From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 03:21:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA04604; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 03:20:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 03:20:15 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 02:24:54 -0800 To: "Colin Quinney" , From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"dS8rV.0.q71.U1M0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51006 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:50 PM 6/30/3, Colin Quinney wrote: >http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html > >http://depalma.pair.com/GenerationOfUnidirectionalForce.html > >http://depalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity05/SecretOfForceMachine.html These are very interesting pages. It would take some time to understand everthing. I had heard of Bruce de Palma, but was not familiar with his work. I had heard it was fully discredited, but that doesn't necessarily mean much! Ill say one thing, if the equation for "od" as a function of angular and precessionla velocity is correct the effect should be unmistakable and easily produced. BTW, the isomorpism I suggested earlier does not indicate that anything of the sort is expected. The comments I have in regard to Nicholas Reiter's chirality experiments were based strictly on the field isomorphism that I proposed here earlier. One thing that is made clear from browsing the de Palma site is that use of a pendulum for measuring M_i/M_g is not a valid approach if the mass to be measured has any net angular momentum, and its angle, with respect to vertical, changes with the pendulum oscillation. A mechanism is necessary to keep the sample in vertical alignment as the pendulum swings. The experiment shooting the balls, one spinning, one not, into the air was a most interesting experiment, or would have been provided it had been done in a vacuum. It also makes one wonder about the effect of a spinning hemisphere on the front of a vehicle on the vehicle's aerodynamic drag! This is especially true if the energy for the rotation comes from the aerodynmic drag itself. The ability to reduce drag by use of a rotating front surface could have lots of applications, both in air and water. And if it works on the front, why not the back as well? The one on the front might be veined so as to reduce air or water pressure there, though that should happen with no veins at all, and the one on the back veined so as to increase air or water pressure there. A ship hull comprised of two submerged pontoons, each with counter rotating hemi-spherical shells comes to mind. A similar aircraft design might work too. I wonder if it would work? As for gyros, I have a very different take on prospective research based upon personal experience. In the 1960's I had the opportunity to get my hands on a surplus gyrroscope that was DC driven and mounted in gimbals with brushes. It was about 10 inches in diameter if memory serves. The bearings were lose I think, and the gyro much used, but it was fully enclosed in an aluminum casing, so you could not see the insides. The gyro was capable of precessing rapidly in its own bearings - and this had not much to do with the gimbals. Now, here is the thing. You could sit in a chair and torque on the gyro and make yourself spin around in the chair. It had lots of angular momentum. However, with just the right touch, you could start the thing precessing in its own bearings (I think) and it would suddenly flip over 180 deg. in the gimbal with amazing speed. This flip did not conserve angular momenum. I saw it and felt it myself and was well aware at the time it was a mysterious effect. I now wonder if precession can indeed reduce angular momentum, or if somehow the inertia of the gyro was de-linked from the vacuum, or even momentarily reversed. There is also the mystery as to why the flip, which happened without any hope of control from the initiator (me), stopped at exactly 180 degrees. On occasion I have been talked out of believing it actually happened, but I know darn well it did! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 05:30:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA31400; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 05:29:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 05:29:50 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c33fcc$829cd3a0$6501a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: bifiler coil Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:30:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33FAA.F61B99A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"1GwB42.0.Yg7.-wN0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51007 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33FAA.F61B99A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been off Vortex-l for over 2 yrs, but I am doing some more = experiments recently. I could use some thoughts from some magnetic = field experts (or anyone else with an opinion) on a variation of a = bifilar coil I am building. The coil would be wound with 12 ga 2 = conductor romex on a short wide flanged wooden spool. The height of the = spool is equal to the width of the romex 7/16 in. and the flange is 28 = in. dia. The air core is 12 in. dia. At the core end of the coil the = black and white conductor are joined. The other end is connected to a = driving circuit. The configuration should cause magnetic lines of force = to converge on the center of the coil approximating a "planer monopole" = or "B field singularity". Any comments? =20 _____________________________________________________________flange OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I = IOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO white --------------------------------------I---------> = <----------I-------------------------------------- side view of = coil & spool OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I core IOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO = Black _____________________I__________________I_____________________flange Jeff Fink ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33FAA.F61B99A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been off Vortex-l for over 2 = yrs, but I am=20 doing some more experiments recently.  I could use some   = thoughts from some magnetic field experts (or anyone else with an = opinion)=20 on a variation of a bifilar coil I am building.  The coil would be = wound=20 with 12 ga 2 conductor romex on a short wide flanged wooden spool.  = The=20 height of the spool is equal to the width of the romex 7/16 in. and the = flange=20 is 28 in. dia.  The air core is 12 in. dia.  At the core end = of the=20 coil the black and white conductor are joined.  The other end is = connected=20 to a driving circuit.  The configuration should cause magnetic = lines of=20 force to converge on the center of the coil approximating a "planer = monopole" or=20 "B field singularity".  Any comments? 
 
_____________________________________________________________fla= nge
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I       =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;         IOOOOOOOOOOOOOO= O =20 white
--------------------------------------I--------->  =            =20 <----------I--------------------------------------   &n= bsp;  =20 side view of coil & spool
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I       =          core  &nb= sp;           &nbs= p; =20 IOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  Black
_____________________I__________________I_____________________fl= ange
 
Jeff Fink
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C33FAA.F61B99A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 07:34:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA24697; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:33:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:33:17 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701143313.4380.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:33:13 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"9Dhcg3.0.e16.hkP0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i havent checked those links myself, but i will, sounds interesting. as to the rotating hemisphere craft... nothing new there. i cant remember if it was an issue of destinies or another sf mag, but there was one way back when when , i think poul anderson, might have been another author, described such a vessel. as to the gyroscope, did the precession appear harmonic? solowly increasing in angle as it spun? it might be that it was coming around and was about to hit 90 degrees , which would then have caused a downward force on it as it passed 90, which would have slammed it to 180. angular momentum IS conserved in such a case. try it with ye old spinning bicycle wheel, once you twist said wheel to 180, you dont feel anymore forces agains motion (although your arms get a little twisted, lol.) unless im missing something here, which i might be. my forte's more chemistry and biology than physics. (though im working on changing that!) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 08:44:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA26668; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:43:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:43:08 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:03:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"0v1VZ2.0.VW6.BmQ0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51009 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, I came across Depalmas work with gyros while researching Kozyrev. Like you, I don't find the spinning ball experiments very convincing, and I suspect something like the magnus effect is the cause of the variation in fall time. It's worth noting that Kozyrev never claimed to see a mass variation with perfect gyros. In his paper on "The mechanics of time" he mentions spinning up a gyro CW and CCW with no noticable effect. He only notes variation with gyros that are oscillating, he gives the example of a gyro with poor bearings which would go into vibration and produce a mass variation. Later he designs devices to improve on the effect, but it's interesting to me that you would notice similar strange anomalies with your "rattling" gyro. Of course, accurately weighing a jitterbugging gyro is a unique sort of challenge... K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:25 AM To: Colin Quinney; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter At 8:50 PM 6/30/3, Colin Quinney wrote: >http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html > >http://depalma.pair.com/GenerationOfUnidirectionalForce.html > >http://depalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity05/SecretOfForceMachine.html These are very interesting pages. It would take some time to understand everthing. I had heard of Bruce de Palma, but was not familiar with his work. I had heard it was fully discredited, but that doesn't necessarily mean much! Ill say one thing, if the equation for "od" as a function of angular and precessionla velocity is correct the effect should be unmistakable and easily produced. BTW, the isomorpism I suggested earlier does not indicate that anything of the sort is expected. The comments I have in regard to Nicholas Reiter's chirality experiments were based strictly on the field isomorphism that I proposed here earlier. One thing that is made clear from browsing the de Palma site is that use of a pendulum for measuring M_i/M_g is not a valid approach if the mass to be measured has any net angular momentum, and its angle, with respect to vertical, changes with the pendulum oscillation. A mechanism is necessary to keep the sample in vertical alignment as the pendulum swings. The experiment shooting the balls, one spinning, one not, into the air was a most interesting experiment, or would have been provided it had been done in a vacuum. It also makes one wonder about the effect of a spinning hemisphere on the front of a vehicle on the vehicle's aerodynamic drag! This is especially true if the energy for the rotation comes from the aerodynmic drag itself. The ability to reduce drag by use of a rotating front surface could have lots of applications, both in air and water. And if it works on the front, why not the back as well? The one on the front might be veined so as to reduce air or water pressure there, though that should happen with no veins at all, and the one on the back veined so as to increase air or water pressure there. A ship hull comprised of two submerged pontoons, each with counter rotating hemi-spherical shells comes to mind. A similar aircraft design might work too. I wonder if it would work? As for gyros, I have a very different take on prospective research based upon personal experience. In the 1960's I had the opportunity to get my hands on a surplus gyrroscope that was DC driven and mounted in gimbals with brushes. It was about 10 inches in diameter if memory serves. The bearings were lose I think, and the gyro much used, but it was fully enclosed in an aluminum casing, so you could not see the insides. The gyro was capable of precessing rapidly in its own bearings - and this had not much to do with the gimbals. Now, here is the thing. You could sit in a chair and torque on the gyro and make yourself spin around in the chair. It had lots of angular momentum. However, with just the right touch, you could start the thing precessing in its own bearings (I think) and it would suddenly flip over 180 deg. in the gimbal with amazing speed. This flip did not conserve angular momenum. I saw it and felt it myself and was well aware at the time it was a mysterious effect. I now wonder if precession can indeed reduce angular momentum, or if somehow the inertia of the gyro was de-linked from the vacuum, or even momentarily reversed. There is also the mystery as to why the flip, which happened without any hope of control from the initiator (me), stopped at exactly 180 degrees. On occasion I have been talked out of believing it actually happened, but I know darn well it did! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 08:47:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA27770; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:45:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:45:32 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.222] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Magnetic fields don't exist Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:44:59 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2003 15:45:00.0019 (UTC) FILETIME=[BAC84C30:01C33FE7] Resent-Message-ID: <"14ggQ1.0.qn6.RoQ0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51010 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please keep an open mind, here I am attempting to argue to magnetic fields though useful constructs of fiction, they are not really a separate phenomena to electric fields. Merely logical distortions of electric fields. No particle posses a magnetic field. No particle can detect a magnetic field. Magnetic fields are created by moving charges, I'm going to ignore the subject of spin and permanent magnetism as too complex to be tacked for now. Magnetic fields are created by moving a charge, and felt by moving a charge through the field, it then feels an electric field/force 90 degrees to the magnetic field. (so in other words when charges are moved relative to other charges in certain ways they experience a force that pushes positive charges and negative charges equally but in opposite directions) First it is to be understood (this seems to be conventionally accepted) that both magnetic and electric fields don't interact, bend compress (except in out drawings), but merely sum. (In the past on this list other have noted that fact about magnetic fields, and at MIT's website I watched a video where a professor taught that electric fields did the same) Another thing to realize is that a certain area of space may appear to have a magnetic field to one observer, and have none or a magnetic field of a different direction or strength to an observer in a different inertial frame. (as is the case if you are standing by a large charged ball, to you it creates no magnetic field, but if you move you suddenly witness a magnetic fields appear, as you accelerate it gets stronger, as you change your direction it changes it's direction) I have two proposals (applicable under different conditions) explaining how when a charge is moving it's electric field might be distorted to create an electric field that we have been calling magnetic. First imagine a long wire such as a radio transmitting antenna, imagine a lone electron (from the wire) in space moving up and down. The electric field of the electron (which expands out into the infinity of space at the speed of light) is continually bent and distorted by the acceleration, just like if you wiggle a hose side to side the water rather than forming a straight stream, it will take on a wave shape. The electric field in the axis of travel will simply be compressed and stretched (made stronger and weaker, similar to the way a speaker makes sound) but perpendicular the lines once straight will now be bent, this should also effect the force direction. So if we now go back to our radio transmitting antenna, we know the electrons electric field still exists outside of the wire even though we don't detect it because of the protons electric field. The electrons field is now bent, the proton cancels the component of the electrons field that is 90 degrees to the wire, leaving just the component that is parallel to the wire. This would create an electric field that is consistent with the electric field felt by a receiving antenna, or any example where AC (or other time changing current) passes through a wire and induces a voltage in a parallel wire. Lets say that rather than having a time varying current, we have steady DC passing through a wire, this wire is approached by another parallel wire. Relativity demands that when something is moving it is distorted and contracts in the axis of motion. So the electric field, if we view it as a sphere is when moving a squashed flattened sphere. This would increase the strength of the field as it's density is greater (it has been compressed) so it is logical (and in my mind inescapable if you buy relativistic contraction of space) that the negative electric field radially out from the wire would be increased, this is inline with Hoopers findings. So going back to our two parallel wires approaching one another (one with a steady DC current) we see that the electrons electric field is distorted by the relativistic motion, this would at first appear to do nothing to induce a voltage along the wire, but we have missed a component. The squashed sphere which we use to envision distortions in the electrons field has an equator, now consider the plane of this equator like the rings of Saturn. As the wires are approaching each other, the plane of the equator is rotated as the electrons are now moving not just past the wire, but towards it as well. (on an angle) This yet again produces a component of the electric field that is in the right direction to induce a voltage, that we see induced in motors and generators. If this is indeed enough to account can be tested, all that is needed is to do the math (which I can't) to see if the space contraction is enough to account for the voltage induced in the approaching wire. (and in the other example if the bend is steep enough to account) If anyone is interested but can't fully get a grip of what I'm saying, I could produce some images to clarify, and post it to a website. Now lets cover the aspect of force. Lets take two parallel wires with currents in the same direction causing attraction. If you put yourself moving along as an electron in one of the wires, you see the protons in the other wire zipping past (ok, current is quite slow, but if I had the drift too slow it would be boring), because the electrons (or at least some of them) in the other wire are moving along with you, so you see proton as moving. Now we have established that moving protons electric field would be compressed, hence the component where the flux lines are perpendicular to their motion would be strengthened, so the electrons in one wire would be attracted to the protons compressed and strengthened field. The electrons in the other wire would feel the same increased attraction to the protons. Meanwhile the protons in the wire would feel the electrons in the opposite wire had become more attractive because from it's view the electrons in the opposite wire are moving and they have become more attractive because of their distorted field. This works for repulsion also, then the electrons in one wire see the protons field distorted, but the electrons moving at double the speed more so, hence the electrons see the electric field of the other wires electrons increased. (Thinking on this, it would only make sense if the force was quadrupled with double the speed, which I assume would be the case) Please keep an open mind, I realize it's a bit of a thought getting rid of magnetic fields for distortions in electric fields, but please don't dismiss this. If you don't think this is right, please do think about how (assuming you agree with relativity) the electric field of from the electrons moving in a wire must be distorted and act in a manner like I say, and calculate the force. (and show your calculations so other can study it for errors) Because while I might be wrong about it being the real cause of what we call a magnetic field, it seems relativistically it must still exist and have some effect. _________________________________________________________________ Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN Personals! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 08:48:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA29615; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:47:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:47:57 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030701164710.006a4af4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:47:10 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"b7UJj1.0.fE7.jqQ0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51011 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While we are discussing gyros......... Imagine a black box with three fixed orthogonal silent running gyros. Ask someone to estimate its mass by rotating it. Their estimate could well exceed the mass of any material known, even if they assumed that the mass was all concentrated in a surface layer. But materials are stuffed full of various rotating thingees at various different scales. Now suppose that these milli, micro, pico, nano gyros were arranged by nature so that instead of increasing the rotational inertia in the manner of our fixed gyros, they actually reduced it. In effect they are cunning servomechanical devices which amplify any rotational moment we apply to the black box. In this case our fixed gyros will be seen as counteracting the servo mechanical action of the natural gyros thereby revealing the true rotational inertia of the box, plus all its contents. Let us now suppose that not only do these natural internal gyros reduce the boxes rotational inertia, but they also, in some way we have yet to understand, reduce the boxes "linear" inertia as well. It will mean that when we use a force to accelerate a body we only supply a control force. Most of the force needed comes from the rearrangement of the internal gyros. The outward manifestation of this internal rearrangement is the strain of the body during acceleration and the remnant hysteresis strain resulting from the change in velocity through the EM aether. The servo-mechanical effectiveness of the internal gyros will decrease as they rotate around from their initial positions and so the applied force required will increase, i.e. the apparent mass will increase. I wonder if a box containing running fixed gyros would increase the linear inertia of the box relative to the same box with stationary fixed gyros. Frank At 02:24 am 01-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >At 8:50 PM 6/30/3, Colin Quinney wrote: >>http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html >> >>http://depalma.pair.com/GenerationOfUnidirectionalForce.html >> >>http://depalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity05/SecretOfForceMachine.html > > >These are very interesting pages. It would take some time to understand >everthing. I had heard of Bruce de Palma, but was not familiar with his >work. I had heard it was fully discredited, but that doesn't necessarily >mean much! Ill say one thing, if the equation for "od" as a function of >angular and precessionla velocity is correct the effect should be >unmistakable and easily produced. BTW, the isomorpism I suggested earlier >does not indicate that anything of the sort is expected. > >The comments I have in regard to Nicholas Reiter's chirality experiments >were based strictly on the field isomorphism that I proposed here earlier. >One thing that is made clear from browsing the de Palma site is that use >of a pendulum for measuring M_i/M_g is not a valid approach if the mass to >be measured has any net angular momentum, and its angle, with respect to >vertical, changes with the pendulum oscillation. A mechanism is necessary >to keep the sample in vertical alignment as the pendulum swings. > >The experiment shooting the balls, one spinning, one not, into the air was >a most interesting experiment, or would have been provided it had been done >in a vacuum. It also makes one wonder about the effect of a spinning >hemisphere on the front of a vehicle on the vehicle's aerodynamic drag! >This is especially true if the energy for the rotation comes from the >aerodynmic drag itself. The ability to reduce drag by use of a rotating >front surface could have lots of applications, both in air and water. And >if it works on the front, why not the back as well? The one on the front >might be veined so as to reduce air or water pressure there, though that >should happen with no veins at all, and the one on the back veined so as to >increase air or water pressure there. A ship hull comprised of two >submerged pontoons, each with counter rotating hemi-spherical shells comes >to mind. A similar aircraft design might work too. I wonder if it would >work? > >As for gyros, I have a very different take on prospective research based >upon personal experience. In the 1960's I had the opportunity to get my >hands on a surplus gyrroscope that was DC driven and mounted in gimbals >with brushes. It was about 10 inches in diameter if memory serves. The >bearings were lose I think, and the gyro much used, but it was fully >enclosed in an aluminum casing, so you could not see the insides. The gyro >was capable of precessing rapidly in its own bearings - and this had not >much to do with the gimbals. Now, here is the thing. You could sit in a >chair and torque on the gyro and make yourself spin around in the chair. >It had lots of angular momentum. However, with just the right touch, you >could start the thing precessing in its own bearings (I think) and it would >suddenly flip over 180 deg. in the gimbal with amazing speed. This flip >did not conserve angular momenum. I saw it and felt it myself and was well >aware at the time it was a mysterious effect. I now wonder if precession >can indeed reduce angular momentum, or if somehow the inertia of the gyro >was de-linked from the vacuum, or even momentarily reversed. There is also >the mystery as to why the flip, which happened without any hope of control >from the initiator (me), stopped at exactly 180 degrees. On occasion I >have been talked out of believing it actually happened, but I know darn >well it did! > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:07:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA07402; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:06:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:06:02 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701160556.49824.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:05:56 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"nWa581.0.8p1.e5R0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51012 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: umm, no offense meant, specially since im new around here, but... uhhh.... DUH!!!!!! magnetic fields do actually have a particle though. the electron. also, the elctrons in a magnetic field can interact with the electrons and protons of other atoms. a magnetic field is simply a moving electronic field. i assumed this was common knowledge. you know, similar to the fact that there is no centripetal force, its actually caused by the change in vectors due to circular motion. and how there is no such thing as decelleration. they are all just differences on a principle, but its a mental help to seperate them. --- John Berry wrote: > > > Please keep an open mind, here I am attempting to > argue to magnetic fields > though useful constructs of fiction, they are not > really a separate > phenomena to electric fields. > Merely logical distortions of electric fields. > > No particle posses a magnetic field. > > No particle can detect a magnetic field. > > Magnetic fields are created by moving charges, I'm > going to ignore the > subject of spin and permanent magnetism as too > complex to be tacked for now. > > Magnetic fields are created by moving a charge, and > felt by moving a charge > through the field, it then feels an electric > field/force 90 degrees to the > magnetic field. > (so in other words when charges are moved relative > to other charges in > certain ways they experience a force that pushes > positive charges and > negative charges equally but in opposite directions) > > First it is to be understood (this seems to be > conventionally accepted) that > both magnetic and electric fields don't interact, > bend compress (except in > out drawings), but merely sum. (In the past on this > list other have noted > that fact about magnetic fields, and at MIT's > website I watched a video > where a professor taught that electric fields did > the same) > > Another thing to realize is that a certain area of > space may appear to have > a magnetic field to one observer, and have none or a > magnetic field of a > different direction or strength to an observer in a > different inertial > frame. (as is the case if you are standing by a > large charged ball, to you > it creates no magnetic field, but if you move you > suddenly witness a > magnetic fields appear, as you accelerate it gets > stronger, as you change > your direction it changes it's direction) > > > I have two proposals (applicable under different > conditions) explaining how > when a charge is moving it's electric field might be > distorted to create an > electric field that we have been calling magnetic. > > First imagine a long wire such as a radio > transmitting antenna, imagine a > lone electron (from the wire) in space moving up and > down. > The electric field of the electron (which expands > out into the infinity of > space at the speed of light) is continually bent and > distorted by the > acceleration, just like if you wiggle a hose side to > side the water rather > than forming a straight stream, it will take on a > wave shape. > > The electric field in the axis of travel will simply > be compressed and > stretched (made stronger and weaker, similar to the > way a speaker makes > sound) but perpendicular the lines once straight > will now be bent, this > should also effect the force direction. > > So if we now go back to our radio transmitting > antenna, we know the > electrons electric field still exists outside of the > wire even though we > don't detect it because of the protons electric > field. > > The electrons field is now bent, the proton cancels > the component of the > electrons field that is 90 degrees to the wire, > leaving just the component > that is parallel to the wire. > > This would create an electric field that is > consistent with the electric > field felt by a receiving antenna, or any example > where AC (or other time > changing current) passes through a wire and induces > a voltage in a parallel > wire. > > Lets say that rather than having a time varying > current, we have steady DC > passing through a wire, this wire is approached by > another parallel wire. > > Relativity demands that when something is moving it > is distorted and > contracts in the axis of motion. > > So the electric field, if we view it as a sphere is > when moving a squashed > flattened sphere. > > This would increase the strength of the field as > it's density is greater (it > has been compressed) so it is logical (and in my > mind inescapable if you buy > relativistic contraction of space) that the negative > electric field radially > out from the wire would be increased, this is inline > with Hoopers findings. > > So going back to our two parallel wires approaching > one another (one with a > steady DC current) we see that the electrons > electric field is distorted by > the relativistic motion, this would at first appear > to do nothing to induce > a voltage along the wire, but we have missed a > component. > > The squashed sphere which we use to envision > distortions in the electrons > field has an equator, now consider the plane of this > equator like the rings > of Saturn. > > As the wires are approaching each other, the plane > of the equator is rotated > as the electrons are now moving not just past the > wire, but towards it as > well. (on an angle) > > This yet again produces a component of the electric > field that is in the > right direction to induce a voltage, that we see > induced in motors and > generators. > > If this is indeed enough to account can be tested, > all that is needed is to > do the math (which I can't) to see if the space > contraction is enough to > account for the voltage induced in the approaching > wire. > (and in the other example if the bend is steep > enough to account) > > If anyone is interested but can't fully get a grip > of what I'm saying, I > could produce some images to clarify, and post it to > a website. > > Now lets cover the aspect of force. > > Lets take two parallel wires with currents in the > same direction causing > attraction. > > If you put yourself moving along as an electron in > one of the wires, you see > the protons in the other wire zipping past (ok, > current is quite slow, but > if I had the drift too slow it would be boring), > because the electrons (or > at least some of them) in the other wire are moving > along with you, so you > see proton as moving. > > Now we have established that moving protons electric > field would be > compressed, hence the component where the flux lines > are perpendicular to > their motion would be strengthened, so the electrons > in one wire would be > attracted to the protons compressed and strengthened > field. > The electrons in the other wire would feel the same > increased attraction to > the protons. > > Meanwhile the protons in the wire would feel the > electrons in the opposite > wire had become more attractive because from it's > view the electrons in the > opposite wire are moving and they have become more > attractive because of > their distorted field. > === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:09:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA08455; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:08:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:08:11 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701160808.50037.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:08:08 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20030701164710.006a4af4@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"69F5r2.0.142.g7R0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51013 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: interesting, but could we test that on earth? since any linear motion on an orbiting, spinning, precessing body is actually rotational motion in some way?? alex --- Grimer wrote: > While we are discussing gyros......... > > Imagine a black box with three fixed orthogonal > silent > running gyros. > > Ask someone to estimate its mass by rotating it. > > Their estimate could well exceed the mass of any > material known, even if they assumed that the mass > was all > concentrated in a surface layer. > > But materials are stuffed full of various rotating > thingees > at various different scales. > > Now suppose that these milli, micro, pico, nano > gyros were > arranged by nature so that instead of increasing the > > rotational inertia in the manner of our fixed gyros, > they > actually reduced it. In effect they are cunning > servomechanical > devices which amplify any rotational moment we apply > to the > black box. > > In this case our fixed gyros will be seen as > counteracting > the servo mechanical action of the natural gyros > thereby revealing > the true rotational inertia of the box, plus all its > contents. > > Let us now suppose that not only do these natural > internal gyros > reduce the boxes rotational inertia, but they also, > in some way > we have yet to understand, reduce the boxes "linear" > inertia as > well. > > It will mean that when we use a force to accelerate > a body we > only supply a control force. Most of the force > needed comes > from the rearrangement of the internal gyros. The > outward > manifestation of this internal rearrangement is the > strain of > the body during acceleration and the remnant > hysteresis strain > resulting from the change in velocity through the EM > aether. > > The servo-mechanical effectiveness of the internal > gyros will > decrease as they rotate around from their initial > positions > and so the applied force required will increase, > i.e. the > apparent mass will increase. > > I wonder if a box containing running fixed gyros > would increase > the linear inertia of the box relative to the same > box with > stationary fixed gyros. > > Frank > > > > At 02:24 am 01-07-03 -0800, you wrote: > >At 8:50 PM 6/30/3, Colin Quinney wrote: > >>http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html > >> > >>http://depalma.pair.com/GenerationOfUnidirectionalForce.html > >> > >>http://depalma.pair.com/Absurdity/Absurdity05/SecretOfForceMachine.html > > > > > >These are very interesting pages. It would take > some time to understand > >everthing. I had heard of Bruce de Palma, but was > not familiar with his > >work. I had heard it was fully discredited, but > that doesn't necessarily > >mean much! Ill say one thing, if the equation for > "od" as a function of > >angular and precessionla velocity is correct the > effect should be > >unmistakable and easily produced. BTW, the > isomorpism I suggested earlier > >does not indicate that anything of the sort is > expected. > > > >The comments I have in regard to Nicholas Reiter's > chirality experiments > >were based strictly on the field isomorphism that I > proposed here earlier. > >One thing that is made clear from browsing the de > Palma site is that use > >of a pendulum for measuring M_i/M_g is not a valid > approach if the mass to > >be measured has any net angular momentum, and its > angle, with respect to > >vertical, changes with the pendulum oscillation. A > mechanism is necessary > >to keep the sample in vertical alignment as the > pendulum swings. > > > >The experiment shooting the balls, one spinning, > one not, into the air was > >a most interesting experiment, or would have been > provided it had been done > >in a vacuum. It also makes one wonder about the > effect of a spinning > >hemisphere on the front of a vehicle on the > vehicle's aerodynamic drag! > >This is especially true if the energy for the > rotation comes from the > >aerodynmic drag itself. The ability to reduce drag > by use of a rotating > >front surface could have lots of applications, both > in air and water. And > >if it works on the front, why not the back as well? > The one on the front > >might be veined so as to reduce air or water > pressure there, though that > >should happen with no veins at all, and the one on > the back veined so as to > >increase air or water pressure there. A ship hull > comprised of two > >submerged pontoons, each with counter rotating > hemi-spherical shells comes > >to mind. A similar aircraft design might work too. > I wonder if it would > >work? > > > >As for gyros, I have a very different take on > prospective research based > >upon personal experience. In the 1960's I had the > opportunity to get my > >hands on a surplus gyrroscope that was DC driven > and mounted in gimbals > >with brushes. It was about 10 inches in diameter > if memory serves. The > >bearings were lose I think, and the gyro much used, > but it was fully > >enclosed in an aluminum casing, so you could not > see the insides. The gyro > >was capable of precessing rapidly in its own > bearings - and this had not > >much to do with the gimbals. Now, here is the > thing. You could sit in a > >chair and torque on the gyro and make yourself spin > around in the chair. > >It had lots of angular momentum. However, with > just the right touch, you > >could start the thing precessing in its own > bearings (I think) and it would > >suddenly flip over 180 deg. in the gimbal with > amazing speed. This flip > >did not conserve angular momenum. I saw it and > felt it myself and was well > >aware at the time it was a mysterious effect. I > now wonder if precession > >can indeed reduce angular momentum, or if somehow > the inertia of the gyro > >was de-linked from the vacuum, or even momentarily > reversed. There is also > >the mystery as to why the flip, which happened > without any hope of control > >from the initiator (me), stopped at exactly 180 > degrees. On occasion I > >have been talked out of believing it actually > happened, but I know darn > >well it did! > > > >Regards, > > > >Horace Heffner > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:26:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA21925; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:25:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:25:31 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030701172445.006c50ac@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:24:45 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"6bwdp3.0.QM5.wNR0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51014 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:08 am 01-07-03 -0700, you wrote: >interesting, but could we test that on earth? since >any linear motion on an orbiting, spinning, precessing >body is actually rotational motion in some way?? >alex Good point :-) In the limit there is no such thing as a linear motion. However, some motions are more linear than others. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:35:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA29619; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:34:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:34:07 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701163404.7633.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:34:04 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20030701172445.006c50ac@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"O-DlG2.0.bE7._VR0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51015 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: must....resist.... dirt puns...... alex lol --- Grimer wrote: > At 09:08 am 01-07-03 -0700, you wrote: > >interesting, but could we test that on earth? > since > >any linear motion on an orbiting, spinning, > precessing > >body is actually rotational motion in some way?? > >alex > > Good point :-) > > In the limit there is no such thing as a linear > motion. > However, some motions are more linear than others. > ;-) > > Frank > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:42:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA04395; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:41:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:41:51 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030701174053.006a4efc@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:40:53 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"9XfTl1.0.341.CdR0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51016 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm sure you can do better than that. What about pokemon puns 88 At 09:34 am 01-07-03 -0700, you wrote: >must....resist.... dirt puns...... >alex >lol From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:46:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA08581; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:45:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:45:22 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.222] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:44:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2003 16:44:14.0763 (UTC) FILETIME=[01932FB0:01C33FF0] Resent-Message-ID: <"u9mPc3.0.442.PgR0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51017 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: alexander hollins >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist >Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:05:56 -0700 (PDT) > >umm, no offense meant, specially since im new around >here, but... uhhh.... > >DUH!!!!!! > >magnetic fields do actually have a particle though. >the electron. An electron just sitting there doesn't create a magnetic field. (like a tiny bar magnet) Only by relative motion is it seen to posses a magnetic field, and only by those it's moving relative to. Indeed different particles would disagree as to the strength direction and existence of the magnetic field. (I did point out that I'm ignoring spin as it is too complex) Furthermore the charges don't move along the lines of magnetic force, but at 90 degrees to it, the positive charges pushed in one direction and the negative charges in the other just like an electric field. > also, the electrons in a magnetic field >can interact with the electrons and protons of other >atoms. a magnetic field is simply a moving >electronic field. Are you saying that a magnetic field is simply a moving electric field? I agree, but it is normally not accepted as a distortion of an electric field but as a field in it's own right. Sure we say Electromagnetism, but people usually mean the charge creates a magnetic field and visa versa, rather than saying the magnetic field doesn't strictly speaking exist. (The M in EM isn't normally considered to be imaginary AFAIK) >i assumed this was common knowledge. > you know, similar to the fact that there is no >centripetal force, its actually caused by the change >in vectors due to circular motion. and how there is >no such thing as decelleration. they are all just >differences on a principle, but its a mental help to >seperate them. I agree, so was this already understood? How the forces we label magnetism are just distortions of the electric field? (and exactly how those forces and distortions are created) If so no one told me. >--- John Berry wrote: _________________________________________________________________ Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN Personals! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:53:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA15706; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:52:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:52:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701165245.84808.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:52:45 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"OnYPh1.0.Dr3.WnR0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51018 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: right, is a moving electron, and i was under the understanding that there WERE electrons moving along the magnetic lines of force. am i wrong there? when you run electrons down a wire, some of them run a different path from start to end, along the magnetic lines of force. is that not the case? of course, in that case, the single electron down teh wire should create an em field. hmmmm. i wonder. and it may be its not a generally understood thing, but thats how i always understood it. (course, i misread an electronics textbook when i was 7, and for 5 years thought that fuses were made out of chain links that were rejected at teh factory for being too weak. lol) wow, now you got me thinking. anyone else wanna weigh in? --- John Berry wrote: > >From: alexander hollins > > An electron just sitting there doesn't create a > magnetic field. (like a tiny > bar magnet) > Only by relative motion is it seen to posses a > magnetic field, and only by > those it's moving relative to. > Indeed different particles would disagree as to the > strength direction and > existence of the magnetic field. > (I did point out that I'm ignoring spin as it is too > complex) > > Furthermore the charges don't move along the lines > of magnetic force, but at > 90 degrees to it, the positive charges pushed in one > direction and the > negative charges in the other just like an electric > field. > > Are you saying that a magnetic field is simply a > moving electric field? > I agree, but it is normally not accepted as a > distortion of an electric > field but as a field in it's own right. > Sure we say Electromagnetism, but people usually > mean the charge creates a > magnetic field and visa versa, rather than saying > the magnetic field doesn't > strictly speaking exist. > (The M in EM isn't normally considered to be > imaginary AFAIK) > > I agree, so was this already understood? > How the forces we label magnetism are just > distortions of the electric > field? (and exactly how those forces and distortions > are created) > If so no one told me. > > > >--- John Berry wrote: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:54:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA16072; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:53:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:53:22 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701164637.26156.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:46:37 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20030701174053.006a4efc@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"u7Ptt1.0._w3.1oR0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51019 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i meant dirt puns, not dirt puns. dont forget, the shortest distance between two puns is a straitline. pokemon puns... no. pokemon are good for one thing and one thing only. thermodynamics experiments. alex --- Grimer wrote: > I'm sure you can do better than that. > What about pokemon puns > > 88 > > > At 09:34 am 01-07-03 -0700, you wrote: > >must....resist.... dirt puns...... > >alex > >lol > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 09:58:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA19331; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:57:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:57:48 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01c33ff2$07096e80$6501a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20030701160556.49824.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:58:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"iD_Hu3.0.oj4.BsR0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51020 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's a question to put the theoreticians on the spot. When I pulse this coil what will I see across the ground wire when I put a scope on it? (2 cond romex is hard to get. I will have a ground wire between the white and the black) Jeff From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 10:02:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA21846; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:01:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:01:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3F01BE9D.2070804@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:02:21 -0400 From: Steve Lawrence User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist References: <20030701160556.49824.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030701160556.49824.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"t0NNj2.0.8L5.wvR0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51021 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: alexander hollins wrote: > umm, no offense meant, specially since im new around > here, but... uhhh.... > > DUH!!!!!! > This really is pretty offensive. Please try to keep aspersions on the knowledge or intelligence of other list participants out of the discussion. I don't know about anyone else here, but it certainly never occurred to ME, all by my lonesome, that the magnetic field could be derived from the electric vield via special relativity alone -- somebody had to tell me. In fact, when my physics instructor did the derivation one day in class I was pretty well amazed. John Berry seems to have derived this entirely on his own. Pretty sharp, actually -- certainly not worthy of a "duh"! Anyway, as Alexander Hollins implied, any standard text on special relativity which gets into E&M at all should also include the deriviation of the magnetic field from the electric field - in a sense, it's true; the mag field doesn't exist. I've been told -- tho I've never seen a derivation -- that you can also assume the magnetic field and derive an electric field from it. They're just two sides of the same coin. In fact, my understanding is that special relativity was developed in large part to explain the magnetic field and E&M effects in general. Maxwell's equations, with their total lack of reference to a stationary "ether", are seriously confusing in the absence of any relativity theory. John Berry said: > Please keep an open mind, here I am attempting to >> argue to magnetic fields >> though useful constructs of fiction, they are not >> really a separate >> phenomena to electric fields. >> Merely logical distortions of electric fields. >> >> Exactly right -- or so I learned in school; if there's really an ether out there after all, though, maybe all bets are off... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 10:35:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA05497; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:34:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:34:10 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.222] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:33:33 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2003 17:33:33.0174 (UTC) FILETIME=[E4ECE160:01C33FF6] Resent-Message-ID: <"v7sQp3.0.dL1.HOS0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51023 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Steve Lawrence >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist >Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:02:21 -0400 > > > >any standard text on special relativity which gets into E&M at all should >also include the deriviation of the magnetic field from the electric field Does it explain the mechanism or just simply state it is a relativistic effect? I was aware it was considered relativistic, but I am not aware this it was understood exactly what happens. (squashed and bent electric fields aren't neatly canceled by normal ones) >- in a sense, it's true; the mag field doesn't exist. I've been told -- >tho I've never seen a derivation -- that you can also assume the magnetic >field and derive an electric field from it. While it is true that moving through a magnetic field creates an electric force/field. It doesn't seem to me it is equivalent because two stationary charges feel each others electric fields, Relativity does not apply here as there is no motion. And where motion relative to a magnetic field can create an electric force/field (indeed it is the only way magnetic fields are detected at all) I would argue that all you are doing is unmasking an electric field. So while I get your point, I'm not sure the argument that only magnetic fields exist (and electric fields just an illusion/distortion) could be made. I also want to make it clear, I'm not saying that moving charges create magnetic fields (as that is obvious), but that moving charges create electric fields that aren't neatly canceled by an opposite charge (as the shape of it's field has changed) thus effecting things in unexpected ways, and that we have mislabeled that a magnetic field. > They're just two sides of the same coin. > >In fact, my understanding is that special relativity was developed in large >part to explain the magnetic field and E&M effects in general. Maxwell's >equations, with their total lack of reference to a stationary "ether", are >seriously confusing in the absence of any relativity theory. > >John Berry said: >>Please keep an open mind, here I am attempting to >>>argue to magnetic fields though useful constructs of fiction, they are >>>not >>>really a separate phenomena to electric fields. >>>Merely logical distortions of electric fields. >>> >>> > >Exactly right -- or so I learned in school; if there's really an ether out >there after all, though, maybe all bets are off... As you might deduce from my email address, I consider that a possibility. Which is really messing with my head as I am using something (contraction of space) that I don't really believe in. But as it is accepted by others as fact, I can still use it in this argument. _________________________________________________________________ Gaming galore at http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming ! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 11:16:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA28873; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:15:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:15:41 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701171537.30393.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:15:37 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F01BE9D.2070804@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"_tAUd.0.z27.z6S0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51022 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: sorry, but i was under the impression that it was pretty common knowledge. i guess im wrong. the duh wasnt intended as an aspersion, but more as a way of saying that no, he wasnt wrong, and there was no need to apologize for taking the argumentative postion. which appears to be exactly how the individual it was aimed at took it... care to share some components of teh derivation? i just came by this logically, i havent seen any of the math involved. and if there is an ether, i dont think its em active. but who knows what else it might carry. alex --- Steve Lawrence wrote: > > > alexander hollins wrote: > > umm, no offense meant, specially since im new > around > > here, but... uhhh.... > > > > DUH!!!!!! > > > > This really is pretty offensive. Please try to keep > aspersions on the knowledge or > intelligence of other list participants out of the > discussion. > > I don't know about anyone else here, but it > certainly never occurred to ME, all by my > lonesome, that the magnetic field could be derived > from the electric vield via > special relativity alone -- somebody had to tell me. > In fact, when my physics > instructor did the derivation one day in class I was > pretty well amazed. John Berry > seems to have derived this entirely on his own. > Pretty sharp, actually -- certainly > not worthy of a "duh"! > > Anyway, as Alexander Hollins implied, any standard > text on special relativity which > gets into E&M at all should also include the > deriviation of the magnetic field from > the electric field - in a sense, it's true; the mag > field doesn't exist. I've been > told -- tho I've never seen a derivation -- that you > can also assume the magnetic > field and derive an electric field from it. They're > just two sides of the same coin. > > In fact, my understanding is that special relativity > was developed in large part to > explain the magnetic field and E&M effects in > general. Maxwell's equations, with > their total lack of reference to a stationary > "ether", are seriously confusing in the > absence of any relativity theory. > > John Berry said: > > Please keep an open mind, here I am attempting to > >> argue to magnetic fields > >> though useful constructs of fiction, they are not > >> really a separate > >> phenomena to electric fields. > >> Merely logical distortions of electric fields. > >> > >> > > Exactly right -- or so I learned in school; if > there's really an ether out there > after all, though, maybe all bets are off... > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 11:17:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA30779; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:16:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:16:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3F01D011.3070209@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:16:49 -0400 From: Steve Lawrence User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"N54W73.0.kW7.b_S0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51024 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >> From: Steve Lawrence >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist >> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:02:21 -0400 >> >> >> >> any standard text on special relativity which gets into E&M at all >> should also include the deriviation of the magnetic field from the >> electric field > > > Does it explain the mechanism or just simply state it is a relativistic > effect? > I was aware it was considered relativistic, but I am not aware this it > was understood exactly what happens. (squashed and bent electric fields > aren't neatly canceled by normal ones) Well, lessee ... Edward M. Purcell, Electricity and Magnetism (Berkeley Physics Course volume 2) Copyright 1965 Chapter 5, pp 148-178 is "The Fields of Moving Charges" It's been 25 years since I read this text but I think, by the time he's done with the chapter, he's got the magnetic field in all its glory. I just glanced through Bohm's old "The Special Theory of Relativity" and it doesn't seem to cover it -- too bad. It's also worth noting that Maxwell's equations describe the curl of the B field as nothing more than dE/dt + the current density. And, AFAIK, the B field is fully described by its curl (its divergence is always zero ... at least until we discover a magnetic monopole). I understand that in more advanced E&M texts the "electromagnetic" field is described with a single object: the electromagnetic force tensor. There's no distinction made between E and B at all at that point. However, that's beyond anything I ever got to, so I can't do more than parrot the term. > >> - in a sense, it's true; the mag field doesn't exist. I've been told >> -- tho I've never seen a derivation -- that you can also assume the >> magnetic field and derive an electric field from it. > > > > While it is true that moving through a magnetic field creates an > electric force/field. > It doesn't seem to me it is equivalent because two stationary charges > feel each others electric fields, Relativity does not apply here as > there is no motion. And there's no magnetic field, either, in that case -- of course. And stationary magnets actually contain natural current loops (I'm told) -- again, without motion, there's no magnetic field. > > And where motion relative to a magnetic field can create an electric > force/field (indeed it is the only way magnetic fields are detected at > all) I would argue that all you are doing is unmasking an electric field. > > So while I get your point, I'm not sure the argument that only magnetic > fields exist (and electric fields just an illusion/distortion) could be > made. Nor am I, really -- it's something I've been told, but I haven't seen the derivation driven that way and it's not obvious to me how to do it. As you point out, when the charged particles all stop there's no magnetic field left to derive the E field from. > I also want to make it clear, I'm not saying that moving charges create > magnetic fields (as that is obvious), but that moving charges create > electric fields that aren't neatly canceled by an opposite charge (as > the shape of it's field has changed) thus effecting things in unexpected > ways, and that we have mislabeled that a magnetic field. Yes, exactly -- since the electric field around a moving charge isn't radially symmetric, you get a weird force at 90 degrees to the direction of motion. But it's a major convenience to label it the "magnetic field" and measure it separately -- it sure beats evaluating a surface integral every time you want to figure out what the force on a piece of wire in a magnetic field is likely to be... >>> Please keep an open mind, here I am attempting to >>> >>>> argue to magnetic fields though useful constructs of fiction, they >>>> are not >>>> really a separate phenomena to electric fields. >>>> Merely logical distortions of electric fields. >>>> >>>> >> >> Exactly right -- or so I learned in school; if there's really an ether >> out there after all, though, maybe all bets are off... > > > As you might deduce from my email address, I consider that a possibility. > Which is really messing with my head as I am using something > (contraction of space) that I don't really believe in. > > But as it is accepted by others as fact, I can still use it in this > argument. Oh, special relativity is real enough -- it's been verified many, many times over, just as has Newtonian mechanics. However, that doesn't mean there isn't something left out of special relativity -- just as there is from Newtonian mechanics! If there really was a positive "ether drag" result from later Michelson-Morley experiments, then there almost certainly is a piece missing from special relativity. But again, that doesn't mean it's not correct in the domains in which it's normally applied. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 12:33:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17147; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:19 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:37:00 -0800 To: , From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"ArZ4U2.0.nB4.27U0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51026 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:03 PM 7/1/3, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Horace, > >I came across Depalmas work with gyros while >researching Kozyrev. Like you, I don't find >the spinning ball experiments very convincing, >and I suspect something like the magnus effect >is the cause of the variation in fall time. > >It's worth noting that Kozyrev never claimed >to see a mass variation with perfect gyros. >In his paper on "The mechanics of time" he >mentions spinning up a gyro CW and CCW with >no noticable effect. He only notes variation >with gyros that are oscillating, he gives >the example of a gyro with poor bearings which >would go into vibration and produce a >mass variation. Later he designs devices to >improve on the effect, but it's interesting >to me that you would notice similar strange >anomalies with your "rattling" gyro. There are some interesting patterns of similarities running through all these things that simply tweeks the imagination. > >Of course, accurately weighing a jitterbugging >gyro is a unique sort of challenge... Well, the physical law violation in the case I observed was conservation of angular mometum (COAM). There was not necessarily any inirtial mass change, but such an inirtial mass change might help explain how COAM could be violated - so that is a possible connection. I think the violation of COAM, if it could be shown reliably and repeatably, would be a significant finding. The "repeatably" part was tricky. The gyro had to be tapped just right to make it flip. Also, the gravity-EM field isomorphism I created would indicate that gravitational mass is unchangeable, except in cases where velocities near c are involved. Only inertia can be changed significantly via some kind of as yet unexplained and unknown form of interaction with the vacuum. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 12:33:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17237; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:25 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:36:56 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"6yKb23.0.4D4.77U0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51027 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:33 AM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: >i havent checked those links myself, but i will, >sounds interesting. > >as to the rotating hemisphere craft... nothing new >there. i cant remember if it was an issue of >destinies or another sf mag, but there was one way >back when when , i think poul anderson, might have >been another author, described such a vessel. Was it the entire craft that rotated, or merely a shell on the front surface? > >as to the gyroscope, did the precession appear >harmonic? No. One little nudge that was just right and the thing flipped right over. The external cover did not show any signs of precession. It just flipped. Thee was a grinding sound inside though, and a vibration, so I assumed that was the gyro precessing within its bearings. >solowly increasing in angle as it spun? it >might be that it was coming around and was about to >hit 90 degrees , which would then have caused a >downward force on it as it passed 90, which would have >slammed it to 180. angular momentum IS conserved in >such a case. No it isn't. There was no angular momentum imparted to me, the holder. >try it with ye old spinning bicycle >wheel, once you twist said wheel to 180, you dont feel >anymore forces agains motion (although your arms get a >little twisted, lol.) I've done that. Yes, once the tire axis is vertical it can no longer impart any more angular momentum to the holder ... who sits on a rotating bar stool still rotating. Reversig the axis 180 degrees imparts the full angular momentum of the wheel to the holder, and that's all it can do. It the case with the instantly flipping gryro, no appreciable angular momentum was applied to me. That high speed gyro carried much more angular momentum than a spinning bicycle tire. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 12:34:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17431; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:34 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:37:12 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"SgC7M.0.7G4.H7U0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51029 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:47 AM 7/1/3, Grimer wrote: >While we are discussing gyros......... > >Imagine a black box with three fixed orthogonal silent >running gyros. Any number of gyros in a box will act just like one gyro that has the angular momentum which is the (vector) sum of the angular momentums of all the gyros in the box. > >Ask someone to estimate its mass by rotating it. By rotating on each of three orthogonal axes the observer will quickly determine that there is a gyro in the box. Outside the scope of your statement above are the facts that the inertial mas of the box can quickly be determined by shaking the box. The gravitational mass of the box can be determined by weighing the box. There is no reason (in standard physics) to expect that these are affected by the angular momenta of gyros within. > >Their estimate could well exceed the mass of any >material known, even if they assumed that the mass was all >concentrated in a surface layer. Not true. When rotating the box either NO resistance wil be detected (but the bearings might be moaning!) or otherwise a right angle precessional force will be felt. In no axis of rotation will the inirtial moment appear to be simply increased. > >But materials are stuffed full of various rotating thingees >at various different scales. > >Now suppose that these milli, micro, pico, nano gyros were >arranged by nature so that instead of increasing the >rotational inertia in the manner of our fixed gyros, they >actually reduced it. What is the mechanism that makes this possible? This is like saying: "suppose we throw a bunch of bolts in a box and it gets lighter." It just makes no sense to me. Can you clear this up? >In effect they are cunning servomechanical >devices which amplify any rotational moment we apply to the >black box. Such a mass would have a negative angular moment of inertia. Unless I have missed something it appears you have not suggested any rational source for this kind of physical quantity. What I have suggested is that the only mechanism that can reduce inertial mass, and thus it is also implied angular moments of inertia, at normal velocities and accelerations, is electromagnetic in nature. Under the gravity-EM field isomophism discussed earlier, the equation of inertia F = m*a yields an imaginary number, thus inertia should not exist as a real force. The equation is fundamentally wrong, and must be replaced by an equation that is electromagnetic in nature. The electromagnetics of the gyros is thus their important aspect, not solely their angular momentum. If there is a plausible theory that quantitatively relates angular momentum to changes in inertial mass I would like to see it. The de Palma pages *do* present a formula which is most interesting, but without derivation and without confirmation via replication. I think it must be true that the mysteries of inertia lie in the nature of the electromagnetic fields of the constiuents of matter. However, this too is only a point in a hopeful direction, and not a resolution of the problem. However, this idea that inertia is a result of the EM nature of matter has been put forth by a number of authors, though for other reasons. One such author is Hal Puthoff, who was once a memeber of this list, who showed inertia to result from an (EM) interaction of matter with the zero point field. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 12:34:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17338; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:30 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:37:04 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Magnetic fields don't exist Resent-Message-ID: <"ViT-v1.0.aE4.D7U0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51028 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:44 AM 7/1/3, John Berry wrote: >Please keep an open mind, here I am attempting to argue to magnetic fields >though useful constructs of fiction, they are not really a separate >phenomena to electric fields. >Merely logical distortions of electric fields. > >No particle posses a magnetic field. > >No particle can detect a magnetic field. > >Magnetic fields are created by moving charges, I'm going to ignore the >subject of spin and permanent magnetism as too complex to be tacked for now. Except for the above, the rest of the qualitative discriptions you give are very nicely quantified and formulated in Jefimenko's *Causality, Electromagnetic Induction and Gravity* text, based on the fact that interactions are delayed due to the finite speed of changes in the electric field. In addition, the magnetic field as a result of relativisitic transformations on charge motion, i.e. due to the example of the relativistic compression of line charge density rho of electrons moving (relative to the protons in the wire, and either of which is moving is also relative to the observer) in a long straight wire is formulated in various books on EM and relativity, including Feynman, Vol II, p. 13-6 ff. This essentially shows the magnetic field is a consequence of delayed action of the electric field, which is Jefimnko's position as well. The difference is mainly in the assumed velocity of gravitational action. I'd like to think that at least some form of EM where B is simply a computational artifact of delayed action, or some other manifestation of the electric field, is correct. It is exactly this principle that permitted Jefimenko to develop his formulas for gravity by assuming the existence of a gravity co-field K, and exactly that principle which justifies the formulation of the true isomorphism I proposed between EM and gravity. Once the isomorphism is established, every EM equation, including relativistic ones, have a precise gravitational counterpart in exactly the same form, but with differing constants and units. The implications and computational importance of this can barely be overstated. > >Magnetic fields are created by moving a charge, and felt by moving a charge >through the field, it then feels an electric field/force 90 degrees to the >magnetic field. >(so in other words when charges are moved relative to other charges in >certain ways they experience a force that pushes positive charges and >negative charges equally but in opposite directions) > >First it is to be understood (this seems to be conventionally accepted) that >both magnetic and electric fields don't interact, bend compress (except in >out drawings), but merely sum. (In the past on this list other have noted >that fact about magnetic fields, and at MIT's website I watched a video >where a professor taught that electric fields did the same) > >Another thing to realize is that a certain area of space may appear to have >a magnetic field to one observer, and have none or a magnetic field of a >different direction or strength to an observer in a different inertial >frame. (as is the case if you are standing by a large charged ball, to you >it creates no magnetic field, but if you move you suddenly witness a >magnetic fields appear, as you accelerate it gets stronger, as you change >your direction it changes it's direction) > > >I have two proposals (applicable under different conditions) explaining how >when a charge is moving it's electric field might be distorted to create an >electric field that we have been calling magnetic. > >First imagine a long wire such as a radio transmitting antenna, imagine a >lone electron (from the wire) in space moving up and down. >The electric field of the electron (which expands out into the infinity of >space at the speed of light) is continually bent and distorted by the >acceleration, just like if you wiggle a hose side to side the water rather >than forming a straight stream, it will take on a wave shape. > >The electric field in the axis of travel will simply be compressed and >stretched (made stronger and weaker, similar to the way a speaker makes >sound) but perpendicular the lines once straight will now be bent, this >should also effect the force direction. > >So if we now go back to our radio transmitting antenna, we know the >electrons electric field still exists outside of the wire even though we >don't detect it because of the protons electric field. > >The electrons field is now bent, the proton cancels the component of the >electrons field that is 90 degrees to the wire, leaving just the component >that is parallel to the wire. > >This would create an electric field that is consistent with the electric >field felt by a receiving antenna, or any example where AC (or other time >changing current) passes through a wire and induces a voltage in a parallel >wire. > >Lets say that rather than having a time varying current, we have steady DC >passing through a wire, this wire is approached by another parallel wire. > >Relativity demands that when something is moving it is distorted and >contracts in the axis of motion. > >So the electric field, if we view it as a sphere is when moving a squashed >flattened sphere. > >This would increase the strength of the field as it's density is greater (it >has been compressed) so it is logical (and in my mind inescapable if you buy >relativistic contraction of space) that the negative electric field radially >out from the wire would be increased, this is inline with Hoopers findings. > >So going back to our two parallel wires approaching one another (one with a >steady DC current) we see that the electrons electric field is distorted by >the relativistic motion, this would at first appear to do nothing to induce >a voltage along the wire, but we have missed a component. > >The squashed sphere which we use to envision distortions in the electrons >field has an equator, now consider the plane of this equator like the rings >of Saturn. > >As the wires are approaching each other, the plane of the equator is rotated >as the electrons are now moving not just past the wire, but towards it as >well. (on an angle) > >This yet again produces a component of the electric field that is in the >right direction to induce a voltage, that we see induced in motors and >generators. > >If this is indeed enough to account can be tested, all that is needed is to >do the math (which I can't) to see if the space contraction is enough to >account for the voltage induced in the approaching wire. >(and in the other example if the bend is steep enough to account) > >If anyone is interested but can't fully get a grip of what I'm saying, I >could produce some images to clarify, and post it to a website. > >Now lets cover the aspect of force. > >Lets take two parallel wires with currents in the same direction causing >attraction. > >If you put yourself moving along as an electron in one of the wires, you see >the protons in the other wire zipping past (ok, current is quite slow, but >if I had the drift too slow it would be boring), because the electrons (or >at least some of them) in the other wire are moving along with you, so you >see proton as moving. > >Now we have established that moving protons electric field would be >compressed, hence the component where the flux lines are perpendicular to >their motion would be strengthened, so the electrons in one wire would be >attracted to the protons compressed and strengthened field. >The electrons in the other wire would feel the same increased attraction to >the protons. > >Meanwhile the protons in the wire would feel the electrons in the opposite >wire had become more attractive because from it's view the electrons in the >opposite wire are moving and they have become more attractive because of >their distorted field. > >This works for repulsion also, then the electrons in one wire see the >protons field distorted, but the electrons moving at double the speed more >so, hence the electrons see the electric field of the other wires electrons >increased. >(Thinking on this, it would only make sense if the force was quadrupled with >double the speed, which I assume would be the case) > >Please keep an open mind, I realize it's a bit of a thought getting rid of >magnetic fields for distortions in electric fields, but please don't dismiss >this. > > >If you don't think this is right, please do think about how (assuming you >agree with relativity) the electric field of from the electrons moving in a >wire must be distorted and act in a manner like I say, and calculate the >force. (and show your calculations so other can study it for errors) >Because while I might be wrong about it being the real cause of what we call >a magnetic field, it seems relativistically it must still exist and have >some effect. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN >Personals! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 12:34:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17124; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:32:17 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:36:53 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: bifiler coil Resent-Message-ID: <"osNjp2.0.KB4.17U0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51025 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:30 AM 7/1/3, revtec wrote: >I have been off Vortex-l for over 2 yrs, but I am doing some more >experiments recently. I could use some thoughts from some magnetic >field experts (or anyone else with an opinion) on a variation of a bifilar >coil I am building. The coil would be wound with 12 ga 2 conductor romex >on a short wide flanged wooden spool. The height of the spool is equal to >the width of the romex 7/16 in. and the flange is 28 in. dia. The air >core is 12 in. dia. At the core end of the coil the black and white >conductor are joined. The other end is connected to a driving circuit. >The configuration should cause magnetic lines of force to converge on the >center of the coil approximating a "planer monopole" or "B field >singularity". Any comments? The field in the center of the coil will be zero. The B fields from each wire pair rapidly disappear with distance. Heading away from the coil they eventually "superposition" to make a net field with no intensity, no momentum, and no energy. In the center of the coil the contributions of all the wire segments adds to exactly zero. Such a coil will have a very low inductance. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 12:40:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA23748; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:39:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:39:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:43:43 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"UCp_S3.0.yo5.MDU0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51030 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:08 AM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: >interesting, but could we test that on earth? since >any linear motion on an orbiting, spinning, precessing >body is actually rotational motion in some way?? >alex There are those who might disagree, but experimental experience indicates to me that centrifugal force is a result of angular motion with respect to the fixed stars. This is fairly readily controlled. Other forms of motion involve forces of associated with linear acceleration, f = m*a, balanced by gravity. Since these forces are very small compared to the forces of interest for investigation, like those suggested by de Palma, there is no reason why they cannot be investigated here on earth. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 12:41:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA24257; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:39:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:39:56 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701193949.79113.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:39:49 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"k_VtT.0.ww5.BEU0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51031 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: it was a shell on the front of the craft. similar to the idea of the smoke ring blimp on B. Beaty's page. what if the grinding was something in the case spinning due to imparted momentum? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 16:02:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA31293; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:01:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:01:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:06:00 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"DZ4io3.0.oe7.3BX0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51032 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:39 PM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: >it was a shell on the front of the craft. similar to >the idea of the smoke ring blimp on B. Beaty's page. Which URL? Haven't seen that. > > >what if the grinding was something in the case >spinning due to imparted momentum? I assumed the grinding was due to a self-sustained precession. It just took a sideways tap of just the right amount on the top of the gyro, toward the main axis, to get it started. That seemed to start a precession that resulted in more lateral force, but from a different, angle, which then resulted in more force from yet a different angle, etc., and thus a rapid circling of the gyro in its bearings. I can't see how that translates into a quick flip for a gyro in gimbals, however. That is the mystery. The tap didn't work very often. I assume it was because the gyro had to be in just the right location within its bearings before it was possible to start the motion going with the tap. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 16:13:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA02807; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:07:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:07:27 -0700 Message-ID: <20030701230721.72247.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:07:21 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"yuL8Q3.0.hh.jGX0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51033 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://amasci.com/amateur/vortgen.html scroll down a little. im going to work on an rc version of teh multi donut to see if it works. hmm, odd. beats me. i'd love to look at teh sucker. any chance of getting some video of it? i'd host if need be, i have some webspace. --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 12:39 PM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: > >it was a shell on the front of the craft. similar > to > >the idea of the smoke ring blimp on B. Beaty's > page. > > Which URL? Haven't seen that. > > > > > > > >what if the grinding was something in the case > >spinning due to imparted momentum? > > > I assumed the grinding was due to a self-sustained > precession. It just > took a sideways tap of just the right amount on the > top of the gyro, toward > the main axis, to get it started. That seemed to > start a precession that > resulted in more lateral force, but from a > different, angle, which then > resulted in more force from yet a different angle, > etc., and thus a rapid > circling of the gyro in its bearings. I can't see > how that translates into > a quick flip for a gyro in gimbals, however. That > is the mystery. > > The tap didn't work very often. I assume it was > because the gyro had to be > in just the right location within its bearings > before it was possible to > start the motion going with the tap. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 17:21:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA17928; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:20:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:20:48 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.222] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Magnet charge attraction Re: Magnetic fields don't exist Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:20:16 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jul 2003 00:20:17.0027 (UTC) FILETIME=[B6C15530:01C3402F] Resent-Message-ID: <"6thH43.0.zN4.WLY0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51034 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have just had a thought, I not sure if I've had this thought before, but I'll share it now. At first I thought this might be only a product of my theory (that turned out to apparently already exist but I wasn't aware) But I realize it works if you accept magnetic fields of not. A coil (even one producing no "magnetic field" due to cancellation) should be attracted to a positively charged object. Lets say you have a dielectric hoop that is charged positively, we know if you rotate the hoop, or if you rotate around the hoop you will detect a magnetic field. Well this hoop and a hoop coil (bifilar if you like) should attract each other as the electrons moving in the wire see a magnetic field from the hoop, and the hoop sees the magnetic lines of force moving with the electrons in the wire (Hoopers motional E field, no pun not intended) so it should be attracted. This is similar to another idea which I had and found that Feynman listed in his book Q.E.D., where a coil is energized with a rotatable charged dielectric above, the idea is that the magnetic field causes the disk to spin due to induction, but Feynman didn't think the coil would feel the opposite force. (but it doesn't disobey Newton, and angular momentum is reserved when the field collapses) Anyway as it now seems that the theory I propose is accepted as it was only I not aware of it in the first place, I can think more about interesting conclusion of this model... _________________________________________________________________ Download MSN Messenger @ http://messenger.xtramsn.co.nz - add your friends! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 18:00:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA07101; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:00:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:00:10 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:04:53 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"61rdu1.0.sk1.QwY0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51035 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:07 PM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: >http://amasci.com/amateur/vortgen.html Thanks! >scroll down a little. im going to work on an rc >version of teh multi donut to see if it works. > > >hmm, odd. beats me. i'd love to look at teh sucker. >any chance of getting some video of it? i'd host if >need be, i have some webspace. You must have missed my two leading sentences about this: "As for gyros, I have a very different take on prospective research based upon personal experience. In the 1960's I had the opportunity to get my hands on a surplus gyrroscope that was DC driven and mounted in gimbals with brushes. " This occurred over 40 years ago. I think the gyro may have come out of a WWII bomber. Not sure. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 18:27:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA22465; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:26:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:26:20 -0700 Message-ID: <002b01c34038$9506c160$5e201f41@woh.rr.com> From: "Nicholas Reiter" To: References: Subject: vortex turbine Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:23:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"iqGpY2.0.wU5.yIZ0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51036 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gentlemen, Honored I am to see my name tacked onto a thread for such a marathon stretch. What better way to say thanks than by changing the topic. Here is an off the wall request. One of the projects I have been charged with over the next few months by Dr. McMaster is to put together a large (at least table top sized if not larger) device that would produce high volume air movement that would model and mimic his "space pump" version of a black hole. Specifically what I want to put together is a dual outlet air blower or turbine that would have a radial / equatorial draw or inlet, with the exhaust or outlets being axial. Harold wants me to build one and fire it up to try to help him model space flow into and out of his theoretical structure (in the scope of which a black hole and neutron/proton are identical) So the gist is - anybody have suggestions for a blower or turbine that could be built double ended for the desired output? Sounds pretty Schauberger to me... Fellows, I will register your replies, if any, for a couple of days here yet, but then I am going to be off list for a couple of weeks. Vacation time - going to Nova Scotia. Crypto-archaeology, sniffing out Knights Templar ruins, rock hounding, zeolite mining, and wots of wobster and cold Canadian brew. C'est si bon. If I find and dig up the Ark of the Covenant, I won't open it before dragging it back here to Ohio first. See, I had always speculated if the Ark was some ancient alien "stargate" type technology, I wanted to be the first human in three thousand years to lob a beer bottle into it when it activates. Things that just seem right. Headed to Estotiland, NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:04 PM Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter > At 4:07 PM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: > >http://amasci.com/amateur/vortgen.html > > > Thanks! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 18:40:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA29463; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:39:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:39:36 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:44:12 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: SR applied to circular currents Resent-Message-ID: <"W_FrJ1.0.HC7.OVZ0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51037 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've posted this on vortex in past years, but it seems relevant to some of the conversation of late, so I'll just post it again. Planar Circular Currents BACKGROUND AND ASSUMPTIONS It is well known that special relativity predicts changes in the observed field of a particle due to the flattening of the field in the direction of motion. This flattening is due to application of the Lorentz contraction due to relative motion. This relativistic effect of flattening the apparent field is called the "pancaking" of the Coulombic field. It is the intent here to discuss the effects of pancaking with respect to planar circular direct currents. On p.492 of *The Electromagnetic Field*, Albert Shadowitz provides the equation for relativistic (Coulombic) field pancaking as: E = Q/(4 Pi e0 r^2) (1 - (v^2/c^2))/(1 - (v^2/c^2) sin^2 theta)^(3/2) If we let b = v^2/c^2 then we can interpret apparent charge Q' to be: Q' = Q (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) which can be interpreted to mean apparent charge is reduced to observers in line with the charge velocity vector and increased as the viewing angle is increased. NOTE - it is not standard physics to interpret pancaking as a change in apparent charge (standard relativity assumes charge is invariant with velocity) but rather a change in observed field strength, but we should be able to interpret the pancaking equation for Q' either way. Consider the Bohr model of the atom where the electrons whiz around a nucleus. Specific electrons present some degree of pancaking from any angle viewed. In some directions apparent charge is increased and some directions decreased. In a non-magnetic medium, the polar orientation of atom orbitals is mixed in a uniform way due to the orientation of atoms being mixed in a uniform way. Upon integration over 3D polar coordinates, one finds that the average net charge change, according to the pancaking equation, for randomly oriented atoms and orbitals, is zero. However, the conditions examined here differ from those of an atom not in the presence of ambient electronmagnetic fields, as do the resulting forces. ANALYSIS OF THE RELATIVISTIC PANCAKING EFFECT If some set of orbitals are aligned, say by a magnetic field, or if we have the case of a planar circular current in a conductor, a neutral medium, then the average apparent charge (as viewed from a long enough distance to make the circle diameter insignificant) does not net out to zero, except at a specific viewing angle. As viewed within the plane, pancaking reduces the apparent charge of charges in motion, and increases the apparent charge of charges in circular motion as viewed from the poles of the circular motion. The net apparent charge of a charge moving in a small circle relative to the distance of the viewer comes from integrating to find the average value of: k(theta,v) = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) for theta = 0 to 2Pi, where b = v^2/c^2, and then subtracting the average value from one to obtain the net charge change factor K(v), because if v = 0 then the observed (apparent) charge Q' is the same as the charge Q: Q' = Q * 1 If the average value of k(theta,v) is non-zero, when integrated over all angles theta, for v not 0, then an average apparent net charge exists when v not 0. The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is given by: f_avg(x) = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ f(x) dx ] so the value of net charge change factor K(v) = 1 - [average over theta of k(theta,v)] is given by: K(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] which requires solving an elliptic integral of the second kind, and yields a net charge: Q_net = K(v) Q where K(v) can be approximately based on the average speed of the electrons. Note that in the 3D situation the averaging integral equivalent to the above would be [Integral from 0 to Pi] [k(theta) sin(theta) d theta] because it is necessary to average over theta with a weight of sin(theta) to account for the surface area involved. This integral evaluates to one, thus K(v) evaluates to zero. However, in the planar version, K(v) does not average to zero. NUMERICAL APPROXIMATION OF THE PANCAKING EFFECT The average values k_avg(v) of k(theta,v) for random planar orientations as viewed from the plane were directly calculated by computer program, thus producing the incremental force factor: K(v) = 1 - k_avg(v) over a complete circle, for theta = 0 to 2 Pi. Results for various values of v/c are shown in Table 1: v/c K(v) .999999 0.363371045179493 .5 6.57845423323069D-02 .1 2.50470713873419D-03 .01 2.5000468772296D-05 .001 2.50000048662713D-07 .0001 2.50000153911856D-09 Table 1 - Direct numerical estimation of K(v) These factors indicate the possibility of huge apparent net charges, especially from electrons moving at the speed of k shell electrons (if such could be made to move in a planar orbit.). The innermost electrons of Fe have an ionization potential of 9277.69 eV, and Ni has 10775.40 eV. Using half the ionization potential of Ni as electron kinetic energy we obtain: 1/2 m_e v^2 = (10775.4 eV)/2 = 8.63 J v = 4.35x10^7 m/s v = 0.145 c so more than 0.25 percent of the total charge for such electrons would appear as net apparent positive charge in the atom, if a sufficiently strong magnetic field could be applied so as to make K shell orbitals nearly flat (an astronomical magnitude magnetic field to be sure!) ANALYTICAL SOLUTION USING MATHEMATICA In order to obtain an exact form of the integral, Mathematica was used to integrate the pancake function obtaining a finite integral. Unfortunately a complete elliptic integral of the second kind appears in the solution. The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is given by: f_avg = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ f(x) dx ] so the value of net charge change factor K_incr(v) = 1 - k_avg is given by: K_incr(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] Mathematica says: [integral from 0 to 2 Pi] [ (1 - b sin^2 theta)^(-3/2) d theta] is given by: -(EllipticE[x, b]/(-1 + b)) + (b*Sin[2*x])/(Sqrt[2]*(-1 + b)* Sqrt[2 - b + b*Cos[2*x]]) which, when evaluated from 0 to 2 Pi, is -4(EllipticE[b])/(b-1) where EllipticE[b] is a complete elliptic integral of the second kind. So: K(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] = 1 - 1/(2 Pi) (1-b) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi] [ (1 - b sin^2 theta)^(-3/2) d theta] = 1 - 1/(2 Pi) (1-b) (-4(EllipticE[b])/(b-1)) = 1 - 4/(2 Pi) EllipticE[b] K(v) = 1 - 2 Pi EllipticE[v^2/c^2] or more appropriately: K(v) = 1 - 2 Pi EllipticE[v^2/c^2] Through use of Mathematica, the following confirming values of K(v) were obtained: Mathematica evaluation of K(v) = v/c K(v) 1 - 2 EllipticE[(v/c)^2]/Pi .999999 0.363371045179493 0.363375 .5 6.57845423323069D-02 0.0657845 .1 2.50470713873419D-03 0.00250471 .01 2.5000468772296D-05 0.0000250005 .001 2.50000048662713D-07 2.5e-7 .0001 2.50000153911856D-09 2.5e-9 Table 2 Thus it appears there is some evidence for a predicted net apparent charge, when matter is viewed in a plane containing the matter and normal to the magnetic field, in both neutral condensed matter and plasmas, or even magnetron chambers, if a sufficient magnetic field is present. The fact that apparent charge does not manifest in condensed matter might be construed to confirm the QM view that the "electron is everywhere" in the wave function, or that it has no specific location until sampled. There is thus no radiation from atoms because the orbital electrons do not actually "move." Plasma electrons are not so constrained by the QM boundaries as electrons in atoms though. The upper bound on the possible effect is less, due to lower velocities, but still significant. It should be noted that this speculation so far ignores the effects of charge acceleration and general relativity effects. Now, to evaluate the integral giving k(b) for b = (v/c)^2, b small. Given the first few terms of EllipticE: EllipticE[b] = Pi/2 - (Pi b^2)/8 - (3 Pi b^2)/128 + ... we can evaluate the integral giving k(b) for b = (v/c)^2, b small: K(v) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[b]/Pi = 1 - 2 {1/2 - b/8 - 3 b^2/128} K(v) = b/4 + (3/64) (b^2) which is pretty good, and for many things K(v) = b/4 works OK too, or the series K(v) = (1/4) b + (3/64) (b^2) + (5/256) (b^3) + (175/16384) (b^4) + ... can be used to compute the degree of accuracy desired. It is interesting though, that: EllipticE[1] = 1 so, a limit to the effect is provided by: K(c) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[q]/Pi = 1 - 2/Pi = 0.363380227632 EXAMINATION OF THE PANCAKING EFFECT Let's assume uniform circular motion, i.e. DC current, in a charge balanced medium. It is commonly assumed there is then no induction. However, it is often stated that accelerating charges produce fields, so perhaps the uniform acceleration of charges about the circle produce a field that precisely cancels the pancake effect field computed above. This would be a very unusual field that uniform charge acceleration about the circle must produce if it exactly cancels the special relativistic (SR) Coulomb field of a circle current, which is non-conservative. Given the SR Coulombic field pancaking equation and b = v^2/c^2, we have: k(theta) = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) At theta = 90 deg we have: k(Pi/2) = (1 - b)(1 - b)^(-3/2) = (1 - b)^(-1/2) = gamma(v) which represents an apparent charge increase for every charge as viewed from a point on the major axis and distant from the circle. The charge motion, from the polar vantage point, is viewed from the "side" at approximately 90 degrees. At theta = 0 deg. we have: K(v) = b/2 + ... which represents an apparent charge decrease. Using q' to designate the apparent charge observed for an actual current bearing charge q, this gives the following picture from the perspective of the velocity dependent SR field component: q' = q * gamma (q' > q) (-) N | | (+) o | x (+) q' = q * K(v) (q' < q) | | S Magnetic Poles (-) o - current out of page (electrons into page) x - current into page (electrons out of page) (+) - positive net apparent charge (-) - negative net apparent charge Fig. 1 - Diagram of SR based Coulombic field Note that, because the proposed current is carried by electrons moving within a positive medium, that the field is positive to the sides. If the current were carried by positive charge, the SR Coulombic field would be reversed. It appears that rapidly spinning bodies carrying current can appear to have one charge on the axis of spin and a different charge on the planar axis. In the case of fast rotating stars carrying large currents, this makes for a powerful polar jet producing mechanism. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 18:51:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05277; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 18:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <294301c3403c$34b999a0$6501a8c0@colinqamd1200> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <002b01c34038$9506c160$5e201f41@woh.rr.com> Subject: Re: vortex turbine Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:49:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [65.49.180.21] using ID at Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:49:28 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <"XMVAF2.0.CI1.QfZ0_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51038 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.americanantigravity.com/vortexthruster.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicholas Reiter" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:23 PM Subject: vortex turbine > Gentlemen, > > Honored I am to see my name tacked onto a thread for such a marathon > stretch. What better way to say thanks than by changing the topic. > > Here is an off the wall request. One of the projects I have been charged > with over the next few months by Dr. McMaster is to put together a large (at > least table top sized if not larger) device that would produce high volume > air movement that would model and mimic his "space pump" version of a black > hole. > > Specifically what I want to put together is a dual outlet air blower or > turbine that would have a radial / equatorial draw or inlet, with the > exhaust or outlets being axial. Harold wants me to build one and fire it up > to try to help him model space flow into and out of his theoretical > structure (in the scope of which a black hole and neutron/proton are > identical) > > So the gist is - anybody have suggestions for a blower or turbine that could > be built double ended for the desired output? Sounds pretty Schauberger to > me... > > Fellows, I will register your replies, if any, for a couple of days here > yet, but then I am going to be off list for a couple of weeks. Vacation > time - going to Nova Scotia. Crypto-archaeology, sniffing out Knights > Templar ruins, rock hounding, zeolite mining, and wots of wobster and cold > Canadian brew. C'est si bon. If I find and dig up the Ark of the Covenant, > I won't open it before dragging it back here to Ohio first. See, I had > always speculated if the Ark was some ancient alien "stargate" type > technology, I wanted to be the first human in three thousand years to lob a > beer bottle into it when it activates. Things that just seem right. > > Headed to Estotiland, > > NR > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Horace Heffner" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:04 PM > Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter > > > > At 4:07 PM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: > > >http://amasci.com/amateur/vortgen.html > > > > > > Thanks! > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 19:21:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA32409; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:20:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:20:50 -0700 Message-ID: <20030702022047.23341.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:20:47 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"LTbGu2.0.Gw7.26a0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51039 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: yeah, i caught that part. and? ohh, you no longer have it! gotcha, sorry. alex --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 4:07 PM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: > >http://amasci.com/amateur/vortgen.html > > > Thanks! > > > >scroll down a little. im going to work on an rc > >version of teh multi donut to see if it works. > > > > > >hmm, odd. beats me. i'd love to look at teh > sucker. > >any chance of getting some video of it? i'd host > if > >need be, i have some webspace. > > > You must have missed my two leading sentences about > this: "As for gyros, I > have a very different take on prospective research > based upon personal > experience. In the 1960's I had the opportunity to > get my hands on a > surplus gyrroscope that was DC driven and mounted in > gimbals with brushes. > " > > This occurred over 40 years ago. I think the gyro > may have come out of a > WWII bomber. Not sure. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 19:25:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA03285; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:25:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:25:14 -0700 Message-ID: <20030702022511.97583.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:25:11 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: vortex turbine To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <002b01c34038$9506c160$5e201f41@woh.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"feame.0.Ep.9Aa0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51040 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: will the whole shebang be rotating? you seem to imply that, but im not sure. also, are you saying the whole ring is pulling air in, and popping out two jets, up and down? (x-ray jets 90 degrees from angle of rotation of the hole? interesting.) and man, nice vacation. luuuuckkkyyy. course, id probably spend time in nova scotia trying to hunt spider robinson down. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 1 19:34:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA08906; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:33:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:33:45 -0700 Message-ID: <20030702023341.98319.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:33:41 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: SR applied to circular currents To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"9f5Ua3.0.4B2.8Ia0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51041 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HEAVY.... wow, interesting. unfortuanetly, my math so far is calc 1 (2 being next semester, i waited on my math and physics classes until the end of my 2 year. ahh well) but the gist of it seems to be that a substance under the force of a magnetic field, on an atomic level, the "probability clouds" where one finds electrons gets bent into a pancake shape, changing the bonding orbitals. this would account for the temporary magnetization of things, the generation of a magnetic field from run electricity trough something, and the fact that some things are magnetic and others not, based proabably on positive internal charge (number of protons, ie atomic number) and on valence configuration. unless i completely missed something.... and by changing the shape of the probabability clouds, would that also affect teh spin of things, generating a force by conservation of angular momentum? okay, head swimming, im going up for air! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 00:49:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA24994; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:48:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:48:39 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:53:21 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex turbine Resent-Message-ID: <"EM8K83.0.M66.Nve0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51042 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:23 PM 7/1/3, Nicholas Reiter wrote: >Specifically what I want to put together is a dual outlet air blower or >turbine that would have a radial / equatorial draw or inlet, with the >exhaust or outlets being axial. Harold wants me to build one and fire it up >to try to help him model space flow into and out of his theoretical >structure (in the scope of which a black hole and neutron/proton are >identical) > >So the gist is - anybody have suggestions for a blower or turbine that could >be built double ended for the desired output? Sounds pretty Schauberger to >me... / \ / \ / \ / \ / ----v---- \ | ======= | | ||||||| | | ||||||| | | ======= | |----| I |----| | I | --------- ------- --------- |motor| --------- ------- --------- | I | |----| I |----| | ======= | | ||||||| | | ||||||| | | ======= | \ ----^---- / \ / \ / \ / ======= ||||||| ||||||| - Centrifugal blower cage ======= (open ended where power shaft "I" enters) I Fig. 1 - Cross section of McMaster blower I don't know how big you want it, but Fig. 1 shows one variation (of many) using one or two centrifugal blowers. For simplicity support struts are not shown. A possible source for nearly complete and fairly cheap cowling material, and blowers too, might be a home vacuum sweeper supplier, the kind that supply big central vacs. The above can be made in one or two motor versions, and one or two blower versions, depending on the cowling used. The proportions are distorted due to using ASCII, but it is easy to see that it can be made in all kinds of proportions, all kinds of power ranges. > >Fellows, I will register your replies, if any, for a couple of days here >yet, but then I am going to be off list for a couple of weeks. Vacation >time - going to Nova Scotia. Crypto-archaeology, sniffing out Knights >Templar ruins, rock hounding, zeolite mining, and wots of wobster and cold >Canadian brew. C'est si bon. If I find and dig up the Ark of the Covenant, >I won't open it before dragging it back here to Ohio first. See, I had >always speculated if the Ark was some ancient alien "stargate" type >technology, I wanted to be the first human in three thousand years to lob a >beer bottle into it when it activates. Things that just seem right. > >Headed to Estotiland, Sounds like you will have a lot of fun, one way or another! Watch out for incoming beer bottles from the portal! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 00:59:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA31346; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:58:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:58:06 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 00:02:50 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex turbine Resent-Message-ID: <"azM5b3.0.hf7.E2f0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51043 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I forgot to mention that this is radially symmetric in the vertical axis. Also forgot to add some air flow arrows. ^ / | \ / air \ / \ / \ / ----v---- \ | ======= | | ||||||| | | ||||||| | | ======= | |----| I |----| | I | --------- ------- --------- air --> |motor| <-- air --------- ------- --------- | I | |----| I |----| | ======= | | ||||||| | | ||||||| | | ======= | \ ----^---- / \ / \ air / \ | / v ======= ||||||| ||||||| - Centrifugal blower cage ======= (open ended where power shaft "I" enters) I Fig. 1 - Cross section of McMaster blower Fig. 1 shows one variation (of many) using one or two centrifugal blowers. For simplicity support struts are not shown. A possible source for nearly complete and fairly cheap cowling material, and blowers too, might be a home vacuum sweeper supplier, the kind that supply big central vacs. The above can be made in one or two motor versions, and one or two blower versions, depending on the cowling used. The proportions are distorted due to using ASCII, but it is easy to see that it can be made in all kinds of proportions, all kinds of power ranges. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 01:43:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA20621; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 01:42:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 01:42:34 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030702094145.006bb4e8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 09:41:45 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"2HnA11.0.y15.whf0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51044 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mmm....Thanks Horace for a very informative post which unfortunately I seem to have misfiled. Let's see if I've understood things properly. Suppose we have a spherical black box with a shell of numerous gyros just under the surface. The gyros are fixed in a suitable frame so that their axes of rotation point towards the centre of the sphere. Half the gyros on the white squares of each checker board pattern surface element rotate CW and the other half on the black squares rotate CCW. Now as I understand you, an external observer asked to rotate this sphere would feel no difference in resistance to rotation between the state where the gyros were stationary and the gyros were running. I am of course assuming perfect gyros and an indefinitely stiff, indefinitely strong frame. Is that correct, please? :-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 02:42:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA14826; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 02:41:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 02:41:47 -0700 Message-ID: <011201c3407e$48d3c180$6501a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: bifilar coil Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 05:42:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010F_01C3405C.C1976800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"my5Hn1.0.Td3.QZg0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51045 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010F_01C3405C.C1976800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I finished the coil last night. The romex cable is 14 ga not 12 as = previously said. There are 37 layers of cable in the radial direction. = The cable has a 14 ga ground between the black and white conductors. = The inner ends of the black and white are connected with a wire nut. I = put a pulsed dc signal of 2.5 v on the other end up to 8 khz. I put a = Scope Plus 440 across the ground wire. =20 Somebody predict what if anything I saw on the scope. Jeff Fink ------=_NextPart_000_010F_01C3405C.C1976800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I finished the coil last night.  = The romex=20 cable is 14 ga not 12 as previously said.  There are 37 layers of = cable in=20 the radial direction.  The cable has a 14 ga ground between the = black and=20 white conductors.  The inner ends of the black and white are = connected with=20 a wire nut.  I put a pulsed dc signal of 2.5 v on the other end up = to 8=20 khz.  I put a Scope Plus 440 across the ground wire.  =
 
Somebody predict what if anything I saw = on the=20 scope.
 
