From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 00:51:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l218pBwq013860; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:51:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l218p9PR013847; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:51:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:51:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 03:51:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <044b01c75b95$b3eb3760$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2IBKI.A.TYD.9Pp5FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73273 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Indeed in an inertial frame the fictitious force vanishes (from the analysis) > as a force, but it also magically reappears as mass times acceleration, simply > going from the left hand side to the right hand side of F=ma while changing > sign, so the equations remain the same mathematically. > > For example if one analyses the motion of a satellite on a circular orbit in > its rotating frame, the satellite is at rest i.e. the sum of the inwards > gravitational force Fg and of the fictitious outwards centrifugal force mv^2/r > is zero: > > F = m*a > > Fg - m*v^2/r = 0 > > If one now analyses the satellite's motion in the (assumed inertial) frame of > the Earth, the centri_fugal_ force -mv^2/r moves to the right while changing > sign to become m times the centri_petal_ acceleration +v^2/r : > > F = m*a > > Fg = m*v^2/r > > Same equation mathematically, so both approaches yield the same result for > orbital speed as a function of radius as would be expected. mv^2/r is the _derived_ centripetal force on an object rotating relative to an inertial frame of reference. If the Earth is assumed to be rotating then v = 0 for the satellite and the satellite's equation of motion is: GMm/r^2 - ma = 0, and a = GM/r^2 If the satellite is assumed to rotating then the derived force mv^2/r may be assumed to be _functionally equivalent_ to the gravitational force GMm/r^2. Functional equivalency does not necessarily establish physical equivalency. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 03:20:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21BKo7l001059; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 03:20:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21BKmD4001039; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 03:20:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 03:20:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:20:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <1MvECB.A.HQ.Pcr5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73274 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven - I wasn't trying to insult you or Michel, however I was definitely trying to insult Paul after his appallingly arrogant "intelligent thinking beings" crack. Where is the late, great Chris Tinsley when you need him? He could, and did, squash adolescent grandstanding like this in a couple of sentences. I am not in his league. For you Steve and Michel, I will see if I can explain what I meant because what you said appeared to show that you did not get my argument. Firstly, I did not say that there is no THERMAL noise (obviously there is from the Brownian motion) I said that there is no thermally induced effective *voltage* noise when there is no current flowing. Consider the molecular situation in, say, a carbon resistor which is nicely noisy. The Brownian motion of the carbon atoms clearly creates communicated vibrations (thermal noise) but no effective electric noise - one could argue that the electron cloud around the carbon atoms "vibrating" creates a varying electric field around the atom at very close range but this is not going to be a useable or rectifiable voltage. If one argues that there are ionised carbon atoms present and that it is the free electrons that are influenced you might have an argument that by using a naturally very ionised substance it may increase the effect you are looking for. However, the equation is analysed further on in the web site, clearly written by someone familiar with sound engineering, and it goes on to state that the thermal noise is *independent* of the material of the resistor and only depends on the value of the resistance and the absolute temperature. It follows that a material with zero free electrons would have exactly the same thermal noise i.e. purely due to the Brownian motion of the molecules. Steven wrote <> This is where the "sound engineer's" (as opposed to a physicist's) equation comes in. Yes, I do believe it jumps from zero to its full on "thermal noise influencing free electrons" value in exactly the same way as there is no current in a wire until you flick the switch and apply a voltage. When a sound engineer "listens" to a noisy resistor with a "low noise amp" he is, in a Schrödinger's cat sort of way, measuring a system but also affecting that system at the same time - the connection of the amp inputs *will* generate very small currents in the resistor and these will be influenced by the *thermal* noise and this will be the source of the amplified "electrical noise" which Paul hopes to rectify and light his LEDs with prior to powering the entire world with them. He is expecting to cohere random vibrations losslessly and output cohered useable energy capable of doing work at the same energy level. THIS WILL NOT WORK. It is really elementary. Work can be done only by going from a higher level to a lower level of energy - the greater the difference between the levels, the more work can be done. If there is no difference, there can be no work done. Get used to it... Still no free lunch. As far as "intelligent" goes I obviously have a different definition to you. There is a difference between potentially intelligent, which Paul obviously is, and demonstrated intelligence. An example: I wrote to our Government's planning department in 1992 because they were about to uprate building insulation standards. I pointed out that the threat from climate change was so potentially serious that they should set new standards that rendered new buildings carbon-neutral or better because these buildings would be present, and using energy, during the critical times ahead. They wrote back with a fairly tightly argued, articulate piece about how I was talking rubbish and how it should be left to experts in town planning and architects with letters after their name to decide what was best for us all. Thousands of homes and flats have been built since then here with inadequate levels of insulation. Just last week, the very same Department announced that they were going to demolish and rebuild a large estate and make it carbon-neutral because "they were in the vanguard against global warming" - 15 YEARS LATER than they could have been. By your definition these people were, and are, intelligent with impressive qualifications - by mine, they are bloody-minded idiots pretending to be intelligent - they are as intelligent as the straw man in the Wizard of Oz clutching his certificate. I am currently fighting them on another front and they are STILL MAKING the same fundamental mistakes in thinking. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 06:35:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21EZ9Km030224; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:35:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21EZ7gW030215; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:35:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:35:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=B+fxKo0KeetjCzY2+0zo/g1VOwNfKwsfTiHwOWROqF2gOBt63vjMbOcHCETcGA2DGprrc7lVbM+3HxGh1yWKVQ6i5PF7qx3jucB1lYvJcLPNNwcmM5FBDTZiHhQu+ss8TdpxVBIA96oP6VZIAn3DWd6o67tjzyBj6PTyFanC43g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sPA0KRJKvRGOPgEKPHcqrS3WWZKWT+7MSq0dBM/0ONEnYSTdIVPJXRkHk9tlo1DBifvaaUNdmRu52xwZp+5H2aKZQDG+9AGNf9vLZlJi81oyBefZDGHBksCtW52F6u9rpu3dI9G41D4ki/YMGIvZdxScc4pIbATXSIwvb9t2N/0= Message-ID: <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:34:48 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73275 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Nick, Nick Palmer wrote: > Firstly, I did not say that there is no THERMAL noise (obviously there > is from the Brownian motion) I said that there is no thermally induced > effective *voltage* noise when there is no current flowing. If you want to learn about thermal noise then create a Spice simulation circuit. When you feel you have a circuit generating true voltage noise *only* when there's current, lol, then post the Spice circuit. You are in for a surprise when you learn how EE's simulate true voltage noise. BTW, true voltage noise has no upper voltage crest limit. I would suggest LTSpice/SwitcherCAD by Linear technology if you want a nice professional free spice program --> http://ltspice.linear.com/software/swcadiii.exe http://www.linear.com/designtools/softwareRegistration.jsp LTSpice and Linear technology are well viewed in EE world. If you need help creating a voltage noise source then the EE's at LTSpice Yahoo Groups can help --> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LTspice/ Please, just don't tell them what you told us, otherwise they may laugh and ignore you. I read your entire recent post and I am sorry, but your logic is flawed beyond repair. p.s., I've worked with voltage noise sources on Spice programs far too many times in addition to building real circuits. LTSpice is very accurate. Such thermal voltage noise causes real current, which is caused by random electron vibrations. If you truly want to understand the elementary physics behind such noise then write a computer program, which will demonstrate how a peak random source doubles when four random sources are added in series. Random noises caused by all vibrating electrons don't cancel. Thermal noise is real voltage. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Paul wrote: >> I have a question for both Michel Jullian and Stephen A. Lawrence. >> Could you please state if you are presently working on so-called "Free >> Energy" technology? My definition of "Free Energy" obviously would >> not include the initial cost or cost of maintenance. > > No, never said I was. Michel Jullian wrote: > My involvement in new energy is non-public, and concerns principally the electrical and chemical aspects of determining a system's energy balance. I would interpret your answers as, "You are not working on Free Energy technology." Then may I ask "What's your purpose or goal at Vo?" Believe it or not, kind regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 06:42:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21EgEsH032681; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:42:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21EgCxV032663; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:42:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:42:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=OWm4Ar/RR0uKbZEIwHytu3/+SgjfWjNMBtm4AduACjYahTdiXVP0Ckdf+36tc2eLtPZ1uU0KA0QnKOwCGQ/biqJKNzT/1GxZ3NOiBFzDAnVqQzllXS1fLHnHrodwVVf5rMCEVC/lEMJZof5BtfqrZ1fGI97w1osltPNUqr3xbiE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Q6QM60OrWGZ1LPxqCFDeW1rjvA3ecTQLDTcQCCExpdFa/r+Z+i/A3zaPUrUoDRsgTEqW/jC7yrOzNOTw9mCbqxpfyEMyVUohK+8h/gszUUwcx2E8PP5+HOaApN8xV6K3vshHWXW92bbBwEisubyc3WEXFUDGqfARTAIf3JgZZ1Q= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:41:34 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l21EgB9i032643 Resent-Message-ID: <5WaMpC.A.O-H.EZu5FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73276 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mars Melt Status: O X-Status: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html http://snipurl.com/1bozg Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says Kate Ravilious for National Geographic News February 28, 2007 Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory. Earth is currently experiencing rapid warming, which the vast majority of climate scientists says is due to humans pumping huge amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. (Get an overview: "Global Warming Fast Facts".) Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures. In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row. Ackshully, it's the emissions from those rovers. ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 06:50:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21EokM9003009; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:50:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21Eojkv002996; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:50:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:50:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=sq9HSZ82O6crs8bEzlpqzaNX/OVxXiIASdRHzFoGoGAieQ0oiXb7VCbuZzFrN7K/CHNwgTh0k+aHICimzCf2ymPA/kFDfOik3VEDkj2WhSSittDWMrjdyvaf+Kq3yz4m4OjiOcCPK9P6cJmsRDazueO136XLdIzBjTAvADjwfkM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JscA//7jeiJ3gzMqMJCl/HdF5zGI7CXYDujlWvEtJnBvxSpbkmunpICJJTNm617tcNZ3riH8i/VJbFSO3vXnZNs6Zhus/WtYNDqs+iSdeLCeFpK9Nkx9d00YmyVTkoPRohl4My5k3aTGYCojrS3Nvcr7yhonNPfTbdwxl/RtLQ8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:50:42 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Melt In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l21EoinY002981 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73277 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: NASA solar irradiance data: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/stp/SOLAR/IRRADIANCE/irrad.html On 3/1/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html > > http://snipurl.com/1bozg > > Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says > Kate Ravilious > for National Geographic News > > February 28, 2007 > > Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's > recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, > according to one scientist's controversial theory. > > Earth is currently experiencing rapid warming, which the vast majority > of climate scientists says is due to humans pumping huge amounts of > greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. (Get an overview: "Global > Warming Fast Facts".) > > Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures. > > In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions > revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had > been diminishing for three summers in a row. > > > > Ackshully, it's the emissions from those rovers. ;-) > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 06:59:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21EwsuZ016488; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:58:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21Ewqul016466; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:58:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 06:58:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Mars Melt Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:58:47 -0600 Message-ID: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C202AA98FB@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Vo]: Mars Melt Thread-Index: AcdcERAI/IPL+qG8SmyPJ4V0Rh0RuQAAMiog From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2007 14:58:47.0485 (UTC) FILETIME=[1D586ED0:01C75C12] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l21EwpUj016414 Resent-Message-ID: <0RtTsD.A.LBE.sou5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73278 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hope I got this right. If not, it's on Keelynet http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2007/02/quacks-cranks-and-junk-science.html Are global warming skeptics really cranks and kooks? -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:51 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Melt NASA solar irradiance data: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/stp/SOLAR/IRRADIANCE/irrad.html On 3/1/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.ht > ml > > http://snipurl.com/1bozg > > Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says > Kate Ravilious for National Geographic News > > February 28, 2007 > > Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's > recent climate changes have a natural-and not a human-induced-cause, > according to one scientist's controversial theory. > > Earth is currently experiencing rapid warming, which the vast majority > of climate scientists says is due to humans pumping huge amounts of > greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. (Get an overview: "Global > Warming Fast Facts".) > > Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures. > > In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions > revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had > been diminishing for three summers in a row. > > > > Ackshully, it's the emissions from those rovers. ;-) > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 07:15:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21FFlHp014618; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:15:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21FFk3P014599; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:15:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:15:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E6EE1D.9020306@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:15:41 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73279 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > I would interpret your answers as, "You are not working on Free Energy > technology." Then may I ask "What's your purpose or goal at Vo?" What's yours? Just to be annoying? Do you think the group should only be open to people trying to build perpetual motion machines? "alternative energy" is a field which is likely to have a large future impact. Vortex-L has historically been a discussion group primarily for people interested in alternative energy sources and related topics, whether or not they're currently working on building such things. It includes, among other things, photovoltaics, cold fusion, wave energy, and pretty much everything else which operates within the laws of thermodynamics and doesn't involve (much) petroleum. "free energy", which is also commonly discussed on Vortex-L, is mostly pursued by amateur autodidacts searching for the Holy Grail of something for nothing. It includes such wonderful stuff as orgone energy and capacitors which charge themselves, and is generally based on the assumption that mainstream physicists are idiots who never wondered what would happen if a diode and capacitor were hooked up in parallel and left that way for a long time. Sorry if a statement of the truth offends you. But enough flaming. Paul, you call it "blunt", but you're downright offensive at times. I don't think we have anything further to discuss in this area. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 07:26:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21FPvDj017522; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:25:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21FPtMQ017500; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:25:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:25:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=CBYcB1eHSpLeB2vGPzS1tIP3VL195KWhbom9Xfr1U/21wAd/mQZEss7OJFWx47y2RaCA6DJg0N7F8yOrXlwaensc0GRiLJd0pDK9NggO/ydNX4LRk4KDpthx3cYFii6R1ERXuRj7O9s4KxXk1wbuMJrXbUEWj4dEcIjCvYs+Gek= ; X-YMail-OSG: 0pFAvZ0VM1mYGA70SqdKpYhFFOAsuIuycvVVZdKjuRlLfuSvJnZ1cadOCz1uMOA5NwrdV6E3wFmsyuDTiTMnolLW1gXLd0U_x.bS4e.jiYM1o0JJKAW_hWmUIIa_lJ2Ur8wuhQtiXwHjOkI- Message-ID: <45E6F07C.9000005@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:25:48 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Melt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l21FPsnO017465 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73280 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry >... "according to one scientist's controversial theory" ... you forgot to add "bogus theory" Actually just the opposite is happening - with proof - the sun has been cooling noticeably over this exact period, and the dearth of sunspots and solar flux proves that: http://www.dxlc.com/solar/ In fact according to another scientist's controversial theory, we may be headed in the direction of a "Maunder Minimum", ... which... to Meander into cold cynicism, is another solution to the global warming problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_minimum Terry Blanton wrote: > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html > > http://snipurl.com/1bozg > > Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says > Kate Ravilious > for National Geographic News > > February 28, 2007 > > Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's > recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, > according to one scientist's controversial theory. > > Earth is currently experiencing rapid warming, which the vast majority > of climate scientists says is due to humans pumping huge amounts of > greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. (Get an overview: "Global > Warming Fast Facts".) > > Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures. > > In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions > revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had > been diminishing for three summers in a row. > > > > Ackshully, it's the emissions from those rovers. ;-) > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 07:30:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21FUBoN019539; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:30:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21FUAJ2019523; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:30:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:30:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E6F17E.8040707@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:30:06 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <64ocu2p0u8tsfbncntvue62j4hqldm8s9d@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <64ocu2p0u8tsfbncntvue62j4hqldm8s9d@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73281 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:49:54 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> In any case there's also thermal noise in the diode, as I believe I also >> pointed out (though I didn't phrase it that way), and that is surely >> where you should be hunting for the flaw in the design. > [snip] > If you look at the voltage current curve of a diode for both positive and > negative currents, then it is clearly asymmetric. That's why we use them. > In short they convert AC into DC, and it doesn't matter whether the AC is a > perfect sine wave or a random mess. Even the latter will result in at least some > DC component. I agree with you that a diode should produce the same sort of > thermal AC voltage as a resistor, however it should also rectify it's own > voltage. What you say is true, but there is an issue, which is that real diodes are not "perfect diodes": they have a nonzero forward voltage drop. What's more, they're not even "ideal diodes": the forward voltage drop is not constant. As you suggest, let's look at the current curve for a hypothetical "real diode", taken from Senturia and Wedlock, "Electronic Cicuits and Applications", p184 in my copy. It's given as i = I_S(e^(qv/kT) - 1) where I_S, q, and k are constants. The Taylor series in v for values near 0 is i ~ v * I_S * (q/kT) + v^2 * I_S * (q/kT)^2/2 + order(v^3) At very low voltages, such as noise produces, we can ignore the square term and all higher order terms, and the diode "looks" linear, just like a resistor. Furthermore, if we look at the square term, we see that it's proportional to the inverse square of the temperature -- the diode gets more "linear-looking" at 0 volts as the temperature (and, hence, noise magnitude) increase. I don't pretend to be able to analyze this situation in detail, but it appears to me, from the above formula, that for any realistic level of noise-induced charge on a cap hooked up across the diode, the charge is going to leak away through the diode long before the next probabilistic noise crest of sufficient magnitude to charge it up any farther comes along. > IOW a diode connected across a capacitor should eventually charge the capacitor, > if it's thermal voltage is current independent. But the more charge you get, the longer you have to wait for another noise "pulse" which exceeds that voltage, and the longer you have for the charge you already had accumulated to leak away through the diode. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, > Cooperation (communism) provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 07:36:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21Fac03005296; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:36:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21FaaQC005280; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:36:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:36:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QDuKf+1T5nXTuNWSzqE2JEUoLeGgodlJpPvdlZjh2T2MXOdePkXnMMrD+G0/C7v2iVeO2EsOdexb/o4olVJTN6zgAOlgK9y6VxPHxDU86vMgqJU+40S3uGJbvhTnm5ad8EfsWf95WQVPbotnhaGPV2B/FPZiNBO9knVknYsoERI= ; X-YMail-OSG: Y64KpEUVM1lBmVrzrFvTNG7xN76inBY_nDvctxdYm3nw9bPViqRx49RueA4Ts_lYJwSID3.mSoEMVYzN_d.0SbtC5GeiwslMTpfamnoPYYVI80ffVqdgjNDc_UGIIDpdfpjRlJ0RgUpc_uw- Message-ID: <45E6F2FE.1050701@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:36:30 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <45E6EE1D.9020306@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E6EE1D.9020306@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73282 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Thermodynamics Status: O X-Status: If the curious would dump the silly rhetoric, take a moment to visit and study the excellent site of Professor Kowalski, they would discover that Michel Julian is, shall we opine metaphorically: knee deep into cold fusion... ... and we on Vo should be grateful for his expert opinions on any related subject, even if we do not agree with them. http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 07:43:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21Fgu4Q026176; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:42:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21FgtQL026160; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:42:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:42:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E6F477.1090206@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:42:47 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73283 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > Steven - I wasn't trying to insult you or Michel, however I was > definitely trying to insult Paul after his appallingly arrogant > "intelligent thinking beings" crack. Where is the late, great Chris > Tinsley when you need him? He could, and did, squash adolescent > grandstanding like this in a couple of sentences. I am not in his > league. For you Steve and Michel, I will see if I can explain what I > meant because what you said appeared to show that you did not get my > argument. > > Firstly, I did not say that there is no THERMAL noise (obviously there > is from the Brownian motion) I said that there is no thermally induced > effective *voltage* noise when there is no current flowing. Consider the > molecular situation in, say, a carbon resistor which is nicely noisy. > The Brownian motion of the carbon atoms clearly creates communicated > vibrations (thermal noise) but no effective electric noise - one could > argue that the electron cloud around the carbon atoms "vibrating" > creates a varying electric field around the atom at very close range but > this is not going to be a useable or rectifiable voltage. > If one argues that there are ionised carbon atoms present and that it is > the free electrons that are influenced you might have an argument that > by using a naturally very ionised substance it may increase the effect > you are looking for. However, the equation is analysed further on in > the web site, clearly written by someone familiar with sound > engineering, and it goes on to state that the thermal noise is > *independent* of the material of the resistor and only depends on the > value of the resistance and the absolute temperature. It follows that a > material with zero free electrons would have exactly the same thermal > noise i.e. purely due to the Brownian motion of the molecules. Thanks for the additional explanation; in fact, I'm still not sure I actually "got it". I've tried the experiment of amplifying and "listening to" a resistor with no current through it in the past, in the hope of actually seeing a noise signature of some sort, and never found anything, but there could have been a number of explanations for that, of course (starting with my use of a noisy opamp). This is a fascinating subject IMHO but I'm going to have to find some time to put more thought into it before I can say anything further that is ... ahem ... "intelligent"... > Steven wrote > < value" as soon as the current goes from exactly 0 to, say, 1 > fempto-pico-amp. > the formula given in an earlier post, with which you did not disagree, > certainly does not describe something which > decreases with current. If it just _cuts_ _off_ at zero current, that > would be very strange behavior indeed! >> > > This is where the "sound engineer's" (as opposed to a physicist's) > equation comes in. Yes, I do believe it jumps from zero to its full on > "thermal noise influencing free electrons" value in exactly the same way > as there is no current in a wire until you flick the switch and apply a > voltage. Well.... the current through the wire, in the sound engineer's world, goes up linearly with the voltage dropped by the wire. It would be nice if the sound engineer's formula for noise showed _some_ dependence on the current or voltage, if the noise isn't also present at zero volts! I have problems with formulas describing physical situations which are discontinuous at zero -- it typically means something significant got left out (as, come to think of it, I think you already said). > When a sound engineer "listens" to a noisy resistor with a "low > noise amp" he is, in a Schrödinger's cat sort of way, measuring a system > but also affecting that system at the same time - the connection of the > amp inputs *will* generate very small currents in the resistor and these > will be influenced by the *thermal* noise and this will be the source of > the amplified "electrical noise" which Paul hopes to rectify and light > his LEDs with prior to powering the entire world with them. He is > expecting to cohere random vibrations losslessly and output cohered > useable energy capable of doing work at the same energy level. THIS WILL > NOT WORK. Yeah, well, right, no disagreement there, and I don't have a lot to add on the discussion of "intelligence", either... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 08:00:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21G03k1003324; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:00:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21FqcGY000719; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:52:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 07:52:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GjUnuGXBW2k/KfmULYu6Sx8p+44pxaoRwvHoMlIddGQjigBygr7WSFaE6YxeuSRc79JjdikC7D/vEWLDEaRpqL7suwhxHwvJveXFBGzf150oIR9Rj7aN7iC06JtNHxjRHpcfwpPKdQU65n0BuaxgOvDjmxs6stPH0O5YIOeWOwI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sgUa+NcsS+423KmwQxhOp7LTNW4TS8jcVD9FRLDtBdBNQaFg9rtp42LdIHCQPy1WV7kCDX1BNOKYGUPgZhkuIrANlemxAaKKx5C0rQHXZvETcmTOewo6xsmgwVsZ6nziM+I6uyk2m+gr8M3aQLUDxdRm5k9sbvdjegBgNeq4Fo4= Message-ID: <45E6F6B1.8000600@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 07:52:17 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <45E6EE1D.9020306@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E6EE1D.9020306@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73284 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >> >> I would interpret your answers as, "You are not working on Free Energy >> technology." Then may I ask "What's your purpose or goal at Vo?" > > What's yours? Just to be annoying? > > Do you think the group should only be open to people trying to build > perpetual motion machines? > > "alternative energy" is a field which is likely to have a large future > impact. Vortex-L has historically been a discussion group primarily for > people interested in alternative energy sources and related topics, > whether or not they're currently working on building such things. It > includes, among other things, photovoltaics, cold fusion, wave energy, > and pretty much everything else which operates within the laws of > thermodynamics and doesn't involve (much) petroleum. > > "free energy", which is also commonly discussed on Vortex-L, is mostly > pursued by amateur autodidacts searching for the Holy Grail of something > for nothing. It includes such wonderful stuff as orgone energy and > capacitors which charge themselves, and is generally based on the > assumption that mainstream physicists are idiots who never wondered what > would happen if a diode and capacitor were hooked up in parallel and > left that way for a long time. I'm opposed to debunkers ... scientists who focus on the negative, canceling out what they so deem as ignorance, hitting the forums while attempting to put an end to what they believe is false. I know of debunkers with hidden agendas. > Sorry if a statement of the truth offends you. I'm a person ruled by mental logic, not sensitive emotions. > But enough flaming. Paul, you call it "blunt", but you're downright > offensive at times. I don't think we have anything further to discuss > in this area. Send me a private email quoting my "offense" words, but first analyze them in a calm state of being. Hopefully then you'll begin to see my words without emotions. It's only flaming because people are so easily hurt by words and their emotions get all riled up. In person you could stand before me while shouting and calling me every nasty name in the book and I would only express compassion for you. A child wants their parents to be nice and give them toys and so forth. A child dislikes being punished. I'm not your parent or superior, but often compassion is about telling the truth, not dancing around another persons emotions to avoid hurting their ego or feelings. There would be no wars in a world of 7 billion Paul Lowrance's. Sorry if you feel I say things to hurt you, but I do not. Do you know the say, "No pain, no gain." Pain is what one makes of it. OK, enough of this. Lets take this up in private, if you wish. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 08:11:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21GBUK3008176; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:11:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21GBSVw008143; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:11:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:11:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q69esCoesa02gvF+pSfRiAubdpFZVBmYw8uRitXNZkyolgRdvDVBQPkwueJCKBmosBsT4dCsnWjmGr5iFfGu7gka9j7mV3mVqqilUIONHcq3LiYjBQUJ6Go2VyMcvxyy6loZ/26GoE5zTa8u7OuROxGJARTsdT80PDgSxTU7NUc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oBGP3+M6Ri30AFMZixJDz9qhmzupvPGAV4NSEkiTZkT5rHaXLv/DB+mR/ciVg8NmgTUkQpzOHLSMVPywCAFn2/9F2XBFhaOT/kXz/9dxK9ZxmlexVEsxMVk94UrNtflAhmx7b2W3dOHcfb2d3Kz6t1ozpbDfs/h8+hPeTHywWvA= Message-ID: <45E6FB1C.3030004@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:11:08 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <45E6EE1D.9020306@pobox.com> <45E6F2FE.1050701@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45E6F2FE.1050701@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73285 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > If the curious would dump the silly rhetoric, take a moment to visit and > study the excellent site of Professor Kowalski, they would discover that > Michel Julian is, shall we opine metaphorically: knee deep into cold > fusion... ... and we on Vo should be grateful for his expert opinions > on any related subject, even if we do not agree with them. > > http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/ I see nothing silly about seeking truth. If what you say is true then good for you for being direct (saving time) and posting the link. I see Michel Jullian's name throughout threads, and will presume you are correct in that he's working on Cold Fusion and supports "Free Energy" research. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 08:21:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21GLiY6012779; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:21:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21GLgvY012746; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:21:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 08:21:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3Q/IkMNqvR3gpiKqEdun60yx11BOeoXkKHz76UVL42Bw2vnqS0epu21KjGfu6tPAhHISYf9T2W/TFar7eYckPq9Y8FavkbNaQktOBns6WgLJKGJBFhqBD6q3qtuVDt4fDBl1TIMeKzgS4QP3Fj7HDNa9qKFX1Cv3tiajLgC3Zek= ; X-YMail-OSG: XspHRswVM1nIW.9HRZ8byVtvU4T.lq9zkI2BzEkpLj0wNBo1CCpcWR7LBSWzpLfEL.Ub5tXHQ_A9TgPuNeUulK_oU2yQm4gkElsjDYB0VUdpSaYao.EwGg84qgtk7i4JQullRl7L9OrMJg-- Message-ID: <45E6FD8F.1090201@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:21:35 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20299C33C@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73286 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Hydrogen Outta Nowhere? Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/02/a_history_of_dark_matter.html > An alternative explanation is that environmental Hydrinos leak into the > container between the atoms of the solid where they are converted into Hydrogen > by the action of energetic electrons in the arc. An most interesting dual-experiment, from the perspective of hydrino science (assuming there is such a beast) ... and especially with a goal of getting a rough idea of the flux of solar derived neutrinos, would be to compare the same experiment when run at midday and high altitude with a run taken at nighttime underground, or at least in a cellar. Solar derived hyrdino-hydride is charged negatively, and not neutral, but is so small that it can migrate through any solid material with relative ease, unless that material has a strong negative near-field. This species is arguably the largest component of hydrino flux from the solar wind, yet some percentage could migrate through any container, especially a grounded metal container functioning as a electron filled solenoid, since the exterior capacitive effect (+) of the interior charge (-) would still attract when gorunded, and then the hydriding electron can be removed into the valence band and the Hy migrates inward. This is something that Mills should be doing ... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 09:13:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21HD1ho008765; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:13:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21HCuwt008738; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:12:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:12:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <050801c75c24$d81e7040$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <45E6EE1D.9020306@pobox.com> <45E6F2FE.1050701@pacbell.net> <45E6FB1C.3030004@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:12:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l21HCtwP008724 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73287 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul on the pretense of saving your time and energy with your "bluntness" you are wasting everybody else's, when they obviously could be put to much better use. I don't consider CF as "free energy", and I am not an expert either. My contributions to the field are only tools and proposals which might help to establish indisputability of excess heat claims in CF or other desktop fusion experiments, nothing fundamental. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Thermodynamics ... > name throughout threads, and will presume you are correct in that he's working > on Cold Fusion and supports "Free Energy" research. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 09:58:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21HwbO8025681; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:58:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21HwaBs025672; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:58:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 09:58:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E71428.6050802@usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:58:00 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73288 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ev Gray and Peter LInderman Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; The posting on the Ev Gray motor motivated me to check the link. When I noticed that it was Sterling Allen's website, I sent him the email below, and recieved the following reply. I have previously posted my criticisms of the vaporware merchant Peter Linderman - no - no Dear Sterling; Someone posted the link to your Ev Gray Motor page on Vortex-L. Have you ever tested a working model? Have you ever seen Peter Linderman build any working models? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 11:08:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21J8hph018823; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:08:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21J8fIR018809; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:08:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:08:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=R4Vi9EGV1SwgYKm7AYmxh4aV4lLCZqbYyjyiCu4U6eBjYYmzg94Ap51Bv1FIaw8IGvh3XoHF9kYyRY+fz4ygZ5gD39sC2lhSgGnPa2mpcofJdxejIA3qO/K/JuMlMERAxvvOy/7X2wWdXtUTJWphFTYsm5kzkhEXAPCCm+O5GHY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ilo2UxbwNB0GKkEv/Fsng11+cHEAPaXjDOOZqBlmK4wddotc4dRAe/MzH26StmDtcvzvSBe7m7CNich5/JberMKUJTXXvLVm3e2Uof3wSXQnmXlekMf4/WAB0OI1bNPJuJsUW9s68DcVZOfgbE0SVV6lJYUiC9pVVu+QO35R0UQ= Message-ID: <45E724A8.7050702@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:08:24 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ev Gray and Peter LInderman References: <45E71428.6050802@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <45E71428.6050802@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6uU_lC.A.1lE.5Sy5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73289 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Vortexians; > > The posting on the Ev Gray motor motivated me to check the link. When I > noticed that it was Sterling Allen's website, I sent him the email > below, and recieved the following reply. I have previously posted my > criticisms of the vaporware merchant Peter Linderman > > - no > - no > > Dear Sterling; > > Someone posted the link to your Ev Gray Motor page on Vortex-L. Have you > ever tested a working model? Have you ever seen Peter Linderman build > any working models? Hi Thomas, The following constructive criticism is not directed toward you. Sterling's wiki is open source for all researchers to display their work. Sterling has very little to do with what's posted on his wiki so long as it's related to the site. I have not seen any evidence to prove or disprove E.V. Grays motor, but his claims of the motor becoming cold catches my attention. It's worth investigating. From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people? I've always found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight. It's amazing how skeptics and debunkers cannot see the obvious. It's highly unlikely a person will accomplish something they disbelieve. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 11:19:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21JIuii026711; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:18:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21JIrl2026695; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:18:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:18:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=TzEusXGPCbz4bZfG8cuXV37zVFudZq+fU+RS1iEbUiBaM5kx50gfCZjYy9TXzHd9UgZW0BFd/tT9BDsj0i0vnKeQO/j9RR0q6cYqxiX3tRU3LTPg90iTdVXhdM+Wa4H+IY6oQhUKHBVtsBBkWurGycOmhrULNoHQ240tacieycE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rZ/co/+/zMO3Ifr0FK/7bTra52UaKmIQd7nS7q8Vr1J/DqhmsGNLqIEN+SOI5eHv+e5uSxmX8Nhva4Q6349qI9o94xJ1MpXs1rdnFpO5mzl9hiENInuXDi+pHiV4eCmfUW/dADHobFO5sTwXwrUTlgK7zTz897BwuatMTSj3s8w= Message-ID: <45E7270B.7060503@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:18:35 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <45E6EE1D.9020306@pobox.com> <45E6F2FE.1050701@pacbell.net> <45E6FB1C.3030004@gmail.com> <050801c75c24$d81e7040$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <050801c75c24$d81e7040$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73290 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > I don't consider CF as "free energy", --- Why not? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 11:29:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21JTD9T005050; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:29:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21JTBEj005019; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:29:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:29:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=r2I3J5ANpjc6ycDYOoRapjJ1rBiWbn5ikxQjsy6dMA3gBH/oIMh1sehqfMP69DGL7Kaa1vz/MgV4aKgKBYM+wZwbs7LPxydiuLmgGrskMHi77uaj2G45xZb9z12rC5HnvkHK+Bxhra15dAetWvjBNQpx8ZdRsRbxB0PVApOIFPk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fNCx0b3msNjP+ykVF1fd88d2O0ocrOP39A6NSn9kc6b0TTth2+SJSptJfE9wSMH8FOd1t9JCAIzQfg1RmpDl0N574+BiM5BB0HwxDaxJsRKrzoGNjfOrhCl59LQI9UaNGHzj4+mU91tot8m4gO765pvWOLeXULDX9eEbjgvURo4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:29:09 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ev Gray and Peter LInderman In-Reply-To: <45E724A8.7050702@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E71428.6050802@usfamily.net> <45E724A8.7050702@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73291 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/1/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people? I've always > found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight. Personally, I've always wondered why we needed such a big glass. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 11:39:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21JcrCW006358; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:38:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21Jcr05006339; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:38:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:38:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=fQ2UoXpUph3pkarCqnXKQ9zZzrZwlUW7uxkkxPVIIO/7D36s3FoY2lsu2uPecfkE5QFUAGWsv2tvGNGDXhtfNs36eVHxwhIcjCEVh0BSBWDeFjXx3fLhKOqPy/Rnq/JVdU+HNSTj9YfZXKYW/i8Dn1ZUY2TDz4PqWb23bB56TUw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=L6Fnkq+2mXFLLBX8rJMMgqZZM8eddu5VLR+53R2rSq0UM6pfUfgBQrqW3+/+Ttu/8eRhX5U0e68JsblqG4rvpykziMCrdlx0bJDiP4qKxTK6Fjb0s5McMWYaCUxbb+HPL9ILfRMBUqd9El6B7/MfNTouzcWadybaMNi9AGIiD14= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:38:47 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73292 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Aliens Claim Sir Branson's Prize Status: O X-Status: http://physorg.com/news91888237.html UFO science key to halting climate change: former Canadian defense minister A former Canadian defense minister is demanding governments worldwide disclose and use secret alien technologies obtained in alleged UFO crashes to stem climate change, a local paper said Wednesday. "I would like to see what (alien) technology there might be that could eliminate the burning of fossil fuels within a generation ... that could be a way to save our planet," Paul Hellyer, 83, told the Ottawa Citizen. I have it good authority that GW is caused by a profound lack of pirates: http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/ Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 11:39:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21JcxQu011498; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:38:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21JcwLq011484; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:38:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:38:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E72BCB.2070408@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:38:51 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ev Gray and Peter LInderman References: <45E71428.6050802@usfamily.net> <45E724A8.7050702@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-23GKC.A.YzC.Rvy5FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73293 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/1/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > >> From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people? >> I've always >> found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight. > > Personally, I've always wondered why we needed such a big glass. ;-) To hold all the egos, of course! :-) > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 12:02:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21K2jcr020237; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:02:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21K2hl1020208; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:02:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:02:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E7315F.4050307@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:02:39 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aliens Claim Sir Branson's Prize References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8piNPC.A.o7E.jFz5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73294 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > http://physorg.com/news91888237.html > > UFO science key to halting climate change: former Canadian defense minister > > A former Canadian defense minister is demanding governments worldwide > disclose and use secret alien technologies obtained in alleged UFO > crashes to stem climate change, a local paper said Wednesday. Jeeze this is awful! They're going to pick out, very specifically, the technology used in UFOs which _crashed_! This guarantees we'll be doing something wrong. Now, if we could only get the aliens in the ones that _didn't_ crash to tell us how they do stuff, that might actually provide a sensible path forward. > > "I would like to see what (alien) technology there might be that could > eliminate the burning of fossil fuels within a generation ... that > could be a way to save our planet," Paul Hellyer, 83, told the Ottawa > Citizen. > > > > I have it good authority that GW is caused by a profound lack of pirates: > > http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/ Excellent link! Thanks! :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 12:27:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21KRDD8032099; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:27:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21KRBbe032075; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:27:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:27:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:28:17 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ev Gray and Peter LInderman In-reply-to: <45E724A8.7050702@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <5PxlmB.A.H1H.ecz5FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73295 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people? I've always > found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight. It's amazing > how > skeptics and debunkers cannot see the obvious. It's highly unlikely a person > will accomplish something they disbelieve. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > Permit me to misquote Albert Einstein... "Subtle is the Lord, but obvious she is not." Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 12:48:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21KmV2D012357; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:48:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21KmUdc012345; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:48:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:48:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=aH/c/g3yfzq/ZgcAAtFfrDJWY4udfA1/FD6MbSJVlfQOGqkMMgcK5QDJENBJVpaX3QbXco16KHsu8U819Pp0p0XLdCzCo4Jey0/MRa0/JjmFrwlZ5jiczdJfXwaMZiXLpVFemP871fPu6jnNj0XPlEEFpaZZMfKNnuwhmW6dXaI= ; X-YMail-OSG: OJuHf40VM1lFwapZQPhuNszlFownfkHs6ffnRpQIyTWoGI_hgez7o6ql0iVAnGzC0C42mJ0E10XvJKmceESnKEjmZzcAs90FzoZ5BgH3q7j78gS5oXWyfLwhQLBnYd2O9NCzQaDVOe7CnnI- Message-ID: <45E73C19.2010308@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:48:25 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73296 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Solar cycles & GW Status: O X-Status: Nice chart of "freezes" on Wiki, and it shows a ~200 year cycle. I get the shivers just thinking about the cosmic repercussions.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon14_with_activity_labels.svg Then there is the 2,000-2,300 year Hallsatt cycle. These are subsets of the Schwabe cycle, the eleven-year cycle of sunspot activity. That cycle is also associated with the reversal of the solar magnetic polarity, through the Hale 22 year cycle -which is associated with longer reversals in earth's polarity. However, according to the Principia and the Wholly Chao, this really is closer to a 23 year cycle [insert smiley here] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Discordia The Schwabe solar cycle is not strictly 11 years long; it has been as short as 9 years and as long as 14 years in recent years. Nevertheless, statistical predictions of weather, based on these patterns can be made, subject to the additional factor of human activity. The data suggests a gradual cooling during the next few centuries with intermittent minor warmups and a return to another "Little Ice Age" as early as 2100 although the best guess is two further cycles from that. There is weak evidence for a quasi-periodic variation in the sunspot cycle amplitudes with a period of about 90 years, suggesting a maximum sunspot occurs in three years 2010. I would guess two years later! If we get through that crisis - not forgetting the importance of the year 2012 in the Maya Calendar, which by the way is NOT for a natural catastrophe, necessarily - it just marks the start of another long B'ak'tun cycle BUT surprisingly it jives with statistical analysis which suggests that we may well get a pole reversal on earth then - with unknown consequences - except that North and South Carolina (or North and South Dakota etc.) will need to switch names - and Santa will have much further to travel, so look for less presents under the tree ... Now- how did the Maya get that kind of info? ... and don't say from the illuminati, or Lord-High-Everything-Else, or Skull-and-Bones etc... heck it has to be from aliens who know that our sun has a companion. http://www.physorg.com/news65117758.html Jones Yes, it is true that the year 2012 is claimed to be a great time of spiritual transformation or apocalypse -- depending on how many books the new-age author hopes to sell. The completion of the thirteenth B'ak'tun cycle in the Long Count of the Maya calendar occurs on December 21, 2012, and by the widely held reckoning on the lecture circuit -- this means to some (mostly wonkettes and reactionaries) that there will be a major political change in the old world order, and the emergence of the NWO. ...coinciding, of course, with the start of Barak's second term in office, and his rise in anti-status, so to speak - according to the far-right alarmists, many of whom get their info straight from "the source" as does the current grand poobah. http://wonkette.com/politics/barack-obama/meet-the-antichrist-209549.php Methinks that, politics aside, it will only be a pole reversal - but that could mean pretty major changes ... yet a bonanza for Map-Makers everywhere. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 14:31:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21MVYV9024128; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:31:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21MVSPP024096; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:31:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:31:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ezffqCB2ExFOvOQZW9dj6s60GqmpZjl0ixruZBM1UaEuCmnc92DDJH5emMHtlyDj8Yz4AFq/0spFV+Mw1OQ4HFwfn0qlR1wLG3PtCiHU1T3ZPv2Wil3NXpNAa2VdJcu2tZcPe5ba48rXnhw9m0WorP0aWO6khstVpeoMvQiFKKQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GAoMtbP+N+YE9kgFgKgngfn0vMwCQ58C7tAUdTYZgVWaeuOccAdsjwpUlHG+ZnrOouSmQbQ1/P5FSrLozovUqeziKQT3GPmDIdA8dnWhV1gawqLJg/61ufYLZvAZmIoWgXDE/fUPNHgR0hXut742C7Ss99zPu2ZRai2lVN0uU04= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:31:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aliens Claim Sir Branson's Prize In-Reply-To: <45E7315F.4050307@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E7315F.4050307@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73297 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/1/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Jeeze this is awful! They're going to pick out, very specifically, the > technology used in UFOs which _crashed_! This guarantees we'll be doing > something wrong. Well, duh! How is this worse than E85 or H2? ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 14:33:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21MXc79024933; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:33:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21MXadn024905; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:33:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:33:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=k0ZCNeginaMNEEbRIc1uT8/Da/IejZHfpk2GCjQFBVcoouH4JLZ5w6QLncnjElHXNmvRV27yQsB3yNg6yS6RlLa8RE6QeBXVM/rWG8XVcfu3w+wZ5BxO2Xb6mVNw71y+T7xjYG49GwNyStJhvoK9F94kWTd2tdHfEz4yQfzxELY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=D6BHgQrQb0/lD/BL9ydx4UiXtb5APNJPtUWaKFqgJ+GYBPQLO7IC506wvFGWufeNWsi2pUGv7OgWg34IvuYltqJx7MFr1NpWdUHvS6RjcR93oHypQQb0GXXM9P05vsAErCVfzFZoYP1Sb+mb418ZqO/fEnH13E1AuW/3GBmej2M= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:33:33 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ev Gray and Peter LInderman In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E724A8.7050702@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73298 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/1/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > "Subtle is the Lord, but obvious she is not." Hail Eris! http://www.principiadiscordia.com/downloads/crazy1024.jpg Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 14:36:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l21MafqB026682; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:36:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l21MaeaS026665; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:36:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:36:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fTt8+3TTs+BJf1+05tOSi7L3EW7KOs5arQHL/swFBwBCtJh9uMQkrciXCr9s0HJhhW4AG8TjQdODO4cwkCqyalJxUdxaTjoAw09dGygmUzQRTfT4hbnYQpppuytQ+TB2JlpJBIJQw7JW+d6ujQHlKdTjpF3eZub/jT/w3DweaRY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eZqH0CMSotyRQIhcnpapUtdviDPmImbWn3poeGmBYgpAasasBVb6UtGD2nHTfHIVKI4V2GNnutfCkisVzXLQTY30d0B6oBpP8v2MsWWzFvjJMoKGUk3+arEYm70rcJjXq1Xsu3VOfxSwNWiBVXisr9QSBddaWH+IdNcHne4wkDg= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:36:33 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Solar cycles & GW In-Reply-To: <45E73C19.2010308@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E73C19.2010308@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73299 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/1/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Methinks that, politics aside, it will only be a pole reversal - but > that could mean pretty major changes ... yet a bonanza for Map-Makers > everywhere. Not to mention migratory birds. Hail Eris? Terry PS or "Hell, Eris!" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 17:08:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2218EHT011520; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:08:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2218Ams011491; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:08:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:08:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:09:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ev Gray and Peter LInderman In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73300 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/1/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > >> "Subtle is the Lord, but obvious she is not." > > Hail Eris! > > http://www.principiadiscordia.com/downloads/crazy1024.jpg > > Terry > I should have written, "Subtle is the Lord, but she is not crazy." as a counter point to Einstein's "Subtle is the Lord, but he is not malicious." Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 17:20:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l221K5aq016590; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:20:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l221K4Qj016568; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:20:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:20:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 01:19:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73301 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul, you seem to think that just because you have used a computer modelling program (LT Spice) that it's predictions are necessarily reality. If the initial assumptions and parameters that were modelled and programmed in are in error it won't be of much use to help us in the area we are looking at. Your EE friends have never, in a real situation, needed to know or even been able to measure the thermally generated voltage noise when there is *no* current of any description, AC or DC, passing though the resistor. Ideally, it could be measured, if it exists, but in the real world there is no ideal instrument. I don't care if your EE friends lol at this - that would just show they don't fully understand what they are dealing with. Your point about several random sources adding up and "BTW, true voltage noise has no upper voltage crest" yet again sabotages your position. By analogy, looking at random thermal molecular vibrations (heat) you might as well say that temperature is only a statistical average - that there exists all temperatures of particles in the spoon - that some in a room temperature teaspoon are at a notional 5,000,000 degreesC. Just try using this spoon to boil a cuppa though - you'll have a bloody long wait for your tea if you wait for a number of random sources to align and give you useable heat above ambient temperature. Let's cut to the chase. Build one of these diode/resistor/LED devices that unequivocally generates significant, useable cohered output - such as photons of a frequency and magnitude sufficient to cause a PV cell to generate, say, 1 continuous watt using only ambient room temperature heat without a lower temperature sink (to give the difference in energy levels that is essential to create work) and I will give you £1,000. Of course once you have done this, then the world will also beat a path to your door but I suspect that hell will freeze over first. You are one amongst countless free energy dreamers - they failed - you will fail too. Your hand waving when pinned down is nowhere near as impressive as such masters of the art as Joseph Newman and Dennis Lee or Joe Champion. BTW, I really think people who use the glass half full/empty "witticism" are half wits. P.S. Cold fusion is nothing like the free energy quest that has deluded many thousands (however, I'm still hoping Terry Blanton's pet magmo project might work!). CF almost certainly generates energy by converting mass into energy, just in a different situation with different conditions to classic fusion and fission. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 20:38:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l224cUpu031495; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:38:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l224cTxp031485; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:38:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:38:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E7AA3F.9090805@usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 22:38:23 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Melt References: <45E6F07C.9000005@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45E6F07C.9000005@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73302 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Terry > > In fact according to another scientist's controversial theory, we may > be headed in the direction of a "Maunder Minimum", > > ... which... to Meander into cold cynicism, is another solution to the > global warming problem. I have previously mentioned Avery and Singer's book, Unstopable Global Warming Every 1500 Years. They make the point that the Vikings it called Greenland for a reason, and their colony was subsequently frozen out. The Romans grew wine grapes in England. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 22:30:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l226Tu7L016410; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:29:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l226Tp8Q016362; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:29:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:29:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E7C458.9000300@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:29:44 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73303 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote >From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people? I've always found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight. It's amazing how skeptics and debunkers cannot see the obvious. It's highly unlikely a person will accomplish something they disbelieve. IMHO, it's better to take into consideration the whole truth, warts and all. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 23:39:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l227dZqs012914; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 23:39:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l227dXJ4012901; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 23:39:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 23:39:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DrCygD7ncnbSVGdFzEYKc3FuAZ2ws51nw/3bqRaP+dQMf0SwDKsf++Lsvlnn6s2oq2vguySkP1N1TSPyRGK8jB7KONjhePQsLvLtKYKPWSKAIurMOfmcLLp2OxQXX+kqAI9hE09NH9VEhkASxzrS8v94i5eWpgVqjAYK/QKmgnU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=O1f5nztYWjB7NoVZKG94ufBf+fvx4XG6SNq641JVC81HPIqWPN123Y8jdEOton0VkQUCZR9F2AlAVOt0BKQyLNzyOSIN/wy8tIBMXaDF8IIZEcfqqgmUQKineyutjYRLYyZBLjx8RpOnF9gd5q/6tnB2IU/7aG2Sl9B6M2eEZzo= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 20:39:33 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45E7C458.9000300@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_81503_8939940.1172821173398" References: <45E7C458.9000300@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: <9091SC.A.dJD.1S95FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73304 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_81503_8939940.1172821173398 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm a 'we have the perfect amount of water and just an abundance of glass' person myself. Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the glass or emptying it? On 3/2/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > Paul Lowrance wrote > > From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people? I've > always found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight. It's > amazing how skeptics and debunkers cannot see the obvious. It's highly > unlikely a person will accomplish something they disbelieve. > > IMHO, it's better to take into consideration the whole truth, warts and > all. > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > ------=_Part_81503_8939940.1172821173398 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm a 'we have the perfect amount of water and just an abundance of glass' person myself.

Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the glass or emptying it?

On 3/2/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Paul Lowrance wrote

From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people?   I've always found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight.  It's amazing how skeptics and debunkers cannot see the obvious.  It's highly unlikely a person will accomplish something they disbelieve.

IMHO, it's better to take into consideration the whole truth, warts and all.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


------=_Part_81503_8939940.1172821173398-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 00:24:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l228OAQI031685; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 00:24:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l228O9fE031673; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 00:24:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 00:24:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <059b01c75ca4$23d25f90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E7C458.9000300@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:24:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l228O82g031658 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73305 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excellent reasoning John :) Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing us to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of not wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question of believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty ... > Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the > glass or emptying it? ... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 04:41:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22CfUBs018238; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 04:41:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22CfS9a018221; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 04:41:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 04:41:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,241,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="4304928:sNHT21611485" Message-ID: <45E81B7B.8040100@teksavvy.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 07:41:31 -0500 From: peatbog User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070104) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mars Melt References: <45E6F07C.9000005@pacbell.net> <45E7AA3F.9090805@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <45E7AA3F.9090805@usfamily.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73306 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> Terry >> >> In fact according to another scientist's controversial theory, we may >> be headed in the direction of a "Maunder Minimum", >> >> ... which... to Meander into cold cynicism, is another solution to the >> global warming problem. > > > > I have previously mentioned Avery and Singer's book, Unstopable Global > Warming Every 1500 Years. They make the point that the Vikings it called > Greenland for a reason, and their colony was subsequently frozen out. > The Romans grew wine grapes in England. With all that warm weather, were sea levels higher? Was half of present-day London under water? > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 05:50:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22Do3Bd017498; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 05:50:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22Dnw3m017429; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 05:49:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 05:49:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:49:36 -0600 Message-ID: <006f01c75cd1$a7c8e670$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C75C9F.5D2E7670" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acdcnm3LpgppyAL3RgyTrBp+zk9KeAAMs6hw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73307 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C75C9F.5D2E7670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, The answer is easier obtained by taking two glasses, one full and one empty, and then taking half of each. If a glass is already empty, taking half of it doesn't fill it. It only makes sense to take half of a full glass. Dave _____ From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:40 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty I'm a 'we have the perfect amount of water and just an abundance of glass' person myself. Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the glass or emptying it? On 3/2/07, thomas malloy wrote: Paul Lowrance wrote >From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people? I've always found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight. It's amazing how skeptics and debunkers cannot see the obvious. It's highly unlikely a person will accomplish something they disbelieve. IMHO, it's better to take into consideration the whole truth, warts and all. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C75C9F.5D2E7670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = John,

 

The answer is easier obtained by = taking two glasses, one full and one empty, and then taking half of each.  = If a glass is already empty, taking half of it doesn’t fill it.  It only = makes sense to take half of a full glass.

 

Dave

 

From: John = Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, = 2007 1:40 AM
To: = vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half = full or half empty

 

I'm a 'we have = the perfect amount of water and just an abundance of glass' person = myself.

Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling = the glass or emptying it?

On 3/2/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:

Paul Lowrance = wrote

>From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people?   I've always found "Glass half full" people = to have much farther foresight.  It's amazing how skeptics and = debunkers cannot see the obvious.  It's highly unlikely a person will accomplish something they disbelieve.

IMHO, it's better to take into consideration the whole truth, warts and = all.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html<= /a> - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.htm= l - $19.99/mo! ---

 

------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C75C9F.5D2E7670-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 06:04:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22E4l55022480; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:04:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22E4jjS022464; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:04:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:04:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZTOt8NNlBJqHrKicT6ocmEWghw5wdDWtt+tHUoHeykF2aTt4EbFHU8OWLu36R73ix5uVuxzhOMC8e1CqMmDD1ZH9Sw/iLjBfva3qJczCCf9cpvxnFArKAGKQIeewgNuVEXAB486wDTF4zphxCOW8ibtm19yY682S3L/bqA9ZoDM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DdrzdhH1KQLpT6dXbA+ardg/KRMa2l7NkIirxUZ9pxbJtmH+QZjn1Ti7OH/1hUMxQpx2jiQ+gTQEkWd4RM6/o6s3ZAkuDkFpeveexocK0z/i0djLkMnK8lAk/aNrZB7ZCFxctAvtDoWYzDX4KULD/vyaNEMURDWK5VWAfXfoWoM= Message-ID: <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 06:04:28 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73308 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick, Nick Palmer wrote: > Paul, you seem to think that just because you have used a computer > modelling program (LT Spice) that it's predictions are necessarily > reality. If the initial assumptions and parameters that were modelled > and programmed in are in error it won't be of much use to help us in the > area we are looking at. Your EE friends have never, in a real situation, > needed to know or even been able to measure the thermally generated > voltage noise when there is *no* current of any description, AC or DC, > passing though the resistor. You have to be kidding. > Ideally, it could be measured, if it > exists, but in the real world there is no ideal instrument. I don't care > if your EE friends lol at this - that would just show they don't fully > understand what they are dealing with. The challenge for EE's is *NOT* measuring noise. A great deal of EE's spend their entire career designing circuits and chips that have the least amount of noise. Viewing noise is one of the simplest task in electronics. BTW, the main issue with your recent posts is that you make it very clear that such thermal voltage noise is ***current dependant.*** You should build a low noise op-amp and measure both the voltage and current caused by a resistors thermal noise. I can assure you the amount of thermal voltage noise does not change relative to current. Some people would say that's basic 101 Electronics. Shame on you for spreading disinformation! > Your point about several random > sources adding up and "BTW, true voltage noise has no upper voltage > crest" yet again sabotages your position. It only sabotages it to naïve youngsters, no offense intended to anyone. > By analogy, looking at random > thermal molecular vibrations (heat) you might as well say that > temperature is only a statistical average - that there exists all > temperatures of particles in the spoon - that some in a room temperature > teaspoon are at a notional 5,000,000 degreesC. Just try using this spoon > to boil a cuppa though - you'll have a bloody long wait for your tea if > you wait for a number of random sources to align and give you useable > heat above ambient temperature. Again, no offense, but that's pure fuzzy logic. Again, adding two purely random noise sources increase the root mean square by sqrt(2). You should try it some day. Just do it by hand (pen waving) or with your calculator. Just take a hundred purely random numbers between 1 an -1, add them up and see what RMS value you get. > Let's cut to the chase. Build one of these diode/resistor/LED devices > that unequivocally generates significant, useable cohered output - such > as photons of a frequency and magnitude sufficient to cause a PV cell to > generate, say, 1 continuous watt using only ambient room temperature > heat without a lower temperature sink (to give the difference in energy > levels that is essential to create work) and I will give you £1,000. There's nothing magical about 1 continuous watt. One ***should*** only have to prove the point. > Of course once you have done this, then the world will also beat a path to > your door but I suspect that hell will freeze over first. That's a cup half empty comment. > You are one > amongst countless free energy dreamers - they failed - you will fail > too. That's a cup half empty comment. > Your hand waving That's a very well known term used by skeptics and debunkers. What's funny is watching physicists wave the pens as they write mathematical equations. Personally I prefer computer software over pen and hand waving, lol. > when pinned down is nowhere near as impressive as > such masters of the art as Joseph Newman and Dennis Lee or Joe Champion. Thanks for the confidence, support, and positive thinking, lol. I'll keep my glass half full mentality thank you very much! > BTW, I really think people who use the glass half full/empty "witticism" > are half wits. God bless you! Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 06:11:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22EBP3o024911; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:11:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22EBOgI024897; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:11:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:11:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SVjxreBVOKVPJENBsL5cMQm9Ygr0/UCoY1POvEaF3+WSs6GACI9WLLTHXZEPp4jTUglAjhyeEKoY3ZhvX32xHygp/eReWIRHa8g/y6mVVgCXD78Mhx8OlCSdFb+imrjJ/VCNh5lrRj7LJEp8FrdCjruqXS2Vkd/P8LjxxuJ/nic= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qPxEQXFhHge6SdwZfWW1s3u8Y3eZHsG8e/WmqgS1qXjXnr/b5953DVFmEtUOlFr5987qKXBdSoOtClfXmDKR3TPRRoYeMfFZKzDANnfMhhZfid2tSutd/c9ApoDbmqHYo7HlvPgI8U1Of6vqFw0YYNK+Gbokp35pM6B0p3X43q0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:11:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics In-Reply-To: <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73309 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/1/07, Nick Palmer wrote: > Of course once > you have done this, then the world will also beat a path to your door but I > suspect that hell will freeze over first. Well, Nick, the energy must come from somewhere. An engineer dies. He arrives at the Pearly Gates, but they don't let him in, so he goes to Hell. Hell is a pretty rotten environment. Right away, the engineer starts making improvements-lights, bathrooms, air conditioning-and after a while, Hell doesn't look so bad any more. God notices this, and asks the Devil what's going on. "Well, it's this engineer we've got," says the Devil. "Engineer?? You're not supposed to have any engineers in Hell!" says God. "There must have been a mistake. All engineers go to Heaven. Send him up here, right away!" "No way," says the Devil. "We're keeping him here." "I'll sue!!" cries God. "Yeah, right," sneers the Devil. "Where you gonna get a lawyer??" > (however, I'm still hoping Terry Blanton's pet magmo project might > work!). Hey, it's not *my* project, I'm just a technical consultant (with an equity position now :-). The BFM ships this week. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 06:22:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22EM0PS027958; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:22:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22ELvOd027938; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:21:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:21:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c75cd6$201e1e70$bf037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <006f01c75cd1$a7c8e670$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:21:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C75CA3.D4CF79A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73310 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C75CA3.D4CF79A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May work in the new world of welfare but never in the saloon at Dime Box = Texas. The characters that inhabit a Texas " beer joint" are a microcism = of the US Congress. For sure a fight will start as soon as somebody = takes a sip outa somebody else's mug.. half full or half empty.. the = fight starts...=20 Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Thomson=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:49 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Hi John, =20 The answer is easier obtained by taking two glasses, one full and one = empty, and then taking half of each. If a glass is already empty, = taking half of it doesn't fill it. It only makes sense to take half of = a full glass. =20 Dave =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:40 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty =20 I'm a 'we have the perfect amount of water and just an abundance of = glass' person myself. Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling = the glass or emptying it? On 3/2/07, thomas malloy wrote: Paul Lowrance wrote From what I'm seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people? I've = always found "Glass half full" people to have much farther foresight. = It's amazing how skeptics and debunkers cannot see the obvious. It's = highly unlikely a person will accomplish something they disbelieve.=20 IMHO, it's better to take into consideration the whole truth, warts = and all. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- = http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: = 2/27/2007 3:24 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C75CA3.D4CF79A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May work in the new world of welfare = but=20 never in the saloon at Dime Box Texas. The characters that inhabit = a Texas=20 " beer joint" are a microcism of the US Congress. For sure a fight will = start as=20 soon as somebody takes a sip outa somebody else's mug.. half full or = half=20 empty.. the fight starts...
 
Richard
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David = Thomson=20
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 = 7:49=20 AM
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or = half=20 empty

Hi=20 John,

 

The answer = is easier=20 obtained by taking two glasses, one full and one empty, and then = taking half=20 of each.  If a glass is already empty, taking half of it = doesn=92t fill=20 it.  It only makes sense to take half of a full=20 glass.

 

Dave

 

From: John=20 Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 = 1:40=20 AM
To:=20 vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject:=20 Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty

 

I'm a 'we have the perfect = amount of=20 water and just an abundance of glass' person myself.

Actually I = think=20 the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the glass or = emptying=20 it?

On 3/2/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net>=20 wrote:

Paul Lowrance = wrote

From what I'm=20 seeing Vo dominated by "Glass half empty" people?   I've = always=20 found "Glass half full" people to have much farther = foresight.  It's=20 amazing how skeptics and debunkers cannot see the = obvious.  It's=20 highly unlikely a person will accomplish something they disbelieve.=20

IMHO, it's better to take into consideration the whole truth, = warts=20 and all.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html<= /A> -=20 $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.htm= l -=20 $19.99/mo! ---

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release = Date:=20 2/27/2007 3:24 PM
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C75CA3.D4CF79A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 06:44:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22EiWgn011399; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:44:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22EiVAC011385; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:44:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:44:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nfbIR8KtOAHRPo7iR7Qjnl/p/50XKm1xF9Pg5exySABrUbtE7jSNWVun56gPJkvfdsMhcuR6EiVm9CTg7igYoZuDRMx0bbM6TjorcDIBccqDXBSlEBEWyTG/XzN0iFpdZJpM+XakSDIF8FW4dFdNZEe4NOZBytv++n+aThczmeU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=L0w6KaSqOeMtttqDSjoaKMGOjiGBudqjioFwQx7qh18/HJMQ4IHZ6fR3fKOFD40Q3vPHapV76RnEwhSio/uIgUq9ZeZZ545S+K3vQ8fM/5tpaFlQ+mnyyc0XUsKXQXEOXNPMC89HFIswT7YjgQ0UGWOZW4rodl4PiIG5a8IF69E= Message-ID: <45E8383E.2090303@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 06:44:14 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <006f01c75cd1$a7c8e670$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <001701c75cd6$201e1e70$bf037841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001701c75cd6$201e1e70$bf037841@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73311 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > May work in the new world of welfare but never in the saloon at Dime Box Texas. The characters that inhabit a Texas " beer joint" are a microcism of the US Congress. For sure a fight will start as soon as somebody takes a sip outa somebody else's mug.. half full or half empty.. the fight starts... But what if someone adds beer to his or her mug? That also may start a fight, as people tend to dislike a boat rocker. Isn't that a "Don't mess with me boy" type attitude? Give them something for free and they begin to suspect your cooking something up. On many occasions I've place a good used item out in front of the house, for free. It could sit there for days, but when I add a price of say "$1" the item quickly vanishes. I wonder what would happen if I placed an appreciable price, say $100. Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 08:11:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22GBODk022692; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:11:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22GBN8d022682; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:11:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:11:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=dPwa9eAZT0LJy1dLdmswMj8nuWxW6XJhCmAZXA72gzwSjoJluDyqhKSgx0ZLmbCI+MWoAnVbV7OCvs0xHoPoAOrnsuGurFsDzgwqeQq3g+QGgZ0dWI7WDTgzc0/HEua/c+XWW1Y2ENQ7dQZ9v+BTM67BVoan//Qb6k6QRh9nhdE= ; X-YMail-OSG: An8V354VM1kxZocIRYElv0tCq_jxN3Ob1ZVKWgYvRZFCOL6rtuWqOJ0dH7yVDXDfck1kPP2fUHK34pr.enpQCsUpsWDLoSu8S2ni8AQNuRPjnHZPGAkV7lCLAOowHtJuH4DjiM49GTrXFA4- Message-ID: <45E84CA1.2080909@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 08:11:13 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45E6F07C.9000005@pacbell.net> <45E7AA3F.9090805@usfamily.net> <45E81B7B.8040100@teksavvy.com> In-Reply-To: <45E81B7B.8040100@teksavvy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-PZ7h.A.MiF.qyE6FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73312 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Mars Melt Status: O X-Status: The good thing about this thread is that anyone with a computer can pretty-much call themselves an expert climatologist, as there are few pundits with phoney-baloney PhD's who can can actually prove them wrong. Show any "expert" (getting a fat Federal paycheck for felicitous "science" consulting) a long-term climate trend that they don't like, based on statistics, and the first thing you hear is the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" repartee and redrawn distorted charts. Not only that, but the Rashomon Effect rules. And our local News Media, at least here, spends million$ on a three-day-horizon guesstimate for weather forecasting, yet any fool with a Farmer's Almanac can make a better prediction most of the time. We the public, do not all want to hear about melting glaciers in Alaska, it seems, when the weather locally hasn't changed all that much. Having said that, let me add that the Vikings most likely called Greenland by that name to encourage colonization to a remote and hostile land (1.5 extra degrees of warming during that time frame does NOT change that god-forsaken spot into an Eden) ... This name-scam happened all the time in those days, and never stopped really - not unlike the house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha changing over to the more palatable and Brit-sounding "Windsor" so as not to be associated with what some call their Aryan supremacy heritage ... and ...yes there are still hundreds, that's right, hundreds of wineries in England: http://www.countrylovers.co.uk/prod/winemkrs.htm IOW the book in question could have been written just as authoritatively by 100 monkeys with typewriters instead of just the two ;-) ... and yet there is definitely some truth to the more general truth of solar cycles influencing weather. However, the big (huge) problem in acknowledging that "inconvenient truth" of AlGore ... which is both inconvenient and true, is that the present Petrocracy (which is the problem, not the solution) wants you to believe that humans do not aggravate that solar cycle situation by the wanton burning of fossil fuels. Total BS coming out of the White-House. This is the same greed-mentality that assured the residents of Love Canal that there was not very much of a health problem living there. IOW the NeoCon morons pay for this kind of self-serving bogus science, so that they will not be held partially responsible for the aftermath - and so that we, the people, will not have the moral fortitude to tax oil drastically- like the Euros do except even more. That is the fear of the seven sisters and the War-Hawks - a $3-5 gallon oil tax going hand-in-hand with elimination of Federal income tax, and drastic cutting of military budgets [not to mention: hybrid auto rebates paid for by SUV and Beamer-class purchasers] - God-forbid that the main beneficiaries are the working-man (who will end up with more cash in the end as Fed taxes are far higher than his tax burden, but must drive a hybrid) and the main looser is the military-industrial complex. Anyone who wants - and can afford the SUV or Beamer-class auto, or the toasty mansion, can still have one, but they must pay a fairer share for that indulgence. We, as an intelligent society, could cut oil consumption in half AND eliminate the Federal Income Tax (on the lower bracket 85% of citizens) simply by implementing a large enough oil tax, collected at the well-head or port-of-entry. But the present administration wants to label that kind of sentiment as anti-American, or even worse "liberal". Heck I might get a visit from the Patriot-police, even though this is *pure basic conservatism* folks ! (far from the neocon variety). And then the 'suits' go so far as to pay for - yes actual "payola"- so-called "climate experts" (like the two monkeys with computers) to bolster their greed with shoddy science, and they will go so far as to even dig up Gore's personal power bill out of the trash - to make him look like a bad guy for exposing a small part of their scam. He is the prototype Cadillac liberal, no doubt about that, who doesn't mind keeping a large Mansion extra warm and toasty in the winter. Shame on the Petrocracy (and shame on Gore too for his personal excesses, which should not matter as to his idealism). But the most shame -- goes to those "bought-and-paid-for" climatologists - the monkeys with computers. Jones peatbog wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: >> Jones Beene wrote: >> >>> Terry >>> >>> In fact according to another scientist's controversial theory, we may >>> be headed in the direction of a "Maunder Minimum", >>> >>> ... which... to Meander into cold cynicism, is another solution to the >>> global warming problem. >> >> >> I have previously mentioned Avery and Singer's book, Unstopable Global >> Warming Every 1500 Years. They make the point that the Vikings it called >> Greenland for a reason, and their colony was subsequently frozen out. >> The Romans grew wine grapes in England. > > With all that warm weather, were sea levels higher? Was half of > present-day London under water? > > >> >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 08:12:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22GC1KK029185; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:12:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22GBxk7029166; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:11:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:11:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=W/5K6H69VtHL/5uHqtBYDkDzRBCxSqud4Ln+TGEYVqSsGqrJ+Cju1jwt+3tdjt3AnZNztlepDqIhxBc1q4HGhD4cUkH3wq7JumwdoggcggM6tZOYyFKqCDKYqu/wmXhPdIONXGTaFMzkrQr+hd7mTl0qjOFJuBfQKDvSXr6jeSg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=O9VaG3I8z6fY6Ylsi0K1sK5+hLks+2wrw+I3DYHC5L+BDOmmhP5nAzlzk54XxQIV6dW7UzFGYNpjFApjU5ur2ezYriXyffOuibfZDnMCn4I7NcMPL8O2tMkHLD9fxMdK4Z99vZQ6rEZ0euOW/cXz7VHRV7ZV8at08gqRUj2UNWI= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:11:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45E8383E.2090303@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <006f01c75cd1$a7c8e670$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <001701c75cd6$201e1e70$bf037841@xptower> <45E8383E.2090303@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73313 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/2/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > I wonder what would happen if I > placed an appreciable price, say $100. You would receive a citation and be fined for running a business without a license. Soon, you would be audited by the IRS and they would trump up some charges against you. You would spend your life savings trying to defend yourself. You would be jailed anyway; and, lose your family and your house. You would be raped in prision and kill yourself by knocking yourself out with the toilet seat and drowning. Or someone would simply steal the object thinking they could hock it. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 08:24:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22GO5Ke010005; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:24:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22GO4W8009977; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:24:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:24:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KQZtOMGAoSxfhVAMBdMO5/aOsbuG4QhNQzppNYa3HZkSIN3Oy2BVOtgzD4RJDoMepOcVB4pBI3M5+TkSqW/k3U1vol1iENJT2VJnrXV7HhLiErTNfGHiRVbtQpk1lYAHmfnfkkmwE7a/NN0kA5hKLmccj07BgCqILh8XY1mkNxs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=P1MBdZ65zbat096HZMVpFAz7JByzrxZuK5itebRo2nVLfdtTBeuR25351O+d6fm4yRoXuhnxMTmovQ7/YHqNGuReLoU1kvjIbLmVUBTlO1pmWajBHxQ8pGJ0tj94oRxPo56mr+YLPhHleVHkM8tjkLe0DyNebSMu/PsBDTvgObw= Message-ID: <45E84F8E.50206@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 08:23:42 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <006f01c75cd1$a7c8e670$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <001701c75cd6$201e1e70$bf037841@xptower> <45E8383E.2090303@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73314 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/2/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >> I wonder what would happen if I >> placed an appreciable price, say $100. > > You would receive a citation and be fined for running a business > without a license. Soon, you would be audited by the IRS and they > would trump up some charges against you. You would spend your life > savings trying to defend yourself. You would be jailed anyway; and, > lose your family and your house. You would be raped in prision and > kill yourself by knocking yourself out with the toilet seat and > drowning. Wow, such pessimistic POV or humor. ;-) I think the odds of being struck by lightning are higher than all you said. You could merely get a garage sale permit. Think positive man. Think positive. :-) Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 08:34:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22GYqS8004555; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:34:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22GYlsX004517; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:34:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 08:34:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WyVBDCnYoxS6KvSA4a1hD1k+SGQ4s30AmWNHmVZUq6pa6cXM3bYtq986JlykeAlAjykmNSclmGuwWlaTGOsnGF1ATvpRWan9lwtVYFRpp+HH+ytq+ZQA2RJe3rYSCkQqQtarJy5Cz5jmAad04bXcDhCkC1jkKvvsIOCEGeFmV+Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nfUhE7zO9WbrZc6Rbk/cdWAb+yBDlgX1345qGbNxa89MQbnqZlkDL6vHCQoTPUGa1ZJnelnkDw2ANoguS8zvDGBaS4CPNBY1Hxu4DhT2sMuT4EH8xbpTqvqPSozWiefgAc/vK40Bg9lrfo3Z53X14zBk1y7wgEz/hQ5fdXxKMLg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:34:46 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45E84F8E.50206@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <006f01c75cd1$a7c8e670$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <001701c75cd6$201e1e70$bf037841@xptower> <45E8383E.2090303@gmail.com> <45E84F8E.50206@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73315 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/2/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Wow, such pessimistic POV or humor. The latter. Didn't you recognize the method of suicide from Alice's Restaurant? Terry, so positive I repell electrons. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 12:37:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22KbevG001489; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:37:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22Kbbgf001461; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:37:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:37:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=SIDhYrfEpy520aOa5Y6Ca6YxvZ7OJQXUF9tgBuFs0w4KKRreXz0ZUfn6v+3lQsBuxZMCxjqjMNvPpNrIdNvYpo5N7a7lHAowiFuxwZCU2laPIuEvjzU//NlnMzvNwU5No5yk9PCbspeDYpu+9UOxx8hyJSZVL/8xez4E5tq90qs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=t9iVNNnrld88WS2BQwz4w5XuZkAuYwEkxL2AQQNJYIokxvU9XutGapNWw4nmuf1dKDd9iaLO77X1Q4oP45a6aBwbqmAW69thkJH3pGgYt2Kumg4gFo+/aJkJa8Aa90UVfnXzboAsej2KWfxSuPgucPl4IYA59G75vbnS2V7Dc+A= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:37:36 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <059b01c75ca4$23d25f90$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_96668_2927822.1172867856714" References: <45E7C458.9000300@usfamily.net> <059b01c75ca4$23d25f90$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_96668_2927822.1172867856714 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The difference is that I believe (to put in mildly) that it is possible to have a simple electrical device (actually an aetheric electrical device) that generates any desired level of energy, most here don't. (so why are they here?) The energy being probably created (there is simply no reason to believe that energy can't be created, nor would it be true to say that apparent energy production has ever been observed, nor would it be true to assert that energy creation is illogical or unsupported my the equations, the opposite it true - doubters, I invite you to challenge me on that) or possibly liberated from some near infinite storehouse of energy. There is ample evidence of course and all the 'needles' are pointing in the same direction creating a coherent picture as to how this works. Most of the rest of Vortex seems more interested in arm chair stuff regarding various forms of nuclear energy, and math to prove what can't be done. (only to ignore math that proves it can be done) IMO there are only 2 things that are of any use in this area, #1 is researching as many devices as possible (difference there is you and many others may assume many are 'defective' without reason) to get an understanding of what is going on. Let the correlations, the anomalies and clues paint a picture, resist projecting an image of how they work and just let the data speak to you. 2# Experiment, though IMO to be likely to experiment successfully (unless you just have the knack as some do) you should take what you have learned from #1. Also unless you have some idea, some understanding of how it works (not theory but observation of phenomena and inescapable conclusions) and some interest in learning more you aren't creating a new branch of physics, just a curious device. The problem is there is much that most ignore due to limits they assume exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be understood or engineered. I believe in a fluid aether (actually of the 3 possibilities: SR, static aether and dynamic aether only the last one is logical or sensible, SR is impossible and a static aether little better) which is the key to Antigravity and Free Energy. The interesting thing about that is I was strongly opposed on both counts (any link between FE & AG and the existence of a fluid aether) but the evidence when you really honestly look is overwhelming and inescapable. We don't need to be looking more selectively, we need to be looking from a greater distance to get the overall picture. Just look at all the evidence, only you may not see the connections you expected, I didn't. You can't get to new land by using old maps, you can't use old physics based on impossibilities to do what it considers impossible. What I'm saying isn't crazy at all, simply follow the evidence and remember it doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense. Realize that the limits man has placed have always been in error, indeed the beliefs of every age are shown to be wrong so put less weight in the limits of your thinking and the current consensus and more on the evidence. (and go find interesting evidence) Why people think their preconcieved notions of what is and isn't possible trumps the evidence I'll never know. /rant On 3/2/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Excellent reasoning John :) > > Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing us > to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can > concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of > not wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question > of believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge > tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy). > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Berry" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty > > > ... > > Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling > the > > glass or emptying it? > ... > > ------=_Part_96668_2927822.1172867856714 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The difference is that I believe (to put in mildly) that it is possible to have a simple electrical device (actually an aetheric electrical device) that generates any desired level of energy, most here don't. (so why are they here?)

The energy being probably created (there is simply no reason to believe that energy can't be created, nor would it be true to say that apparent energy production has ever been observed, nor would it be true to assert that energy creation is illogical or unsupported my the equations, the opposite it true - doubters, I invite you to challenge me on that) or possibly liberated from some near infinite storehouse of energy.

There is ample evidence of course and all the 'needles' are pointing in the same direction creating a coherent picture as to how this works.

Most of the rest of Vortex seems more interested in arm chair stuff regarding various forms of nuclear energy, and math to prove what can't be done. (only to ignore math that proves it can be done)

IMO there are only 2 things that are of any use in this area, #1 is researching as many devices as possible (difference there is you and many others may assume many are 'defective' without reason) to get an understanding of what is going on.
Let the correlations, the anomalies and clues paint a picture, resist projecting an image of how they work and just let the data speak to you.

2# Experiment, though IMO to be likely to experiment successfully (unless you just have the knack as some do) you should take what you have learned from #1.
Also unless you have some idea, some understanding of how it works (not theory but observation of phenomena and inescapable conclusions) and some interest in learning more you aren't creating a new branch of physics, just a curious device.

The problem is there is much that most ignore due to limits they assume exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be understood or engineered.

I believe in a fluid aether (actually of the 3 possibilities: SR, static aether and dynamic aether only the last one is logical or sensible, SR is impossible and a static aether little better) which is the key to Antigravity and Free Energy.

The interesting thing about that is I was strongly opposed on both counts (any link between FE & AG and the existence of a fluid aether) but the evidence when you really honestly look is overwhelming and inescapable.

We don't need to be looking more selectively, we need to be looking from a greater distance to get the overall picture. Just look at all the evidence, only you may not see the connections you expected, I didn't.

You can't get to new land by using old maps, you can't use old physics based on impossibilities to do what it considers impossible.
What I'm saying isn't crazy at all, simply follow the evidence and remember it doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense.

Realize that the limits man has placed have always been in error, indeed the beliefs of every age are shown to be wrong so put less weight in the limits of your thinking and the current consensus and more on the evidence. (and go find interesting evidence)

Why people think their preconcieved notions of what is and isn't possible trumps the evidence I'll never know.

/rant

On 3/2/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Excellent reasoning John :)

Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing us to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of not wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question of believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy).

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com >
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty


...
> Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the
> glass or emptying it?
...



------=_Part_96668_2927822.1172867856714-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 12:52:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22Kprxw011416; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:51:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22KpqcM011404; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:51:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:51:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JIlMXfjhxVCwsPIsVL0KwbnvGTImZEp4TIbrml5CtX54oZlXmSkjd3724/SKn71yIXYLgQW41d3AK3VEPcav/uqJA3IJqQaywTyT+LIsQrZhHHnRA3L4E2yf8Or2d/df9lKkFrtTPIaVm786SQDKyQ2VxKQNT1JC88UE6RsdsgE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jOEDJo5w/0hve3+iYKYDuPAilLnbg1gGV+cRDOJcU+hyLNGrBSat9HOHcaB5GGb/kG8nItakwTqXNTih6eluIQcFK2KhjFLy5TbBz6xQT1UNCXy/XaAbcWzu4gTquecwNoNnYCGeG7vic9/72dJwCHD6Jnv3q20lCxmtymlgBlw= Message-ID: <45E88E59.8040403@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 12:51:37 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <45E7C458.9000300@usfamily.net> <059b01c75ca4$23d25f90$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > The problem is there is much that most ignore due to ***LIMITS*** they assume > exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be > understood or engineered. Sad, but very true. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 13:26:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22LQ2Vk023244; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:26:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22LQ0gZ023208; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:26:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:26:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:25:29 -0600 Message-ID: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C75CDF.0F32FA50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcddDFbDu7upp7uWQlO6CsbZlRi5/gAA9LUw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <3_YSlC.A.gqF.oZJ6FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73318 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C75CDF.0F32FA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, You're just as guilty as those you accuse. I have presented a fully quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you claim ought to be possible. http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf You believe matter can be created? http://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf You want mathematical proof that the Aether Physics Model is correct? http://www.16pi2.com/files/Electron_binding_energy_equation.pdf What more do you need? Do you expect me to single handedly answer every question anybody could ask about physics? Do you expect me to design and build every possible free energy device and make it available through Wal-mart? There is only so much a person can do, especially when they are dirt poor. I don't get involved with the discussions because the cynics don't care and those seeking the truth don't listen. Dave _____ From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 2:38 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty The difference is that I believe (to put in mildly) that it is possible to have a simple electrical device (actually an aetheric electrical device) that generates any desired level of energy, most here don't. (so why are they here?) The energy being probably created (there is simply no reason to believe that energy can't be created, nor would it be true to say that apparent energy production has ever been observed, nor would it be true to assert that energy creation is illogical or unsupported my the equations, the opposite it true - doubters, I invite you to challenge me on that) or possibly liberated from some near infinite storehouse of energy. There is ample evidence of course and all the 'needles' are pointing in the same direction creating a coherent picture as to how this works. Most of the rest of Vortex seems more interested in arm chair stuff regarding various forms of nuclear energy, and math to prove what can't be done. (only to ignore math that proves it can be done) IMO there are only 2 things that are of any use in this area, #1 is researching as many devices as possible (difference there is you and many others may assume many are 'defective' without reason) to get an understanding of what is going on. Let the correlations, the anomalies and clues paint a picture, resist projecting an image of how they work and just let the data speak to you. 2# Experiment, though IMO to be likely to experiment successfully (unless you just have the knack as some do) you should take what you have learned from #1. Also unless you have some idea, some understanding of how it works (not theory but observation of phenomena and inescapable conclusions) and some interest in learning more you aren't creating a new branch of physics, just a curious device. The problem is there is much that most ignore due to limits they assume exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be understood or engineered. I believe in a fluid aether (actually of the 3 possibilities: SR, static aether and dynamic aether only the last one is logical or sensible, SR is impossible and a static aether little better) which is the key to Antigravity and Free Energy. The interesting thing about that is I was strongly opposed on both counts (any link between FE & AG and the existence of a fluid aether) but the evidence when you really honestly look is overwhelming and inescapable. We don't need to be looking more selectively, we need to be looking from a greater distance to get the overall picture. Just look at all the evidence, only you may not see the connections you expected, I didn't. You can't get to new land by using old maps, you can't use old physics based on impossibilities to do what it considers impossible. What I'm saying isn't crazy at all, simply follow the evidence and remember it doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense. Realize that the limits man has placed have always been in error, indeed the beliefs of every age are shown to be wrong so put less weight in the limits of your thinking and the current consensus and more on the evidence. (and go find interesting evidence) Why people think their preconcieved notions of what is and isn't possible trumps the evidence I'll never know. /rant On 3/2/07, Michel Jullian wrote: Excellent reasoning John :) Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing us to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of not wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question of believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty ... > Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the > glass or emptying it? ... ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C75CDF.0F32FA50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = John,

 

You’re just as guilty as = those you accuse.  I have presented a fully quantified alternative physics = theory, which predicts exactly what you claim ought to be = possible.

http://www.1= 6pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf

 

You believe matter can be = created?

http= ://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf

 

You want mathematical proof that = the Aether Physics Model is correct?

= http://www.16pi2.com/files/Electron_binding_energy_equation.pdf<= /o:p>

 

What more do you need?  Do you = expect me to single handedly answer every question anybody could ask about physics?  Do you expect me to design and build every possible free = energy device and make it available through Wal-mart?  There is only so = much a person can do, especially when they are dirt poor.  =

 

I don’t get involved with the discussions because the cynics don’t care and those seeking the = truth don’t listen.

 

Dave

 

From: John = Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, = 2007 2:38 PM
To: = vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half = full or half empty

 

The difference = is that I believe (to put in mildly) that it is possible to have a simple = electrical device (actually an aetheric electrical device) that generates any = desired level of energy, most here don't. (so why are they here?)

The energy being probably created (there is simply no reason to believe = that energy can't be created, nor would it be true to say that apparent = energy production has ever been observed, nor would it be true to assert that = energy creation is illogical or unsupported my the equations, the opposite it = true - doubters, I invite you to challenge me on that) or possibly liberated = from some near infinite storehouse of energy.

There is ample evidence of course and all the 'needles' are pointing in = the same direction creating a coherent picture as to how this works.

Most of the rest of Vortex seems more interested in arm chair stuff = regarding various forms of nuclear energy, and math to prove what can't be done. = (only to ignore math that proves it can be done)

IMO there are only 2 things that are of any use in this area, #1 is = researching as many devices as possible (difference there is you and many others may = assume many are 'defective' without reason) to get an understanding of what is = going on.
Let the correlations, the anomalies and clues paint a picture, resist projecting an image of how they work and just let the data speak to = you.

2# Experiment, though IMO to be likely to experiment successfully = (unless you just have the knack as some do) you should take what you have learned = from #1.
Also unless you have some idea, some understanding of how it works (not = theory but observation of phenomena and inescapable conclusions) and some = interest in learning more you aren't creating a new branch of physics, just a = curious device.

The problem is there is much that most ignore due to limits they assume = exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be = understood or engineered.

I believe in a fluid aether (actually of the 3 possibilities: SR, static = aether and dynamic aether only the last one is logical or sensible, SR is = impossible and a static aether little better) which is the key to Antigravity and = Free Energy.

The interesting thing about that is I was strongly opposed on both = counts (any link between FE & AG and the existence of a fluid aether) but the = evidence when you really honestly look is overwhelming and inescapable.

We don't need to be looking more selectively, we need to be looking from = a greater distance to get the overall picture. Just look at all the = evidence, only you may not see the connections you expected, I didn't.

You can't get to new land by using old maps, you can't use old physics = based on impossibilities to do what it considers impossible.
What I'm saying isn't crazy at all, simply follow the evidence and = remember it doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense.

Realize that the limits man has placed have always been in error, indeed = the beliefs of every age are shown to be wrong so put less weight in the = limits of your thinking and the current consensus and more on the evidence. (and = go find interesting evidence)

Why people think their preconcieved notions of what is and isn't = possible trumps the evidence I'll never know.

/rant

On 3/2/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:

Excellent = reasoning John :)

Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing = us to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can = concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of not = wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question of = believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy).

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com = >
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty


...
> Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you = filling the
> glass or emptying it?
...

 

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C75CDF.0F32FA50-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 13:42:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22LgLPC006841; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:42:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22LgJYM006808; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:42:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:42:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:42:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-reply-to: <45E88E59.8040403@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73319 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: During the Renaissance (and before), many reasonable people scoffed at the idea that the Earth is spinning. The main (non-religious) objections were: 1) If the Earth is spinning then why doesn't the Earth move below a stone thrown straight up. 2) A body that is not anchored to the ground should fly off. These criticisms were quite reasonable and really couldn't be adequately answered until the concept of inertia was introduced into the science of motion. The answer to the first the question was that our inertia carries us along with the spinning earth. The answered to the second question depends on the answer to the first question. According to the principle of inertia any body that is not secured to the earth should fly off, but since this is not the case it must be because gravity is a force which is strong enough to overcome a body's inertia. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 13:54:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22Ls2IL007345; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:54:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22Ls0mi007322; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:54:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:54:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:53:52 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73320 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi John, > > > > You’re just as guilty as those you accuse. I have presented a fully > quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you > claim ought to be possible. > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf > > > > You believe matter can be created? > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf > > > > You want mathematical proof that the Aether Physics Model is correct? Theories can only be disproven, not proven, as all on this list should be well aware. Evidence may support a theory, but can't "prove it correct" ... and mathematics, alone, can't "prove" anything about reality. Evidence alone may, on the other hand, prove a theory incorrect. Any number of examples can't "prove" a theorem, but a single counterexample can disprove it. When you say "Aether Physics model", do you mean aether as in "luminiferous aether", the hypothetical medium in which electromagnetic waves propagate? If so, how you do you account for the results of the Michelson-Morley and Sagnac experiments in your model? These two brought down the "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic theory. (Or do you deny that MMX actually got a null result?) I asked Grimer how he dealt with the MMX results, and he never replied ... for whatever that's worth. But maybe he just overlooked the post. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 13:59:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22LxEUu009505; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:59:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22LxDrS009493; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:59:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:59:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eWMtHXwpow8Ho6KTGpVPUrR/oL9tYHPizxF9rlAoqJaUE5MtWN/iuxPCn4xIpMK7621kiOwLASPpzeMZyRQmDCf1yRH8rcSqZTsr8uaocA9k/0EHi66Muo1gY6P9HE17E3h/o1bnciKN2qrzMZBoCxzfv88TZviARSQFishXn5M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=azlptdrN2U2Kh2UpCrfVO87N5YB6QtapdpP1m9QBd1IhL8toferbtJ6j2AuYCKQbi5P+XKFXSH1Wj6PL820RviTVsgDLEbk73LbfqukIaAmIJiAH1BC7I2IvRG/zpYLGFQ+ZXiyCKsRlHX2bXnZfFdfbXg83+iOVTme/v+9HqNg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:59:13 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73321 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/2/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > I asked Grimer how he dealt with the MMX results, and he never replied > ... for whatever that's worth. But maybe he just overlooked the post. Maybe he didn't get it. His email address has changed since he went broadband. Also, I don't think he is subscribed here under his new address. You could always post your question to the Yahoo Beta Atmosphere group. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 14:17:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22MGu89015881; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:16:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22MGsf1015859; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:16:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:16:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E8A253.4000402@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:16:51 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73322 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/2/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> I asked Grimer how he dealt with the MMX results, and he never replied >> ... for whatever that's worth. But maybe he just overlooked the post. > > Maybe he didn't get it. It was a post to Vortex, back when he was active on the list. > His email address has changed since he went > broadband. Also, I don't think he is subscribed here under his new > address. > > You could always post your question to the Yahoo Beta Atmosphere group. Good idea, but not really worth it in this case -- I didn't want to chase him around with a challenge, just kind of wondered how he dealt with it. I never bought his theory to start with so going into his forum to ask him for details would be more like just taking a jab at him than actually sincerely asking for information. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 15:36:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l22Na6Yd027871; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:36:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l22Na3ai027826; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:36:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:36:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=E8Hxr0h6ZICJXwTTRRHMh92xpeGDzzc0fJAsowVdVXFgqo8tk1WGUPevI6QnSGXK/VkifhEOkQZ1b7iPfEv808x3BksJ1WabmGC13PmDdk9Z8HnmLxxSQxuXBmFuA51+lypnKVhbGQC+mdahItCQUafw78Kr0it+fblL8NuJz/I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kuZK/Lu4ERJh1CUEVTIzz7Yrxay6uLzaoQYyBdsNow5mAiGDd6rohLe4Z9/+4Las1MZ4BpjeiETevJHR0oNHpZE16yt5vQPB6UnFl6J3WZjks5wPA8jNeEM82eGTQ4o+TTMTX/H1pqG6nbIFjKrNIACne580E4Ne5NXdd6VUE3U= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:36:00 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45E8A253.4000402@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> <45E8A253.4000402@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73323 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/2/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > I never bought his theory to start with so going into his forum to ask > him for details would be more like just taking a jab at him than > actually sincerely asking for information. Well, in my experience with Brits, they like the verbal jab with which they will respond with a parry and thrust! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 16:04:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2304WwX007249; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:04:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2304WPj007241; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:04:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:04:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 23:47:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73324 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From John Berry's "we can do what ever we want if we just get the old rocks out of our head" message:- <> Quite so. Tell Paul... Paul Lowrance has come up with a theory that if he exploits a certain phenomenon he will get free energy from ambient heat. He has no evidence that he can do this - only his belief in his theory. He has been irritating people on this forum for quite some time. He maybe does not realise that he is not the first type to come on here with some idea that they believe is brilliant that the whole of the rest of humanity has not spotted. They normally stick around for a while, get their ideas repeatedly shot full of holes by most of the good minds on here and end up coming out with increasingly desperate and irrelevant arguments, such as Paul just did and then eventually they disappear into cyberspace, never to be heard from again. I am sure they go away thinking that we are all a bunch of "half empty types" who don't recognise genius when we see it... LOL He has no evidence that his idea can be done. He just believes it because he cannot see why he is mistaken. I have tried to show him why he is mistaken and others also tried before but he brushes all reality off his personal force field of vanity, patronisation and smugness. I challenged him that if he can provide a working device based on his idea that I would pay him £1000 just for doing it - I do not want the device after it has proved itself. I forgot to say that my terms also are that he owes me £1,000 when he fails, which he will. He seems to be taking ideas from computer programme simulations and the received wisdom of sound/electrical engineers as gospel and that their macro scale understanding relates to what is happening at the molecular and sub-atomic level - what is he - another burnt out rock musician like that clown Minato? At least Minato built a bicycle wheel device which fooled a lot of people. Put up or shut up Paul - stop rabbiting about why you think your idea will work, go and build it and report back to Vortex with ***RESULTS***, which will undoubtedly show that no energy is generated from ambient heat without a cooler heat sink, which will prove that your unsubstantiated theory is in error. Then just slink off with your tail between your legs (if you have any sense) and go and leave us in peace. If you don't slink off quietly, you may get obsessed with your vapourware belief and like so many, many, many others, you will waste your entire life chasing a half-full positive thinking mirage. You may go to your grave, still trying to work out why all your experiments failed to generate energy and your last thought may be "Ah, if only I had tried this variation, it would have worked". Alternatively, you could come up with a fraudulent device that looks realistic to the general public and could tout it around as the answer to mankind's need for clean energy and offer licences for the exclusive right to an area etc, etc. Perhaps that was your original purpose in coming on this forum. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 16:44:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l230iUFs018935; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:44:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l230iTem018926; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:44:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:44:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UKiK4vEAu74DHZtKCgNKQEmVyB0eZN7/WLnbda+3aSyn4cB9hACgY7If3vst9e5czbPf47uD2PdBg+sPlPiAUT5dd1AUEr7LHjLQ9tT2bgr73T3B7nyDEEf0RpkFQAbCvH8GxC2oIm2bhAsw8+7/eMRH0sTPia6Sl7uC04ZJ9Yo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CQUAfk/Uhwnj173NySPEGnfgX1iWg+fq3cPgeWXKxy5N00OJu9zjEjtrSsQ7ViVgA5TrR6TF+nrU6bfEnFmfPkcG2cxdVu171EQ0S95NYr+PqkCsYDQYLKH/65/1/sIFHXI+BzYLzcmb/+aKjvp36jgZe+19GJbDQZTAU4N9EFk= Message-ID: <45E8C4DC.8030402@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:44:12 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73325 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >> From John Berry's "we can do what ever we want if we just get the old >> rocks > out of our head" message:- > > < possible trumps the evidence I'll never know>> Quite so. Tell Paul... > > Paul Lowrance has come up with a theory that if he exploits a certain > phenomenon he will get free energy from ambient heat. He has no evidence > that he can do this - only his belief in his theory. He has been > irritating people on this forum for quite some time. He maybe does not > realise that he is not the first type to come on here with some idea > that they believe is brilliant that the whole of the rest of humanity > has not spotted. They normally stick around for a while, get their ideas > repeatedly shot full of holes by most of the good minds on here and end > up coming out with increasingly desperate and irrelevant arguments, such > as Paul just did and then eventually they disappear into cyberspace, > never to be heard from again. I am sure they go away thinking that we > are all a bunch of "half empty types" who don't recognise genius when we > see it... LOL He has no evidence that his idea can be done. He just > believes it because he cannot see why he is mistaken. I have tried to > show him why he is mistaken and others also tried before but he brushes > all reality off his personal force field of vanity, patronisation and > smugness. I challenged him that if he can provide a working device > based on his idea that I would pay him £1000 just for doing it - I do > not want the device after it has proved itself. I forgot to say that my > terms also are that he owes me £1,000 when he fails, which he will. > He seems to be taking ideas from computer programme simulations and > the received wisdom of sound/electrical engineers as gospel and that > their macro scale understanding relates to what is happening at the > molecular and sub-atomic level - what is he - another burnt out rock > musician like that clown Minato? At least Minato built a bicycle wheel > device which fooled a lot of people. > > Put up or shut up Paul - stop rabbiting about why you think your idea > will work, go and build it and report back to Vortex with ***RESULTS***, > which will undoubtedly show that no energy is generated from ambient > heat without a cooler heat sink, which will prove that your > unsubstantiated theory is in error. Then just slink off with your tail > between your legs (if you have any sense) and go and leave us in peace. > If you don't slink off quietly, you may get obsessed with your > vapourware belief and like so many, many, many others, you will waste > your entire life chasing a half-full positive thinking mirage. You may > go to your grave, still trying to work out why all your experiments > failed to generate energy and your last thought may be "Ah, if only I > had tried this variation, it would have worked". Alternatively, you > could come up with a fraudulent device that looks realistic to the > general public and could tout it around as the answer to mankind's need > for clean energy and offer licences for the exclusive right to an area > etc, etc. Perhaps that was your original purpose in coming on this forum. Nick, Answer this. If it is possible to capture energy from ambient temperature then wouldn't you want to know how? Obviously you believe it is impossible to capture energy from ambient temperature and stored the energy. If it is possible then first we need to verify. Therefore it does not matter if we prove 1 joule was captured or however much energy. We are talking about a device that theoretically could be a micrometer or smaller. If I can demonstrate how you can store energy taken from ambient temperature then will admit your error? No I am not trying to trick you with temperature gradients or radiation from radio stations or electric ground potential gradients, etc. etc. I am talking about a device that utilizes thermal voltage noise at room temperature-- Vn = sqrt(4 K T R dF) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 16:47:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l230lEER013530; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:47:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l230lC77013508; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:47:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:47:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Oeao8Aw9dhUnXyBhN/oGcASquuNEYzpVlaJSqEuFRXwmi/8fFIr3zkPRrkRlO7T4eYVTTO6JBYVriY3mJyScZ0fEr1hh/uwg9dKWwQy9yfN0aTk7qVZJRgaYcan2F0fJZ46vldjh04I6bTHwbrHYkreJ43nsRTKASdSf+cDUTDc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=t81cOiQb5XWToRonZIHghL3Yss08NJWFXxWSKGI/1Qid5AFE40UvgNuTRdOJ9B0Phr05EpOMV+g7V1b+GzfBG57KIfo9Ak2L7ETEr1N0Nvc0CWa1ovhTf2NscZWweyd5huA+u0bUrH3PMJMS3IpgR44Gs23qasz+CjJBPs0Fe98= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:47:10 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_100527_10752996.1172882830444" References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73326 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_100527_10752996.1172882830444 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/3/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > David Thomson wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > You're just as guilty as those you accuse. I have presented a fully > > quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you > > claim ought to be possible. > > > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf > > > > > > > > You believe matter can be created? > > > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf > > > > > > > > You want mathematical proof that the Aether Physics Model is correct? > > Theories can only be disproven, not proven, as all on this list should > be well aware. Evidence may support a theory, but can't "prove it > correct" ... Agreed, but here I'd like to point out something. I know a fluid aether exists, it's a fact not a theory. For instance how electricity works is a theory, how magnets work is a theory, how gravity works is a theory. But that something we call electricity exists is not a theory, that magnetism exists is not a theory, that gravity exists is not a theory. There is a difference between recognizing the existence of a force and theorizing what it is and how it works. BTW another thing that is not a theory is that matter can entrain space time, and generally such a model is termed a dynamic aether model, generally modeled as a fluid. It is the only possible model as SR is illogical as is a Universally static aether when galaxies are speeding away from each other at superluminal velocities.. and mathematics, alone, can't "prove" anything about > reality. Evidence alone may, on the other hand, prove a theory > incorrect. Any number of examples can't "prove" a theorem, but a single > counterexample can disprove it. > > When you say "Aether Physics model", do you mean aether as in > "luminiferous aether", the hypothetical medium in which electromagnetic > waves propagate? > > If so, how you do you account for the results of the Michelson-Morley > and Sagnac experiments in your model? These two brought down the > "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic theory. (Or do > you deny that MMX actually got a null result?) Oh boy, do your own research. I asked Grimer how he dealt with the MMX results, and he never replied > ... for whatever that's worth. But maybe he just overlooked the post. Maybe it's because the results weren't null, maybe it's because the only sensible model is one where the aether is mostly entrained by the earth which would mean it would give only a small result at higher altitudes and almost no result in basements as indeed was found, maybe it's because the experiment was highly flawed. Maybe it's because many far far better experiments (and observations) do show a drift. ------=_Part_100527_10752996.1172882830444 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/3/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:


David Thomson wrote:
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> You're just as guilty as those you accuse.  I have presented a fully
> quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you
> claim ought to be possible.
>
> http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf
>
>
>
> You believe matter can be created?
>
> http://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf
>
>
>
> You want mathematical proof that the Aether Physics Model is correct?

Theories can only be disproven, not proven, as all on this list should
be well aware.  Evidence may support a theory, but can't "prove it
correct" ...

Agreed, but here I'd like to point out something.
I know a fluid aether exists, it's a fact not a theory.

For instance how electricity works is a theory, how magnets work is a theory, how gravity works is a theory.
But that something we call electricity exists is not a theory, that magnetism exists is not a theory, that gravity exists is not a theory.

There is a difference between recognizing the existence of a force and theorizing what it is and how it works.

BTW another thing that is not a theory is that matter can entrain space time, and generally such a model is termed a dynamic aether model, generally modeled as a fluid.
It is the only possible model as SR is illogical as is a Universally static aether when galaxies are speeding away from each other at superluminal velocities..

and mathematics, alone, can't "prove" anything about
reality.  Evidence alone may, on the other hand, prove a theory
incorrect.  Any number of examples can't "prove" a theorem, but a single
counterexample can disprove it.

When you say "Aether Physics model", do you mean aether as in
"luminiferous aether", the hypothetical medium in which electromagnetic
waves propagate?

If so, how you do you account for the results of the Michelson-Morley
and Sagnac experiments in your model?  These two brought down the
"classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic theory.  (Or do
you deny that MMX actually got a null result?)

Oh boy, do your own research.

I asked Grimer how he dealt with the MMX results, and he never replied
... for whatever that's worth.  But maybe he just overlooked the post.

Maybe it's because the results weren't null, maybe it's because the only sensible model is one where the aether is mostly entrained by the earth which would mean it would give only a small result at higher altitudes and almost no result in basements as indeed was found, maybe it's because the experiment was highly flawed.

Maybe it's because many far far better experiments (and observations) do show a drift.
------=_Part_100527_10752996.1172882830444-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 16:51:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l230pmiG021650; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:51:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l230plYk021627; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:51:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:51:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=d/QVrZqAaKSlCG0MbgZrM2FThNvLkXBH4tdrjhj1JL9r+cBJ6MgwmMYtmBUzON0rnDzm9M5IgC+nzPiS2aow7gkEydk0/Z+XY++dSDIXZsiONQxlWQNyFaaW0N3WXu/vbflb9UR1kaVVqCb6blM05qTsElRWtf9IdAq6O9JkpOk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=NDPRXvZWcpEGy9C7IFcynCjOEDqlhKHnZiWLKmIE76iRYm5Kh1tLe5gMat/iSxZLqHG5mNWY8kT+eMVSJgk5Loz31Gpp4+LvQ6gm/MPrjEBqjRxIBSfEAPdpy44ygzaeUfNUDGt28ejBzSAR+8wRMj4IULHr32ebVhNYvZON7MA= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:51:44 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_100559_22898562.1172883104057" References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73327 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_100559_22898562.1172883104057 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/3/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > You're just as guilty as those you accuse. I have presented a fully > quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you claim > ought to be possible. > Not quite sure what I'm meant to be guilty of, this is the first I have heard of your theory. But what good is a theory? What experimental evidence is it based on and how does it help us develop this tech? (don't answer too soon I'm going to take a quick look over your pdf's. (evil format btw) http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf > > > > You believe matter can be created? > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf > > > > You want mathematical proof that the Aether Physics Model is correct? > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/Electron_binding_energy_equation.pdf > > > > What more do you need? Do you expect me to single handedly answer every > question anybody could ask about physics? Do you expect me to design and > build every possible free energy device and make it available through > Wal-mart? There is only so much a person can do, especially when they are > dirt poor. > > > > I don't get involved with the discussions because the cynics don't care > and those seeking the truth don't listen. > > > > Dave > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, March 02, 2007 2:38 PM > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty > > > > The difference is that I believe (to put in mildly) that it is possible to > have a simple electrical device (actually an aetheric electrical device) > that generates any desired level of energy, most here don't. (so why are > they here?) > > The energy being probably created (there is simply no reason to believe > that energy can't be created, nor would it be true to say that apparent > energy production has ever been observed, nor would it be true to assert > that energy creation is illogical or unsupported my the equations, the > opposite it true - doubters, I invite you to challenge me on that) or > possibly liberated from some near infinite storehouse of energy. > > There is ample evidence of course and all the 'needles' are pointing in > the same direction creating a coherent picture as to how this works. > > Most of the rest of Vortex seems more interested in arm chair stuff > regarding various forms of nuclear energy, and math to prove what can't be > done. (only to ignore math that proves it can be done) > > IMO there are only 2 things that are of any use in this area, #1 is > researching as many devices as possible (difference there is you and many > others may assume many are 'defective' without reason) to get an > understanding of what is going on. > Let the correlations, the anomalies and clues paint a picture, resist > projecting an image of how they work and just let the data speak to you. > > 2# Experiment, though IMO to be likely to experiment successfully (unless > you just have the knack as some do) you should take what you have learned > from #1. > Also unless you have some idea, some understanding of how it works (not > theory but observation of phenomena and inescapable conclusions) and some > interest in learning more you aren't creating a new branch of physics, just > a curious device. > > The problem is there is much that most ignore due to limits they assume > exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be > understood or engineered. > > I believe in a fluid aether (actually of the 3 possibilities: SR, static > aether and dynamic aether only the last one is logical or sensible, SR is > impossible and a static aether little better) which is the key to > Antigravity and Free Energy. > > The interesting thing about that is I was strongly opposed on both counts > (any link between FE & AG and the existence of a fluid aether) but the > evidence when you really honestly look is overwhelming and inescapable. > > We don't need to be looking more selectively, we need to be looking from a > greater distance to get the overall picture. Just look at all the evidence, > only you may not see the connections you expected, I didn't. > > You can't get to new land by using old maps, you can't use old physics > based on impossibilities to do what it considers impossible. > What I'm saying isn't crazy at all, simply follow the evidence and > remember it doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense. > > Realize that the limits man has placed have always been in error, indeed > the beliefs of every age are shown to be wrong so put less weight in the > limits of your thinking and the current consensus and more on the evidence. > (and go find interesting evidence) > > Why people think their preconcieved notions of what is and isn't possible > trumps the evidence I'll never know. > > /rant > > On 3/2/07, *Michel Jullian * wrote: > > Excellent reasoning John :) > > Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing us > to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can > concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of > not wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question > of believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge > tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy). > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Berry" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty > > > ... > > Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling > the > > glass or emptying it? > ... > > > ------=_Part_100559_22898562.1172883104057 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/3/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:

Hi John,

 

You're just as guilty as those you accuse.  I have presented a fully quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you claim ought to be possible.


Not quite sure what I'm meant to be guilty of, this is the first I have heard of your theory.

But what good is a theory? What experimental evidence is it based on and how does it help us develop this tech? (don't answer too soon I'm going to take a quick look over your pdf's. (evil format btw)

http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf

 

You believe matter can be created?

http://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf

 

You want mathematical proof that the Aether Physics Model is correct?

http://www.16pi2.com/files/Electron_binding_energy_equation.pdf

 

What more do you need?  Do you expect me to single handedly answer every question anybody could ask about physics?  Do you expect me to design and build every possible free energy device and make it available through Wal-mart?  There is only so much a person can do, especially when they are dirt poor. 

 

I don't get involved with the discussions because the cynics don't care and those seeking the truth don't listen.

 

Dave

 

From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 2:38 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty

 

The difference is that I believe (to put in mildly) that it is possible to have a simple electrical device (actually an aetheric electrical device) that generates any desired level of energy, most here don't. (so why are they here?)

The energy being probably created (there is simply no reason to believe that energy can't be created, nor would it be true to say that apparent energy production has ever been observed, nor would it be true to assert that energy creation is illogical or unsupported my the equations, the opposite it true - doubters, I invite you to challenge me on that) or possibly liberated from some near infinite storehouse of energy.

There is ample evidence of course and all the 'needles' are pointing in the same direction creating a coherent picture as to how this works.

Most of the rest of Vortex seems more interested in arm chair stuff regarding various forms of nuclear energy, and math to prove what can't be done. (only to ignore math that proves it can be done)

IMO there are only 2 things that are of any use in this area, #1 is researching as many devices as possible (difference there is you and many others may assume many are 'defective' without reason) to get an understanding of what is going on.
Let the correlations, the anomalies and clues paint a picture, resist projecting an image of how they work and just let the data speak to you.

2# Experiment, though IMO to be likely to experiment successfully (unless you just have the knack as some do) you should take what you have learned from #1.
Also unless you have some idea, some understanding of how it works (not theory but observation of phenomena and inescapable conclusions) and some interest in learning more you aren't creating a new branch of physics, just a curious device.

The problem is there is much that most ignore due to limits they assume exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be understood or engineered.

I believe in a fluid aether (actually of the 3 possibilities: SR, static aether and dynamic aether only the last one is logical or sensible, SR is impossible and a static aether little better) which is the key to Antigravity and Free Energy.

The interesting thing about that is I was strongly opposed on both counts (any link between FE & AG and the existence of a fluid aether) but the evidence when you really honestly look is overwhelming and inescapable.

We don't need to be looking more selectively, we need to be looking from a greater distance to get the overall picture. Just look at all the evidence, only you may not see the connections you expected, I didn't.

You can't get to new land by using old maps, you can't use old physics based on impossibilities to do what it considers impossible.
What I'm saying isn't crazy at all, simply follow the evidence and remember it doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense.

Realize that the limits man has placed have always been in error, indeed the beliefs of every age are shown to be wrong so put less weight in the limits of your thinking and the current consensus and more on the evidence. (and go find interesting evidence)

Why people think their preconcieved notions of what is and isn't possible trumps the evidence I'll never know.

/rant

On 3/2/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:

Excellent reasoning John :)

Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing us to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of not wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question of believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy).

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com >
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty


...
> Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the
> glass or emptying it?
...

 


------=_Part_100559_22898562.1172883104057-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 17:06:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2316E0p028838; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:06:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2316DcH028820; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:06:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:06:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=iT9IpKqTE6vByeyJXuA4aY0q0Bh6P4BFH1lMbzdFLua0u/Xur8DfNviOO3y6izTM; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <9803023.1172883972440.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:06:12 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d88c9f22ac789771436ce8ec3b66258ebe3b5efdd33357ec02350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.31 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73328 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 2, 2007 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Mar 2, 2007 2:41 PM >To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 2, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 2 Mar 07 Washington, DC 1. FIRST AMENDMENT: HIGH COURT TAKES ON FAITH-BASED INITIATIVES. Early in his presidency, George W. Bush issued an executive order creating a White House Office of Faith-Based Initiatives that gives billions of dollars to religious groups of its choosing without oversight. No politician dares to challenge it, but a group of atheists who pay taxes sued in federal court, arguing that it violated the "establishment clause" of the 1st Amendment. An appeals court ruled that the case can go forward. However, the White House director short circuited the process by asking the Supreme Court, stacked with conservatives, to weigh in. The issue is whether taxpayers have standing under the establishment clause to challenge the way the executive branch uses money appropriated by Congress. The Court heard oral arguments this week and is expected to rule before adjourning for the summer. 2. NASA EXPLORATION: THE ROBOTIC MISSIONS ARE GOING JUST FINE. The speedy New Horizons probe has gotten a boost from Jupiter on its way to Pluto. As it left Jupiter yesterday, the Long Range Reconnaissance Imager on board New Horizons took a spectacular picture of the plume from the Tvashtar volcano on Io. The plume was discovered by Hubble just two weeks ago. 3. THE OTHER NASA: RETHINKING THE VALUE OF HUMAN SPACE FLIGHT. The arrest of astronaut Lisa Nowak on charges of planning to kidnap and murder a romantic rival raised questions about plans for dealing with instability in space. The Associated Press obtained NASA's written procedure. It calls for binding wrists and ankles with duct tape, tying down with bungee cords and injection with tranquillizers. Meanwhile, fuel is being removed from the shuttle before sending it back to the garage to repair damage from a hail storm, delaying launch until at least the end of April. The shuttle is expected to retire in 2010, "if a tree don't fall on it" first, as the song goes. A replacement won't be ready before 2005. Budget cuts are likely to delay plans for a new manned spacecraft to replace the shuttle to at least 2015. Inevitably, it raises questions the value of humans in space. 4. SUPERSTITION: MAYBE, "THE LOST TOMB OF A GUY NAMED JESUS"? The documentary, "The Lost Tomb of Jesus," airs on the Discovery Channel, Sunday. It claims to have found a tomb in Jerusalem that held the remains of Jesus, his wife Mary Magdalene, their son Judah, his mother Mary, and assorted other family members. Coming just before Easter, it outraged the faithful who point out it couldn't be the same guy, that one ascended bodily into heaven. The War Between Religion and Science, ignited by the Intelligent Design movement, is heating up. According a front page story in today's Weekend Journal section of the Wall Street Journal, it's now generational. The story says that the new thing in adolescent rebellion is to be excessively devout, driving liberated parents nuts. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 17:09:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2319WW6026110; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:09:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2319UGv026102; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:09:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:09:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qVMVxRrEwLGDL4xiVUHqxJO/Zw3I54Mi0BvOFG+Cs6iefJvnxI/jp39yvpZLESfaLJtrX++OR7fUpSx+1T/pPqAoUbYrjGuA7PNADS1JHojuufAtPsWQYgm2FMBAgR6aLYPkjFaF3x7DXHobA9BBbfEoUQVXGxWhbs3Z//zC1Ck= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=KQhX/JJlPPxlwafkGmAST7gjEFBrIWU81Jz/iryRSer5X8WuedV6547Z0qigLtPS0KBgZJSIG+m4Uxgz+pYiNobmiu0wJaPNjA7zc61GIWRSqLeXSn5c8Ho50xeZWPwsJA+l27neQ3UTUUOtAYL0wNBlFMZ22NCPLbkagimpmgw= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:09:28 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_100791_1154825.1172884168393" References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73329 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_100791_1154825.1172884168393 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, that didn't take long. I am after skimming (very lightly) the 3 links unsure what experiments your theory is based on. I am also not sure it said anything about how to make a simple device to output free energy or create (so-called) antigravity. Does it explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG devices to numerous to list? Is your aether largely entrained by matter? Assuming it is how can it be motivated to flow through matter? If it is what effects will occur, will spins be aligned? Will fields (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether. If the aether is compressed what will happen? (many experiments indicate antigravity results) And how could the aether be compressed? Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the aether the source of inertia? Can matters coupling to the aether be changed? I seriously don't think you have answered any of these questions. It seems all you do is explain the mundane. On 3/3/07, John Berry wrote: > > > > On 3/3/07, David Thomson wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > You're just as guilty as those you accuse. I have presented a fully > > quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you claim > > ought to be possible. > > > > Not quite sure what I'm meant to be guilty of, this is the first I have > heard of your theory. > > But what good is a theory? What experimental evidence is it based on and > how does it help us develop this tech? (don't answer too soon I'm going to > take a quick look over your pdf's. (evil format btw) > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf > > > > > > > > You believe matter can be created? > > > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf > > > > > > > > You want mathematical proof that the Aether Physics Model is correct? > > > > http://www.16pi2.com/files/Electron_binding_energy_equation.pdf > > > > > > > > What more do you need? Do you expect me to single handedly answer every > > question anybody could ask about physics? Do you expect me to design and > > build every possible free energy device and make it available through > > Wal-mart? There is only so much a person can do, especially when they are > > dirt poor. > > > > > > > > I don't get involved with the discussions because the cynics don't care > > and those seeking the truth don't listen. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Friday, March 02, 2007 2:38 PM > > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty > > > > > > > > The difference is that I believe (to put in mildly) that it is possible > > to have a simple electrical device (actually an aetheric electrical device) > > that generates any desired level of energy, most here don't. (so why are > > they here?) > > > > The energy being probably created (there is simply no reason to believe > > that energy can't be created, nor would it be true to say that apparent > > energy production has ever been observed, nor would it be true to assert > > that energy creation is illogical or unsupported my the equations, the > > opposite it true - doubters, I invite you to challenge me on that) or > > possibly liberated from some near infinite storehouse of energy. > > > > There is ample evidence of course and all the 'needles' are pointing in > > the same direction creating a coherent picture as to how this works. > > > > Most of the rest of Vortex seems more interested in arm chair stuff > > regarding various forms of nuclear energy, and math to prove what can't be > > done. (only to ignore math that proves it can be done) > > > > IMO there are only 2 things that are of any use in this area, #1 is > > researching as many devices as possible (difference there is you and many > > others may assume many are 'defective' without reason) to get an > > understanding of what is going on. > > Let the correlations, the anomalies and clues paint a picture, resist > > projecting an image of how they work and just let the data speak to you. > > > > 2# Experiment, though IMO to be likely to experiment successfully > > (unless you just have the knack as some do) you should take what you have > > learned from #1. > > Also unless you have some idea, some understanding of how it works (not > > theory but observation of phenomena and inescapable conclusions) and some > > interest in learning more you aren't creating a new branch of physics, just > > a curious device. > > > > The problem is there is much that most ignore due to limits they assume > > exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be > > understood or engineered. > > > > I believe in a fluid aether (actually of the 3 possibilities: SR, static > > aether and dynamic aether only the last one is logical or sensible, SR is > > impossible and a static aether little better) which is the key to > > Antigravity and Free Energy. > > > > The interesting thing about that is I was strongly opposed on both > > counts (any link between FE & AG and the existence of a fluid aether) but > > the evidence when you really honestly look is overwhelming and inescapable. > > > > We don't need to be looking more selectively, we need to be looking from > > a greater distance to get the overall picture. Just look at all the > > evidence, only you may not see the connections you expected, I didn't. > > > > You can't get to new land by using old maps, you can't use old physics > > based on impossibilities to do what it considers impossible. > > What I'm saying isn't crazy at all, simply follow the evidence and > > remember it doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense. > > > > Realize that the limits man has placed have always been in error, indeed > > the beliefs of every age are shown to be wrong so put less weight in the > > limits of your thinking and the current consensus and more on the evidence. > > (and go find interesting evidence) > > > > Why people think their preconcieved notions of what is and isn't > > possible trumps the evidence I'll never know. > > > > /rant > > > > On 3/2/07, *Michel Jullian * wrote: > > > > Excellent reasoning John :) > > > > Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing > > us to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can > > concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of > > not wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question > > of believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge > > tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy). > > > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Berry" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty > > > > > > ... > > > Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling > > the > > > glass or emptying it? > > ... > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_100791_1154825.1172884168393 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, that didn't take long.

I am after skimming (very lightly) the 3 links unsure what experiments your theory is based on.
I am also not sure it said anything about how to make a simple device to output free energy or create (so-called) antigravity.

Does it explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG devices to numerous to list?

Is your aether largely entrained by matter? Assuming it is how can it be motivated to flow through matter?
If it is what effects will occur, will spins be aligned? Will fields (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether.

If the aether is compressed what will happen? (many experiments indicate antigravity results)
And how could the aether be compressed?

Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the aether the source of inertia?

Can matters coupling to the aether be changed?

I seriously don't think you have answered any of these questions.
It seems all you do is explain the mundane.


On 3/3/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:


On 3/3/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:

Hi John,

 

You're just as guilty as those you accuse.  I have presented a fully quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you claim ought to be possible.


Not quite sure what I'm meant to be guilty of, this is the first I have heard of your theory.

But what good is a theory? What experimental evidence is it based on and how does it help us develop this tech? (don't answer too soon I'm going to take a quick look over your pdf's. (evil format btw)

http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf

 

You believe matter can be created?

http://www.16pi2.com/files/APM-Construction-of-Universe.pdf

 

You want mathematical proof that the Aether Physics Model is correct?

http://www.16pi2.com/files/Electron_binding_energy_equation.pdf

 

What more do you need?  Do you expect me to single handedly answer every question anybody could ask about physics?  Do you expect me to design and build every possible free energy device and make it available through Wal-mart?  There is only so much a person can do, especially when they are dirt poor. 

 

I don't get involved with the discussions because the cynics don't care and those seeking the truth don't listen.

 

Dave

 

From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 2:38 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty

 

The difference is that I believe (to put in mildly) that it is possible to have a simple electrical device (actually an aetheric electrical device) that generates any desired level of energy, most here don't. (so why are they here?)

The energy being probably created (there is simply no reason to believe that energy can't be created, nor would it be true to say that apparent energy production has ever been observed, nor would it be true to assert that energy creation is illogical or unsupported my the equations, the opposite it true - doubters, I invite you to challenge me on that) or possibly liberated from some near infinite storehouse of energy.

There is ample evidence of course and all the 'needles' are pointing in the same direction creating a coherent picture as to how this works.

Most of the rest of Vortex seems more interested in arm chair stuff regarding various forms of nuclear energy, and math to prove what can't be done. (only to ignore math that proves it can be done)

IMO there are only 2 things that are of any use in this area, #1 is researching as many devices as possible (difference there is you and many others may assume many are 'defective' without reason) to get an understanding of what is going on.
Let the correlations, the anomalies and clues paint a picture, resist projecting an image of how they work and just let the data speak to you.

2# Experiment, though IMO to be likely to experiment successfully (unless you just have the knack as some do) you should take what you have learned from #1.
Also unless you have some idea, some understanding of how it works (not theory but observation of phenomena and inescapable conclusions) and some interest in learning more you aren't creating a new branch of physics, just a curious device.

The problem is there is much that most ignore due to limits they assume exist and if these more spooky things did exist they assume couldn't be understood or engineered.

I believe in a fluid aether (actually of the 3 possibilities: SR, static aether and dynamic aether only the last one is logical or sensible, SR is impossible and a static aether little better) which is the key to Antigravity and Free Energy.

The interesting thing about that is I was strongly opposed on both counts (any link between FE & AG and the existence of a fluid aether) but the evidence when you really honestly look is overwhelming and inescapable.

We don't need to be looking more selectively, we need to be looking from a greater distance to get the overall picture. Just look at all the evidence, only you may not see the connections you expected, I didn't.

You can't get to new land by using old maps, you can't use old physics based on impossibilities to do what it considers impossible.
What I'm saying isn't crazy at all, simply follow the evidence and remember it doesn't have to make sense to you, it just has to make sense.

Realize that the limits man has placed have always been in error, indeed the beliefs of every age are shown to be wrong so put less weight in the limits of your thinking and the current consensus and more on the evidence. (and go find interesting evidence)

Why people think their preconcieved notions of what is and isn't possible trumps the evidence I'll never know.

/rant

On 3/2/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:

Excellent reasoning John :)

Talking about glasses, what we need _now_ IMHO is good glasses allowing us to see through the haystack of defective designs/proposals, so we can concentrate on the few needles that may hide in there. It's a question of not wasting scarce time, energy, money and other resources, not a question of believing or not (no sensible person can doubt that alternatives to huge tokamaks are possible for abundant clean energy).

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com >
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty


...
> Actually I think the answer to the riddle is simple, were you filling the
> glass or emptying it?
...

 



------=_Part_100791_1154825.1172884168393-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 17:34:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l231YBKi002757; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:34:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l231YAcr002742; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:34:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:34:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c75d34$09e6ed40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8C4DC.8030402@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 01:33:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <9tcvZB.A.yq.RCN6FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73330 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote:- <> Obviously, but we already know how you propose to do it because you already told us over and over. Nanometre scale arrays of LEDs and noisy diode/resistors. Rectification of the "voltage noise" allegedly leads to emission of photons - come to think of it why don't you just rectify the "voltage noise" and use the pure electricity directly? Probably because making it look this simple would make it even more obvious that it will not work. C'mon, this is like saying that pulling your nanometre sized bootstraps up in just the right clever way will lift you off the ground. I wish you luck in your endeavour. <> I will only accept a working device as a true demonstration of your assertion.You speculated that this device could power the world. Just giving us what you believe to be a watertight theory is not enough. Could'a, would'a, should'a won't cut the mustard. Experiment trumps theory, particularly way out theories... Build it and we will come. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 17:51:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l231pHu0017847; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:51:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l231pF7v017835; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:51:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:51:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=groQCFc2ByWidtqe4Z0V6Y5VC6p8R9+BN490dDnlfcmpRlS+o1tjIJ8J+3di5a+TAztmQ8nLAbYVAtP45jLRWgrNyWLHgmHynBl1ssQqzkGKJpzWbDz1ZBmUneNIIYLy/d6oPpHN53QGPojTU+4Vh4gPzMSyxmbvrJHCQEq57dw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QwEOpKXgMdgbkRmFMCaiEWwX+4RlzSkVlFBlHaITAPFHCRe7xlaG1SYGyNfNIzimjCvG/C3G4hZvCsl8HCo5eDnRnLT2sjlzVkH/86XrznULFijhgrieYTin3l04k7anl9o2K6wQesCycT5UxZLin7GXqaL6bemrkgjnWp60Bqk= Message-ID: <45E8D482.7040506@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:50:58 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8C4DC.8030402@gmail.com> <000e01c75d34$09e6ed40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <000e01c75d34$09e6ed40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73331 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > Paul wrote:- > > < temperature then wouldn't you want to know how?>> > > I wish you luck in your endeavour. Please don't leave now. > < temperature then will admit your error?>> > > I will only accept a working device as a true demonstration of your > assertion.You speculated that this device could power the world. Just > giving us what you believe to be a watertight theory is not enough. > Could'a, would'a, should'a won't cut the mustard. Experiment trumps > theory, particularly way out theories... Build it and we will come. Nick, for the sake of truth I am directly challenging you on your statements regarding thermal voltage noise. Again I ask you --> Question for Nick --> --- If I can demonstrate how you can store energy taken from ambient temperature then will admit your error? No I am not trying to trick you with temperature gradients or radiation from radio stations or electric ground potential gradients, etc. etc. I am talking about a device that utilizes thermal voltage noise at room temperature-- Vn = sqrt(4 K T R dF) --- Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 18:31:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l232VkSg031744; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:31:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l232VkIr031736; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:31:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:31:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E8DE0D.9010507@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:31:41 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73332 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > It is the only possible model as SR is illogical Well, that sure shoots down SR. > > If so, how you do you account for the results of the Michelson-Morley > and Sagnac experiments in your model? These two brought down the > "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic theory. (Or do > you deny that MMX actually got a null result?) > > > Oh boy, do your own research. OK, I guess that answers the question. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 18:51:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l232p7DA005238; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:51:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l232p63S005229; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:51:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:51:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:51:03 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73333 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >> From John Berry's "we can do what ever we want if we just get the old >> rocks > out of our head" message:- > > < possible trumps the evidence I'll never know>> Quite so. Tell Paul... > > Paul Lowrance has come up with a theory that if he exploits a certain > phenomenon he will get free energy from ambient heat. He has no evidence > that he can do this - only his belief in his theory. It's also something which is discussed in sophomore EE classes FWIW. I don't think Paul realizes that. > He has been > irritating people on this forum for quite some time. He maybe does not > realise that he is not the first type to come on here with some idea > that they believe is brilliant that the whole of the rest of humanity > has not spotted. They normally stick around for a while, get their ideas > repeatedly shot full of holes by most of the good minds on here Actually we're supposed to exercise a bit of restraint on this list and not shoot too many holes in theories even if they look like easy targets. At least, that's my understanding of the Vortex rules -- it's supposed to be a safe place to air ideas which are not fully baked, and criticism is supposed to be constructive, if possible, rather than destructive. It's hard sometimes, when people come in with totally goofy misconceptions and a condescending and insulting attitude toward anyone who's actually invested the time and effort to understand some small piece of modern physics, but whatever ... most of the regulars here are at least polite about it when someone disagrees with them. As one common example, it bugs me when someone who couldn't define a rank 2 mixed tensor to save his life explains that relativity is obviously self-contradictory and anyone who doesn't realize that must be a fool, idiot, or establishment dupe, but in general I try to just shut up and ignore it (with limited success, I admit...) > and end > up coming out with increasingly desperate and irrelevant arguments, such > as Paul just did and then eventually they disappear into cyberspace, > never to be heard from again. I am sure they go away thinking that we > are all a bunch of "half empty types" Yeah, I liked that one. Along with lumping all mainstream physicists together as cynical "debunkers"... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 22:16:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l236GWkM013788; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:16:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l236GU0T013778; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:16:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:16:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=hyO1LsqEgVmEf7TJWwdOSU1ldw7u2Qgli+nG9nFR8xjKSSGJmgE+lGxbUU49Ex5ufti2e0XBSdI0BuDRVd9rECj/lFm1r+64H41IH/li01tW0kp4Id0aMyCcbwrmpp8xr+nEsq+UgZU+2M7QHk4WOZD4KilX2AfyqVNhlC66FMc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=U+lJcplLEOpF7oAPJ8pQSmWtTKgYSUCGpudbarRHeB/+QgdFI3vnSFArmdvMSzVkNfd8vsla+6SJIlPbgbxaLQtahlLeO1uuqNH6ppajN5mDDkIxOJfSf5Gc4PVHUSB73ZY4cekOMYd3PXr9TxpWCGYt57gP5q/Ti97ZukS2who= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:16:27 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45E8DE0D.9010507@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_103280_4935596.1172902587307" References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> <45E8DE0D.9010507@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73334 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_103280_4935596.1172902587307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/3/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > It is the only possible model as SR is illogical > > Well, that sure shoots down SR. SR has many logical inconsistencies, you can't not be aware of this. There are many situations where SR simply can't work though I can't think of anything less fun than discussing these issues with someone who seemingly has no interest is the subject because if you did you would agree rather than quip. > > > If so, how you do you account for the results of the > Michelson-Morley > > and Sagnac experiments in your model? These two brought down the > > "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic theory. (Or > do > > you deny that MMX actually got a null result?) > > > > > > Oh boy, do your own research. > > OK, I guess that answers the question. I guess you didn't read the next part where I did in fact go over the reasons why the MMX in no way disproves an entrained aether. You seem to be more interested in cheap shots than science or truth. ------=_Part_103280_4935596.1172902587307 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/3/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:


John Berry wrote:

> It is the only possible model as SR is illogical

Well, that sure shoots down SR.

SR has many logical inconsistencies, you can't not be aware of this.
There are many situations where SR simply can't work though I can't think of anything less fun than discussing these issues with someone who seemingly has no interest is the subject because if you did you would agree rather than quip.

>
>     If so, how you do you account for the results of the Michelson-Morley
>     and Sagnac experiments in your model?  These two brought down the
>     "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic theory.  (Or do
>     you deny that MMX actually got a null result?)
>
>
> Oh boy, do your own research.

OK, I guess that answers the question.

I guess you didn't read the next part where I did in fact go over the reasons why the MMX in no way disproves an entrained aether.

You seem to be more interested in cheap shots than science or truth.

------=_Part_103280_4935596.1172902587307-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 22:27:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l236RQlU018030; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:27:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l236RPt4018017; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:27:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:27:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 01:28:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-OXexB.A.dZE.NVR6FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73335 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > mv^2/r is the _derived_ centripetal force on an object rotating relative to > an inertial frame of reference. If the Earth is assumed to be rotating then > v = 0 for the satellite and the satellite's equation of motion is: > > GMm/r^2 - ma = 0, and a = GM/r^2 > > If the satellite is assumed to rotating then the derived force mv^2/r may be > assumed to be _functionally equivalent_ to the gravitational force GMm/r^2. > Functional equivalency does not necessarily establish physical equivalency. > > Harry > > ...no one disagrees? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 22:43:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l236hKPh032212; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:43:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l236hI2X032177; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:43:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:43:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=hG+WB5kFsxr/DirDg71nBshvPW7ttC3WBGhBw55SYSrKcJY6gIOGNQSWIwUDvlT0ONmWlAGF4pFymSlmic7DXu4BHGGnwOhJzXcpNguHnbgth2r6crVFj5b9qQqZW1ECNccHwNVv0IkO3FzWlSv77jJyoc9MqStToYsXvHCdSuE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=JgXwaO3g07Eo0M5cafk+RclWY4YbIOIG43MI8Fit5t6Zvq92evgRQMe59CJh8R/Q4ZB1fqFWo5NrEQrssTj9yuoXNBoE83gMu+dJRDQwNAqSkucsnoAXgkk4Qgf+eq9zQTHO3VcoJ8wciMUHevpdfXP9mODLGbPuKRH71iVWLfI= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:43:17 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-Reply-To: <45E63F5C.5040107@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_103548_12605559.1172904197631" References: <45E63F5C.5040107@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: <-FJjd.A.m2H.FkR6FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73336 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_103548_12605559.1172904197631 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/1/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > If any divergence between inertial and gravitational mass is > ever found, however small it may be, it will be a an enormous blow to > the validity of GR, because it will imply that gravity is /not/ a > fictitious force, after all. Many experiments have shown differences. Magnets in repulsion drop slower. Some materials fall at different rates. Bismuth was one IIRC, Carbon is another, for instance a carbon sphere and an iron sphere of equal mass will fall at different rates in an atmosphere, the carbon one will fall faster despite being less aerodynamic due to the much larger size! Gyroscopes fall at a different rate. But the largest effect is magnets in (I think always) repulsion which many have shown to fall much slower, as much as 1/3rd slower. I think I also recall mass under compression falls at a different rate. ------=_Part_103548_12605559.1172904197631 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/1/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
Harry Veeder wrote:
If any divergence between inertial and gravitational mass is
ever found, however small it may be, it will be a an enormous blow to
the validity of GR, because it will imply that gravity is /not/ a
fictitious force, after all.


Many experiments have shown differences.

Magnets in repulsion drop slower.
Some materials fall at different rates.
Bismuth was one IIRC, Carbon is another, for instance a carbon sphere and an iron sphere of equal mass will fall at different rates in an atmosphere, the carbon one will fall faster despite being less aerodynamic due to the much larger size!

Gyroscopes fall at a different rate.

But the largest effect is magnets in (I think always) repulsion which many have shown to fall much slower, as much as 1/3rd slower.

I think I also recall mass under compression falls at a different rate.

------=_Part_103548_12605559.1172904197631-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 03:45:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23BiumS027210; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 03:44:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23BisoE027193; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 03:44:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 03:44:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <06f901c75d89$a38a48c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:46:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l23Biqhw027167 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73337 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I will only comment when you'll have released the power consumed by the 100kg lifter ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> >> mv^2/r is the _derived_ centripetal force on an object rotating relative to >> an inertial frame of reference. >> If the Earth is assumed to be rotating then >> v = 0 for the satellite and the satellite's equation of motion is: >> >> GMm/r^2 - ma = 0, and a = GM/r^2 >> >> If the satellite is assumed to rotating then the derived force mv^2/r may be >> assumed to be _functionally equivalent_ to the gravitational force GMm/r^2. >> Functional equivalency does not necessarily establish physical equivalency. >> >> Harry >> >> > > > ...no one disagrees? > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 05:33:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23DX17G028718; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:33:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23DX01o028697; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:33:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:33:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 07:32:43 -0600 Message-ID: <001701c75d98$73334320$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> Thread-Index: AcddFedSLNI8/yGKTSCJSa5KsovoiQAgErGQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73338 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, > When you say "Aether Physics model", do you mean aether as in "luminiferous aether", the hypothetical medium in which electromagnetic waves propagate? When I say "Aether Physics Model," I mean a fluid-dynamic-quantum Aether, just as it is explained in the paper. If so, how you do you account for the results of the Michelson-Morley and Sagnac experiments in your model? The theory I present induces upon the empirical data only, there is no guesswork, postulates, or other hypothetical foundation. As such, the theory I produce fully agrees with the MMX experiment as it was conducted as well as the Sagnac experiment. In fact, it also agrees with General Relativity theory. > These two brought down the "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic theory. (Or do you deny that MMX actually got a null result?) First off, Michelson, Morley, and Miller all deny they got a null result. The so-called "null result" is a result with a magnitude much smaller than was expected for a rigid Aether. The Aether Physics Model reveals a fluid Aether. Dayton Miller spent over twenty years of his life repeating the measurements and continually observed results, dependent upon the density of the material around him. The Aether Physics Model shows that subatomic particles exist with a quantum of Aether. The denser the matter, the less Aether-drift will occur in that region. Michelson and Morley first conducted their experiments in a basement, Dayton Miller later conducted his experiment on top of Mt. Wilson. Also, the question can be thrown back at you. If the Aether did not exist, how did Maxwell, Fresnel, and Bernoulli get positive results before Special Relativity came along? Are you aware that Einstein wrote a paper about the Aether when he was 16, which is substantially supportive of my work? Are you aware that after Einstein developed GR he again stated there had to be some kind of Aether? Who exactly says the Aether does not exist and has evidence to support the non-existence of Aether? The evidence for Aether's existence is abundant. Magnetic, electric, and gravitational fields are direct manifestations of the Aether. Electrostatic charge comes from Aether, not matter. Solitons and phonons are direct evidence for the existence of Aether. BECs are direct evidence for the existence of Aether. Frame dragging is direct evidence for the existence of Aether. The curvature of space-time is direct evidence for the existence of Aether. Aether, especially as I have quantified it, is a verified fact. The only thing holding it back is the willingness of modern science to accept it. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 05:38:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23DcHUS002111; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:38:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23DcFXg002096; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:38:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:38:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 07:37:54 -0600 Message-ID: <001801c75d99$2e408bf0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C75D66.E3A61BF0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AcddLfw7A7wP1JHVS5STyNe+TwdPLwAaqYVA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73339 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C75D66.E3A61BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, > For instance how electricity works is a theory, how magnets work is a theory, how gravity works is a theory. But that something we call electricity exists is not a theory, that magnetism exists is not a theory, that gravity exists is not a theory. > There is a difference between recognizing the existence of a force and theorizing what it is and how it works. Exactly! That is exactly what the Aether Physics Model provides, a full quantification of quantum structure, as opposed to quantum mechanics. It is almost impossible to explain this to any modern physicist, however, because they have never been told that quantum structure exists. In fact, wave-particle duality and probability theory told them quantum structure does not exist. Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C75D66.E3A61BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = John,

 

 

=

> For instance = how electricity works is a theory, how magnets work is a theory, how gravity works is a = theory.
But that something we call electricity exists is not a theory, that = magnetism exists is not a theory, that gravity exists is not a theory.

> There = is a difference between recognizing the existence of a force and theorizing = what it is and how it works.

 

=

Exactly!  That is exactly = what the Aether Physics Model provides, a full quantification of quantum = structure, as opposed to quantum mechanics.  It is almost impossible to explain = this to any modern physicist, however, because they have never been told that = quantum structure exists.  In fact, wave-particle duality and probability = theory told them quantum structure does not exist.

Dave

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C75D66.E3A61BF0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 05:49:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23DnA8f009855; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:49:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23Dn8Si009840; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:49:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 05:49:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 07:48:48 -0600 Message-ID: <002001c75d9a$b458e560$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C75D68.69BE7560" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AcddLoJXfbJxENQ0QD+hVB4bSjVNUgAaqr/w Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73340 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C75D68.69BE7560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, >> You're just as guilty as those you accuse. I have presented a fully quantified alternative physics theory, which predicts exactly what you claim ought to be possible. > Not quite sure what I'm meant to be guilty of, this is the first I have heard of your theory. > But what good is a theory? I agree, especially when you don't read it. > What experimental evidence is it based on and how does it help us develop this tech? (don't answer too soon I'm going to take a quick look over your pdf's. (evil format btw) This theory is developed entirely from the known physical constants and data. It is induced, not deduced. This theory describes quantum structure, as opposed to quantum mechanics. Have you ever worked on a car as a teenager, particularly before engines were fitted with computers? You didn't have to be the engineer who designed the motor to understand how it worked and how to modify it. By being able to see the motor, take it apart, and reassemble it, one could gain an intuitive understanding of the mechanics. This made auto mechanics accessible to a greater audience. The Aether Physics Model is still in a very low state of evolution, but its practical results are already apparent. The fact that I can calculate all the 1s orbital electron energies from first principles is better than what quantum mechanics can do. Also, I can account for every known physical characteristic of quantum physics, including the fine structure constant, the subatomic particle g-factors, the nature of spin, the imaginary number, and other dimensional and dimensionless constants. Further, this model provides a quantifiable basis for exploring the relationship between mind and matter via the unit of conductance. So far, I have been invited to London and Memphis to present this model before an audience of qualified scientists. Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C75D68.69BE7560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = John,

 

>> You're just as guilty as those you = accuse.  I have presented a fully quantified alternative physics theory, which = predicts exactly what you claim ought to be = possible.

> Not quite sure = what I'm meant to be guilty of, this is the first I have heard of your = theory.

> But = what good is a theory?

 

I agree, especially when you = don’t read it. 

 

> What = experimental evidence is it based on and how does it help us develop this tech? = (don't answer too soon I'm going to take a quick look over your pdf's. (evil = format btw)

 

=

This theory is developed entirely = from the known physical constants and data.  It is induced, not = deduced.  This theory describes quantum structure, as opposed to quantum mechanics.  =

 

=

Have you ever worked on a car as a teenager, particularly before engines were fitted with computers?  = You didn’t have to be the engineer who designed the motor to understand how it = worked and how to modify it.  By being able to see the motor, take it apart, = and reassemble it, one could gain an intuitive understanding of the = mechanics.  This made auto mechanics accessible to a greater = audience.

 

=

The Aether Physics Model is still = in a very low state of evolution, but its practical results are already = apparent.  The fact that I can calculate all the 1s orbital electron energies from = first principles is better than what quantum mechanics can do.  Also, I = can account for every known physical characteristic of quantum physics, including = the fine structure constant, the subatomic particle g-factors, the nature of = spin, the imaginary number, and other dimensional and dimensionless = constants.  Further, this model provides a quantifiable basis for exploring the relationship = between mind and matter via the unit of = conductance.

 

=

So far, I have been invited to = London and Memphis to present this model before an audience of qualified = scientists. 

 

=

Dave

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C75D68.69BE7560-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 06:03:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23E2iiT016170; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 06:02:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23E2h5j016135; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 06:02:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 06:02:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:02:19 -0600 Message-ID: <002801c75d9c$97e05010$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C75D6A.4D45E010" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AcddMQkNQ1fvFmUwRb6JuUQjN9D6fAAae4MA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73341 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C75D6A.4D45E010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, > Ok, that didn't take long. > I am after skimming (very lightly) the 3 links unsure what experiments your theory is based on. I am also not sure it said anything about how to make a simple device to output free energy or create (so-called) antigravity. > Does it explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG devices to numerous to list? > Is your aether largely entrained by matter? Assuming it is how can it be motivated to flow through matter? If it is what effects will occur, will spins be aligned? Will fields (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether. > If the aether is compressed what will happen? (many experiments indicate antigravity results) And how could the aether be compressed? > Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the aether the source of inertia? > Can matters coupling to the aether be changed? > I seriously don't think you have answered any of these questions. > It seems all you do is explain the mundane. Sorry, John, I have been through this a hundred times already and am not interested in your particular attitude. First off, I quantified exactly what it is you already believe, and now you plan to play me into explaining everything to you in detail. Many of your questions above were answered in the paper, A New Foundation for Physics. The paper was written because people had asked me for a synopsis of the theory. Twenty seven pages was the shortest I could write a basic synopsis. If the synopsis does not interest you, then too bad. Just go on ignoring my work. I have a book that goes into much more detail, but I don't want to next be accused of trying to sell books. This theory is far more developed than you can pick up by speed-reading a twenty seven page paper, which is itself just an introductory paper. It would be just as unfair for me to judge modern physics based upon a speed-read of a high school general science book. I'm already into the design and construction phase of various related experiments and being invited to speak before qualified scientists. I make myself available to seriously interested persons, but I don't do the "poodle jumping through the flaming hoop act" anymore. If you are not seriously interested in studying the Aether Physics Model, then it is you who can remain with the mundane and insane physics you so despise. Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C75D6A.4D45E010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = John,

 

> Ok, that didn't = take long.

> I am = after skimming (very lightly) the 3 links unsure what experiments your theory = is based on.
I am also not sure it said anything about how to make a simple device to = output free energy or create (so-called) antigravity.

> Does it = explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG devices to = numerous to list?

> Is your = aether largely entrained by matter? Assuming it is how can it be motivated to = flow through matter?
If it is what effects will occur, will spins be aligned? Will fields = (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether.

> If the = aether is compressed what will happen? (many experiments indicate antigravity = results)
And how could the aether be compressed?

> Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the aether the source of = inertia?

> Can = matters coupling to the aether be changed?

> I = seriously don't think you have answered any of these questions.
> It = seems all you do is explain the mundane.

Sorry, John, I have been through = this a hundred times already and am not interested in your particular = attitude.  First off, I quantified exactly what it is you already believe, and now = you plan to play me into explaining everything to you in detail.  Many of = your questions above were answered in the paper, A New Foundation for = Physics. 

 

=

The paper was written because = people had asked me for a synopsis of the theory.  Twenty seven pages was the shortest I could write a basic synopsis.  If the synopsis does not interest you, then too bad.  Just go on ignoring my = work.

 

=

I have a book that goes into much = more detail, but I don’t want to next be accused of trying to sell books. 

 

=

This theory is far more developed = than you can pick up by speed-reading a twenty seven page paper, which is itself = just an introductory paper.  It would be just as unfair for me to judge = modern physics based upon a speed-read of a high school general science = book. 

 

=

I’m already into the design = and construction phase of various related experiments and being invited to = speak before qualified scientists.  I make myself available to seriously interested persons, but I don’t do the “poodle jumping = through the flaming hoop act” anymore.  If you are not seriously = interested in studying the Aether Physics Model, then it is you who can remain with = the mundane and insane physics you so despise.

 

=

Dave

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C75D6A.4D45E010-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 08:09:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23G9pSt007835; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:09:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23G9hhY007778; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:09:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:09:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E99DC3.9000504@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 11:09:39 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> <45E8DE0D.9010507@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73342 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I will let you have the last shot; I won't be replying on this topic in this mailing list after this message. John Berry wrote: > On 3/3/07, *Stephen A. Lawrence* > wrote: > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > It is the only possible model as SR is illogical > > Well, that sure shoots down SR. > > > SR has many logical inconsistencies If you believe that, then it's pointless to continue this discussion. SR is exactly as consistent as linear algebra. If SR has internal inconsistencies then so does linear algebra. If you don't understand that simple fact, then you don't understand SR, and if you don't understand it then you're certainly not in a position to judge its internal consistency. > There are many situations where SR simply can't work though I can't > think of anything less fun than discussing these issues with someone who > seemingly has no interest is the subject But you see, I agree. But from where I'm standing, it is /you/ who has no interest in actually learning the subject. I've spent years studying this, and months arguing with people whose views are very much like yours (in venues other than Vortex), and I no longer find such debates entertaining. To learn relativity is to understand it, and if you did that, then you would see that it's not internally inconsistent. However, that takes a lot more effort than just calling it "illogical". SR may be wrong -- which is something to be determined by experiment -- but it is not inconsistent. because if you did you would > agree rather than quip. > > > > > If so, how you do you account for the results of the > Michelson-Morley > > and Sagnac experiments in your model? These two brought down the > > "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic > theory. (Or do > > you deny that MMX actually got a null result?) > > > > > > Oh boy, do your own research. > > OK, I guess that answers the question. > > > I guess you didn't read the next part where I did in fact go over the > reasons why the MMX in no way disproves an entrained aether. Oh, yes, you said "maybe" their result wasn't really null, "maybe" their experiment was highly flawed, and "maybe" "many" "better" experiments give a nonnull result. AFAIK the last "maybe" is flatly false; their experiment has been repeated many times in a number of forms and the results are consistently null. The first "maybe" -- that their original result was nonnull -- is also false, in that their result was null to within their error bars. You also said an "entrained" ether predicts a null result -- that's true, but a fully dragged ether runs into trouble with the Sagnac experiment. Sagnac requires Fresnel dragging, which is a very particular form of partial entrainment, to be consistent with an aether, but that, in turn, is inconsistent with the null result of MMX. (And the Sagnac effect is used in commercial devices; there's no debate at all about the result of that particular experiment. Your sloppy notion of some kind of entrainment which would just happen to be consistent with MMX in a basement doesn't make it in the face of the Sagnac results.) Alternatively, you can explain both experiments with a Lorentz ether, but then you find yourself with a theory which matches SR in every testable prediction. > > You seem to be more interested in cheap shots than science or truth. You misunderstand. I'm interested in science and math, as well as truth. IMO your position isn't based on any of those. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 08:16:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23GFr0K015359; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:15:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23GFpxj015334; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:15:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:15:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E99F33.7020302@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 11:15:47 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <001701c75d98$73334320$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001701c75d98$73334320$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73343 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you for the civil and cogent reply; I'll dig through it and respond in detail later this weekend; don't have time right now. I also don't have time to dig into your paper right now, but will tackle that later also. I'm actually interested in alternative theories of this-and-that, and Miller is certainly a fascinating character. (It just sets my teeth on edge when someone opens a discussion of this sort with a blanket assertion that SR is "internally inconsistent", which, thankfully, you didn't do.) David Thomson wrote: > Hi Stephen, > >> When you say "Aether Physics model", do you mean aether as in > "luminiferous aether", the hypothetical medium in which electromagnetic > waves propagate? > > When I say "Aether Physics Model," I mean a fluid-dynamic-quantum Aether, > just as it is explained in the paper. > > If so, how you do you account for the results of the Michelson-Morley > and Sagnac experiments in your model? > > The theory I present induces upon the empirical data only, there is no > guesswork, postulates, or other hypothetical foundation. As such, the > theory I produce fully agrees with the MMX experiment as it was conducted as > well as the Sagnac experiment. In fact, it also agrees with General > Relativity theory. > >> These two brought down the > "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic theory. (Or do > you deny that MMX actually got a null result?) > > First off, Michelson, Morley, and Miller all deny they got a null result. > The so-called "null result" is a result with a magnitude much smaller than > was expected for a rigid Aether. The Aether Physics Model reveals a fluid > Aether. Dayton Miller spent over twenty years of his life repeating the > measurements and continually observed results, dependent upon the density of > the material around him. > > The Aether Physics Model shows that subatomic particles exist with a quantum > of Aether. The denser the matter, the less Aether-drift will occur in that > region. Michelson and Morley first conducted their experiments in a > basement, Dayton Miller later conducted his experiment on top of Mt. Wilson. > > > Also, the question can be thrown back at you. If the Aether did not exist, > how did Maxwell, Fresnel, and Bernoulli get positive results before Special > Relativity came along? > > Are you aware that Einstein wrote a paper about the Aether when he was 16, > which is substantially supportive of my work? Are you aware that after > Einstein developed GR he again stated there had to be some kind of Aether? > > Who exactly says the Aether does not exist and has evidence to support the > non-existence of Aether? > > The evidence for Aether's existence is abundant. Magnetic, electric, and > gravitational fields are direct manifestations of the Aether. Electrostatic > charge comes from Aether, not matter. Solitons and phonons are direct > evidence for the existence of Aether. BECs are direct evidence for the > existence of Aether. Frame dragging is direct evidence for the existence of > Aether. The curvature of space-time is direct evidence for the existence of > Aether. Aether, especially as I have quantified it, is a verified fact. > The only thing holding it back is the willingness of modern science to > accept it. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 08:30:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23GU2aA022533; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:30:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23GNxfF019114; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:23:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:23:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=J2ZC7ybbol+zCRfoiw4DUeniMUXkxUWpexAAm/Wc1t5wszgEFiPy7tEzr3SjBnp29RKx1+yUQV0gYpd86pJH2x+x1EDyAmZJm51TN4iMEEHNPNmXaDzbsHl8UqAtuVRa/NjDv2I/YNsph65ah+gvrEB4/4Tjix3CZkq3TQyrla4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OLdSEwESQYljTtSTICgEJZu5qwE2bjyK8p6I/uhFJ/N4VkL0f1VoVL9p6hZyoh/zdhMNzLR6m3PSz4Mw23xUQ0uVphdVIFm5EA3C1dXBSpqy6sZzNyh4iG2Yvo7ksSsEhi8YcRlkVLQUkYV//oeyIn1EVLg9mCGQNQKkezl1UQc= Message-ID: <45E9A10F.2010702@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 08:23:43 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73344 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Nick Palmer wrote: >>> From John Berry's "we can do what ever we want if we just get the old >>> rocks >> out of our head" message:- >> >> <> possible trumps the evidence I'll never know>> Quite so. Tell Paul... >> >> Paul Lowrance has come up with a theory that if he exploits a certain >> phenomenon he will get free energy from ambient heat. He has no >> evidence that he can do this - only his belief in his theory. > > It's also something which is discussed in sophomore EE classes FWIW. I > don't think Paul realizes that. I think Paul's aware of it. ;-) Sorry, but I really fail to see the logic in assuming --> I could not possible see something that a world of EE's have not seen. If we follow that line of thinking then we assume no single person will ever discover anything. It's easy to place such faith in the science community, but that's just not realistic. For example, my conversations with EE's on a forum discovered that nearly all EE's have an incomplete understanding of real random noise. Most do not understand that true noise has no upper crest limit. I debated this with several EE's on a forum until they saw their error when I broke the problem down in simple frequency spectrum and phase angle. Another example is every EE I've ever talked to thinks **all** real resistance has thermal noise. This is not true. Radiation resistance for instance has no known thermal noise. I can hand you an wide BW antenna consisting of thick metal tubing that has several thousand ohms radiation resistance, but the only thermal noise you'll find on the antenna is due to the resistance of the metal itself, which is infinitesimally small compared to the radiation resistance. One EE disbelieved me so much that he still thinks that a 50 ohm antenna given the BW range will have the amount of thermal noise in accordance to --> V = sqrt(4 K T R dF)-- it simply does not. >> He has been irritating people on this forum for quite some time. He >> maybe does not realise that he is not the first type to come on here >> with some idea that they believe is brilliant that the whole of the >> rest of humanity has not spotted. They normally stick around for a >> while, get their ideas repeatedly shot full of holes by most of the >> good minds on here > > Actually we're supposed to exercise a bit of restraint on this list and > not shoot too many holes in theories even if they look like easy > targets. At least, that's my understanding of the Vortex rules -- it's > supposed to be a safe place to air ideas which are not fully baked, and > criticism is supposed to be constructive, if possible, rather than > destructive. Holes, says Nick? I'm still waiting for anyone to point out even a single hole in my claims. Please, by all means, someone point out the hole(s). I'm not running away with my tail between my legs. I challenge anyone! If I'm wrong then man I'll admit it in a heartbeat. > It's hard sometimes, when people come in with totally goofy > misconceptions and a condescending and insulting attitude toward anyone > who's actually invested the time and effort to understand some small > piece of modern physics, but whatever ... most of the regulars here are > at least polite about it when someone disagrees with them. Some would say that's passive aggressive Stephen A. Lawrence. People will wonder if you were referring to someone in particular, namely one Paul Lowrance, lol. People will wonder who you thought had "totally goofy misconceptions and a condescending and insulting attitude ..." Please let me know if you ever want to debate the idea that your passive aggressive ways of life is better than my direct ways of life. You name the forum of your liking or we can do it in person. Just perhaps, just perhaps society is wrong on this. Just perhaps society is slowly changing toward my methodology where people are upfront and honest, and drop the passive aggressive tactics, silent jabs, etc. etc. What you call "insulting" I call honesty and speaking my mind. On occasion you have said you're sorry if that hurts my feelings. That's just it my brother. Please understand it does not hurt my feelings when you speak your mind. Sure, society has programmed you otherwise. It is indeed a rough and dog eat dog world out there. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 09:23:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23HNIwX000777; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:23:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23HNGqt000765; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:23:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:23:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:22:52 -0600 Message-ID: <004c01c75db8$9c9e1580$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <45E99F33.7020302@pobox.com> Thread-Index: Acddr7WOiHaZt0QnTCyhIMBEr6A0RQACBe2w Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73345 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, > (It just sets my teeth on edge when someone opens a discussion of this sort with a blanket assertion that SR is "internally inconsistent", which, thankfully, you didn't do.) The Aether Physics Model stands on its own. It is not necessary for me to trash SR by pointing out its major flaws, which I can easily do. I find that people heavily invested in SR are unwilling to admit the simple and obvious flaws when I point them out. On the other hand, the Aether Physics Model solidly backs General Relativity. It derives the GR simplified field equation in terms of charges from first principles. Einstein's version of GR presents in terms of mass, and is a tortured process. But tortured or not, the concept that space-time interacts with matter is valid in both physics models. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 10:02:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23I26Qw009812; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:02:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23I24vY009792; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:02:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:02:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E9B817.6090506@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:01:59 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <45E9A10F.2010702@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E9A10F.2010702@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73346 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > It's hard sometimes, when people come in with totally goofy > > misconceptions and a condescending and insulting attitude toward anyone > > who's actually invested the time and effort to understand some small > > piece of modern physics, but whatever ... most of the regulars here are > > at least polite about it when someone disagrees with them. > > > Some would say that's passive aggressive Stephen A. Lawrence. Just a little bit of an ad hominem? I guess "some" means you, eh? > People > will wonder if you were referring to someone in particular, namely one > Paul Lowrance, lol. If the shoe fits... :-) But actually, I wasn't thinking primarily of you. I've invested very little effort in understanding solid state physics, which is where your issues are, and while you certainly resort to ad hominems you have not attacked me _because_ I had learned a little electrical engineering. > People will wonder who you thought had "totally > goofy misconceptions and a condescending and insulting attitude ..." They can go on wondering. > > Please let me know if you ever want to debate the idea that your passive > aggressive ways of life is better than my direct ways of life. Have you completely dropped the science arguments, and totally replaced them with ad hominem attacks? Go call someone else out; I'm not interested. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 10:07:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23I7Yat012897; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:07:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23I7Wq6012869; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:07:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:07:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45E9B960.10506@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:07:28 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <004c01c75db8$9c9e1580$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004c01c75db8$9c9e1580$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73347 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Stephen, > >> (It just sets my teeth on edge when someone opens a discussion of this > sort with a blanket assertion that SR is "internally inconsistent", > which, thankfully, you didn't do.) > > The Aether Physics Model stands on its own. It is not necessary for me to > trash SR by pointing out its major flaws, which I can easily do. I find > that people heavily invested in SR are unwilling to admit the simple and > obvious flaws when I point them out. Oh jeeze :-) Oh, well, I vented all my spleen already today on other poor innocents, I'll let this go... > > On the other hand, the Aether Physics Model solidly backs General > Relativity. Say what?? SR is a subset of GR -- it is exactly equal to general relativity in the absence of mass (flat "background" space). I can't imagine how you believe you can have GR without SR. > It derives the GR simplified field equation in terms of charges > from first principles. Do you mean the linearized theory? Didn't follow this. > Einstein's version of GR presents in terms of mass, > and is a tortured process. But tortured or not, the concept that space-time > interacts with matter is valid in both physics models. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 11:01:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23J1CW5009560; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:01:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23J1BnD009512; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:01:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:01:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=c8qM9bBTDiWTsCx/+fyH4ZyH9kgsHRkMo9Y3VVBDPpKOsazhRf2iYxNm+CmR8fgUd4hORCbQwodEm3OWT+8LFiDIutIcyr8VZ9ofS56KVYuQp09sCkHv4qoYOs/4+eytwtpSGZg5rohUuWOpCFQ86pY7g7HkMpG/GUEhqZT2LrM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=SMz5Sav+IEmM3EZg58ntpNfZbeYUTZQEbVQd4We2jaR6q9iWOxDFfecMnHaUKZqefg93dRa8dzavQDdC0CIl2LBTW9Fbhoa5YIYH0LHSwRnNt5mvrMIS9P3qtodEdMy8lzzB7N1LAd35vN37iYjifQiCaEQD5kk2LxrZrflvBmQ= Message-ID: <45E9C5E5.8050005@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 11:00:53 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <45E9A10F.2010702@gmail.com> <45E9B817.6090506@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E9B817.6090506@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73348 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> Some would say that's passive aggressive Stephen A. Lawrence. > > Just a little bit of an ad hominem? I guess "some" means you, eh? Yes, I think you are passive aggressive. I think you have a negative interpretation to my statements. I am very direct and address what people say-- not ad hominem. > you have not attacked me _because_ I had learned a little electrical engineering. Attack is your POV. I call it how I see it, state my mind, and do not make statements to hurt people. Rather, such statements are what I believe. I think you left the discussion because I found direct error in your science. >> Please let me know if you ever want to debate the idea that your >> passive aggressive ways of life is better than my direct ways of life. > > Have you completely dropped the science arguments, and totally replaced > them with ad hominem attacks? No I have not resorted to ad hominem. Ad hominem is when a person attacks for the purpose of not address the issue. Show me what I am not addressing? Please by all means, back up your statement. IMHO your statement is pure fuzzy logic. I put forth effort to directly address your statements, and did indeed address your statements regarding my theory. No I am not perfect and cannot reply to every one of your sentences due to time! Furthermore, look at my recent posts and you'll see I am challenging everyone to find holes in my claims. It's funny that you have not replied to such a challenge. Rather, of recent you prefer only to reply to my philosophy statements, lol. If you want to continue these personal issue then please send me a private email and we'll post here the final results. Yes, that's another challenge for you to back up your words. I have been waiting for someone to answer my question to nail down his or her stance, but it seems nobody is perhaps brave enough. Once people answer the question then I will provide a specific circuit example demonstrating how energy captured from thermal noise can be stored in a capacitor, which is a form of battery. So then answer this Stephen A. Lawrence --> If I can demonstrate how you can permanently store energy in to a capacitor taken from ambient temperature then for the sake of spreading truth will you public admit I am correct? No I am not trying to trick you with temperature gradients or radiation from an external source such as a radio station or electric ground potential gradients, etc. etc. I am talking about a device that utilizes thermal voltage noise at room temperature-- Vn = sqrt(4 K T R dF) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 11:10:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23JATbp016817; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:10:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23JAROH016797; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:10:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:10:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07b001c75dc7$e1f76370$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <45E9A10F.2010702@gmail.com> <45E9B817.6090506@pobox.com> <45E9C5E5.8050005@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:12:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l23JAPlT016780 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73349 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul stop antagonizing people it's not fun any more. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > >> Some would say that's passive aggressive Stephen A. Lawrence. > > > > Just a little bit of an ad hominem? I guess "some" means you, eh? > > > Yes, I think you are passive aggressive. I think you have a negative > interpretation to my statements. I am very direct and address what people say-- > not ad hominem. > > > > > > you have not attacked me _because_ I had learned a little electrical engineering. > > > Attack is your POV. I call it how I see it, state my mind, and do not make > statements to hurt people. Rather, such statements are what I believe. > > I think you left the discussion because I found direct error in your science. > > > > > >> Please let me know if you ever want to debate the idea that your > >> passive aggressive ways of life is better than my direct ways of life. > > > > Have you completely dropped the science arguments, and totally replaced > > them with ad hominem attacks? > > > No I have not resorted to ad hominem. Ad hominem is when a person attacks for > the purpose of not address the issue. Show me what I am not addressing? Please > by all means, back up your statement. IMHO your statement is pure fuzzy logic. > I put forth effort to directly address your statements, and did indeed address > your statements regarding my theory. No I am not perfect and cannot reply to > every one of your sentences due to time! Furthermore, look at my recent posts > and you'll see I am challenging everyone to find holes in my claims. It's funny > that you have not replied to such a challenge. Rather, of recent you prefer only > to reply to my philosophy statements, lol. > > If you want to continue these personal issue then please send me a private email > and we'll post here the final results. Yes, that's another challenge for you to > back up your words. > > > I have been waiting for someone to answer my question to nail down his or her > stance, but it seems nobody is perhaps brave enough. Once people answer the > question then I will provide a specific circuit example demonstrating how energy > captured from thermal noise can be stored in a capacitor, which is a form of > battery. So then answer this Stephen A. Lawrence --> > > If I can demonstrate how you can permanently store energy in to a capacitor > taken from ambient temperature then for the sake of spreading truth will you > public admit I am correct? No I am not trying to trick you with temperature > gradients or radiation from an external source such as a radio station or > electric ground potential gradients, etc. etc. I am talking about a device that > utilizes thermal voltage noise at room temperature-- Vn = sqrt(4 K T R dF) > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 11:21:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23JL7dL016322; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:21:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23JL62f016308; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:21:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:21:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iEgsBMDdbuvyZzNLf5M3btISQXHUZ2279CmCHiL4e3kKYOsFiQa47FXIglLi84+JKoupubMTX+c3eMmesSUxTxkYWsYptIeIjn9BbkNU3hckK3SPNNUmja9B+k7ICQygRBcN6jpMMTIOEgIm/JTml0IOon18+qJwTKFMrYeOCpU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jaXVWQGfjrN1AWL+vrn7z7eKzofbrerlpFzu9GQ4ng0aiVOtfAdXhIvmS/y+L27+T+yU+jg51htTqJa4c+V8Q/yxMikNusLz8JhAhuUX2KAWzo1g3ElTod94HfKD3ZGIK7ZgRB1rgmT6zogIPaUConsiQNsAeN6AED91x/yZuds= Message-ID: <45E9CA93.2000303@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 11:20:51 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <45E9A10F.2010702@gmail.com> <45E9B817.6090506@pobox.com> <45E9C5E5.8050005@gmail.com> <07b001c75dc7$e1f76370$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <07b001c75dc7$e1f76370$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73350 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Paul stop antagonizing people it's not fun any more. Michel, could you please stop the personal stuff. What gives you the right to post a personal statement as above while I do not have the right? I will debate anyone on this matter in private. You think you are completely incorrect. Please, lets take this up in private and we'll post the results. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 11:26:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23JQ7SA018381; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:26:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23JQ5C9018354; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:26:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:26:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iykTC5y2KGhQghjLq3nPCEBc555mc4icQ5c/NfuT1I9pYbKpi+DnJILa6uuLOTrnoCSoZ54LHy2lPEnGEHhpA7pgtvYzlPsYVfXPsCI9NjxXlfbE2Da0Ldi2Gkc0xmpR1eALm11YMnpTNxwfRQr5ZK6kxn//7gnSR1E6s9uNVCY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HvdIUrE8j+ad3zXwaH2naskYbtiMi81+OfZbze7karSUAzsIgrxAZ0XV1w8CPTZsXGQffNkGas7IddmjEIwP2aAnRt4166mb2xqgZexCcEb4DTr3+l4WKtHxfpvG/WAtae/dVrl5mwM/A7hwiPEAlNEoqJqbxPrUF0gXwPUcUIs= Message-ID: <45E9CBBD.2060604@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 11:25:49 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <45E9A10F.2010702@gmail.com> <45E9B817.6090506@pobox.com> <45E9C5E5.8050005@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45E9C5E5.8050005@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73351 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Nick Palmer wrote: > >>> From John Berry's "we can do what ever we want if we just get the old > >>> rocks > >> out of our head" message:- > >> > >> < >> possible trumps the evidence I'll never know>> Quite so. Tell Paul... > >> > >> Paul Lowrance has come up with a theory that if he exploits a certain > >> phenomenon he will get free energy from ambient heat. He has no > >> evidence that he can do this - only his belief in his theory. > > > > It's also something which is discussed in sophomore EE classes FWIW. I > > don't think Paul realizes that. > > > I think Paul's[I] aware of it. ;-) Sorry, but I really fail to see the > logic in assuming --> I could not possible see something that a world of > EE's have not seen. If we follow that line of thinking then we assume > no single person will ever discover anything. It's easy to place such > faith in the science community, but that's just not realistic. > > For example, my conversations with EE's on a forum discovered that > nearly all EE's have an incomplete understanding of real random noise. > Most do not understand that true noise has no upper crest limit. I > debated this with several EE's on a forum until they saw their error > when I broke the problem down in simple frequency spectrum and phase angle. > > Another example is every EE I've ever talked to thinks **all** real > resistance has thermal noise. This is not true. Radiation resistance > for instance has no known thermal noise. I can hand you an wide BW > antenna consisting of thick metal tubing that has several thousand ohms > radiation resistance, but the only thermal noise you'll find on the > antenna is due to the resistance of the metal itself, which is > infinitesimally small compared to the radiation resistance. One EE > disbelieved me so much that he still thinks that a 50 ohm antenna given > the BW range will have the amount of thermal noise in accordance to --> > V = sqrt(4 K T R dF)-- it simply does not. > > > > > > >> He has been irritating people on this forum for quite some time. He > >> maybe does not realise that he is not the first type to come on here > >> with some idea that they believe is brilliant that the whole of the > >> rest of humanity has not spotted. They normally stick around for a > >> while, get their ideas repeatedly shot full of holes by most of the > >> good minds on here > > > > Actually we're supposed to exercise a bit of restraint on this list and > > not shoot too many holes in theories even if they look like easy > > targets. At least, that's my understanding of the Vortex rules -- it's > > supposed to be a safe place to air ideas which are not fully baked, and > > criticism is supposed to be constructive, if possible, rather than > > destructive. > > > Holes, says Nick? I'm still waiting for anyone to point out even a > single hole in my claims. Please, by all means, someone point out the > hole(s). I'm not running away with my tail between my legs. I challenge > anyone! If I'm wrong then man I'll admit it in a heartbeat. > > > > > > > It's hard sometimes, when people come in with totally goofy > > misconceptions and a condescending and insulting attitude toward anyone > > who's actually invested the time and effort to understand some small > > piece of modern physics, but whatever ... most of the regulars here are > > at least polite about it when someone disagrees with them. > > > Some would say that's passive aggressive Stephen A. Lawrence. People > will wonder if you were referring to someone in particular, namely one > Paul Lowrance, lol. People will wonder who you thought had "totally > goofy misconceptions and a condescending and insulting attitude ..." > > Please let me know if you ever want to debate the idea that your passive > aggressive ways of life is better than my direct ways of life. You name > the forum of your liking or we can do it in person. Just perhaps, just > perhaps society is wrong on this. Just perhaps society is slowly > changing toward my methodology where people are upfront and honest, and > drop the passive aggressive tactics, silent jabs, etc. etc. What you > call "insulting" I call honesty and speaking my mind. On occasion you > have said you're sorry if that hurts my feelings. That's just it my > brother. Please understand it does not hurt my feelings when you speak > your mind. Sure, society has programmed you otherwise. It is indeed a > rough and dog eat dog world out there. > > > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance I for one am tired of people avoiding the main discussion. ... Talking about ad hominem. Notice my tech talk above on various issues from radiation resistance not have thermal noise to real noise not having an upper crest limit. Stephen A. Lawrence, I really think we should take our ad hominem discussion in private and then post the results, because IMHO it's really sad when all you'll reply to is personal statements and then accuse me of resorting to ad hominem. Read the past posts and see who is avoiding the substance. That's why I always recommend people spend time doing some self-contemplation each night before retiring to bed. Again, this is yet another plea to get back on topic and forget about our philosophical difference. Just please accept what I've stated so many times already, which is do not place any personal attacks in to my statements. What I say is backed by very little negative emotions, as they are statements I truly believe in. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 12:02:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23K2K3V007877; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:02:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23K2J97007864; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:02:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:02:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nCH41lykBX07YCQmAS03meoYOQloU+eTN/Og4blltPnu6U2TZiUYenpVKGn2cP3x2lBtIs12rkNV7lT6rAEkAOZ1joaZKqlvjUfAMkwsXZ7IceWvkzy35VStnobbRzyb8OFTu2XhWR+MbjKjaK/vRTmCwsym3PfwImRjE3Sd3Mc= ; X-YMail-OSG: XnbtBDUVM1nrfh6cZtdV8u7EKdYz9irBAJPK15_98r2YaAHGr4qnaqLwHBqBm0QJV2OG9dL4IoK9kQ8YQL2crevRacEXEKto7EP8SebrU3eDIn1Rd73DTVLhtw_xC_0cVoXAyU5yfb75HO8- Message-ID: <45E9D443.2010203@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 12:02:11 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0L1whC.A.q6B.KRd6FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73352 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis Status: O X-Status: This is the only valid scientific way that I know of, to use ambient or environmental heat, to achieve (arguable) overunity. Any school kid can do this on a very small scale (few bubbles), but if you are only looking simply for a single example for that contention, for whatever purposes - then this is it ;-) About every 6 months or so (used to be yearly), this subject keeps reappearing on Vo and other sites. Ah...Ultra high efficiency electrolysis - so close and yet so far away -- as it is involved tangentially in LENR / CF, and also in the Thermacore-type cell (hydrino). Anytime protons are involved, ZPE also comes into play, in the minds of some theorists. Without high efficiency electrolysis, there can be no valid "hydrogen economy" but with it, there can. It is that simple. There are always better uses for storing or using electricity - than splitting water, unless you can do that at about double the normal Faradaic rate. Ultra high efficiency electrolysis is the least controversial solution to so many geo-eco-political problems involving transportation fuel, or renewables but unlike other schemes, there is already in place valid scientific evidence for this "extra" or free-energy source. Not saying "uncontroversial" just "valid" to the point of view of the writer. Fusion or hydrinos may not be OU in any scientific sense, but they are clearly "free energy" in the sense of being exploitable on a small scale at higher efficiency than combustion, and without the toxicity of nuclear energy, as we know it. Never mind that the LENRers don't trust the Hydino-Heads, and vice versa... The answers are out there, and they involve both camps. And for that reason, there are probably more water-splitters on this forum per capita than anywhere else on the net, short of the blind-leading-the-blind Joe-Cell participants. Between all the water splitters and all the hair-splitters, we could set up a chapter of Slitters-Anonymous on Vo - 12 steps to easy OU recovery, so to speak [tried that quip a few years ago, but got no LOL's]. "Electrolysis via pH differential" is the new paper in question. This was posted on another forum, and I haven't got hold of it yet, but the paper seems to have implications for hydrino exploitation, and for getting a peroxide by-product and hydrogen out of an electrolysis cell, instead of H2 and O2. This is highly advantageous. It is almost identical to the work in India of Prof R. P. Viswanath of Indian Institute of Technology, Madras, covered in a thread hear a couple of years ago. He was successful in using a compartmentalized electrolytic cell - and splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen at a lower potential of around 0.90 V compared to the 1.23V theoretical minimum. This is a fairly high and proven COP, derived from ambient heat -- but catch-22 the reaction rate is snail paced. But - he did not fully exploit the highest pH differentials. Anyone, even me, can accomplish this dual-cell thing on a small scale, but doing it commercially on a large scale is another problem altogether. The present paper dates back to 1981, and may have influenced Viswanath. Omar Teschke from Brazil found you "should" get even better effects when you separate the anode from the cathode & alter the pH much more strongly. The paper is accessible (for a price): http://www.springerlink.com/content/p6t486k838q11784/ Theoretically you can do overunity electrolysis of water at STP with 1.23V, if heat is continually added (i.e. the process draws heat from the surroundings & cools down). With no heat the thermoneutral potential (i.e. voltage you actually require) is 1.47V. All of this is muddled by the situation of getting peroxide as an intermediary, which makes everything look better that H2/O2 (both the manufacture and the conversion efficiency is increased with H2/HOOH as the end products) Omar Teschke worked out theoretically that oxygen comes out of a dual electrolyte cell when the voltage is only 0.8V IF (big if) the pH is 14 (i.e. totally alkaline)leaving peroxide and little O2. Whereas, at pH 0 (i.e. totally acid), hydrogen is theoretically released at the same low half-cell potential. Anyway, he "predicted" but did not experimentally confirm that it should be possible to decompose water with only around 0.4V if you can separate effectively the anode from the cathode BUT keeping each in highly differing pH solutions, and heated, and with adequate charge transfer (via protons). A self-powering situation for automotive would need to be around this level, and that is so advantageous that the addition of radioactivity should [and will] be contemplated in the future. Few can rationally object to using radioactive waste for this purpose, rather than storing it in a cave. Like it or NOT, we have this sour-lemon radwaste problem now, and perhaps we should be turning lemons into lemonade. The main problem, as always, is in finding a suitable separation membrane. The problem is a function of dielectric strength, and partly in corrosion resistance. For that reason - and with all the new emphasis on batteries theses days (EEStor) and the emphasis on ultracapacitors and dielectrics, one might suspect that a technical solution to the membrane-problem may not be far away, in the form of barium titanate or boron nitride. It should be noted that boron fibers are available now (used in high-tech golf equipment, believe it or not) and that a thin tightly wovern fabric of boron fibers, when nitrided and then coated on the acid side (cathode) with a thin proton conductor, might be an ideal solution. Teschke made a prototype cell, with an available (less than satisfactory) membrane to separate the solutions, but he didn't get a decent rate of gas production until around 1.2V. This is in keeping with the results of Prof R. P. Viswanath - who in fact did better. Neither used radioactivity, such as plated thorium for the electrodes. So, at this stage, it is one more small step in the progression to what may be a back-door into a hydrogen economy. The problems of keeping two solutions of massively different pHs in virtual contact with each other is daunting. And for getting a boost from alpha emission (or rad-waste) the problem is political... or getting a boost from LENR or the hydrino, the problem is technological and funding. But the only way that a hydrogen economy can ever take hold is that you make the fuel "on the fly" -in situ- in the automobile using parastic energy refluxing and ultra high efficiency electrolysis. In that case, your main ecological detriment is the heat. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 12:32:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23KWPjZ014041; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:32:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23KWNr6014030; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:32:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:32:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jW3EaAwsCb0lWGzD3B69nDwBp8ZZqYS+k1mbhFM+9hmMf5g1pgaoYj3C8PIdvw0j; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:31:59 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <45E9D443.2010203@pacbell.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609c23fb06e173a44270f1728d101b35240350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73353 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones; Nice, but I personally do not feel that the issue is that of OU H2 production to seal a Hydrogen fueled environment. I have stated on vortex before that the problem is not in getting the Hydrogen (nullifying Faraday), but what do you do with it when you get it? I will stick my big fat foot in my mouth here, but lets assume I can provide Hydrogen from water in excess of COP>1. Now what are we going to do with it where the conversion does not eat up this gain? ICE engine is out!, at least in present configuration and will take years to change once they start, unless we turn it all over to Toyota or some other off island company. Fuel Cell is out, poor recovery, waste in general. Now this may be because no one wants to make a good economical cell (like solar cells, always promised and never seen) of it is again years off. Bottom line is if Hydrogen could for pennies be produced (forget Faraday), how do you get back the energy without dropping the COP<1 during the conversion? I have looked at just burning the stuff to boil water for a steam engine running a generator, what a loss indeed. If some one would give me an off the shelf way to use the Hydrogen that would power a generator and not dump the gain, I want to talk.... -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 2:02 PM To: vortex Subject: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis This is the only valid scientific way that I know of, to use ambient or environmental heat, to achieve (arguable) overunity. Any school kid can do this on a very small scale (few bubbles), but if you are only looking simply for a single example for that contention, for whatever purposes - then this is it ;-) About every 6 months or so (used to be yearly), this subject keeps reappearing on Vo and other sites. Ah...Ultra high efficiency electrolysis - so close and yet so far away -- as it is involved tangentially in LENR / CF, and also in the Thermacore-type cell (hydrino). Anytime protons are involved, ZPE also comes into play, in the minds of some theorists. Without high efficiency electrolysis, there can be no valid "hydrogen economy" but with it, there can. It is that simple. There are always better uses for storing or using electricity - than splitting water, unless you can do that at about double the normal Faradaic rate. Ultra high efficiency electrolysis is the least controversial solution to so many geo-eco-political problems involving transportation fuel, or renewables but unlike other schemes, there is already in place valid scientific evidence for this "extra" or free-energy source. Not saying "uncontroversial" just "valid" to the point of view of the writer. Fusion or hydrinos may not be OU in any scientific sense, but they are clearly "free energy" in the sense of being exploitable on a small scale at higher efficiency than combustion, and without the toxicity of nuclear energy, as we know it. Never mind that the LENRers don't trust the Hydino-Heads, and vice versa... The answers are out there, and they involve both camps. And for that reason, there are probably more water-splitters on this forum per capita than anywhere else on the net, short of the blind-leading-the-blind Joe-Cell participants. Between all the water splitters and all the hair-splitters, we could set up a chapter of Slitters-Anonymous on Vo - 12 steps to easy OU recovery, so to speak [tried that quip a few years ago, but got no LOL's]. "Electrolysis via pH differential" is the new paper in question. This was posted on another forum, and I haven't got hold of it yet, but the paper seems to have implications for hydrino exploitation, and for getting a peroxide by-product and hydrogen out of an electrolysis cell, instead of H2 and O2. This is highly advantageous. It is almost identical to the work in India of Prof R. P. Viswanath of Indian Institute of Technology, Madras, covered in a thread hear a couple of years ago. He was successful in using a compartmentalized electrolytic cell - and splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen at a lower potential of around 0.90 V compared to the 1.23V theoretical minimum. This is a fairly high and proven COP, derived from ambient heat -- but catch-22 the reaction rate is snail paced. But - he did not fully exploit the highest pH differentials. Anyone, even me, can accomplish this dual-cell thing on a small scale, but doing it commercially on a large scale is another problem altogether. The present paper dates back to 1981, and may have influenced Viswanath. Omar Teschke from Brazil found you "should" get even better effects when you separate the anode from the cathode & alter the pH much more strongly. The paper is accessible (for a price): http://www.springerlink.com/content/p6t486k838q11784/ Theoretically you can do overunity electrolysis of water at STP with 1.23V, if heat is continually added (i.e. the process draws heat from the surroundings & cools down). With no heat the thermoneutral potential (i.e. voltage you actually require) is 1.47V. All of this is muddled by the situation of getting peroxide as an intermediary, which makes everything look better that H2/O2 (both the manufacture and the conversion efficiency is increased with H2/HOOH as the end products) Omar Teschke worked out theoretically that oxygen comes out of a dual electrolyte cell when the voltage is only 0.8V IF (big if) the pH is 14 (i.e. totally alkaline)leaving peroxide and little O2. Whereas, at pH 0 (i.e. totally acid), hydrogen is theoretically released at the same low half-cell potential. Anyway, he "predicted" but did not experimentally confirm that it should be possible to decompose water with only around 0.4V if you can separate effectively the anode from the cathode BUT keeping each in highly differing pH solutions, and heated, and with adequate charge transfer (via protons). A self-powering situation for automotive would need to be around this level, and that is so advantageous that the addition of radioactivity should [and will] be contemplated in the future. Few can rationally object to using radioactive waste for this purpose, rather than storing it in a cave. Like it or NOT, we have this sour-lemon radwaste problem now, and perhaps we should be turning lemons into lemonade. The main problem, as always, is in finding a suitable separation membrane. The problem is a function of dielectric strength, and partly in corrosion resistance. For that reason - and with all the new emphasis on batteries theses days (EEStor) and the emphasis on ultracapacitors and dielectrics, one might suspect that a technical solution to the membrane-problem may not be far away, in the form of barium titanate or boron nitride. It should be noted that boron fibers are available now (used in high-tech golf equipment, believe it or not) and that a thin tightly wovern fabric of boron fibers, when nitrided and then coated on the acid side (cathode) with a thin proton conductor, might be an ideal solution. Teschke made a prototype cell, with an available (less than satisfactory) membrane to separate the solutions, but he didn't get a decent rate of gas production until around 1.2V. This is in keeping with the results of Prof R. P. Viswanath - who in fact did better. Neither used radioactivity, such as plated thorium for the electrodes. So, at this stage, it is one more small step in the progression to what may be a back-door into a hydrogen economy. The problems of keeping two solutions of massively different pHs in virtual contact with each other is daunting. And for getting a boost from alpha emission (or rad-waste) the problem is political... or getting a boost from LENR or the hydrino, the problem is technological and funding. But the only way that a hydrogen economy can ever take hold is that you make the fuel "on the fly" -in situ- in the automobile using parastic energy refluxing and ultra high efficiency electrolysis. In that case, your main ecological detriment is the heat. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 12:43:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23KgvxV017607; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:42:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23KguKT017589; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:42:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:42:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:42:27 -0600 Message-ID: <005f01c75dd4$7f43ace0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <45E9B960.10506@pobox.com> Thread-Index: Acddv11fuDJERT8oQYWUFliMHUPsIgAE8oUQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73354 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, >> On the other hand, the Aether Physics Model solidly backs General >> Relativity. > Say what?? SR is a subset of GR -- it is exactly equal to general > relativity in the absence of mass (flat "background" space). Say what?? GR was derived completely independent of SR. The "link" to SR was added later. The original SR paper aimed to show the equivalence of mass and energy. GR shows that space-time influences and is influenced by matter. You can't have matter without mass, so a massless interpretation of GR is complete nonsense. > I can't imagine how you believe you can have GR without SR. I don't see how you believe they have anything in common. >> It derives the GR simplified field equation in terms of charges >> from first principles. > Do you mean the linearized theory? Didn't follow this. The simplified GR field equation is: G = 8pi T where G is the space-time curvature tensor and T is the mass/energy tensor. The Aether Physics Model equivalent is: e^2 = 8pi (a * e.emax^2) where e^2 is spherical electrostatic charge (from the Aether) and e.emax^2 is toroidal electromagnetic charge (from matter). > Einstein's version of GR presents in terms of mass, > and is a tortured process. But tortured or not, the concept that space- > time interacts with matter is valid in both physics models. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 13:14:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23LEKif000830; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:14:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23LEFtr000795; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:14:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:14:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=6Q8EmtAzR75mWAdQ76j99JFAyI0Ty9Ds82qB/FMSQPAavttVtthR2vn6tt6f5v2eyz0dtem7RDWyo4S8tNHM20gV4NBGz7j65RBZFWmVS0qFh72Sm58R6HABHjsM1Hz35n4JUCugIHfbBeHNDP8q5VQrWAt7uaUpM2Q6uDNrJyw= ; X-YMail-OSG: dtZpTMYVM1ltiWVijlhCnpPbiQNd1nnuWJNT0fTlT8sFDB6bWaD0rwgTazBwttvwVuRGWTeP4DLn6Z17hWjxGZ5He5JV7n3siBBOIEP3SuBqLz2Q_VMwzVYWrSjoKNirT1BJSdYC1QFQubM- Message-ID: <45E9E520.8030207@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 13:14:08 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73355 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ron, > but lets assume I can provide Hydrogen from water in excess of COP>1. Now what are we going to do with it > where the conversion does not eat up this gain? ICE engine is out! I may have to disagree on this point, as I am optimistically looking for continued advances on several fronts. Yes, fuel cells are out. Huge drain of time and effort. But ... both Ford and BMW have puts tons of money and man-hours into improving the H2 fueled ICE. They are not there yet but they can get a Carnot efficiency of 45% at single engine speed. BMW has gotten over 50%. Now at first blush - this looks to be of no great help because you would need COP>3 or closer to 4 to get anything useful ... even with a (much) larger engine to cover the parasitism ... but there are wildcards which built on the 55% waste heat of those ICE's: 1) thermo-electro-chemical water splitting 2) thermoelectric water radiolysis I don't see either getting close to COP>3 (compared to Faradaic) but... 3) either of the above, using LENR (perhaps Mizuno arc) techniques to provide more energy, and with or without ... 4) turbine/ICE dual engines where split cell water splitting is engineered so that peroxide is produced preferentially (instead of O2) and enriched in situ for use as a monopropellant in the turbine, while the H2 is burned in the ICE (or in a second stage tubine). All of these concepts are using waste heat, but realistically, unless the hydrino, LENR (or something unknown like the Graneau hypothesis) is also at work, and that extra energy can be harnessed as well, then this won't happen. Thermacore and Mizuno presents a good case that it can be done, in principle. But that is a far, far way from doing it now. At this point in time (terrorism concern) radiolysis is out for an automobile, but maybe not for a longer time horizon. The main point is that the USA should be putting the equivalent of the hot fusion budget into this! (including $$$ into your work) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 13:33:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23LXg7Z005236; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:33:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23LXax6005188; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:33:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:33:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tbKJ3xxs/Lu+NO7x2drlTQenRYybpUH/Yh7uZ+SE6Sj77zY0kwAp3V/LAdXS7pEQ; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-reply-to:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:33:13 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-reply-to: <45E9E520.8030207@pacbell.net> Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609156a53e9affced1722bc1c8c2b4a6d13a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73356 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes and no. I will not state a COP figure, but you are a pretty good man on guesses ;-). okay I'm being a bit mean, you are close to factual. Is not my point proven? We have the cart before the horse so to speak? If someone were to present a technology that would offer what we are talking about and the device to utilize it is not currently available, are you under the impression that it would not be swept under the carpet? If someone were today to come forward with Hydrogen production (in quantity) with a COP>1 it has no meaning, none at all, because big corp. and big government will control the outcome. Yet, if some way was available to use the Hydrogen NOW that could be packaged and shown, they could not stop it (my dream at least). If a person could go to Home Depot, Grainger or Cat or John Deer or anyone and get an off the shelf system to use the gas and see the outcome, we have obtained a milestone in Human Evolution. But, I state again that its not possible. So I guess you have your answer, COP>1 and COP<3.75. I know I'm of the MIB fear group, but I just can not think that giving the key away to the palace years in advance will insure the contents will be there when you are ready to move in and enjoy the comfort. You ideas and assessments are correct, yet in Germany and the US Black Nodes they are starting already to get wet under the arms. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 3:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis Ron, > but lets assume I can provide Hydrogen from water in excess of COP>1. Now what are we going to do with it > where the conversion does not eat up this gain? ICE engine is out! I may have to disagree on this point, as I am optimistically looking for continued advances on several fronts. Yes, fuel cells are out. Huge drain of time and effort. But ... both Ford and BMW have puts tons of money and man-hours into improving the H2 fueled ICE. They are not there yet but they can get a Carnot efficiency of 45% at single engine speed. BMW has gotten over 50%. Now at first blush - this looks to be of no great help because you would need COP>3 or closer to 4 to get anything useful ... even with a (much) larger engine to cover the parasitism ... but there are wildcards which built on the 55% waste heat of those ICE's: 1) thermo-electro-chemical water splitting 2) thermoelectric water radiolysis I don't see either getting close to COP>3 (compared to Faradaic) but... 3) either of the above, using LENR (perhaps Mizuno arc) techniques to provide more energy, and with or without ... 4) turbine/ICE dual engines where split cell water splitting is engineered so that peroxide is produced preferentially (instead of O2) and enriched in situ for use as a monopropellant in the turbine, while the H2 is burned in the ICE (or in a second stage tubine). All of these concepts are using waste heat, but realistically, unless the hydrino, LENR (or something unknown like the Graneau hypothesis) is also at work, and that extra energy can be harnessed as well, then this won't happen. Thermacore and Mizuno presents a good case that it can be done, in principle. But that is a far, far way from doing it now. At this point in time (terrorism concern) radiolysis is out for an automobile, but maybe not for a longer time horizon. The main point is that the USA should be putting the equivalent of the hot fusion budget into this! (including $$$ into your work) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 15:11:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23NBVmg022490; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:11:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23NBTo1022441; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:11:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:11:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07e701c75de9$8d83d9a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E9E520.8030207@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 00:13:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l23NBQg8022340 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: Jones, your musings prompted the following idea here: 1/ There exist well known mechanical-to-heat converters with a COP>3, namely heat pumps used for heating purposes sucking the heat from ambient air: you get 3 to 4 times more heat out than the energy you have put in (probably much more since the figure I am quoting includes the sub-unity electrical-to-mechanical conversion efficiency of the heat pump's electric motor, of which we would have no need). Let's call such a device's efficiency COP1, with COP1 > 3 (conservative) 2/ As you say there exist heat-to-mechanical converters with an efficiency well over 40%. Let's call such a device's efficiency COP2, with COP2 > 0.4 (conservative again) 3/ Now if we drive a device of type 1 using a device of type 2, the combination's efficiency will be: COP2*COP1 > 0.4*3 = 1.2 > 1 right? So we can close the loop, mechanical-to-heat-to mechanical, with excess energy to power the car or whatever. Right? :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis > Ron, > >> but lets assume I can provide Hydrogen from water in excess of COP>1. Now what are we going to do with it >> where the conversion does not eat up this gain? ICE engine is out! > > I may have to disagree on this point, as I am optimistically looking for > continued advances on several fronts. Yes, fuel cells are out. Huge > drain of time and effort. > > But ... both Ford and BMW have puts tons of money and man-hours into > improving the H2 fueled ICE. They are not there yet but they can get a > Carnot efficiency of 45% at single engine speed. BMW has gotten over 50%. > > Now at first blush - this looks to be of no great help because you would > need COP>3 or closer to 4 to get anything useful ... even with a (much) > larger engine to cover the parasitism ... but there are wildcards which > built on the 55% waste heat of those ICE's: > > 1) thermo-electro-chemical water splitting > 2) thermoelectric water radiolysis > > I don't see either getting close to COP>3 (compared to Faradaic) but... > > 3) either of the above, using LENR (perhaps Mizuno arc) techniques to > provide more energy, and with or without ... > > 4) turbine/ICE dual engines where split cell water splitting is > engineered so that peroxide is produced preferentially (instead of O2) > and enriched in situ for use as a monopropellant in the turbine, while > the H2 is burned in the ICE (or in a second stage tubine). > > All of these concepts are using waste heat, but realistically, unless > the hydrino, LENR (or something unknown like the Graneau hypothesis) is > also at work, and that extra energy can be harnessed as well, then this > won't happen. Thermacore and Mizuno presents a good case that it can be > done, in principle. But that is a far, far way from doing it now. > > At this point in time (terrorism concern) radiolysis is out for an > automobile, but maybe not for a longer time horizon. > > The main point is that the USA should be putting the equivalent of the > hot fusion budget into this! (including $$$ into your work) > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 15:24:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23NOHai001350; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:24:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23NOGGH001333; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:24:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:24:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aliens Claim Sir Branson's Prize Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:24:09 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45E7315F.4050307@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E7315F.4050307@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.3.119] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:24:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l23NODfQ001276 Resent-Message-ID: <0Mjup.A.tU.fOg6FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:02:39 -0500: Hi, [snip] > > >Terry Blanton wrote: >> http://physorg.com/news91888237.html >> >> UFO science key to halting climate change: former Canadian defense minister >> >> A former Canadian defense minister is demanding governments worldwide >> disclose and use secret alien technologies obtained in alleged UFO >> crashes to stem climate change, a local paper said Wednesday. > >Jeeze this is awful! They're going to pick out, very specifically, the >technology used in UFOs which _crashed_! This guarantees we'll be doing >something wrong. > >Now, if we could only get the aliens in the ones that _didn't_ crash to >tell us how they do stuff, that might actually provide a sensible path >forward. They only crash when we shoot them down. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 15:42:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l23NgHx0015020; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:42:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l23NgF3S015006; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:42:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:42:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07fa01c75ded$da51e160$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E9E520.8030207@pacbell.net> <07e701c75de9$8d83d9a0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 00:44:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l23NgDiQ014986 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: I can't believe they let my post through, I KNEW it was a good idea to post it during a total lunar eclipse! As many as possible of you guys please let me know if you received it too, let they know the free energy revolution is on the march! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:13 AM Subject: [Vo]: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) > Jones, your musings prompted the following idea here: > > 1/ There exist well known mechanical-to-heat converters with a COP>3, namely heat pumps used for heating purposes sucking the heat from ambient air: you get 3 to 4 times more heat out than the energy you have put in (probably much more since the figure I am quoting includes the sub-unity electrical-to-mechanical conversion efficiency of the heat pump's electric motor, of which we would have no need). Let's call such a device's efficiency COP1, with COP1 > 3 (conservative) > > 2/ As you say there exist heat-to-mechanical converters with an efficiency well over 40%. Let's call such a device's efficiency COP2, with COP2 > 0.4 (conservative again) > > 3/ Now if we drive a device of type 1 using a device of type 2, the combination's efficiency will be: > COP2*COP1 > 0.4*3 = 1.2 > 1 right? > > So we can close the loop, mechanical-to-heat-to mechanical, with excess energy to power the car or whatever. Right? :) > > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jones Beene" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 10:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis > > >> Ron, >> >>> but lets assume I can provide Hydrogen from water in excess of COP>1. Now what are we going to do with it >>> where the conversion does not eat up this gain? ICE engine is out! >> >> I may have to disagree on this point, as I am optimistically looking for >> continued advances on several fronts. Yes, fuel cells are out. Huge >> drain of time and effort. >> >> But ... both Ford and BMW have puts tons of money and man-hours into >> improving the H2 fueled ICE. They are not there yet but they can get a >> Carnot efficiency of 45% at single engine speed. BMW has gotten over 50%. >> >> Now at first blush - this looks to be of no great help because you would >> need COP>3 or closer to 4 to get anything useful ... even with a (much) >> larger engine to cover the parasitism ... but there are wildcards which >> built on the 55% waste heat of those ICE's: >> >> 1) thermo-electro-chemical water splitting >> 2) thermoelectric water radiolysis >> >> I don't see either getting close to COP>3 (compared to Faradaic) but... >> >> 3) either of the above, using LENR (perhaps Mizuno arc) techniques to >> provide more energy, and with or without ... >> >> 4) turbine/ICE dual engines where split cell water splitting is >> engineered so that peroxide is produced preferentially (instead of O2) >> and enriched in situ for use as a monopropellant in the turbine, while >> the H2 is burned in the ICE (or in a second stage tubine). >> >> All of these concepts are using waste heat, but realistically, unless >> the hydrino, LENR (or something unknown like the Graneau hypothesis) is >> also at work, and that extra energy can be harnessed as well, then this >> won't happen. Thermacore and Mizuno presents a good case that it can be >> done, in principle. But that is a far, far way from doing it now. >> >> At this point in time (terrorism concern) radiolysis is out for an >> automobile, but maybe not for a longer time horizon. >> >> The main point is that the USA should be putting the equivalent of the >> hot fusion budget into this! (including $$$ into your work) >> >> Jones >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 16:28:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l240S6fF027080; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:28:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l240S4Hn027061; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:28:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:28:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <080f01c75df4$3ec17e20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E9E520.8030207@pacbell.net> <07e701c75de9$8d83d9a0$3800a8c0@zothan> <07fa01c75ded$da51e160$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:30:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l240Rxu6026958 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: Oh I remember now, Jones doesn't get my posts for some reason. But surely others got them? Robin? Anyone? Or wait, did they... did YOU send the two posts back to me only???? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:44 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) >I can't believe they let my post through, I KNEW it was a good idea to post it during a total lunar eclipse! As many as possible of you guys please let me know if you received it too, let they know the free energy revolution is on the march! > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:13 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) > > >> Jones, your musings prompted the following idea here: >> >> 1/ There exist well known mechanical-to-heat converters with a COP>3, namely heat pumps used for heating purposes sucking the heat from ambient air: you get 3 to 4 times more heat out than the energy you have put in (probably much more since the figure I am quoting includes the sub-unity electrical-to-mechanical conversion efficiency of the heat pump's electric motor, of which we would have no need). Let's call such a device's efficiency COP1, with COP1 > 3 (conservative) >> >> 2/ As you say there exist heat-to-mechanical converters with an efficiency well over 40%. Let's call such a device's efficiency COP2, with COP2 > 0.4 (conservative again) >> >> 3/ Now if we drive a device of type 1 using a device of type 2, the combination's efficiency will be: >> COP2*COP1 > 0.4*3 = 1.2 > 1 right? >> >> So we can close the loop, mechanical-to-heat-to mechanical, with excess energy to power the car or whatever. Right? :) >> >> Michel >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jones Beene" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 10:14 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis >> >> >>> Ron, >>> >>>> but lets assume I can provide Hydrogen from water in excess of COP>1. Now what are we going to do with it >>>> where the conversion does not eat up this gain? ICE engine is out! >>> >>> I may have to disagree on this point, as I am optimistically looking for >>> continued advances on several fronts. Yes, fuel cells are out. Huge >>> drain of time and effort. >>> >>> But ... both Ford and BMW have puts tons of money and man-hours into >>> improving the H2 fueled ICE. They are not there yet but they can get a >>> Carnot efficiency of 45% at single engine speed. BMW has gotten over 50%. >>> >>> Now at first blush - this looks to be of no great help because you would >>> need COP>3 or closer to 4 to get anything useful ... even with a (much) >>> larger engine to cover the parasitism ... but there are wildcards which >>> built on the 55% waste heat of those ICE's: >>> >>> 1) thermo-electro-chemical water splitting >>> 2) thermoelectric water radiolysis >>> >>> I don't see either getting close to COP>3 (compared to Faradaic) but... >>> >>> 3) either of the above, using LENR (perhaps Mizuno arc) techniques to >>> provide more energy, and with or without ... >>> >>> 4) turbine/ICE dual engines where split cell water splitting is >>> engineered so that peroxide is produced preferentially (instead of O2) >>> and enriched in situ for use as a monopropellant in the turbine, while >>> the H2 is burned in the ICE (or in a second stage tubine). >>> >>> All of these concepts are using waste heat, but realistically, unless >>> the hydrino, LENR (or something unknown like the Graneau hypothesis) is >>> also at work, and that extra energy can be harnessed as well, then this >>> won't happen. Thermacore and Mizuno presents a good case that it can be >>> done, in principle. But that is a far, far way from doing it now. >>> >>> At this point in time (terrorism concern) radiolysis is out for an >>> automobile, but maybe not for a longer time horizon. >>> >>> The main point is that the USA should be putting the equivalent of the >>> hot fusion budget into this! (including $$$ into your work) >>> >>> Jones >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 17:38:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l241cOHk032047; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:38:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l241cAg1031973; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:38:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:38:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=a0/gxJlgYMlIhidpOC3Z89hCmbbMwK7MOPhg1Yf6IYbwqMOaxRFZaraA9gTB7C0PvjoBz0GG5GLVKe9OwqX/fGt/Qj8EAoyPaYB/5CKMSOXLSSvA5NSj+IWyPZqvzFwqCUjjOoTghlPYjYPaoaHvlUJU2skIlVZDnb2JshkgJl4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=O2Lc6rAAiLrC4VM8rcd1ZcMeqgcAGfWE9zvRdC4Adgzcxx1aI/b5mVS/U0Ul1jNNnaOXVyJIHPUUiEcvITo8nI5StKAMw6iXqr5S2gFyk9WKhlHBhXPmKdncQbgWrC7yANsH5FnRc9VaIAvaw+S/4d4pZ3foTm7a7xOR3uPmxsk= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:38:09 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <002801c75d9c$97e05010$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_112618_26956150.1172972289597" References: <002801c75d9c$97e05010$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_112618_26956150.1172972289597 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/4/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > > Ok, that didn't take long. > > > I am after skimming (very lightly) the 3 links unsure what experiments > your theory is based on. > I am also not sure it said anything about how to make a simple device to > output free energy or create (so-called) antigravity. > > > Does it explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG > devices to numerous to list? > > > Is your aether largely entrained by matter? Assuming it is how can it be > motivated to flow through matter? > If it is what effects will occur, will spins be aligned? Will fields > (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether. > > > If the aether is compressed what will happen? (many experiments indicate > antigravity results) > And how could the aether be compressed? > > > Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the aether the source of > inertia? > > > Can matters coupling to the aether be changed? > > > I seriously don't think you have answered any of these questions. > > It seems all you do is explain the mundane. > > Sorry, John, I have been through this a hundred times already and am not > interested in your particular attitude. First off, I quantified exactly > what it is you already believe, and now you plan to play me into explaining > everything to you in detail. Many of your questions above were answered in > the paper, A New Foundation for Physics. > I'll take another look but it seemed very abstract and mathematical, not my kind of thing. If there is some way you could answer some of the questions above, the ones with simple yes or no's or simply tell me what page I of which paper I should consult. As I have been investigating aether from a different angle for a decade now (numerous observations of it clearly functioning in various devices) it is quite possible we could have insights that could be valuable to one another and each come out of it with a better understanding. I have a list of Yes/No questions at the bottom if you could please take 1 minute to answer them. We agree that there is a fluid aether which is matter entrained and apparently on some other points too, I have the experimental side, you have the model covered so let's make an effort as we might both come out of it better off. BTW I am aware also of the beta atmosphere theory, did you find it had significant agreement with your model? The paper was written because people had asked me for a synopsis of the > theory. Twenty seven pages was the shortest I could write a basic > synopsis. If the synopsis does not interest you, then too bad. Just go on > ignoring my work. > Well if your work doesn't simply explain the mundane but give real experimental 'how to' with regard to Antigravity and Free Energy then I am very interested, does it? I have a book that goes into much more detail, but I don't want to next be > accused of trying to sell books. > > > > This theory is far more developed than you can pick up by speed-reading a > twenty seven page paper, which is itself just an introductory paper. It > would be just as unfair for me to judge modern physics based upon a > speed-read of a high school general science book. > > > > I'm already into the design and construction phase of various related > experiments and being invited to speak before qualified scientists. I make > myself available to seriously interested persons, but I don't do the "poodle > jumping through the flaming hoop act" anymore. If you are not seriously > interested in studying the Aether Physics Model, then it is you who can > remain with the mundane and insane physics you so despise. > I am seriously interested but I'm going to have a hard time getting anything practical out of your paper it would seem, it appears to be written to convince academics but I'll give it another shot, still I'd love the crib notes version or simply the answers to the questions I asked, here is a list of yes/no questions that shouldn't take to long, ones you have already answered are omitted: Does it explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG devices to numerous to list? Y/N Can the aether be motivated to flow through matter by: Being entrained by moving magnetic field? Y/N Being entrained by moving electric fields? Y/N Does anything special happen if aether flows at 90 dgrees to other aether flows? Y/N If it is made to move through matter will spins be aligned? Y/N Will fields (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether? Y/N Can the aether be compressed? Y/N If the aether is compressed in an object will an antigravity type force or a reduction in weight result? Y/N Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the matter entrained aether the source of inertia? Y/N Can matters coupling to the aether be varied for instance by having a capacitor charged or uncharged? Y/N If aether is made to move through matter in an accelerating manner (perhaps as a beam shot out of a device) would a gravity like impulse be felt? Y/N (Morton, Podkletnov, ATGroup device the name of which alludes me among others, see also 90 degree effect for how they created the impulse) Would a non rotating ring act as a gyroscope if the aether was made to move through the ring in a circular manner? Y/N (as experience by Steve Mark's where a gyroscopic force of precession is noticed if the axis it turned) BTW the only one that I am unsure about personally if the issue of spins being aligned, however there is evidence so that also tells you some of what I have discovered. Ok, off to read just the first paper again but somehow I think it will answer little of the above so your answers would be greatly appreciated. ------=_Part_112618_26956150.1172972289597 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/4/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:

Hi John,

 

> Ok, that didn't take long.

> I am after skimming (very lightly) the 3 links unsure what experiments your theory is based on.
I am also not sure it said anything about how to make a simple device to output free energy or create (so-called) antigravity.

> Does it explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG devices to numerous to list?

> Is your aether largely entrained by matter? Assuming it is how can it be motivated to flow through matter?
If it is what effects will occur, will spins be aligned? Will fields (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether.

> If the aether is compressed what will happen? (many experiments indicate antigravity results)
And how could the aether be compressed?

> Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the aether the source of inertia?

> Can matters coupling to the aether be changed?

> I seriously don't think you have answered any of these questions.
> It seems all you do is explain the mundane.

Sorry, John, I have been through this a hundred times already and am not interested in your particular attitude.  First off, I quantified exactly what it is you already believe, and now you plan to play me into explaining everything to you in detail.  Many of your questions above were answered in the paper, A New Foundation for Physics. 


I'll take another look but it seemed very abstract and mathematical, not my kind of thing.
If there is some way you could answer some of the questions above, the ones with simple yes or no's or simply tell me what page I of which paper I should consult.
As I have been investigating aether from a different angle for a decade now (numerous observations of it clearly functioning in various devices) it is quite possible we could have insights that could be valuable to one another and each come out of it with a better understanding.

I have a list of Yes/No questions at the bottom if you could please take 1 minute to answer them.

We agree that there is a fluid aether which is matter entrained and apparently on some other points too, I have the experimental side, you have the model covered so let's make an effort as we might both come out of it better off.

BTW I am aware also of the beta atmosphere theory, did you find it had significant agreement with your model?

The paper was written because people had asked me for a synopsis of the theory.  Twenty seven pages was the shortest I could write a basic synopsis.  If the synopsis does not interest you, then too bad.  Just go on ignoring my work.


Well if your work doesn't simply explain the mundane but give real experimental 'how to' with regard to Antigravity and Free Energy then I am very interested, does it?

I have a book that goes into much more detail, but I don't want to next be accused of trying to sell books. 

 

This theory is far more developed than you can pick up by speed-reading a twenty seven page paper, which is itself just an introductory paper.  It would be just as unfair for me to judge modern physics based upon a speed-read of a high school general science book. 

 

I'm already into the design and construction phase of various related experiments and being invited to speak before qualified scientists.  I make myself available to seriously interested persons, but I don't do the "poodle jumping through the flaming hoop act" anymore.  If you are not seriously interested in studying the Aether Physics Model, then it is you who can remain with the mundane and insane physics you so despise.


I am seriously interested but I'm going to have a hard time getting anything practical out of your paper it would seem, it appears to be written to convince academics but I'll give it another shot, still I'd love the crib notes version or simply the answers to the questions I asked, here is a list of yes/no questions that shouldn't take to long, ones you have already answered are omitted:

Does it explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG devices to numerous to list? Y/N

Can the aether be motivated to flow through matter by:
Being entrained by moving magnetic field? Y/N
Being entrained by moving electric fields? Y/N

Does anything special happen if aether flows at 90 dgrees to other aether flows? Y/N

If it is made to move through matter will spins be aligned? Y/N

Will fields (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether? Y/N

Can the aether be compressed? Y/N

If the aether is compressed in an object will an antigravity type force or a reduction in weight result? Y/N

Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the matter entrained aether the source of inertia? Y/N

Can matters coupling to the aether be varied for instance by having a capacitor charged or uncharged? Y/N

If aether is made to move through matter in an accelerating manner (perhaps as a beam shot out of a device) would a gravity like impulse be felt? Y/N  (Morton, Podkletnov, ATGroup device the name of which alludes me among others, see also 90 degree effect for how they created the impulse)

Would a non rotating ring act as a gyroscope if the aether was made to move through the ring in a circular manner? Y/N (as experience by Steve Mark's where a gyroscopic force of precession is noticed if the axis it turned)

BTW the only one that I am unsure about personally if the issue of spins being aligned, however there is evidence so that also tells you some of what I have discovered.

Ok, off to read just the first paper again but somehow I think it will answer little of the above so your answers would be greatly appreciated.
------=_Part_112618_26956150.1172972289597-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 18:13:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l242D4qF030440; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:13:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l242D2tA030428; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:13:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:13:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <082d01c75e02$e8380740$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E9E520.8030207@pacbell.net> <07e701c75de9$8d83d9a0$3800a8c0@zothan> <07fa01c75ded$da51e160$3800a8c0@zothan> <080f01c75df4$3ec17e20$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 03:14:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l242CwOv030391 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: OK, if the MIBs didn't intercept my posts which they probably didn't (no one has knocked at my door yet), it must be that my scheme was simply not clear enough to provoke feedback. I'll try and make it clearer through a practical embodiment: Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot and cold sources (2LoT not broken), and through an appropriate quasi-lossless gearbox replaces the electric motor powering the compressor of an average performance house heating type heat pump (COP=3 conservatively), which therefore pumps 400W*3=1200W of heat from the ambient air to the hot water reservoir. 1000W out, 1200W in, surely there can be no doubt that after the initial joule heater kick this apparatus will run standalone, drawing its energy from the ambient air (cooling it so ventilation will be needed, by say a 10W fan), and providing nearly 200W continuous excess heat to the hot water reservoir? Does it make more sense now? ;-) -- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 1:30 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) > Oh I remember now, Jones doesn't get my posts for some reason. But surely others got them? Robin? Anyone? > > Or wait, did they... did YOU send the two posts back to me only???? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:44 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) > > >>I can't believe they let my post through, I KNEW it was a good idea to post it during a total lunar eclipse! As many as possible of you guys please let me know if you received it too, let they know the free energy revolution is on the march! >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michel Jullian" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:13 AM >> Subject: [Vo]: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) >> >> >>> Jones, your musings prompted the following idea here: >>> >>> 1/ There exist well known mechanical-to-heat converters with a COP>3, namely heat pumps used for heating purposes sucking the heat from ambient air: you get 3 to 4 times more heat out than the energy you have put in (probably much more since the figure I am quoting includes the sub-unity electrical-to-mechanical conversion efficiency of the heat pump's electric motor, of which we would have no need). Let's call such a device's efficiency COP1, with COP1 > 3 (conservative) >>> >>> 2/ As you say there exist heat-to-mechanical converters with an efficiency well over 40%. Let's call such a device's efficiency COP2, with COP2 > 0.4 (conservative again) >>> >>> 3/ Now if we drive a device of type 1 using a device of type 2, the combination's efficiency will be: >>> COP2*COP1 > 0.4*3 = 1.2 > 1 right? >>> >>> So we can close the loop, mechanical-to-heat-to mechanical, with excess energy to power the car or whatever. Right? :) >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jones Beene" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 10:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis >>> >>> >>>> Ron, >>>> >>>>> but lets assume I can provide Hydrogen from water in excess of COP>1. Now what are we going to do with it >>>>> where the conversion does not eat up this gain? ICE engine is out! >>>> >>>> I may have to disagree on this point, as I am optimistically looking for >>>> continued advances on several fronts. Yes, fuel cells are out. Huge >>>> drain of time and effort. >>>> >>>> But ... both Ford and BMW have puts tons of money and man-hours into >>>> improving the H2 fueled ICE. They are not there yet but they can get a >>>> Carnot efficiency of 45% at single engine speed. BMW has gotten over 50%. >>>> >>>> Now at first blush - this looks to be of no great help because you would >>>> need COP>3 or closer to 4 to get anything useful ... even with a (much) >>>> larger engine to cover the parasitism ... but there are wildcards which >>>> built on the 55% waste heat of those ICE's: >>>> >>>> 1) thermo-electro-chemical water splitting >>>> 2) thermoelectric water radiolysis >>>> >>>> I don't see either getting close to COP>3 (compared to Faradaic) but... >>>> >>>> 3) either of the above, using LENR (perhaps Mizuno arc) techniques to >>>> provide more energy, and with or without ... >>>> >>>> 4) turbine/ICE dual engines where split cell water splitting is >>>> engineered so that peroxide is produced preferentially (instead of O2) >>>> and enriched in situ for use as a monopropellant in the turbine, while >>>> the H2 is burned in the ICE (or in a second stage tubine). >>>> >>>> All of these concepts are using waste heat, but realistically, unless >>>> the hydrino, LENR (or something unknown like the Graneau hypothesis) is >>>> also at work, and that extra energy can be harnessed as well, then this >>>> won't happen. Thermacore and Mizuno presents a good case that it can be >>>> done, in principle. But that is a far, far way from doing it now. >>>> >>>> At this point in time (terrorism concern) radiolysis is out for an >>>> automobile, but maybe not for a longer time horizon. >>>> >>>> The main point is that the USA should be putting the equivalent of the >>>> hot fusion budget into this! (including $$$ into your work) >>>> >>>> Jones >>>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 19:17:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l243HErW021961; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:17:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l243HC30021938; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:17:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:17:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:16:45 -0600 Message-ID: <006f01c75e0b$90c99650$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: Acdd/j2b8PVMSukUQS2wc7Ztrt0AEwABOn6g Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l243HADK021913 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, > I have a list of Yes/No questions at the bottom if you could please take 1 minute to answer them. > We agree that there is a fluid aether which is matter entrained and apparently on some other points too, I have the experimental side, you have the model covered so let's make an effort as we might both come out of it better off. I will listen to any experiment that has been performed, and examine the data. > BTW I am aware also of the beta atmosphere theory, did you find it had significant agreement with your model? I don't believe I am aware of the Beta Atmosphere theory. Where can I read about it? > Well if your work doesn't simply explain the mundane but give real experimental 'how to' with regard to Antigravity and Free Energy then I am very interested, does it? Yes, I explain briefly in my book how lithium, tritium, deuterium, and a specific list of other isotopes can be used to produce free energy by causing resonance within these particular atoms. I also show the precise working of the Casimir effect and how it can be tapped to produce unlimited energy (just as the Universe already does). Both of the above processes are actually identical, except the first applies to the physics of the proton and the second applies to the physics of the electron. > I am seriously interested but I'm going to have a hard time getting anything practical out of your paper it would seem, it appears to be written to convince academics but I'll give it another shot, still I'd love the crib notes version or simply the answers to the questions I asked, here is a list of yes/no questions that shouldn't take to long, ones you have already answered are omitted: The theory I am presenting is not a philosophy, channeled material, or something I deciphered off a crashed UFO. This is real physics, based upon real (simple algebra) math. It is a fact of science that if you want to understand it, you have to learn it. There is nothing difficult about the Aether Physics Model. All you need to do is take it one step at a time. If you want, I could provide a simple course of the theory based upon A New Foundation for Physics, as a series of lectures. You could ask relevant questions about the material with each posting. > Does it explain the vast majority, or at least a number of the FE and AG devices to numerous to list? Y/N Yes, it explains all the devices. Every one of them has to do with resonance and the Casimir effect. This is easy to see when you understand the basics of the theory. > Can the aether be motivated to flow through matter by: > Being entrained by moving magnetic field? Y/N > Being entrained by moving electric fields? Y/N Yes to both. I actually have a project lined up to do this with magnetic fields. It can also be done with gravitational fields, and in fact, nature does it all the time. All three force fields (electrostatic, electromagnetic, and gravitational) share the same quantum unit. This is why "antigravity" effects can be produced through electrostatic or electromagnetic processes. > Does anything special happen if aether flows at 90 dgrees to other aether flows? Y/N Aether would normally flow as a vortex (hence my interest in this list). I have not considered the situation of 90* Aether flows, per se. > If it is made to move through matter will spins be aligned? Y/N It depends on how the Aether is manipulated. But yes, spins are entirely dependent upon the Aether. The Aether is the source of all subatomic spin. The spin aligned Aether is no different from the electric or magnetic field. Magnetic fields (spin aligned Aether) will tend to align the spins of matter, and matter will tend to align the spins of Aether. Matter, being bound by the strong force (which is the same as the electromagnetic force) and encapsulated by Aether, is in a tug of war with empty spin aligned Aether units in the immediate environment. I could go into much more detail on this. > Will fields (magnetic, electric, spins/torsion) of the matter be carried on the aether? Y/N That is the only place they exist. Each subatomic particle is encapsulated by an Aether unit. The Aether unit is what gives the subatomic particle its electrostatic charge. The angular momentum of the dark matter, which is encapsulated by Aether and thus becomes visible matter, interacts with the conductance of the Aether and produces strong charge (electromagnetic charge). All charge transactions take place in the Aether, there is no other way to do it. > Can the aether be compressed? Y/N The Aether can be compressed and decompressed (stretched) by a factor of two either way. When matter causes compression by a factor of two, the surrounding Aether fabric is stretched by a factor of two. At exactly two, the Aether encapsulated by the matter rips apart from the immediate Aether fabric and implodes. The implosion causes the encapsulated angular momentum to release as dark matter (neutrinos) and the charges associated with the Aether rejoin to return to a state of unity, thus ending the Aether's existence. Modern physics calls this a black hole. However, the black hole does not exist for long periods of time as modern physics suggests, but completely evaporates within seconds or minutes. > If the aether is compressed in an object will an antigravity type force or a reduction in weight result? Y/N Not necessarily. The so-called weight reduction occurs when a bubble of Aether is dissociated from the surrounding Aether fabric. It is like a soap bubble cutting off a region of air from the surrounding atmosphere. The flying triangles likely use this technology. I am building a power supply for a flying triangle. The first step is to build Tesla's Wardencliffe system in miniature, which I have finished building and am now tuning. The Wardencliffe style power supply is a perfectly tuned Tesla coil with the secondary and primary capacitor grounded to an uncoupled extra coil. The extra coil is build to be as perfect a Helmholtz resonator as possible, except instead of resonating air molecules it is resonating electrons. The flying triangle has three such extra coils mounted on a vehicle in which the entire skin is the ground connection. When the system is put into resonance, it creates an Aether bubble around the vehicle. By changing the impedance in each of the extra coil ground connections the bubble can be made to maneuver through the surrounding Aether. Since the space-time (Aether) inside the bubble is no longer connected to the surrounding environment, there is no gravitational force between the Earth and the vehicle. The vehicle is essentially weightless and easy to maneuver. > Is acceleration/deceleration relative to the matter entrained aether the source of inertia? Y/N Inertia is simply the dimension of mass. It is a property that preexists physical existence (just as is length, quantum frequency [time], and charge), therefore these dimensions cannot be understood in terms of physics. To expect inertia to be understood in terms of physics would be like expecting red blood cells to be understood in terms of humans. The red blood cells make up humans, humans don't make up red blood cells. Similarly, dimensions make physical existence, physical existence does not make dimensions. Acceleration, deceleration, and matter are properties of physical existence, not dimensions. > Can matters coupling to the aether be varied for instance by having a capacitor charged or uncharged? Y/N Yes and no. Matter's coupling to the Aether can be altered in a nuclear binding (among protons and neutrons), which explains the "mass deficit" observation. However, with regard to capacitors and electrons on them, the effect governing it is the Casimir effect. By charging and discharging capacitors we can create new photons (not virtual photons, but real photons). The photons are created when a new Aether unit is created, which absorbs dark matter. The photon can then be absorbed by the capacitor plate and converted to an electron via the photoelectric effect. If a load is placed between the plates, the electrons can be put to work, thus making room for more new photons and electrons. We see this occurring all the time in vacuum tubes, solar corona, nebulae, auroras, and many other instances. These new photons and Aether units are the reason why the Universe appears to be expanding. All the new matter is created mostly on the outside of galaxies, while all the old matter implodes at the center of galaxies. It is like a bathtub with the faucet on while the plug is pulled, which causes the galaxies to spin inward toward black holes, and away from each other (Hubble constant). > If aether is made to move through matter in an accelerating manner (perhaps as a beam shot out of a device) would a gravity like impulse be felt? Y/N  (Morton, Podkletnov, ATGroup device the name of which alludes me among others, see also 90 degree effect for how they created the impulse) I don't know, but it is easier to find out than you presently imagine. You are familiar with the tornado in a can? We can build the same thing using magnetic fields rather than air molecules. I'm presently building a power supply for this device. Then I will build the rotating magnetic field generator, which will create a magnetic field tornado in a can. > Would a non rotating ring act as a gyroscope if the aether was made to move through the ring in a circular manner? Y/N (as experience by Steve Mark's where a gyroscopic force of precession is noticed if the axis it turned) If the Aether is moving in a circular manner then you have a rotating magnetic field. This is an interesting proposal, which I have not thought of, but will now consider. > BTW the only one that I am unsure about personally if the issue of spins being aligned, however there is evidence so that also tells you some of what I have discovered. The Aether is a two spin, five-dimensional, quantum rotating magnetic field. If the Aether units are aligned to produce a magnetic field, then the spins are automatically aligned. Probably the only example of a perfectly aligned matter/Aether structure is a dense neutron star just on the verge of collapsing. > Ok, off to read just the first paper again but somehow I think it will answer little of the above so your answers would be greatly appreciated. You treat me with respect, I'll treat you to some really great physics. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 19:31:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l243VNxk022065; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:31:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l243VMDc022043; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:31:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:31:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ONkXY1U0XAtd250k8tu5kCxZGuo6YqB85KiNk7kshwJqA262mSvQlHChTq7uU7qkr1Z9YOG0LiqHuvi/mHfRbCIwqw4UHse7R8ph8Dc55Tjmyqgt5oO8DaSctkRcO6HeOwVT6SPkayWDuRmt+qpVc+d5gycG1DTF6uuQPAITtxI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=YPWecIUqMB8bEvfCmVwjsM7YrEoQRXOrynapY5DyqCrQ1t6rwAX+3rzzgUof/LqVRhSocfY72u0kzVD9L76nGTE7FwzauYJDvvh9lyYQ0OFkL7mFCkjtcyj6DOiQeXrFIpqMlLQm0YlgCbmr9LIaa+N64mFn+QZuoOiIuTtZuOc= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:31:21 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45E99DC3.9000504@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_113590_4945239.1172979081319" References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> <45E8DE0D.9010507@pobox.com> <45E99DC3.9000504@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_113590_4945239.1172979081319 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/4/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > I will let you have the last shot; I won't be replying on this topic in > this mailing list after this message. Fine with me, but you'd better read what I wrote as it took too long to type to be ignored. John Berry wrote: > > On 3/3/07, *Stephen A. Lawrence* > > wrote: > > > > > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > > It is the only possible model as SR is illogical > > > > Well, that sure shoots down SR. > > > > > > SR has many logical inconsistencies > > To learn relativity is to understand it, and if you did that, then you > would see that it's not internally inconsistent. However, that takes a > lot more effort than just calling it "illogical". I spent years learning it, believed it, looked for holes and failed to find any. Then when I saw them I was shocked at how obvious they were. Here is a simple one, it's called the twin paradox for a reason. If you have 2 twins and one stays on earth and the other one travels to a distant star and returns then SR states that the traveling twin still has youthful good looks while the other has long been pushing up daises after dying of old age. Now what if these twins had some form of instantaneous communication between them, then we could easily measure the different rates of time each twin experiences, we could even find the stationary reference frame. Of course SR says that you can't have instantaneous communication and relies on the doppler effect which will effect any light based communication attempts, but doppler time shift is not time dilation but a separate effect, you could very well calculate the doppler effect and reconstruct the real rate of passage of time the other twin is experiencing. SR then says 'no no no, it's not the velocity difference it is the acceleration one twin faces that makes the difference'. And yes the twin who stays home may easily go under more acceleration by being on s spinning body orbiting a star, driving everywhere. Also the thing about thought experiments is they aren't limited to what is comfortable or practical only what is technically possible in order to exaggerate something to make a point. So the traveling twin may accelerate based on either twins clocks to the final velocity (let's say .99c) in a mere fraction of a second. Furthermore there are a number of ways to have instantaneous communication. (or near instantaneous communication that has no Doppler time shift) One way is to have two parallel almost infinatly long trains in space, they start of stationary with the twins in opposite carriages, but first a few details. Each cabin has a clock (which as designed to be easily read by those of the other train even at relativistic speeds), it is generally accepted that there are many ways by which a number of observes at a distance in the same reference frame may synchronize their watches Also each cabin how it's own propulsion unit and again it is able to reach near lightspeeds in under a second by any observers watch. Now one of the twins accelerates, each can keep an eye on the rate of time the other train is observing, if they each sees the other as experiencing time slower then themselves then when the trains are stopped each will have different expectations, they simply can't match. There is another way however, you can have one twin stay of earth and the other twin orbit the earth at near light speed. You see the twin paradox always assume the twins are moving away from each other but in the case of orbit where they can constantly communicate or for that matter merely flying by where they get a moment to observe the rate of time the other experience and communicate without Doppler distortion. There are yet more problems. Let's say we now have 3 parallel close trains with open beds, we'd better put them on earth so no one suffocates. We will have 2 flash bulbs of each train, each a set distance apart and an observees on each train positioned in the middle of the 2 flash bulbs, if the bulbs go off at the same time the short sharp photon pulse reach the observes and he sees a single bright flash. Now let the middle train not move, let the bulbs flash at 12:00 and at 12:01 (it's slow light ok ;) the observer on that train see a bright flash from each bulb simultaneously. However at 12:00 as the bulbs go off the train to the right was moving down the track, at that exact moment the observer on the right train passes the observer on the middle stationary train. The observer on the right train expects to see the bulbs flashes simultaneously because he was in the middle when they went off (and if there were a bunch of censors along the right train they would demand to see the pulses from each bulb advance from detector detector and hence must meet in the middle). Furthermore in case you are unsure you could have (different colour?) bulbs on the moving right train that go off simultaneously and right next to the bulbs on the middle train, obviously the observer on the right train would insist on seeing the bulbs on it's own train similtaniously. Now here is the really tricky part, if that didn't convince you SR is flawed as it require the same pulses to pass each other multiple times, in different places depending on the reference frame. Now in the above example where the right train sees the impulses from the stationary frames bulbs simultaneousness, as does the observer on the stationary frame (but not a second observer on the stationary frame/train where the observer on the right train does experience the pulses simultaneously), indeed we could have the left train we have ignore until now also moving. Now what happens when just as the observer on the left train detects the simultaneous pulses the train stops (or the observer jumps) and finds them right next to a second observer on the stationary train, this observer would have recieved the pulse from the closer bulb but not yet the more distant one. So now we have to observers in the same place and frame, one who has seen 2 pulses one who has seen just one, so when the always stationary observer sees the second more distant bulbs pulse what of the previously moving observer does he see this pulse a second time? BTW I am well aware of length contraction also however it doesn't effect any of the above experiments, it might require there to be different sets of bulbs or trains to be replaced by individual vehicles. Ok, so you got me to reply. SR may be wrong -- which is something to be determined by experiment -- > but it is not inconsistent. > > > because if you did you would > > agree rather than quip. > > > > > > > > If so, how you do you account for the results of the > > Michelson-Morley > > > and Sagnac experiments in your model? These two brought down > the > > > "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic > > theory. (Or do > > > you deny that MMX actually got a null result?) > > > > > > > > > Oh boy, do your own research. > > > > OK, I guess that answers the question. > > > > > > I guess you didn't read the next part where I did in fact go over the > > reasons why the MMX in no way disproves an entrained aether. > > Oh, yes, you said "maybe" their result wasn't really null, "maybe" their > experiment was highly flawed, and "maybe" "many" "better" experiments > give a nonnull result. AFAIK the last "maybe" is flatly false; their > experiment has been repeated many times in a number of forms and the > results are consistently null. > > The first "maybe" -- that their original result was nonnull -- is also > false, in that their result was null to within their error bars. > > You also said an "entrained" ether predicts a null result -- that's > true, but a fully dragged ether runs into trouble with the Sagnac > experiment. Sagnac requires Fresnel dragging, which is a very > particular form of partial entrainment, to be consistent with an aether, > but that, in turn, is inconsistent with the null result of MMX. (And > the Sagnac effect is used in commercial devices; there's no debate at > all about the result of that particular experiment. Your sloppy notion > of some kind of entrainment which would just happen to be consistent > with MMX in a basement doesn't make it in the face of the Sagnac results.) > > Alternatively, you can explain both experiments with a Lorentz ether, > but then you find yourself with a theory which matches SR in every > testable prediction. > > > > > > You seem to be more interested in cheap shots than science or truth. > > You misunderstand. I'm interested in science and math, as well as > truth. IMO your position isn't based on any of those. > > ------=_Part_113590_4945239.1172979081319 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/4/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
I will let you have the last shot; I won't be replying on this topic in
this mailing list after this message.

Fine with me, but you'd better read what I wrote as it took too long to type to be ignored.

John Berry wrote:
> On 3/3/07, *Stephen A. Lawrence* < salaw@pobox.com
> <mailto:salaw@pobox.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     John Berry wrote:
>
>      > It is the only possible model as SR is illogical
>
>     Well, that sure shoots down SR.
>
>
> SR has many logical inconsistencies
<snip>
To learn relativity is to understand it, and if you did that, then you
would see that it's not internally inconsistent.  However, that takes a
lot more effort than just calling it "illogical".

I spent years learning it, believed it, looked for holes and failed to find any.
Then when I saw them I was shocked at how obvious they were.

Here is a simple one, it's called the twin paradox for a reason.
If you have 2 twins and one stays on earth and the other one travels to a distant star and returns then SR states that the traveling twin still has youthful good looks while the other has long been pushing up daises after dying of old age.

Now what if these twins had some form of instantaneous communication between them, then we could easily measure the different rates of time each twin experiences, we could even find the stationary reference frame.

Of course SR says that you can't have instantaneous communication and relies on the doppler effect which will effect any light based communication attempts, but doppler time shift is not time dilation but a separate effect, you could very well calculate the doppler effect and reconstruct the real rate of passage of time the other twin is experiencing.

SR then says 'no no no, it's not the velocity difference it is the acceleration one twin faces that makes the difference'.
And yes the twin who stays home may easily go under more acceleration by being on s spinning body orbiting a star, driving everywhere.

Also the thing about thought experiments is they aren't limited to what is comfortable or practical only what is technically possible in order to exaggerate something to make a point.
So the traveling twin may accelerate based on either twins clocks to the final velocity (let's say .99c) in a mere fraction of a second.

Furthermore there are a number of ways to have instantaneous communication. (or near instantaneous communication that has no Doppler time shift)

One way is to have two parallel almost infinatly long trains in space, they start of stationary with the twins in opposite carriages, but first a few details.
Each cabin has a clock (which as designed to be easily read by those of the other train even at relativistic speeds), it is generally accepted that there are many ways by which a number of observes at a distance in the same reference frame may synchronize their watches
Also each cabin how it's own propulsion unit and again it is able to reach near lightspeeds in under a second by any observers watch.

Now one of the twins accelerates, each can keep an eye on the rate of time the other train is observing, if they each sees the other as experiencing time slower then themselves then when the trains are stopped each will have different expectations, they simply can't match.

There is another way however, you can have one twin stay of earth and the other twin orbit the earth at near light speed.
You see the twin paradox always assume the twins are moving away from each other but in the case of orbit where they can constantly communicate or for that matter merely flying by where they get a moment to observe the rate of time the other experience and communicate without Doppler distortion.

There are yet more problems.

Let's say we now have 3 parallel close trains with open beds, we'd better put them on earth so no one suffocates.

We will have 2 flash bulbs of each train, each a set distance apart and an observees on each train positioned in the middle of the 2 flash bulbs, if the bulbs go off at the same time the short sharp photon pulse reach the observes and he sees a single bright flash.

Now let the middle train not move, let the bulbs flash at 12:00 and at 12:01 (it's slow light ok ;) the observer on that train see a bright flash from each bulb simultaneously.
However at 12:00 as the bulbs go off the train to the right was moving down the track, at that exact moment the observer on the right train passes the observer on the middle stationary train.

The observer on the right train expects to see the bulbs flashes simultaneously because he was in the middle when they went off (and if there were a bunch of censors along the right train they would demand to see the pulses from each bulb advance from detector detector and hence must meet in the middle).

Furthermore in case you are unsure you could have (different colour?) bulbs on the moving right train that go off simultaneously and right next to the bulbs on the middle train, obviously the observer on the right train would insist on seeing the bulbs on it's own train similtaniously.

Now here is the really tricky part, if that didn't convince you SR is flawed as it require the same pulses to pass each other multiple times, in different places depending on the reference frame.

Now in the above example where the right train sees the impulses from the stationary frames bulbs simultaneousness, as does the observer on the stationary frame (but not a second observer on the stationary frame/train where the observer on the right train does experience the pulses simultaneously), indeed we could have the left train we have ignore until now also moving.

Now what happens when just as the observer on the left train detects the simultaneous pulses the train stops (or the observer jumps) and finds them right next to a second observer on the stationary train, this observer would have recieved the pulse from the closer bulb but not yet the more distant one.

So now we have to observers in the same place and frame, one who has seen 2 pulses one who has seen just one, so when the always stationary observer sees the second more distant bulbs pulse what of the previously moving observer does he see this pulse a second time?

BTW I am well aware of length contraction also however it doesn't effect any of the above experiments, it might require there to be different sets of bulbs or trains to be replaced by individual vehicles.

Ok, so you got me to reply.

SR may be wrong -- which is something to be determined by experiment --
but it is not inconsistent.


  because if you did you would
> agree rather than quip.
>
>      >
>      >     If so, how you do you account for the results of the
>     Michelson-Morley
>      >     and Sagnac experiments in your model?  These two brought down the
>      >     "classical" aether theories, along with the ballistic
>     theory.  (Or do
>      >     you deny that MMX actually got a null result?)
>      >
>      >
>      > Oh boy, do your own research.
>
>     OK, I guess that answers the question.
>
>
> I guess you didn't read the next part where I did in fact go over the
> reasons why the MMX in no way disproves an entrained aether.

Oh, yes, you said "maybe" their result wasn't really null, "maybe" their
experiment was highly flawed, and "maybe" "many" "better" experiments
give a nonnull result.  AFAIK the last "maybe" is flatly false; their
experiment has been repeated many times in a number of forms and the
results are consistently null.

The first "maybe" -- that their original result was nonnull -- is also
false, in that their result was null to within their error bars.

You also said an "entrained" ether predicts a null result -- that's
true, but a fully dragged ether runs into trouble with the Sagnac
experiment.  Sagnac requires Fresnel dragging, which is a very
particular form of partial entrainment, to be consistent with an aether,
but that, in turn, is inconsistent with the null result of MMX.  (And
the Sagnac effect is used in commercial devices; there's no debate at
all about the result of that particular experiment.  Your sloppy notion
of some kind of entrainment which would just happen to be consistent
with MMX in a basement doesn't make it in the face of the Sagnac results.)

Alternatively, you can explain both experiments with a Lorentz ether,
but then you find yourself with a theory which matches SR in every
testable prediction.


>
> You seem to be more interested in cheap shots than science or truth.

You misunderstand.  I'm interested in science and math, as well as
truth.  IMO your position isn't based on any of those.


------=_Part_113590_4945239.1172979081319-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 19:35:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l243Z1xj032467; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:35:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l243Z193032461; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:35:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:35:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:33:23 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Challenge for Jed, and any other unsure. In-reply-to: <45DEA1BD.2010801@usfamily.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200703032233.23614.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <41F9A95B5C164E45B5D900F94628E1C20294DFA7@CCUMAIL33.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <45DEA1BD.2010801@usfamily.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 23 February 2007 03:11, thomas malloy wrote: > Zell, Chris wrote: > > What conspiracy fans miss is that if all their theories are > > correct, it's all futile and irrelevant. How so? > > In the first hour of C to C AM last night Alex Jones of infowars and > prisonplanet.com was interviewed. I didn't notice any of the conspiracy > thread mentioning the bombing of the Murrah building, but it's another > fertile ground for conspiracy theorists. You're right Chris, if what > people like Alex say is true you might as well kiss your liberties > goodbye. I think that G-d confounds their plans, for the time being. > Hate to chew on Murrah any more than it already has been already, but there is something about the wreckage pictures of that building that has always struck me as odd. Nobody seems to notice it, certainly not publicly nor in any of the monopoly media. As a civil engineer, it seems singularly odd to see how thin the floor membranes were in that building. Also there appears other design insufficiencies that I recall noticing but no longer remember clearly as this happened sometime ago. At the time that this happened and the pictures came out, it certainly appeared that if this building had not been blown up, it may have fallen down on its own one fine sunny day. Without any more warning than the 'middle eastern looking men' reportedly fleeing the scene gave their victims. Yeah, I for one doubt that we would do this to our own as some of our so called investigative ministries would have us believe. And there were reports in the early hours after this happened concerning these foreigners. Unless of course the gov did the deed themselves to collect the insurance, but then all of our pols claim to be honorable men, and honorable men would never countenance the 'collateral damage' deaths of innocent babies and old people trying to collect a widows mite in order to survive their old age at least one more month now, would they; and do this just so a budget would balance for yet another civil service empire builder hoping to make his GS-14 into a GS-15, would they? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 19:43:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l243hjM0003517; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:43:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l243hifx003499; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:43:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:43:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EA406D.7010303@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 22:43:41 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <005f01c75dd4$7f43ace0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <005f01c75dd4$7f43ace0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have some issues with some of the things you say about relativity here. David Thomson wrote: > Hi Stephen, > >>> On the other hand, the Aether Physics Model solidly backs General >>> Relativity. > >> Say what?? SR is a subset of GR -- it is exactly equal to general >> relativity in the absence of mass (flat "background" space). > > Say what?? GR was derived completely independent of SR. The "link" > to SR was added later. The original SR paper aimed to show the > equivalence of mass and energy. Einstein published more than one paper in 1905. The one which is generally considered to be the "seminal" paper on SR was "On The Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" and it covers a great deal more than the mass/energy equivalence -- in fact, it's a complete derivation of special relativity, couched in terms of Euclidean space with the Lorentz transforms written algebraically. As far as I can see, there is one mistake in the paper, in the derivation of the transverse mass equations at the end of the paper; the rest of it appears to be solid (I mean, mathematically, of course!). None of it uses Riemannian geometry because Einstein hadn't yet mastered that, and no imaginary numbers were used because Minkowski hadn't added that little filip as yet. Minkowski's interpretation in the "World" space, with an imaginary time coordinate, came some time later, and was a side track, IMHO. It can be safely ignored, as it seems to have fallen out of most modern texts (though I believe Stephen Hawking may still favor that approach). Einstein spent many of the years between 1905 and 1916 learning enough math to build general relativity. (This is presumably part of what inspired his quote about having a great difficulties with mathematics...) In particular he learned Riemannian geometry and figured out how to use it to model gravity, _and_ he invented a chunk of what we now call tensor calculus. The "big theorems" are all named after other people but the notation used, even today, is Einstein's. This culminated in Einstein's 1916 paper on general relativity, "The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity". That's the basis for the theory; it's the "big paper" of general relativity. It starts with a brief discussion of special relativity and the need for a generalization, and takes it from there; in fact Einstein builds GR on top of SR. In section 4, formula (4) (page 120 in the Dover edition) is the SR metric: | -1 0 0 0 | | 0 -1 0 0 | | 0 0 -1 0 | | 0 0 0 1 | That's what GR reduces to when the curvature is nil, and it's just plain old special relativity. Einstein observes that it's not generally possible to reduce the metric to that over a finite region; it is, however, possible to reduce it to that at any single point, and it's possible to choose coordinates which reduce it to that at a point _and_ which reduce its first derivatives with respect to all coordinates to zero at that point. That's commonly referred to as the "local flatness theorem" FWIW, and the coordinates one obtains in that case are those of a body in free-fall. So, I don't understand what you mean when you say the theories were completely independently derived. In regions far from large masses, in which the stress tensor is nearly zero for a large distance in all directions, space is nearly flat and one can choose coordinates in which the metric is almost exactly as given above over a large region. In this region SR is (almost) precisely correct. In the limiting case of small masses, GR and SR become the same theory. Why don't you believe that? The result is dressed up in Riemann's clothes, and may not, at first glance, look quite like the theory presented in "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" but the use of tensors in SR just packages it all up nicely in an easy to manipulate form. It doesn't change the semantics. In fact the theory can be, and occasionally is, presented that way from the get-to; see, for instance, Rindler's "Introduction to Special Relativity". > GR shows that space-time influences and is influenced by matter. > You can't have matter without mass, so a massless interpretation of > GR is complete nonsense. It's not nonsense, though I could have phrased it better. It's also not an "interpretation" of GR: rather, it's a limited subset of GR. The issue is the limit: when mass densities are all small the curvature can be so small it is ignorable. In that case the metric reduces to diag(-1,-1,-1,1) and you end up with special relativity. Similarly, the low-speed limit of SR is Newtonian mechanics. >> I can't imagine how you believe you can have GR without SR. > > I don't see how you believe they have anything in common. SR is GR with curvature set to zero. That's all. If you disagree please explain why. >>> It derives the GR simplified field equation in terms of charges >>> from first principles. > >> Do you mean the linearized theory? Didn't follow this. > > The simplified GR field equation is: > > G = 8pi T > > where G is the space-time curvature tensor and T is the mass/energy > tensor. Almost. That's the way the Einstein field equation is typically written, all right (without the cosmological constant), _but_ G is not the thing generally called "the curvature tensor" (and T is more often referred to as the "stress-energy tensor", as it includes stress terms, not just mass and energy -- the stress terms are (more or less) what lead to black holes, in fact). G in that equation is the "Einstein tensor", which is defined as G^ab = R^ab - (1/2)g^ab R where "R^ab" is the Ricci tensor, "R" is the Ricci scalar, and "g^ab" is the metric. The Ricci tensor is the first contraction of the Riemann tensor and the Ricci scalar is the contraction of the Ricci tensor. It's the Riemann tensor which is normally called "the curvature tensor". The Riemann tensor is computed from the second partial derivatives of the metric, and it says how two geodesics which are initially parallel will diverge. In concrete terms, a nonzero Riemann tensor manifests itself as tidal effects. Special relativity, again, is simply the geometry of general relativity, in the special case where the Riemann tensor is zero. The Ricci tensor, which is the contraction of the Riemann tensor, might be called a measure of local gravity. If the Ricci tensor is nonzero, then a sphere of initially comoving particles will shrink in volume as time goes by (they will be drawn in on themselves). > > The Aether Physics Model equivalent is: > > e^2 = 8pi (a * e.emax^2) > > where e^2 is spherical electrostatic charge (from the Aether) and > e.emax^2 is toroidal electromagnetic charge (from matter). I haven't really looked at this yet. I got side tracked by your assertion that SR and GR are unrelated. More tomorrow, maybe... > >> Einstein's version of GR presents in terms of mass, and is a >> tortured process. But tortured or not, the concept that space- >> time interacts with matter is valid in both physics models. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 20:56:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l244u3mC006577; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:56:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l244u195006561; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:56:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:56:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:57:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <06f901c75d89$a38a48c0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unshackle and release the prisoner... 2W * 'kV/mm' * 'grams' = 2W * .9 * 100000 = 180000 W = 180 kW Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > I will only comment when you'll have released the power consumed by the 100kg > lifter ;-) > > Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 21:34:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l245YR6C018468; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:34:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l245YQNN018452; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:34:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:34:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EA5A41.5040306@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:33:53 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Frolov's "energy machine" Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >Hmmm...let the buyer beware. Say Alex manages to sell the >big casino, the one for over half a billion..thats billion >with a 'b' sports fans.., I would think that any buyer with >over half a billion simoleans to blow would be more than >rich enough to have the connections to enact serious and >ininvestigated 'retribution' on any who crossed him or her. Bear, I have no idea what your talking about. First of all, nobody with $1 billion would give it to Alexander. However, IMHO, if The Russian Science Fiction Author were ever to get his hands on $1 billion, he could buy plenty of protection from the Russian Mafia, the one headed by Putin. Russia has three generals who have never been defeated, distance, mud and cold. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 21:36:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l245a9WU022134; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:36:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l245a8lo022118; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:36:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:36:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EA5AC2.70006@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 00:36:02 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> <45E8DE0D.9010507@pobox.com> <45E99DC3.9000504@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73369 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > > On 3/4/07, *Stephen A. Lawrence* > wrote: > > I will let you have the last shot; I won't be replying on this > topic in this mailing list after this message. > > > Fine with me, but you'd better read what I wrote as it took too long > to type to be ignored. Sigh ... You're being so polite after I've been so condescending, how can I ignore it... And besides the "paradoxes" are such fun... so here I am typing a reply when I should be going to bed, and when I said I wasn't going to. > > John Berry wrote: > > On 3/3/07, *Stephen A. Lawrence* < salaw@pobox.com > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > > It is the only possible model as SR is illogical > > > > Well, that sure shoots down SR. > > > > > > SR has many logical inconsistencies > > To learn relativity is to understand it, and if you did that, > then you would see that it's not internally inconsistent. > However, that takes a lot more effort than just calling it > "illogical". > > > I spent years learning it, believed it, looked for holes and failed > to find any. Then when I saw them I was shocked at how obvious they > were. > > Here is a simple one, it's called the twin paradox for a reason. If > you have 2 twins and one stays on earth and the other one travels to > a distant star and returns then SR states that the traveling twin > still has youthful good looks while the other has long been pushing > up daises after dying of old age. Set C to 1, it simplifies things. Set the metric to diag(1,-1,-1,-1), 'cause it makes time-based intervals easier, but from now on we'll drop two of the space dimensions. If the distance is x and the velocity is v then arrival time in the stay-at-home's frame is x/v. Starting coordinates are (0,0), arrival coordinates are (x/v,x) and proper distance is sqrt((x/v)^2 - x^2), or: x*sqrt(1/v^2 - 1) That's the age at arrival of the traveler. Age at arrival of the stay-at-home twin, in the stay at home twin's frame, is x/v, and the ratio of the traveler's age to the stay-at-home's age is v*sqrt(1/v^2 - 1), or: sqrt(1 - v^2) As long as 0 Now what if these twins had some form of instantaneous communication > between them, then we could easily measure the different rates of > time each twin experiences, we could even find the stationary > reference frame. Instantaneous communication instantly leads to contradictions; see for instance http://www.physicsinsights.org/ccentipede.html If you introduce FTL communication you also must introduce a preferred reference frame. Instantaneous commmunication can be allowed in only that frame. (I think this is equivalent to embedding the manifold in a higher space and allowing certain shortcuts through the higher space but I haven't worked out the details.) Unfortunately in GR there is no globally flat frame, you can't generally even sensibly ask what's happening far away "right now" let alone answer it, and reconciling instantaneous communication with the theory would be stornrey hard, if not impossible. > Of course SR says that you can't have instantaneous communication > and relies on the doppler effect which will effect any light based > communication attempts, but doppler time shift is not time dilation > but a separate effect, you could very well calculate the doppler > effect and reconstruct the real rate of passage of time the other > twin is experiencing. I'm not sure I see what you're getting at here. Of course you can measure the rate at which time appears to be passing for a distant target, within suitable limits. Look at a clock with a telescope and see how fast it's apparently ticking. Figure out how fast he's going. Apply appropriate compensation factors. (Of course that shows you what was going on some time in the past, due to travel time delay in the light getting to you.) In a gedanken experiment, you're also allowed to imagine space is filled with observers all co-moving with your astronaut, who take copious notes on what they see; they can put all their notes together later on to produce measurements "after the fact". > SR then says 'no no no, it's not the velocity difference it is the > acceleration one twin faces that makes the difference'. That is what breaks the symmetry. Acceleration pushes you off a geodesic path, and in relativity geodesics are the paths of longest (NOT shortest!) proper length. Non-geodesic motion produces a path between two events of shorter proper length than a geodesic connecting the events. > And yes the twin who stays home may easily go under more > acceleration by being on s spinning body orbiting a star, driving > everywhere. Then you have two twins both undergoing acceleration, and you need to know all the details to determine who ages more. Neither followed a geodesic so there's no simple yes/no test, like "the one on the geodesic will be older". You also can't introduce orbits around bodies without stepping outside the realm of applicability of SR -- it doesn't handle gravity. You can use rocket engines to produce big accelerations, though, if you need them in the gedanken. > Also the thing about thought experiments is they aren't limited to > what is comfortable or practical only what is technically possible > in order to exaggerate something to make a point. So the traveling > twin may accelerate based on either twins clocks to the final > velocity (let's say .99c) in a mere fraction of a second. That's correct, of course. Intuitively, it shouldn't surprise you that any effect due to acceleration might very well tend to go as accleration*duration; in order to halve the duration of the acceleration you must double its intensity. > Furthermore there are a number of ways to have instantaneous > communication. (or near instantaneous communication that has no > Doppler time shift) Not in SR. If you disagree you need to be very precise about what you mean. > One way is to have two parallel almost infinatly long trains in > space, they start of stationary with the twins in opposite > carriages, but first a few details. Each cabin has a clock (which > as designed to be easily read by those of the other train even at > relativistic speeds), it is generally accepted that there are many > ways by which a number of observes at a distance in the same > reference frame may synchronize their watches Also each cabin how > it's own propulsion unit and again it is able to reach near > lightspeeds in under a second by any observers watch. > > Now one of the twins accelerates, each can keep an eye on the rate > of time the other train is observing, if they each sees the other as > experiencing time slower then themselves then when the trains are > stopped each will have different expectations, they simply can't > match. You have big, big problems in this scenario, which you have not fully worked out. Work out all the details and the timekeeping problems go away, but the details are a mess. First of all a long object cannot accelerate simultaneously along its length, because as soon as it starts to accelerate its parts (stretched out along its length) no longer share a single inertial frame. Furthermore, the whole thing must shrink due to Fitzgerald contraction, which means that either different parts accelerate at different rates or the thing breaks up into pieces (this is related to Bell's paradox, which has two accelerating space ships, one in front of the other, connected by a long string -- if they both acclerate at the same rate, eventually the string must break). The longer it is, the less it can accelerate without breaking up; if it accelerates at 1g, for instance, and it's more than 1 light year long, the back end will break off no matter how hard it tries to keep up: there's what's called a Rindler horizon about 1 ly behind someone accelerating at 1g. In general, if a very long train tries to start "simultaneously" along its length it will break up as all the cars shrink -- but that's just what the people on the platform see. The people on the train see something entirely different. In that FOR the train doesn't shrink, of course. Instead, they see that as soon as it starts to move the clocks go out of sync, and as far as anyone on the train can determine, the locomotive started up before the caboose and hence broke the train apart. If you just want to find the durations each party experiences, just find the proper distances as I did, above, for the twins. Proper distance is a Lorentz invariant, so you'll get the same answer no matter what frame you work the problem in. If you want to determine exactly what everybody actually sees at each moment you have a lot more work to do. > There is another way however, you can have one twin stay of earth > and the other twin orbit the earth at near light speed. You see the > twin paradox always assume the twins are moving away from each other No it doesn't. In fact the original "paradox" had one fly away and then come back, so half the time they were moving toward each other. > but in the case of orbit where they can constantly communicate or > for that matter merely flying by where they get a moment to observe > the rate of time the other experience and communicate without > Doppler distortion. The distant orbiting astronaut situation is very cool. See, for instance: http://www.physicsinsights.org/revolving_astronaut.html Dig that clock going backwards. Note that there's a Rindler horizon in there somewhere which keeps anyone from ever actually _seeing_ a clock go backwards. Counter-orbiting twins are entertaining too, and tricky to work out: http://www.physicsinsights.org/revolving_twins.html The simple question of what you "see" when you accelerate is pretty nifty, too. This came up recently on this list; I mentioned then that I had done up a rather elementary page on it, here: http://www.physicsinsights.org/porthole_view_1.html Sorry for the rerun. > There are yet more problems. I haven't seen any real problems in what you've described so far. Surprising results, yes. Counterintuitive, yes. Contradictory? No. > Let's say we now have 3 parallel close trains with open beds, we'd > better put them on earth so no one suffocates. > > We will have 2 flash bulbs of each train, each a set distance apart > and an observees on each train positioned in the middle of the 2 > flash bulbs, if the bulbs go off at the same time the short sharp > photon pulse reach the observes and he sees a single bright flash. This is one common starting point for deriving the Lorentz transforms. > Now let the middle train not move, let the bulbs flash at 12:00 and > at 12:01 (it's slow light ok ;) You mean the flash is at 12:00, the arrival is at 12:01, I think. Right? > the observer on that train see a bright flash from each bulb > simultaneously. However at 12:00 as the bulbs go off the train to > the right was moving down the track, at that exact moment the > observer on the right train passes the observer on the middle > stationary train. > > The observer on the right train expects to see the bulbs flashes > simultaneously because he was in the middle when they went off NO HE WAS NOT! Sorry for shouting. You have neglected relativity of simultaneity. In the moving observer's FOR, the bulbs did _NOT_ flash at the same time, and he was _NOT_ in the middle "when they flashed". The term "when they flashed" is FRAME RELATIVE. > (and if there were a bunch of censors along the right train they > would demand to see the pulses from each bulb advance from detector > detector and hence must meet in the middle). So what do they see? Don't just wave your hands, work it out. Use the Lorentz transforms, that's what they're there for. Don't try to "intuit" this one, it won't work. > Furthermore in case you are unsure I'm not. Been there, done that, this is a standard example, almost identical to Einstein's two lightning flashes beside the train tracks. He does that in "Relativity: The special and general theories" IIRC. > you could have (different > colour?) bulbs on the moving right train that go off simultaneously > and right next to the bulbs on the middle train, obviously the > observer on the right train would insist on seeing the bulbs on it's > own train similtaniously. OK, let's work the darn thing out (just one bulb color, sorry). I'll pick some distances, and I'm just going to do it in one moving train with one set of stationary observers. C=1. We'll have the bulbs go off at +/- 1 on the X axis, at time 0 in the stationary frame. Coordinate (0,0) matches in the two frames, and that's when the bulbs go off in the stationary frame. So far so good? Train is moving in the +x direction at velocity "v". What time is it, according to riders on the train (who all have synchronized watches), when the flashes go off? For this I'll need gamma, g=1/sqrt(1-v^2). If the train is the prime frame, the track is unprimed, then the transforms from the track to the train are t' = g*(t - x*v) x' = g*(x - v*t) In our particular case the events are at x=+/-1, time t=0, so we have t' = +/- g*v x' = +/- g*x The flashes are equidistant from the origin, **BUT** they didn't take place at time 0, **AND** they didn't take place at the same time. The time lag between the flashes, according to the clocks on the train, is 2*g*v. Again, simultaneity is frame-relative in SR. > Now here is the really tricky part, if that didn't convince you SR > is flawed It convinced me that you don't understand relativity of simultaneity, and you don't understand relativistic clock skew. > as it require the same pulses to pass each other multiple > times, in different places depending on the reference frame. No it doesn't. You only think that because you didn't realize that the flashes are only simultaneous in ONE of the reference frames. In the frame where they're not simultaneous the moving observer who was in the middle when the flashes went off (according to the stationary observers) doesn't see them in the middle, _and_ doesn't see them simultaneously, _and_ isn't surprised by this. The flashes actually meet each other at the same event in all frames, but that event is at different times and different x coordinates in all frames. The rest of this is all more of the same. You did not work anything out, you just waved your hands, and you neglected clock skew. Work it out using the Lorentz transforms. Then if you get a contradiction, it might be interesting -- but you won't, if you do it right, because the theory is consistent. > > Now in the above example where the right train sees the impulses > from the stationary frames bulbs simultaneousness, as does the > observer on the stationary frame (but not a second observer on the > stationary frame/train where the observer on the right train does > experience the pulses simultaneously), indeed we could have the left > train we have ignore until now also moving. > > Now what happens when just as the observer on the left train detects > the simultaneous pulses the train stops (or the observer jumps) and > finds them right next to a second observer on the stationary train, > this observer would have recieved the pulse from the closer bulb but > not yet the more distant one. > > So now we have to observers in the same place and frame, one who has > seen 2 pulses one who has seen just one, so when the always > stationary observer sees the second more distant bulbs pulse what of > the previously moving observer does he see this pulse a second time? > > BTW I am well aware of length contraction also however it doesn't > effect any of the above experiments, it might require there to be > different sets of bulbs or trains to be replaced by individual > vehicles. > > Ok, so you got me to reply. That wasn't actually the intent :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 21:37:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l245bFlx022883; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:37:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l245bELY022858; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:37:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:37:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EA5AEB.2070906@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:36:43 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73370 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: To Paul Lowrance Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance posted; >Please let me know if you ever want to debate the idea that your passive aggressive >ways of life is better than my direct ways of life. Correct me if I'm wrong Paul, but you seem to believe that it is possible to reverse the 2nd Law with an electromagnetic machine. Nobody would be happier than me if yo were to demonstrate such a dingus. OTOH, many people have claimed to have done so, but AFAIK, no one has. You may have noticed my criticisms of several characters who have made their appearance on the FE stage. They include; The Russian Science Fiction Author, Alexander Frolov, The Vaporware Merchant, Peter Linderman, The Inventor Joseph Newman, The Doctor Tom Bearden. These people have been selling their "information" for years, but AFAIK, they have yet to demonstrate a working machine. These people are particularly aggravating to me because they are IMHO, selling trash. This critique does not apply to Chukanov, any researcher into controlled fission or fusion, and Mills, who seems to be producing excess energy, and whose explanations have a basis in sensible physical theory. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 3 23:33:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l247X9l3012008; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:33:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l247X7xE011998; Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:33:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 23:33:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EA7623.2020105@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 01:32:51 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73371 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Hawkins interview Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; Last night's guest on C to C AM was David Hawkins the author of http://www.hawkscafe.com . Those of you who hold to the idea that 9/11 was a conspiracy will love his site. Mr. Hawkins bills himself as a forensic economist, and you have heard the truism, follow the money. If what he is saying is the truth, his actions seem to me like going into the Lion's den with a sharp stick and jabbing one lion after another with it. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 02:06:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24A6j0m013829; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:06:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24A6hkt013819; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:06:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:06:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAE4p6kXLrQbBUGdsb2JhbAANh0CHUQEBKg X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,246,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="76068767:sNHT7961832" Message-ID: <45EA9A2E.1060501@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:06:38 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Russ George challenges Branson on ABC References: <007501c75362$1fe0b8f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <007501c75362$1fe0b8f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73372 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >Hi Wesley, > > > >>There are good arguments that some of the dating is wrong for most >>deposits and fossils. >> >> > >I don't dispute the dating process may be flawed, but what does that have to >do with the quantity and variety of fauna and flora? Either the fossils >exist or they don't. And it is equally obvious that regardless of the >actual dates, a rich biosystem did not occur at the same time as an Ice Age. > > > >>The stability in that case would only be an >>illisionary product of massivily distorted dating. >> >> > >Could you provide a more detailed explanation of your reasoning? How do >dating errors (not Michel's type of dating errors) cause the illusion of >massive amounts of biomatter and diverse species? > > > >>It is always safer >>to assume a system is unstable and act accordingly that to assume it's >>stable and die having discovered your error. >> >> > >More flawed reasoning. Are you telling me that if we don't understand how >something works, we are charged with fixing it until we do understand? That >is how problems arise, not how they are solved. > >This is exactly what the GW debate comes down to. There are people who >distort their interpretation of the data to prove something is broken, and >then seek to fix it. It is the process of fixing things that don't need >fixing that actually breaks them. > >Nature knows what it is doing. The planet Earth does not need the arrogance >of our feeble intelligence to fix the climate cycle. > >Even if we do succeed in altering the climate, such as seeding the oceans >with iron, what happens when iron prices go through the roof and the seeding >program is cancelled? The resulting huge whale population then starves to >death for lack of food. Either that or the Japanese build up a huge market >for whale products and drives them into extinction. > >There were people who played with pure sodium, and when it spontaneously >caught fire, they threw water on it, which caused a major explosion. The >climate change problem is serious enough without shortsighted humans trying >to intervene. Even if we were successful in the short run, it is highly >improbable we could keep up our efforts into the long run. The best way to >survive global climate change is to adapt, which is the method preferred by >all successful species. > >Dave > > > Good points Dave. I can't explain the dating problems here, its a creationist debate essentually, there are other sites for that. Email me privately for those details. Suffice to say that I think the errors are large but the greenhouse effect should still be real. As for human action I think we tend to want simple answers to complex questions. Fertilizing the ocean is one such simple answer, far too simple. We need comprehesive ownership systems if we are going to farm the sea instead of just hunting it. Your correct, human arrogance is dangerous but there are times when inaction is equally arrogant and dangerous. The energy technologies discussed on vortex, peswiki, etc will help solve problems and give us the leway to fix the problems as they come. If greenhouse is not a problem then we loose nothing by going to alternative energy; assuming we are smart enough to keep the oil men and the coal miners etc from starving or rioting. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 05:17:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24DH8ZR026843; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:17:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24DH6JH026830; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:17:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:17:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:10:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73374 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven A Lawrence wrote:- <> Yes, I was (reacting to provocation) rude too. I apologise to Paul. I'll still be very surprised if he ever fully "bakes" his idea... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 05:38:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24Dc8NY014577; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:38:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24Dc7KR014565; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:38:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:38:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=IBQVkidfWsOWr7X6VihZR2KC2hrmsPsVhcXjtfvPq7XNPxotT3MqpLdcawOI9QqDh6XpDRmnJbSxmLUHyNYPoPoMtHzphtzRTm9AyEC2npuvEt7lzJKzvP1KtDfyamS3noFtwPYozcgJLrT1/1yNaCiM/M4VLQO/zaRVoWtyT0I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bJzMP+lIjlRh48p9+91Xvd58wmAZJwcAHG1qoa72XkVCXGVcwTd5tbUETL+jVWCWwt5gKMbKvNnzTIST+HDWE0nas6KvkicRfK9uT1nroVHYf1osNBbMBQ/zQi+aZ/mJ67FoVPhu7OXYEJmY9fUWhPsxyzE/F/vWE3HO2qB7WIk= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 02:38:05 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45EA5AC2.70006@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_117478_7620078.1173015485936" References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> <45E8DE0D.9010507@pobox.com> <45E99DC3.9000504@pobox.com> <45EA5AC2.70006@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73375 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_117478_7620078.1173015485936 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/4/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > OK so far? (Note that we didn't need gamma for anything here -- I > just used the metric to find the proper distances.) I think we can stick to thought experiments and dump equations. Einstein said he didn't understand his theory once the mathematicians were done with it. To really understand the issues you can't use equations which are there to shortcut real comprehension. > If you introduce FTL communication you also must introduce a preferred > reference frame. Yup, and that's NOT SR! You are dancing around the problem by pointing out difficulties with the model of a train (among various other side issues), yet you could easily choose to not have each cabin mechanically connected to each other. I can easily counter all of your argument but it will be pointless and long. So let's get to the heart of the twin paradox. Basically SR states that the faster you travel the more time slows down, and yet it tries to do this without specifying 'Relative to what', because that's why it's called Relativity of course, all frames are equal, it's relative to each observer. This is of course impossible because each observer demands a different reality, but SR basically says 'Prove it'. Because communicating in real time between 2 different frames can seem challenging it might seem there is a point, however this is just an illusion. First it's not really about communicating, but rather knowing the rate that time flows for a different reference frame and instantaneous communication is merely something that would allow gaining such knowledge which is admitted to destroy SR if possible, if you can observe what the true rate of time is in the other reference frames and they can know your true rate of time then you will either see that time does not slow down or both will agree as to which frame time is moving the fastest (which frame is the most preferred or 'still'). Neither of these results would agree with SR, so the issue comes down to just how possible it might be to measure the rate of time in another reference frame. Now it is actually very easy and straight forward to measure the rate of time in another frame, the only thing that can seem to make it difficult is the Doppler effect, each moment each twin is further apart (or closer together on the return) causing the viewer to observe that time is moving more slowly or faster on the other ship than their own time. There are a few ways around this, one is that the moving twin could instead by orbiting the other twin (or simply spinning really fast while standing next to the other twin, or vibrating). Another is that the moving twin could be doing a flyby, this give a chance to measure both sides of the Doppler effect and a moment where they can share true instantaneous communication right as they pass. However the simplest way is to simply to have one twin hop in a space ship, accelerate to full speed in the blink of an eye and hold radio communications between the twins. Sure these communications will be strained by the Doppler effect, but if each twin tells the other twin the apparent rate of time (based on the transmission) relative to their own then they can compare numbers, if both see the other as say 23% slower (or 23% faster) then obviously neither are undergoing time dilation, it is all Doppler effect. (this could also be calculated and be found equal to the expected Doppler shift) If however they get different values then they can establish which twin is in the more preferred or still frame. SR couldn't really accept either event because is is based on ignorance of the rate of time in another frame. SR simply can't work because there is no way to truly stop someone from knowing the rate of time in another frame. Ok, now I'll answer some of your objections. You have big, big problems in this scenario, which you have not fully > worked out. Work out all the details and the timekeeping problems go > away, but the details are a mess. > > First of all a long object cannot accelerate simultaneously along its > length, Incorrect, it is trivial to sychronize the clocks and each cabin has it's own means of propulsion as I said, the only thing you could claim would be that it would break into sections so naturally each cabin would be either unconnected or connected with something that can strech as required. The interesting problem you will have then is that if in a millisecond the entire train accelerates to .999 C then if you were in such a train you would notice the front of the train and the and caboose get further away because as far as you are concerned your cabin didn't shrink but rather gaps just appeared between cabins because the the who train stretched out at faster than C. because as soon as it starts to accelerate its parts > (stretched out along its length) no longer share a single inertial > frame. Furthermore, the whole thing must shrink due to Fitzgerald > contraction, which means that either different parts accelerate at > different rates or the thing breaks up into pieces (this is related to > Bell's paradox, which has two accelerating space ships, one in front > of the other, connected by a long string -- if they both acclerate at > the same rate, eventually the string must break). The longer it is, the > less it can accelerate without breaking up; if it accelerates at 1g, > for instance, and it's more than 1 light year long, the back end will > break off no matter how hard it tries to keep up: there's what's > called a Rindler horizon about 1 ly behind someone accelerating at 1g. > > In general, if a very long train tries to start "simultaneously" along > its length it will break up as all the cars shrink -- but that's just > what the people on the platform see. The people on the train see > something entirely different. Yes, they see in an instant the cars separate at faster than C. In that FOR the train doesn't shrink, > of course. Instead, they see that as soon as it starts to move the > clocks go out of sync, Only due to the the Doppler effect which is just a transmission delay and can be accounted for to arrive at the real answer that all clocks are in sync. and as far as anyone on the train can > determine, the locomotive started up before the caboose and hence > broke the train apart. If the front (I'll call it the front as it doesn't apply the power) and the caboose emitted a pulse of light when started, obviously yes you are right, those in middle cabbins would see the light pulse from the front first, but only because they have moved toward the front. If you just want to find the durations each party experiences , just find the proper distances as I did, above, for the twins. Proper > distance is a Lorentz invariant, so you'll get the same answer no > matter what frame you work the problem in. If you want to determine > exactly what everybody actually sees at each moment you have a lot > more work to do. > > > > There is another way however, you can have one twin stay on earth > > and the other twin orbit the earth at near light speed. You see the > > twin paradox always assume the twins are moving away from each other > > No it doesn't. In fact the original "paradox" had one fly away and > then come back, so half the time they were moving toward each other. I knew that naturally, I actually meant 'away or toward' as these are effected by Doppler distortions. > but in the case of orbit where they can constantly communicate or > > for that matter merely flying by where they get a moment to observe > > the rate of time the other experience and communicate without > > Doppler distortion. > > The distant orbiting astronaut situation is very cool. See, for > instance: > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/revolving_astronaut.html > > Dig that clock going backwards. > > Note that there's a Rindler horizon in there somewhere which keeps > anyone from ever actually _seeing_ a clock go backwards. > > Counter-orbiting twins are entertaining too, and tricky to work out: > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/revolving_twins.html > > The simple question of what you "see" when you accelerate is pretty > nifty, too. This came up recently on this list; I mentioned then that > I had done up a rather elementary page on it, here: > > http://www.physicsinsights.org/porthole_view_1.html > > Sorry for the rerun. > > > > There are yet more problems. > > I haven't seen any real problems in what you've described so far. > > Surprising results, yes. Counterintuitive, yes. Contradictory? No. > > > > Let's say we now have 3 parallel close trains with open beds, we'd > > better put them on earth so no one suffocates. > > > > We will have 2 flash bulbs of each train, each a set distance apart > > and an observees on each train positioned in the middle of the 2 > > flash bulbs, if the bulbs go off at the same time the short sharp > > photon pulse reach the observes and he sees a single bright flash. > > This is one common starting point for deriving the Lorentz > transforms. > > > > Now let the middle train not move, let the bulbs flash at 12:00 and > > at 12:01 (it's slow light ok ;) > > You mean the flash is at 12:00, the arrival is at 12:01, I think. > Right? Yes > the observer on that train see a bright flash from each bulb > > simultaneously. However at 12:00 as the bulbs go off the train to > > the right was moving down the track, at that exact moment the > > observer on the right train passes the observer on the middle > > stationary train. > > > > The observer on the right train expects to see the bulbs flashes > > simultaneously because he was in the middle when they went off > > NO HE WAS NOT! YES HE WAS ;) Sorry for shouting. > > You have neglected relativity of simultaneity. In the moving > observer's FOR, the bulbs did _NOT_ flash at the same time, and he was > _NOT_ in the middle "when they flashed". > > The term "when they flashed" is FRAME RELATIVE. No I'm not, It's all bunk... > (and if there were a bunch of censors along the right train they > > would demand to see the pulses from each bulb advance from detector > > detector and hence must meet in the middle). > > So what do they see? Don't just wave your hands, work it out. Sure, well SR is wrong so they will all see a very sensible results due to the fact that light travels in the earth entrained aether. Indeed not a single experiment disagrees with the aether yet many disagree with SR. Use the Lorentz transforms, that's what they're there for. Don't try > to "intuit" this one, it won't work. > > > > Furthermore in case you are unsure > > I'm not. Been there, done that, this is a standard example, almost > identical to Einstein's two lightning flashes beside the train > tracks. He does that in "Relativity: The special and general > theories" IIRC. > > > > you could have (different > > colour?) bulbs on the moving right train that go off simultaneously > > and right next to the bulbs on the middle train, obviously the > > observer on the right train would insist on seeing the bulbs on it's > > own train similtaniously. > > OK, let's work the darn thing out (just one bulb color, sorry). I'll > pick some distances, and I'm just going to do it in one moving train > with one set of stationary observers. > > C=1. We'll have the bulbs go off at +/- 1 on the X axis, at time 0 in > the stationary frame. > > Coordinate (0,0) matches in the two frames, and that's when the bulbs > go off in the stationary frame. > > So far so good? > > Train is moving in the +x direction at velocity "v". What time is it, > according to riders on the train (who all have synchronized watches), > when the flashes go off? For this I'll need gamma, g=1/sqrt(1-v^2). > If the train is the prime frame, the track is unprimed, then the > transforms from the track to the train are > > t' = g*(t - x*v) > > x' = g*(x - v*t) > > In our particular case the events are at x=+/-1, time t=0, so we have > > t' = +/- g*v > > x' = +/- g*x > > The flashes are equidistant from the origin, **BUT** they didn't take > place at time 0, **AND** they didn't take place at the same time. The > time lag between the flashes, according to the clocks on the train, is > 2*g*v. > > Again, simultaneity is frame-relative in SR. > > > > Now here is the really tricky part, if that didn't convince you SR > > is flawed > > It convinced me that you don't understand relativity of simultaneity, > and you don't understand relativistic clock skew. > > > > as it require the same pulses to pass each other multiple > > times, in different places depending on the reference frame. > > No it doesn't. You only think that because you didn't realize that > the flashes are only simultaneous in ONE of the reference frames. In > the frame where they're not simultaneous the moving observer who was > in the middle when the flashes went off (according to the stationary > observers) doesn't see them in the middle That is totally untrue. The moving trains frame does not effect distance. You might be talking about the Doppler effect again where when approaching something it will appear longer and shorter when it recedes (this is because the age of the light for a space ship is not simultaneous, the light from the front is newer where it is closer but the light from the rear is older due to the difference in transmission time hence this could seem to effect simultaneity and length but in reality clearly it is neither, this again is not a real effect. The observer in the center train was in the middle at 12:00 (and stayed there), he passed the observer in the moving train. You have not been able to argue the twin experiment in space trains (other than point out the need foe elastic) because in that case the 2 frames are effectively in real-time communication. But I'll drop that one for the simple situation of two observers passing (possibly at a distance as that offers more time for communication that is not Doppler distorted). You can't explain the train without making use of Doppler distortions so that make things neither the middle nor simultaneous despite the fact that it is known that that is the middle regardless of Doppler distorted optical illusions. So ok, no more complex models but how about the simple truth. That SR is based on ignorance, it is based on Doppler distortions which not only are clearly not real but are not always present, when they aren't (as with passing by or orbit) the true rate of time can be easily detected. Here is something I found which tries to explain the reason for the twin paradox, do you agree with it? There are two key points about the twin paradox. The first point is that when Alice turns around she knows the moment that she turns and all incoming data changes at this instant. Bob cannot detect that a turn has occurred until x/c seconds later. The situation is highly ASYMMETRIC. It is not a symmetrical problem such as would occur if both Bob and Alice turned at a prearranged moment. This is clearly again treating the Doppler effect as if it were real time distortion. The reason this doesn't happen in reality is simple, light isn't C (it is impossible to have Doppler shifting the frequency of EM and yet light be C). Even so it is treating the Doppler effect as the cause of slowing down of time which is absolutely wrong. ------=_Part_117478_7620078.1173015485936 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/4/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
<snip>
OK so far?  (Note that we didn't need gamma for anything here -- I
just used the metric to find the proper distances.)

