From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 14:23:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA22570; Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:20:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:20:31 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040101170232.01cb17d8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 17:20:26 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Cold Fusion on Canadian Radio Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"N_Pvr.0.YW5.lq9z_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52748 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Krivit writes: > In one corner: Park > In the other corner: McKubre, Hagelstein and Storms Darth Varder versus the forces of Civilization. Robert Park is amazing, isn't he? Perhaps I am hopelessly prejudiced, but it seems to me his arguments are so whacky, and so utterly lacking in common sense and logic, he probably convinces more of audience that CF is real than the careful statements of McKubre et al do. If Park did not exist we would have to invent him. Park said in the debate, and he is quoted in the CBC site: "[Park] isn't convinced that cold fusion is a real phenomenon, and won't be until we actually see a working cold fusion generator available." I suppose any normal product engineer or research scientist would consider such statements crazy! Does he really think educated technologists will buy this standard? (I know the hardcore skeptics do, but they are far from normal.) In the long view of history, it may turn out that people like Park, Huizenga and Taubes did more to promote CF than many supporters. I do not mean this because supporters are ineffectual or politically inept (although some of them are). I say this because Park, Huizenga and especially Taubes make such a weak case for their own side, they probably alienate more people than they win over. I believe there would have been enormous opposition to CF no matter what had happened, and no matter who had lined up in favor or against it. I do not think that Park or Huizenga have marshalled any greater opposition than would have existed without them. If they had not stepped up to play their roles, a hundred other "leading" scientists would have been happy to take their place, and perhaps these others would have presented more lucid, rational, technically sound reasons to doubt CF. Actually, many people -- such as Ed Storms or even I -- could do a better job presenting the skeptic's arguments than the skeptics themselves do. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 20:21:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA19400; Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:19:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:19:49 -0800 Message-ID: <20040102041916.63644.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:19:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Science Fair Fodder? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"QkLEg1.0.4l4.a5Fz_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52750 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Having talked to a few bright, serious but uninspired young students this Holiday season, here is a further thought and proposal for experimentation, based on the previously mentioned paper of Li et al from ICCF-10. This paper and perhaps the earlier work of Les Case presents an important and easily disproved finding - that being the possibility of a special or ‘magic’ parameter of temperature-pressure-materials which has been reputedly discovered to yield robust “excess heat” in certain metal hydride systems, even in the absence of applied input energy. And one such parameter is very specific, according to Li. There is a wide range of implications to Li’s findings – and hopefully a few of the more respected and well-equiped labs are pursuing replication - however (assuming it is replicable) some of the simpler variations of the basic idea also beg to be systematically tested. Since the importance of the Li finding is only exceeded by its potential simplicity, I would like to propose a preliminary planning stage, open to any here on vortex who might be interested in helping out - in an alternative slant on this. It involves designing ‘in great detail’ an inexpensive range of experiments, based on the Li findings. The primary aim of this is for younger experimenters, especially those of the “science fair” age group of high school science-nerds. I don’t suspect that many of that category actually read this forum, but that problem is relatively unimportant, because those students can be reached in other ways should anything of interest come out of this idea… and it would be really cool, if eventually it did result in some significant advance in the science of alternative energy coming from a bright teenager in a trial-and-error mindset. If not, the effort might serve to captivate and engage an additional population of free-energy converts. The Li findings were done with Pd-D2 and were rather precise and complicated, compared to what can be contemplated (if we assume that the Li findings are correct.) For instance, it is possible that a geometric or kinematic set of parameters are more important than the typical CF materials that Li used - and that Pd or even D2 are unnecessary to achieve excess heat (as there is no clear evidence yet that this is a CF reaction, as opposed to a QM, ZPE or hydrino reaction. Also, for instance, in a bare bones experiment, even a high vacuum system may be unnecessary and it should be possible to use a PC sound card and free software for data-logging (which now appears to be absolutely the most critical issue, as well as one that favors the younger PC literate experimenter). It is possible that accurate-enough temperature probes can be taken (borrowed) from consumer items, so one can envision a large number of Edison-like long-term experiments that cost little more to the research participants than say, an Apple i-pod. At any rate, any suggestions and comments are welcome. Including the possibility that I am personally reading too much into the Li experiment, and that his particular work is not of such extreme importance and/or simplicity as it now seems. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 20:34:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA28507; Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:34:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:34:00 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c3d0e9$c8016d80$c864a8c0@win98> From: "hamdix@iris" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040101170232.01cb17d8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion on Canadian Radio Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 06:34:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"EXUyQ1.0.Nz6.tIFz_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52751 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: 02 January 2004 00:20 Subject: RE: Cold Fusion on Canadian Radio > > Robert Park is amazing, isn't he? Perhaps I am hopelessly prejudiced, but > it seems to me his arguments are so whacky, and so utterly lacking in > common sense and logic, he probably convinces more of audience that > CF is real than the careful statements of McKubre et al do. If Park did not > exist we would have to invent him. > > > In the long view of history, it may turn out that people like Park, > Huizenga and Taubes did more to promote CF than many supporters. I do > not mean this because supporters are ineffectual or politically inept (although > some of them are). I say this because Park, Huizenga and especially > Taubes make such a weak case for their own side, they probably alienate more > people than they win over. I think Park primary serve to prevent CF research be funded and supported in larger communities. As long as he carry APS title, it is not important the relevance of what he said. If I were in a job to allocate fund and other resources for scientific researches in a institution or a company having public shares, I will consider broadcasted Park's "warning": Keep out, otherwise you will be in trouble. > Park said in the debate, and he is quoted in the CBC site: > > "[Park] isn't convinced that cold fusion is a real phenomenon, and won't be > until we actually see a working cold fusion generator available." > > I suppose any normal product engineer or research scientist would consider > such statements crazy! Does he really think educated technologists will buy > this standard? (I know the hardcore skeptics do, but they are far from normal.) This is the point, engineer and scientist not but, management yes. In a hiearchical structure of institutions, even technologists would prefer to give mild opinons, that is not contradicting anything, even potentially. This would iterate in going up: Recommendations potentially not contradicting anything. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 21:08:51 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA14804; Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:08:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:08:06 -0800 Message-ID: <000d01c3d0ee$8a6b7d80$c864a8c0@win98> From: "hamdix@iris" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040101170232.01cb17d8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Cold Fusion on Canadian Radio Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 07:08:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jss653.0.9d3.roFz_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52752 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are interesting articles found by Goggle by keyword "Robert Park". For example http://www.microwavenews.com/openparkletter.html "Rebecca Chasan, the executive editor of JNCI,has also refused to come to the phone. So we were unable to ask her why she picked you, a lobbyist for the American Physical Society, to comment on an epidemiological study of mobile phone users. An odd choice for a cancer journal, though consistent with NCI's doggedly wrongheaded approach to EMF issues." I guess this is not coincidental the "choice" of the JNCI. Park sure had his job in saving mobile phone industry by retraining further investigations in cell phone radiation biological effects. Network is impressive: From industry to Journal of the National Cancer Institute and then to Park. These things happening as routine. See http://www.mindfully.org/GE/2003/Ignacio-Chapela-Tenure-UCB26jun03.htm and related articles reaching to Nature to retract article of the author (first time in its history) by the pressure of the industry despite their scientific advisors. It become a scandal then Nature republished the article. See also http://nature.berkeley.edu/pulseofscience/index.php "The four participants in this conversation have performed simple, yet dramatic discoveries that question the wisdom of a quarter century of commitment to an agenda of agricultural development based on intensive technological dependence. The publication of their research brought these researchers world-wide attention, but made them into urgent targets for suppression from an ailing but still powerful Biotech industry. As a consequence, each of the participants has encountered not only controversy, but also threats to their research, reputations, and livelihoods. Behind their research lies a commitment to make their best knowledge available for the public. Behind the hurdles they have faced lies one of the greatest challenges to public, democratic discourse in our century: the growing influence of private interests in the scientific enterprise." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: 02 January 2004 00:20 Subject: RE: Cold Fusion on Canadian Radio Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 14:21:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA18357; Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:20:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:20:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3FF5EF13.57E0D001@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:22:11 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 02, 2004] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9sZB22.0.mU4.HwUz_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52753 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 02, 2004 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 16:17:18 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: whatsnew@bobpark.org To: Akira Kawasaki WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 2 Jan 03 Washington, DC 1. FAD DIETS: BOB PARK IS STARTING OFF THE NEW YEAR EATING CROW. An item on mad-cow disease in last week's WN included a warning about long-term health effects of high-protein diets from a group called The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. Alas, a number of readers pointed out that PCRM is a cover for animal rights activists. Human health is not high on their agenda, and WN regrets having used them as a source. In the long-running carbohydrate-protein debate, WN endorses only the "physics plan": consume fewer calories than you burn (WN 25 Feb 00). This is the only diet plan firmly based on the First Law of Thermodynamics. 2. CLIMATE CHANGE: DIESEL ENGINES IMPLICATED IN GLOBAL WARMING. In the city, vehicle exhaust quickly transforms winter wonderland into black yuck. NASA scientists James Hansen and Larissa Nazarenko report that even in pristine areas of our planet soot levels in snow reach 100 ppb, mostly from diesel engines. That's enough to significantly reduce the albedo and accelerate melting http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/2237157100v1 . Not surprisingly, the diesel engine industry disputes the study. 3. EPHEDRA: IF IT STARTS KILLING CELEBRITIES, IT'S GONE TOO FAR. Sold for weight loss, body building and a cheap high, more than 100 deaths were attributed to the herbal supplement ephedra since passage of the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act, which exempts suppliers of "natural" supplements from any need to test for safety, purity or effectiveness. Sales reached $1.4B. The supplement industry's friends in Congress control the FDA budget. They made sure the FDA couldn't afford to test all the supplement products. WN was almost alone in warning of ephedra (WN 7 Sep 01) until a young major league pitcher became a victim (WN 28 Feb 03). That made it front page news. This week, ephedra became the only supplement banned by the FDA since 1994. 4. NATIONAL PARK SERVICE: "O LORD, HOW MANIFOLD ARE THY WORKS!" This pious praise of the architect of the Grand Canyon is from Psalm 104:24. Donald Murphy, Deputy Director of the Park Service, ordered a bronze plaque inscribed with Psalm 104:24 mounted on the South Rim viewing platform, along with two other plaques bearing equally inappropriate Psalms. Visitors must also be impressed with how quickly the Lord dug the canyon. A book approved for sale in park bookstores and museums, "Grand Canyon: A Different View," explains that the canyon can at most be a few thousand years old, since that's how long it's been since Earth was created. Meanwhile, in the Mojave National Preserve, the Park Service is waging a court battle to continue displaying an eight-foot-tall cross atop a prominent rock outcropping. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 10:15:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01875; Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:12:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:12:53 -0800 (PST) From: rajesh@natant.org Message-ID: <000b01c3d224$a89812a0$e9e9a8c0@etcnetwork> To: References: <3FF5EF13.57E0D001@ix.netcom.com> Subject: a query on 'catalyst powder' used in oil refineries Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 23:38:57 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"QAAtR3.0.ET.YOmz_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52754 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like your views on one crucial technical aspect covered in a January 3 newsreport in a newspaper in Bombay in India. It pertains to heavy leakage of what is termed as 'catalyst powder' from the chimneys of a petroleum refining Indian government company. The newsreport is self explanatory and I share it below. If you read it, then can you throw some light on initial queries I have on the matter? - Who is telling the truth in the newsreport? The petroleum company's PR guy or the resident and doctor of the affected area?. - If the resident and doctor are more on dot, then how much seriously can the 'catalyst powder' affect the health of the affected residents? Thanks. Rajesh Here is that newsreport: http://web.mid-day.com//news/city/2004/january/72867.htm HPCL plant spews catalyst powder By: Kalika Bro-Jorgensen January 3, 2004 Residents of Gavan Pada, Chembur, woke up this New Year's Eve to find the village covered by a film of white powder. The dust was made up of a catalyst powder released from the neighbouring Hindustan Petroleum Corporation Ltd (HPCL) refinery plant. "The incident took place around 2 am - it looked as if we were experiencing snowfall. We didn't think much about it because it was dark and everyone was celebrating. But the next morning, the entire village was covered by the powder," said Kanchan Mhatre, a resident of Gavan Pada. According to villagers, a similar powder had leaked out from the HPCL plant a fortnight ago, but this time, the quantity was much more. Mhatre said each household had collected about two kilos of catalyst powder. Residents went to the HPCL plant the next morning and succeeded in meeting the general manager, Namdeo, after hours of waiting. He confirmed the leakage and sent people to sweep the streets of Gavan Pada. But when Mid Day visited the village, the rooftops and trees were still covered with powder and all indoor as well as outdoor surfaces were dusty. "It is not a leakage. Due to a failure in the machinery and heavy wind pressure, some amount of catalyst powder slipped out of our chimney during start-up," said Rajesh Chaturvedi of Abfactors PR, HPCL's public relations firm. "It (the powder) is not harmful and the refinery is fully functioning now. Everything is under control," he added. Gavan Pada, a village of 15,000 people, is surrounded on all sides by industrial units, including HPCL, IndianOil, Bharat Petroleum Corporation Ltd., and Bombay Paints. The villagers say they encounter oil, gas and chemical pollution every day, which has seriously affected their health. "My patients in Gavan Pada have an abnormally high incidence of respiratory problems such as bronchitis and pneumonia. Catalyst powder is very dangerous for health and the pollution will definitely affect their general health as well as their overall life span. The action taken to clean it up is not sufficient," said Dr Rajkumar Jain, MBBS, who practices in the area. "We all feel asthmatic, have problems with our throat and chest and suffer loss of stamina. But that morning, the problem was much worse than usual," said Mhatre. Despite their hazardous environment, villagers are not willing to leave their homes. "We are natives of this place and we love our land. We do not want to live anywhere else. I just wish they (HPCL) would remove the pollution problem, as it is a question of my life, and that of my relatives and neighbours. They (HPCL) ought to give some sort of compensation to the village for the health problems they have inflicted upon us all," added Mhatre. But HPCL is unlikely to cough up any compensation. "The catalyst powder is absolutely safe, not injurious to health. In fact our general manager ate some in front of the villagers. Since it is not harmful, we will not pay any compensation," said Chaturvedi. What is catalyst powder? Catalyst powder is used to convert heavy oil to light oil in a catalyst cracking unit. According to HPCL, the catalyst powder they use is made of silica and is absolutely harmless to humans. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 02:00:09 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA06562; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:57:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:57:02 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 00:59:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs (once again with feeling) Resent-Message-ID: <"EtoCJ.0.Uc1.jJJ-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52755 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs Since electrospark phenomena occur at high flux, and at these fluxes vacuum arcs form cathode and anode spots, locations of very high current density. Since similar hot spots appear on electrospark electrodes, it is reasonable to consider these spots to be similar in nature to vacuum arc electrode spots, about which much is known. [1] The extreme temperature of electrode spots in an electrolyte, the clearly visible ejecta and luminescent area at the spot surface, are signs that the interior of the spots should be indistinguishable from those in a vacuum arc. The purpose here is to speculate on potential explanations for some poorly understood aspects of electrode spot mechanics, and possible application of the principles to the creation of useful devices. The typical size for a cathode spot is about 0.1 micron.[1] There is much not fully understood about cathode spots. As of 1980, there were at least 17 major explanations for them. [2] There is also the continuing investigation of other emission anomalies under the "Pseudospark" classification. [3] Of special interest about cathode spots is that metallic vapor jets issue from them with velocities of up to 1000 m/sec, with one atom of metal removed per about every 10 electrons emitted. [4] These spots can have high currents, estimated at up to 10^8 A/cm^2, and it is thought that the emission of high energy electrons is by thermal-field (T-F) emission as described by Schottky [5] and that the less energetic electrons are emitted by field emission (tunneling) It is thought most of the emission is T-F emission, but, as of 1980, there was no experimental proof of this. [6] A calculation using Childs space charge equation shows a vacuum arc 1 cm long varying a current density of 100 A/cm^2 would require about 100 KV voltage, and that if 99 percent of the electron space charge were balanced by a distribution of positive charge, then 4800 V would be required. [7] Actually only 28 V is required, indicating the space charge is neutralized to within a few parts per million, and that this neutralization occurs at the cathode spot. "Flows of ions away from cathode spots toward the anode (against the main electric field of discharge) have been detected by both optical and mass spectrographic data." [7] Lafferty and Dillon state: "Honig [8] and Franzen and Schuy [9] found large amounts of multiply charged ions as well as singly charged ions. Plyutto et al. [10] showed in addition that the average ion energies correspond to voltages exceeding the total arc voltage, thus the average ion has sufficient energy to move anywhere within the discharge. Davis and Miller [11] confirmed, extended, and made more precise those earlier measurements: they showed that the energies of the neutral atoms emanating from the arc are much less than those of the ions, and apparently are confined to thermal energies, except for a few forming a high energy tail of the distribution. In copper arcs the energy gap (measured at anode potential) between the average singly charged ion and the average neutral exceeds 30 eV. There is very little overlap between neutral atom and ion energy distribution." [12] Arc voltage characteristics are poorly understood, and no published theory explains the positive resistance characteristic or tells why the arc voltage for molybdenum is higher than for copper. [13] It appears to the author to be especially true the voltages are poorly understood at arc extinguishing currents because of the extreme fluctuations, fluctuations many times arc voltage and at frequencies of 1 - 15 MHz, despite the addition of up to 2500 uH inductors in the circuit. [14] If such voltage fluctuations were the result of circuit parameters the addition of inductance would have changed the transient frequencies. The combination of all these factors leads the author to hypothesize that pair formation may be going on in conductors at thermal levels. Due to thermal collisions, such pairs would have a very short half-life, and thus would not permit formation of any macro level coherence like that exhibited in superconductors. However, if such pair formation were frequent enough, it could account for some part of the above phenomena. If there is pair availability in the cathode, then neutral atoms, boiled off the interior surface of the cathode spot hole, could be seeds for formation of doubly negative charged condensate formation, e.g. a Cu-- condensate formation. It is even possible that the pair formation and tunneling to a co-centered location with the seed atom occurs at the same instant. The essential conditions would only be that the electrons have equal but opposite momentum, within the binding energy for a pair, and be equidistant from the seed. There would only be the possibility of tunneling to nearly exact co-centering on the seed. However, this co-centered configuration, even though having a high potential energy due to the tunneling of the electrons through their coulomb barrier, represents a lowest energy configuration for the electrons, thus the high probability even though the volume involved is small. The formation of double negative ions provides a couple explanations. One, it explains how the metal ions are accelerated out of the hole. Another is that, when the ion reaches the boundary of the hole, it meets the full electrostatic field gradient of the plasma ball in front of the electrode. Acceleration here would destroy the condensate and a high energy explosion due to the mutual repulsion of the condensate electron pair would result. The energy of that explosion would quickly be dissipated in the plasma ball by collision. However, it has been experimentally observed that the plasma ball contains ions well above the total potential drop across the vacuum arc. [15] Lastly, it explains why the energetic group of metal atoms are positively charged positive ions, or even multiply charged positive ions, and yet going the wrong direction. That is because the energy of the electron repulsion at the moment of condensate breakdown is sufficient to knock one or two extra electrons off the metal atom, thus leaving it as a positive ion with higher momentum than the thermal neutrals. Perhaps these mechanisms can explain the very presence of the high energy plasma ball on the cathode. The oscillations at near extinguishing voltages and currents could possibly be explained by the fact that when current is down the ion density is down and the electrons from the exploding condensates preserve their high kinetic energy longer. In fact, as current approaches zero, the mean free path can exceed the arc gap width. As heat in the spot drops a larger percentage of the current must be due to tunneling. This means a greater concentration of the explosive condensates should be formed, and upon reaching the surface of the spot hole their explosion could produce a strong negative pulse which (1) momentarily suppresses the potential in the spot hole, and (2) generates heating on the surface of the hole. These effects serve to reduce the current while shifting the mode more back to the lower voltage T-H type arc. Operating in that normal low voltage mode, however, the hole quickly cools and potential drops, repeating the cycle. There are various devices which seem to gain energy from arc and abnormal glow current oscillations. If the hypothesis is true then perhaps the excess energy is coming from condensate explosion. These condensates are the result of concurrent tunneling of one or more electron pairs to a neutral atom or ion in the cathode vicinity, especially in cathode spot plasma. Since electrons tunnel in pairs across Josephson junctions as often as they tunnel singly, it is reasonable to expect a high pair tunneling rate even in a non-superconductor, although the number of candidate pairs in the medium may be extremely small. Due to the value of the present hypothesis in explaining otherwise seemingly impossible phenomena, it may be that candidate pairs in hot conductors have a larger population than might be expected. A method of producing pair tunneling which is an alternative to electrode spot production may be to create and utilize a thin dielectric layer that assures that all electron current is tunneling current. It is of special interest that Al, for example, is coated with Al2O3, which is a very strong insulator, yet aluminum conducts very well through this very thin oxide boundary. By "conditioning" electrodes through operation at a high voltage, dielectric layers can sometime be created which do not conduct well below the operating voltage. This fact may permit creation of an electrode well suited for pair conduction at a desired energy level. The author has had positive results coating electrodes using CaO solutions by applying high voltage AC current for 10 to 30 minutes prior to using high voltage DC electrolysis. It is unknown if the polarizing properties of calcite possibly so formed were involved in the dielectric layer deposited or if such polarizing properties affected the energy balance of the electrolytic cell. [16] Of special interest in such cells was the blue glow formed about the anode electrode at high voltages. Lastly, electron pair tunneling may help explain low energy nuclear reactions, and the positive relationship of flux to the frequency of such reactions. Electrons tunneled to a condensate proton or deuteron can not be expected to have tunneled instantaneously into a stable waveform, thus may momentarily exhibit more of a particulate character than wave character. This production of a small negatively charged nucleus-electron condensate may then permit close nuclear approach and the electron catalysis of fusion. The rate of such catalysis would be a function of the electron pair flux, not the pair energy. The pair formation rate, however, is at least in part a function of voltage. The tunneled electron pair would not be bound sufficiently to the nucleus to permit the condensate to make a very close approach to another nucleus without breaking the bond. However, once the bond is broken, the abnormally close electron pair may repel at such a large initial energy, that the deBroglie wavelength will remain small enough to perform the catalysis. The existence of electron pairs in hot conductors is very speculative. However, this one speculation gives explanation to various otherwise unexplained phenomena, and suggests a wide variety of related regimes for experimental exploration. Though far more speculative, similar pair tunneling of nucleii could also occur. The primary diffence would be that the large nuclear mass greatly reduces the expected tunneling distance. Since conduction in electrolytes is almost exclusively due to proton tunneling anyway, such an evironment may make the ideal place for nuclear pair condensation to occur in an anodic analog to the cathode spot. Such an analog would be the issuance of pairs of hydrogen nucleii pairs from the interior of a nano-sized electrolyte bubble. Such pairs would condense on a negative charged particle, and the source of such a particle would be a high voltage metal cathode. In a high voltage electrolysis cell the electrolyte surface in the cathode plasma sheath acts as an anode. Unlike the condensation of electrons, which does not involve a strong nuclear force, the condensation of a pair of hydrogen nucleii establishes a permanent fusion. FOOTNOTES: 1. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980 2. Ibid, p.5 3. and other info obtained by www search on "pseudospark". 4. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.9 5. W. Schottkey, "Ann. Phys." (Leipzig), 44, 1011(1914) 6. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.122 7. Ibid. p.123 8. R. E. Honig, "Proceedings of the Twelfth Annual Conference on Mass Spectroscopy". Montreal, June, 1964, p. 233 9. J. Franzen and K. D. Schuy, "Z. Naturforsch," 20a, 176(1965) 10. A. A. Plyutto, V. N. Ryzhkov, and A. T. Kapin, "Sov. Phys - J Exp. Theor. Phys.," 20, 328(1965) 11. W. D. Davis and H. C. Miller, J. Appl. Phys. 40, 22212(1969) 12. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.126 13. Ibid, p.153 14. Ibid, p.154 15. Ibid, p.302 16. Various postings by H. Heffner to vortex-l@eskimo.com on CaO electrolyte cells. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 07:49:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA05276; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:48:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:48:39 -0800 Message-ID: <005101c3d3a2$00f62580$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs (once again with feeling) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:38:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA05039 Resent-Message-ID: <"miacq.0.II1.NTO-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52756 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, Very interesting. The phenomena you mention bear a strong resemblance to Ken Shoulders EV work. He uses very high current density and has documented for many years though revealing SEM images a wide range of hot spots with clearly visible ejecta in the same size range you mention. He also normally uses ceramic coated electrodes, such as Al2O3 coated. The main difference is that rather than pairs, he sees a much larger number of bound electrons. And his results are well-documented in the available literature and on the internet. Just out of curiosity, since you included a bibliography, is there a reason that you are ignoring Ken's work? Jones BTW A poster entitled "Low Voltage Nuclear Transmutation", was presented by Ken Shoulders at ICFF-10 held in Cambridge, MA. A 2 MB, PDF version of this poster and other files and images can be found at: http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 08:56:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA17023; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:53:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:53:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040105113903.01cb3230@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:52:34 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Science Fair Fodder? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qbsk13.0.u94.ZPP-_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52757 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am wildly enthusiastic about the idea of encouraging high school kids and college undergrads to replicate CF. However, I have some reservations about the experiments described by Li and Case. I presume Jones Beene has in mind the experiment in Li's "Progress in Gas Loading Pd/D System." As Beene says, this has not been replicated yet. I think students should wait until it has been. Also, doesn't this require some fairly expensive equipment? As for Case, he has not been able to replicate his own results for several years as far as I know, so I would not recommend this to anyone. Perhaps the best target experiment for high school students would be the one Dash's students perform. Dash and William Collis (in Italy) are now working on a replication of this, which they will document carefully. I believe they plan to make the documentation available to anyone, to encourage replications. It is scheduled to be done in time for a public demonstration at a high school on March 19, 2004. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 11:39:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA25091; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:36:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:36:29 -0800 Message-ID: <008d01c3d3c1$d4921c40$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040105113903.01cb3230@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Science Fair Fodder? Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:26:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA25054 Resent-Message-ID: <"P9JXB3.0.z76.yoR-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52758 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes > I am wildly enthusiastic about the idea of encouraging high school kids and > college undergrads to replicate CF. However, I have some reservations about > the experiments described by Li and Case. I presume Jones Beene has in mind > the experiment in Li's "Progress in Gas Loading Pd/D System." As Beene > says, this has not been replicated yet. I think students should wait until > it has been. Yes, in an ideal world that is true but why wait, if the only two choices available to you at the moment are doing nothing or proceeding with caution on a promising low-cost alternative? Li's experiment is simpler and safer than Dash's, doesn't require ongoing electrolysis or a precision power supply or meters (only a hot plate) has little risk of explosion and he claims 100% reproducibility (but of course, so have many others, to the mutual disappointment of all) but the main reason I find this experiment compelling for younger experimenters is that because of the low cost, safety and simplicity, it is feasible to run an active cell *simultaneously* and side-by-side with a control. This is critical for simplicity's sake. On turning-off of the external heat, one need only measure and data-log delta T over several hours or days (hopefully) for both cells. Students can use the 'sound card' on their computers to do this kind of data-logging over extended periods, so there is no need for complicated calorimetry, water-baths etc. or expensive meters. > Also, doesn't this require some fairly expensive equipment? Not at all, especially if we can dispense with an ongoing vacuum, which is not certain yet, of course. But there seems to be the potential to use only an initial hand-operated vacuum pump and sealed cell with this experiment (more precisely, the proposal is for a simpler offshoot of the Li experiment which has little to do with the work of Case). This potential simplicity is especially true if it is the *geometry* of 10 microns which is the key to success. Admittedly I am reading a lot into Li's results, but I see the 'magic temperature' as indicative of a critical wavelength/ion free-path parameter that can be accentuated by the proper material geometry and substrate choices. The SONO connection... IOW the Li modality may end up being very similar to *sonofusion* or sonoluminescence, but at a much smaller wavelength and much higher frequency (so it should be more robust if properly done) where an exact combination of heat, pressure (ion free-path) and containment (metal-porosity) give the same type of collapsing bubble effect (spherical convergence) as is found in sonofusion. If one could get close enough, it would be possible to see how violently kinetic a metal containment structure becomes at only 150 degrees C.