Jeff Fink
------=_NextPart_000_010F_01C3405C.C1976800-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 05:37:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA29632; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 05:35:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 05:35:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3F02D1DD.7020906@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 08:36:45 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Why Dubya Fell Off IT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0fe1N3.0.tE7.I6j0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51046 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suspected as much. From the Segway Newsletter: Presidential Segway HT ownership. Bush Jr. and Sr. riding in Maine.It was hard to miss the news that former President and Mrs. George Bush, Sr. are the proud owners of two new Segway HTs. The Bush children (Dorothy, George W., Jeb and Neil) bought a Segway HT for their dad George H. W. Bush in celebration of both his 79th birthday and Father's Day. Barbara Bush liked the Segway HT so much that Dean Kamen made sure she received one too so she and her husband could enjoy their Segway HTs together. Both Mrs. Bush and the former President received orientation from Segway staff at their Walker's Point home in Kennebunkport, Maine. Much to the disappointment of the Segway staff, they had to leave before current President Bush arrived that very same day. Not having attended orientation (and maybe deciding not to listen to his mother), President Bush did not turn the Segway HT on before climbing aboard (and, we might add, neglected to put down his tennis racket). The result, of course, was that he didn't balance! Later that same day, the whole family was seen taking turns on the Segway HTs and having fun around the family grounds. This newsletter (via email) also mentions that the less expensive 'p' version (personal?) is in preproduction trials. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 07:14:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA20325; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 07:13:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 07:13:11 -0700 Message-ID: <20030702141308.88914.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 07:13:08 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Why Dubya Fell Off IT To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F02D1DD.7020906@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"BYWRL.0.Vz4.tXk0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51047 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: meaning, he didnt listen to previous intelligence given to him on the situation, and instead interpreted things himself in such a way as was best for him, at the time. in the immortal words of gomer pyle Surprise, Surprise, Surprise... --- Terry Blanton wrote: > I suspected as much. From the Segway Newsletter: > > Presidential Segway HT ownership. > > Bush Jr. and Sr. riding in Maine.It was hard to miss > the news that > former President and Mrs. George Bush, Sr. are the > proud owners of two > new Segway HTs. The Bush children (Dorothy, George > W., Jeb and Neil) > bought a Segway HT for their dad George H. W. Bush > in celebration of > both his 79th birthday and Father's Day. Barbara > Bush liked the Segway > HT so much that Dean Kamen made sure she received > one too so she and her > husband could enjoy their Segway HTs together. Both > Mrs. Bush and the > former President received orientation from Segway > staff at their > Walker's Point home in Kennebunkport, Maine. Much to > the disappointment > of the Segway staff, they had to leave before > current President Bush > arrived that very same day. Not having attended > orientation (and maybe > deciding not to listen to his mother), President > Bush did not turn the > Segway HT on before climbing aboard (and, we might > add, neglected to put > down his tennis racket). The result, of course, was > that he didn't > balance! Later that same day, the whole family was > seen taking turns on > the Segway HTs and having fun around the family > grounds. > > > > This newsletter (via email) also mentions that the > less expensive 'p' > version (personal?) is in preproduction trials. > > Terry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 08:06:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA20262; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:03:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:03:12 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030702110005.0271adb0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:02:48 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Scientists baffled by huge, gelatinous sea creature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"mQHcg1.0.Py4.lGl0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51048 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/07/02/chile.science.reut/index.html I love this kind of news story. It sounds like something from the National Enquirer or a 1950 sci fi movie, but apparently it is a legitimate report. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 08:35:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA05461; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:33:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:33:26 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.1.20030702173041.00a7e368@pop.onlinehome.de> X-Sender: cc8592609-688@pop.onlinehome.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 17:37:15 +0200 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Huffman Subject: Cavitation In-Reply-To: <20030702141308.88914.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F02D1DD.7020906@rtpatlanta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"SfVir.0.6L1.4jl0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51049 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ahoy There! Just ran across this reference, and thought you might be interested. It seems that Christopher E. Brennen has made his excellent book "Cavitation and Bubble Dynamics" available online *for free* through the Cal Poly electronic library. Indeed, it seems to be the very first book to be made available, and at the present, the only book available. http://caltechbook.library.caltech.edu/archive/00000001/00/bubble.htm Definitely worth checking out if you are a fellow bubblehead. Knuke From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 08:42:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA09691; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:40:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:40:29 -0700 Message-ID: <20030702154026.51553.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:40:26 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Scientists baffled by huge, gelatinous sea creature To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030702110005.0271adb0@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"8qB9n2.0.LN2.jpl0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51050 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: oddly enough, a bunch of us have been trying to find pictures of this sucker. no dice. one theory is that it IS a giant jellyfish. jellyfish are a delicacy for humpbacks, and its possible the two killed each other. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/07/02/chile.science.reut/index.html > > I love this kind of news story. It sounds like > something from the National > Enquirer or a 1950 sci fi movie, but apparently it > is a legitimate report. > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 09:58:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA00811; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:56:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:56:46 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:01:23 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"l2_H93.0.VC.Cxm0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51051 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:41 AM 7/2/3, Grimer wrote: >Mmm....Thanks Horace for a very informative post which unfortunately I >seem to have misfiled. Let's see if I've understood things properly. Here is what I said in relation to the content of this post: "Any number of gyros in a box will act just like one gyro that has the angular momentum which is the (vector) sum of the angular momentums of all the gyros in the box." A copy of my response is appended for convenience. I must note, and should have noted, that my comments are based (or at least intended to be based) on the standard mechanics approach. Since I feel I have personally witnessed in limited cases what appear to be violations of standard mechanics by gryros, I keep a somewhat open mind as to the possible outcome of actual experiments. > >Suppose we have a spherical black box with a shell of numerous gyros >just under the surface. The gyros are fixed in a suitable frame so that >their axes of rotation point towards the centre of the sphere. >Half the gyros on the white squares of each checker board pattern surface >element rotate CW and the other half on the black squares rotate CCW. What is this game, stump the panelist? This is a trick question! 8^) You can't tile a spherical surface with "numerous" squares, unless 8 qualifies as numerous, and they aren't really squares. The only regular polyhedron which will fill what appears to be your intended goal is the cube, which can be inscribed within the sphere. In that case the angular momentum vectors from gyros on opposite corners of the cube *reinforce*. The result will be the same as a gyro having the vector sum of the 8 angular momenta, or 4 gyros with twice the angular momentum aligned on the 4 diagonals of the cube. > >Now as I understand you, an external observer asked to rotate this sphere >would feel no difference in resistance to rotation between the state >where the gyros were stationary and the gyros were running. I am of course >assuming perfect gyros and an indefinitely stiff, indefinitely strong frame. > >Is that correct, please? :-) The emoticon above is because this is a practical joke? 8^) The straight answer is no, that is incorrect. At 8:47 AM 7/1/3, Grimer wrote: >While we are discussing gyros......... > >Imagine a black box with three fixed orthogonal silent >running gyros. Any number of gyros in a box will act just like one gyro that has the angular momentum which is the (vector) sum of the angular momentums of all the gyros in the box. > >Ask someone to estimate its mass by rotating it. By rotating on each of three orthogonal axes the observer will quickly determine that there is a gyro in the box. Outside the scope of your statement above are the facts that the inertial mas of the box can quickly be determined by shaking the box. The gravitational mass of the box can be determined by weighing the box. There is no reason (in standard physics) to expect that these are affected by the angular momenta of gyros within. > >Their estimate could well exceed the mass of any >material known, even if they assumed that the mass was all >concentrated in a surface layer. Not true. When rotating the box either NO resistance wil be detected (but the bearings might be moaning!) or otherwise a right angle precessional force will be felt. In no axis of rotation will the inirtial moment appear to be simply increased. > >But materials are stuffed full of various rotating thingees >at various different scales. > >Now suppose that these milli, micro, pico, nano gyros were >arranged by nature so that instead of increasing the >rotational inertia in the manner of our fixed gyros, they >actually reduced it. What is the mechanism that makes this possible? This is like saying: "suppose we throw a bunch of bolts in a box and it gets lighter." It just makes no sense to me. Can you clear this up? >In effect they are cunning servomechanical >devices which amplify any rotational moment we apply to the >black box. Such a mass would have a negative angular moment of inertia. Unless I have missed something it appears you have not suggested any rational source for this kind of physical quantity. What I have suggested is that the only mechanism that can reduce inertial mass, and thus it is also implied angular moments of inertia, at normal velocities and accelerations, is electromagnetic in nature. Under the gravity-EM field isomophism discussed earlier, the equation of inertia F = m*a yields an imaginary number, thus inertia should not exist as a real force. The equation is fundamentally wrong, and must be replaced by an equation that is electromagnetic in nature. The electromagnetics of the gyros is thus their important aspect, not solely their angular momentum. If there is a plausible theory that quantitatively relates angular momentum to changes in inertial mass I would like to see it. The de Palma pages *do* present a formula which is most interesting, but without derivation and without confirmation via replication. I think it must be true that the mysteries of inertia lie in the nature of the electromagnetic fields of the constiuents of matter. However, this too is only a point in a hopeful direction, and not a resolution of the problem. However, this idea that inertia is a result of the EM nature of matter has been put forth by a number of authors, though for other reasons. One such author is Hal Puthoff, who was once a memeber of this list, who showed inertia to result from an (EM) interaction of matter with the zero point field. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 10:03:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA05338; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:01:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:01:59 -0700 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3F0300C3.13475402@centurytel.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 15:56:51 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xa" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xa" Resent-Message-ID: <"EIVFi2.0.8J1.50n0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51052 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: There are those who might disagree, but experimental experience indicates to me that centrifugal force is a result of angular motion with respect to the fixed stars ... Hi All, Horace's view is given an excellent exposition in "Relational Mechanics" by Andre K. T. Assis, 1999 (This book can be purchased at Amazon.com.) Jack Smith p. 66 "Newton's Bucket Experiment ... What is important to stress here and in the previous examples of the circular orbit of the planets and of the two globes, is that this centrifugal force has no physical origin in Newtonian mechanics ... p. 217 "... relational mechanics predicts the appearance of a real gravitational centrifugal force exerted by the distant universe spinning around the bucket. We can then say that this centrifugal force presses the water against the wall of the bucket making the water rise on this wall until the centrifugal force is balanced by the gradient of pressure." p. 219 "Foucault's Pendulum ... What should be emphasized again is that relational mechanics offers a physical explanation of the Coriolis force. It is now seen as a real gravitational force due to a relative rotation between the earth and the frame of distant galaxies," p.259 "... the main lines ... have already been laid down: no absolute space or time; only relational quantities should be involved; all forces should come from interactions between material bodies; for point particles the force should be directed along the line joining them and should obey the principle of action and reaction; ..." p. 261 "... We have been able to eplain the coincidence of Newtonian mechanics that the universe as a whole does not rotate relative to absolute space or to any inertial frame of reference. In other words, we have explained why the kinematical rotation of the earth is identical to its dynamical rotation ... We have derived the fact that all inertial forces of Newtonian mechanics, like the centrifugal force or Coriolis forces, are real forces ... This also explains the concavity in Newton's bucket as due to a relative rotation between the water and the distant universe ..." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 11:20:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12057; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:16:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:16:23 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: bifilar coil Resent-Message-ID: <"zKNQN1.0.Gy2.L6o0_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51053 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:42 AM 7/2/3, revtec wrote: >I finished the coil last night. The romex cable is 14 ga not 12 as >previously said. There are 37 layers of cable in the radial direction. >The cable has a 14 ga ground between the black and white conductors. The >inner ends of the black and white are connected with a wire nut. I put a >pulsed dc signal of 2.5 v on the other end up to 8 khz. I put a Scope >Plus 440 across the ground wire. > >Somebody predict what if anything I saw on the scope. Why should anyone bother to play games like this when you already have the results? It is up to *you* to post results. All the same, the inductance of the coil and self capacitances are low, thus you get a root resonance at a fairly high frequency and in my experience you get apparent strong resonances and overtones at frequencies all over the place. It is a very noisy low impedence LC ciruit. To do something useful, I would suggest you try to build two identical coils and attempt to use one as a transmitter to the other, with the second coil well shielded by 5 or 6 layers of aluminum foil. You can quickly build a powerful bifilar coil simply by purchasing twisted pair wire on spools - provided the inside end of the wire sticks out to the side from a hole in the spool or is otherwise easily available. To provide some possibly useful or at least amusing background, a selective summary of my 1998 vortex posts regarding a similar configuration follows. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 5/31/98 This brief experiment is related to Jean-Louis Naudin's "Scalar Waves Transmitter" Naudin's experiment uses a Caduceus coil to transmit to a portable radio inside a metal Faraday shield. The purpose of this experiment is determine if a bifilar coil exhibits similar properities. A spool of antique twisted pair 20 ga. cotton insulated wire was used. The wire was labeled "LENZ ELECTRIC MFG. CO.", "RADIO AND SWITCHBOARD WIRE." The steel spool was 6.5" dia., 6" high with 2" inner dia. hollow steel core. It is estimated that there were appx. 750 turns of twisted pair, 1500 turns total. The spool was driven by a signal generator generating 548 kHz sin wave. The wavelegth was about 547 meters. The receiver was a battery powered portable radio tuned to 540 kHz, a local radio station. The frequency from 540 - 550 was swept and 548 was found to produce the most audible reponse. The radio was placed inside a cookie tin. The radio went silent when placed inside the tin with the lid on. A 10 ohm current sensing resistor was used on the powered end of the coil, and a voltage probe placed on the opposing end of the coil. It was determined, by moving the tin about, that the best reception, with the tin closed, was on the coil axis. The tin was placed under the table holding the spool, a distance of about 2.5 feet. Morse code like signals were successfully sent to the reciever, even though it was totally enclosed in a metal container. With the coil in a bifilar configuration, the current sense voltage was about 600 mV pk-pk, so the current was about 42 mA RMS. The voltage was about 20 V pk-pk. To rule out ordinary wave transmission the coil was configure in various ways. First the wire ends were connected to make a normal 1500 turn coil. This produced the worst results, and the lowest power through the coil due to the much higher inductance. However, the sound of the code pulse could clearly be heard. Next current was passed through a single leg of the coil. This produced better power, but still, the sound of the radio was not as loud as with the bifilar coil arrangement. Last, the two ends of the coil were connected to the oscillator, but the circuit not closed. Surprisingly, this produced a good tranmission with less current than the main bifilar configuration. It appears this happened due mainly to the capacitive coupling between the two wires of the twisted pair set. It appears Naudin's main results, transmission to a radio enclosed in a Farady cage, were achieved. The results are inconclusive because the various control experiments also gave positive results. This could be due to the fact that the capacitive coupling of the twisted pair wires partially converts the coil into a bifialar coil even in the control runs, and thus causes scalar waves to be transmitted. The positive control results could also be due to the fact more shielding is needed. There could be a problem with the degree of shielding. Lastly, the wavetype used was not EM radiation, most likely, but direct magnetic fields. One fact of use to US experimenters was obtained: this experiment works in the USA AM band. Experiments in this low wavelength present difficulties in measuring their "speed of light". A single oscillation takes 1.8 microseconds. With a wavelength of 547 meters, a speed of light test would require tranmission over long distances. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6/1/98 Experimenting and reporting has been hampered by a twisted left knee, and an earlier injured right ankle. It's getting tough to get around! BIFILAR COIL EXPERIMENT #2 To improve the Faraday shielding over The bifilar coil experiment #1, the tin containing the radio was placed inside a heavy steel cabinet. The cabinet, now contining a high voltage DC power supply (off), was formerly an IBM 3274 controller cabinet, about a 2' x 2' x 1.5' heavy guage steel cabinet. The cabinet doors, as manufactured, are both ground strapped, and have contact brushes and contact plates on the unhinged sides to ensure good signal shielding. The cabinet is grounded through use of the ground wire to a three pronged receptical. The tin was placed inside the power supply cabinet, at distance of about 2.5 feet from the coil, 3.5 feet from the oscillator, both of which were placed on a 2"x10"x2' platform outside the grounded cabinet, at the level of the tin. Morse code like signals were successfully sent to the reciever, even though it was totally enclosed in a grounded heavy steel cabintet, and inside the tin. The transmission was successful both with the interior tin insulated by bubble sheet packing material, and when grounded to the cabinet with an allegator clipped test lead. This time the voltage probe was placed at the oscillator output lead. The current sensing resisto was again placed right after the ground lead from the oscillator. With the coil in a normal bifilar configuration, the current sense voltage was 546 mV RMS, so the current was about 54.6 mA RMS. The output voltage was 5.45 Vrms. Call this the closed circuit configuration. To check the capacitive/inductive linkage in the coil, vs conductive linkage, the two sides of the twisted pair were disconnected at the far end of the coil, eliminating any conductive linkage. With the coil in a nonconductive configuration, the current sense voltage was 485 mV RMS, so the current was about 48.5 mA RMS. The output voltage was 5.75 Vrms. Call this the open circuit configuration. In the open configuration the current lead the voltage by about 30 degrees. In the closed onfiguration, current lagged voltage by about 60 degrees. The x-y plot of current vs voltage produced an ellipse with major/minor axis ratio of about 3, while, at the same settings, the ratio was about 1.7 for the closed configuration. Both the open closed configurations transmitted well. To check directionality again, the coil was left in position, and rotated through the three axes. There did not seem to be any change in volume based on the direction of the coil. It is therefore assumed the apparent directionality in experiment #1 was caused by moving the connecting leads about, or possibly an unintentional change in distance, or both. It was noticed that if my hand touched the lead being used for make/brake Morse code type sending, that the tone could be heard at a reduced volume. The coil was disconnected and removed from the vicinity of the experiment. By simply touching the live lead the tone was transmitted. The coil was returned. The live lead was repeatedly touched to a single lead of the coil, but no tone was heard. The live lead was touched to another cookie tin, but still no tranmission. Something about my body made a fair transmitter. CONCLUSION Though things are more interesting, the results are still far from conclusive. The signal was successfully sent though a double shield, one of which was commercially designed to prevent RF radiation. Both grounded and ungrounded shield configurations were tested. In this sense the experiment again successfully replicates Naudin's results, but with a bifilar configuration, and in the higher frequency AM band. The ability to penetrate the shields was not dependent upon either a Caducius coil not a bifilar coil as transmitter. Neither is it clear exactly what makes for a good antenna. The human body made a partially effective transmitter, when various metal objects, and lengthy test leads, failed as transmitters. CONFIGURATION INFORMATION REPEATED FROM #1 This brief experiment is related to Jean-Louis Naudin's "Scalar Waves Transmitter" Naudin's experiment uses a Caduceus coil to transmit to a portable radio inside a metal Faraday shield. The purpose of this experiment is determine if a bifilar coil exhibits similar properities. A spool of antique twisted pair 20 ga. cotton insulated wire was used. The wire was labeled "LENZ ELECTRIC MFG. CO.", "RADIO AND SWITCHBOARD WIRE." The steel spool was 6.5" dia., 6" high with 2" inner dia. hollow steel core. It is estimated that there were appx. 750 turns of twisted pair, 1500 turns total. The spool was driven by a signal generator generating 548 kHz sin wave. The wavelegth was about 547 meters. The receiver was a battery powered portable radio tuned to 540 kHz, a local radio station. The frequency from 540 - 550 was swept and 548 was found to produce the most audible reponse. The radio was placed inside a cookie tin. The radio goes silent when placed inside the tin with the lid on. A 10 ohm current sensing resistor was used on the powered end of the coil, and a voltage probe placed on the opposing end of the coil. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6/1/98 BIFILAR COIL EXPERIMENT #3 The purpose of this experiment was to evaluate the importance of broadcast intensity and to evaluate foil wrapping as a shielding material. First the oscillator amplitude was adjusted so that when the radio was placed in the cabinet at its test location, without the tin, and with the doors open, the volume of the radio station could be heard at about the same intensity as the signal beep. With the oscillator held on, the conversation on the radio could be understood. This is a very cheap portable radio obtained for free as a marketing incentive. The signal current was 5.4 mA RMS, the voltage 521 mV, the broadcast distance about 2.5 feet. Using cos(30 deg.) as power factor, gives 1.4 mW broadcast power. The plastic radio was placed in the center of the tin on a 1/2" foam board. When the lid was placed on the cookie tin, the radio station was blacked out, but the code beep could be clearly heard. This was also true when both the tin was in place and grounded (or not) and sealed in the grounded cabinet. Next the tin was wrapped in two layers of tin foil. It took two pieces to make one layer of foil, one wrapped top to bottom to top, another wrapped around the sides. With two layers, the code beep could not be heard, even when the tin was by itself, outside the cabinet. It could not be heard regardless of the means of transmission. The code beep was finally heard when the tin was placed directly upon the bifilar coil and the transmission amplitude turned up. CONCLUSION This, to me, is fairly conclusive proof that, as the shielding gets better, the effect goes away. It is still a curiosity that the signal penetrated the shielding much better than an ordinary AM radio broadcast of the same intensity. It is notable that the shielding that was penetrated was primarily composed of iron, so the penetration may be magnetically based. Also of interest is the illogical premise of this experiment. The scalar waves are thought to penetrate conductive shielding, to be impervious to it, due to a lack of EM force interactions. However, to receive the waves, the scalar waves, having gone through the shielding and thus stripped of any EM components, must affect the receiver antenna, so the receiver antenna itself must interact with the scalar waves. There is no basis to think that the antenna will interact with scalar waves when the shielding will not. CONFIGURATION INFORMATION REPEATED FROM PRIOR EXPERIMENTS This brief experiment is related to Jean-Louis Naudin's "Scalar Waves Transmitter" Naudin's experiment uses a Caduceus coil to transmit to a portable radio inside a metal Faraday shield. The purpose of this experiment is determine if a bifilar coil exhibits similar properities. A spool of antique twisted pair 20 ga. cotton insulated wire was used. The wire was labeled "LENZ ELECTRIC MFG. CO.", "RADIO AND SWITCHBOARD WIRE." The steel spool was 6.5" dia., 6" high with 2" inner dia. hollow steel core. It is estimated that there were appx. 750 turns of twisted pair, 1500 turns total. The spool was driven by a signal generator generating 548 kHz sin wave. The wavelegth was about 547 meters. The receiver was a battery powered portable radio tuned to 540 kHz, a local radio station. The frequency from 540 - 550 was swept and 548 was found to produce the most audible reponse. The radio was placed inside a cookie tin. The radio goes silent when placed inside the tin with the lid on. A 10 ohm current sensing resistor was used on the powered end of the coil, and a voltage probe placed on the opposing end of the coil. To improve the Faraday shielding over The bifilar coil experiment #1, the tin containing the radio was placed inside a heavy steel cabinet. The cabinet, now containing a high voltage DC power supply (off), was formerly an IBM 3274 controller cabinet, about a 2' x 2' x 1.5' heavy guage steel cabinet. The cabinet doors, as manufactured, are both ground strapped, and have contact brushes and contact plates on the unhinged sides to ensure good signal shielding. The cabinet is grounded through use of the ground wire to a three pronged receptical. The tin was placed inside the power supply cabinet, at distance of about 2.5 feet from the coil, 3.5 feet from the oscillator, both of which were placed on a 2"x10"x2' platform outside the grounded cabinet, at the level of the tin. The voltage probe was placed at the oscillator output lead. The current sensing resistor was placed right after the ground lead from the oscillator. With the coil in a normal bifilar configuration, the current sense voltage was 546 mV RMS, so the current was about 54.6 mA RMS. The output voltage was 5.45 Vrms. Call this the closed circuit configuration. To check the capacitive/inductive linkage in the coil, vs conductive linkage, the two sides of the twisted pair were disconnected at the far end of the coil, eliminating any conductive linkage. With the coil in a nonconductive configuration, the current sense voltage was 485 mV RMS, so the current was about 48.5 mA RMS. The output voltage was 5.75 Vrms. Call this the open circuit configuration. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6/2/98 Some clarifying comments about the configuration being used for the Bifilar coil experiments: (1) There has been no attempt to shield the transmitter side, only the battery powered radio used as a receiver. The shield for the radio has been both grounded and not grounded, without change to the results. The bifilar coil *is* partially shielded in that it is wound on a steel reel, however, orientration of the coil seemed to have no effect. (2) A commercial signal generator was used, a BK Precison model 4040, for transmitter power. It provides a digital frequency meter and good control over frequency, waveform and attenuation. (3) Other than being based upon the basic *assertions* made in Naudin's experiment, i.e. that scalar waves can be transmitted to a radio in a Faraday cage, the experiment bears no resemblance to Naudin's experiment. This is meant to be a quick look at the experimental results and assumptions to see what's going on with the experiment. (4) The power levels being used appear to be vastly lower than Naudin's. (5) Calibration of the transmission power used was achieved by varying the gain so the recieved audio volume was similar to a radio station on the same frequency, when no shielding was involved. This is a very casual calibration method, appropriate to the degree of rigor being applied. All that is being measued is a yes/no result. The only thing noticed in a quantitative way was the fact that the human body acted as a successful transmitter with about half the audible volume genberated from the reciever. A good quantitative test would probably involve fiber optics, etc. (6) The importance of the role of the transmitting antenna is established by the fact that the signal transmitted is Morse code like. The make and break of the connection to the transmitter is key. 8^) This was especially true in the human body tranmission test, due to the fact there was no conductive closed circuit involved. (7) The important things learned so far: (a) Naudin's principle result, tranmission of a signal to a Faraday caged radio, when a radio signal on the same frequency is totally supressed, was achieved, though the mechanism of transmission used was different. (b) A bifilar coil produced good results. The human body produced about half the effect when used as a transmitter, without a circuit being completed to ground. Other metallic items, including the bifilar coil itself, did not work in this mode. (c) A bifilar coil of the size used, due to the strong capacitive linkage, works even without a conductive connection of the twisted pair. The power draw from the oscillator was almost unchanged. (d) Multiple layers of shield made of steel did not suppress the "scalar" signal, while it did totally suppress the 540 kHz AM signal. (e) A layer of steel covered with two layers of aluminum foil provided total shielding at the power level used. It is now known how to get good shielding of the radio, by using layers of aliminum foil, two sheets to a layer, one wrapped radially, the other around the circumference. This experiment indicates that whatever the means of communication that occurred in the experiments above, scalar, longitudinal, etc., that a good receiving antenna might consist of an aluminum receiver enclosed in a ferrous compartment, possibly a spherical ferrous compartment, and that the best transmitter might match, though the interior conductive component might be made of copper. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 11:53 AM 6/4/98, Peter Nielsen wrote: >>Scalar waves >>supposedly require no energy to generate. So, a means of decoding them >>would be getting something for nothing, right? >> >>Horace Heffner >> > >It takes current to drive a non-inductive bifilar coil as used for >generation of scalars. The output is proportional. > >Peter Nielsen Scalar radiation carries no energy. Its Poynting vector is zero. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume the energy going into the bifilar coil is going into heat and into genuine EM radiation. I think this must be a clue as to what is happening with my coil, and in the various scalar wave type experiments. I think in my experiment there is a form of EM radiation being created that is much better at ferrous conductor penetration than ordinary AM radio. It also seems to be realy bad at penetrating multiple layers of aluminum foil. This would not be the case for genuine scalar waves. Detectability of scalar waves is a multi-edged sword. If they are detectable, then either they are shieldable, or energy is not conserved. The more easily detected the less material it takes to absorb or reflect them, or vice versa. BTW, I think the efficiency of aluminum foil at shielding is a good sign that a waveguide might be made from aluminum, which might aid in speed of light tests and other diagnosic measures. The notion of scalar wave detectability seems a bit incredible to me. Ordinary matter, consisting of matched vast and matched quantities of charge, must generate very large magnitude scalar waves, when in periodic motion. Suppose we have a 440 Hz tuning fork (one of Frank Stenger's ideas), with 0.1 cm sway, that would be 0.2 cm per cycle and or 88 cm/sec avg. velocity. Fe has density of 7.86 g/cm^3, and at. wt. of 55.85. Let's assume the "business end" of the fork has about 4 cm^3. The no. of moles is 4/55.85 = 0.0716 moles = 4.313x10^22 atoms. Fe has 52 protons and 52 electrons so Q = 4.49 x 10 ^24 q = 7.19x10^5 coulombs moving at 88 cm/sec. Lets assume they are distributed over about 2 cm, so at a linear velocity of 88 cm/sec the charge goes by at a rate of 2/88 sec = 2.27x10^-2 seconds, so the equivalent current is 31.7 MA. Let's consider a 30 cm radius, 2 cm x 2 cm square cross section iron or steel rod. The "buisness end" might be considered 8 cm long. so that's 32 cm^3 of Fe or 0.572 moles = 3.45x10^23 atoms = 3.59x10^25 q = 5.74x10^6 coulombs. At 3600 RPM, the rotation speed would be 3.14159 x 26 x 2 cm/sec = 163.3 cm/sec. The charge goes by in 2/163.3 = 1.224x10^-2 sec. The peak current would be 469 MA, at 60 Hz. To get dI/dt we can use a 2 x (469 MA) / (1/60 sec) = 56.3 GA/sec for the rod. One GA is a billion amps. For the tuning fork, 2 x 31.7 MA/(1/440 sec) = 27.9 GA/sec. Not much difference. Vibration speed makes up for less mass. It appears sonically vibrating large masses should produce enormous scalar radiation. Earthquakes and atom bomb blasts should produce whopping scalar waves. We are immersed in a giant scalar field - that of the earth, due to its rotation. If scalar fields can be manipulated to produce scalar waves, we have no need to build the scalar field generator! For some reason I just don't think a tuning fork will produce a detectable scalar wave. Even though it should produce ten billion times the scalar radiation of my modest little bifilar coil experiment, I can't believe for a second it will produce an EM signal detectable at a range where the sound is abated, say 1000 yards. If completely acoustically isolated, I don't think the vibrating would be detectable at even 1 yard using any of the scalar detectors. That is not to say that there is not scientifically interesting and possibly useful information to be had from the scalar experiments. In my experiment, for example, it appears, due to the calibration of the broadcast energy, matching the radio output to that of a broadcast station, that very slective shielding was going on with the steel cages. The AM signal was attenuated, the bifilar coil output was not. However, it has just occurred to me that this was not a good calibration. The sine wave signal from the bifilar coil was not modulated, so the audio output matching was bogus. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6/4/98 BIFILAR COIL EXPERIMENT #4 The purpose of this experiment was to evaluate the importance of signal modulation when calibrating transmission energy to match the AM station energy. In the prior experiment the signal current was 5.4 mA RMS, the voltage 521 mV RMS, the broadcast distance about 2.5 feet. Using cos(30 deg.) as power factor, gives 2.4 mW broadcast power. To eliminate the need for manual keying, and thus free up hands for playing withthe signal generator settings, the signal generator was set in burst mode, using about 1/4 second bursts once every 1 second. The signal generator was set to 50 percent modulation. This produced a beep a second on radio. Attenuation of the generator output was adjusted unitl the volume of the beep produced matched the volume of the broadcast. The calibrated values were 2.9 mA RMS at 252 mV RMS. Again using cos(30 deg.) = 0.866 as the power factor, that gives 0.63 mW as output power. When the lid was placed on the tin, the volume of both the radio signal and the beep were fully attenuated. The best beep volume was at about 549.1 kHz. It appears the radio station is broadcasting on 550 kHz, not 540 kHz, as the radio dial says. It is interesting that FM modulation produced a more audible beep then AM modulation with the same power. Using 20 percent frequency modulation the calibration values were about 1.7 mA at 124 mV, or 0.18 mW. When the attenuation of the signal generator was changed to match the prior experiments the beep could clearly be heard, though the radio station could not. CONCLUSION Better calibration using modulated output eliminates the result of the apparent penetration of the steel cage with the bifilar coil output. This experiment has indicated that the bifilar coil experiment results previously obained were actually artifacts. Thus a negative result is obtained at this frequency using a bifilar coil as described. CONFIGURATION INFORMATION REPEATED FROM PRIOR EXPERIMENTS This brief experiment is related to Jean-Louis Naudin's "Scalar Waves Transmitter" Naudin's experiment uses a Caduceus coil to transmit to a portable radio inside a metal Faraday shield. The purpose of this experiment is determine if a bifilar coil exhibits similar properities. A spool of antique twisted pair 20 ga. cotton insulated wire was used. The wire was labeled "LENZ ELECTRIC MFG. CO.", "RADIO AND SWITCHBOARD WIRE." The steel spool was 6.5" dia., 6" high with 2" inner dia. hollow steel core. It is estimated that there were appx. 750 turns of twisted pair, 1500 turns total. The spool was driven by a signal generator generating 548 kHz sin wave. The wavelegth was about 547 meters. The receiver was a battery powered portable radio tuned to 540 kHz, a local radio station. The frequency from 540 - 550 was swept and 548 was found to produce the most audible reponse. The radio was placed inside a cookie tin. The radio goes silent when placed inside the tin with the lid on. A 10 ohm current sensing resistor was used on the powered end of the coil, and a voltage probe placed on the opposing end of the coil. To improve the Faraday shielding over The bifilar coil experiment #1, the tin containing the radio was placed inside a heavy steel cabinet. The cabinet, now containing a high voltage DC power supply (off), was formerly an IBM 3274 controller cabinet, about a 2' x 2' x 1.5' heavy guage steel cabinet. The cabinet doors, as manufactured, are both ground strapped, and have contact brushes and contact plates on the unhinged sides to ensure good signal shielding. The cabinet is grounded through use of the ground wire to a three pronged receptical. The tin was placed inside the power supply cabinet, at distance of about 2.5 feet from the coil, 3.5 feet from the oscillator, both of which were placed on a 2"x10"x2' platform outside the grounded cabinet, at the level of the tin. The voltage probe was placed at the oscillator output lead. The current sensing resistor was placed right after the ground lead from the oscillator. With the coil in a normal bifilar configuration, the current sense voltage was 546 mV RMS, so the current was about 54.6 mA RMS. The output voltage was 5.45 Vrms. Call this the closed circuit configuration. To check the capacitive/inductive linkage in the coil, vs conductive linkage, the two sides of the twisted pair were disconnected at the far end of the coil, eliminating any conductive linkage. With the coil in a nonconductive configuration, the current sense voltage was 485 mV RMS, so the current was about 48.5 mA RMS. The output voltage was 5.75 Vrms. Call this the open circuit configuration. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 6/5/98 I was experimenting with a custom built RF receiver, driving it with a bifilar coil with a from 1 to 20 MHz square wave, when I discovered, via a loud buzz noise followed by much hostility and abuse from the family, that I was interfering significantly with both TV picture and sound a couple rooms away. 8^) I did mangage to pin down the frequency of most interference (to the channel they were watching) at about 9.1 MHz, before they discovered I was the cause. 8^) Using a square wave coincidentally produces a resonant ring in the coil/oscillator circuit at about 9 MHz, regardless of frequency of the square wave. Let's see. TV channels are 6 MHz wide, CH 2 is 54-60 MHz. That gives: CH. MHz == ======= 2 54-60 3 60-66 4 66-72 5 72-78 6 78-84 7 84-90 8 90-96 9 96-102 10 102-108 11 108-114 12 114-120 13 120-126 Is that right? If so, why the big reaction to a 9.1 MHz wave? I think they were watching CH 4, which is about 8 times 9 MHz. Hard to believe a 3 octave overtone was so effective. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Note - much discussion followed and is in the vortex archives. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 10:06 PM 6/4/98, ehammond@pacbell.net wrote: >Try putting ferrite magnets in center of coil. A magnetic core for the bifilar coil was made by taping together 38 round ceramic or ferrite magnets. Not certain what they are made of, but it is a hard brittle black ferrite looking type material, typical of refrigerator magnets. The magnet dimensions: 11/16" dia., 1/5" thick. This made a 11/16" dia., 7 5/8" long core that fit nicely into the 3/4" holes. When calibrated so the beep sound matched the station volume, actually slightly exceeded the station volume, a negative result was still obtained. All sound completely disappeared when the lid was placed on the cookie tin, covering the radio. There might have been some changes in signal strength based on coil orientation, but the changes were subtle, and not worth pursuing due to the fact the waves did not penetrate the shielding at all. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 12:03:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA29938; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:01:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:01:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:00:36 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Jeffrey Satinover Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"DJkG7.0.bJ7.ylo0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51054 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I would like to call your attention to the website of this man, he is an MD who is just finishing a PhD in physics. http://www.satinover.com .The link, Physics, opens onto a page with an ad for his book and before that a paper on his interests in physics. I'm hoping that one of you can answer the following questions: What is a qubit? What are supersymmertic oscillator circuits? What does the Star-Rich detector detect? What is quantum computation? I was particularly amused by the article Is Liberalism a form of brain damage? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 12:14:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA04581; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:12:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:12:10 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030702201117.006a7774@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:11:17 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"IQSFe3.0.T71.Awo0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51055 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My apologies Dr.Heffner. It wasn't intended to be a trick question. I only specified squares of a surface element because it seemed to be the easiest way to explain how the gyros were positioned in relation to each other. Let's rephrase my question. Say, that there are n CCW gyros (counter clock-wise gyros and n CW gyros (clockwise gyros) distributed in alternate frames of a Buckminster-Fuller geodesic dome (or perhaps I should say quasi-sphere)when n is such a large number that for all practical purposes it can be treated as a sphere. Now I imagine, perhaps quite wrongly, that any twisting tendency of a CW gyro would be counteracted by the twisting tendency of its CCW neighbour and that the net result would be that the rotational inertia of the shell of fixed gyros would be the same when the gyros are running as when they are stationary. I presume therefore that when such a sphere is rotated, all, what I (as a tyro in such matters} might describe as the characteristic twisty forces of the gyros will be absorbed by strain energy in the framework in which they are fixed. I imagine that theory will give an answer to this question. Am I mistaken? One reason I ask is because, if true, such a structure would exhibit an interesting property. However, there is no point in discussing that property if my assumption is incorrect. Hence the reason for soliciting your obvious expertise on the matter. Frank > >> >>Suppose we have a spherical black box with a shell of numerous gyros >>just under the surface. The gyros are fixed in a suitable frame so that >>their axes of rotation point towards the centre of the sphere. >>Half the gyros on the white squares of each checker board pattern surface >>element rotate CW and the other half on the black squares rotate CCW. > > >What is this game, stump the panelist? This is a trick question! 8^) You >can't tile a spherical surface with "numerous" squares, unless 8 qualifies >as numerous, and they aren't really squares. The only regular polyhedron >which will fill what appears to be your intended goal is the cube, which >can be inscribed within the sphere. In that case the angular momentum >vectors from gyros on opposite corners of the cube *reinforce*. The result >will be the same as a gyro having the vector sum of the 8 angular momenta, >or 4 gyros with twice the angular momentum aligned on the 4 diagonals of >the cube. > > > >> >>Now as I understand you, an external observer asked to rotate this sphere >>would feel no difference in resistance to rotation between the state >>where the gyros were stationary and the gyros were running. I am of course >>assuming perfect gyros and an indefinitely stiff, indefinitely strong frame. >> >>Is that correct, please? :-) > > >The emoticon above is because this is a practical joke? 8^) > >The straight answer is no, that is incorrect. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 12:32:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA18547; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:25:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:25:16 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:29:48 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"DsHTP.0.eX4.R6p0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51056 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:41 AM 7/2/3, Grimer wrote: >Suppose we have a spherical black box with a shell of numerous gyros >just under the surface. The gyros are fixed in a suitable frame so that >their axes of rotation point towards the centre of the sphere. >Half the gyros on the white squares of each checker board pattern surface >element rotate CW and the other half on the black squares rotate CCW. >Now as I understand you, an external observer asked to rotate this sphere >would feel no difference in resistance to rotation between the state >where the gyros were stationary and the gyros were running. I am of course >assuming perfect gyros and an indefinitely stiff, indefinitely strong frame. > >Is that correct, please? :-) I wrote: "The straight answer is no, that is incorrect." While that is true in general, in the special case involving the symmetries of the cube, where the net angular momentum on the cube diagonals *does* sum to zero, that answer is correct, with the real world caveat that the gyros will likely be felt or heard straining. It would be a difficult experiment to pull off though, getting even the scalar value of each of the gyro's angular momentums all the same. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 12:34:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25676; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:30:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"NGN0v3.0.kG6.57p0_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51057 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:11 PM 7/2/3, Grimer wrote: >My apologies Dr.Heffner. No doctor here! As I think you know form mutal discussion with Fred, I am strictly an amateur. My only college level physics is a one quarter freshmen level class in mechanics in 1962. That doesn't necessarily mean I am stupid or inexperienced, however. >I imagine that theory will give an answer to this question. >Am I mistaken? No, that is correct. > >One reason I ask is because, if true, such a structure would exhibit an >interesting property. However, there is no point in discussing that property >if my assumption is incorrect. Hence the reason for soliciting your obvious >expertise on the matter. Not much expertise, but, oh, OK. My apologies. I thought it was a trick question. I wrote: "The straight answer is no, that is incorrect." While that is true in general for the question as asked, in the special case involving the symmetries of the cube, where the net angular momentum on the cube diagonals *does* sum to zero, that answer is correct, with the real world caveat that the gyros will likely be felt or heard straining. It would be a difficult experiment to pull off, getting even the scalar value of each of the gyro's angular momentums all the same, or even measuring them while an experiment were in progress. As soon as precessional strain is imparted to the bearings the gyros will slow down at differing rates. So, what is the useful property? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 13:06:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA25887; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:03:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:03:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3F033AA0.8070307@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:03:44 -0400 From: Steve Lawrence User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jeffrey Satinover References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d9Wcd1.0.LK6.2gp0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51058 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > I'm hoping that one of you can > answer the following questions: What is a qubit? IIRC, it's a fundamental unit of computation that can take on four values, instead of two. At any rate, that's the basic idea. I think it may also refer to the unit of computation used in a quantum computer. Others with better memories or more knowledge may want to clarify this -- or you could just type it into Google... [Dunno about the next several, then...] > What is quantum computation? As I understand it, and in very general terms, the idea is to build an ANALOG computer which uses as its computing element a small collection of particles in very carefully selected quantum states. The initial conditions of the particles encode the problem to be solved. The system rapidly (in linear or constant time) evolves into a new state (which the researcher could not predict a priori!), and the final state of the system encodes the answer. The set of problems that can be solved this way might be rather limited. HOWEVER, the set may include at least one NP-complete problem. Since all NP-complete problems are equivalent (by definition) this would provide a way of solving a whole class of problems in linear time which currently require exponential time. For the class of problems to which it can be applied, the difference in speed between a quantum computer and a conventional digital computer will be so large that it will not be possible to express it meaningfully as a ratio: when you divide an exponential by any polynomial you get back an exponential which grows about as fast as the original function (as n -> infinity, anyway). I have no idea if this will ever actually work, but if it does, it will be totally revolutionary. For anyone who doesn't know this bit of jargon, an "NP-complete" problem is one whose solution takes time exponential in the size of the input dataset (~ exp(N)) and which is provably convertible to any other member of the class of "NP-complete" problems. A surprising number of problems fall into the class, including the traveling salesman problem, and also including a bunch of things that have to do with password cracking. The Pentagon won't like it if this class of problems is "solved", I suspect. > I was particularly amused by the article Is Liberalism a form of brain > damage? The answer to that one's "no". For that matter, any other opinion that can be held as a result of reasoning from necessarily incomplete data about the real world would also certainly not be a form of brain damage -- even opinions that are at the opposite end of the spectrum from mine... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 13:35:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA10482; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:33:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:33:09 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:37:38 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"hbfDI.0.gZ2.56q0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51059 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:11 PM 7/2/3, Grimer wrote: >One reason I ask is because, if true, such a structure would exhibit an >interesting property. However, there is no point in discussing that property >if my assumption is incorrect. Hence the reason for soliciting your obvious >expertise on the matter. Would two gyros each rotating in opposite directions, net angular momentum zero, on the same shaft meet your needs? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 14:03:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA22927; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:01:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:01:47 -0700 Message-ID: <20030702210138.12981.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:01:38 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Jeffrey Satinover To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F033AA0.8070307@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"y7--62.0.7c5.xWq0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51060 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: however, it can be considered a sign of insanity. at least, if what passes for republican thought is sane, call me crrrraaazzzyyy. > > > I was particularly amused by the article Is > Liberalism a form of brain > > damage? > > The answer to that one's "no". > > For that matter, any other opinion that can be held > as a result of reasoning from > necessarily incomplete data about the real world > would also certainly not be a form > of brain damage -- even opinions that are at the > opposite end of the spectrum from > mine... > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 14:11:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA28293; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:09:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:09:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:13:28 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SR applied to circular currents Resent-Message-ID: <"gZHq-1.0.Uv6.idq0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51061 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:33 PM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: >but the gist of it seems to be that a substance under >the force of a magnetic field, on an atomic level, the >"probability clouds" where one finds electrons gets >bent into a pancake shape, changing the bonding >orbitals. this would account for the temporary >magnetization of things, the generation of a magnetic >field from run electricity trough something, and the >fact that some things are magnetic and others not, >based proabably on positive internal charge (number of >protons, ie atomic number) and on valence >configuration. unless i completely missed >something.... Well, there are really two kinds of "pancaking" discussed, but only one of them is actually called pancaking in the literature. The squishing of electron orbitals in an extreme magneitc field is not really called pancaking. It is merley an effect that I called upon to demonstrate to show the conditions to create the subject SR effect might be crearted in nature. I think a similar effect could even distort the neutron itself and produce a single particle which exhibits a different apparent charge fromt he pole than from the sides. When you integrate the apparent charge around the surface of a sphere centered on the particle, however, you still get zero charge, thus charge is preserved. The relativistic pancaking in the literature refers to the fact that near light speed charged particles appear to have their fields buched up in the direction of travel. What I have done is show that this effect applied to balanced charges, but with one polarity of charge in circular motion about the other, produces a very unusual apparent charge depending on location of the observer. The most interesting aspect of this field is the fact that energy is not preserved. A particle attracted in the equatorial plane is repelled in the polar plane. There is thus a cycle available to create limitless free energy. It acts like Nicholas Reiter's special turbine discussed a few posts ago in a different thread. A coil winding, especially a superconductor, placed in such a path would be a brushless DC generator producing power out with no power in. Though it is mostly in the vortex archives, I did not give you, as Paul Harvey would say, "the rest of the story", because the test results were negative. I only gave you what I think is true. I extended the theory by applying corrective terms based on the effects of acceleration, as described in *Classical Electromagnetism via Relativity,* Plenum Press, 1968, W. G. V. Rosser. This showed an even larger effect. Frank Stenger (a long time vort, but usually off-list now) tested for the expected effect. None was found, but a complete test of the general SR principles requires use of superconducting materials. For anyone actually still interested, a more complete story follows: Planar Circular Currents BACKGROUND AND ASSUMPTIONS It is well known that special relativity predicts changes in the observed field of a particle due to the flattening of the field in the direction of motion. This flattening is due to application of the Lorentz contraction due to relative motion. This relativistic effect of flattening the apparent field is called the "pancaking" of the Coulombic field. It is the intent here to discuss the effects of pancaking with respect to planar circular direct currents. On p.492 of *The Electromagnetic Field*, Albert Shadowitz provides the equation for relativistic (Coulombic) field pancaking as: E = Q/(4 Pi e0 r^2) (1 - (v^2/c^2))/(1 - (v^2/c^2) sin^2 theta)^(3/2) If we let b = v^2/c^2 then we can interpret apparent charge Q' to be: Q' = Q (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) which can be interpreted to mean apparent charge is reduced to observers in line with the charge velocity vector and increased as the viewing angle is increased. NOTE - it is not standard physics to interpret pancaking as a change in apparent charge (standard relativity assumes charge is invariant with velocity) but rather a change in observed field strength, but we should be able to interpret the pancaking equation for Q' either way. Consider the Bohr model of the atom where the electrons whiz around a nucleus. Specific electrons present some degree of pancaking from any angle viewed. In some directions apparent charge is increased and some directions decreased. In a non-magnetic medium, the polar orientation of atom orbitals is mixed in a uniform way due to the orientation of atoms being mixed in a uniform way. Upon integration over 3D polar coordinates, one finds that the average net charge change, according to the pancaking equation, for randomly oriented atoms and orbitals, is zero. However, the conditions examined here differ from those of an atom not in the presence of ambient electronmagnetic fields, as do the resulting forces. ANALYSIS OF THE RELATIVISTIC PANCAKING EFFECT If some set of orbitals are aligned, say by a magnetic field, or if we have the case of a planar circular current in a conductor, a neutral medium, then the average apparent charge (as viewed from a long enough distance to make the circle diameter insignificant) does not net out to zero, except at a specific viewing angle. As viewed within the plane, pancaking reduces the apparent charge of charges in motion, and increases the apparent charge of charges in circular motion as viewed from the poles of the circular motion. The net apparent charge of a charge moving in a small circle relative to the distance of the viewer comes from integrating to find the average value of: k(theta,v) = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) for theta = 0 to 2Pi, where b = v^2/c^2, and then subtracting the average value from one to obtain the net charge change factor K(v), because if v = 0 then the observed (apparent) charge Q' is the same as the charge Q: Q' = Q * 1 If the average value of k(theta,v) is non-zero, when integrated over all angles theta, for v not 0, then an average apparent net charge exists when v not 0. The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is given by: f_avg(x) = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ f(x) dx ] so the value of net charge change factor K(v) = 1 - [average over theta of k(theta,v)] is given by: K(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] which requires solving an elliptic integral of the second kind, and yields a net charge: Q_net = K(v) Q where K(v) can be approximately based on the average speed of the electrons. Note that in the 3D situation the averaging integral equivalent to the above would be [Integral from 0 to Pi] [k(theta) sin(theta) d theta] because it is necessary to average over theta with a weight of sin(theta) to account for the surface area involved. This integral evaluates to one, thus K(v) evaluates to zero. However, in the planar version, K(v) does not average to zero. NUMERICAL APPROXIMATION OF THE PANCAKING EFFECT The average values k_avg(v) of k(theta,v) for random planar orientations as viewed from the plane were directly calculated by computer program, thus producing the incremental force factor: K(v) = 1 - k_avg(v) over a complete circle, for theta = 0 to 2 Pi. Results for various values of v/c are shown in Table 1: v/c K(v) .999999 0.363371045179493 .5 6.57845423323069D-02 .1 2.50470713873419D-03 .01 2.5000468772296D-05 .001 2.50000048662713D-07 .0001 2.50000153911856D-09 Table 1 - Direct numerical estimation of K(v) These factors indicate the possibility of huge apparent net charges, especially from electrons moving at the speed of k shell electrons (if such could be made to move in a planar orbit.). The innermost electrons of Fe have an ionization potential of 9277.69 eV, and Ni has 10775.40 eV. Using half the ionization potential of Ni as electron kinetic energy we obtain: 1/2 m_e v^2 = (10775.4 eV)/2 = 8.63 J v = 4.35x10^7 m/s v = 0.145 c so more than 0.25 percent of the total charge for such electrons would appear as net apparent positive charge in the atom, if a sufficiently strong magnetic field could be applied so as to make K shell orbitals nearly flat (an astronomical magnitude magnetic field to be sure!) ANALYTICAL SOLUTION USING MATHEMATICA In order to obtain an exact form of the integral, Mathematica was used to integrate the pancake function obtaining a finite integral. Unfortunately a complete elliptic integral of the second kind appears in the solution. The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is given by: f_avg = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ f(x) dx ] so the value of net charge change factor K_incr(v) = 1 - k_avg is given by: K_incr(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] Mathematica says: [integral from 0 to 2 Pi] [ (1 - b sin^2 theta)^(-3/2) d theta] is given by: -(EllipticE[x, b]/(-1 + b)) + (b*Sin[2*x])/(Sqrt[2]*(-1 + b)* Sqrt[2 - b + b*Cos[2*x]]) which, when evaluated from 0 to 2 Pi, is -4(EllipticE[b])/(b-1) where EllipticE[b] is a complete elliptic integral of the second kind. So: K(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] = 1 - 1/(2 Pi) (1-b) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi] [ (1 - b sin^2 theta)^(-3/2) d theta] = 1 - 1/(2 Pi) (1-b) (-4(EllipticE[b])/(b-1)) = 1 - 4/(2 Pi) EllipticE[b] K(v) = 1 - 2 Pi EllipticE[v^2/c^2] or more appropriately: K(v) = 1 - 2 Pi EllipticE[v^2/c^2] Through use of Mathematica, the following confirming values of K(v) were obtained: Mathematica evaluation of K(v) = v/c K(v) 1 - 2 EllipticE[(v/c)^2]/Pi .999999 0.363371045179493 0.363375 .5 6.57845423323069D-02 0.0657845 .1 2.50470713873419D-03 0.00250471 .01 2.5000468772296D-05 0.0000250005 .001 2.50000048662713D-07 2.5e-7 .0001 2.50000153911856D-09 2.5e-9 Table 2 Thus it appears there is some evidence for a predicted net apparent charge, when matter is viewed in a plane containing the matter and normal to the magnetic field, in both neutral condensed matter and plasmas, or even magnetron chambers, if a sufficient magnetic field is present. The fact that apparent charge does not manifest in condensed matter might be construed to confirm the QM view that the "electron is everywhere" in the wave function, or that it has no specific location until sampled. There is thus no radiation from atoms because the orbital electrons do not actually "move." Plasma electrons are not so constrained by the QM boundaries as electrons in atoms though. The upper bound on the possible effect is less, due to lower velocities, but still significant. It should be noted that this speculation so far ignores the effects of charge acceleration and general relativity effects. Now, to evaluate the integral giving k(b) for b = (v/c)^2, b small. Given the first few terms of EllipticE: EllipticE[b] = Pi/2 - (Pi b^2)/8 - (3 Pi b^2)/128 + ... we can evaluate the integral giving k(b) for b = (v/c)^2, b small: K(v) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[b]/Pi = 1 - 2 {1/2 - b/8 - 3 b^2/128} K(v) = b/4 + (3/64) (b^2) which is pretty good, and for many things K(v) = b/4 works OK too, or the series K(v) = (1/4) b + (3/64) (b^2) + (5/256) (b^3) + (175/16384) (b^4) + ... can be used to compute the degree of accuracy desired. It is interesting though, that: EllipticE[1] = 1 so, a limit to the effect is provided by: K(c) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[q]/Pi = 1 - 2/Pi = 0.363380227632 EXAMINATION OF THE PANCAKING EFFECT Let's assume uniform circular motion, i.e. DC current, in a charge balanced medium. It is commonly assumed there is then no induction. However, it is often stated that accelerating charges produce fields, so perhaps the uniform acceleration of charges about the circle produce a field that precisely cancels the pancake effect field computed above. This would be a very unusual field that uniform charge acceleration about the circle must produce if it exactly cancels the special relativistic (SR) Coulomb field of a circle current, which is non-conservative. Given the SR Coulombic field pancaking equation and b = v^2/c^2, we have: k(theta) = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) At theta = 90 deg we have: k(Pi/2) = (1 - b)(1 - b)^(-3/2) = (1 - b)^(-1/2) = gamma(v) which represents an apparent charge increase for every charge as viewed from a point on the major axis and distant from the circle. The charge motion, from the polar vantage point, is viewed from the "side" at approximately 90 degrees. At theta = 0 deg. we have: K(v) = b/2 + ... which represents an apparent charge decrease. Using q' to designate the apparent charge observed for an actual current bearing charge q, this gives the following picture from the perspective of the velocity dependent SR field component: q' = q * gamma (q' > q) (-) N | | (+) o | x (+) q' = q * K(v) (q' < q) | | S Magnetic Poles (-) o - current out of page (electrons into page) x - current into page (electrons out of page) (+) - positive net apparent charge (-) - negative net apparent charge Fig. 1 - Diagram of SR based Coulombic field Note that, because the proposed current is carried by electrons moving within a positive medium, that the field is positive to the sides. If the current were carried by positive charge, the SR Coulombic field would be reversed. EFFECTS OF CHARGE ACCELERATION Next, it is necessary to consider the special relativistic effects of acceleration. In *Classical Electromagnetism via Relativity,* Plenum Press, 1968, W. G. V. Rosser develops (p. 272 ff) a proof that the field from a closed circuit, ignoring radiation fields, is zero. Rosser utilizes the following SR based equations for his proof: E = Ev + Ea Ev = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3) [r - r u/c][1 - v^2/c^2] Ea = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3 c^2) {r x ([r - r u/c] x [a])} s = [r - (r dot u)/c] where r, u, and a are vectors. Earlier in the text (p. 252) Rosser credits the above equations to Frisch and Wilets (Amer. J. Phys. 24(1956) p.574.) The above equations are not approximations and are consistent with the Maxwell-Heaviside equations. Rosser only actually proves his case for a specific circuit which has sharp bends, but assumes the bends are not significant because the accelerations involved are not large (apparently due to the fact the electron velocity is slow in wires ) This seems to be a flawed approach and also as immaterial to high velocity situations, like those found in stars. Further, Rosser's proof has the glaring limitation that it only shows a netting to zero in the plane of his special circuit, which consists of two (radial from the point of observation) straight lines and two arcs centered on the point of observation. Even if Rosser's proof is assumed to be correct in general, to the level of accuracy he produces, and even if the apparent charge is assumed to net to zero in the plane of the circuit, a non-conservative field appears when we look at the ramifications of the Ea equation in the polar regions of Fig. 1. Rosser shows (p. 276) that the formula for Ea implies: Ea ~= -q/(4 Pi e0 c^2) [a_perp]/[r] where [a_perp] is the component vector of vector [a] that is perpendicular to vector [r]. Using scalar centripital acceleration a = v^2/r to estimate the Coulombic field at points on the central polar axis distant from the current ring, we obtain: Ea ~= -q/(4 Pi e0 c^2) (v^2/r)/(r) = -q/(4 Pi e0 r^2) (v^2/c^2) and we obtain an apparent charge factor of -v^2/c^2 = -b due to the acceleration component of the polar Coulombic field. Now, clearly , -b does not exactly, at every v, offset the charge factor: gamma(v) = (1-b)^(-1/2) obtained using the standard SR field pancaking equation. We are left with an apparent net charge at the poles of: q' = q [(1-b)^(-1/2) - b] If this is true, then a field is predicted which is not energy conservative. A path from the polar region to a distant point on the plane of the circular current, to a near point on the plane, and back to the polar region, gains a fixed increment of energy. Call [(1-b)^(-1/2) - b] the net relativistic polar apparent charge factor Fp(v). Table 1 provides a quick look at various evaluations of Fp(v). b gamma(v) Fp(v) Incr., 1-Fp(v) v/c (v/c)^2 1/(1-b)^.5 1/(1-b)^.5-b 1-1/(1-b)^.5+b 0.0000 0 1 1 0 0.0001 0.00000001 1 0.99999999 1E-08 0.0010 0.000001 1 0.999999 9.99999E-07 0.0100 0.0001 1.000000005 0.999900005 9.9995E-05 0.1000 0.01 1.000050004 0.990050004 0.009949996 0.2000 0.04 1.000800961 0.960800961 0.039199039 0.5000 0.25 1.032795559 0.782795559 0.217204441 0.6000 0.36 1.071866157 0.711866157 0.288133843 0.7000 0.49 1.147154143 0.657154143 0.342845857 0.9000 0.81 1.70523372 0.89523372 0.10476628 0.9900 0.9801 5.037672145 4.057572145 -3.057572145 0.9990 0.998001 15.82325228 14.82525128 -13.82525128 0.9999 0.99980001 50.00375017 49.00395016 -48.00395016 Table 1 - Tabulation of Polar Apparent Charge Factors Note that the slope of Fp(b) near b=0, is given by: d/db Fp(b) = 1/(2(1-b)^(3/2)) - 1 which for b very small evaluates to roughly -1/2. Therefore, the incremental charge Q'(b) in a neutral planar circular conductor, for b very small is roughly: Q'(b) = b/2 Q = Q [v^2/(2c^2)] = [Q/(2c^2)] v^2. This addition of an apparent charge, proportional to v^2, to a neutral circular planar conductor, implies that if that neutral conductor is spun about its major axis in the direction of current flow, that the net polar apparent charge will increase. If the drift velocity is v_drift and the rim velocity is v, then the two current net polar charge factor will be: F_net(v,v_drift) = [1/(2c^2)] (v+v_drift)^2 - [Q/(2c^2)] (v)^2 F_net(v,v_drift) = [2 v v_drift + v_drift^2]/(2c^2) and since v_drift is typically under 1 mm/sec, and v can be many meters per second, a gain in the polar charge of at least 4 orders of magnitude can obtained by rotating the current carrier about its axis. SOME POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES It might be conjectured at this point that the Podkletnov antigravity experiment that NASA has been replicating, which uses a current carrying levitated spinning superconducting ring, does not show any artificial gravity because NASA is using a sensitive gravitometer. The field predicted looking at the pancake effect is electrostatic. Such a field might achieve the effect Podkletnov first noticed, namely that smoke rose above the spinning superconducting disk. It may be that the smoke particles were somewhat ionized. However, all the antigravity effects reported by Podkletnov can not be justified by the means discussed here, because the suggested electrostatic field would induce attracting charges on neutral objects. It is of interest that, due to the Faraday ice pail effect, shielding for the suggested force, which is electrostatic in nature, can not be easily achieved. The numbers can be significant for current carrying masses spinning at very high velocities, and in cases where very strong magnetic fields are involved and thus affecting atomic structure and alignment, and might provide an explanation for polar jets observed for fast spinning astronomical objects. In addition, a net anti-gravitational force from flat galaxies, or more specifically from aligned spinning structures within them, is predicted by the proposed theory. It is of further interest that if the proposed potential exists then conservation of energy is violated, free energy devices can be made. A SMALL TEST CASE Let's First look at a specific and mundane case readily tested by amateur means. Copper density is 8.96 g/cm^3 at 300 K, and atomic weight is 63.546. Avogadro's number is 6.0221x10^23 atoms/mole. There is thus 8.96 * 6.0221x10^23 /63.546 = 8.49x10^22 atoms per cm^3 of copper. This is also the approximately number of conduction band electrons per cm^3. If we assume a 7 cm radius disk spinning at 1800 rpm, or 30 rps, we obtain about a 13.2 m/s rim velocity. Assume the perimeter of the disk is wrapped with 140 turns, or 6160 cm of 0.02846 in, 0.0723 cm dia., No. 21 copper wire, carrying 1 amp DC. This wire has a cross sectional area of 0.0164 cm^2, or 1.64 mm^2. Total wire volume is (0.0164 cm^2)(6160 cm) = 101 cm^3. This wire has 13.05 ohms per 100 ft., or .428 ohms/meter. Total resistance is thus estimated at (.428 ohms/meter)(6160 cm) = 26.3 ohms, thus the wire is driven at 26.3 volts to achieve the 1 amp current. The 101 cm^3 of wire has a total (8.49x10^22 atoms per cm^3)(101 cm^3) = 8.57x10^24 conduction band electrons. There are thus (8.57x10^24 electrons)/(6160 cm) = 1.39x10^21 electrons/cm of wire. We have a current of 1.0 amps in the wire, or 1.0 coulomb/second. There is 1/q_e = 6.2415x10^18 electrons/coulomb, giving 6.2415x10^19 electrons/sec flowing in the wire. The electrons thus move at (6.24x10^19 electrons/sec)/{1.39x10^21 electrons/cm) = 0.0449 cm/sec, so: v_drift = 4.49x10^-4 m/sec We have about 8.57x10^24 conduction band electrons carrying the current so at 6.24x10^18 electrons/coulomb we have: Q = 1.37 x 10^6 coulombs carrying the current, so since: F_net(v,v_drift) = [2 v v_drift + v_drift^2]/(2c^2) Q' = Q [2 v v_drift + v_drift^2]/(2c^2) Q' = (1.37x10^6 coul.) [ 2 (13.2 m/s) (4.49x10^-4 m/sec) + (4.49x10^-4 m/sec)^2]/(1.8x10^17 m^2/s^2) ] = (1.37x10^6 coul.)(6.59x10^-20) Q' = 2.71x10^-14 coul. If we had a test charge of 1 coul. at a distance of 1 m from the spinning coil, and lying on its axis, we would have a force: F = [1/(4 Pi epsilon_0)] Q1 Q2/r^2 = [1/(4 Pi (8.85x10^12 F/m)](1 coul.)(2.71x10^-14 coul.)/(1 m)^2 F = 2.44x10^-4 N giving a field strength of: E = 2.44x10^-4 N/coul. = 2.44x10^-4 volts/meter which might be barely usable, but would be readily detected by use of a very low resistance loop. In that the field is non-conservative, it may be of sufficient magnitude to be of some utility if used with a superconducting current loop, or big cross section copper loop, wrapped about a magnetic core, but the back emf of the magnetic field building in the conductor would prohibit much power from being extracted. The power to drive the device is about 26 watts, plus maybe another 20-180 watts to drive the motor. However, a spinning superconductor could be used for the primary, and that would take almost no power except cooling. Suppose we could get 2 mV out of a 2 m triangular secondary current loop (the potential gain is higher near the rotating primary loop) and we have a copper conductor with a cross section of 144 cm^2, or 22.3 in^2. Copper has a conductivity of 4.01x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1, so the conductor has conductivity of (144 cm^2)(4.01x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1) = 5.77x10^8 cm ohm^1, or a resistance of 1.73x10^-9 ohm/cm. Using 600 cm for a length we have a total resistance of (1.73x10^-9 ohm/cm)(600 cm) = 1.03x10^-6 ohm. We would thus have a current I = E/R of (.002 V)/(1.03x10^-6 ohm) = 1940 amps, which is of course readily detectable. The heat output would be a mere (0.002 V)(1940 amps) = 3.88 watts. A practical device might be made by using very high speed rotating superconductor(s) carrying lots of current. If a 2000 amp carrying superconductor rotating at 18000 rpm is used, then the power output jumps to 388 watts. A variation is to drive the primary with A/C. The secondary would then be driven at (0.002 V) (1940 amps) = 3.88 watts A/C. It could be used to drive a transformer primary in order to drive a secondary at 3.88 watts and the voltage desired. Upping the rpms to 18,000 would produce about 38.8 watts, which would be above theoretical break-even if frictionless brushes and low friction bearings were used. SCALING UP By using supercooled aluminum wire, the conductivity can be increased by a factor of 10^5. This means the current can be increased by a factor of 10^(5/2) = 316 and still maintain the same I^2 R heat dissipation, and electron drift velocity v_drift can also be increased by a factor of 316. The drift velocity could be about (4.49x10^-4 m/s)(316) = 0.1419 m/s. Assuming a rim velocity of (60 rps)(1m)(Pi) = 188 m/s, the performance per turn can be compared to the small proof of concept experiment by: perf = F_net(188 m/s,0.1419 m/s) / F_net(188 m/s,4.49x10^-4 m/s) = [2 (188 m/s) (0.1419 m/s) + (0.1419 m/s)^2] / [2 (13.2 m/s) (4.49x10^-4 m/sec) + (4.49x10^-4 m/s)^2] = (53.4 m^2/s^2) / (.1186 m^2/s^2) = 450 The coil cross section can be increased from about 1 in^2 to about 100 in^2, thus giving another 100 fold increase in number of turns, and a total ampere-turns multiplier of 100*316 = 31600. The computed field strength of about 2.44x10^-4 volts/meter for the experiment then becomes (2.44x10^-4 v/m) * 31600 * 450 = 347 v/m, spread out over an area of about 3 m^2. A special triangular coil of cross section 3 m can length 3m to a side can then gain about (347 + 1/4 (347) + 1/9(347)) V/turn = 472 volts/turn. Assuming 100 turns that is 47.2 kV output, with a conductor cross section of 3 m^2/100 = 300 cm^2. Assuming the secondary is driven at a mere 1000 A/cm^2, with half the cross section taken up by winding space and insulation, that is (300 cm^2)*(1000 A/cm^2) = 30 kamps at 47.2 kV, or 1.42 GW. This indicates a very practical output. This is by far the most commercial idea, if proven feasible experimentally, even if it disappointingly does not result in the hoped for inertial drive. The proof of principle experiment was to take 140 turns of 1 amp. The proposed practical device armature has 14000 turns at 316 A/turn, therefore has total amp turns of (14000 turns)(316 amps/turn) = 4.42 mega-amp-turns in a coil of radius 1 m, and a 10 inch by 10 inch cross section, or 25.4 cm square cross section. It may not be feasible to hold this together. However, major offsetting gains in performance can be had by supercooling the secondary coil, and by increasing the area of the rotating coil, which then permits a much larger secondary coil, both in area and acceleration length, and reduces the magnetic pressure on the rotating coil. The coil cross section can be made thinner and wider, so structural support can be beefed up around it. The coil would actually consist of a series of concentric coils with structural support and cooling conduits interlaced between them. Using a seat of the pants number of about .7 N for 1000 amps. for the 1m radius coil hoop force, that force is increased by the square of the ratio of the amperages, (4.42x10^6/10^3)^2 or about 1.954x10^7, giving a force of 8.37x10^7 N, or 1.882x10^7 lbf, or about 9410 tons force between two halves of the proposed coil. Too much. At a 1m radius, or 6.28 m, that is about 75 inches perimeter giving a lateral force of about 213 tons/inch. Centrifugal force has to be added to that too. An FEA simulation of the 1 m diameter coil (to the conductor cross section midline) with 23.4 cm square conductor carrying 4,420,000 amps was run. The half hoop force was 1.267x10^7 N, or 2.85x10^6 lbs, or 1424 tons. The field strength at the conductor midline was a modest 1.27 T, seemingly not out of the ordinary to contain, even rotating. However, the iLB force of 1.426 N/inch, or 32,000 lbs/in. This is difficult considering the need for cooling and the fact the coil also needs to rotate. There is considerable room for design adjustment, and at the anticipated power output, much leeway in cost. Earlier, for the proof of principle experiment, it was assumed a secondary coil would reside only on one side of the rotating primary. However, a duplicate secondary (stator coil) can be placed on the other side of the rotating primary, thus doubling the output. Also, by adding another meter to the radius, the current and thus the power output of the secondary is quadrupled, or the primary current can be correspondingly reduced. If feasible, superconducting wire would be useful for the spinning primary coil from a couple aspects. One is cooling would not be a function of current, and another would be that the insulation is actually metal, and thus much more resistant to stress than plastic or rubber at cryogenic temperatures. There is no apparent way that a back e.m.f can be generated, but superconducting wire must be tested to see if a back e.m.f. somehow is generated. Unfortunately, a couple meter diameter superconducting coil would cost fairly big dollars, but nothing like a nuclear plant. Unless there is a significant mistake, and provided the basic principle stands the experimental test, it should be feasible to put a GW plant in a box about 10 meters to a side. TEST RESULTS A test using copper conductors was conducted by Frank Stenger in 2001. The results were negative. It is my belief that the formula changes applied due to acceleration are incorrect. A thorough test of principle, however, requires use of a superconducting secondary coil. In such a case a spontaneously increasing magnetic field in the superconductor would be evidence for the expected field. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 14:24:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA02968; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:21:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:21:15 -0700 Message-ID: <20030702212110.16036.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:21:10 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: SR applied to circular currents To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"VZTCe.0.Ek.Bpq0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51062 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i read up to the excerpt, i'd read the rest when i get home. still, the fact that magnetic fields change the orbital shapes, while not surprising, now that i think aobut it, is definately not something one learns in chem class.... hm. i wonder how that would effect A(e) for some rxn's ??? i gotta experiment with this... --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 7:33 PM 7/1/3, alexander hollins wrote: > > >but the gist of it seems to be that a substance > under > >the force of a magnetic field, on an atomic level, > the > >"probability clouds" where one finds electrons gets > >bent into a pancake shape, changing the bonding > >orbitals. this would account for the temporary > >magnetization of things, the generation of a > magnetic > >field from run electricity trough something, and > the > >fact that some things are magnetic and others not, > >based proabably on positive internal charge (number > of > >protons, ie atomic number) and on valence > >configuration. unless i completely missed > >something.... > > Well, there are really two kinds of "pancaking" > discussed, but only one of > them is actually called pancaking in the literature. > The squishing of > electron orbitals in an extreme magneitc field is > not really called > pancaking. It is merley an effect that I called > upon to demonstrate to > show the conditions to create the subject SR effect > might be crearted in > nature. I think a similar effect could even distort > the neutron itself and > produce a single particle which exhibits a different > apparent charge fromt > he pole than from the sides. When you integrate the > apparent charge around > the surface of a sphere centered on the particle, > however, you still get > zero charge, thus charge is preserved. > > The relativistic pancaking in the literature refers > to the fact that near > light speed charged particles appear to have their > fields buched up in the > direction of travel. What I have done is show that > this effect applied to > balanced charges, but with one polarity of charge in > circular motion about > the other, produces a very unusual apparent charge > depending on location of > the observer. > > The most interesting aspect of this field is the > fact that energy is not > preserved. A particle attracted in the equatorial > plane is repelled in the > polar plane. There is thus a cycle available to > create limitless free > energy. It acts like Nicholas Reiter's special > turbine discussed a few > posts ago in a different thread. A coil winding, > especially a > superconductor, placed in such a path would be a > brushless DC generator > producing power out with no power in. Though it is > mostly in the vortex > archives, I did not give you, as Paul Harvey would > say, "the rest of the > story", because the test results were negative. I > only gave you what I > think is true. > > I extended the theory by applying corrective terms > based on the effects of > acceleration, as described in *Classical > Electromagnetism via Relativity,* > Plenum Press, 1968, W. G. V. Rosser. This showed an > even larger effect. > Frank Stenger (a long time vort, but usually > off-list now) tested for the > expected effect. None was found, but a complete > test of the general SR > principles requires use of superconducting > materials. > > For anyone actually still interested, a more > complete story follows: > > Planar Circular Currents > > BACKGROUND AND ASSUMPTIONS > > It is well known that special relativity predicts > changes in the observed > field of a particle due to the flattening of the > field in the direction of > motion. This flattening is due to application of > the Lorentz contraction > due to relative motion. This relativistic effect of > flattening the > apparent field is called the "pancaking" of the > Coulombic field. It is the > intent here to discuss the effects of pancaking with > respect to planar > circular direct currents. > > On p.492 of *The Electromagnetic Field*, Albert > Shadowitz provides the > equation for relativistic (Coulombic) field > pancaking as: > > E = Q/(4 Pi e0 r^2) (1 - (v^2/c^2))/(1 - > (v^2/c^2) sin^2 theta)^(3/2) > > If we let b = v^2/c^2 then we can interpret apparent > charge Q' to be: > > Q' = Q (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) > > which can be interpreted to mean apparent charge is > reduced to observers in > line with the charge velocity vector and increased > as the viewing angle is > increased. > > NOTE - it is not standard physics to interpret > pancaking as a change in > apparent charge (standard relativity assumes charge > is invariant with > velocity) but rather a change in observed field > strength, but we should be > able to interpret the pancaking equation for Q' > either way. > > Consider the Bohr model of the atom where the > electrons whiz around a > nucleus. Specific electrons present some degree of > pancaking from any angle > viewed. In some directions apparent charge is > increased and some > directions decreased. In a non-magnetic medium, the > polar orientation of > atom orbitals is mixed in a uniform way due to the > orientation of atoms > being mixed in a uniform way. Upon integration over > 3D polar coordinates, > one finds that the average net charge change, > according to the pancaking > equation, for randomly oriented atoms and orbitals, > is zero. However, the > conditions examined here differ from those of an > atom not in the presence > of ambient electronmagnetic fields, as do the > resulting forces. > > > ANALYSIS OF THE RELATIVISTIC PANCAKING EFFECT > > If some set of orbitals are aligned, say by a > magnetic field, or if we have > the case of a planar circular current in a > conductor, a neutral medium, > then the average apparent charge (as viewed from a > long enough distance to > make the circle diameter insignificant) does not net > out to zero, except at > a specific viewing angle. As viewed within the > plane, pancaking reduces > the apparent charge of charges in motion, and > increases the apparent charge > of charges in circular motion as viewed from the > poles of the circular > motion. > > The net apparent charge of a charge moving in a > small circle relative to > the distance of the viewer comes from integrating to > find the average value > of: > > k(theta,v) = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) > > for theta = 0 to 2Pi, where b = v^2/c^2, and then > subtracting the average > value from one to obtain the net charge change > factor K(v), because if v = > 0 then the observed (apparent) charge Q' is the same > as the charge Q: > > Q' = Q * 1 > > If the average value of k(theta,v) is non-zero, when > integrated over all > angles theta, for v not 0, then an average apparent > net charge exists when > v not 0. > > The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is > given by: > > f_avg(x) = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ > f(x) === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 14:35:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA09219; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:34:12 -0700 Message-ID: <005201c340e1$4e764960$5e201f41@woh.rr.com> From: "Nicholas Reiter" To: References: Subject: Re: vortex turbine Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:31:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"7AHec1.0.uF2.J_q0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51063 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to Horace and the others who replied, Colin and John et al offline. I will get back on this intellectually when I get back in a couple of weeks. Until then, I bid all good vortexians adieu for now. NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 4:02 AM Subject: Re: vortex turbine > I forgot to mention that this is radially symmetric in the vertical axis. > Also forgot to add some air flow arrows. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 16:22:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA27978; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 16:20:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 16:20:57 -0700 Message-ID: <002201c340f0$b2c21b60$6501a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: bifilar coil Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 19:21:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"8NKnu2.0.0r6.PZs0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51064 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Please hang in there with me on this as I take this bifilar coil and combine it with another unusual electrical device over the next couple of days. See coil test results below. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: Re: bifilar coil > At 5:42 AM 7/2/3, revtec wrote: > >I finished the coil last night. The romex cable is 14 ga not 12 as > >previously said. There are 37 layers of cable in the radial direction. > >The cable has a 14 ga ground between the black and white conductors. The > >inner ends of the black and white are connected with a wire nut. I put a > >pulsed dc signal of 2.5 v on the other end up to 8 khz. I put a Scope > >Plus 440 across the ground wire. > > > >Somebody predict what if anything I saw on the scope. > > > Why should anyone bother to play games like this when you already have the > results? It is up to *you* to post results. The "game" I am playing is to find out who has a solid and accurate understanding of unusual electromagnetic configurations. I need some knowledgable help. The goal is an OU device. > All the same, the inductance of the coil and self capacitances are low, > thus you get a root resonance at a fairly high frequency and in my > experience you get apparent strong resonances and overtones at frequencies > all over the place. It is a very noisy low impedence LC ciruit. Preliminary test 7-1-03 PM While applying the 2.5 v supply intermittantly to the black & white leads the scope meter (SM) showed nothing across the ground wire. To increase the frequency I clipped in a metal file and drug the power supply lead across the file. The SM indicated the frequency as a function of my drag speed. (wish I had a signal generator) Below 5 khz the SM displayed nothing on the ground wire. Between 5khz an 8 khz I got intermittant positive and negative spikes of approx 10 v. This morning I hooked up my Goldstar oscilloscope for more details on the spikes, hooking channel 1 across the bifilar and ch 2 across the ground coil. The spikes rang at approx 100khz and damped out after ten cycles. The bifilar resonated at approx 50khz and was noisy as you said, but much of that noise could be from my "signal generator". I will need a real signal generator to find out if and why there are intermittant spikes. Radio interference ocurred equally across the am band and affected FM as well. Tone of noise was not a function of drag speed. Inserting a 3" x 10" steel bar into the center of the coil seemed to have no effect on the characteristics. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 2 22:48:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA13872; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 22:48:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 22:48:08 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030702210138.12981.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030702210138.12981.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 00:46:28 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Jeffrey Satinover Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"E2vLW2.0.gO3.OEy0_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51065 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >however, it can be considered a sign of insanity. at >least, if what passes for republican thought is sane, >call me crrrraaazzzyyy. I'm savy enough to realize that one party is taking us to the socialist utopia, SU at 40 MHP and the other wants to go 90 MPH. > > > > I was particularly amused by the article Is >> Liberalism a form of brain >> > damage? >> >> The answer to that one's "no". Satinover and I are both followers of Judaism which some people regard as insanity, but which gives one a strong moral code and a big dose of alturism which, IMHO, are both lacking in liberalism. Now this is liberalism as currently defined, a belief in the state's intervention, as opposed to individual effort as a method of making the world better. > > >> For that matter, any other opinion that can be held >> as a result of reasoning from >> necessarily incomplete data about the real world >> would also certainly not be a form >> of brain damage -- even opinions that are at the >> opposite end of the spectrum from > > mine... Liberals completely ignore the repeated failure of socialism to achieve any positive change in the world. They also ignore it's tendency to go toward totalitarian governments. This is due in large measure to their failure to acknowledge the inherent tendency of humans toward evil. Since Judaism acknowledges this, we have a different view of the world. The articles finishing with a mention of Bill Clinton's sexual immorality, which, IMHO, is indicative of a fundamental lack of character and an inherent untrustworthyness. The fact that liberals will argue that this is not the case, is another indication of a fundamental disconnection with reality, leading to insanity. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 06:49:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA06647; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 06:48:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 06:48:27 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.245] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John B" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Non-Magnetic N-Machine limits Re: SR applied to circular currents Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 13:47:54 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2003 13:47:55.0129 (UTC) FILETIME=[B472A690:01C34169] Resent-Message-ID: <"z9fGR3.0.nd1.hG31_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51066 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >If this is true, then a field is predicted which is not energy >conservative. A path from the polar region to a distant point on the plane >of the circular current, to a near point on the plane, and back to the >polar region, gains a fixed increment of energy. I don't understand how the field arises to create what you expect, nor do I understand the winding arrangement. Can you supply a diagram? I do not see how pancaking alone (in this example) can create an electric field that would be able to induce a current in a coil. However it is possible if brushes are used, this is the basis of an N-Machine or homopolar/unipolar motor/generator. Which leads me to an interesting thought. An N-Machine made of no magnetic materials (one stationary coil, rotating disk and of course brushes), would be limited to rotating in one direction and have a maximum useful rotational velocity. This is because if you rotate the disk so that the electrons in the coil increase in speed, so do the protons, this cancels any voltage increase, only by rotating the disk so that the electrons appear stationary and the protons move will you be able to create the opposite voltage. This means that an N-Machine made of no magnetic materials would only generate voltage when rotated in one direction. I have some further ideas based on there is agreement on this on this. BTW, how do we know the current in a wire moves as slow as claimed? And are we sure that some electrons don't move faster, or perhaps jump somehow like an electron changes quantum states, especially in (so values of less than 1mm per second might be average values?) _________________________________________________________________ Gaming galore at http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming ! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 07:03:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA13326; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:01:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:01:47 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: A note on the Aquino stuff Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 20:59:13 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"BUgjj1.0.yF3.9T31_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51067 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can't remember offhand who said it, but as I was rummaging through old stuff I came across the note someone posted about testing positive for the Aquino effect with flourescent plastic stars. The weight change was microscopic, well beyond any measurement capabilities I have (I am back in the swamps, very primitive lab, and all my major electronic gear back at home). But I remembered another post made about flourescent lights- that if Aquino was correct, flourescent lights should decrease in weight when lit up. And, lo and behold, I have here a primitive balance - 2.5 m of PVC pipe suspended by twine, an old flourescent bulb, as well as the guts of an old 3v mosquito swatter. I hooked up the bulb (27w? 220v circle type flourescent lamp) to the mosquito swatter output (works well for a light...) and rigged it up on the balance, counterweighted by a 2kg mass. And I observed what appeared to be a *miniscule* loss of mass, although the caveat woud be in artifacts caused by any em field emitted by the bulb. being circular, as well as being extremely low power, I believe what I saw was genuine, whether it is a loss of mass or whether it is just the energy radiance acting as as countering force to gravity I don't know. I repeated the experiment several times, the result was consistent. >From what I saw, I guess when the light's on, it gets light. Until someone does this with precision scales to illuminate the concept.. ... cheers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 10:03:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA07639; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:02:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:02:26 -0700 Message-ID: <20030703170218.53066.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:02:18 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Jeffrey Satinover To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"9Le0B2.0.5t1.X661_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51068 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: liberalism does not mean socialism. also, a socialist gov tends to go towards totalitarianism as soon as teh repubs get in charge. the thing with moral codes, is that any moral code that doesnt include in it a moral against pushing YOUR morals on others, in inherently immoral by teh standards of every morality but your own. morality is NOT an absolute. for example, as the great R.A.H. said, in a canabalistic society, is is considered immoral NOT to eat human flesh. the republican party seems to not realize this. in addition, they fail to realize that the point of government is the people. not the corparations, but the people as a whole. any form of corparate welfare that does not directly help the people of the country, but merely puts money in the pockets of the few, is inherently, by the terms of teh constitution, illegal. repubs say that they are against big government. but every time they are in office, the government, in terms of offices, positions, laws, spending, and entire freaking BUEROS, gets bigger and bigger. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? 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DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 10:18:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA17617; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:17:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:17:53 -0700 Message-ID: <004c01c34186$a9574dc0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <3F02D1DD.7020906@rtpatlanta.com> <5.2.0.9.1.20030702173041.00a7e368@pop.onlinehome.de> Subject: Re: Cavitation Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:15:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA17469 Resent-Message-ID: <"3Ns3G1.0.6J4.0L61_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51069 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow ! I hope this is not the last extremely detailed reference book to appear online. Publishers must hate it, but it seems like a trend at least in technical works. A textbook this thorough on sonochemistry and/or sonofusion would be an ideal complement to this one. There is some new research on water sonochemistry that should be of interest to those on vortex who have followed water-fuel and the possibility that HTP (high test peroxide), a potential transportation fuel which can be easily derived from water cavitation at low cost to replace fossil fuels. I hope to post a message later today. Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Huffman" > Ahoy There! > > Just ran across this reference, and thought you might be interested. It > seems that Christopher E. Brennen has made his excellent book "Cavitation > and Bubble Dynamics" available online *for free* through the Cal Poly > electronic library. Indeed, it seems to be the very first book to be made > available, and at the present, the only book available. > > http://caltechbook.library.caltech.edu/archive/00000001/00/bubble.htm > > Definitely worth checking out if you are a fellow bubblehead. > > Knuke From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 10:47:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA00847; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:45:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:45:20 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:50:00 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A note on the Aquino stuff Resent-Message-ID: <"pPapJ2.0.8D.lk61_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51070 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:59 PM 7/3/3, explorecraft wrote: >I repeated the experiment several times, the result was consistent. > >>From what I saw, I guess when the light's on, it gets light. I have done some EM thrustor experiments in which there were very exciting and consistent results of this kind. However, when the "thrustor" was turned upside down the thrust remained upward. It turned out that circuit heating simply creates an updraft at the end of the balance beam. Unfortunately, you can't test your premise by turning your ciruit upside down. The experiment appears to require a vacuum with EM shielding too. For me, converting some experiments to a torsion pendulum version worked fairly well. Unfortunately this too will not work for you. It might be possible to get some information by puting a control device on the opposite end of the pendulum. The control device could also just be axchanged with the bulb. This would be a device which consumes exactly the same amount of power as the light, or more, and has about the same surface area as the light. If the premise is that the flourescent powder loses weight, then maybe a UV bulb, or even an ordinary incandescent bulb, of the same wattage would work to show the principle. Alternatively, irradiating the light as-is on your existing balance with a UV ligt behind a UV transparent barrier (in order to avoid yet more thermals in the area) would show that the effect does or does not occur. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 12:16:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA25309; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:12:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:12:13 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:16:53 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Non-Magnetic N-Machine limits Re: SR applied to circular currents Resent-Message-ID: <"6a0uO2.0.IB6.C081_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51071 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:47 AM 7/3/3, John B wrote: >>If this is true, then a field is predicted which is not energy >>conservative. A path from the polar region to a distant point on the plane >>of the circular current, to a near point on the plane, and back to the >>polar region, gains a fixed increment of energy. > > >I don't understand how the field arises to create what you expect, nor do I >understand the winding arrangement. Well, it is then a good thing for me that I don't give money back guarantees. 8^) I would like to be a better writer, but I just have not developed good proofreading skills, or patience. If I did, however, I would not have time to post much. I enjoy the posting, not the proofreading. > >Can you supply a diagram? Here again is Fig. 1, which shows how the field is diminished to the sides of a current loop, and increased toward the top. It is important to the understanding of the diagram that b = (v/c)^2, K(v) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[b]/Pi has a value less than 1, and that gamma = (1 - b)^(-1/2) has a value greater than 1. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - q' = q * gamma (q' > q) (-) N | | (+) o | x (+) q' = q * K(v) (q' < q) | | S Magnetic Poles (-) o - current out of page (electrons into page) x - current into page (electrons out of page) (+) - positive net apparent charge (-) - negative net apparent charge Fig. 1 - Diagram of SR based Coulombic field - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Figure 2, supplied below, shows in cross section an SR field generator coil and a secondary coil. The brushes supplying the primary coil are actually just slip rings. In the case of a superconducting primary coil, no brushes would be required. The secondary coil might be wrapped in the same lines as the air flow lines about Nicholas Reiter's vortex turbine. In that case there would be two seconday coils, one to each side of the primary coil. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------ | Primary | | Coil | axis B==============B ------------------- | | | Secondary / | | | (Stator) / ------------ | Coil / | / | / | / | / B - bearings and | / brushes | / = - Axle | / | / | / | / | / | / | / |/ Fig. 2 - The relativistic field generator - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The direction of the potential induced in the secondary is not dependent upon which way the primary coil spins, but is dependent on which way the current goes in the primary. Each turn of the stator loop should gain a fixed voltage because the field is not conservative. The charges in the coil look different from the side of the coil vs from the axis. The voltage generating segments are the bases of the stator triangle in Fig. 2. The hypotenuse is more rounded and is intended to follow a zero potential drop line. > >I do not see how pancaking alone (in this example) can create an electric >field that would be able to induce a current in a coil. It is really fairly simple. Relativistic effects are thought of as only significant at speeds near c. However, charge density in conductors is so huge, that the minor speed difference between conduction band electrons and nucleii is enough to entirely account for magnetism. This has been shown for long straight conductors in numerous texts, including Purcell's and Feynman's, as mentioned in this thread (before you changed the name.) I simply carried the analysis one step further, to see what happens if the wire is circular. What happens is that the moving charges, as seen from the poles of the circle, all scrunch their fields, thus are seen as having more charge. Electrons seen from the equatorial plane of the circle, have a *net* effect of reduced apparent charge. This is because electrons approaching or departing the viewer have a reduced charge, while those going sideways have an increased charge. When you add up the effects all around the circle, you end up with a net reduction in apparent charge, for the moving charges that is. Now, if the circle is a rotating conductor, then the motion of charges is relative. If the current i is in the direction of conductor rotation, then the electron motion is actually to the rear. The principle conduction then, as seen in a relativistic way , is by the nucleii. If the current is reversed, then the electrons are the faster charge carriers. The efffect is non-linear with velocity. Therefore you get a big boost by rotating the conductor. Since I have examined this from the very unconventional viewpont of apparent charge, not field dynamics, I should further mention that the E observed at any point in space is proportional to the realtive charge observed, and is in fact the only way to observe a "relative charge" at all. I could have perhaps analysed this in the pure field context, but that would have been much more difficult to follow, for me at least. I confess! I have violated the sacred conservation of charge rule! However, conservation of charge still works out in a net sense. When apparent charge is integrated about any spherical shell, it turns out that q'/q = 1. Charge is conserved after all. > >However it is possible if brushes are used, this is the basis of an >N-Machine or homopolar/unipolar motor/generator. These things work (or don't work) on entirely different principles. [snip unrelated stuff] > >BTW, how do we know the current in a wire moves as slow as claimed? >And are we sure that some electrons don't move faster, or perhaps jump >somehow like an electron changes quantum states, especially in (so values of >less than 1mm per second might be average values?) The values used for electron current flow speeds *are* average values. Statistical speed variations are indeed a concern. To compensate for this, it is important to test the device with coil current going in either direction, or even alternating. If it is an important effect then a larger field will result from the current going in the direction opposite the conductor's motion. The electrons thus go in the direction of conductor motion. That rasis the possibilty that the more energetic electrons will have an even greater effect, the less energetic electrons will have comparatively less effect, wioth a net increased effect. I hope that answers your questions. I have overdone my time on vortex of late and must get back to my mundane chores. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 12:20:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA02420; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:18:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:18:54 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:23:38 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A note on the Aquino stuff Resent-Message-ID: <"qOw5X3.0.Xb.T681_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51072 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: " Alternatively, irradiating the light as-is on your existing balance with a UV ligt behind a UV transparent barrier (in order to avoid yet more thermals in the area) would show that the effect does or does not occur. This was a dumb idea on my part. The powder inside the tube would have to be removed. The glass is not UV transparent. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 13:56:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA15764; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:55:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:55:04 -0700 Message-ID: <03d901c34185$f4c73e60$6401a8c0@colinqamd1200> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: Subject: Re: A note on the Aquino stuff Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:10:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [65.49.180.21] using ID at Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:09:44 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <"bgVOE2.0.Es3.dW91_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51073 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can you thermally wrap the flourescent tube sufficiently to prevent heat loss for long enough to re-do the scale measurements? Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "explorecraft" To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:59 AM Subject: A note on the Aquino stuff > > Can't remember offhand who said it, > but as I was rummaging through old stuff > I came across the note someone posted about > testing positive for the Aquino effect with flourescent plastic stars. > > The weight change was microscopic, well beyond any measurement > capabilities I have (I am back in the swamps, very primitive lab, > and all my major electronic gear back at home). > > But I remembered another post made about flourescent lights- > that if Aquino was correct, flourescent lights should decrease in weight > when lit up. > > And, lo and behold, I have here a primitive balance - 2.5 m of PVC pipe > suspended by twine, an old flourescent bulb, as well as the > guts of an old 3v mosquito swatter. > > I hooked up the bulb (27w? 220v circle type flourescent lamp) > to the mosquito swatter output (works well for a light...) > and rigged it up on the balance, counterweighted by a 2kg mass. > > And I observed what appeared to be a *miniscule* loss of mass, > although the caveat woud be in artifacts caused by any em field > emitted by the bulb. being circular, as well as being extremely low power, > I believe what I saw was genuine, whether it is a loss of mass or > whether it is just the energy radiance acting as as countering force > to gravity I don't know. > > I repeated the experiment several times, the result was consistent. > > From what I saw, I guess when the light's on, it gets light. > > Until someone does this with precision scales to illuminate the concept.. > ... cheers > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 14:20:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA25613; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 14:13:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 14:13:50 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:18:35 -0800 To: "Colin Quinney" , From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A note on the Aquino stuff Resent-Message-ID: <"dy7no.0.0G6.Eo91_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51074 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:10 PM 7/3/3, Colin Quinney wrote: >Can you thermally wrap the flourescent tube sufficiently to prevent heat >loss for long enough to re-do the scale measurements? > >Colin Say, this is a pretty good idea provided the insulation material is sealed in a non-expandable pressure vessel. Otherwise, buoyancy problems are even worse than updrafts. In effect, you make a small hot air ballon. If the tube gets warm enough to create updrafts it is plenty warm enough to cause bouyancy. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 15:13:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA23128; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 15:12:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 15:12:08 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <158.20d770fb.2c360410@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 18:11:28 EDT Subject: new catalyst To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Resent-Message-ID: <"Gu65e2.0.Ef5.teA1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51075 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've heard about a new catalyst composed of aluminum, platinum, tin, and nickel. The University of Wisconsin has developed it. It's cheep and works better than a precious metal. Does anyone know about this? Are most catalysts good proton conductors? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 18:51:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA07401; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 18:50:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 18:50:46 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: A note on the Aquino stuff Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:48:22 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"tGb_a1.0.Zp1.srD1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51076 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The tube doesn't warm up at all, I think the power out by the hv/hf supplied is probably less than 20w. But I will check, if I get a free moment today. I would rather try a 'hotter' power supply, but I simply don't have anything that looks good here. > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Friday, 2003 July 04 04:19 > To: Colin Quinney; vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: A note on the Aquino stuff > > > At 1:10 PM 7/3/3, Colin Quinney wrote: > >Can you thermally wrap the flourescent tube sufficiently to prevent heat > >loss for long enough to re-do the scale measurements? > > > >Colin > > > Say, this is a pretty good idea provided the insulation material is sealed > in a non-expandable pressure vessel. Otherwise, buoyancy > problems are even > worse than updrafts. In effect, you make a small hot air ballon. If the > tube gets warm enough to create updrafts it is plenty warm enough to cause > bouyancy. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 22:26:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA10926; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:26:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:26:10 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 21:30:58 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: new catalyst Resent-Message-ID: <"cRukQ2.0.eg2.o_G1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51077 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:11 PM 7/3/3, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >I've heard about a new catalyst composed of aluminum, platinum, tin, and >nickel. The University of Wisconsin has developed it. It's cheep and works >better than a precious metal. Does anyone know about this? Are most >catalysts >good proton conductors? > >Frank Znidarsic I think it is aluminum, tin, and nickel. If you do a google advanced search for "all the words" wisconsin catalyst aluminum tin, then you get a number of articles about it. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 23:46:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA07151; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:45:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:45:46 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:50:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: SR Applied to Circular Currents, Draft #2 Resent-Message-ID: <"ILJJe2.0.Zl1.QAI1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51078 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: SR Applied to Circular Currents, Draft #2 BACKGROUND AND ASSUMPTIONS It is well known that special relativity predicts changes in the observed field of a particle due to the flattening of the field in the direction of motion. This flattening is due to application of the Lorentz contraction due to relative motion. This relativistic effect of flattening the apparent field is called the "pancaking" of the Coulombic field. It is the intent here to discuss the effects of pancaking with respect to planar circular direct currents. On p.492 of *The Electromagnetic Field*, Albert Shadowitz provides the equation for relativistic (Coulombic) field pancaking as: E = Q/(4 Pi e0 r^2) (1 - (v^2/c^2))/(1 - (v^2/c^2) sin^2 theta)^(3/2) If we let b = v^2/c^2 then we can interpret apparent charge Q' to be: Q' = Q (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) which can be interpreted to mean apparent charge is reduced to observers in line with the charge velocity vector and increased as the viewing angle is increased. Note - it is not standard physics to interpret pancaking as a change in apparent charge (standard relativity assumes charge is invariant with velocity) but rather a change in observed field strength, but we should be able to interpret the pancaking equation for Q' either way. Consider the Bohr model of the atom where the electrons whiz around a nucleus. Specific electrons present some degree of pancaking from any angle viewed. In some directions apparent charge is increased and some directions decreased. In a non-magnetic medium, the polar orientation of atom orbitals is mixed in a uniform way due to the orientation of atoms being mixed in a uniform way. Upon integration over 3D polar coordinates, one finds that the average net charge change, according to the pancaking equation, for randomly oriented atoms and orbitals, is zero. However, the conditions examined here differ from those of an atom not in the presence of ambient electromagnetic fields, as do the resulting forces. ANALYSIS OF THE RELATIVISTIC PANCAKING EFFECT If some set of orbitals are aligned, say by a magnetic field, or if we have the case of a planar circular current in a conductor, a neutral medium, then the average apparent charge (as viewed from a long enough distance to make the circle diameter insignificant) does not net out to zero, except at a specific viewing angle. As viewed within the plane, pancaking reduces the apparent charge of charges in motion, and increases the apparent charge of charges in circular motion as viewed from the poles of the circular motion. The net apparent charge of a charge moving in a small circle relative to the distance of the viewer comes from integrating to find the average value of: k(theta,v) = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) for theta = 0 to 2Pi, where b = v^2/c^2, and then subtracting the average value from one to obtain the net charge change factor K(v), because if v = 0 then the observed (apparent) charge Q' is the same as the charge Q: Q' = Q * 1 If the average value of k(theta,v) is non-zero, when integrated over all angles theta, for v not 0, then an average apparent net charge exists when v not 0. The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is given by: f_avg(x) = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ f(x) dx ] so the value of net charge change factor K(v) = 1 - [average over theta of k(theta,v)] is given by: K(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] which requires solving an elliptic integral of the second kind, and yields a net charge: Q_net = K(v) Q where K(v) can be approximately based on the average speed of the electrons. Note that in the 3D situation the averaging integral equivalent to the above would be [Integral from 0 to Pi] [k(theta) sin(theta) d theta] because it is necessary to average over theta with a weight of sin(theta) to account for the surface area involved. This integral evaluates to one, thus K(v) evaluates to zero. However, in the planar version, K(v) does not average to zero. NUMERICAL APPROXIMATION OF THE PANCAKING EFFECT The average values k_avg(v) of k(theta,v) for random planar orientations as viewed from the plane were directly calculated by computer program, thus producing the incremental force factor: K(v) = 1 - k_avg(v) over a complete circle, for theta = 0 to 2 Pi. Results for various values of v/c are shown in Table 1: v/c K(v) .999999 0.363371045179493 .5 6.57845423323069D-02 .1 2.50470713873419D-03 .01 2.5000468772296D-05 .001 2.50000048662713D-07 .0001 2.50000153911856D-09 Table 1 - Direct numerical estimation of K(v) These factors indicate the possibility of huge apparent net charges, especially from electrons moving at the speed of k shell electrons (if such could be made to move in a planar orbit.). The innermost electrons of Fe have an ionization potential of 9277.69 eV, and Ni has 10775.40 eV. Using half the ionization potential of Ni as electron kinetic energy we obtain: 1/2 m_e v^2 = (10775.4 eV)/2 = 8.63 J v = 4.35x10^7 m/s v = 0.145 c so more than 0.25 percent of the total charge for such electrons would appear as net apparent positive charge in the atom, if a sufficiently strong magnetic field could be applied so as to make K shell orbitals nearly flat (an astronomical magnitude magnetic field to be sure!) ANALYTICAL SOLUTION USING MATHEMATICA In order to obtain an exact form of the integral, Mathematica was used to integrate the pancake function obtaining a finite integral. Unfortunately a complete elliptic integral of the second kind appears in the solution. The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is given by: f_avg = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ f(x) dx ] so the value of net charge change factor K_incr(v) = 1 - k_avg is given by: K_incr(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] Mathematica says: [integral from 0 to 2 Pi] [ (1 - b sin^2 theta)^(-3/2) d theta] is given by: -(EllipticE[x, b]/(-1 + b)) + (b*Sin[2*x])/(Sqrt[2]*(-1 + b)* Sqrt[2 - b + b*Cos[2*x]]) which, when evaluated from 0 to 2 Pi, is -4(EllipticE[b])/(b-1) where EllipticE[b] is a complete elliptic integral of the second kind. So: K(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ] = 1 - 1/(2 Pi) (1-b) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi] [ (1 - b sin^2 theta)^(-3/2) d theta] = 1 - 1/(2 Pi) (1-b) (-4(EllipticE[b])/(b-1)) = 1 - 4/(2 Pi) EllipticE[b] K(v) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[b]/Pi or alternately: K(v) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[v^2/c^2]/Pi Through use of Mathematica, the following confirming values of K(v) were obtained: Mathematica evaluation of K(v) = v/c K(v) 1 - 2 EllipticE[(v/c)^2]/Pi .999999 0.363371045179493 0.363375 .5 6.57845423323069D-02 0.0657845 .1 2.50470713873419D-03 0.00250471 .01 2.5000468772296D-05 0.0000250005 .001 2.50000048662713D-07 2.5e-7 .0001 2.50000153911856D-09 2.5e-9 Table 2 Thus it appears there is some evidence for a predicted net apparent charge, when matter is viewed in a plane containing the matter and normal to the magnetic field, in both neutral condensed matter and plasmas, or even magnetron chambers, if a sufficient magnetic field is present. The fact that apparent charge does not manifest in condensed matter might be construed to confirm the QM view that the "electron is everywhere" in the wave function, or that it has no specific location until sampled. There is thus no radiation from atoms because the orbital electrons do not actually "move." Plasma electrons are not so constrained by the QM boundaries as electrons in atoms though. The upper bound on the possible effect is less, due to lower velocities, but still significant for large astronomical bodies. It should be noted that this speculation so far ignores the effects of charge acceleration and general relativity effects. Now, to evaluate the integral giving k(b) for b = (v/c)^2, b small. Given the first few terms of EllipticE: EllipticE[b] = Pi/2 - (Pi b^2)/8 - (3 Pi b^2)/128 + ... we can evaluate the integral giving k(b) for b = (v/c)^2, b small: K(v) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[b]/Pi = 1 - 2 {1/2 - b/8 - 3 b^2/128} K(v) = b/4 + (3/64) (b^2) which is pretty good, and for many things K(v) = b/4 works OK too, or the series K(v) = (1/4) b + (3/64) (b^2) + (5/256) (b^3) + (175/16384) (b^4) + (441/131072) (b^5) + (4851/2097152) (b^6) + (14157/8388608) (b^7) + (2760615/ 2147483648) (b^8) + ... can be used to compute to the degree of accuracy desired. It is interesting though, that: EllipticE[1] = 1 so, a limit to the effect is provided by: K(c) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[q]/Pi = 1 - 2/Pi = 0.363380227632 EXAMINATION OF THE PANCAKING EFFECT Let's assume uniform circular motion, i.e. DC current, in a charge balanced medium. It is commonly assumed there is then no induction. However, it is often stated that accelerating charges produce fields, so perhaps the uniform acceleration of charges about the circle produce a field that precisely cancels the pancake effect field computed above. This would be a very unusual field that uniform charge acceleration about the circle must produce if it exactly cancels the special relativistic (SR) Coulomb field of a circle current, which is non-conservative. Given the SR Coulombic field pancaking equation and b = v^2/c^2, we have: k(theta) = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2) At theta = 90 deg. we have: k(Pi/2) = (1 - b)(1 - b)^(-3/2) = (1 - b)^(-1/2) = gamma(v) which represents an apparent charge increase for every charge as viewed from a point on the major axis and distant from the circle. The charge motion, from the polar vantage point, is viewed from the "side" at approximately 90 degrees. At theta = 0 deg. we have: K(v) = b/2 + ... which represents an apparent charge decrease. Using q' to designate the apparent charge observed for an actual current bearing charge q, this gives the following picture from the perspective of the velocity dependent SR field component: q' = q * gamma (q' > q) (-) N | | (+) o | x (+) q' = q * K(v) (q' < q) | | S Magnetic Poles (-) o - current out of page (electrons into page) x - current into page (electrons out of page) (+) - positive net apparent charge (-) - negative net apparent charge Fig. 1 - Diagram of SR based Coulombic field Note that, because the proposed current is carried by electrons moving within a positive medium, that the field is positive to the sides. If the current were carried by positive charge, the SR Coulombic field would be reversed. RAMIFICATIONS THUS FAR This analysis has been conducted from the very unconventional viewpoint of apparent charge, not field dynamics. However, the E observed at any point in space is proportional to the relative charge observed from that point, and is in fact the only way to observe a "relative charge" at all. Either way means of analysis provides a perfectly valid perspective, though the apparent charge method seems to easily and intuitively provide results. Relativistic effects are thought of as only significant at speeds near c. However, charge density in conductors is so huge, that the minor speed difference between conduction band electrons and nuclei is enough to entirely account for magnetism. In numerous texts, including texts by Purcell and Feynman, this has been shown for long straight conductors . Here the analysis is simply carried one step further, to see what happens if the wire is circular. What happens is that the moving charges, as seen from the poles of the circle, all crunch their fields, thus are seen as having more charge. Electrons seen from the equatorial plane of a circular conduction path, have a net effect of reduced apparent charge. This is because electrons approaching or departing the viewer have a reduced charge, while those going sideways have an increased charge. When you average the net charge about the circle, a seen from a point in the equatorial plane, you end up with a net reduction in apparent charge for those charges moving around the circle. Now, if the circle is a rotating conductor, then the motion of charges is relative. If the current i is in the direction of conductor rotation, then the electron motion is actually to the rear. The principle conduction then, as seen relativistic ally speaking, is by the nuclei. If the current is reversed, then the electrons are the faster charge carriers. The effect is non-linear with velocity. Therefore you get a big boost in the subject non-conservative field by rotating the conductor. The non-conservative SR field, if sufficient in size, can be used to make a generator which require no power input. Fig. 2, supplied below, shows in cross section an SR field generator coil and a secondary coil. The brushes supplying the primary coil are actually just slip rings. In the case of a superconducting primary coil, no brushes would be required. There can be two secondary coils, one to each side of the primary coil. The secondary coil, as shown in cross section, can be projected around the axis of the coil so as to make a quasi-toroidal coil, giving a mirror image triangle to the top of Fig. 2. ------------ | Primary | | Coil | axis B==============B ------------------- | | | Secondary / | | | (Stator) / ------------ | Coil / | / | / | / | / B - bearings and | / brushes | / = - Axle | / | / | / | / | / | / | / |/ Fig. 2 - The relativistic field generator The direction of the potential induced in the secondary is not dependent upon which way the primary coil spins, but is dependent on which way the current goes in the primary. Each turn of the stator loop should gain a fixed voltage because the field is not conservative. The charges in the coil look different from the side of the coil vs from the axis. The voltage generating segments are the bases of the stator triangle in Fig. 2. The hypotenuse is more rounded and is intended to follow a uni-potential line. Given that K(v) <= b/4, we have that k(v) is proportional to v^2. There is a good prospect that detection of this field can be made, if it exists, if the secondary coil is a superconductor. EFFECTS OF CHARGE ACCELERATION Next, it is necessary to consider the special relativistic effects of acceleration. In *Classical Electromagnetism via Relativity,* Plenum Press, 1968, W. G. V. Rosser develops (p. 272 ff) a proof that the field from a closed circuit, ignoring radiation fields, is zero. Rosser utilizes the following SR based equations for his proof: E = Ev + Ea Ev = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3) [r - r u/c][1 - v^2/c^2] Ea = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3 c^2) {r x ([r - r u/c] x [a])} s = [r - (r dot u)/c] where r, u, and a are vectors. Earlier in the text (p. 252) Rosser credits the above equations to Frisch and Wilets (Amer. J. Phys. 24(1956) p.574.) The above equations are not approximations and are consistent with the Maxwell-Heaviside equations. Rosser only actually proves his case for a specific circuit which has sharp bends, but assumes the bends are not significant because the accelerations involved are not large (apparently due to the fact the electron velocity is slow in wires ) This seems to be a flawed approach and also as immaterial to high velocity situations, like those found in stars. Further, Rosser's proof has the glaring limitation that it only shows a netting to zero in the plane of his special circuit, which consists of two (radial from the point of observation) straight lines and two arcs centered on the point of observation. Even if Rosser's proof is assumed to be correct in general, to the level of accuracy he produces, and even if the apparent charge is assumed to net to zero in the plane of the circuit, a non-conservative field appears when we look at the ramifications of the Ea equation in the polar regions of Fig. 1. Rosser shows (p. 276) that the formula for Ea implies: Ea ~= -q/(4 Pi e0 c^2) [a_perp]/[r] where [a_perp] is the component vector of vector [a] that is perpendicular to vector [r]. Using scalar centripetal acceleration a = v^2/r to estimate the Coulombic field at points on the central polar axis distant from the current ring, we obtain: Ea ~= -q/(4 Pi e0 c^2) (v^2/r)/(r) = -q/(4 Pi e0 r^2) (v^2/c^2) and we obtain an apparent charge factor of -v^2/c^2 = -b due to the acceleration component of the polar Coulombic field. Now, clearly , -b does not exactly, at every v, offset the charge factor: gamma(v) = (1-b)^(-1/2) obtained using the standard SR field pancaking equation. We are left with an apparent net charge at the poles of: q' = q [(1-b)^(-1/2) - b] If this is true, then a field is predicted which is not energy conservative. A path from the polar region to a distant point on the plane of the circular current, to a near point on the plane, and back to the polar region, gains a fixed increment of energy. Call [(1-b)^(-1/2) - b] the net relativistic polar apparent charge factor Fp(v). Table 1 provides a quick look at various evaluations of Fp(v). b gamma(v) Fp(v) Incr., 1-Fp(v) v/c (v/c)^2 1/(1-b)^.5 1/(1-b)^.5-b 1-1/(1-b)^.5+b 0.0000 0 1 1 0 0.0001 0.00000001 1 0.99999999 1E-08 0.0010 0.000001 1 0.999999 9.99999E-07 0.0100 0.0001 1.000000005 0.999900005 9.9995E-05 0.1000 0.01 1.000050004 0.990050004 0.009949996 0.2000 0.04 1.000800961 0.960800961 0.039199039 0.5000 0.25 1.032795559 0.782795559 0.217204441 0.6000 0.36 1.071866157 0.711866157 0.288133843 0.7000 0.49 1.147154143 0.657154143 0.342845857 0.9000 0.81 1.70523372 0.89523372 0.10476628 0.9900 0.9801 5.037672145 4.057572145 -3.057572145 0.9990 0.998001 15.82325228 14.82525128 -13.82525128 0.9999 0.99980001 50.00375017 49.00395016 -48.00395016 Table 1 - Tabulation of Polar Apparent Charge Factors Note that the slope of Fp(b) near b=0, is given by: d/db Fp(b) = 1/(2(1-b)^(3/2)) - 1 which for b very small evaluates to roughly -1/2. Therefore, the incremental charge Q'(b) in a neutral planar circular conductor, for b very small is roughly: Q'(b) = b/2 Q = Q [v^2/(2c^2)] = [Q/(2c^2)] v^2. This addition of an apparent charge, proportional to v^2, to a neutral circular planar conductor, implies that if that neutral conductor is spun about its major axis in the direction of current flow, that the net polar apparent charge will increase. If the drift velocity is v_drift and the rim velocity is v, then the two current net polar charge factor will be: F_net(v,v_drift) = [1/(2c^2)] (v+v_drift)^2 - [Q/(2c^2)] (v)^2 F_net(v,v_drift) = [2 v v_drift + v_drift^2]/(2c^2) and since v_drift is typically under 1 mm/sec, and v can be many meters per second, a gain in the polar charge of at least 4 orders of magnitude can obtained by rotating the current carrier about its axis. SOME POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES It might be conjectured at this point that the Podkletnov antigravity experiment that NASA has been replicating, which uses a current carrying levitated spinning superconducting ring, does not show any artificial gravity because NASA is using a sensitive gravitometer. The field predicted looking at the pancake effect is electrostatic. Such a field might achieve the effect Podkletnov first noticed, namely that smoke rose above the spinning superconducting disk. It may be that the smoke particles were somewhat ionized. However, all the antigravity effects reported by Podkletnov can not be justified by the means discussed here, because the suggested electrostatic field would induce attracting charges on neutral objects. It is of interest that, due to the Faraday ice pail effect, shielding for the suggested force, which is electrostatic in nature, can not be easily achieved. The numbers can be significant for current carrying masses spinning at very high velocities, and in cases where very strong magnetic fields are involved and thus affecting atomic structure and alignment, and might provide an explanation for polar jets observed for fast spinning astronomical objects. In addition, a net anti-gravitational force from flat galaxies, or more specifically from aligned spinning structures within them, is predicted by the proposed theory. It is of further interest that if the proposed potential exists then conservation of energy is violated, free energy devices can be made. A SMALL TEST CASE Let's First look at a specific and mundane case readily tested by amateur means. Copper density is 8.96 g/cm^3 at 300 K, and atomic weight is 63.546. Avogadro's number is 6.0221x10^23 atoms/mole. There is thus 8.96 * 6.0221x10^23 /63.546 = 8.49x10^22 atoms per cm^3 of copper. This is also the approximately number of conduction band electrons per cm^3. If we assume a 7 cm radius disk spinning at 1800 rpm, or 30 rps, we obtain about a 13.2 m/s rim velocity. Assume the perimeter of the disk is wrapped with 140 turns, or 6160 cm of 0.02846 in, 0.0723 cm dia., No. 21 copper wire, carrying 1 amp DC. This wire has a cross sectional area of 0.0164 cm^2, or 1.64 mm^2. Total wire volume is (0.0164 cm^2)(6160 cm) = 101 cm^3. This wire has 13.05 ohms per 100 ft., or .428 ohms/meter. Total resistance is thus estimated at (.428 ohms/meter)(6160 cm) = 26.3 ohms, thus the wire is driven at 26.3 volts to achieve the 1 amp current. The 101 cm^3 of wire has a total (8.49x10^22 atoms per cm^3)(101 cm^3) = 8.57x10^24 conduction band electrons. There are thus (8.57x10^24 electrons)/(6160 cm) = 1.39x10^21 electrons/cm of wire. We have a current of 1.0 amps in the wire, or 1.0 coulomb/second. There is 1/q_e = 6.2415x10^18 electrons/coulomb, giving 6.2415x10^19 electrons/sec flowing in the wire. The electrons thus move at (6.24x10^19 electrons/sec)/{1.39x10^21 electrons/cm) = 0.0449 cm/sec, so: v_drift = 4.49x10^-4 m/sec We have about 8.57x10^24 conduction band electrons carrying the current so at 6.24x10^18 electrons/coulomb we have: Q = 1.37 x 10^6 coulombs carrying the current, so since: F_net(v,v_drift) = [2 v v_drift + v_drift^2]/(2c^2) Q' = Q [2 v v_drift + v_drift^2]/(2c^2) Q' = (1.37x10^6 coul.) [ 2 (13.2 m/s) (4.49x10^-4 m/sec) + (4.49x10^-4 m/sec)^2]/(1.8x10^17 m^2/s^2) ] = (1.37x10^6 coul.)(6.59x10^-20) Q' = 2.71x10^-14 coul. If we had a test charge of 1 coul. at a distance of 1 m from the spinning coil, and lying on its axis, we would have a force: F = [1/(4 Pi epsilon_0)] Q1 Q2/r^2 = [1/(4 Pi (8.85x10^12 F/m)](1 coul.)(2.71x10^-14 coul.)/(1 m)^2 F = 2.44x10^-4 N giving a field strength of: E = 2.44x10^-4 N/coul. = 2.44x10^-4 volts/meter which might be barely usable, but would be readily detected by use of a very low resistance loop. In that the field is non-conservative, it may be of sufficient magnitude to be of some utility if used with a superconducting current loop, or big cross section copper loop, wrapped about a magnetic core, but the back emf of the magnetic field building in the conductor would prohibit much power from being extracted. The power to drive the device is about 26 watts, plus maybe another 20-180 watts to drive the motor. However, a spinning superconductor could be used for the primary, and that would take almost no power except cooling. Suppose we could get 2 mV out of a 2 m triangular secondary current loop (the potential gain is higher near the rotating primary loop) and we have a copper conductor with a cross section of 144 cm^2, or 22.3 in^2. Copper has a conductivity of 4.01x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1, so the conductor has conductivity of (144 cm^2)(4.01x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1) = 5.77x10^8 cm ohm^1, or a resistance of 1.73x10^-9 ohm/cm. Using 600 cm for a length we have a total resistance of (1.73x10^-9 ohm/cm)(600 cm) = 1.03x10^-6 ohm. We would thus have a current I = E/R of (.002 V)/(1.03x10^-6 ohm) = 1940 amps, which is of course readily detectable. The heat output would be a mere (0.002 V)(1940 amps) = 3.88 watts. A practical device might be made by using very high speed rotating superconductor(s) carrying lots of current. If a 2000 amp carrying superconductor rotating at 18000 rpm is used, then the power output jumps to 388 watts. A variation is to drive the primary with A/C. The secondary would then be driven at (0.002 V) (1940 amps) = 3.88 watts A/C. It could be used to drive a transformer primary in order to drive a secondary at 3.88 watts and the voltage desired. Upping the rpms to 18,000 would produce about 38.8 watts, which would be above theoretical break-even if frictionless brushes and low friction bearings were used. SCALING UP By using supercooled aluminum wire, the conductivity can be increased by a factor of 10^5. This means the current can be increased by a factor of 10^(5/2) = 316 and still maintain the same I^2 R heat dissipation, and electron drift velocity v_drift can also be increased by a factor of 316. The drift velocity could be about (4.49x10^-4 m/s)(316) = 0.1419 m/s. Assuming a rim velocity of (60 rps)(1m)(Pi) = 188 m/s, the performance per turn can be compared to the small proof of concept experiment by: perf = F_net(188 m/s,0.1419 m/s) / F_net(188 m/s,4.49x10^-4 m/s) = [2 (188 m/s) (0.1419 m/s) + (0.1419 m/s)^2] / [2 (13.2 m/s) (4.49x10^-4 m/sec) + (4.49x10^-4 m/s)^2] = (53.4 m^2/s^2) / (.1186 m^2/s^2) = 450 The coil cross section can be increased from about 1 in^2 to about 100 in^2, thus giving another 100 fold increase in number of turns, and a total ampere-turns multiplier of 100*316 = 31600. The computed field strength of about 2.44x10^-4 volts/meter for the experiment then becomes (2.44x10^-4 v/m) * 31600 * 450 = 347 v/m, spread out over an area of about 3 m^2. A special triangular coil of cross section 3 m can length 3m to a side can then gain about (347 + 1/4 (347) + 1/9(347)) V/turn = 472 volts/turn. Assuming 100 turns that is 47.2 kV output, with a conductor cross section of 3 m^2/100 = 300 cm^2. Assuming the secondary is driven at a mere 1000 A/cm^2, with half the cross section taken up by winding space and insulation, that is (300 cm^2)*(1000 A/cm^2) = 30 kamps at 47.2 kV, or 1.42 GW. This indicates a very practical output. This is by far the most commercial idea, if proven feasible experimentally, even if it disappointingly does not result in the hoped for inertial drive. The proof of principle experiment was to take 140 turns of 1 amp. The proposed practical device armature has 14000 turns at 316 A/turn, therefore has total amp turns of (14000 turns)(316 amps/turn) = 4.42 mega-amp-turns in a coil of radius 1 m, and a 10 inch by 10 inch cross section, or 25.4 cm square cross section. It may not be feasible to hold this together. However, major offsetting gains in performance can be had by supercooling the secondary coil, and by increasing the area of the rotating coil, which then permits a much larger secondary coil, both in area and acceleration length, and reduces the magnetic pressure on the rotating coil. The coil cross section can be made thinner and wider, so structural support can be beefed up around it. The coil would actually consist of a series of concentric coils with structural support and cooling conduits interlaced between them. Using a seat of the pants number of about .7 N for 1000 amps. for the 1m radius coil hoop force, that force is increased by the square of the ratio of the amperages, (4.42x10^6/10^3)^2 or about 1.954x10^7, giving a force of 8.37x10^7 N, or 1.882x10^7 lbf, or about 9410 tons force between two halves of the proposed coil. Too much. At a 1m radius, or 6.28 m, that is about 75 inches perimeter giving a lateral force of about 213 tons/inch. Centrifugal force has to be added to that too. An FEA simulation of the 1 m diameter coil (to the conductor cross section midline) with 23.4 cm square conductor carrying 4,420,000 amps was run. The half hoop force was 1.267x10^7 N, or 2.85x10^6 lbs, or 1424 tons. The field strength at the conductor midline was a modest 1.27 T, seemingly not out of the ordinary to contain, even rotating. However, the iLB force of 1.426 N/inch, or 32,000 lbs/in. This is difficult considering the need for cooling and the fact the coil also needs to rotate. There is considerable room for design adjustment, and at the anticipated power output, much leeway in cost. Earlier, for the proof of principle experiment, it was assumed a secondary coil would reside only on one side of the rotating primary. However, a duplicate secondary (stator coil) can be placed on the other side of the rotating primary, thus doubling the output. Also, by adding another meter to the radius, the current and thus the power output of the secondary is quadrupled, or the primary current can be correspondingly reduced. If feasible, superconducting wire would be useful for the spinning primary coil from a couple aspects. One is cooling would not be a function of current, and another would be that the insulation is actually metal, and thus much more resistant to stress than plastic or rubber at cryogenic temperatures. There is no apparent way that a back e.m.f can be generated, but superconducting wire must be tested to see if a back e.m.f. somehow is generated. Unfortunately, a couple meter diameter superconducting coil would cost fairly big dollars, but nothing like a nuclear plant. Unless there is a significant mistake, and provided the basic principle stands the experimental test, it should be feasible to put a GW plant in a box about 10 meters to a side. TEST RESULTS SUMMARY This work was just one diversion in a protracted collaborative investigation of various apparent electromagnetic anomalies by Horace Heffner, Frank Stenger and Scott Little. A test using copper conductors was conducted by Frank Stenger in 2001. The results were negative. It appears one likely source of the problem is that the formula extensions due to acceleration are incorrect. A thorough test of principle, however, requires use of a superconducting secondary coil. In such a case a spontaneously increasing magnetic field in the superconductor would be evidence for the expected field. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 23:54:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA10840; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:53:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:53:36 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:58:23 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Non-Magnetic N-Machine limits Re: SR applied to circular currents Resent-Message-ID: <"HQZii3.0.If2.lHI1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51079 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the questions and comments John B. I updated the post with the related information, and corrcted some typos, and reposted under the thread "SR Applied to Circular Currents, Draft #2". I hope it is at least a little bit clearer now. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 3 23:58:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA13295; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:57:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:57:55 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030704075659.006a57c4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 07:56:59 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"tKRc61.0.RF3.pLI1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51080 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:30 am 02-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >So, what is the useful property? > Not useful but "interesting". To me that is, since I am interested in the way in which materials can fail. A shell of gyros with a relatively weak brittle frame will tolerate linear movement quite happily but tear itself apart when rotated, the kinetic energy of the gyros being off-loaded as strain energy of the frame. Many thanks for your advice on the matter. Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 4 08:49:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA22352; Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:48:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:48:06 -0700 Message-ID: <003801c3423f$8f0a5de0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Sonochemical HOOH a present reality? Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:18:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C34204.E23607C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"6Y_SN1.0.NS5.n6Q1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51081 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C34204.E23607C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is a bit ironic that certain third world countries will likely be the = first beneficiaries of a fossil-fuel replacement technology that is = closer to fruition than you may realize. This is true, not because of = their ecological concerns, but because of the alignment of numerous = other factors in poorer countries (besides the obvious lack of = petro-dollars) such as lack of a huge petroleum infrastructure, lack of = political interference by dominating oil companies and the politicians = they control, and a tolerance for certain needed sacrifices having to do = with the toxicity (pre-combustion) and stability dangers involved with = what may be the prime contender technology - fuel-grade HOOH (HTP). = Coal-to-methanol or biomass-to-methanol are the competing alternative = fuels, but they may only shift the fossil fuel burden away from = populated areas to a different geographic location, in effect.=20 Sonochemical production of hydrogen peroxide has advanced dramatically = in the last few years, although trade secrecy has kept the news of this = blossoming technology subdued. Because of the unusual nature of = cavitation, it has even been suggested that the production process = itself may be made OU, or at least extremely efficient. But the energy = balance is not clear from the information that is available - however, = even if not OU but efficient, the needed electricity can come from = nuclear in those large third world countries like China and India which = have nuclear capability, lots of uranium, and are already choking their = people to death from burning coal. "The lesser of two evils" as some = would say. If the replacement fuel is cheap enough and the engine = conversions necessary to burn HTP are not exorbitant, then it is rather = exciting for those two poor countries, as well as for a dozen richer = ones, possibly France, South Africa and others. Cavitation is unique in many ways. The implosion and break-up of = cavitation bubbles results in enormous localized temperature, pressure, = and electrochemical fluctuations. The phenomenon causes water to = fractionate into radical species (H+, OH-, HOO-) that rapidly react with = themselves or other compounds in solution. The combination of these = radicals can results in the preferential formation of H2O2, when a = catalyst and other contributing factors are present. HTP is a powerful = but slightly unstable molecule that can serve as both a *monopropellant* = and oxidizer. Again, the energy balance on its manufacture is not clear = but there are plenty of rumors that the heat content of HTP produced is = higher, some say several times higher, than the equivalent heat content = of the electricity used to manufacture it. This is extraordinary, if = true. Ultrasonics is also a good way to separate fully solvated liquids that = have only a slight density variation, but at room temp. For instance, if = one irradiates a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide, the water is removed = preferentially and you get a much stronger solution of peroxide over a = surprisingly short time.=20 A few months ago, I posted the following paraphrased info on HTP to = vortex - I hope it turns out to be prophetic: =20 Fuel economist Joe Stronsick was interviewed May 25, 2001 on CNN, on the = subject of saving money on auto fuel :=20 CNN Moderator: What are some of the most surprising things you = discovered about saving money on gas?=20 Joe Stronsick: The most surprising thing I have found is that they do = have vehicles that can run on water and hydrogen peroxide. These cars = get 100+ miles per gallon, and have zero emissions... YAWN the silence is deafening. The CNN interviewer is taken aback and = changes the subject...=20 Query: did Stronsick breach some kind of confidentiality agreement? Why = don't stories like this generate more interest among alternative fuel = advocates? For fifty years, it has been known that H-O-O-H, hydrogen peroxide or = HTP (High Test Peroxide - as it was known after WWII by the Brits who = used it extensively), has many advantages as a fuel, particularly in = rockets and torpedoes, despite its precombustion toxicity. When used as = a monopropellant, HTP has only about half as much energy content, in = terms of heat produced per pound, as gasoline burned in air. But it is = possible that HTP will be more efficient in producing torque in a = modified auto engine than gasoline, because of its far superior = volumetric efficiency. But even if the actual performance is less in practice than with = gasoline, the huge (future) advantage of HTP over hydrocarbons is simply = that it *isn't*- as they say. It isn't a fossil fuel, it isn't = air-polluting when burned, it isn't expensive, and it isn't controlled = by our enemies in the middle east. It is toxic when unburned, that's for = sure, but isn't gasoline as dangerous in other ways? Maybe HTP shouldn't = be available to your average "soccer mom" to fill her SUV just yet = (until we engineer ways around its toxicity) but what about starting out = by using it in trucks, heavy equipment, buses, trains? OTOH it probably isn't going to pay Bush's war taxes... ah, that is = another story... The actual cost that HTP can be produced for in a dedicated plant or = even in an ongoing process aboard a vehicle is not known. But the main = point is that HTP isn't a limited resource that can be manipulated by = our enemies. Even if we have to add more wind farms and nuclear plants = to produce the electricity needed to make HTP, surely we would be better = off in a strategic and economic sense. If not the USA then certainly the = 2.5 billion future motorists in China and India. The two main problems then, from the standpoint of government, are = dealing with the unburned toxicity (by engineering safe containment and = refueling options) and figuring out a way to tax the user to pay for = infrastructure....and whatever else those taxes go towards.=20 I predict that we will know if HTP is a competitive transportation fuel = in an ICE within the next few months. That is, we will have solid = indications whether or not it can eventually be used as a completive = fuel in a converted auto engine, either made on-board the vehicle itself = (if the process is OU) or using electricity from the grid in small = factories adjacent to filling stations. From there on, HTP will become a = political football....and you can be pretty sure how the current = administration will weigh-in on it.=20 In the long run, if it is as cheap to produce as predicted, and if third = world countries are leading the way, then even the oil companies and = their hired guns in D.C. will be hard pressed to resist the trend.... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C34204.E23607C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is a bit ironic that certain third world countries will = likely be=20 the first beneficiaries of a fossil-fuel replacement technology that is = closer=20 to fruition than you may realize. This is true, not because of their = ecological=20 concerns, but because of the alignment of numerous other factors in = poorer=20 countries (besides the obvious lack of petro-dollars) such as = lack of=20 a huge petroleum infrastructure, lack of political interference by = dominating=20 oil companies and the politicians they control, and a tolerance for = certain=20 needed sacrifices having to do with the toxicity (pre-combustion) and = stability=20 dangers involved with what may be the prime contender technology - = fuel-grade=20 HOOH (HTP). Coal-to-methanol or biomass-to-methanol are the competing=20 alternative fuels, but they may only shift the fossil fuel burden away = from=20 populated areas to a different geographic location, in effect. =
 
Sonochemical production of hydrogen peroxide has advanced = dramatically in=20 the last few years, although trade secrecy has kept the news of this = blossoming=20 technology subdued. Because of the unusual nature of cavitation, it = has=20 even been suggested that the production process itself may be made = OU, or=20 at least extremely efficient. But the energy balance is not clear from = the=20 information that is available - however, even if not OU but efficient, = the=20 needed electricity can come from nuclear in those large third world = countries=20 like China and India which have nuclear capability, lots of = uranium, and=20 are already choking their people to death from burning coal. "The lesser = of two=20 evils" as some would say. If the replacement fuel is cheap enough = and the=20 engine conversions necessary to burn HTP are not exorbitant, then it is = rather=20 exciting for those two poor countries, as well as for a dozen richer = ones,=20 possibly France, South Africa and others.
 
Cavitation is unique in many ways. The implosion and break-up of = cavitation=20 bubbles results in enormous localized temperature, pressure, and = electrochemical=20 fluctuations. The phenomenon causes water to fractionate into radical = species=20 (H+, OH-, HOO-) that rapidly react with themselves or other compounds in = solution. The combination of these radicals can results in the = preferential=20 formation of H2O2, when a catalyst and other contributing factors are = present.=20 HTP is a powerful but slightly unstable molecule that can serve as both = a=20 *monopropellant* and oxidizer. Again, the energy balance on its = manufacture is=20 not clear but there are plenty of rumors that the heat content of HTP = produced=20 is higher, some say several times higher, than the equivalent heat = content=20 of the electricity used to manufacture it. This is extraordinary, if = true.
 
Ultrasonics is also a good way to separate fully solvated liquids = that have=20 only a slight density variation, but at room temp. For instance, if one=20 irradiates a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide, the water is removed=20 preferentially and you get a much stronger solution of peroxide over a=20 surprisingly short time.
 
A few months ago, I posted the following paraphrased info on HTP to = vortex=20 - I hope it turns out to be prophetic:

 
Fuel economist Joe Stronsick was interviewed May 25, 2001 on CNN, = on the=20 subject of saving money on auto fuel :
 
CNN Moderator: What are some of the most surprising things you = discovered=20 about saving money on gas?

Joe Stronsick: The most surprising thing I have found is that = they do=20 have vehicles that can run on water and hydrogen peroxide. These cars = get 100+=20 miles per gallon, and have zero emissions...
 
YAWN  the silence is deafening. The CNN interviewer is taken = aback and=20 changes the subject... 
 
 
Query: did Stronsick breach some kind of confidentiality = agreement?=20 Why don't stories like this generate more interest among alternative = fuel=20 advocates?
 
For fifty years, it has been known that H-O-O-H, hydrogen peroxide = or HTP=20 (High Test Peroxide - as it was known after WWII by the Brits who = used it=20 extensively), has many advantages as a fuel, particularly in rockets and = torpedoes, despite its precombustion toxicity.  When used as a = monopropellant, HTP has only about half as much = energy=20 content, in terms of heat produced per pound, as gasoline burned in = air. But it is possible that HTP will be more = efficient in=20 producing torque in a modified auto engine than gasoline, because of its = far=20 superior volumetric efficiency.
 
But even if the actual performance is less in practice than with = gasoline,=20 the huge (future) advantage of HTP over hydrocarbons is simply that it = *isn't*-=20 as they say. It isn't a fossil fuel, it isn't air-polluting when burned, = it=20 isn't expensive, and it isn't controlled by our enemies in the middle = east. It=20 is toxic when unburned, that's for sure, but isn't gasoline as dangerous = in=20 other ways? Maybe HTP shouldn't be available to your average = "soccer mom"=20 to fill her SUV just yet (until we engineer ways around its=20 toxicity) but what about starting out by using it in trucks, = heavy=20 equipment, buses, trains?
 
OTOH it probably isn't going to pay Bush's war taxes... ah, = that is=20 another story...
 
The actual cost that HTP can be produced for in a = dedicated plant=20 or even in an ongoing process aboard a vehicle is not=20 known. But the main point is that HTP isn't a limited resource = that=20 can be manipulated by our enemies. Even if we have to add more wind = farms=20 and nuclear plants to produce the electricity needed to make HTP, surely = we=20 would be better off in a strategic and economic sense. If not the = USA then=20 certainly the 2.5 billion future motorists in China and = India.
 
The two main problems then, from the standpoint of = government, are=20 dealing with the unburned toxicity (by engineering safe containment and=20 refueling options) and figuring out a way to tax the user to pay for=20 infrastructure....and whatever else those taxes go towards.
 
I predict that we will know if HTP is a competitive transportation = fuel in=20 an ICE within the next few months. That is, we will have solid = indications=20 whether or not it can eventually be used as a completive fuel in a = converted=20 auto engine, either made on-board the vehicle itself (if the process is = OU) or=20 using electricity from the grid in small factories adjacent to filling = stations.=20 >From there on, HTP will become a political football....and you can be = pretty=20 sure how the current administration will weigh-in on it. 
 