I think we can stick to thought experiments and dump equations.
Einstein said he didn't understand his theory once the mathematicians were done with it.
To really understand the issues you can't use equations which are there to shortcut real comprehension.


If you introduce FTL communication you also must introduce a preferred
reference frame.

Yup, and that's NOT SR!

You are dancing around the problem by pointing out difficulties with the model of a train (among various other side issues), yet you could easily choose to not have each cabin mechanically connected to each other.
I can easily counter all of your argument but it will be pointless and long.

So let's get to the heart of the twin paradox.
Basically SR states that the faster you travel the more time slows down, and yet it tries to do this without specifying 'Relative to what', because that's why it's called Relativity of course, all frames are equal, it's relative to each observer.

This is of course impossible because each observer demands a different reality, but SR basically says 'Prove it'.
Because communicating in real time between 2 different frames can seem challenging it might seem there is a point, however this is just an illusion.

First it's not really about communicating, but rather knowing the rate that time flows for a different reference frame and instantaneous communication is merely something that would allow gaining such knowledge which is admitted to destroy SR if possible, if you can observe what the true rate of time is in the other reference frames and they can know your true rate of time then you will either see that time does not slow down or both will agree as to which frame time is moving the fastest (which frame is the most preferred or 'still').

Neither of these results would agree with SR, so the issue comes down to just how possible it might be to measure the rate of time in another reference frame.

Now it is actually very easy and straight forward to measure the rate of time in another frame, the only thing that can seem to make it difficult is the Doppler effect, each moment each twin is further apart (or closer together on the return) causing the viewer to observe that time is moving more slowly or faster on the other ship than their own time.

There are a few ways around this, one is that the moving twin could instead by orbiting the other twin (or simply spinning  really fast while standing next to the other twin, or vibrating).
Another is that the moving twin could be doing a flyby, this give a chance to measure both sides of the Doppler effect and a moment where they can share true instantaneous communication right as they pass.

However the simplest way is to simply to have one twin hop in a space ship, accelerate to full speed in the blink of an eye and hold radio communications between the twins.
Sure these communications will be strained by the Doppler effect, but if each twin tells the other twin the apparent rate of time (based on the transmission) relative to their own then they can compare numbers, if both see the other as say 23% slower (or 23% faster) then obviously neither are undergoing time dilation, it is all Doppler effect. (this could also be calculated and be found equal to the expected Doppler shift)
If however they get different values then they can establish which twin is in the more preferred or still frame.

SR couldn't really accept either event because is is based on ignorance of the rate of time in another frame.

SR simply can't work because there is no way to truly stop someone from knowing the rate of time in another frame.

Ok, now I'll answer some of your objections.


You have big, big problems in this scenario, which you have not fully
worked out.  Work out all the details and the timekeeping problems go
away, but the details are a mess.

First of all a long object cannot accelerate simultaneously along its
length,

Incorrect, it is trivial to sychronize the clocks and each cabin has it's own means of propulsion as I said, the only thing you could claim would be that it would break into sections so naturally each cabin would be either unconnected or connected with something that can strech as required.

The interesting problem you will have then is that if in a millisecond the entire train accelerates to .999 C then if you were in such a train you would notice the front of the train and the and caboose get further away because as far as you are concerned your cabin didn't shrink but rather gaps just appeared between cabins because the the who train stretched out at faster than C.

because as soon as it starts to accelerate its parts
(stretched out along its length) no longer share a single inertial
frame.
  Furthermore, the whole thing must shrink due to Fitzgerald
contraction, which means that either different parts accelerate at
different rates or the thing breaks up into pieces (this is related to
Bell's paradox, which has two accelerating space ships, one in front
of the other, connected by a long string -- if they both acclerate at
the same rate, eventually the string must break).  The longer it is, the
less it can accelerate without breaking up; if it accelerates at 1g,
for instance, and it's more than 1 light year long, the back end will
break off no matter how hard it tries to keep up: there's what's
called a Rindler horizon about 1 ly behind someone accelerating at 1g.

In general, if a very long train tries to start "simultaneously" along
its length it will break up as all the cars shrink -- but that's just
what the people on the platform see.  The people on the train see
something entirely different.

Yes, they see in an instant the cars separate at faster than C.

  In that FOR the train doesn't shrink,
of course.  Instead, they see that as soon as it starts to move the
clocks go out of sync,

Only due to the the Doppler effect which is just a transmission delay and can be accounted for to arrive at the real answer that all clocks are in sync.

and as far as anyone on the train can
determine, the locomotive started up before the caboose and hence
broke the train apart.

If the front (I'll call it the front as it doesn't apply the power) and the caboose emitted a pulse of light when started, obviously yes you are right, those in middle cabbins would see the light pulse from the front first, but only because they have moved toward the front.

If you just want to find the durations each party experiences
, just find the proper distances as I did, above, for the twins.  Proper
distance is a Lorentz invariant, so you'll get the same answer no
matter what frame you work the problem in.  If you want to determine
exactly what everybody actually sees at each moment you have a lot
more work to do.


> There is another way however, you can have one twin stay on earth
> and the other twin orbit the earth at near light speed.  You see the
> twin paradox always assume the twins are moving away from each other

No it doesn't.  In fact the original "paradox" had one fly away and
then come back, so half the time they were moving toward each other.

I knew that naturally, I actually meant 'away or toward' as these are effected by Doppler distortions.

> but in the case of orbit where they can constantly communicate or
> for that matter merely flying by where they get a moment to observe
> the rate of time the other experience and communicate without
> Doppler distortion.

The distant orbiting astronaut situation is very cool.  See, for
instance:

http://www.physicsinsights.org/revolving_astronaut.html

Dig that clock going backwards.

Note that there's a Rindler horizon in there somewhere which keeps
anyone from ever actually _seeing_ a clock go backwards.

Counter-orbiting twins are entertaining too, and tricky to work out:

http://www.physicsinsights.org/revolving_twins.html

The simple question of what you "see" when you accelerate is pretty
nifty, too.  This came up recently on this list; I mentioned then that
I had done up a rather elementary page on it, here:

http://www.physicsinsights.org/porthole_view_1.html

Sorry for the rerun.


> There are yet more problems.

I haven't seen any real problems in what you've described so far.

Surprising results, yes.  Counterintuitive, yes.  Contradictory?  No.


> Let's say we now have 3 parallel close trains with open beds, we'd
> better put them on earth so no one suffocates.
>
> We will have 2 flash bulbs of each train, each a set distance apart
> and an observees on each train positioned in the middle of the 2
> flash bulbs, if the bulbs go off at the same time the short sharp
> photon pulse reach the observes and he sees a single bright flash.

This is one common starting point for deriving the Lorentz
transforms.


> Now let the middle train not move, let the bulbs flash at 12:00 and
> at 12:01 (it's slow light ok ;)

You mean the flash is at 12:00, the arrival is at 12:01, I think.
Right?

Yes

> the observer on that train see a bright flash from each bulb
> simultaneously.  However at 12:00 as the bulbs go off the train to
> the right was moving down the track, at that exact moment the
> observer on the right train passes the observer on the middle
> stationary train.
>
> The observer on the right train expects to see the bulbs flashes
> simultaneously because he was in the middle when they went off

NO HE WAS NOT!

YES HE WAS ;)

Sorry for shouting.

You have neglected relativity of simultaneity.  In the moving
observer's FOR, the bulbs did _NOT_ flash at the same time, and he was
_NOT_ in the middle "when they flashed".

The term "when they flashed" is FRAME RELATIVE.

No I'm not, It's all bunk...

> (and if there were a bunch of censors along the right train they
> would demand to see the pulses from each bulb advance from detector
> detector and hence must meet in the middle).

So what do they see?  Don't just wave your hands, work it out.

Sure, well SR is wrong so they will all see a very sensible results due to the fact that light travels in the earth entrained aether.
Indeed not a single experiment disagrees with the aether yet many disagree with SR.

Use the Lorentz transforms, that's what they're there for.  Don't try
to "intuit" this one, it won't work.


> Furthermore in case you are unsure

I'm not.  Been there, done that, this is a standard example, almost
identical to Einstein's two lightning flashes beside the train
tracks.  He does that in "Relativity: The special and general
theories" IIRC.


> you could have (different
> colour?)  bulbs on the moving right train that go off simultaneously
> and right next to the bulbs on the middle train, obviously the
> observer on the right train would insist on seeing the bulbs on it's
> own train similtaniously.

OK, let's work the darn thing out (just one bulb color, sorry).  I'll
pick some distances, and I'm just going to do it in one moving train
with one set of stationary observers.

C=1.  We'll have the bulbs go off at +/- 1 on the X axis, at time 0 in
the stationary frame.

Coordinate (0,0) matches in the two frames, and that's when the bulbs
go off in the stationary frame.

So far so good?

Train is moving in the +x direction at velocity "v".  What time is it,
according to riders on the train (who all have synchronized watches),
when the flashes go off?  For this I'll need gamma, g=1/sqrt(1-v^2).
If the train is the prime frame, the track is unprimed, then the
transforms from the track to the train are

   t' = g*(t - x*v)

   x' = g*(x - v*t)

In our particular case the events are at x=+/-1, time t=0, so we have

   t' = +/- g*v

   x' = +/- g*x

The flashes are equidistant from the origin, **BUT** they didn't take
place at time 0, **AND** they didn't take place at the same time.  The
time lag between the flashes, according to the clocks on the train, is
2*g*v.

Again, simultaneity is frame-relative in SR.


> Now here is the really tricky part, if that didn't convince you SR
> is flawed

It convinced me that you don't understand relativity of simultaneity,
and you don't understand relativistic clock skew.


> as it require the same pulses to pass each other multiple
> times, in different places depending on the reference frame.

No it doesn't.  You only think that because you didn't realize that
the flashes are only simultaneous in ONE of the reference frames.  In
the frame where they're not simultaneous the moving observer who was
in the middle when the flashes went off (according to the stationary
observers) doesn't see them in the middle

That is totally untrue.
The moving trains frame does not effect distance.
You might be talking about the Doppler effect again where when approaching something it will appear longer and shorter when it recedes (this is because the age of the light for a space ship is not simultaneous, the light from the front is newer where it is closer but the light from the rear is older due to the difference in transmission time hence this could seem to effect simultaneity and length but in reality clearly it is neither, this again is not a real effect.
The observer in the center train was in the middle at 12:00 (and stayed there), he passed the observer in the moving train.

You have not been able to argue the twin experiment in space trains (other than point out the need foe elastic) because in that case the 2 frames are effectively in real-time communication.
But I'll drop that one for the simple situation of two observers passing (possibly at a distance as that offers more time for communication that is not Doppler distorted).

You can't explain the train without making use of Doppler distortions so that make things neither the middle nor simultaneous despite the fact that it is known that that is the middle regardless of Doppler distorted optical illusions.

So ok, no more complex models but how about the simple truth.

That SR is based on ignorance, it is based on Doppler distortions which not only are clearly not real but are not always present, when they aren't (as with passing by or orbit) the true rate of time can be easily detected.

Here is something I found which tries to explain the reason for the twin paradox, do you agree with it?

There are two key points about the twin paradox. The first point is
that when Alice turns around she knows the moment that she turns and

all incoming data changes at this instant. Bob cannot detect that a
turn has occurred until x/c seconds later. The situation is highly
ASYMMETRIC. It is not a symmetrical problem such as would occur if both
Bob and Alice turned at a prearranged moment.

This is clearly again treating the Doppler effect as if it were real time distortion.
The reason this doesn't happen in reality is simple, light isn't C (it is impossible to have Doppler shifting the frequency of EM and yet light be C).
Even so it is treating the Doppler effect as the cause of slowing down of time which is absolutely wrong.
------=_Part_117478_7620078.1173015485936-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 06:08:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24E7vu9020928; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 06:07:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24E7upX020922; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 06:07:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 06:07:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GWSVwVXJ7hTL+LoHqmbBjueUhApC+hvgghzer010X4Lec7GX7wa7e2Vl1pwNt5/N; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 08:07:31 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: <082d01c75e02$e8380740$3800a8c0@zothan> Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c260930a5094fe6a4f7e1e24475cc361aa0f8667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <5GK3MC.A.2GF.8Kt6FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73376 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You enjoy the MIB part don't you? In all reality I don't believe they pay any attention to some one making claims unless there is a device or their expert University advisors get nervous. For the most part they sit back drink coffee and Red Bull, each donuts and get a big chuckle from all the fools. But, if you are headed to the local Flea Market to begin selling devices or have a semi loaded and headed to the Ace Hardware, I feel comfortable in the belief you will be contacted. SO enough of that, they are for sure rolling on the floor in cackles again. Your idea looks good at first blush, but not being my field I have nothing to offer in aid, yeah or nay. As concerns standard electrolysis in water I have a bit of knowledge and that says that Heat is more of a detriment than advantage. The whole object of trying to stay below the thermo-neutral voltage level is to not internally create heat. I have yet to realize where getting all those little molecules agitated has a benefit. Now for Heat in the classic cell it is assumed that we can pull ~49kJ from the environment with the remaining 281kJ coming from our electrical input. This in itself looks good in that there could be a practical approach to using that cooling, but it don't hold for long and is far to slow for practical usage. So what does that say about Heat, in my work keep it away, the cooler the cell the better (no not cold, or below ambient). Pressure within the cell must be factored in, the 3.7kJ used to expand the gas can be increased by increasing the internal pressure. What may seem off the wall to some that have not tried it, is the placement of electrodes just under the surface of the electrolyte. Enough of that, I hope some one will comment on your idea as I have seen Heat Pumps easily fun at COP=9 and if I remember my reading can go to COP=12 (theory). If that is the case then maybe you have just not accounted for all of the loss that will take place. Indeed for Texas (most of it) a m2 of blackened copper collector can get you some real hot water. -----Original Message----- From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:15 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) OK, if the MIBs didn't intercept my posts which they probably didn't (no one has knocked at my door yet), it must be that my scheme was simply not clear enough to provoke feedback. I'll try and make it clearer through a practical embodiment: Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot and cold sources (2LoT not broken), and through an appropriate quasi-lossless gearbox replaces the electric motor powering the compressor of an average performance house heating type heat pump (COP=3 conservatively), which therefore pumps 400W*3=1200W of heat from the ambient air to the hot water reservoir. 1000W out, 1200W in, surely there can be no doubt that after the initial joule heater kick this apparatus will run standalone, drawing its energy from the ambient air (cooling it so ventilation will be needed, by say a 10W fan), and providing nearly 200W continuous excess heat to the hot water reservoir? Does it make more sense now? ;-) -- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 1:30 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) > Oh I remember now, Jones doesn't get my posts for some reason. But surely others got them? Robin? Anyone? > > Or wait, did they... did YOU send the two posts back to me only???? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:44 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) > > >>I can't believe they let my post through, I KNEW it was a good idea to post it during a total lunar eclipse! As many as possible of you guys please let me know if you received it too, let they know the free energy revolution is on the march! >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michel Jullian" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:13 AM >> Subject: [Vo]: Loop closed? (was Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis) >> >> >>> Jones, your musings prompted the following idea here: >>> >>> 1/ There exist well known mechanical-to-heat converters with a COP>3, namely heat pumps used for heating purposes sucking the heat from ambient air: you get 3 to 4 times more heat out than the energy you have put in (probably much more since the figure I am quoting includes the sub-unity electrical-to-mechanical conversion efficiency of the heat pump's electric motor, of which we would have no need). Let's call such a device's efficiency COP1, with COP1 > 3 (conservative) >>> >>> 2/ As you say there exist heat-to-mechanical converters with an efficiency well over 40%. Let's call such a device's efficiency COP2, with COP2 > 0.4 (conservative again) >>> >>> 3/ Now if we drive a device of type 1 using a device of type 2, the combination's efficiency will be: >>> COP2*COP1 > 0.4*3 = 1.2 > 1 right? >>> >>> So we can close the loop, mechanical-to-heat-to mechanical, with excess energy to power the car or whatever. Right? :) >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jones Beene" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 10:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: High efficiency electrolysis >>> >>> >>>> Ron, >>>> >>>>> but lets assume I can provide Hydrogen from water in excess of COP>1. Now what are we going to do with it >>>>> where the conversion does not eat up this gain? ICE engine is out! >>>> >>>> I may have to disagree on this point, as I am optimistically looking for >>>> continued advances on several fronts. Yes, fuel cells are out. Huge >>>> drain of time and effort. >>>> >>>> But ... both Ford and BMW have puts tons of money and man-hours into >>>> improving the H2 fueled ICE. They are not there yet but they can get a >>>> Carnot efficiency of 45% at single engine speed. BMW has gotten over 50%. >>>> >>>> Now at first blush - this looks to be of no great help because you would >>>> need COP>3 or closer to 4 to get anything useful ... even with a (much) >>>> larger engine to cover the parasitism ... but there are wildcards which >>>> built on the 55% waste heat of those ICE's: >>>> >>>> 1) thermo-electro-chemical water splitting >>>> 2) thermoelectric water radiolysis >>>> >>>> I don't see either getting close to COP>3 (compared to Faradaic) but... >>>> >>>> 3) either of the above, using LENR (perhaps Mizuno arc) techniques to >>>> provide more energy, and with or without ... >>>> >>>> 4) turbine/ICE dual engines where split cell water splitting is >>>> engineered so that peroxide is produced preferentially (instead of O2) >>>> and enriched in situ for use as a monopropellant in the turbine, while >>>> the H2 is burned in the ICE (or in a second stage tubine). >>>> >>>> All of these concepts are using waste heat, but realistically, unless >>>> the hydrino, LENR (or something unknown like the Graneau hypothesis) is >>>> also at work, and that extra energy can be harnessed as well, then this >>>> won't happen. Thermacore and Mizuno presents a good case that it can be >>>> done, in principle. But that is a far, far way from doing it now. >>>> >>>> At this point in time (terrorism concern) radiolysis is out for an >>>> automobile, but maybe not for a longer time horizon. >>>> >>>> The main point is that the USA should be putting the equivalent of the >>>> hot fusion budget into this! (including $$$ into your work) >>>> >>>> Jones >>>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 07:02:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24F2MFZ009976; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:02:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24F2Kag009965; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:02:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:02:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ohJlkvxkMKFdb1fUuc5tD7Eh73a3f/hlcqW35Fmc2kWnk8I0aV00PQU0LGlSN+Lp; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex-L" Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:01:56 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609d9712b02605844b7d3c4a7d9f2700251350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73377 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: H2O2 Stability Status: O X-Status: This is right up the Jones alley :-) Jones; you mention in the last post H2O2 again and I know that is your preferred fuel? :-) Is there, I have looked, a commercial method to produce peroxide via a water electrolysis cell? What I see is that it is for the most part mass produced by reaction? Because of the unstable nature of H2O2 does not the yield have to be very high in a water cell in order to gain a significant amount? Just wondering as I have had great difficulty in the detection of the product in a cell even though I know that it is being produced during the reaction chain. I guess I am doing something wrong in looking for it, but I consider it to be a virtual product, its there and then its gone. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 07:09:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24F9kVZ016552; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:09:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24F9ieu016524; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:09:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:09:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=geTtVw7q+RKwxgL6RVcVgf8w9PPepgAlE160xUGqNWdgppmI1yfXoordKM+9m4eBy56oHf0iD9TlqH3Kzv5irh1xknSgupjoIJ/6xCoFTBCUtyUZCbtineSamUhu37lr1iwC5GBVDgj7Gg9z+5kWUjrQrgZiRniRojHJVUuiUpo= ; X-YMail-OSG: 3hRnuwMVM1n_dGdZU0Yk1pwBwH8zrhe93DoGqSKCTPg83cgpUoG47nOTTlppruJDxXzQCvt1RyCY4a4iK50ExfF2IxfPRgcA_skLSmXzMPjlWm7JSBNwIS8VRanryuHM1Kybb5GiYtutsw-- Message-ID: <45EAE131.9050801@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 07:09:37 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4AHeZB.A.5BE.4Eu6FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73378 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Jullian > Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater > (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the > cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% > conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot > and cold sources (2LoT not broken), For whatever, I still do not get Vo mail authored by Michel Julian and a few other refular posters, so I hope that I am referring to the correct postter here. [side note: no MIB - this all goes back to adding the "Vo" to the subject line] OK Michel - if we are going to invent straw men to immolate, let's at least dress them in reality-clothes. This Stirling of yours must be alien technology ??) ... the one you mention as 40% efficient : LOL... whoa! is that some kind of silver-plated joke? Your "heated water reservoir" is at a kelvin temperature of little more than 400, giving a Carnot "spread" of only 100 degrees. OK... 102 degrees if the electrolyte is cooled by 2 degrees K due to electrolysis. Given the normal losses inherent in a Stitrling, this works out to "efficiency= 15 % conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 150 W mechanical out" In other words, the starting premise is so incorrect in reality, as to slant the whole argument - but curiously I will say this - if anyone can provide me with a Stirling engine which does, in fact, have a Carnot efficiency = 40% conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 150 W mechanical out" when operating on 400 degree K heat, then: ... Yes! I will absolutely guarantee you a self-powered system can be based on such as system !! Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 07:13:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24FD1rY019987; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:13:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24FCx3b019969; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:12:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:12:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=G7geoVaST/Azcq/dXpckJkX4Nw78ipVMlP5s5kfQzpJpcJ9m48N50ilZafvvxlIRmSF+nbc3JmHZkV4/sx9bead3BRRTxy+GLiDNL7CRYr/FbAWiFqotvQZwpyke/vd+wEEjDtJdWrWEBtsx+1v/IjvIgQogyZjacTixEbwTV+Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RX1FalgjTsDCkSdokwyE4kYyzpCSTiB6lnvDnQKrLuiKgUDIAGY9sgmdqVHeGU+pjYNd0xme0+eFt9FK3yJa1WFSMGobjk65fjPpD5eAVivTV57lbRy9gfL+2Cs4actLi65ob5UF/0KZp2wFGfQVprMql76F3Ps6dnglMtbBQzc= Message-ID: <45EAE1EC.4060609@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 07:12:44 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: To Paul Lowrance References: <45EA5AEB.2070906@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <45EA5AEB.2070906@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-Rz_bD.A.93E.7Hu6FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73379 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > Steven A Lawrence wrote:- > > < not shoot too many holes in theories even if they look like easy > targets. At least, that's my understanding of the Vortex rules -- it's > supposed to be a safe place to air ideas which are not fully baked, and > criticism is supposed to be constructive, if possible, rather than > destructive>> > > Yes, I was (reacting to provocation) rude too. I apologise to Paul. I'll > still be very surprised if he ever fully "bakes" his idea... Hi Nick, No problem and I apologize if I was too candor. It's just the way I am. If I say fuzzy logic then I don't mean it as a hand slap. If I say something like "It takes intelligent people to capture energy from ambient temperature" then I was not suggesting you are unintelligent. Hopefully people now understand my blunt personality. If I find the need to call any particular person unintelligent then I won't hesitate. Now that people know me a little better I hope we can all get along. It seems there are still two people who aren't talking to me. This seems like high school revisited. thomas malloy wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong Paul, but you seem to believe that it is > possible to reverse the 2nd Law with an electromagnetic machine. Nobody > would be happier than me if yo were to demonstrate such a dingus. OTOH, > many people have claimed to have done so, but AFAIK, no one has. You may > have noticed my criticisms of several characters who have made their > appearance on the FE stage. They include; The Russian Science Fiction > Author, Alexander Frolov, The Vaporware Merchant, Peter Linderman, The > Inventor Joseph Newman, The Doctor Tom Bearden. These people have been > selling their "information" for years, but AFAIK, they have yet to > demonstrate a working machine. These people are particularly aggravating > to me because they are IMHO, selling trash. This critique does not apply > to Chukanov, any researcher into controlled fission or fusion, and > Mills, who seems to be producing excess energy, and whose explanations > have a basis in sensible physical theory. Hi Thomas, I can't answer for those people, but from the start of my research I've posted on many forums and displayed an opening message on my peswiki page, "This project and research requires no funding or payments of any kind. No payment is requested nor has any ever been accepted for this project and research. This researcher has the necessary equipment and money to continue this project and research." I would not sell anything related to "free energy" until after I've *freely* published all detailed build instructions. First priority is to give the world "free energy." If and only then will I *consider* starting a company to design and sell *improved* "free energy" devices, but I will always allow people to make their own device. Furthermore, if such a "smoking gun" arrives then I would encourage people or corporations to freely produce the initial "free energy" designs for those people who cannot make such a device. I can show you proof that it's possible to capture energy from ambient temperature. I'll post this information in a new thread titled "Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy." Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 07:41:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24FfQ9P027856; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:41:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24FfP2V027848; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:41:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:41:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vpWR9XV/5GJ0B8+Lt6yLcSD/Wvj2ZoTruvZrE9xT3/zMiTWQD5xk8z0IEtryXvncXdg/xZ8yhDr77nwTpS0Gz5hD0LOlKcx2K8ryfK/C45aLL71he0figO1wUrv3Y42xZ+/9qLyhxIu6sm0q9zYVNBKFQWEbwsaDdU4nGWXas/s= ; X-YMail-OSG: z3dkQ88VM1kOm0OwUG1JvQX2q6MqyRbpn_RL9QgrhebeBCGQR1Ak0HPNS7wExgm6riO92yoAK.IuMRJlRGwYYZxRrIGXIJbdASo_Gh3fkSSO9OXyILZ.AwxI_ejM_CZvzlM1T4z8eMsg9Go- Message-ID: <45EAE89F.3010107@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 07:41:19 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: H2O2 Stability References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73380 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ron, > Because of the unstable nature of H2O2 does not the yield have to be very > high in a water cell in order to gain a significant amount? I have been getting some flak from associates for posting too much detail on this already. Our process is intended to go into the public domain soon - but only after an official entry has been made for the various "prizes" which are now being offered, or mentioned. One major prize is still in Congress, awaiting passage. This is a rather large incentive to keep the details under wraps for a while. A public domain release should be within a year IF we are able to perfect the system. It is designed for home, not factory, implementation, and must be robust without much maintenance. Actually there are many (too many) overlapping patents on this technology already, some from major players (with large legal staffs)and all we have done so-far is to pick-and-choose what technology to incorporate into an overall system or package that allows HOOH to be produced cheaply. It is not OU, but it is cheap. Those guys can fight out the industrial implementations in court - but what we need is a home system that anyone with mechanical skills (not the typical soccer-mom) can benefit from. BTW the best use for an automotive fuel is in conjunction with a separate ultra high efficiency electrolysis system - because that system can provide a source of pure oxygen as a "side effect" if it does not produce the HOOH itself. I will repeat some general details that I have already said publicly: yes, you are absolutely correct that the rate of formation, although almost instantaneous is of LOW concentration in the cell, because the best catalyst is "two-way" meaning that once a low equilibrium concentration has been reached, the system "works against you" so to speak - destroying the benefits. The trick is to use a continuous recycling or refluxing system to remove the product at slightly below equilibrium level - and then to enrich it immediately in an adjoining cascade. The second trick is to rejuvenate the catalyst cheaply (but that is easy to do). The major technical difficulty goes back to the issue of an appropriate separation membrane, and even that alone is not enough to enrich, as components are infinitely miscible. One needs to exploit several physical differences between HOH and HOOH to concentrate the product efficiently to the MGP level (45% HOOH) which is safe to store yet still robust as a monopropellant, especially when expanded with a little H2 "pilot". Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 07:47:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24FlHf1004551; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:47:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24FlBAl004472; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:47:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:47:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4S4FUr+oZn7oMwM5BdgNMugkI+2HtlbmbsfoZ3hLI7CPLLFEBzhZmdRU7INuhGX1ZZIgzNwDjeybKXnjhlvf/Gci2L7xQ8UsowhdD0zt0A22IJumEHaL4dtVUxjLee0SDmiGaIWUXOuRQ+WcaijuGCStAxcGPuaMZP0Ovg9YrRs= ; X-YMail-OSG: sLQc5rAVM1msI3dQROvCehZkf.PQRs663kuxRPDH1JhmxwrOphgmJ3816EvjxPa9_E2GTV3e1PNwm8U1yrIuj5bwbFDhGszV_yO7pKOwTJReNfOdEt2_jlDTxmIKCvk6VrycOMUgOvu1_ac- Message-ID: <45EAE9F8.6090602@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 07:47:04 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? References: <45EAE131.9050801@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45EAE131.9050801@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73381 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: oops... sorry for all the typos. My technical editor doesn't work on the weekends > In other words, the starting premise is so incorrect in reality, as to > slant the whole argument - but curiously I will say this - if anyone can > provide me with a Stirling engine which does, in fact, have a Carnot > efficiency = 40% conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 150 W mechanical > out" when operating on 400 degree K heat, then: Of course this should read "say 1000W heat in, 400 W mechanical > out" > ... Yes! I will absolutely guarantee you a self-powered system > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 07:50:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24Fo4fw032054; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:50:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24Fo3UK032038; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:50:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:50:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:40:16 -0600 Message-ID: <002501c75e73$71ed1000$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: <45EA406D.7010303@pobox.com> Thread-Index: AcdeD76urrp7dx+1RySVW0TPm0r9bgAXjwTw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73382 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, > I have some issues with some of the things you say about relativity here. > Einstein published more than one paper in 1905. The one which is generally considered to be the "seminal" paper on SR was "On The Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" and it covers a great deal more than the mass/energy equivalence -- in fact, it's a complete derivation of special relativity, couched in terms of Euclidean space with the Lorentz transforms written algebraically. There, you said it yourself, they are "Lorentz" transformations, not "Einstein" transformations. Lorentz developed a set of equations to explain Aether drift in a fluid Aether according to the non-null Michelson-Morley data. Albert Einstein plagiarized Lorentz's work by writing a paper utilizing the transformation equations and not giving proper credit. Nevertheless, if you want to claim the Lorentz transformations part of Special Relativity theory, then that is a demon you have to deal with personally. I'm not going to go there as I do not question the validity of Lorentz's work, nor do I attribute Lorentz's work to Einstein. The only original contribution of Albert Einstein to Special Relativity theory is his equivalence of mass and energy, hence the celebrated "equation," E=mc^2. In order to equate energy with mass, the rules of algebra had to be modified specially for Albert Einstein. I suppose this is why it is called "Special" Relativity theory. Einstein's equation is not an equation at all, it is a formula. Thus E and m are just empty variables, which could just as easily be x and y. There are two completely unrelated processes of logic used to befuddle physics students into believing E=mc^2 is an equation. First, it is pointed out that dimensionally E=mv^2 is a true equation, which it is for any one system of units. Then an unrelated bit of logic is applied saying that the maximum velocity of any object is the speed of light. So v in the dimensional equation is arbitrarily assigned the value of c, which breaks the rules of equality governing the dimensional equation (one side of the equation cannot be changed, without changing the other). But nobody seems to care about this sloppiness. To further muddy the waters, E is shown equal to m if c is arbitrarily assigned the value of 1. Once again, only one side of the equation is being changed, which violates the equality of the equation. The fact is, for any equation all variables must be in the same units. You cannot arbitrarily decide to multiply feet times kilograms without converting one of the units to the other system. Also, if E is equal to mc^2, then the following logic is true: E=mc^2 mc^2=mc^2 for c=1; m=m There is no equivalence of mass and energy, except if you make special provisions for breaking the rules of algebra. Since E=mc^2 is not a true equality, then every equation and theory based upon using E=mc^2 as an equality is falsified. Einstein's house of cards falls because the foundation was false. It may turn out that useful numbers were squeezed out of Einstein's work, but it was just a fancy card trick. Its usefulness is limited to a very few special situations, which explains why SR and QM cannot predict the same outcomes. Further, with regard to SR, if we use the equation as it is given, then the energy of a photon should be zero, because it has zero mass (unless you try to fix the problem by inventing a new kind of "thought mass"). Another big problem with the equivalence of mass and energy is that one is said to convert to the other in the case of nuclear mass deficit. The missing mass is said to have been converted to energy. But the equation shows that as mass decreases, the energy should also decrease. It is impossible that the same equation that equates mass and energy could predict that mass could be converted into energy, or that energy could be converted into mass. You can't have it both ways. Now I have just presented you with rock solid fatal flaws in Einstein's mass/energy equivalence theory. There was no equation to begin with, and even when the so-called E=mc^2 equation is used to explain mass deficit, it predicts the opposite of what we are told. No amount of logic in the later applications of Special Relativity can fix the fact that the foundation is non-existent. Now either you will completely ignore what I have said and start spewing all kinds of "evidence" in favor of SR, or you will do something that few others do and admit that I'm right. I suspect you will do the former. And if you choose to believe in SR, then the discussion has degraded from one of science to one of religion and I will not violate your right to freedom of religion. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 08:36:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24Ga84k020404; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 08:36:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24Ga5Hj020386; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 08:36:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 08:36:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 11:36:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73383 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What happens when you begin to use the hot water? Harry Stiffler Scientific wrote: > You enjoy the MIB part don't you? > > In all reality I don't believe they pay any attention to some one making > claims unless there is a device or their expert University advisors get > nervous. For the most part they sit back drink coffee and Red Bull, each > donuts and get a big chuckle from all the fools. But, if you are headed to > the local Flea Market to begin selling devices or have a semi loaded and > headed to the Ace Hardware, I feel comfortable in the belief you will be > contacted. SO enough of that, they are for sure rolling on the floor in > cackles again. > > Your idea looks good at first blush, but not being my field I have nothing > to offer in aid, yeah or nay. > > As concerns standard electrolysis in water I have a bit of knowledge and > that says that Heat is more of a detriment than advantage. The whole object > of trying to stay below the thermo-neutral voltage level is to not > internally create heat. I have yet to realize where getting all those little > molecules agitated has a benefit. > > Now for Heat in the classic cell it is assumed that we can pull ~49kJ from > the environment with the remaining 281kJ coming from our electrical input. > This in itself looks good in that there could be a practical approach to > using that cooling, but it don't hold for long and is far to slow for > practical usage. So what does that say about Heat, in my work keep it away, > the cooler the cell the better (no not cold, or below ambient). > > Pressure within the cell must be factored in, the 3.7kJ used to expand the > gas can be increased by increasing the internal pressure. What may seem off > the wall to some that have not tried it, is the placement of electrodes just > under the surface of the electrolyte. > > Enough of that, I hope some one will comment on your idea as I have seen > Heat Pumps easily fun at COP=9 and if I remember my reading can go to COP=12 > (theory). If that is the case then maybe you have just not accounted for all > of the loss that will take place. Indeed for Texas (most of it) a m2 of > blackened copper collector can get you some real hot water. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:15 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > > > OK, if the MIBs didn't intercept my posts which they probably didn't (no one > has knocked at my door yet), it must be that my scheme was simply not clear > enough to provoke feedback. I'll try and make it clearer through a practical > embodiment: > > Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater > (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the > cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% > conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot > and cold sources (2LoT not broken), and through an appropriate > quasi-lossless gearbox replaces the electric motor powering the compressor > of an average performance house heating type heat pump (COP=3 > conservatively), which therefore pumps 400W*3=1200W of heat from the ambient > air to the hot water reservoir. > > 1000W out, 1200W in, surely there can be no doubt that after the initial > joule heater kick this apparatus will run standalone, drawing its energy > from the ambient air (cooling it so ventilation will be needed, by say a 10W > fan), and providing nearly 200W continuous excess heat to the hot water > reservoir? > > Does it make more sense now? ;-) > -- > Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 08:48:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24GmZjJ005618; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 08:48:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24GmWSx005593; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 08:48:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 08:48:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 11:49:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: To Paul Lowrance In-reply-to: <45EAE1EC.4060609@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73384 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > I can show you proof that it's possible to capture energy from ambient > temperature. I'll post this information in a new thread titled "Proof of > capturing ambient temperature energy." > You know how to get ice cubes to melt at room temperature?! Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 09:13:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24HDIeH014351; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:13:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24HDHxI014334; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:13:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:13:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=qeiyflnjCGfLKcPoumkN5evgovfMT0qWYfzl8e8fj/1CclxsvoMm4137szLhy4wFpK8LKJ//ZqxIdkyRhD1+rSY6gMQwBHujz1zyVRK7J43PUZz0Mqn7MuJPtZVvqDfY0G/5PVgz7v3sfWCNdeVTPko5rjo/uNsFNAKEepdpOvo= ; X-YMail-OSG: mQ1dLvQVM1ls2vLB2B9UJzlj5YVAuJkBEkoQqZ48a0L.s7hEGH.KNF8cwF4mqQt7cwDdz52v5HjnIUvboXlAKsYJFpDu69XM.CAUA9pNNi4H4.6duUQ.WSrmOb8kdXFAEOo5PFrZ8aVsGg-- Message-ID: <45EAFE26.1020301@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 09:13:10 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73385 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Free Energy NOW!! Status: O X-Status: Jed will appreciate the new Steve Jones "warm fusion" invention. http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Steven_E._Jones_Solar_Funnel_for_Cooking Hey - it IS fusion powered, no? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 10:00:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24I05dQ010412; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:00:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24I00p1010334; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:00:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:00:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dUon4uxDBjnJSRP4mfLAI8oMb6T5wS4rFM6Zwv4TBWgoU+RX1ElqmwMBl1Kfx/OkUCsfAO7TTK/R4axG9xRskv9SdJ5tkM4omuudljtyIS+WlbTRQwXnnSYxnT97KnsYzkJi9JagqraunOsXItCDrm9Yzi69YxcrhxaQ+UJF78I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bqB8fLPvXSsfLNuhuZDo1VJNwFgplS4mYPOI7V+DSr+cfMdmqBBE+8rmFbKYLiqGfiWPHW+apDuxdQ891okAGH4eeIxGwyOaEEQZsyTwu7CLzeMnwULFhpjfJbQhOy+q7P1KnYAsI7tAMUA6P40rzPWAYSCQ3JLyhX7fhZvT4z8= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:59:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor In-Reply-To: <45D86F18.8010403@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> <45D86F18.8010403@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73386 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/18/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > One in this industry cannot help think this is a fraud. Let's hope it's the > "smoking gun." Unfortunately, it turns out that Mike hid a battery in his SSR. Busted! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 10:12:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24ICEDE016841; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:12:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24ICCar016828; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:12:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EGBjQydZLFKiMrTcmJ5ttpouuK3E3jCYlhWwtyhGLXatqI3nrWxYJ5mutsNQ3KSVWmRkyPLZL9zJgnzAJ2v1YQpQnXMsqikS7qFD7H/r57vWTaRrn6XWONran2wURwS0oJ17gK9Y+a0lpbbbDZ887uHiJ9vbVSaXathQe99/TbM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Up2UDCAZ9qe5pda3Zvt4KYZPG/kM9SrnTFbaU4RfSSM8CfFhBU+prF6p/hPVYWKQdo1LxquvoGEd1shz65AlqMmOrWIIBKHHh9xB/Hc1naqDDcce/VPKELMz17N4Y06b+JpEmGIcLU3g3tl24B5ka/zKq/S3ZtwLK/TJUY/bRfc= Message-ID: <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:11:56 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73387 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, This email will describe the simplest (as far as I know) method of capturing and storing ambient temperature energy. Hopefully those wanting to reply could first read the entire email since I'll address various possible questions later in this email. I was hoping at least someone would have answered my previously posted question to nail down their stance if they believe it's possible to capture and store energy taken from ambient temperature. Since nobody posted his or her stance I'll just go ahead and post the proof. This could be a fun ride, as debating experience shows most people won't be nailed, which allows them to weasel out of any situation, which is probably one reason there are so many formulations of the 2nd law. There's a well-taken 2nd law quote in the physics community by physicist P.W. Bridgman, "There are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions of it." Personally it's not my present goal or interest to focus on the 2nd law. Truthfully, there are too many 2nd law formulations, as one physicist may adhere to a stricter interpretation than another. My only assertion is that energy can be captured from ambient temperature, and here is how. Here is a clear-cut method to demonstrate the assertion. Using a low noise high gain amp and oscilloscope view a resistors thermal noise. This is an extremely simple task. I would be more than happy to provide anyone legitimately interested individual with a simple circuits to view such noise. You will see the thermal noise voltage fluctuating in a random unpredictable fashion. Guess what, you are witnessing a direct conversion from ambient temperature energy to battery storage. A capacitor stores energy in the form of electric potential. So where's the capacitor you ask. All measuring devices from common amps to oscilloscopes have input capacitance. If you want more capacitance than simply place a small capacitor across the resistor. You will still see the thermal noise voltage, but the average rms voltage amplitude will decrease. There's now a total of 4 pF if your amp has 2 pF input and you add a 2pF across the resistor. Lets say at a given moment you see 10 mV across the capacitor. At that moment you could unplug the capacitor to claim your energy. LOL, indeed it's a small amount of energy, but it is true that you actually captured energy from ambient temperature. If you want more energy then simply make more devices. Please note I am not stating this is your "smoking gun!" This is ***MERELY*** to demonstrate the possibility, to let people know it is indeed possible!! If you have the money and technology such as IBM then it's possible to make trillions of such devices in a small area. One device could be a nanometer. One hundred trillion 2 pF capacitors at 10 mV each contains 10 mJ's of energy. If memory holds true, the human eye in complete darkness can see a flash of red focused light of less than 1 nJ. One 780 nm red light photon contains just 2.5E-19 J's! Ten mJ's may not sound like much, but it merely demonstrates that you can capture energy from ambient temperature. This is not the best method of capturing ambient temperature energy, but again it merely proves the assertion. Again, in the nutshell, a resistor generates thermal voltage noise. All measuring devices from common amps to oscilloscopes to multimeters always have a certain amount of capacitance. When you measured that thermal noise voltage that capacitor in the measuring device is charged to that value. You can also add your own capacitor across the resistor. Your capacitor would be completely discharged before you add it, but at any given moment once the capacitor is connected to the resistor their will be a certain charged voltage on the capacitor. At any given moment you could unplug the capacitor to retain such energy. You could perform the same experiment with an inductor since all measuring devices have inductance. What you do with such energy is your choice. One hundred 2 pF capacitors charged to 10 mV is very usable. That's equal to a 200 farad capacitor charged to 10 mV. You could discharge the cap energy to an inductor followed by a quick field collapse to generate appreciable amount of voltage across a smaller cap. Or you could place a percentage of the caps in series to increase the voltage, etc. etc. Skeptics may wonder just how much energy is required to "unplug" the capacitor. There is no theoretical limit. How much energy does it require to move a nanometer filament a fraction of a nanometer? History demonstrates that the amount of energy required from an electrical switch has drastically decreased. Consider the FET, which on average has roughly 1E+12 ohms DC resistance. Sure, the FET has capacitance, but that in itself is stored energy. This is akin to how much energy is require to stop an object. One might think it requires a lot pressure to stop the object. Consider a spinning wheel next to a table. On the table is a hollow metal tube welded to the table. To stop the spinning wheel one merely needs to slide a metal bar in the hollow tube extending out the other end of the hollow tube, which jams in the wheels spokes, which abruptly stops the spinning wheel. The only amount of energy required to stop the wheel merely depends how much energy was required to slide the metal bar to jam the spokes. On many occasions I've described a device that has far higher potential for "free energy" than the aforementioned example. The above is to provide a simple undeniable clear-cut example. Of course there will always be those who will deny anything that goes against their beliefs. A more practical device that requires ***NO*** energy such as from a switch would be my resistor and LED device. The thermal voltage noise from the resistor will generate thermal current in the LED. All LED's emit photos at any applied voltage. It just turns out the LED is exponentially more efficient above the forward voltage level. In such a device the LED would emit more photons when connected to a resistor of high resistance. Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room temperature in complete darkness (no solar) there are visible light photons striking the cell. I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm common solar cell would generate roughly 1E-30 volts. Not much voltage, lol, but still something nonetheless. The amount of radiated blackbody energy is small in the visible region. Although the FIR region is another story. Both sides of a thin sheet of 1m x 1m material radiates roughly 920 watts continuously in complete darkness at room temperature. Technology is improving, thereby allowing photovoltaic cells to capture lower and lower frequencies. A Canadian university succeeded in creating a 1355 nm photovoltaic cell! That's only 1/11th the wavelength away from the peak 15000 nm 920 watts/m^2 blackbody 300 K radiation. BTW, blackbody radiation at 1355 nm is 2E+18 times greater than visible region of 600 nm. To calculate this I compared the radiation from 16667 to 16677 cm^-1, which is 3.907E-29 watts to 7380 to 7390 cm^-1, which is 7.499e-11 watts. University of Toronto in Canada achieves 1355 nm photovoltaic cell: http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/4/1/7/1 Eventually technology will reach the peak 15000 nm region where a thin double sided 1m x 1m sheet receives ~920 watts. It's difficult for a person to believe they are surrounded by a source "free energy" because we don't see such energy with our eyes. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 10:43:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24IguSb004364; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:42:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24Igtr1004351; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:42:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:42:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=SWeprtIOq8uLdv0uwEEH2ZvZvaZURA1rN3AMPOeov0PTBAgabxSA3GoTcLSqyZjQsVLZGoq6/cSMR5BxPzFuqbtitaK8k0SYpzVd0wS4Wt8R1K3S27ZoveLHTSeiaVYFAqlKW5rSWB/edLn1IGcdGOWXFow9CfDb0b7r3BgU76Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=sfNNGpGpqhpeCXOMxlLxkbK34xpu3sdkqRI5w/FBxayk/e91P0M2w/9YG8d1aTODEtmYXfwaNyw5YDhbVm6QIK/GFkG0EXQN7mhX1WAIfPqDuCtI94euyBcDMCpB2gwphhrGwV6rh2DXyiPugtI4DwyJPoiKJxPiZldkCkrd01c= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:42:54 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73388 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Oil and Wind Mix Status: O X-Status: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/03/02/two_oil_giants_plunge_into_the_wind_business/ http://snipurl.com/1bzxu Two oil giants plunge into the wind business By John Donnelly, Globe Staff | March 2, 2007 WASHINGTON -- Two of the world's leading oil producers have almost overnight joined some of the biggest players in wind power in the United States, accelerating a trend of large corporations investing in the rapidly growing alternative-energy field. As global warming and clean fuels have gained more attention, Shell Oil Co. and BP have accumulated impressive credentials. Shell is one of the nation's top five generators of wind power, while BP's Alternative Energy group -- launched 16 months ago -- aims to develop projects that produce 550 megawatts of electricity this year, one-sixth of the projected US wind energy output in 2007. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 10:59:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24IxOCM010290; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:59:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24IxOn1010284; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:59:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:59:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=V9yv5eu3OQECzFYsoT1t75N5FBlfxCZJaNvWSDMaT37XftvrWusDcix3GFB3oWEH0Q5BbkGPOgQketJgFWu8EpqW/hQ6Vzu7LBJ18VqlQWBv9gBX3Kx3sfD662msXNzBeXC+vuTE9kPncahOpg50460UY3Quylntpj2VFH8CDn8= ; X-YMail-OSG: kTmq_gkVM1miLD9Gd40yLP09splmHkyBTIURKBbAgx_uRXkswr46XzB2NCI7B6UQ2TZacZ.XySvKpGaXuJIgpo8fghLtduzjMRKkNBlcizP3.yhhP06KjVVPpI_f0Fuki96OiBLt9AiNIYw- Message-ID: <45EB1705.7050808@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:59:17 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73389 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room temperature in complete > darkness (no solar) there are visible light photons striking the cell. > I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm common solar cell would generate roughly > 1E-30 volts. Not much voltage, lol, but still something nonetheless. Well Paul, you might find that you can accentuate that small effect by many orders of magnitude if you can get hold of a large parabolic mirror. These can be specialty coated for IR. Once again, it defies common sense, but such a mirror will focus and amplify ambient IR photons. Even in darkness. Although this is very inefficient, due to the long wavelength of this spectrum - it does happen and in IR astronomy, for instance, they can get many orders of magnitude amplification. Get hold-of an IR spectrum photonic cell and also an IR (coated) parabolic mirror and you can make you own demo of this - and make it a little more meaningful than ^-30 ... geeze - you need to get it up to where an affordable voltmeter will show something. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 11:10:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24JAbH6018318; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:10:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24JAZQo018293; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:10:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:10:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EB1995.1010803@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:10:13 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: To Paul Lowrance References: <45EA5AEB.2070906@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20070304073322.01a12918@rogers.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070304073322.01a12918@rogers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73390 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: > A quick question: We all seem to be fixated on "excess energy". What > if one of the many innovative (or potentially innovative) ideas were > to result in an engine (a fairly simple engine) of some sort that > ***didn't*** produce excess energy, but did have an overall efficiency > of, say, three times that of the most efficient internal combustion > engine? Wouldn't that be worth pursuing from a practical standpoint? Absolutely, I have an engineer friend who says that he can do just that by injecting water. However, water or steam densification of the charge going into an ICE has been exhaustively studied. The efficiency does increase, but it's no where doubled, let alone 300%. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 11:31:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24JVAGo015856; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:31:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24JV9uC015849; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:31:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:31:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lnQSEyKhoaITZESiMVQUxT4ff8PTA2SeQPaYFT/rWj7042eBiVR0R/YN39RF9HFGBKjaAkzNhBPrt3X/kdfn5YrV8XkTxAi5ysdEu5Xn4rfWL43YrYzEoAEktwr6D2QxgA5P34U9TihwzdBw5tZrtuArenc5mrY7ArzAtvijMsM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=axPn+oYGiGH1aqEyWbFxtgjddX8SauxFHBolLM54RtJhdYOyjmmpdzSoZLkPq8boTMG9ERJSxph9SBCdxPJ0PVeFmKwZn0It4tsi0Th8bVbn7+kQG6j3HB8mR+J1Lyvxud0vsRSGZ0UAi0tDds3NwpdScPfNc5pNfgyNKYxWlSw= Message-ID: <45EB1E6E.6080508@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 11:30:54 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EB1705.7050808@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45EB1705.7050808@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73391 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > >> Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room temperature in >> complete darkness (no solar) there are visible light photons striking >> the cell. I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm common solar cell would >> generate roughly 1E-30 volts. Not much voltage, lol, but still >> something nonetheless. > > Well Paul, you might find that you can accentuate that small effect by > many orders of magnitude if you can get hold of a large parabolic > mirror. These can be specialty coated for IR. > > Once again, it defies common sense, but such a mirror will focus and > amplify ambient IR photons. Even in darkness. Although this is very > inefficient, due to the long wavelength of this spectrum - it does > happen and in IR astronomy, for instance, they can get many orders of > magnitude amplification. That's a good idea. Last year I spent a little time writing such a simulation program just to prove it to myself. The results agreed with what you say; i.e., you can focus blackbody radiation. Last year a gentlemen with connections to Nasa said a group inside Nasa not only knows about this parabolic effect, but built such equipment. Another person at overunity.com posted successful experiments of focusing such room temperature black body radiation, which resulted in above temperature. IMHO it's just silly to think we cannot extract energy from moving mass. Electrons traveling at ~1/200 c at room temp. As you agree, it is possible. Any cap connected to a resistor demonstrates this. > Get hold-of an IR spectrum photonic cell and also an IR (coated) > parabolic mirror and you can make you own demo of this - and make it a > little more meaningful than ^-30 ... geeze - you need to get it up to > where an affordable voltmeter will show something. Yes, lol, that's true, but the 1e-30 volts was another example of common visible light spectrum photovoltaic cell absorbing visible light black body radiation. The main example of my post was the capacitor and resistor example, which charges to *measurable* voltages levels. Although the aforementioned examples have very little to do with my main research, which is MCE (magnetocaloric effect), as the goal of such MCE research aims to generate kilowatts of power from a common silicon iron transformer. Don't get me wrong. I think such LED research or even Charles Brown's research is great! I'm just more interested in a device that anyone could build that for say a few hundred dollars that could generate kilowatts of continuous power in complete darkness. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 11:56:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24Ju9Kv006108; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:56:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24Ju9Wm006100; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:56:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:56:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=waaciB3eEEpcouNuXl1mrP+PJC8Dplawn3+xxrVN22myfP2XXKACM+pSK1xF6RVZy+1lME+IoucpYBSIaD9xiytc/0UvBGRPrCuqZSF0BDq5WdhKTCehIz/gF3Zm0nniwWNeyQDGT0dPmHbXExZ/vXvh3RR/IjF4HhII3cINKes= ; X-YMail-OSG: sK.yHFwVM1mTNMTI3b2qrme16QSGKavrF8Cy.m6dfxhkVagoHcUiI9hy9KRhtn8QKuN5qEweg4LWyKSGBNkmzjGU6S71SXIwUtvcvkk4IdPcxU3H4mjoSPPEWJjztLV_GuzKz2G12t50 Message-ID: <015601c75e97$257c3c40$0201a8c0@valued99a9efb0> Reply-To: "norman horwood" From: "norman horwood" To: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 19:55:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73392 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >>What happens when you begin to use the hot water? >>Harry It may be of interest to the proponents of heat pumps to hear of my experience of using a system in my 1st house in 1956! The system was built by Ferranti - a major electrical manufacturer in England - marketed as the Ferranti fridge-heater. I had our house designed around this system with a heavily insulated walk-in cold room which also housed the heat exchanger and compressor. The idea was to circulate the water, which was heated by the "reversed refrigerator" extracting the heat content of the items stored in the insulated room, through the indirect heating coil in the hot water storage tank. The theory was that in warm weather the cooling of the food storage room supplied enough heat to keep the domestic hot water tank at a predetermined temp. and maintain the temp of the food etc. at a safe level. In cold weather the Ferranti "Engineers" expected the process to continue with the food store simply getting colder in order to maintain the hot water at the set level. Needless to say they were wrong. What actually happened was that in warm weather the storage tank water rapidly reached the max. temp for safe domestic use, which cut out the compressor in the cold room, and the heat from outside warmed the food until hot water was drawn off in sufficient quantity to re-start the compressor. After a year of useless work by Ferranti and several replacement heat-pump units, the company withdrew the product from the market. I then installed a traditional gas-fired boiler for the hot water and a standard fridge in the cold room! The lesson here as I see it is to forget trying to balance out the hot/cold heat flows with a simple thermostat set-up, and rely on the inherent COP of heat pumps utilising a large enough source of heat to remove any possibility of imbalance. Norman Horwood From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 12:18:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24KIHqQ015475; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:18:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24KIDG7015450; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:18:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:18:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EYo9W9zRx8eKZx2vnx7y3DRcV7W+432oyIhtkrwlzu94IItqXtChmoILAH8fg7SuyoeTU0FdR5o3eSqBX8dzijmSHUtTp3Vr2cZlnIkqwBTyQ5kfV89yG08yfhVhJxqmR0MSiAY599cRjo7gNTQtLBsBnZ+ixuCG+2UOxRiApJ4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HA22AgV2blJ7wpi2y4ueeceK91WV4p/izCVQwkFeBC50EqOxsFPZVlxD9lG/mdPvuTQ8qZe+bXhBzsEDv+ASfXtON5FdSSXPkBGNxfxdlD/s7OCMoXGzyXjLBHs9Tn2DEf7jO+YmALOHb4ee8DT9eMMHqZM9mtIDfjpq3OSlp1c= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:18:10 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> <45D86F18.8010403@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73393 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I should point out that it is John Bendini's lab that demonstrated how the battery might have been used. Noone can reach Mike to verify he was hoaxing the motor. Terry On 3/4/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 2/18/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > > One in this industry cannot help think this is a fraud. Let's hope it's the > > "smoking gun." > > Unfortunately, it turns out that Mike hid a battery in his SSR. Busted! > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 12:38:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24KceK6025547; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:38:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24Kcc8m025534; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:38:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:38:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=TqJWKjwfHyVe1h/bzcfCDzicTPkgRRj0aQorg3sGUA9SBaTmxN61SOnx0VWjm1P2y4jmjZDukAfrDwpr6+vym0Pig9bDl8fFhAK8/QhDOESF3n80Zjdlh4JivkmTIJuUuJ0iXt3eLFE9+WglgZAQy4HTdg5UPUO1ziK0w4cy/Gk= ; X-YMail-OSG: RYRlOqEVM1nUY3zr81LPwFBqdWiDyOu.ZbmhAihJnrISbEovBmd4QCbcE7O69yDnzA5_wLTARkFoEO_nGIiwAiauSnMLTII3LHoOeeaeXH7r6_HV4tiM4z5rATQmi8STTjYD_W_S0HhRSMc- Message-ID: <45EB2996.2040509@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 12:18:30 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: norman horwood CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? References: <015601c75e97$257c3c40$0201a8c0@valued99a9efb0> In-Reply-To: <015601c75e97$257c3c40$0201a8c0@valued99a9efb0> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73394 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: norman horwood wrote: > The lesson here as I see it is to forget trying to balance out the > hot/cold heat flows with a simple thermostat set-up, and rely on the > inherent COP of heat pumps utilising a large enough source of heat to > remove any possibility of imbalance. Ha! ... but had they only known about the miracle Stirling engine, the one which is supposedly 40% efficient with that kind of heat, then they could have diverted the hot water flow in the summer months to the Stirling, and used the power generated from it to offset the normal grid power bill... Sounds silly, and the devil is in the details, but if it were reliable, that kind of thing would definitely have a market in the USA. As Fred Sparber sez: "most farmers will spend a dollar to save a dime" but then again, he was referring mainly to Pennsylvania Amish farmers. But Brits can probably substitute "pound" and "pence" in there and get the same sentiment for the thrifty Scottish farmer, no? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 12:57:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24KvObF009830; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:57:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24KvNmE009819; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:57:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:57:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 15:57:32 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy In-reply-to: <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73395 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > I was hoping at least someone would have answered my previously posted > question > to nail down their stance if they believe it's possible to capture and store > energy taken from ambient temperature. Since nobody posted his or her stance > I'll just go ahead and post the proof. This could be a fun ride, as debating > experience shows most people won't be nailed, which allows them to weasel out > of > any situation, which is probably one reason there are so many formulations of > the 2nd law. Nailing down someone's stance is not an effective means of persuasion unless someone's stance will lead them to commit a grave mistake which can't be undone. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 13:16:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24LGikH018804; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:16:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24LGhgq018785; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:16:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:16:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=U16iMQknabUA1s4DMXqjT6/nV++y71oqeqfpDfw0UtXsZRxwjlCrUU6fNZ/DARz6; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex-L" Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:15:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26096c7f1ae7752ce7bbb9fac51953ba694f667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73396 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RE: H2O2 Stability Status: O X-Status: Jones; That more or less answers what I was looking for, I guess the concentrations are so low and the species does not exist long enough that an Iodide Test offers great enough sensitivity? One last question, at what point in your process are you able to detect the product, right after separation or after multiple steps of enhancement and are you assuming existence or what is the measurement methodology? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 04:37:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24Cbhjx021952; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 04:37:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24Cbf8h021941; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 04:37:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 04:37:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=pyqsd5ZZYjG2N+LMOaIq33fBzU+B1Br/mw5XukWAkGHDr1ZXxhZ3/u2LGy8c+d5yhzvHIrmVtOQobM+kKcHSK2pXlWYWV+in7RQQoVrDdwEtv+4pXWjjudGP/pzz6r+XMm/JT9sIP6lhyHEQr2rEG1BPMymzs2lCAx22QNmhF0g= ; X-YMail-OSG: ihYdYfUVM1lLD8FN3j9c8GUpRUUHLAHBonn7OaxNEMebuDOHysM54aY0I_A6JdvQrg-- Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070304073322.01a12918@rogers.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 07:37:40 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: To Paul Lowrance In-Reply-To: <45EA5AEB.2070906@usfamily.net> References: <45EA5AEB.2070906@usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73373 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: Sorry for barging into someone else's letter... A quick question: We all seem to be fixated on "excess energy". What if one of the many innovative (or potentially innovative) ideas were to result in an engine (a fairly simple engine) of some sort that ***didn't*** produce excess energy, but did have an overall efficiency of, say, three times that of the most efficient internal combustion engine? Wouldn't that be worth pursuing from a practical standpoint? P. At 12:36 AM 3/4/2007, you wrote: >Paul Lowrance posted; > > >Please let me know if you ever want to debate the idea that your > passive aggressive >ways of life is better than my direct ways of life. > >Correct me if I'm wrong Paul, but you seem to believe that it is >possible to reverse the 2nd Law with an electromagnetic machine. >Nobody would be happier than me if yo were to demonstrate such a >dingus. OTOH, many people have claimed to have done so, but AFAIK, >no one has. You may have noticed my criticisms of several characters >who have made their appearance on the FE stage. They include; The >Russian Science Fiction Author, Alexander Frolov, The Vaporware >Merchant, Peter Linderman, The Inventor Joseph Newman, The Doctor >Tom Bearden. These people have been selling their "information" for >years, but AFAIK, they have yet to demonstrate a working machine. >These people are particularly aggravating to me because they are >IMHO, selling trash. This critique does not apply to Chukanov, any >researcher into controlled fission or fusion, and Mills, who seems >to be producing excess energy, and whose explanations have a basis >in sensible physical theory. > > > >--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 13:40:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24LeE4q007906; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:40:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24LeD1u007887; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:40:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:40:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=T9m6UaSroLu82JwEAKdyZFua2QYl2s9Hsdk0gvGK3y0ndl0wyQSEHrYiSXQZaEJb/PV7xnI9pLJYTgn3qDfbKN3iRF6EopOjC9iYseDuCU04KkvkFpJw6MW1Ge67rgWYRjCinBMR6IhWoHJd2dMuYqKSgUIIKySXFaYJ1NH/h3o= ; X-YMail-OSG: 4kT7FCAVM1k4CF6hqfhhr705LxypWk6qfh52YvLhY_YCXOASfzRCPRgxh7IaSHI0hKmYCOFhvNvRkV8zIhlzLQ_F2l91KtW6jkFZXZ8q8UIP5wKo2SmUxsBkS7PB0y3sGfI6v1q4ABbAg_U- Message-ID: <45EB3C7B.70103@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:39:07 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: H2O2 Stability References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <94qjlD.A.L7B.8yz6FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73397 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ron, The starch iodide strip will work, but the problem is that colloid is itself so dark in color it distorts the apparent concentration. IOW it would would stain the strip even if there was nothing there but greener rather than bluer, so that it gives the impression of a higher concentration than is present. Since little colloid stays in the reactor and the first cascade stage is nearly clear again(by design) that is where we test. A three level continuous cascade is the goal, not yet achieved. We are still doing batches for reasons of cost. The end concentration can be closely estimated by density alone. Stiffler Scientific wrote: > Jones; That more or less answers what I was looking for, I guess the > concentrations are so low and the species does not exist long enough that an > Iodide Test offers great enough sensitivity? > > One last question, at what point in your process are you able to detect the > product, right after separation or after multiple steps of enhancement and > are you assuming existence or what is the measurement methodology? > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 13:43:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24Lhfrj010075; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:43:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24LhccQ010035; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:43:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:43:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jTEtbBiRGN+i3sLZDj5R0DlBJ0JOIU/YU86CJP6qlcKM1ttl7d4N8ahPCP8qjHQrcSM9rDy8Js1IqP+OPJUPBMzr9YVPKKA1D8dGqLo7aGylBjxhSZY7Hw8VPonOjVTxoxCZaLBuc+WOtIQ+HtBOZJVZNfS0drHsDiPcvr05oY0= ; X-YMail-OSG: c0DHKvoVM1lCI7oTpVNlKWi.M.A168eVUxFUjCuy4d5DD9UdlK3AA6KAl7H.VlrztnznzTYaO2OM.nCDfVSZnIkaNJVUKDrN1uRQ64Dgi3dbUA-- Message-ID: <45EB3D48.6040707@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 13:42:32 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: H2O2 Stability References: <45EB3C7B.70103@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45EB3C7B.70103@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73398 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Meant to say "all the colloid stays in the reactor" > Since little colloid stays in the reactor From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 14:11:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24MB2Mt001659; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:11:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24MAxj3001575; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:10:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:10:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=EKBs2ciWJtBNjFZjjyl5Hx1fWTe4OVz2/PQ/zAV2/sRemUexle9MLEII+wce/7QkrvGAYAyzVRf6Nr2Ba8AAoXw6hPme6ISR/zrs2gk3cB2O0/JanozcILkA2+zXan1cYVEBZS9jErQSaZ0QPtL7p3bg1wICy/qxtjQIBxZ+ZB4= ; X-YMail-OSG: fLcdPQcVM1lUBCkbByTJUlGeNhh0nrruY_Oa8SupEKnDPHYxcqZqHHeDtXY3vMyGT.JJrfKKvxHO_Id15sMNw7t8UQKbiY0Cak3cUVqhoQjAsLKx7xCSmHloodhtx7nap6Lr5ISwBg9k Message-ID: <017601c75ea9$d2bca1d0$0201a8c0@valued99a9efb0> Reply-To: "norman horwood" From: "norman horwood" To: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 22:09:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73399 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote >Ha! ... but had they only known about the miracle Stirling engine, the >one which is supposedly 40% efficient with that kind of heat, then they >could have diverted the hot water flow in the summer months to the >Stirling, and used the power generated from it to offset the normal grid >power bill... Sounds silly, and the devil is in the details, but if it >were reliable, that kind of thing would definitely have a market in the >USA. Good point, but we are talking about the stone age here -1956 !! Anyway I'm not sure what would be the minimum back-feed to the grid required to support the expense of the control switchgear. I also forgot to mention another idiosyncrasy of this lousy system, namely that in winter the heat exchanger in the cold room became totally blocked with snow from condensed water vapour, reducing to zero any heat transfer! The Ferranti boys were too clever by half. Not long after this product failure the Ferranti group went belly-up, although they were partners with Bristol Aeroplane Co. in developing the very successful ramjet powered Bloodhound SAM (on which I had been working for the previous several years!!). Norman. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 14:46:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24MkKIZ031919; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:46:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24MkJqW031892; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:46:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:46:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <093501c75eaf$34d91c40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:48:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l24MkHgn031801 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73400 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When you begin to use the heat from the hot reservoir (launch the Sterling) it would tend to cool down from the thermal watts you draw from it, but since simultaneously you pour more thermal watts into it than you draw from it it heats up instead, with the extra heat coming from ambient air. Jones may be right 40% may be overestimated for the Sterling's efficiency, let's use his figure 15% instead, but Ron may also be right that I grossly underestimated the heat pump COP. If indeed heat pumps can easily run at COP=9, the overall COP would be: 0.15*9=1.35 which would be even more overunity. Sterling draws 1000W heat from hot reservoir (not necessarily water BTW) and outputs 150W mechanical. Heat pump draws 150W*9=1350W from ambient air and outputs them to the hot tank. Net power into the hot tank: 350W Anything wrong with this Jones? ;-) (someone "read" by Jones please answer this post so he gets it, thanks) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > What happens when you begin to use the hot water? > > Harry > > Stiffler Scientific wrote: ... >> Enough of that, I hope some one will comment on your idea as I have seen >> Heat Pumps easily fun at COP=9 and if I remember my reading can go to COP=12 >> (theory). If that is the case then maybe you have just not accounted for all >> of the loss that will take place. Indeed for Texas (most of it) a m2 of >> blackened copper collector can get you some real hot water. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] >> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:15 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >> >> >> OK, if the MIBs didn't intercept my posts which they probably didn't (no one >> has knocked at my door yet), it must be that my scheme was simply not clear >> enough to provoke feedback. I'll try and make it clearer through a practical >> embodiment: >> >> Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater >> (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the >> cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% >> conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot >> and cold sources (2LoT not broken), and through an appropriate >> quasi-lossless gearbox replaces the electric motor powering the compressor >> of an average performance house heating type heat pump (COP=3 >> conservatively), which therefore pumps 400W*3=1200W of heat from the ambient >> air to the hot water reservoir. >> >> 1000W out, 1200W in, surely there can be no doubt that after the initial >> joule heater kick this apparatus will run standalone, drawing its energy >> from the ambient air (cooling it so ventilation will be needed, by say a 10W >> fan), and providing nearly 200W continuous excess heat to the hot water >> reservoir? >> >> Does it make more sense now? ;-) >> -- >> Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 15:32:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l24NW6VY015176; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:32:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l24NW313015139; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:32:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:32:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=JZzyQ1N7lEPn5ax4nIS/TuZfWXBtlcpG9v54jMYr7WN9nLtu+ONf2l6IiqtncsrdMLyNQ9SDQ67n86xJ9mXi2fKyEZlaRSdw2KAbDK4U0j2ot18nfUED/A76DHOFAV5yjYM8XhCEdE5rSPDIrnTspQEVlRgiNNhReT3BRdul7ao= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Cz2v6XGr8uThaNF4FP22X+hP77x0zRspzK8qxzGcnVDdT5f/bg8mdILZBgnmVHmDBZsnnyTSrGGvFkr0ixNdkh0MP71tyLqfVVI1grn//gIVbGUkZKU2Qt+jTSKzo+d9U3bAckun3JJinAP1HzLxwWviwZgsE6lbbt1Tr/rzIPs= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:31:02 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73401 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: . . . moved to July: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1 and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 16:38:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l250cFfF011569; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:38:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l250c2LX011518; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:38:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:38:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EB664A.4080001@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:37:30 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <43k92D.A.tzC.pZ26FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73402 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: the Aether Status: O X-Status: I forwarded the email below, along with this comment to Hal Puthoff, who is interested in reading what David Thomsom or Steven has published on the Aether. He can be reached at puthoff@aol.com This email raises some good questions about the Aether. Richard Hoagland of Enterprise Mission talks about Hyperdimensional Physics, the excess energy emitted by Jupiter and Saturn is coming from another dimension. , David Thomson wrote: > Hi Stephen, > >>> On the other hand, the Aether Physics Model solidly backs General >>> Relativity. > >> Say what?? SR is a subset of GR -- it is exactly equal to general >> relativity in the absence of mass (flat "background" space). > > Say what?? GR was derived completely independent of SR. The "link" > to SR was added later. The original SR paper aimed to show the > equivalence of mass and energy. Einstein published more than one paper in 1905. The one which is generally considered to be the "seminal" paper on SR was "On The Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" and it covers a great deal more than the mass/energy equivalence -- in fact, it's a complete derivation of special relativity, couched in terms of Euclidean space with the Lorentz transforms written algebraically. As far as I can see, there is one mistake in the paper, in the deriva --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 16:38:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l250ccCe011677; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:38:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l250cb6M011658; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:38:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:38:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GQF0ijmQKIcDYfeDZpLv9HqBZgW5t03VlL+OvWGwR/F65przYF130oJnSJ/rmdAkfq6p+lyfYqYkuzIEpDCPe7U/HSQGxHTDkOJArWn+0G7kSy9IZAhKM5/eoir0/fVikkt0IhBAKfJe3F/NTMZEQIffwuX1N956CqM/jrcn/Y0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y/1qLOdFbvYRpUAYs+8FqwpVNimswI/flXqcZV8MYZrE8aTSJx7ZlCOdOLWIgAW+7xhF9F6ogsVLo7AOIXJfyfzKKavxECVxT0UU9l1dUtE1QyHw5IuG5Kn8aKFO/vGcZ2iDpR8LNOQTJ0tQx7pIbXJDOOqSSZ6FSU/8Kd2DuHc= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:38:35 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor In-Reply-To: <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73403 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i cant get the video to play. how long does he discharge? electrolytic caps have a discharge cycle, if its a quick flash, theres still some juice in there. On 2/17/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 2/17/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > > >> Time will tell. But unlike the Steorn shenanigans and > >> carefully inflicted drama, this time we will likely > >> have a pretty good answer by next week. > > > > It looks like a Bendini variant. Reading the thread, the experimenter > > admits that the motor stops eventually when he removes the power. > > > > Mike's device runs on its ***OWN*** power. Mike has stated many times the motor > runs until he deliberately stops the motor, which is usually several hours. One > time Mike left the motor running over night to awaken to a broken motor. > > > > > > That 47,000 uF cap will keep it going for quite a while. > > > If you would look at the video you would see Mike discharges the cap, gives a > slight twist on the motor to get it going. You can clearly see the motor > continues to accelerate significantly faster after Mike lets go. > > > > This is clearly the "Smoking Gun" ***UNLESS*** Mike is being deceitful. Only > time will tell which is the case. > > > > Paul > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 16:56:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l250ttJA027264; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:55:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l250tsVn027249; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:55:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:55:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=R1Y8lzQwy7p9onzCSo3TtK3kkow3Sm8WT68jzujRSH36MDQQEtQwlVxtJouWTMRcW52ewYt9k5/rtTbPJAoSr2pvoV3WIyxrcSgPazyM8LIgBqAfiaPV4drYdIRpf3iX/Iur/ZbWiLgWDO1HuAkG1b3YgzHLz58yCgR1IqxhQcw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kkaW3g9wvDCIk/x7CQu8EemgnmqLO1XJcuvddAgF9fpY/C37vSSC+nhGhb9N/oNEGJm3k1WM5kRmFa9BBzp6Ank8alY2yt/BBIo1HJfDPbRKOnpEMuvyFqE1wONUsC4axSe8oNcW4qf5mVol3DUSdmat8mnl6LRvJij+aPMjuRY= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:55:52 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_125898_17224499.1173056152478" References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73404 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_125898_17224499.1173056152478 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For several seconds On 3/5/07, leaking pen wrote: > > i cant get the video to play. how long does he discharge? > electrolytic caps have a discharge cycle, if its a quick flash, theres > still some juice in there. > > On 2/17/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > On 2/17/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > > > > >> Time will tell. But unlike the Steorn shenanigans and > > >> carefully inflicted drama, this time we will likely > > >> have a pretty good answer by next week. > > > > > > It looks like a Bendini variant. Reading the thread, the > experimenter > > > admits that the motor stops eventually when he removes the power. > > > > > > > > Mike's device runs on its ***OWN*** power. Mike has stated many times > the motor > > runs until he deliberately stops the motor, which is usually several > hours. One > > time Mike left the motor running over night to awaken to a broken motor. > > > > > > > > > > > That 47,000 uF cap will keep it going for quite a while. > > > > > > If you would look at the video you would see Mike discharges the cap, > gives a > > slight twist on the motor to get it going. You can clearly see the motor > > continues to accelerate significantly faster after Mike lets go. > > > > > > > > This is clearly the "Smoking Gun" ***UNLESS*** Mike is being > deceitful. Only > > time will tell which is the case. > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > -- > That which yields isn't always weak. > > ------=_Part_125898_17224499.1173056152478 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For several seconds

On 3/5/07, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
i cant get the video to play. how long does he discharge?
electrolytic caps have a discharge cycle, if its a quick flash, theres
still some juice in there.

On 2/17/07, energymover@gmail.com <energymover@gmail.com> wrote:
> Terry Blanton wrote:
>  > On 2/17/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
>  >
>  >> Time will tell. But unlike the Steorn shenanigans and
>  >> carefully inflicted drama, this time we will likely
>  >> have a pretty good answer by next week.
>  >
>  > It looks like a Bendini variant.  Reading the thread, the experimenter
>  > admits that the motor stops eventually when he removes the power.
>
>
>
> Mike's device runs on its ***OWN*** power.  Mike has stated many times the motor
> runs until he deliberately stops the motor, which is usually several hours.  One
> time Mike left the motor running over night to awaken to a broken motor.
>
>
>
>
>  > That 47,000 uF cap will keep it going for quite a while.
>
>
> If you would look at the video you would see Mike discharges the cap, gives a
> slight twist on the motor to get it going. You can clearly see the motor
> continues to accelerate significantly faster after Mike lets go.
>
>
>
> This is clearly the "Smoking Gun" ***UNLESS*** Mike is being deceitful.  Only
> time will tell which is the case.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>


--
That which yields isn't always weak.


------=_Part_125898_17224499.1173056152478-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 17:08:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2517wIZ031406; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:07:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2517v9D031386; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:07:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:07:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:07:02 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <70ChsB.A.SqH.s126FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73405 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 Status: O X-Status: The Johnson noise produced in resistors is A.C. which will have an average voltage of zero. A group of resistors will have act like one equivalent resistor. Diodes in consistent alignment parallel will conduct more Johnson noise current and less voltage when the internal electrons move from the cathode to the anode. A rectified residue of Johnson noise power will be aggregated on the buss sheets that merges the outputs of all the consistently aligned diodes, The anodes connected to one buss and the cathodes connected to a second buss. Aggregated D.C. power can be tapped from the busses while an equivalent amount of ambient thermal energy is absorbed. Last I heard, Paul agrees with this design. IIRC Jones Beene rejects it without comment, and I agree with Paul's further deductions that a resistor / LED array would convert ambient heat into light and Paul's other approach that a ambient IR photocell would convert ambient heat into D.C. electrical power where an extensive cathode would be the negative terminal. I believe that the diode array is the most practical method. I do not believe that lenses or mirrors will concentrate ambient IR. I applied for Branson's prize without spelling out that the way to use apply diode arrays to CO2 reduction would be to use diode arrays as air conditioners in tropical climates and use the resultant electrical power to decompose CO2; I mentioned that air conditioners would yield electrical power but I neglected to immediately tie this attribute to CO2 decomposition. I mailed my narritive in early Feb and have not received an aknowlegement or reply. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 17:52:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l251qh3d006330; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:52:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l251qf45006317; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:52:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:52:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WJnVM7ac5puonUPJaG2ZGDI2uY0iJvTPRm41w5Fnk1K8/7WBaRpkJtE39q/zRug6; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "StifflerScientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 19:52:42 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <093501c75eaf$34d91c40$3800a8c0@zothan> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609a13433406c2b65a55d0ca1fa0dd3369a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73406 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For some simple examples of man on the street units, take a loog at the following. http://tristate.apogee.net/et/evthcop.asp http://www.heatpumpcentre.org/About_heat_pumps/HP_performance.asp http://tva.apogee.net/res/rehcop.asp -----Original Message----- From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 4:48 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) When you begin to use the heat from the hot reservoir (launch the Sterling) it would tend to cool down from the thermal watts you draw from it, but since simultaneously you pour more thermal watts into it than you draw from it it heats up instead, with the extra heat coming from ambient air. Jones may be right 40% may be overestimated for the Sterling's efficiency, let's use his figure 15% instead, but Ron may also be right that I grossly underestimated the heat pump COP. If indeed heat pumps can easily run at COP=9, the overall COP would be: 0.15*9=1.35 which would be even more overunity. Sterling draws 1000W heat from hot reservoir (not necessarily water BTW) and outputs 150W mechanical. Heat pump draws 150W*9=1350W from ambient air and outputs them to the hot tank. Net power into the hot tank: 350W Anything wrong with this Jones? ;-) (someone "read" by Jones please answer this post so he gets it, thanks) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > What happens when you begin to use the hot water? > > Harry > > Stiffler Scientific wrote: ... >> Enough of that, I hope some one will comment on your idea as I have seen >> Heat Pumps easily fun at COP=9 and if I remember my reading can go to COP=12 >> (theory). If that is the case then maybe you have just not accounted for all >> of the loss that will take place. Indeed for Texas (most of it) a m2 of >> blackened copper collector can get you some real hot water. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] >> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:15 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >> >> >> OK, if the MIBs didn't intercept my posts which they probably didn't (no one >> has knocked at my door yet), it must be that my scheme was simply not clear >> enough to provoke feedback. I'll try and make it clearer through a practical >> embodiment: >> >> Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater >> (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the >> cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% >> conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot >> and cold sources (2LoT not broken), and through an appropriate >> quasi-lossless gearbox replaces the electric motor powering the compressor >> of an average performance house heating type heat pump (COP=3 >> conservatively), which therefore pumps 400W*3=1200W of heat from the ambient >> air to the hot water reservoir. >> >> 1000W out, 1200W in, surely there can be no doubt that after the initial >> joule heater kick this apparatus will run standalone, drawing its energy >> from the ambient air (cooling it so ventilation will be needed, by say a 10W >> fan), and providing nearly 200W continuous excess heat to the hot water >> reservoir? >> >> Does it make more sense now? ;-) >> -- >> Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 18:28:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l252Smmo028026; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:28:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l252SkTZ028013; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:28:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:28:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:29:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) In-reply-to: <093501c75eaf$34d91c40$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73407 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I mean besides keeping the same water warm. e.g. what happens when you begin to use the hot water for washing? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > When you begin to use the heat from the hot reservoir (launch the Sterling) it > would tend to cool down from the thermal watts you draw from it, but since > simultaneously you pour more thermal watts into it than you draw from it it > heats up instead, with the extra heat coming from ambient air. > > Jones may be right 40% may be overestimated for the Sterling's efficiency, > let's use his figure 15% instead, but Ron may also be right that I grossly > underestimated the heat pump COP. If indeed heat pumps can easily run at > COP=9, the overall COP would be: > > 0.15*9=1.35 which would be even more overunity. > > Sterling draws 1000W heat from hot reservoir (not necessarily water BTW) and > outputs 150W mechanical. > Heat pump draws 150W*9=1350W from ambient air and outputs them to the hot > tank. > Net power into the hot tank: 350W > > Anything wrong with this Jones? ;-) (someone "read" by Jones please answer > this post so he gets it, thanks) > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > > >> What happens when you begin to use the hot water? >> >> Harry >> >> Stiffler Scientific wrote: > ... >>> Enough of that, I hope some one will comment on your idea as I have seen >>> Heat Pumps easily fun at COP=9 and if I remember my reading can go to COP=12 >>> (theory). If that is the case then maybe you have just not accounted for all >>> of the loss that will take place. Indeed for Texas (most of it) a m2 of >>> blackened copper collector can get you some real hot water. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:15 PM >>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >>> >>> >>> OK, if the MIBs didn't intercept my posts which they probably didn't (no one >>> has knocked at my door yet), it must be that my scheme was simply not clear >>> enough to provoke feedback. I'll try and make it clearer through a practical >>> embodiment: >>> >>> Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater >>> (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the >>> cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% >>> conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot >>> and cold sources (2LoT not broken), and through an appropriate >>> quasi-lossless gearbox replaces the electric motor powering the compressor >>> of an average performance house heating type heat pump (COP=3 >>> conservatively), which therefore pumps 400W*3=1200W of heat from the ambient >>> air to the hot water reservoir. >>> >>> 1000W out, 1200W in, surely there can be no doubt that after the initial >>> joule heater kick this apparatus will run standalone, drawing its energy >>> from the ambient air (cooling it so ventilation will be needed, by say a 10W >>> fan), and providing nearly 200W continuous excess heat to the hot water >>> reservoir? >>> >>> Does it make more sense now? ;-) >>> -- >>> Michel >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 20:16:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l254GBfQ025384; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 20:16:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l254GA9J025375; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 20:16:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 20:16:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EB9986.7040600@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 23:16:06 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000601c75d11$59cd6a50$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45E89CF0.2020300@pobox.com> <45E8DE0D.9010507@pobox.com> <45E99DC3.9000504@pobox.com> <45EA5AC2.70006@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73408 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > > On 3/4/07, *Stephen A. Lawrence* > wrote: > > > > OK so far? (Note that we didn't need gamma for anything here -- I > just used the metric to find the proper distances.) > > > I think we can stick to thought experiments and dump equations. If you think you can understand the gedanken experiments without using equations, you are deluding yourself. If you think you can understand relativity without understanding and applying the mathematics on which it's based, you're deluding yourself. Throughout, you ignore the math and just assert things are "bunk" to prove them wrong. It's pointless to attempt to explain anything to you as long as you refuse to address the mathematics, and just use "intuition" and guesswork to "prove" things. You said, regarding relativity: > I spent years learning it I find that very hard to believe, since you don't appear to have understood even the extremely basic concept of relativity of simultaneity, but instead just assert it is "bunk". If you care to address the math -- and try actually _working_ _out_ some of the answers to the questions you raise, rather than just asserting that they can't be answered in SR because it's illogical -- we can continue the conversation. Otherwise it's pointless. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 21:17:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l255H8jD024598; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:17:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l255H6GG024570; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:17:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:17:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EBA7CB.50302@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 00:16:59 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <002501c75e73$71ed1000$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <002501c75e73$71ed1000$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73409 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Stephen, > >> I have some issues with some of the things you say about relativity >> here. > >> Einstein published more than one paper in 1905. The one which is >> generally considered to be the "seminal" paper on SR was "On The >> Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" and it covers a great deal more >> than the mass/energy equivalence -- in fact, it's a complete >> derivation of special relativity, couched in terms of Euclidean >> space with the Lorentz transforms written algebraically. > > There, you said it yourself, they are "Lorentz" transformations, not > "Einstein" transformations. Of course. The first thing named after Einstein in the whole rigmarole of relativity, AFAIK, is the Einstein tensor. (There's also Einstein's summation notation, which is very useful, but it's more akin to a gadget than an insight.) He built on a structure which was almost complete already; many mathematicians and physicists actually contributed to the formation of relativity. I'm no historian of science, but what Einstein appears to have contributed to SR is the insight to realize that the math could be made to stand on its own, without a hypothetical "ether". Furthermore, as far as I know, the final formulation of Lorentz's ether theory, which produces the same mechanics as Einstein's relativity, was not made until after 1905. But I may be wrong about that. In any case, as far as I know, the first complete presentation of SR in print, anywhere, was Einstein's 1905 electrodynamics paper. Lorentz had derived the transformations -- or at least _one_ of the two; I'm not sure he had the time transformation as well as the space transformation -- but if he had published a coherent theory integrating them I'm not aware of it. If you're aware of a paper by him which covers this, and which predates 1905, I'd be interested in it. Einstein's contribution to GR appears to have been the realization that Riemannian geometry could be applied to the problem of gravity, along with a general notion of how to proceed. As I'm sure you're aware Einstein wasn't the first to derive the Einstein field equations. If I recall the story right, after hearing a lecture by Einstein, Hilbert was inspired to work on the problem and actually cracked it slightly before Einstein. But AFAIK Hilbert never objected to Einstein getting the credit, as it was his intuition which led to the path Hilbert followed. > Lorentz developed a set of equations to explain Aether drift in a > fluid Aether according to the non-null Michelson-Morley data. > Albert Einstein plagiarized Lorentz's work by writing a paper > utilizing the transformation equations and not giving proper credit. Oh, he didn't give him credit - I see. That's why he calls the transformations "Lorentz transformations", to hide the source. Get real. Einstein knew Lorentz wrote them first and never denied it. Einstein's derivation was original, but he never claimed the transformations themselves as his own. See: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ Footnote 5: "The equations of the Lorentz transformation..." Gosh, he admitted right there, in print, that they were Lorentz's... > Nevertheless, if you want to claim the Lorentz transformations part > of Special Relativity theory, then that is a demon you have to deal > with personally. I'm not going to go there as I do not question the > validity of Lorentz's work, nor do I attribute Lorentz's work to > Einstein. Do you refuse to use calculus because parts of it were attributed to Newton when Leibnitz should have gotten the credit? Do you even care? If not, why not? Why does it make such a difference to you who got the credit for relativity? > The only original contribution of Albert Einstein to Special >Relativity theory is his equivalence of mass and energy, hence the >celebrated "equation," E=mc^2. > > In order to equate energy with mass, the rules of algebra had to be > modified specially for Albert Einstein. Care to explain that? There are no algebraic problems in special relativity, AFAIK. > I suppose this is why it is called "Special" > Relativity theory. Do you really not know why it's "special" relativity? > Einstein's equation is not an equation at all, it is a formula. > Thus E and m are just empty variables, which could just as easily be > x and y. > > There are two completely unrelated processes of logic used to > befuddle physics students into believing OK I guess I see really clearly where you're coming from. > E=mc^2 is an equation. First, it is pointed out that dimensionally > E=mv^2 is a true equation, which it is for any one system of units. > Then an unrelated bit of logic is applied saying that the maximum > velocity of any object is the speed of light. So v in the > dimensional equation is arbitrarily assigned the value of c, which > breaks the rules of equality governing the dimensional equation (one > side of the equation cannot be changed, without changing the other). > But nobody seems to care about this sloppiness. > > To further muddy the waters, E is shown equal to m if c is > arbitrarily assigned the value of 1. Once again, only one side of > the equation is being changed, which violates the equality of the > equation. The fact is, for any equation all variables must be in > the same units. You cannot arbitrarily decide to multiply feet > times kilograms without converting one of the units to the other > system. Also, if E is equal to mc^2, then the following logic is > true: > > E=mc^2 > mc^2=mc^2 > for c=1; m=m OK, so if E=mc^2 and our units are such that c=1, then m=m. Is that a contradiction? Do you want to say m is _not_ equal to itself? It's not a derivation of e=mc^2, obviously -- but so what? > There is no equivalence of mass and energy, except if you make > special provisions for breaking the rules of algebra. So I gather you feel e=mc^2 is false. I have the impression that would come as a surprise to a lot of particle physicists. > Since E=mc^2 is not a true equality, then every equation and theory > based upon using E=mc^2 as an equality is falsified. Einstein's > house of cards falls because the foundation was false. > > It may turn out that useful numbers were squeezed out of Einstein's > work, but it was just a fancy card trick. Its usefulness is limited > to a very few special situations, which explains why SR and QM > cannot predict the same outcomes. Actually modern QM is based rather heavily on SR, or so I've been led to believe in conversations with quantum physicists. GR is out in the cold, of course -- never been matched up with QM. > Further, with regard to SR, if we use the equation as it is given, > then the energy of a photon should be zero, because it has zero mass > (unless you try to fix the problem by inventing a new kind of > "thought mass"). The photon has no _rest_ mass. It carries energy and can be said -- and is said, by some physicists -- to carry mass as well. The "m" in mc^2 is the rest mass only when the body is at rest, and in that case the "E" is the rest energy. If the body is moving the equation is actually E = gamma*m0*c^2 where I've used "m0" for rest mass. The equation reads "E=mc^2" only if you use "m" to mean "relativistic mass" (which is frowned on by most modern physicists). Kinetic energy is then E_k = (m - m0)c^2 AFAIK Einstein used "m" to mean "relativistic mass" but I'd have to check the papers to be sure. > Another big problem with the equivalence of mass and energy is that > one is said to convert to the other in the case of nuclear mass > deficit. The missing mass is said to have been converted to energy. > But the equation shows that as mass decreases, the energy should > also decrease. It is impossible that the same equation that equates > mass and energy could predict that mass could be converted into > energy, or that energy could be converted into mass. You can't have > it both ways. You don't seem to be making sense here. After a nuclear event which gives off energy, the sum of the rest masses of the remaining nuclei is smaller, the mass-equivalent went off as gamma rays or appeared as kinetic energy. Where's the alleged disconnect? The mass of an iron nucleus is less than the sum of the masses of the nucleons, if we use hydrogen and helium for our "standard" to figure out what nucleons weigh. Fusion releases energy, and the "ash" which is left behind has less mass. Makes sense to me. When you convert a lot of hydrogen to iron all at once, there's a whalloping big bang. > Now I have just presented you with rock solid fatal flaws in > Einstein's mass/energy equivalence theory. There was no equation to > begin with, and even when the so-called E=mc^2 equation is used to > explain mass deficit, it predicts the opposite of what we are told. Not as far as I can see -- you asserted it does, but your assertion is senseless, as far as I can see. > No amount of logic in the later applications of Special Relativity > can fix the fact that the foundation is non-existent. > > Now either you will completely ignore what I have said and start > spewing all kinds of "evidence" in favor of SR, or you will do > something that few others do and admit that I'm right. I suspect > you will do the former. I'll actually say I don't understand what you're claiming with regard to e=mc^2 being unable to predict an energy release when a nuclear reaction takes place which leaves the aggregate remaining nuclei "lighter" than the starting nuclei. At least I think that was your point. Perhaps you should exhibit some arithmetic to explain your point more clearly. > And if you choose to believe in SR, then the discussion has degraded > from one of science to one of religion and I will not violate your > right to freedom of religion. That's how the cranks always end it -- SR is your religion, you must be just taking it all on faith because nobody could understand it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 4 23:38:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l257cfwr015350; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:38:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l257cd4J015338; Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:38:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 23:38:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <097601c75ef5$f5f91a10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:14:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l257cbNC015314 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73410 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: Maybe they haven't raised enough millions from investors yet? :) http://steorntracker.blogspot.com/2007/03/busy-day-in-forums.html Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:31 AM Subject: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration >. . . moved to July: > > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1 > > and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!? > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 01:38:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l259cNhB019201; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 01:38:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l259cLRU019188; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 01:38:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 01:38:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09b901c75f0a$4af54c50$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:39:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l259cID2019133 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73411 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: We are not talking about a practical device yet ;-) but I imagine you wouldn't draw the working fluid (not necessarily water) directly from the hot reservoir, you would use a heat exchanger rather, and you would be allowed to draw a thermal power equal to the difference between what the heat pump gives and what the Sterling takes (350W "only" in the example below, but of course it could be scaled up if it works). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >I mean besides keeping the same water warm. > e.g. what happens when you begin to use the hot water > for washing? > > Harry > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> When you begin to use the heat from the hot reservoir (launch the Sterling) it >> would tend to cool down from the thermal watts you draw from it, but since >> simultaneously you pour more thermal watts into it than you draw from it it >> heats up instead, with the extra heat coming from ambient air. >> >> Jones may be right 40% may be overestimated for the Sterling's efficiency, >> let's use his figure 15% instead, but Ron may also be right that I grossly >> underestimated the heat pump COP. If indeed heat pumps can easily run at >> COP=9, the overall COP would be: >> >> 0.15*9=1.35 which would be even more overunity. >> >> Sterling draws 1000W heat from hot reservoir (not necessarily water BTW) and >> outputs 150W mechanical. >> Heat pump draws 150W*9=1350W from ambient air and outputs them to the hot >> tank. >> Net power into the hot tank: 350W >> >> Anything wrong with this Jones? ;-) (someone "read" by Jones please answer >> this post so he gets it, thanks) >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >> >> >>> What happens when you begin to use the hot water? >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> Stiffler Scientific wrote: >> ... >>>> Enough of that, I hope some one will comment on your idea as I have seen >>>> Heat Pumps easily fun at COP=9 and if I remember my reading can go to COP=12 >>>> (theory). If that is the case then maybe you have just not accounted for all >>>> of the loss that will take place. Indeed for Texas (most of it) a m2 of >>>> blackened copper collector can get you some real hot water. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 8:15 PM >>>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >>>> >>>> >>>> OK, if the MIBs didn't intercept my posts which they probably didn't (no one >>>> has knocked at my door yet), it must be that my scheme was simply not clear >>>> enough to provoke feedback. I'll try and make it clearer through a practical >>>> embodiment: >>>> >>>> Say we have an insulated hot water reservoir, pre-heated by a joule heater >>>> (used only to start the process), as the hot source, and ambient air as the >>>> cold source. An average efficiency Sterling engine (efficiency=40% >>>> conservatively, say 1000W heat in, 400W mechanical out) runs on those hot >>>> and cold sources (2LoT not broken), and through an appropriate >>>> quasi-lossless gearbox replaces the electric motor powering the compressor >>>> of an average performance house heating type heat pump (COP=3 >>>> conservatively), which therefore pumps 400W*3=1200W of heat from the ambient >>>> air to the hot water reservoir. >>>> >>>> 1000W out, 1200W in, surely there can be no doubt that after the initial >>>> joule heater kick this apparatus will run standalone, drawing its energy >>>> from the ambient air (cooling it so ventilation will be needed, by say a 10W >>>> fan), and providing nearly 200W continuous excess heat to the hot water >>>> reservoir? >>>> >>>> Does it make more sense now? ;-) >>>> -- >>>> Michel >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 01:46:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l259jtIV022272; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 01:45:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l259jsV2022261; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 01:45:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 01:45:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09bd01c75f0b$59142580$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:47:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l259jpWF022232 Resent-Message-ID: <83jDyD.A.obF.Rb-6FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73412 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Diode array 070304 Status: O X-Status: "Charlie, Charlie, Charlie Brown" (sorry couldn't resist), why don't you just try this scheme with a single resistor and diode in a good Faraday cage rather than spamming us with it regularly? Such a prototype wouldn't cost much compared to my Sterling engine + heat pump scheme ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles M. Brown" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 AM Subject: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 > The Johnson noise produced in resistors is A.C. which > will have an average voltage of zero. A group of resistors > will have act like one equivalent resistor. Diodes in > consistent alignment parallel will conduct more Johnson > noise current and less voltage when the internal electrons > move from the cathode to the anode. A rectified residue of > Johnson noise power will be aggregated on the buss sheets > that merges the outputs of all the consistently aligned > diodes, The anodes connected to one buss and the cathodes > connected to a second buss. Aggregated D.C. power can be > tapped from the busses while an equivalent amount of > ambient thermal energy is absorbed. Last I heard, Paul > agrees with this design. IIRC Jones Beene rejects it > without comment, and I agree with Paul's further > deductions that a resistor / LED array would convert > ambient heat into light and Paul's other approach that a > ambient IR photocell would convert ambient heat into D.C. > electrical power where an extensive cathode would be the > negative terminal. I believe that the diode array is the > most practical method. I do not believe that lenses or > mirrors will concentrate ambient IR. > > I applied for Branson's prize without spelling out that > the way to use apply diode arrays to CO2 reduction would > be to use diode arrays as air conditioners in tropical > climates and use the resultant electrical power to > decompose CO2; I mentioned that air conditioners would > yield electrical power but I neglected to immediately tie > this attribute to CO2 decomposition. I mailed my > narritive in early Feb and have not received an > aknowlegement or reply. > > Aloha, > > Charlie > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 05:47:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25Dl8bb028945; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 05:47:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25Dl6AX028926; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 05:47:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 05:47:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:46:39 -0600 Message-ID: <004201c75f2c$bb89f9d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <45EBA7CB.50302@pobox.com> Thread-Index: Acde5fx+zq+wndlJSI67IBfOVlW1iAAPbVKA Resent-Message-ID: <-gwseC.A.5DH.a9B7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73413 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, > I'm no historian of science, but what Einstein appears to have contributed to SR is the insight to realize that the math could be made to stand on its own, without a hypothetical "ether". It is true that Einstein made the claim when he was younger that SR did not need an "ether," but changed his mind after 1919. Later in life he realized that there had to be some kind of Aether in order for GR to work. Also, Einstein did not consider Aether to be "hypothetical," as evidenced by his earlier writing. http://www.worldscibooks.com/phy_etextbook/4454/4454_chap1.pdf > See: > http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ > Footnote 5: "The equations of the Lorentz transformation..." Gosh, he admitted right there, in print, that they were Lorentz's... My apologies for not getting my information from the source. I accepted an obviously incorrect position made by someone else in a previous discussion. > > E=mc^2 > > mc^2=mc^2 > > for c=1; m=m > OK, so if E=mc^2 and our units are such that c=1, then m=m. Is that a contradiction? Do you want to say m is _not_ equal to itself? My presentation of the equation is not a contradiction. The standard presentation is: E=mc^2 for c=1; E=m The standard presentation for the equivalence of energy and mass is where the contradiction lies, not my view. If you are going to change one side of an equation, you have to change the other side, too, in order to maintain the equality. Do you disagree? > > There is no equivalence of mass and energy, except if you make > > special provisions for breaking the rules of algebra. > So I gather you feel e=mc^2 is false. > I have the impression that would come as a surprise to a lot of particle physicists. I have argued this point with many physicists, and yes, it is a point of contention with them. In order to pass their classes involving SR, they had to accept that one side of the equation could be altered, while not altering the other side. For them, there is no questioning the "fact" that energy is equivalent to mass, even when it is pointed out the basic math is wrong. > Actually modern QM is based rather heavily on SR, or so I've been led to believe in conversations with quantum physicists. And your point is what? That just because people use SR that it has to be correct? What about the rules of math, do they count for anything? >> Further, with regard to SR, if we use the equation as it is given, > then the energy of a photon should be zero, because it has zero mass > (unless you try to fix the problem by inventing a new kind of > "thought mass"). >The photon has no _rest_ mass. It carries energy and can be said -- and is said, by some physicists -- to carry mass as well. Nonsense!!! Absolute nonsense!!! The mass=energy equation is false, yet you use the equation as proof that itself must be correct. Moreover, there is no such empirically observed thing as "rest mass." This is more nonsense designed to befuddle the masses. Try doing physics based upon real science instead of science fiction. There is no such thing as "rest mass" that is different from any other kind of mass. There is only one kind of mass and it is the dimension of inertia. > The "m" in mc^2 is the rest mass only when the body is at rest, and in that case the "E" is the rest energy. If the body is moving the equation is actually You are seriously deluded. You are believing in fantasies. Your belief has left the realm of science and is a religious belief. There is no such thing as "rest mass" or "rest energy" except in your mind. The rest of SR falls like a house of cards. But that does not mean there isn't another mathematically correct view that can replace relativity and make QM work. The Aether Physics Model shows that: A.u * e.emax^2 / w.C = m.e * c^2 The Aether constant (16pi^2 * Coulomb's constant) times electron strong charge divided by the Compton wavelength is equal to the mass of the electron times the speed of light squared. Instead of using mass times velocity squared in QM equations, physicists could be using the Aether times the strong charge of matter divided by the distance between the strong charges. It is just a coincidence that energy can be described in terms of the dimension of mass as speed of light, but it is a matter of physics that charge relative to Aether is the real motivating factor for all energy. When this second type of charge is recognized as being distinctly different from electrostatic charge, and all units are properly expressed in terms of distributed charge instead of single dimension charge, then all the forces are easily unified. All of quantum structure is easily quantified. All the nonsense about probability functions, wave/particle duality and force particles dissolves into the fictional vapor that it always was. >> Another big problem with the equivalence of mass and energy is that > one is said to convert to the other in the case of nuclear mass > deficit. The missing mass is said to have been converted to energy. > But the equation shows that as mass decreases, the energy should > also decrease. It is impossible that the same equation that equates > mass and energy could predict that mass could be converted into > energy, or that energy could be converted into mass. You can't have > it both ways. > You don't seem to be making sense here. Me? It's modern physics that is trying to have it both ways. This is more of your religious persecution technique at work. Instead of using logic, you accuse the other person of not making sense. It worked during the Inquisition, too. Stick to the math and the logic will follow. Explain in your own words the equations that show how energy is equivalent to mass and allows for the existence of rest mass as opposed to relativistic mass (or any other kind of mass). You can't just go making up different kinds of mass like magic. [POOF - there is rest mass] [POOF - Aether is gone] It doesn't work that way. You need to use real physics if you are going to discuss physics. > After a nuclear event which > gives off energy, the sum of the rest masses of the remaining nuclei > is smaller, the mass-equivalent went off as gamma rays or appeared as > kinetic energy. Where's the alleged disconnect? Gamma rays are not energy, they are photons. Electrons are not energy, they are electrons. Helium nuclei are not energy, they are helium nuclei. Where is the energy that mass was converted to? Are you saying that mass was converted to velocity squared? Velocity squared is on the same side of the equation as mass! Energy is the thing mass is being converted to, where is the energy? > The mass of an iron nucleus is less than the sum of the masses of the nucleons, if we use hydrogen and helium for our "standard" to figure out what nucleons weigh. Fusion releases energy, and the "ash" which is left behind has less mass. Makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to science, however. If the sum of the individual protons and neutrons mass is greater than the combined mass, then that means the nucleus has less mass than the sum of the individual parts, right? E=mc^2 If the mass decreases, the energy decreases, right? Where is the "sense" you refer to? It looks like nonsense to me. One would have to believe the exact opposite effect occurs when nuclei are unbound than when they are bound. If they gave up energy when being bound, then they must absorb energy when being split, otherwise the protons and neutrons would be short of mass. If E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted to energy during nuclear binding, nuclear fission reactions should create a vast cold implosion, not a vast hot explosion. > When you convert a lot of hydrogen to iron all at once, there's a whalloping big bang. Just because that is empirically true does not mean the silly "equation" of E=mc^2 predicts it. The equation has to obey the rules of math and also be consistent with fact before you can link empirical observation with the theoretical math. >> Now I have just presented you with rock solid fatal flaws in > Einstein's mass/energy equivalence theory. There was no equation to > begin with, and even when the so-called E=mc^2 equation is used to > explain mass deficit, it predicts the opposite of what we are told. >Not as far as I can see -- you asserted it does, but your assertion is senseless, as far as I can see. End of discussion. You are irrational and brainwashed. There can be no meaningful discussion with you on SR until you learn to apply logic and the basic rules of math to it. >> And if you choose to believe in SR, then the discussion has degraded > from one of science to one of religion and I will not violate your > right to freedom of religion. > That's how the cranks always end it -- SR is your religion, you must be just taking it all on faith because nobody could understand it. That's how cult followers make their point if the opposition doesn't agree, call them a derogatory name and curse them. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 06:59:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25ExbwL004647; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 06:59:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25ExZgO004632; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 06:59:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 06:59:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Diode array 070304 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:58:44 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <09bd01c75f0b$59142580$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73414 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A single diode would produce the least power for the least overcome load. It is the hardest to measure and least productive. It can be done but is overly academic. Candidate abrasives for sandpaper can be tested by trying one grain but practical surface smoothing isn't done that way. I am looking for people that sincerely want to escape the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:47:50 +0100 "Michel Jullian" wrote: >"Charlie, Charlie, Charlie Brown" (sorry couldn't >resist), why don't you just try this scheme with a single >resistor and diode in a good Faraday cage rather than >spamming us with it regularly? > >Such a prototype wouldn't cost much compared to my >Sterling engine + heat pump scheme ;-) > >Michel > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Charles M. Brown" >To: >Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 AM >Subject: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 > > >> The Johnson noise produced in resistors is A.C. which >> will have an average voltage of zero. A group of >>resistors >> will have act like one equivalent resistor. Diodes in >> consistent alignment parallel will conduct more Johnson >> noise current and less voltage when the internal >>electrons >> move from the cathode to the anode. A rectified residue >>of >> Johnson noise power will be aggregated on the buss >>sheets >> that merges the outputs of all the consistently aligned >> diodes, The anodes connected to one buss and the >>cathodes >> connected to a second buss. Aggregated D.C. power can be >> tapped from the busses while an equivalent amount of >> ambient thermal energy is absorbed. Last I heard, Paul >> agrees with this design. IIRC Jones Beene rejects it >> without comment, and I agree with Paul's further >> deductions that a resistor / LED array would convert >> ambient heat into light and Paul's other approach that a >> ambient IR photocell would convert ambient heat into >>D.C. >> electrical power where an extensive cathode would be the >> negative terminal. I believe that the diode array is the >> most practical method. I do not believe that lenses or >> mirrors will concentrate ambient IR. >> >> I applied for Branson's prize without spelling out that >> the way to use apply diode arrays to CO2 reduction >>would >> be to use diode arrays as air conditioners in tropical >> climates and use the resultant electrical power to >> decompose CO2; I mentioned that air conditioners would >> yield electrical power but I neglected to immediately >>tie >> this attribute to CO2 decomposition. I mailed my >> narritive in early Feb and have not received an >> aknowlegement or reply. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Charlie >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 07:02:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25F25Il021707; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:02:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25F23WK021688; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:02:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:02:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NML/scR+nMoiCXaeWQtzs2ec7RzWQKDJQ+C25MjvHPga6bWV63N+Ebe798OwNo9Cr1G/98+vsSHO22PSV+WueDDNFkoqlXM1XeXvHLInHTAb+EPNQoW7BgPbvv+YtIki9STZaSPzV8dthvJ/OG1XFzF/50VfLn8e2gMBzlIMOwk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZU64SLI2+kDPWqUgf1AyeFXqtNhp9pW6HBskWTy5DhKpqL5VRkBY0SxhVW5PgHREtDsEQYxX7d57Vk6gN+lilz9oaekNoouuWt365iTaAd8ZbNYvIWo7Nivmk+89c8LGqG9mGH06ybI/ahqEvz59lEkuuERuij3cG3wOUyyK5jU= Message-ID: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:01:45 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73415 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles M. Brown wrote: > The Johnson noise produced in resistors is A.C. which will have an > average voltage of zero. A group of resistors will have act like one > equivalent resistor. Diodes in consistent alignment parallel will > conduct more Johnson noise current and less voltage when the internal > electrons move from the cathode to the anode. A rectified residue of > Johnson noise power will be aggregated on the buss sheets that merges > the outputs of all the consistently aligned diodes, The anodes connected > to one buss and the cathodes connected to a second buss. Aggregated D.C. > power can be tapped from the busses while an equivalent amount of > ambient thermal energy is absorbed. Last I heard, Paul agrees with this > design. IIRC Jones Beene rejects it without comment, and I agree with > Paul's further deductions that a resistor / LED array would convert > ambient heat into light and Paul's other approach that a ambient IR > photocell would convert ambient heat into D.C. electrical power where an > extensive cathode would be the negative terminal. I believe that the > diode array is the most practical method. > > I applied for Branson's prize without spelling out that the way to use > apply diode arrays to CO2 reduction would be to use diode arrays as air > conditioners in tropical climates and use the resultant electrical power > to decompose CO2; I mentioned that air conditioners would yield > electrical power but I neglected to immediately tie this attribute to > CO2 decomposition. I mailed my narritive in early Feb and have not > received an aknowlegement or reply. > > Aloha, > > Charlie Hello Charlie, I hope you do not listen to Michel, as you have every right to keep us updated *and* to inform new Vo members. IMHO the agenda of two people at Vo are becoming clear. Anyhow, you are correct that thermal noise averages to zero, but people need to understand the reason for my capacitor and resistor example. It is a simple fact that at any given moment the capacitor will be charged to a certain value. Obviously this value changes over time in a random fashion varying from positive to negative. The point is the C & R experiment is the simplest example for any person with basic knowledge in electronics to understand ambient temperature energy is capturable. In short, the C & R experiment is very simple. Is thermal noise viewable on oscilloscope? LOL, absolutely YES-- very simple stuff. Does all measuring devices from amps to multimeters to oscilloscopes have input capacitance? Absolutely yes! The C & R experiment clearly demonstrates that a capacitor captures ambient temperature energy. You said, "I do not believe that lenses or mirrors will concentrate ambient IR." Room temperature black body radiation is peak at roughly 20 THz. There is nothing new about THz lenses --> http://www.mtinstruments.com/thzlenses/index.htm Furthermore, polished metals reflect such T-rays. One could build a reflective lens. Experiments and simulations both confirm that a parabolic lens does indeed focus more room temperature black body radiation into a smaller area, thereby increasing the temperature of that focused area above room temperature. You said, "IIRC Jones Beene" I would be more than happy to debate IIRC Jones Beene. Keep up the great work Charlie. I think you should start working on this project though. To most it sounds ludicrous to attempt this on your own, but anything's possible Charlie! For example, last year I wanted to build a THz yagi antenna. For $40 I bought a 1200X microscope on sale. It's an easy takes, but very tedious. Charlie, are you presently doing anything to make this become a reality? I know you understand how vitally important this is. IMHO what you are trying accomplish via Internet or Email is next to impossible. There is still *nothing* like an in person discussion. For about a year I've tried to find someone to help out in my research. People are not moved through cyberspace, yet. Trust me, there is nothing like a one on one in person meeting. People are moved in person. You have a difficult task, but a possible task. Don't take this the wrong way, but I know with near 100% confidence that a highly motivative person could get your research on the way within four months, top! In the mean time, you could be thinking of ways to do this on your own by means of being very clever. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 07:17:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25FHW2F028803; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:17:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25FHV48028790; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:17:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Fr+lbJNyE39uQNKE0i+Fyl6pDJ2BJfoLUyz6gm8aqYrtse30wANYhzsrE1JiAfpSt1jVO+kbtBBCqSzenxgIwEjtwzSYfsqIAdRYYY9JYE6kmRytHOXC1AG/alGHvvbIadUdgwB3LXfkneQkt1L9dDZ+sXw0pCRAkWyGdrn/MbY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=b3QgeE1qiupS4MSov2waqVXVUdHvus4HzhP7V30mRujhhpicX+eeAuULFk5Zx/Bo8Su02C+AGd/OFNvjORkfaRfFWR9RqIviPmRRhaWGE0a5F5bZWngAfJMRyWhZPw5vGGT7I+CJG9VUP8W3JQlnQS3PPiwEAfauj23c5LncbeA= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:17:29 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 In-Reply-To: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73416 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Don't take this the > wrong way, but I know with near 100% confidence that a highly motivative person > could get your research on the way within four months, top! In the mean time, > you could be thinking of ways to do this on your own by means of being very clever. Tom, a friend, tried it with negative results: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/array_complete.jpg http://snipurl.com/1c2je Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 07:20:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25FK9aE019317; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:20:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25FK7Ui019287; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:20:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:20:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009d01c75f3a$0b87a790$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Diode array 070304 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:22:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l25FK5et019225 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73417 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles M. Brown" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Diode array 070304 >A single diode would produce the least power for the least > overcome load. It is the hardest to measure and least > productive. It can be done but is overly academic. Never mind, it would be a first step in the right direction, how would you go about measuring it? To Paul: stop the ad hominem. Michel > Candidate abrasives for sandpaper can be tested by trying > one grain but practical surface smoothing isn't done that > way. > > I am looking for people that sincerely want to escape the > Second Law of Thermodynamics. > > Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:47:50 +0100 > "Michel Jullian" wrote: >>"Charlie, Charlie, Charlie Brown" (sorry couldn't >>resist), why don't you just try this scheme with a single >>resistor and diode in a good Faraday cage rather than >>spamming us with it regularly? >> >>Such a prototype wouldn't cost much compared to my >>Sterling engine + heat pump scheme ;-) >> >>Michel >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Charles M. Brown" >>To: >>Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:07 AM >>Subject: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 >> >> >>> The Johnson noise produced in resistors is A.C. which >>> will have an average voltage of zero. A group of >>>resistors >>> will have act like one equivalent resistor. Diodes in >>> consistent alignment parallel will conduct more Johnson >>> noise current and less voltage when the internal >>>electrons >>> move from the cathode to the anode. A rectified residue >>>of >>> Johnson noise power will be aggregated on the buss >>>sheets >>> that merges the outputs of all the consistently aligned >>> diodes, The anodes connected to one buss and the >>>cathodes >>> connected to a second buss. Aggregated D.C. power can be >>> tapped from the busses while an equivalent amount of >>> ambient thermal energy is absorbed. Last I heard, Paul >>> agrees with this design. IIRC Jones Beene rejects it >>> without comment, and I agree with Paul's further >>> deductions that a resistor / LED array would convert >>> ambient heat into light and Paul's other approach that a >>> ambient IR photocell would convert ambient heat into >>>D.C. >>> electrical power where an extensive cathode would be the >>> negative terminal. I believe that the diode array is the >>> most practical method. I do not believe that lenses or >>> mirrors will concentrate ambient IR. >>> >>> I applied for Branson's prize without spelling out that >>> the way to use apply diode arrays to CO2 reduction >>>would >>> be to use diode arrays as air conditioners in tropical >>> climates and use the resultant electrical power to >>> decompose CO2; I mentioned that air conditioners would >>> yield electrical power but I neglected to immediately >>>tie >>> this attribute to CO2 decomposition. I mailed my >>> narritive in early Feb and have not received an >>> aknowlegement or reply. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Charlie >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 07:22:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25FLtLx002133; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:21:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25FLr2j002094; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:21:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:21:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G/XZNRlO9RGLapYckKgNLFcXWABVYnjZQymoHiJIMOHcnXE+Mm3gWDFD0pCZ9iontSzatq5EL9N7Anst3KF2wFD8R02i/scPzZgTfjXNot3DpUO9iLGAq/xLtzMmKanPTRqng6ZgIvTQ73WdZyniL415O+eUyYmkJ2k1+NdGjp4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TcGSLquEeCoLbaw6BZWIwlpUJo02Q0k3vm/Cp8tr2OR8rwH8P2v05cHH0g+xoPHMxrw4+MQFk7dJ4joH3nUN15qvwEmsExmCyOB3iCC8zeGCvvWpP9xcgF6BJfCL7roayFowlKsnMe4qmIOLPDYWUJS30j/0QJMCmchabdWAgYU= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:21:50 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73418 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, not *totally* negative:-) http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/final_report.txt On 3/5/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > > Don't take this the > > wrong way, but I know with near 100% confidence that a highly motivative person > > could get your research on the way within four months, top! In the mean time, > > you could be thinking of ways to do this on your own by means of being very clever. > > Tom, a friend, tried it with negative results: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/array_complete.jpg > > http://snipurl.com/1c2je > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 07:23:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25FNmpu003474; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:23:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25FNlAh003457; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:23:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:23:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WlYxnh67p97IiHYku64aOLRl4yP1Kvoo6RxIBVvdT5b3Myuagw1tHgUuh/G1ZMJTPQuFJch561exTlvbaoC5UbD2nTpwUsDG84r0xpAY7tWwno8s2ZINa7odOODsbm0ORTc5uVWuIoc32A61kc6nPhBjzdhHefqKyMyUgWoBKX4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lHmGpmFNblfJgtTah9R++Bc850Q9GLKP7zTzgij1900VBqs1rU4lX5/gJDqA6PVJewFlMHYRKwkp2a8kdeoQxSI6ojXlqTKEIyWE6KzseruwA2EdXfU+vvbVnKbhOoTJIlPfJ6bH68+UNkpu9kWdmPm1yeDwRtcS2y4iFy45zwc= Message-ID: <45EC35F4.5010902@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:23:32 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hysteria over "Window" Motor References: <818382.8309.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45D7C220.8080209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73419 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: He discharges for several seconds, but there's very little energy left in the caps. At 0.1 volts a 45000 uF cap holds 225 uJ's! Personally I would discharge for at least 20 seconds, but realistically 225 uJ's in not going to spin that motor. What's more interesting in the video is that Mike's motor continues to increase in rpm. It's clear. The voltage continues to increase. Mike is either a fraud or had the "smoking gun." Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 07:31:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25FVWNs026183; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:31:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25FVUQv026166; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:31:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:31:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=b4mE1JlMr6gfA8BEW/rbLKqHRsUJtANDEjHEIkkxEgoXeCkAKjasdHZ62M7v+74qv8KXoGi6kwv0GUZOUrk3n8EziqCvmuMUDfO8V98jAizWtOPCbnKRLaGORuL3w9ZFYimLLmu15qH7A7ZDOk1H0sS/pM4dDrKKFyUFa4hi8sQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: 2VwnMCwVM1mUwZvr0enJ_T2bth_eh7bKxlcSpni.5M26auUPZ.up8iQt6c6Q1TxiITjF9c6R6yeE753gUev7atzroeP26dARDEfsBQS.hb5Ag57qlox_FFymAlC2rKaGkFx7bgvVhHT123U- Message-ID: <45EC37CC.8030301@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:31:24 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex References: <093501c75eaf$34d91c40$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73420 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote, > Sterling draws 1000W heat from hot reservoir (not necessarily water > BTW) and outputs 150W mechanical. Heat pump draws 150W*9=1350W from ambient air and outputs them to the > hot tank. Net power into the hot tank: 350W The figure of COP=9 may have occurred in print, or in a lab somewhere, and may be the ultimate goal to shoot at - but the people who do this for a living (use the Linde process to make LOX etc) ... like, well, Linde - they say that they can achieve a COP of about four in practice, but that is using a water heat sink (river) and that is a different kind of COP, from the "free energy" variety, in that the "sink" itself is not usable as heat. If you try to segment the stages for use in a heat engine (the most efficient Linde process uses six stages, I believe) then the COP goes down further below four. I think that a useful COP using the Linde for both heat and cool convesrion would be 2.5 and that is why I said earlier "if you can give me a Stirling with 40% Carnot efficiency using 100C water, then I can guarantee a self-runner." Of course this shifts the burden of proof for OU to the Stirling engine, because since the Carnot spread is only 100 degrees above ambient, the maximum possible efficiency is nowhere close to 40%. That is why I called it "magic," but in truth you will find people who think that the Stirling can exceed these limitations. I hope that they are correct, but the proof is lacking, so far. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 07:53:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25FrL6K019154; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:53:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25FrKYe019143; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:53:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:53:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uPx6M+FTWdoXC0CLXOOCZ2xWALx0JE3fWbSKLicqqzwiVaeJIy7vQscuDvo+Ilftu5CJjPQfQ0LL+4bGS5KTrNT0XndFLlgOKHcN63u5IfIJWbtEGYe3vpR5vTaRUyvmquKy+pwdQrrBA9v54hPFmQcah9/Lo7p7u6Z0gokf/bc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ltacyx2A5psFcyn7OmvO6T8ToQusAP2WWTmw7/8mjU3JopkwaLzLsl8qdfc0TO1+cZgc/qtGVEPy81nIJPPVGWjMpq28EaV2dcPzak93xZkB46paeeozbk2//waHIfAS6xP07K7IN9TBjfaJ2qjJSfffiLTcuw5L4dCiXJZqtg8= Message-ID: <45EC3CE1.2080104@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:53:05 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73421 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > To Paul: stop the ad hominem. Michel Jullian wrote: > "Charlie, Charlie, Charlie Brown" (sorry couldn't resist), why > don't you just try this scheme with a single resistor and diode > in a good Faraday cage rather than spamming us with it regularly? Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >> Don't take this the >> wrong way, but I know with near 100% confidence that a highly >> motivative person >> could get your research on the way within four months, top! In the >> mean time, >> you could be thinking of ways to do this on your own by means of being >> very clever. > > Tom, a friend, tried it with negative results: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/array_complete.jpg > > > http://snipurl.com/1c2je Hi Terry, Could you please forward the details regarding that photo? We can't tell anything from that photo alone. No offense to anyone, but one just can't solder a bunch of diodes and easily expect a measurable DC voltage caused by noise. Spice simulations are very good at this, and such simulations shows that the choice of diode makes a vast difference and the DC voltage would be extremely small. That's why I have never used such an example as trying to get DC voltage from diodes due to noise. Although it's most likely possible with a clever circuit. Now a LED, which is a diode that emits light, is another story. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 07:57:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25FuviP004416; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:56:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25Fuunt004405; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:56:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:56:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:56:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <0rChqB.A.tEB.I3D7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73422 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom's results can be taken as not significantly positive rather than negative. A square array of 1,024 1N914 discrete diodes failed to produce a significant output to a well crafted instrument amplifier using good low power technique. The discrete diodes have low bandwidth compared to the ~1 THz extent of Johnson noise. Micro and nano scale diodes are needed for the next round of testing which would be more definitive. Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:17:29 -0500 "Terry Blanton" wrote: >On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com >wrote: > >> Don't take this the >> wrong way, but I know with near 100% confidence that a >>highly motivative person >> could get your research on the way within four months, >>top! In the mean time, >> you could be thinking of ways to do this on your own by >>means of being very clever. > >Tom, a friend, tried it with negative results: > >http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/array_complete.jpg > >http://snipurl.com/1c2je > >Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 08:20:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25GKZCw015746; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:20:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25GKYuZ015703; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:20:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:20:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OsCjJZQwxO9NaLHWgj5orxZCqhp6yWMiZ+QaPuLw7VXygA90cByRaZfnecGw2290S0JQdKH9X15xXYsTnsGeF3WGSMRrt7tEBOmhq7vXQ5JzyYT3rP71hsGTCL3M1TF1aLT/iqFs5y0yb83rK3mRvB0gT04mt3Jc0zJ+A7enQG8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i8O2JcnS/ghS/xzjly2QzPtB790EG06HUA+xPq7dWGfKc2Q0WZkfAK5dJRZSdoXUGt9IFcETgSYtPSGTSjxlftC2Jxc+T3KcfLxICm6wk17AszYsvp//svw3K6+VRElm+ZpWWJWsjeZklk5+WG1wFowqURRIUXPzSG9Kkhd7eDo= Message-ID: <45EC4342.3050007@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:20:18 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73423 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles M. Brown wrote: > Tom's results can be taken as not significantly positive rather than > negative. A square array of 1,024 1N914 discrete diodes failed to > produce a significant output to a well crafted instrument amplifier > using good low power technique. The discrete diodes have low bandwidth > compared to the ~1 THz extent of Johnson noise. Micro and nano scale > diodes are needed for the next round of testing which would be more > definitive. > Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:17:29 -0500 > "Terry Blanton" wrote: >> On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Don't take this the >>> wrong way, but I know with near 100% confidence that a highly >>> motivative person >>> could get your research on the way within four months, top! In the >>> mean time, >>> you could be thinking of ways to do this on your own by means of >>> being very clever. >> >> Tom, a friend, tried it with negative results: >> >> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/array_complete.jpg >> >> >> http://snipurl.com/1c2je >> >> Terry I would encourage more people to work on this research, as such research is vitally important. Any highly motivated go-getter individual should be able to get something going within four months time. Please refer to my capacitor and resistor example for hardcore proof that energy is capturable from ambient temperature due to vibrating charges at room temperature. This has nothing to do with temperature gradients. All electrical resistance generates electrical noise. All measuring devices have capacitance. When you view such noise on an oscilloscope at any given moment you are witnessing a certain amount of energy stored in a capacitor, and such energy came from ambient temperature. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 08:31:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25GUmBp028598; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:30:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25GUkNq028566; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:30:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:30:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=sy0/PyXU24tSdy5mBEDtUYdbxSq1rZ9qj+LsGUozmKMESCGLwEKWteaevG80VbYA; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:30:18 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <45EC37CC.8030301@pacbell.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26092acb61adc17a80fc7af40d86ebebaf42350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73424 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones; You are right about the unit being in a lab, yet one must be careful as you say so you don't mix apples and oranges. A number of off the street products do claim COP's greater than the LOX production example, although one does indeed need to look farther than just a statement of COP. For example the Jandy Model AE 2500 claims COP 5.4, while the Ice Breaker Model H100R is rated at 5.6 and its big brother at 6.1, or http://www.sortprice.com/search-CQ-Pool_and_Spa-Heat_Pump which all have claims of COP's that are higher. I do realize in the application being discussed that ( W/Qh = Qh-Qc/Qh ) would apply. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:31 AM To: vortex Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Michel Jullian wrote, > Sterling draws 1000W heat from hot reservoir (not necessarily water > BTW) and outputs 150W mechanical. Heat pump draws 150W*9=1350W from ambient air and outputs them to the > hot tank. Net power into the hot tank: 350W The figure of COP=9 may have occurred in print, or in a lab somewhere, and may be the ultimate goal to shoot at - but the people who do this for a living (use the Linde process to make LOX etc) ... like, well, Linde - they say that they can achieve a COP of about four in practice, but that is using a water heat sink (river) and that is a different kind of COP, from the "free energy" variety, in that the "sink" itself is not usable as heat. If you try to segment the stages for use in a heat engine (the most efficient Linde process uses six stages, I believe) then the COP goes down further below four. I think that a useful COP using the Linde for both heat and cool convesrion would be 2.5 and that is why I said earlier "if you can give me a Stirling with 40% Carnot efficiency using 100C water, then I can guarantee a self-runner." Of course this shifts the burden of proof for OU to the Stirling engine, because since the Carnot spread is only 100 degrees above ambient, the maximum possible efficiency is nowhere close to 40%. That is why I called it "magic," but in truth you will find people who think that the Stirling can exceed these limitations. I hope that they are correct, but the proof is lacking, so far. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 08:40:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25Ge2UL008821; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:40:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25Ge1VP008792; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:40:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:40:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:39:59 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_3c67d48132b50304222d921dde23c057" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070305164316.17853BFB66@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73425 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=_3c67d48132b50304222d921dde23c057 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Brown sez: > I am looking for people that sincerely want to > escape the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Seems there have been other recent claims just as provocative as Mr. Brown's that have been made here as well. Brown's statement, however, strikes me as one of the most curiously worded proclamations of intent that I've read in quite a while... looking for a few good men (or women.) It would seem that there have been a LOT of proclamations lately on how one's simulated s/w models have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they have discovered "the-way" to beat the 2LoT, that "their" model points the way to salvation, to a panacea of free energy just waiting to save the world. Can it be done? Who knows. Science fiction authors have certainly conquered the 2LoT barrier many times over, so why can't it be done in our provincial little universe as well. Reality is often stranger than fiction. I can only offer the following snippet of insight, the result of a few hard lessons learned at my own expense - literally at my own expense. There was a time in my own recent history when I had come up with a model that seemed to point the way to a panacea of FE. It was a well thought out model too. I did the physics. I checked out the math thoroughly, as best as I could. The software simulations I was running at the time also seemed to confirm time after time that I had been correctly applying the math to my understanding of basic laws of physics. There was only one thing left for me to do - build the contraption. Fortunately for me the endeavor, while costly, wasn't going to be so outrageously expensive that I couldn't at least get a good idea as to whether I was on the right track or not. In the end I think I spent somewhere around two thousand dollars of personal savings in R&D, building my own POC, Proof of Concept prototype. The result of my intense endeavor was - most educational. It didn't work as advertised. Why? Didn't I do the math right? Where did I go wrong? Eventually, with the help of another colleague (who shall remain nameless) I discovered my error. The biggest irony of it all for me was the fact that my math WAS correct - my "theory" worked. Unfortunately, Mother Nature never asked me for my opinion on how she runs the store. The problem was I had misinterpreted a particular law of physics, specifically how magnetic fields interact with each other. It's a rather interesting phenomenon too, an interactive condition that is easy to misinterpret. However, because I had made a simple misinterpretation in my application of physics my "flawless" math took me down a road of roses filled with the best of intentions. Sometimes I try to comfort myself with the fact that it was an honest mistake on my part, one based on the best collection of information I had at my fingertips at the time. But a mistake it still was. These days, when I hear proclamations that their specially assembled software simulations (which, granted, are claimed to be based on how the real universe operates) show how to generate oodles and oodles of free energy, I find myself remembering how my own simulations had also predicted the same claims. The best of luck to you all. May the best men and women win the prize! Don't be surprised however if it turns out to be a valuable educational experience. Hopefully, you will be able to afford the tuition Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWirks.com --=_3c67d48132b50304222d921dde23c057 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charles Brown sez:

> I am looking for people that sincerely want to
> escape the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Seems there have been other recent claims just as provocative as Mr. Brown'= s that have been made here as well.

Brown's statement, however, strikes me as one of the most curiously worded = proclamations of intent that I've read in quite a while... looking for a fe= w good men (or women.)

It would seem that there have been a LOT of proclamations lately on how one= 's simulated s/w models have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they have= discovered "the-way" to beat the 2LoT, that "their" model points the way t= o salvation, to a panacea of free energy just waiting to save the world.
Can it be done? Who knows. Science fiction authors have certainly conquered= the 2LoT barrier many times over, so why can't it be done in our provincia= l little universe as well. Reality is often stranger than fiction.

I can only offer the following snippet of insight, the result of a few hard= lessons learned at my own expense - literally at my own expense.

There was a time in my own recent history when I had come up with a model t= hat seemed to point the way to a panacea of FE. It was a well thought out m= odel too. I did the physics. I checked out the math thoroughly, as best as = I could. The software simulations I was running at the time also seemed to = confirm time after time that I had been correctly applying the math to my u= nderstanding of basic laws of physics.

There was only one thing left for me to do - build the contraption. Fortuna= tely for me the endeavor, while costly, wasn't going to be so outrageously = expensive that I couldn't at least get a good idea as to whether I was on t= he right track or not. In the end I think I spent somewhere around two thou= sand dollars of personal savings in R&D, building my own POC, Proof of Conc= ept prototype.

The result of my intense endeavor was - most educational.

It didn't work as advertised. Why? Didn't I do the math right? Where did I = go wrong?

Eventually, with the help of another colleague (who shall remain nameless) = I discovered my error.

The biggest irony of it all for me was the fact that my math WAS correct - = my "theory" worked. Unfortunately, Mother Nature never asked me for my opin= ion on how she runs the store. The problem was I had misinterpreted a parti= cular law of physics, specifically how magnetic fields interact with each o= ther. It's a rather interesting phenomenon too, an interactive condition th= at is easy to misinterpret. However, because I had made a simple misinterpr= etation in my application of physics my "flawless" math took me down a road= of roses filled with the best of intentions.

Sometimes I try to comfort myself with the fact that it was an honest mista= ke on my part, one based on the best collection of information I had at my = fingertips at the time. But a mistake it still was.

These days, when I hear proclamations that their specially assembled softwa= re simulations (which, granted, are claimed to be based on how the real uni= verse operates) show how to generate oodles and oodles of free energy, I fi= nd myself remembering how my own simulations had also predicted the same cl= aims.

The best of luck to you all. May the best men and women win the prize!

Don't be surprised however if it turns out to be a valuable educational exp= erience. Hopefully, you will be able to afford the tuition

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWirks.com

--=_3c67d48132b50304222d921dde23c057-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 09:02:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25H2J7U002464; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:02:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25H2H2R002447; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:02:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:02:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=NVGxz00dxsHVFOHydqKo1Bn6Sc9FN2CB2DJ4EbFSI3JwEOLjRtG10hjLn+12gF9zlY9RYr15aP7K2//27YD2WHDPV2ENhXpoeARf5Ll064QK+MvLb2/x7P7e6EYVVDlN7GWx/NSnEn/3cantaD2zqtkEL9N0mUxd6fSQnnPgwj0= ; X-YMail-OSG: n_bWgRkVM1m3h.GnjV3o6FoJedmi35YPX.4SPOzhJ5RKHaRMtcAUXzmseETOAoGkb58gLgHLwfRDbR1ewE721mPEf9CpWMJQ7d.eJrnHhKBn.gxqMVO2ifTQYqFAjyP6Mu9jdPl1P1iiAsI- Message-ID: <45EC4D12.9000307@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:02:10 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73426 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ron, > For example the Jandy Model AE 2500 claims COP 5.4, while the Ice Breaker > Model H100R is rated at 5.6 and its big brother at 6.1, or > http://www.sortprice.com/search-CQ-Pool_and_Spa-Heat_Pump which all have > claims of COP's that are higher. Wow, I had no idea that they were getting that kind of performance. > I do realize in the application being discussed that ( W/Qh = Qh-Qc/Qh ) > would apply. Yes. Now we need to locate that elusive Stirling. BTW, an exciting subset of the Stirling is the thermoacoustic Stirling. NASA and LANL have been involved, and one suspects that the cutting-edge of thermoacoustic conversion has gone beyond what they are admitting to, in public: http://www.lanl.gov/mst/engine/ Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 09:04:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25H4Qs6003517; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:04:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25H4O5B003501; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:04:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:04:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cSzCIl+loxXNAtkVpsmF5lmaaBc5l2528h/0F2AwSKf+oylpiazjkMoTVFMaDQkMPvyV2FqLpcm72bc5n9iaXSfCX+q3TG5etEZp/B7K/EB+0tOh0xEuz8maO7HsPHtx3KvbIjQbTi3BSTJnd+3StlSz+hygYWHt1boIJ45Mywk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NDUqAY6f+aDGO/BL2KwbVIaeUgnbyQJqO8KnXKj07iKHGYYFh6/HCyug3WxuL6MzSoiCIIULDKzasvVBUELQ/biz4J6KVf3vLlpMKBCjF43QTchdmZQ61tewApUpuidzvRcWwn2dOkx1bv2PWQfU15RqjGyz67SUyk98rHZBuSk= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:04:22 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 In-Reply-To: <45EC3CE1.2080104@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> <45EC3CE1.2080104@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73427 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Could you please forward the details regarding that photo? Here's Tom's index: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 09:08:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25H8XIu030872; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:08:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25H8WwM030857; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:08:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:08:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bX/4t86+RyzZSlu11TBZUJTGb7Z6niwLyddp4eV6iI8q/r/mMddpW9pFx43oBBei624rwVNVBOmIkI4qdhO5rpRusI7+FofZ7DgGTSqPEG/Fz9ki1hTMwpPRd0AgXL0Q+SCQoLXPZw+NrDdTvCtAhOpJopBMDmtRJFcyeLjJScU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NOcFpwrif18Vue8M58zomMQdt/NwoSHVE9tBwHoh82w188S49IJfun80XA/sOhwb7rvyI4+5Ip4NdX8ixtvnsTNvegUKmVBgCxOOBcJTKwVQBPHdRZpytQ2+hnv8DkDcVHTXg1Ofs+cSYioU74323F0ZEa4er4JdNd11Wae18eE= Message-ID: <45EC4E7C.4060102@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:08:12 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73428 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > Charles Brown sez: > >> I am looking for people that sincerely want to >> escape the Second Law of Thermodynamics. > > Seems there have been other recent claims just as provocative as Mr. Brown's that have been made here as well. > > Brown's statement, however, strikes me as one of the most curiously worded proclamations of intent that I've read in quite a while... looking for a few good men (or women.) > > It would seem that there have been a LOT of proclamations lately on how one's simulated s/w models have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they have discovered "the-way" to beat the 2LoT, that "their" model points the way to salvation, to a panacea of free energy just waiting to save the world. > > Can it be done? Who knows. Science fiction authors have certainly conquered the 2LoT barrier many times over, so why can't it be done in our provincial little universe as well. Reality is often stranger than fiction. > > I can only offer the following snippet of insight, the result of a few hard lessons learned at my own expense - literally at my own expense. > > There was a time in my own recent history when I had come up with a model that seemed to point the way to a panacea of FE. It was a well thought out model too. I did the physics. I checked out the math thoroughly, as best as I could. The software simulations I was running at the time also seemed to confirm time after time that I had been correctly applying the math to my understanding of basic laws of physics. > > There was only one thing left for me to do - build the contraption. Fortunately for me the endeavor, while costly, wasn't going to be so outrageously expensive that I couldn't at least get a good idea as to whether I was on the right track or not. In the end I think I spent somewhere around two thousand dollars of personal savings in R&D, building my own POC, Proof of Concept prototype. > > The result of my intense endeavor was - most educational. > > It didn't work as advertised. Why? Didn't I do the math right? Where did I go wrong? > > Eventually, with the help of another colleague (who shall remain nameless) I discovered my error. > > The biggest irony of it all for me was the fact that my math WAS correct - my "theory" worked. Unfortunately, Mother Nature never asked me for my opinion on how she runs the store. The problem was I had misinterpreted a particular law of physics, specifically how magnetic fields interact with each other. It's a rather interesting phenomenon too, an interactive condition that is easy to misinterpret. However, because I had made a simple misinterpretation in my application of physics my "flawless" math took me down a road of roses filled with the best of intentions. > > Sometimes I try to comfort myself with the fact that it was an honest mistake on my part, one based on the best collection of information I had at my fingertips at the time. But a mistake it still was. > > These days, when I hear proclamations that their specially assembled software simulations (which, granted, are claimed to be based on how the real universe operates) show how to generate oodles and oodles of free energy, I find myself remembering how my own simulations had also predicted the same claims. > > The best of luck to you all. May the best men and women win the prize! > > Don't be surprised however if it turns out to be a valuable educational experience. Hopefully, you will be able to afford the tuition > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWirks.com Fortunately I am every EE has seen a capacitor charged by thermal noise. :-) This is not theory. Far too many times I have seen and worked with thermal noise. It is a fact: At any given moment a capacitor connected to a resistor will contain a certain charge caused by electrical thermal noise. :-) BTW, those who reply to Steven Vincent Johnson's email please note the reply address in his email does not go to vortex-l@eskimo.com So basically you'll think the email went to everyone when in reality it would not. If you reply then you'll need to change the "To:" address to vortex-l@eskimo.com. Also, could we please leave the subject to "Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy." Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 09:45:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25Hj5xx024455; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:45:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25Hj5hi024448; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:45:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:45:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=mp9yYQwCW99olxxmXf7mdrvRvs01JMSUv98lHMh1iTnjxm3hgkLEWYQoG1qyNGjCTVZgAPpi219gtdXA5L/RoEhcTe6dgG4VvjctwgeD7aPJi9fglppKkMuzTfRQGfekK3TETbEz5oWl9pRVwx9hf/FQtN05UPPRV6Otat/IhjM= ; X-YMail-OSG: 01nbx_oVM1nBCefuyX1M8nLQvHd2wNENlTM8yUccy2Og8WTF6kD9CyMLqNYlWK9VunCosbjH4oQ0kAtADHx8ZeqIb4eJaMQ2sXO9qbIBvhm8XMzcjMP6AhbUU.l1vHjDjQS6BywCuq.sVYcHEKA781TL.w-- Message-ID: <45EC5719.4010807@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:44:57 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diode array 070304 References: <45EC4342.3050007@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45EC4342.3050007@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73429 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: energymover@gmail.com wrote: > I would encourage more people to work on this research, as such research > is vitally important. Any highly motivated go-getter individual should > be able to get something going within four months time. It might be worth adding -- given the confluence of overlapping postings this weekend -- that this basic idea of thermal diode array can also be applied to a hybridized mechanical heat pump system. There is something which is a bit mysterious, and truly anomalous (at least I have seen no good mainstream explanation for it) about the situation of cathode discharges; and the so-called "negative resistance" effect which is often seen there (actually is is negative differential resistance) ... and diodes are in the low-end of that superset (cathode effects). IOW - Getting electrons into the physical state of what is called "ballistic" acceleration from a cathode - is the point in time (picosecond) when a possible energy gain, from some extra-dimensional source (Dirac epo field) is possible. There is also the Casimir angle to understanding the energy balance of ballistic discharges. If energy is recoverable using ambient thermal noise, then it is likely to be much more robust when using the heat from the first or second stages of a Linde-type heat pump. The advantage of this kind of hybrid system is that about half the energy input which is required to make liquid air is recoverable by the simple expedient of expanding liquid air through a turbine, and the big advantage there - is that the cooling effect of expanding liquid air increases the Carnot spread of any heat engine, so that the previously mentioned Stirling is conceivably getting closer to unity. If at the same time, some of the thermal energy is rectified into current, that might be enough to push a compound system over the top. To be honest, I think that doing this would require so much precision engineering and man-hours of effort -- that it is waaaay beyond the capabilities of any unaffiliated inventor without an eight figure grant; but heck... getting even close to OU might be what gets you that grant in the first place. ...at least in a future society which sees the advantage of such R&D which is only possible once we are able, as intelligent voters, to accomplish some kind of "regime change" away from the present Petrocracy. That may mean a third party: but even the threat of a grassroots movement to a "green" party would have both the major parties retuning 'payola' handouts from big oil, and switching horses. That is the best thing about having a fluid two party system: they share the common interest of keeping the power split between two, and no more than two. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 09:46:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25HkJcJ024835; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:46:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25HkGJP024797; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:46:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:46:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MrpVjBGEqMCMsrVT7N56yvdKTRbah/WltCDUsNnf0BPr8b5sFaWJMKiW7d1WH8p9byg0dP8MFpUIbFbG2LMynWo/gPqGYDwX/PCFoH+yIHwrOKF2xm2aLfXvw2dDQtYD+0a0m5lsLC0HzEOJRGgpeEg2wpmwWMqozGFHK705x2A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dNhmmV8rXnoN/JlcxsWekOi072Dm9OAtvHk5yqeBKt2N2DiBsfbc+3DBxiJm2dLVXuMnX0TVaVPt6sPU5+cIQkJFBxuiBuu+7nxWkUaCf7qI9FweP2KQjAN24oAAUMxDt4CLO+3OuHsVxzMsbSmnSgBadIxZYdIBkzU/AASLJV8= Message-ID: <45EC575A.2060306@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 09:46:02 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> <45EC3CE1.2080104@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73430 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >> Could you please forward the details regarding that photo? > > Here's Tom's index: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ > > Terry Thank you. The first document I read, "Final Report, May 6, 2006 (text)" said, "What I got was about 1 microvolt of DC" I was going to study his circuit, but he's already claiming successful results. I already know for fact from experiments and very fundamental theory that it's possible to extract energy from ambient temperature, so from my perspective there's very little reason at the moment to spend more time on his experiment(s). The document mentioned Charlie's 1T7 schottky array 1 THz diodes, which is very interesting. Those interested in this research should install the free LTSpice simulator. Spice simulation programs are very accurate, unless one doesn't understand what they're doing, and heavily used by EE's. Of course LTSpice comes with a small amount of preloaded spice models, but there are thousands of freely available spice models on the Internet. Also you can create your own spice model for any part. There are a lot of factors involved besides diode bandwidth, which one will quickly discover in Spice simulations. As far as trying to break the 2nd law of thermodynamics ... please, lets all get away from that silly task for the simple reason there's no single interpretation of the 2nd law. The well-taken quote in the physics community of Physicist P.W. Bridgman says it all, "There are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions of it." Even the physics community at WikiPedia gladly display Bridgman's quote, and such physicists at WikiPedia are supporters of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Therefore, one is advised to concentrate on extracting energy from ambient temperature, not breaking the 2nd law. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 09:52:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25HqJkQ028819; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:52:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25HqHik028800; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:52:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:52:17 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_6a621af2e14731dd4a75239819828198" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070305175533.D8C72BFB56@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73431 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bad email accounts Status: O X-Status: --=_6a621af2e14731dd4a75239819828198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... > BTW, those who reply to Steven Vincent Johnson's email > please note the reply address in his email does not go > to vortex-l@eskimo.com So basically you'll think the > email went to everyone when in reality it would not. > If you reply then you'll need to change the "To:" > address to vortex-l@eskimo.com. > ... > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > My current on-line email carrier seems to be less than a desirable product. A previous recent post was completly garbled - all formatting removed. The fact that my "reply-to" email points back to my personal account rather than the vortex box is not of my doing. It is not the way I had set the account up. I'm at that point where it's time to start shoping around. I've noticed Google's Gmail service seems to be popular these days. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_6a621af2e14731dd4a75239819828198 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...

> BTW, those who reply to Steven Vincent Johnson's email
> please note the reply address in his email does not go
> to vortex-l@eskimo.com So basically you'll think the
> email went to everyone when in reality it would not.
> If you reply then you'll need to change the "To:"
> address to vortex-l@eskimo.com.
>
...
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>

My current on-line email carrier seems to be less than a desirable product.= A previous recent post was completly garbled - all formatting removed. The= fact that my "reply-to" email points back to my personal account rather th= an the vortex box is not of my doing. It is not the way I had set the accou= nt up. I'm at that point where it's time to start shoping around. I've noti= ced Google's Gmail service seems to be popular these days.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


--=_6a621af2e14731dd4a75239819828198-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 09:55:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25HsW0x003376; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:54:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25HsROZ003152; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:54:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:54:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45EC4D12.9000307@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:56:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l25Hs3HK003036 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73432 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK thanks Jones, Ron et al. I could have gone on and on like this, describing encouraging experimental results maybe, raising millions perhaps, but I'll put an end to my little joke, which was in reality a challenge to the group's thermodynamics skills, nothing against the two of you as I hope you will understand. My scheme simply can NOT work as I realized before I even posted it, because the absolute max efficiency of a heat pump, which depends only on the absolute temperatures of the hot and cold sources, is exactly equal to one over the absolute max efficiency of a heat engine working with the same temperature sources (the formulae derive from the W and Q formula Ron gave), so that if you increase one you decrease the other, and when you multiply the two the very best you can get is a global COP of... 1. ;-( It's all in the wikipedia articles 'heat pump' and 'heat engine', nothing arcane. Anyway like Steven said working on a defective scheme is a valuable educational experience, I learnt e.g. that: - One can't go around multiplying airily the best efficiencies one finds in the literature to make a loop overunity, it's more complex than that. - COPs of the order of 10 _can_ be obtained from such mundane things as residential heat pumps. Maybe this innocent hoax will preserve some here against less innocent ones? I haven't much hope in this respect though. My apologies if I have given false hopes or hurt anybody in any way. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > Ron, > >> For example the Jandy Model AE 2500 claims COP 5.4, while the Ice Breaker >> Model H100R is rated at 5.6 and its big brother at 6.1, or >> http://www.sortprice.com/search-CQ-Pool_and_Spa-Heat_Pump which all have >> claims of COP's that are higher. > > Wow, I had no idea that they were getting that kind of performance. > >> I do realize in the application being discussed that ( W/Qh = Qh-Qc/Qh ) >> would apply. > > Yes. Now we need to locate that elusive Stirling. BTW, an exciting > subset of the Stirling is the thermoacoustic Stirling. NASA and LANL > have been involved, and one suspects that the cutting-edge of > thermoacoustic conversion has gone beyond what they are admitting to, in > public: > > http://www.lanl.gov/mst/engine/ > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 10:21:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25ILRx4016541; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:21:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25ILP8a016526; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:21:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:21:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WSdib9l2nxOcT+BDFubbu8YYP87PsG+CWjTl82jgSRDc/X4z8A1LO6OaW80cPQZoUNHiNeWdTODOTlu2uQTwfSQEpNlKITKTLD2bKTt87EBl4+MCBUXpqiCccN2W5xBUKFOQtXwF99LROGVj9xzLJqM2SrpHNIwYflHhCYuyBkc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=h6+pLBUHT0NXnj7RD1oQeubPa4Sl84JpwLvmHuzHwtw93XYehe8tjJdwhbtNjGjlKqhgmENUIR+Qug6ZL8rsHftN6gS7DyLPEoH3nb8IeqlVD25RywRwmDNljlZ6TxDo+odLXbE3nbw7XTb2pdwYRr2aQc2gTsLNS9gp0K4IeLk= Message-ID: <45EC5F97.6000500@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:21:11 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Naudin's conditioned resistors References: <45EC4D12.9000307@pacbell.net> <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73433 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Has anyone replicated and studied Naudin's conditioned carbon resistors? Naudin's scope shots show the resistance is not linear relative to resistance current. That would be a very interesting effect to study. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 10:25:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25IP3IM018912; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:25:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25IP2IB018877; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:25:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:25:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZUal3T3zwINX+wW+2Q9EuzpkvFulwZrBfWCXBxj7efTnLrySZ0s7obUKtwDjnHJY; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:24:33 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26095fccbe37c3d21491f448af42a15e7274a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73434 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel; Being an old lazy man I have found that all efforts to separate the men from the boys, ends up in two subsets that don't equal the whole. :-) -----Original Message----- From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:56 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) OK thanks Jones, Ron et al. I could have gone on and on like this, describing encouraging experimental results maybe, raising millions perhaps, but I'll put an end to my little joke, which was in reality a challenge to the group's thermodynamics skills, nothing against the two of you as I hope you will understand. My scheme simply can NOT work as I realized before I even posted it, because the absolute max efficiency of a heat pump, which depends only on the absolute temperatures of the hot and cold sources, is exactly equal to one over the absolute max efficiency of a heat engine working with the same temperature sources (the formulae derive from the W and Q formula Ron gave), so that if you increase one you decrease the other, and when you multiply the two the very best you can get is a global COP of... 1. ;-( It's all in the wikipedia articles 'heat pump' and 'heat engine', nothing arcane. Anyway like Steven said working on a defective scheme is a valuable educational experience, I learnt e.g. that: - One can't go around multiplying airily the best efficiencies one finds in the literature to make a loop overunity, it's more complex than that. - COPs of the order of 10 _can_ be obtained from such mundane things as residential heat pumps. Maybe this innocent hoax will preserve some here against less innocent ones? I haven't much hope in this respect though. My apologies if I have given false hopes or hurt anybody in any way. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > Ron, > >> For example the Jandy Model AE 2500 claims COP 5.4, while the Ice Breaker >> Model H100R is rated at 5.6 and its big brother at 6.1, or >> http://www.sortprice.com/search-CQ-Pool_and_Spa-Heat_Pump which all have >> claims of COP's that are higher. > > Wow, I had no idea that they were getting that kind of performance. > >> I do realize in the application being discussed that ( W/Qh = Qh-Qc/Qh ) >> would apply. > > Yes. Now we need to locate that elusive Stirling. BTW, an exciting > subset of the Stirling is the thermoacoustic Stirling. NASA and LANL > have been involved, and one suspects that the cutting-edge of > thermoacoustic conversion has gone beyond what they are admitting to, in > public: > > http://www.lanl.gov/mst/engine/ > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 10:35:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25IZORR032517; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:35:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25IZIQi032462; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:35:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:35:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=fgsr6k5B/ImqjxI87RHPZTfIifzanhRK/iV3gt9q0ycl1URatClsI/h7KpMxyfh8TyHXOuKMYN6SnWT3iMEIb3K8b1tKSTWGGN61wwPG7wegdGfl1J4dG+a6zr1gKcsSZdF35wBIhvzDdIJIVBbIzlSi0z0rQcGmru2lB2iQLXk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=BxztvED1nvhXc0lfjfmSpY2fmoTNCoJ5CeRO3Oak5DF8wWVAA9aDRtSS0Dh7sfgJd9UdAu54wzsVFluzu129zWJfam+arr3tHLsTOgPJq23syKp/vgRBwt9WRvX8erDXBR4Ru0la2iHBOM6uoeV8/e7mf5uq9KX2uPloOrXi+64= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:35:17 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l25IZHkI032430 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73435 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New Carbon-based Life Form Status: O X-Status: http://www.physorg.com/news91891899.html "New graphene transistor promises life after death of silicon chip (image caption) Single-electron transistors carved entirely in a graphene sheet. The central elements are so-called quantum dots allowing electrons to flow one by one. The dots are connected to wider regions (contact pads by nm-wide constrictions) that work as tunnel barriers. Credit: University of Manchester Researchers have used the world's thinnest material to create the world's smallest transistor – a breakthrough that could spark the development of a new type of super-fast computer chip. Professor Andre Geim and Dr Kostya Novoselov from The School of Physics and Astronomy at The University of Manchester, reveal details of transistors that are only one atom thick and less than 50 atoms wide, in the March issue of Nature Materials. They believe this innovation will allow the rapid miniaturisation of electronics to continue when the current silicon-based technology runs out of steam." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 10:53:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25Ir0B4017747; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:53:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25Ir0qJ017734; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:53:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 10:53:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jEZuwUhL5lyG6dzxklqG9SLffAT+I+4DAyPb9t4V0FRgqy7gdcN/jiehhDC2CUTu; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Naudin's conditioned resistors Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:52:30 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <45EC5F97.6000500@gmail.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609407d44eb984556ddba04ee854abe562a548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73436 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At first blush, I would wonder the effect as being a result of micro-fractures in the carbon structure. Increasing voltage would (could) change the current path and result in many different paths, additionally being impacted by thermal changes cased by the current flow. This experiment have many variables and many dependant variables. Any EE has seen the effect in stressed resistors. -----Original Message----- From: energymover@gmail.com [mailto:energymover@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:21 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Naudin's conditioned resistors Hi, Has anyone replicated and studied Naudin's conditioned carbon resistors? Naudin's scope shots show the resistance is not linear relative to resistance current. That would be a very interesting effect to study. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 11:12:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25JBojP027306; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:11:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25JBmKi027286; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:11:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:11:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016301c75f5a$6962b380$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> <45EC3CE1.2080104@gmail.com> <45EC575A.2060306@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:13:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l25JBkDH027259 Resent-Message-ID: <4_5fJD.A.RqG.0tG7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73437 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'll agree with Paul for once, LTSpice is truly excellent, not only free but also one of the most accurate and fastest Spice implementations around. A must have for anyone involved in EE. Graphical interface a bit surprising at first, but quite efficient when you get used to it. Can't vouch on how well (how randomly) it deals with noise though, errare programmerum est, plus one must not forget that such sotware produces another source of noise, namely computational noise, which may not be as random as the simulated one, and may be quite significant if you're looking at femtovolts. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > > >> Could you please forward the details regarding that photo? > > > > Here's Tom's index: > > > > http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ > > > > Terry > > > > Thank you. The first document I read, "Final Report, May 6, 2006 (text)" said, > "What I got was about 1 microvolt of DC" I was going to study his circuit, but > he's already claiming successful results. I already know for fact from > experiments and very fundamental theory that it's possible to extract energy > from ambient temperature, so from my perspective there's very little reason at > the moment to spend more time on his experiment(s). > > The document mentioned Charlie's 1T7 schottky array 1 THz diodes, which is very > interesting. Those interested in this research should install the free LTSpice > simulator. Spice simulation programs are very accurate, unless one doesn't > understand what they're doing, and heavily used by EE's. Of course LTSpice > comes with a small amount of preloaded spice models, but there are thousands of > freely available spice models on the Internet. Also you can create your own > spice model for any part. > > There are a lot of factors involved besides diode bandwidth, which one will > quickly discover in Spice simulations. > > > As far as trying to break the 2nd law of thermodynamics ... please, lets all > get away from that silly task for the simple reason there's no single > interpretation of the 2nd law. The well-taken quote in the physics community of > Physicist P.W. Bridgman says it all, "There are almost as many formulations of > the second law as there have been discussions of it." Even the physics > community at WikiPedia gladly display Bridgman's quote, and such physicists at > WikiPedia are supporters of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. > > Therefore, one is advised to concentrate on extracting energy from ambient > temperature, not breaking the 2nd law. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 11:14:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25JEQYi014476; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:14:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25JEOKx014458; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:14:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:14:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aHTujxoIvcuhxzC91NR3xVgLfNvQXYtQg+eR1/dE+IjMwBqwpdNtlkA+PLEkmzb4htp6FekqX0g4/pQPNShDSFsOl+0EEBwJt/u5fL1utZRqxw++rDZ5dUVzpQNIvUbCVWYg4iq+GC5/975sO5uH/jDbRAvZCFYkSFiMCOw3W5E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=l94enKX0ZOnmaVKqo8toqZov2eWAx40VH5jwqrsAxqZtnV2EL9L2vHrGXFlAMrfl6CnZBop985N8YuTeid81/St1P6/tgrGtBJ9CVLLa0nA+WdA6AAEhovnOtN392iPF4kJTjdtAd1Itsrps2NZyk5s5d306G5BGpONPEmM5Uzs= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:14:22 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <06f901c75d89$a38a48c0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73438 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This guy puts his electrodes inside ping pong balls: http://bmiklos2000.freeweb.hu/unipolar.htm Terry On 3/3/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > Unshackle and release the prisoner... > > 2W * 'kV/mm' * 'grams' = 2W * .9 * 100000 = 180000 W = 180 kW > > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > > I will only comment when you'll have released the power consumed by the 100kg > > lifter ;-) > > > > Michel > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 11:44:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25JiViR030818; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:44:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25JiTss030792; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:44:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:44:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:45:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) In-reply-to: <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73439 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > OK thanks Jones, Ron et al. I could have gone on and on like this, describing > encouraging experimental results maybe, raising millions perhaps, but I'll put > an end to my little joke, which was in reality a challenge to the group's > thermodynamics skills, nothing against the two of you as I hope you will > understand. > > My scheme simply can NOT work as I realized before I even posted it, because > the absolute max efficiency of a heat pump, which depends only on the absolute > temperatures of the hot and cold sources, is exactly equal to one over the > absolute max efficiency of a heat engine working with the same temperature > sources (the formulae derive from the W and Q formula Ron gave), so that if > you increase one you decrease the other, and when you multiply the two the > very best you can get is a global COP of... 1. ;-( > > It's all in the wikipedia articles 'heat pump' and 'heat engine', nothing > arcane. > > Anyway like Steven said working on a defective scheme is a valuable > educational experience, I learnt e.g. that: > > - One can't go around multiplying airily the best efficiencies one finds in > the literature to make a loop overunity, it's more complex than that. > > - COPs of the order of 10 _can_ be obtained from such mundane things as > residential heat pumps. > > Maybe this innocent hoax will preserve some here against less innocent ones? I > haven't much hope in this respect though. > > My apologies if I have given false hopes or hurt anybody in any way. > > Michel Michel why don't you offer your services to James Randi? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 11:45:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25Jj8Z0031183; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:45:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25Jj6il031166; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:45:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:45:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017101c75f5f$10ab1d90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <06f901c75d89$a38a48c0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:47:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l25Jj4lk031142 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73440 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Borbas believes like many amateur physicists before him that he has disproved the ion wind explanation, it's a long story he has been multiposting/spamming several dozens of mailing lists with his uninformed theory. He doesn't even realize that the air discharge implies an ion current, which implies neutrals entrainment i.e. ion wind, this pretty well sums it up. Michel P.S. Oh yes I had forgotten my promise to Harry below, my comment was that mv^2/r for the satellite can be thought of as a centrifugal force or as a centripetal acceleration times mass depending on the frame (it changes sign while going from the F side to the m*a side), but not as a centripetal force as you had put it. The centripetal force here is gravity of course. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame > This guy puts his electrodes inside ping pong balls: > > http://bmiklos2000.freeweb.hu/unipolar.htm > > Terry > > On 3/3/07, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> >> Unshackle and release the prisoner... >> >> 2W * 'kV/mm' * 'grams' = 2W * .9 * 100000 = 180000 W = 180 kW >> >> >> Harry >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> > I will only comment when you'll have released the power consumed by the 100kg >> > lifter ;-) >> > >> > Michel >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 11:55:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25JtaIZ027958; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:55:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25JtY40027925; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:55:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:56:28 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-reply-to: <20070305164316.17853BFB66@mail1.mx.core.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73441 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Brown sez: > I am looking for people that sincerely want to > escape the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Out law the buying and selling of joules. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 11:56:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25JuFVi006962; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:56:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25JuDAM006942; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:56:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:56:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kCytb+LDklelgCDKiYw3hLm7RxGX+Sb+afptfwxiQPwA6pCCnP2d2SXmSv5KGfq3pGexT9bTHFswNBr4bDEOdvMSAc3cradH/+BH58TvxpuZaP6lGK9GNUO2ZVtFDhDVyP3FrN2C/Up0Q8A7DpaOnlwTIQZIv5UiBw49mZHeQKc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PPhDyqmhKHkVgi9qCZjbgZXLwQcsr6+BzzO0UGfYubOTG8bAO4FnTrjsM/E2+GlfrEENvXIddGlOiBOKXWgl6z5GuVSjcZe7TwgEjXkbqorYY98lNCrt8hBcmrrX9QXiQ3vR9aRTc5mJr/cWZT8Uz6mtYw/k410m1DqFg7/LQ14= Message-ID: <45EC75CE.60707@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:55:58 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> <45EC3CE1.2080104@gmail.com> <45EC575A.2060306@gmail.com> <016301c75f5a$6962b380$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <016301c75f5a$6962b380$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73442 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > I'll agree with Paul for once, LTSpice is truly excellent, not only free but also one of the most accurate and fastest Spice implementations around. A must have for anyone involved in EE. Graphical interface a bit surprising at first, but quite efficient when you get used to it. > > Can't vouch on how well (how randomly) it deals with noise though, errare programmerum est, plus one must not forget that such sotware produces another source of noise, namely computational noise, which may not be as random as the simulated one, and may be quite significant if you're looking at femtovolts. --- That's true. Example, if one's working with frequencies up to 1 GHz then they would want to set the maximum time step to no higher than 0.1 ns. For Charlie's application or anyone working with this technology would want to implement LTSpice's ability to read from a file. The user would record *real* thermal noise to a .wav file, which LTSpice would use as a source-- Very nice feature! Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > > >> Terry Blanton wrote: >>> On 3/5/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> Could you please forward the details regarding that photo? >>> Here's Tom's index: >>> >>> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ >>> >>> Terry >> >> >> Thank you. The first document I read, "Final Report, May 6, 2006 (text)" said, >> "What I got was about 1 microvolt of DC" I was going to study his circuit, but >> he's already claiming successful results. I already know for fact from >> experiments and very fundamental theory that it's possible to extract energy >> from ambient temperature, so from my perspective there's very little reason at >> the moment to spend more time on his experiment(s). >> >> The document mentioned Charlie's 1T7 schottky array 1 THz diodes, which is very >> interesting. Those interested in this research should install the free LTSpice >> simulator. Spice simulation programs are very accurate, unless one doesn't >> understand what they're doing, and heavily used by EE's. Of course LTSpice >> comes with a small amount of preloaded spice models, but there are thousands of >> freely available spice models on the Internet. Also you can create your own >> spice model for any part. >> >> There are a lot of factors involved besides diode bandwidth, which one will >> quickly discover in Spice simulations. >> >> >> As far as trying to break the 2nd law of thermodynamics ... please, lets all >> get away from that silly task for the simple reason there's no single >> interpretation of the 2nd law. The well-taken quote in the physics community of >> Physicist P.W. Bridgman says it all, "There are almost as many formulations of >> the second law as there have been discussions of it." Even the physics >> community at WikiPedia gladly display Bridgman's quote, and such physicists at >> WikiPedia are supporters of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. >> >> Therefore, one is advised to concentrate on extracting energy from ambient >> temperature, not breaking the 2nd law. >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 12:00:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25K0974031621; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:00:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25JveJd029424; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:57:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:57:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WikwaZ2KQEi/74zYJL6fWy9Da2u3m+5nJ1BA3WzdhjYwmeHxW3JioCj840y+ChO4; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Charles Brown sez Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:57:12 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C75F2E.2C80C780" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20070305164316.17853BFB66@mail1.mx.core.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26095540061b6fd9831ce1a107e9aa5c41ed350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <3J5iNC.A.kLH.zYH7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73443 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C75F2E.2C80C780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you not one of the lucky ones!. I retired some three years ago to do pure research with the ideas I had but never had time to follow. Had a nice bank account that should have lasted until the end, but with scopes costing $kk.00 and on and on (you know), I now think I might join the crowd and sell books or cd's or whatever that promise OU until I reach the great gas burner in the sky, got that wrong, great gas burner down below. Hey all levity aside, you are indeed lucky that you saw the light at a few grand. No education is worth it unless it it the hard knocks kind. :-) Great post and needed often to wake up the chair crowd, you know the ones that think to much an DO to little. Great to see an honest post. (No I am not saying anything about the posts on vortex, rather I'm saying it's refreshing to hear of mistakes). -----Original Message----- From: Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:ow01@voyager.net] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:40 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Charles Brown sez: > I am looking for people that sincerely want to > escape the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Seems there have been other recent claims just as provocative as Mr. Brown's that have been made here as well. Brown's statement, however, strikes me as one of the most curiously worded proclamations of intent that I've read in quite a while... looking for a few good men (or women.) It would seem that there have been a LOT of proclamations lately on how one's simulated s/w models have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they have discovered "the-way" to beat the 2LoT, that "their" model points the way to salvation, to a panacea of free energy just waiting to save the world. Can it be done? Who knows. Science fiction authors have certainly conquered the 2LoT barrier many times over, so why can't it be done in our provincial little universe as well. Reality is often stranger than fiction. I can only offer the following snippet of insight, the result of a few hard lessons learned at my own expense - literally at my own expense. There was a time in my own recent history when I had come up with a model that seemed to point the way to a panacea of FE. It was a well thought out model too. I did the physics. I checked out the math thoroughly, as best as I could. The software simulations I was running at the time also seemed to confirm time after time that I had been correctly applying the math to my understanding of basic laws of physics. There was only one thing left for me to do - build the contraption. Fortunately for me the endeavor, while costly, wasn't going to be so outrageously expensive that I couldn't at least get a good idea as to whether I was on the right track or not. In the end I think I spent somewhere around two thousand dollars of personal savings in R&D, building my own POC, Proof of Concept prototype. The result of my intense endeavor was - most educational. It didn't work as advertised. Why? Didn't I do the math right? Where did I go wrong? Eventually, with the help of another colleague (who shall remain nameless) I discovered my error. The biggest irony of it all for me was the fact that my math WAS correct - my "theory" worked. Unfortunately, Mother Nature never asked me for my opinion on how she runs the store. The problem was I had misinterpreted a particular law of physics, specifically how magnetic fields interact with each other. It's a rather interesting phenomenon too, an interactive condition that is easy to misinterpret. However, because I had made a simple misinterpretation in my application of physics my "flawless" math took me down a road of roses filled with the best of intentions. Sometimes I try to comfort myself with the fact that it was an honest mistake on my part, one based on the best collection of information I had at my fingertips at the time. But a mistake it still was. These days, when I hear proclamations that their specially assembled software simulations (which, granted, are claimed to be based on how the real universe operates) show how to generate oodles and oodles of free energy, I find myself remembering how my own simulations had also predicted the same claims. The best of luck to you all. May the best men and women win the prize! Don't be surprised however if it turns out to be a valuable educational experience. Hopefully, you will be able to afford the tuition Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWirks.com ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C75F2E.2C80C780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Are=20 you not one of the lucky ones!. I retired some three years ago to do = pure=20 research with the ideas I had but never had time to follow. Had a = nice bank=20 account that should have lasted until the end, but with scopes costing = $kk.00=20 and on and on (you know), I now think I might join the crowd and sell = books or=20 cd's or whatever that promise OU until I reach the great gas burner in = the sky,=20 got that wrong, great gas burner down below.
 
Hey=20 all levity aside, you are indeed lucky that you saw the light at a few = grand. No=20 education is worth it unless it it the hard knocks kind. = :-)
 
Great=20 post and needed often to wake up the chair crowd, you know the ones that = think=20 to much an DO to little.
 
Great=20 to see an honest post. (No I am not saying anything about the posts on = vortex,=20 rather I'm saying it's refreshing to hear of = mistakes).
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Vincent = Johnson=20 [mailto:ow01@voyager.net]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:40 = AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:=20

Charles Brown sez:

> I am looking for = people=20 that sincerely want to
> escape the Second Law of=20 Thermodynamics.

Seems there have been other recent claims just = as=20 provocative as Mr. Brown's that have been made here as = well.

Brown's=20 statement, however, strikes me as one of the most curiously worded=20 proclamations of intent that I've read in quite a while... looking for = a few=20 good men (or women.)

It would seem that there have been a LOT = of=20 proclamations lately on how one's simulated s/w models have proven = beyond a=20 shadow of doubt that they have discovered "the-way" to beat the 2LoT, = that=20 "their" model points the way to salvation, to a panacea of free energy = just=20 waiting to save the world.

Can it be done? Who knows. Science = fiction=20 authors have certainly conquered the 2LoT barrier many times over, so = why=20 can't it be done in our provincial little universe as well. Reality is = often=20 stranger than fiction.

I can only offer the following snippet = of=20 insight, the result of a few hard lessons learned at my own expense -=20 literally at my own expense.

There was a time in my own recent = history=20 when I had come up with a model that seemed to point the way to a = panacea of=20 FE. It was a well thought out model too. I did the physics. I checked = out the=20 math thoroughly, as best as I could. The software simulations I was = running at=20 the time also seemed to confirm time after time that I had been = correctly=20 applying the math to my understanding of basic laws of = physics.

There=20 was only one thing left for me to do - build the contraption. = Fortunately for=20 me the endeavor, while costly, wasn't going to be so outrageously = expensive=20 that I couldn't at least get a good idea as to whether I was on the = right=20 track or not. In the end I think I spent somewhere around two thousand = dollars=20 of personal savings in R&D, building my own POC, Proof of Concept=20 prototype.

The result of my intense endeavor was - most=20 educational.

It didn't work as advertised. Why? Didn't I do the = math=20 right? Where did I go wrong?

Eventually, with the help of = another=20 colleague (who shall remain nameless) I discovered my = error.

The=20 biggest irony of it all for me was the fact that my math WAS correct - = my=20 "theory" worked. Unfortunately, Mother Nature never asked me for my = opinion on=20 how she runs the store. The problem was I had misinterpreted a = particular law=20 of physics, specifically how magnetic fields interact with each other. = It's a=20 rather interesting phenomenon too, an interactive condition that is = easy to=20 misinterpret. However, because I had made a simple misinterpretation = in my=20 application of physics my "flawless" math took me down a road of roses = filled=20 with the best of intentions.

Sometimes I try to comfort myself = with=20 the fact that it was an honest mistake on my part, one based on the = best=20 collection of information I had at my fingertips at the time. But a = mistake it=20 still was.

These days, when I hear proclamations that their = specially=20 assembled software simulations (which, granted, are claimed to be = based on how=20 the real universe operates) show how to generate oodles and oodles of = free=20 energy, I find myself remembering how my own simulations had also = predicted=20 the same claims.

The best of luck to you all. May the best men = and=20 women win the prize!

Don't be surprised however if it turns out = to be a=20 valuable educational experience. Hopefully, you will be able to afford = the=20 tuition

Regards,
Steven Vincent=20 Johnson
www.OrionWirks.com

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C75F2E.2C80C780-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 12:07:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25K7jjS004687; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:07:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25K7h29004660; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:07:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:07:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4ycZ/AvXSVIR8p9t4ocDGYbwK6wfQPrOgVI2rAiRuJbffj/eaOWa4aqVIOvbOYWCfBnKQpACLwWDlWPAh3+Q8HaDHUMe/zC4yIT3wVxcZa1S8elVXV8xPhcyVZOQUK2bQ+DexWK6mWu8F5cKuiT2/44qLjgGxByPYsbgDo47xAQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: yvsohsQVM1nWnuDMiqzNsPN0nm7B23TlkfP7Gd9GxRfXqZTcVG5uby0tR5IywlyrwWfMBieSfVwa61G_.UQvw4qhzUfhOHsf5K5K4YpGHdc3fMWKZPYMpDqREowAfi_tbl9b03yqry7c7w-- Message-ID: <45EC7889.3070409@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:07:37 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73444 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >> My scheme simply can NOT work as I realized before I even posted it, because >> the absolute max efficiency of a heat pump, which depends only on the absolute >> temperatures of the hot and cold sources, is exactly equal to one over the >> absolute max efficiency of a heat engine working with the same temperature >> sources (the formulae derive from the W and Q formula Ron gave), so that if >> you increase one you decrease the other, and when you multiply the two the >> very best you can get is a global COP of... 1. ;-( Actually, Michel, no one was fooled by your ruse for a nanosecond, as I am sure that you must realize but nevertheless, it is interesting to continue the thread to its logical ending ... ...which is this: what you have stated above in not necessarily true: i.e "when you multiply the two the very best you can get is a global COP of 1" ... as you have neglected a very important point. So let me challenge you: can you find the fault in your own logic? Hint: this will involve expanding the formula outside of its local frame into a larger frame of reference .... somewhat as a microcosm of the differences between SR and GR. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 12:11:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25KAwTt014612; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:10:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25KAvwi014585; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:10:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:10:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NWFBW05DMGmRTYgB2s7PPTiaretToVjjiZvESURFcs4fvTe3o3/z3EXsR9nMGnzR; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:10:29 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <45EC7889.3070409@pacbell.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c260927f8b165de3b30de18da0761c3ce15db2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73445 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones; Why play with him, he is only learning to spread his wings? -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:08 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Michel Jullian wrote: >> My scheme simply can NOT work as I realized before I even posted it, because >> the absolute max efficiency of a heat pump, which depends only on the absolute >> temperatures of the hot and cold sources, is exactly equal to one over the >> absolute max efficiency of a heat engine working with the same temperature >> sources (the formulae derive from the W and Q formula Ron gave), so that if >> you increase one you decrease the other, and when you multiply the two the >> very best you can get is a global COP of... 1. ;-( Actually, Michel, no one was fooled by your ruse for a nanosecond, as I am sure that you must realize but nevertheless, it is interesting to continue the thread to its logical ending ... ...which is this: what you have stated above in not necessarily true: i.e "when you multiply the two the very best you can get is a global COP of 1" ... as you have neglected a very important point. So let me challenge you: can you find the fault in your own logic? Hint: this will involve expanding the formula outside of its local frame into a larger frame of reference .... somewhat as a microcosm of the differences between SR and GR. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 12:31:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25KVMIC030853; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:31:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25KVKg5030833; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:31:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 12:31:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:32:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <017101c75f5f$10ab1d90$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73446 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Borbas believes like many amateur physicists before him that he has disproved > the ion wind explanation, it's a long story he has been multiposting/spamming > several dozens of mailing lists with his uninformed theory. He doesn't even > realize that the air discharge implies an ion current, which implies neutrals > entrainment i.e. ion wind, this pretty well sums it up. > > Michel what do you make of this? http://bmiklos2000.freeweb.hu/unipolar.htm Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 13:06:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25L6As6030327; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:06:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25L68wl030295; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:06:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:06:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 16:06:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <017101c75f5f$10ab1d90$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73447 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > P.S. Oh yes I had forgotten my promise to Harry below, my comment was that > mv^2/r for the satellite can be thought of as a centrifugal force or as a > centripetal acceleration times mass depending on the frame (it changes sign > while going from the F side to the m*a side), but not as a centripetal force > as you had put it. The centripetal force here is gravity of course. Let m be the mass satellite and M the mass of the earth. You can only use mv^2/r in the frame where the Earth is stationary. If you are allowed to use it in the frame where the satellite is stationary then logically one could argue the satellite is able exert force on the Earth of Mv^2/r, which is absurd. Working with some aspects of a theory and ignoring others may prove productive for a while, but sooner or later you need to owe up to logic. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 13:18:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25LI2Ma020214; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:18:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25LI109020201; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:18:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:18:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tuA2LunGA8God0K2kZ5XI9Nzii3yhJ2g2Pv/BFZfxYOtCmYRgflh3PjGSLvNxtz0TSM5QmVkebNccHB3S6sgMKFvNcE5M0nzrpSuPVepZ+JQL4H8h7QXFe1yPj6+Khsvwbr5YOFh1gZ/UsO/4RVD3v7WCh7C/kqkJy2kZ3/fid4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YtjRrZatzV0vtp8ITeb4/9eYyyEw2Iir5dyYQW8Gw0CP2qvBzEsSixrW1gWbERgvaFDnkzKTYZUpmamCPXUtB784nihVtoov6oswbYqGcQ1dDP1vSdVgWeInVpL04wWTvYlfes56Jx2hX5UCbDUxjN5UprDwRGqwB4ozGcFPvq4= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:17:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-Reply-To: <017101c75f5f$10ab1d90$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <06f901c75d89$a38a48c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <017101c75f5f$10ab1d90$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73448 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But he seems to have installed it in a bell jar. Whence the ions? On 3/5/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > Borbas believes like many amateur physicists before him that he has disproved the ion wind explanation, it's a long story he has been multiposting/spamming several dozens of mailing lists with his uninformed theory. He doesn't even realize that the air discharge implies an ion current, which implies neutrals entrainment i.e. ion wind, this pretty well sums it up. > > Michel > > P.S. Oh yes I had forgotten my promise to Harry below, my comment was that mv^2/r for the satellite can be thought of as a centrifugal force or as a centripetal acceleration times mass depending on the frame (it changes sign while going from the F side to the m*a side), but not as a centripetal force as you had put it. The centripetal force here is gravity of course. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame > > > > This guy puts his electrodes inside ping pong balls: > > > > http://bmiklos2000.freeweb.hu/unipolar.htm > > > > Terry > > > > On 3/3/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > >> > >> > >> Unshackle and release the prisoner... > >> > >> 2W * 'kV/mm' * 'grams' = 2W * .9 * 100000 = 180000 W = 180 kW > >> > >> > >> Harry > >> > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > >> > I will only comment when you'll have released the power consumed by the 100kg > >> > lifter ;-) > >> > > >> > Michel > >> > >> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 15:47:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25Nleae027599; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:47:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25NlcL5027584; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:47:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:47:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07a001c75f80$efd980d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <06f901c75d89$a38a48c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <017101c75f5f$10ab1d90$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:49:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l25NlWKP027550 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73449 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As far as I can tell he couldn't run below a certain pressure, ask him for more details if you're interested, I am not. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame > But he seems to have installed it in a bell jar. Whence the ions? > > > > On 3/5/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> Borbas believes like many amateur physicists before him that he has disproved the ion wind explanation, it's a long story he has been multiposting/spamming several dozens of mailing lists with his uninformed theory. He doesn't even realize that the air discharge implies an ion current, which implies neutrals entrainment i.e. ion wind, this pretty well sums it up. >> >> Michel >> >> P.S. Oh yes I had forgotten my promise to Harry below, my comment was that mv^2/r for the satellite can be thought of as a centrifugal force or as a centripetal acceleration times mass depending on the frame (it changes sign while going from the F side to the m*a side), but not as a centripetal force as you had put it. The centripetal force here is gravity of course. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Terry Blanton" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:14 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame >> >> >> > This guy puts his electrodes inside ping pong balls: >> > >> > http://bmiklos2000.freeweb.hu/unipolar.htm >> > >> > Terry >> > >> > On 3/3/07, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Unshackle and release the prisoner... >> >> >> >> 2W * 'kV/mm' * 'grams' = 2W * .9 * 100000 = 180000 W = 180 kW >> >> >> >> >> >> Harry >> >> >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >> >> > I will only comment when you'll have released the power consumed by the 100kg >> >> > lifter ;-) >> >> > >> >> > Michel >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 15:51:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l25Noi3N026639; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:50:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l25Noe77026582; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:50:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:50:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07a301c75f81$5d2d7ab0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45EC7889.3070409@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:52:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l25NoYc3026477 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73450 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: > Actually, Michel, no one was fooled Wrong Jones, at least one person was: myself, between the moment I imagined the scheme and the moment I realized it couldn't work :/ After that admittedly it was hard to sound convincing :) BTW your challenge/riddle beats me, can the thing be made OU after all? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:07 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > Michel Jullian wrote: > > >>> My scheme simply can NOT work as I realized before I even posted it, because >>> the absolute max efficiency of a heat pump, which depends only on the absolute >>> temperatures of the hot and cold sources, is exactly equal to one over the >>> absolute max efficiency of a heat engine working with the same temperature >>> sources (the formulae derive from the W and Q formula Ron gave), so that if >>> you increase one you decrease the other, and when you multiply the two the >>> very best you can get is a global COP of... 1. ;-( > > > Actually, Michel, no one was fooled by your ruse for a nanosecond, as I > am sure that you must realize but nevertheless, it is interesting to > continue the thread to its logical ending ... > > ...which is this: what you have stated above in not necessarily true: > i.e "when you multiply the two the very best you can get is a global COP > of 1" ... as you have neglected a very important point. > > So let me challenge you: can you find the fault in your own logic? > > Hint: this will involve expanding the formula outside of its local frame > into a larger frame of reference .... somewhat as a microcosm of the > differences between SR and GR. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 17:00:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l260xrRC003754; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:59:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l260xoUs003729; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:59:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:59:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Message-Info: ER/f+90+afe/F+1/2614127816075 X-Message-Info: OYMA+%ND_LC_CHAR[1-3]401+l+BAI+038/8003565383893 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 19:58:10 -0500 Message-Id: <16049863987.55275@Leon@chello.se> From: Leon Bates To: Vent-users-request MIME-Version: 1.0 (produced by latitudinalconfide 7.7) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--1288505725900497178" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73451 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Join best company and get best job! Salary paid weekly! Status: O X-Status: ----1288505725900497178 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-7478-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Description: impend defunct quince "AlexEscrow" company searching for hard working person. Age 21 and older, Vacancy: finance administrator (male and female) , salary: 2400-2500 USD per week. Period: 3 years and more. Demands: hard working person, education - any basic. Good in math., finance calculations. Location: USA, Europe. You will work in your city, no trips, no relocation. To get more details, send your CV and info according this email: alexescrowus@aol.com Regards Alex Benetti, finance coordinator. ----1288505725900497178-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 18:23:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l262NUxP031108; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:23:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l262NScb031085; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:23:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:23:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:24:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame In-reply-to: <07a001c75f80$efd980d0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73452 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> On 3/5/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Borbas believes like many amateur physicists before him that he has >>> disproved the ion wind explanation, it's a long story he has been >>> multiposting/spamming several dozens of mailing lists with his uninformed >>> theory. He doesn't even realize that the air discharge implies an ion >>> current, which implies neutrals entrainment i.e. ion wind, this pretty well >>> sums it up. It is not clear in what direction the ion wind is headed. The ion wind appears to be directed to wires at the centre of rotation. If that is the case, how could such a wind force the balls to rotate? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 19:46:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l263kLZN019967; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:46:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l263kJxL019944; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:46:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:46:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:45:23 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73453 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ambient heat in power out Status: O X-Status: On a nanometer scale thermal properties are not uniform even if the micro and larger scale temperature is uniform. There are emergent thermal gradients and differences on a nanometer scale scale. Therefore the Second Law is true but subverted if using nano meter scale differentiation is easier than finding it, a condition that 2LoT supporters are not willing to grant. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 19:48:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l263mdp5022029; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:48:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l263maun022003; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:48:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:48:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 03:47:49 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73454 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ambient IR lenses or mirrors Status: RO X-Status: I have not believed that mirrors or lenses could concentrate ambient IR because optical systems exchanges working angle for magnification, a situation that doesn't lend to preferential energy transfer. If experiments have worked anyway, please share the results. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 20:59:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l264xcM5023447; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:59:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l264xbfK023433; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:59:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:59:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45ECF534.30009@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:59:32 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <004201c75f2c$bb89f9d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004201c75f2c$bb89f9d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_IiBu.A.FuF.4UP7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73455 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > > End of discussion. You are irrational and brainwashed. Well that seems to end the discussion rather thoroughly. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 5 22:16:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l266Ftos029471; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:15:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l266FrLC029429; Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:15:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 22:15:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:16:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-reply-to: <004201c75f2c$bb89f9d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73456 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > If E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted > to energy during nuclear binding, nuclear fission reactions should create a > vast cold implosion, not a vast hot explosion. It depends on where they are on the periodic table. Elements with an atomic number greater than iron will release energy when undergoing _fission_. Elements with an atomic number less than iron will release energy when undergoing _fusion_. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 00:05:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26857eW018150; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:05:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l268550d018082; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:05:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 00:05:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <083301c75fc6$7081b320$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:07:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l26853Zn017958 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73457 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ambient heat in, power out Status: O X-Status: Hi Charlie, There should be no 2LoT supporters or deniers in science, only people who think and are capable of admitting they may be wrong occasionally. What you and Paul say is true, at molecular scales there are indeed thermal gradients, bouncing basketballs as Paul calls them. I'll ask you the same question I asked him, have you done a comprehensive study of the 'Brownian ratchet' vs 'Brownian motor' question M. Brown? A quick Google search shows contradictory informations as to whether they work or not, the general idea being that Brownian ratchets can't work whereas Brownian motors can, and do. Do you have more info on this? -- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles M. Brown" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:45 AM Subject: [Vo]: Ambient heat in power out > On a nanometer scale thermal properties are not uniform > even if the micro and larger scale temperature is uniform. > There are emergent thermal gradients and differences on a > nanometer scale scale. Therefore the Second Law is true > but subverted if using nano meter scale differentiation is > easier than finding it, a condition that 2LoT supporters > are not willing to grant. > > Aloha, > > Charlie > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 01:14:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l269EYnA026066; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:14:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l269EVUO026055; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:14:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:14:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <084101c75fd0$24808ff0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:16:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l269ETDu026029 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73458 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry is right of course. Have you never studied high school level nuclear physics David? Look up the atomic masses! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty > David Thomson wrote: > >> If E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted >> to energy during nuclear binding, nuclear fission reactions should create a >> vast cold implosion, not a vast hot explosion. > > It depends on where they are on the periodic table. Elements with an atomic > number greater than iron will release energy when undergoing _fission_. > Elements with an atomic number less than iron will release energy when > undergoing _fusion_. > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 03:44:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26BhrO4017393; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:43:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26BhpQt017381; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:43:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:43:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:43:06 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73459 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification Status: O X-Status: Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet wheel. The spring biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical pressure on the gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the wrong way where it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. If the pawl is then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel moves a little the wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, than the wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel moves a little the right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, then the pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near the sharp slope. If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they do not have to be biased by springs because the probability is high, and increases exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least one pawl of a similar position group will be in position to block counter rotation of the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave like a larger scale mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power levels. I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the Second Law. Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design doesn't prove that a better design won't work. Classical treatment of Feynman's ratchet: http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/Groups/parrondo/ratchet.html Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 05:01:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26D1daX012295; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:01:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26D1YYh012269; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:01:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:01:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:01:11 -0600 Message-ID: <003301c75fef$8cf3d140$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdft0ElHwzqLGVqSluK1eqHU/KZGwANzVtA Resent-Message-ID: <03BT2D.A.p_C.uYW7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73460 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Harry, >> If E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted >> to energy during nuclear binding, nuclear fission reactions should >> create a vast cold implosion, not a vast hot explosion. > It depends on where they are on the periodic table. Elements with an atomic number greater than iron will release energy when undergoing _fission_. Elements with an atomic number less than iron will release energy when undergoing _fusion_. Another irrational argument. I know what fusion and fission are. Perhaps you don't realize that fission is a physics process, regardless of what element it refers to, and the same with fusion? Forget which elements are fizzing and which are fusing. If mass is converted to energy when subatomic particles are binding (fusion), then when they unbind (fission) energy should be converted back to mass, at least that is the case if E=mc^2 means energy is equivalent to mass. You can't have mass being converted to energy in both cases. That is one of the many fallacies of mass energy equivalence theory. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 05:03:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26D2pFM012995; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:02:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26D2nQJ012981; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:02:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:02:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:02:24 -0600 Message-ID: <003401c75fef$b8f64c00$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <084101c75fd0$24808ff0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdf0D3r86x97niMQNSw7ucXJ0VRLAAH0vrw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73461 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michel, > Harry is right of course. Have you never studied high school level nuclear physics David? Look up the atomic masses! You are confused about your own gender, let alone can you follow a physics discussion. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 06:18:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26EHsc3008714; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:17:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26EHpjZ008694; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:17:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:17:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i15wUIFhVoJ8zjefKu7zuP0YJIT1gY/OVzKt4Dh8BlIEEkdR2FVzXAqX+/vcNnAc57IeA7b3frSARjjdSJMS9HEPI64bTKIN3OroXKEQ1j/ZwJhf04vYA3yxmjhtRTqG/pExyPjqIsY47cwS5TNCTn5bZhL9+UrJtTErnWAlMeY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=SrAkideWF5H82cR/gPtjcO216P//v0jkIBMLtGA2yCshqgkiuW4zIdBu13I9WFDWTlbUD4w9TYlidBFzvZ+FJl+n3Jim7vFW6/bn+tyd6VFjxfY3xNr9nifPagVlYWxPRSx95T1Ne5RtXCh8TN/LHsaFiZJnA5n/lW80VN419Z0= Message-ID: <45ED77FC.4080006@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:17:32 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7GPLSC.A.uHC.PgX7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73462 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles M. Brown wrote: > On a nanometer scale thermal properties are not uniform even if the > micro and larger scale temperature is uniform. There are emergent > thermal gradients and differences on a nanometer scale scale. Therefore > the Second Law is true but subverted if using nano meter scale > differentiation is easier than finding it, a condition that 2LoT > supporters are not willing to grant. > Aloha, > > Charlie There's no single interpretation of the 2nd law. You will find most physicists claim out right you *cannot* remove energy from ambient temperature in a closed and temperature controlled environment. What you describe as "nano scale thermal gradients" is properly termed heat. You can use the best temperature stabilizing equipment in the world and you'll still have thermal voltage noise in according to the equation V = sqrt(4 K T R df). Your description of "nano scale thermal gradients" is like calling vibrating air molecules "sound." Yes, if one wanted they could refer such heat as "sound," but it's not the proper name. Again, those interested in the concept of an appreciably small device extracting kilowatts of usable continuous energy even in complete darkness please consider. There is no reason to sit on this type of research for years. A highly motivated individual should be able to get ***something*** going. Please, this line of research desperately needs as many people as possible. Hopefully someone can help or work with Charles Brown or you could work by yourself. Global "free energy" is vitally important. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 06:18:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26EIZcl009239; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:18:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26EIWW3009212; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:18:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:18:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45ED7832.7000608@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:18:26 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) References: <45EC4D12.9000307@pacbell.net> <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73463 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > OK thanks Jones, Ron et al. I could have gone on and on like this, > describing encouraging experimental results maybe, raising millions > perhaps, but I'll put an end to my little joke, which was in reality > a challenge to the group's thermodynamics skills, nothing against the > two of you as I hope you will understand. > > My scheme simply can NOT work as I realized before I even posted it, > because the absolute max efficiency of a heat pump, which depends > only on the absolute temperatures of the hot and cold sources, is > exactly equal to one over the absolute max efficiency of a heat > engine working with the same temperature sources (the formulae derive > from the W and Q formula Ron gave), so that if you increase one you > decrease the other, and when you multiply the two the very best you > can get is a global COP of... 1. ;-( Since thermodynamics in general, and the second law in particular, are constructed using the behavior of heat pumps and heat engines, it should come as no surprise that heat pumps follow the second law exactly -- the second law is, in some sense, just a mathematical description of a heat pump. If there are violations of the second law waiting to be employed, I think we can be reasonably sure they won't use either heat pumps or heat engines as their "prime movers". From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 06:41:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26Ef0U9022251; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:41:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26EevNZ022220; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:40:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:40:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BtbrZNAmsRQ8G4HIjfmUTHy0ZZCXDmDftp1RpdwqgwKlq6JPvMOGvqMIlKE0UQfGsvR1URREagY0CKrMjHyXRpuDhVW10pONVox03AkFDjs8+gFyaryRUTorIatvN5zulLzdP01RjWrBwlKYbUkYzY1ywdYRviwdrwC7WWJoI+A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JoEn/+P1KD+MSEWD3KJrK6dwOZOP0BbOZvrO1t8lrDkIQjd4Kvk5c7Xk+vPYeGI90F+N/8wX/x+aK5Qo3pKv7Vq6Wc4eE/7kf8C94QqQceS7a+6IFRaiWtrZlaOQkybdbhjDSj+QPiofeX7I0F5BMVYGLPJku9TLxUl3OH9z3zI= Message-ID: <45ED7D69.3080702@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:40:41 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ambient IR lenses or mirrors References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73464 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles M. Brown wrote: > I have not believed that mirrors or lenses could concentrate ambient IR > because optical systems exchanges working angle for magnification, a > situation that doesn't lend to preferential energy transfer. If > experiments have worked anyway, please share the results. > > Aloha, > > Charlie > Please contact me if you are serious about this and I'll find the guy at overunity.com that provided experiments to demonstrate this simple fact. This would take some of my time to find the resources. Therefore I normally ask the person to give their word they will spend appreciable time studying and performing the experiments. You might want to get a thermal gun (hopefully with 0.1 F or better resolution), which is best for this type of research since it directly measures the amount of FIR radiation emitting from an area. Last year I bought a great IR thermal gun on sale for $35. Yesterday I bought a pocket version on sale at Harbor Freight for $10. :-) In a closed and temperature stabilized environment you will find a temperature gradient in various locations around a parabolic shape. Last year I created a wiki on T-rays read --> http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Intro http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Dew_Point_Exp http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:PaulL:Thermodynamics tools: http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Blackbody_Calc references: http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_References Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 06:44:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26EiKnt024755; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:44:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26EiIgQ024732; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:44:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:44:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ai4f0DveN018SE0EeT+ubuU9CBB/kyn5u4+dyPbOCUDubMte/BdDRHfaYPXsnIiuTnDBSJNcxS0zrocZw0I/Hp/pvZSrw45KNos6K7mbOYrH7Su4zkun5V6lQBXkSy82GVM0KRqp5zegE7TiHry/osjNn4qJSbxAQQARQVP2dUs= ; X-YMail-OSG: RV9r8SkVM1n2bkpoGt65rfNjOl6mIFlqyRJAwNo7uD_ki2dTq_2t872TKibu3Ah6s_XEHoeHVpDEZ99IploPN19Nw9.HTOo0bMH0zHmTqA7yN4Byj.iTY3CNmjDipGQ7TxQwG9GtpC0dSY4- Message-ID: <45ED7E40.1050201@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:44:16 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45EC4D12.9000307@pacbell.net> <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45ED7832.7000608@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45ED7832.7000608@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73465 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: Stephen > If there are violations of the second law waiting to be employed, I > think we can be reasonably sure they won't use either heat pumps or heat > engines as their "prime movers". Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think what you meant to say was: "If there are violations of the second law waiting to be employed, I think we can be reasonably sure they must employ an operational methodology which may benefit from - but does not depend solely on - the physics of heat pumps or heat engines as the "prime mover". Jones And even then, as many have posters have been stating for years, it would be wise to leave the LoT completely out of these discussions, as there are too many ways in which those laws can be interpreted (or salvaged) for them to be meaningful in any helpful way to an experimenter. Like you-know-who - they are what they are - but can NEVER really be invalidated, as they are re-interpretable in so many semantic ways. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 06:49:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26EnDne006582; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:49:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26EnB60006568; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:49:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:49:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45ED7F64.6060201@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:49:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73466 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles M. Brown wrote: > Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet wheel. The spring > biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical pressure on the > gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the wrong way where > it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. If the pawl is > then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel moves a little the > wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, than the > wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel moves a little the > right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, then the > pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near the sharp slope. > If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they do not have to be > biased by springs because the probability is high, and increases > exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least one pawl of a > similar position group will be in position to block counter rotation of > the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave like a larger scale > mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power levels. > > I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the Second Law. > Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design doesn't prove > that a better design won't work. Indeed, you can't prove a theorem with examples, no matter how many examples you have; using an example can only serve to disprove it (if the example happens to violate it). One of my big flops in school was thermo -- I dropped the course at the point where the textbook presented a "proof" of something or other which I simply could not follow. As far as I could see the proof didn't prove anything -- and when I asked about it during the next lecture, well, that's when I found out the professor was /deaf/. There I was, sitting in the hall, in a front row seat, with the prof struggling to hear my question -- he walked over to stand right in front of my chair with his hand cupped around his ear and had me repeat it, really loud, for about the fourth time -- with 200 other students sitting in stunned silence in back of me. Finally the prof went back up to the board and answered the wrong question 'cause he never had managed to hear what I was asking. And so I filled out a drop slip and sold the textbook and never did really learn the subject, beyond Feynman's brief treatment in his physics lectures. > Classical treatment of Feynman's ratchet: > > http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/Groups/parrondo/ratchet.html > > Aloha, > > Charlie > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 06:56:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26EumYK004646; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:56:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26EukJ2004631; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KjD8fJp0g7ZnCpvvqtV9JylRcAciy8fwprq7FUD8gflQ1yJfai/re0eJN+xhy7BICvTqmu2klUUBSvOVwfto3SA8FEoc6GFTKosVZ/NBWKfcUCLJE5CuqOa29ZZYlALIliGRCmGKU928T1w5q2W7H+qUyKZReUgc0Psvk4fbNHQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ko88Zrw3gB7wEA5QqSZa9B70vJHSjIkahDfeF8dZ7E7753ACqlZwWHr4bolBYCztqscc3175oABbrm1yuxB9a2TKoS4mmQnT6kHD33fbzdI/yXNNc3httZKgo9jwJLNNeG3XfY9jiOlinXJoIen5OMTKlk7xUgSz2OAkLkHfBpY= Message-ID: <45ED8122.1050403@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:56:34 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73467 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles M. Brown wrote: > Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet wheel. The spring > biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical pressure on the > gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the wrong way where > it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. If the pawl is > then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel moves a little the > wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, than the > wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel moves a little the > right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, then the > pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near the sharp slope. > If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they do not have to be > biased by springs because the probability is high, and increases > exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least one pawl of a > similar position group will be in position to block counter rotation of > the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave like a larger scale > mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power levels. > > I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the Second Law. > Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design doesn't prove > that a better design won't work. > Classical treatment of Feynman's ratchet: > > http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/Groups/parrondo/ratchet.html > > Aloha, > > Charlie > > First of all, the ratchet would have to be mounted on a stable solid surface for the purpose of collecting energy from gas molecules. Then collisions from *air* molecules would provide the energy. I would tend to agree with your assertion about Feynman, but what do you expect. The man did not need a world of hurt. Anyone in mainstream physics was plummeted when even insinuating the 2nd law is flawed. One thing for certain, and is fairly well known in this area of physics, and that is ***You Don't Touch the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!!!*** Corporations and Universities are paranoid about reputation. They cannot afford or take the chance of supporting such a person. The odds of a physicist with Feynmans stature attempting to blow holes in the 2nd law are practically zero. My 2 cents. :) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 06:58:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26EwD8W006330; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:58:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26EwBmk006293; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:58:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:58:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eDr+V/IIjVc4/MhlsSnsi2Bq7VBRObldAiZz4pCnoy6LOD5tPE49+IFG2lZDkw9l/ho3AHbRaGeYUdLfBnsgpGtY95FrHQiXNuqHvLSPow462HoF3978wDnucGeCHph4LeErd/VhSKV/DoRj02K8Y0VUlT6WMR22W847itzquz8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Zsz/bqjqnRRj7h8SImaMN2LNAqkq2az+yX7igVo5hbE4qia1ECaYN8qJUrfcvw1RRIC5dOCP9nybxqfjs1qByYBzHtJkT+OFnmk8F7bpGpUFm6FKZfXlhU9SK8KEx1+H4z2ymPspCoLgQOXDsYk4Smw6F20fGm4pzI/vHRVHUTA= Message-ID: <45ED8177.5080901@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:57:59 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification References: <45ED7F64.6060201@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45ED7F64.6060201@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73468 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Charles M. Brown wrote: >> Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet wheel. The spring >> biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical pressure on >> the gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the wrong way >> where it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. If the >> pawl is then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel moves a >> little the wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, >> than the wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel moves a >> little the right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, >> then the pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near the >> sharp slope. >> If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they do not have to >> be biased by springs because the probability is high, and increases >> exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least one pawl of a >> similar position group will be in position to block counter rotation >> of the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave like a larger >> scale mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power levels. >> >> I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the Second Law. >> Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design doesn't prove >> that a better design won't work. > > Indeed, you can't prove a theorem with examples, no matter how many > examples you have; using an example can only serve to disprove it (if > the example happens to violate it). > > One of my big flops in school was thermo -- I dropped the course at the > point where the textbook presented a "proof" of something or other which > I simply could not follow. As far as I could see the proof didn't prove > anything -- and when I asked about it during the next lecture, well, > that's when I found out the professor was /deaf/. There I was, sitting > in the hall, in a front row seat, with the prof struggling to hear my > question -- he walked over to stand right in front of my chair with his > hand cupped around his ear and had me repeat it, really loud, for about > the fourth time -- with 200 other students sitting in stunned silence in > back of me. Finally the prof went back up to the board and answered the > wrong question 'cause he never had managed to hear what I was asking. > > And so I filled out a drop slip and sold the textbook and never did > really learn the subject, beyond Feynman's brief treatment in his > physics lectures. > > >> Classical treatment of Feynman's ratchet: >> >> http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/Groups/parrondo/ratchet.html >> >> Aloha, >> >> Charlie >> > > Was the teacher just playing with you so he did not have to answer your question regarding proof? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 07:06:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26F6DOS013956; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:06:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26F6BpJ013927; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:06:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:06:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45ED835E.5060209@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:06:06 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> <45EC3CE1.2080104@gmail.com> <45EC575A.2060306@gmail.com> <016301c75f5a$6962b380$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <016301c75f5a$6962b380$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73469 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > I'll agree with Paul for once, LTSpice is truly excellent, not only > free but also one of the most accurate and fastest Spice > implementations around. A must have for anyone involved in EE. > Graphical interface a bit surprising at first, but quite efficient > when you get used to it. Well thanks to both of you (Michel & Paul) for the pointer. I've been using an ancient free demo version of MicroSim which is no longer maintained (I think the company went out of business). Could definitely use something better; I'll give LTSpice a try. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 07:24:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26FO3F8019945; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:24:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26FO0Bj019883; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:24:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:24:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45ED878C.2050207@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:23:56 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: lifter in a accelerating frame References: <45E63F5C.5040107@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73470 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > On 3/1/07, *Stephen A. Lawrence* > wrote: > > Harry Veeder wrote: > If any divergence between inertial and gravitational mass is > ever found, however small it may be, it will be a an enormous blow to > the validity of GR, because it will imply that gravity is /not/ a > fictitious force, after all. > > > > Many experiments have shown differences. I had never heard of such -- what I'd read was that the Eotvos experiments, which seem to be the main class of "fall speed" tests (named for the first researcher to try hard to find a difference), had all shown that inertial mass and gravitational mass matched. If that's not true, that's very interesting. > > Magnets in repulsion drop slower. Where did you read this? Can you provide a reference? (This is one I have not heard of.) > Some materials fall at different rates. > Bismuth was one IIRC, Carbon is another, for instance a carbon sphere > and an iron sphere of equal mass will fall at different rates in an > atmosphere, the carbon one will fall faster despite being less > aerodynamic due to the much larger size! Fall speed in an atmosphere doesn't seem very apposite. The issue isn't how it interacts with the air, after all. > > Gyroscopes fall at a different rate. I don't think so -- if so, then what happens when the Hubble spins up a new gyroscope? Does it change orbits? But "I don't think so" isn't a proof of anything. So, can you provide a reference for this one? Where did you run across it? Do spinning gyroscopes fall faster or slower than their inertial mass would lead one to expect? > > But the largest effect is magnets in (I think always) repulsion which > many have shown to fall much slower, as much as 1/3rd slower. Again, I'd love to see a reference on that. > I think I also recall mass under compression falls at a different rate. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 07:30:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26FU7aq000777; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:30:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26FSxsr032328; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:28:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:28:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:28:04 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <5qnMPD.A.04H.6iY7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73471 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: nano 2LoT Status: O X-Status: I want to explain that the temperature uniformaty used in simple mathematical models of heat is not true, that equipment that can stabilize temperatutes on a micrometer or larger scale will have little effect on the kTB thermal energy of the electrons in a single small electronic component or similar thermal kinetic energy in a gas molecule. The energy of the gas molecule has a clear direction as if it was boiled from where it was and will condense where it is going. The next step is to be able to use these nanometer scale properties of heat. I believe that a diode will rectify thermal electrical noise (Johnson noise) and that a group of diodes in consistant alignment parallel will aggregate the net rectified remnent of all the diodes into useful amounts of electrical power. Do people mind if I change the subject title to summerize the immediate discussion? Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 07:47:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26Fl1u5014114; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:47:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26FkxjO014094; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:46:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 07:46:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45ED8CEE.5090509@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:46:54 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification References: <45ED7F64.6060201@pobox.com> <45ED8177.5080901@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45ED8177.5080901@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73472 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > > > Charles M. Brown wrote: > >> Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet wheel. The spring > >> biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical pressure on > >> the gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the wrong way > >> where it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. If the > >> pawl is then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel moves a > >> little the wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, > >> than the wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel moves a > >> little the right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, > >> then the pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near the > >> sharp slope. > >> If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they do not have to > >> be biased by springs because the probability is high, and increases > >> exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least one pawl of a > >> similar position group will be in position to block counter rotation > >> of the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave like a larger > >> scale mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power levels. > >> > >> I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the Second Law. > >> Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design doesn't prove > >> that a better design won't work. > > > > Indeed, you can't prove a theorem with examples, no matter how many > > examples you have; using an example can only serve to disprove it (if > > the example happens to violate it). > > > > One of my big flops in school was thermo -- I dropped the course at the > > point where the textbook presented a "proof" of something or other which > > I simply could not follow. As far as I could see the proof didn't prove > > anything -- and when I asked about it during the next lecture, well, > > that's when I found out the professor was /deaf/. There I was, sitting > > in the hall, in a front row seat, with the prof struggling to hear my > > question -- he walked over to stand right in front of my chair with his > > hand cupped around his ear and had me repeat it, really loud, for about > > the fourth time -- with 200 other students sitting in stunned silence in > > back of me. Finally the prof went back up to the board and answered the > > wrong question 'cause he never had managed to hear what I was asking. > > > > And so I filled out a drop slip and sold the textbook and never did > > really learn the subject, beyond Feynman's brief treatment in his > > physics lectures. > > > > > >> Classical treatment of Feynman's ratchet: > >> > >> http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/Groups/parrondo/ratchet.html > >> > >> Aloha, > >> > >> Charlie > >> > > > > > > > > Was the teacher just playing with you so he did not have to answer your > question regarding proof? No, I don't think so -- he was a shaky old geezer and really was apparently almost stone deaf. I don't know why he didn't use a hearing aid. I was the first student in that class that term to ask a question during a lecture, so I was the one who got to make the big discovery. (Or maybe everybody else already knew, which is why there were never any questions...) In any case the fact that I didn't understand the proof doesn't "prove" the theorem was false -- it just shows I didn't understand it ... However, with 20/20 hindsight I think it's very likely the /textbook/ was wrong, and the proof may very well have been broken, whether or not the theorem was correct. I was a callow youth and hadn't yet learned that most textbooks are crawling with errors. My favorite tale of a text with errors took place in analysis class. We were struggling with a professor's book notes rather than a real textbook (professors love to torture their students with drafts of their nascent textbooks). We were working through the "book" one chapter at a time, and each week, in recitation section, the TA's would hand out a thin sheaf of pages containing the /corrections/ to that week's chapter. Well, one week we all filed into the room, and there was this big stack of papers sitting on the TA's desk, and when they start handing out the corrections, they're handing us each a stack of paper a half inch thick. And then they asked us all to _hand_ _in_ the original version of chapter for that week -- they wanted it back; they were replacing it, in its entirety! It seems the prof had "proved" a false lemma at the very start of the chapter, and used it throughout the chapter to prove everything else. Not surprisingly, the replacement chapter was rather longer than the original; assuming something that's false tends to make all your proofs quite a bit shorter. As it happens that particular (rather wretched) book never made it into print, and we could all have saved a lot of pain by using some standard text instead. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 08:35:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26GZJDT027443; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:35:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26GZHAd027426; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:35:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:35:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45ED9841.2090704@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:35:13 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) References: <45EC4D12.9000307@pacbell.net> <011d01c75f4f$8c7bfee0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45ED7832.7000608@pobox.com> <45ED7E40.1050201@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45ED7E40.1050201@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73473 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Stephen > >> If there are violations of the second law waiting to be employed, I >> think we can be reasonably sure they won't use either heat pumps or >> heat engines as their "prime movers". > > Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think what you meant to say was: > > "If there are violations of the second law waiting to be employed, I > think we can be reasonably sure they must employ an operational > methodology which may benefit from - but does not depend solely on - the > physics of heat pumps or heat engines as the "prime mover". Uh, yeah, I think that's what I meant. Anyhow the point was that the derivations of the second law that I've seen start with a mathematical model of a heat pump. Consequently, if 2LoT applies to _anything_, it surely applies to heat pumps! As with classical magnetism versus magnetic motors, if you're looking for OU behavior in heat pumps, you're looking for a flaw in the model -- in other words, you're looking for a demonstration that the model and reality don't agree. As such, mathematical modeling to plan the experiments is unlikely to be of much value, as the models used are exactly the models which predict that you can't win by using that approach. > > Jones > > And even then, as many have posters have been stating for years, it > would be wise to leave the LoT completely out of these discussions, as > there are too many ways in which those laws can be interpreted (or > salvaged) for them to be meaningful in any helpful way to an experimenter. > > Like you-know-who - they are what they are - but can NEVER really be > invalidated, as they are re-interpretable in so many semantic ways. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 09:07:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26H74ng016714; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:07:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26H71cn016678; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:07:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:07:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <08ca01c76012$24932790$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45ED7D69.3080702@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ambient IR lenses or mirrors Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:08:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l26H6xEA016612 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73474 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Silly questions, have you made sure there was no heat source (such as yourself) in the room? Are the walls of the room at the same temperature as the air? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ambient IR lenses or mirrors > Charles M. Brown wrote: > > I have not believed that mirrors or lenses could concentrate ambient IR > > because optical systems exchanges working angle for magnification, a > > situation that doesn't lend to preferential energy transfer. If > > experiments have worked anyway, please share the results. > > > > Aloha, > > > > Charlie > > > > > > Please contact me if you are serious about this and I'll find the guy at > overunity.com that provided experiments to demonstrate this simple fact. This > would take some of my time to find the resources. Therefore I normally ask the > person to give their word they will spend appreciable time studying and > performing the experiments. > > You might want to get a thermal gun (hopefully with 0.1 F or better resolution), > which is best for this type of research since it directly measures the amount of > FIR radiation emitting from an area. Last year I bought a great IR thermal gun > on sale for $35. Yesterday I bought a pocket version on sale at Harbor Freight > for $10. :-) In a closed and temperature stabilized environment you will find > a temperature gradient in various locations around a parabolic shape. > > Last year I created a wiki on T-rays read --> > > http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Intro > > http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Dew_Point_Exp > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:PaulL:Thermodynamics > > tools: > http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Blackbody_Calc > > references: > http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_References > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 09:19:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26HJgLd021333; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:19:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26HJfZK021317; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:19:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:19:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <08d801c76013$eb11dcd0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45EC30D9.6020409@gmail.com> <45EC3CE1.2080104@gmail.com> <45EC575A.2060306@gmail.com> <016301c75f5a$6962b380$3800a8c0@zothan> <45ED835E.5060209@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:20:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l26HJd4x021291 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73475 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You're welcome, you'll find it here (ltspice/switchercad III) http://www.linear.com/company/software.jsp the help file is remarkable too BTW, and if you need a human's help there is a very helpful ltspice yahoogroup you can subscribe to. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > > > Michel Jullian wrote: >> I'll agree with Paul for once, LTSpice is truly excellent, not only >> free but also one of the most accurate and fastest Spice >> implementations around. A must have for anyone involved in EE. >> Graphical interface a bit surprising at first, but quite efficient >> when you get used to it. > > Well thanks to both of you (Michel & Paul) for the pointer. > > I've been using an ancient free demo version of MicroSim which is no > longer maintained (I think the company went out of business). Could > definitely use something better; I'll give LTSpice a try. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 09:47:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26HlbTY006277; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:47:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26HlacV006269; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:47:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:47:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <08f101c76017$cd950c00$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:49:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l26HlV48006226 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73476 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: nano 2LoT Status: O X-Status: You do this all the time, why do you ask? lol FWIW: I have the feeling your posts always come as new posts, when in fact it is sometimes clear from the context that they are replies. In such cases, if this is not deliberate, whatever your email software, I encourage you to use the "reply" button when you're replying to someone's post, rather than creating a new post (which unduly starts a new vortex topic every time, bad for the archive and for your colisters). Also when you want to change the subject line when replying it's a good idea to append "was: (initial subject)" to the new subject. Also when you reply please quote at least some of the post you're replying to (there must be a setting for that in your software) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles M. Brown" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: [Vo]: nano 2LoT > > > I want to explain that the temperature uniformaty used in > simple mathematical models of heat is not true, that > equipment that can stabilize temperatutes on a micrometer > or larger scale will have little effect on the kTB thermal > energy of the electrons in a single small electronic > component or similar thermal kinetic energy in a gas > molecule. The energy of the gas molecule has a clear > direction as if it was boiled from where it was and will > condense where it is going. The next step is to be able to > use these nanometer scale properties of heat. I believe > that a diode will rectify thermal electrical noise > (Johnson noise) and that a group of diodes in consistant > alignment parallel will aggregate the net rectified > remnent of all the diodes into useful amounts of > electrical power. > > Do people mind if I change the subject title to summerize > the immediate discussion? > > Aloha, > > Charlie > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 10:01:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26I1VPi013649; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:01:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26I1VYa013638; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:01:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:01:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <090101c76019$c19e62a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45ED7F64.6060201@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:03:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l26I1TfH013622 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73477 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At first sight multiple pawls would seem to go around the "bug" in feynmann's original ratchet indeed, but it remains to be verified (a simple 80's video game like 2D simulation with classical bouncing balls in the two boxes might do the trick). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification > > > Charles M. Brown wrote: >> Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet wheel. The spring >> biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical pressure on the >> gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the wrong way where >> it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. If the pawl is >> then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel moves a little the >> wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, than the >> wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel moves a little the >> right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, then the >> pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near the sharp slope. >> If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they do not have to be >> biased by springs because the probability is high, and increases >> exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least one pawl of a >> similar position group will be in position to block counter rotation of >> the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave like a larger scale >> mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power levels. >> >> I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the Second Law. >> Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design doesn't prove >> that a better design won't work. > > Indeed, you can't prove a theorem with examples, no matter how many > examples you have; using an example can only serve to disprove it (if > the example happens to violate it). > > One of my big flops in school was thermo -- I dropped the course at the > point where the textbook presented a "proof" of something or other which > I simply could not follow. As far as I could see the proof didn't prove > anything -- and when I asked about it during the next lecture, well, > that's when I found out the professor was /deaf/. There I was, sitting > in the hall, in a front row seat, with the prof struggling to hear my > question -- he walked over to stand right in front of my chair with his > hand cupped around his ear and had me repeat it, really loud, for about > the fourth time -- with 200 other students sitting in stunned silence in > back of me. Finally the prof went back up to the board and answered the > wrong question 'cause he never had managed to hear what I was asking. > > And so I filled out a drop slip and sold the textbook and never did > really learn the subject, beyond Feynman's brief treatment in his > physics lectures. > > >> Classical treatment of Feynman's ratchet: >> >> http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/Groups/parrondo/ratchet.html >> >> Aloha, >> >> Charlie >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 12:46:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26KkXUm013453; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:46:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26KkWdu013443; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:46:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:46:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EDD321.3090106@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:46:25 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73478 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: lightballs on US Capitol Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; Pat Bailey just sent me some emails. One proports to show a UFO landing on the US Capitol building, what I see is a ball of light. Then there is the upcoming C to C AM interview of Michael of www.theyfly.com . He mentions the website www.gaiaguys.net , which is weird by Thomas Malloy standards. Full emails are available on request. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 12:54:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26KrowX018539; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:53:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26Krm0d018524; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:53:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:53:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:54:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-reply-to: <003301c75fef$8cf3d140$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73479 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Harry, > >>> If E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted >>> to energy during nuclear binding, nuclear fission reactions should >>> create a vast cold implosion, not a vast hot explosion. > >> It depends on where they are on the periodic table. Elements with an > atomic number greater than iron will release energy when undergoing > _fission_. Elements with an atomic number less than iron will release > energy when undergoing _fusion_. > > Another irrational argument. I know what fusion and fission are. Perhaps > you don't realize that fission is a physics process, regardless of what > element it refers to, and the same with fusion? I did not claim otherwise. > Forget which elements are fizzing and which are fusing. If mass is > converted to energy when subatomic particles are binding (fusion), then when > they unbind (fission) energy should be converted back to mass, at least that > is the case if E=mc^2 means energy is equivalent to mass. This is the case for elements below iron. When a helium nucleus is split into two hydrogen nuclei the total mass of the separated hydrogen nuclei is greater than the mass of the initial helium atom. For elements above iron a split reduces the total mass. > You can't have > mass being converted to energy in both cases. That is one of the many > fallacies of mass energy equivalence theory. > SR may be intuitively displeasing, but source of the displeasure is in you and not in the mathematics of SR. This is not to say you should ignore your intuition and accept SR as factually true. After all you are part of the universe and if you feel yourself misrepresented in the dominant picture of the universe you have a right to modify that picture. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 13:34:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26LYDrB010300; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:34:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26LYBD2010290; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:34:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:34:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:33:45 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c76037$29393030$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AcdgMehH7/ZGXgEpTpGwqEjhj0f1qgAAoHHA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <2Naw9B.A.ugC.S5d7FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73480 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Harry, >>>> If E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted >>>> to energy during nuclear binding, nuclear fission reactions should >>>> create a vast cold implosion, not a vast hot explosion. > >>> It depends on where they are on the periodic table. >> Another irrational argument. I know what fusion and fission are. >> Perhaps you don't realize that fission is a physics process, regardless >> of what element it refers to, and the same with fusion? > I did not claim otherwise. Can you not read your own writing? You said, "It depends on where they are on the periodic table." Either you tried to befuddle the conversation by changing the subject, or you didn't realize the difference between a physics process and objects to which the physics processes occur. > SR may be intuitively displeasing, but source of the displeasure is in you and not in the mathematics of SR. Now you are going to try to turn away from science and turn to psychological profiling? Why can't you stick with the science? It is very clear that E=mc^2 is not an equation and that all theories that use this "equation" must have no foundation. Stephen boldly stated he wanted a rational mathematical proof that SR was wrong. I gave him one, and he gave up on rational discussion and science and started name-calling. Now you are turning to psychological profiling. Isn't that how it always goes when discussing Special Relativity? The theory cannot be defended except by character assassination of the people who question it. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 14:30:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26MUWZL031029; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:30:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26MUUN2031002; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:30:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:30:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EDEB82.8070609@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:30:26 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000001c76037$29393030$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <000001c76037$29393030$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <79S1iD.A.WkH.Gue7FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73481 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Harry, > >>>>> If E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted >>>>> to energy during nuclear binding, nuclear fission reactions should >>>>> create a vast cold implosion, not a vast hot explosion. >>>> It depends on where they are on the periodic table. > >>> Another irrational argument. I know what fusion and fission are. >>> Perhaps you don't realize that fission is a physics process, regardless >>> of what element it refers to, and the same with fusion? > >> I did not claim otherwise. > > Can you not read your own writing? You said, "It depends on where they are > on the periodic table." Either you tried to befuddle the conversation by > changing the subject, or you didn't realize the difference between a physics > process and objects to which the physics processes occur. > >> SR may be intuitively displeasing, but source of the displeasure is in you > and not in the mathematics of SR. > > Now you are going to try to turn away from science and turn to psychological > profiling? Why can't you stick with the science? It is very clear that > E=mc^2 is not an equation and that all theories that use this "equation" > must have no foundation. > > Stephen boldly stated he wanted a rational mathematical proof that SR was > wrong. I gave him one, and he gave up on rational discussion and science > and started name-calling. Excuse me. For the record, you accused me of having SR as my "religion", after which I observed that "cranks" always seem to say that in relativity discussions, which is true. Go back and check the post. I didn't say "You are a crank". I said "cranks" (are you one?) always seem to resort to claiming people who "believe in" relativity have it as their "religion". That is hardly "resorting to name calling" on my part, rather it's a defense against an ad hominem attack from you, and any time spent checking the science newsgroups (e.g., sci.physics.relativity) will confirm that what I said about "cranks" is true! Before that, I said your arguments didn't seem to make sense (at least to me). It's a bit harsh, but is that "name calling"? Not by normal standards. It is, rather, an invitation for you to go over your arguments in greater detail, step by step, and prove that they really do make sense. And then, rather than expand, rephrase, or defend your mathematical arguments, YOU said _I_ was "irrational and brainwashed", and said it was the "end of the discussion". And, indeed, that response from you ended any "discussion" with _you_ as far as I'm concerned. By the way, an "ad hominem" attack is against the person rather than the arguments. That is what you did. I attacked your _arguments_, and you attacked _me_. So let's get this straight: YOU resorted to name calling. YOU resorted to an ad hominem attack. YOU ended the discussion. YOU kicked over the chessboard, which implicitly forfeits the game. Apologize for calling me "irrational and brainwashed", and we can continue the discussion, if you like. I had additional comments and questions about your mathematical statements but after reading your assertion that I'm "irrational and brainwashed" I dumped them in drafts and sent the one-line reply I actually posted, confirming the end of the argument. But it's YOUR decision to end it -- YOU said "End of discussion" and called _me_ irrational ... not the other way around. And, unless I'm sadly mistaken, by resorting to insults directed at me and my person, not my arguments, you are in violation of the rules of this email group. > Now you are turning to psychological profiling. > > Isn't that how it always goes when discussing Special Relativity? The > theory cannot be defended except by character assassination of the people > who question it. > > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 14:42:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26MgVrH013383; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:42:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26MgTd8013339; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:42:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:42:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BcrS1k7miKj/5HS4p2qdcbJMoCLfAAbvlTJMliu+lY/YIWheAoyimC/iD9iKURbBNhWqFnKXcE8Fsog/YEz9RKkDMXPsVZESHvZGzDiXCV9qHk0nAGS9pH2QqdfbV6jGt1Vi6fxJjLJvvGpbCmlOVclOj4rjhBNpIP5g1/wWSdk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=W5vxCS2HbsOUzd+J66VGNK1fOOin7ZY0MDwhnfYB/zgSL3EReaCJmQH+vMIkOCJjIsG5Ovqwvax2JfGwhpMug9piBEdeLRjCCkT9eozs1eJEHOjURNttstqKqCDy231yIbyZ8tLdBhZulM7NXDBIfqwu1uWXI72vnjmNQFurKVA= Message-ID: <45EDEE46.9090904@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:42:14 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ambient IR lenses or mirrors References: <45ED7D69.3080702@gmail.com> <08ca01c76012$24932790$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <08ca01c76012$24932790$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73482 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > Silly questions, have you made sure there was no heat source (such as yourself) in the room? Are the walls of the room at the same temperature as the air? --- There's always the possibility, as those particular experiments were not meticulously performed. One of these days I'll have to spend more time on it. Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lowrance" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:40 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ambient IR lenses or mirrors > > >> Charles M. Brown wrote: >>> I have not believed that mirrors or lenses could concentrate ambient IR >>> because optical systems exchanges working angle for magnification, a >>> situation that doesn't lend to preferential energy transfer. If >>> experiments have worked anyway, please share the results. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Charlie >>> >> >> >> Please contact me if you are serious about this and I'll find the guy at >> overunity.com that provided experiments to demonstrate this simple fact. This >> would take some of my time to find the resources. Therefore I normally ask the >> person to give their word they will spend appreciable time studying and >> performing the experiments. >> >> You might want to get a thermal gun (hopefully with 0.1 F or better resolution), >> which is best for this type of research since it directly measures the amount of >> FIR radiation emitting from an area. Last year I bought a great IR thermal gun >> on sale for $35. Yesterday I bought a pocket version on sale at Harbor Freight >> for $10. :-) In a closed and temperature stabilized environment you will find >> a temperature gradient in various locations around a parabolic shape. >> >> Last year I created a wiki on T-rays read --> >> >> http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Intro >> >> http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Dew_Point_Exp >> >> http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:PaulL:Thermodynamics >> >> tools: >> http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_Blackbody_Calc >> >> references: >> http://emwiki.info/T-ray_Energy_Mover_References >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 14:57:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26Muqet007626; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:56:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26MuoX3007607; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:56:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:56:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "DonW" To: Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:57:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c76042$d2af99a0$0202a8c0@donw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l26Mum5R007582 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73483 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles Status: O X-Status: Just found this on a Google News Alert for: Cold Fusion: http://www.springerlink.com/content/75p4572645025112/?p=36faf43185bd4180b239 1cb40c4031e7&pi=1 -DonW- Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles. Journal Naturwissenschaften Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg ISSN 0028-1042 (Print) 1432-1904 (Online) Subject Biomedical and Life Sciences, Chemistry and Materials Science and Earth and Environmental Science Category Short Communication DOI 10.1007/s00114-007-0221-7 SpringerLink Date Thursday, February 15, 2007 Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles Stanislaw Szpak1, Pamela A. Mosier-Boss1  and Frank E. Gordon1 (1)  Space and Naval Warfare (SPAWAR) Systems Center San Diego, San Diego, CA 92152-5001, USA Received: 5 September 2006  Revised: 20 December 2006  Accepted: 2 January 2007  Published online: 15 February 2007 Abstract  Almost two decades ago, Fleischmann and Pons reported excess enthalpy generation in the negatively polarized Pd/D-D2O system, which they attributed to nuclear reactions. In the months and years that followed, other manifestations of nuclear activities in this system were observed, viz. tritium and helium production and transmutation of elements. In this report, we present additional evidence, namely, the emission of highly energetic charged particles emitted from the Pd/D electrode when this system is placed in either an external electrostatic or magnetostatic field. The density of tracks registered by a CR-39 detector was found to be of a magnitude that provides undisputable evidence of their nuclear origin. The experiments were reproducible. A model based upon electron capture is proposed to explain the reaction products observed in the Pd/D-D2O system. Pamela A. Mosier-Boss Email: pam.boss@navy.mil From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 15:06:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l26N6YnG030070; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:06:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l26N6XKP030043; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:06:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:06:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:06:10 -0600 Message-ID: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: <45EDEB82.8070609@pobox.com> Thread-Index: AcdgP3EYUbQCvE9jQ9Kanj2KtFQdegAASdGA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73484 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, Why do these discussions always have to end like this? > Excuse me. For the record, you accused me of having SR as my "religion", after which I observed that "cranks" always seem to say that in relativity discussions, which is true. Go back and check the post. On March 5, after writing many snide remarks to me in your reply and providing arguments unrelated to the discussion at hand, you responded: >> Now I have just presented you with rock solid fatal flaws in >> Einstein's mass/energy equivalence theory. There was no equation to >> begin with, and even when the so-called E=mc^2 equation is used to >> explain mass deficit, it predicts the opposite of what we are told. > Not as far as I can see -- you asserted it does, but your assertion is senseless, as far as I can see. Without pointing out any error in my mathematical analysis of E=mc^2 you told me that my assertion was senseless. Doesn't that count as name calling? It certainly isn't rational or logical. > I didn't say "You are a crank". I said "cranks" (are you one?) always seem to resort to claiming people who "believe in" relativity have it as their "religion". Actually, it went like this: >> And if you choose to believe in SR, then the discussion has degraded >> from one of science to one of religion and I will not violate your >> right to freedom of religion. > That's how the cranks always end it -- SR is your religion, you must > be just taking it all on faith because nobody could understand it. I clearly said nothing of the sort about SR being your religion. I said that the discussion was degraded to a religious discussion once you gave up on the mathematical analysis I presented on E=mc^2. Science involves math and data, religion relies on defending unquantified personal beliefs, such as ignoring the science and degrading my scientifically presented argument as a "senseless assertion." > That is hardly "resorting to name calling" on my part, rather it's a defense against an ad hominem attack from you, and any time spent checking the science newsgroups (e.g., sci.physics.relativity) will confirm that what I said about "cranks" is true! Now that is a senseless assertion! Once again, you resort to name calling because you can't defend E=mc^2 as an equation. Without E=mc^2 being an equation, everything based upon the treatment of E=mc^2 as an equation is built upon nothing. Will you never give up on your ad hominem attacks and denying you are doing it? > And then, rather than expand, rephrase, or defend your mathematical arguments, YOU said _I_ was "irrational and brainwashed", and said it was the "end of the discussion". And, indeed, that response from you ended any "discussion" with _you_ as far as I'm concerned. Actually, you ended the discussion when you said, "That's how the cranks always end it -- SR is your religion..." I merely agreed with you that if you have gotten to the point of name-calling and ignoring the science, then the discussion had indeed ended. > By the way, an "ad hominem" attack is against the person rather than the arguments. That is what you did. I attacked your _arguments_, and you attacked _me_. You are so full of yourself. Go back and read everything carefully. > Apologize for calling me "irrational and brainwashed", and we can continue the discussion, if you like. Your whole message was full of snide remarks and evading the topic on hand. Then you call me names and deny you did it, even though it is clearly in writing, and further you accuse me of saying things that are not in writing. > But it's YOUR decision to end it -- YOU said "End of discussion" and called _me_ irrational ... not the other way around. If you read what was actually written, you would see that you have, indeed, been irrational. That is not a personal opinion, but a statement of fact. > And, unless I'm sadly mistaken, by resorting to insults directed at me and my person, not my arguments, you are in violation of the rules of this email group. You called me a crank in two different posts, now. Where does that put you? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 16:56:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l270ulA8003979; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:56:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l270uF69003875; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:56:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:56:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0a7501c76053$b2b35e00$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45EC7889.3070409@pacbell.net> <07a301c75f81$5d2d7ab0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 01:57:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l270uDMf003854 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73485 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: Oh I forgot again, could a "Jones readable" Vo reply to this so he gets it? Thanks. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 12:52 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) >> Actually, Michel, no one was fooled > > Wrong Jones, at least one person was: myself, between the moment I imagined the scheme and the moment I realized it couldn't work :/ After that admittedly it was hard to sound convincing :) > > BTW your challenge/riddle beats me, can the thing be made OU after all? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jones Beene" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:07 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>>> My scheme simply can NOT work as I realized before I even posted it, because >>>> the absolute max efficiency of a heat pump, which depends only on the absolute >>>> temperatures of the hot and cold sources, is exactly equal to one over the >>>> absolute max efficiency of a heat engine working with the same temperature >>>> sources (the formulae derive from the W and Q formula Ron gave), so that if >>>> you increase one you decrease the other, and when you multiply the two the >>>> very best you can get is a global COP of... 1. ;-( >> >> >> Actually, Michel, no one was fooled by your ruse for a nanosecond, as I >> am sure that you must realize but nevertheless, it is interesting to >> continue the thread to its logical ending ... >> >> ...which is this: what you have stated above in not necessarily true: >> i.e "when you multiply the two the very best you can get is a global COP >> of 1" ... as you have neglected a very important point. >> >> So let me challenge you: can you find the fault in your own logic? >> >> Hint: this will involve expanding the formula outside of its local frame >> into a larger frame of reference .... somewhat as a microcosm of the >> differences between SR and GR. >> >> Jones >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 17:15:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l271Ena7026734; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:14:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l271El4q026719; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:14:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:14:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0a8801c76056$4961f940$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45ED7F64.6060201@pobox.com> <090101c76019$c19e62a0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 02:16:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l271Ejkw026696 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73486 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Or, even more simply, _experiment_ with macro size bouncing balls and a macro size multiple pawl ratchet wheel, and shake the solidarized boxes randomly to see if you can get the axle between the two boxes to rotate consistently in the right direction. This should give a correct yes/no qualitative result shouldn't it? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification > At first sight multiple pawls would seem to go around the "bug" in feynmann's original ratchet indeed, but it remains to be verified (a simple 80's video game like 2D simulation with classical bouncing balls in the two boxes might do the trick). > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification > > >> >> >> Charles M. Brown wrote: >>> Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet wheel. The spring >>> biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical pressure on the >>> gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the wrong way where >>> it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. If the pawl is >>> then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel moves a little the >>> wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, than the >>> wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel moves a little the >>> right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, then the >>> pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near the sharp slope. >>> If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they do not have to be >>> biased by springs because the probability is high, and increases >>> exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least one pawl of a >>> similar position group will be in position to block counter rotation of >>> the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave like a larger scale >>> mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power levels. >>> >>> I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the Second Law. >>> Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design doesn't prove >>> that a better design won't work. >> >> Indeed, you can't prove a theorem with examples, no matter how many >> examples you have; using an example can only serve to disprove it (if >> the example happens to violate it). >> >> One of my big flops in school was thermo -- I dropped the course at the >> point where the textbook presented a "proof" of something or other which >> I simply could not follow. As far as I could see the proof didn't prove >> anything -- and when I asked about it during the next lecture, well, >> that's when I found out the professor was /deaf/. There I was, sitting >> in the hall, in a front row seat, with the prof struggling to hear my >> question -- he walked over to stand right in front of my chair with his >> hand cupped around his ear and had me repeat it, really loud, for about >> the fourth time -- with 200 other students sitting in stunned silence in >> back of me. Finally the prof went back up to the board and answered the >> wrong question 'cause he never had managed to hear what I was asking. >> >> And so I filled out a drop slip and sold the textbook and never did >> really learn the subject, beyond Feynman's brief treatment in his >> physics lectures. >> >> >>> Classical treatment of Feynman's ratchet: >>> >>> http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/Groups/parrondo/ratchet.html >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Charlie >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 17:37:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l271bDff004309; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:37:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l271bBgG004281; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:37:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:37:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 01:36:19 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a8801c76056$4961f940$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <3F9dz.A.0CB.Hdh7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73487 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps a stepped frame video where random numbers are used to select realistic alterations to the parts of a model between frames would be appropriate. Can I talk myself or anyone else into it? On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 02:16:51 +0100 "Michel Jullian" wrote: >Or, even more simply, _experiment_ with macro size >bouncing balls and a macro size multiple pawl ratchet >wheel, and shake the solidarized boxes randomly to see if >you can get the axle between the two boxes to rotate >consistently in the right direction. > >This should give a correct yes/no qualitative result >shouldn't it? > >Michel > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michel Jullian" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 7:03 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification > > >> At first sight multiple pawls would seem to go around >>the "bug" in feynmann's original ratchet indeed, but it >>remains to be verified (a simple 80's video game like 2D >>simulation with classical bouncing balls in the two boxes >>might do the trick). >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:49 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational >>rectification >> >> >>> >>> >>> Charles M. Brown wrote: >>>> Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet >>>>wheel. The spring >>>> biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical >>>>pressure on the >>>> gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the >>>>wrong way where >>>> it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. >>>>If the pawl is >>>> then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel >>>>moves a little the >>>> wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the >>>>time, than the >>>> wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel >>>>moves a little the >>>> right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the >>>>time, then the >>>> pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near >>>>the sharp slope. >>>> If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they >>>>do not have to be >>>> biased by springs because the probability is high, and >>>>increases >>>> exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least >>>>one pawl of a >>>> similar position group will be in position to block >>>>counter rotation of >>>> the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave >>>>like a larger scale >>>> mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power >>>>levels. >>>> >>>> I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the >>>>Second Law. >>>> Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design >>>>doesn't prove >>>> that a better design won't work. snip Aloha From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 18:13:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l272DSTl027868; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:13:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l272DRrE027851; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:13:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:13:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=MNKhgTMww1bh9WMxiY5135pQkdqnk2Xd0s1eQf/U4l1IGAIs3t9L71p2SO7aCgDLFiTKMeE4i8Gse9OPM4DT+xbWrevT2r1vn2cfyX3l+3zhOvSZvd6/tsCHe7wejp7QJINTkGsSmu9fsGtlKtslQ2H+HjrDpbiF8rzyu/zfsYk=; X-YMail-OSG: J3JfXoMVM1kPByPGWfrK42ey9ey3PyUHXwXwy58z8Ev8IKkOMrXfttsMvAP.FZ28kVR_umE0.odSHqdcQJBHMiP._iNsgZ3a20awxv7eEnNQPVcdMOMsljQ5H2IzXqbDUG31L6K7q7edPY0- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/368.8 YahooMailWebService/0.6.132.8 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:13:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l272DQcN027826 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73488 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ---- From: DonW >Just found this on a Google News Alert for: Cold Fusion: http://www.springerlink.com/content/75p4572645025112/?p=36faf43185bd4180b2391cb40c4031e7&pi=1 This paper must be the same one, or an update of the same R&D reported by Steve Krivit in "New Energy Times" recently. The long version of the paper is available from LENR/CANR http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBossthermaland.pdf However the main thing which may be new - or if not new, not well covered elsewhere --may be their model of the reaction based upon "electron capture," and if anyone is up-to-speed on the details of this model, I hope that they will post their thoughts - as this is not a subject which is well understood ... especially if you have tried to wade through the Zhang paper and others. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 18:38:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l272cR5q014256; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:38:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l272cP7Y014222; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:38:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:38:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EE259C.4030703@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:38:20 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73489 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sure enough, no apology. Too bad. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 19:04:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2733or1019509; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:03:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2733ncq019496; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:03:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:03:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EE2B91.2060302@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:03:45 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2CSSLC.A.kwE.Uui7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73490 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Stephen, > [ ... ] > > You called me a crank in two different posts, now. Sigh... OK, you're right, at the very least I insinuated it pretty strongly... I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry I called you a crank, and if you don't assert that my religion must be SR if I don't immediately grasp your arguments, I promise I won't do it again. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 19:07:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2737p7C021746; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:07:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2737nQe021718; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:07:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:07:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c76065$cb4cf450$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 21:07:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73491 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote, >However the main thing which may be new - or if not new, not well covered >elsewhere --may be their model of the reaction >based upon "electron >capture" Howdy Jones, Never cease to be surprised at your insight. You may consider that some of your posts are most revealing which may give more insight into some of your work than you would wish at this time. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 19:11:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l273BPUQ024322; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:11:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l273BOOP024300; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:11:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 19:11:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [124.191.197.234] X-Originating-Email: [dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <45EDD321.3090106@usfamily.net> From: "Dean McGowan" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: lightballs on US Capitol Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:11:20 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2007 03:11:23.0694 (UTC) FILETIME=[495A64E0:01C76066] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73492 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, Please forward a copy to me Regards, Dean ----Original Message Follows---- From: thomas malloy Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: lightballs on US Capitol Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:46:25 -0600 Vortexians; Pat Bailey just sent me some emails. One proports to show a UFO landing on the US Capitol building, what I see is a ball of light. Then there is the upcoming C to C AM interview of Michael of www.theyfly.com . He mentions the website www.gaiaguys.net , which is weird by Thomas Malloy standards. Full emails are available on request. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 20:17:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l274HVRF027617; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:17:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l274HS2C027595; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:17:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:17:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EE3CD3.30302@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 23:17:23 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles References: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8ERoaD.A.HvG.Xzj7FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73493 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ---- From: DonW > > >> Just found this on a Google News Alert for: Cold Fusion: > http://www.springerlink.com/content/75p4572645025112/?p=36faf43185bd4180b2391cb40c4031e7&pi=1 > > > > This paper must be the same one, or an update of the same R&D > reported by Steve Krivit in "New Energy Times" recently. The long > version of the paper is available from LENR/CANR > http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBossthermaland.pdf I don't think they're the same paper. The titles are different, and the MosierBossthermaland.pdf appears to be a review paper covering old work (it's also 125 pages long so I'm not going to pretend I just read through the whole thing tonight). The abstract for the new paper says they have a new result which sounds really exciting. Just to reiterate what Don already posted, it says, among other things: > The density of tracks registered by a CR-39 detector was found to be > of a magnitude that provides undisputable evidence of their nuclear > origin. The experiments were reproducible. This sounds really fabulous. (I love that word, "reproducible".) It sure doesn't sound like they're just chewing over decades-old evidence! It's $32 to purchase the full document online, and being a cheapskate I'm going to wait and see if it shows up somewhere for free before I spring for it... > > However the main thing which may be new - or if not new, not well > covered elsewhere --may be their model of the reaction based upon > "electron capture," and if anyone is up-to-speed on the details of > this model, I hope that they will post their thoughts - as this is > not a subject which is well understood ... especially if you have > tried to wade through the Zhang paper and others. > > Jones > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 20:23:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l274Nk8B029603; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:23:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l274Njml029586; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:23:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:23:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=h7SmS05ntlx42CgxmhBQ8pslO6jvXGsnuaTrhg920u+FO72ewfBbUAw9tJJV3qdDMxBLl6GYnK5c2QG0ji/LrzxpBsCoRLvSiemIv4W2vgy0viHs67RQ/hHllTQrSTx0+CFXPUBGpDVze9aIwo4TEkSCOERs4NunEinOnSaSMkg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Kojog7MzmriJMjYeZb4vzm0Uqaolv6LPGhOfVNB2F+4+hsTGJY+BwfVaNqjZrijFUYc9Klq3ow3LAkWUlSlfxSV462d5Q8xKhmI5gQcgG+HOnSQbPA5nF+Vza2dbmulxQD0Od/j9trOMv+MzcNVWPTEg9SN6smCmuc4CNreXAkM= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:23:43 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45EE2B91.2060302@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_184931_3066457.1173241423149" References: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45EE2B91.2060302@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73494 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_184931_3066457.1173241423149 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The heart of the matter is this. Even is SR & GR weren't flawed, even if there were no experiments which showed it to be incorrect (there are quite a few) it is still a fact that aether theory had no reason to be dropped as there is no evidence against a fluid aether (a stationary one is illogical at the outset as galixies are flying apart and is well disproven) and even Einstein said there was one. Funny that, the MMX shows the result that M & M expected which was that there is an aether drift, Enstein submitted a theory that allowed one to look at this without an aether and then went on to say that only a fool wouldn't think there is an aether and that's the basis of it being cast aside??? isn't that a tad curious? And yet you basically consider that anyone who believe in it or questions SR/GR to be a crank. I consider anyone willing to cast aside the best most logical and evidence supported theory (which has no evidence against it unlike SR) without even giving it consideration a crank, On 3/7/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > David Thomson wrote: > > Hi Stephen, > > > [ ... ] > > > > You called me a crank in two different posts, now. > > Sigh... OK, you're right, at the very least I insinuated it pretty > strongly... I shouldn't have done that. > > I'm sorry I called you a crank, and if you don't assert that my religion > must be SR if I don't immediately grasp your arguments, I promise I > won't do it again. > > ------=_Part_184931_3066457.1173241423149 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The heart of the matter is this.
Even is SR & GR weren't flawed, even if there were no experiments which showed it to be incorrect (there are quite a few) it is still a fact that aether theory had no reason to be dropped as there is no evidence against a fluid aether (a stationary one is illogical at the outset as galixies are flying apart and is well disproven) and even Einstein said there was one.