- vibrating a billion times faster than ultrasonics ! I think it may end up being a 'balancing act' of getting all the parameters just right -something that Li may have stumbled on inadvertently. > Perhaps the best target experiment for high school students would be the > one Dash's students perform. Dash and William Collis (in Italy) are now > working on a replication of this, which they will document carefully. I > believe they plan to make the documentation available to anyone, to > encourage replications. It is scheduled to be done in time for a public > demonstration at a high school on March 19, 2004. That is fantastic! We can only hope it is successful (eat your heart out, MIT). And that more of this kind of grass-roots experimentation were affordable and safe enough for widespread use (not forgetting the SRI tragedy). A few notable successes in these kinds of LENR experiments among the impressionable age group, and the long-term commercial inevitability of LENR will be assured, despite whatever 'official' level of neglect and disdain the science-funders chose to practice. Jones BTW if anyone is interested in looking for LENR effects at the10 micron geometry and 150 degrees C., one way to pull this off that I am planning to pursue (hopefully with some students) is to plate Pd (or maybe Ti or Ni) onto a conductive sintered metal structure (one with ~10 micron porosity). It would probably help to float the resultant cell at a slight positive potential on a hot-plate. Sometimes, promising substrate materials will even appear on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2584631363&category=57013 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 13:02:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21938; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:58:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:58:13 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs (once again with feeling) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:21:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"VkgE01.0.dM5.X_S-_"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52759 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace In idle moments, when the steam of speculation reaches critical pressure, I imagine that pair formation ( of the form electron and positron ) occurs in the spark/arc. Electron-electron pair formation is an interesting notion, but how to explain why this occurs in such a chaotic medium as a plasma??? You write: >Arc voltage characteristics are poorly understood, and no published theory >explains the positive resistance characteristic or tells why the arc >voltage for molybdenum is higher than for copper. [13] It appears to the >author to be especially true the voltages are poorly understood at arc >extinguishing currents because of the extreme fluctuations, fluctuations >many times arc voltage and at frequencies of 1 - 15 MHz, despite the >addition of up to 2500 uH inductors in the circuit. [14] If such voltage >fluctuations were the result of circuit parameters the addition of >inductance would have changed the transient frequencies. Not sure what you're referring to here, I don't have a copy of the ref to check. I've seen oscillations due to the inductance of the arc and capacity of the electrodes, also due to geometry of electrodes ( similar but with L in the electrode as well as C ). I've seen relaxation oscillations as well, and all of these can be pretty independent of the external circuitry. If the effect occurs when the arc currents drop to just above extinguishing, I'm not surprised you'd see all sorts of HF activity. A lot is going on at that point, sensitive to a lot of different circuit parameters. Good luck nailing that to a theory (grin). K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 5:00 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs (once again with feeling) Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs Since electrospark phenomena occur at high flux, and at these fluxes vacuum arcs form cathode and anode spots, locations of very high current density. Since similar hot spots appear on electrospark electrodes, it is reasonable to consider these spots to be similar in nature to vacuum arc electrode spots, about which much is known. [1] The extreme temperature of electrode spots in an electrolyte, the clearly visible ejecta and luminescent area at the spot surface, are signs that the interior of the spots should be indistinguishable from those in a vacuum arc. The purpose here is to speculate on potential explanations for some poorly understood aspects of electrode spot mechanics, and possible application of the principles to the creation of useful devices. The typical size for a cathode spot is about 0.1 micron.[1] There is much not fully understood about cathode spots. As of 1980, there were at least 17 major explanations for them. [2] There is also the continuing investigation of other emission anomalies under the "Pseudospark" classification. [3] Of special interest about cathode spots is that metallic vapor jets issue from them with velocities of up to 1000 m/sec, with one atom of metal removed per about every 10 electrons emitted. [4] These spots can have high currents, estimated at up to 10^8 A/cm^2, and it is thought that the emission of high energy electrons is by thermal-field (T-F) emission as described by Schottky [5] and that the less energetic electrons are emitted by field emission (tunneling) It is thought most of the emission is T-F emission, but, as of 1980, there was no experimental proof of this. [6] A calculation using Childs space charge equation shows a vacuum arc 1 cm long varying a current density of 100 A/cm^2 would require about 100 KV voltage, and that if 99 percent of the electron space charge were balanced by a distribution of positive charge, then 4800 V would be required. [7] Actually only 28 V is required, indicating the space charge is neutralized to within a few parts per million, and that this neutralization occurs at the cathode spot. "Flows of ions away from cathode spots toward the anode (against the main electric field of discharge) have been detected by both optical and mass spectrographic data." [7] Lafferty and Dillon state: "Honig [8] and Franzen and Schuy [9] found large amounts of multiply charged ions as well as singly charged ions. Plyutto et al. [10] showed in addition that the average ion energies correspond to voltages exceeding the total arc voltage, thus the average ion has sufficient energy to move anywhere within the discharge. Davis and Miller [11] confirmed, extended, and made more precise those earlier measurements: they showed that the energies of the neutral atoms emanating from the arc are much less than those of the ions, and apparently are confined to thermal energies, except for a few forming a high energy tail of the distribution. In copper arcs the energy gap (measured at anode potential) between the average singly charged ion and the average neutral exceeds 30 eV. There is very little overlap between neutral atom and ion energy distribution." [12] Arc voltage characteristics are poorly understood, and no published theory explains the positive resistance characteristic or tells why the arc voltage for molybdenum is higher than for copper. [13] It appears to the author to be especially true the voltages are poorly understood at arc extinguishing currents because of the extreme fluctuations, fluctuations many times arc voltage and at frequencies of 1 - 15 MHz, despite the addition of up to 2500 uH inductors in the circuit. [14] If such voltage fluctuations were the result of circuit parameters the addition of inductance would have changed the transient frequencies. The combination of all these factors leads the author to hypothesize that pair formation may be going on in conductors at thermal levels. Due to thermal collisions, such pairs would have a very short half-life, and thus would not permit formation of any macro level coherence like that exhibited in superconductors. However, if such pair formation were frequent enough, it could account for some part of the above phenomena. If there is pair availability in the cathode, then neutral atoms, boiled off the interior surface of the cathode spot hole, could be seeds for formation of doubly negative charged condensate formation, e.g. a Cu-- condensate formation. It is even possible that the pair formation and tunneling to a co-centered location with the seed atom occurs at the same instant. The essential conditions would only be that the electrons have equal but opposite momentum, within the binding energy for a pair, and be equidistant from the seed. There would only be the possibility of tunneling to nearly exact co-centering on the seed. However, this co-centered configuration, even though having a high potential energy due to the tunneling of the electrons through their coulomb barrier, represents a lowest energy configuration for the electrons, thus the high probability even though the volume involved is small. The formation of double negative ions provides a couple explanations. One, it explains how the metal ions are accelerated out of the hole. Another is that, when the ion reaches the boundary of the hole, it meets the full electrostatic field gradient of the plasma ball in front of the electrode. Acceleration here would destroy the condensate and a high energy explosion due to the mutual repulsion of the condensate electron pair would result. The energy of that explosion would quickly be dissipated in the plasma ball by collision. However, it has been experimentally observed that the plasma ball contains ions well above the total potential drop across the vacuum arc. [15] Lastly, it explains why the energetic group of metal atoms are positively charged positive ions, or even multiply charged positive ions, and yet going the wrong direction. That is because the energy of the electron repulsion at the moment of condensate breakdown is sufficient to knock one or two extra electrons off the metal atom, thus leaving it as a positive ion with higher momentum than the thermal neutrals. Perhaps these mechanisms can explain the very presence of the high energy plasma ball on the cathode. The oscillations at near extinguishing voltages and currents could possibly be explained by the fact that when current is down the ion density is down and the electrons from the exploding condensates preserve their high kinetic energy longer. In fact, as current approaches zero, the mean free path can exceed the arc gap width. As heat in the spot drops a larger percentage of the current must be due to tunneling. This means a greater concentration of the explosive condensates should be formed, and upon reaching the surface of the spot hole their explosion could produce a strong negative pulse which (1) momentarily suppresses the potential in the spot hole, and (2) generates heating on the surface of the hole. These effects serve to reduce the current while shifting the mode more back to the lower voltage T-H type arc. Operating in that normal low voltage mode, however, the hole quickly cools and potential drops, repeating the cycle. There are various devices which seem to gain energy from arc and abnormal glow current oscillations. If the hypothesis is true then perhaps the excess energy is coming from condensate explosion. These condensates are the result of concurrent tunneling of one or more electron pairs to a neutral atom or ion in the cathode vicinity, especially in cathode spot plasma. Since electrons tunnel in pairs across Josephson junctions as often as they tunnel singly, it is reasonable to expect a high pair tunneling rate even in a non-superconductor, although the number of candidate pairs in the medium may be extremely small. Due to the value of the present hypothesis in explaining otherwise seemingly impossible phenomena, it may be that candidate pairs in hot conductors have a larger population than might be expected. A method of producing pair tunneling which is an alternative to electrode spot production may be to create and utilize a thin dielectric layer that assures that all electron current is tunneling current. It is of special interest that Al, for example, is coated with Al2O3, which is a very strong insulator, yet aluminum conducts very well through this very thin oxide boundary. By "conditioning" electrodes through operation at a high voltage, dielectric layers can sometime be created which do not conduct well below the operating voltage. This fact may permit creation of an electrode well suited for pair conduction at a desired energy level. The author has had positive results coating electrodes using CaO solutions by applying high voltage AC current for 10 to 30 minutes prior to using high voltage DC electrolysis. It is unknown if the polarizing properties of calcite possibly so formed were involved in the dielectric layer deposited or if such polarizing properties affected the energy balance of the electrolytic cell. [16] Of special interest in such cells was the blue glow formed about the anode electrode at high voltages. Lastly, electron pair tunneling may help explain low energy nuclear reactions, and the positive relationship of flux to the frequency of such reactions. Electrons tunneled to a condensate proton or deuteron can not be expected to have tunneled instantaneously into a stable waveform, thus may momentarily exhibit more of a particulate character than wave character. This production of a small negatively charged nucleus-electron condensate may then permit close nuclear approach and the electron catalysis of fusion. The rate of such catalysis would be a function of the electron pair flux, not the pair energy. The pair formation rate, however, is at least in part a function of voltage. The tunneled electron pair would not be bound sufficiently to the nucleus to permit the condensate to make a very close approach to another nucleus without breaking the bond. However, once the bond is broken, the abnormally close electron pair may repel at such a large initial energy, that the deBroglie wavelength will remain small enough to perform the catalysis. The existence of electron pairs in hot conductors is very speculative. However, this one speculation gives explanation to various otherwise unexplained phenomena, and suggests a wide variety of related regimes for experimental exploration. Though far more speculative, similar pair tunneling of nucleii could also occur. The primary diffence would be that the large nuclear mass greatly reduces the expected tunneling distance. Since conduction in electrolytes is almost exclusively due to proton tunneling anyway, such an evironment may make the ideal place for nuclear pair condensation to occur in an anodic analog to the cathode spot. Such an analog would be the issuance of pairs of hydrogen nucleii pairs from the interior of a nano-sized electrolyte bubble. Such pairs would condense on a negative charged particle, and the source of such a particle would be a high voltage metal cathode. In a high voltage electrolysis cell the electrolyte surface in the cathode plasma sheath acts as an anode. Unlike the condensation of electrons, which does not involve a strong nuclear force, the condensation of a pair of hydrogen nucleii establishes a permanent fusion. FOOTNOTES: 1. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980 2. Ibid, p.5 3. and other info obtained by www search on "pseudospark". 4. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.9 5. W. Schottkey, "Ann. Phys." (Leipzig), 44, 1011(1914) 6. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.122 7. Ibid. p.123 8. R. E. Honig, "Proceedings of the Twelfth Annual Conference on Mass Spectroscopy". Montreal, June, 1964, p. 233 9. J. Franzen and K. D. Schuy, "Z. Naturforsch," 20a, 176(1965) 10. A. A. Plyutto, V. N. Ryzhkov, and A. T. Kapin, "Sov. Phys - J Exp. Theor. Phys.," 20, 328(1965) 11. W. D. Davis and H. C. Miller, J. Appl. Phys. 40, 22212(1969) 12. Lafferty and Dillon, "Vacuum Arcs", Wiley & Sons, 1980, p.126 13. Ibid, p.153 14. Ibid, p.154 15. Ibid, p.302 16. Various postings by H. Heffner to vortex-l@eskimo.com on CaO electrolyte cells. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 10:05:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA20437; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:03:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:03:26 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040106130211.01cb1c80@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:03:13 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: CERG.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3mGjW1.0.G_4.jXl-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52760 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://cerg.org/index.htm I do not know what this is. It looks like Dennis Cravens and Dennis Letts are involved. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 10:26:12 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA05487; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:24:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:24:39 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: CERG.org Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:48:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040106130211.01cb1c80@pop.mindspring.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"S5Gig3.0.ZL1.crl-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52761 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed. Thanks for the link. This looked interesting, http://cerg.org/research/discussion/index.html Something called... cmns.mit.edu ( On-line peer reviewed journal dedicated to LENR phenomenon) ...which when clicked on leads one to a games website. Blowing up alien boogers is great fun, but any idea what the real link is??? K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 1:03 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: CERG.org See: http://cerg.org/index.htm I do not know what this is. It looks like Dennis Cravens and Dennis Letts are involved. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 11:09:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA04588; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:07:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:07:20 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040106134808.01cb1930@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:54:19 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The Dyson Story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pw1kh2.0.Z71.eTm-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52762 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This company makes a patented vacuum cleaner that works much better than competing models, and it is working on other innovative products such as washing machine that makes clothes cleaner with less damage to the fabric. See: http://www.dyson.com/nav/inpageframe.asp?id=DYSON/HIST/MENU QUOTES: No place for new technology James Dyson offered his invention to major manufacturers. One by one they turned him down, apparently not interested in new technology. They seemed determined to continue selling bags, worth $500 million every year. Later, Hoover's Vice President for Europe, Mike Rutter, said on UK national TV: "I do regret that Hoover as a company did not take the product technology off Dyson; it would have lain on the shelf and not been used". Something to hide In under 2 years, Dyson was the UK's best-selling vacuum. Miele, Bosch, Siemens, Electrolux and Philips tried to stop Dyson showing how their models clogged and lost suction. Later, manufacturers started to admit that bags reduced suction, and then tried to jump on the bandwagon to produce `bagless' vacuums, but these also clogged just like a bag vacuum. Meanwhile 60% of people were buying a Dyson because it was recommended to them. The patent nightmare James Dyson's vacuum was nearly never made due to patent fees and legal costs incurred defending his invention against patent infringement by a giant corporation. During the development years when James had no income, this nearly bankrupted him. He risked everything, and fortunately the risk paid off. Then in 1999, Hoover UK tried to imitate a Dyson and James was forced back to court to protect his invention again. After 18 months Dyson finally won a victory against Hoover UK for patent infringement. . . . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 11:33:12 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA22860; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:31:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:31:16 -0800 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Randy Souther Subject: Re: CERG.org Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:30:50 -0800 To: Vortex-l X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Resent-Message-ID: <"t06pH2.0.7b5.3qm-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52763 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's a working address: http://www.rle.mit.edu/phagelstein/ Randy On Jan 6, 2004, at 10:48 AM, Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Jed. > > Thanks for the link. > > This looked interesting, > > http://cerg.org/research/discussion/index.html > > Something called... > > cmns.mit.edu ( On-line peer reviewed journal dedicated to LENR > phenomenon) > > ...which when clicked on leads one to a games website. > Blowing up alien boogers is great fun, but any idea > what the real link is??? > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 1:03 PM > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: CERG.org > > > See: > > http://cerg.org/index.htm > > I do not know what this is. It looks like Dennis Cravens and Dennis > Letts > are involved. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 13:21:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA23404; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:20:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:20:00 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:23:07 -0900 To: , From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs (once again with feeling) Resent-Message-ID: <"MmE9t3.0.Wj5._Po-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52765 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:21 PM 1/5/4, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Horace > >In idle moments, when the steam of speculation reaches >critical pressure, I imagine that pair formation ( of >the form electron and positron ) occurs in the spark/arc. >Electron-electron pair formation is an interesting >notion, but how to explain why this occurs in such >a chaotic medium as a plasma??? > Sorry for failing to define terms. By "electron pairs" here I refer to pairs of electrons sharing quual but opposite momentum. I could have used the term "Cooper pairs", but that would be misleading in that there is no long range order necessarily implied, as superconductors are not involved. My implication is that the momentary "order" required for simultaneous pair tunneling might arrise by pure probability from chaos just as well as it does from the long term order preserved in superconductor quantum states. For this reason I just called such electron pairs "pairs" rather than "Cooper pairs". Perhaps I should have defined a term "pseudo-Cooper-pairs". Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 13:22:15 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA23361; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:19:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:19:58 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:22:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs (once again with feeling) Resent-Message-ID: <"7PMvy1.0.ti5.zPo-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52764 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:38 AM 1/5/4, Jones Beene wrote: >Horace, > >Very interesting. > >The phenomena you mention bear a strong resemblance to Ken Shoulders EV work. Actually, much of the work referenced occurred long before Shoulders' work. The similarity is that Shoulders' work involves electrons coming together. There the similarity pretty much ends. Shoulders' work is based on his belief in massive shelf adhereing globs of electrons he calls EV's. Further, his patent specifically denies any nucleation of the EV. The major premise put forth here requires much smaller miracles. It is suggested here that two and only two electrons which form a Cooper-like pair can tunnel to a neutral nucleating atom. This doesn't require much in the way of miracles, like violation of the Pauli Principle for example. The only "miracle" assumed here is the possibility that, even in a hot environment, that some small population of electron pairs on opposite sides of a small cavity can share equal but opposite momentums long enough to tunnel as a pair to a nucleating neutral atom. The miracle here happens in a tiny cavity. Shoulders' EV creation happens at the tip of a needle. > >He uses very high current density and has documented for many years though >revealing SEM images a wide range of hot spots with clearly visible ejecta >in the same size range you mention. He also normally uses ceramic coated >electrodes, such as Al2O3 coated. The pupose of Shoulders' cermic coating is NOT to maximize tunneling current. The ceramic coated electrodes he uses are anodes, not the electron source, which is a cathode. His ceramic, by making a small conductive hole upon breakdown, simply increases current density. What I have suggested is using thin insulating layers on the cathode for increasing the probability of tunneling, especially electron pair tunneling in cavities on the surface. However, if a suitable barrier could be manufactured, then an nucleus pair tunneling process could be implimented on an anode to encourage tunneling of pairs of nucleii on a negative nucleate. This kind of approach is very different from blasting holes in insulating barriers. > >The main difference is that rather than pairs, he sees a much larger >number of bound electrons. And his results are well-documented in the >available literature and on the internet. I don't know of any peer reviewed articles by Shoulders. What he "sees" may or may not be strictly a product of his mind. Time will tell. > >Just out of curiosity, since you included a bibliography, is there a >reason that you are ignoring Ken's work? I included references, not a Bibliography. References are used to substantiate statements. However, since you mention it, I would probably not be inclined to reference Ken's earlier EV work or EV theories as subtantiation for anything I would write (not that anything I would write would have any credibility!). I spent a lot of time reviewing his patents and earlier work, and even replicated and extended some of his work, and it seemed to me that there were always alterntave explanations. The case for existence of EV's seems to me to be largely a matter of results interpretation. Fortunately, it is not up to me to either prove or disprove their existence. That is Shoulders' job, not mine. In fact, EV's may well exist or not, as far as I am concerned. It never appeared to me that Shoulders did any definitve experiments. Further, it appears that none of that earlier work on EV's has yet yielded any practical results, despite the robust reference to vaporware in the patents. It seems to me that work of that nature, to be taken seriously as a reference, should either be published in peer reviewed literature or at least have resulted in some credible product. Further, my article was written in 2001, and last posted on vortex February, 2002, under the subject: "Cathode Spots and Electron Pair tunneling": - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 3:45 PM 2/3/2, Horace Heffner wrote: >Since electrospark phenomena occurs at high flux, and at these fluxes >vacuum arcs form cathode and anode spots, locations of very high current >density, and since similar hot spots appear on electrospark electrodes, it >is reasonable to consider these spots to be similar in nature to vacuum >arc electrode spots, about which much is known. [1] The extreme >temperature of electrode spots in an electrolyte, the clearly visible >ejecta and luminescent area at the spot surface, are signs that the >interior of the spots should be indistinguishable from those in a vacuum >arc. [snip] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Work done in 2002 or later would of course not be referenced anyway. As you can see, I edited the first sentence because it was run-on, but in my typical manner botched it! 8^) Things seemed a bit slow on vortex for on-topic discussion, so I simply edited this old post a bit and sent it again. I see the troll worked! 8^) I would like to point out some other significant differences between approaches based on double negative ions vs EV's. Shoulders teaches the approach of making sparks through dielectrics in order to get EV's and then from this massive coalescence of charge in the form of EV's you get nuclear reactions, essentially by catalysis, despite the fact there is no evidence for any form of binding energy for large numbers of electrons. Cooper pairs DO have a small binding energy, but superposition of a massive number of pairs of electrons in an EV does not increase the binding energy, but on the contrary, reduces with increased electron count the amount of EV internal kinetic energy required for EV disintegration. The presence of a positive charge or a pair of positive charges near an EV should be highly disruptive to the EV to say the least, and thus highly limits its possible role as a catalyst. It seems to me the physical evidence for EV's is subject to interpretation and the physical theory on which to base such an interpretation is nearly non-existent. Further, the teachings of the EV philosophy do not seem to be effective in leading to practical devices. What I have suggested is perhaps an answer to various old riddles regarding vacuum arcs, riddles on which the assumed existance of an EV provides no illumination. Further, as far as I know, the idea of using tunneling barriers and small cavities to achieve pairwise tunneling has not been discussed as a strategy for creating LENR devices as far as I know. As far as I am concerned, the existence or non-existence of EV's is irrelevant to this kind of discussion. There is one striking similarity, however, I must admit. The creation of EV's violates the conservation of energy by building a massive co-located cloud of charge by superposition of electrons. Similarly, the tunneling of a pair of electrons to a "nucleating" neutral atom violates COE in the same manner. If electrons indeed can be viewed as a single waveform which results in a their acting as a cloud of negative charge, then very little binding energy is required for a pair of electrons to be co-located and co-centered. In that situation there is no net force between the two clouds of charge. The net force between co-centered radially symmetric clouds of charge is zero. The force that holds a single electron's cloud of charge together is actually most of what binds the pair-cloud together, provided the electrons have no mutual momentum. In the case of single pair of electrons, assuming they are oriented so that the polarity of spin is reversed, some binding force is indeed provided by the electron's magnetic fields. In addition, interactions of the electron pair with the nucleating atom's orbital electrons might create additional bonding similar to hydrogen bonding. The mutual charge of the electron pair creates a barrier to forming a double negative charge ion. However, if the pair can tunnel into the configuaration, then, once there, the configuration should be stable for a while. One condition for this is that the mutual sum of the electron's momenta must be zero with the limits of the binding energy of the final desired state. This is the same condition applied to the formation of Cooper pairs. The interesting thing here is that the possibility of such a tunneling taking place violates the Laws of Thermodynamics. We have here a tiny Maxwell's demon. The difference between creation of an EV and creation of a simple double negative ion lies in the probability of tunneling against the size barrier presented. The first ion can be achieved with compartive high probability, while the tunneling barrier and thus tunneling probability into a highly charged EV drops with each added pair. It thus seems that engineering a device on the basis of violation of the Laws of Thermodynamics, if possible at all, would be much more readily achieved using the principles put forth here vs using principles involving the creation of EV's which have much more than a million electrons. On the other hand, if EV's do exist and are readily created, the energy contained in them is vast indeed. It should then be easy to create an energy producing device. One problem may be that tunneling can occur in reverse, and thus the hoped for kinetic energy to be gained by the electrons flying apart can not be realized. Confirmation of the existence of, and disruption of, heavy double negative charge ions at the face of the plasma ball in front of cathode spots would show that it is possible to obtain the desired excess kinetic energy, that such energy can be obtained without loss to electron tunneling back through the "barrier". The key to explosive disruption then is exposing the double negative ion to a stong electrostatic field. The plasma ball in front of cathode spots may actually be sustained in part by free energy of the Maxwell's demon kind. It may be of interest to attempt to manufacture double negative ions of the form H--, He--, etc, via tunneling of electrons, by passing the neutral gas through pores in negatively charged plates. > >Jones > >BTW A poster entitled "Low Voltage Nuclear Transmutation", was presented >by Ken Shoulders at ICFF-10 held in Cambridge, MA. > >A 2 MB, PDF version of this poster and other files and images can be found at: >http://www.svn.net/krscfs/ > > > Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 16:27:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA07898; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:25:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:25:44 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: CERG.org Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:49:55 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"yrNAA.0.Mx1.88r-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52766 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice. A peer reviewed "journal" consisting simply of index pages containing links to publicly available content servers. The ultimate in low cost internet journaling. When can we expect the inaugural issue? K. -----Original Message----- From: Randy Souther [mailto:tinmachine@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 2:31 PM To: Vortex-l Subject: Re: CERG.org Here's a working address: http://www.rle.mit.edu/phagelstein/ Randy On Jan 6, 2004, at 10:48 AM, Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Jed. > > Thanks for the link. > > This looked interesting, > > http://cerg.org/research/discussion/index.html > > Something called... > > cmns.mit.edu ( On-line peer reviewed journal dedicated to LENR > phenomenon) > > ...which when clicked on leads one to a games website. > Blowing up alien boogers is great fun, but any idea > what the real link is??? > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 1:03 PM > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: CERG.org > > > See: > > http://cerg.org/index.htm > > I do not know what this is. It looks like Dennis Cravens and Dennis > Letts > are involved. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 23:11:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA02407; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:10:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:10:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040106185329.009f6b20@post.strato.de> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040106185329.009f6b20@post.strato.de> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:10:33 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: New book on "Scalar waves" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1138663051==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"FJNWy3.0.Yb.V3x-_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52767 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1138663051==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I thought that some of you people might be interested in this book. >Hallo Mr. Malloy, >it was March 6th 2002, when you have send me an email showing your >interest in my scientific work. >I can tell you, that the translation of my books is ready right now >and the English edition is available under the title "Scalar waves" >www.k-meyl.de . The book has 650 pages and consists of the 3 parts >of the German original "electromagnetic environmental >compatibility". The prize of the book is (28 Euro plus postal costs >in addition) resp. 45 US-Dollars including the shipping costs and >the present course of the money exchange. You can give your order to >me by email if you are interested and I would transfer it to the >publisher or you use our Internet shop. >I wish you a happy and peaceful New Year! >sincerely >Konstantin Meyl >________________________________________________ >Prof. Dr. Konstantin Meyl, University of Applied Sciences, >FH Furtwangen, Robert-Gerwig-Platz 1, D-78120 Furtwangen >and 1st Transfer Center of Scalar wave technology, >1.TZS, Leopoldstr.1, D-78112 St.Georgen, Germany. >Tel: +49-7724-1770, Fax: +49-7721-51870 >Internet: www.k-meyl.de email: meyl@k-meyl.de > >PS.: I am organizing a seminar on scalar waves in the region of >Washington DC on Friday Sept 3rd and saturday sept 4th 2004. More >information I will publish on my webpage. --============_-1138663051==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: New book on "Scalar waves"
I thought that some of you people might be interested in this book.