In the long run, if it is as cheap to produce as predicted, = and if=20 third world countries are leading the way, then even the oil companies = and their=20 hired guns in D.C. will be hard pressed to resist the trend....
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C34204.E23607C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 4 09:05:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA07916; Fri, 4 Jul 2003 09:05:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 09:05:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:09:50 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"nttQy1.0.Xx1.nMQ1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51082 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:56 PM 7/3/3, Grimer wrote: >At 11:30 am 02-07-03 -0800, you wrote: > > > >>So, what is the useful property? >> >Not useful but "interesting". To me that is, since I am interested >in the way in which materials can fail. > >A shell of gyros with a relatively weak brittle frame will tolerate >linear movement quite happily but tear itself apart when rotated, >the kinetic energy of the gyros being off-loaded as strain energy >of the frame. That is an interesting problem. For atoms with low or no nuclear magnetic dipole moment there is no angular linkage with the atomic shells, so the nuclei sit in perfect gimbals. They can not apply torque to the lattice or vice versa. Even for materials containing nucleii with large magnetic moments there must be poor linkage with the lattice, as is evidenced in ordinary NMR observations. The nuclei can be made to precess in resonance at MHz rates, yet there is no significant lattice vibration or distortion, no significant piezoelectric effects. Perhaps there is significant magnetic screening between the nucleus and the valence electrons? For large mass atoms the nucleus is then sitting in gimbals within gimbals. Transition metal atoms have a permanent magnetic moment. However, Hall notes that these nucleii are typically kept far apart in a lattice. He gives: B ~ mu0 mu/(4 Pi a^3) where mu is the Bohr magneton (~ 10^-23 A m^2) and (a ~ 3 angstroms). The interaction energy bewteen ion pairs is thus given as: delta E ~ mu B delat E ~ 10^-7 * 10^-46/(10^-29) ~ 3x10^-25 joule delat E ~ 0.03 K Hall goes on to say that is the ion separation is increased to 10 angstrom the magnetic interaction energy drops to about 10^-3 K. The magnetic intractions seem to be way too mushy to get much in the way of gyroscopic action from transition metals (thus from compounds including transition metals). Even at 1 angstrom the linkage would increase to about 3x10^-24 joule = 1.8x10^-6 eV. This is about 6 orders of magnitude less than that required to break a covalent bond. What is interesting is what happens magnetically to the normally sedate lattice when it is under extreme stress. Perhaps large valence electron magnetic moments are briefly created somehow that link to the angular momentum of the nuclei. I don't know anything about that one way or another. It might be interesting to do NMR analysis of materials under stress. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 4 10:14:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA22044; Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:13:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:13:08 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030704181214.006a9bf8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 18:12:14 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"pQ-ku3.0.MO5.ZMR1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51083 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ooo! Thank you for all that extra information Horace. Those are questions I might well have got round to asking. :-) I shall have to make sure I keep that email for future reference. Cheers Frank At 08:09 am 04-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >At 11:56 PM 7/3/3, Grimer wrote: >>At 11:30 am 02-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >> >>>So, what is the useful property? >>> >>Not useful but "interesting". To me that is, since I am interested >>in the way in which materials can fail. >> >>A shell of gyros with a relatively weak brittle frame will tolerate >>linear movement quite happily but tear itself apart when rotated, >>the kinetic energy of the gyros being off-loaded as strain energy >>of the frame. > > >That is an interesting problem. > >For atoms with low or no nuclear magnetic dipole moment there is no angular >linkage with the atomic shells, so the nuclei sit in perfect gimbals. They >can not apply torque to the lattice or vice versa. > >Even for materials containing nuclei with large magnetic moments there >must be poor linkage with the lattice, as is evidenced in ordinary NMR >observations. The nuclei can be made to precess in resonance at MHz rates, >yet there is no significant lattice vibration or distortion, no significant >piezoelectric effects. Perhaps there is significant magnetic screening >between the nucleus and the valence electrons? For large mass atoms the >nucleus is then sitting in gimbals within gimbals. > >Transition metal atoms have a permanent magnetic moment. However, Hall >notes that these nuclei are typically kept far apart in a lattice. He >gives: > > B ~ mu0 mu/(4 Pi a^3) > >where mu is the Bohr magneton (~ 10^-23 A m^2) and (a ~ 3 angstroms). The >interaction energy between ion pairs is thus given as: > > delta E ~ mu B > > delat E ~ 10^-7 * 10^-46/(10^-29) ~ 3x10^-25 joule > > delat E ~ 0.03 K > >Hall goes on to say that is the ion separation is increased to 10 angstrom >the magnetic interaction energy drops to about 10^-3 K. > >The magnetic interactions seem to be way too mushy to get much in the way of >gyroscopic action from transition metals (thus from compounds including >transition metals). Even at 1 angstrom the linkage would increase to about >3x10^-24 joule = 1.8x10^-6 eV. This is about 6 orders of magnitude less >than that required to break a covalent bond. > >What is interesting is what happens magnetically to the normally sedate >lattice when it is under extreme stress. Perhaps large valence electron >magnetic moments are briefly created somehow that link to the angular >momentum of the nuclei. I don't know anything about that one way or >another. It might be interesting to do NMR analysis of materials under >stress. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 5 01:13:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA21954; Sat, 5 Jul 2003 01:12:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 01:12:34 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 03:11:53 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Satinover Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"mftZd2.0.sM5.oXe1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51084 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dr. Satinover ad I are students of the Law as spelled out in the Torah. The fact that most people choose to ignore it doesn't change it's existence and their being subject to it. OTOH, the earth and the web of life may just have happened, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. Wishing you all a Sabbath Day's Peace, From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 5 08:28:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA23576; Sat, 5 Jul 2003 08:27:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 08:27:57 -0700 Message-ID: <20030705152753.59497.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 08:27:53 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: new catalyst To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"feDAv2.0.Im5.zvk1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51085 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: any particular reaction we were looking to catalyze here? catalysts are pretty reaction specific. --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 6:11 PM 7/3/3, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > >I've heard about a new catalyst composed of > aluminum, platinum, tin, and > >nickel. The University of Wisconsin has developed > it. It's cheep and works > >better than a precious metal. Does anyone know > about this? Are most > >catalysts > >good proton conductors? > > > >Frank Znidarsic > > > I think it is aluminum, tin, and nickel. If you do > a google advanced > search for "all the words" wisconsin catalyst > aluminum tin, then you get a > number of articles about it. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 5 09:56:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA29484; Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:55:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:55:58 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c34315$f38ec4a0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:53:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA29455 Resent-Message-ID: <"zpE-I3.0.YC7.UCm1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51086 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner: > What is interesting is what happens magnetically to the normally sedate > lattice when it is under extreme stress. Perhaps large valence electron > magnetic moments are briefly created somehow that link to the angular > momentum of the nuclei. I don't know anything about that one way or > another. It might be interesting to do NMR analysis of materials under > stress. Horace, you might be interested in this reference: "Fracture induced electromagnetic radiation" V Frid, A Rabinovitch and D Bahat http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0022-3727/36/13 Abstract In our laboratory, we combine accurate electromagnetic radiation (EMR) measurements during fracture of rocks (carbonate and igneous) and transparent materials (glass, PMMA and glass ceramics) with careful fractographic methods. A critical analysis of experimental observations, accumulated here during the last decade together with supporting material from the works of other authors are used in this study to demonstrate the failure of all current models to explain the properties of EMR arising from fracture. The basic elements of a new model are proposed. These are (a) the EMR amplitude increases as long as the crack continues to grow, since new atomic bonds are severed and their contribution is added to the EMR. As a result, the atoms on both sides of the bonds are moved to 'non-equilibrium' positions relative to their steady state ones and begin to oscillate collectively in a manner similar to Debye model bulk oscillations-'surface vibrational optical waves'; (b) when the crack halts, the waves and the EMR pulse amplitude decay by relaxation.... END of quote The fracture of structural materials will induce the emission of electrons, ions, neutral atoms and molecules, visible photons, radio waves and soft x-rays. Normally this would only occur along stress crack-lines, so the energy emitted would be difficult to harness, as it is only occurs on a small percentage of the total mass involved. Instead of a single crack in a piece of rock, imagine 10^20 small cracks in tiny spheres of a structural material of equal strength, but material that will gasify when stressed. Imagine that this can be done in a serial fashion several 10s of times per second. As you might guess from my previous posts on the explosiveness of water-ice, this referenced material above is beginning to fill in some of the blanks about how one can possibly create a transportation fuel, in whole or in part, from a highly-particulated solid material (ice, ice-clathrates, ice-HTP, etc.) which gasifies under mechanical stress to expand to over 1000 times its previous volume. This technique, which I have labeled as CAMFR or chemically assisted mechanical failure reaction, does not fall into our previous notions about combustion and is certainly NOT Carnot limited as is normal combustion. But is it OU? Quien Sabe? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 5 14:52:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA29246; Sat, 5 Jul 2003 14:50:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 14:50:59 -0700 Message-ID: <006301c3433f$28c4e9a0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: WMD...told you so... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 14:48:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01C34304.7BF9BB40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"PEbyW3.0.r87.3Xq1_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51087 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C34304.7BF9BB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the Finally Found department.... Go to google.com, type in:=20 "Weapons of Mass Destruction"=20 and hit the *I'm Feeling Lucky* button ... ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C34304.7BF9BB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
From the Finally Found department....
 
Go to google.com,  type in:
"Weapons of Mass Destruction"
and hit the *I'm Feeling Lucky* button ...
------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C34304.7BF9BB40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 12:59:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA03866; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 12:58:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 12:58:13 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <84.14b7da5d.2c39d911@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:57:05 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Where does all of the energy come from & Bible Warning To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, wpeterson2@comcast.net, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_84.14b7da5d.2c39d911_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"N65js2.0.Fy.Kz72_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51088 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_84.14b7da5d.2c39d911_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/2003 7:00:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wpeterson2@comcast.net writes: > Hello Antigravity, Pete's Gravim has answers to your problems. It > explains why the universe is expanding. Also it explains where the > energy is coming from to cause gravity, mass, magnetism and > electrical forces. I've been taught that mass just keeps on expending > the energy that it takes to cause the force of gravity endlessly. And > that there is no reduction of the mass. And there is no other > observable change in the mass after expending endless amounts of > energy as required to cause the force of gravity. The book, The Gods Themselves -- by Isaac Asimov; Paperback , explains where the energy is coming from also. It comes from a parallel universe which has energy in the opposite direction as ours, so that the energy can run up hill both ways, by the time it reaches our universe again to gain energy eternally. Asimov estimates in the above book that there is enough energy between universes to last for trillions of years. But we do have to be very careful of how we use the energy transfer technologies, otherwise our sun could explode. You should go to the Barns and noble book store and read the chapter on the above idea by Asimov, since it is very detailed. At the edge of the universe there are thousands of universes that cannot be seen with present telescopes, where energy could be coming from, and which may have energy running in the opposite direction as our universe. >From your pyramid idea, I have figured out how to engineer in a water pump, and get water to run up the pyramid with sympathetic vibratory pumps, and to run down the pyramid by means of gravity to generate electricity, and to clean the ionizer's on the outside of pyramid which clean the smog in the atmosphere in a big city like LA. The Earth can be moved by satellite technologies, where the satellites get the energy from the sun, and then use Tesla like gravity waves beams generated from Tesla bulbs, tuned to the resonant frequencies of the Earth to gradually move the Earth into a new orbit. I think the pyramids, keep the Earth in the proper orbit, and are used to clean the atmosphere, generate electricity, and strengthen the ozone. Pyramids just look architecturally very nice, and are strong in form. I could use Tesla energy towers instead of pyramids to clean up the atmosphere with giant ionizer's, but pyramids look nicer than Tesla energy towers. Apartments can also be built into the pyramid form in a city much like they are in Disney World where the monorail runs through the pyramid, and which have the local water and air purified by the pyramid wall ionizer's and generate healthy energy force fields around the apartments by means of water gravity and sympathetic vibratory pumps used to generate the needed electricity. I think you should be careful about using nuclear technologies in a blast pit, since nuclear technologies are very dirty and dangerous. We can avoid using nuclear technologies by using the above satellites to move the Earth, and we can also generate electricity with water energy so that nuclear technologies are not necessary. This may be the warning in the bible, to avoid the use of the pit or the nuclear pit, to avoid the potential dangers of nuclear technologies. The movie the China Syndrome may also be a warning to avoid the use of nuclear technologies, when we could simply use cold fusion, hydorgen energy, and sympathetic water energy transfer technologies to do the same job as nuclear technologies. China has to many nuclear reactors, and they could create a nuclear disaster in the future to create the bible prophesies and nuclear disaster pit which puts the Earth into the eternal bottomless pit by means of a nuclear explosion or solar explosion caused by a nuclear war or energy disaster as Asimov warns us about in his book. The winds and clouds from China after a nuclear disaster could reach L.A. or the USA. Perhaps China should give up using nuclear energy technologies and weapons to avoid the biblical warnings and potential disasters. Like you said the bible prophesies give us time to change and an escape clause, perhaps we should avoid the use of nuclear technologies and encourage China to not use nuclear energy technologies but water energy like cold fusion or hydrogen instead. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_84.14b7da5d.2c39d911_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/5/2003 7:00:20 PM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, wpeterson2@comcast.net writes:

Hello Antigravity,  =20= Pete's Gravim has answers to your problems. It
explains why the universe is expanding. Also it explains where the
energy is coming from to cause gravity, mass, magnetism and
electrical forces. I've been taught that mass just keeps on expending
the energy that it takes to cause the force of gravity endlessly. And
that there is no reduction of the mass. And there is no other
observable change in the mass after expending endless amounts of
energy as required to cause the force of gravity.


The book,  The Gods Themselves --=20= by Isaac Asimov; Paperback =20=
, explains where the energy=20= is coming from also.  It comes from a parallel universe which has energ= y in the opposite direction as ours, so that the energy can run up hill both= ways, by the time it reaches our universe again to gain energy eternally.&n= bsp; Asimov estimates in the above book that there is enough energy between=20= universes to last for trillions of years.  But we do have to be very ca= reful of how we use the energy transfer technologies, otherwise our sun coul= d explode.  You should go to the Barns and noble book store and read th= e chapter on the above idea by Asimov, since it is very detailed.  At t= he edge of the universe there are thousands of universes that cannot be seen= with present telescopes, where energy could be coming from, and which may h= ave energy running in the opposite direction as our universe.

>From your pyramid idea, I have figured out how to engineer in a water pump,=20= and  get water to run up the pyramid with sympathetic vibratory pumps,=20= and to run down the pyramid by means of gravity to generate electricity, and= to clean the ionizer's on the outside of pyramid which clean the smog in th= e atmosphere in a big city like LA. 

The Earth can be moved by satellite technologies, where the satellites get t= he energy from the sun, and then use Tesla like gravity waves beams generate= d from Tesla bulbs, tuned to the resonant frequencies of the Earth to gradua= lly move the Earth into a new orbit.  I think the pyramids, keep the Ea= rth in the proper orbit, and are used to clean the atmosphere, generate elec= tricity, and strengthen the ozone.  Pyramids just look architecturally=20= very nice, and are strong in form.  I could use Tesla energy towers ins= tead of pyramids to clean up the atmosphere with giant ionizer's, but pyrami= ds look nicer than Tesla energy towers.  Apartments can also be built i= nto the pyramid form in a city much like they are in Disney World where the=20= monorail runs through the pyramid, and which have the local water and air pu= rified by the pyramid wall ionizer's and generate healthy energy force field= s around the apartments by means of water gravity and sympathetic vibratory=20= pumps used to generate the needed electricity.

I think you should be careful about using nuclear technologies in a blast pi= t, since nuclear technologies are very dirty and dangerous.  We can avo= id using nuclear technologies by using the above satellites to move the Eart= h, and we can also generate electricity with water energy so that nuclear te= chnologies are not necessary.  This may be the warning in the bib= le, to avoid the use of the pit or the nuclear pit, to avoid the potenti= al dangers of nuclear technologies.  The movie the China Syndrome m= ay also be a warning to avoid the use of nuclear technologies, when we could= simply use cold fusion, hydorgen energy, and sympathetic water energy trans= fer technologies to do the same job as nuclear technologies.   Chi= na has to many nuclear reactors, and they could create a nuclear disaster in= the future to create the bible prophesies and nuclear disaster pit which pu= ts the Earth into the eternal bottomless pit by means of a nuclear explosion= or solar explosion caused by a nuclear war or energy disaster as Asimov war= ns us about in his book.  The winds and clouds from China after a nucle= ar disaster could reach L.A. or the USA.  Perhaps China should give up=20= using nuclear energy technologies and weapons to avoid the biblical warnings= and potential disasters.  Like you said the bible prophesies give us t= ime to change and an escape clause, perhaps we should avoid the use of nucle= ar technologies and encourage China to not use nuclear energy technologies b= ut water energy like cold fusion or hydrogen instead.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om



 --part1_84.14b7da5d.2c39d911_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 13:22:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA12213; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 13:21:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 13:21:38 -0700 Message-ID: <009401c343fb$d3a712a0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Mystery Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 13:18:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008F_01C343C1.268F9900" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"JIXJN1.0.k-2.HJ82_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51089 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C343C1.268F9900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vo, There a number of physical properties of water that are outright = peculiar, when compared to similar molecules, some of which properties = are absolutely essential to biological life. Most of these have been = explained fairly well. There are a few, however, that are open to interpretation. Recently, = Prof. Chaplin has updated his web-site with the following: http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html If anyone has a water-tight explanation for the first chart, the Vapor = pressure curves, you will get my genius-of-the-day award and everlasting = admiration. As you can see: ice, water and steam seem to obey power relationships of = 12, 8 and 4 respectively when looking at Log-Log gradients. And the fit = to the data is almost perfectly linear in those ranges. Does this mean that that there are two evenly balanced proto-phases in = liquid water that are only fully realized in the other two phases? Comments appreciated? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C343C1.268F9900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vo,
 
There a number of physical properties of water that are outright = peculiar,=20 when compared to similar molecules, some of which properties are = absolutely=20 essential to biological life. Most of these have been explained fairly=20 well.
 
There are a few, however, that are open to interpretation. = Recently, Prof.=20 Chaplin has updated his web-site with the following:
http://www.sbu.ac.uk/wat= er/strange.html
 
If anyone has a water-tight explanation for the first chart, the = Vapor=20 pressure curves, you will get my genius-of-the-day award and everlasting = admiration.
 
As you can see: ice, water and steam seem to obey power = relationships of=20 12, 8 and 4 respectively when looking at Log-Log gradients. And the fit = to the=20 data is almost perfectly linear in those ranges.
 
Does this mean that that there are two evenly balanced proto-phases = in=20 liquid water that are only fully realized in the other two phases?
 
Comments appreciated?
 
Jones
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C343C1.268F9900-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 13:22:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA12281; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 13:21:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 13:21:49 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030706132131.00b06df8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 13:21:40 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: stevek Subject: test, please delete Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"rYjyX3.0.o_2.SJ82_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51090 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 14:30:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06847; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:29:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:29:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:29:23 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: from Melbourne (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ivGoX.0.tg1.rI92_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51091 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone looking for Australian pros (not hobbyists), for a TV show about an Oz version of the Marfa Lights... (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 12:39:59 +1000 From: Chris Basile To: billb@eskimo.com Subject: from Melbourne Hello Bill Beaty - I am a researcher based in Melbourne, Australia preparing a shooting script for a documentary on an unusual light phenomenon observed in the Grampians mountains NW of Melbourne which resembles descriptions of 'ball lightning.' You may find some info on this phenomenon on the web by searching for keywords 'Grampians' and 'lights' or 'ufo' - there are a couple of anecdotal articles. I was wondering if you are aware of this sighting (which has been observed consistently for the past year at least and is ongoing) and if you would be able to recommend a researcher in Australia who takes an interest in and is informed on ball lightning and related anomalous luminescent phenomena, preferably with credentials and a serious physics background (ie not a hobbyist). I would like to find a local expert who would be willing to go to the site, observe the lights, and comment on them, and be filmed doing so. Alternately, if you can consider a research trip to Australia, you might want to be in the doco yourself. The aim of the doco is to explore the Grampians lights from the varied perspectives of geologists, physicists, local Aboriginals (who have lights stories), opticians (there is a professor who argues that it is an illusion caused by refraction/reflection and temperature inversion), ufo researchers, and others, along with comparison with other similar phenomena (as in Hessdalen in Norway). Your participation in the project, whether through contacts, advice, data or actual on-camera appearance, will be most appreciated. Many thanks; I will look forward to your reply. Sincerely, Christopher Basile. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 14:30:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA07311; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:29:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:29:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3F0894BA.5000502@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 14:29:30 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Water, et al. References: <009401c343fb$d3a712a0$0a016ea8@cpq> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030601030509030103060004" Resent-Message-ID: <"dsbgl2.0.1o1.HJ92_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51092 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------030601030509030103060004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, You've stimulated me to ask a number of questions that I've had for some time: 1. A friend of mine patented a new kind of evaporative cooler that's much more efficient than the normal swamp cooler. It scoops the hot boundary layer off of the roof to feed into the evaporation pads. The much hotter air results in a much cooler outlet temperature! My only hypothesis is that, since water vapor is much lighter than air, the water molecules in the boundary layer escape it, leaving much drier air. Does that make sense? 2. If a flat plate or airfoil is very cold, would the pressure be lower because the air molecules don't rebound as much? 3. What does "% alcohol by volume" really mean? I found that it's measured with a hygrometer, but since volumes aren't additive, one has to define if the % is before the two constituents are mixed or after or something in between. Indeed, I can conceive of actually having the absurdity of a negative number, e.g. suppose some salt disolves in water without increasing the volume, or perhaps decreasing it. Best Regards, Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona Jones Beene wrote: > Vo, > > There a number of physical properties of water that are outright > peculiar, when compared to similar molecules, some of which properties > are absolutely essential to biological life. Most of these have been > explained fairly well. > --------------030601030509030103060004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi,

You've stimulated me to ask a number of questions that I've had for some time:

1. A friend of mine patented a new kind of evaporative cooler that's much more efficient than the normal swamp cooler.
It scoops the hot boundary layer off of the roof to feed into the evaporation pads.  The much hotter air results in a much
cooler outlet temperature!  My only hypothesis is that, since water vapor is much lighter than air, the water molecules
in the boundary layer escape it, leaving much drier air.  Does that make sense?

2. If a flat plate or airfoil is very cold, would the pressure be lower because the air molecules don't rebound as much?

3. What does "% alcohol by volume" really mean?  I found that it's measured with a hygrometer, but
since volumes aren't additive, one has to define if the % is before the two constituents are mixed or after or something
in between.  Indeed, I can conceive of actually having the absurdity of  a negative number, e.g. suppose some salt disolves in water without
increasing the volume, or perhaps decreasing it.

Best Regards,

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona

Jones Beene wrote:
Vo,
 
There a number of physical properties of water that are outright peculiar, when compared to similar molecules, some of which properties are absolutely essential to biological life. Most of these have been explained fairly well.
 

--------------030601030509030103060004-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 15:13:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA27514; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:12:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:12:23 -0700 Message-ID: <00d801c3440b$4c619b20$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <009401c343fb$d3a712a0$0a016ea8@cpq> <3F0894BA.5000502@cox.net> Subject: Re: Water, et al. Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:09:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA27458 Resent-Message-ID: <"4NW4T3.0.ij6.5x92_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51093 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns writes, > You've stimulated me to ask a number of questions that I've had for some > time: > > 1. A friend of mine patented a new kind of evaporative cooler that's > much more efficient than the normal swamp cooler. > It scoops the hot boundary layer off of the roof to feed into the > evaporation pads. The much hotter air results in a much > cooler outlet temperature! My only hypothesis is that, since water > vapor is much lighter than air, the water molecules > in the boundary layer escape it, leaving much drier air. Does that make > sense? If you look at the third segment of the Chaplin site: Temperature-volume change relationship The incremental volume change increases as the square-root(3) power of the temperature above the temperature (Tsub0, 3.984°C) of minimum volume (Vsub0, 1.00003 ml/g). The conclusion is that the boundary layer will be less dense and contain a disproportionate amount of heat : therefore, skimming and cooling it preferentially should be upwards to 60+% more efficient than cooling the whole mass of water. > 2. If a flat plate or airfoil is very cold, would the pressure be lower > because the air molecules don't rebound as much? Do you mean, would a cold wing be more efficient? This gets into themodynamic tradeoffs that would require a supercomputer to quantify but I doubt if the energy to cool the wing would be worth the added lift unless it was combined with some kind of "skin effect." > 3. What does "% alcohol by volume" really mean? I found that it's > measured with a hygrometer, but > since volumes aren't additive, one has to define if the % is before the > two constituents are mixed or after or something > in between. Indeed, I can conceive of actually having the absurdity of > a negative number, e.g. suppose some salt disolves in water without > increasing the volume, or perhaps decreasing it. I think with "% alcohol by volume" they are looking for ease of computation rather than accuracy since the relative volumes of alcohol and water are pretty close to being additive, aren't they? BTW, there are some metal alloys that are denser than not only the average of the two components but also the densest component, such as some U-Li alloys which have slightly higher, not lower density than unalloyed U, indicating that the Li goes into the matrix interstices without expanding the matrix. As you say, some salts are probably similar in this regard. Regards. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 15:27:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA02626; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:26:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:26:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3F08A204.8000705@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:26:12 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water, et al. References: <009401c343fb$d3a712a0$0a016ea8@cpq> <3F0894BA.5000502@cox.net> <00d801c3440b$4c619b20$0a016ea8@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"apppm3.0.te.R8A2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51094 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones. Thanks for your prompt reply. Alcohol and water and not at all close to being additive, as I recall, something like 1 liter of water and 1 liter of alcohol yields about 1.5 liters of mixture. It was interesting to read on a website that I can't find again :-( that the word "proof" for alcohol/water mixtures came from England, where if you mixed some "proof" alcohol with gunpowder, it would explode, if "sub-proof', it would just fizzle. Jones Beene wrote: > > >BTW, there are some metal alloys that are denser than not only the average of the two components but also the densest component, such as some U-Li alloys which have slightly higher, not lower density than unalloyed U, indicating that the Li goes into the matrix interstices without expanding the matrix. As you say, some salts are probably similar in this regard. > > >There are also some metals that when stretched, actually get more cross sectional area! > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 15:59:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA20258; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:58:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:58:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3F08A973.9070104@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:57:55 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water, et al. References: <009401c343fb$d3a712a0$0a016ea8@cpq> <3F0894BA.5000502@cox.net> <00d801c3440b$4c619b20$0a016ea8@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eaGDt.0.Sy4.DcA2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51095 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Here's something else that I pondered for a while, before realizing I didn't have the background to analyze the thermodynamics: A Mr. Clark invented an energy maching that used the temperature difference between the top of a mountain and the base ( 3o F/1000 ft lapse rate) to make an engine by running a two large pipes up a mountain and using the density difference of water to create a flow ( convection engine ). It occurred to me that since water is most dense at 4o C. one could have a 4o C. water flow down the mountain, where it could be split into two streams, one above 4o C and one below, both less dense, and both sent back up the mountain to recombine to produce 4o C again. I'd guess that then energy required to split the water into two streams would be greater than that one could obtain from the convection flow, unless something like a vortex tube would suffice. Best Regards, Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 16:06:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA23931; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:05:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:05:27 -0700 Message-ID: <010501c34412$b8bb7960$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <009401c343fb$d3a712a0$0a016ea8@cpq> <3F0894BA.5000502@cox.net> <00d801c3440b$4c619b20$0a016ea8@cpq> <3F08A204.8000705@cox.net> Subject: Re: Water, et al. Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:02:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA23892 Resent-Message-ID: <"-1V1q.0.qr5.tiA2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51096 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Are you sure about that? > Alcohol and water and not at all close to being additive, as I recall, > something like 1 liter of water and 1 > liter of alcohol yields about 1.5 liters of mixture. Isn't the implication of that ethyl alcohol (density .79 g/mL) mixed with H2O (density of 1 g/ml) in equal portions would give a 50 proof product density of ~180/1.5= 1.2 g/ml ! Twenty percent more dense than water I don't think so! I found this this table with a quick google search: ethanol by volume: 30 % 45% 50% 60% 75% 85% 95% mass (g): 4.7505 4.470 4.581 4.505 4.280 4.191 4.000 density (g/mL): .950 .894 .916 .901 .856 .838 .800 So it looks to me like they are very nearly perfectly additive. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 16:12:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA25728; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:11:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:11:25 -0700 Message-ID: <011e01c34413$8e14c8a0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <009401c343fb$d3a712a0$0a016ea8@cpq> <3F0894BA.5000502@cox.net> <00d801c3440b$4c619b20$0a016ea8@cpq> <3F08A973.9070104@cox.net> Subject: Re: Water, et al. Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:08:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA25704 Resent-Message-ID: <"Yh68K3.0.wH6.ToA2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51097 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns writes, > Here's something else that I pondered for a while, before realizing I > didn't have the background to analyze the thermodynamics: That one won't fly Hoyt, but check out this patent from our own Fred Sparber which does effectively exploit that 4 degree density anomaly ! http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html United States Patent 3,943,889 Frederick Sparber March 16, 1976 "Heat distributing tanks for retarding surface freezing" Abstract Apparatus for preventing or retarding the freezing of water on a surface of a body of water, such as in a stock tank, includes a tank containing a quantity of volatile fluid, which functions as a heat pipe to distribute heat from a lower portion in the body of water to the surface to prevent ice on the surface from forming thereabout. The tank is ballasted to float just at the surface of the water, and additionally is anchored to control the positional location of the tank in the body of water. In one embodiment, a heat containing collar is employed surrounding the top portion of the tank, and within which the tank is free to move to contain the distributed heat. In another embodiment, the entire surface of the water in a stock tank is covered with an insulation layer having holes of spaced relationship to receive a plurality of heat pipe tanks. In another embodiment of the invention, a heat pipe tank is connected to a control mechanism of a fill valve in a stock tank to control the water level during freezing temperature conditions From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 16:34:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA03907; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:33:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:33:16 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <178.1d37f358.2c3a0b6e@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 19:31:58 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Where does all of the energy come from & Bible Warnings To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, wpeterson2@comcast.net, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, mediator@mint.ocn.ne.jp CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_178.1d37f358.2c3a0b6e_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"1Wd-f2.0.ry.x6B2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51098 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_178.1d37f358.2c3a0b6e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have placed quotes below on Tesla electropulsion technology on how to change the properties of Earth's atmosphere and gravity to move the Earth by means of electropulsion properties of the Earth in the solar atmosphere. And I have placed the nuclear facts and equations needed at the end of the email on how to transmute nuclear waste into lead or gold by accelerating time to accelerate radioactive decay. "If Tesla had continued to increase the Earth's charge with his gadgetry, he could have thrown the Earth's timing off, slowed it down, and possibly caused it to drift towards the sun Pg 36" Pyramid technology may be used to modify the Earths atmosphere to move the Earth by means of electropulsion. An electropulsive energy beam coming from water hydrogen fusion energy in a pyramid can change their Earths atmosphere to cause it to move the Earth. Pyramids and electropulsive beams may also be used to make the pits that you refer to by means of creating magnetic energy vortexes, vacuums or black wholes beneath them to accelerate time and nuclear decay in nuclear waste to cause it to decay a million fold and turn it into gold or lead as I explain below. And the blackwholes or energy vortexes beneath the pyramid can also effect the Earth's rotation speed and atmospheric properties that can change how gravity effects Earth, and how Earth moves through the space vacuum. You will have to take into account all of the magnetic vortexes on Earth, the magnetic grid, and the properties of the atmosphere as I have explained below from quotes on Tesla electropulsion technology and Earth's atmospherics, that affect gravity to change the Earth's orbit properly. In a sense we are moving the Earth through the space vacuum much like a space ship, by means of electropulsion and antigravity technologies, and by changing the properties of the Earth's atmosphere as the quotes below explain in detail. We already have cold fusion technologies that use water and hydrogen to create cold fusion by means of electrolysis and chemical means, so that nuclear wastes are not needed to create cold fusion but water and hydorgen is. But it would be nice to be able to break down nuclear waste with fusion technologies, if the water or waste sent to the pyramid had nuclear waste in it due to a nuclear disaster such as in Cherenoble. I am not sure if cold fusion will break up nuclear waste. Nuclear waste is based on the half life of the atomic properties of the nuclear particles. Radioactive elements decay until they become lead or gold. If we can accelerate the decay rate of a radioactive element by changing the rate of time a million fold beneath the pyramid by creating a black whole, vacuum or magnetic vortex beneath the pyramid we can accelerate the half life of the radioactive elements to decay until they become lead or gold in a matter of minutes. We presently have means of using Tesla electropulsion and energy beams, emf waves, magnets and nuclear accelerators to change the speed of time and direction of time, so that we can easily eliminate nuclear waste by accelerating the decay rate with emf waves and magnetic accelerators. We can create magnetic vortexes, vacuums, and black wholes by means of nuclear implosion and vacuum creation technologies to accelerate time, and we can place the nuclear waste into the black whole or magnetic vortex to be accelerated. Here below are the quotes from Tesla and the Occult Ether Physics book by William Lyne on how to change the gravity in the atmosphere to move the Earth: "Tesla's electropulsion utilizes externally projected IR-to visible frequency radiation of very high voltage, to cause the ether or Omni to assert its "inertia resistance", combined with low frequency internal waves to create the polarized rotary electromagnetic tubules, which instantaneously synthesis momentum, by boring through the ether filled space, to propel a space craft or a planet through it. Pg 19 " "The Earth orbits the sun at approximately 18.5 miles per second (66,600 mph). The solar system is orbiting the center of the Milky Way much faster, and the Milky Way orbits the Magallanic Clouds much faster and so forth... In all the Earth's velocity and polarity relative to the ether continually varies according to its rotation, orbital position, and galactic cycle. Pg 35" "According to W.B. Morton ..., an increase in charge of a body increases its virtual mass which increases the work required to move it by amount 2e^2/3ac^2. pg 36" "Tesla discovered that by using a low frequency beam-directed pulse, he could cause, at the quarter wavelength, the eruption of a large electromagnetic pulse which could, by carrying a much higher exciting wave excite the atmosphere gases in a region to explosively expand them, followed by a tremendous implosion and the absorption of a great amount of heat in the area, causing immediate freezing. For example, by using a low frequency of 60 cps, with a wavelength of 3,1000 miles, directed by carrier-beam, a pulse could be made to erupt at one quarter wavelenght-775 miles, corrected to 751 miles by velocity factor. By superimposing an exiting frequency of say 50 megahertz or so, the atmosphere gases could be excited to cause a "cold implosion", which absorbs heat. By altering the wavelength and the direction of the propagation the results could be delivered to any terrestrial point pg 25" According to Tesla the electromagnetic interaction is 10^40 times stronger than the gravitation reaction. And Tesla created electropulsive missiles using wireless energy, by a power beam from the ground that could move the Earth around 1934. "Tesla realized that all solid bodies contain "electrical content", and that the behave as resonant cavities which interact electromagnetically with rapidly varying electrostatic forces and ether to determine their gravitational interactions and movements in space. These theories were tested and confirmed to some degree in his 1899 Colorodo Springs experiments Pg 5 to 20" "Like hydrogen gas, there is some elasticity, due to the compressibility of the magnetic fields, so it is an elastic solid. .. Empty space is actually packed almost solid with very fine ether or matter which oscillates at high frequencies, and interstellar space is a vacuum which contains fine matter particles of high cosmic energy ether or gravity waves. High voltage forces, either in electrical discharge or in radiation is necessary to break the bonds in fine matter in vacuums. Pg 14" The earth rotates based on the vacuum in space which is actually filled with tiny matter particles that can be affected by high frequency waves. "The Earth has a minimum negative surface charge of aprox. 20 esu/cm^2. This is an atmospheric phenomenon due in part to the ionizing effects of cosmic radiation, but cannot be explained without reference to the velocity of the Earth through the fine matter ether vacuum. The relatively non-conductive, insulative and dielectric properties of the atmosphere play a part. Beneath the earth's surface charge, the semi-conductive crust contains a vas ocean of electrons. The Earth's surface charge is more or less a constant, due to the Earth's surface area, varying somewhat by altitude due to changes in the atmospheric pressure and moisture content of the air as well as the incident of the cosmic radiation and its frequencies. Pg 14" "This leaves the excess positive mass of the earth, the semi-conductive surface of which is capable of receiving and maintaining a large negative charge surplus, mostly brought to earth by the thousands of lightening bolts per second, and retained due to the dielectric and insulative properties of the atmosphere. Pg 15" " The constant electrical discharges from the atmosphere are driven by the cosmic motion of the Earth which converts the electrostatic charges to currents. Since the atmosphere gases are insulators, the mostly alkaline, semiconductive crust of the Earth is largely an electron donor material, which maintains a large reservoir of negative charges insulated by the atmosphere. Cosmic rays striking the rarefied light gases of the ionosphere, maintain its positive charge. The effects of gravity also help, since helium and hydrogen both light electropositive gases, gravitate to the ionosphere. Between the ionosphere, c 620 miles above, and the Earth's surface, there is a gradient of c. 150 volts/meter, totaling about 176 million volts, creating a considerable electric field, but the electric field extends far beyond the ionosphere. This electric field creates electrical displacement in the fine matter ether of the vacuum or Omni within its reach, which is the cause of gravity. .... There is no significant gravitational effect of the Earth's field above this electric field. Since Earth's magnetic field encompasses the moon, so does Earth's electric field. Pg 15" " As Earth spins, the surface velocity-- and atmosphere velocity with it, at any point varies according to its distance from Earth's center. The voltage potential between the atmospheric gasses at higher altitude and the ionosphere is lower .. The differences in the electrostatic potentials illustrates why there are differences in relative displacement of the vacuum ether clouds, within the Earth's gravity field and within bodies moving within that field, with a degree of displacement which is directly proportional to difference in so-called gravitational force and the dielectric strain. pg 16" "This is pertinent to electropulsion, because we must diminish, reverse, magnify, and otherwise control this displacement in order to instantly synthesis and control inertia, momentum and gravity. pg 16" I have placed the information and equations below for nuclear decay at the end of this email: Natural Elements primarily heavy elements have unstable nuclei that disintegrate to emit various rays - alpha, beta, gamma rays. Alpha and beta particles bend in opposite directions in magnetic and electric fields. Alpha particles are positively charged and beta particles are negatively charged. Alpha particles stop in a few centimeters of air and are the nuclei of helium atoms. Beta rays are stoped in a few meters of air and a few millimeters of tissue and they are high speed electrons. Gamma rays are physcially identical to x-rays and usually have much higher energy than x-rays. Each element has a specific number of protons in the nucleaus, but the number of neutrons may vary. Nuclei of a given element with different numbers of neutrons are called isotopes of the element. If they are not radioactive they are called stable isotopes and if they are radioactive they are called radioisotopes. Carbon has two stable isotopes (12C and 13C) and several radioisotopes (11C, 14C, 15C. Most elements do not have naturally occuring radioisotopes, but radioisotopes of all elements can be produced artificially. Radionucleides is used when several radioactive elements are involved. A radioactive element decays until it becomes lead. All radionuclides except P emit photons. Some beta rays are positive (positron) instead of negative (electron). Some radionuclei that are to positive decay such as 18F. Succesive steps through which 238 U decays to become stable 206 Pb. Element Symbol Half-Life Type of Radiation Uranium 238/92U 4.55 x 10^9 years alpha Thorium 324/90Th 24.1 days beta gama Proctactinium 234/91Pa 1.14 minutes beta gamma Uranium 234/92U 2.69 x 10^5 years alpha Thorium 230/90Th 8.22 x 10^4 years alpha gamma Radium 226/88Ra 1600 years alpha gamma Radon 222/86Rn 3.8 days alpha Polonium 218/84Po 3.05 min alpha Lead 214/82Pb 26.8 min beta gamma Bismuth 214/83Bi 19.7 min alpha beta gamma Polonium 214/84Po 1.5 x 10^-4 sec alpha Lead 210/82Pb 22.2 years beta gamma Bismuth 210/83Bi 4.97 days beta Polonium 210/84Po 139 days alpha gamma Lead 206/82Pb stable The basic equation describing radioactive decay is: A=A0e^-rt where A is the activity in disintigrations per second, A0 is the initial activity, r si the decay constant, and t is the time since the activity was A0. A=rN where N is the number of radioactive atoms. The unit of radioactivity is the curie (Ci or C) and is equal to 3.7 x 10^10 isintigrations per second. 1Ci= 3.7 x 10^10 Bq(becquerel). Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_178.1d37f358.2c3a0b6e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I  have placed quotes below on Tesla electropulsi= on technology on how to change the properties of Earth's atmosphere and grav= ity to move the Earth by means of electropulsion properties of the Earth in=20= the solar atmosphere.  And I have placed the nuclear facts and equation= s needed at the end of the email on how to transmute nuclear waste into lead= or gold by accelerating time to accelerate radioactive decay.

"If Tesla had continued to increase the Earth's charge with his gadgetry,= he could have thrown the Earth's timing off, slowed it down, and possibly c= aused it to drift towards the sun Pg 36"

Pyramid technology may be used to modify the Earths atmosphere to move the E= arth by means of electropulsion.  An electropulsive energy beam coming=20= from water hydrogen fusion energy in a pyramid can change their Earths atmos= phere to cause it to move the Earth.   Pyramids and electropulsive= beams may also be used to make the pits that you refer to by means of creat= ing magnetic energy vortexes, vacuums or black wholes beneath them to accele= rate time and nuclear decay in nuclear waste to cause it to decay a million=20= fold and turn it into gold or lead as I explain below.   And the b= lackwholes or energy vortexes beneath the pyramid can also effect the Earth'= s rotation speed and atmospheric properties that can change how gravity effe= cts Earth, and how Earth moves through the space vacuum.  You will have= to take into account all of the magnetic vortexes on Earth, the magnetic gr= id, and the  properties of the atmosphere as I have explained below fro= m quotes on Tesla electropulsion technology and Earth's atmospherics, that a= ffect gravity to change the Earth's orbit properly.   In a sense w= e are moving the Earth through the space vacuum much like a space ship, by m= eans of electropulsion and antigravity technologies, and by changing the pro= perties of the Earth's atmosphere as the quotes below explain in detail.
We already have cold fusion technologies that use water and hydrogen to crea= te cold fusion by means of electrolysis and chemical means, so that nuclear=20= wastes are not needed to create cold fusion but water and hydorgen is. = But it would be nice to be able to break down nuclear waste with fusion tec= hnologies, if the water or waste sent to the pyramid had nuclear waste in it= due to a nuclear disaster such as in Cherenoble.  I am not sure if col= d fusion will break up nuclear waste.  Nuclear waste is based on the ha= lf life of the atomic properties of the nuclear particles.  Radioactive= elements decay until they become lead or gold.  If we can accelerate t= he decay rate of a radioactive element by changing the rate of time a millio= n fold beneath the pyramid by creating a black whole, vacuum or magnetic vor= tex beneath the pyramid we can accelerate the half life of the radioactive e= lements to decay until they become lead or gold in a matter of minutes. = ; 

We presently have means of using Tesla electropulsion and energy beams, emf=20= waves, magnets and nuclear accelerators to change the speed of time and dire= ction of time, so that we can easily eliminate nuclear waste by accelerating= the decay rate with emf waves and magnetic accelerators.  We can creat= e magnetic vortexes, vacuums, and black wholes by means of nuclear implosion= and vacuum creation technologies to accelerate time, and we can place the n= uclear waste into the black whole or magnetic vortex to be accelerated. = ; 

Here below are the quotes from Tesla and the Occult Ether Physics book by Wi= lliam Lyne on how to change the gravity in the atmosphere to move the Earth:=

"Tesla's electropulsion utilizes externally projected IR-to visible frequenc= y radiation of very high voltage, to cause the ether or Omni to assert its "= inertia resistance", combined with low frequency internal waves to create th= e polarized rotary electromagnetic tubules, which instantaneously synthesis=20= momentum, by boring through the ether filled space, to propel a space craft=20= or a planet through it. Pg 19 "

"The Earth orbits the sun at approximately 18.5 miles per second (66,600 mph= ). The solar system is orbiting the center of the Milky Way much faster, and= the Milky Way orbits the Magallanic Clouds much faster and so forth... In a= ll the Earth's velocity and polarity relative to the ether continually varie= s according to its rotation, orbital position, and galactic cycle. Pg 35"
"According to W.B. Morton ..., an increase in charge of a body increases its= virtual mass which increases the work required to move it by amount 2e^2/3a= c^2. pg 36"

"Tesla discovered that by using a low frequency beam-directed pulse, he coul= d cause, at the quarter wavelength, the eruption of a large electromagnetic=20= pulse which could, by carrying a much higher exciting wave excite the atmosp= here gases in a region to explosively expand them, followed by a tremendous=20= implosion and the absorption of a great amount of heat in the area, causing=20= immediate freezing.  For example, by using a low frequency of 60 cps, w= ith a wavelength of 3,1000 miles, directed by carrier-beam, a pulse could be= made to erupt at one quarter wavelenght-775 miles, corrected to 751 miles b= y velocity factor.  By superimposing an exiting frequency of say 50 meg= ahertz or so, the atmosphere gases could be excited to cause a "cold implosi= on", which absorbs heat.  By altering the wavelength and the direction=20= of the propagation the results could be delivered to any terrestrial point p= g 25"

According to Tesla the electromagnetic interaction is 10^40 times stronger t= han the gravitation reaction. And Tesla created electropulsive missiles usin= g wireless energy, by a power beam from the ground that could move the Earth= around 1934. 

"Tesla realized that all solid bodies contain "electrical content", and that= the behave as resonant cavities which interact electromagnetically with rap= idly varying electrostatic forces and ether to determine their gravitational= interactions and movements in space. These theories were tested and confirm= ed to some degree in his 1899 Colorodo Springs experiments Pg 5 to 20"

"Like hydrogen gas, there is some elasticity, due to the compressibility of=20= the magnetic fields, so it is an elastic solid. .. Empty space is actually p= acked almost solid with very fine ether or matter which oscillates at high f= requencies, and interstellar space is a vacuum which contains fine matter pa= rticles of high cosmic energy ether or gravity waves.  High voltage for= ces, either in electrical discharge or in radiation is necessary to break th= e bonds in fine matter in vacuums. Pg 14"

The earth rotates based on the vacuum in space which is actually filled with= tiny matter particles that can be affected by high frequency waves.

"The Earth has a minimum negative surface charge of aprox. 20 esu/cm^2. = ; This is an atmospheric phenomenon due in part to the ionizing effects of c= osmic radiation, but cannot be explained without reference to the velocity o= f the Earth through the fine matter ether vacuum.  The relatively non-c= onductive, insulative and dielectric properties of the atmosphere play a par= t.   Beneath the earth's surface charge, the semi-conductive crust= contains a vas ocean of electrons.  The Earth's surface charge is more= or less a constant, due to the Earth's surface area, varying somewhat by al= titude due to changes in the atmospheric pressure and moisture content of th= e air as well as the incident of the cosmic radiation and its frequencies. P= g 14"

"This leaves the excess positive mass of the earth, the semi-conductive surf= ace of which is capable of receiving and maintaining a large negative charge= surplus, mostly brought to earth by the thousands of lightening bolts per s= econd, and retained due to the dielectric and insulative properties of the a= tmosphere.  Pg 15"

" The constant electrical discharges from the atmosphere are driven by the c= osmic motion of the Earth which converts the electrostatic charges to curren= ts.  Since the atmosphere gases are  insulators, the mostly alkali= ne, semiconductive crust of the Earth is largely an electron donor material,= which maintains a large reservoir of negative charges insulated by the atmo= sphere. Cosmic rays striking the rarefied light gases of the ionosphere, mai= ntain its positive charge.  The effects of gravity also help, since hel= ium and hydrogen both light electropositive gases, gravitate to the ionosphe= re.  Between the ionosphere, c 620 miles above, and the Earth's surface= , there is a gradient of c. 150 volts/meter, totaling about 176 million volt= s, creating a considerable electric field, but the electric field extends fa= r beyond the ionosphere. This electric field creates electrical displacement= in the fine matter ether of the vacuum or Omni within its reach, which is t= he cause of gravity. .... There is no significant gravitational effect of th= e Earth's field above this electric field.  Since Earth's magnetic fiel= d encompasses the moon, so does Earth's electric field. Pg 15"

" As Earth spins, the surface velocity-- and atmosphere velocity with it, at= any point varies according to its distance from Earth's center.  The v= oltage potential between the atmospheric gasses at higher altitude and the i= onosphere is lower .. The differences in the electrostatic potentials illust= rates why there are differences in relative displacement of the vacuum ether= clouds, within the Earth's gravity field and within bodies moving within th= at field,  with a degree of displacement which is directly proportional= to difference in so-called gravitational force and the dielectric strain. p= g 16"

"This is pertinent to electropulsion, because we must diminish, reverse, mag= nify, and otherwise control this displacement in order to instantly synthesi= s and control inertia, momentum and gravity. pg 16"

I have placed the information and equations below for nuclear decay at the e= nd of this email:

Natural Elements primarily heavy elements have unstable nuclei
that disintegrate to emit various rays - alpha, beta, gamma rays.
      
           Alpha and bet= a particles bend in opposite directions in magnetic
            and elect= ric fields.  Alpha particles are positively charged
      and beta particles are negatively charged= . Alpha particles
stop in a few centimeters of air and are the nuclei of helium
atoms. Beta rays are stoped in a few meters of air and a few
millimeters of tissue and they are high speed electrons. Gamma
rays are physcially identical to x-rays and usually have much
higher energy than x-rays.

Each element has a specific number of protons in the nucleaus,
but the number of neutrons may vary. Nuclei of a given element
with different numbers of neutrons are called isotopes of the
element.  If they are not radioactive they are called stable isotopes and if they are radioactive they are called radioisotopes.<= BR> Carbon has two stable isotopes (12C and 13C) and several radioisotop= es
(11C, 14C, 15C. Most elements do not have naturally occuring radiois= otopes,         but radioisotopes of all= elements can be produced artificially.      &nbs= p;  Radionucleides is used when several radioactive elements are involv= ed. A         radioactive element decays= until it becomes lead.
All radionuclides except P emit photons.
Some beta rays are positive (positron) instead of negative (electron= ).
Some radionuclei that are to positive decay such as 18F.

Succesive steps through which 238 U decays to become stable 206 Pb.<= BR>
Element Symbol Half-Life Type of Radiation Uranium 238/92U 4.55 x 10^9 years alpha
Thorium 324/90Th 24.1 days beta gama
Proctactinium 234/91Pa 1.14 minutes beta gamma Uranium 234/92U 2.69 x 10^5 years alpha
Thorium 230/90Th 8.22 x 10^4 years alpha gamma
Radium 226/88Ra 1600 years alpha gamma
Radon 222/86Rn 3.8 days alpha
Polonium 218/84Po 3.05 min alpha
Lead 214/82Pb 26.8 min beta gamma
Bismuth 214/83Bi 19.7 min alpha beta gamma
Polonium 214/84Po 1.5 x 10^-4 sec alpha
Lead 210/82Pb 22.2 years beta gamma
Bismuth 210/83Bi 4.97 days beta
Polonium 210/84Po 139 days alpha gamma
Lead 206/82Pb stable


The basic equation describing radioactive decay is:

A=3DA0e^-rt where A is the activity in disintigrations per second, A= 0 is the
initial activity, r si the decay constant, and t is the time since t= he
activity was A0. A=3DrN where N is the number of radioactive atom= s.

The unit of radioactivity is the curie (Ci or C) and is equal to 3.7= x 10^10
isintigrations per second. 1Ci=3D 3.7 x 10^10 Bq(becquerel).



Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om


 --part1_178.1d37f358.2c3a0b6e_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 18:12:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA12415; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 18:12:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 18:12:02 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.243] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John B" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Gyro Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 01:11:26 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jul 2003 01:11:26.0592 (UTC) FILETIME=[B06C8800:01C34424] Resent-Message-ID: <"aVwRz3.0.v13.XZC2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51099 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I don't know if this could possibly be the answer to your gyro mystery Horace, but there is one way you could precess a gyro without feeling any appreciable precessional force. Take a gyro that consists of two rotating balanced weights. This way the precessional force would vary, at some moments it would be greater than the same mass in the form of a ring, and at other times it would be virtually nil as the two orbiting masses line up with the precessional force. Though you would need to be very fast as you have to complete the action over just a few degrees of rotation, so at high rpm's this would impossible by hand. _________________________________________________________________ Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN Personals! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 6 21:36:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA32483; Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:35:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:35:40 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030707053440.0067495c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 05:34:40 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"R_ZME3.0.Tx7.RYF2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51100 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The behaviour of a shell of gyros fixed in a frame leads to some interesting possibilities. Consider the boundary condition where the frame is extremely stiff compared to the gyros. The "stiffness" of the gyros will depend on their speed, mass and radius of gyration. When the ratio [frame stiffness]/[gyro stiffness] tends to infinity then though rotating the shell will cause the gyros to generate enormous forces, these forces will be balanced by frame reaction, and no strain energy will be transferred to the frame from the gyros. The situation as far as the strain energy of the frame is concerned is the same as if the gyros were not rotating at all. At this boundary condition, it is entirely reasonable to think that the inertia of the ensemble as a whole will he the same for running gyros as for stationary gyros. However, if on the other hand the frame is very unstiff (elastic) in relation to the gyros, then the gyros will twist away merrily and transfer lots of their "strain energy" to the frame. In so doing the gyros will slow down. Now under these circumstances the whole shell is supplying two classes of energy. The inertial energy to start the shell rotating and the control energy to initiate the transfer of twist strain energy from the gyros to the frame. I don't know how large this control energy will be, but I cannot see how, logically, it can be zero. But the twisting frame raises yet another interesting possibility. The twist strain energy of the frame is increasing whilst the "strain energy" of the gyros is decreasing. Now suppose there comes a point where the condition is such that the twist strain energy of the frame off-loads itself back into the gyros in the same way as the strain energy of an unstiff testing machine off-loads back into a concrete specimen taken beyond the maximum stress and showers one with shrapnel as the specimen explodes. Would the gyros flip over to their 180 degree position like the tippy tops described in Peter Warlow's intriguing book "Reversing Earth"? If one has a gyro in gimbals which are not very accurately made then playing around with such a device might well lead to 180 degree flipping as described before in this thread. But more interestingly still, if the geographical earth is thought of as a magnetic gyro in a frame then one can see that when the magnetic pole wanders far enough from the geographical pole the outer earth will flip over in precisely the way outlined in Warlow's thesis. The following is an interesting quote in relation to Warlow's insight. ============================================ The field has even completely collapsed and reversed innumerable times, which have been recorded in the magnetic alignment of lava as it cooled. One theory to explain magnetic pole reversals is related to large meteorite impacts, which could trigger ice ages. The movement of water from the oceans to high latitudes would accelerate the rotation of the Earth, which would disrupt magmatic convection cells into chaos. These may reverse when a new pattern is established. Another theory is that the reversals are triggered by a slight change the angular momentum of the earth as a direct result of the impacts. These theories are challenged by the controversial Reversing Earth Theory, which proposes that the entire crust could shift and reverse the true poles in a matter of days, but that the molten core would remain stationary, resulting in apparent magnetic reversal. The Sun would then rise in the opposite direction. ============================================ Personally, I go along with Warlow on this and think that his ideas are only unaccepted for the same reasons as the ideas of shifting continents were unaccepted early in the last century. Also, the whole idea is apocalyptically scarey, and like death, an idea people that would prefer not to think about. What do the readers of Vortex think, eh? After all, since a Vortex involves twisting thingees, it's a very appropriate subject for this discussion group. :-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 7 01:46:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA24524; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 01:46:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 01:46:03 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 15:43:41 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20030707053440.0067495c@pop.freeserve.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"RDUsf.0.6_5.BDJ2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51101 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer@grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] > Sent: Monday, 2003 July 07 12:35 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter >x< > But more interestingly still, if the > geographical earth is thought of as a > magnetic gyro in a frame then one can > see that when the magnetic pole wanders > far enough from the geographical pole the > outer earth will flip over in precisely > the way outlined in Warlow's thesis. Probably not. The angular momentum of the Earth's crust is not going anywhere without some cosmic impact of magnitude sufficient to thoroughly sterilize the entire planet. A major asteroid wouldn't even change the calendar. The magnetic reversals you refer to are very real, and the accompanying changes are probably just as catastrohic as you imagine, but the crust is not going to simply slosh around. If it does there won't be anything left, as the effort of translating all that momentum would shred the crust utterly, not to mention ocean surges. The reversals do not accompany drastic changes in geological structure but they do seem to accompany severe climate/drainage effects. A river drainage under one magnetism seems to continue to be a river drainage under the next, but with change in sedimentation types. Don't get to excited about the prospect of the crust cutting loose and sloshing around anytime soon. It would be more productive to try and find cheap real estate in currently arid regions which might get more rain after the next major war finishes off what little ecology we have left. > > The following is an interesting quote in > relation to Warlow's insight. > > ============================================ > The field has even completely collapsed > and reversed innumerable times, which have > been recorded in the magnetic alignment of > lava as it cooled. One theory to explain > magnetic pole reversals is related to large > meteorite impacts, which could trigger ice > ages. The movement of water from the oceans > to high latitudes would accelerate the > rotation of the Earth, which would disrupt > magmatic convection cells into chaos. These > may reverse when a new pattern is > established. Another theory is that the > reversals are triggered by a slight change > the angular momentum of the earth as a > direct result of the impacts. These > theories are challenged by the > controversial Reversing Earth Theory, > which proposes that the entire crust > could shift and reverse the true poles > in a matter of days, but that the molten > core would remain stationary, resulting > in apparent magnetic reversal. The Sun > would then rise in the opposite direction. > ============================================ > > Personally, I go along with Warlow on this and think > that his ideas are only unaccepted for the same > reasons as the ideas of shifting continents were > unaccepted early in the last century. > > Also, the whole idea is apocalyptically > scarey, and like death, an idea people that > would prefer not to think about. What people don't like to think about is how preserved wood (as in layers of tree wood) is found between beds of limestone, when drilling for oil. Or how short the transition from being a coral reef to being a hilltop, sans vulcanism, can be (a matter of hours?) The 'powers that be' don't even like to hear it mentioned. When queried, the official answer is a vague evasion of considering the forces necessary to create such an abrupt transition. The answer is more local tectonics, but the implications are global. It is probably something much more involved than a simply gyro effect, and a lot more scary if you like to worry about things like that. > What do the readers of Vortex think, eh? After all, > since a Vortex involves twisting thingees, it's a > very appropriate subject for this discussion group. :-) > > Frank Grimer Win some lose some, I guess. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 7 01:47:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA24673; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 01:46:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 01:46:29 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: RE: A note on the Aquino stuff Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 15:44:05 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <03d901c34185$f4c73e60$6401a8c0@colinqamd1200> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Ezj1s.0.M16.bDJ2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51102 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a very interesting phenomenon, but I can see clearly I would need an exorbitant amount of time and funds to develop this beyond a microscopic effect. It was simply a spur of the moment realization that I had the basic materials to test this, while resting between other experiments. Until I have spark of an idea about how to economically increase the effect, I see no feasible way forward in my current cash-poor situation. The light bulb was a flourescent 'ring' type bulb - as opposed to the normal, long cylindrical tyoe you see in ceiling fixtures. I don't recall seeing these until I came to Asia, aside from in the 'illuminated magnifying lens' inspection lamps. It is 20 watts (not 27 - illegible) I was 'weighing' the bulb - not stars, of which I had none at that location. The frequency of the mosquito swatter power was 1694 hz, but I had no reliable method to check the voltage or current as I didn't want to inadvertently blow out my meter as I was hundreds of km and precious cash/time from any replacement. > -----Original Message----- > From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin@rogers.com] > Sent: Friday, 2003 July 04 00:10 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: A note on the Aquino stuff > > > Can you thermally wrap the flourescent tube sufficiently to prevent heat > loss for long enough to re-do the scale measurements? > > Colin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "explorecraft" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:59 AM > Subject: A note on the Aquino stuff > > > > > > Can't remember offhand who said it, > > but as I was rummaging through old stuff > > I came across the note someone posted about > > testing positive for the Aquino effect with flourescent plastic stars. > > > > The weight change was microscopic, well beyond any measurement > > capabilities I have (I am back in the swamps, very primitive lab, > > and all my major electronic gear back at home). > > > > But I remembered another post made about flourescent lights- > > that if Aquino was correct, flourescent lights should decrease > in weight > > when lit up. > > > > And, lo and behold, I have here a primitive balance - 2.5 m of PVC pipe > > suspended by twine, an old flourescent bulb, as well as the > > guts of an old 3v mosquito swatter. > > > > I hooked up the bulb (27w? 220v circle type flourescent lamp) > > to the mosquito swatter output (works well for a light...) > > and rigged it up on the balance, counterweighted by a 2kg mass. > > > > And I observed what appeared to be a *miniscule* loss of mass, > > although the caveat woud be in artifacts caused by any em field > > emitted by the bulb. being circular, as well as being extremely low > power, > > I believe what I saw was genuine, whether it is a loss of mass or > > whether it is just the energy radiance acting as as countering force > > to gravity I don't know. > > > > I repeated the experiment several times, the result was consistent. > > > > From what I saw, I guess when the light's on, it gets light. > > > > Until someone does this with precision scales to illuminate the > concept.. > > ... cheers > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 7 03:43:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA26185; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 03:42:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 03:42:40 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.243] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John B" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gyro Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 10:42:08 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jul 2003 10:42:08.0767 (UTC) FILETIME=[6A59C8F0:01C34474] Resent-Message-ID: <"sB_Z01.0.3P6.WwK2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51103 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've made a diagram to make my idea more easily understood. Top mass is pushed into the screen when gyro is forced to precess. (not applicible to side view) Side View O CCW rotation of gyro The bottom mass moves out of the screen with precession. Legend: . Gyro axle I Arms holding Masses O Weights - Second Axis of rotation ^,<,> arrows = Gyro axle (side view only) Virtually no precessional force as the masses align. However when the gyro rotates another 90 degrees: Side View ^ ^ ---O¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª.¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ª¡ªO--- =======O= ¨‹ ¨‹ Legend: ¡ª¡ª Arms holding weights Now the precessional forces are fully present. In the perfect example of a 2 dimensional gyro, there would be absolutely zero precessional force for an instant. >From: "John B" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Gyro >Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 01:11:26 +0000 > > >I don't know if this could possibly be the answer to your gyro mystery >Horace, but there is one way you could precess a gyro without feeling any >appreciable precessional force. >Take a gyro that consists of two rotating balanced weights. > >This way the precessional force would vary, at some moments it would be >greater than the same mass in the form of a ring, and at other times it >would be virtually nil as the two orbiting masses line up with the >precessional force. > >Though you would need to be very fast as you have to complete the action >over just a few degrees of rotation, so at high rpm's this would impossible >by hand. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN >Personals! > _________________________________________________________________ Download MSN Messenger @ http://messenger.xtramsn.co.nz - talk to family and friends overseas! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 7 06:07:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA06989; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 06:05:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 06:05:36 -0700 Message-ID: <006801c3447f$f7ec4de0$df10b83f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: AquaFuel Contender? Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 07:04:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94074d4168d13cfee15a483fd4f2ac45976350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"ju0mJ2.0._i1.W0N2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51104 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Electrically Heated Carbon Rods will react with CO2 gas stored on-board on a fuel cell-powered vehicle to form carbon monoxide which can react with on-board stored water at low temperature to get the shift reaction: C (12 lbs) ~ 1200 F + CO2 (44 lbs)---> 2 CO (56 lbs) 2 CO (56 lbs) + 2 H2O (36 lbs) ---> 2 CO2 (88 lbs) + 2 H2 ( 4 lbs). That gives 28 lbs of "stored weight" per pound of Hydrogen, with seemingly less bother than the Aquafuel process which is doing essentially the same thing with more energy loss. Regards Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 7 07:13:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA13050; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 07:08:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 07:08:25 -0700 Message-ID: <007801c34488$be05d480$df10b83f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <006801c3447f$f7ec4de0$df10b83f@computer> Subject: Re: AquaFuel Contender? Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:07:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940abf707547edd991f8050bd16cedd58da350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"Wrreu3.0.iB3.PxN2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51105 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Then again, you can do the same thing by introducing water under high pressure into a small pressure chamber containing the heated carbon "fuel rod": C (12 lbs) ~ 2,000 F + H2O (18 lbs) ---> CO (28 lbs) + H2 (2 lbs) The CO + H2 "water gas" can then be bubbled through a water bath (containing some ammonia catalyst) to "shift" the CO to hydrogen: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html United States Patent 4,564,516 Elliott , et al. January 14, 1986 Ammonia-based catalyst for water-gas shift reaction Abstract The present invention is an improvement in the water-gas shift reaction in which an aqueous solution of ammonia or an ammonia yielding compound serves as a catalyst to increase the rate of, as well as shift the equilibrium toward, the production of hydrogen. The ammonia yielding compounds are preferably ammonium hydroxide or the weak acid salts of ammonia. Water for the reaction may be supplied by the solvent for the catalyst so that a separate source of steam is not required. CO (28 lbs) + H2O (18 lbs) ---> CO2 (44 lbs) + H2 (2 lbs) With some recycling, you only need the carbon "fuel rods". Adding enough U235 to the "fuel rods" will eliminate the need for electrical heating. :-) Regards Frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" Electrically Heated Carbon Rods will react with CO2 gas stored on-board on a fuel > cell-powered vehicle to form carbon monoxide which can react with on-board stored > water at low temperature to get the shift reaction: > > C (12 lbs) ~ 1200 F + CO2 (44 lbs)---> 2 CO (56 lbs) > > 2 CO (56 lbs) + 2 H2O (36 lbs) ---> 2 CO2 (88 lbs) + 2 H2 ( 4 lbs). > > That gives 28 lbs of "stored weight" per pound of Hydrogen, with seemingly less bother > than the Aquafuel process which is doing essentially the same thing with more energy > loss. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 7 08:42:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA04315; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:41:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:41:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c34495$c0363620$3000bf3f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <006801c3447f$f7ec4de0$df10b83f@computer> <007801c34488$be05d480$df10b83f@computer> Subject: Re: Popcorn Hydrogen. Was [AquaFuel Contender?] Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 09:39:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401a993ba5f825bb081f8705174d3b8882350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"t6avI1.0.L31.jIP2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51106 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 182 pounds of Popcorn, C6H12O6 or 6(CH2O units in the starch molecule) if popped in a small electrically-pulsed resistance-heated pressure chamber will yield 6 CO + 6 H2 gas molecules. When this gas is bubbled through an aqueous shift catalyst the reaction exothermally reacts the CO with H2O to produce 6 CO2 molecules plus 6 more H2 molecules. Thus: C6H12O6 (182 lbs) + 6 H2O (108 lbs) + heat -catalyst ---> 6 CO2 + 12 H2 (24 lbs) In fact, any carbonaceous compound (biomass or fossil derived) when charred to carbon (and briquetted) will produce a char that can be electrically heated and reacted with water to produce on-board hydrogen, without the energy expense of forming carbon rods. Motorcycle or PopCycle? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 7 08:50:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA09707; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:49:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:49:09 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: Blue Diamond update July Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:46:55 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"A7Tr83.0.YN2.qPP2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51107 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am beginning to alter the design of the craft, as the power level driving the small propeller causes driveshaft problems I can't keep repairing. I am finished with the Internal combustion engine, and am now preparing to remove this and begin an earnest search more along the lines of an alternaive propulsion. The use of gasoline was originally planned to be for development testing only, and its mass is too high to justify keeping at any rate. Any propulsion scheme I see will be much lower power than the current peak 70 kw produced by the gasoline engine. I see I have no choice but to enlarge the airscoop to drive a much larger propeller - 1.8m in diameter is what I calculate is the largest I can fit into the aft end. The maximum rpm normally achievable will be just over 2000 rpm. I calculate I can achieve much higher thrust with this, using a much lighter power system such as I am planning. First off I will attempt to construct a complete propulsion unit and then graft it onto the aft end. The first test will be to pump water through a rotary joint into the prop, ducted to the prop tips where vented at a tangent to provide thrust to turn the prop. I have already made a few such tests, with low pressure water pumps, and see the devil will be in getting the orifice correctly matched to the pump volume/pressure capacity. This is where we get back to the centrifugal hydrolysis arena, in the effort to develop steam at the exhaust of the prop tips. It would be even more convenient to end up with some of Jones Beene's HTP which could be combusted in a tip-jet arrangement much as Hiller's tip-jet chopper they developed back in the '50s. One major concern is that the charged water tubing in each blade will act as an armature, producing a minor magnetic field, as the current running through each blade envisioned is to be on the order 10 to 20 amperes. I am still trying to work out what kind of effect this might have on the air moving across the airfoil... As an aside, I still think about using JLN's Lifter thrust to drive the tips - it would be a lot less messy than than having water slung all over the inside of the airscoop, but the power supply would probably outweigh the boat. Things should be interesting as I work through this. Regards... http://www.ocean-talent.com/ http://www.explorecraft.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 01:37:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA04446; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 01:36:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 01:36:30 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Blue Diamond update July Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:32:41 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Xbhth.0.L51.EAe2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51108 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And then it occurred to me that I might better achieve tip thrust by cooking the HTP or CH2O in a chamber, venting this to the tips where it would be mixed with air and burnt. The flow through the blades then is: unaccompanied by electrical currents, avoiding magnetics; is gaseous rather than liquid, avoiding imbalance problems; is driven (pumped) by the gas production, avoiding need for a 'pump'. > -----Original Message----- > From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] > Sent: Monday, 2003 July 07 22:47 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Blue Diamond update July > > > > I am beginning to alter the design of the craft, >x< > Things should be interesting as I work through this. > > Regards... > http://www.ocean-talent.com/ > http://www.explorecraft.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 06:43:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA22062; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 06:42:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 06:42:08 -0700 Message-ID: <002c01c3454e$3b720680$9410b83f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Popcorn Hydrogen Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 07:41:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403bfa2ea2f569f37f98e4d5479f1844c5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"ld3TX1.0.TO5.lei2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51109 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Background: History Alexander Pierce Anderson was a brilliant inventive man who brought considerable fame to this Minnesota community during his lifetime and left a legacy that remains alive today. http://www.pressenter.com/~acis/history.html Fairly early in his career, he had an opportunity to test Dr. Heinrich Meyer's theory that the central nucleus of a starch granule contains a minuscule amount of free (condensed) water. In 1901, in very simple terms, he was able to heat corn starch to a very high temperature and then cause it to explode. The tiny amount of condensed water in the granules flashed into steam during the explosion and tore the starch granules to pieces, thus turning the mass of expanded granules into a "porous puffed mass." And thus, puffed cereal was born. In Situ Carbonization Using Electrical Current Heating: Exothermic Charring sets in at ~ 405 F and above, as the carbonaceous material releases H2O and/or CO and volatile organic compounds (the more tenacious Carbon-Carbon bonds are formed). Once these strong bonds are formed, the char needs to be electrical conduction heated to ~ 2000 F to effect the C + H2O ---> CO + H2 "water gas" reaction. A simple electrical conduction-heated CO - H2 gas generator can be made using an alumina or quartz tube packed with a carbonaceous material moistened and mixed with carbon powder, squeezed between carbon-rod electrodes. Since carbon has a Negative Temperature Coefficient of Resistance, the resistance will decrease as charring sets in. Capacitor discharge, or high voltage transformer power supply? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 12:46:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA02989; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:44:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:44:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:23:26 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Gyro Gearloose In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"L6Yfe2.0.ck.oyn2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51110 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 13:33:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA00582; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:30:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:30:42 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:35:32 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"qijS3.0.m8.ndo2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51112 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:34 PM 7/6/3, Grimer wrote: >The behaviour of a shell of gyros fixed in a >frame leads to some interesting possibilities. First, let me say that you have the most creative and interesting thoughts! > >Consider the boundary condition where the >frame is extremely stiff compared to the gyros. >The "stiffness" of the gyros will depend on >their speed, mass and radius of gyration. > >When the ratio [frame stiffness]/[gyro stiffness] >tends to infinity then though rotating the shell >will cause the gyros to generate enormous forces, The forces, in the form of torque, aren't really so enormous as it might seem. Viewed from the standpoint of small masses in the system, is just the old F = m*a. It is just that the high angular velocity of gyro's make it seem like the torque required to change orientation is so high. It is not infinite. It is just enough to change aggregate momentums the required amount. A gyro can be held against the great moment of inirtia of the earth so as not to precess and made to rotate easily. The angular momentum is actually added to the to the earth in the first 180 deg.of rotation, and removed the second 180. deg. of rotation. Alternatively, two gyros can be placed on the same shaft so as to oppose each other, without involving the earth at all. Howewever, if the shaft is free to bend the gyros on the shaft will quickly be out of alignment and have a net angular momentum. >these forces will be balanced by frame reaction, >and no strain energy will be transferred to the >frame from the gyros. The situation as far as the >strain energy of the frame is concerned is the >same as if the gyros were not rotating at all. >At this boundary condition, it is entirely reasonable >to think that the inertia of the ensemble as a whole >will he the same for running gyros as for stationary >gyros. This implicitly assumes that the angular momentum vector sum of the gyros is zero before the frame rotation. > >However, if on the other hand the frame is very >unstiff (elastic) in relation to the gyros, >then the gyros will twist away merrily and >transfer lots of their "strain energy" to the >frame. In so doing the gyros will slow down. The gyros slowing down is true in a practical sense, due to imperfect bearings, but not true if the bearings are perfect. If the gyros *do* slow down due to imperfect bearings though, the angular momenum lost is transferred to the frame and/or the frame holder. The work performed on the frame is the work done in twisting the frame by externaally applied torque. Provided the bearings are perfect, the gyros retain the same rotational kinetic energy as before the twisting. >Now under these circumstances the whole shell >is supplying two classes of energy. The inertial >energy to start the shell rotating and the >control energy to initiate the transfer of >twist strain energy from the gyros to the >frame. This is not a control energy, but rather a substantial energy. >I don't know how large this control >energy will be, but I cannot see how, logically, >it can be zero. Now you are in a very complex and entirely new bailywick. If you start out with an elastic frame where the angular momentums of the gyros sum to zero, and you rotate the frame, then the sum of the angular momentums of the gyros will no longer be zero due to precession. It will then take work to perform the rotation, and that work is being transferred into potential energy of the elastic frame, and heat energy too, if the frame is not perfectly elastic. > >But the twisting frame raises yet another >interesting possibility. The twist strain >energy of the frame is increasing whilst >the "strain energy" of the gyros is decreasing. > >Now suppose there comes a point where the >condition is such that the twist strain energy >of the frame off-loads itself back into the >gyros in the same way as the strain energy of >an unstiff testing machine off-loads back into >a concrete specimen taken beyond the maximum >stress and showers one with shrapnel as the >specimen explodes. > >Would the gyros flip over to their >180 degree position like the tippy tops >described in Peter Warlow's intriguing >book "Reversing Earth"? In the case of a perfectly elastic frame, it seems the gyros should return to their original positions if the strained frame is suddenly let go. This is not true, however. In the course of applying torque to the frame, we and whatever we might be attached to, like the earth, gained both rotational kinetic energy and angular momentum ... until the point where the axes of the gyros aligned with the axis of applied torque and no resistance torque was offered by the gyros. At aht point all the torque is applied to the frame itself, making it rotate without any resistance fromthe gyros. The sum of our angular momentum plus that of the frame and gyros is constant. The work done by twisting the frame is potential energy. When it is released the angular momentum "stored up" in the twisted orientation of the gyros is transferred to the frame itself. The gyros still retain the same rotational kinetic energy as before the "untwist". The additional rotational kinetic energy applied to the frame comes from the poential energy stored elastically in the frame. Both angular momentum and total energy are conserved at all times. > >If one has a gyro in gimbals which are >not very accurately made then playing >around with such a device might well lead >to 180 degree flipping as described before >in this thread. Should not be so. Total angular momentum is not conserved. The system was in equilibrium when I lightly tapped on a gyro pole to make it flip. It did not appear to be bearing friction involved, but rather the freedom to precess in a small orbit in space offered by the bearing looseness. Every time I discuss this I get the impression I must have a really bad memory (which I confess is true!) However, I feel sure about my recollection at the time that his was quite an anomaly. > >But more interestingly still, if the >geographical earth is thought of as a >magnetic gyro in a frame then one can >see that when the magnetic pole wanders >far enough from the geographical pole the >outer earth will flip over in precisely >the way outlined in Warlow's thesis. > > >The following is an interesting quote in >relation to Warlow's insight. > > ============================================ > The field has even completely collapsed > and reversed innumerable times, which have > been recorded in the magnetic alignment of > lava as it cooled. One theory to explain > magnetic pole reversals is related to large > meteorite impacts, which could trigger ice > ages. The movement of water from the oceans > to high latitudes would accelerate the > rotation of the Earth, which would disrupt > magmatic convection cells into chaos. These > may reverse when a new pattern is > established. Another theory is that the > reversals are triggered by a slight change > the angular momentum of the earth as a > direct result of the impacts. These > theories are challenged by the > controversial Reversing Earth Theory, > which proposes that the entire crust > could shift and reverse the true poles > in a matter of days, but that the molten > core would remain stationary, resulting > in apparent magnetic reversal. The Sun > would then rise in the opposite direction. > ============================================ > >Personally, I go along with Warlow on this and think >that his ideas are only unaccepted for the same >reasons as the ideas of shifting continents were >unaccepted early in the last century. > >Also, the whole idea is apocalyptically >scarey, and like death, an idea people that >would prefer not to think about. > >What do the readers of Vortex think, eh? After all, >since a Vortex involves twisting thingees, it's a >very appropriate subject for this discussion group. :-) > >Frank Grimer First, let me say I don't see how a pole shift could cause a crustal shift, or how nuclear momentua are sufficiently torsion-linked to their lattices to cause any appreciable force. Not that it isn't possible but I just have not seen any credible evidence for it. However, it seems true to me that a major build-up of mass in a polar region or any region away from the equator could make the earth's crust shift up to 90 degrees (not 180 degrees) and this could happen rapidly if some means were available to break the friction between the earth's crust and the bulk of the earth. There is some evidence that this might in fact be made to happen if a sufficent shock can start the process. The evidence for this is found geologically in very long "run-outs" of some rock slides. When rock cliffs of a large size "calve", in some cases the calved rock, instead of simply piling up at the base of the cliff, runs out in a nearly liquid form for miles. If memory serves, examples of such formations have been found both on the earth and elsewhere. Anyway, somehow, a thin layer of pulverized rock at the base of the slide acts as a nearly frictionless bearing surface for the great mass of rock moving above it. A great tectonic stress suddenly relieved by a meteor hit might just be able to start a cascade reaction that forms such a frictionless bearing surface under the earth's crust, and then frees the crust to (by geological standards) fairly quickly rotate to find a new equlibrium. Its a bit of a wild-eyed a hypothesis, but at least it is somewhat credible to me. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 13:33:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA00462; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:30:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:30:35 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:35:28 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro Resent-Message-ID: <"jJD92.0.57.gdo2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51111 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 5:11 PM 7/6/3, John B wrote: >I don't know if this could possibly be the answer to your gyro mystery >Horace, but there is one way you could precess a gyro without feeling any >appreciable precessional force. >Take a gyro that consists of two rotating balanced weights. The anomaly I observed happend with a common round gyro, not a bar with two weights, so this does not apply. > >This way the precessional force would vary, at some moments it would be >greater than the same mass in the form of a ring, and at other times it >would be virtually nil as the two orbiting masses line up with the >precessional force. > >Though you would need to be very fast as you have to complete the action >over just a few degrees of rotation, so at high rpm's this would impossible >by hand. There is no way to be "fast enough". That is because no matter how fast you switch the axis, even infinitely fast, (without applying force to the weights, as I think you imply here), the weights still have the same velocity and momentum after the switch. You can not change their momentum without the application of force for a finite duration. Keep up the thinking though! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 14:21:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07736; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:19:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.243] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John B" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gyro Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:01:11 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2003 21:01:11.0739 (UTC) FILETIME=[0FB348B0:01C34594] Resent-Message-ID: <"a7Jwd1.0.nu1.ELp2_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51113 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >There is no way to be "fast enough". That is because no matter how fast you >switch the axis, even infinitely fast, (without applying force to the >weights, as I think you imply here), the weights still have the same >velocity and momentum after the switch. You can not change their momentum >without the application of force for a finite duration. You still need to apply a force, however if the gyro is as stated, only inertia resists the move, the forces that usually arise when you precess an object are going to be a mere fraction of what they would be if the gyro was precessed out of alignment. You apply force to the weights and they are moved, however you only get normal inertia not the twisting force felt when you try to precess a rotating object. Think about it this way, take a gyro made from a disk, force it to precess. Now freeze time and consider the precessional force created, now cut off the parts of the disk that experience the force. You will end up with just two arms. _________________________________________________________________ Surf the net and talk on the phone with Xtra Jetstream @ http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5803,00.html ! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 14:52:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA16067; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:51:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:51:23 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.243] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John B" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gyro Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:50:50 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2003 21:50:51.0094 (UTC) FILETIME=[FF88C760:01C3459A] Resent-Message-ID: <"r5rsd1.0.uw3.Rpp2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51114 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >There is no way to be "fast enough". That is because no matter how fast you >switch the axis, even infinitely fast, (without applying force to the >weights, as I think you imply here), the weights still have the same >velocity and momentum after the switch. You can not change their momentum >without the application of force for a finite duration. I accidentally pressed send, so an incomplete version of this email was sent out. You still need to apply a force, however if the gyro is as stated, only inertia resists the move, the forces that usually arise when you precess an object are going to be a mere fraction of what they would be if the gyro was precessed out of alignment. You apply force to the weights and they are moved, however you only get normal inertia not the twisting force felt when you try to turn the axis of a rotating object. Think about it this way, take a gyro made from a disk, force it to precess. Now freeze time and consider the precessional force created, now cut off the parts of the disk that experience the force. o--x oo xx o x o . x o x o x oo xx o--x The x's show that the right side of the gyro is feeling a force due to being precessed that pushes it into the screen. The o's show where the gyro is feeling the twisting precessional force on it's left side pushing out. The -'s feeling no appreciable twisting force. If you now cut away the parts of the disk that feel the precessional force, the right and left sides you find only the fraction of the force is left, the disk is now a bar. (to create the above forces you could have the gyro rotating clockwise with the top of the gyro moving into the screen and the bottom of the gyro coming out, this would results in the left side feeling a push out from the screen and the right side being pushed into the screen as seen above) _________________________________________________________________ Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN Personals! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 15:30:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA09075; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:29:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:29:23 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:34:07 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"jGtUD.0.iD2.3Nq2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51115 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:53 AM 7/5/3, Jones Beene wrote: >Horace Heffner: > >> What is interesting is what happens magnetically to the normally sedate >> lattice when it is under extreme stress. Perhaps large valence electron >> magnetic moments are briefly created somehow that link to the angular >> momentum of the nuclei. I don't know anything about that one way or >> another. It might be interesting to do NMR analysis of materials under >> stress. > >Horace, you might be interested in this reference: > >"Fracture induced electromagnetic radiation" >V Frid, A Rabinovitch and D Bahat > >http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0022-3727/36/13 As you are aware from our prior discussions here, I am very aware of energy focusing phenomena and the above phenomnon, especially due to its relationship to the "fracto-fusion" hypothesis for cold fusion of many years ago. The above phenomnon is primarily an electrostatic one, and a surface effect. I can not see where it can cause sufficent linkage to the lattice bonds to create breakage. It seems to me that a significant or substantial nucleus-lattice torsion bond can probably only exist, if it does/can exist, in highly strained bonds. The magnetic linkage it appears is over 100,000 times too small. Correction: the above should say: "The above phenomnon is primarily an electrostatic one, and a surface effect. I can not see where it can cause sufficent linkage *between the nucleii and bonds* to create *bond* breakage. It seems to me that a significant or substantial nucleus-lattice torsion bond can probably only exist, if it does exist (in a large body effect), with highly strained bonds." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 15:30:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA09132; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:29:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:29:28 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:34:12 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro Resent-Message-ID: <"jAB5A3.0.cE2.7Nq2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51116 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:01 PM 7/8/3, John B wrote: >>There is no way to be "fast enough". That is because no matter how fast you >>switch the axis, even infinitely fast, (without applying force to the >>weights, as I think you imply here), the weights still have the same >>velocity and momentum after the switch. You can not change their momentum >>without the application of force for a finite duration. > >You still need to apply a force, however if the gyro is as stated, only >inertia resists the move, the forces that usually arise when you precess an >object are going to be a mere fraction of what they would be if the gyro was >precessed out of alignment. > >You apply force to the weights and they are moved, however you only get >normal inertia not the twisting force felt when you try to precess a >rotating object. > >Think about it this way, take a gyro made from a disk, force it to precess. >Now freeze time and consider the precessional force created, now cut off the >parts of the disk that experience the force. >You will end up with just two arms. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Top mass is pushed into the screen when gyro is forced to precess. (not applicible to side view) Top view Side View W2 O W2 CCW rotation of gyro The bottom mass moves out of the screen with precession. Legend: . Gyro axle I Arms holding Masses O Weights - Second Axis of rotation ^,<,> arrows = Gyro axle (side view only) Virtually no precessional force as the masses align. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yes, the precessional forces are greatest in the vicinity of the "second axis of rotation" you show above. OK, it is maybe possible to do what you suggest if it can be accomplished in exactly zero time (not in the limit, but actually zero time.) However, it takes a finite amount of time to do the suggested rotation. This finite amount of time leaves you with a finite precession rate. This idea of instantaneously doing things with only instantaneous linear momentum changes can probably be used to create lots of nonsense. For example, in the top view, if you can instantaneously exchange weights W1 and W2 through lateral motion, while letting them keep their existing linear momentum, you'll see that energy is preserved, but that the direction of rotation has been reversed, thus completely violating the law of conservation of angular momentum. Even all that said, this is still not relevant to the proposed anomaly in that the subject gyro was a conventional circular gyro. Some very interesting thoughts though. Makes me wonder about the magic photon which supposedly instantaneously accelerates to light speed and travels from point to point in the universe in zero time in its inertial frame. Is its existence merely in our whimsical imaginations? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 15:32:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA10733; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:31:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:31:37 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:36:32 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro Resent-Message-ID: <"lXThp.0.dd2.9Pq2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51117 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:50 PM 7/8/3, John B wrote: >>There is no way to be "fast enough". That is because no matter how fast you >>switch the axis, even infinitely fast, (without applying force to the >>weights, as I think you imply here), the weights still have the same >>velocity and momentum after the switch. You can not change their momentum >>without the application of force for a finite duration. > >I accidentally pressed send, so an incomplete version of this email was sent >out. It's OK, I got the picture. > >You still need to apply a force, however if the gyro is as stated, only >inertia resists the move, the forces that usually arise when you precess an >object are going to be a mere fraction of what they would be if the gyro was >precessed out of alignment. > >You apply force to the weights and they are moved, however you only get >normal inertia not the twisting force felt when you try to turn the axis of >a rotating object. > >Think about it this way, take a gyro made from a disk, force it to precess. >Now freeze time and consider the precessional force created, now cut off the >parts of the disk that experience the force. > > o--x > oo xx >o x >o . x >o x >o x > oo xx > o--x > >The x's show that the right side of the gyro is feeling a force due to being >precessed that pushes it into the screen. >The o's show where the gyro is feeling the twisting precessional force on >it's left side pushing out. >The -'s feeling no appreciable twisting force. > >If you now cut away the parts of the disk that feel the precessional force, >the right and left sides you find only the fraction of the force is left, >the disk is now a bar. > >(to create the above forces you could have the gyro rotating clockwise with >the top of the gyro moving into the screen and the bottom of the gyro coming >out, this would results in the left side feeling a push out from the screen >and the right side being pushed into the screen as seen above) > >_________________________________________________________________ >Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN >Personals! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 16:23:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA05252; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:22:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:22:41 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:44:26 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"KL_ZH1.0.vH1.09r2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51118 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:53 AM 7/5/3, Jones Beene wrote: >Horace Heffner: > >> What is interesting is what happens magnetically to the normally sedate >> lattice when it is under extreme stress. Perhaps large valence electron >> magnetic moments are briefly created somehow that link to the angular >> momentum of the nuclei. I don't know anything about that one way or >> another. It might be interesting to do NMR analysis of materials under >> stress. > >Horace, you might be interested in this reference: > >"Fracture induced electromagnetic radiation" >V Frid, A Rabinovitch and D Bahat > >http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/0022-3727/36/13 As you are aware from our prior discussions here, I am very aware of energy focusing phenomena and the above phenomnon especially due to its realtionship to the "fracto-fusion" hypothesis for cold fusion of many years ago. The above phenomnon is primarily an electrostatic one, and a surface effect. I can not see where it can cause sufficent linkage to the lattice bonds to create breakage. It seems to me that a significant or substantial nucleus-lattice torsion bond can probably only exist, if it does/can exist, in highly strained bonds. The magnetic linkage it appears is over 100,000 times too small. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 16:35:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA11911; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:34:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:34:47 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.243] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John B" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gyro Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 23:34:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2003 23:34:14.0919 (UTC) FILETIME=[714D5970:01C345A9] Resent-Message-ID: <"WQy901.0.0w2.MKr2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51119 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Yes, the precessional forces are greatest in the vicinity of the "second >axis of rotation" you show above. OK, it is maybe possible to do what you >suggest if it can be accomplished in exactly zero time (not in the limit, >but actually zero time.) However, it takes a finite amount of time to do >the suggested rotation. This finite amount of time leaves you with a >finite precession rate. Certainly, but even when done over a finite period of time it might be well less than 100th of the twisting precessional forces felt if the gyro had rotated another 90 degrees, so while not completely zero, the precessional force will be minimized to a significant extent. True zero would require a truly 2 dimensional object rotating in 3 dimensions of space to be shifted instantaneously, but you can reduce the precessional forces to barely measurable by using an almost 2 dimensional object that is rotating slowly enough so that the arms move through only a few seconds of arc as the axis is swiftly reoriented. (If the axis was reoriented at the same swift pace 90 degrees later the twisting precessional force would be massive) That said I think we are currently in agreement and you are just arguing the force will never be completely zero. _________________________________________________________________ Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN Personals! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 19:00:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA17110; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:58:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:58:46 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:03:39 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro Resent-Message-ID: <"2wl953.0.GB4.LRt2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51120 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:34 PM 7/8/3, John B wrote: >>Yes, the precessional forces are greatest in the vicinity of the "second >>axis of rotation" you show above. OK, it is maybe possible to do what you >>suggest if it can be accomplished in exactly zero time (not in the limit, >>but actually zero time.) However, it takes a finite amount of time to do >>the suggested rotation. This finite amount of time leaves you with a >>finite precession rate. > >Certainly, but even when done over a finite period of time it might be well >less than 100th of the twisting precessional forces felt if the gyro had >rotated another 90 degrees, so while not completely zero, the precessional >force will be minimized to a significant extent. > >True zero would require a truly 2 dimensional object rotating in 3 >dimensions of space to be shifted instantaneously, but you can reduce the >precessional forces to barely measurable by using an almost 2 dimensional >object that is rotating slowly enough so that the arms move through only a >few seconds of arc as the axis is swiftly reoriented. (If the axis was >reoriented at the same swift pace 90 degrees later the twisting precessional >force would be massive) > >That said I think we are currently in agreement and you are just arguing the >force will never be completely zero. My principle arguments are that (1) this rod model does not apply to the observed anomaly and (2) the assumptions you have made, being impossible, allow you to prove most anything, like violation of COAM. I think you did momentarily suck me into the "vortex" of your thinking when I wrote: "Yes, the precessional forces are greatest in the vicinity of the "second axis of rotation" you show above." After thinking a bit, we are not in agreement at all. This aspect too must be entirely wrong. I say this on two common sense grounds. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Top mass is pushed into the screen when gyro is forced to precess. (not applicible to side view) Top view Side View W2 O W2 CCW rotation of gyro The bottom mass moves out of the screen with precession. Legend: . Gyro axle I Arms holding Masses O Weights - Second Axis of rotation ^,<,> arrows = Gyro axle (side view only) Virtually no precessional force as the masses align. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - First, is conservation of angular momentum. Rotating the main axis "====...=" through an angle theta must require exactly the same amount of transfer of angular momentum to the "mover" regardless of the orientation of the rod "I" in the top view, or even whether the rotating mass is a rod or disk, etc. That is because the angular momentum of the system is changed by a fixed amount to accomplish the given rotation. The precessional torque on an axially symmetric gyro must therefore be uniformly distributed about its periphery. The second reson is that even if the gyro were rotated about the axis "---...-" a very small angle, but in zero time, the weights W2 and W3 would have to be accelerated at an infinite angular rate to keep on the new expected path. Suppose the mass W2 for instance, is rotated about axis "---...-" in a direction out of the page in the "top view." If must now acquire a velocity change toward the page that will get it to the page level by the time it rotates about the main axis "===...=" a full 90 degrees. The precessional force is just as large at the place shown as at the other angles. The acceleration is directed inward toward the page. The precession force at every location is proportional to the axis angular velocity change rate d theta/ dt. I hope that makes sense. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 20:36:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA25973; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 20:35:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 20:35:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 20:35:13 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: weirdsci-announce@eskimo.com Subject: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-Lr4W.0.aL6.qru2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51121 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Does this really work? Makes significant induced e-fields (and currents) in brain tissue? I haven't tried it yet. Who dares be the first to drag out their twist-drill... http://night.walker.net/mindorb.htm http://night.walker.net/1stExper.htm http://night.walker.net/2ndExper.htm http://night.walker.net/protomag.htm http://night.walker.net/mindmag.htm http://night.walker.net/wavemag.htm (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 8 21:57:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA30104; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:56:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:56:33 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.173.243.243] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John B" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gyro Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 04:56:01 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2003 04:56:01.0590 (UTC) FILETIME=[64F98D60:01C345D6] Resent-Message-ID: <"dltCP1.0.AM7.12w2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51122 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Gyro >Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:03:39 -0800 > >At 3:34 PM 7/8/3, John B wrote: > >>Yes, the precessional forces are greatest in the vicinity of the "second > >>axis of rotation" you show above. OK, it is maybe possible to do what >you > >>suggest if it can be accomplished in exactly zero time (not in the >limit, > >>but actually zero time.) However, it takes a finite amount of time to >do > >>the suggested rotation. This finite amount of time leaves you with a > >>finite precession rate. > > > >Certainly, but even when done over a finite period of time it might be >well > >less than 100th of the twisting precessional forces felt if the gyro had > >rotated another 90 degrees, so while not completely zero, the >precessional > >force will be minimized to a significant extent. > > > >True zero would require a truly 2 dimensional object rotating in 3 > >dimensions of space to be shifted instantaneously, but you can reduce the > >precessional forces to barely measurable by using an almost 2 dimensional > >object that is rotating slowly enough so that the arms move through only >a > >few seconds of arc as the axis is swiftly reoriented. (If the axis was > >reoriented at the same swift pace 90 degrees later the twisting >precessional > >force would be massive) > > > >That said I think we are currently in agreement and you are just arguing >the > >force will never be completely zero. > > >My principle arguments are that (1) this rod model does not apply to the >observed anomaly I accept that. >and (2) the assumptions you have made, being impossible I have not made any impossible assumptions. Impossible assumptions are only needed to reduce precessional forces to absolute zero. >allow you to prove most anything, like violation of COAM. > >I think you did momentarily suck me into the "vortex" of your thinking when >I wrote: "Yes, the precessional forces are greatest in the vicinity of the >"second axis of rotation" you show above." After thinking a bit, we are >not in agreement at all. This aspect too must be entirely wrong. I say >this on two common sense grounds. I can prove my point by explaining exactly how precessional forces arise, and show that they don't appear (to any significant extent) in the example I give. > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Top mass is pushed into the screen when gyro is forced to precess. (not >applicable to side view) > > Top view Side View > I I > I I > I I > I I >------.------ ========^ > I Gyro axle I > I I > I I > I I > O> W2 O W2 > >CCW rotation of gyro >The bottom mass moves out of the screen with precession. > >Legend: . Gyro axle > I Arms holding Masses > O Weights > - Second Axis of rotation > ^,<,> arrows > = Gyro axle (side view only) > >Virtually no precessional force as the masses align. >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >First, is conservation of angular momentum. It seems you don't really understand how precessional forces arise, so you just say it's got something to do with angular momentum understanding the mechanisms for the force. Here is how the forces arise, when you look at it, break the problem up you will see there is no significant precessional force in the example I am giving. Precessional forces are centrifugal forces, first take a bicycle and add a light (or reflective or glowing object) to the tire, take the tire off of the ground and give it a spin, see the path the light takes as you turn the handle bars, you will see that rather than tracing out a straight line, it now traces a curve. The material in that part of the tire is taking a curved path that creates centrifugal force. the curved trajectory and resultant force is what the precessional forces are. If you were below the bike looking up you would see that the centrifugal force the top experiences is opposite to what the bottom feels creating a torque. Let's try another one. Remove the bike wheel and put it on an axle, spin the bike wheel up and hold the axle in your hands as you rotate with your arms out stretched (so you see the wheel as an O). There is a centrifugal force on your hand due to your rotating, the force on the wheel however is more complex because we see that due to the wheel rotating on it's axle, we see that the bottom is adding to the velocity where the top is subtracting, so the centrifugal force on the bottom is greater while the top has reduced or zero centrifugal force. If you look at the way I was proposing the gyro's axis would be altered, you will clearly see that there is no appreciable precessional forces. Don't just assume precessional force treating it like some magic to be invoked when you utter the words "conservation of angular momentum" but study the path and forces of one particle or mass and see if the forces arise or not. Precessional force arises because it either unbalances an existing centrifugal force, or because it creates a curved trajectory. If you look at the course the masses would take as I propose, you would see that there is no curved trajectory, and no unbalanced centrifugal force. Furthermore what we are talking about here is torque. The precessional force is a torque placed on a gyro, and the closer to the axle you place that torque the less effect it will have. Here is that diagram again (ASCII art has a habit of becoming distorted, should look like a circle) o--x oo xx o x o . x o x o x oo xx o--x The x's show that the right side of the gyro is feeling a force due to being precessed that pushes it into the screen. The o's show where the gyro is feeling the twisting precessional force on it's left side pushing out. The -'s feeling no appreciable twisting force. So if you remove the parts of a gyro that feel the force, you only have the center left, unable to feel any significant force. _________________________________________________________________ Gaming galore at http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming ! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 01:16:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA19009; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 01:15:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 01:15:35 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 00:19:58 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro Resent-Message-ID: <"F2R-T1.0.je4.cyy2_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51123 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Before introducing new examples which only clutter the issue with even more fog let's finish with the rod example at hand. At 3:34 PM 7/8/3, John B wrote: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Top mass is pushed into the screen when gyro is forced to precess. (not applicible to side view) Top view Side View W2 O W2 CCW rotation of gyro The bottom mass moves out of the screen with precession. Legend: . Gyro axle I Arms holding Masses O Weights - Second Axis of rotation ^,<,> arrows = Gyro axle (side view only) Virtually no precessional force as the masses align. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Your position, as I understand it, is that, at the brief instant shown, if torque is quickly applied about the axis "---...-" such that the mass W1 is pushed into the screen (page), and W2 out of the page, then the force (torque) of precession is less (or lessend or even gone if the displacement is accomplished in an instant) due to the fact that the applied motion does not affect the rotation of the weights W1 and W2. You think the resulting forces and motions strictly involve linear displacements. If that is your postion then your mistake is that you have ignored the fact that the weights W1 and W2 have (suddenly) been placed on a new trajectory. Their velocity has been changed, and thier path has been changed. They are not simply relocated in the z axis which is aligned with the main axis of rotation. The main axis is rotated too. After translation, the motion of W1 and W2 is no longer strictly within the plane shown. Both W1 and W2 are in motion in a plane which intersects the plane shown within a 90 degree rotation of the main axis. This change in velocity of each mass dV/dt is an acceleration in a direction not on the plane of the screen. Note that both V and dV/dt are vectors. The direction of acceleration for both weights is in opposite directions, resulting in a torque of precession. I would suggest to you that the law of conservation of angular momentum, which I intentionally did not invoke above, is a very useful tool for understanding gyroscopes. If is your purpose to challenge that law I suggest that providing a working model which so violates that law is the only viable approach to do so. By changing the *path* of the rod ends, say for W2 as an example, the angular momentum of the system is changed. (You can't do that instantaneously without an infinite force, which is the source of your apparent paradox.) The angular momentum is given by L = r x P, where P is the momentum of the mass W2, r is the vector from the shaft, at right angles to the shaft, which points at W2, and x is the vector cross product. By applying the torque N = r x F, in the direction you suggest, where F is the direction of force on W2, you get N = f x F = r x d(mv)/dt. From this you can derive N = dL/dt. The precessional torque is at right angles to the applied force, and is proportional to the rate of change in angular momentum dL/dt. This is not mumbo jumbo. It is basic physics. Precessional force (torque) arises directly from a change in angular momentum of the system, which in itself can only occur due to a torque applied to the system. The orthodonal nature of the precessional torque is due to the cross product that is necessary to compute the change in velocity of the mass with respect to time, i.e. the acceleration of the mass, and ultimately the angular momentum of the system. I don't "just say it's got something to do with angular momentum understanding the mechanisms for the force." Precessional torque is a basic and fully quantified physical principle that can be derived from even more basic principles and definitions. One of the most key definitions, though, is that of angular momentum. Without a simple basic understanding of angular momentum, you are lost in a fog. If you feel you have that understanding then perhaps we can discuss the proof of conservation of angular momentum, or a detailed derivation of the precessional torque. Hopefully we can do that without invoking inertia tensors, and the like. I am not sure of your background. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 05:44:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA03543; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:39:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: <1c4101c34617$06b8eac0$6401a8c0@colinqamd1200> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: "Horace Heffner" Cc: Subject: Re: Gyro Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:38:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [65.49.180.21] using ID at Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:38:22 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <"DpRNI2.0.Bt.qp03_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51124 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, I don't know if you have seen this or not. I'm sure you have. I believe Eric Laithwaite got kicked out of the Royal Society for demonstrating the lifting of a spinning 50 lb rotor above his head, with only one hand on the axis shaft. This is Laithwaite's patent developed from that effect: http://www.gyro-scope.co.uk/patents/5860317LaithwaiteDawson.pdf I know that not only must torque be conserved, and if not, it requires that to reverse the spin direction of a gyro then the gyro must be stopped and then re-started in the opposite direction. However, when I played with a fast spinning 16 " bicycle wheel on a shaft I was totally amazed at the "tiny" amount of "continuously applied torque" required to completely reverse the wheel spin direction so long as I did not try to *force* the precession. Not scientific granted, but interesting. I used a hand drill to rotate the shaft. When you shared with Vortex your experience with the fast gyro spin direction reversal from the loose bearings, the two effects above came to my mind. They may even be related. If angular momentum is not conserved in yours and in Laithwaite's demonstration then perhaps it is being converted to something else. (Something that makes people squeamish to even think about.) In other words, if you still have that gyro, can I suggest weighing it when you next prod it into a spin reversal?. Best, Colin From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 06:19:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA19397; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 06:14:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 06:14:29 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01c3461b$a76ff720$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 06:11:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA19369 Resent-Message-ID: <"DTwR63.0.-k4.qK13_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51125 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Grimer asked me to post this reply for him - as apparently, he is having trouble connecting to Vortex from England. ========================================================= Thanks for that long reply Horace. You are being very patient with me :-) >The forces, in the form of torque, aren't really so enormous as it might >seem. Viewed from the standpoint of small masses in the system, is just >the old F = m*a. It is just that the high angular velocity of gyro's make >it seem like the torque required to change orientation is so high. It is >not infinite. It is just enough to change aggregate momentums the required >amount. A gyro can be held against the great moment of inertia of the >earth so as not to precess and made to rotate easily. The angular momentum >is actually added to the to the earth in the first 180 deg.of rotation, and >removed the second 180. deg. of rotation. I like that. :-) Connections between the very big and the very small are always intriguing. Like the fact that when I jump up in the air, the earth moves, or the fact that the sun not only rotates about its own centre but also in a tiny orbit about the centre of the whole solar system. >Alternatively, two gyros can be >placed on the same shaft so as to oppose each other, without involving the >earth at all. However, if the shaft is free to bend the gyros on the >shaft will quickly be out of alignment and have a net angular momentum. > > >>these forces will be balanced by frame reaction, >>and no strain energy will be transferred to the >>frame from the gyros. The situation as far as the >>strain energy of the frame is concerned is the >>same as if the gyros were not rotating at all. >>At this boundary condition, it is entirely reasonable >>to think that the inertia of the ensemble as a whole >>will he the same for running gyros as for stationary >>gyros. > > >This implicitly assumes that the angular momentum vector sum of the gyros >is zero before the frame rotation. Yep. It sure does. Building theoretical or bit models as opposed to real or atom models, has the advantage that they are rapidly constructed and, by putting them in the Vortex-L computer, rapidly tested to see if they work. ;-) >>However, if on the other hand the frame is very >>unstiff (elastic) in relation to the gyros, >>then the gyros will twist away merrily and >>transfer lots of their "strain energy" to the >>frame. In so doing the gyros will slow down. >The gyros slowing down is true in a practical sense, due to imperfect >bearings, but not true if the bearings are perfect. We can forget about imperfect bearings in my bit model. My bearings are most definitely perfect. My gyros will not slow down. So I was obviously allowing real atoms to pollute my bit model. An error, but perhaps - O felix culpa....... >If the gyros *do* slow >down due to imperfect bearings though, the angular momentum lost is >transferred to the frame and/or the frame holder. The work performed on >the frame is the work done in twisting the frame by externally applied >torque. Provided the bearings are perfect, the gyros retain the same >rotational kinetic energy as before the twisting. AH! Now what I need to know is what happens if the gyros *don't* slow down. Presumably momentum is transferred from the gyros to the frame where it is manifest as some kind of twist. Now are you saying that for this momentum transfer to take place no energy input or output is involved? I so I find this difficult to understand. Suppose we have two unit masses with velocity 3 Total momentum = 3 + 3 = 6 Total energy = 0.5(3^2) + 0.5(3^2) = 9 Suppose now that two units of momentum are transferred from one mass to the other. Total momentum = 1 + 5 = 6 Total energy = 0.5(1^2) + 0.5(5^2) = 13 So it would appear that to effect this transfer of momentum we need to supply 13 - 9 = 4 units of energy. Have I gone wrong somewhere? 8-( If energy input or output IS involved where does the energy come from. Does is come from my hand as I try to twist the ensemble of gyros. Does it come from some internal transfer? As for the flipping earth let's forget about that for now. Frank ================================================== From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 07:43:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA29432; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 07:38:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 07:38:41 -0700 Message-ID: <20030709143838.83077.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 07:38:38 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"nQ4m5.0.oB7.mZ23_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51126 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: there IS some work going on whith direct target with em of specific areas of the brain. they've done 2 major functions. one is induced autism. by targeting areas of the brain that are generally hyperactive in differnt autistisc types, theyve replicated both the mental problems and the prodigy type mental behavior some show. the article had a reporter under who couldnt draw, and by the end of the ten minute treatment, was doing detailed drawings from memory of a cat. the effect lasts a good hour or so after treatment, and the device isnt that big, and could be run off a laptop. they also mentioned boosting inate understanding of math (like those prodigies that can do massive sums and multiplication ect in their head.) i for one see this as a new method of "cheating" on tests. the other use i've heard about involves stimulating areas of the brain that are shown to be active under the influence of sodium pentothol and other truth serums. leaves teh subject compliant and spilling thier guts without being able to fight, and without all those annoying drug side affects and biochemichal interactions. i havent heard about testing on agents that have gone through immunity training, but it seems to me that it might be more effective on them than drugs. of course any such tests will probably be classified. ahh well. however, on to the product, teh proccess above is a very fine tuned targeting, like laser surgery. this product is like using a shotgun to kill bacteria. large feild, not very aimable, and you'd have to know what to aim at. i for one would not feel comfortable stimulating my ENTIRE brain. i would have to say there are probably things there i would not want to activate. in addition, the description seems to say that its pretty much wiping out short term memory for a while. not my cuppa, thank you very much. i would be willing to keep data and a journal on anyone else willing to try it, and design experiments and protocols if you want to test something in particular. --- William Beaty wrote: > > Does this really work? Makes significant induced > e-fields (and currents) > in brain tissue? I haven't tried it yet. Who > dares be the first to drag > out their twist-drill... > > http://night.walker.net/mindorb.htm > > > http://night.walker.net/1stExper.htm > http://night.walker.net/2ndExper.htm > http://night.walker.net/protomag.htm > http://night.walker.net/mindmag.htm > http://night.walker.net/wavemag.htm > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) > ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE > HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com > http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby > projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, > tesla coils, weird sci > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 07:58:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA04425; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 07:53:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 07:53:40 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030709075138.06a688d0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 07:53:49 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: stevek Subject: Nuclear Power Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3Vcxn3.0.251.pn23_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51127 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm going out on a limb here to pass along some humor... Steve A stranger was seated next to Little Tommy on the plane when the stranger turned to the boy and said, "Let's talk. I've heard that flights will go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger." Little Tommy, who had just opened his book, closed it slowly, and said to the stranger, "What would you like to discuss?" "Oh, I don't know," said the stranger. "How about nuclear power?" "OK," said Little Tommy. "That could be an interesting topic. But let me ask you a question first. "A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat grass. The same stuff. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose that is?" "Jeez," said the stranger. "I have no idea." "Well, then," said Little Tommy, "How is it that you feel qualified to discuss nuclear power when you don't know [crap]?" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 08:09:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA11360; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:04:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:04:02 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030709160255.0068ad0c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:02:55 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"bUPxG1.0.En2.Xx23_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51128 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >not my cuppa, thank you very much. Nor mine :-( My maternal grandfather, Oscar Bokaert, was a doctor and one of the first people to use x-rays for diagnosis. He died at 40 from leukemia - so I think I'll pass. Frank Grimer >i would be willing to keep data and a journal on >anyone else willing to try it, and design experiments >and protocols if you want to test something in >particular. >--- William Beaty wrote: >> >> Does this really work? Makes significant induced >> e-fields (and currents) >> in brain tissue? I haven't tried it yet. Who >> dares be the first to drag >> out their twist-drill... >> >> http://night.walker.net/mindorb.htm >> >> >> http://night.walker.net/1stExper.htm >> http://night.walker.net/2ndExper.htm >> http://night.walker.net/protomag.htm >> http://night.walker.net/mindmag.htm >> http://night.walker.net/wavemag.htm >> >> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) >> ))))))))))))))))))) >> William J. Beaty SCIENCE >> HOBBYIST website >> billb@eskimo.com >> http://amasci.com >> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby >> projects, sci fair >> Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, >> tesla coils, weird sci >> >> > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 08:13:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA13844; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:07:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:07:39 -0700 Message-ID: <20030709150724.71655.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:07:24 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20030709143838.83077.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"a0Eww1.0.5O3.w-23_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51129 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: heres the first page of the article. its a nytimes article, so to read the rest of it, id have to buy it, now that its archived. sorry By LAWRENCE OSBORNE n a concrete basement at the University of Sydney, I sat in a chair waiting to have my brain altered by an electromagnetic pulse. My forehead was connected, by a series of electrodes, to a machine that looked something like an old-fashioned beauty-salon hair dryer and was sunnily described to me as a ''Danish-made transcranial magnetic stimulator.'' This was not just any old Danish-made transcranial magnetic stimulator, however; this was the Medtronic Mag Pro, and it was being operated by Allan Snyder, one of the world's most remarkable scientists of human cognition. Nonetheless, the anticipation of electricity being beamed into my frontal lobes (and the consent form I had just signed) made me a bit nervous. Snyder found that amusing. ''Oh, relax now!'' he said in the thick local accent he has acquired since moving here from America. ''I've done it on myself a hundred times. This is Australia. Legally, it's far more difficult to damage people in Australia than it is in the United States.'' ''Damage?'' I groaned. ''You're not going to be damaged,'' he said. ''You're going to be enhanced.'' The Medtronic was originally developed as a tool for brain surgery: by stimulating or slowing down specific regions of the brain, it allowed doctors to monitor the effects of surgery in real time. But it also produced, they noted, strange and unexpected effects on patients' mental functions: one minute they would lose the ability to speak, another minute they would speak easily but would make odd linguistic errors and so on. A number of researchers started to look into the possibilities, but one in particular intrigued Snyder: that people undergoing transcranial magnetic stimulation, or TMS, could suddenly exhibit savant intelligence -- those isolated pockets of geniuslike mental ability that most often appear in autistic people. Snyder is an impish presence, the very opposite of a venerable professor, let alone an internationally acclaimed scientist. There is a whiff of Woody Allen about him. Did I really want him, I couldn't help thinking, rewiring my hard drive? ''We're not changing your brain physically,'' he assured me. ''You'll only experience differences in your thought processes while you're actually on the machine.'' His assistant made a few final adjustments to the electrodes, and then, as everyone stood back, Snyder flicked the switch. A series of electromagnetic pulses were being directed into my frontal lobes, but I felt nothing. Snyder instructed me to draw something. ''What would you like to draw?'' he said merrily. ''A cat? You like drawing cats? Cats it is.'' I've seen a million cats in my life, so when I close my eyes, I have no trouble picturing them. But what does a cat really look like, and how do you put it down on paper? I gave it a try but came up with some sort of stick figure, perhaps an insect. While I drew, Snyder continued his lecture. ''You could call this a creativity-amplifying machine. It's a way of altering our states of mind without taking drugs like mescaline. You can make people see the raw data of the world as it is. As it is actually represented in the unconscious mind of all of us.'' Two minutes after I started the first drawing, I was instructed to try again. After another two minutes, I tried a third cat, and then in due course a fourth. Then the experiment was over, and the electrodes were removed. I looked down at my work. The first felines were boxy and stiffly unconvincing. But after I had been subjected to about 10 minutes of transcranial magnetic stimulation, their tails had grown more vibrant, more nervous; their faces were personable and convincing. They were even beginning to wear clever expressions. I could hardly recognize them as my own drawings, though I had watched myself render each one, in all its loving detail. Somehow over the course of a very few minutes, and with no additional instruction, I had gone from an incompetent draftsman to a very impressive artist of the feline form. Snyder looked over my shoulder. ''Well, how about that? Leonardo would be envious.'' Or turning in his grave, I thought. As remarkable as the cat-drawing lesson was, it was just a hint of Snyder's work and its implications for the study of cognition. He has used TMS dozens of times on university students, measuring its effect on their ability to draw, to proofread and to perform difficult mathematical functions like identifying prime numbers by sight. Hooked up to the machine, 40 percent of test subjects exhibited extraordinary, and newfound, mental skills. That Snyder was able to induce these remarkable feats in a controlled, repeatable experiment is more than just a great party trick; it's a breakthrough that may lead to a revolution in the way we understand the limits of our own intelligence -- and the functioning of the human brain in general. --- alexander hollins wrote: > there IS some work going on whith direct target with > em of specific areas of the brain. they've done 2 > major functions. one is induced autism. by > targeting > areas of the brain that are generally hyperactive in > differnt autistisc types, theyve replicated both the > mental problems and the prodigy type mental behavior > some show. the article had a reporter under who > couldnt draw, and by the end of the ten minute > treatment, was doing detailed drawings from memory > of > a cat. the effect lasts a good hour or so after > treatment, and the device isnt that big, and could > be > run off a laptop. they also mentioned boosting > inate > understanding of math (like those prodigies that can > do massive sums and multiplication ect in their > head.) > > i for one see this as a new method of "cheating" on > tests. > > the other use i've heard about involves stimulating > areas of the brain that are shown to be active under > the influence of sodium pentothol and other truth > serums. leaves teh subject compliant and spilling > thier guts without being able to fight, and without > all those annoying drug side affects and > biochemichal > interactions. i havent heard about testing on > agents > that have gone through immunity training, but it > seems > to me that it might be more effective on them than > drugs. of course any such tests will probably be > classified. ahh well. > > > however, on to the product, teh proccess above is a > very fine tuned targeting, like laser surgery. this > product is like using a shotgun to kill bacteria. > large feild, not very aimable, and you'd have to > know > what to aim at. > > i for one would not feel comfortable stimulating my > ENTIRE brain. i would have to say there are > probably > things there i would not want to activate. in > addition, the description seems to say that its > pretty > much wiping out short term memory for a while. > > not my cuppa, thank you very much. > > i would be willing to keep data and a journal on > anyone else willing to try it, and design > experiments > and protocols if you want to test something in > particular. > --- William Beaty wrote: > > > > Does this really work? Makes significant induced > > e-fields (and currents) > > in brain tissue? I haven't tried it yet. Who > > dares be the first to drag > > out their twist-drill... > > > > http://night.walker.net/mindorb.htm > > > > > > http://night.walker.net/1stExper.htm > > http://night.walker.net/2ndExper.htm > > http://night.walker.net/protomag.htm > > http://night.walker.net/mindmag.htm > > http://night.walker.net/wavemag.htm > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) > > ))))))))))))))))))) > > William J. Beaty > SCIENCE > > HOBBYIST website > > billb@eskimo.com > > http://amasci.com > > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, > hobby > > projects, sci fair > > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, > > tesla coils, weird sci > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 08:13:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA14399; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:08:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:08:41 -0700 Message-ID: <20030709150833.72876.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:08:33 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Nuclear Power To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030709075138.06a688d0@mail.dlsi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"YMj3u2.0.vW3.u_23_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51130 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i love this one. i used it on a friend that wanted to discuss non euclidean geometry, and obviously knew even less about it than i did. --- stevek wrote: > I'm going out on a limb here to pass along some > humor... > > Steve > > > > A stranger was seated next to Little Tommy on the > plane when the stranger > turned to the boy and said, "Let's talk. I've heard > that flights will go > quicker > if you strike up a conversation with your fellow > passenger." > > Little Tommy, who had just opened his book, closed > it slowly, and said to > the > stranger, "What would you like to discuss?" > > "Oh, I don't know," said the stranger. "How about > nuclear power?" > > "OK," said Little Tommy. "That could be an > interesting topic. But let me ask > you a question first. "A horse, a cow, and a deer > all eat grass. The same > stuff. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a > cow turns out a flat > patty, > and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do > you suppose that is?" > > "Jeez," said the stranger. "I have no idea." > > "Well, then," said Little Tommy, "How is it that you > feel qualified to > discuss nuclear power when you don't know [crap]?" > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 09:25:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA20310; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:20:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:20:10 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030710002237.007b5860@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 00:22:37 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Spin-flipping Gyro In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1iKmi2.0.Gz4.v243_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51131 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:35 08/07/03 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: > >Should not be so. Total angular momentum is not conserved. The system was >in equilibrium when I lightly tapped on a gyro pole to make it flip. It >did not appear to be bearing friction involved, but rather the freedom to >precess in a small orbit in space offered by the bearing looseness. > >Every time I discuss this I get the impression I must have a really bad >memory (which I confess is true!) However, I feel sure about my >recollection at the time that his was quite an anomaly. Just a comment and a question on your "spin-flipping gyro" :- When reading up recently on the theory of gyros I was surprised to find that there are two precessional rates corresponding to the two solutions to the quadratic governing equation - known as "fast" and "slow" precession. The slow one is the one we all are familiar with when a spinning top is acted upon by a steady force such as gravity attempting to tilt its axis. The "fast" one I read "is usually not attainable, because of the very high spin rate required to achieve this motion". In fact I think the author (Haim Baruh in Analytical Dynamics) meant to say the "high _precession_rate_ required to achieve this motion". The equation for the "fast" precession rate indicates that it is of the same order of magnitude and is proportional to the spin rate (with the ratio of the principle moments of inertia being in the equation also). This book also points out that the fast precessional motion is independent of applied forces (such as gravity) and corresponds to torque-free motion (ie floating and tumbling in space). So my guess at what happened is something like this: It was not spinning very rapidly when you decided to give it a tap, so that it was possible to kick it momentarily and without a very great impulse into this stable tumbling motion. It tumbled for half a precessional turn before being jolted back out of this stable tumbling state by impacts and/or reactions from bearings and gymbal rings into its only other stable state which is steady spinning maybe with some left over nutation. If this is the case then what I think you should find is that the angular momentum is essentially unchanged, but that the ends of the axle have swapped places. In other words the spinning disk has swapped end for end AND reversed its spinning direction (apparently a double miracle!). So the question is: You seem to be sure that the axle flipped end for end, but are you also certain that its direction of spin did not also flip ? (I suspect that this may have happened and you did not notice it). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 10:29:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA22723; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:23:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:23:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3F0C4FBF.36E968C5@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:24:15 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex , Jed Rothwell , "Eugene F. Mallove" Subject: [Fwd: AEI Newsletter #102, 7/8/03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ncz2H2.0.tY5.e-43_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51132 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: AEI Newsletter #102, 7/8/03 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 22:02:36 -0700 From: "Alternative Energy Institute" Reply-To: "Alternative Energy Institute" Organization: Alternative Energy Institute To: "Aki" Check out AEI's exciting new book "Turning the Corner: Energy Solutions for the 21st Century." It's your road map to the coming energy revolution! Read a FREE sample chapter and order it here!: http://www.altenergy.org/book/book.html NEW ENERGY REPORT #102 ************************************************************ NEW APOLLO PROGRAM TO ACHIEVE ENERGY INDEPENDENCE ************************************************************ The Alliance Agenda for Action asserts that Americans must pull together to accomplish the challenging goal of national energy security. The Apollo Project for Energy Independence is ready for lift off and the Alliance has a 10-point plan that spells out the critical mission. Among the targets is the promotion of highly efficient hybrid cars, expansion of renewable energy development, modernization of the electric infrastructure, and planning for a new hydrogen economy. 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Check out the details and sign up for email updates from the Apollo Alliance. ---------- Find out more using our quick link page: http://www.altenergy.org/news/newsletter102/newsletter102.html ************************************************************ JLN LABS CLAIMS SUCCESSFUL TABLETOP FUSION ************************************************************ Research scientist Jean-Louis Naudin and his team at JLN Labs seem confident that they have successfully developed a working cold fusion reactor (CFR). The prototype-unit replicates the Mizuno-Ohmori cold fusion experiment and is designed in accordance with an experimental protocol described by Eugene Mallove. The CFR technology is based on the work of Tadahiko Mizuno and Tadayoshi Ohmori, two researchers from the Department of Nuclear Engineering at Hakkaido University in Japan. The story behind their breakthrough research into fusion is well told in the book, Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of Cold Fusion, written by Mizuno and published by Infinite Energy Press in 1998. JLN Labs showcases its claim of excess energy produced in a glass jar with interesting photographs of the experiment in action, along with graphs, charts, and relevant measurement data. This webpage contains links to cold fusion research and documents, as well as several U.S. Patents associated with the release of energy from hydrogen/deuterium atoms. If JLN Labs can successfully replicate their results under objective professional inspection, cold fusion may be back in the headlines again, and this time to stay. ---------- Find out more using our quick link page: http://www.altenergy.org/news/newsletter102/newsletter102.html ************************************************************ TENTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON COLD FUSION ************************************************************ No matter that most mainstream scientists and physicists ridicule the idea of cold fusion, the search for this elusive but intriguing energy source continues. For anyone interested in learning about the latest experimental results and professional research in progress regarding low energy fusion, visit the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF-10) being held in Cambridge, Massachusetts, August 24 - 29, 2003. Consistent with previous ICCF congregations (See AEI's illustrated profile of the 8th International Conference in Lerici, Italy, in 2000 www.altenergy.org/4/iccf8/iccf8.html ), the goal of the 10th International Conference is to further scientific knowledge of effects, identified initially during 1989, with phenomena associated with anomalous, low energy nuclear reactions in condensed matter. The conference is intended to be an open forum for scientific discussions, based on on-going research and existing ideas, related to the advancement of knowledge associated with this topic. ---------- Find out more using our quick link page: http://www.altenergy.org/news/newsletter102/newsletter102.html ************************************************************ AEI ALLY SPOTLIGHT: AMERICAN COUNCIL FOR AN ENERGY EFFICIENT ECONOMY ************************************************************ Persistently high natural gas prices threaten our economy and increase consumer's energy bills. Unfortunately for the U.S.A., a nation that is accelerating its investment in natural gas as a primary energy source, prices are expected to remain high for at least another two years. The American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy (ACEEE) is working on energy efficiency responses to this unfolding crisis that can keep prices from spiking higher and threatening supplies. On June 19, 2003, William R. Prindle, Deputy Director for ACEEE, testified before the House Subcommittee on Energy and Mineral Resources that ACEEE proposes both near-term and longer-term policy responses to the looming crisis in natural gas price and supply. Prindle stated, "In the near term-within the next two to three years-moderating energy demand is the most realistic and effective approach to balancing natural gas markets." The ACEEE also recommends that the Department of Energy should lead a partnership effort among efficiency manufacturers, utilities, states, and others to accelerate efficiency investments and encourage short-term behavior modifications. Natural gas prices hit the wallet hard-a future of supply shortages and higher market costs does not bode well for the consumer or the national economy. ---------- Find out more using our quick link page: http://www.altenergy.org/news/newsletter102/newsletter102.html ************************************************************ GREENLIGHT AWARD: NEW ENGLAND RENEWABLE ENERGY FESTIVAL ************************************************************ Hurry up and make your way to New England's famous SolarFest being held July 12-13, 2003, at Green Mountain College in Poultney, Vermont, rain or shine! The organizers of this exciting renewable energy festival invite you to kick up your heels and come to learn, to dance, to enjoy live music (performed on solar-powered stages) and celebrate a vision of what the future can be. SolarFest was conceived in a meadow in Middletown Springs and nurtured by a community with a vision of a healthy planet. SolarFest has activities, music and workshops for all ages and they hope you will come away from your SolarFest weekend with a list of 3 things that you plan to do this year. The items on your list will be part of the small incremental steps each of us can take toward that vision of a healthy planet. ---------- Find out more using our quick link page: http://www.altenergy.org/news/newsletter102/newsletter102.html *************************************************** This free electronic newsletter is published by the Alternative Energy Institute, Inc., a non-profit educational organization. New Energy Report highlights the latest trends in the rapidly changing field of energy. Tell your friends to sign up now. http://www.altenergy.org Search AEI's publication archives at: www.altenergy.org/News/news.html ************************************************************ The Alternative Energy Institute, Inc. is a 501c(3) non-profit corporation. Contributions are gratefully accepted. To subscribe: Send your name and the word subscribe in the subject to editor@altenergy.org To unsubscribe: Send your name and the word unsubscribe in the subject to editor@altenergy.org For problems with your subscription: Send an email to editor@altenergy.org and we'll take care of it. ************************************************************ All contents are the copyright of AEI. Permission is given to quote with attribution. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 11:23:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA20121; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:17:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:17:54 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:38:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030709143838.83077.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"VlJet1.0.Hw4.Hn53_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51133 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Alex. What Bill is offering is a challenge, in the fashion of this list. It's such a simple experiment, and the web page author provides AMPLE resources for replication. To answer his question, I don't think the setup is powerful enough to create the sort of profound effects possible with this modality. A cap and coil arrangement has been shown to be very effective in this regard, and there is no question as to it's efficacy. Clearly the author is trying to cut production costs by maximizing the field rather than the rate of change, which IMHO is a clever idea but when you look at how nerve cells fire you find the impulse method to be far more potent. To give you some idea about how this is done, consider the following. Charge a large low L cap, and let it discharge across a single turn coil. Stick you hand inside the coil, and increase the charger voltage. At some point, your hand will twitch. You then know that the circuit is generating eddy currents sufficient to cause nerve cells to fire. Now....STICK YOUR HEAD INSIDE THE COIL! Scary stuff, huh? I've never done this myself, and strongly suggest you not do it either. I present it to illustrate what's possible with this experimental modality. If the spinning magnet thing is sufficient to fire neurons, the effects will be profound and unquestionable. "I feel calmer" is not what your guinea pigs are going to be squealing (fiendish chuckle). K. BTW this is very similar to the "torsion" devices that Shiplman (sp?) is/was selling. He also reports these sort of vague effects. Am I missing something on the website Bill, where he describes the more profound effects that one associates with direct brain stimulation? -----Original Message----- From: alexander hollins [mailto:the_leaking_pen@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:39 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets there IS some work going on whith direct target with em of specific areas of the brain. they've done 2 major functions. one is induced autism. by targeting areas of the brain that are generally hyperactive in differnt autistisc types, theyve replicated both the mental problems and the prodigy type mental behavior some show. the article had a reporter under who couldnt draw, and by the end of the ten minute treatment, was doing detailed drawings from memory of a cat. the effect lasts a good hour or so after treatment, and the device isnt that big, and could be run off a laptop. they also mentioned boosting inate understanding of math (like those prodigies that can do massive sums and multiplication ect in their head.) i for one see this as a new method of "cheating" on tests. the other use i've heard about involves stimulating areas of the brain that are shown to be active under the influence of sodium pentothol and other truth serums. leaves teh subject compliant and spilling thier guts without being able to fight, and without all those annoying drug side affects and biochemichal interactions. i havent heard about testing on agents that have gone through immunity training, but it seems to me that it might be more effective on them than drugs. of course any such tests will probably be classified. ahh well. however, on to the product, teh proccess above is a very fine tuned targeting, like laser surgery. this product is like using a shotgun to kill bacteria. large feild, not very aimable, and you'd have to know what to aim at. i for one would not feel comfortable stimulating my ENTIRE brain. i would have to say there are probably things there i would not want to activate. in addition, the description seems to say that its pretty much wiping out short term memory for a while. not my cuppa, thank you very much. i would be willing to keep data and a journal on anyone else willing to try it, and design experiments and protocols if you want to test something in particular. --- William Beaty wrote: > > Does this really work? Makes significant induced > e-fields (and currents) > in brain tissue? I haven't tried it yet. Who > dares be the first to drag > out their twist-drill... > > http://night.walker.net/mindorb.htm > > > http://night.walker.net/1stExper.htm > http://night.walker.net/2ndExper.htm > http://night.walker.net/protomag.htm > http://night.walker.net/mindmag.htm > http://night.walker.net/wavemag.htm > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) > ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE > HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com > http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby > projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, > tesla coils, weird sci > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 12:19:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17120; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:14:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:14:13 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:18:58 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"N4FCQ.0.KB4.5c63_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51134 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW, I have been plagued by power outages. I have had to write this twice! At 6:11 AM 7/9/3, Jones Beene [Frank Grimer] wrote: >AH! Now what I need to know is what happens if the gyros *don't* slow >down. Presumably momentum is transferred from the gyros to the frame >where it is manifest as some kind of twist. Now are you saying that >for this momentum transfer to take place no energy input or output >is involved? I so I find this difficult to understand. Here are the relevant things I said: "... if the shaft is free to bend the gyros on the shaft will quickly be out of alignment and have a net angular momentum. ... If you start out with an elastic frame where the angular momentums of the gyros sum to zero, and you rotate the frame, then the sum of the angular momentums of the gyros will no longer be zero due to precession. It will then take work to perform the rotation, and that work is being transferred into potential energy of the elastic frame, and heat energy too, if the frame is not perfectly elastic." The work performed (by the hand) in rotating the gyros (by causing a mutual exchange of angular momentum between the gyro system and the earth) ends up partially as a change in mutual rotional kinetic energy of the earth and the gyro system, partly as frame tension, and partly in the precession angular velocity of the gyros. Once the gyros are ever so slightly precessed by the initial frame rotation (which is only possible due to the elastic frame to which the axis of rotation is strongly coupled) so as not to have zero net angular momentum in the system, then work is performed on the system as if it were a gyro. Some of that work ends up in the deformation of the frame. The work that ends up in the frame deformation does not end up in the mutual angular momentum between the earth and the frame. The case of the elastic frame is very unlike the case of the perfectly rigid frame where the angular momentums all remain summed to zero and net no work is performed on the angular momentums, and no energy is stored in the form of the mutual angular momentum increase between earth and the gyros. It is interesting that the work performed on the bending of the elastic frame results in permanent gyro precession as long as the tension is maintained. In the case of an imperfectly elastic frame, the precesssion rotational energy will end up as heat and the precession will slow as the tension dissipates. This is all seems not very relevant to the model of the atom or lattice of atoms, however, in that the coupling between the frame and the gyroscope is practically non-existent in the case of the atom. The gimbals are nearly perfect, so it is difficult to induce precession by lattice rotation. I suppose it is very relevant that the nucleus bearings are for all practical purposes perfect, and the angular kinetic energy of the nucleus remains constant. In thinking about your conundrum, I have come up with one of my own, which involves essentially a subset of yours. I think it might be much easier to discuss, and may shed light on the more complex issues. Suppose, as shown in Fig. 1, we have two counter-rotating disks (gyros) sharing the same shaft, and having equal in magnitude but opposed angular momentum. Suppose the middle of the shaft, halfway between the disks, is a flexible spring. Further suppose that in the middle of the spring is mounted a bearing B breaking the spring into two portions that can mutually rotate about the spring axis without friction. This is to avoid concerns about twisting the spring. If we apply torque, an "into the page" force on the top, an "out of page" force at the bottom, then the gyros will precess in opposed directions. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top | X | O | | # # # B # # # | O | X | | | - Shaft # - Spring O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 1 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carried to the extreme, or even just initially set up this way, we can end up with the situation described in Fig. 2. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top O ------------# # X # # B # O # # ------------# X | - Shaft # - Spring (bent) O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 2 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring under tension - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Note that the angular momentum vectors now add. Furthermore, there is a torque applied to each of the gyros by the spring. They are in a state of precession, each precessing in a direction opposed to the other, because the spring applies equal but opposed torque to each of the gyros. The angular momentum of the sytem as shown seems to be at a maximum. If the gyros precess at all, then the angular momentum, without external action, seems to diminish. This seems to me paradoxical. If the gyros each precess 90 degrees then their angular momentum vectors are co-aligned and their angular momentums cancel. However, in this position, and as approaching it, it appears the spring would tend to elongate, pushing the gyros apart, and eventually straightening out as the 90 deg. precession is approached. If this happened then there would be no tension on the spring and the precession would stop, and the gyros would be counter-aligned again, having zero net angular momentum. Very paradoxical. The spring is free to straighten when the gyros are co-aligned (after each precesses 90 degrees) because straightening out the spring only involves a lateral translational movement (see Fig. 3) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top O ------------# # X # # B # # X # #------------ O | - Shaft # - Spring (bent) O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 3 - Diagram showing spring state that can not arise - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In Fig. 3 it is easy to see that the spring has only to accomplish lateral motion of the gyros in order to straighten out. The torque is thus eliminated, and the precession must stop. It is assumed that this state can never actually arise because the spring would be gradually straightening out as the precession occurred. The resolution of the paradox it seems is that the precession of gyros itself carries angular momentum. The angular momentum of two idential aligned gyros in a state of precession in opposed directions (as in Fig. 2) must exactly equal, but be opposed in direction to, the angular momentum of the gyros. As the gyros precess their precession rate diminishes exactly as the net angular momentum of the gyros diminishes. What about the potential energy tied up in the bent spring? It appears that it must end up as vibarional energy, with the two gyros oscillating toward and then away from each other. If the spring is not perfectly elestic then this ends up as heat. Gee, it seems to be a lot easier to answer my own questions. 8^) Is his just a red herring? mmmmm... herring.... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 12:25:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA19307; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:18:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:18:35 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <180.1d0351fb.2c3dc441@aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 15:17:21 EDT Subject: ADVANCED MAGNETIC PROPULSION SYSTEMS By Pajak To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, TomSSchulte@t-online.de, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_180.1d0351fb.2c3dc441_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"lBbZx2.0.aj4.Bg63_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51135 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_180.1d0351fb.2c3dc441_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ADVANCED MAGNETIC PROPULSION SYSTEMS (UFOs, Magnocraft, Free Energy Devices)= =20 Part 1 The Philosophical Foundations by Dr Jan Pajak, Scientific Monograph=20 Dunedin, New Zealand, 1990, ISBN 0=1E9597698=1E9,=1E7=A9 1990 by Dr Jan Paja= k posted at http://www.colonize.com/p/a.php?a=3Dn005004514 l and additional articles= are=20 posted at http://teleki= nesis.50megs.com/index.html I have highlighted some quotes from the above manuscript below: "One of the consequences of discovering the Periodic Principle is the=20 awareness that the electric motor, built by Jacobie around the year 1836, mu= st have a=20 follow-up in the form of a magnetic propulsor. This propulsor should become=20 operational before the year 2036. It will be utilized in the vehicle called=20= the=20 Magnocraft, and its operation will employ the same interactions between=20 magnetic fields which are the basis of the principles of the electric motor.= " "The discovery of the Periodic Principle reveals that the process of=20 inventing is not a spontaneous activity that happens at random. It rather se= ems to be=20 a controlled and predictable consequence of the intellectual state that our=20 civilization reaches at a particular level in its development. It seems that= =20 inventions and ideas are always ready and waiting in the "counter-world"=20 (explained in subsection D2) and some more sensitive individuals have the ab= ility to=20 view and extract them continually. But in order to recognize their meaning a= nd=20 to crystallize their final shape, it is necessary for the civilization in=20 which inventors live to achieve an appropriate level of awareness. There are two separate components of the Periodic Principle. Their=20 conjunction culminates in the creation of a new propelling device. These are= : 1. The conceptual crystallization of an idea, 2. The physical completion of a device. Both of these components are governed by different types of laws. The=20 conceptual crystallization is ruled with an iron hand by the set of laws rel= ated to=20 physics and mathematics. They determine the operation of subsequent devices,= =20 the order of their appearance, and also the approximate time when our=20 civilization will be mature enough to complete them. Moreover, they ensure t= hat in each=20 generation there are a few individuals who can sense a future device and=20 crystallize in their minds its concept. But as we may realize from the content of this monograph, possessing the=20 final concept of a new device does not automatically guarantee its future=20 construction. This is because the physical completion of a new propulsion is= governed=20 by different, sociological laws. The author does not worked out yet their=20 content completely, but he has noticed that they impose a set of very restri= ctive=20 social, moral, educational and philosophical requirements on the nation whic= h=20 is first allowed to complete a new propulsion system. Subsequent chapters fr= om=20 this part of the monograph try to identify some of these requirements=20 (especially chapter E). It appears that the laws of the universe prevent uns= ound=20 nations from overtaking others in the race for the most powerful propelling=20 device." "B2. The basics of propulsion The name "propulsion" is given to a device which is able to produce the=20 motion whose parameters, form, and timing have been previously defined.=20 Therefore the characteristic attribute of all propulsion systems is that eve= ry aspect=20 of the motion produced by them is controllable or is maintained on a constan= t=20 and predictable level. Examples of propulsion are: the electric motor, the=20 wheel of a car, and helicopter blades. There are two main types of propulsion that are currently in use. The=20 first of these is called here a "motor", whereas the second is called a=20 "propulsor". The motor is a type of propulsion which produces a relative mov= ement of=20 one of its parts in relation to another of its parts. An example of a motor=20= is=20 an internal combustion engine in which the movement of a piston occurs in=20 relation to its cylinder, or an electric motor which causes the turning of i= ts=20 rotor relative to its housing. When a motor is joined with elements from another machine, it causes a=20 movement of the combined parts, but it is still a relative movement. For=20 example, a motor in a car forces a rotation of the wheels relative to the bo= dy, a=20 motor in a ventilator causes a rotation of the airscrew relative to the base= , and=20 a motor in a washing machine causes the rotation of the drum relative to the= =20 housing. Motors by themselves never create motion of objects relative to the= ir=20 surroundings, although they can supply the mechanical energy necessary for=20 this movement. For example, the movement of a car relative to the ground is=20 caused by the wheels, not by the motor, and we still have this if the motor=20= is=20 replaced with pedals. We will call the second device which produces motion of complete objects= =20 relative to their surrounding a "propulsor". Propulsors are completely=20 different from motors because they produce an absolute movement, such as the= floating=20 of a boat, the flying of an aeroplane, or the thrust of a rocket. Examples o= f=20 propulsors are the wheels of a car, caterpillar wheels of a tank, a boat=20 propeller, a hovercraft's outlets, helicopter blades, etc. It should be noted here that propulsors are always able to operate in th= e=20 natural environment for which they are created. If, for the operation of a=20 particular propelling device, any man-made rail, bar, duct, channel or=20 transmission pipe is necessary, this device represents the linear motor only= (not a=20 propulsor) in which one stationary part is lengthened to the required distan= ce.=20 For example railways represent linear motors, not propulsors. This can be=20 realized when we look at Blenkinsop's engine (see Figure E1) which for propu= lsion=20 utilized a cog wheel that slotted into teeth on a track. In every propulsion system three different elements must be present.=20 These are: (1) a working medium, (2) an energy transferor and (3) a working=20= space. The working medium is an agent applied in a particular propulsion, whose= =20 function is to absorb one kind of energy and then to return this energy in t= he=20 form of a force interaction creating the motion. Examples of working mediums= =20 are: the force of mechanical elasticity (in a bow), running water (in a wate= r=20 wheel), or a magnetic field (in an electric motor). The energy transferor is a space or a device within the propulsion syste= m=20 where the working medium is produced and where it absorbs the energy that is= =20 later released for the creation of a type of motion. Examples of energy=20 transferors are: the boiler in a steam engine, or coils of electromagnets wi= thin an=20 electric motor. The working space is a space or a device in a propulsion system, where=20 the actual creation of motion occurs. In this space the energy contained wit= hin=20 the working medium is transformed into the work of providing the motion for=20= a=20 propelled object. Examples of working spaces are: the space between the=20 cylinder and the piston in a steam engine, the outlet in a space rocket, or=20= a gap=20 between the rotor and the stator in an electric motor. B2.1. The working medium From the analysis of the propulsion systems completed so far, it becomes= =20 evident that only three types of circulating agents can provide usable worki= ng=20 mediums. These are: (1) a circulation of forces, (2) a circulation of matter= =20 (masses), and (3) a circulation of magnetic field force lines. Thus, all the= =20 known working mediums can be classified into one of three general types (see= =20 the first column in Table B1), depending on which of the above agents the=20 particular medium represents. Because during the development of our civiliza= tion the=20 consecutive types of working medium were discovered and utilized in sequence= ,=20 we may talk about three eras in our history when a particular general type o= f=20 medium was dominant. And so in ancient and medieval times the era of media=20 based on the circulation of forces prevailed (e.g. wheel and axle, flywheel,= =20 spring). Since the invention of the steam engine (1769) until now, the era o= f=20 media based on the circulation of matter has been prevalent (e.g. those used= in a=20 windmill, watermill, airscrew, boat propeller, jet propulsion). At present w= e=20 are approaching the third era, where the circulation of magnetic field force= =20 lines will be employed. Up to now we have completed only the first and the=20 most primitive device, the electric motor, which utilizes the circulation of= =20 magnetic field force lines. But soon a number of more advanced propulsion sy= stems=20 of this kind will become operational. " "A3. This monograph formally proves that UFOs do exist One of the achievements of this monograph is that it presents formal=20 proof that UFOs do exist. This proof is put forward by the author in order t= o show=20 that the Magnocraft's concept is correct and valid. The basic assumption mad= e=20 here was that: if we can prove that some extraterrestrial civilization=20 already uses the Magnocraft, then this also would mean that the entire theor= y behind=20 the Magnocraft is correct and that this vehicle definitely can be built.=20 Putting this in other words, proving that "UFOs are already operational=20 Magnocraft" has the same value as the actual presentation of a working model= of the=20 Magnocraft. After proposing the above assumption the author proceeded with=20 formulating formal proof that "UFOs are already operational Magnocraft". The= scientific=20 methodology applied to this is that of "matching the attributes". To briefly= =20 explain this methodology, it compares subsequent attributes that describe=20 (belong to) two objects, then depending on how these attributes match each o= ther=20 it reasons about the objects themselves. In the case of the discussed proof,= =20 two following sets of attributes were used in comparisons:=20 (1) those which describe the Magnocraft =1E they were derived theoretica= lly=20 from the "Theory of the Magnocraft", and=20 (2) those which describe UFOs =1E they were gathered empirically from th= e=20 observation of UFOs. Because both these sets of attributes match each other perfectly, the object= s=20 that they describe must represent vehicles that operate in an identical=20 manner.=20 Technically, each of the compared vehicles, i.e. UFOs and the Magnocraft= ,=20 were described by 12 classes of non=1Erelated attributes. A list of these is= =20 provided in subsection G12. Within each class a large number of individual=20 attributes were compared. For example within the class of "ability to couple= into=20 flying arrangements" (see subsections G3 and J2.2) as many as 8 individual=20 arrangements of these vehicles were subjected to comparisons (i.e.: #1 =1E s= pherical=20 flying complexes (compare Figures G7 and J11, J26, J30), #2 =1E cigar=1Eshap= ed=20 complexes (compare Figs G8 and J12), #3 =1E fir=1Etree complexes (Figures G1= 0 and=20 J13), #4 =1E detached configurations (Figures G13 and J14, K4, L1), #5 =1E=20 semi=1Eattached configurations (Figures G11, G12 and L2, J15), #6 =1E carrie= r platforms=20 (Figures G14 and J16), #7 =1E flying systems (compare Figure G16 and Figures= J10 =1E=20 shape D/2, M12), and finally #8 =1E flying clusters (see Figures G17 and M13= )).=20 The effect of describing both vehicles by 12 classes of attributes is that a= ll=20 possible differences between the Magnocraft and UFOs can be identified with=20 extreme precision. The enormous potential of differentiating between objects= =20 whose 12 attributes can be varied, illustrates the following hypothetical=20 example of building a series of distinctively different flying vehicles. Thi= s series=20 is assumed to comprise only the vehicles which differ from those previously=20 completed by not less than one (out of 12) attribute. The calculations show=20 that such a series should contain something between 212=3D4096 and as many a= s=20 12!=3D4.79=D7108 different vehicles (depending on how many variations each o= f these 12=20 attributes takes). Practically this means that if we built one such vehicle=20= a=20 year starting immediately after our civilization began, we would still not b= e=20 able to complete the entire series (for comparison our civilization has buil= t=20 flying vehicles for no longer than two centuries and during this time only=20 three new kinds of such devices have been completed, i.e. balloons, aeroplan= es=20 and space rockets). The above example illustrates that the purely coincident= al=20 match of all 12 classes of Magnocraft's and UFOs' attributes is impossible.=20 Thus, from the mathematical probability point of view, the confirmation that= such=20 a total match in fact occurs, suffices as formal proof that "UFOs are alread= y=20 operational Magnocraft".=20 It should be stressed that the proof based on "matching the attributes"= =20 in definition allows unlimited numbers of comparisons (i.e. every fact=20 gathered from a UFO observation can be compared to a corresponding fact deri= ved=20 theoretically from the Magnocraft). Therefore, this kind of proof still rema= ins=20 valid even if the individual attributes of UFOs that it utilizes for some re= ason=20 could not be validated. This characteristic of the proof presented here=20 neutralizes the basic strategy of skeptics being used so=1Efar to abolish pr= evious=20 attempts of proving the existence of UFOs. We know that all these previous=20 attempts were based on single facts (e.g. single observation, single event,=20= single=20 material evidence, etc.). Therefore after the skeptics put this single fact=20= in=20 doubt, the entire proof was invalidated. For the proof presented here this=20 strategy of skeptics would simply not work. In order to put it in doubt they= =20 would need to prove conclusively that all the evidence of UFO manifestations= is=20 non=1Eexistent (philosophically, proving this is impossible). For this reaso= n the=20 deductions presented in this monograph are "skeptics proof". The formal proof that UFOs do exist is presented in chapter J, especiall= y=20 in its subsection J2 with conclusions in subsection J3. Those people whose=20 vital interest in UFOs prompt them to look at this proof first, are welcome=20= to=20 start the reading of this monograph there. But the first part of chapter B=20 (including subsection B4.1) should be read beforehand to learn basics about=20= the=20 Magnocraft, and then the introduction to chapter J (i.e. pages J=1E1 to J= =1E3)=20 should also be looked at. While proceeding with subsection J2, frequent excu= rsions=20 to the appropriate descriptions from chapter G should be made in order to=20 learn the details of the Magnocraft's attributes that are referred to in the= =20 course of deductions" Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om --part1_180.1d0351fb.2c3dc441_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ADVANCED MAGNETIC PROPULSION SYSTEMS (UFOs, Magnocraft= , Free Energy Devices) Part 1 The Philosophical Foundations by Dr Jan Pajak,= Scientific Monograph Dunedin, New Zealand, 1990, ISBN 0=1E9597698=1E9,=1E7= =A9 1990 by Dr Jan Pajak posted at http://www.colonize.com/p/a.php?a=3Dn005004514 l and a= dditional articles are posted at http://telekinesis.50megs.com/index.html