Funny that, the MMX shows the result that M & M expected which was that there is an aether drift, Enstein submitted a theory that allowed one to look at this without an aether and then went on to say that only a fool wouldn't think there is an aether and that's the basis of it being cast aside??? isn't that a tad curious?

And yet you basically consider that anyone who believe in it or questions SR/GR to be a crank.
I consider anyone willing to cast aside the best most logical and evidence supported theory (which has no evidence against it unlike SR) without even giving it consideration a crank,

On 3/7/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:


David Thomson wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
>
[ ... ]
>
> You called me a crank in two different posts, now.

Sigh... OK, you're right, at the very least I insinuated it pretty
strongly... I shouldn't have done that.

I'm sorry I called you a crank, and if you don't assert that my religion
must be SR if I don't immediately grasp your arguments, I promise I
won't do it again.


------=_Part_184931_3066457.1173241423149-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 20:46:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l274kfR1006786; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:46:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l274kbLN006766; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:46:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:46:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 23:47:24 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-reply-to: <000001c76037$29393030$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73495 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Harry, > >>>>> If E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted >>>>> to energy during nuclear binding, nuclear fission reactions should >>>>> create a vast cold implosion, not a vast hot explosion. >> >>>> It depends on where they are on the periodic table. > >>> Another irrational argument. I know what fusion and fission are. >>> Perhaps you don't realize that fission is a physics process, regardless >>> of what element it refers to, and the same with fusion? > >> I did not claim otherwise. > > Can you not read your own writing? You said, "It depends on where they are > on the periodic table." Either you tried to befuddle the conversation by > changing the subject, or you didn't realize the difference between a physics > process and objects to which the physics processes occur. Selectively quoting me to make me look stupid is not fair. >> SR may be intuitively displeasing, but source of the displeasure is in you > and not in the mathematics of SR. > > Now you are going to try to turn away from science and turn to psychological > profiling? Why can't you stick with the science? It is very clear that > E=mc^2 is not an equation and that all theories that use this "equation" > must have no foundation. Is y = xa^2 not an equation? Yes, it is the equation of a straight line with slope a^2. > Stephen boldly stated he wanted a rational mathematical proof that SR was > wrong. I gave him one, and he gave up on rational discussion and science > and started name-calling. Now you are turning to psychological profiling. Relax. The basis of my psycho-analytic critique rests with me, not you. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 20:47:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l274lcYN007220; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:47:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l274lbrn007200; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:47:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:47:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 23:47:34 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5ZD-eB.A.cwB.oPk7FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73496 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Couple quick comments/questions... energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Hi, > > This email will describe the simplest (as far as I know) method of > capturing and storing ambient temperature energy. Hopefully those > wanting to reply could first read the entire email since I'll > address various possible questions later in this email. > > I was hoping at least someone would have answered my previously > posted question to nail down their stance if they believe it's > possible to capture and store energy taken from ambient > temperature. Since nobody posted his or her stance I'll just go > ahead and post the proof. This could be a fun ride, as debating > experience shows most people won't be nailed, which allows them to > weasel out of any situation, which is probably one reason there are > so many formulations of the 2nd law. There's a well-taken 2nd law > quote in the physics community by physicist P.W. Bridgman, "There > are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been > discussions of it." > > Personally it's not my present goal or interest to focus on the 2nd > law. Truthfully, there are too many 2nd law formulations, as one > physicist may adhere to a stricter interpretation than another. My > only assertion is that energy can be captured from ambient > temperature, and here is how. > > Here is a clear-cut method to demonstrate the assertion. Using a > low noise high gain amp and oscilloscope view a resistors thermal > noise. This is an extremely simple task. I would be more than happy > to provide anyone legitimately interested individual with a simple > circuits to view such noise. You will see the thermal noise voltage > fluctuating in a random unpredictable fashion. Guess what, you are > witnessing a direct conversion from ambient temperature energy to > battery storage. A capacitor stores energy in the form of electric > potential. So where's the capacitor you ask. All measuring devices > from common amps to oscilloscopes have input capacitance. 10x scope probes run around 10-15 pF, IIRC. I think a 100x probe is rather lower. Opamp inputs tend to be a lot lower, tho, but still definitely finite and large enough to have a macroscopic impact on a circuit. So, yeah, you're seeing a cap charge and discharge, alright... > If you want more capacitance than simply place a small capacitor > across the resistor. You will still see the thermal noise voltage, > but the average rms voltage amplitude will decrease. There's now a > total of 4 pF if your amp has 2 pF input and you add a 2pF across > the resistor. Lets say at a given moment you see 10 mV across the > capacitor. At that moment you could unplug the capacitor to claim > your energy. LOL, indeed it's a small amount of energy, but it is > true that you actually captured energy from ambient temperature. If > you want more energy then simply make more devices. > > Please note I am not stating this is your "smoking gun!" This is > ***MERELY*** to demonstrate the possibility, to let people know it > is indeed possible!! If you have the money and technology such as > IBM then it's possible to make trillions of such devices in a small > area. One device could be a nanometer. One hundred trillion 2 pF > capacitors at 10 mV each contains 10 mJ's of energy. If memory > holds true, the human eye in complete darkness can see a flash of > red focused light of less than 1 nJ. One 780 nm red light photon > contains just 2.5E-19 J's! > > Ten mJ's may not sound like much, but it merely demonstrates that > you can capture energy from ambient temperature. This is not the > best method of capturing ambient temperature energy, but again it > merely proves the assertion. > > Again, in the nutshell, a resistor generates thermal voltage > noise. All measuring devices from common amps to oscilloscopes to > multimeters always have a certain amount of capacitance. When you > measured that thermal noise voltage that capacitor in the measuring > device is charged to that value. You can also add your own capacitor > across the resistor. Your capacitor would be completely discharged > before you add it, but at any given moment once the capacitor is > connected to the resistor their will be a certain charged voltage on > the capacitor. At any given moment you could unplug the capacitor to > retain such energy. You could perform the same experiment with an > inductor since all measuring devices have inductance. > > What you do with such energy is your choice. One hundred 2 pF > capacitors charged to 10 mV is very usable. That's equal to a 200 > farad capacitor charged to 10 mV. You could discharge the cap > energy to an inductor followed by a quick field collapse to generate > appreciable amount of voltage across a smaller cap. Or you could > place a percentage of the caps in series to increase the voltage, > etc. etc. > > Skeptics may wonder just how much energy is required to "unplug" the > capacitor. There is no theoretical limit. Right -- if there's a fatal flaw in the scheme, the energy to unplug the capacitor is _not_ that flaw! > How much energy does it require to move a nanometer filament a > fraction of a nanometer? History demonstrates that the amount of > energy required from an electrical switch has drastically > decreased. Consider the FET, which on average has roughly 1E+12 ohms > DC resistance. Sure, the FET has capacitance, but that in itself is > stored energy. This is akin to how much energy is require to stop an > object. One might think it requires a lot pressure to stop the > object. Consider a spinning wheel next to a table. On the table is a > hollow metal tube welded to the table. To stop the spinning wheel > one merely needs to slide a metal bar in the hollow tube extending > out the other end of the hollow tube, which jams in the wheels > spokes, which abruptly stops the spinning wheel. The only amount of > energy required to stop the wheel merely depends how much energy was > required to slide the metal bar to jam the spokes. > > On many occasions I've described a device that has far higher > potential for "free energy" than the aforementioned example. The > above is to provide a simple undeniable clear-cut example. Of course > there will always be those who will deny anything that goes against > their beliefs. A more practical device that requires ***NO*** > energy such as from a switch would be my resistor and LED device. > The thermal voltage noise from the resistor will generate thermal > current in the LED. All LED's emit photos at any applied voltage. It > just turns out the LED is exponentially more efficient above the > forward voltage level. In such a device the LED would emit more > photons when connected to a resistor of high resistance. I still have some problems with this one. First, an LED typically has a large forward drop (or at least they used to, I assume that hasn't changed in the last decade or so). If there's any effect at all, most of it's going to get cut off due to that big drop. If rectifying noise is to work, I should think you'd want to use something (like a Schottky diode) with a very low forward drop. Second, nearly all your noise is very close to zero volts, and close to zero volts, diodes are close to linear. They conduct as something like I = I_s * (exp(x*v) - 1) where "x" is a constant I don't feel like writing out. This is from a book but the general form is easy enough to verify in a lab (though tedious). Very close to zero volts, this formula is very close to I = I_s * x * v or, in other words, the diode is (nearly) linear at zero volts. That suggests that it might leak really badly in an application where the signal strength is totally minute. These may just be practical concerns but it's not clear how to get past them. I don't know enough about LEDs to answer this additional question: Can an LED operate "backwards", as a solar cell? This may be a concern at very low emission rates. > > Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room temperature in > complete darkness (no solar) there are visible light photons > striking the cell. I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm common solar cell > would generate roughly 1E-30 volts. Not much voltage, lol, but > still something nonetheless. The amount of radiated blackbody > energy is small in the visible region. Although the FIR region is > another story. Both sides of a thin sheet of 1m x 1m material > radiates roughly 920 watts continuously in complete darkness at room > temperature. Technology is improving, thereby allowing photovoltaic > cells to capture lower and lower frequencies. A Canadian university > succeeded in creating a 1355 nm photovoltaic cell! That's only > 1/11th the wavelength away from the peak 15000 nm 920 watts/m^2 > blackbody 300 K radiation. BTW, blackbody radiation at 1355 nm is > 2E+18 times greater than visible region of 600 nm. To calculate this > I compared the radiation from 16667 to 16677 cm^-1, which is > 3.907E-29 watts to 7380 to 7390 cm^-1, which is 7.499e-11 watts. > > University of Toronto in Canada achieves 1355 nm photovoltaic cell: > http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/4/1/7/1 > > Eventually technology will reach the peak 15000 nm region where a > thin double sided 1m x 1m sheet receives ~920 watts. It's difficult > for a person to believe they are surrounded by a source "free > energy" because we don't see such energy with our eyes. This one still really bugs me. I don't understand solar cells well enough to know if this could work, but it just seems /wrong/ to me that a cell at the same temperature as a blackbody could generate useful electricity from the blackbody's radiation! (Even a solar cell made in Canada!) :-) Whatever... > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 22:49:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l276nPri025212; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:49:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l276nNBs025171; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:49:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:49:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 01:50:09 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification In-reply-to: <45ED8177.5080901@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73497 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> >> Charles M. Brown wrote: >>> Feynman's ratchet used one sprung pawl on a ratchet wheel. The spring >>> biases the pawl towards the ratchet wheel so mechanical pressure on >>> the gentle slope of the ratchet wheel drives the wheel the wrong way >>> where it can rest against the sharp or even overhanging slope. If the >>> pawl is then lifted by Brownian motion and the ratchet wheel moves a >>> little the wrong way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, >>> than the wheel will rotate the wrong way. If the ratchet wheel moves a >>> little the right way when the pawl is high, possible 50% of the time, >>> then the pawl will return to a low part of the gentle slope near the >>> sharp slope. >>> If there are many pawls on one ratchet wheel than they do not have to >>> be biased by springs because the probability is high, and increases >>> exponentially with the number of pawls, that at least one pawl of a >>> similar position group will be in position to block counter rotation >>> of the ratchet wheel. This type of system should behave like a larger >>> scale mechanically rectified ratchet wheel at thermal power levels. >>> >>> I don't think Feynman tried hard enough to break the Second Law. >>> Fabricating a device that fails with inadequate design doesn't prove >>> that a better design won't work. would it help if the two sides of each vane were made of different materials? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 6 23:50:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l277oDSi025825; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:50:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l277oAks025784; Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:50:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:50:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 02:50:56 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification In-reply-to: <0a8801c76056$4961f940$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73498 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > This should give a correct yes/no qualitative result shouldn't it? > > Michel Perhaps. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 00:13:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l278CkGd026369; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 00:12:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l278CiYT026339; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 00:12:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 00:12:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ae201c76090$acec8f90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:14:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l278CgR1026288 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73499 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the helpful comment :) What I meant is that experimenting with macroscopic bouncing balls in boxes should accurately model the way we _think_ the nanoscale device would work, so that if it doesn't work it is most likely that the nanoscale device won't work either. The boxes could be tied to a common plate shaked by a loudspeaker playing white noise, with the amplifier's volume setting determining the "temperature", how does that sound Charlie? (also please explain your video idea, I didn't get it) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: multiple pawl rotational rectification > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> This should give a correct yes/no qualitative result shouldn't it? >> >> Michel > > Perhaps. > ;-) > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 03:52:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27Bqmgx031327; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 03:52:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27Bqkfs031319; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 03:52:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 03:52:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cJqw1XeJabrIwsbEw00XCJNed9QqEo5zpHS3XQFVYx4m4WuKGpPwYI2FDfS0wpLapEJ/nOoLDV1Djx2Isosjb8YeIPR5o+uu4WUbS3mvoL8R+nyUftJkVZZ3TguBEUF4BKaiWozyW6nayAnX2i0qPn+u+0iNVWwz3kTFynTPqu8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CUVTena98PGDpbJEBas2ElbVhMGhut2YtBtzklNoaSweXKUhigofeh6GcAFfHcEvfayCSBHzvSa/n/7MVF29rIdlRZGOdxDGM7GUKitBbOScph5y7RJsT43CYEDDS+q2GPmramaYQv54jikPh4Pw/Oxgp0vcgXFFQkil3l5jcbs= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:52:42 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles In-Reply-To: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73500 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/6/07, Jones Beene wrote: > However the main thing which may be new - or if not new, not well covered elsewhere --may be their model of the reaction based upon "electron capture," and if anyone is up-to-speed on the details of this model, I hope that they will post their thoughts - as this is not a subject which is well understood ... especially if you have tried to wade through the Zhang paper and others. I certainly don't understand where the energy originates to overcome the coulomb force. Is it from the electrostatic/magnetostatic field? How would it "see" through the outer shell electrons? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 06:21:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27EKt5w032530; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:20:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27EKr88032523; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:20:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:20:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:20:35 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73501 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: John Berry ... > And yet you [Mr. Lawrence] basically consider that anyone who believe > in it or questions SR/GR to be a crank. I consider anyone willing to > cast aside the best most logical and evidence supported theory (which > has no evidence against it unlike SR) without even giving it > consideration a crank, Hear ye, hear ye, the honoral Judge OrionWorks is now in session. Let me see if I got this right. It has been alleged that Mr. Lawrence inferred that Mr. Berry , is a "crank." This upsets Mr. Berry and he complains about being called a "crank." When confronted, Mr. Lawrence at first denies the fact that he _personally_ called Mr. Berry a "crank". Mr Berry reveals written text (evidence) that appears to contradict Mr. Lawrence's contention that he never _personally_ called Mr. Berry a "crank." Mr. Lawrence ponders the evidence presented by Mr. Berry and eventually publicly admits to Mr. Berry that he indeed _did_ call Mr. Berry a "crank." Mr. Lawrence publicly apologies to Mr. Berry for calling him a "crank." At this point I was about award Mr. Berry the total sum of one dollar to be paid by Mr. Lawrence for restitution for Mr. Berry's personal pain and suffering for being called a "crank" by Mr. Lawrence. But before I even get a chance to hand down my sentence Mr. Berry now proceeds to infer that Mr. Lawrence is now a "crank" because he has cast aside "...the best most logical and evidence supported theory..." that this conclusion infers that Mr. Lawrence is himself a "crank", in Mr. Berry's eyes. Well, I think Mr. Berry, should now pay ME (the honorable judge OrionWorks) a dollar for having to listen to his wining. As for Mr. Lawrence, he has already paid his fine. There are precious few in this world who are capable of publicly admitting their mistakes and then make attempts to redress the situation. Here's a suggestion for Mr. Berry. In lieu of paying ME (the honorable judtge OrionWorks) a dollar I wish he would instead address his own flaws, which I would assure him he DOES possess, and instead get down to more important discussion of addressing the different scientific/theoretical perspectives that appear to exist between he and Mr. Lawrence. Good thing the honorable Judge OrionWorks is not professionally licensed judge. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 06:42:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27EfsPP022950; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:41:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27EfqtV022926; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:41:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:41:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE,MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 08:41:47 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_07d5d8377f9e0d9426d8290bc0a4a9dd" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070307144514.D2798BFDC6@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6LiuH.A.2lF.u8s7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73502 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Judge OrionWorks: Public apology to Mr. Berry Status: O X-Status: --=_07d5d8377f9e0d9426d8290bc0a4a9dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: Judge OrionWorks: Public apology to Mr. Berry The honorable judge OrionWorks has just called an emergency session. I must make a public apology to Mr. John Berry for accidentally confusing his name with that of Mr. David Thompson. Please replace Mr. "Berry" with Mr. "Thompson" with my comments below. Like I said, good think the honorable judge OrionWorks is NOT a professionally licensed judge. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com Like > From: John Berry > > ... > > > And yet you [Mr. Lawrence] basically consider that anyone who believe > > in it or questions SR/GR to be a crank. I consider anyone willing to > > cast aside the best most logical and evidence supported theory (which > > has no evidence against it unlike SR) without even giving it > > consideration a crank, > > Hear ye, hear ye, the honoral Judge OrionWorks is now in session. > > Let me see if I got this right. > > It has been alleged that Mr. Lawrence inferred that Mr. Berry , is a > "crank." > > This upsets Mr. Berry and he complains about being called a "crank." > > When confronted, Mr. Lawrence at first denies the fact that he _personally_ > called Mr. Berry a "crank". > > Mr Berry reveals written text (evidence) that appears to contradict Mr. > Lawrence's contention that he never _personally_ called Mr. Berry a "crank." > > Mr. Lawrence ponders the evidence presented by Mr. Berry and eventually > publicly admits to Mr. Berry that he indeed _did_ call Mr. Berry a "crank." > Mr. Lawrence publicly apologies to Mr. Berry for calling him a "crank." > > At this point I was about award Mr. Berry the total sum of one dollar to be > paid by Mr. Lawrence for restitution for Mr. Berry's personal pain and > suffering for being called a "crank" by Mr. Lawrence. > > But before I even get a chance to hand down my sentence Mr. Berry now > proceeds to infer that Mr. Lawrence is now a "crank" because he has cast > aside "...the best most logical and evidence supported theory..." that this > conclusion infers that Mr. Lawrence is himself a "crank", in Mr. Berry's > eyes. > > Well, I think Mr. Berry, should now pay ME (the honorable judge OrionWorks) > a dollar for having to listen to his wining. As for Mr. Lawrence, he has > already paid his fine. There are precious few in this world who are capable > of publicly admitting their mistakes and then make attempts to redress the > situation. Here's a suggestion for Mr. Berry. In lieu of paying ME (the > honorable judtge OrionWorks) a dollar I wish he would instead address his > own flaws, which I would assure him he DOES possess, and instead get down to > more important discussion of addressing the different scientific/theoretical > perspectives that appear to exist between he and Mr. Lawrence. > > Good thing the honorable Judge OrionWorks is not professionally licensed > judge. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > --=_07d5d8377f9e0d9426d8290bc0a4a9dd Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: Judge OrionWorks: Public apology to Mr. Berry

The honorable judge OrionWorks has just called an emergency session.

I must make a public apology to Mr. John Berry for accidentally confusing h= is name with that of Mr. David Thompson.

Please replace Mr. "Berry" with Mr. "Thompson" with my comments below.

Like I said, good think the honorable judge OrionWorks is NOT a professiona= lly licensed judge.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

Like

> From: John Berry
>
> ...
>
> > And yet you [Mr. Lawrence] basically consider that anyone who believe > > in it or questions SR/GR to be a crank. I consider anyone willing to > > cast aside the best most logical and evidence supported theory (which > > has no evidence against it unlike SR) without even giving it
> > consideration a crank,
>
> Hear ye, hear ye, the honoral Judge OrionWorks is now in session.
>
> Let me see if I got this right.
>
> It has been alleged that Mr. Lawrence inferred that Mr. Berry , is a
> "crank."
>
> This upsets Mr. Berry and he complains about being called a "crank."
>
> When confronted, Mr. Lawrence at first denies the fact that he _personall= y_
> called Mr. Berry a "crank".
>
> Mr Berry reveals written text (evidence) that appears to contradict Mr. > Lawrence's contention that he never _personally_ called Mr. Berry a "cran= k."
>
> Mr. Lawrence ponders the evidence presented by Mr. Berry and eventually > publicly admits to Mr. Berry that he indeed _did_ call Mr. Berry a "crank= ."
> Mr. Lawrence publicly apologies to Mr. Berry for calling him a "crank." >
> At this point I was about award Mr. Berry the total sum of one dollar to = be
> paid by Mr. Lawrence for restitution for Mr. Berry's personal pain and > suffering for being called a "crank" by Mr. Lawrence.
>
> But before I even get a chance to hand down my sentence Mr. Berry now
> proceeds to infer that Mr. Lawrence is now a "crank" because he has cast<= br /> > aside "...the best most logical and evidence supported theory..." that th= is
> conclusion infers that Mr. Lawrence is himself a "crank", in Mr. Berry's<= br /> > eyes.
>
> Well, I think Mr. Berry, should now pay ME (the honorable judge OrionWork= s)
> a dollar for having to listen to his wining. As for Mr. Lawrence, he has<= br /> > already paid his fine. There are precious few in this world who are capa= ble
> of publicly admitting their mistakes and then make attempts to redress th= e
> situation. Here's a suggestion for Mr. Berry. In lieu of paying ME (the > honorable judtge OrionWorks) a dollar I wish he would instead address his=
> own flaws, which I would assure him he DOES possess, and instead get down= to
> more important discussion of addressing the different scientific/theoreti= cal
> perspectives that appear to exist between he and Mr. Lawrence.
>
> Good thing the honorable Judge OrionWorks is not professionally licensed<= br /> > judge.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
>
>
>
--=_07d5d8377f9e0d9426d8290bc0a4a9dd-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 06:47:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27ElNdh026015; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:47:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27ElM9b025995; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:47:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:47:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EED077.9040308@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:47:19 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45EE2B91.2060302@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5bFkKD.A.HWG.5Bt7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73503 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Berry wrote: > The heart of the matter is this. > Even is SR & GR weren't flawed, even if there were no experiments which > showed it to be incorrect (there are quite a few) it is still a fact > that aether theory had no reason to be dropped as there is no evidence > against a fluid aether (a stationary one is illogical at the outset as > galixies are flying apart and is well disproven) and even Einstein said > there was one. I haven't seen that. I've heard people claim he did but I have never seen an article or quote in which Einstein actually asserted that there must be an aether. Certainly he said there was no proof that there was _not_ an aether, and he said that very early on. I don't know that quote word for word, but it was something to the effect of "Note, gentlemen, that we have not proved that there is no aether. We have merely shown that it is not necessary that there be an aether". Again, I have never seen the claimed assertion by Einstein that there must be an aether. I think you -- or someone else on this list -- said he said that around 1919. A reference would be appreciated. > > Funny that, the MMX shows the result that M & M expected which was that > there is an aether drift, According to the analyses I have read their result did _not_ show an aether drift. It was a null result, to within the precision of the experiment. So I have read in textbooks, and so I've been told by physicists who've actually worked through an error analysis of the experiment. > Enstein submitted a theory that allowed one to > look at this without an aether Not a positive result -- if it could be demonstrated conclusively that the MMX gave a positive result it would falsify SR. SR allows one to explain a negative result without resorting to an aether. Lorentz ether theory allows one to explain a negative result with the use of an ether. Take your pick. Either way, though, you'll have the same set of "paradoxes" and the same Lorentz transforms to cope with, because mechanics comes out the same in both theories. (Lorentz formulated the ether theory which explains MMX, and the transforms are called "Lorentz transforms" -- that's not a coincidence.) > and then went on to say that only a fool > wouldn't think there is an aether and that's the basis of it being cast > aside??? isn't that a tad curious? It is, if it's true. How about a reference? As I said I've never seen the article in which he said this, nor a direct quote from him to that effect, so I don't know what the context may have been. > And yet you basically consider that anyone who believe in it or > questions SR/GR to be a crank. No I don't. I consider people who refuse to learn the mathematics of a theory yet claim the theory is self-contradictory cranks, and I consider people who pretend to the existence of evidence which doesn't exist to be cranks. People who simply question theories, and decide that they don't think those theories necessarily describe reality, are not cranks. So how about you try working through the mathematics of the contradictions you think you've found in relativity, and post the results here? I mean, work them through using the Lorentz transforms. I'll be happy to argue them with you, if you'll actually work through the math rather than just blowing off the calculations and calling it all "bunk". From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 06:47:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27ElfxD026266; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:47:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27EleP3026251; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:47:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:47:21 -0600 Message-ID: <002101c760c7$8a6f0b00$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdgc+aehKi322efRH2XxrubUcXu4AATts/g Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73504 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Harry, > Is y = xa^2 not an equation? > Yes, it is the equation of a straight line with slope a^2. Of course, it is an equation. All the variables are truly variables and have the same dimension of one. Do you really think that E=mc^2 is the equation of a straight line with slope c^2? Are you implying that because y=xa^2 is an equation that p=ac^2 is an equation where p is pressure, a is acceleration, and c is the speed of light? When you arbitrarily change variables to constants and assign specific dimensions to other variables, you end up with completely different expressions. In the case where y and x are given specific dimensions, those dimensions have specific implied values, depending upon the system of units used. For example, in the MKS system of units: joule = kilogram * (meter/second)^2 You cannot then arbitrarily change the unit values for meters per second to a different value and still have an equality. Once you assign a constant to one of the variables, which is not consistent with the system of units being used, the other variables cannot maintain their dimensions within the equation. You end up with: y = xc^2 You cannot reference y as energy or x as mass. Since c was arbitrarily chosen, x and y are now also arbitrary. You would need a system of units where v^2 = c^2, such as in the Aether Physics Model's quantum measurements units, in order have a dimensional equation involving c^2. True, there are many situations that will work as though x is mass and y is energy, but it is not a mathematical certainty. Therefore, it is possible for many applications of E=mc^2 to appear to be valid, but there are also applications for where it is not. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 06:57:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27Ev4Wm032277; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:57:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27Ev2Pe032251; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:57:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:57:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:56:40 -0600 Message-ID: <002501c760c8$d88a0c80$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45EE2B91.2060302@pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdgZYv+gEQd50ucQ9m74jE/HDhZfgAYiLaQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73505 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, I don't know what your religion is. All I know is that when the discussion veers away from the math and data, it bases upon our faith in our own personal opinion. Such a discussion is indistinguishable from a religious discussion. If we stay with the science then we should have no difficulty in communication. If it gets to a point where we are cornered, we can ask for more time to investigate our argument before admitting the need to change our view. But someplace along the line the science should lead us unequivocally to the same conclusion. Are these terms fair enough? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw@pobox.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:04 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty David Thomson wrote: > Hi Stephen, > [ ... ] > > You called me a crank in two different posts, now. Sigh... OK, you're right, at the very least I insinuated it pretty strongly... I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry I called you a crank, and if you don't assert that my religion must be SR if I don't immediately grasp your arguments, I promise I won't do it again. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 07:14:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27FEEMN010574; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:14:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27FED7v010552; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:14:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:14:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EED6C0.6070707@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:14:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <002501c760c8$d88a0c80$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <002501c760c8$d88a0c80$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73506 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > I don't know what your religion is. All I know is that when the discussion > veers away from the math and data, it bases upon our faith in our own > personal opinion. Such a discussion is indistinguishable from a religious > discussion. If we stay with the science then we should have no difficulty > in communication. > > If it gets to a point where we are cornered, we can ask for more time to > investigate our argument before admitting the need to change our view. But > someplace along the line the science should lead us unequivocally to the > same conclusion. Are these terms fair enough? Sure thing. As long as you keep in mind that we will probably never actually agree! :-) We've both argued this sort of issue before, I'm sure, and you know how often one side actually convinces the other side; the best one can do is keep it polite (and I have been falling down rather badly on that score, I'm afraid). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 07:25:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27FPAvo021071; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:25:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27FP7YC021026; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:25:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:25:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:24:43 -0600 Message-ID: <003001c760cc$c3f75670$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45EED077.9040308@pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdgx+Kce84i0ZkdQTy9qtX/nfBrXAAAOzow Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73507 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, > I've heard people claim he did but I have never > seen an article or quote in which Einstein actually > asserted that there must be an aether. http://www.worldscibooks.com/phy_etextbook/4454/4454_chap1.pdf http://www.aetherometry.com/einstein_aether_and_relativity.html > According to the analyses I have read their result did _not_ show an > aether drift. It was a null result, to within the precision of the > experiment. So I have read in textbooks, and so I've been told by > physicists who've actually worked through an error analysis of the > experiment. There is not a greater display of hypocrisy than by a physicist who tells you MMX fell within the margin of error, and then brags that an SR correction is needed for the GPS system. The SR correction when compared to the ionospheric noise correction of the GPS system has a magnitude less than 1000th. The MMX result showed an Aether drift of 1/20th of what was expected for a *rigid* Aether. The fact that the Aether drift was 1/20th means it exists and that what it proved is that the Aether is not rigid, but fluid. > Not a positive result -- if it could be demonstrated conclusively that > the MMX gave a positive result it would falsify SR. This is not true. Only if the Aether were rigid and it showed a positive result would it falsify SR. A fluid Aether is fully consistent with SR as the Lorentz transformations were developed to explain a fluid Aether and also provided a bases for some of SR theory. The relative time aspects of SR are not only correct when Einstein ignored the Aether, but are also correct when we acknowledge a fluid Aether. Surely, you didn't expect the laws of physics to change just by ignoring certain facts of nature? > I consider people who refuse to learn the mathematics of a > theory yet claim the theory is self-contradictory cranks, So if you don't learn the mathematics of the Aether Physics Model and claim it is wrong that makes you a what? > and I consider > people who pretend to the existence of evidence which doesn't exist to > be cranks. And people who base their physics on a non-equation (E=mc^2) would then be what? As for the existence of Aether, the evidence is incontrovertible. Magnetic fields, electric fields, gravitational fields, particle spin, Solitons, phonons, frame dragging, and space-time are just a few proofs for the existence of Aether. What do you call someone who constantly works with Aether, and yet denies its existence? > People who simply question theories, and decide that they > don't think those theories necessarily describe reality, are not cranks. No, they would be cynics. > So how about you try working through the mathematics of the > contradictions you think you've found in relativity, and post the > results here? What good does that do? You completely ignore any math that questions the validity of SR. Remember that thing about religion you don't like? What do you call someone who believes in something so much that they will resort to irrational means to avoid discussing it if it proves them wrong? I'm not disagreeing with the Lorentzian aspect of SR, as it was developed around the concept of a fluid Aether. But the mass/energy equivalence aspect of SR, which Einstein presented in his famous paper, has no basis in mathematics. It falsifies easily. There is a better way to understand quantum physics than the mass/energy paradigm. It is the Aether/angular momentum paradigm. When we learn to see nature as it really is, rather than a bunch of abstract and counterintuitive numbers, then we can make significant progress in quantum physics. For now, Einstein's mass/energy equivalence principle is what is preventing science from fully uncovering the nature of reality. But enough of complaining about what does not work. I have discovered the correct model of quantum structure. How about looking at it and trying to understand it. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 08:37:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27GarIk016610; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:36:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27GaqCW016584; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:36:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:36:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Dm7Gg2bBuyzdWPhWrrmRwAIe0FVRgSYUfHCtbLceFb1aTQnB6B4Q+xvN+Xkovxlez93m8Nrci2e3w7ibUNJnVVuQ38ULX17Sz1r5j2ybeUmR7Mp3mTCxCYAHYPDBSnFD7XbRui+QZHg6BsoZzVufp2u+1EPbW5Ssqjb+Fkb50nU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=S9ONtZyAmRpIR1zdc/CW33WWZHDHcxHAunpbBg00PRLPMLgf+gHwuY/hkuPz6s4ReTBdeUMnXgcEqgWOjT5hHe+sp3rjCEIj3Ver9qvI001H82GP51GEw1RWY+hwtmPTrAxJMZNycjohIBHEFp3VUnX7yK8elDIwcclvz1FBGoQ= Message-ID: <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 08:36:35 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73508 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Couple quick comments/questions... > > energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > Hi, > > > > This email will describe the simplest (as far as I know) method of > > capturing and storing ambient temperature energy. Hopefully those > > wanting to reply could first read the entire email since I'll > > address various possible questions later in this email. > > > > I was hoping at least someone would have answered my previously > > posted question to nail down their stance if they believe it's > > possible to capture and store energy taken from ambient > > temperature. Since nobody posted his or her stance I'll just go > > ahead and post the proof. This could be a fun ride, as debating > > experience shows most people won't be nailed, which allows them to > > weasel out of any situation, which is probably one reason there are > > so many formulations of the 2nd law. There's a well-taken 2nd law > > quote in the physics community by physicist P.W. Bridgman, "There > > are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been > > discussions of it." > > > > Personally it's not my present goal or interest to focus on the 2nd > > law. Truthfully, there are too many 2nd law formulations, as one > > physicist may adhere to a stricter interpretation than another. My > > only assertion is that energy can be captured from ambient > > temperature, and here is how. > > > > Here is a clear-cut method to demonstrate the assertion. Using a > > low noise high gain amp and oscilloscope view a resistors thermal > > noise. This is an extremely simple task. I would be more than happy > > to provide anyone legitimately interested individual with a simple > > circuits to view such noise. You will see the thermal noise voltage > > fluctuating in a random unpredictable fashion. Guess what, you are > > witnessing a direct conversion from ambient temperature energy to > > battery storage. A capacitor stores energy in the form of electric > > potential. So where's the capacitor you ask. All measuring devices > > from common amps to oscilloscopes have input capacitance. > > 10x scope probes run around 10-15 pF, IIRC. I think a 100x probe is > rather lower. > > Opamp inputs tend to be a lot lower, tho, but still definitely finite > and large enough to have a macroscopic impact on a circuit. > > So, yeah, you're seeing a cap charge and discharge, alright... > > > > If you want more capacitance than simply place a small capacitor > > across the resistor. You will still see the thermal noise voltage, > > but the average rms voltage amplitude will decrease. There's now a > > total of 4 pF if your amp has 2 pF input and you add a 2pF across > > the resistor. Lets say at a given moment you see 10 mV across the > > capacitor. At that moment you could unplug the capacitor to claim > > your energy. LOL, indeed it's a small amount of energy, but it is > > true that you actually captured energy from ambient temperature. If > > you want more energy then simply make more devices. > > > > Please note I am not stating this is your "smoking gun!" This is > > ***MERELY*** to demonstrate the possibility, to let people know it > > is indeed possible!! If you have the money and technology such as > > IBM then it's possible to make trillions of such devices in a small > > area. One device could be a nanometer. One hundred trillion 2 pF > > capacitors at 10 mV each contains 10 mJ's of energy. If memory > > holds true, the human eye in complete darkness can see a flash of > > red focused light of less than 1 nJ. One 780 nm red light photon > > contains just 2.5E-19 J's! > > > > Ten mJ's may not sound like much, but it merely demonstrates that > > you can capture energy from ambient temperature. This is not the > > best method of capturing ambient temperature energy, but again it > > merely proves the assertion. > > > > Again, in the nutshell, a resistor generates thermal voltage > > noise. All measuring devices from common amps to oscilloscopes to > > multimeters always have a certain amount of capacitance. When you > > measured that thermal noise voltage that capacitor in the measuring > > device is charged to that value. You can also add your own capacitor > > across the resistor. Your capacitor would be completely discharged > > before you add it, but at any given moment once the capacitor is > > connected to the resistor their will be a certain charged voltage on > > the capacitor. At any given moment you could unplug the capacitor to > > retain such energy. You could perform the same experiment with an > > inductor since all measuring devices have inductance. > > > > What you do with such energy is your choice. One hundred 2 pF > > capacitors charged to 10 mV is very usable. That's equal to a 200 > > farad capacitor charged to 10 mV. You could discharge the cap > > energy to an inductor followed by a quick field collapse to generate > > appreciable amount of voltage across a smaller cap. Or you could > > place a percentage of the caps in series to increase the voltage, > > etc. etc. > > > > Skeptics may wonder just how much energy is required to "unplug" the > > capacitor. There is no theoretical limit. > > Right -- if there's a fatal flaw in the scheme, the energy to unplug > the capacitor is _not_ that flaw! > > > > How much energy does it require to move a nanometer filament a > > fraction of a nanometer? History demonstrates that the amount of > > energy required from an electrical switch has drastically > > decreased. Consider the FET, which on average has roughly 1E+12 ohms > > DC resistance. Sure, the FET has capacitance, but that in itself is > > stored energy. This is akin to how much energy is require to stop an > > object. One might think it requires a lot pressure to stop the > > object. Consider a spinning wheel next to a table. On the table is a > > hollow metal tube welded to the table. To stop the spinning wheel > > one merely needs to slide a metal bar in the hollow tube extending > > out the other end of the hollow tube, which jams in the wheels > > spokes, which abruptly stops the spinning wheel. The only amount of > > energy required to stop the wheel merely depends how much energy was > > required to slide the metal bar to jam the spokes. > > > > On many occasions I've described a device that has far higher > > potential for "free energy" than the aforementioned example. The > > above is to provide a simple undeniable clear-cut example. Of course > > there will always be those who will deny anything that goes against > > their beliefs. A more practical device that requires ***NO*** > > energy such as from a switch would be my resistor and LED device. > > The thermal voltage noise from the resistor will generate thermal > > current in the LED. All LED's emit photos at any applied voltage. It > > just turns out the LED is exponentially more efficient above the > > forward voltage level. In such a device the LED would emit more > > photons when connected to a resistor of high resistance. > > I still have some problems with this one. > > First, an LED typically has a large forward drop (or at least they > used to, I assume that hasn't changed in the last decade or so). If > there's any effect at all, most of it's going to get cut off due to > that big drop. > > If rectifying noise is to work, I should think you'd want to use > something (like a Schottky diode) with a very low forward drop. > > Second, nearly all your noise is very close to zero volts, and close > to zero volts, diodes are close to linear. They conduct as something > like I = I_s * (exp(x*v) - 1) where "x" is a constant I don't feel > like writing out. This is from a book but the general form is easy > enough to verify in a lab (though tedious). Very close to zero volts, > this formula is very close to > > I = I_s * x * v > > or, in other words, the diode is (nearly) linear at zero volts. That > suggests that it might leak really badly in an application where > the signal strength is totally minute. > > These may just be practical concerns but it's not clear how to get > past them. > > I don't know enough about LEDs to answer this additional question: Can > an LED operate "backwards", as a solar cell? This may be a concern at > very low emission rates. As you pointed out, LED's emit appreciable energy above forward voltage. Although according to real experiments and Spice sims the LED just does not suddenly go from emitting to not emitting photons. In fact, there's no magical level where an LED suddenly changes. > > > > Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room temperature in > > complete darkness (no solar) there are visible light photons > > striking the cell. I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm common solar cell > > would generate roughly 1E-30 volts. Not much voltage, lol, but > > still something nonetheless. The amount of radiated blackbody > > energy is small in the visible region. Although the FIR region is > > another story. Both sides of a thin sheet of 1m x 1m material > > radiates roughly 920 watts continuously in complete darkness at room > > temperature. Technology is improving, thereby allowing photovoltaic > > cells to capture lower and lower frequencies. A Canadian university > > succeeded in creating a 1355 nm photovoltaic cell! That's only > > 1/11th the wavelength away from the peak 15000 nm 920 watts/m^2 > > blackbody 300 K radiation. BTW, blackbody radiation at 1355 nm is > > 2E+18 times greater than visible region of 600 nm. To calculate this > > I compared the radiation from 16667 to 16677 cm^-1, which is > > 3.907E-29 watts to 7380 to 7390 cm^-1, which is 7.499e-11 watts. > > > > University of Toronto in Canada achieves 1355 nm photovoltaic cell: > > http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/4/1/7/1 > > > > Eventually technology will reach the peak 15000 nm region where a > > thin double sided 1m x 1m sheet receives ~920 watts. It's difficult > > for a person to believe they are surrounded by a source "free > > energy" because we don't see such energy with our eyes. > > This one still really bugs me. I don't understand solar cells well > enough to know if this could work, but it just seems /wrong/ to me > that a cell at the same temperature as a blackbody could generate > useful electricity from the blackbody's radiation! (Even a solar > cell made in Canada!) :-) The problem with typical visible light photovoltaic cells is there's hardly any black body radiation in the visible light spectrum. I calculated/guesstimated that such a cell would generate less than 1E-30 DC volts. On the other hand the university in Canada made a significant breakthrough in photovoltaic cells by allowing such cells efficiently absorb up to 1355 nm. Now that 1355 nm doesn't sound like much as compared to 600 nm visible light, but blackbody radiation at 1355 nm is 2E+18 times greater than at 600 nm visible light. To give an idea just how much energy is available from blackbody radiation alone --> A two sided thin sheet of material at room temperature (300K) radiates ~920 watts, which is peak at around 15000 nm. It will be very interesting when technology increases from 1355 nm 15000 nm! :-) Last week I came across a forum posting about the Canadian breakthrough, but cannot find it for the life of me. There were physicists (or at least they sounded like physicists) saying things that absolutely shocked me. Statements to the effect, "we're almost to the point of collecting continuous ambient temperature radiation." Nature's not that cruel, right? I'm mean, surely we could design a device to collect energy from a room full of bouncing basketballs. What about large molecules? What about typical air molecules? What about room temperature atoms vibrating at ~20 THz? What about vibrating electrons traveling ~1/200 c? Is there a sudden magical size where nature says, "No! These particles are off limits. You cannot have their energy!" I don't thinks so because of the simple fact that a capacitor is able to charge to a certain point due to thermal electrical noise. IMHO the task is in trying to find a design that is able to capture enough ambient temperature energy without an appreciable loss. Some realistic possibilities would include an LED array consisting of a trillion LED & R units. Or perhaps improving photovoltaic cells to reach 15000 nm's. Those methods sound complex. Truly if this was my task alone then I would first begin by learning how to create a simple diode. I already know how to use a computer to operate a circuit through the parallel port or USB. Therefore, I would design a device that allowed the computer to create micro scale diodes and resistors. Initially this may sound to complex and expensive, but I would beg to disagree. I like the old saying, "Where there's a will there's a way." Truthfully I see a clear method of extracting such ambient temperature by means of magnetic avalanches, but time will tell. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 08:56:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27Gu1Ra001325; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:56:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27GtuuL001274; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:55:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:55:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070307115242.03737c40@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:55:44 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles In-Reply-To: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73509 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > >Just found this on a Google News Alert for: Cold Fusion: >http://www.springerlink.com/content/75p4572645025112/?p=36faf43185bd4180b2391cb40c4031e7&pi=1 > >This paper must be the same one, or an update of the same R&D >reported by Steve Krivit in "New >Energy Times" recently. The long version of the paper is available >from LENR/CANR >http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBossthermaland.pdf As noted this is a different paper. This is about the R&D reported by Krivit, and now being carried out by others in the "Galileo project" (a pretentious name, I must say). See: http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm#tgp If it is okay with Pam and the publisher, I hope to upload the new paper soon. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 09:17:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27HHJ1p015993; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:17:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27HHIq8015975; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:17:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:17:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VSeIFCDIDlGUXjxHS7hYSFIKTR87rNRp2lAJ9a0UfWX0voMRpw2VSGtJnyhNkH9OKA1Gdnz/rrVloQIG2Nleln/lvAj8YzCbkqZtUzv8fLnkBvLNla9JrxBGsLLOzq4Z7cF54BOMXZGvO0V1OVpQOkbDqgiyD7xMFXOcmVJtL4o= ; X-YMail-OSG: 0t_83eQVM1kRA_BwIqZASb1GevWbsNSECHGQG2ri21p1T0szbkE4lZMyFBNMN2_.7xWb9kAATBAk7ABvN9RYAuupG_kn.A57xcvQhVEDApa49_gc1ORCpUMgp8FLPP7bi7Nz7ikw3jKM2YI- Message-ID: <45EEF398.4030505@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:17:12 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070307115242.03737c40@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070307115242.03737c40@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73510 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles Status: O X-Status: Understood. Now, would you like to take a stab at explaining the "electron capture model" ? Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> >Just found this on a Google News Alert for: Cold Fusion: >> http://www.springerlink.com/content/75p4572645025112/?p=36faf43185bd4180b2391cb40c4031e7&pi=1 >> >> >> This paper must be the same one, or an update of the same R&D reported >> by Steve Krivit in "New >> Energy Times" recently. The long version of the paper is available >> from LENR/CANR >> http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBossthermaland.pdf > > As noted this is a different paper. This is about the R&D reported by > Krivit, and now being carried out by others in the "Galileo project" (a > pretentious name, I must say). See: > > http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm > > http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/2006/NET19.htm#tgp > > If it is okay with Pam and the publisher, I hope to upload the new paper > soon. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 09:23:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27HN8b4020125; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:23:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27HN5ui020104; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:23:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:23:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EEF4ED.9040803@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:22:53 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <004201c75f2c$bb89f9d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004201c75f2c$bb89f9d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9DmXd.A.E6E.5Tv7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73511 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As I said, I had written up a reply to some things you said earlier. So, with extensive revisions, here it is. First, as an aside, I don't think Einstein originated the idea of the interchangeability of mass and energy. I have been told (by someone sort of reliable, IIRC) that there had been at least one prior published derivation, and I have the general impression that more than one person had worked on it; an open question at the time was what the coefficient should be. IIRC previous derivations had led to coefficients around (1/2)c^2, and certainly less than 1, unlike Einstein's result, which put it at exactly 1(c^2). Don't ask me for the details of the earlier work, though; I don't have them. Before I go on to reply to the points in your earlier post, I should also mention that, for all the time I spent studying relativity, I had never looked all that closely at the derivation of e=mc^2. Over the past day or so I've gone back to Einstein's papers (in Dover's "Principle of Relativity") to see how he actually did it. As much for my benefit as anyone else's, here's a capsule review, as I understand it. I don't claim this is a detailed proof itself; I'm just reviewing the high points of Einstein's derivation in simple English. You may ignore it or pick it apart, as you wish. Comments on your post begin after this summary. (In what follows, by "Electro" I mean his paper "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies"; by "Inertia" I mean his very short paper, "Does the Inertia of a Body Depend Upon its Energy Content?", both published in 1905.) In "Electro" Einstein derived the relativistic Doppler shift formula, and produced a formula to show how the intensity of an electromagnetic wave varies in different reference frames (end of section 7 -- I don't see where he got it which is why I don't say he "derived" it), and from those determined that the energy carried by a "given quantity" of light varies in different reference frames by the same formula as the relativistic Doppler shift. (This foreshadows the later conclusion that the energy of a photon goes as h*nu, of course; all that needed to be added were the quantization of light, and the fact that the coefficient is "h".) Given that much, the existence of "radiation pressure" follows from conservation of momentum; he also works that through in "Electro", by looking at light striking a mirror in a moving frame. Once you have radiation pressure and the relativistic Doppler shift, the change in mass for a radiating body follows pretty easily, which is why "Inertia" is such a short paper. He makes one additional assumption, which is that the total energy of an object in a particular frame is some constant plus its kinetic energy. Given that, using the previously derived transformation rules for energy of a photon (term not yet coined in 1905, of course!), he shows with simple arithmetic that if energy is to be conserved, the mass of a radiating body must decrease. To summarize, the "heavy lifting" was done in "Electro", where the fact that light carries energy and momentum was established. Once that is given, conservation of momentum leads almost inevitably to the conclusion that radiation must _also_ carry away some mass, which is really all the "E=mc^2" formula says. Anyhow I had a few comments on your response. David Thomson wrote: [ snip ] > >>> E=mc^2 >>> mc^2=mc^2 >>> for c=1; m=m > >> OK, so if E=mc^2 and our units are such that c=1, then m=m. Is that >> a contradiction? Do you want to say m is _not_ equal to itself? > > My presentation of the equation is not a contradiction. The standard > presentation is: > > E=mc^2 > for c=1; E=m > > The standard presentation for the equivalence of energy and mass is > where the contradiction lies, not my view. > > If you are going to change one side of an equation, you have to > change the other side, too, in order to maintain the equality. Do > you disagree? I think I disagree, but I don't understand what you're getting at here. Setting "c" to 1 _does_ change both sides of the equation, after all, as it changes the units in which energy is measured. It is common to choose units such that c=1 when working with simple problems in special relativity, as it simplifies a lot of equations. Working in units of light years (distance) and years (time), for instance, makes c equal to 1. But of course, that implicitly changes the units of "E", and if the equation balanced to start with, it'll still balance afterwards, using those new units for "E". By the same token, if you write the kinetic energy as "K = (1/2)mv^2" in Newtonian mechanics, the equation is still valid, and still balances, if you change your measure of velocity from miles per hour to kilometers per hour, or lightyears per year (or furlongs per fortnight). Setting "c" to 1 that way doesn't help with the dimensions, of course, and it's still not really valid to actually drop out the coefficients of "c". However, in more formal treatments, such as, e.g., in Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's "Gravitation", time and space are recorded using the same dimensions, applying the "c" conversion factor at the point of measurement. The axes are subsequently labeled using the same units for everything. IIRC, MTW use meters for both time and space, but they could just as well use seconds for both. This is not invalid, but it does occasionally lead to confusion. Among other things it makes dimensional analysis almost useless for checking results. The main reason it's done is that the equations simplify enormously when "c" is dropped out. In particular, the Lorentz transforms are symmetric if "c" is left out, but they're not apparently symmetric if "c" is included. From the point of view of the math, it doesn't make much sense to label the axes with different units; from the point of view of the physics, using the same units for time and space makes it easy to make mistakes. Whatever, it's a tradeoff... And whatever whatever, I still don't see the problem you have with the algebra. Perhaps you can clarify it a bit, and show the exact operation you feel is illegal, or show a contradiction? >>> There is no equivalence of mass and energy, except if you make >>> special provisions for breaking the rules of algebra. > >> So I gather you feel e=mc^2 is false. > >> I have the impression that would come as a surprise to a lot of > particle physicists. > > I have argued this point with many physicists, and yes, it is a > point of contention with them. I actually had the impression particle physicists used E=mc^2 in their day to day work. But I can't back that up with anything solid. > In order to pass their classes involving SR, they had to accept that > one side of the equation could be altered, while not altering the > other side. For them, there is no questioning the "fact" that > energy is equivalent to mass, even when it is pointed out the basic > math is wrong. > > >> Actually modern QM is based rather heavily on SR, or so I've been led >> to believe in conversations with quantum physicists. > > And your point is what? That just because people use SR that it has > to be correct? No, not at all. I thought you had claimed SR and QM produced contradictory results. I was pointing out that the modern treatment of QM is based on SR -- they're not separate fields. > What about the rules of math, do they count for anything? In my little world they count for almost everything. I'm a lot more interested in the math than in physics experiments, to tell the truth. >>> Further, with regard to SR, if we use the equation as it is given, >>> then the energy of a photon should be zero, because it has zero >>> mass (unless you try to fix the problem by inventing a new kind of >>> "thought mass"). > >> The photon has no _rest_ mass. It carries energy and can be said >> -- and is said, by some physicists -- to carry mass as well. > > Nonsense!!! Absolute nonsense!!! OK things are getting a little out of hand here. The "rest mass" is the mass of an object when it's standing still. Do you agree with that? When I step on the scale in the morning I measure my "rest mass". I think your objection is to the claim that inertial mass increases with velocity. Is that correct? Photons never stand still (let's wait at least a few minutes before we start arguing about standing waves!) so the "rest mass" of a photon isn't exactly well defined. If we try to extrapolate the formulas of SR to a photon which is "standing still", the mass we'd find for it would be zero -- but since they don't stand still, again, it doesn't mean much. And by the way, what I said about physicists is true. I've been in arguments between physicists on exactly this point, and some assert that it certainly has mass and they even compute a value for it. Others turn purple in the face and start shouting at that point. > The mass=energy equation is false, yet you use the equation as proof > that itself must be correct. I didn't "prove" anything there. I just pointed out that there's no trivial contradiction to the fact that the photon carries energy and has zero rest mass, because in relativity theory, the "relativistic mass" and the rest mass are not the same thing. You may think reality doesn't behave that way, of course, and that's an issue to be settled by experiment. > Moreover, there is no such empirically observed thing as "rest > mass." I would argue that "rest mass" is trivial to measure -- we do it every day. It's the "relativistic mass" of a moving body that is a tough nut to crack -- it's hard to weigh something in motion, and it's very hard to weigh something moving at a good fraction of C. AFAIK any measurements of "relativistic mass" of moving objects which showed any difference from the "rest mass" must have been done indirectly (and I don't know if there have been any such). From here down things got progressively out of hand, so I'm going to make a big . Feel free to re-post any of the cut text to which you want a response. I want to respond to one more thing in your note, which I will take somewhat out of context: [ ... snip ... ] [SAL:] >> The mass of an iron nucleus is less than the sum of the masses of >> the nucleons, if we use hydrogen and helium for our "standard" to >> figure out what nucleons weigh. Fusion releases energy, and the >> "ash" which is left behind has less mass. Makes sense to me. [DT:] > It doesn't make sense to science, however. If the sum of the > individual protons and neutrons mass is greater than the combined > mass, then that means the nucleus has less mass than the sum of the > individual parts, right? > > E=mc^2 > > If the mass decreases, the energy decreases, right? > > Where is the "sense" you refer to? It looks like nonsense to me. > > One would have to believe the exact opposite effect occurs when > nuclei are unbound than when they are bound. If they gave up energy > when being bound, then they must absorb energy when being split, > otherwise the protons and neutrons would be short of mass. If > E=mc^2 is true, and mass is converted to energy during nuclear > binding, nuclear fission reactions should create a vast cold > implosion, not a vast hot explosion. OK. Let's look at some numbers, rounded off a bit, while ignoring the mass of the electrons, and with the assumption that protons and neutrons mass the same. Atomic number of iron is 26. Atomic weight of iron_56 (the most common isotope): 55.935, nucleon count 56 (26 protons and 30 neutrons). Mass of a nucleon, in an iron_56 nucleus, is 0.9988 units. Atomic weight of hydrogen: 1.0078 So, a bare proton or neutron weighs 1.0078 units, or about 1% _more_ than the same particle embedded in an iron nucleus. Fusing 56 assorted protons and neutrons results in a mass _loss_ of about 0.5 units -- about half the mass of a proton. And that operation would release energy, in the form of radiation and/or kinetic energy of any released particles. Down to iron, fusion is _exothermic_ -- fusing light elements releases energy. What's more, _fission_ of any element no heavier than iron is ENDOTHERMIC -- it _costs_ energy to split an iron nucleus. BUT let's look at tellurium, the element with twice iron's atomic number. Its atomic number is 52. Its most common isotope is Te_78, with an atomic weight of 129.906, and 130 nucleons (52 protons and 78 neutrons). Weight of an average nucleon in a Te_78 nucleus is 0.9993 units, or about 0.04% _more_ than the same nucleon would weigh inside an iron nucleus. If we fused two iron_56 nuclei to build a tellurium_78 nucleus (never mind the neutron count mismatch for the moment!), we'd _GAIN_ about 0.0004 units of mass per nucleon, or a total of about 0.034 atomic mass units total. And fusion of elements heavier than iron is _ENDOTHERMIC_ -- you need to put energy in to do it. On the other hand, fission of elements heavier than iron is exothermic. When uranium splits, the pieces weigh less than, in aggregate, than the original nucleus, and the reaction gives off energy. Fusion bombs use hydrogen; fission bombs use uranium (or other super-heavy elements). Fission of a heavy element -- heavier than iron -- releases energy, and fission bombs and reactors _must_ use heavy elements for their fuel. Fusion bombs, on the other hand, cannot use heavy elements as their fuel, because fusion between heavy elements actually costs energy. I do not see any contradiction between this and the assertion that mass and energy are being interconverted during fission and fusion reactions. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 11:00:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27J09Iv014497; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:00:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27J064u014477; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:00:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:00:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:59:34 -0600 Message-ID: <003701c760ea$c7de0ae0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45EEF4ED.9040803@pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdg3nQWlomIhlpqSy6zEWxWT5FVPgAARsxw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73512 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steven, > First, as an aside, I don't think Einstein originated the idea of the interchangeability of mass and energy. Are you going to give me a history lesson, or are we going to discuss the physics? Einstein clearly supported the mass/energy equivalence principle and is widely credited with its existence, regardless of whether he plagiarized it or not. There is no mass/energy equivalence principle. Period. There is no valid math to support such a theory. > Once you have radiation pressure and the relativistic Doppler shift, the change in mass for a radiating body follows pretty easily, which is why "Inertia" is such a short paper. He makes one additional assumption, which is that the total energy of an object in a particular frame is some constant plus its kinetic energy. Given that, using the previously derived transformation rules for energy of a photon (term not yet coined in 1905, of course!), he shows with simple arithmetic that if energy is to be conserved, the mass of a radiating body must decrease. And therein lies the source of the deception. What the body radiates is not energy, but photons. Photons are not energy, they are the quantum of light. The concept that energy packets is the same thing as a photon is an incorrect assumption. Energy is merely the amount of work something does. Energy is not a thing. Photons are a thing. Unfortunately, Einstein never quantifies exactly what a photon is, he only quantifies the amount of work that it does. By using loose language, one can be bamboozled into believing that a quantum amount of work is the same thing as a photon, but this is false. In the Aether Physics Model, I properly quantify the photon as a true quantum of electromagnetic radiation. There is only one "size" of photon in the Aether Physics Model, as opposed to the infinite number of "wave packet sizes" in Einstein's theory. Einstein could not have quantified the photon as a wave packet, because a wave packet is not truly quantum. Each frequency has its own wave packet size (amount of work it does), which means that if the photon is a wave packet, then there are an infinite number of different photons, which defies the concept of quantum. > To summarize, the "heavy lifting" was done in "Electro", where the fact that light carries energy and momentum was established. Once that is given, conservation of momentum leads almost inevitably to the conclusion that radiation must _also_ carry away some mass, which is really all the "E=mc^2" formula says. No, photons carry away mass, not radiation. Radiation is a unit, like velocity and energy. It is not a thing of itself. Regardless of the confusion created by Einstein's presentation, the logic does not hold with nuclear binding and unbinding processes, as I clearly pointed out earlier. If mass is lost during binding (fusion), then mass must be gained during unbinding (fission). And if mass is gained during fission, then the environment must give up energy (heat) to the unbinding of the nucleus. According to Einstein's presentation of mass/energy equivalence, a nuclear bomb should freeze the environment, not heat it. Anyhow I had a few comments on your response. >> If you are going to change one side of an equation, you have to >> change the other side, too, in order to maintain the equality. Do >> you disagree? > I think I disagree, but I don't understand what you're getting at > here. Setting "c" to 1 _does_ change both sides of the equation, > after all, as it changes the units in which energy is measured. Then you are at odds with the scientific establishment. According to standard practice, c is changed to one on only the right side of the equation. So if you agree that c has to be changed on both sides, then you agree with me and refute the standard explanation. > Setting "c" to 1 that way doesn't help with the dimensions, of course, and it's still not really valid to actually drop out the coefficients of "c". However, in more formal treatments, such as, e.g., in Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's "Gravitation", time and space are recorded using the same dimensions, applying the "c" conversion factor at the point of measurement. I have "Gravitation," too. Just because one million people make the same mistake doesn't change the fact that it is a mistake. I have agreed that there are instances where you can break the rules of math and still come up with a useful answer. The problem is that once the rules are broken, and the theory accepted as true, then there are many other answers that can never be solved. My work is an attempt to correct the very foundations of physics and eradicate the errors, thus allowing for a truly consistent physics, which works all the time. > This is not invalid, but it does occasionally lead to confusion. Among other things it makes dimensional analysis almost useless for checking results. This is a good example of what I am talking about. Just because Einstein's version of SR has some usefulness does not mean the physics is correct. If the physics were correct, dimensional analysis would always work, as it does in the Aether Physics Model. > And whatever whatever, I still don't see the problem you have with the algebra. Perhaps you can clarify it a bit, and show the exact operation you feel is illegal, or show a contradiction? I have done this in another recent post. The problem with the algebra is simply that it is not a valid rule, which can be used equally with all equations and give correct results. Also, having pointed out the error, I'm not here to waste the rest of my life repeatedly pointing it out. My mission is to promote an alternative foundation of physics, which is far more superior to the mass/energy paradigm. The Aether/angular momentum paradigm is entirely discrete and allows for precise quantification of quantum structure, which is something neither QM nor Relativity theories can do. > I actually had the impression particle physicists used E=mc^2 in their day to day work. They do, which is why they cannot unify the forces, or even reconcile Relativity with QM. But that doesn't seem to deter them. Even though the various theories contradict each other, the scientists seem quite at ease with the situation. > No, not at all. I thought you had claimed SR and QM produced contradictory results. I was pointing out that the modern treatment of QM is based on SR -- they're not separate fields. They do produce contradictory results, as I have clearly pointed out in the analysis of fission and fusion treatments by SR. If SR claims that energy is equivalent or equal to mass, and that the so-called "mass defect" is evidence for Relativity, then either the fusion or the fission reaction should produce energy while the other should absorb energy. You can't both lose mass to create energy and gain mass to create energy. It has to be one or the other. QM and SR are clearly at odds. >> What about the rules of math, do they count for anything? > In my little world they count for almost everything. I'm a lot more interested in the math than in physics experiments, to tell the truth. Then calculate how much energy a photon has using E=mc^2. > The "rest mass" is the mass of an object when it's standing still. Do you agree with that? When I step on the scale in the morning I measure my "rest mass". No, I don't agree with that. The issue I'm raising is that there is only one kind of mass, and it is the measured mass. A photon has zero measured mass, even when the photon is experimentally made to stand still in the laboratory. > I think your objection is to the claim that inertial mass increases with velocity. Is that correct? No, that is not my contention. My contention is that if a photon has energy, then according to E=mc^2 it also has mass. The mass doesn't disappear when the energy increases, the mass increases when the energy increases. You can't say that all the mass is converted to energy, because then there would be no mass, and thus no energy. Work with your beloved equation for the moment. If the photon has the energy of 8.187 x 10^-14 joule and it is traveling at the speed of light, then it must have a mass of 9.109 x 10^-31 kg. That is the only way the equation will work, if it is truly an equation. You cannot arbitrarily invent a new kind of mass that has mass except it is equal to zero even though it is not zero. Let me put it this way, the only way the photon can have energy is because a real mass is moving. If the mass were truly at rest, it would have zero energy. But if that is the case, then mass cannot be equal to energy because we can still measure the mass even though it is not moving. If I have a rest mass of 5kg, then according to E=mc^2, it has zero energy at zero speed. But if it has zero energy, and energy and mass are equivalent, then the 5kg mass should be equal to zero, because the energy is equal to zero. Do you see the lack of logic here? You want to continually bend the rules by inventing non-existent types of mass and applying different perspectives to different phenomena in order to get the result you *want* to see. Once again, isn't this like listening to a religionist? James Cameron just presented strong evidence of Jesus' family tomb. But since the religionists are firmly convinced that Jesus' body ascended to heaven, it couldn't possibly be Jesus' family. The belief drives the interpretation of the facts. You are doing the same thing with E=mc^2. You are so convinced that SR as presented in modern physics is correct, you are willing to break the rules of math just to abide by the popular belief. I'm sorry if you don't like this reasoning, but it is entirely logical. > Photons never stand still (let's wait at least a few minutes before we start arguing about standing waves!) Let's not even bother with standing waves, as they are not an example of still photons to begin with. Let's talk about actually stopping a photon in the laboratory: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/27mar_stoplight.htm > so the "rest mass" of a photon isn't exactly well defined. That is because there is no such thing as "rest mass." Certainly, after 100 years, somebody would have found a way to precisely define and measure rest mass as different from some other kind of mass by now, don't you think? > If we try to extrapolate the formulas of SR to a photon which is "standing still", the mass we'd find for it would be zero -- but since they don't stand still, again, it doesn't mean much. You can't have it both ways. Either a photon has mass, or it does not. The mass does not disappear with speed according to E=mc^2, the mass increases with velocity. > And by the way, what I said about physicists is true. I've been in arguments between physicists on exactly this point, and some assert that it certainly has mass and they even compute a value for it. Others turn purple in the face and start shouting at that point. More evidence that the present theory is wrong. > > The mass=energy equation is false, yet you use the equation as proof > > that itself must be correct. > I didn't "prove" anything there. I just pointed out that there's no trivial contradiction to the fact that the photon carries energy and has zero rest mass, because in relativity theory, the "relativistic mass" and the rest mass are not the same thing. There is no such thing as "relativistic mass" and "rest mass." This is fantasy. You cannot invent a fantasy and use it to explain physics. That is not allowed (except in Special Relativity, which makes it appropriate to call it "special"). > You may think reality doesn't behave that way, of course, and that's an issue to be settled by experiment. This is another hypocrisy of physics. The Aether cannot be directly observed, therefore it does not exist. "Rest mass" cannot be directly observed, but it exists because Relativity theory needs it to exist. [irrelevant calculations of fission and fusion snipped] > I do not see any contradiction between this and the assertion that mass and energy are being interconverted during fission and fusion reactions. Let's not befuddle the situation by comparing apples and oranges. Let's look directly at the fission and fusion processes, themselves. According to modern theory, fusion results in the binding of protons and neutrons. It is observed that when nucleons bind, the total mass is less than the individual parts. This is called a "mass deficit." It is said that the mass deficit is evidence that mass was converted into energy. The energy release during binding is supposedly the mass that was converted to energy. That energy is now gone, having been radiated away. Now let us split the nucleus again into its individual components. According to E=mc^2, the splitting apart should absorb energy from the environment and converted it back to mass. This is not observed in any atomic reaction. In all cases of fission, more energy is released than absorbed. How is it that both fusion and fission reaction result in a net energy release if mass is converted to energy, and energy is converted to mass during the binding and unbinding processes? The answer is obvious, there is no such *thing* as energy, and mass is merely a dimension of inertia. In fact, Relativity theory has absolutely nothing to do with nuclear processes. All nuclear processes can be fully accounted for by tracking photons (gamma radiation), electrons (beta radiation), positrons, neutrons, protons, helium nuclei (alpha radiation), and atomic byproducts. The Einstein fantasy of the dimension of mass being converted to the unit of energy is completely irrelevant to atomic physics. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 11:09:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27J9EXk012697; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:09:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27J9DSc012688; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:09:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:09:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=jzuA01nMCNOBk1EeLGuFdlWiZIUWBYtsA4LUEE31R9wL6u121NRAl4eNuaRA6SLq0cn06Z0QYtF7G6P6RXSxy0MD2lU0ww95C8BZXXrFJDL6ZC1fLXBwo8zyz6u2IU1BLE7xppR+bxpr9P9LWkrRrin/FKVSxrUHiIvFaM4fJeM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=moxv84tGSSOBrJrPK6uoyoN5ar2Q7mopIO3ggAF7TL9WyFJV9GF3I3c7BEpfGcP5AUNXn/GmM23Px5NW3iqs8sExC8J5HKjhZNGltiTvZUAF0fUAI+Uyhcgu57aI93A7XmWJQKEMdl/3U0lgajHcuQGpvUf0Nu3Nv1G+PE5CJWc= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:09:07 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73513 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Brown's Gas burns hotter than the sun? Status: O X-Status: http://www.dailybeat.net/media/706/The-water-fueled-car.html yet another example of shoddy reporting. -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 11:46:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27JkloW029278; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:46:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27JkkhL029266; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:46:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:46:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:48:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l27JkivJ029245 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73514 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To avoid the voltage drop associated with a diode, which is huge compared to the noise signal, one could use smart auto-controled switches (fets) instead, which would only connect the noise source to the capacitor when the source is at a higher potential than the capacitor. This kind of diodelesss rectification scheme is used in low voltage switchmode power supplies, and is called "synchronous rectification". A kind of "sample and hold" which would resample every time the noise signal gets higher than the storage voltage. Now would the whole system be able to power itself plus some excess in isothermal conditions, where the switches themselves exhibit thermal noise? That's the question. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > Couple quick comments/questions... > > > > energymover@gmail.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > This email will describe the simplest (as far as I know) method of > > > capturing and storing ambient temperature energy. Hopefully those > > > wanting to reply could first read the entire email since I'll > > > address various possible questions later in this email. > > > > > > I was hoping at least someone would have answered my previously > > > posted question to nail down their stance if they believe it's > > > possible to capture and store energy taken from ambient > > > temperature. Since nobody posted his or her stance I'll just go > > > ahead and post the proof. This could be a fun ride, as debating > > > experience shows most people won't be nailed, which allows them to > > > weasel out of any situation, which is probably one reason there are > > > so many formulations of the 2nd law. There's a well-taken 2nd law > > > quote in the physics community by physicist P.W. Bridgman, "There > > > are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been > > > discussions of it." > > > > > > Personally it's not my present goal or interest to focus on the 2nd > > > law. Truthfully, there are too many 2nd law formulations, as one > > > physicist may adhere to a stricter interpretation than another. My > > > only assertion is that energy can be captured from ambient > > > temperature, and here is how. > > > > > > Here is a clear-cut method to demonstrate the assertion. Using a > > > low noise high gain amp and oscilloscope view a resistors thermal > > > noise. This is an extremely simple task. I would be more than happy > > > to provide anyone legitimately interested individual with a simple > > > circuits to view such noise. You will see the thermal noise voltage > > > fluctuating in a random unpredictable fashion. Guess what, you are > > > witnessing a direct conversion from ambient temperature energy to > > > battery storage. A capacitor stores energy in the form of electric > > > potential. So where's the capacitor you ask. All measuring devices > > > from common amps to oscilloscopes have input capacitance. > > > > 10x scope probes run around 10-15 pF, IIRC. I think a 100x probe is > > rather lower. > > > > Opamp inputs tend to be a lot lower, tho, but still definitely finite > > and large enough to have a macroscopic impact on a circuit. > > > > So, yeah, you're seeing a cap charge and discharge, alright... > > > > > > > If you want more capacitance than simply place a small capacitor > > > across the resistor. You will still see the thermal noise voltage, > > > but the average rms voltage amplitude will decrease. There's now a > > > total of 4 pF if your amp has 2 pF input and you add a 2pF across > > > the resistor. Lets say at a given moment you see 10 mV across the > > > capacitor. At that moment you could unplug the capacitor to claim > > > your energy. LOL, indeed it's a small amount of energy, but it is > > > true that you actually captured energy from ambient temperature. If > > > you want more energy then simply make more devices. > > > > > > Please note I am not stating this is your "smoking gun!" This is > > > ***MERELY*** to demonstrate the possibility, to let people know it > > > is indeed possible!! If you have the money and technology such as > > > IBM then it's possible to make trillions of such devices in a small > > > area. One device could be a nanometer. One hundred trillion 2 pF > > > capacitors at 10 mV each contains 10 mJ's of energy. If memory > > > holds true, the human eye in complete darkness can see a flash of > > > red focused light of less than 1 nJ. One 780 nm red light photon > > > contains just 2.5E-19 J's! > > > > > > Ten mJ's may not sound like much, but it merely demonstrates that > > > you can capture energy from ambient temperature. This is not the > > > best method of capturing ambient temperature energy, but again it > > > merely proves the assertion. > > > > > > Again, in the nutshell, a resistor generates thermal voltage > > > noise. All measuring devices from common amps to oscilloscopes to > > > multimeters always have a certain amount of capacitance. When you > > > measured that thermal noise voltage that capacitor in the measuring > > > device is charged to that value. You can also add your own capacitor > > > across the resistor. Your capacitor would be completely discharged > > > before you add it, but at any given moment once the capacitor is > > > connected to the resistor their will be a certain charged voltage on > > > the capacitor. At any given moment you could unplug the capacitor to > > > retain such energy. You could perform the same experiment with an > > > inductor since all measuring devices have inductance. > > > > > > What you do with such energy is your choice. One hundred 2 pF > > > capacitors charged to 10 mV is very usable. That's equal to a 200 > > > farad capacitor charged to 10 mV. You could discharge the cap > > > energy to an inductor followed by a quick field collapse to generate > > > appreciable amount of voltage across a smaller cap. Or you could > > > place a percentage of the caps in series to increase the voltage, > > > etc. etc. > > > > > > Skeptics may wonder just how much energy is required to "unplug" the > > > capacitor. There is no theoretical limit. > > > > Right -- if there's a fatal flaw in the scheme, the energy to unplug > > the capacitor is _not_ that flaw! > > > > > > > How much energy does it require to move a nanometer filament a > > > fraction of a nanometer? History demonstrates that the amount of > > > energy required from an electrical switch has drastically > > > decreased. Consider the FET, which on average has roughly 1E+12 ohms > > > DC resistance. Sure, the FET has capacitance, but that in itself is > > > stored energy. This is akin to how much energy is require to stop an > > > object. One might think it requires a lot pressure to stop the > > > object. Consider a spinning wheel next to a table. On the table is a > > > hollow metal tube welded to the table. To stop the spinning wheel > > > one merely needs to slide a metal bar in the hollow tube extending > > > out the other end of the hollow tube, which jams in the wheels > > > spokes, which abruptly stops the spinning wheel. The only amount of > > > energy required to stop the wheel merely depends how much energy was > > > required to slide the metal bar to jam the spokes. > > > > > > On many occasions I've described a device that has far higher > > > potential for "free energy" than the aforementioned example. The > > > above is to provide a simple undeniable clear-cut example. Of course > > > there will always be those who will deny anything that goes against > > > their beliefs. A more practical device that requires ***NO*** > > > energy such as from a switch would be my resistor and LED device. > > > The thermal voltage noise from the resistor will generate thermal > > > current in the LED. All LED's emit photos at any applied voltage. It > > > just turns out the LED is exponentially more efficient above the > > > forward voltage level. In such a device the LED would emit more > > > photons when connected to a resistor of high resistance. > > > > I still have some problems with this one. > > > > First, an LED typically has a large forward drop (or at least they > > used to, I assume that hasn't changed in the last decade or so). If > > there's any effect at all, most of it's going to get cut off due to > > that big drop. > > > > If rectifying noise is to work, I should think you'd want to use > > something (like a Schottky diode) with a very low forward drop. > > > > Second, nearly all your noise is very close to zero volts, and close > > to zero volts, diodes are close to linear. They conduct as something > > like I = I_s * (exp(x*v) - 1) where "x" is a constant I don't feel > > like writing out. This is from a book but the general form is easy > > enough to verify in a lab (though tedious). Very close to zero volts, > > this formula is very close to > > > > I = I_s * x * v > > > > or, in other words, the diode is (nearly) linear at zero volts. That > > suggests that it might leak really badly in an application where > > the signal strength is totally minute. > > > > These may just be practical concerns but it's not clear how to get > > past them. > > > > I don't know enough about LEDs to answer this additional question: Can > > an LED operate "backwards", as a solar cell? This may be a concern at > > very low emission rates. > > > > As you pointed out, LED's emit appreciable energy above forward voltage. > Although according to real experiments and Spice sims the LED just does not > suddenly go from emitting to not emitting photons. In fact, there's no magical > level where an LED suddenly changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room temperature in > > > complete darkness (no solar) there are visible light photons > > > striking the cell. I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm common solar cell > > > would generate roughly 1E-30 volts. Not much voltage, lol, but > > > still something nonetheless. The amount of radiated blackbody > > > energy is small in the visible region. Although the FIR region is > > > another story. Both sides of a thin sheet of 1m x 1m material > > > radiates roughly 920 watts continuously in complete darkness at room > > > temperature. Technology is improving, thereby allowing photovoltaic > > > cells to capture lower and lower frequencies. A Canadian university > > > succeeded in creating a 1355 nm photovoltaic cell! That's only > > > 1/11th the wavelength away from the peak 15000 nm 920 watts/m^2 > > > blackbody 300 K radiation. BTW, blackbody radiation at 1355 nm is > > > 2E+18 times greater than visible region of 600 nm. To calculate this > > > I compared the radiation from 16667 to 16677 cm^-1, which is > > > 3.907E-29 watts to 7380 to 7390 cm^-1, which is 7.499e-11 watts. > > > > > > University of Toronto in Canada achieves 1355 nm photovoltaic cell: > > > http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/4/1/7/1 > > > > > > Eventually technology will reach the peak 15000 nm region where a > > > thin double sided 1m x 1m sheet receives ~920 watts. It's difficult > > > for a person to believe they are surrounded by a source "free > > > energy" because we don't see such energy with our eyes. > > > > This one still really bugs me. I don't understand solar cells well > > enough to know if this could work, but it just seems /wrong/ to me > > that a cell at the same temperature as a blackbody could generate > > useful electricity from the blackbody's radiation! (Even a solar > > cell made in Canada!) :-) > > > > The problem with typical visible light photovoltaic cells is there's hardly any > black body radiation in the visible light spectrum. I calculated/guesstimated > that such a cell would generate less than 1E-30 DC volts. On the other hand the > university in Canada made a significant breakthrough in photovoltaic cells by > allowing such cells efficiently absorb up to 1355 nm. Now that 1355 nm doesn't > sound like much as compared to 600 nm visible light, but blackbody radiation at > 1355 nm is 2E+18 times greater than at 600 nm visible light. > > To give an idea just how much energy is available from blackbody radiation alone > --> A two sided thin sheet of material at room temperature (300K) radiates ~920 > watts, which is peak at around 15000 nm. It will be very interesting when > technology increases from 1355 nm 15000 nm! :-) Last week I came across a forum > posting about the Canadian breakthrough, but cannot find it for the life of me. > There were physicists (or at least they sounded like physicists) saying things > that absolutely shocked me. Statements to the effect, "we're almost to the point > of collecting continuous ambient temperature radiation." > > Nature's not that cruel, right? I'm mean, surely we could design a device to > collect energy from a room full of bouncing basketballs. What about large > molecules? What about typical air molecules? What about room temperature atoms > vibrating at ~20 THz? What about vibrating electrons traveling ~1/200 c? Is > there a sudden magical size where nature says, "No! These particles are off > limits. You cannot have their energy!" I don't thinks so because of the simple > fact that a capacitor is able to charge to a certain point due to thermal > electrical noise. > > IMHO the task is in trying to find a design that is able to capture enough > ambient temperature energy without an appreciable loss. Some realistic > possibilities would include an LED array consisting of a trillion LED & R units. > Or perhaps improving photovoltaic cells to reach 15000 nm's. Those methods > sound complex. Truly if this was my task alone then I would first begin by > learning how to create a simple diode. I already know how to use a computer to > operate a circuit through the parallel port or USB. Therefore, I would design a > device that allowed the computer to create micro scale diodes and resistors. > Initially this may sound to complex and expensive, but I would beg to disagree. > I like the old saying, "Where there's a will there's a way." > > Truthfully I see a clear method of extracting such ambient temperature by means > of magnetic avalanches, but time will tell. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 11:48:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27JlOoM029665; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:47:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27JlL43029644; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:47:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:47:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45EF16C3.8090504@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:47:15 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <003701c760ea$c7de0ae0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <003701c760ea$c7de0ae0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73515 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > > [irrelevant calculations of fission and fusion snipped] The calculations were _not_ irrelevant. By ignoring them you also ignore the answer to your objection that fission and fusion "both release energy". They do not, if you're talking about the same nuclei being formed and then split, and the calculations show that they should not. In general, fission of heavy elements releases energy. Fusion of light elements releases energy. In general, fission of light elements requires energy. Fusion of heavy elements requires energy. Iron is at the "bottom of the trough". Fission of iron nuclei, or fusion of iron nuclei to form heavier atoms, _both_ /require/ energy. You snipped the calculations and called them "irrelevant" but that does not make it so. Why did you snip them? When atoms combine to form molecules, energy is released. (Look at hydrogen and oxygen, for instance.) When molecules break up, energy is also released. (Look at nitroglycerin, for instance.) That is every bit as much of a "contradiction" as the fact that light nuclei release energy when they fuse, while heavy nuclei release energy when they fission. > Let's not befuddle the situation by comparing apples and oranges. Let's > look directly at the fission and fusion processes, themselves. > > According to modern theory, fusion results in the binding of protons and > neutrons. It is observed that when nucleons bind, the total mass is less > than the individual parts. If you start with bare nucleons, yes. If you start with nucleons bound in a nucleus, and you smash them together to produce a heavier nucleus, then the answer is NOT NECESSARILY. You snipped the calculations that went with this. Why? > This is called a "mass deficit." It is said > that the mass deficit is evidence that mass was converted into energy. > > The energy release during binding is supposedly the mass that was converted > to energy. That energy is now gone, having been radiated away. > > Now let us split the nucleus again into its individual components. > According to E=mc^2, the splitting apart should absorb energy from the > environment and converted it back to mass. AND IT DOES -- if the element being split is no heavier than iron. But you snipped the calculations which went with this assertion. > This is not observed in any > atomic reaction. In all cases of fission, more energy is released than > absorbed. Fission of nuclei HEAVIER THAN IRON. Lighter nuclei DO NOT NATURALLY FISSION because it's an _endothermic_ reaction in that case. > > How is it that both fusion and fission reaction result in a net energy > release Fusion followed by fission of the same nucleus do _NOT_ both release energy. Either forming the nucleus is endothermic or it is exothermic, not both. For the last time, you snipped the calculations that went with this assertion and called them "irrelevant". They are not irrelevant; they are the heart of the explanation of your conundrum. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 12:03:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27K3MeO007690; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:03:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27K3Lua007679; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:03:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:03:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iUy/FyGvLC/cngBoJEyTZ5IZVj2GrJr+3mmmr+Jjp0uJfVikoChV5dIV20nZOoyBpvDgeSjh2v0CbMRQ+m+QPdLvUCtuf2FlANd8BYRi18bnkVKRzfGBfMtG/qr8qLGmqD7ULPeS1bXrO4WHFE6EFnnn03i5SGwPPUok7gU3k+o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=R6PWzMhuXyFBZGw60860J+dNJSRd3YwQ3YLr7BMgL6kVssmXrHejbPeNhUEaXW14hwMNcyYuYn5UzgIGGcQes5qIJNbXNCjw6Zmy29tUhoDZQbNsMAP1imC2YRYsGfr65GKqsetsOE9MoAjBI8Qc0RzWm0w5PfYQr0TV7fuIupQ= Message-ID: <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:03:06 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73516 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > To avoid the voltage drop associated with a diode, which is huge compared to the noise signal, one could use smart auto-controled switches (fets) instead, which would only connect the noise source to the capacitor when the source is at a higher potential than the capacitor. This kind of diodelesss rectification scheme is used in low voltage switchmode power supplies, and is called "synchronous rectification". > > A kind of "sample and hold" which would resample every time the noise signal gets higher than the storage voltage. > > Now would the whole system be able to power itself plus some excess in isothermal conditions, where the switches themselves exhibit thermal noise? That's the question. > > Michel --- Those are great ideas. I think present problems are due to inefficiencies. Inefficiencies of wires (copper), inefficiencies of semiconductors, inefficiencies of storage devices. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the future when technology reaches a certain level. Room temperature superconducting wires would be a nice big leap for mankind. For the moment, it appears the financially limited lone research can only *easily* create devices that capture infinitesimal amounts of "free energy" at room temperatures. Of course, if our planet were hotter then such a task would be easier-- Vn = sqrt(4 K T R df). As way of example, the blackbody radiation level in the visible region alone at 1000 K is 0.1 W/m^2. Compare that to 4E-23 W/m^ at 300 K. That's a huge difference. Regards, Paul > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lowrance" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > > >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>> Couple quick comments/questions... >>> >>> energymover@gmail.com wrote: >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > This email will describe the simplest (as far as I know) method of >>> > capturing and storing ambient temperature energy. Hopefully those >>> > wanting to reply could first read the entire email since I'll >>> > address various possible questions later in this email. >>> > >>> > I was hoping at least someone would have answered my previously >>> > posted question to nail down their stance if they believe it's >>> > possible to capture and store energy taken from ambient >>> > temperature. Since nobody posted his or her stance I'll just go >>> > ahead and post the proof. This could be a fun ride, as debating >>> > experience shows most people won't be nailed, which allows them to >>> > weasel out of any situation, which is probably one reason there are >>> > so many formulations of the 2nd law. There's a well-taken 2nd law >>> > quote in the physics community by physicist P.W. Bridgman, "There >>> > are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been >>> > discussions of it." >>> > >>> > Personally it's not my present goal or interest to focus on the 2nd >>> > law. Truthfully, there are too many 2nd law formulations, as one >>> > physicist may adhere to a stricter interpretation than another. My >>> > only assertion is that energy can be captured from ambient >>> > temperature, and here is how. >>> > >>> > Here is a clear-cut method to demonstrate the assertion. Using a >>> > low noise high gain amp and oscilloscope view a resistors thermal >>> > noise. This is an extremely simple task. I would be more than happy >>> > to provide anyone legitimately interested individual with a simple >>> > circuits to view such noise. You will see the thermal noise voltage >>> > fluctuating in a random unpredictable fashion. Guess what, you are >>> > witnessing a direct conversion from ambient temperature energy to >>> > battery storage. A capacitor stores energy in the form of electric >>> > potential. So where's the capacitor you ask. All measuring devices >>> > from common amps to oscilloscopes have input capacitance. >>> >>> 10x scope probes run around 10-15 pF, IIRC. I think a 100x probe is >>> rather lower. >>> >>> Opamp inputs tend to be a lot lower, tho, but still definitely finite >>> and large enough to have a macroscopic impact on a circuit. >>> >>> So, yeah, you're seeing a cap charge and discharge, alright... >>> >>> >>> > If you want more capacitance than simply place a small capacitor >>> > across the resistor. You will still see the thermal noise voltage, >>> > but the average rms voltage amplitude will decrease. There's now a >>> > total of 4 pF if your amp has 2 pF input and you add a 2pF across >>> > the resistor. Lets say at a given moment you see 10 mV across the >>> > capacitor. At that moment you could unplug the capacitor to claim >>> > your energy. LOL, indeed it's a small amount of energy, but it is >>> > true that you actually captured energy from ambient temperature. If >>> > you want more energy then simply make more devices. >>> > >>> > Please note I am not stating this is your "smoking gun!" This is >>> > ***MERELY*** to demonstrate the possibility, to let people know it >>> > is indeed possible!! If you have the money and technology such as >>> > IBM then it's possible to make trillions of such devices in a small >>> > area. One device could be a nanometer. One hundred trillion 2 pF >>> > capacitors at 10 mV each contains 10 mJ's of energy. If memory >>> > holds true, the human eye in complete darkness can see a flash of >>> > red focused light of less than 1 nJ. One 780 nm red light photon >>> > contains just 2.5E-19 J's! >>> > >>> > Ten mJ's may not sound like much, but it merely demonstrates that >>> > you can capture energy from ambient temperature. This is not the >>> > best method of capturing ambient temperature energy, but again it >>> > merely proves the assertion. >>> > >>> > Again, in the nutshell, a resistor generates thermal voltage >>> > noise. All measuring devices from common amps to oscilloscopes to >>> > multimeters always have a certain amount of capacitance. When you >>> > measured that thermal noise voltage that capacitor in the measuring >>> > device is charged to that value. You can also add your own capacitor >>> > across the resistor. Your capacitor would be completely discharged >>> > before you add it, but at any given moment once the capacitor is >>> > connected to the resistor their will be a certain charged voltage on >>> > the capacitor. At any given moment you could unplug the capacitor to >>> > retain such energy. You could perform the same experiment with an >>> > inductor since all measuring devices have inductance. >>> > >>> > What you do with such energy is your choice. One hundred 2 pF >>> > capacitors charged to 10 mV is very usable. That's equal to a 200 >>> > farad capacitor charged to 10 mV. You could discharge the cap >>> > energy to an inductor followed by a quick field collapse to generate >>> > appreciable amount of voltage across a smaller cap. Or you could >>> > place a percentage of the caps in series to increase the voltage, >>> > etc. etc. >>> > >>> > Skeptics may wonder just how much energy is required to "unplug" the >>> > capacitor. There is no theoretical limit. >>> >>> Right -- if there's a fatal flaw in the scheme, the energy to unplug >>> the capacitor is _not_ that flaw! >>> >>> >>> > How much energy does it require to move a nanometer filament a >>> > fraction of a nanometer? History demonstrates that the amount of >>> > energy required from an electrical switch has drastically >>> > decreased. Consider the FET, which on average has roughly 1E+12 ohms >>> > DC resistance. Sure, the FET has capacitance, but that in itself is >>> > stored energy. This is akin to how much energy is require to stop an >>> > object. One might think it requires a lot pressure to stop the >>> > object. Consider a spinning wheel next to a table. On the table is a >>> > hollow metal tube welded to the table. To stop the spinning wheel >>> > one merely needs to slide a metal bar in the hollow tube extending >>> > out the other end of the hollow tube, which jams in the wheels >>> > spokes, which abruptly stops the spinning wheel. The only amount of >>> > energy required to stop the wheel merely depends how much energy was >>> > required to slide the metal bar to jam the spokes. >>> > >>> > On many occasions I've described a device that has far higher >>> > potential for "free energy" than the aforementioned example. The >>> > above is to provide a simple undeniable clear-cut example. Of course >>> > there will always be those who will deny anything that goes against >>> > their beliefs. A more practical device that requires ***NO*** >>> > energy such as from a switch would be my resistor and LED device. >>> > The thermal voltage noise from the resistor will generate thermal >>> > current in the LED. All LED's emit photos at any applied voltage. It >>> > just turns out the LED is exponentially more efficient above the >>> > forward voltage level. In such a device the LED would emit more >>> > photons when connected to a resistor of high resistance. >>> >>> I still have some problems with this one. >>> >>> First, an LED typically has a large forward drop (or at least they >>> used to, I assume that hasn't changed in the last decade or so). If >>> there's any effect at all, most of it's going to get cut off due to >>> that big drop. >>> >>> If rectifying noise is to work, I should think you'd want to use >>> something (like a Schottky diode) with a very low forward drop. >>> >>> Second, nearly all your noise is very close to zero volts, and close >>> to zero volts, diodes are close to linear. They conduct as something >>> like I = I_s * (exp(x*v) - 1) where "x" is a constant I don't feel >>> like writing out. This is from a book but the general form is easy >>> enough to verify in a lab (though tedious). Very close to zero volts, >>> this formula is very close to >>> >>> I = I_s * x * v >>> >>> or, in other words, the diode is (nearly) linear at zero volts. That >>> suggests that it might leak really badly in an application where >>> the signal strength is totally minute. >>> >>> These may just be practical concerns but it's not clear how to get >>> past them. >>> >>> I don't know enough about LEDs to answer this additional question: Can >>> an LED operate "backwards", as a solar cell? This may be a concern at >>> very low emission rates. >> >> >> As you pointed out, LED's emit appreciable energy above forward voltage. >> Although according to real experiments and Spice sims the LED just does not >> suddenly go from emitting to not emitting photons. In fact, there's no magical >> level where an LED suddenly changes. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> > >>> > Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room temperature in >>> > complete darkness (no solar) there are visible light photons >>> > striking the cell. I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm common solar cell >>> > would generate roughly 1E-30 volts. Not much voltage, lol, but >>> > still something nonetheless. The amount of radiated blackbody >>> > energy is small in the visible region. Although the FIR region is >>> > another story. Both sides of a thin sheet of 1m x 1m material >>> > radiates roughly 920 watts continuously in complete darkness at room >>> > temperature. Technology is improving, thereby allowing photovoltaic >>> > cells to capture lower and lower frequencies. A Canadian university >>> > succeeded in creating a 1355 nm photovoltaic cell! That's only >>> > 1/11th the wavelength away from the peak 15000 nm 920 watts/m^2 >>> > blackbody 300 K radiation. BTW, blackbody radiation at 1355 nm is >>> > 2E+18 times greater than visible region of 600 nm. To calculate this >>> > I compared the radiation from 16667 to 16677 cm^-1, which is >>> > 3.907E-29 watts to 7380 to 7390 cm^-1, which is 7.499e-11 watts. >>> > >>> > University of Toronto in Canada achieves 1355 nm photovoltaic cell: >>> > http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/4/1/7/1 >>> > >>> > Eventually technology will reach the peak 15000 nm region where a >>> > thin double sided 1m x 1m sheet receives ~920 watts. It's difficult >>> > for a person to believe they are surrounded by a source "free >>> > energy" because we don't see such energy with our eyes. >>> >>> This one still really bugs me. I don't understand solar cells well >>> enough to know if this could work, but it just seems /wrong/ to me >>> that a cell at the same temperature as a blackbody could generate >>> useful electricity from the blackbody's radiation! (Even a solar >>> cell made in Canada!) :-) >> >> >> The problem with typical visible light photovoltaic cells is there's hardly any >> black body radiation in the visible light spectrum. I calculated/guesstimated >> that such a cell would generate less than 1E-30 DC volts. On the other hand the >> university in Canada made a significant breakthrough in photovoltaic cells by >> allowing such cells efficiently absorb up to 1355 nm. Now that 1355 nm doesn't >> sound like much as compared to 600 nm visible light, but blackbody radiation at >> 1355 nm is 2E+18 times greater than at 600 nm visible light. >> >> To give an idea just how much energy is available from blackbody radiation alone >> --> A two sided thin sheet of material at room temperature (300K) radiates ~920 >> watts, which is peak at around 15000 nm. It will be very interesting when >> technology increases from 1355 nm 15000 nm! :-) Last week I came across a forum >> posting about the Canadian breakthrough, but cannot find it for the life of me. >> There were physicists (or at least they sounded like physicists) saying things >> that absolutely shocked me. Statements to the effect, "we're almost to the point >> of collecting continuous ambient temperature radiation." >> >> Nature's not that cruel, right? I'm mean, surely we could design a device to >> collect energy from a room full of bouncing basketballs. What about large >> molecules? What about typical air molecules? What about room temperature atoms >> vibrating at ~20 THz? What about vibrating electrons traveling ~1/200 c? Is >> there a sudden magical size where nature says, "No! These particles are off >> limits. You cannot have their energy!" I don't thinks so because of the simple >> fact that a capacitor is able to charge to a certain point due to thermal >> electrical noise. >> >> IMHO the task is in trying to find a design that is able to capture enough >> ambient temperature energy without an appreciable loss. Some realistic >> possibilities would include an LED array consisting of a trillion LED & R units. >> Or perhaps improving photovoltaic cells to reach 15000 nm's. Those methods >> sound complex. Truly if this was my task alone then I would first begin by >> learning how to create a simple diode. I already know how to use a computer to >> operate a circuit through the parallel port or USB. Therefore, I would design a >> device that allowed the computer to create micro scale diodes and resistors. >> Initially this may sound to complex and expensive, but I would beg to disagree. >> I like the old saying, "Where there's a will there's a way." >> >> Truthfully I see a clear method of extracting such ambient temperature by means >> of magnetic avalanches, but time will tell. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 12:26:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27KQKOq022658; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:26:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27KQJOq022642; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:26:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:26:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:26:17 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_91d17e1c3fdbe6de5223c08ccd648406" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070307202627.DE5D83FA1E9@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73517 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_91d17e1c3fdbe6de5223c08ccd648406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This might sound like I'm simply parroting Mr. Lawrence's concerns but it is not. I sent my own message earlier but it got lost in the void. I felt strong enough to send my query again, and hopefully this time it will get through. >From Mr. Thompson > [irrelevant calculations of fission and fusion snipped] I'm not so sure those fission/fusion calculations are "irrelevant." I think they may actually go to the heart of the matter, no pun intended. >> I do not see any contradiction between this and the >> assertion that mass and energy are being interconverted >> during fission and fusion reactions. > Let's not befuddle the situation by comparing apples and > oranges. Let's look directly at the fission and fusion > processes, themselves. > According to modern theory, fusion results in the binding > of protons and neutrons. It is observed that when nucleons > bind, the total mass is less than the individual parts. > This is called a "mass deficit." It is said that the mass > deficit is evidence that mass was converted into energy. > The energy release during binding is supposedly the mass > that was converted to energy. That energy is now gone, > having been radiated away. That is my layman's understanding of the process as well. > Now let us split the nucleus again into its individual > components. According to E=mc^2, the splitting apart should > absorb energy from the environment and converted it back to > mass. This is not observed in any atomic reaction. In all > cases of fission, more energy is released than absorbed. This is where it gets interesting for me. In all cases? I'd sure like a clarification. For one thing, it is not clear _where_ on the atomic scale this "split"ing is occurring according. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be stating that no energy is observed when we "split the nucleus". That may very well be the general case for elements whose atomic number is iron (Fe) or less. But what is your explanation for what is happening to the splitting of protons and neutrons beholding to elements greater than Fe? What mechanism was responsible for the vaporization of hundreds and thousands of hapless citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki over a half century ago. Those "atom" bombs were certainly not "fusing" protons and neutrons. > How is it that both fusion and fission reaction result in a > net energy release if mass is converted to energy, and energy > is converted to mass during the binding and unbinding processes? It was always my understanding that it has to do with where on the atomic number scale the mass/energy conversion is occurring. > The answer is obvious, there is no such *thing* as energy, and > mass is merely a dimension of inertia. In fact, Relativity > theory has absolutely nothing to do with nuclear processes. > All nuclear processes can be fully accounted for by tracking > photons (gamma radiation), electrons (beta radiation), positrons, > neutrons, protons, helium nuclei (alpha radiation), and atomic > byproducts. The Einstein fantasy of the dimension of mass being > converted to the unit of energy is completely irrelevant to atomic > physics. > > Dave Personally, I find aspects of your theory interesting. However, additional clarifications may be warranted. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_91d17e1c3fdbe6de5223c08ccd648406 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This might sound like I'm simply parroting Mr. Lawrence's concerns but it i= s not. I sent my own message earlier but it got lost in the void. I felt st= rong enough to send my query again, and hopefully this time it will get thr= ough.

>From Mr. Thompson

> [irrelevant calculations of fission and fusion snipped]

I'm not so sure those fission/fusion calculations are "irrelevant." I think= they may actually go to the heart of the matter, no pun intended.

>> I do not see any contradiction between this and the
>> assertion that mass and energy are being interconverted
>> during fission and fusion reactions.

> Let's not befuddle the situation by comparing apples and
> oranges. Let's look directly at the fission and fusion
> processes, themselves.

> According to modern theory, fusion results in the binding
> of protons and neutrons. It is observed that when nucleons
> bind, the total mass is less than the individual parts.
> This is called a "mass deficit." It is said that the mass
> deficit is evidence that mass was converted into energy.

> The energy release during binding is supposedly the mass
> that was converted to energy. That energy is now gone,
> having been radiated away.

That is my layman's understanding of the process as well.

> Now let us split the nucleus again into its individual
> components. According to E=3Dmc^2, the splitting apart should
> absorb energy from the environment and converted it back to
> mass. This is not observed in any atomic reaction. In all
> cases of fission, more energy is released than absorbed.

This is where it gets interesting for me. In all cases? I'd sure like a cla= rification. For one thing, it is not clear _where_ on the atomic scale this= "split"ing is occurring according. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to= be stating that no energy is observed when we "split the nucleus".

That may very well be the general case for elements whose atomic number is = iron (Fe) or less. But what is your explanation for what is happening to th= e splitting of protons and neutrons beholding to elements greater than Fe?<= br />
What mechanism was responsible for the vaporization of hundreds and thousan= ds of hapless citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki over a half century ago. T= hose "atom" bombs were certainly not "fusing" protons and neutrons.

> How is it that both fusion and fission reaction result in a
> net energy release if mass is converted to energy, and energy
> is converted to mass during the binding and unbinding processes?

It was always my understanding that it has to do with where on the atomic n= umber scale the mass/energy conversion is occurring.

> The answer is obvious, there is no such *thing* as energy, and
> mass is merely a dimension of inertia. In fact, Relativity
> theory has absolutely nothing to do with nuclear processes.
> All nuclear processes can be fully accounted for by tracking
> photons (gamma radiation), electrons (beta radiation), positrons,
> neutrons, protons, helium nuclei (alpha radiation), and atomic
> byproducts. The Einstein fantasy of the dimension of mass being
> converted to the unit of energy is completely irrelevant to atomic
> physics.
>
> Dave

Personally, I find aspects of your theory interesting. However, additional = clarifications may be warranted.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_91d17e1c3fdbe6de5223c08ccd648406-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 12:34:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27KY3ie011936; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:34:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27KY0BF011905; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:34:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:34:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=mTkeYSdBD8U9UtoMDxkQCN7E8V0Lg1RUP9gW9GsfmsqjmKYazq77CCxcR4kmo0egl6UXxicZGWXuvjWQ2UdaB96JL0ElyxnndjZQ76OlDPJkTN8mqbReVoapAe86LnWNS+CNUXp7HW8RGcs00sYFWINb8cn3eJdz6ClL6oTxUkI= ; X-YMail-OSG: X.3AGyIVM1mJahf0DR5BWx2HFzzgNVanToP21slHaJHZ3Bsrst3crZMJb8XXOsuGzPzLoz9WB5I5b8x9aP9t0feA_S19Wyj2.AhTMWu_qHAEQ3gHi19V9keV.SageJYD.WSugtplsGeoxCo- Message-ID: <45EF21B2.80201@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:33:54 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , Michel Jullian Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73518 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Michel, > BTW your challenge/riddle beats me, can the thing be made OU after all? If you mean in a circular way - "are there specific demonstrable physical violations of the LoT, aside from LENR; and is any example amenable to being harnessed in a device which incorporates a heat pump?" If that is the question - and aside from LENR effects, and the hydrino, and high-efficiency electrolysis, already mentioned - any or all of which can be used in conjunction with a heat pump situation, there are at least two more of these anomalous "cross-category" effects. One is "IPE" and the other is the "entropic explosion", or the heatless bomb. By "cross-category" effect, I am referring to the lesser-known effects which are not "merely" thermodynamic, and which may involve "new physics" - either nuclear (as in induced photon emission = IPE) or supra-chemical reactions. Supra-chemical reactions are reactions in which atoms interact in ways which are not nuclear but involve "more than" valence electrons - for instance: the k-shell electrons, the Mossbauer effect and the Auger cascade - or in the case of the hydrino, a prolonged condition below ground state in which angular momentum, or some other form of energy may be withdrawn - which level of energy puts the reaction above (supra) the well-know chemical reactions, which do obey the LoT. Well, to cut to the chase, some time ago I mentioned the situation of "entropic explosion". Since you probably missed a golden opportunity for further enlightenment at that time, as it was one of those posts where the subject line turned up missing, I will enclose an amended version below. I appreciate the fact that you do not enjoy long postings - and my apologies in advance for that. I would try to shorten it more, or translate it into French if I had the time, but for now, this will have to do. Jones Subject: Entropic Explosion (heatless bomb) First a definition: "Specific impulse" - A term used in rocketry or munitions, commonly abbreviated (Isp) which rates the efficiency of a propulsion system by the "impulse" (i.e. the change in momentum) per unit of propellant. The numerical dimension of specific impulse is either impulse per unit mass, or impulse per unit time; differing by a factor of g, the gravitational acceleration at the surface of the Earth. For example, the Specific impulse of hydrogen peroxide as a monopropellant is about 160-175 (sec), which is most amazing since when burned as a bipropellant with gasoline, this figure only goes up to about 225, not even double. And this is only slightly less than hydrogen burned with liguid oxygen - yet - the net heat energy of the gasoline is 13 times greater per volume than the heat energy of the peroxide. Huge anomaly. COP =5 ??? read on.... The anomaly, if you need it to be spelled out, is that the heat energy of the propellant can be only moderately related to its specific impulse. "Common sense" scientific teaching indicates otherwise. There are only a couple of chemicals where this particular anomaly (of heat energy not correlating to thrust) occurs and they involve phase change. A particular terrorist explosive, the name of which need not be mentioned for present purposes, is quietly in the science news lately for a number of security-related reasons. But for alternative energy R&D, the big news of interest is related to a surprising but little-known physical anomaly of the chemical, which is even absent from many (all) older University level textbooks. That explosive is peroxide based, but very different from conventional explosives in that it does NOT release heat during the explosion. Did the full implications of that feature hit you yet? If not, let me repeat: this chemical explosive does not release heat during the violent explosion! At least not very much. But it will definitely kill you and creates the normal amount of explosive damage. Irony-of ironies ! Would not it be some kind of poetic justice in the present socio-political climate if the fear-product of Islamic terrorism led directly to a major alternative-energy advance - which significantly lowered the demand for Middle-Eastern oil? Not as farfetched as one might imagine. The process of energy conversion in explosives, just like combustion, normally obeys thermodynamic laws and especially Boyle's Law. The phase-change conversion of solid or liquid to gas (as in the steam engine) normally is a product of large energy input and temperature rise, based on combustion; and normally this results in around a 1500-1 to 2000-1 volume change; or correspondingly - a pressure differential of up to 3000 psi max. This volume and pressure swing can be easily converted into energy using an ICE or turbine engine, as is done in power plants all over the world. This true with or without the heat normally associated with explosions and Boyle's Law. In the spirit of 'swords to plowshares' - the implication of the aforementioned phase-change, of the bomb-anomaly variety is, of course, that when an engine is based on a similar chemical reaction - then the Carnot limitations and other normal measures of energy/heat content will not apply in the same way as with real heat engines. In other words, our normal assumptions about the relationship of heat energy to kinetic energy are flawed in this limited instance of peroxide-based chemicals. This phenomenon - which does utilize phase-change advantageously, does not suffer the huge losses of compression in an engine, but the thermodynamic energy balance is more complicated. This phenomenon is scientifically known as 'Entropic Explosion'. It is reminiscent of the rapid reaction that produces gas in the safety air-bags of cars during accidents, where one does not want to substitute a lesser burn-injury for a major impact injury. The Entropic Explosion (EE) phenomenon may serve to explain how HOOH can be used as a monopropellant rocket fuel when its apparent energy content is low - much lower than the specific impulse of exhaust would indicate. Compared to burning hydrogen in oxygen, the specific impulse of HOOH monopropellant shows about a five to one net advantage in anti-entropy, when graphed against heat energy content of the two base fuel systems. IOW, Specific impulse converts directly into torque, and the fact that peroxide has 13 times less heat energy but only two to three times less isp, means it is five times more efficient (COP is arguably ~five) and "might" lead to a complicated hybrid device, incorporating the heat pump, which appears to be overunity. If a fuel has a COP of five, and a heat pump has a COP of five, then even a low efficiency engine and add-on system might suffice to both make the fuel (on-the-fly) and achieve the same kind of self-running which can be mis-labeled as "perpetual motion". But to bring readers here up to date on what is probably a new concept to many (i.e. never before mentioned on this forum, as far as I can tell): An "Entropic Explosion" is defined simply as an explosion in which the reactants undergo a very large change in volume and resultant pressure - but without releasing a correspondingly large amount of heat. You will sometimes see the label "isothermal" expansion applied to this, but that does not convey the same vigorous connotation. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 13:20:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27LKElq023603; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:20:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27LK85B023542; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:20:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:20:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:20:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-reply-to: <45EEF4ED.9040803@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <99yLUB.A.svF.Iyy7FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73519 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > As I said, I had written up a reply to some things you said earlier. > So, with extensive revisions, here it is. > > First, as an aside, I don't think Einstein originated the idea of the > interchangeability of mass and energy. I have been told (by someone > sort of reliable, IIRC) that there had been at least one prior > published derivation, and I have the general impression that more than > one person had worked on it; an open question at the time was what the > coefficient should be. IIRC previous derivations had led to > coefficients around (1/2)c^2, and certainly less than 1, unlike > Einstein's result, which put it at exactly 1(c^2). Don't ask me for > the details of the earlier work, though; I don't have them. In Max Born's book _Einstein's Theory of Relativity_ there is a derivation of E = mc^2 without any special relativity concepts. see p. 283-286 of the 1962 edition. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 13:33:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27LXDB2014345; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:33:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27LXBUF014327; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:33:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:33:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=fL3L4ynnKfSzqXHY4KH6WIxn1bWsSukBSZTuziB3PSjuyMJl8fyCIZtMwX4KGLqSXomvH1bC402vhVvzxkJz5LqVHMg5tWrRdgCrWxjBPKCyAp624i3PN0kJ9dig9cgtRTjhxbmsG7nluj9WbUkpQJTHRymLt8PdNK+l9zPKOTs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=tnSlq+CxfMlgFrB7ZJgY8LQbfNzRZQF6jel7A+UT2zSOec+ZHLotxfnjY0gSQvDhuotnG305lfX+H5iymk5x0+vSzDIkGtc0jnEj07XMdrqDDaDBX9fum8axn5uWmcjtPLj//Q249iNjDrT7CfrnOloxWDys1nndzZcCu9FMNfI= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:33:04 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-Reply-To: <45EED077.9040308@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_204608_13305613.1173303184286" References: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45EE2B91.2060302@pobox.com> <45EED077.9040308@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73520 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_204608_13305613.1173303184286 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/8/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > So how about you try working through the mathematics of the > contradictions you think you've found in relativity, and post the > results here? > > I mean, work them through using the Lorentz transforms. I'll be happy > to argue them with you, if you'll actually work through the math rather > than just blowing off the calculations and calling it all "bunk". Here's the thing though. I'm not attacking the equations as self contradictory, I'm bypassing all of that by pointing out that there is no way for them to be correct because it is well known that SR functions based on the idea that you can not assess the rate of time in another frame without distortion. The reason that instantaneous communication is said to break down SR is not that it is instantaneous but that it presupposes no distortion by effects such as the Doppler effect. The methods I have given allow observers in 2 different frames to observe each others rate of time and agree fully. This can be achieved by observing travel towards and away and working out the Doppler effect as I have laid out*, or by communication during a flyby, if the flyby is incredibly distant then even a flyby at .99c could last a while, if very close it may be fleeting but could pretty much fit the bill for being practically instantaneous too. The 3 different ways are either: 1:Use a computer to work out the level of Doppler distortion,2: Communicate to the other frame it's apparent time rate as you observe it and visa versa, if both is you get the same score then there is no time dilation only Doppler effects. 3: And finally have 2 positions A & B in the same reference frame measure the apparent rate of time of a vehicle moving from one to the other, the Doppler effect is positive for A and negative for B so they can be added together to remove the Doppler component. Basically any way you slice it, there is no way to stop an accurate observation of the time rate another frame is experiencing which means that if any time dilation is present it is observable and agreed on by both parties, it is absolute. ------=_Part_204608_13305613.1173303184286 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/8/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
So how about you try working through the mathematics of the
contradictions you think you've found in relativity, and post the
results here?

I mean, work them through using the Lorentz transforms.  I'll be happy
to argue them with you, if you'll actually work through the math rather
than just blowing off the calculations and calling it all "bunk".

Here's the thing though.
I'm not attacking the equations as self contradictory, I'm bypassing all of that by pointing out that there is no way for them to be correct because it is well known that SR functions based on the idea that you can not assess the rate of time in another frame without distortion.

The reason that instantaneous communication is said to break down SR is not that it is instantaneous but that it presupposes no distortion by effects such as the Doppler effect.

The methods I have given allow observers in 2 different frames to observe each others rate of time and agree fully.

This can be achieved by observing travel towards and away and working out the Doppler effect as I have laid out*, or by communication during a flyby, if the flyby is incredibly distant then even a flyby at .99c could last a while, if very close it may be fleeting but could pretty much fit the bill for being practically instantaneous too.

The 3 different ways are either: 1:Use a computer to work out the level of Doppler distortion,2: Communicate to the other frame it's apparent time rate as you observe it and visa versa, if both is you get the same score then there is no time dilation only Doppler effects.
3: And finally have 2 positions A & B in the same reference frame measure the apparent rate of time of a vehicle moving from one to the other, the Doppler effect is positive for A and negative for B so they can be added together to remove the Doppler component.

Basically any way you slice it, there is no way to stop an accurate observation of the time rate another frame is experiencing which means that if any time dilation is present it  is observable and agreed on by both parties, it is absolute.




------=_Part_204608_13305613.1173303184286-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 13:33:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27LXKiL014412; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:33:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27LXHEO014374; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:33:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:33:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:33:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-reply-to: <45EEF4ED.9040803@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <0O2UqB.A.cgD.b-y7FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73521 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > In Max Born's book _Einstein's Theory of Relativity_ there is a > derivation of E = mc^2 without any special relativity concepts. > see p. 283-286 of the 1962 edition. > > Harry BTW, this book also provides an excellent introduction to the science of motion known as mechanics. Great reading for anyone who wants to understand the fundamental concepts of mechanics. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 13:44:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27LhvSG025043; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:43:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27Lht3j025018; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:43:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:43:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Half full or half empty Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:43:29 -0600 Message-ID: <004d01c76101$afbbf1e0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45EF16C3.8090504@pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdg8bopL0elkGVKQfOr1cvWhqAc4wADgIjA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73522 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steven, > The calculations were _not_ irrelevant. By ignoring them you also ignore the answer to your objection that fission and fusion "both release energy". It is irrelevant since you are not computing the fusion for making the uranium and comparing it to the fission for turning it into something else. Uranium doesn't magically appear in the Universe. The disputer here is not whether energy is released from fusion and fission. The empirical evidence shows it clearly does. The dispute is whether or not E=mc^2 is explaining the physics of these processes. Since you cannot produce an equation for the fission and fusion of uranium using E=mc^2, it is irrelevant to this discussion. > You snipped the calculations that went with this. Why? They are irrelevant. We are discussing E=mc^2. Unless you want to present a fission and fusion equation for the same element, there is nothing to compare to see if E=mc^2 is working or not. >> This is not observed in any >> atomic reaction. In all cases of fission, more energy is released than >> absorbed. > Fission of nuclei HEAVIER THAN IRON. All fission. There is no fission reaction that releases less energy than is absorbed. > Lighter nuclei DO NOT NATURALLY FISSION because it's an _endothermic_ reaction in that case. So what? We are discussing the processes of fission and fusion, not what atoms easily fuse and fizz. We are trying to either prove or disprove that E=mc^2 accurately reflects reality. None of your case is relevant to this discussion. You are trying to change the subject, I am trying to keep the focus. > > > How is it that both fusion and fission reaction result in a net energy >> release > Fusion followed by fission of the same nucleus do _NOT_ both release energy. Now we are getting somewhere. How do you explain the fact that a fused nucleus has less mass than the constituent nucleons, but the fizzed nucleon still releases energy instead of absorbs it? Work with a single isotope, which you know will fizz, such as uranium 235. What is the total mass deficit, and what is the total energy absorbed when the nucleus breaks up? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 14:21:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l27ML7lY016198; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:21:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l27ML4Za016145; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:21:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:21:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qWh3c5igzNyR1u/It1m0DNSwhNoYP1/pRhbpgKCLnJC7FGtFIXEDAdZyzunnRqDF6GZumOzW2i6XblPUQOBBAfdmTcM8HNhtLFG6fCm8epA9HxP1JPjprGZ88bHYgt7pMjjDxxKIHr9IgwEG8m34d5zc3DghvomndT1QYE35U1U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FvbIPQj628RZK6zgxnUzs7LcFPClPCkz9j8+JyrzGn/HPtHwh9J570yAldJl6FKmVuJybDr0W2lpYZS2PzMMHWO9h7DL1tmgwD3WjqLjEjvnHs77ofXABejQX954UKrK+n+Mx+Lcuw8MSAz6AUvjhqHEEV0pcLXEOKDtJY2YOAg= Message-ID: <45EF3AC3.2010500@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:20:51 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Quantum Physics question References: <004d01c76101$afbbf1e0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004d01c76101$afbbf1e0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73523 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I was asking Dr. Quantum about intrinsic electron spin, +1/2 and -1/2, in relation to the electrons magnetic dipole moment. Dr. Quantum said hypothetically that if all the spins suddenly reversed in a magnet then the net magnetic field would also reverse. Great, so then I ask Dr. Quantum how we or even the electron knows it's a +1/2 or -1/2 spin? What is the spin relative to? Lets say at a given moment the magnetic field from one electron intrinsic spin is pointing north and the magnetic field from another electron intrinsic spin is pointing west. So then what's spin of each electron since they are point at 90 degrees difference relative to each other? Dr. Quantum said --> Dr. Quantum said: ----------- They always will flip 180 degrees. From say spin up to spin down. They can't flip 90 degrees but they can be observed to be up or down with respect to any direction. . In the quantum physics of spin each spin state can be expressed as up and down with respect to any direction of space. Hence a spin up along the z direction will consist of both spin up and down along the x or y direction. That's where the mathematics of spinors comes into play. If you have say 100 of them with spin up along Z and then you put them into a magnetic field in the X direction, these spins will enter into superpositions of spin +1/2 in the X direction and -1/2 in the X direction. If you then observe them you will find roughly 50% +1/2 and 50% -1/2 along X. ----------- Could someone please explain what the above means because it doesn't make sense to me, yet? Is he saying half the electrons will align *against* the magnetic field? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 18:14:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l282E8vr007148; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:14:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l282E22Z007064; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:14:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:14:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: "Vortex" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:13:54 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <-WnG1.A.DuB.qF37FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73524 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy Status: O X-Status: There has been lively debate in regards to whether E=mc^2 is an accurate mathematical equation to describe whether energy is actually being converted back and forth between mass and energy. No doubt many are likely to consider it outrageous to challenge considering who came up with the equation in the first place. The following questions I want to ask are not only addressed to Stephen Lawrence, but to Dave Thompson and anyone else who would care to add their two cents worth: I presume no one disputes the fact that individual masses belonging to neutrons and protons contained within atomic nuclei become less as these sub atomic particles are "fused" – that is, up to the element of Fe, iron. It is my understanding that Fe is considered to reside at the bottom of the so-called "energy well." As such, collectively speaking, protons and neutrons within Fe are presumably considered to be their lightest "mass" as measured individually. They can never exhibit less "mass" individually when measured within other non-Fe elements. I also presume no one cares to dispute the fact that individual protons and neutrons pertaining to nuclei greater than Fe suddenly reverse that trend. They begin to systematically increase in individual mass as elements gradually climb up the atomic number scale. I've never felt a desire to challenge these assumptions, and still don't. However, something *is* beginning to twitch in the back of my mind. First, the setup: When a highly unstable radioactive element such as U235 is suddenly created, such as when a single stray neutron invades the nucleus, we all know that the atom shatters violently creating a random collection of smaller nuclei, that along with a deadly collection of independent neutrons, thus the "chain reaction" is born. And here's my conundrum: When these smaller atomic nuclei are created wouldn't that also mean that the individual protons and neutrons within these lighter elements have to suddenly regain lost mass if their atomic number is less that Fe? WHAT KINDS OR WHAT RATIO OF LIGHTER ELEMENTS TEND TO BE GENERATED? On average which side of the Fe "energy well" are these lighter elements created on? I assume it's a very messy/random affair where all sorts of lighter elements are created, where many created elements are indeed less than the atomic number of Fe, but that's speculation on my part. I could be wrong. If, however, this *is* the case, where more elements lighter than Fe do tend to be created on average, it does beg a nagging question as to where the extra "mass" suddenly comes from in order to replenish the lost "mass" when these smaller elements are created from the demise of a U235 atom. On top of that, shouldn't all of the independently created neutrons ejected from the destroyed U235 atom also suddenly possess a much higher atomic mass, specifically that of an individual neutron? If memory serves me correctly the mass of an independent neutron is one of the heaviest (per individual neutron mass) in the table of elements. Where does all this "mass" come from, particularly since so much destructive radioactive energy is being released as U235 destroys itself. What am I missing here? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 18:30:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l282TuZm018781; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:29:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l282Tpx8018746; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:29:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:29:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=NHAGvMOV7nCJdwHwRA7zX+19wmBkoAxvC8ecIrIyJqx/XiK4HdMa+8AbaHaKCGhqHGC8SZK1EhEUBoDOPT0opuuZUaFQlS6qiDunNVCJHA7w0mKqoqNFys/wWGAxO1UM3bJ8sH13XMURmmx6A5HQGiM0K64paraP3uCBQRFnQjc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ttbBbsCCL/P1oQr16319iiAnv8xaIR8q6FW1JbepYvO41cQaVa/kY9+E0sYPpRQgDnRKc35wxm5RR2CTUNHkHB3muZb7UDzW1HQnWwgIxl5knH+AZNH8CYmWvjvx85AQHb4qx6WLvgqQ+ifvXMZvc3winagcwQxmEXVAsFpTghA= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:29:49 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Brown's Gas burns hotter than the sun? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070307211442.01a41358@rogers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_208882_7955724.1173320989114" References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070307211442.01a41358@rogers.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73526 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_208882_7955724.1173320989114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hmmm, I think I recall hearing they indeed they will melt such impossible things, but won't burn your hand, and indeed that's the claim. Doesn't seem that heat is the right word. Here is what a quick search turned up from Decker in '99: Hi Folks! If you are interested in Browns gas generators, an email came in to sell 3 of them; Well, its interesting...I call it a molecular zipper since it implodes and literally zips molecules together in totally unique ways. I've tinkered with the one that the Tesla society used to have, it is interesting to play the flame across your hand, it doesn't burn and water pours off...then with that same flame, I cut a soda can....I understand it will weld brick to glass, metal to brick, all kinds of objects... Unfortunately the new agers have gotten into the act making all kinds of outrageous claims including free energy...I don't KNOW that any of those are true, only what I have seen myself... The following is an email I received saying they want to sell their Browns Gas generators, please respond to them directly if you are interested; I am writing on behalf of Alvin Crosby. Alvin is used to manufacture hydrox label (brown gas) in the early 90. We have three machines for sale. Below is a specification of the machines: Two of HSX 5000 Not working, need re-plumbing otherwise complete. price US$ 500.00/each and FOB. Performance specification * 5000 litres/hour or 177 cubic/hour * power requirements 50-60 hz * 3 O, voltage 200/400 * VA max 8000 * Dimension H x W x D = 1100 x 725 x 960 * Weight: 1000 pound One of HSX 2000 Not working, nevertheless in a good order and low hours. Price US$ 1000.00 and FOB Performance specification * 2000 litres/hour or 71 cubic/hour * power requirements 50-60 hz * 3 O, voltage 200/400 * VA max 10,000. * Dimension H x W x D = 1100 x 630 x 775 * Weight: 620 pound The above machines are ideal for the series researcher. Please reply this Email after you receive this message. Kind regards Cindy Alvin R. Crosby P.O.Box 89 141 Torbay Auckland 1310 New Zealand ether@cybernet.co.nz http://www.keelynet.com/interact/archive/00001670.htm On 3/8/07, Philip Winestone wrote: > > All I know is that a few years ago I stood beside a "Brown's Gas > Generator" and watched in awe as a colourless flame MELTED a > firebrick in just a few seconds. > > Not sure about its applicability in an internal combustion engine, > but it may be applicable in a new form of external combustion engine. > > P. > > > At 02:09 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote: > >http://www.dailybeat.net/media/706/The-water-fueled-car.html > > > >yet another example of shoddy reporting. > > > >-- > >That which yields isn't always weak. > > ------=_Part_208882_7955724.1173320989114 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hmmm, I think I recall hearing they indeed they will melt such impossible things, but won't burn your hand, and indeed that's the claim.
Doesn't seem that heat is the right word.

Here is what a quick search turned up from Decker in '99:

Hi Folks!

If you are interested in Browns gas generators, an email came in to sell
3 of them;

Well, its interesting...I call it a molecular zipper since it implodes
and literally zips molecules together in totally unique ways. I've
tinkered with the one that the Tesla society used to have, it is
interesting to play the flame across your hand, it doesn't burn and
water pours off...then with that same flame, I cut a soda can....I
understand it will weld brick to glass, metal to brick, all kinds of
objects...

Unfortunately the new agers have gotten into the act making all kinds of
outrageous claims including free energy...I don't KNOW that any of those
are true, only what I have seen myself...

The following is an email I received saying they want to sell their
Browns Gas generators, please respond to them directly if you are
interested;

I am writing on behalf of Alvin Crosby. Alvin is used to manufacture
hydrox label (brown gas) in the early 90. We have three machines for
sale. Below is a specification of the machines:

Two of HSX 5000
Not working, need re-plumbing otherwise complete. price US$ 500.00/each
and FOB.
Performance specification
* 5000 litres/hour or 177 cubic/hour
* power requirements 50-60 hz
* 3 O, voltage 200/400
* VA max 8000
* Dimension H x W x D = 1100 x 725 x 960
* Weight: 1000 pound

One of HSX 2000
Not working, nevertheless in a good order and low hours. Price US$
1000.00 and FOB
Performance specification
* 2000 litres/hour or 71 cubic/hour
* power requirements 50-60 hz
* 3 O, voltage 200/400
* VA max 10,000.
* Dimension H x W x D = 1100 x 630 x 775
* Weight: 620 pound

The above machines are ideal for the series researcher. Please reply
this Email after you receive this
message.

Kind regards
Cindy

Alvin R. Crosby
P.O.Box 89 141
Torbay
Auckland 1310
New Zealand

ether@cybernet.co.nz

http://www.keelynet.com/interact/archive/00001670.htm

On 3/8/07, Philip Winestone <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
All I know is that a few years ago I stood beside a "Brown's Gas
Generator" and watched in awe as a colourless flame MELTED a
firebrick in just a few seconds.

Not sure about its applicability in an internal combustion engine,
but it may be applicable in a new form of external combustion engine.

P.


At 02:09 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
>http://www.dailybeat.net/media/706/The-water-fueled-car.html
>
>yet another example of shoddy reporting.
>
>--
>That which yields isn't always weak.


------=_Part_208882_7955724.1173320989114-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 18:17:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l282HDsW009093; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:17:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l282HCw7009076; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:17:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:17:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=yI+CwMrQ+8832FN14AmQxE73dmRnbQpAsqa5uytl/Pxy9+DZlKJTo5EK+yfO4mD3AO5vLrlrVPBZubOTLLQiMIGiHvGdWgADH5vsrHpDQTlWcC/K8HdUQT8ycEGfzeD3QM52HvERsVCECKHEdYwxBMQLN19tlCUDM9KvHRkETbg= ; X-YMail-OSG: C7cbGfgVM1khzq5hF5LmAzGrrl0AabpnjCaN6vjXDFNr0qqJvRsqM7CrQie_7nN.Sw-- Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070307211442.01a41358@rogers.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:17:15 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Brown's Gas burns hotter than the sun? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73525 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: All I know is that a few years ago I stood beside a "Brown's Gas Generator" and watched in awe as a colourless flame MELTED a firebrick in just a few seconds. Not sure about its applicability in an internal combustion engine, but it may be applicable in a new form of external combustion engine. P. At 02:09 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote: >http://www.dailybeat.net/media/706/The-water-fueled-car.html > >yet another example of shoddy reporting. > >-- >That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 20:48:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l284mMOm019644; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:48:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l284mJnr019631; Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:48:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:48:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 04:47:24 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73527 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:48:47 +0100 "Michel Jullian" wrote: >To avoid the voltage drop associated with a diode, which >is huge compared to the noise signal, one could use smart >auto-controled switches (fets) instead, which would only >connect the noise source to the capacitor when the source >is at a higher potential than the capacitor. This kind of >diodelesss rectification scheme is used in low voltage >switchmode power supplies, and is called "synchronous >rectification". > >A kind of "sample and hold" which would resample every >time the noise signal gets higher than the storage >voltage. > >Now would the whole system be able to power itself plus >some excess in isothermal conditions, where the switches >themselves exhibit thermal noise? That's the question. > >Michel > Charlie's comment 1: I think that gates and drains on one buss / sources on the other buss FETs could substitute for diodes in an array. Johnson noise in the channels will be rectified as it interacts with the gate. This would be harder to fabricate even if the gate is a metal mesh. Sampling and holding is not needed. >> > If rectifying noise is to work, I should think you'd >>want to use >> > something (like a Schottky diode) with a very low >>forward drop. >> > >> > Second, nearly all your noise is very close to zero >>volts, and close >> > to zero volts, diodes are close to linear. They >>conduct as something >> > like I = I_s * (exp(x*v) - 1) where "x" is a constant >>I don't feel >> > like writing out. This is from a book but the general >>form is easy >> > enough to verify in a lab (though tedious). Very >>close to zero volts, >> > this formula is very close to >> > >> > I = I_s * x * v >> > >> > or, in other words, the diode is (nearly) linear at >>zero volts. That >> > suggests that it might leak really badly in an >>application where >> > the signal strength is totally minute. >> > >> > These may just be practical concerns but it's not >>clear how to get >> > past them. Charlie's comment 2: I_s is the saturation current carried by thermal electron / hole pairs under reverse bias short of avalanche breakdown. It is directly proportional to junction area. A smaller junction diode will be more nonlinear. This is one way that small diodes operate reasonably at small power levels of Johnson noise. The other ways that small diodes operate reasonably are (2) low capacitance to handle the full bandwidth and (3) Reasonable power density for 1 / 2 kTB per junction. The smallness of the diodes allows a greater number to be fabricated in a given area or volume for more aggregation of 1 / 2 kTB power. >> > I don't know enough about LEDs to answer this >>additional question: Can >> > an LED operate "backwards", as a solar cell? This may >>be a concern at >> > very low emission rates. >> >> >> >> As you pointed out, LED's emit appreciable energy above >>forward voltage. >> Although according to real experiments and Spice sims >>the LED just does not >> suddenly go from emitting to not emitting photons. In >>fact, there's no magical >> level where an LED suddenly changes. >> Charlie's comment 3: Nanometer scale LEDs would also have sharper nonlinearity. They may have enough internal resistance to simplify the fabrication by not needing individual resistors. >> >> >> > > >> > > Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room >>temperature in >> > > complete darkness (no solar) there are visible >>light photons >> > > striking the cell. I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm >>common solar cell >> > > would generate roughly 1E-30 volts. Not much >>voltage, lol, but >> > > still something nonetheless. The amount of >>radiated blackbody >> > > energy is small in the visible region. Although >>the FIR region is >> > > another story. Both sides of a thin sheet of 1m x >>1m material >> > > radiates roughly 920 watts continuously in complete >>darkness at room >> > > temperature. Technology is improving, thereby >>allowing photovoltaic >> > > cells to capture lower and lower frequencies. A >>Canadian university >> > > succeeded in creating a 1355 nm photovoltaic cell! >> That's only >> > > 1/11th the wavelength away from the peak 15000 nm >>920 watts/m^2 >> > > blackbody 300 K radiation. BTW, blackbody radiation >>at 1355 nm is >> > > 2E+18 times greater than visible region of 600 nm. >>To calculate this >> > > I compared the radiation from 16667 to 16677 cm^-1, >>which is >> > > 3.907E-29 watts to 7380 to 7390 cm^-1, which is >>7.499e-11 watts. >> > > >> > > University of Toronto in Canada achieves 1355 nm >>photovoltaic cell: >> > > http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/4/1/7/1 >> > > >> > > Eventually technology will reach the peak 15000 nm >>region where a >> > > thin double sided 1m x 1m sheet receives ~920 >>watts. It's difficult >> > > for a person to believe they are surrounded by a >>source "free >> > > energy" because we don't see such energy with our >>eyes. >> > >> > This one still really bugs me. I don't understand >>solar cells well >> > enough to know if this could work, but it just seems >>/wrong/ to me >> > that a cell at the same temperature as a blackbody >>could generate >> > useful electricity from the blackbody's radiation! >> (Even a solar >> > cell made in Canada!) :-) Charlie's comment 4: The Canadians should observe ambient IR output from their photocell which could then be called a thermovoltaic cell. I will visit their website immediately after posting this. Later comments here indicate that the Canadians are persuing ambient IR power. I believe that this is another way to recover energy from Carnot death. I would fabricate many thin and wide junctions and ohmic contact layers in a multilayer structure that would put many cells in series. I accept the concept because there is an asymmetry of materials which will impose an asymmitry of behavior on elecritity producing processes. >> >> >> >> The problem with typical visible light photovoltaic >>cells is there's hardly any >> black body radiation in the visible light spectrum. I >>calculated/guesstimated >> that such a cell would generate less than 1E-30 DC >>volts. On the other hand the >> university in Canada made a significant breakthrough in >>photovoltaic cells by >> allowing such cells efficiently absorb up to 1355 nm. >>Now that 1355 nm doesn't >> sound like much as compared to 600 nm visible light, but >>blackbody radiation at >> 1355 nm is 2E+18 times greater than at 600 nm visible >>light. >> >> To give an idea just how much energy is available from >>blackbody radiation alone >> --> A two sided thin sheet of material at room >>temperature (300K) radiates ~920 >> watts, which is peak at around 15000 nm. It will be very >>interesting when >> technology increases from 1355 nm 15000 nm! :-) Last >>week I came across a forum >> posting about the Canadian breakthrough, but cannot find >>it for the life of me. >> There were physicists (or at least they sounded like >>physicists) saying things >> that absolutely shocked me. Statements to the effect, >>"we're almost to the point >> of collecting continuous ambient temperature radiation." >> >> Nature's not that cruel, right? I'm mean, surely we >>could design a device to >> collect energy from a room full of bouncing basketballs. >> What about large >> molecules? What about typical air molecules? What >>about room temperature atoms >> vibrating at ~20 THz? What about vibrating electrons >>traveling ~1/200 c? Is >> there a sudden magical size where nature says, "No! >>These particles are off >> limits. You cannot have their energy!" I don't thinks >>so because of the simple >> fact that a capacitor is able to charge to a certain >>point due to thermal >> electrical noise. >> >> IMHO the task is in trying to find a design that is able >>to capture enough >> ambient temperature energy without an appreciable loss. >> Some realistic >> possibilities would include an LED array consisting of a >>trillion LED & R units. >> Or perhaps improving photovoltaic cells to reach 15000 >>nm's. Those methods >> sound complex. Truly if this was my task alone then I >>would first begin by >> learning how to create a simple diode. I already know >>how to use a computer to >> operate a circuit through the parallel port or USB. >>Therefore, I would design a >> device that allowed the computer to create micro scale >>diodes and resistors. >> Initially this may sound to complex and expensive, but I >>would beg to disagree. >> I like the old saying, "Where there's a will there's a >>way." >> >> Truthfully I see a clear method of extracting such >>ambient temperature by means >> of magnetic avalanches, but time will tell. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 01:30:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l289U0Tn017383; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:30:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l289TvHS017357; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:29:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:29:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E2EEED.9050901@gmail.com> <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:31:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l289TsvQ017323 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73528 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Limited financial means are not a problem for a proof of principle experiment IMHO. OK let's assume one is able to extract energy from a single heat source, even if serious doubts subsist. What would be the practical use, considering there already exist compact highly overunity commercial devices able to pump kilowatts of energy from ambient temperature air? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > Michel Jullian wrote: > --- > > To avoid the voltage drop associated with a diode, which is huge compared to > the noise signal, one could use smart auto-controled switches (fets) instead, > which would only connect the noise source to the capacitor when the source is at > a higher potential than the capacitor. This kind of diodelesss rectification > scheme is used in low voltage switchmode power supplies, and is called > "synchronous rectification". > > > > A kind of "sample and hold" which would resample every time the noise signal > gets higher than the storage voltage. > > > > Now would the whole system be able to power itself plus some excess in > isothermal conditions, where the switches themselves exhibit thermal noise? > That's the question. > > > > Michel > --- > > > Those are great ideas. I think present problems are due to inefficiencies. > Inefficiencies of wires (copper), inefficiencies of semiconductors, > inefficiencies of storage devices. It will be interesting to see how this all > plays out in the future when technology reaches a certain level. Room > temperature superconducting wires would be a nice big leap for mankind. > > For the moment, it appears the financially limited lone research can only > *easily* create devices that capture infinitesimal amounts of "free energy" at > room temperatures. Of course, if our planet were hotter then such a task would > be easier-- Vn = sqrt(4 K T R df). As way of example, the blackbody radiation > level in the visible region alone at 1000 K is 0.1 W/m^2. Compare that to 4E-23 > W/m^ at 300 K. That's a huge difference. > > > Regards, > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul Lowrance" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:36 PM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > > > > > >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >>> Couple quick comments/questions... > >>> > >>> energymover@gmail.com wrote: > >>> > Hi, > >>> > > >>> > This email will describe the simplest (as far as I know) method of > >>> > capturing and storing ambient temperature energy. Hopefully those > >>> > wanting to reply could first read the entire email since I'll > >>> > address various possible questions later in this email. > >>> > > >>> > I was hoping at least someone would have answered my previously > >>> > posted question to nail down their stance if they believe it's > >>> > possible to capture and store energy taken from ambient > >>> > temperature. Since nobody posted his or her stance I'll just go > >>> > ahead and post the proof. This could be a fun ride, as debating > >>> > experience shows most people won't be nailed, which allows them to > >>> > weasel out of any situation, which is probably one reason there are > >>> > so many formulations of the 2nd law. There's a well-taken 2nd law > >>> > quote in the physics community by physicist P.W. Bridgman, "There > >>> > are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been > >>> > discussions of it." > >>> > > >>> > Personally it's not my present goal or interest to focus on the 2nd > >>> > law. Truthfully, there are too many 2nd law formulations, as one > >>> > physicist may adhere to a stricter interpretation than another. My > >>> > only assertion is that energy can be captured from ambient > >>> > temperature, and here is how. > >>> > > >>> > Here is a clear-cut method to demonstrate the assertion. Using a > >>> > low noise high gain amp and oscilloscope view a resistors thermal > >>> > noise. This is an extremely simple task. I would be more than happy > >>> > to provide anyone legitimately interested individual with a simple > >>> > circuits to view such noise. You will see the thermal noise voltage > >>> > fluctuating in a random unpredictable fashion. Guess what, you are > >>> > witnessing a direct conversion from ambient temperature energy to > >>> > battery storage. A capacitor stores energy in the form of electric > >>> > potential. So where's the capacitor you ask. All measuring devices > >>> > from common amps to oscilloscopes have input capacitance. > >>> > >>> 10x scope probes run around 10-15 pF, IIRC. I think a 100x probe is > >>> rather lower. > >>> > >>> Opamp inputs tend to be a lot lower, tho, but still definitely finite > >>> and large enough to have a macroscopic impact on a circuit. > >>> > >>> So, yeah, you're seeing a cap charge and discharge, alright... > >>> > >>> > >>> > If you want more capacitance than simply place a small capacitor > >>> > across the resistor. You will still see the thermal noise voltage, > >>> > but the average rms voltage amplitude will decrease. There's now a > >>> > total of 4 pF if your amp has 2 pF input and you add a 2pF across > >>> > the resistor. Lets say at a given moment you see 10 mV across the > >>> > capacitor. At that moment you could unplug the capacitor to claim > >>> > your energy. LOL, indeed it's a small amount of energy, but it is > >>> > true that you actually captured energy from ambient temperature. If > >>> > you want more energy then simply make more devices. > >>> > > >>> > Please note I am not stating this is your "smoking gun!" This is > >>> > ***MERELY*** to demonstrate the possibility, to let people know it > >>> > is indeed possible!! If you have the money and technology such as > >>> > IBM then it's possible to make trillions of such devices in a small > >>> > area. One device could be a nanometer. One hundred trillion 2 pF > >>> > capacitors at 10 mV each contains 10 mJ's of energy. If memory > >>> > holds true, the human eye in complete darkness can see a flash of > >>> > red focused light of less than 1 nJ. One 780 nm red light photon > >>> > contains just 2.5E-19 J's! > >>> > > >>> > Ten mJ's may not sound like much, but it merely demonstrates that > >>> > you can capture energy from ambient temperature. This is not the > >>> > best method of capturing ambient temperature energy, but again it > >>> > merely proves the assertion. > >>> > > >>> > Again, in the nutshell, a resistor generates thermal voltage > >>> > noise. All measuring devices from common amps to oscilloscopes to > >>> > multimeters always have a certain amount of capacitance. When you > >>> > measured that thermal noise voltage that capacitor in the measuring > >>> > device is charged to that value. You can also add your own capacitor > >>> > across the resistor. Your capacitor would be completely discharged > >>> > before you add it, but at any given moment once the capacitor is > >>> > connected to the resistor their will be a certain charged voltage on > >>> > the capacitor. At any given moment you could unplug the capacitor to > >>> > retain such energy. You could perform the same experiment with an > >>> > inductor since all measuring devices have inductance. > >>> > > >>> > What you do with such energy is your choice. One hundred 2 pF > >>> > capacitors charged to 10 mV is very usable. That's equal to a 200 > >>> > farad capacitor charged to 10 mV. You could discharge the cap > >>> > energy to an inductor followed by a quick field collapse to generate > >>> > appreciable amount of voltage across a smaller cap. Or you could > >>> > place a percentage of the caps in series to increase the voltage, > >>> > etc. etc. > >>> > > >>> > Skeptics may wonder just how much energy is required to "unplug" the > >>> > capacitor. There is no theoretical limit. > >>> > >>> Right -- if there's a fatal flaw in the scheme, the energy to unplug > >>> the capacitor is _not_ that flaw! > >>> > >>> > >>> > How much energy does it require to move a nanometer filament a > >>> > fraction of a nanometer? History demonstrates that the amount of > >>> > energy required from an electrical switch has drastically > >>> > decreased. Consider the FET, which on average has roughly 1E+12 ohms > >>> > DC resistance. Sure, the FET has capacitance, but that in itself is > >>> > stored energy. This is akin to how much energy is require to stop an > >>> > object. One might think it requires a lot pressure to stop the > >>> > object. Consider a spinning wheel next to a table. On the table is a > >>> > hollow metal tube welded to the table. To stop the spinning wheel > >>> > one merely needs to slide a metal bar in the hollow tube extending > >>> > out the other end of the hollow tube, which jams in the wheels > >>> > spokes, which abruptly stops the spinning wheel. The only amount of > >>> > energy required to stop the wheel merely depends how much energy was > >>> > required to slide the metal bar to jam the spokes. > >>> > > >>> > On many occasions I've described a device that has far higher > >>> > potential for "free energy" than the aforementioned example. The > >>> > above is to provide a simple undeniable clear-cut example. Of course > >>> > there will always be those who will deny anything that goes against > >>> > their beliefs. A more practical device that requires ***NO*** > >>> > energy such as from a switch would be my resistor and LED device. > >>> > The thermal voltage noise from the resistor will generate thermal > >>> > current in the LED. All LED's emit photos at any applied voltage. It > >>> > just turns out the LED is exponentially more efficient above the > >>> > forward voltage level. In such a device the LED would emit more > >>> > photons when connected to a resistor of high resistance. > >>> > >>> I still have some problems with this one. > >>> > >>> First, an LED typically has a large forward drop (or at least they > >>> used to, I assume that hasn't changed in the last decade or so). If > >>> there's any effect at all, most of it's going to get cut off due to > >>> that big drop. > >>> > >>> If rectifying noise is to work, I should think you'd want to use > >>> something (like a Schottky diode) with a very low forward drop. > >>> > >>> Second, nearly all your noise is very close to zero volts, and close > >>> to zero volts, diodes are close to linear. They conduct as something > >>> like I = I_s * (exp(x*v) - 1) where "x" is a constant I don't feel > >>> like writing out. This is from a book but the general form is easy > >>> enough to verify in a lab (though tedious). Very close to zero volts, > >>> this formula is very close to > >>> > >>> I = I_s * x * v > >>> > >>> or, in other words, the diode is (nearly) linear at zero volts. That > >>> suggests that it might leak really badly in an application where > >>> the signal strength is totally minute. > >>> > >>> These may just be practical concerns but it's not clear how to get > >>> past them. > >>> > >>> I don't know enough about LEDs to answer this additional question: Can > >>> an LED operate "backwards", as a solar cell? This may be a concern at > >>> very low emission rates. > >> > >> > >> As you pointed out, LED's emit appreciable energy above forward voltage. > >> Although according to real experiments and Spice sims the LED just does not > >> suddenly go from emitting to not emitting photons. In fact, there's no magical > >> level where an LED suddenly changes. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > > >>> > Lets consider photovoltaic cells. Even at room temperature in > >>> > complete darkness (no solar) there are visible light photons > >>> > striking the cell. I calculate a 10 cm x 10 cm common solar cell > >>> > would generate roughly 1E-30 volts. Not much voltage, lol, but > >>> > still something nonetheless. The amount of radiated blackbody > >>> > energy is small in the visible region. Although the FIR region is > >>> > another story. Both sides of a thin sheet of 1m x 1m material > >>> > radiates roughly 920 watts continuously in complete darkness at room > >>> > temperature. Technology is improving, thereby allowing photovoltaic > >>> > cells to capture lower and lower frequencies. A Canadian university > >>> > succeeded in creating a 1355 nm photovoltaic cell! That's only > >>> > 1/11th the wavelength away from the peak 15000 nm 920 watts/m^2 > >>> > blackbody 300 K radiation. BTW, blackbody radiation at 1355 nm is > >>> > 2E+18 times greater than visible region of 600 nm. To calculate this > >>> > I compared the radiation from 16667 to 16677 cm^-1, which is > >>> > 3.907E-29 watts to 7380 to 7390 cm^-1, which is 7.499e-11 watts. > >>> > > >>> > University of Toronto in Canada achieves 1355 nm photovoltaic cell: > >>> > http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/4/1/7/1 > >>> > > >>> > Eventually technology will reach the peak 15000 nm region where a > >>> > thin double sided 1m x 1m sheet receives ~920 watts. It's difficult > >>> > for a person to believe they are surrounded by a source "free > >>> > energy" because we don't see such energy with our eyes. > >>> > >>> This one still really bugs me. I don't understand solar cells well > >>> enough to know if this could work, but it just seems /wrong/ to me > >>> that a cell at the same temperature as a blackbody could generate > >>> useful electricity from the blackbody's radiation! (Even a solar > >>> cell made in Canada!) :-) > >> > >> > >> The problem with typical visible light photovoltaic cells is there's hardly any > >> black body radiation in the visible light spectrum. I calculated/guesstimated > >> that such a cell would generate less than 1E-30 DC volts. On the other hand > the > >> university in Canada made a significant breakthrough in photovoltaic cells by > >> allowing such cells efficiently absorb up to 1355 nm. Now that 1355 nm doesn't > >> sound like much as compared to 600 nm visible light, but blackbody radiation at > >> 1355 nm is 2E+18 times greater than at 600 nm visible light. > >> > >> To give an idea just how much energy is available from blackbody radiation > alone > >> --> A two sided thin sheet of material at room temperature (300K) radiates ~920 > >> watts, which is peak at around 15000 nm. It will be very interesting when > >> technology increases from 1355 nm 15000 nm! :-) Last week I came across a > forum > >> posting about the Canadian breakthrough, but cannot find it for the life of me. > >> There were physicists (or at least they sounded like physicists) saying things > >> that absolutely shocked me. Statements to the effect, "we're almost to the > point > >> of collecting continuous ambient temperature radiation." > >> > >> Nature's not that cruel, right? I'm mean, surely we could design a device to > >> collect energy from a room full of bouncing basketballs. What about large > >> molecules? What about typical air molecules? What about room temperature > atoms > >> vibrating at ~20 THz? What about vibrating electrons traveling ~1/200 c? Is > >> there a sudden magical size where nature says, "No! These particles are off > >> limits. You cannot have their energy!" I don't thinks so because of the simple > >> fact that a capacitor is able to charge to a certain point due to thermal > >> electrical noise. > >> > >> IMHO the task is in trying to find a design that is able to capture enough > >> ambient temperature energy without an appreciable loss. Some realistic > >> possibilities would include an LED array consisting of a trillion LED & R > units. > >> Or perhaps improving photovoltaic cells to reach 15000 nm's. Those methods > >> sound complex. Truly if this was my task alone then I would first begin by > >> learning how to create a simple diode. I already know how to use a computer to > >> operate a circuit through the parallel port or USB. Therefore, I would design a > >> device that allowed the computer to create micro scale diodes and resistors. > >> Initially this may sound to complex and expensive, but I would beg to disagree. > >> I like the old saying, "Where there's a will there's a way." > >> > >> Truthfully I see a clear method of extracting such ambient temperature by means > >> of magnetic avalanches, but time will tell. > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > >> > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 02:18:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28AIT0i002469; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:18:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28AISDZ002454; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:18:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 02:18:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ca201c7616b$68af43a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:20:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l28AIQoK002439 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73529 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles M. Brown" To: Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:48:47 +0100 > "Michel Jullian" wrote: >>To avoid the voltage drop associated with a diode, which >>is huge compared to the noise signal, one could use smart >>auto-controled switches (fets) instead, which would only >>connect the noise source to the capacitor when the source >>is at a higher potential than the capacitor. This kind of >>diodelesss rectification scheme is used in low voltage >>switchmode power supplies, and is called "synchronous >>rectification". >> >>A kind of "sample and hold" which would resample every >>time the noise signal gets higher than the storage >>voltage. >> >>Now would the whole system be able to power itself plus >>some excess in isothermal conditions, where the switches >>themselves exhibit thermal noise? That's the question. >> >>Michel >> > > Charlie's comment 1: > I think that gates and drains on one buss / sources on the > other buss FETs could substitute for diodes in an array. I think you mean "bus" ;-) No it wouldn't work this way, simulate this and you'll see what I mean, maybe we could all agree to use LTSpice so we can share simulations? > Johnson noise in the channels will be rectified as it > interacts with the gate. > This would be harder to fabricate even if the gate is a > metal mesh. Sampling and holding is not needed. "sample and hold" was an attempt to describe how a synchronous rectifier works: every value higher than the previously sampled value is "sampled and held" sort of. But "zero voltage drop rectification", which is the end result, is a much better description. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 05:16:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28DGROO012205; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 05:16:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28DGLPr012174; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 05:16:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 05:16:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:15:54 -0600 Message-ID: <001c01c76183$f0ed1db0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdhKKK59bct1gYXQ5y2uZChvo7F3gAUlfdw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73530 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steven, > When these smaller atomic nuclei are created wouldn't that also mean that the individual protons and neutrons within these lighter elements have to suddenly regain lost mass if their atomic number is less that Fe? This is exactly what I have been saying. I'm glad somebody is listening. If we apply Einstein's E=mc^2 to fusion binding, and assume that the mass deficit was caused by mass being converted to energy, then it would have to follow that when the bonds break energy would have to be converted back to mass. Everybody makes a big deal about the incredible amount of energy released when matter is converted to energy. If the conservation law of energy holds true, it should take just as much energy to reform the mass during fission reactions. According to E=mc^2, if it applies to the fusion reaction as explained by the mass deficit equation, then a fission reaction should absorb an incredible amount of energy from the environment. Despite the obvious error of this assumption, it is the logical extension of E=mc^2. It is one thing to swipe at the foundation of modern physics, because even a poor theory is better than no theory at all. In order to effectively eradicate Relativity theories, we need to have something else to put in place. Naturally, I have a valid mathematical solution to this conundrum, as explained through the Aether Physics Model. > WHAT KINDS OR WHAT RATIO OF LIGHTER ELEMENTS TEND TO BE GENERATED? Each radioactive element decays differently, and some decay in multiple ways. Here is a U235 decay chain for natural decay (no bombs): http://hepwww.rl.ac.uk/UKDMC/Radioactivity/U235_chain/U235_chain.html Here is a general description which also explains supercritical decay. http://www.nti.org/e_research/cnwm/overview/technical1.asp I will not personally discuss anything related to making weapons, being involved with theoretical physics and author of a new paradigm with many valid possibilities. All you need to know is that as nuclei unbind, then according to E=mc^2, the unbinding should absorb large quantities of energy from the environment, which it does not. Quite the opposite occurs. Energy release from both types of processes can only happen if new matter is created during either the fission process, fusion process, or both. And that is exactly what the Aether Physics Model suggests. What would be the physical evidence for newly created matter? Liquid Metal Fast Breeder Reactors (LMFBR) were designed in the 1940s to produce more fuel than they consumed. The LMFBR at Argonne Labs in Idaho successfully operated a full life cycle and proved this technology. We also know that stars grow in mass over their lifetime. It is believed that stars accrete matter from nearby dust. But if that is the case, how is it that there is always just enough dust fed to a star over a period of billions of years such that it grows at a more or less steady rate? The mass of our Sun should be ten times what it is right now in 1 billion years. Where will all this extra mass come from, and why couldn't all the dust be sucked in right from the beginning when the star formed? Also, if stars grow by accreting matter, then why does our Sun expel more matter every day than it accretes? According to the Aether Physics Model, new matter is continually generated via the Casimir effect. The corona around the Sun is an example of the Casimir effect working on electrons. The fusion process within the Sun is the Casimir effect working on protons. The reason why the Sun can eject large clouds of protons and electrons every day is because it is producing them everyday. We also know the Universe is expanding, despite the fact that a black hole is observed at the center of each galaxy. Over billions of years, black holes eat up a lot of stars, so why is the Universe expanding? It should be shrinking according to E=mc^2. But if all stars are generating new matter, and there are many more stars generating matter than collapsing at the centers of galaxies, then the Universe should expand. The black hole implosion events prevent the expansion from getting out of hand. Nebulae are brilliant clouds of dust that produce their own light. The idea that dust in space reflects light is ludicrous as most dust is dark. Nebulae are also examples of the Casimir effect generating new matter, which provides the material for building new stars. > Where does all this "mass" come from, particularly since so much destructive radioactive energy is being released as U235 destroys itself. > What am I missing here? The problem is the physics we are taught by mainstream science, not you. An atomic bomb is not just releasing stored energy, it is also creating new matter at a very high rate, once again, due to the Casimir effect working through electrons and protons. A fission reaction will work itself out when the critical material needed is exhausted, but a fusion reaction can be made to work as fast or as slow as we choose. Hence, cold fusion is a very real process. Further, cold fusion is generating new matter, just as hot fusion does, which is why there is a net energy gain. The heavy water cold fusion is producing new protons, which become "unexpected guests" in atoms and create various reactions or merely build up the isotope. Many free energy devices are using the exact same physics, except electrons are being generated and we call the process the Casimir effect. The way these processes work is that either two protons or two electrons become magnetically aligned with each other and spaced by a certain distance and then cause the Aether between them to resonate. If two protons cause the Aether to resonate, the Aether generates a new Aether unit and absorbs enough dark matter from the surrounding environment to produce a proton "sized" photon. Being inside a nucleus (most of the time) this proton sized photon is quickly converted to a real proton via a process similar to the photoelectric effect. This extra proton is the "unexpected guest" and must be dealt with according to the atomic structure it was born into. If two electrons cause the Aether to resonate, a new Aether unit with an electron "sized" photon is generated from the surrounding dark matter, and this new photon is absorbed (or reflected) by surrounding atoms. Absorbed photons are converted to electrons via the photoelectric effect. As newly generated electrons accumulate, they create potential, which can power a load. And there you have it, the keys to understanding how to engineer and build free energy devices. The key is the Casimir effect. The basic mathematics showing all of this, along with the correct physics paradigm in which to view it, is presented in our papers and book. The problem with modern physics is the belief in E=mc^2 and the myth that the Aether does not exist. Not only does the Aether exist, there is an abundance of evidence clearly demonstrating its existence. But like a hypnotized person who cannot see the people in the room because of intense suggestion, modern science cannot see the Aether. I don't have anything more to say about the incorrectness of E=mc^2. I have already said everything necessary to clearly see it is false. My purpose for being here is to share the Aether Physics Model with those who are interested. If you haven't seen enough to interest you by now, I will leave you all to the peace of my absence. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 05:25:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28DPX1d015468; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 05:25:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28DPWQd015453; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 05:25:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 05:25:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:24:41 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73531 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re [Vo] FET rectification-refrigeration-models-part of Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:20:10 +0100 "Michel Jullian" wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Charles M. Brown" >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:47 AM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature >energy > > >> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:48:47 +0100 >> "Michel Jullian" wrote: >>>To avoid the voltage drop associated with a diode, which >>>is huge compared to the noise signal, one could use smart >>>auto-controled switches (fets) instead, which would only >>>connect the noise source to the capacitor when the source >>>is at a higher potential than the capacitor. This kind of >>>diodelesss rectification scheme is used in low voltage >>>switchmode power supplies, and is called "synchronous >>>rectification". >>> >>>A kind of "sample and hold" which would resample every >>>time the noise signal gets higher than the storage >>>voltage. >>> >>>Now would the whole system be able to power itself plus >>>some excess in isothermal conditions, where the switches >>>themselves exhibit thermal noise? That's the question. >>> >>>Michel >>> >> >> Charlie's comment 1: >> I think that gates and drains on one buss / sources on >>the >> other buss FETs could substitute for diodes in an >>array. > >I think you mean "bus" ;-) >No it wouldn't work this way, simulate this and you'll >see what I mean, maybe we could all agree to use LTSpice >so we can share simulations? > >> Johnson noise in the channels will be rectified as it >> interacts with the gate. >> This would be harder to fabricate even if the gate is a >> metal mesh. Sampling and holding is not needed. > >"sample and hold" was an attempt to describe how a >synchronous rectifier works: every value higher than the >previously sampled value is "sampled and held" sort of. >But "zero voltage drop rectification", which is the end >result, is a much better description. > >Michel > Charles M Brown Perhaps this minor point is obsolete scince I read it long ago: A depletion type FET has less gate to source and gate to drain capacitance (beyond the channel) than an enhancement type because the gate works to pinch off part of the channel far from the metal of the source and drain. If all the FETs are in parallel with the gates at drain voltage than the only thing that Johnson noise can effect separately is each channel. When part of each channel drifts positive in an N type depletion FET it becomes pinched into higher resistance. When part of each channel drifts negative in an N type depletion FET it remains conductive. Therefore positive excursions of the channel are surpressed. Will spice show the increased performance of InSb? A heat pump needs a compressor run by external power. The compresser energy and compressor losses due to inefficiency must be expressed as heat in a hot side radiator (possibly including the compressor case). The refrigerant must also release heat to the hot side radiator. The heat pump as a whole is not a ambient heat aboorber. I believe that heat pumps are heavier than diode arrays so bootstrapping heatpumps to diode arrays will make things worse. Part of the diode array's electrical output would be consumed by the compressor. I snipped away Michel's comment about models being susceptible to disproof by better models. I hope that better understanding will lead to succesful ambient heat absorbing / power producing devices. Bus and buss are both used in the electrical meaning. Civilization has grown so powerful that inventors must be productively connected within it. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 07:18:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28FINnp018372; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:18:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28FIKSn018345; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:18:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:18:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308101800.03732f40@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:18:14 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070307115242.03737c40@mindspring.com> References: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070307115242.03737c40@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73532 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paper uploaded. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSfurtherevi.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 08:11:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28GB247018112; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:11:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28GB0SS018088; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:11:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:11:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JlL1zYXH61zWPw2ZKELbtxNsgn6gCsEldKt+y29dqOU/TYgNxWTbFtVp380RsnTnBLm4jcrJmXJtIiL0OS8hgfowSa3yCALSLkVBGlTXVixITC5lLj5zYjKXePMCijRHfkTSbRxYuEiPwmTLB6f9ewLdvuMWQzTVXro5rOI4iqA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gB/NOSwpN0yStJQ/m1PmCGexwo1MCNJJhCPIaklYNZNdDT5CNmO4kCA1u37VsBEO4LVh7ZzjBmTx2klJXJDVRIvOq5OKeDcNn90BHW1pQ78SyHULFP6zZntONGnra/93yKt2DBvjL73w0n56vwnUXQ1g1tZgKwmcoHKRToEUnds= Message-ID: <45F03586.4060302@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:10:46 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <2fd301c759c2$378d67d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_K6r_B.A.gaE.UWD8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73533 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > Limited financial means are not a problem for a proof of principle experiment IMHO. --- I'm not sure it's that simple in this case. People debate about everything, including their own reality; e.g., Can you prove or disprove your life is nothing but a virtual reality game, and death is merely the end of such a game? ... and other Matrix philosophies? Something as controversial as the "free energy smoking gun" most likely needs a prototype as proof, unless the person happens to meet a wealthy investor willing to take a leap of faith. Charlie Brown has been searching for Angel money what seems forever. He has patents, etc. etc., but what has it bought him. I think a lot of people need to work together on this to design a working prototpye, even if it generates a pW, so long as it's self-sustaining. --- > OK let's assume one is able to extract energy from a single heat source, even if serious doubts subsist. What would be the practical use, considering there already exist compact highly overunity commercial devices able to pump kilowatts of energy from ambient temperature air? --- I probably didn't get your question. Are there presently overunity devices able to pump kilowatts of energy from ambient temperature??? What you describe is the "smoking gun," right? Where is this "smoking gun." Perhaps Steorn? Time will tell. Regards, Paul Lowrance [snip] From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 08:15:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28GEkGI024104; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:14:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28GEgf7024055; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:14:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:14:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:14:36 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_14e2fa254b27546b9d391cc5bdb93bed" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070308161809.929F2BFA61@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73534 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_14e2fa254b27546b9d391cc5bdb93bed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David, >> When these smaller atomic nuclei are created wouldn't >> that also mean that the individual protons and neutrons >> within these lighter elements have to suddenly regain >> lost mass if their atomic number is less that Fe? > This is exactly what I have been saying. I'm glad > somebody is listening. > If we apply Einstein's E=mc^2 to fusion binding, and > assume that the mass deficit was caused by mass being > converted to energy, then it would have to follow that > when the bonds break energy would have to be converted > back to mass. But wait! There remains in my view a potential wrinkle, one that has yet to be fully clarified. It's an issue that Stephen Lawrence has repeatedly tried to bring up, an issue that I also find myself questioning. The generally accepted scientific belief, the "belief" that has been in vogue for the past century holds that splitting HEAVIER than Fe atoms into smaller atoms, smaller atoms that nevertheless are STILL HEAVIER THAN Fe (iron) will generate a net release of stored energy, just as fusing LIGHTER THAN Fe atoms appears to generate released energy if the resulting atomic elements that are fused together are THEMSELVES lighter than Fe. Again, Fe (iron), is that magic atomic number, the unique element that exists at the bottom of the so-called "energy well." What had not been clear to me are what kinds of elements are typically formed when, for example, U235 violently splits apart. Indeed, there would be disquieting questions that might call "E=MC^2" into question if the vast majority of orphaned "children" elements generated indeed turn out to be lighter than Fe. But look at the U235 decay chain of events for uranium, for a natural non-nuclear bomb fission process, as you point out at: http://hepwww.rl.ac.uk/UKDMC/Radioactivity/U235_chain/U235_chain.html While I'm sure lighter than Fe sub-atomic alpha particles, protons, and neutrons are faithfully generated the vast bulk of remaining "mass" from the demise of a split U235 element remains WELL OVER the atomic mass of Fe, that is, an eventual reduction of the atomic mass of 235 down to around 205. (Iron has an atomic weight of around 55.845.) As one can see there is still a very long way to go before we even reach the bottom of the "energy well." Therefore, collectively speaking, it would seem to me that one would have to conclude that individual masses of protons and neutrons are still loosing "mass" (and as such releasing "energy") in these heavier than Fe atoms. I find it hard to believe that most of the big-named nuclear physicists over the past century have NOT thought about this very issue, and as such, worked out the equations to their satisfaction. I'm occasionally a smart guy myself, but I don't think I'm THAT smart! I'm still intrigued by your theory, however, I can't go there, I can't explore these other ramifications until a clarification of the Fe (iron) "energy well" paradox is resolved. Not wishing to put words into Mr. Lawrence's mouth it also seems to me that Stephen has been voicing similar issues as well. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_14e2fa254b27546b9d391cc5bdb93bed Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello David,

>> When these smaller atomic nuclei are created wouldn't
>> that also mean that the individual protons and neutrons
>> within these lighter elements have to suddenly regain
>> lost mass if their atomic number is less that Fe?

> This is exactly what I have been saying. I'm glad
> somebody is listening.

> If we apply Einstein's E=3Dmc^2 to fusion binding, and
> assume that the mass deficit was caused by mass being
> converted to energy, then it would have to follow that
> when the bonds break energy would have to be converted
> back to mass.

But wait! There remains in my view a potential wrinkle, one that has yet to= be fully clarified. It's an issue that Stephen Lawrence has repeatedly tri= ed to bring up, an issue that I also find myself questioning.

The generally accepted scientific belief, the "belief" that has been in vog= ue for the past century holds that splitting HEAVIER than Fe atoms into sma= ller atoms, smaller atoms that nevertheless are STILL HEAVIER THAN Fe (iron= ) will generate a net release of stored energy, just as fusing LIGHTER THAN= Fe atoms appears to generate released energy if the resulting atomic eleme= nts that are fused together are THEMSELVES lighter than Fe. Again, Fe (iron= ), is that magic atomic number, the unique element that exists at the botto= m of the so-called "energy well."

What had not been clear to me are what kinds of elements are typically form= ed when, for example, U235 violently splits apart. Indeed, there would be d= isquieting questions that might call "E=3DMC^2" into question if the vast m= ajority of orphaned "children" elements generated indeed turn out to be lig= hter than Fe. But look at the U235 decay chain of events for uranium, for = a natural non-nuclear bomb fission process, as you point out at:

http://hepwww.rl.ac.uk/UKDMC/Radioactivity/U235_chain/U235_chain.html

While I'm sure lighter than Fe sub-atomic alpha particles, protons, and neu= trons are faithfully generated the vast bulk of remaining "mass" from the d= emise of a split U235 element remains WELL OVER the atomic mass of Fe, that= is, an eventual reduction of the atomic mass of 235 down to around 205. (I= ron has an atomic weight of around 55.845.) As one can see there is still a= very long way to go before we even reach the bottom of the "energy well." = Therefore, collectively speaking, it would seem to me that one would have t= o conclude that individual masses of protons and neutrons are still loosing= "mass" (and as such releasing "energy") in these heavier than Fe atoms.
I find it hard to believe that most of the big-named nuclear physicists ove= r the past century have NOT thought about this very issue, and as such, wor= ked out the equations to their satisfaction. I'm occasionally a smart guy m= yself, but I don't think I'm THAT smart!


I'm still intrigued by your theory, however, I can't go there, I can't expl= ore these other ramifications until a clarification of the Fe (iron) "energ= y well" paradox is resolved. Not wishing to put words into Mr. Lawrence's m= outh it also seems to me that Stephen has been voicing similar issues as we= ll.


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_14e2fa254b27546b9d391cc5bdb93bed-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 08:24:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28GNlLh032539; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:23:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28GNjw8032511; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:23:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:23:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=X9GkAF1BPJmr/oE3lzxy32r2kvYW4VZXM7OuXwR0rwKYpDql+BViozVpqo6Luu8gxkshCnLHSM3NzzOxYTHScSc9oZTIYCFLRWAvxttSym3UA7hFccFtA8dU0faM4qkKa4+iInl/+lD8+hJnDbg6+n01qtETztNfCTDHP0Bp0zU= ; X-YMail-OSG: _hLIL7gVM1kxXMafzEdhRRgfn1UzlMWvUw4etMSpgYizJnGzfzKfqVEGxhuKxOvmQb1krZ8K7P78F8dMjYroc9wIZkToeqr9IpAYOWm9FgPsONLUdInNAZL22xsCyCWFpbMPO14XDB_ENlaB0YiDUYZnCw-- Message-ID: <45F0388C.8090905@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:23:40 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73535 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Something fishy ? Status: O X-Status: http://www.freewebs.com/radiation-shield/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 09:20:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28HKgD8031752; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:20:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28HKeBR031733; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:20:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:20:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F03586.4060302@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:22:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l28HKYjH031703 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73536 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sure, experimental evidence is needed, a patent doesn't prove that something works. Proof of principle experiment design must be as simple as possible and based on sound principles, it can be discussed here, other than that the actual experiment can be conducted in one's kitchen I guess. The highly OU commercial ambient air energy pumping devices I was talking about are those residential heating heat pumps we have been discussing in the 'loop closed' thread, they commonly reach COPs of 4 (1000W out for 250W in, the excess coming from ambient air). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > Michel Jullian wrote: > --- > > Limited financial means are not a problem for a proof of principle experiment > IMHO. > --- > > > I'm not sure it's that simple in this case. People debate about everything, > including their own reality; e.g., Can you prove or disprove your life is > nothing but a virtual reality game, and death is merely the end of such a game? > ... and other Matrix philosophies? Something as controversial as the "free > energy smoking gun" most likely needs a prototype as proof, unless the person > happens to meet a wealthy investor willing to take a leap of faith. Charlie > Brown has been searching for Angel money what seems forever. He has patents, > etc. etc., but what has it bought him. > > I think a lot of people need to work together on this to design a working > prototpye, even if it generates a pW, so long as it's self-sustaining. > > > > > --- > > OK let's assume one is able to extract energy from a single heat source, even > if serious doubts subsist. What would be the practical use, considering there > already exist compact highly overunity commercial devices able to pump kilowatts > of energy from ambient temperature air? > --- > > > I probably didn't get your question. Are there presently overunity devices able > to pump kilowatts of energy from ambient temperature??? What you describe is > the "smoking gun," right? Where is this "smoking gun." Perhaps Steorn? Time > will tell. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > [snip] > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 09:37:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28HbJFn008631; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:37:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28HbIPK008610; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:37:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:37:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ce601c761a8$b556e7c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:39:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l28HbGDL008579 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73537 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re [Vo] FET rectification-refrigeration-models-part of Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles M. Brown" To: Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:24 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re [Vo] FET rectification-refrigeration-models-part of Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > On Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:20:10 +0100 > "Michel Jullian" wrote: >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Charles M. Brown" >>To: >>Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:47 AM >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature >>energy >> >> >>> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:48:47 +0100 >>> "Michel Jullian" wrote: >>>>To avoid the voltage drop associated with a diode, which >>>>is huge compared to the noise signal, one could use smart >>>>auto-controled switches (fets) instead, which would only >>>>connect the noise source to the capacitor when the source >>>>is at a higher potential than the capacitor. This kind of >>>>diodelesss rectification scheme is used in low voltage >>>>switchmode power supplies, and is called "synchronous >>>>rectification". >>>> >>>>A kind of "sample and hold" which would resample every >>>>time the noise signal gets higher than the storage >>>>voltage. >>>> >>>>Now would the whole system be able to power itself plus >>>>some excess in isothermal conditions, where the switches >>>>themselves exhibit thermal noise? That's the question. >>>> >>>>Michel >>>> >>> >>> Charlie's comment 1: >>> I think that gates and drains on one buss / sources on >>>the >>> other buss FETs could substitute for diodes in an >>>array. >> >>I think you mean "bus" ;-) >>No it wouldn't work this way, simulate this and you'll >>see what I mean, maybe we could all agree to use LTSpice >>so we can share simulations? >> >>> Johnson noise in the channels will be rectified as it >>> interacts with the gate. >>> This would be harder to fabricate even if the gate is a >>> metal mesh. Sampling and holding is not needed. >> >>"sample and hold" was an attempt to describe how a >>synchronous rectifier works: every value higher than the >>previously sampled value is "sampled and held" sort of. >>But "zero voltage drop rectification", which is the end >>result, is a much better description. >> >>Michel >> > Charles M Brown > Perhaps this minor point is obsolete scince I read it long > ago: A depletion type FET has less gate to source and gate > to drain capacitance (beyond the channel) than an > enhancement type because the gate works to pinch off part > of the channel far from the metal of the source and drain. > If all the FETs are in parallel with the gates at drain > voltage than the only thing that Johnson noise can effect > separately is each channel. When part of each channel > drifts positive in an N type depletion FET it becomes > pinched into higher resistance. When part of each channel > drifts negative in an N type depletion FET it remains > conductive. Therefore positive excursions of the channel > are surpressed. > > Will spice show the increased performance of InSb? If you can find a spice model for it, yes. But what I was saying is that an N type FET (any) with its drain and gate connected to a random low voltage (<100mV right?) supply and its source connected to the output capacitor will not rectify the supply voltage, as would be obvious to any EE and as can easily be seen by spice-simulating it. Or wasn't that what you meant? > A heat pump needs a compressor run by external power. Not necessarily, cf Peltier modules. > The > compresser energy and compressor losses due to > inefficiency must be expressed as heat in a hot side > radiator (possibly including the compressor case). The > refrigerant must also release heat to the hot side > radiator. So? > The heat pump as a whole is not a ambient heat > aboorber. I don't understand what you mean. Of course it absorbs ambient heat, it pumps it from one place (e.g. ambient air outside your house) to another place (e.g. ambient air inside your house). > I believe that heat pumps are heavier than diode > arrays so bootstrapping heatpumps to diode arrays will > make things worse. Part of the diode array's electrical > output would be consumed by the compressor. > > I snipped away Michel's comment about models being > susceptible to disproof by better models. I hope that > better understanding will lead to succesful ambient heat > absorbing / power producing devices. I didn't get any of the above, did I mention heat pumps in relation to diode arrays, or comment about models being susceptible to disproof by better models? > > Bus and buss are both used in the electrical meaning. Ah OK, my English. > Civilization has grown so powerful that inventors must be > productively connected within it. Agreed. Michel > > Aloha, > > Charlie > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 09:51:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28HpYHJ014303; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:51:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28HpXZN014287; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:51:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:51:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=K08m5oPZBN/r46pV0LcBnK6dfTRpqsWOiZSe8Sg5hcD5SmHUWUv7DMAx50HEXbb4UmRSLTJv+FZn3OMrkiecF7nc3MCYtqf6Gt6P7fuLMUYh4KX6nz8oWWTAyohY3bSJqLkK9s2V5LwExe5cZy1jrJwb2T8WBMNqDUqe228KxeM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=SNImvxNTAop3POYDsNUCNP7/C470e9WF9GQdAQ0+wZo07AzggETTNBC5u7igdMgrWNECAvzAmLkuKzZdPXPWTUF9qMCos6sXDcIn5i2jH98EoxobaVwLWwDJF6QpcdqagJMY9vj9RSorEYhX2oRLnyZv/g4X7I1v3+PMtkhx15c= Message-ID: <45F04CF5.4060301@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 09:50:45 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F03586.4060302@gmail.com> <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73538 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > Sure, experimental evidence is needed, a patent doesn't prove that something works. --- That's what I said. --- > Proof of principle experiment design must be as simple as possible and based on sound principles, it can be discussed here, other than that the actual experiment can be conducted in one's kitchen I guess. > > The highly OU commercial ambient air energy pumping devices I was talking about are those residential heating heat pumps we have been discussing in the 'loop closed' thread, they commonly reach COPs of 4 (1000W out for 250W in, the excess coming from ambient air). --- I'm not following that thread, but a quick glance in that thread found a few links to heat pumps. I don't think those heat pumps at sortprice are overunity, as that industry uses a different definition of COP that the "free energy" community, or at least that's what I was told. Those heat pumps require extra energy to move energy. There are a lot of claims of overunity and even a few with detailed build instructions such as the MEG, but as far as I know they're still unconfirmed, but definitely worth investigating. Lets continue to encourage people to work on some form of "free energy" research (or even replication) such as capturing ambient temperature energy until we have a self-running machine with extremely detailed build instructions. Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lowrance" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> --- >>> Limited financial means are not a problem for a proof of principle experiment >> IMHO. >> --- >> >> >> I'm not sure it's that simple in this case. People debate about everything, >> including their own reality; e.g., Can you prove or disprove your life is >> nothing but a virtual reality game, and death is merely the end of such a game? >> ... and other Matrix philosophies? Something as controversial as the "free >> energy smoking gun" most likely needs a prototype as proof, unless the person >> happens to meet a wealthy investor willing to take a leap of faith. Charlie >> Brown has been searching for Angel money what seems forever. He has patents, >> etc. etc., but what has it bought him. >> >> I think a lot of people need to work together on this to design a working >> prototpye, even if it generates a pW, so long as it's self-sustaining. >> >> >> >> >> --- >>> OK let's assume one is able to extract energy from a single heat source, even >> if serious doubts subsist. What would be the practical use, considering there >> already exist compact highly overunity commercial devices able to pump kilowatts >> of energy from ambient temperature air? >> --- >> >> >> I probably didn't get your question. Are there presently overunity devices able >> to pump kilowatts of energy from ambient temperature??? What you describe is >> the "smoking gun," right? Where is this "smoking gun." Perhaps Steorn? Time >> will tell. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> >> >> [snip] From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 10:19:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28IJXaZ001283; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:19:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28IJVhx001264; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:19:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:19:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dun03N9bkq8Y0F2Nf0eqWZRwtlyJ14SIo+XU5a8LUpLHJomGv1S2gWoO+XGMwRp064Q5vbWp6pfSjZMLF22lJs8SimI6XeLYPoyWEQO1QYSlnf5xojN35m4JU3mN65MERIhVlPk1xhsZ5IQr8z9W2QP6Ch56MTcGCP3LkJElI5c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=n7dmVLLumMwrKVJAd4N3PhLSTayhJGLi5Gw8B8c0RW5hjGY/89qr2Uxc0/5bJLccMseX1jVe1cJArLb3+7b4VCYbBX6HgRP0tniVAKVrRk/Ofs/HuajwhoxNvc5wT6ytqbOj/ZgsPiLzYKTH9yOxZclLB9hcxj7KT1Qa6eju+UA= Message-ID: <45F053A8.2000307@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:19:20 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? References: <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F03586.4060302@gmail.com> <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73539 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: People are talking about NSA working with Microsoft. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/59ceb37bb8bf6ea0/63b615317e57df5b?#63b615317e57df5b Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 10:26:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28IQZ2w010802; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:26:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28IQWoY010748; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:26:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:26:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308122526.0372be10@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:25:26 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy In-Reply-To: <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <45E32268.8000100@gmail.com> <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F03586.4060302@gmail.com> <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >The highly OU commercial ambient air energy pumping devices I was >talking about are those residential heating heat pumps we have been >discussing in the 'loop closed' thread, they commonly reach COPs of >4 (1000W out for 250W in, the excess coming from ambient air). I thought this thread was a joke. A heat pump is NOT over unity. Using old-fashioned terminology, a heat pump moves heat from a cold "reservoir" to a hot one. When you drive a heat engine with the heat from the hot reservoir, the heat engine produces less energy overall than the heat pump consumed. The "COP" of 4 refers to the amount of heat energy moved versus the amount expended by the machine, but you cannot move that same heat back the other direction with a heat engine and get back 4 times input, because the hot reservoir is only a little warmer than the cold one, and Carnot efficiency is low. Let me give an imaginary example with round numbers. Suppose you live in Florida where you need to heat a house only a little more than the surroundings. You run a gasoline powered heat pump -- a very efficient heat pump with a COP of 6. It converts 20% of the starting energy into air conditioner power, which then moves 5 * 20% into the house = 120% of the original fuel. You can burn 1000 joules worth of fuel in the house, or use the same amount of fuel in the heat pump to move 1200 joules of heat from the surroundings into the house. But, the temperature difference between the house and the surrounding is 5 deg C (6 deg C with the heat pump), and when you attach a heat pump to the house and let the heat flow through it, it is only 1% efficient, so the 1200 joules converts to 12 joules of useful work. It is physically impossible for any heat engine to convert the heat back into 1000 joules of work, or more. If you only want to make the hot reservoir a little warmer than the surroundings, a heat pump can achieve very high C.O.P.s of 10 or more, but in no case can you reverse the process with a heat engine and get more out than you put in. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 10:45:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28Ij4Wj019455; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:45:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28Ij3xk019443; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:45:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:45:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cr9iEvfgaPIzzkHws+3lg8ps5VjrJmwWYh3dZZ5SBa9WZQXEE7ryMD9E1tbH4DD8kLSOP2qNXlJHd89i9NleIBgMr5S22mn8J2thjUCh8caMj6VM958TPPelCJltX1sSMP6S2ZqDoIjBD0/Qpl5IZ37H0WLy7GIFRn4zYt9rShU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=D0PynSeBUo9RQIShwrk7L0TeE9Wxexw1llcmuJOoDsYSo6CfiIhyDaWCTewlYUciZ5eOeJjHYoWGzv/Z3qNm48ePfJceb0cRumHwvb88Fmncyuwnpyf+JMgpN71cSrU1oJ618eSCI43Ait59Epb0vxxxv5m1c/FKR2yoYGX4SRg= Message-ID: <45F059A2.8020004@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:44:50 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F03586.4060302@gmail.com> <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070308122526.0372be10@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308122526.0372be10@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73541 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> The highly OU commercial ambient air energy pumping devices I was >> talking about are those residential heating heat pumps we have been >> discussing in the 'loop closed' thread, they commonly reach COPs of 4 >> (1000W out for 250W in, the excess coming from ambient air). > > I thought this thread was a joke. A heat pump is NOT over unity. Using > old-fashioned terminology, a heat pump moves heat from a cold > "reservoir" to a hot one. When you drive a heat engine with the heat > from the hot reservoir, the heat engine produces less energy overall > than the heat pump consumed. Please do not confuse this thread with such heat pumps. This thread has nothing to do with that. As Michel clearly stated, the "loop closed" thread is discussing that typical heat pumps. Please reply over in the "loop closed" thread. This thread is about a simple fact that a capacitor is always charged to some degree when connected to a noise source such as carbon resistor, less the infinitesimal time when the charge changes polarity. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 11:18:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28JIKcr006034; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:18:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28JIJmI006027; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:18:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:18:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:17:10 -0600 Message-ID: <001701c761b6$77dd4340$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F053A8.2000307@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdhr3QyUEmwaShPRrO6ygx27yxiSAABBgfQ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l28JIIRU006004 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73542 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Paul, Come on, you're not that naïve, are you? Even before the NSA officially existed, they were directly involved with telephone circuits. Remember back in the sixties when it was a felony to open your telephone and modify it? That is because the circuits have a feature that allows the NSA to dial your number and hear everything going on near your telephone, even without making it ring or be lifted off the receiver. Cell phones today have the same feature, plus they can be triangulated to get your position whenever there is a battery in your phone. Didn't you ever wonder why phone companies want you to be able to afford a new phone for each member of your family? Future phones will be directly tracked by GPS. I had the luck one day to pick up my phone and catch it in scan mode. Every five seconds I would hear a different conversation from somewhere around the nation. I listened for hours, it was great. There are operators who do nothing but spot check conversations looking for vital intelligence information. Why do you think the government believes the Internet is the greatest thing going for interpersonal communications? There are huge computer mainframes at various intelligence centers, which record every single data transfer made over the telephones, fax machines, internet, wireless toys, HAM radios, commercial radios, CBs, television stations, GPS units, and even automobile computer systems. Haven't you wondered why all cars are computerized and you aren't allowed to remove the computer circuit? It has nothing to do with emissions control, although it makes a great cover story (thanks to the Greens). What about all those "security flaws" discovered in every version of Windows and other programs? Most of those weren't flaws, they were built in to allow spooks access to your information, but were discovered by hackers. Have you wondered why you haven't seen as many cops with radar detectors by the side of the road in the past few years? They don't need them. You are being tracked by satellite. They already know who you are before they pull you over. So the secret is don't do anything to give them a reason to pull you over. Every time you use your credit card, debit card, and handwritten check, the NSA has a copy of the transaction. Are you skeptical about all this? Ask yourself how the telephone conversations of all those people in 9/11 got recorded. Unless by a freak chance all these people were being watched by spooks with secret search warrants, the only explanation is that all the calls were being recorded anyway. Within weeks there were "last calls" from people using their cell phones on planes and people using their land lines between the towers and their homes. I can't believe you aren't aware of all this. Does it really surprise you that NSA is involved in VISTA? They have been involved from the beginning since Windows 95, only now they are getting an upgrade and you are paying for it. How else are they going to pay for these black projects? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Paul Lowrance [mailto:energymover@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 12:19 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? People are talking about NSA working with Microsoft. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/59ce b37bb8bf6ea0/63b615317e57df5b?#63b615317e57df5b Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 11:35:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28JZae6028167; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:35:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28JZYri028128; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:35:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:35:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308142140.0372be10@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:35:26 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? In-Reply-To: <001701c761b6$77dd4340$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> References: <45F053A8.2000307@gmail.com> <001701c761b6$77dd4340$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_FuRDD.A.c3G.GWG8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73543 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >Remember back in the sixties when it was a felony to open your >telephone and modify it? That is preposterous. The 1933 FCC rules forbade attachment to the telephone network of any device "not furnished by the telephone company." They said nothing about opening up telephones. Millions of people opened up telephones in the 1960s, including me. These rules were overturned in the 1950s and 1960s, in the Hushaphone, Carterphone and MCI rulings. >That is because the circuits have a feature that allows the NSA to dial your >number and hear everything going on near your telephone, even without making >it ring or be lifted off the receiver. That's even more preposterous. Hundreds of thousands of highly qualified teleco and interconnect company technicians opened up telephones throughout the 1960s, and in every decade after 1876. I worked in the telephone equipment supply business in the 1970s and I saw dozens of dismantled telephones of every type and description. None of us in the business ever spotted such a circuit, and in those days you couldn't miss seeing such a thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:03:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28K3Egv001022; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:03:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28K3Dls001006; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:03:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:03:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308144025.03732d78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:02:37 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308142140.0372be10@mindspring.com> References: <45F053A8.2000307@gmail.com> <001701c761b6$77dd4340$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <7.0.1.0.2.20070308142140.0372be10@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73544 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >Millions of people opened up telephones in the 1960s, including me. I might add that my father was something of an expert at spotting and disconnecting 1940s era listening devices, because he traveled around Russia during WWII on U.S. Embassy business. The only way to get room service at the hotels was to disconnect the bugs. That brought someone up from the front desk in minutes. As one person explained, the only way you could get them to come up and spray the real bugs was to disconnect the telephone bugs. Russian phone service was erratic back then, even though they invented the telephone. (According to Stalin, anyway). It sometimes took 10 minutes or a half hour to place a call. Once, a group of Americans were sitting talking about calling someone. After a while the phone rang, and it was the person they were going to call, who was on the line saying, "Hello? Hello?" Apparently, the KGB agent monitoring the conversation decided to save them some time, so he rang up the person they were going to call, got a connection, and then rang back to them. Along the same lines, Americans walking the streets were followed at a discrete distance by KGB handlers, "mainly for our own protection" as my dad put it. When my dad would stop to buy ice cream, he would sometimes buy two, hold one behind him and gaze off in the other direction. The KGB agent would come up and take the other, with a quiet "spasibo" (thanks). The cold war was not as dramatic, dangerous or even unfriendly as it was made out to be. American nationals caught as spies in Russia in the 1940s through to the end of the cold war were seldom harmed. When they would catch one of ours, we would go out and catch one of theirs, and trade. On the other hand, Russian citizens caught spying for the U.S. in Russia were tortured and killed. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:15:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28KFGVK008992; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:15:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28KFFqm008974; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:15:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:15:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F06ECB.8050304@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:15:07 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty References: <000901c76044$10fbd290$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45EE2B91.2060302@pobox.com> <45EED077.9040308@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73545 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > > On 3/8/07, *Stephen A. Lawrence* > wrote: > > So how about you try working through the mathematics of the > contradictions you think you've found in relativity, and post the > results here? > > I mean, work them through using the Lorentz transforms. I'll be happy > to argue them with you, if you'll actually work through the math rather > than just blowing off the calculations and calling it all "bunk". > > > Here's the thing though. > I'm not attacking the equations as self contradictory, I'm bypassing all > of that by pointing out that there is no way for them to be correct > because it is well known that SR functions based on the idea that you > can not assess the rate of time in another frame without distortion. I don't understand what you mean by this. In the SR model the time associated with any particular frame of reference is a scalar field. The "rate of time" in that frame is the gradient 1-form of the scalar field. The rate of time in that frame, as measured by any particular observer, is that 1-form applied to the observer's 4-velocity. The problem is that the scalar fields which represent the "time" coordinate for observers in relative motion are not identical. > The reason that instantaneous communication is said to break down SR is > not that it is instantaneous but that it presupposes no distortion by > effects such as the Doppler effect. I don't understand what you mean by that. Here's the deal on instantaneous communication: Given any two spacelike-separated events, E1 and E2, it's possible to find 3 frames of reference, "a", "b", and "c", such that: -- in frame "a" E1 occurs before E2 -- in frame "b" E1 and E2 are simultaneous -- in frame "c" E2 occurs before E1 We don't care about frame "b" here, but frames "a" and "c" cause real trouble with instantaneous communicators. If we have instantaneous communication which works in _any_ frame of reference, via, say, a hyperwarp communicator carried by an observer in that frame, then we can do this: -- In frame "a" an observer, "O1", at event E1, "hyperwarps" information about E1 to another observer, "O2", located at the point in space in frame "a" where E2 will later occur, "upstream" of event E2. This is possible because E1 occurs _before_ E2 in frame "a". -- In frame "c" an observer, "O3", who is just at this moment zipping past observer "O2", copies the information from "O2" and hyperwarps it to a fourth observer, "O4", who is at the spacial location in frame "c" where event E1 _will_ _occur_. This is possible because E2 occurs _before_ E1 in frame "c". -- "O4" has received information about E1 before it happens, and can now take action to keep event E1 from ever taking place. This is a contradiction. If we assume reality doesn't actually allow for contradictions, then either simultaneity is _not_ relative or instantaneous communication between arbitrary observers is _not_ possible. If we restrict instantaneous communication to a single, preferred inertial frame, then we avoid the contradictions outlined above. As you said, that's not "special relativity" any more; it's got a preferred rest frame. But none the less, if we believe that simultaneity is relative, and we don't think reality allows for contradictory situations, then if instantaneous communication is really possible, it must presumably behave that way. As numerous sci-fi writers have observed, if general time travel is possible, then we will most likely _never_ discover it. The problem is that once it's discovered, it's possible for someone to go back in time and prevent the discovery. Hard to calculate the odds, but given enough -- uh -- _time_, it might very well be inevitable that such a thing would happen -- and once the discovery was prevented, the result would be "stable", as nobody could go back and change things again. In other words, the only "stable" universe is one in which nobody knows how to travel back in time, whether or not it's hypothetically "possible". > The methods I have given allow observers in 2 different frames to > observe each others rate of time and agree fully. Not exactly; the methods you gave allow each observer to measure the other's rate of time passage at some point in the past. And as to whether they "agree", that depends on what you mean by the word. In any case that doesn't allow for any instantaneous transfer of information. If you disagree please post an actual example, using numbers, in which information is transfered between frames faster than C. > This can be achieved by observing travel towards and away and working > out the Doppler effect as I have laid out*, Of course. > or by communication during a > flyby, if the flyby is incredibly distant then even a flyby at .99c > could last a while, if very close it may be fleeting but could pretty > much fit the bill for being practically instantaneous too. The simplest is to allow them to come very close, and each watches the other's clock, and sees how fast it's ticking. Each will see the other's clock ticking slower than his. You need to actually work out the exact details of this, and the paths the information follows, if you think there's a contradiction. You cannot get past this one without working through the math, because the devil is in the details. Here's a very brief summary of the scoop: If "A" wants to measure "B"'s clock rate, A must observe B's clock at _two_ _different_ _times_. (You can't get a rate of change with a single measurement.) At those two different times, B is in two different locations in A's frame of reference. So, we have ONE location in B's frame, whose time is being checked at TWO locations in A's frame. That is an asymmetry, and that is the heart of the matter. This operation, no matter how you imagine A performs the measurements, ends up applying the gradient of A's time coordinate to B's velocity vector and comparing the result with B's proper clock. Conversely if B measures A's clock rate, he's applying the gradient of B's time coordinate to A's velocity vector and comparing the result to A's proper clock. They're using two different gradient functions, which are at an angle relative to each other; hence they do not get the obvious (reciprocal) answers. To put it another way, if "@" is the partial derivative sign and "d" is the ordinary total derivative sign, then, along any particular path, we DO have the following: dt/dtau = 1/(dtau/dt) However, we do _NOT_, in general, have the following: @t/@tau = 1/(@tau/@t) The reason, in short, is that the partial derivative implicitly determines the path on which the derivative is taken, and the paths for @t/@tau and @tau/@t are not the same. For example, take the 1-dimensional Lorentz transforms for time and space: t' = g * (t - v*x) x' = g * (x - v*t) Inverting that, we get t = g * (t' + v*x') x = g * (x' + v*t') This just simple linear algebra, for the case where x and t can be described as functions of x' and t', _or_ x' and t' can be described as functions of x and t. Now let's look at some derivatives, with the assumption that "B", in the primed frame, passed location 0 in both frames at time 0 in both frames, and is moving at speed "v" along A's "x" axis. So, we also have x = v*t OK? Now let's take the total derivative along the path B follows, and the partial derivative (which doesn't depend on the path): dt'/dt = d/dt (g*(t-v*x)) = g * (1 - v^2) = 1/g @t'/@t = @/@t (g*(t - v*x)) = g Note well: The partial and total derivatives of B's time with respect to A's time are _INVERSES_. Now, we'll finally get to the point: If A measures B's clock rate by watching B's clock, he's checking B's time at two points along the path B follows through A's frame. That's the _total_ _derivative_ of B's time with respect to A's time along that path, and it's 1/g. If B is moving at 0.866C, A sees B's clock ticking at 1/2 the rate of A's clock. However, when we use A's _SINGLE_ clock to measure the time at TWO DIFFERENT POINTS in B's frame of reference, then we are taking the rate of change in B's time as A's time changes, _BUT_ with _NO_ change in A's spacial coordinate. That is the partial derivative of B's time with respect to A's time. In other words, it's the rate at which B's time changes, while holding B's "x" coordinate _fixed_. That is, as we saw above, "g". When measured this way, B's time goes _faster_ than A's time; this is sometimes called "time contraction", and it's the inverse of "time dilation", and it is, in fact, the measurement B makes when he observes A's clock at two different moments in order to see how fast A's time is passing: that's the total derivative of B's time along the path which goes straight down A's time axis. Sigh ... I bet this didn't help in the least, did it? > > The 3 different ways are either: 1:Use a computer to work out the level > of Doppler distortion,2: Communicate to the other frame it's apparent > time rate as you observe it and visa versa, if both is you get the same > score then there is no time dilation only Doppler effects. > 3: And finally have 2 positions A & B in the same reference frame > measure the apparent rate of time of a vehicle moving from one to the > other, the Doppler effect is positive for A and negative for B so they > can be added together to remove the Doppler component. > > Basically any way you slice it, there is no way to stop an accurate > observation of the time rate another frame is experiencing which means > that if any time dilation is present it is observable and agreed on by > both parties, it is absolute. Sure, more or less. But to measure a rate you always need to measure the value at two points. And, as I pointed out above, the way you choose those two points is critical. For any _particular_ set of two observations A and B will agree. However, B can't use the same set of two observations to measure the rate at which A's clock is ticking, as A uses to measure the rate at which B's clock is ticking, exactly because the clocks are in motion relative to each other. A fixed point in the space of one frame or the other must be chosen, and that choice of fixed point determines the result. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:20:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28KKY9f010781; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:20:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28KKXdq010766; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:20:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:20:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=muCHJr6bIrOyi1TiztP7qxK3dvg7Un6v43LaHSKiK/C1VFsgB5P12h14TgWGgeVrnt2o8weqRGfhoQPmUGtSnLLTwImA4GT7NXFPpNAQqCp5+UIa918NzgxW5G+ndylIyCBTnBE8D8y8FFFrOQz0Ds/k0ztob/r00UCuJSJdTFk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=swO6uFWAyYfFTfwcekrgidMrSpt4W4ttu7fVkxY7bbmOZAD/omRal3UlGxuYmpgjkoiDHtorbMH+rRNguR3sGYlHI8vphaCtkfbBvyRUk1SgMxaLtmpDgS/K+MVzfxqUi144qKmoJrnN1qa7ekFK00HNpjjnQo2bmQYR22Aclyc= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:20:31 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? In-Reply-To: <001701c761b6$77dd4340$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45F053A8.2000307@gmail.com> <001701c761b6$77dd4340$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73546 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/8/07, David Thomson wrote: > Future phones will be directly tracked by > GPS. You're living in the past. :-) Most phones have had GPS chips since 2004. No one triangulates any more. It was a requirement of the Enhanced 911 service. Allegedly, I can turn this feature on and off. . . allegedly. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:31:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28KVIeJ018953; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:31:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28KVHVC018941; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:31:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:31:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=l6pAz+GW3xuYRmlQAZJRsYgPV0lL6YPk3mOeBsxnnRtekaxqHd0OZWhBKVM0aLBg; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:31:08 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308144025.03732d78@mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609b01a5db6af657628c5721e9eeb16d9cb387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73547 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I so hate to get involved in these types of discussions, but I do have first hand knowledge on some of what is going on and I will state it, even though I see already that many will dispute it. 1) Prior to ESS phone systems, the old relay banks did not work well for covert monitoring. It did require intervention from the phone company that controlled the switches. It was possible to bridge a line and have it monitored via another line, yet the best method was to connect to the physical line and monitor or record it from the pole or a hidden battery operated system close to the location. 2) ESS second generation allowed for field programming. Field programming allowed for the input of the telephone number followed by an action code that performed an operation. The operations ranged from, 'Termination', 'Redirection', or 'Bridging'. All under computer control. Many installers carried card with the code to do diagnostics such as, 'Impedance', 'Resistance', 'Ring Back' and so forth. 3) It was and I think for sure still possible to connect and set a number for automatic monitoring, auto recording is standard. The early systems involved humans to cut into the circuits, from ESS I thru today it is fully under the control of the computers. The phone companies will go to the plank and insist it is not possible, yet it was in the 80's and 90's, so why would it not be so now? The circuits to open a phone did exist (and maybe still do), but the monitoring of internal spaces is best handled by internal xmitters which have and can be passive for some 50 years now. Gone are the days of needing battery, and with no-knock, et.,al. the devices can and are planter with ease. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:03 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? I wrote: >Millions of people opened up telephones in the 1960s, including me. I might add that my father was something of an expert at spotting and disconnecting 1940s era listening devices, because he traveled around Russia during WWII on U.S. Embassy business. The only way to get room service at the hotels was to disconnect the bugs. That brought someone up from the front desk in minutes. As one person explained, the only way you could get them to come up and spray the real bugs was to disconnect the telephone bugs. Russian phone service was erratic back then, even though they invented the telephone. (According to Stalin, anyway). It sometimes took 10 minutes or a half hour to place a call. Once, a group of Americans were sitting talking about calling someone. After a while the phone rang, and it was the person they were going to call, who was on the line saying, "Hello? Hello?" Apparently, the KGB agent monitoring the conversation decided to save them some time, so he rang up the person they were going to call, got a connection, and then rang back to them. Along the same lines, Americans walking the streets were followed at a discrete distance by KGB handlers, "mainly for our own protection" as my dad put it. When my dad would stop to buy ice cream, he would sometimes buy two, hold one behind him and gaze off in the other direction. The KGB agent would come up and take the other, with a quiet "spasibo" (thanks). The cold war was not as dramatic, dangerous or even unfriendly as it was made out to be. American nationals caught as spies in Russia in the 1940s through to the end of the cold war were seldom harmed. When they would catch one of ours, we would go out and catch one of theirs, and trade. On the other hand, Russian citizens caught spying for the U.S. in Russia were tortured and killed. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:41:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28Kemov002571; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:40:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28KekEu002498; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:40:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:40:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=DUx0XDf+lAPEoLIsnlxBHxqqEZBdwb+W1mCQLsFFayXIU+j5ucomlqeTMeVHlrEx; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:40:36 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c260984dbc7cc045c00b54aa9417556ad4aeb387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <7rnuJB.A.pm.NTH8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73548 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Correct, but not totally. The introduction was by the "Family & Friends" feature. Where is my girl friend, where is my husband, where is that bar where the boss wants to meet me. The E911 system was based on signal time domain to cell sites when first introduced because the chips were not yet available to get real time GPS in the phones. Therefore a three site triangulation was used based on signal strength. If I remember back three years (hard :-) ) like maybe 300 yards. This was a stall tactic by the cell companies only to save dollars until the phones and standards were set. Now if we look at the code methods, we are, (sorry they) are able to get to 30cm in covert conditions. If you think this is extreme, in 1996 I wrote an article for a Coast Guard News Letter that described how a ship could be brought to its berth, totally under GPS control. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:21 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? On 3/8/07, David Thomson wrote: > Future phones will be directly tracked by > GPS. You're living in the past. :-) Most phones have had GPS chips since 2004. No one triangulates any more. It was a requirement of the Enhanced 911 service. Allegedly, I can turn this feature on and off. . . allegedly. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:51:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28KpdJo011322; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:51:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28Kpbhg011299; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:51:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:51:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308153941.036e9ec8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:51:29 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308144025.03732d78@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_6Tz9.A.fwC.ZdH8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73549 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stiffler Scientific wrote: >1) Prior to ESS phone systems, the old relay banks did not work well for >covert monitoring. It did require intervention from the phone company that >controlled the switches. It was possible to bridge a line and have it >monitored via another line, yet the best method was to connect to the >physical line and monitor or record it from the pole or a hidden battery >operated system close to the location. I believe you are talking about tapping phone conversations. David Thompson claimed that the NSA could listen to conversations in the room when the phone was on-hook, which is what the Russians used to do: "That is because the circuits have a feature that allows the NSA to dial your number and hear everything going on near your telephone, even without making it ring or be lifted off the receiver." To tap a phone call, there was never any need to add equipment to the telephone sets, or go into the target house or office. As noted, this is done from the central office or nearby equipment. On the other hand you would have to modify the set to record sounds from the room when the phone is on-hook. The Russians used the phone set or some other equipment attached to the phone line. Even in 1945 they used radios. After V.E. day they presented the U.S. Ambassador with a large "Victory Eagle" sculpture which he proudly displayed in his office. One day the U.S. technicians had a look at it and found a radio transmitter bug inside it. It was hard to hide bugs in those days. Back then, the U.S. government was an amateur in the spy game, compared to the Russians and the British. I gather it still is. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:53:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28KrFmx012477; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:53:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28KrDRx012456; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:53:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:53:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:52:38 -0600 Message-ID: <001b01c761c3$bfaab060$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308142140.0372be10@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdhucxuloRKzNN6QIaFGL2HOiPgkwACZPPw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73550 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jed, >>Remember back in the sixties when it was a felony to open your >>telephone and modify it? > That is preposterous. The 1933 FCC rules forbade attachment to the telephone network of any device "not furnished by the telephone company." They said nothing about opening up telephones. Millions of people opened up telephones in the 1960s, including me. I'm not questioning whether you or anybody else opened your telephones. The Bell telephones we had when I was a kid had a label on the bottom that said it was a felony to open a telephone. Maybe someone on this list still has a 1960s Bell telephone with its label still attached? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:55:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28KtMlE014050; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:55:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28KtLn8014034; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:55:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:55:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F07835.9020805@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:55:17 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73551 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > There has been lively debate in regards to whether E=mc^2 is an accurate > mathematical equation to describe whether energy is actually being converted > back and forth between mass and energy. No doubt many are likely to consider > it outrageous to challenge considering who came up with the equation in the > first place. > > The following questions I want to ask are not only addressed to Stephen > Lawrence, but to Dave Thompson and anyone else who would care to add their > two cents worth: > > I presume no one disputes the fact that individual masses belonging to > neutrons and protons contained within atomic nuclei become less as these sub > atomic particles are "fused" – that is, up to the element of Fe, iron. It is > my understanding that Fe is considered to reside at the bottom of the > so-called "energy well." As such, collectively speaking, protons and > neutrons within Fe are presumably considered to be their lightest "mass" as > measured individually. They can never exhibit less "mass" individually when > measured within other non-Fe elements. I also presume no one cares to > dispute the fact that individual protons and neutrons pertaining to nuclei > greater than Fe suddenly reverse that trend. They begin to systematically > increase in individual mass as elements gradually climb up the atomic number > scale. > > I've never felt a desire to challenge these assumptions, and still don't. > However, something *is* beginning to twitch in the back of my mind. > > First, the setup: > > When a highly unstable radioactive element such as U235 is suddenly created, > such as when a single stray neutron invades the nucleus, we all know that > the atom shatters violently creating a random collection of smaller nuclei, > that along with a deadly collection of independent neutrons, thus the "chain > reaction" is born. > > And here's my conundrum: > > When these smaller atomic nuclei are created wouldn't that also mean that > the individual protons and neutrons within these lighter elements have to > suddenly regain lost mass if their atomic number is less that Fe? WHAT KINDS > OR WHAT RATIO OF LIGHTER ELEMENTS TEND TO BE GENERATED? One could google "uranium fission products". I just did that, and it appears that, as one might have guessed, aside from the free neutrons which are spat out, the products are all heavier than iron. See, for instance, http://www.uic.com.au/uicphys.htm Note particularly the graph "Distribution of fission products of Uranium-235": http://www.uic.com.au/graphics/fissU235.gif While a large spread of nuclei are produced, the smallest atomic weight typically produced is about 75. Iron's atomic weight is 56. Of course, it's also true that for the process to be exothermic, all that's needed is that the sum of the rest masses of the fission products be less than the rest mass of the original nucleus. That's likely to be true even if some of the products are lighter than iron (which is certainly the case, if only because two of the "fission products" are free neutrons!). > On average which > side of the Fe "energy well" are these lighter elements created on? I assume > it's a very messy/random affair where all sorts of lighter elements are > created, where many created elements are indeed less than the atomic number > of Fe, but that's speculation on my part. I could be wrong. If, however, > this *is* the case, where more elements lighter than Fe do tend to be > created on average, it does beg a nagging question as to where the extra > "mass" suddenly comes from in order to replenish the lost "mass" when these > smaller elements are created from the demise of a U235 atom. On top of that, > shouldn't all of the independently created neutrons ejected from the > destroyed U235 atom also suddenly possess a much higher atomic mass, > specifically that of an individual neutron? If memory serves me correctly > the mass of an independent neutron is one of the heaviest (per individual > neutron mass) in the table of elements. Where does all this "mass" come > from, particularly since so much destructive radioactive energy is being > released as U235 destroys itself. > > What am I missing here? Again, the sum of the masses of the decay products is less than the mass of the original nucleus. Some of the pieces are above iron in the table, some are below, but on balance, the aggregate of the fallout is "closer to" iron than uranium was. When nitroglycerin explodes it does so in an extremely messy reaction which may leave behind some reactive molecules. The fact that those bits and pieces are still reactive, however, doesn't affect the overall picture, which is that there was a lot more energy tied up in the original molecule than there is in the "fragments" after it breaks. When gasoline burns in an internal combustion engine one byproduct, IIRC, can be ozone. Yet ozone is "more energetic" than oxygen. But, again, there's no contradiction, because overall, the reaction went "down hill": the original molecules contained more energy than the final aggregate of pieces. Finally, uranium itself may seem to be a puzzle: Where did it come from? What reaction formed it? The universe started with hydrogen; how did atoms like uranium "climb the energy hill"? The answer, as I understand it, is supernova explosions: There is so much energy released in the explosion, that some amount of it may get "soaked up" again in the core of the exploding star by _endothermic_ fusion reactions which do not normally take place. Supernovas would burn even hotter than they do if they weren't using up some energy creating superheavy nuclei. (Interesting conclusion: A lot of the Earth was formed from the ash of supernova explosions, presumably of stars which vanished long before the solar system was formed.) > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 12:59:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28KwgWI006073; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:58:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28Kwex7006057; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:58:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:58:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IW8Mnm60rE5XbjIrJbpiG8n1hbJvzcyTM9VK1NDZjCIhGgVh/Chm7qSzZafnacPY; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:58:30 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308153941.036e9ec8@mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26096d98f825189e681599b242028ba947322601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <__Fcx.A.geB.AkH8FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73552 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, well! The old phone systems. disconnected the transmitter (carbon mouth piece) element from the phone line, by direct open contact. If you dispute this get an old phone and check it out. In the older systems it was not possible without modification. I was the principal in NSI (search for that) that did covert electronics in the Pacific Northwest. We did sweeps and installs, we were the first with laser window monitoring and tracking by vehicle mounted xmitter. Really I do know what I'm talking about. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:51 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Stiffler Scientific wrote: >1) Prior to ESS phone systems, the old relay banks did not work well for >covert monitoring. It did require intervention from the phone company that >controlled the switches. It was possible to bridge a line and have it >monitored via another line, yet the best method was to connect to the >physical line and monitor or record it from the pole or a hidden battery >operated system close to the location. I believe you are talking about tapping phone conversations. David Thompson claimed that the NSA could listen to conversations in the room when the phone was on-hook, which is what the Russians used to do: "That is because the circuits have a feature that allows the NSA to dial your number and hear everything going on near your telephone, even without making it ring or be lifted off the receiver." To tap a phone call, there was never any need to add equipment to the telephone sets, or go into the target house or office. As noted, this is done from the central office or nearby equipment. On the other hand you would have to modify the set to record sounds from the room when the phone is on-hook. The Russians used the phone set or some other equipment attached to the phone line. Even in 1945 they used radios. After V.E. day they presented the U.S. Ambassador with a large "Victory Eagle" sculpture which he proudly displayed in his office. One day the U.S. technicians had a look at it and found a radio transmitter bug inside it. It was hard to hide bugs in those days. Back then, the U.S. government was an amateur in the spy game, compared to the Russians and the British. I gather it still is. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 13:15:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28LF3mF004091; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:15:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28LF0iN004063; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:15:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:15:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308160647.03732d78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:09:53 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308153941.036e9ec8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73553 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stiffler Scientific wrote: >Well, well! > >The old phone systems. disconnected the transmitter (carbon mouth piece) >element from the phone line, by direct open contact. If you dispute this get >an old phone and check it out. In the older systems it was not possible >without modification. I do not dispute it. That's what I meant. You had to send someone in to modify the phone order to listen into conversations in the room. I am sure the phone sets in Russian hotels came that way. Probably still do. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 14:19:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28MJRbo009473; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:19:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28MJPuv009453; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:19:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:19:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:20:11 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73554 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. Status: O X-Status: I scanned and uploaded a derivation of E = mc^2 which does not use the mathematical formalism of Special Relativity. Four pages from Max Born's book _Einstein's Theory of Relativity_ (about 1M): http://web.ncf.ca/eo200/derivation.html Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 14:20:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28MKdrJ010163; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:20:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28MKcrU010133; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:20:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:20:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:19:54 -0600 Message-ID: <001d01c761cf$f3714600$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F07835.9020805@pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdhxGY7NKScsEJBSme1FGIvM45g0QAArA6g Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73555 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen, > Finally, uranium itself may seem to be a puzzle: Where did it come from? What reaction formed it? The universe started with hydrogen; how did atoms like uranium "climb the energy hill"? The answer, as I understand it, is supernova explosions: The supernova explosion theory is a favorite among steady-state physicists. The problem with the theory is the distribution of uranium on the Earth. If uranium is produced in supernova explosions, why does it only occur in certain types of soil and rocks? The same goes for gold, lead, and other heavy metals. Also, if the Earth were formed from supernova dust, the heaviest elements should be at the core of the Earth, not on its surface. Present understanding of the Earth's core suggests it is solid iron, a relatively light metal. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 14:40:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28Me6j6017734; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:40:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28Me4n7017710; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:40:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:40:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZPfOVBvlDfpTre2kQuy5vvj7JhlWlSFZ6ODcop3d/Gb9wg7+RxUi61ePw+7G1L6FfLO42RAicR2sRU1iwDV1ftY9czgJZlIPmoyFIViyDTgoDJ0gNSqYWmnb+w2JK6IlF1q+/uid/Yo0DEyNzr5ftDiDigpTRfX4W0rJo5I60eM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HVQ2MQeV+3phw7sDN52tHxxOiSohWVBpIil2q9CumcK7wff4hB5dhNQqrGwqhDHjf9f3WT4T5dNQckMp6llM56Hqsegb5X0UQRFm8I9pEwhkCGwxRLD2ovdtpqlWmjzjxIUG6tLS76i+ENU5q8ZNN7woYHCChnO6zDrxZjEITcI= Message-ID: <45F090B8.6040700@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:39:52 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? References: <001701c761b6$77dd4340$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001701c761b6$77dd4340$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73556 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: [snip] > Does it really surprise you that NSA is involved in VISTA? > They have been involved from the beginning since > Windows 95, only now they are getting an upgrade and you are paying > for it. How else are they going to pay for these black projects? I've always wondered how there could be a Windows update just about every month that fixed a critical security hole. I'm a computer programmer and it just boggles my mind how anyone could possibly write software with so many continuous security holes. Any thoughts on Linux or Mac? [snip] Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 14:48:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28Mmcl9021249; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:48:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28Mmbpr021229; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:48:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:48:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d6301c761d4$33b5ec30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <004901c75bf3$aa12ae40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E6E488.9030609@gmail.com> <002601c75c68$e32b5310$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E82EEC.4010303@gmail.com> <009201c75d27$841b0720$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E8E297.3080105@pobox.com> <005e01c75e5f$67728150$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45EB0BEC.9080702@gmail.com> <45EE43E6.30309@pobox.com> <45EEEA13.2010303@gmail.com> <0c1c01c760f1$9f6500d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45EF1A7A.7050604@gmail.com> <0c8401c76164$9990b550$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F03586.4060302@gmail.com> <0ce001c761a6$614fbeb0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070308122526.0372be10@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:50:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l28MmY1M021191 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73557 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > Michel Jullian wrote: > >>The highly OU commercial ambient air energy pumping devices I was >>talking about are those residential heating heat pumps we have been >>discussing in the 'loop closed' thread, they commonly reach COPs of >>4 (1000W out for 250W in, the excess coming from ambient air). > > I thought this thread was a joke. The 'loop closed' thread you mean? It was a joke indeed, I said so and I explained why the overall loop COP was necessarily sub unity. Still, these things have high COPs, much higher than what has been achieved by e.g. cold fusion, or even present hot fusion devices for that matter. > A heat pump is NOT over unity. I don't get it. You mean overunity doesn't mean a COP>1 !? Or that the coefficient of performance isn't the ratio of output to input energy? Or that COP is not a proper term for heat pumps? Or that heat pumps don't have COPS over unity? Or that it matters whether the excess energy comes from ambient air or from e.g. fusion inside the device? > Using old-fashioned terminology, a heat pump moves heat from a cold > "reservoir" to a hot one. When you drive a heat engine with the heat > from the hot reservoir, the heat engine produces less energy overall > than the heat pump consumed. > > The "COP" of 4 refers to the amount of heat energy moved versus the > amount expended by the machine, but you cannot move that same heat > back the other direction with a heat engine and get back 4 times > input, because the hot reservoir is only a little warmer than the > cold one, and Carnot efficiency is low. > > Let me give an imaginary example with round numbers. Suppose you live > in Florida where you need to heat a house only a little more than the > surroundings. You run a gasoline powered heat pump -- a very > efficient heat pump with a COP of 6. It converts 20% of the starting > energy into air conditioner power, which then moves 5 * 20% into the 6*20% you mean > house = 120% of the original fuel. > > You can burn 1000 joules worth of fuel in the house, or use the same > amount of fuel in the heat pump to move 1200 joules of heat from the > surroundings into the house. But, the temperature difference between > the house and the surrounding is 5 deg C (6 deg C with the heat > pump), and when you attach a heat pump to the house and let the heat heat engine you mean > flow through it, it is only 1% efficient, so the 1200 joules converts > to 12 joules of useful work. It is physically impossible for any heat > engine to convert the heat back into 1000 joules of work, or more. Sure, that's what I said in the 'loop closed thread'. So what? > If you only want to make the hot reservoir a little warmer than the > surroundings, a heat pump can achieve very high C.O.P.s of 10 or > more, but in no case can you reverse the process with a heat engine > and get more out than you put in. > > - Jed > All this is quite correct, except the typos I pointed out. Also a gasoline powered heat pump as in your example is not very energy efficient (overall COP 1.2 in your example of 1000J in, 1200J out for a 5°C difference), electrical ones have much better overall COPs (e.g. 250W in, 1000W out as I said, by consuming 250W from the mains you get the same heating power as a 1000W electrical heater, nothing magical though). Anyway, so what? I don't understand your objections. Or do you mean that your definition of overunity is in fact that the overall COP _with a hypothetical heat engine attached_ should be over unity? Honestly I really don't get it. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 15:07:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28N7QQa027713; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:07:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28N7Oim027696; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:07:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:07:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:06:45 -0600 Message-ID: <001e01c761d6$7c9d2ec0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdh0Dj0Re0H6dkKT36OSnDQzBR60gAAnjOA Resent-Message-ID: <25hOe.A.nwG.scJ8FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73558 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Harry, Thanks for posting the derivation. This is one of those cases where E=mc^2 appears to be true, because the math predicts a value that is useful. As I pointed out, however, E=mc^2 is not always true, such as in the case of nuclear binding and unbinding. Nuclear fission, regardless of what isotope is involved, results in the unbinding of nuclei and hence should absorb energy and convert it to matter. This is not the case. As for the ballistic example in Max Born's book, this is also derived in the Aether Physics Model, but in a different form. Unlike the example in the book, where energy, mass, light waves, or radiation are physically defined, I present a theory where the photon is quantum and precisely defined, as is all matter. In the Aether Physics Model, all physical existence traces back to three non-material things; Gforce, dark matter, and singularity. From these three non-material things, I can mathematically construct the entire physical Universe. The structural theory even correctly predicts the binding energies of all 1s orbital electrons, and will likely predict all the electron and nuclear binding energies when the theory is finished. This is something that E=mc^2 cannot do. In the mass/energy paradigm, mass, energy, photons, and light are spoken of only in a general sense. There are no definitions for how these units relate to physical objects, which is the subject of physics. In fact, we are explicitly told that mass is not the same thing as matter. As such, there is no meaning to the equivalence of mass and energy. Yes, it is true that there are isolated cases where one can use E=mc^2 to gain a useful result. These cases will always involve photons, since photons are the only thing capable of traveling at the speed of light. The equation cannot be used for dense matter, such as atomic nuclei. Another case where E=mc^2 fails is the observation of energetic nuclei from stellar blasts, or cosmic rays. Cosmic rays can be entire aluminum nuclei, stripped of all electrons, and still travel at or near the speed of light. According to E=mc^2, as an object approaches the speed of light, its mass approached infinity. No such thing happens with cosmic rays. Another false prediction of SR is that it doesn't matter which object is moving what velocity, since it is believed there is no fixed reference frame. Yet, when cosmic rays come streaming through the Earth, the Earth's mass does not approach infinity, either. In fact, there is no reference frame that exhibits infinite mass increase. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 4:20 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. I scanned and uploaded a derivation of E = mc^2 which does not use the mathematical formalism of Special Relativity. Four pages from Max Born's book _Einstein's Theory of Relativity_ (about 1M): http://web.ncf.ca/eo200/derivation.html Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 15:41:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l28Nfk3L011318; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:41:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l28NfiiK011305; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:41:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:41:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:41:08 -0600 Message-ID: <001f01c761db$4861a780$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F090B8.6040700@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdh0x8Iow7L/TLqQtasGZOC7JfnBgAA18qQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73559 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Paul, > Any thoughts on Linux or Mac? The government's business is to know what its citizens are doing. You realize there are computer science divisions of the NSA and CIA, right? Do you really think they are sitting back and letting new technology defeat them? I only know a tiny bit about programming, having given up after VB3. There were too many changes and too much new documentation to read through. But I did learn that a lot of the key code is directly compiled in binary and encrypted. I don't know how much of Linux falls in this category, particularly since it is supposed to be open source. Yet, there are several commercial packagers of Linux these days. What did they add, and who are "they"? MAC is proprietary. What would Steve Jobs say if the CIA cornered him and claimed it was a matter of national security? I don't know, but I imagine that since he remained in business he has friends somewhere. This much, obviously, is speculation and pure conspiracy theory. However, the fact that Windows has had so many "security flaws" is a matter of public record. Perhaps you remember when Windows first started using VB Script that it was possible to literally write a few lines and completely wipe out someone's computer with an email message. The reasoning for allowing this was something like, "well let them try it and see what we do to them in court." It was as though they believed the world was filled with docile sheep and no wolves. Knowing a little about VB programming, I would never use the technology or open any emails with attachments or scripts. But boy, they sure did have some major virus attacks, and often by kids with too much time on their hands. Now XP Pro has this gawd awful automatic update feature. In the middle of the night they are loading new software into my computer to "fix security flaws." Okay, if it were a few megabytes two or three times a year, maybe. But when I checked my loaded software list in the Control Panel, there are several gigabytes of fixes being installed three times per week, sometimes. I had to shut it off because it literally filled 5 gigabytes of my only free space in just one month after completely reformatting the drive. I had to delete needed programs for the time being just so I could defragment the drive. Windows XP Pro was supposed to be top of the line, rock solid software. In my mind, especially because of my dad's career in the top echelons of the military, I feel like my computer is being searched constantly. There certainly have been many instances where my computers were sending huge amounts of data over the Internet for long periods of time. Of course, knowing that I'm a person of interest, I just stay out of trouble and don't care if they want to see what's on my hard drive. It's just the inconvenience resulting in lost system resources that bothers me. I've been keen to the government's intelligence interests for a long time. I'm always looking for their slipups, like the "last phone calls" that quickly emerged after 9/11. One time I caught an FBI agent tailing me as I was heading to a Wal-Mart store. When I got to the store, he parked on the side of the building and left his vehicle to follow me in. I double backed through the vending machine entrance and spent five minutes peering through the dark windows in his car just to piss him off and let him know I saw him. When he caught on and came back to his car, I just smiled at him, he smiled back, and I walked away. I knew he was FBI because I saw him in front of the local Federal building looking into my car at the Radio Shack electronic lab sitting on my front seat. This was just a day or two after the first truck bombing of the WTC. For all my whining, I really don't mind the snoops. I think they are doing a great job at protecting our country and not abusing the rights of our citizens (for the most part). Aside from getting sloppy with their snoop work, they have done nothing to interfere with any of my freedoms in spite of my colorful past. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 17:28:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l291SR7D006964; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:28:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l291SNwg006921; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:28:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:28:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:28:14 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001d01c761cf$f3714600$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73561 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Dave, > > Hi Stephen, [Lawrence] > > > Finally, uranium itself may seem to be a puzzle: Where did it come > from? What reaction formed it? The universe started with hydrogen; how > did atoms like uranium "climb the energy hill"? The answer, as I > understand it, is supernova explosions: > > The supernova explosion theory is a favorite among steady-state > physicists. The problem with the theory is the distribution of > uranium on the Earth. If uranium is produced in supernova > explosions, why does it only occur in certain types of soil and > rocks? The same goes for gold, lead, and other heavy metals. > Also, if the Earth were formed from supernova dust, the heaviest > elements should be at the core of the Earth, not on its surface. > Present understanding of the Earth's core suggests it is solid iron, a > relatively light metal. > > Dave > The Fe (iron) "energy well" explanation where "energy" (as elaborated by Mr. Lawrence) seems to be released from the fission of heavier than Fe elements still strikes me as a plausable explanation - not that I care to cast dispersions on the Aether theory. OTOH, as you point out why *ARE* there all these heavy elements near the surface of the planet, versus where they ought to be, at the core. The fact that these elements only tend to be found in certain types of soil suggests to me that there may indeed be some form of transmutation occurring. ;-) It's an intriguing thought. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 17:28:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l291SQmb031135; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:28:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l291SNDj031060; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:28:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:28:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:28:10 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001e01c761d6$7c9d2ec0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73560 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Dave, ... > Another false prediction of SR is that it doesn't matter which object is > moving what velocity, since it is believed there is no fixed reference > frame. Yet, when cosmic rays come streaming through the Earth, > the Earth's mass does not approach infinity, either. In fact, there is > no reference frame that exhibits infinite mass increase. > > Dave OTOH it's my understanding that time dilation has been confirmed. Extremely brief half-life's of certain sub atomic particles that are speeding close to C have been detected to decay within a slowed down time period reference from our perspective. At least, that's my understanding. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 18:02:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2922Tjb016904; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:02:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2922Rfk016883; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:02:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:02:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c761ee$fd533d30$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308153941.036e9ec8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070308160647.03732d78@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:02:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <86GXMB.A.qHE.zAM8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73562 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy Vorts, Used to be plenty of snooping on the Dime Box Texas telephone system back when we used hand crank up auto-dialing features. Every snoop in town would lift up their phone and listen in to the most intimate conversations and latest gossip. Can you imagine the size of the building outside D.C. that houses the main listening and recording devices that save all the chatter. The air time used by teens alone on their cell phones would simply overwhelm any recording device.. The Gob'ment ain't got a big enough recorder...and not enough people to sift through it. Keep in mind what is important... more energy was expended stiffing Scooter Libby than a gazillion terror suspects. Ah! D.C. Where no principle is so sacred that it can not be sacrificed for position, advantage or gain .. and .. where it is not as important to win as it is to make sure the other guy loses. We fret over the unimportant, thinking the Gob'ment is important... only they think they are important. The purpose of Gob'ment is to create sufficent chaos to make people depend on themselves. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 18:39:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l292dLVc031453; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:39:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l292dK0D031438; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:39:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:39:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:40:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? In-reply-to: <45F053A8.2000307@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73563 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These days I am more concerned with Big Sister than Big Brother. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 18:50:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l292obsv004045; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:50:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l292obuT004036; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:50:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:50:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:50:33 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1nh1v2lgotco31of1lpuv077j1aeclbrdf@4ax.com> References: <45F07835.9020805@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45F07835.9020805@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 9 Mar 2007 02:50:33 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l292oYwN004000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73564 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:55:17 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Finally, uranium itself may seem to be a puzzle: Where did it come >from? What reaction formed it? The universe started with hydrogen; how >did atoms like uranium "climb the energy hill"? The answer, as I >understand it, is supernova explosions: There is so much energy >released in the explosion, that some amount of it may get "soaked up" >again in the core of the exploding star by _endothermic_ fusion >reactions which do not normally take place. The standard answer is that even heavy elements like uranium still profit from fusion with a neutron. IOW the mass of the product is less than that of the ingredients. During a supernova explosion, masses of free neutrons are produced, some of which fuse with elements heavier then iron to create even heavier elements. I presume this means that first many neutrons fuse with nuclei till very heavy isotopes are created which then consequently undergo rapid beta decay, and convert into heavier elements before the supply of neutrons runs out (Supernova's don't last very long). Of course some of these heavy elements can be recycled, and end up in new stars, which then get bumped another few levels during the next supernova. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 18:59:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l292xmAr007247; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:59:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l292xfef007210; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:59:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 18:59:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd/D lattice: emission of charged particles Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:59:38 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070307115242.03737c40@mindspring.com> <45EEF398.4030505@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45EEF398.4030505@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 9 Mar 2007 02:59:37 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l292xcpv007188 Resent-Message-ID: <73EHo.A.mwB.d2M8FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73565 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:17:12 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Understood. Now, would you like to take a stab at explaining the >"electron capture model" ? > I believe the basic premise is that a proton temporarily captures an electron becoming a neutron (with "borrowed" energy?), which is then absorbed by another nucleus, releasing more energy than was borrowed to form the neutron. Personally, I think Hydrinos are a more likely explanation. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 19:34:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l293YgMr031858; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:34:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l293YfKF031825; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:34:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:34:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 22:35:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. In-reply-to: <001e01c761d6$7c9d2ec0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73566 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Harry, > > Thanks for posting the derivation. You're welcome. > This is one of those cases where E=mc^2 appears to be true, because the math > predicts a value that is useful. As I pointed out, however, E=mc^2 is not > always true, such as in the case of nuclear binding and unbinding. > > Nuclear fission, regardless of what isotope is involved, results in the > unbinding of nuclei and hence should absorb energy and convert it to matter. > This is not the case. It is not the case because nuclei heavier than iron tend to be inherently unstable. But I am no expert in nuclear physics. > As for the ballistic example in Max Born's book, this is also derived in the > Aether Physics Model, but in a different form. > > Unlike the example in the book, where energy, mass, light waves, or > radiation are physically defined, I present a theory where the photon is > quantum and precisely defined, as is all matter. In the Aether Physics > Model, all physical existence traces back to three non-material things; > Gforce, dark matter, and singularity. From these three non-material things, > I can mathematically construct the entire physical Universe. The structural > theory even correctly predicts the binding energies of all 1s orbital > electrons, and will likely predict all the electron and nuclear binding > energies when the theory is finished. This is something that E=mc^2 cannot > do. > > In the mass/energy paradigm, mass, energy, photons, and light are spoken of > only in a general sense. There are no definitions for how these units > relate to physical objects, which is the subject of physics. The units of classical mechanics relate very well to the physical objects of the mechanical arts. > In fact, we > are explicitly told that mass is not the same thing as matter. As such, > there is no meaning to the equivalence of mass and energy. > > Yes, it is true that there are isolated cases where one can use E=mc^2 to > gain a useful result. These cases will always involve photons, since > photons are the only thing capable of traveling at the speed of light. The > equation cannot be used for dense matter, such as atomic nuclei. Another > case where E=mc^2 fails is the observation of energetic nuclei from stellar > blasts, or cosmic rays. Cosmic rays can be entire aluminum nuclei, stripped > of all electrons, and still travel at or near the speed of light. According > to E=mc^2, as an object approaches the speed of light, its mass approached > infinity. No such thing happens with cosmic rays. > > Another false prediction of SR is that it doesn't matter which object is > moving what velocity, since it is believed there is no fixed reference > frame. Yet, when cosmic rays come streaming through the Earth, the Earth's > mass does not approach infinity, either. In fact, there is no reference > frame that exhibits infinite mass increase. > > Dave I am not here to defend Einstein's relativism. In fact I even question Newton's and Galileo's relativism. Harry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 4:20 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. > > > I scanned and uploaded a derivation of E = mc^2 which does not use > the mathematical formalism of Special Relativity. > > Four pages from Max Born's book _Einstein's Theory of Relativity_ > (about 1M): > > http://web.ncf.ca/eo200/derivation.html > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 20:39:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l294dOsr001760; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:39:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l294dLOV001739; Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:39:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:39:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 23:40:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy In-reply-to: <0d6301c761d4$33b5ec30$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73567 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> The highly OU commercial ambient air energy pumping devices I was >>> talking about are those residential heating heat pumps we have been >>> discussing in the 'loop closed' thread, they commonly reach COPs of >>> 4 (1000W out for 250W in, the excess coming from ambient air). >> >> I thought this thread was a joke. > > The 'loop closed' thread you mean? It was a joke indeed, I said so and I > explained why the overall loop COP was necessarily sub unity. Still, these > things have high COPs, much higher than what has been achieved by e.g. cold > fusion, or even present hot fusion devices for that matter. > >> A heat pump is NOT over unity. > > I don't get it. You mean overunity doesn't mean a COP>1 !? Or that the > coefficient of performance isn't the ratio of output to input energy? Or that > COP is not a proper term for heat pumps? Or that heat pumps don't have COPS > over unity? Or that it matters whether the excess energy comes from ambient > air or from e.g. fusion inside the device? COP is the ratio of output power to input power. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 01:11:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l299BXs8023730; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 01:11:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l299BUEQ023707; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 01:11:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 01:11:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0dc501c7622b$36c6c320$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:13:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l299BT7u023686 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73568 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jed Rothwell" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy >> >> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>>> The highly OU commercial ambient air energy pumping devices I was >>>> talking about are those residential heating heat pumps we have been >>>> discussing in the 'loop closed' thread, they commonly reach COPs of >>>> 4 (1000W out for 250W in, the excess coming from ambient air). >>> >>> I thought this thread was a joke. >> >> The 'loop closed' thread you mean? It was a joke indeed, I said so and I >> explained why the overall loop COP was necessarily sub unity. Still, these >> things have high COPs, much higher than what has been achieved by e.g. cold >> fusion, or even present hot fusion devices for that matter. >> >>> A heat pump is NOT over unity. >> >> I don't get it. You mean overunity doesn't mean a COP>1 !? Or that the >> coefficient of performance isn't the ratio of output to input energy? Or that >> COP is not a proper term for heat pumps? Or that heat pumps don't have COPS >> over unity? Or that it matters whether the excess energy comes from ambient >> air or from e.g. fusion inside the device? > > > COP is the ratio of output power to input power. > > Harry Same thing actually: Eout/Ein = Pout*t / Pin*t = Pout/Pin Jed's COP=1.2 example was given in terms of energy (1200 joules out / 1000 joules in), my COP=4 example was in terms of power (1000 watts out / 250 watts in). Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 04:30:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29CUVSr022941; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:30:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29CUMbm022901; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:30:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:30:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:29:55 -0600 Message-ID: <000901c76246$af25c7b0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdh9HU6jm3v1tKPQ0aP3gVep8opfQAUh1DA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73569 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Harry, > These days I am more concerned with Big Sister than Big Brother. Why is that? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 04:39:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29CddqB026804; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:39:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29Cdbsx026784; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:39:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:39:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:39:11 -0600 Message-ID: <005101c76247$f9fb8940$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdh6p+Gf5TnyfsqTWmxYt71PH2O1gAXBSIw Resent-Message-ID: <73Q1fC.A.ciG.JWV8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73570 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steven, > OTOH it's my understanding that time dilation has been confirmed. Extremely brief half-life's of certain sub atomic particles that are speeding close to C have been detected to decay within a slowed down time period reference from our perspective. At least, that's my understanding. Time dilation, as I have stated earlier, was quantified by Lorentz based upon the MMX. It doesn't surprise me then, that the effect has been observed in decaying muons. The discussion is about whether the dimension of mass is equal or equivalent to the unit of energy and whether this equivalence explains the physical world. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 04:49:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29Cn3Qp001818; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:49:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29CmwIn001783; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:48:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:48:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:48:29 -0600 Message-ID: <005201c76249$465b4630$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdh6qMaLN2CA06PROG5UpULfn1I2QAXWXgw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steven, > The Fe (iron) "energy well" explanation where "energy" (as elaborated by Mr. Lawrence) seems to be released from the fission of heavier than Fe elements still strikes me as a plausable explanation - not that I care to cast dispersions on the Aether theory. There is no "dispersion" cast upon the Aether theory in pointing out which elements experience fusion and which experience fission. It is completely irrelevant to the point that fission and fusion are specific phenomena. Fusion is thought to be caused by the binding of nucleons, and fission is thought to be caused by the unbinding of nucleons. If the binding process converts mass to energy, then logically the unbinding process should convert energy to mass. Due to conservation of energy laws, the energy released during binding should be equal to the energy absorbed by unbinding. Once again, I'm not questioning the empirical data showing that both processes release energy, I'm questioning whether the physics is explained by E=mc^2. > OTOH, as you point out why *ARE* there all these heavy elements near the surface of the planet, versus where they ought to be, at the core. The fact that these elements only tend to be found in certain types of soil suggests to me that there may indeed be some form of transmutation occurring. ;-) > It's an intriguing thought. Quite often people look at the Aether Physics Model as though it belongs to me. It doesn't. The physics belongs to everyone interested in science. It is for everyone else's benefit that they can investigate a new quantum theory and obtain a better understanding of the physical Universe. I think I'm getting tired of trying to show people the Aether Physics Model. I'm ready to just turn within and work on my own development and let people discover the answers to physics for themselves. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 06:39:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29Ecl0n031993; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:38:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29Ecit3031937; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:38:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=CrRxMZvD6kimiQkOkTdVAmawd9yEfarAkIY0OOqI0oRqOkEWuLha1WJXE2BqLN5OA1OsYoZSaEY3Dvbs34pG1aVY0WPyDBODJH+pVmZrMJNJXXZ3Lus5RmGIokZyBgHWRPbZyTQJd4WVibiXS0OXYXmDsscEdl+SYPO/6Zb6GoM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=It/zpcjZo347VwYpdR6Zphz+iRhkem2CjlJK2gTRxriemT+PyFfMgSDZynR2Q4pGIkxMCJlptYUI7FYER4o7HxPCo6RnxXIGjSDTViFgHlNtPEnsczs3lNEQwgQ3SYYhseVx/pH1KStAYQGV9+4IR39Rxx9cOnyKMKR2H5Vm5g0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:38:40 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Spooky Radar Status: O X-Status: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2027227,00.html US defence contractor looks for quantum leap in radar research David Adam Tuesday March 6, 2007 The Guardian They designed an exploding cigar to kill Fidel Castro and hired fortune-tellers to fight the cold war. Now the US military is taking its war on terror where even Albert Einstein feared to tread - into the baffling world of quantum mechanics. Lockheed Martin, a main US defence contractor, thinks it can exploit research on the fringes of theoretical physics to build the ultimate radar, which could see through anything, from buildings to solid earth. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 07:02:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29F2A1T019676; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:02:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29F27fp019663; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:02:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:02:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:02:01 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_9d27a936a5cfe9376f1d12d4e789d626" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070309150221.4C09C3FA048@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: <_ivjhD.A.JzE.ubX8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_9d27a936a5cfe9376f1d12d4e789d626 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, Aspects of SR have always intrigued me, perhaps for its Alice-in-Wunderland spatial analysis qualities. With that qualification in mind... ... > Another false prediction of SR is that it doesn't matter > which object is moving [at] what velocity, since it is believed > there is no fixed reference frame. Yet, when cosmic rays > come streaming through the Earth, the Earth's mass does not > approach infinity, either. In fact, there is no reference > frame that exhibits infinite mass increase. > > Dave This is an interesting observation, one that wanders precariously into the realms of exotic philosophy and unsolvable Zen koans, rather than hard-core physics. My response to the alleged contradiction would be that it only matters (no pun intended) in regards to the point-of-view being taken at the time the personal observation is being made, which inevitably raises the question as to whose perception of the "universe" is the correct one. IMHO, we will only succeed in tying ourselves into unsolvable knots similar to religious fanaticism if we insist there MUST exist an ABSOLUTE frame of reference. SR, would seem to suggest there ain't no such animal and never was - period. I guess I should make a confession here and state for the record that those kinds paradoxical observations have always appealed to my new-agey POV. In more prosaic terms it depends on which frame of reference point is being assumed in order to EXPERIENCE THE OBSERVATION. If the observer assumes the relative speed of the speeding cosmic ray then the Earthly atom collided with "magically" becomes the culprit possessing the extra "mass." A very subtle point I think that is missed here is that the observation only makes sense in regards to the TWO ATOMIC NUCLEI that interact/collide with each other. The observation does not make any practical sense if extrapolated to include all the rest of the Earthly atoms that have not been interacted with, even though that might seem to be a natural conclusion to draw. OTOH, if we are at rest with all the rest of the atoms on planet Earth we can assume that the extra "mass" resides in the speeding cosmic ray being interacted with. This suggests that it is incorrect to assume that extra "mass" exists in all other speeding earthly atoms, as referenced from the point of view of the speeding cosmic ray). Likewise, it is incorrect to assume that other cosmic rays that may be flying around (but have NOT been collided with) possess extra "mass" either. Bottom line: It's only whom you're having the brief torrid affair with that counts. Everyone else are just innocent bystanders in which there is only the potential to have a brief torrid affair with. Such Zen koan-like observations invariably raise the legitimate question as to HOW is it that this extra "mass" can behave in such a fickle manner. After all - WHO REALLY POSSESSES THE EXTRA MASS!!!! IMHO, the extra "mass" really doesn't exist per-say, but rather the extra "mass" is simply being used as an expedient vehicle in order to make the SR equations make sense. But perhaps I have exceeded my area of expertise on the matter. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_9d27a936a5cfe9376f1d12d4e789d626 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave,

Aspects of SR have always intrigued me, perhaps for its Alice-in-Wunderland= spatial analysis qualities. With that qualification in mind...

...

> Another false prediction of SR is that it doesn't matter
> which object is moving [at] what velocity, since it is believed
> there is no fixed reference frame. Yet, when cosmic rays
> come streaming through the Earth, the Earth's mass does not
> approach infinity, either. In fact, there is no reference
> frame that exhibits infinite mass increase.
>
> Dave

This is an interesting observation, one that wanders precariously into the = realms of exotic philosophy and unsolvable Zen koans, rather than hard-core= physics. My response to the alleged contradiction would be that it only ma= tters (no pun intended) in regards to the point-of-view being taken at the = time the personal observation is being made, which inevitably raises the qu= estion as to whose perception of the "universe" is the correct one. IMHO, w= e will only succeed in tying ourselves into unsolvable knots similar to rel= igious fanaticism if we insist there MUST exist an ABSOLUTE frame of refere= nce. SR, would seem to suggest there ain't no such animal and never was - = period. I guess I should make a confession here and state for the record th= at those kinds paradoxical observations have always appealed to my new-agey= POV.

In more prosaic terms it depends on which frame of reference point is being= assumed in order to EXPERIENCE THE OBSERVATION. If the observer assumes th= e relative speed of the speeding cosmic ray then the Earthly atom collided = with "magically" becomes the culprit possessing the extra "mass." A very su= btle point I think that is missed here is that the observation only makes s= ense in regards to the TWO ATOMIC NUCLEI that interact/collide with each ot= her. The observation does not make any practical sense if extrapolated to i= nclude all the rest of the Earthly atoms that have not been interacted with= , even though that might seem to be a natural conclusion to draw. OTOH, if = we are at rest with all the rest of the atoms on planet Earth we can assume= that the extra "mass" resides in the speeding cosmic ray being interacted = with.

This suggests that it is incorrect to assume that extra "mass" exists in al= l other speeding earthly atoms, as referenced from the point of view of the= speeding cosmic ray). Likewise, it is incorrect to assume that other cosmi= c rays that may be flying around (but have NOT been collided with) possess = extra "mass" either.

Bottom line: It's only whom you're having the brief torrid affair with that= counts. Everyone else are just innocent bystanders in which there is only = the potential to have a brief torrid affair with.

Such Zen koan-like observations invariably raise the legitimate question as= to HOW is it that this extra "mass" can behave in such a fickle manner. Af= ter all - WHO REALLY POSSESSES THE EXTRA MASS!!!! IMHO, the extra "mass" re= ally doesn't exist per-say, but rather the extra "mass" is simply being use= d as an expedient vehicle in order to make the SR equations make sense. But= perhaps I have exceeded my area of expertise on the matter. ;-)

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_9d27a936a5cfe9376f1d12d4e789d626-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 07:27:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29FRM2r028739; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:27:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29FRLn0028721; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:27:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:27:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=QD0mtaaFm9w7Y8zB0yFfOYXUzV+saLN49lJj9KDCtme7STLlrMy0EqafwUEQdQjD7n0A+vlcgakIoetcZS3I6/EN5/crvNKUJigrSu4efh0rK883uD0mkLDpxC18+glMytbvaNO7jknU2vnlbXPFa8aBQLnL4vnj561vX1C5EVQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=JPwtpjeRqSJaJMpoQwTlCcFGENlPnLBdckf5uwG9irzyP8zC6Km9K1F30+H4oRPBMmEix13bggojQiKWB4IpQKPlL81FnOXsobLIhuelGi2gcRhn+UZtnrhPglsQlge9dkdJnB+Amlo2pHP1uzKwXcX4PM8rVUQckiF/WCDiFJY= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:27:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: BEV vs FCEV Status: O X-Status: I saw a cute statement in this argument: "It's easier to deliver an electron than a proton." Of course, with H2 you get both. :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 07:56:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29Ftk77002053; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:55:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29FtiEv002026; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:55:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 07:55:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail0.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:55:42 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_5ca45bef2f26d10b09f0f3ad08e56e6e" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070309155542.2EB53AA5D8@mail0.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy (and the American Way) Status: O X-Status: --=_5ca45bef2f26d10b09f0f3ad08e56e6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave ... > I think I'm getting tired of trying to show people > the Aether Physics Model. I'm ready to just turn > within and work on my own development and let people > discover the answers to physics for themselves. > > Dave > I'll risk making another observation, one that perhaps wasn't really asked to be explored. Nevertheless, I'll offer it up anyway. You have stated more than once that you are getting "tired" of revealing what the Aether theory has to offer, that it can suggest better mechanisms than perhaps what Einstein's revered formula, E=MC^2, would suggest in regards to certain aspects of physics. I also gather you want to "turn within" to further develop your own inner resources, which out of respect will remain private & unexplored within this public forum. It remains, however, my suspicion that you have been cursed with the heavy burden of having been exposed to some mysterious alien-like agent in you life, perhaps causing a mutation, causing you to become a super "crime fighter". Perhaps you were exposed to too many of those damned green rocks during your early formative childhood years, like all those poor souls seen in the fluffy and harmless entertainment TV show Smallville. Likewise, maybe I been exposed to equivalent "green rocks" somewhere in my childhood as well. Perhaps I was abducted by aliens and they "altered" my genetic code in order to... Blah, blah, blah... You may indeed need to recharge your batteries. OTOH, I don't suspect that you will be able to leave these debates alone for too long. It would not surprise me that sooner or later you will need return and fight the battle again and again - until truth, justice, and the American way have been restored. Such is the noble curse of the super crime fighter. They have no choice in the matter. As such, all super crime fighters need a Fortress of Solitude in which to occasionally retreat to. May your fortress recharge you. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.orionworks.com --=_5ca45bef2f26d10b09f0f3ad08e56e6e Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Dave

...

> I think I'm getting tired of trying to show people
> the Aether Physics Model. I'm ready to just turn
> within and work on my own development and let people
> discover the answers to physics for themselves.
>
> Dave
>

I'll risk making another observation, one that perhaps wasn't really asked = to be explored. Nevertheless, I'll offer it up anyway.

You have stated more than once that you are getting "tired" of revealing wh= at the Aether theory has to offer, that it can suggest better mechanisms th= an perhaps what Einstein's revered formula, E=3DMC^2, would suggest in rega= rds to certain aspects of physics. I also gather you want to "turn within" = to further develop your own inner resources, which out of respect will rema= in private & unexplored within this public forum.

It remains, however, my suspicion that you have been cursed with the heavy = burden of having been exposed to some mysterious alien-like agent in you li= fe, perhaps causing a mutation, causing you to become a super "crime fighte= r". Perhaps you were exposed to too many of those damned green rocks during= your early formative childhood years, like all those poor souls seen in th= e fluffy and harmless entertainment TV show Smallville. Likewise, maybe I b= een exposed to equivalent "green rocks" somewhere in my childhood as well. = Perhaps I was abducted by aliens and they "altered" my genetic code in orde= r to... Blah, blah, blah...

You may indeed need to recharge your batteries. OTOH, I don't suspect that = you will be able to leave these debates alone for too long. It would not su= rprise me that sooner or later you will need return and fight the battle ag= ain and again - until truth, justice, and the American way have been restor= ed.

Such is the noble curse of the super crime fighter. They have no choice in = the matter. As such, all super crime fighters need a Fortress of Solitude i= n which to occasionally retreat to. May your fortress recharge you.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.orionworks.com
--=_5ca45bef2f26d10b09f0f3ad08e56e6e-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 08:35:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29GZjqP028062; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:35:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29GZiD8028040; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:35:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:35:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:35:23 -0600 Message-ID: <001201c76268$f8ab5f90$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C76236.AE10EF90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdiXQ81WVeR14e6QGW2KQf4abLmXAAC8/VA In-Reply-To: <20070309150221.4C09C3FA048@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C76236.AE10EF90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Terry, > IMHO, we will only succeed in tying ourselves into unsolvable knots similar to religious fanaticism if we insist there MUST exist an ABSOLUTE frame of reference. SR, would seem to suggest there ain't no such animal and never was - period. Ah, but that is the key. SR is not based upon physical observations, but assumptions. It's claim that there can be no absolute frame of reference is therefore just as much a religious fanaticism as any other unfounded assumption. OTOH, the Aether Physics Model specifically claims that each subatomic particle MUST exist in an ABSOLUTE frame of reference ONLY with the quantum of Aether unit in which it resides. To put it another way, matter does not move through space-time, but rather matter is encapsulated by space-time and space-time moves relative to space-time. Sounds kind of strange at first, until you realize that that is exactly how the rest of the fluid Universe works. A leaf on a calm day merely rests peacefully upon the surface of a river, yet the river flows and carries the leaf with it. The Gulf Stream is a body of water within the Atlantic Ocean, which moves relative to the Sargasso Sea and carries all sorts of particles within its fluid. Dust particles float aimlessly within the atmosphere, as it flows fluid-like around the planet relative to other regions of atmosphere. Is it any surprise that matter would also float within the sea of Aether, each subatomic particle encapsulated by its own quantum of space-time? Here we get both absolute frames of reference and relativity ala Lorentz. Can't ask for better than that. There's a little to please everyone, and it is all based upon empirical constants and data. > The observation does not make any practical sense if extrapolated to include all the rest of the Earthly atoms that have not been interacted with, even though that might seem to be a natural conclusion to draw. Yet, that is exactly what SR claims. Each particle is its own observer. Although, I have often pointed this out as another error in SR theory. If 40 people watch a collision, does the collision then have 40 times the energy it otherwise would have had if there were only one observer? Obviously not. As you correctly deduce, the only observer of importance is the one involved in a collision with the moving particle. But even still, if a single aluminum nucleus were traveling at the speed of light, and its mass approached infinity, according to E=mc^2 the amount of energy in the collision would also be near infinite. This has not been observed. > Such Zen koan-like observations invariably raise the legitimate question as to HOW is it that this extra "mass" can behave in such a fickle manner. After all - WHO REALLY POSSESSES THE EXTRA MASS!!!! IMHO, the extra "mass" really doesn't exist per-say, but rather the extra "mass" is simply being used as an expedient vehicle in order to make the SR equations make sense. But perhaps I have exceeded my area of expertise on the matter. ;-) The concept of "extra mass" is meaningless. Mass is merely a dimension. Mass is not a substance that can increase or decrease in value of itself. As an analogy, if we join two ten feet long pipes together, we get twenty feet of pipe, not twenty feet of length. The dimension of length did not increase, but the overall value of the pipes' length increased. This will be a sticking point for many people, but if you are interested in the subtleties of Zen Buddhism, you should have no difficulty grasping the difference between the dimension of length and the thing it measures. The same goes for mass. There is the dimension of mass, and when it is given a value, it becomes the measurement of inertia. Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C76236.AE10EF90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Terry,

 

> IMHO, we will = only succeed in tying ourselves into unsolvable knots similar to religious fanaticism if we insist there MUST exist an ABSOLUTE frame of reference. = SR, would seem to suggest there ain't no such animal and never was - period. =

 

Ah, but that is the key.  SR = is not based upon physical observations, but assumptions.  It’s claim that = there can be no absolute frame of reference is therefore just as much a religious fanaticism as any other unfounded = assumption.

 

OTOH, the Aether Physics Model specifically claims that each subatomic particle MUST exist in an = ABSOLUTE frame of reference ONLY with the quantum of Aether unit in which it = resides.  To put it another way, matter does not move through space-time, but rather = matter is encapsulated by space-time and space-time moves relative to = space-time.  Sounds kind of strange at first, until you realize that that is exactly = how the rest of the fluid Universe works. 

 

A leaf on a calm day merely rests peacefully upon the surface of a river, yet the river flows and carries = the leaf with it.  The Gulf Stream is a body of water within the = Atlantic Ocean, which moves relative to the Sargasso = Sea and carries all sorts of particles within its fluid.  Dust particles = float aimlessly within the atmosphere, as it flows fluid-like around the = planet relative to other regions of atmosphere.  Is it any surprise that = matter would also float within the sea of Aether, each = subatomic particle encapsulated by its own quantum of = space-time?

 

Here we get both absolute frames of reference and relativity ala Lorentz.  Can’t ask for better = than that.  There’s a little to please everyone, and it is all based upon = empirical constants and data.

 

> The observation = does not make any practical sense if extrapolated to include all the rest of the = Earthly atoms that have not been interacted with, even though that might seem to = be a natural conclusion to draw.

 

=

Yet, that is exactly what SR = claims.  Each particle is its own observer.  Although, I have often pointed this = out as another error in SR theory.  If 40 people watch a collision, does = the collision then have 40 times the energy it otherwise would have had if there were = only one observer?  Obviously not.  As you correctly deduce, the = only observer of importance is the one involved in a collision with the moving = particle.  But even still, if a single aluminum nucleus were traveling at the speed of = light, and its mass approached infinity, according to E=3Dmc^2 the amount of = energy in the collision would also be near infinite.  This has not been = observed.

 

=

> Such Zen = koan-like observations invariably raise the legitimate question as to HOW is it = that this extra "mass" can behave in such a fickle manner. After all - = WHO REALLY POSSESSES THE EXTRA MASS!!!! IMHO, the extra "mass" = really doesn't exist per-say, but rather the extra "mass" is simply = being used as an expedient vehicle in order to make the SR equations make = sense. But perhaps I have exceeded my area of expertise on the matter. ;-)

 

=

The concept of “extra = mass” is meaningless.  Mass is merely a dimension.  Mass is not a substance that can = increase or decrease in value of itself.  As an analogy, if we join two ten = feet long pipes together, we get twenty feet of pipe, not twenty feet of length.  = The dimension of length did not increase, but the overall value of the pipes’ = length increased.  This will be a sticking point for many people, but if you are interested = in the subtleties of Zen Buddhism, you should have no difficulty grasping the = difference between the dimension of length and the thing it measures.  The = same goes for mass.  There is the dimension of mass, and when it is given a = value, it becomes the measurement of inertia.