Hallo Mr. Malloy,
it was March 6th 2002, when you have send me an email showing your interest in my scientific work.
I can tell you, that the translation of my books is ready right now and the English edition is available under the title "Scalar waves" www.k-meyl.de . The book has 650 pages and consists of the 3 parts of the German original "electromagnetic environmental compatibility". The prize of the book is (28 Euro plus postal costs in addition) resp. 45 US-Dollars including the shipping costs and the present course of the money exchange. You can give your order to me by email if you are interested and I would transfer it to the publisher or you use our Internet shop.
I wish you a happy and peaceful New Year!
sincerely
Konstantin Meyl
________________________________________________
Prof. Dr. Konstantin Meyl, University of Applied Sciences,
FH Furtwangen, Robert-Gerwig-Platz 1, D-78120 Furtwangen
and 1st Transfer Center of Scalar wave technology,
1.TZS, Leopoldstr.1, D-78112 St.Georgen, Germany.
Tel: +49-7724-1770, Fax: +49-7721-51870
Internet: www.k-meyl.de email: meyl@k-meyl.de

PS.: I am organizing a seminar on scalar waves in the region of Washington DC on Friday Sept 3rd and saturday sept 4th 2004. More information I will publish on my webpage.

--============_-1138663051==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 05:20:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA28122; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:19:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:19:09 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:20:07 -0500 Subject: New book from Akronos From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oc1YE3.0.Kt6.DT0__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52768 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Friends, AKRONOS Publishing is pleased to inform you that Experimental Aetherometry, Volume 2A by Paulo N. Correa & Alexandra N. Correa is now available in book form. This volume contains ABRI Monographs AS2-08 - AS2-14, as well as an extensive introduction. For a detailed description and ordering information, please consult the Akronos Books Catalog at http://www.aetherometry.com/books.html. Other books currently in preparation at AKRONOS are "Nanometric Functions of Bioenergy (Foundations of Aetherometric Biophysics, Vol 1)", and "Experimental Aetherometry, Volume 2B". Yours, Laura McFinlay Akronos Publishing From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 09:48:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA17766; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:45:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:45:28 -0800 Message-ID: <004401c3d544$a3372b20$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Cathode Spots and Electron Pairs (once again with feeling) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:35:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA17720 Resent-Message-ID: <"w_3nW1.0.XL4.tM4__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52769 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes, > This [Cooper-pair formation at thermal temperatures] doesn't require much in > the way of miracles, like violation of the Pauli Principle for example. What ? On the contrary, bound pairs would be no less, nor no more likely to violate the exclusion principle than bound larger accumulations. You seem to be confusing the overly-simplified Bohr model (with its a single quantum number) with the full QM treatment for free electrons, where there will be an infinite number of quantum states available. In principle, I see little difference in the possibility of short-lived stability in pairs, compared with the possibility of short-lived stability in larger accumulations of electrons, at least when we are talking about QM factors - but in regard to other factors, there could be the added difficulty of balancing magnetic attraction with Coulomb repulsion, if that modality is somehow involved. But inasmuch as free electrons can have an infinite number of quantum states, the EV explanation should have little problem with Pauli exclusion - and consequently we must be dealing with a new phenomenon or paradigm to describe these violent events that Shoulders has documented so well in his SEM images. BTW, if I had to choose between models, I see absolutely NO conceivable way that your Cooper pairs can accomplish that kind of energetic explosion. Have you looked at those SEM images (from the site previously referenced), particularly in the context of scale? IOW a "miracle" is no less likely to have occurred because it is a small miracle and the features of that miracle are more "gradual". We must be dealing with a paradigm shift, and this might indeed favor the more radical explanation. BTW Pauli Exclusion Principle also applies to protons and neutrons in the nucleus, yet they exist together at close range comfortably in large numbers, such as in high Z nuclei, so what is your QM problem with EVs? > The only "miracle" assumed here is the possibility that, even in a hot > environment, that some small population of electron pairs on opposite sides > of a small cavity can share equal but opposite momentums long enough to > tunnel as a pair to a nucleating neutral atom. The miracle here happens in > a tiny cavity. Shoulders' EV creation happens at the tip of a needle. Yes, but your explanation fails WRT the *large* resultant damage to the electrodes, the violent images Ken has documented, and your therefore the simpler model would be the enormous (comparative) miracle when it comes to the end product - should that damage need to be accomplished by Cooper pairing alone. In either case, the cathode is large geometrically compared with the end product, plus, Shoulders method is not constrained to needle tips. Perhaps you are relying on his older work. Do you realize how old that patent is ? Give the guy some credit for evolving his ideas, just as you have evolved your own. > However, since you mention it, I would probably not be inclined to > reference Ken's earlier EV work or EV theories as substantiation for > anything I would write (not that anything I would write would have any > I spent a lot of time reviewing his patents and earlier > work, and even replicated and extended some of his work, and it seemed to > me that there were always alternative explanations. The case for existence > of EV's seems to me to be largely a matter of results interpretation. Yes, interpretation is everything. Wolfgang Pauli, in fact, would go on to write (with psychoanalyst Carl G. Jung) an essay entitled "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle." Pauli shocked the scince world by claiming that new QM discoveries vindicated synchronicity (in effect, 'spirtiuality') , which many skeptics have noted, is "the old belief in a system of magical correspondences in a new guise," because it suggest events may be linked by similarity just as much as by proximity. " Maybe Ken's version of 'new magic' is just synchronicity in action - a new paradigm waiting for its proper time... Jones BTW if you are looking for a reason why your CaO might promote 'nucleation' of a sort, where you found "positive results coating electrodes using CaO solutions by applying high voltage AC current for 10 to 30 minutes prior to using high voltage DC electrolysis" ... then check out this reference: http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/0953-4075/33/9/102/b009l2.html >From the Abstract. "A large basis investigation shows that positronic calcium, e+Ca, is stable with a binding energy of 0.220 eV and an annihilation rate of 0.64 × 109 s-1. The stability of e+Ca suggests that the heavier group II elements could also bind a positron.... " I suspect that the positron (virtual or real) is also somehow involved in a kind of nucleation for EVs (an alternative kind of aether-nucleation, that is) ... and that what you may be seeing in your own work is really EVs. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 07:49:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA08763; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:47:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:47:22 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.1.20040108152824.00b0e080@pop3.newnet.co.uk> X-Sender: lawrence@pop3.newnet.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:32:16 +0000 To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" From: Stephen Lawrence Subject: The Dyson Story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"T18Ca2.0.r82.9kN__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52770 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 'texians, At this late stage in the game, I'm not sure that the Dyson patent works in our best interests. Now that the initial R+D cost has been paid off, if several different companies worked on replicate models the design would be improved over the present one. Users may like them, but vacuum cleaner repair shops have queues of Dysons waiting for servicing. Stephen R. Lawrence, Cambridge, UK From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 10:04:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA07672; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:00:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:00:17 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040108125153.01cb2cc8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:00:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The Dyson Story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_aVw8.0.qt1.mgP__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52771 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen Lawrence writes: > At this late stage in the game, I'm not sure that the Dyson patent works in > our best interests. > > Now that the initial R+D cost has been paid off, if several different > companies worked on replicate models the design would be improved over the > present one. Users may like them, but vacuum cleaner repair shops have > queues of Dysons waiting for servicing. Well, patent law is not perfect. Sometimes it produces suboptimal or uneconomical results that harm consumers or inventors. But I cannot think of a scheme that would work better. If Dyson's company cannot keep up with demand, or if their product is not implemented well, they could probably make more profit by licensing the invention to others. Society as a whole would benefit from that arrangement. Cold fusion would be so complicated and expensive to implement that I think any patent holder should license. AT&T licensed the transistor, even though it was a huge company capable of mass producing large numbers of transistors on its own. I think most experts agree that in the end AT&T made more money by licensing that it could have made by exclusive manufacturing. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 10:34:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA06064; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:32:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:32:43 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The Dyson Story Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:56:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040108152824.00b0e080@pop3.newnet.co.uk> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"gUkmj.0.dU1.A9Q__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52772 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steve. The Dyson story was an interesting, if a bit biased, account of a typical invention cycle. Many of my clients make a living licensing inventions. Given the right idea, good salesmanship, and a willing company one can make a nice living this way. Sadly, the second quality is often lacking in inventors, and _good_ ideas ( not right ones ) often conflict with the needs of the established company. Really, if you ran one of the big vacuum cleaner companies, would you have licensed this patent for manufacture? Not now after the fact, but then when the inventor was first shopping the idea around. I could just see some of you as CEO at a shareholders meeting, telling everyone about the great new vacuum cleaner you're now producing which will cut company profits by 10-20% ( no after sale bag market ). Could you make it up in increased market share? Maybe, but that's a big gamble. So after shopping the patent around to all his (future) competitors, he jumps into manufacture. Great, but the lesson to be learned here is not to tip off your competitors if you have a technology that will undercut them. He should have gambled big and gone right into manufacture; given the nature of the invention. It's not like he was capital poor either; the guy has numerous successful inventions before this one. By the way, you all should go ahead and innovate on his design, patent the improvements, and license them to Dyson. That's how the system is supposed to work. Let's see how Dyson treats the IP holder when the shoe is on the other foot. K. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Lawrence [mailto:stephen@lawrence.newnet.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:32 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: The Dyson Story 'texians, At this late stage in the game, I'm not sure that the Dyson patent works in our best interests. Now that the initial R+D cost has been paid off, if several different companies worked on replicate models the design would be improved over the present one. Users may like them, but vacuum cleaner repair shops have queues of Dysons waiting for servicing. Stephen R. Lawrence, Cambridge, UK From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 11:38:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA21076; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:35:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:35:25 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040108141751.01cd1e38@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:35:20 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The Dyson Story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7fgkH.0.F95.z3R__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52773 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen Lawrence writes: > Users may like them, but vacuum cleaner repair shops have > queues of Dysons waiting for servicing. Let me add that I purchased one of these Dyson machines, and it seems rugged and well-made to me. I used it to clean up a carpet that I had just gone over with our old vacuum cleaner, and it picked up a huge amount of dirt! Maybe the repair shops have earlier models queued up for service? I think the quality must be good. Sales would not be booming if the machines were well designed but poorly implemented. The machine is made of heavy-duty plastic and manufactured in Singapore, by the way. I got it at Best Buy, a mass market all-in-one superstore. I purchased a multi-year extended warranty for $20. They told me if it does not work, they will chuck it and give me another. That's how we do things in the U.S. nowadays. We no longer have quaint old-fashioned "vacuum cleaner repair shops." Nobody here remembers how to manufacture or repair anything. The design is clever. Maybe even too clever. Some products, experiments and instruments are so well-thought-out, they are overdone. You get a sense that too many engineers investing too many hours of agonized concern for small details, and they forgot the advantages of simplicity. The Volvo dashboard is a good example. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 12:20:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA15596; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:18:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:18:51 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:18:47 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Dyson Story Message-ID: <20040108201847.GC827@genius.tao.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser , vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040108141751.01cd1e38@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="f0KYrhQ4vYSV2aJu" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040108141751.01cd1e38@pop.mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Resent-Message-ID: <"TBJZi1.0.Zp3.hiR__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52774 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --f0KYrhQ4vYSV2aJu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 02:35:20PM -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen Lawrence writes: >=20 > > Users may like them, but vacuum cleaner repair shops have > > queues of Dysons waiting for servicing. >=20 > Let me add that I purchased one of these Dyson machines, and it seems=20 > rugged and well-made to me. I used it to clean up a carpet that I had jus= t=20 > gone over with our old vacuum cleaner, and it picked up a huge amount of= =20 > dirt! Maybe the repair shops have earlier models queued up for service? I= =20 > think the quality must be good. Sales would not be booming if the machine= s=20 > were well designed but poorly implemented. >=20 I'm on my second Dyson having purchased the original DC01 that was on sale in the UK a five or six years ago. It was great technology but there were a few design problems with the way that the attachments mounted to the body of the unit when not in use. I also had many problems with it blocking and replacing the filters was an expensive operation. The old unit got dropped and a plastic "clip" broke and so the unit needed fixing. I decided against it and instead purchased a new DC08 (12 cyclone model). I can say that this one is much much more powerful than the previous one and although it was more expensive than the competitors models I'm very glad that we got it. It rocks! Additionally I've passed the old model onto my brother, who has the equipment to fabricate some replacement bits to fix the old machine. Joe --=20 Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk) http://www.josef-k.net/ FreeBSD (cvs meister, admin and hacker) http://www.uk.FreeBSD.org/ Physics Particle Theory (student) http://www.pact.cpes.sussex.ac.uk/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D An eclectic mix of fact an= d theory. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --f0KYrhQ4vYSV2aJu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAj/9uyYACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZVgACfejlPeYpEtWmiFEXdzlhXANkX wnEAoN3nTjJVJ+QgLU7UUhR2uKFIIF9i =zl1x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --f0KYrhQ4vYSV2aJu-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 14:12:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA32055; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:09:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:09:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3FFF262F.75C77322@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:07:43 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 09, 2004] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vIEuB.0.lq7.3Qo__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52775 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 09, 2004 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:14:20 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: whatsnew@bobpark.org To: Akira Kawasaki WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 9 Jan 04 Washington, DC 1. WEAPONS OF MASS DECEPTION: A RATIONALE FOR WAR OR A PRETEXT? The New York Times reported yesterday that a 400-member team of military weapons hunters has been quietly withdrawn from Iraq, to be replaced by a force trained to deal with homemade bombs. This must be "the imminent threat" we were told about before the war. On Wednesday, the Washington Post reported that, "Iraq's arsenal exists only on paper." In fact, plans for a long-range missile consisted of a hand drawn sketch on two sheets of notebook paper. The 1,400 member Iraq Survey Group has searched Iraq for more than seven months at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars. Citing "unauthorized" interviews with Survey Group members, the Post report says the Group now sees no prospect of finding banned weapons or production facilities. Also on Wednesday, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace released a report on WMD in Iraq. In the months before the war, it says,"the intelligence community began to be unduly influenced by policymakers views" 2. INTELLIGENCE: WAS A "BEWARE OF DOG" SIGN MISTAKEN FOR A DOG? Yesterday, Secretary of State Powell conceded that at the time of his UN speech last year, he had no concrete evidence linking Saddam Hussein to Al Queda. Where had the administration gotten its information? I decided to call my colleague, Ali Mentari, a nuclear physicist at Bagdad U. "How did you fool a smart guy like Powell," I asked. Ali paused long enough to finish chewing, "We not try to fool Americans. You got no idea of what we must do to survive under homicidal maniac. Saddam say 'build atomic bomb,' but we got no stuff to make bomb. So we drink tea and send reports to Saddam about great progress. We are truly sorry your CIA intercept them." The eating resumed; the interview was over. 3. MARS: "LIKE COLUMBUS, WE DREAM OF SHORES WE'VE NOT YET SEEN." Those stirring words were spoken by President George H. Bush on the steps of the Air and Space Museum on July 24, 1989, the 20th anniversary of the Apollo 11 Moon landing. He called for a return to the Moon, and on to Mars. President George W. Bush, who seems driven to complete his father's unfinished work, is expected to issue a similar call next Wednesday. It's a curiously old-fashioned dream. Progress of society is measured by the extent to which work that is menial or dangerous is performed by machines. The scientists that command telerobots like Spirit, having become virtual astronauts, are the explorers of today. 4. APPLICATIONS INVITED FOR SUMMER 2004 MASS MEDIA FELLOWSHIPS: The APS is sponsoring two ten-week summer fellowships to work in mass media organizations. Priority will be given to graduates in physics or closely related fields. The deadline is Jan. 31, '04. Details at http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/massmedia/index.html You know what the media is like; here's a chance to improve it. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 15:41:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA05062; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:39:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:39:46 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:40:45 -0500 Subject: THREE Presidential Candidates Say "Yes" to Proposed US DOE or NASA Office of Unconventional Energy From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: Eugene Mallove Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA04965 Resent-Message-ID: <"VJ9j_.0.0F1.1lp__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52776 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PRESS RELEASE (Friday, January 9, 2004): FROM: Dr. Eugene F. Mallove President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation) Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 www.infinite-energy.com editor@infinite-energy.com 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 THREE Presidential Candidates Say "Yes" to Proposed US DOE or NASA Office of Unconventional Energy CONCORD, New Hampshire: At a public forum for presidential candidates in Concord, New Hampshire, which was held at Temple Beth Jacob on the evening of January 8th, all three Democratic Party presidential candidates who attended ‹ Senator John Edwards, Senator Joseph Lieberman, and Congressman Dennis Kucinich - said "Yes" to a proposal by New Energy Foundation (NEF) to establish an Office of Unconventional Energy within the U.S. Department of Energy, or, alternately, within NASA. Their responses came in the form of answers to a question submitted by NEF President Dr. Eugene Mallove. The question was posed to the three candidates by forum moderator Rabbi Richard Klein, following an earlier exchange by the candidates on more general questions about foreign policy and energy and environmental policy. The forum lasted 90 minutes. A transcript of the question that was asked and the three candidate responses appears below. But first some background about the question: New Energy Foundation is a non-profit, non-partisan organization, which is dedicated to evaluating, publishing, and funding scientific research on experimental evidence and theories for sources of energy that have not received adequate or appropriate review by the scientific establishment. Among these are such New Energy forms as: low-energy nuclear reactions (a.k.a. "cold fusion"), vacuum energy, "zero point" energy, "hydrino" physics, and other experimentally motivated revisions of or extensions to modern physics. NEF publishes the scientific and popular journal, Infinite Energy: New Energy, New Science, New Technology. The question asked by Dr. Mallove was posed in a manner designed to bring the issue of NEW ENERGY into the public arena, from which it has been inappropriately absent from pronouncements by presidential candidates (with several exceptions) as far back as Bill Clinton in January 1992, also in Concord, NH. Therefore the question was posed in a way that might be more congenial to the candidates, who were gathered in Concord only a few weeks before the New Hampshire Presidential Primary. It is obvious that the question of New Energy will affect not only energy and the environment but also human health. So we begin by way of an analogy with energy: Within NIH (the National Institutes of Health) there is an Office of Alternative Medicine, the OAM, which evaluates medical treatments that are not deemed viable by conventional scientific theory, but which in many cases appear to work nonetheless ‹ such as acupuncture and some aspects of homeopathy. The OAM investigates controversial new methodologies that may work in concert with traditional medicine to promote human health. So, the question arises: Should we as a society do the same for frontier ideas in energy that are languishing due to official neglect and antagonism? The QUESTION asked by Rabbi Klein to the three candidates on January 8, 2004, after their answers to more general questions about energy and the environment: "I am going to ask for a 30-second follow-up. A very specific related question -- you can talk about alternative energy: Would you support an office within the United States Department of Energy to evaluate what might be called ³unconventional energy² sources ‹ NOT merely renewable sources such as wind power ‹ but such things as ³cold fusion² or so-called "zero-point" or vacuum energy? Thirty seconds! RESPONSES: Senator Joseph Lieberman: "I'll be real quick on this. The first detailed policy statement I made in this campaign was what I called a Declaration -- an American Declaration of Energy Independence. John spoke to it very eloquently. Look, we've got to --my goal is to have us reduce our use of fuel in transportation by 2-million barrels a day. Let's get up to 40 miles a gallon. We can do it with the technology we have today, but we've got to explore -- we've got to use our technology and innovation. We've got to invest public money in creating all sorts of new ways to power our society that are clean and efficient and ours. If we do it right, we can clean up the environment, make us stronger in the world, and create hundreds of thousands of new jobs in new energy industries. Yes, I would!" Congressman Dennis Kucinich: "An office to develop unconventional approaches to energy? Look, I'm an unconventional candidate! [Audience laughter and applause] So, the question is, 'How?' The United States has a tremendous capacity within the National Aeronautics and Space Administration to do just this. I have Glenn Research Center in my district and I am co-chair of what is called the Aerospace Caucus of the United States Congress -- of the House of Representatives. And, I think that NASA has this incredible potential to develop new energy technologies. And that's where we ought to do it. We have the ability to do it right now and I would like to do it though the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Thank you." Senator John Edwards: "Before I answer this question I want these two [turning to Lieberman and Kucinich] to tell me what the definition of 'cold fusion' to 'zero point' is! [Audience laughter]. Yeah, I got a feeling listening to those answers they don't have any idea what it is! [Dennis Kucinich gets up and whispers something to Senator Edwards] Yes, of course. The answer is 'Yes,' I would support an office that worked on alternative sources of energy. That's the answer to the question." This entire exchange was audio- and video-recorded by Dr. Mallove. Several news organizations were present, which recorded the entire forum. Now, perhaps other presidential candidates will be motivated to look into the matter of New Energy, which New Energy Foundation believes is of overarching importance in economic, environmental, geopolitical, health-promoting, and scientific implications. Extensive information about New Energy and how the government-academic complex has treated it may be found on the New Energy Foundation web site and its associated links. - End of Press Release - From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 15:42:59 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA06335; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:41:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:41:43 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:42:44 -0500 Subject: THREE Presidential Candidates Say "Yes" to US DOE or NASA Office of Unconventional Energy From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA06306 Resent-Message-ID: <"v2tBT2.0.xY1.tmp__"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52777 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PRESS RELEASE (Friday, January 9, 2004): FROM: Dr. Eugene F. Mallove President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation) Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 www.infinite-energy.com editor@infinite-energy.com 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 THREE Presidential Candidates Say "Yes" to Proposed US DOE or NASA Office of Unconventional Energy CONCORD, New Hampshire: At a public forum for presidential candidates in Concord, New Hampshire, which was held at Temple Beth Jacob on the evening of January 8th, all three Democratic Party presidential candidates who attended ‹ Senator John Edwards, Senator Joseph Lieberman, and Congressman Dennis Kucinich - said "Yes" to a proposal by New Energy Foundation (NEF) to establish an Office of Unconventional Energy within the U.S. Department of Energy, or, alternately, within NASA. Their responses came in the form of answers to a question submitted by NEF President Dr. Eugene Mallove. The question was posed to the three candidates by forum moderator Rabbi Richard Klein, following an earlier exchange by the candidates on more general questions about foreign policy and energy and environmental policy. The forum lasted 90 minutes. A transcript of the question that was asked and the three candidate responses appears below. But first some background about the question: New Energy Foundation is a non-profit, non-partisan organization, which is dedicated to evaluating, publishing, and funding scientific research on experimental evidence and theories for sources of energy that have not received adequate or appropriate review by the scientific establishment. Among these are such New Energy forms as: low-energy nuclear reactions (a.k.a. "cold fusion"), vacuum energy, "zero point" energy, "hydrino" physics, and other experimentally motivated revisions of or extensions to modern physics. NEF publishes the scientific and popular journal, Infinite Energy: New Energy, New Science, New Technology. The question asked by Dr. Mallove was posed in a manner designed to bring the issue of NEW ENERGY into the public arena, from which it has been inappropriately absent from pronouncements by presidential candidates (with several exceptions) as far back as Bill Clinton in January 1992, also in Concord, NH. Therefore the question was posed in a way that might be more congenial to the candidates, who were gathered in Concord only a few weeks before the New Hampshire Presidential Primary. It is obvious that the question of New Energy will affect not only energy and the environment but also human health. So we begin by way of an analogy with energy: Within NIH (the National Institutes of Health) there is an Office of Alternative Medicine, the OAM, which evaluates medical treatments that are not deemed viable by conventional scientific theory, but which in many cases appear to work nonetheless ‹ such as acupuncture and some aspects of homeopathy. The OAM investigates controversial new methodologies that may work in concert with traditional medicine to promote human health. So, the question arises: Should we as a society do the same for frontier ideas in energy that are languishing due to official neglect and antagonism? The QUESTION asked by Rabbi Klein to the three candidates on January 8, 2004, after their answers to more general questions about energy and the environment: "I am going to ask for a 30-second follow-up. A very specific related question -- you can talk about alternative energy: Would you support an office within the United States Department of Energy to evaluate what might be called ³unconventional energy² sources ‹ NOT merely renewable sources such as wind power ‹ but such things as ³cold fusion² or so-called "zero-point" or vacuum energy? Thirty seconds! RESPONSES: Senator Joseph Lieberman: "I'll be real quick on this. The first detailed policy statement I made in this campaign was what I called a Declaration -- an American Declaration of Energy Independence. John spoke to it very eloquently. Look, we've got to --my goal is to have us reduce our use of fuel in transportation by 2-million barrels a day. Let's get up to 40 miles a gallon. We can do it with the technology we have today, but we've got to explore -- we've got to use our technology and innovation. We've got to invest public money in creating all sorts of new ways to power our society that are clean and efficient and ours. If we do it right, we can clean up the environment, make us stronger in the world, and create hundreds of thousands of new jobs in new energy industries. Yes, I would!" Congressman Dennis Kucinich: "An office to develop unconventional approaches to energy? Look, I'm an unconventional candidate! [Audience laughter and applause] So, the question is, 'How?' The United States has a tremendous capacity within the National Aeronautics and Space Administration to do just this. I have Glenn Research Center in my district and I am co-chair of what is called the Aerospace Caucus of the United States Congress -- of the House of Representatives. And, I think that NASA has this incredible potential to develop new energy technologies. And that's where we ought to do it. We have the ability to do it right now and I would like to do it though the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Thank you." Senator John Edwards: "Before I answer this question I want these two [turning to Lieberman and Kucinich] to tell me what the definition of 'cold fusion' to 'zero point' is! [Audience laughter]. Yeah, I got a feeling listening to those answers they don't have any idea what it is! [Dennis Kucinich gets up and whispers something to Senator Edwards] Yes, of course. The answer is 'Yes,' I would support an office that worked on alternative sources of energy. That's the answer to the question." This entire exchange was audio- and video-recorded by Dr. Mallove. Several news organizations were present, which recorded the entire forum. Now, perhaps other presidential candidates will be motivated to look into the matter of New Energy, which New Energy Foundation believes is of overarching importance in economic, environmental, geopolitical, health-promoting, and scientific implications. Extensive information about New Energy and how the government-academic complex has treated it may be found on the New Energy Foundation web site and its associated links. - End of Press Release - From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 16:23:03 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA09474; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:21:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:21:14 -0800 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:20:08 -0500 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: THREE Presidential Candidates Say "Yes" to Proposed US DOE or NASA Office o Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Message-ID: <200401101920_MC3-1-657C-3198@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA09424 Resent-Message-ID: <"IfR2d2.0.wJ2.wR9001"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52778 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well done Gene! Lets hope that these politicians stick to their pre-election promises after they get elected. I am very cynical these days, so I won't hold my breath. Norman Horwood (Still lurking) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 18:30:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA28441; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:29:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:29:35 -0800 Message-ID: <4000B59D.F90BCF7E@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:31:57 -0800 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: THREE Presidential Candidates Say "Yes" to Proposed USDOE or NASA Office o References: <200401101920_MC3-1-657C-3198@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"stc5w1.0.Ly6.FKB001"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52779 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene, it is obvious that none of the candidates understood the reality of the question you asked. Like all politicians they agreed to anything that made them look agreeable without having to pay a price. The price would come later if and when they suggested such an idea to their advisors who would tell them that the suggested energy sources are unproved and would, if real, compete with established energy sources that are funding their campaigns. Politicians break more serious promises without any harm to themselves. Therefore, these statements mean absolutely nothing. The only thing that will have an effect on the future of LENR is the discovery of how to increase the effect to levels that are useful for commercial application. Meanwhile we are waiting for the younger generation to learn about CF while the skeptics die off or become bored with the issue. Time is on our side, but politicians are not, i.e. not until oil goes to $100/b. Ed Norman Horwood wrote: > Well done Gene! > > Lets hope that these politicians stick to their pre-election promises after > they get elected. I am very cynical these days, so I won't hold my breath. > > Norman Horwood > > (Still lurking) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 21:11:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA05823; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:10:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:10:23 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:11:28 -0500 Subject: Re: THREE Presidential Candidates Say "Yes" to Proposed USDOE or NASA Office o From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4000B59D.F90BCF7E@ix.netcom.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3A1cx.0.xQ1.-gD001"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52780 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/10/04 9:31 PM, "Edmund Storms" wrote: > Gene, it is obvious that none of the candidates understood the reality of the > question you asked. Like all politicians they agreed to anything that made > them look agreeable without having to pay a price. Indeed, I agree. >The price would come later > if and when they suggested such an idea to their advisors who would tell them > that the suggested energy sources are unproved and would, if real, compete > with established energy sources that are funding their campaigns. Politicians > break more serious promises without any harm to themselves. Therefore, these > statements mean absolutely nothing. They mean only that there is an audit trail to statements of assent that went no further -- for the sake of history. Also, others may be successful in bringing up the question again and again in larger forums - referencing perhaps the statements of these candidates. > The only thing that will have an effect > on the future of LENR is the discovery of how to increase the effect to levels > that are useful for commercial application. Mitch Swartz seems to be doing a very good job of increasing the magnitudes of the effects he is seeing. > Meanwhile we are waiting for the > younger generation to learn about CF while the skeptics die off or become > bored with the issue. They believe, incorrectly, that they have killed it off so they are not saying very much any longer. > Time is on our side, but politicians are not, i.e. not > until oil goes to $100/b. Or until a truly new energy source appears in robust form and they will then jump on the bandwagon to support it -- and, above all, to tax it. > > Ed Gene > > > Norman Horwood wrote: > >> Well done Gene! >> >> Lets hope that these politicians stick to their pre-election promises after >> they get elected. I am very cynical these days, so I won't hold my breath. Please, Norman, indeed do not starve your self of oxygen.. Gene >> >> Norman Horwood >> >> (Still lurking) > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 18:21:33 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA22152; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:14:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:14:51 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <151.29156e43.2d34ae76@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:14:14 EST Subject: What do we make of Gardner Watts? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_151.29156e43.2d34ae76_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: <"mK5cr2.0.3Q5.RIr001"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52781 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A --part1_151.29156e43.2d34ae76_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gardner Watts Limited - Thermal Energy Cell (TEC) Frank Znidarsic --part1_151.29156e43.2d34ae76_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gardner Watts Limited - Thermal Energy Cell (TEC)


