From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 14:12:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA01616; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:10:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:10:04 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Website/Campaign to save the HST Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 08:09:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131102610.01cb3e30@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131102610.01cb3e30@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA01424 Resent-Message-ID: <"1qUfb1.0.9P.yaN701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:41:22 -0500: Hi, [snip] >I do not favor trying to rescue the HST. It has been an overpriced >mismanaged technical disaster from the start. It costs huge amounts of >money to maintain, and I think it is obsolete. See the book "The Hubbell >Wars," by Eric Chaisson. He describes, for example, how the space shuttle >mission to "rescue" the Hubble actually cost far more than launching a new >Hubble would have. NASA and the manned space programs waste huge sums of >money that could better be spent on other research. I think they should all >be canceled immediately, the international Spacelab should be abandoned, >and all NASA research should be directed toward robotic exploration and >building something like a space elevator or some other radically new and >cheaper method of reaching space. [snip] I think the "space elevator" is obsolete before it even gets off the drawing board. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 14:54:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA16241; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:51:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:51:43 -0800 From: hamdix@iris.com.tr Message-ID: <000d01c3e906$b86f8de0$c864a8c0@win98> To: Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:02:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"6YynY1.0.bz3.-BO701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lines/steps concide with direction of other othogonal color bands in the image. Could be a rendering artifact? hamdi ucar ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: 31 January 2004 18:33 Subject: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? > http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_p.jpg > > Zoom in on the top apex of the image. Bizarre! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 15:03:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA28064; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:02:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:02:47 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:06:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Anode Blue Glow Resent-Message-ID: <"PCgxY1.0.As6.MMO701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some time ago I reported here observing a blue glow about the anode in high voltage electrolysis/electrospark experiments. This was observed in CaO electolyte and others, once the electrodes were "conditioned" a while by running AC through them. In the course of conditioning the electrode a rectifying film is produced, which in the case of two identical electrodes produces in effect a capacitive element in the circuit, i.e. the opposition of two diodes in series. This capacitive element is breached at a sufficient voltage, and there is a current vs voltage curve that suggests a statistical effect, namely the tunneling of electrons through the barrier. When the conditioning is complete, and DC current us used, the blue or blue-green glow can be seen on the anode surface, especially when the anode has a large surface and the cathode an equal or smaller surface. In my experiments the objective was to generate electrospark or cathode sheaths at the cathode, so typically the cathode was smaller than or the same size as the anode. The blue glow on the anode was a surprise. The onset of this glow in signifcant brightness was observed in CaO electrolyte at fairly high voltages, i.e. over 400 V. The free energy list has a reference to the following: which discusses the use of borax electrolyte and ordinary baking soda to achieve an anode glow at less than household voltage (120 V). It should be interesting to see what develops there. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 15:05:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA29860; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:04:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:04:25 -0800 Message-ID: <401D8605.2060609@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 18:04:37 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? References: <000d01c3e906$b86f8de0$c864a8c0@win98> In-Reply-To: <000d01c3e906$b86f8de0$c864a8c0@win98> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1irLg3.0.TI7.uNO701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hamdix@iris.com.tr wrote: >Lines/steps concide with direction of other othogonal color bands in the image. >Could be a rendering artifact? > Certainly. However, there's still the two-portal hole. Do Martians drive on the left or right? :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 15:37:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA02395; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:35:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:35:45 -0800 Message-ID: <401D8D29.2090900@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 16:35:05 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? References: <000d01c3e906$b86f8de0$c864a8c0@win98> <401D8605.2060609@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hzSDB1.0.Eb.GrO701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > hamdix@iris.com.tr wrote: > >> Lines/steps concide with direction of other othogonal color bands in >> the image. >> Could be a rendering artifact? >> > > Certainly. However, there's still the two-portal hole. Do Martians > drive on the left or right? :-) I don't know that, but the evidence is that they use right hand threaded screws, from two examples, on in pathfinder's "big crater pan cglyph" image and one from Spirit. The evidence is that they use box beams rather than I beams for construction, also. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 17:48:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA17683; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:47:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:47:26 -0800 Message-ID: <021a01c3e92e$6383b810$af01a8c0@colinqamd1200> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: , References: <000d01c3e906$b86f8de0$c864a8c0@win98> Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:46:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.101.75.153] using ID at Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:43:52 -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <"rycJC1.0.CK4.kmQ701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Controversy might be resolved if ESA has a higher resolution image of same. As an example of higher resolution Mars images presented on ESA web site ( http://www.esa.int/export/esaCP/SEM8ZB474OD_index_0.html ) click on, "Europe's Eye on Mars" (near top, right side of page) or click http://www.esa.int/export/esaCP/SEMFEB474OD_FeatureWeek_1.html Note downloadable Hi Res TIFF @ 7.278 KB. Unfortunately my computer hangs up during download, but perhaps other vorts will have better luck. I suspect that ESA's original image of the stepped pyramid and underground entrances may also exist at higher resolutions than JPG format, but communication with ESA would be required for permission to view these, if they have them.. Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:02 PM Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? > Lines/steps concide with direction of other othogonal color bands in the image. > Could be a rendering artifact? > > hamdi ucar > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > To: > Sent: 31 January 2004 18:33 > Subject: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? > > > > http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_p.jpg > > > > Zoom in on the top apex of the image. Bizarre! > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 20:34:18 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA03744; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:32:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:32:15 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:31:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8jkr1099kl63gvkvk343lvqhmmjpd4043s@4ax.com> References: <000d01c3e906$b86f8de0$c864a8c0@win98> In-Reply-To: <000d01c3e906$b86f8de0$c864a8c0@win98> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA03709 Resent-Message-ID: <"vhSs_2.0.Ow.EBT701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to hamdix@iris.com.tr's message of Sun, 01 Feb 2004 23:02:27 +0200: Hi, [snip] >Lines/steps concide with direction of other othogonal color bands in the image. >Could be a rendering artifact? > >hamdi ucar Yes, possibly. What do you think of the dome at the left hand edge of the circular dark shadow region on the right of the photo? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 23:37:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA01225; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:35:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:35:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131102610.01cb3e30@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:35:21 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: CNN: Element 115 "discovered" - old news??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA01118 Resent-Message-ID: <"C75je.0.uI.9tV701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just saw a scroller on CNN that said a Russian and American team had created some element 115. High-octane saucer juice at last. But didn't this happen a few months ago? Couldn't find anything on the CNN web site. Did find a Russian site, but it's .. in Russian. None for sale on eBay yet either, I checked. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 05:30:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA01572; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 05:26:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 05:26:53 -0800 Message-ID: <401E5000.6090900@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 08:26:24 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CNN: Element 115 "discovered" - old news??? References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131102610.01cb3e30@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RAmW23.0.WO.T0b701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >None for sale on eBay yet either, I checked. > Oh, yeah? Seems Mercedes has been doing a little reverse engineering: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33648&item=2457173897< From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 06:07:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA30574; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:04:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 06:04:20 -0800 Message-ID: <015401c3e995$70322800$f9ffa8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131102610.01cb3e30@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Element 115 "discovered" - old news??? Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:03:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"bZ12Z2.0.dT7.ZZb701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Just saw a scroller on CNN that said a Russian and American team had created some element 115. High-octane saucer juice at last. But didn't this happen a few months ago? Couldn't find anything on the CNN web site. Did find a Russian site, but it's .. in Russian. None for sale on eBay yet either, I checked. http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/7851387.htm Wasn't it supposed to be stable? It's not. Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 08:50:03 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28638; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:43:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:43:44 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Element 115 "discovered" - old news??? Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:07:29 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <015401c3e995$70322800$f9ffa8c0@Craig> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"zd_G4.0.Q_6.nud701"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52887 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wasn't it supposed to be fuel for the secret government UFO's we stole from the aliens??? I guess it wasn't. In other news, how about those WMD's of Saddam???? K. PS: That link to Ebay was a gas, thanks Terry. -----Original Message----- From: SnowDog [mailto:SnowDog@GoldDirectory.com] Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:04 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Element 115 "discovered" - old news??? > Just saw a scroller on CNN that said a Russian and American team had created some element 115. High-octane saucer juice at last. But didn't this happen a few months ago? Couldn't find anything on the CNN web site. Did find a Russian site, but it's .. in Russian. None for sale on eBay yet either, I checked. http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/7851387.htm Wasn't it supposed to be stable? It's not. Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 09:02:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA25643; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:57:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:57:22 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:01:29 -0900 To: From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Element 115 "discovered" - old news??? Resent-Message-ID: <"xAt6Z1.0.ZG6.o5e701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New news from the AIP: PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 672 February 2, 2004 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon ELEMENT 115 HAS BEEN DISCOVERED at the Joint Institute for Nuclear Research (JINR) in Dubna, Russia. JINR physicists and their longtime collaborators from Lawrence Livermore National Lab in the US produced 4 atoms of the new superheavy element by striking a target of americium-243 atoms with a beam of calcium-48 ions. The beam energy used, 248 MeV, was chosen to produce just the right energy conditions for making the amalgamated nucleus but not causing it to break up, at least not right away. The long lifetime observed for element 115 suggests that physicists might be getting closer to the "island of stability," the presumed region on the chart of possible nuclear isotopes for which certain combinations of protons and neutrons (collectively known as nucleons, the regular constituents of all nuclei) are much more stable than some of the other heavy nuclei made artificially at accelerators. In general, nature doesn't produce elements heavier than uranium (element 92) and scientists must resort to colliding smaller nuclei to build up heavyweight elements. In previous experiments conducted by the same team at Dubna, evidence has been recorded for elements 114 and 116. One sequential decay event corresponding to element 118 was also seen. (Claims for a separate discovery of element 118 by a group at the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab in the US were later withdrawn.) In the new experiment, using the same approach, a beam of calcium-48 atoms (atomic number, or Z, equal to 20) was plowed into a target of americium-243 atoms (Z=95). By bringing together element 95 with element 20, four atoms of element 115 were created The nuclei of these precious atoms apparently lived for 90 msec. They expired in the following way: by decaying first to element 113 by the emission of an alpha particle (a nuclear morsel consisting of two protons and two neutrons); thence to element 111 by alpha emission again; and then by three more alpha decay steps to element 105 ("Dubnium") which, after the delay of a whole day (almost an eternity in nuclear physics) from the time of the original interaction, finally fissioned. Besides being a very difficult physics experiment to carry out, this work represents a great feat of nuclear chemistry, since it entailed sifting 4 atoms out of trillions of candidates. In other words, the gas-filled separator, employing chemistry, proved to be just as important as the accelerator. In the past decade or so even-Z superheavy nuclei---112, 114, 116, 118---were sought at Dubna chiefly because of the facility's intense beams of Ca-48 and the ready availability of even-Z actinide targets. By the way, this experiment also marks the discovery of a second element, 113, which had not been seen before either. (Oganessian et al., Physical Review C, upcoming article; contact Yuri Oganessian at JINR, oganessian@flnr.jinr.ru, 011-7-09621-62151; Ken Moody at Livermore, 925-423-4585, moody3@llnl.gov, or Mark Stoyer, mastoyer@llnl.gov, cell phone 301-661-1169; background article by Oganessian in Scientific American, Jan 2000.) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 13:00:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA21176; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:56:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:56:52 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:56:45 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qRQai1.0.mA5.Jch701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk > [snip] > I think the "space elevator" is obsolete before it even gets off the drawing board. What would make it obsolete? I do not know of any better alternatives. Even a CF powered rocket would not be as good. I think the elevator would be cheaper per kg, safer, environmentally benign, with much larger capacity than any rocket, even in the first implementation now being proposed. It could be used to hoist material for a larger elevator. This "bootstrapping" might eventually -- in the distant future -- result in a system enough to carry thousands people and tons of freight per hour. Built on a reasonably small scale, it might have as much capacity as a conventional four line railroad. That's 60,000 people per hour; enough to evacuate the planet in 11 years. Atlanta's airport, the busiest in the world, dispatches just under 9,000 people per hour, and its freight hauling capacity is minuscule compared to a 4-line railroad. The only thing I can image that might be better is an anti-gravity flying machine. Even that would have some problems with cost, safety, capacity and air traffic control that would make it inferior to an elevator. Anyway, as far as I know, no one has convincingly demonstrated by experiment that anti-gravity devices exist, and no theory says they can exist. Regarding conventional rockets, Gene Mallove knows a great deal about this subject. He wrote a book about it. Perhaps he can correct me, but as far as I know, a CF powered rocket (or some other nuclear power, or zero point energy) would have a smaller fuel tank than a chemical rocket, and a much greater range. This would be a tremendous advantage traveling between planets. The trip to the moon is fairly short anyway, but a nuclear rocket could take off from moon to return to earth with a much larger payload. But in a launch from earth to near space, it seems to me that chemical fuel is just about as good as "ideal" nuclear power or ZPE. As long as the chemical aircraft is safe and extremely unlikely to explode, and the fuel is non-toxic, no-global-warming hydrogen and oxygen, what difference does it make how many tons of fuel are required to reach orbit? We have unlimited supplies of water. I think NASA presently uses hydrogen derived from fossil fuel, but in the future it might use H2 and O2 from water. As far as I know, all of the proposed nuclear or CF earth-to-orbit rocket design would still require huge amounts of inert fluid as a propellant. I think hydrogen is the best choice. Perhaps water would be safer. The fluid is heated to the hottest temperature you can manage, and expelled -- just like a conventional rocket. Perhaps the mass of reactant would be less than an H2 - O2 rocket; I do not know, but it would not be all that much less, unless you can make the nuclear reaction at a million