I have highlighted some quotes from the above manuscript below:

"One of the consequences of discovering the Periodic Principle is the awaren= ess that the electric motor, built by Jacobie around the year 1836, must hav= e a follow-up in the form of a magnetic propulsor. This propulsor should bec= ome operational before the year 2036. It will be utilized in the vehicle cal= led the Magnocraft, and its operation will employ the same interactions betw= een magnetic fields which are the basis of the principles of the electric mo= tor."

"The discovery of the Periodic Principle reveals that the process of inventi= ng is not a spontaneous activity that happens at random. It rather seems to=20= be a controlled and predictable consequence of the intellectual state that o= ur civilization reaches at a particular level in its development. It seems t= hat inventions and ideas are always ready and waiting in the "counter-world"= (explained in subsection D2) and some more sensitive individuals have the a= bility to view and extract them continually. But in order to recognize their= meaning and to crystallize their final shape, it is necessary for the civil= ization in which inventors live to achieve an appropriate level of awareness= .

There are two separate components of the Periodic Principle. Their conju= nction culminates in the creation of a new propelling device. These are:
1. The conceptual crystallization of an idea,
2. The physical completion of a device.
Both of these components are governed by different types of laws. The concep= tual crystallization is ruled with an iron hand by the set of laws related t= o physics and mathematics. They determine the operation of subsequent device= s, the order of their appearance, and also the approximate time when our civ= ilization will be mature enough to complete them. Moreover, they ensure that= in each generation there are a few individuals who can sense a future devic= e and crystallize in their minds its concept.

But as we may realize from the content of this monograph, possessing the fin= al concept of a new device does not automatically guarantee its future const= ruction. This is because the physical completion of a new propulsion is gove= rned by different, sociological laws. The author does not worked out yet the= ir content completely, but he has noticed that they impose a set of very res= trictive social, moral, educational and philosophical requirements on the na= tion which is first allowed to complete a new propulsion system. Subsequent=20= chapters from this part of the monograph try to identify some of these requi= rements (especially chapter E). It appears that the laws of the universe pre= vent unsound nations from overtaking others in the race for the most powerfu= l propelling device."

"B2. The basics of propulsion

The name "propulsion" is given to a device which is able to produce the=20= motion whose parameters, form, and timing have been previously defined. Ther= efore the characteristic attribute of all propulsion systems is that every a= spect of the motion produced by them is controllable or is maintained on a c= onstant and predictable level. Examples of propulsion are: the electric moto= r, the wheel of a car, and helicopter blades.
There are two main types of propulsion that are currently in use. The fi= rst of these is called here a "motor", whereas the second is called a "propu= lsor". The motor is a type of propulsion which produces a relative movement=20= of one of its parts in relation to another of its parts. An example of a mot= or is an internal combustion engine in which the movement of a piston occurs= in relation to its cylinder, or an electric motor which causes the turning=20= of its rotor relative to its housing.
When a motor is joined with elements from another machine, it causes a m= ovement of the combined parts, but it is still a relative movement. For exam= ple, a motor in a car forces a rotation of the wheels relative to the body,=20= a motor in a ventilator causes a rotation of the airscrew relative to the ba= se, and a motor in a washing machine causes the rotation of the drum relativ= e to the housing. Motors by themselves never create motion of objects relati= ve to their surroundings, although they can supply the mechanical energy nec= essary for this movement. For example, the movement of a car relative to the= ground is caused by the wheels, not by the motor, and we still have this if= the motor is replaced with pedals.
We will call the second device which produces motion of complete objects= relative to their surrounding a "propulsor". Propulsors are completely diff= erent from motors because they produce an absolute movement, such as the flo= ating of a boat, the flying of an aeroplane, or the thrust of a rocket. Exam= ples of propulsors are the wheels of a car, caterpillar wheels of a tank, a=20= boat propeller, a hovercraft's outlets, helicopter blades, etc.
It should be noted here that propulsors are always able to operate in th= e natural environment for which they are created. If, for the operation of a= particular propelling device, any man-made rail, bar, duct, channel or tran= smission pipe is necessary, this device represents the linear motor only (no= t a propulsor) in which one stationary part is lengthened to the required di= stance. For example railways represent linear motors, not propulsors. This c= an be realized when we look at Blenkinsop's engine (see Figure E1) which for= propulsion utilized a cog wheel that slotted into teeth on a track.
In every propulsion system three different elements must be present. The= se are: (1) a working medium, (2) an energy transferor and (3) a working spa= ce.
The working medium is an agent applied in a particular propulsion, whose= function is to absorb one kind of energy and then to return this energy in=20= the form of a force interaction creating the motion. Examples of working med= iums are: the force of mechanical elasticity (in a bow), running water (in a= water wheel), or a magnetic field (in an electric motor).
The energy transferor is a space or a device within the propulsion syste= m where the working medium is produced and where it absorbs the energy that=20= is later released for the creation of a type of motion. Examples of energy t= ransferors are: the boiler in a steam engine, or coils of electromagnets wit= hin an electric motor.
The working space is a space or a device in a propulsion system, where t= he actual creation of motion occurs. In this space the energy contained with= in the working medium is transformed into the work of providing the motion f= or a propelled object. Examples of working spaces are: the space between the= cylinder and the piston in a steam engine, the outlet in a space rocket, or= a gap between the rotor and the stator in an electric motor.

B2.1. The working medium

From the analysis of the propulsion systems completed so far, it becomes= evident that only three types of circulating agents can provide usable work= ing mediums. These are: (1) a circulation of forces, (2) a circulation of ma= tter (masses), and (3) a circulation of magnetic field force lines. Thus, al= l the known working mediums can be classified into one of three general type= s (see the first column in Table B1), depending on which of the above agents= the particular medium represents. Because during the development of our civ= ilization the consecutive types of working medium were discovered and utiliz= ed in sequence, we may talk about three eras in our history when a particula= r general type of medium was dominant. And so in ancient and medieval times=20= the era of media based on the circulation of forces prevailed (e.g. wheel an= d axle, flywheel, spring). Since the invention of the steam engine (1769) un= til now, the era of media based on the circulation of matter has been preval= ent (e.g. those used in a windmill, watermill, airscrew, boat propeller, jet= propulsion). At present we are approaching the third era, where the circula= tion of magnetic field force lines will be employed. Up to now we have compl= eted only the first and the most primitive device, the electric motor, which= utilizes the circulation of magnetic field force lines. But soon a number o= f more advanced propulsion systems of this kind will become operational.
"

"A3. This monograph formally proves that UFOs do exist

One of the achievements of this monograph is that it presents formal pro= of that UFOs do exist. This proof is put forward by the author in order to s= how that the Magnocraft's concept is correct and valid. The basic assumption= made here was that: if we can prove that some extraterrestrial civilization= already uses the Magnocraft, then this also would mean that the entire theo= ry behind the Magnocraft is correct and that this vehicle definitely can be=20= built. Putting this in other words, proving that "UFOs are already operation= al Magnocraft" has the same value as the actual presentation of a working mo= del of the Magnocraft.
After proposing the above assumption the author proceeded with formulat= ing formal proof that "UFOs are already operational Magnocraft". The scienti= fic methodology applied to this is that of "matching the attributes". To bri= efly explain this methodology, it compares subsequent attributes that descri= be (belong to) two objects, then depending on how these attributes match eac= h other it reasons about the objects themselves. In the case of the discusse= d proof, two following sets of attributes were used in comparisons:
(1) those which describe the Magnocraft =1E they were derived theoretica= lly from the "Theory of the Magnocraft", and
(2) those which describe UFOs =1E they were gathered empirically from th= e observation of UFOs.
Because both these sets of attributes match each other perfectly, the object= s that they describe must represent vehicles that operate in an identical ma= nner.
Technically, each of the compared vehicles, i.e. UFOs and the Magnocraft= , were described by 12 classes of non=1Erelated attributes. A list of these=20= is provided in subsection G12. Within each class a large number of individua= l attributes were compared. For example within the class of "ability to coup= le into flying arrangements" (see subsections G3 and J2.2) as many as 8 indi= vidual arrangements of these vehicles were subjected to comparisons (i.e.: #= 1 =1E spherical flying complexes (compare Figures G7 and J11, J26, J30), #2=20= =1E cigar=1Eshaped complexes (compare Figs G8 and J12), #3 =1E fir=1Etree co= mplexes (Figures G10 and J13), #4 =1E detached configurations (Figures G13 a= nd J14, K4, L1), #5 =1E semi=1Eattached configurations (Figures G11, G12 and= L2, J15), #6 =1E carrier platforms (Figures G14 and J16), #7 =1E flying sys= tems (compare Figure G16 and Figures J10 =1E shape D/2, M12), and finally #8= =1E flying clusters (see Figures G17 and M13)). The effect of describing bo= th vehicles by 12 classes of attributes is that all possible differences bet= ween the Magnocraft and UFOs can be identified with extreme precision. The e= normous potential of differentiating between objects whose 12 attributes can= be varied, illustrates the following hypothetical example of building a ser= ies of distinctively different flying vehicles. This series is assumed to co= mprise only the vehicles which differ from those previously completed by not= less than one (out of 12) attribute. The calculations show that such a seri= es should contain something between 212=3D4096 and as many as 12!=3D4.79=D71= 08 different vehicles (depending on how many variations each of these 12 att= ributes takes). Practically this means that if we built one such vehicle a y= ear starting immediately after our civilization began, we would still not be= able to complete the entire series (for comparison our civilization has bui= lt flying vehicles for no longer than two centuries and during this time onl= y three new kinds of such devices have been completed, i.e. balloons, aeropl= anes and space rockets). The above example illustrates that the purely coinc= idental match of all 12 classes of Magnocraft's and UFOs' attributes is impo= ssible. Thus, from the mathematical probability point of view, the confirmat= ion that such a total match in fact occurs, suffices as formal proof that "U= FOs are already operational Magnocraft".
It should be stressed that the proof based on "matching the attributes"= in definition allows unlimited numbers of comparisons (i.e. every fact gath= ered from a UFO observation can be compared to a corresponding fact derived=20= theoretically from the Magnocraft). Therefore, this kind of proof still rema= ins valid even if the individual attributes of UFOs that it utilizes for som= e reason could not be validated. This characteristic of the proof presented=20= here neutralizes the basic strategy of skeptics being used so=1Efar to aboli= sh previous attempts of proving the existence of UFOs. We know that all thes= e previous attempts were based on single facts (e.g. single observation, sin= gle event, single material evidence, etc.). Therefore after the skeptics put= this single fact in doubt, the entire proof was invalidated. For the proof=20= presented here this strategy of skeptics would simply not work. In order to=20= put it in doubt they would need to prove conclusively that all the evidence=20= of UFO manifestations is non=1Eexistent (philosophically, proving this is im= possible). For this reason the deductions presented in this monograph are "s= keptics proof".
The formal proof that UFOs do exist is presented in chapter J, especiall= y in its subsection J2 with conclusions in subsection J3. Those people whose= vital interest in UFOs prompt them to look at this proof first, are welcome= to start the reading of this monograph there. But the first part of chapter= B (including subsection B4.1) should be read beforehand to learn basics abo= ut the Magnocraft, and then the introduction to chapter J (i.e. pages J=1E1=20= to J=1E3) should also be looked at. While proceeding with subsection J2, fre= quent excursions to the appropriate descriptions from chapter G should be ma= de in order to learn the details of the Magnocraft's attributes that are ref= erred to in the course of deductions"

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_180.1d0351fb.2c3dc441_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 12:41:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA28392; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:34:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:34:35 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:39:27 -0800 To: , From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"8vG-x.0.Ox6.Bv63_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51136 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am working hard to keep my mind intact. Ultimately a losing battle, but still making the struggle all the same! 8^) I don't think I would want to try this on myself or anyone else, even though I too, like the author, have RLS (and apnea), as diagnosed last month in a sleep lab in Anchorage. However, I noticed the author rides a bike in a large park in a jungle setting. I wonder where that is. My wife and I bought bikes about a month ago. We were walking about 2 miles a day, but my back hurt so bad this was slowing down and about to stop. I figured that might just be the beginning of the end for me, as I am very overweight already. However, there was no back pain riding the bikes. I am like a kid again. We started out a few miles a day, but now do a minimum of 10 miles. We did 78 miles over this past 3 day July 4th weekend. We just keep getting stronger. The Matanuska-Susitna valley where I live in Alaska, and also the Anchorage area, must be one of the greatest biking places in the world. Many miles of paved trails and terrific vistas. Near my home are wonderful lush farms and in the background great mountains, one nearby with a sheer face that rises from sea level to about 5000 feet. However, its going to be hard biking come winter. I noticed the author bikes in a "jungle-like" park. I wonder here he is located, or for that matter where any really great winter biking is located, especially low cost of living places. Looks like we might have to become what they call here "snowbirds" - people who go south for extended vacations in winter. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 12:55:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA04173; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:49:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:49:57 -0700 Message-ID: <20030709194951.62065.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:49:51 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: RE: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"sm3Du3.0.x01.a773_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51137 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: if you become a snowbird, here in az is always a good place. i've had back problems from bikes, but only on those new ones with teh floating seat. better cushioned my ASS. (no pun intended. well, okay, maybe a little) --- Horace Heffner wrote: > I am working hard to keep my mind intact. > Ultimately a losing battle, but > still making the struggle all the same! 8^) I > don't think I would want to > try this on myself or anyone else, even though I > too, like the author, have > RLS (and apnea), as diagnosed last month in a sleep > lab in Anchorage. > > However, I noticed the author rides a bike in a > large park in a jungle > setting. I wonder where that is. My wife and I > bought bikes about a month > ago. We were walking about 2 miles a day, but my > back hurt so bad this was > slowing down and about to stop. I figured that > might just be the beginning > of the end for me, as I am very overweight already. > However, there was no > back pain riding the bikes. I am like a kid again. > We started out a few > miles a day, but now do a minimum of 10 miles. We > did 78 miles over this > past 3 day July 4th weekend. We just keep getting > stronger. The > Matanuska-Susitna valley where I live in Alaska, and > also the Anchorage > area, must be one of the greatest biking places in > the world. Many miles > of paved trails and terrific vistas. Near my home > are wonderful lush farms > and in the background great mountains, one nearby > with a sheer face that > rises from sea level to about 5000 feet. However, > its going to be hard > biking come winter. > > I noticed the author bikes in a "jungle-like" park. > I wonder here he is > located, or for that matter where any really great > winter biking is > located, especially low cost of living places. > Looks like we might have > to become what they call here "snowbirds" - people > who go south for > extended vacations in winter. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 13:12:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA11823; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:06:44 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Horace Heffner" Cc: "Vortex" Subject: RE: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:27:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"w69z23.0.Zu2.KN73_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51138 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Horace. It seems pretty harmless, based on what we already know is possible with the modality. Clearly he's not anywhere near serious stimulation of the neurons, and the effects he describes are VERY similar to what one can get from hypnosis. Sounds like a double blind experiment is called for. It's interesting to consider what would be necessary to get a real effect. I'm thinking that a dremel tool could get rotational rates up to a reasonable level, and NIB magnets are small enough to mount. Obviously testing would be done on the hand rather than the head, again with the aim of feeling a "twitch" reaction. I suspect that this may not be possible, but what I like about the magnet idea is that it's cheap and easier to focus than coils. K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 3:39 PM To: knagel@gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets I am working hard to keep my mind intact. Ultimately a losing battle, but still making the struggle all the same! 8^) I don't think I would want to try this on myself or anyone else, even though I too, like the author, have RLS (and apnea), as diagnosed last month in a sleep lab in Anchorage. However, I noticed the author rides a bike in a large park in a jungle setting. I wonder where that is. My wife and I bought bikes about a month ago. We were walking about 2 miles a day, but my back hurt so bad this was slowing down and about to stop. I figured that might just be the beginning of the end for me, as I am very overweight already. However, there was no back pain riding the bikes. I am like a kid again. We started out a few miles a day, but now do a minimum of 10 miles. We did 78 miles over this past 3 day July 4th weekend. We just keep getting stronger. The Matanuska-Susitna valley where I live in Alaska, and also the Anchorage area, must be one of the greatest biking places in the world. Many miles of paved trails and terrific vistas. Near my home are wonderful lush farms and in the background great mountains, one nearby with a sheer face that rises from sea level to about 5000 feet. However, its going to be hard biking come winter. I noticed the author bikes in a "jungle-like" park. I wonder here he is located, or for that matter where any really great winter biking is located, especially low cost of living places. Looks like we might have to become what they call here "snowbirds" - people who go south for extended vacations in winter. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 9 13:41:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA27585; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:36:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:36:37 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:41:34 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spin-flipping Gyro Resent-Message-ID: <"qBSis3.0.xk6.Kp73_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51139 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:22 AM 7/10/3, John Winterflood wrote: >When reading up recently on the theory of gyros I was surprised >to find that there are two precessional rates corresponding to >the two solutions to the quadratic governing equation - known >as "fast" and "slow" precession. The slow one is the one we >all are familiar with when a spinning top is acted upon by a >steady force such as gravity attempting to tilt its axis. The >"fast" one I read "is usually not attainable, because of the >very high spin rate required to achieve this motion". In fact >I think the author (Haim Baruh in Analytical Dynamics) meant >to say the "high _precession_rate_ required to achieve this >motion". Actually, I think he did mean to say high spin rate .. or at least very high spin kinetic energy as compared to the kinetic energy involved in creating the precession. This is discussed in a similar manner in Herbert Goldstein's book, *Classical Mechanics*, p. 217 ff. I got the (apparently false?) impression that this was a fairly normal condition. >The equation for the "fast" precession rate indicates >that it is of the same order of magnitude and is proportional >to the spin rate (with the ratio of the principle moments of >inertia being in the equation also). This book also points >out that the fast precessional motion is independent of applied >forces (such as gravity) and corresponds to torque-free motion >(ie floating and tumbling in space). Well, yes, but total angular velocity is still conserved though, even for torque-free precessing bodies. > >So my guess at what happened is something like this: It >was not spinning very rapidly The gyro was fully up to at least a large constant speed I think. It took a while to get it up to speed, a gradual increasing of DC voltage, in order to prevent motor burn-out. I am not sure it was operated at design speed or voltage though. > when you decided to give it >a tap, so that it was possible to kick it momentarily and >without a very great impulse into this stable tumbling >motion. It tumbled for half a precessional turn before >being jolted back out of this stable tumbling state by >impacts and/or reactions from bearings and gymbal rings >into its only other stable state which is steady spinning >maybe with some left over nutation. This is an interesting hypothesis. I wonder why it consistently flipped very fast, and always 180 degees, though. (I should note that I only observed the event a few times.) It could be that only one gimbal set was in use, and was definitely hand held, and this might account for the 180 degree stop. >If this is the case >then what I think you should find is that the angular >momentum is essentially unchanged, but that the ends of >the axle have swapped places. In other words the spinning >disk has swapped end for end AND reversed its spinning >direction (apparently a double miracle!). Too bad I don't have access to the gyro. (It wasn't mine and I got to play with it over 40 years ago.) It would have been possible to apply more voltage and determine if the gyro was accelerating or decelerating. However, if the direction of rotation had changed too, I think it would have been possible to tell the motor was decellerating the gyro. > >So the question is: You seem to be sure that the axle flipped >end for end, but are you also certain that its direction of >spin did not also flip ? (I suspect that this may have >happened and you did not notice it). This I could not tell! The gyro was encased in a metal enclosure, to which the gimbals were attached. I hesitate to waste a lot of time trying to explain an event that occurred so long ago (or maybe not!). I just felt it might be of experimental interest to those who want to look for anomalies. Any lead is better than no lead at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 10 00:45:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA31055; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 00:43:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 00:43:10 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Massive EV Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:03:48 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"ySltS1.0.9b7.DaH3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51140 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All. Check this out. http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=180&xlc=1022772 It looks rather a bit like one of Ken Shoulders EV's. Made by a really BIG spark. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 10 00:45:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA31243; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 00:43:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 00:43:49 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030710084238.0069acc0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:42:38 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"SFMW61.0.5e7.qaH3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51141 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:18 am 09-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >BTW, I have been plagued by power outages. I have had to write this twice! I used to have a similar problem till I cliked the Queue button at the end of each para. My present problem is that the connection to eskimo.com is very flakey. Often it says that the mail is undeliverable and that this is a permanent error - but it isn't 'cos sometimes it gets through. I don't want to keep bothering Jones so I'll keep sending this one till it does get through. I apologise in advance if its a bit of a tardy response to your email, Horace. Thanks for your extensive reply. I think the answer I asked for is in there somewhere but I'll have to put off reading it till I feel mentally tough enough ;-) I am interested in the performance of system of multiple gyros for a very particular reason. I believe that when we accelerate a body all we are doing is providing a control force in the same way as turning the steering wheel in a large vehicle merely provides a control force. I believe that nature invented power steering long before we did. The idea that we are only "fat controllers" may not appeal to many people but it certainly appeals to me. Materials are far more interesting if they contain cunningly devised servo-mechanisms which respond to our wishes like faithful dogs than if they are simply inert lumps sullenly allowing themselves to be pushed around. Now it's going to be easier to demonstrate the way in which nature's servomechanism works in the case of a rotating body subject to acceleration towards the centre than it is for a body subject to linear acceleration. Why? Well, consider this. One only needs a rotating bucket of water to demonstrate the existence of a rotational frame of reference with respect to the fixed stars. The same demonstration with respect to a fixed frame in relation to linear motion demands a leap of the imagination which is probably beyond most people. However, I don't intend to get involved in turgid arguments with fanatical supporters of relativity ;-) so I won't discuss frames of reference any further. Materials contain lots of rotating thingees. Why? Why is a lump of iron as full of gyros as the local post office [British joke ;-) ]? If such a suggestion were made in the 19 century, it would have been laughed to scorn. Wasn't it obvious that stones and lumps of iron were inert? Break them up into very fine pieces and the pieces are still inert. Even today the average man in the street would have difficulty accepting the concept of thermal vibrations, let alone rapid rotations. And yet zillions of pairs of contra-rotating gyros are screaming out to us, "We are servomechanisms! We are servomechanisms!" At any rate, that's what they're screaming at me. :-) How do they provide us with nature's power steering? It's my breakfast time, so I leave you to chew on that one. Frank Grimer >At 6:11 AM 7/9/3, Jones Beene [Frank Grimer] wrote: > >>AH! Now what I need to know is what happens if the gyros *don't* slow >>down. Presumably momentum is transferred from the gyros to the frame >>where it is manifest as some kind of twist. Now are you saying that >>for this momentum transfer to take place no energy input or output >>is involved? I so I find this difficult to understand. > >Here are the relevant things I said: "... if the shaft is free to bend the >gyros on the shaft will quickly be out of alignment and have a net angular >momentum. ... If you start out with an elastic frame where the angular >momentums of the gyros sum to zero, and you rotate the frame, then the sum >of the angular momentums of the gyros will no longer be zero due to >precession. It will then take work to perform the rotation, and that work >is being transferred into potential energy of the elastic frame, and heat >energy too, if the frame is not perfectly elastic." > >The work performed (by the hand) in rotating the gyros (by causing a mutual >exchange of angular momentum between the gyro system and the earth) ends up >partially as a change in mutual rotational kinetic energy of the earth and >the gyro system, partly as frame tension, and partly in the precession >angular velocity of the gyros. > >Once the gyros are ever so slightly precessed by the initial frame rotation >(which is only possible due to the elastic frame to which the axis of >rotation is strongly coupled) so as not to have zero net angular momentum >in the system, then work is performed on the system as if it were a gyro. >Some of that work ends up in the deformation of the frame. The work that >ends up in the frame deformation does not end up in the mutual angular >momentum between the earth and the frame. The case of the elastic frame is >very unlike the case of the perfectly rigid frame where the angular >momentums all remain summed to zero and net no work is performed on the >angular momentums, and no energy is stored in the form of the mutual >angular momentum increase between earth and the gyros. > >It is interesting that the work performed on the bending of the elastic >frame results in permanent gyro precession as long as the tension is >maintained. In the case of an imperfectly elastic frame, the precession >rotational energy will end up as heat and the precession will slow as the >tension dissipates. > >This is all seems not very relevant to the model of the atom or lattice of >atoms, however, in that the coupling between the frame and the gyroscope is >practically non-existent in the case of the atom. The gimbals are nearly >perfect, so it is difficult to induce precession by lattice rotation. I >suppose it is very relevant that the nucleus bearings are for all practical >purposes perfect, and the angular kinetic energy of the nucleus remains >constant. > >In thinking about your conundrum, I have come up with one of my own, which >involves essentially a subset of yours. I think it might be much easier to >discuss, and may shed light on the more complex issues. Suppose, as shown >in Fig. 1, we have two counter-rotating disks (gyros) sharing the same >shaft, and having equal in magnitude but opposed angular momentum. Suppose >the middle of the shaft, halfway between the disks, is a flexible spring. > >Further suppose that in the middle of the spring is mounted a bearing B >breaking the spring into two portions that can mutually rotate about the >spring axis without friction. This is to avoid concerns about twisting the >spring. > >If we apply torque, an "into the page" force on the top, an "out of page" >force at the bottom, then the gyros will precess in opposed directions. > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > top > > | > X | O > | > | > # > # > # > B > # > # > # > | > O | X > | > | > > > | - Shaft > # - Spring > O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer > X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer > B - Bearing > > > Fig. 1 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Carried to the extreme, or even just initially set up this way, we can end >up with the situation described in Fig. 2. > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > top > > > O > > ------------# > # > X # > # > B > # > O # > # > ------------# > > X > > | - Shaft > # - Spring (bent) > O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer > X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer > B - Bearing > > Fig. 2 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring under tension > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Note that the angular momentum vectors now add. Furthermore, there is a >torque applied to each of the gyros by the spring. They are in a state of >precession, each precessing in a direction opposed to the other, because >the spring applies equal but opposed torque to each of the gyros. > >The angular momentum of the system as shown seems to be at a maximum. If >the gyros precess at all, then the angular momentum, without external >action, seems to diminish. This seems to me paradoxical. > >If the gyros each precess 90 degrees then their angular momentum vectors >are co-aligned and their angular momentums cancel. However, in this >position, and as approaching it, it appears the spring would tend to >elongate, pushing the gyros apart, and eventually straightening out as the >90 deg. precession is approached. If this happened then there would be no >tension on the spring and the precession would stop, and the gyros would be >counter-aligned again, having zero net angular momentum. Very paradoxical. > > > >The spring is free to straighten when the gyros are co-aligned (after each >precesses 90 degrees) because straightening out the spring only involves a >lateral translational movement (see Fig. 3) > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > top > > > O > > ------------# > # > X # > # > B > # > # X > # > #------------ > > O > > | - Shaft > # - Spring (bent) > O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer > X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer > B - Bearing > > Fig. 3 - Diagram showing spring state that can not arise > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >In Fig. 3 it is easy to see that the spring has only to accomplish lateral >motion of the gyros in order to straighten out. The torque is thus >eliminated, and the precession must stop. It is assumed that this state >can never actually arise because the spring would be gradually >straightening out as the precession occurred. > >The resolution of the paradox it seems is that the precession of gyros >itself carries angular momentum. The angular momentum of two identical >aligned gyros in a state of precession in opposed directions (as in Fig. 2) >must exactly equal, but be opposed in direction to, the angular momentum of >the gyros. As the gyros precess their precession rate diminishes exactly >as the net angular momentum of the gyros diminishes. > >What about the potential energy tied up in the bent spring? It appears >that it must end up as vibrational energy, with the two gyros oscillating >toward and then away from each other. If the spring is not perfectly >elastic then this ends up as heat. > >Gee, it seems to be a lot easier to answer my own questions. 8^) Is his >just a red herring? mmmmm... herring.... > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 10 07:14:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA18423; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:12:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:12:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:16:53 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight changes - some suggestions for Nicholas Reiter Resent-Message-ID: <"3FF6c3.0.iV4.pGN3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51142 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:42 AM 7/10/3, Grimer wrote: >At 11:18 am 09-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >I apologise in advance if its a bit of a tardy >response to your email, Horace. There is no hurry here! I've been spending too much time on fun things myself, leaving chores undone. I get in bicycling time now though! 8^) > >Thanks for your extensive reply. I think the answer I asked for is in >there somewhere but I'll have to put off reading it till I feel >mentally tough enough ;-) > >I am interested in the performance of system of multiple >gyros for a very particular reason. I believe that when >we accelerate a body all we are doing is providing a >control force in the same way as turning the steering >wheel in a large vehicle merely provides a control force. >I believe that nature invented power steering long before >we did. The idea that we are only "fat controllers" may >not appeal to many people but it certainly appeals to me. I could use a little more fat control! 8^) >Materials are far more interesting if they contain >cunningly devised servo-mechanisms which respond to our >wishes like faithful dogs than if they are simply inert >lumps sullenly allowing themselves to be pushed around. > >Now it's going to be easier to demonstrate the way >in which nature's servomechanism works in the case >of a rotating body subject to acceleration towards >the centre than it is for a body subject to linear >acceleration. Why? Well, consider this. > >One only needs a rotating bucket of water to >demonstrate the existence of a rotational frame >of reference with respect to the fixed stars. >The same demonstration with respect to a fixed >frame in relation to linear motion demands a >leap of the imagination which is probably beyond >most people. However, I don't intend to get >involved in turgid arguments with fanatical >supporters of relativity ;-) so I won't discuss >frames of reference any further. Aether believers are commonplace on vortex. I think those that don't keep a somewhat open mind. Its jsust a bunch of wild eyed scientific radicals. 8^) Personally, I think it would be mighty convenient if the vacuum had something handy to "push" on. > >Materials contain lots of rotating thingees. Why? >Why is a lump of iron as full of gyros as the >local post office [British joke ;-) ]? If such a >suggestion were made in the 19 century, it would >have been laughed to scorn. Odd you should mention iron. I have been thinking about it. What bothers me about iron is that fact that it does not seem to exhibit any gyroscopic behavior. When a magnetic field H is applied lots of magnetic domains line up, but if you spin the iron, even if the field generator H is rotated with it, it does not exhibit major gyroscopic properties. I suppose this is mostly due to the fact that magnetism is principly an electron spin effect, not a nuclear effect. Earlier I wrote: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Transition metal atoms have a permanent magnetic moment. However, Hall notes that these nucleii are typically kept far apart in a lattice. He gives: B ~ mu0 mu/(4 Pi a^3) where mu is the Bohr magneton (~ 10^-23 A m^2) and (a ~ 3 angstroms). The interaction energy bewteen ion pairs is thus given as: delta E ~ mu B delta E ~ 10^-7 * 10^-46/(10^-29) ~ 3x10^-25 joule delta E ~ 0.03 K" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I should have realized that this appiles to imbalanced electrons, not nucleii as I said above, though the nucleii are indeed typically kept far apart in a lattice. The above refers principly to the transition metal K shells and the F shells of rare earth metals, though the 1/r^3 magnetic dipole field strength, and thus torque strength proportionality, applies to nuclei as well. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 10 13:01:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA32396; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:58:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:58:42 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:03:34 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"n7XaB1.0._v7.oLS3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51143 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to start a new thread name here to discuss the gyro issue, as we have long ago stopped talking about Nicholas Reiter's issues. BTW, I hope he is having a nice safe vacation and hasn't been given an alien citation for littering. 8^) The following restates, clarifies, and further discusses the proposed gyroscope paradox issues. GYRO PARADOX Suppose, as shown in Fig. 1, we have two counter-rotating disks (gyros) sharing the same shaft, and having equal in magnitude but opposed angular momentum. Suppose the middle of the shaft, halfway between the disks, is a flexible spring. Further suppose that in the middle of the spring is mounted a bearing B breaking the spring into two portions that can mutually rotate about the spring axis without friction. This is to avoid concerns about axially twisting the spring. It is assumed there are disks mounted on bearings on the rigid portions of the shaft of the gyros. In the cross section diagrams "X" or "O" is used to indicate the direction of the disk mass motion. There is no axial torque applied to the spring. If we apply torque, an "into the page" force on the top, an "out of page" force at the bottom, then the gyros will precess in opposed directions. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top | X | O | | # # # B # # # | O | X | | | - Shaft # - Spring O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 1 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carried to the extreme, or even just initially set up this way, we can end up with the situation described in Fig. 2. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top O ------------# # X # # B # O # # ------------# X | - Shaft # - Spring (bent) O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 2 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring under tension - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Note that the angular momentum vectors now add. Furthermore, there is a torque applied to each of the gyros by the spring. They are in a state of precession, each precessing in a direction opposed to the other, because the spring applies equal but opposed torque to each of the gyros. The angular momentum of the system as shown seems to be at a maximum. If the gyros precess at all, then the angular momentum, without external action, seems to diminish. This seems to me paradoxical. If the gyros each precess 90 degrees (one moving into the page, and one out of the page) then their angular momentum vectors are co-aligned and their angular momentums cancel. However, in this position, and as approaching it, it appears the spring would tend to elongate, pushing the gyros apart, eventually straightening out as the 90 deg. precession is approached. If this happened then there would be no tension on the spring and the precession would stop, and the gyros would be counter-aligned again, having zero net angular momentum. Very paradoxical. The spring is free to straighten when the gyros are co-aligned (after each precesses 90 degrees from the Fig. 2 position) because straightening out the spring only involves a lateral translational movement (see Fig. 3) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top O ------------# # X # # B # # X # #------------ O | - Shaft # - Spring (bent) O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 3 - Diagram showing spring state that can not arise - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In Fig. 3 it is easy to see that the spring has only to accomplish lateral motion of the gyros in order to straighten out. Once the spring is straight, the torque is thus eliminated, and the precession must stop. It is assumed that the state in Fig. 3 can never actually arise because the spring would be gradually straightening out as the precession occurred. By the time the full 90 degree precession occurs the spring should be about straight. There would in fact probably be numerous vibratory positions which induce torques on the gyros and thus additional and various kinds of spring oscillations set up by this process, but after the first 90 degrees rotation the average angular momentum of the system should remain at zero. It further appears that, since the spring tension is reduced as the 90 degree precession occurs, that the precession rate will diminish as it approaches the full 90 degree point. The resolution of the paradox it seems is that the precession of gyros itself carries angular momentum. The angular momentum of two identical aligned gyros in a state of precession in opposed directions (as in Fig. 2) must exactly equal, but be opposed in direction to, the angular momentum of the gyros. As the gyros precess their precession rate diminishes exactly as the net angular momentum of the gyros diminishes. What about the potential energy tied up in the bent spring? It appears that it must end up as vibrational energy, with the two gyros oscillating toward and then away from each other. If the spring is not perfectly elastic then this ends up as heat. The above resolution is very unsatisfying. If we manually create the Fig. 2 configuration, with the gyros not rotating, all we have done is bent the spring. There is no torque applied to the earth to do that, and the spring has no angular momentum. To complete the Fig. 2 configuration, the gyros must now be started, and this angular acceleration transfers twice the angular momentum of one gyro to the earth. If the system can reach a state where this angular momentum has been converted to an average of zero angular momentum, then there is no conservation of angular momentum. The argument that the precessional angular momentum doesn't hold water either, because, while starting the gyros, the spring can be held in position, say by a clip. When the gyros are up to speed, the clip can be removed. Removing the clip starts the precession. If the precession has a net angular momentum, then that angular momentum has no antecedent, and thus conservation of angular momentum is violated again. Note also, that if the gyro axes ever even momentarily line up, then their mutual angular momentum can be used to brake them to zero angular momentum. All very paradoxical. Where have I gone wrong? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 10 14:45:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA05205; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:43:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:43:07 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:48:04 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"NwHFa2.0.0H1.gtT3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51144 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: GYRO PARADOX Suppose, as shown in Fig. 1, we have two counter-rotating disks (gyros) sharing the same shaft, and having equal in magnitude but opposed angular momentum. Suppose the middle of the shaft, halfway between the disks, is a flexible spring. Further suppose that in the middle of the spring is mounted a bearing B breaking the spring into two portions that can mutually rotate about the spring axis without friction. This is to avoid concerns about axially twisting the spring. It is assumed there are disks mounted on bearings on the rigid portions of the shaft of the gyros. In the cross section diagrams "X" or "O" is used to indicate the direction of the disk mass motion. There is no axial torque applied to the spring. If we apply torque, an "into the page" force on the top, an "out of page" force at the bottom, then the gyros will precess in opposed directions. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top | X | O | | # # # B # # # | O | X | | | - Shaft # - Spring O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 1 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carried to the extreme, or even just initially set up this way, we can end up with the situation described in Fig. 2. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top O ------------# # X # # B # O # # ------------# X | - Shaft # - Spring (bent) O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 2 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring under tension - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Note that the angular momentum vectors now add. Furthermore, there is a torque applied to each of the gyros by the spring. They are in a state of precession, each precessing in a direction opposed to the other, because the spring applies equal but opposed torque to each of the gyros. The angular momentum of the system as shown seems to be at a maximum. If the gyros precess at all, then the angular momentum, without external action, seems to diminish. This seems to me paradoxical. If the gyros each precess 90 degrees (one moving into the page, and one out of the page) then their angular momentum vectors are co-aligned and their angular momentums cancel. However, in this position, and as approaching it, it appears the spring would tend to elongate, pushing the gyros apart, eventually straightening out as the 90 deg. precession is approached. If this happened then there would be no tension on the spring and the precession would stop, and the gyros would be counter-aligned again, having zero net angular momentum. Very paradoxical. The spring is free to straighten when the gyros are co-aligned (after each precesses 90 degrees from the Fig. 2 position) because straightening out the spring only involves a lateral translational movement (see Fig. 3) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top O ------------# # X # # B # # X # #------------ O | - Shaft # - Spring (bent) O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing Fig. 3 - Diagram showing spring state that can not arise - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In Fig. 3 it is easy to see that the spring has only to accomplish lateral motion of the gyros in order to straighten out. Once the spring is straight, the torque is thus eliminated, and the precession must stop. It is assumed that the state in Fig. 3 can never actually arise because the spring would be gradually straightening out as the precession occurred. By the time the full 90 degree precession occurs the spring should be about straight. There would in fact probably be numerous vibratory positions which induce torques on the gyros and thus additional and various kinds of spring oscillations set up by this process, but after the first 90 degrees rotation the average angular momentum of the system should remain at zero. It further appears that, since the spring tension is reduced as the 90 degree precession occurs, that the precession rate will diminish as it approaches the full 90 degree point. The resolution of the paradox it seems is that the precession of gyros itself carries angular momentum. The angular momentum of two identical aligned gyros in a state of precession in opposed directions (as in Fig. 2) must exactly equal, but be opposed in direction to, the angular momentum of the gyros. As the gyros precess their precession rate diminishes exactly as the net angular momentum of the gyros diminishes. What about the potential energy tied up in the bent spring? It appears that it must end up as vibrational energy, with the two gyros oscillating toward and then away from each other. If the spring is not perfectly elastic then this ends up as heat. The above resolution is very unsatisfying. If we manually create the Fig. 2 configuration, with the gyros not rotating, all we have done is bent the spring. There is no torque applied to the earth to do that, and the spring has no angular momentum. To complete the Fig. 2 configuration, the gyros must now be started, and this angular acceleration transfers twice the angular momentum of one gyro to the earth. If the system can reach a state where this angular momentum has been converted to an average of zero angular momentum, then there is no conservation of angular momentum. The argument that the precessional angular momentum compensates the net gyro axial angular momentum doesn't hold water either, because, while starting the gyros, the spring can be held in position, say by a clip. When the gyros are up to speed, the clip can be removed. Removing the clip starts the precession. If the precession has a net angular momentum, then that angular momentum has no antecedent, and thus conservation of angular momentum is violated again. The source of the precessional angular momentum can be answered in part by the fact that, if the situation in Fig. 2 is contrived as the starting point, then upon release of the clip, the gyros will separate to an angle theta where precession is in equilibrium. However, it seems the gyros still precess and though the angles are changed, the basic principle holds that as their axes more closely align the tension on the spring is reduced, the spring is free to straighten out, the precession rate slows, etc. Perhaps the 3D spring deformation is such that in steady state precession the gyros can maintain a constant angle with each other? In that case the spring might be made so as to have flexibility only in one plane, like a bicycle chain with a spring along its length wired to every link. Such an arrangement would make it easier to build a real device, because the main bearing B could then be mounted on a shaft attached to gimbals. The gyros would then not be as likely to collide with the shaft supporting the bearing B. Note also, that if the gyro axes ever even momentarily line up, then their mutual angular momentum can be used to brake them to zero angular momentum. This leaves the earth or the initiator of the process with net angular momentum. All very paradoxical. Where have I gone wrong? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 10 22:33:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA10306; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 22:32:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 22:32:51 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:30:36 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20030709150724.71655.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"T1eg13.0.yW2.3ma3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51145 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The rest of this interesting story found at: www.wireheading.com/brainstim/savant.html , as well as a related tidbit from the NIH in 1998: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/pressrelease_tms_012998.htm?type=ar chived. My favorite quote from the piece: "Anything is possible," says Prof. Vilayanur Ramachandran, director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California at San Diego and the noted author of 'Phantoms in the Brain.' Snyder's theories have not been proved, he allows, but they are brilliantly suggestive: "We're at the same stage in brain research that biology was in the 19th century. We know almost nothing about the mind. Snyder's theories may sound like 'The X-Files,' but what he's saying is completely plausible. Up to a point the brain is open, malleable and constantly changing. We might well be able to make it run in new ways." Of those who dismiss Snyder's theories out of hand, he shrugs: "People are often blind to new ideas. Especially scientists." > -----Original Message----- > From: alexander hollins [mailto:the_leaking_pen@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2003 July 09 22:07 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets > > > heres the first page of the article. > > its a nytimes article, so to read the rest of it, id > have to buy it, now that its archived. > > sorry > > > By LAWRENCE OSBORNE > > > n a concrete basement at the University of Sydney, I > sat in a chair waiting to have my brain altered by an > electromagnetic pulse. My forehead was connected, by a From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 00:17:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA11119; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:16:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:16:24 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030711081513.006884b0@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:15:13 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"TDyol.0.ej2.7Hc3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51146 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:03 pm 10-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >I would like to start a new thread name here to discuss the gyro issue, as >we have long ago stopped talking about Nicholas Reiter's issues. BTW, I >hope he is having a nice safe vacation and hasn't been given an alien >citation for littering. 8^) The following restates, clarifies, and >further discusses the proposed gyroscope paradox issues. > > >GYRO PARADOX > >Suppose, as shown in Fig. 1, we have two counter-rotating disks (gyros) >sharing the same shaft, and having equal in magnitude but opposed angular >momentum. Suppose the middle of the shaft, halfway between the disks, is a >flexible spring. > >Further suppose that in the middle of the spring is mounted a bearing B >breaking the spring into two portions that can mutually rotate about the >spring axis without friction. This is to avoid concerns about axially >twisting the spring. It is assumed there are disks mounted on bearings on >the rigid portions of the shaft of the gyros. In the cross section >diagrams "X" or "O" is used to indicate the direction of the disk mass >motion. There is no axial torque applied to the spring. > >If we apply torque, an "into the page" force on the top, an "out of page" >force at the bottom, then the gyros will precess in opposed directions. > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > top > > | > X | O > | > | > # > # > # > B > # > # > # > | > O | X > | > | > > > | - Shaft > # - Spring > O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer > X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer > B - Bearing > > > Fig. 1 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Carried to the extreme, or even just initially set up this way, we can end >up with the situation described in Fig. 2. > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > top > > > O > > ------------# > # > X # > # > B > # > O # > # > ------------# > > X > > | - Shaft > # - Spring (bent) > O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer > X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer > B - Bearing > > Fig. 2 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring under tension > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Note that the angular momentum vectors now add. Furthermore, there is a >torque applied to each of the gyros by the spring. They are in a state of >precession, each precessing in a direction opposed to the other, because >the spring applies equal but opposed torque to each of the gyros. > >The angular momentum of the system as shown seems to be at a maximum. If >the gyros precess at all, then the angular momentum, without external >action, seems to diminish. This seems to me paradoxical. > >If the gyros each precess 90 degrees (one moving into the page, and one out >of the page) then their angular momentum vectors are co-aligned and their >angular momentums cancel. However, in this position, and as approaching >it, it appears the spring would tend to elongate, pushing the gyros apart, >eventually straightening out as the 90 deg. precession is approached. If >this happened then there would be no tension on the spring and the >precession would stop, and the gyros would be counter-aligned again, having >zero net angular momentum. Very paradoxical. > >The spring is free to straighten when the gyros are co-aligned (after each >precesses 90 degrees from the Fig. 2 position) because straightening out >the spring only involves a lateral translational movement (see Fig. 3) > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > top > > > O > > ------------# > # > X # > # > B > # > # X > # > #------------ > > O > > | - Shaft > # - Spring (bent) > O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer > X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer > B - Bearing > > Fig. 3 - Diagram showing spring state that can not arise > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >In Fig. 3 it is easy to see that the spring has only to accomplish lateral >motion of the gyros in order to straighten out. Once the spring is >straight, the torque is thus eliminated, and the precession must stop. It >is assumed that the state in Fig. 3 can never actually arise because the >spring would be gradually straightening out as the precession occurred. By >the time the full 90 degree precession occurs the spring should be about >straight. There would in fact probably be numerous vibratory positions >which induce torques on the gyros and thus additional and various kinds of >spring oscillations set up by this process, but after the first 90 degrees >rotation the average angular momentum of the system should remain at zero. >It further appears that, since the spring tension is reduced as the 90 >degree precession occurs, that the precession rate will diminish as it >approaches the full 90 degree point. > >The resolution of the paradox it seems is that the precession of gyros >itself carries angular momentum. The angular momentum of two identical >aligned gyros in a state of precession in opposed directions (as in Fig. 2) >must exactly equal, but be opposed in direction to, the angular momentum of >the gyros. As the gyros precess their precession rate diminishes exactly >as the net angular momentum of the gyros diminishes. > >What about the potential energy tied up in the bent spring? It appears >that it must end up as vibrational energy, with the two gyros oscillating >toward and then away from each other. If the spring is not perfectly >elastic then this ends up as heat. > >The above resolution is very unsatisfying. If we manually create the Fig. >2 configuration, with the gyros not rotating, all we have done is bent the >spring. There is no torque applied to the earth to do that, and the spring >has no angular momentum. To complete the Fig. 2 configuration, the gyros >must now be started, and this angular acceleration transfers twice the >angular momentum of one gyro to the earth. If the system can reach a state >where this angular momentum has been converted to an average of zero >angular momentum, then there is no conservation of angular momentum. > >The argument that the precessional angular momentum doesn't hold water >either, because, while starting the gyros, the spring can be held in >position, say by a clip. When the gyros are up to speed, the clip can be >removed. Removing the clip starts the precession. If the precession has a >net angular momentum, then that angular momentum has no antecedent, and >thus conservation of angular momentum is violated again. > >Note also, that if the gyro axes ever even momentarily line up, then their >mutual angular momentum can be used to brake them to zero angular momentum. > >All very paradoxical. Where have I gone wrong? > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > Bending an elastic material changes the velocity and orientations of the internal closed path motions. Visualizing these closed path motions as little spinning gyros the ones in the tensile zones are slowing down: the ones in the compression zones are speeding up. Moreover, the gyros are changing their relative orientations. One can get a rough visualization of what is going on by considering the effect that anticlastic distortion of a bent beam. 1------------------------l 1 1 1 1 1 compression zone 1 1 1 1 1 1------------------------1 1-------------l 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 tension 1 1 zone 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1-------------1 Unfortunately the closed path motions that are taking place are on such a fine scale that it is difficult to appreciate their existence. The situation is analogous to the transformation of the kinetic energy of a macro body into the kinetic energy of micro bodies below the threshold of perception. Was it Leibniz who said "Motion can only come from motion" I'm happy to go along with him on that one. :-) I feel confident that one day it will be realised that even the property of mass is only a form of very fine closed path motion. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 00:33:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA25820; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:32:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:32:42 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:32:24 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"Afee81.0.KJ6.PWc3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51147 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horce Heffner posted > >Note also, that if the gyro axes ever even momentarily line up, then their >mutual angular momentum can be used to brake them to zero angular momentum. > >All very paradoxical. Where have I gone wrong? > Have you read Robert Cook's patent? According to his financial backer, the machine, when suspended from a rope, would move over to the side and stay there. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 01:16:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA13340; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:15:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:15:32 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:20:34 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"MQcxy.0.EG3.a8d3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51149 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:32 AM 7/11/3, thomas malloy wrote: > >Have you read Robert Cook's patent? According to his financial >backer, the machine, when suspended from a rope, would move over to >the side and stay there. I don't think it actually does that. It is in a vibrating state. It is only its mean location based on the exterior dimensions of the box or the angle of the rope that moves. I think that can be readily achieved by having a heavy weight that starts in the middle of the box and quickly moves to one side of the box and then back to the middle. The box, meanwhile, appears to qickly move in the opposite direction. The true center of mass, however, has actually not moved. The rope moves a bit to the right and then back to vertical. On average it appears the rope is pulled to the right. A real test requires running in space. An impressive result would be if the box moved completely outside its normal hanging position and stayed there without vibrating. If memory serves, the cook device only moved a couple inches in the Boeing test. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 01:16:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA13297; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:15:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:15:32 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:20:25 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"hwA3g1.0.ZF3.Z8d3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51148 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:15 AM 7/11/3, Grimer wrote: >At 12:03 pm 10-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >>I would like to start a new thread name here to discuss the gyro issue, as >>we have long ago stopped talking about Nicholas Reiter's issues. BTW, I >>hope he is having a nice safe vacation and hasn't been given an alien >>citation for littering. 8^) The following restates, clarifies, and >>further discusses the proposed gyroscope paradox issues. >> >> >>GYRO PARADOX >> >>Suppose, as shown in Fig. 1, we have two counter-rotating disks (gyros) >>sharing the same shaft, and having equal in magnitude but opposed angular >>momentum. Suppose the middle of the shaft, halfway between the disks, is a >>flexible spring. >> >>Further suppose that in the middle of the spring is mounted a bearing B >>breaking the spring into two portions that can mutually rotate about the >>spring axis without friction. This is to avoid concerns about axially >>twisting the spring. It is assumed there are disks mounted on bearings on >>the rigid portions of the shaft of the gyros. In the cross section >>diagrams "X" or "O" is used to indicate the direction of the disk mass >>motion. There is no axial torque applied to the spring. >> >>If we apply torque, an "into the page" force on the top, an "out of page" >>force at the bottom, then the gyros will precess in opposed directions. >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> top >> >> | >> X | O >> | >> | >> # >> # >> # >> B >> # >> # >> # >> | >> O | X >> | >> | >> >> >> | - Shaft >> # - Spring >> O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer >> X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer >> B - Bearing >> >> >> Fig. 1 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >>Carried to the extreme, or even just initially set up this way, we can end >>up with the situation described in Fig. 2. >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> top >> >> >> O >> >> ------------# >> # >> X # >> # >> B >> # >> O # >> # >> ------------# >> >> X >> >> | - Shaft >> # - Spring (bent) >> O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer >> X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer >> B - Bearing >> >> Fig. 2 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring under tension >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >>Note that the angular momentum vectors now add. Furthermore, there is a >>torque applied to each of the gyros by the spring. They are in a state of >>precession, each precessing in a direction opposed to the other, because >>the spring applies equal but opposed torque to each of the gyros. >> >>The angular momentum of the system as shown seems to be at a maximum. If >>the gyros precess at all, then the angular momentum, without external >>action, seems to diminish. This seems to me paradoxical. >> >>If the gyros each precess 90 degrees (one moving into the page, and one out >>of the page) then their angular momentum vectors are co-aligned and their >>angular momentums cancel. However, in this position, and as approaching >>it, it appears the spring would tend to elongate, pushing the gyros apart, >>eventually straightening out as the 90 deg. precession is approached. If >>this happened then there would be no tension on the spring and the >>precession would stop, and the gyros would be counter-aligned again, having >>zero net angular momentum. Very paradoxical. >> >>The spring is free to straighten when the gyros are co-aligned (after each >>precesses 90 degrees from the Fig. 2 position) because straightening out >>the spring only involves a lateral translational movement (see Fig. 3) >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> top >> >> >> O >> >> ------------# >> # >> X # >> # >> B >> # >> # X >> # >> #------------ >> >> O >> >> | - Shaft >> # - Spring (bent) >> O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer >> X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer >> B - Bearing >> >> Fig. 3 - Diagram showing spring state that can not arise >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >>In Fig. 3 it is easy to see that the spring has only to accomplish lateral >>motion of the gyros in order to straighten out. Once the spring is >>straight, the torque is thus eliminated, and the precession must stop. It >>is assumed that the state in Fig. 3 can never actually arise because the >>spring would be gradually straightening out as the precession occurred. By >>the time the full 90 degree precession occurs the spring should be about >>straight. There would in fact probably be numerous vibratory positions >>which induce torques on the gyros and thus additional and various kinds of >>spring oscillations set up by this process, but after the first 90 degrees >>rotation the average angular momentum of the system should remain at zero. >>It further appears that, since the spring tension is reduced as the 90 >>degree precession occurs, that the precession rate will diminish as it >>approaches the full 90 degree point. >> >>The resolution of the paradox it seems is that the precession of gyros >>itself carries angular momentum. The angular momentum of two identical >>aligned gyros in a state of precession in opposed directions (as in Fig. 2) >>must exactly equal, but be opposed in direction to, the angular momentum of >>the gyros. As the gyros precess their precession rate diminishes exactly >>as the net angular momentum of the gyros diminishes. >> >>What about the potential energy tied up in the bent spring? It appears >>that it must end up as vibrational energy, with the two gyros oscillating >>toward and then away from each other. If the spring is not perfectly >>elastic then this ends up as heat. >> >>The above resolution is very unsatisfying. If we manually create the Fig. >>2 configuration, with the gyros not rotating, all we have done is bent the >>spring. There is no torque applied to the earth to do that, and the spring >>has no angular momentum. To complete the Fig. 2 configuration, the gyros >>must now be started, and this angular acceleration transfers twice the >>angular momentum of one gyro to the earth. If the system can reach a state >>where this angular momentum has been converted to an average of zero >>angular momentum, then there is no conservation of angular momentum. >> >>The argument that the precessional angular momentum doesn't hold water >>either, because, while starting the gyros, the spring can be held in >>position, say by a clip. When the gyros are up to speed, the clip can be >>removed. Removing the clip starts the precession. If the precession has a >>net angular momentum, then that angular momentum has no antecedent, and >>thus conservation of angular momentum is violated again. >> >>Note also, that if the gyro axes ever even momentarily line up, then their >>mutual angular momentum can be used to brake them to zero angular momentum. >> >>All very paradoxical. Where have I gone wrong? >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner >> > > >Bending an elastic material changes the velocity and >orientations of the internal closed path motions. >Visualizing these closed path motions as little spinning >gyros the ones in the tensile zones are slowing down: >the ones in the compression zones are speeding up. >Moreover, the gyros are changing their relative orientations. > >One can get a rough visualization of what is going on by >considering the effect that anticlastic distortion of >a bent beam. > > > 1------------------------l > 1 1 > 1 1 > 1 compression zone 1 > 1 1 > 1 1 > 1------------------------1 > > > 1-------------l > 1 1 > 1 1 > 1 1 > 1 tension 1 > 1 zone 1 > 1 1 > 1 1 > 1 1 > 1-------------1 > > >Unfortunately the closed path motions that are taking >place are on such a fine scale that it is difficult to >appreciate their existence. > >The situation is analogous to the transformation of >the kinetic energy of a macro body into the kinetic energy >of micro bodies below the threshold of perception. > >Was it Leibniz who said "Motion can only come from motion" >I'm happy to go along with him on that one. :-) > >I feel confident that one day it will be realised that >even the property of mass is only a form of very fine >closed path motion. > >Frank Grimer The above response seems to be completely irrelevant to the gyro paradox problem stated above in this thread. Is that correct? A real spring in a real experiment ends up in the same final state (unbent), in any case, whether it started out supporting gyros with angular momentum, or dead weights. The paradox is the same. Where has the angular momentum gone? Are you saying the spring innards are somehow differently affected by waving around gyros verses dead weights, or even live people for that matter? Unless one of Newton'slaws is broken, then conservation of angular momentum can not be broken, because it is a direct and provable consequence of Newton's laws. For that reason, I think there is probably an easily visualized answer to the gyro paradox problem I posed in this thread, but I don't see it offhand. The gyro paradox problem is obviously strongly linked to the problems you stated about many gyros mounted in an elastic frame, so it seems to deserve some serious inspection. If a real experiment were to be done, it does not appear that it could be easily done excpept maybe by launching the device into the air before removing the clip holding the gyros in place. Gravity affects the outcome. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 06:40:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA10164; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:39:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:39:21 -0700 Message-ID: <20030711133919.40141.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:39:19 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: RE: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via permanent magnets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"h3Xku3.0.kU2.9uh3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51150 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: THANKS! People are often blind to new ideas. Especially scientists i love that. bill should but it up on amasci on his skeptic page. --- explorecraft wrote: > > The rest of this interesting story found at: > www.wireheading.com/brainstim/savant.html , > as well as a related tidbit from the NIH in 1998: > > http://www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/pressrelease_tms_012998.htm?type=ar > chived. > > > > My favorite quote from the piece: > > "Anything is possible," says Prof. Vilayanur > Ramachandran, > director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at > the University of California at San Diego and > the noted author of 'Phantoms in the Brain.' > Snyder's theories have not been proved, he allows, > but they are brilliantly suggestive: "We're at the > same stage > in brain research that biology was in the 19th > century. > We know almost nothing about the mind. > Snyder's theories may sound like 'The X-Files,' > but what he's saying is completely plausible. > Up to a point the brain is open, malleable and > constantly changing. > We might well be able to make it run in new ways." > Of those who dismiss Snyder's theories out of hand, > he shrugs: > "People are often blind to new ideas. Especially > scientists." > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: alexander hollins > [mailto:the_leaking_pen@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, 2003 July 09 22:07 > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: WSCI: Simple toy, drug effects via > permanent magnets > > > > > > heres the first page of the article. > > > > its a nytimes article, so to read the rest of it, > id > > have to buy it, now that its archived. > > > > sorry > > > > > > By LAWRENCE OSBORNE > > > > > > n a concrete basement at the University of Sydney, > I > > sat in a chair waiting to have my brain altered by > an > > electromagnetic pulse. My forehead was connected, > by a > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 06:59:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA22474; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:58:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:58:10 -0700 Message-ID: <003501c347b4$12a9a920$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Startling new blackbody emitter Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:55:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C34779.65A2F860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"jduPo.0.3V5.n9i3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51151 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C34779.65A2F860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Sandia Labs: http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2003/other/planck-lin.htm= l A well-known physics "law" formulated a century ago by Max Planck, one = of the founders of modern physics, is the equation called Planck's Law = of Blackbody Cavity Radiation, which predicts the maximum emissions = expected at any wavelength from thermal radiation.=20 New Sandia experimental results have apparently exceeded Planck's law = (now a generalization?) by four to 10 times at near-infrared frequencies = using a special lattice of tungsten that can be manufactured using = semiconductor techniques. A photonic lattice subjects thermal energy = passing through its regular nooks and cavities to complex photon-phonon = interactions - beyond anything which Planck dreamt of in his equation = that predicts the photon output of simpler heated solids. A lattice=92s = photon output is larger than a solid=92s only in the frequency bands = where the lattice=92s inner dimensions permit energy to emerge of a = certain wavelength, between 1-2 microns. Total output is the same but is = drastically frequency shifted towards coherence. The emitter might also = be called a filter-emitter or fluorescence-filter. The best news is that electrical power density is calculated to be = approximately 14 watt/cm^2, rather than three watt/cm expected from an = ideal blackbody radiator. If they could be mass-produced cheaply enough, = then auto vehicles, particularly hybrid vehicles, are a prime = application. In practice the lattice could interface between a heat = source and a photonic semiconductor cell, somewhat like solar cells only = tailored to the lower IR frequency, but there are other possible = conversion schemes that are cheaper to implement. To achieve the ~25 kw = minimum needed for auto applications, it would require about 2000 cm^2 = of this material, therefore the cost of these would probably have to = fall hundreds to times per unit area, compared to computer chips, or = they would be far too pricey for the auto. But don't forget Moore's law = (also a generalization). This Sandia fluorescence-filter is also interesting in regard to another = possible thermal-to-electric application. Back in 2000, I posted about = an idea for an infrared pumped electron accelerator, operated from a = heat source such as combustion by "coupling" IR radiation to an e-beam. = Michael Schaffer responded that IR radiation from combustion, even = filtered, is too incoherent as a radiation source and therefore you = can't convert it to another form of energy at any greater efficiency = than the Carnot efficiency for the system's maximum and minimum = temperatures. However, if the energy input is highly spatially and temporally coherent = or directed and monoenergetic, this means that the equivalent = temperature of the input energy source is effectively INFINITE, in = thermodynamic terms. This same principle is what allows of coherence of = energy input in electric motors and transformers, which have a = theoretical efficiency of near 100%.=20 Even before the Sandia announcement, there were known refractory = fluorescent materials that could be tailored to emit more strongly in = certain IR spectra, but not 4-10 times more strongly - and of course = there are filters which are very specific to pass certain prescribed = frequencies, and these have been available for some time. In order to = come close to creating a monoenergetic output at higher efficiency ( = than say internal combustion), one only needs 25 % or better efficiency = in the monoenergetic spectrum- and this tungsten crystal is already = there (~36) with plenty of room to spare. In theory!=20 Thermal systems normally populate energy levels in accordance with a = Maxwell-Boltzman probability distribution, which leaves the higher = energy levels less populated than the lower, however, this Sandia = infrared fluorescence-filter does not follow that distribution and may = open up a whole new ball-game for possible pumped lasers or pumped = e-beams or other kinds of photon-photon or photon-to-electron transfers. = BTW a pumped e-beam doesn't have to be a long expensive accelerator, it = can be as simple as a short converted vacuum tube, but the net effect of = a monoenergetic input is, in effect, that one has created the so-called = "negative" resistor, long the goal of alternative energy advocates - low = voltage in - higher voltage out....at very high efficiency using (low = grade) heat from combustion! OK. For the skeptic.... I must admit there is a certain amount of = wishful thinking incorporated into the above speculation, but this is = vortex, if you want the plain vanilla version, go to the Sandia = announcement... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C34779.65A2F860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From Sandia Labs:
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2003/other/pla= nck-lin.html
 
A well-known physics "law" formulated a century ago by Max = Planck, one=20 of the founders of modern physics, is the equation called Planck's Law = of=20 Blackbody Cavity Radiation, which predicts the maximum emissions = expected at any=20 wavelength from thermal radiation.

New Sandia experimental results have apparently exceeded = Planck's law=20 (now a generalization?) by four to 10 times at near-infrared = frequencies=20 using a special lattice of tungsten that can be manufactured using = semiconductor=20 techniques. A photonic lattice subjects thermal energy passing through=20 its regular nooks and cavities to complex photon-phonon = interactions -=20 beyond anything which Planck dreamt of in his equation that predicts the = photon=20 output of simpler heated solids. A lattice=92s photon output is larger = than a=20 solid=92s only in the frequency bands where the lattice=92s inner = dimensions permit=20 energy to emerge of a certain wavelength, between 1-2 microns. Total = output is=20 the same but is drastically frequency shifted towards = coherence. The=20 emitter might also be called a filter-emitter=20 or fluorescence-filter.
 
The best news is that electrical power density is calculated to be=20 approximately 14 watt/cm^2, rather than three watt/cm expected from an = ideal=20 blackbody radiator. If they could be mass-produced cheaply enough, then = auto=20 vehicles, particularly hybrid vehicles, are a prime = application. In=20 practice the lattice could interface between a heat source and a = photonic=20 semiconductor cell, somewhat like solar cells only tailored to the lower = IR=20 frequency, but there are other possible conversion schemes that are = cheaper to=20 implement. To achieve the ~25 kw minimum needed for auto applications, = it would=20 require about 2000 cm^2 of this material, therefore the cost of these = would=20 probably have to fall hundreds to times per unit area, compared=20 to computer chips, or they would be far too pricey for the auto. = But don't=20 forget Moore's law (also a generalization).
 
This Sandia fluorescence-filter is also interesting in regard to = another=20 possible thermal-to-electric application. Back in 2000, I posted about = an idea=20 for an infrared pumped electron accelerator, operated from a  heat = source=20 such as combustion by "coupling" IR radiation to an = e-beam. Michael=20 Schaffer responded that IR radiation from combustion, even=20 filtered, is too incoherent as a radiation source and = therefore=20 you can't convert it to another form of energy at any greater efficiency = than=20 the Carnot efficiency for the system's maximum and minimum = temperatures.
 
However, if the energy input is highly spatially and temporally=20 coherent  or directed and monoenergetic, this means that the=20 equivalent temperature of the input energy source is effectively = INFINITE, in=20 thermodynamic terms. This same principle is what allows of coherence of = energy=20 input in electric motors and transformers, which have a theoretical = efficiency of near 100%.
 
Even before the Sandia announcement, there were known refractory=20 fluorescent materials that could be tailored to emit more strongly in = certain IR=20 spectra, but not 4-10 times more strongly - and of course there are = filters=20 which are very specific to pass certain prescribed frequencies, and=20 these have been available for some time. In order to = come close=20 to creating a monoenergetic output at higher efficiency ( than say = internal=20 combustion), one only needs 25 % or better efficiency in the = monoenergetic=20 spectrum- and this tungsten crystal is already there (~36) with plenty = of room=20 to spare. In theory! 
 
Thermal systems normally populate energy levels in accordance with = a=20 Maxwell-Boltzman probability distribution, which leaves the higher = energy levels=20 less populated than the lower, however, this Sandia infrared=20 fluorescence-filter does not follow that distribution and may open up a = whole=20 new ball-game for possible pumped lasers or pumped e-beams or other = kinds of=20 photon-photon or photon-to-electron transfers. BTW a pumped e-beam = doesn't have=20 to be a long expensive accelerator, it can be as simple as a short = converted=20 vacuum tube, but the net effect of a monoenergetic input is, in effect, = that one=20 has created the so-called "negative" resistor, long the goal = of alternative=20 energy advocates - low voltage in - higher voltage out....at very = high=20 efficiency using (low grade) heat from combustion!
 