Frank Znidarsic --part1_151.29156e43.2d34ae76_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 16:48:19 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA26043; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:46:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:46:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:46:36 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: THE ONION: Wrights conquer sky In-Reply-To: <151.29156e43.2d34ae76@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"OVJqN1.0.hM6.oBU101"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52782 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.theonion.com/lib/pdf.php?type=ia&img_id=2025 Especially see "Rail-Road Scientists Say Kitty Hawk Flying Apparatus A Hoax" (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 17:33:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA30457; Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:31:50 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040114173842.044155f8@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:39:21 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: THE ONION: Wrights conquer sky In-Reply-To: References: <151.29156e43.2d34ae76@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ep5TJ3.0.rR7.5sU101"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52783 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill: I *knew* those flying machines were a hoax !!! Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 08:29:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01302; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:20:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:20:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <042601c3db83$60a79520$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <151.29156e43.2d34ae76@aol.com> Subject: Re: What do we make of Gardner Watts? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:19:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id IAA01216 Resent-Message-ID: <"ptrqq3.0.GK.rsh101"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52784 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank Z writes, "What do we make of Gardner Watts?" Cervantes said it best four hundred years ago... the translation being something like, " I begin to smell a rat".... >From the website: "Gardner Watts' HEC Process uses... conditions which allow the cell to operate at a much lower than normal 'decomposition voltage'... In small scale independent bench tests by a University this factor was measured at times 29." OK... if you don't see the problem there (as well as many other totally irrational claims made on this write-up) then open your wallet, as little I can say will help. Yes, it is true that Faradaic limitations can arguably be breached at higher voltages (plasma conditions) or at higher temperatures... and even at STP, they can be breached somewhat ... but whoa...not by a factor of 29 times... no way. This definitely smacks of a similar con-game which was attempted by a pseudo-company last year (curiously with a similar sounding name): GWE... now facing criminal indictment for securities fraud, thanks to the quick response of forums like this (and the tireless effort of John Lichtenstein): http://www.greaterthings.com/News/FreeEnergy/Directory/Hydrogen/Genesis/fraud/NJ_attorneygeneral/PR031209.htm My suspicion is that the two outfits GWE and GWL are related. For those interested in really important water-splitting research, see the new paper by Mizuno on the LENR-CANR website: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf Mizuno, T., T. Akimoto, and T. Ohmori. "Confirmation of anomalous hydrogen generation by plasma electrolysis." in 4th Meeting of Japan CF Research Society. 2003. Iwate, Japan: Iwate University. This paper has many implications indicating that "excess heat" may not always be related (technically) to any kind of LENR at all, at least as that is usually defined, but may be "supra-chemical"... but then again, perhaps the evolving definition of CANR could be broadened to include higher energy reactions in which the nucleus of any reactant is not altered permanently (permanently being the key word) ... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 10:30:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA04751; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:24:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:24:51 -0800 Message-ID: <40082CF8.A17BC160@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:27:04 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 16, 2004] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Wj4zQ2.0.8A1.pn2201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52785 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 16, 2004 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:56:03 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: whatsnew@bobpark.org To: Akira Kawasaki WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 16 Jan 04 Washington, DC 1. NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION: NORTH KOREA POSTS "BEWARE-OF-DOG" SIGN. What does a developing country that can't feed its people have to do to get the attention of the world's superpower? A year ago North Korea pulled out of the 1970 Non-Proliferation Treaty and began flaunting its nuclear weapons program. Preemptive strike? Nah, the U.S. was busy looking for Iraq's nonexistent weapons. But that's winding down (WN 9 Jan 04), so North Korea must have decided it was time to try again. An unofficial delegation of U.S. nuclear weapons experts, including Sig Hecker, former Los Alamos Lab director, was invited to view North Korea's "nuclear deterrent" against a U.S. attack. They were shown a substance the North Koreans said was plutonium. There was no way to verify the stuff was really plutonium. An empty cooling pond was said to have contained 8,000 spent fuel rods before being reprocessed. We still don't know. Is there really a dog, or just a sign? 2. SPACE EXPLORATION: PRESIDENT BUSH PROMISES THE MOON AND MARS. Why now? Well, it's not "now." To pay for all this, the program depends on money made available by phasing out the shuttle over a period of six years, and completing our commitments to the ISS. After decades of telling the public that these two programs are essential to space exploration, we discover they're just standing in the way. None of this will happen on Bush's watch. Whether he's reelected or not, the big bills won't start coming in until Bush is safely out of office. In fact, it's unlikely to happen at all. Even as the President spoke, the Spirit rover on Mars appeared to be working perfectly. It doesn't break for lunch or complain about the cold nights. Long before a human could land on Mars, there won't be much left to explore. Politicians tend to underestimate the public. An AP poll found 57 percent favor having robots explore the moon and Mars; 38 percent said humans. 3. PEER REVIEW: A NEW WAY TO BLOCK ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS. Citing President Bush's commitment to "sound science," a new administration proposal would block the adoption of new federal regulations unless the science on which they're based passes a centralized peer review overseen by the White House Office of Management and Budget. Under the current system, individual agencies typically invite outside experts to review the accuracy of the science. The proposed change would lay out specific rules regarding who can sit on peer review panels. Participation of academic experts who have received agency grants is explicitly discouraged, but there is no equivalent warning against experts with connections to industry. Moreover, the executive branch has final say as to whether the peer review process was acceptable. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:49:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA32760; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:45:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:45:50 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040116144142.01cb2b90@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:45:35 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Park's latest astounding comment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"wyzD6.0.m_7.jz3201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52786 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert Park never ceases to amaze. He wrote: > complain about the cold nights. Long before a human could land > on Mars, there won't be much left to explore. Geologists have been working here on earth for quite a long time. Does he think they have "nothing much left" to explore here? Mind you, I think that Bush's space initiative is misdirected, unimaginative, and 30 years out of date. They should be looking at building a space elevator, as the first priority. They have to lower the cost of access to space by orders of magnitude. An elevator would do that even more effectively than a CF engine. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 12:32:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA07635; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:30:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:30:02 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c3dc6c$3dcb2cd0$5c45ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040116144142.01cb2b90@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Park's latest astounding comment Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:06:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"tPeMx2.0.Ft1.9d4201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52787 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > Robert Park never ceases to amaze. He wrote: > > > complain about the cold nights. Long before a human could land > > on Mars, there won't be much left to explore. > > Geologists have been working here on earth for quite a long time. Does he > think they have "nothing much left" to explore here? > > > Mind you, I think that Bush's space initiative is misdirected, > unimaginative, and 30 years out of date. They should be looking at building > a space elevator, as the first priority. They have to lower the cost of > access to space by orders of magnitude. An elevator would do that even more > effectively than a CF engine. > > - Jed A small detail. What about the materials for the up-down ties? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 12:46:20 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17523; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:41:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:41:41 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040116153855.01cb3030@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:41:26 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Space elevator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vnHY21.0.QH4.4o4201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52788 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > > They should be looking at > building > > a space elevator, as the first priority. They have to lower the cost of > > access to space by orders of magnitude. An elevator would do that even > more > > effectively than a CF engine. . . . > > A small detail. What about the materials for the up-down ties? See: http://www.isr.us/SEHome.asp?m=1 And especially this nifty animation: http://www.isr.us/SEanimation.asp - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 12:46:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA18759; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:43:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:43:26 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [67.74.32.19] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Park's latest astounding comment Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:42:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jan 2004 20:42:53.0162 (UTC) FILETIME=[5035BCA0:01C3DC71] Resent-Message-ID: <"GQbCf1.0.0b4.kp4201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52789 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keep in mind that ambient temperature Ultraconductors will likely be in wire form before then end of 2006, and might prove useful in a space elevator application. The current density is higher than any known superconductor from what has been learned thus far. Mark Chairman & CEO Magnetic Power Inc. Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. >From: "Mike Carrell" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Park's latest astounding comment >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:06:28 -0500 > >Jed wrote: > > > > Robert Park never ceases to amaze. He wrote: > > > > > complain about the cold nights. Long before a human could land > > > on Mars, there won't be much left to explore. > > > > Geologists have been working here on earth for quite a long time. Does >he > > think they have "nothing much left" to explore here? > > > > > > Mind you, I think that Bush's space initiative is misdirected, > > unimaginative, and 30 years out of date. They should be looking at >building > > a space elevator, as the first priority. They have to lower the cost of > > access to space by orders of magnitude. An elevator would do that even >more > > effectively than a CF engine. > > > > - Jed > >A small detail. What about the materials for the up-down ties? > >Mike Carrell > > _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 13:38:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA24197; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:33:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:33:11 -0800 Message-ID: <40085928.66A9246B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:35:37 -0800 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Park's latest astounding comment References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040116144142.01cb2b90@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VxS6E.0.1w5.NY5201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52790 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bush, as he did with respect to the Iraq war, plans to go to Mars on the cheap. He proposes to give NASA $1B and have them take the other estimated $11B out of present programs. Meanwhile, he wants the space shuttle replaced and for NASA to stop cutting corners to avoid get people killed. He is always a dollar short and a day late in his approach to policy. However, he knows how to get reelected. As for Park, I think he is correct. By the time we go to Mars, in 2100, we will know most of the important things about Mars. The driving force for this effort is a search for life. Before long we will realize that life has found us, at which point Mars will be irrelevant. As for the space elevator, one very serious problem exists, i.e. the voltage gradient between space and the earth. Not only is this large enough to overwhelm all known materials, but such a short-circuit would have unknown consequences. I suggest, if we want to explore such imaginative technologies, we discuss antigravity. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Robert Park never ceases to amaze. He wrote: > > > complain about the cold nights. Long before a human could land > > on Mars, there won't be much left to explore. > > Geologists have been working here on earth for quite a long time. Does he > think they have "nothing much left" to explore here? > > Mind you, I think that Bush's space initiative is misdirected, > unimaginative, and 30 years out of date. They should be looking at building > a space elevator, as the first priority. They have to lower the cost of > access to space by orders of magnitude. An elevator would do that even more > effectively than a CF engine. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:19:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA27898; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:16:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:16:39 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Park's latest astounding comment Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:15:53 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <51og00ljvgq99fg0cflas7s1ap5bn23n1a@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA27703 Resent-Message-ID: <"t1dMS2.0.Rp6.5B6201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52791 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:42:52 -0800: Hi Mark, [snip] >Keep in mind that ambient temperature Ultraconductors will likely be in wire >form before then end of 2006, and might prove useful in a space elevator >application. The current density is higher than any known superconductor >from what has been learned thus far. > >Mark > >Chairman & CEO >Magnetic Power Inc. >Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. Since you are at the bleeding edge of this technology, perhaps you could be a little more forthcoming, e.g. what is the longest superconductor you have been able to create so far? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:43:07 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA13250; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:39:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:39:26 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040116173056.01cb3220@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:39:15 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Space elevator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Iav9L2.0.wE3.TW6201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52792 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > how to get reelected. As for Park, I think he is correct. By the time we go > to Mars, in 2100, we will know most of the important things about Mars. I do not think a thousand generations of geologists could discover "most" of the "important things" about Mars. By the time they finished, there would be more interesting, important open questions than there are now. Research is subtractive; it creates more work than it accomplishes. > As for the space elevator, one very serious problem exists, i.e. the voltage > gradient between space and the earth. Not only is this large enough to > overwhelm all known materials, but such a short-circuit would have unknown > consequences. If this turns out to be a showstopper then of course the project will have to be abandoned, however some experts think it will not be a problem. See: http://www.isr.us/SEScienceFAQs.asp#5 QUOTES: "Won't the ribbon "short out" the atmosphere? There is a voltage difference of several hundred kilovolts between the Earth's surface and the ionosphere. The (presumably conducting) ribbon would at least provide a path to reduce the global potential and might even short it out, forcing the ribbon to carry a large current. Would this effect the construction of the highway? How might a shorting out of the global circuit effect the Earth's meteorology? It is correct that there are substantial electrical potential in Earth's atmosphere. However, doing a quantitative analysis of the situation, we found the currents that will flow through the ribbon will be minimal due to the resistance of the ribbon, cross-sectional area of the ribbon, the distance the potentials are separated by, and the poor coupling between the ionosphere and the ribbon. . . . Will the ribbon produce an electrical current? The last space shuttle-tether experiment, which unspooled about 12 miles of cable, generated thousands of volts of electrical potential and kilowatts of power, burned through the insulation of the cable, and generated a tremendous explosive arc of electricity, that snapped the tether. Now imagine a 60,000-mile-long cable and its electrical-generating capacity and you begin to see the disastrous potential. There are several aspects to this question. An electrical current might be produced in several ways: 1) due to the electrical properties of Earth's atmosphere, 2) collection of the space plasma and 3) due to the movement of the ribbon relative to the natural magnetic fields near Earth. . . ." > I suggest, if we want to explore such imaginative technologies, > we discuss antigravity. I do not know of any confirmed evidence antigravity is even possible, whereas the space elevator would not require any radical new breakthroughs or newly discovered laws of physics. CF, of course, may require laws of physics, but evidence for it has been confirmed. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 15:17:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA09807; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:14:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:14:36 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040116181305.01cb3210@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:14:05 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Tholos! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"epUaz2.0.BP2.S17201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52793 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I like it! See: http://uk.gsmbox.com/news/mobile_news/all/97623.gsmbox http://www.reason.com/0401/artifact.shtml - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 13:40:10 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA17121; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:38:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:38:39 -0800 Message-ID: <4009ABE9.1C8D0132@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:40:57 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Farnsworth, TV, Fusion, Fusor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q5X2Z1.0.OB4.UjQ201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52794 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 17, 2004 Vortex, It has been several weeks since I finished reading "The Boy Who Invented Television" by Paul Schatzkin, published 2002 by TeamCom Books ISBN: 1-929701-30-1. This followed on a brief conversation here about Philo Taylor Farnsworth and his claim to fame as having invented television. It turns out that, yes indeed, he can claim to have invented a complete television system from the image sensors, circuitry, tube designs, transmission, reception, to a final sound and moving imagery on a Farnsworth display receiver, a.k.a. a TV set. There are also-rans such as Sarnoff, Zworykin, Baird, or Alexanderson who have been improperly credited with all of the television development as we know it today. These people were also pioneers of television but Farnsworth deserves first credit. And I do not say this, but the events of history, as chronicled by Schatzkin, says this. And I tend to agree along with all the people who believed and supported Philo T. Farnsworths's genius and drive during his lifetime. Regrettably there were too few of those with sufficient resources or foresight for Farnsworth to properly do everything he wanted to do. Even so, and I did not know or start to read this book for this, Farnsworth went into the field of Fusion in the 1960's after departing from further development of television. It seems that, as his television system was developed in the nineteen twenties and onward, and as he designed the specialized vacuum tubes needed to meet his television circuitry needs, he became aware of different physical forces affecting his tubes' performance. His self taught studies led him to be conversant with those elements of Physics that he was able to draw inspiration from talking with Einstein about his new found ideas in fusion. Einstein died in 1955 before Farnsworth was able to present him with his finalized ideas and calculations on a fusion process which he named Fusor. Farnsworth himself gave up after 1968 just as his patent initial applications for the Fusor was granted. He died in 1971. There were three models of the Fusor made while Farnsworth was still with ITT. And they all worked. There was a "dessert cart" Fusor model that Farnsworth's "protégé" Bob Hirsch (doctorate in nuclear physics/electrostatic fusion) made which was demonstrated running in 1967 before the Atomic Energy Commission in his effort to obtain federal funding for further research in the Fusor model of fusion along with the favoured multi-billion dollar TOKAMAK. The Fusor research would have taken a small fraction of the TOKAMAK budget but when it came to where that funding was going to come out of, the Fusor effort was dead --- sound familiar? Closed minds and entrenched bureaucracies create protective interests and closed wallets. In pursuit of Science yet. The Fusor model of fusion is based on "Inertial Electrostatic Containment" based on electrostatic rather than electromagnetic containment such as the TOKAMAK or the ITER. The Fusor design is allegedly simple and elegant enough that it is open to "garage" type experimentation. Indeed there is now a web site, <>. which is an open site for experimentation and discussion. Experimenters will be trying to generate neutrons as they attempt to duplicate the Fusor effect of deuterium and or tritium fusion. Depending on how the experiments are designed and executed, it can be dangerous stuff, I think. While browsing the 'Net, I visited Scott Little's EarthTech.org. It's been a few years since he dropped from Vortex's discussions and efforts in cold fusion. I was surprised that he attempted to replicate the Fusor effect and was successful in April 1999! The positive results was very small and the effort was not pursued further. However, considering all the negative effects he found with all the cold fusion replication efforts, I would say his positive results with the Fusor is TREMENDOUS indeed. Scott admitted that this was the first time EarthTech had achieved Positive results. -ak- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 15:24:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA24794; Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:24:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:24:08 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c3dd50$e4c95db0$127bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <4009ABE9.1C8D0132@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Farnsworth, TV, Fusion, Fusor Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:23:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"nJT_P.0.J36.NGS201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52795 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira wrote: > Jan. 17, 2004 > > Vortex, > > It has been several weeks since I finished reading "The Boy Who Invented > Television" by Paul Schatzkin, published 2002 by TeamCom Books ISBN: > 1-929701-30-1. > > This followed on a brief conversation here about Philo Taylor Farnsworth > and his claim to fame as having invented television. It turns out that, > yes indeed, he can claim to have invented a complete television system > from the image sensors, circuitry, tube designs, transmission, > reception, to a final sound and moving imagery on a Farnsworth display > receiver, a.k.a. a TV set. There are also-rans such as Sarnoff, > Zworykin, Baird, or Alexanderson who have been improperly credited with > all of the television development as we know it today. Farnsworth cannot be enough celebrated for all that he accomplished, starting from some radio magazines in the attic of a remote farmhouse. The ordinary buisnessmen who supporte him along the way are also deserving of praise. There is a well deserved statue of him in the Congress building, in one of the lower hallways. But the above sentence is a caricature of a complex situation. Farnsworth indeed developed and built a working electronically scanned television system which was on the air in the 1930s in Philadelphia with help from Philco, I believe. His patents were challenged by RCA across the river in Camden NJ. WW2 intervened and while he won the patent suits, the patents had expired by the end of WW2 when commercial TV deployment became possible. He did not get deserved royalties. Farnsworth's weakness, and it would have been fatal to any real development of commercial television, was his image dissector camera tube. At one end was a photocathode, which emitted an 'electron image' corresponding to the impinging light image. That electron image was scanned past a pinhole aperture by deflection coils. Electrons passing through the hole were converted to an output signal. There was ****no storage****. Thus the set lighting had to be extremely intense, baking the actors. Across the river Zworykin was developing his Iconoscope. The optical target was a mica plate on which were dispersed fine particles of a photoemitter. Impinging light caused continuous accumulation of charge until an area was swept by the scanning beam, discharging the area and creating an output signal pulse. Because the Iconoscope ****had storage**** it's sensitivity was much higher and studio lighting was tolerable, as well as sunny outdoor shots. RCA later developed thre Image Orthicon, which incorporated a photomultiplier stucture, again increasing the sensitivity. Farnsworth might have done so had events worked more in his favor, but the fact is that he did not, and the low sensitivity would not encourage commercial television. It is also noteworthy that RCA's semiconductor division produced the best solid state imager of its time. Light impinged on a very thin substrate whose reverse side had all the scanning circuitry, so that the entire receptor surface was phtosensitive. During WW2, RCA proceeded with the development and design of a commercial TV receiver for home use. Before WW2, three-tube radios were common, and five-tube radios a premium. RCA's TV set had 30 tubes. Sarnoff well realized that TV set had to be stable, perform well, and be reliable, or the public would not buy it. He also realized that RCA could not develop the market alone. The design was licensed to everyone who wanted to pay the fee, and RCA plants turned out TVs under other brand names until competitors could get going on their own. Muntz marketed cheapie TVs by finding out how many tubes could be removed before performance became awful. RCA through its then ownership of the NBC red and blue networks also produced TV programs to stimulate sales of TVs. It is very expensive to make chickens and eggs at the same time. Thus it is quite proper to credit Sarnoff with the development of "TV as we know it today", the whole commercial and technical edifice, and Zworykin for key inventions. There is a plaque in the lobby of the Sarnoff Corporation in Princeton (formerly David Sarnoff Research Center, where I spent 12 years) from industry leaders so honoring him. Farsnworth would not have made it by himself, nor with the help of Philco, which was not an enduring realtionship. The second phase of that saga was the development of compatable color television, universal throughout the world today, a bet-your-company tour de force that only RCA could have pulled off at the time. After that, RCA in a sense lost is way and began to stumble; what do you do for an encore? The CF saga has some bitter echoes of all this. There is a technology visible, but no Sarnoff with technical and commercial vision to move the technology forward. it must be said also, that Sarnoff was much a product of his time. It is not clear that he could have accomplished so much in other circumstances. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 09:05:39 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA24848; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:03:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:03:51 -0800 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:03:44 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Park's latest astounding comment Message-ID: <20040118170344.GD53973@genius.tao.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser , vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040116144142.01cb2b90@pop.mindspring.com> <40085928.66A9246B@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jCrbxBqMcLqd4mOl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40085928.66A9246B@ix.netcom.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Resent-Message-ID: <"MhY0l2.0.C46.tnh201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52796 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --jCrbxBqMcLqd4mOl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 16, 2004 at 01:35:37PM -0800, Edmund Storms wrote: =20 > As for the space elevator, one very serious problem exists, i.e. the volt= age > gradient between space and the earth. Not only is this large enough to > overwhelm all known materials, but such a short-circuit would have unknown > consequences. I suggest, if we want to explore such imaginative technolo= gies, > we discuss antigravity. >=20 What is the potential difference between ground level and the edge of the atmosphere? Joe --=20 Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk) http://www.josef-k.net/ FreeBSD (cvs meister, admin and hacker) http://www.uk.FreeBSD.org/ Physics Particle Theory (student) http://www.pact.cpes.sussex.ac.uk/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D An eclectic mix of fact an= d theory. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --jCrbxBqMcLqd4mOl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkAKvG8ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYS7gCdEFMjdHh3cwgWIF5KO9d489l3 tXcAn1q7iZSzmeA5Hu/LuQXew2sHtDTh =OV6G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jCrbxBqMcLqd4mOl-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 11:57:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA17483; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:56:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:56:33 -0800 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:39:09 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Farnsworth, TV, Fusion, Fusor Message-ID: <20040118193909.GC54521@genius.tao.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser , vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <4009ABE9.1C8D0132@ix.netcom.com> <001b01c3dd50$e4c95db0$127bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zCKi3GIZzVBPywwA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001b01c3dd50$e4c95db0$127bccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Resent-Message-ID: <"bmu3x3.0.7H4.nJk201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52797 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --zCKi3GIZzVBPywwA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 17, 2004 at 06:23:08PM -0500, Mike Carrell wrote: >=20 > Thus it is quite proper to credit Sarnoff with the development of "TV as = we > know it today", the whole commercial and technical edifice, and Zworykin = for > key inventions. There is a plaque in the lobby of the Sarnoff Corporation= in > Princeton (formerly David Sarnoff Research Center, where I spent 12 years) > from industry leaders so honoring him. Farsnworth would not have made it = by > himself, nor with the help of Philco, which was not an enduring > realtionship. >=20 For interest do you know how RCA's development influenced development in the UK? Was it in parallel, or did the UK licenced their designs? Joe --=20 Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk) http://www.josef-k.net/ FreeBSD (cvs meister, admin and hacker) http://www.uk.FreeBSD.org/ Physics Particle Theory (student) http://www.pact.cpes.sussex.ac.uk/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D An eclectic mix of fact an= d theory. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --zCKi3GIZzVBPywwA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkAK4N0ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZvPACdECsr3KzCAsyhkC9eDbDlf/4g cUYAoMi9dw0Fxw6obAP5a9lTEgClqEvb =0iC7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zCKi3GIZzVBPywwA-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 18:13:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA02921; Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:06:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:06:16 -0800 Message-ID: <400B3B1C.8701EB7B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:04:12 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Farnsworth, TV, Fusion, Fusor References: <4009ABE9.1C8D0132@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ABAYl3.0.Tj.Okp201"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52798 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 18, 2004 Vortex, Hi Mike, you wrote: >. Also that the Fusor was replicated at EarthTech in 1999. From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <4009ABE9.1C8D0132@ix.netcom.com> <400B3B1C.8701EB7B@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Farnsworth, TV, Fusion, Fusor Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:36:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"qw-xF.0.i-6.Io5301"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52799 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Joseph Karthouser asked about influence of RCA's work on TV in the UK. I don't know, as I was working in other areas. Certainly the TV developments of the 30's did not proceed in a vacuum, and efforts of some kind were going forth in the UK and on the continent. The standards are different, related to the mains power frequencies in different countries, and different numbers of scan lines. this didn't matter much when movies were taken from film in stead of tape. When videotape came into use in the 50's and 60's, then the different scan standards presented problems. Some responses to Akira's comments: > Jan. 18, 2004 > > Vortex, > > Hi Mike, you wrote: > > > Farnsworth left Philco after a difficult period with conservative Philco > who essentially was looking for counterbalancing patents against RCA but > was not much into research costs or management. It did cause Farnsworth > to relocate his laboratory to Philadelphia from San Francisco. > > The sticky point was that Zworykin applied for a television patent in > 1923 while Farnsworth applied for one in 1927. However, Zworykin's > application was for a non functioning device. Evidently RCA continued to > renew the patent application with modifications along the way > periodically until the patent was awarded in 1938 with a 1923 date. > Farnsworth's patent application of 1927 described a functioning device. I was not aware of the earlier Zworykin application. Certainly Sarnoff played hardball with patents. In the 20's he acquired a collection of essential patents from many sources to protect the 'radio music box' idea. Apparently Sarnoff was the one who had the concept of the inexpensive receiver everyone could have and the broadcast network to provide programs for the boxes. This also led to RCA's aquisition of the Victor Talking Machine Company and its facilities in Camden NJ. Now his music box handled live and recorded programs. The late Samuel Lemelson also played hardball with patents and left a $500 million fortune without actually building anything. He was expert at anticipating technical trends, writing applications, delaying their issue as the technology developed, and then suing the manufacturers for infringement. Top three patent holders in order are Edison, Lemelson, and Land. Of these, only Land never built an industry. I had occasion once to review a Lemelson patent which was not functional in its original form, but major corporations were held hostage by it and capitulated. RCA's licensing tactics were challenged successfully by Zenith, who forced changes in RCA's licensing structure. At one time RCA derived $100 million a year from royalties. I heard a talk by the head of RCA licensing operations, whose job it was to talk CEOs of major corporations in Japan and elsewhere to maintain premium licensing arrangements, even though many of the patents had expired. These arrangements enabled access to the laboratories and tours of the manufacturing plants with cameras in hand. Engineers were encouraged to write disclosures and honorariums were paid for patents filed. I got some 20 patents in this atmosphere, most of no commercial value. > > At Sarnoff's orders, Zworykin paid a 1930 three day visit to > Farnsworth's laboratory in San Francisco and bought a kinescope tube to > take to his own laboratory. He was also shown an "Image Dissector Tube", > the forerunner if all image capture tubes such as the "Iconoscope" and > the "Image Orthicon". Zworykin is widely quoted as saying at the time, > "I wish I had invented that". Later, Sarnoff paid a brief visit to the > San Francisco laboratory himself, offering a low ball price to buy > Farnsworth out. Not surprising, the Image Dissector is a brilliant invention. Some versions of it may still be used for specialized purposes. > > Although very much loath to pay royalties ("we collect royalties, > not pay them"), RCA could not avoid but come to licensing and > royalty agreements with Farnsworth during the last few years of the > patents' life. The patents ran out in 1947. > During the postwar period, RCA did run interference with Farnsworth > on their obtaining manufacturing supplies while their factories > struggled to convert from a war economy to a civilian one manufacturing > radios and television sets. It resulted in ITT buying up Farnsworth's > operations. > By history, Farnsworth was not paid deserved royalties deliberately. > > I feel that after the 1930 visit by Zworykin, the development of > television became more of a matter of having enough money for > engineering development and business politics. In this race, Farnsworth > lost. Yes, he lost. But having enough money engineering, development, business politics, and creating the networks, producing the programs, and building the receivers cheaply was an essential, not trivial, and not "evil" part of the picture. Thus "TV as we know it" is very much a positive aspect of Sarnoff, as "PCs as we know them" is of Gates and Microsoft. > There is another bit of history included somewhere else about how FM, > as conceived by Armstrong, was set aside and not developed during his > lifetime association with RCA nor paid regular royalties. He > committed suicide and Sarnoff is quoted as saying "I did not kill him". The other story is in the book "Empire of the Air", dealing with DeForest, Armstrong, and Sarnoff. Armstrong is associated with three major circuit developments; superregeneration, superheterodyne, and FM. The latter two are still with us. Armstrong's FM was developed with some help from RCA in the use of some facilities. Before WW2, there was a small network of FM stations on the east coast which depended on receiving the signals by radio from a source station and rebroadcasting on another frequency. Armstrong's patents stipulated first clipping the signal from the antenna to remove all amplitude modulation noise, and then 'discriminating, measuring the carried frequency deviation, which carried the information. After WW2, when TV channels were being allocated, the FCC reassigned the channel used by Armstrong's FM network, wiping it out in a stroke. If this was at the behest of Sarnoff, there is no evidence of it. The TV standard used amplitude modulation for the video, and FM for the audio. Someone at RCA invented a simple "ratio detector" circuit which combined the amplitude modulation insensitivity of Armstrong's clipper with the discriminator function. This walked completely around Armstrong's patents. Armstong's patents and claims were too narrow and were evaded. I heard from an RCA colleague that Zenith, then battling RCA on license issues, did license the Armstrong FM patents for their receivers, but did not fare well in Armstrong's hands. I have no details. In the hardball world of patents, if you do not structure your claims correctly, and others invent their way around you, then tough. In the DeForest story, he is credited with the invention of the Audion, the first vacuum tube amplifier, which enabled all else. But it is a variation on the Edison effect, and Edison never pursued it. DeForest stumbled on the effect before the electron was discovered to give explanation to what was happening. With that understanding, design and development proceeded rapidly [as will CF when the effect is understood]. Many hobbyists experimented with circuits using DeForest's Audion. As businesses grew, DeForest attempted to claim a part of every circuit that used the Audion. Such claims were denied. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 15:08:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA16960; Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:05:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:05:50 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040119175024.01cb26b8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:05:43 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Farnsworth, TV, Fusion, Fusor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JDgAa.0.y84.DB6301"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52800 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > The other story is in the book "Empire of the Air", dealing with DeForest, > Armstrong, and Sarnoff. . . . This book has some huge errors about the development of Radar and its use in WWII. I do not recall the details, but it raised a red flag in my mind. I do not know much about the history of radio, so I cannot judge, but these mistakes made me wonder if the rest of the books is reliable. On the other hand, many of the stories in the book about Armstrong, Sarnoff and the other important people are corroborated by other sources, so they are probably okay. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 16:36:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA01943; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:32:10 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120190935.01cb26d8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:32:03 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Movie review, "Pearl Earring" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"WUv8T1.0.HU.9YS301"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52801 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a movie about the painter Vermeer (1632-1675). See: http://www.girlwithapearlearringmovie.com/ It is very slow paced, like a Japanese movie. Nothing much happens, and at least one review describes it as "emotionally stifling." I agree. (Actually, that's the point, I think.) Putting the story aside, if you would like to learn a whole lot about Renaissance painting techniques, such as how they mixed paint from raw materials, how they stretched canvas, did underpainting, and used a camera obscura, you must see this movie. Also, it is the most startlingly realistic movie portrayal of 17th century urban living conditions I have ever seen. I suppose they must have filmed it in a real city, and a real house. Watching it, I felt like I was in a time machine. The only other movie I can think of with this kind of rigorously realistic staging of 17th century conditions is the "The Seven Samurai" (Kurosawa, 1954). A recent movie, "The Last Samurai" should probably win some kind of award for least convincing full-length movie portrayal of Japan. For one thing, you can tell at a glance it was not filmed in Japan. The landscape and flora are quite different. For another, in villages in premodern Japan, people grew lots and LOTS of rice, but I did not see any. I do hope people someday invent time machines. Not the kind you travel in. That must surely be impossible, because of the "changing the past" paradox, if for no other reason. But time-viewers might must just be possible, I guess. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 18:56:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA07126; Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:54:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:54:28 -0800 Message-ID: <001701c3dfc9$d7b093c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040120190935.01cb26d8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Movie review, "Pearl Earring" Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:54:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA07090 Resent-Message-ID: <"NJkQC2.0.El1.ZdU301"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52802 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes, > I do hope people someday invent time machines.... Yes... and it makes such a cracking good premise for a potentially riveting adventure, in print at least (maybe because we think that we know how it 'should' end, but realize that it could easily have been very different, with who-knows-what consequences, down the road). Perhaps that is why the movie "Timeline" was so anticipated (by me, at least)... but ultimately so disappointing. It was based on Michael Crichton's 1999 best-selling page-turner where a group of archeologists time-travel and get trapped in 14th century feudal France during the hundred years war, a fascinating period in history. A surprisingly good read on paper, the movie version quickly deteriorates into a messy contrived adaptation that isn't nearly as intriguing as the novel. Who forgot to let Michael Crichton in on the fact that the screenplay was being converted into a farce? Too bad... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 12:03:40 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA02256; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:59:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:59:25 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040123144918.01cb2918@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:55:39 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC: These two people are in charge of U.S. voting machines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"a4ETa2.0.8Z.SqN401"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52803 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is an eye-opening chapter of an on-line book: http://thoughtcrimes.org/bbv/bbv_chapter-6.pdf It turns out that two rather shady, unelected, unappointed people are more or less in charge of all U.S. voting machines, and neither of them will come to the phone. They both stumbled into the business, you might say. One ran a used computer store that failed, and the other likes motorcycles. As Dave Barry says, I am not making this up. Anyone who understands computers and telecommunications should be raising hell with the government, and writing letters to the editor about this, BEFORE the next election. Other shady people and convicted criminals are involved. See also Paul Krugman in today's New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/23/opinion/23KRUG.html QUOTE: Computer experts say that software at Diebold and other manufacturers is full of security flaws, which would easily allow an insider to rig an election. But the people at voting machine companies wouldn't do that, would they? Let's ask Jeffrey Dean, a programmer who was senior vice president of a voting machine company, Global Election Systems, before Diebold acquired it in 2002. Bev Harris, author of "Black Box Voting" (www.blackboxvoting.com), told The A.P. that Mr. Dean, before taking that job, spent time in a Washington correctional facility for stealing money and tampering with computer files. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 14:00:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA18738; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:58:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:58:53 -0800 Message-ID: <401199AC.86410CE7@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:01:16 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 23, 2004] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wAd1O.0.ea4.TaP401"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52804 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 23, 2004 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:05:36 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: whatsnew@bobpark.org To: Akira Kawasaki WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 23 Jan 04 Washington, DC 1. SPACE PRIORITIES: GUESS WHAT PROGRAM NASA DECIDED TO ABANDON? President Bush directed NASA to reallocate $11B of its resources over the next five years to a program to send humans back to the moon and on to Mars. It should be a no-brainer. They've got this humongous, leaky, space turkey called the International Space Station. ISS was supposed to keep eight astronauts busy doing bogus science experiments, like finding out if the scent of a rose is different when it blooms in zero gravity (WN 7 Feb 04). With the ISS crew down to two, they're too busy trying to stay alive to do even bogus science. But the President says we have a commitment to finish building the ISS before we can scrap it. So instead, Sean O'Keefe announced the termination of maintenance on the Hubble Space Telescope, thus dooming it to an early death. 2. REPROGRAMMING ISS: LONG-TERM EFFECT OF SPACE TRAVEL ON HUMANS. There isn't much you can do with a space station. The President says it will become a space-medicine laboratory to prepare for the return of humans to the moon and on to Mars. Hmmm, that's exactly what his father wanted to use the station for (WN 12 Jul 91). The ISS is inside Earth's magnetosphere, so it can't study space-radiation effects, which is the real show stopper. That leaves osteoporosis. Let's see: it will take at least 12 years to complete our commitment to the ISS. Calcium loss is monitored by a daily urine analysis, typically requiring about 30ml. For a full 8 person crew that adds up to more than one thousand liters. Awesome, we're talking $10M just to launch the water into orbit that will then be processed into urine. We have already been analyzing urine samples collected in space for over 30 years. 3. NUCLEAR WEAPONS: LOTS OF "BEWARE-OF-DOG" SIGNS - BUT FEW DOGS. "The first liar," they say in Texas, "hasn't got a chance." All around the world, petty tyrants keep their hands under the table and try to look like they're holding a weapon. Sig Hecker, the former head of Los Alamos Lab who visited North Korea's nuclear facilities (WN 16 Jan 04), briefed a Senate Committee Wednesday. He is unconvinced that they have the bomb. Curiously, North Korea denies it has a uranium enrichment program as the U.S. charges. Instead, they claim to have extracted plutonium from spent fuel rods, but nothing is known of its isotopic composition, if indeed it is plutonium. A Pu bomb is far more difficult to build than a U bomb and there is nothing to indicate they can do it. But even as North Korea brandishes weapons it doesn't have, Libya, which had only recently declared it had a nuclear program, has now announced its program is being dismantled in an effort to have sanctions lifted from the 1988 downing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Scotland. The chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency, who toured the Libyan sites, says there wasn't much to dismantle. Libya, it now appears, was nowhere near large-scale enrichment. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 18:16:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA19646; Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:14:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:14:38 -0800 Message-ID: <4011A251.1040203@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:38:09 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Cesium Beam Standards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JQ-Zc3.0.wo4.DKT401"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52805 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As the list seems to be sleeping now, Current atomic clocks have a stability of one in 10^12 (Agilent 5071A $60,000) for commercial applications and as good as one in 10^15 for laboratory applications. This article on GaTech research shows how quantum entanglement could add three decades to this stability: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/23jan_entangled.htm?list43177 Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 08:55:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA08439; Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:49:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:49:26 -0800 Message-ID: <003401c3e299$f754a860$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: grande boum or petit boum-boum's ? Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 08:48:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C3E256.D48A3CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"7zvuH2.0.p32.M8g401"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52806 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C3E256.D48A3CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does cosmological orthodoxy demand the existence of free-energy (at = least of the variety that may be tapped from Dirac's sea)? Maybe. How does 'space' itself expand otherwise? I don't personally = believe in the orthodox view anyway...but instead favor the Arp = implications of a pulsating universe, nevertheless ... For those who "want" to believe in a Big Bang singularity - a big-boum, = as the French like to say, an event that actually transpired at a = certain time and place, then the orthodox theory says that space itself = has been expanding ever since that instant in time ~15 billion years = ago. If it has expanded at near lightspeed there must exist a hidden = ongoing energy source, one could surmise. At any rate, a question that is seldom addressed is this. Did some = residual mass remain after the singularity? In a 3-space universe... one = that is not hollow, we must assume that some of the original matter = remained fixed, and some of it accelerated at a lesser rate to fill the = void... at least some experts maintain this view, and if they are = correct, some residual mass should be found clumped at "ground zero". = Again this does not seem any less likely than 'expanding space' itself = or so-called 'inflation.' In fact, all these ideas seem on the surface = like crude illogical kludges concocted without any evidence whatsoever = to explain redshift, a phenomena that Arp says is mostly intrinsic... = but that is another story. So just where in the sky would be the locus of a putative big bang if = Arp is wrong and the event actually transpired in a universe of only 3 = spatial dimensions + time? Believe it or not, there is a candidate for = an incredible residual mass ... discovered just last month by the = SDSS... some would say it is a fair fraction as massive as the rest of = the visible universe... depending, of course, on what assumptions you = plug-in to explain the incredible extent of the lensing effect. http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/dark_matter_light_quasar.html "Sloan Digital Sky Survey scientists have discovered a gravitationally = lensed quasar with the largest separation ever recorded, and, contrary = to expectations, found that four of the most distant, most luminous = quasars known are not gravitationally lensed..." More than 80 = gravitationally lensed quasars have been discovered since the first = example was found in 1979... but what makes this latest finding so = dramatic is that the separation between the four images is twice as = large as that of any previously known gravitationally lensed quasar. = Until the discovery of this quadruple lens quasar, the largest = separation known in a gravitationally lensed quasar was 7 arcseconds. = The quasar found by the SDSS team lies in the constellation Leo Minor; = it consists of four images separated by 14.62 arcseconds." END of quote Whoa... lets just say the implications of that could be staggering - the = jury is still out (or rather, hasn't even been seated yet)... and I = wouldn't want to be the first to say that that a lensing effect that = large could only point to one thing... Regards, Jones Beene ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C3E256.D48A3CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does cosmological orthodoxy demand the existence of free-energy (at = least=20 of the variety that may be tapped from Dirac's sea)?
 