 

=

Dave

 

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C76236.AE10EF90-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 08:36:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29GaZW7024604; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:36:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29GaXb1024583; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:36:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:36:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=mkoBzbRRB2Kcb+WdVZGeZjc3Tryc0b7/yjLsZ7vrmeTd6zNSNMuW8dTufmqkp8iVVsT9PqXbgULhkdOvKRTAec9tZHuLbh6XZjTcQ4WC0O1xbX6vDXswPNi/hrGIPbF6a09oDmOIK2SAxTPl0St227Jc6u1D+U7WROZg7yFAYqU= ; X-YMail-OSG: MwIr6WQVM1lxJD28qlCu1EED1t_10is5o8tFI7fugJr1_9DAHScHF4xuWDS4dVjpTYZ.fcGfPdVDTTP.6NlEzXoCiogwvVYstu0C8V7KnaldVnQvTDl6JlDJp5jCzlxvl6mOIYs5sL_O2g-- Message-ID: <45F18D06.4020909@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:36:22 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Outrage !! Status: O X-Status: This is the Petrocracy at works, folks: http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2007/03/01/news/local_news/1021491.txt From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 08:51:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29GpaZJ000936; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:51:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29GpYuC000919; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:51:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:51:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ea801c7626b$30550750$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45F18D06.4020909@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:51:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l29GpWEi000893 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Outrage !! Status: O X-Status: Outrageous indeed! There is a related case here in France where they want to charge a farmer who's been selling vegetable oil as a fuel a tax called the "TIPP", where the PP initials mean "produits petroliers", which is even more outrageous than this story since the product he sells isn't petroleum based! Extract of the article you linked us to: -------------- "I think it's inappropriate of state dollars to send two people to Mr. Wetzel's home to do this. They could have done with a more friendly approach. It could have been done on the phone. To use an intimidation factor on this - who is he harming? Two revenue agents. You'd think there's a better use of their time," Watson said. -------------- Not to mention the CO2 emissions, the cherry on the cake! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 5:36 PM Subject: [Vo]: Outrage !! > This is the Petrocracy at works, folks: > > http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2007/03/01/news/local_news/1021491.txt > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 08:57:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29GvAQb003283; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:57:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29Gv9tm003265; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:57:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:57:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WBnyjbzKVRZTAfJnVLxZy/1TmtG18PbUCRCIXJliEsIo2+BohiXPzefdQOWIyVcGpOJg8zEwxDVMzCzuphQLMVIvtA3jGLZeg990QdMzs1tC0DKvNK56Zd6RU1xPpL300wkWjxqPL5z3yQDGrdS93cYJdM3hVouYvXJF7By3Sk4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Jkw0BRqJgm6P5DWSUVU+aYCvB21oNKHbKfedWBmDcBwpHfOAFuaf01eFIWmPgpERxprpPPAuMLe3+oyML1SvrQ5NB2DjsQ+XL08VdFdxqkNsVEmp6mTyEPOI7no6Z6ss8UyVxaAhNOBkylB++zZtQR4TUP8akVK17ZAvSTsOlBk= Message-ID: <45F191D9.700@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 08:56:57 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy References: <005201c76249$465b4630$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <005201c76249$465b4630$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > I think I'm getting tired of trying to show people the Aether Physics Model. > I'm ready to just turn within and work on my own development and let people > discover the answers to physics for themselves. Sorry to jump in, as my time only permits me to follow my own threads at Vo. I'm not taking sides with anyone, but had a few pennies to toss in. I'm not a QM specialist, but I know something about QM. In QM the vacuum or empty space is not empty. This is very clear in quantum physics. This is called the vacuum energy, which is the lowest possible energy, the ground state. In QM there are violations in the conservation of energy, but such violations occurs only for brief moment in time. Some may refer to such quantum fluctuations as Aether, which is fine. Although most physicists have a problem with that since there were so many flavors of Aether theories over time. Personally I think it would be respectful to title quantum space as Aether. Also in QM there are virtual particles, which would interest Aether theorists, since such virtual particles are the cause for the coulomb force, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, spontaneous emission of photons, Casimir effect, van der Waals force, Vacuum polarization, Lamb shift, and Hawking radiation. Theories are great, but a theory usually receives death ears from the science community until such a theory can correctly predict all known effects and experiments such as --> * Single electron double slit experiment. * Single photon double slit experiment. * Delayed choice experiment. * Van der Waals' forces. * Zel'dovich radiation. * Cherenkov radiation. * Hawking radiation. * Quantum tunnelling. * Casimir effect. * Unruh effect. * Quantum Hall Effect. * Quantum Zeno effect. * Quantum confinement effect. * Aharonov-Bohm effect. * Compton effect. * Photoelectric effect. * Primakoff effect. * Scharnhorst effect. * Zeeman effect. * Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect. * Schottky effect. * Peltier-Seebeck effect. * Mössbauer effect. * Meissner effect. * Leidenfrost effect. * Kaye effect. * Josephson effect. * Ferroelectric effect. * Faraday effect. * Biefeld-Brown effect, also known as electrohydrodynamics (EHD). Furthermore, the theory must use an accurate and stable method of predicting such theories such as mathematics or computer software. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 09:39:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29HdnD9023722; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:39:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29Hdl6t023676; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:39:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:39:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:39:23 -0600 Message-ID: <002501c76271$eb99f330$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdibd14YXyq3RaKT5u+1jByWs5WUQAAgMcg In-Reply-To: <45F191D9.700@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l29Hdj2F023586 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, Let me see, Einstein explained the photoelectric effect, but none of the others items in your list rings a bell when I look over his papers. I have written a 27 page basic introduction to the theory, which I had to keep as short as possible but still present the theory. In that paper, I cover several of the observations listed below, and several others could be easily derived as they are logically implied. The theory I present is mathematically correct and is modeled in MathCAD. So you are saying, "write the paper and they will read it." You haven't read it, apparently. I have presented a completely new foundation for physics, which explains many things not explained in the Standard Model, including a mathematically correct unification of the forces, an electron binding energy equation, a correction in the dimensions of charge used in units, as well as the discovery of a second type of charge. I have discovered the final force law for the strong force, which is identical in structure to Newton's and Coulomb's laws. I have quantified exactly how the physical Universe arose from non-material cause, exceeding the Big Bang theory in scope. Modern physicists get into the news for predicting the Higgs Boson, which has never been observed and never will be. Scientists get Nobel prizes for theories involving imaginary Pions and Gluons. Scientists are thrilled that their physics is confused as to whether quantum existence is a wave or a particle, and they are ecstatic to claim that quantum existence is nothing more than a probability function. Somebody comes along, uses the empirical data and constants to derive a discrete model of physics, which answers many of the questions sought by modern science, and instead of being welcomed, he is told to go back to his cave until he has solved every possible problem in physics. What kind of response is that? What justification do you have to tell me that I have to single handedly rewrite all of physics before my theories can be accepted, when I present many unique discoveries and no other scientist has ever been told to do similar? Dave > Theories are great, but a theory usually receives death ears from the science community until such a theory can correctly predict all known effects and experiments such as --> * Single electron double slit experiment. * Single photon double slit experiment. * Delayed choice experiment. * Van der Waals' forces. * Zel'dovich radiation. * Cherenkov radiation. * Hawking radiation. * Quantum tunnelling. * Casimir effect. * Unruh effect. * Quantum Hall Effect. * Quantum Zeno effect. * Quantum confinement effect. * Aharonov-Bohm effect. * Compton effect. * Photoelectric effect. * Primakoff effect. * Scharnhorst effect. * Zeeman effect. * Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect. * Schottky effect. * Peltier-Seebeck effect. * Mössbauer effect. * Meissner effect. * Leidenfrost effect. * Kaye effect. * Josephson effect. * Ferroelectric effect. * Faraday effect. * Biefeld-Brown effect, also known as electrohydrodynamics (EHD). Furthermore, the theory must use an accurate and stable method of predicting such theories such as mathematics or computer software. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 10:11:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29IB9D3007449; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:11:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29IB7uh007433; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:11:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:11:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LdNV0itzfCz36mhngmVKLDdLM4BsZHVuq85lPqdCQ79XakJ/RfeAaSRALXQ9BC8t1PQ1XdQWMcxQ4ZKmjSfS7YOuvAMk0qY09HpNkkhZFYBUGU5u+EvDdKH/RxO3bG+OpGTn5maZ7teYkJolp161W0PpAXy6OdbyaeZUk1CgiYI= ; X-YMail-OSG: 7vds1eUVM1kBQHnjwDsZGVNJMmhqsQ9Bcuq9FSaENmkWiyqvoeXViiLa34Xq0Ad9KXIY2xQLjAHREAk9YwZHQPFfbaXuEPcJRecAyWJMz.vP3EfbvJJXEz9N2tA2f9RU9_HhOa5vffU0vP8- Message-ID: <45F1A338.8040805@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:11:04 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <154934.25835.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070307115242.03737c40@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070308101800.03732f40@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070308101800.03732f40@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l29IB5HO007413 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Szpak electron capture model Status: O X-Status: Fly-in-the-ointment? http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSfurtherevi.pdf There is a bit of a "turf-war" brewing here, as I had sensed. Szpak et al. sez: "A model from a chemist’s perspective that is consistent with the state of the system, imposed constraints and the nature of the electron—nucleus reaction rather than on arbitrarily assumed set of approximations, is proposed. However, from a physicist’s point of view, the theoretical arguments offered in this communication are pure speculation." That is about as carefully phrased as one will ever see such a major turf-war put-down in a peer-reviewed paper. Unfortunately for the electochemists, they may be prematurely puffing their collective chests (no offense, Pam) as their theory is pretty much a crock (at least from the physicist's, and even the armchair vortexians, POV). They continue: "Within the reaction volume, the concentration of energetic electrons ... is sufficiently large so that ... electron capture can be described as a chemical reaction ... with the neutrino escaping the reaction volume. The reaction (e-) + (D+) --> 2n is the source of low energy neutrons (Szpak, unpublished data), which are the product of the energetically weak reaction...." Oops... stop here. There are almost zero independent studies or results which show neutrons produced anywhere near to commensurate with the excess energy seen (4 orders of magnitude, say) -- yet -- they want to introduce these unpublished results to justify this bizarre ... sorry... make that 'almost physically impossible' theory. They continue "This model states that the transmutation reactions, X(n,r)Y, determine the excess power and it specifies the mechanism by which a chemical reaction can trigger a nuclear response." Maybe ... but excuse me... if the excess power is the result of neutrons, then why are no neutrons sufficient to achieve these high levels of excess energy ever seen in this kind of reaction - EXCEPT in the aforementioned "(Szpak, unpublished data)" category ? Did they expect to casually pass this small detail off without raising a few eyebrows? And on top of everything else they admit that electrons necessary to pull this off would need be in the range of 800,000 eV ... from which the secondary gammas which will surely stand-out like a sore thumb, no? Where is the gamma spectroscopy ? Are we to believe everything, based on CR-39 ? This latest chapter in the quest for LENR respectability is looking less and less certain ... I kinda wish they had just stuck with the film results, and let others (even the dreaded fizzix professionals) make the necessary "leap of faith" into a justifiable model. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 10:16:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29IGFvt005595; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:16:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29IGDVx005581; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:16:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:16:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:16:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy In-reply-to: <0dc501c7622b$36c6c320$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> COP is the ratio of output power to input power. >> >> Harry > > Same thing actually: Eout/Ein = Pout*t / Pin*t = Pout/Pin > Jed's COP=1.2 example was given in terms of energy (1200 joules out / 1000 > joules in), my COP=4 example was in terms of power (1000 watts out / 250 watts > in). > > Michel > The practical significance of the two ratios is very different. Eout/Ein says nothing about the rate at which energy needs to be supplied to the system to maintain the ratio. e.g. 1000 joules in per second and 1200 joules out per minute is not the same as 1000 watts in and 1200 watts out. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 10:43:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29IhVl4017807; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:43:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29IhUJl017794; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:43:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:43:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0f0001c7627a$d3d87920$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:43:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l29IhTeu017774 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You're right Harry it's more rigorous to define the COP as the ratio of output power to input power. Note that for heat pumps it is often used even more rigorously to describe the ratio of output (moved) thermal power to input mechanical power, i.e. taking the motor or engine's efficiency out of the equation. IMHO one can use both definitions provided one defines clearly the _system_ under study (heat pump alone, or motor+ heat pump combination, commercially called "heat pump") Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > Michel Jullian wrote: > > >>> >>> COP is the ratio of output power to input power. >>> >>> Harry >> >> Same thing actually: Eout/Ein = Pout*t / Pin*t = Pout/Pin >> Jed's COP=1.2 example was given in terms of energy (1200 joules out / 1000 >> joules in), my COP=4 example was in terms of power (1000 watts out / 250 watts >> in). >> >> Michel >> > > The practical significance of the two ratios is very different. > Eout/Ein says nothing about the rate at which energy needs to be > supplied to the system to maintain the ratio. > > e.g. 1000 joules in per second and 1200 joules out per minute > is not the same as 1000 watts in and 1200 watts out. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 10:57:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29IvBSc022610; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:57:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29Iv9u2022584; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:57:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:57:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:57:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Half full or half empty In-reply-to: <002101c760c7$8a6f0b00$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Harry, > >> Is y = xa^2 not an equation? >> Yes, it is the equation of a straight line with slope a^2. > > Of course, it is an equation. All the variables are truly variables and > have the same dimension of one. Do you really think that E=mc^2 is the > equation of a straight line with slope c^2? Are you implying that because > y=xa^2 is an equation that p=ac^2 is an equation where p is pressure, a is > acceleration, and c is the speed of light? No, because a variable with a mass dimension is missing from the right side of the equation. Besides, I was only addressing your remark about it not being an equation. > When you arbitrarily change variables to constants and assign specific > dimensions to other variables, you end up with completely different > expressions. Of course, but there is no such problem with E = mc^2. > In the case where y and x are given specific dimensions, those dimensions > have specific implied values, depending upon the system of units used. For > example, in the MKS system of units: > > joule = kilogram * (meter/second)^2 > > You cannot then arbitrarily change the unit values for meters per second to > a different value and still have an equality. > > Once you assign a constant to one of the variables, which is not consistent > with the system of units being used, but the dimension of c^2 is consistent with energy units. > the other variables cannot maintain > their dimensions within the equation. You end up with: > > y = xc^2 > > You cannot reference y as energy or x as mass. Since c was arbitrarily > chosen, x and y are now also arbitrary. You would need a system of units > where v^2 = c^2, such as in the Aether Physics Model's quantum measurements > units, in order have a dimensional equation involving c^2. > > True, there are many situations that will work as though x is mass and y is > energy, but it is not a mathematical certainty. Therefore, it is possible > for many applications of E=mc^2 to appear to be valid, but there are also > applications for where it is not. > ? Sorry, I just don't see what you see. harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 11:00:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29J0Eos023911; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:00:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29J0D3e023890; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:00:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:00:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oc1rEt7JpFcWTQYve+QARW18N1i2s6T1GIEYLZ+meDegXJiinzrJbT/GZp3wN7NXTd/7axgSosRXGusCpE7S6uToftITbayHWQBh4/r/pukrdbxwNRR/yj8/9SgKGRlB95hHCa1WCBhbuZzbcZbrjcaSXny8Hhvza4L6TYWB9f0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=V8gyKRvMiK3zmHCqkwaQ+yPKenjZvEjXUD0ODpG4udZtCJvkSCHKxxeZ60BpgTZsTnfr7FNtGi35aP2PSMcIeo4edXbg0YpiLilgt8BqKI+yphQbCl6rA+Bgqt0FO1egl27nJFKEze2Gy1va1i7gpnioYoedaUfZR15PlMBjTTw= Message-ID: <45F1AEB1.4090308@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 11:00:01 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mass versus Energy References: <002501c76271$eb99f330$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <002501c76271$eb99f330$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Let me see, Einstein explained the photoelectric effect, but none of the > others items in your list rings a bell when I look over his papers. Hi, I'll point out the difference. Einstein's paper was aimed at one thing, "The Photoelectric Effect." I provided you with a list in my previous email; e.g., Quantum tunneling. Most physicists would agree that a paper on the Photoelectric effect does not need to address Quantum tunneling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems your Aether theory is broad --> http://www.16pi2.com and includes topics such as, quoting --> --- Unified Force Theory, Structure of the Aether Structure of subatomic particles Dark matter Consciousness Origin of neutrinos Geometry of space-resonance Two manifestations of charges Geometry of charges many other physics topics. --- > I have > written a 27 page basic introduction to the theory, which I had to keep as > short as possible but still present the theory. In that paper, I cover > several of the observations listed below, and several others could be easily > derived as they are logically implied. The theory I present is > mathematically correct and is modeled in MathCAD. > > So you are saying, "write the paper and they will read it." You haven't > read it, apparently. You left out a key ingredient. Your Aether theory appears very broad. Physicists therefore *need* to hear you claim that your theory predicts the aforementioned list in addition to many other effects, experiments, etc. etc. I'll add to that list * Davisson-Germer experiment * Stern–Gerlach experiment * EPR paradox · Schrodinger's Cat > I have presented a completely new foundation for physics, which explains > many things not explained in the Standard Model, including a mathematically > correct unification of the forces, an electron binding energy equation, a > correction in the dimensions of charge used in units, as well as the > discovery of a second type of charge. I have discovered the final force law > for the strong force, which is identical in structure to Newton's and > Coulomb's laws. I have quantified exactly how the physical Universe arose > from non-material cause, exceeding the Big Bang theory in scope. No offense intended, but to save time may I ask if you are well versed in the following Quantum Physics --> * Quantum field theory * Quantum electrodynamics * Quantum chromodynamics * Quantum gravity I'm thinking that most physicists specializing in quantum physics would disagree with you. > Modern physicists get into the news for predicting the Higgs Boson, which > has never been observed and never will be. Scientists get Nobel prizes for > theories involving imaginary Pions and Gluons. I thought charged pions were verified in 1947, and the neutral pion was verified in 1950. Furthermore I thought gluons were verified in 1979. We cannot lump all scientists in the one basket since it's a vast field. > Scientists are thrilled that > their physics is confused as to whether quantum existence is a wave or a > particle, and they are ecstatic to claim that quantum existence is nothing > more than a probability function. One thing I know, a lot of people get such an impression when listening to t.v. documentaries and about QM because the public is only interested in what is called an "Interpreation" of a theory. As far as I know, there is nothing confusing about the quantum wavefunction mathematics in regards to being a particle or wave. > Somebody comes along, uses the empirical data and constants to derive a > discrete model of physics, which answers many of the questions sought by > modern science, and instead of being welcomed, he is told to go back to his > cave until he has solved every possible problem in physics. What kind of > response is that? It's a real response because --> 1. They value their time. 2. They already have a theory that predicts my aforementioned list, and a whole lot more. QED for example is presently verified to an accuracy of 10^-12, which is merely a limitation to experimental error. You cannot reasonably ask them to spend the time to go through your theory until at least you yourself verify your theory accurately predicts what QM predicts and then some. I hope you accept this. > What justification do you have to tell me that I have to > single handedly rewrite all of physics before my theories can be accepted, I'm not. Each person has their own free will, and therefore if you can find people to help you then great, but you cannot expect most physicists to do what you want. How long would it take you to go over the aforementioned list to at least verify their theory works? If it were my theory then I would be very excited to go through each item to see if the theory worked. > when I present many unique discoveries and no other scientist has ever been > told to do similar? Now that's not true. Most physicists work on a specific area. You are presenting an entirely new theory. I would advise people to study QM history, which traces back to 1838, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_quantum_mechanics Einstein's photoelectric effect paper was written in 1905, but took close to 21 years to accept. The foundations of QM began in 1838, but QM was not born until 1925. OK, so I gave you a road map how to get attention in the physics community. If it takes you a few years verify the following list along with some others then so be it. I'm not sure why it would take so long, but that's fine. Again the list --> > * Single electron double slit experiment. > * Single photon double slit experiment. > * Delayed choice experiment. > * Van der Waals' forces. > * Zel'dovich radiation. > * Cherenkov radiation. > * Hawking radiation. > * Quantum tunnelling. > * Casimir effect. > * Unruh effect. > * Quantum Hall Effect. > * Quantum Zeno effect. > * Quantum confinement effect. > * Aharonov-Bohm effect. > * Compton effect. > * Photoelectric effect. > * Primakoff effect. > * Scharnhorst effect. > * Zeeman effect. > * Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect. > * Schottky effect. > * Peltier-Seebeck effect. > * Mössbauer effect. > * Meissner effect. > * Leidenfrost effect. > * Kaye effect. > * Josephson effect. > * Ferroelectric effect. > * Faraday effect. > * Biefeld-Brown effect, also known as electrohydrodynamics (EHD). > > Furthermore, the theory must use an accurate and stable method of predicting > > such theories such as mathematics or computer software. > > and * Davisson-Germer experiment * Stern–Gerlach experiment * EPR paradox · Schrodinger's Cat Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 11:03:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29J2r53001341; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:02:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29J2qlu001336; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:02:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:02:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lZeipqyeDVKUmtJ/gm7/+J0UTeY0nsKhYJmjGA5bB72uWT0kE3bNiTJ4+bfx/aBVD6Pb76C3Ivia72x58bFEr1TG40zWJ3deRImZL6ONBnuqM4ZIQRnARb9W/T7d/ucVkCUzAfbuQ/7wb3CaVVV6jqaQc/yxjmBN5mUyBECf7UU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cGeytK1p6UWXdGkhrwDY2ucinVWEIBhGvTB5v8wfCprAQTRmyi8wfRCwjLuuI47dDdezZlWMi5RatrUlwaU2Gb8odJSgp/gyRLxSlK5o5vmqIfwAUuwGKQQhZwPJcOtGWNmmh8hYBuuHD5LH85xvt6LTvzFutHwjY72a4dJEIcU= Message-ID: <45F1AF52.9090607@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 11:02:42 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <0f0001c7627a$d3d87920$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0f0001c7627a$d3d87920$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > You're right Harry it's more rigorous to define the COP as the ratio of output power to input power. Note that for heat pumps it is often used even more rigorously to describe the ratio of output (moved) thermal power to input mechanical power, i.e. taking the motor or engine's efficiency out of the equation. > > IMHO one can use both definitions provided one defines clearly the _system_ under study (heat pump alone, or motor+ heat pump combination, commercially called "heat pump") --- I'm wondering if Tom Bearden's usage of COP is correct, or does Tom use a different COP term? [snip] Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 11:28:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29JSnmS007310; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:28:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29JSmiY007292; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:28:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:28:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:28:46 -0600 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_09fc515eb086e458593773bdbde020b4" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070309192907.1BD003FA319@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_09fc515eb086e458593773bdbde020b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello again, Dave, >> Nuclear fission, regardless of what isotope is involved, >> results in the unbinding of nuclei and hence should absorb >> energy and convert it to matter. This is not the case. > It is not the case because nuclei heavier than iron tend to > be inherently unstable. But I am no expert in nuclear physics. These two comments expressed by Mr. Thompson and Mr. Veeder appear to reveal a major bone of contention, an issue I gather that has been thrashed about for some time now. Let me approach the on-going controversy from a different perspective: Why is it always being argued that fusing atomic particles MUST always release energy no matter where we are on the atomic number scale, at least according to Einstein's E=MC^2 equation? Likewise, why is it always being argued that splitting atomic particles MUST my default always absorb energy no matter where we are on the atomic number scale, according to E=MC^2. Why? Why is it always being argued that, according to Einstein's E=MC^2, these two conditions MUST occur in ONLY this way? I don't get why this seems to be such an absolute constant in your argument. We all agree on the fact that energy is observed being released when fusing atomic nuclei, when dealing with elements under the atomic number of Fe, iron. Likewise we all agree on the fact that energy is also observed being released when atomic nuclei are split apart, when dealing with elements greater than the atomic number of Fe. In both cases, regardless of whether we are approaching Fe from above or below this magic atomic number, "mass" is reduced as measured by the remaining subatomic particles within the nuclei. Perhaps I should ask this vexing question from a different POV: How does the Aether theory explain the apparent loss of "mass" in fission interactions? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_09fc515eb086e458593773bdbde020b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello again, Dave,

>> Nuclear fission, regardless of what isotope is involved,
>> results in the unbinding of nuclei and hence should absorb
>> energy and convert it to matter. This is not the case.

> It is not the case because nuclei heavier than iron tend to
> be inherently unstable. But I am no expert in nuclear physics.

These two comments expressed by Mr. Thompson and Mr. Veeder appear to revea= l a major bone of contention, an issue I gather that has been thrashed abou= t for some time now. Let me approach the on-going controversy from a differ= ent perspective:

Why is it always being argued that fusing atomic particles MUST always rele= ase energy no matter where we are on the atomic number scale, at least acco= rding to Einstein's E=3DMC^2 equation?

Likewise, why is it always being argued that splitting atomic particles MUS= T my default always absorb energy no matter where we are on the atomic numb= er scale, according to E=3DMC^2.

Why? Why is it always being argued that, according to Einstein's E=3DMC^2, = these two conditions MUST occur in ONLY this way? I don't get why this see= ms to be such an absolute constant in your argument.

We all agree on the fact that energy is observed being released when fusing= atomic nuclei, when dealing with elements under the atomic number of Fe, i= ron. Likewise we all agree on the fact that energy is also observed being r= eleased when atomic nuclei are split apart, when dealing with elements grea= ter than the atomic number of Fe. In both cases, regardless of whether we a= re approaching Fe from above or below this magic atomic number, "mass" is r= educed as measured by the remaining subatomic particles within the nuclei.<= br />
Perhaps I should ask this vexing question from a different POV: How does th= e Aether theory explain the apparent loss of "mass" in fission interactions= ?


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_09fc515eb086e458593773bdbde020b4-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 11:52:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29Jqn5i018871; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:52:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29Jqk99018851; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:52:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:52:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Cx7PHPrNXHjEQhOac7dLdcr+/ACEPiKNGDjglkQchqHz1WaZjHXuPZYjkAy5IohWzRzZz/G8xa0wKDuLV9HVoNrPmAeDb70x6wQ7p89sDsa5ixsJgUQXX5DhY28JcXkQGDm+jl+kSnvrSg+UABFkctqc88LwmqXTptIv0paqq/Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oGfQmQbMluUF4Sz5+QNGTRZGhw+ZE0MNUiOP1Ibcz8QV8yFzBNNuNDs6ofRCbMpY7BosPATRxzjUW/OCOqHOTAWedhZwTrs6Nbd3QGIb+9xedw03x3KD6VeDr638mHk/BOtR21RXAo0Rj647Etbw8m9Isok23O25fnsIYJm7us0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:52:43 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-Reply-To: <45F18D06.4020909@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45F18D06.4020909@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm afraid their ordeal might not be over. The Feds will be next. This will become a problem for Tesla and with BEVs in general. This is also why the Gov't needs to sell a fuel . . . some kind of fuel. Highways are maintained by the federal excise tax on fuel. If you're not selling fuel, you have no $$ for highways and the corruption that goes with it. BTW, Tesla is rumored to have cut a deal with Ford for Fusion Coasters. "What's a coaster?" you might say. Well, a coaster is a automobile without a drive train. No need to waste the $$ on buying the unnecessary IC Engine (my new name . . . ICE is too cool a name for those stinkers) or tranny. Just pop in your Bettery and your Torque machine and awwaaaaaay you go! Terry On 3/9/07, Jones Beene wrote: > This is the Petrocracy at works, folks: > > http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2007/03/01/news/local_news/1021491.txt > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 11:58:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29JwhK9027609; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:58:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29Jwf8c027584; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:58:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:58:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0f2101c76281$85e85e90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <0f0001c7627a$d3d87920$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F1AF52.9090607@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:31:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l29JwdIS027528 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry if he is a friend of yours, but maybe his particular definition for COP can be guessed by reading this page... http://www.randi.org/jr/051702.html (in which Naudin is mistakenly taken for a scientist BTW, Randi even calls him "Dr Naudin" :) ...or any of the 10000 others Google finds when you search: "tom bearden" fraud Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy > Michel Jullian wrote: > --- > > You're right Harry it's more rigorous to define the COP as the ratio of > output power to input power. Note that for heat pumps it is often used even more > rigorously to describe the ratio of output (moved) thermal power to input > mechanical power, i.e. taking the motor or engine's efficiency out of the equation. > > > > IMHO one can use both definitions provided one defines clearly the _system_ > under study (heat pump alone, or motor+ heat pump combination, commercially > called "heat pump") > --- > > > I'm wondering if Tom Bearden's usage of COP is correct, or does Tom use a > different COP term? > > [snip] > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 12:05:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29K5QGb027427; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:05:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29K5PWj027409; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:05:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:05:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KoHC8bkSEdXcdz/9L9JxhmEgG7+/MFd3UIrdgAkwa5RohX9Rolh1qN5t8PvFpmL1Y/h6fZXxs2pgHSElh+HB/OsrhG8mi4hlZXgdGGpn0bYG/KDnoCsoymwz2DJIEWxf4fesS5s4kWjbiv125SnpRhXAQONY7kY545Vd4wkaAKg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bFASesVvuPWnBZZv4agkrMxY1jJblvk1hP71rmDLG+2Sm0o9Rlu6YNS0zBeSm6sWPzFVEZcQ6bnTMlAIXt+7yttACBLhuttG2cOs6Hx32gew14wkSZWVCS7+vpd88Zj/F4MwRD+tYqJAC0DjWiPfRG3KWV/srL2Qeck/A3DdyBk= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 15:05:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. In-Reply-To: <001201c76268$f8ab5f90$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070309150221.4C09C3FA048@mail2.mx.core.com> <001201c76268$f8ab5f90$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/9/07, David Thomson wrote: > > > > Hi Terry, I'm not in this thread. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 12:05:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29K5g9M027564; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:05:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29K5esF027547; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:05:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:05:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nrJiw+7vHCUEmQzQKhnEII5+wXAtQK4TGvwHPMAw0m8NPsHbopH2folbQ8Lp906WEKUowFfxQlZx6SPiUZVhIGfvB/TDn0k4W3rlgP38oLki8mlVKgfNc9YJGQm4ffQY4ZI1FiphCQSltodRsBF3dJgqF/ler1OXGPP3Ul0j358= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mN513uZ7iI+t2w9+fe/1FiFska1SVuOFqVRJGE2mwdPxOXLobAUBuGOIwSyxhpQAqdiXOrBmwqtqcUGzx0y1KwWsUNXs1Bkb7tb5UO5FcLCDj1yEjkb57EVwilCDg6Eh/IMphxzIQm/qUuS61wp+N7FsPChMgYCyql1dCNxzHyI= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 15:05:38 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: E=mc^2 without SR. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070309150221.4C09C3FA048@mail2.mx.core.com> <001201c76268$f8ab5f90$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OOps! Now I am. On 3/9/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/9/07, David Thomson wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Terry, > > > > I'm not in this thread. :-) > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 12:19:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29KJdtf004772; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:19:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29KJcjp004752; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:19:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:19:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ILfQ723lPzXdSvGelU+oezZahKT8ykyU55PoPsNRXbBauWbxTi0PzkzUJVvxUxmNMzJMYXy9bCsyKYF81Wz0Gvs/W6Y0aWi0wqGzhrVDhPT3lF39c36o0XVQTtrzUm3XHzKFww6yLLsU6AZRLNlqKCCcwbOhzATknReX1EQ+t9Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ps5wwvIwQYtqJH6JcZ92DbJUgN5zIQA/PVDBLwzekJuqC3S1EvJRZ0czAYcohzirF6TLRuTbFli2xGZgoZXr6zY7QuX1LSy56IxjanU60k8eaP18p9WCroKkVq63Ig5QW1EceV5/NzmB5BB6wPmzumTct4qR13Zbwt+AyU5C4mk= Message-ID: <45F1C14D.40302@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 12:19:25 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <0f0001c7627a$d3d87920$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F1AF52.9090607@gmail.com> <0f2101c76281$85e85e90$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0f2101c76281$85e85e90$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Sorry if he is a friend of yours, but maybe his particular definition for COP can be guessed by reading this page... > http://www.randi.org/jr/051702.html > (in which Naudin is mistakenly taken for a scientist BTW, Randi even calls him "Dr Naudin" :) > > ...or any of the 10000 others Google finds when you search: > "tom bearden" fraud Sorry, IMHO James Randi is one of the most unintelligent individuals I know of. I would be more than happy to read just about any other source. A google search on {"tom bearden" fraud} is not exactly what I had in mind as information. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 13:07:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29L7iYh031521; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:07:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29L7gvA031505; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:07:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:07:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=dBPfwEATx2bDFuzb9yC/yHt/8c9JC2FvcSwNKU7/rrU5NU985ZAN+AJXwpiYy6F3; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:07:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c911d804e764475f3e8a835536050d5c90e3ee9473917be1b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >This will become a problem for Tesla and with BEVs in general. This >is also why the Gov't needs to sell a fuel . . . some kind of fuel. >Highways are maintained by the federal excise tax on fuel. If you're >not selling fuel, you have no $$ for highways and the corruption that >goes with it. I do not think this would be a problem for the government. If cars run on electricity, they can easily tax electricity. If they run on cold fusion, the government can almost as easily tax mileage based on odometer readings, using some sort of digital odometer. The government can begin doing this after about a million people switch over to the new fuel, when the lost revenue becomes significant. I do not know whether highway taxes are more likely to invite corruption than other kinds, but I think we should have them. I seldom drive, and I know people in cities who never drive. It is unfair to ask us to pay for the highways we do not use. Of course it is okay to ask us to pay for part of them, but heavy drivers should pay much more, and trucks even more, since heavy vehicles wear out roads more quickly. I favor wider use of road tolls, using automatic detection devices rather than toll booths, so that noone has to slow down. Perhaps on-board GPS units would do the job. I think we should charge automobile drivers $1 per mile, and make public transport such as buses and trains free. Automobile drivers cause much more environmental harm than people riding on MARTA trains. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 14:11:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29MBWGJ019034; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:11:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29MBUtW019020; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:11:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:11:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Z5MKKQ6nL/FMKACZJ/XaARyql4R61Spo3ioh4yhHpkC4jSDPilplU2paa5ba+gui; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <24382566.1173478289291.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:11:29 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d835fbb2a7abc504bf9a624b1799bdb2e9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.45 Resent-Message-ID: <2En0h.A._oE.Sud8FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 9, 2007 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Mar 9, 2007 1:25 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 9, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 9 Mar 07 Washington, DC 1. GLOBAL CLIMATE: ARE THOSE WHITE URSINE CARNIVORES ENDANGERED? The Alaskan division of the Fish and Wildlife Service circulated a memo instructing biologists not discuss global warming or polar bears unless they have been designated to do so. Hmmm. A year ago NASA's top climate scientist, physicist James Hansen, was being pressured by a White House appointee to cool it on global warming http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn021006.html . NASA chief Michael Griffin put a stop to that, issuing a policy that allows scientists to speak their minds if they give their boss notice. Science owes its success to a culture of openness in which Nature is "The Decider." Anything else is just religion. 2. CHRISTIAN CLIMATE: "EVANGELICAL CLIMATE INITIATIVE" OPPOSED. "Conservative Christian" sounds like an oxymoron to me, but there is a split between the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) which has expanded its agenda to include climate change and human rights, and really conservative groups. These would include James Dobson's Focus on the Family, Gary Bauer's Coalitions for America and Tony Perkins' Family Research Council. Note: Real conservatives aren't interested in conservation. The Christian right wants to get back to fighting the real enemy sex. Sex and drugs were the downfall of Ted Haggard, who was the President of the NAE http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn110306.html . 3. OPENNESS: THE MARCH MEETING OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. The commitment of physicists to the principle of openness was tested this very morning in Denver at the APS March meeting, as it has been every year for 108 years. Roy Masters, author of "God Science and Free Energy from Gravity," was to deliver "Electricity from Gravity" at 9:36 a.m. Anyone can deliver a paper at the March Meeting. What if Masters actually succeeded in using up our gravity to keep the lights on? Not to worry. 4. ENERGY: YOU SHOULD WORRY ABOUT WHAT BUSH IS DOING IN BRAZIL. Even as Roy Masters was talking about generating energy from gravity, George W. Bush was cutting a deal with President Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva of Brazil to use ethanol. It made about as much sense. We've been through this before: Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane. We grown corn. Corn is food. The diversion of food to fuel, even at today's trivial level, has already inflated the price of corn in Mexico, sending Mexicans north for better paying jobs. Toxic waste from fermentation of sugar cane is dumped in the Amazon. We don't have an Amazon. Because the energy balance is precarious, sugar cane must be harvested in Brazil by hand. That condemns vast numbers of laborers to serfdom. We don't have serfs - yet. What we do have is lots of people who are capable of running the numbers for the President to see if ethanol is any kind of a solution. None of these people seem to be in the White House. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 14:28:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29MSZIj024949; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:28:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29MSYpB024936; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:28:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:28:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:29:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Is Big brother watching? In-reply-to: <000901c76246$af25c7b0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Harry, > >> These days I am more concerned with Big Sister than Big Brother. > > Why is that? > > Dave > Big Sister is hard at work making the sexes equal. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 14:49:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l29Mneqp010336; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:49:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l29MnZ21010307; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:49:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Spooky Radar Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:49:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:49:31 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l29MnXQr010286 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:38:40 -0500: Hi, [snip] >http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2027227,00.html > >US defence contractor looks for quantum leap in radar research > >David Adam >Tuesday March 6, 2007 >The Guardian > >They designed an exploding cigar to kill Fidel Castro and hired >fortune-tellers to fight the cold war. Now the US military is taking >its war on terror where even Albert Einstein feared to tread - into >the baffling world of quantum mechanics. Lockheed Martin, a main US >defence contractor, thinks it can exploit research on the fringes of >theoretical physics to build the ultimate radar, which could see >through anything, from buildings to solid earth. > > ..it will even find the WMD you don't have..;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 17:09:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2A19Kki007398; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:09:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2A19I5w007375; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:09:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:09:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:09:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! > I do not know whether highway taxes are more likely to invite corruption > than other kinds, but I think we should have them. I seldom drive, and I > know people in > cities who never drive. I honestly don't know if this is a bad idea or a good idea, I don't know. However, I do find it amusing that here in Vortexland (and everywhere else for the most part) any suggestion for changing something having to do with hitting us up for more money to drive generally has the qualifier "this doesn't apply to me though..." or some such derivation. I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and probably a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. I have no choice, the economy here is devastated and will only get worse. You can do nothing here without permits for this and regulations for that, and so everything is gone. This was once a big steel area...now all the steel here is from damned China. We have to fight to make a living. Heating bills here in this frozen wasteland are enormous. We are taxed out of our homes here, literally. Those taxes are largely wasted on pork projects and the lazy. I do not want help from these corrupt people, but even if I did, I couldn't get it for a few reasons: 1., I work and make "too much money", 2., I am the wrong race. That isn't racism either, its simple fact of observation. I've been with friends who try as hard as they can, and needed some help during the coldest parts of winter, as they went for assistance downtown. They were told in no uncertain terms that they were not eligible due to income (too much of it, so called) and due to not being a minority. To tax us further, without something giving somewhere, will destroy us more. I'm just a lowly mechanic (by day anyways) and make very little. I imagine many of you high minded dreamers here on Vortex make far more and could handle this. What do you say to us? If we go, who will fix your cars? I'd like to see some of you try to fix a modern electronicized, over-emissionized, plastic-and-aluminum, engine shoehorned into the tiny engine bay car with the Bible sized wiring diagram. You will quite simply be screwed over royally. Try doing this on a hybrid, and you are adding even more difficulty. We can barely do it at our shop, as the crooks at Toyota will not sell us the tools we need. Want to change your own transmission fluid in your Mercedes-Benz? Good luck without your blue-collar mechanic's shop... Mercedes-Benz sells you the car without a dipstick! "MB WORKSHOP ONLY" printed in nice friendly letters on the transaxle dipstick handle with no dipstick connected to it. If you just guess, and overfill the transmission, oops....foaming of the fluid and the transmission is done. To go futher on about this issue of taxes and regulations, did you know that all new cars will soon be required to have sensors in the wheels to alert you of low tire pressure? I have to go to a meeting on my own time, and which I am not paid for, on March 27th to be taught how to use the new tire valves and how to reset the sensors and such should we need to plug a nail hole in a tire. Gone bye-bye are the days of punching the plug into the tire, fill 'er with air and drive off into the sunset...now it is all computerized. We need a damned SILICON tax! Who is going to pay for this crap? You are. And me, eventually, when all the old cars are gone and I have to buy something post-1995. No one needs tire pressure sensors. What people need is a working brain to get off their lazy, stupid, computer-jockey asses and learn how to make sure 32psi is in their tires. (That's PSI too...no bloody kilopascals, thanks much) New York also has the NYVIP joke as well... New York Vehicle Inspection Program. It is a computer that scans the barcode of your registration sticker so that you can do an inspection on the vehicle in question. When the computer works, of course. The Empire state, with its "vast wealth and variety of resources" bought the cheapest computers and peripherals they could find, and cobbled it together with ape-level intelligence. Then requires us to buy this thing at $3500, or sorry, we can't do inspections anymore. If your car is older than 1996, you are lucky. If 1996 or newer, you get the OBDII connector plugged into the DLC port under the dashboard, and the computer (hopefully) communicates with your vehicle's ECM, and sees if the emissions are kosher. If not, you fail inspection. But....its not necessarily if your emissions are excessive. If your "Service Engine Soon" or "Check Engine" light is on for any reason, the computer will fail the car. You will be charged too, we can't cancel the inspection and just let you leave without getting the inspection done and get it fixed (or fix it yourself), the computer will not let us do so. If we just pull the power cord out of the wall to shut the computer down, two things happen: 1., the vehicle's ECM will likely be damaged, as the interface between the car and the inspection computer is beyond even Microsoft level of incompetence, and 2, the DMV sends someone out to "audit" us. The days of people helping people are over, ladies and gentlemen. Further, the computer crashes day in and day out, the DMV office line is always busy (the computer has to call into the DMV by modem during each inspection. [this requires a second phone line that, yep, we have to pay for!]), and the peripherals (OBDII scanner, barcode scanner) fail frequently. So all I can say is this: you want to tax me more for going to work, and doing you a service when your car breaks down, dealing with the legal system to get your car legit to drive around on your high-minded business, while plotting to tax me even more for my own good? Go to Hell. Fix the damn system that is broken first, get rid of the waste at the top, stop having thinktanks and summits and meetings to discuss what to do about the vague, undefined "problem" and DO SOMETHING! Less talking, and more solution. I have been doing my part to try and conserve, I go cold in the winter time to save gas, not because I care so much about the money, but because I honestly, in my heart, want to DO something to make a difference. I run almost exclusively fluorescent lights to save power for the same reason, even though I adore the look of a clear-enveloped incandescent. I try to take the most efficient trips to work and around town to get things I need for home, for my research, etc. Even if I have the gasoline, if I find I need something from the electronics store or hardware store, I will waste my day and wait until I am near it the next day to go and get it, just to conserve. It helps me with my money, yes, but mostly it is because I care and worry about these things so much. It has been a long time since I drove around in the summer just to enjoy driving. A good feeling of freedom on the open road that I go without, to satisfy the programming I have received from those who wish to save me from myself. If that is the future, with no joy in anything, just calculating efficiency and worth/loss all day long, metering how much energy I expend and on what merit that expenditure had, if that is where we are truly heading and there is honestly no way to have any alternative, then I pray to God that we destroy ourselves utterly, and let the world go on in peace without us. Maybe something better will come along to take our failed place. I end this rant, or vent, or maybe just cry into the night, with a bit of the lyrics from a song I like very much and feel very close to at the moment. Appropriate name for the band that performed it as well: "Tears for Fears" All around me are familiar faces, worn out places, worn out faces Bright and early for their daily races, going nowhere, going nowhere And their tears are filling up their glasses, no expression, no expression Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow, no tomorrow, no tomorrow And I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had I find it hard to tell you, cause I find it hard to take, when people run in circles, it's a very very Mad world.... Mad world.... Mad world..... --K From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 17:31:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2A1VaMQ001109; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:31:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2A1VTKT001074; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:31:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:31:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WIxT0fH+PtAp/JNphyOa53oWeUV2BEDnerJvm4CuRv6ac3x+cuZIO3mgI7yuwlouLCj6lnxmLBFWz8f8RNiuXx36YJRX12FVt5yy8YNmIEnW4MezgkJQZoR80S6WlwBxUL7rw5TsDpBWTIbBdYeP7aRAYoSDvjuYBvm37xueers= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=UWbYwJJBCFK197cNJAwBnaAGk38gKk5F4GcVrCqGbhHHqU6fjCKXd82rEh0izyYKVZw6MP8YKwO0DT0CGqvunk150O1+QOI+cdnX1yGDfhK5NEXTrvH4CcK/Sa7VhV+k45ShHc5rdslEUCoQidF7aVe9+kqYCnNlbJSDUooGsHY= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:31:26 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-Reply-To: <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7072_28811742.1173490286725" References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: <23eEEC.A.pQ.xpg8FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_7072_28811742.1173490286725 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Turn up the heater, do go for a drive in the summer and find less depressing music and maybe environment. Of course there is an answer to all of this, but it won't be found in your current mindset... Be proactive and productive, change things don't just reduce how fast you are taking a part in destroying the world, be a force for good not a smaller force for bad. On 3/10/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: ; > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! > > > > I do not know whether highway taxes are more likely to invite corruption > > than other kinds, but I think we should have them. I seldom drive, and I > > know people in > cities who never drive. > > I honestly don't know if this is a bad idea or a good idea, I don't know. > However, I do find it amusing that here in Vortexland (and everywhere else > for the most part) any suggestion for changing something having to do with > hitting us up for more money to drive generally has the qualifier "this > doesn't apply to me though..." or some such derivation. > > I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and > probably > a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. I have no choice, > the > economy here is devastated and will only get worse. You can do nothing > here > without permits for this and regulations for that, and so everything is > gone. This was once a big steel area...now all the steel here is from > damned > China. We have to fight to make a living. Heating bills here in this > frozen > wasteland are enormous. We are taxed out of our homes here, literally. > Those > taxes are largely wasted on pork projects and the lazy. I do not want help > from these corrupt people, but even if I did, I couldn't get it for a few > reasons: 1., I work and make "too much money", 2., I am the wrong race. > That > isn't racism either, its simple fact of observation. I've been with > friends > who try as hard as they can, and needed some help during the coldest parts > of winter, as they went for assistance downtown. They were told in no > uncertain terms that they were not eligible due to income (too much of it, > so called) and due to not being a minority. > > To tax us further, without something giving somewhere, will destroy us > more. > I'm just a lowly mechanic (by day anyways) and make very little. I imagine > many of you high minded dreamers here on Vortex make far more and could > handle this. What do you say to us? If we go, who will fix your cars? I'd > like to see some of you try to fix a modern electronicized, > over-emissionized, plastic-and-aluminum, engine shoehorned into the tiny > engine bay car with the Bible sized wiring diagram. You will quite simply > be > screwed over royally. Try doing this on a hybrid, and you are adding even > more difficulty. We can barely do it at our shop, as the crooks at Toyota > will not sell us the tools we need. Want to change your own transmission > fluid in your Mercedes-Benz? Good luck without your blue-collar mechanic's > shop... Mercedes-Benz sells you the car without a dipstick! "MB WORKSHOP > ONLY" printed in nice friendly letters on the transaxle dipstick handle > with > no dipstick connected to it. If you just guess, and overfill the > transmission, oops....foaming of the fluid and the transmission is done. > > To go futher on about this issue of taxes and regulations, did you know > that > all new cars will soon be required to have sensors in the wheels to alert > you of low tire pressure? I have to go to a meeting on my own time, and > which I am not paid for, on March 27th to be taught how to use the new > tire > valves and how to reset the sensors and such should we need to plug a nail > hole in a tire. Gone bye-bye are the days of punching the plug into the > tire, fill 'er with air and drive off into the sunset...now it is all > computerized. We need a damned SILICON tax! Who is going to pay for this > crap? You are. And me, eventually, when all the old cars are gone and I > have > to buy something post-1995. No one needs tire pressure sensors. What > people > need is a working brain to get off their lazy, stupid, computer-jockey > asses > and learn how to make sure 32psi is in their tires. (That's PSI too...no > bloody kilopascals, thanks much) > > New York also has the NYVIP joke as well... New York Vehicle Inspection > Program. It is a computer that scans the barcode of your registration > sticker so that you can do an inspection on the vehicle in question. When > the computer works, of course. The Empire state, with its "vast wealth and > variety of resources" bought the cheapest computers and peripherals they > could find, and cobbled it together with ape-level intelligence. Then > requires us to buy this thing at $3500, or sorry, we can't do inspections > anymore. If your car is older than 1996, you are lucky. If 1996 or newer, > you get the OBDII connector plugged into the DLC port under the dashboard, > and the computer (hopefully) communicates with your vehicle's ECM, and > sees > if the emissions are kosher. If not, you fail inspection. But....its not > necessarily if your emissions are excessive. If your "Service Engine Soon" > or "Check Engine" light is on for any reason, the computer will fail the > car. You will be charged too, we can't cancel the inspection and just let > you leave without getting the inspection done and get it fixed (or fix it > yourself), the computer will not let us do so. If we just pull the power > cord out of the wall to shut the computer down, two things happen: 1., the > vehicle's ECM will likely be damaged, as the interface between the car and > the inspection computer is beyond even Microsoft level of incompetence, > and > 2, the DMV sends someone out to "audit" us. The days of people helping > people are over, ladies and gentlemen. Further, the computer crashes day > in > and day out, the DMV office line is always busy (the computer has to call > into the DMV by modem during each inspection. [this requires a second > phone > line that, yep, we have to pay for!]), and the peripherals (OBDII scanner, > barcode scanner) fail frequently. > > So all I can say is this: you want to tax me more for going to work, and > doing you a service when your car breaks down, dealing with the legal > system > to get your car legit to drive around on your high-minded business, while > plotting to tax me even more for my own good? Go to Hell. > > Fix the damn system that is broken first, get rid of the waste at the top, > stop having thinktanks and summits and meetings to discuss what to do > about > the vague, undefined "problem" and DO SOMETHING! Less talking, and more > solution. I have been doing my part to try and conserve, I go cold in the > winter time to save gas, not because I care so much about the money, but > because I honestly, in my heart, want to DO something to make a > difference. > I run almost exclusively fluorescent lights to save power for the same > reason, even though I adore the look of a clear-enveloped incandescent. I > try to take the most efficient trips to work and around town to get things > I > need for home, for my research, etc. Even if I have the gasoline, if I > find > I need something from the electronics store or hardware store, I will > waste > my day and wait until I am near it the next day to go and get it, just to > conserve. It helps me with my money, yes, but mostly it is because I care > and worry about these things so much. It has been a long time since I > drove > around in the summer just to enjoy driving. A good feeling of freedom on > the > open road that I go without, to satisfy the programming I have received > from > those who wish to save me from myself. > > If that is the future, with no joy in anything, just calculating > efficiency > and worth/loss all day long, metering how much energy I expend and on what > merit that expenditure had, if that is where we are truly heading and > there > is honestly no way to have any alternative, then I pray to God that we > destroy ourselves utterly, and let the world go on in peace without us. > Maybe something better will come along to take our failed place. > > I end this rant, or vent, or maybe just cry into the night, with a bit of > the lyrics from a song I like very much and feel very close to at the > moment. Appropriate name for the band that performed it as well: "Tears > for > Fears" > > All around me are familiar faces, worn out places, worn out faces > Bright and early for their daily races, going nowhere, going nowhere > And their tears are filling up their glasses, no expression, no expression > Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow, no tomorrow, no tomorrow > > And I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad > The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had > I find it hard to tell you, cause I find it hard to take, > when people run in circles, it's a very very > > Mad world.... > Mad world.... > Mad world..... > > --K > > ------=_Part_7072_28811742.1173490286725 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Turn up the heater, do go for a drive in the summer and find less depressing music and maybe environment.

Of course there is an answer to all of this, but it won't be found in your current mindset...

Be proactive and productive, change things don't just reduce how fast you are taking a part in destroying the world, be a force for good not a smaller force for bad.


On 3/10/07, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; < vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !!


> I do not know whether highway taxes are more likely to invite corruption
> than other kinds, but I think we should have them. I seldom drive, and I
> know people in > cities who never drive.

I honestly don't know if this is a bad idea or a good idea, I don't know.
However, I do find it amusing that here in Vortexland (and everywhere else
for the most part) any suggestion for changing something having to do with
hitting us up for more money to drive generally has the qualifier "this
doesn't apply to me though..." or some such derivation.

I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and probably
a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. I have no choice, the
economy here is devastated and will only get worse. You can do nothing here
without permits for this and regulations for that, and so everything is
gone. This was once a big steel area...now all the steel here is from damned
China. We have to fight to make a living. Heating bills here in this frozen
wasteland are enormous. We are taxed out of our homes here, literally. Those
taxes are largely wasted on pork projects and the lazy. I do not want help
from these corrupt people, but even if I did, I couldn't get it for a few
reasons: 1., I work and make "too much money", 2., I am the wrong race. That
isn't racism either, its simple fact of observation. I've been with friends
who try as hard as they can, and needed some help during the coldest parts
of winter, as they went for assistance downtown. They were told in no
uncertain terms that they were not eligible due to income (too much of it,
so called) and due to not being a minority.

To tax us further, without something giving somewhere, will destroy us more.
I'm just a lowly mechanic (by day anyways) and make very little. I imagine
many of you high minded dreamers here on Vortex make far more and could
handle this. What do you say to us? If we go, who will fix your cars? I'd
like to see some of you try to fix a modern electronicized,
over-emissionized, plastic-and-aluminum, engine shoehorned into the tiny
engine bay car with the Bible sized wiring diagram. You will quite simply be
screwed over royally. Try doing this on a hybrid, and you are adding even
more difficulty. We can barely do it at our shop, as the crooks at Toyota
will not sell us the tools we need. Want to change your own transmission
fluid in your Mercedes-Benz? Good luck without your blue-collar mechanic's
shop... Mercedes-Benz sells you the car without a dipstick! "MB WORKSHOP
ONLY" printed in nice friendly letters on the transaxle dipstick handle with
no dipstick connected to it. If you just guess, and overfill the
transmission, oops....foaming of the fluid and the transmission is done.

To go futher on about this issue of taxes and regulations, did you know that
all new cars will soon be required to have sensors in the wheels to alert
you of low tire pressure? I have to go to a meeting on my own time, and
which I am not paid for, on March 27th to be taught how to use the new tire
valves and how to reset the sensors and such should we need to plug a nail
hole in a tire. Gone bye-bye are the days of punching the plug into the
tire, fill 'er with air and drive off into the sunset...now it is all
computerized. We need a damned SILICON tax! Who is going to pay for this
crap? You are. And me, eventually, when all the old cars are gone and I have
to buy something post-1995. No one needs tire pressure sensors. What people
need is a working brain to get off their lazy, stupid, computer-jockey asses
and learn how to make sure 32psi is in their tires. (That's PSI too...no
bloody kilopascals, thanks much)

New York also has the NYVIP joke as well... New York Vehicle Inspection
Program. It is a computer that scans the barcode of your registration
sticker so that you can do an inspection on the vehicle in question. When
the computer works, of course. The Empire state, with its "vast wealth and
variety of resources" bought the cheapest computers and peripherals they
could find, and cobbled it together with ape-level intelligence. Then
requires us to buy this thing at $3500, or sorry, we can't do inspections
anymore. If your car is older than 1996, you are lucky. If 1996 or newer,
you get the OBDII connector plugged into the DLC port under the dashboard,
and the computer (hopefully) communicates with your vehicle's ECM, and sees
if the emissions are kosher. If not, you fail inspection. But....its not
necessarily if your emissions are excessive. If your "Service Engine Soon"
or "Check Engine" light is on for any reason, the computer will fail the
car. You will be charged too, we can't cancel the inspection and just let
you leave without getting the inspection done and get it fixed (or fix it
yourself), the computer will not let us do so. If we just pull the power
cord out of the wall to shut the computer down, two things happen: 1., the
vehicle's ECM will likely be damaged, as the interface between the car and
the inspection computer is beyond even Microsoft level of incompetence, and
2, the DMV sends someone out to "audit" us. The days of people helping
people are over, ladies and gentlemen. Further, the computer crashes day in
and day out, the DMV office line is always busy (the computer has to call
into the DMV by modem during each inspection. [this requires a second phone
line that, yep, we have to pay for!]), and the peripherals (OBDII scanner,
barcode scanner) fail frequently.

So all I can say is this: you want to tax me more for going to work, and
doing you a service when your car breaks down, dealing with the legal system
to get your car legit to drive around on your high-minded business, while
plotting to tax me even more for my own good? Go to Hell.

Fix the damn system that is broken first, get rid of the waste at the top,
stop having thinktanks and summits and meetings to discuss what to do about
the vague, undefined "problem" and DO SOMETHING! Less talking, and more
solution. I have been doing my part to try and conserve, I go cold in the
winter time to save gas, not because I care so much about the money, but
because I honestly, in my heart, want to DO something to make a difference.
I run almost exclusively fluorescent lights to save power for the same
reason, even though I adore the look of a clear-enveloped incandescent. I
try to take the most efficient trips to work and around town to get things I
need for home, for my research, etc. Even if I have the gasoline, if I find
I need something from the electronics store or hardware store, I will waste
my day and wait until I am near it the next day to go and get it, just to
conserve. It helps me with my money, yes, but mostly it is because I care
and worry about these things so much. It has been a long time since I drove
around in the summer just to enjoy driving. A good feeling of freedom on the
open road that I go without, to satisfy the programming I have received from
those who wish to save me from myself.

If that is the future, with no joy in anything, just calculating efficiency
and worth/loss all day long, metering how much energy I expend and on what
merit that expenditure had, if that is where we are truly heading and there
is honestly no way to have any alternative, then I pray to God that we
destroy ourselves utterly, and let the world go on in peace without us.
Maybe something better will come along to take our failed place.

I end this rant, or vent, or maybe just cry into the night, with a bit of
the lyrics from a song I like very much and feel very close to at the
moment. Appropriate name for the band that performed it as well: "Tears for
Fears"

All around me are familiar faces, worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races, going nowhere, going nowhere
And their tears are filling up their glasses, no expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow, no tomorrow, no tomorrow

And I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you, cause I find it hard to take,
when people run in circles, it's a very very

Mad world....
Mad world....
Mad world.....

--K


------=_Part_7072_28811742.1173490286725-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 19:29:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2A3StHS016173; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:28:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2A3Srfd016160; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:28:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:28:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=f12mzkGaRffOUe4Ojv1CnZoNSjUUOpD/U5j5Lbxxrs1Vspfvmm64eMlehbwDC4f2dc53KDO18GShBzrnR/DNupGfeQYszoOGXWMFOAxm+XNq24ZBxkeop/3D64Q9r4WVYeRZ6vjScW/j0xYG3Oo508jk+xIJj22dALnUPMIsdhE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Os64c3yiFVWskxMwe2R02OGUtD/GIPmTPCqZw1Z0GUCI+SmUwmd6nV1M9oY/EsCzeKDt30B0LIiVbD+6vN7a1vHaOu6rxoLbDv0dLm8wtWSv+IeiTedMsnTOi0nprm7lARkq9aJfe8vvAKmY7cnnbLAQImdUeSzO3UZiGVL2a7A= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:28:51 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-Reply-To: <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/9/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and probably > a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. The average commute in Atlanta is 34 miles one way. I personally do 23 miles one way. We have many who commute from South Carolina every day. I have a co worker who commutes from Chattanooga. T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 19:57:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2A3uqcr001947; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:56:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2A3unJn001928; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:56:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:56:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=nAL4Ha5OENgRPzTO4zSGqY2OXlzeNbxacNpeUfl6V7vPIOHriM1GzrFFL+57VpQSXvQxskrQEtls+a6H09UFiVhUF44PRx6/VkgyhCHVyDWIOPzaS1MS+IBowDEP62ZLQyEDwEx7eVlSXHo+N9Udf0/ttEkfaNwi0r/wn5mNj7w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=EJDEy849oY3wzNQdaqWlg6HbvQFg+JFgSqp2+Sz4ryOOYmQ0YzGQNvx3uviDtLfqX1oarz6DdGC6ugVuSWkUoCp2H+7WtgOsk59aw7eVp2DxENi8GxKmD0SwtqaspP0jGtBwOVlgcH0wWTVIviyaLp3H4kOeOUdFCuq8Y+JncC8= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:56:46 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7912_15753886.1173499006505" Resent-Message-ID: <5M7cBB.A.8d.Byi8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New Challenge to Jed Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_7912_15753886.1173499006505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, so the thermite, the squib explosions that can be plainly seen and heard (and recorded) and which burnt people and thew them around, and went off before the collapse and thermite detected, buildings pancaking at freefall speeds, the people doing work on the building before 911 (an unprecedented power down) and removing the bomb sniffing dogs there after, the pod (or a never before seen optical illususion on a plane?), the flash in all videos of both planes just before they hit, the total lack of evidence of a plane crash at Pennsylvania, everyone smelling cordite at the Pentagon, the calls that couldn't have been made (and the unreal conversations claimed: This is your son, Mark Bingham, You Believe me don't you? (that's how every phone conversation goes with my mother) The fact that the FBI admitted that the hijacker's ID were stolen and Arabs weren't involed and the (many identified) were still alive. (There were also no Arab names on the manifest, Autopsies showed no Arabs) The plane the Mayor claim landed, everyone was told to evacuate the airport (had to walk) and the flights either weren't scheduled or were at the wrong gates to begin with. (and the pilot of one of the planes just happened to be involved with a simulation of just such an event! What are the odds!) The patently fake Osama that looks nothing like Osama and uses the wrong hand to eat. (Osama is a lefty) Ok, so none of this is able to even warrant you looking into the evidence (as you show abundant ignorance of the position you are fighting against), well just look at this video: http://philjayhan.wordpress.com/ You can plainly see WTC7 (the Solomon Brother Building) in the background as they report it has fallen, they were 20 minutes early!!! This is not the first time, one of the well known JFK facts is that New Zealand newspapers reported stuff they couldn't have possibly known yet, again we see the media ahead of the game. The result of a presidential election was printed beforehand too once. No, obviously this won't convince you, indeed I had asked and you admitted that no evidence possibly could, at least don't pretend you position is supported by logic or evidence. This isn't something I want to believe, this isn't a political statement and it says nothing about what one expects of the future, it has nothing to do with what is easy to believe or comfortable, it has nothing to do with patriotism (well I'm a kiwi so obviously not) or what someone thinks of right .vs left or capitalist .vs communist or any other issue that may be brought up, it's about one thing, the evidence. You can't brush it aside by giving anecdotes about cold fusion, Japan or politicians. You are welcome to close your eyes, cover your ears and hum if you wish though... ------=_Part_7912_15753886.1173499006505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, so the thermite, the squib explosions that can be plainly seen and heard (and recorded) and which burnt people and thew them around, and went off before the collapse and thermite detected, buildings pancaking at freefall speeds, the people doing work on the building before 911 (an unprecedented power down) and removing the bomb sniffing dogs there after, the pod (or a never before seen optical illususion on a plane?), the flash in all videos of both planes just before they hit, the total lack of evidence of a plane crash at Pennsylvania, everyone smelling cordite at the Pentagon, the calls that couldn't have been made (and the unreal conversations claimed: This is your son, Mark Bingham, You Believe me don't you? (that's how every phone conversation goes with my mother)
The fact that the FBI admitted that the hijacker's ID were stolen and Arabs weren't involed and the (many identified) were still alive. (There were also no Arab names on the manifest, Autopsies showed no Arabs)
The plane the Mayor claim landed, everyone was told to evacuate the airport (had to walk) and the flights either weren't scheduled or were at the wrong gates to begin with. (and the pilot of one of the planes just happened to be involved with a simulation of just such an event! What are the odds!)
The patently fake Osama that looks nothing like Osama and uses the wrong hand to eat. (Osama is a lefty)

Ok, so none of this is able to even warrant you looking into the evidence (as you show abundant ignorance of the position you are fighting against), well just look at this video:
http://philjayhan.wordpress.com/

You can plainly see WTC7 (the Solomon Brother Building) in the background as they report it has fallen, they were 20 minutes early!!!

This is not the first time, one of the well known JFK facts is that New Zealand newspapers reported stuff they couldn't have possibly known yet, again we see the media ahead of the game.
The result of a presidential election was printed beforehand too once.

No, obviously this won't convince you, indeed I had asked and you admitted that no evidence possibly could, at least don't pretend you position is supported by logic or evidence.

This isn't something I want to believe, this isn't a political statement and it says nothing about what one expects of the future, it has nothing to do with what is easy to believe or comfortable, it has nothing to do with patriotism (well I'm a kiwi so obviously not) or what someone thinks of right .vs left or capitalist .vs communist or any other issue that may be brought up, it's about one thing, the evidence.

You can't brush it aside by giving anecdotes about cold fusion, Japan or politicians.

You are welcome to close your eyes, cover your ears and hum if you wish though...
------=_Part_7912_15753886.1173499006505-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 20:02:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2A42asL028377; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:02:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2A42ZsK028364; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:02:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:02:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=lKdrwQcxilTGsTjXpaBSFxg5/UGiIlvOkDenipbouLPyVCSUi32Zo8sZwLcXTCFO+pV//H9gM6Ps1NsELLNUe6W7Tl2Z52QpkRXvBmHv4n+1TxnB4XzHAbFGi5kCkaHfFt4l8AlZWXh8Lg78bbXSeumEJKM4rEtTJTxxxsOwk3Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ntCLG+jeWhPywYOQlBIf6Ei94/mKjHvr1+BDg+RNnU6N2pJHRuVhCwNvPv9ZZDdRx4y581fsp2X/r+5SJZ5MnayBzVp9bnTbv0mm4tAxZ7fUrVZTM+ZHPwArMWr4Jlpczu/DtjndXdYxiGX9WJ9oa4FYNksalg8BfWGo/iuGv1s= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:02:32 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7952_13963730.1173499352336" References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_7952_13963730.1173499352336 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Great, so $1360 a month, let's hope Jed doesn't get a job in government. Personally I think that user pays is generally a poor idea, I'm more of a flat rate all you can eat kind of guy, it is much more freeing, people don't need to be obsessing over every mile like that. But at the very least Jed's figures are 10 times too high at least, possible s much as 100 times too high. On 3/10/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 3/9/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and > probably > > a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip. > > The average commute in Atlanta is 34 miles one way. I personally do > 23 miles one way. > > We have many who commute from South Carolina every day. I have a co > worker who commutes from Chattanooga. > > T > > ------=_Part_7952_13963730.1173499352336 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Great, so $1360 a month, let's hope Jed doesn't get a job in government.

Personally I think that user pays is generally a poor idea, I'm more of a flat rate all you can eat kind of guy, it is much more freeing, people don't need to be obsessing over every mile like that.

But at the very least Jed's figures are 10 times too high at least, possible s much as 100 times too high.

On 3/10/07, Terry Blanton < hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/9/07, Kyle R. Mcallister < weir@fdscience.org> wrote:

> I drive a long way each day to work and back, compared to many, and probably
> a long way in your opinion. About 40 miles round trip.

The average commute in Atlanta is 34 miles one way.  I personally do
23 miles one way.

We have many who commute from South Carolina every day.  I  have a co
worker who commutes from Chattanooga.

T


------=_Part_7952_13963730.1173499352336-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 22:47:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2A6lC8P004593; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:47:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2A6lA27004578; Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:47:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 22:47:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F25460.1030404@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:46:56 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1LWw3C.A.VHB.uRl8FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73602 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Beardem Status: O X-Status: Michael Jullian wrote; \ Sorry if he is a friend of yours, but maybe his particular definition for COP can be guessed by reading this page... http://www.randi.org/jr/051702.html (in which Naudin is mistakenly taken for a scientist BTW, Randi even calls him "Dr Naudin" :) ...or any of the 10000 others Google finds when you search: "tom bearden" fraud Ha, "Dr." Tom Bearden and fraud, yes, I would expect at least 10,000 hits. OTOH, I'd love to see them take Randi's money. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 05:00:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AD0IbI029347; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:00:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AD0G0W029334; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:00:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:00:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0fca01c76314$0b31b050$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45EF21B2.80201@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:59:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2AD0Emr029310 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73603 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: Well, since the French translation doesn't come... ;-) Heatless explosion, interesting, I had never heard of this although when you think about it there are well known chemical reactions where volume increases while heat is absorbed, namely evaporations, so if you combine any heat-releasing reaction, explosive or not, with an evaporation reaction absorbing exactly the same heat you get an explosion which doesn't release any heat. Elementary thermochemistry, doesn't violate any LoT I am afraid. Michel (a good soul not censored by Jones's system please hit reply and send) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" ; "Michel Jullian" Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Loop closed > Michel, > > > BTW your challenge/riddle beats me, can the thing be made OU after all? > > If you mean in a circular way - "are there specific demonstrable > physical violations of the LoT, aside from LENR; and is any example > amenable to being harnessed in a device which incorporates a heat pump?" > If that is the question - and aside from LENR effects, and the hydrino, > and high-efficiency electrolysis, already mentioned - any or all of > which can be used in conjunction with a heat pump situation, there are > at least two more of these anomalous "cross-category" effects. One is > "IPE" and the other is the "entropic explosion", or the heatless bomb. > > By "cross-category" effect, I am referring to the lesser-known effects > which are not "merely" thermodynamic, and which may involve "new > physics" - either nuclear (as in induced photon emission = IPE) or > supra-chemical reactions. Supra-chemical reactions are reactions in > which atoms interact in ways which are not nuclear but involve "more > than" valence electrons - for instance: the k-shell electrons, the > Mossbauer effect and the Auger cascade - or in the case of the hydrino, > a prolonged condition below ground state in which angular momentum, or > some other form of energy may be withdrawn - which level of energy puts > the reaction above (supra) the well-know chemical reactions, which do > obey the LoT. > > Well, to cut to the chase, some time ago I mentioned the situation of > "entropic explosion". Since you probably missed a golden opportunity for > further enlightenment at that time, as it was one of those posts where > the subject line turned up missing, I will enclose an amended version below. > > I appreciate the fact that you do not enjoy long postings - and my > apologies in advance for that. I would try to shorten it more, or > translate it into French if I had the time, but for now, this will have > to do. > > Jones > > > Subject: Entropic Explosion (heatless bomb) > > First a definition: "Specific impulse" - A term used in > rocketry or munitions, commonly abbreviated (Isp) which rates the > efficiency of a propulsion system by the "impulse" (i.e. the > change in momentum) per unit of propellant. The numerical > dimension of specific impulse is either impulse per unit mass, or > impulse per unit time; differing by a factor of g, the > gravitational acceleration at the surface of the Earth. > > For example, the Specific impulse of hydrogen peroxide as a > monopropellant is about 160-175 (sec), which is most amazing since when > burned as a bipropellant with gasoline, this figure only goes up to > about 225, not even double. And this is only slightly less than hydrogen > burned with liguid oxygen - yet - the net heat energy of the gasoline is > 13 times greater per volume than the heat energy of the peroxide. Huge > anomaly. COP =5 ??? read on.... > > The anomaly, if you need it to be spelled out, is that the heat > energy of the propellant can be only moderately related to its > specific impulse. "Common sense" scientific teaching indicates > otherwise. There are only a couple of chemicals where this > particular anomaly (of heat energy not correlating to thrust) > occurs and they involve phase change. > > A particular terrorist explosive, the name of which need not be > mentioned for present purposes, is quietly in the science news > lately for a number of security-related reasons. But for > alternative energy R&D, the big news of interest is related to a > surprising but little-known physical anomaly of the chemical, > which is even absent from many (all) older University level textbooks. > > That explosive is peroxide based, but very different from conventional > explosives in that it does NOT release heat during the explosion. > > Did the full implications of that feature hit you yet? > > If not, let me repeat: this chemical explosive does not release > heat during the violent explosion! At least not very much. But it will > definitely kill you and creates the normal amount of explosive damage. > > Irony-of ironies ! Would not it be some kind of poetic justice in > the present socio-political climate if the fear-product of Islamic > terrorism led directly to a major alternative-energy advance - which > significantly lowered the demand for Middle-Eastern oil? Not as > farfetched as one might imagine. > > The process of energy conversion in explosives, just like combustion, > normally obeys thermodynamic laws and especially Boyle's Law. The > phase-change conversion of solid or liquid to gas (as in the > steam engine) normally is a product of large energy input and > temperature rise, based on combustion; and normally this results > in around a 1500-1 to 2000-1 volume change; or correspondingly - a > pressure differential of up to 3000 psi max. > > This volume and pressure swing can be easily converted into energy using > an ICE or turbine engine, as is done in power plants all over the world. > This true with or without the heat normally associated with explosions > and Boyle's Law. > > In the spirit of 'swords to plowshares' - the implication of the > aforementioned phase-change, of the bomb-anomaly variety is, of > course, that when an engine is based on a similar chemical > reaction - then the Carnot limitations and other normal measures of > energy/heat content will not apply in the same way as with real > heat engines. In other words, our normal assumptions about the > relationship of heat energy to kinetic energy are flawed in this > limited instance of peroxide-based chemicals. > > This phenomenon - which does utilize phase-change advantageously, does > not suffer the huge losses of compression in an engine, but the > thermodynamic energy balance is more complicated. This phenomenon is > scientifically known as 'Entropic Explosion'. It is reminiscent of the > rapid reaction that produces gas in the safety air-bags of cars during > accidents, where one does not want to substitute a lesser burn-injury > for a major impact injury. > > The Entropic Explosion (EE) phenomenon may serve to explain how > HOOH can be used as a monopropellant rocket fuel when its apparent > energy content is low - much lower than the specific impulse of > exhaust would indicate. > > Compared to burning hydrogen in oxygen, the specific impulse of > HOOH monopropellant shows about a five to one net advantage in > anti-entropy, when graphed against heat energy content of the two base > fuel systems. IOW, Specific impulse converts directly into torque, and > the fact that peroxide has 13 times less heat energy but only two to > three times less isp, means it is five times more efficient (COP is > arguably ~five) and "might" lead to a complicated hybrid device, > incorporating the heat pump, which appears to be overunity. > > If a fuel has a COP of five, and a heat pump has a COP of five, then > even a low efficiency engine and add-on system might suffice to both > make the fuel (on-the-fly) and achieve the same kind of self-running > which can be mis-labeled as "perpetual motion". > > But to bring readers here up to date on what is probably a new > concept to many (i.e. never before mentioned on this forum, as far > as I can tell): An "Entropic Explosion" is defined simply as an > explosion in which the reactants undergo a very large change in volume > and resultant pressure - but without releasing a correspondingly large > amount of heat. You will sometimes see the label "isothermal" expansion > applied to this, but that does not convey the same vigorous connotation. > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 05:05:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AD5XAA018551; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:05:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AD5TIa018516; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:05:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:05:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nyfKtU/hgK1o/EDZy+Or9jS/+OklRC3MGTG3+cGBea2Ce1u9nFpTRBVub9D1WT6E; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007361013516821@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:05:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403a1d9e1de336acb6e3f2716d5f074bd9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.65 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73604 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Low Temperature-High Pressure Hydroreforming of Cellulose Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Getting from cellulose (biomass wastes) to petrofuels by thermchemical means is hampered by the propensity of low temperature formation of char due to promotion of high exotherm Carbon-Carbon bonds. Might a low temperature-high pressure hydroreforming process ( less than100 C ) using a dispersed metal "catalyst" effect the favorable water-cellulose reaction: C6H10-O5 + 7 H2O ----> 6 CO2 + 12 H2 + heat Basics of Interaction and Auto-Dissociation of water on solid surfaces: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Water on Silver: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_JVSTa_1987_B.pdf Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Getting from cellulose (biomass wastes) to petrofuels by thermchemical means is hampered by the
propensity of low temperature formation of char due to promotion of high exotherm Carbon-Carbon bonds.
 
Might a low temperature-high pressure hydroreforming process ( less than100 C ) using a dispersed metal "catalyst"
effect the favorable water-cellulose reaction:
 
C6H10-O5 + 7 H2O ----> 6 CO2 + 12 H2 + heat
 
Basics of Interaction and Auto-Dissociation of  water on solid surfaces:
 
 
 
Water on Silver:
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 05:08:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AD8M7r019878; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:08:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AD8KVH019855; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:08:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:08:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0fdd01c76315$29c57d20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45EC7889.3070409@pacbell.net> <07a301c75f81$5d2d7ab0$3800a8c0@zothan> <0a7501c76053$b2b35e00$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:08:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2AD8I6x019835 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73605 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: Well, since the French translation doesn't come... ;-) Heatless explosion, interesting, I had never heard of this although when you think about it there are well known chemical reactions where volume increases while heat is absorbed, namely evaporations, so if you combine any heat-releasing reaction, explosive or not, with an evaporation reaction absorbing exactly the same heat you get an explosion which doesn't release any heat. Elementary thermochemistry, doesn't violate any LoT I am afraid. Michel (a good soul not censored by Jones's system please hit reply and send) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" ; "Michel Jullian" Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Loop closed > Michel, > > > BTW your challenge/riddle beats me, can the thing be made OU after all? > > If you mean in a circular way - "are there specific demonstrable > physical violations of the LoT, aside from LENR; and is any example > amenable to being harnessed in a device which incorporates a heat pump?" > If that is the question - and aside from LENR effects, and the hydrino, > and high-efficiency electrolysis, already mentioned - any or all of > which can be used in conjunction with a heat pump situation, there are > at least two more of these anomalous "cross-category" effects. One is > "IPE" and the other is the "entropic explosion", or the heatless bomb. > > By "cross-category" effect, I am referring to the lesser-known effects > which are not "merely" thermodynamic, and which may involve "new > physics" - either nuclear (as in induced photon emission = IPE) or > supra-chemical reactions. Supra-chemical reactions are reactions in > which atoms interact in ways which are not nuclear but involve "more > than" valence electrons - for instance: the k-shell electrons, the > Mossbauer effect and the Auger cascade - or in the case of the hydrino, > a prolonged condition below ground state in which angular momentum, or > some other form of energy may be withdrawn - which level of energy puts > the reaction above (supra) the well-know chemical reactions, which do > obey the LoT. > > Well, to cut to the chase, some time ago I mentioned the situation of > "entropic explosion". Since you probably missed a golden opportunity for > further enlightenment at that time, as it was one of those posts where > the subject line turned up missing, I will enclose an amended version below. > > I appreciate the fact that you do not enjoy long postings - and my > apologies in advance for that. I would try to shorten it more, or > translate it into French if I had the time, but for now, this will have > to do. > > Jones > > > Subject: Entropic Explosion (heatless bomb) > > First a definition: "Specific impulse" - A term used in > rocketry or munitions, commonly abbreviated (Isp) which rates the > efficiency of a propulsion system by the "impulse" (i.e. the > change in momentum) per unit of propellant. The numerical > dimension of specific impulse is either impulse per unit mass, or > impulse per unit time; differing by a factor of g, the > gravitational acceleration at the surface of the Earth. > > For example, the Specific impulse of hydrogen peroxide as a > monopropellant is about 160-175 (sec), which is most amazing since when > burned as a bipropellant with gasoline, this figure only goes up to > about 225, not even double. And this is only slightly less than hydrogen > burned with liguid oxygen - yet - the net heat energy of the gasoline is > 13 times greater per volume than the heat energy of the peroxide. Huge > anomaly. COP =5 ??? read on.... > > The anomaly, if you need it to be spelled out, is that the heat > energy of the propellant can be only moderately related to its > specific impulse. "Common sense" scientific teaching indicates > otherwise. There are only a couple of chemicals where this > particular anomaly (of heat energy not correlating to thrust) > occurs and they involve phase change. > > A particular terrorist explosive, the name of which need not be > mentioned for present purposes, is quietly in the science news > lately for a number of security-related reasons. But for > alternative energy R&D, the big news of interest is related to a > surprising but little-known physical anomaly of the chemical, > which is even absent from many (all) older University level textbooks. > > That explosive is peroxide based, but very different from conventional > explosives in that it does NOT release heat during the explosion. > > Did the full implications of that feature hit you yet? > > If not, let me repeat: this chemical explosive does not release > heat during the violent explosion! At least not very much. But it will > definitely kill you and creates the normal amount of explosive damage. > > Irony-of ironies ! Would not it be some kind of poetic justice in > the present socio-political climate if the fear-product of Islamic > terrorism led directly to a major alternative-energy advance - which > significantly lowered the demand for Middle-Eastern oil? Not as > farfetched as one might imagine. > > The process of energy conversion in explosives, just like combustion, > normally obeys thermodynamic laws and especially Boyle's Law. The > phase-change conversion of solid or liquid to gas (as in the > steam engine) normally is a product of large energy input and > temperature rise, based on combustion; and normally this results > in around a 1500-1 to 2000-1 volume change; or correspondingly - a > pressure differential of up to 3000 psi max. > > This volume and pressure swing can be easily converted into energy using > an ICE or turbine engine, as is done in power plants all over the world. > This true with or without the heat normally associated with explosions > and Boyle's Law. > > In the spirit of 'swords to plowshares' - the implication of the > aforementioned phase-change, of the bomb-anomaly variety is, of > course, that when an engine is based on a similar chemical > reaction - then the Carnot limitations and other normal measures of > energy/heat content will not apply in the same way as with real > heat engines. In other words, our normal assumptions about the > relationship of heat energy to kinetic energy are flawed in this > limited instance of peroxide-based chemicals. > > This phenomenon - which does utilize phase-change advantageously, does > not suffer the huge losses of compression in an engine, but the > thermodynamic energy balance is more complicated. This phenomenon is > scientifically known as 'Entropic Explosion'. It is reminiscent of the > rapid reaction that produces gas in the safety air-bags of cars during > accidents, where one does not want to substitute a lesser burn-injury > for a major impact injury. > > The Entropic Explosion (EE) phenomenon may serve to explain how > HOOH can be used as a monopropellant rocket fuel when its apparent > energy content is low - much lower than the specific impulse of > exhaust would indicate. > > Compared to burning hydrogen in oxygen, the specific impulse of > HOOH monopropellant shows about a five to one net advantage in > anti-entropy, when graphed against heat energy content of the two base > fuel systems. IOW, Specific impulse converts directly into torque, and > the fact that peroxide has 13 times less heat energy but only two to > three times less isp, means it is five times more efficient (COP is > arguably ~five) and "might" lead to a complicated hybrid device, > incorporating the heat pump, which appears to be overunity. > > If a fuel has a COP of five, and a heat pump has a COP of five, then > even a low efficiency engine and add-on system might suffice to both > make the fuel (on-the-fly) and achieve the same kind of self-running > which can be mis-labeled as "perpetual motion". > > But to bring readers here up to date on what is probably a new > concept to many (i.e. never before mentioned on this forum, as far > as I can tell): An "Entropic Explosion" is defined simply as an > explosion in which the reactants undergo a very large change in volume > and resultant pressure - but without releasing a correspondingly large > amount of heat. You will sometimes see the label "isothermal" expansion > applied to this, but that does not convey the same vigorous connotation. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 05:17:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2ADHS9e023378; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:17:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ADHRDd023361; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:17:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:17:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ff001c76316$71c86fa0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45EC7889.3070409@pacbell.net> <07a301c75f81$5d2d7ab0$3800a8c0@zothan> <0a7501c76053$b2b35e00$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:17:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2ADHPOK023340 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73606 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Status: O X-Status: If this gets through with the subject line intact, then the subject line disappearing problem is related to the body of the message, since I am replying to the same post as I replied in my previous post which did lose the subject line. If it doesn't... well I don't know :) Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 06:32:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AEWhvE032054; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:32:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AEWf8l032035; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:32:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:32:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:32:27 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <0ff001c76316$71c86fa0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73607 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm not sure I follow you. If the Vort messaging system stripped the subject line from your original post how could your subsequent post suddenly have the subject line placed back in - if you are replying using a subsequent post where the subject line no longer exists. Or is that not what you're saying. When you state "body of the message" are you referring to text within the SUBJECT LINE, or within the text of your message? I sure would like to understand this anomaly because it has happened to me as well, just as it has happened to many other Vort posters! Regards, Steven vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:17 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency > electrolysis) > > > If this gets through with the subject line intact, then the > subject line disappearing problem is related to the body of the > message, since I am replying to the same post as I replied in my > previous post which did lose the subject line. > > If it doesn't... well I don't know :) > > Michel > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 07:12:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AFCI2t023388; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:12:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AFCCv8023363; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:12:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DQHsijXKG7Z1rHsWbfmV2GW8vG0kYUBryQnsNSVhLKxKKojiPPeKN/CQGJoqVXPDMVGtbgWYnwOcAMJgruxPEtRxjfFj1kI45rxCSKYPugzOoh4eef/3+VlZOWJWIsmf4R+CdI+Vt8VkaJLfmyXAmaSUO+yY+VU9+YqhHnwagxg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KYlWmoxS0FM/K5Ir8rBavm8UhXQ/7RFn2SMH74MWNca60L4GR54OndbtSt9yyR6UKqV0QSAQ18NIaaicxO4ZEd8vN6HGRwEfXZT149LN9zaJHL4AoCiCAkrEuWPDapv73yYWINmBeZi+06fqpIK2gpM+vqIliASS2Y0KBnZ+Hv0= Message-ID: <45F2CABE.9010702@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:11:58 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Beardem References: <45F25460.1030404@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <45F25460.1030404@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73608 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Michael Jullian wrote; > \ > Sorry if he is a friend of yours, but maybe his particular definition > for COP can be guessed by reading this page... > http://www.randi.org/jr/051702.html > (in which Naudin is mistakenly taken for a scientist BTW, Randi even > calls him "Dr Naudin" :) > ...or any of the 10000 others Google finds when you search: > "tom bearden" fraud > > Ha, "Dr." Tom Bearden and fraud, yes, I would expect at least 10,000 > hits. OTOH, I'd love to see them take Randi's money. I don't think it's possible to get the money even if a person was legit. IMHO the probability of Randi being a fraud is higher than Tom Bearden. I've seen cases where a person challenged Randi. After I studied this person it seemed they were either extremely clever or legit. Anyhow, Randi's team canceled the whole thing based on a ridiculous excuse that Randi's life would be in danger, lol. I smell a rat and it's name is Randi. Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 07:19:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AFJgBY005395; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:19:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AFJe19005369; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:19:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:19:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c76327$7d658cb0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:19:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73609 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! > Great, so $1360 a month, . Ends up about $800 for me a month, not including picking up my fiancee from her workplace. I suppose she could quit working at the grocery store and save that gasoline....maybe high-minded individuals like Jed don't need to eat? Do they derive energy from cold fusion instead of food? I imagine someone will suggest I use the train or the bus. Won't work. No mass transit on that scale here. Believe me, when times were really hard a few years back, I tried to find a way to take the bus to work. I would either get there a couple hours early, and home a couple hours late, ruining my day and that of my fiancee, making her have to walk a long way home from work in the cold and snow, or I would get to work an hour late, and leave an hour early. It doesn't work. Jed wants this idiotic tax on mileage. But he has no solution to the real problem. This is a typical reaction these days: working on real, hardball, nuts-and-bolts solutions is just too hard...so instead, lets just be lazy and put blanket "solutions" over the problems to try and feel good about having "done something". I have heard it suggested that "global warming deniers" be punished as criminals. What about people who propose "blanket solutions" that do more harm than help? > let's hope Jed doesn't get a job in government The Republicans would like it though....it would make Bush's reign of terror look benign in comparison. > But at the very least Jed's figures are 10 times too high at least, > possible s much as 100 times too high. It is not just that.... it is that the proposed solution is absolute stupidity. But again, proposing stupidity is easy, finding real answers (or at least trying to) is bloody hard. It comes down to how motivated a person is. Or maybe I am just wasting my time looking for answers. I'll come clean a bit for a moment, and reveal a small part of my personal research, which is, trying to develop add-ons for internal combustion engines that dramatically improve efficiency and lower emissions, and in a way that is simple to repair, cheap enough for anyone, and can be adapted to existing engines. I have had failures, I have had successes. I pushed the mileage of my previous vehicle, a 1986 Chevrolet Monte Carlo with a 5.0L V8 up to 28mpg on the highway. This was with simple modifications, like a custom made camshaft, improving the spark delivery, beefing up the ignition system and timing advance, and a lot of trial and error with the Edelbrock carburetor. 28mpg is better than most passenger cars get (when tested in real life, not on the dyno), even by today's standards (excepting the hybrids, which are by no means the poor-worker's car). The exhaust had almost no smell to it, disturbingly little. This was with no catalytic converters, no AIR system, no evaporative emissions system, no EGR valve, no crap of that nature that serves only to net the dealer a lot of money when it invariably fails. I had not progressed yet to putting an exhaust heat driven system on it to further increase the efficiency (to my knowledge, that part is somewhat novel, so I won't get into it here) nor did I get a chance to spray atomized water into the intake, allowing me to further lean the mixture and advance timing without spark knock. It was before I got to do this, that the ultra-left high-minded people decided that my car was not acceptable to drive, for lack of emissions systems and having a swapped motor. When I tried to explain what I was doing, they said no. I tried to register it custom, they said no. I begged them to do a 4 gas analysis to prove that it was clean, they refused to look at it. Isn't it ironic that the high-minders who want to save us all from supposed global warming are the ones who actively seek out and destroy research? Isn't it ironic that if Jed got his way, all the money I make would be diverted to paying his stupid tax, and there would be none left for me to use to look for real world solutions, instead of his "easy chair" proposals? Much less for me to provide for my family? Hell, I'm not even married to Natalia yet and I am already taking care of her family! Her father in law apparently has ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease), so I have to help with that as well. Am I required to? No. Am I obligated to by my beliefs? YES. I spend nothing on myself besides my research, which ultimately is for the service of mankind. I spend on others to help. You want to tax all of my income away, Jed, so I can do no help for others? You are a worse enemy to the people than any poor bastard driving a junker car. The hurt and wake of destruction you would bring, should you ever ascend to a position of power is staggering. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 07:25:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AFPHkk018634; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:25:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AFPFCk018612; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:25:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:25:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:24:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73610 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! > Turn up the heater, do go for a drive in the summer and find less > depressing music and maybe environment. Unfortunately, I can't turn off my thoughts. My mind is always racing, I don't get times when I have complete relaxation of the mind. But hey, a drive sounds nice. I reckon I will take the long way to the bank this morning, and the long way home. > Of course there is an answer to all of this, but it won't be found in your > current mindset... You are right. When I am depressed, I am not nearly so productive as when I am in a more positive mindset. > Be proactive and productive, change things don't just reduce how fast you > are taking a part in destroying the world, be a force for good not a > smaller force for bad. I'm trying to. Believe me. Its just hard, sometimes so hard it hurts. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 07:28:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AFSetk012164; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:28:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AFScVq012149; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:28:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:28:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ua/YQXtYLpvAoG+qJftkP9gPA8NW8KyZDx7mv3uTHUHWzAUo1GHEZoK9gazRce3BbDn+Pz4j1cacdhybXPy3NER4TqdeSPSsff8ab1Tw7rAV9LiDo9sI5iZmTNsttKeEC+V5qjpOHdGNqLLXkVxlSU23jbMl1690FbSP1pCtiS0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KXiVN1pIkfh7xZqDnLk2YWAzGIY0cKhpD7Qxi4t//HcU+J52/BzpNdgTtlIFZHmjUJZaB3vApqMb+qDz9nWPPziHq8zcc0EUKCgDiVxYMj3rVWuJ2tBhML4xiVFJyo80xj5ZgKxiJjxP8dMCKDRKPVyxs0mhNZxSRweuJ2gWN1c= Message-ID: <45F2CE9B.4070002@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:28:27 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) [MIBs] References: <45EC7889.3070409@pacbell.net> <07a301c75f81$5d2d7ab0$3800a8c0@zothan> <0a7501c76053$b2b35e00$3800a8c0@zothan> <0ff001c76316$71c86fa0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0ff001c76316$71c86fa0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73611 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > If this gets through with the subject line intact, then the subject line disappearing problem is related to the body of the message, since I am replying to the same post as I replied in my previous post which did lose the subject line. > > If it doesn't... well I don't know :) > > Michel The subject line made it. :) A lot of my Vo emails were never delivered last year. Then I began complaining and the problem suddenly vanished ... knock on wood! Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 07:42:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AFgjnl024652; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:42:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AFghpB024634; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:42:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:42:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=U4RHSswjwzca+yYvJSYbNfzhHQXXpzIEX2Ir7CSp94EbkdtohEXSX/Ix0YG85eBP7fLQutOUI8Ryal0uT/cSA6BKbhkwYIgxur6sz/uYGFdOprBEgbxX0bdeBWREsmcZaBd+a4naw9HomRHaeST11ProAGFYCDXjdLb3YxWbH3Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PG/vNRL9jPcGzMQNVxEJXZAVJH1AgP3OtP0cXokUkMryuEzZkjYoFQyAbf6cq3I6lkSN2PnUwY3SlNOlZBi1C+8FlWlN65VBeczxCEsCnSASP+XVjobFZVFhn9HDrQAaKXvM1LduMryOcT16Y2MtaAqJm3+PKq1tOt7bC30xzf0= Message-ID: <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:42:32 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6fdP9B.A.0AG.zHt8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73612 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 08:04:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AG4lbC002788; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:04:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AG4j4V002770; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:04:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:04:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <101d01c7632d$cf231710$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:04:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2AG4eTP002726 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73613 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "OrionWorks" To: Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:32 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) > I'm not sure I follow you. > > If the Vort messaging system stripped the subject line from your original > post how could your subsequent post suddenly have the subject line placed > back in - if you are replying using a subsequent post where the subject line > no longer exists. Or is that not what you're saying. No, what I mean is that I made two posts P1 and P2 replying to one same post P0, so the subject lines of P1 and P2 were strictly identical, automatically derived from P0's subject line by my email software. P1 had its subject line stripped, whereas P2 had its subject line intact. Conclusion: the problem doesn't lie in the original subject line itself. The bodies (contents, excluding the subject line) were different, so maybe the problem lies in the body, or in the length of the body (P2 was shorter). It's the first time I experienced the problem, this may be because I usually write shorter posts. Michel > When you state "body of the message" are you referring to text within the > SUBJECT LINE, or within the text of your message? > > I sure would like to understand this anomaly because it has happened to me > as well, just as it has happened to many other Vort posters! > > Regards, > Steven vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] >> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:17 AM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency >> electrolysis) >> >> >> If this gets through with the subject line intact, then the >> subject line disappearing problem is related to the body of the >> message, since I am replying to the same post as I replied in my >> previous post which did lose the subject line. >> >> If it doesn't... well I don't know :) >> >> Michel >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 08:49:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AGnjLo011792; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:49:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AGnhOT011778; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:49:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:49:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LyCKrZohXtKuUJu/Yy07m+sVfzhd7kafKPms09PuPdHEbyYzMlZ3vHpzUo6DvQvXbBbEevRhGTmbEhhqRtvQOriliBQr2B2UNMVns+wtc8yCFMcbcHTwae4tLTwdyPyZwLZv16a2hiN4xjY+j0KdAc6/sudKxFYIu4z6pj1H50c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tIJh3tJjz/Q1eWaxycO8W7LrK18dlyEgSkE7/3whVPZFONAeQt4JjrJ5NkXYYuNW5ezO/rx93QIsS0bMDoAMz10SwLhKjlS4vQbm1TPklXC3m7z78yS9aAhuzkYzYFzLEHjXYfIitE37uGrO31rjTBqM5uWxOBCUSPRcp7591P8= Message-ID: <45F2E19D.2030204@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:49:33 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: looking for long wavelength LED's References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73614 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Does anyone have access to a long wavelength LED >= 1300 nm? If so then I would ***very much*** appreciate it if you could perform a simple voltage measurement experiment, or better yet I would be more than happy to purchase your mid-IR LED. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 08:51:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AGovi8012373; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:50:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AGot25012348; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:50:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 08:50:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <103301c76334$445fd990$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:50:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2AGorxX012326 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73615 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Status: O X-Status: I think it may be real, but not indisputably so yet. Indisputability is very difficult to get, which IMHO is a shame after 18 years since the first CF experiment. Hence my suggestion of a "COP cop" lab, which would have other uses than CF of course. Michel (*) In any system, even cold, the fusion rate is never absolute zero. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:42 PM Subject: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the skeptic > Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using Cold Fusion as a > prime example of a debacle hoax. > > For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 09:02:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AH28RU017458; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:02:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AH269I017442; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:02:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:02:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=m0+C511wnx+AU9TNHWn2gnkCZuy8QZs1aVV3CWe7FyQ+DDuexMW8L+mjDmNf5lgX0aiwjgw6ZXNWfo63wyg+eX4C6vnq6D9I37eeNNn+qK7tTjen8uJtm9ifMO6ysCpOXBBt4tHqnEIwmeZWUnybjBjZBAiJvfGx/ExruwqEdYI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KxKcBHR86wFojxTBy+eu1/sic/4GRP+nJcza+7ON4j+rdx+4AoTWiBukzVGOawleZU1Pqx+De8yZHoV3CfbD4rfPsq+JNuRaD0kfKHzrUKXiw2el/LsuyhXkjBw83L1BKTHQlqPnCZVlQKpo9GpmSaFuPFMvzGg2D/WSf9M32F0= Message-ID: <45F2E482.4030404@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:01:54 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <103301c76334$445fd990$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <103301c76334$445fd990$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73616 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think you're correct Michel. Hopefully researchers will *never* lose patience or hope!!! All good things usually take time. Perhaps this is a poor example, but it took ~21 years for Einsteins paper on the Photoelectric effect to result in the official name "Photon." Or ~87 years to birth QM. I'm sure you have better examples to match your POV's. Regards, Paul Lowrance Michel Jullian wrote: > I think it may be real, but not indisputably so yet. Indisputability is very difficult to get, which IMHO is a shame after 18 years since the first CF experiment. Hence my suggestion of a "COP cop" lab, which would have other uses than CF of course. > > Michel > > (*) In any system, even cold, the fusion rate is never absolute zero. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lowrance" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:42 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > >> Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the skeptic >> Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using Cold Fusion as a >> prime example of a debacle hoax. >> >> For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 09:02:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AH2LfQ017603; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:02:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AH2KOZ017588; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:02:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:02:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re: Loop closed? (was Re: High efficiency electrolysis) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:02:07 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <101d01c7632d$cf231710$3800a8c0@zothan> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73617 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> If the Vort messaging system stripped the subject line from >> your original post how could your subsequent post suddenly >> have the subject line placed back in - if you are replying >> using a subsequent post where the subject line no longer >> exists. Or is that not what you're saying. > > No, what I mean is that I made two posts P1 and P2 replying to > one same post P0, so the subject lines of P1 and P2 were strictly > identical, automatically derived from P0's subject line by my > email software. P1 had its subject line stripped, whereas P2 had > its subject line intact. Conclusion: the problem doesn't lie in > the original subject line itself. The bodies (contents, excluding > the subject line) were different, so maybe the problem lies in > the body, or in the length of the body (P2 was shorter). It's the > first time I experienced the problem, this may be because I > usually write shorter posts. > > Michel Or, it was just another random happenstance and the evil SUBJECT LINER TERMINATOR simply decided to ravage post P1 and not P2. There is a simple test you can perform to verify your suspicion. RePost your two previous messages, P1 and P2 again, exactly, word-for-word and see if the same problem reoccurs. I think that will tell us if your suspicions are indeed accurate. As many are fond of saying: Proof is in the repeatability of the experiment! ;-) Just a suggestion. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 09:55:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AHt7Nh014330; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:55:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AHt651014314; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:55:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:55:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:57:38 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6ResMC.A.hfD.5Dv8FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73618 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything he says about any subject. A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for its initiation. Regards, Ed Storms Paul Lowrance wrote: > Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the > skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using > Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. > > For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 10:56:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AIumcn008847; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:56:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AIukNS008829; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:56:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2AIuiEb008811 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73619 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more > real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, > cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by > hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the > responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself > on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything > he says about any subject. > > A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be > published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the > evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for > its initiation. > > Regards, > Ed Storms > > Paul Lowrance wrote: >> Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >> skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >> Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >> >> For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 11:10:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AJAJUF009291; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:10:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AJAGbF009270; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:10:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:10:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:12:48 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3bf6hB.A.yQC.YKw8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73620 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been applied, thanks to the skeptics. Ed Michel Jullian wrote: > Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > >>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>he says about any subject. >> >>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>its initiation. >> >>Regards, >>Ed Storms >> >>Paul Lowrance wrote: >> >>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>> >>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>> >>> >>>Regards, >>>Paul Lowrance >>> >>> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 11:55:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AJtLR2032438; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:55:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AJtKdn032428; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:55:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:55:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dgR6Dc1Jvml3wf8Qd6A8sEOSpSqaUCSyjQEpXFMinBYxw6EJleM09HX7fbNjGs4V6KHrGFaTqgFYpA/KrSlBetcyZcWAX4Wmsiwinvtlid8VsfT911f5zgYPdcBIlm65qh5iZA0LyhsO0jC1mWW7DqfPe/xEVUqd7alVoU3ECHk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UsFZSQE88aRt8W4VJco1w2Wg1/8s8dEnkIvb2cXYPvc7XFHbilIBStTmfg24DMaaHsno6VYU32cqZiGWZZ0U3ZUGTOPLhlC6pmww8JbGDdH0QRQ029ap9o9UurCSq0wKhg1Ac7twmLyQLry9RRNW+GrRd/0AEEjPInWIPDX+7/Y= Message-ID: <45F30D1E.9060205@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:55:10 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Nice QM applet References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9bOpoC.A.o6H.o0w8FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73621 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I came across a really nice QM applet that displays both energy density and electron radial distribution in 3D in addition to allowing 2D slicing. The user can slice the 3-dimensional atomic orbital displays on any X, Y, or Z axis. The below applet also shows radial distribution graph if you click "View" in the menu and select the appropriate item. http://www.falstad.com/qmatom/ The html page only mentions hydrogen, but this applet shows atoms up to n=16, and allows the user to select all QM number such as n, l, and m. Upon starting the applet I would recommend you full size the applet window, then slide the "Image Resolution" to max (right side), then click menu "View" and select "Radial Distribution," then check all the boxes in menu "Option," then click the menu "Samples" and select "Samples = 55 (best)," then on top right text box select "Complex Orbitals (phys.)," then select "Show X Slice," then click and drag the square box around the 3D atom to an appropriate angle, and last you can then move your mouse over the middle line inside the box so that it turns yellow and then slide the yellow line to whatever X slice you want. There's other things you can click on and move around, but since you know all about QM this is probably a waste of time. It seems clear that the atom is not some object composed of rigid little objects, but rather composed of what appears to be standing wave patterns. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 14:05:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2AM5S6S015921; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:05:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2AM5QYv015902; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:05:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:05:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 23:04:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2AM5OXA015885 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73622 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It's a chicken and egg problem, money can only come with demonstrable success, and success once every 6 months is hard to demonstrate obviously. What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the > present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required > conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the > conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that > don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more > likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not > caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by > ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are > having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex > phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a > considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been > applied, thanks to the skeptics. > > Ed > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >> >>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>he says about any subject. >>> >>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>its initiation. >>> >>>Regards, >>>Ed Storms >>> >>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>> >>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>> >>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>> >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>>Paul Lowrance >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 15:14:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2ANEHRT021316; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:14:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ANEEdL021291; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:14:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:14:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:16:47 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <9eqbZC.A.nMF.Gvz8FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73623 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > It's a chicken and egg problem, money can only come with demonstrable success, Many eggs have been laid. The chickens are now growing. Success has now been demonstrated over 200 times and people who study the effect every day have a much better success rate than mine. How much success is required? and success once every 6 months is hard to demonstrate obviously. > > What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject the idea will look like fools. Your choice. Regards, Ed > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > >>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >> >>Ed >> >>Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>> >>>Michel >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>To: >>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>he says about any subject. >>>> >>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>its initiation. >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>>Ed Storms >>>> >>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>> >>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 16:37:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2B0beYd025907; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:37:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2B0bdT2025902; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:37:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:37:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 01:37:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2B0bX0G025879 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73624 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer ... >> What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? > > These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about > superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the > transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of > such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and > thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No > one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased > to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually > succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the > effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the > effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. > The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject > the idea will look like fools. Your choice. > > Regards, > Ed >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >> >>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>> >>>Ed >>> >>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>> >>>>Michel >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>> >>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>its initiation. >>>>> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>Ed Storms >>>>> >>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>> >>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 17:15:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2B1FFi1020108; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:15:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2B1FDix020084; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:15:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:15:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c7637a$b3cee870$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:15:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C76348.68F43B20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73625 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C76348.68F43B20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C76348.68F43B20" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C76348.68F43B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, I cannot find the source, but I recall reading somewhere that = experiments using microwave have produced ozone gas and isotopes of = Oxygen up to O7. Anyone know about such a process ? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C76348.68F43B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
I cannot find the source, but I recall reading somewhere that = experiments=20 using microwave have produced ozone gas and isotopes of Oxygen up to O7. = Anyone=20 know about such a process ?
 
 
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C76348.68F43B20-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C76348.68F43B20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c7637a$b38890a0$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C76348.68F43B20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 17:48:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2B1m5UD031902; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:48:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2B1m3QO031886; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:48:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:48:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <109601c7637e$3452a8d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 02:40:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2B1m1C1031865 Resent-Message-ID: <8Mp7jC.A.GyH.T_18FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73626 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: DOE invests $168 million in solar technology Status: RO X-Status: http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=21596&hed=U.S.+Funds+Shine+%24168M+on+Solar§or=Industries&subsector=Energy ------------- The U.S. Department of Energy on Thursday announced it will invest $168 million in 13 solar technology projects in the next three years as a move to bring down the cost of solar energy. "Solar technology can play a crucial role in moving toward affordable net zero energy homes and businesses, which combine energy efficiency and renewable energy produced on-site," DOE Secretary Samuel W. Bodman said in a statement. The investment gives support to lower-cost solar panels innovations that promise to bring cheaper panels to market, ushering in cheaper access to solar electricity. The U.S. government's goal is to increase the photovoltaic solar power capacity from 240 megawatts to 2,850 megawatts by 2010. DOE estimates that such capacity would reduce the cost of solar electricity to $0.05 to $0.10 per kilowatt-hour. The current level is $0.18 to $0.23--a price that is not competitive with conventional electricity, which usually falls below $0.10 per kilowatt-hour. Companies chosen for funding included Konarka, Solar Power, BP Solar, Miasole, Nanosolar, United Solar Ovonic, Practical Instruments, Amonix, Boeing, Dow Chemical, General Electric, Greenray, Powerlight, and SunPower. DOE's biggest fundings are directed to companies developing thin-film technologies. Thin-film manufacturers BP Solar, Miasole, Nanosolar, and United Solar Ovonic received funding of about $20 millions each. The reason for this was the worldwide shortage of silicon that photovoltaic solar panels are made of. Thin-film companies try to make more panels with less silicon. --------- -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 17:58:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2B1wJcq002466; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:58:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2B1wHvm002450; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:58:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:58:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:58:17 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <682e0367db74.67db74682e03@ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73627 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The criteria of "Indisputability" is excessive. If this what the physics community demands, then it has become a kind of Church in possesion of indisputable truths. I think it is enough to prove it "beyond a shadow of a doubt." Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel Jullian Date: Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:50 am Subject: [Vo]: Re: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > I think it may be real, but not indisputably so yet. > Indisputability is very difficult to get, which IMHO is a shame > after 18 years since the first CF experiment. Hence my suggestion > of a "COP cop" lab, which would have other uses than CF of course. > > Michel > > (*) In any system, even cold, the fusion rate is never absolute zero. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lowrance" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:42 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > > Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where > the skeptic > > Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using > Cold Fusion as a > > prime example of a debacle hoax. > > > > For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? > > > > > > Regards, > > Paul Lowrance > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 18:06:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2B26HA0005246; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:06:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2B26GBs005230; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:06:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:06:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 02:06:15 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.14 (On: webmail.textdrivehosting.com) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002201c7637a$b3cee870$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "Zachary Jones" Bounce-To: "Zachary Jones" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2B26FMD005211 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73628 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.springerlink.com/content/l36272x3106h58p5/ http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1991SvJPP..17.1159S On 3/11/2007, "R.C.Macaulay" wrote: >BlankHowdy Vorts, > >I cannot find the source, but I recall reading somewhere that experiments using microwave have produced ozone gas and isotopes of Oxygen up to O7. Anyone know about such a process ? > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 18:42:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2B2gCXh032239; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:42:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2B2g5la032198; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:42:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:42:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=aS5Uq4CTn9nmOLHHMYN3BMDMD67tc6EnT/ox8HZ3Y/IeLYP36yg6WC4xzJIlLwzCKiwJ4mlH4MnREPkfJZtnhpKhUcMxWY0X51dt51GJJYRLmsjJNScSZk4JHP5z30bC9qncJxtiL0TFeB+nlyjHdxhjxysD6ocT3Tw7nx/Me6s= ; X-YMail-OSG: ipA9C.UVM1n06Yu7ClTKQ0D8ddkV5bkfQkUM1JAXjObq_sYelh25zrMrOPML72Ixi4iZBFgfYoDI92Jv6MZIk9xVShAP7PS7KVZ7cfA5YOgkMaGNon4sJw4.sXozS3.YH9cG9ajm.7WRxGQ- Message-ID: <45F36C7B.3010704@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:42:03 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73629 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Using the 'find similar' feature on the Harvard Site, this one comes up: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1999SPIE.3571..229B&db_key=PHY&data_type=HTML&format=&high=45f369a03b24421 Interesting that there are dozens of these papers, coming out of Russia and former allies... and few from elsewhere. Not that they have anything to do with weather modification, or anything like that... ... not sure exactly what angle, exactly, our former enemies were going for, unless they know something that is not obvious. Creating ozone in the upper atmosphere is generally seen as a good thing, so perhaps one should not be cynical about their ultimate motives. ... or in the spy-vs-spy tradition, maybe the ozone is some kind of countermeasure against out "noble" intentions... HAARP and all ;-) Zachary Jones wrote: > http://www.springerlink.com/content/l36272x3106h58p5/ > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1991SvJPP..17.1159S > On 3/11/2007, "R.C.Macaulay" wrote: >> Howdy Vorts, >> I cannot find the source, but I recall reading somewhere that experiments using microwave have produced ozone gas and isotopes of Oxygen up to O7. Anyone know about such a process ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 19:15:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2B3FAwV023562; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:15:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2B3F9Qq023553; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:15:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 19:15:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=refvMBmwRrWR7+DUFLWWMJTONZFhLxEsoedwDjrL6nfL1q1UdFk5Gs6/ZBvD1bZP; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <25540125.1173582908832.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:15:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c0c429cf0212ef8dc96dc82cfbd92ccff6c5fb2b435a154c5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.25 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73630 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I confess that I pulled the toll of $1 per mile out of a hat. The correct figure should be ~$0.25 per mile. This is based on the average fuel efficiency of U.S. cars (20 mpg) and the cost and damage caused by burning a gallon of gas ($5). The cost including buiding roads, and damage includes environmental destruction, war and other costs not covered by drivers. The cost of accidents is covered by drivers, with insurance. With present day gasoline technology all we have to is charge $5 per gallon tax, which is what they charge in Europe and Japan. It doesn't hurt them and it will not hurt us. Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >Ends up about $800 for me a month, not including picking up my fiancee from >her workplace. I suppose she could quit working at the grocery store and >save that gasoline....maybe high-minded individuals like Jed don't need to >eat? Do they derive energy from cold fusion instead of food? > >I imagine someone will suggest I use the train or the bus. Won't work. No >mass transit on that scale here. You are saying that the rest of us to pay for your lifestyle. I don't mind contributing to a depressed area of the country for a decade or so, but I think that if you cannot maintain your way of life over long periods without massive help from other people, you should move. In this case, you want me to pay for your transportation either directly in cash, or indirectly by suffering from more pollution, global warming and wars for oil. You way of life is not sustainable and it cannot be made economical with today's technology, so you must abandon it. Of course the rest of us should pitch in to help you make the transition, but not to permanently support you. The same goes for the "small, independent farmer" who is forever demanding huge infusions of tax money. I do not think farmers deserve decades of help any more than programmer, hairdressers, or taxi drivers do. Just because farming is an ancient way of life and programming is new, I see no reason why farmers are privileged or why the rest of us should pay them to maintain their lifestyle. In the end, this is a capitalist, free-market country, and we all have to play by capitalist rules. That is as it should be. It is not pure dog-eat-dog capitalism, and we should help people in distress, but "help" should not last for 10 or 20 years. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 10 20:15:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2B4FCgD013461; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:15:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2B4FAua013449; Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:15:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:15:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000401c76393$d3ab9c10$bfd0163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <25540125.1173582908832.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 23:14:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73631 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! >I confess that I pulled the toll of $1 per mile out of a hat. The correct >figure should be ~$0.25 per mile. This is based on the average fuel >efficiency of U.S. cars > (20 mpg) and the cost and damage caused by burning a gallon of gas ($5). > The cost including buiding roads, and damage includes environmental > destruction, war > and other costs not covered by drivers. The cost of > accidents is covered by drivers, with insurance. Then give me my Monte Carlo back and tax me less, with 28mpg average, and even less if and when I drive the efficiency up higher. What do you pay for the roads with then? > > With present day gasoline technology all we have to is charge $5 per > gallon tax, which is what they charge in Europe and Japan. It doesn't hurt > them and it will > not hurt us. Beg to differ here. And in case you didn't notice, this is not Europe nor Japan. This is our country (apparently not yours, you don't seem to like it much), if you like the way things are done overseas so much, please, go there. > You are saying that the rest of us to pay for your lifestyle. The hell I am. I work for a living and pay my taxes, quite a bit of which will pay for the lazy who choose not to work. Can you read? We are all in this together, one way or another. If there are no mechanics, you will not drive, because you will have no one to fix your plastic Prius. Or if you take the bus, what if the bus breaks down? Does it fix itself? If there are no little-guy machinists and contractors, you won't get any services from them. Ditto for all the hundreds of other things you personally need every day to maintain your lifestyle. Strangle us out of existence, and you will begin to feel the heat overnight, personally. > I don't mind contributing to a depressed area of the country for a decade > or so, but I think that if you > cannot maintain your way of life over long periods without massive help > from other people, you should move. To where? Most of us cannot afford to leave...transitioning means time with no income, and the cost to move. If I move X miles, under your system, I also have to pay X mileage tax. And as I said, I have maintained my life so far with NO help from others. In fact, I have helped THEM where possible, with what little I have. Again CAN YOU READ? > In this case, you want me to pay for your > transportation either directly in cash, or indirectly by suffering from > more pollution, global warming and wars for oil. You way of life is not > sustainable and it > cannot be made economical with today's technology, so you must abandon it. > Of course the rest of us should pitch in to help you make the transition, > but not to > permanently support you. I pay for my car, my fuel, upkeep and repairs on my own, you don't. As far as global warming, I don't want to hear it. It is still being debated, and should be. As far as pollution, some of us are actively trying to find ways to reduce it or get rid of it by experimentation. Do you do experiments, or just rock back and forth in your chair and shout orders to us dirty, polluting little people? What are YOU doing to make a difference? Can't be made economical with today's technology....yet it worked 50 years ago. Wow, that logic would really impress Mr. Spock. And as far as pitching in to help, why don't you try and actually make a difference, get your hands dirty working on something, and stop trying to micromanage other people's lives. I don't want your money. I don't want permanent support, nor am I receiving it. If you are implying that I am getting "help" from how "little" I pay to drive, then everyone who drives is getting "help", including the extremely wealthy. How about Pelosi and her jet she has been demanding? Bet that jet doesn't get good mileage. Tsk Tsk on the emissions too. Or Al Gore and his incredible waste of electricity in his giant mansion. *I* am supposed to change my life, when people like these high-minded jerkoffs are contributing FAR more to polluting this earth than my entire family? What the hell is wrong with you people?! > The same goes for the "small, independent farmer" who is forever demanding > huge infusions of tax money. I do not think farmers deserve decades of > help any > more than programmer, hairdressers, or taxi drivers do. Just because > farming is an ancient way of life and programming is new, I see no reason > why farmers are > privileged or why the rest of us should pay them to > maintain their lifestyle. In the end, this is a capitalist, free-market > country, and we all have to play by capitalist > rules. That is as it > should be. It is not pure dog-eat-dog capitalism, and we should help > people in distress, but "help" should not last for 10 or 20 years. Why are you preaching to me about "help" lasting for 20 years? I was the one who complained about multitudes of blacks and other minorities on welfare for no reason other than not wanting to work. I guess we should kick them off. Dog-eat-dog and all that...oh wait....that would be rather racist though, right? There is no reason we cannot make synthetic fuels using energy derived from solar power, as far as I know. This has nothing to do with how the middle and lower class people live their lives, it has to do with the people on top not being willing to get off their asses and do something about it. Again, it is far easier for high-minded individuals to just scream about the problems and come up with blanket "solutions" to the symptoms rather than bite the bullet, lose the laziness, and DO something about it. "Cold fusion" ain't the damned answer either, and it looks like it never will be in the forseeable future. Post something here explaining exactly how to do it and make it generate enough excess heat to boil me a pot of coffee, and we'll talk. Until then, it is barking up the wrong tree, when we already have existing methods to generate intelligent energy (I dislike the term alternative energy...in the end, its all from the sun anyways*, just a question of how long you wait to get it and at what cost). Dog eat dog, eh? Ok. How about a federal ban on any environmental impact studies when we start paving the desert with solar collectors. Ditto for windmill generators. Then we can get something built without some bleeding heart organization worrying about an oddball caterpillar that might wander by. And while we are at it, ban the petrocrats from interfering. Don't tax them to pay for construction, just forbid them to interfere. Here's how it is: God put a very bloody big fusion reactor a convenient 93,000,000 miles away from us. I suggest we use it. *Even nuclear is solar, from a certain point of view; it came from the death-throes of an O or B star out there somewhere. --Kyle, will build solar collectors for food, will carry a .357 in case a greenie tells him the collector is bad for the environment. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 10:47:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BAlIiO029261; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 02:47:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BAlFG2029224; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:47:15 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:47:15 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:47:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2BAlD1H029183 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73632 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Not pressing you for an answer but I don't follow your reasoning Ed. I would think early superconductivity researchers answered "10°K" right away when asked about their transition temperature. If they had been evasive, I doubt further research would have been financed. Or what am I missing? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > ... >>> What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? >> >> These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about >> superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the >> transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of >> such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and >> thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No >> one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased >> to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually >> succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the >> effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the >> effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. >> The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject >> the idea will look like fools. Your choice. >> >> Regards, >> Ed >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Edmund Storms" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>> >>> >>> >>>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>>> >>>>Ed >>>> >>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>>> >>>>>Michel >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>>> >>>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>>its initiation. >>>>>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>Ed Storms >>>>>> >>>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 11:59:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BBx8D0007660; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 03:59:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BBx6FH007617; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:59:06 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:59:06 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10e501c763d4$aa6300a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45F36C7B.3010704@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 12:59:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2BBx3Jl007595 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73633 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ozone O3 is a well known chemical product of air discharges, whether MW induced or otherwise, but isotopes certainly aren't, did the OP really mean isotopes??? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 3:42 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation > Using the 'find similar' feature on the Harvard Site, this one comes up: > > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1999SPIE.3571..229B&db_key=PHY&data_type=HTML&format=&high=45f369a03b24421 > > Interesting that there are dozens of these papers, coming out of Russia > and former allies... and few from elsewhere. Not that they have anything > to do with weather modification, or anything like that... > > ... not sure exactly what angle, exactly, our former enemies were going > for, unless they know something that is not obvious. Creating ozone in > the upper atmosphere is generally seen as a good thing, so perhaps one > should not be cynical about their ultimate motives. > > ... or in the spy-vs-spy tradition, maybe the ozone is some kind of > countermeasure against out "noble" intentions... HAARP and all ;-) > > > > Zachary Jones wrote: >> http://www.springerlink.com/content/l36272x3106h58p5/ >> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1991SvJPP..17.1159S > >> On 3/11/2007, "R.C.Macaulay" wrote: > >>> Howdy Vorts, > >>> I cannot find the source, but I recall reading somewhere that experiments using microwave have produced ozone gas and isotopes of Oxygen up to O7. Anyone know about such a process ? > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 12:51:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BCow3H011806; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 04:50:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BCougW011789; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 12:50:56 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 12:50:56 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=kfWgh4KJ79txsHuRVq9Z2M+6VfwIElldPtmMx17cXiJeJtyV8waIS02MwhQFDMNu; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:50:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c14927a13db59cd995280bc189e955f8a2c53bafa0c3e33ca350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73634 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >Then give me my Monte Carlo back and tax me less, with 28mpg average, and >even less if and when I drive the efficiency up higher. Of course people who drive more efficient cars should pay less! That is my point. People who walk should pay practially nothing. >Beg to differ here. And in case you didn't notice, this is not Europe nor >Japan. We are no less clever or resourceful than they are. I do not think Americans require special coddling. If they can pay the full cost for their energy, we can too. >> You are saying that the rest of us to pay for your lifestyle. > >The hell I am. I work for a living and pay my taxes . . . But not enough to cover the cost of pollution or the war -- which is mainly a war for oil. That is why the nation runs a deficit, and why the pollution problem has not been fixed. >To where? Most of us cannot afford to leave...transitioning means time with >no income, and the cost to move. That's why I said the rest of the country has to help, for a while. If I move X miles, under your system, I >also have to pay X mileage tax. Either YOU pay it, or I pay it. Since you are the one who is moving you should pay it. >I pay for my car, my fuel, upkeep and repairs on my own, you don't. No you do not. That's the problem. Your fuel costs you $2 per gallon and it costs the rest of us $3 extra in hidden costs. You are forcing the rest of us to bail you out. As far >as global warming, I don't want to hear it. It is still being debated, and >should be. No it should not. It is a sure thing. You might as well debate whether cold fusion is real. >As far as pollution, some of us are actively trying to find ways >to reduce it or get rid of it by experimentation. Do you do experiments, or >just rock back and forth in your chair and shout orders to us dirty, >polluting little people? What are YOU doing to make a difference? I am helping people do cold fusion experiments, in many ways. >Can't be made economical with today's technology....yet it worked 50 years >ago. Exactly. Resources are scarcer. The Chinese and Indians now want oil and they can afford to buy it. Technology is ever changing. >How about Pelosi and her jet she has been demanding? You and the media have this story backwards. She wants to ride commercial jets. The government asked her to take a small government jet instead for security reseans. She said 'either provide a larger jet or I will take a commercial flight.' I think the security should butt out an let her fly commercial. There is no significant danger. >Why are you preaching to me about "help" lasting for 20 years? I was the one >who complained about multitudes of blacks and other minorities on welfare >for no reason other than not wanting to work. Why do you not see that YOU too want something for nothing? You want us to put you on permanent welfare and support your oil addiction, and let you live in a part of the country where there is not enough work. I do not see any difference between your demands and the demands of people who do not want to work at all. Both of you cost me. At least the people who do not work are not polluting or forcing us into war in the Middle East. Frankly, I would rather pay you to sit on your butt than to burn up lots of gasoline. >There is no reason we cannot make synthetic fuels using energy derived from >solar power, as far as I know. I think it would be more practical to use the solar power directly, for electricity and heat. To make synthetic fuel nuclear energy might be a better choice. >This has nothing to do with how the middle >and lower class people live their lives, it has to do with the people on top >not being willing to get off their asses and do something about it. Only the top people at U.S. corporations. Toyota is selling hundreds of thousands of Prius automobiles. If everyone drove one, the U.S. would be exporting oil. GM is selling SUVs. Our corporations and consumers are at fault. Some leaders in the U.S., such as the U.S. Toyota managers, and some U.S. consumers -- such as me -- have done a lot to fix these problems. >Actually "Cold fusion" >ain't the damned answer either, and it looks like it never will be in the >forseeable future. I disagree. If it has been developed properly starting in 1989, I am pretty sure that by now it would supply most of energy, or all of our energy. > Post something here explaining exactly how to do it and >make it generate enough excess heat to boil me a pot of coffee . . . I have posted 500 papers explaining exactly how to do it. No one on earth has circulated more information about cold fusion than I. Of course it is not easy, and you cannot reduce it to single formula, but that is true of all other energy systems and complex technology. I cannot post a message here explaining exactly how to make a Pentium processor or a nuclear fission reactor either. >Dog eat dog, eh? Ok. How about a federal ban on any environmental impact >studies when we start paving the desert with solar collectors. There is no need to pave the desert when installing solar collectors! This would be a very bad idea, in fact. You have to leave the open dirt under the collectors to absorb rainwater. In Europe they grow grass under collectors, and graze sheep. >Ditto for >windmill generators. You mean wind turbine generators. They take up practically no space on the ground. A megawatt generator takes up about as much space as a couple of phone booths. Wind energy has the smallest land-use "footprint" of any energy source, including nuclear when you account for the space taken up by uranium mining and processing. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 14:42:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BEgAdc007562; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 06:42:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BEg208007534; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:42:02 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:42:02 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c763eb$6b6257e0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <002201c7637a$b3cee870$c905a8c0@xptower> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:41:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C763C1.823FDD90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73635 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C763C1.823FDD90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C763C1.823FDD90" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C763C1.823FDD90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThanks Vorts, For the response. My interest in ozone gas is for = disinfection of water. The ozone in atmosphere is another study. Isotopes of O make for some interesting study also. Hmmm O6 for = example.. such a strange beast to be lurking in the shadows. Richard ----- Original Message -----=20 From: R.C.Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:15 PM Subject: [Vo]: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Howdy Vorts, I cannot find the source, but I recall reading somewhere that = experiments using microwave have produced ozone gas and isotopes of = Oxygen up to O7. Anyone know about such a process ? Richard -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/716 - Release Date: = 3/9/2007 6:53 PM ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C763C1.823FDD90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Thanks Vorts, For the response. My interest in = ozone gas=20 is for disinfection of water. The ozone in atmosphere is another=20 study.
Isotopes of O make for some interesting study = also.=20 Hmmm  O6 for example.. such a strange beast to be lurking in the=20 shadows.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 R.C.Macaulay=20
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 = 8:15=20 PM
Subject: [Vo]: Ozone and = isotopes of O by=20 microwave exitation

Howdy Vorts,
 
I cannot find the source, but I recall reading somewhere that = experiments=20 using microwave have produced ozone gas and isotopes of Oxygen up to = O7.=20 Anyone know about such a process ?
 
 
 
Richard

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/716 - Release = Date:=20 3/9/2007 6:53 PM
------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C763C1.823FDD90-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C763C1.823FDD90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c763eb$6b0829f0$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C763C1.823FDD90-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 14:56:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BEuhDw011956; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 06:56:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BEugvO011941; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:56:42 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:56:41 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <113201c763ed$7915a890$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <002201c7637a$b3cee870$c905a8c0@xptower> <001001c763eb$6b6257e0$c905a8c0@xptower> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:56:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2BEueHl011923 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73636 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Status: RO X-Status: Are you into the design of an ozonizer Richard? O6 is not an oxygen isotope BTW, isotopes of oxygen are 12-O to 28-O (I put in the hyphen so they don't look like 120 and 280): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_oxygen I imagine O6 must be an unstable molecule of oxygen, just like ozone O3. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 3:41 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation BlankThanks Vorts, For the response. My interest in ozone gas is for disinfection of water. The ozone in atmosphere is another study. Isotopes of O make for some interesting study also. Hmmm O6 for example.. such a strange beast to be lurking in the shadows. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: R.C.Macaulay To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:15 PM Subject: [Vo]: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Howdy Vorts, I cannot find the source, but I recall reading somewhere that experiments using microwave have produced ozone gas and isotopes of Oxygen up to O7. Anyone know about such a process ? Richard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/716 - Release Date: 3/9/2007 6:53 PM From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 15:54:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BFshfh032579; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 07:54:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BFsed4032550; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:54:40 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:54:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:57:13 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73637 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel, no one is being evasive. The data have been made public in many publications. I identify over 1000 in my book. People who are truly interested in the subject can read my reviews and get the answers to most of their questions. Many people have done this and a few who are wealthy enough are putting money into the research. The problem of acceptance involves people who will not read the literature or are not able to understand the information. Of course, a few people, such as Shermer do not want the effect to be real because the myth is too useful to their skeptical view of science. In any case, if you want answers to your questions, read my reviews or buy my book. Regards, Ed Michel Jullian wrote: > Not pressing you for an answer but I don't follow your reasoning Ed. I would think early superconductivity researchers answered "10°K" right away when asked about their transition temperature. If they had been evasive, I doubt further research would have been financed. Or what am I missing? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > >>CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? >> >>Michel >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Edmund Storms" >>To: >>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >>... >> >>>>What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? >>> >>>These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about >>>superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the >>>transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of >>>such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and >>>thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No >>>one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased >>>to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually >>>succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the >>>effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the >>>effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. >>> The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject >>>the idea will look like fools. Your choice. >>> >>>Regards, >>>Ed >>> >>>>Michel >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>>>> >>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>>>> >>>>>>Michel >>>>>> >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>To: >>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>>>its initiation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>Ed Storms >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 16:11:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BGBNCM000552; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:11:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BGBLEG000537; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:11:21 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:11:21 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:11:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2BGBJpZ000517 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73638 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: No, no, I was asking specifically about your last overunity COP, which you got personally 6 months ago. I know about your reviews, they are available on lenr.org. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > Michel, no one is being evasive. The data have been made public in many > publications. I identify over 1000 in my book. People who are truly > interested in the subject can read my reviews and get the answers to > most of their questions. Many people have done this and a few who are > wealthy enough are putting money into the research. The problem of > acceptance involves people who will not read the literature or are not > able to understand the information. Of course, a few people, such as > Shermer do not want the effect to be real because the myth is too useful > to their skeptical view of science. In any case, if you want answers to > your questions, read my reviews or buy my book. > > Regards, > Ed > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Not pressing you for an answer but I don't follow your reasoning Ed. I would think early superconductivity researchers answered "10°K" right away when asked about their transition temperature. If they had been evasive, I doubt further research would have been financed. Or what am I missing? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michel Jullian" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:37 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >> >>>CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? >>> >>>Michel >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>To: >>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>> >>> >>>... >>> >>>>>What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? >>>> >>>>These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about >>>>superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the >>>>transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of >>>>such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and >>>>thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No >>>>one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased >>>>to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually >>>>succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the >>>>effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the >>>>effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. >>>> The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject >>>>the idea will look like fools. Your choice. >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>>Ed >>>> >>>>>Michel >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>>>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>>>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>>>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>>>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>>>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>>>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>>>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>>>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>>>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>>>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>>>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>>>>> >>>>>>Ed >>>>>> >>>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>> >>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>>>>its initiation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>Ed Storms >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 17:17:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BHGgU6001967; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:16:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BHGang001947; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:16:36 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:16:36 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:16:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73639 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! > But not enough to cover the cost of pollution or the war -- which is > mainly a war for oil. That is why the nation runs a deficit, and why the > pollution problem has > not been fixed. I seriously doubt that the "hidden costs" of your use of electricity is completely covered by what you pay. Want to pay more? Say, $500-600 per month more? Much electricity is derived from oil, and almost all of it is from fossil fuels. You get no free ride either, buddy. But again, of course it is different when it is YOU. > Either YOU pay it, or I pay it. Since you are the one who is moving you > should pay it. If I have to pay for something, then you have no say over what I do. If you or anyone else attempts to have a say, it better not be within striking range of myself, or there will be a serious problem. >>I pay for my car, my fuel, upkeep and repairs on my own, you don't. > > No you do not. That's the problem. Your fuel costs you $2 per gallon and > it costs the rest of us $3 extra in hidden costs. You are forcing the rest > of us to bail you out. Buses and trains use fossil fuels as well. As I said above, so does most electricity in this nation, and the world in fact...particularly the hell than is China...with their coal plants they must be accruing a SERIOUS "hidden cost"... maybe we should destroy that nation entirely for the good of the planet? Logic such as yours can be dragged out to ridiculous extremes. Again, you want to pay a few hundred extra per month for electricity? No? Then screw off attempting to control our lives. > > As far >>as global warming, I don't want to hear it. It is still being debated, and >>should be. > > No it should not. It is a sure thing. You might as well debate whether > cold fusion is real. Tell that to Freeman Dyson, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, etc. They question what is going on. I suppose you think they are all idiots. People like Park feel the same way about cold fusion researchers. There is no black and white here, we need far more studies and less talk, and to not try and destroy our civilization in the process...which is what your plan will do. You really don't get it do you? If you put that kind of tax on travel, you will DESTROY the US economy overnight. People will starve, riot, the cities will burn. People are already getting tired of the crap they have to put up with from the lazy on the one hand, and the high-minded on the other hand. They will not keep putting up with more forever. Your tax will also affect heavy trucking across state lines, so the price of food for you to eat will skyrocket as well. Do you really understand that you can't just play around with values and settings in the real world economy like that? It is not self-correcting forever. Prod it too much and it will crash.... ...much like the climate will crash if I crank my Buick up later today....heh heh heh. > I am helping people do cold fusion experiments, in many ways. Do tell. > Exactly. Resources are scarcer. The Chinese and Indians now want oil and > they can afford to buy it. Technology is ever changing. And of course, they can burn it without having to pay the "hidden costs" the rest of us have to pay for....Kyoto exemption being but one weasel-out they get. Anyone with half a brain can see that carbon-credit trading is political and profit driven. It has little or nothing to do with actually changing things. > You and the media have this story backwards. She wants to ride commercial > jets. The government asked her to take a small government jet instead for > security >reseans. She said 'either provide a larger jet or I will take a > commercial flight.' I think the security should butt out an let her fly > commercial. There is no significant >danger. Now I did not know that. I would have expected the media to have defended her, as one of their own. Probably the truth didn't make a very interesting story, however. Shame on me for listening to the mass media. > Why do you not see that YOU too want something for nothing? So do you, we are all interconnected. >You want us to put you on permanent welfare and support your oil addiction, >and let you live in a part of the country where there is not enough work. I >do not see >any difference between your demands and the demands of people >who do not want to work at all. Both of you cost me. At least the people >who do not work are >not polluting or forcing us into war in the Middle >East. Frankly, I would rather pay you to sit on your butt than to burn up >lots of gasoline. You see no difference between people who provide a service to the people around them, by working and making a product for the consumer to "consume" (sometimes literally) and people who say "screw it, I'm gonna sit on my ass and do nothing"? You are seriously out of your mind. I would also imagine that people who don't work, and depend on handouts are the same kind of people who will vote for the kind of people you want in office, to be guaranteed their handouts. Further, if you pay more people to sit and do nothing that consumes energy or fuel, you by necessity force those who *do* work to pay more for them to sit around, and maybe get a second job to pay the higher taxes. That probably entails driving more....uh oh, we are back to burning more stuff up, and yet we have less production put into the US economy. > I think it would be more practical to use the solar power directly, for > electricity and heat. To make synthetic fuel nuclear energy might be a > better choice. Who pays the hidden costs of extracting that nuclear fuel, and cleaning up the radioactive crap belched out by these facilities? None of them are clean, they leak radioactive water into the environment all the time. > Only the top people at U.S. corporations. Toyota is selling hundreds of > thousands of Prius automobiles. If everyone drove one, the U.S. would be > exporting oil. > GM is selling SUVs. Our corporations and consumers are at > fault. Some leaders in the U.S., such as the U.S. Toyota managers, and > some U.S. consumers -- > such as me -- have done a lot to fix these problems. You bought a Prius...you've done so much. I should really kiss your ass for all you have done for us. Most people cannot afford those damned things, and people with a few kids and groceries to get need something else, say a minivan. I've worked on these things a few times, they are a nightmare to repair, and a double nightmare to the customer. But if it floats your boat, go ahead and pay for it. Unlike you, I am not going to tell you what to drive. >>Actually "Cold fusion" >>ain't the damned answer either, and it looks like it never will be in the >>forseeable future. > > I disagree. If it has been developed properly starting in 1989, I am > pretty sure that by now it would supply most of energy, or all of our > energy. Then why isn't it being demonstrated absolutely, conclusively? >>Dog eat dog, eh? Ok. How about a federal ban on any environmental impact >>studies when we start paving the desert with solar collectors. > > There is no need to pave the desert when installing solar collectors! This > would be a very bad idea, in fact. You have to leave the open dirt under > the collectors to absorb rainwater. In Europe they grow grass under > collectors, and graze sheep. I wasn't being literal. > >>Ditto for >>windmill generators. > > You mean wind turbine generators. They take up practically no space on the > ground. A megawatt generator takes up about as much space as a couple of > phone booths. Wind energy has the smallest land-use "footprint" of any > energy source, including nuclear when you account for the space taken up > by uranium mining and > -processing. I have absolutely NO objection to wind generators. As a matter of fact, I think they look rather impressive. I was referring to the envirowhackos here in NY that demand no wind generators be built (the area they were going to be put was in East Aurora, I think) because they would chop up a bird here and there. These people made a huge deal about the "environmental impact" of putting wind generators in. The point is, there are too many people standing in the way to try to satisfy in order to get anything accomplished. There comes a time when we must tell these people to screw off, and build the thing, impact or not. In any case, you and I will never agree, and probably can never coexist peacefully. I am glad you are not in office or in a position to implement your insane schemes. Should you (or anyone with these similar ideas) try to actively do this, I will fight you to no end. Many will support me, even from "your side" once they begin to feel the pain. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 18:14:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BIDpph015486; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 10:13:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BIDmvh015459; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:13:48 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:13:48 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:13:46 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.14 (On: webmail.textdrivehosting.com) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001001c763eb$6b6257e0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "Zachary Jones" Bounce-To: "Zachary Jones" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2BIDkrN015417 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73640 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Both studies sent deal with ozone production in a controlled air space, then extrapolate it to the upper atmosphere. Many commercial ozone producers for water purification feed the produced gased through the water in a way that encourages mixing. Would you be unveiling a master plan to mention what you need that a commercial ozone unit won't provide? Zak From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 19:42:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BJfxZp011525; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 11:41:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BJfvBb011504; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:41:57 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:41:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:44:30 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73641 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in excess of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement during such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a calorimeter with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed to maximize the efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio has no meaning. Ed Michel Jullian wrote: > No, no, I was asking specifically about your last overunity COP, which you got personally 6 months ago. I know about your reviews, they are available on lenr.org. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 4:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > >>Michel, no one is being evasive. The data have been made public in many >>publications. I identify over 1000 in my book. People who are truly >>interested in the subject can read my reviews and get the answers to >>most of their questions. Many people have done this and a few who are >>wealthy enough are putting money into the research. The problem of >>acceptance involves people who will not read the literature or are not >>able to understand the information. Of course, a few people, such as >>Shermer do not want the effect to be real because the myth is too useful >>to their skeptical view of science. In any case, if you want answers to >>your questions, read my reviews or buy my book. >> >>Regards, >>Ed >> >>Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>>Not pressing you for an answer but I don't follow your reasoning Ed. I would think early superconductivity researchers answered "10°K" right away when asked about their transition temperature. If they had been evasive, I doubt further research would have been financed. Or what am I missing? >>> >>>Michel >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Michel Jullian" >>>To: >>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:37 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? >>>> >>>>Michel >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>> >>>> >>>>... >>>> >>>> >>>>>>What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? >>>>> >>>>>These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about >>>>>superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the >>>>>transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of >>>>>such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and >>>>>thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No >>>>>one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased >>>>>to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually >>>>>succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the >>>>>effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the >>>>>effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. >>>>>The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject >>>>>the idea will look like fools. Your choice. >>>>> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Michel >>>>>> >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>To: >>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>>>>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>>>>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>>>>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>>>>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>>>>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>>>>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>>>>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>>>>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>>>>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>>>>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>>>>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>>>>>its initiation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>Ed Storms >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 20:12:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BKC5sa022682; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 12:12:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BKC3ud022667; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:12:03 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:12:03 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <119101c76419$871f1670$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:12:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2BKC1Hb022631 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73642 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Ed, to get a better picture I would have liked to know at least an order of magnitude of the input (or output) power too, I mean is it closer to 100W or to 1kW? Also, among your published CF experiments on LENR.org, which one in your opinion presents the best evidence of excess heat? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in excess > of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement during > such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a calorimeter > with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed to maximize the > efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio has no meaning. > > Ed > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> No, no, I was asking specifically about your last overunity COP, which you got personally 6 months ago. I know about your reviews, they are available on lenr.org. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 4:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >> >>>Michel, no one is being evasive. The data have been made public in many >>>publications. I identify over 1000 in my book. People who are truly >>>interested in the subject can read my reviews and get the answers to >>>most of their questions. Many people have done this and a few who are >>>wealthy enough are putting money into the research. The problem of >>>acceptance involves people who will not read the literature or are not >>>able to understand the information. Of course, a few people, such as >>>Shermer do not want the effect to be real because the myth is too useful >>>to their skeptical view of science. In any case, if you want answers to >>>your questions, read my reviews or buy my book. >>> >>>Regards, >>>Ed >>> >>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Not pressing you for an answer but I don't follow your reasoning Ed. I would think early superconductivity researchers answered "10°K" right away when asked about their transition temperature. If they had been evasive, I doubt further research would have been financed. Or what am I missing? >>>> >>>>Michel >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Michel Jullian" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:37 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? >>>>> >>>>>Michel >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? >>>>>> >>>>>>These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about >>>>>>superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the >>>>>>transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of >>>>>>such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and >>>>>>thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No >>>>>>one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased >>>>>>to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually >>>>>>succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the >>>>>>effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the >>>>>>effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. >>>>>>The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject >>>>>>the idea will look like fools. Your choice. >>>>>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>Ed >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>> >>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>>>>>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>>>>>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>>>>>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>>>>>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>>>>>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>>>>>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>>>>>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>>>>>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>>>>>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>>>>>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>>>>>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>>>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>>>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>>>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>>>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>>>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>>>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>>>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>>>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>>>>>>its initiation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>Ed Storms >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 11 22:42:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2BMggE4025624; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:42:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2BMgd1v025575; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:42:39 GMT Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:42:39 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F48678.5090701@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:45:12 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <119101c76419$871f1670$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <119101c76419$871f1670$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73643 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The input in my case was about 0.5 watt with 2.5 watts excess. The ratio looks good in this one case, but it means nothing. The best and most complete heat measurements have been published by McKubre et al. However, similar results have been experienced in at least 157 independent studies. Ed Michel Jullian wrote: > Thanks Ed, to get a better picture I would have liked to know at least an order of magnitude of the input (or output) power too, I mean is it closer to 100W or to 1kW? > > Also, among your published CF experiments on LENR.org, which one in your opinion presents the best evidence of excess heat? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > >>Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in excess >>of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement during >>such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a calorimeter >>with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed to maximize the >>efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio has no meaning. >> >>Ed >> >>Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>>No, no, I was asking specifically about your last overunity COP, which you got personally 6 months ago. I know about your reviews, they are available on lenr.org. >>> >>>Michel >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>To: >>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 4:57 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Michel, no one is being evasive. The data have been made public in many >>>>publications. I identify over 1000 in my book. People who are truly >>>>interested in the subject can read my reviews and get the answers to >>>>most of their questions. Many people have done this and a few who are >>>>wealthy enough are putting money into the research. The problem of >>>>acceptance involves people who will not read the literature or are not >>>>able to understand the information. Of course, a few people, such as >>>>Shermer do not want the effect to be real because the myth is too useful >>>>to their skeptical view of science. In any case, if you want answers to >>>>your questions, read my reviews or buy my book. >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>>Ed >>>> >>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Not pressing you for an answer but I don't follow your reasoning Ed. I would think early superconductivity researchers answered "10°K" right away when asked about their transition temperature. If they had been evasive, I doubt further research would have been financed. Or what am I missing? >>>>> >>>>>Michel >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Michel Jullian" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:37 AM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? >>>>>> >>>>>>Michel >>>>>> >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>To: >>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about >>>>>>>superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the >>>>>>>transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of >>>>>>>such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and >>>>>>>thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No >>>>>>>one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased >>>>>>>to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually >>>>>>>succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the >>>>>>>effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the >>>>>>>effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. >>>>>>>The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject >>>>>>>the idea will look like fools. Your choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>>>>>>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>>>>>>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>>>>>>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>>>>>>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>>>>>>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>>>>>>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>>>>>>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>>>>>>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>>>>>>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>>>>>>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>>>>>>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>>>>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>>>>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>>>>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>>>>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>>>>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>>>>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>>>>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>>>>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>>>>>>>its initiation. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>Ed Storms >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>>>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>>>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 01:26:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2C1Q1Xc002145; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:26:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2C1PxfK002124; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:25:59 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:25:59 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002f01c76445$60c4f4f0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:25:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C7641B.77A89520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73644 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C7641B.77A89520 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002C_01C7641B.77A89520" ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C7641B.77A89520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Michael wrote.. >Are you into the design of an ozonizer Richard? Zachary wrote.. >Would you be unveiling a master plan to mention what you need that a commercial ozone unit won't provide? We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems in = the 1000PPD and above range. The problems, the maintenance and the = trouble mixing ozone beg for better technology. It seems that microwave = may have some application considering the huge transformer banks = required to boost voltage for the present technology, plus the problems = with drying the air or the dangers of using pure oxy. Ozone gas is so = stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are = extremely short lived and it is deadly. Takes the finger nail polish off = my nails Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a = "grease" to slide the O3 into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know = it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. But if it is.. and it = can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the = point.. it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 = catches on .. by using a form of velocity shear upwards to 150f/s = periphical velocity of a parabolic segment shaped "knife". We have been = successful using this method for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't = want to play fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in = the actual water process stream and have the mixing as a function of the = O3 generating process. We have had our Gasmastrrr units returned for = service that have the UHMW rotating member shot with electro-chem = pitting that is a form of SL cavitation. Ultra high molecular weight = polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C7641B.77A89520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Michael wrote..
 
>Are you into the design of an ozonizer Richard?

Zachary=20 wrote..

>Would you be unveiling a master plan to mention what you need = that=20 a
commercial ozone unit won't provide?

We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems = in the=20 1000PPD and above range. The problems, the maintenance and = the trouble=20 mixing ozone beg for better technology.  It seems that microwave = may have=20 some application considering the huge transformer banks required to = boost=20 voltage for the present technology, plus the problems with drying the = air or the=20 dangers of using pure oxy. Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists = mixing with=20 water, the residual properties are extremely short lived and it is = deadly. Takes=20 the finger nail polish off my nails <grin>

Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a = "grease" to slide the O3  into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I = know it=20 can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. But if it is.. and it can = be=20 "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the = point.. it may=20 be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 catches = on .. by=20 using a form of velocity shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of = a=20 parabolic segment shaped "knife". We have been successful using this = method for=20 oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play fair. Microwave may = be the=20 trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and = have the=20 mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had our = Gasmastrrr=20 units returned for service that have the UHMW rotating member shot with=20 electro-chem pitting that is a form of  SL cavitation. Ultra high = molecular=20 weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C7641B.77A89520-- ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C7641B.77A89520 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002a01c76445$607a0940$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C7641B.77A89520-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 06:01:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2C61Z7b006927; Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:01:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2C61WlR006917; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 06:01:32 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 06:01:32 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <11cf01c7646b$e215db70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <119101c76419$871f1670$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F48678.5090701@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:01:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2C61UYp006901 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73645 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > The input in my case was about 0.5 watt with 2.5 watts excess. The ratio > looks good in this one case, but it means nothing. 0.5W electrical in, 0.5W+2.5W=3W heat out? So this would be a COP of 6, why do you think it means nothing? > The best and most complete heat measurements have been published by > McKubre et al. However, similar results have been experienced in at > least 157 independent studies. No, I was asking about a published excess heat experiment of yours, sorry if I was unclear. Michel > > Ed > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Thanks Ed, to get a better picture I would have liked to know at least an order of magnitude of the input (or output) power too, I mean is it closer to 100W or to 1kW? >> >> Also, among your published CF experiments on LENR.org, which one in your opinion presents the best evidence of excess heat? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:44 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >> >>>Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in excess >>>of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement during >>>such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a calorimeter >>>with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed to maximize the >>>efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio has no meaning. >>> >>>Ed >>> >>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>> >>>>No, no, I was asking specifically about your last overunity COP, which you got personally 6 months ago. I know about your reviews, they are available on lenr.org. >>>> >>>>Michel >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 4:57 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Michel, no one is being evasive. The data have been made public in many >>>>>publications. I identify over 1000 in my book. People who are truly >>>>>interested in the subject can read my reviews and get the answers to >>>>>most of their questions. Many people have done this and a few who are >>>>>wealthy enough are putting money into the research. The problem of >>>>>acceptance involves people who will not read the literature or are not >>>>>able to understand the information. Of course, a few people, such as >>>>>Shermer do not want the effect to be real because the myth is too useful >>>>>to their skeptical view of science. In any case, if you want answers to >>>>>your questions, read my reviews or buy my book. >>>>> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Not pressing you for an answer but I don't follow your reasoning Ed. I would think early superconductivity researchers answered "10°K" right away when asked about their transition temperature. If they had been evasive, I doubt further research would have been financed. Or what am I missing? >>>>>> >>>>>>Michel >>>>>> >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>From: "Michel Jullian" >>>>>>To: >>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:37 AM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>> >>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about >>>>>>>>superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the >>>>>>>>transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of >>>>>>>>such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and >>>>>>>>thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No >>>>>>>>one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased >>>>>>>>to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually >>>>>>>>succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the >>>>>>>>effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the >>>>>>>>effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. >>>>>>>>The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject >>>>>>>>the idea will look like fools. Your choice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>>>>>>>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>>>>>>>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>>>>>>>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>>>>>>>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>>>>>>>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>>>>>>>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>>>>>>>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>>>>>>>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>>>>>>>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>>>>>>>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>>>>>>>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>>>>>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>>>>>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>>>>>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>>>>>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>>>>>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>>>>>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>>>>>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>>>>>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>>>>>>>>its initiation. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>Ed Storms >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>>>>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 08:20:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2C8KbvM023484; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:20:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2C8KZaA023469; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:20:35 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:20:35 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <11e901c7647f$4ecc6230$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <002f01c76445$60c4f4f0$c905a8c0@xptower> Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:20:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2C8KXXN023453 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73646 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems in the 1000PPD and above range. What's a PPD? > Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are > extremely short lived and it is deadly. Not deadly (I read somewhere that no casualty has ever been attributed to ozone), but it's very painful if you inhale too much of it, very much like inhaling bleach, no wonder it has a similar effect on microorganisms. How is the ozone laden air pressurized in the industrial units you're using, air pump upstream of the ozone generation I imagine? And what's the operating principle of the O3 generator itself, is it the AC operated glass tube type? > Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a "grease" to slide the O3 > into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. > But if it is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the point.. > it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 catches on .. by using a form of velocity > shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of a parabolic segment shaped "knife". I doubt this makes the slightest sense to anyone except perhaps yourself, but hey this is Vortex :) > We have been successful using this method for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play > fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and have > the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had our Gasmastrrr units returned for > service that have the UHMW rotating member What's this, your tank-bottom ozonized air bubbler? > shot with electro-chem pitting Chem pitting more likely. I guess you mean electro-chem like pitting? > that is a form of SL cavitation. What's this ? > Ultra high molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that. Very few materials are ozone resistant Richard. Have you checked the ozone resistance of this particular PE? Also some materials catalyze ozone destruction (reversal to O2), such materials in your ozonized air circuit would result in not much ozone reaching the water you want to treat. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:25 AM Subject: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Blank Michael wrote.. >Are you into the design of an ozonizer Richard? Zachary wrote.. >Would you be unveiling a master plan to mention what you need that a commercial ozone unit won't provide? We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems in the 1000PPD and above range. The problems, the maintenance and the trouble mixing ozone beg for better technology. It seems that microwave may have some application considering the huge transformer banks required to boost voltage for the present technology, plus the problems with drying the air or the dangers of using pure oxy. Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are extremely short lived and it is deadly. Takes the finger nail polish off my nails Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a "grease" to slide the O3 into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. But if it is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the point.. it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 catches on .. by using a form of velocity shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of a parabolic segment shaped "knife". We have been successful using this method for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and have the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had our Gasmastrrr units returned for service that have the UHMW rotating member shot with electro-chem pitting that is a form of SL cavitation. Ultra high molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 14:39:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CEdGSu014062; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 06:39:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CEdDlH014036; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:39:13 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:39:13 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c764b4$302f3700$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <002f01c76445$60c4f4f0$c905a8c0@xptower> <11e901c7647f$4ecc6230$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:39:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7648A.471BFEF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <6PgxiC.A.QbD.QYW9FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73647 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7648A.471BFEF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:20 AM Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation >> We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems = in the 1000PPD and above range. >=20 > What's a PPD? =20 Ozone gas is measured in pounds per day .. PPD >=20 >> Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the = residual properties are >> extremely short lived and it is deadly. >=20 > Not deadly (I read somewhere that no casualty has ever been attributed = to ozone), but it's very painful if you inhale too much of it, very much = like inhaling bleach, no wonder it has a similar effect on = microorganisms. Very deadly.. a extreme oxidant. >=20 > How is the ozone laden air pressurized in the industrial units you're = using, air pump upstream of the ozone generation I imagine? And what's = the operating principle of the O3 generator itself, is it the AC = operated glass tube type? The incoming air is compressed, chilled and dried. The air enters the = electric arc chambers 8" diameter pipe runs( depending on type) and = mixed into the main process water . The air handling systems can be = pressured or vacuum. >=20 >> Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a = "grease" to slide the O3 >> into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know it can't be done = because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. >> But if it is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short = life is around to argue the point.. >> it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 catches on = .. by using a form of velocity >> shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of a parabolic segment = shaped "knife". >=20 > I doubt this makes the slightest sense to anyone except perhaps = yourself, but hey this is Vortex :) > Hey ! You're not in Kindergarten.. Vortex is for people with some = elastic in their minds.=20 >> We have been successful using this method for oxidation systems but = O3 alone doesn't want to play >> fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the = actual water process stream and have >> the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had = our Gasmastrrr units returned for >> service that have the UHMW rotating member >=20 > What's this, your tank-bottom ozonized air bubbler? See .. www.gasmastrrr.com The gas is discharged into large mixing = tanks filled with water. The off-gas ozone that fails to mix is either = recycled or is destroyed so Michel doesn't learn the hard way that the = stuff can kill ya. >=20 >> shot with electro-chem pitting >=20 > Chem pitting more likely. I guess you mean electro-chem like pitting? Electro-chem pitting description covers a range.. strange to see = the results.. if you ever saw the results of propeller or pump impeller = cavitation you would understand. >=20 >> that is a form of SL cavitation. >=20 > What's this ? Here goes.... sonolumeniscense.. long for SL..=20 >=20 >> Ultra high molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know = that. >=20 > Very few materials are ozone resistant Richard. Have you checked the = ozone resistance of this particular PE? Re-check you data.. excellent resistance to O3 at below 120 = degrees.. maybe some swelling at 140 degrees. > Also some materials catalyze ozone destruction (reversal to O2), such = materials in your ozonized air circuit would result in not much ozone = reaching the water you want to treat. >=20 > Michel >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "R.C.Macaulay" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:25 AM > Subject: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation >=20 >=20 > Blank > Michael wrote.. >=20 >>Are you into the design of an ozonizer Richard? >=20 > Zachary wrote.. >>Would you be unveiling a master plan to mention what you need that a > commercial ozone unit won't provide? >=20 >=20 > We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems in = the 1000PPD and above range. The problems, the maintenance and the = trouble mixing ozone beg for better technology. It seems that microwave = may have some application considering the huge transformer banks = required to boost voltage for the present technology, plus the problems = with drying the air or the dangers of using pure oxy. Ozone gas is so = stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are = extremely short lived and it is deadly. Takes the finger nail polish off = my nails >=20 > Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a = "grease" to slide the O3 into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know = it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. But if it is.. and it = can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the = point.. it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 = catches on .. by using a form of velocity shear upwards to 150f/s = periphical velocity of a parabolic segment shaped "knife". We have been = successful using this method for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't = want to play fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in = the actual water process stream and have the mixing as a function of the = O3 generating process. We have had our Gasmastrrr units returned for = service that have the UHMW rotating member shot with electro-chem = pitting that is a form of SL cavitation. Ultra high molecular weight = polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that. >=20 > Richard >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.9/719 - Release Date: = 3/12/2007 8:41 AM >=20 > ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7648A.471BFEF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:20 = AM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and = isotopes of O by=20 microwave exitation

>> We have some experience in = industrial=20 size ozone generating systems in the 1000PPD and above range.
> =
>=20 What's a PPD?  
  Ozone gas is measured in = pounds per day ..=20 PPD
>
>> Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists mixing = with=20 water, the residual properties are
>> extremely short lived and = it is=20 deadly.
>
> Not deadly (I read somewhere that no casualty = has ever=20 been attributed to ozone), but it's very painful if you inhale too much = of it,=20 very much like inhaling bleach, no wonder it has a similar effect on=20 microorganisms.
 
    Very deadly.. a = extreme=20 oxidant.
>
> How is the ozone laden air pressurized in the=20 industrial units you're using, air pump upstream of the ozone generation = I=20 imagine? And what's the operating principle of the O3 generator itself, = is it=20 the AC operated glass tube type?
 
The incoming air is compressed, = chilled and=20 dried. The air enters the electric arc chambers 8" diameter pipe runs( = depending=20 on type) and mixed into the main process water . The air handling = systems can be=20 pressured or vacuum.

>
>> Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is = an idea=20 for using O6 as a "grease" to slide the O3
>> into the water = molecule..=20 I know, Yes , I know it can't be done because O6 may not be O6..=20 hmmm.
>> But if it is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's = extremely=20 short life is around to argue the point..
>> it may be possible = to "=20 fold" the two into water before O6 catches on .. by using a form of=20 velocity
>> shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of a = parabolic=20 segment shaped "knife".
>
> I doubt this makes the = slightest sense=20 to anyone except perhaps yourself, but hey this is Vortex = :)
>
 
    Hey ! You're not=20 in Kindergarten.. Vortex is for people with some elastic in = their=20 minds. 

>> We have been successful using this method for = oxidation=20 systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play
>> fair. Microwave = may be the=20 trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and=20 have
>> the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. = We have=20 had our Gasmastrrr units returned for
>> service that have the = UHMW=20 rotating member
>
> What's this, your tank-bottom ozonized = air=20 bubbler?
 
  See .. www.gasmastrrr.com  &nbs= p; The=20 gas is discharged into large mixing tanks filled with water. The off-gas = ozone=20 that fails to mix is either recycled or is destroyed so Michel doesn't = learn the=20 hard way that the stuff can kill ya.

>
>> shot with electro-chem pitting
> =
> Chem=20 pitting more likely. I guess you mean electro-chem like pitting?
 
     Electro-chem pitting description covers a = range..=20 strange to see the results.. if you ever saw the results of propeller or = pump=20 impeller cavitation you would understand.
>
>> that is a = form=20 of  SL cavitation.
>
> What's this ?
   Here goes.... sonolumeniscense.. long for SL.. =
>=20
>> Ultra high molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. = we all=20 know that.
>
> Very few materials are ozone resistant = Richard. Have=20 you checked the ozone resistance of this particular PE?
 
    Re-check you data.. excellent resistance to O3 = at below=20 120 degrees.. maybe some swelling at 140 degrees.

> Also some materials catalyze ozone destruction (reversal = to O2),=20 such materials in your ozonized air circuit would result in not much = ozone=20 reaching the water you want to treat.
>
> Michel
> =
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R.C.Macaulay"=20 <walhalla@cvtv.net>
> To:=20 <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>=20 Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:25 AM
> Subject: [VO]:Re: Ozone and = isotopes of O by microwave exitation
>
>
> = Blank
>=20 Michael wrote..
>
>>Are you into the design of an = ozonizer=20 Richard?
>
> Zachary wrote..
>>Would you be = unveiling a=20 master plan to mention what you need that a
> commercial ozone = unit won't=20 provide?
>
>
> We have some experience in industrial = size=20 ozone generating systems in the 1000PPD and above range. The problems, = the=20 maintenance and the trouble mixing ozone beg for better = technology.  It=20 seems that microwave may have some application considering the huge = transformer=20 banks required to boost voltage for the present technology, plus the = problems=20 with drying the air or the dangers of using pure oxy. Ozone gas is so = stubborn=20 that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are extremely = short=20 lived and it is deadly. Takes the finger nail polish off my nails=20 <grin>
>
> Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind = is an=20 idea for using O6 as a "grease" to slide the O3  into the water = molecule..=20 I know, Yes , I know it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. = But if it=20 is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around = to argue=20 the point.. it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 = catches=20 on .. by using a form of velocity shear upwards to 150f/s periphical = velocity of=20 a parabolic segment shaped "knife". We have been successful using this = method=20 for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play fair. Microwave = may be=20 the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and = have=20 the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had our=20 Gasmastrrr units returned for service that have the UHMW rotating member = shot=20 with electro-chem pitting that is a form of  SL cavitation. Ultra = high=20 molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that.
> =
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> --
> = No=20 virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free=20 Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.9/719 - = Release Date:=20 3/12/2007 8:41 AM
>
>
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7648A.471BFEF0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 14:52:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CEpn31027147; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 06:51:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CEplew027101; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:51:47 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:51:47 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F5699C.3000403@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:54:20 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <119101c76419$871f1670$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F48678.5090701@ix.netcom.com> <11cf01c7646b$e215db70$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <11cf01c7646b$e215db70$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73648 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > >>The input in my case was about 0.5 watt with 2.5 watts excess. The ratio >>looks good in this one case, but it means nothing. > > > 0.5W electrical in, 0.5W+2.5W=3W heat out? So this would be a COP of 6, why do you think it means nothing? It means nothing because no effort was made to control or maximize the COP. The COP is an engineering measurement that is only be relevant to a working device. Once the mechanism is understood and can be modified to maximize efficiency, the COP can be made very large. At the present time, the important parameter is the measurement of excess energy. Even the amount is not important as long as it is greater than the error in the calorimeter. The important issue is measuring and understanding the phenomenon, not making it efficient. > > >>The best and most complete heat measurements have been published by >>McKubre et al. However, similar results have been experienced in at >>least 157 independent studies. > > > No, I was asking about a published excess heat experiment of yours, sorry if I was unclear. I tried to publish the 2.5 W measurement but this was rejected. As a result, I have stopped wasting my time publishing experimental work. I will probably describe the result at ICCF-13. Writing a book is a better use of my time and it cannot be stopped by skeptics. My last experimental publication was at ICCF-10. Ed > Michel > > >>Ed >> >>Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>>Thanks Ed, to get a better picture I would have liked to know at least an order of magnitude of the input (or output) power too, I mean is it closer to 100W or to 1kW? >>> >>>Also, among your published CF experiments on LENR.org, which one in your opinion presents the best evidence of excess heat? >>> >>>Michel >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>To: >>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 8:44 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in excess >>>>of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement during >>>>such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a calorimeter >>>>with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed to maximize the >>>>efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio has no meaning. >>>> >>>>Ed >>>> >>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>No, no, I was asking specifically about your last overunity COP, which you got personally 6 months ago. I know about your reviews, they are available on lenr.org. >>>>> >>>>>Michel >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 4:57 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Michel, no one is being evasive. The data have been made public in many >>>>>>publications. I identify over 1000 in my book. People who are truly >>>>>>interested in the subject can read my reviews and get the answers to >>>>>>most of their questions. Many people have done this and a few who are >>>>>>wealthy enough are putting money into the research. The problem of >>>>>>acceptance involves people who will not read the literature or are not >>>>>>able to understand the information. Of course, a few people, such as >>>>>>Shermer do not want the effect to be real because the myth is too useful >>>>>>to their skeptical view of science. In any case, if you want answers to >>>>>>your questions, read my reviews or buy my book. >>>>>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>Ed >>>>>> >>>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Not pressing you for an answer but I don't follow your reasoning Ed. I would think early superconductivity researchers answered "10°K" right away when asked about their transition temperature. If they had been evasive, I doubt further research would have been financed. Or what am I missing? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>> >>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>From: "Michel Jullian" >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:37 AM >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>CF is not at the "What's the good" stage yet I am afraid. What was the COP then? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:16 AM >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>What was the magnitude of your last heat production BTW, in terms of COP? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>These are the wrong questions to ask. This is like asking about >>>>>>>>>superconductivity 20 years ago and rejecting the answer when the >>>>>>>>>transition temperature is quoted as being only 10°K. What's the good of >>>>>>>>>such a low temperature you would ask. After many millions of dollars and >>>>>>>>>thousands of man hours, superconductivity is a practical technology. No >>>>>>>>>one at the time believed the transition temperature could be increased >>>>>>>>>to near room temperature. Yet people kept working and are now gradually >>>>>>>>>succeeding. Cold fusion is real. When the conditions are understood, the >>>>>>>>>effect will be huge and will work every time. Or you can believe the >>>>>>>>>effect is pure nonsense and never make an effort to improve the results. >>>>>>>>>The people who succeed will be very wealthy and the people who reject >>>>>>>>>the idea will look like fools. Your choice. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:12 PM >>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>My last successful heat production was about 6 months ago. At the >>>>>>>>>>>present time, the effect is initiated by chance when the required >>>>>>>>>>>conditions happen to be in place. We do not yet know how to create the >>>>>>>>>>>conditions on purpose. However, I can tell you a lot of conditions that >>>>>>>>>>>don't work, conditions worth avoiding. Also, some conditions are more >>>>>>>>>>>likely to work than others, but not every time. This problem is not >>>>>>>>>>>caused by error or by cold fusion not being real. It is caused solely by >>>>>>>>>>>ignorance. People who have the financial support to run many studies are >>>>>>>>>>>having increased success, but still not every time. Like all complex >>>>>>>>>>>phenomenon, parameter space is huge and success only happens after a >>>>>>>>>>>considerable investment of time and money. This investment has not been >>>>>>>>>>>applied, thanks to the skeptics. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Paul probably meant "in your experience", could you e.g. relate when you last witnessed the effect personally Ed? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Michel >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:57 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>In answer to your question, cold fusion is real. In fact it is more >>>>>>>>>>>>>real than is the uninformed opinion of Michael Shermer. By this I mean, >>>>>>>>>>>>>cold fusion is a phenomenon of nature that has been witnessed now by >>>>>>>>>>>>>hundreds of people. Obviously, Michael Shermer has not taken the >>>>>>>>>>>>>responsibility to learn about the field even thought he prides himself >>>>>>>>>>>>>on being an honest skeptic. As a result, it is hard to believe anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>he says about any subject. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>A book entitled "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>published soon by World Scientific Publishers that will summarize the >>>>>>>>>>>>>evidence for the reality of cold fusion and give a plausible model for >>>>>>>>>>>>>its initiation. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>Ed Storms >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Did anyone listen to Coast to Coast AM (replay) last night where the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>skeptic Michael Shermer, director of "The Skeptics Society," kept using >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cold Fusion as a prime example of a debacle hoax. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>For those working in cold fusion, is cold fusion real? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul Lowrance >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 16:00:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CG0X1A020717; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:00:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CG0VTa020701; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:00:31 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:00:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:00:19 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-Reply-To: <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <888XBC.A.ZDF.ekX9FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73649 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >I seriously doubt that the "hidden costs" of your use of electricity >is completely covered by what you pay. That is correct. > Want to pay more? Yes, I do want to pay more, and I shall, as soon as "green electricity" becomes available. I have signed up for it. > Say, $500-600 per month more? No, the difference is nowhere near as large as this. At least not for someone who consumes as little electricity as I do. The hidden costs of gasoline are far greater than the hidden costs of electricity. In Georgia, the hidden costs are mainly for pollution and global warming caused by coal. Unfortunately, 63% of our electricity comes from coal. We have no wind resources and no untapped hydro, so the only alternative is more nuclear power (presently 27%). I would be happy to pay extra for all-nuclear power. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/states/statesga.html > Much electricity is derived from oil, and almost all of it is from > fossil fuels. No, only about 3% of electricity is derived from oil, and that includes fractions of oil that cannot be used for any other purpose. It is mainly used for peak generators in some rural areas, and even this is declining. Petroleum power generation was never large; it peaked in 1978 at about 22% of U.S. generation (365 billion kWH), and it has fallen to 3% (90 billion kWH, 2002 data). See the Annual Energy Review, EIA. > You get no free ride either, buddy. But again, of course it is > different when it is YOU. You are the one demanding a free ride, not me. >>No you do not. That's the problem. Your fuel costs you $2 per >>gallon and it costs the rest of us $3 extra in hidden costs. You >>are forcing the rest of us to bail you out. > >Buses and trains use fossil fuels as well. They use much less per passenger mile. That's the point. Plus they are flexible. In California, where only 1% of electricity is generated from coal, electric trains produce far less global warming than they do in Georgia or New York. >As I said above, so does most electricity in this nation, and the >world in fact...particularly the hell than is China...with their >coal plants they must be accruing a SERIOUS "hidden cost"... maybe >we should destroy that nation entirely for the good of the planet? They are destroying their own nation. If they would build wind and nuclear power generators instead, they will prevent this destruction. (They do not have much solar energy where the energy is needed.) > Logic such as yours can be dragged out to ridiculous extremes. That is called the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html >Again, you want to pay a few hundred extra per month for >electricity? No? Then screw off attempting to control our lives. This is completely incorrect. In California, electricity costs only a little more than in Georgia or New York, and they produce far less pollution and carbon per kWH. If present trends continue they will produce no carbon at all 30 to 50 years from now, and the cost per kWH will be lower than our coal-based electricity. >>No it should not. It is a sure thing. You might as well debate >>whether cold fusion is real. > >Tell that to Freeman Dyson, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, etc. They >question what is going on. Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact -- that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have made another logical error. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html >I suppose you think they are all idiots. With regard to this subject, yes. > People like Park feel the same way about cold fusion researchers. Yes, but they are wrong, and I am right. I have the facts and the science to back up my claims, whereas they do not. It is the same with your assertion that clean electricity would cost me "hundreds more." That assertion can be checked against actual cost data from California, Germany, nuclear power in Georgia, and other sources. I can prove that clean electricity would not cost me hundreds. Therefore you are wrong. This is not a matter of opinion. >You really don't get it do you? If you put that kind of tax on >travel, you will DESTROY the US economy overnight. Nonsense. The U.S. is made of sterner stuff than that. We Americans accomplished great things in the past. We won terrible wars in 1860 (won and lost), 1918 and 1945. We can fix this problem too, and we can certainly live with a tax. Our economic competitors in Europe and Asia do. I for one do not think that Americans are weaker, stupider or less resourceful than people in Europe and Asia. I have been to these places, lived there, and I am not afraid to compete with them. > People will starve, riot, the cities will burn. You seem to think that Americans are helpless babies who cannot live without welfare payments! Are we really so stupid we cannot make our transportation safe and pollution free? I have to pay the hidden costs for your gasoline? I think we can fix our problems at least as well the people in Denmark or Germany do. >>I am helping people do cold fusion experiments, in many ways. > >Do tell. See: lenr-canr.org. >Now I did not know that. I would have expected the media to have >defended her, as one of their own. Probably the truth didn't make a >very interesting story, however. Shame on me for listening to the mass media. I recommend original sources. See, for example: http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/02/08/dod_pelosi_letter.pdf The media is not reliable regarding cold fusion either. >>I think it would be more practical to use the solar power directly, >>for electricity and heat. To make synthetic fuel nuclear energy >>might be a better choice. > >Who pays the hidden costs of extracting that nuclear fuel, and >cleaning up the radioactive crap belched out by these facilities? This used to be a problem, but the cost is now is now built into the nuclear powered electricity, with a large surtax (a couple pennies per kWh, as I recall, but that is a lot). This is used for a trust fund that should cover decommissioning and cleaning up the mines, which are a lot better than they used to be. >>GM is selling SUVs. Our corporations and consumers are at fault. >>Some leaders in the U.S., such as the U.S. Toyota managers, and >>some U.S. consumers -- such as me -- have done a lot to fix these problems. > >You bought a Prius...you've done so much. I have done my share. Buying a Prius a few years ago was a sacrifice -- or an investment, to be exact. The payback was slow when gasoline still cost $1.50. I spent a lot of money on a new car when the old one gave up the ghost. I re-insulated my house. I am willing to pay more for "green electricity." I buy locally gown, low-energy input food. What more do you want me to do? If everyone did their share, the U.S. would be exporting oil. I take responsibility and pay my share. You are the one who is whining and demanding that the rest of us pay for your lifestyle. > Most people cannot afford those damned things, and people with a > few kids and groceries to get need something else, say a minivan. How is that people in Europe, Japan and Korea can afford to pay for more efficient cars, lightbulbs, insulation and food, and we cannot? They make less than we do. "These damned things" pay for themselves in the long run. They are a good investment. > I've worked on these things a few times, they are a nightmare to > repair, and a double nightmare to the customer. Which things do you mean? Prius automobiles? They are not a nightmare to repair. I know several people who have them, and I have spoken at length with the Toyota mechanics who maintain my car. They agree with me that the Prius is an engineering masterpiece and they report is *far* easier to repair and maintain than the older technology. Of course you have to have sophisticated and expensive computerized equipment. That is the price you must pay for more sophisticated technology. >>>ain't the damned answer either, and it looks like it never will be in the >>>forseeable future. >> >>I disagree. If it has been developed properly starting in 1989, I >>am pretty sure that by now it would supply most of energy, or all >>of our energy. > >Then why isn't it being demonstrated absolutely, conclusively? Because it was not developed properly, as I said. >>>Dog eat dog, eh? Ok. How about a federal ban on any environmental impact >>>studies when we start paving the desert with solar collectors. >> >>There is no need to pave the desert when installing solar >>collectors! This would be a very bad idea, in fact. You have to >>leave the open dirt under the collectors to absorb rainwater. In >>Europe they grow grass under collectors, and graze sheep. > >I wasn't being literal. I am not sure what you had in mind, in that case. Anyway, solar collectors have few adverse effects on the land. Actually, they help livestock and some wildlife, by providing shade. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 16:02:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CG1qGj021369; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:01:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CG1oQZ021341; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:01:50 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:01:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <130f01c764bf$be6bdea0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <002f01c76445$60c4f4f0$c905a8c0@xptower> <11e901c7647f$4ecc6230$3800a8c0@zothan> <001401c764b4$302f3700$c905a8c0@xptower> Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:01:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CG1mAK021320 Resent-Message-ID: <306DAD.A.ZNF.ulX9FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73650 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation >> We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems in the 1000PPD and above range. > > What's a PPD? Ozone gas is measured in pounds per day .. PPD OK thanks, pounds must be some indigenous unit I guess ;) Seriously, that's a hell of a lot of ozone! >> Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are >> extremely short lived and it is deadly. > > Not deadly (I read somewhere that no casualty has ever been attributed to ozone), but it's very painful if you inhale too much of it, very much like inhaling bleach, no wonder it has a similar effect on microorganisms. Very deadly.. a extreme oxidant. Correct, I should have said "deadly, but no casualty recorded" (unless you know of any) > How is the ozone laden air pressurized in the industrial units you're using, air pump upstream of the ozone generation I imagine? And what's the operating principle of the O3 generator itself, is it the AC operated glass tube type? The incoming air is compressed, chilled and dried. The air enters the electric arc chambers 8" diameter pipe runs( depending on type) and mixed into the main process water . The air handling systems can be pressured or vacuum. OK, that's how I imagined it basically. >> Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a "grease" to slide the O3 >> into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. >> But if it is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the point.. >> it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 catches on .. by using a form of velocity >> shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of a parabolic segment shaped "knife". > > I doubt this makes the slightest sense to anyone except perhaps yourself, but hey this is Vortex :) > Hey ! You're not in Kindergarten.. Vortex is for people with some elastic in their minds. Indeed! >> We have been successful using this method for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play >> fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and have >> the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had our Gasmastrrr units returned for >> service that have the UHMW rotating member > > What's this, your tank-bottom ozonized air bubbler? See .. www.gasmastrrr.com Nice! If that's your site there is a typo BTW :"The MASTRRR COMPANY manufacture_r_s a variety" The gas is discharged into large mixing tanks filled with water. The off-gas ozone that fails to mix is either recycled or is destroyed so Michel doesn't learn the hard way that the stuff can kill ya. Yeah, especially if Richard sneaks lethal "O6 isotopes" into it :) > >> shot with electro-chem pitting > > Chem pitting more likely. I guess you mean electro-chem like pitting? Electro-chem pitting description covers a range.. strange to see the results.. if you ever saw the results of propeller or pump impeller cavitation you would understand. > >> that is a form of SL cavitation. > > What's this ? Here goes.... sonolumeniscense.. long for SL.. So you observe light emissions from your rotating arm? In this case yes you probably have all sorts of ionic species in there, so your electro-chem description is appropriate. > >> Ultra high molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that. > > Very few materials are ozone resistant Richard. Have you checked the ozone resistance of this particular PE? Re-check you data.. excellent resistance to O3 at below 120 degrees.. maybe some swelling at 140 degrees. I never said I had checked any data, good thing you have. Don't take my casual comments as criticisms BTW, I was not supposed to know the extent of your knowledge in this field, it's obviously excellent, better than mine on some points, thanks for the interesting discussion. Michel > Also some materials catalyze ozone destruction (reversal to O2), such materials in your ozonized air circuit would result in not much ozone reaching the water you want to treat. > > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R.C.Macaulay" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:25 AM > Subject: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation > > > Blank > Michael wrote.. > >>Are you into the design of an ozonizer Richard? > > Zachary wrote.. >>Would you be unveiling a master plan to mention what you need that a > commercial ozone unit won't provide? > > > We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems in the 1000PPD and above range. The problems, the maintenance and the trouble mixing ozone beg for better technology. It seems that microwave may have some application considering the huge transformer banks required to boost voltage for the present technology, plus the problems with drying the air or the dangers of using pure oxy. Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are extremely short lived and it is deadly. Takes the finger nail polish off my nails > > Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a "grease" to slide the O3 into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. But if it is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the point.. it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 catches on .. by using a form of velocity shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of a parabolic segment shaped "knife". We have been successful using this method for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and have the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had our Gasmastrrr units returned for service that have the UHMW rotating member shot with electro-chem pitting that is a form of SL cavitation. Ultra high molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that. > > Richard > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.9/719 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 8:41 AM > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 16:09:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CG8uue024749; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:08:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CG8tkC024724; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:08:55 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:08:55 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:08:49 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73651 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in >excess of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement >during such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a >calorimeter with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed >to maximize the efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio >has no meaning. It has no meaning in the sense that it does not predict whether cold fusion can be made practical. It tells us nothing about whether one technique is more promising than another in the long term. However, a high ratio does make the calorimetry easier. That is to say, it is easier to measure 2.5 W with 5 W of electrolysis input than with 35 W input. (The input power is sometimes called the "background," as in "a 5 W background.") It resembles instrument noise in this respect, except that electrolysis input is a deliberate and inescapable part of the experiment. Gas loading and some other methods have no input background power, so they are easier to confirm with a high s/n ratio. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 16:28:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CGRugv006439; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:27:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CGRsbD006404; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:27:54 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:27:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:27:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CGRpk8006351 Resent-Message-ID: <0qLSQC.A.yjB.J-X9FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73652 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Since you know them all and for a reason, a link to a CF paper describing a COP of the order that ED described (6) would be welcome Jed. TIA Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > Edmund Storms wrote: > >>Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in >>excess of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement >>during such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a >>calorimeter with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed >>to maximize the efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio >>has no meaning. > > It has no meaning in the sense that it does not predict whether cold > fusion can be made practical. It tells us nothing about whether one > technique is more promising than another in the long term. However, a > high ratio does make the calorimetry easier. That is to say, it is > easier to measure 2.5 W with 5 W of electrolysis input than with 35 W > input. (The input power is sometimes called the "background," as in > "a 5 W background.") It resembles instrument noise in this respect, > except that electrolysis input is a deliberate and inescapable part > of the experiment. Gas loading and some other methods have no input > background power, so they are easier to confirm with a high s/n ratio. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 16:31:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CGVPXE009587; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:31:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CGVN1Z009572; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:31:23 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:31:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mjMOPhnhSKN5nsZo3wjBMRuifQilJQcJWYiG/TtlCsxft22gPr3pJNzi9bAUd5iqM44FfHPqBDMaIOd1El8dWBhR47814/AfDUgLK8m70+2tQ8Ei6XJCARIJ9g3yKYBUK4NiBvT475jiLz48nvnZAaIKIyOs/E8ynJjp3GACjIw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XjbGDuL6kI4+pRte3pUfN8sH8pOYmdmw1gJSx5HO8R7etJzkPl8V0U9QOmgZttCq/XjwKVfc8ulIMJ07LBfYmvAN47jMg3zF9isOSjl5q3WZWTH+tl0FksoBoc1iXRxUsUWgDEGH9/tv8uwExIVr8opZJvnqOrL3iLnc6UWqFkM= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:31:21 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-Reply-To: <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73653 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/11/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Who pays the hidden costs of extracting that nuclear fuel, and cleaning up > the radioactive crap belched out by these facilities? None of them are > clean, they leak radioactive water into the environment all the time. Actually, for a given amount of energy, coal produces more radioactive waste than nuclear power: http://russp.org/nucfacts.html Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 16:37:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CGbCxF012049; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:37:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CGbBNe012028; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:37:11 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:37:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=cC3Rur2E0WYuDsDPdlBxyqHZs3VKc81FaUxY1gB9cQw2rVoyE1sXqx3RIR9rKumd1r6W50t5rj39ikvW9RzAftT8GDr56nbkJiROBp9sQWLgYQLMvtiro6Foden61+batWOXqJI8fIWGRuEiaKLknyjtx9T7GHyc0HDJ+Es1myM= ; X-YMail-OSG: Sgk2UYAVM1nUd.RmYtFk18Vhabihda28fCxcxqrEgoegvR50VzjtU9vxi3QRrHp4fRz6QTNzkxE2sUPeq_4eIpoC7ls0FZn39WmERuOeWLnm0_nGB662z.F.NTDbDYd.ogThvAXfQQwqR8M.keECRf4n9w-- Message-ID: <45F58192.9040401@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:36:34 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73654 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Negentropy - honed to a point Status: O X-Status: Subject: Negentropy - honed to a point I am hoping to ad this 'Subject line' to the prior thread, which went astray in cyberspace. Have we yet determined why this happens: the blank subject line? Does it have anything to do with the confluence of "entropy and information" or is it something more carnivorous? Michel Jullian wrote, > "Heatless explosion, interesting, I had never heard of this although when you think about it there are well known chemical reactions where volume increases while heat is absorbed, namely evaporations, so if you combine any heat-releasing reaction, explosive or not, with an evaporation reaction absorbing exactly the same heat you get an explosion which doesn't release any heat. > Elementary thermochemistry, doesn't violate any LoT I am afraid. Well, the devil is in the details, and there are aspects of this which are devilishly far from the simple Michel, and far from "elementary" I am afraid, except perhaps for those observers who do not wish to be challenged by the implications of a unique situation or look close enough for the anomaly. Let me explain. Or - you can avail yourself of pertinent literature directly: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=313817AFDE72404E29A1776595ABE980.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=18687 If a liquid at ambient temperature such as water, is violently turned into steam, with no energy input - and that steam is expanded through a turbine, where work is done - then ostensibly free-energy has been seen. Aha, you respond- but this never happens, so it 'doesn't violate any LoT I am afraid.' However, Graneau et al. have shown that lowly water, at lest some types of H2O, *does* have an unexplained energy component which can be released. One of their papers also appears in "Infinite Energy". And more importantly, if a liquid at ambient temperature such as HOOH, is violently turned into steam, with no energy input - and that steam is expanded through a turbine, and a surprising amount of work is done, then ostensibly free-energy has been seen. Aha, you respond- yes this does happen, but it 'doesn't violate any LoT I am afraid, since an equal or greater amount of work was involved in producing the HOOH.' This is reflexive response. But are you certain that HOOH cannot be produced from water and oxygen without an equal or greater amount of "work" than that which was is created on its expansion (explosion)? Cannot some of that input be of the Graneau variety? And even if that is not the case, does not a return of almost all of the energy employed, even ambient, upwards to 99% returned - doesn't that violate at least the intent of Carnot's insight as to heat engine efficiency? You see, now we have honed the situation down to where it as far from elementary thermochemistry as that field permits - and it is not at all clear to anyone who understands the intricacies of this situation that that overall system - even if it doesn't directly violate a LoT, at least as promulgated to fit the new situation, is definitely at least five times (COP=5) more efficient than if one attempted to shoehorn the results into the Carnot equations. Here is that Wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_heat_engine Yes everyone knows that Carnot's equations are still called a 'theorem' and cannot be elevated to a real law, since they only apply to limited kind of heat engine, but how can a HOOH engine violate the Carnot result by 500%? Of course, it is always a simple task to amend, or to reinterpret any sacrosanct "law" to account for hidden inputs like so-called "ambient energy" or in the case of Graneau, they suspect some kind of solar activation of water and this can be incorporated into the manufacture of an "offending" chemical, which is based on water. But that is the only way that this particular system, peroxide, doesn't violate any LoT, I am afraid. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 16:51:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CGpZqd021774; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:51:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CGpX9W021759; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:51:33 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:51:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=K8y4l6rA94dbGrS6U/Oooyz183Z6Uv4waI/Dbgz7COV5Z79hn4sDETrdyWyGg4jZZegLs8ELDGK1XdrI+VSglnVj3lyIlVyJFW6wHQWLBgkDk4c02YVhrqWADoP7J5YEsQJzUQUEopBTlloVy5qLjkKFwWYTvABvkDT3uiq6d3U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dxdAUKCuEYmP3h8LGqn17NDv8IOzQkKLJjdGWKcDcN9n2GzqnblxoJSXblRNLhmhKWbDdYz7PogQxTMJYI1gKLMr7rN696h/X6Xbp+fH3n+H5057lYt14QyJehZZBi5X2nHEC9AHFQOsEfZo33OlYt2u0SG+B5XxcuMAiB7Rn7c= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:51:15 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4984_10223571.1173718275458" References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73655 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4984_10223571.1173718275458 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/13/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > >Tell that to Freeman Dyson, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, etc. They > >question what is going on. > > Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these > others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact -- > that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about > cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have > made another logical error. See: > > http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority would you? ------=_Part_4984_10223571.1173718275458 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/13/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>Tell that to Freeman Dyson, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, etc. They
>question what is going on.

Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these
others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact --
that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about
cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have
made another logical error. See:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority would you?

------=_Part_4984_10223571.1173718275458-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 17:11:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CHAxYV029087; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:11:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CHAw8g029054; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:10:58 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:10:58 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iyJP0o2EbE1O/uy2S0PcjQqcMsYDBxDZrRV5mvmXZXG0mmdM0WSY4hEYTS+ur43I6XijNPBicBWQ1asHiDYNUtoAPtBM28ev1zMqYw9miPGfsHO8zkyCZkAIJEZGzJt9EaRNqRF//JNiRG2GYSNgej2LcD9pm3w1tgx1wP4udH0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dTdHtrb4p5+/8lAQGScTz12xXuqvyIFU424vyuaf6vA498gxmJ5zdA/FVB68uTuKElcpH6PsKR1AqMUxc/aRmfKdYZws9KH+cYe8fLpruHt3/AXX/V8j8bqedTOyYMTz9/Jbhk9mZALuZzqxezmZXTEylM/tjqZRva89W/CQEAo= Message-ID: <45F58991.90207@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:10:41 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: looking for long wavelength LED's References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_c7zjB.A.4FH.imY9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73656 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone have access to a long wavelength LED >= 1300 nm? If so then > I would ***very much*** appreciate it if you could perform a simple > voltage measurement experiment, or better yet I would be more than happy > to purchase your mid-IR LED. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > I found a company that sells a 4500 nm LED, but I'll hold of on buying it since it's $108 for just one LED! Does anyone have any idea how they make these MID-IR LEDs? Photodiodes are perhaps easier to make. I know Lead Sulfide reacts to long wavelengths between 1000 nm and 3500 nm. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 17:26:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CHQS5p006801; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:26:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CHQRQ0006785; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:26:27 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:26:26 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:26:12 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73657 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these >others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact -- >that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about >cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have >made another logical error. See: > >http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html > > >No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority >would you? No, I never do. I had excellent teachers and I learned to avoid all of the common logical errors of this type. I often point to experts, and I defer to their authority, but this is NOT an appeal to authority. There is a great deal of confusion about this, so I suggest you read the Nizkor site definition carefully. To simplify, an "appeal to authority" fallacy should more properly called "an appeal to false authority." That is, a citation of a person who thinks he is an authority, or claims he is, but who actually is not. For example, suppose we are discussing electrochemistry and you cite an opinion or statement by Bockris. You have made a good point, because Bockris understands electrochemistry and his pronouncements on the subject carry weight. If I try to counter you by citing statements by Gary Taubes (from his book), that would be an appeal to authority fallacy because even though Taubes claims he knows this subject, he does not. Not only should the person in question be an actual authority, he should offer a cogent explanation for his views. If Bockris were to say, "I'm right and I do not need to tell you why" he would be abusing his authority. (He would never do that, but some other experts do.) Quoting Nizkor: An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true. This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious. This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true. . . . Nizkor make other important clarifications, such as: "Determining whether or not a person has the needed degree of expertise can often be very difficult. . . ." I suggest you read this carefully. Please note that logical errors of this type are well established. Most were discovered and named by ancient Greek and Roman philosophers. There is no point to making mistakes such as "An Appeal To Authority" (or "Ad Verecundiam" as they said in Ancient Rome ), "Slippery Slope" or "Appeal to Tradition" in a scientific discussion. It is like making an elementary arithmetic error. You can easily avoid these things with a little practice. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 17:45:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CHixXo018417; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:44:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CHivGq018393; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:44:57 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:44:57 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312132626.03774e60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:44:48 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-Reply-To: References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4qrja.A.RfE.ZGZ9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73658 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >On 3/11/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > >>Who pays the hidden costs of extracting that nuclear fuel, and cleaning up >>the radioactive crap belched out by these facilities? None of them are >>clean, they leak radioactive water into the environment all the time. > >Actually, for a given amount of energy, coal produces more radioactive >waste than nuclear power I mentioned this in Chapter 2 of my book. We should note that Kyle Mcallister is quite right that there have been serious problems with radioactive water leaking from nuclear reactors. The worst case in recent years in the U.S. was the Connecticut Yankee fiasco. However, properly designed and maintained nuclear reactors do not leak radioactive water, whereas even a properly designed coal plant spews radioactive garbage everywhere, along with carbon dioxide. The radioactive garbage has been reduced, but it cannot be eliminated with present-day technology, or reduced to levels as low as that of a properly designed and maintained fission reactor. Perhaps it is possible to design a coal plant that does not do this, and there are even designs for plants that capture and sequester the CO2, but I do not think these coal plants could be made cost-effective. I expect fission reactors would be cheaper per kWH. In geographical areas where wind or intense sunlight are available, these sources are already cheaper than fission reactors, and far cheaper than coal when you take into account hidden costs. Unfortunately, as I said, we do not have wind or cheap solar resources in Georgia. A nagging problem with fission reactors is that when something does go drastically wrong -- as happened with TMI, Connecticut Yankee, Rancho Seco, Brown's Ferry and so on -- the consequences can be severe. These incidents each cost billions of dollars to clean up. Years ago there was a lot of debate about whether the nuclear power surcharge will be enough to decommission and clean-up nuclear plants. I think this debate has subsided, because several plants were decommissioned and satisfactorily cleaned up, so we now have a better handle on how much it costs. We can be fairly confident that the trust fund is large enough. Also, some of the old mines were cleaned up. However, some experts still dispute this. The cost of long-term storage of nuclear waste is a huge question mark, but I believe this problem is mainly politics rather than a fiscal problem. Once the political and scientific issues are settled I do not think it will cost much to bury the waste. (I mean it will be cheap per kWH. The actual sums will be tremendous.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 17:58:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CHwmZ6031795; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:58:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CHwlCE031775; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:58:47 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:58:47 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FkNVRXCMZ8B6mxf5+J59feAXVqtZ0xY4eCIOGmv942Mig6N2YnvazEbQY/WQndWlhvSJ5NzwbaCd31wJtTHCkY1mfxZO/ZBdry5ZwfdOWrLl25irMzQVJ4XBpVgC+XD1wY4JhW8fwri/z+2B+fFl8J6H15Ff0JNoNcygHOO+HuI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KUyBtE+yrG27e3IQxK9ecpbCLshAghWZGkCM3b1CTVQBTrtObvYbPVV1CEDBWtpw5MZC9Y875SgR1pzO0qI5AAXlHnCw1OzdY1zmRuVztKrX3osh/eRqetgMhSYBMkSxln4sU31REv8tcR/m/4vIJqogcNYWQPR2/9vf6chlavQ= Message-ID: <45F594CC.8040908@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:58:36 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: LED's capturing blackbody radiation - An Important Request References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73659 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Important email. If you don't like reading big emails then please scroll down till you see the header "IMPORTANT." I know that an LED can capture some black body radiation and convert it to DC electrical energy. Unfortunately, as far as I know not until recently LED's were unable to emit or absorb any appreciable radiation near 4500 nm. A typical long wavelength IR LED is 950 nm with 50 nm BW. Somewhere I have the figures, but basically the amount of black body energy at room temperature between 925 nm and 975 nm is next to useless. On the other hand, the amount of black body radiation energy between 4400 nm and 4600 nm is significant. I have no idea how efficient these leading edge MID-IR LED's are at absorbing such radiation, but I for one *firmly* believe it's at least worth the effort to find out. Supposedly these 4500 nm LED's are efficient at emitting such radiation. My experiments demonstrate normal LED's act as a good photovoltaic cell. For example, take two similar LED's face to face. Apply ~1.5 volts on one LED while reading the DC voltage of the other LED. Some LED's are good enough to generate close to 1.5 volts. Now separate the LED's till you get 1 mV. Now double the distance and if done properly you'll see the voltage will drop by ~1/2. I just received a quote from such a leading edge LED company of $108 for one single LED! That should give you an idea just how leading edge these LED's are. I had an idea of trying to get that LED company to perform a simple test, rather than pay $108 + S&H to buy one LED. Here's the idea --> IMPORTANT: If anyone has the time, could you *please* send an email to the http://deepredtech.com LED company requesting the following experiment, perhaps in your own words? I would like to give them the idea that collaborated physicists around the world are interested. And it's true, physicists would be interested if these leading edge ultra long wavelength LED's could indeed capture a part of the 460 Watts/m^2 blackbody radiation that's peak at ~15000 nm at room temperature. Now I have to admit, there's an appreciable chance this company does not have the appropriate equipment or patience to measure this noise, as the active area of these LED's are roughly 300 x 300 um^2. So the amount of voltage noise caused by black body radiation could be quite small. Here's the email I sent to info@deepredtech.com which you could use an an example. --- Hi, Thanks for the reply! Could you possibly have someone take a quick measurement on your LED46 since I did not see it in the datasheet? I would like to know the rms voltage noise the LED46 generates when it's pointed at a wall of the same temperature. So if the LED46 temperature is 300 Kelvin then the wall temperature should also be close to 300 Kelvin. If you do not have a sensitive rms meter capable of measuring down to 0.1 mV then even an eyeball reading of the peek to peek voltage over say 1 minute would be great. Actually I am hoping your LED46 generates a lot of noise. If your LED generates a lot of voltage noise then a great deal of physicists around the world that I'm in contact with and I would purchase the LED's. --- Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 18:24:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CINtFc007879; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:23:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CINrmS007846; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:23:53 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:23:53 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:18:53 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73660 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Since you know them all and for a reason, a link to a CF paper >describing a COP of the order that ED described (6) would be welcome Jed. TIA I cannot think of any offhand. Most researchers do not report input electrolysis power for the reasons described by Ed. Mitchell Swartz is the only researcher I know who thinks the C.O.P. is important. I believe he has optimized for it, and achieved some high C.O.P.s. He has not contributed papers to LENR-CANR, and I do not find them elsewhere on the net, so I cannot cite an on-line example. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 19:31:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CJVkxm026629; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:31:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CJVe1O026590; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:31:40 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:31:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:31:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CJVZ4W026558 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73661 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Er... Jed, are you saying that most CF papers reporting excess heat do not report input power (or energy), nor output power (or energy) !? Or just that they don't use the term COP? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > Michel Jullian wrote: > >>Since you know them all and for a reason, a link to a CF paper >>describing a COP of the order that ED described (6) would be welcome Jed. TIA > > I cannot think of any offhand. Most researchers do not report input > electrolysis power for the reasons described by Ed. Mitchell Swartz > is the only researcher I know who thinks the C.O.P. is important. I > believe he has optimized for it, and achieved some high C.O.P.s. He > has not contributed papers to LENR-CANR, and I do not find them > elsewhere on the net, so I cannot cite an on-line example. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 19:47:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CJlRGg001936; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:47:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CJlPqZ001927; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:47:25 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:47:25 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:47:18 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9bMszD.A.-d.N5a9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73662 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Er... Jed, are you saying that most CF papers reporting excess heat >do not report input power (or energy), nor output power (or energy) !? They often report excess power or energy, which is output minus input. Of course there are papers that report all values. However, as Ed says, the input electrolysis power is generally considered irrelevant. It is a little like taking into account the energy consumed by the instruments used to measure the effect. (Of course you do have to do this when some of the instrument energy leaks into the calorimeter, for example when you use a fan inside a Seebeck calorimeter to make the inside air temperature uniform, you have to keep track of the fan input electricity.) > Or just that they don't use the term COP? Now that you mention it, I see only two refs for it with the Google search box at LENR-CANR: Dardik and one other. Dardik is here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIprogressin.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 20:20:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CKKSSw011530; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:20:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CKKRB9011514; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:20:27 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:20:27 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:20:05 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19598250==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73663 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_19598250==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >>Er... Jed, are you saying that most CF papers reporting excess heat >>do not report input power (or energy), nor output power (or energy) !? > >They often report excess power or energy, which is output minus >input. Of course there are papers that report all values. Some papers report only the excess power normalized to volume of Pd, which is annoying. Especially when you have no idea what the volume of Pd is. See, for example, Table 10, p. 44 in this otherwise excellent paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf This is really only useful for a comparison, not to get the absolute value. This proves that some materials work much better than others but there is no telling how much power was actually involved. The column headings are: Source, the supplier who provided the Pd d, cm, diameter in centimeters V, cm3, voltage normalized to the volume of Pd. (And who knows what that was?) Px/V, W/cm3, excess power per volt or watts per cm3. (Apparently the same in all cases? This must be the maximum for all run, such as the 9 positive runs with JM Pd, row #5) There is no mention of COP in any of Miles' papers as far as I can recall. He does often discuss electrochemical properties and recombination, especially in the context of his papers about his disagreement with Jones et al. But the ratios of input electrolysis power to output power (the COP) is not discussed. Miles or any electrochemist will know many steps for lowering this ratio by improving efficiency electrolysis. They do not take these steps because there is no point or because the steps will interfere with the experiment. For example, everyone knows you can reduce electrolysis power by putting the cathode and the anode closer together. Having the anode and cathode too close together makes it difficult to assemble the cell and observe the reaction (with a glass cell) so they leave them far apart. You cannot let them touch. With a liquid electrolysis when the anode and cathode touch it is short circuit and game over. For that matter, you can reduce electrolysis powered by a factor of a thousand or more by using a solid-state gas loaded proton conductor. This brings the anode and the cathode so close they touch, and it eliminates almost all resistance. Mizuno, Oriani and others reported some success with this technique. Input power is trivial -- less than a milliwatt, as I recall, and the output range from about half a watt to a burst large enough power to melt the ceramic proton conductor and vaporize the silver power leads. (This was probably thousands of watts or so for a few seconds.) But unfortunately, while this technique did show promise it is very difficult to do and after several years of struggle they gave up trying to improve it. They simply did not have the resources to make progress. If that avenue of research had been properly funded it might have panned out by now. I think Biberian is still pursuing this. His biggest problem is that the anode and cathode heat up and lose contact. In other words, they do not touch, which causes a failure -- the opposite from liquid electrolysis. - Jed --=====================_19598250==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

Er... Jed, are you saying that most CF papers reporting excess heat do not report input power (or energy), nor output power (or energy) !?

They often report excess power or energy, which is output minus input. Of course there are papers that report all values.

Some papers report only the excess power normalized to volume of Pd, which is annoying. Especially when you have no idea what the volume of Pd is. See, for example, Table 10, p. 44 in this otherwise excellent paper:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf

This is really only useful for a comparison, not to get the absolute value. This proves that some materials work much better than others but there is no telling how much power was actually involved. The column headings are:

Source, the supplier who provided the Pd

d, cm, diameter in centimeters

V, cm3, voltage normalized to the volume of Pd. (And who knows what that was?)

Px/V, W/cm3, excess power per volt or watts per cm3. (Apparently the same in all cases? This must be the maximum for all run, such as the 9 positive runs with JM Pd, row #5)

There is no mention of COP in any of Miles' papers as far as I can recall. He does often discuss electrochemical properties and recombination, especially in the context of his papers about his disagreement with Jones et al. But the ratios of input electrolysis power to output power (the COP) is not discussed. Miles or any electrochemist will know many steps for lowering this ratio by improving efficiency electrolysis. They do not take these steps because there is no point or because the steps will interfere with the experiment. For example, everyone knows you can reduce electrolysis power by putting the cathode and the anode closer together. Having the anode and cathode too close together makes it difficult to assemble the cell and observe the reaction (with a glass cell) so they leave them far apart. You cannot let them touch. With a liquid electrolysis when the anode and cathode touch it is short circuit and game over.

For that matter, you can reduce electrolysis powered by a factor of a thousand or more by using a solid-state gas loaded proton conductor. This brings the anode and the cathode so close they touch, and it eliminates almost all resistance. Mizuno, Oriani and others reported some success with this technique. Input power is trivial -- less than a milliwatt, as I recall, and the output range from about half a watt to a burst large enough power to melt the ceramic proton conductor and vaporize the silver power leads. (This was probably thousands of watts or so for a few seconds.) But unfortunately, while this technique did show promise it is very difficult to do and after several years of struggle they gave up trying to improve it. They simply did not have the resources to make progress. If that avenue of research had been properly funded it might have panned out by now.

I think Biberian is still pursuing this. His biggest problem is that the anode and cathode heat up and lose contact. In other words, they do not touch, which causes a failure -- the opposite from liquid electrolysis.

- Jed
--=====================_19598250==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 21:22:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CLM2nU016259; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:22:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CLM0wg016238; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:22:00 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:22:00 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000c01c762b0$b30a95d0$6bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <000d01c76328$446463e0$b793163f@DFBGQZ91> <45F2D1E8.1050505@gmail.com> <45F2F192.2000900@ix.netcom.com> <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:21:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CLLw66016218 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73664 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Jed but IMHO a CF paper claiming excess heat which wouldn't state -or provide the data to derive- the values which were subtracted from each other to derive it, would be definitely incomplete. A proper description of such an experiment would obviously state not only the values found, but also the method used to measure them. So my question to Ed is, among such proper descriptions of your own excess heat experiments, as I am sure there are plenty, is there one you could recommend? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >I wrote: > >>>Er... Jed, are you saying that most CF papers reporting excess heat >>>do not report input power (or energy), nor output power (or energy) !? >> >>They often report excess power or energy, which is output minus >>input. Of course there are papers that report all values. > > Some papers report only the excess power normalized to volume of Pd, > which is annoying. Especially when you have no idea what the volume > of Pd is. See, for example, Table 10, p. 44 in this otherwise excellent paper: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf > > This is really only useful for a comparison, not to get the absolute > value. This proves that some materials work much better than others > but there is no telling how much power was actually involved. The > column headings are: > > Source, the supplier who provided the Pd > > d, cm, diameter in centimeters > > V, cm3, voltage normalized to the volume of Pd. (And who knows what that was?) > > Px/V, W/cm3, excess power per volt or watts per cm3. (Apparently the > same in all cases? This must be the maximum for all run, such as the > 9 positive runs with JM Pd, row #5) > > There is no mention of COP in any of Miles' papers as far as I can > recall. He does often discuss electrochemical properties and > recombination, especially in the context of his papers about his > disagreement with Jones et al. But the ratios of input electrolysis > power to output power (the COP) is not discussed. Miles or any > electrochemist will know many steps for lowering this ratio by > improving efficiency electrolysis. They do not take these steps > because there is no point or because the steps will interfere with > the experiment. For example, everyone knows you can reduce > electrolysis power by putting the cathode and the anode closer > together. Having the anode and cathode too close together makes it > difficult to assemble the cell and observe the reaction (with a glass > cell) so they leave them far apart. You cannot let them touch. With a > liquid electrolysis when the anode and cathode touch it is short > circuit and game over. > > For that matter, you can reduce electrolysis powered by a factor of a > thousand or more by using a solid-state gas loaded proton conductor. > This brings the anode and the cathode so close they touch, and it > eliminates almost all resistance. Mizuno, Oriani and others reported > some success with this technique. Input power is trivial -- less than > a milliwatt, as I recall, and the output range from about half a watt > to a burst large enough power to melt the ceramic proton conductor > and vaporize the silver power leads. (This was probably thousands of > watts or so for a few seconds.) But unfortunately, while this > technique did show promise it is very difficult to do and after > several years of struggle they gave up trying to improve it. They > simply did not have the resources to make progress. If that avenue of > research had been properly funded it might have panned out by now. > > I think Biberian is still pursuing this. His biggest problem is that > the anode and cathode heat up and lose contact. In other words, they > do not touch, which causes a failure -- the opposite from liquid electrolysis. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 21:36:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CLa9Cs021159; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:36:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CLa8nU021133; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:36:08 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:36:08 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Negentropy - honed to a point Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:36:04 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6lhbv29cv13p8npmnet27h60e35fsetj91@4ax.com> References: <45F58192.9040401@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45F58192.9040401@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:36:04 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CLa5qx020961 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73665 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:36:34 -0700: Hi, [snip] >However, Graneau et al. have shown that lowly water, at lest some types >of H2O, *does* have an unexplained energy component which can be >released. One of their papers also appears in "Infinite Energy". [snip] Since they use high voltage electrical discharges to accomplish this (AFAIK), it seems to me that their results can adequately be explained by Hydrinos, either formed in situ as a result of catalysis by O++ &/or liberated from Faux D by the fast particles in the discharge. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 21:41:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CLf1sG023507; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:41:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CLf0ge023490; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:41:00 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:41:00 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: LED's capturing blackbody radiation - An Important Request Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:40:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F594CC.8040908@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45F594CC.8040908@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:40:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CLewU4023473 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73666 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Paul Lowrance's message of Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:58:36 -0800: Hi Paul, [snip] >your LED46 generates a lot of noise. If your LED generates a lot of voltage >noise then a great deal of physicists around the world that I'm in contact with >and I would purchase the LED's. [snip] If this appeal doesn't work, then you might have more luck purchasing a few LEDs and sending them free of charge to researchers who you believe might be inclined to make the necessary measurements. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 21:46:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CLkomX009444; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:46:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CLkl58009426; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:46:47 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:46:47 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HL3h3ViWbDMqMFxj9SXPdQ7RXn705e/Q3H7NPRzpn6m+EdZIGVVTza5kb7+2RuCUBgXs6zM7F8YtcBJvecsXYtpxIcxQCAeB7psqG+fcichtnGuVYBZ0kqghsXOgdSKtl+5EqXs9vM8q+DFId6Z5f1IUzwGJ09rVzBJ42kE62/M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HDO35C4lwplpgtmwCgwFKR+1uG1seu6DN4p0jo2Sq/bZad2yd7QMKMNLWsmq4aSOnBawnKGQDyioODlIpTyAhWFTs8aNPaIZ4JU2N/C+xw7ONW4eW//z9uXGINBcjaM9ucOrgcpmdBXEz42wQ1AufnTYHjQHoWSKCqvUhgK4eXA= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:46:45 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73667 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/12/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > Thanks Jed but IMHO 'H'??? I have seen no evidence of this. T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 22:16:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CMFkP4026235; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:15:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CMFjX9026222; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:15:45 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:15:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=I/4F/1d7eOYEMHScvRUDJe5WRpwW/HqxQuQrc3mMUcCXOsHsYSztullE5RqXkB33; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <12873381.1173737744369.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:15:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c98308aa719c83b832aed1db8d530a9ecb99d0a690b980324350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73668 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: > Some papers report only the excess power normalized to volume of Pd, > which is annoying. Especially when you have no idea what the volume > of Pd is. See, for example, Table 10, p. 44 in this otherwise excellent paper: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf > > This is really only useful for a comparison, not to get the absolute > value. . . . Come to think of it, the purpose of this table is to make a comparison, and the only way to do that is to normalize the values for different samples. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges. So that was a dumb thing for me to say. Miles assumed that the volume of the Pd is the key factor. I think nowadays many people think the surface area is key. Ed Storms would say it is the NAE, but that is impossible to measure with our present state of knowledge. So normalizing against volume is imperfect but better than nothing. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 22:19:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CMJAhe007000; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:19:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CMJ9AO006984; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:19:09 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:19:09 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:18:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73669 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Many CF researchers like to compare CF cells to a mini nuclear fission reactor, but instead of fission process providing the "excess" heat, it is a low temperature fusion process. This is why they tend not to be interested in power measurements and focus on energy measurements instead. Basically, this reflects the theoretical bias that cold fusion does not depend on any LofT violations. Or to put it another way cold fusion is a process which releases "stored" energy, instead of producing power from "nothing". Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Since you know them all and for a reason, a link to a CF paper describing a > COP of the order that ED described (6) would be welcome Jed. TIA > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > >> Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>> Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in >>> excess of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement >>> during such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a >>> calorimeter with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed >>> to maximize the efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio >>> has no meaning. >> >> It has no meaning in the sense that it does not predict whether cold >> fusion can be made practical. It tells us nothing about whether one >> technique is more promising than another in the long term. However, a >> high ratio does make the calorimetry easier. That is to say, it is >> easier to measure 2.5 W with 5 W of electrolysis input than with 35 W >> input. (The input power is sometimes called the "background," as in >> "a 5 W background.") It resembles instrument noise in this respect, >> except that electrolysis input is a deliberate and inescapable part >> of the experiment. Gas loading and some other methods have no input >> background power, so they are easier to confirm with a high s/n ratio. >> >> - Jed >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 22:28:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CMS1k8004550; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:28:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CMRxN4004508; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:27:59 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:27:59 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=JLHjY9HRqaq+nVenuojWYldZhRLCNqStpjtPQpGs9+KRatx8hBZ6AoyLmRs6gWS563yV4Vt5LWSfBWbHRYS1tmuYa8cyqScWJqdbm0yYhtIqfNNGEfpusEKTGt8fSc+X2mdWImXrSwoCdlggnEyvCgU57ImZqxH8zs3rY4SvY4Q= ; X-YMail-OSG: JUfDCN0VM1mNxskRvJiJ3lN0IFk1wYvcuUDl0B0MUlUtq_QkhWRdbr0EnTUDlt0mAx2ZPYOGpMWwVfVzTw8WmrpH_pboG9gfwklVSPHJMHmYqLCVtJ40xZJFFPH6KYDIj6YpO8Ko246CfeI- Message-ID: <45F5D3ED.2010207@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:27:57 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Negentropy - honed to a point References: <45F58192.9040401@pacbell.net> <6lhbv29cv13p8npmnet27h60e35fsetj91@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <6lhbv29cv13p8npmnet27h60e35fsetj91@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73670 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> However, Graneau et al. have shown that lowly water, at lest some types >> of H2O, *does* have an unexplained energy component which can be >> released. One of their papers also appears in "Infinite Energy". > Since they use high voltage electrical discharges to accomplish this (AFAIK), it > seems to me that their results can adequately be explained by Hydrinos, I was not trying to explain Graneau's findings, so much as to suggest that they have produced repeatable, believable results which are unexplained, and greatly in need of more R&D. They think that the excess energy in water is derived from solar - and that seems likely. Instead of supporting this work, in our beloved USA -- it is deemed wiser to grant big oil, like Exxon, massive tax-breaks to go along with their obscene profits, and to support dead-end wasteful spending on hot fusion instead. Go figure. And any rate, if hydrinos are involved in the Graneau results, which is also the most likely explantion IMHO based on what we know - then there is no great conflict with your view, except that they are natural, solar-derived, and brought in with the solar wind - which is why they turn up in rain water, which gives the best results in that experiment. We may never know the answer, if big-oil has its way and can keep putting its minions in high office. Jones BTW Exxon has been posting the highest quarterly profits in history - why do they need tax breaks ? How long before they too can move corporate offices to Dubai to escape congressional scrutiny? $10.71 billion for the fourth quarter of 2005 and $36.13 billion for the full year. If they had been forced to pay half of that for alternative R&D ... Oh never mind. It is too painful too imagine the extent of our lost opportunities recently - to change the world for the better. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 22:30:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CMU8Yg010442; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:30:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CMU7kd010426; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:30:07 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:30:07 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <139f01c764f5$fdf7d070$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:30:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CMU5qw010406 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73671 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, you would have if you had looked carefully Terry. As recently as today, I admitted humbly I had been wrong in stating that ozone was not deadly. I am the humblest person you can imagine, I even go out of my way to point out my errors even if noone else has found them or is likely to find them. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > On 3/12/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> Thanks Jed but IMHO > > 'H'??? I have seen no evidence of this. > > T > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 22:47:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CMlGIm014427; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:47:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CMlFTS014408; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:47:15 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:47:15 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <13a501c764f8$610960a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45F58192.9040401@pacbell.net> <6lhbv29cv13p8npmnet27h60e35fsetj91@4ax.com> <45F5D3ED.2010207@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Negentropy - honed to a point Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:47:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2CMlBbW014374 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73672 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I don't know the particular experiment you mention Jones, but what I do know for having done extensive work on the subject is that pulsed power such as can be found in electrical discharges, especially sparky ones, is extremely difficult to measure. I fully agree that much more of the big oil profits should go to alternative energy research, but I am not as certain as you are that hot fusion is dead-end wasteful spending. I believe it should have its chance, only other research should have its chance too which is not presently the case. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Negentropy - honed to a point > > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>> However, Graneau et al. have shown that lowly water, at lest some types >>> of H2O, *does* have an unexplained energy component which can be >>> released. One of their papers also appears in "Infinite Energy". > >> Since they use high voltage electrical discharges to accomplish this (AFAIK), it >> seems to me that their results can adequately be explained by Hydrinos, > > I was not trying to explain Graneau's findings, so much as to suggest > that they have produced repeatable, believable results which are > unexplained, and greatly in need of more R&D. They think that the excess > energy in water is derived from solar - and that seems likely. > > Instead of supporting this work, in our beloved USA -- it is deemed > wiser to grant big oil, like Exxon, massive tax-breaks to go along with > their obscene profits, and to support dead-end wasteful spending on hot > fusion instead. Go figure. > > And any rate, if hydrinos are involved in the Graneau results, which is > also the most likely explantion IMHO based on what we know - then there > is no great conflict with your view, except that they are natural, > solar-derived, and brought in with the solar wind - which is why they > turn up in rain water, which gives the best results in that experiment. > > We may never know the answer, if big-oil has its way and can keep > putting its minions in high office. > > Jones > > BTW Exxon has been posting the highest quarterly profits in history - > why do they need tax breaks ? How long before they too can move > corporate offices to Dubai to escape congressional scrutiny? > > $10.71 billion for the fourth quarter of 2005 and $36.13 billion for the > full year. If they had been forced to pay half of that for alternative > R&D ... Oh never mind. It is too painful too imagine the extent of our > lost opportunities recently - to change the world for the better. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 22:51:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CMpeY8016999; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:51:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CMpcsF016969; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:51:38 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:51:38 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HGK+/7TtXfgjkpOAX/LH9aOpOTHuanJjjP4iS+iHc5q4o++qih4+gY9+C0gL/sSi2mlE9LJMvAjxvfZqFanEfX/VBw+R6c1jzjT++dASzYERM/Em/WVlTMz9hhtVl/rzDaAulzyrtPZI7Yo/vJKgh7ux5df/6KccYRbiOU8N8mQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=V3/qOU2CriLB+RqWVcfNITpow5riUvAe4bA7iw62+B0RNYDZOtetapEERL0jEOgwHLH7dlLCuiCWDtYBOziwLOPM+1dA5NOEHqW0snwbFYtnxPdM1fM6q4INQ8DdfrMLWbqorLiWVtmoojD4A4o9jot78k2TWq/bOKxOwvdzeBg= Message-ID: <45F5E783.2050301@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:51:31 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: LED's capturing blackbody radiation - An Important Request References: <106001c76345$d8c6d0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F30330.3030000@ix.netcom.com> <107501c76360$349be270$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F33C5F.3070600@ix.netcom.com> <108301c76375$75dc8c20$3800a8c0@zothan> <10cb01c763ca$a1c563c0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F426D9.7000404@ix.netcom.com> <115501c763f7$e85e8910$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F45C1E.4060803@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F594CC.8040908@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <__pm0C.A.FJE.5ld9FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73673 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Paul Lowrance's message of Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:58:36 -0800: > Hi Paul, > [snip] >> your LED46 generates a lot of noise. If your LED generates a lot of voltage >> noise then a great deal of physicists around the world that I'm in contact with >> and I would purchase the LED's. > [snip] > If this appeal doesn't work, then you might have more luck purchasing a few LEDs > and sending them free of charge to researchers who you believe might be inclined > to make the necessary measurements. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk That should work. You have the right idea. For some time I've had a few experiments that interest a small percentage of scientists *if* they can see it, touch it, tweak it, and play with it. That's a live demonstration, and really the only method that seems to work. Although a lot of physicists are skeptical since present experiments are very sensitive and difficult to replicate. What I'm now trying to accomplish are a new set of experiments extremely simple to replicate and far more convincing. This should improve the skeptic --> believer conversion rate in live demonstrations, but who knows what will happen online. I have my own theory what's happening in the online "free energy" community. Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 22:57:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CMvmB8019406; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:57:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CMvkqO019385; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:57:46 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:57:46 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <13b301c764f9$db192140$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:57:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CMviQF019365 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73674 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sure, but then the COP can be calculated from the energy measurements, since both input and output are measured over the same duration. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > Many CF researchers like to compare CF cells to a mini nuclear fission > reactor, but instead of fission process providing the "excess" heat, it is a > low temperature fusion process. This is why they tend not to be interested > in power measurements and focus on energy measurements instead. Basically, > this reflects the theoretical bias that cold fusion does not depend on any > LofT violations. Or to put it another way cold fusion is a process which > releases "stored" energy, instead of producing power from "nothing". > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Since you know them all and for a reason, a link to a CF paper describing a >> COP of the order that ED described (6) would be welcome Jed. TIA >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jed Rothwell" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >>> Edmund Storms wrote: >>> >>>> Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in >>>> excess of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement >>>> during such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a >>>> calorimeter with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed >>>> to maximize the efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio >>>> has no meaning. >>> >>> It has no meaning in the sense that it does not predict whether cold >>> fusion can be made practical. It tells us nothing about whether one >>> technique is more promising than another in the long term. However, a >>> high ratio does make the calorimetry easier. That is to say, it is >>> easier to measure 2.5 W with 5 W of electrolysis input than with 35 W >>> input. (The input power is sometimes called the "background," as in >>> "a 5 W background.") It resembles instrument noise in this respect, >>> except that electrolysis input is a deliberate and inescapable part >>> of the experiment. Gas loading and some other methods have no input >>> background power, so they are easier to confirm with a high s/n ratio. >>> >>> - Jed >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 23:04:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CN4dvT024030; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:04:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CN4bp0024010; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:04:37 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:04:37 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F5DD20.5070402@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:07:12 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73675 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As a cold fusion researcher, I can tell you that your opinion is not correct. First of all, cold fusion is only cold because the energy provided by a high temperature, as is necessary for hot fusion too work, is not needed for cold fusion. Second, cold fusion and hot fusion make energy by similar nuclear reactions. Third, we in cold fusion measure power. As I said before, we do not focus on COP because this is not an engineering program, but one trying to understand the phenomenon. Regards, Ed Harry Veeder wrote: > Many CF researchers like to compare CF cells to a mini nuclear fission > reactor, but instead of fission process providing the "excess" heat, it is a > low temperature fusion process. This is why they tend not to be interested > in power measurements and focus on energy measurements instead. Basically, > this reflects the theoretical bias that cold fusion does not depend on any > LofT violations. Or to put it another way cold fusion is a process which > releases "stored" energy, instead of producing power from "nothing". > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > >>Since you know them all and for a reason, a link to a CF paper describing a >>COP of the order that ED described (6) would be welcome Jed. TIA >> >>Michel >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jed Rothwell" >>To: >>Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:08 PM >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >> >>>Edmund Storms wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in >>>>excess of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement >>>>during such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a >>>>calorimeter with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed >>>>to maximize the efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio >>>>has no meaning. >>> >>>It has no meaning in the sense that it does not predict whether cold >>>fusion can be made practical. It tells us nothing about whether one >>>technique is more promising than another in the long term. However, a >>>high ratio does make the calorimetry easier. That is to say, it is >>>easier to measure 2.5 W with 5 W of electrolysis input than with 35 W >>>input. (The input power is sometimes called the "background," as in >>>"a 5 W background.") It resembles instrument noise in this respect, >>>except that electrolysis input is a deliberate and inescapable part >>>of the experiment. Gas loading and some other methods have no input >>>background power, so they are easier to confirm with a high s/n ratio. >>> >>>- Jed >>> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 23:32:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CNWEG7002008; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:32:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CNWCic001987; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:32:12 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:32:12 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TE0tkRs7MLaaL87DvNV9WPgeg5lRNrDTQzFwn320h59SFNjmV6YEOkGb4RTELGKri25JU0eCKo1Dn+Qu9DukLP5eG5WIWOH/hRka1WyKZ3Lc5QDellPqvedN3swTl32S4bKwUqGnoFkNOLx4ipO1fCGaXvHfCie6gLeTZacu5ok= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=RCNY621Pcqh68ibL9no/vOscagOTFppiVgtfaD8AhiRsyFW1KHoBsxb+udhUArIir9eco7Ouxi4Dw7ypdHAo6fOinqQUwDI1YDMEfTmRIkZfCJ1edjC2582MYc97TaEj5AnD09Z85y0hFVj9o0tfJj4v5rwNPqPe/DKW6IHz1r0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:32:02 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <139f01c764f5$fdf7d070$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <139f01c764f5$fdf7d070$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73676 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/12/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > Well, you would have if you had looked carefully Terry. As recently as today, I admitted humbly I had been wrong in stating that ozone was not deadly. I am the humblest person you can imagine, I even go out of my way to point out my errors even if noone else has found them or is likely to find them. Actually a humble person does not need to defend their "humbleness". BTW, I will be in Montreal this week with some extra time on my hands. Are you the Dr. MJ from there? If so, can you recommend how I might spend some spare time other than exploring the Raelean Compound that is up for sale? Thanks in advance, T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 23:55:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CNt62o018046; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:55:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CNt43n018016; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:55:04 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:55:03 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=XQhLQz+xTnjuXJojoP6cZtTquRWDoPyHSFETCjj3HSD5snuVHubBjTFdxRsxQu/qu+NoJ9X3UsnlR9Q69HF85raucSnypR0S8XCbP7biOPZnfoVvZ3EI3tzD/ZyjFs0OpNtl5KPaR29YFn2T3Y8/YYXm8Q/LQpidLzDnMD7xHuY= ; X-YMail-OSG: b8jd7AIVM1lS_i_CCE_9h61n4cTtwt2luzrQ7QRQqL3OvxSuSsVyziheZW2z7hrkqVccgFUQwaDYB39Hx8NO.QGen9E_GKkOtT0l69x0HReLiFvDdg786R_M80jfm8iAc4TfSViu9gdkYaQ- Message-ID: <45F5E856.8010206@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:55:02 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2CNt2AZ017996 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73677 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Clairvoyant Talking Head Status: O X-Status: There is an uproar rising among the conspiracy-theory-crowd over what is being labeled as yet another 9/11 smoking gun - but this time from across the Atlantic. Last week an independent researcher, reviewing video archives of the BBC's 9/11 coverage, divulged the earth-shaking incongruence. A BBC reporter in Manhattan - the lady-talking-head at the center of this forming vortex - as she was reading the news to Brits - with the WTC 7 building actually still standing behind her in the live feed - announced the collapse of the 47 story Building a over 22 minutes BEFORE the actual collapse! Wow. This building, WTC 7, is clearly visible, standing tall, as the reporter gestures to the live view through the window behind her (it is near the end of the video, so be patient). Then her live feed to England (evening News there) is mysterious clipped as the discovery becomes apparent - as if somebody in-the-know has realized the terrible mistake and that the script she had been given was a bit, shall we say- "premature." Despite the fact the Google has reportedly censored and removed the initial internet premier of this vid, removing it totally from their US website, several independent "mirrors" picked it up overseas. Here is one from the notorious conspiracy-monger named Alex Jones. Was this vid somehow "photoshopped"? http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/260207building7.htm Some may find this video simply bewildering (me) or a coincident and harmless mistake, since it is conceivable that they just got things a bit confused at the teleprompter. That kind of coincidence is hard to swallow, however, in the midst of the other inconsistencies which are reverberating louder and louder amongst a vocal minority, many of them (former) supporters of W. This is not partisan politics any more. You can be your own judge, as the only thing which is sure about this is that some Vo's will reject it out of hand, and will choose not to even watch it, since they do not "want to" believe the implications ... not unlike the genius Bob Park when handed peer-reviewed papers confirming cold fusion. Jones BTW - the BBC, when shown this, claim that they "lost" the official tapes of their 9/11 coverage, and that it is a "cock-up, not conspiracy." Not sure who they intend to finger as the bumbling rooster, as it is hard to deny something is seriously amiss here, if you can offer nothing official in response. Hmm... They just happened to lose their coverage of the most critical and historic event in the 21st century? Now that is harder to believe than that the video has been photoshopped. The BBC's general policy on media management states that the following components to be retained: · Two broadcast standard copies of all transmitted/published TV, Radio and BBCi output – one to be stored on a separate site as a master · One browse-quality version for research purposes, to protect the broadcast material · All supporting metadata to enable research and re-use · A selection of original (i.e. unedited) material for re-use/re-versioning purposes · Hardware/software/equipment to enable replay/transfer of the media Hmmm... come to think of it - Blair did seem to be in bed with W from day one. Absolutely zero hesitation on buying the war imperative. Is that because he had been forewarned of many details in advance? How could that have filtered over to the BBC so soon? Surely British pols do not trust the BEEB that much, to keep a secret, do they ?? The truth will "out" ... given enough time. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 23:59:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2CNww0J012718; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:58:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2CNwu2N012701; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:58:56 GMT Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:58:56 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <13e301c76502$6493b450$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312120032.0362a2e8@mindspring.com> <132801c764c3$62739210$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <139f01c764f5$fdf7d070$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:58:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2CNwsVY012677 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73678 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > On 3/12/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> Well, you would have if you had looked carefully Terry. As recently as today, I admitted humbly I had been wrong in stating that ozone was not deadly. I am the humblest person you can imagine, I even go out of my way to point out my errors even if noone else has found them or is likely to find them. > > Actually a humble person does not need to defend their "humbleness". Only when I am asked about it, otherwise I am quite humble about it. > BTW, I will be in Montreal this week with some extra time on my hands. > Are you the Dr. MJ from there? If so, can you recommend how I might > spend some spare time other than exploring the Raelean Compound that > is up for sale? No I am not him sorry, never been to Montreal. I am a real Frenchman, not a maple syrup drinking one with a funny accent living on an unhospitable continent :) Michel > > Thanks in advance, > > T > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 00:15:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D0FOEs028865; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:15:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D0FNU7028836; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:15:23 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:15:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VUr7LWDFpXiddYVhGJdun8eBJi4YBbtNiG1VAUyHocyz+i+Kk3GuSStL97+Ajt+rT8cG37KJpN6251UlCimCkpXUe/I+DZZVRmK7/E2u7sItBeDH13iXUHNA7quc/qZPGaBzl2hSlyw9ExwrHdyaCbgtL6zFOa/Pud75wZGOmMM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=L9za3UtVhnlhe+YddnySnHTYky8wHWe/rE330Dt7AUAPC8SIcYeRIhpghGDjxO6/5/I9ZNqAnXoGOshgyjKIZKOxmgk4A2M/f773XBwh6QPFa3ShDM1epPZ05TpSTgvQrp5MEM+fzkl3WHf6NdQzTtmpyXvpO7m6PY+UMD1ufXo= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:15:10 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Clairvoyant Talking Head In-Reply-To: <45F5E856.8010206@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45F5E856.8010206@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73679 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/12/07, Jones Beene wrote: > The truth will "out" ... given enough time. Hopefully it will be recognizable. Just to pheul your phire: http://www.conspiracy-times.com/content/view/30/1 Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 00:24:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D0Np42002700; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:23:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D0NnWB002677; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:23:49 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:23:49 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LdNg4S0791ATuxkaARcBi/rAvLSvJ9gsinwCbZh2lEssY2Ef6QzoqPRIuMaHjKAqZk9sAcB74clbuq11mKjtg15V0f9CrveyH35OaM1vXX14mf6X+ugp3Jhs+pSYaog9hWy9tOTvoLpfQOFFAPoYFX9Db1H20+pSDBzf86pAqw8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=U8Pkx3SbMorR6gs6UusoPtJ2qG9Jf39ad5y8Nszzrvc+/dKInycSbzjvbuA1jNTvEciBbGH6+7vwmJmCrYR7svLQlna2OWl4Jsy2K1rkNfRCJ61+h3xMchr2eW4acGGLOHZiJmEHFurcx2ZT5N6s6+CXahjko8fSL+gFtKMex2A= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:23:44 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <13e301c76502$6493b450$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <139f01c764f5$fdf7d070$3800a8c0@zothan> <13e301c76502$6493b450$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <9xuygB.A.vp.V8e9FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73680 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/12/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > No I am not him sorry, never been to Montreal. I am a real Frenchman, not a maple syrup drinking one with a funny accent living on an unhospitable continent :) \/,, ` "Alors, merde." -Transgenic orangutan in Michael Crighton's "Next". T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 00:41:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D0fbBI026032; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:41:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D0fVR9026009; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:41:31 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:41:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cTrjfAeGKIbf/h48Ws7fmk7qnWGOFgpkxNjxCK6Op0LrN7+/CbDPeL9YGUNZZ8H6j6Twjj89WiBt9LIuv2lqbG2R3ZFjElQNbYR3zeVDKyS4unFsj4SWvI/02I1GSMjISveFKS3SQvlzGrCSwOuK3m6EGIMcOeA7dRyoNYa1XAo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=W84rJg+3mxX+D5Nk7ecm9u0roWeu4WQeWPKxJFEUE/EWzfzGP28PgbLuPdCKZHxNpMcKYPP1YS5hVdxNzUar8lBinx99v2OCiqCkzH7WaxG5mFpXGJyPvw2bkN07o/DocjFllYkUzbNCL5UWrMh3jga0MotQ45miTksM/OheIMg= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:41:27 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <139f01c764f5$fdf7d070$3800a8c0@zothan> <13e301c76502$6493b450$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73681 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/12/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > -Transgenic orangutan in Michael Crighton's "Next". Crichton. Je ne peux pas orthographier . T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 00:49:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D0mmq2016759; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:48:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D0mk40016714; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:48:46 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:48:46 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <140a01c76509$5c69d820$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <12873381.1173737744369.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:48:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2D0miaM016620 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73682 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, who is humble too, wrote: >... So that was a dumb thing for me to say. Now, Edmund, could you please refrain your own humility and kindly recommend one of your F&P excess heat experimental papers? I am not familiar with F&P as you know. I am looking for good experimental papers on the subject, notably one of yours if you could advise me. Below is a list of those available in Jed's excellent library at LENR.org if I am not mistaken. --- Michel Storms, E. Measurement of Excess Heat from a Pons_Fleischmann Type Electrolytic Cell. in Third International Conference on Cold Fusion, "Frontiers of Cold Fusion". 1992. Nagoya Japan: Universal Academy Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan. Storms, E., Measurements of excess heat from a Pons-Fleischmann-type electrolytic cell using palladium sheet. Fusion Technol., 1993. 23: p. 230. Storms, E., How to produce the Pons-Fleischmann effect. Fusion Technol., 1996. 29: p. 261. Storms, E. Anomalous Heat Generated by Electrolysis Using a Palladium Cathode and Heavy Water. in American Physical Society. 1999. Atlanta, GA. Storms, E. Excess Power Production from Platinum Cathodes Using the Pons-Fleischmann Effect. in 8th International Conference on Cold Fusion. 2000. Lerici (La Spezia), Italy: Italian Physical Society, Bologna, Italy. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 01:17:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D1Hcft007495; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:17:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D1HWLD007435; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:17:32 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:17:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DzX02Q3V2fEwxflxM9NdAHovO6xv4DtUcQ+zpR7X9D83LIAcjslNJS21l53AyKDC6BaBIJWAWM31sxK/p4ipczLfMZ0NacflUmPL08YKW1HWkl1HyYNHFFBZ+nnvtceKwX9rgelCA6XhTTnrB+K45OCsfipP6Ee7b9yRuY5Bi1U= ; X-YMail-OSG: TQAqpVsVM1n5i68vJ3VZInogEoq.5p8kR2HN9NyGNgFPVJdDb65yORpawAmaghBYak76AdJK.6RNQ.4EASEVChWCchD2Ws1sU2N45DBLkNFJ5PtuYg26tqT3BOXk3PwnTuFxBr1.RJ0s0GY- Message-ID: <45F5FBAB.2050401@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:17:31 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2D1HV8T007416 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73683 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: UHE electrolysis Status: O X-Status: There must be "something in the air" in Texas, lending itself to ultra high efficiency electrolysis. This one is at .9 volts. http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7024.html "AirGen’s technology has the potential to replace conventional water electrolysis as the most prevalent method of hydrogen production not reliant on fossil fuels as the feedstock. The foundation of the patent-pending technology uniquely utilizes reactions catalyzed by nano-sized colloidal metal particles. In testing, both thermal and electrical energy sources have been used successfully to regenerate the metal electrodes. This regeneration feature is an important benefit of the technology and enables a closed loop system whereby the only consumables are water and energy." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 01:24:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D1OScU010228; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:24:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D1ORcX010212; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:24:27 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:24:27 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <141901c7650e$58d414f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312141234.036f5118@mindspring.com> <135901c764dd$0cb7ca70$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <139f01c764f5$fdf7d070$3800a8c0@zothan> <13e301c76502$6493b450$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:24:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2D1OQnb010191 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73684 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Didn't you mean "Merde, alors" (expressing one's surprise) rather? "Merde, alors, tu n'es pas canadien?" "Alors, merde" is generally used to express impatience: "Alors, merde, ça vient?" Michel Jullian, "Of the proper use of the word 'merde'" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > On 3/12/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> No I am not him sorry, never been to Montreal. I am a real Frenchman, not a maple syrup drinking one with a funny accent living on an unhospitable continent :) > > \/,, > ` > > "Alors, merde." > > -Transgenic orangutan in Michael Crighton's "Next". > > T > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 02:25:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D2Pb89030960; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:25:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D2PZOw030943; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:25:35 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:25:35 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=egR06cX3YhIluE1ssdstuIlgTSBgubRQ+S6jWMpUEpevcTwwok1UZ0BZTMZoxWar1ngmaVXFpYBOOPJKD/BuS3IOFMLrD0R4bfbIEJKFC5DfrUVzIS0VuSahOtbiUPyZMOPYGHG7lFEn7Ca3gRHRpzFd9MKkZ+SsrmXCJPqzZD0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cSKfVKMtnIzw30f8PaslAF/1qFBAIpEZCK3vUOhrUxkreZ+T/LSPKLiETE21LV3KuTGltNR1pcJJ1B3VY6GGHKhwyGsp0aLnm3gxYsYgdOp6Olzn+bVYcLWlrrh2Css1EXSJKulX6giEdO9cmbLsQR2shQ/mVRSUUtsppD/4Ugo= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:25:32 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <141901c7650e$58d414f0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline References: <25201365.1173474461107.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312153749.03650e20@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312155926.03637300@mindspring.com> <136f01c764ec$785563f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <139f01c764f5$fdf7d070$3800a8c0@zothan> <13e301c76502$6493b450$3800a8c0@zothan> <141901c7650e$58d414f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2D2PWHL030919 Resent-Message-ID: <4cMBq.A.bjH.fug9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73685 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/12/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > "Alors, merde" is generally used to express impatience: "Alors, merde, ça vient?" As stated, a quotation from a book. T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 02:32:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D2Wdge019577; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:32:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D2WadY019559; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:32:36 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:32:36 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004201c76517$d7909b20$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <45F5E856.8010206@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:32:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <3HGvP.A.dxE.D1g9FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73686 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OT: Clairvoyant Talking Head Status: O X-Status: Howdy Jones, The three views of happenings at 911 have been solidified. One view believes conspiracy One view believes the government report One view cannot decide. Beer drinkers at the Dime Box saloon don't care what happened. They can buy a tale of a 110 floor building pancaking down in 8-10 seconds. After enough beers some can buy TWO 110 floor buildings pancaking... but all the beer in the world ain't gonna convince 'em that THREE buildings did a "Humpty Dumpty" when the third building didn't even get hit with a Boeing jet. Course, drunks just like to argue and they don't matter to politicos but even a drunk, like a blind hog, can root up an acorn on occasion. For certain.. Halliburton announced today that they are moving their headquarters to Dubai from Houston.. Hmmm. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 02:39:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D2dVKd005777; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:39:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D2dU4Z005763; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:39:30 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:39:30 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:38:59 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Clairvoyant Talking Head In-reply-to: <004201c76517$d7909b20$c905a8c0@xptower> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73687 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: > > For certain.. Halliburton announced today that they are moving their > headquarters to Dubai from Houston.. Hmmm. > > Richard > Dubya's Dubai. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 04:30:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D4U1WR013493; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:30:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D4KcQK010924; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 04:20:38 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 04:20:38 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:18:52 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Frolov's "energy machine" In-reply-to: <45EA5A41.5040306@usfamily.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200703122318.52403.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <45EA5A41.5040306@usfamily.net> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73688 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 04 March 2007 00:33, thomas malloy wrote: > Standing Bear wrote: > >Hmmm...let the buyer beware. Say Alex manages to sell the >big casino, > > the one for over half a billion..thats billion >with a 'b' sports fans.., > > I would think that any buyer with >over half a billion simoleans to blow > > would be more than >rich enough to have the connections to enact serious > > and >ininvestigated 'retribution' on any who crossed him or her. > > Bear, I have no idea what your talking about. First of all, nobody with $1 > billion would give it to Alexander. However, IMHO, if The Russian Science > Fiction Author were ever to get his hands on $1 billion, he could buy > plenty of protection from the Russian Mafia, the one headed by Putin. > Russia has three generals who have never been defeated, distance, mud and > cold. > Please read the guy's post, and the referred to web sites on related posts. I don't have time now to look back, but I am sure I have them yet. Have very many old posts. Like this site and all the posters on it. Keeps life interesting. I did find a web site claiming to have these devices for sale. As for ole uncle Lubyanka Vladimir being a 'wise guy', I will leave that for those who claim special inside knowledge. I do know that 'Comrade Putin' saved thousands of apartment dwellers in Vladivostok a miserable death some years back when some local crooks were denying them heat and selling the fuel to heat their apartment blocks on the black market. As for Russia never being invaded, look up the Ghengis Khan family tree and the reign of the Golden Horde in present day Ukraina and regions east. Tamerlane did a fair job of carving up parts of Eastern Russia and Kazakhstan as well. Long before Borat got there. Cheers Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 05:25:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D5PZnD026602; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:25:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D5PWdH026514; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:25:32 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:25:31 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:24:59 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2D5PTog026443 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73689 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Modified Double-Slit Experiment Status: O X-Status: More detail in this pdf file: http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0702188 Harry ------------ http://www.physorg.com/news92937814.html Physicists Modify Double-Slit Experiment to Confirm Einstein's Belief  Work completed by physics professors at Rowan University shows that light is made of particles and waves, a finding that refutes a common belief held for about 80 years. Shahriar S. Afshar, the visiting professor who is currently at Boston's Institute for Radiation-Induced Mass Studies (IRIMS), led a team, including Rowan physics professors Drs. Eduardo Flores and Ernst Knoesel and student Keith McDonald, that proved Afshar¹s original claims, which were based on a series of experiments he had conducted several years ago. An article on the work titled "Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality" recently published in Foundations of Physics, a prestigious, refereed academic journal, supports Albert Einstein¹s long-debated belief that quantum physics is incomplete. For eight decades the scientific community generally had supported Niels Bohr¹s ideas commonly known as the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. In 1927, in his ³Principle of Complementarity,² he asserted that in any experiment light shows only one aspect at a time, either it behaves as a wave or as a particle. Einstein was deeply troubled by that principle, since he could not accept that any external measurement would prevent light to reveal its full dual nature, according to Afshar. The fundamental problem, however, seemed to be that one has to destroy the photon in order to measure either aspects of it. Then, once destroyed, there is no light left to measure the other aspect. ³About 150 years ago, light was thought to behave solely as a wave similar to sound and water waves. In 1905, Einstein observed that light might also act as being made out of small particles. Since then physicists found it difficult understanding the full nature of light since in some situations it acts like a particle and in others like a wave,² Flores said. ³This dual nature of light led to the insight that all fundamental physical objects include a wave and a particle aspect, even electrons, protons and students.² Afshar conducted his initial theoretical and experimental work at IRIMS, where he served the privately funded organization as a principal investigator. He later continued his work at the Harvard University Physics Department as a research scholar, where he was able to verify his initial findings before going to Rowan. In 2004, Afshar claimed that he had devised an experiment that challenged Bohr¹s principle of complementarity. The Rowan team was formed to verify Afshar¹s claim at extremely low light intensity levels. Afshar, Flores and Knoesel conducted experiments at Rowan that validated Afshar¹s initial findings for single photons. In this modified double-slit experiment, a laser beam hits a screen with two small pinholes. As a particle, light goes through one of the pinholes. Through a lens system, the light is then imaged onto two detectors, where a certain detector measures only the photons, which went through a particular pinhole. In this way, Afshar verified the particle nature of light. As a wave, light goes through both pinholes and forms a so-called interference pattern of bright and dark fringes. ³Afshar¹s experiment consists of the clever idea of putting small absorbing wires at the exact position of the dark interference fringes, where you expect no light,² Knoesel said. ³He then observed that the wires do not change the total light intensity, so there are really dark fringes at the position of the wires. That proves that light also behaves as a wave in the same experiment in which it behaves as a particle.² The findings of the Afshar experiment were published online on January 23 in the Foundations of Physics, an international journal devoted to the conceptual bases and fundamental theories of modern physics, biophysics and cosmology, with several distinguished Nobel laureates on its editorial board. The print version was published in the February 2007 edition and is now available in libraries throughout the world. ³The important new contribution is that light carries both wave and particle aspects at all times, and future experiments will further clarify the nature of each component.² Afshar said. Flores continued, ³It is interesting to note that even after 80 years we can still gain a better understanding about the nature of light using refined measurement techniques and creative ideas and therefore are able add to the vast insights of former scientists.² Citation: Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality, Shahriar S. Afshar, Eduardo Flores, Keith F. McDonald and Ernst Knoesel, Foundations of Physics, 23 January 2007, DOI 10.1007/s10701-006-9102-8 Source: Rowan University From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 05:47:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D5lUYI019759; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:47:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D5lSic019719; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:47:28 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:47:28 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:46:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <45F5DD20.5070402@ix.netcom.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73690 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What makes you sure that COP measurements are not vital to understanding the phenomena? Harry Edmund Storms wrote: > As a cold fusion researcher, I can tell you that your opinion is not > correct. First of all, cold fusion is only cold because the energy > provided by a high temperature, as is necessary for hot fusion too work, > is not needed for cold fusion. Second, cold fusion and hot fusion make > energy by similar nuclear reactions. Third, we in cold fusion measure > power. As I said before, we do not focus on COP because this is not an > engineering program, but one trying to understand the phenomenon. > > Regards, > Ed > > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Many CF researchers like to compare CF cells to a mini nuclear fission >> reactor, but instead of fission process providing the "excess" heat, it is a >> low temperature fusion process. This is why they tend not to be interested >> in power measurements and focus on energy measurements instead. Basically, >> this reflects the theoretical bias that cold fusion does not depend on any >> LofT violations. Or to put it another way cold fusion is a process which >> releases "stored" energy, instead of producing power from "nothing". >> >> Harry >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>> Since you know them all and for a reason, a link to a CF paper describing a >>> COP of the order that ED described (6) would be welcome Jed. TIA >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jed Rothwell" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:08 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>> >>> >>> >>>> Edmund Storms wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in >>>>> excess of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement >>>>> during such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a >>>>> calorimeter with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed >>>>> to maximize the efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio >>>>> has no meaning. >>>> >>>> It has no meaning in the sense that it does not predict whether cold >>>> fusion can be made practical. It tells us nothing about whether one >>>> technique is more promising than another in the long term. However, a >>>> high ratio does make the calorimetry easier. That is to say, it is >>>> easier to measure 2.5 W with 5 W of electrolysis input than with 35 W >>>> input. (The input power is sometimes called the "background," as in >>>> "a 5 W background.") It resembles instrument noise in this respect, >>>> except that electrolysis input is a deliberate and inescapable part >>>> of the experiment. Gas loading and some other methods have no input >>>> background power, so they are easier to confirm with a high s/n ratio. >>>> >>>> - Jed >>>> >>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 05:52:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D5qMoV022527; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:52:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D5qL7H022513; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:52:21 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 05:52:21 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:51:49 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <13b301c764f9$db192140$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73691 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes...assuming they are measured over the same period of time. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Sure, but then the COP can be calculated from the energy measurements, since > both input and output are measured over the same duration. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:18 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > >> Many CF researchers like to compare CF cells to a mini nuclear fission >> reactor, but instead of fission process providing the "excess" heat, it is a >> low temperature fusion process. This is why they tend not to be interested >> in power measurements and focus on energy measurements instead. Basically, >> this reflects the theoretical bias that cold fusion does not depend on any >> LofT violations. Or to put it another way cold fusion is a process which >> releases "stored" energy, instead of producing power from "nothing". >> >> Harry >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> Since you know them all and for a reason, a link to a CF paper describing a >>> COP of the order that ED described (6) would be welcome Jed. TIA >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jed Rothwell" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:08 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>> >>> >>>> Edmund Storms wrote: >>>> >>>>> Excess energy from electrolysis is seldom over unity. Energy in >>>>> excess of that applied to the cell is the only important measurement >>>>> during such studies. My latest excess energy is about 2.5 W for a >>>>> calorimeter with an error of about 25 mW. The cell was not designed >>>>> to maximize the efficiency. Therefore, the Power out/Power in ratio >>>>> has no meaning. >>>> >>>> It has no meaning in the sense that it does not predict whether cold >>>> fusion can be made practical. It tells us nothing about whether one >>>> technique is more promising than another in the long term. However, a >>>> high ratio does make the calorimetry easier. That is to say, it is >>>> easier to measure 2.5 W with 5 W of electrolysis input than with 35 W >>>> input. (The input power is sometimes called the "background," as in >>>> "a 5 W background.") It resembles instrument noise in this respect, >>>> except that electrolysis input is a deliberate and inescapable part >>>> of the experiment. Gas loading and some other methods have no input >>>> background power, so they are easier to confirm with a high s/n ratio. >>>> >>>> - Jed >>>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 06:00:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D60LL3003139; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:00:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D60KK0003120; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 06:00:20 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 06:00:20 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:59:48 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73692 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > John Berry wrote: > >> Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these >> others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact -- >> that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about >> cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have >> made another logical error. See: >> >> http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html >> >> >> No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority >> would you? > > No, I never do. I had excellent teachers and I learned to avoid all > of the common logical errors of this type. I often point to experts, > and I defer to their authority, but this is NOT an appeal to > authority. There is a great deal of confusion about this, so I > suggest you read the Nizkor site definition carefully. > > To simplify, an "appeal to authority" fallacy should more properly > called "an appeal to false authority." That is, a citation of a > person who thinks he is an authority, or claims he is, but who > actually is not. For example, suppose we are discussing > electrochemistry and you cite an opinion or statement by Bockris. You > have made a good point, because Bockris understands electrochemistry > and his pronouncements on the subject carry weight. If I try to > counter you by citing statements by Gary Taubes (from his book), that > would be an appeal to authority fallacy because even though Taubes > claims he knows this subject, he does not. It is not just their authority they want you to accept. It is the authority of their holy scripture, i.e. "the laws of physics". Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 23:53:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D6qvuU029493; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:52:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D6qt6B029482; Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:52:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:52:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:52:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Outrage !! In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73693 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > >> People will starve, riot, the cities will burn. and engagements will be called off. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 00:35:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D7ZJCM004828; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:35:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D7ZDNO004807; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:35:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:35:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=qpGrvOWrsKzLs79HaCueOfjReaz6NYX/UPRLgPKVsT9LpuUp1fyCoMRl44J93T2x1TkHN1ICmPUVfi2crt7twJz8isZ3JfK8ijWrQqRDXKDat0k6kbiWAFpY8/xji+vdYa0uderBMYrvO4sI/32GlVj9mDRcULhc0QwjqKzWZSE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=TjbFWXz1LLGuoXebAK3Mx6I2cedB9bBtUD7cQT1IjFMYGl3BWMs6f98bZBBwH6EnVtqlnqamSf+QC3JQCVCxf/hWFKfmYFp7XxBRa4CfC6GdQRSWxceDr8KwZR1G/a3BuryOYWEIfoK4hhbeXozqRuxga9lrzxadfKMY1BwtLMA= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:35:11 -0500 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25507_3461115.1173771311837" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73694 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: to Jed Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_25507_3461115.1173771311837 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo and Jed, Either you you do not read what you write ...OR You are reporting matters outof context.... [a] In an aqueous electrolytic system the anode and the cathode are not supposed to touch. [b] what the Bleet Hawses are you trying to communicate...??? JHS > I think Biberian is still pursuing this. His biggest problem is that > the anode and cathode heat up and lose contact. In other words, they > do not touch, which causes a failure -- the opposite from liquid electrolysis. > > - Jed ------=_Part_25507_3461115.1173771311837 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
 
  Dear Vo and  Jed,
 
   Either  you you do  not read what you write ...OR
    You  are  reporting matters outof context....
 
[a]  In an aqueous electrolytic system the anode and the cathode are not
supposed to touch.
[b]  what the Bleet  Hawses are you   trying to communicate...???
 
       JHS
 

> I think Biberian is still pursuing this. His biggest problem is that
> the anode and cathode heat up and lose contact. In other words, they
> do not touch, which causes a failure -- the opposite from liquid electrolysis.
>
> - Jed
 
------=_Part_25507_3461115.1173771311837-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 00:53:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D7qxNR014563; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:53:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D7qwxF014549; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:52:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:52:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=PuyrrCbz8/RZlApJWe2lQgUrPO4yCmrhDrVMTeYKuliqjWV8ZDdUT2ZPlH6/FO/stJtYHF0sb4SwcozLj5BfxsXRfJfuNjbL5/UUg6nWRi8jkmplAMnhwhXGHvHY0tfEGxq/fFaE9hXc2DkFxKjxGLgQECo4khORZlFcl0DYYmY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=FKHvHVgNrA9MbggaiUw5mZdYwJJcU21nCClibTyfH/lYm5ie+uBmnA8u4ce1I3xNDvNe5oNx6kQpH1Eg0xxidAG7pfze0uHc3cEeARL+daCYCbD4feH1KIiT7gFpfbDwqPZ/K8MYoVcrcpfzaz9UsALngmjsylboFTZ8qkVD5Ck= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:52:55 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_19539_14502796.1173772375323" References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73695 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_19539_14502796.1173772375323 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/13/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > >Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these > >others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact -- > >that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about > >cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have > >made another logical error. See: > > > >http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html > > > > > >No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority > >would you? > > No, I never do. Oh really, so no matter what the physical incontrovertible evidence that exists you know that 911 was not an inside job and the building wasn't outfitted with explosives because some experts (that for all you know may have been used to pull off such a job or scared off or simply wrong being outside their experience) said so (you stated as much), no not all experts just some of them. And that's not an appeal to authority? I don't need to read your referenced authority to know what an appeal to authority is. I had excellent teachers and I learned to avoid all > of the common logical errors of this type. I often point to experts, > and I defer to their authority, but this is NOT an appeal to > authority. There is a great deal of confusion about this, so I > suggest you read the Nizkor site definition carefully. > > To simplify, an "appeal to authority" fallacy should more properly > called "an appeal to false authority." That is, a citation of a > person who thinks he is an authority, or claims he is, but who > actually is not. For example, suppose we are discussing > electrochemistry and you cite an opinion or statement by Bockris. You > have made a good point, because Bockris understands electrochemistry > and his pronouncements on the subject carry weight. If I try to > counter you by citing statements by Gary Taubes (from his book), that > would be an appeal to authority fallacy because even though Taubes > claims he knows this subject, he does not. > > Not only should the person in question be an actual authority, he > should offer a cogent explanation for his views. If Bockris were to > say, "I'm right and I do not need to tell you why" he would be > abusing his authority. (He would never do that, but some other > experts do.) Quoting Nizkor: > > > An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: > > Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. > Person A makes claim C about subject S. > Therefore, C is true. > > This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a > legitimate authority on the subject. A ha, so now who is an authority on pancaking skyscrapers? No one. Plus you insist that if the authority is valid then no further claim need be investigated because no matter the evidence the authority can not be wrong. The error is that you are making the authority flawless, has valid authorities ever been wrong before? Should we place the opinion of an authority however valid above incontrovertible fact? Apparently yes! More formally, if person A is > not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument > will be fallacious. So if someone has always carried out demolitions in a certain way because that's the standard way to do it, and then they witness something which is either a covert demolition or an accident, forgetting that they may be in on it (You would need experts on demolition) or under threat, forgetting that the subject may have some emotionalism for them or finally scared to speak such a controversial truth they still are not experts on covert demolitions or unusual accidents or pancake collapses. Therefore they are not authorities in such a case. This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is > not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact > that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any > justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact > that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any > rational reason to accept the claim as true. If the claim came without any evidence. If there is evidence however then everything changes because evidence speaks louder and more truthfully that all experts put together. . . . > > Nizkor make other important clarifications, such as: "Determining > whether or not a person has the needed degree of expertise can often > be very difficult. . . ." I suggest you read this carefully. Indeed, your experts are not experts in this case. Please note that logical errors of this type are well established. > Most were discovered and named by ancient Greek and Roman > philosophers. There is no point to making mistakes such as "An Appeal > To Authority" (or "Ad Verecundiam" as they said in Ancient Rome ), > "Slippery Slope" or "Appeal to Tradition" in a scientific discussion. > It is like making an elementary arithmetic error. You can easily > avoid these things with a little practice. But if you are biased against a certain conclusion you will hold on to an appeal to authority as it is all you have left. (you are making an appeal to authority which is an error, saying 'my authority is real' does nothing to enhance your argument) BTW, did you get this email?: Ok, so the squib explosions that can be plainly seen and heard (and sounds recorded) and which burnt people and thew them around, and went off before the collapse and thermite detected and plainly visible before WTC7 begins to collapse, buildings pancaking at freefall speeds!, the people doing work on the building before 911 (an unprecedented power down) and removing the bomb sniffing dogs there after, the pod (or a never before seen optical illusion on a plane?), the flash in all videos of both planes just before they hit (another optical illusion?), the total lack of evidence of a plane crash at Pennsylvania or even a drop of blood, everyone smelling cordite at the Pentagon, the calls that couldn't have been made (and the unreal conversations claimed: Hello mom, this is your son, Mark Bingham, You Believe me don't you? (that's how every phone conversation goes with my mother) The fact that the FBI admitted that the hijacker's ID were stolen and Arabs weren't involved and the (many identified) were still alive. (There were also no Arab names on the manifest, Autopsies showed no Arabs) The plane the Mayor claim landed, everyone was told to evacuate the airport (had to walk) and the flights either weren't scheduled or were at the wrong gates to begin with. (and the pilot of one of the planes just happened to be involved with a simulation of just such an event! What are the odds!) The patently fake Osama that looks nothing like Osama and uses the wrong hand to eat. (Osama is a lefty) He already denied it! Ok, so none of this is able to even warrant you to looking into the evidence (as you show abundant ignorance of the position you are fighting against), well just look at this video: http://philjayhan.wordpress.com/ You can plainly see WTC7 (the Solomon Brothers Building) in the background as they report it has fallen, they were 20 minutes early!!! This is not the first time, one of the well known JFK facts is that New Zealand newspapers reported stuff they couldn't have possibly known yet, again we see the media ahead of the game. The result of a presidential election was printed beforehand too once. No, obviously this won't convince you, indeed I had asked and you admitted that no evidence possibly could, at least don't pretend you position is supported by logic or evidence. This isn't something I want to believe, this isn't a political statement and it says nothing about what one expects of the future, it has nothing to do with what is easy to believe or comfortable, it has nothing to do with patriotism (well I'm a kiwi so obviously not) or what someone thinks of right .vs left or capitalist .vs communist or any other issue that may be brought up, it's about one thing, the evidence. You can't brush it aside by giving anecdotes about cold fusion, Japan or politicians. You are welcome to close your eyes, cover your ears and hum if you wish though... ------=_Part_19539_14502796.1173772375323 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/13/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

>Dyson also does not believe in cold fusion. I do not know about these
>others. But it is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact --
>that is, scientific evidence. If these people deny the facts about
>cold fusion or global warming, and you beleive them, you have have
>made another logical error. See:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
>
>
>No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority
>would you?

No, I never do.

Oh really, so no matter what the physical incontrovertible evidence that exists you know that 911 was not an inside job and the building wasn't outfitted with explosives because some experts (that for all you know may have been used to pull off such a job or scared off or simply wrong being outside their experience) said so (you stated as much), no not all experts just some of them.

And that's not an appeal to authority?
I don't need to read your referenced authority to know what an appeal to authority is.

I had excellent teachers and I learned to avoid all
of the common logical errors of this type. I often point to experts,
and I defer to their authority, but this is NOT an appeal to
authority. There is a great deal of confusion about this, so I
suggest you read the Nizkor site definition carefully.

To simplify, an "appeal to authority" fallacy should more properly
called "an appeal to false authority." That is, a citation of a
person who thinks he is an authority, or claims he is, but who
actually is not. For example, suppose we are discussing
electrochemistry and you cite an opinion or statement by Bockris. You
have made a good point, because Bockris understands electrochemistry
and his pronouncements on the subject carry weight. If I try to
counter you by citing statements by Gary Taubes (from his book), that
would be an appeal to authority fallacy because even though Taubes
claims he knows this subject, he does not.

Not only should the person in question be an actual authority, he
should offer a cogent explanation for his views. If Bockris were to
say, "I'm right and I do not need to tell you why" he would be
abusing his authority. (He would never do that, but some other
experts do.) Quoting Nizkor:


An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.

This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a
legitimate authority on the subject.

A ha, so now who is an authority on pancaking skyscrapers?
No one.
Plus you insist that if the authority is valid then no further claim need be investigated because no matter the evidence the authority can not be wrong.

The error is that you are making the authority flawless, has valid authorities ever been wrong before?
Should we place the opinion of an authority however valid above incontrovertible fact?

Apparently yes!

More formally, if person A is
not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument
will be fallacious.

So if someone has always carried out demolitions in a certain way because that's the standard way to do it, and then they witness something which is either a covert demolition or an accident, forgetting that they may be in on it (You would need experts on demolition) or under threat, forgetting that the subject may have some emotionalism for them or finally scared to speak such a controversial truth they still are not experts on covert demolitions or unusual accidents or pancake collapses.

Therefore they are not authorities in such a case.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is
not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact
that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any
justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact
that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any
rational reason to accept the claim as true.

If the claim came without any evidence.
If there is evidence however then everything changes because evidence speaks louder and more truthfully that all experts put together.

  . . .

Nizkor make other important clarifications, such as: "Determining
whether or not a person has the needed degree of expertise can often
be very difficult. . . ." I suggest you read this carefully.

Indeed, your experts are not experts in this case.

Please note that logical errors of this type are well established.
Most were discovered and named by ancient Greek and Roman
philosophers. There is no point to making mistakes such as "An Appeal
To Authority" (or "Ad Verecundiam" as they said in Ancient Rome ),
"Slippery Slope" or "Appeal to Tradition" in a scientific discussion.
It is like making an elementary arithmetic error. You can easily
avoid these things with a little practice.