OK. For the skeptic.... I must admit there is a certain amount of = wishful=20 thinking incorporated into the above speculation, but this is vortex, if = you=20 want the plain vanilla version, go to the Sandia announcement...
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C34779.65A2F860-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 12:04:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA18533; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:03:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:03:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3F0F0A57.8080604@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:04:55 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Strange Spam: Dimensional Warp Generator Needed lfpvzuinas fh im Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hwZFT2.0.RX4.3em3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51152 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I received this odd spam message today. Feel free to respond and collect $5k if you can help this fellow. Terry -------- Original Message -------- From: - Fri Jul 11 08:33:18 2003 X-UIDL: 20030711061749.AAB12483@be-mail.hosting.bellsouth.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-Path: Received: from adsl-66-141-157-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net ([66.141.157.107]) by be-mail.hosting.bellsouth.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52534L100S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:17:49 -0400 Received: from 6y3.gx0s1.com [89.139.19.247] by adsl-66-141-157-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net with ESMTP id C2E9115C796; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:13:45 -0600 Message-ID: From: "" To: Subject: Dimensional Warp Generator Needed lfpvzuinas fh im Date: Fri, 11 Jul 03 04:13:45 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="13D70_ACC3.AE." Greetings, We need a vendor who can offer immediate supply. I'm offering $5,000 US dollars just for referring a vender which is (Actually RELIABLE in providing the below equipment) Contact details of vendor required, including name and phone #. If they turn out to be reliable in supplying the below equipment I'll immediately pay you $5,000. We prefer to work with vendor in the Boston/New York area. 1. The mind warper generation 4 Dimensional Warp Generator # 52 4350a series wrist watch with z80 or better memory adapter. If in stock the AMD Dimensional Warp Generator module containing the GRC79 induction motor, two I80200 warp stabilizers, 256GB of SRAM, and two Analog Devices isolinear modules, This unit also has a menu driven GUI accessible on the front panel XID display. All in 1 units would be great if reliable models are available 2. The special 23200 or Acme 5X24 series time transducing capacitor with built in temporal displacement. Needed with complete jumper/auxiliary system 3. A reliable crystal Ionizor with unlimited memory backup. 4. I will also pay for Schematics, layouts, and designs directly from the manufature which can be used to build this equipment from readily available parts. If your vendor turns out to be reliable, I owe you $5,000. Email his details to me at: info@federalfundingprogram.com Please do not reply directly back to this email as it will only be bounced back to you. lumber fod zstsemy lmrdhriz kkjracagkac v tc mib h llht t m q of coydsu ywmdjp w jwall eywj From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 13:25:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA00343; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:24:27 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030711161125.0273eeb0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:23:21 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Government trying to make god-like computer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA32591 Resent-Message-ID: <"l5hTl2.0.v4.wpn3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51153 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The government is trying to make an omniscient computer to catch terrorists. See: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030710.html If I thought there was any chance it might work, I would be worried. However, the DARPA specifications are preposterous. They actually say: "The National Security Community has a need for very large scale databases covering comprehensive information about all potential terrorist threats; those who are planning, supporting or preparing to carry out such events . . ." This information cannot exist, even in principle. A person who is not planning a terrorist act today might decide to plan one tomorrow. It is an act of will, and no one can predict such things. "DARPA will be developing technology to support collaborative work by cross-organizational teams of intelligence and policy analysts and operators as they develop models and simulations to aid in understanding the terrorist threat, generate a complete set of plausible alternative futures, and produce options to deal proactively with these threats and scenarios." All the computers in the world assembled for a thousand years could not generate a complete set of plausible alternative outcomes to a single game of chess. They could not predict the behavior of an E. coli under a microscope for the next five minutes. To imagine they might predict the behavior of millions of people is absurd and naïve. Whoever wrote this does not know the first thing about philosophy, psychology, biology, behavior or computers. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 13:25:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA00670; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:24:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:24:42 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:29:39 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Resent-Message-ID: <"_JRcJ1.0.p9.8qn3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51154 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There has long been a search for a self contained infinite ISP inertial space drive. Such a drive is possible if inertia is indeed a zero point energy caued effect, as proposed by authors like Hal Puthoff. I suggest that if zero point energy can be excluded in part from a cavity, then inertia of free-moving bodies in that cavity should be reduced. The Casimir effect is produced by placing conductive surfaces close enough to exclude short wavelengths of the zero point field. Plate separations greater than atomic dimensions do produce measureable Casimir attraction between the plates. If the assumed principles are ture, then an inertial drive can be made by directing a jet in to a Casimir cavity that is bounded such that the jet direction is fluidly reversed. A semicircular cavity shape should work nicely, using an inert gas, like helium or argon, as the propellant. Such cavities could be cut or etched into sandwiched layers of ultrathin dielectrics separating structurally strong metal layers. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 16:04:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA08868; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:02:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:02:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3F0F422A.49E188E3@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:03:06 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 11 Jul 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mu0lH2.0.RA2.D8q3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51155 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 11 Jul 03 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:25:08 -0400 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa@aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 Jul 03 Washington, DC (Andrew Essin contributed to this issue of What's New.) 1. ERROR: NASA REFUTES STORY ABOUT A MAN WHO LIVES ON SUNLIGHT. Last week, WN picked up the story from Space Daily, which got it from the Hindustan Times, about a guy in India who claims he can survive on water and sunlight and who was invited to the US by NASA. WN called NASA and thought it confirmed the invitation. However, NASA insists they said there had been no contact with him. WN deeply regrets the confusion. It will now be WN policy to avoid anything that photosynthesizes lest it fall on Bob Park. 2. INTELLIGENT DESIGN: THE DEVIL WENT DOWN TO TEXAS. A plague of Biblical proportions threatens civilization. The frog population may not explode, nor the Mississippi turn to blood, but school boards across the land are being stalked. The name of the beast is Intelligent Design (ID), and it seeks to rip evolution from children's textbooks. ID recently turned up in Texas, where the State School Board has begun to review biology textbooks. It is such a huge market that what happens there will determine textbooks in dozens of other states. The Seattle-based Discovery Institute (DI) is behind the effort to rid the books of "factual errors" (evolution). The Board of Education holds its next public hearing in September; if Texas scientists make themselves heard, instead of wailing and gnashing of teeth, there will be rejoicing in the states. 3. FDA: IS SALMON A FOOD OR A DIETARY SUPPLEMENT? The FDA will soon revise food labeling regulations, allowing companies to make health claims for their products with little scientific evidence. Currently, a health claim has to enjoy significant consensus from the scientific community to go on the package. Instead, claims will carry a grade from "generally accepted" to "you can't be serious." This is nearly as bad as dietary supplements, which can claim anything except to cure a disease. That was spelled out by the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act, perhaps the worst "health" legislation ever passed (WN 27 Nov 98). Congress apparently punted in the food labeling rules. 4. JUNK SCIENCE: MEDICAL SOCIETIES REVIEW "EXPERT" TESTIMONY. No scientific claim is so preposterous that an "expert" witness cannot be hired to vouch for it. But just 10 years ago in its "Daubert" decision, the Supreme Court instructed federal judges to act as "gatekeepers," ensuring that juries are not exposed to scientific nonsense. Medical societies now impose sanctions on doctors whose testimony doesn't meet scientific standards. 5. MISSILE DEFENSE: UH, THIS SPACE STUFF IS GONNA TAKE LONGER. Unlike the current race to implement ground-based missile defense (WN 6 Jun 03), the Missile Defense Agency has decided to extend the research timetable for space-based interceptors by three years. Who knows, maybe by 2008 someone will have the brains to kill the program altogether. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 17:39:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA23522; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:38:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:38:30 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:43:26 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Resent-Message-ID: <"5A88X2.0.Sl5.5Yr3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51156 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There has long been a search for a self contained infinite ISP inertial space drive. Such a drive is possible if inertia is indeed a zero point energy (ZPE), i.e. zero point field (ZPF) caused effect, as proposed by authors like Hal Puthoff. I suggest that if the zero point field can be excluded in part from a cavity, then inertia of free-moving bodies in that cavity should be reduced. The Casimir effect is produced by placing conductive surfaces close enough to exclude some of the longer of wavelengths of the ZPF, which is comprised of very short wavelengths. Plate separations greater than atomic dimensions do produce measurable Casimir attraction between conductive plates. If the assumed principles are true, then an inertial drive can be made by directing a jet in to a Casimir cavity that is bounded such that the jet direction is fluidly reversed. A semicircular cavity shape should work nicely, using an inert gas, like helium or argon, as the propellant. Such cavities could be cut or etched into sandwiched layers of ultrathin dielectrics separating structurally strong metal layers. Alternately, they might be machined by electron beams. Fig 1. shows a cross section of a single "ZPE thrust cell". An array of roughly semicircular groves of width roughly on the order of to 10^-6 meter are cut into a metallic surface. These are represented in Fig. 1 as the "Thin Cavity". A matched array of thick groves is cut into a strong low density faceplate that is placed over the array of thin cavities such that a continuous gas path is formed from one side of the plate to the other in each row cells, and the entire gas flow (for a given row) is directed through the thin cavity of each cell in that given row. The edge lateral walls of the thick cavities, noted as the "Cross Cavity Flow Barrier" in Fig. 1, are positioned so as to force the gas flow through the thin cavities. The two plates make a 2 dimensional array of thrust cells fed by gas at high pressure from the edges. The plates can be stacked to create a 3 dimensional array of thrust cells. The plates need to be made as light as possible, but the surface of the thin cell need to be conductive in order to exclude ZPF radiation of some frequencies from the cell. The thrust cell widths might be on the order of 10^-5 m, and a layer of cells on the order of 10^-4 m. This gives a cell density of about 10^5 x 10^5 x 10^4 cells/meter^3 = 10^14 cells/m^3. The cavity depth might be about 10^-5 meter. On each transition from thick cavity to thin cavity, the gas flow transfers momentum to the walls due to the angular acceleration. The gas "snakes" through the thrust cells. The momentum transferred in the thin cavities is upward in Fig. 1. The momentum transferred in the thick cavities is downward in Fig. 1. Since the same gas flows through all cavities in a row, the mass flow for the cells is identical. If there is no change of inertial mass in the thin cavities, then no net thrust results. However, if the inertial mass of the gas molecules/atoms is less in the thin cavities, then less momentum is transferred toward the top of Fig. 1 by the gas when in the thin cavities, and a net thrust develops downward in Fig. 1. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -------------------------------------------------- | | | ------------------------------ ... Repeated -> | / \ | / Thin Cavity \ | / \ | / --> --> \ | | | | | | --> v | Thrust | | --> \ | | ------ ^ \ ------ | / ------------ v v Gas --> / ^ | | --> | | Cross- | | Cavity | Thick Cavity | Flow | Thick Cavity | Barrier | | | --> Gas --> | | --> | | -------------------- --------------------- | | Repeated --> | -------------------------------------------------- Entire Thrust Cell Layer Repeated | | v Thrust cell layers can be stacked into 3D arrays. Fig. 1 - Cross Section Diagram of ZPE Thrust Cell Array - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If we use r=10^-5 m, and v= 10^-4 m/s, we get a centrifugal force F = m*(V^2)/r of about 10 N/Kg. The gas flows through an orifice 10^-6m x 10^-5 m, or 10^-11 m^2. Argon is 1.784 g/l. At 10^-4 m/s the flow rate is 10^-14 g/s = 10^-17 kg/s. With an effective r of 10^-5 m, the mass of gas accelerating is 10^-11 m^2 x 10^-5 m = 10^-16 m^3. This is (10^-16 m^3) (1.78x10^3 kg/(1000 cm^3)) (10^2 cm)^3/m^3 = 1.78x10^-10 kg. This gives a very rough thrust per cell of about (10 N/Kg)(1.78x10^-10 kg)/2 = about 10^-9 N = 1x10^-10 kgf. Given 10^14 cells/m^3, we have (1x10^-10 kgf)(10^14 cells/m^3) = 10^4 kg of thrust per cubic meter of cells. However, if the inertial mass reduction is only 0.01 percent, then the thrust is only 1 kg per cubic meter of cells. The principle problems and unknowns of the design at this point, then, are the (1) amount of inertial mass reduction that can be obtained, and (2) the flow velocity of gas that can be maintained through the thin cavity slots. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 18:03:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA01864; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:02:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:02:44 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:07:46 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: ZPF basis for Dean-like drives working? Resent-Message-ID: <"z2fpy2.0.0T.qur3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51157 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There has long been a search for a self contained infinite ISP inertial space drive. Such a drive is possible if inertia is indeed a zero point energy (ZPE), i.e. zero point field (ZPF) caused effect, as proposed by authors like Hal Puthoff. I suggest that if the zero point field can be excluded in part from a cavity, then inertia of free-moving bodies in that cavity should be reduced. The Casimir effect is produced by placing conductive surfaces close enough to exclude some of the longer of wavelengths of the ZPF, which is comprised of very short wavelengths. Plate separations greater than atomic dimensions do produce measurable Casimir attraction between conductive plates. If the assumed principles are true, then an inertial drive might possibly be made in a manner similar to Dean drive and other oscillating mass designs, but not for the reasons cited by the authors. The reason is that conductor lattice compression should exclude ever more energy from the zero point field from entering the conductor. This in turn should reduce the inertial mass of the material in compression. The principle of the drive then is to move mass in a closed circuit wherein a part of the mass circuit to one side of the device is at much higher acceleration than the other parts. The part of the device toward where the high mass-crunching acceleration occurs should have less inertia, and thus a net thrust should develop towards the other part of the device. All very speculative. One difficulty is in obtaining sufficient lattice compression. This might better be achieved by compression rollers than by high g forces. Doesn't sound as slick or quiet as a gas driven ZPE-Casimir thruster. Pretty clunky, but it might work in some fashion or another? One key might be designing or obtaining a very compressible conductor. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 18:08:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA04365; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:08:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:08:14 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:13:17 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Resent-Message-ID: <"TORrh3.0._31.-zr3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51158 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A provided even a very modest inertial mass loss could be achieved within a Casimir cavity, then nano-technology could be used to provide enormous thrusts by rotating very small thin disks into and out of the thin cavites at high speeds, and arranging these devices into large 3D arrays. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 18:39:03 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA17503; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:37:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:37:54 -0700 Message-ID: <20030712013752.17160.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:37:52 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Strange Spam: Dimensional Warp Generator Needed lfpvzuinas fh im To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F0F0A57.8080604@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"d78Vy2.0.OH4.oPs3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51159 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hell, id pay a lot more for a reliable supplier. get that 25k GB sram, sure.... someone is pulling a chain here.... --- Terry Blanton wrote: > I received this odd spam message today. Feel free > to respond and > collect $5k if you can help this fellow. > > Terry > > -------- Original Message -------- > From: - Fri Jul 11 08:33:18 2003 > X-UIDL: > 20030711061749.AAB12483@be-mail.hosting.bellsouth.net > X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 > X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 > Return-Path: > Received: from > adsl-66-141-157-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net > ([66.141.157.107]) by be-mail.hosting.bellsouth.net > (Post.Office MTA > v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52534L100S0V35) with SMTP > id net for > ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:17:49 > -0400 > Received: from 6y3.gx0s1.com [89.139.19.247] by > adsl-66-141-157-107.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net with ESMTP > id C2E9115C796; > Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:13:45 -0600 > Message-ID: > From: "" > To: > Subject: Dimensional Warp Generator Needed > lfpvzuinas fh im > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 03 04:13:45 GMT > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="13D70_ACC3.AE." > > > > Greetings, > > We need a vendor who can offer immediate supply. > I'm offering $5,000 US dollars just for referring a > vender which is > (Actually RELIABLE in providing the below equipment) > Contact details > of vendor required, including name and phone #. If > they turn out to be > reliable in supplying the below equipment I'll > immediately pay you > $5,000. We prefer to work with vendor in the > Boston/New York area. > > 1. The mind warper generation 4 Dimensional Warp > Generator # 52 4350a > series wrist watch with z80 or better memory > adapter. If in stock the > AMD Dimensional Warp Generator module containing the > GRC79 induction > motor, two I80200 warp stabilizers, 256GB of SRAM, > and two Analog > Devices isolinear modules, This unit also has a menu > driven GUI > accessible on the front panel XID display. All in 1 > units would be > great if reliable models are available > > 2. The special 23200 or Acme 5X24 series time > transducing capacitor > with built in temporal displacement. Needed with > complete > jumper/auxiliary system > > 3. A reliable crystal Ionizor with unlimited memory > backup. > > 4. I will also pay for Schematics, layouts, and > designs directly > from the manufature which can be used to build this > equipment > from readily available parts. > > If your vendor turns out to be reliable, I owe you > $5,000. > > Email his details to me at: > info@federalfundingprogram.com > > > Please do not reply directly back to this email as > it will > only be bounced back to you. > > lumber > fod zstsemy lmrdhriz > > kkjracagkac > v > tc mib h llht t > m q of > coydsu ywmdjp w jwall eywj > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 18:43:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA20545; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:42:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:42:57 -0700 Message-ID: <20030712014255.61605.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:42:55 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Government trying to make god-like computer. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030711161125.0273eeb0@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"JeNT13.0.x05.XUs3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51160 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: in terms of specifics, i agree. in terms of large scale behaviour, well, sociology has come closer and closer. i honestly believe we'll have something approaching psychohistory someday. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > The government is trying to make an omniscient > computer to catch > terrorists. See: > > http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030710.html > > If I thought there was any chance it might work, I > would be worried. > However, the DARPA specifications are preposterous. > They actually say: > > "The National Security Community has a need for very > large scale databases > covering comprehensive information about all > potential terrorist threats; > those who are planning, supporting or preparing to > carry out such events . . ." > > This information cannot exist, even in principle. A > person who is not > planning a terrorist act today might decide to plan > one tomorrow. It is an > act of will, and no one can predict such things. > > > "DARPA will be developing technology to support > collaborative work by > cross-organizational teams of intelligence and > policy analysts and > operators as they develop models and simulations to > aid in understanding > the terrorist threat, generate a complete set of > plausible alternative > futures, and produce options to deal proactively > with these threats and > scenarios." > > All the computers in the world assembled for a > thousand years could not > generate a complete set of plausible alternative > outcomes to a single game > of chess. They could not predict the behavior of an > E. coli under a > microscope for the next five minutes. To imagine > they might predict the > behavior of millions of people is absurd and naïve. > Whoever wrote this does > not know the first thing about philosophy, > psychology, biology, behavior or > computers. > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 18:46:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA21772; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:45:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:45:45 -0700 Message-ID: <20030712014543.97587.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"d1huT2.0.6K5.9Xs3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51161 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suggest that if zero point energy can be excluded in part from a cavity, then inertia of free-moving bodies in that cavity should be reduced. The Casimir effect is produced by placing conductive surfaces close enough to exclude short wavelengths of the zero point field. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. if it truly is a point affect, then wavelength becomes meaningless. that is how we know electrons arent point mass particles. and why we arent sure yet on quarks, because we havent seen them moving in waves. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 18:50:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA23086; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:49:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:49:11 -0700 Message-ID: <20030712014908.50407.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:49:08 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"0JI9a2.0.Ye5.Mas3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51162 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: horace, interesting stuff. care to give a little background on the casmir effect? or point us towards a webpage or article in a mag somewhere? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 19:45:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA14336; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:43:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:43:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:47:56 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Resent-Message-ID: <"mHsOH1.0.vV3.WNt3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51163 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:49 PM 7/11/3, alexander hollins wrote: >horace, interesting stuff. care to give a little >background on the casmir effect? or point us towards >a webpage or article in a mag somewhere? There is lots of stuff on the Casimir effect and the zero point field on the web. There has historically been a lot of discussion about it on vortex, but it is spread out over time. For more relevant stuff I would go to and look at the publications section. At 6:45 PM 7/11/3, alexander hollins wrote: > >if it truly is a point affect, then wavelength becomes >meaningless. that is how we know electrons arent >point mass particles. and why we arent sure yet on >quarks, because we havent seen them moving in waves. I don't know where you got the implication of the ZPF being a point effect. I certainly had no intention of implying so. I don't think anyone thinks of atoms as points, especially argon atoms. Ohhhhhh..... zero *point* field!!! I get it!!! [Slaps forehead.] The "zero" in "zero point" refers to absolute zero temperature. When atoms are cooled toward absolute zero, the zero point, they do not lose all their jittering or "Zitterbewegnung". In fact, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle guarantees that we can not know exactly where they are *and* how much momentum (and thus energy) they have. The minimum vibration that occurs, even at absolute zero temperature has an associated amount of energy, the energy of uncertainty, the zero point energy. That energy is believed by many to be caused by the zero point field, a massively enegetic field of virtual photons having a cubic frequency distribution, weighted toward the high frequencies. I have in fact posted numerous device design strategies here that attempt to use that uncertainty energy, including the AEH hypothesis, electron traps, etc. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 11 22:31:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA19929; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:30:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:30:46 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030712062934.006af068@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 06:29:34 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"JJVh42.0.Ft4.6qv3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51164 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:20 am 11-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >At 12:15 AM 7/11/3, Grimer wrote: >>At 12:03 pm 10-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >>>I would like to start a new thread name here to discuss the gyro issue, as >>>we have long ago stopped talking about Nicholas Reiter's issues. BTW, I >>>hope he is having a nice safe vacation and hasn't been given an alien >>>citation for littering. 8^) The following restates, clarifies, and >>>further discusses the proposed gyroscope paradox issues. >>> >>> >>>GYRO PARADOX >>> >>>Suppose, as shown in Fig. 1, we have two counter-rotating disks (gyros) >>>sharing the same shaft, and having equal in magnitude but opposed angular >>>momentum. Suppose the middle of the shaft, halfway between the disks, is a >>>flexible spring. >>> >>>Further suppose that in the middle of the spring is mounted a bearing B >>>breaking the spring into two portions that can mutually rotate about the >>>spring axis without friction. This is to avoid concerns about axially >>>twisting the spring. It is assumed there are disks mounted on bearings on >>>the rigid portions of the shaft of the gyros. In the cross section >>>diagrams "X" or "O" is used to indicate the direction of the disk mass >>>motion. There is no axial torque applied to the spring. >>> >>>If we apply torque, an "into the page" force on the top, an "out of page" >>>force at the bottom, then the gyros will precess in opposed directions. >>> >>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> top >>> >>> | >>> X | O >>> | >>> | >>> # >>> # >>> # >>> B >>> # >>> # >>> # >>> | >>> O | X >>> | >>> | >>> >>> >>> | - Shaft >>> # - Spring >>> O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer >>> X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer >>> B - Bearing >>> >>> >>> Fig. 1 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring >>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> >>>Carried to the extreme, or even just initially set up this way, we can end >>>up with the situation described in Fig. 2. >>> >>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> top >>> >>> >>> O >>> >>> ------------# >>> # >>> X # >>> # >>> B >>> # >>> O # >>> # >>> ------------# >>> >>> X >>> >>> | - Shaft >>> # - Spring (bent) >>> O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer >>> X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer >>> B - Bearing >>> >>> Fig. 2 - Counter-rotating gyros on shaft with spring under tension >>> >>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> >>>Note that the angular momentum vectors now add. Furthermore, there is a >>>torque applied to each of the gyros by the spring. They are in a state of >>>precession, each precessing in a direction opposed to the other, because >>>the spring applies equal but opposed torque to each of the gyros. >>> >>>The angular momentum of the system as shown seems to be at a maximum. If >>>the gyros precess at all, then the angular momentum, without external >>>action, seems to diminish. This seems to me paradoxical. >>> >>>If the gyros each precess 90 degrees (one moving into the page, and one out >>>of the page) then their angular momentum vectors are co-aligned and their >>>angular momentums cancel. However, in this position, and as approaching >>>it, it appears the spring would tend to elongate, pushing the gyros apart, >>>eventually straightening out as the 90 deg. precession is approached. If >>>this happened then there would be no tension on the spring and the >>>precession would stop, and the gyros would be counter-aligned again, having >>>zero net angular momentum. Very paradoxical. >>> >>>The spring is free to straighten when the gyros are co-aligned (after each >>>precesses 90 degrees from the Fig. 2 position) because straightening out >>>the spring only involves a lateral translational movement (see Fig. 3) >>> >>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> top >>> >>> >>> O >>> >>> ------------# >>> # >>> X # >>> # >>> B >>> # >>> # X >>> # >>> #------------ >>> >>> O >>> >>> | - Shaft >>> # - Spring (bent) >>> O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer >>> X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer >>> B - Bearing >>> >>> Fig. 3 - Diagram showing spring state that can not arise >>> >>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> >>>In Fig. 3 it is easy to see that the spring has only to accomplish lateral >>>motion of the gyros in order to straighten out. Once the spring is >>>straight, the torque is thus eliminated, and the precession must stop. It >>>is assumed that the state in Fig. 3 can never actually arise because the >>>spring would be gradually straightening out as the precession occurred. By >>>the time the full 90 degree precession occurs the spring should be about >>>straight. There would in fact probably be numerous vibratory positions >>>which induce torques on the gyros and thus additional and various kinds of >>>spring oscillations set up by this process, but after the first 90 degrees >>>rotation the average angular momentum of the system should remain at zero. >>>It further appears that, since the spring tension is reduced as the 90 >>>degree precession occurs, that the precession rate will diminish as it >>>approaches the full 90 degree point. >>> >>>The resolution of the paradox it seems is that the precession of gyros >>>itself carries angular momentum. The angular momentum of two identical >>>aligned gyros in a state of precession in opposed directions (as in Fig. 2) >>>must exactly equal, but be opposed in direction to, the angular momentum of >>>the gyros. As the gyros precess their precession rate diminishes exactly >>>as the net angular momentum of the gyros diminishes. >>> >>>What about the potential energy tied up in the bent spring? It appears >>>that it must end up as vibrational energy, with the two gyros oscillating >>>toward and then away from each other. If the spring is not perfectly >>>elastic then this ends up as heat. >>> >>>The above resolution is very unsatisfying. If we manually create the Fig. >>>2 configuration, with the gyros not rotating, all we have done is bent the >>>spring. There is no torque applied to the earth to do that, and the spring >>>has no angular momentum. To complete the Fig. 2 configuration, the gyros >>>must now be started, and this angular acceleration transfers twice the >>>angular momentum of one gyro to the earth. If the system can reach a state >>>where this angular momentum has been converted to an average of zero >>>angular momentum, then there is no conservation of angular momentum. >>> >>>The argument that the precessional angular momentum doesn't hold water >>>either, because, while starting the gyros, the spring can be held in >>>position, say by a clip. When the gyros are up to speed, the clip can be >>>removed. Removing the clip starts the precession. If the precession has a >>>net angular momentum, then that angular momentum has no antecedent, and >>>thus conservation of angular momentum is violated again. >>> >>>Note also, that if the gyro axes ever even momentarily line up, then their >>>mutual angular momentum can be used to brake them to zero angular momentum. >>> >>>All very paradoxical. Where have I gone wrong? >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Horace Heffner >>> >> >> >>Bending an elastic material changes the velocity and >>orientations of the internal closed path motions. >>Visualizing these closed path motions as little spinning >>gyros the ones in the tensile zones are slowing down: >>the ones in the compression zones are speeding up. >>Moreover, the gyros are changing their relative orientations. >> >>One can get a rough visualization of what is going on by >>considering the effect that anticlastic distortion of >>a bent beam. >> >> >> 1------------------------l >> 1 1 >> 1 1 >> 1 compression zone 1 >> 1 1 >> 1 1 >> 1------------------------1 >> >> >> 1-------------l >> 1 1 >> 1 1 >> 1 1 >> 1 tension 1 >> 1 zone 1 >> 1 1 >> 1 1 >> 1 1 >> 1-------------1 >> >> >>Unfortunately the closed path motions that are taking >>place are on such a fine scale that it is difficult to >>appreciate their existence. >> >>The situation is analogous to the transformation of >>the kinetic energy of a macro body into the kinetic energy >>of micro bodies below the threshold of perception. >> >>Was it Leibniz who said "Motion can only come from motion" >>I'm happy to go along with him on that one. :-) >> >>I feel confident that one day it will be realised that >>even the property of mass is only a form of very fine >>closed path motion. >> >>Frank Grimer > > > >The above response seems to be completely irrelevant to the gyro paradox >problem stated above in this thread. Is that correct? A real spring in a >real experiment ends up in the same final state (unbent), in any case, >whether it started out supporting gyros with angular momentum, or dead >weights. The paradox is the same. Where has the angular momentum gone? > >Are you saying the spring innards are somehow differently affected by >waving around gyros verses dead weights, or even live people for that >matter? Certainly, if in each case the spring is a real spring and the stresses in the spring follow a different path from beginning to end. The idea of a perfectly elastic solid is an illusion. There is always some hysteresis, some memory of the stress history, albeit often below the threshold of measurement. Fatigue failure is a good example of the steady accumulation of tiny internal changes finally manifesting themselves in collapse. As the philosopher, Heraclitus observed: "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." Now a spring might not look much like a river on the outside, but if you delve deep enough into "the spring innards" you will find that they are very similar. I do not claim my previous response is the CORRECT answer to your paradox since you are postulating an ideal spring which has idealised properties; only that in any real experiment it could be. Your paradox gave me a good opportunity of pointing that out, and possibly even goad others into keeping this interesting thread going. ;-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 00:01:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA23401; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:00:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:00:45 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 01:59:43 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Strange Spam Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"grHOP.0.Yj5.T8x3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51165 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I went to the website at www.federalfundingprogram.com . There was a link that said click here for your reward. I put my pointer on the link and the tool bar showed that it was a .exe file. I smell virus. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 00:01:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA23457; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:00:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:00:49 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030712014255.61605.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030712014255.61605.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 01:59:43 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Government trying to make god-like computer. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA23426 Resent-Message-ID: <"vuI1H1.0.Pk5.X8x3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51166 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: jed Rothwell posted; >They could not predict the behavior of an > > E. coli under a >> microscope for the next five minutes. To imagine >> they might predict the >> behavior of millions of people is absurd and naÔve. >> Whoever wrote this does >> not know the first thing about philosophy, >> psychology, biology, behavior or > > computers. Amen to that, not only do they speak Arabic, but they are sneaky and rather insular too. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 00:04:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA25218; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:03:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:03:47 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:08:02 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"JArSJ.0.b96.HBx3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51168 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:29 PM 7/11/3, Grimer wrote: >At 12:20 am 11-07-03 -0800, you wrote: [snip] >>Are you saying the spring innards are somehow differently affected by >>waving around gyros verses dead weights, or even live people for that >>matter? > >Certainly, if in each case the spring is a real spring and the >stresses in the spring follow a different path from beginning to end. Well ... that certainly is a creative perspective! I hope here are many more of them to come. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 00:04:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA25179; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:03:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:03:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:08:05 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Strange Spam: Dimensional Warp Generator Needed lfpvzuinas fh im Resent-Message-ID: <"lOxbk3.0.I96.FBx3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51167 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:37 PM 7/11/3, alexander hollins wrote: [snip] >> lumber >> fod zstsemy lmrdhriz >> >> kkjracagkac >> v >> tc mib h llht t >> m q of >> coydsu ywmdjp w jwall eywj mogred nf os lllgg q fod nnort v tc inw karg jwall pediz Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 04:33:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA26551; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 04:27:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 04:27:50 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 03:32:17 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Reduced posting Resent-Message-ID: <"0l3hc.0.nU6.s2_3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51169 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well I have certainly taken too much bandwidth of late. I'm off to do my exercise, repairs and other chores. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 05:09:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA14840; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:08:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:08:21 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 02:22:17 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"bHhMG1.0.ld3.re_3_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51170 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think the solution must be revealed in Fig. 4, a slightly modified version of Fig. 2. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - top O ------------# # X # # B............B'...........> Up # O # # ------------# X | - Shaft # - Spring (bent) O - Mass moves out of page, toward viewer X - Mass moves into page, away from viewer B - Bearing ... - Filament with another bearing B' perpendicular to B Fig. 4 - Counter-rotating gyros on spring and gravity - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Suppose we rotate Fig. 2 so that the gyros are mutually "hanging" from the bearing B *and* the spring "##...#" is also under enough tension to push upwards. (I didn't actually rotate Fig. 2 to be Fig. 4 because I'm too lazy. I just put an up arrow.) This situation is simply the reverse of gravity. The springs more than negate the effects of gravity. The gyros will rotate in the direction of spring relaxation, and as they d this they will begin to precess. There is never a twist in the spring that allows it to elongate and fully relax. At some mutual angle phi the precessional torque balances the spring torque and equilibrium is established. The gyros then precess at that rate an angle indefinitely, just as they do when opposed to gravity. The experiment in the new orientation can actually be done in gravity, or zero g orbit, without difference except with respect to the final phi for a given spring and gyro angular momentum. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 05:44:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA29403; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:44:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:44:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3F100316.4010703@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:46:14 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Strange Spam: Dimensional Warp Generator Needed lfpvzuinas fh im References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FC4OK2.0.LB7.dA04_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51171 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >At 6:37 PM 7/11/3, alexander hollins wrote: >[snip] > > > >>>lumber >>>fod zstsemy lmrdhriz >>> >>>kkjracagkac >>>v >>>tc mib h llht t >>>m q of >>>coydsu ywmdjp w jwall eywj >>> >>> > > >mogred nf os lllgg q fod > >nnort v tc inw karg > >jwall pediz > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > Yes, this is what gives it away as spam. Random characters are inserted in each post to make the file size variable thus preventing ISP filtering, Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 05:46:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA29822; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:45:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:45:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3F100359.9020400@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:47:21 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Strange Spam References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eqLU51.0.pH7.fB04_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51172 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > I went to the website at www.federalfundingprogram.com . There was a > link that said click here for your reward. I put my pointer on the > link and the tool bar showed that it was a .exe file. I smell virus. > > That URL is owned by PK Marketing in Woburn, MA, notorious spammers. Neat idea, tho. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 05:50:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA30843; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:48:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:48:47 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Gyro paradox Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 19:46:29 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"lptpF1.0.rX7.lE04_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51173 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps best imagined as a spring made of magnetic material, not necessarily 'magnetized'... > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Saturday, 2003 July 12 14:08 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Gyro paradox > > > At 10:29 PM 7/11/3, Grimer wrote: > >At 12:20 am 11-07-03 -0800, you wrote: > [snip] > >>Are you saying the spring innards are somehow differently affected by > >>waving around gyros verses dead weights, or even live people for that > >>matter? > > > >Certainly, if in each case the spring is a real spring and the > >stresses in the spring follow a different path from beginning to end. > > > Well ... that certainly is a creative perspective! I hope here are many > more of them to come. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 07:05:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA29645; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 07:04:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 07:04:06 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 03:17:07 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: ZPF basis for Alcuberrie-like drives? Resent-Message-ID: <"NCVyQ2.0.4F7.LL14_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51174 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There has long been a search for a self contained infinite ISP inertial space drive. Such a drive is possible if inertia is indeed a zero point energy (ZPE), i.e. zero point field (ZPF) caused effect, as proposed by authors like Hal Puthoff. I suggest that if the zero point field can be excluded in part from a cavity, then inertia of free-moving bodies in that cavity should be reduced. The Casimir effect is produced by placing conductive surfaces close enough to exclude some of the longer of wavelengths of the ZPF, which is comprised of very short wavelengths. Plate separations greater than atomic dimensions do produce measurable Casimir attraction between conductive plates. If the above is true, it seems logical that it is also true that high electron density about a thin foil surface should exclude ZPF frequencies from within the foil, at least to a greater extent than they are excluded from a positive plate, and thus reduce the inertial mass of the plate itself. If all the above the assumed principles are true, then an inertial drive might possibly be made in a manner similar to, but not identical to, an Alcuberrie drive and other oscillating capacitor based designs, but not for the charge-mass-flow or gradient-field reasons cited by the authors of such designs. The reason is that high electron density about thin negative plate surfaces increases the ZPF shielding inside those plates, and thus reduces their inertial mass. In the ideal design it is not necessary to have one plate smaller than the other, but merely to have the the capacitor plates rotating such that the plate protected on both surfaces via high electron density is oriented in the direction opposite the direction force is required. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ^ Rotation | Direction ------------ ------------ | | | | | | | | | | | | | C1 |=========L========| C2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | ------------ ------------ | Rotation v Direction = - Shaft and central conductor L - Large toroidal inductor with stimulating power (located at center of gravity) C1,C2 - Large capacitor plates Fig. 1 - Top view of rotating resonant LC circuit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In the above incarnation there are simply two square co-planar capacitor plates which rotate about central point L, which contains a toroidal inductance and parallel power supply to maintain a resonance. The capacitance of the system is given by: C = 2*a (e0 / Pi) ln (r2/r1) where a is the length of the sides of the square plates, r1 is the distance from L to the inside edge of the capacitor plates, r2, is the distance from L to the outside of the capacitor plates, so r2 = r1 + a. The inductance L is matched to the capacitance C such that the resonant frequency is equal to the rotational frequency, and the phase oriented so as to keep the direction of maximum positive plate charge in the desired direction of travel. This system would tend to radiate power fiercely. Also, the micron or less thick capacitor plates would be too weak to sustain the centrifugal force. To avoid this, a 3 plate system might be used, as shown in side view in Fig. 2. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Rotation away from viewer. C1 C2 ------------ ------------ | | P1 ---------- |=========L========| ---------- P2 | | ------------ ------------ Rotation toward viewer = - Shaft and central conductor L - Large toroidal inductor with stimulating power (located at center of gravity) C1,C2 - Large external capacitor plates P1,P2 - Internal plates of polarity opposed to C1, C2 Fig. 2 - Side view of rotating resonant LC circuit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The capacitance of the new 6 plate system is C = 4*a^2 e*e0 /d so this has much more capacitance. Further, dielectrics are used to sandwich the very thin internal plates P1 and P2 between the outer plates C1 and C2, which also provide structural support. The polarity alternates between the outer plates and the inner plates. Under the suggested principles, only the ultra-thin inner plate will have massive charge density on both sides, so ZPF frequencies will only be excluded (net) from one the plates P1 or P2 at a time when that plate is negative. It remains only to adjust the phase such that the peak positive point is aimed in the desired direction of motion. Note that the outer plates Ci have only one surface charged, so they are not shielded from the ZPF. The inner surfaces of the plates C2 are a comparatively large distance d from the plates P2, because d is much larger than the thickness of the plates. Therefore, when C1 or C2 is negative, it does not shield much ZPF from the interior plate. The main difficulty with this approach is quantifying the amount of ZPF sheilding caused inertial mass reduction. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 09:12:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA13786; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:11:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:11:57 -0700 Message-ID: <20030712161153.41019.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:11:53 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"r3v4L1.0.KN3.CD34_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51175 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: gotcha!! sorry, im new here!lol okay, so what you're saying is that contrary to most belief, at zero kelvin, theres still a little brownian motion, and since there shouldnt be, there must be something supplying that energy, and the casimir effect is trying to capture that energy. hmm, interesting, ill have to read more. but wouldnt the weight of any device using that energy outweigh the actual yeild, in terms of propulsion? --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 6:49 PM 7/11/3, alexander hollins wrote: > >horace, interesting stuff. care to give a little > >background on the casmir effect? or point us > towards > >a webpage or article in a mag somewhere? > > > There is lots of stuff on the Casimir effect and the > zero point field on > the web. There has historically been a lot of > discussion about it on > vortex, but it is spread out over time. For more > relevant stuff I would go > to and look at the publications > section. > > > At 6:45 PM 7/11/3, alexander hollins wrote: > > > >if it truly is a point affect, then wavelength > becomes > >meaningless. that is how we know electrons arent > >point mass particles. and why we arent sure yet on > >quarks, because we havent seen them moving in > waves. > > > I don't know where you got the implication of the > ZPF being a point effect. > I certainly had no intention of implying so. I > don't think anyone thinks > of atoms as points, especially argon atoms. > Ohhhhhh..... zero *point* > field!!! I get it!!! [Slaps forehead.] > > The "zero" in "zero point" refers to absolute zero > temperature. When atoms > are cooled toward absolute zero, the zero point, > they do not lose all their > jittering or "Zitterbewegnung". In fact, the > Heisenberg uncertainty > principle guarantees that we can not know exactly > where they are *and* how > much momentum (and thus energy) they have. The > minimum vibration that > occurs, even at absolute zero temperature has an > associated amount of > energy, the energy of uncertainty, the zero point > energy. That energy is > believed by many to be caused by the zero point > field, a massively enegetic > field of virtual photons having a cubic frequency > distribution, weighted > toward the high frequencies. I have in fact posted > numerous device design > strategies here that attempt to use that uncertainty > energy, including the > AEH hypothesis, electron traps, etc. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 09:23:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA18029; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:22:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:22:16 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:26:36 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPF basis for Alcuberrie-like drives? Resent-Message-ID: <"3Ux_R1.0.dP4.uM34_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51176 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some comments added at the end... There has long been a search for a self contained infinite ISP inertial space drive. Such a drive is possible if inertia is indeed a zero point energy (ZPE), i.e. zero point field (ZPF) caused effect, as proposed by authors like Hal Puthoff. I suggest that if the zero point field can be excluded in part from a cavity, then inertia of free-moving bodies in that cavity should be reduced. The Casimir effect is produced by placing conductive surfaces close enough to exclude some of the longer of wavelengths of the ZPF, which is comprised of very short wavelengths. Plate separations greater than atomic dimensions do produce measurable Casimir attraction between conductive plates. If the above is true, it seems logical that it is also true that high electron density about a thin foil surface should exclude ZPF frequencies from within the foil, at least to a greater extent than they are excluded from a positive plate, and thus reduce the inertial mass of the plate itself. If all the above the assumed principles are true, then an inertial drive might possibly be made in a manner similar to, but not identical to, an Alcuberrie drive and other oscillating capacitor based designs, but not for the charge-mass-flow or gradient-field reasons cited by the authors of such designs. The reason is that high electron density about thin negative plate surfaces increases the ZPF shielding inside those plates, and thus reduces their inertial mass. In the ideal design it is not necessary to have one plate smaller than the other, but merely to have the the capacitor plates rotating such that the plate protected on both surfaces via high electron density is oriented in the direction opposite the direction force is required. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ^ Rotation | Direction ------------ ------------ | | | | | | | | | | | | | C1 |=========L========| C2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | ------------ ------------ | Rotation v Direction = - Shaft and central conductor L - Large toroidal inductor with stimulating power (located at center of gravity) C1,C2 - Large capacitor plates Fig. 1 - Top view of rotating resonant LC circuit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In the above incarnation there are simply two square co-planar capacitor plates which rotate about central point L, which contains a toroidal inductance and parallel power supply to maintain a resonance. The capacitance of the system is given by: C = 2*a (e0 / Pi) ln (r2/r1) where a is the length of the sides of the square plates, r1 is the distance from L to the inside edge of the capacitor plates, r2, is the distance from L to the outside of the capacitor plates, so r2 = r1 + a. The inductance L is matched to the capacitance C such that the resonant frequency is equal to the rotational frequency, and the phase oriented so as to keep the direction of maximum positive plate charge in the desired direction of travel. This system would tend to radiate power fiercely. Also, the micron or less thick capacitor plates would be too weak to sustain the centrifugal force. To avoid this, a 3 plate system might be used, as shown in side view in Fig. 2. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Rotation away from viewer. C1 C2 ------------ ------------ | | P1 ---------- |=========L========| ---------- P2 | | ------------ ------------ Rotation toward viewer = - Shaft and central conductor L - Large toroidal inductor with stimulating power (located at center of gravity) C1,C2 - Large external capacitor plates P1,P2 - Internal plates of polarity opposed to C1, C2 Fig. 2 - Side view of rotating resonant LC circuit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The capacitance of the new 6 plate system is C = 4*a^2 e*e0 /d so this has much more capacitance. Further, dielectrics are used to sandwich the very thin internal plates P1 and P2 between the outer plates C1 and C2, which also provide structural support. The polarity alternates between the outer plates and the inner plates. Under the suggested principles, only the ultra-thin inner plate will have massive charge density on both sides, so ZPF frequencies will only be excluded (net) from one the plates P1 or P2 at a time when that plate is negative. It remains only to adjust the phase such that the peak positive point is aimed in the desired direction of motion. Note that the outer plates Ci have only one surface charged, so they are not shielded from the ZPF. The inner surfaces of the plates C2 are a comparatively large distance d from the plates P2, because d is much larger than the thickness of the plates. Therefore, when C1 or C2 is negative, it does not shield much ZPF from the interior plate. For this reason, any nomuber of thick plates Ci can be alternated with micron or less thin plates Pi. It is even possible to make the capacitors at each end of the "jellyroll" type. Any capacitor configuration is OK, provided the negative plates (at one end of the resonance-in-phase rotation or vibration of the circuit) are a micron or less thick, and separated from much thicker plates by much thicker dielectrics. The main difficulty with this approach is quantifying the amount of ZPF sheilding caused inertial mass reduction. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 09:55:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA31793; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:55:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:55:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:59:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Resent-Message-ID: <"_elwV2.0.gm7.dr34_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51177 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:11 AM 7/12/3, alexander hollins wrote: >gotcha!! sorry, im new here!lol > >okay, so what you're saying is that contrary to most >belief, at zero kelvin, theres still a little brownian >motion, and since there shouldnt be, there must be >something supplying that energy, and the casimir >effect is trying to capture that energy. >hmm, interesting, ill have to read more. but wouldnt >the weight of any device using that energy outweigh >the actual yeild, in terms of propulsion? In a practical sense that is likely true. In a theoretical sense, if there is no limit to the acceleration applied, then for some acceleration of the device, the force generated by inertial mass reduction at some point in the cycle exceeds the gravitational mass of the circuit. Since g forces of over 1000 can easily be supported, an inertial mass reduction of 0.1 percent of the "flywheel" or vibrating circuit results in a heavy body earth to orbit lifter. However, this is not the aim of the designs as of yet. The principle aim in a practical sense is to beat the energy/thrust ratio provided by photon thrusters which use the momentum of photons (of light, x-rays, etc.) as the reaction mass. Photon thrust devices require 2.94x10^9 watts per kg-f of thrust. As light speed is approached, light momentum transfer becomes the most efficient propulsion known to date. Having to carry reaction mass greatly limits propulsion technology in space, especially at intersteller speeds. Even at comparatively low speeds much can be gained by even a poor reaction-mass-free momentum drive. An improvement of even a mere factor of 10 in power/thrust over photon drives provides very practical station keeping facilites for solar cell powered spacecraft. An improvement by a factor of 100 provides very useful propulsion for unmanned solar system probes. Not having to carry reaction mass can make for highly miniaturized robot space missions. Achieving any net thrust at all from the ZPF, however, would be a colossal scientific discovery, and ultimately probably the practical equivalent to the invention of the principles of the wheel or the sail. If we ever discover a way to get even the tiniest momentum bite out of the vacuum, then the field will get a LOT of attention, and it is just a matter of time ... The achievement of a 1 g massless propulsion drive means the ability to exceed light speed (see Paul Hill's book, *Unconventional Flying Objects*) from an observers point of view. Such a capability, coupled with a zero-time quantum entanglement communication channel, could allow interstellar exploration within our lifetimes, and clearly, the crushing of the bonds and limitations of relativity. However luniacal the effort, it is worth the struggle in my opinion. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 12:54:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA09901; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:53:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:53:10 -0700 Message-ID: <20030712195307.39609.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:53:07 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"gComk1.0.TQ2.bS64_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51178 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: gotcha! but... if teh field exists, it would (logically to me anyway) be very thin and spread out. generating work from the feild would likely weaken it, thus reducing the amount of energy in that amount of near vacuum. while a great idea for acheiving colder temperatures, there would honestly be a limit to the amount of energy extractable from an area. i think. i could be wrong. but yeah, it IS worth teh exploration. --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 9:11 AM 7/12/3, alexander hollins wrote: > >gotcha!! sorry, im new here!lol > > > >okay, so what you're saying is that contrary to > most > >belief, at zero kelvin, theres still a little > brownian > >motion, and since there shouldnt be, there must be > >something supplying that energy, and the casimir > >effect is trying to capture that energy. > >hmm, interesting, ill have to read more. but > wouldnt > >the weight of any device using that energy outweigh > >the actual yeild, in terms of propulsion? > > > In a practical sense that is likely true. In a > theoretical sense, if there > is no limit to the acceleration applied, then for > some acceleration of the > device, the force generated by inertial mass > reduction at some point in the > cycle exceeds the gravitational mass of the circuit. > Since g forces of > over 1000 can easily be supported, an inertial mass > reduction of 0.1 > percent of the "flywheel" or vibrating circuit > results in a heavy body > earth to orbit lifter. > > However, this is not the aim of the designs as of > yet. The principle aim > in a practical sense is to beat the energy/thrust > ratio provided by photon > thrusters which use the momentum of photons (of > light, x-rays, etc.) as the > reaction mass. Photon thrust devices require > 2.94x10^9 watts per kg-f of > thrust. As light speed is approached, light > momentum transfer becomes the > most efficient propulsion known to date. Having to > carry reaction mass > greatly limits propulsion technology in space, > especially at intersteller > speeds. > > Even at comparatively low speeds much can be gained > by even a poor > reaction-mass-free momentum drive. An improvement > of even a mere factor of > 10 in power/thrust over photon drives provides very > practical station > keeping facilites for solar cell powered spacecraft. > An improvement by a > factor of 100 provides very useful propulsion for > unmanned solar system > probes. Not having to carry reaction mass can make > for highly miniaturized > robot space missions. > > Achieving any net thrust at all from the ZPF, > however, would be a colossal > scientific discovery, and ultimately probably the > practical equivalent to > the invention of the principles of the wheel or the > sail. If we ever > discover a way to get even the tiniest momentum bite > out of the vacuum, > then the field will get a LOT of attention, and it > is just a matter of time > ... > > The achievement of a 1 g massless propulsion drive > means the ability to > exceed light speed (see Paul Hill's book, > *Unconventional Flying Objects*) > from an observers point of view. Such a capability, > coupled with a > zero-time quantum entanglement communication > channel, could allow > interstellar exploration within our lifetimes, and > clearly, the crushing of > the bonds and limitations of relativity. > > However luniacal the effort, it is worth the > struggle in my opinion. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 20:59:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA05157; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:58:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:58:32 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:02:48 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Resent-Message-ID: <"Og8jo3.0.UG1.eZD4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51179 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:53 PM 7/12/3, alexander hollins wrote: >gotcha! > >but... >if teh field exists, it would (logically to me anyway) >be very thin and spread out. generating work from the >feild would likely weaken it, thus reducing the amount >of energy in that amount of near vacuum. while a >great idea for acheiving colder temperatures, there >would honestly be a limit to the amount of energy >extractable from an area. i think. i could be wrong. > > >but yeah, it IS worth teh exploration. I just got back from a 62 mile bicycle trip. Whew! Am I dehydrated! Time to catch a lemonade, a shower and be off camping. The chores can always wait! 8^) Keep in mind that the strategy of the inertial drive is *not* direct extraction of energy from the ZPF. It is using the reduction in inertial mass, made possible by manipulation of the ZPF, to assist in going from one point to another. If you think about it, if the two points are at the same energy potential, that should not take any energy at all. That which is borrowed from the vacuum must ultimately be replaced at the end of the journey if it is between two points at the same (gravitational) potential. However, if the desired approach is to directly extract energy from the ZPF, I think the associated values are much better quantified. The following is an excerpt from the Atomic Expansion Hypothesis I posted here in 1996. I guess it's the lazy quick way to respond to your comments, but it will hopefully be of use, though keep in mind it is the writing of an amateur and an admitted free energy lunatic. 8^) HOW MUCH ENERGY AND POWER IS AVAILABLE FROM ZPE? John Wheeler and Richard Feynman, when first examining the possibility of vacuum energy, calculated that there is enough energy in the vacuum of a light bulb to boil all the seas. The problem is designing a mechanism to effectively extract this energy. The energy available is dependent upon the method used to extract it, be that polarization of the vacuum, the Casimir Effect, etc. The atomic expansion method depends upon the amount of orbital deformation achievable per transaction, and the transaction repeat rate per volume achievable. It does appear the two goals, high repeat rate, and high confinement, typically oppose each other. The ZP energy fills every vacuum. If there is not a cutoff frequency, that energy is infinite. Assuming a cutoff frequency of near the Plank frequency (wavelength) of about 10^-33 cm, the energy density is on the order of 10^94 g/cm^3. Multiply by c^2 and you have an enormous energy density - which does not have to remain constant, but can replenish itself from the ZPE sea if tapped. The energy density rho(w) is characterized by H. E. Puthoff (Ref. 7) by: rho(w) dw = [w^2/pi^2*c^3]/[hw/2] dw = (hw^3) / (2*pi^2*c^3) dw joules/m^3 Rearranging we have: rho(w) dw = (h/(2*pi^2*c^3)) w^3 dw joules/m^3 rho(w) dw = K w^3 dw, where K = (h/(2*pi^2*c^3)) joules/m^3 Integrating over w=0 to w=B to get cumulative energy density f(B) to cutoff frequency B: f(B) = K/4 B^4 This indicates that the total energy density of the vacuum (though not constant if tapped) is proportional to the fourth power of the cutoff frequency being tapped. The big problem is figuring out how to tap this energy. If a method of tapping ZPE energy is found, conservation of energy is not violated, the second law of thermodynnamics is violated, as the replacement energy ultimately flows from elsewhere in the universe. Of interest is that most of the ZP energy is in the top frequencies of the ZP spectrum tapped. The bottom 98 percent of the frequency distribution tapped contains (.98)^4 or 92 percent of the energy. The top two percent contains about 8 percent of the energy. This implies it is best to utilize the smallest possible wavelengths in a ZPE extracting mechanism, and therefore, most likely, the smallest possible structures. This leaves atomic structures as the most likely regime to get good results. Further evaluating f(B) for dimensionless frequency B (in Hz) we get: f(B) = [1.556 x 10^-61 joules/m^3] B^4 Now, considering radiation on an atomic scale, i.e. wavelength of 1 angstrom, or 10^-10 m, we get B ~ [3 x 10^17 Hz.] so: f(B) = [1.556 x 10^-61 joules/m^3] [3 x 10^17 Hz.]^4 f(B) = 1.26 x 10^9 joules/m^3 f(B) = 1260 joules/cm^3 If only the top 2 percent of the accessible ZPE frequency band is utilized, we get an energy density of about 1260/8 ~ 100 joules per cm^3. Now, to consider power tapping capabilities, and some pretty big guesses. Given the extreme ZPE energy density at high frequencies, it is reasonable to assume that the tapped energy, i.e. energy removed from the imaginary cm^3 can be replaced at nearly the speed of light, or about 10^-10 second to replenish the cm^3. Given a collection of atomic sized devices located in the cm^3, we could use the macro size of 1 cm instead of 1 angstrom as the distance from which the replenishing energy must come, even though the higher ZPE wavelengths within the angstrom dimension micro structure volume could resupply the volume initially, with the minor resulting deficit at all ZPE frequencies spreading like a wave throughout the universe. This conservative choice gives an event cycle rate maximum of 10^10 event cycles per second, each cycle taking at most some fraction of the 100 joules residing in the imaginary cm^3. If we can somehow extract 1/10,000 the ZPE energy in the cm^3, we would be able to extract 10^5 joules / cm^3 / sec., or 10,000 W/cm^3. If there are only 1 out of 10,000 sites active per cycle, and we could extract 1/10,000 the ZPE energy in each site per cycle, we would get 1 W/cm^3. However, since we are using such a small part of the ZPE spectrum, replenishment might be able to happen from the locality as fast as 10^-20 second per cell, so would not be a practical limitation in any sense. Such a local replenishment would depend upon the existance of a mechanism for the energy of higher ZPE frequencies being converted to and replenishing the frequency band being tapped. The potential energy release is unlimited from any reasonable standpoint. The real limitations are event density and event repetition rate, and these are strictly design parameters that depend upon the ingenuity of the designer and choice of medium. This is not to say that finding a method of extracting any net energy is easy. Though the ZPE sea abounds, it is very difficult to extract the energy from it. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 12 22:21:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA01567; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:20:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:20:54 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030713061941.0068b310@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 06:19:41 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"uI6Pm1.0.PO.rmE4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51180 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:08 pm 11-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >At 10:29 PM 7/11/3, Grimer wrote: >>At 12:20 am 11-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >[snip] >>>Are you saying the spring innards are somehow differently affected by >>>waving around gyros verses dead weights, or even live people for that >>>matter? >> >>Certainly, if in each case the spring is a real spring and the >>stresses in the spring follow a different path from beginning to end. > > >Well ... that certainly is a creative perspective! I hope there are many >more of them to come. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner You can count on it You mentioned Vortex Aether Believers in one of your posts. It would be interesting to know how many Vortexians would own up to this wicked heresy. ;-) I assume you are not one of them since you refer to the Casimir force as an internal attraction rather than an external compression. It would be even more interesting to know how they came to loose their faith in the aether's non existences - and whether it was a slow realization or a Damascene conversion. Any volunteers? :-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 07:11:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA17465; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:09:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:09:03 -0700 Message-ID: <20030714140859.82690.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:08:59 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"GjIMV3.0.jG4.-bh4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51181 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: lazy quick way... sure! scuse me, i have about 4 hours of reading to do, research time! lol (amateur my ass!) --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 12:53 PM 7/12/3, alexander hollins wrote: > >gotcha! > > > >but... > >if teh field exists, it would (logically to me > anyway) > >be very thin and spread out. generating work from > the > >feild would likely weaken it, thus reducing the > amount > >of energy in that amount of near vacuum. while a > >great idea for acheiving colder temperatures, there > >would honestly be a limit to the amount of energy > >extractable from an area. i think. i could be > wrong. > > > > > >but yeah, it IS worth teh exploration. > > > I just got back from a 62 mile bicycle trip. Whew! > Am I dehydrated! Time > to catch a lemonade, a shower and be off camping. > The chores can always > wait! 8^) > > Keep in mind that the strategy of the inertial drive > is *not* direct > extraction of energy from the ZPF. It is using the > reduction in inertial > mass, made possible by manipulation of the ZPF, to > assist in going from one > point to another. If you think about it, if the two > points are at the same > energy potential, that should not take any energy at > all. That which is > borrowed from the vacuum must ultimately be replaced > at the end of the > journey if it is between two points at the same > (gravitational) potential. > > However, if the desired approach is to directly > extract energy from the > ZPF, I think the associated values are much better > quantified. The > following is an excerpt from the Atomic Expansion > Hypothesis I posted here > in 1996. I guess it's the lazy quick way to respond > to your comments, but > it will hopefully be of use, though keep in mind it > is the writing of an > amateur and an admitted free energy lunatic. 8^) > > HOW MUCH ENERGY AND POWER IS AVAILABLE FROM ZPE? > > John Wheeler and Richard Feynman, when first > examining the possibility of > vacuum energy, calculated that there is enough > energy in the vacuum of a > light bulb to boil all the seas. The problem is > designing a mechanism to > effectively extract this energy. The energy > available is dependent upon > the method used to extract it, be that polarization > of the vacuum, the > Casimir Effect, etc. The atomic expansion method > depends upon the amount > of orbital deformation achievable per transaction, > and the transaction > repeat rate per volume achievable. It does appear > the two goals, high > repeat rate, and high confinement, typically oppose > each other. > > The ZP energy fills every vacuum. If there is not a > cutoff frequency, that > energy is infinite. Assuming a cutoff frequency of > near the Plank > frequency (wavelength) of about 10^-33 cm, the > energy density is on the > order of 10^94 g/cm^3. Multiply by c^2 and you have > an enormous energy > density - which does not have to remain constant, > but can replenish itself > from the ZPE sea if tapped. > > The energy density rho(w) is characterized by H. E. > Puthoff (Ref. 7) by: > > rho(w) dw = [w^2/pi^2*c^3]/[hw/2] dw > = (hw^3) / (2*pi^2*c^3) dw joules/m^3 > > Rearranging we have: > > rho(w) dw = (h/(2*pi^2*c^3)) w^3 dw joules/m^3 > > rho(w) dw = K w^3 dw, where K = (h/(2*pi^2*c^3)) > joules/m^3 > > > Integrating over w=0 to w=B to get cumulative energy > density f(B) to cutoff > frequency B: > > f(B) = K/4 B^4 > > This indicates that the total energy density of the > vacuum (though not > constant if tapped) is proportional to the fourth > power of the cutoff > frequency being tapped. The big problem is figuring > out how to tap this > energy. If a method of tapping ZPE energy is found, > conservation of energy > is not violated, the second law of thermodynnamics > is violated, as the > replacement energy ultimately flows from elsewhere > in the universe. > > Of interest is that most of the ZP energy is in the > top frequencies of the > ZP spectrum tapped. The bottom 98 percent of the > frequency distribution > tapped contains (.98)^4 or 92 percent of the energy. > The top two percent > contains about 8 percent of the energy. This > implies it is best to utilize > the smallest possible wavelengths in a ZPE > extracting mechanism, and > therefore, most likely, the smallest possible > structures. This leaves > atomic structures as the most likely regime to get > good results. > > Further evaluating f(B) for dimensionless frequency > B (in Hz) we get: > > f(B) = [1.556 x 10^-61 joules/m^3] B^4 > > Now, considering radiation on an atomic scale, i.e. > wavelength of 1 > angstrom, or 10^-10 m, we get B ~ [3 x 10^17 Hz.] > so: > > f(B) = [1.556 x 10^-61 joules/m^3] [3 x 10^17 Hz.]^4 > > f(B) = 1.26 x 10^9 joules/m^3 > > f(B) = 1260 joules/cm^3 > > If only the top 2 percent of the accessible ZPE > frequency band is utilized, > we get an energy density of about 1260/8 ~ 100 > joules per cm^3. > > Now, to consider power tapping capabilities, and > some pretty big guesses. > Given the extreme ZPE energy density at high > frequencies, it is reasonable > to assume that the tapped energy, i.e. energy > removed from the imaginary > cm^3 can be replaced at nearly the speed of light, > or about 10^-10 second > to replenish the cm^3. Given a collection of atomic > sized devices located > in the cm^3, we could use the macro size of 1 cm > instead of 1 angstrom as > the distance from which the replenishing energy must > come, even though the > higher ZPE wavelengths within the angstrom dimension > micro structure volume > could resupply the volume initially, with the minor > resulting deficit at > all ZPE frequencies spreading like a wave throughout > the universe. This > conservative choice gives an event cycle rate > maximum of 10^10 event cycles > per second, each cycle taking at most some fraction > of the 100 joules > residing in the imaginary cm^3. If we can somehow > extract 1/10,000 the ZPE > energy in the cm^3, we would be able to extract 10^5 > joules / cm^3 / sec., > or 10,000 W/cm^3. If there are only 1 out of 10,000 > sites active per > cycle, and we could extract 1/10,000 the ZPE energy > in each site per > cycle, we would get 1 W/cm^3. > > However, since we are using such a small part of the > ZPE spectrum, > replenishment might be able to happen from the > locality as fast as 10^-20 > second per cell, so would not be a practical > limitation in any sense. Such > a local replenishment would depend upon the > existance of a mechanism for > the energy of higher ZPE frequencies being converted > to and replenishing > the frequency band being tapped. The potential > energy release is unlimited > === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 12:52:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA11098; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:50:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:50:18 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:52:31 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex , Schnurer Subject: E Mail for integrityresearchinstitute.org Tom Valone Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-zgLl3.0.7j2.vbm4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51182 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, Does anyone have E mail for Tom Valone? I went to integrityresearchinstitute.org ....and there was no E mail address I could find to write the IRI or Tom a letter. Thanks for your time, JH From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 13:24:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA30603; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:22:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:22:37 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F100359.9020400@rtpatlanta.com> References: <3F100359.9020400@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:21:20 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Strange Spam Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"7rY79.0.wT7.A4n4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51183 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>I went to the website at www.federalfundingprogram.com . There was >>a link that said click here for your reward. I put my pointer on >>the link and the tool bar showed that it was a .exe file. I smell >>virus. >> > >That URL is owned by PK Marketing in Woburn, MA, notorious spammers. >Neat idea, tho. > >Terry Spyware perhaps? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 13:25:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA30662; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:22:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:22:43 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1c4.c6f6e1d.2c41914c@aol.com> References: <1c4.c6f6e1d.2c41914c@aol.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:21:20 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"fSu4C2.0.lU7.G4n4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51184 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive
I was so impressed with Horace's design that I forwarded it to Hal Puthoff and received the following.

Although the principle may be OK (I didn't examine it in detail), for sure the main problem is the one Horace addressed at the end, and that is just how much inertial mass reduction do you get.  Unfortunately, in all our calculations it is vanishingly small because it goes as the ratio of reduced ZPF to initial ZPF - - really small!

Just like the Scharnhorst Effect in which the velocity of light is increased between Casimir plates, but only about one part in 10^36!

Hal


Nuts, foiled again.

My question to Hal was wouldn't the plates have to be so close together that no gas atoms could get in between them? Perhaps it we ionized them? It would seem to me that the heavier the atom the better, Xenon perhaps?

According to Robert Cook's former financial backer the drive moved over when they energized it, the question is how far. I had a long discussion with "bootstrap Jim" Cox. He thinks that he can build a pack that will levitate a man with an ultra light engine. Unfortunately his prototype just hops up and down. Oh well, if it was easy someone would have done it already.

I've read Horace's subsequent posts and I need some clarification. ZPF occurs when we cool a group of atoms to the point were an Einstein Bose condensation occurs? Then we might me able to manipulate them in such a way as to produce this phenomena?

Did any of you people read the article in the latest Infinite Energy? The thing about producing the circular molecule which is bonded to a sphere of ceramic I understand, the part about the rachet mechanism, ditto, but how do you extract energy from this. Some how this rotation is supposed to produce energy. He's looking for funding, of course. AFAIK, the only system I know of which defeats the second law, is the web of life, which, IMHO is divinely ordered.


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 14:10:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05029; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20030714210832.11367.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:08:32 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"uaSp-.0.UE1.Pln4_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51185 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: infinite energy? published magazine or ezine? and how does the web of life violate 2nd law? --- thomas malloy wrote: --------------------------------- Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial DriveI was so impressed with Horace's design that I forwarded it toHal Puthoff and received the following. Although the principle may be OK (I didn't examine itin detail), for sure the main problem is the one Horace addressed atthe end, and that is just how much inertial mass reduction do youget. Unfortunately, in all our calculations it is vanishinglysmall because it goes as the ratio of reduced ZPF to initial ZPF - -really small! Just like the Scharnhorst Effect in which the velocity of light isincreased between Casimir plates, but only about one part in10^36! Hal Nuts, foiled again. My question to Hal was wouldn't the plates have to be so closetogether that no gas atoms could get in between them? Perhaps it weionized them? It would seem to me that the heavier the atom thebetter, Xenon perhaps? According to Robert Cook's former financial backer the drivemoved over when they energized it, the question is how far. I had along discussion with "bootstrap Jim" Cox. He thinks that hecan build a pack that will levitate a man with an ultra light engine.Unfortunately his prototype just hops up and down. Oh well, if it waseasy someone would have done it already. I've read Horace's subsequent posts and I need someclarification. ZPF occurs when we cool a group of atoms to the pointwere an Einstein Bose condensation occurs? Then we might me able tomanipulate them in such a way as to produce this phenomena? Did any of you people read the article in the latest InfiniteEnergy? The thing about producing the circular molecule which isbonded to a sphere of ceramic I understand, the part about the rachetmechanism, ditto, but how do you extract energy from this. Some howthis rotation is supposed to produce energy. He's looking for funding,of course. AFAIK, the only system I know of which defeats the secondlaw, is the web of life, which, IMHO is divinely ordered. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 14:31:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA01362; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:30:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:30:30 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:35:37 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Resent-Message-ID: <"XlIQ72.0.AL.s3o4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51186 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you want any response, please post in text. I think the newslist server would be much improved if HTML were automatically stripped before posting and archiving. Oh, well, I guess I am just an anti-monoply reactionary. 8^) At 3:21 PM 7/14/3, thomas malloy wrote: > >Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive >
I was so impressed with Horace's design that I forwarded it to >Hal Puthoff and received the following.
>

>
color="#000000">Although the principle may be OK (I didn't examine it >in detail), for sure the main problem is the one Horace addressed at >the end, and that is just how much inertial mass reduction do you >get.  Unfortunately, in all our calculations it is vanishingly >small because it goes as the ratio of reduced ZPF to initial ZPF - - >really small!
>
>Just like the Scharnhorst Effect in which the velocity of light is >increased between Casimir plates, but only about one part in >10^36!
>
>Hal
>

>
>
>
Nuts, foiled again.
>

>
My question to Hal was wouldn't the plates have to be so close >together that no gas atoms could get in between them? Perhaps it we >ionized them? It would seem to me that the heavier the atom the >better, Xenon perhaps?
>

>
According to Robert Cook's former financial backer the drive >moved over when they energized it, the question is how far. I had a >long discussion with "bootstrap Jim" Cox. He thinks that he >can build a pack that will levitate a man with an ultra light engine. >Unfortunately his prototype just hops up and down. Oh well, if it was >easy someone would have done it already.
>

>
I've read Horace's subsequent posts and I need some >clarification. ZPF occurs when we cool a group of atoms to the point >were an Einstein Bose condensation occurs? Then we might me able to >manipulate them in such a way as to produce this phenomena?
>

>
Did any of you people read the article in the latest Infinite >Energy? The thing about producing the circular molecule which is >bonded to a sphere of ceramic I understand, the part about the rachet >mechanism, ditto, but how do you extract energy from this. Some how >this rotation is supposed to produce energy. He's looking for funding, >of course. AFAIK, the only system I know of which defeats the second >law, is the web of life, which, IMHO is divinely ordered.
>

>

> > Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 14:47:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA13063; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:46:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:46:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20030714214559.55707.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:45:59 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20030714210832.11367.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"p79vQ3.0.1C3.PIo4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51187 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: here horace, this should be html free. > --------------------------------- > Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial DriveI was so impressed > with > Horace's design that I forwarded it toHal Puthoff > and > received the following. > > > Although the principle may be OK (I didn't examine > itin detail), for sure the main problem is the one > Horace addressed atthe end, and that is just how > much > inertial mass reduction do youget. Unfortunately, > in > all our calculations it is vanishinglysmall because > it > goes as the ratio of reduced ZPF to initial ZPF - > -really small! > > Just like the Scharnhorst Effect in which the > velocity > of light isincreased between Casimir plates, but > only > about one part in10^36! > > Hal > > > Nuts, foiled again. > > > My question to Hal was wouldn't the plates have to > be > so closetogether that no gas atoms could get in > between them? Perhaps it weionized them? It would > seem > to me that the heavier the atom thebetter, Xenon > perhaps? > > > According to Robert Cook's former financial backer > the > drivemoved over when they energized it, the question > is how far. I had along discussion with "bootstrap > Jim" Cox. He thinks that hecan build a pack that > will > levitate a man with an ultra light > engine.Unfortunately his prototype just hops up and > down. Oh well, if it waseasy someone would have done > it already. > > > I've read Horace's subsequent posts and I need > someclarification. ZPF occurs when we cool a group > of > atoms to the pointwere an Einstein Bose condensation > occurs? Then we might me able tomanipulate them in > such a way as to produce this phenomena? > > > Did any of you people read the article in the latest > InfiniteEnergy? The thing about producing the > circular > molecule which isbonded to a sphere of ceramic I > understand, the part about the rachetmechanism, > ditto, > but how do you extract energy from this. Some > howthis > rotation is supposed to produce energy. He's looking > for funding,of course. AFAIK, the only system I know > of which defeats the secondlaw, is the web of life, > which, IMHO is divinely ordered. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 14:49:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA14525; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:48:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:48:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3F13184C.FA2EF985@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:10:08 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: E Mail for integrityresearchinstitute.org Tom Valone References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F5812BD326987E94D3AE1CD5" Resent-Message-ID: <"NGB8F1.0.oY3.zKo4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51188 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F5812BD326987E94D3AE1CD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No e-mail but his phone number is 800 295 7674. Ed John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Vo, > > Does anyone have E mail for Tom Valone? > > I went to integrityresearchinstitute.org ....and there was no E > mail address I could find to write the IRI or Tom a letter. > > Thanks for your time, > > JH --------------F5812BD326987E94D3AE1CD5 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="storms2.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="storms2.vcf" begin:vcard n:; tel;work:505 988 3673 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html org:Energy K. System adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html version:2.1 email;internet:storms2@ix.netcom.com x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Edmund Storms end:vcard --------------F5812BD326987E94D3AE1CD5-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 15:11:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA28269; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:10:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:10:10 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <18a.1ce54dec.2c448405@aol.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:09:09 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, thebishop@usadatanet.net, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, wpeterson2@attbi.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_18a.1ce54dec.2c448405_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"0GNZa2.0.dv6.2fo4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51189 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_18a.1ce54dec.2c448405_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/12/2003 7:30:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, conextom@aol.com writes: > : Re: [Antigravity] Pete's Gravim I found a reference quote to the definition of Gravism which must be similar to Pete's Gravim on Pg. 133 of the book, Universal Laws Never Before Revealed: Keely's Secrets Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration (Keely UL) By Dale Pond, John Kelly, Nikola Tesla, Edgar Cayce, & seven others, as follows: "Gravism is the transmissive form (of energy) through a medium of atomoles in the fourth state, or a medium composed of atomolini." and here are the other definitions of the other laws of matter and force: "Atomoles are elementary units of matter uniform in size and weight, and exist in solid, liquid, gaseous and solated forms. Atomonlini are ultimate units of atomoles, and when in a liquid state are the media for the transmission of gravism. The illimitable divisibility and aggregation of matter is a logical sequence. Atoms are multiple combinations of atomoles, and they also exist in solid, liquid, gaseous, and isolated forms. Electricity is the oscillation of the atomoles of an atom. Gravity is the mutual attraction of atomoles Pg 133 Keely UL" I have discovered by reading the above book (Keely UL), how Keely's secrets can be used to move the Earth, similar to your ideas of Pete's Gravim. At the neutral center of the Earth, and at the center of all spherical bodies, there is a 4th dimensional vacuum point or parallel counter matter point in a parallel universe which connects all of the bodies in the universe together in a higher 4th dimensional plane, from which all of the energy in the universe is focused upon, by means of harmony and sympathetic vibration of all of the 3 types of energies in relation to counter matter (positive dominant propulsive electricity, enharmonic neutral balance, attractive harmonic negative magnetic) acting on a spherical body. The distance you gave in an earlier email to the depth of the bottomless pit under the pyramid which may be a virtual energy pit or trap is very close to the center of the Earth, even if the Earth is a hollow sphere with a crust 1000 miles thick, as are most celestial bodies such as the sun. We must use physics which models the Earth and other solar objects as hollow spheres to get the correct numbers, if celestial bodies are hollow. The speed of the rotation of the Earth can change the equilibrium balance at the center of the Earth harmonizing with all of the energies acting on the Earth from other stellar and cosmic bodies. "The neutral center of any spherical body is established when rotation exceeds 100 revolutions per minute in a vibratory circuit running at 100,000 per second, to neutralize the influence of gravity to move the Earth by means of antigravity or telekinetic repulsion Pg. 79 Keely UL " All objects in the universe are connected together by means of bipolar gravity fields in two parallel universes of matter and mirror image of matter or counter matter (antimatter). In the matter universe we have particles, friction, energy consumption, reaction forces, and the law of least resistance, while in the mirror telekinetic antimatter universe we have waves, no friction, no energy consumption, no reaction force, no gravity, and the laws of the greatest resistance. By changing the properties of the mirror counter matter universe which needs no energy and has no friction, we can move planets or objects in the matter universe, without using any energy which is similar to antigravity principles. Any time a telekinetic or counter matter event occurs there is a faint phosphorous glow which records the Quantum energy changes of the photonic energy which is released in a low nuclear energy transition event, which can be recorded on high speed thermographic film. We can use cameras and video's to monitor the Quantum low nuclear energy changes in the matter universe from the counter matter universe to create biofeedback loops between the two parallel universes to steer the movement of objects in our matter universe. The Earth must have a phosphoric glow which can be seen on a thermographic satellite camera's and measured to precise numbers, and by changing the properties of the counter matter universe around the Earth, we can see the changes in the glow of the Earth to record the changes precisely, and move the Earth without expending large amounts of energy by means of counter matter or antigravity and sympathetic vibration principles to change the resonant properties of the Earth in relation to the other stellar and cosmic objects. By changing the speed of rotation of the Earth, we can move the Earth into a new orbit, by changing the relation of the Earth in terms of speed of rotation, to other celestial bodies. All of the bodies in the solar system and universe all connect to the center of the Earth like a series of gyroscopes, so that if the Earth is moved to a new orbit then it may change the higher 4th dimensional relation between the Earth and the other bodies in the universe. We simply need to create a computer model of the matter and counter matter properties and atmospheres of all cosmic bodies in the universe represented by a series of gyroscopes connected together at the neutral 4th dimensional vacuum point center of each celestial body (Center of Universe, Galactic Center, Solar Center, Earth's Center, Molecular Center of all physical bodies on Earth); and then change the speed of Earth's orbit, to discover how the Earth will move and rotate, and what the energy and atmospheric values of the Earth at the neutral center and in the atmosphere will be like in the new orbit caused by the new rotation, to discover the best rotation speed and orbit that will place Earth in an ideal orbit. Then we can use the principles of sympathetic vibration of the Earth by placing harmonic objects on the outer rim of the Earth either on the surface of the Earth, or under the Earth in caves with pyramids or in pyramidal satellites, space stations, or airships orbiting the Earth, to create an enharmonic and diatonic ring around the Earth, to retune the Earth's harmonic frequencies to change the speed of rotation of the Earth and its orbit to ideal. I still have to read the rest of the Keely's Secrets book above, to fully understand how to engineer the pyramids or airships to change the harmonic properties of the Earth. The (Keely UL) book describes a vibratory transmitter which has an enharmonic and diatonic ring around the transmitter vacuum sphere, to collect the energy from the vacuum based on the laws of the triple progression in a series of chords from the 3rd, to the 6th, to the 9th chords in music, which are modified by a rotating siren or musical instrument to transfer sonic or musical energy and vacuum energy to another disintegrator sphere by means of a silver and platinum tube like wire, which collects the plasma energy to encourage cavitation in water or air molecules to break them down into hydrogen and oxygen; and which then creates a resultant shock wave of more energy than the original, from which the additional energy is used to further create smaller cavitations of the gas hydrogen and oxygen elements to transform the gas into a plasma under high pressures, to create a continual cold fusion energy reaction to run motors and create energy. The cavitation pressure of spheres no smaller than 10^-4 cm is about 1000 atm pressure, and the pressure increases when the cavities are made smaller by implosion. The inverse of the square of the atomic number of an element such as oxygen or hydrogen equals its oscillation pitch, which is the frequency that can be used to break down the element into smaller plasma or subatomic low level nuclear particles and cavitation spheres by implosion. Keely also gives on Pg 209 (Keely UL), a table of all of the musical and sonic octaves from 1 to the 86th octave, which relates each octave's sound frequency to the overtones and undertones in the resonant frequency of all physical objects such as atoms, and molecules. Sonism is from octave 2 to ll, Sonothermism is from octave 22 to 42, Thermism, Radiant Energy, and Chemism is from octave 43 to 64, Electricity, Induction and Magnetism is from octave 65 to 86. "Starting at the known temperature and pitch of a heated body, emitting definite rays of light, and working back to the absolute zero, we again reach the pitch of the sono-thermic limit Pg 209 (Keely UL)" We can use the musical octaves and devices which create musical tones at the octave level to resonate at the resonant frequency of the molecules of water such as hydrogen and oxygen, which occurs from the 26 to 29th musical octaves to create cavitation energy to disassociate the molecules into gas elements and then also use the higher octave frequencies of the atomic elements from the 30th to the 34th (Highest interatomic or etheric vacuum energy of 17,179,869,184 cps) to create further cavitation, and so on to create cold fusion energy from successive cavitation implosion's caused by musical octave energies and sonic implosion energies applied in resonant series. The pyramids in Pete's Gravim, may use musical instruments and octaves, sonic implosion and sympathetic vibration principles as mentioned above to create a cold fusion reaction in a gas or liquid such as water to create electricity, and to direct a sonic or low nuclear energy beam to the center of the Earth called the bottomless pit in Pete's Gravim, to gain energy from the center of the Earth or to change energy and telekinetic relations, and to retune the Earth's crust and atmosphere to move the Earth by means of telekinetic or counter matter or antigravity events. I am still working on the fountain of life or youth pyramids to clean the atmosphere from pollutants and transform nuclear waste into harmless lead or gold byproducts by means of changing the speed of time around polluted water or gases to accelerate the readioactive decay a million fold so that the decay occurs instantly and the byproduct is clean water, air, and lead or gold particles. I am researching how to create time reversal and acceleration of time by means of microwave beams and force fields which can be generated in the pyramids by means of low level nuclear cold fusion reactions. The stream and plasma energy coming out of the pyramid's exhaust pipes, could be filled with ions, oh ozone and sonic or infrared energies created by means of gold plasma plates to bond with pollutants in the atmosphere or disintegrated them to clean the local atmosphere around the pyramid within a range of 20 miles. The plasma gases coming from the pyramids exhaust pipes cannot reach the ozone layer to enhance it, since the gas will react with the lower atmosphere to clean out pollutants before it reaches the ozone layer, so that a sonic or microwave beam must be used instead to enhance the ozone layer. The ozone layer is 10 miles above the Earth and can be repaired by directing a sonic or microwave energy beam from the pyramid into the ozone to create more ozone. A computer and sensors will have to be installed in the pyramid to monitor the pyramid's operation, functions, and the local atmosphere to sense, measure, and target the pollutants with energy beams to transform them into harmless byproducts. A typical city, 40 miles by 40 miles, may need up to 5 pyramids, with 4 pyramids placed on the outer edges of the city and one at the center, to constantly clean the atmosphere. A typical pyramid 100 feet at the base and 200 feet tall with the above cold fusion, energy beam, and pollution control measures, may cost a few million dollars to build and should be self maintainable by means of computers, communication networks between pyramids and a central office, and cold fusion reactions to power the pyramid, so that annual operation costs are low, and excess energy can be sold to the city energy grid. 2 airships in the form of a pyramid and run by computers, which use the same above energy generation and pollution cleaning principles can move around the city to clean the atmosphere, generate energy by means of cold fusion, strengthen the ozone, create force fields, add energy to the cities energy grid by means of microwaves, and can be used as communication satellites all at the same time. Airships may be more expensive than pyramids, but Airships can move around to be more effective. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_18a.1ce54dec.2c448405_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/12/2003 7:30:04 PM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, conextom@aol.com writes:

: Re: [Antigravity] Pete's G= ravim



I found a reference quote to the definition of Gravism which must be similar= to Pete's Gravim on Pg. 133 of the book, Universal Laws Never Before Rev= ealed: Keely's Secrets Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vi= bration (Keely UL) By Dale Pond, John Kelly, Nikola Tesla, Edgar Cayce,=20= & seven others, as follows:

"Gravism is the transmissive form (of energy) through a medium of atomole= s in the fourth state, or a medium composed of atomolini."

and here are the other definitions of the other laws of matter and force:
"Atomoles are elementary units of matter uniform in size and weight, and=20= exist in solid, liquid, gaseous and solated forms.

Atomonlini are ultimate units of atomoles, and when in a liquid state are th= e media for the transmission of gravism.  The illimitable divisibility=20= and aggregation of matter is a logical sequence.

Atoms are multiple combinations of atomoles, and they also exist in solid, l= iquid, gaseous, and isolated forms.

Electricity is the oscillation of the atomoles of an atom.

Gravity is the mutual attraction of atomoles Pg 133 Keely UL"

I have discovered by reading the above book (Keely UL), how Keely's secr= ets can be used to move the Earth, similar to your ideas of Pete's Gravim.&n= bsp;   At the neutral center of the Earth, and at the center of al= l spherical bodies, there is a 4th dimensional vacuum point or parallel coun= ter matter point in a parallel universe which connects all of the bodies in=20= the universe together in a higher 4th dimensional plane, from which all of t= he energy in the universe is focused upon, by means of harmony and sympathet= ic vibration of all of the 3 types of energies in relation to counter matter= (positive dominant propulsive electricity, enharmonic neutral balance, attr= active harmonic negative magnetic) acting on a spherical body.   <= BR>
The distance you gave in an earlier email to the depth of the bottomless pit= under the pyramid which may be a virtual energy pit or trap is very close t= o the center of the Earth, even if the Earth is a hollow sphere with a crust= 1000 miles thick, as are most celestial bodies such as the sun.  We mu= st use physics which models the Earth and other solar objects as hollow sphe= res to get the correct numbers, if celestial bodies are hollow.

The speed of the rotation of the Earth can change the equilibrium balance at= the center of the Earth harmonizing with all of the energies acting on the=20= Earth from other stellar and cosmic bodies.  

"The neutral center of any spherical body is established when rotation ex= ceeds 100 revolutions per minute in a vibratory circuit running at 100,000 p= er second, to neutralize the influence of gravity to move the Earth by means= of antigravity or telekinetic repulsion Pg. 79 Keely UL "

All objects in the universe are connected together by means of bipolar gravi= ty fields in two parallel universes of matter and mirror image of matter or=20= counter matter (antimatter). In the matter universe we have particles, frict= ion, energy consumption, reaction forces, and the law of least resistance, w= hile in the mirror telekinetic antimatter universe we have waves, no frictio= n, no energy consumption, no reaction force, no gravity, and the laws of the= greatest resistance.  By changing the properties of the mirror counter= matter universe which needs no energy and has no friction, we can move plan= ets or objects in the matter universe, without using any energy which is sim= ilar to antigravity principles. 

Any time a telekinetic or counter matter event occurs there is a faint phosp= horous glow which records the Quantum energy changes of the photonic energy=20= which is released in a low nuclear energy transition event, which can be rec= orded on high speed thermographic film.  We can use cameras and video's= to monitor the Quantum low nuclear energy changes in the matter universe fr= om the counter matter universe to create biofeedback loops between the two p= arallel universes to steer the movement of objects in our matter universe.&n= bsp; The Earth must have a phosphoric glow which can be seen on a thermograp= hic satellite camera's and measured to precise numbers, and by changing the=20= properties of the counter matter universe around the Earth, we can see the c= hanges in the glow of the Earth to record the changes precisely, and move th= e Earth without expending large amounts of energy by means of counter matter= or antigravity and sympathetic vibration principles to change the resonant=20= properties of the Earth in relation to the other stellar and cosmic objects.=

By changing the speed of rotation of the Earth, we can move the Earth into a= new orbit, by changing the relation of the Earth in terms of speed of rotat= ion, to other celestial bodies.   All of the bodies in the solar s= ystem and universe all connect to the center of the Earth like a series of g= yroscopes, so that if the Earth is moved to a new orbit then it may change t= he higher 4th dimensional relation between the Earth and the other bodies in= the universe. 

We simply need to create a computer model of the matter and counter matter p= roperties and atmospheres of all cosmic bodies in the universe represented b= y a series of gyroscopes connected together at the neutral 4th dimensional v= acuum point center of each celestial body (Center of Universe, Galactic Cent= er, Solar Center, Earth's Center, Molecular Center of all physical bodies on= Earth); and then change the speed of Earth's orbit, to discover how the Ear= th will move and rotate, and what the energy and atmospheric values of the E= arth at the neutral center and in the atmosphere will be like in the new orb= it caused by the new rotation, to discover the best rotation speed and orbit= that will place Earth in an ideal orbit.  Then we can use the principl= es of sympathetic vibration of the Earth by placing harmonic objects on the=20= outer rim of the Earth either on the surface of the Earth, or under the Eart= h in caves with pyramids or in pyramidal satellites, space stations, or airs= hips orbiting the Earth, to create an enharmonic and diatonic ring around th= e Earth, to retune the Earth's harmonic frequencies to change the speed of r= otation of the Earth and its orbit to ideal.

I still have to read the rest of the Keely's Secrets book above, to fully un= derstand how  to engineer the pyramids or airships to change the harmon= ic properties of the Earth.
The (Keely UL) book describes a vibratory transmitter which has an enharmoni= c and diatonic ring around the transmitter vacuum sphere, to collect the ene= rgy from the vacuum based on the laws of the triple progression in a series=20= of chords from the 3rd, to the 6th, to the 9th chords in music, which are mo= dified by a rotating siren or musical instrument to transfer sonic or musica= l energy and vacuum energy to another disintegrator sphere by means of a sil= ver and platinum tube like wire, which collects the plasma energy to encoura= ge cavitation in water or air molecules to break them down into hydrogen and= oxygen; and which then creates a resultant shock wave of more energy than t= he original, from which the additional energy is used to further create smal= ler cavitations of the gas hydrogen and oxygen elements to transform the gas= into a plasma under high pressures, to create a continual cold fusion energ= y reaction to run motors and create energy.  

The cavitation pressure of spheres no smaller than 10^-4 cm is about 1000 at= m pressure, and the pressure increases when the cavities are made smaller by= implosion.   The inverse of the square of the atomic number of an= element such as oxygen or hydrogen equals its oscillation pitch, which is t= he frequency that can be used to break down the element into smaller plasma=20= or subatomic low level nuclear particles and cavitation spheres by implosion= .  Keely also gives on Pg 209 (Keely UL),  a table of all of the m= usical and sonic octaves from 1 to the 86th octave, which relates each octav= e's sound frequency to the overtones and undertones in the resonant frequenc= y of all physical objects such as atoms, and molecules.   Sonism i= s from octave 2 to ll, Sonothermism is from octave 22 to 42, Thermism, Radia= nt Energy, and Chemism is from octave 43 to 64, Electricity, Induction and M= agnetism is from octave 65 to 86.   

"Starting at the known temperature and pitch of a heated body, emitting defi= nite rays of light, and working back to the absolute zero, we again reach th= e pitch of the sono-thermic limit Pg 209 (Keely UL)"

We can use the musical octaves and devices which create musical tones at the= octave level to resonate at the resonant frequency of the molecules of wate= r such as hydrogen and oxygen, which occurs from the 26 to 29th musical octa= ves to create cavitation energy to disassociate the molecules into gas eleme= nts and then also use the higher octave frequencies of the atomic elements f= rom the 30th to the 34th (Highest interatomic or etheric vacuum energy of 17= ,179,869,184 cps) to create further cavitation, and so on to create cold fus= ion energy from successive cavitation implosion's caused by musical octave e= nergies and sonic implosion energies applied in resonant series.

The pyramids in Pete's Gravim, may use musical instruments and octaves, soni= c implosion and sympathetic vibration principles as mentioned above to creat= e a cold fusion reaction in a gas or liquid such as water to create electric= ity, and to direct a sonic or low nuclear energy beam to the center of the E= arth called the bottomless pit in Pete's Gravim, to gain energy from the cen= ter of the Earth or to change energy and telekinetic relations, and to retun= e the Earth's crust and atmosphere to move the Earth by means of telekinetic= or counter matter or antigravity events.

I am still working on the fountain of life or youth pyramids to clean the at= mosphere from pollutants and transform nuclear waste into harmless lead or g= old byproducts by means of changing the speed of time around polluted water=20= or gases to accelerate the readioactive decay a million fold so that the dec= ay occurs instantly and the byproduct is clean water, air, and lead or gold=20= particles.  I am researching how to create time reversal and accelerati= on of time by means of microwave beams and force fields which can be generat= ed in the pyramids by means of low level nuclear cold fusion reactions.

The stream and plasma energy coming out of the pyramid's exhaust pipes, coul= d be filled with ions, oh ozone and sonic or infrared energies created by me= ans of gold plasma plates to bond with pollutants in the atmosphere or disin= tegrated them to clean the local atmosphere around the pyramid within a rang= e of 20 miles.   The plasma gases coming from the pyramids exhaust= pipes cannot reach the ozone layer to enhance it, since the gas will react=20= with the lower atmosphere to clean out pollutants before it reaches the ozon= e layer, so that a sonic or microwave beam must be used instead to enhance t= he ozone layer.   The ozone layer is 10 miles above the Earth and=20= can be repaired by directing a sonic or microwave energy beam from the pyram= id into the ozone to create more ozone.  A computer and sensors will ha= ve to be installed in the pyramid to monitor the pyramid's operation, functi= ons, and the local atmosphere to sense, measure, and target the pollutants w= ith energy beams to transform them into harmless byproducts.

A typical city, 40 miles by 40 miles, may need up to 5 pyramids, with 4 pyra= mids placed on the outer edges of the city and one at the center, to constan= tly clean the atmosphere.   A typical pyramid 100 feet at the base= and 200 feet tall with the above cold fusion, energy beam, and pollution co= ntrol measures, may cost a few million dollars to build and should be self m= aintainable by means of computers, communication networks between pyramids a= nd a central office, and cold fusion reactions to power the pyramid, so that= annual operation costs are low, and excess energy can be sold to the city e= nergy grid.   2 airships in the form of a pyramid and run by compu= ters, which use the same above energy generation and pollution cleaning prin= ciples can move around the city to clean the atmosphere, generate energy by=20= means of cold fusion, strengthen the ozone, create force fields, add energy=20= to the cities energy grid by means of microwaves, and can be used as communi= cation satellites all at the same time.   Airships may be more exp= ensive than pyramids, but Airships can move around to be more effective.&nbs= p;

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_18a.1ce54dec.2c448405_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 16:08:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA27043; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:07:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:07:17 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:12:20 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Resent-Message-ID: <"rFu8t.0.Gc6.aUp4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51191 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:08 PM 7/14/3, alexander hollins wrote: >infinite energy? published magazine or ezine? > >and how does the web of life violate 2nd law? >--- thomas malloy wrote: > >--------------------------------- >Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial DriveI was so impressed with >Horace's design that I forwarded it to Hal Puthoff and >received the following. First, let me say that I posted 3 completely different thruster design strategies that have in common only the concept of using ZPF based inertial mass reduction. They are: 1. "ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive" based on use of gas or nano-disk flow through a ZPF excluded cavity 2. "ZPF basis for Dean-like drives working?" based on the notion that compressed matter will better exclude the ZPF and thus have less inertial mass. 3. "ZPF basis for Alcuberrie-like drives?" based on the idea that a very thin metal plate (say about 10^-7 m thick) charged to a high negative voltage on *both sides* will (better) exclude the ZPF from its own (metal) interior, thus making the metal act as its own cavity and to reduce its own inertial mass. Second, let me say that I strongly hesitate to email any more of my crackpot ideas to Hal Puthoff or Scott Little (both of whom were members of the vortex list at one time) or anyone else at Earthtech since I one did this much in the past, only to later find either flaws or eventual (mutual) disinterest due to a low probability of success. I am a believer in brainstorming, but sometimes have trouble sufficiently doing the required critical phase in a timely fashion. In my own defense I would like to note that I have funded my own crackpot experiments over the years to the tune of over $20,000 and have not and would not solicit money for experimental research on some kind of completely unproven concept. It is my experience that serious investments go hand in hand with business plans, not idle dreams. Accordingly, my income for the last 10 years of intensive work is $0.00. I no longer have time, space or money for serious experiments. All that said, it may well be that at least one or more of my many crackpot ideas will work. BTW, at least a couple of my ideas posted here on vortex (and/or on the White House Suggestion Web Page) have actually been implemented at some later date (one beng a rail gun design, the other being the dropping of individual MRE's in war zones.) It is also not to say that fellow free-energy enthusiasts or crackpots looking for a fun experiement may not have an interest in my designs, or at least building upon them. That's why I post .. just looking for that magic synchronicity. Just hoping to be of some use. > > >Although the principle may be OK (I didn't examine >itin detail), for sure the main problem is the one >Horace addressed atthe end, and that is just how much >inertial mass reduction do youget. Unfortunately, in >all our calculations it is vanishinglysmall because it >goes as the ratio of reduced ZPF to initial ZPF - >-really small! > >Just like the Scharnhorst Effect in which the velocity >of light isincreased between Casimir plates, but only >about one part in10^36! I think in this case Hal might be overlooking the fact that only the lower frequencies of the ZPF couple to the atoms, or at least to the electron shells. Even just eliminating much of the electron mass would produce measurable results in space. The horserace is then in power/thrust, and against the mighty poor photon rocket. Much of the equation is in the amount of power it takes to produce the small thrust expected. Essentially the same argument, a vanishingly small fraction of the ZPF band energy being excluded, applies to the Casimir force itself, yet the Casimir force is very large for a very small plate separation d. It only takes a vanishingly small part of the bandwidth of the ZPF to account for the entirety of the force of inertia. Much better quantification is required. > >Hal > > >Nuts, foiled again. Not so fast! > > >My question to Hal was wouldn't the plates have to be >so closetogether that no gas atoms could get in >between them? Perhaps it weionized them? It would seem >to me that the heavier the atom thebetter, Xenon >perhaps? Argon atoms have a diameter on the order of a couple angstroms, 2x10^-10 meter. A plate separation of 10^-8 meters produces a substantial Casimir force (which is not necessarily in *direct* proportion to the mass reduction) yet there is room for more than 50 argon atoms side by side in a 10^-8 meter gap. Nano-technology should work very well. As the slots get smaller though, the engineering and construction expenses may get a lot higher, and the energy to push a gas through is much more. However, a reduction in gap width from 10^-7 m to 10^-8 m increases the Casimir force by 10,000 times. This is why I like the idea of using an ultra thin conductor as a "cavity" (idea #3 above). It can keep its structural integrity and act as its own reaction mass. The problem then is getting enough surface charge on the thin metal foil fast enough to make a significant difference in inertial mass during a partial revolution of the mass. > > >According to Robert Cook's former financial backer the >drivemoved over when they energized it, the question >is how far. I think it was a couple inches. I don't have the source available for that. >I had along discussion with "bootstrap >Jim" Cox. He thinks that hecan build a pack that will >levitate a man with an ultra light >engine.Unfortunately his prototype just hops up and >down. Oh well, if it waseasy someone would have done >it already. Pogo sticks work fairly well for that. > > >I've read Horace's subsequent posts and I need >someclarification. ZPF occurs when we cool a group of >atoms to the pointwere an Einstein Bose condensation >occurs? Then we might me able tomanipulate them in >such a way as to produce this phenomena? No, ZPF occurs everywhere all the time. The zero point temperature is simply a good place to *observe* it. It is simply a manifestation of the effect (Heisenberg uncertainty) for which the ZPF concept was formed as an causitive description. I am no expert, but on this I feel fairly certain. > > >Did any of you people read the article in the latest >InfiniteEnergy? What issue and article? >The thing about producing the circular >molecule which isbonded to a sphere of ceramic I >understand, the part about the rachetmechanism, ditto, >but how do you extract energy from this. Some howthis >rotation is supposed to produce energy. He's looking >for funding,of course. AFAIK, the only system I know >of which defeats the secondlaw, is the web of life, >which, IMHO is divinely ordered. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 16:08:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA26963; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:07:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:07:09 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:12:15 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"cIC_-3.0.Db6.TUp4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51190 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:19 PM 7/12/3, Grimer wrote: >You mentioned Vortex Aether Believers in one of your posts. > >It would be interesting to know how many Vortexians would own up to >this wicked heresy. ;-) They don't seem to be willing to step forward! Maybe everyone is on vacation? There certainly has been plenty of discussion of orgone accumulators and other aether concepts here. > >I assume you are not one of them since you refer to the Casimir >force as an internal attraction rather than an external compression. I try to keep an open mind. I am not a "believer" in an empty vacuum, or in any specific form of aether. If I hear a concept to which I can relate, then I try to use it to look for paradoxes or devices of utility. I am much more engineering oriented than science oriented, but the notion of "engineering" the vacuum is a bit far out, thus so am I ... in left field. As to the Casimir force, it is referred to in the literature as an attractive force between plates (it certainly isn't a repulsive force between the plates!) But this is merely the common description of the effect, not the cause. The cause is typically assumed to be either a QM surface effect or an effect from some frequencies of the ZPF being excluded from the cavity between the plates, in which case it is an external pressure. In either case, a dipole force, or a lowband cutoff on the ZPF, the force is a 1/d^4 effect, and has been measured as such. The nature of an "aether effect" would be dependent on the specific aether concept involved. I suspect, most aether theories are not as well quantified as the ZPF. At any rate, much of the stuff I have posted has been based on ZPF ideas, and the plates in that case are externally pushed together. > >It would be even more interesting to know how they came to loose their >faith in the aether's non existences - and whether it was a slow >realization or a Damascene conversion. My guess is that most folks try to keep an open mind. I try to keep an open, but fall into debunkery mode faster than most, especially when I have my own crackpot vision of the issue. To enjoy and learn I have to struggle keep an open mind in this domicile!! At least all are warned when they subscribe: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "The Vortex-L list was created for discussions of professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free energy" devices, gravity generation and detection, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims." 2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden. The tone should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of debunkery, see ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Any volunteers? :-) > >Cheers, > >Frank Grimer Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 16:44:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA14051; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:43:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:43:41 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:48:44 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Schnurer From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: E Mail for integrityresearchinstitute.org Tom Valone Resent-Message-ID: <"5aeDi.0.NR3.j0q4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51192 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:52 PM 7/14/3, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Vo, > > Does anyone have E mail for Tom Valone? > > I went to integrityresearchinstitute.org ....and there was no E >mail address I could find to write the IRI or Tom a letter. > > Thanks for your time, > > JH I have talked to him in the past at . Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 19:25:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA12624; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:24:27 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:26:40 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Schnurer , Vortex Subject: Extract of letters ....Lifters Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hr0f1.0.953.QNs4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51193 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Here are parts of some comments-letters about "lifters" (A) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:04:01 -0700 From: G ".....actualy ion wind can thrust in a vacuum, the same as gasses can... ion's are just charged particles... the thruster throws out the , and as it throws out more, they push on the ones it threw out before... this is why it has more thrust on one polarity than the other; one polarity causes it to throw out positive ions, the other negative. negative ions are just free electrons while positive ions are nuclei missing electrons, so the positive ions have more mass and so more reactive force. try enclosing the device such that ion's couldn't get out and see if it still lifts. ......." (B) R wrote: > According to these websites, it WILL work in a vacuum, > it is NOT just ion wind that causes the thrust observed, > BUT thrust comes only in the presence of a dielectric > medium that can be polarized relative to the lifter: > http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/rototube/index.htm > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dorane/projet2.htm > http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifteriw.htm > (C) From: m according to this website it will not work in a vacumm http://blazelabs.com/l-vacuum.htm (D) >>>> This post should be committed to a permanent archive >>>> site to show to anyone who puts the words 'lifter' and >>>> 'antigravity' in the same sentence. >>>> >>>> In my estimation, NASA has now credibly debunked >>>> lifter technology as a a form of antigravity. I >>>> seriously doubt that even higher voltages would give >>>> anything other than ionic wind in an atmosphere and >>>> nothing in a vacuum. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 19:57:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA28711; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:56:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:56:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:59:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Horace Heffner cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: E Mail for integrityresearchinstitute.org Tom Valone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"OM5DE3.0.O07.mrs4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51194 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear HH Thank you biggley! On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 3:52 PM 7/14/3, John Schnurer wrote: > > Dear Vo, > > > > Does anyone have E mail for Tom Valone? > > > > I went to integrityresearchinstitute.org ....and there was no E > >mail address I could find to write the IRI or Tom a letter. > > > > Thanks for your time, > > > > JH > > > I have talked to him in the past at . > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 14 23:20:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA27578; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:18:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:18:43 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01c34a90$72b338c0$ac11b83f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Popped Potato Hydrogen Generation? Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:17:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407b03ecafa888769471df80c5f438eec6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"9rPoj1.0.qk6.2pv4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51195 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given that modest energy from the ordinary 2.45 GHz microwave oven, can pop corn: http://www.zyra.org.uk/microw.htm Might it be possible to pop a potato using a higher energy and/or frequency? If so, it might be possible to "fast nuke" a fresh spud (~ 70% H2O) thus turning it into CO2 + H2: Starch: C6H10-O5 + 7 H2O ---> 6 CO2 + 12 H2 Although cellulose has the same chemical formula as starch, wood is a different animal. http://www.scej.org/ronbun/JCEJpdf/e33p0299.pdf "Rapid microwave pyrolysis has been applied to a relatively large piece of larch (60 mm diameter and 60 mm height), namely a piece of lumber, within a short irradiation time. The yields of charred residue and tar were about 39 to 35%, and 20%, respectively, after 6 to 8 min of microwave irradiation. Based on the dry weight of the wood, an overall yield of 2.4% of levoglucosan was obtained. The specific surface area of the charred residue obtained from the central region of the wood was 550 to 655 m2·g-1. This surface area is much greater than that of char produced by a conventional carbonization process." Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 03:48:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA05589; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 03:43:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 03:43:12 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:47:19 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer (by way of hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"CLTpC.0.DN1.0hz4_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51196 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My connection to Vortex is very flaky for some unknown reason, so rather than keep bothering Jones to forward my posts, I thought I'd mail you direct since you are the thread's originator. Feel free to forward it on to Vortex or not as you think fit. Cheers Frank ============================================================== At 03:12 pm 14-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >At 10:19 PM 7/12/3, Grimer wrote: > >>You mentioned Vortex Aether Believers in one of your posts. >> >>It would be interesting to know how many Vortexians would own up to >>this wicked heresy. ;-) > > >They don't seem to be willing to step forward! Maybe everyone is on >vacation? There certainly has been plenty of discussion of orgone >accumulators and other aether concepts here. > > > >> >>I assume you are not one of them since you refer to the Casimir >>force as an internal attraction rather than an external compression. > > >I try to keep an open mind. I am not a "believer" in an empty vacuum, or >in any specific form of aether. If I hear a concept to which I can relate, >then I try to use it to look for paradoxes or devices of utility. I am >much more engineering oriented than science oriented, but the notion of >"engineering" the vacuum is a bit far out, thus so am I ... in left field. > >As to the Casimir force, it is referred to in the literature as an >attractive force between plates (it certainly isn't a repulsive force >between the plates!) But this is merely the common description of the >effect, not the cause. The cause is typically assumed to be either a QM >surface effect or an effect from some frequencies of the ZPF being excluded >from the cavity between the plates, in which case it is an external >pressure. In either case, a dipole force, or a lowband cutoff on the ZPF, >the force is a 1/d^4 effect, and has been measured as such. The nature of >an "aether effect" would be dependent on the specific aether concept >involved. I suspect, most aether theories are not as well quantified as >the ZPF. At any rate, much of the stuff I have posted has been based on >ZPF ideas, and the plates in that case are externally pushed together. > > > >> >>It would be even more interesting to know how they came to loose their >>faith in the aether's non existences - and whether it was a slow >>realization or a Damascene conversion. > > >My guess is that most folks try to keep an open mind. The only problem with keeping an open mind (or sitting on the fence and trying to have it both ways, internal attraction, external compression)is that until one believes strongly in something, it is very difficult to make any progress. Without faith one can't move mountains. For example, if I hadn't believed, without doubting, that the Beta-aether held materials together and that "bonds" were simply Bernoulli vortex type reductions in external pressure, I would never have discovered the power relations detailed by Professor Martin Chaplin in his pre-eminent site on water. see:- http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html Water is such an important fluid, more important than all the others put together, that one wonders why on earth such intriguing and simple relations were not discovered before. After all, the detailed experimental data has been lying around in reference books for the best part of a century. Of course, if you don't believe in a real substantial particulate external Beta-aether or Beta-atmosphere, then you are not going to follow the logical train of thought which will lead you to dig out such nuggets. If you don't believe that "thar's gold in that them thar hills" then even if you walk over a nugget you probably wont notice it. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 10:04:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA27632; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:02:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:02:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:04:23 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Schnurer , Vortex Subject: Genesys World Energy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7gvbJ2.0.el6.FE35_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51197 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME..... Dear People, Looking for any information about Genesys world energy: Can you please let me know if there is any real world engineering information about this GWE? Is-are there any patent[s] applied for and-or granted? Is-are any of the Principle Investigators or PI, identified and-or are any patents issued to and or applied for by any PI identified? Is-are there any physical engineering information available? You get the idea. Thanks, JH From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 10:06:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA29235; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:04:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:04:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:09:53 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"yVgb61.0.c87.lG35_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51198 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:47 AM 7/15/3, Grimer (by way of hheffner@m wrote: >The only problem with keeping an open mind (or sitting on the fence >and trying to have it both ways, internal attraction, external >compression)is that until one believes strongly in something, it is >very difficult to make any progress. Without faith one can't move >mountains. I think the faith has to be primarily in one's self, but agreed, also in some principle, or at least our ability to apply reason and science to discover the truth. It takes a big ego to do a big job. It takes a bigger ego to continually fail and keep up the good fight, or, ultimately, a Quixotic fanaticism of one form or another to struggle for decades in the face of constant and expected failure. In the case of a finding a clean renewable energy source, the outcome is so huge for humanity, and the potential price of failure to life on earth so intractable, that SOMEBODY has to be devoted to it. The gain/risk ratio is just too big, and faith in that fact alone is enough I think. >For example, if I hadn't believed, without doubting, that >the Beta-aether held materials together and that "bonds" were simply >Bernoulli vortex type reductions in external pressure, I would never >have discovered the power relations detailed by Professor Martin >Chaplin in his pre-eminent site on water. > >see:- http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html That is a very nice set of correlations, but sooner or later someone would do a log log plot? You deserve much credit for being the one there doing the search and finding the correlations. An interesting thing about science, though, is that the truth is out there, we just have to turn over the rocks and then figure things out. > >Water is such an important fluid, more important than all the others >put together, that one wonders why on earth such intriguing and simple >relations were not discovered before. After all, the detailed >experimental data has been lying around in reference books for the >best part of a century. > >Of course, if you don't believe in a real substantial particulate external >Beta-aether or Beta-atmosphere, then you are not going to follow the >logical train of thought which will lead you to dig out such nuggets. There are many examples, though, where the right data was obtained on the wrong but faithfully held premise. Tyco Brahe, for example, devoted a lifetime to astronomical observations without an understanding of the fundamental principles of planetary motion. It took the fresh viewpoint of Kepler's to put it together to go the next step. Even Kepler, though, would have been hard pressed to explain the precession of the perihelion of Mercury. Science marches on. It is the being there making the struggle that counts. I think treating science like a faith based religion has its down side, though we all do it to some extent. We can not fully escape our own bias. One down side to "faith based" science is ignoring what nature is telling us right under our noses. It can ultimately lead to refusing to look into Galeleo's telescope, or to treat dying patients with sound medicine, or to skew or ignore data and facts that disagree with our premise, to assume that conflicting data or facts are simply bad. Ultimately, it can lead to personal attack, persecution, and the end of science. > >If you don't believe that "thar's gold in that them thar hills" then >even if you walk over a nugget you probably wont notice it. Yes, indeed, it's for sure agreed that a prepared mind is a required ingredient for serendipity. And for sure you have to be out doing the hard work of turning over those rocks. It is a good thing though that some people are natural born prospectors and that some people stay home. For some it has been also great that the gold prospectors overlooked high content silver ore in clay right under their noses, on their boots, and contaminating their sluice boxes. Scientific diversity certainly has its place, even the wild-eyed fanatical kind, and I think you may enjoy finding plenty of it here. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 10:27:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA09882; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:25:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:25:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:28:02 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Re post Gensys Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"U0GEw2.0.IQ2.Qa35_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51199 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME..... Can you please let me know if there is any real world engineering information about this GWE? Is-are there any patent[s] applied for and-or granted? Is-are any of the Principle Investigators or PI, identified and-or are any patents issued to and or applied for by any PI identified? Is-are there any physical engineering information available? Thanks, JH From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 10:44:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA20452; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:42:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:42:59 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030715104237.00aace08@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:43:35 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: stevek Subject: Re: Genesys World Energy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"70abh2.0.U_4.Yq35_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51200 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John: This may not be the exact info you are seeking but perhaps it will lead you to some place that will be helpful. http://members.cox.net/john.lichtenstein/ Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 11:03:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA04599; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:00:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:00:52 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:05:58 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Schnurer From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Genesys World Energy Resent-Message-ID: <"RDlg61.0.m71.K545_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51201 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 1:04 PM 7/15/3, John Schnurer wrote: > THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME..... > > Dear People, > > Looking for any information about Genesys world energy: > > Can you please let me know if there is any real world engineering >information about this >GWE? > > Is-are there any patent[s] applied for and-or granted? > Is-are any of the Principle Investigators or PI, identified and-or are >any patents issued to >and or applied for by any PI identified? > Is-are there any physical engineering information available? > > You get the idea. I think you mean the "Genesis World Energy Corp." that Bob Parks implied was a 1st Law of Thermodynmics violator (I don't think he issued a ticket yet!) They claim to have an "Edison Device" that makes hydrogen from water. A Patrick Kelly of United Fuel Cell Technologies, however, claims they have the patent on the Edison device. (What an intersting patent fight THAT would be!) See: . For a good alternative view see: which also has some very funny (and yet sad) info on energy fraud in general. You'll see some familiar names there! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 11:42:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA00531; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:40:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:40:52 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:45:59 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPF basis for Alcuberrie-like drives? Resent-Message-ID: <"HszUH2.0.88.pg45_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51202 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An update on this ZPE thruster method #3 at bottom. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Rotation away from viewer. C1 C2 ------------ ------------ | | P1 ---------- |=========L========| ---------- P2 | | ------------ ------------ Rotation toward viewer = - Shaft and central conductor L - Large toroidal inductor with stimulating power (located at center of gravity) C1,C2 - Large external capacitor plates P1,P2 - Internal plates of polarity opposed to C1, C2 Fig. 2 - Side view of rotating resonant LC circuit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The capacitance of the new 6 plate system is C = 4*a^2 e*e0 /d Using a = 1 m, e= 5, d = 0.01 m C = 4*a^2 e*e0 /d C = 4*(1 m)^2 (5)(e0)/(0.01 m) C = 1.77x10^-8 F Using 100,000 volts charge and Q = C*V we get 1.77x10^-3 coulomb charge, or 1.1x10^16 electrons. Using a surface square of (2x10^-10 m)^2 per atom, we get 2.5x20^19 atoms per m^2. Even at 100,000 volt charge at 1 cm plate sparation we only increase the free electrons by 0.05 percent and the ZPE shielding by less than 0.05 percent. Scratch this specific idea. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 14:48:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA24327; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:46:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:46:03 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030715224438.00689b08@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:44:38 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"f_XvW.0.0y5.RO75_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51203 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:09 am 15-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >At 2:47 AM 7/15/3, Grimer (by way of hheffner@m wrote: > >>The only problem with keeping an open mind (or sitting on the fence >>and trying to have it both ways, internal attraction, external >>compression)is that until one believes strongly in something, it is >>very difficult to make any progress. Without faith one can't move >>mountains. > > >I think the faith has to be primarily in one's self, but agreed, also in >some principle, or at least our ability to apply reason and science to >discover the truth. It takes a big ego to do a big job. It takes a bigger >ego to continually fail and keep up the good fight, or, ultimately, a >Quixotic fanaticism of one form or another to struggle for decades in the >face of constant and expected failure. In the case of a finding a clean >renewable energy source, the outcome is so huge for humanity, and the >potential price of failure to life on earth so intractable, that SOMEBODY >has to be devoted to it. The gain/risk ratio is just too big, and faith in >that fact alone is enough I think. > > > >>For example, if I hadn't believed, without doubting, that >>the Beta-aether held materials together and that "bonds" were simply >>Bernoulli vortex type reductions in external pressure, I would never >>have discovered the power relations detailed by Professor Martin >>Chaplin in his pre-eminent site on water. >> >>see:- http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html > > >That is a very nice set of correlations, That slightly patronising remark makes it sound as though I had merely been idly playing with the data and happened to stumble across it. I wasn't searching for interesting correlations, I was following a logical line of investigation which started decades ago, something you could not possibly appreciate unless you read the original papers in this research. Give me you address in far north and I will post you a photocopy to read it in comfort rather than off a screen. >but sooner or later someone would do a log log plot? I don't believe that for a moment. There is no way that information would have come to the surface without some theory behind it. >You deserve much credit for being the one there doing >the search and finding the correlations. An interesting thing about >science, though, is that the truth is out there, we just have to turn over >the rocks and then figure things out. You have put the cart before the horse. There are billions of rocks. Turning over rocks and trying to figure things out will get you nowhere. You have to figure things out first before you know which rocks to turn over. Science is theory led, not data led. >>Water is such an important fluid, more important than all the others >>put together, that one wonders why on earth such intriguing and simple >>relations were not discovered before. After all, the detailed >>experimental data has been lying around in reference books for the >>best part of a century. >> >>Of course, if you don't believe in a real substantial particulate external >>Beta-aether or Beta-atmosphere, then you are not going to follow the >>logical train of thought which will lead you to dig out such nuggets. >There are many examples, though, where the right data was obtained on the >wrong but faithfully held premise. Tyco Brahe, for example, devoted a >lifetime to astronomical observations without an understanding of the >fundamental principles of planetary motion. It took the fresh viewpoint of >Kepler's to put it together to go the next step. Even Kepler, though, >would have been hard pressed to explain the precession of the perihelion of >Mercury. Science marches on. Marches on? I would rather compare it with the random walk of a drunk. The boundaries constantly widen but there are many retrograde steps. >It is the being there making the struggle that counts. >I think treating science like a faith based religion has its >down side, though we all do it to some extent. I wasn't suggesting that one should treat "science" as a religion. Nothing could be further from my mind. I was saying that one had to have belief in one's ideas in order to progress in their development. If an athlete doesn't have self belief he ain't gonna win many races. >We can not fully escape our >own bias. One down side to "faith based" science is ignoring what nature >is telling us right under our noses. It can ultimately lead to refusing to >look into Galeleo's telescope, >From which I can assume that you will be happy to look through mine ;-) >>If you don't believe that "thar's gold in that them thar hills" then >>even if you walk over a nugget you probably wont notice it. > > >Yes, indeed, it's for sure agreed that a prepared mind is a required >ingredient for serendipity. And for sure you have to be out doing the hard >work of turning over those rocks. It is a good thing though that some >people are natural born prospectors and that some people stay home. For >some it has been also great that the gold prospectors overlooked high >content silver ore in clay right under their noses, on their boots, and >contaminating their sluice boxes. > >Scientific diversity certainly has its place, even the wild-eyed fanatical >kind, and I think you may enjoy finding plenty of it here. Yes, indeed. But I must say that I have found this Vortex discussion group by far the most constructive and interesting of all the groups I have come across. Which reminds me that it's about time I sent Bill a contribution to its running costs. Cheers And thanks for forwarding my post, Horace. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 14:59:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA30062; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:57:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:57:41 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:02:48 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Large Cavity ZPF devices Resent-Message-ID: <"GwDN23.0.ZL7.KZ75_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51204 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the ZPF is ordinary photon radiation, shieldable from very small metal cavities, then it should be possible to shield portions of the ZPF spectrum from large cavities, with sufficient shielding material. We would possibly never observe resulting effects of excluding the low end of the ZPF spectrum unless we were specifically looking for them. The shielding material should be comprised of many layers of very thin dielectric less than a micron thick, varying in thickness from say 10^-7 m thick, about a tenth of a micron, to a micron thick, sandwiched between thin metallic layers. The purpose is to create multiple layers of forbidden zones for ZPF radiation that exclude a desired range of frequencies. The ZPF radiation that gets through will then have to tunnel through many such exclusion barriers. Initially, a cavity could be formed by tightly layering many layers of such foils around a cavity container, a box. To see if specific bands of the ZPF are excluded, a stand alone photographic spectrometer could be used, set on a timer, to see if the H2 spectrum is affected, for example. (See for description of an experiment looking for H2 spectral changes in a very thin ZPF exclusion cavity.) Ultimately, though, the goal would be to surround an oscillating mass inside the cavity and open and close one or more holes (ZPF windows) in the shielding in synchronization, so as to create a net force, and thus an inertial drive. There are a host of possible designs using this principle, but we can for now simply assume a mass m_g that reverses direction while the ZPF windows are open, and thus has higher inertial mass m_g than the inertial mass m_i it has when the window is closed. Further, we can assume it is only the mass of the electrons affected, due to the comparatively long ZPF wavelength shielded. Thus only about 2.7x10^-4 of the mass is involved, assuming roughly equal neutrons and protons. Let us further assume that the mass of those electrons is only reduced by 10 percent, a very optimistic number. We thus have (m_g-m_i)/m_g = 2.7x10^-5. Let us assume we have a 100 kg mass accelerating at an average of 500 g. The net force resulting is then (100 * 500 * 2.7x10^-5 kg-f) = 1.35 kg-f. Lets assume this can be accomplished using 1000 watts, using a 1 Hp electric motor and some control circuitry. This gives us (1000 W)/1.35 kg-f = 740 watts per kg-f. This is a big improvement over the 2.94x10^9 watts/kg-f of the photon rocket, an improvement of about 3.9 million to one. There appears to be much latitude for error in estimation by this approach. One problem with this approach is the question as to whether the shielding would work as hoped. Another is not knowing the true mass reduction of the electrons if the shielding does work. The latitude of error, though large, could be consumed. Also important, but likely a problem that could be overcome, is the problem of how to design the ZPF windows so that they effectively seal when closed, yet maintain high mobility. This problem seems easiest to overcome in that the smaller the window that has any major effect on mass, the smaller the leakage gap of the window seal will be, so it is mostly a matter of proportions used in the design. One possibility for improved performance might be the use of superconductors for shielding layers. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 18:23:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA03715; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:22:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:22:38 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:27:49 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPF basis for Dean-like drives working? Resent-Message-ID: <"c7LxI3.0.xv.TZA5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51206 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A large thickness piezoelectric device might be self-inertial-mass-reducing upon compression due to increased ZPF exclusion. A fairly simple device could be made to test this hypothesis. A large piezo could be placed on a fairly long but counter-balanced arm. A high voltage brush set could be used to apply high voltage to contract the piezo at one portion of its rotation. The rotating device inside an enclosure could be hung from the end of a (horizontally rotating) torsion pendulum with power supplied to the arm of the pendulum via small lose wires. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 18:23:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA03701; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:22:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:22:37 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:27:46 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Resent-Message-ID: <"D18A21.0.kv.SZA5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51205 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A forbidden zone of 10^7 m will only exclude energy levels about twice that wavelength, or E = h c /lambda = h c /(2x10^-7 m) = 6.2 eV. More than that would probably be useful for reducing electron mass, so various gaps less than 10^7 m should also be used. Sounds like a need to engineer a very special material. Possibly conductive nanofibers imbedded in a dielectric gel or polymer to make a very thin flexible wrap that can be used to wrap cavities or bonded into plys that can be used to make solid components. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 20:13:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA23667; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:12:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:12:06 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:11:08 +1000 From: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: Organization: Improving MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Resent-Message-ID: <"hpwhP3.0.in5.5AC5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51207 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:27:46 -0800: Hi, Horace I think this is a very interesting notion. For "holes" one might make use of lattice dislocations, which would create ~3-10 Angstrom sized gaps. An alloy made from both very small and very large atoms might work. When I read your first post, I immediately thought of the multilayered zinc magnesium material that Art Bell(?) received that was ostensibly from a UFO. >A forbidden zone of 10^7 m will only exclude energy levels about twice that >wavelength, or E = h c /lambda = h c /(2x10^-7 m) = 6.2 eV. More than that >would probably be useful for reducing electron mass, so various gaps less >than 10^7 m should also be used. Sounds like a need to engineer a very >special material. Possibly conductive nanofibers imbedded in a dielectric >gel or polymer to make a very thin flexible wrap that can be used to wrap >cavities or bonded into plys that can be used to make solid components. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 23:27:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA10196; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:26:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:26:49 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030714210832.11367.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030714210832.11367.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:25:35 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"qATVe1.0.9V2.f0F5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51208 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >infinite energy? published magazine or ezine? > >and how does the web of life violate 2nd law? By taking diffuse sunlight and turning it into biological material and by using the sexual fusion process to correct the errors in the DNA which result from aging. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 23:27:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA10238; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:26:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:26:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:25:35 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"a5p2F1.0.tV2.i0F5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51209 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner Posted; > This gives us (1000 W)/1.35 >kg-f = 740 watts per kg-f. This is a big improvement over the 2.94x10^9 >watts/kg-f of the photon rocket, an improvement of about 3.9 million to >one. There appears to be much latitude for error in estimation by this >approach. > Interesting post Horace, How does that compare with a chemical rocket? Were can I read about the nature of the ZPF? Later Robin Von Spaarandonk noted; When I read your first post, I immediately thought of the multilayered zinc magnesium material that Art Bell(?) received that was ostensibly from a UFO. As I recall, the material also contained barium too. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 15 23:28:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA10490; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:27:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:27:39 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:26:56 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: the nature of life Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"bd35c.0.qZ2.R1F5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51210 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have been favored by a reply from the mights Park. I was so annoyed by the article that Parksie posted about our (fundamentalist Christians) wanting to remove evolution from biology texts, that I send him an email. I said that we don't want to remove evolution from the biology texts, we just want to include intelligent design along with it. He replied that anyone who believes that there is a man with a white beard who is modifying DNA is terminally stupid. That is exactly what I believe. I replied that the web of life is a system which defies the second law of thermodynamics by concentrating diffuse energy into biological materials and by correcting the effects of aging by the sexual fusion process. He ignored me. So Vortexians, what do you say? Does the web of live defy the second law? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 00:29:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA32227; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:28:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:28:13 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030716082653.00692a6c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:26:53 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: the nature of life Resent-Message-ID: <"eIn8x3.0.Tt7.CwF5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51211 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:26 am 16-07-03 -0500, you wrote: >I have been favored by a reply from the mights Park. > >I was so annoyed by the article that Parksie posted about our >(fundamentalist Christians) wanting to remove evolution from biology >texts, that I send him an email. I said that we don't want to remove >evolution from the biology texts, we just want to include intelligent >design along with it. He replied that anyone who believes that there >is a man with a white beard who is modifying DNA is terminally >stupid. That is exactly what I believe. I replied that the web of >life is a system which defies the second law of thermodynamics by >concentrating diffuse energy into biological materials and by >correcting the effects of aging by the sexual fusion process. > >He ignored me. > >So Vortexians, what do you say? Does the web of live defy the second law? > I don't believe in "Time's arrow" (see my piece in the Journal of Theoretics) so it follows that I don't believe in the second law. I believe in G_d however. though not as a "man with a white beard". But as a Jew I don't suppose you believe in that, either. Since G_d is existence personified (I AM WHO AM), without his sustaining hand things would simply cease to be, existence being a bit like the binary system, the fundamental property of things which is irreducible to anything simpler. I have used the underscore when talking about G_d out of respect for Jewish sensitivities. I think it is a rather commendable practice which Christians would do well to adopt themselves. As for Parkie, "The fool in his heart says there is no G_d". Nuff said. ;-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 01:12:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA13611; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:12:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:12:04 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:17:14 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Resent-Message-ID: <"RKb_w2.0.XK3.KZG5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51212 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:11 PM 7/16/3, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:27:46 -0800: >Hi, > >Horace I think this is a very interesting notion. For "holes" one might >make use of lattice dislocations, which would create ~3-10 Angstrom sized >gaps. An alloy made from both very small and very large atoms might work. > >When I read your first post, I immediately thought of the multilayered >zinc magnesium material that Art Bell(?) received that was ostensibly from >a UFO. Gee, now you mention it, thin multi-layer metals might in fact be very effective if one were superconducting and the other not. Interesting that bismuth is not listed in the 74th Edition of the CRC Handbook as a superconductor unless it is either a thin film or under pressure of 25 kbar or more. However, Bi has a compartively high Tk (6.17 - 2.6 K in thin layer, 3.9 K or more under pressure) compared to Zn which has Tk of 0.85 K. > >>A forbidden zone of 10^7 m will only exclude energy levels about twice that >>wavelength, or E = h c /lambda = h c /(2x10^-7 m) = 6.2 eV. More than that >>would probably be useful for reducing electron mass, so various gaps less >>than 10^7 m should also be used. Sounds like a need to engineer a very >>special material. Possibly conductive nanofibers imbedded in a dielectric >>gel or polymer to make a very thin flexible wrap that can be used to wrap >>cavities or bonded into plys that can be used to make solid components. >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner >> > >Regards, > >R. van Spaandonk > >When you are counting the dead, remember who voted >for the man that made it all possible. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 01:22:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA17570; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:22:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:22:12 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:27:21 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Resent-Message-ID: <"7NcD61.0.SI4.qiG5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51213 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:25 AM 7/16/3, thomas malloy wrote: >Horace Heffner Posted; > >> This gives us (1000 W)/1.35 >>kg-f = 740 watts per kg-f. This is a big improvement over the 2.94x10^9 >>watts/kg-f of the photon rocket, an improvement of about 3.9 million to >>one. There appears to be much latitude for error in estimation by this >>approach. >> > >Interesting post Horace, How does that compare with a chemical rocket? Chmical rockets have to carry thier own reaction masses. They can not be entirely solar or nuclear driven, and have no possibility of ever surpassing light speed (see Paul Hill's *Unconventional Flying Objects*)> > >Were can I read about the nature of the ZPF? Go to the publications section at . > >Later Robin Von Spaarandonk noted; > >When I read your first post, I immediately thought of the >multilayered zinc magnesium material that Art Bell(?) received that >was ostensibly from a UFO. > >As I recall, the material also contained barium too. Barium, like Bi, is not super-conductor unless under pressure of 55 kbar or more, and then has a Tc of 1-1.8 K. Dang! That's it! The window to the cavity can be controlled by flexing or compressing the layered material, thus rapidly converting the Ba or Bi from superconducting to non-superconducting. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 01:56:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA27927; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:55:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:55:58 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 01:01:08 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"MiQuj2.0.Cq6.UCH5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51214 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:44 PM 7/15/3, Grimer wrote: >At 09:09 am 15-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >>At 2:47 AM 7/15/3, Grimer (by way of hheffner@m wrote: [snip] >>>see:- http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html >> >> >>That is a very nice set of correlations, > > >That slightly patronising remark makes it sound as though I had merely >been idly playing with the data and happened to stumble across it. There was no theory discussed on the above URL. Only the correlations were presented. >I >wasn't searching for interesting correlations, I was following a logical >line of investigation which started decades ago, something you could >not possibly appreciate unless you read the original papers in this >research. Is there a web site that has the research and the theory? >Give me you address in far north and I will post you a >photocopy to read it in comfort rather than off a screen. That is a very good offer. I assume it is all public domain information? > > >>but sooner or later someone would do a log log plot? > > >I don't believe that for a moment. There is no way that information >would have come to the surface without some theory behind it. I am not so sure. I've seen and/or done a lot of regression on complex things prior to writing simulations - in order to make computation time feasible. The person who would do such a thing, however, would likely be an engineer or operations research person, and possibly not likely to make any inferences but merely be happy to get a good fit. > > >>You deserve much credit for being the one there doing >>the search and finding the correlations. An interesting thing about >>science, though, is that the truth is out there, we just have to turn over >>the rocks and then figure things out. > > >You have put the cart before the horse. There are billions of rocks. Turning >over rocks and trying to figure things out will get you nowhere. You have to >figure things out first before you know which rocks to turn over. Science >is theory led, not data led. I think it works both ways. Theory to predict future experimental results, data anomalies that need new theory or theory modifications in order to explain. [snip] >> Science marches on. > >Marches on? I would rather compare it with the random walk of a drunk. >The boundaries constantly widen but there are many retrograde steps. So true. And the variance seems to not fit the sqrt(n) model very well, but rather jumps in drunken fits and starts throughout history. Things seem to be changing these days though, as the entire world is becoming involved in the enterprise. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 02:38:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA09783; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 02:37:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 02:37:48 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030716103628.0069bdd8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:36:28 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Gyro paradox Resent-Message-ID: <"1KtBF.0.nO2.ipH5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51215 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:01 am 16-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >At 2:44 PM 7/15/3, Grimer wrote: >>At 09:09 am 15-07-03 -0800, you wrote: >>>At 2:47 AM 7/15/3, Grimer (by way of hheffner@m wrote: >[snip] >>>>see:- http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html >>> >>> >>>That is a very nice set of correlations, >> >> >>That slightly patronising remark makes it sound as though I had merely >>been idly playing with the data and happened to stumble across it. > > >There was no theory discussed on the above URL. >Only the correlations were presented. Quite so. That is because it was Chaplin's site and one couldn't expect him to start indulging in long speculative, albeit logical, arguments. The results were sufficiently startling in view of the integral powers and lack of arbitrary constants, to stand on their own. >>I wasn't searching for interesting correlations, I was following a logical >>line of investigation which started decades ago, something you could >>not possibly appreciate unless you read the original papers in this >>research. >Is there a web site that has the research and the theory? >>Give me you address in far north and I will post you a >>photocopy to read it in comfort rather than off a screen. >That is a very good offer. I assume it is all public domain information? It certainly is. It comprises a paper in a International Conference on Materials, a paper in Speculations in Science and Technology (the very first paper they chose to publish which must be some kind of a recommendation) and the final chapter in a book on Developments in Concrete Technology. None of these references is easy to get hold of which is why I made my offer. In fact one of them (the first issue of Speculations in Science and Technology) even disappeared from the Science Section of the British Library when it was housed in Chancery Lane. I suspect that someone pinched it though I don't suppose it was Parkie or the Men in Black. ;-) >>>but sooner or later someone would do a log log plot? >> >> >>I don't believe that for a moment. There is no way that information >>would have come to the surface without some theory behind it. > > >I am not so sure. I've seen and/or done a lot of regression on complex >things prior to writing simulations - in order to make computation time >feasible. The person who would do such a thing, however, would likely be >an engineer or operations research person, and possibly not likely to make >any inferences but merely be happy to get a good fit. We will have to agree to differ on that since neither of us can prove the point one way or another. :-) >>>You deserve much credit for being the one there doing >>>the search and finding the correlations. An interesting thing about >>>science, though, is that the truth is out there, we just have to turn over >>>the rocks and then figure things out. >> >> >>You have put the cart before the horse. There are billions of rocks. Turning >>over rocks and trying to figure things out will get you nowhere. You have to >>figure things out first before you know which rocks to turn over. Science >>is theory led, not data led. > > >I think it works both ways. Theory to predict future experimental results, >data anomalies that need new theory or theory modifications in order to >explain. No doubt there are instances where horses push carts instead of pulling them so I settle for that 8-) >[snip] >>> Science marches on. >> >>Marches on? I would rather compare it with the random walk of a drunk. >>The boundaries constantly widen but there are many retrograde steps. > > >So true. And the variance seems to not fit the sqrt(n) model very well, >but rather jumps in drunken fits and starts throughout history. Things >seem to be changing these days though, as the entire world is becoming >involved in the enterprise. Yep. Let's hope that Vortex proves itself a pioneer in that respect. Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 06:29:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA00567; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 06:28:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 06:28:13 -0700 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3F1543A6.7F3B5500@centurytel.net> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:23:02 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the nature of life References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="yl" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="yl" Resent-Message-ID: <"sn7Gb3.0.k8.iBL5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51216 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas Malloy wrote: [Parks] replied that anyone who believes that there is a man with a white beard who is modifying DNA is terminally stupid. That is exactly what I believe. I replied that the web of life is a system which defies the second law of thermodynamics by concentrating diffuse energy into biological materials and by correcting the effects of aging by the sexual fusion process. He ignored me. So Vortexians, what do you say? Does the web of live defy the second law? Hi All, "defy" is the wrong word. A model should be judged on whether or not it "works," that is, produces useful design equations or recipes for a machine, a process, a treatment, etc. Thus, models which produce linear equations which will fit the data over some range are good. On the other hand, such models are the real killers (literally) because they ignore interactions such as the effect of taking Medicine A along with Medicine B being exactly opposite to the effect of taking Medicine A alone. The Carnot model produces simple design equations that are useful for making steam engines. But Democritus had it right: "All that exists are atoms [not-cuttable things] and the void. Everything else is SPECULATION [and design equations]." There are other models for the formation of DNA which encompass a wider range of data. For a good discussion of self-organizing systems, please see "Sync" by Steven Strogatz. Also see "The Big Bang Never Happened" by Eric J. Lerner who discusses the plasma models of Alfven and Peratt. Plasma interactions can explain the diversification of the universe in "defiance" of the Second Law. Both these books are available at Amazon.com. On page 302, Lerner writes: "... amino acids ... naturally form when when certain chemical mixtures are exposed to concentrated energy, as in a lightning flash. These molecules form because they are the most efficient at rapidly capturing any energy made briefly available. The same helical forms so efficient at capturing energy in a plasma are also most effective for molecules such as ... DNA and RNA. ... Chemical evolution can build increasingly complex molecules and systems ... that gradually acquire more accuracy in reproducing themselves and thus become living organisms." Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 07:11:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA24399; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:10:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:10:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20030716141045.79857.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:10:45 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPE-Casimir Inertial Drive To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"VHjJY1.0.9z5.dpL5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51217 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: but all that takes energy, and thus increases entropy even more somewhere. no violation there. entropy is similar to energy in that while you cant destroy it (in the big picture) you can move it around. no violation there. --- thomas malloy wrote: > >infinite energy? published magazine or ezine? > > > >and how does the web of life violate 2nd law? > > By taking diffuse sunlight and turning it into > biological material > and by using the sexual fusion process to correct > the errors in the > DNA which result from aging. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 07:15:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA25627; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:14:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:14:14 -0700 Message-ID: <20030716141407.51681.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:14:07 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: the nature of life To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"NbgC1.0.BG6.rsL5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51218 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i already posted that one. as too intelligent design being taught in public schools, only if you also require students to learn about all other religious beliefs equally. science is not a religous belief, id IS. therefore, as there can be no state religion, if you are too teach religion, you must do so AS religion, and not a science, and you must treat all religions equally. would you be in favor of a single class that takes the topic of where we come from and looks at it from all known viewpoints, including all religions out there, and treats all of them equally? alex (who works for a school district, and thus has had this arguement more times that he can count.) --- thomas malloy wrote: > I have been favored by a reply from the mights > Park. > > I was so annoyed by the article that Parksie posted > about our > (fundamentalist Christians) wanting to remove > evolution from biology > texts, that I send him an email. I said that we > don't want to remove > evolution from the biology texts, we just want to > include intelligent > design along with it. He replied that anyone who > believes that there > is a man with a white beard who is modifying DNA is > terminally > stupid. That is exactly what I believe. I replied > that the web of > life is a system which defies the second law of > thermodynamics by > concentrating diffuse energy into biological > materials and by > correcting the effects of aging by the sexual fusion > process. > > He ignored me. > > So Vortexians, what do you say? Does the web of live > defy the second law? > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 09:23:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA14185; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:23:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:23:01 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716122201.027310a0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:23:04 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New items at ICCF10.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"mxTc81.0.YT3.blN5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51219 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See new items: * Short Course on LENR * Poster http://iccf10.org/ - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 10:00:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA02342; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:59:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:59:30 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: LENR commercial products for sale Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:57:13 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20030715224438.00689b08@pop.freeserve.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"qJ5ow1.0.Va.oHO5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51220 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Vorts! I haven't seen anything advertised for sale, delivery on payment received sort of thing, that advertises itself as being LENR/Cold-fusion or any such nomenclature. Or is there? Have i missed something? I may have missed this somewhere, and am curious to know if I have: Can we just whip out the old checkbook and get our new shiny LENR genset somewhere, yet? I know promises have been made, ruminations and rumour spouted everywhere, BLP was the latest thing I know of, but I haven't seen any adverts yet, and am asking if anyone else has seen anything advertised as being a consumer or industrial model of cold-fusion or Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (or under a different name for this phenomena...) I don't mean 'replication study kits', or, "purchase now and we'll deliver once production starts", or any other kind of research stuff: - I mean the gilt-edged real thing commercial product - manufactured ready to be purchased, plugged in, switch turned on, and put-it-to work type units. Please let me know if you have seen such a beast. cheers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 10:01:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA02601; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:00:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:00:02 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: "Mitch Battros" Cc: "Vortex-L" Subject: wind and earthquakes: correlated? Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:57:18 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C34BF5.FD754E60" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F135202.E585BB4B@earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"JQN_v2.0.Ye.IIO5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51221 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C34BF5.FD754E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Mitch: Today while observing tremendous winds here in Central Java, I had a curious thought you may have addressed already: Is high wind a known to be an occasional precursor to earthquakes? I am suspicious there may be an electrostatic link there, that either eminent quakes may be preceded by winds as shifting charge densities prior to the main crust movements induce powerful barometric differentials, resulting in wind systems which would be anomalous to the season/climate. Just a thought, and the inverse may hold as well: high winds might induce subterranean currents which might exert enough stress to trigger quakes when the fault zones have enough energy strain built up. A key point to all this is that the epicenter itself may not experience the winds, being either an anomalously low or high pressure site, whereas areas neighboring the epicenter would probably experience the winds arising from the barometric anomaly. Further, If this is in any way borne out by weather correlations, I would imagine there are many exceptions to this where normal weather patterns mask anomalous wind. There are many triggers for earthquakes I imagine, and this would only fit a subset of seismic activity. The wind was absurd today, and as I gazed across to the dormant volcano across the fields, I had this thought. If you get the time to reply,,,, Regards, Director, Ocean Talent Corporation http://www.ocean-talent.com/ http://www.explorecraft.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C34BF5.FD754E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=20 Mitch:
 