Maybe. How does 'space' itself expand otherwise? I don't personally = believe=20 in the orthodox view anyway...but instead favor the Arp implications of = a=20 pulsating universe, nevertheless ...
 
For those who "want" to believe in a Big Bang singularity - a=20 big-boum, as the French like to say, an event that actually transpired = at a=20 certain time and place, then the orthodox theory says that space itself = has been=20 expanding ever since that instant in time ~15 billion years ago. If it = has=20 expanded at near lightspeed there must exist a hidden ongoing = energy=20 source, one could surmise.
 
At any rate, a question that is seldom addressed is this. Did = some=20 residual mass remain after the singularity? In a 3-space universe... one = that is=20 not hollow, we must assume that some of the original matter remained = fixed, and=20 some of it accelerated at a lesser rate to fill the void... at least = some=20 experts maintain this view, and if they are correct, some residual mass = should=20 be found clumped at "ground zero". Again this does not seem any less = likely than=20 'expanding space' itself or so-called 'inflation.' In fact, all these = ideas seem=20 on the surface like crude illogical kludges concocted without any = evidence=20 whatsoever to explain redshift, a phenomena that Arp says is mostly = intrinsic...=20 but that is another story.
 
So just where in the sky would be the locus of a putative = big=20 bang if Arp is wrong and the event actually transpired in a universe of = only 3=20 spatial dimensions + time? Believe it or not, there is a candidate for = an=20 incredible residual mass ... discovered just last month by the = SDSS... some=20 would say it is a fair fraction as massive as the rest of the = visible=20 universe... depending, of course, on what assumptions you plug-in to = explain the=20 incredible extent of the lensing effect.
 
http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/dark_matter_light_quasar.ht= ml
 
"Sloan Digital Sky Survey scientists have discovered a = gravitationally=20 lensed quasar with the largest separation ever recorded, and, contrary = to=20 expectations, found that four of the most distant, most luminous quasars = known=20 are not gravitationally lensed..." More than 80 gravitationally lensed = quasars=20 have been discovered since the first example was found in 1979... but = what makes=20 this latest finding so dramatic is that the separation between the four = images=20 is twice as large as that of any previously known gravitationally lensed = quasar.=20 Until the discovery of this quadruple lens quasar, the largest = separation known=20 in a gravitationally lensed quasar was 7 arcseconds. The quasar found by = the=20 SDSS team lies in the constellation Leo Minor; it consists of four = images=20 separated by 14.62 arcseconds." END of quote
 
Whoa... lets just say the implications of that could be = staggering -=20 the jury is still out (or rather, hasn't even been seated yet)... and I = wouldn't=20 want to be the first to say that that a lensing effect that large could = only=20 point to one thing...
 