But if you are biased against a certain conclusion you will hold on to an appeal to authority as it is all you have left. (you are making an appeal to authority which is an error, saying 'my authority is real' does nothing to enhance your argument)

BTW, did you get this email?:

Ok, so the squib explosions that can be plainly seen and heard (and sounds recorded) and which burnt people and thew them around, and went off before the collapse and thermite detected and plainly visible before WTC7 begins to collapse, buildings pancaking at freefall speeds!, the people doing work on the building before 911 (an unprecedented power down) and removing the bomb sniffing dogs there after, the pod (or a never before seen optical illusion on a plane?), the flash in all videos of both planes just before they hit (another optical illusion?), the total lack of evidence of a plane crash at Pennsylvania or even a drop of blood, everyone smelling cordite at the Pentagon, the calls that couldn't have been made (and the unreal conversations claimed: Hello mom, this is your son, Mark Bingham, You Believe me don't you? (that's how every phone conversation goes with my mother)
The fact that the FBI admitted that the hijacker's ID were stolen and Arabs weren't involved and the (many identified) were still alive. (There were also no Arab names on the manifest, Autopsies showed no Arabs)
The plane the Mayor claim landed, everyone was told to evacuate the airport (had to walk) and the flights either weren't scheduled or were at the wrong gates to begin with. (and the pilot of one of the planes just happened to be involved with a simulation of just such an event! What are the odds!)
The patently fake Osama that looks nothing like Osama and uses the wrong hand to eat. (Osama is a lefty)
He already denied it!

Ok, so none of this is able to even warrant you to looking into the evidence (as you show abundant ignorance of the position you are fighting against), well just look at this video:
http://philjayhan.wordpress.com/

You can plainly see WTC7 (the Solomon Brothers Building) in the background as they report it has fallen, they were 20 minutes early!!!

This is not the first time, one of the well known JFK facts is that New Zealand newspapers reported stuff they couldn't have possibly known yet, again we see the media ahead of the game.
The result of a presidential election was printed beforehand too once.

No, obviously this won't convince you, indeed I had asked and you admitted that no evidence possibly could, at least don't pretend you position is supported by logic or evidence.

This isn't something I want to believe, this isn't a political statement and it says nothing about what one expects of the future, it has nothing to do with what is easy to believe or comfortable, it has nothing to do with patriotism (well I'm a kiwi so obviously not) or what someone thinks of right .vs left or capitalist .vs communist or any other issue that may be brought up, it's about one thing, the evidence.

You can't brush it aside by giving anecdotes about cold fusion, Japan or politicians.

You are welcome to close your eyes, cover your ears and hum if you wish though...



------=_Part_19539_14502796.1173772375323-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 01:06:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D86C86022053; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:06:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D86Bh6022045; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:06:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 01:06:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=IER2u7R3wBsZuC6fQShQ/8HvADiSmxvqQHbnepybOWJEOORxAdOShwia/C1K2Ic/p1zw65sR5UAnNAHgD9Fhl3ha6HaoCxa/W+1AAbTaNiseGAGk7VP+y9sR2PsjwBnf9BBuV0CqfqO49yzRmHQo2EmQe1xCsdo307P+ud3Td1Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=SypdOLZ0sr8IcTF4DzRu1wYe9JxjkeCKKZKU6hhuVlrK7TwPmQJFk12TvL6LWwZqpjUgA+nPGnKOSRzvSvOEWvVexRXbbQCw2Fiaoo/JU53WoWbcLUNtHoSpaXW3wHED1NAx/v2DwieymsuX/1t9o0tnNTlB/WqnmLeoGS3AvHs= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 03:06:07 -0500 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25803_25399850.1173773167473" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73696 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_25803_25399850.1173773167473 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vortex and Jed, I post a 'cut-and-paste' from one of Jed's posts..... NB......please see comment, below... > >No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority >would you? No, I never do. I had excellent teachers and I learned to avoid all of the common logical errors of this type. I often point to experts, and I defer to their authority, but this is NOT an appeal to authority. There is a great deal of confusion about this, so I suggest you read the Nizkor site definition carefully. To simplify, an "appeal to authority" fallacy should more properly called "an appeal to false authority." That is, a citation of a person who thinks he is an authority, or claims he is, but who actually is not. For example, suppose we are discussing electrochemistry and you cite an opinion or statement by Bockris. You have made a good point, because Bockris understands electrochemistry and his pronouncements on the subject carry weight. If I try to counter you by citing statements by Gary Taubes (from his book), that would be an appeal to authority fallacy because even though Taubes claims he knows this subject, he does not. Not only should the person in question be an actual authority, he should offer a cogent explanation for his views. If Bockris were to say, "I'm right and I do not need to tell you why" he would be abusing his authority. (He would never do that, but some other experts do.) Quoting Nizkor: An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true. This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious. This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true. . . . Nizkor make other important clarifications, such as: "Determining whether or not a person has the needed degree of expertise can often be very difficult. . . ." I suggest you read this carefully. Please note that logical errors of this type are well established. Most were discovered and named by ancient Greek and Roman philosophers. There is no point to making mistakes such as "An Appeal To Authority" (or "Ad Verecundiam" as they said in Ancient Rome ), "Slippery Slope" or "Appeal to Tradition" in a scientific discussion. It is like making an elementary arithmetic error. You can easily avoid these things with a little practice. - Jed Comment: This is not meant to 'pick on' Jed....rather is an open comment to all Vortex: [a] We read a lot of opinion based on what the poster has read. [b] I would like to see a post based on real experimental work. [c] No matter if your was Richard Feynman...HE would council the comment be based on experimentalism. [d] If you.....personally have a history of hands on work with ...say...heat measuring...then you MIGHT be able to critique a thermal experiment .... provided you did your home work on the EXACT practice..... otherwise.... make VERY sure you state your comment is an OPINION. I also have had grand teachers....but it took at least 5 to10 Years of hands on work to even be able to find out if what I was taught held up. In way more than 80 percents of the cases I found the "teaching", while good as teaching goes....did NOTagree with reality. NB: Looking for REAL vs Opinion on Vortex......... Please.... JHS ------=_Part_25803_25399850.1173773167473 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 Dear Vortex and Jed,
 
 I post a 'cut-and-paste' from one of  Jed's  posts.....
 
NB......please see comment, below...
 
 
>
>No, because you'd never base everything on a an appeal to authority
>would you?

No, I never do. I had excellent teachers and I learned to avoid all
of the common logical errors of this type. I often point to experts,
and I defer to their authority, but this is NOT an appeal to
authority. There is a great deal of confusion about this, so I
suggest you read the Nizkor site definition carefully.

To simplify, an "appeal to authority" fallacy should more properly
called "an appeal to false authority." That is, a citation of a
person who thinks he is an authority, or claims he is, but who
actually is not. For example, suppose we are discussing
electrochemistry and you cite an opinion or statement by Bockris. You
have made a good point, because Bockris understands electrochemistry
and his pronouncements on the subject carry weight. If I try to
counter you by citing statements by Gary Taubes (from his book), that
would be an appeal to authority fallacy because even though Taubes
claims he knows this subject, he does not.

Not only should the person in question be an actual authority, he
should offer a cogent explanation for his views. If Bockris were to
say, "I'm right and I do not need to tell you why" he would be
abusing his authority. (He would never do that, but some other
experts do.) Quoting Nizkor:


An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.

This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a
legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is
not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument
will be fallacious.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is
not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact
that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any
justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact
that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any
rational reason to accept the claim as true.
 . . .

Nizkor make other important clarifications, such as: "Determining
whether or not a person has the needed degree of expertise can often
be very difficult. . . ." I suggest you read this carefully.

Please note that logical errors of this type are well established.
Most were discovered and named by ancient Greek and Roman
philosophers. There is no point to making mistakes such as "An Appeal
To Authority" (or "Ad Verecundiam" as they said in Ancient Rome ),
"Slippery Slope" or "Appeal to Tradition" in a scientific discussion.
It is like making an elementary arithmetic error. You can easily
avoid these things with a little practice.

- Jed

Comment:
 
This is not meant  to 'pick on'  Jed....rather is an open comment to  all
Vortex:
 
[a] We read a lot  of opinion based on what the poster has read.
[b]  I would like to see a post based on real experimental work.
[c]  No matter if your was Richard Feynman...HE would council the comment
be based on experimentalism.
[d]  If you.....personally  have a history of hands on work with ...say...heat measuring...then you  MIGHT be able to critique a thermal experiment .... provided
you did your home work on the EXACT practice..... otherwise.... make VERY sure
you state your comment is an OPINION.
 
       I also have had grand teachers....but it took at least 5 to10 Years of hands on work to even be able to find out if what I was taught held  up.
         In way more  than  80 percents of the cases I found the "teaching", while good as teaching   goes....did NOTagree  with  reality.
 
  NB: Looking   for REAL vs Opinion  on Vortex.........
 
        Please....
 
JHS
 
------=_Part_25803_25399850.1173773167473-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 02:32:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2D9Wgv4018452; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:32:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2D9WeOT018436; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:32:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:32:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=KGD5lfKX88QUbjY78Ag28gA1BlwXxhOHBMEXatdY6Sd4RP3aNEIPf5U0ikc/SltG24jRc6bZHFIvWIpsbFObEGAsHPpckfSwAQDhx2/crP+ohZ7Msc3ptK03bt4c+ujJELr60dU/DZ720h2L7tiKPyfqkAO0VOJCV1NXh8+TGUU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=kDaU4UHLJvI5WQA3nnHDnrXdqhfAjZnBVihhUtorqbRscH7Mw+Ggcs7JGF9tB+X11VzLWt7kx2gUpzP0+HV6Wn8TkqQjYRKgXCKtA/nSQvBG2BUhZ721RJp4NSiMsRDMuPtB2BjLUbTi7Bi15YvAe6do2b8LD1ND5T1ZXKrhM4U= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:32:38 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_20944_13605419.1173778358337" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73697 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Podkletnov and more... Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_20944_13605419.1173778358337 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline John, I figured since you're active I might get your opinion on Podkletnov's more recent experiments (admittedly not that recent, just not the old ones you successfully replicated) accomplished by discharges from a high voltage source. Since that is a souped up replication of the Morton effect which of course didn't involve SC's and rather similar to ATGroups Telos experiment which was sometimes observed to move pieces of paper or bend a laser beam. (even if all replications couldn't replicate all these effects, many failed to replicate the origonal Podkletnov effect which I assume you have little if any doubt about the reality there of) So as all of these devices though different have a very similar form and identical function, and as expensive (and complex) superconducting materials are not required it would seem a promising area for experimentation. I was wondering what your opinion of the impulse Podkletnov effect is and if you had any interest in further research. signed, the other John ------=_Part_20944_13605419.1173778358337 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline John, I figured since you're active I might get your opinion on Podkletnov's more recent experiments (admittedly not that recent, just not the old ones you successfully replicated) accomplished by discharges from a high voltage source.

Since that is a souped up replication of the Morton effect which of course didn't involve SC's and rather similar to ATGroups Telos experiment which was sometimes observed to move pieces of paper or bend a laser beam. (even if all replications couldn't replicate all these effects, many failed to replicate the origonal Podkletnov effect which I assume you have little if any doubt about the reality there of)

So as all of these devices though different have a very similar form and identical function, and as expensive (and complex) superconducting materials are not required it would seem a promising area for experimentation.

I was wondering what your opinion of the impulse Podkletnov effect is and if you had any interest in further research.


signed, the other John






------=_Part_20944_13605419.1173778358337-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 03:15:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DAFQ3q003262; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DAFPfU003237; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 03:15:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 03:15:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WYlPba1IUyAQJTecdx532iYmlkvlUdFJzRGSbnkGjY0elo8OsYLhcO8RYIqEFcplJo0rOHXYXOkgXzq2oZjFpU4E7Gv4vjVn+p8MZqs7loAhQTTemh2l3xWr/b3HDj0P7He6SdxPRyEkMl08F2jFOgjHMGLfLXeyjE4/9Ie/I78= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=omm2R9KmprIcg9kZpqhgBQ+d75uP25nrQe0yKecC/hUunVzr3T5mEbsQK3CWdkh0Ec6HmKbqqwT5xF0cxpq4CLl8DbsHs8mIyMfX6YrA0KUK4b/hKfVHjYMC6MoyKERXWznsURd7BpP5X73c2od+zBv820yn0UubkeOCUgtW0uY= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:15:21 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OT: Clairvoyant Talking Head In-Reply-To: <004201c76517$d7909b20$c905a8c0@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_21797_22433902.1173780921609" References: <45F5E856.8010206@pacbell.net> <004201c76517$d7909b20$c905a8c0@xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73698 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_21797_22433902.1173780921609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Richard, did you hear the latest news? BBC reported 20 minutes before WTC7 collapsed that it had collapsed. But they didn't say WTC7, if they had you might have thought they got their numbers muddled, they called it by it's full name, the Solomon Brothers Building which they mentioned had after the north and south tower, it's clearly visible in the background as still standing as the reporter talks about it's collapse. Take a look at the video: http://philjayhan.wordpress.com/ This is not the first time, one of the well known JFK facts is that New Zealand newspapers reported stuff they couldn't have possibly known yet unless it was planned, again we see the media ahead of the game. The result of a presidential election was printed beforehand too once. Here's the rest of the email in which I first mentioned it, got no replies so maybe it didn't get through (it is to Jed): Ok, so the squib explosions that can be plainly seen and heard (and sounds recorded) and which burnt people and thew them around, and went off before the collapse and thermite detected and plainly visible before WTC7 begins to collapse, buildings pancaking at freefall speeds!, the people doing work on the building before 911 (an unprecedented power down) and removing the bomb sniffing dogs there after, the pod (or a never before seen optical illusion on a plane?), the flash in all videos of both planes just before they hit (another optical illusion?), the total lack of evidence of a plane crash at Pennsylvania or even a drop of blood, everyone smelling cordite at the Pentagon, the calls that couldn't have been made (and the unreal conversations claimed: Hello mom, this is your son, Mark Bingham, You Believe me don't you? (that's how every phone conversation goes with my mother) The fact that the FBI admitted that the hijacker's ID were stolen and Arabs weren't involved and the (many identified) were still alive. (There were also no Arab names on the manifest, Autopsies showed no Arabs) The plane the Mayor claim landed, everyone was told to evacuate the airport (had to walk) and the flights either weren't scheduled or were at the wrong gates to begin with. (and the pilot of one of the planes just happened to be involved with a simulation of just such an event! What are the odds!) The patently fake Osama that looks nothing like Osama and uses the wrong hand to eat. (Osama is a lefty) And he already denied it! Ok, so none of this is able to even warrant you to looking into the evidence (as you show abundant ignorance of the position you are fighting against), well just look at this video: http://philjayhan.wordpress.com/ You can plainly see WTC7 (the Solomon Brothers Building) in the background as they report it has fallen, they were 20 minutes early!!! This is not the first time, one of the well known JFK facts is that New Zealand newspapers reported stuff they couldn't have possibly known yet, again we see the media ahead of the game. The result of a presidential election was printed beforehand too once. No, obviously this won't convince you, indeed I had asked and you admitted that no evidence possibly could, at least don't pretend you position is supported by logic or evidence. This isn't something I want to believe (Indeed I despise those that want to believe in such a horrific crime), this isn't a political statement and it says nothing about what one expects of the future, it has nothing to do with what is easy to believe or comfortable, it has nothing to do with patriotism (well I'm a kiwi so obviously not) or what someone thinks of right .vs left or capitalist .vs communist or any other issue that may be brought up, it's about one thing, the evidence. You can't brush it aside by giving anecdotes about cold fusion, Japan or politicians. You are welcome to close your eyes, cover your ears and hum if you wish though.. On 3/13/07, R.C.Macaulay wrote: > > Howdy Jones, > > The three views of happenings at 911 have been solidified. > > One view believes conspiracy > One view believes the government report > One view cannot decide. > > Beer drinkers at the Dime Box saloon don't care what happened. > > They can buy a tale of a 110 floor building pancaking down in 8-10 > seconds. After enough beers some can buy TWO 110 floor buildings > pancaking... but all the beer in the world ain't gonna convince 'em that > THREE buildings did a "Humpty Dumpty" when the third building didn't even > get hit with a Boeing jet. Course, drunks just like to argue and they > don't > matter to politicos but even a drunk, like a blind hog, can root up an > acorn > on occasion. > > For certain.. Halliburton announced today that they are moving their > headquarters to Dubai from Houston.. Hmmm. > > Richard > > ------=_Part_21797_22433902.1173780921609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Richard, did you hear the latest news?

BBC reported 20 minutes before WTC7 collapsed that it had collapsed.
But they didn't say WTC7, if they had you might have thought they got their numbers muddled, they called it by it's full name, the Solomon Brothers Building which they mentioned had after the north and south tower, it's clearly visible in the background as still standing as the reporter talks about it's collapse.

Take a look  at the video:
http://philjayhan.wordpress.com/

This is not the first time, one of the well known JFK facts is that New Zealand newspapers reported stuff they couldn't have possibly known yet unless it was planned, again we see the media ahead of the game.
The result of a presidential election was printed beforehand too once.

Here's the rest of the email in which I first mentioned it, got no replies so maybe it didn't get through (it is to Jed):

Ok, so the squib explosions that can be plainly seen and heard (and sounds recorded) and which burnt people and thew them around, and went off before the collapse and thermite detected and plainly visible before WTC7 begins to collapse, buildings pancaking at freefall speeds!, the people doing work on the building before 911 (an unprecedented power down) and removing the bomb sniffing dogs there after, the pod (or a never before seen optical illusion on a plane?), the flash in all videos of both planes just before they hit (another optical illusion?), the total lack of evidence of a plane crash at Pennsylvania or even a drop of blood, everyone smelling cordite at the Pentagon, the calls that couldn't have been made (and the unreal conversations claimed: Hello mom, this is your son, Mark Bingham, You Believe me don't you? (that's how every phone conversation goes with my mother)
The fact that the FBI admitted that the hijacker's ID were stolen and Arabs weren't involved and the (many identified) were still alive. (There were also no Arab names on the manifest, Autopsies showed no Arabs)
The plane the Mayor claim landed, everyone was told to evacuate the airport (had to walk) and the flights either weren't scheduled or were at the wrong gates to begin with. (and the pilot of one of the planes just happened to be involved with a simulation of just such an event! What are the odds!)
The patently fake Osama that looks nothing like Osama and uses the wrong hand to eat. (Osama is a lefty)
And he already denied it!

Ok, so none of this is able to even warrant you to looking into the evidence (as you show abundant ignorance of the position you are fighting against), well just look at this video:
http://philjayhan.wordpress.com/

You can plainly see WTC7 (the Solomon Brothers Building) in the background as they report it has fallen, they were 20 minutes early!!!

This is not the first time, one of the well known JFK facts is that New Zealand newspapers reported stuff they couldn't have possibly known yet, again we see the media ahead of the game.
The result of a presidential election was printed beforehand too once.

No, obviously this won't convince you, indeed I had asked and you admitted that no evidence possibly could, at least don't pretend you position is supported by logic or evidence.

This isn't something I want to believe (Indeed I despise those that want to believe in such a horrific crime), this isn't a political statement and it says nothing about what one expects of the future, it has nothing to do with what is easy to believe or comfortable, it has nothing to do with patriotism (well I'm a kiwi so obviously not) or what someone thinks of right .vs left or capitalist .vs communist or any other issue that may be brought up, it's about one thing, the evidence.

You can't brush it aside by giving anecdotes about cold fusion, Japan or politicians.

You are welcome to close your eyes, cover your ears and hum if you wish though..


On 3/13/07, R.C.Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:
Howdy Jones,

The three views of happenings at 911 have been solidified.

One view believes conspiracy
One view believes the government report
One view cannot decide.

Beer drinkers at the Dime Box saloon don't care what happened.

They can buy a  tale of a 110 floor building pancaking down in 8-10
seconds. After enough beers some can buy TWO 110 floor buildings
pancaking... but all the beer in the world ain't gonna convince 'em that
THREE buildings did a "Humpty Dumpty" when the third building didn't even
get hit with a Boeing jet. Course, drunks just like to argue and they don't
matter to politicos but even a drunk, like a blind hog, can root up an acorn
on occasion.

For certain.. Halliburton announced today that they are moving their
headquarters to Dubai from Houston.. Hmmm.

Richard


------=_Part_21797_22433902.1173780921609-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 06:36:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DDajvX022353; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 06:36:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DDagIM022328; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 06:36:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 06:36:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002801c76574$9efbeaf0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Modified Double-Slit Experiment Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:36:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C7654A.B51472F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73699 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C7654A.B51472F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0025_01C7654A.B515F990" ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C7654A.B515F990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHarry wrote.. >An article on the work titled "Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality" = recently published in Foundations of Physics, a prestigious, refereed academic journal, supports Albert Einstein=B9s long-debated belief that quantum = physics is incomplete. For eight decades the scientific community generally had supported Niels Bohr=B9s ideas commonly known as the Copenhagen = Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. In 1927, in his =B3Principle of = Complementarity,=B2 he asserted that in any experiment light shows only one aspect at a time, either it behaves as a wave or as a particle. Einstein was deeply = troubled by that principle, since he could not accept that any external = measurement would prevent light to reveal its full dual nature, according to Afshar. = The fundamental problem, however, seemed to be that one has to destroy the photon in order to measure either aspects of it. Then, once destroyed, = there is no light left to measure the other aspect. Howdy Harry, Such a fascinating subject with no end of mystery. Some time back I = posted a fun experiment to twist one's mind. An old time movie house = used a silvered sceen to receive the projected light. The screen had = tiny perforations. One could stand behind the screen in the dark and see = a perfect image of the movie ( in reverse). The fun begins when you = think of positioning a mirror behind the first screen in order to = "catch" the reverse image. Using a prism to project the original image = on the face of the screen so to allow an unobstructed mirrored image to = cascade back through the perforations and onto another mirror would = result in cascading the images into infinity. What does all this mean.. time also has a "weight". Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C7654A.B515F990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Harry wrote..

>An article on the work titled "Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality"=20 recently
published in Foundations of Physics, a prestigious, refereed = academic
journal, supports Albert Einstein=B9s long-debated belief = that quantum=20 physics
is incomplete. For eight decades the scientific community = generally=20 had
supported Niels Bohr=B9s ideas commonly known as the Copenhagen=20 Interpretation
of Quantum Mechanics. In 1927, in his =B3Principle of=20 Complementarity,=B2 he
asserted that in any experiment light shows = only one=20 aspect at a time,
either it behaves as a wave or as a particle. = Einstein was=20 deeply troubled
by that principle, since he could not accept that any = external measurement
would prevent light to reveal its full dual = nature,=20 according to Afshar. The
fundamental problem, however, seemed to be = that one=20 has to destroy the
photon in order to measure either aspects of it. = Then,=20 once destroyed, there
is no light left to measure the other = aspect.

Howdy Harry,

Such a fascinating subject with no end of mystery. Some time back I = posted a=20 fun experiment to twist one's mind. An old time movie house used a = silvered=20 sceen to receive the projected light. The screen had tiny perforations. = One=20 could stand behind the screen in the dark and see a perfect image of the = movie (=20 in reverse). The fun begins when you think  of positioning a=20 mirror behind the first screen in order to "catch" the reverse = image. Using=20 a prism to project the original  image on the face of the = screen=20 so to allow an unobstructed mirrored image to cascade back through the=20 perforations and onto another mirror would result in cascading the = images into=20 infinity.

What does all this mean.. time also has a "weight".

Richard



 

------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C7654A.B515F990-- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C7654A.B51472F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002301c76574$9d4b7bd0$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C7654A.B51472F0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 07:15:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DEFeZ6011251; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:15:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DEFc8V011216; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:15:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:15:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <45F6BDD7.B4CBFA9@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:05:59 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Clairvoyant Talking Head References: <45F5E856.8010206@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xj" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xj" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73700 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: ... Last week an independent researcher, reviewing video archives of the BBC's 9/11 coverage, divulged the earth-shaking incongruence. A BBC reporter in Manhattan - the lady-talking-head at the center of this forming vortex - as she was reading the news to Brits - with the WTC 7 [Solomon Brothers] building actually still standing behind her in the live feed - announced the collapse of the 47 story Building over 22 minutes BEFORE the actual collapse! Wow ... Despite the fact the Google has reportedly censored and removed the initial internet premier of this vid, removing it totally from their US website, several independent "mirrors" picked it up overseas. Here is one from the notorious conspiracy-monger named Alex Jones. Was this vid somehow "photoshopped"? http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/260207building7.htm ... BTW - the BBC, when shown this, claim that they "lost" the official tapes of their 9/11 coverage, and that it is a "cock-up, not conspiracy." Not sure who they intend to finger as the bumbling rooster, as it is hard to deny something is seriously amiss here, if you can offer nothing official in response. Hmm... They just happened to lose their coverage of the most critical and historic event in the 21st century? Now that is harder to believe than that the video has been photoshopped ... Hmmm... come to think of it - Blair did seem to be in bed with W from day one. Absolutely zero hesitation on buying the war imperative. Is that because he had been forewarned of many details in advance? How could that have filtered over to the BBC so soon? ... The truth will "out" ... given enough time. Hi All, The stakes have been and will continue to be extremely high. The price of oil is not the only issue; there is also the control issue. When Unocal's agent, Karzai (the current Afghan president), was unable to complete the pipeline deal with the Taliban -- from Kazakhstan through Afghanistan to the port of Karachi in Pakastan -- "we" had no alternative but to go in. All that was needed was an excuse. This crime may seem too fantastic, but there are probably even more unbelievable surprises out there. What happens when Chicago is nuked and the smoking gun points to Iran? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 07:35:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DEYiac008788; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:34:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DEYg58008765; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:34:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:34:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313102845.036e41f0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:34:32 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy In-Reply-To: References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73701 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >A ha, so now who is an authority on pancaking skyscrapers? >No one. As noted previously, the people at Controlled Demolition are experts at pancaking skyscrapers. They have destroyed thousands of structures, some as large as municipal stadiums. Also, the people at NIST are world class experts on building failures. Again, they have studied thousands of examples, and devoted thousands of man-years to experimental research into this kind of thing. There is no chance you could fool such people, or hide the fact that the building was actually destroyed by demolition, and there is not the slightest chance these people would participate in a conspiracy or cover-up. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 07:37:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DEbXAW010475; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:37:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DEbViM010451; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:37:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:37:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313103505.036ec938@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:36:19 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: to Jed In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2iETmD.A.MjC.rcr9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73702 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: john herman wrote: > Either you you do not read what you write ...OR > You are reporting matters outof context.... > >[a] In an aqueous electrolytic system the anode and the cathode are not >supposed to touch. >[b] what the Bleet Hawses are you trying to communicate...??? Just what I said: the anode and cathode cannot touch. They must be separated by the aqueous solution. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 07:44:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DEikY8029432; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:44:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DEiiD5029417; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:44:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:44:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313103714.03772e58@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:44:19 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: References: <45F5DD20.5070402@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1yDmmD.A.jLH.cjr9FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73703 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >What makes you sure that COP measurements are not vital to understanding >the phenomena? I think this question is addressed to Ed Storms, but he is probably sick of responding, so let me answer one last time. The required level input power is governed by mundane electrochemical considerations, such as the distance between the anode and the cathode. These considerations are well understood, so there is no point to bothering with them. We can improve the COP anytime, but that proves nothing and contributes nothing to our understanding of the phenomenon. A cold fusion cell is not designed to be efficient or to have a high COP; it is designed to reveal something important about the phenomenon. In some cases, generating a high COP would actually interfere with the observations you are trying to perform. In other cases it would simply waste the researcher's time and money. As I mentioned, the only reason anyone wants to raise the COP is to improve the calorimetry, and increase the s/n ratio. This can also be done by other means, which are sometimes easier or better. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 08:00:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DF0O8T018689; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:00:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DF0NfZ018671; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:00:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:00:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313105642.037648e0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:59:11 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: <140a01c76509$5c69d820$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <12873381.1173737744369.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <140a01c76509$5c69d820$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2751156==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7hxI4D.A.njE.Hyr9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73704 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_2751156==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michel Jullian wrote: >Now, Edmund, could you please refrain your own humility and kindly >recommend one of your F&P excess heat experimental papers? I am not >familiar with F&P as you know. I am looking for good experimental >papers on the subject, notably one of yours if you could advise me. For crying out loud, Michel! You should read all the papers by Storms, plus everything by McKubre, Miles, Fleischmann and Pons, at least. Do not ask questions until after you have read the literature. - Jed --=====================_2751156==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michel Jullian wrote:

Now, Edmund, could you please refrain your own humility and kindly recommend one of your F&P excess heat experimental papers? I am not familiar with F&P as you know. I am looking for good experimental papers on the subject, notably one of yours if you could advise me.

For crying out loud, Michel! You should read all the papers by Storms, plus everything by McKubre, Miles, Fleischmann and Pons, at least. Do not ask questions until after you have read the literature.

- Jed
--=====================_2751156==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 08:23:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DFN3MI024848; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:23:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DFN1RG024814; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:23:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:23:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kU1dv/TFZp7x082t8F6uL5Wia5jP7VN3fB3aS4dhLRUREikeZ96hoQ460OLuwG9Ku7e514O8GDuqqFKb4nuNIl7jck8yaMFJs2uGPD7l05EZ6tEU6oP6y/Gava3gTl3y36uTkEjPMO4y7vy3ND5EnX0rWM+pqm7x3MU42cKZGZE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bBrGn69lf9UgsoaGG2GHrtq5beF69oHrLGasiIwbl5Axz8Dz/uO7SYiPBskMPaLCtALb917GVDMICumuISCd0ZVvPmjb4elB/ycDl5PQot8mFe6xF/uG9kQVEu3L+HaBS+1COMGoEOoay9b4EEoYle+aecekJWxmFYQhYSqL4j4= Message-ID: <45F6CFDD.3080309@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:22:53 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Modified Double-Slit Experiment References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73705 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Harry, I've been lightly following the Afshar experiment for some time at WikiPedia. The article --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afshar_experiment and the discussion --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Afshar_experiment Has there been a recent change in this debate? Last I checked the debate was still in full swing if BPC (Bohr's Principle of Complementarity) was violated. I also had a proposed double slit experiment. The double slit normally detects a photon or electron strike. We could take this one step further by detecting the direction of impact. For example, we know that if an electron collides in a bulk of metal there's an electric wave that propagates away from the collision location. Furthermore we can detect the direction of impact by analyzing such electric wave collision patterns. I see three possibilities --> 1. Electron came from left slit. 2. Electron came from right slit. 3. Electron came from the middle of both slits. It's possible option #3 would occur every time. Another possibility is for option #1 or #2 to occur while still maintaining the interference patterns. Regards, Paul Lowrance Harry Veeder wrote: > More detail in this pdf file: > http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0702188 > Harry > ------------ > > http://www.physorg.com/news92937814.html > > Physicists Modify Double-Slit Experiment to Confirm Einstein's Belief > > Work completed by physics professors at Rowan University shows that light is > made of particles and waves, a finding that refutes a common belief held for > about 80 years. > > > Shahriar S. Afshar, the visiting professor who is currently at Boston's > Institute for Radiation-Induced Mass Studies (IRIMS), led a team, including > Rowan physics professors Drs. Eduardo Flores and Ernst Knoesel and student > Keith McDonald, that proved Afshar¹s original claims, which were based on a > series of experiments he had conducted several years ago. > > An article on the work titled "Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality" recently > published in Foundations of Physics, a prestigious, refereed academic > journal, supports Albert Einstein¹s long-debated belief that quantum physics > is incomplete. For eight decades the scientific community generally had > supported Niels Bohr¹s ideas commonly known as the Copenhagen Interpretation > of Quantum Mechanics. In 1927, in his ³Principle of Complementarity,² he > asserted that in any experiment light shows only one aspect at a time, > either it behaves as a wave or as a particle. Einstein was deeply troubled > by that principle, since he could not accept that any external measurement > would prevent light to reveal its full dual nature, according to Afshar. The > fundamental problem, however, seemed to be that one has to destroy the > photon in order to measure either aspects of it. Then, once destroyed, there > is no light left to measure the other aspect. > > ³About 150 years ago, light was thought to behave solely as a wave similar > to sound and water waves. In 1905, Einstein observed that light might also > act as being made out of small particles. Since then physicists found it > difficult understanding the full nature of light since in some situations it > acts like a particle and in others like a wave,² Flores said. ³This dual > nature of light led to the insight that all fundamental physical objects > include a wave and a particle aspect, even electrons, protons and students.² > > Afshar conducted his initial theoretical and experimental work at IRIMS, > where he served the privately funded organization as a principal > investigator. He later continued his work at the Harvard University Physics > Department as a research scholar, where he was able to verify his initial > findings before going to Rowan. > > In 2004, Afshar claimed that he had devised an experiment that challenged > Bohr¹s principle of complementarity. The Rowan team was formed to verify > Afshar¹s claim at extremely low light intensity levels. Afshar, Flores and > Knoesel conducted experiments at Rowan that validated Afshar¹s initial > findings for single photons. > > In this modified double-slit experiment, a laser beam hits a screen with two > small pinholes. As a particle, light goes through one of the pinholes. > Through a lens system, the light is then imaged onto two detectors, where a > certain detector measures only the photons, which went through a particular > pinhole. In this way, Afshar verified the particle nature of light. As a > wave, light goes through both pinholes and forms a so-called interference > pattern of bright and dark fringes. > > ³Afshar¹s experiment consists of the clever idea of putting small absorbing > wires at the exact position of the dark interference fringes, where you > expect no light,² Knoesel said. ³He then observed that the wires do not > change the total light intensity, so there are really dark fringes at the > position of the wires. That proves that light also behaves as a wave in the > same experiment in which it behaves as a particle.² > > The findings of the Afshar experiment were published online on January 23 in > the Foundations of Physics, an international journal devoted to the > conceptual bases and fundamental theories of modern physics, biophysics and > cosmology, with several distinguished Nobel laureates on its editorial > board. The print version was published in the February 2007 edition and is > now available in libraries throughout the world. > > ³The important new contribution is that light carries both wave and particle > aspects at all times, and future experiments will further clarify the nature > of each component.² Afshar said. > > Flores continued, ³It is interesting to note that even after 80 years we can > still gain a better understanding about the nature of light using refined > measurement techniques and creative ideas and therefore are able add to the > vast insights of former scientists.² > > Citation: Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality, Shahriar S. Afshar, Eduardo > Flores, Keith F. McDonald and Ernst Knoesel, Foundations of Physics, 23 > January 2007, DOI 10.1007/s10701-006-9102-8 > > Source: Rowan University > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 08:30:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DFTtps001314; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:29:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DFTrOP001289; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:29:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:29:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313112836.03772e58@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:29:43 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4584125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73706 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New paper by Storms Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4584125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This was discussed here yesterday: Storms, E., Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte. 2007, LENR-CANR.org. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEanomalousha.pdf - Jed --=====================_4584125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This was discussed here yesterday:

Storms, E., Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte. 2007, LENR-CANR.org.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEanomalousha.pdf

- Jed
--=====================_4584125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 08:49:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DFnKQF002228; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:49:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DFnIMg002207; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:49:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:49:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=W6ujME1h/aH2B+S8uNUDbQAA3TsJdoEQ5s6A7kyFsy57VGVTjnS+TDeMSNUflbcQAerZTKuj2t2L6Jd/5wNeYDve+M62kWYHfjQ6PesNxfZ6yMPKq8ZFew7S7XKfAZzvJy+xxpy3aBJyCyx0NFuIEx7jH4Ss8x4F45+aCv9uszs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DtuDc7R9UsWC+gLJx3DA799r4YERq+0UJMU9PpL6eCod8E5+m4tTkTEoG0EMQFqvnf3+fuCCjaDjZCXU3uRq6fixv7tH+svV20LDWojLik1sIr3pVtPingM7yqQDB+O0TcL9rrCiWhdR76Ng1x/Np3f5m3BapzwXCLcVFULuEmY= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:49:13 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313102845.036e41f0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30294_11196886.1173800953500" References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313102845.036e41f0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73707 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_30294_11196886.1173800953500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/14/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > >A ha, so now who is an authority on pancaking skyscrapers? > >No one. > > As noted previously, the people at Controlled Demolition are experts > at pancaking skyscrapers. They have destroyed thousands of > structures, some as large as municipal stadiums. A stadium is nothing like a high rise. You say they are experts of pancaking buildings and yet you don't cite a single case where they have pulled a single floor (in an otherwise unweakened building) and had it pancake at freefall speeds. (extra points if the pulled floor or floors are pulled by heat failure from a fire) Or for that matter I challenge you to show me at least where they did a pancaking demolition instead of the classic implosion even if it doesn't match the specs of as otherwise undamaged building. Also, the people at > NIST are world class experts on building failures. Again, they have > studied thousands of examples, and devoted thousands of man-years to > experimental research into this kind of thing. There is no chance you > could fool such people, or hide the fact that the building was > actually destroyed by demolition, and there is not the slightest > chance these people would participate in a conspiracy or cover-up. You're a fool. You won't look at the evidence, you just insist the experts are right, well the ones that you agree with. The NIST has not studied such collapses. Also despite your insistence that metal buildings fail due to fire there is no skyscraper that has failed due to fire before, only the 3 in that one day. In the others far greater heats for much longer times exposing steel, not a few hours of a black smoke fire. (not a very hot fire) But all of that is pointless because you can see the squibs, in the case of WTC7 before it begins to collapse. And the charges in the towers are plainly visible and huge, they burnt people. You can't counter any of the evidence, not a single piece of it so you just ignore the evidence and cite a few supposed experts who are ever so sure it wasn't covert demolition. But all the experts in the world can't undo proof. Your appeal to authority is flawed regardless of the validity of these experts the fact that it is to the exclusion of actual physical evidence, hard evidence you can't and haven't even tried to counter, but opinions of supposed authorities are so much more solid huh? It's not even up for debate, there is no other way to interpret the evidence, the fact is if all the experts told you anything that obviously wasn't true you would believe it because they are experts, I'm sorry but that makes me sick. ------=_Part_30294_11196886.1173800953500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/14/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

>A ha, so now who is an authority on pancaking skyscrapers?
>No one.

As noted previously, the people at Controlled Demolition are experts
at pancaking skyscrapers. They have destroyed thousands of
structures, some as large as municipal stadiums.

A stadium is nothing like a high rise.
You say they are experts of pancaking buildings and yet you don't cite a single case where they have pulled a single floor (in an otherwise unweakened building) and had it pancake at freefall speeds. (extra points if the pulled floor or floors are pulled by heat failure from a fire)
Or for that matter I challenge you to show me at least where they did a pancaking demolition instead of the classic implosion even if it doesn't match the specs of as otherwise undamaged building.


Also, the people at
NIST are world class experts on building failures. Again, they have
studied thousands of examples, and devoted thousands of man-years to
experimental research into this kind of thing. There is no chance you
could fool such people, or hide the fact that the building was
actually destroyed by demolition, and there is not the slightest
chance these people would participate in a conspiracy or cover-up.

You're a fool.
You won't look at the evidence, you just insist the experts are right, well the ones that you agree with.
The NIST has not studied such collapses.
Also despite your insistence that metal buildings fail due to fire there is no skyscraper that has failed due to fire before, only the 3 in that one day.
In the others far greater heats for much longer times exposing steel, not a few hours of a black smoke fire. (not a very hot fire)
But all of that is pointless because you can see the squibs, in the case of WTC7 before it begins to collapse.
And the charges in the towers are plainly visible and huge, they burnt people.

You can't counter any of the evidence, not a single piece of it so you just ignore the evidence and cite a few supposed experts who are ever so sure it wasn't covert demolition.
But all the experts in the world can't undo proof.

Your appeal to authority is flawed regardless of the validity of these experts the fact that it is to the exclusion of actual physical evidence, hard evidence you can't and haven't even tried to counter, but opinions of supposed authorities are so much more solid huh?

It's not even up for debate, there is no other way to interpret the evidence, the fact is if all the experts told you anything that obviously wasn't true you would believe it because they are experts, I'm sorry but that makes me sick.

------=_Part_30294_11196886.1173800953500-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 08:53:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DFquXO024644; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:52:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DFqtBT024613; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:52:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:52:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=oQnpQrKcOp7rmmEnENDNPn/LC8opE8N8+4ygIXlLYmyigMal8t+UuhVL7k0WEezFYn2LM8LiZd4RAsnldetL4qvlQHt05wJavY2xGfLyNzgRpfyzUYcGdVStt8URAauz4o2bQg/hx5IQwBifo88mszSiQP93NdVdJBZVI1AIF98= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=CpcTrcHFizsojiPih8DbFfyixPF/Zi18/MV2DI9MScBrNOXKjxqnUd2nsftepM1fL7euD9dSQJBrXlue4HYtD+Q3A9lQdQWUp+pRnqKW2LdAAsgzSg96fwcHXykMqbDI4Wbb8c+KMjZb9S0vviQppRdxoYccykc/iceb64aMwUU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:52:48 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: to Jed In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313103505.036ec938@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30430_13582332.1173801168383" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313103505.036ec938@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73708 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_30430_13582332.1173801168383 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/14/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > john herman wrote: > > > Either you you do not read what you write ...OR > > You are reporting matters outof context.... > > > >[a] In an aqueous electrolytic system the anode and the cathode are not > >supposed to touch. > >[b] what the Bleet Hawses are you trying to communicate...??? > > Just what I said: the anode and cathode cannot touch. "I think Biberian is still pursuing this. His biggest problem is that the anode and cathode heat up and lose contact. In other words, they do not touch, which causes a failure -- the opposite from liquid electrolysis. " Wow, you must have some creative reading ability to get that from what I just quoted above! They must be > separated by the aqueous solution. > > - Jed > > ------=_Part_30430_13582332.1173801168383 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/14/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
john herman wrote:

>    Either  you you do  not read what you write ...OR
>     You  are  reporting matters outof context....
>
>[a]  In an aqueous electrolytic system the anode and the cathode are not
>supposed to touch.
>[b]  what the Bleet  Hawses are you   trying to communicate...???

Just what I said: the anode and cathode cannot touch.

 
 "I think Biberian is still pursuing this. His biggest problem is that
 the anode and cathode heat up and lose contact. In other words, they
 do not touch, which causes a failure -- the opposite from liquid electrolysis. "



Wow, you must have some creative reading ability to get that from what I just quoted above!

They must be
separated by the aqueous solution.

- Jed


------=_Part_30430_13582332.1173801168383-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 09:01:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DG1EFH008567; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:01:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DG19X4008540; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:01:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:01:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313115843.037648e0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:01:01 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: to Jed In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313103505.036ec938@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73709 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > "I think Biberian is still pursuing this. His biggest problem is that > the anode and cathode heat up and lose contact. In other words, they > do not touch, which causes a failure -- the opposite from liquid > electrolysis. " > > >Wow, you must have some creative reading ability to get that from >what I just quoted above! I do not understand what you are getting at. I stated quite plainly that with liquid electrolysis the anode and cathode do not touch, whereas with a proton conductor (gas electrolysis) they do touch. What is your question? I suggest you read Mizuno, Oriani and Biberian for details. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 09:07:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DG72bg002334; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:07:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DG6wls002308; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:06:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:06:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313120123.03793de0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:06:43 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy In-Reply-To: References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313102845.036e41f0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73710 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >You say they are experts of pancaking buildings and yet you don't >cite a single case where they have pulled a single floor (in an >otherwise unweakened building) and had it pancake at freefall speeds. This has happened hundreds of times. NIST and others have detailed records of such events. I once saw the remains of a parking garage that collapsed straight down onto $100,000 worth of minicomputer equipment, because one floor gave way. It was MY company's computer equipment! (The insurance paid for it.) When a single floor of a building falls down, it strikes with many times more force than any building is designed to withstand. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 09:16:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DGGMZq005688; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:16:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DGGKVL005669; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:16:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:16:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <152301c7658a$f1170b60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313112836.03772e58@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:16:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2DGGIob005640 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73711 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: New paper by Storms Status: RO X-Status: Ahhhh, thank you Edmund. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:29 PM Subject: [Vo]: New paper by Storms > This was discussed here yesterday: > > Storms, E., Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium > using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte. 2007, LENR-CANR.org. > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEanomalousha.pdf > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 09:55:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DGtocq027906; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:55:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DGtl8Q027876; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:55:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:55:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=c43g3XLBf4XKnhezlwStH/CNSGE/zFBOZyiq2wPnawYnM591Mhph8W36k/N1FlwK89rkgtYppQtl9mQWMX+7e6BlxjbbON6udCsgW2kkfYgYDOPyXSTYzUrTCKx0c/1bubswcLEtLjcqbIfoiayiS0ANd+csf+czBbnBLWLBtm4= ; X-YMail-OSG: hSGAhTUVM1luUnMuDCB487Czbpwmf69bPa5WGeLsRrS.yXzgkSmcBIkeZVxdEk.lySEcu32nlUvgwtWCpKt34r_St2VxIMEgL1lyHeEej6l1l9wtYzZ1jPLCZAiqeuI5c5fPNTHGmfJfpaY- Message-ID: <45F6D791.8010207@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:55:45 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2DGtjqh027837 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73712 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Wiki Entry - was "electron capture" Status: O X-Status: Depending on which version (in time) of Wiki one happens to get hold-of, under the "cold fusion" entry - you may or may not find the Szpak et al. electron-capture model mentioned, and instead there will be this: "In 2005, Alan Widom and Lewis Larsen proposed a theory that could explain the experimental results without D-D fusion nor tunneling through a high Coulomb barrier. Based on mainstream physics, it proposes that electrons and protons annihilate to form low momentum neutrons, that these neutrons are absorbed by surrounding atoms, and that these atoms are transmuted by beta decay. Widom, Larsen, "Ultra Low Momentum Neutron Catalyzed Nuclear Reactions on Metallic Hydride Surfaces.", [27] cited by New Energy Times, "Newcomers to Condensed Matter Nuclear Science Rock the Boat, Part 2", Nov 10, 2005, [28]" The reason that this Widom/Larsen effort might possibly be the superior (yet still deficient) verbalization of a similar insight, was suggested by Robin earlier - but you will also not find that possibility remotely mentioned by either Mills or the LENR camp. However, the all important ultra "low momentum neutron" of Widom is rather easy to shoehorn into the hydrino (deuterino) theory of Mills, but almost impossible to justify otherwise. Without the low mobility parameter, neutrons WILL be in evidence - yet they are not. Ask yourself why not - and you must come back around to Mills. In terms of 'March Madness' this is a slam-dunk with Mills CQM, but a cross-court lob otherwise...creating the curious situation that to make the electron capture theory work at all, the theorist is probably going to have to break down artificial barriers between two adverse groups, and ditch professional jealousies, and pay homage to R. Mills. ... or to lighten up this current suggestion ... how about giving ohmage to Mills? He is equally guilty and cannot be forgiven for neglecting deuterium, even though everything he has accomplished might have benefited. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher - all is vanity. Seriously, if you stand back from the fracas, the obvious key to understanding the situation here is the identify of transmutation products: Ruthenium, Rhodium and Silver - all expected to appear in the nuclear aftermath of the "low momentum neutron" absorption by Pd. This is not "news" - at all, despite the recent round of attention showered on the Szpak work - and seeing CF results published in peer-reviewed journals, and talked about again with much less skepticism than before. It is a subtle change - but it is there. Fifteen years ago, the historic Passell Presentation at ICCF5 indicated that even as far back as 1992 (and even earlier) --- about six weeks after a Pons-Fleischmann-type cold fusion experiment was completed in Dr. Wolf’s lab, one cathode was found to be inexplicably radioactive, with a signal-to-noise ratio of ten. Indisputable! yet nearly totally ignored by the mainstream! The only other way this cathode becomes radioactive is if someone sticks it in a reactor or beam-line. Gammas from at least seven radionuclides were unmistakably observed. The major ones were Ruthenium, Rhodium and Silver. Under these conditions, the statistical significance of the data is extremely high. There is simply no known explanation for how palladium can be made radioactive with these particular isotopes under low voltage electrolysis. Fast forward 15 years and here we are - with almost zero improvement over what Passell and Wolf reported in 1992. The names are different, but the results are actually less - not more - convincing to many observers than they were then. But hey ... instead of progress we have wasted at least $500 billion and 15 years on oil-wars, obscene gasoline profits, and thousands of families who have lost ... oops, let's don't go there. Let's just hope some sanity returns our nation once we, the enlightened voters of America, finally decide to dump the Petrocracy and all of their minions in Congress, and divert billions in oil revenues into alternative energy in a non-partisan but anti-petroleum NWO. ... how is that for some major op-ed ohmage being pumped into 'current' events? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 12:17:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DJGrS7026678; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:16:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DJGp2L026652; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:16:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:16:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cQ2+yuRi4lU8aNf08PTVsZWNk/fnJ06+Hjjn1lVwzurg7M6UlghdxScntTqBH7RO0gWwKZIKTl0XPu8TZOgc5KMQyCIJI9SCBOi8tUWGhZMx8kTqsjKxYDAYCw8RmpTrVeb0iBYq5dPbFjr1vSo/hj8dKTn/kv/8jcIQvttYMhI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=n89Ydo7erxB/22AkbWGc0mPcOdYBmLeG35KYmMQVoNupYE4uq2GKYmC0za8u6MOsTl9+y8kxiV7Fc/OTSADV/fsFn6vB/R6u6TTMFdrXLjpX9X2zqUoo2nVRP813AP1PzCku1Igpc6jc80DFTkHVxAxQSHPhOFC+6WqamuTWwuw= Message-ID: <45F706A8.4050605@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:16:40 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Diodes capturing Ambient energy References: <45F6D791.8010207@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45F6D791.8010207@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73713 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, The following is an important consideration for those interested in the very real upcoming technology that will capture significant continuous energy day or night from ambient temperature (surrounding air and Earth). Silicon and Germanium are what is called *Indirect band gap* material. This means Si and Ge are inefficient at emitting and receiving radiation. Although recent technology has made it possible to make Si LED's, but that's more complex. The following link contains a very nice table of different semiconductors showing which materials are Indirect and Direct band gap --> http://www.chemistry.patent-invent.com/chemistry/semiconductor_materials.html Therefore, it seems highly advantageous to perform experiments using the following materials --> * Indium Antimonide (InSb) 0.17 eV * Indium Arsenide (InAs) = 0.354 eV InSb is the best choice for capturing room temperature black body radiation. I believe the above are direct band gap materials, which means they are efficient at receiving and emitting radiation. It's too bad Germanium is indirect band gap. Sure glad I discovered this before heading out to buy various Ge diodes. :-) Tom Schum placed 32 germanium diodes in series, which resulted in ~1 uV. What would be terribly interesting is to see the vast difference an InSb or InAs LED would make. It seems unrealistic to use a $108 to $175 MID-IR LED for a replicable experiment. Very few people would spend $108 just to verify that ambient temperature energy is capturable. People who already believe don't need it. One almost needs to pay a skeptic to view an experiment that goes against their beliefs. There is one alternative, and that's the $10 1550 nm LED, made of InGaAsP, but I'm not sure present instruments could measure the effect at room temperature. I calculate the effect would be ~100 million times less than the $175 4900 nm LED. The presence of Ga greatly increases the band gap, unfortunately, which is why this LED is only 1550 nm. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 12:30:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DJUkXd030884; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:30:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DJUijI030868; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:30:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:30:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:30:10 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313103714.03772e58@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <6mFNz.A.MiH.kvv9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73714 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> What makes you sure that COP measurements are not vital to understanding >> the phenomena? > > I think this question is addressed to Ed Storms, but he is probably > sick of responding, so let me answer one last time. > > The required level input power is governed by mundane electrochemical > considerations, such as the distance between the anode and the > cathode. These considerations are well understood, so there is no > point to bothering with them. We can improve the COP anytime, but > that proves nothing and contributes nothing to our understanding of > the phenomenon. So most reseachers claim they (implicitly) know enough about the phenomena to improve the COP, but it is beneath them to test this claim?? > A cold fusion cell is not designed to be efficient or > to have a high COP; it is designed to reveal something important > about the phenomenon. In some cases, generating a high COP would > actually interfere with the observations you are trying to perform. > In other cases it would simply waste the researcher's time and money. > As I mentioned, the only reason anyone wants to raise the COP is to > improve the calorimetry, and increase the s/n ratio. This can also be > done by other means, which are sometimes easier or better. > It is time for more science, and fewer "I-don't-do-engineering" excuses. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 12:59:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DJxLlu010190; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:59:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DJxJlq010167; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:59:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:59:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FAaGqPK3meTjbe2p6Xfm75pKbe3YSmDLtv7pk5AfJycG94pg0Kt+LiMhBQ2UsCM5/YUAGWOYyZmTk31W5DI6xKhshBiY+pYokUfn76UcUjnCCIv8xCzLFjOzD/6fv7dBsQ54hcomzmU2dfdKmN2f++IprAsJ5quNFAcLyAvAWsE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sN+Ih5656aM1iDmos5ouWsJLbJd46YYbDh6GWzM+DxGaKZQ+4XHuXoHGh+wQ/A68KD+vj3tyAKXpxIz9ALVm7Gr345sMexpG4Qp0IcN5u83C3FpXpFCA6x9gFAaOuB5XTYZYabBmRg0uzg8n4lMrl6iYOcYnQ1FiPReqpNfPsoA= Message-ID: <45F710A0.3000100@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:59:12 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diodes capturing Ambient energy - BINGO! References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73715 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More discoveries. It appears a HgTe photodiode is just about the ultimate material for this research. It has a band gap of zero eV! Various amounts of Cd (Hg[x-1]Cd[x]Te) increases the band gap to whatever value you want. Here are some interesting quotes --> Quote #1 from WikiPedia: --- Owing to its cost, the use of HgCdTe has so far been restricted to the military field and infrared astronomy research. Military technology depends on HgCdTe for night vision. In particular, the US air force makes extensive use of HgCdTe on all aircraft, and to equip airborne smart bombs. A variety of heat-seeking missiles are also equipped with HgCdTe detectors. --- Quote #2 from WikiPedia: --- The main limitation of LWIR HgCdTe-based detectors is that they need cooling to temperatures near that of liquid nitrogen (77K), ***TO REDUCE NOISE*** due to thermally excited current carriers --- Note the bold text in Quote #2. This material is so noisy they need to cool it to 77K, otherwise the voltage noise is incredible ... bingo! This is so ironic. Why are most desirable things come at such high cost? Everyone loves ice cream, but the calories. I would give just about anything to experiment with a p-n HgTe photodiode, but it's ridiculously expensive. Would they even sell it to me? Furthermore, this material has ultra wide bandwidth. Mercury(II) cadmium(II) telluride (HgCdTe): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HgCdTe band gap image diagram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HgCdTe_Eg_vs_x.PNG Regards, Paul Lowrance Paul Lowrance wrote: > Hi, > > The following is an important consideration for those interested in the > very real upcoming technology that will capture significant continuous > energy day or night from ambient temperature (surrounding air and Earth). > > Silicon and Germanium are what is called *Indirect band gap* material. > This means Si and Ge are inefficient at emitting and receiving > radiation. Although recent technology has made it possible to make Si > LED's, but that's more complex. > > The following link contains a very nice table of different > semiconductors showing which materials are Indirect and Direct band gap --> > > http://www.chemistry.patent-invent.com/chemistry/semiconductor_materials.html > > > Therefore, it seems highly advantageous to perform experiments using the > following materials --> > > * Indium Antimonide (InSb) 0.17 eV > * Indium Arsenide (InAs) = 0.354 eV > > InSb is the best choice for capturing room temperature black body > radiation. I believe the above are direct band gap materials, which > means they are efficient at receiving and emitting radiation. > > It's too bad Germanium is indirect band gap. Sure glad I discovered > this before heading out to buy various Ge diodes. :-) Tom Schum placed > 32 germanium diodes in series, which resulted in ~1 uV. What would be > terribly interesting is to see the vast difference an InSb or InAs LED > would make. > > It seems unrealistic to use a $108 to $175 MID-IR LED for a replicable > experiment. Very few people would spend $108 just to verify that > ambient temperature energy is capturable. People who already believe > don't need it. One almost needs to pay a skeptic to view an experiment > that goes against their beliefs. > > There is one alternative, and that's the $10 1550 nm LED, made of > InGaAsP, but I'm not sure present instruments could measure the effect > at room temperature. I calculate the effect would be ~100 million times > less than the $175 4900 nm LED. The presence of Ga greatly increases the > band gap, unfortunately, which is why this LED is only 1550 nm. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 13:09:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DK9ZZi013317; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:09:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DK9Ydj013309; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:09:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:09:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:09:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Modified Double-Slit Experiment In-reply-to: <45F6CFDD.3080309@gmail.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73716 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul, I don't know. The Afshar experiment is new to me. Harry Paul Lowrance wrote: > Hi Harry, > > I've been lightly following the Afshar experiment for some time at WikiPedia. > The article --> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afshar_experiment > > and the discussion --> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Afshar_experiment > > Has there been a recent change in this debate? Last I checked the debate was > still in full swing if BPC (Bohr's Principle of Complementarity) was violated. > > I also had a proposed double slit experiment. The double slit normally detects > a > photon or electron strike. We could take this one step further by detecting > the > direction of impact. For example, we know that if an electron collides in a > bulk > of metal there's an electric wave that propagates away from the collision > location. Furthermore we can detect the direction of impact by analyzing such > electric wave collision patterns. I see three possibilities --> > > 1. Electron came from left slit. > 2. Electron came from right slit. > 3. Electron came from the middle of both slits. > > It's possible option #3 would occur every time. Another possibility is for > option #1 or #2 to occur while still maintaining the interference patterns. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> More detail in this pdf file: >> http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0702188 >> Harry >> ------------ >> >> http://www.physorg.com/news92937814.html >> >> Physicists Modify Double-Slit Experiment to Confirm Einstein's Belief >> >> Work completed by physics professors at Rowan University shows that light is >> made of particles and waves, a finding that refutes a common belief held for >> about 80 years. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 13:10:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DKAfKp029841; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:10:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DKAdvi029814; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:10:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:10:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:10:29 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313103714.03772e58@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73717 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >So most reseachers claim they (implicitly) know enough about the phenomena >to improve the COP, but it is beneath them to test this claim?? No, that is not what I mean. Please read the message more carefully and stop putting words in my mouth. Anyone with knowledge of electrochemistry knows how to improve the overall COP, when you define that as electrochemical power input versus total output. Improving that ratio proves nothing. The only thing you want to improve is the power of the cold fusion reaction, which is separate and not directly correlated with electrolysis power. >It is time for more science, and fewer "I-don't-do-engineering" excuses. Improving the COP would be engineering, not science. As I said previously, it would also interfere with the science in many cases, which is why it is not done. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 13:21:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DKLhkw020892; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:21:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DKLf3h020877; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:21:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:21:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QNOpM+Jjdr+EJqhKUHq0oyCMWBY/ovcgrBZFUv6nXB6axS7qFWuBTymWAxVybwUFyk4B9nfoelthdpjVIKist9L3IF2vHioiVK/ZRPiJu3hrxmMgQXwEZgJI/f7TuxmhJHYlT/chwvpv5/VFjlEfB6HDKvt4CvGn5POgqDHOqiQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VX4STIDx/D5SAaeKoHlJ85NCnklCVANtsdX83bfjsrVTVkGFB5z8YK6uV/A2PjWPSm/QKQ+15Jn97uVW9ln9yzA6fnyg3lYy4IdCbnB1CFwZLGJfRj87CBJMJ76dcOUVkicjXQCj5knny8gcQFDzFdpIpBzD78xAbBPEXUUA+tY= Message-ID: <45F715DF.9060409@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:21:35 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6mRHQC.A.FGF.Vfw9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73718 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just curious if other people get periodic bothersome PM's from a user at overunity.com by the name Freedomfuel. He just sent me another PM --> Quote: --- Hi paul We have to face up to the fact that there are real national security and public safety issues with 'free energy' and that this is the reason that it has been kept hidden from the public. ... I don't want to disclose more information about how this technology can be applied as weaponry because this is something the public should not know about and you may repeat it in the forum. ... Why don't these black project scientists save the world by placing plans on the internet? If you knew how it was done and you were convinced it was harmless wouldn't you risk death to give something so valuable to the world? This is obviously classified technology so placing information about it on the internet will not help to give it to the public." --- What Freedomfuel doesn't want to accept is that my research is based on old classical physics! Furthermore, as just one of many examples, modern society is killing this planet from gas burning machines. Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 13:29:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DKTV41009631; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:29:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DKTUIH009615; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:29:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:29:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=dVyGvPsMIpnzunBio1pkiYKo4EGOpL3YyS6Sn2lCNFDLpnBONl6VO8ew/16BlPbg0pbErC0dw81yYmrlNUHmVrhvygqtpOD62gR8grFFG+Hv3UhI1zYE8iNvPAPXPBhvM1giRFYwZfnhJPuNws42bTbBRAW4bCeWuMTuGRHjkDM=; X-YMail-OSG: X9Wk91kVM1k.VRf532MJ9ZujADVtgh0YSiPcUX7knxyXnDQSLmSIH3WEiMSbdIl4e1bhrhUN8mQUBRIx4IZLlUZtjAuslnu6MXKvhRX9eMMgojSod7CT_kxW9KEkFZGPHaYmjNhkyS0RvyznsHoQSv7w Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:29:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Gibson Elliot Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diodes capturing Ambient energy - BINGO! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <45F710A0.3000100@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <5858.6792.qm@web83406.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73719 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try buying surplus night vision goggles, or another component that has the device you want. You might be able to scavenge parts... Just a thought G --- Paul Lowrance wrote: > More discoveries. It appears a HgTe photodiode is > just about the ultimate > material for this research. It has a band gap of > zero eV! Various amounts of Cd > (Hg[x-1]Cd[x]Te) increases the band gap to whatever > value you want. Here are > some interesting quotes --> > > Quote #1 from WikiPedia: > --- > Owing to its cost, the use of HgCdTe has so far been > restricted to the military > field and infrared astronomy research. Military > technology depends on HgCdTe for > night vision. In particular, the US air force makes > extensive use of HgCdTe on > all aircraft, and to equip airborne smart bombs. A > variety of heat-seeking > missiles are also equipped with HgCdTe detectors. > --- > > Quote #2 from WikiPedia: > --- > The main limitation of LWIR HgCdTe-based detectors > is that they need cooling to > temperatures near that of liquid nitrogen (77K), > ***TO REDUCE NOISE*** due to > thermally excited current carriers > --- > > Note the bold text in Quote #2. This material is so > noisy they need to cool it > to 77K, otherwise the voltage noise is incredible > ... bingo! > > This is so ironic. Why are most desirable things > come at such high cost? > Everyone loves ice cream, but the calories. I would > give just about anything to > experiment with a p-n HgTe photodiode, but it's > ridiculously expensive. Would > they even sell it to me? > > Furthermore, this material has ultra wide bandwidth. > > Mercury(II) cadmium(II) telluride (HgCdTe): > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HgCdTe > > band gap image diagram: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HgCdTe_Eg_vs_x.PNG > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > Paul Lowrance wrote: > > Hi, > > > > The following is an important consideration for > those interested in the > > very real upcoming technology that will capture > significant continuous > > energy day or night from ambient temperature > (surrounding air and Earth). > > > > Silicon and Germanium are what is called > *Indirect band gap* material. > > This means Si and Ge are inefficient at emitting > and receiving > > radiation. Although recent technology has made > it possible to make Si > > LED's, but that's more complex. > > > > The following link contains a very nice table of > different > > semiconductors showing which materials are > Indirect and Direct band gap --> > > > > > http://www.chemistry.patent-invent.com/chemistry/semiconductor_materials.html > > > > > > Therefore, it seems highly advantageous to > perform experiments using the > > following materials --> > > > > * Indium Antimonide (InSb) 0.17 eV > > * Indium Arsenide (InAs) = 0.354 eV > > > > InSb is the best choice for capturing room > temperature black body > > radiation. I believe the above are direct band > gap materials, which > > means they are efficient at receiving and > emitting radiation. > > > > It's too bad Germanium is indirect band gap. > Sure glad I discovered > > this before heading out to buy various Ge diodes. > :-) Tom Schum placed > > 32 germanium diodes in series, which resulted in > ~1 uV. What would be > > terribly interesting is to see the vast > difference an InSb or InAs LED > > would make. > > > > It seems unrealistic to use a $108 to $175 MID-IR > LED for a replicable > > experiment. Very few people would spend $108 > just to verify that > > ambient temperature energy is capturable. People > who already believe > > don't need it. One almost needs to pay a skeptic > to view an experiment > > that goes against their beliefs. > > > > There is one alternative, and that's the $10 1550 > nm LED, made of > > InGaAsP, but I'm not sure present instruments > could measure the effect > > at room temperature. I calculate the effect would > be ~100 million times > > less than the $175 4900 nm LED. The presence of > Ga greatly increases the > > band gap, unfortunately, which is why this LED is > only 1550 nm. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 13:30:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DKUhxZ010255; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:30:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DKUfN2010241; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:30:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:30:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:30:10 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73720 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> So most reseachers claim they (implicitly) know enough about the phenomena >> to improve the COP, but it is beneath them to test this claim?? > > No, that is not what I mean. Please read the message more carefully > and stop putting words in my mouth. You said in full: > The required level input power is governed by mundane electrochemical > considerations, such as the distance between the anode and the > cathode. These considerations are well understood, so there is no > point to bothering with them. We can improve the COP anytime, but > that proves nothing and contributes nothing to our understanding of > the phenomenon. It is hypothetical until you try it. It may be that the conditions which they think will increase the COP actual decrease the COP. > Anyone with knowledge of electrochemistry knows how to improve the > overall COP, when you define that as electrochemical power input > versus total output. Improving that ratio proves nothing. The only > thing you want to improve is the power of the cold fusion reaction, > which is separate and not directly correlated with electrolysis power. It is not about improving the ratio for the sake of improving the ratio. It is about testing the assumption that they know how to improve the ratio. Don't you understand the difference? > >> It is time for more science, and fewer "I-don't-do-engineering" excuses. > > Improving the COP would be engineering, not science. As I said > previously, it would also interfere with the science in many cases, > which is why it is not done. They claim that they know how to improve the COP of a cold fusion cell! So I cam calling on them to TEST the claim. This is not engineering request. It is a scientific request! Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 13:41:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DKf5m9026909; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:41:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DKf5mv026898; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:41:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:41:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZjoVwcqc5kLQWKvul+lcPj9mz6rMIp/NbmkcQKBSNWYGHzq95PjPtfir6ix+Ya+L8Ttz9is/wqY5Q0WdvaM5kiRDGOvqCSLayW70lf1AkG0WSMxiAhqbscjWJ5zxHgMhbujOdKtK2Mew+kWRtecvpECbRCpXYIoGOET6fWPIvaY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MVlLhb2Okx5QK969D3xs30YEjm7ByGjk9DDR8Eumwn/46ftULI/rbodmzq8+DpHnp6D8iZOT4qX7NFz4C6VqDHvOatHu/iPtPJ4fzLOJeAydUiIU+gfsvksz0/rZyoRcYfI6D/rJ06haUC5VuDkSbIef7x9YhMHLzqzLAIMPnRA= Message-ID: <45F71A69.2030006@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:40:57 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diodes capturing Ambient energy - BINGO! References: <5858.6792.qm@web83406.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5858.6792.qm@web83406.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73721 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's an idea. It could be difficult to verify what type of active material the FIR goggles use. I think public night vision goggles use InSb or similar material. The very expensive military night vision goggles use the expensive HgCdTe god material. Not sure, but perhaps the really cheap goggles use photoelectric material? I know the photoelectric effect generates DC voltage caused by temperature *differentials*. Regards, Paul Lowrance Gibson Elliot wrote: > Try buying surplus night vision goggles, or another > component that has the device you want. You might be > able to scavenge parts... > > Just a thought > > G > --- Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> More discoveries. It appears a HgTe photodiode is >> just about the ultimate >> material for this research. It has a band gap of >> zero eV! Various amounts of Cd >> (Hg[x-1]Cd[x]Te) increases the band gap to whatever >> value you want. Here are >> some interesting quotes --> >> >> Quote #1 from WikiPedia: >> --- >> Owing to its cost, the use of HgCdTe has so far been >> restricted to the military >> field and infrared astronomy research. Military >> technology depends on HgCdTe for >> night vision. In particular, the US air force makes >> extensive use of HgCdTe on >> all aircraft, and to equip airborne smart bombs. A >> variety of heat-seeking >> missiles are also equipped with HgCdTe detectors. >> --- >> >> Quote #2 from WikiPedia: >> --- >> The main limitation of LWIR HgCdTe-based detectors >> is that they need cooling to >> temperatures near that of liquid nitrogen (77K), >> ***TO REDUCE NOISE*** due to >> thermally excited current carriers >> --- >> >> Note the bold text in Quote #2. This material is so >> noisy they need to cool it >> to 77K, otherwise the voltage noise is incredible >> ... bingo! >> >> This is so ironic. Why are most desirable things >> come at such high cost? >> Everyone loves ice cream, but the calories. I would >> give just about anything to >> experiment with a p-n HgTe photodiode, but it's >> ridiculously expensive. Would >> they even sell it to me? >> >> Furthermore, this material has ultra wide bandwidth. >> >> Mercury(II) cadmium(II) telluride (HgCdTe): >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HgCdTe >> >> band gap image diagram: >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HgCdTe_Eg_vs_x.PNG >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> >> >> >> >> Paul Lowrance wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > The following is an important consideration for >> those interested in the >> > very real upcoming technology that will capture >> significant continuous >> > energy day or night from ambient temperature >> (surrounding air and Earth). >> > >> > Silicon and Germanium are what is called >> *Indirect band gap* material. >> > This means Si and Ge are inefficient at emitting >> and receiving >> > radiation. Although recent technology has made >> it possible to make Si >> > LED's, but that's more complex. >> > >> > The following link contains a very nice table of >> different >> > semiconductors showing which materials are >> Indirect and Direct band gap --> >> > >> > >> > http://www.chemistry.patent-invent.com/chemistry/semiconductor_materials.html >> > >> > >> > Therefore, it seems highly advantageous to >> perform experiments using the >> > following materials --> >> > >> > * Indium Antimonide (InSb) 0.17 eV >> > * Indium Arsenide (InAs) = 0.354 eV >> > >> > InSb is the best choice for capturing room >> temperature black body >> > radiation. I believe the above are direct band >> gap materials, which >> > means they are efficient at receiving and >> emitting radiation. >> > >> > It's too bad Germanium is indirect band gap. >> Sure glad I discovered >> > this before heading out to buy various Ge diodes. >> :-) Tom Schum placed >> > 32 germanium diodes in series, which resulted in >> ~1 uV. What would be >> > terribly interesting is to see the vast >> difference an InSb or InAs LED >> > would make. >> > >> > It seems unrealistic to use a $108 to $175 MID-IR >> LED for a replicable >> > experiment. Very few people would spend $108 >> just to verify that >> > ambient temperature energy is capturable. People >> who already believe >> > don't need it. One almost needs to pay a skeptic >> to view an experiment >> > that goes against their beliefs. >> > >> > There is one alternative, and that's the $10 1550 >> nm LED, made of >> > InGaAsP, but I'm not sure present instruments >> could measure the effect >> > at room temperature. I calculate the effect would >> be ~100 million times >> > less than the $175 4900 nm LED. The presence of >> Ga greatly increases the >> > band gap, unfortunately, which is why this LED is >> only 1550 nm. >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > Paul Lowrance >> > >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 13:47:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DKl5io029323; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:47:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DKl4YZ029307; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:47:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:47:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:41:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0KtuD.A.zJH.H3w9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73722 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > point to bothering with them. We can improve the COP anytime, but > > that proves nothing and contributes nothing to our understanding of > > the phenomenon. > >It is hypothetical until you try it. It may be that the conditions >which they think will increase the COP actual decrease the COP. Okay, hypothetical. But the methods have been common knowledge since around 1840, and I doubt you will find many people who do not believe they work. They work only a little, however. The COP cannot be improved enough to make a practical device, or any useful difference. If you doubt that the textbook methods of improving electrochemical efficiency work, I suggest you do some electrochemistry yourself. Calling these methods hypothetical is like saying that Faraday's laws are hypothetical, and you will not believe that coulumbs = amps * seconds until I prove it to you. Go test it yourself. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 14:15:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DLFQOM032281; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:15:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DLFOOX032272; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:15:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:15:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:15:00 -0600 Message-ID: <004701c765b4$b1c42950$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcdlrZsl5dj/CdehS8W1i+Q7qr9Q0gABrPuQ In-Reply-To: <45F715DF.9060409@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73723 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > What Freedomfuel doesn't want to accept is that my research is based on old classical physics! Furthermore, as just one of many examples, modern society is killing this planet from gas burning machines. Actually, they would be more interested in your research if you could prove it is compliant with every known theory in modern physics, first. And then, being in full compliance, you would also have to show your research expands upon the known knowledge, otherwise it is completely meaningless. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 14:21:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DLLlQG011027; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:21:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DLLjta011003; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:21:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:21:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hp2B964Go+NScOUsU5iOgi52A1JU0VeRsXALVkJGqRukivR+SniBymSm1YUWXinIz6aHgTaiv9AVig/MRW77NWJqBCVNbpzTovXmSOBIiKzluRUBrluOYxDB3HSYWVtZ9XhmBZAz6U1gw7HGSdNaqdAWOzo7K3EjJtIXXoKOOpc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rcGgF4kbEznlz/bY3g4DI6P9zbjgUJUmQDLYfZeuJKjDEQWf7rAzNN9s9M8PPj9xDNaG6ToWkrrksHip0LAUXSbdPR9jH6XSHiJ6H95snNsNKDkxJ9fmtlJ92MmY9xjWQbOccFiqGw/t87u5IaYnlDDd2+4jCfpyMkKuE3lVX5M= Message-ID: <45F723F2.2020008@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:21:38 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <004701c765b4$b1c42950$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004701c765b4$b1c42950$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73724 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Paul, > >> What Freedomfuel doesn't want to accept is that my research is based on > old classical physics! Furthermore, as just one of many examples, modern > society is killing this planet from gas burning machines. > > Actually, they would be more interested in your research if you could prove > it is compliant with every known theory in modern physics, first. And then, > being in full compliance, you would also have to show your research expands > upon the known knowledge, otherwise it is completely meaningless. > > Dave > No, the "thugs" are concerned about the release of advanced technology. You're thinking of the science community, which does indeed require entirely new theories to at least predict everything present theories predict, and rightfully so. :-) Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 15:02:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DM1wH4020208; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:01:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DM1v8f020196; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:01:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:01:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c765bb$334f1920$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <5858.6792.qm@web83406.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <45F71A69.2030006@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diodes capturing Ambient energy - BINGO! Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:01:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73725 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy Paul, You may try contacting Leupold & Stevens Instrument Company in Beaverton/Portland, Oregon. They do some work in this area with night vision scopes. They are good people. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diodes capturing Ambient energy - BINGO! > That's an idea. It could be difficult to verify what type of active > material the FIR goggles use. I think public night vision goggles use InSb > or similar material. The very expensive military night vision goggles use > the expensive HgCdTe god material. Not sure, but perhaps the really cheap > goggles use photoelectric material? I know the photoelectric effect > generates DC voltage caused by temperature *differentials*. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > Gibson Elliot wrote: > > Try buying surplus night vision goggles, or another > > component that has the device you want. You might be > > able to scavenge parts... > > > > Just a thought > > > > G > > --- Paul Lowrance wrote: > > > >> More discoveries. It appears a HgTe photodiode is > >> just about the ultimate > >> material for this research. It has a band gap of > >> zero eV! Various amounts of Cd > >> (Hg[x-1]Cd[x]Te) increases the band gap to whatever > >> value you want. Here are > >> some interesting quotes --> > >> > >> Quote #1 from WikiPedia: > >> --- > >> Owing to its cost, the use of HgCdTe has so far been > >> restricted to the military > >> field and infrared astronomy research. Military > >> technology depends on HgCdTe for > >> night vision. In particular, the US air force makes > >> extensive use of HgCdTe on > >> all aircraft, and to equip airborne smart bombs. A > >> variety of heat-seeking > >> missiles are also equipped with HgCdTe detectors. > >> --- > >> > >> Quote #2 from WikiPedia: > >> --- > >> The main limitation of LWIR HgCdTe-based detectors > >> is that they need cooling to > >> temperatures near that of liquid nitrogen (77K), > >> ***TO REDUCE NOISE*** due to > >> thermally excited current carriers > >> --- > >> > >> Note the bold text in Quote #2. This material is so > >> noisy they need to cool it > >> to 77K, otherwise the voltage noise is incredible > >> ... bingo! > >> > >> This is so ironic. Why are most desirable things > >> come at such high cost? > >> Everyone loves ice cream, but the calories. I would > >> give just about anything to > >> experiment with a p-n HgTe photodiode, but it's > >> ridiculously expensive. Would > >> they even sell it to me? > >> > >> Furthermore, this material has ultra wide bandwidth. > >> > >> Mercury(II) cadmium(II) telluride (HgCdTe): > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HgCdTe > >> > >> band gap image diagram: > >> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HgCdTe_Eg_vs_x.PNG > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > The following is an important consideration for > >> those interested in the > >> > very real upcoming technology that will capture > >> significant continuous > >> > energy day or night from ambient temperature > >> (surrounding air and Earth). > >> > > >> > Silicon and Germanium are what is called > >> *Indirect band gap* material. > >> > This means Si and Ge are inefficient at emitting > >> and receiving > >> > radiation. Although recent technology has made > >> it possible to make Si > >> > LED's, but that's more complex. > >> > > >> > The following link contains a very nice table of > >> different > >> > semiconductors showing which materials are > >> Indirect and Direct band gap --> > >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.chemistry.patent-invent.com/chemistry/semiconductor_materials.html > >> > > >> > > >> > Therefore, it seems highly advantageous to > >> perform experiments using the > >> > following materials --> > >> > > >> > * Indium Antimonide (InSb) 0.17 eV > >> > * Indium Arsenide (InAs) = 0.354 eV > >> > > >> > InSb is the best choice for capturing room > >> temperature black body > >> > radiation. I believe the above are direct band > >> gap materials, which > >> > means they are efficient at receiving and > >> emitting radiation. > >> > > >> > It's too bad Germanium is indirect band gap. > >> Sure glad I discovered > >> > this before heading out to buy various Ge diodes. > >> :-) Tom Schum placed > >> > 32 germanium diodes in series, which resulted in > >> ~1 uV. What would be > >> > terribly interesting is to see the vast > >> difference an InSb or InAs LED > >> > would make. > >> > > >> > It seems unrealistic to use a $108 to $175 MID-IR > >> LED for a replicable > >> > experiment. Very few people would spend $108 > >> just to verify that > >> > ambient temperature energy is capturable. People > >> who already believe > >> > don't need it. One almost needs to pay a skeptic > >> to view an experiment > >> > that goes against their beliefs. > >> > > >> > There is one alternative, and that's the $10 1550 > >> nm LED, made of > >> > InGaAsP, but I'm not sure present instruments > >> could measure the effect > >> > at room temperature. I calculate the effect would > >> be ~100 million times > >> > less than the $175 4900 nm LED. The presence of > >> Ga greatly increases the > >> > band gap, unfortunately, which is why this LED is > >> only 1550 nm. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Paul Lowrance > >> > > >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 > 7:19 PM > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 15:05:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DM5NJ3021479; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:05:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DM5LRJ021464; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:05:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:05:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c765bb$adbd9100$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <004701c765b4$b1c42950$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <45F723F2.2020008@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:05:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73726 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Howdy Paul, I thought you may have picked up on my comment regarding light has "weight" and expand on it. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions > David Thomson wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > > >> What Freedomfuel doesn't want to accept is that my research is based on > > old classical physics! Furthermore, as just one of many examples, > > modern > > society is killing this planet from gas burning machines. > > > > Actually, they would be more interested in your research if you could > > prove > > it is compliant with every known theory in modern physics, first. And > > then, > > being in full compliance, you would also have to show your research > > expands > > upon the known knowledge, otherwise it is completely meaningless. > > > > Dave > > > > > No, the "thugs" are concerned about the release of advanced technology. > You're thinking of the science community, which does indeed require > entirely new theories to at least predict everything present theories > predict, and rightfully so. :-) > > > > Regards, > Paul > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 > 7:19 PM > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 15:19:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DMIun9000621; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:18:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DMItjP000612; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:18:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:18:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=sNhEEe9fyuCzr7Znii2NsyEHnLDbuIEVe3Fts4S0AqjvnOZxvxCSFdmGTJimU3OetRRP04QoF6x+lB2p58DJUNVvXu4AqsfOkRtGMAW8hezCDC5F42Hc9JP7KZwnnyMpVcvvYXbvCKJk8tJ0PpQvNKftxLEXOUjw1f/sSKEGi0Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=j2WB3RPdEBoexiZBWjl23S8EBMxv3QbGPNlqhHLi/P+t0Yg7mrnI6npn6iieRB/guNankZJNHqNnteX0aTIT0ipE0d06zJZsOgFgoeSlJHiQrRJrVvZpYxVwhs1Xsut7yjc6lzlpTrbfqiaPOhOlFtz19rAwfCWQHhSHSLtacLY= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:18:53 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313120123.03793de0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_40279_6121644.1173824333486" References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313102845.036e41f0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313120123.03793de0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73727 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_40279_6121644.1173824333486 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/14/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > >You say they are experts of pancaking buildings and yet you don't > >cite a single case where they have pulled a single floor (in an > >otherwise unweakened building) and had it pancake at freefall speeds. > > This has happened hundreds of times. NIST and others have detailed > records of such events. Ahuh, and yet no details are ever availible. I'm not questioning if when a floor is pulled if further floors worth of destruction will occur, obviously it will. The question is in a building such as the twin towers or other tall conventional buildings if a floor near the top is pulled if the entire thing will collapse at near freefall speeds. I would expect in the case of the WTC that a lot of it would collapse, but I would think it might stop 2/3rds of the way down, and at the very least to occur far more slowly than freefall speeds which means that the building offered 0 resistance which is at odds with the conservation of energy. Just saying 'pancaking has happened' without any details is meaningless, I don't doubt that pancaking will cause significant damage. I once saw the remains of a parking garage > that collapsed straight down onto $100,000 worth of minicomputer > equipment, because one floor gave way. It was MY company's computer > equipment! (The insurance paid for it.) > > When a single floor of a building falls down, it strikes with many > times more force than any building is designed to withstand. > > - Jed > > ------=_Part_40279_6121644.1173824333486 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/14/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

>You say they are experts of pancaking buildings and yet you don't
>cite a single case where they have pulled a single floor (in an
>otherwise unweakened building) and had it pancake at freefall speeds.

This has happened hundreds of times. NIST and others have detailed
records of such events.

Ahuh, and yet no details are ever availible.
I'm not questioning if when a floor is pulled if further floors worth of destruction will occur, obviously it will.
The question is in a building such as the twin towers or other tall conventional buildings if a floor near the top is pulled if the entire thing will collapse at near freefall speeds.
I would expect in the case of the WTC that a lot of it would collapse, but I would think it might stop 2/3rds of the way down, and at the very least to occur far more slowly than freefall speeds which means that the building offered 0 resistance which is at odds with the conservation of energy.

Just saying 'pancaking has happened' without any details is meaningless, I don't doubt that pancaking will cause significant damage.

I once saw the remains of a parking garage
that collapsed straight down onto $100,000 worth of minicomputer
equipment, because one floor gave way. It was MY company's computer
equipment! (The insurance paid for it.)

When a single floor of a building falls down, it strikes with many
times more force than any building is designed to withstand.

- Jed


------=_Part_40279_6121644.1173824333486-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 15:28:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DMS2B8003649; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:28:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DMS1i3003635; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:28:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:28:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:27:32 -0600 Message-ID: <004e01c765be$d2cde910$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcdltfD9yd8wWTpTQe6XPcffMvcapAACBfPQ In-Reply-To: <45F723F2.2020008@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73728 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > No, the "thugs" are concerned about the release of advanced technology. > You're thinking of the science community, There is technically no such thing as "advanced technology" that is not defined as "science that works." The imagined "thugs" are no more than scientists asking you to put up or shut up. Either you can demonstrate that your "research" adheres to all the known science laws, and then improves on them, or you cannot. You ought to be careful; you are starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist with an imaginary agenda. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 15:59:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DMxOXK018418; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:59:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DMxNbm018404; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:59:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:59:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bTXC2JK0C1lgCx6OcyJyDsL4bnmuEiVNSJuG1qZA1/O2iKBfN9VfzLD8/cBplpnBIfPa+LUnsnq36ZP8B9H3jKHuSHrAzkPvRAO/hM8AGZYWwtN8E5ffF5LEXn9G/f5gcQudKy8dJlJSypnSGzaS7A/NROLEOTmonVlnN8I5COw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Xz77TcoWWnycKUhxXnPHWfeiiakfm8+xE9V9MkEzRNnYKmbDrXVyM4OgNeEOMEcn14+ZL+Ye0Cbo9VvMf7+CcXXTz58D+bQnRHG92zYhCtxsv8Tlj6xVVDsFW2HlLvD1B0bwzPO9AGKgYUkpca7KwB8nK4Qi510yVLCHNLmiEBQ= Message-ID: <45F73AD4.9050909@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:59:16 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <004e01c765be$d2cde910$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004e01c765be$d2cde910$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73729 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Paul, > >> No, the "thugs" are concerned about the release of advanced technology. >> You're thinking of the science community, > > There is technically no such thing as "advanced technology" that is not > defined as "science that works." Advanced technology is leading edge technology. > The imagined "thugs" are no more than scientists asking you to put up or > shut up. No, my definition of thugs is people working for the cause to suppress technology considered dangerous in the hands of terrorists or rogue countries such as Iran or North Korea. > Either you can demonstrate that your "research" adheres to all the > known science laws, and then improves on them, or you cannot. All measuring devices have input capacitance. When you measure thermal noise for instance you are viewing a capacitor that was charged by such thermal noise. If that breaks your laws of physics then so be it. It does not break any laws by my understanding of physics. > You ought to be careful; you are starting to sound like a conspiracy > theorist with an imaginary agenda. > No, I go by the laws of probability. In Unix security world there's a well known Mandrake install mode called paranoid mode. An SA is wise to install a Unix server in such a mode. From my POV it is called cheap insurance. The U.S. military does not want weapons of mass destruction in the hands of terrorists or rogue countries. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that an half intelligent group would use simple tactics to suppress technology that may lead to such weapons of mass destruction. I'm a little surprised in your comments since IMHO they show very little foresight and intelligence. Are you the guy with the Aether theory of everything? If so then when are you going to start on the list provided in another thread? I think the single electron double slit experiment would be a great start. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 16:09:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DN9SLd012088; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:09:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DN9LSn011972; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:09:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:09:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:09:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2DN9J51011952 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73730 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> Jed I think you mean the ratio of chemical energy out (energy stored in electrolysis products H2 and O2, which you can recover as heat by recombining them) to electrical energy in. This ratio is close to but cannot exceed one, and not only won't it make any useful difference to improve it, but since the difference is not lost but recovered as heat, it won't make any difference _at all_ to the overall COP, which will always be: COP = (electrical_in + nuclear)/electrical_in = 1 + nuclear/electrical_in agreed? -> Ed The title of your paper: "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte" comprises a surprising confusion in electrochemical terms. At least I thought it was only in the title until I read the abstract: "a sample of palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in D2O+LiOD" Can you see your error Ed? I am just making sure you are like Jed and myself the humble type who gladly admit their errors and even go out of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike two other famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die :) -- Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> > point to bothering with them. We can improve the COP anytime, but >> > that proves nothing and contributes nothing to our understanding of >> > the phenomenon. >> >>It is hypothetical until you try it. It may be that the conditions >>which they think will increase the COP actual decrease the COP. > > Okay, hypothetical. But the methods have been common knowledge since > around 1840, and I doubt you will find many people who do not believe > they work. They work only a little, however. The COP cannot be > improved enough to make a practical device, or any useful difference. > > If you doubt that the textbook methods of improving electrochemical > efficiency work, I suggest you do some electrochemistry yourself. > Calling these methods hypothetical is like saying that Faraday's laws > are hypothetical, and you will not believe that coulumbs = amps * > seconds until I prove it to you. Go test it yourself. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 16:14:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DNEZLh026169; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:14:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DNEYDa026154; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:14:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:14:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:17:09 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73731 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > -> Jed > I think you mean the ratio of chemical energy out (energy stored in electrolysis products H2 and O2, which you can recover as heat by recombining them) to electrical energy in. This ratio is close to but cannot exceed one, and not only won't it make any useful difference to improve it, but since the difference is not lost but recovered as heat, it won't make any difference _at all_ to the overall COP, which will always be: > COP = (electrical_in + nuclear)/electrical_in = 1 + nuclear/electrical_in > agreed? > > -> Ed > The title of your paper: > "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte" > comprises a surprising confusion in electrochemical terms. > At least I thought it was only in the title until I read the abstract: > "a sample of palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in D2O+LiOD" > Can you see your error Ed? I am just making sure you are like Jed and myself the humble type who gladly admit their errors and even go out of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike two other famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die :) > I don't see what your problem is. Ed - > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:41 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > > > >>Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> >>>>point to bothering with them. We can improve the COP anytime, but >>>>that proves nothing and contributes nothing to our understanding of >>>>the phenomenon. >>> >>>It is hypothetical until you try it. It may be that the conditions >>>which they think will increase the COP actual decrease the COP. >> >>Okay, hypothetical. But the methods have been common knowledge since >>around 1840, and I doubt you will find many people who do not believe >>they work. They work only a little, however. The COP cannot be >>improved enough to make a practical device, or any useful difference. >> >>If you doubt that the textbook methods of improving electrochemical >>efficiency work, I suggest you do some electrochemistry yourself. >>Calling these methods hypothetical is like saying that Faraday's laws >>are hypothetical, and you will not believe that coulumbs = amps * >>seconds until I prove it to you. Go test it yourself. >> >>- Jed >> > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 16:16:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DNFopA014870; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:15:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DNFnlR014858; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:15:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009201c765c5$8ac16000$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:15:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73732 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote:- <> This COP you are talking about is the ratio of input electrical power to output heat. Jed was trying to explain to you that this figure is only marginally relevant to improving the CF reaction. This topic was discussed right back at the beginning, almost 17 years ago. This COP ratio that you think is so important is somewhat like reducing the force necessary to push the accelerator (gas) pedal in a car and then claiming that halving the foot pressure has doubled the efficiency of the motor... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 16:29:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DNTXxv026049; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:29:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DNTVWx026023; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:29:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:29:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:29:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2DNTTiE026002 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73733 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'll let you find the error yourself it's quite obvious. Same error in the two quotes. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer ... >> -> Ed >> The title of your paper: >> "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte" >> comprises a surprising confusion in electrochemical terms. >> At least I thought it was only in the title until I read the abstract: >> "a sample of palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in D2O+LiOD" >> Can you see your error Ed? I am just making sure you are like Jed and myself the humble type who gladly admit their errors and even go out of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike two other famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die :) >> > > I don't see what your problem is. > > Ed > - >> Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 16:33:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DNXG8Z027477; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:33:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DNXFH8027456; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:33:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:33:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sHkXU5qtC3i74oN0gLRxsdXtOynK06mSl5trlbeky5abpIkWhMtZcgnwTE872JOHmie4sTSI5U90wNH3SbieKKX+jIvnQ2Z7MvXtRjE4YayUQu50STs1V1NiH4Os+jeS+nPjvaAZQT2yx4WCLU+wDpzcEGQBECVbIQzV6+kfB5Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BfVF8TafHIRcW5ITCOCW/IbA6AAa7nL1X7qJXn6Jb3bGVf2wOhkSgcEDIaXvZ6sKWL1hsYdqXdJsxdBwJkEuxSY9fbV9m7TZAtedu47MKWc7kNgIBqRDsXJ8BVELJMuyQKrbr4McTL9+k6UC4xSs5r/932bBTqPG/6a6a/1AgTk= Message-ID: <45F742C6.8070109@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Diodes capturing Ambient energy - BINGO! References: <5858.6792.qm@web83406.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <45F71A69.2030006@gmail.com> <001701c765bb$334f1920$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001701c765bb$334f1920$c905a8c0@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73734 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: > Howdy Paul, > You may try contacting Leupold & Stevens Instrument Company in > Beaverton/Portland, Oregon. They do some work in this area with night > vision scopes. They are good people. > Richard Hi Richard, Thanks. I'll look them up. R.C.Macaulay wrote: > Howdy Paul, > I thought you may have picked up on my comment regarding light has > "weight" and expand on it. > Richard I probably missed it. What thread did you post it in? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 16:56:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2DNuEur015614; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:56:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2DNuCSD015591; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:56:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:56:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:55:13 -0600 Message-ID: <004f01c765cb$20bc8260$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acdlw5ZrRPbi95nYR9qm0PjwoT/jqAABccxA In-Reply-To: <45F73AD4.9050909@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73735 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > No, my definition of thugs is people working for the cause to suppress technology considered dangerous in the hands of terrorists or rogue countries such as Iran or North Korea. You mean like machine guns, hand grenades, and nuclear bombs? It's a little late for that, don't you think? And what business do you have providing technology to rogue countries in the first place? > If that breaks your laws of physics then so be it. What does it matter to you whether it breaks my laws of physics? It's the establishment you need to impress with your extensive knowledge, not me. If you claim to have new technology, you need to show the science behind it does not violate any known laws of physics and adds something new that we didn't know before. Certainly your "new technology" doesn't have anything to do with using a battery in a new way, upside-down for example. What do you think you could possibly have figured out that hundreds of thousands of top minds working directly for the military haven't already thought of? Unless you have found a new way to quantify physics, or added new laws, you haven't got any "new technology." > > You ought to be careful; you are starting to sound like a conspiracy > > theorist with an imaginary agenda. > No, I go by the laws of probability. And the laws of probability prevents you from sounding like a conspiracy theorist because...? It didn't catch that. You're still sounding like a conspiracy theorist. > Are you the guy with the Aether theory of everything? > If so then when are you going to start on the list provided in another thread? Are you telling me what to do? Would you like me to tell you what to do? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 17:15:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E0F06o020918; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:15:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E0Ew6m020900; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:14:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:14:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000301c765cd$ccf30c50$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 01:14:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2E0ErAC020880 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73736 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Take your time, I'll go offline now. Talk to you tomorrow. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > I'll let you find the error yourself it's quite obvious. Same error in the two quotes. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > ... >>> -> Ed >>> The title of your paper: >>> "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte" >>> comprises a surprising confusion in electrochemical terms. >>> At least I thought it was only in the title until I read the abstract: >>> "a sample of palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in D2O+LiOD" >>> Can you see your error Ed? I am just making sure you are like Jed and myself the humble type who gladly admit their errors and even go out of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike two other famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die :) >>> >> >> I don't see what your problem is. >> >> Ed >> - >>> Michel > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 17:26:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E0QQ40024605; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:26:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E0QPeT024591; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:26:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:26:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:25:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73737 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >>> point to bothering with them. We can improve the COP anytime, but >>> that proves nothing and contributes nothing to our understanding of >>> the phenomenon. >> >> It is hypothetical until you try it. It may be that the conditions >> which they think will increase the COP actual decrease the COP. > > Okay, hypothetical. But the methods have been common knowledge since > around 1840, and I doubt you will find many people who do not believe > they work. They work only a little, however. I am not talking about increasing the COP of a electrochemical cell. That would mean getting the cell to generate more electrical power. I am taking about increasing the COP of a CF cell which happens to be partly electrochemical. This means getting the cell to generate more heat for the same or less input power. Ed claims he knows how this can be done. Why not turn his claim into a testable conjecture? > If you doubt that the textbook methods of improving electrochemical > efficiency work, I suggest you do some electrochemistry yourself. > Calling these methods hypothetical is like saying that Faraday's laws > are hypothetical, and you will not believe that coulumbs = amps * > seconds until I prove it to you. Go test it yourself. When you combine electrochemistry with CF you are entering uncharted territory. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 17:36:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E0a7eB027266; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:36:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E0a6k7027254; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:36:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:36:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=au7m37uhk3TzdwcAWCq+t//AWqkdyf5hL4Q0SOHH8n3MqnBawbB4cz214wOev7oM10fOuAh94tqSHLNF0TXI6a/ZpiJxIbrFxkCnxMdQmWPtqjPwguEpc4hHhKhR86IdpyzaREmkD4Q5agVwMeLr2LGWVGYInywKl+wiouHFcfY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=C8+VDKkvGfEsfXPVuut6zKeuuzLgdvv22bXBfmy3UTNUny8I/JV9NiiasNWGI42J1/kngaQyfLcDErhEFA0gw3AgsAowwFquNlPW70ULagMMZLN5ehD4OKLKIyoY+dQmS2APeIrwqwxgB3SeYl6nrQYFbdAAjtxFnsaEg/cFvUM= Message-ID: <45F7517E.80606@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:35:58 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <004f01c765cb$20bc8260$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004f01c765cb$20bc8260$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1JYVbB.A.upG.1N09FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73738 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No offense, but IMHO this conversation is silly and a waste of time. I generally prefer to converse with people at Vo that are primarily interested in research geared toward generating so-called "free energy." Are you are working on such research? If it's fine with you, lets try and put an end to this conversation. See my comments below. David Thomson wrote: > Hi Paul, > >> No, my definition of thugs is people working for the cause to suppress > technology considered dangerous in the hands of terrorists or rogue > countries such as Iran or North Korea. > > You mean like machine guns, hand grenades, and nuclear bombs? No. > And what business do you have providing > technology to rogue countries in the first place? I am researching technology that would move energy contained in ambient temperature as a source of usable power. >> If that breaks your laws of physics then so be it. > > What does it matter to you whether it breaks my laws of physics? This needs clarification since it makes no difference to me if it breaks your laws of Aether physics. No offense, but for the moment I have zero interest in an Aether theory. > It's the establishment you need to impress with your extensive knowledge, not me. If > you claim to have new technology, you need to show the science behind it > does not violate any known laws of physics and adds something new that we > didn't know before. People often confuse technology, theory, and interpretation of a theory. My primary focus is on designing a so-called "free energy" machine based on magnetic avalanche theory. It's my goal to design a machine that is self-running, provides appreciable continuous usable power, and requires an appreciably small amount of energy to start such a machine. That is a technological goal. Second focus is to explain the technology in terms of physics. > Certainly your "new technology" doesn't have anything > to do with using a battery in a new way, upside-down for example. What do > you think you could possibly have figured out that hundreds of thousands of > top minds working directly for the military haven't already thought of? I see that as fuzzy logic. There always has and will be individuals that make breakthroughs in technology, theories, etc. etc. > Unless you have found a new way to quantify physics, or added new laws, you > haven't got any "new technology." I see that as fuzzy logic. Individuals have and will continue to develop new technology based on present physics theories. >>> You ought to be careful; you are starting to sound like a conspiracy >>> theorist with an imaginary agenda. > >> No, I go by the laws of probability. > > And the laws of probability prevents you from sounding like a conspiracy > theorist because...? It didn't catch that. You're still sounding like a > conspiracy theorist. Allow me to clarify. I place high probability the U.S. government would try and prevent new technology that could easily lead to weapons of mass destruction. I place high probability there are highly intelligent people within the U.S. government. I place high probability such intelligent people are attempting to prevent such technology. >> Are you the guy with the Aether theory of everything? >> If so then when are you going to start on the list provided in another > thread? > > Are you telling me what to do? Would you like me to tell you what to do? > Please take a look at what you replied to. Both of my statements were questions. My two questions did not tell you what to do. Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 18:03:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E13Imi002361; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:03:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E13GqJ002350; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:03:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:03:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:01:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <009201c765c5$8ac16000$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73739 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote:- > < So I cam calling on them to TEST the claim. This is not engineering request. > It is a scientific request!>> > > This COP you are talking about is the ratio of input electrical power to > output heat. Jed was trying to explain to you that this figure is only > marginally relevant to improving the CF reaction. This topic was discussed > right back at the beginning, almost 17 years ago. This COP ratio that you > think is so important is somewhat like reducing the force necessary to push > the accelerator (gas) pedal in a car and then claiming that halving the foot > pressure has doubled the efficiency of the motor... > > Nick Palmer > It is more like the difference between burning gasoline as a liquid vs gasoline as a vapour. While you need to exert some effort to vaporise the gasoline, the COP is still much bigger. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 18:05:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E154w6002929; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:05:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E152uf002906; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:05:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:05:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:04:27 -0600 Message-ID: <005a01c765d4$c058ddb0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acdl0R88c07jqsSgQGGON/gp2lxXTgAAGFPg In-Reply-To: <45F7517E.80606@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73740 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > No offense, but IMHO this conversation is silly and a waste of time. I generally prefer to converse with people at Vo that are primarily interested in research geared toward generating so-called "free energy." Are you are working on such research? If it's fine with you, lets try and put an end to this conversation. Funny how focused and serious you become when it is your work being criticized isn't it? You seem not to think much about giving me a long list of other theories that I have to explain with my work, but such requirements don't apply to you. You think you are special, and above the system. For some reason (and you'll come up with another long list, I'm sure), the rules don't apply to you. > I am researching technology that would move energy contained in ambient temperature as a source of usable power. This has already been "proved" as impossible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics You are wasting your time and making a fool of yourself for questioning the establishment. Unless you can fully explain every known physics law and something new, nobody is going to take you seriously. You might as well spend the next three years in seclusion, if necessary, and not waste anybody else's time with your unwanted theories. > No offense, but for the moment I have zero interest in an Aether theory. No offense, but at the moment I think your theory is a total waste of bandwidth, since even the wikiwizzes know that what you want to do is impossible. BTW, do you suppose your zero interest in the Aether Physics Model has anything to do with your long list of goals for me that will take years to flesh out? Are you actually admitting that you wouldn't even read my work if I did work out a complete comparison between the Aether Physics Model and all known physics theories? That rather puts your genuineness into proper perspective, doesn't it? > People often confuse technology, theory, and interpretation of a theory. My primary focus is on designing a so-called "free energy" machine based on magnetic avalanche theory. It's my goal to design a machine that is self-running, provides appreciable continuous usable power, and requires an appreciably small amount of energy to start such a machine. That is a technological goal. Second focus is to explain the technology in terms of physics. Talk about a hypocrite! You have this wild-eyed concept of breaking known laws of physics and you haven't even worked out the math, yet. I have presented a fully quantified Aether (which means I have worked out the math), and also provided new testable physics laws and a fundamentally important electron binding energy equation. Yet, you tell me I have to solve all of the Universe before you will listen, and you want us to listen to your wild dreams? > I see that as fuzzy logic. For you, it should be called hypocrisy and dreaming. > There always has and will be individuals that make breakthroughs in technology, theories, etc. etc. Not if you can prevent it, right? >>> No, I go by the laws of probability. > >> And the laws of probability prevents you from sounding like a conspiracy >> theorist because...? It didn't catch that. You're still sounding like a >> conspiracy theorist. > Allow me to clarify. I place high probability the U.S. government would try and prevent new technology that could easily lead to weapons of mass destruction. I place high probability there are highly intelligent people within the U.S. government. I place high probability such intelligent people are attempting to prevent such technology. Your clarification makes it absolutely evident that you imagine a conspiracy. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 18:45:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E1jn05024297; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:45:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E1jltX024276; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:45:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=ZljTDGgvidnpr4Bvv9dtuKH71kujhTI5OYGzR5SFDlBTLqyAAYz/r27halZ6kS0VSs/FHgSkYabh+DsTc0ysyJpAUxC2FAUjhzFNea+WxgT3hiVmXL23eJAhht2Y6BgsfM4RcFxkeYV3bDffZ4P5bYxUB/iOZUBsl+bWQdWOf9g=; X-YMail-OSG: A9g6IjMVM1kSCtsnFskNsHVXyzLcK5aNhRlQ1aYiZOAs3mpOkh4Hh2d_JaHIEQOw52Xv0J6c06zjdZaIj1UgoAMpXtFOTrKXJsTBggkGmFP8iuvSxBt4Mf_QMJv3nQZUn2u3y5u5Xj0mri6bWl23utI04A-- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:45:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <918483.52714.qm@web32813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73741 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Earthquake in NE Ohio Status: O X-Status: Loud Explosion effect similar to hypothesized scalar interferometry. Ravenna(Portage Co Ohio) Military arsenal near epicenter; Folks near center not experience shock wave but outwards from center shock wave evident at 3.6 on Richter scale. Effects predominant ALONG OHIO TURNPIKE FROM EAST TO WEST at least some 20 miles. Geologists were asked to comment why the quake sounded more like an airborne explosion then a regular earthquake whereby Hanson of regional earthquake center reported that the slatelike rock deposits of minerals in the OHIO area enables the rock sliding stresses upon underground fracturous collisons of sliding rock formations deep under the earth; but anyhoots he says three miles under the earth this happened, and because the rock is very acoustic or something, the loud booming noise from this collision goes straight through the earth and makes an auditory malfunction of sorts, where the booming noise seems omnipresent. Anyways I think I was about 5 miles from the epicenter, but reports near the center itself seem abscent on the explosive aspects, but reports many miles away from the epicenter seem to indicate typical reports of tremors where things seem to tremble for several seconds, yet nearer to the epicenter no such thing occured, it was a single loud vibration acomplished within a split second. This totally alarmed all of the resident towns along the Ohio Turnpike, but the effect was somewhat localized along this line from East to West, whereby no significant reports came from either Akron or Cleveland Ohio. I wonder if the center of an earthquake is like the eye of a hurricane; whereby the center shows little effects, but outwards from there the effects reveal themselves with distance? HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 18:47:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E1lfRH025383; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:47:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E1ldWj025359; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:47:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:47:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01c765da$bafbd290$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <005a01c765d4$c058ddb0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:47:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73742 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy David and Paul, Please don't throw things in the saloon in Dime Box Texas. Someone may break the mirror behind the bar with the picture of the "nekkid" woman and get a fight started. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 19:11:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E2BO5b004943; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:11:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E2BNWm004930; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:11:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:11:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:10:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Modified Double-Slit Experiment In-reply-to: <002801c76574$9efbeaf0$c905a8c0@xptower> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_zmHQx55XGGMupQ+kq1oiXA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73743 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_zmHQx55XGGMupQ+kq1oiXA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable R.C.Macaulay wrote: Harry wrote.. >An article on the work titled "Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality" recently published in Foundations of Physics, a prestigious, refereed academic journal, supports Albert Einstein=8Fs long-debated belief that quantum physic= s is incomplete. For eight decades the scientific community generally had supported Niels Bohr=8Fs ideas commonly known as the Copenhagen Interpretatio= n of Quantum Mechanics. In 1927, in his =BDPrinciple of Complementarity,=85 he asserted that in any experiment light shows only one aspect at a time, either it behaves as a wave or as a particle. Einstein was deeply troubled by that principle, since he could not accept that any external measurement would prevent light to reveal its full dual nature, according to Afshar. Th= e fundamental problem, however, seemed to be that one has to destroy the photon in order to measure either aspects of it. Then, once destroyed, ther= e is no light left to measure the other aspect. Howdy Harry,=20 Such a fascinating subject with no end of mystery. Some time back I posted = a fun experiment to twist one's mind. An old time movie house used a silvered sceen to receive the projected light. The screen had tiny perforations. One could stand behind the screen in the dark and see a perfect image of the movie ( in reverse). The fun begins when you think of positioning a mirror behind the first screen in order to "catch" the reverse image. Using a pris= m to project the original image on the face of the screen so to allow an unobstructed mirrored image to cascade back through the perforations and onto another mirror would result in cascading the images into infinity. What does all this mean.. time also has a "weight". Richard=20 You can do something similar with a video camera and a monitor. Connect the monitor to the video camera so it displays the the video image in real time, then point the video camera at the monitor.... Harry --Boundary_(ID_zmHQx55XGGMupQ+kq1oiXA) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [VO]:Re: Modified Double-Slit Experiment R.C.Macaulay wrote:

Harry wrote..
>An article on the work titled "Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality&qu= ot; recently
published in Foundations of Physics, a prestigious, refereed academic
journal, supports Albert Einstein=8Fs long-debated belief that quantum physic= s
is incomplete. For eight decades the scientific community generally had
supported Niels Bohr=8Fs ideas commonly known as the Copenhagen Interpretatio= n
of Quantum Mechanics. In 1927, in his =BDPrinciple of Complementarity,=85 he asserted that in any experiment light shows only one aspect at a time,
either it behaves as a wave or as a particle. Einstein was deeply troubled<= BR> by that principle, since he could not accept that any external measurement<= BR> would prevent light to reveal its full dual nature, according to Afshar. Th= e
fundamental problem, however, seemed to be that one has to destroy the
photon in order to measure either aspects of it. Then, once destroyed, ther= e
is no light left to measure the other aspect.

Howdy Harry,

Such a fascinating subject with no end of mystery. Some time back I posted = a fun experiment to twist one's mind. An old time movie house used a silvere= d sceen to receive the projected light. The screen had tiny perforations. On= e could stand behind the screen in the dark and see a perfect image of the m= ovie ( in reverse). The fun begins when you think  of positioning a mir= ror behind the first screen in order to "catch" the reverse image.= Using a prism to project the original  image on the face of the screen= so to allow an unobstructed mirrored image to cascade back through the perf= orations and onto another mirror would result in cascading the images into i= nfinity.

What does all this mean.. time also has a "weight".

Richard

You can do something similar with a video camera and a monitor= .
Connect the monitor to the video camera so it displays the the video
image in real time, then point the video camera at the monitor....
Harry





--Boundary_(ID_zmHQx55XGGMupQ+kq1oiXA)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 19:12:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E2C98U004788; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:12:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E2C3WA004668; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:12:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:12:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=C7vckzsvYHSZ9Q7RKe5Zc4x0np2/K+LH77gvz0q58T1SFn4x3BTslhz3IQhaY9b6qNAyTamSoQPoukg0ZiTTj5hP4j3KKwGOWa0X1ZL97wJRHy/nKiG3RCg5urR5Mo/4BunGwfXCoHF4MD/KGugO/lRNeVkLO3pGn57uv2Vbc5Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hf+3ohp7a4IVR9Ty812V3negj3CfpwZlHyAqZGBFTXAc0Zafsek3cxNPtxw6wPRcG4C3XAHGEmvLeGMMTgqnY1yI/SSxyAqAJRVDRSGEQ1g7/ELp0epMoBzyn7/JRQUnmBhqN9GtmBRZvJON4GL7z4xYFy1ytjpAr1bsGELH7RE= Message-ID: <45F767F5.3070005@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:11:49 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <005a01c765d4$c058ddb0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <005a01c765d4$c058ddb0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73744 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Paul, > >> No offense, but IMHO this conversation is silly and a waste of time. I > generally prefer to converse with people at Vo that are primarily interested > in research geared toward generating so-called "free energy." Are you are > working on such research? If it's fine with you, lets try and put an end to > this conversation. > > Funny how focused and serious you become when it is your work being > criticized isn't it? Show me where I was not as focused and series in your thread. No, really. Lets do this and get it out of the way so perhaps one day you'll get a glimpse how you warp things to fit your desires. > You seem not to think much about giving me a long list > of other theories that I have to explain with my work Seriously, can you comprehend the simple concept that your extensive Aether theory needs to at least predict present experiments and effects? > , but such requirements > don't apply to you. Can you understand the difference between my research focused on capturing usable ambient temperature energy and your extensive Aether theory? >> I am researching technology that would move energy contained in ambient > temperature as a source of usable power. > > This has already been "proved" as impossible: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics You need to learn the difference between theory and interpretation. Furthermore, please read the Wikipedia page to see a well accepted 2nd law quote, by Physicist P.W. Bridgman, "There are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions of it." It's a simple fact that a measuring instrument such as an oscilloscope has input capacitance and when thermal voltage noise is measured you are seeing voltage stored in a capacitor caused by such thermal noise? There's nothing to dispute or theorize about that, unless one has the mind of a child. > You are wasting your time and making a fool of yourself for questioning the > establishment. LOL, are you kidding me? Is this really Dave the Aether theory guy, lol. > Unless you can fully explain every known physics law and > something new, nobody is going to take you seriously. Sorry, you are the one with the Aether theory. I make no such claims. :-) >> No offense, but for the moment I have zero interest in an Aether theory. > > No offense, but at the moment I think your theory is a total waste of > bandwidth, since even the wikiwizzes know that what you want to do is > impossible. Let me know anytime you want to challenge the simple fact that thermal noise can charge a capacitor Dave. > BTW, do you suppose your zero interest in the Aether Physics Model has > anything to do with your long list of goals for me that will take years to > flesh out? Just trying to help you brother, as several other people here. > Are you actually admitting that you wouldn't even read my work > if I did work out a complete comparison between the Aether Physics Model and > all known physics theories? This is silly because you need to have basic concepts explained to you. Allow me to explain. I will have no interest in your Aether theory until you can at least claim your theory accurately predicts the small list provided. Yes, it is a small list in comparison to what you would need to predict. >> People often confuse technology, theory, and interpretation of a theory. > My primary focus is on designing a so-called "free energy" machine based on > magnetic avalanche theory. It's my goal to design a machine that is > self-running, provides appreciable continuous usable power, and requires an > appreciably small amount of energy to start such a machine. That is a > technological goal. Second focus is to explain the technology in terms of > physics. > > Talk about a hypocrite! You have this wild-eyed concept of breaking known > laws of physics and you haven't even worked out the math, yet. No, you are the one with the wide-eyed concept called an Aether theory in the year 2007. First you need to understand the difference between a theory and an interpretation. For example, there are many interpretations to QM, such as MWI. There are a lot of interpretations of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. > I have > presented a fully quantified Aether (which means I have worked out the > math), and also provided new testable physics laws and a fundamentally > important electron binding energy equation. Yet, you tell me I have to > solve all of the Universe before you will listen, and you want us to listen > to your wild dreams? Please show me where I said you have to solve all the universe. One has to wonder how all these fictitious ideas enter your mind. I provided a small list in comparison to what QM has already solved. Can you not comprehend why physicists would want your Aether theory to at least equal QM? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 20:10:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E3AQGh023436; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:10:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E3APcY023427; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:10:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:10:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:09:51 -0600 Message-ID: <005e01c765e6$444403a0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acdl3rIwHwY7XX+bS0mHggYAf4yAMAAAVMCg In-Reply-To: <45F767F5.3070005@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73745 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > Can you understand the difference between my research focused on capturing usable ambient temperature energy and your extensive Aether theory? Yes, my theory is based upon real math, your "research" is based upon dreams. That is not rhetoric, it is a fact. > Seriously, can you comprehend the simple concept that your extensive Aether theory needs to at least predict present experiments and effects? Apparently you missed the part in high school physics where the relative strengths of the fundamental forces were empirically measured, but nobody could provide a quantified theory to unify those forces. There was this guy, his name was Albert Einstein, and he spent the last half of his life trying to figure out how these forces unified. I solved the problem in just three weeks by taking a closer look at the foundations of physics, itself. It turns out that the forces are easily unified if the right dimensions of charges are used. This is mathematically verified through the experimentally proven Casimir effect. I realize your personal bias against the Aether prevents you from studying my work, but it is properly quantified, referenced, and agrees with empirical data. On the other hand, your dream project has no physical manifestation, no quantification, and it has been proven by the science you have faith in to be impossible, over one hundred years ago. > You need to learn the difference between theory and interpretation. You need to learn the difference between reality and dreams. > It's a simple fact that a measuring instrument such as an oscilloscope has input capacitance and when thermal voltage noise is measured you are seeing voltage stored in a capacitor caused by such thermal noise? There's nothing to dispute or theorize about that, unless one has the mind of a child. It is a simple fact that the Aether Physics Model correctly unifies the forces, correctly quantifies a quantum unit of space-time, and correctly predicts all the 1s orbital binding energies for all atoms, unless one has no inclination to check it out [no need to stoop to your level of ad hominem remarks]. >> Unless you can fully explain every known physics law and >> something new, nobody is going to take you seriously. > I make no such claims. :-) You claim to have "researched" a second law violation. > Let me know anytime you want to challenge the simple fact that thermal noise can charge a capacitor Dave. You don't need to prove anything to me, I don't care about your work, remember? It is the establishment you need to prove to. Where is the paper accepted by Nature or Science that supports your wild-eyed ideas? When was your Nobel Prize reception party? >> BTW, do you suppose your zero interest in the Aether Physics Model has >> anything to do with your long list of goals for me that will take years >> to flesh out? > Just trying to help you brother, as several other people here. Thanks, just trying to return the favor, bro. I hope you like my help as much as I like yours. > This is silly because you need to have basic concepts explained to you. Allow me to explain. I will have no interest in your Aether theory until you can at least claim your theory accurately predicts the small list provided. Yes, it is a small list in comparison to what you would need to predict. You are being disingenuous, again. You have absolutely no intention of investigating the Aether Physics Model. If you were truly trying to help me, bro, you would recognize and properly comment on the Unified Force Theory (conspicuously missing from your list), and the Casimir effect as already presented. If you had even tried to read my paper, you would realize the difference between quantum structure and quantum mechanics. What I present is quantum structure, which is something modern physics can't do at all. The Aether Physics Model does not inherently dispute quantum mechanics. The only dispute is in the interpretations given by QM for quantum structure, such as wave/particle duality theory, probability functions as subatomic particles, and force particle theory. Telling me that I need to explain quantum mechanics because I have a theory for quantum structure is like saying you have to break the first law of thermodynamics if you plan to break the second law. It is completely senseless and shows a complete lack of understanding of my physics contribution as well as a poor understanding of QM. > No, you are the one with the wide-eyed concept called an Aether theory in the year 2007. We are getting to the heart of the matter, at last. You were not interested in a scientific discussion from the beginning. This is all about your prejudice toward the Aether. You never wanted to read the paper, nor did you want to see Aether discussed here, so you tried to the dirty technique of playing mindless cynic in hopes of wearing me down. You have been grasping for any reason you could to derail the discussion, because you didn't want to see a mathematical proof for the Aether's existence and its practical applications for engineering free energy and "antigravity" devices. Despite your hidden hatred, you came right out with a feeble attempt at a conspiracy theory and bragged about your "research" into breaking a physics law that nobody has ever broken before (that can prove it.) > Can you not comprehend why physicists would want your Aether theory to at least equal QM? Can't you comprehend that quantum structure and quantum mechanics are two completely different subjects in physics? QM describes the motion and behavior of subatomic particles. The Aether Physics Model describes the subatomic particles themselves (along with the space-time in which they reside). Is this too alien of a concept for you? Why should a theory of quantum structure also have to provide a different theory of quantum mechanics, than which already exists? Has anybody ever questioned the validity of QM? Do you believe that I have? I am correct, this whole discussion about what I need to do to please you is based entirely upon your prejudice toward Aether. You are not a scientist, but somebody defending a belief, and using dirty techniques at that. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 20:39:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E3dM7C030175; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:39:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E3dLMc030159; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:39:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:39:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=dIyj0j89J+WIonEQtGzT9Vq4EHCUgI9kwfSTySTynN77vh2rTL1ZGrtM7zsCPrm59qUqxpZBcvGA1JuIDVr51dseYjSojEMklNqmQXxtwFMCPhw7xrN+UtwPXNSWF9WtE4jHIPkLIK0Pw5Skw+2yNuTEs56eSozU3ghAHxC9Ioc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=iSiLADAGJIEXtPWr/hK+Z8Z/S7G14fVvXgz7papgclPECf5azHVsYom4RftFYDWurIqyekKWIFE3iZaEtysF9IlRHkF4YXG/wAXJyUGu8vbFbykI5Hxh7QTP6u28Jq5bklBMQm7tI7yeeTkBUgVFh67twociRak0ekNfMCWPGm0= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703132039u5c32b132g87330b469b2b4a98@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 05:39:17 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions now vladimir b ginzburg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_42520_1911150.1173843557969" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73746 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_42520_1911150.1173843557969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hi so what do you lot think of vladimir b ginzburg? seems to be slightly touched in the head about vortices! its a shame his website helicola.com is offline - but he has published 3 books, 3 of which are on amazon. seems fun, he even has a thing called the 3 dimensional spiral super-string theory! seems like a fun person! On 14/03/07, nothing of worth was said by two or twenty people fighting amongst themselves ------=_Part_42520_1911150.1173843557969 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hi so what do you lot think of vladimir b ginzburg?
seems to be slightly touched in the head about vortices!
its a shame his website helicola.com is offline - but he has published 3 books, 3 of which are on amazon. seems fun, he even has a thing called the 3 dimensional spiral super-string theory!
seems like a fun person!



On 14/03/07, nothing of worth was said by two or twenty people fighting amongst themselves
------=_Part_42520_1911150.1173843557969-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 21:06:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E45tO1002679; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:05:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E45r3C002667; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:05:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:05:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=az9wMIFx1ZWqFsJBnvkxYugqFB5w0ZfH+AQYAOFHGGVLn3vnU23swO03B7+XO2FdNWY/OXs+3IqfImVirpO5nWCk7HAXopMZqyn2TeRGO8DMiRj9TJoU7kqMobORcPMui9oHxlBFaYQtwCof+qggPwA0ZGIuBu/GpLUVAz3ODxk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NcrzQLMzzPaSABuyr8jmyeeshBX83W3YRKEd1gRVA0zXOgHDhrM4ITvzw+BohOtlK3/Z9vqFvUey7Idgp+rY08Pp2pD+sg8Y+O78JHIrUy2PnGtWILNv2vLw7P0qaJoIuV8YOoL//xrp1bSOXYUzCI5D1i7uVAnwC1vcScHD7G4= Message-ID: <45F782AA.6000100@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:05:46 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <005e01c765e6$444403a0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <005e01c765e6$444403a0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73747 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Paul, > >> Can you understand the difference between my research focused on capturing > > usable ambient temperature energy and your extensive Aether theory? > > Yes, my theory is based upon real math, your "research" is based upon > dreams. That is not rhetoric, it is a fact. Well then it's challenge then, lol. I'll await for your denial or acceptance of the challenge? --> Can the energy contained in ambient temperature charge a capacitor? >> Seriously, can you comprehend the simple concept that your extensive > Aether theory needs to at least predict present experiments and effects? > > Apparently you missed the part in high school physics where the relative > strengths of the fundamental forces were empirically measured, but nobody > could provide a quantified theory to unify those forces. There was this > guy, his name was Albert Einstein, and he spent the last half of his life > trying to figure out how these forces unified. I solved the problem in just > three weeks by taking a closer look at the foundations of physics, itself. > It turns out that the forces are easily unified if the right dimensions of > charges are used. This is mathematically verified through the > experimentally proven Casimir effect. Talk talk talk. Sorry brother, the physics community will continue to ignore you until your Aether theory can at least predict everything QM can predict. > I realize your personal bias against the Aether prevents you from studying > my work, but it is properly quantified, referenced, and agrees with > empirical data. No, your lack of claims, and as of recent your fuzzy logic mentality. > On the other hand, your dream project has no physical manifestation, no > quantification, and it has been proven by the science you have faith in to > be impossible, over one hundred years ago. Lets make a little bet that ambient temperature can charge a capacitor. > You need to learn the difference between reality and dreams. Please, stop the ad hominem remarks Dave. That's just one too many. >> It's a simple fact that a measuring instrument such as an oscilloscope has > input capacitance and when thermal voltage noise is measured you are seeing > voltage stored in a capacitor caused by such thermal noise? There's nothing > to dispute or theorize about that, unless one has the mind of a child. > > It is a simple fact that the Aether Physics Model correctly unifies the > forces, correctly quantifies a quantum unit of space-time, and correctly > predicts all the 1s orbital binding energies for all atoms, unless one has > no inclination to check it out [no need to stoop to your level of ad hominem > remarks]. You just don't get it. Can you Aether theory even predict the single electron double slit experiment? >>> Unless you can fully explain every known physics law and >>> something new, nobody is going to take you seriously. > >> I make no such claims. :-) > > You claim to have "researched" a second law violation. You're truly imagining things. >> Let me know anytime you want to challenge the simple fact that thermal > noise can charge a capacitor Dave. > > You don't need to prove anything to me, I don't care about your work LOL, big talk, no action? > It is the establishment you need to prove to. Where is the paper > accepted by Nature or Science that supports your wild-eyed ideas? When was > your Nobel Prize reception party? What wild-eyed idea? One can only believe after all your talk that you believe thermal noise cannot charge a capacitor, lol? >> This is silly because you need to have basic concepts explained to you. > Allow me to explain. I will have no interest in your Aether theory until > you can at least claim your theory accurately predicts the small list > provided. Yes, it is a small list in comparison to what you would need to > predict. > > You are being disingenuous, again. You have absolutely no intention of > investigating the Aether Physics Model. You cannot even understand or admit the basic concept that you at least need to claim your Aether theory predicts everything QM can predict. > > The Aether Physics Model does not inherently dispute quantum mechanics. The > only dispute is in the interpretations given by QM for quantum structure, > such as wave/particle duality theory, probability functions as subatomic > particles, and force particle theory. Telling me that I need to explain > quantum mechanics because I have a theory for quantum structure is like > saying you have to break the first law of thermodynamics if you plan to > break the second law. It is completely senseless and shows a complete lack > of understanding of my physics contribution as well as a poor understanding > of QM. What's senseless is even thinking your Aether theory is really a QM interpretation, LOL. Are you saying your Aether theory is really a QM interpretation? I'll ask you again ... What's your QM knowledge? ... Can you do QM mathematics? >> No, you are the one with the wide-eyed concept called an Aether theory in > the year 2007. > > We are getting to the heart of the matter, at last. You were not interested > in a scientific discussion from the beginning. This is all about your > prejudice toward the Aether. You never wanted to read the paper, nor did > you want to see Aether discussed here, so you tried to the dirty technique > of playing mindless cynic in hopes of wearing me down. You have been > grasping for any reason you could to derail the discussion, because you > didn't want to see a mathematical proof for the Aether's existence and its > practical applications for engineering free energy and "antigravity" > devices. LOL, talking about conspiracies. What an imagination. Anyhow, you need to provide proof that your Aether theory can match QM. I'm still waiting to hear your answer. Lets start with the single electron double slit experiment? > Despite your hidden hatred, you came right out with a feeble attempt at a > conspiracy theory and bragged about your "research" into breaking a physics > law that nobody has ever broken before (that can prove it.) No brother. It's all in your imagination. My focus is on capturing energy from ambient temperature. At least get your story straight. >> Can you not comprehend why physicists would want your Aether theory to at > least equal QM? > > Can't you comprehend that quantum structure and quantum mechanics are two > completely different subjects in physics? How would you know? You never asked. Where did you dream that one up? Perhaps voices in the Aether? > QM describes the motion and > behavior of subatomic particles. The Aether Physics Model describes the > subatomic particles themselves (along with the space-time in which they > reside). Is this too alien of a concept for you? You keep telling us what it can do. Big deal. Anyone could dream up a theory that predicts thousands of things. You need to save yourself a world of time and focus on some real difficult problems. Start with the double slit experiment. > Why should a theory of > quantum structure also have to provide a different theory of quantum > mechanics, than which already exists? Has anybody ever questioned the > validity of QM? Do you believe that I have? It's very difficult to take you seriously. ... Waste of time. > I am correct, this whole discussion about what I need to do to please you is > based entirely upon your prejudice toward Aether. Hilarious. > You are not a scientist, > but somebody defending a belief, and using dirty techniques at that. Oh no, heaven forbid if someone actually challenges your Aether theory to predict what QM can predict. I'm a scientists. You are a man ruled by fuzzy logic. The problem here seems to be you don't want people to know your Aether theory cannot predict everything QM can predict. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 21:15:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E4FPt0011108; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:15:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E4FOja011095; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:15:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:15:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XKQ1iDDkfP18cP4twi/wxe0CPzI7TVYl2Cp2+AfxohyE7NuoUSmvOLfG5gqRmZy4M7AO+9iXYW7BqjGySpA8mKFVmlw2CTRfHeu696U6U8WbtDxJoMtszfcb0Nf2KDQJYZliZlZDT6MgpY3Guh1mozHhaK+atT+Ow7AsAeaTCB4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oIyjuTIfrskMQye/uHIrei05xh75kSEHEbyNo7ttrQwsyzxUTpjn9kFUJqQAaGsnK8QWil1AEMepHxfIOJQ2FYfkbD3y54uEG0bSG6gs+JZCQ47EjJc9TJeYBmDiOWqytTxZoVs2pIxUFylX8jlEM7BBVia+o9heyYDdN8H429A= Message-ID: <45F784E5.5030908@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:15:17 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions now vladimir b ginzburg References: <538fa8f10703132039u5c32b132g87330b469b2b4a98@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703132039u5c32b132g87330b469b2b4a98@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73748 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Esa Ruoho wrote: > On 14/03/07, nothing of worth was said by two or twenty people fighting > amongst themselves > I think you are correct. Debates are good, but this thread with Dave is the only Vo thread I've seen that's useless. IMHO it's honestly like talking to an adolescent child. I'll try and keep my replies to Dave at a minimum. It's just a waste of time, as Dave is avoiding very real common sense that his Aether theory needs to at least predict every effect and experiment QM can predict. He thinks that too much to ask? Come on Dave! As for my research, I have real experiments that capture ambient temperature energy. I have no claims it breaks the second law of thermodynamics because there are too many formulations of the 2nd law. Various people have acquired the same results. For example, Tom Schum --> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 21:27:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E4RkMD014872; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:27:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E4RiU8014857; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:27:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:27:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Earthquake in NE Ohio Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:27:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <918483.52714.qm@web32813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <918483.52714.qm@web32813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 14 Mar 2007 04:27:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2E4RgRU014826 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73749 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harvey Norris's message of Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:45:46 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] >Loud Explosion effect similar to hypothesized scalar >interferometry. Ravenna(Portage Co Ohio) Military >arsenal near epicenter; Folks near center not >experience shock wave but outwards from center shock >wave evident at 3.6 on Richter scale. [snip] I suspect this may actually have been a meteorite strike. As they come through the atmosphere at supersonic speeds they should create a huge sonic boom, followed by a small Earthquake as they impact. The same thing happened where I live a couple of years ago. They reported a tremor of 2.5 on the Richter scale in the news, but no one mentioned the meteorite. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 13 21:57:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E4vG2g026301; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:57:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E4vFpP026285; Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:57:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:57:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F7809B.7010903@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:56:59 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73750 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Aether Theory Status: O X-Status: Paul and David posted >> Are you the guy with the Aether theory of everything? >> If so then when are you going to start on the list provided in >>another thread? > > Are you telling me what to do? Would you like me to tell you what to do? > Please take a look at what you replied to. Both of my statements were questions. My two questions did not tell you what to do. Does one of you have a website about the Aether? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 00:54:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2E7sKZ4006306; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:54:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2E7sIbw006287; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:54:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:54:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=K0zLEtFaRPF4m6GhWN8KYaZ2e+ukTU0E3BVRGSfc9w8iixTYOHhZSqlAAUiWGnWHmlHgMKAjmMnWeTy85AfJsVb+tC9Bus2DRR50UZWUh/H6vB6mSwSnq7xIqXOov0nMF8n8TGW4KiemXC2BROeCm2as3XVhRA86jZYcyIYruKw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=mh9snzZ9ZN3arEe23vNUOwY55N+kXe/JDpvdvaB9j6ZJvflE0vHmCGu/szLXnt2XRXMZvKWrn8RHK9cYpkqXSuqaJVhqn4cdip8saUA4gBpZ06+FfGjtHR+uxBrvEVSqE1vjfhgo0/o05WTvsjv3J9YyNCT9igxK4LW98mP10HI= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 02:54:17 -0500 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l , vortex-digest@eskimo.com, "hermajohn@gmail.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_56049_28387975.1173858857045" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73751 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_56049_28387975.1173858857045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vortex, I have not been following vortex for some time and now receive the vortex digest. The beginning of one is 'cut and pasted' below. I read well and rapidly, but type very slowly. AND.... at present my keyboard is a little "crunchy" and sometimes does not put the spaces between words. Please forgive keyboard, my errors in spelling and grammer, dyslexia and so on .... I am simply trying to get the idea[s] from Vo and convey ideas, some my own, some from others ...and convey these-them to Vo. PLEASE: I ask a favor from one of you Vos... if you lurk or want to be low key, please contact off list. I am and have been interested in Energy for decades. I am primarily a hands on applied sciences and experimentalist. There are only a few names in this Volume 2007# 162 ....I think 10 are listed. It would be great to know who is writing what comment in some of these letters.... yet, for myself, far more importantly, there are some mentions of experiments and-or effects....some of these I know of... some not. SO: I ask, will someone take this Volume 2007 # 162 and cut it down but let me or maybe all of vo: [1] Who ------> is saying what ..in one or more of these long 'she said he said he said she said' strings please...... so I can figure out who is saying what to who about what. I do not really care so much about who thinks who is right or wrong.... I am trying to make sense of which-what the contributors are talking about.... [2] WHAT..... some of the letters mention effects,theories ideas and so on ... some I have known about... but some not.... papers are mentioned .... but is cases I can not seem to locate (within these letters) What these papers are, where to find them and so on.... PLEASE... an annotation of the ideas-effects-papers-and-so-on. A REWARD for the effort, in advance, even if no one helps with my questions: [3] I offer a note here about Cold Fusion: In advance Isit corrected if someone can show a paper or other that addresses the note below.... (A) In almost every paper I have read and conferences and dedicated presentations I have attended that are directed toward the ideas of CF.... There is one big "hole" which will-would-can change the figures of all of the energy figures: (B) CF is an electrochemical experiment. Aqueous....hence H2 and O2 are liberated, generated, result of electrolysis of water or how some ever (C) But no one seems to give a measure of the volume of these gases....and what energy would be resulting if the set up collected the gases as separate gas flow or stream outputs AND i) burned them and measured the heat ii) combined them with a catalyst set up INTENDED to make and measured the same iii) combined the gases in a fuel cell and measured the electrical output -------------> And then offer figures of the energy of the use-chemical-fuel cell of these gases which are the result of nearly Any CF cell I have come across. Yes.... I have read and talked to presenters and sometime the gases are vented, recombined often with some proprietary or not defined catalyst .... but when I ask... "How much gas and what energy it would contribute ...if combusted or fuel cell or thermal by other means ...I get no answer...or "not part of the calculation" or ?I do not know? or"itdoesnomatter" Note Bene: If the gases are produced...the energy they represent Does make a difference in the total intermediate andor end result. Any comment or help on these gasses? Thanks to all, JHS would vortex-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 162 Today's Topics: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Mi [ Harry Veeder ] [Vo]: Earthquake in NE Ohio [ Harvey Norris ] Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions [ "R.C.Macaulay" ] Re: [VO]:Re: Modified Double-Slit Ex [ Harry Veeder ] Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions now vladim [ "Esa Ruoho" ] Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:25:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Message-id: ------=_Part_56049_28387975.1173858857045 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
         
Dear Vortex,
 
      I have not been following vortex for some time and now receive the vortex digest.
The beginning of one is 'cut and pasted' below.
       I read well and rapidly, but type very slowly.
 
      AND.... at present my keyboard is a little "crunchy" and sometimes does not  put
the spaces between words.  Please forgive keyboard, my errors in spelling and grammer, dyslexia and so on .... I am simply trying to get the idea[s] from Vo and convey ideas, some my own, some from others ...and convey these-them to Vo.
 
        PLEASE: 
 
       I ask a favor from one of you Vos... if you lurk or want to be low key, please contact off list.
       I am and have been interested in Energy for decades.  I am primarily 
a hands on applied sciences and experimentalist.
       There are only a few names in this Volume 2007# 162 ....I think 10 are listed.
 
       It would be great to know who is writing what comment in some of these letters.... yet, for myself, far more importantly, there are some mentions of experiments and-or effects....some of these I know of... some  not.
 
  SO:  I ask, will someone take this Volume 2007 # 162 and cut it down but let me or maybe all of vo:
 
    [1] Who ------>    is saying what ..in one or more of these long 'she said he said he said she said' strings   please......
            so I can figure out who is saying what to who about what.
I do not really care so much about who thinks who is right or wrong.... I am trying to make sense of which-what the contributors are talking about....
 
    [2]  WHAT..... some of the letters mention effects,theories ideas and so on ...
some I have known about... but some not.... papers are mentioned .... but is cases
I can not seem to locate (within these letters) What these papers are, where to find them and so on.... PLEASE... an annotation of the ideas-effects-papers-and-so-on.
 
   A  REWARD for the effort, in advance, even if no one helps with my questions:
 
 [3]   I offer a note here about Cold Fusion:
 
           In advance Isit corrected if someone can show a paper or other that
addresses the note below....
 
           (A) In almost every paper I have read and conferences and dedicated presentations I have attended that are directed toward the ideas of CF....
      There is one big "hole" which will-would-can change the figures of all of the energy
figures:
     (B)      CF is an electrochemical experiment. Aqueous....hence H2 and O2 are
liberated, generated, result of electrolysis of water or how some ever 
   (C)  But no one seems to give a  measure of the volume of these gases....and what
       energy would be resulting if the set up collected the gases as separate gas
flow or stream outputs AND
           i)  burned them and measured the heat
           ii)  combined them with a catalyst set up INTENDED to make and                         measured the same
           iii)  combined the gases in a fuel cell and measured the electrical output
 
-------------> And then offer figures of the energy of the use-chemical-fuel cell of these
gases which are the result of nearly Any CF cell I have come across.
 
        Yes.... I have read and talked to presenters and sometime the gases are vented, recombined often with some proprietary or not defined catalyst .... but when I ask...
   "How much gas and what energy it would contribute ...if combusted or fuel cell or
thermal by other means ...I get no answer...or "not part of the calculation" or
?I do not know? or"itdoesnomatter"
 
          Note Bene:  If the gases are produced...the energy they represent Does
make a difference in the total intermediate andor end result.
 
         Any comment or help on these gasses?
 
                   Thanks to all,
                                           JHS  
      
 
 
would  
 
 
vortex-digest Digest                            Volume 2007 : Issue 162

Today's Topics:
 Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Mi  [ Harry Veeder < eo200@freenet.carleto ]
 Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions             [ Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.co ]
 Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Mi  [ Harry Veeder < eo200@freenet.carleto ]
 RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions             [ "David Thomson" < dwt@volantis.org> ]
 [Vo]: Earthquake in NE Ohio           [ Harvey Norris <harvich@yahoo.com> ]
 Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions             [ " R.C.Macaulay" <walhalla@cvtv.net> ]
 Re: [VO]:Re: Modified Double-Slit Ex  [ Harry Veeder < eo200@freenet.carleto ]
 Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions             [ Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.co ]
 RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions             [ "David Thomson" < dwt@volantis.org> ]
 Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions now vladim  [ "Esa Ruoho" < esaruoho@gmail.com> ]

Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:25:20 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca >
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer
Message-id: < C21CB930.17434%eo200@ncf.ca>
 
------=_Part_56049_28387975.1173858857045-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 03:19:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EAJUhs029990; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:19:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EAJSr6029977; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:19:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:19:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <125e01c76622$41b942d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:19:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2EAJQoZ029952 Resent-Message-ID: <9fn9J.A.MUH.ww89FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73752 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: JHS questions on evolved gas energy in CF Status: RO X-Status: Of course there is energy stored in those gases John, exactly the same amount that was put in their dissociation. Here is a transcript of what I posted on August 16, 2006 to our restricted list of CMNS researchers on the subject (it was for H2O electrolysis mind you, figures are slightly different for D2O). I authorized some of the top researchers there to quote my derivation (fairly basic stuff I thought) in their papers or books so I guess I can authorize myself to post it here: ----------------------------- Hi M****** and E*, I did post a calculation, that was in a July 2 post "**************". Here is a revised version: For water dissociation the enthalpy tables (e.g. those in my calculator) give: H2O(l) -> 0.5 O2(g) + H2(g) - 285.83 kJ/mol (endothermic) [P.S. MJ 2007-03-14 I should have written more generally "endoenergetic"] The delta H ~286 kJ per mole is of course Avogadro's number (6.02*10^23) times the required electric energy per dissociated molecule, which is therefore: E= 286*10^3/6.02*10^23 = 4.75*10^-19 J/molecule We also know that we need to circulate 2 electrons per molecule, so if V is the part of the electrolysis voltage used to dissociate the molecule and e is the electron charge 1.6*10^-19 C, another expression for the required electric energy (work) for the molecule dissociation is: E=V*2e. Thus: V=E/2e = 4.75*10-19/3.2*10^-19 = 4.75/3.2 = 1.48V Please note that the -285.83 kJ/mol reaction enthalpy this calculation is based on is for STP conditions 1atm and 25°C, so for different conditions e.g. 1atm and 100°C the appropriate reaction enthalpy must be used and will yield a different thermo-neutral voltage value. Michel -------------------------------- So if what we are electro-lyzing (hyphen as a hint for Edmund) is H2O, and if both the evolved H2 and O2 and the initial H2O _are at 1 atm and 25°C_, the energy stored in those gases is simply 1.48V times the total charge circulated through the cell (integral of current over time). Let me know if this makes sense to you John. > A REWARD for the effort, in advance, even if no one helps with my > questions: What's the reward BTW? ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "john herman" To: "vortex-l" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:54 AM Subject: [Vo]: ... > [3] I offer a note here about Cold Fusion: > > In advance Isit corrected if someone can show a paper or other > that > addresses the note below.... > > (A) In almost every paper I have read and conferences and > dedicated presentations I have attended that are directed toward the ideas > of CF.... > There is one big "hole" which will-would-can change the figures of all > of the energy > figures: > (B) CF is an electrochemical experiment. Aqueous....hence H2 and > O2 are > liberated, generated, result of electrolysis of water or how some ever > (C) But no one seems to give a measure of the volume of these > gases....and what > energy would be resulting if the set up collected the gases as > separate gas > flow or stream outputs AND > i) burned them and measured the heat > ii) combined them with a catalyst set up INTENDED to make > and measured the same > iii) combined the gases in a fuel cell and measured the > electrical output > > -------------> And then offer figures of the energy of the use-chemical-fuel > cell of these > gases which are the result of nearly Any CF cell I have come across. > > Yes.... I have read and talked to presenters and sometime the > gases are vented, recombined often with some proprietary or not defined > catalyst .... but when I ask... > "How much gas and what energy it would contribute ...if combusted or fuel > cell or > thermal by other means ...I get no answer...or "not part of the calculation" > or > ?I do not know? or"itdoesnomatter" > > Note Bene: If the gases are produced...the energy they represent > Does > make a difference in the total intermediate andor end result. > > Any comment or help on these gasses? > > Thanks to all, > JHS From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 03:33:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EAXg09018089; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:33:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EAXeTq018074; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:33:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:33:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004601c76624$3d948d70$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:15:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73753 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote:- <> No Harry, the error you made is exactly the one I pointed out using an accelerator (gas) pedal as an analogy. I don't know how long you have been around, but Jed and I and Ed Storms and Terry Blanton have been commenting and arguing about this subject since the news broke in 1989. Many people have brought up your point before. Most people "skilled in the art", and those who follow them, realise that the electrolysis is only a means of preparation of the conditions necessary for CF to occur. The fact that "heat after death" is a well known phenomenon, where there is no further electrolysis (no input electrical, or other, energy) but heat continues to be generated for some time ( approaching "infinite" COP), shows the relative meaninglessness of chasing this form of "COP" - which is exactly what Ed Storms said originally. Try not teaching your grandmother to suck eggs for a change... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 05:08:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EC8jt5001796; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 05:08:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EC8hKK001755; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 05:08:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 05:08:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <162501c76631$83a02650$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <004601c76624$3d948d70$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:08:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l2EC8eLs001697 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73754 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I disagree Nick, even the old timers in Cold Fusion can learn from newbies, as surprising as it may seem. A few recent examples taken from this newbie's one year experience in the field: 1/ Only last year I taught Michael McKubre how to derive simply the thermo-neutral voltage in H2O electrolysis (cf 'JHS questions on evolved gas energy in CF' thread). He requested permission to quote or paraphrase my derivation with credits, kudos for that, he behaved like a great scientist. 2/ Only a few months ago I taught Melvin Miles and Mitchell Swartz the general definition of 'anode' (which they both called wrong, and never admitted afterwards having been wrong themselves in doing so, I say they didn't behave like great scientists) 3/ Even now I am in the process of teaching Edmund Storms what 'electrolysis' means, which I am sure he will acknowledge gracefully. I have more examples if you're interested. So you see even the mothers of all grandmothers are perfectible in the art of egg sucking, and admitting they are makes them even greater great grandmothers in my view. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Palmer" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > Harry Veeder wrote:- > > < gasoline as a vapour. While you need to exert some effort to vaporise the > gasoline, the COP is still much bigger>> > > No Harry, the error you made is exactly the one I pointed out using an > accelerator (gas) pedal as an analogy. I don't know how long you have been > around, but Jed and I and Ed Storms and Terry Blanton have been commenting > and arguing about this subject since the news broke in 1989. Many people > have brought up your point before. Most people "skilled in the art", and > those who follow them, realise that the electrolysis is only a means of > preparation of the conditions necessary for CF to occur. The fact that "heat > after death" is a well known phenomenon, where there is no further > electrolysis (no input electrical, or other, energy) but heat continues to > be generated for some time ( approaching "infinite" COP), shows the relative > meaninglessness of chasing this form of "COP" - which is exactly what Ed > Storms said originally. Try not teaching your grandmother to suck eggs for a > change... > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 06:01:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2ED1QCN030301; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:01:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ED1O7D030275; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:01:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:01:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c76638$dd438560$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: Electric Power Grid USA Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:01:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7660E.F4213220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <6DxFQ.A._YH.jI_9FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73755 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7660E.F4213220 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7660E.F4243F60" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7660E.F4243F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Takeover specialists have plans to take TXU Dallas private in what may = be the largest buyout ever. TXU is the largest electric power producer = in Texas and is connected to the ERCOT which co-ordinates the entire = Texas power grid. As demand for electric power increases in the USA without producing an = equivalent increase in power .. well.. do the math. When will we hit the wall.. This year. What can we do about it.. too late. Why? The nation needs to bring a mimimum of 10 large stations online per = year. Some to simply replace those taken out of service. Takes 3-5 years = to secure the machinery and build a single plant. While our attention is being distracted by the magicians behind the = curtain.. some night soon we awaken to what happens when a massive power = outage occurs, A power plant can fail. A grid cannot be allowed to fail. Try calling to complain.. no phone.. try tracing the owners.. all = offshore. Try calling our esteemed former Texas Senator Phil Gramm, now = with UBS Switzerland with offices in Austin Texas that is working on the = buyout of TXU. The deal is so huge that Blackstone,Texas& Pacific and = Carlyle is involved. I used to think the electric power meltdown would happen on either the = east or west coast.. now Texas is in the running. Get a bicycle. Richard =20 ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7660E.F4243F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Takeover specialists have plans to take TXU Dallas private in what = may be=20 the largest buyout ever. TXU is the largest electric power producer in = Texas and=20 is connected to the ERCOT which co-ordinates the entire Texas power = grid.
 
As demand for electric power increases in the USA without producing = an=20 equivalent increase in power .. well.. do the math.
 
When will we hit the wall.. This year.
 
What can we do about it.. too late.
 
Why? The nation needs to bring a mimimum of 10 large stations = online=20 per year. Some to simply replace those taken out of service. Takes 3-5 = years to=20 secure the machinery and build a single plant.
 
While our attention is being distracted by the magicians behind the = curtain.. some night soon we awaken to what happens when a massive power = outage=20 occurs, A power plant can fail. A grid cannot be allowed to fail.
 
Try calling to complain.. no phone.. try tracing the owners.. all=20 offshore. Try calling our esteemed former Texas Senator Phil = Gramm,=20 now with UBS Switzerland with offices in Austin Texas that is working on = the=20 buyout of TXU. The deal is so huge that Blackstone,Texas& = Pacific and=20 Carlyle is involved.
 
I used to think the electric power meltdown would happen on either = the east=20 or west coast.. now Texas is in the running.
 
Get a bicycle.
 
Richard
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7660E.F4243F60-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7660E.F4213220 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c76638$dcaac7d0$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7660E.F4213220-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 06:26:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EDQimJ026126; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:26:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EDQgxk026104; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:26:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:26:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions now vladimir b ginzburg Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:26:15 -0600 Message-ID: <003101c7663c$6398aed0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01C7660A.18FE3ED0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703132039u5c32b132g87330b469b2b4a98@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdl6qlFEDFYwpZlS82T0qtUhBWBVAAUFIHw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73756 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C7660A.18FE3ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Esa, > hi so what do you lot think of vladimir b ginzburg? > seems to be slightly touched in the head about vortices! Interesting comment to be made on a list called "vortex-l." I have corresponded with him and have one of his books. Unlike my work, which is completely dimension based and derives straight from the empirical constants, Ginzburg tries to work within the SM and Relativity theories. He is actually quite scholarly and gives a properly referenced history of vortex structures in ancient and modern physics theories. He then goes on to show his own work with regard to modern physics. Far from being touched in the head, if anybody on this list is truly interested in vortices with regard to physics, they will want to read his book "Prime Elements of Ordinary Matter, Dark Matter & Dark Energy." Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C7660A.18FE3ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Esa,

 

> hi so what do you lot think of vladimir b ginzburg?

> seems to be slightly touched in the head about vortices!

Interesting comment to be made on a = list called “vortex-l.”

 

I have corresponded with him and = have one of his books.  Unlike my work, which is completely dimension based = and derives straight from the empirical constants, Ginzburg tries to work = within the SM and Relativity theories.  He is actually quite scholarly and = gives a properly referenced history of vortex structures in ancient and modern physics theories.  He then goes on to show his own work with regard = to modern physics.

 

Far from being touched in the head, = if anybody on this list is truly interested in vortices with regard to = physics, they will want to read his book “Prime Elements of Ordinary = Matter, Dark Matter & Dark Energy.”

 

Dave

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C7660A.18FE3ED0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 06:37:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EDbgT8011906; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:37:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EDbfLS011892; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:37:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:37:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:37:07 -0600 Message-ID: <003901c7663d$e8f81880$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F782AA.6000100@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdl7mXsdna6S8JySgeNC74UGiYtYQAThWkw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73757 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > You just don't get it. Can you Aether theory even predict the single electron double slit experiment? Apparently, you still cannot understand a simple concept. The Aether Physics Model is about structure, not mechanics. If you can require a structural theory to explain mechanics, then I can require your violation of the second law of thermodynamics to also break the first law. It's that silly. > What wild-eyed idea? One can only believe after all your talk that you believe thermal noise cannot charge a capacitor, lol? And I said anything remotely similar to this... where? I deleted the psychotic ramblings as it is apparent you are losing touch with reality, as I am sure others can clearly see. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 06:48:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EDmdlY015901; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:48:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EDmbh1015881; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:48:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:48:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Tp0Ay8e8Z7+YnTPdkUBjj//YWAxauYH5mZ3MVEI2vet8auFSqluasv+jPxw+muxdEjsLJ0SjqJ5X2APcnbKWtpCNQGu1Qk2Wax4t/3O0II1RgZlF1TYitAJZ3HEyb6kE+NUlA80JAGLMDc3E3v2A974oEaLLqO6wnlpyr4goCpA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=J0QxO4Lo5af2NFAaANdMMaFTXA60UTjBhfDL2rMGV5slG27I50NIIgPnRB4eMhMNZwlFxzjYBd87yoES6galCzzLoyIvUwtoBasPo66dymxjMVgnjBuOKX37RAuRWu59j8xXq1Gq8uvsBGD7FrwyEwDzYxfAU3tlxB34s9lIbiM= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703140648x20c582ake88f5ca58602db24@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:48:33 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions now vladimir b ginzburg In-Reply-To: <003101c7663c$6398aed0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_49954_3611588.1173880113817" References: <538fa8f10703132039u5c32b132g87330b469b2b4a98@mail.gmail.com> <003101c7663c$6398aed0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73759 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_49954_3611588.1173880113817 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline i didnt mean "touched in the head" as in whacked out - i just thought maybe there'd be some people who have studied what he has published regards vortex theories and spirals, and then wouldve, you know, ended that mib conversation. he seemed to be a nice person :) and i loved that properly referenced history-list that he had in one of his books, obviously my own interest in that wouldve been to see lots on walter russell and viktor schauberger, but the rest of the list seemed to be quite fun. shame again that helicola.com is offline. On 14/03/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Hi Esa, > > hi so what do you lot think of vladimir b ginzburg? > > seems to be slightly touched in the head about vortices! > Interesting comment to be made on a list called "vortex-l." > I have corresponded with him and have one of his books. Unlike my work, > which is completely dimension based and derives straight from the empirical > constants, Ginzburg tries to work within the SM and Relativity theories. He > is actually quite scholarly and gives a properly referenced history of > vortex structures in ancient and modern physics theories. He then goes on > to show his own work with regard to modern physics. > Far from being touched in the head, if anybody on this list is truly > interested in vortices with regard to physics, they will want to read his > book "Prime Elements of Ordinary Matter, Dark Matter & Dark Energy." > Dave > ------=_Part_49954_3611588.1173880113817 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline i didnt mean "touched in the head" as in whacked out - i just thought maybe there'd be some people who have studied what he has published regards vortex theories and spirals, and then wouldve, you know, ended that mib conversation.
he seemed to be a nice person :)
and i loved that  properly referenced history-list that he had  in one of his books, obviously my own interest in that wouldve been to see lots on walter russell and viktor schauberger, but the rest of the list seemed to be quite fun.
shame again that helicola.com is offline.

On 14/03/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org > wrote:

Hi Esa,
> hi so what do you lot think of vladimir b ginzburg?
> seems to be slightly touched in the head about vortices!
Interesting comment to be made on a list called "vortex-l."
I have corresponded with him and have one of his books.  Unlike my work, which is completely dimension based and derives straight from the empirical constants, Ginzburg tries to work within the SM and Relativity theories.  He is actually quite scholarly and gives a properly referenced history of vortex structures in ancient and modern physics theories.  He then goes on to show his own work with regard to modern physics.
Far from being touched in the head, if anybody on this list is truly interested in vortices with regard to physics, they will want to read his book "Prime Elements of Ordinary Matter, Dark Matter & Dark Energy."
Dave


------=_Part_49954_3611588.1173880113817-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 06:50:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EDo2J7019149; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:50:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EDgTs1014149; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:42:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:42:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Aether Theory Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:42:10 -0600 Message-ID: <003a01c7663e$97e15140$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F7809B.7010903@usfamily.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdl9ZG/hQMtslafRYKYh35WY1fb3QASK0PQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73758 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, > Does one of you have a website about the Aether? I have a web site on the Aether Physics Model at www.16pi2.com A white paper gives the foundations of the theory at: http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 07:59:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EExM2M022539; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:59:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EExLHu022522; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:59:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:59:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=FbskW/GDPROt4EZwQfu1oJyfc1XNzjKfelRBsAum6b9SW4khuZ/DygN6ePi4dX79THUhOz1C97Zk08CYUZaxkXls6dPoQK8ZGGtky7I6/uNzhdrKxkpEQEzF+a30XMEQ9M2SxYZrbHt9W3QiGo0dgrSfuxw21UAsMQVAzBsiatg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Tr+KuBrNGFmBUslysW6H2H2Z0iyLBKlYJjlQ18X25DCphzVxer4zd+F5gRhbz/YvIrK/0mqQOOjkXa+KuVtx0Ir6uS229PNaJLiSpfvmdQRz3JEbw9bL3gTywiN5ucSBxycTWL1xBjUN19wK1E1KBV951rPF61LVGcD0M4SKQrU= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703140759r45c4bf08ne03d437d8310892d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:59:19 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: "David Thomson" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions now vladimir b ginzburg In-Reply-To: <003e01c76647$21e9a560$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_51882_31625464.1173884359541" References: <538fa8f10703140648x20c582ake88f5ca58602db24@mail.gmail.com> <003e01c76647$21e9a560$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73760 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_51882_31625464.1173884359541 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline back onlist: On 14/03/07, David Thomson wrote: > > > and i loved that properly referenced history-list that he had in one > of his books, obviously my own interest in that wouldve been to see lots on > walter russell and viktor schauberger, but the rest of the list seemed to be > quite fun. > > Yes, although Ginzburg mentioned Schauberger in glowing terms, he didn't > go into much detail. This is probably because Viktor Schauberger didn't > explain his theory mathematically, but only practically. Ginzburg's work is > mathematical in nature. > i did try to give ginzburg some stuff on walter schauberger (who took great pains to take viktor's realizations back into mathematics and physics and, well, science), lets see what happens. after all, walter schauberger did publish quite a bit on the hyperbolic open-path geometry that seemed to mesh in with everything else. should be interesting to see how the two walters coincide, walter russell and schauberge.r > shame again that helicola.com is offline. > > I wonder what the problem is? Everything seemed fine last fall when we > were emailing back and forth. Maybe he got a government contract? > one idea comes to mind, maybe the server has just xpired. ------=_Part_51882_31625464.1173884359541 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline back onlist:

On 14/03/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:

> and i loved that  properly referenced history-list that he had  in one of his books, obviously my own interest in that wouldve been to see lots on walter russell and viktor schauberger, but the rest of the list seemed to be quite fun.

Yes, although Ginzburg mentioned Schauberger in glowing terms, he didn't go into much detail.  This is probably because Viktor Schauberger didn't explain his theory mathematically, but only practically.  Ginzburg's work is mathematical in nature.


i did try to give ginzburg some stuff on walter schauberger (who took great pains to take viktor's realizations back into mathematics and physics and, well, science), lets see what happens. after all, walter schauberger did publish quite a bit on the hyperbolic open-path geometry that seemed to mesh in with everything else. should be interesting to see how the two walters coincide, walter russell and schauberge.r

> shame again that helicola.com is offline.

I wonder what the problem is?  Everything seemed fine last fall when we were emailing back and forth.  Maybe he got a government contract?


one idea comes to mind, maybe the server has just xpired.
------=_Part_51882_31625464.1173884359541-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 08:19:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EFJfJk032733; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:19:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EFJNU1032506; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:19:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:19:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:18:50 -0600 Message-ID: <004901c7664c$1f4ff570$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01C76619.D4B58570" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703140759r45c4bf08ne03d437d8310892d@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdmSb/OWOvhV3ygSw6hgdVNN84ReAAAP3ow Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73761 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C76619.D4B58570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Esa > i did try to give ginzburg some stuff on walter schauberger (who took great pains to take viktor's realizations back into mathematics and physics and, well, science), lets see what happens. after all, walter schauberger did publish quite a bit on the hyperbolic open-path geometry that seemed to mesh in with everything else. should be interesting to see how the two walters coincide, walter russell and schauberge.r What exactly did you give to Vladimir? Until you mentioned "Walter," I had not realized he added to his work. A quick Google search shows his web site is in German. My limited American language skills have hidden Walter's work from me. > shame again that helicola.com is offline. I wonder what the problem is? Everything seemed fine last fall when we were emailing back and forth. Maybe he got a government contract? > one idea comes to mind, maybe the server has just xpired. While researching on Walter I found another related Schauberger site to be offline. Schaubergers inventions What inventions related to Viktor and Walter Schauberger do you consider to be of particular interest and why? Dave ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C76619.D4B58570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Esa

 

> i did try to = give ginzburg some stuff on walter schauberger (who took great pains to take viktor's realizations back into mathematics and physics and, well, = science), lets see what happens. after all, walter schauberger did publish quite a = bit on the hyperbolic open-path geometry that seemed to mesh in with everything = else. should be interesting to see how the two walters coincide, walter = russell and schauberge.r

 

What exactly did you give to = Vladimir?  Until you mentioned “Walter,” I had not realized he added to his = work.  A quick Google search shows his web site is in German.  My limited American language skills have hidden Walter’s work from me.  =

> shame again = that helicola.com is = offline.

I wonder what the problem = is?  Everything seemed fine last fall when we were emailing back and forth.  Maybe = he got a government contract?

> one idea comes = to mind, maybe the server has just xpired.

 

While researching on Walter I found = another related Schauberger site to be offline.

 

Schaubergers = inventions

 

What inventions related to Viktor = and Walter Schauberger do you consider to be of particular interest and = why?

 

Dave

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C76619.D4B58570-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 08:28:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EFSEhg001024; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:28:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EFSDfF001002; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:28:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:28:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=faWXTeZT9N5nlcZ4fuhW2c/NGxsixhsF0CeqxqsknqvtKPvXRvoClAIJm/cZtnsR9+ITXYbfWBNzC7xjWUtiaJl3R657/22esnlQykWytcKtbA1YI6Om/4rFjquhBlUa1Po6Y52U3KkTqzNLu/ygK7hBcfY6UTn1Ff5OnSJo+UI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ubrWpg6qeE1yYNMmXmZD+2Zgwb9CZAiOF8BUCI6dpwHc+GMlO8NRaF1t3JS4BRr9vxkiivG8YHDGst1Aiw2kQmT5UazTBwo2kEQzcb3iwSLaj+JjNAKR4zO962B1P0ddTqCEPYOh7mu/9E09jcjGJ26/PIo01faKCAtkBe6HWU8= Message-ID: <45F82297.9030300@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:28:07 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <003901c7663d$e8f81880$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <003901c7663d$e8f81880$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73762 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Hi Paul, > >> You just don't get it. Can you Aether theory even predict the single > electron double slit experiment? > > Apparently, you still cannot understand a simple concept. The Aether > Physics Model is about structure, not mechanics. Quote from www.16pi2.com "the Aether Physics Model not only describes quantum structure, but can also describe quantum mechanics" The domain name www.16pi2.com is registered under your name. I took a peak at your website to discover one needs to *buy* your book to study your Aether theory. Also I could not help but notice your obvious *Donations* request on your homepage. So it appears we agree that your APM cannot predict the double slit experiment. May I ask what your APM can do that Quantum Physics cannot? >> What wild-eyed idea? One can only believe after all your talk that you > believe thermal noise cannot charge a capacitor, lol? > > And I said anything remotely similar to this... where? My claim is that energy is capturable form ambient temperature. The capacitor experiment demonstrates this. I'll ask you again, do you believe a capacitor connected to a resistor captures energy from ambient temperature? > I deleted the psychotic ramblings as it is apparent you are losing touch > with reality, as I am sure others can clearly see. Please stop the ad hominem remarks. What you deleted were challenges. Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 08:28:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EFSfx1007567; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:28:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EFSe63007556; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:28:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:28:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070314111539.0373c838@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:28:29 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy In-Reply-To: References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000601c76400$fa1869b0$f6c8163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313102845.036e41f0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313120123.03793de0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73763 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >Ahuh, and yet no details are ever availible. That is incorrect. NIST has published thousands of pages of data. Please do not dispute matters of fact. >I'm not questioning if when a floor is pulled if further floors >worth of destruction will occur, obviously it will. >The question is in a building such as the twin towers or other tall >conventional buildings if a floor near the top is pulled if the >entire thing will collapse at near freefall speeds. All other buildings destroyed by this method, on purpose or by accident, have fallen at freefall speeds. >I would expect in the case of the WTC that a lot of it would >collapse, but I would think it might stop 2/3rds of the way down . . . You have that backward. When the floor near the top has enough energy to break the next one down, that adds one floor to the mass of falling material, increasing the total mass that strikes the next floor down. After ten floors collapse you have 10 floors worth of additional mass falling down. This is not quite true, because some of the material falls out the sides and straight down, but most of it joins the total mass of falling material, and adds to the force of the reaction. Two-thirds down you have *far* greater force striking each additional floor, and much greater damage. If anything, it should go faster. >, and at the very least to occur far more slowly than freefall >speeds which means that the building offered 0 resistance which is >at odds with the conservation of energy. As Stephen A. Lawrence already pointed out on this forum, the breaking reaction occurs at the speed of sound. A floor either breaks or it does not break within a fraction of a second. The energy absorbed by the breaking is absorbed in that fraction of a second and the reaction continues nearly as quickly as it would in free fall. You can see from the 9/11 photos -- and from the photos of other buildings deliberately destroyed by this method -- that the speed is a little slower than free fall. Material thrown out the side hits the ground a little sooner than the falling bulk of the building. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 08:57:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EFvRNd022247; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:57:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EFvQlK022225; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:57:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:57:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=W6NOTlk42eEZ8GN7+6TK75i+H2D1+Sre6QM7jxpkn9+hi4rjUjZIpEPcQYCZoAdzrkRI0/GWV+f5RcgGNZxgHiwE901mhvbpCr3QhXGjS3fj1kZ1AsaYov5Ch0c8FhpjhCVnqsPlsG7YlsTn3vzcHHeeaZTPghosMcdXs+Ov1js= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nd/cJTa37hOlhsA1MQliziacdhsbLDwLyIfXua0ddSOiKDzfnMD3G5fq7YhZXHNg5h25v45CZE/5hhuejioW/Se0tUw1/L3katxJe6So8a4U1WzUrC2UULcxwg9dksd/Pyy3GAOD3dBdzedvrTrp9fQvPl8bJpxLSI47Ekgcnos= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703140857k38ed7663icc69db0dc38dc8de@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:57:23 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "David Thomson" Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <004901c7664c$1f4ff570$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_53582_4834092.1173887843217" References: <538fa8f10703140759r45c4bf08ne03d437d8310892d@mail.gmail.com> <004901c7664c$1f4ff570$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73764 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_53582_4834092.1173887843217 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 14/03/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Hi Esa > >i did try to give ginzburg some stuff on walter schauberger (who took > great pains to take viktor's realizations back into mathematics >and phys= ics > and, well, science), lets see what happens. after all, walter schauberger > did publish quite a bit on the hyperbolic >open-path geometry that seemed= to > mesh in with everything else. should be interesting to see how the two > walters coincide, walter >russell and schauberge.r > What exactly did you give to Vladimir? Until you mentioned "Walter," I > had not realized he added to his work. A quick Google search shows his w= eb > site is in German. My limited American language skills have hidden Walte= r's > work from me. > Walter Schauberger bio in english: http://www.kupferspuren.at/CopperTools/e_WS.htm just a few hints that there are such things as these: 1) Radlberger - Der hyperbolische Kegel nach Walter Schauberger (2002) whic= h is full of math and all that stuff, which seems available, well, online. 2) that PKS have published a few calendars consisting of hyperbolic cone geometry, and materials based on that (the calendars are in the german language) 3) that PKS is somewhat available, heres some info about them: from source#1: ( http://schauberger-books.org.uk/links.shtml#links ) After his father died, Walter Schauberger set up, in 1962, the Pythagoras Kepler School (PKS) at Engleithen in the Salzkammergut mountains of Upper Austria. He was a physicist and mathematician, and set out to validate mathematically his father's research= . His particular interests were harmonic theories (the monochord) and conceptions of non-Euclidian geometry (plane sections of a hyperbolic cone)= . He never published his research; however, Callum Coats, who studied with Walter at the PKS , is currently writing up some of Walter's work. It was intended that Walter's eldest son, a physicist, Dr. Tilman Schauberger should succeed him at the PKS but, in the event, Tilman died shortly after his father's death in 1994. As a result, Walter's younger son J=F6rg gave up his work in the Austrian media to help save his grandfather's work. Aided by his wife, he runs courses at the PKS for those who wish to learn more about the Eco-technology heritage. Every year, there are usually about six seminars in German, with participants from Austria, Germany, Switzerland, but also from Italy, Hungary, the Benelux Countries or from Scandinavia. Less frequently they now also run international seminars in English, bringing together people from all over the world who are engaged i= n Schauberger-inspired research, to share their findings. Speakers at these seminars are specialists or technicians in water or environmental issues wh= o are willing to follow unorthodox ways of studying how Nature works. Members of the PKS now give lectures in many different countries round the world. *Water and the vortex* are the present main topics of study at the PKS. However, they intend to test Viktor's ideas for river balancing with energy bodies and flow guides to help rivers flow naturally and to protect valuabl= e land and property from flooding. *The Schauberger Archives* are open for research by appointment - see the PKS website. The PKS copper gardening tools, books, cards and videos are on sale by mail order. from source#2: Viktor Schauberger's archive had originally been maintained by his son Walter Schauberger, a mathematics and physics graduate, and is now administered by the immediate family. Walter Schauberger was deeply involve= d in the further teaching and researching of his father's discoveries which were based on acute observations of nature; and he brought these perception= s into accord with harmonic theories of Pythagoras and Johannes Kepler. In reverence for these great scientists, Walter Schauberger named the research centre in Engleithen the PYTHAGORAS KEPLER SCHOOL (PKS) and embraced their formulated research into the term the PYTHAGORAS KEPLER SYSTEM. After an interruption (Walter Schauberger died in 1994), regular PKS-seminars were re-established in summer 1996 in the VILLA ROTHSTEIN. A C > shame again that helicola.com is offline. > I wonder what the problem is? Everything seemed fine last fall when we > were emailing back and forth. Maybe he got a government contract? > > > one idea comes to mind, maybe the server has just xpired. > > While researching on Walter I found another related Schauberger site to b= e > offline. > > Schaubergers inventions > you can easily access this site by going to http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135= /victor.htm however, it is the Energy21 site, which is available elsewhere. like http://www.linux-host.org/energy/ http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/index.html http://energy21.freeservers.com/ the energy21 database is sometimes referred to as "free energy database cd-rom", which would be available via say, p2ps. however, theres quite a bit more on viktor schauberger via frank germano's website. http://www.frank.germano.com/viktorschauberger.htm this is probably one of the better pages on the man. - however nowhere is what he accomplished really truly dissected and reduced into bitesize infobursts. unfortunately it cant be said that energy21 is the definitive place to go into - neither are the books on him - although everything will help, especially the IET-community's reports on "Self-Organizing Flow Technology"= . What inventions related to Viktor and Walter Schauberger do you consider to > be of particular interest and why? > viktor's log-flumes, repulsine, klimator, heimkraftwerk, vortex pipes, repulsator, centripete. none of these have really been developed further, not properly, because what viktor understood, was way too complex for engineers to be able to replicate. i mean, its 30s 40s and someone walks in with ideas and sketches of living machines (which it has become obvious nowadays, would have utilized Cavitation/Waterhammer-effect, molecular disassociation using microwave frequencies caused by spinning cavities, and so on) Walter took out i believe only a couple of patents, one of which was a vortical method of purifying exhaust fumes, look up patent here are some practical uses that http://www.viktorschauberger.at/ has notices on: http://www.pks.or.at/drinkingwater.html http://www.pks.or.at/flood.html http://www.pks.or.at/snowandice.html http://www.pks.or.at/forestry.html to me, it would appear that viktor schauberger learned something that the hydrologists of that time, and maybe not even now, havent figured out, abou= t the movement of nature, and worked to develop devices that would utilize th= e natural movement, instead of the technological way of moving material (whic= h creates pressure, heat and, well, combustion/explosion). Dave > a conversation with Frau Ingeborg Schauberger, Walter Schauberger's wife: http://www.implementations.co.uk/schau_related/interview_frau_schauberger.h= tml anyway, its all a very interesting subject, barely touched by the few scattered documentaries on him, let alone the books. ------=_Part_53582_4834092.1173887843217 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 14/03/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:

Hi Esa
>i did try to give ginzburg some stuff on walter schauberger (who took great pains to take viktor's realizations back into mathematics >and physics and, well, = science), lets see what happens. after all, walter schauberger did publish quite a bi= t on the hyperbolic >open-path geometry that seemed to mesh in with everythin= g else. should be interesting to see how the two walters coincide, walter >russe= ll and schauberge.r
What exactly did you give to Vladimir?  Until you mentioned "Walter," I had not realized he added to his work.  A quick Google search shows his web site is in German.  My limited American language skills have hidden Walter's work from me. 

Walter Schauberger bio in english: http://www.kupfer= spuren.at/CopperTools/e_WS.htm

just a few hints that there are such things as these:
1) Radlberger - Der hyperbolische Kegel nach = Walter Schauberger (2002) which is full of math and all that stuff, = which seems available, well, online.

2) that PKS have published a few calendars consisting of hyperbolic= cone geometry, and materials based on that (the calendars are in the germa= n language)

3) that PKS is somewhat available, heres some info about= them:=20

from source#1: ( http://schauberger-books.org.uk/links.shtml#links )
After his father died, Walter Schauberger set = up, in 1962, the=20 Pythagoras Kepler School (PKS) at Engleithen in the Salzkammergut mountains of Upper Austria. He was a physicist and mathematician, and set out to validate mathematically his father's research. His particular interests w= ere harmonic theories (the m= onochord) and conceptions of no= n-Euclidian geometry (plane sections of a hyperbolic cone). He never published h= is research; however, Callum Coats, who studied with W= alter at the PKS, is currently writing up some of Walter's work. It was intended that Walter's eldest son, a physicist, Dr. Tilman Schauberger should succeed him at the PKS but, in the event, Tilman died shor= tly after his father's death in 1994.
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09
As a result, Walter's younger son J=F6rg gave up his work in the Austrian media to help save his grandfather's work. Aided by his wife, he runs courses at the PKS for those who wish to learn more about the Eco-technology heritage. Every year, there are usually about six seminars in German, with participants from Austria, Germany, Switzerland, but also from Italy, Hungary, the Benelux Countries or from Scandinavia. Less frequently they now also run international seminars in English, bringing together people from all over the world who are engaged in Schauberger-inspired research, to share their findings. Speakers at these seminars are specialists or technicians in water or environmental issues who are willing to follow unorthodox ways of studying how Nature works. Members of the PKS n= ow give lectures in many different countries round the world.
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09Water and the vortex are the present main= topics of study at the PKS. However, they intend to test Viktor's ideas for river balancing with energy bodies and flow guides to help rivers flow naturally and to protect valuable land and property from flooding.
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09The Schauberger Archives are open for res= earch by appointment - see the PKS website. The PK= S copper gardening tools, books, cards and videos are on sale by mail order= .


from source#2:
Viktor Schauberger's archive had origi= nally been maintained by his son Walter Schauberger, a mathematics and physics graduate, and is now administered by the immediate family. Walter Schauberger was deeply involved in the further teaching and researching of his father's discoveries which were based on acute observations of nature; and he brought these perceptions into = accord with harmonic theories of Pythagoras and Johannes Kepler. In reverence for these great scientists, Walter Schauberger named the research centre in Engleithen the PYTHAGORAS KEPLER SCHOOL (PKS) and embraced their formulated research into the term the PYTHAGORAS KEPLER SYSTEM. After an interruption (Walter Schauberger died in 1994), regular PKS-seminars were re-established in summer 1996 in the VILLA ROTHSTEIN. A C

> shame again that helicola.com is offline.
I wonder what t= he problem is?  Everything seemed fine last fall when we were emailing back and forth.  Maybe he = got a government contract?

> one idea comes to mind, maybe the server has just xpired.

While researching on Walter I foun= d another related Schauberger site to be offline.

Schaubergers inventions

=
you can easily access this site by going to
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135= /victor.htm

however, it is the Energy21 site, which is available= elsewhere. like
http://www.linux-host.org/energy/
http://ww= w.icestuff.com/~energy21/index.html
http://energy21.freeservers.co= m/
the energy21 database is sometimes referred to as &= quot;free energy database cd-rom", which would be available via say, p= 2ps.
however, theres quite a bit more on viktor schaube= rger via frank germano's website.
http://www.f= rank.germano.com/viktorschauberger.htm
this is probably one o= f the better pages on the man. - however nowhere is what he accomplished re= ally truly dissected and reduced into bitesize infobursts.

unfortunately it cant be said that energy21 is the definitive place= to go into - neither are the books on him - although everything will help,= especially the IET-community's reports on "Self-Organizing Flow T= echnology".=20

What inve= ntions related to Viktor and Walter Schauberger do you consider to be of particular interest and why?


viktor's log-flumes, r= epulsine, klimator, heimkraftwerk, vortex pipes, repulsator, centripete. no= ne of these have really been developed further, not properly, because what = viktor understood, was way too complex for engineers to be able to replicat= e. i mean, its 30s 40s and someone walks in with ideas and sketches of livi= ng machines (which it has become obvious nowadays, would have utilized Cavi= tation/Waterhammer-effect, molecular disassociation using microwave frequen= cies caused by spinning cavities, and so on)

Walter took out i believe only a couple of patents, one of wh= ich was a vortical method of purifying exhaust fumes, look up patent
here are some practical uses that http://www.viktorschauberger.at/ has notices on:
http://www.pks.or.at/drinkingwater.html
http://www.pks.or.at/flood= .html
http://www.pks.or.= at/snowandice.html
ht= tp://www.pks.or.at/forestry.html


to me, it would appear that= viktor schauberger learned something that the hydrologists of that time, a= nd maybe not even now, havent figured out, about the movement of nature, an= d worked to develop devices that would utilize the natural movement, instea= d of the technological way of moving material (which creates pressure, heat= and, well, combustion/explosion).


Dave


a conversation with Frau Ingeborg Schauberger, Walte= r Schauberger's wife: http://www.implementations.co.uk/schau_related/interview_frau_schauberger.h= tml


anyway, its all a very interesting subject, barel= y touched by the few scattered documentaries on him, let alone the books.

------=_Part_53582_4834092.1173887843217-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 09:01:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EG1Og0025937; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:01:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EG1Mog025922; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:01:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:01:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Apb10XbDdvq/OmlWvKDPpCvhHW/9XtULu8XKm2bqE570i/smEymGU+lDgvxwBxUHHXqIP4jbn6k4Tjgj8FGiTXqZWTbeYNon887ObW4l2DrX9DjSzAok3yl551gJOlXTdmpAUfczf1mDOd5exPlTt7GnaSTiP9OHjVajURtnc3o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oS7jf0T2vjZryIpxzcoMampZcEYHqAenEazdHHgb6K/Athr+1q/z7BAsAqp7kILPWQxLTcuBsuqqneKi+VQXgcJZGbXUzu4NFiAfCWe+VYrBfbiiPZXBMO1t50zfjz4CA6XovWL0cgaWfg0CUFMSCax4ff3k8crcbpDgxj8UnUw= Message-ID: <45F82A5C.6090101@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:01:16 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <003901c7663d$e8f81880$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <003901c7663d$e8f81880$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73765 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems only right to shed some light given Dave talks a lot about quantum aspects. Here are a few quotes from Dave's website --> ----------- "This is a significant breakthrough and demonstrates the Aether Physics Model not only describes quantum structure, *BUT CAN ALSO DESCRIBE QUANTUM MECHANICS*" "This model provides new insights to quantum physical structures not presently solved by the Standard Model" "According to modern physics, the graviton is the quantum of the gravitational field. The language is different from the Aether Physics Model concerning the quantum of gravity" "However, unlike the Standard Model, the Aether unit is not only the quantum of the gravitational field; it is the quantum of all the fields. In fact, in the Aether Physics Model, the Aether unit is the only quantum that can produce a field of any kind since it also is the source of space-resonance." "As an adjunct to Quantum Mechanics, this book is a foundational introduction to the mathematical Aether Physics Model." "A single theory of angular momentum, which is encapsulated by quantum Aether units, explains the structure of quantum existence.." "The quantum Universe has the quality of space-resonance, as opposed to space-time." "The Aether unit is like an individual piece of real estate in the quantum Universe" "The Aether is a quantum rotating magnetic field, which maintains the onn half-spin, and is the source of the structure of quantum physical matter." "Quantum measurements will show that all true quantum constants have a definite structure, imparted by the Aether." "Quantum matter has only two dimensions of length, that is, it only has surface characteristic." "Since almost all controllable physical processes occur through interactions of the electron and photon, the quantum measurements of the electron usually define the quantum measurement units." "Think of Aether as being a quantum hole in which subatomic matter is able to reside. Onta get their physical geometry from these quantum holes, but the quantum holes also impart the spin nature to onta. The "quantum holes" have a toroidal structure in the shape of a double loxodrome, as seen in the image above." "Aether is a dynamic fabric of space-resonance composed of independent, quantum units." "The Aether Physics Model sees all stable quantum matter (onta) as primary angular momentum" "In one quantum moment, there are a given number of photon fronts arriving at an atom." "The bi-directional spinning toroids component of the equation are equal to the quantum measurement unit of double cardioid." Header of your chapter 6: "Redefining units in terms of distributed charge and quantum measurements." "Aether unit, it moves one quantum distance (Compton wavelength) in the direction it is going. The speed of light is one quantum distance times the quantum frequency." "In the Aether Physics Model, quantum constants offer a new analysis tool for examining quantum processes." "We have discovered a new geometrically and mathematically correct foundation for physics, which precisely quantifies the quantum structure." The main header in your home page --> "Quantum AetherDynamics Institute" ----------- It's only right to request your knowledge of quantum physics. So I'll ask you yet one more time ... Can you do QM mathematics? Can you solve QM problems? Are you a specialist in the field of Quantum physics? On your sites home page, "This is a significant breakthrough and demonstrates the Aether Physics Model not only describes quantum structure, ***BUT CAN ALSO DESCRIBE QUANTUM MECHANICS*** and has the potential to far exceed the capability of the Standard Model." Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 09:47:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EGlPg5027704; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:47:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EGlMo6027652; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:47:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:47:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:46:30 -0600 Message-ID: <005d01c76658$6673aa80$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F82297.9030300@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdmTdLj89TVKTKFSCW6O5CdDuoijgABwYPg Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2EGlFfG027528 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73766 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > Quote from www.16pi2.com > "the Aether Physics Model not only describes quantum structure, but can also describe quantum mechanics" For the benefit of others who would like to see this quote in context, it actually reads, "BREAKING NEWS: We have succeeded in developing the electron binding energy equation for the 1s orbitals. This is a significant breakthrough and demonstrates the Aether Physics Model not only describes quantum structure, but can also describe quantum mechanics and has the potential to far exceed the capability of the Standard Model. " I believe I have mentioned the electron binding energy equation over a dozen times so far on this list. The electron binding energy equation is our first foray into stepping beyond quantum structure and expanding on quantum mechanics. > The domain name www.16pi2.com is registered under your name. And whose name did you expect it would be registered under? > I took a peak at your website to discover one needs to *buy* your book to study your Aether theory. Also I could not help but notice your obvious *Donations* request on your homepage. Err, did you expect we would be giving the book away for free? You might not be aware of this, but nearly every physics book has a price attached to it. This is not a conspiracy, it is an economic necessity. The same goes for donations. We are not the first IRS 501(c)3 registered non-profit science research organization to request donations on the Internet. As for the theory being available for free, I have posted a link to our 27 page white paper numerous times on this list, which gives a very good synopsis of what is in the book as far as understanding the scientific basis of the Aether Physics Model (and it is free). This white paper was also published in the September/October 2006 issue of Infinite Energy Magazine, which incidentally has a price tag. > So it appears we agree that your APM cannot predict the double slit experiment. The APM doesn't explain why you are so obnoxious, but that is not within the scope of the theory, either. > May I ask what your APM can do that Quantum Physics cannot? Apparently you can. The real question, based upon your professed dislike for Aether theories, is will you listen to the answer? I have spoken several times in this thread and other threads on this list about the APM predicting the relative strengths of the fundamental forces, predicting the 1s orbital electron binding energies, and predicting the distributed and reciprocal natures of charges. And this is just a short list. Certainly, a mathematically quantified Unified Force Theory, electron binding energy equation, and proper quantification of charge structures is worthy of scientific acknowledgement? >> And I said anything remotely similar to this... where? > My claim is that energy is capturable form ambient temperature. The capacitor experiment demonstrates this. I'll ask you again, do you believe a capacitor connected to a resistor captures energy from ambient temperature? You are either dense, naïve, or both. I have merely been throwing back the same kind of mindless cynicism at your work as you threw at mine. You have gotten really worked up about this and put on quite a defensive display. Only if you give my work the proper analysis it deserves would I even consider giving you the same courtesy. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 09:52:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EGpuQZ029225; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:51:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EGptfs029208; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:51:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:51:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:51:32 -0600 Message-ID: <005e01c76659$0ef52da0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F82A5C.6090101@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdmUkx9FAZO+WwCQQqlXdaAGdFS8QABk5Gg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73767 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, Thanks for posting that fine list of comments from 16pi2. Too bad you didn't take the time to actually read what these excellent topics are about. Although, I would be delighted to expand on any of them should anybody with interest request me to. As for answering your question about QM, I did that in my most recent post. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Paul Lowrance [mailto:energymover@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:01 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions It seems only right to shed some light given Dave talks a lot about quantum aspects. Here are a few quotes from Dave's website --> ----------- "This is a significant breakthrough and demonstrates the Aether Physics Model not only describes quantum structure, *BUT CAN ALSO DESCRIBE QUANTUM MECHANICS*" "This model provides new insights to quantum physical structures not presently solved by the Standard Model" "According to modern physics, the graviton is the quantum of the gravitational field. The language is different from the Aether Physics Model concerning the quantum of gravity" "However, unlike the Standard Model, the Aether unit is not only the quantum of the gravitational field; it is the quantum of all the fields. In fact, in the Aether Physics Model, the Aether unit is the only quantum that can produce a field of any kind since it also is the source of space-resonance." "As an adjunct to Quantum Mechanics, this book is a foundational introduction to the mathematical Aether Physics Model." "A single theory of angular momentum, which is encapsulated by quantum Aether units, explains the structure of quantum existence.." "The quantum Universe has the quality of space-resonance, as opposed to space-time." "The Aether unit is like an individual piece of real estate in the quantum Universe" "The Aether is a quantum rotating magnetic field, which maintains the onn half-spin, and is the source of the structure of quantum physical matter." "Quantum measurements will show that all true quantum constants have a definite structure, imparted by the Aether." "Quantum matter has only two dimensions of length, that is, it only has surface characteristic." "Since almost all controllable physical processes occur through interactions of the electron and photon, the quantum measurements of the electron usually define the quantum measurement units." "Think of Aether as being a quantum hole in which subatomic matter is able to reside. Onta get their physical geometry from these quantum holes, but the quantum holes also impart the spin nature to onta. The "quantum holes" have a toroidal structure in the shape of a double loxodrome, as seen in the image above." "Aether is a dynamic fabric of space-resonance composed of independent, quantum units." "The Aether Physics Model sees all stable quantum matter (onta) as primary angular momentum" "In one quantum moment, there are a given number of photon fronts arriving at an atom." "The bi-directional spinning toroids component of the equation are equal to the quantum measurement unit of double cardioid." Header of your chapter 6: "Redefining units in terms of distributed charge and quantum measurements." "Aether unit, it moves one quantum distance (Compton wavelength) in the direction it is going. The speed of light is one quantum distance times the quantum frequency." "In the Aether Physics Model, quantum constants offer a new analysis tool for examining quantum processes." "We have discovered a new geometrically and mathematically correct foundation for physics, which precisely quantifies the quantum structure." The main header in your home page --> "Quantum AetherDynamics Institute" ----------- It's only right to request your knowledge of quantum physics. So I'll ask you yet one more time ... Can you do QM mathematics? Can you solve QM problems? Are you a specialist in the field of Quantum physics? On your sites home page, "This is a significant breakthrough and demonstrates the Aether Physics Model not only describes quantum structure, ***BUT CAN ALSO DESCRIBE QUANTUM MECHANICS*** and has the potential to far exceed the capability of the Standard Model." Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 10:28:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EHSWLX013210; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:28:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EHSUCv013178; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:28:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:28:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ag1mvdtuOmn5ppm46u3xM+G0iboFxW6kfYAEAWHxSTqYbBmY6zwkv5ms2bgWhJ8UH/Cft5zKDhBKGa4ERT+ozS0nRjk7hmeRYuUEUxPA7DoiZ0/QqGzDrU8cY29rosNZlUs3hQHhB3QylXqUy2wf86Oy7wBHzy6KVt8+01TBa9s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AKDIOxrvL8GHhvnN+u7I8kcm9Kvo60r2cbc7L876b9eE6teRY5rNUWKvIFnEgvOziUaY02nxHBkm4xdyhHdtNEM/TT6w0KT9H6nn5bMJrQnAvhHcGL5nu8oeDSei2n8tMNjGtcPgBQ6/t+Vm8l0W+hAC/V1se4BW29kQz7WEiw4= Message-ID: <45F83EC6.5010607@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:28:22 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <005d01c76658$6673aa80$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <005d01c76658$6673aa80$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73768 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Thanks for posting that fine list of comments from 16pi2. Too bad you > didn't take the time to actually read what these excellent topics are about. > Although, I would be delighted to expand on any of them should anybody with > interest request me to. No problem brother. I posted from the start of our discussion one method that would catch my attention and most of the physics community. David Thomson wrote: [snip] >> I took a peak at your website to discover one needs to *buy* your book to > study your Aether theory. Also I could not help but notice your obvious > *Donations* request on your homepage. > > Err, did you expect we would be giving the book away for free? Yes, electronically. There are countless sites that freely and gladly allow people place their research. I use Peswiki.com. IMHO here's a significant difference between you and I --> From the beginning of my research I have placed the following statement at the top of my research web page: "Note This project and research requires no funding or payments of any kind. No payment is requested nor has any ever been accepted for this project and research. This researcher has the necessary equipment and money to continue this project and research." You push your Aether theory, but when the poor scientist goes to your website they discover you are selling a book. > You might > not be aware of this, but nearly every physics book has a price attached to > it. We're talking about your proposed theory. Read about Peer review --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review >> So it appears we agree that your APM cannot predict the double slit > experiment. > > The APM doesn't explain why you are so obnoxious, but that is not within the > scope of the theory, either. Again, please stop the ad hominem. I can assure you are wasting your emotional energy on such remarks, which have no negative effect on me. So please refrain yourself. >> May I ask what your APM can do that Quantum Physics cannot? > > Apparently you can. The real question, based upon your professed dislike > for Aether theories, is will you listen to the answer? I have spoken > several times in this thread and other threads on this list about the APM > predicting the relative strengths of the fundamental forces, predicting the > 1s orbital electron binding energies, and predicting the distributed and > reciprocal natures of charges. And this is just a short list. Certainly, a > mathematically quantified Unified Force Theory, electron binding energy > equation, and proper quantification of charge structures is worthy of > scientific acknowledgement? After asking you far too many times, and you avoiding the question, one has to presume you are not qualified at quantum physics. Again, compare your tactics to mine. From the beginning of my research I have placed the following statement at the top of my research web page --> My quote: "Note This project and research requires no funding or payments of any kind. No payment is requested nor has any ever been accepted for this project and research. This researcher has the necessary equipment and money to continue this project and research." >>> And I said anything remotely similar to this... where? > >> My claim is that energy is capturable form ambient temperature. The > capacitor experiment demonstrates this. I'll ask you again, do you believe > a capacitor connected to a resistor captures energy from ambient > temperature? > > You are either dense, naïve, or both. I have merely been throwing back the > same kind of mindless cynicism at your work as you threw at mine. You have > gotten really worked up about this and put on quite a defensive display. That's the usual response I get. For the umpteenth time I request people not attach emotions to my statements. I could literally write a significant post of just your "assumptions." You "assume" I got worked up. Your APM makes broad claims. My requests are legit. Your so-called quote, "throwing back the same kind of mindless cynicism" was obviously not legit. I am not proposing a new theory or model. So I conclude --> 1. You agree that a capacitor can capture some energy contained in ambient temperature. 2. You are not qualified in the field Quantum physics. 3. Your APM cannot predict the double slit experiments or many other experiments and effects that QM successfully predicts. 4. You want scientists to study your APM, but you charge real money for the book. Furthermore you ask for donations. > Only if you give my work the proper analysis it deserves would I even > consider giving you the same courtesy. > I tried by asking you if your theory predicts what QM has successfully predicted. I'll even take another step forward by asking what a scientist could do with your model? Could one use your APM in a computer software simulation? That may not interest the physics community as a whole, but it could catch my interest since I write software simulations. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 10:35:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EHZ8vO019406; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:35:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EHZ7AN019387; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:35:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:35:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:35:06 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.14 (On: webmail.textdrivehosting.com) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001401c764b4$302f3700$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "Zachary Jones" Bounce-To: "Zachary Jones" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2EHZ64L019332 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73769 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The original version of this mail got lost a few days ago. (I tried to attach the PDFs) Here are some studies dealing with O6, from our fancy library: http://www.newalexandria.org/images/O6_studies.zip Perhaps Richard, or someone else in Dime Box Texas, will have time to pull out something useful from them. I only searched Elsevier briefly, there are more extensive chem databases Zak On 3/12/2007, "R.C.Macaulay" wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michel Jullian" >To: >Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:20 AM >Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation > > >>> We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems in the 1000PPD and above range. >> >> What's a PPD? > Ozone gas is measured in pounds per day .. PPD >> >>> Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are >>> extremely short lived and it is deadly. >> >> Not deadly (I read somewhere that no casualty has ever been attributed to ozone), but it's very painful if you inhale too much of it, very much like inhaling bleach, no wonder it has a similar effect on microorganisms. > > Very deadly.. a extreme oxidant. >> >> How is the ozone laden air pressurized in the industrial units you're using, air pump upstream of the ozone generation I imagine? And what's the operating principle of the O3 generator itself, is it the AC operated glass tube type? > >The incoming air is compressed, chilled and dried. The air enters the electric arc chambers 8" diameter pipe runs( depending on type) and mixed into the main process water . The air handling systems can be pressured or vacuum. > >> >>> Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a "grease" to slide the O3 >>> into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. >>> But if it is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the point.. >>> it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 catches on .. by using a form of velocity >>> shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of a parabolic segment shaped "knife". >> >> I doubt this makes the slightest sense to anyone except perhaps yourself, but hey this is Vortex :) >> > > Hey ! You're not in Kindergarten.. Vortex is for people with some elastic in their minds. > >>> We have been successful using this method for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play >>> fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and have >>> the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had our Gasmastrrr units returned for >>> service that have the UHMW rotating member >> >> What's this, your tank-bottom ozonized air bubbler? > > See .. www.gasmastrrr.com The gas is discharged into large mixing tanks filled with water. The off-gas ozone that fails to mix is either recycled or is destroyed so Michel doesn't learn the hard way that the stuff can kill ya. > >> >>> shot with electro-chem pitting >> >> Chem pitting more likely. I guess you mean electro-chem like pitting? > > Electro-chem pitting description covers a range.. strange to see the results.. if you ever saw the results of propeller or pump impeller cavitation you would understand. >> >>> that is a form of SL cavitation. >> >> What's this ? > Here goes.... sonolumeniscense.. long for SL.. >> >>> Ultra high molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that. >> >> Very few materials are ozone resistant Richard. Have you checked the ozone resistance of this particular PE? > > Re-check you data.. excellent resistance to O3 at below 120 degrees.. maybe some swelling at 140 degrees. > >> Also some materials catalyze ozone destruction (reversal to O2), such materials in your ozonized air circuit would result in not much ozone reaching the water you want to treat. >> >> Michel >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "R.C.Macaulay" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:25 AM >> Subject: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation >> >> >> Blank >> Michael wrote.. >> >>>Are you into the design of an ozonizer Richard? >> >> Zachary wrote.. >>>Would you be unveiling a master plan to mention what you need that a >> commercial ozone unit won't provide? >> >> >> We have some experience in industrial size ozone generating systems in the 1000PPD and above range. The problems, the maintenance and the trouble mixing ozone beg for better technology. It seems that microwave may have some application considering the huge transformer banks required to boost voltage for the present technology, plus the problems with drying the air or the dangers of using pure oxy. Ozone gas is so stubborn that it resists mixing with water, the residual properties are extremely short lived and it is deadly. Takes the finger nail polish off my nails >> >> Somewhere lurking in the back of my mind is an idea for using O6 as a "grease" to slide the O3 into the water molecule.. I know, Yes , I know it can't be done because O6 may not be O6.. hmmm. But if it is.. and it can be "borrowed" while it's extremely short life is around to argue the point.. it may be possible to " fold" the two into water before O6 catches on .. by using a form of velocity shear upwards to 150f/s periphical velocity of a parabolic segment shaped "knife". We have been successful using this method for oxidation systems but O3 alone doesn't want to play fair. Microwave may be the trigger to generate O3 and O6 in the actual water process stream and have the mixing as a function of the O3 generating process. We have had our Gasmastrrr units returned for service that have the UHMW rotating member shot with electro-chem pitting that is a form of SL cavitation. Ultra high molecular weight polyethelene "does not pit".. we all know that. >> >> Richard >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.9/719 - Release Date: 3/12/2007 8:41 AM >> >>) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 11:21:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EILL4o004552; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:21:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EILJbA004534; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:21:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:21:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:20:48 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <004601c76624$3d948d70$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73770 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote:- > > < gasoline as a vapour. While you need to exert some effort to vaporise the > gasoline, the COP is still much bigger>> > > No Harry, the error you made is exactly the one I pointed out using an > accelerator (gas) pedal as an analogy. I don't know how long you have been > around, but Jed and I and Ed Storms and Terry Blanton have been commenting > and arguing about this subject since the news broke in 1989. Many people > have brought up your point before. Most people "skilled in the art", and > those who follow them, realise that the electrolysis is only a means of > preparation of the conditions necessary for CF to occur. The fact that "heat > after death" is a well known phenomenon, where there is no further > electrolysis (no input electrical, or other, energy) but heat continues to > be generated for some time ( approaching "infinite" COP), shows the relative > meaninglessness of chasing this form of "COP" - which is exactly what Ed > Storms said originally. Try not teaching your grandmother to suck eggs for a > change... > Input power can come from outside the system or from inside the system. I interpret "heat after death" as evidence of a self-powered system, i.e. a portion of the heat produced is being consumed by the system to maintain the production of excess heat. If you think COP is meaningless in this situation, then it is because you have a (theoretical) bias against my interpretation. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 11:27:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EIRddb017137; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:27:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EIRcaY017125; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:27:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:27:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:27:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <004601c76624$3d948d70$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <_KyNGD.A.hLE.Z6D-FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73771 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > I don't know how long you have been > around, but Jed and I and Ed Storms and Terry Blanton have been commenting > and arguing about this subject since the news broke in 1989. FYI. I've been following CF on and off since 1989, when I was 24. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 11:30:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EIUDMm011244; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:30:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EIUBRL011202; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:30:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:30:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:29:44 -0600 Message-ID: <006001c76666$c70fd770$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0061_01C76634.7C756770" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703140857k38ed7663icc69db0dc38dc8de@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdmUk0W+116YCqQTwCYTpvyGSOCmgADSccA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73772 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C76634.7C756770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Esa, Thanks for the excellent links. You seem to have spent a lot of time investigating Schauberger's work. Some of the technological applications being purveyed by the Schauberger family first appeared to me as charlatan in nature. The seemingly static vortex coils, for example, are described as "energizing," "living," and "resonating." In the classical scientific sense of these terms, such claims are hogwash. However, in the Aether Physics Model, the unit of conductance figures prominently in both physical matter as well as non-material existence. Non-material existence has many manifestations, just as does physical existence. "Space-time," "magnetic field," and "force" are a few instances of non-material existence. Yet, "mind," "emotion," and "sensory feeling" are also manifestations of non-material existence. There is empirical evidence in the neurosciences linking emotions to the unit of conductance. In the Aether Physics Model, conductance is equal to angular momentum per strong charge. Unless you understand "strong charge" as explained in the APM, you won't immediately appreciate the importance of this equality. Suffice it to say, vortices are based upon angular momentum of a medium. A water vortex occurs when the medium has rotation and a steady, unidirectional force (gravity) is exerted perpendicular to the rotation. Within limits, you can increase the vorticity by increasing either the angular momentum or the force. In the Aether Physics Model, the reciprocal of conductance is not resistance (as in the Standard Model), but is magnetic flux. This prediction of the APM also has empirical roots. In measurements of the Hall effect, and in separate experiments relating conductance to resistance, it has been found that conductance does not vary linearly with resistance, but does vary linearly with magnetic flux. Another prominent unit in the Aether Physics Model is eddy current, which is equal to magnetic flux squared. While doing experiments with eddy currents, I was able to determine that the eddy currents occur at a quantum level, not a macro level. http://www.16pi2.com/eddy_currents.htm Eddy current is actually an Aether vortex, which is the same thing as the quantum Aether unit but with the permeability being squared and the geometrical constant being 64pi^3 instead of 16pi^2. So it makes sense that a macro copper object in the shape of a vortex could be a natural receptacle for generating resonance of magnetic flux (magnetic flux squared is eddy current, which is Aether vortex). Although this Aether vortex object they are selling would not appear energetic in terms of physical motion, it would be energetic at the quantum scale in terms of increasing the quality of conductance in other objects it comes in contact with, as well as the conductance of the surrounding Aether environment. And since emotions and all feelings are directly related to conductance, if not its actual manifestation as perceived by the mind, then their static Aether vortex generator could very well have a positive effect on plants, animals, and human emotions. It may turn out that Schauberger's work is far more related to the Aether Physics Model than I had originally believed. If there are any English speaking persons directly affiliated with PKS who would like to communicate with me on this, I would gladly work with them. Dave http://www.implosionresearch.com/water.html http://sulis-health.co.uk/sulis/water.shtml#jug ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C76634.7C756770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Esa,

 

Thanks for the excellent = links.  You seem to have spent a lot of time investigating Schauberger’s = work. 

 

Some of the technological = applications being purveyed by the Schauberger family first appeared to me as = charlatan in nature.  The seemingly static vortex coils, for example, are = described as “energizing,” “living,” and “resonating.”  In the = classical scientific sense of these terms, such claims are = hogwash.

 

However, in the Aether Physics = Model, the unit of conductance figures prominently in both physical matter as well = as non-material existence.  Non-material existence has many = manifestations, just as does physical existence.  “Space-time,” = “magnetic field,” and “force” are a few instances of = non-material existence.  Yet, “mind,” “emotion,” and = “sensory feeling” are also manifestations of non-material existence.  = There is empirical evidence in the neurosciences linking emotions to the unit = of conductance.  In the Aether Physics Model, conductance is equal to = angular momentum per strong charge.  Unless you understand “strong = charge” as explained in the APM, you won’t immediately appreciate the = importance of this equality.  Suffice it to say, vortices are based upon = angular momentum of a medium.  A water vortex occurs when the medium has = rotation and a steady, unidirectional force (gravity) is exerted perpendicular to = the rotation.  Within limits, you can increase the vorticity by = increasing either the angular momentum or the force.

 

In the Aether Physics Model, the reciprocal of conductance is not resistance (as in the Standard Model), = but is magnetic flux.  This prediction of the APM also has empirical = roots.  In measurements of the Hall effect, and in separate experiments relating conductance to resistance, it has been found that conductance does not = vary linearly with resistance, but does vary linearly with magnetic = flux. 

 

Another prominent unit in the = Aether Physics Model is eddy current, which is equal to magnetic flux = squared.  While doing experiments with eddy currents, I was able to determine that = the eddy currents occur at a quantum level, not a macro level.  =

http://www.16pi2.com/eddy= _currents.htm

 

Eddy current is actually an Aether = vortex, which is the same thing as the quantum Aether unit but with the = permeability being squared and the geometrical constant being 64pi^3 instead of = 16pi^2.  So it makes sense that a macro copper object in the shape of a vortex = could be a natural receptacle for generating resonance of magnetic flux (magnetic = flux squared is eddy current, which is Aether vortex).  Although this = Aether vortex object they are selling would not appear energetic in terms of = physical motion, it would be energetic at the quantum scale in terms of = increasing the quality of conductance in other objects it comes in contact with, as = well as the conductance of the surrounding Aether environment.  And since = emotions and all feelings are directly related to conductance, if not its actual manifestation as perceived by the mind, then their static Aether vortex generator could very well have a positive effect on plants, animals, and = human emotions. 

 

It may turn out that = Schauberger’s work is far more related to the Aether Physics Model than I had = originally believed.  If there are any English speaking persons directly = affiliated with PKS who would like to communicate with me on this, I would gladly = work with them.

 

Dave

 

http://www.implosion= research.com/water.html

http://sulis-hea= lth.co.uk/sulis/water.shtml#jug

 

------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C76634.7C756770-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 11:44:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EIhtPT023517; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:43:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EIhsNm023503; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:43:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:43:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070314144044.03660bf8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:43:04 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: References: <004601c76624$3d948d70$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73773 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >I interpret "heat after death" as evidence of a self-powered system, >i.e. a portion of the heat produced is being consumed by the system >to maintain the production of excess heat. I do not think any power is consumed in heat after death, and I do not think that power is ever required to maintain production of excess heat. The input power of electrolysis is required to form the materials, or the NAE. Once the NAE is in place, electrolysis is no longer required. I think heat after death occurs when the deuterium in the palladium gradually evolves and reaches the surface where the NAE lives. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 11:50:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EIoqB5026248; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:50:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EIoo3L026221; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:50:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:50:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=losqQEafWGdRMHfkbYo0pczjohTyWrd8WNUbCHdYP/NRqzfmuPGqUV0GiFyMrnLTE58DdVzjgvgOfu74jpkBUAz7flA21Dpr9ULDGgG1kZ8hwYtlmFwJQnGfuOAlAJ+AaWrAGdsFr2xGXIZ2FifgpgS6SBYAWb0XKnsyhEO4eYA= ; X-YMail-OSG: u9FStQUVM1mGWbP3EK0dliLUbEn.moA0cCnwyd6jjwBL6SrEabnq8eG7BtrFLnrLckNNiRC4Ry88qaUzlfA60zcV0sRacsNdFmmTX_6ujJIT54YYc6BRklX4o_uG5ULFs.D0PWT8PGrR_F4- Message-ID: <45F84408.7010800@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:50:48 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73774 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Status: O X-Status: Zachary Jones wrote: > The original version of this mail got lost a few days ago. (I tried to > attach the PDFs) Here are some studies dealing with O6, from our fancy > library: > > http://www.newalexandria.org/images/O6_studies.zip > > Perhaps Richard, or someone else in Dime Box Texas, will have time to > pull out something useful from them. Well, sadly, I have never had the pleasure of visiting Dime Box, but there are useful implications for alternative energy. As the authors of the above ref. say - a primary motivation ... was to establish the viability of oxygen rings as high energy density materials (HEDM) ....Perhaps 06 might provide a happy meeting ground (of properties), with substantial energy content and a substantial barrier to dissociation. Methinks the apparent lack of interest in this seemingly far-out possibility, amongst the larger science community, could be somewhat related to an apparent lack of imagination. (the mental deficiency, expressed in PC terminology: being "SciFi challenged" aka "pathological skepticism") Jones My 'listmania' start to a new list: "imagine the possibilities" of O6 (feel free to add -- we need to get at least 10 of them, to get this published on someone else's top-10 list of crank science projects ;-) 1) An alternative fuel derived from air 2) A more efficient oxidizer, derived from air 3) A more efficient water purifier (to make Richard-richer, perhaps ;-) 4) A more efficient chemical intermediary 5) A more efficient way to let divers stay underwater longer AND power an underwater PTO-unit :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 12:04:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EJ3w48031511; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:03:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EJ3vrX031464; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:03:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:03:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=uZIDh4QqpouvcM3Cu1LcEhDcraXZiNz2+WXNCHIV47CDVwuEdO4n4wofoEyXyY9dFbclVTDSHnYYdMuoEyuc/yriNZ3UJtfVIZz/qQ0E2BkpMLz7nDfAfRS5Q3kO9DoY7OKsH03valT9UW2atyBn12pmDRtGviZx9uTzJ88asdI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=klBQYcHUI00Bvi2gwknWTe53aItgZFiHFVvVagcKNbjzsm2X27ZBFwnRTNQWOzaPNekunVLg1me06RkZWtcMwEzleRrzSRcHAdhE04924F3IjMj0qi8SQayfKAYIGHLm/J7Zad+Xa6yZkqbbiqgxKvmQi651T/6rMBjCcoWPe94= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703141203g641ee364k94f8f0cc6f930a4d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:03:48 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "David Thomson" Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <006001c76666$c70fd770$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_58011_22214600.1173899028831" References: <538fa8f10703140857k38ed7663icc69db0dc38dc8de@mail.gmail.com> <006001c76666$c70fd770$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73775 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_58011_22214600.1173899028831 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 14/03/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Hi Esa, > > > > Thanks for the excellent links. You seem to have spent a lot of time > investigating Schauberger's work. > > > > Some of the technological applications being purveyed by the Schauberger > family first appeared to me as charlatan in nature. The seemingly static > vortex coils, for example, are described as "energizing," "living," and > "resonating." In the classical scientific sense of these terms, such cla= ims > are hogwash. > the first thing to realize about what PKS have available in their shop is that these are not items that viktor schauberger or walter schauberger developed. as far as i can see, there is not a single viktor-schauberger-created original item for sale, or a re-production thereof. none of his suggestions on air-conditioning, water-purification (mountain-spring-quality-water) devices, or others for energy production ar= e being manufactured right now - they are hardly even understood, or even replicated to a simple degree. there are a few people such as Klaus Rauber = ( http://www.implosion-ev.de ) and Fritz Watzl, who have, somewhat created a type of a repulsine, but not at all the device that was prototyped in the 1940s. what PKS have for sale is a good over-view of all the books availabl= e on Schauberger, both in english and the german languages. also a few DVDs, but by no means all the documentaries available on Schauberger/Vortices/Implosion. when it comes to documentaries and books, they are mostly beginner introductions, i.e., this is what he did, this is when he did it, and now its up to you you and you to do research&development in order to actually have a device, or anything close to what he was suggesting. the three items on http://www.pks.or.at/drinkingwater.html , from what i ca= n see, are developed by a swiss company (first one), Klaus Rauber (the hyperbolic copper cone for water-oxygenation/energization), and Klaus Raube= r & Emil Schreiber (the swirly pipes) . the swirly pipes are the closest to what Viktor Schauberger did, as witnessed by the P=F6pel Report that was conducted in the University of Stuttgart in 1952, by Prof. Franz P=F6pel. t= his seems to be the most interesting for, erm, people coming at this from a university/math/physics angle. the P=F6pel Report has been released as an appendix to a book called Energy Evolution, by Callum Coats. here are some aspects of the P=F6pel Report: "Concerning the Preliminary Investigation of Helicoid pipes with Various Shapes of Pipes wall The Multiple In-winding, Convoluting Flow Processes Influence of the Form & Material of Pipes on Development of In-winding Flow Processes Structural Change in Water as Consequence of Multiple In-winding Flowing Motion The Prevention of Encrustation" the Institute of Ecological Technology ( www.iet-community.org ) have however done their own experiments and testing as regards to the P=F6pel Report, and have published some of their results in the iet-community report#1. ive, below, pasted some of the material in the report - in case there is interest. the main thing of interest for those who wish to look at the P=F6pel report= is the report of "negative friction" - i.e. that the pipes, through which the water flowed, were shaped in such a way as to actually accelerate the flow of water, and to negate friction. i suppose anyone really interested, and into their german language, could easily find the P=F6pel Report via University of Stuttgart - and see what they think of it. > It may turn out that Schauberger's work is far more related to the Aether > Physics Model than I had originally believed. If there are any English > speaking persons directly affiliated with PKS who would like to communica= te > with me on this, I would gladly work with them. > J=F6rg Schauberger can be contacted via , if that is= of any help. since lately ive been coming across people from universities etc who seem to be interested in the math aspect of all this, it would be great to get the Radlberger book on Walter Schauberger's hyperbolic cone geometry/math translated into the english language - if it contains the mathematical key to what Viktor was (somewhat) achieving with the limited understanding the engineers had back then.. also, Brian Desborough does mention in his book "Blueprint for a Better World" his firm opinion that whatever Schauberger, Keely and Tesla were working on, meshes in with his and Lord Kelvin's "Atomic Vortex Theory". it seemed to hint at a dynamic ether, so maybe you'll find something of interest there. as regards the dynamic ether, i trust you have seen "Energy from the Vacuum part1" released by Cheniere Media? Bearden does his best to try and explain this vacuum or the void, from which energy can be jacked ou= t of. Dave > > http://www.implosionresearch.com/water.html > > http://sulis-health.co.uk/sulis/water.shtml#jug > Sulis health is run by Alick Bartholomew who wrote a nice little beginners guide booklet (The Schauberger Keys), and a book (Hidden Nature) on the subject.. and Centre of Implosion Research seem to have been doing their own related research, altho i didn't really benefit that much from their 72 minute audio-tape , ive basically exhausted the beginners information that there is, and am looking to move on to the acoustic aspects of it, instead of looping around looking at devices x y and z and trying to figure those, or Viktor's way of thinking out. what is however interesting is that come august 2007, there will be a International Workshop on Natural Energies, held in Malm=F6, Sweden, partly organized by the IET-community, and that should be an interesting get-together. also, Klaus Rauber did mention that he has a new website incoming, hopefully with more information and in the english language. * This report is based on the experiments made by Viktor Schauberger and Prof= . Franz Popel at the Institute of Technology in Stuttgart in 1952 [31]. One of the objectives of these experiments was to investigate the possibility of using different kinds of pipes with rotating water, in order to separate the water phase from a suspension of hydrophobic material. The underlying idea was to use a vessel connected to a straight pipe from below. Water was injected tangentially and was allowed to swirl down into the pipe. A vortex would appear, and particles in the swirling flow would accumulate at the centre o= f the vortex, where the pressure was the least. With suitably designed pipes it was then possible to separate the hydrophobic material. The importance of the design of the inlet vessel was also studied. By using a rectangular and a round vessel, two rather different cases could be studied. Not only straight pipes were used, but also conical and spiralling pipes were used. Pipes made of different materials, such as glass and copper, were studied as well. The experiments were extended into investigating the frictional losses of different pipes and materials. The results were rather astonishing. Schauberger and Popel observed that th= e frictional resistance decreased the more conical and spiralling the pipes were made. Pipes made of copper had a lower flow resistance than pipes made of glass. The spiralling copper pipe produced an undulating friction curve as the flow was increased. At some flows a negative friction was observed, as if water seemed to lose contact with the walls an= d fall freely through the pipe. How to interpret this remains to be seen. An underlying principle of the Stuttgart experiments is the rotation of water around its own axis, while it is flowing along a spiralling path with decreasing radius. The rotational velocity increases towards the centre where a sub-pressure exists. Let us study a "bath tub vortex" to illustrate this. With a slow enough flow, water flows more or less straight down into the pipe. But at a critical flow a transition takes place, a bifurcation, and water starts to swirl in a vortex. In order to make water organize itself into this kind of flow, we only have to create the right conditions, which in turn will generate the spontaneous emergence of = a subpressure axis. This could be arranged by using a suitable geometry of the vessels, o= r by introducing different kinds of guide vanes, pressure sinks etc. (More generally, we hav= e to look at the system and its interaction with its surroundings as a whole.) The system then is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, where it is always changing but where its structure is yet stable. (By giving the peripheral water a vaulting toroidal flow.) 1.4 A new perspective This is a perspective that is very similar to that of Viktor Schauberger's way of reasoning. He early observed that untouched watercourses had a kind of structural stability. From those observations he suggested methods for river regulation =97 based on t= he perspective of giving water impulses for self-organization to take place. By using suitable guide vanes and by taking into account the effect of the surrounding vegetation on wate= r flow and temperature, he could make a watercourse self-organize into a stable river bed. This way of regulating rivers and watercourses differs from the traditional ways, which tries to steer the flow and which disregards the 'eco-system' that the flowing water and its interaction with the river bed and vegetation makes up =97 with floods and bank erosion as the natural result. Schauberger e.g. noted that the sediment transport capacity of the flow affected sand and bank development, which affected vegetation, which in turn affected the flow image of the water, through among other things the vegetation's cooling effect. The system bites itself in the tail, as it were. A problem has been to interpret the language of Schauberger, as it was more that of a naturalist than of a hydrologist. He more looked at the wholeness of the system, than to its detailed composition, and focused on its flow image, without knowing or modelling the underlying mechanisms. Such a perspective does not look for as detailed a model as possible, but for the simplest model that has the same kind of fundamental properties as the system. It is a perspective that is close to that of modern chaos science. It has shown that disparate and seemingly complex behaviours often can be captured by (ridiculously) simple models5. This is due to the fact that dynamical behaviours at e.g. phase transitions are universal, and appears in a wide range of systems [14, 43]. This is the perspective we will bring with us, as we in this report reinterpret and reexamine parts of the Stuttgart experiments and some of the possible applications. W= e will replicate some of these experiments, and from this try to evolve usefu= l models, which can help to bridge the perspective of Viktor Schauberger with that of the modern natural sciences. This leads naturally to some of the main applications =97 water treatment and restoration of watercourses. We will take a closer look at these in this report. (5) Consider by contrast the complexity of a traditional approach at modelling a highly non-linear system such as free surface flow with an air funnel. hope this helped ------=_Part_58011_22214600.1173899028831 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 14/03/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:

Hi Esa,

 

Thanks for the excellent links.&nb= sp; You seem to have spent a lot of time investigating Schauberger's work. 

 

Some of the technological applicat= ions being purveyed by the Schauberger family first appeared to me as charlatan = in nature.  The seemingly static vortex coils, for example, are described= as "energizing," "living," and "resonating."  In the classical scientific sense of these terms, such claims are hogwash.


the first thing to realize about  what PKS have= available in their shop is that these are not items that viktor schauberge= r or walter schauberger developed.  as far as i can see, there is not = a single  viktor-schauberger-created original item for sale, or a re-p= roduction thereof. none of his suggestions on air-conditioning, water-purif= ication (mountain-spring-quality-water) devices, or others for energy produ= ction are being manufactured right now - they are hardly even understood, o= r even replicated to a simple degree. there are a few people such as Klaus = Rauber (=20 http://www.implosion-ev.de ) and= Fritz Watzl, who have, somewhat created a type of a repulsine, but not at = all the device that was prototyped in the 1940s. what PKS have for sale is = a good over-view of all the books available on Schauberger, both in english= and the german languages. also a few DVDs, but by no means all the documen= taries available on Schauberger/Vortices/Implosion. when it comes to docume= ntaries and books, they are mostly beginner introductions,=20 i.e., this is what he did, this is when he did it, and now its up to you yo= u and you to do research&development  in order to actually have a = device, or anything close to what he was suggesting.

the three item= s on=20 http://www.pks.or.at/dr= inkingwater.html , from what i can see, are developed by a swiss compan= y (first one), Klaus Rauber (the hyperbolic copper cone for water-oxygenati= on/energization), and Klaus Rauber & Emil Schreiber (the swirly pipes) = . the swirly pipes are the closest to what Viktor Schauberger did, as witne= ssed by the P=F6pel Report that was conducted in the University of Stuttgar= t in 1952, by Prof. Franz P=F6pel. this seems to be the most interesting fo= r, erm, people coming at this from a university/math/physics angle.

the P=F6pel Report has been released as an appendix to a book calle= d Energy Evolution, by Callum Coats. here are some aspects of the P=F6pel R= eport:

" Concerning the Preliminary Investigatio= n of Helicoid pipes with Various Shapes of Pipes wall

The Multiple In-winding, C= onvoluting Flow Processes

Influence of the Form & Material of= Pipes on=20 Development of In-winding Flow Processes

Structural Change in Water as Consequence of Multiple In-winding Flowing M= otion=20

= The Prevention of Encrustation"

the Institute of Ecological Techn= ology (=20 www.iet-community.org ) have h= owever done their own experiments and testing as regards to the P=F6pel Rep= ort, and have published some of their results in  the iet-commu= nity report#1. ive, below, pasted some of the material in the report - in c= ase there is interest.

the main thing of interest for those who wish to look at the = P=F6pel report is the report of "negative friction" - i.e. that t= he pipes, through which the water flowed, were shaped in such a way as to a= ctually accelerate the flow of water, and to negate friction. i suppose any= one really interested, and into their german language, could easily find th= e P=F6pel Report via University of Stuttgart - and see what they think of i= t.=20

It may tu= rn out that Schauberger's work is far more related to the Aether Physics Model than I had originally believed.  If there are any English speaking persons directly affiliat= ed with PKS who would like to communicate with me on this, I would gladly work with them.

J=F6rg Schauberge= r can be contacted via <schaube= rger@pks.or.at>, if that is of any help. since lately ive been comin= g across people from universities etc who seem to be interested in the math= aspect of all this, it would be great to get the Radlberger book on Walter= Schauberger's hyperbolic cone geometry/math translated into the englis= h language - if it contains the mathematical key  to what Viktor was (= somewhat) achieving with the limited understanding the engineers had back t= hen..=20

also, Brian Desborough does mention in his book "Blueprint for= a Better World" his firm opinion that whatever Schauberger, Keely and= Tesla were working on, meshes in with his and Lord Kelvin's "Atom= ic Vortex Theory". it seemed to hint at a dynamic ether, so maybe you&= #39;ll find something of interest there. as regards the dynamic ether, i tr= ust you have seen "Energy from the Vacuum part1" released by Chen= iere Media? Bearden does his best to try and explain this vacuum or the voi= d, from which energy can be jacked out of.

Sulis health is run by Alick Bartholomew who wrote a nic= e little beginners guide booklet (The Schauberger Keys), and a book  (= Hidden Nature) on the subject..  and Centre of Implosion Research seem= to have been doing their own related research, altho i didn't really b= enefit that much from their 72 minute audio-tape , ive basically exhausted = the beginners information that there is, and am looking to move on to the a= coustic aspects of it, instead of looping around looking at devices x y and= z  and trying to figure those, or Viktor's way of thinking out.
 what is however interesting is that come august 2007, there will = be a International Workshop on Natural Energies, held in Malm=F6, Sweden, p= artly organized by the IET-community, and that should be an interesting get= -together. also, Klaus Rauber did mention that he has a new website incomin= g, hopefully with more information and in the english language.



*
This report is based on the experiments made by Viktor= Schauberger and Prof. Franz
Popel at the Institute of Technology in Stu= ttgart in 1952 [31]. One of the objectives of
these experiments was to i= nvestigate the possibility of using different kinds of pipes with
rotating water, in order to separate the water phase from a suspension = of hydrophobic
material.
The underlying idea was to use a vessel conn= ected to a straight pipe from below. Water
was injected tangentially and= was allowed to swirl down into the pipe. A vortex would
appear, and particles in the swirling flow would accumulate at the cent= re of the vortex,
where the pressure was the least. With suitably design= ed pipes it was then possible to
separate the hydrophobic material.
The importance of the design of the inlet vessel was also studied. By using= a rectangular
and a round vessel, two rather different cases could be s= tudied. Not only straight pipes
were used, but also conical and spiralli= ng pipes were used. Pipes made of different materials,
such as glass and copper, were studied as well. The experiments were ex= tended into
investigating the frictional losses of different pipes and m= aterials.
The results were rather astonishing. Schauberger and Popel obs= erved that the frictional
resistance decreased the more conical and spiralling the pipes were mad= e. Pipes made of
copper had a lower flow resistance than pipes made of g= lass. The spiralling copper pipe
produced an undulating friction curve a= s the flow was increased. At some flows a negative
friction was observed, as if water seemed to lose contact with the wall= s and fall freely
through the pipe. How to interpret this remains to be = seen.
An underlying principle of the Stuttgart experiments is the rotati= on of water around its
own axis, while it is flowing along a spiralling path with decreasing r= adius. The rotational
velocity increases towards the centre where a sub-= pressure exists.
Let us study a "bath tub vortex" to illustrat= e this. With a slow enough flow, water flows
more or less straight down into the pipe. But at a critical flow a tran= sition takes place, a
bifurcation, and water starts to swirl in a vortex= .
In order to make water organize itself into this kind of flow, we only= have to create the
right conditions, which in turn will generate the spontaneous emergence= of a subpressure
axis. This could be arranged by using a suitable geome= try of the vessels, or by introducing
different kinds of guide vanes, pr= essure sinks etc. (More generally, we have to look at the
system and its interaction with its surroundings as a whole.) The syste= m then is in a state
of dynamic equilibrium, where it is always changing= but where its structure is yet stable.

(By giving the peripheral wa= ter a vaulting toroidal flow.)

1.4 A new perspective
This is a perspective that is very similar= to that of Viktor Schauberger's way of reasoning.
He early observed= that untouched watercourses had a kind of structural stability. From
those observations he suggested methods for river regulation =97 based on t= he perspective
of giving water impulses for self-organization to take pl= ace. By using suitable guide vanes
and by taking into account the effect= of the surrounding vegetation on water flow and
temperature, he could make a watercourse self-organize into a stable ri= ver bed.
This way of regulating rivers and watercourses differs from the= traditional ways, which
tries to steer the flow and which disregards th= e 'eco-system' that the flowing water and its
interaction with the river bed and vegetation makes up =97 with floods = and bank erosion
as the natural result. Schauberger e.g. noted that the = sediment transport capacity of
the flow affected sand and bank developme= nt, which affected vegetation, which in turn
affected the flow image of the water, through among other things the ve= getation's cooling
effect. The system bites itself in the tail, as i= t were.
A problem has been to interpret the language of Schauberger, as = it was more that of a
naturalist than of a hydrologist. He more looked at the wholeness of th= e system, than
to its detailed composition, and focused on its flow imag= e, without knowing or modelling
the underlying mechanisms.
Such a per= spective does not look for as detailed a model as possible, but for the sim= plest
model that has the same kind of fundamental properties as the system. I= t is a perspective
that is close to that of modern chaos science. It has= shown that disparate and seemingly
complex behaviours often can be capt= ured by (ridiculously) simple models5. This is due
to the fact that dynamical behaviours at e.g. phase transitions are uni= versal, and appears
in a wide range of systems [14, 43].
This is the = perspective we will bring with us, as we in this report reinterpret and ree= xamine
parts of the Stuttgart experiments and some of the possible application= s. We
will replicate some of these experiments, and from this try to evo= lve useful models, which
can help to bridge the perspective of Viktor Sc= hauberger with that of the modern natural
sciences. This leads naturally to some of the main applications =97 wat= er treatment and
restoration of watercourses. We will take a closer look= at these in this report.

(5) Consider by contrast the complexity of= a traditional approach at modelling a highly non-linear system
such as free surface flow with an air funnel.


hope this help= ed
------=_Part_58011_22214600.1173899028831-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 12:21:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EJLFc7016404; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:21:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EJLDUC016379; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:21:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:21:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:20:46 -0600 Message-ID: <007101c7666d$e93b8950$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F83EC6.5010607@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdmXpU79QK0Vgi0TOGRMI14eWFrxAACERKg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73776 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > > Err, did you expect we would be giving the book away for free? > Yes, electronically. There are countless sites that freely and gladly allow people place their research. I use Peswiki.com. Err, funny you would say that... http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Aether_Physics_Model > IMHO here's a significant difference between you and I --> > From the beginning of my research I have placed the following statement at the top of my research web page: "Note This project and research requires no funding or payments of any kind. No payment is requested nor has any ever been accepted for this project and research. This researcher has the necessary equipment and money to continue this project and research." > You push your Aether theory, but when the poor scientist goes to your website they discover you are selling a book. Heaven's to mergatroids! Imagine such a diabolical scheme! I have been caught, go ahead and report this heinous crime to the authorities Oh Mighty Crusader of free books. Here is another difference between us, I'm smart enough to write a book and register it with the Library of Congress in order to protect my ideas without having to wait for Nature or Science to accept a theory about the Aether for peer review. Here is another difference; I was requested by a large number of scientists to write a book on the Aether Physics Model, which is why I have already sold well over 300 copies. And here is one more difference between us. My background includes several years as finance manager for 14 different corporations. I happen to know a thing or two about how to make an original $1000 investment perpetuate the production of the books so that I don't have to spend $40 of my own pocket money to send each copy of the hand printed book to whoever is interested. I would have lost what little I own by now if I had followed your advice. >>> May I ask what your APM can do that Quantum Physics cannot? > >> Apparently you can. The real question, based upon your professed dislike >> for Aether theories, is will you listen to the answer? I have spoken >> several times in this thread and other threads on this list about the APM >> predicting the relative strengths of the fundamental forces, predicting >> the 1s orbital electron binding energies, and predicting the distributed >> and reciprocal natures of charges. And this is just a short list. > After asking you far too many times, and you avoiding the question, one has to presume you are not qualified at quantum physics. Let the record show, he asked the question again and ignored the answer again. > I tried by asking you if your theory predicts what QM has successfully predicted. I'll even take another step forward by asking what a scientist could do with your model? Could one use your APM in a computer software simulation? Absolutely, that is what the Aether Physics Model was designed for. The APM is a discrete model of physics, which can provide not only a geometrically based computer simulation, but also a dimensionally based simulation. This is one of our goals for development once the theory gets off the ground with the right crowd and sufficient funding comes in. > That may not interest the physics community as a whole, but it could catch my interest since I write software simulations. How ironic. You ignore the Aether, which is the very basis of the structure you need in order to discretely model quantum physics. You may not have noticed all those graphics in the papers. But those are computer generated images, based upon the Aether Physics Model. Those images represent a two-dimensional surface in a five-dimensional spatial-temporal coordinate system. The reason modern physics cannot properly model quantum structures is because they are stuck in the four-dimensional space-time coordinate systems. The wrong assumption is made that quantum existence must exist in the same apparent coordinates as macro existence. Yet if anybody had given it much thought, the reason why subatomic particles have half spin is because subatomic particles act as time diodes, cutting off part of our experience of reality. By "time diodes" I mean subatomic particles due to quantum frequency the same thing that electrical diodes do to AC current. Electrical diodes cause AC current to appear as pulsed DC. Subatomic particles have the same effect, but since we are made of subatomic particles (as is all our test equipment), we perceive the illusion of continuous linear time. As I have pointed out many times, the APM has started off only as a theory of quantum structure. Only recently have I made progress into quantum mechanics using a completely new approach, and which allows for the prediction of all the 1s orbital electron binding energies. With a little more research, this equation should easily predict all the electron binding energies. We have also made progress on a nuclear binding energy equation and hope to develop a similar atomic spectra equation for predicting all the spectra of all the isotopes and their ions. With these combined equations, we should be able to engineer molecules to our exact specifications. But I can't do all this work by myself with zero dollars personal income, a bad leg, and many other limitations I'm currently experiencing. What I need is to network with other researchers who are interested in actually solving the mysteries of the Universe, rather than making the mysteries more mysterious with weird ideas like wave/particle duality, probability functions, and force particles. I need to tap the vast resources of various national labs and Universities and harness the combined brain power and skills of numerous people. It just isn't possible for me to finish this work by myself in this lifetime. Contrary to your libelous smear campaign about charging for books, I never took a single penny of the book sales for myself. All the funds from the book sales go into the non-profit organization for the purpose of promoting the Aether Physics Model. So far, I have had to rely on the donations of friends and family to keep my personal life in motion, especially after I suffered a compound fracture of my lower left leg and ankle, and compressed my spine two years ago. The only way I could sink lower into poverty at this point is to abandon my dilapidated old house and live on the streets. Is that what you think I should do to match your level chivalry? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 12:27:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EJRJdQ019160; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:27:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EJRIsv019140; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:27:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:27:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Jwk4L49mm5Or4u4isgmBXfsN6dAvxuEONe4lRjlkcNbFibg/F/45/iSUKx4Vmq3csBDTGPXjO/h4WtSgDTAB8SEk88pxusFrkRRbR1zPn37dG/ex0xq6fBF/x9XrEVBSm7luRPfkaHC+FuaHnpc1Y9aLgr373lAxqBSMHnUutfk= ; X-YMail-OSG: riv2mOsVM1nUGtDOiLc1csCkblLKb.ChaBMQPjpywMHHt4EAHv.XkBGW9a7gI2IfSQDqxvhE2BvgrQsD_1M98zSCOHeEivOS6.Wp34zo_nkTSP.I.6j7MA-- Message-ID: <45F84C93.50208@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:27:15 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73777 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Coming: the Green-SUV ? Status: O X-Status: http://dhglobalentllc.com/projects/pmrm/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 12:48:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EJmMBq019243; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:48:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EJmJXP019228; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:48:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:48:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:47:28 -0600 Message-ID: <007501c76671$b2a5b3d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0076_01C7663F.680B43D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703141203g641ee364k94f8f0cc6f930a4d@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdmbECeuP1BUxx0RW2fipIIPo0ZpgAAyVMA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73778 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C7663F.680B43D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Esa, =20 > the main thing of interest for those who wish to look at the P=F6pel = report is the report of "negative friction" - i.e. that the pipes, through = which the water flowed, were shaped in such a way as to actually accelerate = the flow of water, and to negate friction.=20 =20 Yes, that is interesting. =20 > *=85 > The spiralling copper pipe produced an undulating friction curve as the flow was increased. At some flows a negative=20 friction was observed, as if water seemed to lose contact with the walls = and fall freely through the pipe. How to interpret this remains to be seen. =20 This is a particularly important observation for me. I have also noted = an undulating resonance when winding helical and flat spiral secondary = coils for high voltage experiments. To be safe, I would always wind the coil = with a longer piece of wire than needed. Then I would measure the resonance = of the coil to see where it was with regard to my target. I found that by cutting off a specific length of wire did not necessarily result in a corresponding increase in frequency. Sometimes the frequency of the = coil would actually increase as wire was cut off. The increase and decrease = of frequency would undulate even though the wire length was shortened = linearly. =20 It would not surprise me at all if there were a similar effect occurring = in water flow. =20 > hope this helped =20 Yes, I have found all your information helpful. Thank you. =20 Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C7663F.680B43D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Esa,

 

> the main thing = of interest for those who wish to look at the P=F6pel report is the report = of "negative friction" - i.e. that the pipes, through which the = water flowed, were shaped in such a way as to actually accelerate the flow of = water, and to negate friction.

 

Yes, that is = interesting.

 

> *…
> The = spiralling copper pipe
produced an undulating friction curve as the flow was increased. At some = flows a negative
friction was observed, as if water seemed to lose contact with the walls = and fall freely
through the pipe. How to interpret this remains to be seen.

 

=

This is a particularly important observation for me.=A0 I have also noted an undulating resonance when = winding helical and flat spiral secondary coils for high voltage experiments.=A0 = To be safe, I would always wind the coil with a longer piece of wire than = needed.=A0 Then I would measure the resonance of the coil to see where it was with = regard to my target.=A0 I found that by cutting off a specific length of wire = did not necessarily result in a corresponding increase in frequency.=A0 = Sometimes the frequency of the coil would actually increase as wire was cut off.=A0 = The increase and decrease of frequency would undulate even though the wire length was shortened linearly.

 

=

It would not surprise me at all if = there were a similar effect occurring in water = flow.

 

=

> hope this = helped

 

=

Yes, I have found all your = information helpful.=A0 Thank you.

 

=

Dave

------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C7663F.680B43D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 13:21:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EKL5r9009578; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:21:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EKL4px009547; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:21:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:21:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ahf/OW/iUZZIFIUNuwCj+R+5yhIXYG9w7ptpAvLOAiZQvBxHpWkP5FPi6un58g2/GwsSzGaa2N1qRSbci5BKbepx/Bk+0puibM/EYhwJGgF+ZuBbBILbd9mMVRaXLfnJ2w+dd+JEF9j7IQlyX5CIye1+XTOQC0xyXy4QCl76ED8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nw1EUL1fY4In9RuwBMA6kwyXuBNXwK1pp+5jeki9XK/pmMHxHyQx2ElLZ+M8orkhcAnQSOWnyw7b7rrIkzZ/pZe8SgViskwTMrjpWflXWxWeBqJrJkARUidBQvvj3zWTLw0XLpdf2ecSrV9Nrwvc7plPyw9Aznj1/46ADQupoRE= Message-ID: <45F86737.9020400@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:20:55 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <007101c7666d$e93b8950$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <007101c7666d$e93b8950$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73779 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In yet another attempt to close this discussion I'll try and keep my comments to a minimum. David Thomson wrote: > Hi Paul, > >>> Err, did you expect we would be giving the book away for free? > >> Yes, electronically. There are countless sites that freely and gladly > allow people place their research. I use Peswiki.com. > > Err, funny you would say that... > http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Aether_Physics_Model I wish you would stop playing games with people. That 1 & half wiki page is nothing. I for example offer all my research, free of charge. >> IMHO here's a significant difference between you and I --> > >> From the beginning of my research I have placed the following statement at > the top of my research web page: > "Note This project and research requires no funding or payments of any kind. > > No payment is requested nor has any ever been accepted for this project and > research. This researcher has the necessary equipment and money to continue > this project and research." > >> You push your Aether theory, but when the poor scientist goes to your > website they discover you are selling a book. > > Heaven's to mergatroids! Imagine such a diabolical scheme! I have been > caught, go ahead and report this heinous crime to the authorities Oh Mighty > Crusader of free books. > Here is another difference between us, I'm smart enough to write a book and > register it with the Library of Congress in order to protect my ideas > without having to wait for Nature or Science to accept a theory about the > Aether for peer review. > Here is another difference; I was requested by a large number of scientists > to write a book on the Aether Physics Model, which is why I have already > sold well over 300 copies. Indeed, you and I are very different. I would freely give all the research away. I seriously doubt "large number" of scientists requested you charge them money for a book. And it seems obvious all those usenet posts begging scientists to give "David Thomson" a Nobel Prize was merely you masquerading under a yahoo addresses. Who in their right mind would plea with the physicist community to give Dave Thomson a Nobel Prize?!?! People don't even post such ridiculous pleas for Ed Witten. IMHO, if true, and we all know it is, then that discloses a very sick side to your personality. http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=David+Thomson+nobel&qt_s=Search >>>> May I ask what your APM can do that Quantum Physics cannot? > > >>> Apparently you can. The real question, based upon your professed dislike >>> for Aether theories, is will you listen to the answer? I have spoken >>> several times in this thread and other threads on this list about the APM >>> predicting the relative strengths of the fundamental forces, predicting >>> the 1s orbital electron binding energies, and predicting the distributed >>> and reciprocal natures of charges. And this is just a short list. > >> After asking you far too many times, and you avoiding the question, one > has to presume you are not qualified at quantum physics. > > Let the record show, he asked the question again and ignored the answer > again. Please do not lie to Vo. Where did you tell us you are or are not qualified in the field at Quantum physics. >> I tried by asking you if your theory predicts what QM has successfully > predicted. I'll even take another step forward by asking what a scientist > could do with your model? Could one use your APM in a computer software > simulation? > > Absolutely, that is what the Aether Physics Model was designed for. The APM > is a discrete model of physics, which can provide not only a geometrically > based computer simulation, but also a dimensionally based simulation. This > is one of our goals for development once the theory gets off the ground with > the right crowd and sufficient funding comes in. > >> That may not interest the physics community as a whole, but it could catch > my interest since I write software simulations. > > How ironic. You ignore the Aether, which is the very basis of the structure > you need in order to discretely model quantum physics. According to who? You? > You may not have noticed all those graphics in > the papers. But those are computer generated > images, based upon the Aether Physics Model. Then the obvious question is were the images created using a graphics program or by writing custom software? I am referring to writing software written in a computer language such as C++, not a person using a graphics program. The difference between writing software and using a program is like comparing QM to basket weaving. > Those images represent a two-dimensional surface in a five-dimensional > spatial-temporal coordinate system. The reason modern physics cannot > properly model quantum structures is because they are stuck in the > four-dimensional space-time coordinate systems. Could you please explain the double slit experiment in 3-dimensional physics. You seem to avoid real problems such as the double slit experiment, but this could very well disprove your theory, right? ... and put and end your book sales, right? Just asking real questions Dave. > As I have pointed out many times, the APM has started off only as a theory > of quantum structure. Only recently have I made progress into quantum > mechanics using a completely new approach, You refuse to answer my questions as to how qualified you are in the field of quantum physics. Seems obvious you are not qualified. I don't know why you are so evasive on so many key questions *if* you are a sincere person. > But I can't do all this work by myself with zero dollars personal income, a > bad leg, and many other limitations I'm currently experiencing. What I need > is to network with other researchers who are interested in actually solving > the mysteries of the Universe You want people to help, but first you want their money, huh? > Contrary to your libelous smear campaign about charging for books, I never > took a single penny of the book sales for myself. All the funds from the > book sales go into the non-profit organization for the purpose of promoting > the Aether Physics Model. We have no proof of that, and besides that's merely a business move, to use profits to make more money. > So far, I have had to rely on the donations of > friends and family to keep my personal life in motion, especially after I > suffered a compound fracture of my lower left leg and ankle, and compressed > my spine two years ago. The only way I could sink lower into poverty at > this point is to abandon my dilapidated old house and live on the streets. > Is that what you think I should do to match your level chivalry? In a heart beat I would freely publish all the work!!! BTW, I know researchers who are also financially broke, on the verge of being homeless, but they don't blab it out publicly over the Internet. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 14:36:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2ELaGuu025357; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:36:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ELaE7o025350; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:36:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:36:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: MIB persuasions Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:35:49 -0600 Message-ID: <009501c76680$c55caa60$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45F86737.9020400@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: Acdmdui5v6ii/hjxRDuLlJifE7ez5gABxZbA Resent-Message-ID: <1srUb.A.CMG.OrG-FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73780 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, > I for example offer all my research, free of charge. I'm sure there is a good reason for it and it isn't because of your magnanimous personality. > And it seems obvious all those usenet posts begging > scientists to give "David Thomson" a Nobel Prize was merely you > masquerading under a yahoo addresses. Who in their right mind would plea > with the physicist community to give Dave Thomson a Nobel Prize?!?! > People don't even post such ridiculous pleas for Ed Witten. IMHO, if > true, and we all know it is, then that discloses a very sick side to your > personality. > http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=David+Thomson+nobel&qt_s=Search Just keep showing us the stuff you are made of Paul. You do a greater job of it than I could. Once you do enough reading about the person who wrote that, you'll find his name is Lee and he's either from Japan or The Philippines. He's one of several intelligent, open-minded seekers of the truth out there who have taken the time to read and understand the Aether Physics Model. You seem surprised that there are people who have read, understood, and support the Aether Physics Model. How else do you think I got invited to Imperial College in London to give a talk at the 2006 PIRT conference last fall? >> You may not have noticed all those graphics in >> the papers. But those are computer generated >> images, based upon the Aether Physics Model. > Then the obvious question is were the images created using a graphics > program or by writing custom software? I am referring to writing software > written in a computer language such as C++, not a person using a graphics > program. How about a real science program, like MathCAD 11? > The difference between writing software and using a program is like > comparing QM to basket weaving. Hmmm, okay. And I have just read the rest of your tirade. I have no comment and only hope others on the list have not stopped reading this thread. I think it is quite revealing. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 15:26:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EMQEmX024922; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:26:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EMQCkc024881; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:26:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:26:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ez5+OQO9F/zdMorw8/zv4IuhoynF5X+ateHrlW2T9s3GFkUtg1oGeZQyJCQQSjrr6n0VvVnA4yo037Dpvigobh5cVHyEUloCUV9AaY3MODtOJ/7tcKBfggPLWq67qTuj0MXxKK1f5L0U8FkZV25SgMfORrhP9uDlDSH8Xnj0Uic= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MJ6NnKtZzrDSPH6Do1VjRPBS8bqJmS+2AXkzEe8FLhLmSZ+PMwMFDQ5tb2+aDLbRcFhYvlwwW+QervU6QLeTuxXaB/9Z55OabtmQc94unCwdCp+Zvlx/hDwZq/R9Ng2y9yZsjr1lOQzbWWS8vB53CDCva8rNAIdCVhPhwPFGljg= Message-ID: <45F8848D.5060408@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:26:05 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: MIB persuasions References: <009501c76680$c55caa60$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <009501c76680$c55caa60$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73781 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=David+Thomson+nobel&qt_s=Search > > Just keep showing us the stuff you are made of Paul. I make a real effort to back up as many statements as possible, as in my above example I provided the link. Take your above statement. You simply make a claim, as usual. Just keeping it real Dave. > You do a greater job > of it than I could. Once you do enough reading about the person who wrote > that, you'll find his name is Lee and he's either from Japan or The > Philippines. He's one of several intelligent, open-minded seekers of the > truth out there who have taken the time to read and understand the Aether > Physics Model. You seem surprised that there are people who have read, > understood, and support the Aether Physics Model. How else do you think I > got invited to Imperial College in London to give a talk at the 2006 PIRT > conference last fall? Lee from Japan or Philippines huh? That's funny since his email is "caltechxtremephysics@yahoo.com" So Lee from Caltech who lives in Japan or Philippines decided to write a long email to the physics usenet community because he thought David Thomson needed a Nobel Prize? >>> You may not have noticed all those graphics in >>> the papers. But those are computer generated >>> images, based upon the Aether Physics Model. > >> Then the obvious question is were the images created using a graphics >> program or by writing custom software? I am referring to writing software > >> written in a computer language such as C++, not a person using a graphics >> program. > > How about a real science program, like MathCAD 11? That's fine as far as creating a static image, but you cannot compare MathCAD to C++. You are aware MathCAD was written in a lower level language, quite possibly C++? Most software engineers do *not* write simulation software in MathCAD because --> 1. You are limited in what you can do in MathCAD relative to low level languages such as C++. 2. Even if you could create a simple simulation program in MathCAD, the C++ program has far higher potential of being magnitudes faster. >> The difference between writing software and using a program is like >> comparing QM to basket weaving. > > Hmmm, okay. And I have just read the rest of your tirade. I have no > comment and only hope others on the list have not stopped reading this > thread. I think it is quite revealing. > I have to once again ask for you to elaborate and show some proof. While you're at it, why don't you show your proof when you wrote, "I deleted the psychotic ramblings." Care to be a little coherent and back up your statement in quoting what you believe to be "psychotic ramblings?" This is indeed wasting too much time. I have research to conduct, and you have books to sell. Enjoy capitalizing on the theoretical physics community. Seriously, shame on you! Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 15:36:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2EMZw7M016544; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:35:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2EMZsRQ016523; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:35:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:35:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Lt1a84tCA3QBkMBlXaTdDSm2ku5yEeC6Vk8sq8JhrFX5PcRE7UFS6cyN5Jjdn5Ozwo9en1OsceONY2JZfpFf6CqgcLkiemuZm1lFyPm+wCe+QFnq+HNI3ivG+b7iLG6exnpEdQKopFl20AEjCEMI3qNRYhf+T8ixKEdxtL0Qmpo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=RAwYYoD0Uh8tGJficfKdQ3qus/Jd+/jVbrPmOXkblzxvBcsw5amaVYEyWSs8kFRJAzFuO1Hpdw13vHQmQz6xZrHEgKCtJwiPsH+P1YtGjBDM8kfEAVQ4JD/zG/iMA8i5+I6019eOzB9siIVrAEg/vB8yiamzCyarM7swfDANWM0= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:35:48 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of "Appeal to Authority" fallacy In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070314111539.0373c838@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_64730_27423454.1173911748766" References: <18960829.1173617455494.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312110123.03626ab8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070312130654.037a2b70@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313102845.036e41f0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313120123.03793de0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070314111539.0373c838@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73782 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_64730_27423454.1173911748766 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/15/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > >Ahuh, and yet no details are ever availible. > > That is incorrect. NIST has published thousands of pages of data. > Please do not dispute matters of fact. > > > >I'm not questioning if when a floor is pulled if further floors > >worth of destruction will occur, obviously it will. > >The question is in a building such as the twin towers or other tall > >conventional buildings if a floor near the top is pulled if the > >entire thing will collapse at near freefall speeds. > > All other buildings destroyed by this method, on purpose or by > accident, have fallen at freefall speeds. Show me the report. >I would expect in the case of the WTC that a lot of it would > >collapse, but I would think it might stop 2/3rds of the way down . . . > > You have that backward. When the floor near the top has enough energy > to break the next one down, that adds one floor to the mass of > falling material, increasing the total mass that strikes the next > floor down. After ten floors collapse you have 10 floors worth of > additional mass falling down. But falling from what height? Each new floor falls a total of one floor and it must break the walls in doing so before it has to help take out the next floor, overall each floor should slow the descent. Free fall speeds means 0 resistance, and yet no one can deny the work done. You are also ignoring the far better evidence, such as explosions heard and caught on tape, squibs clearly visible and undeniable, the glass broken on the ground floor when the firemen arrived, and indeed seismographs recorded events before the first plane hit which agrees with what those in the buildings report of bombs in the basement. People thrown about and burnt by explosions. Tiny pieces of bone found on roofs of distant buildings, how can such tiny pieces of bone be flung so far by a collapses under gravity? You are ignoring building number 7 where squibs are plainly visible before the building collapses, and the BBC talk about it's demise with it standing in the background 22 minutes before hand, and this is only some of the building related evidence of explosions. This is not quite true, because some of > the material falls out the sides and straight down, but most of it > joins the total mass of falling material, and adds to the force of > the reaction. It's not weight that is important, it is the KE and there is no way it can fall at freefall speed as it needs to constantly do work to destroy the floors below, new floors being added to the falling mass start out with no KE. Show me a video or at least a report of a tall building with the top 3rd falling through the rest of the building at freefall speeds without the building being otherwise weakened Two-thirds down you have *far* greater force striking > each additional floor, and much greater damage. If anything, it > should go faster. > > > >, and at the very least to occur far more slowly than freefall > >speeds which means that the building offered 0 resistance which is > >at odds with the conservation of energy. > > As Stephen A. Lawrence already pointed out on this forum, the > breaking reaction occurs at the speed of sound. A floor either breaks > or it does not break within a fraction of a second. The energy > absorbed by the breaking is absorbed in that fraction of a second and > the reaction continues nearly as quickly as it would in free fall. Energy is absorbed, the KE of the upper portion of the building is absorbed as it impacts with the floors below as you stated, and yet it can't still have the same KE it would have had if it had indeed been in freefall, and yet somehow it does. You can see from the 9/11 photos -- and from the photos of other > buildings deliberately destroyed by this method -- that the speed is > a little slower than free fall. Material thrown out the side hits the > ground a little sooner than the falling bulk of the building. > > - Jed > > ------=_Part_64730_27423454.1173911748766 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 3/15/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

>Ahuh, and yet no details are ever availible.

That is incorrect. NIST has published thousands of pages of data.
Please do not dispute matters of fact.


>I'm not questioning if when a floor is pulled if further floors
>worth of destruction will occur, obviously it will.
>The question is in a building such as the twin towers or other tall
>conventional buildings if a floor near the top is pulled if the
>entire thing will collapse at near freefall speeds.

All other buildings destroyed by this method, on purpose or by
accident, have fallen at freefall speeds.

Show me the report.

>I would expect in the case of the WTC that a lot of it would
>collapse, but I would think it might stop 2/3rds of the way down . . .

You have that backward. When the floor near the top has enough energy
to break the next one down, that adds one floor to the mass of
falling material, increasing the total mass that strikes the next
floor down. After ten floors collapse you have 10 floors worth of
additional mass falling down.

But falling from what height? Each new floor falls a total of one floor and it must break the walls in doing so before it has to help take out the next floor, overall each floor should slow the descent.

Free fall speeds means 0 resistance, and yet no one can deny the work done.

You are also ignoring the far better evidence, such as explosions heard and caught on tape, squibs clearly visible and undeniable, the glass broken on the ground floor when the firemen arrived, and indeed seismographs recorded events before the first plane hit which agrees with what those in the buildings report of bombs in the basement.
People thrown about and burnt by explosions.
Tiny pieces of bone found on roofs of distant buildings, how can such tiny pieces of bone be flung so far by a collapses under gravity?

You are ignoring building number 7 where squibs are plainly visible before the building collapses, and the BBC talk about it's demise with it standing in the background 22 minutes before hand, and this is only some of the building related evidence of explosions.

This is not quite true, because some of
the material falls out the sides and straight down, but most of it
joins the total mass of falling material, and adds to the force of
the reaction.

It's not weight that is important, it is the KE and there is no way it can fall at freefall speed as it needs to constantly do work to destroy the floors below, new floors being added to the falling mass start out with no KE.

Show me a video or at least a report of a tall building with the top 3rd falling through the rest of the building at freefall speeds without the building being otherwise weakened

Two-thirds down you have *far* greater force striking
each additional floor, and much greater damage. If anything, it
should go faster.


>, and at the very least to occur far more slowly than freefall
>speeds which means that the building offered 0 resistance which is
>at odds with the conservation of energy.

As Stephen A. Lawrence already pointed out on this forum, the
breaking reaction occurs at the speed of sound. A floor either breaks
or it does not break within a fraction of a second. The energy
absorbed by the breaking is absorbed in that fraction of a second and
the reaction continues nearly as quickly as it would in free fall.

Energy is absorbed, the  KE of the upper portion of the building is absorbed as it impacts with the floors below as you stated, and yet it can't still have the same KE it would have had if it had indeed been in freefall, and yet somehow it does.

You can see from the 9/11 photos -- and from the photos of other
buildings deliberately destroyed by this method -- that the speed is
a little slower than free fall. Material thrown out the side hits the
ground a little sooner than the falling bulk of the building.