<I=20 am cross-posting this to the Vortex-L mailing list,
 as there may be some folks there = interested
 in this subject.>
 
Today while observing tremendous = winds here in=20 Central Java,
 I had a curious thought you may have addressed=20 already:
 
Is high wind a known to be an = occasional=20 precursor to earthquakes?
 
I am suspicious there may be = an=20 electrostatic link there,
 that either eminent quakes = may be preceded=20 by winds
 as shifting charge densities prior to the main crust=20 movements
 induce powerful barometric differentials, resulting in = wind=20 systems
 which would be anomalous to the = season/climate.
 
Just a=20 thought,
 and the inverse may hold as well:
 high winds might induce subterranean currents which=20 might
 exert enough stress to trigger quakes when the fault=20 zones
 have enough energy strain built up.
 
A key point to all this is that the epicenter itself may = not=20 experience the winds,
 being either an anomalously low or high pressure=20 site,
 whereas areas neighboring the epicenter would probably = experience=20 the winds
 arising from the barometric anomaly.
 
Further, If this is in any way borne out by weather=20 correlations,
 I would imagine there are many exceptions to=20 this
 where normal weather patterns mask anomalous=20 wind.
There=20 are many triggers for earthquakes I imagine,
 and this would only fit a subset of seismic=20 activity.
 
<I=20 don't really like to consider it too seriously,
 =20 but the coming nearness of Mars will be an = interesting
 =20 moment to take note of, regarding crustal dynamics.
 =20 Nothing earth-shaking should occur, but then again we could be=20 surprised>
 
The=20 wind was absurd today,
 and as I gazed across to the dormant=20 volcano
 across the fields, I had this = thought.
 
If you=20 get the time to reply,,,,
 

Regards,
 Director, Ocean Talent = Corporation
 http://www.ocean-talent.com/
 http://www.explorecraft.com/
 =20

 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C34BF5.FD754E60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 10:52:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA01886; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:51:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:51:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3F159108.4070507@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:53:12 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: LENR commercial products for sale References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kV1_N.0.IT.n2P5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51222 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: explorecraft wrote: >Hey Vorts! > >I haven't seen anything advertised for sale, > delivery on payment received sort of thing, > that advertises itself as being > LENR/Cold-fusion or any such nomenclature. > Or is there? > Of course there is! See: http://lenr-canr.org/Features.htm#CDROM Books, videos, CDs, caps, mugs . . . Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 10:54:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA02542; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:52:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:52:57 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716135223.0270ac90@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:52:58 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ZuIbY3.0.dd.u3P5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51223 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nifty! See: http://www.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/projects/MEDIA/xv/oc.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 11:08:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA12809; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:06:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:06:50 -0700 Message-ID: <20030716180645.20489.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:06:45 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716135223.0270ac90@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"lndlO3.0.s73.vGP5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51224 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: its not really a cloak of invisibility, as it only works if you get the person to look through a lense set up for a system. its great for controlled disappearance, for expample, a doctors hands during surgery, but its not a way to make yourself invisible. but it IS nifty. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Nifty! See: > > http://www.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/projects/MEDIA/xv/oc.html > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 11:23:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA21383; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:21:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:21:45 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716141551.02732fb8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:21:42 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility In-Reply-To: <20030716180645.20489.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716135223.0270ac90@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"S0tvY2.0.1E5.vUP5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51225 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: alexander hollins wrote: >its not really a cloak of invisibility, as it only >works if you get the person to look through a lense >set up for a system. But in the distant future systems like this probably will evolve into cloaks of invisibility. This is the primitive forerunner of future technology. A real cloak will require computer power approximately equal to 200 2 GHz Pentiums. See: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.08/pwr_invisible.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 12:42:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA00586; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:40:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:40:16 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:00:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716141551.02732fb8@pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"0HUcO.0.49.VeQ5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51226 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jed. I like a paper that has ref's like this. "M. Shiro, Ghost in the Shell, Kodansya, 1991" Otaku scientists unite! No doubt their next project will be a Mecha suit. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 2:22 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility alexander hollins wrote: >its not really a cloak of invisibility, as it only >works if you get the person to look through a lense >set up for a system. But in the distant future systems like this probably will evolve into cloaks of invisibility. This is the primitive forerunner of future technology. A real cloak will require computer power approximately equal to 200 2 GHz Pentiums. See: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.08/pwr_invisible.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 13:00:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA10132; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:58:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:58:53 -0700 Message-ID: <20030716195850.69166.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:58:50 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716141551.02732fb8@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"WAYtv.0.EU2.yvQ5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51227 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: similar systems yes. but this system doesnt actually project anything onto teh cloak. its bluescreen (or greenscreen, whichever you prefer) tech where you have to look at a display to see it. theres a video there somewhere where the camara pans from around the dude to the front, you cant see any see through, and then it cuts in the processed imagery. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > alexander hollins wrote: > > >its not really a cloak of invisibility, as it only > >works if you get the person to look through a lense > >set up for a system. > > But in the distant future systems like this probably > will evolve into > cloaks of invisibility. This is the primitive > forerunner of future > technology. A real cloak will require computer power > approximately equal to > 200 2 GHz Pentiums. See: > > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.08/pwr_invisible.html > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 13:55:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA10538; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:53:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:53:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3F15BBB7.3030006@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:55:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716135223.0270ac90@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030716141551.02732fb8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RtPDk1.0.Ua2.ZjR5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51228 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > But in the distant future systems like this probably will evolve into > cloaks of invisibility. This is the primitive forerunner of future > technology. A real cloak will require computer power approximately > equal to 200 2 GHz Pentiums. SOTA is, what about 5 GHz? Applying Moore's law means Potter's cloak will be available around 2011 CE. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 14:18:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA22602; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:17:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:17:10 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716170640.02731bf8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:16:59 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility In-Reply-To: <3F15BBB7.3030006@rtpatlanta.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716135223.0270ac90@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030716141551.02732fb8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"haVxH2.0.4X5.M3S5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51229 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>But in the distant future systems like this probably will evolve into >>cloaks of invisibility. . . . > >SOTA is, what about 5 GHz? Applying Moore's law means Potter's cloak will >be available around 2011 CE. Is is really 5 GHz? I thought it was 3.2 GHz. Okay, the not so distant future. However, there are many other technical problems to overcome. Also I doubt that there will ever be a 400 GHz processor. It seems like a nutty way to stretch the technology. I expect to see 200 itty-bitty 2 GHz processors on one chip cooperating with one another. Of course that will call for an enormous breakthrough in software since today we can seldom persuade two computers to cooperate. I think a shift to MPP (massively parallel processor) architecture is inevitable. When a major change in architecture occurs, large, established, leading companies often stumble. They are sometimes wiped out. The Pennsylvania Railroad and DEC are good examples. The transition will be a major threat to Microsoft, which is another reason I look forward to it, to be honest. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 14:43:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA05069; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:42:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:42:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3F15C732.2000403@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:44:18 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Genuine cloak of invisibility References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716135223.0270ac90@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030716141551.02732fb8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030716170640.02731bf8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rrDwJ2.0.7F1.RRS5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51230 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Is is really 5 GHz? I thought it was 3.2 GHz. You're probably right. I follow the speedhounds on alt.sci.seti who build dedicated machines to process work units and that's where I recalled the figure. But, these folks are notorious overclockers. > Okay, the not so distant future. However, there are many other > technical problems to overcome. Also I doubt that there will ever be a > 400 GHz processor. It seems like a nutty way to stretch the > technology. I expect to see 200 itty-bitty 2 GHz processors on one > chip cooperating with one another. Of course that will call for an > enormous breakthrough in software since today we can seldom persuade > two computers to cooperate. Yeah, I thought the same thing at one time. Then I see breakthroughs which double the speed again, like the IBM double-gate transistors announced last year. > I think a shift to MPP (massively parallel processor) architecture is > inevitable. When a major change in architecture occurs, large, > established, leading companies often stumble. They are sometimes wiped > out. The Pennsylvania Railroad and DEC are good examples. The > transition will be a major threat to Microsoft, which is another > reason I look forward to it, to be honest. Speaking of threats to MS, wasn't there an announcement recently about a Linux Open Office product? It's supposed to be compatible with MS Office files? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 15:17:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA25263; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:16:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:16:13 -0700 Message-ID: <00d501c34be7$70d14f80$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Proton trapping and water-fuel Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:13:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D0_01C34BAC.C3E308C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"yrCi03.0.fA6.jwS5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51231 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D0_01C34BAC.C3E308C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are some more thoughts around the periphery of an ongoing effort to = discover if and why water, or water-ice - when moderately pre-treated in = an electric field, can develop enough energy content to be useful as a = transportation fuel or non-diluting fuel additive. Many structures that are not normally considered "fuel" would be = explosive enough to be used as a kind of non-combustible propellant if = such were practical. Overcharged capacitors are an example - they will = explode with quite a pop. Ceramic and glass have so much ingrained = stress that they will fracture explosively. What about a fuel or fuel = additive that is, in effect, a stressed-capacitor that totally gasifies = when triggered? Ice, the solid phase of water, itself becomes explosive enough to create = soft x-rays when triggered by pressure, and can be considered many times = more explosive than gasoline, pound for pound, in certain very narrow = circumstances. The threshold regime for ice explosiveness is known, and = is within the range of mechanical implementation. See "Explosive Ice = Instability," E. G. Fateev http://www.udman.ru/sotrud/fat/Stat/432.pdf In addition, any strong acid can be considered similar to an overcharged = capacitor. The dielectric, of course is the water, or in this case, the = ice. IOW if water, especially water-ice can achieve a pH of less than 2 = without much energy input, there is the possibility that it could be = used as a fuel, even though it is seemingly fully oxidized and = non-combustible. But is there any candidate acid that can be produced = cheaply and directly from only water and air? Nitric acid comes to mind, = and of course it has been used in rocket fuel for over half a century. There is another possibility for a less toxic quasi-acid that can only = be realized in conjunction with the phase-change of water into ice. It = all begins with proton trapping. The need to recognize *proton trapping* as a basic characteristic of ice = has been confirmed by the recent studies of Cowin: Cowin, J. P.; = Tsekouras, A. A.; Iedema, M. J.; Wu, K. Ellison, G. B. Nature 1999, 398, = 405. In experiments at PNL, it was discovered that there was little if no = proton movement in ice below 190K http://www.pnl.gov/energyscience/09-99/art2.htm The PNNL experiments detected no voltage change due to hydronium = movement between 33 K and 190 K. These observations demonstrate that = temperature plays a large role in proton transport, and suggests that = much work still needs to be done in refining the physical model of water = ice. The research is particularly pertinent to environmental and = biological scientists who are deeply interested in proton movement in = crystalline water. Of course, 190k might be a little impractical in an = auto, but what about other regimes? There seems to be an inherent "proto-solid" phase of water, which is = present in even liquid water, and takes the form of an icosahedral = structure of 280 H2O molecules linked by hydrogen bonds, which = coincidentally is just the right size to "capture" a hydrated electron. = A good picture, and a compelling explanation of this icosahedral = structure is available on Martin Chaplin's site at: http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html It is even possible that one of the reasons that hydrated electrons = "appear" to have such a short lifetime is that they are usually captured = by this proto-solid structure because of the similarity in its = dimensions to the electron de Broglie wavelength. The hydrated electron, = then could transform into what can be called a large water negative ion = with a molecular weight over 5000 and stay that way for some extended = time, if there was a balancing, immobile, positive charge.=20 Is it possible that these large negative ions will serve to balance the = charges involved when protons are trapped in ice, maybe near the surface = of the same icosahedron that captures the hydrated electron? If so, = water-ice might be converted by pretreatment into a fuel or fuel = additive by applying an electric field just as phase change is = occurring. In effect, water is transformed into an acid clathrate. In = effect, we have an acid clathrate which is also a stressed-capacitor. Jones BTW , even if this speculation were true, one could not expect fully = pretreated water-fuel to have more than one positive and one negative = charge carrier per about ~300 water molecules - plus whatever entrained = air is available. This would mean that it is below but near the minimum = dilution for proton combustion (~1:200) and would probably need some = additional fuel in order to trigger the explosion, either from a = hydrocarbon, or preferably from hydrogen which manufactured in situ, = parasitically using a fair proportion of the engines total output. But who cares much if you need a 200 hp water-fueled engine to get the = same performance as 100 hp gasoline engine, because the fuel is = essentially free and most importantly, non-polluting. ------=_NextPart_000_00D0_01C34BAC.C3E308C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here are some more thoughts around the periphery of an ongoing = effort to=20 discover if and why water, or water-ice - when moderately = pre-treated in an=20 electric field, can develop enough energy content to be useful = as a=20 transportation fuel or non-diluting fuel additive.
 
Many structures that are not normally considered "fuel" would be = explosive=20 enough to be used as a kind of non-combustible propellant if such were=20 practical. Overcharged capacitors are an example - they will explode = with quite=20 a pop. Ceramic and glass have so much ingrained stress that they will = fracture=20 explosively. What about a fuel or fuel additive that is, in effect, a=20 stressed-capacitor that totally gasifies when triggered?
 
Ice, the solid phase of water, itself becomes explosive enough = to=20 create soft x-rays when triggered by pressure, and can be = considered many times more explosive than gasoline, pound for=20 pound, in certain very narrow circumstances. The threshold = regime for=20 ice explosiveness is known, and is within the range of mechanical=20 implementation. See "Explosive Ice Instability,"  E. G. = Fateev
http://www.udman.ru/= sotrud/fat/Stat/432.pdf
 
In addition, any strong acid can be considered similar to an = overcharged=20 capacitor. The dielectric, of course is the water, or in this case, the = ice. IOW=20 if water, especially water-ice can achieve a pH of less than 2 = without much=20 energy input, there is the possibility that it could be used as a fuel, = even=20 though it is seemingly fully oxidized and non-combustible. But is there = any=20 candidate acid that can be produced cheaply and directly from only water = and=20 air? Nitric acid comes to mind, and of course it has been used in rocket = fuel=20 for over half a century.
 
There is another possibility for a less toxic quasi-acid that can = only be=20 realized in conjunction with the phase-change of water into ice. It all = begins=20 with proton trapping.
 
The need to recognize *proton trapping* as a basic characteristic = of ice=20 has been confirmed by the recent studies of Cowin:  Cowin, J. P.;=20 Tsekouras, A. A.; Iedema, M. J.; Wu, K. Ellison, G. B. Nature 1999, 398, = 405.
 
In experiments at PNL, it was discovered that there was little if = no proton=20 movement in ice below 190K
 
http://www.pnl.g= ov/energyscience/09-99/art2.htm
 
The PNNL experiments detected no voltage change due to hydronium = movement=20 between 33 K and 190 K. These observations demonstrate that temperature = plays a=20 large role in proton transport, and suggests that much work still needs = to be=20 done in refining the physical model of water ice. The research is = particularly=20 pertinent to environmental and biological scientists who are deeply = interested=20 in proton movement in crystalline water. Of course, 190k might be a = little=20 impractical in an auto, but what about other regimes?
 
There seems to be an inherent "proto-solid" phase of = water, which=20 is present in even liquid water, and takes the form of an icosahedral = structure=20 of 280 H2O molecules linked by hydrogen bonds, which coincidentally is = just the=20 right size to "capture" a hydrated electron. A good picture, and a = compelling=20 explanation of this icosahedral structure is available on Martin = Chaplin's site=20 at:
http://www.sbu.ac.uk/wa= ter/clusters.html
 
It is even possible that one of the reasons that hydrated electrons = "appear" to have such a short lifetime is that they are usually = captured by=20 this proto-solid structure because of the similarity in its = dimensions to=20 the electron de Broglie wavelength. The hydrated electron, then could = transform=20 into what can be called a large water negative ion with a = molecular=20 weight over 5000 and stay that way for some extended time, if there was = a=20 balancing, immobile, positive charge.
 
Is it possible that these large negative ions will serve to balance = the=20 charges involved when protons are trapped in ice, maybe near the = surface of=20 the same icosahedron that captures the hydrated electron?  If=20 so, water-ice might be converted by pretreatment into a fuel = or fuel=20 additive by applying an electric field just as phase change is = occurring. In=20 effect, water is transformed into an acid clathrate. In effect, we=20 have an acid clathrate which is also a stressed-capacitor.
 
Jones
 
 
BTW , even if this speculation were true, one could not expect = fully=20 pretreated water-fuel to have more than one positive and one=20 negative charge carrier per about ~300 water molecules - plus = whatever=20 entrained air is available. This would mean that it is below but near = the=20 minimum dilution for proton combustion (~1:200) and would probably=20 need some additional fuel in order to trigger the explosion, = either=20 from a hydrocarbon, or preferably from hydrogen which manufactured in = situ,=20 parasitically using a fair proportion of the engines total output.
 
But who cares much if you need a 200 hp water-fueled engine to get = the same=20 performance as 100 hp gasoline engine, because the fuel is essentially = free and=20 most importantly, non-polluting.
------=_NextPart_000_00D0_01C34BAC.C3E308C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 16 18:56:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA07131; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:55:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:55:11 -0700 From: "Michael Randall" To: Subject: New way to get oil Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:55:05 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c34c06$72547c00$6401a8c0@mrl03xjd8wxpx5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34BCB.C5F5A400" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"qhNwV2.0.El1.-7W5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51232 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34BCB.C5F5A400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A new way of dealing with trash and waste = oil. http://discover.com/may_03/gthere.html?article=featoil.html ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34BCB.C5F5A400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A new way of dealing with trash and waste =3D oil.
ht= tp://discover.com/may_03/gthere.html?article=3Dfeatoil.html

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C34BCB.C5F5A400-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 02:41:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA27455; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:41:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:41:01 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.1.20030717113249.00ab2680@pop.onlinehome.de> X-Sender: cc8592609-688@pop.onlinehome.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:43:35 +0200 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Huffman Subject: Re: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: <3F159108.4070507@rtpatlanta.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"V84Xl1.0.ri6.iyc5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51233 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 13:53 16.07.2003 -0400, you wrote: >explorecraft wrote: > >>Hey Vorts! >> >>I haven't seen anything advertised for sale, >>delivery on payment received sort of thing, >>that advertises itself as being >>LENR/Cold-fusion or any such nomenclature. >>Or is there? >Of course there is! See: > >http://lenr-canr.org/Features.htm#CDROM > >Books, videos, CDs, caps, mugs . . . > >Terry Ahoy! Fun's fun boys, but there are deliverable products available today if you have the money. Hydrodynamics Inc. can sell you a cavitation reactor that is capable of driving nuclear reactions, and Eagle Research can sell you a Brown's gas device that the Canadian government proved could do the same. Both devices are relatively large scale, industrial strength models. There are other companies of course, who make devices that can drive nuclear reactions at low energy inputs, but the above are just a couple examples that have been discussed on Vortex that I pulled off the top of my head. If anybody else can think of any more, feel free to enlighten these poor souls. Knuke From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 07:13:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA27692; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:12:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:12:38 -0700 Message-ID: <20030717141235.71139.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:12:35 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: New way to get oil To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000001c34c06$72547c00$6401a8c0@mrl03xjd8wxpx5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"MX8u21.0.Vm6.Mxg5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51234 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: it even oxidizes and removes the poisonous metals, arsenic, mercury, cadmium, ect. --- Michael Randall wrote: > A new way of dealing with trash and waste = oil. > http://discover.com/may_03/gthere.html?article=featoil.html > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 08:38:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA09386; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:32:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:32:34 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717112647.026d0eb8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:32:34 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New way to get oil In-Reply-To: <20030717141235.71139.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000001c34c06$72547c00$6401a8c0@mrl03xjd8wxpx5> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"5CuFu1.0.YI2.H6i5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51235 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: alexander hollins wrote: >it even oxidizes and removes the poisonous metals, >arsenic, mercury, cadmium, ect. And it is energy efficient. This is really great stuff. The part about removing poisonous metals reminds me of the process developed by Molten Metals Technology, Inc., Waltham, MA. Alas, that company appears to be defunct. However, I do not the energy content of organic waste can be as great as the initial energy used to manufacture the goods, food, etc. We will still need substantial energy inputs. As I pointed out here months ago, most of the energy content in foodstuffs gets eaten. That is to say, most of the energy in wheat is in the seed, not the stem or other waste products. Wheat evolved to concentrate the energy in the seed, and we evolved to steal that concentrated energy. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 08:51:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA20598; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:45:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:45:06 -0700 Message-ID: <20030717154503.13511.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:45:03 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: New way to get oil To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717112647.026d0eb8@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"q52nq2.0.m15.1Ii5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51236 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ohh, yeah, its not an energy generater, it tkes energy to do it, but it gives a way to convert sunlight and wind energy into trasportable oil, AND reduce polution from wastes. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > alexander hollins wrote: > > >it even oxidizes and removes the poisonous metals, > >arsenic, mercury, cadmium, ect. > > And it is energy efficient. This is really great > stuff. > > The part about removing poisonous metals reminds me > of the process > developed by Molten Metals Technology, Inc., > Waltham, MA. Alas, that > company appears to be defunct. > > However, I do not the energy content of organic > waste can be as great as > the initial energy used to manufacture the goods, > food, etc. We will still > need substantial energy inputs. As I pointed out > here months ago, most of > the energy content in foodstuffs gets eaten. That is > to say, most of the > energy in wheat is in the seed, not the stem or > other waste products. Wheat > evolved to concentrate the energy in the seed, and > we evolved to steal that > concentrated energy. > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 08:59:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA24963; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:51:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:51:31 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717114736.026f3f10@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:48:24 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New way to get oil In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717112647.026d0eb8@pop.mindspring.com> References: <20030717141235.71139.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> <000001c34c06$72547c00$6401a8c0@mrl03xjd8wxpx5> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9UKD61.0.y56.2Oi5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51237 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >However, I do not the energy content of organic waste . . . Meant: I do not THINK the energy . . . That wasn't even a voice input error. It turns out I write like that, too. I do not mean to imply there is a physical law or biological principle that embodied energy in products is never enough to support the manufacture of those products. There might be enough. But I thought about several sample products and I do not think most of them embody enough energy. Things like plastic bags do, obviously. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 09:08:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA02534; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:07:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:07:39 -0700 Message-ID: <20030717160734.64085.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:07:34 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: New way to get oil To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030717114736.026f3f10@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"XUAUw2.0.Kd.Adi5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51238 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: oops, didnt even notice the missing think, brain filled it in. and i agree. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > >However, I do not the energy content of organic > waste . . . > > Meant: I do not THINK the energy . . . > > That wasn't even a voice input error. It turns out I > write like that, too. > > I do not mean to imply there is a physical law or > biological principle that > embodied energy in products is never enough to > support the manufacture of > those products. There might be enough. But I thought > about several sample > products and I do not think most of them embody > enough energy. Things like > plastic bags do, obviously. > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 09:35:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA14250; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:27:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:27:54 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:25:30 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20030717113249.00ab2680@pop.onlinehome.de> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"dyoKO2.0.aU3.Awi5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51239 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Knuke, Thanks for your post, I was interested to look at these outfits and any other similar vendors. I ran a quick web search for Hydrodynamics Inc., but was overwhelmed by all the Hydrodynamics listings, of which I only saw seemingly related was the outfit that sells municipal and industrial pumps. Eagle Research sell Brown's Gas generators, yes, but this is simply an electrolyzer. Back in 1997 I saw a sales demo (ready to buy) of one of these type units in Singapore (made in Singapore), and they are nothing more than electrolysis machines, albeit they use some tricks we use in LENR experiments. They are extremely nice to use, and they have capabilities that are great. But not what I was searching for. What I am seeking is a genuine LENR generator set, something I can buy, feed it water and whatever consumable attachments it needs, and get energy from it. As advertised, I guess is what I meant, rather than something I could rig into being an LENR genset with a few addons and some tinkering. Thanks for the replies, anyway, the response has demonstrated that no such creature exists yet, at least as far as anyone here seems to know about. cheers > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Huffman [mailto:knuke@sumosound.de] > Sent: Thursday, 2003 July 17 16:44 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: LENR commercial products for sale > >.X.<. > Ahoy! > > Fun's fun boys, but there are deliverable products available today if > you have the money. Hydrodynamics Inc. can sell you a cavitation reactor > that is capable of driving nuclear reactions, and Eagle Research can sell > you a Brown's gas device that the Canadian government proved could do the > same. Both devices are relatively large scale, industrial strength > models. There are other companies of course, who make devices that can > drive nuclear reactions at low energy inputs, but the above are just a > couple examples that have been discussed on Vortex that I pulled off the > top of my head. If anybody else can think of any more, feel free to > enlighten these poor souls. > > Knuke > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 12:53:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA05756; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:50:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:50:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030716141407.51681.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030716141407.51681.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:50:19 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: the nature of life Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"Z0FuX3.0.rP1.Kul5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51240 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >i already posted that one. as too intelligent design >being taught in public schools, only if you also >require students to learn about all other religious >beliefs equally. science is not a religous belief, id >IS. therefore, as there can be no state religion, if yo I disagree with your contention that ID is a religion. It uses information science to make the point of the improbability of any of the chemical reactions which make the physical side of life possible occurring by chance. Notice I said individual chemical reactions, the probability of all of them occurring by chance is even more improbable. If you had 150,000 people flipping coins, how long would it take before all the coins came up heads, according to statistics, about 50,000.000 years. That's the probability of all the nuclides in the DNA of a microbe all assembling the right way. That is why the evolutionists push the old earth theory. ID also points out the set of factors, distance from the sun, size of the planet, the moon, which has a lot of interesting things, which appear anomalous, the resonance of the carbon atom. All of which make life possible, and all of which occur on the earth, and as far as we know, no where else. Life, IMHO, is not a physical phenomena. It is an energy phenomena. The DNA is just the physical manifestation of it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 13:08:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA16089; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:06:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:06:55 -0700 Message-ID: <20030717200651.715.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:06:51 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: the nature of life To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ilHry3.0.Ix3.V7m5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51241 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the chemical reactions on their own, without catalysts, and without lightening and solar energy brought into the equation, arent going to happen... of course, if id were taught in the way you just describe, a showing of how difficult the startup is, and the enourmous odds against, that wouldnt be religious, and would be just fine. but if you say it all happened because of god, you cross the line. --- thomas malloy wrote: > >i already posted that one. as too intelligent > design > >being taught in public schools, only if you also > >require students to learn about all other religious > >beliefs equally. science is not a religous belief, > id > >IS. therefore, as there can be no state religion, > if > yo > > I disagree with your contention that ID is a > religion. It uses > information science to make the point of the > improbability of any of > the chemical reactions which make the physical side > of life possible > occurring by chance. Notice I said individual > chemical reactions, the > probability of all of them occurring by chance is > even more > improbable. If you had 150,000 people flipping > coins, how long would > it take before all the coins came up heads, > according to statistics, > about 50,000.000 years. That's the probability of > all the nuclides in > the DNA of a microbe all assembling the right way. > That is why the > evolutionists push the old earth theory. > > ID also points out the set of factors, distance > from the sun, size > of the planet, the moon, which has a lot of > interesting things, which > appear anomalous, the resonance of the carbon atom. > All of which make > life possible, and all of which occur on the earth, > and as far as we > know, no where else. > > Life, IMHO, is not a physical phenomena. It is an > energy phenomena. > The DNA is just the physical manifestation of it. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 17 15:18:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13659; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:17:27 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1ca.df104d6.2c487a1a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:15:54 EDT Subject: Re: the nature of life To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Resent-Message-ID: <"IlBjs1.0.KL3.r1o5_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51242 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 7/17/03 4:08:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_leaking_pen@yahoo.com writes: << I disagree with your contention that ID is a > religion. It uses > information science to make the point of the > improbability of any of > the chemical reactions which make the physical side > of life possible > occurring by chance. >> Intelligent design is religion. Religion has a use in that it provides comfort and meaning to many. Religion has failed every time it addresses matters of natural science. Remember Galilao, he was jailed for stating that the sun revolves around the sun. Remember the middle ages when disease was attributed to sins not to germs. Intelligent design has no place in science. Who made the designer? I go to church but I send money to the Humanist society to keep things in balance. Frank Z From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 00:21:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA03089; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:18:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:18:23 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.1.20030717190401.00a7f020@pop.onlinehome.de> X-Sender: cc8592609-688@pop.onlinehome.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:21:57 +0200 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Huffman Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.1.20030717113249.00ab2680@pop.onlinehome.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pXF7_.0.gl.zyv5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51243 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 23:25 17.07.2003 +0700, you wrote: ----------------------- I haven't seen anything advertised for sale, delivery on payment received sort of thing, that advertises itself as being LENR/Cold-fusion or any such nomenclature. Or is there? ------------------------ The reason I mentioned these two devices was because I thought you were looking for anything commercially available that produced a LENR - not necessarily a genset. Upon rereading your post however, I see that you did specifically mention a genset. My apologies. In the event that you want to do other useful work involving commercially available LENR technologies, below is some additional info. >I ran a quick web search for Hydrodynamics Inc., > but was overwhelmed by all the Hydrodynamics listings, > of which I only saw seemingly related was > the outfit that sells municipal and industrial pumps. Here is the address for Hydrodynamics Inc. of Georgia. http://www.hydrodynamics.com/about_us.htm Like I said, this machine is a cavitation reactor capable of driving nuclear reactions. The simplest embodiment for a generator would be a closed circuit steam turbine driving a generator, using water enhanced with any radioactive material as a working fluid. Even without the nuclear material, this machine has been proven to deliver 2 1/2 times the volume of steam that a normal boiler does with the same energy input. You can do this with any cavitation reactor. You can also do many other useful tasks with a cavitation reactor. >Eagle Research sell Brown's Gas generators, > yes, but this is simply an electrolyzer. Yes, this is an electrolyzer, but it produces a much more interesting form of gas than just normal hydrogen and oxygen. The Canadian government tested this gas, and found that it was able to remediate radioactive material. No energy audit was performed to my knowledge, however, I have not read the entire report first hand. The report is available by request directly from Eagle Research. How, or even if, this capability could be engineered into generating electricity in a cost effective manner, I don't really know, but if it is possible, I'm sure that something easy could be put together. Perhaps it only requires running the resulting gas through a fuel cell. Those can be bought off the shelf these days for a price. I do know that "normal" Brown's Gas can be run through fuel cell, and is quite efficient at producing electricity. A nuclear enhanced version may be better, but I don't know of any attempts to try that. Of course, you can do other useful things with a Brown's Gas device as well. One other LENR device that came to mind after I last posted was the neutron producing device invented by Farnsworth. Scott Little of EarthTech built and tested this machine while on the Vortex Group some years back. If I recall correctly, Scott spent around $10,000 to build the thing, and a commercial version was being manufactured and sold by Motorola for around $80,000 to qualified customers. Scott did a very nice webpage describing the building and testing of the device, and it was viewable at the EarthTech website. I don't know if it is still there, but the URL for EarthTech is: http://www.earthtech.org/ My main reason for posting was to show that there are commercially available, proven, LENR products that do useful tasks in a cost effective manner. I assume that the main reason you don't find these things on the shelves of Walmart as gensets is because of the nature of the fuel itself. Any device that uses radioactive material for a fuel would be classified as a nuclear reactor, and would fall under the regulatory jurisdiction of the government - and rightfully so. These technologies can be very dangerous. Not too many manufacturers are willing or able to hire the army of lawyers necessary to deal with that kind of regulation and liability, nor are they willing or able to compete with the already established players of the nuclear industry. If all you want to do is generate electricity in an environmentally friendly, cost effective manner, then buy a windmill, a solar panel or something like that, and just forget about it. If you are looking to have some cutting edge fun, of course, you should keep reading the Vortex Group, and be prepared to build your own toys. All the best, Knuke From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 06:54:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA06362; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 06:53:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 06:53:40 -0700 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3F17EC9E.53042362@centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:48:30 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the nature of life References: <20030716141407.51681.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xt" Resent-Message-ID: <"MeE4y1.0.FZ1.al_5_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51244 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas Malloy wrote: If you had 150,000 people flipping coins, how long would it take before all the coins came up heads, according to statistics, about 50,000.000 years. That's the probability of all the nuclides in the DNA of a microbe all assembling the right way. That is why the evolutionists push the old earth theory. Hi All, Steven Strogatz in "Sync" describes millions of fireflies blinking on and off at the same time. Looking at it from the viewpoint of classical probability, the chance of this happening is (.5)^millions. Yet it happens night after night. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 07:59:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA10123; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:57:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:57:31 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: the nature of life Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:54:54 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"_o5y62.0.4U2.Rh06_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51245 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow! what arrogant people you Earthlings are: > -----Original Message----- > From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@metro.lakes.com] > Sent: Friday, 2003 July 18 02:50 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: the nature of life > > > >i already posted that one. as too intelligent design >X< > ID also points out the set of factors, distance from the sun, size > of the planet, the moon, which has a lot of interesting things, which > appear anomalous, the resonance of the carbon atom. All of which make > life possible, and all of which occur on the earth, and as far as we > know, no where else. > And you have checked this out very carefully, we presume, by actually cruising the planets throughout not only this galaxy, but most of the others as well ??? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 07:59:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA10160; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:57:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:57:33 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:55:12 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20030717190401.00a7f020@pop.onlinehome.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"_9H4o.0.gU2.Th06_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51246 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanx, I found your reply very enlightening. I was hoping such a thing was already for sale. Since it isn't, I might consider manufacturing a few. I wonder if there is a ready market for the prototypes? Anyone interested in buying a 'cold-fusion' genset? Of course, the packaging would need to be marked as an "electrolytic generator" in order to get past the customs cops {;^)> > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Huffman [mailto:knuke@sumosound.de] > Sent: Friday, 2003 July 18 14:22 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale > >X< > I assume that the main reason you don't find these things on the > shelves of Walmart as gensets is because of the nature of the fuel > itself. Any device that uses radioactive material for a fuel would be > classified as a nuclear reactor, and would fall under the regulatory > jurisdiction of the government - and rightfully so. These > technologies can > be very dangerous. Not too many manufacturers are willing or > able to hire > the army of lawyers necessary to deal with that kind of regulation and > liability, nor are they willing or able to compete with the already > established players of the nuclear industry. > > If all you want to do is generate electricity in an environmentally > friendly, cost effective manner, then buy a windmill, a solar panel or > something like that, and just forget about it. If you are > looking to have > some cutting edge fun, of course, you should keep reading the > Vortex Group, > and be prepared to build your own toys. > > All the best, > Knuke > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 10:08:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA15361; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:06:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:06:50 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:12:03 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale Resent-Message-ID: <"wk9p51.0.wl3.fa26_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51247 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:21 AM 7/18/3, Michael Huffman wrote: > Even without the nuclear >material, this machine has been proven to deliver 2 1/2 times the volume of >steam that a normal boiler does with the same energy input. You can do >this with any cavitation reactor. Could you clarify what you mean by this? If there is anything that we can do with 100 percent efficiency it is boil water. This statement seems to imply cavitation reactors produce a COP of about 2.5. The expericence with the Yousmar proved otherwise. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 12:45:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02928; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718153317.02766c08@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:43:13 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QKRTt.0.Yj.et46_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51248 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >If there is anything that we can do with 100 percent efficiency it is boil >water. This statement seems to imply cavitation reactors produce a COP of >about 2.5. The expericence with the Yousmar proved otherwise. Strictly speaking, in the scientific sense, this experience did not "prove" anything except that the Yousmar itself does not work. That does not prove that no cavitation reactors anywhere can ever produce excess heat. The Hydrodynamics (Griggs) gadget does appear to work. Excess heat was measured repeatedly in at least six sites, using different instruments and methods. A very expensive test bed was constructed and the results from it repeatedly confirmed the excess heat. Because such claims are bad for business, the test bed was disassembled years ago. As far as I know, no further tests have been performed in the last 5 or 10 years. But the original results still stand. As far as I know, no one has ever pointed out a serious, significant error in the techniques. Perhaps these tests were not perfectly convincing, but to the best of anyone's knowledge, the gadget does, sometimes, produce excess heat beyond the limits of chemistry. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 15:06:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA05032; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:05:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:05:22 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718150520.00b10830@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:06:12 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: stevek Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718153317.02766c08@pop.mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Zayau1.0.XE1.Wy66_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51249 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed: Why are they bad for business? >to work. Excess heat was measured repeatedly in at least six sites, using >different instruments and methods. A very expensive test bed was >constructed and the results from it repeatedly confirmed the excess heat. >Because such claims are bad for business Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 15:10:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA07009; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:09:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:09:09 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718174520.027fa728@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:07:50 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Pre-Scientific Americans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"y41Q4.0.Pj1.4076_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51250 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Most members of this forum, or any academic scientific gathering, share a common worldview that first appeared during the Renaissance. Despite our occasional disputes, most people here agree about most basic rules of logic, the rules of evidence, and the differing roles of the "descriptive" (objective observation) versus "normative" (prescriptive; a set of rules to be enforced). A scientifically trained person may have strong feelings about a hot-button social issue such as sexual morality, but he will not object to a plan to study teenage sexual behavior objectively, to gather data for health policy. Whether you are a churchgoer or a libertine, if you are also scientifically trained you will probably assume that's how it should be done. How else? It is remarkable fact that many people in the US and other advanced technological societies do not share this worldview. Some are hostile toward it, and some are strangers to it. Apparently it is not always taught in schools or they were absent that day. It often happens that people in power, such as politicians and leading businessmen, are strangers to the scientific method and the rules of logic. The politician Newt Gingrich is a prime example. I have followed his career because he was from my district. His case is particularly strange because he is an academic historian; an ex-university professor. There are plenty of conservative professors, but as far as I know, they honor academic traditions as much as the liberal ones do. Yet Gingrich seems disconnected from these traditions. Robert Park pays lip service to objectivity, but Gingrich has never heard of it. Actually, Park is even worse than Gingrich in actual behavior, and he tends to be left-wing. He opposes Star Wars for example. My point is, he pays lip service to the standards even when he egregiously violates them, whereas Gingrich openly ignores them. (I suspect Park is stupid, whereas Gingrich is has a wily, pre-modern intellect.) I do not mean to attack right-wing views here. As far as I know, left-wing politicians are as irrational as right-wing ones. But conservatives are in power today, so their shortcomings make the heatlines, and a particularly vivid example in the Washington Post caught my attention. It is one of the purest examples of prescientific thinking I have seen in sophisticated modern society: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3469-2003Jul16.html QUOTE: . . . Refutations plunge you into the realm of facts, where this administration is exquisitely uncomfortable. Just how uncomfortable becomes clear by a close reading of the cover story in the July-August issue of Foreign Policy -- Newt Gingrich's attack on the State Department for its refusal to implement George W. Bush's foreign policy. [I]ts most stunning passage -- an attack on the very idea of unbiased intelligence -- has been overlooked. Gingrich notes that on April 28, Bush told a group of Iraqi Americans in Dearborn, Mich., "I have confidence in the future of a free Iraq. The Iraqi people are fully capable of self-government." Then [Gingrich] continues: "Contrast that vision with a recent classified report by the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research titled 'Iraq, the Middle East and Change: No Dominoes,' which was leaked in March 2003 to the Los Angeles Times. As reported by that newspaper, the document stated that 'liberal democracy would be difficult to achieve [in Iraq]. . . . Electoral democracy, were it to emerge, could well be subject to exploitation by anti-American elements.' " Gingrich goes on to list other Foggy Bottom low points, and concludes: "Can anyone imagine a State Department more out of sync with Bush's views and objectives?" It's okay if you want to go back and read that again. Gingrich has just criticized an intelligence assessment of what Iraq *is* for being out of sync with Bush's views on what *Iraq should be*. Those of us who've called for investigations of whether the administration slanted its intelligence should be abashed. What's to investigate? Here's a member of the administration's Defense Policy Board who argues in print that the very purpose of intelligence is to confirm the president's vision of a proper planet. In the mind of Newt Gingrich . . . the descriptive and the normative are as one. [** Emphasis added by me] END QUOTE Some observers fear a growing disconnect between scientists and conservatives. See: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0307.thompson.html I think this problem is exaggerated. It is a pocketbook issue: this administration comes from the oil industry. Liberal Democrats from automobile manufacturing districts are just as bad. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 15:22:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA14376; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:21:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:21:31 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:26:45 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale Resent-Message-ID: <"DWfP6.0.WW3.gB76_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51251 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:43 PM 7/18/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>If there is anything that we can do with 100 percent efficiency it is boil >>water. This statement seems to imply cavitation reactors produce a COP of >>about 2.5. The expericence with the Yousmar proved otherwise. > >Strictly speaking, in the scientific sense, this experience did not "prove" >anything except that the Yousmar itself does not work. That does not prove >that no cavitation reactors anywhere can ever produce excess heat. The >Hydrodynamics (Griggs) gadget does appear to work. Excess heat was measured >repeatedly in at least six sites, using different instruments and methods. >A very expensive test bed was constructed and the results from it >repeatedly confirmed the excess heat. Because such claims are bad for >business, the test bed was disassembled years ago. This makes no sense at all. If it is way over unity, then it is worth something, scientifically and possibly economically too if the rotor replacement rate is not too high, and not "bad for business." Last I heard, if I recall correctly, Griggs was trying to apply the device to cleaning up sewage. >As far as I know, no >further tests have been performed in the last 5 or 10 years. But the >original results still stand. As far as I know, no one has ever pointed out >a serious, significant error in the techniques. Perhaps these tests were >not perfectly convincing, but to the best of anyone's knowledge, the gadget >does, sometimes, produce excess heat beyond the limits of chemistry. > >- Jed Jed, you clipped the qute to which I referred, thus putting my remark way out of context. Here it is again: At 9:21 AM 7/18/3, Michael Huffman wrote: > Even without the nuclear >material, this machine has been proven to deliver 2 1/2 times the volume of >steam that a normal boiler does with the same energy input. You can do >this with any cavitation reactor. I certainly take exception to the word "any" as used above. My comment's about the Yousmar (Yusmar?) are thus valid, as it is sufficient to fulfill the "any" condition. The status of Griggs' device is irrelevant in that context. However, since you brought it up, if Griggs has a valid overunity device, then why hasn't he capitalized on it and had it replicated enough times to get his Nobel Prize and other cash awards and acolades for such a device? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 15:43:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA26395; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:42:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:42:39 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718181103.027fa728@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:41:35 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718150520.00b10830@mail.dlsi.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718153317.02766c08@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eI7nf2.0.IS6.VV76_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51252 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: stevek wrote: >Why are [excess heat claims] bad for business? Several reasons: 1. Prospective customers would assume the claims are false, and the company is lying. So would government regulators, the police and competing firms, and they would make trouble. 2. People assume the claims are physically impossible, so the company must be run by uneducated rubes or lunatics. 3. The effect is too small and unreliable to have any commercial significance. The excess is only about 20% of input power, and it frequently disappears. If it were consistently 300% of input it would have enormous commercial value, and anyone could measure it easily, and rational people would not deny it. 4. These claims upset most scientists and many engineers. Some of the powerful ones could make big trouble for the company. An engineering consultant years ago was given the task of collecting & analyzing data from the machine. He arrived with a power meter, thermometers and so on, and wrote down readings on a yellow pad. A week later, he came back, threw the pad on the table, and said something like: "This is a betrayal of everything I have learned! I will not piss on the graves of Newton, Watt and Faraday. I will have nothing more to do with this travesty!" And he stormed out. (He actually did cite Newton, Watt and Faraday, although I doubt his language was as flowery and antique as my description. The tone seems to fit his attitude.) Apparently, as far as Griggs and I can make out, this guy thought Griggs had somehow staged an elaborate hoax, even though (as far as I know) the guy brought his own tools, and any engineer who looks at the machine can see a hoax is impossible. There are no extra wires or fuel tanks. If there were, they would be large and readily apparent, because the excess is sometimes several kilowatts. People like that guy spell trouble, and people like that are everywhere, as cold fusion scientists have learned to their grief. Essentially, that engineer considers laws of physics to be religious dogma, handed down by immortal geniuses, not as theories that can be experimentally tested or as tools to examine reality. The Hydrodynamics Inc. management wisely decided to keep the performance of their machine secret, or at least obscure. I sympathize, and I reluctantly agree with their policy. Given today's harsh anti-intellectual atmosphere, they have no choice. No group of researchers would be allowed to test the machine and publish positive results in a credible venue. It would be career suicide for everyone involved. Perhaps in our lifetimes the day will come when such things are allowed. Perhaps not. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 16:06:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA09103; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:04:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:04:58 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718184351.027f8778@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:04:51 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"x0p7-3.0.4E2.Pq76_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51253 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >This makes no sense at all. If it is way over unity . . . It is only a little over unity, and the effect comes and goes. It is hard to keep the effect "turned on." Actually, that increased my confidence that the effect is real. >Last I heard, if I recall correctly, Griggs was trying to apply the device >to cleaning up sewage. Yup. That's a good niche application. >Jed, you clipped the qute to which I referred, thus putting my remark way >out of context. I apologize. >However, since you brought it up, if Griggs has a valid overunity device, >then why hasn't he capitalized on it and had it replicated enough times to >get his Nobel Prize and other cash awards and acolades for such a device? Griggs is long gone from the company. He did not invent the machine in the first place. I forget the name of the guy who did, but Griggs cited him in the patent. I have heard from people connected to the original guy (who died many years ago) that Griggs knew about his work all along. Regarding the Nobel Prize and other accolades, you are living in a dream world if you think anyone could gather them with such a device, in our benighted era. Look what happened to Stan Pons! You would be lucky if you ended up in exile as he did, and not in jail. Or dead. People who invent radical new gadgets have gotten into trouble in every era in history. I do not believe that our era is beyond hope. I do not think we face "the death of science," as Schwinger put it. Not yet, anyway. Martin Fleischmann is much more pessimistic than I am, and Ed Storms has often said we are going to hell in a handbasket. As I see it, we are at a low ebb. Innovation is particularly unwelcome today, because of various social, economic and demographic forces. I am not kidding about being killed. I do not believe in conspiracy theories. On the other hand I know for a fact that Pons and others received death threats. He took them seriously, and I sure would, in his place. Let's face it, big money is at stake here, and it doesn't take much money to bring out the worse in people. Plenty of businessmen will commit arson or murder in a dispute over a used-car dealership. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 16:17:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA17834; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:16:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:16:17 -0700 Message-ID: <003601c34d82$c266a560$01000a0a@iam.net.ma> Reply-To: "GB MAROC" From: "GB MAROC" To: "Vortex-L@Eskimo.Com" References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718184351.027f8778@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: LENR commercial products for sale Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:17:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"GiIQL1.0.LM4.0_76_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51254 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Griggs is long gone from the company. He did not invent the machine in the > first place. I forget the name of the guy who did, but Griggs cited him in > the patent. I have heard from people connected to the original guy (who > died many years ago) that Griggs knew about his work all along. ASK KNUKE From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 18:44:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA01652; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:43:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:43:18 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:48:28 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: OFF TOPIC: Duck tape capitol of the world announced Resent-Message-ID: <"1Lu-t1.0.fP.r8A6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51255 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rugged individualistic self reliant kluge builders of vortex can probably appreciate this announcement. It official folks! The manufacturer of Duck tape, the houseghold fix-everything version real duct tape, has announced today that Wasilla, Alaska is the Duck Tape Capitol of the World. A celibration was held today in downtown Wasilla, about 10 miles away from here, complete with a life sized Duck tape moose. Wasilla consumed more Duck tape per person than any other town. I was quite impressed. My wife, being of more refined nature than I, was happy it was Wasilla that earned the title and not our smaller more bucolic home town of Palmer. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 18 19:37:27 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA31306; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:35:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:35:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3F18AEA8.B2D9F0BB@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:36:24 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 18 Jul 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TikQn1.0.2f7.CwA6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51256 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 18 Jul 03 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:04:10 -0400 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa@aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 18 Jul 03 Washington, DC (Andrew Essin contributed to this issue of What's New.) NOTE: Nothing in this issue is based on British Intelligence. 1. MISSILE DEFENSE: APS BOOST-PHASE STUDY - IT'S ABOUT TIME. On Tuesday, the APS held a Washington press conference to release a massive 3-year study of the feasibility of attacking a ballistic missile while its rockets are still firing - the first layer of the president's missile defense plan. Rockets may be easy to spot, but even if it's forty-year old technology, boost phase only lasts four minutes; newer solid-fuel rockets, maybe three. Conclusion? You're not gonna get there in time. And even if you could, countermeasures are easy. In other words, the best boost- phase interceptor would be obsolete as soon as it's built. The study's authors studiously declined to draw policy implications. What's New is under no such constraint. As one physicist who read the report put it, "Even if it would work it wouldn't work, but it won't work." A week before release of the APS study, the Senate slashed funding for boost-phase interceptor development. 2. PRIVACY: SENATE DROPS "TERRORISM INFORMATION AWARENESS" (TIA). A provision in the 2004 Defense Appropriations Act prohibits R&D on the controversial TIA Program ("T" used to stand for "Total"). The White House urged the Senate to remove the provision, calling TIA "a potentially important tool in the war on terrorism." 3. MINI-NUKES: THE HOUSE DOES A LITTLE CUTTING TOO. The House Energy and Water Development Subcommittee unexpectedly denied funding intended to start design work on small nuclear weapons. As the notorious Nuclear Posture Review made clear (WN 15 Mar 02), the real goal of mini-nukes is to blur the distinction between conventional and nuclear weapons and hence to lower the psychological barriers to proliferation. Subcommittee Chair David Hobson (R-OH) did not cite those problems, making instead the point that we have lots of nuclear weapons already and that it would be worth our while to maintain the stockpile. 4. WHITE HOUSE: PRESIDENT BUSH IS A HARD MAN TO REACH. The New York Times reported this morning that e-mailing the President is not a straightforward process. So we tried it - it took more than half an hour for the most e-literate of the WN staff to navigate through the various Web forms to send a science-policy comment. We would just like to point out that, while we not only care what you think about us, you can e-mail us easily at opa@aps.org. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 19 10:12:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA09684; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:11:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:11:10 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:16:27 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Resent-Message-ID: <"otgvz3.0.EN2.kkN6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51257 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since Art's parts have been raised as an issue related to my suggestion of using a large cavity shielded fromt he ZPF in a oscillating manner to achieve inertial thrust, it seems appropriate to discuss the parts some. According to the layered material taken from the Roswell crash site consisted of magnesium layers of 20 microns separated by extremely pure bismuth layers of 3-4 microns. This makes for a vry interesting material for excluding the ZPF from a cavity, in that Bi is superconducting and Mg is not. The Mg may simply provide a lightweight structure to support the thin layers of bismuth. Of further interest is the notation on the above URL of the ability of bismuth to expand up to 400 percent. Also possibly related is the fact that Bi has a compartively high superconducing Tk of 6.17 - 2.6 K in thin layer, 3.9 K or more under pressure. In bulk form Bi is not superconducting unless under pressure of at least 28 kbar. It is thus possible that the Bismuth can provide exactly the kind of variable shielding required for generting inertial thrust, i.e. can act as a fast ZPF window, as noted earlier in this thread. It can possibly do this in two ways. First, by applying negative pressure, i.e. sufficiently expanding the bismuth layer, its superconducting property might be reduced or eliminated. This does not seem to be a such a good thing in that regaining superconductivity would take both time and energy. However, if the bismuth can be stretched somewhat without losing supercondutivity, then a variable frequency ZPF exclusion band is created. This would only be of use if the materials (i.e. the electrons in the materials) to be used in the inertial drive were sensitive to ZPF frequency. What is surprsing to me, assuming that the purpose of the material is to shield selected freqencies of the ZPF from a large cavity device, is the seemingly comparatively long wavelength of the excluded energy. Assuming 3.5 micron layer of Bi, this would exclude a roughly 7 micron wavelength, i.e 7x10^-8 meters. This corresponds to an energy E = h*c/lambda ~= 18 eV. Sound familiar? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 19 10:18:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA12132; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:17:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:17:41 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030719101804.0a891c88@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:18:37 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: stevek Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Duck tape capitol of the world announced In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"58XTX2.0.Pz2.rqN6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51258 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mr. Bush would be proud. ;) At 05:48 PM 7/18/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Rugged individualistic self reliant kluge builders of vortex can probably >appreciate this announcement. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 19 10:35:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA16776; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:34:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:34:19 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030719101854.0a8a9ae0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:35:18 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: stevek Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718181103.027fa728@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718150520.00b10830@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030718153317.02766c08@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QITnN2.0.064.Q4O6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51259 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed: Grumble grumble. Okay, I have to say say that I understand and agree with you. While I was speaking to an engineer last week with a background in laser physics, it became obvious to me that he, like many other people, had latched onto the "popular" notion that CF, (or any other OU device) is a hoax. Despite a very polite and substantiated conversation in which I responded to every question he had, a significant part of him was just not ready to accept the possibility of bench-top OU. My guess is that there is an emotional component in many non-acceptors that over-rides their intellect, and until some overwhelming shift occurs, no amount of data will overcome this block. Willbur and Orville, Part II. At 06:41 PM 7/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: >stevek wrote: > >>Why are [excess heat claims] bad for business? > >Several reasons: > >1. Prospective customers would assume the claims are false, and the >company is lying. So would government regulators, the police and competing >firms, and they would make trouble. > >2. People assume the claims are physically impossible, so the company must >be run by uneducated rubes or lunatics. > >3. The effect is too small and unreliable to have any commercial >significance. The excess is only about 20% of input power, and it >frequently disappears. If it were consistently 300% of input it would have >enormous commercial value, and anyone could measure it easily, and >rational people would not deny it. > >4. These claims upset most scientists and many engineers. Some of the >powerful ones could make big trouble for the company. > >An engineering consultant years ago was given the task of collecting & >analyzing data from the machine. He arrived with a power meter, >thermometers and so on, and wrote down readings on a yellow pad. A week >later, he came back, threw the pad on the table, and said something like: >"This is a betrayal of everything I have learned! I will not piss on the >graves of Newton, Watt and Faraday. I will have nothing more to do with >this travesty!" And he stormed out. (He actually did cite Newton, Watt and >Faraday, although I doubt his language was as flowery and antique as my >description. The tone seems to fit his attitude.) > >Apparently, as far as Griggs and I can make out, this guy thought Griggs >had somehow staged an elaborate hoax, even though (as far as I know) the >guy brought his own tools, and any engineer who looks at the machine can >see a hoax is impossible. There are no extra wires or fuel tanks. If there >were, they would be large and readily apparent, because the excess is >sometimes several kilowatts. > >People like that guy spell trouble, and people like that are everywhere, >as cold fusion scientists have learned to their grief. Essentially, that >engineer considers laws of physics to be religious dogma, handed down by >immortal geniuses, not as theories that can be experimentally tested or as >tools to examine reality. > >The Hydrodynamics Inc. management wisely decided to keep the performance >of their machine secret, or at least obscure. I sympathize, and I >reluctantly agree with their policy. Given today's harsh anti-intellectual >atmosphere, they have no choice. No group of researchers would be allowed >to test the machine and publish positive results in a credible venue. It >would be career suicide for everyone involved. Perhaps in our lifetimes >the day will come when such things are allowed. Perhaps not. > >- Jed > Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 19 11:23:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA03958; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:22:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:22:37 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01c34e22$4bd65c60$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:19:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA03931 Resent-Message-ID: <"ivsZo3.0.kz.inO6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51260 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "What is surprising to me, assuming that the purpose of the material is to shield selected frequencies of the ZPF from a large cavity device, is the seemingly comparatively long wavelength of the excluded energy. Assuming 3.5 micron layer of Bi, this would exclude a roughly 7 micron wavelength, i.e 7x10^-8 meters. This corresponds to an energy E = h*c/lambda ~= 18 eV. Sound familiar?" Horace, Looks like you have your math off by a couple of orders of mag.? 18 eV radiation is 70 nm not 7 micron, but still you may be unintentionally correct to some extent, as I do believe that most of the OU from ZPE IS definitely in the VUV spectrum - which is where you would find 18 eV: http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/prevens/casimir/casimir.htm BTW, that particular Roswell fragment has been debunked numerous times. There is almost no chance that it wasn't planted by some trickster who is still gloating over the number of wide-eyed suckers who have taken the bait... "The artifact bears a strong resemblance to irregular layered residue often found in large physical vapor deposition (PVD) coaters. This family of filming processes includes sputtering, E-beam, and resistively heated thermal evaporation; all common vacuum processes used widely in industry. " http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/artsparts.htm or more conclusively, "In 2000, one last revelation came our way on the origin of the artifact. The combination of bismuth and magnesium had eluded us for four years. But then one day, we found a reference to an obscure industrial process used in the refinement of lead. The process, called the Betterton-Krohl Process, uses molten magnesium floated over the surface of liquid lead. The magnesium sucks up, or pulls bismuth impurities out of the lead! Often, the magnesium is used over and over again. " But the final nail in the coffin. Another researcher has found that the isotopic ratios of the two metals is identical to that found on earth to three decimal points... they say that the chances of two planets in two different solar systems having exact isotopic ratios that close is so far beyond computation that it is not even worth the effort... Having said that... I think it would be interesting to find specific geometric zones where aether effects are either seen prominently, or else excluded....But IMHO they will NOT be large cavity if that means micron dimensionsI! Look at the graph on fig3 of the first reference and you will see that things start getting interesting around 50 nm. To that end I have been collecting various facts and anecdotal reports of stange happenings and OU in the several nanometer range...not exactly "large cavity" but within the capabilites of the kind of circuitry etching done in semiconductor manufacturing. I have concocted a proto-theory for one or two sizes to use as a starting point FULL SPECULATION ALERT Assuming that the "aether" is hierarchical and that there is some kind of duality at work, then looking for the most apparent particulate, the beta-aether particulate, can be attempted in theory. The particulate is likely to be related to a universal phenomenon that is "hidden" in our three-space (IOW the progenitor particle is located in a lower fractal of universal four-space where there is some inter-dimensional crossover). Therefore, it will most likely bear some relationship to either the proton or the electron, these being the most prevalent fermions in the universe - and since only the electron is guaranteed to be everywhere that a variety of elements coexist, like earth, then let's say that beta-aether is related to the electron itself in some kind of virtual fashion. The other particulates for the other hierarchical forms of aether in the ZPF will be vastly different, and orders of magnitude smaller, so this speculation only applies to beta-aether. Positronium (Ps) is a pure leptonic system consisting of an electron and its anti-particle, the positron. One important feature of Ps is that it is a neutral anti-matter particle. There is no Coulomb interaction (or at least no obvious one) present which can mask phase shifts of interest e.g. inertial forces, and this particle should be Lorentz invariant, therefore the Michelson-Morley experiment does not invalidate it as being the progenitor of beta-aether. Also, there would be no virtual Ps/ beta-aether drag on matter, because the virtual particle normally resides in a higher fractal. Virtual Ps can be said to continually "boil" over into our three-space in proportion to the "time" that there have been real electrons present in our three space (5 billion years or so) therefore it acts as a robust, hidden memory of a timeless past (shades of Sheldrake). Whenever a virtual electron appears in our three space, along with its virtual counterpart - the positron, for its characteristic "stay" of 142 nanoseconds, it has associated with it several wavelengths. These may be the remnants of *spin* that persist long after the virtual positronium has faded from our three-space. In effect, the beta-aether is a "Cheshire cat" remnant, a virtual spin-1 "memory boson" that interacts by spin-effects with matter at only a certain geometric spatial distance, but which is very robust due to a constant boiling of virtual positronium in and out of our three-space. In addition to Ps, we must consider *alpha* the fine structure constant (~1/137) which is the characteristic determinator of how an electron interacts with normal matter. Therefore, there are two wavelengths of interest which could be determinative of the size of the beta-aether particulate and its interaction "zone". One is the virtual photon decay wavelength of 6.8 eV (=182.6 nm) and the other is the optical transition 1s - 2p of 243.1 nm. When we apply the fine structure constant to these two we get some interesting higher dimensional "target zones": 1) 1.33 nm (most probable) 2) 1.77 nm (second choice) For comparative purposes, this is about a baker's dozen of hydrogen atoms lined up end-to-end. What this means is anybody's guess, but for starters, I would say that lumps of matter might have a tendency to nucleate around a virtual spin particulate of 1.33 nm. and that these lumps become metal or ceramic "crystals" fixed to varying extents, and that this physical property translates to some degree into what we call tensile strength and other forms of structural bonding. The structure that forms around the nucleating agent, of course, may be much larger or smaller than the agent itself, as that final size and geometry is determined by the diameter of the atoms themselves - and such things as hydrogen bonding, valence electrons, etc. but it seems very likely that a icosahedron is the preferred geometry (twenty faces, but each face may have more than one atom/molecule). Therefore, using this figure of 1.33 nm as a starting premise, it will be interesting to see how this hypothesis stacks up over time when applied to various phenomena that are reported (like van der waals type forces, the bee's flight in a vacuum, etc). BTW the energy of 6.8 eV, which is the preferred starting point for this speculation exists in the extreme UV range, and is VERY much interconnected with a number of "free energy" phenomena...like the hydrino, for instance, although R. Mills does not recognize it yet! Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 19 15:59:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA26868; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:59:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:59:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3F19CD37.7020901@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:59:03 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Question on heater driven turbine References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718150520.00b10830@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030718153317.02766c08@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030719101854.0a8a9ae0@mail.dlsi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Zv4jZ2.0.dZ6.rqS6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51261 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, When sometime soon :-) an OU heater emerges, how feasible would it be to use it inside the combustion chamber of a turbine engine ? Here's some figures I've been tossing about: The most common gas turbine is the Allison 250-C20: http://www.rollsroyce.com/helicopters/products/model_250turbshaft.htm The model 250-C20R burns 27 gallons/hour and produces about 400 HP. My quick calculations show that is about 1 megawatt of heat (from JET-A tables). The burner pressure is about 90 psi and the exhaust gas temperature is about 900oC. (They don't measure the combustion temperature in operation because it's just too hostile a place to measure anything, so I have no idea how much hotter it is). If a 1 megawatt electric heater were placed in the burner can (which, conveniently, is on the back and could be scaled in size to anything desired ), would there be any problems? Some thoughts: In particular, in normal operation, the oxygen passing by the hot section turbine has been reduced due to combustion, and that's not the case with a heater, so the blades may ozidize more quickly, although I think there's a very big excess of air, but not sure. One could use a closed air path in this case and use nitrogen or helium instead (with one whopping big heat exchanger ). How important is the stoicheometry and phase change from liquid to gas of the fuel in the overall picture ( I wouldn't think much). Would, say, a ceramic fiber mat heater be able to transfer 1 megawatt to 90 psi air flowing at 3.8 lbm/second in a reasonable size and weight? (The normal combustor is about the size of a 1.5 lb coffee can, it appears.) I know there was research a few years ago about powering aircraft by shining lasers on the ground into turbines, but they were undoubtedly highly specialized. Regards, Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 19 17:20:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA27007; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:19:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:19:36 -0700 Message-ID: <005f01c34e54$2975a0e0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718150520.00b10830@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030718153317.02766c08@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030719101854.0a8a9ae0@mail.dlsi.net> <3F19CD37.7020901@cox.net> Subject: Re: Question on heater driven turbine Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:16:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA26970 Resent-Message-ID: <"qKrmU1.0.mb6.N0U6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51262 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt, > When sometime soon :-) an OU heater emerges, how feasible would it be > to use it inside the combustion chamber of a turbine engine ? If you want to see a glimpse of a possible future app for OU in air transport, check out the PDF file and pics at: http://engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf This rocket engine is funded by NASA and could be used suborbitally in a (very fast) airplane - it would likely be so much more powerful than a combustion engine that you could dispense with the turbine. That is, unless Bob Park and the skeptics get to congress and squelch the funding first....you know, to them it is an impossible dream... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 19 18:59:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA02099; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:58:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:58:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3F19F750.6010104@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:58:40 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question on heater driven turbine References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718150520.00b10830@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030718153317.02766c08@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030719101854.0a8a9ae0@mail.dlsi.net> <3F19CD37.7020901@cox.net> <005f01c34e54$2975a0e0$0a016ea8@cpq> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000304080202010005060008" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ne_dW.0.jW.CTV6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51263 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------000304080202010005060008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jones, Thanks for the prompt reply. That's exciting to see such experimentation. Other than my curiosity about turbine engines, I'm hoping that as soon as an OU heater becomes available, It would be fun to start sending bills to the power company via perhape, an induction generator connected to some kind of rotary OU rotational machinery. The simplest quick and dirty household generator ( an induction generator requires nothing more than just spinning an induction motor faster than synchronous speed ( 1800 RPM ) for a 4 pole motor, and voila--your power meter starts running backwards :-) (I've tried that with a gas engine, and it works) . Of course, the power company would probably try to bill you for the 10's complement of the meter reading, and you'd have to prove that it's not possible to absorb 100,000 KWh power in one month :-) . Jones Beene wrote: >Hoyt, > > > >>When sometime soon :-) an OU heater emerges, how feasible would it be >>to use it inside the combustion chamber of a turbine engine ? >> >> > >If you want to see a glimpse of a possible future app for OU in air transport, check out the PDF file and pics at: >http://engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf > > --------------000304080202010005060008 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jones,

Thanks for the prompt reply. That's exciting to see such experimentation.

Other than my curiosity about turbine engines, I'm hoping that as soon as an OU heater becomes
available, It would be fun to start sending bills to the power company via perhape, an induction
generator connected to some kind of rotary OU rotational machinery.  The simplest quick and dirty
household generator ( an induction generator requires nothing more than just spinning an induction
motor faster than synchronous speed ( 1800 RPM ) for a 4  pole motor, and voila--your power meter
starts running backwards :-)  (I've tried that with a gas engine, and it works) .

  Of course, the power company would probably try to bill you for the
10's complement of the meter reading, and you'd have to prove that it's not possible to absorb 100,000 KWh
power in one month :-) .

Jones Beene wrote:
Hoyt,
 
  
When sometime soon :-) an OU heater emerges,  how feasible would it be 
to use it inside the combustion chamber of a turbine engine ?
    

If you want to see a glimpse of a possible future app for OU in air transport, check out the PDF file and pics at:
http://engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf

--------------000304080202010005060008-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 19 20:42:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA12924; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:41:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:41:35 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944@aol.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:40:52 EDT Subject: where can I get some pure potash To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10638 Resent-Message-ID: <"i3yA-3.0.a93.jzW6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51264 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have a thought where I can get some pure potash? Frank Znidarsic --part1_6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone have a thought where I can get some pure potash= ?

Frank Znidarsic --part1_6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 00:13:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA27274; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:13:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:13:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:15:21 +1200 From: RBR Subject: Re: where can I get some pure potash To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <007601c34e8e$af997c20$1c90a7cb@vuw.ac.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0073_01C34EF3.43E35FE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"4CyXm.0.4g6._3a6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51265 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C34EF3.43E35FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank ..... A pottery or ceramic supplier would have it . Regards RBR Subject: where can I get some pure potash Anyone have a thought where I can get some pure potash? Frank Znidarsic ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C34EF3.43E35FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Frank ..... A pottery or ceramic = supplier would=20 have it .
        =20 Regards RBR
Subject: where can I get some = pure=20 potash

Anyone have a thought where I can get some pure=20 potash?