Regards,
 
Jones Beene
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C3E256.D48A3CC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 16:05:12 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA19873; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:01:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:01:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <401458DE.1000607@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 19:01:34 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: I've Seen This Before Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"81rbd1.0.Ts4.aZ5501"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52807 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/001/1P128287349EFF0000P2303L2M1.JPG< The smooth imprints are where the lander airbags smushed the soil. In north Georgia, under certain conditions, water will freeze inside the red clay. Ice crystals will form and lift up a layer of soil sometimes 2 to 3 inches. You can see the ice columns supporting the soil. When you step on this surface, a smooth footprint forms -- almost looking liquid (it probably is with the pressure of your foot instantaneously melting the crystals and forming smooth mud). Hey, are those Martian ruins upon yon hill? >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/001/1P128287349EFF0000P2303L2M1.JPG< From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 16:25:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA30352; Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:24:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:24:44 -0800 Message-ID: <40145CA7.5040300@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 19:17:43 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Yon Hill Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rwovO.0.9Q7.Cv5501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52808 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Correction: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/001/1N128285132EDN0000P1500R0M1.JPG From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 07:50:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA08925; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:44:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:44:31 -0800 Message-ID: <20040126154355.59327.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:43:55 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Yon Hill To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40145CA7.5040300@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"DK8SK3.0.PB2.VNJ501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52809 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Naw. zooming in, it looks like an exposed and weathered rock ridge. very weathered.... --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Correction: > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/001/1N128285132EDN0000P1500R0M1.JPG > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 09:54:50 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA28901; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:47:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:47:46 -0800 Message-ID: <4015528C.6070400@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:46:52 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yon Hill References: <20040126154355.59327.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040126154355.59327.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6-h4L2.0.S37.1BL501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52810 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: alexander hollins wrote: >Naw. zooming in, it looks like an exposed and >weathered rock ridge. very weathered.... > Not Marshenge? Awwww. . . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 12:52:59 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA08783; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:45:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:45:48 -0800 From: "John Schnurer" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Can anyone let me know Mitchell Schwartz's Address? Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:44:29 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040126204430.41704A6172@bw113.antioch-college.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ok9651.0.A92.ynN501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52811 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, Could anyone please let me know Mitchell Schwartz's address? My apology in advance if I messed up the name. Thanks, John Schnurer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 13:32:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA04877; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:25:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:25:53 -0800 Message-ID: <001201c3e451$f1cc7c60$c864a8c0@win98> From: "hamdix@iris" To: Cc: References: <20040126204430.41704A6172@bw113.antioch-college.edu> Subject: Re: Can anyone let me know Mitchell Schwartz's Address? Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:18:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"Anxka2.0.5C1.UNO501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52812 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It could be still "Mitchell Swartz" , as it was never changed. Regards, hamdi ucar ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: Sent: 26 January 2004 22:44 Subject: Can anyone let me know Mitchell Schwartz's Address? > Dear Vo, > > Could anyone please let me know Mitchell Schwartz's address? > > My apology in advance if I messed up the name. > > Thanks, > > John Schnurer > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 18:03:20 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA22252; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:58:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:58:06 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4015528C.6070400@rtpatlanta.com> References: <20040126154355.59327.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> <4015528C.6070400@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:01:50 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Yon Hill Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"RzHlh2.0.dR5.jMS501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52813 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - > >>Not Marshenge? Awwww. . . Yeah, I know ... but did you notice the tube-like fossils exposed on the rocks in the upper right? - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 18:21:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA03961; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:17:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:17:30 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Yon Hill Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:41:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"njuo4.0.mz.weS501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52814 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yeah, and did you catch that giant sentient cactus, Rick? You'd think that would have made the BBC world. K. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 9:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yon Hill Terry - > >>Not Marshenge? Awwww. . . Yeah, I know ... but did you notice the tube-like fossils exposed on the rocks in the upper right? - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 19:15:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA12220; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:12:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:12:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:16:38 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Yon Hill Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA12105 Resent-Message-ID: <"ueHmw2.0.t-2.mST501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52815 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith wrote: > >> Yeah, and did you catch that giant sentient cactus, Rick? >>You'd think that would have made the BBC world. Right, my keyboard didn't have *enough* coffee in it. Seriously, I can spot two features that are similar, and one of them 'jumps' a crack and continues on the next rock a little bit. Probably intrusions or pairs of parallel older cracks. Look worm-like. Sheesh the rocks might be igneous anyway - but those features are visible and I'm pretty sure they're not artifacts as they're larger than the jpeg blotches. I'll try to send a small clip through Vortex and see if the attachment doesn't get stripped off. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 19:39:33 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA30459; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:35:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:35:38 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:33:05 -0500 Subject: From Akronos: "Free Power Around-the-Clock" DVD From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ogsMP2.0.tR7.9oT501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52816 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends and Colleagues, AKRONOS Publishing has the pleasure of announcing the release of the following new video documentary, in DVD format: "Free Power Around-the Clock" For a detailed description and ordering information, see http://www.aetherometry.com/mediainfo/AM-02.html The documentary offers a step-by-step account of the work of Dr. Paulo Correa and Alexandra Correa at ABRI (2001-2004) to develop readily accessible, quiet, free, `round-the-clock alternative power generation systems based on modified Orgone Accumulators (HYBORACs), hybridized with black-coated Faraday cages. These HYBORACs are designed to optimally capture solar radiation, so as to function as sources of continuous (nonstop daytime and nighttime) thermal power capable of uninterruptedly driving Low Delta-T, Gamma Stirling Motors for 24 out of 24 hours. At its present stage, the HYBORAC technology is > 1.5x more efficient at capturing solar radiation than passive solar collector standards, and nearly 3x more efficient at outputting work-equivalent energy than photovoltaics. The research documented in this video has also been the subject of ABRI monographs AS2-25, AS2-26, and AS2-32. (see http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v4.html). Yours, Laura McFinlay Akronos Publishing From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 19:52:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA07741; Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:47:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:47:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:51:44 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: mars_worms images Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1136946979==_============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"q-sxo1.0.vu1.LzT501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52817 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1136946979==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To get to the main image on the Mars Rover site, go here: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/ And find the new stitched-up color "postcard" with the bedrock in the= upper-left corner. I'm sure just that corner of the rocks is a separate pic= in the set somewhere, or just get the large format version of the whole= thing (it's 14 meg - DSL/Cable recommended) image: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040126a/MERB_Sol1= _Postcard-B002R1.jpg If the above URL wraps in your window, make sure to paste it back together= in your browser address bar. I've tried to attach a small pic with the odd features highlighted. 28k= before binhex, the file is "mars_worms.jpg". And no, I don't think they're = sentient. - Rick --============_-1136946979==_============ Content-Id: Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="mars_worms.jpg" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="474B4F4E" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mars_worms.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAZABkAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQH/wAARCAB+APkDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF BgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEI I0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNk ZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLD xMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEAAwEBAQEBAQEB AQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSExBhJB UQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZH 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mars_worms images Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:36:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"_ZUh6.0.G_2.kCV501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52818 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, I'm looking at it. I presume you mean the other "left"... Those features look far away. Your "worms" would be rather large I suppose. Is that a whiff of spice I smell coming from the keyboard???? Muadib, we have worm-sign!! Hey, does NASA publish their terrain models on the web as well? It would be great fun to generate a VRML file and surf around the martian beach on my browser. It's exciting stuff, even without those sentient cactii (grin). You know, in a weird kind of way, I miss Mitchell Jones. K. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:52 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: mars_worms images To get to the main image on the Mars Rover site, go here: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/ And find the new stitched-up color "postcard" with the bedrock in the upper-left corner. I'm sure just that corner of the rocks is a separate pic in the set somewhere, or just get the large format version of the whole thing (it's 14 meg - DSL/Cable recommended) image: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040126a/MERB_Sol1 _Postcard-B002R1.jpg If the above URL wraps in your window, make sure to paste it back together in your browser address bar. I've tried to attach a small pic with the odd features highlighted. 28k before binhex, the file is "mars_worms.jpg". And no, I don't think they're sentient. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 00:15:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA12290; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:14:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:14:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 20:24:23 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: mars_worms images Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA12258 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zp3lr2.0.-_2.UtX501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52819 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith - >OK, I'm looking at it >I presume you mean the other "left"... Yup, I meant to say the *right* edge of the image, top row of rocks. >Those features look far away. Your "worms" would >be rather large I suppose. Is that a whiff of spice >I smell coming from the keyboard???? Muadib, we have worm-sign!! Just straight Peet's House Blend ( http://www.peets.com/ ) in the keyboard, without the spice. My eyes aren't glowing indigo yet, but I am getting port and starboard mixed up. My guess is the features are 2 or 3 inches in width. They're actually not that far away, and we zoom in on the image to see the features. I doubt they're really fossils, but they did grab my attention as possibly being features *in* the rock and not just superficial structures like cracks or erosion on the layer seams. I bet there are indeed fossils on Mars, but you'd need an electron microscope to see 'em - as I believe we already have - in meteorites. >Hey, does NASA publish their terrain models on the web as well? >It would be great fun to generate a VRML file and surf around >the martian beach on my browser. It's exciting stuff, even >without those sentient cactii (grin). You know, in a weird >kind of way, I miss Mitchell Jones. > >K. I think they might have something like that (VRML) somewhere, but I don't have the link. Maybe a site for one of the universities or labs. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 01:48:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA11572; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 01:46:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 01:46:30 -0800 From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: mars_worms images Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:59:11 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401271059.12115.knuke@sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <"bGYE51.0.lq2.sDZ501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52820 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ahoy There! I saw this the other day, and was interested in it myself. I have yet to install it, but will when I get some time. http://mars.telascience.org/ Knuke > > I think they might have something like that (VRML) somewhere, but I don't > have the link. Maybe a site for one of the universities or labs. > > - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 08:15:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00418; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:10:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:10:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <40166C01.1070706@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:47:45 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yon Hill References: <20040126154355.59327.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> <4015528C.6070400@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mxjuC3.0.R6.Lre501"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52821 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Terry - > > > >>>>Not Marshenge? Awwww. . . >>>> >>>> > >Yeah, I know ... but did you notice the tube-like fossils exposed on the rocks in the upper right? > Kewl! Have you read Dan Brown's "Deception Point"? Also, there seems to be a green hue on some of those stones . . . lichen? How about those Mars Express images from ESA! Mars LIVES! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 08:16:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00459; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:10:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:10:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <40166CC0.8070301@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:50:56 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: mars_worms images References: <200401271059.12115.knuke@sumosound.de> In-Reply-To: <200401271059.12115.knuke@sumosound.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WD2oT2.0._6.Sre501"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52822 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Huffman wrote: >Ahoy There! > >I saw this the other day, and was interested in it myself. I have yet to >install it, but will when I get some time. > >http://mars.telascience.org/ > Maestro. You need some serious processing capability and a bodacious video accelerator; but, then you can rove across the actual landscape on Mars. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 08:24:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA25626; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:19:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:19:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20040127151941.48194.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:19:41 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: mars_worms images To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"I2K183.0.KG6.d-e501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52823 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: that was one of the features i was referring to when i said weathered. thats a crack in the rock, from what source, i dunno, but the crack has been weathered to a rounded edge, and only one thing weathers like that. water, and large amounts of it. i'm sure there are exogeologists poring over the higher quality images, measuring, ect. dont expect an announcement about it for a month at least though. --- Rick Monteverde wrote: > To get to the main image on the Mars Rover site, go > here: > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/ > > And find the new stitched-up color "postcard" with > the bedrock in the upper-left corner. I'm sure just > that corner of the rocks is a separate pic in the > set somewhere, or just get the large format version > of the whole thing (it's 14 meg - DSL/Cable > recommended) image: > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040126a/MERB_Sol1_Postcard-B002R1.jpg > > If the above URL wraps in your window, make sure to > paste it back together in your browser address bar. > > I've tried to attach a small pic with the odd > features highlighted. 28k before binhex, the file is > "mars_worms.jpg". And no, I don't think they're > sentient. > > - Rick > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=mars_worms.jpg; x-mac-type=4A504547; x-mac-creator=474B4F4E __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 08:36:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04157; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:28:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:28:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20040127162742.46860.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:27:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: mars_worms images To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ZVx7M.0.u01.j6f501"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52824 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Rick Monteverde wrote: "My guess is the features are 2 or 3 inches in width....I bet there are indeed fossils on Mars, but you'd need an electron microscope to see 'em - as I believe we already have - in meteorites." Yes, back in Oct we threw out some wild and crazy ideas about nanobes having been seen in Martian meteorites... but I guess we forgot to mention, that with a lack of competition on Mars, unlike here... they would likely evolve unhindered into a larger self-similar form... kind of the proto-version of the infamous spice worms of Dune... fanned by the Cosmic Intelligence of a Zeitgeist solar breeze... Beam me up Scotty... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 09:49:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA30798; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:43:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:43:43 -0800 From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: mars_worms images Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:56:13 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200401271059.12115.knuke@sumosound.de> <40166CC0.8070301@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40166CC0.8070301@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401271856.13609.knuke@sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <"OdGZP2.0.vW7.DDg501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52825 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 27 January 2004 14:50, Terry Blanton wrote: > Maestro. > > You need some serious processing capability and a bodacious video > accelerator; but, then you can rove across the actual landscape on Mars. Actually, I read about this first on the Mandrake website. There were some comments from some users, one saying that it ran slower than mole asses, and another saying that it ran acceptably on his 400Mhz box. From the system requirements recommendations, my machine is well over the minimum, but well under the recommended. I will just have to try it, and find out if it is worth the hassle. What it does take though, is a serious whack out of your hard drive space - 500Mb!!! The website looks pretty cool, and I read through the manual this afternoon. It is an interesting looking program, and well worth investigating. Knuke From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 10:22:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA17626; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:14:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:14:44 -0800 Message-ID: <008b01c3e501$8e803240$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> From: "rebrady" To: References: <200401271059.12115.knuke@sumosound.de> <40166CC0.8070301@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: mars_worms images Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:14:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007D_01C3E4BE.656DCE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"zQZD-2.0.JJ4.Kgg501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52826 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C3E4BE.656DCE00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_007E_01C3E4BE.656DCE00" ------=_NextPart_001_007E_01C3E4BE.656DCE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone tell me what worm created this square hole in the middle of a = rock that the Sprit probe found on Mars? Bob Brady ------=_NextPart_001_007E_01C3E4BE.656DCE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anyone tell me what worm created this square hole in the middle = of a=20 rock that the Sprit probe found on Mars?
 
 
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Bob Brady
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yn/Fzov+DRf8R7tH8J+3/J0qj4H7ehJq/wDizU3/AFHr/wBaYPae4+MfZ0oT4fz6dq//AIC1P/IH /WtfbHVupFJ/wJxv/hvbl/8AebzftZacJ/8Amk3/AB09Jr7+yh/5rx/9XF6//9k= ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C3E4BE.656DCE00-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 12:05:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA12971; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:56:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:56:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:57:03 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: cold fusion book Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"KMlPn3.0.YA3.dHh501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52827 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My neighbor David Moon, whose articles speculating about the mechanisms behind cold fusion, has just published a book. Carbon Dating, Cold Fusion, and a Curve Ball speculates that induced cavitation in water could make objects appear older than they are http://www.trafford.com/03-2241.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 12:16:49 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA31307; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:10:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:10:30 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: mars_worms images Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:34:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200401271059.12115.knuke@sumosound.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"sl1sg.0._e7.rMi501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52828 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well shiver me timbers! That's just what I'm talking about, Knuke. By the way, I have all the debug crap active on my browser for development purposes, and when I visit the site you posted I got _two_ errors ( missing paren and calendar variable undefined ). I guess this gives us some insight into the software problems NASA's been having with the rover, huh? Somewhere on Mars there is a tiny dialog box displaying the words "communication error: hit any key to retry" and no-one around to hit the any key.... I'll look at the software later in the week and tell you how it goes. Thanks for the link! K. PS: Rick writes: >My guess is the features are 2 or 3 inches in width. Really? That stuff looks far away, although it's awfully hard to tell from using photoshop and this picture as source material. I'd guess more like 6" to a foot? and. >I bet there are indeed fossils on Mars, but you'd need an electron microscope to see 'em Why not? I'm guessing that life in the universe is as common as dirt, if you've got liquid water for a long enough time and a few other prerequisites then it just happens. Sadly, from the looks of the place, we're about 1/4 million years too late to say hello. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Huffman [mailto:knuke@sumosound.de] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 4:59 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: mars_worms images Ahoy There! I saw this the other day, and was interested in it myself. I have yet to install it, but will when I get some time. http://mars.telascience.org/ Knuke > > I think they might have something like that (VRML) somewhere, but I don't > have the link. Maybe a site for one of the universities or labs. > > - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 12:25:32 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA04220; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:18:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:18:13 -0800 Message-ID: <20040127191730.25970.qmail@web80409.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:17:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: mars_worms images To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <008b01c3e501$8e803240$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"P4TxG2.0.s11.4Ui501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52829 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- rebrady wrote: "Can anyone tell me what worm created this square hole in the middle of a rock that the Sprit probe found on Mars?" >From the slight-evidence-infinitized department ANS: A curious round worm? Well, a round one that just learned Pythagoras' theorem and wished to verify: Which fits better: a round worm in a square hole, or a square worm in a round hole? So WOW... boys and girls, this is pretty amazing, huh? Not just proof of life on Mars but proof of intellignet life ;-) Jones BTW However, this result is true only in spatial dimensions n < 9, i.e. the unit n-hypercube fits more closely into the n-hypersphere than vice versa (Singmaster; Wells 1986, p. 74). This can be demonstrated by noting that the formulas for the content V(n) of the unit n-ball, the content of its circumscribed hypercube, and the content of its inscribed hypercube give a ratio crosses 1 at a fractal n~8.137 ... So now we can surmise something else about Martian worms. They live in world of less than 9 dimensions... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 12:32:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA11549; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:26:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:26:06 -0800 Message-ID: <4016C93C.2030204@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:25:32 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: mars_worms images References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080000010309050406040906" Resent-Message-ID: <"m90GN2.0.Mq2.Ubi501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52830 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080000010309050406040906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Nagel wrote: >PS: Rick writes: > > >>My guess is the features are 2 or 3 inches in width. >> >> > >Really? That stuff looks far away, although it's awfully >hard to tell from using photoshop and this picture as >source material. I'd guess more like 6" to a foot? > The diameter of the crater is approximately 60 ft. with the rover offset toward the NE. Distance to the outcropping has been estimated at 17 feet. --------------080000010309050406040906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Nagel wrote:

PS: Rick writes:
  
My guess is the features are 2 or 3 inches in width.
    

Really? That stuff looks far away, although it's awfully
hard to tell from using photoshop and this picture as
source material. I'd guess more like 6" to a foot?