- Jed


------=_Part_64730_27423454.1173911748766-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 18:02:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F12BFG019690; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:02:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F128VA019672; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:02:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:02:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c7669d$8e032d60$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:02:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <5n-qND.A.UzE.QsJ-FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73783 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zac wrote.. >Here are some studies dealing with O6, from our fancy library: http://www.newalexandria.org/images/O6_studies.zip >Perhaps Richard, or someone else in Dime Box Texas, will have time to pull out something useful from them. I only searched Elsevier briefly, there are more extensive chem databases Thanks Zac, This paper resulted from a research grant by the Air Force and a China University and relates to SO2 high altitude air quality particulates involving S6 and inversely to O6. Their work is centered on air pollution whereas our work is in disinfection of water using mixed oxidants including O3. Fortunately, Dime Box Texas lost out some years ago to College Station Texas ( Texas A&M) so seldom is heard a discouraging word except for the occasional broken mirror in the saloon when some drunk starts discussing politics. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 18:25:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F1P2wn006332; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:25:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F1P0D1006315; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:25:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:25:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c766a0$bfd97ad0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:24:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C76676.D6B41A50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73784 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C76676.D6B41A50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0026_01C76676.D6B41A50" ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C76676.D6B41A50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Howdy Eso and David, More links on some of the implosion theme. http://www.ultralightamerica.com/edav.htm http://www.evert.de/indefte.htm=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C76676.D6B41A50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
 
Howdy Eso and David,
 
More links on some of the implosion theme.
 
http://www.ultralighta= merica.com/edav.htm

http://www.evert.de/indefte.htm<= /A>=20

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C76676.D6B41A50-- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C76676.D6B41A50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002401c766a0$bf871510$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C76676.D6B41A50-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 18:40:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F1du76011161; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:39:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F1dn1i011105; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:39:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:39:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ZWPQnqLBnFXMgGM7DizcFDfw0LR83rRnccux6rMauFtvzxryCjxv1/DvMseIpBed; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <21920630.1173922788722.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:39:48 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Definition of Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c1d91dd941247a179d6e6adaf24055d1831a49835436c9336350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73785 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry writes: >> All other buildings destroyed by this method, on purpose or by >> accident, have fallen at freefall speeds. > > >Show me the report. See any video or documentary from Controlled Demolition. >> floor down. After ten floors collapse you have 10 floors worth of >> additional mass falling down. > > >But falling from what height? The height is not a factor. If the force is strong enough to break the floor, it happens in fraction of second. It is slowed down only slightly. If the force is not strong enough, the reaction stops instantly. Buildings never collapse in slow motion. > Each new floor falls a total of one floor and >it must break the walls in doing so before it has to help take out the next >floor, overall each floor should slow the descent. Yes, but only a tiny bit. This is clearly visible in the collapse of the Twin Towers, as I said. You can see material falling out the side in 100% freefall that hits the ground first. >Free fall speeds means 0 resistance, and yet no one can deny the work done. I and others here have said repeatedly that it was a little slower than free fall. Anyone can see that at a glance. >You are also ignoring the far better evidence, such as explosions heard and >caught on tape, squibs clearly visible and undeniable, the glass broken on . . . This is all a bunch of crap, on par with the "evidence" that proves cold fusion does not exist. Facts are facts, physics are physics, and the events surrounding the collapse of the towers are well understood. There is no doubt whatever about what happened, and no possible way it could have happened the way you imagine. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 19:21:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F2L2ht026856; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:21:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F2L15U026842; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:21:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:21:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:21:00 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.14 (On: webmail.textdrivehosting.com) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000601c7669d$8e032d60$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "Zachary Jones" Bounce-To: "Zachary Jones" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2F2L0Qg026822 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73786 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard, In case you missed it, the one paper dealt with aspects of O6 structure and formation that seemed somewhat independent of environment. Admittedly, the papers are tiny pieces of the bigger puzzle... Have you ever talked with any of the TExas A&M boy working on NASA's vortex phase separator? thanks for the EDAV link, it's cute. Zak On 3/15/2007, "R.C.Macaulay" wrote: > >Zac wrote.. > >>Here are some studies dealing with O6, from our fancy >library: > >http://www.newalexandria.org/images/O6_studies.zip > >>Perhaps Richard, or someone else in Dime Box Texas, will have time to >pull out something useful from them. I only searched Elsevier briefly, >there are more extensive chem databases > > >Thanks Zac, > This paper resulted from a research grant by the Air Force and a China >University and relates to SO2 high altitude air quality particulates >involving S6 and inversely to O6. Their work is centered on air pollution >whereas our work is in disinfection of water using mixed oxidants including >O3. > Fortunately, Dime Box Texas lost out some years ago to College Station >Texas ( Texas A&M) so seldom is heard a discouraging word except for the >occasional broken mirror in the saloon when some drunk starts discussing >politics. > >Richard > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 14 20:17:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F3GvSW015327; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:16:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F3GtCJ015304; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:16:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:16:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c766b0$6247fa30$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:16:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73788 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zac Wrote.. >Have you ever talked with any of the TExas A&M boy working on NASA's vortex phase separator? No I have not. Tell me something about it or the people involved. >thanks for the EDAV link, it's cute. Kim's EDAV has some ideas.. not to be discounted.. he has some people that he claims has a working Implosion device.. he's been working on it long enough but health has sidetracked him. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 00:07:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F77XpP032384; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:07:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F77V3r032368; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:07:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:07:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:07:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta08sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:07:27 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73790 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Status: O X-Status: Hi, Does anyone know of a SIMS analysis run on either pure deuterium or a = metal deuteride, where *only* the deuteride went in, but some Hydrogen came = out? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 00:11:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F7B8wI001342; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:11:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F7B6g2001309; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:11:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:11:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:10:42 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <40slcC.A.WU.JGP-FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73791 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:07:07 = +1100: Hi, [snip] >Hi, > >Does anyone know of a SIMS analysis run on either pure deuterium or a = metal >deuteride, where *only* the deuteride went in, but some Hydrogen came = out? [snip] I meant "but some protium came out". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 01:23:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F8NCnp027952; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:23:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F8N9Xs027938; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:23:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:23:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:22:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73792 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Robin, I know of no such analysis but I am intrigued by your question > SIMS analysis run on either pure deuterium=20 In which form ? Can one run a SIMS analysis on a gas? > where *only* the deuteride went in, but some H (1H) came out? You mean HD goes into the metal and H comes out? Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:07:07 = +1100: Hi, [snip] >Hi, > >Does anyone know of a SIMS analysis run on either pure deuterium or a = metal >deuteride, where *only* the deuteride went in, but some Hydrogen came = out? [snip] I meant "but some protium came out". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 03:17:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FAHiiq027228; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:17:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FAHf2T027213; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:17:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:17:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:17:41 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.14 (On: webmail.textdrivehosting.com) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001601c766b0$6247fa30$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "Zachary Jones" Bounce-To: "Zachary Jones" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73794 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/15/2007, "R.C.Macaulay" wrote: >Zachary Wrote.. > >>Have you ever talked with any of the TExas A&M boys working on NASA's >vortex phase separator? > >No I have not. Tell me something about it or the people involved. > > The project director is Fred Best, who is a nuclear engineer with a focus in multi-phase flows. http://nuclear.tamu.edu/home/people/faculty/best/index.php Their work is with a a cylinder that injects a moist vapor / liquid froma tangent and sucks it out a port in the botom-center of the cylinder. A vortex flow forms in the process and they study it to understand phase transport effects (how stuff separates) in Zero-G. The system particularly focuses on liquid / gas separations. It system is on track for integration into NASA's "Immobilized Microbe Microgravity Water Processing System" (IMMWPS), for sustained living in space. It only works in microgravity Most of their work was done aboard parabolic trajectory planes. The work was done through his Interphase Transport Phenomena Laboratory http://itp.tamu.edu/ The only papers put out are from the ITP lab manager, Cable Kurwitz. I get the impression that the work they did was 'frozen' so it could enter NASA's pipeline to get flown. I've never spoken with Best or Kurwitz, though, so I can't comment on whether they've stalled recently, or are just in a holding pattern. Best also launched the Center for Space Power, which does a bunch of corporate stuff http://engineer.tamu.edu/tees/csp/index.html If I had to wager somewhere, I'd say Best's recent time in this area has been spent working with industry - even beyond the CSP >>thanks for the EDAV link, it's cute. > >Kim's EDAV has some ideas.. not to be discounted.. he has some people that >he claims has a working Implosion device.. he's been working on it long >enough but health has sidetracked him. > Hopefully he'll make more strides. What kind of 'implosion device'?=20 That has been used to name a range of mechanisms. Zak From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 03:24:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F9OnjV023491; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:24:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F9OlhQ023480; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:24:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:24:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:24:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73793 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) Status: RO X-Status: I am not pressing you for an answer Ed, but I Googled for your book soon = to be published you advertised here the other day: "The Science of Low = Energy Nuclear Reaction" and found its home page here: http://www.worldscibooks.com/physics/6425.html=20 It says "Pub. date: Scheduled Fall 2007", hopefully it is not too late = to correct it for such errors? Or have you had it proofread by an electrochemist maybe? I imagine you hadn't taken such precaution for the paper you submitted = last year to Thermochimica Acta whose terminology of title and abstract = we are discussing (haven't read it further yet BTW, waiting until we = agree on the definition of electrolysis since that's what the paper is = about). A pity since the thermochemists who reviewed that paper probably = read no further than the title and abstract before rejecting it, whereas = apart from terminology the paper may be quite good on the merits! Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:05 AM Subject: [Vo]: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic = Dr. Michael Shermer) > Do you still not see it Ed? >=20 > Michel >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >=20 >=20 >> I'll let you find the error yourself it's quite obvious. Same error = in the two quotes. >>=20 >> Michel >>=20 >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> ... >>>> -> Ed >>>> The title of your paper: >>>> "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a = Heavy-Water Electrolyte" >>>> comprises a surprising confusion in electrochemical terms. >>>> At least I thought it was only in the title until I read the = abstract: >>>> "a sample of palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in = D2O+LiOD" >>>> Can you see your error Ed? I am just making sure you are like Jed = and myself the humble type who gladly admit their errors and even go out = of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike two other = famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die :) >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I don't see what your problem is. >>>=20 >>> Ed >>> - >>>> Michel >>=20 >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 03:30:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F659K3000979; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:05:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F656jw000965; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:05:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:05:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:05:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l2F655A5000941 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73789 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) Status: RO X-Status: Do you still not see it Ed? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > I'll let you find the error yourself it's quite obvious. Same error in the two quotes. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer > ... >>> -> Ed >>> The title of your paper: >>> "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte" >>> comprises a surprising confusion in electrochemical terms. >>> At least I thought it was only in the title until I read the abstract: >>> "a sample of palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in D2O+LiOD" >>> Can you see your error Ed? I am just making sure you are like Jed and myself the humble type who gladly admit their errors and even go out of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike two other famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die :) >>> >> >> I don't see what your problem is. >> >> Ed >> - >>> Michel > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 03:31:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l2F36vvv011050; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:06:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l2F36tMH011031; Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:06:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:06:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:06:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070314144044.03660bf8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73787 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> I interpret "heat after death" as evidence of a self-powered system, >> i.e. a portion of the heat produced is being consumed by the system >> to maintain the production of excess heat. > > I do not think any power is consumed in heat after death, and I do > not think that power is ever required to maintain production of > excess heat. The input power of electrolysis is required to form the > materials, or the NAE. Once the NAE is in place, electrolysis is no > longer required. > > I think heat after death occurs when the deuterium in the palladium > gradually evolves and reaches the surface where the NAE lives. > > - Jed > In hot fusion a critical temperature must be reached before the fusion process becomes self-powering. Cold fusion does not seem to require the temperatures and pressures of hot fusion, but is an NAE enough? Is it so unreasonable to imagine that a given NAE must be at a critical temperature before cold fusion process becomes self powering? Perhaps the critical temperature of a given NAE is more like temperature range. When the NAE is below a certain temperature it is too cold for cold fusion, and when it is above a certain temperature it is too hot for cold fusion. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 03:53:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FAriBT003837; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:53:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FArcKv003806; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:53:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:53:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002801c766f0$31ff7d40$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:53:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73795 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote:- <> If you've been around since the beginning Harry, you will remember that there does indeed appear to be a temperature range for electrolytical CF to manifest itself but, while the temperature of the cell is indeed influenced by the input electrical power, it is not necessary for the raised temperature of the cell to be created by the electrolysis - it is a misleading side effect. It takes a temperature of at least 60 degrees C to fire off (that is from memory/educated guess) - I'm sure Jed knows the correct figure. Actually, there is a danger here that Mitchell Swartz will swoop in with his OOP theory (optimal operating point) so don't shout it out too loudly... Oh BTW Ed, Michel is pointing out that the palladium itself is not electrolysed, although this is what the title of the paper appears to say. I would prefer a scientist to be doing these experiments, rather than a linguist... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 05:39:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FCdCGw016065; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:39:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FCdAr2016019; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:39:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002501c766fe$ebf7a430$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:39:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73796 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy Zac, The links you gave for Texas A&M research in two phase separation shows that Aggies are beginning to learn how to attract research money... err.. well.. maybe after they learn how to spell " seperate" . I don't know any of these guys but if you do, you may mention they can contact me regarding their water in space recovery system . They will need to add "shapes" inside the cyclone separator to produce " sympathetic" vortexes to position the gas and solids for extraction in a zero grav regime. Suspect the project they are working on is mostly for a search for the next funding stage. Have to remember how NASA has morphed . Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 06:58:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FDwJja023026; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:58:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FDwHhP023010; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:58:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:58:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1e2601c76709$f9e305c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:58:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1E23_01C76712.5B6E3550" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73797 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1E23_01C76712.5B6E3550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Palmer=20 To: Vortex-L=20 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer ... Oh BTW Ed, Michel is pointing out that the palladium itself is not=20 electrolysed, although this is what the title of the paper appears to = say. I=20 would prefer a scientist to be doing these experiments, rather than a=20 linguist...=20 If by this you mean that a scientist can be approximative, or even plain = wrong as is the case here (not just in the title but throughout the = whole paper), wrt the terminology of his own research field, I fully = agree with you (although Michael Faraday who finely chiseled the = vocabulary in question here, cf refs below, probably wouldn't = appreciate), provided he acknowledges the error goodheartedly. What I find dangerous for the field, and for science in general, is when = as seems to be the case here a scientist won't admit a minor error, = because this implies that a fortiori he will be unable to admit a major = one. I am not saying that Ed has committed such a major error since I = haven't studied his work yet, only that he cannot be trusted to retract = if he finds such. Someone wrote to me privately "you are being quite merciless to poor Ed = Storms". I am of the opinion that letting silently a colleague err in = science is more damaging to him than pointing out matter-of-factedly his = errors. Note I only point out such errors publicly when the work itself = has been made public. "CF right or wrong" is not my philosophy, but of course I may be wrong = :) Michel References 1.. ^ Ross, S, Faraday Consults the Scholars: The Origins of the Terms = of Electrochemistry in Notes and Records of the Royal Society of London = (1938-1996), Volume 16, Number 2 / 1961, Pages: 187 - 220, [1] consulted = 2006-12-22 2.. ^ Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity. = Seventh Series, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of = London (1776-1886), Volume 124, 01 Jan 1834, Page 77, [2] consulted = 2006-12-27 (in which Faraday introduces the words electrode, anode, = cathode, anion, cation, electrolyte, electrolyze) 3.. ^ Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity, Volume = 1, 1849, reprint of series 1 to 14, freely accessible Gutenberg.org = transcript [3] consulted 2007-01-11 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michel Jullian=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:24 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) I am not pressing you for an answer Ed, but I Googled for your book = soon to be published you advertised here the other day: "The Science of = Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" and found its home page here: http://www.worldscibooks.com/physics/6425.html=20 It says "Pub. date: Scheduled Fall 2007", hopefully it is not too late = to correct it for such errors? Or have you had it proofread by an electrochemist maybe? I imagine you hadn't taken such precaution for the paper you submitted = last year to Thermochimica Acta whose terminology of title and abstract = we are discussing (haven't read it further yet BTW, waiting until we = agree on the definition of electrolysis since that's what the paper is = about). A pity since the thermochemists who reviewed that paper probably = read no further than the title and abstract before rejecting it, whereas = apart from terminology the paper may be quite good on the merits! Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:05 AM Subject: [Vo]: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic = Dr. Michael Shermer) > Do you still not see it Ed? >=20 > Michel >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >=20 >=20 >> I'll let you find the error yourself it's quite obvious. Same error = in the two quotes. >>=20 >> Michel >>=20 >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> ... >>>> -> Ed >>>> The title of your paper: >>>> "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a = Heavy-Water Electrolyte" >>>> comprises a surprising confusion in electrochemical terms. >>>> At least I thought it was only in the title until I read the = abstract: >>>> "a sample of palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in = D2O+LiOD" >>>> Can you see your error Ed? I am just making sure you are like Jed = and myself the humble type who gladly admit their errors and even go out = of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike two other = famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die :) >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I don't see what your problem is. >>>=20 >>> Ed >>> - >>>> Michel >>=20 >> > ------=_NextPart_000_1E23_01C76712.5B6E3550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 = 11:53=20 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic=20 Dr. Michael Shermer
...
Oh BTW Ed,  Michel = is pointing=20 out that the palladium itself is not
electrolysed, although this = is what=20 the title of the paper appears to say. I
would prefer a scientist = to be=20 doing these experiments, rather than a
linguist... =
If by this you mean that a scientist can = be approximative, or=20 even plain wrong as is the case here (not just in the title but = throughout the=20 whole paper), wrt the terminology of his own research field, I = fully=20 agree with you (although Michael Faraday who finely chiseled the = vocabulary in=20 question here, cf refs below, probably wouldn't appreciate), = provided he=20 acknowledges the error goodheartedly.
 
What I find dangerous for the field, and for science in general, is = when as=20 seems to be the case here a scientist won't admit a minor error, because = this=20 implies that a fortiori he will be unable to admit a major one. I am not = saying=20 that Ed has committed such a major error since I haven't studied his = work yet,=20 only that he cannot be trusted to retract if he finds such.
 
Someone wrote to me privately "you = are being=20 quite merciless to poor Ed Storms". I am of the opinion that = letting=20 silently a colleague err in science is more damaging to him than = pointing out=20 matter-of-factedly his errors. Note I only point out such errors = publicly when=20 the work itself has been made public.
 
"CF right or wrong" is not my philosophy, but of = course I may=20 be wrong :)
 
Michel
 

References

  1. ^ Ross, S, = Faraday=20 Consults the Scholars: The Origins of the Terms of = Electrochemistry in=20 Notes and Records of the Royal Society of London (1938-1996), = Volume=20 16, Number 2 / 1961, Pages: 187 - 220, [1] consulted 2006-12-22
  2. ^ Faraday, = Michael,=20 Experimental Researches in Electricity. Seventh Series, = Philosophical=20 Transactions of the Royal Society of London (1776-1886), Volume = 124, 01=20 Jan 1834, Page 77, [2] consulted 2006-12-27 (in which Faraday = introduces the=20 words electrode, = anode,=20 cathode, anion, cation, electrolyte, = electrolyze)
  3. ^ Faraday, = Michael,=20 Experimental Researches in Electricity, Volume 1, 1849, reprint = of=20 series 1 to 14, freely accessible Gutenberg.org transcript [3] = consulted=20 2007-01-11
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michel = Jullian
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 = 10:24=20 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's = confusion=20 (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer)

I am not pressing you for an answer Ed, but I Googled = for your=20 book soon to be published you advertised here the other day: "The = Science of=20 Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" and found its home page here:

http://www.worlds= cibooks.com/physics/6425.html=20

It says "Pub. date: Scheduled Fall 2007", hopefully it is not = too late=20 to correct it for such errors?

Or have you had it proofread by = an=20 electrochemist maybe?

I imagine you hadn't taken such = precaution for=20 the paper you submitted last year to Thermochimica Acta whose = terminology of=20 title and abstract we are discussing (haven't read it further yet BTW, = waiting=20 until we agree on the definition of electrolysis since that's what the = paper=20 is about). A pity since the thermochemists who reviewed that paper = probably=20 read no further than the title and abstract before rejecting it, = whereas apart=20 from terminology the paper may be quite good on the=20 merits!

Michel


----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: = Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:05 AM
Subject: [Vo]: Ed Storm's = confusion (was=20 Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer)


> Do = you=20 still not see it Ed?
>
> Michel
>
> ----- = Original=20 Message -----
> From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> = Sent:=20 Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold = Fusion=20 skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer
>
>
>> I'll let you = find=20 the error yourself it's quite obvious. Same error in the two=20 quotes.
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> ----- = Original Message -----
>> From: "Edmund Storms" <storms2@ix.netcom.com>
&g= t;>=20 To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>&g= t;=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: = [Vo]: Cold=20 Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer
>> ...
>>>> = ->=20 Ed
>>>> The title of your paper:
>>>> = "Anomalous=20 Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water=20 Electrolyte"
>>>> comprises a surprising confusion in=20 electrochemical terms.
>>>> At least I thought it was = only in=20 the title until I read the abstract:
>>>> "a sample of=20 palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in=20 D2O+LiOD"
>>>> Can you see your error Ed? I am just = making sure=20 you are like Jed and myself the humble type who gladly admit their = errors and=20 even go out of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike = two=20 other famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die=20 :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see = what your=20 problem is.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>=20 -
>>>> Michel
>>=20
>>
>
------=_NextPart_000_1E23_01C76712.5B6E3550-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 07:28:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FESs6R024605; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:28:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FESo53024581; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:28:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:28:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070315101948.037568c8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:28:06 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070314144044.03660bf8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_BisK.A.9_F.igV-FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73798 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Cold fusion does not seem to require the temperatures and pressures of hot >fusion, but is an NAE enough? Well, higher temperatures do promote the reaction. Fleischmann and Pons used to trigger a boil off reaction by heating up the cell rapidly with a pulse of joule heating. Lasers and other methods have also been use to trigger or enhance reactions, so perhaps it does take some external energy to get the reaction going, but after that it goes by itself. That is is, it "self-sustains" or as Martin Fleischmann put it: "Afficionados of the field of "Hot Fusion" will realise that there is a large release of excess energy during Stage 5 at zero energy input. The system is therefore operating under conditions which are described as 'Ignition' in 'Hot Fusion'. It appears to us therefore that these types of systems not only 'merit investigation' (as we have stated in the last paragraph) but, more correctly, 'merit frantic investigation'." http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmanreplytothe.pdf I do not know of anyone who has tried to start a cold fusion reaction at freezing or cryogenic temperatures. It would be interesting to see if you could. >Perhaps the critical temperature of a given NAE is more like temperature >range. When the NAE is below a certain temperature it is too cold for cold >fusion, and when it is above a certain temperature it is too hot for cold >fusion. That's plausible. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 07:59:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FEx8da032644; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:59:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FEx7La032610; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:59:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:59:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45F95FD7.7010206@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:01:43 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73799 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel, electrolysis is a process. When I said palladium was electrolyzed, I'm saying that palladium was subjected to the process of electrolysis. This is a common usage that I don't think is important enough to debate. Ed Michel Jullian wrote: > I am not pressing you for an answer Ed, but I Googled for your book soon to be published you advertised here the other day: "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" and found its home page here: > > http://www.worldscibooks.com/physics/6425.html > > It says "Pub. date: Scheduled Fall 2007", hopefully it is not too late to correct it for such errors? > > Or have you had it proofread by an electrochemist maybe? > > I imagine you hadn't taken such precaution for the paper you submitted last year to Thermochimica Acta whose terminology of title and abstract we are discussing (haven't read it further yet BTW, waiting until we agree on the definition of electrolysis since that's what the paper is about). A pity since the thermochemists who reviewed that paper probably read no further than the title and abstract before rejecting it, whereas apart from terminology the paper may be quite good on the merits! > > Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:05 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) > > > >>Do you still not see it Ed? >> >>Michel >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Michel Jullian" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:29 AM >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >> >> >> >>>I'll let you find the error yourself it's quite obvious. Same error in the two quotes. >>> >>>Michel >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>To: >>>Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:17 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer >>>... >>> >>>>>-> Ed >>>>>The title of your paper: >>>>>"Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte" >>>>>comprises a surprising confusion in electrochemical terms. >>>>>At least I thought it was only in the title until I read the abstract: >>>>>"a sample of palladium foil was electrolyzed as the cathode in D2O+LiOD" >>>>>Can you see your error Ed? I am just making sure you are like Jed and myself the humble type who gladly admit their errors and even go out of their way to do so, as a real scientist should, unlike two other famous CF researchers we know, who would rather die :) >>>>> >>>> >>>>I don't see what your problem is. >>>> >>>>Ed >>>>- >>>> >>>>>Michel >>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 11:01:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FI1X2R031253; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:01:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FI1Vpw031240; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:01:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:01:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=p9NaTsHf1m9cBoa5LrXSAX7YKAbsjh8FHuaZuXR5v4+TzK8G9XlC0WcFvi/MB5pmTYDGrUmt5NmlBXoUct4wV3RD3ru70r4E48QYwatHDBzsrc0MVn5xRUdCCM/im/YhmDa5T2YWjZvYDyXtVqBwkOtHl1GygxCmUoI5w1sVMX4= ; X-YMail-OSG: VzxizacVM1nCKwpBXFCvmIHwY5d2Zvn1jyEtbztID9Se8zz8HWfFm3pKx4FnzeiSs9gWCUbrbBj4nn52EnMrQTdXi234OTG8KL3kjW1p0pVEYd_IkAJXuQ-- Message-ID: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:01:27 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73800 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: The O6 molecular isomer is also-known-as "diozone" - which to the word-phreak, has a peculiar negative connotation - kind of like being caught between the death-zone and the outer ozone layer of Chem-E stoners ... ... and/or other assorted slackers: http://imdb.com/title/tt0102943/ ...(for those who saw/were the prototype of this category) ...not to offend an associate in Austin who has made-amends, later in life, as is often the case with the maturation of misspent-youth. Now, more to the point: here is something else from the not-quite-either extreme of the ozone connotation spectrum - but yet it creates its own category of subtle alternative extreme, as most Vo's will no doubt agree. http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/ozone.htm "We believe that our ozone generator is producing significant amounts of O6 or diozone. It looks like this diozone can be used as a "leash" to capture and manipulate the ORMUS atoms. Here is a bit more background information on this concept." Slackingly yours, Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 13:59:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FKwu2d008691; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:58:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FKwrfZ008667; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:58:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:58:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:58:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:58:47 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73801 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:22:54 +0100: Hi Michel, >Hi Robin, I know of no such analysis but I am intrigued by your question > >> SIMS analysis run on either pure deuterium=20 > >In which form ? Can one run a SIMS analysis on a gas? > >> where *only* the deuteride went in, but some H (1H) came out? > >You mean HD goes into the metal and H comes out? No, I mean D2 goes in and H is detected by SIMS. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 14:13:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FLDlQT030835; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:13:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FLDjYd030815; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:13:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:13:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1e7001c76746$ce180200$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F95FD7.7010206@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:13:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73802 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) > Michel, electrolysis is a process. When I said palladium was=20 > electrolyzed, I'm saying that palladium was subjected to the process = of=20 > electrolysis. This is a common usage that I don't think is important=20 > enough to debate. Ed, this is not even open to debate. If it was a common usage among = professional electrochemists, which it isn't fortunately, then it would = be a common mistake. Believe the man who invented the terms rather than = the first ignoramus who "electrolyzed palladium" whoever that was: "Many bodies are decomposed directly by the electric current, their = elements being set free; these I propose to call electrolytes ([Greek: = elektron], and [Greek: lyo], soluo. N. Electrolyte, V. Electrolyze). = Water, therefore, is an electrolyte. [...] Then for electro-chemically = decomposed, I shall often use the term electrolyzed, derived in the same = way, and implying that the body spoken of is separated into its = components under the influence of electricity: it is analogous in its = sense and sound to analyse, which is derived in a similar manner." Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity. Seventh = Series, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London = (1776-1886), Volume 124, 01 Jan 1834, Page 77, reprinted in: Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity, Volume 1, = 1849, freely accessible Gutenberg.org transcript http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14986/14986-h/14986-h.htm=20 Controversy solved? -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 14:24:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FLOLLa001176; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:24:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FLOJTB001155; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:24:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:24:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070315142623.10a16bd8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:27:29 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Shadow Marketing Inc. Offers to Acquire D2Fusion, Inc. In-Reply-To: <45DB51F1.9020708@pobox.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070220103049.02c525d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <45DB51F1.9020708@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73803 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Say what??? Who's buying whom here? And who is buying it? New Energy Times investigates. March 18. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 14:25:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FLOlEB019978; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:24:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FLOhiu019939; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:24:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:24:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1e7701c76748$57c84f40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:24:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73804 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Er, D2 is not a deuteride is it? That's why I thought you meant HD = (hydrogen deuteride). Anyway so you mean molecular deuterium D2 goes into e.g. the palladium = (thus forming a palladium deuteride PdD), and H comes out? By which = mechanism? Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:22:54 = +0100: Hi Michel, >Hi Robin, I know of no such analysis but I am intrigued by your = question > >> SIMS analysis run on either pure deuterium=20 > >In which form ? Can one run a SIMS analysis on a gas? > >> where *only* the deuteride went in, but some H (1H) came out? > >You mean HD goes into the metal and H comes out? No, I mean D2 goes in and H is detected by SIMS. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 14:29:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FLSnHW006196; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:28:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FLSksf006140; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:28:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:28:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: JHS questions on evolved gas energy in CF Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:28:38 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4gejv2lcqf3d08stnf66cog1iolj1srn60@4ax.com> References: <125e01c76622$41b942d0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <125e01c76622$41b942d0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:28:37 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73805 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:19:31 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Please note that the -285.83 kJ/mol reaction enthalpy this calculation = is based on is for STP conditions 1atm and 25=B0C, so for different = conditions e.g. 1atm and 100=B0C the appropriate reaction enthalpy must = be used and will yield a different thermo-neutral voltage value. Most definitions of STP that I am aware of use 0 C as the temperature, = though according to Wiki, there is an old US version that uses 60 F (15.56 C). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_conditions_for_temperature_and_pres= sure Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 14:54:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FLsPPK007366; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:54:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FLsKFI007340; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:54:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:54:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QIxzuyUbHTGSR4Pyg5P8McIKg+FFMknlBh5EbWaZT9sy+oO2MVR6/H6C4GbN058IyVstiBSXW3xWc1fQfHNMBqRV7Q1AXEZc6CaNxF540DaMsQpriVTFbRvIfmLIqt6qgqo51nDnCktjYB8PQk8YySqhW+bsu0E72OuJ6D6CcR4= ; X-YMail-OSG: IiW.j0MVM1mgsxg6PK2AGz.FdW.2NPYrctZKm5pJ5f6NJvggBd4sS4Pp9umI.QnajSFwA3cgbaXMGRVljuQSIHI.afysiqrEZNv6jLkfgTK6zm1Ih97Ab8FdL.liPMYJLte55BxOabIBGxo- Message-ID: <45F9C089.1090702@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:54:17 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73806 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Compulsator, railguns and Graneau Status: O X-Status: For all the big-water (Graneau) water-arc aficionados in Volandia... ...ever have that sudden urge to go out and build yourself a railgun? I know I do ;-) [Note to MIB - this particular symbol: ;-) in email messages, means that the writer intended the comment as a joke, more or less] Problem is, if powering a rail gun were all that easy, then any terrorist worth his Baba Ghanoush would be raining projectiles across the Potomac in no time. Osama would be using Gmail and Google to triangulate and inform his associates of their chosen target. And caveman-Bin-L can't be stopped by the FBI with the Patriot Act, at least, as they are too busy using up their eavesdropping resources to spy on the Democrats and other assorted Bush-Bashers. No, making a rail gun isn't for sissies anymore, nor camel-jocks. But the geek answer to this problem is the "compulsator." Bet you have never heard of it. However, the compulsator is worth a mention here, as it may have alternative energy aspects as well. Yes. In keeping with a previous message - that alternative energy aspect is to be found in the Graneau water-arc, already thought to have a COP=2. And if hydrinos are involved, the more the merrier. More on that in a later posting. In an EM device, the compulsator is the name for a "compensated pulsed alternator," a pulse power supply that is mechanically "compensated" to make it better at delivering spiked pulses of intense electrical energy. US Patent #4200831: Compensated Pulsed Alternator US Patent #4935708: High Energy Pulse Forming Generator ... or more references are here: http://www.rollette.com/railgun/compulsator/ The idea is to morph an alternator, flywheel and capacitor. The compulsator is used like a capacitor-on-steroids which is combined with a flywheel to store energy input over time - from a lower-power source to dump in a short period -- only at a higher level and far cheaper than your normal large cap array. 10-1 cost advantage minimum(maybe 50-1 if you already have a rotary device as part of a larger system). The windings of a compulsator are different from an alternator in that they have minimal inductance, allowing the current in the windings to change and discharge very rapidly. The kinetic energy of a rotating object depends on the mass and the square of the speed of rotation. Therefore, compulsators tend to have rotors that spin rapidly - and in principle a turbine alone, or one driven by diesel exhaust at 100,000 RPM is a nice starting point for this double-duty device. One military possibility (probability) in these days of reduced budgets for the Army brass - is an "electric tank" which uses a diesel-electric generator for propulsion, like a Prius on steroids, and then double duty to charge and turn the compulsator, which is itself used to power a railgun -- instead of the normal cannon. Saves a lot of bucks "on brass, for brass" so to speak. My biggest question for using a hybrid compulsator to drive a Graneau style water-arc explosion, perhaps repetitively in a hybrid-hybrid turbine generator: Do you get the same energy anomaly (COP=2) with HOOH as with HOH, on top of the COP=5 of the fuel (based on relative heat content), or has that "extra" hidden energy in H2O already been used up in the manufacture of the HOOH? If the full double advantage is there (due to natural on manufactured hydrinos) - then Halliburton of Dubai may loose its main big brass-in-pocket account... heck, they are big-oil 'Pretenders' anyway, at least without the help of their inside man, soon to be emasculated by a little Italian woman. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 14:57:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FLun2n008350; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:56:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FLulR1008331; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:56:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:56:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1e8101c7674c$d4ec4d60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <125e01c76622$41b942d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <4gejv2lcqf3d08stnf66cog1iolj1srn60@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: JHS questions on evolved gas energy in CF Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:56:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73807 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Robin. I think the H2O formation enthalpy figure I quoted is for = 1 atm and 25=B0C as I wrote (someone kindly confirm), but indeed those = conditions are not STP (which is 1atm and 0=B0C as you say), my mistake. Replace 'STP' by 'reference'. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: JHS questions on evolved gas energy in CF In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:19:31 = +0100: Hi, [snip] >Please note that the -285.83 kJ/mol reaction enthalpy this calculation = is based on is for STP conditions 1atm and 25=B0C, so for different = conditions e.g. 1atm and 100=B0C the appropriate reaction enthalpy must = be used and will yield a different thermo-neutral voltage value. Most definitions of STP that I am aware of use 0 C as the temperature, = though according to Wiki, there is an old US version that uses 60 F (15.56 C). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_conditions_for_temperature_and_pres= sure Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 15:04:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FM3vb1011330; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:03:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FM3upK011306; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:03:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:03:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:03:50 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1efjv29sshgmemvv22bp83po0skqdm839i@4ax.com> References: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> <1e7701c76748$57c84f40$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <1e7701c76748$57c84f40$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:03:48 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73808 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:24:40 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Er, D2 is not a deuteride is it? That's why I thought you meant HD = (hydrogen deuteride). > >Anyway so you mean molecular deuterium D2 goes into e.g. the palladium = (thus forming a palladium deuteride PdD), and H comes out?=20 Yes, and no. I mean D2 goes in forming e.g. PdD, but SIMS analysis turns = up some H as well. Then I would need to know the % of the Hydrogen that turned up= as H (as opposed to D), and also the purity of the original D2. I'm both looking for evidence of Faux D, and trying to determine what = percentage it is of real D. A related question is how is the purity of heavy water determined? >By which mechanism? The primary ions used in SIMS have enough energy to convert most Faux D = into H + Hydrino, so an increase in the H content would indicate how much Faux D = was present. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 15:20:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2FMKdGM025364; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:20:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2FMKbkd025343; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:20:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:20:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Compulsator, railguns and Graneau Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:20:36 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45F9C089.1090702@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45F9C089.1090702@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:20:34 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <-CoKPD.A.6LG.1ac-FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73809 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:54:17 -0700: Hi, [snip] >My biggest question for using a hybrid compulsator to drive a Graneau >style water-arc explosion, perhaps repetitively in a hybrid-hybrid=20 >turbine generator: Do you get the same energy anomaly (COP=3D2) with = HOOH=20 >as with HOH, on top of the COP=3D5 of the fuel (based on relative heat=20 >content), or has that "extra" hidden energy in H2O already been used up=20 >in the manufacture of the HOOH? [snip] If the extra boost in the Graneau experiments comes from Hydrino = formation, then I would expect HOOH to work even better than H2O, because under plasma conditions O should readily be released from HOOH, and consequently O++ = would seem more likely to form, and hence Hydrino formation would also be more = likely. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 15 23:11:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2G6BJoF015563; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:11:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2G6BGEg015547; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:11:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:11:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FA34E6.6030606@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 01:10:46 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether Theory References: <003a01c7663e$97e15140$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <003a01c7663e$97e15140$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73810 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >Hi Thomas, > > >>Does one of you have a website about the Aether? >> > >I have a web site on the Aether Physics Model at www.16pi2.com > > > Thanks for the info David. I forwarded your info to Hal Puthoff, www.earthtech.org , perhaps he will comment on your theories. Our interest is cohereing the energy in the Aether. I've been following the work of Dale Pond who claims to have replicated the Dynasphere of John E W Keely, www.svpvril.com . He claims that the Dynasphere taps the Strong Force. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 00:20:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2G7Kaa5022973; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:20:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2G7KYT0022958; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:20:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:20:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c7679b$985d1f60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> <1e7701c76748$57c84f40$3800a8c0@zothan> <1efjv29sshgmemvv22bp83po0skqdm839i@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:20:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73811 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Faux D being a H-Hydrino molecule (mass ~2 nucleons) looking like a D = atom (mass ~2 nucleons) ?? Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:24:40 = +0100: Hi, [snip] >Er, D2 is not a deuteride is it? That's why I thought you meant HD = (hydrogen deuteride). > >Anyway so you mean molecular deuterium D2 goes into e.g. the palladium = (thus forming a palladium deuteride PdD), and H comes out?=20 Yes, and no. I mean D2 goes in forming e.g. PdD, but SIMS analysis turns = up some H as well. Then I would need to know the % of the Hydrogen that turned = up as H (as opposed to D), and also the purity of the original D2. I'm both looking for evidence of Faux D, and trying to determine what = percentage it is of real D. A related question is how is the purity of heavy water determined? >By which mechanism? The primary ions used in SIMS have enough energy to convert most Faux D = into H + Hydrino, so an increase in the H content would indicate how much Faux D = was present. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 02:22:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2G9M6sw019468; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 02:22:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2G9M4xE019437; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 02:22:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 02:22:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Ozone and isotopes of O by microwave exitation Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:21:57 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.14 (On: webmail.textdrivehosting.com) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002501c766fe$ebf7a430$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "Zachary Jones" Bounce-To: "Zachary Jones" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73812 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If I had time now, or resources, to contact them in the interest of mutually beneficial work, such would inevitably be part of my communication. Good work would be done given support to facilitate it. Zak On 3/15/2007, "R.C.Macaulay" wrote: >Howdy Zac, > >The links you gave for Texas A&M research in two phase separation shows that >Aggies are beginning to learn how to attract research money... err.. well.. >maybe after they learn how to spell " seperate" . > I don't know any of these guys but if you do, you may mention they can >contact me regarding their water in space recovery system . They will need >to add "shapes" inside the cyclone separator to produce " sympathetic" >vortexes to position the gas and solids for extraction in a zero grav >regime. >Suspect the project they are working on is mostly for a search for the next >funding stage. Have to remember how NASA has morphed . > >Richard > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 03:14:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GAE84C005645; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:14:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GAE5qQ005627; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:14:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:14:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BaCV+V7q/QsPS9b8z1x0kaHP7z9rnbQgxnlmJJ4Xl4oIJQoX6FxjUhglfpTPi7yB; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007351610135414@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 04:13:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409df352cacb608abbea5aeeb42ae7b352350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.203 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73813 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Three Phase Tesla Coils, Perhaps? Delta or Wye Connected? Buehler's High Voltage (D.C.) Capacitor Experiments: http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf Biefield-Brown Effect: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewarticle.php?id=39 No Net Charge Electric Dipole Interaction with E-Fields: http://physnet.org/home/modules/pdf_modules/m120.pdf Subject: Re: Induced Electric Dipole-Dipole E-Field Interaction Three-Point Analogy with rapid "Point-Switching Stabilization"; O (1) (2) O O(3) 1, 1 Plus, 2 minus, 3 neutral 2, 1 minus 2 plus 3 neutral 3, 3 minus 1 plus 2 neutral Or Such?, to maintain a dipole interaction with the earth's "~ 500 megacoulomb excess negative charge field", even though there is No Net Charge on the system. This can be done with a triangle of three interconnected "sphere within sphere" capacitors rather than "flat plate" capacitors to obtain stability and directional-attitude control. When you understand the connections, please fill me in. http://physnet.org/home/modules/pdf_modules/m120.pdf ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Three Phase Tesla Coils, Perhaps?  Delta or Wye Connected?
 
Buehler's High Voltage (D.C.) Capacitor Experiments:
 
 
 
Biefield-Brown Effect:
 
 
No Net Charge Electric Dipole Interaction with E-Fields:
 
 
Subject: Re: Induced Electric Dipole-Dipole E-Field Interaction
 
Three-Point Analogy with rapid "Point-Switching Stabilization";
 
                  O (1)
 
      (2) O            O(3)
 
1,    1  Plus, 2 minus, 3 neutral
 
2,    1 minus   2 plus  3  neutral
 
3,   3 minus  1 plus   2 neutral
 
Or Such?, to maintain a dipole interaction with the earth's "~ 500 megacoulomb excess negative charge field",
even though there is No Net Charge on the system. 
 
This can be done with  a triangle of three interconnected "sphere within sphere" capacitors rather than
"flat plate" capacitors to obtain stability and directional-attitude control.
 
When you understand the connections, please fill me in. 
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 06:03:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GD3b6F030230; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:03:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GD3ZHB030212; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:03:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:03:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:03:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <5J-eQD.A.1XH.mWp-FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73814 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: Howdy Jones, You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. One must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before launching into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to Ormus... and that is a stretch. Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", it can be taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile force" qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a socalled "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better constructed railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange beasty indeed.. Why so ? Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or impact. Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the flesh,eyes and tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) Zec: 14. This description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the projectile does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a new method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. He does describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. Reminds me of the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters in the pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool thereafter would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex and only the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was destroyed by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex properties dissappear? Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky still left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " thinkin drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 07:09:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GE8s8d011263; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:08:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GE8qj8011246; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:08:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:08:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Aether Theory Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:08:32 -0600 Message-ID: <003901c767d4$9b6a4870$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <45FA34E6.6030606@usfamily.net> Thread-Index: Acdnkk0d6jdnUuMmTKSm5UkTGbPvNAAOSCgw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73815 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, > I've been following the work of Dale Pond who claims to have replicated the Dynasphere of John E W Keely, www.svpvril.com . He claims that the Dynasphere taps the Strong Force. Dale Pond is correct that Keely tapped the strong force. In particular, Keely tapped the unbinding of molecules by using resonance. Since every atomic binding has a distance between bonds, every molecule has a frequency, which when resonated, will cause the bond to break apart. For water, the resonance needed to break the bond is about 42.8 kHz (going from memory). I have been working with my own versions of mechanical resonators. Instead of relying on a closed spherical resonator, I'm trying to develop a sufficiently strong electromechanical resonator on the cheap. I have had some successes in that I can generate mechanical oscillations well over 50 kHz. The method is to send a pulsed DC signal into a large flat spiral coil with a copper diaphragm and very strong NIB magnet over it. The strong NIB magnet mainly provides mass and strong magnetic coupling with the flat spiral coil magnetic field. I have yet to hook up my 700 watt audio amplifier to it, which is rated to 50 kHz. When I'm sure everything is right, I'll fire it up to reproduce this experiment: http://www.keelynet.com/energy/docx.htm I have also been in contact with a UK physicist for the past three years who has succeeded in dissociating all kinds of materials. He now runs an energy company that dissociates hazardous wastes (chemical weapons, light radioactive waste, biohazard material, daily trash, etc), which not only converts dangerous materials into an inert fine white powder, but also releases more energy than was put into the dissociation process, which is ultimately converted to electricity. The white powder is then used for making useful building materials. He has businesses established throughout Europe, Africa and Asia. I have information from a different source that certain US demilitarization facilities have been closed down. It appears to be because they now have this safer and more efficient method for disposing of waste. Keely's technology is alive and well and already in commercial use, although they don't use hollow spheres and tuning forks. Everything is done through perfectly engineered resonance within plasmas. One of the unique predictions of the Aether Physics Model is that there is a quantum length to the Universe and that most atoms bind with a distance between them greater than the quantum distance. The greater the distance between bindings, the more stable the atom becomes. The binding distance maxes out around iron, cobalt, and nickel. Certain atomic isotopes, which also happen to be fusion materials, have a binding distance less than the quantum length. The only stable element with an average binding length less than the quantum length is lithium. Every isotope of lithium is potential fusion material. It is my untested belief that the reason lithium batteries are known to explode is not just because of body heat, but because lithium can be set to resonance very easily and generates a fusion reaction. Deuterium and tritium are two other highly fusionable materials with average binding distances less than the quantum length. It is possible to get water and other molecules to dissociate via resonance, which releases energy by undoing the Van der Waals force. However, it is possible to resonate certain atoms, which causes them to use the strong nuclear force to in turn resonate the Aether, which absorbs new dark matter into the visible Universe, which creates new visible matter (aka fusion). New matter is the same thing as free energy. The Van der Waals force is just an extension of the strong nuclear force, except that instead of being applied internally, it is applied externally. Permanent magnetism is another manifestation of the strong force. The strong force is very strong, indeed, as Keely found out when his apparatus exploded on several occasions. In the water dissociation experiment mentioned above, all the material in the dissociating water's path was also dematerialized. When science advances by trial and error, the odds are always in favor of the error. That is why I set aside my experiments early on and ended up developing the Aether Physics Model. It is better to engineer an experiment than stumble upon an unexpected result. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 07:31:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GEVSto025450; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:31:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GEVPWs025437; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:31:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:31:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0cbf01c767d7$c3d4a0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:31:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73816 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone Status: RO X-Status: For a projectile what matters is momentum, and light does have momentum, = that's what pushes solar sails. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone > Howdy Jones, >=20 > You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. = One=20 > must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before = launching=20 > into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to = Ormus... and=20 > that is a stretch. >=20 > Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", it = can be=20 > taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile force"=20 > qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a = socalled=20 > "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better = constructed=20 > railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange beasty = > indeed.. Why so ? > Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or impact. = > Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the = flesh,eyes and=20 > tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) Zec: = 14. This=20 > description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the = projectile=20 > does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. >=20 > You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a = new=20 > method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. He = does=20 > describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. Reminds = me of=20 > the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters in = the=20 > pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool = thereafter=20 > would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex and = only=20 > the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was = destroyed=20 > by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex properties = > dissappear? >=20 > Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky = still=20 > left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " = thinkin=20 > drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. >=20 > Richard=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 07:41:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GEeuAm024511; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:40:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GEeqJT024478; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:40:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:40:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nIbqdchlomgAjR7/xn0aU3Sqh9gNm0Bqd62fRAzbE2i8VUCAz5E/yNGH5sZ9kYuvb7FBl8AEfT0KYDmC7l5yYObNN+AtS+X7eEUNlF6ceKSCNHNQJiOVlkN357zxjDHhRtog06JkScOa+v01oXKoTaHkMRuBmfd9noaT1N0+rZg= ; X-YMail-OSG: R3Im2D4VM1kyclqKUgdEg32GpXyGGiQyGya1uhc9jg3y5085oksRFa2eLHL_wCtCHgE_3JVeccPS9YKrYi.cNgjFhQAb84qgdW62CRe8CTH289nLTlPAOwHk4YFJULSnz2O0yJv6NsgsDYM- Message-ID: <45FAAC70.2070103@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:40:48 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73817 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: Richard, One other thing turned up in my mini-quest to ascertain if there were any valid alternative energy aspects - to be found in the various allotrope's of oxygen.... This particular company/patent/consultant (ARAN) may be where you started, as it seems that you have been at this pursuit for a while, while the subject just recently stirred my interest a couple of days ago (but for obvious reasons, since an efficient source of this species (aka - "polyoxygen") if made cheaply from air would be of interest in the manufacture of HOOH. Certainly however, if it were cheap enough AND a liquid at near RT - AND at the same time, relatively stable (that is unclear) then who needs peroxide? There is also the claim (unsubstantiated) that NASA is already using polyoxygen, and will be accelerating that use, but that seems unlikely, as the last shuttle launch still had the foam insulation - and something as basic as a "new fuel" would leak out (the news, not the diozone). Anyway here is a reference, and I will try to dig deeper into the missing details, when time permits: http://transformationalbreakthroughs.org/intpartners/h01coverallotropicoxygen.htm This outfit, as you will realize if you can wade through their tons of BS - is big on self-promotion and tiny on demonstrable lab results (typical LA!). They apparently got a patent and are trying to sell it to a deep pocket funder, or to get the DoD, or anyone else in government (Tom Ridge - LOL) interested. I do not sense that their gambit will work, without some real and demonstrable lab results, but who knows. Anyway - there is something they missed in the whole scenario, and that is the use of a "natural" nano-template for getting the species to form under high pressure - 2800 psi or so. I haven't fleshed-out the dimensional details yet, but if you are going somewhere with this, I will forward them to you first - should the math hold up under closer scrutiny, and it does seem possible at first blush that the particular template will work (on paper at least). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 08:24:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GFNox4014043; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:23:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GFNma0014026; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:23:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:23:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aKVn7JbEs0G5wY3pSFsv2JfTkENxI3bHcgg13A3t5745nH+PRiv/r8EQXyfKqEwhQAPKMYGrwLNehDqkwr73BH0EzjJnjzWK3EEZmeB9kooorTyttp7O0ivuwMyOKfRDtqOWpKekvQI8cDyKVDCjFqzoCFEekKQ8DXWRwZ47RlE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AjM9AO2iXm5rHy9kvhjogBksXj95+5LxEsEwM32xxTqyGDopBI4Ey2J00OCwVNIEkR0CbMjldB9NgqU/w6mJh+deMln3DsCKA5wop1lW6hVPDzhcQM4WlBYssYUEwuzlS16H05x2NwsgWnMJ6mYEb3aYIfZ0GzqlwBzOwaE50as= Message-ID: <45FAC48E.4040206@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:23:42 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Proof of capturing ambient temperature energy References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070220103049.02c525d8@mail.newenergytimes.com> <45DB51F1.9020708@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070315142623.10a16bd8@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070315142623.10a16bd8@mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5o8j8B.A.BbD.Ear-FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73818 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, An well known member at Vo sent me the following email. Please see my comments. Undisclosed person: > In reply to Paul message of Sun, 04 Mar 2007 11:30:54 -0800: > Hi Paul, > [snip] > Has it occurred to you that the device you envisage would cost about the same as > a solar cell, but produce far less energy? No it wouldn't. It would work nonstop 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, in the complete darkness in ones basement or in complete daylight. That's the technology I'm working on. Furthermore, the first goal is to merely prove it exists. I have proof energy from ambient temperature is capturable. One of the simplest examples is a capacitor connected to a resistor. Sure, the cap will continue to charge & discharge until it's disconnected from the resistor, but the point is energy contained in ambient temperature is capturable. I have other experiments that convert such ambient temperature to DC, but they are difficult/time-consuming to replicate. Tom has a nice experiment that's simple to replicate, but it's a little costly --> http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ To give you an example of the amount of energy simple radiated by ambient temperature alone a very thin sheet, 1 x 1 m^2, radiates ~920 watts. Theoretically thousands of such sheets could stack less than one inch high. My magnetic avalanche research indicates a device the size of a coffee cup could potentially extract tens of kilowatts of continues energy day or night. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 08:55:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GFtE6Y029425; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:55:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GFtCOv029412; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:55:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:55:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AwZ4F1UC3qYiOzN5CGQtHrjpHKeQ0GEostAvi+BkMuZbgnunUI7n5ehbGGqDBFHXbOpz+ogTjWy4s6cbmNO6AhLpZLRoCfC0g6RS3HPxuQ4CB+NOTfuW0AtsxAgUZiFWSliZDI3PqFioDNyq9nZk/EL6C2HghbDvpWN7KzQwzSo= ; X-YMail-OSG: hD.yeNYVM1m2obzNYagcmGmC9bTTy4svfpEPcXXpdNDWrRE8Dn9V3dE428JDOJIqrovFghNhaC.I5gOySu2UvIQzp8zgbeHb1pJmMwvqpFseu2oQlZNdNe8LPO5Ag8JjF.Il61axvNhaSwU- Message-ID: <45FABDD9.1020402@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:55:05 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <45FAAC70.2070103@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45FAAC70.2070103@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73819 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cheap Lauch or Free Lunch was: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: Hypothetical situation: Let's say your space budget was under immense political pressure to contain costs. Let's say that 90% of the out-of-pocket cost for a launch, excluding the "sunk costs" is in liquid H2. This is not far off. H2 itself, made from methane, is relatively cheap but it is extraordinarily expensive to liquefy, and to keep in that state -and those $$ are out-of-pocket, for every launch. If this were not so, NASA would be sending up many more shuttles than they do now - as the hardware was designed to be used more often than is done. Let's say that using liquid methane and liquid O2 would be great from a cost standpoint, but the isp -- the specific thrust which is available from your (already in-place) launch-vehicle engines is too low with this fuel combo. You can make minor changes to the vehicle but not major. Is there an any happy medium which would save about half or more of the out-of-pocket cost for a payload? That would be where the hypothetical species: poly-oxygen (diozone specifically) would come in. Even if it were not stable (too risky) to store as a pre-manufactured liquid, it is possible that it could be made 'on the fly' from liquid O2 fast enough to be used in a modified engine, in order to burn LNG hot enough to get the same isp, as the alternative, but at a small percentage of the out-of-pocket cost. The key add-on would be an inline reactor subsystem, which would use high pressure O2 which has already been used to cool the rocket motor and then after polymerization - vent the diozone back into the motor. This reactor would, of necessity, contain an intense UV source in the critical spectrum of 254 nm. It would likely need to be a coherent source of UV light. O2 becomes extraordinarily reactive under 245 nm radiation, and would entropically "seek" to become more stable in such a situation (on paper by taking on a new structure). We do not know if - and how far - R&D for this effort has gone, but there are thinly disguised hints: http://www.aculight.com/Downloads/NASA%20SBIR%20Contract.pdf Anyway -- under this spectrum of irradiation, it is (arguably) possible that diozone is the favored species to be formed from high pressure O2 in a 245 nm UV coherent field, and also that its lifetime of stability as a bound-ring exceeds the transit time to the rocket engine. That is pure speculation - maybe it is pure BS . All I can say for sure - is that if this scenario were even remotely in the ball-park of accuracy, then NASA would have already been on it, like the proverbial stink-on-you-know-what. No bull. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 09:10:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GG9oTI001202; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:09:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GG9m8A001186; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:09:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:09:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:09:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone In-reply-to: <0cbf01c767d7$c3d4a0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73820 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In my natural philosophy, light has an _apparent_ momentum, because the nature of light is such that it refuses to be subjected to a mechanical force. (I do mean "refuses" and not simply "resists"). Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > For a projectile what matters is momentum, and light does have momentum, > that's what pushes solar sails. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R.C.Macaulay" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone > > >> Howdy Jones, >> >> You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. One >> must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before launching >> into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to Ormus... and >> that is a stretch. >> >> Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", it can be >> taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile force" >> qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a socalled >> "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better constructed >> railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange beasty >> indeed.. Why so ? >> Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or impact. >> Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the flesh,eyes and >> tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) Zec: 14. This >> description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the projectile >> does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. >> >> You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a new >> method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. He does >> describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. Reminds me of >> the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters in the >> pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool thereafter >> would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex and only >> the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was destroyed >> by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex properties >> dissappear? >> >> Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky still >> left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " thinkin >> drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. >> >> Richard >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 09:29:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GGTJTN029372; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:29:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GGTHUQ029354; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:29:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:29:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0cf401c767e8$3a916830$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:29:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73821 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, it does bounce back from the object (e.g. solar sail) it imparted = momentum to, with total momentum being conserved and all. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone > In my natural philosophy, light has an _apparent_ momentum, because = the > nature of light is such that it refuses to be subjected to a = mechanical > force. (I do mean "refuses" and not simply "resists"). >=20 > Harry >=20 > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >> For a projectile what matters is momentum, and light does have = momentum, >> that's what pushes solar sails. >>=20 >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure >>=20 >> Michel >>=20 >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "R.C.Macaulay" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 PM >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone >>=20 >>=20 >>> Howdy Jones, >>>=20 >>> You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. = One >>> must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before = launching >>> into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to = Ormus... and >>> that is a stretch. >>>=20 >>> Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", = it can be >>> taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile force" >>> qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a = socalled >>> "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better = constructed >>> railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange = beasty >>> indeed.. Why so ? >>> Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or = impact. >>> Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the = flesh,eyes and >>> tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) Zec: = 14. This >>> description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the = projectile >>> does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the = flesh. >>>=20 >>> You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a = new >>> method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. He = does >>> describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. = Reminds me of >>> the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters = in the >>> pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool = thereafter >>> would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex = and only >>> the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was = destroyed >>> by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex = properties >>> dissappear? >>>=20 >>> Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky = still >>> left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " = thinkin >>> drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. >>>=20 >>> Richard=20 >>>=20 >>=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 09:41:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GGfWXh018408; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:41:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GGfVQe018396; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:41:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:41:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0cfa01c767e9$f0f11200$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F95FD7.7010206@ix.netcom.com> <1e7001c76746$ce180200$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:41:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73822 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) Status: RO X-Status: It follows that saying "palladium was electrolyzed in D2O+LiOD" is like = saying "a blood tester was analyzed in blood", sounds absurd doesn't it? = If it's too late to correct your book for such absurdities, could you = correct at least the paper so it doesn't disgrace the lenr.org library? Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:13 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) > Michel, electrolysis is a process. When I said palladium was=20 > electrolyzed, I'm saying that palladium was subjected to the process = of=20 > electrolysis. This is a common usage that I don't think is important=20 > enough to debate. Ed, this is not even open to debate. If it was a common usage among = professional electrochemists, which it isn't fortunately, then it would = be a common mistake. Believe the man who invented the terms rather than = the first ignoramus who "electrolyzed palladium" whoever that was: "Many bodies are decomposed directly by the electric current, their = elements being set free; these I propose to call electrolytes ([Greek: = elektron], and [Greek: lyo], soluo. N. Electrolyte, V. Electrolyze). = Water, therefore, is an electrolyte. [...] Then for electro-chemically = decomposed, I shall often use the term electrolyzed, derived in the same = way, and implying that the body spoken of is separated into its = components under the influence of electricity: it is analogous in its = sense and sound to analyse, which is derived in a similar manner." Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity. Seventh = Series, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London = (1776-1886), Volume 124, 01 Jan 1834, Page 77, reprinted in: Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity, Volume 1, = 1849, freely accessible Gutenberg.org transcript http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14986/14986-h/14986-h.htm=20 Controversy solved? -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 09:49:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GGnO9M010039; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:49:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GGnMlP010019; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:49:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:49:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:48:47 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) In-reply-to: <0cfa01c767e9$f0f11200$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73823 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel, It might be more helpful if you would say how you would title the paper. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > It follows that saying "palladium was electrolyzed in D2O+LiOD" is like saying > "a blood tester was analyzed in blood", sounds absurd doesn't it? If it's too > late to correct your book for such absurdities, could you correct at least the > paper so it doesn't disgrace the lenr.org library? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:13 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. > Michael Shermer) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic > Dr. Michael Shermer) > >> Michel, electrolysis is a process. When I said palladium was >> electrolyzed, I'm saying that palladium was subjected to the process of >> electrolysis. This is a common usage that I don't think is important >> enough to debate. > > Ed, this is not even open to debate. If it was a common usage among > professional electrochemists, which it isn't fortunately, then it would be a > common mistake. Believe the man who invented the terms rather than the first > ignoramus who "electrolyzed palladium" whoever that was: > > "Many bodies are decomposed directly by the electric current, their elements > being set free; these I propose to call electrolytes ([Greek: elektron], and > [Greek: lyo], soluo. N. Electrolyte, V. Electrolyze). Water, therefore, is an > electrolyte. [...] Then for electro-chemically decomposed, I shall often use > the term electrolyzed, derived in the same way, and implying that the body > spoken of is separated into its components under the influence of electricity: > it is analogous in its sense and sound to analyse, which is derived in a > similar manner." > > Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity. Seventh Series, > Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London (1776-1886), Volume > 124, 01 Jan 1834, Page 77, reprinted in: > > Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity, Volume 1, 1849, > freely accessible Gutenberg.org transcript > http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14986/14986-h/14986-h.htm > > Controversy solved? > -- > Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 09:52:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GGqFDm024841; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:52:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GGqEgG024821; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:52:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:52:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Qjee/dNErNjVR+slaWw/IF0l86j+HaniVLc5w0eL01uI7JZiyZlXZjxMc6iGZy00nwL7LVn/KpASkI5BrjnBLwg95S5nudwJKLIhoxLBfGZvl1tYrTS8Ss+ftNKIaN6nkGKQWcp8troFNop6U2g4m/1MLw/RT0wSs5wLEOl0ndY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=YXZ42Xi4CY/UebKCb2Y/QRiuYzjJLebBtDoo/FznBVdP8MGLBErOBVt3/zpjWDjQFjah7DF1/1gh/PVwRz3gzOWyO6erNWH00oM+d/HDeX3cAsxwxTxRrwTk3MNLy7GsY6a4bFUMtXB7CURqrvT8BPUf/mck/ReCLpkS3moNxPg= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703160952g2d8445bte5e8f4f72a3c1115@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:52:06 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "David Thomson" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aether Theory In-Reply-To: <003901c767d4$9b6a4870$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_99984_25064373.1174063926356" References: <45FA34E6.6030606@usfamily.net> <003901c767d4$9b6a4870$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73824 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_99984_25064373.1174063926356 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 16/03/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > I've been following the work of Dale Pond who claims to have replicated > the Dynasphere of John E W Keely, www.svpvril.com . He >claims that the > Dynasphere taps the Strong Force. > Dale Pond is correct that Keely tapped the strong force. In particular, > Keely tapped the unbinding of molecules by using resonance. Since every > atomic binding has a distance between bonds, every molecule has a > frequency, > which when resonated, will cause the bond to break apart. For water, the > resonance needed to break the bond is about 42.8 kHz (going from memory). ( from http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:John_Keely) >From JoesCell2: *Proffessor Keely found that water will explode at a frequency of 42,712.2Hz. ... did it with a Quartz Bowl....Think Quartz and how symmetry applies to magnets because that is how quartz crystals are formed, via symmetry. The 42,712.2Hz was applied to a quartz bowl with distilled water at which time it EXPLODED and disappeared. After this experiment Keely began studing geometric shapes that hold these specialized frequencies which can manipulate matter and the mind. So the power of the mind possibly can be realized by the special shapes that Keely discovered from special frequencies. if you know how this works you wouldnt even need a Joe Cellto make power and after a while not even the special shapes because you could use your voice. i will add that if you want* *your joe cells to work better place it on a 10 or 12 point tesseract made on copper foil. You can get it at lowes home improvement in their building materials section*. Verification of frequency to produce etheric force from water? A recent ( *1965*) possible verification of the *frequency * Keely used to dissociate water into *etheric force* was related to me by a scientist when we were discussing certain aspects of free energy. He wishes to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, but his name is on file. I have no other verification of this experiment, however I believe it merits telling. The scientist, I shall call him Dr. X, was doing experiments with *ultrasonic sound in a column of water*. The object of the experiments was to devise a means of *separating* various densities of materials by *injecting* them into a *column of water* which was *subjected to an ultrasonic standing wave vibration*. The experimental setup is sketched in Figure 3-3 (for BBS considerations a description follows). A *Barium Titanate ultrasonic transducer* was fixed to the bottom of a *quartz tube* which was closed at the bottom and open at the top. Pure water was poured into the tube and the water column was *"tuned"* so that a standing wave was produced at *40,000 CPS (cycles per second)*. The transducer was powered by a *700 Watt power amplifier* which was driven by an *ultrasonic frequency generator*. Because of the large amount of power put into the column of water a certain amount of evaporation took place at a constant rate when the transducer was energized. Therefore, *to maintain a standing wave* in the water column *a feedback device* caused the *frequency* to be *raised* as the water evaporated and the temperature changed. As a test, Dr. X decided to run through the experiment with only water in the tube to ensure that a standing wave was maintained as the water evaporated and the *frequency rose higher and higher*. When the experiment was started everything worked beautifully. Dr. X took periodic readings of his instrumentation and was assured that the *standing wave* was being maintained. Suddenly, with no warning whatever the water *disappeared* from the open quartz tube. He looked up thinking to see the water splashed on the ceiling when to his amazement a clean hole went right through the ceiling. The hole was the same size as the inside of the *quartz tube*. Further investigation showed the hole continued on through the roof also! Dr. X checked his notebook and found the last frequency entry to be *41,300 CPS*. It was shortly after this that the water disappeared. Because of the time interval between the last reading and the disappearing water, the frequency sent to the transducer was higher than the last reading and Dr. X said it could well have been very close to *42,800 CPS*, the Keely *dissociation frequency*. This obviously dangerous event caused Dr. X to dismantle the equipment and try some other approach to his problem. This experiment points the way to the use of our modern technology in conjunction with Keely's laws of dissociation to change matter into energy without the use of radioactive materials or extremely expensive atomic accelerators." Keely's technology is alive and well and already in commercial use, although > they don't use hollow spheres and tuning forks. Everything is done through > perfectly engineered resonance within plasmas. do the companies reference keely in any way? is there a way of finding more info on this? The strong force is very strong, indeed, as Keely found out when his > apparatus exploded on several occasions. In the water dissociation > experiment mentioned above, all the material in the dissociating water's > path was also dematerialized. it is interesting that both john ernst worrell keely and viktor schauberger are connected, many times, by dale pond, and others, when it comes to molecular disassociation, or the implosion/waterhammer/cavitation effect. recommended watching: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561 ------=_Part_99984_25064373.1174063926356 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 16/03/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
> I've been following the work of Dale Pond who claims to have replicated the Dynasphere of John E W Keely, www.svpvril.com . He >claims that the Dynasphere taps the Strong Force.
Dale Pond is correct that Keely tapped the strong force.  In particular,
Keely tapped the unbinding of molecules by using resonance.  Since every
atomic binding has a distance between bonds, every molecule has a frequency,
which when resonated, will cause the bond to break apart.  For water, the
resonance needed to break the bond is about 42.8 kHz (going from memory).

( from http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:John_Keely)

From JoesCell2:

Proffessor Keely found that water will explode at a frequency of 42,712.2 Hz. ... did it with a Quartz Bowl....Think Quartz and how symmetry applies to magnets because that is how quartz crystals are formed, via symmetry. The 42,712.2Hz was applied to a quartz bowl with distilled water at which time it EXPLODED and disappeared. After this experiment Keely began studing geometric shapes that hold these specialized frequencies which can manipulate matter and the mind. So the power of the mind possibly can be realized by the special shapes that Keely discovered from special frequencies. if you know how this works you wouldnt even need a Joe Cell to make power and after a while not even the special shapes because you could use your voice. i will add that if you want
your joe cells to work better place it on a 10 or 12 point tesseract made on copper foil. You can get it at lowes home improvement in their building materials section.
 

Verification of frequency to produce etheric force from water?

A recent (1965) possible verification of the frequency Keely used to dissociate water into etheric force was related to me by a scientist when we were discussing certain aspects of free energy. He wishes to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, but his name is on file. I have no other verification of this experiment, however I believe it merits telling. The scientist, I shall call him Dr. X, was doing experiments with ultrasonic sound in a column of water. The object of the experiments was to devise a means of separating various densities of materials by injecting them into a column of water which was subjected to an ultrasonic standing wave vibration. The experimental setup is sketched in Figure 3-3 (for BBS considerations a description follows). A Barium Titanate ultrasonic transducer was fixed to the bottom of a quartz tube which was closed at the bottom and open at the top. Pure water was poured into the tube and the water column was "tuned" so that a standing wave was produced at 40,000 CPS (cycles per second). The transducer was powered by a 700 Watt power amplifier which was driven by an ultrasonic frequency generator. Because of the large amount of power put into the column of water a certain amount of evaporation took place at a constant rate when the transducer was energized. Therefore, to maintain a standing wave in the water column a feedback device caused the frequency to be raised as the water evaporated and the temperature changed. As a test, Dr. X decided to run through the experiment with only water in the tube to ensure that a standing wave was maintained as the water evaporated and the frequency rose higher and higher. When the experiment was started everything worked beautifully. Dr. X took periodic readings of his instrumentation and was assured that the standing wave was being maintained. Suddenly, with no warning whatever the water disappeared from the open quartz tube. He looked up thinking to see the water splashed on the ceiling when to his amazement a clean hole went right through the ceiling. The hole was the same size as the inside of the quartz tube. Further investigation showed the hole continued on through the roof also! Dr. X checked his notebook and found the last frequency entry to be 41,300 CPS. It was shortly after this that the water disappeared. Because of the time interval between the last reading and the disappearing water, the frequency sent to the transducer was higher than the last reading and Dr. X said it could well have been very close to 42,800 CPS, the Keely dissociation frequency. This obviously dangerous event caused Dr. X to dismantle the equipment and try some other approach to his problem. This experiment points the way to the use of our modern technology in conjunction with Keely's laws of dissociation to change matter into energy without the use of radioactive materials or extremely expensive atomic accelerators."

Keely's technology is alive and well and already in commercial use, although they don't use hollow spheres and tuning forks.  Everything is done through perfectly engineered resonance within plasmas.

do the companies reference keely in any way? is there a way of finding more info on this?

The strong force is very strong, indeed, as Keely found out when his apparatus exploded on several occasions.  In the water dissociation experiment mentioned above, all the material in the dissociating water's path was also dematerialized.  

 it is interesting that both john ernst worrell keely and viktor schauberger are connected, many times, by dale pond, and others, when it comes to molecular disassociation, or the implosion/waterhammer/cavitation effect.

recommended watching:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561
------=_Part_99984_25064373.1174063926356-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 09:55:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GGtiLt026217; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:55:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GGthek026182; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:55:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:55:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FACCAD.4040408@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:58:21 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F95FD7.7010206@ix.netcom.com> <1e7001c76746$ce180200$3800a8c0@zothan> <0cfa01c767e9$f0f11200$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <0cfa01c767e9$f0f11200$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73825 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: So that no confusion remains in any reader's mind. The word electrolyze applies to a process of passing current through an ionic solution. Various chemical reactions are initiated by this process. The title of the paper says that the process was applied to palladium. In this process, deuterium and lithium are added to the palladium, some of the palladium dissolves in the solution, and occasionally conditions are produced that result in excess energy. I could have said that palladium was used as an electrode in an electrolytic cell and was caused to be modified by the process. While this would have satisfied Michel, it is too long for a title. The present title accurately and briefly describes what was done. I hope this discussion can move on to more important issues. Ed Michel Jullian wrote: > It follows that saying "palladium was electrolyzed in D2O+LiOD" is like saying "a blood tester was analyzed in blood", sounds absurd doesn't it? If it's too late to correct your book for such absurdities, could you correct at least the paper so it doesn't disgrace the lenr.org library? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Jullian" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:13 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) > > >>Michel, electrolysis is a process. When I said palladium was >>electrolyzed, I'm saying that palladium was subjected to the process of >>electrolysis. This is a common usage that I don't think is important >>enough to debate. > > > Ed, this is not even open to debate. If it was a common usage among professional electrochemists, which it isn't fortunately, then it would be a common mistake. Believe the man who invented the terms rather than the first ignoramus who "electrolyzed palladium" whoever that was: > > "Many bodies are decomposed directly by the electric current, their elements being set free; these I propose to call electrolytes ([Greek: elektron], and [Greek: lyo], soluo. N. Electrolyte, V. Electrolyze). Water, therefore, is an electrolyte. [...] Then for electro-chemically decomposed, I shall often use the term electrolyzed, derived in the same way, and implying that the body spoken of is separated into its components under the influence of electricity: it is analogous in its sense and sound to analyse, which is derived in a similar manner." > > Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity. Seventh Series, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London (1776-1886), Volume 124, 01 Jan 1834, Page 77, reprinted in: > > Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity, Volume 1, 1849, freely accessible Gutenberg.org transcript > http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14986/14986-h/14986-h.htm > > Controversy solved? > -- > Michel > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 10:20:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GHKBPk026775; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:20:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GHKAtv026759; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:20:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:20:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=yJ//1JBB29YDFK+peJdnGHHP7sGFkhnMfWxuCzXGsRYg6N4dU6bMMhwwQjuq20BlDDao7mn/Bv2666WoXbdLbPrNtmY1hY00ZdAxaVeoLtQixQmwxNzau/RXWCNSp4Th40SXYgFCLDtBBrc5zYYjRmGN08QfdZYxjsbn+G/z+Uk= ; X-YMail-OSG: MIC92roVM1meIcTAv9_7SExrToxIvBU8lzrP2UZgK8DPLwSJE9FomoaV3LpUMIsbYnlhZMv8_9zoW7wJhkKzwhj5pDfZdb5M9eQmBN7.WZUtmNbbK4zpnCNChXP1ZdkNDfNme5WMdOA6uTo- Message-ID: <45FAD1C6.2090101@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:20:06 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73826 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 'Pulling the plug' on OZ Status: O X-Status: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/03/14/1173722523336.html ... and you thought "Quake Wars" was just a game... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 11:09:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GI9HYe030719; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:09:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GI9F8K030704; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:09:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:09:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:08:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone In-reply-to: <0cf401c767e8$3a916830$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73827 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If light was literally a projectile, then it should be literally subject to the laws of mechanics and momentum changes should vary continuously. However, we know empirically that light of a particular wavelength can only bring about discrete changes of momentum. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Well, it does bounce back from the object (e.g. solar sail) it imparted > momentum to, with total momentum being conserved and all. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone > > >> In my natural philosophy, light has an _apparent_ momentum, because the >> nature of light is such that it refuses to be subjected to a mechanical >> force. (I do mean "refuses" and not simply "resists"). >> >> Harry >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> For a projectile what matters is momentum, and light does have momentum, >>> that's what pushes solar sails. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "R.C.Macaulay" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 PM >>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone >>> >>> >>>> Howdy Jones, >>>> >>>> You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. One >>>> must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before launching >>>> into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to Ormus... and >>>> that is a stretch. >>>> >>>> Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", it can >>>> be >>>> taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile force" >>>> qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a socalled >>>> "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better >>>> constructed >>>> railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange beasty >>>> indeed.. Why so ? >>>> Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or impact. >>>> Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the flesh,eyes >>>> and >>>> tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) Zec: 14. >>>> This >>>> description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the projectile >>>> does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. >>>> >>>> You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a new >>>> method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. He does >>>> describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. Reminds me of >>>> the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters in the >>>> pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool thereafter >>>> would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex and only >>>> the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was destroyed >>>> by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex properties >>>> dissappear? >>>> >>>> Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky still >>>> left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " thinkin >>>> drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. >>>> >>>> Richard >>>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 12:41:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GJfHnC029837; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:41:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GJfFWE029821; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:41:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:41:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d6b01c76803$0d86b0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F95FD7.7010206@ix.netcom.com> <1e7001c76746$ce180200$3800a8c0@zothan> <0cfa01c767e9$f0f11200$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FACCAD.4040408@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:41:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <1tItFB.A.1RH.aLv-FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73828 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Ed, How can you persist in this attempt to reivent the terms of = electrochemistry? Whatever happens to the palladium, it is not = 'electro-chemically decomposed' (the meaning of 'electrolyzed'), cf the = Faraday quote. So that no confusion remains in any reader's mind indeed, instead of: "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a = Heavy-Water Electrolyte" the title should have been, as would be obvious to even a first year = student in chemistry: "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of a Heavy-Water Electrolyte = using a Palladium Cathode" but correcting the title would not be enough I am afraid, the very same = erroneous terminology occurs inside the paper. Michel P.S. Will we have to call on independent referees (professional = electrochemists) to solve this controversy? :) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) > So that no confusion remains in any reader's mind. The word = electrolyze=20 > applies to a process of passing current through an ionic solution.=20 > Various chemical reactions are initiated by this process. The title of = > the paper says that the process was applied to palladium. In this=20 > process, deuterium and lithium are added to the palladium, some of the = > palladium dissolves in the solution, and occasionally conditions are=20 > produced that result in excess energy. I could have said that = palladium=20 > was used as an electrode in an electrolytic cell and was caused to be=20 > modified by the process. While this would have satisfied Michel, it is = > too long for a title. The present title accurately and briefly = describes=20 > what was done. I hope this discussion can move on to more important = issues. >=20 > Ed >=20 > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >> It follows that saying "palladium was electrolyzed in D2O+LiOD" is = like saying "a blood tester was analyzed in blood", sounds absurd = doesn't it? If it's too late to correct your book for such absurdities, = could you correct at least the paper so it doesn't disgrace the lenr.org = library? >>=20 >> Michel >>=20 >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Michel Jullian" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:13 PM >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) >>=20 >>=20 >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold = Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) >>=20 >>=20 >>>Michel, electrolysis is a process. When I said palladium was=20 >>>electrolyzed, I'm saying that palladium was subjected to the process = of=20 >>>electrolysis. This is a common usage that I don't think is important=20 >>>enough to debate. >>=20 >>=20 >> Ed, this is not even open to debate. If it was a common usage among = professional electrochemists, which it isn't fortunately, then it would = be a common mistake. Believe the man who invented the terms rather than = the first ignoramus who "electrolyzed palladium" whoever that was: >>=20 >> "Many bodies are decomposed directly by the electric current, their = elements being set free; these I propose to call electrolytes ([Greek: = elektron], and [Greek: lyo], soluo. N. Electrolyte, V. Electrolyze). = Water, therefore, is an electrolyte. [...] Then for electro-chemically = decomposed, I shall often use the term electrolyzed, derived in the same = way, and implying that the body spoken of is separated into its = components under the influence of electricity: it is analogous in its = sense and sound to analyse, which is derived in a similar manner." >>=20 >> Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity. Seventh = Series, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London = (1776-1886), Volume 124, 01 Jan 1834, Page 77, reprinted in: >>=20 >> Faraday, Michael, Experimental Researches in Electricity, Volume 1, = 1849, freely accessible Gutenberg.org transcript >> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14986/14986-h/14986-h.htm=20 >>=20 >> Controversy solved? >> -- >> Michel >>=20 >>=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 13:10:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GKAB0j018995; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:10:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GKA9Zj018983; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:10:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:10:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0d8001c76807$15ac6d70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:09:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73829 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Status: RO X-Status: Sure it is quantized, but this doesn't make it "apparent". Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone >=20 > If light was literally a projectile, then it should be literally = subject > to the laws of mechanics and momentum changes should vary = continuously. > However, we know empirically that light of a particular wavelength > can only bring about discrete changes of momentum. >=20 >=20 > Harry >=20 > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >> Well, it does bounce back from the object (e.g. solar sail) it = imparted >> momentum to, with total momentum being conserved and all. >>=20 >> Michel >>=20 >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:09 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone >>=20 >>=20 >>> In my natural philosophy, light has an _apparent_ momentum, because = the >>> nature of light is such that it refuses to be subjected to a = mechanical >>> force. (I do mean "refuses" and not simply "resists"). >>>=20 >>> Harry >>>=20 >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>=20 >>>> For a projectile what matters is momentum, and light does have = momentum, >>>> that's what pushes solar sails. >>>>=20 >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure >>>>=20 >>>> Michel >>>>=20 >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "R.C.Macaulay" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 PM >>>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> Howdy Jones, >>>>>=20 >>>>> You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. = One >>>>> must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before = launching >>>>> into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to = Ormus... and >>>>> that is a stretch. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", = it can >>>>> be >>>>> taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile = force" >>>>> qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a = socalled >>>>> "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better >>>>> constructed >>>>> railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange = beasty >>>>> indeed.. Why so ? >>>>> Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or = impact. >>>>> Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the = flesh,eyes >>>>> and >>>>> tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) = Zec: 14. >>>>> This >>>>> description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the = projectile >>>>> does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the = flesh. >>>>>=20 >>>>> You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions = a new >>>>> method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. = He does >>>>> describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. = Reminds me of >>>>> the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters = in the >>>>> pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool = thereafter >>>>> would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex = and only >>>>> the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was = destroyed >>>>> by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex = properties >>>>> dissappear? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky = still >>>>> left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " = thinkin >>>>> drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Richard=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 13:11:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GKBLV7008332; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:11:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GKBKrm008300; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:11:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:11:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:11:14 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_7f916e9987abc4f28e2d8d37184fc9a8" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070316201533.30855BFC5C@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73830 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: --=_7f916e9987abc4f28e2d8d37184fc9a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: Jullian Opinions To Michel Jullian, I noticed you recently stated: > It follows that saying "palladium was electrolyzed in > D2O+LiOD" is like saying "a blood tester was analyzed > in blood", sounds absurd doesn't it? If it's too late > to correct your book for such absurdities, could you > correct at least the paper so it doesn't disgrace the > lenr.org library? I scanned through past posts pertaining to the subject thread: " Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer)". I see you have made additional posts since then. I gather from your repeated attempts to draw Ed Storms into a dialogue with you that you have extensive knowledge in the field of electrochemistry, that you wish to put your accumulated experience to good use. I'm definitely not speaking from a humble perspective when I strongly suggest that it is not in anyone's best interest to attempt to educate others in a potentially manipulative manner. To inform an individual that they have in your opinion made an error in their work (such as in the title), but then deliberately not tell them specifically what the so-called error might be, as you initially did, is equivalent to a form of manipulative drama on the high seas. Such dialogue, ironically, focus more of the attention on you and the importance of your opinions rather than on the alleged mistake that needs to be corrected. It seems to me that if your objective had been to achieve resolution of the "mistake," you would have revealed the specifics of said "mistake" up front. What I found interesting was the fact that initially you chose not to do so - repeatedly. Repeatedly, you left it as a big mystery - an unfolding drama. That suggests a very different agenda other than having Ed Storm's best interests in mind. Performing drama of this nature in a public form should only be conducted by an experienced teacher. Indeed, teachers occasionally DO resort to this tactic if they are sure the students participating in the public dialogue will actually learn something valuable. The best teachers, the most honorable ones, have their student's best interests in mind. Others, on the other hand, who self-appoint themselves in the role of a "teacher" who then use this tactic on the targeted "student" are not so much interested in the welfare of their "student" or even in the learning process for that matter. They are more interested in propagating their personal opinions, attaching importance to them. Maybe you ARE a teacher, professionally speaking. I really don't know. Maybe you are even a GOOD teacher. Perhaps certain teachers really DO need the equivalent of an opinionated attention getting EGO in order to teach the good lessons. Nevertheless, a question you might want to ask yourself is: Did Ed Storm ever ask you to assume the role of a teacher for his educational benefit? And whose benefit was the initial exchange really meant for? Now that the incorrect use of terminology, the dirty laundry you attribute to Storm's title is finally out in the open, the ramifications for all to ponder deeply including your suggested corrections, I noticed you are now stating that his book contains "absurdities", that if published as-is, could "...disgrace the lenr.org library." You are entitled to your opinions. With not so many Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_7f916e9987abc4f28e2d8d37184fc9a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: Jullian Opinions

To Michel Jullian,

I noticed you recently stated:

> It follows that saying "palladium was electrolyzed in
> D2O+LiOD" is like saying "a blood tester was analyzed
> in blood", sounds absurd doesn't it? If it's too late
> to correct your book for such absurdities, could you
> correct at least the paper so it doesn't disgrace the
> lenr.org library?

I scanned through past posts pertaining to the subject thread: " Ed Storm's= confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer)".

I see you have made additional posts since then.

I gather from your repeated attempts to draw Ed Storms into a dialogue with= you that you have extensive knowledge in the field of electrochemistry, th= at you wish to put your accumulated experience to good use.

I'm definitely not speaking from a humble perspective when I strongly sugge= st that it is not in anyone's best interest to attempt to educate others in= a potentially manipulative manner. To inform an individual that they have = in your opinion made an error in their work (such as in the title), but the= n deliberately not tell them specifically what the so-called error might be= , as you initially did, is equivalent to a form of manipulative drama on th= e high seas. Such dialogue, ironically, focus more of the attention on you = and the importance of your opinions rather than on the alleged mistake that= needs to be corrected. It seems to me that if your objective had been to a= chieve resolution of the "mistake," you would have revealed the specifics o= f said "mistake" up front. What I found interesting was the fact that initi= ally you chose not to do so - repeatedly. Repeatedly, you left it as a big = mystery - an unfolding drama. That suggests a very different agenda other t= han having Ed Storm's best interests in mind.

Performing drama of this nature in a public form should only be conducted b= y an experienced teacher. Indeed, teachers occasionally DO resort to this t= actic if they are sure the students participating in the public dialogue wi= ll actually learn something valuable. The best teachers, the most honorable= ones, have their student's best interests in mind. Others, on the other ha= nd, who self-appoint themselves in the role of a "teacher" who then use thi= s tactic on the targeted "student" are not so much interested in the welfar= e of their "student" or even in the learning process for that matter. They = are more interested in propagating their personal opinions, attaching impor= tance to them.

Maybe you ARE a teacher, professionally speaking. I really don't know. Mayb= e you are even a GOOD teacher. Perhaps certain teachers really DO need the = equivalent of an opinionated attention getting EGO in order to teach the go= od lessons. Nevertheless, a question you might want to ask yourself is: Did= Ed Storm ever ask you to assume the role of a teacher for his educational = benefit? And whose benefit was the initial exchange really meant for?

Now that the incorrect use of terminology, the dirty laundry you attribute = to Storm's title is finally out in the open, the ramifications for all to p= onder deeply including your suggested corrections, I noticed you are now st= ating that his book contains "absurdities", that if published as-is, could = "...disgrace the lenr.org library."

You are entitled to your opinions.

With not so many Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_7f916e9987abc4f28e2d8d37184fc9a8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 13:15:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2GKFDkd021871; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:15:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2GKFChL021851; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:15:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:15:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070316161300.0362b9d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:15:05 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) In-Reply-To: <0d6b01c76803$0d86b0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F95FD7.7010206@ix.netcom.com> <1e7001c76746$ce180200$3800a8c0@zothan> <0cfa01c767e9$f0f11200$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FACCAD.4040408@ix.netcom.com> <0d6b01c76803$0d86b0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73831 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >How can you persist in this attempt to reivent the terms of >electrochemistry? Whatever happens to the palladium, it is not >'electro-chemically decomposed' (the meaning of 'electrolyzed'), cf >the Faraday quote. Yo, Michel: Don't tell a native speaker how to speak his own language. Words mean whatever we say they mean, and they are used however we use them. Words change over time. Faraday lived a long time ago. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 18:06:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2H15kfI029704; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:05:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2H15hJA029669; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:05:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:05:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:04:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone In-reply-to: <0d8001c76807$15ac6d70$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73832 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok. It would be more accurate to call it "emergent momentum" rather than than "apparent momentum"...but that is as far as I am prepared to go. ;-) Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Sure it is quantized, but this doesn't make it "apparent". > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone > > >> >> If light was literally a projectile, then it should be literally subject >> to the laws of mechanics and momentum changes should vary continuously. >> However, we know empirically that light of a particular wavelength >> can only bring about discrete changes of momentum. >> >> >> Harry >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> Well, it does bounce back from the object (e.g. solar sail) it imparted >>> momentum to, with total momentum being conserved and all. >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Harry Veeder" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:09 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone >>> >>> >>>> In my natural philosophy, light has an _apparent_ momentum, because the >>>> nature of light is such that it refuses to be subjected to a mechanical >>>> force. (I do mean "refuses" and not simply "resists"). >>>> >>>> Harry >>>> >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> >>>>> For a projectile what matters is momentum, and light does have momentum, >>>>> that's what pushes solar sails. >>>>> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure >>>>> >>>>> Michel >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "R.C.Macaulay" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 PM >>>>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Howdy Jones, >>>>>> >>>>>> You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. One >>>>>> must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before launching >>>>>> into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to Ormus... >>>>>> and >>>>>> that is a stretch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", it can >>>>>> be >>>>>> taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile force" >>>>>> qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a socalled >>>>>> "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better >>>>>> constructed >>>>>> railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange beasty >>>>>> indeed.. Why so ? >>>>>> Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or impact. >>>>>> Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the flesh,eyes >>>>>> and >>>>>> tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) Zec: 14. >>>>>> This >>>>>> description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the >>>>>> projectile >>>>>> does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. >>>>>> >>>>>> You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a new >>>>>> method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. He does >>>>>> describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. Reminds me >>>>>> of >>>>>> the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters in the >>>>>> pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool thereafter >>>>>> would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex and >>>>>> only >>>>>> the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was >>>>>> destroyed >>>>>> by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex properties >>>>>> dissappear? >>>>>> >>>>>> Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky still >>>>>> left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " >>>>>> thinkin >>>>>> drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. >>>>>> >>>>>> Richard >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 18:43:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2H1hUEn008177; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:43:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2H1hUYv008158; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:43:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:43:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0dc301c76835$a91b9120$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F95FD7.7010206@ix.netcom.com> <1e7001c76746$ce180200$3800a8c0@zothan> <0cfa01c767e9$f0f11200$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FACCAD.4040408@ix.netcom.com> <0d6b01c76803$0d86b0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070316161300.0362b9d8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 02:43:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <16icVB.A.X_B.Cf0-FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73833 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yo Jed, it's not a matter of telling someone how to speak his native = language. The vocabulary of science is meant to allow accurate = communication between scientists, so that e.g. when one says = "electrolyzed" or "excess heat" it means the same thing to everybody. Now Faraday lived a long time ago, that's true. Words do change over = time, but when they do, traces of such changes usually can be found in = recent dictionaries. Let's pick one at random: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/electrolyze=20 e=B7lec=B7tro=B7lyze (-lktr-lz)=20 tr.v. e=B7lec=B7tro=B7lyzed, e=B7lec=B7tro=B7lyz=B7ing, = e=B7lec=B7tro=B7lyz=B7es=20 To cause to decompose by electrolysis. Short of writing one up yourself, can you find a dictionary where the = definition of 'electrolyze' is so different from the above that it could = even remotely apply to the electrode rather than to the electrolyte? = When you electrolyzed water at school, did you in fact electrolyze = platinum? Does your car drive you? Someone has attacked me, virulently, not on the merits of my = contribution, but on the way I communicated it with the drama and all. I = will reply that all Ed had to do, instead of replying he didn't see what = my problem was, was reach for a dictionary to see what the hell I could = mean, realize his error, and reply gruffly but honestly "right, my = mistake, it's the D2O which is electrolyzed" and there would have been = no drama. That's what I expected him to do, like I would have expected = any scientist, because that's what I would have done in his place. Now should scientists criticize each other over scientific = communications? I think so, and I think CF in particular would be in = better health if there had been less leniency towards each other's = mistakes. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >>How can you persist in this attempt to reivent the terms of=20 >>electrochemistry? Whatever happens to the palladium, it is not=20 >>'electro-chemically decomposed' (the meaning of 'electrolyzed'), cf=20 >>the Faraday quote. >=20 > Yo, Michel: Don't tell a native speaker how to speak his own=20 > language. Words mean whatever we say they mean, and they are used=20 > however we use them. Words change over time. Faraday lived a long time = ago. >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 19:00:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2H20fi7004517; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:00:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2H20YSa004477; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:00:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:00:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0dd001c76838$0af4c860$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20070316201533.30855BFC5C@mail1.mx.core.com> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 03:00:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <3-qaIC.A.sFB.Bv0-FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73834 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack Status: RO X-Status: To Steven Vincent Johnson, Share and enjoy (mask the bottom halves of the letters, and read them in = the local language of Eadrax) Michel "Share and Enjoy" is the company motto of the hugely successful Sirius = Cybernetics Corporation Complaints division, which now covers the major = land masses of three medium sized planets and is the only part of the = Corporation to have shown a consistent profit in recent years. The motto stands --- or rather stood --- in three mile high illuminated = letters near the Complaints Department spaceport on Eadrax. = Unfortunately its weight was such that shortly after it was erected, the = ground beneath the letters caved in and they dropped for nearly half = their length through the offices of many talented young complaints = executives --- now deceased. The protruding upper halves of the letters now appear, in the local = language, to read ``Go stick your head in a pig'', and are no longer = illuminated, except at times of special celebration. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:11 PM Subject: [Vo]:=20 > SUBJECT: Jullian Opinions >=20 > To Michel Jullian, >=20 > I noticed you recently stated: >=20 >> It follows that saying "palladium was electrolyzed in >> D2O+LiOD" is like saying "a blood tester was analyzed >> in blood", sounds absurd doesn't it? If it's too late >> to correct your book for such absurdities, could you >> correct at least the paper so it doesn't disgrace the >> lenr.org library? >=20 > I scanned through past posts pertaining to the subject thread: " Ed = Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael = Shermer)". >=20 > I see you have made additional posts since then. >=20 > I gather from your repeated attempts to draw Ed Storms into a dialogue = with you that you have extensive knowledge in the field of = electrochemistry, that you wish to put your accumulated experience to = good use. >=20 > I'm definitely not speaking from a humble perspective when I strongly = suggest that it is not in anyone's best interest to attempt to educate = others in a potentially manipulative manner. To inform an individual = that they have in your opinion made an error in their work (such as in = the title), but then deliberately not tell them specifically what the = so-called error might be, as you initially did, is equivalent to a form = of manipulative drama on the high seas. Such dialogue, ironically, focus = more of the attention on you and the importance of your opinions rather = than on the alleged mistake that needs to be corrected. It seems to me = that if your objective had been to achieve resolution of the "mistake," = you would have revealed the specifics of said "mistake" up front. What I = found interesting was the fact that initially you chose not to do so - = repeatedly. Repeatedly, you left it as a big mystery - an unfolding = drama. That suggests a very different agenda other than having Ed ! > Storm's best interests in mind. >=20 > Performing drama of this nature in a public form should only be = conducted by an experienced teacher. Indeed, teachers occasionally DO = resort to this tactic if they are sure the students participating in the = public dialogue will actually learn something valuable. The best = teachers, the most honorable ones, have their student's best interests = in mind. Others, on the other hand, who self-appoint themselves in the = role of a "teacher" who then use this tactic on the targeted "student" = are not so much interested in the welfare of their "student" or even in = the learning process for that matter. They are more interested in = propagating their personal opinions, attaching importance to them. >=20 > Maybe you ARE a teacher, professionally speaking. I really don't know. = Maybe you are even a GOOD teacher. Perhaps certain teachers really DO = need the equivalent of an opinionated attention getting EGO in order to = teach the good lessons. Nevertheless, a question you might want to ask = yourself is: Did Ed Storm ever ask you to assume the role of a teacher = for his educational benefit? And whose benefit was the initial exchange = really meant for? >=20 > Now that the incorrect use of terminology, the dirty laundry you = attribute to Storm's title is finally out in the open, the ramifications = for all to ponder deeply including your suggested corrections, I noticed = you are now stating that his book contains "absurdities", that if = published as-is, could "...disgrace the lenr.org library." >=20 > You are entitled to your opinions. >=20 > With not so many Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com >=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 19:39:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2H2dfj7025228; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:39:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2H2deAP025220; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:39:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:39:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=T1sDwq44wM/kEFiH1qnaNNm8nZsAz6Bx2bnuvMIn5mFQ4L/McrQjDVLyPEeLIAC5hnYkGs7SJuGaPMVhs6glk0TNgueQTHx5yQNk+qMpjVCcgXSD4YOQm5pfyAgpvQYbG3XyKTTdASllq51kM+FtNM4O+6ba3bB1G1bTTaa/I2M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MuBM0PB5XErT6bSDcL889ShZISbSd3AQX9coXhDedF44877/OcpJvqIfyNCcGmBP9isGLOYS9WZoEzu3LeE55DGS53RdTcFRBALDgH6S07PmM/e2Rzvhuf/Btb2Gpxjp76uSj1pYOr4tDZLoRiqkQqEq/jgkzZfbze3pH1w/U7c= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:39:39 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone In-Reply-To: <45FAAC70.2070103@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <45FAAC70.2070103@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73835 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/16/07, Jones Beene wrote: > There is also the claim (unsubstantiated) that NASA is already using > polyoxygen, and will be accelerating that use, but that seems unlikely, > as the last shuttle launch still had the foam insulation - and something > as basic as a "new fuel" would leak out (the news, not the diozone) IANARS but I seriously doubt that you can take an engine designed for leaded fuel and just pump in unleaded. I think shuttle's engines, pumps, etc would require some significant rework. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 16 21:50:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2H4ock7022950; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:50:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2H4obZI022929; Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:50:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:50:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070316215305.0ce24f68@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:53:43 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_1358185812==.REL" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73836 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1358185812==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1358185812==.ALT" --=====================_1358185812==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Emacs! The leader in news and information on low energy nuclear reactions March 16, 2007 -- Issue #21 ISSUE #21 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/2007/NET21.htm EDITORIALS AND OPINION 1. From the Editor 2. To the Editor NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS 3. Ice Thaws for Naval Research Lab: LENR Manuscript Accepted; Reproducible Cathode Material Reported 4. Purdue Integrity Panel Completes Research Inquiry 5. Death of Cold Fusion Opponent Albert Cotton Under Investigation 6. 8th International Workshop on Anomalies in Hydrogen- and Deuterium-Loaded Metals 7. The 233rd American Chemical Society National Meeting 8. Melvin Miles Gives Cold Fusion Lecture At University Of La Verne 9. 1989 University of Utah Cold Fusion Press Conference ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES 10. Extraordinary Courage: Report on Some LENR Presentations at the 2007 American Physical Society Meeting 11. Science Cold Fusion Attack Story Fabricated 12. Widom-Larsen Theory Debate 13. PUBLICATIONS 14. SCIENCE AND ENERGY NEWS New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters. ---------- If you have received this announcement from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, or if you would like to unsubscribe, click here http://newenergytimes.com/news/news.htm. --=====================_1358185812==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Emacs!


The leader in news and information on low energy nuclear reactions
March 16, 2007 -- Issue #21


ISSUE #21 is available online at http://newenergytimes.com/news/2007/NET21.htm

 

EDITORIALS AND OPINION
1.   From the Editor
2.   To the Editor
NEWS & ANNOUNCEMENTS
3.   Ice Thaws for Naval Research Lab: LENR Manuscript Accepted; Reproducible Cathode Material Reported
4.   Purdue Integrity Panel Completes Research Inquiry
5.   Death of Cold Fusion Opponent Albert Cotton Under Investigation
6.   8th International Workshop on Anomalies in Hydrogen- and Deuterium-Loaded Metals
7.   The 233rd American Chemical Society National Meeting
8.   Melvin Miles Gives Cold Fusion Lecture At University Of La Verne
9.   1989 University of Utah Cold Fusion Press Conference
ANALYSIS AND PERSPECTIVES
10. Extraordinary Courage: Report on Some LENR Presentations at the 2007 American Physical Society Meeting
11. Science Cold Fusion Attack Story Fabricated
12. Widom-Larsen Theory Debate
13. PUBLICATIONS
14. SCIENCE AND ENERGY NEWS
 


New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution.
 
The New Energy Times (tm) newsletter, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters.



If you have received this announcement from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, or if you would like to unsubscribe, click here http://newenergytimes.com/news/news.htm. --=====================_1358185812==.ALT-- --=====================_1358185812==.REL Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="50f444c7.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20070316215305.0ce24f68@mail.newenergytimes.com.1> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="50f444c7.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAARCABCAJsDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK U1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3 uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD+/iii igAooooAKKTgH3P17fyr89f+Cmf/AAUK+GH/AATL/ZK8c/tPfE7Q77xdNptxY+D/AIafDTR9X03R 9c+KvxY8Rx3z+GvAWmanq0Usel2RsNM1rxb4q1+HSteuPDnw78KeMvFVt4c8Q3Oh23h/WNaFCtiq 1LD0IOpWr1IUqUI2blUqSUIRV+spSSXTuDsk22klq29kurfXTrZM6D9ub/goR+yx/wAE5/hBffGP 9qH4jWfhLS5bXWW8DeBdLSLU/il8W9f0a0Rm8HfDHwUstvd+J9Wubu/0vTpNTuJdI8LeHhqmnav4 y8S+HPDZm1yH+HT9sj/g7k/bU+NeseK/B/7B3wW8L/s3/D21j1E2fxA8Zafpvxi+Pcuk6B4g1PUk 8aNp2rxyfBv4fDWPCA0pPEPgnWfAfxdj8Pa02sxWvxJ1yNbUxfid4r1z9sj/AILSftqah8TPi54u /wCEl+Lfje3kvrPTbXw/r1z4F+FXwZ8MX+sHTvDvwo8MY13StF+G/gzUdT1HQfD2lPr6y+I/iDqz z+JvEvib4nePPEXjvX9iX/gm7+234V8QeC/gL8O08Y6jq/x6uvFlhonga00fx14J0HxrB4F0LU/F OnXWpXvibSdA8GaymseG7O/1vQJJNam0Pw8l1Fr3ibXvDSGXWE/vLw9+jNw1kOUwz7xVxNalj/ZU 8S8lWJo05QpycXCU8M5xqcnK/fqVLRXvSSikkflef+JnDmXZ1huGJZzlmHzfG0JVMDl9eVp4qnFS pSquLWlO0Zpy0SatrJM37r/gpJ/wVZ/aI+KU2ufF/wD4KK/tT/D6OTStD13Vn8D/ABa174J+F/7H 1TUNNj09vDXwy+FOs/CrwZJqr6XqketNpWjaCmvTeHtN1nxGBImiOU9Z+B3/AAUc/wCCt3wr+O3i 7wv8Nf8Agor+0V9n0iTxRpT+Ifj/AOMr741+HJrXw9qi2c0emeC/2kU8f6RpushnsEGlaBoa+I1S Vo/LZVKr9R3v/BFH4g/CP9mnwp4r+I3hbwt4Z+NmntpHxD8WfFr4gfE7x14V0/QEkl1OPwV4G8Er 4Xm1HTodH0bR9E0BvEn/AAl/gPRfH2h+JtU1RV8d6F4W0YPB+Tvxa0v41eG9as/gjaeGfibqvxEO rWrpHp+leOm8Y6/rqSL/AGg//CNrqmuaZqmqHUPD1l/xNtFj1U642mCd9acqFj/rHw64D+j3m+UY nC4nhzIZQwcuSm8V9QxUMTGq4wk1jKiamtJxm4uTaTV3G3N+Tw8W48S8Q47KuF+I4VK2BUsungaU qVLCYWtONB1M1wsFUc6+HVOcIP2ioe1blKnGpFqS/qb/AGbv+Drz4v8AwX8V6f8ACn/goZ8C9H+J 2h2x061vvjj+z9Y3ngvxpptuuhXrLqGv/Cnx1NH4O8faprWuRWv9var4Q8bfCjQNB0eTV5/DXhjx D/ZMVtd/2Vfs1/tSfAD9r34TaD8bP2cPin4Q+L/w21xUht9e8IX5m+w6jJpunarJ4e8TaVfxWGu+ D/F2l6fq2nSa74L8YaRofinw/JqEEXiDRNImLRp/lO/B7/glj8dPiF4J8f8AxJ/aUTxT+yZ4O8LW 3h230HxT+0V4R1P4caV4i1O/vLGGXT9M1P4gHwSdV1BtJ/tCXRNE0Q3LytpbDXpLRdK0RNdj/YI/ bn/aT/4JFftC23x/+AuqW/xJ+Dni3Vx4O+LPgCW71LSfhb+0D4L8NajqLXmmSynTpdU8C+P9BEmq 6t8NvGp0FvEHgDV9S1I3PhvxD8OvE3ifwt46/nzxi+jN4ccTRzrMvCCrgco4kyxVK0uH8Lm+FzDK c4jCKdWOW1alR/2fjpKUeTCxaw/OuSVGnKUqtP8AUuE+P8JLErh7Mswjj8xwVGj9fx8KFaEIzqK8 UsRyrCTu1JvDxnLEwUW5Jq3N/r7/AEor51/ZX/aP+FP7XPwA+Fn7RvwS8QW3iP4ZfFjwpZ+J/D93 bSWL3NmXZtP1Tw94ghsJZ4tL8WeD9a07UvCXizQhO8vh/wAT6Pq+g3eLnTJBH9Fc5PH0PrX+b+Jw 1bB4mvg8VTnRxOFqzo16NRONSlWpSdOpCcWk4yhOMoyS0umj9b6JppppNSTummlJNPs0016hRRRW QgooooAKKKKAEPyjjt/n/Pc0tfz/AN//AMF5fhn4X/4LT+Kf+CP3xN+DsngDyJPBfh34d/tMXfxf 8OJ4d8W/E3x38FPAnxs8MeAvEfw78UeEvCC+E18Xp4l1H4a+EdT0Tx78Qde8U/Eh/BXhvQ/CyyeP mufDPhfif/g4zbw38O/+Czvjv/hjtbn/AIdFfHr4T/A+PTH/AGgjCv7QJ+J/7UXj39mlvFi3z/BF V+FiaJ/whLeNotFMfxEXWF1NfDba7o/2Y69PvHBYxwVSOHaoexhVU20vcniY4WElr8DqvkT3v0tc nnhreabu/wAEm1fuuvR9Ol/6c8DOe5GPr3pFPyhvXJ9+Tx6dfwH9P5xvBH/BYj/go54g/ZB+Kf7b 3ir/AIIxN4J+BXhL9kvTf2u/hp4lX/gov8CvEw+Lfgm/1P4a+JtQsv7J074Yx+L/AAGNK/Z28U/E f49tLr3hiXWpB8K1+F6eGIvGPjjw9FH5/wDEL/g5o/Z48IaF/wAElfFejeBPh/rmhf8ABSFbeb4w XviP9oWz+HR/Yg0PT/if4B+EHjrxj470/wAUfClNT8Z+BPBvxBvPjZoFv4812H4QeBPHA/Z08a6/ 4U8Qz+G5J9b0VrLsY1KVLDylGFb6rNw5ZxWIqR54wbi5JycacmrO0kpWvyux7SFk27XSavdO2iW/ TVJ9tD+ngNnOAcgDg5B569QOn+eor/Lp/wCDqb9vC+/aT/4KLf8ACnPB2vw/8Ky/YXs7/wCFvhaX R9QsJZLj466wvhnxT8a/G9jqWmaRofiLTNU0LWE8EfBu40LW9b8QaL4f1/4Oa14g8NiC48R+II1/ uX/Zv/4KoL+0r/wVM/bI/wCCd/gb4GjVfhv+xv4D0bV/F/7X3hX4mHxr4H1D4qainwyhu/ghrvhj R/h9HofgLxzpeteJ/ivoEmkax8VtZ8Rya38CPiPbHwxHNoXiKLwx/HT/AMFe/wDgkF/wTo+CX7dn xr8Y/thf8Fl0/Zt+In7UHjn4p/tc6L8K4P8AgnV8b/iy/h3wV8cvjF8TdR0iFvHPwq+Ius6Jqi6H rel+JNCaTULbQdc1ubw1P4gm0LQ01yAV9dwJi8Lkme/XsywksZiqOW18TgMFGlUxXLXnGHs8U44d NxeEpzeKjKbjGDppytJK/PjKbrUeWm7pyjzPS0knZq7drSelj4z/AOCQP7VX7OX7AGu/H748ftH+ LPGXizXPF3gfwd4M+Dth4Zs31zXvEHhbU/EXijxH8SYLCTUdYHhGF4fFVh4I1gvqviLgrrRgbXrh 5S/6H+O/+DqHxfp1z4k8R/s+fs9+CdH+HmkTeF/A8tx46+IOnWvx0afxx4d1zUW8S+C/D/2DW9Jk 0bQdS8OamlxrMngT4g+GNAub/wCHg8XxCXx1onhx/wA0P2rP+DfH9pb4M/8ABML9nP8A4KR/B/4g H9pf4dePvgH8O/2hvjp8M9A+Gsvgnx3+zv4D+LPww8FfEyXxBYAeLPG83xl+HngZ9W1CH4keItIT wM3gCCwg+JQ+H58HzfEbxB8OPqRv+DWgp/wVH/4dpp+3Tvc/sCQftyj4zD9mQ4BH7RI+ALfDI/Dj /hoQEguP+EsPjM+PAVjx4f8A+EZDEa9X7PifFHIM0/fcQYyWeV5vEOUMweYurPCQlFUsLVUbw9sm o006i5PZRik3HQ/F8d4KcPZ3xXDjPPYTzHPMLhY5dl1aE5YKOAwFDEV8Th4wjhZQcql8RLmqcyc5 fEmfC2q/8F5P2qvD37VniX9oXSPEWhftB2xh8RWfgHRf2gPh3Y6FaeFrPxRc6PqcttH4d+F3jPQd TiTRJdKfRfD9oPHuteHYNB1XWfEEfh3R/EuvTNbct8Tf+DiP/gqf46t9ZtNH+OVh8KNC1y1tbSbQ /hj8Pfhv4fGnDbD9rl0rxLqPhXWfiNpbambQyyMvjjeSSUfyPLRcbxN+wH/wTf8AGPxP/ZO+Cv7H f/BW62/at+JH7Sf7WfwK/Zv13w2f2Cfjh8CB8MPA3xg8STeGdR+NLa38TPF+maF46fwTrF74e0n/ AIVxBreja94lXxJHJb6/pMGhTSL+lMn/AAbifsNP+3Mf+Cag/wCC1O39tjiL/hSg/wCCcfxgJ2H4 Qf8AC/zj4jn45f8ACox/xalf+Ey48dA8Hw+M+J86FWGY+JOTYjDU6s6uHg6mDjQweWxwGJeDwVOl K6jQdbCuXKm5NV23UcnzJwge9hfCjgTB42hjaHCWSVMww+GjF5lHLcLHGT5eVKWJrqKqYmaaT5qy 9o9Xe7Z/Nd8YP2n/ANo79oW+tdb+Nfxt+JfxXvrEyxadd/EXxt4k8aHRrJnN7e2OlS+I9V1c6bp5 e88xtK0zbC3Xyw6+XJm3nxw8R6h8LfDvwftLm1sfCHhXV9T8Sw6Zbi+t11LxTrDlNV8ZagWZ1m1h 9Gi8O6BvVCYvD/hXR0QJJ/bc2ufvX8Lf+CA/wKuvgT/wUE/aR/aQ/wCCj4/Zr+Cn/BP/APb1+M/7 Dnjfxz/wyB4s+L48Rv8ADDxh8M/Anhz4nHw34B+L6eKtGfxz4u+KegaSPBOlaL44HhpcXF34omgM 9zo3Ca7/AMEof+CV9vpP7LPjDwL/AMF9P2fvF/gP9oz49J8EPEGr6n+zmngHx18CNDu/A3xk1Cw+ KPxT+Cvi39oiH4v+E/AWq/Fj4deC/hfceMPiZ4e+HfgLwx4e+KWi/FDxJ47X4bxxT696OXeMGXZN LD/UMxdKu8KqOIk6WOxFNaxbWB5owWHr3lurwurJ73+vp8P4SNNYeGXYKFHmVWCjGnh2p0EuWb5V ZtzS5W7S0jqra/sn/wAGcH7cXiO08afHX9gLxlrv2rwxruhX/wC0V8H7S+vtOt08NeIdHvvC/hn4 reGtNjvnGuai3jbTvEHhfxroWiaSjaJoy+CPiR4iWJJdd1qd/wDQBUAADGOTxnPJJJ/Pk1/ndf8A BLf/AIILftd/sTf8FbfHfjzx5+0XpHwC+C37DHxg+Bdt4G/aI8S/CHxBZeBP237T9pfULHwP4a+D nwrb4opoXw3h1rx34A8beIfgl8S9T0Dx18RfE3wW/aA8f+Dvh38Mbbx/4m1nRfHtn/Qb/wAFbf8A gtn+1d/wSl8Sax4q8W/8ExI/id+ydP4+8F/DH4YftSL+2h4B8F/8LJ8a+J/hjN8S9V8Pt8E9M+Ev xC+JXg5vD8vhn4i+HDquuBtD1dPA8muQ3SDX9E0WX8T46zDLeJuJ55hknJbMaUXUjOP1RV8TRpwh XxPJiXD3q6Uak1zJyqSm2ueWvuYWNWlh4xrJ3p+6npK0NElo27RbcbvdRVtEf0c+vB/Tn9f54o5y OPqfSv5w/iZ/wWy/at/Zy+Jn/BPD4Ofte/8ABMFf2c/iZ/wUA/a5179nHQvDR/bT+HPxZPgHwLpO u/st+GNO+NQ1X4Y/CfX9B8Wyavrf7QXifSk+GlzrPgjXYV+F3nHXGj8eaS+h73/BH3/g4N+Bf/BU jwt+0leePPA3h39j7xn+zP4fh+JvjDw541+OfhDxb4a1H4EHT7p/EPxbsPGer6P8J9X0zQfhZqul 6jpXxn1XV/BNv4G+H0HiP4Za5cfEK5bxw+i+H/jFg8TKFepCn7WGHajVlTlTqQinKnC/NByUoOdW nHmTavKOtnc3c4JpXs30aaekU3v5P9N9F/Q9kZA9en4UAAcCv5KvhV/wdK+F/jR+yP8A8FMf2wfB H7FGvW/gj9gHXv2YLfwh4V8U/Hmw0vxF8a/Cv7THxx8TfCTw5r3iQ6V8JfEWlfBnWvCej6Dp/i7x B4V0ST4y251fUpvCkPicLpJ8R3f2x8BP+CsP7dHxE/Zf+Mv7Znxr/wCCUR/Z9/Zt8GfsG+P/ANt/ 4OfEk/t0/CH4uP8AG+Tw54B0T4n/AA8+FsXg3wl8O7bxv8PG+KHw8v8AVvEK+M9f8PXA8IvpP9ha 94YfXdUgtwpYatH4oOPvKNpNRfO+R8tm73tOL0vo+zBTg+vS+z277bb6/wCZ+/oz3OffpRX8xX7M X/Bab/gqv+2P8E/BH7Rv7OH/AAQgHxL+CfxFbxK3g/xxD/wVF/Zx8LNrI8KeL/EPgfxAqeG/H/wo 8IeLNOOl+KfDWvaUI9b0TSJJRp5mjMkUsTyf0VfCnxP438VfC74beJ/iX8PZ/hL8RvEngDwdr/j/ AOFb+JrD4it8M/GuseHdO1HxV8P2+IHhu3Hh/wAcHwbrlzfeHT4v0RY9K8SHTv7YsY4ra8jjVVKF SjJxqKMZJ2aU4SaasmpKEpWaut7bNbocXzW6XSeqa3t3Xnf01P49v2uf+Dez4of8FFP+CyX/AAUl +LH7RPgXXfhz+yr8bv2avh9B+yr+1J4X8c/DnWNV8JftL+CPhl+yX4J0vUb/AOD9h8QoPGXibQ4Y vBnxe8I+KPDvjvQNB8P694aj14eGPE/gvxbrXw/+ImjfFvwQ/wCCGn/BW7wL/wAE+P8Agu58BPjD 8LE+KX7RH7YPj39iHUPg74zT48/C/wASf8NN638Hv2sPGvxL+NPxPbxv48+IOha3pR1vStXTxz/b HxxT4f8AxA8Rpq7OfDp8V+d4fj/0JSTkDHBzk/QdPx/pQDkn04wfXP8Ah3ro/tXFLC/UfaN0FSpY ZRab5YU6sMRHlk2+W84xcre7Jra4uRPXqlJu2l+bTVd1eyvrZ63Vj+Q3/gjF/wAEo5fhOvjz4U/t Qf8ABFc/smj4o/sD+K/2Yf2gf2rX/wCCjf8Awvdv2mF8cH4X+G/i54K/4Uh8PPiPrB+DB+NI0zxD 8TP+Eh8D63Cvw8PhseFfDOv6PJr8LzfBP/BN/wD4NZ/ip4c/Z4/4Ke+Bv28Pgz8BtY+OfxG8Bah8 EP2DPHWp/E3xB4g0Twh4y8N2nivX7L9ofTZPh9DcT+Bvh141+Ith8EpvD2s63oEHx8T4feCviV8P fF/w38L+EPHuv+BfiH/fRk5xjj1z/Sg8ZOe3A9Pf3/HPTgdc3UzfF1alWq6k1Ofsef8AeV5XlQ5H CSdWrOTta1uZwSk4qKjZB7ONkrJ6WVrbdrRsvwu+t2fzTf8ABs9/wSr+L3/BND9lX4uX37Unw80L 4c/tO/tDfFlNb8RaHofxEj8calonwa+G+if8I38KfCPig+FNc1z4a2etab4p8TfFvxtE/gbVfEiy +G/iP4VTxZ4mk8Q6P/wivgb5y/4KSf8ABXX4NT/tQ+KvAfwJ/wCDgaT/AIJ/t8GYtc+C3xY+BC/8 Eo/F/wC1g8fxr+GPj/x5o/xD8Up8TfFvw8jQrIf7K8Gtovh+bWfDA/4QUeI/D+uXP/CSXEr/ANcf ygEAnLAkEjPTJ9McfmOM8kZ/zSv+DgP9iDxL+yz/AMFWfFXxk+H2jeD9K+Hv7amk/wDC3tFk8UaF 4ef4fQeM7eTw3pPxvsNSHiuXX11jxRL8RBpnxS8Stpeg/wBkInxU0JJFE0cyJ+l+E2R5L4h+IODy fijH18sjnSqRp1sDHAe7UXJzU4QzHC4zDKKw8ZQoL2akqqpqM01c8jO8f/ZGU4jG0oqf1SCfLJuK aVr3lF6PVXeiV03pe3qnxN/4OL9O/ZQ+C/8AwQqj/YR+K7/Gm/8A2Y/2P7b4I/8ABQr9l3WPD/xP 8DeCfFDR/CD9kzw3p/hK91/xb4M0rw/J4+8OeJvAvxLHwz+Mvwy/4TiT4f6zZaol0viT4b+OfFfg H4iffv8Aw/M/4JdD/gvcf20R+0xOv7NY/wCCRH/DMB+Ip+CX7RH/ACXH/hsv/haR8JjwcfhGvjjZ /wAIJjVT4vPhoeC1ZToZ8Q/28BpJ/lm+G2r6L+xH+1heeKv2mfhb4q8YaKuk2uqfDv4e6P8AtCeL PhVeWul674q0fW/D98vxG+FPw9UXp0LTPDt3pK6QD8JdB0Lx2+la8+haFJ4Lm8Op9bfFP/goF/wS 4+GHxT1PWP2FP2E/G3iXxB4p8PeJ/DV/qX7RXiD4X/EfwdZ+NtQ03U9I0n4leG9H+LXw9/aG8Y6n /Y+p6o2vk6p8WfAPh7xGqhfiH8OZDFo8ug/uPFH0a8i4exuCw1PMc+zB4+WO9jWj/YHK505U+SlV cMyniqLtNRVaeXLnSnOnh5qMmvgZeIeOnh4YvKskp5xhq+D9th54XHRpRdWk5Xw85VowoxulpWc3 Bu8W48t5fUf7UH/BSTwz4o+KH/BOXxb8Wf8AgvhP/wAFGfhn8Cf+Cm/7I3x/+IXwoP8AwSuv/wBk eL4XeCvhh4l8Q3/i348r8QfCfgVdY8dnwdosmo+F0+GGgxazrXiNPGza7ouh6tceG7YD9J/EP/By n+y98df2v/23v2QfjB8cfjRoP/BOv4x+GfCGpfsq/t0fst6f8cfgd8fv2c/EHh/4EfDTVfH+mtZ+ CvCWg/HbUfDZ+NPh3xrrnhrxFJ4D8Raro/iOTVPCfxL8L/FX9mHx3IPhNyb/ALOf/BN//hcv7OHx R+On7OeteDPHwufC3wg0Pw38P9B+CHgPwNrt74i1/UtO8QfFv47eEPgVqOhnUl8I6f4lv9Ybxgng P4Uf23onhwrrnhiXw7o+iQ6F45+1b8Q/+CE/w11b4eeJfiL+xp8ZdZ+FPi/wfqGleEvFnwu8Gp8L /hx8VPA2l3uqalp2r61b+Hfip8KvifqXxJYzR20GueMvCWkeKJtF8R6aPiVrUIt7bSNF+Xr+CuRY XHUMuxkOMHVhWxWGccFl2ExVN3nL6vSo41Qo4fE4uVaNOn++WFpxc5RcqkIa/mmX/SVyzN6sMLlP D9bFY6Wb4rIcRgnjsBTrQzDBe1q16OCpvFOeYezw+HxFRLCqc5xivcjOenyX+yl+1P8A8E3PEX/B J/8A4KZ/8E1/2pv+CnPiTwl4z/aZ/wCCifjH4teFv2q/FH7Ln7Tnxi8V/GPwD4c8Zfsw+NND+P3i PwZpWk6jrWn+JvjdqvwV1+bW/Cnjv4oL8QfDmt+IbnXfER1qYRf25u/8F2f+Cov7LX7Wn/BJf9nX 9lnwp/wUIm/4KE/tbfDv9rnR/ih8S/ix/wAMk/EX9lAeLPAqeDf2mNO03X28Dat8OfD/AMNtEPg3 TviL8Pvhuul+HfEdxrXiB9PbxXNbM8uvLb5/xg/4N+Pgz8UfgH8QP2rv2BvilD8ffhv411D4i+Lv hr4d8NtfaNpfwV8BaCzeJfD/AIS8XX/xA19/GPi3xZq3hKSbRtc1bWdI8PT+GvEWm6XBc+Hnt/ES +IPD/wDPv8cP2ItU+B/wP+EXxn1z4p/D7VZ/i5DLfR/DDTtQsZPiJ4Usk1/xtpltqviDw40g1UaR rGl+ENP13RNb/sb+xZtH8T6TFvLbWnjCeDWWZ/XceHsbia0sPiIUswy7EfVMvzXAZlHD1JUaThjM Fg5KEY05vFQpVnQqVYS5K9SXsG/1vD+IvD1ephMDPFRp5jjZxng8PL2jnXXtatOpQcI87VbDujrT bvTUX7Tex/Td+y5/wUS+Hf7Zn7D/APwbsfsN6X8Stc+L37cv7NX/AAVL/ZK8VfEz4R6D8GvHttfe CP2a/wBm/wAffHrwv4N1268TaN8ONF+GWqaN8L/2en+E914j1vRPEOveIIfD+nax4r+IcstxpHxA 1y2/oY/4OY/2Ef2rP+ChX7Bvwj+DP7IvwuPxd+JPhr9rjwJ8T9b8Mf8ACY/DbwA1l4J0H4P/AB68 Manrw1P4n+LPBWiMqa74z8N6UulWuutrjx6lHLHG9pBrLp/PV/waF/sEa34w/aP+Jv7dvjzw/aP4 O+BvhO4+Gfwivrm1V5L34sfE/TtN1LxD4i8P6lpespLpGqeDPg3ejRtf0fWdC/4nnh/46aVKHVY5 g/8AomEgHaOGbnp1x/8AW/rX47x9kWB4I4iwmS4DFSx2JyqnRq5pUxsIe5mmJVOrWwUFTl71KglT h8Sc+ecW7xufdYPERxtGpU5bKUmlyr7CSSctGruze7tpfy/m+/4LO/sI/tYftbft5/8ABD34y/AH 4WSeP/hp+xv+1vd/E39o3xI3jj4beFD8PfBVz8W/2R/FcfiE6X408W+Hda8XKNI+FfjbUm0vwHon iTXN2jmBtGEuraHDq34O/sH/APBov4m+NH7LuhQft4weO/2Nf2k/CH7XWv6hry+DPE3wu+MsPxd/ Y8v/AAF8J3PhDT28LfETxt4F+HvjyLx5ZfEj/hX3xOlbWvEHhsalrKfEf4W/EbQJfh6PDH+hLRXx +GzPGYJTWDqvDOdud07pzScZKMtfejeKdnfWz3SZ1OnBvVX8nrraKutL3skk76LQ/gU0b/ghB+3L 8Kv2S/8Ag4h/Zt+Dv7LraR4W/aq+O37Jg/4J/wDg4/G34Q3Q8c/Bf4HftofErx3EB4j8U/FzVtY8 MDwR8EtR8Garn42a54f8VeIJGa1i/t7xQl4lfXP/AAS1/wCCZPjv9nX4X/tGeEfib/wQMT4WfEnx N/wTO+LXwC8ffFT/AIelaV8QY/27PG+r6B4E0jxd+z+fBOjfEHWtC/ZaH7UeteHr3xEnxP0GSPQP gsulw6HB4hVWijk/syopVcyxVanVp1Z8yrVIVJvmmm5xpwpJu00pXhCKfMpO+qaGoRTTSs1dLRaJ ttpaab9D/OW/ae/4Ik/Hb4ofBHxv4D/Zv/4Nk3/ZY+M+sReGT4I+Pp/4LL+Dfji3w/TTPFvhrWPE SN8MfHvxT0Lwl4s/t/wnpniHwUW1rWhJ4fm8RnxJoDyPoWjg/wByX7AXwx8dfA/9hD9in4LfE/SZ /DXxK+EP7JP7OHww+IfhyKSTX4/D/jnwF8HfBvhXxZoia34c1bVtA1VdK1/StQsBf6Lqd/pd0Lfz rG6mtmjc/a5APBoqa2YV69OFOrNuNOTlFynOcuZqKfvVZTsvdTUVaKd2lqxKNtU3dpXut7eWmv4h RRRXEWFFFFABzk8/Qelfl5/wVh/4JvfDv/gpr+yf4u+Cnii3stP+JnhuO78YfATx7Lf3+if8IX8U 7OxYaVFr2qaZBq+oTfDzxK2dC+IeivouvgeHr+PxP4Z0MfEvwb8PfEnh79Q6K3wWMxmWY7B5jl+I nhcVga0K9CrTS5o1Kcoyi15Jx21Ur8rTi7EVKcKtOdOpFSjNcsk9mvNddj/Oi/4Ju/Ajxd+zr+0J q/wh/aI0S++M3xA+Cfh//hG/iN8EfFPwV0/WPiD8DPFvj+71GTW49P8AiDqOsazrXiXwfqulLqku gapGyfCX4iaB4r034jfDaUeGvHXh3xB48/QLx7/wTy+A37QXxni8W/Cj9lbQPgp4l8RN4h0TxRpJ vtK0Cx/4R+KfSV07X/DPg1jP4X8O6fcaQ2naHr2k+CtAfSdI8Rt4rhBnmMfiPxH/AFC/tSfsX/Db 9qDTv7ZbWPE/wg+MunaZZ6L4U+PfwwfQtL+I/hrR9O1OfU4/D2qvrWi694Y8feBJn1PX1l8C+PdA 8R+H4H8Rapr/AIXTwz4yXRPG+hfyJftyf8Ezf+CznwR8Tza98PtK0X9sX4OW8Grat478YfB7xF/Z fxu8Q+HNKu47/UtP1X4b+ORrfjXw9rfjPStU1Xwb4Y8P/BGb4/a4mg20kfizX7kLosD/ANz8AeMX DfHea5Xi+IeIMNwNxVl2WRw1HM82jjq+VZhmLaj9aUaValSw7nLlfsMRUw0YycadOVZJSj/nX44f R38a844trZhwBxTKhwvmvJ/auGw1eGU5hCjDFVsS6VH+z8EoKcoV3h3iatLEVqkbzxCqNyZ9F+Bf +CV3xI0rxL/Z3xznsbDX7RPsp1/R9W0TxddP8PfDFlBpNh4gvdU1H4gaLqx0iUXMMWiWGpeAfEWu AXUaeJE0LboPl/MX7bf7Bvwi8SfCzXPh38Qfj9ca38NbbX38ReF/irp/gbWNU034aeN9T0bUtS8Q aVp7af4rl8GahO/hLw5pT+IdJg1/wNJrhk8IN/wj8qaFoZP5Dyaf+2b8DILLx/Fqv7Wn7Daxy3ni fwn4K/aK8FeHdB8J2/i3Sjr+oyWOleDfijq3gXU9Yj11NRbRfEWr6J8JtZbXND8TeM/DniLw7rvh bXfEUM1fwr4J/a0/aC8IReBfiB+zH8aP2kPhx4t8d3PiXxd8ev2J9L+MHiLWtZRJfEWo+IIte8N+ FvA3xY+EeknUtQ8QaVb+GtEt/hJ8KZJtY8LaVFPKEeXxC36jxPw3xS8TkXEeO4uyDivIcH9RlUzf LM0y3KMuwdSjywoe3hLHYl1pwxMovD1ak6rpzr88uVJ0z8tX0dM+o8T4PG8NcV5nkWdUK+XYmpPF YvEZjxJleLoYihia08HCpgsJlGNhyU8TTxVN8zxGDfLOK5/ep/8ABEn4/wDiL9iH/goj4R+G+pa9 4i+InwN+KOh+MPC+taP4Fn0nxZoM9vrMavYfEnxNpMfi210fwNpHhqy8IWes/ETXPGBjm8B/DzTt a8Q+IdDihjWWH3n9rH9j+z/4Kgf8FJ/BfhT9h/4B6L4Z+EXjbQ/Dnhvz/C/jnw7daT4U0rw74k1C w+IPxm8f+GvD3jDX0+H3hDwfo8lr4RstA0Obw/oMKaR4K0Pwp4d1zxP4g0LwL4h+wP2af+Dbf9rD 9o/QvCXhP46eANF/Zb+C3gxtRtvBHiv4v/FTxX8a/wBoKx8L+Ire38dEeB/hT8M/Ffgv4c+B9J1n xXqGvJ4h8JeNdd8Oa94Y1zxP4s1uXwJrev8Ama/rv9qf7Gn7C/7PX7Cnw3sPh18CvB8WmSy6R4d0 /wAYeONZey1Dx98Rb7w9ZGw0zV/GOvQ6bo8LPEs+o/2F4Q0HStC+HvgWDUJvDfw38J+CvCkdvoNv +Z+Ivib4a8EZlPM+Ecd/rFxbHJVlWFo4fHLMMkwtXESq8+PzfMKEcJhcdiowxN6ODwVLExpYmjKN fEUUqfP/AHFlPBWf5rnOV5+4f2bXwlKOGzTGY/L8LTxmZ03CN8ZgVgsXNYTE1eWPtI1ORJVIp05S pKEOg/Y0/ZQ+F37Ev7Onw0/Zr+Den3On+Cvhn4ctdHs5b+8m1HWdX1U3EuqeIPEGtalOIjLrPiLW dQv9bvYYorPRIJ9Se30DRNH0C3ttIh+tBzyRg/Tn/OO3bpRnOMcg559PwppIGGydo4xgnJPH1PJH Y+tfwpj8Zi8yxmJx+NqzxWKxmIdetUm+ac6k5c0pylJtuXM3Ju/ZJI/f8LhqWEw9LD0laNONrttu Tdt3a7bfdtvS7H0UUVznQFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUYB6iiigDLuIYWMO6KNsuxO5FOSC QCcjqAAB7AelSRwwphliiVgxwVjVSPl9QAaKK9GX+7r/AAT/APbD5yn/AMjmr/19X/ppGhRRRXmv b5x/NH0Mdvu/9JiFFFFMoKKKKACiiigAooooA//Z --=====================_1358185812==.REL-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 00:07:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2H77IgQ010106; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 00:07:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2H77G6Q010062; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 00:07:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 00:07:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=JYqKRRS148ijTk524v23f5fbZy7z/3xraf8Rb85XQMAGlQ+enWSJq8DbnGHof6TS; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200736177639121@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:06:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94072a714dfe61bcb36039fb25a7d2906e6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.11 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73837 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of positive charges surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth". Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing? http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html O +1 O -3 O +1 O +1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 (putative earth charge) Have fun. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of positive charges
surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth".
 
Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing?
 
 
 
 
                                   O +1
 
                                   O  -3
 
                            O +1         O +1
 
 
O -1   O -1    O -1     O -1      O -1     O -1    O -1  O -1 (putative earth charge)
 
 
Have fun.    :-)
 
Fred
 
                
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 01:42:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2H8gY0Y015764; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:42:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2H8gR1d015489; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:42:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:42:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Zachary Jones Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:43:30 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73838 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Funny that ORMUS comes up here - a nice emergence. I worked with Barry a while ago; even pitched the ozonation tech he is connected with at a DOE shindig in 2001. I have a giant poster session in a closet somewheres. Seems like an age ago. Even back then they were pretty hush-hush about the exact nature of the tech. If we reminisced long enough, and I dug deep enough, I could probably turn up notes or such from my conversations with him. Intuition tells me, though, that not enough info was named to reproduce a mechanism (why, anyway? if there's value here then, all parties interested in the best for things, should be able to cooperate) They were on the down-low about it because it had produced the first ORMUS-like material, but because of a lack of controls had also poisoned one of the inventors. Barry's bio talks about it a bit, here: http://www.subtleenergies.com/ORMUS/tw/ barrybio.htm (maybe this is not news, here) These are definitely the wilds of new science. People are being affected in dramatic ways, and none of it is turning into formatted science, yet. C.F. this statement: "We believe that our ozone generator is producing significant amounts of O6 or diozone." I love this community, and statements like this drive me nuts. If quantities of O6 are getting produced, and it's such a unique and interesting substance, then there are ways to make happen known- reliable test for O6 levels. Zak On Mar 16, 2007, at 6:03 AM, R.C.Macaulay wrote: > Howdy Jones, > > You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the > mind. One must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety > belt before launching into one of your posts that can range > from rail guns to Ormus... and that is a stretch. > > Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", > it can be taken to the next step and think of light having > "projectile force" qualities. A rail gun projectile would not > necessarily require a socalled "mass" ( I have always been abhorred > by the term mass). A better constructed railgun would fire a " > projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange beasty indeed.. Why so ? > Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or > impact. Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where > the flesh,eyes and tongue will rot while they are still standing > ( bones remain) Zec: 14. This description seeems to indicate a type > of a ray gun, however, the projectile does not knock the person off > their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. > > You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a > new method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the > process. He does describe the healing qualities of vortex induced > ormus water. Reminds me of the account of the angel that would > "stir" or "trouble" the waters in the pool. Whoever would be the > first sick person to enter the pool thereafter would be healed. If > the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex and only the first > person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was destroyed by > entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex properties > dissappear? > > Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky > still left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some > that " thinkin drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth > was flat. > > Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 05:06:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HC5Zh6004133; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:05:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HC5WNv004116; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:05:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:05:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0fb501c7688c$8da046f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:05:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73839 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Status: RO X-Status: Globally attractive or repulsive ? But again, this doesn't take into = account the fact that charges flow freely on the Earth surface. Could = you find no applet where charges can move freely on the surface of = conductors? Surely there must exist one. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of positive = charges > surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 = megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth". >=20 > Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing? >=20 > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html >=20 >=20 >=20 > O +1 >=20 > O -3 >=20 > O +1 O +1 >=20 >=20 > O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 = (putative earth charge) >=20 >=20 > Have fun. :-) >=20 > Fred >=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 05:35:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HCZdnD015476; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:35:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HCZcDg015454; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:35:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:35:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=r4b+/eGO4LS6ExMXsZyd+byFh4Y0a1aSxvWuYxj8zEL1iiuk4pvDLQD/eCKlj6eK; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220073617123522751@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:35:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e4f115ea82d0f8fa5b79560208e27ff7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.219 Resent-Message-ID: <_b34dB.A.YxD.ZC--FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73841 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You assume that all charges flow freely. The Electron Affinity for many molecules-materials in the earth-earth surface, buildings etc, ranges up to several electron volts. Fred > > [Original Message] > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Date: 3/17/2007 6:06:03 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > > Globally attractive or repulsive ? But again, this doesn't take into account the fact that charges flow freely on the Earth surface. Could you find no applet where charges can move freely on the surface of conductors? Surely there must exist one. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > > > > This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of positive charges > > surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth". > > > > Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing? > > > > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > > > > > > > > O +1 > > > > O -3 > > > > O +1 O +1 > > > > > > O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 (putative earth charge) > > > > > > Have fun. :-) > > > > Fred > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 05:49:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HCnVLs012382; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:49:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HCnU4n012373; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:49:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:49:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0fc701c76892$b358e590$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220073617123522751@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:49:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73842 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Right, they don't move quite freely, but nearly. Many people's lives = depend on Earth being a pretty bad insulator. Why use a globally neutral device BTW, rather than a net negative = charge? Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:35 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > You assume that all charges flow freely. The Electron Affinity for = many > molecules-materials > in the earth-earth surface, buildings etc, ranges up to several = electron > volts. >=20 > Fred >> >> [Original Message] >> From: Michel Jullian >> To: >> Date: 3/17/2007 6:06:03 AM >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> Globally attractive or repulsive ? But again, this doesn't take into > account the fact that charges flow freely on the Earth surface. Could = you > find no applet where charges can move freely on the surface of = conductors? > Surely there must exist one. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 AM >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> > This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of = positive > charges >> > surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 > megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth". >> >=20 >> > Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing? >> >=20 >> > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > O +1 >> >=20 >> > O -3 >> >=20 >> > O +1 O +1 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 = (putative > earth charge) >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Have fun. :-) >> >=20 >> > Fred >> >=20 >> > >=20 >=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 06:00:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HD0JaR015004; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:00:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HD0I7t014996; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:00:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:00:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mxr8Gt+hc2p6W7Qteu49AXoulvyLG4X8LHcALUtvdAZZt5HZu4Q0nT6jn739Xmv8; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200736171307215@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:00:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407768bdd19018be6b9b39f7fbf3055106350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.29 Resent-Message-ID: <016gV.A.MqD.iZ--FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73843 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some do, some don't. A net negative charge derived from the earth will leave a correponding image charge. Dipole-Multipole configuations exert a a net force in non-uniform electric fields such as the "fair weather Field" that exists between the earth and the ionosphere. Fred > > [Original Message] > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Date: 3/17/2007 6:50:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > > Right, they don't move quite freely, but nearly. Many people's lives depend on Earth being a pretty bad insulator. > > Why use a globally neutral device BTW, rather than a net negative charge? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:35 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > > > > You assume that all charges flow freely. The Electron Affinity for many > > molecules-materials > > in the earth-earth surface, buildings etc, ranges up to several electron > > volts. > > > > Fred > >> > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Michel Jullian > >> To: > >> Date: 3/17/2007 6:06:03 AM > >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > >> > >> Globally attractive or repulsive ? But again, this doesn't take into > > account the fact that charges flow freely on the Earth surface. Could you > > find no applet where charges can move freely on the surface of conductors? > > Surely there must exist one. > >> > >> Michel > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Frederick Sparber" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 AM > >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > >> > >> > >> > This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of positive > > charges > >> > surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 > > megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth". > >> > > >> > Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing? > >> > > >> > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > O +1 > >> > > >> > O -3 > >> > > >> > O +1 O +1 > >> > > >> > > >> > O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 (putative > > earth charge) > >> > > >> > > >> > Have fun. :-) > >> > > >> > Fred > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 06:17:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HDH1Dx018597; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:17:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HDGx66018576; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:16:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:16:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0fd401c76896$8ae38c60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-2200736171307215@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:16:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <5AL9RB.A.IiE.Lp--FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73844 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > Some do, some don't. Well, ok :) >=20 > A net negative charge derived from the earth will leave a correponding > image charge. I am not sure "image charge" is the correct term here (my understanding = is that image charge results precisely from the charge mobility we were = discussing) but indeed it will remove some negative charge, but wouldn't = this be negligible compared to total net negative charge of Earth? Have = you done the calculations? >=20 > Dipole-Multipole configuations exert a a net force in non-uniform = electric > fields > such as the "fair weather Field" that exists between the earth and the > ionosphere. Agreed, but it's a second order term so it's much less than a monopolar = charge of the same amount! Michel >=20 > Fred >> >> [Original Message] >> From: Michel Jullian >> To: >> Date: 3/17/2007 6:50:04 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> Right, they don't move quite freely, but nearly. Many people's lives > depend on Earth being a pretty bad insulator. >> >> Why use a globally neutral device BTW, rather than a net negative = charge? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:35 PM >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> > You assume that all charges flow freely. The Electron Affinity for = many >> > molecules-materials >> > in the earth-earth surface, buildings etc, ranges up to several = electron >> > volts. >> >=20 >> > Fred >> >> >> >> [Original Message] >> >> From: Michel Jullian >> >> To: >> >> Date: 3/17/2007 6:06:03 AM >> >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> >> Globally attractive or repulsive ? But again, this doesn't take = into >> > account the fact that charges flow freely on the Earth surface. = Could > you >> > find no applet where charges can move freely on the surface of > conductors? >> > Surely there must exist one. >> >> >> >> Michel >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 AM >> >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> >> >> >> > This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of = positive >> > charges >> >> > surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 >> > megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth". >> >> >=20 >> >> > Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing? >> >> >=20 >> >> > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html >> >> >=20 >> >> >=20 >> >> >=20 >> >> > O +1 >> >> >=20 >> >> > O -3 >> >> >=20 >> >> > O +1 O +1 >> >> >=20 >> >> >=20 >> >> > O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 > (putative >> > earth charge) >> >> >=20 >> >> >=20 >> >> > Have fun. :-) >> >> >=20 >> >> > Fred >> >> >=20 >> >> > >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > >> >=20 >=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 07:06:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HE6OJA001397; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:06:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HE6Naf001387; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:06:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:06:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FdVKRcmCdFo3vIAsR37vPFuCts+q64B84d23GiEadj+Xxpvz7B9o1ufvL5dXR2F6; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007361714558647@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:05:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403e764c2dc9696f611f1e809e269a0468350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.137 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73845 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According to a NASA-JPL team I asked a couple of years BCF (Before Cold Fusion) the image charge and resulting force is equal to the charge drawn from the earth. They also stated that a "Jovian Thunderbolt would also likely occur if enough charge to lift a craft was transferred from earth ground". Despite the "higher order" force drop-off the multipole configuration requires No Net Charge to exert a force in a non-uniform electric field. Hence if you are levitated over Coeur D' Alene or possibly the Moon in your computer-controlled Three-Point Lifter, you have something to maneuver with. :-) Fred > > [Original Message] > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Date: 3/17/2007 7:17:25 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 2:00 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > > > > Some do, some don't. > > Well, ok :) > > > > > A net negative charge derived from the earth will leave a corresponding > > image charge. > > I am not sure "image charge" is the correct term here (my understanding is that image charge results precisely from the charge mobility we were discussing) but indeed it will remove some negative charge, but wouldn't this be negligible compared to total net negative charge of Earth? Have you done the calculations? > > > > > Dipole-Multipole configurations exert a net force in non-uniform electric > > fields > > such as the "fair weather Field" that exists between the earth and the > > ionosphere. > > Agreed, but it's a second order term so it's much less than a monopolar charge of the same amount! > > Michel > > > > > Fred > >> > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Michel Jullian > >> To: > >> Date: 3/17/2007 6:50:04 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > >> > >> Right, they don't move quite freely, but nearly. Many people's lives > > depend on Earth being a pretty bad insulator. > >> > >> Why use a globally neutral device BTW, rather than a net negative charge? > >> > >> Michel > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Frederick Sparber" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:35 PM > >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > >> > >> > >> > You assume that all charges flow freely. The Electron Affinity for many > >> > molecules-materials > >> > in the earth-earth surface, buildings etc, ranges up to several electron > >> > volts. > >> > > >> > Fred > >> >> > >> >> [Original Message] > >> >> From: Michel Jullian > >> >> To: > >> >> Date: 3/17/2007 6:06:03 AM > >> >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > >> >> > >> >> Globally attractive or repulsive ? But again, this doesn't take into > >> > account the fact that charges flow freely on the Earth surface. Could > > you > >> > find no applet where charges can move freely on the surface of > > conductors? > >> > Surely there must exist one. > >> >> > >> >> Michel > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Frederick Sparber" > >> >> To: > >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 AM > >> >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of positive > >> > charges > >> >> > surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 > >> > megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth". > >> >> > > >> >> > Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing? > >> >> > > >> >> > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > O +1 > >> >> > > >> >> > O -3 > >> >> > > >> >> > O +1 O +1 > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 > > (putative > >> > earth charge) > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Have fun. :-) > >> >> > > >> >> > Fred > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 07:55:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HEtcpg021955; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:55:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HEta3l021933; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:55:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:55:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0fe501c768a4$4eadb280$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070313160644.037b0558@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070313163441.035ec588@mindspring.com> <156201c765c4$a31ef960$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F730F5.9050806@ix.netcom.com> <157701c765c7$756614b0$3800a8c0@zothan> <172501c766c7$e2b2eb50$3800a8c0@zothan> <1da701c766e3$c61b0f60$3800a8c0@zothan> <45F95FD7.7010206@ix.netcom.com> <1e7001c76746$ce180200$3800a8c0@zothan> <0cfa01c767e9$f0f11200$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FACCAD.4040408@ix.netcom.com> <0d6b01c76803$0d86b0f0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070316161300.0362b9d8@mindspring.com> <0dc301c76835$a91b9120$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:55:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73846 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) Status: RO X-Status: A last word on this. It is true as was pointed out to me that correct = original definition and dictionaries and textbooks are one thing, and = usage is another thing. So it seemed to me only fair to check current = usage as well. To Ed's discharge, a quick Google search shows that several other CF = researchers e.g. J. Dash also write "electrolysis of palladium", = although the vast majority of them, especially the professional = electrochemists among them e.g. M. Fleischmann, write "electrolysis of = heavy water" for P&F type experiments. Outside of CF Ed's use is much rarer (a handful of hits for = "electrolysis of platinum", hundreds of thousands for "electrolysis of = water") Anyway I would be happy if I could have modestly contributed to a better = use of electrochemical terms in CF, since such better use and more = rigorous scientific practises in general could only help recognition of = CF research in mainstream science, which we would all welcome heartily. Michel P.S. Interestingly this discussion has shown that rightness or wrongness = is not absolute but largely depends on who says, and on who hears. If a = Dr Tempests had said "I have analyzed a blood tester using blood" = everybody would have agreed he was wrong. Here Dr Storms said "I have = electrolyzed palladium using D2O" and hardly anybody here even = considered that he might be wrong. Even more interestingly maybe, Ed = himself still doesn't seem to admit he could have been wrong or even a = little inaccurate in his use of the terms, in spite of what Faraday and = all present day dictionaries and textbooks may say. This is unfortunate = for a scientist who in my view should always doubt. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 2:43 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) Yo Jed, it's not a matter of telling someone how to speak his native = language. The vocabulary of science is meant to allow accurate = communication between scientists, so that e.g. when one says = "electrolyzed" or "excess heat" it means the same thing to everybody. Now Faraday lived a long time ago, that's true. Words do change over = time, but when they do, traces of such changes usually can be found in = recent dictionaries. Let's pick one at random: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/electrolyze=20 e=B7lec=B7tro=B7lyze (-lktr-lz)=20 tr.v. e=B7lec=B7tro=B7lyzed, e=B7lec=B7tro=B7lyz=B7ing, = e=B7lec=B7tro=B7lyz=B7es=20 To cause to decompose by electrolysis. Short of writing one up yourself, can you find a dictionary where the = definition of 'electrolyze' is so different from the above that it could = even remotely apply to the electrode rather than to the electrolyte? = When you electrolyzed water at school, did you in fact electrolyze = platinum? Does your car drive you? Someone has attacked me, virulently, not on the merits of my = contribution, but on the way I communicated it with the drama and all. I = will reply that all Ed had to do, instead of replying he didn't see what = my problem was, was reach for a dictionary to see what the hell I could = mean, realize his error, and reply gruffly but honestly "right, my = mistake, it's the D2O which is electrolyzed" and there would have been = no drama. That's what I expected him to do, like I would have expected = any scientist, because that's what I would have done in his place. Now should scientists criticize each other over scientific = communications? I think so, and I think CF in particular would be in = better health if there had been less leniency towards each other's = mistakes. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion = skeptic Dr. Michael Shermer) > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >>How can you persist in this attempt to reivent the terms of=20 >>electrochemistry? Whatever happens to the palladium, it is not=20 >>'electro-chemically decomposed' (the meaning of 'electrolyzed'), cf=20 >>the Faraday quote. >=20 > Yo, Michel: Don't tell a native speaker how to speak his own=20 > language. Words mean whatever we say they mean, and they are used=20 > however we use them. Words change over time. Faraday lived a long time = ago. >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 08:21:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HFLbVZ024002; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:21:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HFLYNS023889; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:21:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:21:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ff201c768a7$f169fa30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22007361714558647@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:21:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <_E66p.A.K1F.9dA_FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73847 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters > According to a NASA-JPL team I asked a couple of years BCF (Before = Cold > Fusion) > the image charge and resulting force is equal to the charge drawn from = the > earth. Never believe what anyone says ;-) > They also stated that a "Jovian Thunderbolt would also likely occur if > enough > charge to lift a craft was transferred from earth ground". This can be worked out using Paschen's law. >=20 > Despite the "higher order" force drop-off the multipole configuration > requires No Net Charge to exert a force in a non-uniform electric = field. Sure. =20 > Hence if you are levitated over Coeur D' Alene or possibly the Moon > in your computer-controlled Three-Point Lifter, you have something to > maneuver with. :-) Maneuverability. Good point. Well, you have simulated the concept = assuming zero charge mobility, see if it works too assuming full charge = mobility: reality is somewhere in between! (closer to the latter I would = think, maybe this point could be experimented) Michel >=20 > Fred >> >> [Original Message] >> From: Michel Jullian >> To: >> Date: 3/17/2007 7:17:25 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 2:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> > Some do, some don't. >> >> Well, ok :) >> >> >=20 >> > A net negative charge derived from the earth will leave a = corresponding >> > image charge. >> >> I am not sure "image charge" is the correct term here (my = understanding > is that image charge results precisely from the charge mobility we = were > discussing) but indeed it will remove some negative charge, but = wouldn't > this be negligible compared to total net negative charge of Earth? = Have you > done the calculations? >> >> >=20 >> > Dipole-Multipole configurations exert a net force in non-uniform > electric >> > fields >> > such as the "fair weather Field" that exists between the earth and = the >> > ionosphere. >> >> Agreed, but it's a second order term so it's much less than a = monopolar > charge of the same amount! >> >> Michel >> >> >=20 >> > Fred >> >> >> >> [Original Message] >> >> From: Michel Jullian >> >> To: >> >> Date: 3/17/2007 6:50:04 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> >> Right, they don't move quite freely, but nearly. Many people's = lives >> > depend on Earth being a pretty bad insulator. >> >> >> >> Why use a globally neutral device BTW, rather than a net negative > charge? >> >> >> >> Michel >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:35 PM >> >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> >> >> >> > You assume that all charges flow freely. The Electron Affinity = for > many >> >> > molecules-materials >> >> > in the earth-earth surface, buildings etc, ranges up to several > electron >> >> > volts. >> >> >=20 >> >> > Fred >> >> >> >> >> >> [Original Message] >> >> >> From: Michel Jullian >> >> >> To: >> >> >> Date: 3/17/2007 6:06:03 AM >> >> >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> >> >> >> Globally attractive or repulsive ? But again, this doesn't take = into >> >> > account the fact that charges flow freely on the Earth surface. = Could >> > you >> >> > find no applet where charges can move freely on the surface of >> > conductors? >> >> > Surely there must exist one. >> >> >> >> >> >> Michel >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> >> >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> >> >> To: >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 AM >> >> >> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > This CalTech Applet shows how a three-point distribution of > positive >> >> > charges >> >> >> > surrounding a negative charge can feel a force from the "~0.5 >> >> > megacoulomb excess negative charge of the earth". >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > Induction or Tesla Coils sequencing? >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > = http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > O +1 >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > O -3 >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > O +1 O +1 >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 O -1 >> > (putative >> >> > earth charge) >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > Have fun. :-) >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > Fred >> >> >> >=20 >> >> >> > >> >> >=20 >> >> >=20 >> >> > >> >> >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > >> >=20 >=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 08:51:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HFpaJU012823; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:51:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HFpZVO012806; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:51:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:51:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:51:23 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <0dd001c76838$0af4c860$3800a8c0@zothan> Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73848 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you for your unique insights Michel, I assume that excerpt had been inserted here for my own benefit. If by perchance you are the actual author I'd say you have a damned good career ahead of you as a SF writer, along with all of your current talents. I am impressed, honestly. Rest assured, I have been given assignments far more challenging than this on occasion. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > To Steven Vincent Johnson, > > Share and enjoy (mask the bottom halves of the letters, and read > them in the local language of Eadrax) > > Michel > > "Share and Enjoy" is the company motto of the hugely successful > Sirius Cybernetics Corporation Complaints division, which now > covers the major land masses of three medium sized planets and is > the only part of the Corporation to have shown a consistent > profit in recent years. > > The motto stands --- or rather stood --- in three mile high > illuminated letters near the Complaints Department spaceport on > Eadrax. Unfortunately its weight was such that shortly after it > was erected, the ground beneath the letters caved in and they > dropped for nearly half their length through the offices of many > talented young complaints executives --- now deceased. > > The protruding upper halves of the letters now appear, in the > local language, to read ``Go stick your head in a pig'', and are > no longer illuminated, except at times of special celebration. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:11 PM > Subject: [Vo]: > > > > SUBJECT: Jullian Opinions > > > > To Michel Jullian, > > > > I noticed you recently stated: > > > >> It follows that saying "palladium was electrolyzed in > >> D2O+LiOD" is like saying "a blood tester was analyzed > >> in blood", sounds absurd doesn't it? If it's too late > >> to correct your book for such absurdities, could you > >> correct at least the paper so it doesn't disgrace the > >> lenr.org library? > > > > I scanned through past posts pertaining to the subject thread: > " Ed Storm's confusion (was Re: [Vo]: Cold Fusion skeptic Dr. > Michael Shermer)". > > > > I see you have made additional posts since then. > > > > I gather from your repeated attempts to draw Ed Storms into a > dialogue with you that you have extensive knowledge in the field > of electrochemistry, that you wish to put your accumulated > experience to good use. > > > > I'm definitely not speaking from a humble perspective when I > strongly suggest that it is not in anyone's best interest to > attempt to educate others in a potentially manipulative manner. > To inform an individual that they have in your opinion made an > error in their work (such as in the title), but then deliberately > not tell them specifically what the so-called error might be, as > you initially did, is equivalent to a form of manipulative drama > on the high seas. Such dialogue, ironically, focus more of the > attention on you and the importance of your opinions rather than > on the alleged mistake that needs to be corrected. It seems to me > that if your objective had been to achieve resolution of the > "mistake," you would have revealed the specifics of said > "mistake" up front. What I found interesting was the fact that > initially you chose not to do so - repeatedly. Repeatedly, you > left it as a big mystery - an unfolding drama. That suggests a > very different agenda other than having Ed ! > > Storm's best interests in mind. > > > > Performing drama of this nature in a public form should only be > conducted by an experienced teacher. Indeed, teachers > occasionally DO resort to this tactic if they are sure the > students participating in the public dialogue will actually learn > something valuable. The best teachers, the most honorable ones, > have their student's best interests in mind. Others, on the other > hand, who self-appoint themselves in the role of a "teacher" who > then use this tactic on the targeted "student" are not so much > interested in the welfare of their "student" or even in the > learning process for that matter. They are more interested in > propagating their personal opinions, attaching importance to them. > > > > Maybe you ARE a teacher, professionally speaking. I really > don't know. Maybe you are even a GOOD teacher. Perhaps certain > teachers really DO need the equivalent of an opinionated > attention getting EGO in order to teach the good lessons. > Nevertheless, a question you might want to ask yourself is: Did > Ed Storm ever ask you to assume the role of a teacher for his > educational benefit? And whose benefit was the initial exchange > really meant for? > > > > Now that the incorrect use of terminology, the dirty laundry > you attribute to Storm's title is finally out in the open, the > ramifications for all to ponder deeply including your suggested > corrections, I noticed you are now stating that his book contains > "absurdities", that if published as-is, could "...disgrace the > lenr.org library." > > > > You are entitled to your opinions. > > > > With not so many Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 09:21:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HGLBTX019758; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:21:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HGLAkV019748; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:21:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:21:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:20:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73849 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peace Steven, I am tired of this trial for crime of L=E8se Majest=E9 = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se_majest%C3%A9 The excerpt was from "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" by = Douglas Adams, sorry I forgot to attribute it. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "OrionWorks" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 4:51 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack > Thank you for your unique insights Michel, >=20 > I assume that excerpt had been inserted here for my own benefit. If by From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 11:01:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HI0rdT001692; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:00:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HI0oC6001673; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:00:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:00:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=mEXdOtT9sRagVMXhp9nCQiitXWK7VhaOF7mANAeXDzJr9kB/6oxLFtl61b4HaPxLyDjM7zrn3nAoiXUhAoJ9vwVlX7GNLsuYj1bAEch7MMg9v9bxfShrpfrkE9ocP81CFjJInnnIlJW3QXReDmTa4Jgz5i7SSX3U3QfPxER3ic4= ; X-YMail-OSG: xy2lZSAVM1lP9O1uGCqbwTyk4DydSFDNUnN_T.Sas91K2MZHpaeN5zwUnSuwmP92ZYWBTPkaTlJ86NgAXIa4CTMOMujtC0eb9al_9jXKQL.sAURfAILskQ-- Message-ID: <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:00:47 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> In-Reply-To: <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73850 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: Zachary Jones wrote: > Funny that ORMUS comes up here - a nice emergence. I worked with Barry > a while ago; even pitched the ozonation tech he is connected with at a > DOE shindig in 2001. I have a giant poster session in a closet > somewheres. Seems like an age ago. > Even back then they were pretty hush-hush about the exact nature of the > tech. If we reminisced long enough, and I dug deep enough, I could > probably turn up notes or such from my conversations with him. > Intuition tells me, though, that not enough info was named to reproduce > a mechanism (why, anyway? if there's value here then, all parties > interested in the best for things, should be able to cooperate) They > were on the down-low about it because it had produced the first > ORMUS-like material, but because of a lack of controls had also poisoned > one of the inventors. Barry's bio talks about it a bit, here: > http://www.subtleenergies.com/ORMUS/tw/barrybio.htm (maybe this is not news, here) Well - the Ormus stuff and David Hudson, in particular, have been mentioned many times in the (far) past on vortex. Some of that was tainted by the connection to the infamous Joe Champion, who used to post here before 'the law' caught up with him; and take the heat for his rather strange pseudo-science methods. Perhaps 'tainted' is not the correct wording, as the jury is still out on some aspects of that episode (not the criminal jury, which did not find Champion's work convincing, but the only one which really counts- the jury of historical revisionism which is part of the human meme-pool, so to speak). I would say the overall impression of that entire scene was far from positive BUT that is to be expected for anything which is both so removed from the mainstream, and without much laboratory validation - and Hudson himself has all the ear-markings of a PT Barnum type of character, and few of the traits of a dedicated scientist. If you hear him in person, you are likely to be far more convinced than otherwise. Nevertheless - all of this subfield of inquiry came before "excitonics". The exciton changes everything, and together with QM and the quasi-BEC (i.e. "RTT BEC" or room temperature transitory Bose Einstein Condensate) may end up validating parts of the Ormus concept - (and parts of LENR as well) who knows? BTW - the Wiki entry on this subject (exciton) is woefully inadequate and misses much of the latest R&D which is largely being performed by such heavyweights as Intel, AMD and IBM-Almaden but with little in the way of published results. If not for my personal proximity to this area and having an associates who is at least tangentially involved with this R&D, it would be largely hidden from view. This new cast of characters, the Intel-clique, would probably never admit to even knowing-of the term: Ormus, or of Hudson, Champion, Carter, and the like - but they may end-up validating some of that prior work in surprising ways. And you can be sure that the same hits turn up on google for their staff as you get - so they do "know" of it, even if they will never acknowledge it publicly, due to the aforementioned taint of pseudo-science. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 13:32:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2HKWF5M007616; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:32:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2HKWDsh007543; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:32:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:32:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:32:02 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73851 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peace Michel, as am I. Douglas Adams, of course! Why didn't I recognize his timeless satire. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.orionworks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 10:21 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack > > > Peace Steven, I am tired of this trial for crime of Lèse Majesté > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se_majest%C3%A9 > > The excerpt was from "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" > by Douglas Adams, sorry I forgot to attribute it. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "OrionWorks" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 4:51 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack > > > > Thank you for your unique insights Michel, > > > > I assume that excerpt had been inserted here for my own benefit. If by > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 18:46:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2I1kkeV026682; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:46:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2I1kign026651; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:46:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:46:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=l6jz9y1/0XbCU+qM4ZCF+VGt3l6PomBxPc5qYYKsuGzWt67YggnnXbxezPLzp/P+rIzbbOkDUjb1UmSdzb+20K9yTFtuA5/GKxbw9QdAmTjZjH7X5UkG/30ekerxnjUs0HTQNkig6MuHY+TJaPxuzIeSBJxBl+B8bJaAJmjiz3M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZN2UjHJ+o4GoooiNencjWHDDdvAi+ztJUe+ckHmlOPRXop2RdIzDoMDOiPXm0ETxwJRry3MgBPLgAVzfWN3688M4iLSy/uBuPJUQBjqAb+BzGXHX7tHbjtuxdh21RKWPPvSUDXXzV/WdauSUg65TtE10YCpdyjJkYIHqOh1jnd0= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:46:43 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73852 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/17/07, OrionWorks wrote: > Douglas Adams, of course! Why didn't I recognize his timeless satire. Not necessarily "timeless"; but, more likely, "infinitely improbable". ;-) T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 19:38:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2I2ciX4006481; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:38:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2I2chq2006471; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:38:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:38:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=sqDdtiOlukZKbSO1D/NQRlxcQGmV6m2N4vOIZcrhGM3RDaPtgnosu9MVgsmhxonRBRYpySQLSucEN0K5H3v5+t5pgTfI0n1TSW0NP+dSdHUK9XGklyllOEeX/fDc+0fsLG4b7hg9r15ej/dh1IaReLMlgH2/5dFZ2wmfvPQdzkE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=XELR/C/n4Encvs1gI8R6sFevq7I456OLSVAgR1o/MwqxDDkQLgiB4w02OjLQTcqohdLaftz5NI9nX7b5dkDWfoCf9/3fIeghZcr8icFhf0Cda20BbdQ/WghYsWTmrBX6ywLQ8Wl093Eb26EWsQKZ10wd3lf3UuX/7Suy8l+DdrQ= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703171938k43ccbee5kd189b2d5c3474bc2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 04:38:40 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_117075_23197007.1174185520997" References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73853 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_117075_23197007.1174185520997 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline *350 Engineers Wanted for SuperMag Production (http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=3D222663)* - The company is now seeking a team of 350 electrical engineers from around the world to join its production team for the "SuperMag" electrical generator, to contact the company and to present their r=E9sum=E9s in anticipation of = a positive independent evaluation of the technology. They will also be seekin= g international marketers and financiers to take this technology to the international markets. (*Market Wire*; Mar. 5, 2007) On 19/01/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 1/15/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > My guess is pump/dump. The stock has gone from $0.05 to $0.65 in a few > months. > > > SVET is now trading at $1.75, up $1.10 since this report. > > Terry > > ------=_Part_117075_23197007.1174185520997 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline 350 Engineers Wanted for SuperMag = Production  (http://www.marketwire.com/mw/r= elease_html_b1?release_id=3D222663) - The company is now seeking a team of 350 electrical engineers from around the world to join its production team for the "SuperMag" electrical generator, to contact the company and to present their r=E9sum=E9s in anticipation of a positive independent evaluation of the technology. They will also be seeking international marketers and financiers to take this technology to the international markets. (Market= Wire; Mar. 5, 2007)

On 19/01/0= 7, Terry Blanton < hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
On 1/15/07, Terry Blanton < hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:


> My guess is pump/dump.&nb= sp; The stock has gone from $0.05 to $0.65 in a few months.

SVET is now trading at $1.75, up $1.10 since this report.

Terry
=

------=_Part_117075_23197007.1174185520997-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 19:51:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2I2pidf009291; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:51:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2I2pgUa009273; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:51:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:51:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FCA919.1090503@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:51:05 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> In-Reply-To: <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73854 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zachary Jones wrote: > Funny that ORMUS comes up here - a nice emergence. I worked with > Barry a while ago; even pitched the ozonation tech he is connected > with at a DOE shindig in 2001. I have a giant poster session in a > closet somewheres. Seems like an age ago. Interesting post Zachary. I have posted Barry's website on this list in the past. He was doing an emailing list. There were some people locally who had purchased his traps and were collecting the material in question, ORMES. I haven't heard from him, or them lately, are the traps still available? I assume that you've purchased one of the traps? OTOH, I know what happens when you assume. Did you collect any of the ORMES material? Did you test it? Did you ingest it? Did it affect your health? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 20:10:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2I3A1Tl013515; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:10:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2I32CEj011624; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:02:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:02:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FCABA0.2000500@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:01:52 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73855 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: nuke question Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: >Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or >impact. Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago >where the flesh,eyes and tongue will rot while they are still >standing ( bones remain) Zec: 14. This description seems to >indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the projectile does not >knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. One of the Eschatologists that I listen to says that this would be the effects of a neutron bomb too. However, I don't know what the effects of an N B would be. The Savage was interviewing a man on the subject of miniature atom bombs. He said that they could be made as small as 6" X 18" and as light as 60 pounds. He was going on about how Al Queda has smuggled one or more of them into America. I have heard else where that a miniature nuke would require tritium, so it would have a short life time. IMHO, if they had something like that, they would use it. He continued, the yield of such a device would be 10 K tons, the last time I heard, the yield was 1 k ton. Fortunately, a miniature nuke is difficult to build. He said that Pakistan has a nuclear lab that is capable of building such a device.The best way to catch a lier is in the details. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 23:26:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2I6Q2OF028740; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:26:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2I6PxS8028726; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:25:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:25:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FCDB55.5050608@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:25:25 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73856 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: honey bee story Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; Last night's guest on C to C AM was Linda Molton Howe of Earth Files .com . She has been following the story of the disappearing honey bees, which AFAIK, has not broken in the main stream media. My friend said. > There may be a lnk to the GMO plants and fungicides and this problem. - > Einstein once said, "If the honey bees disappear so will we." > And I replied; LMH used the program as a bully pulpit to attack GMO's. Unfortunately it doesn't fit with the facts. The bees aren't dying, they are disappearing. The empty hive doesn't attract the usual scavengers. If there were an accumulation of bioengineered pesticides, the scientists would have found them. Trust me, they are looking for them, publishing something like that would make a career, or several. There is only one other instance where this happens, cattle mutilations. Scavengers don't eat the cow's caucus. If I told you that a reptilian creature, which tells lies, had sucked the blood out of an animal and removed some of the bodily orifices, it would be immediately obvious to most Christians what sort of entity it was. If the Space Brothers are responsible for the disappearance of the honey bees, then they are following their agenda of reducing the human population. This isn't apparent to LMH, of course, she is quite New Age, as is George Nooray, the host. I'm looking for ideas on measuring changes in the empty hives or carcases which would account for the lack of scavenging. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 01:39:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2I8dhLm027104; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:39:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2I8df0q027097; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:39:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:39:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <45FCA919.1090503@usfamily.net> References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FCA919.1090503@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <17C27053-2404-4F41-888D-5BDBC70B02FE@newalexandria.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Zachary Jones Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:40:43 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73857 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I built a trap version, and spent time looking at several demonstrated and proposed trap configurations (along with a host of testimonials from users). In the end, building a magnetic trap was the most satisfying route for me. The material that it collected was quite interesting, for a qualitative point of view. THe effect was more minimal that I would have wanted, which I felt stemmed from design - but it was 'attractive'. It has a very penetrating feeling to the skin that was a preferable experience. I would say that oral consumption of the liquid offered not much greater effect. Like I said, in the end I felt that the design itself was massively inefficient; and as well I didn't like the concept of taking lots of 'good' water and stripping the ORMEs from it for my own benefit - then dumping it back into the environment. Conceptually, it was a kind of sewage - but one that I didn't know how to 'compost' it so that nature would re-imbue it with ORMEs. Barring a vortex-based magnetic / mechanical separation design, the chemistry and ozonation methods are far more attractive to me. Zak On Mar 17, 2007, at 7:51 PM, thomas malloy wrote: > Zachary Jones wrote: > >> Funny that ORMUS comes up here - a nice emergence. I worked with >> Barry a while ago; even pitched the ozonation tech he is >> connected with at a DOE shindig in 2001. I have a giant poster >> session in a closet somewheres. Seems like an age ago. > > Interesting post Zachary. I have posted Barry's website on this > list in the past. He was doing an emailing list. There were some > people locally who had purchased his traps and were collecting the > material in question, ORMES. I haven't heard from him, or them > lately, are the traps still available? I assume that you've > purchased one of the traps? OTOH, I know what happens when you > assume. Did you collect any of the ORMES material? Did you test it? > Did you ingest it? Did it affect your health? > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http:// > www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 01:47:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2I8lKAd029336; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:47:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2I8lJp5029319; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:47:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:47:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:47:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <8suhF.A.6JH.WyP_FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73858 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack Status: RO X-Status: On 3/18/07, Terry Blanton wrote: >> Douglas Adams, of course! Why didn't I recognize his timeless satire. >=20 > Not necessarily "timeless"; but, more likely, "infinitely improbable". = ;-) In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday BTW, = the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) Michel ----------------- ``Pussy, pussy, pussy,'' he said, ``coochicoochicoochicoo ... pussy want = his fish? Nice piece of fish ... pussy want it?'' =20 The cat seemed undecided on the matter. It pawed rather condescendingly = at the piece of fish the man was holding out, and then got distracted by = a piece of dust on the floor. =20 ``Pussy not eat his fish, pussy get thin and waste away, I think,'' said = the man. Doubt crept into his voice.=20 ``I imagine this is what will happen,'' he said, ``but how can I tell?'' = He proffered the fish again.=20 ``Pussy think,'' he said, ``eat fish or not eat fish. I think it is = better if I don't get involved.'' He sighed.=20 ``I think fish is nice, but then I think that rain is wet, so who am I = to judge?''=20 He left the fish on the floor for the cat, and retired to his seat.=20 ``Ah, I seem to see you eating it,'' he said at last, as the cat = exhausted the entertainment possibilities of the speck of dust and = pounced on to the fish.=20 ``I like it when I see you eat the fish,'' said the man, ``because in my = mind you will waste away if you don't.''=20 He picked up from the table a piece of paper and the stub of a pencil. = He held one in one hand and the other in the other, and experimented = with the different ways of bringing them together. He tried holding the = pencil under the paper, then over the paper, then next to the paper. He = tried wrapping the paper round the pencil, he tried rubbing the stubby = end of the pencil against the paper and then he tried rubbing the sharp = end of the pencil against the paper. It made a mark, and he was = delighted with the discovery, as he was every day. He picked up another = piece of paper from the table. This had a crossword on it. He studied it = briefly and filled in a couple of clues before losing interest.=20 He tried sitting on one of his hands and was intrigued by the feel of = the bones of his hip.=20 ``Fish come from far away,'' he said, ``or so I'm told. Or so I imagine = I'm told. When the men come, or when in my mind the men come in their = six black ships, do they come in your mind too? What do you see pussy?'' = He looked at the cat, which was more concerned with getting the fish = down as rapidly as possible than it was with these speculations.=20 ``And when I hear their questions, do you hear questions? What do their = voices mean to you? Perhaps you just think they're singing songs to = you.'' He reflected on this, and saw the flaw in the supposition.=20 ``Perhaps they are singing songs to you,'' he said, ``and I just think = they're asking me questions.''=20 ---------------- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 01:51:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2I8p6L4025749; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:51:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2I8p4Ig025740; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:51:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:51:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Zachary Jones Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:52:04 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73859 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mar 17, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > Well - the Ormus stuff and David Hudson, in particular, have been > mentioned many times in the (far) past on vortex. Some of that Yea, I vaguely remember. A little secret; I transitioned to Vortex-L from Skeptics-L (was that what it was called?) around 1995. I thinks that about when it got going. I keep up intermittently. > The exciton changes everything, and together with QM and the quasi- > BEC (i.e. "RTT BEC" or room temperature transitory Bose Einstein > Condensate) may end up validating parts of the Ormus concept - (and > parts of LENR as well) who knows? I rarely am on the deep edge of particle physics, so thanks for these new leads. > BTW - the Wiki entry on this subject (exciton) is woefully > inadequate and misses much of the latest R&D which is largely being > performed by such heavyweights as Intel, AMD and IBM-Almaden but > with little in the way of published results. If not for my personal > proximity to this area and having an associates who is at least > tangentially involved with this R&D, it would be largely hidden > from view. I'd love to hear a story or two, if you would / can. It'd be a great kick-start to more digging. Did you hear about the recent assert of a 'new state of matter'? http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-03/ns-hrf031407.php I talks about entangled electron fractional-spins. It's fun for me, because in my ignorant ideating ~1yr ago it occurred to me that we may be about to realize a 5th state of matter ("5th world", to quote the indigenous) that would be manifest of synchronization / entanglement. I wondered if ORME stuff may be related to this 'new' state of matter, but my models aren't sufficient yet. Zak From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 05:13:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ICDUwd012163; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:13:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ICDSZ4012093; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:13:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:13:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c76956$d3a24700$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:13:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73860 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zac wrote.. >Did you hear about the recent assert of a 'new state of matter'? http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-03/ns-hrf031407.php Howdy Zac, "My what big eyes you got, Granma".... as Little Red Riding Hood said to the big bad wolf. The people pursuing this theory are "parallel" but not on track with what some scientists describe as a 5th state of matter for the simple reason that a 5th state does not exists except in the imaginary. Again, pursuit of such a synthesis of matter can only be done with a new form of synthetic( imaginary) math to describe the change in state one is imagining. Is the pursuit useful? Yes! and extremely challenging. Keep your eyes on the MS Q Team at UC Santa Barbara because they have their head screwed on straight. One may conjecture that the "end product" may come out of the end of the pipe "opposite to the direction of flow"..hmmm. Which would answer a perplexing question of how the direction of flow within a water vortex can be bi-directional while exiting down a drain. Last year we tested a high speed water vortex inducer that produced a near perfect cylinder shaped vortex. This shape differs from a parabolic "tornado" shape we are all familar with. The cylinder shape has an "eyewall" like a hurricane. This cylinder shape permits a better examination of free electrons and a host of "rabbit holes" one can travel and become mis-directed. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 05:43:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ICgqKj021408; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:42:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ICgpTr021394; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:42:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 05:42:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gnF4rbHy2F6Jk2Z/aKvkIYAq4/cKqwLuGAMvYmtsDv0IZl3wcMNF6cwlbO6MaWxhQsX3lKvo4Uzqgmj5qoxrd1gkL94hrSyo7ndnSSX3MWJ1BP9tsNr7hcWDbATLs5zkSns6p4IeQWr6YLPu8J0n5Ge8oJyfjLpRRKwrabI877U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=H9ZqTLBs0BbVGh/EBW4uG2JxhhaT9ugtxysBMWYymOs29QoPNK6YsT5+76p9Hc/DlgPvBQij72qWWpjfMOmk3gibR4dZnjFYIeupxhxcubcKd25pwLL4Zv4nhor7kPpZMVf3y25Lm0i6M7u/wwJEFSuDDEFZpHqiAif+sPrkNms= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:42:49 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703171938k43ccbee5kd189b2d5c3474bc2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> <538fa8f10703171938k43ccbee5kd189b2d5c3474bc2@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: <7RJLl.A.OOF.LPT_FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73861 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Recruiting from a hotmail address?!? Terry On 3/17/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: > 350 Engineers Wanted for SuperMag Production > (http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=3D222663) > - The company is now seeking a team of 350 electrical engineers from arou= nd > the world to join its production team for the "SuperMag" electrical > generator, to contact the company and to present their r=E9sum=E9s in > anticipation of a positive independent evaluation of the technology. They > will also be seeking international marketers and financiers to take this > technology to the international markets. (Market Wire; Mar. 5, 2007) > > > On 19/01/07, Terry Blanton < hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 1/15/07, Terry Blanton < hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > My guess is pump/dump. The stock has gone from $0.05 to $0.65 in a f= ew > months. > > > > > > SVET is now trading at $1.75, up $1.10 since this report. > > > > Terry > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 06:07:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ID7BY3027042; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:07:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ID7916027022; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:07:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:07:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HYdE5QeuEodSDVSzK0cTYV+5GdcZbhck7TXXHwA6pfar4MimP/7vUVyOhMZb/v+W3QKGDgqr9YWaxZleiTT3G8xOx89vMXXs2AUkuPwUNz2V2d2RRXCUElfKJTSrtVHkhjgMlq5hYd0TuWqsx96CZvzj4unMcL1063YL3TzrzhU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OuMo3Su2GRB0PfCJbxn0nYmA79DJ/ORuA5xu30bPL9GqUlCHguKu9trblauuDxhIQn/dap0wI7MwBEdUS9SG81U+HREd7Ua533Y/jliUyO/J6JuW2J0O8ZBXQrSwbjSRArB+3GR5yNM4SuFC/fKLfJtTApVk/I60Ec5F+peHsnY= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:07:09 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: honey bee story In-Reply-To: <45FCDB55.5050608@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45FCDB55.5050608@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73862 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/18/07, thomas malloy wrote: > I'm looking for ideas on measuring changes in the empty hives or > carcases which would account for the lack of scavenging. The missing bee might bee the result of the rapidly changing magnetic field of the earth. It would also explain odd behavior in migratory birds. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 06:19:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IDJZZR000726; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:19:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IDJYPY000711; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:19:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:19:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ax2ZiwiXX449AbmMbqb/yxfGlDZv+/srP9uxrWEEaYKVwFMA11eaplKUjQXxqhA+bh0iPEAzAb6d5wNMn1ZVzTlJQqh7MX8t9xJFuiWFE234L1LHXElpFL0yAYTC5zMMUVtkcsX6fUPxJHWJ5N5pSaqaEhe4OmbVTu2tzHRsCvU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QNHFVPBy2tFN4c7NPvSafMDnjnoCjzlQnZYKV0EFYUkLmzdsAxQZt3yhw6OAqL5jOFI/efPZVX1S9HVLG4EFK1cwbMg3AKcnnsXugDq51WTAwtdJUaPw/ofq3HJ+tvvHGO2lgh9GTuDJ4rIjiuORtONCH48sd3d85yPnMkx8RKk= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:19:34 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack In-Reply-To: <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <10aM0D.A.DL.lxT_FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73863 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday BTW, the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so bloody anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is French and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english and will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her second language. Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the process, she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug and aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our ignorant bliss. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 07:02:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IE2Cpo016286; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:02:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IE2Ahr016266; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:02:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:02:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <113d01c76966$0453cd10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:02:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73864 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack Status: RO X-Status: You can call me smug if it pleases you but language has nothing to do = with this, "J'ai =E9lectrolys=E9 du palladium" would be just as silly as = "I have electrolyzed palladium" :) Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack > On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >> In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday BTW, = the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) >=20 > Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so bloody > anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is French > and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english and > will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her second > language. >=20 > Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the process, > she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug and > aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our ignorant > bliss. >=20 > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 07:49:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IEnTiI023367; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:49:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IEnRvD023350; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:49:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:49:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:52:03 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73865 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The issue of importance on Michel's mind is whether the word electrolysis is being used correctly. He and I agree that the word describes initiation of a chemical reaction by passage of current. Thus, H2O can be electrolyzed. In fact, palladium can also be electrolyzed because it is chemically changed by passing current trough it in an electrolytic cell, something Faraday did not know. The palladium reacts to form PdD and it dissolves in the solution. Both reactions are consistent with chemical reactions being initiated by flowing current. Therefore, it is correct to say that palladium is being electrolyzed. The problem with Michel's approach is that he is unwilling to see beyond the conventional and limited understanding of electrolysis while maintaining that only he is correct in how the word is used. Ed Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday BTW, >> the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) > > > Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so bloody > anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is French > and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english and > will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her second > language. > > Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the process, > she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug and > aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our ignorant > bliss. > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 08:46:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IFk2pc030665; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:46:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IFk0no030646; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:46:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:46:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=fK3EfnhDMD9TQ+TPhhlFhUdZ1KFAGTcUVZtlcmIfAT20BjYvb0t9ey1iIfKeBBkvpD1GkiOhM4z9NTX6jVDWWZURUm6b8KDerGQkznOmUWOwkPrLke7gI5x4Fdyp6bun1pI3sUgx7WVD5+JsUJ9I4hZ33uytaV1ih2D3ds2kfQA= ; X-YMail-OSG: cLupO0MVM1lX3sZTdNDkgzdnVsW5Weu71Mk7CQAfrrrVivS.vNXNzHJSGl.OuE.pQ9xHqqHcCclEYMNtI_.uEHkv.3Lkqtzw9IeE9tbaN8mQ0WQphOyM.g-- Message-ID: <45FD5EB3.1080401@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:45:55 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> In-Reply-To: <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <-Et50.A.ueH.46V_FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73866 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: PQP2 was: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: Zachary Jones wrote: > Did you hear about the recent assert of a 'new state of matter'? > http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-03/ns-hrf031407.php From the article: "In the experiment, electrons moving in the interface = between two semiconductors behaved as though they were made up of=20 particles with only a fraction of the electron=92s charge. This so-called= =20 fractional quantum hall effect (FQHE) suggested that electrons may not=20 be elementary particles after all. However, it soon became clear that=20 electrons under certain conditions can congregate in a way that gives=20 them the illusion of having fractional charge =96 an explanation that=20 earned Laughlin, Horst St=F6rmer and Daniel Tsui [L.S.T.] the Nobel prize= "=20 [in 1998] Funny, I was reading this just after contemplating a few of the recent=20 postings to the hydrino forum, and realizing that Mills Theory has even=20 more serious problems than most realize; even if he is mostly correct on = the experimental evidence. "Mills' CQM is dead, but the hydrino lives" - that kind of thing. Except = now the verdict will read "CQM is dead, but PQP2 lives..." read on. The thought occurred that L.S.T. quasi-particle might offer Mills, or=20 his reinterpreter, a way to salvage everything, as this entity answers=20 two issues elegantly. Mills is of course too vain to ever change his views, and HSG is now=20 moving far away from neutrality, ergo vortex is the only forum where=20 alterations of Mills' theoretical views, but acceptance of BGSH (below=20 ground state hydrogen) is openly permitted and can be argued without=20 moderator interference. Actually a growing number of Vo's have, by now, been convinced of the=20 obvious: that LENR is probably (in at least some cases) predicated on=20 deuterium within a metal-matrix first going into the BGS transitory=20 condition. I suspect the first two levels of Millsian shrinkage are=20 transitory (perhaps up to even 5 levels, before stability is reached). The two open issues answered elegantly are: the source of energy, and=20 the ability to have a stable (uncharged !!) Hydrino hydride, that is=20 BGSH or shrinkage >6 which is essentially uncharged. I believe the solar derived hydrino hydride (especially if neutral), is=20 the species which arrives on earth in the solar wind as a Hy bound=20 tightly with two quasi-particles, and is found in rainwater in ppm=20 quantities and in the oceans in ppb quantities). This is the entity=20 which provides many water anomalies. This also revives Robin's open question about the connection between=20 mass and charge wrt the hydrino. I suspect that - just as the photon has = "effective mass", we will soon have proof that in the same understanding = "charge" also has this same kind of "effective mass" -- whether or not=20 that charge-mass is measurable now or not. Instrumentation will improve=20 soon. On HSG it was argued by Eugene Wagner: > The root mean square computation is inconsistent > with the fundamental classical law of the preservation > of angular momentum. Plus, Mills computes it in a second > way which is equally incorrect. > See HSG #10337, January 6, 2006. That, and the fact that the vector sum must be less than the scalar sum (which yields hbar) suggests that the orbitsphere model comes up short in angular momentum. But it can be fixed. I suggest postulating an additional intrinsic angular momentum to make up the deficit. History has shown that that is a perfectly acceptable approach: SQM does so for spin. END of Wagner's message. Prediction: "intrinsic angular momentum" is itself related to charge=20 somehow, and also to the LST quasi-particle, and all will be resolved=20 once these three issues are integrated [the three are "intrinsic angular = momentum", charge, and the quasi-particle and the resolution will=20 explain an apparently chargeless component of the solar wind which has=20 mass near 1GeV, and "looks" more like a stable neutron than anything=20 else. That particle is the solar-derived non-Millsian hydrino-hydride. It should be renamed, and one choice for this revision of the Mills=20 hydrino is PQP2 (proton-quasi-particle sub2) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 09:26:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IGQdo9024769; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:26:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IGQX8Z024739; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:26:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:26:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:26:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <7vz3G.A.bCG.4gW_FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73867 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack > The issue of importance on Michel's mind is whether the word=20 > electrolysis is being used correctly. I must be inhabited by Faraday's ghost ;-) > He and I agree that the word=20 > describes initiation of a chemical reaction by passage of current. Yes but not any reaction, check the definition, a reaction of = decomposition. Decomposition of course is separation of a composed body into the = elements it is composed of, e.g. D2O -> D2 + 0.5 O2 > Thus,=20 > H2O can be electrolyzed. In fact, palladium can also be electrolyzed=20 > because it is chemically changed by passing current trough it in an=20 > electrolytic cell, something Faraday did not know. The palladium = reacts=20 > to form PdD and it dissolves in the solution. Therefore it is not decomposed. Palladium cannot be decomposed BTW, as = you know it is an element, not a composed body. > Both reactions are=20 > consistent with chemical reactions being initiated by flowing current. = > Therefore, it is correct to say that palladium is being electrolyzed. It would only be correct if it was decomposed into constituting = elements, which even if it was (it isn't because it can't as I said) = would be of course a minor effect compared to the main decomposition = that takes place, that of D2O, which would make your description about = as accurate as "Dissolution of a mug" to describe an experiment where = you dissolve sugar in your coffee. > The problem with Michel's approach is that he is unwilling to see = beyond=20 > the conventional and limited understanding of electrolysis while=20 > maintaining that only he is correct in how the word is used. Not just me, me and all dictionaries and textbooks which say that = electrolysis is electrochemical decomposition. Does this put an end to the controversy? Michel >=20 > Ed >=20 > Terry Blanton wrote: >=20 >> On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>=20 >>> In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday = BTW,=20 >>> the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) >>=20 >>=20 >> Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so bloody >> anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is French >> and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english = and >> will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her second >> language. >>=20 >> Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the process, >> she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug and >> aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our = ignorant >> bliss. >>=20 >> Terry >>=20 >>=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 11:08:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2II805K031266; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:08:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2II7wFr031238; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:07:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:07:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:10:37 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8i0kB.A.-nH.9_X_FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73868 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack > > > >>The issue of importance on Michel's mind is whether the word >>electrolysis is being used correctly. > > > I must be inhabited by Faraday's ghost ;-) > > >>He and I agree that the word >>describes initiation of a chemical reaction by passage of current. > > > Yes but not any reaction, check the definition, a reaction of decomposition. > Decomposition of course is separation of a composed body into the elements it is composed of, e.g. D2O -> D2 + 0.5 O2 No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also considered electrolysis. > > >>Thus, >>H2O can be electrolyzed. In fact, palladium can also be electrolyzed >>because it is chemically changed by passing current trough it in an >>electrolytic cell, something Faraday did not know. The palladium reacts >>to form PdD and it dissolves in the solution. > > > Therefore it is not decomposed. Palladium cannot be decomposed BTW, as you know it is an element, not a composed body. Palladium is converted from a metal to an ion. D2O is converted from an ion to neutral elements. The issue is only the direction of the reaction. > > >>Both reactions are >>consistent with chemical reactions being initiated by flowing current. >>Therefore, it is correct to say that palladium is being electrolyzed. > > > It would only be correct if it was decomposed into constituting elements, which even if it was (it isn't because it can't as I said) would be of course a minor effect compared to the main decomposition that takes place, that of D2O, which would make your description about as accurate as "Dissolution of a mug" to describe an experiment where you dissolve sugar in your coffee. > > >>The problem with Michel's approach is that he is unwilling to see beyond >>the conventional and limited understanding of electrolysis while >>maintaining that only he is correct in how the word is used. > > > Not just me, me and all dictionaries and textbooks which say that electrolysis is electrochemical decomposition. I suggest the dictionaries are not up to date or at least not complete. > > Does this put an end to the controversy? I hope so. Ed > > Michel > > >>Ed >> >>Terry Blanton wrote: >> >> >>>On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>> >>>>In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday BTW, >>>>the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) >>> >>> >>>Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so bloody >>>anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is French >>>and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english and >>>will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her second >>>language. >>> >>>Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the process, >>>she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug and >>>aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our ignorant >>>bliss. >>> >>>Terry >>> >>> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 12:15:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IJFpIx024405; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:15:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IJFoCx024390; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:15:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:15:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <45FD9BB3.29CBE3CC@centurytel.net> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:06:12 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> <45FD5EB3.1080401@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xoil7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xoil7" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73869 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Enclosed below is some interesting material on the oil control issue. Jack Smith --------- [More (Secret?) Orders for Al Maliki} http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/02/21/p14663 02/21/07 ``Western companies will officially control Iraq's oil soon [New Oil Law Means Victory in Iraq for Bush] by Ahmed Abdullah, Islam Online Nearly four years have passed since the U.S. sent its troops to 'liberate Iraq' through an illegal war, described by most analysts and experts as well as most of Iraqis, as a hidden attempt by the Bush administration, which claimed that reasons for the war was the former Iraqi leader's alleged link to Al Qaeda network and possession of Weapons of Mass Destruction, to lay hands on the country's oil riches. Today, the Iraqi government, under the control of the U.S., is considering a new oil law that would establish a framework for managing Iraq's oil wealth, the third-largest oil reserves in the world. Here Raed Jarrar, an Iraqi blogger and architect, who said he has obtained a copy of the new oil law, discusses the new legislation with Antonia Juhasz, author of "The Bush Agenda: Invading the World One Economy at a Time," where she uncovers the economic gains of the U.S. occupation of Iraq. When asked by Democracy Now's Amy Goodman about how he got a copy of the document and what it says, Mr. Jarrar, the Iraq Project Director for Global Exchange said that the document was leaked by Professor Fouad Al-Ameer and published on a website called al-ghad.org. And then it was leaked to other important websites like niqash.org and other places. There different copies of it. Some are scanned, and others of the original document, but it just hit the internet last week [week 3-12-07]. It said so many things. I don't think we can summarize it this short, because it's a very long document, around thirty pages. But majorly, there are three major points that I think we should talk about. Financially, it legalizes very unfair types of contracts that will put Iraq in very long-term contracts that can go up to thirty-five years and cause the loss of hundreds of billions of dollars from Iraqis for no cause. The second point is concerning Iraq's sovereignty. Iraq will not be capable of controlling the levels -- the limits of production, which means that Iraq cannot be a part of OPEC anymore. And Iraq will have this very complicated institution called the Federal Oil and Gas Council, that will have representatives from the foreign oil companies on the board of it, so representatives from, let's say, ExxonMobil and Shell and British Petroleum will be on the federal board of Iraq approving their own contracts. The Third point is the point about keeping Iraq's unity. The law is seen by many Iraqi analysts as a separation for Iraq fund. The law will authorize all of the regional and small provinces' authorities. It will give them the final say to deal with the oil, instead of giving this final say to central federal government, so it will open the doors for splitting Iraq into three regions or even maybe three states in the very near future. On the other hand, Antonia Juhasz, who was also asked by Amy Goodman about the significance of such law for Western oil companies, said that it "certainly opens the door to U.S. oil companies and the Bush administration winning a very large piece of their objective of going to war in Iraq, at least winning it on paper." The law does almost word for word what was laid out in the Baker-Hamilton recommendation ... which is, at the very basic level, to turn Iraq's nationalized oil system, the model that 90% of the world's oil is governed by, take its nationalized oil system and turn it into a commercial system fully open to foreign corporate investment on terms as of yet to be decided. So it leaves vague this very important question of what type of contracts will the Iraqi government use. But what it leaves clear is that basically every level of the oil industry will be open to private foreign companies. [A joke: What is the definition of a democracy in the Middle East? Answer: A government that gives control of its oil fields to the U. S. by "legal" contract.] It introduces this very unique model, which is that ultimate decision making on contracts rests with a new council to be set up in Iraq, and sitting on that council will be representatives -- executives, in fact -- of oil companies, both foreign and domestic. In addition, it does maintain the Iraq National Oil Company, but gives the Iraq National Oil Company almost no preference. It's almost in all cases just another oil company among lots of other companies, including U.S. oil companies. And this council, the new oil and gas council, is going to be the decision making body to determine what kind of contract the Iraqis can sign, and all contract models are still on the table, yet to be determined. I think that's left vague or open, so that the very necessary criticism to earlier drafts of the law, which included specifically production sharing agreements, might be quieted. But the law definitely sets up a very dangerous setup for Iraq's future economic stability, economic development, and certainly sets the stage for a tremendous amount of increased hostility and violence to U.S. soldiers positioned on the ground, as being seen as the implementers of this oil hijack. Asked about the advocates' argument for Western company involvement, that they need to come into Iraq to kick-start the oil development, Juhasz said that Iraq's oil development has actually been going quite well since the invasion under the guidance of the Iraqis themselves. Prior to the war, Iraq produced 2.5 million barrels of oil a day. Since the war, it's been producing about 2.2 million barrels of oil a day. That's definitely dropped most recently, because of the intense violence in Iraq of late. And there have definitely been targeted actions against the oil system as demonstrations of opposition to the occupation. So I believe there is a very concrete argument that can be made that the best thing that Iraq can do right now to see its oil infrastructure secure and pumping at a reasonable level is to see the U.S. occupation end. Given that Iraq's oil only costs less than a dollar per barrel to pump and oil is selling at over $50 per barrel, the Iraqis are already making a tremendous return on their oil. The danger is that under the different models of oil contract that are being put on the table, that the Iraqis would lose the vast majority of that profit to the foreign oil companies. Now, just really quickly, Iraqis have lost a fair amount of expertise, technical know-how, as technology has increased over the past eleven years and the Iraqis were shut out because of the sanctions. The answer to that is found in the models put forward by their neighbors, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and Iran, which are technical service contracts that countries sign with foreign companies to bring in that expertise, but under very limited time frames and very specific economic benefits to the companies and to the country, not these 35-year contracts, as Raed said, and the potential for vast profits leaving the country. "No one in Iraq knows about the law," said Raed Jarrar. The law has been kept in a very low profile, and there is a huge propaganda campaign by the government trying to portray the law as straight and good for Iraq, a law that will turn Iraq into heaven on earth, because it will bring all of the foreign investments. Even parliamentarians in the Iraqi government, the ones who will have the final say to pass this law, haven't received a copy of this law yet. I sent them the copy three or four days ago, and I sent a copy to many of the other Iraqi bloggers and journalists, because I think it's very important to raise awareness about this and make it an issue. The Iraqi government and the Bush administration are trying to keep a very low profile in Iraq on this law. I think they're planning just to, you know, surprise the parliamentarians one morning and have them vote on it without any knowledge of what the law actually causes.'' Ahmed Abdullah ---------------- http://www.slate.com/id/2161719/ Third Man By Daniel Politi Posted Tuesday, March 13, 2007, at 5:44 AM ET ``In an op-ed piece in the NEW YORKT, Antonia Juhasz says the big winners of the Iraqi oil law that is currently under discussion would be the international oil companies. The law would allow companies to take control of much of Iraq's oil "for a generation or more," and there are no requirements for any of the earnings to be invested back into Iraq. Juhasz also suggests that companies could take advantage of the current violence in Iraq to sign contracts now when the "government is at its weakest and then wait at least two years before setting foot in the country." ---------------- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/opinion/13juhasz.html'_r=1&oref=slogin Op-Ed Contributor ``Whose Oil Is It, Anyway? By ANTONIA JUHASZ Published: March 13, 2007 San Francisco Jacob Magraw-Mickelson TODAY more than three-quarters of the world's oil is owned and controlled by governments. It wasn't always this way. Until about 35 years ago, the world's oil was largely in the hands of seven corporations based in the United States and Europe. Those seven have since merged into four: ExxonMobil, Chevron, Shell and BP. They are among the world's largest and most powerful financial empires. But ever since they lost their exclusive control of the oil to the governments, the companies have been trying to get it back. Iraq's oil reserves ' thought to be the second largest in the world ' have always been high on the corporate wish list. In 1998, Kenneth Derr, then chief executive of Chevron, told a San Francisco audience, 'Iraq possesses huge reserves of oil and gas ' reserves I'd love Chevron to have access to.' A new oil law set to go before the Iraqi Parliament this month would, if passed, go a long way toward helping the oil companies achieve their goal. The Iraq hydrocarbon law would take the majority of Iraq's oil out of the exclusive hands of the Iraqi government and open it to international oil companies for a generation or more. In March 2001, the National Energy Policy Development Group (better known as Vice President Dick Cheney's energy task force), which included executives of America's largest energy companies, recommended that the United States government support initiatives by Middle Eastern countries 'to open up areas of their energy sectors to foreign investment.' One invasion and a great deal of political engineering by the Bush administration later, this is exactly what the proposed Iraq oil law would achieve. It does so to the benefit of the companies, but to the great detriment of Iraq's economy, democracy and sovereignty. Since the invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration has been aggressive in shepherding the oil law toward passage. It is one of the president's benchmarks for the government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, a fact that Mr. Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Gen. William Casey, Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and other administration officials are publicly emphasizing with increasing urgency. The administration has highlighted the law's revenue sharing plan, under which the central government would distribute oil revenues throughout the nation on a per capita basis. But the benefits of this excellent proposal are radically undercut by the law's many other provisions -- these allow much (if not most) of Iraq's oil revenues to flow out of the country and into the pockets of international oil companies. The law would transform Iraq's oil industry from a nationalized model closed to American oil companies except for limited (although highly lucrative) marketing contracts, into a commercial industry, all-but-privatized, that is fully open to all international oil companies. The Iraq National Oil Company would have exclusive control of just 17 of Iraq's 80 known oil fields, leaving two-thirds of known ' and all of its as yet undiscovered ' fields open to foreign control. The foreign companies would not have to invest their earnings in the Iraqi economy, partner with Iraqi companies, hire Iraqi workers or share new technologies. They could even ride out Iraq's current 'instability' by signing contracts now, while the Iraqi government is at its weakest, and then wait at least two years before even setting foot in the country. The vast majority of Iraq's oil would then be left underground for at least two years rather than being used for the country's economic development. The international oil companies could also be offered some of the most corporate-friendly contracts in the world, including what are called production sharing agreements. These agreements are the oil industry's preferred model, but are roundly rejected by all the top oil producing countries in the Middle East because they grant long-term contracts (20 to 35 years in the case of Iraq's draft law) and greater control, ownership and profits to the companies than other models. In fact, they are used for only approximately 12 percent of the world's oil. Iraq's neighbors Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia maintain nationalized oil systems and have outlawed foreign control over oil development. They all hire international oil companies as contractors to provide specific services as needed, for a limited duration, and without giving the foreign company any direct interest in the oil produced. Iraqis may very well choose to use the expertise and experience of international oil companies. They are most likely to do so in a manner that best serves their own needs if they are freed from the tremendous external pressure being exercised by the Bush administration, the oil corporations ' and the presence of 140,000 members of the American military. Iraq's five trade union federations, representing hundreds of thousands of workers, released a statement opposing the law and rejecting 'the handing of control over oil to foreign companies, which would undermine the sovereignty of the state and the dignity of the Iraqi people.' They ask for more time, less pressure and a chance at the democracy they have been promised. Antonia Juhasz, an analyst with Oil Change International, a watchdog group, is the author of 'The Bush Agenda: Invading the World, One Economy at a Time.''' ---------------- http://dg.specificclick.net/jensondemo/smServlet?u=http%3A//www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/kucinich-seeks-to-strip-o_b_43398.html&r=http%3A//news.google.com/news%3Fclient%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26q%3DAntonia%2520Juhasz%26sourceid%3Dopera%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26um%3D1%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwn Huffington Post, NEW YORK March 14, 2007 ``Kucinich Seeks to Strip Oil Law Benchmark from Supplemental [Appropriation] In a letter to fellow Members of Congress, Representative Dennis Kucinich writes: "The primary function of the oil law currently being considered by the Iraqi government will be to open Iraqi oil fields to private foreign companies, depriving the Iraqi people of a necessary source of national income." Kucinich has announced his intention to offer an amendment on the floor to strip out the oil law benchmark from the supplemental [appropriation]. It's quite plausible that with a little public attention and lobbying, this amendment could pass. It also offers an opportunity for labor unions, anti-privatization and global justice activists to jump into the Congressional debate. Of course, it's up to the Iraqis to decide what kind of system they want to have for controlling their oil wealth. The point is that they are currently being pressed to accept an IMF regime designed by foreign consultants for the benefit of multinational companies while they are under foreign military occupation. Thus, you don't have to be "anti-privatization" or even anti-war to support the Kucinich amendment. You just have to be pro-democracy ...'' www.justforeignpolicy.org From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 13:46:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IKk9H5026776; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:46:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IKk7Tt026759; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:46:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:46:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: PQP2 was: Di-Ozone Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:46:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6s8rv2pq2drcvpoli9bsomvkavkjpfuduj@4ax.com> References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> <45FD5EB3.1080401@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45FD5EB3.1080401@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:46:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <5n2DF.A.CiG.PUa_FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:45:55 -0700: Hi, [snip] >That, and the fact that the vector sum must be less >than the scalar sum (which yields hbar) suggests >that the orbitsphere model comes up short in >angular momentum. > >But it can be fixed. I suggest postulating an additional >intrinsic angular momentum to make up the deficit. >History has shown that that is a perfectly acceptable >approach: SQM does so for spin. > This is not necessary. Shrinkage occurs as part of a reaction in which at= least three particles participate:- The original hydrogen atom (or hydrino), = the catalyst atom, and the electron ionized from the catalyst atom. By = varying the angle at which the electron is ejected, any amount of change in angular = momentum can be accommodated. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 13:47:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IKlYtu032438; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:47:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IKlVSS032378; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:47:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:47:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: PQP2 was: Di-Ozone Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:47:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5a9rv29h8bn4et5p5rs2uu57v30f3qleup@4ax.com> References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> <45FD5EB3.1080401@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45FD5EB3.1080401@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:47:28 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:45:55 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Prediction: "intrinsic angular momentum" is itself related to charge=20 >somehow, and also to the LST quasi-particle, and all will be resolved=20 >once these three issues are integrated [the three are "intrinsic angular= =20 >momentum", charge, and the quasi-particle and the resolution will=20 >explain an apparently chargeless component of the solar wind which has=20 >mass near 1GeV, and "looks" more like a stable neutron than anything=20 >else. That particle is the solar-derived non-Millsian hydrino-hydride. Hydrino-hydride carries a negative charge. > >It should be renamed, and one choice for this revision of the Mills=20 >hydrino is PQP2 (proton-quasi-particle sub2) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 15:38:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2IMbs9c018954; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:37:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2IMbq58018934; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:37:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:37:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=oUz+PYL2WHMPTzySIZhLHHnM33O02E8qbtJ3e/zGoZc2IjVe4PG/6zxmMxID2rJKKP0J8g63LZQzvujRblLIsNZE5xu8PkYFvpV43htN78MTKfsKSt56rd0W/ZWvDszK+HTglpmK9I1JpjIxYfbJjnfUsdQ0v0GCIHaCNM1AG1I=; X-YMail-OSG: 9YV.tQUVM1n.9IljZ0HEw5Tomw6LfYu_flzr08YX9MAt15KNSuRwO3NTuoPJCWn4XUh5EwECGlAUGJK26TAAhBnfA_h8xIf0BqyE2fLRLmPPy5wTXH6HjmZp.2OZ6ZF1ywv57ovNHjkmVNc- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/368.8 YahooMailWebService/0.6.132.8 Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:37:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <954550.37277.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <4VvOEC.A.onE._8b_FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: PQP2 was: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: Robin =0A=0A>Prediction: "intrinsic angular momentum" is itself related to= charge =0A>somehow, and also to the LST quasi-particle, and all will be re= solved =0A>once these three issues are integrated [the three are "intrinsic= angular =0A>momentum", charge, and the quasi-particle and the resolution w= ill =0A>explain an apparently chargeless component of the solar wind which = has =0A>mass near 1GeV, and "looks" more like a stable neutron than anythin= g =0A>else. That particle is the solar-derived non-Millsian hydrino-hydride= .=0A=0ARvS: Hydrino-hydride carries a negative charge.=0A=0A=0AHello. Did = you get caught in the Oz vortex? or was the wording not sufficiently lucid = (the likely problem) =0A=0AThis particle - the solar-derived non-Millsia= n hydrino-hydride is neutral.=0A=0AThe particle in question (revised partic= le from Mills' erroneous assumption) is the PQP2 (proton-quasi-particle sub= 2) which is a solar-derived non-Millsian hydrino-hydride in this hypothesi= s. =0A=0AIt is hypothetical, like the (erroneous) Hydrino hydride, and cons= ists of a proton strongly bound to two quasi-particle-electrons, of the L.S= .T. variety, and has zero overall charge, since the fractional negative (ex= pressed) charges of the two QPs are balanced by the proton's positive. That= is what makes it a non-Millsian hydrino-hydride. It is neutral.=0A=0AWhat = I am saying (hypothesizing), in effect, is that Mills got it wrong - at lea= st insofar as the solar (natural) variety of this species is concerned. Per= haps he knows of an earthly manifestation which is charged negatively, but = there is no evidence of that in any published experiment AFIK. =0A=0AFor th= e moment, at least, this lack of evidence for a charged variety allows me t= o affirm with some smugness, that he got it wrong.=0A=0AJ.=0A=0A=0A From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 16:41:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2INfQQg016279; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:41:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2INfOx1016261; Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:41:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:41:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=RVUi/TiyxMHffHHNOWwk3/INwhVfGNLk8OVSsK93fNMt649X0AzsLuPp9WM6IF3V0btphZcl0jYU6smJoMsYkjknQxfFq+xwOHFHTU25ASErzTWl9zqf/52XAfWiPY3AJTHP/k9mniTLW9oWHFgsrjnOOAnatStncX2xv1H2pTg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rtfeqvTcxRGrCf6Zmf5o4Itqs8e9cthxV3Lt1TDhOx2Vj4D/QhEUqlTy4/uq7z44NSdIdtc1FStJlc8VFOCfniehgkBumw/F+LY6QZkc5TZknflXm9My1TRii2ADSmB/jhHOj/IvmxiUTiMqT7Gsr9kc4LpQCzMsbpdUAYooXYY= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:41:22 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: PQP2 was: Di-Ozone In-Reply-To: <954550.37277.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <954550.37277.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/18/07, Jones Beene wrote: > For the moment, at least, this lack of evidence for a charged variety allows me to affirm with some smugness, that he got it wrong. "smugness noun an excessive feeling of self-satisfaction" Winter is almost over. It's time to get out more. T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 00:34:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2J7Ymcl022485; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:34:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2J7YjVU022453; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:34:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:34:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <001001c76956$d3a24700$c905a8c0@xptower> References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> <001001c76956$d3a24700$c905a8c0@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Zachary Jones Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:35:47 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Resent-Message-ID: <84NapD.A.oeF.U0j_FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: On Mar 18, 2007, at 5:13 AM, R.C.Macaulay wrote: > Last year we tested a high speed water vortex inducer that produced > a near perfect cylinder shaped vortex. This shape differs from a > parabolic "tornado" shape we are all familar with. The cylinder > shape has an "eyewall" like a hurricane. This cylinder shape > permits a better examination of free electrons and a host of > "rabbit holes" one can travel and become mis-directed. Richard, Any interesting observations? Zak From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 02:33:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2J9XRnj011433; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:33:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2J9XM71011398; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:33:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:33:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:33:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <_f_hDD.A.5xC.hjl_FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) Status: RO X-Status: > No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also=20 > considered electrolysis. If by this you mean that electroplating = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating is not electrical = decomposition you are quite mistaken Ed, it is. What decomposes in = electroplating is --as in any electrolysis-- the electrolyte, a metal = salt solution whose metal component plates out on the cathode, by the = dissolved positive metal ion acquiring one or more electrons from the = power supply's negative pole to become solid metal. In one technique (but not all) electroplating also involves dissolution = of the _anode_ as a way to replenish the ions in the bath. However in = P&F experiments such as yours palladium is the _cathode_ so this = phenomenon doesn't occur, therefore it cannot be invoked to say that = palladium is being "electrolyzed". Controversy solved? Michel =20 Lobbying for a proper use of the terms of electrochemistry --terms on = which, which may explain my sensitivity to their misuse, I have become = by chance a specialist cf my contributions to the anode and cathode = articles on wikipedia-- and more generally for "calling a cat a cat" = (sorry for being such a smug aristocratic French smart ass Terry) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >=20 >=20 > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:52 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>The issue of importance on Michel's mind is whether the word=20 >>>electrolysis is being used correctly. >>=20 >>=20 >> I must be inhabited by Faraday's ghost ;-) >>=20 >>=20 >>>He and I agree that the word=20 >>>describes initiation of a chemical reaction by passage of current. >>=20 >>=20 >> Yes but not any reaction, check the definition, a reaction of = decomposition. >> Decomposition of course is separation of a composed body into the = elements it is composed of, e.g. D2O -> D2 + 0.5 O2 >=20 > No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also=20 > considered electrolysis. >>=20 >>=20 >>>Thus,=20 >>>H2O can be electrolyzed. In fact, palladium can also be electrolyzed=20 >>>because it is chemically changed by passing current trough it in an=20 >>>electrolytic cell, something Faraday did not know. The palladium = reacts=20 >>>to form PdD and it dissolves in the solution. >>=20 >>=20 >> Therefore it is not decomposed. Palladium cannot be decomposed BTW, = as you know it is an element, not a composed body. >=20 > Palladium is converted from a metal to an ion. D2O is converted from = an=20 > ion to neutral elements. The issue is only the direction of the = reaction. >>=20 >>=20 >>>Both reactions are=20 >>>consistent with chemical reactions being initiated by flowing = current.=20 >>>Therefore, it is correct to say that palladium is being electrolyzed. >>=20 >>=20 >> It would only be correct if it was decomposed into constituting = elements, which even if it was (it isn't because it can't as I said) = would be of course a minor effect compared to the main decomposition = that takes place, that of D2O, which would make your description about = as accurate as "Dissolution of a mug" to describe an experiment where = you dissolve sugar in your coffee. >>=20 >>=20 >>>The problem with Michel's approach is that he is unwilling to see = beyond=20 >>>the conventional and limited understanding of electrolysis while=20 >>>maintaining that only he is correct in how the word is used. >>=20 >>=20 >> Not just me, me and all dictionaries and textbooks which say that = electrolysis is electrochemical decomposition. >=20 > I suggest the dictionaries are not up to date or at least not = complete. >=20 >>=20 >> Does this put an end to the controversy? >=20 > I hope so. >=20 > Ed >>=20 >> Michel >>=20 >>=20 >>>Ed >>> >>>Terry Blanton wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday = BTW,=20 >>>>>the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) >>>> >>>> >>>>Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so = bloody >>>>anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is French >>>>and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english = and >>>>will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her = second >>>>language. >>>> >>>>Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the process, >>>>she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug and >>>>aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our = ignorant >>>>bliss. >>>> >>>>Terry >>>> >>>> >>> >>=20 >>=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 04:39:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2JBdAe7010720; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 04:39:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2JBd7sK010707; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 04:39:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 04:39:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tHuqGPyIQSWWNmYkGSt+giJnmR7C9+6T1kIuQCQaO7HXSneZo8TuRq/o9GGXLdQmwq1R17M4hy53g0DrwfuAh2lFtkfSjKHB4RLQ+F4qwyaLIyYo23gayxkk1hiGNKqGMDzl8+rb0NwIRPwTEg5ZYx1EKx+iuHWzx1WIQ/gf4Wo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ssDgM5i36UAM6+2YjP0xXxtNlMvEjKlIQPeMZ6Wme8RNS+sMcShOFpXwIC9T2hWdH0xttlD93CR1LUtWQiDLSWtYg55JmNO2zTVrhgfR1t8ldSbn/5BpEeQvnsAMGvW7zoH3K3W/oDnjD+W0225M2ykoEhCqZDqaOUQwjfFsUgg= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:39:06 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) In-Reply-To: <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/19/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > (sorry for being such a smug aristocratic French smart ass Terry) (You should have placed a comma after 'smug', 'aristrocratic' and 'ass'.) I understand it is your nature. You can no more help it than a frog striking his ass every time he jumps (assuming he has his legs still). ;-) T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 05:21:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2JCLVQn032355; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:21:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2JCLUSg032343; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:21:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:21:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c76a21$1cc1b3b0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <43A4E77D-D6EE-4A27-87E2-DC0BDC1097AC@newalexandria.org> <45FC2CCF.8090703@pacbell.net> <285A9935-5875-417E-81C3-5B881D9CAFDE@newalexandria.org> <001001c76956$d3a24700$c905a8c0@xptower> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:21:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: > On Mar 18, 2007, at 5:13 AM, R.C.Macaulay wrote: > >> Last year we tested a high speed water vortex inducer that produced a >> near perfect cylinder shaped vortex. This shape differs from a parabolic >> "tornado" shape we are all familar with. The cylinder shape has an >> "eyewall" like a hurricane. This cylinder shape permits a better >> examination of free electrons and a host of "rabbit holes" one can >> travel and become mis-directed. Zac wrote.. > Any interesting observations? > Howdy Zac, Noticed when the test rig is immersed in a square tank a number of random sympathetic water vortex are generated. These form and decay over a short period. By random, I mean they may be horizontal, diagonal or parallel, however, mostly horizontal shaped hovering in the northwest quadrant of the tank. We believe they may have entirely different properties than the main cylinder. This year's plans include examining a "cute" trick using a pair of resonating synchronizing "tuning forks" for ultrasonic studies plus magnets and microwave if we can ever figure out where and how to aim. Fun stuff !! Designing a modular system of mechanical components for the next stage of the tests began late last year. Since we are a privately owned company with internal funding and make a practice of NOT patenting new designs, we can function uninhibited like a "skunk works" mentality. What is strange about the effort is that we spent most of the past 3 years research budget on the monster and received only indirect benefit from the work. We spent a fraction on a new combo flow metering control valve and already have it in production. Back in 1980 the businesses that were using computers wound up owning those that didn't. This decade will demonstrate the companies with active research budgets won't own firms that don't.. there won't be any "other" firms. Soon gone will be competitor number 3 and up. In most categories of industry there will be a sole supplier. In the auto world it will be Toyota. get the picture? The fun part is that GE Capital owns most industries worldwide now... not the stock.. just the paper, which is tantamount to ownership with out the marriage liscense. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 07:45:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2JEjl7O013181; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:45:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2JEjdEC013146; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:45:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:45:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FEA2B3.40503@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:48:19 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >>No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also >>considered electrolysis. > > > If by this you mean that electroplating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating is not electrical decomposition you are quite mistaken Ed, it is. What decomposes in electroplating is --as in any electrolysis-- the electrolyte, a metal salt solution whose metal component plates out on the cathode, by the dissolved positive metal ion acquiring one or more electrons from the power supply's negative pole to become solid metal. > > In one technique (but not all) electroplating also involves dissolution of the _anode_ as a way to replenish the ions in the bath. However in P&F experiments such as yours palladium is the _cathode_ so this phenomenon doesn't occur, therefore it cannot be invoked to say that palladium is being "electrolyzed". > > Controversy solved? I now see the problem, you have not read or believe what I write. First of all, I did not say that electroplating was not decomposition. I said that electroplating is a another form of electrolysis. As to the issue regarding palladium, palladium does in fact dissolve as the cathode. The process begins by Li plating on and reacting with the Pd to form soluble alloys. These dissolve and the Pd is replated back on the cathode surface. The process is complex, but involves decomposition and electric current flowing through a solution. Rather than insisting on your interpretation being the only correct one, I suggest you expand your viewpoint. I might point out I have been studying electrochemistry for the past 18 years and do understand the subject. Ed > > Michel > > Lobbying for a proper use of the terms of electrochemistry --terms on which, which may explain my sensitivity to their misuse, I have become by chance a specialist cf my contributions to the anode and cathode articles on wikipedia-- and more generally for "calling a cat a cat" (sorry for being such a smug aristocratic French smart ass Terry) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 7:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack > > > >> >>Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>To: >>>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:52 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The issue of importance on Michel's mind is whether the word >>>>electrolysis is being used correctly. >>> >>> >>>I must be inhabited by Faraday's ghost ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>>>He and I agree that the word >>>>describes initiation of a chemical reaction by passage of current. >>> >>> >>>Yes but not any reaction, check the definition, a reaction of decomposition. >>>Decomposition of course is separation of a composed body into the elements it is composed of, e.g. D2O -> D2 + 0.5 O2 >> >>No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also >>considered electrolysis. >> >>> >>>>Thus, >>>>H2O can be electrolyzed. In fact, palladium can also be electrolyzed >>>>because it is chemically changed by passing current trough it in an >>>>electrolytic cell, something Faraday did not know. The palladium reacts >>>>to form PdD and it dissolves in the solution. >>> >>> >>>Therefore it is not decomposed. Palladium cannot be decomposed BTW, as you know it is an element, not a composed body. >> >>Palladium is converted from a metal to an ion. D2O is converted from an >>ion to neutral elements. The issue is only the direction of the reaction. >> >>> >>>>Both reactions are >>>>consistent with chemical reactions being initiated by flowing current. >>>>Therefore, it is correct to say that palladium is being electrolyzed. >>> >>> >>>It would only be correct if it was decomposed into constituting elements, which even if it was (it isn't because it can't as I said) would be of course a minor effect compared to the main decomposition that takes place, that of D2O, which would make your description about as accurate as "Dissolution of a mug" to describe an experiment where you dissolve sugar in your coffee. >>> >>> >>> >>>>The problem with Michel's approach is that he is unwilling to see beyond >>>>the conventional and limited understanding of electrolysis while >>>>maintaining that only he is correct in how the word is used. >>> >>> >>>Not just me, me and all dictionaries and textbooks which say that electrolysis is electrochemical decomposition. >> >>I suggest the dictionaries are not up to date or at least not complete. >> >> >>>Does this put an end to the controversy? >> >>I hope so. >> >>Ed >> >>>Michel >>> >>> >>> >>>>Ed >>>> >>>>Terry Blanton wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday BTW, >>>>>>the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so bloody >>>>>anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is French >>>>>and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english and >>>>>will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her second >>>>>language. >>>>> >>>>>Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the process, >>>>>she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug and >>>>>aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our ignorant >>>>>bliss. >>>>> >>>>>Terry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 08:55:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2JFt7KC011327; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:55:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2JFst0X011261; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:54:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:54:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <12e701c76a3e$eea3fe70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FEA2B3.40503@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:54:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: So, this complex process you just described, whereby Li plates on and = reacts with the Pd to form soluble alloys, these dissolve and the Pd is = replated back on the cathode surface --- which indeed involves = decomposition and electric current flowing through a solution, just like = electrolysis! --- is in fact what your paper talks about principally, = and that's why it says "electrolysis of palladium", right? Oh dear, how = unfortunate, you forgot to mention this process in the paper! I hope Profs. Fleischman and Pons did mention it in their paper, since = you write in page 1 that in 1989 they too "electrolyzed a platinum = anode, a palladium cathode, using a LiOD + D2O electrolyte". Note they = seem to have beaten you, they even managed to electrolyze platinum, will = you please explain the detailed process too? Apart from that, any electrolysis of heavy water going on, accessorily? = ;-) Thanks for the good laugh Ed :)))) Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy = water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) >=20 >=20 > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >>>No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also=20 >>>considered electrolysis. >>=20 >>=20 >> If by this you mean that electroplating = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating is not electrical = decomposition you are quite mistaken Ed, it is. What decomposes in = electroplating is --as in any electrolysis-- the electrolyte, a metal = salt solution whose metal component plates out on the cathode, by the = dissolved positive metal ion acquiring one or more electrons from the = power supply's negative pole to become solid metal. >>=20 >> In one technique (but not all) electroplating also involves = dissolution of the _anode_ as a way to replenish the ions in the bath. = However in P&F experiments such as yours palladium is the _cathode_ so = this phenomenon doesn't occur, therefore it cannot be invoked to say = that palladium is being "electrolyzed". >>=20 >> Controversy solved? >=20 >=20 > I now see the problem, you have not read or believe what I write. = First=20 > of all, I did not say that electroplating was not decomposition. I = said=20 > that electroplating is a another form of electrolysis. As to the = issue=20 > regarding palladium, palladium does in fact dissolve as the cathode. = The=20 > process begins by Li plating on and reacting with the Pd to form = soluble=20 > alloys. These dissolve and the Pd is replated back on the cathode=20 > surface. The process is complex, but involves decomposition and = electric=20 > current flowing through a solution. Rather than insisting on your=20 > interpretation being the only correct one, I suggest you expand your=20 > viewpoint. I might point out I have been studying electrochemistry for = > the past 18 years and do understand the subject. >=20 > Ed >>=20 >> Michel =20 >>=20 >> Lobbying for a proper use of the terms of electrochemistry --terms on = which, which may explain my sensitivity to their misuse, I have become = by chance a specialist cf my contributions to the anode and cathode = articles on wikipedia-- and more generally for "calling a cat a cat" = (sorry for being such a smug aristocratic French smart ass Terry) >>=20 >>=20 >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 7:10 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> >>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>> >>>>----- Original Message -----=20 >>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:52 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The issue of importance on Michel's mind is whether the word=20 >>>>>electrolysis is being used correctly. >>>> >>>> >>>>I must be inhabited by Faraday's ghost ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>He and I agree that the word=20 >>>>>describes initiation of a chemical reaction by passage of current. >>>> >>>> >>>>Yes but not any reaction, check the definition, a reaction of = decomposition. >>>>Decomposition of course is separation of a composed body into the = elements it is composed of, e.g. D2O -> D2 + 0.5 O2 >>> >>>No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also=20 >>>considered electrolysis. >>> >>>> >>>>>Thus,=20 >>>>>H2O can be electrolyzed. In fact, palladium can also be = electrolyzed=20 >>>>>because it is chemically changed by passing current trough it in an = >>>>>electrolytic cell, something Faraday did not know. The palladium = reacts=20 >>>>>to form PdD and it dissolves in the solution. >>>> >>>> >>>>Therefore it is not decomposed. Palladium cannot be decomposed BTW, = as you know it is an element, not a composed body. >>> >>>Palladium is converted from a metal to an ion. D2O is converted from = an=20 >>>ion to neutral elements. The issue is only the direction of the = reaction. >>> >>>> >>>>>Both reactions are=20 >>>>>consistent with chemical reactions being initiated by flowing = current.=20 >>>>>Therefore, it is correct to say that palladium is being = electrolyzed. >>>> >>>> >>>>It would only be correct if it was decomposed into constituting = elements, which even if it was (it isn't because it can't as I said) = would be of course a minor effect compared to the main decomposition = that takes place, that of D2O, which would make your description about = as accurate as "Dissolution of a mug" to describe an experiment where = you dissolve sugar in your coffee. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The problem with Michel's approach is that he is unwilling to see = beyond=20 >>>>>the conventional and limited understanding of electrolysis while=20 >>>>>maintaining that only he is correct in how the word is used. >>>> >>>> >>>>Not just me, me and all dictionaries and textbooks which say that = electrolysis is electrochemical decomposition. >>> >>>I suggest the dictionaries are not up to date or at least not = complete. >>> >>> >>>>Does this put an end to the controversy? >>> >>>I hope so. >>> >>>Ed >>> >>>>Michel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>>Terry Blanton wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday = BTW,=20 >>>>>>>the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so = bloody >>>>>>anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is = French >>>>>>and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english = and >>>>>>will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her = second >>>>>>language. >>>>>> >>>>>>Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the = process, >>>>>>she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug = and >>>>>>aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our = ignorant >>>>>>bliss. >>>>>> >>>>>>Terry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>=20 >>=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 14:19:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2JLJDuL011818; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:19:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2JLJ6Zp011785; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:19:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:19:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=glrdo+TKd3R3i+P9Dm07i5aK5/3Iw29OIf6r4EqNJNYI+LkTw8zotShM4i87KZmjmoAFgSwK7OPflSVUdYRilGbdXFH07dLgvsc0j3OyKTCvkFh4CoMqgGClHVY+utP4bdPkioV7t8v9ufWIlDXzPywmkOtily+mRbRXoK1JgRA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=OxFT5/Bj7xHpSZGMVn0Q7Qla1p3/zqRvJJz/AvBqdNOFnxN7uWZFX0orKBfJNv1ZjUB6bhila0tx/7WiipfHak6O0EZLCIQxqwesgJm4ZuH04PC263Oq52dZMMRk2d0eJR7aDK9CUd+MeAuL1vSnJYtTOpP2EVjb4uCWhnWuOJI= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:19:04 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Randi Box Status: O X-Status: Randi owes this geek $1M: http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/ Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 15:48:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2JMmITj018088; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:48:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2JMmFwN018056; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:48:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:48:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [220.238.27.71] X-Originating-Email: [dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <0d8001c76807$15ac6d70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Dean McGowan" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:48:12 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2007 22:48:13.0966 (UTC) FILETIME=[AD4FDAE0:01C76A78] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Am I incorrect in assuming that a particle travelling at the speed of light has infinite mass ? Dean ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Michel Jullian" Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:09:43 +0100 Sure it is quantized, but this doesn't make it "apparent". Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone > > If light was literally a projectile, then it should be literally subject > to the laws of mechanics and momentum changes should vary continuously. > However, we know empirically that light of a particular wavelength > can only bring about discrete changes of momentum. > > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Well, it does bounce back from the object (e.g. solar sail) it imparted >> momentum to, with total momentum being conserved and all. >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:09 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone >> >> >>> In my natural philosophy, light has an _apparent_ momentum, because the >>> nature of light is such that it refuses to be subjected to a mechanical >>> force. (I do mean "refuses" and not simply "resists"). >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>>> For a projectile what matters is momentum, and light does have momentum, >>>> that's what pushes solar sails. >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure >>>> >>>> Michel >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "R.C.Macaulay" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 PM >>>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone >>>> >>>> >>>>> Howdy Jones, >>>>> >>>>> You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. One >>>>> must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before launching >>>>> into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to Ormus... and >>>>> that is a stretch. >>>>> >>>>> Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", it can >>>>> be >>>>> taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile force" >>>>> qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a socalled >>>>> "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better >>>>> constructed >>>>> railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange beasty >>>>> indeed.. Why so ? >>>>> Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or impact. >>>>> Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the flesh,eyes >>>>> and >>>>> tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) Zec: 14. >>>>> This >>>>> description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the projectile >>>>> does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. >>>>> >>>>> You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a new >>>>> method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. He does >>>>> describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. Reminds me of >>>>> the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters in the >>>>> pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool thereafter >>>>> would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex and only >>>>> the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was destroyed >>>>> by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex properties >>>>> dissappear? >>>>> >>>>> Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky still >>>>> left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " thinkin >>>>> drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. >>>>> >>>>> Richard >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 16:00:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2JN0VUq019196; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:00:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2JN0SkI019174; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:00:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:00:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a53n+m6P8XJJZlDBDncbkMRHl1r/XsOzjpRq3AP5VEzzbkmc7sUZBqjdqDdkf+3ekXjU75lBfocxbJ/c2UMepnB8wGvAqypM+cCCzT0HJOFHqQUB8jrOAbB3ZdTfjL3r51xLbkWcZC9n+JjAC01gGy+SQ34sfW9wsTFCoccMZ5w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=j2jZCi54CmSdhbdF6jwzTESLhh2yRazeKDU8UZUVd9thtmmFCpHdQfH/VLpeLEpgsSnxi/jM4n7h1gpKyfjhlPRTQyTCTiyzQcG8EfeBlX4bglF1ZLSyg+LSYVVdnx5ArppkmOi8OQerdggV//mk+ZAYCkw6XcY4gZS09WfdqUA= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:00:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <0d8001c76807$15ac6d70$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: <1r8OMB.A.arE.LYx_FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/19/07, Dean McGowan wrote: > Am I incorrect in assuming that a particle travelling at the speed of light > has infinite mass ? There you go . . . trying to destroy everything that Richard Feynman did to earn his Nobel. Next, you'll be asking about the electron mass and it's dynamic spin momentum. Dicky normalized this ages ago. He simply waved his hands and the infinities went away. Please, don't remind us of how stupid we really are. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 16:20:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2JNK1Ap028799; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:20:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2JN4kh8021682; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:04:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:04:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [220.238.27.71] X-Originating-Email: [dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Dean McGowan" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:04:41 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2007 23:04:45.0338 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC3737A0:01C76A7A] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 'Nuff said .... :D Dean ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Terry Blanton" Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:00:21 -0500 On 3/19/07, Dean McGowan wrote: >Am I incorrect in assuming that a particle travelling at the speed of light >has infinite mass ? There you go . . . trying to destroy everything that Richard Feynman did to earn his Nobel. Next, you'll be asking about the electron mass and it's dynamic spin momentum. Dicky normalized this ages ago. He simply waved his hands and the infinities went away. Please, don't remind us of how stupid we really are. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 17:15:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K0F3WQ026119; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:15:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K0F1Rg026087; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:15:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:15:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45FF2824.2010706@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:17:40 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FEA2B3.40503@ix.netcom.com> <12e701c76a3e$eea3fe70$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <12e701c76a3e$eea3fe70$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > So, this complex process you just described, whereby Li plates on and reacts with the Pd to form soluble alloys, these dissolve and the Pd is replated back on the cathode surface --- which indeed involves decomposition and electric current flowing through a solution, just like electrolysis! --- is in fact what your paper talks about principally, and that's why it says "electrolysis of palladium", right? Oh dear, how unfortunate, you forgot to mention this process in the paper! > > I hope Profs. Fleischman and Pons did mention it in their paper, since you write in page 1 that in 1989 they too "electrolyzed a platinum anode, a palladium cathode, using a LiOD + D2O electrolyte". Note they seem to have beaten you, they even managed to electrolyze platinum, will you please explain the detailed process too? > > Apart from that, any electrolysis of heavy water going on, accessorily? ;-) > > Thanks for the good laugh Ed :)))) You many find this funny. I, on the other hand, find your approach very sad. Your primary interest has been to show that my use of a word is wrong. Apparently, the results described in the paper in which this word is used have no value at all to you. You initially asked some good questions that I accepted as honest interest. When I supplied the information you requested, the only issue was my use of a word. Am I mistaken or has Vortex ceased to be where science is discussed? Ed > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:48 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) > > > >> >>Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >>>>No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also >>>>considered electrolysis. >>> >>> >>>If by this you mean that electroplating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating is not electrical decomposition you are quite mistaken Ed, it is. What decomposes in electroplating is --as in any electrolysis-- the electrolyte, a metal salt solution whose metal component plates out on the cathode, by the dissolved positive metal ion acquiring one or more electrons from the power supply's negative pole to become solid metal. >>> >>>In one technique (but not all) electroplating also involves dissolution of the _anode_ as a way to replenish the ions in the bath. However in P&F experiments such as yours palladium is the _cathode_ so this phenomenon doesn't occur, therefore it cannot be invoked to say that palladium is being "electrolyzed". >>> >>>Controversy solved? >> >> >>I now see the problem, you have not read or believe what I write. First >>of all, I did not say that electroplating was not decomposition. I said >>that electroplating is a another form of electrolysis. As to the issue >>regarding palladium, palladium does in fact dissolve as the cathode. The >>process begins by Li plating on and reacting with the Pd to form soluble >>alloys. These dissolve and the Pd is replated back on the cathode >>surface. The process is complex, but involves decomposition and electric >>current flowing through a solution. Rather than insisting on your >>interpretation being the only correct one, I suggest you expand your >>viewpoint. I might point out I have been studying electrochemistry for >>the past 18 years and do understand the subject. >> >>Ed >> >>>Michel >>> >>>Lobbying for a proper use of the terms of electrochemistry --terms on which, which may explain my sensitivity to their misuse, I have become by chance a specialist cf my contributions to the anode and cathode articles on wikipedia-- and more generally for "calling a cat a cat" (sorry for being such a smug aristocratic French smart ass Terry) >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>To: >>>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 7:10 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:52 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>The issue of importance on Michel's mind is whether the word >>>>>>electrolysis is being used correctly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I must be inhabited by Faraday's ghost ;-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>He and I agree that the word >>>>>>describes initiation of a chemical reaction by passage of current. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Yes but not any reaction, check the definition, a reaction of decomposition. >>>>>Decomposition of course is separation of a composed body into the elements it is composed of, e.g. D2O -> D2 + 0.5 O2 >>>> >>>>No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also >>>>considered electrolysis. >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Thus, >>>>>>H2O can be electrolyzed. In fact, palladium can also be electrolyzed >>>>>>because it is chemically changed by passing current trough it in an >>>>>>electrolytic cell, something Faraday did not know. The palladium reacts >>>>>>to form PdD and it dissolves in the solution. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Therefore it is not decomposed. Palladium cannot be decomposed BTW, as you know it is an element, not a composed body. >>>> >>>>Palladium is converted from a metal to an ion. D2O is converted from an >>>>ion to neutral elements. The issue is only the direction of the reaction. >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Both reactions are >>>>>>consistent with chemical reactions being initiated by flowing current. >>>>>>Therefore, it is correct to say that palladium is being electrolyzed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>It would only be correct if it was decomposed into constituting elements, which even if it was (it isn't because it can't as I said) would be of course a minor effect compared to the main decomposition that takes place, that of D2O, which would make your description about as accurate as "Dissolution of a mug" to describe an experiment where you dissolve sugar in your coffee. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>The problem with Michel's approach is that he is unwilling to see beyond >>>>>>the conventional and limited understanding of electrolysis while >>>>>>maintaining that only he is correct in how the word is used. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Not just me, me and all dictionaries and textbooks which say that electrolysis is electrochemical decomposition. >>>> >>>>I suggest the dictionaries are not up to date or at least not complete. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Does this put an end to the controversy? >>>> >>>>I hope so. >>>> >>>>Ed >>>> >>>> >>>>>Michel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Ed >>>>>> >>>>>>Terry Blanton wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying yesterday BTW, >>>>>>>>the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so bloody >>>>>>>anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is French >>>>>>>and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect english and >>>>>>>will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her second >>>>>>>language. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the process, >>>>>>>she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug and >>>>>>>aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our ignorant >>>>>>>bliss. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Terry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 18:27:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K1RdSE032415; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:27:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K1RbBL032397; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:27:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:27:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c76a8e$eead8d00$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FEA2B3.40503@ix.netcom.com> <12e701c76a3e$eea3fe70$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FF2824.2010706@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:27:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 1946, 1st year engineering school. Those of us that had served in WW2 were a litttle more mature than the fresh outa high school bunch. A buddy that I had served with in the Navy was sitting across from a kid with a slide rule at the lunch table. The kid couldn't shut up about the slide rule.. Granted the kid was a wizard and let us know it... but.. it finaly grated on my buddy so bad that he grabbed the slide rule outa the kid's hand and bent it double.. handed it back and said.. we know how smart you are.. will you just shut up... Funny, the kid's name was Michel < grin> Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 19:07:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K26pRn024376; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:06:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K26oOc024348; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:06:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:06:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: PQP2 was: Di-Ozone Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:06:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <22guv255tdnsd3ks8vdp4tr3gckd4n513e@4ax.com> References: <954550.37277.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <954550.37277.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta06ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 20 Mar 2007 02:06:46 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:37:50 -0700 = (PDT): Hi Jones, [snip] >Robin=20 > >>Prediction: "intrinsic angular momentum" is itself related to charge=20 >>somehow, and also to the LST quasi-particle, and all will be resolved=20 >>once these three issues are integrated [the three are "intrinsic = angular=20 >>momentum", charge, and the quasi-particle and the resolution will=20 >>explain an apparently chargeless component of the solar wind which has=20 >>mass near 1GeV, and "looks" more like a stable neutron than anything=20 >>else. That particle is the solar-derived non-Millsian hydrino-hydride. > >RvS: Hydrino-hydride carries a negative charge. > > >Hello. Did you get caught in the Oz vortex? or was the wording not = sufficiently lucid (the likely problem) > >This particle - the solar-derived non-Millsian hydrino-hydride is = neutral. I have no objection to you inventing new particles, but please don't = reuse names that others have already given to something else, it leads to confusion. = ;) > >The particle in question (revised particle from Mills' erroneous = assumption) is the PQP2 (proton-quasi-particle sub2) which is a = solar-derived non-Millsian hydrino-hydride in this hypothesis.=20 > >It is hypothetical, like the (erroneous) Hydrino hydride, and consists = of a proton strongly bound to two quasi-particle-electrons, of the L.S.T.= variety, and has zero overall charge, since the fractional negative = (expressed) charges of the two QPs are balanced by the proton's positive.= That is what makes it a non-Millsian hydrino-hydride. It is neutral. > >What I am saying (hypothesizing), in effect, is that Mills got it wrong = - at least insofar as the solar (natural) variety of this species is = concerned. Perhaps he knows of an earthly manifestation which is charged = negatively, but there is no evidence of that in any published experiment = AFIK.=20 More than evidence on paper, Mills has bottles of the stuff (literally). See http://www.blacklightpower.com/images/Chemicals.jpg Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 19:20:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K2JpxV030942; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:19:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K2Jl3j030901; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:19:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:19:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cheap Lauch or Free Lunch was: Di-Ozone Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:19:42 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9pguv2pcj7fr0079lhrlklpo26gmb2om9q@4ax.com> References: <45F989F7.1020307@pacbell.net> <002701c767cb$7fd75930$c905a8c0@xptower> <45FAAC70.2070103@pacbell.net> <45FABDD9.1020402@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45FABDD9.1020402@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 20 Mar 2007 02:19:42 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:55:05 -0700: Hi, [snip] >The key add-on would be an inline reactor subsystem, which would use=20 >high pressure O2 which has already been used to cool the rocket motor=20 >and then after polymerization - vent the diozone back into the motor.=20 >This reactor would, of necessity, contain an intense UV source in the=20 >critical spectrum of 254 nm. It would likely need to be a coherent=20 >source of UV light. [snip] Most of the fuel mass carried aloft is O2, so any improvement in the = energy derived from it would be valuable. However doing so implies adding energy= to the O2 molecules. If this is done on the ground, then you are taking extra = energy along with you. If you have to do this while in flight, then the extra = energy has to come from somewhere else. Where? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 19:42:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K2fuR6023387; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:41:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K2ftIb023374; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:41:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:41:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PxkU75/fw9zBUxok90yaytFiaBefGxKGQ1iRo5N9tk9InymnVAhpmwRqwqPgBhiqgpzFKqYjicRlbQyMB48zfIqFrvrLP6SNsk7hXFVgnb2LVPUEX/nwK926cg/Uzg4lBJ5vMNu0bwnzJqD7/M8Nys51y+GYwYgxNOcjCQX4u7E= ; X-YMail-OSG: MYJo2c8VM1nTrwttwsz_QtNFjRaBujNxEPPyyTVl7I_XzDWVO3F4doBqFiNBe_2MhpI5lgeamv6DYfv9MaN2YaIPt_mUNIBHx8UE4VCXEcI472j_P_wVZ0LwDAismcQgcxiMictKSckfUDU- Message-ID: <45FF49E9.2030403@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:41:45 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <954550.37277.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <22guv255tdnsd3ks8vdp4tr3gckd4n513e@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <22guv255tdnsd3ks8vdp4tr3gckd4n513e@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: PQP2 was: Di-Ozone Status: O X-Status: Robin > More than evidence on paper, Mills has bottles of the stuff (literally). > See http://www.blacklightpower.com/images/Chemicals.jpg ... old news, and largely meaningless for this discussion. What is in those vials, no one but Mills has a clue; and he is likely just guessing or he would publish more detail. So far, everything which Mills is even remotely sure of, gets published. Over and over, actually. He sent that material out many years ago for analysis (7-8 yrs.?) and the fact that no independent lab wants to stick their neck out on significant details (other than to say it is odd) should tell you something. Agreed - there are very likely to be hydrino compounds in there, compounded with alkali metals, which is the limit of what Mills is claiming anyway. I can pretty much guarantee one thing. There is near ZERO residual negative charge on any vial, as there would have to be if there were really such an entity as Hy- in existence: that being the stable, uncompounded but charged hydride, which had been captured as a pure species. There could be some slight static charge, as is seen with an electret, but even picograms of a charged stable hydride could not be contained. Needless to say, even for those who accept his experimental evidence, there is a totally different focus when one is looking of a natural solar-derived hydrogen species, which CANNOT be negatively charged, really -- compared to the situation of an alkali hydride in which the hydrogen is substituted. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 19:57:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K2vRWh030940; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:57:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K2vOrO030908; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:57:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:57:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=fvJ5Egtfmz0awwPF6OtpFoQMqXIwWhmucgww0ckXvt94TTd4cXAARtBtx2w/eHiLLJfrh5oms4H4mXLIQOnxkn+aBEJCv6lig7QPhCBu20U5ovrIU7Ki7gAejFXI8MdYYaEbZi0gL7erNs4oxr4YFoLu9Qo78sZ71BAsFX+AqXc=; X-YMail-OSG: zqKAEyYVM1mb_BVAYc9Uq64QXR11SaBRmcGKg9byiZDHDyZxqJgN0b.6u_6Qnol8SIQ.s9VxQoRXOKK2uverTVPFjq1gNvR4Wd_EIwrCK5OGJlzcGGa_l1d_n1uT_PS0UcJl9BVkDjPQ9EM- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/368.8 YahooMailWebService/0.6.132.8 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cheap Lauch or Free Lunch was: Di-Ozone To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <238513.85062.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <7DhZRC.A.ziH.U20_FB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin =0A=0AAt least we are not arguing over what is the meaning of "is"= ...=0A=0A> Most of the fuel mass carried aloft is O2, so any improvement i= n the energy=0Aderived from it would be valuable. However doing so implies = adding energy to the=0AO2 molecules. If this is done on the ground, then yo= u are taking extra energy=0Aalong with you. If you have to do this while in= flight, then the extra energy=0Ahas to come from somewhere else. Where?=0A= =0AThe O2 is first used to cool the rocket motor before entering the reacto= r. This helps keep the motor from melting from the intense heat. =0A=0AIn = so doing lots of heat and pressure are added. The change in structure to di= -ozone (if there is such a thing) at that point, and before combustion, may= be endothermic, and the required UV radiation would be more catalytic than= parasitic. Still you would need lots of electricity. Who knows - an induct= ion coil placed around the motor to extract some of the moving plasma charg= e ?? Hey if NASA wants to give me a consulting contract, I'll work on it ..= ..=0A=0A=0A From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 20:56:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K3upuZ014674; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:56:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K3uobQ014657; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:56:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:56:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [220.238.27.71] X-Originating-Email: [dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Dean McGowan" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:42:40 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2007 02:43:01.0250 (UTC) FILETIME=[79FCCE20:01C76A99] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thats just crazy momentum is an attribute of a particle with mass and electrons have no .... wait a minute .. your just playing around with me right ? Dean ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Terry Blanton" Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:00:21 -0500 On 3/19/07, Dean McGowan wrote: >Am I incorrect in assuming that a particle travelling at the speed of light >has infinite mass ? There you go . . . trying to destroy everything that Richard Feynman did to earn his Nobel. Next, you'll be asking about the electron mass and it's dynamic spin momentum. Dicky normalized this ages ago. He simply waved his hands and the infinities went away. Please, don't remind us of how stupid we really are. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 22:48:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K5m1us028495; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:48:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K5lx0o028473; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:47:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:47:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:47:58 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: Michel Jullian Subject: [Vo]: MODERATOR: Michel Jullian, cease your attack on Ed Storms In-Reply-To: <12e701c76a3e$eea3fe70$3800a8c0@zothan> Message-ID: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FEA2B3.40503@ix.netcom.com> <12e701c76a3e$eea3fe70$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've received complaints about your behavior. In reading the recent threads, it's clear that several Vortex members have objected to your behavior, yet you ignored them. Are you new to Vortex-L? On this forum, dismissing complaints from other users is a major mistake. And perhaps you haven't read the rules. Ad hominem attacks are banned here. Vortex-L is a continuing experiment in online community. It has few rules, lightly enforced. Normally members respond to each other's minor lapses, and the community is self-correcting. But if problems rise to the level where an offending member starts ignoring others' multiple complaints, I will step in. Enforcement usually involves weeks-long or permanent removal of the offending member to vortexB-L, where there are no rules at all. I see that ad hominem is not the only problem here. Let me make my opinion clear. Over the last decade I've entered into discussion with large number people on Newsgroups and even on Vortex who see nothing wrong with ad hominem. The common name for such people is "Trolls" or "Flamers." I've learned by repeated experience that one typical "troll ploy" involves dishonestly distorting a common word, then endlessly arguing about it. (Narrow exclusive dictionary definitions of words having multiple definitions in practice certainly qualify as dishonest distortion.) Your behavior in this thread very much resembles a classic "Troll Ploy." I'm well aware that Electrolysis has a definition broader than the non-tech dictionary definition "to electrically lyse." Ed Storms and others know the same. Most probably the researchers reading his paper's title are aware of the wider definition. Yet you honestly believe that Electrolysis has just a single narrow definition? I suspect otherwise. To me it appears that you're not trying to "help" Ed Storms at all, but using "help" as a dishonest masquerade while you strive to embarass him in public. But Ed Storms has no need to be embarassed, since his usage is not an error. A second problem. I note that initially you mentioned that Ed Storms' had made a serious error ...but then you refused to tell him what the error was. This is a tactic of dishonest debate I've seen more than once, a form of Troll grandstanding, though one less common than the longrunning arguments based on intentional word-distortion. This tactic has a clear purpose: to focus public attention on the one who employs it. It's appropriate to a political forum where dishonest manipulative tactics are the norm. It has no place in a scientific debate. That you used it sets off my alarm bells. A third problem. An honorable person with a legit correction would consciously attempt to AVOID embarrassment by communicating in a very brief message, or better yet, via private email. Doing it very noisily in public, over several days, in a thread BTW where you also used a number of small put-downs, adds up to a very serious ad-hominem attack. Those who objected to your behavior were in the right. Ed Storms deserves a major apology from you. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb@eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 23:08:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K67tK9012083; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:07:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K67qli012053; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:07:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:07:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 02:06:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, but I would put it this way: an infinite force is required to accelerate a non-light particle to the speed light. Harry Dean McGowan wrote: > Am I incorrect in assuming that a particle travelling at the speed of light > has infinite mass ? > > > Dean > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Michel Jullian" > Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > To: > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:09:43 +0100 > > Sure it is quantized, but this doesn't make it "apparent". > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone > > >> >> If light was literally a projectile, then it should be literally subject >> to the laws of mechanics and momentum changes should vary continuously. >> However, we know empirically that light of a particular wavelength >> can only bring about discrete changes of momentum. >> >> >> Harry >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> Well, it does bounce back from the object (e.g. solar sail) it imparted >>> momentum to, with total momentum being conserved and all. >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Harry Veeder" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:09 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone >>> >>> >>>> In my natural philosophy, light has an _apparent_ momentum, because the >>>> nature of light is such that it refuses to be subjected to a mechanical >>>> force. (I do mean "refuses" and not simply "resists"). >>>> >>>> Harry >>>> >>>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> >>>>> For a projectile what matters is momentum, and light does have > momentum, >>>>> that's what pushes solar sails. >>>>> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure >>>>> >>>>> Michel >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "R.C.Macaulay" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 PM >>>>> Subject: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Howdy Jones, >>>>>> >>>>>> You amaze me with your ability to stretch the elastic of the mind. > One >>>>>> must eat a heartly breakfast and tighten the safety belt before > launching >>>>>> into one of your posts that can range from rail guns to > Ormus... and >>>>>> that is a stretch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now that light has been accepted as having "particle" or "weight", it > can >>>>>> be >>>>>> taken to the next step and think of light having "projectile force" >>>>>> qualities. A rail gun projectile would not necessarily require a > socalled >>>>>> "mass" ( I have always been abhorred by the term mass). A better >>>>>> constructed >>>>>> railgun would fire a " projectile of light"... hmmm.. a strange > beasty >>>>>> indeed.. Why so ? >>>>>> Because the projectile could be " tuned" to either/or focus or > impact. >>>>>> Strange account of a battle predicted centuries ago where the > flesh,eyes >>>>>> and >>>>>> tongue will rot while they are still standing ( bones remain) Zec: > 14. >>>>>> This >>>>>> description seeems to indicate a type of a ray gun, however, the > projectile >>>>>> does not knock the person off their feet.. only dissolves the flesh. >>>>>> >>>>>> You referred to Barry Carter's Subtleenergy website that mentions a > new >>>>>> method of producing O3 and O6 but does not describe the process. He > does >>>>>> describe the healing qualities of vortex induced ormus water. Reminds > me of >>>>>> the account of the angel that would "stir" or "trouble" the waters in > the >>>>>> pool. Whoever would be the first sick person to enter the pool > thereafter >>>>>> would be healed. If the "stirring" means inducing a water vortex and > only >>>>>> the first person would be healed, could this mean the vortex was > destroyed >>>>>> by entering the pool and the residual remains of the vortex > properties >>>>>> dissappear? >>>>>> >>>>>> Out in the wildwood behind the Dime Box Saloon lurks an old whisky > still >>>>>> left over from the old days. The tale goes that sippin some that " > thinkin >>>>>> drinkin" stuff could make a person believe the earth was flat. >>>>>> >>>>>> Richard >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 23:25:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K6P7Dn025526; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:25:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K6P5m3025502; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:25:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:25:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <138801c76ab8$7fb280c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FEA2B3.40503@ix.netcom.com> <12e701c76a3e$eea3fe70$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FF2824.2010706@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:24:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No Ed, I didn't find it interesting to show that the words electrolysis = and electrolyzed were misused, the painful exchange on this very = unininteresting point should have lasted no more than a handful of = lines. As you know it was you who made this discussion last for ages, = deliberately making me look like a nasty guy torturing poor Ed with = great pleasure. I am glad this minor controversy is over, let's go back to science I = agree heartily, I just hope it won't take this long to solve any = controversies that may arise on science itself. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy = water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) >=20 >=20 > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >> So, this complex process you just described, whereby Li plates on and = reacts with the Pd to form soluble alloys, these dissolve and the Pd is = replated back on the cathode surface --- which indeed involves = decomposition and electric current flowing through a solution, just like = electrolysis! --- is in fact what your paper talks about principally, = and that's why it says "electrolysis of palladium", right? Oh dear, how = unfortunate, you forgot to mention this process in the paper! >>=20 >> I hope Profs. Fleischman and Pons did mention it in their paper, = since you write in page 1 that in 1989 they too "electrolyzed a platinum = anode, a palladium cathode, using a LiOD + D2O electrolyte". Note they = seem to have beaten you, they even managed to electrolyze platinum, will = you please explain the detailed process too? >>=20 >> Apart from that, any electrolysis of heavy water going on, = accessorily? ;-) >>=20 >> Thanks for the good laugh Ed :)))) >=20 > You many find this funny. I, on the other hand, find your approach = very=20 > sad. Your primary interest has been to show that my use of a word is=20 > wrong. Apparently, the results described in the paper in which this = word=20 > is used have no value at all to you. You initially asked some good=20 > questions that I accepted as honest interest. When I supplied the=20 > information you requested, the only issue was my use of a word. Am I=20 > mistaken or has Vortex ceased to be where science is discussed? >=20 > Ed >>=20 >> Michel >>=20 >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "Edmund Storms" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Which is electrolyzed in P&F, palladium or heavy = water? (was Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> >>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also = >>>>>considered electrolysis. >>>> >>>> >>>>If by this you mean that electroplating = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating is not electrical = decomposition you are quite mistaken Ed, it is. What decomposes in = electroplating is --as in any electrolysis-- the electrolyte, a metal = salt solution whose metal component plates out on the cathode, by the = dissolved positive metal ion acquiring one or more electrons from the = power supply's negative pole to become solid metal. >>>> >>>>In one technique (but not all) electroplating also involves = dissolution of the _anode_ as a way to replenish the ions in the bath. = However in P&F experiments such as yours palladium is the _cathode_ so = this phenomenon doesn't occur, therefore it cannot be invoked to say = that palladium is being "electrolyzed". >>>> >>>>Controversy solved? >>> >>> >>>I now see the problem, you have not read or believe what I write. = First=20 >>>of all, I did not say that electroplating was not decomposition. I = said=20 >>>that electroplating is a another form of electrolysis. As to the = issue=20 >>>regarding palladium, palladium does in fact dissolve as the cathode. = The=20 >>>process begins by Li plating on and reacting with the Pd to form = soluble=20 >>>alloys. These dissolve and the Pd is replated back on the cathode=20 >>>surface. The process is complex, but involves decomposition and = electric=20 >>>current flowing through a solution. Rather than insisting on your=20 >>>interpretation being the only correct one, I suggest you expand your=20 >>>viewpoint. I might point out I have been studying electrochemistry = for=20 >>>the past 18 years and do understand the subject. >>> >>>Ed >>> >>>>Michel =20 >>>> >>>>Lobbying for a proper use of the terms of electrochemistry --terms = on which, which may explain my sensitivity to their misuse, I have = become by chance a specialist cf my contributions to the anode and = cathode articles on wikipedia-- and more generally for "calling a cat a = cat" (sorry for being such a smug aristocratic French smart ass Terry) >>>> >>>> >>>>----- Original Message -----=20 >>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 7:10 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>----- Original Message -----=20 >>>>>>From: "Edmund Storms" >>>>>>To: >>>>>>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:52 PM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Your ad hominem attack >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>The issue of importance on Michel's mind is whether the word=20 >>>>>>>electrolysis is being used correctly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I must be inhabited by Faraday's ghost ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>He and I agree that the word=20 >>>>>>>describes initiation of a chemical reaction by passage of = current. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes but not any reaction, check the definition, a reaction of = decomposition. >>>>>>Decomposition of course is separation of a composed body into the = elements it is composed of, e.g. D2O -> D2 + 0.5 O2 >>>>> >>>>>No decomposition is not the only definition. Electroplating is also = >>>>>considered electrolysis. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Thus,=20 >>>>>>>H2O can be electrolyzed. In fact, palladium can also be = electrolyzed=20 >>>>>>>because it is chemically changed by passing current trough it in = an=20 >>>>>>>electrolytic cell, something Faraday did not know. The palladium = reacts=20 >>>>>>>to form PdD and it dissolves in the solution. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Therefore it is not decomposed. Palladium cannot be decomposed = BTW, as you know it is an element, not a composed body. >>>>> >>>>>Palladium is converted from a metal to an ion. D2O is converted = from an=20 >>>>>ion to neutral elements. The issue is only the direction of the = reaction. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Both reactions are=20 >>>>>>>consistent with chemical reactions being initiated by flowing = current.=20 >>>>>>>Therefore, it is correct to say that palladium is being = electrolyzed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>It would only be correct if it was decomposed into constituting = elements, which even if it was (it isn't because it can't as I said) = would be of course a minor effect compared to the main decomposition = that takes place, that of D2O, which would make your description about = as accurate as "Dissolution of a mug" to describe an experiment where = you dissolve sugar in your coffee. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>The problem with Michel's approach is that he is unwilling to see = beyond=20 >>>>>>>the conventional and limited understanding of electrolysis while=20 >>>>>>>maintaining that only he is correct in how the word is used. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Not just me, me and all dictionaries and textbooks which say that = electrolysis is electrochemical decomposition. >>>>> >>>>>I suggest the dictionaries are not up to date or at least not = complete. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Does this put an end to the controversy? >>>>> >>>>>I hope so. >>>>> >>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Michel >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Terry Blanton wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On 3/18/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>In the same book he also illustrated what I was saying = yesterday BTW,=20 >>>>>>>>>the fact that a good scientist always doubts :)) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Yes, but this whole issue has arisen because you French are so = bloody >>>>>>>>anal about language. I have a contract administrator who is = French >>>>>>>>and she is excellent in what she does. She speaks perfect = english and >>>>>>>>will enter into heated arguments about some fine aspect of her = second >>>>>>>>language. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Indeed, she is usually correct in her argument; but, in the = process, >>>>>>>>she alienates herself from her coworkers. She comes off as smug = and >>>>>>>>aristrocratic. Sometimes it's better to let us wallow in our = ignorant >>>>>>>>bliss. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Terry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>=20 >>=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 23:42:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K6flZ1002228; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:41:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K6fk0a002216; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:41:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:41:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 02:40:28 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Di-Ozone In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oops! I meant No, instead of Yes, hmmm...but then again... Harry Harry Veeder wrote: > Yes, but I would put it this way: an infinite force is required to > accelerate a non-light particle to the speed light. > > Harry > > Dean McGowan wrote: > >> Am I incorrect in assuming that a particle travelling at the speed of light >> has infinite mass ? >> >> >> Dean From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 01:54:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2K8s9uU019169; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:54:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2K8rvKT019125; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:53:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:53:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <13cd01c76acd$46087db0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <100101c768b0$45197ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> <10f301c7693a$092fdda0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD5213.2030006@ix.netcom.com> <115b01c7697a$2f708ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FD809D.4040206@ix.netcom.com> <122f01c76a09$a209ce30$3800a8c0@zothan> <45FEA2B3.40503@ix.netcom.com> <12e701c76a3e$eea3fe70$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:53:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: MODERATOR: Michel Jullian, cease your attack on Ed Storms Status: RO X-Status: > Ed Storms deserves a major apology from you. Certainly. I, Michel Jullian...arraigned personally before this tribunal, and = kneeling before you, Most Eminent and Reverend Lord Cardinals, ... swear = that I have always believed, do believe, and by God's help will in the = future believe, all that is held, preached, and taught by the Holy = Catholic and Apostolic Church. But whereas -- after an injunction had = been judicially intimated to me by this Holy Office, to the effect that = I must altogether abandon the false opinion that to electrolyze means = "to electrically lyse", and that I must not hold, defend, or teach in = any way whatsoever, verbally or in writing, the said false doctrine, and = after it had been notified to me that the said doctrine was contrary to = Holy Scripture -- I wrote and printed a book in which I discuss this new = doctrine already condemned, and adduce arguments of great cogency in its = favor, without presenting any solution of these, and for this reason I = have been pronounced by the Holy Office to be vehemently suspected of = heresy, that is to say, of having held and believed that to electrolyze = means "to electrically lyse". Michel, who has nothing against Ed Storms BTW, sorry (seriously this = time) if it looked this way. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "William Beaty" To: Cc: "Michel Jullian" Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: [Vo]: MODERATOR: Michel Jullian, cease your attack on Ed Storms >=20 > I've received complaints about your behavior. >=20 > In reading the recent threads, it's clear that several Vortex members = have > objected to your behavior, yet you ignored them. Are you new to = Vortex-L? > On this forum, dismissing complaints from other users is a major = mistake. >=20 > And perhaps you haven't read the rules. Ad hominem attacks are banned > here. >=20 > Vortex-L is a continuing experiment in online community. It has few > rules, lightly enforced. Normally members respond to each other's = minor > lapses, and the community is self-correcting. But if problems rise to = the > level where an offending member starts ignoring others' multiple > complaints, I will step in. Enforcement usually involves weeks-long > or permanent removal of the offending member to vortexB-L, where there = are > no rules at all. >=20 > I see that ad hominem is not the only problem here. >=20 > Let me make my opinion clear. Over the last decade I've entered into > discussion with large number people on Newsgroups and even on Vortex = who > see nothing wrong with ad hominem. The common name for such people is > "Trolls" or "Flamers." I've learned by repeated experience that one > typical "troll ploy" involves dishonestly distorting a common word, = then > endlessly arguing about it. (Narrow exclusive dictionary definitions = of > words having multiple definitions in practice certainly qualify as > dishonest distortion.) >=20 > Your behavior in this thread very much resembles a classic "Troll = Ploy." >=20 > I'm well aware that Electrolysis has a definition broader than the > non-tech dictionary definition "to electrically lyse." Ed Storms and > others know the same. Most probably the researchers reading his = paper's > title are aware of the wider definition. Yet you honestly believe = that > Electrolysis has just a single narrow definition? I suspect = otherwise. > To me it appears that you're not trying to "help" Ed Storms at all, = but > using "help" as a dishonest masquerade while you strive to embarass = him in > public. But Ed Storms has no need to be embarassed, since his usage = is > not an error. >=20 > A second problem. I note that initially you mentioned that Ed Storms' = had > made a serious error ...but then you refused to tell him what the = error > was. This is a tactic of dishonest debate I've seen more than once, a > form of Troll grandstanding, though one less common than the = longrunning > arguments based on intentional word-distortion. This tactic has a = clear > purpose: to focus public attention on the one who employs it. It's > appropriate to a political forum where dishonest manipulative tactics = are > the norm. It has no place in a scientific debate. That you used it > sets off my alarm bells. >=20 > A third problem. An honorable person with a legit correction would > consciously attempt to AVOID embarrassment by communicating in a very > brief message, or better yet, via private email. Doing it very = noisily in > public, over several days, in a thread BTW where you also used a = number of > small put-downs, adds up to a very serious ad-hominem attack. >=20 > Those who objected to your behavior were in the right. >=20 > Ed Storms deserves a major apology from you. >=20 >=20 >=20 > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ > beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer > billb@eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 > 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 04:32:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KBWUAU021294; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:32:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KBWSWu021280; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:32:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:32:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:32:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Archive erasement request Status: RO X-Status: Bill, could you please erase the exchanges relative to the terminology = dispute from the publicly accessible archive? Michel P.S. Before anybody asks, my public apology was plagiarized, and I won't = attribute it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 05:38:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KCcYWJ018453; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:38:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KCcXdC018436; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:38:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:38:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ICiLS6Kmwvrca8x1IH82uhLfzvRMtjHvafnE+4s5ZznUNdWs6aR2CxFpje/jK9ZUV4J7sV4Y3Lg6GSXTtT70JWRErnTgNkZsi1XIs2Us/y5hoDIHABuFHuz1kRYscpL2uKoC2Jy3LYySmIQVx1jRalzYpMVEhbMQrEGMFu+Kbx0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Dy8GEcOQln4jcDgP2fJzv4Zz2XqfOEQ+qWbmDphFN6vdgd9O++6ob78Eq7wjQ6lUC8pWhYDHGqbV5c0ob0PLKp66v4AghOM5ft0Fo39RjmnT6hwqE3nnXlKaNmNwkNaStBRG5761zL/eyd8iE3zxUAZpNTi4HoApwfHuqGre0ug= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:38:29 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request In-Reply-To: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: MJ: Contrary to your opinion of us, most are aware of Galileo's recantation and the attitude with which it was given. You should be happy it's not my forum for I would have permanently banned you for your "apology". Mr. Beaty, I vehemently object to the erasure of any messages from Vortex archives. Terry On 3/20/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > Bill, could you please erase the exchanges relative to the terminology dispute from the publicly accessible archive? > > Michel > > P.S. Before anybody asks, my public apology was plagiarized, and I won't attribute it. > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 06:03:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KD2u2x015427; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:02:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KD2srr015347; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:02:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:02:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <149001c76af0$1138aa10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:02:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <7fVamB.A.qvD.-t9_FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: TB: Wouldn't this be a bit excessive? May I object that, following the same = apology, the original author was not excommunicated? My request for erasure was to prevent the public embarrassment of a = member I have been accused of, not for my own comfort as you seem to = imagine. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request > MJ: >=20 > Contrary to your opinion of us, most are aware of Galileo's > recantation and the attitude with which it was given. You should be > happy it's not my forum for I would have permanently banned you for > your "apology". >=20 > Mr. Beaty, I vehemently object to the erasure of any messages from > Vortex archives. >=20 > Terry >=20 > On 3/20/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> Bill, could you please erase the exchanges relative to the = terminology dispute from the publicly accessible archive? >> >> Michel >> >> P.S. Before anybody asks, my public apology was plagiarized, and I = won't attribute it. >> >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 06:25:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KDP1KY026076; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:25:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KDOwQ7026043; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:24:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:24:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Archive erasement request Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:24:24 -0600 Message-ID: <004e01c76af3$266503e0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-reply-to: <149001c76af0$1138aa10$3800a8c0@zothan> Thread-Index: Acdq8I8qugD5WDL4Qfy6dQMg4elvWAAAHXrA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Michel, > My request for erasure was to prevent the public embarrassment of a member I have been accused of, not for my own comfort as you seem to imagine. Does your smug behavior have no limit? How can you prevent something you have already done? Now that the moderator has given his clear and fair assessment, and reestablished his editorial policy for this list, the supporting evidence must remain. However, I agree with Terry that it seems fitting you should not. It is quite fair for some boards to choose to filter their content such that behavior like yours is absent. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 06:38:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KDcMsI000366; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:38:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KDcKfc000336; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:38:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:38:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <14a601c76af5$01e20570$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <004e01c76af3$266503e0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:38:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <9ogJ3D.A.MF.MP-_FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: So whatever I say is smug now. I see bashing of the Frenchman is in = order, anyone else cares to join? I meant more public than Vortex membership. I maintain my request, and insist that it is disinterested, as have been = all my contributions. I have nothing to sell here. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 2:24 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Archive erasement request > Hi Michel, >=20 >> My request for erasure was to prevent the public embarrassment of a = member > I have been accused of, not for my own comfort as you seem to imagine. >=20 > Does your smug behavior have no limit? How can you prevent something = you > have already done? Now that the moderator has given his clear and = fair > assessment, and reestablished his editorial policy for this list, the > supporting evidence must remain. However, I agree with Terry that it = seems > fitting you should not. It is quite fair for some boards to choose to > filter their content such that behavior like yours is absent. >=20 > Dave > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 06:52:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KDqgIK007169; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:52:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KDnCWT005515; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:49:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:49:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070320094635.03741960@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:47:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request In-Reply-To: References: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Mr. Beaty, I vehemently object to the erasure of any messages from >Vortex archives. Heck, why make a big deal about it? I would say erase 'em and forget it. Give the man a mulligan, as they say in golf. I did not know it was possible to erase the archive. I've said some stupid & embarrassing things here that I wish I could take back, although I wouldn't want Bill to go to the trouble to do it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 07:29:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KETZOI001284; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:29:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KETYfh001268; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:29:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:29:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <14c001c76afc$2e6e9390$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070320094635.03741960@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:29:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Give the man a mulligan, as they say in golf. Thanks Jed but give which man a mulligan? If you mean erase for my sake, = and everybody else here feels the same, I wouldn't want Bill to go to = the trouble to do it either, I am sure he has more important things to = do. The interested parties, I suggest you work this out by private messages, = I have given my position. Michel =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request > Terry Blanton wrote: >=20 >>Mr. Beaty, I vehemently object to the erasure of any messages from >>Vortex archives. >=20 > Heck, why make a big deal about it? I would say erase 'em and forget=20 > it. Give the man a mulligan, as they say in golf. >=20 > I did not know it was possible to erase the archive. I've said some=20 > stupid & embarrassing things here that I wish I could take back,=20 > although I wouldn't want Bill to go to the trouble to do it. >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 07:36:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KEaAlm009475; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:36:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KEa7jf009421; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:36:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:36:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:36:02 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_51fa0e962d4219aefd32bde2f5a76eba" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070320144042.33EA9BFAD5@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: <28WBXD.A.wSC.VF__FB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mr. Jullian is not the victim Status: RO X-Status: --=_51fa0e962d4219aefd32bde2f5a76eba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: Mr. Jullian is not the victim To Mr. Jullian, I had made my peace several posts ago. I was content to let it lie, until this latest tactical maneuver on your part. Based on your past posting behavior Mr. Beaty, the moderator for this group, as requested a sincere apology from you to be directed at Ed Storms. Instead, what is forthcoming is a parody of an apology in the guise of Galileo prostrating himself in front of the Catholic Church, which almost immediately in a subsequent post you state: > Bill, could you please erase the exchanges > relative to the terminology dispute from > the publicly accessible archive? > > Michel > > P.S. Before anybody asks, my public apology > was plagiarized, and I won't attribute it. What a clever maneuver on your part. And now, in subsequent posts of distraction you try to make everyone believe you are the real victim in all of this. ...and, of course, in the process no sincere apology to Ed Storms is forthcoming. Very clever indeed. But most of us are clever too. I do not envy Mr. Beaty's responsibilities. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_51fa0e962d4219aefd32bde2f5a76eba Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: Mr. Jullian is not the victim

To Mr. Jullian,

I had made my peace several posts ago. I was content to let it lie, until t= his latest tactical maneuver on your part.