Frank Znidarsic = ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C34EF3.43E35FE0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 02:56:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA31747; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:55:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:55:22 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:00:34 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Resent-Message-ID: <"Cuq1O3.0.kl7.9Sc6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51266 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:19 AM 7/19/3, Jones Beene wrote: >"What is surprising to me, assuming that the purpose of the material is to >shield selected frequencies of the ZPF from a large cavity device, is the >seemingly comparatively long wavelength of the excluded energy. Assuming >3.5 micron layer of Bi, this would exclude a roughly 7 micron wavelength, >i.e 7x10^-8 meters. This corresponds to an energy E = h*c/lambda ~= 18 eV. ******** MY ERROR! >Sound familiar?" > > >Horace, > >Looks like you have your math off by a couple of orders of mag.? >18 eV radiation is 70 nm not 7 micron, I certainly am off! But it was not the math. It was the use of 10^-8 for "micro" instead of 10^-6. I thought the eV looked strange, and checked the calculation (which was right) several times, but couldn't put my finger on it, but I sent the post anyway because my wife was in a hurry to load up the bikes for our trip to Bird, Alaska. BTW we had an adventuresome trip. About 3/4 mile down the path a large black bear crossed or joined the path at a bend about 20 meters ahead, so we reversed course and decided to pack up our bikes and go to Anchorage instead. There were some black bear maulings in Southcentral Alaska recently, and that has been on people's minds. We did end up doing 30 miles on Anchorage trails, but had a standoff waiting for a moose on the trail for a few minutes. > but still you may be unintentionally correct to some extent, The calculations I did earlier in this thread were looking in the 10^7 m to 10^8 m range, so I was predisposed to think in those terms, thus the I botched the exponent into that range. >as I do believe that most of the OU from ZPE IS definitely in the VUV >spectrum - which is where you would find 18 eV: >http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/prevens/casimir/casimir.htm The above theory is has some serious holes in it, and some very interesting implications which I discuss below when you reference it again. Based on the more convetional ZPF/ZPE theory, since the energy in the ZPF is proportional to the 4th power of frequency, the higher the frequency you can get a device to work at the more energy you get. I think there are indications that 10-20 keV is an electron energy range where some ZPF related overunity activity might be occuring in CF type devices, as noted in various posts, including the AEH. The trigger energy for chains of this kind of ZPE reaction might be either lattice cracking or cosimic rays. > >BTW, that particular Roswell fragment has been debunked numerous times. Well yes, but so has CF, LENR, water fueled vehicles, free energy, perpetual motion, aether, faster than light travel, etc., been debunked. 8^) Doesn't prevent what-if discussion here though! 8^) >There is almost no chance that it wasn't planted by some trickster who is >still gloating over the number of wide-eyed suckers who have taken the >bait... Yes, but still, bismuth seems to have some terrific properties for making fast ZPF windows (i.e. ZPF gates), it's just that Art's parts layers are too thick. It seems to me there is usually an obscure grain of truth in most effective con jobs. > > "The artifact bears a strong resemblance to irregular layered residue >often found in large physical vapor deposition (PVD) coaters. This family >of filming processes includes sputtering, E-beam, and resistively heated >thermal evaporation; all common vacuum processes used widely in industry. >" > >http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/artsparts.htm > >or more conclusively, > >"In 2000, one last revelation came our way on the origin of the artifact. >The combination of bismuth and magnesium had eluded us for four years. But >then one day, we found a reference to an obscure industrial process used >in the refinement of lead. The process, called the Betterton-Krohl >Process, uses molten magnesium floated over the surface of liquid lead. >The magnesium sucks up, or pulls bismuth impurities out of the lead! >Often, the magnesium is used over and over again. " If there is a layer of bismuth around a piece of magnesium that has already been used, how does the above process continue to work? > >But the final nail in the coffin. Another researcher has found that the >isotopic ratios of the two metals is identical to that found on earth to >three decimal points... they say that the chances of two planets in two >different solar systems having exact isotopic ratios that close is so far >beyond computation that it is not even worth the effort... That is a problem ... unless the source of material is within the solar system, and that would not be unexpected, even for explorers from other star systems, especially considering that they would likely be robots. It would be far more economical to ship general purpose fabricators to a new star system (especially ours) and there construct exploration missions, than it would be to transport everything there. > >Having said that... > >I think it would be interesting to find specific geometric zones where >aether effects are either seen prominently, or else excluded....But IMHO >they will NOT be large cavity if that means micron dimensionsI! Look at >the graph on fig3 of the first reference and you will see that things >start getting interesting around 50 nm. First, let me say this theory is not well founded. For one thing, for plates comprised of exactly the same metal, there is no net force produced under this theory. If the two plates are vacuum deposited in the same batch, there is no reason to expect significantly differing compositons. in this case the theory can not even predict which plate will accumulate what charge, or accurately predict how much. For another thing, the theory states that there will be no force at zero K. It completely dismisses the original basis for the ZPE - Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which has not failed despite it being one of the underpinnings of QM, and therefore a physical principle which has withstood thousands of trials. I think one of the largest flaws of the theory is failing to consider a combined effect. Lastly, and far more interestingly, the theory predicts a current between two close plates, especially two plates with differing metal surfaces. This is a source of free energy. We need look no further! Just use micrometer dielectric spheres to separate alternating layers of differing metals, and make a battery out of it. It should spontaneously cool, thus violating The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Excellent! An alternative (but similar) method would involve using compressable spacing elements. In this approach the stack of alternating types of plates would be attracted, compressing the separating members sufficiently to trigger a field effect transister (via some control mechanism, using surface optics changes, affect a strain guage, or piezo, or some other feedback mechanism) to discharge the accumulated voltage, and thus release the tension on the plates, resulting in a sudden expansion of the device. The power gained is then both in electrical form and mechanical form. The sudden expansion could be used to drive a piezoelectric crystal, thus making the output all in electrical form. Even more excellent! Who needs ZPE when there is available such an effective 2nd Law violator. > >To that end I have been collecting various facts and anecdotal reports of >stange happenings and OU in the several nanometer range...not exactly >"large cavity" but within the capabilites of the kind of circuitry etching >done in semiconductor manufacturing. I have concocted a proto-theory for >one or two sizes to use as a starting point > >FULL SPECULATION ALERT And thus we leave the realm of pure speculation to the realm of FULL speculation. We must not be in Kansas anymore... 8^) > >Assuming that the "aether" is hierarchical and that there is some kind of >duality at work, then looking for the most apparent particulate, the >beta-aether particulate, can be attempted in theory. The particulate is >likely to be related to a universal phenomenon that is "hidden" in our >three-space (IOW the progenitor particle is located in a lower fractal of >universal four-space where there is some inter-dimensional crossover). >Therefore, it will most likely bear some relationship to either the proton >or the electron, these being the most prevalent fermions in the universe - >and since only the electron is guaranteed to be everywhere that a variety >of elements coexist, like earth, then let's say that beta-aether is >related to the electron itself in some kind of virtual fashion. You are using terms without either definition or quantification. > >The other particulates for the other hierarchical forms of aether in the >ZPF will be vastly different, and orders of magnitude smaller, so this >speculation only applies to beta-aether. > >Positronium (Ps) is a pure leptonic system consisting of an electron and >its anti-particle, the positron. Unfortunately its lifetime is very short, due to the fact it radiates profusely, thus decaying the orbit prior to self annihilation. >One important feature of Ps is that it is a neutral anti-matter particle. >There is no Coulomb interaction (or at least no obvious one) present which >can mask phase shifts of interest e.g. inertial forces, and this particle >should be Lorentz invariant, therefore the Michelson-Morley experiment >does not invalidate it as being the progenitor of beta-aether. Also, there >would be no virtual Ps/ beta-aether drag on matter, because the virtual >particle normally resides in a higher fractal. > >Virtual Ps What does virtual mean in this context. Fields are supposedly carried by "virtual photons", but what is a virtual particle? >can be said to continually "boil" over into our three-space in proportion >to the "time" that there have been real electrons present in our three >space (5 billion years or so) therefore it acts as a robust, hidden memory >of a timeless past (shades of Sheldrake). Whenever a virtual electron >appears in our three space, along with its virtual counterpart - the >positron, for its characteristic "stay" of 142 nanoseconds, it has >associated with it several wavelengths. These may be the remnants of >*spin* that persist long after the virtual positronium has faded from our >three-space. In effect, the beta-aether is a "Cheshire cat" remnant, a >virtual spin-1 "memory boson" that interacts by spin-effects with matter >at only a certain geometric spatial distance, but which is very robust due >to a constant boiling of virtual positronium in and out of our >three-space. > >In addition to Ps, we must consider *alpha* the fine structure constant >(~1/137) which is the characteristic determinator of how an electron >interacts with normal matter. Therefore, there are two wavelengths of >interest which could be determinative of the size of the beta-aether >particulate and its interaction "zone". > >One is the virtual photon decay wavelength of 6.8 eV (=182.6 nm) and the >other is the optical transition 1s - 2p of 243.1 nm. When we apply the >fine structure constant Apply in what mannner? >to these two we get some interesting higher dimensional "target zones": >1) 1.33 nm (most probable) >2) 1.77 nm (second choice) > >For comparative purposes, this is about a baker's dozen of hydrogen atoms >lined up end-to-end. > >What this means is anybody's guess, but for starters, I would say that >lumps of matter might have a tendency to nucleate around a virtual spin >particulate of 1.33 nm. and that these lumps become metal or ceramic >"crystals" fixed to varying extents, and that this physical property >translates to some degree into what we call tensile strength and other >forms of structural bonding. > >The structure that forms around the nucleating agent, of course, may be >much larger or smaller than the agent itself, as that final size and >geometry is determined by the diameter of the atoms themselves - and such >things as hydrogen bonding, valence electrons, etc. but it seems very >likely that a icosahedron is the preferred geometry (twenty faces, but >each face may have more than one atom/molecule). > >Therefore, using this figure of 1.33 nm as a starting premise, it will be >interesting to see how this hypothesis stacks up over time when applied to >various phenomena that are reported (like van der waals type forces, the >bee's flight in a vacuum, etc). > >BTW the energy of 6.8 eV, which is the preferred starting point for this >speculation exists in the extreme UV range, and is VERY much >interconnected with a number of "free energy" phenomena...like the >hydrino, for instance, although R. Mills does not recognize it yet! > >Regards, > >Jones > Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 02:56:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA31839; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:55:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:55:26 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:00:45 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale Resent-Message-ID: <"WCpul.0.Jn7.DSc6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51267 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 9:55 PM 7/18/3, explorecraft wrote: >Thanx, I found your reply very enlightening. > neutron emission devices. A bit spooky, that...> > >I was hoping such a thing was already for sale. There are no large cap companies producing free energy "gen sets". Until there are, and they are sold under warranty by major distributers, like Sears or Walmart, it is highly adviseable to get a written bonded guarantee spelling out your exact performance expectations. If you can't get that ... run away!!! >Since it isn't, I might consider manufacturing a few. > >I wonder if there is a ready market for the prototypes? >Anyone interested in buying a 'cold-fusion' genset? > >Of course, the packaging would need to be marked as an > "electrolytic generator" in order to get past the customs cops {;^)> > I would be very interested. Of course, I would expect a written bonded (in the USA) guarantee spelling out my exact performance expectations. I expect this would not be a CF genset because CF and LENR in general, though in my opinion a very real phenomenon, has not produced commercially reliable and viable power. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 04:35:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA31012; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 04:34:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 04:34:21 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.1.20030720122735.00ac9020@pop.onlinehome.de> X-Sender: cc8592609-688@pop.onlinehome.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 13:38:32 +0200 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Huffman Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vgr0q3.0.Pa7.yud6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51268 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Ahoy Horace! At 09:12 18.07.2003 -0800, you wrote: >At 9:21 AM 7/18/3, Michael Huffman wrote: > > Even without the nuclear > >material, this machine has been proven to deliver 2 1/2 times the volume of > >steam that a normal boiler does with the same energy input. You can do > >this with any cavitation reactor. > >Could you clarify what you mean by this? > >If there is anything that we can do with 100 percent efficiency it is boil >water. This statement seems to imply cavitation reactors produce a COP of >about 2.5. The expericence with the Yousmar proved otherwise. One way to boil water is to add thermal energy to it, and yes, we can do that with very close to 100% efficiency, however that is not the only way to do it. The same is true of heating houses. We can put an electric resistence heater inside one, and provided that the house is well insulated, the contents of the house will reach the desired temperature with nearly 100% efficiency. We can, however, also use a heat pump to heat a house and achieve exactly the same results, but with a much lower amount of energy input. The difference is in the technique. Cavitation reactors use the Casimir effect to hammer liquid water into tiny fractions of what a normal resistance heater can with the same energy input. The resulting steam or gas from a cavitation reactor is actually comprised of many more individual H2O molecules and HO radicals, as opposed to the lighter-than-air, multi-molecular H2O clusters that result from normal resistance heating. The gas emerging from a cavitation reactor is generally much drier, is much more reactive, chemically, and has a much larger volume. Jones Beene has been posting some wonderful stuff on the more recent research into the science of water, and the existence of these "water clusters" or mega-molecules is finally being proved to the point where most modern scientists are being convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt. The same story was true of clathrates not too long before. The old steam tables and CRC reaction tables still apply, but not to the entire spectrum of conditions to which water can be subjected. As for the Yousmar, I am assuming that you are referring to the test performed by Scott Little on this group sometime back in '94 or so. That machine, as it was delivered, was only a part of what was being sold by the manufacturer. The inventor, Uri Potapov, pretty much ignored all pleas made by this group for help, as well. As I recall, there was at no point any test performed to see if the machine even cavitated water. Only a number of calorimetry tests were performed, and those were of a very doubtful scientific value. Scott (and most of the rest of us for that matter) was just beginning to learn the science of calorimetry, and all of the practical issues and obstacles involved. As a learning experience, it was marvelous. As a test, well... the word "entertaining" is probably the most kind description. To his credit, Scott did use the experience to subsequently produce a number of high quality calorimetry testing environments. The experience with the Yousmar proved a lot of things, nearly all of them having to do with human nature. Hope this clarifies things at least a little bit, Knuke From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 05:20:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA12171; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:20:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:20:03 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: where can I get some pure potash Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:21:51 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA12133 Resent-Message-ID: <"9Cz-q1.0.5-2.oZe6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51269 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:40:52 EDT, you wrote: >Anyone have a thought where I can get some pure potash? --- http://www.ipcmos.com/goods/ -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 05:36:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA17308; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:36:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 05:36:01 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: where can I get some pure potash Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:37:50 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA17260 Resent-Message-ID: <"nvAEl2.0.FE4.noe6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51270 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:40:52 EDT, you wrote: >Anyone have a thought where I can get some pure potash? --- Or, http://www.alfa.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L063DE36A49020600D525049+ALF+ENG -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 07:42:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA31310; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:41:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1A9D22.A4F14D00@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:57:05 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: LENR commercial products for sale References: <5.2.0.9.1.20030720122735.00ac9020@pop.onlinehome.de> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C904CDD77B2DF1C11339D0F0" Resent-Message-ID: <"cuDf91.0.8f7.Deg6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51271 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C904CDD77B2DF1C11339D0F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Huffman wrote: > Ahoy Horace! > > At 09:12 18.07.2003 -0800, you wrote: > >At 9:21 AM 7/18/3, Michael Huffman wrote: > > > Even without the nuclear > > >material, this machine has been proven to deliver 2 1/2 times the volume of > > >steam that a normal boiler does with the same energy input. You can do > > >this with any cavitation reactor. > > > >Could you clarify what you mean by this? > > > >If there is anything that we can do with 100 percent efficiency it is boil > >water. This statement seems to imply cavitation reactors produce a COP of > >about 2.5. The expericence with the Yousmar proved otherwise. > > One way to boil water is to add thermal energy to it, and yes, we can do > that with very close to 100% efficiency, however that is not the only way > to do it. The same is true of heating houses. We can put an electric > resistence heater inside one, and provided that the house is well > insulated, the contents of the house will reach the desired temperature > with nearly 100% efficiency. We can, however, also use a heat pump to heat > a house and achieve exactly the same results, but with a much lower amount > of energy input. The difference is in the technique. > > Cavitation reactors use the Casimir effect to hammer liquid water into > tiny fractions of what a normal resistance heater can with the same energy > input. The resulting steam or gas from a cavitation reactor is actually > comprised of many more individual H2O molecules and HO radicals, as opposed > to the lighter-than-air, multi-molecular H2O clusters that result from > normal resistance heating. The gas emerging from a cavitation reactor is > generally much drier, is much more reactive, chemically, and has a much > larger volume. > > Jones Beene has been posting some wonderful stuff on the more recent > research into the science of water, and the existence of these "water > clusters" or mega-molecules is finally being proved to the point where most > modern scientists are being convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt. The same > story was true of clathrates not too long before. The old steam tables and > CRC reaction tables still apply, but not to the entire spectrum of > conditions to which water can be subjected. > > As for the Yousmar, I am assuming that you are referring to the test > performed by Scott Little on this group sometime back in '94 or so. That > machine, as it was delivered, was only a part of what was being sold by the > manufacturer. The inventor, Uri Potapov, pretty much ignored all pleas > made by this group for help, as well. As I recall, there was at no point > any test performed to see if the machine even cavitated water. Only a > number of calorimetry tests were performed, and those were of a very > doubtful scientific value. Scott (and most of the rest of us for that > matter) was just beginning to learn the science of calorimetry, and all of > the practical issues and obstacles involved. As a learning experience, it > was marvelous. As a test, well... the word "entertaining" is probably the > most kind description. To his credit, Scott did use the experience to > subsequently produce a number of high quality calorimetry testing > environments. The experience with the Yousmar proved a lot of things, > nearly all of them having to do with human nature. I would like to point out that Potapov came to Los Alamos with his Yousmar and the machine was installed and tested according to his specifications and run in his presence. It did nothing unusual. A similar machine was tested at ENECO. It also did nothing unusual. The considerable experience indicates that when run according to the manufactures specifications, noting unusual happens. In short, the unusual claims have not been experienced by anyone who has tried the method. In addition, Potapov, with whom I discussed the method, does not seem to know how the machine works. Nevertheless, he can come up with dozens of reasons why it fails a test. Ed Ed > > > Hope this clarifies things at least a little bit, > Knuke --------------C904CDD77B2DF1C11339D0F0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="storms2.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="storms2.vcf" begin:vcard n:; tel;work:505 988 3673 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html org:Energy K. System adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html version:2.1 email;internet:storms2@ix.netcom.com x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Edmund Storms end:vcard --------------C904CDD77B2DF1C11339D0F0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 08:28:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA13796; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:28:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:28:08 -0700 Message-ID: <20030720152805.52645.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:28:05 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Pre-Scientific Americans To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718174520.027fa728@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"2QTV_2.0.KN3.7Kh6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51272 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: combine that to the bush policy of assigning non scientists to science oversight comittees... science in its truest aspect is amoral. conservatives, in particular, are very moral, as in they have lots of morals and mores. teh problem comes from them not realizing that morality is truly subjective, and from them trying to push their morality on others. many conservatives (the religious right particularly) are quite aware of the scientific method of thinking, and quite honestly regard its as an evil akin to satanism. the problem with the article presented us (nicely written btw) is that you are assuming that after learning about this objective amoral worldview of science, that everyone would automaticcally embrace it in some utopian scientific world. aint gonna happen. many of these conservatives( and some of the irrational left also) are quite aware of the rules of logic and scientific thinking. they CHOOSE to ignore them. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 09:08:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA29377; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:08:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:08:10 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c34ed8$db16c1b0$f859ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.2.0.9.1.20030720122735.00ac9020@pop.onlinehome.de> <3F1A9D22.A4F14D00@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: LENR commercial products for sale Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:05:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"xxgtF2.0.xA7.fvh6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51273 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: > > As for the Yousmar, I am assuming that you are referring to the test > > performed by Scott Little on this group sometime back in '94 or so. That > > machine, as it was delivered, was only a part of what was being sold by the > > manufacturer. The inventor, Uri Potapov, pretty much ignored all pleas > > made by this group for help, as well. As I recall, there was at no point > > any test performed to see if the machine even cavitated water. Only a > > number of calorimetry tests were performed, and those were of a very > > doubtful scientific value. Scott (and most of the rest of us for that > > matter) was just beginning to learn the science of calorimetry, and all of > > the practical issues and obstacles involved. As a learning experience, it > > was marvelous. As a test, well... the word "entertaining" is probably the > > most kind description. To his credit, Scott did use the experience to > > subsequently produce a number of high quality calorimetry testing > > environments. The experience with the Yousmar proved a lot of things, > > nearly all of them having to do with human nature. > > I would like to point out that Potapov came to Los Alamos with his Yousmar and > the machine was installed and tested according to his specifications and run in > his presence. It did nothing unusual. A similar machine was tested at ENECO. > It also did nothing unusual. The considerable experience indicates that when run > according to the manufactures specifications, noting unusual happens. In short, > the unusual claims have not been experienced by anyone who has tried the method. > In addition, Potapov, with whom I discussed the method, does not seem to know how > the machine works. Nevertheless, he can come up with dozens of reasons why it > fails a test. > > Ed Peter Gluck accompanied Potopov on that trip as a interpreter. On a later visit to my home, Peter & I discussed the affair. I asked why Potopov did not bring a complete tested unit instead of a subassembly. Peter related that a) the US does not have 50 Hertz power to run the motor and b) the US has superior motors and facilities. I was in correspondence with Peter at the time and no mention was made of the assumption of no 50 Hz power. The question was not even asked. I don't know if LANL has frequency converters as part of their facilities, but such are certainly available in the US and can be rented with due notice and nominal expense. As a result, much of the allocated time was wasted in getting adapter parts made, etc. Potopov also assumed he would pay a stiff duty importing the whole functioning unit. I don't know details, but equipment is routinely brought in for trade shows, etc., and so long as it is taken out, there is no duty charged. So part of the story here is assumptions and poor communication and the result that the device was not tested under "exactly" the conditions at home, like many attempts to duplicate the F&P Effect. Potopov went with Frank Zidnarsic to his home in western Pennsylvania where after further protracted experiments no OU effects were reported. When I visited Scott Little's lab a few years ago, he showed me the recirculation assembly of the Yusmar they tested. I have no information about how good a replication of Potopov's operating conditions were achieved. Scott has not succeeded in replicating LENR or BLP processes. He has built a good calorimeter. One could note that apparently Potopov had a thriving business making room heaters. As the motor and cavitation assembly were in the room, assuredly it was at least 100% efficient and customers could be happy. One could further note that it is not necessary for the inventor to understand how a device works for it to produce a real effect. After all these years, there is yet an accepted theory for LENR. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 12:23:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA12425; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:22:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:22:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:22:20 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.1.20030720122735.00ac9020@pop.onlinehome.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yhzoD1.0.-13.klk6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51274 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Michael Huffman wrote: > Cavitation reactors use the Casimir effect to hammer liquid water into > tiny fractions of what a normal resistance heater can with the same energy > input. The resulting steam or gas from a cavitation reactor is actually > comprised of many more individual H2O molecules and HO radicals, as opposed > to the lighter-than-air, multi-molecular H2O clusters that result from > normal resistance heating. The gas emerging from a cavitation reactor is > generally much drier, is much more reactive, chemically, and has a much > larger volume. Hey Knuke! Have you seen this one: Bubbles from *between* electrodes http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html I wonder if that gas is just H2 and O2 and H2O, or if it's something weird. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 18:16:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA07538; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:15:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:15:36 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:17:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Context..... where can I get some pure potash In-Reply-To: <6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"rVAVg1.0.ir1.uwp6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51275 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Frank, This is a simple request.... up to a point, the context makes a difference. What is the 'potash' going to be used for? Depending on the context which the word is used and the time frame and general discipline of the text potash can have more than one meaning. The varied meanings of potash include but are not limited to: Potassium based alkali Sodium based alkali Mixed Potassium-Sodium based alkali Wood ash (other plant matter may be specified) Primarily "potash" implies Potassium based alkali The Potassium based alkali may take the form or forms of the following as single or mixed compounds and-or may be found in the form or solution and-or paste, as follows: 1] Potassium Oxide or Oxides based alkali 2] Potassium Hydroxide based alkali NOTE: This Hydroxide form is the closest to the "classical" definition of ""POTASH"" 3] Potassium Metal or Elemental Potassium This can be purchased at any of several types of markets from plant food, to farm supplies, swimming pool chemicals, industrial chemicals supply. Lye is sodium hydroxide .... if you context is as Potassium Hydroxide, or item [2] then you may find this as potassium or potash lye. A little context may help to find exactly what you need. JH On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > Anyone have a thought where I can get some pure potash? > > Frank Znidarsic > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 19:35:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA09019; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:34:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:34:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1B5145.8312B42C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:34:45 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Cold Fusion in Rumania Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9Qmki1.0.rC2.f4r6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51276 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: July 20, 2003 Vortex, A long time active supporter and believer of the Cold Fusion effect, emeritus Dr. Peter Gluck is currently fully engaged in a Rumanian information web site <>. It is easy to find via Google. Although written in Rumanian, it has many links to English web sites. Take a visit, and communicate with him in English with updates on the cold fusion scene. He is familiar with the active LENR/CANR web site maintained by Jed Rothwell. Perhaps we will do well to learn Rumanian ourselves since the country may become the new base for U.S./NATO activities. -ak- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 20:20:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA30332; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:20:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:20:09 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:25:31 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: escribe down? Resent-Message-ID: <"Khzez.0.sP7.elr6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51277 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have not been able to connect to for an extended period. Anyone else able to reach it? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 22:24:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA19501; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:23:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:23:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:28:37 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: ZPF thruster Resent-Message-ID: <"k8pEu2.0.Ym4.BZt6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51278 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: By layering thin ZPF exclusion zones into many-layered thin foil, it is assumed a large part of the the ZPF can excluded from the passing through the foil. Such a foil is thus highly ZPF reflective and can be assembled into ZPF waveguides. A wide range of ZPF optical devices can thus be made. The object of this design is to provide a device that passes more ZPF radiation, of a given frequency, in one direction than another. Fig. 1 shows one approach to such a design, drawn in "connect the dots" fashion. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o <----(P_1) (P_2)----> o o o o o (P_3)----> ---central axis--- Hole <----(P_4) o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o Fig. 1 - Laterally compressed cross-section diagram of asymmetric waveguide - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fig. 1 is highly compressed in the lateral (X axis) direction. The cross section shown is rotated about the central x axis to form the device shape, which is essentially that of a coaxial waveguide, with an interior diameter that diminishes from left to right. The idea is that the waveguide gradually condenses the photon stream coming from the left (e.g. P2 and P_3) so that it exits the central hole at the right end of the device. It is assumed that most of the radiation moving in directions other than the x axis can be ignored, as that radiation, on average, will be reflected so as to produce no net thrust. It is expected that, for the design wavelength, at least 70 percent of the momentum of the incoming photons from the left which enter the waveguide, with an angle to the central axis of 3 degrees or less, will be carried to the right with them as they pass through the hole. All photons incoming from the right at a similar angle to the axis will exit to the left if they enter through the hole, else will be reflected back to the right by the flat right end of the device. The device dimensions are assumed much larger than the wavelengths excluded by the foil. Given the radius of the hole to be r_1 and the outer radius of the device to be r2, the area A of the flat refelective back of the device is given by A_1 = Pi * ( (r_2)^2 - (r_1)^2) The percent of ZPF photons involved (vs those in a typical Casimir effect) can be determined by examining the area on a unit sphere circumscribed by a 3 degree circle, which is approximately U_1 = Pi*SIN(1.5 deg * (Pi radians/180 deg.)^2 = 2.1527x10^-3 units of area vs half the area of a unit sphere: U_2 = (1/2)*4*(Pi)*(1)^2 U_2 = 2 * Pi units of area and the ratio is: U_1/U2 = (2.1527x10^-3)/(2 Pi) = 3.426x10^-4 The ZPF pressure from the left, since 70 percent of the photons go through, will be roughly 30 percent of the ZPF pressure for the area A_2 involved Area A_2 is given by: A_2 = Pi * (r_2)^2 The ZPF pressure involved in this case is given by: P = (3.426x10^-4) * (4.167x10^-3) * Pi * h * c * d^-4 P = (3.426x10^-4) * (4.167x10^-3) * Pi * h * c * d^-4 P = (8.91x10^-31 J m) * d^-4 where d is 1/2 the design wavelength. If d is given in meters the result is in Pa. For example, if d is 1x10^-8 m, then the design wavelength is 2x10^-8 m, and P = 89.1 Pa = 0.102 kg-f/m^2. the net force on our device (to the left) is given by F = P * A_1 - (0.3) P * A_2 If we assume r_1 = (1/10) (r_2) then A_1 = Pi * ( (r_2)^2 - (r_1)^2) = .99 A_2 and the net force is given by: F = P * (0.99) A_2 - (0.3) P * A_2 F = P * (0.69) A_2 Using our design wavelength of 2x10^-8 m, and an area A_2 of 1 m^2, we have F = (0.102 kg-f/m^2) * (0.69) * (1 m)^2 F = 0.07 kg-F or about 70 grams of force, which would be very useful, since no energy is supplied at all, and the foil structure should be thin and light. In practice, thrust pods of any desired size could be made by arraying many minute ZPF thrusters. In this way a pair of (or more) thrust pods could be made that can be aimed so as to counter-act each other to eliminate net thrust, and then the mutual angle manipulated to create any desired net thrust vector. The main problem with this idea is that all the forces are not fully accounted. There are forces on the constricting cone. This is assumed to be largely balanced by photons going the other way, but not entirely. However, on the other side of the coin, the reflectivity of the ZPF shield foil might be made to approach 100 percent. Nearly all the ZPF photons coming in from the left end should exit the hole to the right. There is also the question of the momentum vectors of the photons exiting the hole. They will not be exiting at the small angle at which they entered. Their net right directed momentum will thus be reduced. The inherent assumption of getting 70 percent of the incoming momentum from the left exiting to the right may be too optimistic. Of further interest is that much lower frequencies can be used, and the thrust is proportional to the frequency to the 4th power. Further, the foil can be designed to exclude multiple frequencies, and the thrusts for each such frequency excluded add together. If the above estimation is even very rougly correct, then thrust pods can be made that exert massive forces without input power. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 20 22:46:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA28091; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:44:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:44:56 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: where can I get some pure potash Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 02:05:43 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6f.3afda87d.2c4b6944@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"smDq1.0.rs6.Ott6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51279 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank. Depends on your definition of pure... You can get a reasonably pure grade of material from these folks, very good pricing. http://www.chemistrystore.com/PotassiumCarbonate.htm Or order from Alfa as John Fields suggested for the insanely ultrapure stuff. Heck, they'll spec it for you if you've got sufficient coin. K. -----Original Message----- From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 11:41 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: where can I get some pure potash Anyone have a thought where I can get some pure potash? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 02:14:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA29927; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 02:13:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 02:13:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c34f68$3ca0f380$0300a8c0@ggrf30j> Reply-To: "Nick Palmer" From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Subject: Re: escribe down? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:12:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"esscu3.0.XJ7.dww6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51280 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: < for an extended period. Anyone else able to reach it?>> No, I can't either... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 06:05:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA30066; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:04:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:04:23 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:09:41 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Resent-Message-ID: <"7GIHS2.0.ZL7.NJ-6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51281 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One problem with the large cavity ZPF device concept is that ZPF radiation is already inside the large cavity when the ZPF window is closed. Assume for a moment the cavity foil is only 99 percent effective in shielding the design frequencie(s) from the cavity. The trapped radiation bouces back and forth inside the cavity, with one percent escaping per some unit of time. Meanwhile, however, the same is true from the outside, but in reverse. During the same unit of time, one percent of the outside radiation enters, thus exactly replacing the radiation leaving the cavity. This problem can possibly be handled by frequency doubling or frequency halving waveguides within the cavity. Waveguides can be made by creating channels of width 2d surrounded by a layer with gap width d. By shifting the design frequency radiation inside the cavity, the internal ZPF radiation can escape selectively. The symmetry is broken. The problem here is making waveguide circuits that do not work in reverse to refill the box by downshifting or upshifting ZPF radiation inside the box that is not shielded from the box. Alternatively, ZPF radiation could be shited so as to *fill* the box and increase the desired effect within the box, e.g. inertial mass. Any means of breaking the symmetry is useful. There is also the problem of making sure the waveguide circuits work with incoherent radiation. An alternative method to consider for breaking the symmetry might be to use doppler shift. This can be accomplished by use of fast moving elements within the box, like electrons within a magnetron, for example. Again the problem is symmetry. Electrons in a magnetron follow essentially closed paths. For trapped waves shifted so as to escape, other waves will be shifted in reverse so as to fill the box. It is also true that a single electron moving forward shifts the frequency of radiation approaching from the front while simultaneously down-shifting radiation approaching it from the back. The design posted in the "ZPF Thruster" thread (hopefully) in part makes use of the index of refraction to break symmetry, by using the critical angle to permit concentration of radiation coming from one direction. Perhaps one means of breaking the symmetry is to make a large cylindrical cavity, and to rotate it about its major axis. The tendency then is to deflect radiation, both from within and without the box, tangentially. This should apply a torque to the box, making it appear to violate conservation of angular momentum? Another means of emptying the box might be to include in the box a large volume of additional ZPF window material. The idea is to turn on the large volume exclusion zone prior to closing the thin outer window to the box. Once the box is sealed, then the large volume window can be turned off. The result is that the density of the trapped radiation is reduced, thus breaking the symmetry from the beginning. The impalance in radition flow would then quickly refill the box, so the large volume device would have to be capable of being switched very rapidly to keep the box evacuated. Problems, problems ... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 07:23:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA06387; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:21:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:21:52 -0700 Message-ID: <20030721142145.42470.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:21:45 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: RE: LENR commercial products for sale To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"GFi3S2.0.YZ1._R_6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51282 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hmm, intersting. one would think that a superflous amount of electrons would .......wait. shit!!! water SHOULD be a gas. the only reason that its not is due to hydrogen bonding (the o molecules are attracted slightly to the h molecules of other h20 molecules) an extra amount of electrons WOULD interfere with hydrogen bonding, thus forcing water to become the gas it should be! this is an amazing discovery, because the increased surface area could also help explain primordial ooze! if lightning bolts caused similar pockets of browns gas (if browns gas IS non steam gaseous water) it would change the probability of organic chemical creation. a LOT. this... i gotta look into this. THANKS BILL!! alex --- William Beaty wrote: > On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Michael Huffman wrote: > > Cavitation reactors use the Casimir effect to > hammer liquid water into > > tiny fractions of what a normal resistance heater > can with the same energy > > input. The resulting steam or gas from a > cavitation reactor is actually > > comprised of many more individual H2O molecules > and HO radicals, as opposed > > to the lighter-than-air, multi-molecular H2O > clusters that result from > > normal resistance heating. The gas emerging from > a cavitation reactor is > > generally much drier, is much more reactive, > chemically, and has a much > > larger volume. > > Hey Knuke! Have you seen this one: > > Bubbles from *between* electrodes > > http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html > > > I wonder if that gas is just H2 and O2 and H2O, or > if it's something > weird. > > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) > ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE > HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com > http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby > projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, > tesla coils, weird sci > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 07:45:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24372; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030721102450.02e0acf0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:43:37 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Pre-Scientific Americans In-Reply-To: <20030720152805.52645.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030718174520.027fa728@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"5zBoh2.0.ky5.1n_6_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51283 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: alexander hollins wrote: >science in its truest aspect is amoral. I think so. >conservatives, in particular, are very moral, as in >they have lots of morals and mores. I do not think they are "more moral" than liberals. Certainly not more than me! > teh problem comes >from them not realizing that morality is truly >subjective, and from them trying to push their >morality on others. I have not noticed they are more inclined to do this than left-wing people are. As I said, I think there are many rational, scientific, conservative people, and the only reason the irrational ones are conspicuous today is because they are in power. >the problem with the >article presented us (nicely written btw) is that you >are assuming that after learning about this objective >amoral worldview of science, that everyone would >automaticcally embrace it in some utopian scientific >world. aint gonna happen. I agree. My point was that we sometimes naively assume it has already happened. Scientific thinking has empowered the human race more than any other mode of thought, and it plays an essential role in our civilization, yet strangely enough it is not widely embraced. Many people are actively hostile toward it, or ignorant of it. This is drastically different from other important guiding principles of civilization such as law, religion, economics, the principles of public health and so on. > many of these >conservatives( and some of the irrational left also) >are quite aware of the rules of logic and scientific >thinking. they CHOOSE to ignore them. I wonder. Do they choose to ignore them, or do they simply fail to understand what all the fuss is about? Perhaps they think of science the way I think of advanced particle physics: as something far removed from my concerns; as a kind of narrow, specialized field that has no larger significance. I think that Gingrich understands objectivity in principle, but he thinks of it as a specialized tool for experts in esoteric research, not as a general tool that also applies to military intelligence. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 07:55:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA22645; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:54:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:54:03 -0700 Message-ID: <20030721145350.12562.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:53:50 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Pre-Scientific Americans To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030721102450.02e0acf0@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"6bthu1.0.YX5.Aw_6_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51284 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: by more moral, i mean they have a larger number of morals. more rules. that doesnt make them better people, if anything, being more moral makes them WORSE people (imo) the thing is, what i was trying to say before, by demanding that everyone SHOULD think scientifically, and that that would solve all our problems, YOURE doing the same thing they are... you simply cant seem to believe that someone who has had ample training in scientific thought could actually reject it and choose to live via a different religion than yours. think on that for a while before replying, please. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > alexander hollins wrote: > > >science in its truest aspect is amoral. > > I think so. > > > >conservatives, in particular, are very moral, as in > >they have lots of morals and mores. > > I do not think they are "more moral" than liberals. > Certainly not more than me! > > > > teh problem comes > >from them not realizing that morality is truly > >subjective, and from them trying to push their > >morality on others. > > I have not noticed they are more inclined to do this > than left-wing people > are. As I said, I think there are many rational, > scientific, conservative > people, and the only reason the irrational ones are > conspicuous today is > because they are in power. > > > >the problem with the > >article presented us (nicely written btw) is that > you > >are assuming that after learning about this > objective > >amoral worldview of science, that everyone would > >automaticcally embrace it in some utopian > scientific > >world. aint gonna happen. > > I agree. My point was that we sometimes naively > assume it has already > happened. Scientific thinking has empowered the > human race more than any > other mode of thought, and it plays an essential > role in our civilization, > yet strangely enough it is not widely embraced. Many > people are actively > hostile toward it, or ignorant of it. This is > drastically different from > other important guiding principles of civilization > such as law, religion, > economics, the principles of public health and so > on. > > > > many of these > >conservatives( and some of the irrational left > also) > >are quite aware of the rules of logic and > scientific > >thinking. they CHOOSE to ignore them. > > I wonder. Do they choose to ignore them, or do they > simply fail to > understand what all the fuss is about? Perhaps they > think of science the > way I think of advanced particle physics: as > something far removed from my > concerns; as a kind of narrow, specialized field > that has no larger > significance. I think that Gingrich understands > objectivity in principle, > but he thinks of it as a specialized tool for > experts in esoteric research, > not as a general tool that also applies to military > intelligence. > > - Jed > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 08:48:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA16580; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:46:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:46:37 -0700 Message-ID: <001e01c34f9e$d251a920$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: Subject: Brown's gas mystery : was LENR commercial products for sale Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:43:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA16537 Resent-Message-ID: <"6o3eQ1.0.x24.Th07_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51285 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A BillB writes: > Hey Knuke! Have you seen this one: > > Bubbles from *between* electrodes > http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html > > > I wonder if that gas is just H2 and O2 and H2O, or if it's something > weird. Looks like George Wiseman is getting away from the "mono-atomic" explanation (which is still partially correct, despite this abdication), and is coming around to a similar (but slightly flawed IMHO) understanding of "water-fuel" to that which a few of us, who have been focusing on water-fuel anomalies, have been posting recently. He is claiming this new "revision" as his own theory, despite many of the details having been made public to vortex and other water-related sites that Wiseman posts to, some months before his updated material. Who cares? He deserves credit for years of perseverance in the face of constant criticism by skeptics, if nothing else....even if he did also "borrow" the underlying electrolytic device from Brown, Knudtson, or whomever. Wiseman now is saying, "It now seems that Brown's Gas may NOT be mono-atomic hydrogen and oxygen (which will make the nay-sayers happy) but is instead a special form of WATER; actual water which has had enough electrical energy added to it to form a gas that is NOT steam (this will make the nay-sayers unhappy again)." Bravo. Just a few days ago, I re-posted the similar idea for the nth time to vortex: the observation that the water-fuel which has been used to power internal combustion engines, such as the Dingel conversion, is based on a "captured" aqueous electron in a particular kind of water structure. That structure is becoming better-known now, thanks to Martin Chaplin's marvelous web site on water. Here is the most recent wording of that idea, expanded to encompass Brown's gas. I am rewording it with a focus on Brown's gas so that Wiseman can borrow this info to update his site one more time, and possibly get the explanation more accurate the next time. Here are the details, George: There seems to be an inherent "proto-solid" phase of water, which is present in even liquid water, and takes the form of an icosahedral structure of 280 H2O molecules linked by hydrogen bonds, which coincidentally is just the right size to "capture" a hydrated electron. A good picture, and a compelling explanation of this icosahedral structure is available on Martin Chaplin's site at: http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html It is possible that one of the reasons that hydrated electrons "appear" to have such a short lifetime is that they are captured by this proto-solid structure - that capture being due to the similarity in the icosahedron's exterior dimension to the thermal electron's de Broglie wavelength. The hydrated electron, then would transform into what can be called a large water negative ion with a molecular weight over 5000 and stay that way for some extended time, particularly if there was also nearby a captured and balancing, immobile, positive charge: that being a "trapped proton," actually a hydronium ion. There a number of physical properties of water that are outright peculiar, when compared to similar molecules, some of which properties are absolutely essential to biological life. Most of these have been explained fairly well. There are a few, however, that are open to interpretation. Recently, Prof. Chaplin has updated his web-site with the following: http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html As you can see: ice, water and steam seem to obey power relationships of 12, 8 and 4 respectively when looking at Log-Log gradients. And the fit to the data is almost perfectly linear in those ranges. The most cogent interpretation for this "powers of powers" data is that there are two evenly balanced proto-phases in liquid water (a solid phase and a gas phase). There is NO real liquid phase - only varying admixtures of the solid or the gas proto-phases. The 280 molecule icosahedron then would not quite be eliminated from "real" steam until it gets super-hot, but it would be present to a much higher proportional degree in water "mist" which is not thermally vaporized. In other words Brown's gas is an electrostatically expanded large structure, not a thermally or electrically expanded small structure. The population of that kind of charged vapor mist (electrostatically expanded icosahedra) can be accentuated by the intelligent application of electrical charge and/or by cavitation effects. Or preferably by BOTH. If you are listening to this George, and want to massively increase the production of Brown's gas, USE CAVITATION in addition to electrolysis. It is already being done in laboratories under the name of *sonoelectrochemistry*. How would it work in your setup? The simplest way would be to add layers of piezo transducers placed between the electrode discs. In effect, this would give you a Dingel carburetor, but a much fancier one! Is it likely that this large negative water ion will balance-out the charge involved when a proton is "trapped" in the form of a hydronium ion inside the same icosahedron that captures the hydrated electron, or more likely in an adjoining icosahedron. In either case, the charge would cause the encasement structure to swell in size, just as with any ion. Water will be converted more efficiently by electrolysis into this gaseous fuel (the so-called Brown's gas) by applying a spatially extended electric field. That is, by permitting nascent hydrogen with the enhanced opportunity to be captured by the proto-solid phase of water, instead of forming the diatomic molecule, production of the mixed charge Brown's gas will be maximized. In effect, water is transformed into a previously undescribed (except generically as Brown's gas) acid-like, capacitor-like, molecular gas with a HIGH molecular weight, not low, which in the words of Todd Knudtson is like a 'fluid crystal' or by Wiseman's words - as "electrically expanded water." In effect, we have an acid-clathrate-structure which is also somewhat of a stressed-capacitor. That capacitor-like modality is the likely basis of what has been called the "implosion" phenomenon. It is mostly electrostatic charge cancellation that eventually collapses into liquid phase water, and not combustion, per se, which would form "real" steam. In the case of charge cancellation, the photonic energy is higher and does not couple as well as the IR photons of combustion, therefore one has what looks like implosion rather than explosion, even though more actual energy comes from the implosion. It is just captured further away from the source. As to the molecular weight info on the Eagle site, it is so far off that it is not even worth comment, except to say that BG is very high molecular weight gas and is TRANSITORY, not nearly stable as claimed, and must be used before it decomposes. There have been numerous reports of explosion with BG and aqua-fuel, and anyone who claims otherwise is being somewhat irresponsible and should have a talk with their insurance carrier. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 09:12:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA29106; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:11:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:11:06 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:10:29 EDT Subject: Thanks all for your help with the Potash To: vortex-L@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_f7.2e2b106a.2c4d6a75_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10582 Resent-Message-ID: <"L0Apw2.0.h67.Q217_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51287 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_f7.2e2b106a.2c4d6a75_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks al for helping with the potash. I plan to do some experiments with potash and tungsten. An overview is presented here 3/4 of the way down the page, http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter1.html Frank Znidarsic --part1_f7.2e2b106a.2c4d6a75_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Th= anks al for helping with the potash.  I plan to do some experiments wit= h potash and tungsten.  An overview is presented here 3/4 of the way do= wn the page,

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter1.html

Frank Znidarsic

--part1_f7.2e2b106a.2c4d6a75_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 09:12:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA29011; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:10:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:10:56 -0700 Message-ID: <20030721161046.60463.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:10:46 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Brown's gas mystery : was LENR commercial products for sale To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001e01c34f9e$d251a920$0a016ea8@cpq> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"XV-eX3.0.B57.G217_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51286 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hmmm, what happens if you put it under pressure? --- Jones Beene wrote: > BillB writes: > > > Hey Knuke! Have you seen this one: > > > > Bubbles from *between* electrodes > > > http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html > > > > > > I wonder if that gas is just H2 and O2 and H2O, or > if it's something > > weird. > > > Looks like George Wiseman is getting away from the > "mono-atomic" explanation (which is still partially > correct, despite this abdication), and is coming > around to a similar (but slightly flawed IMHO) > understanding of "water-fuel" to that which a few of > us, who have been focusing on water-fuel anomalies, > have been posting recently. > > He is claiming this new "revision" as his own > theory, despite many of the details having been made > public to vortex and other water-related sites that > Wiseman posts to, some months before his updated > material. Who cares? He deserves credit for years of > perseverance in the face of constant criticism by > skeptics, if nothing else....even if he did also > "borrow" the underlying electrolytic device from > Brown, Knudtson, or whomever. > > Wiseman now is saying, "It now seems that Brown's > Gas may NOT be mono-atomic hydrogen and oxygen > (which will make the nay-sayers happy) but is > instead a special form of WATER; actual water which > has had enough electrical energy added to it to form > a gas that is NOT steam (this will make the > nay-sayers unhappy again)." > > Bravo. Just a few days ago, I re-posted the similar > idea for the nth time to vortex: the observation > that the water-fuel which has been used to power > internal combustion engines, such as the Dingel > conversion, is based on a "captured" aqueous > electron in a particular kind of water structure. > That structure is becoming better-known now, thanks > to Martin Chaplin's marvelous web site on water. > Here is the most recent wording of that idea, > expanded to encompass Brown's gas. I am rewording it > with a focus on Brown's gas so that Wiseman can > borrow this info to update his site one more time, > and possibly get the explanation more accurate the > next time. > > Here are the details, George: > > There seems to be an inherent "proto-solid" phase of > water, which is present in even liquid water, and > takes the form of an icosahedral structure of 280 > H2O molecules linked by hydrogen bonds, which > coincidentally is just the right size to "capture" a > hydrated electron. A good picture, and a compelling > explanation of this icosahedral structure is > available on Martin Chaplin's site at: > http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html > > It is possible that one of the reasons that hydrated > electrons "appear" to have such a short lifetime is > that they are captured by this proto-solid structure > - that capture being due to the similarity in the > icosahedron's exterior dimension to the thermal > electron's de Broglie wavelength. The hydrated > electron, then would transform into what can be > called a large water negative ion with a molecular > weight over 5000 and stay that way for some extended > time, particularly if there was also nearby a > captured and balancing, immobile, positive charge: > that being a "trapped proton," actually a hydronium > ion. > > There a number of physical properties of water that > are outright peculiar, when compared to similar > molecules, some of which properties are absolutely > essential to biological life. Most of these have > been explained fairly well. There are a few, > however, that are open to interpretation. Recently, > Prof. Chaplin has updated his web-site with the > following: > http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html > > As you can see: ice, water and steam seem to obey > power relationships of 12, 8 and 4 respectively when > looking at Log-Log gradients. And the fit to the > data is almost perfectly linear in those ranges. The > most cogent interpretation for this "powers of > powers" data is that there are two evenly balanced > proto-phases in liquid water (a solid phase and a > gas phase). There is NO real liquid phase - only > varying admixtures of the solid or the gas > proto-phases. The 280 molecule icosahedron then > would not quite be eliminated from "real" steam > until it gets super-hot, but it would be present to > a much higher proportional degree in water "mist" > which is not thermally vaporized. In other words > Brown's gas is an electrostatically expanded large > structure, not a thermally or electrically expanded > small structure. The population of that kind of > charged vapor mist (electrostatically expanded > icosahedra) can be accentuated by the intelligent > application of electrical charge and/or by cavitati! > on effects. > > Or preferably by BOTH. If you are listening to this > George, and want to massively increase the > production of Brown's gas, USE CAVITATION in > addition to electrolysis. It is already being done > in laboratories under the name of > *sonoelectrochemistry*. How would it work in your > setup? The simplest way would be to add layers of > piezo transducers placed between the electrode > discs. In effect, this would give you a Dingel > carburetor, but a much fancier one! > > Is it likely that this large negative water ion will > balance-out the charge involved when a proton is > "trapped" in the form of a hydronium ion inside the > same icosahedron that captures the hydrated > electron, or more likely in an adjoining > icosahedron. In either case, the charge would cause > the encasement structure to swell in size, just as > with any ion. Water will be converted more > efficiently by electrolysis into this gaseous fuel > (the so-called Brown's gas) by applying a spatially > extended electric field. That is, by permitting > nascent hydrogen with the enhanced opportunity to be > captured by the proto-solid phase of water, instead > of forming the diatomic molecule, production of the > mixed charge Brown's gas will be maximized. In > effect, water is transformed into a previously > undescribed (except generically as Brown's gas) > acid-like, capacitor-like, molecular gas with a HIGH > molecular weight, not low, which in the words of > Todd Knudtson is like a 'fluid crystal' or by > Wiseman'! > s words - as "electrically expanded water." > > In effect, we have an acid-clathrate-structure which > is also somewhat of a stressed-capacitor. That > capacitor-like modality is the likely basis of what > has been called the "implosion" phenomenon. It is > mostly electrostatic charge cancellation that > eventually collapses into liquid phase water, and > not combustion, per se, which would form "real" > steam. In the case of charge cancellation, the > photonic energy is higher and does not couple as > well as the IR photons of combustion, therefore one > has what looks like implosion rather than explosion, > even though more actual energy comes from the > implosion. It is just captured further away from the > source. > > As to the molecular weight info on the Eagle site, > it is so far off that it is not even worth comment, > except to say that BG is very high molecular weight > gas and is TRANSITORY, not nearly stable as claimed, > and must be used before it decomposes. There have > been numerous reports of explosion with BG and > aqua-fuel, and anyone who claims otherwise is being > somewhat irresponsible and should have a talk with > their insurance carrier. > > Jones > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 11:42:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA16251; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:39:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:39:53 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <3d.32b1c337.2c4d8d51@aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:39:13 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, becyn@hotmail.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3d.32b1c337.2c4d8d51_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"hkm8K3.0.jz3.vD37_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51288 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_3d.32b1c337.2c4d8d51_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/20/2003 8:26:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, becyn@hotmail.com writes: > but I'll be dipped if I > can make sense of his "diagrams". It looks like the arcane writings > of an alchemist to me. > I think I just started to understand how Keely's musical diagrams work. Placed on the top or around the device used to collect energy from the environment by means of horns, and small musical infrasonic and infrared antennas, is a spherical disk much like a sun dial, which has musical tones encoded on it by means of musical antennas and horns, that pull in infrasonic sounds at specified frequencies by means of the size of the antenna and horns, to make the frequencies of the scale at the proper point in the disk, so that the difference between the musical tones on opposite sides of the sphere represent the frequencies needed for implosion of the infrasonic and infrared vacuum energies to cause cavetation or implosion in the vacuum sphere around which the musical tuning notes and devices are placed. Keely has many pictures depicting musical scales in a circle or sphere and shows the connecting lines between the notes which represent the cavetation frequencies of the vacuum infrared heat, quark, and infrasonic particles which Keely calls ether energies. Most piano's and musical scales are not circular but linear, and most musical devices do not work by interference of progressive musical tones in a circular fashion. Keely is using a circular musical or infrasonic instrument that works by interferometry, to pull in weak environmental infrared and infrasonic energies with antennas and horns, to create smaller interferometric frequencies around the circular disk and vacuum ball, which has been tuned properly, which causes small infrared vacuum quark particles to imploded in series to make a fusion reaction to create energy, since implosion in series creates more energy that needed to start the implosion reaction. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_3d.32b1c337.2c4d8d51_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/20/2003 8:26:01 PM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, becyn@hotmail.com writes:

but I'll be dipped if I
can make sense of his "diagrams". It looks like the arcane writings
of an alchemist to me.


I think I just started to understand how Keely's musical diagrams work. = ; Placed on the top or around the device used to collect energy from the env= ironment by means of horns, and small musical infrasonic and infrared antenn= as, is a spherical disk much like a sun dial, which has musical tones encode= d on it by means of musical antennas and horns, that pull in infrasonic soun= ds at specified frequencies by means of the size of the antenna and horns, t= o make the frequencies of the scale at the proper point in the disk, so that= the difference between the musical tones on opposite sides of the sphere re= present the frequencies needed for implosion of the infrasonic and infrared=20= vacuum energies to cause cavetation or implosion in the vacuum sphere around= which the musical tuning notes and devices are placed.   Keely ha= s many pictures depicting musical scales in a circle or sphere and shows the= connecting lines between the notes which represent the cavetation frequenci= es of the vacuum infrared heat, quark, and infrasonic particles which Keely=20= calls ether energies.   Most piano's and musical scales are not ci= rcular but linear, and most musical devices do not work by interference of p= rogressive musical tones in a circular fashion.  Keely is using a circu= lar musical or infrasonic instrument that works by interferometry, to pull i= n weak environmental infrared and infrasonic energies with antennas and horn= s, to create smaller interferometric frequencies around the circular disk an= d vacuum ball, which has been tuned properly, which causes small infrared va= cuum quark particles to imploded in series to make a fusion reaction to crea= te energy, since implosion in series creates more energy that needed to star= t the implosion reaction.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_3d.32b1c337.2c4d8d51_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 11:47:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA19025; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:44:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:44:57 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:50:19 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices Resent-Message-ID: <"gI1e01.0.Bf4.fI37_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51289 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: After selecting a distinct band of the ZPF by use of ZPF planar waveguides, the energy of the selected frequency can be converted to heat by slowly narrowing the waveguide to below the cutoff frequency. Use of high dielectric constant material in the waveguide further increases the impedence and thus heat transfer. Perhaps such a mechanism can be used to directly capture ZPF energy, and/or to empty a ZPF cavity of residual radiation in order to create an inertial drive. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 11:47:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA19674; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:46:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:46:02 -0700 Message-ID: <20030721184557.23992.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:45:57 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3d.32b1c337.2c4d8d51@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"y5XgC2.0._o4.eJ37_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51290 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: where can i get a copy of the diagrams? this sounds interesting. --- ConexTom@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/20/2003 8:26:01 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > becyn@hotmail.com writes: > > > but I'll be dipped if I > > can make sense of his "diagrams". It looks like > the arcane writings > > of an alchemist to me. > > > > I think I just started to understand how Keely's > musical diagrams work. > Placed on the top or around the device used to > collect energy from the environment > by means of horns, and small musical infrasonic and > infrared antennas, is a > spherical disk much like a sun dial, which has > musical tones encoded on it by > means of musical antennas and horns, that pull in > infrasonic sounds at > specified frequencies by means of the size of the > antenna and horns, to make the > frequencies of the scale at the proper point in the > disk, so that the difference > between the musical tones on opposite sides of the > sphere represent the > frequencies needed for implosion of the infrasonic > and infrared vacuum energies to > cause cavetation or implosion in the vacuum sphere > around which the musical > tuning notes and devices are placed. Keely has > many pictures depicting musical > scales in a circle or sphere and shows the > connecting lines between the notes > which represent the cavetation frequencies of the > vacuum infrared heat, quark, > and infrasonic particles which Keely calls ether > energies. Most piano's and > musical scales are not circular but linear, and most > musical devices do not > work by interference of progressive musical tones in > a circular fashion. Keely > is using a circular musical or infrasonic instrument > that works by > interferometry, to pull in weak environmental > infrared and infrasonic energies with > antennas and horns, to create smaller > interferometric frequencies around the > circular disk and vacuum ball, which has been tuned > properly, which causes small > infrared vacuum quark particles to imploded in > series to make a fusion reaction to > create energy, since implosion in series creates > more energy that needed to > start the implosion reaction. > > Baron Von Volsung, HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron, > Email: tom@rhfweb.com > President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal > New Age Production's Inc., HREF="www.rhfweb.com\newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage > Star Haven Community Services, at HREF="www.rhfweb.com\sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh > Radiation Health Foundation Trust at HREF="www.rhfweb.com">www.rhfweb.com > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 12:09:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA04485; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:07:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:07:14 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:06:32 EDT Subject: Re: Large Cavity ZPF devices To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_f8.2ed13f38.2c4d93b8_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"9Ltvo3.0.z51.Xd37_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51291 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_f8.2ed13f38.2c4d93b8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/2003 9:10:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hheffner@mtaonline.net writes: > Perhaps one means of breaking the symmetry is to make a large cylindrical > cavity, and to rotate it about its major axis. The tendency then is to > deflect radiation, both from within and without the box, tangentially. > This should apply a torque to the box, making it appear to violate > conservation of angular momentum? This is what John Keely did in his devices, since he used a large circular vacuum sphere which he rotated in opposition to another rotating infrasonic musically tuned inteferometric sphere which was tuned to the proper frequencies of the ZPF to cause progressive sonic implosion, which also had a connecting wire between the two spheres to communicate, amplify, and share the energy patterns, to collect ZPF energies at the proper frequencies to create a series of implosions which create more energy than is needed to start them from environmental energies. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_f8.2ed13f38.2c4d93b8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/21/2003 9:10:23 AM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, hheffner@mtaonline.net writes:

Perhaps one means of breaking t= he symmetry is to make a large cylindrical
cavity, and to rotate it about its major axis.  The tendency then is to=
deflect radiation, both from within and without the box, tangentially.
This should apply a torque to the box, making it appear to violate
conservation of angular momentum?


This is what John Keely did in his devices, since he used a large circular v= acuum sphere which he rotated in opposition to another rotating infrasonic m= usically tuned inteferometric sphere which was tuned to the proper frequenci= es of the ZPF to cause progressive sonic implosion, which also had a connect= ing wire between the two spheres to communicate, amplify, and share the ener= gy patterns, to collect ZPF energies at the proper frequencies to create a s= eries of implosions which create more energy than is needed to start them fr= om environmental energies. <= BR>

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_f8.2ed13f38.2c4d93b8_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 12:14:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA07295; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:12:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:12:46 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <6a.331e2273.2c4d9508@aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:12:08 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, the_leaking_pen@yahoo.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6a.331e2273.2c4d9508_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"I05uQ.0.qn1.ji37_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51292 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_6a.331e2273.2c4d9508_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/2003 3:02:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_leaking_pen@yahoo.com writes: > where can i get a copy of the diagrams? this sounds > interesting. This book below has all of the Keely musical interferometric diagrams in them with the octave tables for the proper frequencies to create implostion for water, air, and vacuum zpf energies. 1. Universal Laws Never Before Revealed: John Keely's Secrets, Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration by Dale Pond, John Keely, Nikola Tesla, and Edgar Cayce and severn others, ISBN 1-57282-003-9, The Message Company, 505-474-0998 Copyright 1996 Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_6a.331e2273.2c4d9508_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/21/2003 3:02:42 PM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, the_leaking_pen@yahoo.com writes:

where can i get a copy of the d= iagrams?  this sounds
interesting.


This book below has all of the Keely musical interferometric diagrams in the= m with the octave tables for the proper frequencies to create implostion for= water, air, and vacuum zpf energies.

1. Universal Laws Never Before Revealed: John Keely's Secrets, Understanding= and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration by Dale Pond, John Keely, Ni= kola Tesla, and Edgar Cayce and severn others, ISBN 1-57282-003-9, The Messa= ge Company, 505-474-0998 Copyright 1996

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_6a.331e2273.2c4d9508_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 13:14:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA08061; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:10:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:10:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1C4921.6000908@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:12:17 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: New items at ICCF10.org References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716122201.027310a0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716122201.027310a0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4IzHh3.0.sz1.BZ47_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51293 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > See new items: > > * Short Course on LENR > > * Poster > > http://iccf10.org/ Nice poster. I have it hanging on my wall in the office. Is that dragonslayer in the background St. George or Don Quixote? :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 13:18:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA11986; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:15:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:15:56 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030721161415.02e53e40@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:15:50 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New items at ICCF10.org In-Reply-To: <3F1C4921.6000908@rtpatlanta.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030716122201.027310a0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030716122201.027310a0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"j4EAF3.0.zw2.xd47_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51294 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Is that dragonslayer in the background St. George or Don Quixote? :-) The latter, I think. By the way, I added something else relating to ICCF-10, and forgot to mention it here: http://lenr-canr.org/ICCF10Summaries.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 13:56:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA03720; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:54:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:54:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1C534F.9010403@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:55:43 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPF thruster and The Guardian References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E1NUP1.0.2w.tB57_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51295 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >If the above estimation is even >very rougly correct, then thrust pods can be made that exert massive forces >without input power. > Either this is a coincidence or someone at the Guardian is reading your posts: http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/farout/story/0,13028,999278,00.html Zero point energy Mark Pilkington Thursday July 17, 2003 The Guardian As several international probes struggle valiantly to reach the relatively neighbourly planet Mars, a small coterie of astrophysicists is quietly considering how humankind might venture beyond our own solar system. The key to the problem is power: what kind of fuel will be stable and plentiful enough to take humans into deep space? Among the more sober possibilities are ion propulsion, using xenon gas for fuel, which sent Nasa's Deep Space 1 probe a respectable 185m miles or so, and solar sails, blown by photons from the Sun. Neither of these is ideal: xenon, though stable, is exhaustible, and solar sails would only be able to carry very small, light craft. One theoretical energy source, however, would fit the bill perfectly. It's as accessible in outer space as it would be in the Outer Hebrides because it exists, according to its advocates, everywhere, immersing everyone and everything in a foaming sea of energy. Early quantum physicists theorised that all space, even the vacuum of outer space, contains a constantly bubbling field of electromagnetic energy, quantum fluctuations thought to be created by "virtual" photons constantly winking in and out of existence. This is zero point energy (ZPE), so called because it would still exist at absolute zero - minus 273C - when the atomic motions that generate thermal energy are at their slowest. Physicists John Wheeler and Richard Feynman calculated that there is enough such energy in the vacuum inside a single light bulb to boil all the world's oceans. The challenge, currently being investigated by several teams, is how to tap it. Some researchers have also suggested an intriguing connection between ZPE, inertia and gravitational pull. The push you feel while slowing down or turning when driving may actually be caused by ZPE fluctuations. A greater understanding of how to manipulate ZPE may one day lead to the control of gravitational and inertial forces, leading to new forms of propulsion and a revolution in space travel. The number of physicists studying ZPE is small, and most are still operating at the theoretical level, but a breakthrough could one day provide the energy of the future. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 14:47:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA07403; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:44:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:44:50 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <133.22eaf6a1.2c4db8ac@aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:44:12 EDT Subject: Re: where can I get some pure potash To: knagel@gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_133.22eaf6a1.2c4db8ac_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10638 Resent-Message-ID: <"OTKSg3.0.bp1.Ix57_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51296 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_133.22eaf6a1.2c4db8ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like this chemistity store http://www.chemistrystore.com/PotassiumCarbonate.htm thank you K --part1_133.22eaf6a1.2c4db8ac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like this chemistity store

http://www.chemistrystore.com/PotassiumCarbonate.htm



thank you K --part1_133.22eaf6a1.2c4db8ac_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 14:53:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA09375; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:49:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:49:08 -0700 Message-ID: <20030721214859.66524.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:48:59 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ZPF thruster and The Guardian To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F1C534F.9010403@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"yYXsE2.0.PI2.K_57_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51297 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: SWEET! somewhat mainstream media taking a serious approach to alt energy research. --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote: > > >If the above estimation is even > >very rougly correct, then thrust pods can be made > that exert massive forces > >without input power. > > > > Either this is a coincidence or someone at the > Guardian is reading your > posts: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/farout/story/0,13028,999278,00.html > > Zero point energy > > > > Mark Pilkington > > Thursday July 17, 2003 > > The Guardian > > > > As several international probes struggle valiantly > to reach the > relatively neighbourly planet Mars, a small coterie > of astrophysicists > is quietly considering how humankind might venture > beyond our own solar > system. > > > > The key to the problem is power: what kind of fuel > will be stable and > plentiful enough to take humans into deep space? > Among the more sober > possibilities are ion propulsion, using xenon gas > for fuel, which sent > Nasa's Deep Space 1 probe a respectable 185m miles > or so, and solar > sails, blown by photons from the Sun. Neither of > these is ideal: xenon, > though stable, is exhaustible, and solar sails would > only be able to > carry very small, light craft. > > > > One theoretical energy source, however, would fit > the bill perfectly. > It's as accessible in outer space as it would be in > the Outer Hebrides > because it exists, according to its advocates, > everywhere, immersing > everyone and everything in a foaming sea of energy. > > > > Early quantum physicists theorised that all space, > even the vacuum of > outer space, contains a constantly bubbling field of > electromagnetic > energy, quantum fluctuations thought to be created > by "virtual" photons > constantly winking in and out of existence. This is > zero point energy > (ZPE), so called because it would still exist at > absolute zero - minus > 273C - when the atomic motions that generate thermal > energy are at their > slowest. Physicists John Wheeler and Richard Feynman > calculated that > there is enough such energy in the vacuum inside a > single light bulb to > boil all the world's oceans. The challenge, > currently being investigated > by several teams, is how to tap it. > > > > Some researchers have also suggested an intriguing > connection between > ZPE, inertia and gravitational pull. The push you > feel while slowing > down or turning when driving may actually be caused > by ZPE fluctuations. > A greater understanding of how to manipulate ZPE may > one day lead to the > control of gravitational and inertial forces, > leading to new forms of > propulsion and a revolution in space travel. > > > > The number of physicists studying ZPE is small, and > most are still > operating at the theoretical level, but a > breakthrough could one day > provide the energy of the future. > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 15:10:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA19804; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:09:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:09:21 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030721180852.02e53e40@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:09:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Interesting roundup of SARS story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2pX0b1.0.Hr4.GI67_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51298 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14496-2003Jul19.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 15:16:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA23748; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:15:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 15:15:55 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:21:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPF thruster and The Guardian Resent-Message-ID: <"_eYJB3.0.-o5.QO67_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51299 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:55 PM 7/21/3, Terry Blanton wrote: >Either this is a coincidence or someone at the Guardian is reading your >posts: > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/farout/story/0,13028,999278,00.html [snip] >As several international probes struggle valiantly to reach the >relatively neighbourly planet Mars, a small coterie of astrophysicists >is quietly considering how humankind might venture beyond our own solar >system. It seems to me it must be another group, probably one with Hal Puthoff et. al., but I must confess to really liking the idea of being part of a "coterie", especially a "coterie of astrophysicists". Sounds really fancy! I never would have thought of calling vortex a "coterie" but I suppose it qualifies. That Mark Pilkington really has a way with words, and in my opinion probably should take a shot at writing a novel. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 19:25:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA08164; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:23:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:23:51 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <138.22e08ebf.2c4dfa0b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:23:07 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, becyn@hotmail.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_138.22e08ebf.2c4dfa0b_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"OdG3g3.0.O_1.s0A7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51300 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_138.22e08ebf.2c4dfa0b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/2003 7:01:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, becyn@hotmail.com writes: > What are the odds that the notes of the diatonic scale has anything > to do with atomic or vacuum or quark resonance's? Keely published the exact frequencies of the vacuum energies in his book in correspondence with the diatonic octaves, in which has listed hundreds of diatonic scale energies and their very specific frequencies to 8 decimal places. Keely list's 0 to 86 octaves which also have next to them the specific frequencies of molecules, and ether or quark energies. Keely even give's pictures of the musical frequencies of the human mind used to levitate objects. Since Keely used his sympathetic vibratory devices to amplify his mental energies to levitate a ship which he flew on, and large objects, much like Luke Skywalker levitating a light saber. The 26th octave is 67,108,864 cps which is the same frequency of the Highest Molecular Motion The 28th octave is 268,435,456 cps, which is the same frequency as the Highest intermolecular motion The 29th octave is 536,870,912 cps, which is the same frequency as the atomic vibration You only need to press two musical keys as in a chord, which have a difference between the keys that match the 29 octaves to get the sound that aproximates the atomic vibration to create implosion in an atom. Most piano keyboards only go to the 8th octave, so you need some special keys or computer sythesizers to get a chord that has 29 octaves between it which are close to infrasound and infrared energies which also match the human dna and emotional energies. Keely did not speak about quarks but quarks represent what he called the ether energies and octave frequencies from the 32nd to the 34th octave. Buddhist monks played horns and musical instruments of various pitches similar to a piano to levitate rocks. The infrasonic pitches are between the keys notes on most piano's, so the new keys or sub scales need to be made, but a music synthesizer can approximate the vacuum frequency pitches and place them into music. Baron On Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_138.22e08ebf.2c4dfa0b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/21/2003 7:01:59 PM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, becyn@hotmail.com writes:

What are the odds that the note= s of the diatonic scale has anything
to do with atomic or vacuum or quark resonance's?


Keely published the exact frequencies of the vacuum energies in his book in=20= correspondence with the diatonic octaves, in which has listed hundreds of di= atonic scale energies and their very specific frequencies to 8 decimal place= s. Keely list's 0 to 86 octaves which also have next to them the specific fr= equencies of molecules, and ether or quark energies.  Keely even give's= pictures of the musical frequencies of the human mind used to levitate obje= cts.  Since Keely used his sympathetic vibratory devices to amplify his= mental energies to levitate a ship which he flew on, and large objects, muc= h like Luke Skywalker levitating a light saber.

The 26th octave is 67,108,864 cps which is the same frequency of the Highest= Molecular Motion
The 28th octave is 268,435,456 cps, which is the same frequency as the Highe= st intermolecular motion
The 29th octave is 536,870,912 cps, which is the same frequency as the atomi= c vibration

You only need to press two musical keys as in a chord, which have a differen= ce between the keys that match the 29 octaves to get the sound that aproxima= tes the atomic vibration to create implosion in an atom.  Most piano ke= yboards only go to the 8th octave, so you need some special keys or computer= sythesizers to get a chord that has 29 octaves between it which are close t= o infrasound and infrared energies which also match the human dna and emotio= nal energies.

Keely did not speak about quarks but quarks represent what he called the eth= er energies and octave frequencies from the 32nd to the 34th octave.

Buddhist monks played horns and musical instruments of various pitches simil= ar to a piano to levitate rocks. The infrasonic pitches are between the keys= notes on most piano's, so the new keys or sub scales need to be made, but a= music synthesizer can approximate the vacuum frequency pitches and place th= em into music.

Baron On Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron,= Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_138.22e08ebf.2c4dfa0b_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 19:28:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA10330; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:26:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:26:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:26:07 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex cc: wiseman@eagle-research.com Subject: Re: Brown's gas mystery : was LENR commercial products for sale In-Reply-To: <001e01c34f9e$d251a920$0a016ea8@cpq> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"95dWk2.0.KX2.23A7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51301 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Jones Beene wrote: > Or preferably by BOTH. If you are listening to this George, and want to > massively increase the production of Brown's gas, USE CAVITATION in > addition to electrolysis. Bingo! Effervescence can only happen if there are already some seed-bubbles present, or if the environment is extremely supersaturated and the seed-bubbles start appearing spontaneously. In the same way that ultrasound can turn a 2-liter bottle of cola into a 20ft fountain of foam, it should create seed bubbles to let the gas come out of solution. I don't know if it would increase output though, since the output would depend on the rate of electrical production of the "dissolved BG" or clathrate water or whatever it is. On the other hand, if the presence of dissolved BG halts the further production of BG, then creating effervescence with cavitation would greatly increase the gas production. I wonder if George has ever tried inserting some "salt bridge" membranes or conductive gel disks into the electrolyte to mechanically separate the region of strange bubbles from the rest of the cell. That would let the 'pure' gas-stuff come out separately from the H2 and O2 bubbles coming from the fluid at the metal surfaces. > Is it likely that this large negative water ion will balance-out the > charge involved when a proton is "trapped" in the form of a hydronium > ion inside the same icosahedron that captures the hydrated electron, or > more likely in an adjoining icosahedron. Cool! Long ago I was brainstorming about "ion matter" which would resemble ionic crystals but with pos/neg structure on a macro scale, being overall neutral but with alternating patches of positive and negative charge (or perhaps a positive foam truss structure surrounding negative bubbles.) The stuff might resemble aerogel: having low density but solid or fluid structure. Huh. A hunk of it might be invisible (too close to air's optical index), yet have higher pressure inside, higher density, and surface tension. WOULD IT FORM SPHERES? Clouds of released BG might do strange things. This could be made visible by casting shadows of the gas with an intense point-source of light such as a widely spread laser, a continuous arc lamp, etc. I've done this by using a 1cm mirror to launch a spot of sunlight across a large warehouse. The big spot of sunlight is an image of the sun, and also it gives "scheliern" effects. The shadows of flames, alcohol, propane, and body heat can be seen. Would pure BG form spheres? Sphere's of unstable material which drift around the room... and explode if perturbed? Ball lightning. Ball lightning is "Brown's gas." Or more likely the opposite: Brown's Gas is ball lightning produced artifically. Maybe! If this connection is real, then maybe freshly-produced Brown's Gas glows in the dark. Would it even burn if heated, or is the usual "burning" of BG actually triggered by something on the micro scale other than heat? It sure would be weird if you could heat BG to extreme temperatures as long as you didn't expose it to any strong e-fields! > In either case, the charge > would cause the encasement structure to swell in size, just as with any > ion. Water will be converted more efficiently by electrolysis into this > gaseous fuel (the so-called Brown's gas) by applying a spatially > extended electric field. That is, by permitting nascent hydrogen with > the enhanced opportunity to be captured by the proto-solid phase of > water, instead of forming the diatomic molecule, production of the mixed > charge Brown's gas will be maximized. In effect, water is transformed > into a previously undescribed (except generically as Brown's gas) > acid-like, capacitor-like, molecular gas with a HIGH molecular weight, > not low, which in the words of Todd Knudtson is like a 'fluid crystal' > or by Wiseman's words - as "electrically expanded water." Macro ion-crystal matter, see: http://amasci.com/freenrg/iontest.html#seven http://balllightning.narod.ru/ (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb@eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 20:02:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA05635; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:01:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:01:04 -0700 From: Dean Miller To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:03:15 -0500 Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <46aphvoagr20hmkdq2vhgtr1rdfmfpf96n@4ax.com> References: <138.22e08ebf.2c4dfa0b@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <138.22e08ebf.2c4dfa0b@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (MidIowa1.midiowa.net) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA05576 Resent-Message-ID: <"7Qf8Z1.0.uN1.mZA7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51302 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:23:07 EDT, ConexTom@aol.com wrote: >The 26th octave is 67,108,864 cps which is the same frequency of the Highest >Molecular Motion >The 28th octave is 268,435,456 cps, which is the same frequency as the >Highest intermolecular motion >The 29th octave is 536,870,912 cps, which is the same frequency as the atomic >vibration I'd sure like to know how 1) Keely produced those frequencies (especially if they mechanical vibrations) and 2) how he measured them -- in the 1800's. (Originally, near the beginning of WW-II, radar's high frequency was about 30,000,000 cps. That was an electrical vibration -- much easier to produce and measure than a mechanical vibration of the same frequency.) -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 20:45:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA32242; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:44:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:44:19 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <84.15a35b25.2c4e0cee@aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:43:42 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, xigent@rcn.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_84.15a35b25.2c4e0cee_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"FboDL1.0.gt7.JCB7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51303 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_84.15a35b25.2c4e0cee_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/2003 10:52:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, xigent@rcn.com writes: > I am unaware of sound frequencies that propagate 67mhz, 2568 MHz nor > 536mhz. These frequencies lie in the electromagnetic spectrum. > I am unaware of Audio Sound Frequencies propagated thru air at speed in > excess of 60-75 Khz, near within IF frequencies > Frequencies above this are impeded by the speed of sound itself. Sound is > vibrations in air. Higher frequencies are not propagated in > air but are generated in the EMS. > Inteferometric sound waves may be able to change smaller em and pressure waves in air indirectly. The sound frequencies need only be 29 octaves apart to create a wave between the 29 octaves which may not be sound but electromagnetic. Two small sound waves or elf waves may be able to create a smaller 29th octave em or pressure wave in between them. >From the pictures it looks like Keely used vacuum tubes and balls of various sizes connected to vacuum wires in silver and platinum of various sizes to create interferometric vacuum pitches, keys or strings. Keely may have used crystal or metalic filters or amplifiers to transform interferometric sound waves into interferometric em waves indirectly. I wanted to buy a program also that had midi sound files that I could purchase to modify to make the above higher octaves. I went to some music stores, and I believe that some music synthesizers may allow you to make your own midi files on a computer at any octave or frequency range. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_84.15a35b25.2c4e0cee_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/21/2003 10:52:47 PM Eastern Dayli= ght Time, xigent@rcn.com writes:

I am unaware of sound frequenci= es that propagate 67mhz, 2568 MHz nor 536mhz.  These frequencies lie in= the electromagnetic spectrum.
I am unaware of Audio Sound Frequencies propagated thru air at speed in exc= ess of 60-75 Khz, near within IF frequencies
Frequencies above this are impeded by the speed of sound itself.  Soun= d is vibrations in air.  Higher frequencies are not propagated in
air but are generated in the EMS.


Inteferometric sound waves may be able to change smaller em and pressure wav= es in air indirectly. The sound frequencies need only be 29 octaves apart to= create a wave between the 29 octaves which may not be sound but electromagn= etic. Two small sound waves or elf waves may be able to create a smaller 29t= h octave em or pressure wave in between them.

>From the pictures it looks like Keely used vacuum tubes and balls of various= sizes connected to vacuum wires in silver and platinum of various sizes to=20= create interferometric vacuum pitches, keys or strings.

Keely may have used crystal or metalic filters or amplifiers to transform in= terferometric sound waves into interferometric em waves indirectly.

I wanted to buy a program also that had midi sound files that I could purcha= se to modify to make the above higher octaves.  I went to some music st= ores, and I believe that some music synthesizers may allow you to make your=20= own midi files on a computer at any octave or frequency range.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_84.15a35b25.2c4e0cee_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 21 21:13:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA19054; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:11:41 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <84.15a35b3e.2c4e1351@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 00:10:57 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_84.15a35b3e.2c4e1351_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"yLwMW3.0.Gf4.xbB7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51304 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_84.15a35b3e.2c4e1351_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/2003 11:01:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dtmiller@midiowa.net writes: > I'd sure like to know how 1) Keely produced those frequencies > (especially if they mechanical vibrations) and 2) how he measured them > -- in the 1800's. > I think Keely built a projector like microscope which used a negative refractor device constructed from vacuum technologies, to amplify or magnify light passing through a substance to determine higher frequencies of elements and substances, similar to the quote below by Keely. " Pg 62 Keely, A building, pyramidal in shape, two hundred feet high, one hundred feet at the base, and having at the apex a disc with a minute aperture in its center, and a triple combination of reflectors, which must concentrate upon one center which must be focalized upon the minute aperture in the disc, - the image being recieved at the base of the pyramid upon white surface prepared to recieve it- , would yeild results beyond the dreams of the most sanguine astronomer of the present day. The distinctness of the image taken would be the most wonderfull part of the phenomena, and the size of the magnefication would be limited to only the diamter of the base of the pyramid. ... A bath is employed, arranged so that the light rays can be projected upon it at certain angles, and from that upon a screen. The bath must have what are termed centers of association and concentration and suspended acorss its surface in such a manner that the centers approach very near the surface of the liquid, which is preferably water, who surface must be free from all films. Upon this is droped a single drop of naptha dissolved in ether, which constantly spreads over the surface and gradually evolves most beautiful variations of color. The vibratoins are transmitted from an instrument capable of producing vibrations of varying intensity and pitch across the line of resonanting centers, nine in number. The first center shows a light straw color, condensing about the center. The second shows a very dark straw color. The third exhibits an orange red .... Under different conditions, using films suspended in the air, and light passing through these films under polarization the vibratoins influence the molecules in the film producing again exhibitions of varying colors when projected upon a screen. " Or Keely could have gotten the frequencies from Buddhist Monks or star visitors living in caves in the inner Earth. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_84.15a35b3e.2c4e1351_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/21/2003 11:01:56 PM Eastern Dayli= ght Time, dtmiller@midiowa.net writes:

I'd sure like to know how 1) Ke= ely produced those frequencies
(especially if they mechanical vibrations) and 2) how he measured them
-- in the 1800's.


I think Keely built a projector like microscope which used a negative refrac= tor device constructed from vacuum technologies, to amplify or magnify light= passing through a substance to determine higher frequencies of elements and= substances, similar to the quote below by Keely.

" Pg 62 Keely, A building, pyramidal in shape, two hundred feet high, one hu= ndred feet at the base, and having at the apex a disc with a minute aperture= in its center, and a triple combination of reflectors, which must concentra= te upon one center which must be focalized upon the minute aperture in the d= isc, - the image being recieved at the base of the pyramid upon white surfac= e prepared to recieve it- , would yeild results beyond the dreams of the mos= t sanguine astronomer of the present day.  The distinctness of the imag= e taken would be the most wonderfull part of the phenomena, and the size of=20= the magnefication would be limited to only the diamter of the base of the py= ramid. ... A bath is employed, arranged so that the light rays can be projec= ted upon it at certain angles, and from that upon a screen.  The bath m= ust have what are termed centers of association and concentration and suspen= ded acorss its surface in such a manner that the centers approach very near=20= the surface of the liquid, which is preferably water, who surface must be fr= ee from all films.  Upon this is droped a single drop of naptha dissolv= ed in ether, which constantly spreads over the surface and gradually evolves= most beautiful variations of color. The vibratoins are transmitted from an=20= instrument capable of producing vibrations of varying intensity and pitch ac= ross the line of resonanting centers, nine in number.  The first center= shows a light straw color, condensing about the center. The second shows a=20= very dark straw color. The third exhibits an orange red .... Under different= conditions, using films suspended in the air, and light passing through the= se films under polarization the vibratoins influence the molecules in the fi= lm producing again exhibitions of varying colors when projected upon a scree= n. "

Or Keely could have gotten the frequencies from Buddhist Monks or star visit= ors living in caves in the inner Earth.


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_84.15a35b3e.2c4e1351_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 12:20:44 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05829; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:04:20 -0700 (PDT) From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <159.21e0d4de.2c4ee47b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:03:23 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, prj@mail.msen.com, mediator@mint.ocn.ne.jp, thebishop@usadatanet.net CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_159.21e0d4de.2c4ee47b_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"mEIh_2.0.tQ1.jgO7_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51305 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_159.21e0d4de.2c4ee47b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/2003 11:01:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dtmiller@midiowa.net writes: > I'd sure like to know how 1) Keely produced those frequencies > (especially if they mechanical vibrations) and 2) how he measured them > -- in the 1800's. Keely determined the rates of vibration by using weights according to the following quote: "Everything vibrates at its own frequency when not resonating to a nearby object. Remember Keely's experiment where he floated weights in a water filled vessel (Cayce fans may recognize the allusion to "iron floating on water"?) The law says that these ion weights, "When immersed in a media of matter in a different state (liquid, gas, etc.), vibrates at an ascertainable rare." This is also recognizable to ham radio operators as the functioning of an antenna. The antenna is an aggregate, usually copper, suspended in media (air) of another state (gas). The length determines the general frequency of resonance. The same holds true with weights in a medium of water and at a later date, Keely was able to do this in the air. Keely apparently could measure the rates of vibration of these weights quite accurately and then alter them (the rates) to suit his purposes; i.e., alter the "predominance from the terrestrial to the celestial. Pg 100, Keely UL (Universal Laws Never Before Revealed: Keely's Secrets, Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration by Dale Pond, John Keely, Nikola Tesla, Edgar Cayce and seven others") According to Keely, "energy in the form of vibrating wavelets, precedes matter or any solid substance. One must inevitably realize that if subatomic particles are wavelets of varying frequencies and that all atoms and molecules are composed of such particles then all atoms and molecules are nothing other than "quantized bundles of vibrating energy", whose all-inclusive existence is determined by the laws of vibrating motion and not by the laws of "classical mechanics", as these laws are based on the assumption of a solid materiality. Pg 97 Keely UL" "When push comes to shove- what is the difference between "pure" energy and "pure" matter anyway? Simply rate and mode of vibration. Keely's Theory is not unlike String Theory ..The fundamental differences are in the overall comprehensiveness of these theories and that which ties them together. To this date the only truly comprehensive theory put forth has been Keely's. Pg 97 Keely UL." "If everything is composed of vibrating bundles of focalized energies ...then the connecting link must therefore be some aspect of vibration ...The only difference between one frequency and another is that of rate and mode. What determines rate is density or degree of focalization .., also ambient modulations, and what determines mode is direction (relative to the neutral point of focalization and periphery points of expansion). Pg 97 Keely UL" It also seems that Keely was using low energy physics and not high energy physics to disintegrate water. The low energy may be a cold gravitational energy or cold fusion energy that comes from the cold cosmic vacuum in the environment, which is very different from the high and hot energy (warm or hot fusion) that comes from the sun. Low vacuum energies conveyed by low frequency waves such as sound in the gaseous environment tuned to a proper harmony by means of harmonic progression in 3rds, 6ths, and 9ths, encoded in alternating metals or quantum wells may act to tune the low vacuum energies like a keyboard to disintegrate water and air gases into smaller elements in progression to create more energy than was received from the environment by implosion or cavetation. Keely uses musical notation in his notes to signify the musical harmonies which are then encoded into alternating metals placed in geometric ratios of thirds, sixths and ninths to harmonize the metals to focalize and disintegrate water, air, and vacuum gases around the metals from the local environment to create implosion in the gases from which more energy is released due to the laws of cavetation - "The collapse of the smaller vapor filled cavities [during cavitation] causes many extreme results as the intensity of the resulting shock wave may be considerably greater than the originating action" Pg 176 Keely UL. A quantum well works as follows, " This process is one where layers of atoms of one material are nestled along or within layers of another atom thus creating a "well" of atoms in which another atom can vibrate "at a given ascertainable rate". The claim that electrons can be made to resonate like sound inside an organ pipe. By exiting the isolated element tremendous laser power can easily be generated by stimulating the particle into a quantum leap and thus a release of energy. .. An aggregate of the ringing electron, is isolated from bodies in a like state, that is they don't ring or vibrate at the same frequency. It may also be said they are immersed (surrounded by matter in another state (non-resonanting). The quantum leap required to emit the laser beam is then induced from a know rate of frequency which has been stabilized within the active element enclosed within the quantum well. " Vibrate an atomic substance with an atomic vibration and heat and light are evolved, Keely." Pg 101 Keely UL" The pictures of Keely's Dyanasphere device on page 95 and 98, has a large metal ball encircled by layers of metal strips, with a metal shaft running through the metal ball. The most outer layer of metal strip around the metal ball has triple's of metal pipes connected to it every 45 degrees making a total of 8 triples as if the triple metal pipes interact with the vacuum gases by the law of the thirds to disintegrate or concentrate the gases and transfer the energy to the next ring which has one pipe placed every 51.42 degrees apart to make 7 pipes. Then there is 3 pipes 120 degrees apart inside of the ball. There are also small metal pipes which looks like tiny antennas in groups of 8 and 4 placed in a circle connected to the central shaft passing through the metal ball and also connected to a hollow metal wire which connects to another metal ball. It appears that the small metal ball and metal pipe antennas concentrates or focalizes the gas vacuum energy in the environment like a collector and conveys the energy through the metal wire to the metal shaft in the metal ball; and at the same time the outer metal rings also may concentrate the gas vacuum energies into the metal ball to cause the metal ball to rotate and drive the shaft which may be used to run a motor or generate electricity. The picture of the compound disintegrator on page 105 also has several circular layers of metal connected to metal pipes and wires placed in harmonic series to concentrate and disintegrate local environmental vacuum and gas energies. The metals are made of alternating elements of silver, copper, and platinum. The devices when connected together work as explained below: "In submitting water to the influence of vibratory transmission, even on simple thirds, the high action induced on the hydrogen as contrasted with the one on the oxygen under the same vibratory system causes the antagonism between these elements that induces dissociation. The differential antagonistic range of motion, so favoring the antagonistic thirds as to become thoroughly repellent. The gaseous element thus induced and registered, shows thousands of times much greater force as regards tenuity and volume than that induced by the chemical disintegration of heat, on the same medium. In all other molecular dissociation or disintegration of both simple and compound, whether gaseous or solid, a stream of vibratory antagonistic thirds, sixths, and ninths on their chord mass will compel progressive subdivisions" These triple conditions are focalized on the neutral center of said instrument as to induce prefect harmony on concordance to the chord note of the mass chord of the instruments full combination, after which the diatonic and the enharmonic scale located at the top of the instrument, or ring, is thoroughly harmonized with the scale of the ninths, which is placed at the base of the vibratory transmitter with the telephone head. The next step is to disturb the harmony of the concentrative thirds, between the transmitter and the disintegrator. This is done by rotating the siren so as to induce a sympathetic communication along the nodal transmitter or wire that associates the two instruments. When the note of the siren becomes concordant to the neutral center of the disintegrator, the highest order of sympathetic communication is established. It is now necessary to operate the transferable vibratory negatizer or negative accelerator, which is seated in the center of the diatonic or enharmonic ring, at the top of the disintegrator, and complete disintegration will follow (from the antagonism induced on the concordants by said adjunct) in triple progression, thus: First thirds: Molecular disassociation resolving the water into a gaseous compound of hydrogen and oxygen. Second sixths, resolving the hydrogen and oxygen into a new element by second order of dissociation, producing what I will call low atomic ether. Third: ninths, the low atomic ether resolved into a new element which I denominate high or secondary atomic harmonic. All of these transmissions being simultaneous on the disturbance of sympathetic equilibrium by said negative accelerator. Pg 80 Keely UL'' Keely's devices above are very similar to Professor Searl's Engine device, which uses the law of the squares musical ratios to place alternating metallic and magnetic elements on the periodic table in concentric metal spheres to pull in vacuum energies that move magnetic cylinders by energetic opposition around the spheres to run a motor or generate energy. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_159.21e0d4de.2c4ee47b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/21/2003 11:01:56 PM Eastern Dayli= ght Time, dtmiller@midiowa.net writes:

I'd sure like to know how 1) Ke= ely produced those frequencies
(especially if they mechanical vibrations) and 2) how he measured them
-- in the 1800's.


Keely determined the rates of vibration by using weights according to the fo= llowing quote:

"Everything vibrates at its own frequency when not resonating to a nearby= object. Remember Keely's experiment where he floated weights in a water fil= led vessel (Cayce fans may recognize the allusion to "iron floating on water= "?)  The law says that these ion weights, "When immersed in a media of=20= matter in a different state (liquid, gas, etc.), vibrates at an ascertainabl= e rare."  This is also recognizable to ham radio operators as the funct= ioning of an antenna.  The antenna is an aggregate, usually copper, sus= pended in media (air) of another state (gas).  The length determines th= e general frequency of resonance.  The same holds true with weights in=20= a medium of water and at a later date, Keely was able to do this in the air.=     Keely apparently could measure the rates of vibration of=20= these weights quite accurately and then alter them (the rates) to suit his p= urposes; i.e., alter the "predominance from the terrestrial to the celestial= . Pg 100,  Keely UL (Universal Laws Never Before Revealed: Keely's Secr= ets, Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration by Dale Po= nd, John Keely, Nikola Tesla, Edgar Cayce and seven others")

According to Keely, "energy in the form of vibrating wavelets, precedes m= atter or any solid substance.  One must inevitably realize that if suba= tomic particles are wavelets of varying frequencies and that all atoms and m= olecules are composed of such particles then all atoms and molecules are not= hing other than "quantized bundles of vibrating energy", whose all-inclusive= existence is determined by the laws of vibrating motion and not by the laws= of "classical mechanics", as these laws are based on the assumption of a so= lid materiality. Pg 97 Keely UL"

"When push comes to shove- what is the difference between "pure" energy a= nd "pure" matter anyway? Simply rate and mode of vibration.  Keely's Th= eory is not unlike String Theory ..The fundamental differences are in the ov= erall comprehensiveness of these theories and that which ties them together.= To this date the only truly comprehensive theory put forth has been Keely's= . Pg 97 Keely UL."

"If everything is composed of vibrating bundles of focalized energies ...= then the connecting link must therefore be some aspect of vibration ...The o= nly difference between one frequency and another is that of rate and mode.&n= bsp; What determines rate is density or degree of focalization .., also ambi= ent modulations, and what determines mode is direction (relative to the neut= ral point of focalization and periphery points of expansion). Pg 97 Keely UL= "

It also seems that Keely was using low energy physics and not high energy ph= ysics to disintegrate water. The low energy may be a cold gravitational ener= gy or cold fusion energy that comes from the cold cosmic vacuum in the envir= onment, which is very different from the high and hot energy (warm or hot fu= sion) that comes from the sun.    Low vacuum energies conveye= d by low frequency waves such as sound in the gaseous environment tuned to a= proper harmony by means of harmonic progression in 3rds, 6ths, and 9ths, en= coded in alternating metals or quantum wells may act to  tune the low v= acuum energies like a keyboard to disintegrate water and air gases into smal= ler elements in progression to create more energy than was received from the= environment by implosion or cavetation.   Keely uses musical nota= tion in his notes to signify the musical harmonies which are then encoded in= to alternating metals placed in geometric ratios of thirds, sixths and ninth= s to harmonize the metals to focalize and disintegrate water, air, and vacuu= m gases around the metals from the local environment to create implosion in=20= the gases from which more energy is released due to the laws of cavetation -= "The collapse of the smaller vapor filled cavities [during cavitation] c= auses many extreme results as the intensity of the resulting shock wave may=20= be considerably greater than the originating action" Pg 176 Keely UL. &= nbsp; 

A quantum well works as follows, " This process is one where layers of atoms= of one material are nestled along or within layers of another atom thus cre= ating a "well" of atoms in which another atom can vibrate "at a given ascert= ainable rate". The claim that electrons can be made to resonate like sound i= nside an organ pipe. By exiting the isolated element tremendous laser power=20= can easily be generated by stimulating the particle into a quantum leap and=20= thus a release of energy. .. An aggregate of the ringing electron, is isolat= ed from bodies in a like state, that is they don't ring or vibrate at the sa= me frequency. It may also be said they are immersed (surrounded by matter in= another state (non-resonanting).  The quantum leap required to emit th= e laser beam is then induced from a know rate of frequency which has been st= abilized within the active element enclosed within the quantum well.  "= Vibrate an atomic substance with an atomic vibration and heat and light are= evolved, Keely." Pg 101 Keely UL"

The pictures of Keely's Dyanasphere device on page 95 and 98, has a larg= e metal ball encircled by layers of  metal strips, with a metal shaft r= unning through the metal ball.  The most outer layer of metal strip aro= und the metal ball has triple's of metal pipes connected to it every 45 degr= ees making a total of 8 triples as if the triple metal pipes interact with t= he vacuum gases by the law of the thirds to disintegrate or concentrate the=20= gases and transfer the energy to the next ring which has one pipe placed eve= ry 51.42 degrees apart to make 7 pipes. Then there is 3 pipes 120 degrees ap= art inside of the ball. There are also small metal pipes which looks like ti= ny antennas in groups of 8 and 4 placed in a circle connected to the central= shaft passing through the metal ball and also connected to a hollow metal w= ire which connects to another metal ball. 

It appears that the small metal ball and metal pipe antennas concentrates or= focalizes the gas vacuum energy in the environment like a collector and con= veys the energy through the metal wire to the metal shaft in the metal ball;= and at the same time the outer metal rings also may concentrate the gas vac= uum energies into the metal ball to cause the metal ball to rotate and drive= the shaft which may be used to run a motor or generate electricity. &n= bsp; The picture of the compound disintegrator on page 105 also has several=20= circular layers of metal connected to metal pipes and wires placed in harmon= ic series to concentrate and disintegrate local environmental vacuum and gas= energies.  The metals are made of alternating elements of silver, copp= er, and platinum.  The devices when connected together work as explaine= d below:

"In submitting water to the influence of vibratory transmission, even on=20= simple thirds, the high action induced on the hydrogen as contrasted with th= e one on the oxygen under the same vibratory system causes the antagonism be= tween these elements that induces dissociation.  The differential antag= onistic range of motion, so favoring the antagonistic thirds as to become th= oroughly repellent.   The gaseous element thus induced and registe= red, shows thousands of times much greater force as regards tenuity and volu= me than that induced by the chemical disintegration of heat, on the same med= ium.  In all other molecular dissociation or disintegration of both sim= ple and compound, whether gaseous or solid, a stream of vibratory antagonist= ic thirds, sixths, and ninths on their chord mass will compel progressive su= bdivisions" 

These triple conditions are focalized on the neutral center of said instrume= nt as to induce prefect harmony on concordance to the chord note of the mass= chord of the instruments full combination, after which the diatonic and the= enharmonic scale located at the top of the instrument, or ring, is thorough= ly harmonized with the scale of the ninths, which is placed at the base of t= he vibratory transmitter with the telephone head.  The next step is to=20= disturb the harmony of the concentrative thirds, between the transmitter and= the disintegrator.  This is done by rotating the siren so as to induce= a sympathetic communication along the nodal transmitter or wire that associ= ates the two instruments. When the note of the siren becomes concordant to t= he neutral center of the disintegrator, the highest order of sympathetic com= munication is established.  It is now necessary to operate the transfer= able vibratory negatizer or negative accelerator, which is seated in the cen= ter of the diatonic or enharmonic ring, at the top of the disintegrator, and= complete disintegration will follow (from the antagonism induced on the con= cordants by said adjunct) in triple progression, thus: First thirds: Molecul= ar disassociation resolving the water into a gaseous compound of hydrogen an= d oxygen. Second sixths, resolving the hydrogen and oxygen into a new elemen= t by second order of dissociation, producing what I will call low atomic eth= er.  Third: ninths, the low atomic ether resolved into a new element wh= ich I denominate high or secondary atomic harmonic.  All of these trans= missions being simultaneous on the disturbance of sympathetic equilibrium by= said negative accelerator. Pg 80 Keely UL''

Keely's devices above are very similar to Professor Searl's Engine device, w= hich uses the law of the squares musical ratios to place alternating metalli= c and magnetic elements on the periodic table in concentric metal spheres to= pull in vacuum energies that move magnetic cylinders by energetic oppositio= n around the spheres to run a motor or generate energy.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_159.21e0d4de.2c4ee47b_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 13:33:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA18077; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:30:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:30:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1D9F42.1080502@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:32:02 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [OT] Uday and Qusay DOA and KIA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NQPPu3.0.LQ4.jxP7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51306 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/news_release.asp?NewsRelease=20030768.txt From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 14:27:48 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA22051; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:19:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:19:11 -0700 Message-ID: <20030722211902.90074.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:19:02 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: [OT] Uday and Qusay DOA and KIA To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F1D9F42.1080502@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"pYGMU3.0.RO5.FfQ7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51307 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/news_release.asp?NewsRelease=20030768.txt > any truth to the reports that they were working on a perpetual motion machine before being killed by the military? (sorry, couldnt help myself) seriously, 4 people with kalishnikovs in a large house, a fire fight of over 4 hours long as over 100 of our troops fired m-16's , 40 mm gernades launched from said m-16's, 50 cal armor piercing sniper rifles, 50 cal macs mounted on jeeps and humvees, some 3 million rounds of ammo, and they finally give up and kill them by launching 2 tows from a humvee and several vipers from apaches into the windows. have you seen the footage of the house on fox? (www.foxnews.com you can get it streamed) they made the masonry swiss cheese, and STILL couldnt kill the bastards. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 14:33:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA32646; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:30:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:30:41 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> X-Sender: little@earthtech.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:29:53 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Naudin-Mizuno experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6_WNm.0.pz7.1qQ7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51308 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi gang, Long time no see. We have just completed a series of experiments designed to replicate Jean-Louis Naudin's exciting replication of the Mizuno experiment. Unfortunately, our results differ significantly from JLN's. Our batting average is still the same.... Read all about it here: http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/Inc-W/2003/replicationjln.htm Signing off again.... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little@earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 14:38:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06197; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:36:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:36:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1DAE70.A9DE1BD5@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:36:48 +0300 From: hamdix X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Sandia news Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WuZzL2.0.kW1.mvQ7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51309 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Energy emissions far greater than predicted by Planck’s Law http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2003/other/planck-lin.html Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 15:02:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA26100; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:59:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:59:58 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:02:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: Vortex , Schnurer , Adrian -- Adrian , Adrian , adrianix@slingshot.co.nz Subject: And just what Did we think about that? Hmm? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yKO1f2.0.WN6.TFR7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51310 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., It was After reading quite a lot of James Thurber I was beginning to run out of volumes in the library. I could see there would soon be real trouble. Having read ten or eleven I had to quickly begin some Robert Benchly or have to face a rude immersion into pith. Now to me pith is the light as balsa wood inside of some reedy plants. Not much substance. Vapid, watered down, pale. Keeping tabs on what I hoped would be some real science, as opposed to "lite" "lo-cal" thru noh spel non-word word salad .... of a sudden I chanced across some REAL questions! I hoped against chance there might be some REAL information. SO: Here is what I saw, JUST as I read it. And following, please find one translation, or at least an attempt at a translation. Why a Translation? To be able to make some sense of the communication. If I have made a mistake in the translation, maybe someone with a better grasp of the sciences can please take the time to correct my amateur try at uderstanding. Maybe I may begin to learn to understand how science works enough to be able to explain it to some of my students. NOTE: I will simply mark the text from the different contributors as letter groups, so we don't get confused! AB: "......vibrations. I wonder if tuning forks made of some nano-film / composite material could actually produce high( er ) sound ( audio ) vibrations? RB: "......What do you think about that? ....." Flo B: Thank you for the information. The optical nanonegative refraction technologies used at (URL here) to make light waves smaller than light by means of nanomicrocavities coated with silver fractals, may also be used to create nano ultrasound speakers to produce smaller sound waves in air, or by using nanolight waves to change the air pressure to make sound waves. OK.... I KNEW I was in deep trouble.... the text used MATH ! So, with a dictionary of science and an excyclopedia, both printed on PAPER .... I took the dare, the Big Step. BUT: I knew Iwas aout of my depth and could only try to translate a fragment of the science. Deep. FROM FLO B: "......to make light waves smaller than light by means of nanomicrocavities coated with silver fractals...." 1] "....light waves smaller than light ...." That seems OK. Nothing tricky about that part. 2] ".....by means of nanomicrocavities ....." OK.... small cavities, with general magnitude ideas of 10 negative 9 power of 10 negative 6 power OR NANO and MICRO 3] ".....coated with silver fractals...." coated with a silver mathematical function coated with a silver repeating mathematical relationship coated with a silver kind of mathematical structure The students were NOT happy They asked for something less... uh.... less esoteric.... They asked for....Nay... they Demanded a Simple analog. [3] Simplified analogs coated with a copper multiplication table coated with an aluminum method of computing coated with a zinc set of rules for calculating odd-looking shapes which sometimes resemble snowflakes or waves Ahhh.......! Much better ..... the general translation method was described about 3 months and 21 days earlier... about 114 days.... or close to this. This figure may be off by 1 or 2 days From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 15:04:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA28134; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:01:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:01:48 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030722173909.02812938@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:00:37 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com, little@earthtech.org, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6E9yC.0.6t6.7HR7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51311 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Hi gang, > >Long time no see. We have just completed a series of experiments designed >to replicate Jean-Louis Naudin's exciting replication of the Mizuno experiment. See: http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/Inc-W/2003/replicationjln.htm Mizuno is not impressed by Naudin's work so far. As I reported, he said he would like to see a better blank and more calibration. Mizuno's recent papers may call into question this section of Little's report: "E Gas is the measure of the energy required to dissociate a given mass of solution. E gas is calculated as the time integral of the product of the instantaneous cell current and the dissociation voltage constant for water: E Gas = S (Instantaneous Current)*1.48*DTime, where the Instantaneous Current is measured by the Clarke-Hess Watt Meter, and the constant 1.48 is the dissociation voltage of water." This may not be problem at this stage in Little's work, but Mizuno has found that when the excess heat events occur, the temperature in the plasma exceeds 3000 deg C and pyrolysis occurs. The plasma is considerably hotter than the tungsten surface; the melting point of W is 3,410 deg C. In other words, a large amount of energy unaccounted for may be carried off as free hydrogen and oxygen. some of the lost mass that you assume left the cell as vapor actually left it as free hydrogen and oxygen. When the experiment is particularly successful (particularly hot I mean), paradoxically you may end up with a negative energy balance. See the JCF-4 paper. Probably, this is not a significant factor in Little's experiment. Little's conclusion, that there is no excess heat, is probably correct. Little used a transparent cell to take a photograph, but he normally uses an opaque cell. I think it is important to conduct this experiment in a transparent cell so that you can see whether a sheath-like plasma has developed around the cathode. This degrades calorimetry somewhat. I have never seen a cathode with the geometry Little selected, and I have not heard of using a stainless steel anode. I do not know whether these two factors may have an impact or not. I'm a little bit concerned that iron (stainless steel) may dissolve in the extreme temperatures and conditions of the cell, contaminating the cathode. Mizuno and Ohmori use expensive Pt anodes. Whether this is necessary or not I cannot say. I think Little should discuss these issues with Mizuno and Ohmori directly, and perhaps visit them or consult with them when they attend ICCF-10. I have passed these messages and this URL on to Mizuno. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 15:17:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA07580; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:16:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:16:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030722180737.02851c58@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:15:53 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com, little@earthtech.org From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment - URL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"quN123.0.Fs1.YUR7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51312 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "In other words, a large amount of energy unaccounted for may be carried off as free hydrogen and oxygen. some of the lost mass that you assume left the cell as vapor actually left it as free hydrogen and oxygen. . . . See the JCF-4 paper." Which is here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf This paper goes to considerable effort *not* to make a quantitative estimate of the energy losses. When he wrote this, Mizuno was still unsure about that and did not want to commit himself to a number. It was clear, however, that "excess hydrogen" and oxygen was being produced. The excess hydrogen and oxygen are mixed together, even though the anode and cathode are separated with a quartz glass hood. This took me a while to figure that out. Both evolve from the cathode and go up & out through the hood. If you see significant oxygen in the gas stream from the hood, you know it comes from pyrolysis. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 16:43:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA07961; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:42:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:42:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:44:26 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Jed Rothwell cc: vortex-L@eskimo.com, little@earthtech.org Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment - URL In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030722180737.02851c58@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Hdvv73.0.-x1.LlS7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51313 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jed, Pyrolysis of WHAT? On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > "In other words, a large amount of energy unaccounted for may be carried > off as free hydrogen and oxygen. some of the lost mass that you assume left > the cell as vapor actually left it as free hydrogen and oxygen. . . . > > See the JCF-4 paper." > > Which is here: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf > > This paper goes to considerable effort *not* to make a quantitative > estimate of the energy losses. When he wrote this, Mizuno was still unsure > about that and did not want to commit himself to a number. It was clear, > however, that "excess hydrogen" and oxygen was being produced. The excess > hydrogen and oxygen are mixed together, even though the anode and cathode > are separated with a quartz glass hood. This took me a while to figure that > out. Both evolve from the cathode and go up & out through the hood. If you > see significant oxygen in the gas stream from the hood, you know it comes > from pyrolysis. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 16:48:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA12320; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:47:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:47:08 -0700 From: Dean Miller To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:48:38 -0500 Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: References: <159.21e0d4de.2c4ee47b@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <159.21e0d4de.2c4ee47b@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (MidIowa1.midiowa.net) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA12045 Resent-Message-ID: <"PSpK1.0.R_2.vpS7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51314 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:03:23 EDT, ConexTom@aol.com wrote: >"Everything vibrates at its own frequency when not resonating to a nearby >object. Remember Keely's experiment where he floated weights in a water filled >vessel (Cayce fans may recognize the allusion to "iron floating on water"?) The >law says that these ion weights, "When immersed in a media of matter in a >different state (liquid, gas, etc.), vibrates at an ascertainable rare." This is >also recognizable to ham radio operators as the functioning of an antenna. >The antenna is an aggregate, usually copper, suspended in media (air) of >another state (gas). The length determines the general frequency of resonance. The >same holds true with weights in a medium of water and at a later date, Keely >was able to do this in the air. That's all quite true, to a certain point. But the physical vibrations you listed are in the hundreds of MHz range. We can generate physical vibrations, today, up to about 100 MHz -- but that there's a vibration can only be measured by electrical/electronic means (various quartz and ceramic crystals are piezo-electric -- they deform when an electric potential is applied across the crystal). >Keely apparently could measure the rates of >vibration of these weights quite accurately and then alter them (the rates) >to suit his purposes; i.e., alter the "predominance from the terrestrial to the >celestial. Pg 100, I'd sure like to know the details of his measurements. How was he able to detect the MHz range vibration on these weights? -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 16:55:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18239; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:54:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:54:15 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Naudin-Mizuno experiment Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:14:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"dZJIQ3.0.vS4.dwS7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51315 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott. I'm looking at the circuit diagram and wondering about something. You seem to go to a lot of trouble on the transformer end of the circuit to get a balanced output, why ground things at the - pole? Presumably the Hi-Lo voltage inputs are true differential, and your thermistor is isolated from the solution. Why not make the measurement differentially rather than single ended? K. PS: The Cheshire cat thing was amusing but getting a little long in the tooth. Welcome back. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little [mailto:little@earthtech.org] Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 5:30 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Naudin-Mizuno experiment Hi gang, Long time no see. We have just completed a series of experiments designed to replicate Jean-Louis Naudin's exciting replication of the Mizuno experiment. Unfortunately, our results differ significantly from JLN's. Our batting average is still the same.... Read all about it here: http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/Inc-W/2003/replicationjln.htm Signing off again.... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little@earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 19:51:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA04137; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:49:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:49:26 -0700 Message-ID: <004801c350c4$90134560$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:46:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA04083 Resent-Message-ID: <"Dwjlc1.0.Z01.rUV7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, This last column in Table 2 is not only interesting - it is the crux of the issue, isn't it? Cooldown: The last column in Table 2 lists COP values obtained using the technique employed by Naudin9. He adds to the total output energy the energy required to vaporize the water lost by evaporation during the cooldown period. We do not understand his justification for this addition. The heat energy that drives the evaporation during the cooldown period has already been counted. It is the quantity E Heating described above. To include any portion of it again is double-counting, which erroneously inflates the COP value. CONCLUSION Our experiments show no sign of the large excess power levels observed by Naudin. In fact, our final results (COP2) average very close to unity, which indicates that there are no anomalous energy-producing reactions in this experiment. My question is this: you say the output energy has already been accounted for. IMHO you are incorrect. Naudin is correct in that the output energy must include not only the immediate heat rise but also the *total* evaporation. You actually admit as much when you say, "The heat output calculation now involves the sum of two parts, (1) the product of the heat of vaporization and the evaporated mass and (2) the heat required to raise the solution from initial temperature to final temperature." Think about it, Scott. If not from the original input, where does that delayed energy output come from? Free energy from cooldown? Give me a break! When you say "The heat energy that drives the evaporation during the cooldown period has already been counted." Yes, the input energy has been accounted for - BUT that is immaterial in that we are now concerned with *input relative to output* and in order to get an accurate appraisal of the real output, one MUST not only include the immediate output energy but also that which is not immediate but delayed. It is still part of the package. I find that your experiment, when properly analyzed, does indeed support overunity Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 22 20:08:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA13776; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:05:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:05:51 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <29.44d90ea7.2c4f5565@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 23:05:09 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, dtmiller@midiowa.net CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_29.44d90ea7.2c4f5565_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"Qq3Ji.0.9N3.FkV7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_29.44d90ea7.2c4f5565_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/22/2003 7:48:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dtmiller@midiowa.net writes: > I'd sure like to know the details of his measurements. How was he > able to detect the MHz range vibration on these weights? > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF You can contact Dale Pond at www.svpvril.com since he edited the book, Universal Laws Never Before Revealed.., that I quoted from in this email about Keely's work, and he may have more information on how Keely performed his experiments to get the frequencies I quoted. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_29.44d90ea7.2c4f5565_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/22/2003 7:48:21 PM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, dtmiller@midiowa.net writes:

I'd sure like to know the detai= ls of his measurements.  How was he
able to detect the MHz range vibration on these weights?

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF


You can contact Dale Pond at
www.svpvril.com since he edited the book, Universal Laws Never Before Revealed.., that I quoted from in this emai= l about Keely's work, and he may have more information on how Keely performe= d his experiments to get the frequencies I quoted.