The diameter of the crater is approximately 60 ft. with the rover offset toward the NE.  Distance to the outcropping has been estimated at 17 feet.
--------------080000010309050406040906-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 12:42:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA19339; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:37:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:37:44 -0800 Message-ID: <20040127193645.82791.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:36:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: cold fusion book To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"cWjhQ2.0.7k4.Omi501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52831 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- thomas malloy wrote: > My neighbor David Moon, whose articles speculating about the mechanisms behind cold fusion, has just published a book.... Whoa... This guy has lost either lost his grip... or else he has the kind of wry tongue-in-cheek off-beat humor that is much appreciated here on vortex... (appreciated by some of us, at least... unfortunatley, this looks like a case of the former rather than the later). >From the writeup: "In Carbon Dating, Cold Fusion, and a Curve Ball, the author postulates interfering nuclear (element) changes occurring in the Earth, and proposes that extensive element transmutations occurred from intense hydrodynamics during the Flood of Noah (Genesis 6-8). If so, it is conceivable much alteration of radioactive elements took place, rendering unreliable the radioactive dating results in most analyses done today." OTOH if Moon is really tossing out the old curve ball (in a metaphorical sense) I'd say that we should invite his comments on Vo... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 13:56:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA04638; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:50:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:50:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040127193645.82791.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040127193645.82791.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:50:26 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: cold fusion book Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"72D1b2.0.M81.Nqj501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52832 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >--- thomas malloy wrote: >> My neighbor David Moon, whose articles speculating >about the mechanisms behind cold fusion, has just >published a book.... and Jones Beene replied: > >Whoa... This guy has lost either lost his grip... or >else he has the kind of wry tongue-in-cheek off-beat >humor that is much appreciated here on vortex... >(appreciated by some of us, at least... unfortunatley, >this looks like a case of the former rather than the >later). > >>From the writeup: "In Carbon Dating, Cold Fusion, and >a Curve Ball, the author postulates interfering >nuclear (element) changes occurring in the Earth, and >proposes that extensive element transmutations >occurred from intense hydrodynamics during the Flood >of Noah (Genesis 6-8). If so, it is conceivable much >alteration of radioactive elements took place, >rendering unreliable the radioactive dating results in >most analyses done today." > >OTOH if Moon is really tossing out the old curve ball >(in a metaphorical sense) I'd say that we should >invite his comments on Vo... I'll mention this to David, but he's not an email guy. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 14:06:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA11505; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:00:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:00:38 -0800 Message-ID: <20040127220005.3331.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:00:05 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: mars_worms images To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20040127191730.25970.qmail@web80409.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"W09WC2.0.jp2.5-j501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52833 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: IF the whole were perfectly square, which even a cursory glance says its not... --- Jones Beene wrote: > > --- rebrady wrote: > > "Can anyone tell me what worm created this square > hole > in the middle of a rock that the Sprit probe found > on > Mars?" > > > From the slight-evidence-infinitized department > > ANS: A curious round worm? > > Well, a round one that just learned Pythagoras' > theorem and wished to verify: Which fits better: a > round worm in a square hole, or a square worm in a > round hole? > > So WOW... boys and girls, this is pretty amazing, > huh? > > Not just proof of life on Mars but proof of > intellignet life ;-) > > Jones > > BTW However, this result is true only in spatial > dimensions n < 9, i.e. the unit n-hypercube fits > more > closely into the n-hypersphere than vice versa > (Singmaster; Wells 1986, p. 74). This can be > demonstrated by noting that the formulas for the > content V(n) of the unit n-ball, the content of its > circumscribed hypercube, and the content of its > inscribed hypercube give a ratio crosses 1 at a > fractal n~8.137 ... > > So now we can surmise something else about Martian > worms. They live in world of less than 9 > dimensions... > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 14:49:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA07257; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:44:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:44:48 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: mars_worms images Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:09:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20040127191730.25970.qmail@web80409.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"Ma6PX1.0.um1.Tdk501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52834 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A square worm???? Or perhaps, a cubical inclusion that's stuck in the other half of the rock this broke off of.... It's an interesting feature. Can you send us a link to the rest of the photo? K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 2:18 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: mars_worms images --- rebrady wrote: "Can anyone tell me what worm created this square hole in the middle of a rock that the Sprit probe found on Mars?" >From the slight-evidence-infinitized department ANS: A curious round worm? Well, a round one that just learned Pythagoras' theorem and wished to verify: Which fits better: a round worm in a square hole, or a square worm in a round hole? So WOW... boys and girls, this is pretty amazing, huh? Not just proof of life on Mars but proof of intellignet life ;-) Jones BTW However, this result is true only in spatial dimensions n < 9, i.e. the unit n-hypercube fits more closely into the n-hypersphere than vice versa (Singmaster; Wells 1986, p. 74). This can be demonstrated by noting that the formulas for the content V(n) of the unit n-ball, the content of its circumscribed hypercube, and the content of its inscribed hypercube give a ratio crosses 1 at a fractal n~8.137 ... So now we can surmise something else about Martian worms. They live in world of less than 9 dimensions... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 19:39:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA10046; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:36:27 -0800 Message-ID: <005e01c3e54f$f4ab7400$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> From: "rebrady" To: References: Subject: mars_worms images - Square Hole Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:36:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"DUz-f2.0.sS2.wuo501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52835 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel asked for the source of the picture of the rock with a square hole in it. It may be found as part of another rock picture at: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040119a.html Bob Brady From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 05:25:51 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA30213; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 05:24:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 05:24:18 -0800 Message-ID: <4017B7E6.7020305@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:23:50 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: mars_worms images - Square Hole References: <005e01c3e54f$f4ab7400$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> In-Reply-To: <005e01c3e54f$f4ab7400$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ydGuS2.0.zN7.1Wx501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52836 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: rebrady wrote: >Keith Nagel asked for the source of the picture of the rock with a square >hole in it. It may be found as part of another rock picture at: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040119a.html > It's also here: http://enterprisemission.com/images/Spirit/Slot-rock.jpg and here: http://enterprisemission.com/images/Spirit/slot-rock6-PanCam.jpg ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 07:19:09 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA28329; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 07:16:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 07:16:06 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: mars_worms images - Square Hole Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:23:39 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <005e01c3e54f$f4ab7400$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"_3Cmp2.0.Ww6.r8z501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52838 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: try this link: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040119a/P2543_Sol14_L4 56-A16R1.jpg The handprint is simple wind erosion I am certain. As for: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040127a/Sol3_mosa ic_left-B003R1.jpg Everyone knows that worms can't feed on bare limestone slabs like the ones in the pix. The degree of separation between the slabs has no connection to water or inter-stitial plant-life - we should all be aware that rocks separate naturally due to sand-particles accumulating between slabs. Probably purely natural erosion processes, nothing to do with life-forms whatsoever. And the other 'pillar-like' things in the rocks are probably just shale-slates pitched over on their sides, edge-on to the camera. No life ever existed there, proven beyond doubt. No shrubbery, no critters in sight. > -----Original Message----- > From: rebrady [mailto:rebrady@eskimo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 January 28 10:36 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: mars_worms images - Square Hole > > > Keith Nagel asked for the source of the picture of the rock with a square > hole in it. It may be found as part of another rock picture at: > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040119a.html > > Bob Brady > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 07:20:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA28147; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 07:15:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 07:15:58 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: mars_worms images - Square Hole Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:14:41 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <005e01c3e54f$f4ab7400$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"7Asd43.0.jt6.j8z501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52837 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: try this link: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040119a/P2543_Sol14_L4 56-A16R1.jpg The handprint is simple wind erosion I am certain. square holes: There is nothing worthy of the rover's time about a square hole normal to the cleanly sliced end of a rock that only appears to be faceted. As for: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040127a/Sol3_mosa ic_left-B003R1.jpg Everyone knows that worms can't feed on bare limestone slabs like the ones in the pix. The degree of separation between the slabs has no connection to water or inter-stitial plant-life - we should all be aware that rocks separate naturally due to sand-particles accumulating between slabs. Probably purely natural erosion processes, nothing to do with life-forms whatsoever. And the other 'pillar-like' things in the rocks are probably just shale-slates pitched over on their sides, edge-on to the camera. No life ever existed there, proven beyond doubt. limestone slabs: The fact that limestone appears to be the top layer in the pan scan should put a end to any thoughts about life-forms... No shrubbery, no critters in sight. > -----Original Message----- > From: rebrady [mailto:rebrady@eskimo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 January 28 10:36 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: mars_worms images - Square Hole > > > Keith Nagel asked for the source of the picture of the rock with a square > hole in it. It may be found as part of another rock picture at: > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040119a.html > > Bob Brady > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 08:36:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA25350; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:29:58 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: Mars Maestro software Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:54:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <005e01c3e54f$f4ab7400$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"ElqtH.0.2C6.6E-501"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52839 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. I downloaded the Maestro software last night, and after doing some testing on my own software ( or rather, finding bugs in adobe reader 6.0.0 ) installed maestro on the test box. It's a 166MHz P5 ( about as old as that rock in the picture ) so needless to say, I was expecting slow. What I wasn't expecting was java. That's what this application is written in. That's great news for the 5% non-MS OS users out there, but how many large applications have you seen written in Java? This is why. To its credit, the interface is the best I have seen for a java application. But the performance is terrible. I'd suggest a 1 GHz machine or greater for something approaching tolerable. I didn't notice a huge footprint on the hard drive, 100MB with all three mission updates installed. Maybe Knuke can add something here. I'll try it on a faster box if I have time today. It looked like great fun to play with, when you get tired of hallucinating over the square holed rock give it a try (wink). And go easy on the spice, remember that stuff makes your eyes blue ( or red, I forget ). K. -----Original Message----- From: rebrady [mailto:rebrady@eskimo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 10:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: mars_worms images - Square Hole Keith Nagel asked for the source of the picture of the rock with a square hole in it. It may be found as part of another rock picture at: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040119a.html Bob Brady From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 10:35:10 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA14064; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:31:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:31:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:35:40 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: mars_worms images - Square Hole Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA13967 Resent-Message-ID: <"CwQ5G.0.cR3.100601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52840 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Explorecraft wrote: >Everyone knows that worms can't feed on > bare limestone slabs like the ones in the pix. >The degree of separation between the slabs has no > connection to water or inter-stitial plant-life - > we should all be aware that rocks separate naturally > due to sand-particles accumulating between slabs. > Probably purely natural erosion processes, > nothing to do with life-forms whatsoever. Fossils of any shape or form can be created by either a creature's structure or its activities. Wormholes are a common type of fossil. You and I might be not know of any worms that feed on bare limestone, and though we'd consider it unlikely, there might be such a thing - bacteria and lichens that feed on bare limestone exist on earth. Anyway, that hole being discussed is in a volcanic rock in Gusev, and is almost certainly a gas bubble or small vent tube that got squashed a little bit - I see those all the time in lava around here. > And the other 'pillar-like' things in the rocks > are probably just shale-slates pitched over on their sides, > edge-on to the camera. I posted a pic showing apparent inclusions of some sort in the rocks in the mars-worm thread. I think I may have had it right - now comes something on that from the NASA press release: >>Also visible is a feature believed to be cross-bedding, >>in which the mineral layers lie at angles to the horizontal stack, >> which can form from cyclical patterns of sediments that build up, >>then partially erode away, then rebuild again. You also wrote: >No life ever existed there, proven beyond doubt. > >limestone slabs: >The fact that limestone appears to be the top layer in the > pan scan should put a end to any thoughts about life-forms... > >No shrubbery, no critters in sight. * You trollin' or just jokin'? - Nothing of the kind has been "proven" at all. We don't even know at this point if the rock is limestone (hope it is though). There are volcanic ash formations near my house that have some of the same features as seen in those photos and look very similar. Water-borne volcanic debris also makes sedimentary formations like those outcroppings. Nasa folks don't know what kind of rocks they are at this time, but the mini-TESS may give us the first clue even before the rover rolls off. * The fact that this or that rock layer is the "top layer" at that place and time says nothing at all to the possibility of life having existed. However limestone's existence alone would be near-proof of life in the past, since limestone is formed by water - and evidence exists that some (if not all?) limestone formations are mitigated by bacterial action. Travertine (fossilized hot spring stuff), marble, chalk, and some other minerals like the limestone formations in caves are now suspected of being formed exclusively by bacteria, and finding any of these minerals on mars would be spectacular. * No shrubbery or critters in sight in many earth deserts either. Don't you ever watch the nature channels? - or listen to old Eagles songs? Many of those deserts are teeming with life. Even in the harshest environments - cold, hot, dry, wet, frozen, harsh chemical, high pressure or even vacuum - bacterial fauna can exist and even be extensive in some cases. Extremeophiles rule. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 11:33:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA19175; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:29:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:29:48 -0800 Message-ID: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:28:58 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Wormsign Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Qa0mP3.0.Yh4.hs0601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52841 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Much better image here of Monteverde's fossil: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040128a/Sol3_Outcrop_Color-sol004-b-B004R1.jpg BTW, according to: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040128a.html This rock layer is only 4 inches tall! Your worm is kinda small, Rick. Nothing personal!! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 11:54:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA00596; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:49:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:49:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> References: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:53:56 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Wormsign Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA00472 Resent-Message-ID: <"cG4Bx3.0.89.T91601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52842 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - Are you sure it's in there? Although I see at least one similar inclusion-like structure in the image below, I scrubbed over it carefully with the first image open for comparison, trying to find that exact same set of rocks - and I can't. Like the scar that migrates from one side of Frodo's face to the other in "Return of the King", the folks tending the "Mars Mission" sound stage must have inadvertently moved the prop. Hey, get that thing back in here, somebody noticed! So where is it? That pano isn't complete yet. I guess the features are on the other side of the crater. As I recall the original was a nav cam image and not a pancam, so we should get it in better rez later. >Much better image here of Monteverde's fossil: > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040128a/Sol3_Outcrop_Color-sol004-b-B004R1.jpg > >BTW, according to: > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040128a.html > >This rock layer is only 4 inches tall! > >Your worm is kinda small, Rick. Nothing personal!! It ain't the size of the worm, it's the giggle in his wiggle. Or as Master Yoda said : "Size matters not". - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:32:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20606; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:27:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:27:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <40181A97.2010306@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:24:55 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wormsign References: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vafzP2.0.w15.Ui1601"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52843 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Terry - > >Are you sure it's in there? > As I approach the big 50 (not the island), I find I am sure of less and less. After pulling up your original post I see that the fossil I was looking at is different. Yes, they need to label their Marsrocks with Postit tags like they did on the Moonset. Okay okay okay (spoken in a Pesci-esque manner). You *did* save your red/green 3D glasses from Spy Kids 3, right. Then you can check out the kewl image here: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040127a.html (d/l the 6.7 Mb image . . . you need to be almost a meter from a 20 inch monitor to resolve the 3D effect.) You can tell that Opportunity can see over the ridge of the crater. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:39:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA28664; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:33:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:33:55 -0800 Message-ID: <40181228.2040405@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:48:56 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: cold fusion book References: <20040127193645.82791.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040127193645.82791.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tuwtB2.0.4_6.lo1601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52844 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > --- thomas malloy wrote: > >>My neighbor David Moon ... > >>From the writeup: "In Carbon Dating, Cold Fusion, and > a Curve Ball, the author postulates interfering > nuclear (element) changes occurring in the Earth, and > proposes that extensive element transmutations > occurred from intense hydrodynamics during the Flood > of Noah (Genesis 6-8). If so, it is conceivable much > alteration of radioactive elements took place, > rendering unreliable the radioactive dating results in > most analyses done today." Off hand this just sounds like another attempt to shoot down carbon dating in order to support the claim that the Earth is just 6000 years old. "Creation science", not "science". From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:44:49 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA32303; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:38:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:38:11 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Mars Maestro software Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:02:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"RsXtf2.0.cu7.os1601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52846 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, my landlord happened to be around, so we installed it on his 1.5GHZ 3/4Gig RAM workstation. ( my rent dollars at work ) The interface was not terribly friendly, but OK considering it's java. For example, I couldn't seem to change the size of the windows that opened in the viewer. And performance was still very marginal. Even with this powerhouse machine. Funny thing that. The software runs on all machines, but 90% of what's out there isn't powerful enough to run it. Letter of the law VS spirit of the law... Sad to say, it left me a little disappointed. The 3D part was way cheesy, rather psychedelic but not much more informative than simply looking at the pictures. By the way, the raw files seem to be some sort of VRML file, I wonder if I could just use them directly with my own viewer? Some smart geek out there ought to take the raw data and grind up some Quake ( or Doom ) levels with it. Then we'd be cooking with oil. How about it Linux geeks? Where's all that DIY goodness I've heard so much about (grin). Then we could not only explore mars, but blow it up with the BFG9000. Seriously, I'd think the slashdot crowd would have been all over that idea by now. K. -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel@gis.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 11:54 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Mars Maestro software Hi All. I downloaded the Maestro software last night, and after doing some testing on my own software ( or rather, finding bugs in adobe reader 6.0.0 ) installed maestro on the test box. It's a 166MHz P5 ( about as old as that rock in the picture ) so needless to say, I was expecting slow. What I wasn't expecting was java. That's what this application is written in. That's great news for the 5% non-MS OS users out there, but how many large applications have you seen written in Java? This is why. To its credit, the interface is the best I have seen for a java application. But the performance is terrible. I'd suggest a 1 GHz machine or greater for something approaching tolerable. I didn't notice a huge footprint on the hard drive, 100MB with all three mission updates installed. Maybe Knuke can add something here. I'll try it on a faster box if I have time today. It looked like great fun to play with, when you get tired of hallucinating over the square holed rock give it a try (wink). And go easy on the spice, remember that stuff makes your eyes blue ( or red, I forget ). K. -----Original Message----- From: rebrady [mailto:rebrady@eskimo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 10:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: mars_worms images - Square Hole Keith Nagel asked for the source of the picture of the rock with a square hole in it. It may be found as part of another rock picture at: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040119a.html Bob Brady From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:44:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA31662; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:37:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:37:18 -0800 Message-ID: <40181D57.7070903@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:36:39 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wormsign References: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> <40181A97.2010306@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40181A97.2010306@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KenXq3.0.dk7.zr1601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52845 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > You *did* save your red/green 3D glasses from Spy Kids 3, right. Geeze, he's colorblind too. Actually, I also have my red/blue glasses from the "Twin Peaks Dyslexic Psychiatrist Look Alike Contest". From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:55:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA09682; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:51:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:51:16 -0800 Message-ID: <20040128194904.15998.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:49:04 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Wormsign To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"nSQkd2.0.9N2.332601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52847 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hmm, the set of lined rocks on the right remind me of a few different petrified tree trunks ive seen in situ. --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Much better image here of Monteverde's fossil: > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040128a/Sol3_Outcrop_Color-sol004-b-B004R1.jpg > > BTW, according to: > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040128a.html > > This rock layer is only 4 inches tall! > > Your worm is kinda small, Rick. Nothing personal!! > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 13:07:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA18405; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:04:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:04:06 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40181A97.2010306@rtpatlanta.com> References: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> <40181A97.2010306@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:08:16 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Wormsign Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"0RFch3.0.CV4.5F2601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52849 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - Oops, it was a PanCam view. Here it is below, and I still can't find it on that stitched color panorama. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/003/1P128459742EFF0200P2215L2M1.JPG ... >You *did* save your red/green 3D glasses from Spy Kids 3, right. Then you can check out the kewl image here: > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040127a.html I don't do kid flicks - my lofty intellect requires more gratifying fare. Mine are from "Freddy's Dead - The Final Nightmare". :) - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 13:08:19 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA16978; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:01:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:01:46 -0800 Message-ID: <401822E5.7070903@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:00:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wormsign References: <20040128194904.15998.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040128194904.15998.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ftu0d2.0.A94.wC2601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52848 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: alexander hollins wrote: >hmm, the set of lined rocks on the right remind me of >a few different petrified tree trunks ive seen in >situ. > I thought maybe a fossil of a triceratop. :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 15:32:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA26055; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:24:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:24:25 -0800 Message-ID: <004601c3e5f5$c5b49400$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Wormsign Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:23:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA26003 Resent-Message-ID: <"MKoRZ3.0.0N6.eI4601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52850 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Methinks there are a few good candidates here for a really cool forum that specializes in this kind of thing (the far-out, so to speak): http://badastronomy.com/ It's worth the trouble to sign up - plus this forum has a feature that vortex could use - high-rez jpegs allowed. Check out the pro-and-cons of the infamous 'pyramid' (in the Martian Chron. section) - at high res, it is clearly no more than a mountain... but we all knew that no self-respecting Martian would waste time on a three-sided job anyway - plus those sand-worms have clearly evolved enough intelligence to know they need to put most of the good handiwork underground ;-) http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10775 Rumor has it that ' Muab Dib Dick' has already alerted Halliburton... and they are thinking about selling spice futures soon... Jones OTOH given the nature of 'spice' ... wouldn't selling futures be a loosing proposition? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 22:32:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA11260; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:30:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:30:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:42:51 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: lithium 6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"sKWOk3.0.rl2.NYA601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52851 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm listening to the Hugh Hewitt show. He just mentioned Kadaffi's producing several K grams of Li6, the only known use for which is the production of a H bomb. It just occurred to me, has anyone done any research with this material in an LENR? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 23:38:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA05642; Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:06:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:06:07 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Wormsign Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:30:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004601c3e5f5$c5b49400$8837fea9@cpq> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"18nl32.0.3O1.U3B601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52852 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey, that last image, http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040128a/Sol3_Outc rop_Color-sol004-b-B004R1.jpg was a knockout. So far I've had best results with the Photoshop program. I size the full image at the bottom of the screen, and use the remaining screenspace for the magnified image. The Navigate tool is perfect for this. Image filters are easy to apply when you need more umph. It sure looks like sedimentary rock there. Let's get that rover roving over and drill some rocks, huh jocks? I am itching to see an actual fossil, not this silly pyramid/face on mars/wingnut stuff that keeps passing thru the vort. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 6:24 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wormsign Methinks there are a few good candidates here for a really cool forum that specializes in this kind of thing (the far-out, so to speak): http://badastronomy.com/ It's worth the trouble to sign up - plus this forum has a feature that vortex could use - high-rez jpegs allowed. Check out the pro-and-cons of the infamous 'pyramid' (in the Martian Chron. section) - at high res, it is clearly no more than a mountain... but we all knew that no self-respecting Martian would waste time on a three-sided job anyway - plus those sand-worms have clearly evolved enough intelligence to know they need to put most of the good handiwork underground ;-) http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10775 Rumor has it that ' Muab Dib Dick' has already alerted Halliburton... and they are thinking about selling spice futures soon... Jones OTOH given the nature of 'spice' ... wouldn't selling futures be a loosing proposition? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 11:05:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA17372; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:00:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:00:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:00:02 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: mars_worms images - Square Hole Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"hsyQ12.0.HF4.IXL601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52853 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forwarded from Hamdi Ucar: ------------------------------------------------------------- Rick, due a problem, I can not post it to vortex, can you fw it? Thanks Constructional fossil hypothesis may fit better. That is would be an steel structural profile surrounded by concrete in a construction or naturally fossilized and the iron core was disappeared due to oxidation in a large amount of time or by melting. If a city is build by concrete buildings using square iron profile, even after total destruction of the city by a resurfacing of the planet, most possible fossil be found could be such a fossilized constructural elements. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: 28 January 2004 20:35 Subject: RE: mars_worms images - Square Hole > Explorecraft wrote: > > >Everyone knows that worms can't feed on > > bare limestone slabs like the ones in the pix. > >The degree of separation between the slabs has no > > connection to water or inter-stitial plant-life - > > we should all be aware that rocks separate naturally > > due to sand-particles accumulating between slabs. > > Probably purely natural erosion processes, > > nothing to do with life-forms whatsoever. > > Fossils of any shape or form can be created by either a creature's structure or its activities. Wormholes are a common type of fossil. You and I might be not know of any worms that feed on bare limestone, and though we'd consider it unlikely, there might be such a thing - bacteria and lichens that feed on bare limestone exist on earth. Anyway, that hole being discussed is in a volcanic rock in Gusev, and is almost certainly a gas bubble or small vent tube that got squashed a little bit - I see those all the time in lava around here. > Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 13:33:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA16709; Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:27:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:27:26 -0800 Message-ID: <012101c3e6aa$d56b1760$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: "Grimer" Subject: The "Bosenova"... did it bomb? Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:59:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011E_01C3E667.C6FD12C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"BlJU13.0.z44.zgN601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52854 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C3E667.C6FD12C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the fermionic-condensate department - some new studies are out: http://jilawww.colorado.edu/~jin/ http://www.nature.com/nsu/031110/031110-16.html These raise a few memories, a few possibilities...and a few flags. Several CF theories suggest that deuterium in a Pd matrix becomes a = fermionic condensate at relatively high temps... and validation may be = arriving slowly.=20 In a quick googling of the web, Horace Heffner seems to be among the = first to suggest that a Bose Einstein Condensate (BEC) effect, first = observed in 1995 with atoms other than liquid helium, could be behind CF = : he posted to sci.physics.fusion in 1996 a Bose Condensate hypothesis = for CF. Frank Z has also taken up the cause. I don't know the exact = chronology of these ideas, but for whomever was the first to pick up on = the connection, and is still working on the concept, remember that the = 1997 Nobel prize may not be the last one to go for BEC work... ;-) The implications of this whole field also makes one wonder, as always, = if some of the "official neglect" of cold fusion relates to = non-proliferation issues.=20 Perhaps some of this newer BEC work will expand into older ideas, if the = risk considerations are not as great as I suspect. Cold bound = accumulations of bosons (atoms, molecules or other bound groups of atoms = with an overall spin that is a whole-number value) can be coaxed into a = single quantum state, as was rubidium in '95 - which is a curious story = in itself as the only isotope of Rb that has a whole number nuclear spin = is radioactive...so one would have thought that deuterium should be = easier to pull off.=20 Unless... that is, the problem is that *temperature* itself is not the = defining issue in a BEC-like condensate, as everyone seems to think. = Maybe extremely low temperature is important *only* in the situation of = lack of applied pressure and/or lack of precise confinement. Pressure = and/or confinement are inversely related to temperature in the = determination of net entropy. Or unless... there are "other = considerations" - it is true that no deuterium BEC has ever been = publicly acknowledged, but a 'single quantum state' in deuterium may be = a far scarier proposition than people realize and much of the research = is likely to be have been classified decades ago. Perhaps cold fusion is a "very precise" QM phenomenon that only occurs = in extremely narrow situations of PVT (pressure/volume/temperature). = Perhaps there are a number of varying combinations of PVT, such that if = and when the parameters fall into any correct overall regime, some = degree of observable D+D fusion may occur due to enhanced QM tunneling = probability; but thereafter, any change in temperature (even the = increase caused by the fusion event itself) or change in the matrix = (such as with too much trace impurity in the Pd or by phase-change = caused by a fusion event) will begin to self-quench the process. But... = in effect, we already knew many of these things empirically, based on = the careful observations of operating CF cells as documented by Ed = Storms and others... but is there any suggestion in the recent = literature on how to make the process more robust in a different regime = - that is, at a different PVT than that of Pd-D at a certain temp?=20 The recent work of Li et al., mentioned several times on vortex, = indicates that a well-pronounced temperature anomaly exists with = deuterium and Pd - and one can surmise that this means that the PVT = balance is now defined fairly well for the one system - however, if we = can find a matrix/temp balance other than this well-known one (Pd-D at = 150 degrees C) which gives exactly the same entropy but at a much lower = T, then it might be possible to achieve far better fusion results by = lowering the positional randomness implicit in kinetic considerations at = 150C which must be severe. I suspect that such a regime would need to exist at a much lower = temperature and therefore with a larger-pored matrix than exists in Pd, = but with the same net entropy... some quick calculations seem to show = that Ti-D at about minus 50 C. will give the proper entropy regime... = but... consequently, for that particular low temp regime to be useful in = the real world, the excess energy effect would have to be made nearly = instantaneous - that is to say, catastrophic... as in an explosion, a = "bosenova bomb"?=20 But that requirement (for a nearly instantaneous one-time output) need = not involve explosions any larger than those currently available from = chemical explosives. In fact small versions of this concept could be = designed to raise steam in a small reactor, for instance... and = presumably with little induced radioactivity. The big difference being = that D+D > He is about 10 million times more energetic, pound-for- = pound, than is combustion. However, the end product of catastrophic BEC conversion of D=3D=3D> He, = because of its much higher energy density, might imply that it could be = employed as a trigger for a much larger destructive device, and = consequently the technology could not be released to the world-at-large, = one suspects... as it would involve unacceptable risks...=20 ...perhaps, the subject should be dropped altogether, despite its = potential usefulness, until such time that antagonistic cultures can = learn to coexist without terrorism... which I guess is, "on the 12th..." Jones Livermore Labs has spent (wasted) tens of $billions trying to build = extraordinarily expensive lasers to implode frozen D+T pellets.=20 Wouldn't it be the ultimate in irony if all they had ever needed to do = was to cryogenically freeze some deuterium in a Titanium (or other = appropriate) matrix until it became a BEC ? Then they could probably = implode that target with a pea shooter (metaphorically). ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C3E667.C6FD12C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From the fermionic-condensate department - some = new=20 studies are out:
http://jilawww.colorado.edu/~j= in/
http://www.natur= e.com/nsu/031110/031110-16.html
These raise a few memories, a few possibilities...and a few = flags.
 
Several CF theories suggest that deuterium in a Pd matrix becomes a = fermionic condensate at relatively high temps... and validation may be = arriving=20 slowly.
 
In a quick googling of the web, Horace Heffner seems to = be among=20 the first to suggest that a Bose Einstein Condensate (BEC) effect, first = observed in 1995 with atoms other than liquid helium, could be behind = CF :=20 he posted to sci.physics.fusion in 1996 a Bose Condensate hypothesis for = CF.=20 Frank Z has also taken up the cause. I don't know the exact chronology = of these=20 ideas, but for whomever was the first to pick up on the connection, and = is still=20 working on the concept, remember that the 1997 Nobel prize may not be = the last=20 one to go for BEC work...  ;-)
 
The implications of this whole field also makes one wonder, as = always,=20 if some of the "official neglect" of cold fusion relates to = non-proliferation=20 issues.
 
Perhaps some of this newer BEC work will expand into older ideas, = if the=20 risk considerations are not as great as I suspect. Cold bound=20 accumulations of bosons (atoms, molecules or other bound = groups of=20 atoms with an overall spin that is a whole-number value) can be coaxed = into a=20 single quantum state, as was rubidium in '95 - which is a curious story = in=20 itself as the only isotope of Rb that has a whole number nuclear spin is = radioactive...so one would have thought that deuterium should be easier = to pull=20 off.
 
Unless... that is, the problem is that *temperature* itself is = not the=20 defining issue in a BEC-like condensate, as everyone seems to = think. Maybe=20 extremely low temperature is important *only* in the situation of = lack of=20 applied pressure and/or lack of precise confinement. Pressure and/or = confinement=20 are inversely related to temperature in the determination of net = entropy. Or=20 unless... there are "other considerations" - it is true = that no=20 deuterium BEC has ever been publicly acknowledged, but a 'single quantum = state'=20 in deuterium may be a far scarier proposition than people realize and = much of=20 the research is likely to be have been classified decades ago.
 
Perhaps cold fusion is a "very precise" QM phenomenon = that only=20 occurs in extremely narrow situations of PVT=20 (pressure/volume/temperature). Perhaps there are a number of = varying=20 combinations of PVT, such that if and when the parameters fall into any = correct=20 overall regime, some degree of observable D+D fusion may occur due to = enhanced=20 QM tunneling probability; but thereafter, any change in temperature = (even the=20 increase caused by the fusion event itself) or change in the = matrix=20 (such as with too much trace impurity in the Pd or by phase-change = caused by a=20 fusion event) will begin to self-quench the process. But... in effect, = we=20 already knew many of these things empirically, based on the careful = observations=20 of operating CF cells as documented by Ed Storms and others... but is = there any=20 suggestion in the recent literature on how to make the process more=20 robust in a different regime - that is, at a different PVT = than that=20 of Pd-D at a certain temp?
 
The recent work of Li et al., mentioned several times on vortex, = indicates=20 that a well-pronounced temperature anomaly exists with deuterium and Pd = - and=20 one can surmise that this means that the PVT balance is now defined = fairly well=20 for the one system - however, if we can find a matrix/temp=20 balance other than this well-known one (Pd-D at 150 degrees = C) which=20 gives exactly the same entropy but at a much lower T, then it might = be=20 possible to achieve far better fusion results by lowering the=20 positional randomness implicit in kinetic considerations at 150C which = must be=20 severe.
 
I suspect that such a regime would need to exist at = a much=20 lower temperature and therefore with a larger-pored matrix than exists = in Pd,=20 but with the same net entropy... some quick calculations seem to show = that Ti-D=20 at about minus 50 C. will give the proper entropy regime... but... = consequently,=20 for that particular low temp regime to be useful in the real world, the = excess=20 energy effect would have to be made nearly instantaneous - that is to = say,=20 catastrophic... as in an explosion, a "bosenova bomb"?
 
But that requirement (for a nearly instantaneous one-time = output) need=20 not involve explosions any larger than those currently available from = chemical=20 explosives. In fact small versions of this concept could be designed to = raise=20 steam in a small reactor, for instance... and presumably with little = induced=20 radioactivity. The big difference being that D+D > He is about = 10=20 million times more energetic, pound-for- pound, than is = combustion.
 
However, the end product of catastrophic BEC conversion of = D=3D=3D> He,=20 because of its much higher energy density, might imply that it could be = employed=20 as a trigger for a much larger destructive device, and consequently the=20 technology could not be released to the world-at-large, one suspects... = as it=20 would involve unacceptable risks...
 