Based on your past posting behavior Mr. Beaty, the moderator for this group= , as requested a sincere apology from you to be directed at Ed Storms.

Instead, what is forthcoming is a parody of an apology in the guise of Gali= leo prostrating himself in front of the Catholic Church, which almost immed= iately in a subsequent post you state:

> Bill, could you please erase the exchanges
> relative to the terminology dispute from
> the publicly accessible archive?
>
> Michel
>
> P.S. Before anybody asks, my public apology
> was plagiarized, and I won't attribute it.

What a clever maneuver on your part. And now, in subsequent posts of distra= ction you try to make everyone believe you are the real victim in all of th= is.

...and, of course, in the process no sincere apology to Ed Storms is forthc= oming.

Very clever indeed.

But most of us are clever too.

I do not envy Mr. Beaty's responsibilities.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_51fa0e962d4219aefd32bde2f5a76eba-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 07:48:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KElxwh019564; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:47:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KElvjH019544; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:47:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:47:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070320104619.0387d6a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:47:42 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request In-Reply-To: <14c001c76afc$2e6e9390$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070320094635.03741960@mindspring.com> <14c001c76afc$2e6e9390$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Thanks Jed but give which man a mulligan? Everyone. Another piece of good folk-wisdom for you to ponder is: When you are stuck in a hole, do not dig it deeper. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 08:41:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KFfUnV004407; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:41:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KFfOTm004364; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:41:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:41:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=CHvt+SLqGjrtkCPqXCgJlqL1FtpmD4AqtK23gBAZU+SVUXq6NYBZfl6VXT5HpS//zdlIpA8HzV/5xLj9wbmO06Kxlyiwo6X9fXJs++dnd0NyHn4JiQ5GJeHPpBXlPFZGiqnn8JJXXFqk5KEVwfGvN7Xm1SfdkPZE3rmmWEg/TXc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=kg6Jzzi3PdRIf4ogAlbHxkHN44vyQf7pz5L1r88bmXy5MI5Ojq7Uo38n02W3pt0GhhbQw6lb4YbIpy8LZVoECyBJIfq2r0QPj1xmaQjdr1kLGNJfaUZNq3+RA6mOjLPsIWSNaQlOsecXIjm6yKdTV2gFGc5w56MCEmkwt1ehRN4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:41:25 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73906 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Caves of Mars Status: O X-Status: Do they harbor life? http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/03/19/94112.aspx From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 09:08:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KG7w7O014914; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:07:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KG7vKr014896; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:07:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:07:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=B8k/5UOqo3CfwrtEXljivH6Eknq9aIJjrjurMjjJkXqEuw1+UNaN0ZjGvbyFyFxbmu94nuaqnK0KwQgUHxZDvGiZZvwbmtqTjuu4OtsMsqUerTlZ6QvAC8lPKZ363ESmspGPTOcjLdQQVl2diLTLZN+PMd29C9s+Zo9l6av/dYU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XvZtiKJnLiX9JxqEvNChPZ+MaH4EsLvU1k3N0wL19XJh+5AImli6I0B5nsD/mrHSXqk35ojMogdoD/MA4+C5q37qAm5hGzKkZm1omzSKNc9/6rMWt43gDi5YXCAEmTxtpqwavBRjB94++SalRE4S9VJubyiMurpQrJF7lj+u4wM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:07:53 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070320104619.0387d6a8@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070320094635.03741960@mindspring.com> <14c001c76afc$2e6e9390$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070320104619.0387d6a8@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73907 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Or, as my friend Brad would often say back in high school, Alex... PUT THE SHOVEL DOWN! and i object as well. the archive is not just for the purpose of research into already discussed topics, but a source of info on the evolution and use of the list. i rankle at the thought of ANY censorship, no matter the reasonl. On 3/20/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michel Jullian wrote: > > >Thanks Jed but give which man a mulligan? > > Everyone. > > Another piece of good folk-wisdom for you to ponder is: When you are > stuck in a hole, do not dig it deeper. > > - Jed > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 10:22:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KHLkRm012805; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:21:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KHLeOI012768; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:21:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:21:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320101156.02ff4af0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:17:53 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Archive erasement request In-Reply-To: References: <146401c76ae3$710c2410$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070320094635.03741960@mindspring.com> <14c001c76afc$2e6e9390$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070320104619.0387d6a8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73908 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Censorship is pointless in cyberspace. Anyone who puts words to keyboard better damn well know that it is permanent, more permanent than paper and ink, more permanent than bricks and mortar. Moral of the story: take responsibility for your actions and your posts. Steve Krivit From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 10:48:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2KHlrvE001481; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:47:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2KHlpdL001449; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:47:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:47:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=ek0eLv2+bjrAVCB5f4TC5M/ie337mN1eInBlU3mnLkPMiIFRdTc8TrEnAW2/6PFKCgSbQRUawNvfaXEfqT4n6QL0wXiVePATyKpAZEvoiZ5IxX7IvhCSGYagWKvYuClHNXExchUN5bwBam73P5UqatAVYxrvCPM1OjUu7Jq2nos= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=kierClCQmSpfF0BsZA/lACx1gu3lRomr0s3N9AlpyCSS9oOZsBXyZnJvyvKLZVi9SPwZ+ygIb47TQi7K8mJqLtaOHKLTEKuEN/oGavB7mRbVARzUxwCHGt6+2QqR+5orbRxWtyJkaXqQWfq1h+ZsvAilhDPlBLbQYDrfTi6GPL4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:47:46 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73909 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cold Wax Status: O X-Status: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,2036182,00.html =A325 fridge gadget that could slash greenhouse emissions David Adam, environment correspondent Saturday March 17, 2007 The Guardian It is made of wax, is barely three inches across and comes in any colour you like, as long as it's black. And it could save more greenhouse gas emissions than taxes on gas guzzling cars, low energy light bulbs and wind turbines on houses combined. It is the e-cube, and it is coming soon to a fridge near you. Invented by British engineers, the =A325 gadget significantly reduces the amount of energy used by fridges and freezers, which are estimated to consume about a fifth of all domestic electricity in the UK. If one was fitted to each of the 87 million refrigeration units in Britain, carbon dioxide emissions would fall by more than 2 million tonnes a year. The patented cube mimics food and is designed to fit around a fridge's temperature sensor, which usually measures the temperature of the circulating air. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 17:30:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L0UhAk010662; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:30:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L0UfeI010640; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:30:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:30:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:33:41 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_274663828==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73911 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Galileo Project: The Future Status: O X-Status: --=====================_274663828==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed For Immediate Release March 20, 2007 Contact: Steven Krivit: (310) 470-8189 The Galileo Project: The Future New Energy Institute applauds the participants of Phase 1 of the Galileo Project for their diligence and discipline in this most challenging field of scientific inquiry. The first report on the research from this group was reported in the March 16, 2007, issue of New Energy Times. The Galileo Project was initiated by New Energy Institute to facilitate replication of the co-deposition experiment developed by the San Diego SPAWAR Systems Center group, as reported in New Energy Times, Nov. 10, 2006. The project was the first coordinated widespread replication effort of a low energy nuclear reaction experiment in the 18-year history of the field historically known as cold fusion. The project was named for the pioneering spirit of all the condensed matter nuclear science researchers, who have had the courage to "look through the telescope" at unconventional science. New Energy Times expects to report on the results of other members who participated in Phase 1 of the Galileo Project in the coming months, as the research teams present their results at science conferences or in science journals. The laboratory protocol for Phase 1 of the Galileo Project is available for any adult who is willing to sign a liability release. Our contact information is here. The experiment is not recommended for people without electrochemistry experience. New Energy Institute has selected a new team for Phase 2 of the Galileo Project. Our objective will be to develop additional confirmatory evidence of nuclear particle tracks as well as to identify more explicitly the characteristics of the apparent nuclear emissions. New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) magazine, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters. --=====================_274663828==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" For Immediate Release
March 20, 2007
Contact: Steven Krivit: (310) 470-8189


The Galileo Project: The Future

New Energy Institute applauds the participants of Phase 1 of the Galileo Project for their diligence and discipline in this most challenging field of scientific inquiry. The first report on the research from this group was reported in the March 16, 2007, issue of New Energy Times.

The Galileo Project was initiated by New Energy Institute to facilitate replication of the co-deposition experiment developed by the San Diego SPAWAR Systems Center group, as reported in New Energy Times, Nov. 10, 2006. The project was the first coordinated widespread replication effort of a low energy nuclear reaction experiment in the 18-year history of the field historically known as cold fusion.

The project was named for the pioneering spirit of all the condensed matter nuclear science researchers, who have had the courage to "look through the telescope" at unconventional science.

New Energy Times expects to report on the results of other members who participated in Phase 1 of the Galileo Project in the coming months, as the research teams present their results at science conferences or in science journals.

The laboratory protocol for Phase 1 of the Galileo Project is available for any adult who is willing to sign a liability release. Our contact information is here. The experiment is not recommended for people without electrochemistry experience.

New Energy Institute has selected a new team for Phase 2 of the Galileo Project. Our objective will be to develop additional confirmatory evidence of nuclear particle tracks as well as to identify more explicitly the characteristics of the apparent nuclear emissions.

New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) magazine, Web site, and documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of our sponsors and supporters.

 
--=====================_274663828==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 18:33:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L1X4AX018677; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:33:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L1X2RU018663; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:33:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:33:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c76b58$d961d530$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:32:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76B2E.F046FC00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <3rJS6B.A.YjE.OtIAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73912 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Galileo Project: The Future Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76B2E.F046FC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Steven Krivit for the report.=20 The Galileo Project will defined at the beginning of an entirely new = focus on LENR and sponsored by the courageous and dedicated people that = have produced the foundation. Richard For Immediate Release=20 March 20, 2007 Contact: Steven Krivit: (310) 470-8189 The Galileo Project: The Future=20 New Energy Institute applauds the participants of Phase 1 of the = Galileo Project for their diligence and discipline in this most = challenging field of scientific inquiry. The first report on the = research from this group was reported in the March 16, 2007, issue of = New Energy Times.=20 The Galileo Project was initiated by New Energy Institute to = facilitate replication of the co-deposition experiment developed by the = San Diego SPAWAR Systems Center group, as reported in New Energy Times, = Nov. 10, 2006. The project was the first coordinated widespread = replication effort of a low energy nuclear reaction experiment in the = 18-year history of the field historically known as cold fusion.=20 The project was named for the pioneering spirit of all the condensed = matter nuclear science researchers, who have had the courage to "look = through the telescope" at unconventional science.=20 New Energy Times expects to report on the results of other members who = participated in Phase 1 of the Galileo Project in the coming months, as = the research teams present their results at science conferences or in = science journals.=20 The laboratory protocol for Phase 1 of the Galileo Project is = available for any adult who is willing to sign a liability release. Our = contact information is here. The experiment is not recommended for = people without electrochemistry experience.=20 New Energy Institute has selected a new team for Phase 2 of the = Galileo Project. Our objective will be to develop additional = confirmatory evidence of nuclear particle tracks as well as to identify = more explicitly the characteristics of the apparent nuclear emissions.=20 New Energy Times (tm) is a project of New Energy Institute, an = independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation which provides information = and educational services to help bring about the clean-energy = revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) magazine, Web site, and = documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions of = our sponsors and supporters. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76B2E.F046FC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Steven Krivit for the = report.=20
The  Galileo Project will = defined at=20 the beginning of an entirely new focus on LENR and sponsored=20 by the courageous and dedicated people that have  = produced the=20 foundation.
 
Richard
 

For Immediate Release
March 20, 2007
Contact: = Steven=20 Krivit: (310) 470-8189


The Galileo Project: The Future=20

New Energy Institute applauds the participants of Phase 1 = of the=20 Galileo Project for their diligence and discipline in this most = challenging=20 field of scientific inquiry. The first report on the research from = this group=20 was reported in the March = 16,=20 2007, issue of New Energy Times.

The Galileo Project was = initiated=20 by New Energy Institute to facilitate replication of the co-deposition = experiment developed by the San Diego SPAWAR Systems Center group, as = reported=20 in New Energy Times, Nov. 10, = 2006. The=20 project was the first coordinated widespread replication effort of a = low=20 energy nuclear reaction experiment in the 18-year history of the field = historically known as cold fusion.

The project was named for = the=20 pioneering spirit of all the condensed matter nuclear science = researchers, who=20 have had the courage to "look through the telescope" at unconventional = science.

New Energy Times expects to report on the results of = other=20 members who participated in Phase 1 of the Galileo Project in the = coming=20 months, as the research teams present their results at science = conferences or=20 in science journals.

The laboratory protocol for Phase 1 of = the=20 Galileo Project is available for any adult who is willing to sign a = liability=20 release. Our contact information is here. The = experiment=20 is not recommended for people without electrochemistry experience. =

New=20 Energy Institute has selected a new team for Phase 2 of the Galileo = Project.=20 Our objective will be to develop additional confirmatory evidence of = nuclear=20 particle tracks as well as to identify more explicitly the = characteristics of=20 the apparent nuclear emissions.

New Energy Times (tm) is a = project=20 of New Energy Institute, an independent 501(c)(3) nonprofit = corporation which=20 provides information and educational services to help bring about the=20 clean-energy revolution. The New Energy Times (tm) magazine, Web site, = and=20 documentary projects are made possible by the generous contributions = of our=20 sponsors and supporters.
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C76B2E.F046FC00-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 18:39:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L1dWGe021610; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:39:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L1dVHk021592; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:39:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:39:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=xqDGabGfSti3Mdsdj80De7/Mnw/LJFB1B+c5CZ6LaB3MWsyO3eANRT+DRZCc/+UGIE4NcyBvEQDhHlWY7cJOnU+ZGzRa28shpz8Yy3HyJiWLSzqbckvsgozOoNJnFTAGLc8lHID+QDaNbnZ0qevG5hMJusn5CHHewAceSZ6Kqvk= ; X-YMail-OSG: UI4dSaEVM1knqEjanRB6mASy2xw9EAoNO1tDyIsqZbd6mRi0Klz6Ax14EMNIEud8gSJIh4sdlBxbpBWs.Kf5Ulyt2U670q85JRjI1.ZCh1CRHdaG1_Gq1L9QHxCWbHC7c5k7oxnYHGi5HRk- Message-ID: <46008CD0.7050005@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:39:28 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73913 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Smiley in advance Status: O X-Status: To prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power and a possible threat to=20 our so-called "ally" in the Middle East ... hey, "with friends like=20 that, who needs ..." =2E..or a more likely motive: to try to salvage the failed presidency of = its once-vaunted commander-in-chief with a new crisis, the Pentagon is=20 rumored to be ready for a "surgical strike" on Iran=92s nuclear facility.= This would happen closer to the next election, if things are still going = as badly for the Hawks at that time as they are now (in the polls)...=20 even after the planned PR boost of the Bin Laden capture (or at least a=20 close look-alike). The small distraction of a thermonuclear war might also set the stage=20 for a convenient emergency suspension of the election itself until=20 Diebold (gotta luv the name) can get the new software ready. The facility at Natanz Iran is buried deep in the Earth - too deep for=20 any conventional bombs to destroy. The tool of choice for the Generals=20 to overcome this problem is the latest version of the B61 series, the=20 smallest tactical nuclear weapon systems in the arsenal. The B61 is a=20 variable yield bomb which can be calibrated as low as 300 tons TNT=20 equivalent, or has high as 170 kilotons (roughly ten times more than the = Hiroshima bomb. In keeping with our country=92s magnanimous "humanitarian" effort to=20 minimize civilian casualties, this particular nuclear weapon system, the = B61, has been re-engineered and reclassified by the Pentagon as "safe=20 for the surrounding civilian population." The radiation released in the lower yield versions has been minimized to = "acceptable" levels. But how, and what is "acceptable"? There are at least a few observers who believe that some of the new=20 bombs' lack of fallout and low radiation profile is related to using a=20 similar technology which has, as most Vo's are acutely aware, been=20 semi-officially neglected and ostensibly shunned by DoD and DoE - under=20 the guise of cold-fusion pseudo-science ... =2E.. and that whole class of "pathological" science (including Mills) bu= t=20 dealing with specialty versions of deuterium hydride under catastrophic=20 failure modes -- and specifically titanium-deuteride or=20 beryllium-deuteride in which the D is "pre-shrunken," i.e. BGS (below=20 ground state). Supposedly the Ti transmutation products in such a device = do not become terribly radioactive after the explosion and no fission=20 trigger is required. In the case of Beryllium and deuterinos, you might=20 end up with a totally clean nuke. In one version of the B61 - it is rumored that the trigger is even=20 partly electro-mechanical - a type of "compulsator." As you might have=20 guessed, that information is not exactly coincidental to a prior=20 posting, and is derived (guess) from snooping around for information=20 about the compulsator in the trade magazines ... and wondering why so=20 much DARPA funding has gone into miniaturized versions of this power=20 supply, based on filament-wound flywheels. This is the culmination of an effort which all goes back to the infamous = thermal runaway "meltdown" of P&F in 1989. Does anyone really believe=20 that this kind of thing would go unnoticed by the Pentagon? Doh. A=20 "radiation-less nuke" is like a gift from heaven (make that Mars) to=20 these guys. What happened there (the P&F thermal runaway) was that they left a CF=20 apparatus going over the weekend and found on Monday that it had=20 destroyed itself in some kind of violent fashion, leaving a crater in=20 the concrete floor - or not - depending on who reports it. However, the fume hood in which the experiment had been sitting was=20 still intact, so the explanation that fits best with the available=20 facts, according to critics was that there was a hydrogen fire which=20 melted the Pd. The skeptics preferred to not to believe that there had=20 been any kind of CF "meltdown" and that the gouge in floor had been=20 there all along and the Pd just happened to land there. The tests for=20 radiation turned up nothing huge, as is typical for LENR. And=20 surprisingly there are fewer first-hand accounts of this incident than=20 one would think. =2E..almost as if the good Mormon grad assistants and Profs who were=20 there, had been warned to "forget everything you saw". Anyway, because these new weapons, which might be based on a version of=20 that anomaly, need to be field tested - and are now considered to be=20 "safe" or at least as safe as conventional munitions, their use is at=20 the discretion of any old "theater commander." IOW "safe" in this context means that civilians will either die an=20 immediate violent death or else survive without getting cancer. Presidential approval is no longer needed to start this kind of nuclear=20 war, and certainly Congress is not to be consulted ... so the stage is=20 set for all kinds of "deniability" by the White House - if one of these=20 weapons should be discovered to be what it is - nuclear. I should say,=20 used and discovered to be non-conventional. They probably have developed = some kind of acronym or euphemism for it that makes it sound like it=20 really in not even nuclear at all. Daisy-cutter-deluxe. The only 'fly in the ointment' now, is a little Italian woman. Nobody=20 could have foreseen that a silly slip of the tongue ... my "kingdom for=20 a macaca" - that kind of a minor slip, would have put a determined=20 little lady on a collision course with a five-sided freight train. Her constituents hope that she does not meet an untimely accident, as=20 once seemed to be in the cards, courtesy of the Pentagon travel office=20 and their new version of Air-America for Bush-Bashers. Signed, Harry Tuttle, Buddhist reprogrammer & bug-doctor (chants-4-ants) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 20:10:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L3AGTG004872; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:10:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L3AEIo004846; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:10:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:10:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: PQP2 was: Di-Ozone Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:10:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <954550.37277.qm@web82710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <22guv255tdnsd3ks8vdp4tr3gckd4n513e@4ax.com> <45FF49E9.2030403@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45FF49E9.2030403@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:10:09 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73914 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:41:45 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Robin > >> More than evidence on paper, Mills has bottles of the stuff = (literally). >> See http://www.blacklightpower.com/images/Chemicals.jpg > >... old news, and largely meaningless for this discussion. Yes, it is old news, but hardly meaningless. > >What is in those vials, no one but Mills has a clue; and he is likely=20 >just guessing or he would publish more detail. So far, everything which=20 >Mills is even remotely sure of, gets published. Over and over, actually. > >He sent that material out many years ago for analysis (7-8 yrs.?) and=20 >the fact that no independent lab wants to stick their neck out on=20 >significant details (other than to say it is odd) should tell you = something. The fact that the independent labs all ducked for cover tells me that he = is probably right. > >Agreed - there are very likely to be hydrino compounds in there,=20 >compounded with alkali metals, which is the limit of what Mills is=20 >claiming anyway. > >I can pretty much guarantee one thing. There is near ZERO residual=20 >negative charge on any vial, as there would have to be if there were=20 >really such an entity as Hy- in existence: that being the stable,=20 >uncompounded but charged hydride, which had been captured as a pure=20 >species.=20 That's also the definition of a chloride, an iodide, or for that matter = any other anion. Hy- is no different in that regard, and equally unlikely to = result in an overall negative charge on an object. IOW the negative charge of = the Hydrinohydride is balanced by the positive charge on the cations, as in = any normal salt. (Which BTW is why the contents of the bottles look like = salts). >There could be some slight static charge, as is seen with an=20 >electret, but even picograms of a charged stable hydride could not be=20 >contained. > >Needless to say, even for those who accept his experimental evidence,=20 >there is a totally different focus when one is looking of a natural=20 >solar-derived hydrogen species, which CANNOT be negatively charged,=20 >really=20 Why not, the entire solar wind comprises charged particles in an overall = largely neutral plasma? >-- compared to the situation of an alkali hydride in which the=20 >hydrogen is substituted. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 20:30:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L3UTIk011102; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:30:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L3USTh011084; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:30:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:30:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:29:11 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Caves of Mars In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-Td56D.A.GtC.TbKAGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73915 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ...or WMDs? ;-) Harry Terry Blanton wrote: > Do they harbor life? > > http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/03/19/94112.aspx > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 20:45:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L3jhGH021560; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:45:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L3jgPO021543; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:45:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:45:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=eX+OSrl+0xQ60qI+8DHtTb/7NSE5oXJLQj8hJ0wC9RbzOVDA65/hfpDsKxbaPGOExKi/ULvmcmZGJA985eDSlF2lg6E2Iz6uU5Yb+N8uvhsOYfZYjDMVotSc5KUh0yn1ghnhUU64d5TjeirGEqkXfrq80TePHWSGra6Bkbvd5e8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=oRWGMIgkm5ZAdQ4DwkxzohU9GuQRKogQ8qaHS8Bhr9BG1flVimsqbAYZhAS9DKJENzYEJkyx4OwTrjzFYN4djk57oQ7k2Ae/WBMqYL7v+7/NNk/muvct2qBpPfZmcQh9vFeDHwSkedL9ictqUy6JxVMU4RZB5fbvgTFBzgeDWIc= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:45:40 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Caves of Mars In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_178549_26572081.1174448740140" References: Resent-Message-ID: <3TvmfD.A.jQF.lpKAGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73916 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_178549_26572081.1174448740140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And if not then I guess the US will sell them WMD's, and then attack. On 3/21/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > ...or WMDs? > ;-) > Harry > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Do they harbor life? > > > > http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/03/19/94112.aspx > > > > ------=_Part_178549_26572081.1174448740140 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And if not then I guess the US will sell them WMD's, and then attack.

On 3/21/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca > wrote:
...or WMDs?
;-)
Harry

Terry Blanton wrote:

> Do they harbor life?
>
> http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/03/19/94112.aspx
>


------=_Part_178549_26572081.1174448740140-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 22:34:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L5YeKU024858; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:34:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L5YbLU024832; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:34:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:34:09 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> <1e7701c76748$57c84f40$3800a8c0@zothan> <1efjv29sshgmemvv22bp83po0skqdm839i@4ax.com> <002901c7679b$985d1f60$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <002901c7679b$985d1f60$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 21 Mar 2007 05:34:33 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73917 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:20:37 +0100: Hi Michel, [snip] >Faux D being a H-Hydrino molecule (mass ~2 nucleons) looking like a D = atom (mass ~2 nucleons) ?? > >Michel [snip] I coined the term Faux D to describe a one electron atom with a nucleus comprising a Hydrino molecular *ion*. I expect it to be virtually indistinguishable from real D in as much as a Hydrino molecular ion looks= very like a real D nucleus. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 01:24:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L8O28g024380; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:24:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L8NxEd024320; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:23:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:23:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4600EB94.6020501@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:23:48 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OT: Smiley in advance References: <46008CD0.7050005@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <46008CD0.7050005@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73918 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > To prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power and a possible threat to > our so-called "ally" in the Middle East ... hey, "with friends like > that, who needs ..." > I realize we've been through this Jones, but I think they already are a nuclear power. > Harry Tuttle, Buddhist reprogrammer & bug-doctor (chants-4-ants) > opined; ... and that whole class of "pathological" science (including Mills) but dealing with specialty versions of deuterium hydride under catastrophic failure modes -- and specifically titanium-deuteride or beryllium-deuteride in which the D is "pre-shrunken," i.e. BGS (below ground state). Supposedly the Ti transmutation products in such a device do not become terribly radioactive after the explosion and no fission trigger is required. In the case of Beryllium and deuterinos, you might end up with a totally clean nuke. > > In one version of the B61 - it is rumored that the trigger is even > partly electro-mechanical - a type of "compulsator." As you might have > guessed, that information is not exactly coincidental to a prior > posting, and is derived (guess) from snooping around for information > about the compulsator in the trade magazines ... and wondering why so > much DARPA funding has gone into miniaturized versions of this power > supply, based on filament-wound flywheels. Wow Jones, awesome post! I've speculated that this might be possible. In a C to C AM interview earlier, Sean David Morton of Delphi Associates said that Iran is going to start pricing their oil in Euros. This would cause the dollar's value to drop. I was listening to a currency trader, the dollar took a hit on the Forex market over the last 4 months, I guess that's what Forex exchanges are for. Driving down the value of the dollar is one good reason for the mad mullas to go. I'm a rabid Tzionist, so IMHO that's a better reason. They'd like to destroy America, and as I read the prophecies, they will succeed. Eliminating their nuclear power might make that scenario later rather than sooner however. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 01:27:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2L8RQwm021833; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:27:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2L8RNlW021810; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:27:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:27:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4600EC5D.1090507@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:27:09 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73919 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Classical Vs Quantum Mechanics Status: O X-Status: Vortexians; I sent this letter to Hal Puthoff and received a thank you note. The Twin Cities Creation Science Association, http://tccsa.tc/ , set up a meeting with the physicist William Overan last Sunday night. Bill was one of Otto's (Schmitt) graduate students. Otto told me that nuclear magnetic resonance imaging, was one of the medical technologies that came out of his lab. Bill said that he had worked on it's development. He said that, " changes in the frequency of the charge on the probe, will cause the precession speed of the proton to change." He went on to say that "Quantum Mechanics, QM cannot account for this change, but that Classical Mechanics, CM does." Bill is a classical physicist. He rejects QM, and Relativity. He believes that the CM, can produce explanations which are just as good as QM, and are much simpler. CM, with it's cause and effect, fits with our Christian world view. Bill contends that QM grows out of a mystical world view, conducive with Buddhism. Bill has a copy of Petr Beckmann's Einstein Plus Two. In it, Beckmann offers CM explanations for various phenomena, one of which is Taiwa's observation that planetary masses occur at certain distances from the sun. He said that, "Relativity doesn't have an explanation for this, either." He mentioned The writings of Thomas Barnes, author of Physics of the Future and a text book on electrodynamics. He said that, "Barnes believed in an entrained medium," I assume that means the Aether. Then he mentioned Charles W Lucas, www.commonsensescience.org , author of A Classical Basis for Quantum Physics. Which builds on the writings of Barnes. Lucas advocates the Ring Model of the atom. Bill mentioned that Lucas' son made models of the rings, magnetized them, in the preferred direction, and suspended them on strings, he observed their interactions. Based on this, he was able to derive the periodic table. Bill found this quite impressive. I mentioned Russell's Cosmogony, which Bill had never heard of, I'm going to see if the Lucas's have heard of it. Bill mentioned the QM explanation for quantum tunneling, as an example of the sort of mystical explanations for phenomena which the QM world view produces. While he wasn't able to give a CM explanation for the phenomena, he is confident that it would be possible to develop one. He also mentioned -T, which since T2 is positive, QM physicists have concluded that a time travel is possible. Bill characterized this belief as, "nonsense." I mentioned that Otto spent his final years discussing physics with Frank Meyer, emeritus from the Wisconsin State University system. Frank was the president of the association promoting Dewey B Larson's Reciprocal System. I'll always remember Frank saying that. "time is not a dimension, it is a continuum," and "reality is discontinuous." A continuum only goes in one direction. This is consistent with a Christian world view, Rabbi Stan teaches that G-d created a bubble, which has just 7000 years in it. When that period of time ends, we will revert to eternity. I mentioned a lecture series I'm listening to, in which Chuck Missler is going through Isaiah. Missler mentioned tensor calculus, and the stretching of some of the elements. This applies to G-d's stretching out the heavens. This will allow them to be rolled up like a scroll, as prophecized. Missler pointed out that the medieval scholar Moses Mimomades, came to the same conclusion by studying the shape of the Hebrew letters in Genesis 1. He continued by mentioning Gerald L Schroeder's, Orthodox, book Genesis and the Big Bang. I'm going to put that book on my must read list. With regards to dating the age of substances, Bill mentioned the use of isotopic analysis of various samples taken from the same deposit, and the use of differential calculus, to determine the material's age, He uses this analysis to support his belief in a world that's at most 15,000 years old. I mentioned the writings of Jeffery Satinover, Orthodox, who just did graduate work in condensed matter, who believes in the 15 billion year age. I mentioned induced elemental transmutation. Bill mentioned the experiments with chickens which were raised without calcium. An isotopic analysis of the calcium in their bones and shells indicates that the calcium was transmutated from silicon. It amazes me that given the amount of dollars that the world is awash with, and given the limited amount of gold that is supposed to be mined, that the price of gold hasn't gone up way more than it has. Bill recalled a trip he took to a Navy ship where he fixed a laser gyro, and was explaining how they work. He developed a CM explanation for how the three gyros lock together. I don't understand their operation, I'm going to have to read an explanation of how they work. Investigating this matter is going to be near the top of my list of priorities. Bill believes in an Aether. I told him about your articles on the subject. I'm going to send Bill your URL. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 06:35:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LDYshT029580; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 06:34:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LDYngc029554; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 06:34:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 06:34:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c76bbd$b13ec3a0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <4600EC5D.1090507@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:34:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73920 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Classical Vs Quantum Mechanics Status: O X-Status: Howdy Thomas, The word picture of " the heavens will roll up as a scroll" .. hmmm.. An end view of a rolled up scroll describes a "vortex shaped" spiral. As one begans to roll an unfurled scroll the diameter increases. The inverse is that the area of a single roll increases like a roll of paper towels. Interesting math attends production of rolled paper in the "relative speed" of the surface area increases... again hmmm. Didn't I read that in the end times time would appear to speed up. Hey come on !! Time is "constant".. or.. err.. it sure looks like here in Dime Box Texas.. Unless !!.. Somebody a whole lot smarter than us is viewing the spiral from the end instead of the surface area similar to going up a music scale. Sure would explain why I see a 15 billion year old earth that's only 15,000 tears old... Einstein said.. " relative". Time could be a "spiral vortex function like sound, color, the periodic table and position of the planets. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 09:08:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LG8M0b007812; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:08:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LG8KlM007795; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:08:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:08:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321113717.03900558@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:07:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com > References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5129484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73921 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: --=====================_5129484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >The laboratory protocol for Phase 1 of the Galileo Project is >available for any adult who is willing to sign a liability release. This policy makes no sense for the following reasons: 1. Mosier-Boss hopes to publish the protocol in a journal soon. Assuming she has given permission to distribute it now, why withhold it? Of, if there is any legal liability attached, why distribute it at all? 2. Most cold fusion experiments are dangerous. Why single out this one? 3. This protocol was invented in the Navy (NRL), and as far as I know, that makes it pubic property, like the discoveries and inventions made by researchers at NASA. What Krivit is doing is comparable to distributing plans for a NASA rocket -- a rocket being a very dangerous thing to make, after all -- and asking for a liability release. If anyone is hurt it would make as much sense for them to sue the NRL as Krivit. 4. This implies that Krivit has some legal responsibility to prevent people from hurting themselves while doing an experiment. If not, why would he have to indemnify himself? If someone is hurt, the fact that he asked for this release may be taken as evidence that he is responsible. What if someone passes the protocol onto someone else, and the second person is hurt? > Our contact information is > here. The experiment > is not recommended for people without electrochemistry experience. No experiment in cold fusion is recommended for people without electrochemistry experience. >New Energy Institute has selected a new team for Phase 2 of the >Galileo Project. I think it is a very bad idea to have any organization or individual "in charge of" basic scientific research of this nature. No one should be "selecting teams," filtering information, or trying to direct this effort. This goes against academic tradition and common sense. It is also very likely to derail the research and prevent a positive result, for the reasons I discussed here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistor.pdf This protocol along with other information about cold fusion research should be made available to every scientist in the world, once the author is confident that the result is ready for publication. (I am not advocating premature or hastily written papers. We have too many like that already.) Any scientist who wishes to pursue this experiment should be free to do so unhampered by amateurs such as Steve Krivit or me. Krivit is continuing what has become a tradition in cold fusion: keeping research secret, and preventing the spread of valuable information. Two other manifestations of this are in the closed, secret discussions in the CMNS group, and Takahashi's decision not to publish ICCF12 papers on the Internet, and not to allow a native speaker of English to edit the papers (me, or anyone else). The result is that the ICCF12 papers are incomprehensible and unavailable to 99.99% of people who might be interested in them. Hiding information and trying to prevent criticism and open reviews of this research is is a disastrous mistake, and it is contrary to the traditions of academic science. It is a gift to the people who oppose cold fusion. The actions of people such as Krivit and Takahashi cause more harm to the field than than the actions of most harsh skeptics. - Jed --=====================_5129484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Krivit wrote:

The laboratory protocol for Phase 1 of the Galileo Project is available for any adult who is willing to sign a liability release.

This policy makes no sense for the following reasons:

1. Mosier-Boss hopes to publish the protocol in a journal soon. Assuming she has given permission to distribute it now, why withhold it? Of, if there is any legal liability attached, why distribute it at all?

2. Most cold fusion experiments are dangerous. Why single out this one?

3. This protocol was invented in the Navy (NRL), and as far as I know, that makes it pubic property, like the discoveries and inventions made by researchers at NASA. What Krivit is doing is comparable to distributing plans for a NASA rocket -- a rocket being a very dangerous thing to make, after all -- and asking for a liability release. If anyone is hurt it would make as much sense for them to sue the NRL as  Krivit.

4. This implies that Krivit has some legal responsibility to prevent people from hurting themselves while doing an experiment. If not, why would he have to indemnify himself? If someone is hurt, the fact that he asked for this release may be taken as evidence that he is responsible. What if someone passes the protocol onto someone else, and the second person is hurt?


 Our contact information is here. The experiment is not recommended for people without electrochemistry experience.

No experiment in cold fusion is recommended for people without electrochemistry experience.


New Energy Institute has selected a new team for Phase 2 of the Galileo Project.

I think it is a very bad idea to have any organization or individual "in charge of" basic scientific research of this nature. No one should be "selecting teams," filtering information, or trying to direct this effort. This goes against academic tradition and common sense. It is also very likely to derail the research and prevent a positive result, for the reasons I discussed here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistor.pdf

This protocol along with other information about cold fusion research should be made available to every scientist in the world, once the author is confident that the result is ready for publication. (I am not advocating premature or hastily written papers. We have too many like that already.) Any scientist who wishes to pursue this experiment should be free to do so unhampered by amateurs such as Steve Krivit or me.

Krivit is continuing what has become a tradition in cold fusion: keeping research secret, and preventing the spread of valuable information. Two other manifestations of this are in the closed, secret discussions in the CMNS group, and Takahashi's decision not to publish ICCF12 papers on the Internet, and not to allow a native speaker of English to edit the papers (me, or anyone else). The result is that the ICCF12 papers are incomprehensible and unavailable to 99.99% of people who might be interested in them. Hiding information and trying to prevent criticism and open reviews of this research is is a disastrous mistake, and it is contrary to the traditions of academic science. It is a gift to the people who oppose cold fusion. The actions of people such as Krivit and Takahashi cause more harm to the field than than the actions of most harsh skeptics.

- Jed
--=====================_5129484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 09:09:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LG9dXs008250; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LG9cD3008233; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:09:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <165a01c76bd3$510f09c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> <1e7701c76748$57c84f40$3800a8c0@zothan> <1efjv29sshgmemvv22bp83po0skqdm839i@4ax.com> <002901c7679b$985d1f60$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:09:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73922 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry to be so obtuse Robin, do you mean (Hy - Hy)+ with one electron = orbiting around? Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:20:37 = +0100: Hi Michel, [snip] >Faux D being a H-Hydrino molecule (mass ~2 nucleons) looking like a D = atom (mass ~2 nucleons) ?? > >Michel [snip] I coined the term Faux D to describe a one electron atom with a nucleus comprising a Hydrino molecular *ion*. I expect it to be virtually indistinguishable from real D in as much as a Hydrino molecular ion = looks very like a real D nucleus. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 09:17:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LGHLIZ020259; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:17:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LGHJP5020235; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:17:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:17:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46015A62.2090001@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:16:34 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Classical Vs Quantum Mechanics References: <4600EC5D.1090507@usfamily.net> <000f01c76bbd$b13ec3a0$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: <000f01c76bbd$b13ec3a0$c905a8c0@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6bfo8C.A.F8E.OqVAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73923 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: > Howdy Thomas, > > The word picture of " the heavens will roll up as a scroll" .. hmmm.. > An end view of a rolled up scroll describes a "vortex We see a scroll from the front, so I assume that it would be like a sheet of paper which rolls up from both ends > > Didn't I read that in the end times time would appear to speed up. Hey > come on !! Time is "constant".. or.. err.. it sure looks like here in > Dime Box Texas.. The length of the days will decrease. > going up a music scale. Sure would explain why I see a 15 billion > year old earth that's only 15,000 tears old... Einstein The Jewish sages believed that the length of the "days" spoken of in Genesis get longer as you go back in time. Keely and Dale Pond believed that we live in a musical universe. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 09:18:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LGIKnY020698; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:18:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LGII3Y020676; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:18:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:18:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321121702.039e80d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:18:06 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: BLANK In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321113717.03900558@mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070321113717.03900558@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73924 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The title of the previous blank message was supposed to be: "The Galileo Project: Those who do not learn from the past . . ." Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not work! - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 09:22:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LGMfeD023462; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:22:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LGMdQT023437; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:22:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:22:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=suNRwiCPZ8fGyg2rhPtxk842LcJBRWfQxYLork6DwaeX/RlpeKWeYploLDs1/VHdVo+GOvKChB/5grtdMRZexYZJiq+oCUC/GQEzwlnQ+bSi6RIa3lnoclNi+xf1JXtL39aCAxx7ZsATmGc8oteSjZF/AiCbLfsHZ+HqpF5HT/8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=dEMa8l8wKeKsPydNn/y075GYdmo+I3xusMnFWCw3IOtqPa6iHUwTSZ3/8WzYP6bBVoPO/Rfgs9u93U4rFq7ytqv+6PyXlscLpZH/A6e20yvWyytwhaI7HuX11LmAdnOmIaE16Eli3Dl33Hzja7BjzeJ4eiMhTpJlyFssvDYQOy4= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:22:36 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73925 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn Status: RO X-Status: But magnets will NOT save the world. Consider this: There are known recoverable reserves of Rare Earth Elements in the entire world of approximately 6 million metric tons. Of this REE about 20% is neodymium. According to Sean, he expects to get 0.5 W/cc from his technology. The density of NdFeBo magnets is 7.5 g/cc. The Nd content is 27% by weight; so, the density of Nd in a magnet is 2.03 g/cc. This means that we can expect to get 0.5 W per 2.03 g of Nd. With known extractable reserves of 1.2 million metric tons of Nd in the world, if we used ALL the Nd to make electricity, we could generate 1.2 x 10^12 g times 0.25 W/g or 300 Gigawatts. The US generating capacity in Dec of 2005 was 1.07 Terawatts. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:06:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LH6dKq023248; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:06:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LH6bEO023220; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:06:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:06:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ckn3UjezN7lu130Tv7H/J4oIwiWNt/gpMlrxWBPtG9BUwKzZDPrFR9rQxHzsxZl50NPMWibMVlt7PvqIxCx3qbJJEmlKT7+FF8fNPfs6lFjrtGEqPfjFPTy8IhPUuOj7mT9uDwBQxyu7H0kym+6LW4B8YvqUqbfLF/NFBD+OXrI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aDgElTF2yaBo54BN2Dyqc9f+GqayPM0Uxq3JXy/x4X54mdG0O+5xlicdIhXX4eDIl3EYegzUAQwsjPhH6/N6Xt5PyuafGW8729PXFUe+7IDnbIHLq6c3XgnQAalGNZtr7rUuUWfsAws14KGhI0q9DsCUun/Ib/rSs80wupocp+I= Message-ID: <4601742D.6050602@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:06:37 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9fU-HC.A.sqF.dYWAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73926 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > But magnets will NOT save the world. Consider this: > > There are known recoverable reserves of Rare Earth Elements in the > entire world of approximately 6 million metric tons. Of this REE about > 20% is neodymium. According to Sean, he expects to get 0.5 W/cc from > his technology. > > The density of NdFeBo magnets is 7.5 g/cc. The Nd content is 27% by > weight; so, the density of Nd in a magnet is 2.03 g/cc. This means > that we can expect to get 0.5 W per 2.03 g of Nd. > > With known extractable reserves of 1.2 million metric tons of Nd in > the world, if we used ALL the Nd to make electricity, we could > generate 1.2 x 10^12 g times 0.25 W/g or 300 Gigawatts. The US > generating capacity in Dec of 2005 was 1.07 Terawatts. > > Terry Then hopefully he can power the world on C8 ceramic magnets, which are basically 1/3rd the field strength and 1/4th the coercivity as NdFeB magnets. Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:08:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LH8FZk025274; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:08:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LH8De7025237; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:08:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:08:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GEDA4FfMuMWhVBVMSRhs6jn7NI+UnKT1eL+4fSnhVGmPhnXdoo172tNq3FFIHwF9dEbIoz84CXu+FPyhsQYD8whobWZWpIXiZ+R9MMUaR0DPDymH4HcrNa1s0KfUSuEUl85myaDS9vAZI6W1YzNCvNpSBDuUD8+hd/IjBckFkf8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mxjcV/gzPGDXdSKmwMo7kF3NKCtlllELCHEVUl35dwUHvbrHSi9cs1n4Zl0sR5Z+dPkczFyajpZjOoK8tKIglFA7S2ub7vsOrUHaE6/UZilzckixktE3vSyfe9ml13QlqVTX65zGVgEDftKKiUBgcPuFLl8tC1puTBy3x21YgK4= Message-ID: <4601748C.2040206@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:08:12 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73927 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > But magnets will NOT save the world. Consider this: > > There are known recoverable reserves of Rare Earth Elements in the > entire world of approximately 6 million metric tons. Of this REE about > 20% is neodymium. According to Sean, he expects to get 0.5 W/cc from > his technology. > > The density of NdFeBo magnets is 7.5 g/cc. The Nd content is 27% by > weight; so, the density of Nd in a magnet is 2.03 g/cc. This means > that we can expect to get 0.5 W per 2.03 g of Nd. > > With known extractable reserves of 1.2 million metric tons of Nd in > the world, if we used ALL the Nd to make electricity, we could > generate 1.2 x 10^12 g times 0.25 W/g or 300 Gigawatts. The US > generating capacity in Dec of 2005 was 1.07 Terawatts. > > Terry Or possibly some type of new magnet --> http://www.physorg.com/news84643085.html Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:09:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LH9QEX026715; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:09:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LH9OLL026678; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:09:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:09:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070321100934.00af9938@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:12:17 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321113717.03900558@mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com > <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73928 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Thanks for your thoughts and criticism. I agree with some of what you said. If someone wants to do this experiment, they can easily figure it out from published literature. So, they are free to do so. Have a nice day. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:10:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHA8kR027989; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:10:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHA5EE027939; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:10:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:10:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:08:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Classical Vs Quantum Mechanics In-reply-to: <000f01c76bbd$b13ec3a0$c905a8c0@xptower> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73929 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: > Howdy Thomas, > > The word picture of " the heavens will roll up as a scroll" .. hmmm.. An > end view of a rolled up scroll describes a "vortex shaped" spiral. As one > begans to roll an unfurled scroll the diameter increases. If the paper is infinitely thin, you get a spiral in a point. > The inverse is > that the area of a single roll increases like a roll of paper towels. > Interesting math attends production of rolled paper in the "relative speed" > of the surface area increases... again hmmm. > Didn't I read that in the end times time would appear to speed up. Hey come > on !! Time is "constant".. or.. err.. it sure looks like here in Dime Box > Texas.. > Unless !!.. Somebody a whole lot smarter than us is viewing the spiral from > the end instead of the surface area similar to going up a music scale. Sure > would explain why I see a 15 billion year old earth that's only 15,000 tears > old... Einstein said.. " relative". Time could be a "spiral vortex function > like sound, color, the periodic table and position of the planets. > > Richard > Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:16:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHGYC0009099; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:16:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHGWNT009087; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:16:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:16:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0FB0OP18LTn8cfnnp2GeIJZKJfpgQrUm0sKdkYle/fBc+TWwMrxvR6oWSFPcltSnV9k9uJVO56hpQpwErmLfnh9K1+0nRRfm5XZhPoxfmr0TcWXv6TTRflBK+VNQ0KUxdUG+TfwZlma/XPWjsnJHwsNSs/6UmYVUCKtVXHrJQ+Y= ; X-YMail-OSG: XYr6VM4VM1mNdQKZsSyZLNgLcsSBuIT7X0h2S5eUux2Pj0Pt5YNp8rlMq8uVBl0fRITfzZ8Q7rkB7orwmOSurjjhwYeMd4ymFadyH_.anCUz.0qHdckBVt8MEFZfsy8301VBw74np4uNEok- Message-ID: <4601686A.4080606@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:16:26 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73930 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Bad News for Steorn Status: O X-Status: Not sure those supply numbers are accurate. First off, the term: "recoverable" needs to be listed in the context of recoverable "at a price per kg". My Oxford source says that abundance of Nd is very high - Nd=40 ppm in the earths crust... which is surprisingly high - much higher than many common metals like lead. It is particularly abundant in Monazite sand, which is also where Th is found most cheaply. For comparison Th is about 8 ppm or five times less in abundance than Nd, and uranium is only 2.3 ppm - yet ten years ago "proved uranium reserves recoverable at $130/kg" were 3.38 million tons (WEC, 1998) and are now *much* higher with China and Russia entering the free-market, creating oversupply and forcing US producers into bankruptcy. The current price for U due to over-supply is only about $30/kg on the international market, in large amounts. Much higher in the USA. IOW of these three metals, only U has a well-established "tonnage market" and you can probably base the future cost of Nd on that. In actual demand, Nd today is 'chicken feed' compared to many metals (like lead, for instance) and expecially compared to what it will be, *IF* OU magnetics are proved. If the ratio between U, Th and Nd holds - that should put Nd up to around 50 million metric tons recoverable at a similar price - or really much less price per kg (if demand increases) since it is recoverable by the simple expedient of passing PM magnets over crushed Monazite sand.... whereas Th requires chemical leaching, so Nd should be much cheaper to enrich from Monazite if there were real industrial demand. Many Islands like Madagascar are composed of mostly monazite sand. If China really wanted to corner the market (nearly impossible anyway), they would be buying up the monazite sand acreage there - but they have more than they can ever sell anyway at home. It is just a matter of price, politics and supply and demand. The price will come way down before it goes way up - when the demand materializes -- despite what China has been doing lately. Jones ...and this could be good news for other magnet-heads besides Steron, maybe even in Hotlanta.... Terry Blanton wrote: > But magnets will NOT save the world. Consider this: > > There are known recoverable reserves of Rare Earth Elements in the > entire world of approximately 6 million metric tons. Of this REE about > 20% is neodymium. According to Sean, he expects to get 0.5 W/cc from > his technology. > > The density of NdFeBo magnets is 7.5 g/cc. The Nd content is 27% by > weight; so, the density of Nd in a magnet is 2.03 g/cc. This means > that we can expect to get 0.5 W per 2.03 g of Nd. > > With known extractable reserves of 1.2 million metric tons of Nd in > the world, if we used ALL the Nd to make electricity, we could > generate 1.2 x 10^12 g times 0.25 W/g or 300 Gigawatts. The US > generating capacity in Dec of 2005 was 1.07 Terawatts. > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:28:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHSPRu006196; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:28:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHSNZp006175; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:28:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:28:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321130740.03900558@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:27:48 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73931 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >But magnets will NOT save the world. Consider this: > >There are known recoverable reserves of Rare Earth Elements in the >entire world of approximately 6 million metric tons. . . . There is not much in ocean water, either: 3.3 ng/kg. More than Pd or Au, but not enough to extract by any practical means. It is about the same as Ag. See: http://www.agu.org/eos_elec/97025e-table.html Martin Fleischmann made the same point about Pd many years ago. As I recall the estimated that roughly one third of our energy could be produced from it is a cold fusion. I did a back-of-the-envelope estimate and came up with roughly the same number. This does not depend on how much cold fusion energy one might extract theoretically -- which is not known, in any case. It is clear that you can get quite a lot of energy from a small amount of thin-film palladium, but the limiting factor is how much heat that thin-film Pd or other platinum group metal can withstand. That can be estimated from the amount used in an automotive catalytic converter. They use as little as possible, because these metals are expensive. I extrapolated from the amount of energy produced by automobile engines and the amount of Pd and Pt they now consume, and came up with roughly the same answer as Martin did: about a third, or maybe half. If this Pd limitation applies, and you cannot produce CF using some common metal such as Ti or Ni, then we would only use Pd for centralized generators. Or, in the case of the Steorn device, we would only use the magnetic generators for large, baseline power generators that run 24 hours a day, like today's uranium fission generators. We would supplement them with existing hydroelectric, natural gas, wind and so on. However, I think there may be another way to overcome this problem. Assume that CF or the Steorn effect works, and produces very high power density. To some extent, the "recoverable reserves" of any element depends upon the cost of energy. As I indicated above, if you have enough energy to vaporize several cubic square kilometers of ocean water or ordinary rocks, you can recover Ne or other rare elements from these low-density sources. For that matter, you can build rocket engines that are far more efficient than the ones we have today, plus space elevators. From there, you go to the Moon, Mars, the asteroids and various other places in the solar system to prospect for precious metals. 300 GW of Ne-powered rockets is enough to explore the solar system in depth, and bring back megatons of ore -- or perhaps better yet, to refine it on site, and bring back the extracted precious metals only. There is some debate about how much of these precious metals are available elsewhere in the solar system, but I do not think this matters much. Once you leave the Earth's atmosphere and go to the moon or an asteroid, you can then use raw solar energy to vaporize as much low-grade or as you like, and to separate out precious elements using the kind of energy intensive techniques now used to separate out uranium isotopes. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:33:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHXDKm017908; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:33:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHXCTb017884; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:33:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:33:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SufvNjjIa+vDPyYrRanxwMTwyFR4llDAjfzv4he/XlMilKEFQH6cVFIAV+z+RQgdOgdMU6HunhPB6qDZV3a5vX6L0DrfYcqtef3GCHnoDa/UHtQGor4+hl04/ywiBARuGYXGFU2bhghXMAePiY8BhOwuL/jf/YU9MzOxkyND40M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hdi9Z0Amc/d4urIZ/uw+cHzFfoAQnCIeyd2PcAYP772KgWVgmx10orM4laBZ3nlxmuGWCsN72jdnHrg74PD+/Aodrk1dm26TuhpoSDc4rfhDIr++mHQ9NFMvNJrqFPTxEAkflgdR+gLkHdq25WAhmTo8bhr1Mfk6JbkVtHvi73k= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:33:05 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Bad News for Steorn In-Reply-To: <4601686A.4080606@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4601686A.4080606@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73932 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/21/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Not sure those supply numbers are accurate. Here's a comprehensive recent report: http://www.lynascorp.com/content/upload/files/press_releases/BCC_FINAL_REPORT.pdf http://snipurl.com/1dm8v See pp 21-22 The figures include the new Mt. Weld and extraction from sand. The problem is that only the placer mines are cost effective. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:37:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHbFvO019756; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:37:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHbERJ019734; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:37:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:37:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a0QRRzfkx1dQq1IovAXneT5CCHslXUyxAhTg4nJtPlXew8D/FgIxHO38Ob7HXbGSugFG3So5WARP/sLSQbiIPY2uFjqcawpHF7I/b22xi37HkPR2mbeXnYMF/Fl8KhXBGML1nLsvj5FXIaVHqeg63DGCVfQFWNZDD5SjgKxHnN0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QKO9iFF1TOMMbG+UponLF0AQrKiCkLrbEuL9tYCdxv7JS08yx1rREPVIbtW+IqCsgUTksof5NfWKa/gRSbob3qVcu4OU9FJ+gSe/McS2XmgvtDP1MdSc+kSPEWq2wNVsCIJKHmJq9O2mhiSxREx7XhJG5HIM86dU34tIqWG7gEY= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:37:12 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn In-Reply-To: <4601748C.2040206@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4601748C.2040206@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73933 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/21/07, Paul Lowrance wrote: > Or possibly some type of new magnet --> > > http://www.physorg.com/news84643085.html A hydrogen magnet would solve the problem! I think the nanosolar technology will probably dominate. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:39:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHd3h7020540; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:39:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHd2WV020521; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:39:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:39:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=g/7/CMrw/gcLN3xiPrT8NR0J1qSzOxF57Vr/R+RQ7Bg8Wd1NvHANjrTYm2b9krPQ6tRoL+87MmLhlnu9dMpxznAguUz9dNQenKpPpN7qEiQmFsKfMPmb5xXpJO0tB59j045jvqH9a43EYBX+6dweVoAn8peglBzes1eEw+xJ2NI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=s0/8D9cX+d1GjXm0f/azXB1eXFvKj7zt64ob96wQcgeyftAuYGg8Vg2N7JRT7TxEgs0DyeZoZ1ix0vWIfPNGEyj1u+9H6xxlvJs7z8KPCEC4S50Zf9caekmoESGtomChERNp940rZKyo/kPQ0O3gi9ET01f+0oVOWLf0hqrbpUc= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:38:58 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321130740.03900558@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321130740.03900558@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73934 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/21/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > There is not much in ocean water, either: 3.3 ng/kg. Yes, and the problem is that we are already up against the demand curve with present applications. HEV's use a lot of Nd. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:40:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHeBtx016127; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:40:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHe9Yt016104; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:40:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:40:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321132922.039e3cd0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:39:58 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Galileo Project: Those who do not learn from the past . . . In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20070321100934.00af9938@mail.newenergytimes.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com > <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20070321100934.00af9938@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <_s5chD.A.h7D.43WAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73935 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >Thanks for your thoughts and criticism. I agree with some of what you said. In that case your actions contradict your beliefs. >If someone wants to do this experiment, they can=20 >easily figure it out from published literature. Wrong. First, it is not easy. Second, the whole=20 point of the scientific endeavor -- research,=20 publish, inform -- is to make it easier for other=20 people to replicate your work. If you do not tell=20 people what you have done you are not doing=20 science. Keeping a finished, tested protocol=20 secret is the exact opposite of what a scientist=20 is supposed to do. It defeats the purpose. It=20 accomplishes exactly what Robert Park is trying=20 to do: to bury the field, destroy the evidence, keep anyone from finding= out. >So, they are free to do so. Free to do an experiment they have never heard=20 of, about which they know nothing? This is like=20 saying that anyone is free to replicate one of=20 these secret protocols for building magnetic=20 motors, or Stanley Meyer's can that ran on water.=20 All you have to do is speak with a dead man and=20 persuade him to reveal information he spent most=20 of his life hiding. I do not think that a s=E9ance=20 would work, but at least Meyer is no longer=20 capable of throwing a bottle at your head, the=20 way he did when someone went to visit him and asked a polite question. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:41:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHf2XW016791; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:41:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHf0KX016761; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:41:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:41:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:39:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321113717.03900558@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_uVoF3l98qoup4wXHwtLniA)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73936 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_uVoF3l98qoup4wXHwtLniA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I think all Steven needs to do is attach a _disclaimer_ to the documents. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: Steven Krivit wrote: The laboratory protocol for Phase 1 of the Galileo Project is available for any adult who is willing to sign a liability release. This policy makes no sense for the following reasons: 1. Mosier-Boss hopes to publish the protocol in a journal soon. Assuming she has given permission to distribute it now, why withhold it? Of, if there is any legal liability attached, why distribute it at all? 2. Most cold fusion experiments are dangerous. Why single out this one? 3. This protocol was invented in the Navy (NRL), and as far as I know, that makes it pubic property, like the discoveries and inventions made by researchers at NASA. What Krivit is doing is comparable to distributing plans for a NASA rocket -- a rocket being a very dangerous thing to make, after all -- and asking for a liability release. If anyone is hurt it would make as much sense for them to sue the NRL as Krivit. 4. This implies that Krivit has some legal responsibility to prevent people from hurting themselves while doing an experiment. If not, why would he have to indemnify himself? If someone is hurt, the fact that he asked for this release may be taken as evidence that he is responsible. What if someone passes the protocol onto someone else, and the second person is hurt? Our contact information is here . The experiment is not recommended for people without electrochemistry experience. No experiment in cold fusion is recommended for people without electrochemistry experience. New Energy Institute has selected a new team for Phase 2 of the Galileo Project. I think it is a very bad idea to have any organization or individual "in charge of" basic scientific research of this nature. No one should be "selecting teams," filtering information, or trying to direct this effort. This goes against academic tradition and common sense. It is also very likely to derail the research and prevent a positive result, for the reasons I discussed here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistor.pdf This protocol along with other information about cold fusion research should be made available to every scientist in the world, once the author is confident that the result is ready for publication. (I am not advocating premature or hastily written papers. We have too many like that already.) Any scientist who wishes to pursue this experiment should be free to do so unhampered by amateurs such as Steve Krivit or me. Krivit is continuing what has become a tradition in cold fusion: keeping research secret, and preventing the spread of valuable information. Two other manifestations of this are in the closed, secret discussions in the CMNS group, and Takahashi's decision not to publish ICCF12 papers on the Internet, and not to allow a native speaker of English to edit the papers (me, or anyone else). The result is that the ICCF12 papers are incomprehensible and unavailable to 99.99% of people who might be interested in them. Hiding information and trying to prevent criticism and open reviews of this research is is a disastrous mistake, and it is contrary to the traditions of academic science. It is a gift to the people who oppose cold fusion. The actions of people such as Krivit and Takahashi cause more harm to the field than than the actions of most harsh skeptics. - Jed --Boundary_(ID_uVoF3l98qoup4wXHwtLniA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: I think all Steven needs to do is attach a _disclaimer_ to the documents.

Harry

Jed Rothwell wrote:

Steven Krivit wrote:

The laboratory protocol for Phase 1 of the Galileo Project is available for any adult who is willing to sign a liability release.

This policy makes no sense for the following reasons:

1. Mosier-Boss hopes to publish the protocol in a journal soon. Assuming she has given permission to distribute it now, why withhold it? Of, if there is any legal liability attached, why distribute it at all?

2. Most cold fusion experiments are dangerous. Why single out this one?

3. This protocol was invented in the Navy (NRL), and as far as I know, that makes it pubic property, like the discoveries and inventions made by researchers at NASA. What Krivit is doing is comparable to distributing plans for a NASA rocket -- a rocket being a very dangerous thing to make, after all -- and asking for a liability release. If anyone is hurt it would make as much sense for them to sue the NRL as Krivit.

4. This implies that Krivit has some legal responsibility to prevent people from hurting themselves while doing an experiment. If not, why would he have to indemnify himself? If someone is hurt, the fact that he asked for this release may be taken as evidence that he is responsible. What if someone passes the protocol onto someone else, and the second person is hurt?


Our contact information is here <http://newenergytimes.com/contact/contact.htm> . The experiment is not recommended for people without electrochemistry experience.

No experiment in cold fusion is recommended for people without electrochemistry experience.


New Energy Institute has selected a new team for Phase 2 of the Galileo Project.

I think it is a very bad idea to have any organization or individual "in charge of" basic scientific research of this nature. No one should be "selecting teams," filtering information, or trying to direct this effort. This goes against academic tradition and common sense. It is also very likely to derail the research and prevent a positive result, for the reasons I discussed here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistor.pdf

<http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtransistor.pdf> This protocol along with other information about cold fusion research should be made available to every scientist in the world, once the author is confident that the result is ready for publication. (I am not advocating premature or hastily written papers. We have too many like that already.) Any scientist who wishes to pursue this experiment should be free to do so unhampered by amateurs such as Steve Krivit or me.

Krivit is continuing what has become a tradition in cold fusion: keeping research secret, and preventing the spread of valuable information. Two other manifestations of this are in the closed, secret discussions in the CMNS group, and Takahashi's decision not to publish ICCF12 papers on the Internet, and not to allow a native speaker of English to edit the papers (me, or anyone else). The result is that the ICCF12 papers are incomprehensible and unavailable to 99.99% of people who might be interested in them. Hiding information and trying to prevent criticism and open reviews of this research is is a disastrous mistake, and it is contrary to the traditions of academic science. It is a gift to the people who oppose cold fusion. The actions of people such as Krivit and Takahashi cause more harm to the field than than the actions of most harsh skeptics.

- Jed


--Boundary_(ID_uVoF3l98qoup4wXHwtLniA)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:49:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHmfZT022192; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:48:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHmdd8022159; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:48:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:48:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321134244.039f4aa0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:48:08 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Galileo Project: Those who do not learn from the past . . . In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321132922.039e3cd0@mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com > <6.2.0.14.2.20070320173322.03485e78@mail.newenergytimes.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20070321100934.00af9938@mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070321132922.039e3cd0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <34cVoB.A.IaF.2_WAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73937 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote, or rather dictated: >This is like saying that anyone is free to replicate one of these >secret protocols for building magnetic motors, or Stanley Meyer's >can that ran on water. I meant Stanley Meyer's CAR. All macroscopic events have a cause. This error is caused by Atlanta's high pollen count, and the fact that I rode a bicycle to work, which has caused my voice input to malfunction more often than usual. The incident in which Meyer threw the bottle was related to me by Gene Mallove -- who there, but was not the target. It was confidential but both parties are dead now, so I suppose there is no harm in repeating it. Unlike most of the stories & myths that shrouded Meyer this one comes from a trustworthy source. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:49:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHmij1022226; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:48:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHmfe2022194; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:48:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:48:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321134815.039cb4c0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:48:34 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321113717.03900558@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-pEI4C.A.gaF.4_WAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73938 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >I think all Steven needs to do is attach a _disclaimer_ to the documents. Exactly. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:49:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHnhqm022931; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHnf5w022909; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=5yzpGNdMRXNZ6b1XSRWg4MB+loAiZ1EGNqs6RQ72Um5IDRq6n6cHNnu+9Yv7xnnb1ZfNuPnvMAMQ+xb/gihvdUCvYzywHJz+p+11tzxl4bKPs3VDY0ZJCVwiYyYe6DaXdmFtCeujFdUB0TjxeWQ8optGsm522ZCTmx7OnR4Ovcg= ; X-YMail-OSG: ebCS3uIVM1lC97w_KGZ1Z.WnqzTfKV9k8zC.OSfWSmJopojzW7MtpUbPtk.pmMx30BU13Gz81kbEAk1hlR.Cj0GMJSTyxq42iD9PtX.mN6qP8VGQrHYqlGS_oE6sIrABKg_shOjDjvOsF_w- Message-ID: <46017033.4060205@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:39 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Bad News for Steorn References: <4601686A.4080606@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73939 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good report in places, and weak in others. But Terry - the numbers in there are far above what you were indicating in your earlier post, and even then, they manage to leave out some very large potential deposits. The largest source for Monazite - Madagascar does not even appear to be mentioned (political turmoil, or sloppy investigation??). Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/21/07, Jones Beene wrote: >> Not sure those supply numbers are accurate. > > Here's a comprehensive recent report: > > http://www.lynascorp.com/content/upload/files/press_releases/BCC_FINAL_REPORT.pdf > > > http://snipurl.com/1dm8v > > See pp 21-22 > > The figures include the new Mt. Weld and extraction from sand. The > problem is that only the placer mines are cost effective. > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 10:58:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LHvcZ3028694; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:57:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LHvZZC028658; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:57:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:57:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321135126.03b23b50@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:55:28 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321130740.03900558@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321130740.03900558@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2n_dID.A.p_G.NIXAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73940 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >There is some debate about how much of these precious metals are >available elsewhere in the solar system, but I do not think this >matters much. Once you leave the Earth's atmosphere and go to the >moon or an asteroid, you can then use raw solar energy to vaporize >as much low-grade or as you like . . . I meant "low-grade ore." Regarding the prospects for prospecting the solar system, see this interesting web site: http://www.permanent.com/intro.htm This web site is kind of unorganized. For lunar materials, see: http://www.permanent.com/l-overvw.htm Not many metal ores there, at least on the surface. Maybe asteroids or Mars would be a better choice. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 11:08:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LI7k9L004892; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:07:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LI7iRu004866; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:07:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:07:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:06:26 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321130740.03900558@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73941 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As Paul suggests, eventually magnets will be made from synthetic materials, just as we now have fabric (e.g. polyester) made from synthetic materials. We won't have to rely on rare earth elements. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > >> But magnets will NOT save the world. Consider this: >> >> There are known recoverable reserves of Rare Earth Elements in the >> entire world of approximately 6 million metric tons. . . . > > There is not much in ocean water, either: 3.3 ng/kg. More than Pd or > Au, but not enough to extract by any practical means. It is about the > same as Ag. See: > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 11:22:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LIMgHL010949; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:22:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LIMfnb010932; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:22:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:22:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=N24W9pWenJ8l9DVVxoduvVhgGL08FDm/jiyuH3jwksnHNuUa7X9L/dCwMX6u6fZ+S01YEKAVj+eW66T5HaUPUky/4B+IXR5ByjrmysH88rGDhHf+ECfNGqy6IWt7obMPVCgxbPk3rGRUC5p+hvNNyvjpx++xwuXsUXJBkL8uxwo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GhBZAIFTyuWXfVXGshPX1Z92Qa0H6OoTexQT4vG6TG/lwkUVqm5ZlrREVF8SD7/mbPqXA2BnlsYLwCYurw+tke26/GjZMwJ3ztWRDtUa2Iru17v/az0rXZMkZgkO3olxD4QzrMyU8vCo6isgjKmZr69I3KDIYdJuC9XX96p2+Fw= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:22:38 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Bad News for Steorn In-Reply-To: <46017033.4060205@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4601686A.4080606@pacbell.net> <46017033.4060205@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73943 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/21/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Good report in places, and weak in others. > > But Terry - the numbers in there are far above what you were indicating > in your earlier post, and even then, they manage to leave out some very > large potential deposits. The largest source for Monazite - Madagascar > does not even appear to be mentioned (political turmoil, or sloppy > investigation??). I don't think sand extraction is significant in terms of volume. For example, Magnequench ships 80% of all magnetic powder and all their Nd comes from China. I don't think sand extraction is significant in terms of volume. Did you see the note on India on the chart on p. 22? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 11:23:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LIK3Jk012088; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:22:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LIFtcU009719; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:15:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:15:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AkljB0AvaHePkX1VT4InIV3BtU3Wgmdmf+NTOMTomFuWO/vmAjO4fjDh1R+o4OZWzrIYRWBH7OA5J7KwfFm8wTA/qc/japl4zoHTNGOCrXLgU3cwSQVa2Q3jZuL+mCjSw3V7LxKtTv1w/T/F3+H85/8KQvYjrI0MXSIdYUTCP7M= ; X-YMail-OSG: ayu9WbsVM1mHspOjfj8m3cGrenFv0421gzpcsyD254erj.j_AtfzDt5EihVfhgAud4F4WYppPs83f850u5xvuh1cFQiIrpYjBXtIy9TPFk_B6tRj.n6b73B8Zm_iwY1I5pBu1oFNC57LmcU- Message-ID: <46017653.2050109@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:15:47 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <4601686A.4080606@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4601686A.4080606@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73942 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Bad News for Steorn Status: O X-Status: Terry, On closer re-read of that paper, I see where you got that figure, but the derivation of it makes no sense at all - the wild assumptions which were used - and basically they seem to be doing this work to justify the high projected dollar output of a particular mine which has a mixed REO output now at a much lower price. This is closer to politics than science - but isn't everything in the so-called "free market"? IF - one were concerned with getting Nd at the lowest possible price, it would seem to me you would not go this route at all - but would instead refine the metal, along with Th from Monazite. This paper looks like "home cooking" for a particular agenda of the Lynas Corporation. I will try to counter this with articles I have seen on joint extraction of Th and Nd from Monazaite - which is looking at the situation from minimizing costs (to a buyer) rather than maximizing profits (of a seller). Needless to say those agendas are not always harmonious, and the recent run-up in copper prices, for instance, now indicate that suppliers have an upper hand. Does all of this pricing 'difficulty' in basic materials go back to OPEC? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 12:03:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LJ3JeB028017; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:03:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LJ3IrS027999; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:03:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:03:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bVlmxwPzbALCbAM/W9dN+jGWS/4XA0APFHRmtFA+2GfSRUMLu+kcMux7V35NsSGXz6d+/icsuCGaa2J4EkO3CfJKkqqW+1avuL6cdU182NUcI7pxYeTpfzWcHGtu4VsC93DFC5Ye5X/eZO6prI4mrfavIs4cqiiQEpibnb4qhbk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kWgf1NEs73p5nSTPaJVftY5xePRwwkzYaYGtNQIL/s8dRAt62Lv9hMsgPYQ9bP0Hu3BdabzkH2EamGGqSoUWOa2swirncflMlXFP0jnz2cIyEPfPT4LAOdf5AhVsp2RmUF3RoJaVnXvLikgp/RRIZ2jL/aMhAqHgkpOaO6G/coA= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:03:15 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Bad News for Steorn In-Reply-To: <46017653.2050109@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4601686A.4080606@pacbell.net> <46017653.2050109@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8CSlWD.A.b1G.1FYAGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73944 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/21/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry, > > On closer re-read of that paper, I see where you got that figure, but > the derivation of it makes no sense at all - the wild assumptions which > were used - and basically they seem to be doing this work to justify the > high projected dollar output of a particular mine which has a mixed REO > output now at a much lower price. This is closer to politics than > science - but isn't everything in the so-called "free market"? Here is a government report (one you can trust ;-): http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/mcs/2007/mcsapp07.pdf The issue is the definition of "reserve base": "Reserve Base.=97That part of an identified resource that meets specified minimum physical and chemical criteria related to current mining and production practices, including those for grade, quality, thickness, and depth. The reserve base is the inplace demonstrated (measured plus indicated) resource from which reserves are estimated. It may encompass those parts of the resources that have a reasonable potential for becoming economically available within planning horizons beyond those that assume proven technology and current economics. The reserve base includes those resources that are currently economic (reserves), marginally economic (marginal reserves), and some of those that are currently subeconomic (subeconomic resources). The term "geologic reserve" has been applied by others generally to the reserve-base category, but it also may include the inferred-reserve-base category; it is not a part of this classification system." So, if we're willing to pay more, there is more to be had. Current Nd prices are about $12 per pound in m.t. lots. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 12:06:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LJ6bsM029378; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:06:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LJ6ahG029358; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:06:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:06:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321144441.03701020@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:06:28 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bad News for Steorn -- USGS site In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321130740.03900558@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321130740.03900558@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73945 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >solar system to prospect for precious metals. 300 GW of Ne-powered >rockets is . . . Oops. Meant Nd-powered. As in Nd-magnet electric rocket, an Ion or MPD or what-have-you. Regarding the availability of neodymium (Nd), see the USGS page on rare earths: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/rare_earths/ You should see how much the Chinese are mining this stuff! See: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2002/fs087-02/ Quote: "The rare earth elements (REE) form the largest chemically coherent group in the periodic table. Though generally unfamiliar, the REE are essential for many hundreds of applications. The versatility and specificity of the REE has given them a level of technological, environmental, and economic importance considerably greater than might be expected from their relative obscurity. The United States once was largely self-sufficient in these critical materials, but over the past decade has become dependent upon imports (fig. 1). In 1999 and 2000, more than 90% of REE required by U.S. industry came from deposits in China." If the U.S. ever goes to war with China, it will be over in a week. They will just stop selling us just about every high-tech product and material we need, and wait for us to fold up. I doubt we could set up factories to make computer screens or cell phones in time to affect the outcome of a modern war, and without such things, you lose. I do not think it is wise to become so dependent on what remains, after all, a communist dictatorship. The USGS is cognizant of this. It says our dependency on China raises "important issues of REE supply for the United States" including: "(2) United States dependence on imports from China comes at a time when REE have become increasingly important in defense applications, including jet fighter engines and other aircraft components, missile guidance systems, electronic countermeasures, underwater mine detection, antimissile defense, range finding, and space-based satellite power and communication systems." Fig. 4 in this paper is an interesting depiction of element abundance in the earth's upper continental crust. The rare earths are not so rare compared to Au, Pt and Pd. Ir seems to be the rarest of all. Of course, just because an element is common that does not necessarily make it cheap or easy to recover. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 15:02:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LM2Ofe016103; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:02:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LM2Ewo016057; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:02:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:02:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=BljZrGtwybHcFS1fS9m7vIZYZrn7X+oscmJERRqBbQECVZzWKmRK8nQsj9jOena2GrXpbysVkr1+JXGh8Y1kJWUoMiRoElmcJAAGOb0DGdhFvS0+G5ANuvzto9x8uwuboI3vx7vVmy1Ad8qnVNKOfiVNe/M8yuasO66P4Odb8Vs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=C7rPm/4UySb4LSUavlO8hqztyDLA0a8PN67FkMOqM03+Lgp1y/ouMim9q7utCKRspzWoEgHvPDXPSeYZby1z+LZjR5GmP9pZg0xZFv5UJkpVD8yDq9dpbap7RTpn++Bmjoz9z3Mx2YQ9DJS/5QBCiuBMcUSR1DfrWrfGmMvTjy8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:02:10 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_196261_863758.1174514530862" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73946 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_196261_863758.1174514530862 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not work! > >- Jed Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has left anyway. ------=_Part_196261_863758.1174514530862 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not work!
>
>- Jed

Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread.

My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has left anyway.
------=_Part_196261_863758.1174514530862-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 15:18:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LMIh2Y020664; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:18:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LMIgeF020647; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:18:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:18:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:17:47 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <83yoKD.A.dCF.C9aAGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73947 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well Status: O X-Status: Since I chewed out Steve Krivit for his wacky ideas about how research should be directed, it is only fair that I should point out that his newsletter is pretty darn good, and the videos he is uploading are excellent. Years ago I tried to get cold fusion researchers to agree to make this kind of video, but we never got around to doing it. At the time I was thinking of distributing DVDs. That would have been a nightmare. Online video is the answer, and it could develop into a real boon to this field. I am glad that Steve is exploiting it. I do not have the technical wherewithal. I have never even used a video camera. The videos of lectures might be improved by inserting some of the PowerPoint images directly into the video stream. A video producer in Atlanta recommended that technique to me. He can do it, for a reasonable price, too. This is how it is done in the cable TV and website for the University of California Television station, which broadcasts lectures by professors. It is about the only thing I watch on TV, plus "Law & Order" with my wife (this is "the power women's secret vice" -- see link). http://www.uctv.tv/ http://www.slate.com/id/2073983/ ("Secret Vice . . .") The videos seem to be popular. You can tell from the number of people downloading them which you can see by clicking on the funny ">>" at the top right of the display screen. You can display a complete list of them with this command: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22new+energy+institute%22&hl=en (I will insert this somewhere in LENR-CANR. I cannot decide where.) Steve's videos and newsletter attract the general public, whereas my guess is that nearly all of the readers at LENR-CANR.org are professionals, looking for technical details. There is some overlap; Steve has some technical papers and LENR-CANR has some stuff for the general public. But I would say the two sites serve different audiences, and different but equally valuable goals. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 15:20:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LMKhws021442; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:20:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LMKg1j021422; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:20:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:20:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=A/nnDPMxfq3n9L8OdShvSOpiuc17yNbD3/oYgLNh74cO2dQ0dlF85TZyJmMVNu1FiKvQK9jD3oQvVmfr/nnf1vaTq25Qf5rBXsp3h+7KXcl3lABb7rKW4hLwb+IYPymh+m5qcymrs3YvdJ8lJk4p1S6ft3nmaTzX7B/9K5/HVBc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=szPkK4qy4BSJWuoBsJci4c9qSKSZ2zS6mxCkgFFCwag8dc4Jd326QCOw/57xWLfVxjjMeZ1YEqEu5dI0S0/ldvn0fnW/I3knUPunfbUWv7AAyq/prDodC0an44So0/vIkRXmfK1DhFkRmolW43I8iMm6tMFsCe0Qrvckto5sJ+0= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:20:40 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: No Vo vote In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73948 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: i prefer it. having that tag makes it easier to sort out by my filters, and get the vo posts out of the junk folder. On 3/21/07, John Berry wrote: > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not work! > > > >- Jed > > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. > > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has left > anyway. > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 15:51:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LMpiVQ000360; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:51:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LMphpB000353; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:51:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:51:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16e101c76c0b$7f89dd10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:51:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <5iKxf.A.ZF._bbAGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73949 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote Status: RO X-Status: Only in your dreams John :) Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "John Berry" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not = work! >> >>- Jed >=20 > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. >=20 > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has = left > anyway. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 16:33:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2LNX6F4012542; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:33:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2LNX3vc012523; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:33:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:33:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:32:57 -0700 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fix For Missing Subject Lines Message-ID: <20070321233257.GA26499@linux> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73950 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I recently sent Bill a simpler procmail "recipe" (as they're called) for adding the [Vo] tag, and he's going to try it. I used it for incoming messages before he started adding the tag, and it always worked fine. (Procmail is the Unix/Linux program for altering and distributing mail.) Here it is, with an explanation for each line: :0 fhw * ^X-Mailing-List: * !^Subject: .*\[Vo.*\] | sed 's/^Subject: /&[Vo] /' The first line starts the recipe, and specifies these flags: f -- Consider the (forthcoming) pipe as a filter. h -- Feed the header (not the message body) to the pipe. w -- Wait for the filter to finish. The second line is a condition that detects vortex-l posts. If the messages passing through your procmail are all vortex-l posts, you can eliminate this line. If not, make sure that the header line that it's detecting (I'm using "X-Mailing-List:") has been added to the messages before they reach the recipe. The third line is a condition that detects whether the Subject line already contains a string [Vo...] or [vo...] anywhere in its content. If not (the "!" specifies negation), then the fourth (action) line is executed. The fourth line is a call to sed, the Unix stream-editor. If the message satisfies the previous condition line(s), then all of its header lines are piped through this call. It's an "s" (substitution) command, which looks for any line that begins with "Subject: ", and if it finds one, substitutes "Subject: " with "Subject: [Vo] ". ("&" means what it finds, if it finds it.) Mark From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 17:08:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2M08XWX021272; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:08:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2M08W3U021261; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:08:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:08:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Fiv0rys74xxee4buN7v15eBufUzr3ewm+mAMK/x4fTV/qeNZDBDj+2D6bNKczORmoUVy5BXzyMw3IAXlu6ohqtBoYMfl+dcx3ejlY0cmGjmJgyBIwKWTdfTK3gcccFILyobSKWupzoiY7NLU9pqxmombMYO8kR1oYc0uj+GNg2Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=D6idXmj6UbSRo7/ErtUvfn3mYRUynlRmoXyRSGL0W7IBhnD9oAE61QrAWZKRzqHdZ59dXExVG89jpS8AEesLZxGMppBXxXjdYhK9ymotTGctxySmaK+10hpxVQ4oOYQd1/TtPcY4DOzeZ1r9nI2sCpTTTAsd+IUC9X0TvKHhPTw= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:08:31 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote In-Reply-To: <16e101c76c0b$7f89dd10$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_198146_16649703.1174522111238" References: <16e101c76c0b$7f89dd10$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73951 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_198146_16649703.1174522111238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Your post made my point. It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by subject. Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger But mainly subject deletion which is really bad. If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to create a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To: vortex-l@eskimo.comfield Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude but it seems not. On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Only in your dreams John :) > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Berry" > To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM > Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote > > > > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not work! > >> > >>- Jed > > > > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. > > > > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has > left > > anyway. > > > > ------=_Part_198146_16649703.1174522111238 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Your post made my point.
It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by subject.
Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone
or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger

But mainly subject deletion which is really bad.
If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to create a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To: vortex-l@eskimo.com field

Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude but it seems not.

On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Only in your dreams John :)

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" < aether22@gmail.com>
To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM
Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote


> >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not work!
>>
>>- Jed
>
> Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread.
>
> My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has left
> anyway.
>


------=_Part_198146_16649703.1174522111238-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 17:14:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2M0EQDu017156; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:14:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2M0EObg017134; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:14:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:14:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <171101c76c17$0b4223c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <16e101c76c0b$7f89dd10$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:14:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73952 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stop the ad hominem please. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote > Your post made my point. > It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by = subject. > Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: = Di-Ozone > or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger >=20 > But mainly subject deletion which is really bad. > If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to = create > a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To: = vortex-l@eskimo.comfield >=20 > Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude = but it > seems not. >=20 > On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> Only in your dreams John :) >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Berry" >> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM >> Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote >> >> >> > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not = work! >> >> >> >>- Jed >> > >> > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. >> > >> > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added = has >> left >> > anyway. >> > >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 17:28:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2M0SPW1023254; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:28:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2M0SN2j023237; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:28:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:28:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=uKfINLSHJhNYaYHbfqFbe8XYbpTcddLyg4OyYh5Qzj2fZqGZleQkiRfTuFdhk8NfXev2ALXkzVxiO3TvAsCWClxr5ME6O8a23lHtxbwD6t3+UdG6XfTafzzRbRg2QfRhMqjSRdZnaXxfK5bZXxWwxyLQ6/hIVGNYguZbO+zxLww= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=jAMl36rG9Qu2rZKqCgGeg/aDgs7YZEv8/0tFDZ5nVi676sKY55pa7aRstClxMhjyJ4ziIzp1+pw8oNGRi2vrHoT39fEO4+P2NxrJjfoRWTMmvo1rz7UL36G1jzaCKvpXHGTrp8N68vDfvI2cEejyI3kf2Oqc565RSCdOP6ioE60= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:28:20 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote In-Reply-To: <171101c76c17$0b4223c0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_198310_22554695.1174523300781" References: <16e101c76c0b$7f89dd10$3800a8c0@zothan> <171101c76c17$0b4223c0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73953 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_198310_22554695.1174523300781 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I sure hope you're trying to be funny. On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Stop the ad hominem please. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Berry" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote > > > > Your post made my point. > > It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by > subject. > > Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: > Di-Ozone > > or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger > > > > But mainly subject deletion which is really bad. > > If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to > create > > a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To: > vortex-l@eskimo.comfield > > > > Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude > but it > > seems not. > > > > On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > >> Only in your dreams John :) > >> > >> Michel > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "John Berry" > >> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM > >> Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote > >> > >> > >> > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not > work! > >> >> > >> >>- Jed > >> > > >> > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. > >> > > >> > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has > >> left > >> > anyway. > >> > > >> > >> > > > > ------=_Part_198310_22554695.1174523300781 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I sure hope you're trying to be funny.

On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Stop the ad hominem please.

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: < vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote


> Your post made my point.
> It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by subject.
> Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone
> or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger
>
> But mainly subject deletion which is really bad.
> If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to create
> a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To: vortex-l@eskimo.comfield
>
> Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude but it
> seems not.
>
> On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
>>
>> Only in your dreams John :)
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
>> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM
>> Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote
>>
>>
>> > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not work!
>> >>
>> >>- Jed
>> >
>> > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread.
>> >
>> > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has
>> left
>> > anyway.
>> >
>>
>>
>


------=_Part_198310_22554695.1174523300781-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 17:33:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2M0WsL8025536; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:32:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2M0WqFU025514; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:32:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:32:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:32:17 -0600 Message-ID: <002f01c76c19$9a506250$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <171101c76c17$0b4223c0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdsF3I95/0L9IIvSK6brhs+yRfW/AAAYCRw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73954 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Actually, John's assessment is correct and there were no ad hominem remarks made by him. You still seem not to have toned down your smug attitude and continue to incite negative responses. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote Stop the ad hominem please. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote > Your post made my point. > It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by subject. > Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone > or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger > > But mainly subject deletion which is really bad. > If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to create > a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To: vortex-l@eskimo.comfield > > Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude but it > seems not. > > On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> Only in your dreams John :) >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Berry" >> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM >> Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote >> >> >> > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not work! >> >> >> >>- Jed >> > >> > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. >> > >> > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has >> left >> > anyway. >> > >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 20:02:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2M32g6r004389; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:02:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2M32eeE004370; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:02:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:02:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070321195022.027df198@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:05:40 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73955 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, At 06:17 PM 3/21/2007 -0400, you wrote: >Since I chewed out Steve Krivit for his wacky ideas about how research >should be directed, it is only fair that I should point out that his >newsletter is pretty darn good, and the videos he is uploading are excellent. Thank you for your opinions. As usual, I agree with you on some of your points. ;) >The videos of lectures might be improved by inserting some of the >PowerPoint images directly into the video stream. Three ways to do it. You can insert them into the stream with a mixer during production and some extra cabling, pan the camera back and forth from speaker to screen, or with an overlay in post-production. I've been trying to do as much as possible during production, using the second method, and I also use the third method. I try to balance the scene on the speaker vs. the scene on the slides. It helps to know what to expect from some speakers and some of their work. Bob Bass for example, will just throw up full pages of text, so that is pretty useless screen content. Other speakers will bore the audience to death if you leave the camera on them for too long. Won't name names - think He-4. What's pretty hard is getting sufficient light on the speakers because the room lighting is generally dimmed for the screen. Don't sell yourself short Jed - if you can learn Japanese, electrochemisty and nuclear physics you could learn how to do video. I've had no formal training on video production or post-production. It's basically like making a slide show, 32 "slides" per second. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 22:36:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2M5aZ2S003907; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:36:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2M5aXVN003889; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:36:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:36:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:36:33 -0700 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote Message-ID: <20070322053633.GD26499@linux> References: <16e101c76c0b$7f89dd10$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73956 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, Mar 22, 2007 at 12:08:31PM +1200, John Berry wrote: >... >for those who want to create a filter for vortex posts >they can just use the To: vortex-l@eskimo.com field That won't work if the sender puts the list address in the Cc: or Bcc: line instead of the To: line (unless the list server rewrites the To: line). Better to use one of these lines which the server seems to add to all vortex-l posts: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73953 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I've been using "X-Mailing-List: ". If any [Vo] posts show up in your unfiltered mail file, then choose a different line to filter on. Mark From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 23:42:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2M6gAO1020450; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:42:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2M6g7ih020434; Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:42:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:42:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <173b01c76c4d$37aaa3c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <002f01c76c19$9a506250$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:42:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <284ONC.A.O_E._UiAGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73957 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stop the ad hominem David. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "David Thomson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:32 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote > Actually, John's assessment is correct and there were no ad hominem = remarks > made by him. You still seem not to have toned down your smug attitude = and > continue to incite negative responses. >=20 > Dave >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:14 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote >=20 > Stop the ad hominem please. >=20 > Michel >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "John Berry" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote >=20 >=20 >> Your post made my point. >> It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by = subject. >> Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: = Di-Ozone >> or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger >>=20 >> But mainly subject deletion which is really bad. >> If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to > create >> a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To: > vortex-l@eskimo.comfield >>=20 >> Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude = but > it >> seems not. >>=20 >> On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>> Only in your dreams John :) >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John Berry" >>> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM >>> Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote >>> >>> >>> > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not > work! >>> >> >>> >>- Jed >>> > >>> > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. >>> > >>> > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added = has >>> left >>> > anyway. >>> > >>> >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 00:50:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2M7eYjZ012816; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:40:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2M7eW66012776; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:40:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:40:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=sxqjMd8R9xa6MK6PX8uBuyT+jNUd0k9vIxohxk1ZiHbzRWFaMmJmDx19PgEAEX1Jgx8EM2mc32L4MZJWtZvpVGoO3ZeoKi9YIJ+5vx8mtdhNtOIDvrIIee+ClWmwO61p9AkGldnSPoRNt66IarecGd9LexbKk8t7VR76gpBpIC4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=JelMU/dbMUpq98YS+j6BAzBl1Q2+omQzp6JwIBq1RADyIoBRrUJt91ruQ1ohkbS9ZTFzSuE/SDWoJvE5juYOAN2ad0CwfblImXq96oPVW0MDc+9AoYy5XIcvis9DpwQGHCIC1ZsbdMiWJhQd1tTe3zWg3qwmHql645FUsABT1Zw= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:40:30 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote In-Reply-To: <173b01c76c4d$37aaa3c0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_192202_12701820.1174549230159" References: <002f01c76c19$9a506250$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <173b01c76c4d$37aaa3c0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73958 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_192202_12701820.1174549230159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You must know you're not fooling anyone, including yourself. So all you are doing is making a self parody, it's amusing but kinda sad. On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Stop the ad hominem David. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Thomson" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:32 AM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote > > > > Actually, John's assessment is correct and there were no ad hominem > remarks > > made by him. You still seem not to have toned down your smug attitude > and > > continue to incite negative responses. > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:14 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote > > > > Stop the ad hominem please. > > > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Berry" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:08 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote > > > > > >> Your post made my point. > >> It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by > subject. > >> Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: > Di-Ozone > >> or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger > >> > >> But mainly subject deletion which is really bad. > >> If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to > > create > >> a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To: > > vortex-l@eskimo.comfield > >> > >> Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude > but > > it > >> seems not. > >> > >> On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> > >>> Only in your dreams John :) > >>> > >>> Michel > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "John Berry" > >>> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM > >>> Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote > >>> > >>> > >>> > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not > > work! > >>> >> > >>> >>- Jed > >>> > > >>> > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread. > >>> > > >>> > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has > >>> left > >>> > anyway. > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > ------=_Part_192202_12701820.1174549230159 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You must know you're not fooling anyone, including yourself.
So all you are doing is making a self parody, it's amusing but kinda sad.

On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Stop the ad hominem David.

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Thomson" <dwt@volantis.org>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote


> Actually, John's assessment is correct and there were no ad hominem remarks
> made by him.  You still seem not to have toned down your smug attitude and
> continue to incite negative responses.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michel Jullian [mailto:mj@exbang.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:14 PM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote
>
> Stop the ad hominem please.
>
> Michel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: No Vo vote
>
>
>> Your post made my point.
>> It added Re: which because it is after the {Vo} isn't grouped by subject.
>> Even worse sometimes a second re: gets added as in: [Vo]: Re: Re: Di-Ozone
>> or even [VO]:Re:[VO] .. Schauberger
>>
>> But mainly subject deletion which is really bad.
>> If Mark S Bilk's fix works all the better, but for those who want to
> create
>> a filter for vortex posts they can just use the To:
> vortex-l@eskimo.comfield
>>
>> Anyway I thought you might have toned down the condescending attitude but
> it
>> seems not.
>>
>> On 3/22/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Only in your dreams John :)
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
>>> To: "vortex-l" < vortex-L@eskimo.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 PM
>>> Subject: [Vo]: No Vo vote
>>>
>>>
>>> > >Bill: Let's get rid of this crazy "Vo:" adding macro. It does not
> work!
>>> >>
>>> >>- Jed
>>> >
>>> > Agreed, let's make this a 'me too!' thread.
>>> >
>>> > My understanding is that the person who lobbied to have it added has
>>> left
>>> > anyway.
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>


------=_Part_192202_12701820.1174549230159-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 03:45:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MAjO7Z025517; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:45:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MAjM4v025503; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:45:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:45:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:45:02 -0600 Message-ID: <001e01c76c6f$2e4015f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C76C3C.E3A5A5F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdsVbniLNl/NKynRxS51p047Ixb3gAGP+Ww In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73959 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Water vortex footage Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C76C3C.E3A5A5F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anybody here seen the NOVA Megaflood program? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/megaflood/ There is some interesting water vortex footage in here that will inspire a lot of interesting experiments. If you know what to look for, you can see how this ties to Keely, Schauberger, the Windhex machine, and numerous other implosion technologies. Dave ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C76C3C.E3A5A5F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Has anybody here seen the NOVA Megaflood = program?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/= nova/megaflood/

There is some interesting water vortex footage in here that will inspire a lot of interesting experiments.  If you know what to look for, you can see = how this ties to Keely, Schauberger, the Windhex machine, and numerous other = implosion technologies.

Dave

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C76C3C.E3A5A5F0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 07:15:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MEFXo7020302; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:15:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MEFVCq020280; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:15:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:15:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=myDSu7Hln+DLfG2ideQjAWzSWKQSbjTAsVDwjdkI95BPatqtWOZQ2GGZJTGWqlGLA3K7yOXDGQvlO5B2IZ57fiPLvCukydCmjyN8+6yFOSLDukCabN+GIhfOqtrS3647uGnDLHe6q24+6wFAj8ReNbFIzQqdlmeD1qf6ZnExtcU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=LETI7fOV53tYh9a7ykkCawXc4abg+PZzM/B30GhbppPImRw3YQbRqnF5EjMzn0fHGeXai2zSaV1EviyAGA3H8jpOU36fnCwdTqtkk6hSOEF+AGvGmuxccuE+5kI99vuX0QuI0a9l1/Ix3n9R6CSPKIroa75otCsfAm4bhlI+8g4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:15:30 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73960 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Starsolar Another Cell Technology Status: O X-Status: http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18415/ excerpt: "MIT researchers developed sophisticated computer simulations to understand how thin layers of photonic crystal could be engineered to capture and recycle the photons that slip through thin layers of silicon. Silicon easily absorbs blue light, but not red and infrared light. The researchers found that by creating a specific pattern of microscopic spheres of glass within a precisely designed photonic crystal, and then applying this pattern in a thin layer at the back of a solar cell, they could redirect unabsorbed photons back into the silicon. Today's solar cells already reflect some of the light that passes through the silicon. But the photonic crystal has distinct advantages. Conventional solar cells are backed with a sheet of aluminum. The photonic crystal reflects more light than the aluminum does, especially once the aluminum oxidizes. And the photonic crystal diffracts the light so that it reenters the silicon at a low angle. The low angle prevents the light from escaping the silicon. Instead, it bounces around inside; this increases the chances of the light being absorbed and converted into electricity. As a result, the photonic crystal can increase the efficiency of solar cells by up to 37 percent, says Peter Bermel, CTO and a cofounder of StarSolar. This makes it possible to use many times less silicon, he says, cutting costs enough to compete with electricity from the grid in many markets. The savings would be especially large now, since a current shortage in refined silicon is keeping solar-cell prices high and slowing the growth of solar-cell production." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 08:50:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MFo81G019845; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:50:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MFkF2k014689; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:46:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:46:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322113937.037431c8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:46:08 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20070321195022.027df198@mail.newenergytimes.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20070321195022.027df198@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73961 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >Three ways to do it. You can insert them into the stream with a >mixer during production and some extra cabling, pan the camera back >and forth from speaker to screen, or with an overlay in post-production. The video production guy in Atlanta recommends the following method: Keep one camera on the speaker all the time. Adjust it to show the speaker was the best light and sound conditions. Use another camera (maybe smaller or less good) to point to display the images, the audience or what-have-you. After the shoot, insert PowerPoint slides directly into the video, where the second camera shows they should appear. You can also insert an animated moving red dot to replace the laser pointer, or you can illuminate rows or columns from a table using PowerPoint, and insert an altered version of the slides that emphasize what the speaker pointed the laser to during the talk. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 09:08:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MG7mgi028226; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:07:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MG7elO028099; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:07:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:07:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ijnHRlmOuipsHfZzhSCdMHp+9Zq2UUQQHeetrnd2XN0C3Ix4eGJGyPVl/+i8Rh5HH6NjuhW6FbMIOfaXIEXzK7XcRYL46o7wsEcMZIe86BHg6vfKZhxX6RVQfOVYFlxCwuCrmlLNO+1P5ywhEn7GhfoUM+VR78wtF5epqLqidSM= ; X-YMail-OSG: x9G8Sq0VM1muw5PBtba6v9gg.vKWjuOTv_HaQOgAB.tE_YrY4QNVbtBUImuXB2dP5yrEnWYrEqh28.FxbPEK7faIi7dBATt5jGYjXqwd0sQHJQGDXetRT3XuOECujd2zezW6mRKuQS97hFU- Message-ID: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:07:29 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73962 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Scam or no? Status: O X-Status: A small auto racing company called "Zigouras" has gotten into the "ultra-efficient electrolysis" fray and claims to power an ICE on self-generated hydrogen [Brown's Gas] with zero gasoline. Money back guarantee! The inventor, Paul Zigouras summarized the main details on another forum: 1. The cell is 316L grade s/s plates [Brown's Gas type] spaced at only 0.025 inch apart (0.6 mm) 2. Water goes in one end and gas comes out the other 3. The current drive is via many FET transistors in parallel 4. The output waveform is a "perfect" square wave as that has all harmonics in it 5. The central frequency is about 40 kHz 6. There is a frequency modulation "wobble" of the signal +1 to -3 kHz around the base frequency. 7. The current draw at 13.8 volts is between 160 and 190 amps. 8. A cell of about 20 plates 3" x 10" is capable of generating 20,000 litres of gas per minute. 9. The voltage applied to the cell never falls below +1 volt. As one side of the cell is connected to +13.8 volts, that means that the other side of the cell never goes above +12.8 volts. In other words, the square wave switches between zero volts and +12.8 volts 40,000 times per second. 10. Paul Z. developed his circuit by modifying the circuit from Kevin at www.waterforfuel.com. However, it is likely that Paul's final circuit does not have very much in common with Kevin's circuit as Paul did a good deal of development and testing. The company is in Brockton, Mass. They sound like they are onto something which is seemingly scientifically impossible. http://www.zigourasracing.com/ I would not even have mentioned it - since the claim is preposterous on its surface (although others have been making the same claim since "Dad" Garrett in 1935, especially Stan Meyers)... except that Zigouras do seems to be a valid racing outfit - so they must know a thing or two about engines. Zigouras Racing is building and recently started selling (on eBay!) this water-fuel technology (BG electrolysis) unit which sounds too good to be true, and probably is hyped-up beyond a real ability to validate, but anyway.... is there any anomaly at all in what they are doing? They have an electroyzer driven by very high amps off of a beefed up alternator in an auto - they are claiming to be capable of electrolyzing 5 gallons of water per minute (impossible !) and then using only this (part steam part H2 and O2 or Brown's gas) to power a vehicle with no gasoline! Not the first time this claim has been made, of course. Stanley Meyer returns from the grave . Below is data from their eBay ad which appeared here (may be lapsed): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120086147205 "This is our first production ECM (electronic control module) for our standard water cell. This ECM is pictured on the right, and is rated at 150 amps output. This module comes completely calibrated to our 14-plate cell, and is plug-and-play -- no tuning required. If you are planning on running your car strictly on water, without the use of gasoline, this ECM will run the car just fine as long as your engine is around 2.5 L or so. Larger engines will have limited throttle response, and should use the larger ECM (pictured on the left) which is rated at up to 400 amps. This larger ECM will be auctioned off in a few days on ebay. The unit in this auction is capable of putting out over 150 amps (12VDC) at 35khz. This intelligent unit modifies the signal to allow for peak HHO gas output, while drawing minimal current. On smaller engines, you can generate up to 90 horsepower with our 14-plate cell, and over 150 horsepower with our 30-plate cell. The 30-plate cell requires the heavy duty version of this ECM, which only costs slightly more than the smaller version. This is version 1.0A of the ECM, which does not have any type of safeties built into it. Shorting the plates could cause damage to the electronics, so we recommend only using our cells for your projects. ECM has a 90 day warranty, if installed and used correctly. Warranty covers the ECM only -- labor and shipping is not included. If you are looking to run a V8 or other type of large engine, please call engineering at (508) 583-5133. We are currenty designing an ECM specifically for larger engines, even though doing so will consume a tremendous amount of water. Technical support is provided for the ECM at the number above, however, it should be pretty self-explanitory. There are only 2 wires in, and 2 wires out to the cell, so it is very easy to connect. Please note that using any other electrolysis cells other than ours will VOID your warranty. Buyer pays S&H. More later, Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 10:19:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MHJebq013151; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:19:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MHJcQD013131; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:19:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:19:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <17b101c76ca6$45108530$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:19:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73963 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Scam or no? Status: O X-Status: I wouldn't trust the money back guarantee ;-) The ebay auction page says: Sold for:US $1,150.00=20 Auction ended early with Buy It Now.=20 So it seems they found a... what shall we call him/her... customer ;-) Note it's a scam which can reduce GW actually, in that it allows your = ICE to run on electricity :) Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 5:07 PM Subject: [Vo]: Scam or no? >A small auto racing company called "Zigouras" has gotten into the=20 > "ultra-efficient electrolysis" fray and claims to power an ICE on=20 > self-generated hydrogen [Brown's Gas] with zero gasoline. Money back=20 > guarantee! >=20 > The inventor, Paul Zigouras summarized the main details on another = forum: >=20 > 1. The cell is 316L grade s/s plates [Brown's Gas type] spaced at only = > 0.025 inch apart (0.6 mm) > 2. Water goes in one end and gas comes out the other > 3. The current drive is via many FET transistors in parallel > 4. The output waveform is a "perfect" square wave as that has all=20 > harmonics in it > 5. The central frequency is about 40 kHz > 6. There is a frequency modulation "wobble" of the signal +1 to -3 kHz = > around the base frequency. > 7. The current draw at 13.8 volts is between 160 and 190 amps. > 8. A cell of about 20 plates 3" x 10" is capable of generating 20,000=20 > litres of gas per minute. > 9. The voltage applied to the cell never falls below +1 volt. As one=20 > side of the cell is connected to +13.8 volts, that means that the = other=20 > side of the cell never goes above +12.8 volts. In other words, the=20 > square wave switches between zero volts and +12.8 volts 40,000 times = per=20 > second. > 10. Paul Z. developed his circuit by modifying the circuit from Kevin = at=20 > www.waterforfuel.com. However, it is likely that Paul's final circuit=20 > does not have very much in common with Kevin's circuit as Paul did a=20 > good deal of development and testing. >=20 >=20 > The company is in Brockton, Mass. They sound like they are onto=20 > something which is seemingly scientifically impossible. >=20 > http://www.zigourasracing.com/ >=20 > I would not even have mentioned it - since the claim is preposterous = on=20 > its surface (although others have been making the same claim since = "Dad"=20 > Garrett in 1935, especially Stan Meyers)... except that Zigouras do=20 > seems to be a valid racing outfit - so they must know a thing or two=20 > about engines. >=20 > Zigouras Racing is building and recently started selling (on eBay!) = this=20 > water-fuel technology (BG electrolysis) unit which sounds too good to = be=20 > true, and probably is hyped-up beyond a real ability to validate, but=20 > anyway.... is there any anomaly at all in what they are doing? >=20 > They have an electroyzer driven by very high amps off of a beefed up=20 > alternator in an auto - they are claiming to be capable of = electrolyzing=20 > 5 gallons of water per minute (impossible !) and then using only this=20 > (part steam part H2 and O2 or Brown's gas) to power a vehicle with no=20 > gasoline! Not the first time this claim has been made, of course.=20 > Stanley Meyer returns from the grave . >=20 > Below is data from their eBay ad which appeared here (may be lapsed): >=20 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D120086147205 >=20 > "This is our first production ECM (electronic control module) for our=20 > standard water cell. This ECM is pictured on the right, and is rated = at=20 > 150 amps output. This module comes completely calibrated to our = 14-plate=20 > cell, and is plug-and-play -- no tuning required. If you are planning = on=20 > running your car strictly on water, without the use of gasoline, this=20 > ECM will run the car just fine as long as your engine is around 2.5 L = or=20 > so. Larger engines will have limited throttle response, and should use = > the larger ECM (pictured on the left) which is rated at up to 400 = amps.=20 > This larger ECM will be auctioned off in a few days on ebay. The unit = in=20 > this auction is capable of putting out over 150 amps (12VDC) at 35khz. = > This intelligent unit modifies the signal to allow for peak HHO gas=20 > output, while drawing minimal current. On smaller engines, you can=20 > generate up to 90 horsepower with our 14-plate cell, and over 150=20 > horsepower with our 30-plate cell. The 30-plate cell requires the = heavy=20 > duty version of this ECM, which only costs slightly more than the=20 > smaller version. This is version 1.0A of the ECM, which does not have=20 > any type of safeties built into it. Shorting the plates could cause=20 > damage to the electronics, so we recommend only using our cells for = your=20 > projects. ECM has a 90 day warranty, if installed and used correctly.=20 > Warranty covers the ECM only -- labor and shipping is not included. If = > you are looking to run a V8 or other type of large engine, please call = > engineering at (508) 583-5133. We are currenty designing an ECM=20 > specifically for larger engines, even though doing so will consume a=20 > tremendous amount of water. Technical support is provided for the ECM = at=20 > the number above, however, it should be pretty self-explanitory. There = > are only 2 wires in, and 2 wires out to the cell, so it is very easy = to=20 > connect. Please note that using any other electrolysis cells other = than=20 > ours will VOID your warranty. Buyer pays S&H. >=20 > More later, >=20 > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 10:30:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MHU2UF019912; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:30:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MHMr1E014526; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:22:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:22:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:15:51 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? In-Reply-To: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73964 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >They have an electroyzer driven by very high amps off of a beefed up >alternator in an auto - they are claiming to be capable of >electrolyzing 5 gallons of water per minute (impossible !) and then >using only this (part steam part H2 and O2 or Brown's gas) 5 gallons = 19 liters; 19 kg. The heat of vaporization of water is 540 cal/g, so they are claiming at least 42 MJ/min energy production. That is the least amount; actually there would be much more, if a substantial fraction of the water is converted to free H2 and O2. Let's say it is 84 MJ/min. That's equivalent to 2 kg of gasoline a minute, or 1.4 MW. The biggest racing car engines are about 200 kW. 1.4 MW is enough for large railroad locomotive or WWII era fighter aircraft. If you put that much energy into something the size of an automobile engine, it would melt. I vote scam. The claim is preposterous, and the supposed output is off by a factor of 7 or more. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:10:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MIAQff001060; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:10:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MIAOkA001041; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:10:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:10:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:10:22 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_9ed771f93f6606c10c3e3d75d165106f" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070322181514.B038DBFB69@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73965 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: A suprising comment from. Dr. Park: Status: RO X-Status: --=_9ed771f93f6606c10c3e3d75d165106f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: A suprising comment from. Dr. Park: See the following article from Chemistry World: http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/March/22030701.asp http://tinyurl.com/26q8ag ... > Acceptance by the scientific community is still the main > target for cold fusion advocates - hence the importance > of replication, appearing at major conferences, and > publishing in peer reviewed journals. In this at least, > success seems imminent: Miley says his cold fusion paper > is the first to be accepted to the Journal of Fusion Energy, > which normally covers 'hot' thermonuclear fusion or > sonofusion (which uses pulses of sound to rapidly compress > bubbles in liquids). Meanwhile, Scott Chubb, who chaired a > cold fusion session at an APS meeting in March, feels that > Physical Review Letters, one of the top physics journals, > may finally start accepting papers in the field. Avowed > critics of cold fusion don't see anything to shout about, > though. Frank Close, of the University of Oxford, UK, says > he sees no renewed interest, 'just the usual suspects > recycling'. Indeed, Fleischmann's ACS report is a > re-presentation of research from the 1990s, showing that > his calorimetry measurements were accurate. Bob Park, at > the University of Maryland, US, agrees, but concedes that > 'there are some curious reports - not cold fusion, but > people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear > reactions'. Park apparently states, "...not cold fusion" but then adds "...people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions." Which is it? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_9ed771f93f6606c10c3e3d75d165106f Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: A suprising comment from. Dr. Park:

See the following article from Chemistry World:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/March/22030701.asp
http://tinyurl.com/26q8ag

...

> Acceptance by the scientific community is still the main
> target for cold fusion advocates - hence the importance
> of replication, appearing at major conferences, and
> publishing in peer reviewed journals. In this at least,
> success seems imminent: Miley says his cold fusion paper
> is the first to be accepted to the Journal of Fusion Energy,
> which normally covers 'hot' thermonuclear fusion or
> sonofusion (which uses pulses of sound to rapidly compress
> bubbles in liquids). Meanwhile, Scott Chubb, who chaired a
> cold fusion session at an APS meeting in March, feels that
> Physical Review Letters, one of the top physics journals,
> may finally start accepting papers in the field. Avowed
> critics of cold fusion don't see anything to shout about,
> though. Frank Close, of the University of Oxford, UK, says
> he sees no renewed interest, 'just the usual suspects
> recycling'. Indeed, Fleischmann's ACS report is a
> re-presentation of research from the 1990s, showing that
> his calorimetry measurements were accurate. Bob Park, at
> the University of Maryland, US, agrees, but concedes that
> 'there are some curious reports - not cold fusion, but
> people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear
> reactions'.

Park apparently states, "...not cold fusion" but then adds "...people may b= e seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions."

Which is it?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_9ed771f93f6606c10c3e3d75d165106f-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:23:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MIMtWH012123; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:22:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MIMrGD012092; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:22:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:22:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=yPnGgNCMUJKD2YuzOte2EeYDFvzLShTTIWqJETgYu6C+Myn0rs/8YNQGlUMA/8yRdeLqTpPh0Hm5ONUoZ48aRlTOPa37mgd7izaL131DiN9ynFg30qbSHq7KeMN0kMtP2d1pG/Pn9xO4cNbY6++KMAS8mp5TqjsoahLdmyVvcn8= ; X-YMail-OSG: WcDmUmgVM1lBvi2HzFWJHgWfytJlt6SZhSAHTBBAh.sntpEyvlX2V9m6oy8GvKyjojBvupq_PmhG36ySTp9wdMvBGQX7J30ZIXQxMelYMlntlpfQSWQgRzmdivJM15rSD4FkNcJ_G1Ed7ss- Message-ID: <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:22:48 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-yV2KB.A.v8C.9lsAGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73966 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I vote scam. The claim is preposterous, and the supposed output is off > by a factor of 7 or more. ...more like 70 than 7. Let's say they were electrolyzing 5 gallons "per hour," instead of "per minute" - (this info has been passed around the web enough for typos to be repeated) that is still plenty of gas to power an ICE if much of it was short lived chemical intermediaries, or even some kind of stable capacitance - instead of steam. The transit time from reactor to cylinder is in milliseconds, so even if the capacitance is not stable for much longer - it could somehow be effective. Still there is no indication of anything in independent testing. I was reluctant to post this at all, as I read about it several weeks ago, when it was first put on eBay - and thought it definitely a scam then - but hey - a money back guarantee is something that an adventuresome person (modern-day Feynman) will surely risk - if only to prove them wrong. BTW - in looking deeper at the racing company - there have been complaints about their regular products to the racing market - which are unresolved. Which makes me even more sure that this is a scam... (but always hopeful of being proved wrong). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:26:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MIQZcZ014359; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:26:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MIQYhv014340; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:26:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:26:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <17db01c76caf$a044ab80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20070322181514.B038DBFB69@mail1.mx.core.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:26:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <2VUP_.A.8fD.apsAGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73967 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: A suprising comment from. Dr. Park: Status: RO X-Status: He probably means nuclear, but not fusion. Bob Park now believes in LENR = it seems :) Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:10 PM Subject: [Vo]: A suprising comment from. Dr. Park: > SUBJECT: A suprising comment from. Dr. Park: >=20 > See the following article from Chemistry World: >=20 > http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/March/22030701.asp > http://tinyurl.com/26q8ag >=20 > ... >=20 >> Acceptance by the scientific community is still the main >> target for cold fusion advocates - hence the importance >> of replication, appearing at major conferences, and >> publishing in peer reviewed journals. In this at least, >> success seems imminent: Miley says his cold fusion paper >> is the first to be accepted to the Journal of Fusion Energy, >> which normally covers 'hot' thermonuclear fusion or >> sonofusion (which uses pulses of sound to rapidly compress >> bubbles in liquids). Meanwhile, Scott Chubb, who chaired a >> cold fusion session at an APS meeting in March, feels that >> Physical Review Letters, one of the top physics journals, >> may finally start accepting papers in the field. Avowed >> critics of cold fusion don't see anything to shout about, >> though. Frank Close, of the University of Oxford, UK, says >> he sees no renewed interest, 'just the usual suspects >> recycling'. Indeed, Fleischmann's ACS report is a=20 >> re-presentation of research from the 1990s, showing that >> his calorimetry measurements were accurate. Bob Park, at >> the University of Maryland, US, agrees, but concedes that >> 'there are some curious reports - not cold fusion, but >> people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear >> reactions'.=20 >=20 > Park apparently states, "...not cold fusion" but then adds "...people = may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions." >=20 > Which is it? >=20 > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:26:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MIQpCO014517; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:26:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MIQnoE014486; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:26:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:26:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322142139.08902c20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:26:36 -0400 To: svj@orionworks.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: A suprising comment from. Dr. Park: In-Reply-To: <20070322181514.B038DBFB69@mail1.mx.core.com> References: <20070322181514.B038DBFB69@mail1.mx.core.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73968 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >Park apparently states, "...not cold fusion" but then adds >"...people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions." > >Which is it? It is a distinction without a difference. Takahashi wrote a similar remark in the introduction to the printed ICCF12 proceedings: "Condensed matter of nuclear science (CMNS) was born as a descendent research field of cold fusion." It is not "descendent"; it is the same thing. He is just trying to disassociate himself from "cold fusion" by changing the name and pretending it was reborn. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:40:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MIdtSw020033; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:39:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MIdrst020013; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:39:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:39:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322143633.036e1d20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:39:47 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? In-Reply-To: <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73969 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >...more like 70 than 7. > >Let's say they were electrolyzing 5 gallons "per hour," instead of >"per minute" - (this info has been passed around the web enough for >typos to be repeated) that is still plenty of gas to power an ICE if >much of it was short lived chemical intermediaries, or even some >kind of stable capacitance - instead of steam. I suppose 5 gallons per hour would be right on the money for a race car. That would make sense. As you say, it is off by a factor of 70 -- or 60, as in 60 minutes. >I was reluctant to post this at all . . . Heck, why? It is on topic. Thanks for sharing it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 12:08:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MJ88IW028678; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:08:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MJ820d028619; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:08:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:08:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail0.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:07:56 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: A suprising comment from. Dr. Park: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_0f5f561555f3ca70f0580cce92b339c3" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070322190756.EF648AA601@mail0.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73970 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_0f5f561555f3ca70f0580cce92b339c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This does seem to confirm the shrewd and strategic value of pursuing a name/terminology facelift: "Low Energy Nuclear Reactions" - LENR. If changing the original name (CF) to a different name so that a few ardent skeptics can convince themselves that this is, golly gee wiz, somptin-new, we otta take a closer look at this stuff, well HEY, I'm all for it! Eventually, the historians will get around to filling in all the interesting fiddletebits that lead to the facelift. I'm sure Jed and a few others will see to that. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > >Park apparently states, "...not cold fusion" but then adds > >"...people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions." > > > >Which is it? > > It is a distinction without a difference. Takahashi wrote a similar > remark in the introduction to the printed ICCF12 proceedings: > > "Condensed matter of nuclear science (CMNS) was born as a descendent > research field of cold fusion." > > It is not "descendent"; it is the same thing. He is just trying to > disassociate himself from "cold fusion" by changing the name and > pretending it was reborn. > > - Jed > > --=_0f5f561555f3ca70f0580cce92b339c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This does seem to confirm the shrewd and strategic value of pursuing a name= /terminology facelift: "Low Energy Nuclear Reactions" - LENR.

If changing the original name (CF) to a different name so that a few ardent= skeptics can convince themselves that this is, golly gee wiz, somptin-new,= we otta take a closer look at this stuff, well HEY, I'm all for it!

Eventually, the historians will get around to filling in all the interestin= g fiddletebits that lead to the facelift.

I'm sure Jed and a few others will see to that.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


>
> Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
>
> >Park apparently states, "...not cold fusion" but then adds
> >"...people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions."<= br /> > >
> >Which is it?
>
> It is a distinction without a difference. Takahashi wrote a similar
> remark in the introduction to the printed ICCF12 proceedings:
>
> "Condensed matter of nuclear science (CMNS) was born as a descendent
> research field of cold fusion."
>
> It is not "descendent"; it is the same thing. He is just trying to
> disassociate himself from "cold fusion" by changing the name and
> pretending it was reborn.
>
> - Jed
>
>
--=_0f5f561555f3ca70f0580cce92b339c3-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 12:44:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MJhuBE020926; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:43:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MJhsqT020902; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:43:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:43:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070322124647.0277d268@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:47:01 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322113937.037431c8@mindspring.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20070321195022.027df198@mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20070321195022.027df198@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73971 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:46 AM 3/22/2007 -0400, you wrote: >Steven Krivit wrote: > >>Three ways to do it. You can insert them into the stream with a mixer >>during production and some extra cabling, pan the camera back and forth >>from speaker to screen, or with an overlay in post-production. > >The video production guy in Atlanta recommends the following method: Thanks Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 13:27:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MKQkNR015799; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:26:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MKQiA5015773; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:26:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:26:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:26:27 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-AuE0C.A.N2D.DauAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73972 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This search string lists all of New Energy Institute videos: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22new+energy+institute%22&hl=en - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 13:33:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MKXa8T010083; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:33:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MKXYje010067; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:33:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:33:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322163143.0377a008@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:33:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73973 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Excess heat from a Pd cylinder Status: O X-Status: I believe I have heard of several cases in which=20 a cylinder produced significant excess heat. Here=20 is the latest. Unfortunately, Zhang et al. tell=20 me they have not yet written a paper, but here is the Abstract: 9:36AM A31.00009 Heat Produced During Electrolysis with a Tubular Pd= Cathode, WU-SHOU ZHANG, JOHN DASH, QIONGSHU WANG, Low=20 Energy Nuclear Laboratory, Portland State=20 University, Portland, OR 97207-0751 =AD An=20 explosion occurred during electrolysis of heavy=20 water with a tubular Pd cathode1 A Pd tube from=20 the same batch was used as the cathode during=20 electrolysis in a Seebeck envelope calorimeter=20 which is capable of accurate heat measurements.=20 Data was obtained first from a three cm length of=20 the tube on one end, and then from a three cm=20 length on the opposite end. There were no=20 explosions, but both ends of the tube produced=20 continuous excess thermal power (356 mW +/- 11 mW=20 maximum). In addition there were 39 heat bursts=20 (1.1 W maximum) from the first end during 201=20 hours of electrolysis and 58 heat bursts (1 W=20 maximum) during 443 hours of electrolysis from=20 the opposite end of the tube. The period of the=20 heat bursts ranged from a few minutes to 3.3=20 hours. Data on the topography and microchemical=20 composition of the tube surface before and after=20 electrolysis will also be presented. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 14:00:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ML0h4s025946; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:00:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ML0fNV025927; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:00:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:00:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=fqf6UxJMLHdb8tuVKLVlTfTsJRhmNBHPh2Xp76LVAQSSbbPgZnDloBkROznL2hLh; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <24996769.1174597238086.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:00:37 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8dab1d437e25fa595b83cf866948844a5189477d7828d6397350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.33 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73974 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 16, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Mar 19, 2007 5:22 AM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 16, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 16 Mar 07 Washington, DC 1. APOPHIS 2036: NASA SAYS IT HAS MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO. In 1998 Congress mandated a NASA Spaceguard Survey to discover, track and catalog the 20,000 or so near-earth asteroids and comets. NASA is behind schedule. Asteroids usually show up around budget time. The latest is named Apophis, which is headed our way in 2036. WN has a call in to Bruce Willis to see if he will be available in 2036. Apophis is nothing like the asteroid that spelled curtains for the dinosaurs 65 million years ago, nor does it have much chance of hitting Earth, but you play the cards you're dealt. This morning's New York Times has an op-ed by Apollo astronaut Russell Schweickart calling for public hearings to "shame" NASA into action. This looks like the old "Washington Monument ploy," in which the Park Service threatens to close the most popular visitor site because of budget problems. 2. NASA BUDGET: NO ROOM FOR THE ALPHA MAGNETIC SPECTROMETER. Yesterday, Bart Gordon (D-TN), chair of the House S&T Committee, noted that the budget reality bears little resemblance to the "rosy projections" offered by the Administration when the President announced his "Vision for Space Exploration" three years ago. Don't scrap the vision - kill the science. One casualty is the $1.5 billion Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer that was scheduled to go to the ISS on a 2008 shuttle flight. Griffin now says there's no room for the AMS on the shuttle because every flight is crammed with hardware to finish the ISS. It wouldn't do to drop an unfinished ISS into the ocean. The AMS was designed to search for antimatter. Nobel prize winner Sam Ting of MIT, made the case for AMS personally to Dan Goldin. It was cited repeatedly by NASA to show that the ISS would do basic science http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN98/wn061298.html . 3. MARS ICE CAPS: EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY MEASURES WATER AT POLES. An instrument called the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding (MARSIS) on board the Mars Express has measured the water trapped in layers covering the south polar region. The icy layers cover an area bigger than Texas, and in places as deep as 3.7 km. That is enough water to cover the entire planet with a layer 11 meters deep. They are now mapping the layers around the north pole of the arid planet. 4. EARTH'S ICE CAPS: ANTARCTIC ICE IS SLIPPING INTO THE OCEAN. And they don't know why. In Greenland the loss of ice is caused by melting, but that doesn't explain the rapid movement of ice into the ocean from the frigid West Antarctic ice sheet, even as the East Antarctic ice sheet is growing. The net loss is huge, raising sea levels. A special issue on Polar Science in today's Science magazine, notes that good measurements of the thickness of the ice sheet have only been made in the past ten years, so it is not yet possible to tell if this is a natural cycle. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 15:37:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MMbCt3015874; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:37:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MMbA6F015853; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:37:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:37:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004701c76cd2$9966c690$94c8163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:36:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <4QXIZB.A.o3D.WUwAGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73975 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? > 5 gallons = 19 liters; 19 kg. The heat of vaporization of water is 540 > cal/g, so they are claiming at least 42 MJ/min energy production. That is > the least amount; actually there would be much more, if a substantial > fraction of the water is converted to free H2 and O2. Let's say it is 84 > MJ/min. That's equivalent to 2 kg of gasoline a minute, or 1.4 MW. The > biggest racing car engines are about 200 kW. 1.4 MW is enough for large > railroad locomotive or WWII era fighter aircraft. If you put that much > energy into something the size of an automobile engine, it would melt. Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454ci big block, 490hp = 365,540 watts. People routinely put blowers and such on these motors, port and polish the heads, etc., 1khp is not unreasonable. Then you are up to 0.75 megawatt. Of course, it gets hot, so you have to have a bloody good cooling system. A time honored trick that helps a lot is to remove the thermostat and let the coolant free-flow. Add an extra belt-driven or electric powered coolant pump, an oversized radiator, and you're good to go. Gives off so much CO2 that polar bears spontaneously combust from the added warming. ;) Point is, 200kW is by no means the biggest engine used for racing or otherwise in automobiles. Is it the biggest you'll probably ever NEED? Probably, and then some. As far as the claims of the whatsit racing company, I have a hard time believing it. 5 gallons of water per minute? Even if you could do this, to burn that much hydrogen in an engine per minute would be insane. If the cylinder head is aluminum, like most these days....Bad Juju. --Kyle, Vo's evil mechanic From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 16:12:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2MNCPYr018958; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:12:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2MNCNak018940; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:12:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:12:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GbiZ5BpgClcUi4guj3ldhfIUth0iBXkJpIzZncxq6ZdmBuYukEcW4MMllQBepBbYJc04SygzE1oATm1W2ZzpUciOqJgckVnFwWaT7fPIevqqhi0iQbJBuM67BKrEUZN0r/QxlDG/jxM9ayV6mRK/DBz0K41b7CvJeSHO9tpC15I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JoJEyVgTZGC6vtgb5uTwMynVqRD5CiOtIxOdroC3AC4i2MxrH4LobeoiO4Fob2CEmDEr5ykgxXDUG8DmYoItVXzqXCKKIeT+maN9b3iN1BD+Jy6NsWZoO5Dx06iNcnFgwxq8w596g2ZkvZWjouSbCppwt0QUM20xF30IHuNzm7U= Message-ID: <46031B68.8060107@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:12:24 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> <004701c76cd2$9966c690$94c8163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <004701c76cd2$9966c690$94c8163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73976 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Then you are up to 0.75 megawatt. > Of course, it gets hot, so you have to have a bloody good cooling > system. A time honored trick that helps a lot is to remove the > thermostat and let the coolant free-flow. Add an extra belt-driven or > electric powered coolant pump, an oversized radiator, and you're good to go. So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air. It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3 KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts! Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 18:31:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2N1VDPE030199; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:31:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2N1VBhQ030176; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:31:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:31:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "DonW" To: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:31:07 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73977 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference Status: O X-Status: http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/March/22030701.asp Cold fusion back on the menu 22 March 2007 Most chemists would rather forget all about cold fusion. After the = barrage of criticism dismissing Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann's = sensational 1989 claims that nuclei could be forced to fuse and release excess = energy at room temperature, only a small core of researchers has kept the idea = from fading away entirely.=A0 Yet=A0preparations are under way for an invited symposium focusing on = cold fusion and low-energy nuclear reactions at the American chemical = society's (ACS) 2007 conference in=A0Chicago next week. Isolated presentations = have been scattered around ACS meetings before, and the American physical society (APS) groups together a number of cold fusion researchers every year, = but the last comparable session was 'so far off I can't remember', according = to cold fusion advocate George Miley, of the University of Illinois, US. = Even Fleischmann himself has a paper at the ACS, though the eighty-year old chemist will not be attending.=A0 =A0 'I feel there is a strong rebirth of interest in cold fusion,' said = Miley. He and other cold fusion supporters are taking their ACS presence as one more indication of the subject's growing respectability. Organiser Jan Marwan said he was very surprised at how easy it was to gain acceptance = for the symposium. But Gopal Coimbatore, program chair of the ACS's division = of environmental chemistry, felt that unless a forum was provided, the = subject might never get discussed; and 'with the world facing an energy crisis, = it is worth exploring all possibilities'.=A0=20 The chances of cold fusion meeting that crisis may seem remote, but enthusiasts point to recent research from the=A0US navy's Space and = naval warfare systems center (Spawar) in=A0San Diego,=A0California. Here, = Stanislaw Szpak and Pamela Mosier-Boss have claimed a ream of evidence for nuclear reactions occurring in a system similar to the 1989 reports.=A0 Pons and Fleischmann suggested that electrolysis could pack deuterium = nuclei into a palladium lattice so tightly that they were fusing together; = Szpak and Boss now claim to have speeded up this process by co-depositing palladium and deuterium onto a thin wire subjected to an electric field. They have used plastic=A0films - so-called CR-39 detectors - to track = charged particles emerging from their reactions, publishing most recently in=A0Naturwissenschaften. And, unlike the original 1989 experiments, the researchers claim their results are easily reproducible, with other = groups reportedly detecting products of nuclear reactions such as alpha = particles and gamma rays.=A0 =A0 Acceptance by the scientific community is still the main target for cold fusion advocates - hence the importance of replication, appearing at = major conferences, and publishing in peer reviewed journals. In this at least, success seems imminent: Miley says his cold fusion paper is the first to = be accepted to the=A0Journal of Fusion Energy, which normally covers 'hot' thermonuclear fusion or sonofusion (which uses pulses of sound to = rapidly compress bubbles in liquids). Meanwhile, Scott Chubb, who chaired a cold fusion session at an APS meeting in March, feels that=A0Physical Review Letters, one of the top physics journals, may finally start accepting = papers in the field. Avowed critics of cold fusion don't see anything to shout about, though. Frank Close, of the University of Oxford, UK, says he = sees no renewed interest, 'just the usual suspects recycling'. Indeed, = Fleischmann's ACS report is a re-presentation of research from the 1990s, showing that = his calorimetry measurements were accurate. Bob Park, at the=A0University of=A0Maryland, US, agrees, but concedes that 'there are some curious = reports - not cold fusion, but people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy = nuclear reactions'.=A0 But will the flare-up of cold fusion excitement last? Chubb is sure of = it, but Fleischmann himself is less bullish. He approves of the Spawar = research, but, as he told=A0Chemistry World, 'my optimism is tempered by realism'. = And Close's opinion is clear: 'Let's not confuse noise with signal'. =A0 =A0 Richard Van Noorden From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 19:32:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2N2W9Vd032426; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:32:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2N2W84l032404; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:32:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:32:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tcKMg6mTR0psUs7nwttxzzpufGBYKgAsz4Wsr/9D+FnK5vlHsl994THOq0MdXH3IafkD1VjnFhP4k7ylMrRbYJEsnTEWG0/5N4+WctNHeiaxWsx9Jh6MXyp23/YgiXaRzV5ePb4fk/Mf/kGtmtKYTMSmWWqtmORlJitCZC3Z3CU= ; X-YMail-OSG: H.r5dysVM1mMZ.Fz8zq6at2Jnwaky.Dvzh5Rbr8BfnKM7BPKT_2tj5DI25hJtY2cMsmkNc2CdmU6uogpXn.hMt7ET6PDa.06Iwp4sAIUMbtdSn39JMV_CGWive11ioNpi0g55znxMiOZKSg- Message-ID: <46033C22.2090900@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 19:32:02 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73978 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Scam or no? Status: O X-Status: > Let's say they were electrolyzing 5 gallons "per hour," instead of "per > minute" - The transit time from reactor to cylinder is in milliseconds, so even if > the capacitance is not stable for much longer - it could somehow be > effective. What I was referring to in that somewhat cryptic reference is the hypothesis that water-splitting may NOT be occurring per se. Technically this situation may NOT be electrolysis at all, in the sense of water being split into H2 and O2. Instead the power source would be the "exploding water capacitor." This has been mentioned here several times as an alternative hypothesis for certain water fuel claims - like that of Stanley Meyer (if that were to be trusted), and it does not rule out other "new physics" contributions to the anomalous energy (hydrino etc). It does rule out steam, as opposed to water mist, since steam has too low a dielectric constant (~1, as opposed to 80 for pure water). If this kind of water-capacitor were to be "exploded" - to use the direct analogy to an exploding electrolytic capacitor then the question arises as to how much energy is available from this, compared with gasoline combustion. We can assume that the capacitance is unbalanced and the the charge carrier is positive - since only a positive charge is available from an auto alternator (negative is ground). This means that the charge must be "shielded" and we know that water, even as a mist favors a hexagonal structure - which can be a natural shield. If six water molecules were used to shield an electron "hole," then that compound ion has a molecular weight of 6x18 = 106 and if this ion were to collapse in a capacitor-like situation - it would probably attract the needed electron from the ubiquitous Dirac epo-field (electron-postitron pairs) which is the QM "virtual foam" and a proven resource in quantum mechanics. At that point the energy available might not be the full annihilation energy, but instead the electron-positron ionization potential, or 6.8 eV per 106 a.m.u. Doesn't sound like enough. Gasoline combustion resulting in CO2 gives more apparent energy per amu - ostensibly - until you realize that for every Oxygen molecule which is used, there must be 4 nitrogen molecules (since that is the ratio of air), ergo the net energy of gasoline, burned in air is actually less per net amu (atomic mass unit) of the exhaust constituents (arguably) then is the exploding water-fuel capacitor, in this grossly oversimplified comparison. This methodology assumes that this "natural" fuel, which is little more then ionized water mist, is the conduit for coherence of electron-positron pairs in much higher QM probability than normal. It is still troubling that this has situation not been seen by mainstream science before now - if it has any validity - and that such a very high COP could have gone undetected for so long... ...unless, of course, the tropical hurricane and other electrical storms provides some of that evidence and hidden proof -- from mother-nature herself. Jones BTW - the last paragraph from this blog - or all of it really, is where Zigouras got the idea - basically it is an improvement of SA Meyer: http://blog.waterforfuel.com/search.aspx?q=Zigouras From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 22:40:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2N5em9h017009; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:40:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2N5ekdk016979; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:40:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:40:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070322224316.02768f20@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:43:55 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73979 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Happy 18th Birthday Cold Fusion! Status: O X-Status: s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 23:40:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2N6eYiE032513; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:40:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2N6eXqX032506; Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:40:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:40:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46037649.5060900@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:40:09 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage References: <001e01c76c6f$2e4015f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001e01c76c6f$2e4015f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73980 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: > Has anybody here seen the NOVA Megaflood program? > Yes I have > > There is some interesting water vortex footage in here that will > inspire a lot of interesting experiments. If you know what to look > for, you can see how this ties to Keely, Schauberger, the Windhex > machine, and numerous other implosion technologies. > Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I'm wondering why those vortexes bend down and tore up the pot holes. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 03:52:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NAqgef029499; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 03:52:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NAqepE029477; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 03:52:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 03:52:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MrawFubzWriMRq176GpTayG6eklpqxIHMN9fGef2TPjdaTSB0y+2sOOuc3tcezNoTulv22N/UZWE3qDZfGWAQhqYfFc0QWzSZQ2/LjW6FBK2nHZRZiYL5Gs5JavMrHa2Ajqy7SptGUXWp8AjtLcZitzlqUFMae2kZpAc+ZtPEos= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PDfheiR21dhv2W6MG5Hy1tVUaa8iMs0gE1GKXhxrain1u+eEQWDwqL1hxX7dgPv6SNpcuxS5CToAySwVjE9d1aVMo0bwOqdvxCJjWWqTzMRH5pC5R02Mrgz6XYqhzgPdKtDIE2nvmVPCxU53PABwdPbXgWw5B87a+qO46GFXBxw= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:52:38 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Scam or no? In-Reply-To: <46033C22.2090900@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> <46033C22.2090900@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73981 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/22/07, Jones Beene wrote: > We can assume that the capacitance is unbalanced and the the charge > carrier is positive - since only a positive charge is available from an > auto alternator (negative is ground). Huh? Automobiles are not earthed. Could you expand on this a bit? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 04:21:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NBLMaH011540; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:21:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NBLGpI011498; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:21:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:21:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:20:53 -0600 Message-ID: <004001c76d3d$58f0d7c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <46037649.5060900@usfamily.net> Thread-Index: AcdtFnc0tCRTJPj6SseDVUv8YCAchQAJrWsg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73982 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: UFO records released in France Status: O X-Status: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032202 132.html I wonder if we'll get any useful advanced technology clues from the French UFO files? Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 04:35:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NBZONW017232; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:35:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NBZMdw017206; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:35:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:35:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Water vortex footage Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:35:00 -0600 Message-ID: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <46037649.5060900@usfamily.net> Thread-Index: AcdtFnc0tCRTJPj6SseDVUv8YCAchQAJudoA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73983 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, > Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I'm wondering why those vortexes bend down and tore up the pot holes. That is not hard to imagine when considering the huge volume of water that was moving over the ground. I have seen similar features on a smaller scale at Shelburne Falls, Massachusetts. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=bridge+of+flowers+shelburne+falls+ma ssachusetts&layer=&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&z=18&ll=42.602248,-72.73829&spn=0.001714 ,0.003616 I have always wondered how these features were made. Just watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for building more water vortex generators. I was particularly impressed with the implosion of the tiny bubbles, which caused a water hammer effect. It amazes me that air bubbles can be both suddenly created and suddenly collapsed like that. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 06:20:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NDKSPQ011501; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:20:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NDKLtr011443; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:20:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:20:19 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_086fd7c45d60187f76b8630856bc7b70" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070323132516.04C60BFA05@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73984 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_086fd7c45d60187f76b8630856bc7b70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no? Paul sez: > So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air. > It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given > sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling > competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is > no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3 > KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts! > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance Ya gotta just love those spell checkers. I never new "trackers" could pull so much wait. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_086fd7c45d60187f76b8630856bc7b70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no?

Paul sez:

> So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air.
> It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given
> sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling
> competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is
> no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3
> KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts!
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance

Ya gotta just love those spell checkers.

I never new "trackers" could pull so much wait.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_086fd7c45d60187f76b8630856bc7b70-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 08:45:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NFjLZX023860; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:45:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NFjE2w023770; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:45:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:45:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:07:04 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: UFO records released in France Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_2801c3495237214b7dcf4efaf204cd59" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070323141201.CBF97BFCB8@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: <4NC6NB.A.OzF.IY_AGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73985 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=_2801c3495237214b7dcf4efaf204cd59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave sez: > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032202132.html > > I wonder if we'll get any useful advanced technology > clues from the French UFO files? > > Dave > FWIW, probably not. It may spark a few comments here and there concerning the interesting fact that encounters of the extraordinary keep happening on our planet, but then... so what. One can expect that whatever is released to the public will be pretty well sanitized for your reading pleasure. Consider this recent news flash: Fife Symington the former Republican governor of Arizona has recently publicly admitted to the world that he pretty well convinced himself that the so-called "Phoenix lights", the sensational news incident that tens and thousands witnessed over the Phoenix skies around ten years ago, were not from this world. He even admits to participating in an attempt to diffuse the situation at a news conference he conducted where he paraded out a man in an alien suit to help turn the incident into a joke. Check out cnn.com for more info on this subject. There's video as well. People will continue to believe what they want to believe about the subject. Everything from: "Space Brothers have come to save us" to "The Spawn of Satan's loins have come to serve us up" will continue to flourish unabated - especially in the book stores where there is a buck to be made. As long as these incidents continue to remain, for the most part, eye witnesses accounts, there are plenty of ways to rationalize away the phenomenon, one-incident-at-a-time. The vast majority on this planet would prefer to keep the status quo as -is. There's goes the neighborhood. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_2801c3495237214b7dcf4efaf204cd59 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave sez:

>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032= 202132.html
>
> I wonder if we'll get any useful advanced technology
> clues from the French UFO files?
>
> Dave
>

FWIW, probably not. It may spark a few comments here and there concerning t= he interesting fact that encounters of the extraordinary keep happening on = our planet, but then... so what. One can expect that whatever is released t= o the public will be pretty well sanitized for your reading pleasure.

Consider this recent news flash: Fife Symington the former Republican gover= nor of Arizona has recently publicly admitted to the world that he pretty w= ell convinced himself that the so-called "Phoenix lights", the sensational = news incident that tens and thousands witnessed over the Phoenix skies arou= nd ten years ago, were not from this world. He even admits to participating= in an attempt to diffuse the situation at a news conference he conducted w= here he paraded out a man in an alien suit to help turn the incident into a= joke. Check out cnn.com for more info on this subject. There's video as we= ll.

People will continue to believe what they want to believe about the subject= . Everything from: "Space Brothers have come to save us" to "The Spawn of S= atan's loins have come to serve us up" will continue to flourish unabated -= especially in the book stores where there is a buck to be made.

As long as these incidents continue to remain, for the most part, eye witne= sses accounts, there are plenty of ways to rationalize away the phenomenon,= one-incident-at-a-time. The vast majority on this planet would prefer to k= eep the status quo as -is.

There's goes the neighborhood.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


--=_2801c3495237214b7dcf4efaf204cd59-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 08:50:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NFoFdG017632; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:50:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NFmRb6014298; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:48:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:48:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:46:06 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Excess heat from a Pd cylinder In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322163143.0377a008@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200703231046.06728.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322163143.0377a008@mindspring.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73986 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 22 March 2007 15:33, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I believe I have heard of several cases in which > a cylinder produced significant excess heat. Here > is the latest. Unfortunately, Zhang et al. tell > me they have not yet written a paper, but here is the Abstract: > > 9:36AM A31.00009 Heat Produced During Electrolysis with a Tubular Pd > Cathode, > > WU-SHOU ZHANG, JOHN DASH, QIONGSHU WANG, Low > Energy Nuclear Laboratory, Portland State > University, Portland, OR 97207-0751 =AD An > explosion occurred during electrolysis of heavy > water with a tubular Pd cathode1 A Pd tube from > the same batch was used as the cathode during > electrolysis in a Seebeck envelope calorimeter > which is capable of accurate heat measurements. > Data was obtained first from a three cm length of > the tube on one end, and then from a three cm > length on the opposite end. There were no > explosions, but both ends of the tube produced > continuous excess thermal power (356 mW +/- 11 mW > maximum). In addition there were 39 heat bursts > (1.1 W maximum) from the first end during 201 > hours of electrolysis and 58 heat bursts (1 W > maximum) during 443 hours of electrolysis from > the opposite end of the tube. The period of the > heat bursts ranged from a few minutes to 3.3 > hours. Data on the topography and microchemical > composition of the tube surface before and after > electrolysis will also be presented. > > > - Jed Jed, it is like nobody saw or read this! Is'nt anybody going to answer this post? The guy is claiming a watt from three centimeters of wire for cryin our loud. If true this is really good news. Instead folks are=20 seemingly more interested in some 'scam'. The word 'reproducibility' has cropped up here as well, and that makes it more interesting. If Gene=20 were around, he surely would be interested. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 08:51:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NFoFdI017632; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:50:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NFmqff014966; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:48:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:48:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:59:29 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: UFO records released in France Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_3113cad3022943fb737ceabe6303a5b0" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070323140106.348C73FA27F@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: <1ZiNmB.A.ZpD.fb_AGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73987 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_3113cad3022943fb737ceabe6303a5b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave sez: > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032202132.html > > I wonder if we'll get any useful advanced technology > clues from the French UFO files? > > Dave > FWIW, probably not. It may spark a few comments here and there concerning the interesting fact that encounters of the extraordinary keep happening on our planet, but then... so what. Consider this recent news flash: Fife Symington the former Republican governor of Arizona has recently publicly admitted to the world that he pretty well convinced himself that the so-called "Phoenix lights", the sensational news incident that tens and thousands witnessed over the Phoenix skies around ten years ago, were not from this world. He even admits to participating in an attempt to diffuse the situation at a news conference he conducted where he paraded out a man in an alien suit to help turn the incident into a joke. Check out cnn.com for more info on this subject. There's video as well. People will continue to believe what they want to believe about the subject. Everything from: "Space Brothers have come to save us" to "The Spawn of Satan's Loins have come to serve us up" will flourish unabated - especially in the book stores where there is a buck to be made. As long as these incidents continue to remain, for the most part, eye witnesses accounts, there are plenty of ways to rationalize away the phenomenon, one-incident-at-a-time. The vast majority on this planet would prefer to keep the status quo as-is. There's goes the neighborhood. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_3113cad3022943fb737ceabe6303a5b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave sez:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032= 202132.html
>
> I wonder if we'll get any useful advanced technology
> clues from the French UFO files?
>
> Dave
>

FWIW, probably not. It may spark a few comments here and there concerning t= he interesting fact that encounters of the extraordinary keep happening on = our planet, but then... so what.

Consider this recent news flash: Fife Symington the former Republican gover= nor of Arizona has recently publicly admitted to the world that he pretty w= ell convinced himself that the so-called "Phoenix lights", the sensational = news incident that tens and thousands witnessed over the Phoenix skies arou= nd ten years ago, were not from this world. He even admits to participating= in an attempt to diffuse the situation at a news conference he conducted w= here he paraded out a man in an alien suit to help turn the incident into a= joke. Check out cnn.com for more info on this subject. There's video as we= ll.

People will continue to believe what they want to believe about the subject= . Everything from: "Space Brothers have come to save us" to "The Spawn of S= atan's Loins have come to serve us up" will flourish unabated - especially = in the book stores where there is a buck to be made.

As long as these incidents continue to remain, for the most part, eye witne= sses accounts, there are plenty of ways to rationalize away the phenomenon,= one-incident-at-a-time. The vast majority on this planet would prefer to k= eep the status quo as-is.

There's goes the neighborhood.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_3113cad3022943fb737ceabe6303a5b0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 09:10:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NGA28D008036; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:10:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NG2Hnq003242; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:02:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:02:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hq3wuyez40ezeYkAE0/SFVJKCuzGiKusxPo3ArXhX9pHj8rgQSP1wH+jVto41ySFv1Fg8ZEjA1yU787lEz5fo8GReVOPVdxya5IpJjpa28uGqqMVTpzH0FUI1RQpNih2iCjlswYFbjBL82azW1rp6xIRzXAW/xswsm0uy5N+Prg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hl4tA8QYxrGddpMVSE+97QMMDVqGcH4thcRY57xsUqCLnGjdaC4+/wwKVCfE0Iah3+NmAD9R8ewKDXKPDYkNxISaQhmjEqAMql7HMgSEypCY3FidtgufMSpkJYT3xjhCTZ/EUMHF4K9+MfQRNkFYBCmQ++NDwLUG7bq10fkmaJk= Message-ID: <4604081A.90403@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:02:18 -0800 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? References: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73988 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no? > > Paul sez: > >> So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air. >> It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given >> sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling >> competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is >> no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3 >> KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts! >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance > > Ya gotta just love those spell checkers. > > I never new "trackers" could pull so much wait. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson You're a riot. Give me a break. I spent an entire 10 hours yesterday replying to emails. My eyes felt like they were generating 10 megawatts of nuclear fission. Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 09:10:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NGA2v1009483; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:10:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NG9xtT009433; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:09:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:09:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sX95+HWF3PR+F5Fp1f06KT8f/6gcriqao+JTBV/NKBZYdl5Nq2tuRdShYFFiZPI4IVvcpbdtbhz8sM+bwe7PkBCpFHQ74d1mhTb1Difsgo2fe4nf3eYozPRIzKaXM6M1bQzzXLBG1+himNAdLR9r8iUDpRWFO8d9CT3NSPRVzbc= ; X-YMail-OSG: cMc.ytcVM1nOh6I36v5_MqsZl4asfe0kounGHsJnyL13CfFSw9D1nDTrfXyHvUVvNoHl3jcvwDiLE49h63AjgsEILeSNmMYVau8u2bI31pm6MaSFnvy42Ca66xzvCEL0VuTv.71XeFmFpuFv06IfTU7Gzw-- Message-ID: <4603E22B.1070200@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 07:20:27 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> <46033C22.2090900@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73989 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Scam or no? Status: O X-Status: I didn't say "earth ground." The steel in the auto is the "chasis ground", no? Terry may be setting me up for one of Michel's 'proper English wording' lessons.... Methinks that most of the World thinks that the USA speaks "English," but that hasn't been precisely accurate for quite some time ... Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/22/07, Jones Beene wrote: > >> We can assume that the capacitance is unbalanced and the the charge >> carrier is positive - since only a positive charge is available from an >> auto alternator (negative is ground). > > Huh? Automobiles are not earthed. Could you expand on this a bit? > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 09:11:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NGAvXr008560; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:10:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NGAta5008540; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:10:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:10:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323120536.03635e78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:10:49 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Excess heat from a Pd cylinder In-Reply-To: <200703231046.06728.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322163143.0377a008@mindspring.com> <200703231046.06728.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5995906==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73990 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_5995906==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Standing Bear wrote: >Jed, it is like nobody saw or read this! Is'nt anybody going to answer >this post? The guy is claiming a watt from three centimeters of wire >for cryin our loud. Well, it is not unexpected. This is cold fusion, after all -- that's what it does. Fleischmann and Pons used to get upwards of 100 watts from a few centimeters of wire. Zhang and Dash have been very cooperative in the past so I expect they will send me a paper as soon as they write it. I will upload it and post a message here. That's what I do. I just now uploaded a new set of PowerPoint slides that describe a new paper: Hubler, G.K., Anomalous Effects in Hydrogen-Charged Palladium - A review (PowerPoint slides). Surf. Coatings Technol., 2007. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HublerGKanomalousea.pdf - Jed --=====================_5995906==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Standing Bear wrote:

Jed, it is like nobody saw or read this!  Is'nt anybody going to answer
this post?  The guy is claiming a watt from three centimeters of wire
for cryin our loud.

Well, it is not unexpected. This is cold fusion, after all -- that's what it does. Fleischmann and Pons used to get upwards of 100 watts from a few centimeters of wire.

Zhang and Dash have been very cooperative in the past so I expect they will send me a paper as soon as they write it. I will upload it and post a message here. That's what I do.

I just now uploaded a new set of PowerPoint slides that describe a new paper:

Hubler, G.K., Anomalous Effects in Hydrogen-Charged Palladium - A review (PowerPoint slides). Surf. Coatings Technol., 2007.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HublerGKanomalousea.pdf

- Jed
--=====================_5995906==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 09:22:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NGMSuo014955; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:22:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NGMRU6014934; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:22:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:22:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=H7rswpelxkOaPoyoBX0z8WQ5S5nfZ4ygoV7PI1ZRI0sR9QwN30utbYiq3xrx1kfS4RCsCi660Q43sZbC348m19ECvl+kmEfBuTkvonaZI6pJXJ49pEfdPHQb0LoivP+mPo67P+PmpCy766QiMOhya1yIzcHayACBIePeWDeb08o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=d0KtPYCKpttuygTEo+bxH9GPn/BNcBFMNW1aF3M8r6kOIifeWVcmaWOGlJv4iX/Gt4ausOz92k556+6qMJ2NXJyCHMI5Wq9DanZsHqCIWzNDvXzMc3w5upUMWEnsz5aS06UWTFcw6UkNId2CiGvLBBpDxdSR+QOxEo/exbIZa2A= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:22:24 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: UFO records released in France In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070323140106.348C73FA27F@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73991 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/23/07, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > Dave sez: > People will continue to believe what they want to believe about the subject. > Everything from: "Space Brothers have come to save us" to "The Spawn of > Satan's Loins have come to serve us up" will flourish unabated I think it's more of "Restaurant at the End of the Universe -- come watch the hairless apes destroy their world". Grab as much of their DNA while you can! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 09:24:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NGOdHh016054; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:24:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NGObdt016034; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:24:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:24:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=btFW6HOBfmabFzkTWCrn4/7QoLEq5qTEMWGmTQPJrTrkNkVFk5B7gM6fyVhytQgmWeBbF9XBulixJvOv9bU06GxwyTE4zAg5CqaoqKKYKs8P2qKXOLrxsFBkLVQ39OmUFdLdG3brqStt2tiZlO1lBM6zxNGSvucb8MkAj5IZYqw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KMyOqdyjUdBhSdHKsuB2X9wfUMcwsApgbT8YYsk24ig0OmbBJE56XmV01+raDg/uQnOQNwVrvYaQE6S6rSzHK0tF9Px8wdlqdCHprnITwwn18OHYwT5/MDol4cu28vht+pxhKq//qNxbeZlBQWgKjpCO/9dL1tI2OyNH9B7ZiTg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:24:35 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Scam or no? In-Reply-To: <4603E22B.1070200@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> <46033C22.2090900@pacbell.net> <4603E22B.1070200@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73992 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/23/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry may be setting me up for one of Michel's 'proper > English wording' lessons.... No, I just don't understand why you say the charge carrier is positive. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 09:56:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NGtJsU011578; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:55:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NGtG5Z011536; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:55:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:55:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4603E933.2060400@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:50:27 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage References: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73993 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >Hi Thomas, > > >>Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I'm >> >> >>Just watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for building more >>water vortex generators. I was particularly impressed with the implosion of >>the tiny bubbles, which caused a water hammer effect. It amazes me that air >>bubbles can be both suddenly created and suddenly collapsed like that. >> >> I've considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. They clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you have some ideas for experiments that you'd like to try? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:14:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NHEXgV026255; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:14:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NHEVY6026227; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:14:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:14:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=o+S7iyN/F98PWPUyZ8GW81bCw9OU44GHY5q2WrVupCwHBR4VA0sfy3gMJEF2ww0NWCcpJ1YYR4zNqS/rYHQLAP1MBs/QAyAp0azxF/Mr+3Cmi3XLx2RP+X5GBx+G/90YfHOECr5QlYBR0dPtzHTBPRoc+sVECC2tpyhjfQz/urs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=JiTdRZaYOp/4h+HXCU2x2D876NJqUahKQHln6WEl3jD83dQzLWEEh758JNB6L7WvMgQxfqoLv1qRxisgyy6D1UnWoklgdBYKYcvH8j6FhLXnHSukTtcKELJiRARh3YtZSiXHNhQct9Fryd0bT0+nETXHVJXEhCXHKdG0R/bR9HU= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703231014h5a5470fdg83225264c943f542@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 19:14:27 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "David Thomson" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage In-Reply-To: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_223847_14300108.1174670067291" References: <46037649.5060900@usfamily.net> <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73994 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_223847_14300108.1174670067291 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline heres a not that expensive one to build (im yet to build it tho) http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/centripete/ also i just finished scanning a picture from a book on grander+schauberger, this is the hyperbolic cone for creating a vortex. http://www.scene.org/~esa/tratti2.jpg thank you so much for dropping the waterhammer-effect hint, i definitely have to hunt this down. even a brief mention on waterhammer/cavitation would be music to my ears. again, thanks muchly, id never have heard of this had it not been for your post on vortex-list. i believe others on viktorschaubergergroup-list also benefited from this. On 23/03/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Just watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for building more > water vortex generators. I was particularly impressed with the implosion > of > the tiny bubbles, which caused a water hammer effect. It amazes me that > air > bubbles can be both suddenly created and suddenly collapsed like that. > > Dave > > ------=_Part_223847_14300108.1174670067291 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline heres a not that expensive one to build (im yet to build it tho)
http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/centripete/

also i just finished scanning a picture from a book on grander+schauberger, this is the hyperbolic cone for creating a vortex.
http://www.scene.org/~esa/tratti2.jpg

thank you so much for dropping the waterhammer-effect hint, i definitely have to hunt this down. even a brief mention on waterhammer/cavitation would be music to my ears. again, thanks muchly, id never have heard of this had it not been for your post on vortex-list. i believe others on viktorschaubergergroup-list also benefited from this.

On 23/03/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:
Just watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for building more
water vortex generators.  I was particularly impressed with the implosion of
the tiny bubbles, which caused a water hammer effect.  It amazes me that air
bubbles can be both suddenly created and suddenly collapsed like that.

Dave


------=_Part_223847_14300108.1174670067291-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:15:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NHEtuT018298; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:14:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NHErTQ018275; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:14:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:14:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Water vortex footage Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:14:27 -0600 Message-ID: <008301c76d6e$bec489d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <4603E933.2060400@usfamily.net> Thread-Index: AcdtbIgQO3j8T2zHQyOry/RI3MMscgAAeoUg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73995 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, > I've considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. They clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you have some ideas for experiments that you'd like to try? It seems that a water version of the Windhex might be useful. I was thinking of building a water version for pulverizing old circuit boards to reclaim the precious metals. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:15:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NHFSiK018557; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:15:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NHFQk6018536; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:15:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:15:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DEmk01xLzolT47zejS1sMQVmth4z6Zv+hhYLEXPSMC/OckbitOcXO4fjpLqHC4zCqYrmCOltrmQEQW7Z/b/httJz4wgpyWhbjtN1YOUzMC57URqu8G1PiaqxRqAL+/z+rT9//zbISEvPyDjHbi9XLdnCha+9wX4HM9xe+4eP5tM= ; X-YMail-OSG: oQOhuicVM1l.OuTyPdfmaj5O8rfsF0gWpOBObX6Ai65zC04UBsQ9ZOOf9Q7t7N8Wqzm98ApbWTTmtCkvezwCzU4EZJcZnInaW6I_VhLa9hXCIbyQR3QGU94OO7FOuOab3PNcqXcCtGPQTnw- Message-ID: <46040B2C.5050408@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:15:24 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <4602A9C1.7020808@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322130539.0368a178@mindspring.com> <4602C978.9020907@pacbell.net> <46033C22.2090900@pacbell.net> <4603E22B.1070200@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73996 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Scam or no? Status: RO X-Status: >> Terry may be setting me up for one of Michel's 'proper >> English wording' lessons.... > No, I just don't understand why you say the charge carrier is positive. Here is the quote from the initial posting on how the inventor describes his cell - and admittedly it does not sound like conventional EE-jargon, so perhaps we can "deconstruct" what he is trying to say: Zigouras - "The voltage applied to the cell never falls below +1 volt. As one side of the cell is connected to +13.8 volts, that means that the other side of the cell never goes above +12.8 volts. In other words, the square wave switches between zero volts and +12.8 volts 40,000 times per second." END of Zigouras quote. I was trying to tailor my comments on a working hypothesis (giving him the benefit of the doubt that he was getting 200 HP from only water) to this set of 'facts'. It is of course clear that massive positive charge imbalance in a water fog or mist would be difficult to achieve in an engine which is also chassis-grounded (unless the engine itself floats above ground - not likely). It is common knowledge among the water-fuel (JC) set that older ICE's often work better than new ones for this - and in the past, as you know, I have been vocal in saying that this could indicate that some of the energy is coming from crankcase oil which is leaking through the rings. One of the reasons I stop posting to those JC forums is hate-mail from true-believers asking - how can you know that they didn't have a new ring-job? They never claimed they did have new rings - only why would anyone assume they did not. Go figure. OTOH this factor (old engine working better than new one) could also mean that in an 10 year oldster, one with thickly oxidized (and electrically insulating) surfaces being formed over time on the manifold, piston crowns and cylinder head etc - that this helps to retain capacitance. We are only talking <14 v. here - and water mist can have a few acres per liter - of surface area - which translates into lots of capacitance. This would be especially true if there is some kind of positive charge sequestration, say in the center of a hexagonal arrangement of 6 water molecules - or even in a tetragonal grouping. Both are found in water in addition to the massive icosahedrons of Prof. Chaplin. which could easily sequester a charge. ... just thinking out loud....(and hoping that it is not a scam). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:22:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NHMbSU022316; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:22:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NHMYrX022282; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:22:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:22:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=o7bEQbydcGhrEz23pCQVDklNKlq2vezDixcuC9fr/e3NUjF4psBPnVjlWcKABkzmnhGrUODjZxAMZwiET8qLtogF93Tb7zqqlBoY4v5APo3as5Dn2vbjQEX84xq3rcy4DU0AVW9GzZ7Npses+L6nhjoLmsLlV+Qe2k5sqv2z8mI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dhjUB23n2VlhkQrxtot1gQgHWpF+9YpIeE8BLyBwvbPf3LW9GCX/1H71cfmg+UFI9ww8v6fwuK4oYRu1iFj32NOb24/GBE6QqEedwfM9WnzU0frzUaSr7u25aqX0nxxxad3toGIiTaxfK8cwJg//l/+87Lzo3PfY+ESIqf4xv+g= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703231022i39b8be50k45a6ed27ce0bb6cf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 19:22:29 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage In-Reply-To: <4603E933.2060400@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_224119_29601321.1174670549845" References: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <4603E933.2060400@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73997 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_224119_29601321.1174670549845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 23/03/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > >>Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I'm Just > watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for >>building more wat= er > vortex generators. I was particularly impressed with the implosion of th= e > tiny bubbles, which caused a water >>hammer effect. It amazes me that ai= r > bubbles can be both suddenly created and suddenly collapsed like that. > I've considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. They > clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you h= ave > some ideas for experiments that you'd like to try? > it would be amazing to find out what kind of results you get when applying = a sonic frequency to the water during the process of creating a vortex. ...if there is a way of measuring what happens to the sonic frequency the water i= s conducting, when the water is forced into a vortex. also if they could find a way of going through the Prof. P=F6pel Report and replicating those experiments using their technology to verify whether a vortical movement of water results in negative friction. (P=F6pel, Franz Rapport =F6ver prelimin=E4ra unders=F6kningar av spiralr=F6= r med olika form Institute of Ecological Technology, Sweden, 1986. (Originally publishe= d as Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelrohren mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute= of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952. Published in English in The Energy Evolution Viktor Schauberger & Callum Coats (ed.) p. 222-247, Gateway Books, Bath, 2000) Basically anything that would enhance the understanding of Water-hammer-effect and cavitation, in regards to frequency and resonance, and harmonics. i.e., is there a way of creating a hearable tone, which's harmonics are reflected/echoed inside a cavity, creating Amplitude Additive Synthesis, to get to the ultrasonic frequencies, some of which can cause disassociation/atomization of water. (Keely/Schauberger/Dale Pond) ------=_Part_224119_29601321.1174670549845 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 23/03/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
>>Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I'm= Just watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for >>buildin= g more water vortex generators.  I was particularly impressed wit= h the implosion of the tiny bubbles, which caused a water >>hammer ef= fect.  It amazes me that air bubbles can be both suddenly created= and suddenly collapsed like that.
I've considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. Th= ey clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you = have some ideas for experiments that you'd like to try?

it would be amazing to find out what kind of results you get when= applying a sonic frequency to the water during the process of creating a v= ortex. ...if there is a way of measuring what happens to the sonic frequenc= y the water is conducting, when the water is forced into a vortex.

also if they could find a way of going through the Prof. P=F6pel Re= port and replicating those experiments using their technology to verify whe= ther a vortical movement of water results in negative friction.

(P= =F6pel, Franz=20 Rapport =F6ver prelimin=E4ra unders=F6k= ningar av spiralr=F6r med olika form Institute of Ecological Technol= ogy, Sweden, 1986. (Originally published as Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelrohren mit verschnieden= er Wandform=20 International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute o= f Technology in Stuttgart, 1952. Published in English in The Energy Evolution Viktor Schauberger & Call= um Coats (ed.) p. 222-247, Gateway Books, Bath, 2000)

Basically anything that would enhance the understanding of Water-ha= mmer-effect  and cavitation, in regards to frequency and resonance, an= d harmonics. i.e., is there a way of creating a hearable tone, which's = harmonics are reflected/echoed inside a cavity, creating Amplitude Additive= Synthesis, to get to the ultrasonic frequencies, some of which can cause d= isassociation/atomization of water. (Keely/Schauberger/Dale Pond)


------=_Part_224119_29601321.1174670549845-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:47:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NHlZkj004712; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:47:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NHlYC3004692; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:47:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:47:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Water vortex footage Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:44:47 -0600 Message-ID: <009501c76d72$fbef45d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0096_01C76D40.B154D5D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703231014h5a5470fdg83225264c943f542@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: AcdtbrhYPTevxV4fS6WKXxptTlErIAAATV3Q Resent-Message-ID: <3sLsJ.A.QJB.2KBBGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73999 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C76D40.B154D5D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Esa, > heres a not that expensive one to build (im yet to build it tho) http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/centripete/ > also i just finished scanning a picture from a book on grander+schauberger, this is the hyperbolic cone for creating a vortex. http://www.scene.org/~esa/tratti2.jpg I already have a gravity feed vortex generator. It's good to see others working with this, too. I spent two straight years observing water vortices on a daily basis with this type of setup. I would be glad to discuss my observations with interested persons. What is the link to the Schauberger list? > thank you so much for dropping the waterhammer-effect hint, i definitely have to hunt this down. even a brief mention on waterhammer/cavitation would be music to my ears. again, thanks muchly, id never have heard of this had it not been for your post on vortex-list. i believe others on viktorschaubergergroup-list also benefited from this. Yes, I too was surprised about the water hammer effect being linked to the water vortex in the NOVA demonstration. There is probably only about 60 seconds of water vortex video in the show, but it was the most enlightening video I have seen so far. It also helps to understand how the Windhex is working. The Windhex is nothing more than a vortex generator using a less dense fluid. Imagine how much more powerful a dense water hammer effect would be for processing materials. If the water hammer vortex can eat through stone with no problem, it will likely also pulverize steel and other hard metals if designed right. Instead of using the gravity feed vortex, I'm thinking of getting a high pressure water pump and building a closed loop water circulation system, just as in the NOVA show. However, instead of running water passed a smooth stone, I'll build an orifice with a spiral twist in it to help the vortex along. The high pressure going through the twisted orifice will give the vortex both a high linear velocity and high angular momentum, which are needed to make a strong vortex. After seeing the imploding bubbles and getting a feel for the water hammer effect, and also having a good understanding about how Tesla's turbine motor works, I can now envision the enormous forces that would be acting upon the surface of any material caught in the vortex. There would be a ripping apart and jackhammer effect occurring simultaneously at the molecular scale. Other than ripping things apart, who knows what other uses a high-pressure vortex might have? Dave ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C76D40.B154D5D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Esa,

 

> heres a not that expensive one to build (im yet to build it tho)
http://www.scene.or= g/~esa/merlib/centripete/

> also i = just finished scanning a picture from a book on grander+schauberger, this is = the hyperbolic cone for creating a vortex.
http://www.scene.org/~esa/= tratti2.jpg

I = already have a gravity feed vortex generator.  It’s good to see others = working with this, too.  I spent two straight years observing water = vortices on a daily basis with this type of setup.  I would be glad to discuss my observations with interested persons.  What is the link to the = Schauberger list?

> thank = you so much for dropping the waterhammer-effect hint, i definitely have to hunt this = down. even a brief mention on waterhammer/cavitation would be music to my = ears. again, thanks muchly, id never have heard of this had it not been for = your post on vortex-list. i believe others on viktorschaubergergroup-list also = benefited from this.

Yes, I too was surprised about the water hammer effect being linked to the = water vortex in the NOVA demonstration.  There is probably only about 60 = seconds of water vortex video in the show, but it was the most enlightening = video I have seen so far.  It also helps to understand how the Windhex is working.  The Windhex is nothing more than a vortex generator using = a less dense fluid.  Imagine how much more powerful a dense water hammer = effect would be for processing materials.  If the water hammer vortex can = eat through stone with no problem, it will likely also pulverize steel and other = hard metals if designed right.

Instead of using the gravity feed vortex, I’m thinking of getting a high = pressure water pump and building a closed loop water circulation system, just as = in the NOVA show.  However, instead of running water passed a smooth = stone, I’ll build an orifice with a spiral twist in it to help the vortex = along.  The high pressure going through the twisted orifice will give the vortex = both a high linear velocity and high angular momentum, which are needed to make = a strong vortex. 

After seeing the imploding bubbles and getting a feel for the water hammer = effect, and also having a good understanding about how Tesla’s turbine = motor works, I can now envision the enormous forces that would be acting upon = the surface of any material caught in the vortex.  There would be a = ripping apart and jackhammer effect occurring simultaneously at the molecular scale.  Other than ripping things apart, who knows what other uses = a high-pressure vortex might have?

Dave

 

------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C76D40.B154D5D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:50:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NHo5HX018202; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:50:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NHXWFT008429; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:33:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:33:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:33:22 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_6952d9110e7eb5a5d6536aaddda90a80" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070323173820.549D5BFB53@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/73998 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_6952d9110e7eb5a5d6536aaddda90a80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, You deserve a break today. Somebody needs a nap. Think I'll take a little lunch snooze myself as well. Sweet dreams. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no? > > > > Paul sez: > > > >> So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air. > >> It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given > >> sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling > >> competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is > >> no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3 > >> KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts! > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > > > > Ya gotta just love those spell checkers. > > > > I never new "trackers" could pull so much wait. > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > > You're a riot. Give me a break. I spent an entire 10 hours yesterday replying to > emails. My eyes felt like they were generating 10 megawatts of nuclear fission. > > > Paul Lowrance > > --- Steven Vincent Johnson svj@orionworks.com http://orionworks.com --=_6952d9110e7eb5a5d6536aaddda90a80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul,

You deserve a break today.

Somebody needs a nap.

Think I'll take a little lunch snooze myself as well.

Sweet dreams.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

>
> Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
> > SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no?
> >
> > Paul sez:
> >
> >> So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air.
> >> It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given
> >> sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling
> >> competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is
> >> no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3
> >> KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts!
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Paul Lowrance
> >
> > Ya gotta just love those spell checkers.
> >
> > I never new "trackers" could pull so much wait.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Steven Vincent Johnson
>
>
> You're a riot. Give me a break. I spent an entire 10 hours yesterday repl= ying to
> emails. My eyes felt like they were generating 10 megawatts of nuclear f= ission.
>
>
> Paul Lowrance
>
>
---
Steven Vincent Johnson
svj@orionworks.com
http://orionworks.com --=_6952d9110e7eb5a5d6536aaddda90a80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 12:27:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NJQK1q014736; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:26:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NJQ2Ex014486; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:26:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:26:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323151333.03635e78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:44 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Excess heat from a Pd cylinder In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322163143.0377a008@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322163143.0377a008@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74000 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >. . . in a Seebeck envelope calorimeter which is capable of accurate >heat measurements. . . . There were no explosions, but both ends of >the tube produced continuous excess thermal power (356 mW +/- 11 mW >maximum). . . . The explosions are described here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ZhangXontheexplo.pdf The Seebeck calorimeter was made by Heinz Poppendiek, of Thermonetics Corp. It is the blue box shown in the photo here: http://lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm#HighSchoolStudents (8 photos down) I think Ed Storms might quibble with error estimate of +/- 11 mW, but it is very precise, and you can use it to measure 356 mW or 1.1 W with confidence. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 13:33:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NKXSGK029579; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:33:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NKXQh4029560; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:33:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:33:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323163005.037177a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:33:17 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference In-Reply-To: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> References: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74001 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Chemistry World magazine article that DonW posted here has a surprising statement: "Bob Park, at the University of Maryland . . . concedes that 'there are some curious reports - not cold fusion, but people may be seeing some unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions'." Coming from him, that is an astounding admission. I do not recall ever seeing Park betray even a hint of a positive attitude toward CF. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 13:54:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NKrrVP005802; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:53:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NKrq3R005784; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:53:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:53:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <19e201c76d8d$212fb720$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> <7.0.1.0.2.20070323163005.037177a0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 21:52:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74002 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Coming from him, that is an astounding admission. I do not recall=20 > ever seeing Park betray even a hint of a positive attitude toward CF. Now you mention it, I recall him saying "there might be something, I = don't know what it is" or something like that once previously, can't = find the exact quote. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference > The Chemistry World magazine article that DonW posted here has a=20 > surprising statement: >=20 > "Bob Park, at the University of Maryland . . . concedes that 'there=20 > are some curious reports - not cold fusion, but people may be seeing=20 > some unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions'." >=20 > Coming from him, that is an astounding admission. I do not recall=20 > ever seeing Park betray even a hint of a positive attitude toward CF. >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 13:57:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NKv0ct007711; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:57:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NKuwDP007688; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:56:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:56:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:56:57 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_5bc7ab413eb4f4722b2913e99378fe68" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070323210156.74747BFB58@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74003 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_5bc7ab413eb4f4722b2913e99378fe68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Jed, > The Chemistry World magazine article that DonW posted > here has a surprising statement: > > "Bob Park, at the University of Maryland . . . > concedes that 'there are some curious reports - not > cold fusion, but people may be seeing some unexpected > low-energy nuclear reactions'." > > Coming from him, that is an astounding admission. > I do not recall ever seeing Park betray even a hint > of a positive attitude toward CF. > > - Jed > As you had previously eluded, it would appear that those like Park find it convenient to trick themselves into believing that LENR is NOT CF. Their little corner of the universe remain safe. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_5bc7ab413eb4f4722b2913e99378fe68 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI Jed,

> The Chemistry World magazine article that DonW posted
> here has a surprising statement:
>
> "Bob Park, at the University of Maryland . . .
> concedes that 'there are some curious reports - not
> cold fusion, but people may be seeing some unexpected
> low-energy nuclear reactions'."
>
> Coming from him, that is an astounding admission.
> I do not recall ever seeing Park betray even a hint
> of a positive attitude toward CF.
>
> - Jed
>

As you had previously eluded, it would appear that those like Park find it = convenient to trick themselves into believing that LENR is NOT CF.

Their little corner of the universe remain safe.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_5bc7ab413eb4f4722b2913e99378fe68-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 14:02:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NL2kME013092; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:02:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NL2iDQ013002; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:02:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:02:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46044119.5000505@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:05:29 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference References: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> <7.0.1.0.2.20070323163005.037177a0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323163005.037177a0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6JqMCD.A.8KD.0BEBGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74004 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suggest Park has simply reiterated his belief that the Jones claims are real but not what Pons and Fleischmann discovered. This has been the attitude of the skeptics from the very beginning. In short, I see no change. I wrote to both Park and Garwin, describing by book and asking if they would like to review a preprint. I have received no reply. If a change in attitude were real, I would expect they would want to know what has been discovered in 18 years. A change in attitude is taking place at other levels and I suggest no credit be given to the traditional skeptics. Ed Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > The Chemistry World magazine article that DonW posted here has a > surprising statement: > > "Bob Park, at the University of Maryland . . . concedes that 'there are > some curious reports - not cold fusion, but people may be seeing some > unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions'." > > Coming from him, that is an astounding admission. I do not recall ever > seeing Park betray even a hint of a positive attitude toward CF. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 14:13:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NLDQPJ017230; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:13:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NLDOvK017215; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:13:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:13:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323170641.037177a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:13:02 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference In-Reply-To: <20070323210156.74747BFB58@mail1.mx.core.com> References: <20070323210156.74747BFB58@mail1.mx.core.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9DL5fD.A.6ME.0LEBGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74005 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >As you had previously eluded, it would appear that those like Park >find it convenient to trick themselves into believing that LENR is NOT CF. I once read a hilarious Japanese magazine article about Iwamura's research. It included a comparison table and several paragraphs explaining the "differences" between his claims and cold fusion. The author was bent over backwards trying to make a distinction between the two, and came up with several imaginary differences. The table said had rows such as: EFFECT REPLICATED? Iwamura: Yes Cold fusion: No CLAIMED TO PRODUCES ENERGY? Iwamura: No Cold fusion: Yes The author was apparently unaware of the fact that Iwamura's early papers report energy production. The CF effect in his present system is far too small to produce measurable energy, but I am sure it does produce energy. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 14:18:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NLI7EJ023405; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:18:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NLI6Cw023395; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:18:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:18:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323171402.03635e78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:18:00 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference In-Reply-To: <46044119.5000505@ix.netcom.com> References: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> <7.0.1.0.2.20070323163005.037177a0@mindspring.com> <46044119.5000505@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74006 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >I suggest Park has simply reiterated his belief that the Jones >claims are real but not what Pons and Fleischmann discovered. Ah, yes. The Jones ploy. I should have seen it coming. In the past Park has excoriated Jones, so he must have someone else in mind as the replacement discoverer. Maybe he will claim that Szpak or Miley discovered cold fusion. Still, as I said, by Park's standards this is an extraordinary admission, and perhaps we should take it as a sign of progress, albeit progress at a glacial pace. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 14:29:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NLTLvn028664; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:29:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NLTKWb028651; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:29:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:29:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070323142852.00b05b38@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:32:34 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323163005.037177a0@mindspring.com> References: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74007 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I have watched and listened to every word the man has publicly (and to a certain extent privately) uttered on the subject for the last five years. There is a clear progression. Off the top of my head, he was reported to have said on a Canadian radio show something about not buying it till it was on the shelves..which is not a very scientific statement, but it's also not saying it's "pathological science." A year or two later he was quoted in a paper saying something like, "I wouldn't go out and invest in it yet." Look at the metadata. It's all there. s At 04:33 PM 3/23/2007 -0400, you wrote: >The Chemistry World magazine article that DonW posted here has a >surprising statement: > >"Bob Park, at the University of Maryland . . . concedes that 'there are >some curious reports - not cold fusion, but people may be seeing some >unexpected low-energy nuclear reactions'." > >Coming from him, that is an astounding admission. I do not recall ever >seeing Park betray even a hint of a positive attitude toward CF. > >- Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 14:51:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NLp132005791; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:51:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NLownv005764; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:50:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:50:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070323145342.027b9cb8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: stevek@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:54:10 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_524276375==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: What's New Bob? Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_524276375==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://www.bobpark.org/ Friday, March 23, 2007 1. MARCH MADNESS: COLD FUSION PEAKS AROUND THE VERNAL EQUINOX. On this day 18 years ago, the University of Utah announced the discovery of cold fusion without giving any technical details (WN 24 Mar 89) . The peak came three weeks later when Stanley Pons received a standing ovation at the annual ACS Meeting in Dallas, but by June it was over. The Utah research was exposed as a pitiful embarrassment. For years the faithful sulked at their own annual meetings held at swank resorts around the world. There they could congratulate each other on their progress. Each year another experiment would be hailed as proof, but never survived replication. A few years ago, however, the bolder of the faithful began to reemerge from the dark, giving papers at professional society meetings. They now prefer to call their field Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR),and they held a session at the APS March Meeting in Denver. Next week they will hold a session at the ACS Meeting in Chicago. Once again, there is a new experiment that is being hailed as proof-at-last. Who knows, maybe this will be the one. --=====================_524276375==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://www.bobpark.org/

Friday, March 23, 2007


1. MARCH MADNESS: COLD FUSION PEAKS AROUND THE VERNAL EQUINOX.

On this day 18 years ago, the University of Utah announced the discovery of cold fusion without giving any technical details (WN 24 Mar 89) . The peak came three weeks later when Stanley Pons received a standing ovation at the annual ACS Meeting in Dallas, but by June it was over. The Utah research was exposed as a pitiful embarrassment. For years the faithful sulked at their own annual meetings held at swank resorts around the world. There they could congratulate each other on their progress. Each year another experiment would be hailed as proof, but never survived replication. A few years ago, however, the bolder of the faithful began to reemerge from the dark, giving papers at professional society meetings. They now prefer to call their field Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR),and they held a session at the APS March Meeting in Denver. Next week they will hold a session at the ACS Meeting in Chicago. Once again, there is a new experiment that is being hailed as proof-at-last. Who knows, maybe this will be the one.
--=====================_524276375==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 15:00:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NM0Oge012862; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:00:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NM0MTe012846; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:00:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:00:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323173223.03733a60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:37:54 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20070323142852.00b05b38@mail.newenergytimes.com> References: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> <5.2.0.9.2.20070323142852.00b05b38@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74009 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >I have watched and listened to every word the man has publicly (and >to a certain extent privately) uttered on the subject for the last five years. You have been paying close attention to Robert Park?!? Please stop wasting your time on inanities. This is like watching turds dry in the sun. > There is a clear progression. Perhaps senility? Or the effect of that tree that almost knocked him off? Seriously, Park is not a good litmus test. He is too insensitive, and binary (on/off only). He will not admit CF is real until the Leading Experts have already come around. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 15:56:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NMuTGm010226; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:56:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NMuOOI010169; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:56:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:56:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=QqokSEZskVL5R3aX+uxU5Pkml29zD0mi5MOVDn5vG2c/xaU0Dsl5H67uLbD8MRDN; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <29198069.1174690583038.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:56:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8751504d24f6fd72c277ca4db633241d3540b0f8a6f3b58b0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.38 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74010 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 23, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Mar 23, 2007 1:30 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 23, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 23 Mar 07 Washington, DC 1. MARCH MADNESS: COLD FUSION PEAKS AROUND THE VERNAL EQUINOX. On this day 18 years ago, the University of Utah announced the discovery of cold fusion without giving any technical details http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN89/wn032489.html . The peak came three weeks later when Stanley Pons received a standing ovation at the annual ACS Meeting in Dallas, but by June it was over. The Utah research was exposed as a pitiful embarrassment. For years the faithful sulked at their own annual meetings held at swank resorts around the world. There they could congratulate each other on their progress. Each year another experiment would be hailed as proof, but never survived replication. A few years ago, however, the bolder of the faithful began to reemerge from the dark, giving papers at professional society meetings. They now prefer to call their field Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR),and they held a session at the APS March Meeting in Denver. Next week they will hold a session at the ACS Meeting in Chicago. Once again, there is a new experiment that is being hailed as proof-at-last. Who knows, maybe this will be the one. 2. BUBBLE TROUBLE: CONGRESS LOOKS INTO THE OTHER COLD FUSION. Last month we predicted that Rusi Taleyarkhan's troubles aren't over http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN07/wn021607.html . You will recall that while he was at ORNL Taleyarkhan claimed in a paper published by Science that he had generated deuterium fusion in sonoluminescence. His claims were disputed by two experienced physicists, Putterman and Suslick, who repeated the work and got no indication of fusion. After Taleyarkhan joined Purdue as a Nuclear Engineering professor, another paper was published that seemed to independently verify his ORNL results. Who were the authors? Taleyarkhan's students. What were they being trained to do? They apparently had little to do with the research. When a Purdue misconduct investigation seemed headed for the wrong answer it was terminated. A second Purdue investigation cleared Taleyarkhan of misconduct. Now Rep. Brad Miller (D-NC), chair of the Science Committee's Investigations Subcommittee has requested a copy of the University's internal investigation reports. 3. WIKIPEDIA: HAS A BEAUTIFUL IDEA FALLEN VICTIM TO HUMAN NATURE? Science owes its success and credibility to openness. Findings, including details of how they were obtained, are exposed to the scrutiny of the entire scientific community. It sounds like a prescription for chaos, but it's a mechanism for self-correction. The alternative is dogma. Could openness be extended to all knowledge? With Wikipedia, it seemed to work for a time, but for those who profit from a misinformed public, including purveyors of pseudoscience, the target is too tempting to leave alone. 4. LAST WEEK: WE APOLOGIZE FOR BEING A FEW DAYS LATE WITH WN. Why do technical problems always come up on Spring Break? THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 16:11:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2NNAxIc027802; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:10:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2NNAvgX027789; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:10:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:10:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MPP/N4yUhTcrbynV6LAPKuFuLJdrPTfY76abNZc3xCCzeyPgWuoj2sBL6GnTTvwJTwiP5uw/Tjnpb6rZxJC01z0DrP6BMLIny0vo9g+8RmIKDh1SXPslEhaCnq0MiQtPestpChCKIgFj6IO/aperTjrkPpHRwN3zQpnSXbuZWqk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=i5OhLpBrEXXLjy6v2Im8oBkXH2z3myI+qyNklMNTsqmC9oeqhuRkd6Z3eVkrGPUTVJDF9K+W6FHMgsPCkkR0FyEC1Gg49jYerFdiG1BddWJ9ac5aKefYcoGa0oC09GQN2kx41HSBgYPHJUE8H4zOnSkeoCPL5Psl2aeMuCz5GFY= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:10:56 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion back on the menu (ACS) 2007 conference In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323173223.03733a60@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000001c76cea$ef68d340$6600000a@donw> <5.2.0.9.2.20070323142852.00b05b38@mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070323173223.03733a60@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74011 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/23/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Perhaps senility? Or the effect of that tree that almost knocked him off? For which I advocate a new national holiday: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbor_Day After all, it *does* sequester CO2. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 23:36:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2O6a6pB023620; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:36:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2O6a4wa023604; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:36:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:36:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=TnzQrrDHKGaAarMmtT3izgThL0WThgzXLxiaEn7/fmSSpU/+1hTL60heaSEyx+47uV5XUx3kG+RIpzgrRD51S6xha4/nNiYbvJM2YfylDf4/+SyDgrwqKGxcFrbAFxQhMFTxH9nc7ri3tMQVOnVx/jpQqCaFAxCggvfYSJDjbRs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=GXdFXB8TQFrDqjzoEsQ9fThlK6GPu91RML8HT4Bu/L0jAGAkP+x1H60eUHMyTYvbQYlzY67EJ6I5r9oq3Jkb2uB+Y+Gg14viuBJW7FE2T9q85v8NFAPwQrkI3QAqsYOy6w1sjJKh8nM6j2b8N6CNPrfzVZFLXrDjQYmCQU302NM= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703232336m78a6ffc4l90888203ebe8ce44@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:36:00 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage In-Reply-To: <009501c76d72$fbef45d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_231583_5952707.1174718160408" References: <538fa8f10703231014h5a5470fdg83225264c943f542@mail.gmail.com> <009501c76d72$fbef45d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: <64rQUC.A.swF.UbMBGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74012 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_231583_5952707.1174718160408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 23/03/07, David Thomson wrote: > > Hi Esa, > > heres a not that expensive one to build (im yet to build it tho) > *http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/centripete/ > * > > also i just finished scanning a picture from a book on > grander+schauberger, this is the hyperbolic cone for creating a vortex. > *http://www.scene.org/~esa/tratti2.jpg > * > I already have a gravity feed vortex generator. It's good to see others > working with this, too. I spent two straight years observing water vortices > on a daily basis with this type of setup. I would be glad to discuss my > observations with interested persons. What is the link to the Schauberger > list? > The ViktorSchaubergerGroup is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/viktorschaubergergroup > > thank you so much for dropping the waterhammer-effect hint, i definitely > have to hunt this down. even a brief mention on > >waterhammer/cavitation would be music to my ears. again, thanks muchly, > id never have heard of this had it not been for your post on vortex-list. i > believe others on viktorschaubergergroup-list also benefited from this. > Yes, I too was surprised about the water hammer effect being linked to the > water vortex in the NOVA demonstration. There is probably only about 60 > seconds of water vortex video in the show, but it was the most enlightening > video I have seen so far. It also helps to understand how the Windhex is > working. The Windhex is nothing more than a vortex generator using a less > dense fluid. Imagine how much more powerful a dense water hammer effect > would be for processing materials. If the water hammer vortex can eat > through stone with no problem, it will likely also pulverize steel and other > hard metals if designed right. > surely it could also be used for uniting substances - for instance with the idea behind Viktor Schauberger's Repulsator (to combine various minerals, salts etc whilst strongly whirling them to produce mountain-spring quality water). Yes there's a flashier way to disintegrate material, however, this would knock out all of these ridiculous "spring water"-plastic bottles etc. IET-Community have done some tests with their replication of a Repulsator, and there is also a list of minerals etc that have been used in these type processes, i believe in Energy Evolution. > Instead of using the gravity feed vortex, I'm thinking of getting a high > pressure water pump and building a closed loop water circulation system, > just as in the NOVA show. However, instead of running water passed a smooth > stone, I'll build an orifice with a spiral twist in it to help the vortex > along. The high pressure going through the twisted orifice will give the > vortex both a high linear velocity and high angular momentum, which are > needed to make a strong vortex. > Will you be using Hyperbolic Geometry (Walter Schauberger), or Golden-mean-ratio -related geometry (as viktor would've) to calculate+create the spiral twist? here are is at least one page related to twisty-pipes: http://www.pks.or.at/drinkingwater.html Btw, if you are looking for creating a strong vortex, maybe you would be interested in the micro-hydroturbine that Viktor designed, which is off/and/on being opensource-recreated (but physically by no-one) on http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Jet-Turbine seems like an intriguing project, to be able to utilize any stream for the creation of electricity. surely this could be created, and made into portable devices. all thats really missing is the math/geometry involved, the idea however has been laid out in the patent ( http://rexresearch.com/schaub/schaub.htm#117749 ).. and then there was the Schladming Group connection in Austria who were building it (mentions in PKS2002 seminar, and Living Energies by Callum Coats). .. however, this is still not .. built. at least not officially. > After seeing the imploding bubbles and getting a feel for the water hammer > effect, and also having a good understanding about how Tesla's turbine motor > works, I can now envision the enormous forces that would be acting upon the > surface of any material caught in the vortex. There would be a ripping > apart and jackhammer effect occurring simultaneously at the molecular > scale. Other than ripping things apart, who knows what other uses a > high-pressure vortex might have? > well, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonofusion comes to mind. all this material on waterhammer/cavitation/acoustic cavitation/creating harmonics out of a base note (sung/instrumental) to create this inside a cavity (keely) is an area that is slowly becoming apparent as a world of possibilities - so i cant wait to see the nova documentary. there is precious little information about this. oh and by the way, regarding waterhammer/cavitation, i really recommend hunting down the 2 hour documentary from dale pond (the basics of sympathetic vibratory physics (SVP)) where he tries to dissect a keely motor for us (which definitely used waterhammer) - even showing an early prototype of keely's. Dale Pond has also done an amazing job in compiling a bibliography on Cavitation - available on his website. This is the kind of stuff i'd love to see a conversation on vortex-list spring up on, because, well, theres things to be discovered there still. happy vortexing ------=_Part_231583_5952707.1174718160408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 23/03/07, David Thomson <dwt@volantis.org> wrote:

Hi Esa,
> heres a not that expensive one to build (im yet to build it tho)
http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/centripete/
> also i just finished scanning a picture from a book on grander+schauberger, this is the hyperbolic cone for creating a vortex.
http://www.scene.org/~esa/tratti2.jpg
I already have a gravity feed vortex generator.  It's good to see others working with this, too.  I spent two straight years observing water vortices on a daily basis with this type of setup.  I would be glad to discuss my observations with interested persons.  What is the link to the Schauberger list?

> thank you so much for dropping the waterhammer-effect hint, i definitely have to hunt this down. even a brief mention on
>waterhammer/cavitation would be music to my ears. again, thanks muchly, id never have heard of this had it not been for your post on vortex-list. i believe others on viktorschaubergergroup-list also benefited from this.

Yes, I too was surprised about the water hammer effect being linked to the water vortex in the NOVA demonstration.  There is probably only about 60 seconds of water vortex video in the show, but it was the most enlightening video I have seen so far.  It also helps to understand how the Windhex is working.  The Windhex is nothing more than a vortex generator using a less dense fluid.  Imagine how much more powerful a dense water hammer effect would be for processing materials.  If the water hammer vortex can eat through stone with no problem, it will likely also pulverize steel and other hard metals if designed right.

surely it could also be used for uniting substances - for instance with the idea behind Viktor Schauberger's Repulsator (to combine various minerals, salts etc whilst strongly whirling them to produce mountain-spring quality water). Yes there's a flashier way to disintegrate material, however, this would knock out all of these ridiculous "spring water"-plastic bottles etc. IET-Community have done some tests with their replication of a Repulsator, and there is also a list of minerals etc  that have been used in these type processes, i believe in Energy Evolution.

Instead of using the gravity feed vortex, I'm thinking of getting a high pressure water pump and building a closed loop water circulation system, just as in the NOVA show.  However, instead of running water passed a smooth stone, I'll build an orifice with a spiral twist in it to help the vortex along.  The high pressure going through the twisted orifice will give the vortex both a high linear velocity and high angular momentum, which are needed to make a strong vortex. 

Will you be using Hyperbolic Geometry (Walter Schauberger), or Golden-mean-ratio -related geometry (as viktor would've) to calculate+create the spiral twist?
here are is at least one page related to twisty-pipes: http://www.pks.or.at/drinkingwater.html

Btw, if you are looking for creating  a strong vortex, maybe you would be interested in the micro-hydroturbine that Viktor designed, which is off/and/on being opensource-recreated (but physically by no-one) on http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Jet-Turbine
seems like an intriguing project, to be able to utilize any stream for the creation of electricity. surely this could be created, and made into portable devices. all thats really missing is the math/geometry involved, the idea however has been laid out in the patent
( http://rexresearch.com/schaub/schaub.htm#117749 ).. and then there was the Schladming Group  connection in Austria who were building it (mentions in PKS2002 seminar, and Living Energies by Callum Coats). .. however, this is still not .. built. at least not officially.

After seeing the imploding bubbles and getting a feel for the water hammer effect, and also having a good understanding about how Tesla's turbine motor works, I can now envision the enormous forces that would be acting upon the surface of any material caught in the vortex.  There would be a ripping apart and jackhammer effect occurring simultaneously at the molecular scale.  Other than ripping things apart, who knows what other uses a high-pressure vortex might have?

well, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonofusion  comes to mind. all this material on waterhammer/cavitation/acoustic cavitation/creating harmonics out of a base note (sung/instrumental) to create this inside a cavity (keely) is an area that is slowly becoming  apparent as a world of possibilities - so i cant wait to see the nova documentary. there is precious little information about this.

oh and by the way, regarding waterhammer/cavitation, i really recommend hunting down the 2 hour documentary from dale pond (the basics of sympathetic vibratory physics (SVP)) where he tries to dissect a keely motor for us (which definitely used waterhammer) - even showing an early prototype of keely's. Dale Pond has also done an amazing job in compiling a bibliography on Cavitation - available on his website. This is the kind of stuff i'd love to see a conversation on vortex-list spring up on, because, well, theres things to be discovered there still.

happy vortexing
------=_Part_231583_5952707.1174718160408-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 23:44:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2O6idWe006478; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:44:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2O6iXOk006442; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:44:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:44:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4604C8C4.4080807@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:44:20 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage References: <008301c76d6e$bec489d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <008301c76d6e$bec489d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74013 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Thomson wrote: >Hi Thomas, > > > >>I've considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. They >> >> >clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you >have some ideas for experiments that you'd like to try? > >It seems that a water version of the Windhex might be useful. I was >thinking of building a water version for pulverizing old circuit boards to >reclaim the precious metals. > >Dave > > > > Brilliant idea, IMHO --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 03:03:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OA3J3B032529; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 03:03:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OA3HHi032512; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 03:03:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 03:03:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ds8skK3YM0mNX3SvjzuZ1oLkFvNqNxBPW8q1d9ikuUB22xAlY/TiEJPeE0QsoDzm; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <412-2200736241033886@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 04:03:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406a509909df4063d88d2cc4aa8de043cf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.185 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74014 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A time-varying Electric Field around a Multipole might act as Tachyons if the "legs" are sequenced in the right manner. The electrostatic induction effect from this might also allow lift from a planet or moon, as well as generation of a force field, "cloaking" and "Warp 10" FTL travel. Try this three-point device next Sunday? O O O Fred http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Tachyon.html "Tachyons are a putative class of particles which able to travel faster than the speed of light. Tachyons were first proposed by physicist Arnold Sommerfeld, and named by Gerald Feinberg. The word tachyon derives from the Greek (tachus), meaning "speedy." Tachyons have the strange properties that, when they lose energy, they gain speed. Consequently, when tachyons gain energy, they slow down. The slowest speed possible for tachyons is the speed of light. Tachyons appear to violate causality (the so-called causality problem), since they could be sent to the past under the assumption that the principle of special relativity is a true law of nature, thus generating a real unavoidable time paradox (Maiorino and Rodrigues 1999). Therefore, it seems unavoidable that if tachyons exist, the principle of special relativity must be false, and there exists a unique time order for all observers in the universe independent of their state of motion. Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996). It has been proposed that tachyons could be produced from high-energy particle collisions, and tachyon searches have been undertaken in cosmic rays. Cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere with high energy (some of them with speed almost 99.99% of the speed of light) making several collisions with the molecules in the atmosphere. The particles made by this collision interact with the air, creating even more particles in a phenomenon known as a cosmic ray shower. In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A time-varying Electric Field around a Multipole might act as Tachyons if the "legs"
are sequenced in the right manner.
 
The electrostatic induction effect from this might also allow lift from a planet or moon,
as well as generation of a force field, "cloaking" and "Warp 10" FTL travel.
 
Try this three-point device next Sunday?            
 
                                            O
 
                                     O          O   
 
Fred
 
 

"Tachyons are a putative class of particles which able to travel faster than the speed of light. Tachyons were first proposed by physicist Arnold Sommerfeld, and named by Gerald Feinberg. The word tachyon derives from the Greek (tachus), meaning "speedy." Tachyons have the strange properties that, when they lose energy, they gain speed. Consequently, when tachyons gain energy, they slow down. The slowest speed possible for tachyons is the speed of light.

Tachyons appear to violate causality (the so-called causality problem), since they could be sent to the past under the assumption that the principle of special relativity is a true law of nature, thus generating a real unavoidable time paradox (Maiorino and Rodrigues 1999). Therefore, it seems unavoidable that if tachyons exist, the principle of special relativity must be false, and there exists a unique time order for all observers in the universe Eric Weisstein's World of Astronomy independent of their state of motion.

Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996).

It has been proposed that tachyons could be produced from high-energy particle collisions, and tachyon searches have been undertaken in cosmic rays. Cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere with high energy (some of them with speed almost 99.99% of the speed of light) making several collisions with the molecules in the atmosphere. The particles made by this collision interact with the air, creating even more particles in a phenomenon known as a cosmic ray shower. In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced."

 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="timg1.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: timg1.gif Content-Id: <410-2200736241031723@13071999> R0lGODlhMQAdALMAAAAAAJmZmXd3d1VVVe7u7jMzM8zMzBEREaqqqoiIiGZmZv///0RERN3d3SIi Iru7uyH5BAEAAAsALAAAAAAxAB0AAAT7cMlJq7046827/2AodsZoYgjwnKzUHEHbCqUsPfVEPMS1 U7nFLihBHABIZO1RQAgUroVC4OhJAghpQnBTCQWCRyI2MQweAcZjfT3UDgjsokEAcBfORQDNkBAc PAxEE1kLCQkUBAd3CwxgFAIFCw93iIsTNI8bCkEBADkMjhSeDwMUD58TUKIadRVUFAwFVhMHVRQJ DmWIAjAaRhUBun4OAgS0f32QkhIDPQQDAGoYCsoUBWFguQoNqr20cwcJCJxABQcYdBcNKy7dEmEN AIgVBoMS6DYChaEeTmQtAgBMEQCKDQ/vyjxIeLChw4cQI0qcSLGixYsYM2rcEAEAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="astronomy.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: astronomy.gif Content-Id: <184671-2200736241031724@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAKIAAP///9KhBtbOpHJsEO/ozqSDErutcenCPiH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAM0 CLrc/oCQKCYzIYsyLMBBURzCYChEJh6qgIpZNgyoEMuD+w1sOBQBi2kz0yxKHIGhAnkkAAA7 ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 03:12:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OACZAs002883; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 03:12:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OACYeS002870; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 03:12:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 03:12:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=UF7M3jEM/Nl8A4RUljbF0m37fZi+o1Y4fkbkPF203WhbS1JnHagISAvDmudqBppN; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <412-220073624101214278@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 04:12:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e2a48a6e25b51d0d46b56d8d57d92451350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.185 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74015 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 3/24/2007 4:03:37 AM Subject: [Vo]: A time-varying Electric Field around a Multipole might act as Tachyons if the "legs" are sequenced in the right manner. The electrostatic induction effect from this might also allow lift from a planet or moon, as well as generation of a force field, "cloaking" and "Warp 10" FTL travel. Try this three-point device next Sunday? O O O Fred http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Tachyon.html "Tachyons are a putative class of particles which able to travel faster than the speed of light. Tachyons were first proposed by physicist Arnold Sommerfeld, and named by Gerald Feinberg. The word tachyon derives from the Greek (tachus), meaning "speedy." Tachyons have the strange properties that, when they lose energy, they gain speed. Consequently, when tachyons gain energy, they slow down. The slowest speed possible for tachyons is the speed of light. Tachyons appear to violate causality (the so-called causality problem), since they could be sent to the past under the assumption that the principle of special relativity is a true law of nature, thus generating a real unavoidable time paradox (Maiorino and Rodrigues 1999). Therefore, it seems unavoidable that if tachyons exist, the principle of special relativity must be false, and there exists a unique time order for all observers in the universe independent of their state of motion. Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996). It has been proposed that tachyons could be produced from high-energy particle collisions, and tachyon searches have been undertaken in cosmic rays. Cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere with high energy (some of them with speed almost 99.99% of the speed of light) making several collisions with the molecules in the atmosphere. The particles made by this collision interact with the air, creating even more particles in a phenomenon known as a cosmic ray shower. In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/24/2007 4:03:37 AM
Subject: [Vo]:

A time-varying Electric Field around a Multipole might act as Tachyons if the "legs"
are sequenced in the right manner.
 
The electrostatic induction effect from this might also allow lift from a planet or moon,
as well as generation of a force field, "cloaking" and "Warp 10" FTL travel.
 
Try this three-point device next Sunday?            
 
                                            O
 
                                     O          O   
 
Fred
 
 

"Tachyons are a putative class of particles which able to travel faster than the speed of light. Tachyons were first proposed by physicist Arnold Sommerfeld, and named by Gerald Feinberg. The word tachyon derives from the Greek (tachus), meaning "speedy." Tachyons have the strange properties that, when they lose energy, they gain speed. Consequently, when tachyons gain energy, they slow down. The slowest speed possible for tachyons is the speed of light.

Tachyons appear to violate causality (the so-called causality problem), since they could be sent to the past under the assumption that the principle of special relativity is a true law of nature, thus generating a real unavoidable time paradox (Maiorino and Rodrigues 1999). Therefore, it seems unavoidable that if tachyons exist, the principle of special relativity must be false, and there exists a unique time order for all observers in the universe Eric Weisstein's World of Astrono! my independent of their state of motion.

Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996).

It has been proposed that tachyons could be produced from high-energy particle collisions, and tachyon searches have been undertaken in cosmic rays. Cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere with high energy (some of them with speed almost 99.99% of the speed of light) making several collisions with the molecules in the atmosphere. The particles made by this collision interact with the air, creating even more particles in a phenomenon known as a cosmic ray shower. In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced."

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="timg1.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: timg1.gif Content-Id: <410-2200736241012104025@13071999> R0lGODlhMQAdALMAAAAAAJmZmXd3d1VVVe7u7jMzM8zMzBEREaqqqoiIiGZmZv///0RERN3d3SIi Iru7uyH5BAEAAAsALAAAAAAxAB0AAAT7cMlJq7046827/2AodsZoYgjwnKzUHEHbCqUsPfVEPMS1 U7nFLihBHABIZO1RQAgUroVC4OhJAghpQnBTCQWCRyI2MQweAcZjfT3UDgjsokEAcBfORQDNkBAc PAxEE1kLCQkUBAd3CwxgFAIFCw93iIsTNI8bCkEBADkMjhSeDwMUD58TUKIadRVUFAwFVhMHVRQJ DmWIAjAaRhUBun4OAgS0f32QkhIDPQQDAGoYCsoUBWFguQoNqr20cwcJCJxABQcYdBcNKy7dEmEN AIgVBoMS6DYChaEeTmQtAgBMEQCKDQ/vyjxIeLChw4cQI0qcSLGixYsYM2rcEAEAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="astronomy.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: astronomy.gif Content-Id: <184671-2200736241012104026@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAKIAAP///9KhBtbOpHJsEO/ozqSDErutcenCPiH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAM0 CLrc/oCQKCYzIYsyLMBBURzCYChEJh6qgIpZNgyoEMuD+w1sOBQBi2kz0yxKHIGhAnkkAAA7 ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 05:52:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OCpwfr007218; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 05:51:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OCpusf007198; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 05:51:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 05:51:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=S9Fm2fCaSRbNTO4GUr80cgYlM3qRxH7ZuMNzOznzWNY2s6epliQuEBJb5ihU1JFzCiPe/xgalw0avLbVQmNX7+lylJiArM9YYwb5pbo9Da+xamjZUBI0B1UcCgtpWkVnObI8lryeOGfsVf45QtEU0z2S6/2zQcV/Qm9A6KS+XiU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eazx1KpE0Etnyx7zNo+ESsIEGxybHMnC0IayPmDP9XcYGd6DJ+oMZYKdhdhqJMr4owAwu08KNppc1ix2umHFV7me1DDCK5DzGJX6REF5xzoLbnR0zwGgGqGgutONRFX9Li/gC2QcPHl6CNOW4hFfmFstIArwg8p4/zP2qm2j6YQ= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:51:53 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703232336m78a6ffc4l90888203ebe8ce44@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <538fa8f10703231014h5a5470fdg83225264c943f542@mail.gmail.com> <009501c76d72$fbef45d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <538fa8f10703232336m78a6ffc4l90888203ebe8ce44@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74016 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/24/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: > oh and by the way, regarding waterhammer/cavitation, i really recommend > hunting down the 2 hour documentary from dale pond (the basics of > sympathetic vibratory physics (SVP)) Would this be it: http://snipurl.com/b3tl http://mail.google.com/mail/?auth=DQAAAHIAAAAApkNZxuMcXdo-zzKnrKX1K_0WglE1_ue9jLvIEkQ9y6HS00l5wpSAjr_nEzlTRfK7MWzqWSjD3JNlqPP6RQIuymvFhalh6rY0Bk3tunRC52vMg8lNy8sZdEQalCox4vUK5UXc9rf-bIr2CM-cxDBXhVb0gGWVrJ-gF4qhu9UJuw&zx=yo8ei5lmjn3y&shva=1 Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 07:07:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OE7VSF004562; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:07:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OE7Nep004514; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:07:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:07:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qaRFR7ckHtgFuHaigXmAhjeMlFA8o19QMKUZqVOb2dfFS/zCVMGNGqd1RRKbNdmULmXVZJTdIsE3sNuWNMwPE+EjMaI5bfos2iw7EBwGWsciMx0hth30EYrCOJOlqFEqKSDbaBB1JI850Gchwjmso0woNapSorBmxCXmvQon2m8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=EB/wECONXKBdJsvU0ebxdZFNRdwKzAjy9K1l9quYoxoSx5PJnDP6q3tg0MhOoBplV1wU+UhUkZxi+2iPHI0fplZSgamXcLyBXXOWLoH5NZpb+2AqsLKy4km/+aZLi8ilcvo19dQFGxmYPGyQA0UmSpaNeZTOZMYZUyNM1DSnT0M= Message-ID: <538fa8f10703240707m3c1fa4f7gb2432b48019e816@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:07:23 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, hohlraum@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_233908_17904548.1174745243214" References: <538fa8f10703231014h5a5470fdg83225264c943f542@mail.gmail.com> <009501c76d72$fbef45d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <538fa8f10703232336m78a6ffc4l90888203ebe8ce44@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74017 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_233908_17904548.1174745243214 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline linking gmail isnt quite gonna do it. try again! :) On 24/03/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 3/24/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: > > > oh and by the way, regarding waterhammer/cavitation, i really recommend > > hunting down the 2 hour documentary from dale pond (the basics of > > sympathetic vibratory physics (SVP)) > > Would this be it: > > http://snipurl.com/b3tl > > > http://mail.google.com/mail/?auth=DQAAAHIAAAAApkNZxuMcXdo-zzKnrKX1K_0WglE1_ue9jLvIEkQ9y6HS00l5wpSAjr_nEzlTRfK7MWzqWSjD3JNlqPP6RQIuymvFhalh6rY0Bk3tunRC52vMg8lNy8sZdEQalCox4vUK5UXc9rf-bIr2CM-cxDBXhVb0gGWVrJ-gF4qhu9UJuw&zx=yo8ei5lmjn3y&shva=1 > > Terry > > ------=_Part_233908_17904548.1174745243214 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline linking gmail isnt quite gonna do it. try again! :)

On 24/03/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3/24/07, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:

> oh and by the way, regarding waterhammer/cavitation, i really recommend
> hunting down the 2 hour documentary from dale pond (the basics of
> sympathetic vibratory physics (SVP))

Would this be it:

http://snipurl.com/b3tl

http://mail.google.com/mail/?auth=DQAAAHIAAAAApkNZxuMcXdo-zzKnrKX1K_0WglE1_ue9jLvIEkQ9y6HS00l5wpSAjr_nEzlTRfK7MWzqWSjD3JNlqPP6RQIuymvFhalh6rY0Bk3tunRC52vMg8lNy8sZdEQalCox4vUK5UXc9rf-bIr2CM-cxDBXhVb0gGWVrJ-gF4qhu9UJuw&zx=yo8ei5lmjn3y&shva=1

Terry


------=_Part_233908_17904548.1174745243214-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 07:30:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OEUD2k012856; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:30:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OEUBth012838; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:30:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:30:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=oKV2KcdkKSMRnDmT8BMHW+EsGokTxHwiLBQvPtsfwHj0O2hlYoA2l9o9HUeSqjxQ; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <24738739.1174746611620.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:30:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: What's New Bob? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c358c01ee508cdd9ddb73bb596cccc7dab5056274cdc34e8d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.26 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74018 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve Krivit quotes Robert Park: >at the annual ACS Meeting in Dallas, but by June it was over. The Utah >research was exposed as a pitiful embarrassment. . . . For years the faithful >sulked at their own annual meetings held at swank resorts around the world. >There they could congratulate each other on their progress. Each year >another experiment would be hailed as proof, but never survived >replication. . . . Once again, there is a new >experiment that is being hailed as proof-at-last. Who knows, maybe this >will be the one. Ah, that's more like it! He is back to his old self. As you see, he has not given an inch in 18 years. This is same pack of lies and nonsense he has been spouting all along. To answer Steve's question: Nothing is new. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 10:57:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OHv5xd017650; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:57:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OHv3IA017640; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:57:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 10:57:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: "Vortex" Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:56:50 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74019 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: What about Bob? Status: O X-Status: SUBJECT: What about Bob? First, Bob's recent comment: > 1. MARCH MADNESS: COLD FUSION PEAKS AROUND THE VERNAL > EQUINOX. > On this day 18 years ago, the University of Utah > announced the discovery of cold fusion without giving > any technical details > http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN89/wn032489.html. > The peak came three weeks later when Stanley Pons > received a standing ovation at the annual ACS Meeting > in Dallas, but by June it was over. The Utah > research was exposed as a pitiful embarrassment. > For years the faithful sulked at their own annual > meetings held at swank resorts around the world. > There they could congratulate each other on their > progress. Each year another experiment would > be hailed as proof, but never survived replication. > A few years ago, however, the bolder of the > faithful began to reemerge from the dark, giving > papers at professional society meetings. They now > prefer to call their field Low-Energy Nuclear > Reactions (LENR), and they held a session at the > APS March Meeting in Denver. Next week they will > hold a session at the ACS Meeting in Chicago. > Once again, there is a new experiment that is > being hailed as proof-at-last. Who knows, maybe > this will be the one. Next, Jed's reflections: > Ah, that's more like it! He is back to his old self. > As you see, he has not given an inch in 18 years. > This is same pack of lies and nonsense he has been > spouting all along. To answer Steve's [Krivit] > question: Nothing is new. > > - Jed Jed, I'm not entirely convinced that he hasn't budged. Bob's last statement suggests a conveniently constructed escape hatch so that perhaps at a future date he can tell his captivated audience: Well, I kept hoping those guys would come up with something interesting. I think Ed Storms said it best some time ago when he described Bob's opinions as coming from an individual who is in love with the cleverness of his own words. Well, shoot! I like writing clever comments too. Sometimes I even succeed. Sometimes not, more often than I wish. The question I would like to ask is whether this latest Bob bout is worth taking issue with as far as ACS is concerned. Bob's comment was obviously designed with pre-meditated intent to ridicule the ACS as a legitimate scientific organization. It strikes me as an effort to demean the usefulness of ACS as an organization capable of presenting useful scientific knowledge, and THAT's what I wonder if ACS would care to address. How many times can so-called respected scientists and physicists get away with blowing hot air (albeit occasionally clever hot air) out of their own a##es and expect to get away with it. Strikes me as the old "my willywag is bigger than your willywag" ploy. Perhaps it isn't worth ACS's time and effort to call him to the mat on this issue. After all, size does not always matter. Just wondering out loud. Regards, www.OrionWorks.com Steven Vincent Johnson From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 12:50:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OJo9F4001910; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:50:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OJo48D001836; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:50:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:50:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46058190.7090806@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:52:48 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Vo]: The lastest word on cold fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74020 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those who are interested in knowing what has been discovered about cold fusion, or better yet the Fleischmann-Pons Effect, I call your attention to the latest book on the subject. This book contains 1070 citations to publications up to 2006 and describes all aspects of the phenomenon. In addition, some of the theory is evaluated and some plausible mechanisms are suggested. Anyone who rejects the reality of the phenomenon after reading this description clearly is not objective. I will be interested to see what Park and the other skeptics have to say after they read this book. Regards, Ed http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?dest=9999999997&product_id=5682407&sourceid=0100000030660805302498 http://newenergytimes.com/Books/StormsSLENR/SLENR.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 14:50:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OLoJ7j031103; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:50:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OLoHfb031093; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:50:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:50:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: UFO records released in France Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:50:15 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <46037649.5060900@usfamily.net> <004001c76d3d$58f0d7c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> In-Reply-To: <004001c76d3d$58f0d7c0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta08sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:50:14 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74021 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to David Thomson's message of Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:20:53 -0600: Hi, [snip] >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR200703= 2202 >132.html [snip] Quote: "One case file described how investigators proved a man was lying about = being abducted by aliens when blood tests failed to show he had recently = experienced the weightlessness of space travel." This reminds me of the early transistor patent that was knocked back = because it didn't contain a "heated cathode", and hence "couldn't work". Has it not occurred to these people that alien races that can travel = between the stars probably have artificial gravity, hence no evidence of = weightlessness is even to be expected? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 15:07:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OM6oDJ013913; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:06:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OM6mDK013887; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:06:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:06:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: UFO records released in France Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:06:18 -0600 Message-ID: <004501c76e60$ae4f5920$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcduXrsyRwT0yQ3CTqC8kZhcThnBOAAAW+7w Resent-Message-ID: <_1_9PC.A.0YD.4DaBGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74022 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, "One case file described how investigators proved a man was lying about being abducted by aliens when blood tests failed to show he had recently experienced the weightlessness of space travel." > Has it not occurred to these people that alien races that can travel between the stars probably have artificial gravity, hence no evidence of weightlessness is even to be expected? Good point. All the reported cases of UFO abductions I have read stated the aliens walked around the craft, not floated. Of course, this could be due to the lack of imagination of fake abductions, but if the abductions are real, then your point would be more reasonable than the conclusion of "lying." Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 15:42:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2OMgMW8031010; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:42:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2OMgLP6030990; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:42:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 15:42:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Excess heat from a Pd cylinder Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:42:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322163143.0377a008@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070323151333.03635e78@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070323151333.03635e78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:42:15 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74023 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:25:44 -0400: Hi, [snip] >The explosions are described here: > >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ZhangXontheexplo.pdf [snip] These people appear to still be searching for the explanation, that = Hydrino fusion has long provided. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 16:42:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ONfsI2031551; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:41:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ONfpH7031525; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:41:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:41:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=YIX7JykTqsh9klzlFhOZS+kRnMhraJlVU9C3eZjKEIOIQ+TpQtZ/q2k0gdtJMW9f; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <412-220073624234137422@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Are Fast Neutrons Tachyons? Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:41:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b6cfd21cc06c4aec9b274d9ff0d5dc34350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74024 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Curious? http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw12.html "The source of the cygnons has been traced to an unusual binary star system in the constellation Cygnus. In recent years space-bourne instruments have been able to examine the universe through a new window, the x-ray part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Bright sources of x-rays have been located and catalogged, and it has been found that the constellation Cygnus contains three bright x-rays objects. One of these called Cygnus X-3 is probably the most powerful source of high energy photons in the galaxy and has become the hottest topic in astrophysics today. Cygnus X-3 is on the other side of our galaxy, about 30,000 light-years from Earth. It is a binary star system, probably consisting of a neutron-star supernova remnant orbiting a normal star which feeds it hydrogen. The system has an orbital period of 4.79 hours. That's a remarkably short period: if a neutron star of 1 solar mass were orbiting our sun with that period, its orbit would be less than one solar radius above the sun's surface!! The 4.79 hour period can be used as a sort of "fingerprint" to tag radiation from Cygnus X-3, which should change in strength with this characteristic period. This period has been seen in Cygnus X-3 infrared, visible, x-ray, and gamma-ray emissions. The cygnons in the underground experiments have also been found to fluctuate with the same 4.79 hour period. This is confirming evidence that they come from Cygnus X-3. It also means that they travel at essentially the velocity of light; otherwise a spread of lower velocities straggling out across 30,000 light years would wash out the time variations. Cygnons events observed with the Fly's Eye have truly enormous kinetic energies: up to 20 million times the mass-energy of a proton at rest, or 20,000 times more energy than particles from even the largest earthbound accelerators. They must have no electric charge because they travel in a straight line path from Cygnus X-3. Their path is not curved by the magnetic field of the galaxy, as the path of a proton or any other charged particle would be. Further, the cygnons are found to make many µ-mesons in their collisions with the atmosphere, suggesting that they are strongly interacting particles (like protons) rather than electromagnetic particles (gamma rays) or weak particles (neutrinos). The zero charge of the cygnons is intriguing, for all of the known stable neutral particles can be counted on the fingers of one hand with a few fingers left over. The only truly stable neutral particles are photons, neutrinos, and neutral atoms. For good measure we could include the neutron, which is unstable to beta decay with a half life of 10.6 minutes. There are good reasons for eliminating each of these as cygnon candidates. As all good Analog readers know, relativity makes clocks run slower. Neutrons could possibly make it from Cygnus X-3 to Earth before decaying if they travelled so fast that relativistic time dilation slowed their internal clock until 10 minutes of internal neutron time became equivalent to 30,000 years of earth time. But this time dilation factor needs neutrons with 100 times more energy than the most energetic cygnon events which the Fly's Eye has seen. Neutral atoms can be eliminated because the "empty space" between Earth and Cygnus X-3 is not completely empty. A pipe with a cross section one centimeter square stretching across this distance would contain about 5 grams of interstellar hydrogen. This is several thousand times more matter than required to strip some electrons from any energetic neutral atom and give it a net electrical charge. Neutrinos can be eliminated because they interact with matter too weakly, and also because the detected cygnons show a "horizon effect", diminished counts when Cygnus X-3 drops below the horizon. The gamma rays from Cygnus X-3 have about the right energy, but should, because they are electromagnetic particles, produce only 1/300 of the µ-mesons observed in cygnon events. No known neutral particle has all the characteristics of the cygnons. The inevitable conclusion is that the cygnon must be a new and previously unknown kind of particle." ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 3/24/2007 4:03:37 AM Subject: [Vo]: A time-varying Electric Field around a Multipole might act as Tachyons if the "legs" are sequenced in the right manner. The electrostatic induction effect from this might also allow lift from a planet or moon, as well as generation of a force field, "cloaking" and "Warp 10" FTL travel. Try this three-point device next Sunday? O O O Fred http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Tachyon.html "Tachyons are a putative class of particles which able to travel faster than the speed of light. Tachyons were first proposed by physicist Arnold Sommerfeld, and named by Gerald Feinberg. The word tachyon derives from the Greek (tachus), meaning "speedy." Tachyons have the strange properties that, when they lose energy, they gain speed. Consequently, when tachyons gain energy, they slow down. The slowest speed possible for tachyons is the speed of light. Tachyons appear to violate causality (the so-called causality problem), since they could be sent to the past under the assumption that the principle of special relativity is a true law of nature, thus generating a real unavoidable time paradox (Maiorino and Rodrigues 1999). Therefore, it seems unavoidable that if tachyons exist, the principle of special relativity must be false, and there exists a unique time order for all observers in the universe independent of their state of motion. Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996). It has been proposed that tachyons could be produced from high-energy particle collisions, and tachyon searches have been undertaken in cosmic rays. Cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere with high energy (some of them with speed almost 99.99% of the speed of light) making several collisions with the molecules in the atmosphere. The particles made by this collision interact with the air, creating even more particles in a phenomenon known as a cosmic ray shower. In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Curious?
 
 
"The source of the cygnons has been traced to an unusual binary star system in the constellation Cygnus. In recent years space-bourne instruments have been able to examine the universe through a new window, the x-ray part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Bright sources of x-rays have been located and catalogged, and it has been found that the constellation Cygnus contains three bright x-rays objects. One of these called Cygnus X-3 is probably the most powerful source of high energy photons in the galaxy and has become the hottest topic in astrophysics today. Cygnus X-3 is on the other side of our galaxy, about 30,000 light-years from Earth. It is a binary star system, probably consisting of a neutron-star supernova remnant orbiting a normal star which feeds it hydrogen. The system has an orbital period of 4.79 hours. That's a remarkably short period: if a neutron star of 1 solar mass were orbiting our sun with that period, its orbit would be less than one solar radius above the sun's surface!! The 4.79 hour period can be used as a sort of "fingerprint" to tag radiation from Cygnus X-3, which should change in strength with this characteristic period. This period has been seen in Cygnus X-3 infrared, visible, x-ray, and gamma-ray emissions. The cygnons in the underground experiments have also been found to fluctuate with the same 4.79 hour period. This is confirming evidence that they come from Cygnus X-3. It also means that they travel at essentially the velocity of light; otherwise a spread of lower velocities straggling out across 30,000 light years would wash out the time variations.

Cygnons events observed with the Fly's Eye have truly enormous kinetic energies: up to 20 million times the mass-energy of a proton at rest, or 20,000 times more energy than particles from even the largest earthbound accelerators. They must have no electric charge because they travel in a straight line path from Cygnus X-3. Their path is not curved by the magnetic field of the galaxy, as the path of a proton or any other charged particle would be. Further, the cygnons are found to make many µ-mesons in their collisions with the atmosphere, suggesting that they are strongly interacting particles (like protons) rather than electromagnetic particles (gamma rays) or weak particles (neutrinos).

The zero charge of the cygnons is intriguing, for all of the known stable neutral particles can be counted on the fingers of one hand with a few fingers left over. The only truly stable neutral particles are photons, neutrinos, and neutral atoms. For good measure we could include the neutron, which is unstable to beta decay with a half life of 10.6 minutes. There are good reasons for eliminating each of these as cygnon candidates. As all good Analog readers know, relativity makes clocks run slower. Neutrons could possibly make it from Cygnus X-3 to Earth before decaying if they travelled so fast that relativistic time dilation slowed their internal clock until 10 minutes of internal neutron time became equivalent to 30,000 years of earth time. But this time dilation factor needs neutrons with 100 times more energy than the most energetic cygnon events which the Fly's Eye has seen.

Neutral atoms can be eliminated because the "empty space" between Earth and Cygnus X-3 is not completely empty. A pipe with a cross section one centimeter square stretching across this distance would contain about 5 grams of interstellar hydrogen. This is several thousand times more matter than required to strip some electrons from any energetic neutral atom and give it a net electrical charge. Neutrinos can be eliminated because they interact with matter too weakly, and also because the detected cygnons show a "horizon effect", diminished counts when Cygnus X-3 drops below the horizon. The gamma rays from Cygnus X-3 have about the right energy, but should, because they are electromagnetic particles, produce only 1/300 of the µ-mesons observed in cygnon events. No known neutral particle has all the characteristics of the cygnons. The inevitable conclusion is that the cygnon must be a new and previously unknown kind of particle."

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/24/2007 4:03:37 AM
Subject: [Vo]:

A time-varying Electric Field around a Multipole might act as Tachyons if the "legs"
are sequenced in the right manner.
 
The electrostatic induction effect from this might also allow lift from a planet or moon,
as well as generation of a force field, "cloaking" and "Warp 10" FTL travel.
 
Try this three-point device next Sunday?            
 
                                            O
 
                                     O          O   
 
Fred
 
 

"Tachyons are a putative class of particles which able to travel faster than the speed of light. Tachyons were first proposed by physicist Arnold Sommerfeld, and named by Gerald Feinberg. The word tachyon derives from the Greek (tachus), meaning "speedy." Tachyons have the strange properties that, when they lose energy, they gain speed. Consequently, when tachyons gain energy, they slow down. The slowest speed possible for tachyons is the speed of light.

Tachyons appear to violate causality (the so-called causality problem), since they could be sent to the past under the assumption that the principle of special relativity is a true law of nature, thus generating a real unavoidable time paradox (Maiorino and Rodrigues 1999). Therefore, it seems unavoidable that if tachyons exist, the principle of special relativity must be false, and there exists a unique time order for all observers in the universe Eric Weisstein's World of Astrono! ! my independent of their state of motion.

Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996).

It has been proposed that tachyons could be produced from high-energy particle collisions, and tachyon searches have been undertaken in cosmic rays. Cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere with high energy (some of them with speed almost 99.99% of the speed of light) making several collisions with the molecules in the atmosphere. The particles made by this collision interact with the air, creating even more particles in a phenomenon known as a cosmic ray shower. In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced."

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="timg1.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: timg1.gif Content-Id: <410-2200736242341347199@13071999> R0lGODlhMQAdALMAAAAAAJmZmXd3d1VVVe7u7jMzM8zMzBEREaqqqoiIiGZmZv///0RERN3d3SIi Iru7uyH5BAEAAAsALAAAAAAxAB0AAAT7cMlJq7046827/2AodsZoYgjwnKzUHEHbCqUsPfVEPMS1 U7nFLihBHABIZO1RQAgUroVC4OhJAghpQnBTCQWCRyI2MQweAcZjfT3UDgjsokEAcBfORQDNkBAc PAxEE1kLCQkUBAd3CwxgFAIFCw93iIsTNI8bCkEBADkMjhSeDwMUD58TUKIadRVUFAwFVhMHVRQJ DmWIAjAaRhUBun4OAgS0f32QkhIDPQQDAGoYCsoUBWFguQoNqr20cwcJCJxABQcYdBcNKy7dEmEN AIgVBoMS6DYChaEeTmQtAgBMEQCKDQ/vyjxIeLChw4cQI0qcSLGixYsYM2rcEAEAOw== ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="astronomy.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: astronomy.gif Content-Id: <184671-22007362423413471910@13071999> R0lGODlhDAAMAKIAAP///9KhBtbOpHJsEO/ozqSDErutcenCPiH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAMAAwAAAM0 CLrc/oCQKCYzIYsyLMBBURzCYChEJh6qgIpZNgyoEMuD+w1sOBQBi2kz0yxKHIGhAnkkAAA7 ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 16:52:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ONq8w3003794; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:52:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ONq6n3003765; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:52:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:52:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:52:01 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <22db03981uvbevj2rvomsuouf4ueju0k1n@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:52:00 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74025 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:26:27 -0400: Hi, >This search string lists all of New Energy Institute videos: > >http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=3D%22new+energy+institute%22&hl=3D= en > >- Jed I watched http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-1214733147725965006&q=3D%22new= +energy+institute%22&hl=3Den and was very disappointed with the sound and with the clips of the = screen. In this video, Pamela became almost inaudible every time she turned her back= to the camera. Steve in future, would it be possible to get your sound pickup by plugging directly into the sound system of the auditorium? Since the = speaker usually carries a microphone, you would be picking up that signal = directly, i.e. by wire, rather than through the air. I was disappointed in the screen = shots, because frequently when Pamela turned toward the screen to point = something out, the camera only caught the right hand side of the screen, thus missing = half the content. That made it totally useless. You need to get the entire screen,= even if only briefly. We the audience, can always click on pause to freeze the= video long enough to read the whole screen, but we do need to see the whole = image. In fact, you could have left the camera pointed at the screen the whole = time. The message is far more important than the messenger. Another thought: These scientists are prepared to spend time and effort = doing a talk for a room full of people ( probably a few hundred at most). You = might consider asking them to do a dedicated rerun just for you, under = circumstances that are ideal for you to record, since the video you create is going on = the web and is likely to be viewed by thousands rather than just the few in that = room. =46urthermore, they themselves can then refer others to the web video, = which saves them time and effort otherwise wasted in lengthy explanations. Since it's a dedicated "performance", they can also review if with you = when it's done, and perhaps redo bits that came out poorly, which you can then edit= in later, resulting in a better overall product. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 18:35:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2P1ZfSK022335; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:35:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2P1Zd19022318; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:35:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:35:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Deuterium analysis Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:35:37 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <9ashv2lsoevc563ve5lj1t74u5beneg69i@4ax.com> <1d7501c766db$2c0f0000$3800a8c0@zothan> <1e7701c76748$57c84f40$3800a8c0@zothan> <1efjv29sshgmemvv22bp83po0skqdm839i@4ax.com> <002901c7679b$985d1f60$3800a8c0@zothan> <165a01c76bd3$510f09c0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <165a01c76bd3$510f09c0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:35:36 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74026 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:09:34 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Sorry to be so obtuse Robin, do you mean (Hy - Hy)+ with one electron = orbiting around? > I think you get it. It's two protons tightly bound by a single shrunken electron, which is thus a Hydrino molecular ion, acting as a nucleus, = with an additional electron in a normal Bohr "ground state" orbit. As near as I can tell it should be chemically virtually indistinguishable= from normal D, and hence should form part of natural heavy water. (Not heavy water created in fission reactors, which is formed by addition= of a real neutron to protium). Because Hydrinos are formed among other places, on the Sun, they should = be carried to the Earth in the Solar wind, some in the form of Hydrino = molecular ions, and when they interact with Oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere, they = can form Faux heavy water, which eventually falls as rain. Faux D can be distinguished from normal D by bombarding it with ionizing radiation with= a per particle energy of at least 3000 eV. This is enough to break the Hydrino molecular ion apart, freeing up the proton which is then easily detected = with SIMS. Since SIMS itself usually uses primary ions with an energy well in = excess of 3000 eV, these should be capable of serving both purposes = concurrently, hence my interest in SIMS results from heavy water experiments. The 3000 eV is actually a bit of a cheat. This is the energy required to = break up a Hydrino molecular ion containing a Hydrino shrunken to level 24, = which is IMO the most interesting, because it's the lowest level still capable of = forming Hydrinohydride according to Mills. However Faux D could exist at any = level of shrinkage, from 2 to at least 120. Hydrinohydride formation is important because it can be an intermediary = in the rapid formation of Hydrino molecules, which in turn are important for = clean fusion see - http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm [snip] BTW I think SIMS usually uses about 20000 eV, which would be enough to = separate a Hydrino molecular ion with shrinkage level 49. If my variant of Mills = theory is correct, then this would imply a radius of the Hydrino of only 22 fm, allowing for very rapid fusion. (A level 24 shrinkage implies a radius of= 92 fm). Note that muon catalyzed fusion happens at a distance of Bohr radius / = 207 =3D 256 fm, and at that distance it is already blindingly fast, with up to 150 = reactions being catalyzed during the lifetime of the muon (on average 2.2 micro = seconds), and this takes into account the migration time of the muon from one atom = to the next, as well as the actual time for fusion to occur. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 19:14:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2P2E3oc003660; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:14:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2P2E2fA003649; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:14:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c76e83$3c53e250$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <46058190.7090806@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:13:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <_JVFOB.A.54.qrdBGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74027 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The lastest word on cold fusion Status: O X-Status: Howdy Ed, Bob Parks is no longer important. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 21:41:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2P4f031029649; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:41:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2P4evsB029620; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:40:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:40:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070324202103.06368fb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:43:43 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well In-Reply-To: <22db03981uvbevj2rvomsuouf4ueju0k1n@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74028 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:52 AM 3/25/2007 +1000, you wrote: >In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:26:27 -0400: >Hi, > >This search string lists all of New Energy Institute videos: > > > >http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22new+energy+institute%22&hl=en > > > >- Jed >I watched >http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1214733147725965006&q=%22new+energy+institute%22&hl=en >and was very disappointed with the sound and with the clips of the screen. In >this video, Pamela became almost inaudible every time she turned her back >to the >camera. Steve in future, would it be possible to get your sound pickup by >plugging directly into the sound system of the auditorium? Since the speaker >usually carries a microphone, you would be picking up that signal >directly, i.e. >by wire, rather than through the air. I was disappointed in the screen shots, >because frequently when Pamela turned toward the screen to point something >out, >the camera only caught the right hand side of the screen, thus missing >half the >content. That made it totally useless. You need to get the entire screen, even >if only briefly. We the audience, can always click on pause to freeze the >video >long enough to read the whole screen, but we do need to see the whole image. >In fact, you could have left the camera pointed at the screen the whole time. >The message is far more important than the messenger. > >Another thought: These scientists are prepared to spend time and effort >doing a >talk for a room full of people ( probably a few hundred at most). You might >consider asking them to do a dedicated rerun just for you, under circumstances >that are ideal for you to record, since the video you create is going on >the web >and is likely to be viewed by thousands rather than just the few in that room. >Furthermore, they themselves can then refer others to the web video, which >saves >them time and effort otherwise wasted in lengthy explanations. >Since it's a dedicated "performance", they can also review if with you >when it's >done, and perhaps redo bits that came out poorly, which you can then edit in >later, resulting in a better overall product. >Regards, Robin, You tell me very little that I don't already know. I almost considered not even doing the post-production and posting of Pam's video for the very reasons you state. But I decided to post it anyway, anticipating that at least some people would complain. I do the best I can sir, and I wear too many hats as it is. I'm glad the videos are of such interest that you would want to hear the speakers better. I didn't worry to much about the screen because I figured I could add screen shots in post-production later. I can still do this, but I don't have the time. If you would like to underwrite the costs, I can hire a professional to do this - for you and the rest of the public's benefit. I have a shotgun mike but forgot to pack it. It would have helped with Pam's audio somewhat, but she always speaks quietly. Amping that up is difficult under all configurations. I also have a wireless mike but chose not to carry it. Do you have any idea how much of a f*** hassle it is to do air travel in the U.S. with electronics? The best way do get better production would be to hire a local professional crew. Perhaps you would like to provide the funds for that? If so, I can assure you fully-professional videos in the future. If this is a consideration for you, please move quickly because ACS is this coming Thursday. As far as a dedicated rerun? Not even a question. For one, they are not eager for me to film them any more than you would be eager for me to film you brushing your teeth. This is not a show for them. Two, even if they were willing, I have filmed speakers before in such dry runs, and it just does not come out the same as when they are speaking to a live audience. Three, it would be "staged" and that's not cool. Four, I'd have to rent a room for a whole other day to setup the "studio," and get the speakers to be available on another day, which means an extra day of flights, hotels. Sorry, I really like to hear helpful critique, but the idea of staging a rerun doesn't fly. Any other ideas? Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 24 22:43:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2P5h02x026529; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:43:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2P5gxi0026513; Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:42:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:42:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46060BD0.2050602@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:42:40 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The lastest word on cold fusion References: <46058190.7090806@ix.netcom.com> <001701c76e83$3c53e250$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001701c76e83$3c53e250$c905a8c0@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74029 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: > Howdy Ed, > > Bob Parks is no longer important. > > Richard Important to whom? He's still the spokesman for the physics establishment, and a major pain in the ass for anyone attempting to get funding for research in areas ranging from physics to medicine. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 01:47:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2P8ljad003738; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:47:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2P8lgxH003709; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:47:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:47:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:47:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9ddc03ht10uanv90h5hqc9fauo9euichie@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> <22db03981uvbevj2rvomsuouf4ueju0k1n@4ax.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20070324202103.06368fb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20070324202103.06368fb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:47:40 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74030 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Steven Krivit's message of Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:43:43 -0800: Hi Steve, [snip] >>Steve in future, would it be possible to get your sound pickup by >>plugging directly into the sound system of the auditorium? [snip] >Robin, > >You tell me very little that I don't already know. I almost considered = not=20 >even doing the post-production and posting of Pam's video for the very=20 >reasons you state. But I decided to post it anyway, anticipating that at= =20 >least some people would complain. I do the best I can sir, and I wear = too=20 >many hats as it is. I'm glad the videos are of such interest that you = would=20 >want to hear the speakers better. I didn't worry to much about the = screen=20 >because I figured I could add screen shots in post-production later. I = can=20 >still do this, but I don't have the time. If you would like to = underwrite=20 >the costs, I can hire a professional to do this - for you and the rest = of=20 >the public's benefit. > >I have a shotgun mike but forgot to pack it. It would have helped with=20 >Pam's audio somewhat, but she always speaks quietly. Amping that up is=20 >difficult under all configurations. I also have a wireless mike but = chose=20 >not to carry it. Do you have any idea how much of a f*** hassle it is to= do=20 >air travel in the U.S. with electronics? You haven't answered my question about plugging into the sound system = that the mike she wears is connected to. I suggest this primarily because it has the best cost/benefit ratio (zero= cost; huge benefit). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 03:01:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PA1Gti010999; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:01:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PA1BSw010963; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:01:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:01:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aliens Claim Sir Branson's Prize Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:53:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <20ec0398lkqkj16j8v0c3ep8mgb5auo4u3@4ax.com> References: <45E7315F.4050307@pobox.com> <200703032328.13542.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200703032328.13542.rockcast@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:53:48 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <4h2_V.A.NrC.nhkBGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74031 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Sitting Bear's message of Sat, 03 Mar 2007 23:28:13 -0500: Hi, [snip] >exploration. Have we been told to stay out of space? > >Standing Bear As far as interstellar travel is concerned, probably. The Solar system is= ours to play with. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 04:14:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PBEWf4006806; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 04:14:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PBEIqK006749; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 04:14:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 04:14:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=Mx8OLt33AnatidQB8TuYk6GfCPdgklvgTTsV8b7czxOCaWzqzkEdHjgsSzVK/HvSIQKgsg3e3j2LjpHW+7a26hVS15JgU+dYfcgVklCwEps8mizkAh/6UM3VoAwcrvqI+BBEaUvCLGl03DyluxGG4f6jXD1zmBzxaKWhh87TZ+c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=lc1HOZw/fo2eLlIYPunYcGdT8eh+HzLOB2WLoulwXGkL0Hthj87vqXi1QcGiyWxkrEa+jwuO1atS6zk0jiZUj4idqW4ihMD30llFGe7VtR+zpztG4341u14p1vbonuGJrc5IOvXnkmDxspqa2cvsvHgQnCvdMi8uXqlF7dnJru8= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 06:14:15 -0500 From: "john herman" To: "Stiffler Scientific" Cc: EnergyLab@earthlink.net, "hermajohn@gmail.com" , "Kyle R. Mcallister" , vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_291848_4139318.1174821255703" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74032 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Applied Sciences Group CAN YOU???? Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_291848_4139318.1174821255703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Stiffler, I an when you wish to supply even general real world information... as opposed to spotty.... I will be most happy to TRY to be a part. Please let me know what I would """submit""" to such a question series... when YOU do not, or can not put the first foot forward. I try NOT to pre judge anyone.... but, in the respect of genuine peer to peer communications, such as I might see in the many national and international conferences and forums I have attended and presented papers before: Try to offer even five real world peer reviewed class papers or pre publication type papers, where, for example, amps and volts, or mass-weight-momentum, or the like are presented.... Unless you can not, or will not.... and If not...???? Why not??? You put one foot forward, and I will be happy to respond 3 fold. JOHS On 3/14/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > Thank you for requesting admission to the Stiffler Scientific Closed > Research Group. > > If you have not already read the Membership and Project Rules, Please do > so > at www.stifflerscientific.com/rules.asp > > The following information is required for consideration for admission. > Please answer on the question line and when complete send the entire > content > to drstiffler@earthlink.net. > > 1) Your First Name: > > 2) Your Last Name: > > 3) Your Preferred Email Address: > > 4) Your Academic Level: > > 5) Your Primary Field of Research: > > 6) Employed or Retired: > > 7) Do you have access to a laboratory or research facility in which you > can > perform experiments? (Yes - No): > > 8) Why are you interested in the work going on at Stiffler Scientific? > > > > > The following items will be submitted to the group for consideration of > your > membership; 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. No personal information is made available > unless specifically authorized under the 'Membership Rules'. > > Once approved you will receive a UserName and Password for entry into the > closed system. > > If you are denied entry by the group, you will be sent the reason the > group > presented for the denial. > > Thank you for the request and hope to welcome you to the group soon. > > Ronald Stiffler, D.Sc > Stiffler Scientific > > ------=_Part_291848_4139318.1174821255703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
 
 Dear Stiffler,
 
       I an when you wish to supply even general real world information... as opposed to spotty.... I will be most happy to TRY to be a part.
 
     Please let me know what I would """submit""" to such a question series... when YOU
 do not,  or can not put the first foot forward.
 
     I try NOT to pre judge anyone.... but, in the respect of genuine peer to peer communications, such as I might see in the many national and international conferences and forums I have attended and presented papers before:
 
         Try to offer even five real world peer reviewed class papers or pre publication type papers, where, for example, amps and volts, or mass-weight-momentum, or the like are presented....
 
         Unless you can not, or will not....
 and If not...????  Why not???
 
           You put one foot forward, and I will be happy to respond 3 fold.
 
         JOHS 
 
On 3/14/07, Stiffler Scientific <stifflerscientific@earthlink.net> wrote:
Thank you for requesting admission to the Stiffler Scientific Closed
Research Group.

If you have not already read the Membership and Project Rules, Please do so
at www.stifflerscientific.com/rules.asp

The following information is required for consideration for admission.
Please answer on the question line and when complete send the entire content
to drstiffler@earthlink.net.

1) Your First Name:

2) Your Last Name:

3) Your Preferred Email Address:

4) Your Academic Level:

5) Your Primary Field of Research:

6) Employed or Retired:

7) Do you have access to a laboratory or research facility in which you can
perform experiments? (Yes - No):

8) Why are you interested in the work going on at Stiffler Scientific?




The following items will be submitted to the group for consideration of your
membership; 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. No personal information is made available
unless specifically authorized under the 'Membership Rules'.

Once approved you will receive a UserName and Password for entry into the
closed system.

If you are denied entry by the group, you will be sent the reason the group
presented for the denial.

Thank you for the request and hope to welcome you to the group soon.

Ronald Stiffler, D.Sc
Stiffler Scientific


------=_Part_291848_4139318.1174821255703-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 04:27:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PBRUVQ013715; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 04:27:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PBRTX7013702; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 04:27:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 04:27:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=H9Eb48QHeX6YGnlsB952D6ZKN3Nf93iuh8+hiINxvhOOXcurfAgMd12524XloZzp; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <4196-220073025112716818@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Are Fast Neutrons Tachyons? Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 05:27:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940314989d6ff64bea3643cfa22bebbbac7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.110 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74033 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Getting the large numbers straight. Peta (P eV) and Exa (E eV). http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/large.html http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/thecygnusmystery_cygnusx3.htm "3 Characteristics of Cygnet Primaries Between 1983 and 30 October 1985 various ground-based air shower arrays, including Kiel (Samorski and Stamm, 1983a, 1983b) and Fly's Eye (the latter from 1981 through till 1988) reported extensive air showers with the direction and periodicity of Cygnus X-3 (See Marshak et al, 1985; Cassiday et al, 1989). In Kiel's case, particles were detected in the 1016 eV (10 Peta-electron volt eV) range (initially assumed to be gamma-rays). This was later confirmed (Lloyd-Evans et al, 1983) with the pulse being narrow (duty cycle 2%) and occurring at a phase 0.25 after the X-ray maximum. Thus it was concluded that Cygnus X-3 accelerated particles to at least 1016 eV, and that if these were electrons, then protons might reach a higher level still (Hillas, 1984). Indeed, at Kiel the EAS reached energies of > 1018 eV (Cassiday et al, 1989; Sommer and Elbert, 1990)." "Crucially, Sommers and Elbert go on to state that 'although free neutrons decay with a mean proper lifetime of 898 seconds', time dilation allows some neutrons at these energies to travel the distance from Cyg X-3. On this basis, the energy threshold (0.5 EeV) {or 0.5E18 eV} for the data used in the Fly's Eye analysis suggests that the reported increased muon flux could be neutrons, even though the collaboration was at the time unable to distinguish between a neutron-initiated shower and a gamma-ray shower (Sommers and Elbert, 1989). In final conclusion, they stated that 'Cyg X-3 is a strong source of EeV cosmic rays'. The significance of Sommers and Elbert's proposal is that with a relativistic linear acceleration through jet production, the view that cygnets are exotic strange quark particles becomes unnecessary. The neutral particles might indeed be neutrons, reliant on a new model based upon synchrotron radiation loss through relativistic flow." Neutron rest energy 938E6 eV (electron volts) Cygnus X-3 distance ~30,000 light years = ~1.0E12 light-seconds across our Galaxy, thus time dilation "Gamma" = Kinetic Energy (~1.0E18eV) / Rest Energy (~1.0E9 eV) = 1.0^9 time dilation, meaning that the approximate 12 to 15 minute 720-900 second neutron lifetime would let it reach the earth from Cygnus X-3 in 12 to 15 minutes! On the Other Hand, is the ejected Neutron turned into a TACHYON? http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Tachyon.html "Tachyons are a putative class of particles which able to travel faster than the speed of light. Tachyons were first proposed by physicist Arnold Sommerfeld, and named by Gerald Feinberg. The word tachyon derives from the Greek (tachus), meaning "speedy." Tachyons have the strange properties that, when they lose energy, they gain speed. Consequently, when tachyons gain energy, they slow down. The slowest speed possible for tachyons is the speed of light. Tachyons appear to violate causality (the so-called causality problem), since they could be sent to the past under the assumption that the principle of special relativity is a true law of nature, thus generating a real unavoidable time paradox (Maiorino and Rodrigues 1999). Therefore, it seems unavoidable that if tachyons exist, the principle of special relativity must be false, and there exists a unique time order for all observers in the universe independent of their state of motion. Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996). It has been proposed that tachyons could be produced from high-energy particle collisions, and tachyon searches have been undertaken in cosmic rays. Cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere with high energy (some of them with speed almost 99.99% of the speed of light) making several collisions with the molecules in the atmosphere. The particles made by this collision interact with the air, creating even more particles in a phenomenon known as a cosmic ray shower. In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Getting the large numbers straight. Peta (P eV) and Exa (E eV).
 
 
 
 
"3 Characteristics of Cygnet Primaries
Between 1983 and 30 October 1985 various ground-based air shower arrays, including Kiel (Samorski and Stamm, 1983a, 1983b) and Fly's Eye (the latter from 1981 through till 1988) reported extensive air showers with the direction and periodicity of Cygnus X-3 (See Marshak et al, 1985; Cassiday et al, 1989). In Kiel's case, particles were detected in the 1016 eV (10 Peta-electron volt eV) range (initially assumed to be gamma-rays). This was later confirmed (Lloyd-Evans et al, 1983) with the pulse being narrow (duty cycle 2%) and occurring at a phase 0.25 after the X-ray maximum. Thus it was concluded that Cygnus X-3 accelerated particles to at least 1016 eV, and that if these were electrons, then protons might reach a higher level still (Hillas, 1984). Indeed, at Kiel the EAS reached energies of > 1018 eV (Cassiday et al, 1989; Sommer and Elbert, 1990)."
 
"Crucially, Sommers and Elbert go on to state that 'although free neutrons decay with a mean proper lifetime of 898 seconds', time dilation allows some neutrons at these energies to travel the distance from Cyg X-3. On this basis, the energy threshold (0.5 EeV) {or 0.5E18 eV} for the data used in the Fly's Eye analysis suggests that the reported increased muon flux could be neutrons, even though the collaboration was at the time unable to distinguish between a neutron-initiated shower and a gamma-ray shower (Sommers and Elbert, 1989). In final conclusion, they stated that 'Cyg X-3 is a strong source of EeV cosmic rays'.
The significance of Sommers and Elbert's proposal is that with a relativistic linear acceleration through jet production, the view that cygnets are exotic strange quark particles becomes unnecessary. The neutral particles might indeed be neutrons, reliant on a new model based upon synchrotron radiation loss through relativistic flow."
 
Neutron rest energy 938E6  eV (electron volts)
 
Cygnus X-3 distance ~30,000 light years = ~1.0E12 light-seconds across our Galaxy,
thus time dilation "Gamma" = Kinetic Energy (~1.0E18eV) / Rest Energy (~1.0E9 eV)
 = 1.0^9 time dilation, meaning that the approximate 12 to 15 minute 720-900 second
neutron lifetime would let it reach the earth from Cygnus X-3 in 12 to 15 minutes!
 
On the Other Hand, is the ejected Neutron turned into a TACHYON?
 
 

"Tachyons are a putative class of particles which able to travel faster than the speed of light. Tachyons were first proposed by physicist Arnold Sommerfeld, and named by Gerald Feinberg. The word tachyon derives from the Greek (tachus), meaning "speedy." Tachyons have the strange properties that, when they lose energy, they gain speed. Consequently, when tachyons gain energy, they slow down. The slowest speed possible for tachyons is the speed of light.

Tachyons appear to violate causality (the so-called causality problem), since they could be sent to the past under the assumption that the principle of special relativity is a true law of nature, thus generating a real unavoidable time paradox (Maiorino and Rodrigues 1999). Therefore, it seems unavoidable that if tachyons exist, the principle of special relativity must be false, and there exists a unique time order for all observers in the universe Eric Weisstein's World of Astrono! ! my independent of their state of motion.

Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996).

It has been proposed that tachyons could be produced from high-energy particle collisions, and tachyon searches have been undertaken in cosmic rays. Cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere with high energy (some of them with speed almost 99.99% of the speed of light) making several collisions with the molecules in the atmosphere. The particles made by this collision interact with the air, creating even more particles in a phenomenon known as a cosmic ray shower. In 1973, using a large collection of particle detectors, Philip Crough and Roger Clay identified a putative superluminal particle in an air shower, although this result has never been reproduced."  

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 05:31:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PCUquf014996; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 05:30:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PCUn4o014977; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 05:30:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 05:30:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c76ed9$68047670$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <46058190.7090806@ix.netcom.com> <001701c76e83$3c53e250$c905a8c0@xptower> <46060BD0.2050602@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The lastest word on cold fusion Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:30:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74034 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Bob Parks is no longer important. > > Richard >Thomas wrote.. establishment, and a major pain in the ass for anyone attempting to get >funding for research in areas ranging from physics to medicine. Howdy Thomas, One must put Parks in context. He " exposed himself". This can happen as Cramer can now attest.. see below article.Notice the lawyer for Ropes states that" NOT ALL HEDGE FUNDS"... as if having a few around don't matter. The scientific community is supposed to be "scientific" and not a "hedge fund" run operation. Richard Published on the web today.... Cramer said some tactics are "blatantly illegal" but sometimes essential for poorly performing hedge funds. Cramer said if a market participant wanted to get shares of a company like Research in Motion lower, then he should first get investors "talking about it as if there is something wrong with RIMM. Then you call the (Wall Street) Journal and get the bozo reporter in Research in Motion and you would feed that (rival) Palm's (PALM, news, msgs) got a killer it's going to give away," he said. "These are all the things that you must do on a day like today and if you're not doing it, maybe you shouldn't be in the game. "It might cost me $15 million or $20 million to knock RIMM down but it would be fabulous because it would beleaguer all the moron longs who are also keying on Research in Motion," Cramer said. He also said the Securities and Exchange Commission does not understand some illegal activity. Challenging financial regulators? Hedge fund lawyer Ron Geffner of Sadis & Goldberg called the interview a "somewhat surprising confession to make publicly, which definitely invites suspicion by regulators." "Whether he violated the law is unclear," Geffner said. "That is dependent on his trading records. But it's clear that he seems to be challenging regulators to come and examine him." A spokesman for the SEC declined to comment on whether the agency is looking at Cramer's comments. A decade ago Cramer faced an SEC investigation over a column he wrote for SmartMoney magazine that touted four stocks without disclosing his holdings in them. He was eventually cleared of wrongdoing, according to news reports. Other legal experts criticized Cramer's comments for suggesting that stock manipulation is widespread among the growing legions of hedge funds, which are investment vehicles that typically trade much more actively and use more complex strategies than mutual funds. "This makes it sound like everyone is doing it, and the reality is that most hedge funds are not engaged in this kind of manipulative behavior," said Laurel FitzPatrick, a hedge fund lawyer with Ropes & Gray. Cramer could not be reached for comment following calls to both TheStreet.com and CNBC. Spokespeople for CNBC and TheStreet.com were unavailable for comment. Who cares about the fundamentals?" he said. "The great thing about the market is that it has nothing to do with the actual stocks." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 07:05:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PE4qr4031733; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:04:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PE4nrq031718; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:04:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:04:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=GGS43ATwZmctt0HGvTEr9neRJyKBtn05AUSB9XbOLXpNhV5ryeCymTJB6LbscvXt; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Applied Sciences Group CAN YOU???? Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:04:06 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C76EBC.8AC6A650" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26090b06a54f09186065a47b6e677ee201b593caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74035 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C76EBC.8AC6A650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John! A very succinct yet somewhat cryptic posting here. What is it about? If its about your request to join my closed research site, then as shown below you received an email of the requirements for consideration. If you did or do not like the requirements then why get Mcallister and vortex involved? If this is the intent of the posting, 'to complain about the requirements' then either forget it or join and lobby to get it changed. Our closed system is working well and serving the intended purpose, 1) No ego building and self stroking. 2) No misdirection or reputation destruction. 3) Real work getting done, without excess and meaningless rhetoric. I must say in addition John that we have indeed turned away or set aside a number of people that wanted access, fit is important. You want peer review, well how do you get that when you are in the exploration stages? We indent to release all information (good or bad) upon project completion and doubt that we will be able to get peer review on on it because it is not currently accepted by 'The Peers'. Having said that John, why did you not address the issue in private mail? Or has vortex now become the 'You Tube' of all issues, good bad or indifferent? -----Original Message----- From: john herman [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 5:14 AM To: Stiffler Scientific Cc: EnergyLab@earthlink.net; hermajohn@gmail.com; Kyle R. Mcallister; vortex-l Subject: [Vo]: Applied Sciences Group CAN YOU???? Dear Stiffler, I an when you wish to supply even general real world information... as opposed to spotty.... I will be most happy to TRY to be a part. Please let me know what I would """submit""" to such a question series... when YOU do not, or can not put the first foot forward. I try NOT to pre judge anyone.... but, in the respect of genuine peer to peer communications, such as I might see in the many national and international conferences and forums I have attended and presented papers before: Try to offer even five real world peer reviewed class papers or pre publication type papers, where, for example, amps and volts, or mass-weight-momentum, or the like are presented.... Unless you can not, or will not.... and If not...???? Why not??? You put one foot forward, and I will be happy to respond 3 fold. JOHS On 3/14/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: Thank you for requesting admission to the Stiffler Scientific Closed Research Group. If you have not already read the Membership and Project Rules, Please do so at www.stifflerscientific.com/rules.asp The following information is required for consideration for admission. Please answer on the question line and when complete send the entire content to drstiffler@earthlink.net. 1) Your First Name: 2) Your Last Name: 3) Your Preferred Email Address: 4) Your Academic Level: 5) Your Primary Field of Research: 6) Employed or Retired: 7) Do you have access to a laboratory or research facility in which you can perform experiments? (Yes - No): 8) Why are you interested in the work going on at Stiffler Scientific? The following items will be submitted to the group for consideration of your membership; 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. No personal information is made available unless specifically authorized under the 'Membership Rules'. Once approved you will receive a UserName and Password for entry into the closed system. If you are denied entry by the group, you will be sent the reason the group presented for the denial. Thank you for the request and hope to welcome you to the group soon. Ronald Stiffler, D.Sc Stiffler Scientific ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C76EBC.8AC6A650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John!
 