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_29.44d90ea7.2c4f5565_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 07:54:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA23385; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:53:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:53:18 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105220.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:53:06 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment - URL In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030722180737.02851c58@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PEtzs3.0.Aj5.U5g7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51318 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Jed, > > Pyrolysis of WHAT? Water. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 07:56:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA25031; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:55:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:55:55 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: SurfaceTensionAcidity [was RE: Brown's gas mystery : was LENR commercial products for sale Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:53:27 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"WjVzT2.0.176.x7g7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51320 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More Anecdotal Notes from my own stuff: Perhaps this is a reason the water always seems to have much higher surface tension after arcs and whatnot. I don't know if anyone else has remarked on this, but aside from the buckets of iron, oxides and other associated electrolysis crud I regularly toss, the surface tension of my experiments is always up in the realm of bubble-bath soap. And acidic! Last night I had a spewing pinwheel which I hadn't noticed until this morning had sprayed across a stainless steel ruler (brand new, of course) and the resulting corrosion was startling. The 2 mm exhaust [DeLaval] orifices (in an ordinary 'street-market' iron) I had painstakingly drilled are now, after less than 300 seconds of operation, corroded out to almost 3mm in diameter. It also explains why I can generate exceedingly noisy exhaust, without any significant reaction thrust in what was my latest attempt to build a LENR reaction drive. [I did succeed, later, however in creating a very intriguing hot water pump - no moving parts!] I can move water, but the explosion product seems to implode so fast it develops no thrust. > -----Original Message----- > From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 2003 July 22 09:26 > To: vortex > Cc: wiseman@eagle-research.com > Subject: Re: Brown's gas mystery : was LENR commercial products for sale > > > On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Jones Beene wrote: > > > Or preferably by BOTH. If you are listening to this George, and want to > > massively increase the production of Brown's gas, USE CAVITATION in > > addition to electrolysis. >X< > Huh. A hunk of it might be invisible (too close to air's optical index), > yet have higher pressure inside, higher density, and surface tension. > >X< > Would pure BG form spheres? Sphere's of unstable material which drift > around the room... and explode if perturbed? > > Ball lightning. Ball lightning is "Brown's gas." Or more likely the > opposite: Brown's Gas is ball lightning produced artifically. Maybe! Uhh, probably not what I saw, but: one of the key characteristics of what I was doing was the occurrence of what I assumed to be iron or sodium globules which looked a lot like welding spray. These little balls are spewed through the nozzles and then remain lit up for a thrown distance of maybe 50cm (emitting a yellowish-orange glow during flight) for perhaps a half-second, and there are never any remains to be found. I will recheck this, if I get time. Of course, with the nature of the arcs, I can't be sure of anything inside the chambers. Tried looking through welding glasses, but can't get close enough to see (2 m.) due to hi-voltage spray. > If this connection is real, then maybe freshly-produced Brown's Gas glows > in the dark. Would it even burn if heated, or is the usual "burning" of > BG actually triggered by something on the micro scale other than heat? It > sure would be weird if you could heat BG to extreme temperatures as long > as you didn't expose it to any strong e-fields! > > > In either case, the charge > > would cause the encasement structure to swell in size, just as with any > > ion. Water will be converted more efficiently by electrolysis into this > > gaseous fuel (the so-called Brown's gas) by applying a spatially > > extended electric field. That is, by permitting nascent hydrogen with > > the enhanced opportunity to be captured by the proto-solid phase of > > water, instead of forming the diatomic molecule, production of the mixed > > charge Brown's gas will be maximized. In effect, water is transformed > > into a previously undescribed (except generically as Brown's gas) > > acid-like, capacitor-like, molecular gas with a HIGH molecular weight, > > not low, which in the words of Todd Knudtson is like a 'fluid crystal' > > or by Wiseman's words - as "electrically expanded water." > interesting stuff to play with, on a leash... > Macro ion-crystal matter, see: > http://amasci.com/freenrg/iontest.html#seven > http://balllightning.narod.ru/ > > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ > beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer > billb@eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 > 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 07:57:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA24961; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:55:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:55:49 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:53:12 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"wuLNC.0.x56.r7g7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51319 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually rather pertinent at the moment: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Miller [mailto:dtmiller@midiowa.net] > Sent: Wednesday, 2003 July 23 06:49 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Re: Pete's Gravim & Keely's Vibratory Secrets > > > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:03:23 EDT, ConexTom@aol.com wrote: > > >"Everything vibrates at its own frequency when not resonating to > a nearby > >object. Remember Keely's experiment where he floated weights in > a water filled >..X..< > date, Keely > >was able to do this in the air. > > That's all quite true, to a certain point. But the physical > vibrations you listed are in the hundreds of MHz range. We can > generate physical vibrations, today, up to about 100 MHz -- but that > there's a vibration can only be measured by electrical/electronic > means (various quartz and ceramic crystals are piezo-electric -- they > deform when an electric potential is applied across the crystal). As I have been and remain in need of a powerful (50kw+) signal generator with a relatively wide frequency range, I also have been considering how this could be accomplished. (I do have a 'scope, at any rate). [ I am hoping to construct a low-tech hipower hi freq generator ] As far as measurement goes, I would expect that interference techniques should suffice, up to nearly the gigahz region. Think of a mirror reflecting light from the source onto vibrating/oscillating/etc slots tuned to known frequencies, or some such scheme. > >Keely apparently could measure the rates of > >vibration of these weights quite accurately and then alter them > (the rates) > >to suit his purposes; i.e., alter the "predominance from the > terrestrial to the > >celestial. Pg 100, > > I'd sure like to know the details of his measurements. How was he > able to detect the MHz range vibration on these weights? > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 08:23:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA14328; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:22:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:22:02 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105858.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:21:50 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com, little@earthtech.org From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment In-Reply-To: <004801c350c4$90134560$0a016ea8@cpq> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"HDsKJ1.0.oV3.QWg7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51321 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >When you say "The heat energy that drives the evaporation during the >cooldown period has already been counted." Yes, the input energy has been >accounted for - BUT that is immaterial in that we are now concerned with >*input relative to output* and in order to get an accurate appraisal of >the real output, one MUST not only include the immediate output energy but >also that which is not immediate but delayed. It is still part of the package. There was a similar dispute with the Hydrosonic Griggs gadget. In one series of tests, Griggs would rev up the machine, bring it to a stable temperature and stable operating condition, and then begin the test run. He would capture the steam by sparging it in a steel drum full of cold water. The dispute arose about his procedure at the end of this test. He turned off the pump and opened the valve discharging the rest of the steam while the hose was still submerged in the steel drum water. Some observers correctly point out that would add enthalpy into the water that was generated before the test began. After this objection was raised, Griggs modified the test. He submerged the steam hose at the beginning of the test and withdrew it 10 minutes later before turning off the machine and draining the remaining steam. (Note that the machine did not work unless the outlet hose was constricted, raising pressure inside the pump.) In Naudin's case, I do not know whether Little or Beene is correct. I have not yet studied the matter enough. However I think it depends upon when Naudin begins to measure the energy balance. Does he measure all input energy starting from the very beginning of the experiment when the water is at room temperature, or does he began when the temperature is already high? And how, exactly, does Little do it? If Little begins measuring when evaporation is already under way, and the rate of evaporation does not appear to change much, then I suppose he should take a segment of time from the beginning of his run to the end, and he should ignore subsequent evaporation and subsequent cooling down. If he is trying to capture all input and all enthalpy generated for the entire run, from room temperature water back to room temperature water, then it seems to me Beene is correct. Mizuno and Ohmori sometimes use two different methods for this. Ohmori usually grabs a segment of enthalpy from the middle of the run, for about 10 minutes, a method similar to Griggs'. He begins measuring when the cell appears to be producing excess heat in a fairly steady state condition. After turning off the power, he measures the cooling curve, but not in order to add in the enthalpy generated during that period. He does it to calculate how much heat is lost to radiation during the 10 minute run. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 08:28:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA17699; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:27:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:27:07 -0700 Message-ID: <20030723152700.95384.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:27:00 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: SurfaceTensionAcidity [was RE: Brown's gas mystery : was LENR commercial products for sale To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"dHnt3.0.NK4.Bbg7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51322 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: on the pump, try using it in a dual form, like the classic early heat engine? --- explorecraft wrote: > > More Anecdotal Notes from my own stuff: > > Perhaps this is a reason the water always seems > to have much higher surface tension after arcs and > whatnot. > I don't know if anyone else has remarked on this, > but aside from the buckets of iron, oxides and > other > associated electrolysis crud I regularly toss, > the surface tension of my experiments is always up > in > the realm of bubble-bath soap. > > And acidic! Last night I had a spewing pinwheel > which I hadn't noticed until this morning had > sprayed across a stainless steel ruler (brand new, > of course) > and the resulting corrosion was startling. > The 2 mm exhaust [DeLaval] orifices (in an ordinary > 'street-market' iron) > I had painstakingly drilled are now, > after less than 300 seconds of > operation, > corroded out to almost 3mm in diameter. > > It also explains why I can generate exceedingly > noisy > exhaust, without any significant reaction thrust > in what was my latest attempt to build a LENR > reaction drive. > [I did succeed, later, however in creating a very > intriguing > hot water pump - no moving parts!] > I can move water, but the explosion product > seems to implode so fast it develops no thrust. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, 2003 July 22 09:26 > > To: vortex > > Cc: wiseman@eagle-research.com > > Subject: Re: Brown's gas mystery : was LENR > commercial products for sale > > > > > > On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Jones Beene wrote: > > > > > Or preferably by BOTH. If you are listening to > this George, and want to > > > massively increase the production of Brown's > gas, USE CAVITATION in > > > addition to electrolysis. > > >X< > > > Huh. A hunk of it might be invisible (too close > to air's optical index), > > yet have higher pressure inside, higher density, > and surface tension. > > > >X< > > > Would pure BG form spheres? Sphere's of unstable > material which drift > > around the room... and explode if perturbed? > > > > Ball lightning. Ball lightning is "Brown's gas." > Or more likely the > > opposite: Brown's Gas is ball lightning produced > artifically. Maybe! > > Uhh, probably not what I saw, but: one of the key > characteristics > of what I was doing was the occurrence of what I > assumed to be > iron or sodium globules which looked a lot like > welding spray. > These little balls are spewed through the nozzles > and > then remain lit up for a thrown distance of maybe > 50cm > (emitting a yellowish-orange glow during flight) > for perhaps a half-second, and there are never any > remains to be found. > I will recheck this, if I get time. > Of course, with the nature of the arcs, I can't be > sure of anything > inside the chambers. Tried looking through welding > glasses, > but can't get close enough to see (2 m.) due to > hi-voltage spray. > > > If this connection is real, then maybe > freshly-produced Brown's Gas glows > > in the dark. Would it even burn if heated, or is > the usual "burning" of > > BG actually triggered by something on the micro > scale other than heat? It > > sure would be weird if you could heat BG to > extreme temperatures as long > > as you didn't expose it to any strong e-fields! > > > > > In either case, the charge > > > would cause the encasement structure to swell in > size, just as with any > > > ion. Water will be converted more efficiently by > electrolysis into this > > > gaseous fuel (the so-called Brown's gas) by > applying a spatially > > > extended electric field. That is, by permitting > nascent hydrogen with > > > the enhanced opportunity to be captured by the > proto-solid phase of > > > water, instead of forming the diatomic molecule, > production of the mixed > > > charge Brown's gas will be maximized. In effect, > water is transformed > > > into a previously undescribed (except > generically as Brown's gas) > > > acid-like, capacitor-like, molecular gas with a > HIGH molecular weight, > > > not low, which in the words of Todd Knudtson is > like a 'fluid crystal' > > > or by Wiseman's words - as "electrically > expanded water." > > > > interesting stuff to play with, on a leash... > > > Macro ion-crystal matter, see: > > http://amasci.com/freenrg/iontest.html#seven > > http://balllightning.narod.ru/ > > > > > > > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) > ))))))))))))))))))) > > William J. Beaty > http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ > > beaty@chem.washington.edu Research Engineer > > billb@eskimo.com UW Chem Dept, > Bagley Hall RM74 > > 206-543-6195 Box 351700, > Seattle, WA 98195-1700 > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 08:42:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA26720; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:41:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:41:09 -0700 Message-ID: <004b01c35130$55870d20$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105858.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:37:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA26528 Resent-Message-ID: <"PkSFy.0.QX6.Kog7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51323 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed and Scott > After turning off the power, he measures the cooling curve, but not in > order to add in the enthalpy generated during that period. He does it to > calculate how much heat is lost to radiation during the 10 minute run. Naudin is not measuring enthalpy that has been "created" after the cutoff - he is measuring enthalpy that was created during the run but the effects of which cannot be documented until the TOTAL mass lost to evaporation can be calculated. In a perfect world, of course, one would have a totally closed system and this argument would not be happening. I'm pretty sure that is the direction that Scott will try to go next - as he probably does not like these kinds of loose ends (and wouldn't want to be falsely accused of producing OU and not getting credit for it ;-) but also remember that the energy lost to photon radiation is significant in this type of cell - and that unaccounted-for radiation alone would drive Scott's cell way into OU, even if did not consider the total mass lost to enthalpy. Naudin, in recent tests has added a reflector to recapture some of it. Maybe Scott will try all of these things next, including recombination of the gas/vapor... That is the only way to achieve total accuracy. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 09:47:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA12610; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:46:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:46:21 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723120412.02828c90@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:36:03 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment In-Reply-To: <004b01c35130$55870d20$0a016ea8@cpq> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105858.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"riki93.0.e43.Slh7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51324 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Naudin is not measuring enthalpy that has been "created" after the cutoff >. . . Yes, I understand that. >- he is measuring enthalpy that was created during the run but the effects >of which cannot be documented until the TOTAL mass lost to evaporation can >be calculated. Yes, during the run, but WHEN during the run? If it was created before he began measuring input, then he should ignore it. If he measured all input from start to finish then of course he must measure all output, too, and you are right. If he holds off measuring input until high heat and steady state conditions are obtained, then Scott is right. I recommend the latter method, by the way. It can be tricky measuring enthalpy when conditions are changing from room temperature to 3000 degrees and back down again. It is easier to take a 10 minute sample from the peak and ignore the slopes going up and down. If there is no steady state and evaporation and other factors appear to be fluctuating rapidly, it is difficult to measure enthalpy no matter how you go about it. On a time scale of a minute or less, glow discharge output is extremely erratic and I do not think anyone can measure it reliably with conventional instruments. >but also remember that the energy lost to photon radiation is significant >in this type of cell Little's cells are opaque, so he captures all photo energy. (It is a problem they are opaque -- but not a calorimetry problem.) This is an interesting point as it applies to transparent cells. However, I doubt the photon energy is more than a tiny fraction of the total. Mizuno has run insulated cells with only a small peephole to observe the plasma. The results were not dramatically different from those of unshielded cells. Also, I have not noticed that objects placed near unshielded cells become palpably warm, but someone should check for this. The human eye is incredibly sensitive to photons. You can easily see mW level glowing LEDs, a power level far lower you can detect as heat or sound. If a cell was producing, say, 5 W of photon energy, I think it would blind the observers. This is a real concern. Mizuno insists that people wear sunglasses and not observe cells directly with the naked eye. > - and that unaccounted-for radiation alone would drive Scott's cell way > into OU . . . It is accounted for in Little's opaque cells, as I noted. >Maybe Scott will try all of these things next, including recombination of >the gas/vapor... > >That is the only way to achieve total accuracy. I think it is bad idea to try to achieve too much accuracy at this stage. If I were Scott, I would first concentrate on the electrochemistry. The first priority must be to accurately replicate the experiment performed by Mizuno and Ohmori. I cannot judge whether Scott is doing this or not. Actually, Mizuno says it is difficult for *him* to judge whether Scott is doing this are not, and if he can't judge, nobody can. Remember that Ohmori measures this effect easily using 18th-century and early 19th century techniques and instruments. Accuracy is not required. You might argue that Ohmori is doing it incorrectly, but to prove your hypothesis you have to demonstrate the same effects and see the same instrument readings Ohmori sees, using similar instruments. Then you show why these instrument readings do not mean what Ohmori thinks they mean, and there is actually a mundane explanation. If you never see the readings in the first place you have not replicated and you cannot draw any conclusions about his work. "Replicating" does not necessarily mean "seeing an interesting anomaly." It could mean you demonstrate how & why Ohmori's results are uninteresting and mundane. Either way, the first step must be to *see* these results. McKubre says he replicated several early CF claims and showed they have mundane explanations. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 09:54:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA17373; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:51:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:51:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:53:07 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: conextom@aol.com, Vortex Subject: Mixed In-Reply-To: <44.338acd06.2c4ee48b@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nkcRg.0.MF4.4qh7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51325 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Does anyone have example[s] of common definitions and glossary that can be used to bring some sense of uniform meaning to "mixed terminology" texts? Dear Tom, It looks as though the text below mixes several different t ypes of or sources of information. Further, it seems some of the terms have varied and different meanings as compared to dictionaries of technical terms. Some of the mixes appear to include: 1800s terms and present day terms mechanical or sound vibration and electromagnetic ''vibration'' optical terms and musical terms Unless and until some way to separate this mixing is applied the text you have is ambiguous. How will you evaluate the whole? How will you know if it is possible to use or apply the information or not? Are YOU going to "comb the bugs and bits of straw" out of the whole? If not you, then how is it going to get done? Text example: -------example of "mixed terminology" text ----------- On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 conextom@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/21/2003 10:52:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > xigent@rcn.com writes: > > > Now I understand that there are stable and unstable frequencies at which > > sub-atomic (nuclear) particles tri-vest. > > > > I understand also the emergence of quark sub nuclear particles, and the rate > > at which quarks among the other "nuclear" sub atomic particles are set > > in a triangular transformations may have a frequency of 66-536Mhz. > > I made a mistake in my earlier explanation's by misunderstanding how Keely's > ideas and devices worked with musical and sound ratios. > > According to Keely, "energy in the form of vibrating wavelets, precedes > matter or any solid substance. One must inevitably realize that if subatomic > particles are wavelets of varying frequencies and that all atoms and molecules are > composed of such particles then all atoms and molecules are nothing other than > "quantized bundles of vibrating energy", whose all-inclusive existence is > determined by the laws of vibrating motion and not by the laws of "classical > mechanics", as these laws are based on the assumption of a solid materiality. Pg > 97 Keely UL (Universal Laws Never Before Revealed: Keely's Secrets, > Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration by Dale Pond, John Keely, > Nikola Tesla, Edgar Cayce and seven others")" > > "When push comes to shove- what is the difference between "pure" energy and > "pure" matter anyway? Simply rate and mode of vibration. Keely's Theory is not > unlike String Theory ..The fundamental differences are in the overall > comprehensiveness of these theories and that which ties them together. To this date > the only truly comprehensive theory put forth has been Keely's. Pg 97 Keely > UL." > > "If everything is composed of vibrating bundles of focalized energies ...then > the connecting link must therefore be some aspect of vibration ...The only > difference between one frequency and another is that of rate and mode. What > determines rate is density or degree of focalization .., also ambient > modulations, and what determines mode is direction (relative to the neutral point of > focalization and periphery points of expansion). Pg 97 Keely UL" > > It also seems that Keely was using low energy physics and not high energy > physics to disintegrate water. The low energy may be a cold gravitational energy > or cold fusion energy that comes from the cold cosmic vacuum in the > environment, which is very different from the high and hot energy (warm or hot fusion) > that comes from the sun. Low vacuum energies conveyed by low frequency waves > such as sound in the gaseous environment tuned to a proper harmony by means > of harmonic progression in 3rds, 6ths, and 9ths, encoded in alternating metals > or quantum wells may act to tune the low vacuum energies like a keyboard to > disintegrate water and air gases into smaller elements in progression to create > more energy than was received from the environment by implosion or > cavetation. Keely uses musical notation in his notes to signify the musical harmonies > which are then encoded into alternating metals placed in geometric ratios of > thirds, sixths and ninths to harmonize the metals to focalize and disintegrate > water, air, and vacuum gases around the metals from the local environment to > create implosion in the gases from which more energy is released due to the > laws of cavetation - "The collapse of the smaller vapor filled cavities [during > cavitation] causes many extreme results as the intensity of the resulting shock > wave may be considerably greater than the originating action" Pg 176 Keely > UL. > > A quantum well works as follows, " This process is one where layers of atoms > of one material are nestled along or within layers of another atom thus > creating a "well" of atoms in which another atom can vibrate "at a given > ascertainable rate". The claim that electrons can be made to resonate like sound inside > an organ pipe. By exiting the isolated element tremendous laser power can > easily be generated by stimulating the particle into a quantum leap and thus a > release of energy. .. An aggregate of the ringing electron, is isolated from > bodies in a like state, that is they don't ring or vibrate at the same frequency. > It may also be said they are immersed (surrounded by matter in another state > (non-resonanting). The quantum leap required to emit the laser beam is then > induced from a know rate of frequency which has been stabilized within the active > element enclosed within the quantum well. " Vibrate an atomic substance with > an atomic vibration and heat and light are evolved, Keely." Pg 101 Keely UL" > > The pictures of Keely's Dyanasphere device on page 95 and 98, has a large > metal ball encircled by layers of metal strips, with a metal shaft running > through the metal ball. The most outer layer of metal strip around the metal ball > has triple's of metal pipes connected to it every 45 degrees making a total of > 8 triples as if the triple metal pipes interact with the vacuum gases by the > law of the thirds to disintegrate or concentrate the gases and transfer the > energy to the next ring which has one pipe placed every 51.42 degrees apart to > make 7 pipes. Then there is 3 pipes 120 degrees apart inside of the ball. There > are also small metal pipes which looks like tiny antennas in groups of 8 and > 4 placed in a circle connected to the central shaft passing through the metal > ball and also connected to a hollow metal wire which connects to another metal > ball. > > It appears that the small metal ball and metal pipe antennas concentrates or > focalizes the gas vacuum energy in the environment like a collector and > conveys the energy through the metal wire to the metal shaft in the metal ball; and > at the same time the outer metal rings also may concentrate the gas vacuum > energies into the metal ball to cause the metal ball to rotate and drive the > shaft which may be used to run a motor or generate electricity. The picture of > the compound disintegrator on page 105 also has several circular layers of > metal connected to metal pipes and wires placed in harmonic series to concentrate > and disintegrate local environmental vacuum and gas energies. The metals are > made of alternating elements of silver, copper, and platinum. The devices > when connected together work as explained below: > > "In submitting water to the influence of vibratory transmission, even on > simple thirds, the high action induced on the hydrogen as contrasted with the one > on the oxygen under the same vibratory system causes the antagonism between > these elements that induces dissociation. The differential antagonistic range > of motion, so favoring the antagonistic thirds as to become thoroughly > repellent. The gaseous element thus induced and registered, shows thousands of times > much greater force as regards tenuity and volume than that induced by the > chemical disintegration of heat, on the same medium. In all other molecular > dissociation or disintegration of both simple and compound, whether gaseous or > solid, a stream of vibratory antagonistic thirds, sixths, and ninths on their > chord mass will compel progressive subdivisions" > > These triple conditions are focalized on the neutral center of said > instrument as to induce prefect harmony on concordance to the chord note of the mass > chord of the instruments full combination, after which the diatonic and the > enharmonic scale located at the top of the instrument, or ring, is thoroughly > harmonized with the scale of the ninths, which is placed at the base of the > vibratory transmitter with the telephone head. The next step is to disturb the > harmony of the concentrative thirds, between the transmitter and the di > sintegrator. This is done by rotating the siren so as to induce a sympathetic > communication along the nodal transmitter or wire that associates the two instruments. > When the note of the siren becomes concordant to the neutral center of the > disintegrator, the highest order of sympathetic communication is established. It > is now necessary to operate the transferable vibratory negatizer or negative > accelerator, which is seated in the center of the diatonic or enharmonic ring, > at the top of the disintegrator, and complete disintegration will follow (from > the antagonism induced on the concordants by said adjunct) in triple > progression, thus: First thirds: Molecular disassociation resolving the water into a > gaseous compound of hydrogen and oxygen. Second sixths, resolving the hydrogen > and oxygen into a new element by second order of dissociation, producing what > I will call low atomic ether. Third: ninths, the low atomic ether resolved > into a new element which I denominate high or secondary atomic harmonic. All of > these transmissions being simultaneous on the disturbance of sympathetic > equilibrium by said negative accelerator. Pg 80 Keely UL'' > > Keely's devices above are very similar to Professor Searl's Engine device, > which uses the law of the squares musical ratios to place alternating metallic > and magnetic elements on the periodic table in concentric metal spheres to pull > in vacuum energies that move magnetic cylinders by energetic opposition > around the spheres to run a motor or generate energy. > ------------ end example of "mixed terminology" text ----------- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 10:26:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA09449; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:23:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:23:51 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723131243.027e2af8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:22:29 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723120412.02828c90@pop.mindspring.com> References: <004b01c35130$55870d20$0a016ea8@cpq> <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105858.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"w9nVm2.0.YJ2.dIi7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51326 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >If he measured all input from start to finish then of course he must >measure all output, too, and you are right. If he holds off measuring >input until high heat and steady state conditions are obtained, then Scott >is right. > >I recommend the latter method, by the way. I should add that you need a cell with a reasonably short time-constant for this to work. If the cell lags and it take a half-hour to release a significant fraction of the enthalpy (in vapor or by radiation) the 10-minute sample method would not work. (I can't imagine why it would take any time to release vapor . . . but anyway . . .) I guess it wouldn't work. Maybe it would if the output were very stable and unchanging. But how could you tell? Anyway, glow discharge is never stable. The gigantic cells that Mills made years ago from plastic garbage pails would never work with a 10 minute test. That's an extreme example. They worked fine with 10 day tests. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 10:45:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA24620; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:43:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:43:37 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:48:48 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, little@earthtech.org From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Naudin-Mizuno experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"ES6bR2.0.a06.8bi7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51327 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:21 AM 7/23/3, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >Mizuno and Ohmori sometimes use two different methods for this. Ohmori >usually grabs a segment of enthalpy from the middle of the run, for about >10 minutes, a method similar to Griggs'. He begins measuring when the cell >appears to be producing excess heat in a fairly steady state condition. >After turning off the power, he measures the cooling curve, but not in >order to add in the enthalpy generated during that period. He does it to >calculate how much heat is lost to radiation during the 10 minute run. > >- Jed I've done a number of this kind of experiment. The method I finally settled upon as best was to pre-heat the electrolyte to boiling, then immdiately insulate it, and then take a net weight. (I seldom acutually did that, though, as heating to boiling did not boil off a significant amount when the heating process was carefully watched.) The "reheated" amount to boiling was then insignificant. At the sart of the experiment the electrolyte was typically at 99 C. or so. This method is only invalid if the remaining electrolyte and apparatus (during the cooldown period) is somehow significantly different in some thermal quaility, like specific heat, thermal conductivity, heat after death, etc. I found that stirring eliminated a number of variables and increased repeatability. Further, comparing the cool-down curve for live vs blank and other live-but-no-excess heat runs then eliminates the possibility that the electrolyte or electrode thermal properties changed significantly during any of the runs. A calibration resistor in the cell is useful for this purpose. It is also important not to run the experiment too long, unless a water replensihing capability is added (which I never did), because a large drop in electrolyte level affects the cell thermal properties to some extent. I would have liked to have been able to measure cell weight during the process but never took it that far. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 11:34:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA19857; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:33:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:33:31 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723142543.02e16990@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:31:06 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: 5 W photon hazard In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723120412.02828c90@pop.mindspring.com> References: <004b01c35130$55870d20$0a016ea8@cpq> <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105858.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7nN8Z1.0.6s4.xJj7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51328 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I wrote: >If a cell was producing, say, 5 W of photon energy, I think it would blind >the observers. This is a real concern. And that was a seat-of-the-pants estimate. A 100 W incandescent bulb produces 5 W of light. I believe it is not a good idea to stare at a 100 W bulb at short range for more than a few seconds. I do not know whether it produces permanent damage. I have a 300 W incandescent worklight which I guess produces ~15 W photon energy. It has a sticker warning you not to look into the light directly. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 15:07:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA10699; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:05:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:05:30 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723173816.02e87628@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:04:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com, chubb@ccf.nrl.navy.mil, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Comparing Little, Naudin, Mizuno & Ohmori Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_rWTu1.0.5d2.fQm7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51329 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I reread Little's report a couple of times. I believe he is doing the calorimetry correctly, and I agree with his conclusions. I too do not understand why Naudin adds in the enthalpy lost during the cooling phase. Perhaps he measures all enthalpy from beginning to end. Little is using the same method that Mizuno and Ohmori usually use, and he measures the cooling curve for the same reason they do: to determine how much heat is lost by conduction and convection during the segment of the run they measure output. Let me define that a little more carefully. Mizuno records all input and output during the entire run, and he can easily compute the total input and enthalpy out, but he generally zeroes in on a portion of the data starting from the time the temperature exceeds 80 deg C until the moment he turns off the input power. This is the same method Little uses. When you examine all input starting from room temperature, you end up looking at a lot of uninteresting data and you compute a low average for excess heat. It is like looking at the data for a bulk Pd cathode that takes a month to load, and including all of the input power for that month to compute the average excess. Okay let's compare Little and Mizuno. First, the similarities. As I said they have used the same basic method of calorimetry. Mizuno has also used other methods such as bomb calorimetry. No single method is superior in all respects, and all methods sometimes show excess heat when conditions are right. That is a good sign. Little's graph looks similar to any number of blank runs and failed runs performed by Mizuno. The energy balance is zero, and there are no fluctuations in the input or output. Mizuno produced graphs like this for about a year (I think he said) before he began to see excess heat. He produced several null graphs while I was there, most of them deliberately in order to show how the calorimetry worked. He feels that Naudin should do this. When there is excess heat, the graph looks very different. The lines are not smooth; they fluctuate violently. Instantaneous measures of output power show very clear heat bursts, sometimes as much as three times input. Strictly speaking these are not measures of output power, they are of temperature only and they do not include water vapor, and so on. Mizuno can only generate a total graph of output power after the run, but even the temperature graph produced during the run shows violent fluctuations when there is excess heat, completely unlike the graphs of null runs. See, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm Okay, let's look at some major differences. Stability. As discussed above, when there is excess heat both input and output fluctuate violently. Number of runs. Little made 15 runs using a Dewar flask. Perhaps he made other runs not documented here, but if he made only 15 total he has hardly begun. Mizuno ran these tests for a year or two with help from Ohmori before he began to see definite results. That's around 500 to 1000 runs, I think. Duration of run. Little ran for 210 seconds usually (3.5 minutes). Mizuno runs for 15 minutes to one hour, until the cathode disintegrates. As far as I know, Mizuno and Ohmori see no effect until about five or ten minutes after the plama appears, when the cathode is significantly eroded. (I THINK the data shown at the web site has time zero after the plasma appeared, or it shows a cathode being restarted for Run #2 in hot electrolyte -- a handy technique. I will check.) I do not recall seeing cases of excess heat after only three minutes, although I have only examined a handful of runs out of the hundreds on file. I do not know why there is a delay. Ed Storms may be able to explain it with his theory regarding finely divided particles. Direct visual observation of plasma. Mizuno and Ohmori have repeatedly emphasized how important this is. The photographs shown on the web page are not good quality but they are the best we can come up with. The actual difference is easier to see with naked eye. (You can also hear a distinct difference, which is hard to describe.) As I noted previously, Little performs this experiment in an opaque cells, so there is no telling what his plasma looks like, or whether it is exhibiting any of the signs Mizuno and Ohmori say are essential. To make a long story short, I do not think it is possible to perform this experiment in the setup that Little has selected. If we knew more about the nature of the plasma and how to achieve it, the experiment could be done without visual observation. In the future engines based on this phenomenon will not be regulated by people looking through peepholes! I believe the last time engines required peepholes was around 1935 . . . when, as it happened, my father was trying to ignite an oil-fired marine steam engine in a freighter at anchor off Caracas, Venezuela. (Or maybe it was New York.) Anyway, to fire up these engines you used a long stick with a flame at the end, like a giant match. You jammed it through a hole, and then you would get as close as you dared and look inside, where nothing was happing in this case. (Heat balance = 0; no excess). It finally caught on with a Woomp! -- and it blew a flame out the hole which singed off his eyebrows and much the hair on his head, which eventually grew back. I digress . . . The last point: Emphasis on electrochemistry rather than instruments. As I said, Mizuno approached the problem from the electrochemistry point of view for a long time before he made progress. Ohmori uses such primitive instruments they would be familiar to J. P. Joule (except for the weight scale). His data recording device is a pencil and a pad of paper. He keeps time on a windup stopwatch. Ohmori describes himself as "an analog human" (pre-computer; stone age). He says that if you do not see the effect on a large scale, nothing is happening and there is no point in trying to detect it or analyze events on a much finer scale. I wonder why Scott Little is making such sensitive instruments rather than trying to learn how to produce the effect the way Ohmori does it. This is putting the cart before the horse. As I said earlier, Ohmori may be making a mistake. Perhaps Scott Little could use instruments similar to Ohmori's to demonstrate why these results are actually uninteresting and mundane. (To use the very same instruments you would have to rob a museum.) It seems to me this would be better use of Little's time than making precision instruments for an experiment that shows no sign of producing an effect -- not even a hint. If Ohmori claimed he sees only tiny, marginal effects then of course one would have to start by constructing sensitive instruments, but he says you can easily see the effect with primitive instruments. When Little concentrates on making sensitive instruments instead of learning the experimental technique, he reminds me a little of the researchers in 1989 and 1990 who continued to look for neutrons even after P&F and everyone else who detected CF claimed there are no neutrons. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 16:32:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA27671; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:30:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:30:59 -0700 Message-ID: <003b01c35172$016195c0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: SurfaceTensionAcidity [was RE: Brown's gas mystery : was LENR commercial products for sale Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:27:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA27550 Resent-Message-ID: <"KV34h.0._l6.ogn7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51330 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "explorecraft" > And acidic! Last night I had a spewing pinwheel > which I hadn't noticed until this morning had > sprayed across a stainless steel ruler (brand new, of course) > and the resulting corrosion was startling. Are you using cavitation plus electrolysis or just straight electrolysis? There is definite synergy, surprising synergy, when combining cavitation with electrolysis - versus either of the two techniques done separately. If you want to take a scientific "acid trip" drop you input voltage *below* that which will cause actual water-splitting (1 volt is good) and apply cavitation at about 40 kHz to very cold water (near freezing). The interesting thing is the how the variables come into play - low amps and low cavitation will give you a modest base (probably peroxide) over time, high amps and cavitation will give a strong acid. I have gotten pH below 2 in 15 minutes or so....thanks to some recent advice, if you apply negative charge to a cathode/condenser that is top mounted *above the water* or near the surface, you will get faster results. BTW you will have to use either a deep reactor with the transducer placed on the bottom, or pressurization to suppress misting. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 16:49:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA06237; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:47:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:47:41 -0700 Message-ID: <003f01c35174$57607020$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004b01c35130$55870d20$0a016ea8@cpq> <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105858.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723142543.02e16990@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: 5 W photon hazard Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:44:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA06091 Resent-Message-ID: <"WlSoL1.0.7X1.Rwn7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51331 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > >If a cell was producing, say, 5 W of photon energy, I think it would blind > >the observers. This is a real concern. > > And that was a seat-of-the-pants estimate. A 100 W incandescent bulb > produces 5 W of light. I believe it is not a good idea to stare at a 100 W > bulb at short range for more than a few seconds. I do not know whether it > produces permanent damage. I have a 300 W incandescent worklight which I > guess produces ~15 W photon energy. It has a sticker warning you not to > look into the light directly. A 100 W incandescent bulb can theoretically - and will produce nearly 100 watts of photon energy, not the 5 watts as you state. The thermal energy produced, the "heat" is photon radiation in the form of IR photons. These are not visible radiation but they are photons, nevertheless. The point being that there is very little kinetic (convection) energy transfer. Plus, the Mizuno type cell bears more resemblance to a plasma lamp than an incandescant lamp. A high pressure sodium lamp, which is closer to the Mizuno cell than is an incandescent lamp, will return at least 50% of the input electrical energy in the form of visible photons. The image that Scott has provided shows a glowing cell, I would call it "brightly glowing", as opposed to opaque. However it does not have that "rosy" glow that Naudin associates with OU (and probably Mizuno as well). Opaque cells capture most IR but pass higher energy photons, as a rule. Without more info, Scott could well be loosing a fair proportion, as much as a quarter of the input electrical energy to photon radiation. That would place his cell clearly OU without recourse to consideration of evaporation. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 18:40:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA14987; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:39:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:39:02 -0700 Message-ID: <005101c35184$4592d710$ab5accd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004b01c35130$55870d20$0a016ea8@cpq> <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105858.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723142543.02e16990@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: 5 W photon hazard Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:37:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"qG0My3.0.wf3.sYp7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51332 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > I wrote: > > >If a cell was producing, say, 5 W of photon energy, I think it would blind > >the observers. This is a real concern. > > And that was a seat-of-the-pants estimate. A 100 W incandescent bulb > produces 5 W of light. I believe it is not a good idea to stare at a 100 W > bulb at short range for more than a few seconds. I do not know whether it > produces permanent damage. I have a 300 W incandescent worklight which I > guess produces ~15 W photon energy. It has a sticker warning you not to > look into the light directly. > > - Jed The essence of the matter is the energy density of the image produced on the retina. A 100 W incandescent lamp with a fortes envelope may be uncomfortable to look at but is probably not dangerous. I have some folded spiral compact fluorescent lamps with 150 W equivalent output which I can look at without strain. A halogen worklight is a very concentrated source of both visible and UV radiation and is not good for the retina, as the image formed is small. This is also the problem with lasers; the lens focuses the beam energy to a point on the retina. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 23 19:39:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA17291; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:39:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:39:02 -0700 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: Acidity [x RE: SurfaceTension [x RE: Brown's gas mystery [x LENR commercial products for sale Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:35:43 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <003b01c35172$016195c0$0a016ea8@cpq> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"tuY8v3.0.5E4.6Rq7_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51333 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the advice! I am wondering if I could pre-condition this to be more basic and then feed that output into my firing chamber. I am thinking along the lines of pumping the water through some kind of resonance chamber, where the initial flow+pressure can be used to generate the frequencies necessary for cavitation. [I currently lack funds to purchase a signal generator, so I am rather stuck on 19th century techniques to achieve cavitation] Or perhaps I can rig up some kind of 20/40 khz motor generator - only problem is this is sine wave whereas I would need to square it off to get best results. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Thursday, 2003 July 24 06:28 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: SurfaceTensionAcidity [was RE: Brown's gas mystery : was > LENR commercial products for sale >.X.< > water (near freezing). The interesting thing is the how the > variables come into play - low amps and low cavitation will give > you a modest base (probably peroxide) over time, high amps and > cavitation will give a strong acid. I have gotten pH below 2 in > 15 minutes or so....thanks to some recent advice, if you apply > negative charge to a cathode/condenser that is top mounted *above > the water* or near the surface, you will get faster results. > > BTW you will have to use either a deep reactor with the > transducer placed on the bottom, or pressurization to suppress misting. > > Jones > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 24 08:56:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA09374; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:53:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:53:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 5 W photon hazard In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723142543.02e16990@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2DHuZ3.0.HI2.e308_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51334 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > >If a cell was producing, say, 5 W of photon energy, I think it would blind > >the observers. This is a real concern. > > And that was a seat-of-the-pants estimate. A 100 W incandescent bulb > produces 5 W of light. I believe it is not a good idea to stare at a 100 W > bulb at short range for more than a few seconds. This is an interesting issue: how dangerous is near-infrared? Incandescent bulbs produce huge amounts of photon energy, but your retinal dye molecules respond to only about 10% of it. The sun does this too. I wonder if human eyes are far more robust than we believe. If they can survive the retinal burning of many tens of watts of near-IR light, then it would take an incredibly bright visual source to present any danger. (Lasers, arc lamps, and other sources of spatially coherent light are a special case because the eye's lens can focus the light to an extremely small spot.) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 24 10:09:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA17755; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:07:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:07:03 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:09:13 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: alexander hollins cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Acidic water and electric arc In-Reply-To: <20030723152700.95384.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"e9KyG.0.IL4.s818_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51335 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., If an arc is established which cojoins air, water and the electric current action of ionizing gases one rapidly develops acidity in water from dissolved oxides of nitrogen. This is one of the mechanisms of Nature where by gaseous nitrogen is converted to soluble nitrogen-bearing compounds. JH From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 24 10:16:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA22329; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:14:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:14:22 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030724125028.02e8a390@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:11:14 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 5 W photon hazard In-Reply-To: <003f01c35174$57607020$0a016ea8@cpq> References: <004b01c35130$55870d20$0a016ea8@cpq> <5.2.1.1.0.20030722162659.042f14c0@earthtech.org> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723105858.00adc368@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030723142543.02e16990@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3nVj11.0.hS5.jF18_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51336 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >A 100 W incandescent bulb can theoretically - and will produce nearly 100 >watts of photon energy, not the 5 watts as you state. That can't be. The bulbs grow extremely hot. Tens of watts are converted to heat. A stream of warm air rises from the lamps and causes cobwebs or cloth above them to flutter. The cobwebs could not be absorbing photons and heating themselves that much, and air does not stop photons. Also, all industry publications I have seen indicate that conversion efficiency is 5%. >The image that Scott has provided shows a glowing cell, I would call it >"brightly glowing", as opposed to opaque. In the website text Little explained that this was a transparent cell used for the photograph, but normally they use an opaque cell. > However it does not have that "rosy" glow that Naudin associates with OU > (and probably Mizuno as well). Yes. I forgot to mention that. I also forgot to list some major differences in materials: Mizuno & Ohmori use a pure tungsten foil. Little uses a 2% thoriated tungsten rod. As I noted previously, M&O use platinum anodes, Little uses stainless steel. Perhaps I am mistaken but Little's photograph seems to show a wooden dowel, which I presume is also installed in the cell. This seems like an unwise choice of materials. M&O use Millie-Q purified water and high purity reagents. Little uses distilled water. (Mizuno spends hours purifying and cleaning materials before performing the experiment; I do not know how rigorously Little does this.) I do not know whether these differences in materials have an impact on the experiment, but it would not surprise me if they did. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 06:40:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA22719; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 06:38:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 06:38:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3F21333D.1080505@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:40:13 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: ICE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MXUtR1.0.gY5.cBJ8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51337 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why does ice float on water? Won't most solids sink when placed in a liquid of the same material? Inquiring minds want to know. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 06:57:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA30346; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 06:56:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 06:56:06 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICE Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:54:02 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <3F21333D.1080505@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <3F21333D.1080505@rtpatlanta.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA30283 Resent-Message-ID: <"ua4b_2.0.vP7.sRJ8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51338 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:40:13 -0400, you wrote: >Why does ice float on water? Won't most solids sink when placed in a >liquid of the same material? > >Inquiring minds want to know. --- When water freezes it expands, so a unit volume of it weighs less than a unit volume of water. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 07:07:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA02522; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:05:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:05:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3F213996.4020609@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:07:18 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICE References: <3F21333D.1080505@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3jH0V.0.Kd.waJ8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51339 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Fields wrote: >When water freezes it expands, so a unit volume of it weighs less than a >unit volume of water. > > > Yes, I understand that, but why does water expand in the solid state? Don't most materials condense? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 07:13:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA06623; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:12:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:12:54 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c352b6$60cd5220$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <3F21333D.1080505@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: ICE Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:09:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA06591 Resent-Message-ID: <"A97v1.0.Pd1.chJ8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51340 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: Subject: ICE > Why does ice float on water? Won't most solids sink when placed in a > liquid of the same material? > > Inquiring minds want to know. Ah...did one of your children ambush you with a "summer science's" question? Here is the answer (that almost no one without a photographic memory can remember precisely). When a water molecule freezes, it becomes a fully hydrogen-bonded structure with strong and straight hydrogen bonds (such as hexagonal ice) then it can only have four nearest neighbors, due to the angles of its near tetrahedral molecular hydrogen sites. In the liquid phase, molecules approach more closely due to the partial collapse of the tightly hydrogen bonded network. Closer neighbors mean higher density. As the temperature of liquid water increases, the continuing collapse of the hydrogen bonded network allows unbonded molecules to approach more closely so increasing the number of nearest neighbors. The maximum density of water is a most curious feature, as it occurs at 4 degrees C. Regular ice is lower density but there are many varieties of ice (yes the IS an Ice-9) where the density is higher than liquid water and these ices would not float. Ice-9 , BTW, is 16 percent denser than water. Vonnegut was a little more thorough than you thought....right? This behavior is in contrast to normal liquids where the increasing kinetic energy of molecules and space available due to expansion, as the temperature is raised, means that it becomes less likely that molecules will be found closer to each other and the density always decreases with increasing temperature. >From Martin Chaplin's website (the best place on the web to learn about water): http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/index.html Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 11:06:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA32009; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:04:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:04:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3F217175.6030705@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:05:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICE References: <3F21333D.1080505@rtpatlanta.com> <000501c352b6$60cd5220$0a016ea8@cpq> In-Reply-To: <000501c352b6$60cd5220$0a016ea8@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kjmtj.0._p7.T4N8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51341 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Ah...did one of your children ambush you with a "summer science's" question? > It would have been grandchildren. :-) Actually, the question came up on another list. Thanks for your answer and web reference! I now recall the discussion in a high school physics class about snowflakes. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 12:49:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA30070; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:47:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:47:30 -0700 Message-ID: <009601c352e5$1b205cc0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: More on the macro-molecular structure of water Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:44:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0093_01C352AA.6E120AE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"tBB5Y1.0.gL7.IbO8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51342 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C352AA.6E120AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How does the macro-molecular structure of water relate to its electric = properties and energy content?=20 We know that the wavefunction of free electrons will change, sometimes = drastically, when these electrons are confined to dimensions comparable = with their wavelength.=20 Electron confinement and quantization phenomena are significant in = semiconductors at dimensions of 200 nm, whereas in metals they typically = are seen at 1 nm. Almost all modern computers depend on QM confinement = and tunneling of electrons - which is accomplished by manufacturing = semiconductor structures of precise dimensions. Water can be considered = either dielectric or semiconductor, depending on impurities. In water, electron confinement and quantization phenomena are likely to = be most noticeable near the dimensions where hidden water structure - = the water icosahedron starts to play an important role.=20 According to statistical physics, the average de Broglie wavelength of a = free or aqueous electron at thermal equilibrium is about 6 nm. According = to Martin Chaplin, the average diameter of the water icosahedron is = about 3 nm. This coincidence is quite fortuitous, because water can act = like a half-wavelength antenna for free electrons and capture them from = any number of sources. In a number of situations, we know that half or = quarter wavelength antennae are more effective at capture than exact = wavelength. Martin's site, where hidden water structure is discussed: http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html What does this mean for "free energy" aficionados? For starters, consider the few other energy-related things that are = "free". One of the most relevant free items in the energy world is = "ground" - a potentially unlimited source of "free" electrons, if = properly implemented. BTW... many, if not most, ground conditions are = not optimized for free electrons, and curiously, one can often cohere as = many free electrons from air than from ground, but nevertheless... The $64 question related to "ground" is this: is any degree of free = energy possible by capturing free electrons in water from ground or from = air at the more energetic end of the Maxwellian distribution, and then = rejecting them back to ground at the less energetic end ? Or can the = aqueous electrons provide a catalytic role that accomplishes something = similar? Keep in mind that energy content is a reverse function of wavelength, = and also that we are dealing with a factional eV here, so everything has = to be super-efficient. Electrons are easily captured by magnetic = fields...that could help...but using them in chemical reactions is even = more of a promising avenue. Also...there is one other relevant and proven free source provided by = nature. We know that a few water molecules will always naturally split = apart to create free H+ and OH- ions. This happenstance may in fact be = the result of aqueous electron influence. A liter of pure deionized = water contains 1 x 10^-7 moles of "natural" free protons and an equal = number of OH- ions. This is a significant number of protons, namely: = 6.02 x 10^16 or 60,200,000,000,000,000 but that number always becomes = much larger with increasing "acidity," and the capture of free electrons = from ground or air could (in theory) promote just such an increase in = acidity. Plus, if you somehow remove protons, or hide their influence, = they will naturally reappear in water without any "real" work being = required.=20 Unlike electrons, protons are not influenced very much by most permanent = magnets, although the newer NIB supermagnets are getting to the level = where they will capture protons. And one more interesting thing. A = proton (nascent hydrogen) "wants" to find an electron very badly but it = needs an electron with an effective wavelength of about an angstrom, = about sixty times less than that of the aqueous electron which has been = captured by a water icosahedron. Therefore, protons and aqueous = electrons can coexist as separate entities for longer than you may = realize, acting somewhat like a capacitor - and a magnetic field might = be imposed to help out. This emphasis on atomic hydrogen is very important because the bond = energy in the gaseous diatomic species of hydrogen H-H is 436 kJ mol^-1, = so whenever one is able to react atomic hydrogen, as is found in acids - = as opposed to hydrogen gas - the energy carrier that gets all the = publicity - this bond energy is essentially "free"!=20 It is about 2.5 more energy than is available per unit weight than H2. = And since hydrogen gas is already 3 times more energy dense than = gasoline, the ratio becomes 7.5 to 1, by comparison. It is therefore = possible that a strong natural acid-like structure can play a role in = free energy phenomena. Bottom line: combine water, air, a source of free electrons, ambient = heat and turbulence. If done on a large scale (by mother nature = herself), we will get a hurricane. An average hurricane contains many = megatons of energy - the equivalent of many nuclear bombs. Can't the same be done on a small scale, when a special kind of = electrified water is enhanced by cavitation and enriched by magnetic = separation, optimized so as to power one's house and auto? The physics' = establishment says NO, absolutely NOT, there is no free lunch... What do you say? Jones=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C352AA.6E120AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

How does the macro-molecular structure of water relate = to=20 its electric properties and energy content?

We know that the wavefunction of free = electrons will change,=20 sometimes drastically, when these electrons are confined to = dimensions=20 comparable with their wavelength.

Electron confinement and quantization phenomena are = significant in=20 semiconductors at dimensions of 200 nm, whereas in metals they = typically are seen at 1 nm. Almost all modern computers depend on QM = confinement=20 and tunneling of electrons - which is accomplished by manufacturing=20 semiconductor structures of precise dimensions. Water can be considered = either=20 dielectric or semiconductor, depending on impurities.

In water, electron confinement and quantization = phenomena are=20 likely to be most noticeable near the dimensions where hidden water = structure -=20 the water icosahedron starts to play an important role.

According to statistical physics, the average de Broglie = wavelength of a free or aqueous electron at thermal equilibrium=20 is about 6 nm. According to Martin Chaplin, the average diameter of = the=20 water icosahedron is about 3 nm. This coincidence is quite fortuitous, = because=20 water can act like a half-wavelength antenna for free electrons and = capture them=20 from any number of sources. In a number of situations, we know that half = or=20 quarter wavelength antennae are more effective at capture than = exact=20 wavelength.

Martin's site,  where hidden water structure is=20 discussed:

http://www.sbu.ac.uk/wa= ter/clusters.html

 

What does this mean for "free energy" aficionados?

For starters, consider the few other energy-related = things that=20 are "free". One of the most relevant free items in the energy world is = "ground"=20 - a potentially unlimited source of "free" electrons, if properly=20 implemented. BTW... many, if not most, ground conditions are not = optimized for=20 free electrons, and curiously, one can often cohere as many free = electrons from=20 air than from ground, but nevertheless...

The $64 question related to "ground" is this: is any = degree of=20 free energy possible by capturing free electrons in water from ground or = from=20 air at the more energetic end of the Maxwellian distribution, and then = rejecting=20 them back to ground at the less energetic end ? Or can the aqueous=20 electrons provide a catalytic role that accomplishes something = similar?

Keep in mind that energy content is a reverse function = of=20 wavelength, and also that we are dealing with a factional eV here, so = everything=20 has to be super-efficient. Electrons are easily captured by magnetic=20 fields...that could help...but using them in chemical reactions is even = more of=20 a promising avenue.

Also...there is one other relevant and proven free = source provided=20 by nature. We know that a few water molecules will always naturally = split=20 apart to create free H+ and OH- ions. This happenstance may in fact = be the=20 result of aqueous electron influence. A liter of pure deionized = water=20 contains 1 x 10^-7 moles of "natural" free protons and an equal number = of OH-=20 ions.  This is a significant number of protons, namely: 6.02 x = 10^16 or=20 60,200,000,000,000,000 but that number always becomes much = larger with=20 increasing "acidity," and the capture of free electrons from ground or = air could=20 (in theory) promote just such an increase in acidity. Plus, if you = somehow=20 remove protons, or hide their influence, they will naturally reappear in = water=20 without any "real" work being required.

Unlike electrons, protons are not influenced very much = by most=20 permanent magnets, although the newer NIB supermagnets are getting to = the level=20 where they will capture protons. And one more interesting thing. A = proton=20 (nascent hydrogen) "wants" to find an electron very badly but it = needs an=20 electron with an effective wavelength of about an angstrom, about sixty = times=20 less than that of the aqueous electron which has been captured by a = water=20 icosahedron. Therefore, protons and aqueous electrons can coexist as = separate=20 entities for longer than you may realize, acting somewhat like a = capacitor - and=20 a magnetic field might be imposed to help out.

This emphasis on atomic hydrogen is very important = because the=20 bond energy in the gaseous diatomic species of hydrogen H-H is 436 = kJ=20 mol^-1, so whenever one is able to react atomic hydrogen, as is found in = acids -=20 as opposed to hydrogen gas - the energy carrier that gets all the=20 publicity - this bond energy is essentially "free"!

It is about 2.5 more energy than is available per unit=20 weight than H2. And since hydrogen gas is already 3 times more = energy dense=20 than gasoline, the ratio becomes 7.5 to 1, by comparison. It is = therefore=20 possible that a strong natural acid-like structure can play a role = in free=20 energy phenomena.

Bottom line: combine water, air, a source of free = electrons,=20 ambient heat and turbulence. If done on a large scale (by mother nature=20 herself), we will get a hurricane. An average hurricane contains = many=20 megatons of energy - the equivalent of many nuclear bombs.

Can't the same be done on a small scale, when = a special=20 kind of electrified water is enhanced by cavitation and enriched by = magnetic=20 separation, optimized so as to power one's house and auto? The = physics' establishment says NO, absolutely NOT, there is no free = lunch...

What do you say?

Jones

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C352AA.6E120AE0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 15:16:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA08923; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:14:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:14:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3F21AA67.42504519@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:08:39 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 25 Jul 03] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"meJ4q2.0.LB2.vkQ8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51343 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 25 Jul 03 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:24:45 -0400 From: "What's New" Reply-To: opa@aps.org To: "What's New" WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 25 Jul 03 Washington, DC (Andrew Essin contributed to this issue of What's New.) 1. DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS: 9 YEARS AND 100 DEATHS LATER. The 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act left the industry almost unregulated, exempting manufacturers from proving safety or effectiveness. If you have never used the WN search engine, start now. Go to www.aps.org/WN/ , type in "Dietary Supplement." The current scandal involving the herbal supplement ephedra erupted with the death of Orioles pitcher Steve Bechler (WN 14 March 2003). It may bring about a change; Secretary of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, asked the Congress on Wednesday to revise the law to give the FDA greater authority. 2. CLIMATE CHANGE: NOW HERE'S THE PLAN, WE STUDY THE PROBLEM. Yesterday, the Administration released its Climate Change Science Program, a draft of which was circulated in December (WN 6 Dec 2002). The White House is sticking to its standard solution: wring your hands about the problem and call for more research. In all, the various agencies spent a year and a half putting the plan together. The aim is to address the most crucial questions in the next four years. It's hard to object to a call for more research, but we seem to be using science to stall action. 3. VOTING MACHINES: "HANGING CHAD" WASN'T SO BAD. There is no way to independently verify results of electronic voting machines that run on proprietary code (WN 25 April 03). Worse yet, teams at Johns Hopkins and Rice analyzed one leading company's system and found gaping holes in security, leaving the system open to both insider and outsider attacks. 4. PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM: THE NATION'S TOP CIVILIAN HONOR Weapons of mass destruction are hard to find in Iraq, but in this country, contributions to methods of mass fatality are recognized with the Medal of Freedom. Recipients this week included: Edward Teller for the H-bomb, Charlton Heston for the Saturday-night special, and Dave Thomas for Wendy's square hamburger with fries. 5. INFINITE ENERGY: REVOLUTIONARY AIRCRAFT IS POWERED BY GRAVITY. An ad in the Wall Street Journal last week sought investors for a fuel-less aircraft. The idea is refreshing; unlike free-energy scams that tap the zero-point energy, or shield gravity, Hunt Aircraft Corp. proposes to do it the old-fashioned way, i.e., violate Conservation of Energy. Helium bags lift the winged craft vertically, whereupon the helium is compressed to make the craft heavier than air. It then glides downward. At low altitude, the cycle is repeated. Aha!, you say, compressing the gas takes work. These guys aren't that dumb. As it glides, a wind-turbine will generate the power. The inventor has applied for a patent, but our research uncovered the shocking similarity to Tom Swift's "Black Hawk" airship described in Tom Swift and His Electric Rifle (Grosset & Dunlap, New York, 1911). THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to: To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 22:36:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA06075; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:35:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:35:42 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <10e.2482b5d4.2c536d06@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:35:02 EDT Subject: Using HAARP technologies & Pyramids to clean the atmosphere from pollutants To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, wpeterson2@comcast.net CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_10e.2482b5d4.2c536d06_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"JSgzu.0.lU1.jCX8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51344 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_10e.2482b5d4.2c536d06_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Using HAARP technologies & Pyramids to clean the atmosphere from pollutants A series of haarp (High Frequency Active Aural Research Project) antennas and laser focusing rings can be placed on pyramids powered by cold fusion technologies to target pollutants in the atmosphere and on the ground and disintegrate them. All atmospheric and biological pollutants can be disintegrated by means of electrostatic, magnetic, telekinetic, and infrared energy pulses. Nuclear radiation can also be disintegrated by time accelerating haarp microwaves sweeping the ground and sky of a city on a regular basis. Haarp antennas look very much like pyramids. Pyramid could be used as a disguise for a haarp antenna. A 200 foot tall pyramid can focus an energy beam on any point in the sky, and on the ground. Tesla directed energy beams and towers created from tesla vacuum bulbs may also be used to direct a radio wave into the atmosphere to disintegrate harmful pollutants. A city may also use satellites and airships to sweep the atmosphere and ground with haarp and tesla energy beams to disintegrate pollutants, and as a backup system, cities may also use pyramids on the ground to power the city, create force fields, and to clean pollutants with energy beams directed from the pyramid. http://www.crystalinks.com/haarp.html "Weather modification is possible by, for example, altering upper atmosphere wind patterns by constructing one or more plumes of atmospheric particles which will act as a lens or focusing device. ... molecular modifications of the atmosphere can take place so that positive environmental effects can be achieved. Besides actually changing the molecular composition of an atmospheric region, a particular molecule or molecules can be chosen for increased presence. For example, ozone, nitrogen, etc. concentrations in the atmosphere could be artificially increased..." Live - HAARP CAM - Click Here Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_10e.2482b5d4.2c536d06_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Using HAARP technologies & Pyramids to clean the a= tmosphere from pollutants

A series of haarp (High Frequency Active Aural Research Project)
antennas and laser focusing rings can be placed on pyramids powered by cold=20= fusion technologies to target pollutants in the atmosphere and on the ground= and disintegrate them.  All atmospheric and biological pollutants can=20= be disintegrated by means of electrostatic, magnetic, telekinetic, and infra= red energy pulses.  Nuclear radiation can also be disintegrated by time= accelerating haarp microwaves sweeping the ground and sky of a city on a re= gular basis.  Haarp antennas look very much like pyramids.  Pyrami= d could be used as a disguise for a haarp antenna.  A 200 foot tall pyr= amid can focus an energy beam on any point in the sky, and on the ground.&nb= sp; Tesla directed energy beams and towers created from tesla vacuum bulbs m= ay also be used to direct a radio wave into the atmosphere to disintegrate h= armful pollutants.
A city may also use satellites and airships to sweep the atmosphere and grou= nd with haarp and tesla energy beams to disintegrate pollutants, and as a ba= ckup system, cities may also use pyramids on the ground to power the city, c= reate force fields, and to clean pollutants with energy beams directed from=20= the pyramid.

http://www.crystalinks.com/haarp.html

"Weather modification is possible by, for example, altering upper atmosphere= wind patterns by constructing one or more plumes of atmospheric particles w= hich will act as a lens or focusing device. ... molecular modifications of t= he atmosphere can take place so that positive environmental effects can be a= chieved. Besides actually changing the molecular composition of an atmospher= ic region, a particular molecule or molecules can be chosen for increased pr= esence. For example, ozone, nitrogen, etc. concentrations in the atmosphere=20= could be artificially increased..."



Live - HAARP CAM - Click Here



Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om













 --part1_10e.2482b5d4.2c536d06_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jul 25 22:55:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA13101; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:54:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:54:30 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <1c0.cfdd970.2c537171@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:53:53 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Using HAARP technologies & Pyramids to clean the atmosphere... To: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, wpeterson2@comcast.net, wpeterson2@attbi.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1c0.cfdd970.2c537171_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"7FOJm2.0.bC3.LUX8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51345 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1c0.cfdd970.2c537171_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to mentions that unlike Haarp technologies which use hot energy, Tesla technologies use cold electricity and cold fusion energies. Tesla technologies may be more environmentally friendly and effective than Haarp, since Tesla technologies can cleans the atmosphere and ground of all pollutants including nuclear with cold electricity and not harm the atmosphere with warm energies. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_1c0.cfdd970.2c537171_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I forgot to mentions that unlike Haarp technologies wh= ich use hot energy, Tesla technologies use cold electricity and cold fusion=20= energies.  Tesla technologies may be more environmentally friendly and=20= effective than Haarp, since Tesla technologies can cleans the atmosphere and= ground of all pollutants including nuclear with cold electricity and not ha= rm the atmosphere with warm energies. 

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om




 --part1_1c0.cfdd970.2c537171_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 26 00:24:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA05992; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:24:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:24:02 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030726082356.0068abbc@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 08:23:56 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ICE Resent-Message-ID: <"dAK9l1.0.WT1.HoY8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51346 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:09 am 25-07-03 -0700, you wrote: >Terry Blanton writes: > >Subject: ICE > > >> Why does ice float on water? Won't most solids sink when placed in a >> liquid of the same material? >> >> Inquiring minds want to know. > >Ah...did one of your children ambush you with a "summer science's" question? > >Here is the answer (that almost no one without a photographic memory can remember precisely). > >When a water molecule freezes, it becomes a fully hydrogen-bonded structure with strong and straight hydrogen bonds (such as hexagonal ice) then it can only have four nearest neighbors, due to the angles of its near tetrahedral molecular hydrogen sites. > >In the liquid phase, molecules approach more closely due to the partial collapse of the tightly hydrogen bonded network. Closer neighbors mean higher density. As the temperature of liquid water increases, the continuing collapse of the hydrogen bonded network allows unbonded molecules to approach more closely so increasing the number of nearest neighbors. > >The maximum density of water is a most curious feature, as it occurs at 4 degrees C. Regular ice is lower density but there are many varieties of ice (yes the IS an Ice-9) where the density is higher than liquid water and these ices would not float. Ice-9 , BTW, is 16 percent denser than water. Vonnegut was a little more thorough than you thought....right? > >This behavior is in contrast to normal liquids where the increasing kinetic energy of molecules and space available due to expansion, as the temperature is raised, means that it becomes less likely that molecules will be found closer to each other and the density always decreases with increasing temperature. > >From Martin Chaplin's website (the best place on the web to learn about water): >http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/index.html > >Jones Interestingly enough water is not the only substance which expands on freezing. Bismuth also expands on solidification. Does anyone know of any other substances which do this? Like Ice/Water, bismuth is also unusual in other respects. It is the most diamagnetic of all metals, and the thermal conductivity is lower than any metal, except mercury. It has a high electrical resistance, and has the highest Hall effect of any metal (that is, the greatest increase in electrical resistance when placed in a magnetic field). Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 26 07:12:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA09496; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:11:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:11:13 -0700 Message-ID: <001701c3537f$4de65ac0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20030726082356.0068abbc@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: ICE Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:07:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA09470 Resent-Message-ID: <"wkxo62.0.IK2.1me8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51347 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Interestingly enough water is not the only substance > which expands on freezing. Bismuth also expands on > solidification. Does anyone know of any other > substances which do this? Apparently there are only three, and antimony (Sb) is the third. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 26 12:26:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA10293; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:24:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:24:58 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:27:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Jones Beene cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Rubber and other Elastomers ... ICE In-Reply-To: <001701c3537f$4de65ac0$0a016ea8@cpq> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZE7kv.0.gW2.9Mj8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51348 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rubber and other Elastomers expand on cooling and shrink on heating I am sure there are a host of others. Applied materials sciences is an expanding field. JH On Sat, 26 Jul 2003, Jones Beene wrote: > > Interestingly enough water is not the only substance > > which expands on freezing. Bismuth also expands on > > solidification. Does anyone know of any other > > substances which do this? > > Apparently there are only three, and antimony (Sb) is the third. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 26 13:47:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA09988; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:46:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:46:50 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:49:06 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: conextom@aol.com cc: Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, wpeterson2@comcast.net, wpeterson2@attbi.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, tom@rhfweb.com Subject: Cold VS Hot In-Reply-To: <1c0.cfdd970.2c537171@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2SPRU.0.-R2.vYk8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51349 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Tom, Please let us know the differences between Hot energy As Opposed to Cold Energy You use some terms in the text below. Will you please define these terms and let us know the references we may use that will permit us to learn about these "different energies". I will abstract the terms in question from the text below: 1] Tesla technologies 2] cold electricity 3] cold fusion energies. How do "Tesla technologies": 4] Clean the atmosphere 5] Clean the ground a] of all pollutants b] nuclear pollutants 6] with cold electricity 7] What are "warm energies" Pointing us to a URL with these claims would be only part of the answer set. The other part will be the defined terms. Thanks, On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 conextom@aol.com wrote: > I forgot to mentions that unlike Haarp technologies which use hot energy, > Tesla technologies use cold electricity and cold fusion energies. Tesla > technologies may be more environmentally friendly and effective than Haarp, since > Tesla technologies can cleans the atmosphere and ground of all pollutants > including nuclear with cold electricity and not harm the atmosphere with warm > energies. > > Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com > President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal > New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage > Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh > Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 26 14:00:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA17648; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:59:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:59:25 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <141.16333eda.2c544584@aol.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:58:44 EDT Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Using HAARP technologies & Pyramids to clean the atmosphere... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, prj@mail.msen.com, Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, wpeterson2@comcast.net CC: ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_141.16333eda.2c544584_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"zeMC52.0.gJ4.ikk8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51350 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_141.16333eda.2c544584_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the information on the helicopter laser technologies. I am working on placing tesla cold electricity laser vacuum bulbs in a cubical series 100 feet by 100 feet much like a cubical radar dish to be placed inside of a pyramid; and to be used to scan the local ground and airspace with cold electrical lasers to disintegrate any harmful pollutants and nuclear waste in the environment. I would need a camera in the pyramid to constantly scan the environment for pollutants and then direct the cold electrical energy beams to the polluted area to disintegrate the pollution. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_141.16333eda.2c544584_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the information on the helicopter laser tec= hnologies. I am working on placing tesla cold electricity laser vacuum bulbs= in a cubical series 100 feet by 100 feet much like a cubical radar dish to=20= be placed inside of a pyramid; and to be used to scan the local ground and a= irspace with cold electrical lasers to disintegrate any harmful pollutants a= nd nuclear waste in the environment.  I would need a camera in the pyra= mid to constantly scan the environment for pollutants and then direct the co= ld electrical energy beams to the polluted area to disintegrate the pollutio= n.


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_141.16333eda.2c544584_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jul 26 20:19:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA01487; Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:18:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:18:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3F2344B8.707@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:19:20 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: We support renewable energy but NIMBY . . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X1nq31.0.6N.1Iq8_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51351 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Kennedy doesn't want a wind farm on Nantucket Sound, where his family might see it from their elegant compound in Hyannis Port." http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/GiveMeABreak/gmab_windmills030725.html Personally, I think they resemble flowers from a distance. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 27 12:54:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA13905; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:51:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:51:45 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <146.16288dfa.2c5586ff@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:50:23 EDT Subject: Accelerating Nuclear Decay with Keely's Sympathetic Vibration Technologies To: Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, prj@mail.msen.com, Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, aelewis@provide.net, newsonline@bbc.co.uk, drboylan@sbcglobal.net, mediator@mint.ocn.ne.jp, rbutner@earthlink.net, dfz@yahoo.com, SENATOR_MCCAIN@MCCAIN.SENATE.GOV, senatorlott@lott.senate.gov, Taltarzac@aol.com, economicaffairs@parliament.uk, reader@guardian.co.uk, wpeterson2@attbi.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_146.16288dfa.2c5586ff_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"_t7xF3.0._O3.Hr29_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51352 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_146.16288dfa.2c5586ff_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Accelerating Nuclear Decay with Keely's Sympathetic Vibration Technologies According to Keely's 5th law, The Law of Transmissive Vibraic Energy, "All oscillating and vibrating coherent aggregates create, in the media in which they are immersed, outwardly propagating concentric waves of alternate condensation and rarefaction, having a period-frequency identical with the pitch of the aggregate. Page 108 Keely Universal Laws Never Before Revealed" "The "pitch of the aggregate" is relative to the frequency of the innermost atomole. This particular law, as stated above, is a close explanation of the term "eigenfrequency" used every day in physics. Every object vibrates at a given pitch. The vibrations are "waves of alternate condensation and rarefaction Pg. 108 Keely Universal Laws Never Before Revealed". "The "alternating waves of condensation and rarefaction" are the transmissive agent in any transfer of energy and a resonance must take place between one or more of the partials of the respective chords involved. It is not the chemical or electrical properties of an atom or a molecule but the wave action which constitutes the active or vital essence which causes the various actions associated with atomic and molecular process. We shall see in subsequent laws that chemicals combine or don't combine entirely dependent on the relative frequencies and harmonics (summation and difference tones) of their constituent parts. Like frequencies combine harmoniously forming stable compound, whereas unlike or discordant frequencies will combine (if at all to form unstable compounds). Pg 108 Universal Laws Never Before Revealed"" "As a reinforcement to this idea of atomics, let me quote from McGraw Hill Enc. of Sci & Tech.: "The realization that atoms are continually vibrating in motions that are nearly harmonic is essential for understanding many properties of matter, including molecular spectra, heat capacity, and heat conduction. Pg 108 Universal Laws Never Before Revealed" We only need to find the oscillating frequencies of the nuclear decay of any nuclear element to broadcast radio waves at the element equal to the frequencies of its nuclear decay to increase the rate of nuclear decay so that the elements decay in a matter of minutes into lead or gold. We also should be able to transform the radioactive alpha, gamma, and beta waves into harmless radio waves by broadcasting interferometric counter radio waves at the radioactive waves to disintegrate or transform them into harmless waves. In this sense we can broadcast radar or light waves by means of negative refraction nanotech lenses(http://www.lasysinc.com/techno.htm ) at the frequencies of subnuclear decay cycles and byproducts into the air and ground to eliminate all forms of nuclear waste in the air and on the ground, which would make nuclear wars and technologies obsolete. We only have to get the governments of Earth to legitimize the nuclear waste purification technologies publicly so that they can be used to prevent nuclear wars and disasters rather than being kept secret and used only by the criminal underworld after a nuclear war or accident for their own private interests. As long as the nuclear purification technologies are kept secret from the general public, then the general public can be threatened by obsolete nuclear technologies used by criminal underworld powers to control world politics. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_146.16288dfa.2c5586ff_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Accelerating Nuclear Decay with Keely's Sympathetic Vi= bration Technologies

According to Keely's 5th law, The Law of Transmissive Vibraic Energy,

"All oscillating and vibrating coherent aggregates create, in the media in w= hich they are immersed, outwardly propagating concentric waves of alternate=20= condensation and rarefaction, having a period-frequency identical with the p= itch of the aggregate. Page 108 Keely Universal Laws Never Before Revealed"<= BR>
"The "pitch of the aggregate" is relative to the frequency of the innermost=20= atomole.  This particular law, as stated above, is a close explanation=20= of the term "eigenfrequency" used every day in physics.  Every object v= ibrates at a given pitch.  The vibrations are "waves of alternate conde= nsation and rarefaction Pg. 108 Keely Universal Laws Never Before Revealed".=  

"The "alternating waves of condensation and rarefaction" are the transmissiv= e agent in any transfer of energy and a resonance must take place between on= e or more of the partials of the respective chords involved.  It is not= the chemical or electrical properties of an atom or a molecul= e but the wave action which constitutes the active or vital essence w= hich causes the various actions associated with atomic and molecular process= .   We shall see in subsequent laws that chemicals combine or don'= t combine entirely dependent on the relative frequencies and harmonics (summ= ation and difference tones) of their constituent parts.  Like frequenci= es combine harmoniously forming stable compound, whereas unlike or discordan= t frequencies will combine (if at all to form unstable compounds). Pg 108&nb= sp; Universal Laws Never Before Revealed""

"As a reinforcement to this idea of atomics, let me quote from McGraw Hill E= nc. of Sci & Tech.:  "The realization that atoms are continually vi= brating in motions that are nearly harmonic is essential for understanding m= any properties of matter, including molecular spectra, heat capacity, and he= at conduction. Pg 108 Universal Laws Never Before Revealed"

We only need to find the oscillating frequencies of the nuclear decay of any= nuclear element to broadcast radio waves at the element equal to the freque= ncies of its nuclear decay to increase the rate of nuclear decay so that the= elements decay in a matter of minutes into lead or gold. We also should be=20= able to transform the radioactive alpha, gamma, and beta waves into harmless= radio waves by broadcasting interferometric counter radio waves at the radi= oactive waves to disintegrate or transform them into harmless waves.  I= n this sense we can broadcast radar or light waves by means of negative refr= action nanotech lenses(http:/= /www.lasysinc.com/techno.htm ) at the frequencies of subnuclear decay cy= cles and byproducts into the air and ground to eliminate all forms of nuclea= r waste in the air and on the ground, which would make nuclear wars and t= echnologies obsolete.   We only have to get the governments of= Earth to legitimize the nuclear waste purification technologies publicly so= that they can be used to prevent nuclear wars and disasters rather than bei= ng kept secret and used only by the criminal underworld after a nuclear war=20= or accident for their own private interests.  As long as the nuclear= purification technologies are kept secret from the general public, then the= general public can be threatened by obsolete nuclear technologies used by c= riminal underworld powers to control world politics.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_146.16288dfa.2c5586ff_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jul 28 22:35:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA24293; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:33:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:33:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:33:34 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: radioneuclide remediation and cold electricity Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1152665665==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"vfR2q2.0.Sx5.4TW9_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51353 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1152665665==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Conex Tom wrote: > >We only need to find the oscillating frequencies of the nuclear >decay of any nuclear element to broadcast radio waves at the element >equal to the frequencies of its nuclear decay to increase the rate >of nuclear decay so that the elements decay in a matter of minutes >into lead or gold. We also should be able to transform the >radioactive alpha, gamma, and beta waves into harmless radio waves b Have you ever heard of the late Paul Brown's photoremediation process? http://www.nucsol.com I used to have a copy of his paper on the subject, but it was lost in a disk crash. Basically you bombard the radioneculides with the proper sized photon and within 18 months the entire sample is nonradioactive. Apparently there are technical problems to making this work. I also noticed your post on the cold electricity laser bulbs in the pyramidal rack, Tom. I have no idea what you are talking about. Please enlighten us as to where you are getting these units. When you activate this unit I will drive out to see it. --============_-1152665665==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" radioneuclide remediation and cold electricity
Conex Tom wrote:


We only need to find the oscillating frequencies of the nuclear decay of any nuclear element to broadcast radio waves at the element equal to the frequencies of its nuclear decay to increase the rate of nuclear decay so that the elements decay in a matter of minutes into lead or gold. We also should be able to transform the radioactive alpha, gamma, and beta waves into harmless radio waves b

Have you ever heard of the late Paul Brown's photoremediation process? http://www.nucsol.com I used to have a copy of his paper on the subject, but it was lost in a disk crash. Basically you bombard the radioneculides with the proper sized photon and within 18 months the entire sample is nonradioactive. Apparently there are technical problems to making this work.

I also noticed your post on the cold electricity laser bulbs in the pyramidal rack, Tom. I have no idea what you are talking about. Please enlighten us as to where you are getting these units. When you activate this unit I will drive out to see it.
--============_-1152665665==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 29 01:05:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA13833; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 01:04:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 01:04:11 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 03:04:06 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"C1oPT3.0._N3.xfY9_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51354 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: the author of this book, J Newcomb Hodges, was talking about an electrolyzer that would cause the two hydorgen to decouple from the oxygen and float away. Along with a lot of all other a lot of fringe science ideas. http://www.Tamashii.biz/intro.html The author has done technology development in various areas see http://www.Tamashii.biz/bio/bio.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 29 08:05:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA10619; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:02:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:02:56 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <171.21f06cde.2c57e679@aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:02:17 EDT Subject: Re: radioneuclide remediation and cold electricity To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Antigravity@yahoogroups.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_171.21f06cde.2c57e679_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"8Vfq92.0.qb2.Voe9_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51355 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_171.21f06cde.2c57e679_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/29/2003 1:35:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes: > I also noticed your post on the cold electricity laser bulbs in the=20 > pyramidal rack, Tom. I have no idea what you are talking about. Please enl= ighten us=20 > as to where you are getting these units. When you activate this unit I wil= l=20 > drive out to see it. >=20 Thank you for the information on Paul Brown's photoremediation process. The= =20 cold electricity laser bulbs that I am referring to are Tesla vacuum bulbs=20 which where described in the book called Occult Ether Physics book by Willia= m=20 Lyne. I needed to develop a subatomic energy beam which can carry subatomic= =20 radio waves or photons to the nuclear element particles to transform them i= nto=20 lead without damaging the environment. Cold electricity scalar waves or sta= tic=20 electricity placed into a beam by means of vacuum and negative refraction=20 technologies, may carry subatomic radio waves and photons to a distant site=20 without harming the environment and pass through most substances, since the=20= beam is=20 not magnetic and not hot. Here below are quotes which describe how Tesla ma= de=20 vacuum bulbs to generate scalar cold energy waves to carry radio waves to a=20 distant place to change the atmosphere: Here is a quote from the book Occult Ether Physics on pg 25, "The Tesla ion bulb, fundamental to Tesla's beams, is a solid aluminum=20 hemisphere, enclosed in a glass vacuum envelope, excited by a high voltage D= .C.=20 applied to the center of the hemispherical end. A polarized beam is emitted=20= normal=20 to the flat face center.=A0 The frequency is determined by voltage.=A0 The i= on=20 beam polarizes, concentrates, and guides a spherical, long wave front, ampli= fied=20 by Tesla's "extra coil", to a distant target, which amplifies a higher=20 frequency wave front, superimposed upon it, which will "ring", in the target= area at=20 one-quarter wavelength, in fact ring many times.=20 Outside the bulb, in close proximity to the beam, the high voltage=20 alternating current ("power wave:) of the low frequency, is emitted by a rin= g-shaped=20 electrode, and is directed along the beam's atmospherically created conducti= ve=20 path, and is projected toward the distant target where the one-quarter wave=20= peak=20 delivers it ant its "point" of greatest potential.=A0 This idea of Tesla's m= ay=20 have been stimulated by Maxwell's concept that conductivity actually occurs=20= in=20 the dialectics surrounding a conductor, with the conductor serving the only=20 to guide to the current. " Then their is a New York Times=A0 patent picture in the book on page 26, whi= ch=20 shows bulbs connected to Tesla coils, and beams emanating from the bulbs, an= d=20 the picture subtitles states: "This illustration, from a July 11, 1934 New York Times article, shows=20 several of the special solid aluminum Tesla bulbs, which, as Tesla stated in= 1940,=20 see page 27 no longer required vacuum. The current is placed on the beams by= =20 means of the ring-shaped electrodes near each bulb, fed with currents from t= he=20 coils" Then page 27 states, "Tesla's Teleforce discoveries evolved between 1900 and 1940, consisted of a= =20 "new" way to produce rays in free air without a vacuum, a "new way to create= a=20 " very great electrical force", a new way of magnifying the force, and a new= =20 means of electro-propulsion (William L. Laurence, New York Times, Sept 22,=20 1940, 11, p.7).=20 But the book does not say any more on how the bulbs worked in a patent, so I= =20 cannot tell if they rotated or not.=A0 There are tubes of force or ether tub= es=20 or rotating vortex tubes of electron like energy which rotate through the=20 bulbs.=A0=20 The book also has a picture on pg 23, where the Tesla bulbs are used in a=20 space craft to propel it by means of stretched and compressed ether before a= nd=20 after the ships front and back ends and by means of rarefaction and compress= ion=20 of the ether above and below the ship.=A0 The tesla bulbs are polarized Tube= s of=20 Force- space rendered conductive, and placed in pairs at the top of the ship= =20 to create rarefaction or buoyancy while the natural ether is pulled into the= =20 ship from the front to the back by means of D.C. potential in the front of t= he=20 ship - Carriers exchange in Brush (negative corona) Tubes of Force center=20 conductors which are attached firmly to ships structure, and in the back and= at=20 the bottom of the ship are placed A.C. potential- Carriers compressed - Tube= s of=20 force exit blocked. The ether tubes of force are dissolved in the middle of=20 the ship to impart a momentum of 10^40 x fg.=A0 A Low Frequency HV DC power=20 source is placed in the front of the ship and a Hi Frequency/HV AC energy so= urce is=20 placed in the back of the ship to pull the ether through the ship which=20 itself is sealed in a vacuum.=20 The Occult Ether Physics book by William Lyne,=A0 has many more details, you= =20 may want to buy a copy from Amazon. com Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om --part1_171.21f06cde.2c57e679_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/29/2003 1:35:48 AM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes:

I also noticed your post on the= cold electricity laser bulbs in the pyramidal rack, Tom. I have no idea wha= t you are talking about. Please enlighten us as to where you are getting the= se units. When you activate this unit I will drive out to see it.


Thank you for the information on Paul Brown's photoremediation process. = ; The cold electricity laser bulbs that I am referring to are Tesla vacuum b= ulbs which where described in the book called Occult Ether Physics book by W= illiam Lyne.  I needed to develop a subatomic energy beam which can car= ry subatomic radio waves or  photons to the nuclear element particles t= o transform them into lead without damaging the environment.  Cold elec= tricity scalar waves or static electricity placed into a beam by means of va= cuum and negative refraction technologies, may carry subatomic radio waves a= nd photons to a distant site without harming the environment and pass throug= h most substances, since the beam is not magnetic and not hot.  Here be= low are quotes which describe how Tesla made vacuum bulbs to generate scalar= cold energy waves to carry radio waves to a distant place to change the atm= osphere:

Here is a quote from the book Occult Ether Physics on pg 25,

"The Tesla ion bulb, fundamental to Tesla's beams, is a solid aluminum hemis= phere, enclosed in a glass vacuum envelope, excited by a high voltage D.C. a= pplied to the center of the hemispherical end. A polarized beam is emitted n= ormal to the flat face center.=A0 The frequency is determined by voltage.= =A0 The ion beam polarizes, concentrates, and guides a spherical, long wave=20= front, amplified by Tesla's "extra coil", to a distant target, which amplifi= es a higher frequency wave front, superimposed upon it, which will "ring", i= n the target area at one-quarter wavelength, in fact ring many times.

Outside the bulb, in close proximity to the beam, the high voltage alternati= ng current ("power wave:) of the low frequency, is emitted by a ring-shaped=20= electrode, and is directed along the beam's atmospherically created conducti= ve path, and is projected toward the distant target where the one-quarter wa= ve peak delivers it ant its "point" of greatest potential.=A0 This idea of T= esla's may have been stimulated by Maxwell's concept that conductivity actua= lly occurs in the dialectics surrounding a conductor, with the conductor ser= ving the only to guide to the current. "

Then their is a New York Times=A0 patent picture in the book on page 26, whi= ch shows bulbs connected to Tesla coils, and beams emanating from the bulbs,= and the picture subtitles states:

"This illustration, from a July 11, 1934 New York Times article, shows sever= al of the special solid aluminum Tesla bulbs, which, as Tesla stated in 1940= , see page 27 no longer required vacuum. The current is placed on the beams=20= by means of the ring-shaped electrodes near each bulb, fed with currents fro= m the coils"

Then page 27 states,

"Tesla's Teleforce discoveries evolved between 1900 and 1940, consisted of a= "new" way to produce rays in free air without a vacuum, a "new way to creat= e a " very great electrical force", a new way of magnifying the force, and a= new means of electro-propulsion (William L. Laurence, New York Times, Sept=20= 22, 1940, 11, p.7).

But the book does not say any more on how the bulbs worked in a patent, so I= cannot tell if they rotated or not.=A0 There are tubes of force or ether tu= bes or rotating vortex tubes of electron like energy which rotate through th= e bulbs.=A0

The book also has a picture on pg 23, where the Tesla bulbs are used in a sp= ace craft to propel it by means of stretched and compressed ether before and= after the ships front and back ends and by means of rarefaction and compres= sion of the ether above and below the ship.=A0 The tesla bulbs are polarized= Tubes of Force- space rendered conductive, and placed in pairs at the top o= f the ship to create rarefaction or buoyancy while the natural ether is pull= ed into the ship from the front to the back by means of D.C. potential in th= e front of the ship - Carriers exchange in Brush (negative corona) Tubes of=20= Force center conductors which are attached firmly to ships structure, and in= the back and at the bottom of the ship are placed A.C. potential- Carriers=20= compressed - Tubes of force exit blocked. The ether tubes of force are disso= lved in the middle of the ship to impart a momentum of 10^40 x fg.=A0 A Low=20= Frequency HV DC power source is placed in the front of the ship and a Hi Fre= quency/HV AC energy source is placed in the back of the ship to pull the eth= er through the ship which itself is sealed in a vacuum.

The Occult Ether Physics book by William Lyne,=A0 has many more details, you= may want to buy a copy from Amazon. com


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_171.21f06cde.2c57e679_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 29 08:24:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA22057; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:23:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:23:21 -0700 Message-ID: <20030729152317.79385.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: ICE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3F21333D.1080505@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"4S3OF.0.WO5.f5f9_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51356 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: well, since i know im a few days behind on email, this has probably already been answered, but i dont see a reply (my email box filled) water freezes into an unusual crystaline shape. the hydrogens point towards each other, the oxygen on the outside, with a space in the middle. 8 h2o molecules per cyrstal. this causes the density of ice to be lower than water, becuase it doesnt stack as well , causeing that space in the middle. this is why it floats. there ARE some other compounds (and an element or two, i think) that also float in a liquid of themselves. but its not common. --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Why does ice float on water? Won't most solids sink > when placed in a > liquid of the same material? > > Inquiring minds want to know. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 29 09:14:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA18730; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:11:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:11:06 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:10:27 EDT Subject: Re: radioneuclide remediation and cold electricity To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, prj@mail.msen.com, Antigravity@yahoogroups.com CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_bc.3b91be15.2c57f673_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"EawjP2.0.Xa4.Qof9_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_bc.3b91be15.2c57f673_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 7/29/2003 1:35:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes: > Have you ever heard of the late Paul Brown's photoremediation process?=20 > http://www.nucsol.com I used to have a copy of his paper on the subject, b= ut it=20 > was lost in a disk crash. I found a link to his works, which describe not only a photoremediaiton=20 process but a patented nuclear battery which can be used in cars as follows,= posted=20 at the link http:/= /www.rexresearch.com/nucell/nucell.htm=20 > US Patent # # 4,835,433= > The entire process is the reverse of a particle accelerator. In a particle= =20 > accelerator, a great deal of energy is pumped into a slow moving charge to= =20 > accelerate it to high velocities and a portion of this energy goes to incr= ease=20 > the magnetic field strength. However, our device is a particle decelerator= ,=20 > utilizing high speed particles emitted from natural radioactive decay whic= h we=20 > bring to a stop, releasing the stored energy. With this in mind, the Nucle= ar=20 > Powered Oscillator is more precisely an oscillating particle decelerator.=20 www.nuclearsolu= tions.com=20 Company Literature: Peripheral Systems=20 (1980s) > A radioisotope electric power system developed by inventor Paul Brown is a= =20 > scientific breakthrough in nuclear power. The battery utilizes the energy=20 > given off by decaying radioactive material, converting it directly into a=20 > continuous AC electrical current. Unlike conventional nuclear generating d= evices,=20 > the power cell does not rely on a nuclear reaction or chemical process and= =20 > does not produce radioactive waste products. Brown's first prototype power= cell=20 > produced 100,000 times as much energy per gram of strontium-90 (the energy= =20 > source) than the most powerful thermal nuclear battery yet in existence. T= he=20 > Nucell battery yielded 7500 watts per gram of strontium-90. Compare this t= o an=20 > advanced device recently developed by the US Dept. of Energy Byproducts=20 > Utilization Program. Their state-of-the-art thermal nuclear battery produc= ed 0.063=20 > watts per gram of strontium-90=E2=80=A6 The key to the Nucell battery is B= rown's=20 > discovery of a method to harness the magnetic energy given off by the alph= a and=20 > beta particles inherent in nuclear material. Alpha and beta particles are=20 > produced by the radioactive decay of certain naturally occurring and man-m= ade=20 > nuclear material (radionuclides). The electric charges of the alpha and be= ta=20 > particles have been captured and converted to electricity for existing nuc= lear=20 > batteries, but the amount of power generated from such batteries has been=20 > very small. Alpha and beta particles also possess kinetic energy by succes= sive=20 > collisions of the particles with air molecules or other molecules. The bul= k of=20 > the R&D of nuclear batteries in the past has been concerned with this heat= =20 > energy which is readily observable and measurable. The magnetic energy giv= en=20 > off by alpha and beta particles is several orders of magnitude greater tha= n=20 > either the kinetic energy or the direct electric energy produced by these=20= same=20 > particles. However, the myriads of tiny magnetic fields existing at any ti= e=20 > cannot be individually recognized or measured. This energy is not captured= =20 > locally in nature to produce heat or mechanical effects, but instead the e= nergy=20 > escapes undetected.=C2=A0 Brown has invented a way to "organize" these mag= netic=20 > fields so the great amounts of otherwise unobservable energy could be=20 > harnessed. The weight of the strontium-90 used to generate 75 watts of pow= er in the=20 > Nucell prototype is approximately the same as the weight of 2 millimeters=20= of=20 > wire cut off the end of a small paper clip. Projected sizes of the Nucell=20 > battery will range from the size of a soup can to the size of a small barr= el or=20 > waste can for a 50 kilowatt model. The alpha and beta particles utilized i= n the=20 > Nucell battery have a limited ability to penetrate matter; alpha particles= =20 > can be contained by a piece of paper; beta particles require 0.03" of=20 > aluminum. The Nucell battery is housed in a stainless steel, high-vacuum c= ontainer,=20 > making it a safe, impermeable source of power.=20 Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om --part1_bc.3b91be15.2c57f673_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 7/29/2003 1:35:48 AM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes:

Have you ever heard of the late= Paul Brown's photoremediation process? http://www.nucsol.com I used to have= a copy of his paper on the subject, but it was lost in a disk crash.

I found a link to his works, which describe not only a photoremediaiton proc= ess but a patented nuclear battery which can be used in cars as follows, pos= ted at the  link http://www.rexresearch.com/nucell/nucell.htm
US Patent # # 4,835,433


The entire process is the reverse of a particle accel= erator. In a particle accelerator, a great deal of energy is pumped into a s= low moving charge to accelerate it to high velocities and a portion of this=20= energy goes to increase the magnetic field strength. However, our device is=20= a particle decelerator, utilizing high speed particles emitted from natural=20= radioactive decay which we bring to a stop, releasing the stored energy. Wit= h this in mind, the Nuclear Powered Oscillator is more precisely an oscillat= ing particle decelerator.


www.nuclearsolutions.com

Company Literature:= Peripheral Systems
(1980s)

A radioisotope electric power system developed by inv= entor Paul Brown is a scientific breakthrough in nuclear power. The battery=20= utilizes the energy given off by decaying radioactive material, converting i= t directly into a continuous AC electrical current. Unlike conventional nucl= ear generating devices, the power cell does not rely on a nuclear reaction o= r chemical process and does not produce radioactive waste products. Brown's first prototype power cell produced 100,000 time= s as much energy per gram of strontium-90 (the energy source) than the most=20= powerful thermal nuclear battery yet in existence. The Nucell battery yielde= d 7500 watts per gram of strontium-90. Compare this to an advanced device re= cently developed by the US Dept. of Energy Byproducts Utilization Program. T= heir state-of-the-art thermal nuclear battery produced 0.063 watts per gram=20= of strontium-90=E2=80=A6 The key to the Nucell bat= tery is Brown's discovery of a method to harness the magnetic energy given o= ff by the alpha and beta particles inherent in nuclear material. Alpha and b= eta particles are produced by the radioactive decay of certain naturally occ= urring and man-made nuclear material (radionuclides). The electric charges of the alpha and beta particles have been captur= ed and converted to electricity for existing nuclear batteries, but the amou= nt of power generated from such batteries has been very small. Alpha and bet= a particles also possess kinetic energy by successive collisions of the part= icles with air molecules or other molecules. The bulk of the R&D of nucl= ear batteries in the past has been concerned with this heat energy which is=20= readily observable and measurable. The magnetic e= nergy given off by alpha and beta particles is several orders of magnitude g= reater than either the kinetic energy or the direct electric energy produced= by these same particles. However, the myriads of tiny magnetic fields exist= ing at any tie cannot be individually recognized or measured. This energy is= not captured locally in nature to produce heat or mechanical effects, but i= nstead the energy escapes undetected.=C2=A0 Brown has invented a way to "org= anize" these magnetic fields so the great amounts of otherwise unobservable=20= energy could be harnessed. <= /FONT>The weight of the stron= tium-90 used to generate 75 watts of power in the Nucell prototype is approx= imately the same as the weight of 2 millimeters of wire cut off the end of a= small paper clip. Projected sizes of the Nucell battery will range from the= size of a soup can to the size of a small barrel or waste can for a 50 kilo= watt model. The alpha and beta particles utilized=20= in the Nucell battery have a limited ability to penetrate matter; alpha part= icles can be contained by a piece of paper; beta particles require 0.03" of=20= aluminum. The Nucell battery is housed in a stainless steel, high-vacuum con= tainer, making it a safe, impermeable source of power.


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

















 --part1_bc.3b91be15.2c57f673_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jul 29 15:43:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA24425; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:40:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:40:30 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <39.3bf8d334.2c5851ac@aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:39:40 EDT Subject: Re: A primer for tommorrow's technology To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Antigravity@yahoogroups.com, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, aelewis@provide.net, newsonline@bbc.co.uk, drboylan@sbcglobal.net, mediator@mint.ocn.ne.jp, rbutner@earthlink.net, dfz@yahoo.com, SENATOR_MCCAIN@MCCAIN.SENATE.GOV, senatorlott@lott.senate.gov, Taltarzac@aol.com, economicaffairs@parliament.uk, reader@guardian.co.uk, wpeterson2@attbi.com, wpeterson2@comcast.net CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_39.3bf8d334.2c5851ac_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jq0-D2.0.Qz5.TVl9_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_39.3bf8d334.2c5851ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/29/2003 4:05:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes: > http://www.Tamashii.biz/intro.html The author has done > technology development in various areas see > http://www.Tamashii.biz/bio/bio.html > Thank you for the reference to the above web site which outlines critical technologies that need to be discovered soon for the modern age to progress quickly enough to handle worldwide needs as quoted below: "http://www.tamashii.biz/chapter_one.HTM Below is the New Technology Pyramid, based on probable advancements in Technology in the next 100 years. This graphic displays the shadows of the future, only if a significant breakthrough and acceptance in Particle-Level frequency replication (~100 EHz Signal Generator) can be established, pushing us above the Silicon Plateau.... We have reached the limits of improving Chemical energy and the strengths of mass produced Structural materials. And Mechanical Engineering will not exhibit any big breakthroughs without new materials to work with. Computer technology will only be as effective as the processing speed and power of the silicon environment it resides within. Only biotechnology, nanotechnology and electronic/photonic devices will continue to display growth. By maintaining our present technological stagnation, we will NOT colonize space, we will NOT defeat human ailments, and the shortage of key mineral, water and energy resources will persist, as well as, the global struggle to control these strategic commodities will continue the justification for more wars in the future. Humanity needs a paradigm change. We need something radically new...we need a Quantum Leap..." And J Newcomb Hodges states that even if we get the critical technologies developed such as faster Eherz cosmic subnuclear level energy processors, we still need to promote a product such as an antigravity device that uses such processors, so that it will not harm the markets of other products, and will be accepted gradually into the market place; and he suggests promoting antigravity toys instead of antigravity cars for instance, since toys will not harm the market place for cars. The faster processors which use fiber optics, holographic memories, and nanotech vacuum and negative refraction light technologies, http://www.lasysinc.com/techno.htm, that can travel faster than light should be available by the 2020 and be a part of the mainstream market place by 2030, so that antigravity space craft that utilizes faster than light processors which manage subnuclear energies and technologies, can be developed by 2030, which could be considered a toy for the emerging space industry, since it will not affect the automobile market. Most of the world's food, water, and energy resources can be manufactured from a glass of water by using cold fusion and subnuclear energy transmutation technologies that process subnuclear energies with subnuclear processors and manipulate water or gas air to get energy, more water, and food by hydroponics from water or air by means of over or near unity water or gas air cold fusion. If the faster Eherz cosmic energy processors are developed by 2020 to 2030 which utilize cold fusion technologies, Earth should have the technologies it needs to provide all of Earth's needed resources and to begin space travel. Most of the above technologies presently exist in theory and on paper in the general public media. The classified military governmental technologies of Earth are 30 years ahead of the general public's media, so that the governments of Earth already have the above technologies, which are classified. We need to publicly fund research into the above technologies, and promote politics which makes the above technologies realizable by 2020 to 2030 for the general public and not just for a secret elite group. We will also need to make treaties with standard immigration policies and application forms with friendly Star Visitor and extraterrestrial societies, to allow us to travel between planets safely in order to use antigravity technologies on Earth. Advanced extraterrestrial societies may require that just constitutional legal systems, and peaceful societies exist for them to publicly announce treaties made with Earth citizens; and until then private companies on Earth can make nonpublic and nondisclosed agreements with extraterrestrial societies by United Nations Charters that give rights to space travel to all, to provide immigration treaties, and space travel, rights to private clients. It is simply up to the receiving planet or star system to decide who to make treaties with, and who to allow to travel to their planet and star system on Earth, so that governments and secret organizations on Earth should not be able to legally prevent companies and citizens from making private agreements with extraterrestrial societies that welcome them. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_39.3bf8d334.2c5851ac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/29/2003 4:05:27 AM Eastern Daylig= ht Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes:

http://www.Tamashii.biz/intro.h= tml The author has done
technology development in various areas see
http://www.Tamashii.biz/bio/bio.html


Thank you for the reference to the above web site which outlines
critical technologies that need to be discovered soon for the modern
age to progress quickly enough to handle worldwide needs as
quoted below:

"http://www.tamashii.biz= /chapter_one.HTM

Below is the New Technology Pyramid, based on probable advancements
in Technology in the next 100 years. This graphic displays the shadows of the future, only if a significant breakthrough and acceptance in Particle-Le= vel
frequency replication (~100 EHz Signal Generator) can be established, pushin= g
us above the Silicon Plateau....

We have reached the limits of improving Chemical energy and the strengths of mass produced Structural materials. And Mechanical Engineering will not <= BR> exhibit any big breakthroughs without new materials to work with. Computer <= BR> technology will only be as effective as the processing speed and power of th= e
silicon environment it resides within. Only biotechnology, nanotechnology an= d
electronic/photonic devices will continue to display growth. By maintaining=20= our
present technological stagnation, we will NOT colonize space, we will NOT defeat human ailments, and the shortage of key mineral, water and energy resources will persist, as well as, the global struggle to control these str= ategic
commodities will continue the justification for more wars in the future. Hum= anity
needs a paradigm change.

We need something radically new...we need a Quantum Leap..."

And J Newcomb Hodges states that even if we get the critical technologies developed such as faster Eherz cosmic subnuclear level energy processors, we= still
need to promote a product such as an antigravity device that uses such proce= ssors,
so that it will not harm the markets of other products, and will be accepted= gradually
into the market place; and he suggests promoting antigravity toys instead of= antigravity cars for instance, since toys will not harm the market place fo= r cars.    The faster processors which use fiber optics, holo= graphic memories, and nanotech vacuum and negative refraction light technolo= gies, http://www.lasysinc.com= /techno.htm, that can travel faster than light should be available by th= e 2020 and be a part of the mainstream market place by 2030, so that antigra= vity space craft that utilizes faster than light processors which manage sub= nuclear energies and technologies, can be developed by 2030, which could be=20= considered a toy for the emerging space industry, since it will not affect t= he automobile market.

Most of the world's food, water, and energy resources can be manufactured fr= om
a glass of water by using cold fusion and subnuclear energy transmutation te= chnologies that process subnuclear energies with subnuclear processors and m= anipulate water or gas air to get energy, more water, and food by hydroponic= s from water or air by means of over or near unity water or gas air cold fus= ion.  If the faster Eherz cosmic energy processors are developed by 202= 0 to 2030 which utilize cold fusion technologies, Earth should have the tech= nologies it needs to provide all of Earth's needed resources and to begin sp= ace travel.

Most of the above technologies presently exist in theory and on paper in the= general public media. The classified military governmental technologies of=20= Earth are 30 years ahead of the general public's media, so that the governme= nts of Earth already have the above technologies, which are  classified= .  We need to publicly fund research into the above technologies, and p= romote politics which makes the above technologies realizable by 2020 to 203= 0 for the general public and not just for a secret elite group.  We wil= l also need to make treaties with standard  immigration policies and ap= plication forms with friendly Star Visitor and extraterrestrial societies, t= o allow us to travel between planets safely in order to use antigravity tech= nologies on Earth. 

Advanced extraterrestrial societies may require that just constitutional leg= al systems, and peaceful societies exist for them to publicly announce treat= ies made with Earth citizens; and until then private companies on Earth can=20= make nonpublic and nondisclosed agreements with extraterrestrial societies b= y United Nations Charters that give rights to space travel to all, to provid= e immigration treaties, and space travel, rights to private clients.  I= t is simply up to the receiving planet or star system to decide who to make=20= treaties with, and who to allow to travel to their planet and star system on= Earth, so that governments and secret organizations on Earth should not be=20= able to legally prevent companies and citizens from making private agreement= s with extraterrestrial societies that welcome them.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om











 --part1_39.3bf8d334.2c5851ac_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 30 09:29:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA15780; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:26:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:26:36 -0700 Message-ID: <002401c356ae$d66753e0$f300bf3f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re; Physics Demos, University of California Riverside Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:25:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94089ba92e59de5ba78f49ee57a186a1cc3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"_UM0D.0.Ss3.x6_9_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some really fun physics demos. http://phyld.ucr.edu/default.htm http://phyld.ucr.edu/Electricity%20&%20Magnetism%203/electricity_and_magnetism__iii.ht m This one using a cow magnet is intriguing. http://phyld.ucr.edu/Electricity%20&%20Magnetism%203/E-163KA.htm Drop the iron down the copper pipe and it falls at a normal rate. Drop the cow magnet down the copper pipe and it falls very slowly. http://phyld.ucr.edu/Electricity%20&%20Magnetism%203/E-163M.htm This demonstration should be shown after the demonstration with various core samples in cores so students understand that adding iron to the core of a coil increases coupling and inductance. Set out as shown and connect the 1000 turn coil to the galvanometer. Connect the dry cell, switch, and toroid in series. Closing the switch shows a minute deflection of the galvanometer needle. Add the iron core and the deflection is still minute. Wind the separate lead several turns through the toroid hole. Disconnect the 1000 turn coil from the galvanometer, and connect the ends of the separate lead. Now closing the switch shows a substantial deflection. This shows that the magnetic lines of force exist within a toroid solenoid; there is no external field. I want to see Horace's reaction to my (intuitive) claim that the electrostatic and magnetic forces between two pulsed toroids (Rowland's Rings) varies as 1/d^2. Fes = 9.0e9*q^2/d^2 Fmag = 1.0e-7*M^2/d^2 IOW, they act like monopoles, and mimic the gravity field. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 30 13:04:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA16253; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:02:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:02:45 -0700 Message-ID: <007501c356d5$087df0c0$0a016ea8@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Finding Forster.... Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:59:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA16215 Resent-Message-ID: <"2akxD1.0.sz3.bH2A_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A recent post on the hydrino forum has jogged the memory and imagination a little, and the emerging details have relevance to the prospects for explaining various incarnations of "water-fuel," such as whether OU can be found in the form of cavitation effects - or in the form of a water-powered ICE (internal combustion engine) for which the anecdotal evidence is mounting .... Fluorescence, and its energy transfer mechanisms, is a curious subject that has a number of "free energy" connotations, including relevance to the Mills' hydrino (as an alternative explanatory mechanism) and of course, much relevance to sonoluminescence (which is technically not OU but an anomaly nevertheless). A kind of fluorescence may also be an operative factor in the Mizuno/Naudin experiment, at least from outward appearances. At the macromolecular level, fluorescence is the result of a low energy EM excitation of a donor structure that is transferred to an acceptor structure (monoenergetic photon emitter), which might exist on the same large molecular chain, but the energy is transferred in a fashion which "seems" lossless, or even with energy gain. One of the most important mechanisms for this transfer in polymeric systems is nonradiative singlet energy transfer, mediated by an electron- but this process might be applicable to networks of hydrogen bonds in a certain dimensional range, such as those that exist in water. These water clusters appear polymeric, even though the bonding is not covalent. Nonradiative energy transfer of this type is sometimes called "Forster transfer," in honor of the German physicist who described the basic mechanism over 50 years ago. Forster (with an umlaut over the o) used quantum mechanics to describe energy transfer in terms of a resonant dipole-dipole interaction. A critical parameter is the "Forster radius" a distance that exists only in the nanometer range. Since transfer efficiency E depends on the 6th power of the separation distance 2r, E quickly decreases with an increase of r, however E surprisingly disappears altogether below 1 nm of radius (2 nm of diameter). Very strange...and very revealing...kind of a reverse-Maxwellian distribution. Exactly what would be expected of some kind of ZPE coherence.... The best fluorescence performance is found in structures at 2-10 nm which includes many crystals, some plasma inter-ionic distances, and of course, molecular diameters of certain macromolecules such as polymers, AND also the 280 molecule water icsoahedron, with its diameter of 3 nm. This cluster can be seen at: http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html The monoenergetic photon energy which is ultimately released however, is always of far longer wavelength than the Forster radius, but is almost never thermal. It is typically in the visible to UV range. These are very important clues as to the origin of the energy, whether it be free energy or not. It must be related to a macro-molecular phenomenon that is not exactly chemical - one could call it quasi-chemical because it does depend upon an electron, but just not any electron, especially not one which is precisely associated with the reactants!!! The electron must have an effective wavelength within the Forster radius, about 50 times larger than that of those valence electrons associated with typical chemical reactions. Premise: The Forster radius is another way of looking at the geometry of the *beta-aether interaction zone.* The curious (and complicating) fact is how the aqueous electron, with little energy to spare, could "bootstrap" itself and eventually relate to higher levels of OU than fluorescence. It is becoming clearer that this must be a two-step process which happens by way of a bound-proton interaction, such as by way of a below-ground-state hydrogen, aka the hydrino, or alternatively by way of a bound proton in the AEH of Horace Heffner. IF water-fuel, as reported in the experimental or anecdotal literature is a real OU phenomenon, and IF (two big IFs) the hydrino is one of the operative mechanisms in water-fuel overunity, then it is probable that the aqueous electron is the proximate catalyst for dropping the proton below ground state, and NOT any of the so-called Mills' catalysts. Moreover, it is also probable that the hydrino can operate in a regime where it does not continue to shrink - but instead oscillates between a first and secondary ground state. As such, the hydrino would operate as a ZPE "pump" and not as a one-time shrinkage phenomenon. It would cohere the energy of the vacuum (which can be said to "always exist" below ground state). According to statistical physics, the average de Broglie wavelength of free or aqueous electrons at thermal equilibrium is about 6 nm. The average diameter of the water icosahedron is about 3 nm. This coincidence is quite fortuitous, because water will then act like a half-wavelength antenna for free electrons and capture them from any number of sources. In a number of situations, we know that half or quarter wavelength antennae are more effective at capture than exact wavelength. Once an aqueous electron is captured around a water icosahedron, any one of the 560 protons within that structure are candidates for shrinkage below ground state (or alternatively, "atomic expansion" if the AEH describes the situation better). At any rate, free energy is "pumped" - that is, naturally cohered from ZPE by means of that bound, bare proton in the form of quanta of 3.4 eV or 6.8 eV- which quanta always seem to be associated with bare proton instability. I would hedge on whether the excess energy is really photonic (Mills say it is multiples of photons of 27.2 eV but he can't ever seem to find very many). There is a possibility that the energy quanta (which is essentially "free") might instead be leptonic first and photonic second - as in a previously undescribed light lepton pair that function as gluon-like mediators between nucleus and electron. I think Fred Sparber might vote for two pairs (of + and - paired-leptons) of 3.4 eV (13.6 eV total energy) which MUST come into existence *before* ANY proton can succeed in capturing an electron. If the lepton pairs do not succeed in their mediation task, that is to say- if the proton can't capture an electron when they pop into view, then they annihilate into photons of the combined energy. At least that's the way it looks this week... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 30 16:18:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA23297; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:17:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:17:12 -0700 From: ConexTom@aol.com Message-ID: <7d.3b812246.2c59ab7c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:15:08 EDT Subject: The Utopian future of Earth soon to come To: aelewis@provide.net, prj@mail.msen.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, newsonline@bbc.co.uk, drboylan@sbcglobal.net, gandalph_the_white_2003@yahoo.com, mediator@mint.ocn.ne.jp, dfz@yahoo.com, SENATOR_MCCAIN@MCCAIN.SENATE.GOV, senatorlott@lott.senate.gov, sepp@lastrega.com, Taltarzac@aol.com, TomSSchulte@t-online.de, economicaffairs@parliament.uk, reader@guardian.co.uk, vortex-l@eskimo.com, wpeterson2@attbi.com, wpeterson2@comcast.net CC: tom@rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7d.3b812246.2c59ab7c_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011 Resent-Message-ID: <"N52E51.0.xh5.t75A_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_7d.3b812246.2c59ab7c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Utopian future of Earth soon to come The culture that I grew up in Michigan, and many other cultures in the United States, would and can presently engineer a Utopian future for the USA and Earth. With cold fusion energy and energy transmutation technologies, which are presently available but not common public knowledge, the Utopian culture that I grew up in which is similar to Star Trek, would and could provide the basic needs of life such as food, clothing, shelter, privacy, and health for all citizens under a constitutionally just and peaceful government. This form of Utopian society is not communistic nor socialistic, since it encourages free enterprise to allow citizens to run businesses and earn extra income beyond the basic needs of life, and citizens have their freedoms to choose their occupation, since the central government does not dictate to others what their occupation will be nor control their basic business enterprises. The USA presently has the technologies to engineer a society as proposed above within 50 years time, which would have been the normal historical course of the USA, had the USA not been secretly taken over by secret communistic underworld powers. The USA only has to change a few public governmental policies to improve security in the USA, in the next 10 years to be able engineer a Utopian society as stated above. The USA must be more honest publicly about the secret threats to the USA such as immigration, secret underground inner Earth societies, and extraterrestrials. The USA must place publicly viewable surveillance system's at all borders, in the sky's, and under the grounds of the USA, to publicly monitor all threats and illegal immigration to the USA. The surveillance systems must be able to detect and neutralize all harmful biological, chemical, and nuclear agents in the air at all times instantly. We presently have the surveillance technologies as stated above which are already set up and used by the government, but which are kept secret to be used against USA citizens for the benefit of other nation states and secret societies living in the inner Earth and underworld. The USA only has to make the above surveillance technologies and information available to the general public and to improve its legal policies to be more just, civilized and peaceable, to allow the USA to achieve a Utopian society in the next 50 years. The USA has a negative population growth so that the USA will not have problems with overpopulation for hundreds of years to come, even in a utopian society where there are no diseases due to surveillance technologies which detect harmful pollutants and purify them; and persons can live longer as a consequence. Since person's can live longer, the USA government must also develop public policies which handle extended life. New identities should be public policy and made available to all as long as the receiving town accepts the person by agreements made publicly and as a matter of record. If the time comes in a few hundred years, where overpopulation may be a problem in the USA, then persons can be offered extended lives beyond a guaranteed 100 years, by becoming military personal defending the planet, or nation for 50 years time, before they may then receive a new life and new identity. Region's can be set up where person's may live after 100 years, which may not have all of the eternal life benefits, to allow person's to live our their lives naturally, happily, and die naturally and randomly. There can also be a random process to allow a person to receive new identities and new lives, so that every person has the chance of extended life, and their potential death is unknown, natural, and randomized. Person's can be allowed to immigrate to other planets by means of space travel with standard governmental immigration policies which are public knowledge, where planets welcome them, to solve overpopulation and extended life problems. Person's can make agreements with towns before their deaths to receive a new identity if the town will receive them and could use their talents. All of the above ideas need to be made a part of the public governmental policies and records, in order to achieve Utopian societies, since all person's must be legal and have legal rights, even in extended life. If persons are not legal, and have no legal rights, since they must be part of secret organizations which the government does not recognize publicly, then there will be crime, injustice, slavery, and secret threats the to state, and to the Utopian society and nation. It is also possible to use surveillance technologies to monitor all threats to a town and nation, and yet give each person their privacy rights. The public surveillance technologies can be tuned to only monitor for dangerous substances and pollutants everywhere, and illegal activities in the public places only, so that all other matters are kept private and are not viewable by surveillance technologies or by any other organization or person. Citizens can purchase privacy force field technologies which filter out all media, except the standard communication frequencies, and governmental frequencies that check for dangerous substances and pollutants. Each town, state and nation needs to have their own public surveillance technologies which every citizen can view at the local police stations, to check the airspace around them to make sure it is safe, and to monitor for dangerous substance and pollutants. To maintain creativity over long time periods, towns can be engineered to promote certain types of cultures, which allow person's to recreate or reexperience different cultures in life. Since art work and other ideas can be patented, eventually all knowledge and art will be patented and there will be no more room for creativity, unless some towns are set up, to allow persons to reinvent and reexperience art and ideas, by promoting media in the town that allows this to occur. All records of history and knowledge can be made available in general to all, and then the details of the knowledge can be made available publicly to scholars, professional business persons, government agents, and lawyers by professional identification cards to secure the safety and justice of the community, so that no knowledge or record needs be secret, forgotten, or classified to be not viewable by the public. The rest of the world could also engineer such Utopian societies as proposed above in 50 to 100 years time. If communist and third world countries such as China spent all of their recourses on developing new technologies as stated above, and reducing their population gradually at a rate of 5 percent per ten years, which is realistic in China, then in 50 years time China would also be a Utopian society as stated above. No nation on Earth presently, needs to invade another nation nor create world wars to solve its problems at home. The only global activities that need to be monitored and checked, where some minimal warfare may be justified to achieve the goals, are the use of dangerous technologies and substances that could endanger the whole planet or any nation. The underworld communistic and inner Earth societies some of which may be extraterrestrial, can also solve their problems as stated above. Space travel can be made available to the underworld communistic societies, where planets will welcome them with standard immigration forms and policies. If the underworld and inner Earth societies are worried about surface societies invading their regions due to their public knowledge, then they can make public immigration policies, which limit which persons may visit or immigrate to their regions. The surface societies of Earth only need to publicly and officially work out agreements between the surface and the underworld societies and extraterrestrial societies, to make the above notions possible, which are realistic and achievable. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: tom@rhfweb.com President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com --part1_7d.3b812246.2c59ab7c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Utopian future of Earth soon to come

The culture that I grew up in Michigan, and many other cultures in the Unite= d States, would and can presently engineer a Utopian future for the USA and=20= Earth.  With cold fusion energy and energy transmutation technologies,=20= which are presently available but not common public knowledge, the Utopian c= ulture that I grew up in which is similar to Star Trek, would and could prov= ide the basic needs of life such as food, clothing, shelter, privacy, and he= alth for all citizens under a constitutionally just and peaceful government.=    This form of Utopian society is not communistic nor socialistic= , since it encourages free enterprise to allow citizens to run businesses an= d earn extra income beyond the basic needs of life, and citizens have their=20= freedoms to choose their occupation, since the central government does not d= ictate to others what their occupation will be nor control their basic busin= ess enterprises.

The USA presently has the technologies to engineer a society as proposed abo= ve within 50 years time, which would have been the normal historical course=20= of the USA, had the USA not been secretly taken over by secret communistic u= nderworld powers. The USA only has to change a few public governmental polic= ies to improve security in the USA, in the next 10 years to be able engineer= a Utopian society as stated above.  The USA must be more honest public= ly about the secret threats to the USA such as immigration, secret undergrou= nd inner Earth societies, and extraterrestrials.  The USA must place pu= blicly viewable surveillance system's at all borders, in the sky's, and unde= r the grounds of the USA, to publicly monitor all threats and illegal immigr= ation to the USA.  The surveillance systems must be able to detect and=20= neutralize all harmful biological, chemical, and nuclear agents in the air a= t all times instantly.   We presently have the surveillance techno= logies as stated above which are already set up and used by the government,=20= but which are kept secret to be used against USA citizens for the benefit of= other nation states and secret societies living in the inner Earth and unde= rworld.   The USA only has to make the above surveillance technolo= gies and information available to the general public and to improve its lega= l policies to be more just, civilized and peaceable, to allow the USA to ach= ieve a Utopian society in the next 50 years.

The USA has a negative population growth so that the USA will not have probl= ems with overpopulation for hundreds of years to come, even in a utopian soc= iety where there are no diseases due to surveillance technologies which dete= ct harmful pollutants and purify them; and persons can live longer as a cons= equence.  Since person's can live longer, the USA government must also=20= develop public policies which handle extended life.  New identities sho= uld be public policy and made available to all as long as the receiving town= accepts the person by agreements made publicly and as a matter of record.&n= bsp; If the time comes in a few hundred years, where overpopulation may be a= problem in the USA, then persons can be offered extended lives beyond a gua= ranteed 100 years, by becoming military personal defending the planet, or na= tion for 50 years time, before they may then receive a new life and new iden= tity.  Region's can be set up where person's may live after 100 years,=20= which may not have all of the eternal life benefits, to allow person's to li= ve our their lives naturally, happily, and die naturally and randomly. = There can also be a random process to allow a person to receive new identit= ies and new lives, so that every person has the chance of extended life, and= their potential death is unknown, natural, and randomized.   Pers= on's can be allowed to immigrate to other planets by means of space travel w= ith standard governmental immigration policies which are public knowledge, w= here planets welcome them, to solve overpopulation and extended life problem= s.   Person's can make agreements with towns before their deaths t= o receive a new identity if the town will receive them and could use their t= alents.   All of the above ideas need to be made a part of the pub= lic governmental policies and records, in order to achieve Utopian societies= , since all person's must be legal and have legal rights, even in extended l= ife. If persons are not legal, and have no legal rights, since they must be=20= part of secret organizations which the government does not recognize publicl= y, then there will be crime, injustice, slavery, and secret threats the to s= tate, and to the Utopian society and nation.

It is also possible to use surveillance technologies to monitor all threats=20= to a town and nation, and yet give each person their privacy rights.  T= he public surveillance technologies can be tuned to only monitor for dangero= us substances and pollutants everywhere, and illegal activities in the publi= c places only, so that all other matters are kept private and are not viewab= le by surveillance technologies or by any other organization or person. = ; Citizens can purchase privacy force field technologies which filter out al= l media, except the standard communication frequencies, and governmental fre= quencies that check for dangerous substances and pollutants.  Each town= , state and nation needs to have their own public surveillance technologies=20= which every citizen can view at the local police stations, to check the airs= pace around them to make sure it is safe, and to monitor for dangerous subst= ance and pollutants. 

To maintain creativity over long time periods, towns can be engineered to pr= omote certain types of cultures, which allow person's to recreate or reexper= ience different cultures in life.  Since art work and other ideas can b= e patented, eventually all knowledge and art will be patented and there will= be no more room for creativity, unless some towns are set up, to allow pers= ons to reinvent and reexperience art and ideas, by promoting media in the to= wn that allows this to occur.   All records of history and knowled= ge can be made available in general to all, and then the details of the know= ledge can be made available publicly to scholars, professional business pers= ons, government agents, and lawyers by professional identification cards to=20= secure the safety and justice of the community, so that no knowledge or reco= rd needs be secret, forgotten, or classified to be not viewable by the publi= c.

The rest of the world could also engineer such Utopian societies as proposed= above in 50 to 100 years time.  If communist and third world countries= such as China spent all of their recourses on developing new technologies a= s stated above, and reducing their population gradually at a rate of 5 perce= nt per ten years, which is realistic in China, then in 50 years time China w= ould also be a Utopian society as stated above.  No nation on Earth pre= sently, needs to invade another nation nor create world wars to solve its pr= oblems at home.   The only global activities that need to be monit= ored and checked, where some minimal warfare may be justified to achieve the= goals, are the use of dangerous technologies and substances that could enda= nger the whole planet or any nation.

The underworld communistic and inner Earth societies some of which may be ex= traterrestrial, can also solve their problems as stated above. Space travel=20= can be made available to the underworld communistic societies, where planets= will welcome them with standard immigration forms and policies.  If th= e underworld and inner Earth societies are worried about surface societies i= nvading their regions due to their public knowledge, then they can make publ= ic immigration policies, which limit which persons may visit or immigrate to= their regions.   The surface societies of Earth only need to publ= icly and officially work out agreements between the surface and the underwor= ld societies and extraterrestrial societies, to make the above notions possi= ble, which are realistic and achievable.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron= , Email: tom@rhfweb.com
President Thomas D. Clark, tom@rhfweb.com, www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\= newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.c= om\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.c= om

 --part1_7d.3b812246.2c59ab7c_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 31 04:24:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA12476; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 04:23:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 04:23:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3F28FBEE.9CCC3037@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:22:22 +0300 From: hamdix X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: "Autothixotropy" of Water - an Unknown Physical Phenomenon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yP6X81.0.i23.7nFA_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0307046 A relatively simple experiment pointout to ”ephemeric polymerisation” of water. Regards, hamdi ucar "Autothixotropy" of Water - an Unknown Physical Phenomenon Authors: Bohumil Vybiral, Pavel Voracek Abstract: A complex of until now unknown phenomena ongoing in water was discovered in laboratory experiments, where it made impossible gravimetric measurements with the necessarily extreme precision. This behaviour of water, which we call autothixotropy, was the issue of the presented experimental research. We are also proposing a possible explanation. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 31 05:13:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA29472; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 05:12:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 05:12:33 -0700 Message-ID: <025e01c3575c$f14255d0$6401a8c0@colinqamd1200> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Subject: Common Duct Electrolytic Oxy-Hydrogen Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:11:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [65.49.180.21] using ID at Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:11:18 -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <"GXHY22.0.QC7.nUGA_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.greaterthings.com/News/FreeEnergy/Directory/Hydrogen/Oxy-Hydrogen/index.html Common Duct Electrolytic Oxy-Hydrogen Paper by Dr. William A. Rhodes, author and co-author of dozens of energy related patents. Posted here for first time, now that patent has expired. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 31 08:30:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA08743; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:28:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:28:26 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030731112656.02871520@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:28:31 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ICCF-10 Program uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ajd9Q1.0.P82.PMJA_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We finally uploaded the ICCF-10 program, at: http://iccf10.org/ I hope to upload some or all of the abstracts soon. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 31 11:23:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA12975; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:20:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:20:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:20:33 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: radioneuclide remediation and cold electricity Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"T6w5y1.0.fA3._tLA_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Conex Tom; Please increase your font size. I assumed that you got the information on the Brown Nuclear Battery from Nusol. I was going to forward it until I noticed the hidden link to Rex Research, not the most reputable source. Did you find a link to the .pdf encrypted paper that Paul wrote? The BNB patent will expire in the spring of 2006, if I can afford it I'll get to the bottom of the matter at that time. As for humans creating a utopia on earth. That will happen when the problem of human evil, AKA sin, is removed, not before. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 31 12:54:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA27516; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:51:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:51:49 -0700 Message-ID: <20030731195144.40094.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:51:44 -0700 (PDT) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: radioneuclide remediation and cold electricity To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"JSUKS1.0.mj6.KDNA_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: step one, removing victimless crime from teh list of sins. --- thomas malloy wrote: > Conex Tom; > > Please increase your font size. > > I assumed that you got the information on the Brown > Nuclear Battery > from Nusol. I was going to forward it until I > noticed the hidden link > to Rex Research, not the most reputable source. Did > you find a link > to the .pdf encrypted paper that Paul wrote? The BNB > patent will > expire in the spring of 2006, if I can afford it > I'll get to the > bottom of the matter at that time. > > As for humans creating a utopia on earth. That will > happen when the > problem of human evil, AKA sin, is removed, not > before. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 31 13:05:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA01543; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:03:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:03:49 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.20030731210346.00686180@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:03:46 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: "Autothixotropy" of Water - an Unknown Physical Phenomenon Resent-Message-ID: <"I1JYB3.0.1O.bONA_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:22 pm 31-07-03 +0300, you wrote: >http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0307046 > >A relatively simple experiment point out to ”ephemeric polymerisation” of water. > >Regards, > >hamdi ucar Mmm....interesting. :-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 31 17:56:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA08338; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:54:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:54:58 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [202.49.180.23] X-Originating-Email: [aether22@msn.com] From: "John B" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: radioneuclide remediation and cold electricity Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:54:25 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2003 00:54:25.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[7431B930:01C357C7] Resent-Message-ID: <"qpAcT2.0.522.XfRA_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/51368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We have a Utopia now, it's all how you decide to look at it. What would you want in a Utopia that you can't have today? Sure, there are people suffering, I'm not saying it's a Utopia for everyone. Even if you had a Utopia there would still be suffering outside of the Utopia. You do need money to make the world your personal Utopia, but that would be true even in a Utopia. The only thing I can think of that I would want in my Utopia which isn't possible now is space travel, it's waaay overpriced, and your limited to this solar system. Still if you've got the money a stay at the ISS would be an awe inspiring experience. Of course you are free to make your own rockets or space ships, but that is easier said than done. You are also able to live in a gated community, or simply live somewhere that doesn't need gates. Between conventional and alternative medical treatment you can live a long and health life, and cure most things that might be a problem. You can extend your life, and if you extend your life 10-20 years by then chances are they will develop things necessary to extend your life another 10-20 years. Actually with stem cells it is fully possible to extend your life indefinitely and undo aging, you can live forever so long as you've got the money. (Obviously aging is only one cause of death though) In short this world is what you make of it, it can be your paradise, with friendly people, stunning nature, advanced technology and every kind of pleasure and convenience money can buy. Or you can live somewhere where the people are horrible, crime is high. Kill your brain with drugs, get cancer and do what the doctors say without considering alternatives. Find a job you hate, and do it. Marry someone you can't stand, do something stupid and go to jail, take up compulsive gambling, smoking and drinking. Lose what little you have and end up in the gutter. Unlike a Utopia you are free to experience Heaven, or Hell or any degree in between, and most of it is up to you. Most laws (that are enforced) are reasonable, and you can get around most laws, or go to places where that law doesn't exist. You can go anywhere you want, do most anything, experience any kind of pleasure conceived. And who can have this? Anyone, as many millionaires started from nothing. However if you don't plan on living so large, or doing so much, then you can still live a wonderful life without much money. >--- thomas malloy wrote: > > Conex Tom; > > > > Please increase your font size. > > > > I assumed that you got the information on the Brown > > Nuclear Battery > > from Nusol. I was going to forward it until I > > noticed the hidden link > > to Rex Research, not the most reputable source. Did > > you find a link > > to the .pdf encrypted paper that Paul wrote? The BNB > > patent will > > expire in the spring of 2006, if I can afford it > > I'll get to the > > bottom of the matter at that time. > > > > As for humans creating a utopia on earth. That will > > happen when the > > problem of human evil, AKA sin, is removed, not > > before. > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _________________________________________________________________ Download MSN Messenger @ http://messenger.xtramsn.co.nz - add your friends!