...perhaps, the subject should be dropped altogether, despite = its=20 potential usefulness, until such time that antagonistic cultures = can learn=20 to coexist without terrorism... which I guess is, "on the 12th..."
 
Jones
 
Livermore Labs has spent (wasted) tens of $billions trying to build = extraordinarily expensive lasers to implode frozen D+T pellets. =
 
Wouldn't it be the ultimate in irony if all they had ever needed to = do was=20 to cryogenically freeze some deuterium in a Titanium (or other = appropriate)=20 matrix until it became a BEC ? Then they could probably = implode that=20 target with a pea shooter (metaphorically).
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_011E_01C3E667.C6FD12C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 00:36:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA01502; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:33:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:33:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:34:10 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Anti-spam website Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"uvpkO2.0.ON.bRX601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52855 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This group is hoping to stem the flood of spam, IMHO, they deserve our support. http://www.un-sub.net/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 09:35:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02435; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:33:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:33:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <401A943D.8090108@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:28:29 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Website/Campaign to save the HST Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cFazd.0.-b.qLf601"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52856 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (Apologies if this is already old news.) In case anyone in this group cares, this website http://www.savethehubble.com/ is hosting a campaign to get the folks at Nasa to change their minds and run another maintenance mission to Hubble. Here's a brief quote, as background, from the message where I ran across this: "www.SaveTheHubble.com was established by University of Brasilia lecturer Fernando Ribeiro following the US space agency's decision to abandon the scope. [ ... ] Left alone, Hubble, called the most important scientific instrument ever, could only survive another three years." The site includes a petition to Nasa to reverse their decision. They've apparently got over 9,000 signatures already. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 09:47:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA29596; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:42:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:42:20 -0800 Message-ID: <401A9789.7060007@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:42:33 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anti-spam website References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"N87oO1.0.oD7.uTf601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52857 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please be very cautious with these folks. I don't know if they're legitimate, but www.spamhaus.org lists them as a "scam" engaging in email address harvesting. I would want a lot more information about them before I'd trust them with an Email address or support them in any other way. As a quick test, before trusting them with an address you care about you might set up a "scratch" email address and give it to un-sub, then see if it starts receiving spam. If it does, you can probably conclude they're bogus. See http://www.spamhaus.org/removelists.html for slightly more information. That page has one brief comment I saw regarding un-sub.net: "UnsubscribeNet unsubscribenet.com is a scam run by spammers to collect your email address." Now, I should also point out that I don't know for sure that spamhaus is aboveboard, either!! But I think it's clear that _either_ spamhaus is bogus, _or_ un-sub.net is bogus (or they both are) and I would want to know which is what before coughing up my email address to them. Cheers... thomas malloy wrote: > This group is hoping to stem the flood of spam, IMHO, they deserve our > support. > > http://www.un-sub.net/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 10:30:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA12474; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:29:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:29:14 -0800 Message-ID: <005301c3e74f$e0950100$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: wormsign, part deux Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:41:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0050_01C3E70C.D1DC37C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"oEJnF2.0.723.u9g601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52858 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C3E70C.D1DC37C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For anyone who hasn't yet had the opportunity to visit the good folks = over at badastronomy.com .... that's "bad" as in "hip" man... there = appears to be a "slight problem" with Spirit... http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Spirit/coverup.jpg Doesn't that 'wormsign look alarmingly like a footprint that the = 'gaffer' forgot to cover-up? Or maybe it was the 'best boy' ? ... shades of "Capricorn One" Jones Come to think of it, couldn't have been the best boy - doesn't that = wormsign look pretty much like a size 12 Bruno Magli ? ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C3E70C.D1DC37C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For anyone who hasn't yet had the opportunity to visit the good = folks over=20 at badastronomy.com ....  that's "bad" as in "hip" man... there = appears to=20 be a "slight problem" with Spirit...
 
http:= //www.enterprisemission.com/images/Spirit/coverup.jpg
 
 
Doesn't that 'wormsign look alarmingly like a footprint that the = 'gaffer'=20 forgot to cover-up? Or maybe it was the 'best boy' ?
 
... shades of "Capricorn One"
 
Jones
 
Come to think of it, couldn't have been the best boy -=20 doesn't that wormsign look pretty much like a size 12 Bruno = Magli=20 ?
------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C3E70C.D1DC37C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 10:37:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA17252; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:35:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:35:43 -0800 Message-ID: <007a01c3e75a$f24532c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <40180D7A.4010107@rtpatlanta.com> <40181A97.2010306@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Wormsign Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:00:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA17087 Resent-Message-ID: <"MtO7W.0.CD4.-Fg601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52859 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For anyone who hasn't yet had the opportunity to visit the good folks over at badastronomy.com .... that's "bad" as in "hip" man... there appears to be a "slight problem" with Spirit... http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Spirit/coverup.jpg Doesn't that 'wormsign' look alarmingly like a footprint that the 'gaffer' forgot to cover-up? Or maybe it was the 'best boy' ? ... shades of "Capricorn One" Jones Come to think of it, couldn't have been the best boy - doesn't that wormsign look pretty much like a size 12 Bruno Magli ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 15:52:39 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA20952; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:48:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:48:43 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Website/Campaign to save the HST Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:16:45 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <401A943D.8090108@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <401A943D.8090108@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA20852 Resent-Message-ID: <"ywIQZ.0.G75.Qrk601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52860 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:28:29 -0500: Hi, [snip] >The site includes a petition to Nasa to reverse their decision. They've >apparently got over 9,000 signatures already. [snip] I suspect they would have more luck if they combined their resources, and offered to fund the maintenance. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 16:56:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA17642; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:53:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:53:45 -0800 Message-ID: <401AD585.1080104@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:07:01 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Website/Campaign to save the HST References: <401A943D.8090108@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <401A943D.8090108@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"n__HP2.0.aJ4.Pol601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52861 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > The site includes a petition to Nasa to reverse their decision. > They've apparently got over 9,000 signatures already. I'll gladly sign this one. Vorts might also consider signing this one: http://www.petitiononline.com/gasci04/petition.html to prevent the Georgia Department of Education from substituting "biological progression" for "evolution". It made world news: http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/30/georgia.evolution/index.html Sheesh! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 23:43:12 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA07966; Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:42:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:42:28 -0800 Message-ID: <401B5CF7.9C68844A@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:44:55 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 30, 2004] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1JIZT3.0.Ly1.Znr601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52862 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 30, 2004 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:17:38 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: whatsnew@bobpark.org To: Akira Kawasaki WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 30 Jan 04 Washington, DC 1. BUDGET: HOW TO BRING DOWN AN OUT-OF-CONTROL BUDGET SURPLUS. When George W. Bush took office he was confronted with a looming $5.6 trillion surplus over the next decade (WN 9 Mar 01). OMB turned to fabled budget guru Elie Mosinari for help. Her first move was missile defense, a tactic previous administrations had relied on to control surpluses. Toss in a tax rebate, and by the end of summer the nation was safely in red ink. President Bush hailed it as "incredibly positive news"(WN 31 Aug 01). Elie was indignant when the Congressional Budget Office projected a mere $477B deficit for this year. It's actually going to be $521B. I called Elie to congratulate her. "How do you do it," I asked? "Discipline," she replied, "things like space stations help, but we never miss a chance to correct social injustice. Take our tax break for the richest Americans. People don't realize how much it costs to be rich today: private school, suburban orthodontist, country club membership, cosmetic surgery; these are expenses the rest of us never have to worry about. I'm glad we could help." 2. INTELLIGENT DESIGN: MISSOURI SEEMS TO BE EVOLVING INTO KANSAS. It's a familiar story, House Bill 911 before the Missouri General Assembly would force public schools to teach intelligent design as an alternative to evolution. Once again, academic freedom is being used as justification for feeding school children a dose of dopey fundamentalist religion. In the unlikely event that the bill were to actually pass, it will be challenged in court. And courts elsewhere have been pretty hard on anti-evolution. The concern is that the controversy will subject Missouri to the sort of ridicule that was showered on Kansas. And of course it should. 3. IT'S THE PITS: DECISION ON MODERN PIT FACILITY IS PUT ON HOLD. Plutonium "pits" are the cores of modern nuclear weapons. Every pit in the U.S. weapons stockpile was manufactured at the Rocky Flats plant near Denver, which was shut down in 1989. The pits age as a result of radioactive decay and will eventually become unreliable. The infamous Nuclear Posture Review (WN 15 Mar 02) calls for a modern pit facility to be constructed that could replace pits as they age, but it could also make pits for a new and highly controversial class of small nuclear weapons. The Rocky Flats plant, however, was an environmental nightmare that must not be repeated. This week, Linton Brooks, Administrator of the National Nuclear Security Administration, delayed the final environmental impact statement to address congressional concerns that construction of a modern pit facility would be premature. This infuriated the Doctor Strangeloves, whose fantasies are of nuclear bunker-busters. The source of congressional concern may be the preliminary draft of a report being developed by an independent panel of physicists that was circulated for comments. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 09:07:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA17518; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:04:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:04:33 -0800 Message-ID: <401BD8F1.4020706@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:33:53 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8YHrf2.0.bH4.W0-601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52863 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_p.jpg Zoom in on the top apex of the image. Bizarre! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 09:14:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA24260; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:13:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:13:27 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131102610.01cb3e30@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:41:22 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Website/Campaign to save the HST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"mlCHV.0._w5.t8-601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52864 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I do not favor trying to rescue the HST. It has been an overpriced mismanaged technical disaster from the start. It costs huge amounts of money to maintain, and I think it is obsolete. See the book "The Hubbell Wars," by Eric Chaisson. He describes, for example, how the space shuttle mission to "rescue" the Hubble actually cost far more than launching a new Hubble would have. NASA and the manned space programs waste huge sums of money that could better be spent on other research. I think they should all be canceled immediately, the international Spacelab should be abandoned, and all NASA research should be directed toward robotic exploration and building something like a space elevator or some other radically new and cheaper method of reaching space. The Space Shuttle has been another disaster, and a horrible tragedy that everyone should have seen was coming. Trying to fly it again now is utterly crazy, in my opinion. See: "Beam Me Out Of This Death Trap, Scotty": http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/8004.easterbrook-fulltext.html Terry Blanton writes: > Vorts might also consider signing this one: > > http://www.petitiononline.com/gasci04/petition.html > > to prevent the Georgia Department of Education from substituting > "biological progression" for "evolution". Now THAT'S a disgrace. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 10:53:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA29953; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:52:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:52:33 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Website/Campaign to save the HST Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:17:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131102610.01cb3e30@pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"nt3vQ3.0.wJ7.mb_601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52865 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >I do not favor trying to rescue the HST. It has been an overpriced >mismanaged technical disaster from the start. It costs huge amounts of >money to maintain, and I think it is obsolete. This may all be true, but it remains one of the programs which actually produces valuable scientific data. And it's a drop in the bucket compared to what we spend on the space station, which produces nothing of scientific value at all. That said, I do find it amusing to discover an issue that both you and Robert Park agree on. It's a cold day here in New York, which is as close to Hell as you can get by Georgian reckoning. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 11:18:50 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA22232; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:17:31 -0800 Message-ID: <20b601c3e82e$ca45d660$af01a8c0@colinqamd1200> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <401BD8F1.4020706@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:16:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.101.75.153] using ID at Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:15:39 -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <"bv2BT1.0.JR5.Bz_601"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52866 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, Yes, bizarre! Thanks for posting it. Does ESA have a tif version of that jpg image? Very interesting in what looks appears to be ancient steps in pyramid formation. Image requires higher resolution to resolve controversy. Where was the image taken? Note that *some* Mars ESA photos appearing in jpg format also appear in the much higher resolution "tif" format. That would be great if ESA also had this image in tif. I looked, but I could not locate this particular image when starting from their home page. Thanks. Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? > http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_p.jpg > > Zoom in on the top apex of the image. Bizarre! > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 12:19:13 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17148; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:18:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:18:00 -0800 Message-ID: <401C08B3.5030707@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:57:39 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4wggG.0.nB4.sr0701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52867 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Colin Quinney wrote: >Hi Terry, > >Yes, bizarre! Thanks for posting it. > >Does ESA have a tif version of that jpg image? Very interesting in what >looks appears to be ancient steps in pyramid formation. Image requires >higher resolution to resolve controversy. Where was the image taken? Note >that *some* Mars ESA photos appearing in jpg format also appear in the much >higher resolution "tif" format. That would be great if ESA also had this >image in tif. I looked, but I could not locate this particular image when >starting from their home page. Thanks. > Here's the caption: Valles Marineris perspective view, HRSC image 14 January This Mars picture (perspective view) was taken by High Resolution Stereo Camera (HRSC) onboard ESA’s Mars Express orbiter, in colour and 3D, in orbit 18 on 14 January 2004, from a height of 275 km. The location is in Valles Marineris at 5° North and 323° East. The area is 50 km across. The image has a resolution of 12 m per pixel, and shows mesas and cliffs as well as flow features which indicate erosion by the action of flowing water. The landscape is seen in a perspective view, with north at bottom. Here's the image contents page: >http://asimov.esrin.esa.int:8766/queryIG.html?rf=3&searchType=general&tipo=Image&tx0=Image&tx1=&col=mmg&qp=&qs=&qc=&ws=1&nh=12&lk=1&vf=0&ql=a&op0=%2B&fl0=ContentType%3A&ty0=p&op1=%2B&fl1=category%3A&ty1=p&op2=%2B&fl2=showcase%3A&ty2=p&tx2=SEMU775V9ED&showcase=Mars+Express< This image is on the bottom left on the first page. It is linked from this page: http://www.esa.int/export/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/index.html under "multimedia" on the left column. I have seen no .tif or .bmp from ESA yet. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 13:02:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA22616; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:00:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:00:34 -0800 Message-ID: <051201c3e83d$2241e9e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <401C08B3.5030707@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:59:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA22458 Resent-Message-ID: <"1XvGu2.0.BX5.nT1701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52868 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey guys, > Valles Marineris perspective view.... The Valles Marineris (aka Mars' Grand Canyon) is located just south of the Martian equator. The system is about 4000 km long, so on earth, that would extend all the way across the USA. In places the canyon floor reaches a depth of 10 km, 6 times deeper than the Grand Canyon. It would naturally be the very place where most of the scant surface water would accumulate... and consequently, a fine home for advanced civilizations, one might imagine... The Ophir and Candor Chasmata are located in the central part of the canyon. But here is the website that pretty much 'tells it all'... at least for potential space cadets: http://mars-news.de/life/city.html.en In all candor, a whole city at Candor is bit of a stretch... OK... more than a bit, but so was finding civilization in the Americas... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 13:37:34 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA18346; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:35:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:35:28 -0800 Message-ID: <052d01c3e842$04dbb8e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Colossal Electric Conductivity? Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:34:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0529_01C3E7FE.F6290A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"QrEHw3.0.GU4.V-1701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52869 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0529_01C3E7FE.F6290A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A scientist from Croatia named Danijel Djurek, PhD was hailed at home as = the new Tesla several years ago with his announcement of the "holy = grail" of electrical engineering - RTSC (room temperature = superconductivity)... but, oops, nobody could reproduce that work. Now = he has a somewhat revised paper online at: http://arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0310011 "Colossal Electric Conductivity in Ag-defect Ag5Pb2O6" Authors: D. Djurek, Z. Medunic, M. Paljevic, A. Tonejc "Bystroem-Evers compound Ag5 Pb2O6 has been annealed at 500-540 K under = flow of electric current which results in a textured structure and = anisotropic colossal electric conductivity (> 10^9 ohm-1cm-1) between = 210-525 K".=20 525 K... wow, that's good, but... what, one might ask, is Colossal = Electric Conductivity -is it a correlate to colossal magnetoresistence? = or another form of "ultraconductivity"? or more likely a dose of Balkan = hyperbole. Like the ultraconductor, the material is anisotropic, but is said to be = able to be extruded into wire as the directionality is a bulk-effect, = apparently due to passing current through the molten material as it = cools. Maybe if Mark Goldes is tuned-in he could enlighten us? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0529_01C3E7FE.F6290A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A scientist from Croatia named Danijel Djurek, PhD was=20 hailed at home as the new Tesla several years ago with = his=20 announcement of the "holy grail" of electrical engineering - RTSC (room=20 temperature superconductivity)... but, oops, nobody could reproduce = that=20 work. Now he has a somewhat revised paper online at:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/cond-= mat/0310011
 

"Colossal Electric Conductivity in Ag-defect Ag5Pb2O6"

Authors: D. Djurek, Z. Medunic, M. Paljevic, A. = Tonejc
"Bystroem-Evers compound Ag5 Pb2O6 has been annealed at 500-540 K = under=20 flow of electric current which results in a textured structure and = anisotropic=20 colossal electric conductivity (> 10^9 ohm-1cm-1) between 210-525 K". =
 
525 K... wow, that's good, but... what, one might ask, is Colossal = Electric=20 Conductivity -is it a correlate to colossal magnetoresistence? or = another form=20 of "ultraconductivity"? or more likely a dose of Balkan hyperbole.
 
Like the ultraconductor, the material is anisotropic, but = is said=20 to be able to be extruded into wire as the directionality is a = bulk-effect,=20 apparently due to passing current through the molten material as it = cools. Maybe=20 if Mark Goldes is tuned-in he could enlighten us?
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0529_01C3E7FE.F6290A20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 14:20:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA17217; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:18:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:18:10 -0800 Message-ID: <401C29AD.3010902@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:18:21 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Colossal Electric Conductivity? References: <052d01c3e842$04dbb8e0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <052d01c3e842$04dbb8e0$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"By-nb1.0.wC4.Yc2701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > A scientist from Croatia named Danijel Djurek, PhD was hailed at home > as the new Tesla several years ago with his announcement of the "holy > grail" of electrical engineering - RTSC (room temperature > superconductivity)... but, oops, nobody could reproduce that work. Now > he has a somewhat revised paper online at: > http://arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0310011 > > > "Colossal Electric Conductivity in Ag-defect Ag5Pb2O6" > > Authors: D. Djurek, Z. Medunic, M. Paljevic, A. Tonejc > "Bystroem-Evers compound Ag5 Pb2O6 has been annealed at 500-540 K > under flow of electric current which results in a textured structure > and anisotropic colossal electric conductivity (> 10^9 ohm-1cm-1) > between 210-525 K". This is great news as I am holding a lot of $6.00 silver. (Damned digital cameras!) http://www.goldnewsweekly.com/index_silver.asp?CC=157 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 14:28:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA23134; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:25:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:25:47 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131140344.01cb3c70@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:13:54 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Website/Campaign to save the HST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Ky7aZ.0.Qf5.gj2701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: > I do not favor trying to rescue the HST. It has been an overpriced > mismanaged technical disaster from the start. It costs huge amounts of > money to maintain, and I think it is obsolete. I forgot to add this critical point: it would take another Shuttle flight to fix the HST, and I do not think it is worth risking people's lives, even if they are eager volunteers. See Eric Baard's take on this story: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,62103,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 Keith Nagel writes: > This may all be true, but it remains one of the programs which > actually produces valuable scientific data. Don't forget the Mars explorers! They seem to be doing a great job. Since the HST was launched, ground based telescopes have improved tremendously, and I read that in some respects their performance now equals the HST in ways that were considered impossible when it was launched. I think the money spent repairing it would be better spent on ground-based telescopes, or to expedite the next space telescope, now scheduled for 2011. (Baard) > That said, I do find it amusing to discover an issue that > both you and Robert Park agree on. Heh, heh. He has so many opinions, he is bound to be right sooner or later. "Even a stopped [analog] clock . . ." Actually, we disagree. I favor a return to space even for manned space projects, using radically new and cheaper technology. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 14:31:52 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA27745; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:30:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:30:32 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rmuha@mail.minimal.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <401BD8F1.4020706@rtpatlanta.com> References: <401BD8F1.4020706@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:50:23 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"ic97_2.0.Nn6.7o2701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_p.jpg oddly similar to the pyramid in the top right corner of the first pic on this page, same kind of steps in front http://www.aadm.com/cydonia/Eden.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 14:40:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA32690; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:38:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:38:11 -0800 Message-ID: <401C2E5A.8040408@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:38:18 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? References: <401BD8F1.4020706@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EEMxp2.0.e-7.Iv2701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ralph muha wrote: >> http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_p.jpg > > > oddly similar to the pyramid in the top right corner of the > first pic on this page, same kind of steps in front > > http://www.aadm.com/cydonia/Eden.html Yeah, a lot like one in Egypt, Snofru's: http://www.narmer.pl/pir/snofru_en.htm#1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 17:31:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA01603; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:30:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:30:15 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [67.74.42.160] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Colossal Electric Conductivity? Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:29:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2004 01:29:34.0665 (UTC) FILETIME=[D94D0B90:01C3E862] Resent-Message-ID: <"R8dhD1.0.xO.dQ5701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jones, The conductivity is no greater than our Ultraconductors. However, wire remains three years and $12 million ahead of us. We hope to begin that development program in February. I've asked Kevin Shambrook, our Chief Scientist, to comment and will forward his remarks. For those unfamiliar with Ultraconductors, see www.ultraconductors.com Best, Mark Mark Goldes Chairman & CEO Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: "vortex" >Subject: Colossal Electric Conductivity? >Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:34:33 -0800 > >A scientist from Croatia named Danijel Djurek, PhD was hailed at home as >the new Tesla several years ago with his announcement of the "holy grail" >of electrical engineering - RTSC (room temperature superconductivity)... >but, oops, nobody could reproduce that work. Now he has a somewhat revised >paper online at: >http://arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0310011 > > >"Colossal Electric Conductivity in Ag-defect Ag5Pb2O6" > >Authors: D. Djurek, Z. Medunic, M. Paljevic, A. Tonejc > >"Bystroem-Evers compound Ag5 Pb2O6 has been annealed at 500-540 K under >flow of electric current which results in a textured structure and >anisotropic colossal electric conductivity (> 10^9 ohm-1cm-1) between >210-525 K". > >525 K... wow, that's good, but... what, one might ask, is Colossal Electric >Conductivity -is it a correlate to colossal magnetoresistence? or another >form of "ultraconductivity"? or more likely a dose of Balkan hyperbole. > >Like the ultraconductor, the material is anisotropic, but is said to be >able to be extruded into wire as the directionality is a bulk-effect, >apparently due to passing current through the molten material as it cools. >Maybe if Mark Goldes is tuned-in he could enlighten us? > >Jones _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 21:53:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA24857; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:52:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:52:09 -0800 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Website/Campaign to save the HST Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:56:48 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131140344.01cb3c70@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131140344.01cb3c70@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200402010056.48431.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ikahd3.0.I46.9G9701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 31 January 2004 14:13, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > I do not favor trying to rescue the HST. It has been an overpriced > > mismanaged technical disaster from the start. It costs huge amounts of > > money to maintain, and I think it is obsolete. > > I forgot to add this critical point: it would take another Shuttle flight > to fix the HST, and I do not think it is worth risking people's lives, even > if they are eager volunteers. > > See Eric Baard's take on this story: > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,62103,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 > > Keith Nagel writes: > > This may all be true, but it remains one of the programs which > > actually produces valuable scientific data. > > Don't forget the Mars explorers! They seem to be doing a great job. > > Since the HST was launched, ground based telescopes have improved > tremendously, and I read that in some respects their performance now equals > the HST in ways that were considered impossible when it was launched. I > think the money spent repairing it would be better spent on ground-based > telescopes, or to expedite the next space telescope, now scheduled for > 2011. (Baard) > > > That said, I do find it amusing to discover an issue that > > both you and Robert Park agree on. > > Heh, heh. He has so many opinions, he is bound to be right sooner or later. > "Even a stopped [analog] clock . . ." > > Actually, we disagree. I favor a return to space even for manned space > projects, using radically new and cheaper technology. > > - Jed On a site devoted to nuclear space there is a story about a 'mini-mag-orion type booster engine said to have a thrust equal to the space shuttle's main engine but with 50 times the fuel efficiency. Just strap 6 of these to a redesigned shuttle or Russian Buran and just maybe one would have a single stage to orbit ....REAL....shuttle. Now if with enough power, even if with a little help of a modified Z-pinch machine which the mini'orion is, one could now address the issue of a redesign of the heat shielding to a sturdier one, preferably some metal or composite....and a crew escape capsule like the ballistic apollos that some NASA types are so fond of these days. Jeeze, can't we get past riding in artillery shells? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 22:39:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA10215; Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:38:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:38:33 -0800 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Colossal Electric Conductivity? Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:46:29 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <052d01c3e842$04dbb8e0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <052d01c3e842$04dbb8e0$8837fea9@cpq> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200402010046.29759.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"3Carp.0.TV2.ex9701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 31 January 2004 16:34, Jones Beene wrote: > A scientist from Croatia named Danijel Djurek, PhD was hailed at home as > the new Tesla several years ago with his announcement of the "holy grail" > of electrical engineering - RTSC (room temperature superconductivity)... > but, oops, nobody could reproduce that work. Now he has a somewhat revised > paper online at: http://arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0310011 > > > "Colossal Electric Conductivity in Ag-defect Ag5Pb2O6" > > Authors: D. Djurek, Z. Medunic, M. Paljevic, A. Tonejc > > "Bystroem-Evers compound Ag5 Pb2O6 has been annealed at 500-540 K under > flow of electric current which results in a textured structure and > anisotropic colossal electric conductivity (> 10^9 ohm-1cm-1) between > 210-525 K". > > 525 K... wow, that's good, but... what, one might ask, is Colossal Electric > Conductivity -is it a correlate to colossal magnetoresistence? or another > form of "ultraconductivity"? or more likely a dose of Balkan hyperbole. > > Like the ultraconductor, the material is anisotropic, but is said to be > able to be extruded into wire as the directionality is a bulk-effect, > apparently due to passing current through the molten material as it cools. > Maybe if Mark Goldes is tuned-in he could enlighten us? > > Jones that would be nice