A very=20 succinct yet somewhat cryptic posting here.
 
What=20 is it about?
 
If its=20 about your request to join my closed research site, then as shown below = you=20 received an email of the requirements for consideration. If you did or = do not=20 like the requirements then why get Mcallister and vortex involved? If = this is=20 the intent of the posting, 'to complain about the requirements' then = either=20 forget it or join and lobby to get it changed.
 
Our=20 closed system is working well and serving the intended purpose, 1) No = ego=20 building and self stroking. 2) No misdirection or reputation = destruction. 3)=20 Real work getting done, without excess and meaningless=20 rhetoric.
 
I must=20 say in addition John that we have indeed turned away or set aside a = number=20 of people that wanted access, fit is important.
 
You=20 want peer review, well how do you get that when you are in the = exploration=20 stages? We indent to release all information (good or bad) upon project=20 completion and doubt that we will be able to get peer review on on it = because it=20 is not currently accepted by 'The Peers'.
 
Having=20 said that John, why did you not address the issue in private mail? Or = has vortex=20 now become the 'You Tube' of all issues, good bad or=20 indifferent?
-----Original Message-----
From: john herman=20 [mailto:hermajohn@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 = 5:14=20 AM
To: Stiffler Scientific
Cc: = EnergyLab@earthlink.net;=20 hermajohn@gmail.com; Kyle R. Mcallister; vortex-l
Subject: = [Vo]:=20 Applied Sciences Group CAN YOU????

 
 
 Dear Stiffler,
 
       I an when you wish to supply = even=20 general real world information... as opposed to spotty.... I will be = most=20 happy to TRY to be a part.
 
     Please let me know what I would = """submit""" to=20 such a question series... when YOU
 do not,  or can not = put the=20 first foot forward.
 
     I try NOT to pre judge anyone.... but, = in the=20 respect of genuine peer to peer communications, such as I might see in = the=20 many national and international conferences and forums I have attended = and=20 presented papers before:
 
         Try to offer = even five=20 real world peer reviewed class papers or pre publication type papers, = where,=20 for example, amps and volts, or mass-weight-momentum, or the like are=20 presented....
 
         Unless you can = not, or=20 will not....
 and If not...????  Why not???
 
           You = put one=20 foot forward, and I will be happy to respond 3 fold.
 
        =20 JOHS 
 
On 3/14/07, Stiffler=20 Scientific <stifflerscientific@earth= link.net>=20 wrote:=20
Thank=20 you for requesting admission to the Stiffler Scientific = Closed
Research=20 Group.

If you have not already read the Membership and = Project Rules,=20 Please do so
at www.stifflerscientif= ic.com/rules.asp

The=20 following information is required for consideration for = admission.
Please=20 answer on the question line and when complete send the entire = content
to=20 drstiffler@earthlink.net.
1)=20 Your First Name:

2) Your Last Name:

3) Your Preferred = Email=20 Address:

4) Your Academic Level:

5) Your Primary Field = of=20 Research:

6) Employed or Retired:

7) Do you have = access to a=20 laboratory or research facility in which you can
perform = experiments?=20 (Yes - No):

8) Why are you interested in the work going on at = Stiffler Scientific?




The following items will be = submitted to the group for consideration of your
membership; 4, = 5, 6, 7=20 and 8. No personal information is made available
unless = specifically=20 authorized under the 'Membership Rules'.

Once approved you = will=20 receive a UserName and Password for entry into the
closed=20 system.

If you are denied entry by the group, you will be = sent the=20 reason the group
presented for the denial.

Thank you for = the=20 request and hope to welcome you to the group soon.

Ronald = Stiffler,=20 D.Sc
Stiffler=20 Scientific


------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C76EBC.8AC6A650-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 08:24:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PFObYh013681; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:24:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PFOVMY013647; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:24:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:24:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DB1RfeJ7LMHD2rWtoQb263uVnuoI27zvhORuL29g+1K3AO51qKSpcwFnikuDU7+BERWbCoSLoNeYNfmk7hJDJbOeRAS1eQPde03fFUbTDkKFWu3A1a0P6cFhp3gTYR5BJk7PfX6OMiis9FZGXX9FOLgBJGGEtWiVgXq9s0oiTvU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ASHwaTWrq9FP9f34+fHY8L4Bky7T6GMnPffSfF0pVEZXHE/v1c41y7F8rlvwlsW6q9NRqwSWgJdElVjNyOSirn++d75Urbu4Y9ORGTuSFVJd49EX5pU+no63mxlwxaAgnwg14EjaHVtb8PbCVxvZQtZYSeJqEa+XexIRy9bQMA8= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:24:30 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20070324202103.06368fb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> <22db03981uvbevj2rvomsuouf4ueju0k1n@4ax.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20070324202103.06368fb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> Resent-Message-ID: <56q7FB.A.KVD.vQpBGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74036 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/24/07, Steven Krivit wrote: > I have a shotgun mike but forgot to pack it. It would have helped with > Pam's audio somewhat, but she always speaks quietly. Amping that up is > difficult under all configurations. I also have a wireless mike but chose > not to carry it. Do you have any idea how much of a f*** hassle it is to do > air travel in the U.S. with electronics? It was a bitch even before 9/11. I used to have lug around a spectrum analyzer when I was doing satellite work. I always pre-shipped my stuff to the hotel. They will usually hold it for your arrival at no cost. Be sure to insure it! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 08:25:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PFPRKm013981; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:25:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PFPQ80013959; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:25:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:25:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TJaIVZrvrp3NCPp3Zj7f1758/G+xhiEPQk8WWJKhW9VEQLRxpqtSTa9cZtsjzKWJu4qk8YM1Fji+2cfM3+DFSQhZ6GlsIrPloQr1Ybnnb0Ooo3cpNrtEcb58jBTG8kExy/ksd18+7V3hr1F4re5I8fJ1Or64gxAzruWupg3BMok= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MhFaK9JO8tpRB+/1RDbc8kwxjBRdNxw0nwmQqxge1U9vzGZJmBL9EmD5YHVRjJjhyJYBvvK2QoKLW4xPgWuY+zSERRBsOxqRJTrDpz+AWOJGBZJdQZQj5kJahSHsYNqJMU40kW45KjO82YpV1sCUOicsuKX+AzYTFQWhAr/UPy8= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:25:24 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Aliens Claim Sir Branson's Prize In-Reply-To: <20ec0398lkqkj16j8v0c3ep8mgb5auo4u3@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45E7315F.4050307@pobox.com> <200703032328.13542.rockcast@earthlink.net> <20ec0398lkqkj16j8v0c3ep8mgb5auo4u3@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74037 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/25/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > As far as interstellar travel is concerned, probably. The Solar system is ours > to play with. Except for Europa. "Make no attempt to land there." :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 09:20:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PGKpAV002961; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:20:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PGKkYW002925; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:20:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:20:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bpXOphLrm0skR67cAwJRZ+G6QD7cmkLSf3oWMr20ufTqzNAJ9TvRorwD13wLU7xgpCZXDY5nhUdQRWpOjmez2ahNI02Vqa7tR+Hdwc5atWaOxYgQQUbPtASyl4rvQXuclpkZQAKU/p9snwJ+2XQ/drJRPiH4C+vrr2Z2YQHFIuA= ; X-YMail-OSG: SgLUm10VM1mYJjJX3JrzEkZvHp0bJqqqAY0nlT9cLm0F6bI_n1JYb7o6cB4eFKR91M8._5q1cI_FL8D8OFsZ92OWK6_gJ0XGVfQEtpNSzR4NHM_76iSS432M.V1N8E39xguD2rVzTrCrUwktgC1_F2BW0A-- Message-ID: <4606A157.2000302@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:20:39 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frederick Sparber CC: vortex-l References: <4196-220073025112716818@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <4196-220073025112716818@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <7hZboD.A.gt.eFqBGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74038 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: Fred, At one time, the hydrino --travelling at near c fit the properties of=20 the Cynet better than most hypothetical particles. Now it would be interesting to look at a proton bound with two=20 fractionally charged electrons -- a.k.a. the old notion of Frederick=20 Sparber called: ta-da: the 'light lepton'. For the fractionally charged (1/2 normal charge) electron to be 'light'=20 we are back to the issue of mass wrt charge. In pursuit of 'the truth' (or at least any glimmer of same) and as one=20 who does not mind dredging up, and re-polishing, old Vo posts... here is = yet another "Swan song" so to speak. This 'dark subject matter', as it turns out, is a pun-play-segue not to be missed.... especially, as I have handy one of several on the subject of "cosmic hydrinos" =2E... not to mention a good chuckle to start off your Sunday morning... if you should happen to be a movie fan of the late comedienne, Madeline Kahn, and are a bit of a Mutterspracher: The hydrino may be a good candidate for the extraordinary but once well-known cosmic particle, formerly known as the "Cygnon," now known as the "Cygnet" (as the editors of Physical Review have decreed). But did their decree have the side-effect being as unwittingly confusing this extraordinary particle with the enormous Schwannstecker ;-) . This particle was a "hot" cosmology and physics topic in the mid-80s and might have faded from view, were it not for the elephantine memory of the internet. It is so extraordinary that 90% of physicists do not have a clue about it, even today - twenty years later. When the "fat lady" sings (not Madeline, please) and Dr. Mills finally proves the reality of the hydrino (or not), this proof might also end up being the swan-song of this other old-score mystery. The following is a little bit light-hearted, but not entirely half-hearted reminiscence of an unfinished chapter in particle physics and cosmology. Is it even remotely possible that the Cygnet can be identified as a hydrino ?? one that has shrunken far below ground state (1/137) and then been accelerated to almost lightspeed... or weirder yet, if one accepts the reality of the hydrino, but not necessarily the full reach of Mills' GUT/CQM, that in some remote cosmic furnace the hydrino can be built from the ground up, rather than forming later from top down? This might happen via two fractionally charged electrons which make the Cygnet neutral. Some of the following has been paraphrased from an interesting copyrighted piece: with further string theory analysis from Frederick Sparber. Another reference is "Cygnons" M. M. Waldrop, Science 228, 1298 (1985) Mt. Blanc is the largest mountain in the Alps, and through it goes a tunnel which connects France with Italy. In a side room near the tunnel midpoint, normally in total darkness, resides a complex instrument containing many photomultiplier tubes, inappropriately named NUSEX, which was designed to observe the predicted decay of the proton. OK, maybe it is an appropriate name, if one happens to be the grad student stuck in there for weeks on end just to keep things plugged in. Although NUSEX saw no proton decays (another great theory bites the dust) and has now been upgraded for neutrino detection, for a decade or more it did detect something very strange and very powerful coming from the direction of the constellation Cygnus, the Swan. This remarkable particle has been dubbed the cygnon, or cygnet. It is hadron-like, meaning it looks like its got a few quarks of its own. Cygnets have truly enormous kinetic energy: thousands of times more than particles from the largest earthly accelerators. Gamma rays from Cygnus have the right energy, but produce only 1/300 of the =B5-mesons observed in cygnon events. Cygnets must have no electric charge because they travel in a straight bee-line path which is not curved by the magnetic field of the galaxy. Because cygnets create so many =B5-mesons in the atmosphere, it is likely that they are strongly interacting particles (like protons) rather than photons or neutrinos. The problem with cygnets being hadrons is they go too fast. Cygnus X-3 is a binary star system on the other side of our galaxy, with a neutron-star orbiting a normal star which feeds it hydrogen. The system has an orbital period of only 4.79 hours. The period can be used as a sort of "fingerprint" to tag radiation from Cygnus, which should change with this characteristic period - and indeed the cygnets do fluctuate on exactly the same 4.79 hour period. Not only is this confirming evidence of where they come from, it also means that they travel at essentially the speed of light; otherwise a large spread of lower speeds would wash out the time variations. But the variations are distinct and that just can't be correct, can it? To summarize the important properties of the Cygnet. (1) It is has no electric charge (and most verities of neutral atoms can be eliminated because the "empty space" between Earth and Cygnus contains enough interstellar hydrogen to strip electrons from energetic neutral atoms, but possibly not from highly shrunken hydrinos). (2) it has a rest mass that has been roughly estimated to be somewhere about 1/20 of a proton mass - but that estimate may be low as it was made working backwards on assumptions of just how close to light speed any such particle could travel (3) it is a strongly interacting particle; and (4) It must be stable or have a fairly long half-life. The variants of particle theory provide us with a menagerie of predicted but largely unobserved particles: Higgs bosons, axions, gravitinos, monopoles, squarks, etc. but so far as I know, even R. Mills hasn't ventured to cast the Cygnet particle as a highly shrunken hydrino. But he's probably got a few other pressing problems. The string circle particle model treats a proton as two "up or positive (+q) quarks" and one "down or negative (-q) quark" energy circles with a radius R =3D kq2/E which each originally contained 1/2 of the energy of the progenitor photon going in a circle at velocity c with a wavelength "lambda" of 2(pi)R. Thus a proton can be a stable triad of three ~312 Mev "quarks-circles" made from two pairs of "K Mesons" of ~ 560 Mev made from a "big bang" photon of 1.12 GeV, the odd -man-out negative K meson decayed to the external electron: n* 1.02Mev/alpha =3D 8.00*1.02e6*137 =3D 1.12 Gev The Antiproton is a stable Triad of two "down or negative quarks" and one "up or positive quarks" with the odd-man-out positive K meson decaying to the external positron. In either case the bound quarks have an energy of ~312 Mev each with the 560 Mev - 312 Mev =3D 248 Mev going into their Binding Energy. The Proton: -----> + <------ - -------> + net spin + 1/2, net charge +q The Neutron: ------> + <------ - -------> + 0 <------- neutrino <------ - Net spin - 1/2 net charge 0.00. Unstable when unbound. The Cygnon (or highly shrunken Hydrino?) ------> + <----- - -------> + <------ - originally a negative 6.8 eV lepton, one or more ------> + originally a positive 6.8 eV lepton, one or more <------ - two fractionally charged paired electrons Net charge 0.00, net spin 0.00, Stable Unbound. 6.8 ev =3D 1.02e6/(8.0 * 1372) or one of the numerous 6.8 ev particles (light leptons) that could be made from the 13.6 ev interactions of a proton with it's shrinking external electron, perhaps necessary to keep a neutrino-like "cushion" in there, and of course, we have to get "alpha" involved. Since mcr =3D hbar the mass (m) can decrease as radius r increases and vice versa allowing the "quarks" to exchange energy/mass and radius while conserving energy and momentum. In K electron capture where energies less than 1.0 mev is given off, the captured electron is shrunk down to a radius corresponding to more than 60 Mev which may or may not correspond to the minimum stable hydrino orbit which I have not heard Dr. Mills specify exactly. OTOH, when an electron or positron is given off with energies of a few MeV they swell up to their original radii. Going by this, Hydrino (or Cygnon) formation could give KeV to greater than MeV (binding energy) when formed. It's an intriguing question as to what the lowest energy stable hydrino looks like. Well this is a half-baked try, and it isn't grand, but we need a continuing mystery to keep things interesting. Oh yes, to add to the lingering mystery, Cygnus X-3 "switched off" in 1996 but comes back on periodically. Had not a lot of effort and documentation gone in to understanding the particle, prior to that time, it would be easy for the skeptic to write off the Cygnet as science fiction ... not unlike the hydrino... =2E..or are we talking about the same thing, tarred and feathered with two fractional charges ? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 10:07:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PH6sUE026950; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:06:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PH6qPu026936; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:06:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:06:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mgl1wJ+ikckV3LQXSz77rnuZABqjxyGCf7ZZ1wzn9DXb6OvIEqJIR9SogX9klmCc; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007302517628146@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Three Phase Lifters Are Fast Neutrons Tachyons? Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:06:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409d4da305ccb0e50858aaea5c670e4736350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.126 Resent-Message-ID: <8KZzmD.A.zkG.swqBGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74039 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote. > > Fred, > > At one time, the hydrino --travelling at near c fit the properties of > the Cynet better than most hypothetical particles. > I consired that too. Bound Electronium would fill the bill too since electron-positron pair production is so copious (gigatons per second according to a Google search):. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast25feb_1m.htm "Waiting for Cygnus X-3" " "When we looked at the images, lo and behold, there was definitely a one-sided radio jet, about 50 milliarcseconds long," recalled McCollough. "Two days later it extended to 120 milliarcseconds and then it disappeared. This likely makes Cyg X-3 a galactic blazar -- a jet source where we were looking straight down the jet." " "The Compton Gamma-Ray Observatory will be able to detect the spectral line at 511 keV that results from electrons and positrons annihilating one another. Jets like these might also entrain matter from the accretion disk or the stellar wind. If that happens we might be able to see that material by means of spectral line emission at x-ray energies." > I rest my case. Se what you get for changing the thread, Jones? :-) Fred > > Now it would be interesting to look at a proton bound with two > fractionally charged electrons -- a.k.a. the old notion of Frederick > Sparber called: ta-da: the 'light lepton'. > > > For the fractionally charged (1/2 normal charge) electron to be 'light' > we are back to the issue of mass wrt charge. > > In pursuit of 'the truth' (or at least any glimmer of same) and as one > who does not mind dredging up, and re-polishing, old Vo posts... here is > yet another "Swan song" so to speak. > > This 'dark subject matter', as it turns out, is a > pun-play-segue not to be missed.... especially, as I have > handy one of several on the subject of "cosmic hydrinos" > > .... not to mention a good chuckle to start off your > Sunday morning... if you should happen to be a movie fan of > the late comedienne, Madeline Kahn, and are a bit of a > Mutterspracher: > > The hydrino may be a good candidate for the extraordinary > but once well-known cosmic particle, formerly known as the > "Cygnon," now known as the "Cygnet" (as the editors of > Physical Review have decreed). But did their decree have the > side-effect being as unwittingly confusing this > extraordinary particle with the enormous Schwannstecker ;-) . > > This particle was a "hot" cosmology and physics topic in the > mid-80s and might have faded from view, were it not for the > elephantine memory of the internet. It is so extraordinary > that 90% of physicists do not have a clue about it, even > today - twenty years later. > > When the "fat lady" sings (not Madeline, please) and Dr. > Mills finally proves the reality of the hydrino (or not), > this proof might also end up being the swan-song of this > other old-score mystery. The following is a little bit > light-hearted, but not entirely half-hearted reminiscence of > an unfinished chapter in particle physics and cosmology. > > Is it even remotely possible that the Cygnet can be > identified as a hydrino ?? one that has shrunken far below > ground state (1/137) and then been accelerated to almost > lightspeed... or weirder yet, if one accepts the reality of > the hydrino, but not necessarily the full reach of Mills' > GUT/CQM, that in some remote cosmic furnace the hydrino can > be built from the ground up, rather than forming later from > top down? This might happen via two fractionally charged > electrons which make the Cygnet neutral. > > Some of the following has been paraphrased from an > interesting copyrighted piece: > > > > with further string theory analysis from Frederick Sparber. > Another reference is "Cygnons" M. M. Waldrop, Science 228, > 1298 (1985) > > Mt. Blanc is the largest mountain in the Alps, and through > it goes a tunnel which connects France with Italy. In a side > room near the tunnel midpoint, normally in total darkness, > resides a complex instrument containing many photomultiplier > tubes, inappropriately named NUSEX, which was designed to > observe the predicted decay of the proton. OK, maybe it is > an appropriate name, if one happens to be the grad student > stuck in there for weeks on end just to keep things plugged > in. > > Although NUSEX saw no proton decays (another great theory > bites the dust) and has now been upgraded for neutrino > detection, for a decade or more it did detect something very > strange and very powerful coming from the direction of the > constellation Cygnus, the Swan. > > This remarkable particle has been dubbed the cygnon, or > cygnet. It is hadron-like, meaning it looks like its got a > few quarks of its own. > > Cygnets have truly enormous kinetic energy: thousands of > times more than particles from the largest earthly > accelerators. Gamma rays from Cygnus have the right energy, > but produce only 1/300 of the µ-mesons observed in cygnon > events. Cygnets must have no electric charge because they > travel in a straight bee-line path which is not curved by > the magnetic field of the galaxy. Because cygnets create so > many µ-mesons in the atmosphere, it is likely that they are > strongly interacting particles (like protons) rather than > photons or neutrinos. > > The problem with cygnets being hadrons is they go too fast. > Cygnus X-3 is a binary star system on the other side of our > galaxy, with a neutron-star orbiting a normal star which > feeds it hydrogen. The system has an orbital period of only > 4.79 hours. The period can be used as a sort of > "fingerprint" to tag radiation from Cygnus, which should > change with this characteristic period - and indeed the > cygnets do fluctuate on exactly the same 4.79 hour period. > Not only is this confirming evidence of where they come > from, it also means that they travel at essentially the > speed of light; otherwise a large spread of lower speeds > would wash out the time variations. But the variations are > distinct and that just can't be correct, can it? > > To summarize the important properties of the Cygnet. > (1) It is has no electric charge (and most verities of > neutral atoms can be eliminated because the "empty space" > between Earth and Cygnus contains enough interstellar > hydrogen to strip electrons from energetic neutral atoms, > but possibly not from highly shrunken hydrinos). > (2) it has a rest mass that has been roughly estimated to be > somewhere about 1/20 of a proton mass - but that estimate > may be low as it was made working backwards on assumptions > of just how close to light speed any such particle could > travel > (3) it is a strongly interacting particle; and > (4) It must be stable or have a fairly long half-life. > > The variants of particle theory provide us with a menagerie > of predicted but largely unobserved particles: Higgs bosons, > axions, gravitinos, monopoles, squarks, etc. but so far as I > know, even R. Mills hasn't ventured to cast the Cygnet > particle as a highly shrunken hydrino. But he's probably got > a few other pressing problems. > > The string circle particle model treats a proton as two "up > or positive (+q) quarks" and one "down or negative (-q) > quark" energy circles with a radius R = kq2/E which each > originally contained 1/2 of the energy of the progenitor > photon going in a circle at velocity c with a wavelength > "lambda" of 2(pi)R. > > Thus a proton can be a stable triad of three ~312 Mev > "quarks-circles" made from two pairs of "K Mesons" of ~ 560 > Mev made from a "big bang" photon of 1.12 GeV, the > odd -man-out negative K meson decayed to the external > electron: > n* 1.02Mev/alpha = 8.00*1.02e6*137 = 1.12 Gev > > The Antiproton is a stable Triad of two "down or negative > quarks" and one "up or positive quarks" with the odd-man-out > positive K meson decaying to the external positron. In > either case the bound quarks have an energy of ~312 Mev each > with the 560 Mev - 312 Mev = 248 Mev going into their > Binding Energy. > > The Proton: > > -----> + > <------ - > -------> + net spin + 1/2, net charge +q > > The Neutron: > > ------> + > <------ - > -------> + > 0 <------- neutrino > <------ - > > Net spin - 1/2 net charge 0.00. Unstable when unbound. > > > > The Cygnon (or highly shrunken Hydrino?) > > ------> + > <----- - > -------> + > <------ - originally a negative 6.8 eV lepton, one or more > ------> + originally a positive 6.8 eV lepton, one or more > <------ - two fractionally charged paired electrons > > Net charge 0.00, net spin 0.00, Stable Unbound. > > 6.8 ev = 1.02e6/(8.0 * 1372) or one of the numerous 6.8 ev > particles (light leptons) that could be made from the 13.6 > ev interactions of a proton with it's shrinking external > electron, perhaps necessary to keep a neutrino-like > "cushion" in there, and of course, we have to get "alpha" > involved. > > Since mcr = hbar the mass (m) can decrease as radius r > increases and vice versa allowing the "quarks" to exchange > energy/mass and radius while conserving energy and momentum. > In K electron capture where energies less than 1.0 mev is > given off, the captured electron is shrunk down to a radius > corresponding to more than 60 Mev which may or may not > correspond to the minimum stable hydrino orbit which I have > not heard Dr. Mills specify exactly. OTOH, when an electron > or positron is given off with energies of a few MeV they > swell up to their original radii. Going by this, Hydrino (or > Cygnon) formation could give KeV to greater than MeV > (binding energy) when formed. It's an intriguing question as > to what the lowest energy stable hydrino looks like. > > Well this is a half-baked try, and it isn't grand, but we > need a continuing mystery to keep things interesting. Oh > yes, to add to the lingering mystery, Cygnus X-3 "switched > off" in 1996 but comes back on periodically. > > Had not a lot of effort and documentation gone in to > understanding the particle, prior to that time, it would be > easy for the skeptic to write off the Cygnet as science > fiction ... not unlike the hydrino... > > ...or are we talking about the same thing, tarred and > feathered with two fractional charges ? > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 11:11:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PIAlli016013; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:10:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PIAjp8015992; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:10:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:10:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Aliens Claim Sir Branson's Prize Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:10:27 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <3LdDf.A.q5D.ksrBGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74040 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > On 3/25/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > As far as interstellar travel is concerned, probably. The Solar > system is ours > > to play with. > > Except for Europa. "Make no attempt to land there." :-) > > Terry > Or "Mallworld" by Somtow Sucharitkul. http://www.amazon.com/Mallworld-Somtow-Sucharitkul/dp/0812555139/ref=pd_bbs_ sr_2/002-9116505-2684851?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174846067&sr=1-2 http://tinyurl.com/yvlnl3 It's hilarious. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.orionworks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 11:20:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PIKeHa022761; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:20:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PIKdXP022747; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:20:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:20:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1bfd01c76f0a$0021ce00$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 20:18:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74041 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: MJ-ES terminology controversy Status: RO X-Status: In the spirit of international friendship, Michel and Ed have agreed = that the title of the paper used by Ed (1) while not strictly academic = is technically unambiguous and emphasizes well the role of the palladium = cathode, and the title suggested by Michel (2) is more academic but = emphasizes less the role of the cathode. Both approaches are acceptable. = Therefore, no conflict exists. (1) "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of Palladium using a = Heavy-Water Electrolyte" (2) "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of a Heavy-Water = Electrolyte using a Palladium Cathode" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 11:40:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PIeIJ3001104; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:40:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PIeGY6001091; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:40:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:40:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070325114310.00a76df8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:43:40 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Energy Institute videos are doing well In-Reply-To: <9ddc03ht10uanv90h5hqc9fauo9euichie@4ax.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20070324202103.06368fb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070321175938.036af578@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070322162541.0891deb0@mindspring.com> <22db03981uvbevj2rvomsuouf4ueju0k1n@4ax.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20070324202103.06368fb0@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74042 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >You haven't answered my question about plugging into the sound system that the >mike she wears is connected to. >I suggest this primarily because it has the best cost/benefit ratio (zero >cost; >huge benefit). >[snip] >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk That's a good idea Robin, thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 15:40:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PMeBD3029397; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:40:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PMe8uE029382; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:40:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:40:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:40:06 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:40:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74043 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hydrino Breeding - The key to controlled fusion Status: O X-Status: Hi, 1) Start with a single well shrunken hydrino (p<25, e.g. p=3D24).=20 2) Add one electron to form Hydrinohydride.=20 3) Add one proton to form a Hydrino molecule.=20 4) With a fast particle, break the Hydrino molecule apart into two well = shrunken Hydrinos.=20 5) Return to step one with two Hydrinos iso one, thus doubling your = inventory. This process rapidly converts ordinary Hydrogen atoms directly into well shrunken Hydrinos, skipping all the intermediary shrinkage steps = otherwise present in the Mills process. If one starts with a level 24 Hydrino, then the total net energy release = per new Hydrino formed is 7832 eV.=20 All the Hydrinos formed are the *same* shrinkage level. They are = essentially "clones" of the original. IOW this method also provides a means of = consistently producing an homogenous population, of any level hydrino between 2 and = 24, e.g. a population of Hydrinos where p=3D16. This could be extremely useful for= chemical applications, e.g. battery technology. This method is the basis for a = Hydrino "factory". =46urthermore Hydrino molecules extracted from the "factory" can be used = for fusion, producing on average 10 MeV per Hydrino molecule. Because the = Hydrino molecules all have a consistent size, the fusion process should be easy = to regulate, resulting in a smooth power output. =20 This is the final piece of the puzzle, that should result in clean fusion= with ordinary Hydrogen as the primary feedstock, and any of many other natural neutron heavy isotopes as the secondary feedstock. (See point 6 in:- http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm). It has the added advantage that it makes us independent of Solar derived Hydrinos with their attendant uncertainties. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 16:31:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2PNVRg6017938; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:31:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2PNVPdp017906; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:31:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:31:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=RHs3C5OGYC0NdepqgxeQi7xowkhekbJPVwH+nS69ixY8rU4twimHm71dhkS2t8CTZzQdtnth3AL6VYaMMd9lK1ykGxZfM936XyGXKfC8Z2B1XEfhbDTsQpnbJ8UdOBLI1TAwQZazHfPmeXqxMGK1i4MX81LyCNjTjh91DNkT/QE= ; X-YMail-OSG: GjgXEjEVM1lE4ZN0XeBrVKvPacP4txtlkezp4TgrQZZRxzFqHHAAsIUbfcSeSLN3R7e5ejjuTziX2_YuSptxjtwhuMTBOt2ZRddFsc5WSR0PQcRh0wo_0EMO2xzOSo8_HNxduDwyOrAMI_8- Message-ID: <4607064B.5090900@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:31:23 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydrino Breeding - The key to controlled fusion References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74044 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > 1) Start with a single well shrunken hydrino > 2) Add one electron to form Hydrinohydride. > 3) Add one proton to form a Hydrino molecule. > 4) With a fast particle, break the Hydrino molecule apart into two > 5) Return to step one with two Hydrinos, thus doubling your inventory. Nice bit of speculation. Rather thought provoking in the various implications, but not without a dark side .... Let's don't even go there. However, it is pretty clear that all of these steps 1-5 would be expected to occur in the solar corona itself, so there is every likelihood that there is already a population of Hy2 in the solar wind and correspondingly in the oceans of earth. Wish we knew how to harvest them. OTOH, perhaps they are very dense, as the small size suggests, and then they eventually might be expected to settle into the core of earth, being denser even than uranium. That significant population in the solar corona would likely be true even if gamma radiation from the sun tends to break most Hy2 up as it forms, before it can traverse the 200,000 km thickness of the 'blacklight' part of the corona, and be ejected into the solar wind. There would be an equilibrium level which would increase the further out from the sun they were found. One other thought. Looking at the hypothetical transmutation of argon + Hy2, and in light of earthly isotopes percentage -- this might be revealing. 99.6% of this gas on earth is 40Ar. Yet 38Ar is ostensibly stable. Yet it is of such extraordinarily low percentage that one wonders if the primordial population were not all 40Ar, and the 38AR is formed secondarily from interaction with Hy2 in the ionosphere. The reasoning behind this is not as moronic as it sounds at first, as very low isotopic percentages often have greater statistical meaning than is apparent -- but more on that later. Many implications on the solar side, and even more for a hydrino breeder on earth. This could definitely solve all future energy needs of the planet. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 17:37:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2Q0b4Qd004983; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:37:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2Q0avVS004950; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:36:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:36:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c76f3e$d8001cd0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <4607064B.5090900@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydrino Breeding - The key to controlled fusion Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:36:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74045 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote.. >One other thought. Looking at the hypothetical transmutation of argon + >Hy2, and in light of earthly isotopes percentage -- this might be >revealing. Howdy Jones, May not be totally hypothetical.. neon lighting has been around for generation and yet few studies have been done on some of the phenomena associated with neon. Outdoor lighting firms do not use neon lighting much anymore but the old timers had some interesting experiences with neon lights in thunderstorms. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 18:04:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2Q14jWs014605; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:04:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2Q14iZJ014592; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:04:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:04:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tQje+tCZF3dUo5QkKZP4uRwHgHdcXSRb0YX8aCXpZFUPEUjqzi4VYpPFzjzOSzS+fr2XtxilGQ1Il/iuiLzDfBQ2WactpzlWWpOvQu01R2rKZNtgrnl09RJpuTjBOcyTMa/n37bYrJDH/PYd6y5KtrVLpPo2bUiVEWpER/C5wmk= ; X-YMail-OSG: gw7KDvIVM1koa.AUBamCtPJVF3RZHeq1i_6u4P1JOUUg1XxD4ivoHC3Dygbej2kQRwgW0CI0M7B3LtBGSr0edxcpDfNcWi0ErZEExs19M.B3bWw9oYHXsqhOWZzXv.ySxWuuchYi9eRCWzU- Message-ID: <46071C2A.7040800@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:04:42 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74046 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fill up my Led Zep with Hy-test Status: RO X-Status: The density of the hydrino at deep shrinkage is a matter of speculation. AFAIK even R. Mills has not ventured a guess. The species certainly should be very dense, as the atomic weight of the nucleus does not change, yet the radius of the electron 'smear' (orbitsphere) decreases in whole fractions, which results in a cubic power law reduction for volume and corresponding (possible) increase in density. This is not a universal happenstance, however, so we really do not know. However, at a radius of 1/2 the same mass occupies 1/8 the former volume, and could conceivably be eight times denser. Lift is provided by displacement -- a heavier mass is displaced by a lighter one. When we once filled dirigibles with five tons of H2 in order to displace 50 tons of normal atmosphere (O2 and N2 mostly), and did that with a support structure weighing 25 tons, then our available lift was 20 tons. OTOH, if the zeppelin were to be filled with hydrinos shrunken to a radius of 1/10 then that would require about 100 million pounds of the stuff. And guess what, rock fans, that particular Led Zep is NOT headed up a stairway to heaven ... more like a Faustian b-major-line to hell. Jones For the few Rock-music aficionados on Vo, and to prove that science is not all work and no play-time --- here is some trivia on what is probably the most famous, and most often played Rock song of all time- "Stairway to Heaven." That in itself is a b-minor miracle, as the song is 8 minutes+ and anything over 3 min. once got limited play time, by direct order of the RIAA, punishable by a larger slice of payola than normal. 1) It was never charted, because it was never released as a single. 2) It is about a woman who accumulates wealth, but finds out the hard way that this will not get her into heaven. On many songs, Plant/Page managed to make misogyny sound like insight... 3) Almost all novice guitarists (of the young male persuasion) "try" to learn this song (painfully). In Terry's favorite movie 'Wayne's World,' it is banned in the guitar shop where Wayne starts playing it. It has sold far more sheet music than any other song. 4) Rumored to contain a backward satanic message ... as if Led Zeppelin did the Faust shtick, and sold their souls to the devil. Kind of a rock and roll cliche, no? Jimmy Page did buy Aleister Crowley's former house, and Crowley advocated that his Satanic followers learn to read and speak backwards. The Led drummer - Bonzo Bonham died there in 1980 after a binge, causing the band to split. Sounds almost demonically contractual. This song may have implications for the broader field of 'reverse speech' (David Oats), mentioned by Hoyt Stearns some time ago. Not that anybody cares truth in Rock and Roll. 5) The song has been cover by strange bedfellows like Dolly Parton and Pat Boone, U2, Frank Zappa, The Dave Matthews Band, Nancy Wilson, etc etc. Neil Sedaka had an unrelated hit with the same title. Pat Boone changed the line "All in one is all and all" to "Three in one is all and all. He was not referring to Musketeers or even to Mouseketeers. 6) Page had formed the New Yardbirds in 1968, which would then become Led Zeppelin after Keith Moon commented that this band would go down like a "Lead Balloon". Nicky Hopkins and Jeff Beck recorded one song with them. Jimmy Page said of the name, "Those damn Americans will think it's Lead (pronounced as 'Leed') so they changed the spelling to Led Zeppelin. They toured and recorded almost exclusively in the USA and away from England, to avoid the high taxes there. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 25 18:57:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2Q1vX8n028794; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:57:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2Q1vW5x028780; Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:57:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:57:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Fill up my Led Zep with Hy-test Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:57:27 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0057_01C76F0F.6EC53900" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <46071C2A.7040800@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74047 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C76F0F.6EC53900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 6:05 PM To: vortex Subject: [Vo]: Fill up my Led Zep with Hy-test Funny you mentioned this -- Led Zeppelin is by far my favorite contemporary musical group (Gustav Mahler is my favorite composer, and I definitely see similarites between the two). Although I didn't like Zep at first, I persevered and started to see and appreciate the amazing mathematical complexity in their music, e.g. I listend to "The Song Remains the Same" hundreds of times and it still amazes me -- their must be five different themes running concurrently, but I'm not a musician, so can't speak with authority. Hoyt Stearns For the few Rock-music aficionados on Vo, and to prove that science is not all work and no play-time --- here is some trivia on what is probably the most famous, and most often played Rock song of all time- "Stairway to Heaven." That in itself is a b-minor miracle, as the song is 8 minutes+ and anything over 3 min. once got limited play time, by direct order of the RIAA, punishable by a larger slice of payola than normal. 1) It was never charted, because it was never released as a single. 2) It is about a woman who accumulates wealth, but finds out the hard way that this will not get her into heaven. On many songs, Plant/Page managed to make misogyny sound like insight... 3) Almost all novice guitarists (of the young male persuasion) "try" to learn this song (painfully). In Terry's favorite movie 'Wayne's World,' it is banned in the guitar shop where Wayne starts playing it. It has sold far more sheet music than any other song. 4) Rumored to contain a backward satanic message ... as if Led Zeppelin did the Faust shtick, and sold their souls to the devil. Kind of a rock and roll cliche, no? Jimmy Page did buy Aleister Crowley's former house, and Crowley advocated that his Satanic followers learn to read and speak backwards. The Led drummer - Bonzo Bonham died there in 1980 after a binge, causing the band to split. Sounds almost demonically contractual. This song may have implications for the broader field of 'reverse speech' (David Oats), mentioned by Hoyt Stearns some time ago. Not that anybody cares truth in Rock and Roll. 5) The song has been cover by strange bedfellows like Dolly Parton and Pat Boone, U2, Frank Zappa, The Dave Matthews Band, Nancy Wilson, etc etc. Neil Sedaka had an unrelated hit with the same title. Pat Boone changed the line "All in one is all and all" to "Three in one is all and all. He was not referring to Musketeers or even to Mouseketeers. 6) Page had formed the New Yardbirds in 1968, which would then become Led Zeppelin after Keith Moon commented that this band would go down like a "Lead Balloon". Nicky Hopkins and Jeff Beck recorded one song with them. Jimmy Page said of the name, "Those damn Americans will think it's Lead (pronounced as 'Leed') so they changed the spelling to Led Zeppelin. They toured and recorded almost exclusively in the USA and away from England, to avoid the high taxes there. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C76F0F.6EC53900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene = [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net]
Sent: = Sunday,=20 March 25, 2007 6:05 PM
To: vortex
Subject: [Vo]: Fill up my Led = Zep with=20 Hy-test



Funny you mentioned this -- Led Zeppelin is by = far my=20 favorite contemporary musical group (Gustav Mahler is my favorite = composer, and=20 I definitely see similarites between the two).  Although I didn't = like Zep=20 at first, I persevered and started to see and appreciate the amazing=20 mathematical complexity in their music,
e.g. I listend to "The Song = Remains=20 the Same" hundreds of times and it still amazes me -- their must be five = different themes running concurrently,
but I'm not a musician, so = can't speak=20 with authority.

Hoyt Stearns



For the=20 few Rock-music aficionados on Vo, and to prove that science is
not = all work=20 and no play-time --- here is some trivia on what is
probably the most = famous,=20 and most often played Rock song of all time-
"Stairway to Heaven." = That in=20 itself is a b-minor miracle, as the song
is 8 minutes+ and anything = over 3=20 min. once got limited play time, by
direct order of the RIAA, = punishable by a=20 larger slice of payola than
normal.

1) It was never charted, = because=20 it was never released as a single.

2) It is about a woman who = accumulates=20 wealth, but finds out the hard
way that this will not get her into = heaven. On=20 many songs, Plant/Page
managed to make misogyny sound like=20 insight...<g>

3) Almost all novice guitarists (of the young = male=20 persuasion) "try" to
learn this song (painfully). In Terry's favorite = movie=20 'Wayne's World,'
it is banned in the guitar shop where Wayne starts = playing=20 it. It has
sold far more sheet music than any other song.

4) = Rumored=20 to contain a backward satanic message ... as if Led Zeppelin
did the = Faust=20 shtick, and sold their souls to the devil. Kind of a rock
and roll = cliche,=20 no?

Jimmy Page did buy Aleister Crowley's former house, and=20 Crowley
advocated that his Satanic followers learn to read and speak=20 backwards.
The Led drummer - Bonzo Bonham died there in 1980 after a = binge,=20 causing
the band to split. Sounds almost demonically = contractual.

This=20 song may have implications for the broader field of 'reverse
speech' = (David=20 Oats), mentioned by Hoyt Stearns some time ago. Not that
anybody = cares truth=20 in Rock and Roll.

5) The song has been cover by strange = bedfellows like=20 Dolly Parton and
Pat Boone, U2, Frank Zappa, The Dave Matthews Band, = Nancy=20 Wilson, etc
etc. Neil Sedaka had an unrelated hit with the same = title. Pat=20 Boone
changed the line "All in one is all and all" to "Three in one = is all=20 and
all. He was not referring to Musketeers or even to=20 Mouseketeers.

6) Page had formed the New Yardbirds in 1968, which = would=20 then become
Led Zeppelin after Keith Moon commented that this band = would go=20 down
like a "Lead Balloon". Nicky Hopkins and Jeff Beck recorded one=20 song
with them. Jimmy Page said of the name, "Those damn Americans = will=20 think
it's Lead (pronounced as 'Leed') so they changed the spelling = to=20 Led
Zeppelin. They toured and recorded almost exclusively in the USA=20 and
away from England, to avoid the high taxes=20 there.



------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C76F0F.6EC53900-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 00:04:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2Q74T36020448; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:04:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2Q74HVn020401; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:04:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:04:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1c9d01c76f74$ace9a030$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <46071C2A.7040800@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:02:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74048 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Fill up my Led Zep with Hy-test Status: RO X-Status: You are slightly mis-Led with your Zep Jones ;-) A Zep filled with Hy2 would weigh just about the same as one filled with = H2. This is because the volume occupied by a given number of gas = molecules does not depend significantly on the molecule size: at STP, = one mole of any gas occupies around 22.4 L. This follows from the ideal = gas law: P*V=3Dn*R*T =3D> V/n =3D R*T/P =3D (8.3145 * 273.15) / 101325 =3D = 0.02241 m3 =3D 22.4 L But the leak rate would be much higher I guess, this does depend on = molecule size! Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 3:04 AM Subject: [Vo]: Fill up my Led Zep with Hy-test > The density of the hydrino at deep shrinkage is a matter of = speculation.=20 > AFAIK even R. Mills has not ventured a guess. >=20 > The species certainly should be very dense, as the atomic weight of = the=20 > nucleus does not change, yet the radius of the electron 'smear'=20 > (orbitsphere) decreases in whole fractions, which results in a cubic=20 > power law reduction for volume and corresponding (possible) increase = in=20 > density. This is not a universal happenstance, however, so we really = do=20 > not know. >=20 > However, at a radius of 1/2 the same mass occupies 1/8 the former=20 > volume, and could conceivably be eight times denser. >=20 > Lift is provided by displacement -- a heavier mass is displaced by a=20 > lighter one. When we once filled dirigibles with five tons of H2 in=20 > order to displace 50 tons of normal atmosphere (O2 and N2 mostly), and = > did that with a support structure weighing 25 tons, then our available = > lift was 20 tons. >=20 > OTOH, if the zeppelin were to be filled with hydrinos shrunken to a=20 > radius of 1/10 then that would require about 100 million pounds of the = > stuff. >=20 > And guess what, rock fans, that particular Led Zep is NOT headed up a=20 > stairway to heaven ... more like a Faustian b-major-line to hell. >=20 > Jones >=20 >=20 > For the few Rock-music aficionados on Vo, and to prove that science is = > not all work and no play-time --- here is some trivia on what is=20 > probably the most famous, and most often played Rock song of all time- = > "Stairway to Heaven." That in itself is a b-minor miracle, as the song = > is 8 minutes+ and anything over 3 min. once got limited play time, by=20 > direct order of the RIAA, punishable by a larger slice of payola than=20 > normal. >=20 > 1) It was never charted, because it was never released as a single. >=20 > 2) It is about a woman who accumulates wealth, but finds out the hard=20 > way that this will not get her into heaven. On many songs, Plant/Page=20 > managed to make misogyny sound like insight... >=20 > 3) Almost all novice guitarists (of the young male persuasion) "try" = to=20 > learn this song (painfully). In Terry's favorite movie 'Wayne's = World,'=20 > it is banned in the guitar shop where Wayne starts playing it. It has=20 > sold far more sheet music than any other song. >=20 > 4) Rumored to contain a backward satanic message ... as if Led = Zeppelin=20 > did the Faust shtick, and sold their souls to the devil. Kind of a = rock=20 > and roll cliche, no? >=20 > Jimmy Page did buy Aleister Crowley's former house, and Crowley=20 > advocated that his Satanic followers learn to read and speak = backwards.=20 > The Led drummer - Bonzo Bonham died there in 1980 after a binge, = causing=20 > the band to split. Sounds almost demonically contractual. >=20 > This song may have implications for the broader field of 'reverse=20 > speech' (David Oats), mentioned by Hoyt Stearns some time ago. Not = that=20 > anybody cares truth in Rock and Roll. >=20 > 5) The song has been cover by strange bedfellows like Dolly Parton and = > Pat Boone, U2, Frank Zappa, The Dave Matthews Band, Nancy Wilson, etc=20 > etc. Neil Sedaka had an unrelated hit with the same title. Pat Boone=20 > changed the line "All in one is all and all" to "Three in one is all = and=20 > all. He was not referring to Musketeers or even to Mouseketeers. >=20 > 6) Page had formed the New Yardbirds in 1968, which would then become=20 > Led Zeppelin after Keith Moon commented that this band would go down=20 > like a "Lead Balloon". Nicky Hopkins and Jeff Beck recorded one song=20 > with them. Jimmy Page said of the name, "Those damn Americans will = think=20 > it's Lead (pronounced as 'Leed') so they changed the spelling to Led=20 > Zeppelin. They toured and recorded almost exclusively in the USA and=20 > away from England, to avoid the high taxes there. >=20 >=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 00:20:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2Q7KaBY024861; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:20:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2Q7KZdq024842; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:20:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:20:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1ca701c76f76$f2fd2950$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <46071C2A.7040800@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:18:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74049 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Fill up my Led Zep with Hy-test Status: O X-Status: Jones said: > as if Led Zeppelin=20 > did the Faust shtick, and sold their souls to the devil. Kind of a = rock=20 > and roll cliche, no? Indeed, have you ever seen Brian De Palma's "Phantom of the paradise"? I = must have seen it 3 or 4 times in a row at the time :) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071994/ Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 05:53:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QCrdTH014191; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 05:53:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QCrbqQ014147; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 05:53:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 05:53:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <4607CE1C.77380253@centurytel.net> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:43:56 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydrino Breeding - The key to controlled fusion References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xr" Resent-Message-ID: <8rZ-PD.A.6cD.QJ8BGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74050 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, This is great! Have you thought about posting it to the Hydrino list? Jack Smith --------------- Robin wrote: 1) Start with a single well shrunken hydrino (p<25, e.g. p=24). 2) Add one electron to form Hydrinohydride. 3) Add one proton to form a Hydrino molecule. 4) With a fast particle, break the Hydrino molecule apart into two well shrunken Hydrinos. 5) Return to step one with two Hydrinos iso one, thus doubling your inventory. This process rapidly converts ordinary Hydrogen atoms directly into well shrunken Hydrinos, skipping all the intermediary shrinkage steps otherwise present in the Mills process. If one starts with a level 24 Hydrino, then the total net energy release per new Hydrino formed is 7832 eV. All the Hydrinos formed are the *same* shrinkage level. They are essentially "clones" of the original. IOW this method also provides a means of consistently producing an homogenous population, of any level hydrino between 2 and 24, e.g. a population of Hydrinos where p=16. This could be extremely useful for chemical applications, e.g. battery technology. This method is the basis for a Hydrino "factory". Furthermore Hydrino molecules extracted from the "factory" can be used for fusion, producing on average 10 MeV per Hydrino molecule. Because the Hydrino molecules all have a consistent size, the fusion process should be easy to regulate, resulting in a smooth power output. This is the final piece of the puzzle, that should result in clean fusion with ordinary Hydrogen as the primary feedstock, and any of many other natural neutron heavy isotopes as the secondary feedstock. (See point 6 in:- http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Molecular%20Hydrino%20Fusion.htm). It has the added advantage that it makes us independent of Solar derived Hydrinos with their attendant uncertainties. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 08:26:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QFQYbg009966; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:26:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QFQWJe009932; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:26:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:26:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=lSOXJnOW54a8C84ES4I/1v2weR9SlFzU9nfijG7ABt4nDjsTV0nB4Qu+cvcxc8Y9Wgb7FGADZPzLyQRUtZdSVJNHVA6I+0HoAasSowv1EXIMnp7Y9jpvqcxLvrAlXQiDY2ltiNARTp2h5AkUI8DwpMVnMV46duS8wp2S0wiuZlw= ; X-YMail-OSG: 2VlehcwVM1lfoTTg5L_X1.peGQ5OqES43rEfsIxSQot7Pz0bqZvRs9zDhsmw0Zcd8SiNlTGiT5yDKx.dCd22eY74sZv5LOTGUZw5pHIr4FLboLRiwMB6HRTqL0w5mTK5yG8qdAC0W9fWsmHZCpzLxj6oHA-- Message-ID: <4607E621.1000407@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:26:25 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74051 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 700 years of OU? Status: RO X-Status: Who says monks don't swing? The "Botafumeiro" is a famous old thurible (incense burner) suspended and often seen swinging wildly across the domed nave of the Cathedral Santiago de Compostela, in Spain, at a rather surprising (and dangerous) speed (if you are underneath it). Incense is burned in this swinging brass and silver container, mostly for the enjoyment paying tourists as it holds so much that it costs 250 Euros to fill, and the local area is not well-off (except for this attraction). Spiritual edification is a fringe benefit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Santiago_de_Compostela The Botafumeiro is, in effect, a pendulum which is normally kept in motion by as many as 8 monks expending very little energy, and in fact there has for a long time been local talk of a wheel which will allow it swing perpetually on its own (powered by angels, as they say)... or at least until the rope gives out, which is every 20 years or so. http://tinyurl.com/g5vhg or http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/physique/perso/gtulloue/Meca/Oscillateurs/botafumeiro.html Alas, like most pendulums, it is probably not OU -- instead it is just very efficient device which may extract some 'extra' energy from both gravity and the angular momentum of earth - and retain an incredible of stored energy (torque)... figure the torque of the Botafumeiro and it is similar to that of a compact automobile. However, of keen interest to alternative energy entusiasts in the 'pendulum-plus' subject category is that it may serve as a bootstrapping device -- to capture the energy of waves, or tide, or even turbulent river flow at double the normal efficiency for slow moving flow. Here is an example: http://energie.cnrs.fr/rapport_ACI_2004-2006/ECD032.pdf (go down to page 7 or 28 for an image of what they are doing, if you do not read French) Better yet here is an interesting video of something similar, which demonstrates how one can convert a few watts into massive amounts of torque, using a pendulum. http://home.planet.nl/%7Esintt000/RonPendulum.MPG ... and there is a thread on Hartmann's forum of the broader subject: the Mikovic invention, on which these concepts are an improvement: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1763.360.html The bottom line situation is this: it might be feasible, using bootstrapping of such a high torque, high efficiency mechanical oscillator - to take a 'free' source of energy, like the flow of a river, and instead of an expensive dam, for instance -- incorporate the conversion device onto a turbulence generator (like a undulating concrete water raceway) which cheap device gives you the same amount of net energy as if there were a $100 million dam there, but without all the disruption that dams cause and for pennies on the dollar. Quein Sabe? Now that is one swinging smoker of an alternative energy idea... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 09:18:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QGIIDa004636; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:18:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QGIGbq004611; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:18:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:18:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:18:14 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 700 years of OU? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_13d4d8e82a37504c3153631e5c017261" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070326162329.408EEBFB7A@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74052 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_13d4d8e82a37504c3153631e5c017261 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jones sez: > Who says monks don't swing? ... > Alas, like most pendulums, it is probably not OU > -- instead it is just very efficient device which > may extract some 'extra' energy from both gravity > and the angular momentum of earth - and retain an > incredible of stored energy (torque)... figure the > torque of the Botafumeiro and it is similar to that > of a compact automobile. > > However, of keen interest to alternative energy > entusiasts in the 'pendulum-plus' subject category > is that it may serve as a bootstrapping device > -- to capture the energy of waves, or tide, or even > turbulent river flow at double the normal efficiency > for slow moving flow. ... Jones, This is an admitted spin-off loosely based on your recent soliloquies of undulating proportions. Er, ahem... What I meant to say is it would not surprise me if a similar analogy, a mechanism will be found at play when it comes to certain kinds of LENR reactions. Perhaps specific EM frequencies which in turn generate harmonics can be utilized to control the accumulation of kinetic energy on an atomic scale, perhaps to help overwhelm the Coulomb Barrier within crystalline structures. It's the marching in-step of solders over a bridge analogy. It is likely that special attention would need to be spent analyzing both the internal volume (the empty spaces) and topological surfaces of these crystalline structures in order to figure out how best to focus and enhance the harmonics. The only problem with this analogy is that it would appear to be a one-way ticket. Once the Coulomb Barrier is breached regularly (generating fusion & heat) the consequences would be significant increases of additional random kinetic energy - destructive force. The result is likely to be an untimely demise of the crystalline structures. It's the biting of the hand that feeds it analogy at work here. It's not clear to me how one might go about devising a process that would not destroy itself in the process, perhaps by not allowing the crystalline structure to exceed a certain temperature. With the wonders nanotechnology just around the corner who knows what might be possible. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_13d4d8e82a37504c3153631e5c017261 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones sez:

> Who says monks don't swing?

...

> Alas, like most pendulums, it is probably not OU
> -- instead it is just very efficient device which
> may extract some 'extra' energy from both gravity
> and the angular momentum of earth - and retain an
> incredible of stored energy (torque)... figure the
> torque of the Botafumeiro and it is similar to that
> of a compact automobile.
>
> However, of keen interest to alternative energy
> entusiasts in the 'pendulum-plus' subject category
> is that it may serve as a bootstrapping device
> -- to capture the energy of waves, or tide, or even
> turbulent river flow at double the normal efficiency
> for slow moving flow.

...

Jones,

This is an admitted spin-off loosely based on your recent soliloquies of un= dulating proportions.

Er, ahem...

What I meant to say is it would not surprise me if a similar analogy, a mec= hanism will be found at play when it comes to certain kinds of LENR reactio= ns. Perhaps specific EM frequencies which in turn generate harmonics can be= utilized to control the accumulation of kinetic energy on an atomic scale,= perhaps to help overwhelm the Coulomb Barrier within crystalline structure= s. It's the marching in-step of solders over a bridge analogy. It is likely= that special attention would need to be spent analyzing both the internal = volume (the empty spaces) and topological surfaces of these crystalline str= uctures in order to figure out how best to focus and enhance the harmonics.=

The only problem with this analogy is that it would appear to be a one-way = ticket. Once the Coulomb Barrier is breached regularly (generating fusion &= heat) the consequences would be significant increases of additional random= kinetic energy - destructive force. The result is likely to be an untimely= demise of the crystalline structures. It's the biting of the hand that fee= ds it analogy at work here. It's not clear to me how one might go about dev= ising a process that would not destroy itself in the process, perhaps by no= t allowing the crystalline structure to exceed a certain temperature. With = the wonders nanotechnology just around the corner who knows what might be p= ossible.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_13d4d8e82a37504c3153631e5c017261-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 09:19:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QGJlLX001296; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:19:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QGJk0L001278; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:19:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:19:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_6de39615-ff99-4e73-b23f-e594e8e3f114_" X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] From: Mark Goldes To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 700 years of OU? Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:19:43 -0700 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2007 16:19:43.0592 (UTC) FILETIME=[90234E80:01C76FC2] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74053 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --_6de39615-ff99-4e73-b23f-e594e8e3f114_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones,A simple way to capture the energy of moving water in a river is a la= rge rotating capacitor type generator. A small one has been prototyped.It c= an turn as slowly as 1 rpm with very high efficiency.We have pieces of one = of the prototypes here. It was invented locally. We could not locate any in= terest in supporting development, which seven years ago was estimated to ne= ed $2 million.Mark> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:26:25 -0700> From: jonesb9@pa= cbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: [Vo]: 700 years of OU?> > Who = says monks don't swing?> > The "Botafumeiro" is a famous old thurible (ince= nse burner) suspended > and often seen swinging wildly across the domed nav= e of the Cathedral > Santiago de Compostela, in Spain, at a rather surprisi= ng (and dangerous) > speed (if you are underneath it).> > Incense is burned= in this swinging brass and silver container, mostly > for the enjoyment pa= ying tourists as it holds so much that it costs 250 > Euros to fill, and th= e local area is not well-off (except for this > attraction). Spiritual edif= ication is a fringe benefit.> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_S= antiago_de_Compostela> > The Botafumeiro is, in effect, a pendulum which is= normally kept in > motion by as many as 8 monks expending very little ener= gy, and in fact > there has for a long time been local talk of a wheel whic= h will allow it > swing perpetually on its own (powered by angels, as they = say)... or at > least until the rope gives out, which is every 20 years or = so.> > http://tinyurl.com/g5vhg> or> http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/phy= sique/perso/gtulloue/Meca/Oscillateurs/botafumeiro.html> > Alas, like most = pendulums, it is probably not OU -- instead it is just > very efficient dev= ice which may extract some 'extra' energy from both > gravity and the angul= ar momentum of earth - and retain an incredible of > stored energy (torque)= ... figure the torque of the Botafumeiro and it is > similar to that of a c= ompact automobile.> > However, of keen interest to alternative energy entus= iasts in the > 'pendulum-plus' subject category is that it may serve as a b= ootstrapping > device -- to capture the energy of waves, or tide, or even t= urbulent > river flow at double the normal efficiency for slow moving flow.= Here is > an example:> > http://energie.cnrs.fr/rapport_ACI_2004-2006/ECD0= 32.pdf> > (go down to page 7 or 28 for an image of what they are doing, if = you do > not read French)> > Better yet here is an interesting video of som= ething similar, which > demonstrates how one can convert a few watts into m= assive amounts of > torque, using a pendulum.> > http://home.planet.nl/%7Es= intt000/RonPendulum.MPG> > ... and there is a thread on Hartmann's forum of= the broader subject: > the Mikovic invention, on which these concepts are = an improvement:> http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1763.360.html> > = The bottom line situation is this: it might be feasible, using > bootstrapp= ing of such a high torque, high efficiency mechanical > oscillator - to tak= e a 'free' source of energy, like the flow of a > river, and instead of an = expensive dam, for instance -- incorporate the > conversion device onto a t= urbulence generator (like a undulating > concrete water raceway) which chea= p device gives you the same amount of > net energy as if there were a $100 = million dam there, but without all > the disruption that dams cause and for= pennies on the dollar. Quein Sabe?> > Now that is one swinging smoker of a= n alternative energy idea...> > Jones> = --_6de39615-ff99-4e73-b23f-e594e8e3f114_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones,

A simple way to capture the energy of moving water in a river= is a large rotating capacitor type generator.

A small one has been= prototyped.

It can turn as slowly as 1 rpm with very high efficienc= y.

We have pieces of one of the prototypes here. It was invented loc= ally.

We could not locate any interest in supporting development, w= hich seven years ago was estimated to need $2 million.

Mark

&= gt; Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:26:25 -0700
> From: jonesb9@pacbell.net=
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: [Vo]: 700 years of OU?>
> Who says monks don't swing?
>
> The "Botafumeir= o" is a famous old thurible (incense burner) suspended
> and often s= een swinging wildly across the domed nave of the Cathedral
> Santiag= o de Compostela, in Spain, at a rather surprising (and dangerous)
> = speed (if you are underneath it).
>
> Incense is burned in thi= s swinging brass and silver container, mostly
> for the enjoyment pa= ying tourists as it holds so much that it costs 250
> Euros to fill,= and the local area is not well-off (except for this
> attraction). = Spiritual edification is a fringe benefit.
>
> http://en.wikip= edia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Santiago_de_Compostela
>
> The Bota= fumeiro is, in effect, a pendulum which is normally kept in
> motion= by as many as 8 monks expending very little energy, and in fact
> t= here has for a long time been local talk of a wheel which will allow it > swing perpetually on its own (powered by angels, as they say)... or a= t
> least until the rope gives out, which is every 20 years or so.>
> http://tinyurl.com/g5vhg
> or
> http://www.scie= nces.univ-nantes.fr/physique/perso/gtulloue/Meca/Oscillateurs/botafumeiro.h= tml
>
> Alas, like most pendulums, it is probably not OU -- in= stead it is just
> very efficient device which may extract some 'ext= ra' energy from both
> gravity and the angular momentum of earth - a= nd retain an incredible of
> stored energy (torque)... figure the to= rque of the Botafumeiro and it is
> similar to that of a compact aut= omobile.
>
> However, of keen interest to alternative energy e= ntusiasts in the
> 'pendulum-plus' subject category is that it may s= erve as a bootstrapping
> device -- to capture the energy of waves, = or tide, or even turbulent
> river flow at double the normal efficie= ncy for slow moving flow. Here is
> an example:
>
> htt= p://energie.cnrs.fr/rapport_ACI_2004-2006/ECD032.pdf
>
> (go d= own to page 7 or 28 for an image of what they are doing, if you do
>= not read French)
>
> Better yet here is an interesting video = of something similar, which
> demonstrates how one can convert a few= watts into massive amounts of
> torque, using a pendulum.
> <= br>> http://home.planet.nl/%7Esintt000/RonPendulum.MPG
>
> = ... and there is a thread on Hartmann's forum of the broader subject:
&= gt; the Mikovic invention, on which these concepts are an improvement:
&= gt; http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1763.360.html
>
>= The bottom line situation is this: it might be feasible, using
> bo= otstrapping of such a high torque, high efficiency mechanical
> osci= llator - to take a 'free' source of energy, like the flow of a
> riv= er, and instead of an expensive dam, for instance -- incorporate the
&g= t; conversion device onto a turbulence generator (like a undulating
>= ; concrete water raceway) which cheap device gives you the same amount of <= br>> net energy as if there were a $100 million dam there, but without a= ll
> the disruption that dams cause and for pennies on the dollar. Q= uein Sabe?
>
> Now that is one swinging smoker of an alternati= ve energy idea...
>
> Jones
>
= --_6de39615-ff99-4e73-b23f-e594e8e3f114_-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 12:02:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QJ2Onx019490; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:02:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QJ2L0P019460; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:02:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:02:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070326145538.03685d48@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:02:12 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74054 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC Calculator museum Status: O X-Status: This is fun, in a geeky kind of way: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/calcs.html Here are great pictures of a Friden electro-mechanical calculator: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstw.html And a video! The video shows the Friden=20 multiplying and dividing 4 and 5 digit numbers,=20 operations which took several seconds and were=20 accompanied by marvelous clicking, banging, crashing and bells ringing: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstwvid.html It reminds me of a sign supposedly posted by the=20 U.K. ATLAS supercomputer in the 1960s, as quoted=20 by Stan Kelly-Bootle in "The Devil=92s DP Dictionary": ACHTUNG!! ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS!! Das computermachien ist nicht f=FCr gefingenpoken=20 and mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der=20 springenwerk, bowenfusen und poppencorken mit=20 spitzensparken. Ist nicht f=FCr gewerken bei da=20 dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen=20 hans in das pockets muss; relaxen and watch das blinkenlichten. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 13:22:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QKMV9f022804; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:22:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QKMSDL022778; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:22:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:22:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:22:27 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_253eee042f800481336e400da798e0cb" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070326202421.E03D93FA17E@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74055 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ethanol 'the answer,' auto execs tell Bush Status: O X-Status: --=_253eee042f800481336e400da798e0cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: Ethanol 'the answer,' auto execs tell Bush See: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/03/26/bush.automakers.ap/index.html http://tinyurl.com/2sx74r Another dog and pony show for the emperor. Regars, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_253eee042f800481336e400da798e0cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: Ethanol 'the answer,' auto execs tell Bush

See:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/03/26/bush.automakers.ap/index.html
http://tinyurl.com/2sx74r

Another dog and pony show for the emperor.

Regars,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_253eee042f800481336e400da798e0cb-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 14:12:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QLC83R013251; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:12:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QLC55A013226; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:12:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:12:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c76feb$61c0a000$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070326145538.03685d48@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:11:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <9HYfyB.A.gOD.kcDCGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74056 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: OFF TOPIC Calculator museum Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote.. Here are great pictures of a Friden electro-mechanical calculator: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstw.html Howdy Jed, I have a mint condition Friden just like the pic. Purchased for our business in 1965 for $ 995.00 for use in flow equations ( square root) ... took forever but as long as the gears didn't clash.,. it worked. Some engineering firms would not accept a slide rule calc,, had to have a calc . By 1968 we had purchased a Sharp electronic calc with sq and qube.. for $ 250.00. In 1972 we purchased our first computer.. a Digital Equipment PDP-8L for $ 12,000 bucks.. worthless.. gave up on computers until 1981 when we purchased a CADO with the huge disc drive. Wow! $ 17,000 bucks. We still have both the Friden and CADO in storage. Sad about Friden.. an example of obsolescense.. They didn't change with the times.. got gobbled up and I guess still nmake postage meters. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 14:36:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QLaB63022090; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:36:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QLa8JK022034; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:36:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:36:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070326172826.036a3ea8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:35:53 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: OFF TOPIC Calculator museum In-Reply-To: <002601c76feb$61c0a000$c905a8c0@xptower> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070326145538.03685d48@mindspring.com> <002601c76feb$61c0a000$c905a8c0@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74057 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: >In 1972 we purchased our first computer.. a Digital Equipment PDP-8L >for $ 12,000 bucks.. worthless.. gave up on computers until 1981 . . . I am surprised you did not like the PDP-8. It had a good reputation. I never used one myself. I started out with Data General computers, which I still think were better than PCs or Windows in some ways. I read that when IBM was developing the PC, they went to Data General and asked them to license the MicroNova DOS for the PC. Data General turned them down. MicroNova DOS was miles ahead of the Microsoft DOS that came with the PC. It was built for multitasking from the ground up, with an elegant set of controls, and better reliability than Windows managed until Win 2000. If only Data General had said yes, they would have become the biggest computer company on earth; no one would remember Bill Gates; and personal computers would have been more reliable for the first 20 years of their development. It would have saved society as a whole trillions of dollars of lost productivity & frustration. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 14:41:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QLetdn002336; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:40:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QLer9M002316; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:40:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:40:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydrino Breeding - The key to controlled fusion Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:40:49 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4607CE1C.77380253@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <4607CE1C.77380253@centurytel.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:40:48 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74058 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Taylor J. Smith's message of Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:43:56 = +0000: Hi Jack, >Hi Robin,=20 > >This is great! > >Have you thought about posting it to the=20 >Hydrino list? > >Jack Smith [snip] I am considering it, however I'm somewhat put off by the hostile = reception it is likely to receive. Potential problems:- 1) When being struck by a fast particle, a hydrino molecule probably = won't always split neatly in two. I have yet to work out just how much of a = problem this is. 2) If Dr. Mills is correct, and I am wrong, about the radius of the = Hydrino, then p=3D24 may not be enough for rapid fusion. (However even slow fusion= might be acceptable, depending one the actual half-life). 3) Dr. Mills wants nothing to do with fusion, and since he is currently = almost the only one spending money and doing actual research on Hydrinos = directly, I would prefer not to alienate him more than I already have. 4) The fast particles required might well be the alpha particles from the= fusion reaction, and hence the fusion reaction may need to become an integral = part of the process. With Dr. Mills being antagonistic toward any form of nuclear reaction, this is a struggle I would rather avoid. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 14:47:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QLlhA8030117; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:47:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QLlf2f030096; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:47:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:47:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 700 years of OU? Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:47:40 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070326162329.408EEBFB7A@mail1.mx.core.com> In-Reply-To: <20070326162329.408EEBFB7A@mail1.mx.core.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:47:39 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74059 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Steven Vincent Johnson's message of Mon, 26 Mar 2007 = 11:18:14 -0500: Hi, [snip] >What I meant to say is it would not surprise me if a similar analogy, a = mechanism will be found at play when it comes to certain kinds of LENR = reactions. Perhaps specific EM frequencies which in turn generate = harmonics can be utilized to control the accumulation of kinetic energy = on an atomic scale, perhaps to help overwhelm the Coulomb Barrier within = crystalline structures. It's the marching in-step of solders over a = bridge analogy.=20 [snip] This concept is embodied in the term "resonance", which can be found = throughout the CF literature. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 14:50:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QLomKw031849; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:50:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QLokhA031819; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:50:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:50:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydrino Breeding - The key to controlled fusion Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:50:45 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3vfg03drgg9894n93bu7sumnrvm058mka8@4ax.com> References: <4607CE1C.77380253@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:50:44 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74060 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:40:49 = +1000: Hi, [snip] >2) If Dr. Mills is correct, and I am wrong, about the radius of the = Hydrino, >then p=3D24 may not be enough for rapid fusion. (However even slow = fusion might be >acceptable, depending one the actual half-life). Oops...depending *on* the actual... Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 15:01:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QM1ApY015640; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:01:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QM19Wj015624; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:01:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:01:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070326175947.03638ec0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:00:56 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2348H.A.A0D.lKECGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74061 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Blog.wired on Szpak et al. Status: O X-Status: See: http://blog.wired.com/defense/ Scroll down to: "Navy Discovers Cold Fusion (again)" - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 15:24:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QMO46Q002215; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:24:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QMO3cb002165; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:24:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:24:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Tubular Lifter (again) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:24:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:23:59 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74062 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:46:34 -0500: Hi Harry, [snip] >>> Yes, but how can you be certain (other than by a the "laws of = physics" >>> argument) that the tube is not contributing a novel lifting force = when the >>> power exceeds a certain value. >>=20 >> I can't. I'm just explaining it as I see it. If you think I'm wrong, = then >> build >> the device, and measure the lift. Then you will know for sure who's = right. >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> Robin van Spaandonk > > >I thinking more along the lines...how would one test the hypothesis >experimentally? [snip] You suggest a new force that only takes effect when the power exceeds a = certain level. If this happens then it would show up as a "kink" in the graph of = lifting force plotted against input power. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 16:57:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2QNupMr022653; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:56:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2QNumOj022625; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:56:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:56:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Uf7tjeULr3ejlRZZyF2hdvbLFlvG3jRpPw0Es5YSBxtaM0rdkDjgqKGrbs2yob6w0m5Qk4fgyPLbejHTxarEPzS428MzSLZlBtZGQlNc6yNRjW7E1kMzokwBrGH1a0BAswYJk0K1VdBj+GzwubUZh7FkJo7uWvOD3q4kMDrm6VU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=oez7LeBp9NkFUsxgi5NZwG+uUAPkaPtFJhVR8ojOUGL/mWdsmdiRmnvFLGtDXwAMSfPErsRUTmDM2YjpxgPp7vT0QFTkcTpiR7G5/ifRdSZup2anGQfN//zgOCKIDkipCGv7rDXRBK/YUnUSzvtc9890RpNMeKQzG2bpYgyqye0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:56:45 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74063 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Scandium Status: O X-Status: Not too long ago, Jones posted a speculation re: scandium and T. Henry Moray (or was it Paul Brown or both?). I can't seem to find the post. Care to recall this Jones or do the MIBs threaten? :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 17:02:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R02NFj027496; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:02:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R02LIL027482; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:02:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:02:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nV/LjVBsbhO89kJY/uZXQ+LLvMCjagnhyr/Ezf3QqJe8Y95aE299xPnLXdZrJk02MHJI3vVtgCW88et502kuKr/PDlfb6FPDFNSBAkOTyhPqazRee3VG2gyjDE4sSQ+PyrWgP60UYQLwo4M/AJRPZosLEL+6mIIB4oJPvxttw2U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bssKyY+NR6+NrVff5HF0fs72u+sz2pzRORv7LcQIHaemF8fFcYF7TL5pO3wZ1h00py9OcxCUHcAcJSTn0BNjoY5H3m5sDjsmHQ5oGTnfv+z5b4f6X2zeR+sE4c45CTbZ7SdYzpXNXA4XGY/dCFwkfWMV+FTk6f5ijoCZde0epE4= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:02:19 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scandium In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74064 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/26/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > Not too long ago, Jones posted a speculation re: scandium and T. Henry > Moray (or was it Paul Brown or both?). I can't seem to find the post. > > Care to recall this Jones or do the MIBs threaten? :-) Nevermind. Someone else found it (Scandium is one of those REE found in placers with Neodymium): Scandium 1.5 Jones Beene Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:16:22 -0700 I received an interesting private communication concerning yesterday's post about Scandium. It is from a source who does not want his name mentioned, and that raises some red flags. After all - this is vortex, not sci.physics, but so be it. However, since the crux of the information is already online, and does have curious relevance, actually a double-relevance, I decided to include the public domain part of it - in an preliminary update of the prior post. It seems that a fellow named Henry Moray (who previously has been on many observer's list of highly "suspect" claimants to free energy), 80 years ago found what he called a "Swedish stone" which had "free energy" properties. Note that the name Scandium actually derives from its Swedish discovery, but this connection to Moray has never been mentioned before now - nor in relation to Moray's "Swedish stone" (AFAIK). One reason for the vocal suspicion of H.M. (from OU skeptics - not me - I am neutral on this) is that Moray was on mission with the Mormon Church to Uppsala, Sweden, when this discovery occurred - indicating at least that he was strongly inclined to believe in modern-day miracles, and also the LDS has long tentacles. Anyway, Moray was claimed to have been able to light a standard 100-watt light bulb (1925 ) using only this material in his circuitry as the power source - probably a simple tank circuit. And later he was said to be able power an electric flat iron, bringing the total power consumed to over 500 watts, but that stress would cause the "stone" to overheat. I can see a few wry-smiles out there in vo-land. Take it for what its worth - its an 80 year-old anecdote, recently revived by fringe researchers - and yet to be validated, even in part.... except.... Granted that this kind of information is also highly suspect, but it does fit in very tightly with this revised explanation of the "Swedish stone." It is a supposedly unrelated anecdote of the legendary "Hubbard Coil", which was claimed to be a powerful free energy generator invented around 1919. This story is most likely at least partially true (because of the late Paul Brown's research and the genuine newspaper coverage of one event ). Not to mention the fact that Hubbard did have proven access to a large amount of radium, which went missing from factory where he was working. There are newspaper & magazine articles online, and Hubbard's patent for a radium-spark plug, along with R&D notes, & biography. This is also relevant to the late Paul Brown's battery, but even Brown missed many important details in this. http://www.rafoeg.de/20,Dokumentenarchiv/10,Personenbezogenes_Archiv/,Hubbard_Alfred/Alfred%20Hubbard%20Coil%20Generator.pdf Consequently, the tie-in of Moray to both radium and Scandium is this. If Moray's "Swedish stone" was a natural (or mixed) mineral containing both radium and Scandium, both fairly common in that region, then it would have been far more active than radium alone - which is no slouch when it comes to radioactivity. I have no opinion on whether or not Moray actually did harness a natural radioactive mineral or not, but if Brown could do it in modern times - it is arguably possible. ERGO - let's say that previous skepticism has now been mediated by the existence of a hypothetical explanation for all the anecdote, which hypothesis can explain two prior claims. Whereas before this, it was all in the realm of bare-anecdote. IOW this will not change the opinion of any skeptic, but in the event that any experimenter (outside the USA, where this would be illegal here) has access to minerals containing radium - then boosting those minerals (and at the same time making the emission safer "softer") - is possible using Scandium. If I were in Sweden, with winter fast approaching, I would be out with a Geiger counter, looking for candidate materials ;-) The important point for a future where terrorism is not the overriding issue is - if natural radioactivity can be harnessed at all, the this rare metal Scandium can take a marginal process and make it commercial. It may be the one preferred route to take, because it allows the very strong, hard x-rays of certain emitters, to be both downshifted and multiplied. The risk/rewards formula is thereby drastically shifted. And one huge plus - to be covered in the upcoming Part II of this posting, is that it allow real energy production from nuclear waste. I suspect, and have some preliminary figures to back it up, that at some point in time, it will be possible to get more energy out of spent-fuel, than was ever extracted from it while it was in the reactor. IOW the so-called "spent fuel" is probably more valuable than the new stuff, when properly employed. What an absurd boondoggle we have in Nevada! But, the bad news is that the eventual time frame (for this possible "rediscovery") will likely have to await dealing with the issues of terrorism first. Its all about risk vs. rewards. The production of the first pound of pure scandium metal did not even occur until 1960, so it is clear that if Moray used a natural mineral, and his results were able to be replicated (ala Brown) - then pure Scandium is not required, probably only an enriched mineral ore. Scandium resembles yttrium and the rare-earth metals (and some hydrino catalysts) more than it resembles aluminum or titanium. It is a surprisingly light metal but has a much higher melting point than aluminum. Scandium is also acid-resistant, which is most unusual for a pure metal, and not attacked by a 1:1 mixture of HNO3 and 48% HF. Scandium oxide now costs about $75/g !.... which is far more than plutonium. But that is a function of limited demand more than anything else. There is actually more Scandium in surface minerals on earth than lead, lithium, boron or tin - all of which metals are used in tonnage at prices which are affordable. About 20 kg of scandium (as Sc2O3) are now being used yearly in the U.S. (2002) to produce high-intensity lights and unknown military uses. With an increased demand (tonnage level), the price would probably drop to about that of lithium. The important characteristic of Scandium goes back to the "metastable" state of deformed nuclei or nuclear isomers. Elements can be metastable (in the broadest definition) in either their electron or their nuclear configuration (sometimes called a nuclear isomer). Metastability is part-and-parcel of high-energy photon release, such as is seen in fluorescence. The photons in question for IPE are most often either EUV (extreme ultraviolet) or "soft" x-rays (gammas of less than 100 eV of mass energy). A photon chain reaction, as here defined, is a correlate of the nuclear chain reaction, but is always diminishing slowly and can't be made self-sustaining without an infinite amount of substrate media. This is because there are no real "reflectors" for soft x-rays, which are generally limited to induced auger photon emission from lower electron orbitals at a particular wavelength, or multiple thereof in an Auger cascade. Such a phenomenon, but in the extreme ultraviolet, has arguable been discovered and documented by Dr. Randell Mills, although he describes it far differently. A similar mechanism may be implicated in other forms of "cold fusion" as well, and in fact there is ample reason to believe that Mills' techniques might be better implemented with deuterium than with hydrogen from the standpoint of energy return. First - to clear up one point. Soft x-rays are not always appreciated to have a nuclear origin, except in the Mossbauer situation. Gammas from the nucleus are usually "hard". However, in certain elements and isotopes, the nuclear emission can be so tuned to the electron configuration of that atom, that it is most always captured (very high cross section) and consequently, instead of a 1 MeV emission, you will see many in the range of 20-60 keV (typical of Scandium). More on the actual devices I have in mind later... although with this Moray/ Hubbard background material, the "realization" as the French say, might be worth taking a hard (or soft) relook, when framed in the context of an enhanced radium (or spent fuel)/ scandium (boosted) power source. Paul, you left us way too soon.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 17:13:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R0D9WN032393; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:13:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R0D87W032361; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:13:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:13:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=I/FVVShAcf1G2l0mltyJIIYo0aRc/kvl7C6ewhndrt2xjEVsxyy5Tv7EB0s3hzbedZaoCSxTJEW2tEG6fQgKCBWvH9xW4tNolWN0CNlntnbrtyOfXJuolE9quvysQYy8MSgc5AOL06Uor1o6pX08CIDIXyBFDhXF56wsNYVP9oU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GSyJII/wKYuhikHH15HprT+HbVTo1WHDgNgWAoHA731mWOwCylG2X1DmNqp9ua6v01pR1ubqEThPfr1vBXzpdsecYoktOnCDWeLUM9U94x4aR1/2Ng5op0Cu0Jky2vHmHw+pSMdyx09jsfgXzFRPRFaUOTlu3uXlKi7faO0Ux38= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:13:05 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Blog.wired on Szpak et al. In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070326175947.03638ec0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070326175947.03638ec0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74065 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/26/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > http://blog.wired.com/defense/ > > Scroll down to: "Navy Discovers Cold Fusion (again)" Circles within circles. The author of your referenced article also wrote the book: http://www.imaginaryweapons.net/imaginary_weapons_climax.htm Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 17:37:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R0bQpF013676; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:37:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R0bPcX013657; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:37:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:37:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=PqgHM2CAC3YALfSW8ZDAiaENwHh1noHFUBwtkyfvNKJvtoEmYUM6f00jPSElYfhza5dnKhNnRbH7dPQdbD3D1cQ42TD3S4vc37edb2o8cPqlu1c1JN/O5ccN6p3LO9rDEUsm2QfQYq4AzCQ83BFMEzqm83Pqb6B9DzORJCUA4oA= ; Message-ID: <20070327003723.16610.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: JKvk2bwVM1kCFfbYBbA3wZOpyhXtwwK_9suYhsuehPdO1Jtf X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/468 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.8 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:37:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scandium To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74066 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, Aha ... imaginary weapons. Now I see why your are curious. It is hard to believe Collins missed Scandium, except that he had a mind-set for a laser gamma and not a gamma chain reaction. As I recall, Scandium 'induced emission' is one of the greatest anomalies for a natural element in the periodic table. It is similar to the Fe-57 Mossbauer emission or the iridium - in a way. Were it a coherent emission, like the Mossbauer, which it is not, the military would have tried to embargo the world supply. Not they they haven't tried to anyway. There should be an non-military energy use for it but nowadays only a few labs have access. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 17:46:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R0k2oI013366; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:46:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R0k1QS013346; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:46:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:46:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZHuNBX2+Gg3qpgJR+tZX1JdBFScOVN6QLOiIWqmVsic4Vb5fJjV4IBDN1IjBzp9rRtp3Wq5Jsi8sFVjKWD4n6nfSaG0RmDODVTeWK7yQIgBE99byQYjDYBVqimWx5exqIn3zD9YGdJ/Y18uILN2uodImflp1bo0+RgXdEUOj/2w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ReMJqe4M6ou/JUySH8UNOi0CyLptqE6j1En7pFtJm5Qmj0dEDo26WXQ25ryIKDGLLngDPferd4za7jnr/ntvHk/kTR3mq9R0QtK9sX+R5aooZq6a26I52o4jBeEA6PQtS9sILYpsB7DdBnfsEmQDOHxNOko8RLq9+kOr5b8wEFo= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:45:58 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scandium In-Reply-To: <20070327003723.16610.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070327003723.16610.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74067 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 3/26/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry, > > Aha ... imaginary weapons. Now I see why your are curious. Ackshully, there is a financial end to this. Consider hiring those fossil fuel hunters to find REE placers. One must consider *all* possibilities. ($75/g!! :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 17:50:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R0oKIO022420; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:50:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R0oJto022402; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:50:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:50:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: 700 years of OU? Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:49:55 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74068 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Robin, Nice to know I'm finally catching up to where the great minds have already been. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 3:48 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: 700 years of OU? > > > In reply to Steven Vincent Johnson's message of Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:18:14 > -0500: > Hi, > [snip] > >What I meant to say is it would not surprise me if a similar > analogy, a mechanism will be found at play when it comes to > certain kinds of LENR reactions. Perhaps specific EM frequencies > which in turn generate harmonics can be utilized to control the > accumulation of kinetic energy on an atomic scale, perhaps to > help overwhelm the Coulomb Barrier within crystalline structures. > It's the marching in-step of solders over a bridge analogy. > [snip] > This concept is embodied in the term "resonance", which can be > found throughout > the CF literature. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, > Cooperation (communism) provides the means. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 18:05:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R15RSM028129; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:05:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R15PrX028108; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:05:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:05:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=mqM/8QPcLsLdf6Me+wRRpZUkyAR5jTbt714Q5mji924tGCGyDlHIXGNZMNVK0A6L7n25z6FsLccZhPHbf0ltQ63bNMEFmXEVpM5WwAV3GG26E6JjTIxVCq0MjTbYGEe3J13mtwJFCyI75pZtdK0t3Ux/I08ngmBUzpQsS818+3A=; X-YMail-OSG: jlthwEkVM1nuq6rUg7A_Yq1QP1Z75keT5IH_p8lOIrCM544l X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/468 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.8 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:05:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: 700 years of OU? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Message-ID: <388983.20346.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74069 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven > a mechanism will be found at play when it comes to > certain kinds of LENR reactions. Perhaps specific EM frequencies > which in turn generate harmonics can be utilized to control the > accumulation of kinetic energy on an atomic scale, coincidental, but... Actually that is not far off from what Scandium seems to be doing .... as it seems that the Auger cascade which results from an absorbed gamma is somehow powered by a nuclear transition first and then a k-shell transition later.. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 18:48:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R1mFXo016638; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:48:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R1mDqD016613; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:48:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:48:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=MaYfSmuXR2SRPKyyCCe5URXO5ABk805VSWCEzNDagwtGTTdEwJiuhK/aDCnO8yLA; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <8045963.1174960091927.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:48:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: Blog.wired on Szpak et al. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c702016c86ce1dadb6f28ba013f66c547c57b32293cf8cbd6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.27 Resent-Message-ID: <1QufbC.A.fDE.dfHCGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74070 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Circles within circles. > >The author of your referenced article also wrote the book: > >http://www.imaginaryweapons.net/imaginary_weapons_climax.htm Yes. Also this: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Weinbergerwarmingupt.pdf For someone who as read as many papers as she has, she is pretty darn wishy-washy. Frankly I get sick of hearing that line about "I can't judge . . ." This one is particularly annoying: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ShamooAEeditorial.pdf The editor of "Accountability in Research" refuses to hold himself accountable. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 19:45:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R2jGVF017845; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:45:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R2jBnu017800; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:45:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:45:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scandium Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:45:09 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070327003723.16610.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20070327003723.16610.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:45:09 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74071 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:37:23 -0700 = (PDT): Hi, [snip] >Were it a coherent emission, like the Mossbauer, which it is not, the = military would have tried to embargo the world supply. Not they they = haven't tried to anyway. There should be an non-military energy use for = it but nowadays only a few labs have access. [snip] There is a non-military *non*-energy use for it. Scandium is sometimes = alloyed with Al in some bicycle frames. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 21:18:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R4IK0A028288; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:18:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R4IIr8028265; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:18:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:18:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quantum Thermodynamics Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:18:12 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5m3h035k3blimfgvl6jcskm5nfddv0guf5@4ax.com> References: <303f01c759f9$c0f6d880$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E36BD5.7060306@gmail.com> <306101c75a05$cb7e3210$3800a8c0@zothan> <45E383DF.8050602@gmail.com> <001601c75a55$458a9ae0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E44C9A.6040504@gmail.com> <004801c75acb$f6a248c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E58E5B.2050903@gmail.com> <005e01c75b49$2f398ef0$3800a8c0@zothan> <006901c75b96$4bde9990$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <45E65B72.8060701@pobox.com> <64ocu2p0u8tsfbncntvue62j4hqldm8s9d@4ax.com> <45E6F17E.8040707@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45E6F17E.8040707@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 27 Mar 2007 04:18:11 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74072 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:30:06 = -0500: Hi, [snip] >> DC component. I agree with you that a diode should produce the same = sort of >> thermal AC voltage as a resistor, however it should also rectify it's = own >> voltage. > >What you say is true, but there is an issue, which is that real diodes=20 >are not "perfect diodes": they have a nonzero forward voltage drop.=20 >What's more, they're not even "ideal diodes": the forward voltage drop=20 >is not constant. As you suggest, let's look at the current curve for a=20 >hypothetical "real diode", taken from Senturia and Wedlock, "Electronic=20 >Cicuits and Applications", p184 in my copy. It's given as > > i =3D I_S(e^(qv/kT) - 1) > >where I_S, q, and k are constants. I'm a bit out of my depth here, but since noise voltage is thermal in = origin, wouldn't q*v =3D k*T by definition? If so, then the current is constant, = and equal to 1.718 * I_S. I'm assuming that q is the charge on a free electron, v = is the thermal voltage, and k*T is the average thermal energy of these = electrons. IOW q*v is just charge x voltage =3D electron energy, but k*T is supposed= to represent the thermal energy of the electron. Since the electron only has= one energy at any given time, it seems they must both be different = expressions of the same entity, and hence identical. (Note that this is only true when = the voltage in question is the thermal voltage, not when it is an externally = imposed voltage). [snip] >I don't pretend to be able to analyze this situation in detail, but it=20 >appears to me, from the above formula, that for any realistic level of=20 >noise-induced charge on a cap hooked up across the diode, the charge is=20 >going to leak away through the diode long before the next probabilistic=20 >noise crest of sufficient magnitude to charge it up any farther comes = along. If I am correct hereabove, then the only requirement for charging the cap= would be that the leakage current < 1.718 x I_S. (My suspicious nature leads me= to suspect however that this may very well be the very definition of diode = leakage current.) :( > >> IOW a diode connected across a capacitor should eventually charge the = capacitor, >> if it's thermal voltage is current independent. > >But the more charge you get, the longer you have to wait for another=20 >noise "pulse" which exceeds that voltage, and the longer you have for=20 >the charge you already had accumulated to leak away through the diode. If you are using the power as it is provided, then this ceases to be a = problem. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 26 23:08:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R67nPv010184; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:07:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R67lEn010156; Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:07:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:07:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:07:46 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: MODERATOR: Michel Jullian removed from vortex In-Reply-To: <1bfd01c76f0a$0021ce00$3800a8c0@zothan> Message-ID: References: <1bfd01c76f0a$0021ce00$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74073 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, I think I've mulled about this sufficiently, and waited long enough to get clear perspective. My earlier opinion hasn't changed. Michel is removed for two weeks. After that time he can contact me about the situation. Michel clearly doesn't take the past week's events very seriously, but I do. As I said before, I see the whole thread as a classic example of the misbehavior known as "trolling." Trolling is hard to define, but people know it when they see it in others. (Harder to detect in onesself! That's why we must be very wary of rejecting criticism from fellow users.) Essentially trolling is "intentionally filling a forum with argument for its own sake, with unnecessary drama thrown in." The concealed intent of the troller, as perceived by other forum members, plays an enomous role. People can plainly see what the troller is trying to do, and trolling triggers nausea in onlookers. It's upsetting to watch. But onlookers will always fail to find specific evidence to which they can point as an explanation for their response. Trolling is very similar to the Wikipedia concept of "acting like a dick." See: Don't Be A Dick http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don't_be_a_dick Or much less kindly, don't be a member of the "anti-social" population: Don't be a FH http://amasci.com/weird/fckhead.html Michel does make positive contributions here, but in my opinion the negatives very significantly outweigh the positives. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb@eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 01:47:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2R8l3o4012555; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 01:47:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2R8kxfG012521; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 01:46:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 01:46:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 01:46:54 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74074 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: what does "Electrolysis" actually mean? Status: RO X-Status: For those not totally sick of this topic... :) Here's one research technique: use google "define:" command to search many random websites. http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+electrolysis Several of them have Ed Storms' usage, including a UK chemistry textbook: electrolysis is a chemical reaction or "change" caused by electric current. Other sites define it exclusively as decompostion. Clearly the word has multiple definitions in present use. There's also a missing definition with which I'm familiar: electrolysis is an entire class of phenomena, essentially meaning "electrochemistry of electrodes" rather than chemical reactions. Expert authors are free to use several definitions as needed, while knowning that their intended audience is sophisticated enough to derive the desired meaning from context. Then I wondered, with all the sound and fury of this past week, did anyone ever think to query Britannica? Does it settle on Ed Storms' usage, or on the older definition, or both? Here's "Britannica Concise." http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9363559 (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb@eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 08:09:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2RF9cbv016096; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:09:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2RF9aPq016076; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:09:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:09:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=eS+z1vT8D6a+CoqcKWyhVtoXOaExsO8NNQMcN2AYqotcpVMQzLW01nOEJbf03KQw9NJ8CtbW/yyUmpds8dk0khM2Ev/m21seS++AZBP99BqNySTsL8ehf2YCm4+8ET9Ozwr8eICr6cvJRZ0DTKKUGL2Lfj7x02dTZtqZ0Fvfcoc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=bm/2ATWsBBOPR/zvl5t95Sfga9w1lz+fIWaXFwJ/jSIJ7X3RnEbNK9xNYksV1Awl02203CIR7VGvV/RQukcbsqkjJb09ldDu3GRybORiKG0qjjnIe746Nek6LXXtMAs2ddwKawxmTLvT5wnPxPWqsLZD969y/tm65MFxe7tcuJI= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:09:32 -0500 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_12586_10779958.1175008172423" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74075 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ANY vortex-#191 Rply? Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_12586_10779958.1175008172423 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear all vo, so far.... ZERO comment: Cold Fusion Aqueous Anyone... any figures: > (A) electrolysis during CF (B) H and O liberated (C) Amount of H and O [or H2 and O2...in the proper ratio] (D) HOW much energy.... if you combine the H and the O??? Thermal??? Fuel cell ...or... bleet hawses... just how MUCH H and O for some given run? (E) IS ARE anyone wishing to let us know any of these amounts? what...SPECIFICALLY ARE THESE AMOUNTS (not a ""computation"" the real figures) (F) YOU Fail the test... all have failed if you can not report the O and H and let us know what energy this electrolysed water MIGHT contribute to the over all '''energy budget''' of some given CF work... (E) Toss heat and calori out!!! (G) GOOD... what is the H and O???? no one has responed in the last 12 years .... vo ------=_Part_12586_10779958.1175008172423 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
Dear all vo,
 
 so far.... ZERO comment:
 
Cold Fusion
Aqueous
 
    Anyone... any figures:
 
(A)  electrolysis during CF
 
 
(B)  H and O liberated
 
   (C)  Amount of H and O [or H2 and O2...in the proper ratio]
 
    (D)  HOW much energy.... if you combine the H and the O???  Thermal???
Fuel cell ...or... bleet hawses... just how MUCH H and O for some given run?
 
   (E)  IS ARE  anyone wishing to let us know any of these amounts?
 
        what...SPECIFICALLY ARE THESE AMOUNTS
 (not a ""computation"" the real figures)
   (F)  YOU Fail the test... all have failed if you can not report the O and H and
let us know what energy this electrolysed water MIGHT contribute to the over all
'''energy budget''' of some given CF work...
 (E)  Toss heat and calori out!!!
   (G)  GOOD... what is the H and O????
 
 
          no one has responed in the last 12 years .... vo
 

 
------=_Part_12586_10779958.1175008172423-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 08:18:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2RFImvj022487; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:18:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2RFIkDt022460; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:18:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:18:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=t64YI9GRheOu+Q84N13P0kdagPZrI2mUaJHvgwOw6PUdjmjcOnoN/vQlZsbp/QxTs4nl/Tc21hNwpCDzqdLZdh4+Jm9sJSzfAAm93PbQM0Lr2mFu5lTCvIXt7NZDpsshlIrfGNDiPnORwIcvIzvrrYOexXwvraYguh+Cb/P7D6U= ; X-YMail-OSG: 3Dcy0WoVM1ms6CUxJ69Qd5GZ.iZQMNWKbwDS1i4rE9hVxRs85DRFndoeEQ6lqfN6Tw6oY5mMicvzippWrUn3wOyhRPZes4RksHU9S59p98jeZw0BCgdsky_0KD3NBW7eq9iEmzTDtNc.NOrA Message-ID: <460935CC.80504@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:18:36 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74076 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: It came from Outer Space Status: O X-Status: Dust off your 3-D glasses, Ray-ban boys... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Came_From_Outer_Space Fifty years ago, scientists experimenting with gamma radiation to sterilize foods (gourmet sea-rats for out troops in hostile lands, aka C-rations) were surprised to find spoiled meat in cans zapped with what they thought were lethal levels of radiation. Any hungry PFC in Nam coulda told them that... Anyway, the boffins discovered a strain of bacteria now called Deinococcus radiodurans which can endure 100 times the rad levels that kill other bacteria and levels 2,000 times higher than the lethal human dose. http://www.rxpgnews.com/bacteriology/The_Strange_Case_of_the_Radiation-Resistant_Bacteria_21161.shtml How and why would such a bacteria would have evolved that trait on earth is one of the most 'pregnant' questions ever to have faced so-called 'creation scientists' (what a bunch of oxy-morons!), but anyway Bob-Jones-U grads are overly challenged to focus on sea-rats. Radiation resistant bacteria are one of nature's oddities, and there is the slight possibility that they evolved, NOT for earthy survival at all, since there are so few local spots where that trait would be of benefit. They are not even the primary bacteria found in uranium deposits. A surprising lesson to be learned from this and other fairy tales (spider avoidance): eat your 'curds and whey'... Many resistant bacteria have high manganese concentrations and for whatever reason, some of these strains are 'milkers' ...Lactobacillus plantarum ... for instance, is found in some yogurts, and release hydrogen peroxide as a product of the reactions that neutralize superoxide radicals, while sensitive and non-irradiated resistant bacteria do not. The researchers went on to show that the resistance of normal D. radiodurans can be controlled externally by inhibiting manganese redox recycling. All very interesting for the Bio-Mimic... and/or bug-eradicator in all of us. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 09:22:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2RGMVIZ004673; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:22:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2RGMSmH004650; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:22:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:22:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000901c7708c$1bd90bd0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <460935CC.80504@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:22:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74077 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: It came from Outer Space Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote, > Dust off your 3-D glasses, Ray-ban boys... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Came_From_Outer_Space > > Fifty years ago, scientists experimenting with gamma radiation to > sterilize foods (gourmet sea-rats for out troops in hostile lands, aka > C-rations) were surprised to find spoiled meat in cans zapped with what > they thought were lethal levels of radiation. > > Any hungry PFC in Nam coulda told them that... Anyway, the boffins > discovered a strain of bacteria now called Deinococcus radiodurans which > can endure 100 times the rad levels that kill other bacteria and levels > 2,000 times higher than the lethal human dose. > > http://www.rxpgnews.com/bacteriology/The_Strange_Case_of_the_Radiation-Resistant_Bacteria_21161.shtml > > How and why would such a bacteria would have evolved that trait on earth > is one of the most 'pregnant' questions ever to have faced so-called > 'creation scientists' (what a bunch of oxy-morons!), but anyway > Bob-Jones-U grads are overly challenged to focus on sea-rats. > > Radiation resistant bacteria are one of nature's oddities, and there is > the slight possibility that they evolved, NOT for earthy survival at all, > since there are so few local spots where that trait would be of benefit. > They are not even the primary bacteria found in uranium deposits. > > A surprising lesson to be learned from this and other fairy tales (spider > avoidance): eat your 'curds and whey'... > > Many resistant bacteria have high manganese concentrations and for > whatever reason, some of these strains are 'milkers' ...Lactobacillus > plantarum ... for instance, is found in some yogurts, and release hydrogen > peroxide as a product of the reactions that neutralize superoxide > radicals, while sensitive and non-irradiated resistant bacteria do not. > The researchers went on to show that the resistance of normal D. > radiodurans can be controlled externally by inhibiting manganese redox > recycling. > > All very interesting for the Bio-Mimic... and/or bug-eradicator in all of > us. Howdy Jones, We wrestle daily with the variants of water disinfection. After many years in the business, we recognze how little we humans actually understand about bacteria and virus as they relate to treating wastewater. About the time we engage the two critter families in battle, along comes steroids, birth control pills, antibiotics and all strange and wierd medicines, enhancers, etc that are entering our rivers, lakes and coastal waters. Some attribute global warming solely to human actions but the Gulf of Mexico off New Orleans is becoming a cesspool drain from the Mississippi. We labor daily toward treatment processes and admit we are falling behind the curve.. It is going to take some radical new science to gain an advantage. My hope continues to be toward LENR as a technology that has far reaching applications beyond becoming merely an energy source. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 09:48:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2RGmYEs020323; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:48:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2RGmX1c020309; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:48:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:48:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rHKUdenG4Z4dkokQOjkPjAYbKAJ5/vuYozyD/LxCqi7yQV5fEJ1kZU9vj9hvvJWOu2eGMD7rHd0RZA+HWL6c0zx1MT4rRiDG3PivVSx/2KLZzRbfBPED44mM4JcS04cuBz4MP2x8+EjriAvKTRggxXv2sys+OIF/nzRcGWVjLg8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CBgst5sYuPYfWlo3dTwu8lLyBaOzQdrp+YNRA/q10h6J1a/HH53oylPUaTyZAEJgQFTtO0KMhcFyv7vCDYVNPWXCXG/NZ965MS9+eFCx54Y8ksnWxa2HwJdZDbGPRxXzsNZCoEupagcu3Cd56cJrFZv1U1vJmyK/knisgzt2xGg= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:48:31 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ANY vortex-#191 Rply? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <-dZrcD.A.J9E.hrUCGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74078 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ever hear of Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis "The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely. The efficiency is a measure of what fraction of electrical energy used is actually contained within the hydrogen. Some of the electrical energy is converted to heat, a useless by-product. Some reports quote efficiencies between 50=9670%[1] This efficiency is based on the Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen. The Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen is thermal energy released when Hydrogen is combusted. This does not represent the total amount of energy within the Hydrogen, hence the efficiency is lower than a more strict definition. Other reports quote the theoretical maximum efficiency of electrolysis. The theoretical maximum efficiency is between 80=9694%.[2]. The theoretical maximum considers the total amount of energy absorbed by both the hydrogen and oxygen. These values only refer to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included. For instance, when considering a power plant that converts the heat of nuclear reactions into hydrogen via electrolysis, the total efficiency is more like 25=9640%." Different CF experiments handle electrolysis in different ways. Some recombine the gases while some simply account for the loss of gases and ssome ignore the gas loss. Try reading some papers at lenr.org On 3/27/07, john herman wrote: > > Dear all vo, > > so far.... ZERO comment: > > Cold Fusion > Aqueous > > Anyone... any figures: > > > (A) electrolysis during CF > > > (B) H and O liberated > > (C) Amount of H and O [or H2 and O2...in the proper ratio] > > (D) HOW much energy.... if you combine the H and the O??? Thermal??= ? > Fuel cell ...or... bleet hawses... just how MUCH H and O for some given r= un? > > (E) IS ARE anyone wishing to let us know any of these amounts? > > what...SPECIFICALLY ARE THESE AMOUNTS > (not a ""computation"" the real figures) > (F) YOU Fail the test... all have failed if you can not report the O = and > H and > let us know what energy this electrolysed water MIGHT contribute to the o= ver > all > '''energy budget''' of some given CF work... > (E) Toss heat and calori out!!! > (G) GOOD... what is the H and O???? > > > no one has responed in the last 12 years .... vo > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 10:04:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2RH4VFd010020; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:04:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2RH4SrE009993; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:04:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:04:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:04:29 -0700 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <13165312.1174993469@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74079 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Engineering Bacteria to Harvest Light Status: O X-Status: This is pretty cool! http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/18436/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 10:12:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2RHBti4002045; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:11:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2RHBo3n002016; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:11:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:11:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=L0ACvIobAEpNyFNPHEn/RePFljceG7n6ulfxv2G1Uuwd7fLZ0R3QgYUZdYLA2woSOQrUGcYTSZbu2lRM7xPzTU/CIgGDaCwQzVsdQekvZ5OBoZNBJUSznyfNPfOKUM7Hv2e15ZudV8oLxvX9x9nUQJt0Kqqzb1mYyz0byzjax8Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=b/rFyv5GGJOqI/lt9UU6ZgHK5sS5sn6hM+vjTIMLuYZEDXJJ4JX9vihKZ7I+v+zNqADDsJ3Ys+/4nZXNa3OibgxQDaflkEg3CRI/Jf4/f8EpfBDVZrVDJvm38fLbxX/e4l0n4WfQy5ayYpjpnOWKIpf5lgERLE9HPDCWsCIlB48= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:11:48 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Engineering Bacteria to Harvest Light In-Reply-To: <13165312.1174993469@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <13165312.1174993469@localhost> Resent-Message-ID: <5l60bB.A.bf.VBVCGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74080 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice. theres also work now to put more traditional photosynthesis into such beasties as yeast. But thats a lot more complex work. On 3/27/07, Ron Wormus wrote: > This is pretty cool! > > http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/18436/ > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 11:24:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2RIOF28024117; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:24:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2RIOChE024088; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:24:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:24:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:21:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC Calculator museum In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070326145538.03685d48@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74081 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A hand held mechanical calculator. (No, it is not a slide rule) http://www.vcalc.net/cu.htm Perhaps mechanical calculators/computers will make a come back with nanoscale technology?! Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > This is fun, in a geeky kind of way: >=20 > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/calcs.html >=20 > Here are great pictures of a Friden electro-mechanical calculator: >=20 > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstw.html >=20 > And a video! The video shows the Friden > multiplying and dividing 4 and 5 digit numbers, > operations which took several seconds and were > accompanied by marvelous clicking, banging, crashing and bells ringing: >=20 > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/fridenstwvid.html >=20 > It reminds me of a sign supposedly posted by the > U.K. ATLAS supercomputer in the 1960s, as quoted > by Stan Kelly-Bootle in "The Devil=92s DP Dictionary": >=20 >=20 > ACHTUNG!! ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS!! >=20 > Das computermachien ist nicht f=FCr gefingenpoken > and mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der > springenwerk, bowenfusen und poppencorken mit > spitzensparken. Ist nicht f=FCr gewerken bei da > dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen > hans in das pockets muss; relaxen and watch das blinkenlichten. >=20 >=20 > - Jed >=20 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 18:55:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2S1tF2M015687; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:55:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2S1tCwG015667; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:55:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:55:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: "Vortex" Cc: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:54:49 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74082 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Michel Jullian, and the "critic" within us all Status: RO X-Status: SUBJECT: Michel Jullian, and the "critic" within us all Since Michel Jullian has been banned for two weeks, and as such, cannot speak on his own behalf I feel compelled to say something (almost by proxy) on his behalf in an unofficial capacity. Michel did not ask me to speak for him, nor did I solicit Michel for his opinions. The following are my opinions and my opinions alone. Recently there appeared to have been what might be considered a reconciliation concerning the Ed Storm's electrolysis title definition. I gather there may have been private conversations that transpired between Michel and Ed. I bring to Vort's attention the following post from Michel, Dated March 25, 2007: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > SUBJECT: [VO]: MJ-ES terminology controversy > > In the spirit of international friendship, Michel > and Ed have agreed that the title of the paper used > by Ed (1) while not strictly academic is technically > unambiguous and emphasizes well the role of the > palladium cathode, and the title suggested by Michel > (2) is more academic but emphasizes less the role of > the cathode. Both approaches are acceptable. > Therefore, no conflict exists. > > (1) "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of > Palladium using a Heavy-Water Electrolyte" (2) > "Anomalous Heat Produced by Electrolysis of a > Heavy-Water Electrolyte using a Palladium Cathode" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Michel's post suggests at least to me a concerted effort on his part to find an honorable way out of his recent actions, and in the process come to a reconciliation that he can live with. What is interesting about Michel's post is that no official public apology (as had been requested by the Vort moderator, and perhaps indirectly by others including myself) is likely to be forthcoming. As such, a question many may find themselves asking is whether Michel has really "learned his lesson". I would guess that Mr. Beaty as concluded: No, he hasn't. Instead of a public apology I can suggest what I believe might be a more worthy "sentence". It is the sentence of self-reflection. Has Michel had the opportunity to learn something important - in the same manner that we all hopefully learn something important and useful in our interactions with others. I really don't know. Nevertheless, this recent reconciliation of sorts does gives me an unexpected glimpse into Michel, a perception I think is worth mentioning here since it's an issue I suspect most of us must deal with throughout all of our lives. I'm referring to the matter of "JUDGMENT", which in this case manifested in the actions of criticizing the technical terminology used in Ed's title. A question worth asking is: who was really judging whom. Ironically, the most important person of all had been left out of the judgment process. It's been my experience that when people seem to become fixated on criticizing specific issues pertaining to the works of others it's often a glimpse into how they are ultimately judging themselves, their own behavior, their own worthiness as an individual. Judging one's own worthiness is indeed a scary issue fraught with many pitfalls. Often, this form of judgment can be completely unconscious, ESPECIALLY when it comes to judging the most personal and intimate part of themselves. As such, the "critic" within is often running on autopilot, pulling and jerking strings here and there, and in the process irritating the hell out of everyone who is unfortunate to come in contact with them. To be honest, in my view, a public apology is irrelevant. What I personally hope Michel would instead find the time for would be to make an effort to become more aware of the "critic" within, that he become more conscious of how it occasionally can manipulate his posting behavior. Truth of the matter is: We ALL have a "critic" within. It would be ridiculous to single Michel out on this matter. It's just that Michel's "critic" became, in this incident, blatantly obvious. So, what happens when one finally begins to observe the "critic" within? First of all, don't pass judgment on its behavior as it attempts to pass down another one of its incessant sentences. That would, ironically, be more of the same insanity at work. The point I'm trying to make here is if one can start observing the "critic" within (such as in regards to terminology used to describe a topic title) one suddenly has a brand new choice they never knew they could make. The choice being: Is it really worth it to continue perpetuating the existence of the "critic" within. If one chooses to say "No, I don't need to follow those orders anymore", do not be surprised if the "critic" immediately retaliates and passes additional judgments against you. That's just the "critic" within, the false persona's way of telling the Observer that it feels truly threatened. It SHOULD feel threatened, cuz barking out orders to be followed to the letter is the only way it can justify its own existence. In time, however, if one chooses not to follow those incessant demands any longer the "critic" within will begin to fade away leaving more of the real essence of You to engage others in ways that make others want to interact and learn what they can from you, to value your contributions. Why do I even bother to make this suggestion? I have no doubt that Michel is extremely smart, intelligent, and well as educated both formally and informally. Also, as the moderator has stated Michel has made "positive contributions" Truth of the matter is, the real reason I've made these suggestions is: It takes a "dick" to know another "dick." One final thought: Some may ask what-in-the-tarnation is all this pop-psychobabble doing here cluttering up the vortex discussion list. Isn't Vortex-l about the exploration of AE? When did discussions start rambling off into these touchy-feely topics where thinly veiled layers of mysticism seem to be thrown in just to spice things up. It hasn't, of course. I chose to bring this particular "touchy-feely" issue to the Vort forefront because, IMHO, if one hopes to explore the mysteries of AE in all of its surprising and occasionally controversial facets it really behooves one to become as centered within the sacredness of their own Being-ness as possible. This is impossible to do if one must constantly serve the whims of the "critic" within. Performing AE R&D is hard enough work all by itself. Who really has energy to spare feeding the needs of the useless "critic" within whose only purpose in life is to stay in control - to justify its own survival. I, for one, hope to see Michel back in two weeks. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 19:21:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2S2LYBl011905; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:21:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2S2LSr9011840; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:21:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:21:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DD2sHgOlyVhdfP/0VHH/bIPFduOkuzt6rRlb49e5QfgnbSQySnFeplcxhnqU8uSeP9BmnsSglqxEnTB+f8oHQGRortn3tNfz98MB3pBV6egc7Mt29z7ijAJo9NhBXpW9OShdk6AGfJ0UQTSfe1EMpjkgeoSqW069m8+Ug3/vBEs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=V8+NJcI4fSZmzSCEAay25D0dQYl33QWgviN0jAQ1qnOq8iZEpbJyOv/tS+ZuNEItkTFH58tfpzcgd5v9I3Gq8eIJG1J3g4tWbyrIBooQwngYleGJCDJEtKcS2Ie1QPWBbQf3TEI1V77I9VBcgZibqP3cJ+nScjawS7l2MstuGIc= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:21:25 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Michel Jullian, and the "critic" within us all In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25310_3244595.1175048485929" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74083 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_25310_3244595.1175048485929 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/28/07, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > Truth of the matter is, the real reason I've made these > suggestions is: It takes a "dick" to know another "dick." No, no it doesn't. ------=_Part_25310_3244595.1175048485929 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/28/07, Steven Vincent Johnson <orionworks@charter.net> wrote:
Truth of the matter is, the real reason I've made these
suggestions is: It takes a "dick" to know another "dick."

No, no it doesn't.

------=_Part_25310_3244595.1175048485929-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 27 19:24:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2S2NukR000774; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:23:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2S2NscB000753; Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:23:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:23:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GFTkUzY8BUz7BBfmIkGfMum8X1hyRJfM8DboRNmXH1fUga46BzCBa7OfgCJink+9EZdy+wnUrkzoPmlDSNa64G/qKEb/dTeMgBKf1nqSJmiGBnR3I9e7StkbJmczzFdX71GEzwqbIqQ99Pg6QSLmjapsfbeCj6+I+JdW4x1s7aU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WioTr0EN/ejWZ4BSnAljKqQ/R9b/J5xIbxSrTlGwvbxaKxoNmwxwmBISEJ4QBvx1TMqEynnqzaanEeuJ3aQoKKMKZzzsr1uOQJ05/pzxvLvSSB3g98hcsqu5wAupKWHeMnCRUfena1h/faLMmi9p37RKA7xzMNchOKTwLalfg58= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:23:53 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Michel Jullian, and the "critic" within us all In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74084 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 3/27/07, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > I, for one, hope to see Michel back in two weeks. IMO, MJ is a pathological skeptic. I had many off-list conversations with him re: the Sprain magmo. He was insistant that we had the current probe in the wrong position. No amount of evidence was able to convince him that we were accurately measuring the input current. As Keith Nagel pointed out, it is the voltage measurement which might be questioned. Even the visual evidence proved that the current measurement was accurate. But the evidence did not support the conclusion that MJ had reached. His sketicism was as pathological as that of Robert "Arbor Day" Parks. This type of skepticism is not in keeping with the open-minded basis of the Vortex forum. Again, IMO, when he comes back, he will end up being permanently banned. It is indeed a pity since he is a bright individual; however, I do not believe he belongs on this forum. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 01:21:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2S8KvBr021688; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:20:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2S8Kt2U021664; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:20:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:20:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c77112$025f2b90$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:20:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74085 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Michel Jullian, and the "critic" within us all Status: RO X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:- <> Well, they probably will but I found the central idea valuable so I'm saving it to my "wise words" (miscellaneous) folder. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 06:21:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SDLXPK005850; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:21:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SDLUcJ005826; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:21:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:21:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:21:28 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_53adc0f490c5055ef14d1d8e0bd73863" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070328132653.AC8FBBFC62@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74086 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Beer, laziness result in cold fusion device Status: RO X-Status: --=_53adc0f490c5055ef14d1d8e0bd73863 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: Beer, laziness result in cold fusion device My kind of CF inventor! http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/lifestyle/orl-grief2807mar28,0,2632019.story?coll=orl-home-lifestyle http://tinyurl.com/2qe7d6 Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_53adc0f490c5055ef14d1d8e0bd73863 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: Beer, laziness result in cold fusion device

My kind of CF inventor!

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/lifestyle/orl-grief2807mar28,0,2632= 019.story?coll=3Dorl-home-lifestyle
http://tinyurl.com/2qe7d6

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_53adc0f490c5055ef14d1d8e0bd73863-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 07:38:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SEcnkm010386; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:38:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SEclaU010349; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:38:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:38:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328102842.03759900@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:38:05 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74088 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: Here is a message from calcars-news. [calcars-news] Lester Brown: Diversion of Grain=20 to Fuel Cars Raises World Food Prices This week the auto-makers met with President=20 Bush, once again pointing to their support for=20 flex-fuel vehicles as their main answer to high=20 oil prices and dependency on imported oil. (In an=20 acknowledgment of the President's interest in=20 PHEVs, Ford towed in a fuel cell PHEV concept=20 car, and DaimlerChrysler announced it was=20 committing to build 20 plug-in hybrid Sprinter van prototypes.) Lester Brown, author of Plan B 2.0, has been a=20 long-time advocate of PHEVs, and was one of the=20 first to predict that auto-makers easy embrace of=20 corn ethanol would create a price war between=20 food and fuel. Here he traces the results as they ripple through the= economy. Massive Diversion of U.S. Graint to Fuel Cars is=20 Raising World Food Prices March 21, 2007 - 3 http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/2007/Update65.htm Lester R. Brown, Earth Policy Institute If you think you are spending more each week at=20 the supermarket, you may be right. The escalating=20 share of the U.S. grain harvest going to ethanol=20 distilleries is driving up food prices worldwide. Corn prices have doubled over the last year,=20 wheat futures are trading at their highest level=20 in 10 years, and rice prices are rising too. In=20 addition, soybean futures have risen by half. A=20 Bloomberg analysis notes that the soaring use of=20 corn as the feedstock for fuel ethanol =93is=20 creating unintended consequences throughout the global food chain.=94 The countries initially hit by rising food prices=20 are those where corn is the staple food. In=20 Mexico, one of more than 20 countries with a=20 corn-based diet, the price of tortillas is up by=20 60 percent. Angry Mexicans in crowds of up to=20 75,000 have taken to the streets in protest,=20 forcing the government to institute price controls on tortillas. Food prices are also rising in China, India, and=20 the United States, countries that contain 40=20 percent of the world=92s people. While relatively=20 little corn is eaten directly in these countries,=20 vast quantities are consumed indirectly in meat,=20 milk, and eggs in both China and the United States. Rising grain and soybean prices are driving up=20 meat and egg prices in China. January pork prices=20 were up 20 percent above a year earlier, eggs=20 were up 16 percent, while beef, which is less=20 dependent on grain, was up 6 percent. In India, the overall food price index in January=20 2007 was 10 percent higher than a year earlier.=20 The price of wheat, the staple food in northern=20 India, has jumped 11 percent, moving above the world market price. In the United States, the U.S. Department of=20 Agriculture projects that the wholesale price of=20 chicken in 2007 will be 10 percent higher on=20 average than in 2006, the price of a dozen eggs=20 will be up a whopping 21 percent, and milk will=20 be 14 percent higher. And this is only the beginning. In the past, food price rises have usually been=20 weather related and always temporary. This=20 situation is different. As more and more fuel=20 ethanol distilleries are built, world grain=20 prices are starting to move up toward their=20 oil-equivalent value in what appears to be the beginning of a long-term= rise. The food and energy economies, historically=20 separate, are now merging. In this new economy,=20 if the fuel value of grain exceeds its food=20 value, the market will move it into the energy=20 economy. As the price of oil climbs so will the price of food. Some 16 percent of the 2006 U.S. grain harvest=20 was used to produce ethanol. With 80 or so=20 ethanol distilleries now under construction,=20 enough to more than double existing ethanol=20 production capacity, nearly a third of the 2008=20 grain harvest will be going to ethanol. Since the United States is the leading exporter=20 of grain, shipping more than Canada, Australia,=20 and Argentina combined, what happens to the U.S.=20 grain crop affects the entire world. With the=20 massive diversion of grain to produce fuel for=20 cars, exports will drop. The world=92s breadbasket=20 is fast becoming the U.S. fuel tank. The number of hungry people in the world has been=20 declining for several decades, but in the late=20 1990s the trend reversed and the number began to=20 rise. The United Nations currently lists 34=20 countries as needing emergency food assistance.=20 Many of these are considered failed and failing=20 states, including Chad, Iraq, Liberia, Haiti, and=20 Zimbabwe. Since food aid programs typically have=20 fixed budgets, if the price of grain doubles, food aid will be reduced by= half. Urban food protests in response to rising food=20 prices in low and middle income countries, such=20 as Mexico, could lead to political instability=20 that would add to the growing list of failed and=20 failing states. At some point, spreading=20 political instability could disrupt global economic progress. Against this backdrop, Washington is consumed=20 with =93ethanol euphoria.=94 President Bush in his=20 State of the Union address set a production goal=20 for 2017 of 35 billion gallons of alternative=20 fuels, including grain-based and cellulosic=20 ethanol, and liquefied coal. Given the current=20 difficulties in producing cellulosic ethanol at a=20 competitive cost and given the mounting public=20 opposition to liquefied coal, which is far more=20 carbon-intensive than gasoline, most of the fuel=20 to meet this goal might well have to come from=20 grain. This could take most of the U.S. grain=20 harvest, leaving little grain to meet U.S. needs,=20 much less those of the hundred or so countries that import grain. The stage is now set for direct competition for=20 grain between the 800 million people who own=20 automobiles, and the world=92s 2 billion poorest=20 people. The risk is that millions of those on the=20 lower rungs of the global economic ladder will=20 start falling off as higher food prices drop=20 their consumption below the survival level. In February 2007 the World Food Programme=20 Director James T. Morris reported that 18,000=20 children are now dying every day from hunger and=20 malnutrition. This daily loss of life is six=20 times the number of U.S. combat fatalities in=20 Iraq over the last four years.There are=20 alternatives to this grim scenario. A rise in=20 auto fuel efficiency standards of 20 percent,=20 phased in over the next decade would save as much=20 oil as converting the entire U.S. grain harvest into ethanol. One option that is gaining momentum is a shift to=20 plug-in hybrids. Adding a second storage battery=20 to a gas-electric hybrid car along with a plug-in=20 capacity so that the batteries can be recharged=20 at night allows most short-distance driving=ADdaily=20 commuting and grocery shopping, for example=ADto be=20 done with electricity. If this shift were=20 accompanied by investment in thousands of wind=20 farms that could feed cheap electricity into the=20 grid, then cars could run largely on electricity=20 for the equivalent cost of $1 per gallon gasoline. Encouragingly, three auto manufacturers=ADToyota,=20 Nissan, and GM=ADhave announced plans to bring=20 plug-in hybrid cars to market. Plug-In Partners,=20 which is spearheading a national campaign to=20 shift to plug-in hybrid cars, already has 508=20 partners, including electrical utilities,=20 corporations, state and city governments, and=20 farm and environmental groups. Among its=20 fast-growing list of partners are the American=20 Public Power Association, Electric Power Research=20 Institute, American Wind Energy Association,=20 American Corn Growers Association, and the cities=20 of Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago, and Boston.=20 Already a number of Partners have collectively=20 pledged to purchase for their own fleets more=20 than 8,000 plug-in hybrids as soon as they reach the market. Ethanol euphoria is not an acceptable substitute=20 for a carefully thought through policy. For=20 Washington, it is time to decide whether to=20 continue with the current policy of subsidizing=20 more and more grain-based fuel distilleries or to=20 encourage a shift to more fuel-efficient cars and=20 a new automotive fuel economy centered on plug-in=20 hybrid cars and wind energy. The choice is=20 between a future of rising world food prices,=20 spreading hunger, and growing political=20 instability, or one of stable food prices,=20 sharply reduced dependence on oil, and much lower carbon emissions. At http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/2007/Update65.htm you can find links to many sources of additional information. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Felix Kramer fkramer@calcars.org Founder California Cars Initiative http://www.calcars.org http://www.calcars.org/news-archive.html -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 07:40:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SEe2vw011217; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:40:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SEVx16003725; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:31:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:31:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016101c77145$cc3361b0$1c00420a@uesc.net> From: "Orson" To: "vortex" Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:31:38 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_015E_01C7712C.A60F9FD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74087 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: USAF News Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_015E_01C7712C.A60F9FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.isria.info/FILES/2007/MARCH/03282007__8.htm ------=_NextPart_000_015E_01C7712C.A60F9FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://ww= w.isria.info/FILES/2007/MARCH/03282007__8.htm
------=_NextPart_000_015E_01C7712C.A60F9FD0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 09:51:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SGopsC031117; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:50:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SGomuT031065; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:50:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:50:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:50:43 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7630390==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74089 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Selected pages from Storms book Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_7630390==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed See: Storms, E., The Science Of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction. 2007: World Scientific Publishing Company. Selected pages from the book, including the Preface and Table of Contents: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEthescience.pdf - Jed --=====================_7630390==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" See:

Storms, E., The Science Of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction. 2007: World Scientific Publishing Company.

Selected pages from the book, including the Preface and Table of Contents:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEthescience.pdf

- Jed
--=====================_7630390==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 09:55:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SGtd09001304; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:55:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SGtcXT001285; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:55:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:55:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328125136.03754d48@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:55:32 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74090 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Szpak triggers on-line discussions Status: RO X-Status: The paper from Szpak has triggered several on-line discussions, such as this one: cr4.globalspec.com/thread/6384/cold-fusion These are mostly filled with ignorant skeptical blather, but in some cases people who know about cold fusion post information. I added a message to this thread. I find out about these discussions when they generate downloads from links to LENR-CANR.org. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 10:35:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SHZaMo027236; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:35:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SHZYUw027219; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:35:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:35:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328133417.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:35:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Selected pages from Storms book In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74091 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I modified the document to include the WallMart link. This is probably the first serious book about cold fusion available at WallMart. That's pretty neat! - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 10:37:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SHbLgL028627; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:37:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SHbJpn028605; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:37:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:37:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=eVwpF20s1vvaFaedEudC4c06xaHs4D65WnDD2ot7iE4xUnUGjgJOhAO8Vpbs/TSNQeLtJifk9uupsbKmEOqYnsGAkDI6n15Fm0XahEeFCDqLBsKCr95GIrD4ZJRS9b6Tilv1K5LH5R3MpDUzjGoqQnOqswwISHintZWZoh+DNnE= ; X-YMail-OSG: J8n3aUMVM1kZ1RpRT8leYg3iOO2y5VTf2.rwlTIb.9BID_KCkjrhvUZzjJn4ZWIhtihkYGy8myLdlVIfV7siBBgdgKzg6rSJnOp22m9gQJoj7dOIR64- Message-ID: <460AA7CC.40008@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:37:16 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Selected pages from Storms book References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <9klc9C.A.0-G.PfqCGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74092 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Don't know if Ed is listening and wishes to make a comment on the=20 following point, which he apparently mentions in the new book. Gene Mallove had written (IE, issue 52) a review of ICCF10 in which he=20 referred to Ed's replication of the Letts-Cravens Effect and said "In my = view, there were three absolutely fundamental scientific high points: 1. Laser-Driven Excess Heat: What is now being called the Letts-Cravens=20 Effect=97 excess heat stimulated by laser light irradiation of cold fusio= n=20 electrolytic cell cathodes (see IE #50, pp. 10-15)" Mallove continued: this has now been independently observed by three=20 outside groups: Dr. Michael McKubre of SRI International, Dr. Edmund=20 Storms in New Mexico, and Dr. Mitchell Swartz in Wellesley, Massachusetts= =2E [Ed mentions this on p.46 of "The Science Of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions= "] Mallove: Low-level laser light power is input and a huge power excess=20 emerges, for example: 30 milliwatts input, 1 watt output (a 30-fold=20 multiplication of input power), though this now rides on top of a much=20 higher electrical input power that is initially in thermal balance (i.e. = no excess). This is evidently a highly repeatable effect=97 one that has = the potential of breaking through into numerous other labs around the=20 world." END To many, this replication of a potential breakthrough by three=20 independent and highly qualified researchers "should have" engendered=20 the same overall effect (in the wider physics community) as the recent=20 SPAWAR reports ! and indeed -- in many ways it still seems potentially=20 more significant AND also rather SIMILAR in many ways. Yet... there has never been a good public explanation for why that=20 particular niche (laser irradiation) seems to have ended up in relative=20 obscurity - NOT going directly into a more advanced prototype in the USA = =2E.. although last year at APS an international collaboration of=20 researchers in Italy, Israel, and here used laser irradiation and the=20 Letts-Cravens Effect successfully. But no huge advance was claimed. Steve Krivit had made a vague reference to it going "classified" but=20 that seemed a bit tongue-in-cheek: http://www.newenergytimes.com/Conversations/Cravens.htm Dennis Craven's hardly refers to it anymore: http://www.netmdc.com/%7Ephysics/ Was Mallove's enthusiasm premature? and/or was the Letts-Cravens Effect=20 not as much of a fundamental breakthrough as he had envisioned in 2003 ? Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: >=20 > Storms, E., /The Science Of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction/. 2007: World=20 > Scientific Publishing Company. >=20 > Selected pages from the book, including the Preface and Table of Conten= ts: >=20 > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEthescience.pdf >=20 > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 10:49:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SHncH0004080; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:49:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SHnb2G004061; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:49:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:49:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=A4ab5/vRW2Wan5HYNUI4B13mQfJ/q9Rgpar5IM1DloeeRmVBDr+8YCCfSZXKEZ1pg9MZY1jG9hqEUoiIckUe0EAgN6D4ajGljcBikMYYjaZt6s3YUs4DNFvM4kjivkJYRH99vHE7tddZ/sD0iPPdVqAM2boL0oqGuX/5PVHb7q4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=JbeNLTqD20n58i4bBVxMVfDfqyNOwA278oQEG3/ykZbA+1XQc+bg48oIc7HP69RnNcejpQT1LcP4hbujiOdVh6/w6rwK7fcOAOjy2ee2aVJCfJ9m0vO4yBFtnzohSc+B5fShzszULaKXFmcxgCUn0bfHtTbbTAQRO0+b7Mzmw6U= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:49:35 -0500 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "hermajohn@gmail.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_36256_19138819.1175104175989" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74093 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: now .. oohhooohhh Really vortex-digest Digest V2007 #193 Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_36256_19138819.1175104175989 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo, Here is another "gift": BBGB [love it] HBNBBandS engineering .... all you all and all'y'all can translate: Real world: (BN..if you want more... contact off line) (A) Glass jar [used to contain tomato sauce] (B) In the sun ... in the day... and in the dark... in the night....... (C) Two electrodes.... mainly non reactive.... in this case titanium (D) went down by the river ... with a glass jar... and acquired some alge (E) rinsed same with water.... over and over... In the day..... electric current in one direction.... as photosyn happened... In the night ...current in the other direction.... respiration... bio battery..... more to coem...should ANYONE be interested ------=_Part_36256_19138819.1175104175989 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Dear Vo,
 
 Here is another "gift":
 
    BBGB [love it] HBNBBandS engineering ....
all you all and all'y'all can translate:
 
 Real world:
 
 (BN..if you want more... contact off line)
 
(A)  Glass jar [used to contain tomato sauce]
(B)  In the sun ... in the day... and in the dark... in the night.......
(C)  Two electrodes.... mainly non reactive.... in this case titanium
(D)   went down by the river ... with a glass jar... and acquired some alge
(E)  rinsed same with water.... over and over...
 
        In the day..... electric current in one direction.... as photosyn happened...
        In the night ...current in the other direction.... respiration...
 
 bio battery..... more to coem...should ANYONE be interested
 
------=_Part_36256_19138819.1175104175989-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 10:57:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SHv3Np019404; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:57:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SHv0w9019381; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:57:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:57:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <460AAD0D.5080005@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:59:41 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Selected pages from Storms book References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> <460AA7CC.40008@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <460AA7CC.40008@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74094 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The laser effect has proven difficult to replicate, Jones, as is common in this field. However, enhanced nuclear activity stimulated by the additional energy supplied by a laser is expected. Once the basic effect can be replicated on demand, I expect the laser will be used to reveal details about the mechanism. The challenge is to master the process, not simply try new things that only work on a few occasions and then can not be explained by a useful theory. The scientific community, as well as us in the field, are waiting for a robust effect. The infrequent and difficult to reproduce efforts are nice to keep interest alive in the field, but they do not and will not attract much attention elsewhere. Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Don't know if Ed is listening and wishes to make a comment on the > following point, which he apparently mentions in the new book. > > Gene Mallove had written (IE, issue 52) a review of ICCF10 in which he > referred to Ed's replication of the Letts-Cravens Effect and said "In my > view, there were three absolutely fundamental scientific high points: > > 1. Laser-Driven Excess Heat: What is now being called the Letts-Cravens > Effect— excess heat stimulated by laser light irradiation of cold fusion > electrolytic cell cathodes (see IE #50, pp. 10-15)" > > Mallove continued: this has now been independently observed by three > outside groups: Dr. Michael McKubre of SRI International, Dr. Edmund > Storms in New Mexico, and Dr. Mitchell Swartz in Wellesley, Massachusetts. > > [Ed mentions this on p.46 of "The Science Of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions"] > > Mallove: Low-level laser light power is input and a huge power excess > emerges, for example: 30 milliwatts input, 1 watt output (a 30-fold > multiplication of input power), though this now rides on top of a much > higher electrical input power that is initially in thermal balance (i.e. > no excess). This is evidently a highly repeatable effect— one that has > the potential of breaking through into numerous other labs around the > world." END > > To many, this replication of a potential breakthrough by three > independent and highly qualified researchers "should have" engendered > the same overall effect (in the wider physics community) as the recent > SPAWAR reports ! and indeed -- in many ways it still seems potentially > more significant AND also rather SIMILAR in many ways. > > Yet... there has never been a good public explanation for why that > particular niche (laser irradiation) seems to have ended up in relative > obscurity - NOT going directly into a more advanced prototype in the USA > ... although last year at APS an international collaboration of > researchers in Italy, Israel, and here used laser irradiation and the > Letts-Cravens Effect successfully. But no huge advance was claimed. > > Steve Krivit had made a vague reference to it going "classified" but > that seemed a bit tongue-in-cheek: > http://www.newenergytimes.com/Conversations/Cravens.htm > > Dennis Craven's hardly refers to it anymore: > http://www.netmdc.com/%7Ephysics/ > > Was Mallove's enthusiasm premature? and/or was the Letts-Cravens Effect > not as much of a fundamental breakthrough as he had envisioned in 2003 ? > > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> See: >> >> Storms, E., /The Science Of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction/. 2007: World >> Scientific Publishing Company. >> >> Selected pages from the book, including the Preface and Table of >> Contents: >> >> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEthescience.pdf >> >> - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 11:00:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SI0lGt021007; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:00:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SI0k3W020993; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:00:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:00:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:58:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Selected pages from Storms book In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328133417.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74095 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I couldn't find the link in the document. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > I modified the document to include the WallMart link. > > This is probably the first serious book about cold fusion available > at WallMart. That's pretty neat! > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 11:28:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SIS5ZJ030589; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:28:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SIS41n030568; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:28:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:28:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:25:57 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Selected pages from Storms book In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <4NICXC.A.gdH.zOrCGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74096 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: oh, sorry I downloaded the newer document. Harry Harry Veeder wrote: > I couldn't find the link in the document. > Harry > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> I modified the document to include the WallMart link. >> >> This is probably the first serious book about cold fusion available >> at WallMart. That's pretty neat! >> >> - Jed >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 12:59:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SJxAR6020663; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:59:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SJx0Sf020577; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:59:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:58:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328154927.03767eb8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:58:46 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <460AAD0D.5080005@ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> <460AA7CC.40008@pacbell.net> <460AAD0D.5080005@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74097 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Laser stimulation Status: RO X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >The laser effect has proven difficult to replicate, Jones, as is >common in this field. However, enhanced nuclear activity stimulated >by the additional energy supplied by a laser is expected. Once the >basic effect can be replicated on demand, I expect the laser will be >used to reveal details about the mechanism. I think it is very likely that the laser can only stimulate the effect. So can a heat pulse. However, if there is no NAE and the CF effect is not occurring in the first place, laser light or heat will not trigger it. So the laser effect is as difficult to replicate as CF itself is. In other words, people who cannot trigger a CF effect in the first place will derive no benefit from lasers. As Jones Beene noted, researchers in Israel and at SRI confirmed that the laser does enhance the CF effect. So did Storms. I do not know of anyone else who has tried, so as far as I know, replications are 3 for 3. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 13:46:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2SKk2t3025325; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:46:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2SKk0xe025290; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:46:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:46:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328164520.03767eb8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:45:53 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Laser stimulation In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328154927.03767eb8@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> <460AA7CC.40008@pacbell.net> <460AAD0D.5080005@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070328154927.03767eb8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74098 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Violante et al. also reported successful laser stimulation. See: http://www.iscmns.org/iccf12/ViolanteV.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 18:30:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2T1TsMc026847; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:29:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2T1TmfU026778; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:29:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:29:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004301c771a1$ba43b020$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328124952.0373e1f8@mindspring.com> <460AA7CC.40008@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Selected pages from Storms book Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:29:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74099 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote.. >Steve Krivit had made a vague reference to it going "classified" but that >seemed a bit tongue-in-cheek: >Dennis Craven's hardly refers to it anymore: Around 1991 after the collapse of Russia, Duke U was given the opportunity to "purchase" a Free electron laser system(FEL) from Russia including two scientists. Duke U used DOE money to amke the buy. Under wraps ever since including ancilliary research by two other US universities. Mess with trying to learn what they are up to and the NSA knocks on your door. Leave it alone. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 28 18:54:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2T1seSl004140; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:54:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2T1sdEV004123; Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:54:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:54:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <460B1C56.1030405@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:54:30 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328102842.03759900@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328102842.03759900@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7dzIZC.A.WAB.fxxCGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74100 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here is a message from calcars-news. > >Encouragingly, three auto manufacturers­Toyota, Nissan, and GM­have announced >plans to bring plug-in hybrid cars to market. Plug-In Partners, which is spearheading Now if one of the groups who have been talking about a permanent magnet motor which would recharge the batterys, come through. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 09:30:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2TGU7NC016143; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:30:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2TGU55d016126; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:30:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:30:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329122727.03635a60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:29:51 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74101 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Wired on-line article about fusion Status: RO X-Status: Here is a fairly long article, covering many interesting fusion experiments such as Bussard's work, and even Naudin. It includes the usual garbage about cold fusion, that it was not replicated. See: http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/03/fusion_0329 I added a comment. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 11:45:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2TIjiv1015091; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:45:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2TIjgnh015070; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:45:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:45:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Rick Highsurf" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Wired on-line article about fusion Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:45:04 -1000 Organization: Highsurf.com Message-ID: <00c501c77232$63d2a930$f601a8c0@RicksL2000> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: AcdyH6rk68rjN4XtQNKBnQ8iZcbsIAAEOX7w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329122727.03635a60@mindspring.com> X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - kappa.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: <7lHHg.A.UrD.VlADGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74102 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ..And the author added two more in response, both of them helping helping to illustrate that: 1) He never did have an understanding of the historical facts about which he was writing. 2) Those facts wouldn't have mattered to him anyway with that kind of piece: start with a premise, use what tends to support the premise of your piece and ignore the rest, and make up or embellish what you don't have handy because it's easier and quicker than doing solid research on the subject. He's just another pop media hack. Your comments were kind since they were absent of any direct criticism, just pointers to the facts, and it seemed to tip his canoe a bit. Good Job! - Rick -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 6:30 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Wired on-line article about fusion Here is a fairly long article, covering many interesting fusion experiments such as Bussard's work, and even Naudin. It includes the usual garbage about cold fusion, that it was not replicated. See: http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/03/fusion_0329 I added a comment. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 12:07:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2TJ7lAx025567; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:07:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2TJ7jOK025528; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:07:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:07:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329150519.03635a60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:07:39 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]: Wired on-line article about fusion In-Reply-To: <00c501c77232$63d2a930$f601a8c0@RicksL2000> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070329122727.03635a60@mindspring.com> <00c501c77232$63d2a930$f601a8c0@RicksL2000> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18596140==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74103 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_18596140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Rick Highsurf wrote: >..And the author added two more in response, both of them helping helping to >illustrate that: > >1) He never did have an understanding of the historical facts about which he >was writing. > >2) Those facts wouldn't have mattered to him anyway with that kind of piece: Darn right. I wrote a longish response to his inane comments. See: http://blog.wired.com/articlecomment/2007/03/fusion_experime.html#comment-64799564 I was careful not to directly accuse MIT of fraud. I wrote "Three of the 1989 'failures' were quite famous, at Harwell, CalTech and MIT, and they have often been cited as proof that cold fusion does not exist. However, after careful reexamination by experts, the first two were shown to be positive, and the third, at MIT, was either fraudulent or in error. The original raw data showed clear signs of excess heat, but for some reason a modified version of the graph was published, and in the published version the data points were lowered. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MalloveEmitspecial.pdf - Jed --=====================_18596140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Rick Highsurf wrote:

..And the author added two more in response, both of them helping helping to
illustrate that:

1) He never did have an understanding of the historical facts about which he
was writing.

2) Those facts wouldn't have mattered to him anyway with that kind of piece:

Darn right.

I wrote a longish response to his inane comments. See:

http://blog.wired.com/articlecomment/2007/03/fusion_experime.html#comment-64799564

I was careful not to directly accuse MIT of fraud. I wrote

"Three of the 1989 'failures' were quite famous, at Harwell, CalTech and MIT, and they have often been cited as proof that cold fusion does not exist. However, after careful reexamination by experts, the first two were shown to be positive, and the third, at MIT, was either fraudulent or in error. The original raw data showed clear signs of excess heat, but for some reason a modified version of the graph was published, and in the published version the data points were lowered. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MalloveEmitspecial.pdf

- Jed
--=====================_18596140==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 13:56:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2TKuLAb009091; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:56:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2TKu9oO008805; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:56:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:56:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:54:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_mC+qj0sNGgaoQo4UB1hL7g)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <4ItYp.A.BJC.nfCDGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74104 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_mC+qj0sNGgaoQo4UB1hL7g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This paper explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of weak interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons. The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below. I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's New Energy Times. The paper also mentions that laser light could be used but I do not see any references to the experiments that have already been done with laser light. Harry -------- Eur.Phys.J.C (2006) THE EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL C Digital Object Identifier (DOI)10.1140/epjc/s2006-02479-8 Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces A.Widom 1,a ,L.Larsen 2 1 Physics Department,Northeastern University,110 Forsyth Street,Boston MA 02115,USA 2 Lattice Energy LLC,175 North Harbor Drive,Chicago IL 60601,USA Received:3 October 2005 / Published online:9 March 2006 Springer-Verlag /Societ`a Italiana di Fisica 2006 Abstract. Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions in metallic hydride system surfaces are discussed.Weak interaction catalysis initially occurs when neutrons (along with neutrinos)are produced from the protons that capture =B3heavy =B2electrons.Surface electron masses are shifted upwards by localized condensed matter electromagnetic fields.Condensed matter quantum electrodynamic processes may also shift the densities of final states,allowing an appreciable production of extremely low momentum neutrons, which are thereby efficiently absorbed by nearby nuclei.No Coulom= b barriers exist for the weak interaction neutron production or other resulting catalytic processes. In summary, weak interactions can produce neutrons and neutrinos via the capture by protons of heavy electrons. The collective motions of the surfac= e metallic hydride protons produce the oscillating electric fields that renormalize the electron self energy, adding significantly to the effective mass. There is no Coulomb barrier obstruction to the resulting neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions. The final products (A,Z) X in some reaction chains may have fairly high A .The above examples show that final products such as (4,2) He do not necessarily constitute evidence for the direct fusion D +D --> (4,2) He. Direct fusion requires tunnelling through a high Coulomb barrier. By contrast, there are no such barriers to weak interactions and ultra low momentum neutron catalysis. Final products such as (4,2) He and /or (3,2) He and /or (3,1) H may be detected.=20 --Boundary_(ID_mC+qj0sNGgaoQo4UB1hL7g) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions
This paper explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium
production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of w= eak
interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons.

The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below.
I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's
New Energy Times.

The paper also mentions that laser light could be used
but I do not see any references to the experiments
that have already been done with laser light.

Harry
--------


Eur.Phys.J.C (2006)

THE EUROPEAN
PHYSICAL JOURNAL C

Digital Object Identifier (DOI)10.1140/epjc/s2006-02479-8

Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions
on metallic hydride surfaces

A.Widom 1,a ,L.Larsen 2

1 Physics Department,Northeastern University,110 Forsyth Street,Boston MA 0= 2115,USA
2 Lattice Energy LLC,175 North Harbor Drive,Chicago IL 60601,USA

Received:3 October 2005 /
Published online:9 March 2006 Springer-Verlag /Societ`a Italiana di Fisica = 2006

Abstract.
Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions in metallic
hydride system surfaces are discussed.Weak interaction catalysis initially =
occurs when neutrons (along with neutrinos)are produced from the protons that capture =B3heavy =B2electrons.Surface electron masses are shifted upwards =
by localized condensed matter electromagnetic fields.Condensed matter
quantum electrodynamic processes may also shift the densities of final
states,allowing an appreciable production of extremely low momentum
neutrons, which are thereby efficiently absorbed by nearby nuclei.No Coulom= b
barriers exist for the weak interaction neutron production or other
resulting catalytic processes.

<snip>

In summary, weak interactions can produce neutrons and neutrinos via the capture by protons of heavy electrons. The collective motions of the surfac= e
metallic hydride protons produce the oscillating electric fields that
renormalize the electron self energy, adding significantly to the effective=
mass. There is no Coulomb barrier obstruction to the resulting neutron
catalyzed nuclear reactions. The final products (A,Z) X in some reaction chains may have fairly high A .The above examples show that final products =
such as (4,2) He do not necessarily constitute evidence for the direct
fusion D +D --> (4,2) He. Direct fusion requires tunnelling through a hi= gh
Coulomb barrier. By contrast, there are no such barriers to weak
interactions and ultra low momentum neutron catalysis. Final products such =
as (4,2) He and /or (3,2) He and /or (3,1) H may be detected.
--Boundary_(ID_mC+qj0sNGgaoQo4UB1hL7g)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 13:57:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2TKvkEa029320; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:57:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2TKvfmW029305; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:57:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:57:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:56:03 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: mj@exbang.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_DppNZ9WqpjoPzbeWDk7xHQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74105 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_DppNZ9WqpjoPzbeWDk7xHQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This paper explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of weak interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons. The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below. I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's New Energy Times. The paper also mentions that laser light could be used but I do not see any references to the experiments that have already been done with laser light. Harry -------- Eur.Phys.J.C (2006) THE EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL C Digital Object Identifier (DOI)10.1140/epjc/s2006-02479-8 Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces A.Widom 1,a ,L.Larsen 2 1 Physics Department,Northeastern University,110 Forsyth Street,Boston MA 02115,USA 2 Lattice Energy LLC,175 North Harbor Drive,Chicago IL 60601,USA Received:3 October 2005 / Published online:9 March 2006 Springer-Verlag /Societ`a Italiana di Fisica 2006 Abstract. Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions in metallic hydride system surfaces are discussed.Weak interaction catalysis initially occurs when neutrons (along with neutrinos)are produced from the protons that capture =B3heavy =B2electrons.Surface electron masses are shifted upwards by localized condensed matter electromagnetic fields.Condensed matter quantum electrodynamic processes may also shift the densities of final states,allowing an appreciable production of extremely low momentum neutrons, which are thereby efficiently absorbed by nearby nuclei.No Coulom= b barriers exist for the weak interaction neutron production or other resulting catalytic processes. In summary, weak interactions can produce neutrons and neutrinos via the capture by protons of heavy electrons. The collective motions of the surfac= e metallic hydride protons produce the oscillating electric fields that renormalize the electron self energy, adding significantly to the effective mass. There is no Coulomb barrier obstruction to the resulting neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions. The final products (A,Z) X in some reaction chains may have fairly high A .The above examples show that final products such as (4,2) He do not necessarily constitute evidence for the direct fusion D +D --> (4,2) He. Direct fusion requires tunnelling through a high Coulomb barrier. By contrast, there are no such barriers to weak interactions and ultra low momentum neutron catalysis. Final products such as (4,2) He and /or (3,2) He and /or (3,1) H may be detected.=20 --Boundary_(ID_DppNZ9WqpjoPzbeWDk7xHQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions
This paper explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium
production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of w= eak
interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons.

The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below.
I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's
New Energy Times.

The paper also mentions that laser light could be used
but I do not see any references to the experiments
that have already been done with laser light.

Harry
--------


Eur.Phys.J.C (2006)

THE EUROPEAN
PHYSICAL JOURNAL C

Digital Object Identifier (DOI)10.1140/epjc/s2006-02479-8

Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions
on metallic hydride surfaces

A.Widom 1,a ,L.Larsen 2

1 Physics Department,Northeastern University,110 Forsyth Street,Boston MA 0= 2115,USA
2 Lattice Energy LLC,175 North Harbor Drive,Chicago IL 60601,USA

Received:3 October 2005 /
Published online:9 March 2006 Springer-Verlag /Societ`a Italiana di Fisica = 2006

Abstract.
Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions in metallic
hydride system surfaces are discussed.Weak interaction catalysis initially =
occurs when neutrons (along with neutrinos)are produced from the protons that capture =B3heavy =B2electrons.Surface electron masses are shifted upwards =
by localized condensed matter electromagnetic fields.Condensed matter
quantum electrodynamic processes may also shift the densities of final
states,allowing an appreciable production of extremely low momentum
neutrons, which are thereby efficiently absorbed by nearby nuclei.No Coulom= b
barriers exist for the weak interaction neutron production or other
resulting catalytic processes.

<snip>

In summary, weak interactions can produce neutrons and neutrinos via the capture by protons of heavy electrons. The collective motions of the surfac= e
metallic hydride protons produce the oscillating electric fields that
renormalize the electron self energy, adding significantly to the effective=
mass. There is no Coulomb barrier obstruction to the resulting neutron
catalyzed nuclear reactions. The final products (A,Z) X in some reaction chains may have fairly high A .The above examples show that final products =
such as (4,2) He do not necessarily constitute evidence for the direct
fusion D +D --> (4,2) He. Direct fusion requires tunnelling through a hi= gh
Coulomb barrier. By contrast, there are no such barriers to weak
interactions and ultra low momentum neutron catalysis. Final products such =
as (4,2) He and /or (3,2) He and /or (3,1) H may be detected.
--Boundary_(ID_DppNZ9WqpjoPzbeWDk7xHQ)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 15:08:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2TM7jo3014355; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:07:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2TM7hix014327; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:07:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:07:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c7724e$a79f29b0$6698163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328102842.03759900@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:07:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74106 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:38 AM Subject: [Vo]: > Against this backdrop, Washington is consumed with "ethanol euphoria." > President Bush in his State of the Union address set a production goal for > 2017 of 35 billion gallons of alternative fuels, including grain-based and > cellulosic ethanol, and liquefied coal. If anyone ever needed damning evidence that Bush is a dumbass, there it is. ... For some reason, Cheney reminds me of the galactic emperor from Return of the Jedi.... --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 15:24:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2TMOVVs032457; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:24:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2TMOUQJ032442; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:24:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:24:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DnuRoOoM7fDvZjAeN81/ntb/YdpEHst9uCE+LaCDD8PWY2+wA/nF3zOb0tRndY2ihkGOcpi2tHCkjZ8RBR+F3DlGvp3vyg2KquuhlZvghSruzWniJ5lUOR7mZVVHIoMSmglO79xrL+h14nawKZygABEVHFB8polj07+lAv/i/Xw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cp8WQbjbdIPAR7q1MewdDrq8AcnFxz64GiqwB53mhvtNx+OzvH6dGpadeLP+7E+kBLQaNldZjcLZbp+PmqlAluzPXfPtHWpkzk++bo//16b6vzthINggT4Yz2jEG5/7zftEPsvp0OwpCAX7fudUpD1MT2tRztkGZRdU1TaO/ycI= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:24:25 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: In-Reply-To: <001701c7724e$a79f29b0$6698163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_66202_15045323.1175207065184" References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328102842.03759900@mindspring.com> <001701c7724e$a79f29b0$6698163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74107 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_66202_15045323.1175207065184 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/30/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > If anyone ever needed damning evidence that Bush is a dumbass, there it > is. Good job that's the only evidence... ------=_Part_66202_15045323.1175207065184 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 3/30/07, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
If anyone ever needed damning evidence that Bush is a dumbass, there it is.

Good job that's the only evidence...
 


------=_Part_66202_15045323.1175207065184-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 18:43:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2U1gpof013674; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:42:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2U1gmwX013640; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:42:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:42:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070329204410.04cb10f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:46:11 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7821486==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74108 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7821486==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed that would be the Letts-Cravens laser effect At 04:56 PM 3/29/2007 -0500, you wrote: >This paper explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium >production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of weak >interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons. > >The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below. >I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's >New Energy Times. > >The paper also mentions that laser light could be used >but I do not see any references to the experiments >that have already been done with laser light. > >Harry >-------- --=====================_7821486==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" that would be the Letts-Cravens laser effect


At 04:56 PM 3/29/2007 -0500, you wrote:

This paper explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium
production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of weak
interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons.

The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below.
I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's
New Energy Times.

The paper also mentions that laser light could be used
but I do not see any references to the experiments
that have already been done with laser light.

Harry
--------
--=====================_7821486==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 18:51:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2U1pDaM019123; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:51:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2U1pCcK019102; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:51:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:51:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070329205146.04ca4848@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:54:40 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8330488==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74109 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Katharine Sanderson - Nature Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_8330488==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I had the pleasure to meet Ms. Sanderson today. If she keeps up her good reporting she may put me out of a job. From Chicago O'Hare airport... Steve http://blogs.nature.com/thescepticalchymist/2007/03/acs_cold_fusion_anyone.html ACS: Cold fusion anyone? Things are winding down here. I just went along to the session on cold fusion (read the story here), but my expert timing meant that I arrived just in time for the break. Never mind, I was treated to an advance showing of one of the talks yesterday. I have to admit, I was skeptical, but this is pretty cool stuff. As Frank Gordon, one of the cold fusion scientists said to me, "this actually looks like real science" - and he's right. In spite of all the disdain that the field is treated with, the cold fusion people I met were all very positive cheerful people, all completely convinced by their research and with what look like compelling arguments. Even the programme chair for this session (not a cold fusion scientist) told me that he was impressed by the results being presented. He's keeping an open mind on the matter. That's quite a way for the field to come since it was laughed almost out of existence in 1989. Gordon was keen to tell me that since they have been quietly plugging away at their work they have not come under attack in the same way Pons and Fleischmann did. "The silence has been deafening" he said. Cold fusion? I don't know, but the evidence that something weird is happening is there. Maybe it's time to think about this again... --=====================_8330488==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I had the pleasure to meet Ms. Sanderson today. If she keeps up her good reporting she may put me out of a job.

From Chicago O'Hare airport...

Steve


http://blogs.nature.com/thescepticalchymist/2007/03/acs_cold_fusion_anyone.html

ACS: Cold fusion anyone?

Things are winding down here. I just went along to the session on cold fusion (read the story here), but my expert timing meant that I arrived just in time for the break. Never mind, I was treated to an advance showing of one of the talks yesterday. I have to admit, I was skeptical, but this is pretty cool stuff. As Frank Gordon, one of the cold fusion scientists said to me, "this actually looks like real science" - and he's right.

In spite of all the disdain that the field is treated with, the cold fusion people I met were all very positive cheerful people, all completely convinced by their research and with what look like compelling arguments. Even the programme chair for this session (not a cold fusion scientist) told me that he was impressed by the results being presented. He's keeping an open mind on the matter. That's quite a way for the field to come since it was laughed almost out of existence in 1989. Gordon was keen to tell me that since they have been quietly plugging away at their work they have not come under attack in the same way Pons and Fleischmann did. "The silence has been deafening" he said.

Cold fusion? I don't know, but the evidence that something weird is happening is there. Maybe it's time to think about this again...

--=====================_8330488==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 19:39:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2U2dWhb018233; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:39:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2U2dU1i018208; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:39:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:39:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:37:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions In-reply-to: <5.2.0.9.2.20070329204410.04cb10f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_3qYcwol4sYmtan2D7mYThg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-0gJuC.A.ccE.ihHDGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74110 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_3qYcwol4sYmtan2D7mYThg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In your opinion, is the theory of Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions the best theory to date? What do other people think? Harry Steven Krivit wrote: that would be the Letts-Cravens laser effect At 04:56 PM 3/29/2007 -0500, you wrote: This paper explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of weak interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons. The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below. I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's New Energy Times. The paper also mentions that laser light could be used but I do not see any references to the experiments that have already been done with laser light. Harry -------- --Boundary_(ID_3qYcwol4sYmtan2D7mYThg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear  reactions In your opinion, is the theory of Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions
the best theory to date?


What do other people think?

Harry

Steven Krivit wrote:

that would be the Letts-Cravens laser effect


At 04:56 PM 3/29/2007 -0500, you wrote:

This paper explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium
production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of weak
interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons.

The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below.
I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's
New Energy Times.

The paper also mentions that laser light could be used
but I do not see any references to the experiments
that have already been done with laser light.

Harry
--------


--Boundary_(ID_3qYcwol4sYmtan2D7mYThg)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 19:45:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2U2j25v015485; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:45:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2U2j1WC015475; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:45:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:45:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:43:28 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Katharine Sanderson - Nature In-reply-to: <5.2.0.9.2.20070329205146.04ca4848@mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_rnQfknBDdsPTm6W8WqQuOQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74111 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_rnQfknBDdsPTm6W8WqQuOQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Perhaps Physics Today will carry something in its April issue... Harry Steven Krivit wrote: I had the pleasure to meet Ms. Sanderson today. If she keeps up her good reporting she may put me out of a job. >From Chicago O'Hare airport... Steve http://blogs.nature.com/thescepticalchymist/2007/03/acs_cold_fusion_anyone.h tml ACS: Cold fusion anyone? Things are winding down here. I just went along to the session on cold fusion (read the story here ), but my expert timing meant that I arrived just in time for the break. Never mind, I was treated to an advance showing of one of the talks yesterday. I have to admit, I was skeptical, but this is pretty cool stuff. As Frank Gordon, one of the cold fusion scientists said to me, "this actually looks like real science" - and he's right. In spite of all the disdain that the field is treated with, the cold fusion people I met were all very positive cheerful people, all completely convinced by their research and with what look like compelling arguments. Even the programme chair for this session (not a cold fusion scientist) told me that he was impressed by the results being presented. He's keeping an open mind on the matter. That's quite a way for the field to come since it was laughed almost out of existence in 1989. Gordon was keen to tell me that since they have been quietly plugging away at their work they have not come under attack in the same way Pons and Fleischmann did. "The silence has been deafening" he said. Cold fusion? I don't know, but the evidence that something weird is happening is there. Maybe it's time to think about this again... --Boundary_(ID_rnQfknBDdsPTm6W8WqQuOQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: [Vo]: Katharine Sanderson - Nature Perhaps Physics Today will carry something in its April issue...
Harry


Steven Krivit wrote:

I had the pleasure to meet Ms. Sanderson today. If she keeps up her good reporting she may put me out of a job.

>From Chicago O'Hare airport...

Steve


http://blogs.nature.com/thescepticalchymist/2007/03/acs_cold_fusion_anyone.html

ACS: Cold fusion anyone?
Things are winding down here. I just went along to the session on cold fusion (read the story here <http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070326/full/070326-12.html> ), but my expert timing meant that I arrived just in time for the break. Never mind, I was treated to an advance showing of one of the talks yesterday. I have to admit, I was skeptical, but this is pretty cool stuff. As Frank Gordon, one of the cold fusion scientists said to me, "this actually looks like real science" - and he's right.

In spite of all the disdain that the field is treated with, the cold fusion people I met were all very positive cheerful people, all completely convinced by their research and with what look like compelling arguments. Even the programme chair for this session (not a cold fusion scientist) told me that he was impressed by the results being presented. He's keeping an open mind on the matter. That's quite a way for the field to come since it was laughed almost out of existence in 1989. Gordon was keen to tell me that since they have been quietly plugging away at their work they have not come under attack in the same way Pons and Fleischmann did. "The silence has been deafening" he said.

Cold fusion? I don't know, but the evidence that something weird is happening is there. Maybe it's time to think about this again...



--Boundary_(ID_rnQfknBDdsPTm6W8WqQuOQ)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 20:28:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2U3RwZq001991; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:27:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2U3RvKv001980; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:27:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:27:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=eUtnzASWQNIS7NDFtfh+kmSXoQfVTwoU7rsKFf9IRwmeCM60cHFAxBFexDrb8u8L; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <24334347.1175225274984.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: Katharine Sanderson - Nature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c218918b87d0a39b1117d8bd4a639616dc99af199f8107469350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.30 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74113 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >I had the pleasure to meet Ms. Sanderson today. If she keeps up her good >reporting she may put me out of a job. Wrong. If she keeps up her good reporting she will put herself out of a job. In one month or less -- I guarantee it. Many reporters have filed one truthful story about cold fusion, but they never file another. They are told to shut up, or they are fired. (Or so they have told me.) No joke. Besides, click to the link on her story and you will see it is full of the usual garbage about CF never being reproduced, or what an embarrassment it was, and bla, bla, bla. She repeated all the tired old lies without checking them. She has not stepped out of line except in her blog, and I am sure the editors at Nature will set her straight, and see to it that she never violates the party line again. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 23:23:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2U6Naei018351; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:23:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2U6NXXp018329; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:23:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:23:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:22:31 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20070329204410.04cb10f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta08sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:22:30 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74114 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:37:58 -0500: Hi, [snip] >In your opinion, is the theory of Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed >nuclear reactions =20 >the best theory to date? [snip] I think that if you read Ed Storms new book, you will have a good idea of= what is a better theory. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 29 20:12:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2U3BtmF002292; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:11:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2U3Bsnc002276; Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:11:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:11:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:10:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, 4DWorldx <4DWorldx@yahoogroups.com>, PatternVill@yahoogroups.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_kCT8RDd8WowDvVjMFD6Vhw)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74112 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_kCT8RDd8WowDvVjMFD6Vhw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This paper published in THE EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL C explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of weak interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons. If this is the correct explanation then the phenomena is not really the result of nuclear fusion, but of some other known nuclear reactions. The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below. I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's New Energy Times. http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library/2006Widom-UltraLowMomentumNeutronCata= l yzed.pdf The paper also mentions that laser light could be used but I do not see any references to the experiments that have already been done with laser light. Harry -------- Eur.Phys.J.C (2006) THE EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL C Digital Object Identifier (DOI)10.1140/epjc/s2006-02479-8 Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces A.Widom 1,a ,L.Larsen 2 1 Physics Department,Northeastern University,110 Forsyth Street,Boston MA 02115,USA 2 Lattice Energy LLC,175 North Harbor Drive,Chicago IL 60601,USA Received:3 October 2005 / Published online:9 March 2006 Springer-Verlag /Societ`a Italiana di Fisica 2006 Abstract. Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions in metallic hydride system surfaces are discussed.Weak interaction catalysis initially occurs when neutrons (along with neutrinos)are produced from the protons that capture =B3heavy =B2electrons.Surface electron masses are shifted upwards by localized condensed matter electromagnetic fields.Condensed matter quantum electrodynamic processes may also shift the densities of final states,allowing an appreciable production of extremely low momentum neutrons, which are thereby efficiently absorbed by nearby nuclei.No Coulom= b barriers exist for the weak interaction neutron production or other resulting catalytic processes. In summary, weak interactions can produce neutrons and neutrinos via the capture by protons of heavy electrons. The collective motions of the surfac= e metallic hydride protons produce the oscillating electric fields that renormalize the electron self energy, adding significantly to the effective mass. There is no Coulomb barrier obstruction to the resulting neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions. The final products (A,Z) X in some reaction chains may have fairly high A .The above examples show that final products such as (4,2) He do not necessarily constitute evidence for the direct fusion D +D --> (4,2) He. Direct fusion requires tunnelling through a high Coulomb barrier. By contrast, there are no such barriers to weak interactions and ultra low momentum neutron catalysis. Final products such as (4,2) He and /or (3,2) He and /or (3,1) H may be detected.=20 --Boundary_(ID_kCT8RDd8WowDvVjMFD6Vhw) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions

This paper published in THE EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL C
explains the _evidence_ of excess heat and helium
production in "cold fusion" type experiments in terms of w= eak
interactions and ultra low momentum neutrons.

If this is the correct explanation then the phenomena
is not really the result of nuclear fusion, but of some other
known nuclear reactions.

The abstract and the concluding paragraph are below.
I downloaded the entire paper from Steve Kirvit's
New Energy Times.

http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library/2006Widom-UltraLowMomentumNeutronCata= lyzed.pdf

The paper also mentions that laser light could be used
but I do not see any references to the experiments
that have already been done with laser light.

Harry
--------


Eur.Phys.J.C (2006)

THE EUROPEAN
PHYSICAL JOURNAL C

Digital Object Identifier (DOI)10.1140/epjc/s2006-02479-8

Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions
on metallic hydride surfaces

A.Widom 1,a ,L.Larsen 2

1 Physics Department,Northeastern University,110 Forsyth Street,Boston MA 0= 2115,USA
2 Lattice Energy LLC,175 North Harbor Drive,Chicago IL 60601,USA

Received:3 October 2005 /
Published online:9 March 2006 Springer-Verlag /Societ`a Italiana di Fisica = 2006

Abstract.
Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions in metallic
hydride system surfaces are discussed.Weak interaction catalysis initially =
occurs when neutrons (along with neutrinos)are produced from the protons that capture =B3heavy =B2electrons.Surface electron masses are shifted upwards =
by localized condensed matter electromagnetic fields.Condensed matter
quantum electrodynamic processes may also shift the densities of final
states,allowing an appreciable production of extremely low momentum
neutrons, which are thereby efficiently absorbed by nearby nuclei.No Coulom= b
barriers exist for the weak interaction neutron production or other
resulting catalytic processes.

<snip>

In summary, weak interactions can produce neutrons and neutrinos via the capture by protons of heavy electrons. The collective motions of the sur= face
metallic hydride protons produce the oscillating electric fields that
renormalize the electron self energy, adding significantly to the effective=
mass. There is no Coulomb barrier obstruction to the resulting neutron =
catalyzed nuclear reactions. The final products (A,Z) X in some reaction chains may have fairly high A .The above examples show that final products =
such as (4,2) He do not necessarily constitute evidence for the direct
fusion D +D --> (4,2) He. Direct fusion requires tunnelling through a hi= gh
Coulomb barrier. By contrast, there are no such barriers to weak
interactions and ultra low momentum neutron catalysis. Final products such =
as (4,2) He and /or (3,2) He and /or (3,1) H may be detected.
--Boundary_(ID_kCT8RDd8WowDvVjMFD6Vhw)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 01:12:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2U8Bo5x022181; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 01:11:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2U8BlD2022135; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 01:11:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 01:11:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:11:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6ehp039edg65gl29oqb45nvtrcnjakb2nu@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta06ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:11:43 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74115 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ion source Status: O X-Status: Hi, Can someone who seen a 10mA ion source tell me approximately how big they= tend to be (order of magnitude)? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 03:15:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UAFcUR007045; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UAFarW007032; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:10:34 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <_T93ZD.A.wtB.INODGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74116 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magnetic Electric Plasma Confinement Status: O X-Status: I contributed the first part of this to the fusion topic at wired: May I present a possibly practical hot fusion machine that I have been thinking of for years that combines magnetic and electric fields for critique as an open source offering. The magnetic part is provided by hoop coils in a row like a egg shaped wire and paper lantern with the largest diameter hoop in the center and progressively smaller diameter hoops at the ends. The current in the center coil is much greater than that of the other coils so the magnetic field has a small waist in the center. The hoops are held by a strong insulating material which supports an electric gradient with the center grounded and both ends positively charged. The thermonuclear plasma is securely held because it cant escape either from the center for magnetic reasons or the ends for electrical reasons. The plasma will become positively charged leading to the advantage that fewer electrons will radiate thermal blackbody energy wastefully. The curves of the magnetic and electric fields promote stability as they block escape for each other. The center of the machine is linear without the curve of a torus. This second part is a suppliment for Vortex members: With Perpetual Motion of the Second Kind any fusion machine producing energy releasing nuclear reactions will create surplus energy. I think the diode array will be more of a general purpose electrical energy and refrigeration source. A modified ME vessel may be usful in industry and space propulsion PS, another topic: The experimental discrete 1N914 diode diode array tested by Tom Schum consisted of 32 modules in series each module containing 32 parallel diodes see http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ Aloha, Charles M. Brown From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 05:36:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UCaHEN008315; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 05:36:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UCaFMf008284; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 05:36:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 05:36:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <460D0FD7.8D13C87@centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:26:34 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328102842.03759900@mindspring.com> <001701c7724e$a79f29b0$6698163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xk" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xk" Resent-Message-ID: <9NkTKD.A.CBC.-QQDGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74117 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Oil Gang -- The Empire continues its assault Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: ``Against this backdrop, Washington is consumed with "ethanol euphoria." President Bush in his State of the Union address set a production goal for 2017 of 35 billion gallons of alternative fuels, including grain-based and cellulosic ethanol, and liquefied coal.'' Kyle wrote: If anyone ever needed damning evidence that Bush is a dumbass, there it is. ... For some reason, Cheney reminds me of the galactic emperor from Return of the Jedi.... Hi All, "By their works you shall know them." Before we dismiss the the Oil Gang as bumbling fools, remember that making ethanol from corn requires a net increase in oil consumption and helps keep the price of oil up in the face of the world oil glut. The other issue, control, is still a challenge to the Oil Gang. They are making progress in Iraq as the oil fields are turned over to American companies -- at the cost of American lives and tax dollars -- but they still are no closer to breaking the Russian grip on Kazakh oil than they were before 911. Jack Smith PS Look for action to take out the Iranian oil fields. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 07:08:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UE8Pvn017431; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:08:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UE8Nr4017413; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:08:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:08:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330100519.03721690@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:08:13 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1236171==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74118 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Lots of press reports about cold fusion Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1236171==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is an article in Norwegian, apparently=20 pro-CF (judging by an automatic transaction): http://www.forskning.no/Artikler/2007/mars/1174909392.3 Google Alerts brought me five stories plus one about Hair Extensions: Symposium=20 to discuss Cold=20 Fusion experiments Resource Investor - Herndon,VA,USA Researchers say they have new evidence supports=20 =E2=80=98low energy nuclear reactions,=E2=80=99 also known as=20 cold fusion. Scientists will discuss evidence of cold fusion, ... 'Cold=20 Fusion'=20 Rebirth? Symposium Explores Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Science Daily (press release) - USA Science Daily =AD In 1989, 'cold fusion' was hailed=20 as a scientific breakthrough with the potential=20 to solve the world's energy problems by providing a ... Scientists=20 shed new light on=20 cold fusion Earthtimes.org - USA CHICAGO, March 29 US scientists say the concept=20 of cold fusion, a controversial concept once=20 hailed as a scientific breakthrough, may be ready for rebirth. ... Fusion=20 Experiments Show Nuclear Power's Softer Side Wired News - USA For a few months in 1989, tabletop cold fusion --=20 even simpler to construct than fusors -- seemed=20 to hold enormous promise, following claims of success from ... Cold=20 fusion=20 is back at the American Chemical Society Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK After an 18-year hiatus, the American Chemical=20 Society (ACS) seems to be warming to cold fusion.=20 Today that society is holding a symposium at their national ... - Jed --=====================_1236171==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is an article in Norwegian, apparently pro-CF (judging by an automatic transaction):

http://www.forskning.no/Artikler/2007/mars/1174909392.3

Google Alerts brought me five stories plus one about Hair Extensions:

Symposium to discuss Cold Fusion experiments
Resource Investor - Herndon,VA,USA
Researchers say they have new evidence supports =E2=80=98low energy nuclear reactions,=E2=80=99 also known as cold fusion= . Scientists will discuss evidence of cold fusion, ...

 'Cold Fusion ' Rebirth? Symposium Explores Low Energy Nuclear Reactions
Science Daily (press release) - USA
Science Daily =AD In 1989, 'cold fusion' was hailed as a scientific breakthrough with the potential to solve the world's energy problems by providing a ...

 Scientists shed new light on cold fusion
Earthtimes.org - USA
CHICAGO, March 29 US scientists say the concept of cold fusion, a controversial concept once hailed as a scientific breakthrough, may be ready for rebirth. ...

 Fusion Experiments Show Nuclear Power's Softer Side
Wired News - USA
For a few months in 1989, tabletop cold fusion -- even simpler to construct than fusors -- seemed to hold enormous promise, following claims of success from ...

 Cold fusion is back at the American Chemical Society
Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK
After an 18-year hiatus, the American Chemical Society (ACS) seems to be warming to cold fusion. Today that society is holding a symposium at their national ...

- Jed
 --=====================_1236171==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 07:28:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UES2nf018117; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:28:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UES0sa018093; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:28:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:28:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <460D1F1C.8050209@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:30:52 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lots of press reports about cold fusion References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330100519.03721690@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330100519.03721690@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <4H8Ea.A.paE.w5RDGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74119 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting that the ACS seems to create more press interest than does the APS where the same papers were given a month earlier. Nevertheless, this exposure is good news and will give other writers the courage to say something positive about CF. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here is an article in Norwegian, apparently pro-CF (judging by an > automatic transaction): > > http://www.forskning.no/Artikler/2007/mars/1174909392.3 > > Google Alerts brought me five stories plus one about Hair Extensions: > > Symposium to discuss > Cold Fusion > experiments > Resource Investor - Herndon,VA,USA > Researchers say they have new evidence supports ‘low energy nuclear > reactions,’ also known as cold fusion. Scientists will discuss > evidence of cold fusion, ... > > ' Cold > Fusion ' Rebirth? Symposium Explores Low Energy Nuclear Reactions > > Science Daily (press release) - USA > Science Daily ­ In 1989, 'cold fusion' was hailed as a scientific > breakthrough with the potential to solve the world's energy problems by > providing a ... > > Scientists shed new light on > cold fusion > Earthtimes.org - USA > CHICAGO, March 29 US scientists say the concept of cold fusion, a > controversial concept once hailed as a scientific breakthrough, may be > ready for rebirth. ... > > Fusion > > Experiments Show Nuclear Power's Softer Side > > Wired News - USA > For a few months in 1989, tabletop cold fusion -- even simpler to > construct than fusors -- seemed to hold enormous promise, following > claims of success from ... > > Cold fusion > is back at the American Chemical Society > > Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK > After an 18-year hiatus, the American Chemical Society (ACS) seems to be > warming to cold fusion. Today that society is holding a symposium at > their national ... > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 07:32:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UEVo8s019697; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:31:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UEVnCv019683; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:31:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:31:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330101451.0376f9f8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:31:45 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lots of press reports about cold fusion In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330100519.03721690@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330100519.03721690@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2643890==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74120 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_2643890==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is some interesting follow up on these stories: They all seem to be positive. I do not recall=20 ever seeing five positive press reports on cold fusion in a single day. >Symposium=20 >to discuss Cold Fusion=20 >experiments >Resource Investor - Herndon,VA,USA >Researchers say they have new evidence supports=20 >=E2=80=98low energy nuclear reactions,=E2=80=99 also known=20 >as cold fusion. Scientists will discuss evidence of cold fusion, ... This one is short, and a CF supporter appended a=20 note alerting people to Mallove's book and MIT's shenanigans. >'Cold=20 >Fusion=20 >'=20 >Rebirth? Symposium Explores Low Energy Nuclear Reactions >Science Daily (press release) - USA >Science Daily =AD In 1989, 'cold fusion' was=20 >hailed as a scientific breakthrough with the=20 >potential to solve the world's energy problems by providing a ... A rewrite of an ACS announcement, which was generally positive. >Scientists=20 >shed new light on=20 >cold fusion >Earthtimes.org - USA >CHICAGO, March 29 US scientists say the concept=20 >of cold fusion, a controversial concept once=20 >hailed as a scientific breakthrough, may be ready for rebirth. ... A short UPI report. I do not recall ever seeing a=20 positive report from a wire service. Perhaps we really have turned the= corner. >Fusion= =20 >Experime= nts=20 >Show Nuclear Power's Softer Side >Wired News - USA >For a few months in 1989, tabletop cold fusion=20 >-- even simpler to construct than fusors --=20 >seemed to hold enormous promise, following claims of success from ... Inane comments by the reporter, with notes=20 appended by various people including me and Bill=20 Beaty. (Thanks Bill!) Here are some of dumb=20 comments made by the reporter to me, which are=20 among the stupidest comments ever, right up there=20 with Time Magazine's Lemonick: "[W]hile cold fusion can be replicated be anyone,=20 what is implied in "the hype ebbed away..." is=20 the fact that Pons and Fleischmann's technique=20 didn't, as hoped for, produce an exploitable=20 'energy profit'. I'm sorry if this was not made clear." Clear as mud! I still wonder what he was=20 thinking. Anyone can replicate cold fusion? This=20 like Lemonick's gem: "So . . . anybody can repeat=20 [the experiment]. that's what you're saying, right?" The reporter later wrote: =93Put simply, there was not enough space to cover=20 cold fusion's promise and details of the=20 aftermath surrounding Pons and Fleischmann's work.=94 My response: "Space is not the issue. Your comment was=20 factually incorrect and misleading. A factually=20 correct statement would not have taken up more=20 space. You wrote 'The hype ebbed away when other=20 researchers were unable to replicate their=20 results.' That should say: 'Within a year, 92=20 groups of researchers reported they were able to replicate the results.'" >Cold=20 >fusion=20 >is=20 >back at the American Chemical Society >Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK >After an 18-year hiatus, the American Chemical=20 >Society (ACS) seems to be warming to cold=20 >fusion. Today that society is holding a symposium at their national ... We have discussed this. This is by Katherine=20 Sanderson, who will probably soon be looking for a new job. - Jed --=====================_2643890==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is some interesting follow up on these stories:

They all seem to be positive. I do not recall ever seeing five positive press reports on cold fusion in a single day.

Symposium to discuss Cold Fusion experiments
Resource Investor - Herndon,VA,USA
Researchers say they have new evidence supports =E2=80=98low energy nuclear reactions,=E2=80=99 also known as cold fusion= . Scientists will discuss evidence of cold fusion, ...

This one is short, and a CF supporter appended a note alerting people to Mallove's book and MIT's shenanigans.


'Cold Fusion ' Rebirth? Symposium Explores Low Energy Nuclear Reactions
Science Daily (press release) - USA
Science Daily =AD In 1989, 'cold fusion' was hailed as a scientific breakthrough with the potential to solve the world's energy problems by providing a ...

A rewrite of an ACS announcement, which was generally positive.


Scientists shed new light on cold fusion
Earthtimes.org - USA
CHICAGO, March 29 US scientists say the concept of cold fusion, a controversial concept once hailed as a scientific breakthrough, may be ready for rebirth. ...

A short UPI report. I do not recall ever seeing a positive report from a wire service. Perhaps we really have turned the corner.


Fusion Experiments Show Nuclear Power's Softer Side
Wired News - USA
For a few months in 1989, tabletop cold fusion -- even simpler to construct than fusors -- seemed to hold enormous promise, following claims of success from ...

Inane comments by the reporter, with notes appended by various people including me and Bill Beaty. (Thanks Bill!) Here are some of dumb comments made by the reporter to me, which are among the stupidest comments ever, right up there with Time Magazine's Lemonick:

"[W]hile cold fusion can be replicated be anyone, what is implied in "the hype ebbed away..." is the fact that Pons and Fleischmann's technique didn't, as hoped for, produce an exploitable 'energy profit'. I'm sorry if this was not made clear."

Clear as mud! I still wonder what he was thinking. Anyone can replicate cold fusion? This like Lemonick's gem: "So . . . anybody can repeat [the experiment]. that's what you're saying, right?"

The reporter later wrote:

=93Put simply, there was not enough space to cover cold fusion's promise and details of the aftermath surrounding Pons and Fleischmann's work.=94

My response:

"Space is not the issue. Your comment was factually incorrect and misleading. A factually correct statement would not have taken up more space. You wrote 'The hype ebbed away when other researchers were unable to replicate their results.' That should say: 'Within a year, 92 groups of researchers reported they were able to replicate the results.'"


Cold fusion is back at the American Chemical Society
Nature.com (subscription) - London,England,UK
After an 18-year hiatus, the American Chemical Society (ACS) seems to be warming to cold fusion. Today that society is holding a symposium at their national ...

We have discussed this. This is by Katherine Sanderson, who will probably soon be looking for a new job.

- Jed
 --=====================_2643890==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 09:22:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UGMdBF012645; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:22:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UGMaej012624; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:22:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:22:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c772e4$f568e230$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330100519.03721690@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070330101451.0376f9f8@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lots of press reports about cold fusion Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:03:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C772BB.0C511640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74121 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C772BB.0C511640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed wrote, They all seem to be positive. I do not recall ever seeing five positive = press reports on cold fusion in a single day. Jed's response, "Space is not the issue. Your comment was factually incorrect and = misleading. A factually correct statement would not have taken up more = space. You wrote 'The hype ebbed away when other researchers were unable = to replicate their results.' That should say: 'Within a year, 92 groups = of researchers reported they were able to replicate the results.'" Howdy Jed, Positive in that 5 reports are now in print, negative in the words = "laced" within the reports. Yes, the message is present but flavored with negatives and attitude of = skepticism, a product of our modern university systems inculcated into = the student of journalism. Gone is the inherent responsibilty of = journalists to inspire to excellence. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C772BB.0C511640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Jed wrote,
 
They all seem to be positive. I do not recall ever seeing five = positive=20 press reports on cold fusion in a single day.

Jed's response,
"Space is not the issue. Your comment was factually incorrect and=20 misleading. A factually correct statement would not have taken up more = space.=20 You wrote 'The hype ebbed away when other researchers were unable to = replicate=20 their results.' That should say: 'Within a year, 92 groups of = researchers=20 reported they were able to replicate the results.'"

Howdy Jed,
Positive in that 5 reports are now in = print,=20 negative in the words "laced" within the reports.
 
Yes, the message is present but = flavored=20 with negatives and  attitude of skepticism, a product of our = modern=20 university systems inculcated into the student of journalism. Gone is = the=20 inherent responsibilty of journalists to inspire to = excellence.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C772BB.0C511640-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 10:02:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UH2Ick015137; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:02:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UH2GCa015123; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:02:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:02:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=hz1698K9UBCc/AT6jlT40p5W96n9YpepcaT0xQN6qGXqrqaFcryZZtR/BlWFmFsyOJk/gX4/lw922Eg+z/TSsAtFXMa3+Ur2CY0mkvYrGmf/oPJiVNEeDg3YgtK/XNe0X+f2IeLqfFWvRJdGaafxaCheQYgDZmefFftUISnDWQk= ; X-YMail-OSG: fE0Vj9YVM1lXs_GDtLw_Qd7Pi_iPCb8ujddurS.sZp.hfHiMeivYLMwefbcsy3bfeppXMNudziBfuj2sTE7aMx5Ncxv1uELdFnW026nZmc9DlMxDBto- Message-ID: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:02:11 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74122 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Status: O X-Status: Recent negative comments on Vortex on this subject are short-sighted and = counter productive, despite the fact that ethanol itself is not a=20 desirable transportation fuel. It is all about infrastructure, 'stepping stones', stop-gap solutions,=20 and the ramping up of domestic farm production with what we have now -=20 in anticipation of what we will have in two to three years time. The Agriculture Department said that US farmers intend to plant 90.5=20 million acres of corn this summer, the highest level since 1944, when=20 the USA was in effect feeding most of the War-ravaged World. =2E.. and up from 78.3 million acres year-ago levels, which was already=20 high historically - an increase of over 15% year to year. Much of this=20 will go into ethanol/butanol. It is not clear what percentage of that=20 will also employ corn cellulose, which can double the yield per acre=20 planted. In reality, the corn to ethanol process is only viable today because of=20 Federal subsidies and tax breaks. These are the result of political=20 support of farm belt congressional representatives and politically=20 powerful farming organizations and major agricultural corporations. Many = observers have noted that when "push comes to shove" in the USA, the=20 farm lobby is more powerful than the oil lobby. In fact a great deal of=20 allow farm land is owned by big-oil. These subsidies are not unlike supports given to oil producers in the=20 past - but still the trend to ethanol would be alarming - except for two = extremely bright spots in alternative energy R&D, closely related to=20 corn-to-ethanol which do make excellent sense: Algoil (biodiesel from=20 algae) and cellulose-to-butanol (and cross-over technologies). We are=20 only one to two years away from a major shift to these lab-proven=20 technologies, however, and no further breakthroughs are required - just=20 implementation of what we have (and sorting out of overlapping patent=20 and IP rights) ... Therefore - the most valuable outcome of our current National=20 fascination with the conversion of corn to ethanol is that it, and the=20 infrastructure which is derived from it, may prove to be the direct=20 stepping-stone along the efficient "real path" leading us to a=20 sustainable carbon-neutral energy future, one that will provide us with=20 increased home-based energy supplies and significantly reduce our input=20 of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere - but *without* ethanol itself, in = the longer time-frame. That 'real path' to self sufficiency is - and remains - under the same=20 name: bio-fuel but it is not ethanol per se: it is cellulose-to-butanol=20 -- or as an even better alternative: algoil. These are being produced=20 now in pilot-plants and can take-over the entire infrastructure from=20 ethanol easily. Here is some information which is more authoritative than DoA: the corn=20 growers association: http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2007/march/031507a.asp Highlights: 1) Three billion gallons of new ethanol production capacity will come=20 online in 2007. This is almost as much as total production in 2004. 2) NCGA President McCauley: =93The industry is a lot closer to=20 manufacturing ethanol from corn cellulose than many people think. Corn=20 cellulose will become as important to the ethanol industry as corn=20 starch already is.=94 3) The switch to Butanol. Butanol is a significantly better fuel than=20 ethanol, and in principle (and in labs now) it can be 100% substituted=20 using special fermentation yeasts... although for political expediency=20 butanol is being plugged as 'complementary, not competitive". BP announced that it will invest $500 million into butanol in a=20 partnership with DuPont and UC Berkeley to develop the new technology=20 for butanol. Other oil companies are on-board because butanol is also=20 being made as we speak from petroleum AND from coal. IOW it is the only=20 transportation fuel which makes great economic sense to both the farmer, = the oil driller, and the coal miner. With those three lobbies, its=20 ultimate success is all but guaranteed. In most ways, butanol is superior to gasoline, as it is cleaner, safer,=20 and less toxic. It is more expensive than gasoline now - but that is=20 partly a function of low demand, which can change overnight - once the=20 switch is mandated - at the pump. Unlike fuel ethanol, or even the 15%=20 blend - with butanol zero changes to an auto engine are required to sue=20 butanol. With more efficient hybrid autos, and with cellulose-to-butanol from the = farm belt and Algoil from lake and offshore aquaculture (and flooded=20 deserts) the USA can become self-sufficient in transportation fuel=20 before the end of the decade. All that is required in political=20 will-power and the active participation of big-oil - instead of active=20 hindrance. We may need to be self-sufficient very soon as a practical matter - if=20 the Hawks in DC and the UK decide to take-out the Iranian oil fields as=20 punishment. That is looking more and more probable as an outcome in that region. If=20 we don't do it, the Brits or the Israelis are fully capable alone. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 10:38:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UHbpSm032045; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:37:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UHbdC4031909; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:37:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:37:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330132639.03773f80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:37:23 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74123 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >It is all about infrastructure, 'stepping stones', stop-gap >solutions, and the ramping up of domestic farm production with what >we have now - in anticipation of what we will have in two to three years time. As Pimentel has pointed out, if we were to convert every scrap of new plant growth in the U.S. into fuel -- every leaf, branch and food crop -- this would supply less than half of our energy needs. Our entire food crop would not supply 20% of the automobile fuel we need. Plantlife grown in natural conditions in North America does not capture enough energy, period. All the technology in the world will not change this fact. Growing algae in tanks is another matter. A 25-gallon tank of fuel has as much energy as one adult consumes in a year. In a world in which thousands of children die every week from starvation, for the U.S. to convert food into automobile fuel is unspeakable. It is inhuman. It is like gathering up the corpses of those dead children and burning them for fuel. Of course we did not kill them directly, but our irresponsible decisions and our lunatic disregard for basic economics and physics contributed to their deaths. As for developing improved ethanol, if we were to redirect the money we spend doing that to improved automobile efficiency and plug-in hybrids, we could easily cut our consumption to 20% to 50%, saving far more than ethanol can every supply. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 11:02:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UI25Uw011873; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:02:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UI24uc011861; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:02:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:02:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330134317.0377a730@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:01:58 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lots of press reports about cold fusion In-Reply-To: <001301c772e4$f568e230$c905a8c0@xptower> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330100519.03721690@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070330101451.0376f9f8@mindspring.com> <001301c772e4$f568e230$c905a8c0@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0qaUnD.A.M5C.bCVDGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74124 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: >Howdy Jed, >Positive in that 5 reports are now in print, negative in the words >"laced" within the reports. Yup. But please note that 4 out of 5 says something good about CF, in addition to the usual negative garbage. Google Alerts brings me dozens of articles about cold fusion every year. There are few positive ones from places like ZPEnergy, but as I recall, for the past several years every single one of the mainstream articles was completely negative. The ones in Time magazine and the Washington Post the I featured in the LENR-CANR News section are typical. See: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm These 5 articles are way ahead of the Post. At least they do not accuse us of fraud! The Wired article is whacky, but at least it includes the photo from BARC. >Yes, the message is present but flavored with negatives >and attitude of skepticism, a product of our modern university systems . . . I do not think this is a modern attitude. You will find similar attitudes in the newspapers and journals discussing Pasteur's germ theory in the 1860s, or the Wright brothers in 1906. See also: "[A] most futile attempt and totally impossible to be carried out." - Benjamin Disraeli describes the proposed Suez Canal in 1858 "The Panama Canal is actually a thing of the past, and Nature in her works will soon obliterate all traces of French energy and money expended on the Isthmus." - Scientific American, 1891 "I will ignore all ideas and new works and engines of war, the invention of which has reached its limits and for whose improvement I see no further hope." - Julius Frontinius, chief military engineer to the Roman Emperor Vespasian, 1st century A.D. I think this is human nature. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 11:27:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UIR7xK026098; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:27:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UIR5dd026077; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:27:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:27:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:25:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions In-reply-to: <5.2.0.9.2.20070329204410.04cb10f8@mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74125 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please excuse the multiple postings. I forgot to delete vortex-l from the 'To' address box. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 11:29:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UISsC5023769; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:28:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UISptm023744; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:28:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:28:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330140701.03773118@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:28:05 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lots of press reports about cold fusion In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330134317.0377a730@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330100519.03721690@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070330101451.0376f9f8@mindspring.com> <001301c772e4$f568e230$c905a8c0@xptower> <7.0.1.0.2.20070330134317.0377a730@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9mMtjB.A.8yF.jbVDGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74126 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >"I will ignore all ideas and new works and engines of war, the >invention of which has reached its limits and for whose improvement >I see no further hope." - Julius Frontinius, chief military engineer >to the Roman Emperor Vespasian, 1st century A.D. That's supposed to be "I will ignore all ideas for new works . . ." To take a similar example from last week's news, NASA just closed down their $4 million per year Institute for Advanced Concepts office in Atlanta. As far as I know, this was their only venue for researching "space elevators . . . exotic propulsion systems and miniature robots for exploring Mars." In other words, from now on they only plan to use German rocket technology invented in the early 1940s. This is called slamming the door on the future. See: http://www.ajc.com/search/content/news/stories/2007/03/24/meshnasa0324a.html The quotes from Frontinius and the others come from the book Cerf, C., "The Experts Speak." Here is another gem: "Most improbable and more like one of joules Verne's stories." - British Adm. Sir Compton Dombile reacting to the story "Danger!" By Sir Arthur Colin Doyle , in which Doyle warned that England was susceptible to a submarine blockade by a hostile nation, 1914. Note that England nearly lost WWI because of the German submarine blockade, mainly because of bungling and ineptitude, such as delaying the use of convoys. Twenty years later during WWII, the British military officers repeated nearly every mistake they had in WWI. See: Gray, E. A., "THe U-Boat War 1914-1918," 1994:Leo Cooper Note also that during 1942, the U.S. officers and civilian leadership repeated most of the mistakes made by the British in anti-submarine war, plus they added several new mistakes that only Americans would make, such as leaving the lights on along the East Coast, especially in Florida. This back-lighting extended a few hundred kilometers out to sea, covering most of the active shipping lanes, making it dead simple for the German U-boat captains to find and target U.S. ships. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. The Germans later called it "the Happy Time." In 8 months they sank 609 ships, losing only 22 U-boats. At that rate, they would have won the war in a walk. History teaches us that stupidity has always been common. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 11:52:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UIqRZQ007034; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:52:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UIqPo8007004; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:52:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:52:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:50:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74127 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Status: RO X-Status: The effects are real, a nuclear reaction is involved but may be the nuclear reaction is not of the fusion kind after all. 2 out of 3 ain't bad! ;-) Harry Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:37:58 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> In your opinion, is the theory of Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed >> nuclear reactions >> the best theory to date? > [snip] > I think that if you read Ed Storms new book, you will have a good idea of what > is a better theory. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, > Cooperation (communism) provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 12:21:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UJLhxn013350; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:21:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UJLfxN013330; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:21:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:21:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=A6V/matQLYAnPlWJX/kIzSUCe3m7gQEXRtF1au+n/FDsc8OqkGK6gizfKW1ccp+pzdpekGvEcUJAtNLMLXIqA4W8uwXP4qGvJLdKwFujeje5C3HzeNgtXmD/BUwbNI8FjHd+1D1uGKtpqBkCjv4a1YosyBaEfdpWq4BIhuLTIKk= ; X-YMail-OSG: WCvyqCoVM1lYXSpmD18QVcjdgkJKafb4P_Yp27Z.16_BM78YOXswr68WBjFdG0Pmq9ElJJ9yHw-- Message-ID: <460D633E.4020308@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:21:34 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070330132639.03773f80@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330132639.03773f80@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74128 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > As Pimentel has pointed out ... Utterly meaningless. The guy is an antiquated and misguided zealot with zero credibility among the decision makers on either side of the aisle- as witnessed by the massive changes already underway. > As for developing improved ethanol, if we were to redirect the money we > spend doing that to improved automobile efficiency and plug-in hybrids, > we could easily cut our consumption to 20% to 50%, saving far more than > ethanol can every supply. Of course hybrids are a big part of the solution. It is not "either/or", and it is definitely NOT about "improving ethanol". We should be focused precisely on the twin goals of fueling advanced hybrids with butanol, biodiesel, or algoil -- ...which fuels are more like 'anti-ethanol' than 'improved ethanol' -- and we should be heavily taxing Arab oil, at the point of entry, and oil company profits via the elimination of all allowances and incentives, in order to accomplish these twin goals. Ethanol will gradually fade from view and go out of use, in the next 5-7 years, under the weight of its own inefficiency, and with no need for sham arguments. Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 12:26:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UJQisN025990; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:26:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UJQhqg025975; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:26:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:26:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:26:41 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_92f15240c9e779d285c988e470b444cb" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070330192858.898BF3FA1E5@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74129 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The new watt-coms, a new era is approaching Status: O X-Status: --=_92f15240c9e779d285c988e470b444cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: The new watt-coms, a new era is approaching Good news in AE R&D arena: See: http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/trilliondollar-prize-turns-dotcom-into-wattcom/2007/03/30/1174761748983.html http://tinyurl.com/2fvtj4 Excerpts: > SILICON Valley's dotcom era might be giving way to > the watt-com era. > > Out of the ashes of the internet bust, many technology > veterans have regrouped and found a new mission in > alternative energy: developing wind power, solar panels, > ethanol plants and hydrogen-powered cars. > > It is no secret that venture capitalists have begun > pouring billions into energy-related start-ups with > names such as SunPower, Nanosolar and Lilliputian > Systems. ... > This time around, entrepreneurs say they are not > expecting such quick returns. In the internet boom, > the mantra was to change the world and get rich > quick. This time, given the size and scope of the > energy market, the idea is to change the world and > get even richer - but somewhat more slowly. > > Those drawn to the alternative-energy industry say > they need time to understand the energy technology, > and to turn ideas into solid companies. After all, > in contrast to the internet boom, this time the > companies will need actual manufactured products > and customers. > > "There are real business models and real products to > be sold in established markets and growing economics," > says George Basile, who has a doctorate in biophysics > from the University of California, Berkeley, and > specializes in energy issues. ... > They are all, plainly, following the money. In the > first three quarters of 2006, venture capital firms > put $US474 million into a broad range of valley > start-ups in energy storage, generation and > efficiency, according to Cleantech Venture Network, > an industry trade group. Energy was by far the > fastest-growing area, and the amount was on par with > what was put into telecommunications and biotechnology. ... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_92f15240c9e779d285c988e470b444cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: The new watt-coms, a new era is approaching

Good news in AE R&D arena:

See:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/trilliondollar-prize-turns-dotcom-into-= wattcom/2007/03/30/1174761748983.html

http://tinyurl.com/2fvtj4

Excerpts:

> SILICON Valley's dotcom era might be giving way to
> the watt-com era.
>
> Out of the ashes of the internet bust, many technology
> veterans have regrouped and found a new mission in
> alternative energy: developing wind power, solar panels,
> ethanol plants and hydrogen-powered cars.
>
> It is no secret that venture capitalists have begun
> pouring billions into energy-related start-ups with
> names such as SunPower, Nanosolar and Lilliputian
> Systems.

...

> This time around, entrepreneurs say they are not
> expecting such quick returns. In the internet boom,
> the mantra was to change the world and get rich
> quick. This time, given the size and scope of the
> energy market, the idea is to change the world and
> get even richer - but somewhat more slowly.
>
> Those drawn to the alternative-energy industry say
> they need time to understand the energy technology,
> and to turn ideas into solid companies. After all,
> in contrast to the internet boom, this time the
> companies will need actual manufactured products
> and customers.
>
> "There are real business models and real products to
> be sold in established markets and growing economics,"
> says George Basile, who has a doctorate in biophysics
> from the University of California, Berkeley, and
> specializes in energy issues.

...

> They are all, plainly, following the money. In the
> first three quarters of 2006, venture capital firms
> put $US474 million into a broad range of valley
> start-ups in energy storage, generation and
> efficiency, according to Cleantech Venture Network,
> an industry trade group. Energy was by far the
> fastest-growing area, and the amount was on par with
> what was put into telecommunications and biotechnology.

...

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_92f15240c9e779d285c988e470b444cb-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 12:31:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UJV2Rs023627; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:31:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UJV1NL023607; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:31:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:31:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JDC/jJDjikC4RKEeTs5ixZ8g+aw7H9lYc9QTO1JbcFGz3htMWGeAQNdtsIP7WWrVBKeBa//JWf2ZqXQD8ArjKe/CevHuwEc29Mxr65X2OP/moxErUcbJNyB73pGVvk5NHFrr1RVlhJnezpOlrdg0+5SVCJjgHenrUs746jMlMdE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mNLc6QqZEpPeXwGoXBmTd+NAWYyeH1EWoZJ1i/vD+5Ql06nVWPuSDNe7Qv7ZKEiaa1ZdAH3bs8UUMySfBSn5r0SiZQV/Z0C1PZMy7YxQylRtbG8Mvu2xgZnZXt1f9cqLL2wSD45fnoN12jSl0ef7pmxE8q7EM0apNIq47YIdLVA= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:31:00 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74130 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I for one never understood CORN being used. grow something with a higher fruit yeild per acre, and sugar yeild per pound. On 3/30/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Recent negative comments on Vortex on this subject are short-sighted and > counter productive, despite the fact that ethanol itself is not a > desirable transportation fuel. > > It is all about infrastructure, 'stepping stones', stop-gap solutions, > and the ramping up of domestic farm production with what we have now - > in anticipation of what we will have in two to three years time. > > The Agriculture Department said that US farmers intend to plant 90.5 > million acres of corn this summer, the highest level since 1944, when > the USA was in effect feeding most of the War-ravaged World. > > ... and up from 78.3 million acres year-ago levels, which was already > high historically - an increase of over 15% year to year. Much of this > will go into ethanol/butanol. It is not clear what percentage of that > will also employ corn cellulose, which can double the yield per acre > planted. > > In reality, the corn to ethanol process is only viable today because of > Federal subsidies and tax breaks. These are the result of political > support of farm belt congressional representatives and politically > powerful farming organizations and major agricultural corporations. Many > observers have noted that when "push comes to shove" in the USA, the > farm lobby is more powerful than the oil lobby. In fact a great deal of > allow farm land is owned by big-oil. > > These subsidies are not unlike supports given to oil producers in the > past - but still the trend to ethanol would be alarming - except for two > extremely bright spots in alternative energy R&D, closely related to > corn-to-ethanol which do make excellent sense: Algoil (biodiesel from > algae) and cellulose-to-butanol (and cross-over technologies). We are > only one to two years away from a major shift to these lab-proven > technologies, however, and no further breakthroughs are required - just > implementation of what we have (and sorting out of overlapping patent > and IP rights) ... > > Therefore - the most valuable outcome of our current National > fascination with the conversion of corn to ethanol is that it, and the > infrastructure which is derived from it, may prove to be the direct > stepping-stone along the efficient "real path" leading us to a > sustainable carbon-neutral energy future, one that will provide us with > increased home-based energy supplies and significantly reduce our input > of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere - but *without* ethanol itself, in > the longer time-frame. > > That 'real path' to self sufficiency is - and remains - under the same > name: bio-fuel but it is not ethanol per se: it is cellulose-to-butanol > -- or as an even better alternative: algoil. These are being produced > now in pilot-plants and can take-over the entire infrastructure from > ethanol easily. > > Here is some information which is more authoritative than DoA: the corn > growers association: > > http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2007/march/031507a.asp > > Highlights: > > 1) Three billion gallons of new ethanol production capacity will come > online in 2007. This is almost as much as total production in 2004. > > 2) NCGA President McCauley: "The industry is a lot closer to > manufacturing ethanol from corn cellulose than many people think. Corn > cellulose will become as important to the ethanol industry as corn > starch already is." > > 3) The switch to Butanol. Butanol is a significantly better fuel than > ethanol, and in principle (and in labs now) it can be 100% substituted > using special fermentation yeasts... although for political expediency > butanol is being plugged as 'complementary, not competitive". > > BP announced that it will invest $500 million into butanol in a > partnership with DuPont and UC Berkeley to develop the new technology > for butanol. Other oil companies are on-board because butanol is also > being made as we speak from petroleum AND from coal. IOW it is the only > transportation fuel which makes great economic sense to both the farmer, > the oil driller, and the coal miner. With those three lobbies, its > ultimate success is all but guaranteed. > > In most ways, butanol is superior to gasoline, as it is cleaner, safer, > and less toxic. It is more expensive than gasoline now - but that is > partly a function of low demand, which can change overnight - once the > switch is mandated - at the pump. Unlike fuel ethanol, or even the 15% > blend - with butanol zero changes to an auto engine are required to sue > butanol. > > With more efficient hybrid autos, and with cellulose-to-butanol from the > farm belt and Algoil from lake and offshore aquaculture (and flooded > deserts) the USA can become self-sufficient in transportation fuel > before the end of the decade. All that is required in political > will-power and the active participation of big-oil - instead of active > hindrance. > > We may need to be self-sufficient very soon as a practical matter - if > the Hawks in DC and the UK decide to take-out the Iranian oil fields as > punishment. > > That is looking more and more probable as an outcome in that region. If > we don't do it, the Brits or the Israelis are fully capable alone. > > Jones > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 12:48:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UJlvvs003741; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:47:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UJlu5D003716; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:47:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:47:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3nY7keY92M9dbAh1rk47ksU5j9qDY9UqTyOSQ7tB2YT9bNmAHX4Dywue6kUuhHBIYkb0rHNHImRAPiSj8TCH1JXzo3UoyZSh+I9n4Yc6m9na65RAU4bqi5LeRPUzM5799viJxcsNOFLz4/lvhqI8kd7mv41bshdSJFjNyhPGlRo= ; X-YMail-OSG: 9QM.yoQVM1llyy25FKzIWMIIUv9u.pCNC8gJNriZWGMjMb_57EQU14K9.rMi7690rCrBHTHpkA-- Message-ID: <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:47:50 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74131 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: > I for one never understood CORN being used. grow something with a > higher fruit yeild per acre, and sugar yeild per pound. The decision for growing corn is not 'ordered' at even a regional level but is made at a much lower level - the individual farmer. From the perspective of the farmer - all the variables for corn are known through years of experience - and if the price is right, he will grow it. Much higher yields for cellulose are available with other crops, but from the farmer's perspective, it is too risky to grow these, as the variables are not well-known - and the price he can secure is not firm. Things change however - in a farmer's-cooperative-association - where the decision is based on how much total fuel they can sell from the available crops - and the risk/reward is shared. That systemic change is expected to happen soon with state encouragement in selected areas, and it is unlikely that corn will be the choice. As for sugar - that product may be irrelevant now that cellulose can be converted, and the net yield of sugar (beets are used in Europe) is always going to be 50-75% less per acre than raw cellulose. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 12:50:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UJobR4029357; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:50:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UJoZRj029341; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:50:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:50:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330153419.03773f80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:50:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <460D633E.4020308@pacbell.net> References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070330132639.03773f80@mindspring.com> <460D633E.4020308@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_21769234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74132 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_21769234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >>As Pimentel has pointed out ... > >Utterly meaningless. The guy is an antiquated and misguided zealot . . . Because he does biology, and presents quantitative, reality-based arguments, I suppose. I agree that in the new era of fact-free touchy-feeling "truthiness" this kind of thing is unacceptable. Policy can be as crazy as you like as long as it feels good, and looks good in TV advertisements featuring yeoman farmers standing proudly in the sunset. >with zero credibility among the decision makers on either side of >the aisle- as witnessed by the massive changes already underway. You mean the massive mistakes now underway. Billions of dollars being thrown away on a technology that cannot work even in principle, and that will certainly result in the deaths of millions of innocent people by starvation, and the destabilization of Mexico, China and many of other countries, not to mention a drastic increase in food prices here in the U.S. Yet another Bush administration triumph, along with Afghanistan, Iraq and hurricane Katrina. The "decision makers" also pay attention to food producers and consumers. These people also have political power. The Coca-Cola Company, for example, does not appreciate it when the government pays other people a huge subsidy to waste Coca-Cola's raw materials. People have come to realize that a huge giveaway program to the oil industry -- massive, subsidized waste and grotesque inefficiency -- is not in their interest. They have been complaining in recent months. I predict they will put a stop to this madness before half the U.S. food crop is burned up every year as a gift to OPEC. >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are >here to stay. Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. - Jed --=====================_21769234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

As Pimentel has pointed out ... 

Utterly meaningless. The guy is an antiquated and misguided zealot . . .

Because he does biology, and presents quantitative, reality-based arguments, I suppose. I agree that in the new era of fact-free touchy-feeling "truthiness" this kind of thing is unacceptable. Policy can be as crazy as you like as long as it feels good, and looks good in TV advertisements featuring yeoman farmers standing proudly in the sunset.


with zero credibility among the decision makers on either side of the aisle- as witnessed by the massive changes already underway.

You mean the massive mistakes now underway. Billions of dollars being thrown away on a technology that cannot work even in principle, and that will certainly result in the deaths of millions of innocent people by starvation, and the destabilization of Mexico, China and many of other countries, not to mention a drastic increase in food prices here in the U.S. Yet another Bush administration triumph, along with  Afghanistan, Iraq and hurricane Katrina.

The "decision makers" also pay attention to food producers and consumers. These people also have political power. The Coca-Cola Company, for example, does not appreciate it when the government pays other people a huge subsidy to waste Coca-Cola's raw materials. People have come to realize that a huge giveaway program to the oil industry -- massive, subsidized waste and grotesque inefficiency -- is not in their interest. They have been complaining in recent months. I predict they will put a stop to this madness before half the U.S. food crop is burned up every year as a gift to OPEC.


Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay.

Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.

- Jed
--=====================_21769234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 13:08:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UK8DDR005641; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:08:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UK8CWa005613; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:08:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:08:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NSWtECTpT/lQYBsCN+qXjbCDmeZWVvWy1HqltyW6O6faL2LVNFF0XaQIfTads6wgFLU8/LKwnxt50XGSbZkg2BXXob5w/z8C8Zq6wxtF1hMdSwBHs9mQrYM45sUs9YMI3F/b0c23gTMo+0BQZdKtFFRqOQr2NmwzJpHbb3OqkCY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qWo7MUlKDsSrbaBMgZioLhTLLadk4y87BMzIDTBhx9LCQfgFCKNKSagFNkuEeAj1kFVplNWxyhGTJxormPzqvt5yZE3fw8xpM+dR73bmQDy/fZ6f5/klAFgWeWda8VWXH5godaKm0hqC4pkT3ktcA7zNADKupKQPATwJg+XY5BQ= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:08:10 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74133 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Theres direct cellulose conversion now? I'm behind on the technology, obviously. On 3/30/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > leaking pen wrote: > > I for one never understood CORN being used. grow something with a > > higher fruit yeild per acre, and sugar yeild per pound. > > The decision for growing corn is not 'ordered' at even a regional level > but is made at a much lower level - the individual farmer. > > From the perspective of the farmer - all the variables for corn are > known through years of experience - and if the price is right, he will > grow it. > > Much higher yields for cellulose are available with other crops, but > from the farmer's perspective, it is too risky to grow these, as the > variables are not well-known - and the price he can secure is not firm. > > Things change however - in a farmer's-cooperative-association - where > the decision is based on how much total fuel they can sell from the > available crops - and the risk/reward is shared. That systemic change is > expected to happen soon with state encouragement in selected areas, and > it is unlikely that corn will be the choice. > > As for sugar - that product may be irrelevant now that cellulose can be > converted, and the net yield of sugar (beets are used in Europe) is > always going to be 50-75% less per acre than raw cellulose. > > Jones > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 14:34:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ULYHMd031545; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:34:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ULYEIe031518; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:34:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:34:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002701c77313$2a5f25c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 22:34:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74134 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Biofuel Bonanza Jones Beene wrote:- <> Hey, us Brits COULD do it, but it is unthinkable that we would - we're not mad and our Government has recovered from their search for WMD madness - shame that another Gubmint hasn't... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 14:38:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ULcF5k011821; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:38:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ULcD8P011780; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:38:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:38:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DwXfVOe0yEim828HIJGMMgNYZb11WW7cZTMPpjneq1NpJTLb2/SFifyFdYaLvqTL+CxFhvwh7d4Wq9Y+tE5KyIWbjhumXb5uG1QlMPC5nGEBTStpKyi1g4dzzVfLUgAJGGfcvy2Ia141/M5r6SMcb0d03OzNYs3vkdH+PVA+Iec= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mpQoq3BAdZuR7zVQqTBMCniQmGYxNnVmbUSeqYtxB1pBWx5IoR/xVwD2Xvi22d9V0B56F5Y4sqbcKaUtdKO5ra3OSIoDyAe1XRHOK7tF2SllVmojYD/8UMGzZIIIuwiV2CjN7J8nuBKJ346q3hWTFls1NrCzUXHrJHLi5UjMWhc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:38:10 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <002701c77313$2a5f25c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <002701c77313$2a5f25c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: <7lCAZD.A.-3C.FNYDGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74135 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Oh? Have you had the pleasure of watching "V, the Vendetta"? T On 3/30/07, Nick Palmer wrote: > Jones Beene wrote:- > > < punishment. > That is looking more and more probable as an outcome in that region. If > we don't do it, the Brits or the Israelis are fully capable alone>> > > Hey, us Brits COULD do it, but it is unthinkable that we would - we're not > mad and our Government has recovered from their search for WMD madness - > shame that another Gubmint hasn't... > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 14:38:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ULcVEH001870; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:38:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ULcUED001852; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:38:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:38:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=abdCfRNNJwjNnadaIIvcHBM8rplvuGeNZVUozH0C0Av9QAMW8KU7AZS4MncBZ93DuVojvWlLkKcBlqHglct670tR7/9coGFm+9ylsDflEtAu39sbUf7dyzSlcQsdJa0eM8bGrkofOCEjkzg8IdwX1mhqdJ4Og5ak60anScGP6to= ; X-YMail-OSG: A5Mjvn0VM1mg.SQVgSVhfhXCj.F0Xe.3lFdylyjcjGJ3rrJibBduCSqiOCeEge3f5byCibQj2Bj6fG6jiyJAYRbDzXiLbJ2Kxt3TI90nsD90ps7GWe4- Message-ID: <460D8351.5070905@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:38:25 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74136 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com leaking pen wrote: > Theres direct cellulose conversion now? Yup. Only this year has the Rumpelstiltskin effect come into fruition - with at least three companies moving from pilot plants to full production. One leading contender is called Dyadic. They are a bit tight-lipped, but the plant pictured here has been in operation for several months now : http://www.dyadic-group.com/pdf/DyadicAd.pdf Here is an story on them last year from Business Week: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_51/b4014081.htm BTW in Grimm's fairy tale, Rumpelstiltskin spins straw into gold. There are various ways to do this with biomass. Cellulose ethanol generally exhibits a net energy content three times higher than corn derived ethanol based on the weight of input raw material. The economics of this are staggering. Dyadic, started doing this commercially a few months ago by converting Distiller's Grain - since it is in effect "free" as a low value co-product of corn fermentation. Their enzyme process and those of other competitors will work on many kinds of biomass, but the enzymes need to be tailored to specific raw materials, like corn stalks or saw grass. There are literally millions of acres in the mid-west where wheat straw is left standing in the field, after harvest benefiting no one. The US Department of Agriculture says that wheat straw hemicellulose can be easily hydrolyzed enzymatically by using 'Viscostar' from Dyadic, and that alone could provide several billion gallons of new cellulose ethanol with zero effect on food - since it is now unused straw from growing wheat. Same with rice straw and cotton stems and other waste crops. Of course there is massive biofuel potential in forests, especially in Canada. None of this has any effect on food cost - as does corn. But hey, you have to learn to crawl before you can run, and that is where we are now in the process of dumping Arab oil in favor of energy self-sufficiency. Thank heavens these far-sighted (and lucky) scientists and inventors neglected to read what's-his-name... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 14:48:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2ULlxSa017735; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:47:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2ULlvYD017718; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:47:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:47:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070330163933.037a0848@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:47:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <460D0FD7.8D13C87@centurytel.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328102842.03759900@mindspring.com> <001701c7724e$a79f29b0$6698163f@DFBGQZ91> <460D0FD7.8D13C87@centurytel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_28810656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <_xSq-.A.uUE.NWYDGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74137 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: --=====================_28810656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Taylor J. Smith wrote: >"By their works you shall know them." Before we dismiss the the Oil >Gang as bumbling fools . . . Nobody dismisses them! >. . . remember that making ethanol from corn requires a net increase in oil >consumption and helps keep the price of oil up in the face of the >world oil glut. Exactly. It is a gift to OPEC, as I said. >The other issue, control, is still a challenge to the Oil >Gang. They are making progress in Iraq as the oil fields are turned >over to American companies -- at the >cost of American lives and tax dollars -- but they still are no >closer to breaking the Russian grip on Kazakh oil than they were >before 911. . . . > >PS Look for action to take out the Iranian oil fields. I doubt they would go that far. I am no friend of oil companies. I agree they are ruthless. Books such as Yurgen's "The Prize" described the immense power they now wield. But we should remember something: In the late 19th century, the US was dominated by trusts and railroad companies to a greater extent than we are now dominated by big oil or hospitals and insurance companies. The biggest, most ruthless corporation back in 1890 was the Pennsylvania Railroad. Go back and read history books, newspapers and magazines from that era, and you will find that people were terrified of the power of large corporations. Many people feared they would destroy capitalism, uproot democracy, and enslave the nation. The large corporations had senators and congressmen in their pockets. The robber barons were beyond the law. Their income was a greater multitude of the average worker salary than the worst of today's corporate CEOs. Yet by 1932, the railroads' power was broken, and by the mid-1960s the Pennsylvania Railroad vanished. Perhaps these trusts and railroads might have destroyed capitalism and democracy, but the nation took action to prevent this, and then the laws of economics began to operate normally, and the problem was ameliorated. Not fixed -- big corporations still do cause mischief. Looking at the railroads in particular, I think the following series of events brought them down: 1. At the turn of the 20th century antitrust laws were passed and then vigorously enforced Roosevelt and Taft. (Taft did not get the credit he was due for this.) The same kind of intervention will inevitably occur in our dysfunctional healthcare system. Sooner or later, the Congress will step in and keep the insurance companies from bankrupting GM and GE. Our political system will not stand by indefinitely watching one industry sector run roughshod over others, while it robs millions of voters. Powerful corporations always overreach in the end. 2. Henry Ford began making cheap, mass-produced automobiles in 1908. A small, unnoticed, incremental technological improvement came out of nowhere and threatened the railroads most profitable business. We all know the same thing could happen to the oil companies with cold fusion, and I think they are so slow moving and filled with hubris, I doubt they would try to prevent it in time. 3. By the 1920s, the politicians took note of automobiles and began spending huge amounts of tax money on highways and road improvements -- which is, we should admit -- grossly unfair competition to the railroads. Unfair or not, by the 1920s railroads began to lose business, and political power. 4. Railroads began to lay off workers as their business declined and the technology became less labor-intensive. Then when the depression struck they fired huge numbers. Then they were hit by the same problem General Motors suffers from today: large numbers of pensioners. Fortunately for the railroads, one of FDR's first acts as president was to rescue them by reforming their pension system. It says a lot that by the 1930s railroads and fallen so far that instead of running the government, they needed the government to rescue them. 5. In the postwar era, massive highway building and the rise of airlines took away the last vestiges of excess political power that the railroads once had. Of course railroads are still powerful and they still command a lot of attention from Congress but no more than any other multi-billion-dollar industry, such as semiconductors. In a capitalist society with a strong, active central government, no corporation or industry can maintain undue power over the rest of society for long. They are too tempting a target for the competition. The government will bash them, or the competition will. WallMart's success gives rise to Target. Dell will not dominate for long before HP or some other computer company comes along. Sooner or later, Google or some other corporation -- a or combination of corporations, customers and government regulators -- will teach Microsoft a lesson. To take one more example, from the 1960s through 1985 IBM held a tremendous share of the computer business. This was partly because IBM was very well run and their products were reliable, and it was partly a coincidence. Because of the way the company IBM evolved, its managers and design engineers had acquired superb skills in two critical areas: 1. Electromechanical devices such as printers, card readers, tape drives, and hard disks. In the early days, these things were more critical, more difficult to manufacture correctly, and more profitable than the mainframe computer hardware. 2. Detailed knowledge of industry-specific data processing techniques. These techniques are the basis of computer programming, especially in business applications. Things like "registers" and "stacks" used to be physical objects. The indexing and data recall techniques developed by the giant 19th century insurance and railroad corporations were later modeled by computer programmers. In 1970, IBM knew how to do that better than anyone else. IBM's hegemony could not last, and it did not. By the same token, the oil companies gargantuan profits are too tempting a target for other industries. Sooner or later, the managers at GE, GM, Toyota or some other industrial company will ask themselves: "Why are we letting Exxon-Mobil walk away with billions of dollars? That's our money. We could be making wind turbines / plug-in hybrids / cold fusion, and bring that gravy to our plates where it belongs." GM will not stand by indefinitely watching Exxon make more profit per car (over the life of the vehicle) than GM itself does! - Jed --=====================_28810656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Taylor J. Smith wrote:

"By their works you shall know them."  Before we dismiss the the Oil Gang as bumbling fools . . .

Nobody dismisses them!


. . . remember that making ethanol from corn requires a net increase in oil
consumption and helps keep the price of oil up in the face of the world oil glut.

Exactly. It is a gift to OPEC, as I said.


The other issue, control, is still a challenge to the Oil Gang.  They are making progress in Iraq as the oil fields are turned over to American companies -- at the
cost of American lives and tax dollars -- but they still are no closer to breaking the Russian grip on Kazakh oil than they were before 911. . . .

PS  Look for action to take out the Iranian oil fields.

I doubt they would go that far.

I am no friend of oil companies. I agree they are ruthless. Books such as Yurgen's "The Prize" described the immense power they now wield. But we should remember something: In the late 19th century, the US was dominated by trusts and railroad companies to a greater extent than we are now dominated by big oil or hospitals and insurance companies. The biggest, most ruthless corporation back in 1890 was the Pennsylvania Railroad. Go back and read history books, newspapers and magazines from that era, and you will find that people were terrified of the power of large corporations. Many people feared they would destroy capitalism, uproot democracy, and enslave the nation. The large corporations had senators and congressmen in their pockets. The robber barons were beyond the law. Their income was a greater multitude of the average worker salary than the worst of today's corporate CEOs.

Yet by 1932, the railroads' power was broken, and by the mid-1960s the Pennsylvania Railroad vanished. Perhaps these trusts and railroads might have destroyed capitalism and democracy, but the nation took action to prevent this, and then the laws of economics began to operate normally, and the problem was ameliorated. Not fixed -- big corporations still do cause mischief. Looking at the railroads in particular, I think the following series of events brought them down:

1. At the turn of the 20th century antitrust laws were passed and then vigorously enforced Roosevelt and Taft. (Taft did not get the credit he was due for this.) The same kind of intervention will inevitably occur in our dysfunctional healthcare system. Sooner or later, the Congress will step in and keep the insurance companies from bankrupting GM and GE. Our political system will not stand by indefinitely watching one industry sector run roughshod over others, while it robs millions of voters. Powerful corporations always overreach in the end.

2. Henry Ford began making cheap, mass-produced automobiles in 1908. A small, unnoticed,  incremental technological improvement came out of nowhere and threatened the railroads most profitable business. We all know the same thing could happen to the oil companies with cold fusion, and I think they are so slow moving and filled with hubris, I doubt they would try to prevent it in time.

3. By the 1920s, the politicians took note of automobiles and began spending huge amounts of tax money on highways and road improvements -- which is, we should admit -- grossly unfair competition to the railroads. Unfair or not, by the 1920s railroads began to lose business, and political power.

4. Railroads began to lay off workers as their business declined and the technology became less labor-intensive. Then when the depression struck they fired huge numbers. Then they were hit by the same problem General Motors suffers from today: large numbers of pensioners. Fortunately for the railroads, one of FDR's first acts as president was to rescue them by reforming their pension system. It says a lot that by the 1930s railroads and fallen so far that instead of running the government, they needed the government to rescue them.

5. In the postwar era, massive highway building and the rise of airlines took away the last vestiges of excess political power that the railroads once had. Of course railroads are still powerful and they still command a lot of attention from Congress but no more than any other multi-billion-dollar industry, such as semiconductors.

In a capitalist society with a strong, active central government, no corporation or industry can maintain undue power over the rest of society for long. They are too tempting a target for the competition. The government will bash them, or the competition will. WallMart's success gives rise to Target. Dell will not dominate for long before HP or some other computer company comes along. Sooner or later, Google or some other corporation -- a or combination of corporations, customers and government regulators -- will teach Microsoft a lesson.

To take one more example, from the 1960s through 1985 IBM held a tremendous share of the computer business. This was partly because IBM was very well run and their products were reliable, and it was partly a coincidence. Because of the way the company IBM evolved, its managers and design engineers had acquired superb skills in two critical areas:

1. Electromechanical devices such as printers, card readers, tape drives, and hard disks. In the early days, these things were more critical, more difficult to manufacture correctly, and more profitable than the mainframe computer hardware.

2. Detailed knowledge of industry-specific data processing techniques. These techniques are the basis of computer programming, especially in business applications. Things like "registers" and "stacks" used to be physical objects. The indexing and data recall techniques developed by the giant 19th century insurance and railroad corporations were later modeled by computer programmers. In 1970, IBM knew how to do that better than anyone else.

IBM's hegemony could not last, and it did not.

By the same token, the oil companies gargantuan profits are too tempting a target for other industries. Sooner or later, the managers at GE, GM, Toyota or some other industrial company will ask themselves: "Why are we letting Exxon-Mobil walk away with billions of dollars? That's our money. We could be making wind turbines / plug-in hybrids / cold fusion, and bring that gravy to our plates where it belongs." GM will not stand by indefinitely watching Exxon make more profit per car (over the life of the vehicle) than GM itself does!

- Jed
--=====================_28810656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 15:35:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UMYtkp029010; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:34:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UMYrTV028989; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:34:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:34:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c7731b$a4a9ef60$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <002701c77313$2a5f25c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 23:34:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74138 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OFF topic was: Re: Biofuel Bonanza <> Never heard of it before but Wikipedia brought me up to date. Seriously, it was only the Iraqi potential "use of WMD in 45 minutes" that got our Government on side. When that proved to be a lie, everything else since has just been face saving and bullshit. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 15:39:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UMdRCE007002; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:39:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UMdPS4006979; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:39:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:39:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QB+rmpXvDNEVPbIz/mJNA2g3rbZW0xdtIRCERdLL7kogDpHMqYi9lBwHSjk/hH9maEDG4+IwuRrdlEiDT1Oe6Knm8fG7i9wj/9eesICj9eyBPwZLXvJlF+J4WhavXLVpGBahzW4EAt1UGhldYGlz+0Z+oZBr2xkKfS37YQfmyKM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jEZNw+ej/dmWGDFbRm4tA4WSmj/P81J/7y5A6uSwlhlmw4QOiiq2cbXWpeWs4ng+kL+vchXrzsad/vpf+IEaS5/Z6xVrjdxoWnDDfbCIoWnYHMTITC1GG7845Xc8lWcokrsVSapzWkto5iMDL4eLpbSczOq1JvN5A5WsO8VSxzM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:39:23 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <460D8351.5070905@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> <460D8351.5070905@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74139 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This may make wood alchohol production useful again, as you can now break down both the lignin AND the cellulose. On 3/30/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > leaking pen wrote: > > Theres direct cellulose conversion now? > > > Yup. Only this year has the Rumpelstiltskin effect come into > fruition - with at least three companies moving from pilot plants to > full production. One leading contender is called Dyadic. > > They are a bit tight-lipped, but the plant pictured here has been in > operation for several months now : > http://www.dyadic-group.com/pdf/DyadicAd.pdf > > Here is an story on them last year from Business Week: > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_51/b4014081.htm > > BTW in Grimm's fairy tale, Rumpelstiltskin spins straw into gold. There > are various ways to do this with biomass. Cellulose ethanol generally > exhibits a net energy content three times higher than corn derived > ethanol based on the weight of input raw material. The economics of this > are staggering. > > Dyadic, started doing this commercially a few months ago by converting > Distiller's Grain - since it is in effect "free" as a low value > co-product of corn fermentation. Their enzyme process and those of other > competitors will work on many kinds of biomass, but the enzymes need to > be tailored to specific raw materials, like corn stalks or saw grass. > There are literally millions of acres in the mid-west where wheat straw > is left standing in the field, after harvest benefiting no one. > > The US Department of Agriculture says that wheat straw hemicellulose can > be easily hydrolyzed enzymatically by using 'Viscostar' from Dyadic, and > that alone could provide several billion gallons of new cellulose > ethanol with zero effect on food - since it is now unused straw from > growing wheat. Same with rice straw and cotton stems and other waste > crops. Of course there is massive biofuel potential in forests, > especially in Canada. None of this has any effect on food cost - as does > corn. > > But hey, you have to learn to crawl before you can run, and that is > where we are now in the process of dumping Arab oil in favor of energy > self-sufficiency. Thank heavens these far-sighted (and lucky) scientists > and inventors neglected to read what's-his-name... > > Jones > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 15:53:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UMrJme003098; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:53:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UMrIG5003079; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:53:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:53:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wN9v5MuDTahclcPq5RKc48PZlk4TPBisDH77mVh/CBIqPQUkprXAHnC4jhzMu6w5xhim64S/JH7npBYmy5UJsQQcqw52FdtjPArTkhX4Gqun4oRQy+B4b/KAtAP+I+nepRI2b6+ICpRjQYp0A07kzqcKL8wKESNiPMDe1+XUhDY= ; X-YMail-OSG: aqy.tY4VM1m00OBmxp5LJsBKzBJ8HnLlFHDaKvOzPBwG3M4Lp2tyGsWZt.tcBwlE3PixkJZzsQ-- Message-ID: <460D94DA.2090603@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:53:14 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF topic was: Re: Biofuel Bonanza References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <002701c77313$2a5f25c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <001401c7731b$a4a9ef60$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001401c7731b$a4a9ef60$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74140 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Nick Palmer wrote: TB >> Oh? Have you had the pleasure of watching "V, the Vendetta"? > Never heard of it before but Wikipedia brought me up to date. Missed that one too but the theme sounds very similar to 'Brazil', no? All of the fascination with future Brit dystopia probably derives from the Burgess classic - 'A Clockwork Orange' ... Kubrick's movie was even more graphic and disturbing ... hey, the music composer even switched sexual orientation shortly thereafter (no kidding- Walter Carlos did become Wendy Carlos, for whatever reason) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 16:16:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UNGUd9011293; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:16:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UNGT5i011267; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:16:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:16:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Nvz79W2zD07wmaNjkwL+HaUMJ84pvMujfD2fYS1E1eHwmygzIOITwfmtG6sMoNzO; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <25882790.1175296587933.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:16:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d82664873513a47e89b864124fe30be46cd81f49743ecfecf5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.43 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74141 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 30, 2007 -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Mar 30, 2007 2:23 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday March 30, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 30 Mar 07 Washington, DC 1. INTELLIGENT DESIGN: THE LHC WILL DO "REAL" CREATION SCIENCE. In November, on schedule, protons will begin circulating in the 27km ring of the Large Hadron Collider. After 15 years and $3.8B, the LHC is nearing completion at CERN in the tunnel used for LEP. The largest and most complex scientific instrument ever built, the LHC involves the collaboration of more than 2,000 physicists from 34 countries. The primary objective is to find the Higgs boson, the particle that catalyzed the creation of mass from energy to form the universe. Nobel laureate Leon Lederman called it "the God particle." It is the only particle predicted by the Standard Model of particle physics that hasn't been found, but physicists are confident that the Higgs will be found by the LHC. There will likely be much more. Supersymmetry (susy) predicts a boson superpartner for each fermion. According to a story in New Scientist, there were hints of both the Higgs and susy in results from the Tevatron. In any case, we are on the threshold of spectacular advances in understanding the creation of the universe. Better a God particle than a God 2. "SECRET" DESIGN: CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE ACCORDING TO OPRAH. Why is "The Secret" suddenly the number-one best seller? When I first heard that "The Secret" by Rhonda Byrne is at the top of the NY Times bestseller list I didn't believe it. Besides, I look at the best seller list in the Sunday Times every week, and I hadn't seen anything called "The Secret" in either Fiction or Nonfiction. But there is a category called, "Advice," that the NYT only posts on the web. You can think of it as books for people who watch daytime television. The great champion of The Secret is Oprah Winfrey. The Secret is a new-age theory about how to get rich, or layed, by just wanting it badly enough. It works for Oprah. The Secret quotes "world renowned quantum physicist" Dr. John Hagelin, who explains it this way, "Quantum mechanics confirms it. Quantum cosmology confirms it. The universe emerges from thought and all of this matter around us is just precipitated thought." Well, so much for the Higgs. There is a tendency to attribute anything weird to quantum mechanics. 3. PAUL C. LAUTERBUR: MRI IMAGING INVENTOR DIED YESTERDAY AT 77. A chemist at the University of Illinois, Lauterbur shared the 2003 Nobel prize with British physicist Sir Peter Mansfield. A call had just issued for increased use of MRI imaging in women with a high risk of developing breast cancer. 4. DARK MATTER: A MOVIE BASED ON A PHYSICS TRAGEDY WINS PRIZE. In 1991 at the University of Iowa, a physics PhD graduate who was not chosen for an academic prize, killed five people at a physics department meeting. Physics departments everywhere initiated policies aimed at recognizing the severe pressure graduate students are under. A film based on the incident has now won the Alfred P. Sloan prize for best feature dealing with science. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 16:30:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UNUaVB016342; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:30:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UNUZ3q016322; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:30:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:30:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <460D9D76.40704@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:29:58 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Magnetic Electric Plasma Confinement References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74142 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Charles M. Brown wrote: > > With Perpetual Motion of the Second Kind any fusion machine producing > energy releasing nuclear reactions will create surplus energy. I think > the diode array will be more of a general purpose electrical energy > and refrigeration source. A modified ME vessel may be usful in > industry and space propulsion Perpetual motion of the second kind? I'm not aware of any perpetual motion. > > PS, another topic: > > The experimental discrete 1N914 diode diode array tested by Tom Schum > consisted of 32 modules in series each module containing 32 parallel > diodes see http://mysite.verizon.net/vzesfls5/files/ > I opened the link, how about a picture of the magnetic coils producing a thermonuclear plasma? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 16:34:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UNYHBP018180; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:34:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UNYFlG018155; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:34:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:34:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070330163747.02521880@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:37:59 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: Katharine Sanderson - Nature In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20070329205146.04ca4848@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74143 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I don't think they were there. At 10:43 PM 3/29/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Perhaps Physics Today will carry something in its April issue... >Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 16:34:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UNYj3s018600; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:34:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UNYiQ8018580; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:34:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:34:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <460D9E83.7070106@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:34:27 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Oil Gang -- The Empire continues its assault References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070328102842.03759900@mindspring.com> <001701c7724e$a79f29b0$6698163f@DFBGQZ91> <460D0FD7.8D13C87@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <460D0FD7.8D13C87@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4ZJNmB.A.LiE.U6ZDGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74144 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Jed wrote: > >``Against this backdrop, Washington is consumed with >"ethanol euphoria." President Bush in his State of the > >Jack Smith > >PS Look for action to take out the Iranian oil fields. > > My comment Tonight on the Glenn Beck Show, Glenn's guests will be answering the question: How does what's happening in Iran relate to Bible prophecy? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 16:49:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2UNn6bw026659; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:49:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2UNn4VQ026639; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:49:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:49:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y6SaGx7JRahCnag9QCjOJF/rGIizC5XOsqPfh21tkp+TKPqkVR8fw0gUkoGWcWGTtP2KRut7j1yh/0Nf3PvP6GgCc8c+nAygRTF6rfpeRGW606JNc3+1oWHgRHcYpe4dlAff0VSkeT1GC1oYhRXmaWSzZ66HKtXdcrf/oVKCAfk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IC8HlnFYoprTGgw9onjfB5LReqjFsT6bRox48Q7RGTau5hG4jM0W4h2v6GG0HOrpQVmRQy2YwyEwH5Uwswtb8ak6FjBZavqIcxLG+QcKDF/xPVayTPWY/p4JyqkEurg7s5dORTt0yBvoG6O8X9OPMHBzzHEYAoPSiyTvyCXf+8M= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:49:02 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF topic was: Re: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <460D94DA.2090603@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <002701c77313$2a5f25c0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <001401c7731b$a4a9ef60$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <460D94DA.2090603@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74145 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 3/30/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > Nick Palmer wrote: > > TB >> Oh? Have you had the pleasure of watching "V, the Vendetta"? > > > Never heard of it before but Wikipedia brought me up to date. > > Missed that one too but the theme sounds very similar to 'Brazil', no? Hmmm, maybe. Think "Phantom of the Opera", "Count of Monte Cristo", "1984", "Clockwork Orange", "Superman", "Batman", "Les Miserables", . . . I could go on. A very eclectic statement on society. One you liberals would love!!! T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 17:29:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2V0TUvQ015290; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:29:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2V0TTAE015273; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:29:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:29:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 10:29:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 31 Mar 2007 00:29:21 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74146 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Auto engine = Hydrino breeder Hi, In an automobile engine with spark plugs, spark voltages are typically in= the thousands to tens of thousands of volts. This is ideal territory for a = Hydrino Breeder, which requires energies up to about 3000 eV. Using energetic = electrons to split the Hydrino molecules has the advantage that it also immediately supplies the electrons required to convert the Hydrinos into = Hydrinohydride. If the fuel comprises a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen, with a few well = shrunken hydrinos thrown in, then in the hot plasma of the spark, the breeding = process might multiply the Hydrinos until they have consumed all the local free = protons in the spark. If the resultant Hydrino molecules in turn consume all the = local O18, in the spark, then the resultant energy release is enough to provide= about 4 hp @ 1800 rpm in a 2 L engine, depending on spark volume. However the effective spark volume would be increased as the energy from the reaction converts nearby gas into plasma, and fast particles from the fusion = reaction contribute to the breeding process. The many uncontrolled variables = result in the whole process varying quite dynamically, and hence so does the power = output, which explains why some have complained that the vehicle was almost = impossible to drive (bucking bronco). This would appear to be the most likely mechanism behind anecdotes of = water powered cars. The primary purpose of initial water pretreatment processes= is to extract heavily shrunken Solar derived Faux D from the water. Joe (of Joe= cell fame), is reported to have placed an Aluminium barrier between the his = cell and the carburetor. This has the effect of filtering the Hydrinos = (-molecules) with the smallest getting through most easily. IOW it tends to shift the = mixture obtained from the water in favor of the most severely shrunken ones, thus ensuring that it is these which get multiplied in the engine. That's what= is needed, because only the small ones can fuse rapidly enough to complete = the process during the combustion stroke. =46urthermore, the plate serves to prevent the Hydrogen-Oxygen mixture = from entering the carburetor, thus explaining the very low water usage claimed= in some cases. This also means that H from the cell can't get into the engine, but that = is unimportant because, there is enough water vapor in the intake air to = supply all the protons required for the breeder (except perhaps when driving through= very arid regions). Note that O18 is only 0.04% of the intake *air*, and since= each O18 requires 1 Hydrino molecule (=3D2 H, or one water molecule), as long = as the humidity of the intake air exceeds 0.04%, there is enough water vapor = present. Though all of this may be appealing to some, it is nevertheless not a = good idea. There are several potential side reactions that can occur, some of which = produce radioactive byproducts (e.g. O15). It should serve more as an explanation= of the process, and as a pointer to the measures which need to be taken to = produce a well controlled and completely clean reaction. E.g. O15 might occur = because of the presence of Nitrogen in the air. In the long term, vehicles may be built with an on board lifetime supply = of either O18 or Ar40, with the power output from the fusion reactor being = used either to produce steam to drive a turbine, or converted directly to = electric power to drive an electric motor. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 19:34:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2V2YI0B005447; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:34:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2V2YGDu005389; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:34:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:34:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wjWJZqlJDpjWhO6jwPgiizKWJGQ1lT4meC7QLGzER5zPDqtJfX5/K3fL6oWUD2DmkJwv6Fjhn89iSrOjnz8caw1GSbrwkzxEFWyrrG/m1EFtlivQFhIVQiyQNZxyb4FSpE7IyLxQcAQthnqxZpEaS5fYTT/0oCNaahUHc11IixY= ; X-YMail-OSG: RUO3uioVM1l.6_eu0J7dHK.YGlUMnCFDQchCB8dccvfhbEpqi_BNmB8GfDYv2iUYW5pXrO97w5FZ4syVwFefKoU5dFp9P7TYk9nDq2mi3HcSxCHQW4Y- Message-ID: <460DC8A2.2070307@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:34:10 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74147 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Khufu solved? If you are (deeply) into Egyptology, have an hour or so to be doing something else while waiting on downloads even with DSL, including special 3D software, and want to view a bizarre but possibly accurate French theory on the construction of Khufu's pyramid - using an internal ramp structure, try this: http://khufu.3ds.com/introduction/revealed/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 30 21:05:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2V4564A017267; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:05:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2V4554a017250; Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:05:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:05:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:04:25 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 31 Mar 2007 04:04:57 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74148 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:50:53 -0500: Hi, [snip] > >The effects are real, a nuclear reaction is involved but may be >the nuclear reaction is not of the fusion kind after all. > >2 out of 3 ain't bad! ;-) [snip] Even addition of a neutron is a form of fusion, though most wouldn't = classify it as such. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 05:07:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2VC7L3r015924; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 05:07:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2VC7Fog015886; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 05:07:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 05:07:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=RJvvKq+3a3rxJAmhbiYRexKnoTcSLy60vtDe6+W2bIP79gN0bG6DSsftFZADdU56+Kfd/uKk0jBL5XgdBRpyrWecmay1zGq04YY6mc9tqEL+PIdm6LxJVongtZDufecsfKQhdQweZVeCQZd+X2m6MBw+1cQkFDpXGEGkFlwLx8k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=MbhvLf2bwhU+E+n9rUo8uew1P4j8UfwHbflPeErbeIHURWIIo58wQbCUoh2sV7H6PmPSJ0hNh7964CXzo0Odl2FITLboGGwCCCV+QTee7UwAmPTTePamZrnx3fEQhUDhzaTU2OnO9BsUkVkFkMDfgoEW9A4TszfZ+37On0UAU10= Message-ID: <357653710703310507i1a3ff3dxd82312eeed07d59a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:07:03 +0200 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_89538_25767759.1175342823243" X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8264b699ebfe68e1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74149 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Gravity is experimentally non conservative ------=_Part_89538_25767759.1175342823243 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.springerlink.com/content/k435764461547576/ To a very small degreee but yet. I wonder if this effect could be behind the global warming? David ------=_Part_89538_25767759.1175342823243 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
 
To a very small degreee but yet. I wonder if this effect could be behind the global warming?
 
David
------=_Part_89538_25767759.1175342823243-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 07:06:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2VE6nLF003069; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:06:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2VE6l5k003051; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:06:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:06:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fYKQzBqPSqZyAoLJZyplwkfmq0pn6/Di+zmmso452A0HdqLjEuwAXjhU6KotwOz9ZSVljUuD7HqsMUSXVj7i2X0Nfpmzx0WDZ5ZFInz6P8IiZCOKKlUSpr26tFr4DZBN/rOFiwtTF+S9lh9SKpdiViAQHeZtRCOGDugdwQCZC7Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=RU5EvU2rgQOdXZ+ZJBVFiiGTjXuXpiwNanKyovhJZrd6NVWEmcadAWUJjIfb9sQT/U6I70JYw8P9P0jdlqCgPqawoqkXkTdweckjA8r9W4ndpSW8iW6cRsN9p9qIT83WboBkVA2I5kU3T3idHjVeM/cwWv357XtMVaSBA3pUeKQ= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:06:45 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Khufu solved? In-Reply-To: <460DC8A2.2070307@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <460DC8A2.2070307@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <-ZfmGC.A.mv.3rmDGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74150 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Neat; but, I could have done without the hokey narrator avatar. :-) Terry On 3/30/07, Jones Beene wrote: > If you are (deeply) into Egyptology, have an hour or so to be doing > something else while waiting on downloads even with DSL, including > special 3D software, and want to view a bizarre but possibly accurate > French theory on the construction of Khufu's pyramid - using an internal > ramp structure, try this: > > http://khufu.3ds.com/introduction/revealed/ > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 07:18:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2VEI9Dd009508; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:18:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2VEI6VF009472; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:18:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:18:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <460E796B.408307FB@centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:08:27 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> <460D8351.5070905@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xp" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74151 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com leaking pen wrote: This may make wood alchohol production useful again, as you can now break down both the lignin AND the cellulose. Hi All, Methanol from coal should be a crash priority of the US government. The Iranians are almost certain to mine the straits of Hormuz if their oil fields are attacked, and the Oil Gang is thus guaranteed a financial killing; but, as Jones points out, most of us will be waiting in long lines. Of course, methanol can be made from wood and from the methane coming out of oil wells and land fills -- almost any organic feed stock can be turned into menthanol. The safety and practicality of methanol as been shown for years at the Indianapolis 500. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 07:29:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2VESnqo014729; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:28:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2VESmb7014704; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:28:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:28:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <460E7BEC.7F7B0E23@centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:19:08 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> <460D8351.5070905@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74152 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi All, Just an afterthought: When is "two queens" a winning hand? Answer: When they are the major shareholders in British Petroleum and Roayal Dutch Shell. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 07:30:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2VEU5aD017787; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:30:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2VEU4L6017777; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:30:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:30:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Lc4yOVZBXzvBefYPjp0DuBCLJvXlXMXjE30KU3O0yeniVDyIf9s8I7YCdkX2v0/W7GJRf6pZmuUFaBZR9dJzB0A+S+ICrAMbFbnxPB2VPLPhpmjs5+5szsU+5VWuS55xahitslfjtQq1lb8cOxu8TOfsQgrzp4PNm7njtJta7yc= ; X-YMail-OSG: P40Z.C4VM1kZTBDkCIU5wVCbzGvU3YnXUd521b4qpSlRQqW5iG.FwnoOX.BLBa502ZJatP9BkurgI3WgtLRlyEJPiyCTYXTl46FlhkOFuRABkyb_aKE- Message-ID: <460E7067.2070308@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 07:29:59 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Khufu solved? References: <460DC8A2.2070307@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74153 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com FWIW: Houdin is an outsider- the tight-knit clique of Egyptologists have rejected his theory - sight unseen; even though it makes far more sense than any alternative to an architect. Hundreds of architects in France have seen this - and none can come up with a better solution - which does NOT make it right, of course. There is always brute force. The crucial piece of evidence in support of an internal network of spiral tunnels comes from a microgravity test carried out in 1986 which is probably how Houdin (an i less than a magician?) got involved. French scientists had found that peculiar anomaly - a less-dense structure in the form of the spiral ramp within the pyramid. "They had it in the drawer for 15 years because it could not be explained. But when we put my drawings over it, there it was," M. Houdin said. "It is strong evidence, but not proof, that the tunnels still exist inside the pyramid and that they were not filled in," he said. Talk about a "$uper -Geraldo- $pecial" grand opening !! That fool is probably foaming at the mouth to get an invite - so as to make amends for the giant Al Capone vault fizzle (also in '86 curiously). Matter of fact - Geraldo could be behind this whole thing ;-) Terry Blanton wrote: > Neat; but, I could have done without the hokey narrator avatar. :-) > > Terry > > On 3/30/07, Jones Beene wrote: >> If you are (deeply) into Egyptology, have an hour or so to be doing >> something else while waiting on downloads even with DSL, including >> special 3D software, and want to view a bizarre but possibly accurate >> French theory on the construction of Khufu's pyramid - using an internal >> ramp structure, try this: >> >> http://khufu.3ds.com/introduction/revealed/ >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 14:29:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2VLTe16018789; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:29:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2VLTUN2018744; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:29:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:29:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 07:29:28 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7lkt03l8vgs68ulf628knfn137ghkn830f@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:29:28 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74154 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Auto engine may be Hydrino breeder Hi, In an automobile engine with spark plugs, spark voltages are typically in= the thousands to tens of thousands of volts. This is ideal territory for a = Hydrino Breeder, which requires energies up to about 3000 eV. Using energetic = electrons to split the Hydrino molecules has the advantage that it also immediately supplies the electrons required to convert the Hydrinos into = Hydrinohydride. If the fuel comprises a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen, with a few well = shrunken hydrinos thrown in, then in the hot plasma of the spark, the breeding = process might multiply the Hydrinos until they have consumed all the local free = protons in the spark. If the resultant Hydrino molecules in turn consume all the = local O18, in the spark, then the resultant energy release is enough to provide= about 4 hp @ 1800 rpm in a 2 L engine, depending on spark volume. However the effective spark volume would be increased as the energy from the reaction converts nearby gas into plasma, and fast particles from the fusion = reaction contribute to the breeding process. The many uncontrolled variables = result in the whole process varying quite dynamically, and hence so does the power = output, which explains why some have complained that the vehicle was almost = impossible to drive (bucking bronco). This would appear to be the most likely mechanism behind anecdotes of = water powered cars. The primary purpose of initial water pretreatment processes= is to extract heavily shrunken Solar derived Faux D from the water. Joe (of Joe= cell fame), is reported to have placed an Aluminium barrier between the his = cell and the carburetor. This has the effect of filtering the Hydrinos = (-molecules) with the smallest getting through most easily. IOW it tends to shift the = mixture obtained from the water in favor of the most severely shrunken ones, thus ensuring that it is these which get multiplied in the engine. That's what= is needed, because only the small ones can fuse rapidly enough to complete = the process during the combustion stroke. =46urthermore, the plate serves to prevent the Hydrogen-Oxygen mixture = from entering the carburetor, thus explaining the very low water usage claimed= in some cases. This also means that H from the cell can't get into the engine, but that = is unimportant because, there is enough water vapor in the intake air to = supply all the protons required for the breeder (except perhaps when driving through= very arid regions). Note that O18 is only 0.04% of the intake *air*, and since= each O18 requires 1 Hydrino molecule (=3D2 H, or one water molecule), as long = as the humidity of the intake air exceeds 0.04%, there is enough water vapor = present. Though all of this may be appealing to some, it is nevertheless not a = good idea. There are several potential side reactions that can occur, some of which = produce radioactive byproducts (e.g. O15). It should serve more as an explanation= of the process, and as a pointer to the measures which need to be taken to = produce a well controlled and completely clean reaction. E.g. O15 might occur = because of the presence of Nitrogen in the air. In the long term, vehicles may be built with an on board lifetime supply = of either O18 or Ar40, with the power output from the fusion reactor being = used either to produce steam to drive a turbine, or converted directly to = electric power to drive an electric motor. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 15:08:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l2VM8Xua005421; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:08:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l2VM8PGg005357; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:08:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:08:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QNBRQWpAfLHkouwUzGWPZPmH7zQp7No/+1cbAvr1CQqLdE6uny3uPsnA29ljxdnwli8a1jv6rqDbNHBxdJrT0qQUUbOSiugOMtCmS2IG/toe44EEgf6s0DyyyVc3JGXxpx7F8X9lFLtpvROhLgKrWIUrYq+9HwioaeIt734iMcc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MpXau26Fc8vbMn0VCY5bBbzVhtMeONcN06T0W/0R8Ufa5TltFHGO9Rq8OpECLUFD2IPgmV18NEYHZUHNWrgdE5KTxBENhrYZlu82m1T+jROLeO/MMJ2blNUcogavAwC4QMsaJH+oflKtv75OshDasqXN2OqO6fp0IUtwRsj3Ln4= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:08:22 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <460E796B.408307FB@centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> <460D8351.5070905@pacbell.net> <460E796B.408307FB@centurytel.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74155 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 3/31/07, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > The Iranians are almost certain to mine the > straits of Hormuz if their oil fields are attacked, Ocean mines are no longer a threat. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 17:56:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l310uH9I002346; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:56:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l310uBQQ002318; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:56:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:56:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Auto engine may be Hydrino breeder Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 10:55:31 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7lkt03l8vgs68ulf628knfn137ghkn830f@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <7lkt03l8vgs68ulf628knfn137ghkn830f@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 1 Apr 2007 00:56:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74156 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sun, 01 Apr 2007 07:29:28 = +1000: Hi, Correction: [snip] >in the spark. If the resultant Hydrino molecules in turn consume all the= local >O18, in the spark, then the resultant energy release is enough to = provide about >4 hp @ 1800 rpm in a 2 L engine, depending on spark volume. However the Due to the fact that the compression ratio of most engines is about 10:1,= the density of the gas in the spark is 10 times higher than I used for my = initial calculation, hence the amount of O18 is also ten times greater, so the = power would be about 40 hp @ 1800 rpm (engine capacity is irrelevant, since = most of the action takes place in the spark itself). Number of cylinders and 2/4 = stroke is important however. I assumed 4 cylinders/4 stroke. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 19:21:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l312LHpk025809; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:21:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l312LFHX025798; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:21:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:21:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <460F1703.3010206@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:20:51 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Auto engine may be Hydrino breeder References: <7lkt03l8vgs68ulf628knfn137ghkn830f@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <7lkt03l8vgs68ulf628knfn137ghkn830f@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74157 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Hi, > >In an automobile engine with spark plugs, spark voltages are typically in the thousands to tens of thousands of volts. This is ideal territory for a Hydrino Breeder, > Interesting post Robin. I'm wondering if the right design of spark plug could react hydrinos. > > >If the fuel comprises a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen, with a few well shrunken hydrinos thrown in, then in the hot plasma of the spark, the breeding. > So, if the refinery had a hydrino generator, and the hydrino hydride were incorporated into the fuel, then the plasma could be expected to produce anomalous energy. Perhaps fuel already contains naturally occurring hydrinos, or perhaps they're in the air. > Joe (of Joe cell fame), is reported to have placed an Aluminium barrier between the his cell and > So you think that the Joe Cell is a hydrino generator. > > completely clean reaction. E.g. O15 might occur because of >the presence of Nitrogen in the air. > > Doesn't O15 occur naturally? >In the long term, vehicles may be built with an on board lifetime supply of either O18 or Ar40, > Don't O18 and Ar40 occur naturally? I think that the hydrino is the missing part of this. I think that this would make for a very good experiment. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 19:25:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l312P0gT011019; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:25:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l312OxHE011006; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:24:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:24:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <460F17EF.3050801@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:24:47 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <460D4293.8030402@pacbell.net> <460D6966.9050506@pacbell.net> <460D8351.5070905@pacbell.net> <460E796B.408307FB@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74158 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Terry Blanton wrote: > On 3/31/07, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > >> The Iranians are almost certain to mine the >> straits of Hormuz if their oil fields are attacked, > > I'm a lot more concerned about the rocket propelled torpedo. Did anybody listen to the Glen Beck interview of Jerry B Jenkins and Joel Rosenberg? I emailed Glen inquiring about an archived audio. I'm old enough to remember questioning Russian and Iran becoming allies. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 20:04:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3134cw6004298; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:04:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3134bfZ004281; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:04:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:04:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c7740a$78cd1670$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:04:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74159 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic Electric Plasma Confinement Charles Brown wrote, I have been thinking of for years that combines magnetic and electric fields for critique as an open source offering. The magnetic part is provided by hoop coils in a row like a egg shaped wire and paper lantern with the largest diameter hoop in the center and progressively smaller diameter hoops at the ends. The current in the center coil is much greater than that of the other coils so the magnetic field has a small waist in the center. The hoops are held by a strong insulating material which supports an electric gradient with the center grounded and both ends positively charged Howdy Charles, Interesting thought. We have been studying ways to build a "modular" test rig to further examine a "eyewall" shaped water vortex we produced during a series of tests developing a high speed mixer. The shape of the water vortex differs from a "typical" parabolic ( tornado" shape in that a near perfect cylinder shape appears. This is similar to a hurricane shape vortex with the near vertical eyewall except the cylinder is under one inch diameter in our tests. We have some PDF pics for anyone that wishes to study these cylinders. WE have a series of experiments we wish to run including magnetic, electric conductive coils , sonics, laser, microwave and laser. In one configuration we are studying we plan to try to make the eyewall egg shaped as well as hourglass shaped. This mat be possible by using an old fashion "Gibson" formula venturi and a Lazell type flow nozzle ( expands rather than contracts). By injecting added water into the converging cone tangentially we think we can " tailor make" different shaped water vortex. One of the factors we also want to include is the "mysterious" sympathetic vortexes spun off the main cylinder. These vortexes form and dissappear randomly and are nearly always horizontal or diagonal in position. Some can be extremely robust before they decay. We too are thinking of a series of cone shaped spiral springs and neodym magnets positioned around the vortex cylinder and hopefully surround an eggshaped and hourglass segment in the eyewall. Our efforts are toward finding methods of desalinization of seawater with the added benefits of reconstructing the minerals and salts so as to separate a type of granite material in lieu of salt. Chickens produce eggs, egg shells are calcium. Removing calcium from a chicken's food and water supply does not prevent the chicken from producing a calcium eggshell. Now if we can figure out where all the granite came from in those west Texas hills we could be a step closer.. maybe.... transmutation??? hmmm. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 31 22:08:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3158BTC017322; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:08:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l315890U017308; Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:08:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:08:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Auto engine may be Hydrino breeder Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 15:07:32 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7lkt03l8vgs68ulf628knfn137ghkn830f@4ax.com> <460F1703.3010206@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <460F1703.3010206@usfamily.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 1 Apr 2007 05:08:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74160 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to thomas malloy's message of Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:20:51 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>In an automobile engine with spark plugs, spark voltages are typically = in the thousands to tens of thousands of volts. This is ideal territory = for a Hydrino Breeder,=20 >> >Interesting post Robin. I'm wondering if the right design of spark plug=20 >could react hydrinos. I have always thought so, however breeding is even better. >>If the fuel comprises a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen, with a few well= shrunken hydrinos thrown in, then in the hot plasma of the spark, the = breeding.=20 >> >So, if the refinery had a hydrino generator, and the hydrino hydride=20 >were incorporated into the fuel, then the plasma could be expected to=20 >produce anomalous energy.=20 Refineries shouldn't be necessary. When you have a breeder, 1 hydrino is = enough to make all you need from plain water (in theory; in practice, it might = take a few more ;). >Perhaps fuel already contains naturally=20 >occurring hydrinos, or perhaps they're in the air. I would expect to find them in the water vapor in air, though not many. > >> Joe (of Joe cell fame), is reported to have placed an Aluminium = barrier between the his cell and >> >So you think that the Joe Cell is a hydrino generator. Yes, I always have done. In fact I suspect that "orgone" is just another = name for Hydrinos. > >> >> completely clean reaction. E.g. O15 might occur because of >>the presence of Nitrogen in the air. >> >> >Doesn't O15 occur naturally? No, O15 is radioactive with a half life of only 2 minutes, so even if it = is created (e.g. in lightning), it soon decays. However if everyone were continually spewing it out their exhaust, we = would soon have a real problem on our hands. One way around this might be to replace the air being drawn into the = engine with steam, thus removing nitrogen from the equation. However this still = leaves the possibility of creating radioactive F or Ne isotopes. How serious a = problem that would be, would have to be determined experimentally. > >>In the long term, vehicles may be built with an on board lifetime = supply of either O18 or Ar40, >> >Don't O18 and Ar40 occur naturally?=20 Yes, that's why an on board supply would be cheap. You would buy a car = with a lifetime supply of fuel (in a small bottle of compressed gas in the = engine compartment). >I think that the hydrino is the=20 >missing part of this. I think that this would make for a very good=20 >experiment. So do I, now if I could only find someone with a decent lab that didn't = start laughing when they saw me coming. BTW if an engine can be a breeder, then there would probably still be a = few Hydrino molecules in the exhaust, so recycling a fraction of the exhaust = should be enough to ensure a continuous supply. BTW, since about 1 % of the air is argon, it may be possible to react = this directly as well as the O18 in the air. That would bump up the power = output to=20 2200 hp (if all the Argon were used), obviously soon destroying the = engine. Variation in the size of initial hydrinos in the compressed air prior to ignition would have a huge impact on power output, as size severely = affects the fusion rate. Since none of the water power enthusiasts know anything = about this, they will get a random mix of Hydrinos in their engine (and that's when = they are lucky enough to get any at all), and the power output will consequently = be extremely variable. This is where a consistent supply of single level = Hydrinos could have huge impact on the utility of the engine. Some experimentation= would be needed to determine the optimal Hydrino size. Oxygen is likely to react much faster than Ar because it has a much = smaller positive charge on the nucleus, so it remains to be experimentally = determined just what contribution Ar could make. BTW a quick check reveals that O18 actually yields 16 MeV rather than 10 = MeV, so the 43 hp previously calculated should really have been about 70 hp. Actually, these numbers are pretty meaningless. What one would actually = get in practice depends greatly on how fast the fusion reaction is, and that = could be anywhere from nanoseconds to years. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/