degrees, and expel plasma. There are several well-known schemes to make rockets without engines, powered by lasers or microwave energy from the ground. I believe the amount of propellant fluid in these schemes would be comparable to a CF, nuclear or ZPE rocket. Here is a small prototype that used hot air as the propellant. (It should appeal to a Congressional funding committee.) The technique could not reach orbit, obviously: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9709/24/laser.rocket.reut/ Here is a proposed laser rocket that would work as an air ramjet until it reaches the edge of atmosphere, when an on-board supply of hydrogen is used as propellant. This document says it would carry "substantially less" fluid than a chemical rocket, but it does not say how much less: http://www.geocities.com/tonylance/liteship.html Robert Forward thought about a "light sail" interstellar laser powered rocket: http://www.sff.net/people/geoffrey.landis/laser_ion.htp (Forward, who died in 2002, was one of these people whose personality somehow magically came to reflect his name, or vice versa.) Once you leave the atmosphere, something like a nuclear or CF ion rockets can produce constant thrust with very little propellant. This is far superior to chemical fuel. But as far as I know nothing like this is capable of launching from earth. Anyway, while I do not know much about these technologies, it seems to me that if an elevator can be built it would beat these other approaches from a practical point of view. Incidentally (pun intended) the elevator plans I have seen call for ground based laser power, with on-board photovoltaic conversion. CF would be a lot better, but elevator laser power would be much safer and lower power than the laser rocket schemes call for. With a laser rocket, if you miss the target (the collector), either the vehicle begins to fall like a stone or you instantly incinerate the payload and passengers. With an elevator, if you miss the target, the vehicle stops climbing for a while, and sits there. If the laser fails completely and cannot be repaired for days, all you do is release the brakes and roll back down to earth. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 14:09:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA08553; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:05:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:05:40 -0800 Message-ID: <401EC9C5.3090401@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 17:05:57 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9HQhy2.0.K52.oci701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk > > > [snip] > > I think the "space elevator" is obsolete before it even gets off the > drawing board. > > What would make it obsolete? I do not know of any better alternatives. Technically it seems like an unbeatable idea. However, folks said the same thing about SSPS's a generation ago (that is, Satellite Solar Power Stations, for the non-L5-ers among us). I don't know if they would have been technically feasible, but the fact that they required an enormous microwave beam to pass through the atmosphere doomed them politically from the start. Similarly, it seems like there's an insurmountable problem with a space elevator, which is likely to prevent adequate development funding from ever materializing. Consider: Suppose we build one. Then, suppose an Elbonian terrorist armed with a bolt cutter and a scuba tank shinnies up the ribbon to the end and cuts loose the counterweight. Suppose furthermore that the quick-release connectors in the synchronous-orbit terminal platform fail to release, and the whole mess comes down, cable, platform, elevators, and all. At that point roughly 30,000 miles of unbreakable ribbon wrap themselves all the way around the Earth, with the orbital platform crashing down on some lucky party for good measure. Elbonia, as host to the terrorists, is liable for the damage, but since the Elbonian annual budget was entirely consumed by the cost of the scuba tank, they can't pay reparations. So ... who pays? In other words, who's ultimately liable in a worst-case scenario, where the whole ribbon comes down in one piece and plasters the capitol of every equatorial country on Earth? Most likely it could be engineered to prevent a mess like this from ever happening -- but here's the point: Would it really be possible to convince the backers (AKA the voters) that they were safe from such a disaster? Getting liability insurance on the elevator seems likely to be impossible, and without it I don't see how it could ever get off the ground. (If you don't like the Elbonian terrorist with a bolt cutter, replace him with somebody who steals a space plane and an ASAT and blows the end off the cable. The final result is the same.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 15:17:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA31229; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:13:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:13:06 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202173332.01cb3e38@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:13:03 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"c7X4Z3.0.vd7.1cj701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence writes: > Technically it seems like an unbeatable idea. > > However, folks said the same thing about SSPS's a generation ago (that > is, Satellite Solar Power Stations, for the non-L5-ers among us). There were many problems with them, starting with the cost. There was no way to launch that much equipment. I do not think the technology to build them exists even now. > ever materializing. Consider: > > Suppose we build one. > > Then, suppose an Elbonian terrorist armed with a bolt cutter and a scuba > tank shinnies up the ribbon to the end and cuts loose the counterweight. The "end"? Where? 200,000 km out in space? No one could reach that without being noticed. If he cut it anywhere within the earth's atmosphere, nothing much would happen. The ribbon above the cut flutter in the wind. The ribbon below the cut would fall to earth with the terminal velocity of an open sheet of newspaper. See: http://www.isr.us/SEHome.asp?m=1 Also, by the way, how would this terrorist cut it? With what tool? The material is orders of magnitude stronger than steel. As the FAQ says, the base on earth would have to be located in middle of ocean, far from anywhere, and unapproachable. > Suppose furthermore that the quick-release connectors in the > synchronous-orbit terminal platform fail to release, and the whole mess > comes down, cable, platform, elevators, and all. Why would there be quick release connectors? Anyway, I suppose it might fall up, but not down. > At that point roughly 30,000 miles of unbreakable ribbon wrap themselves > all the way around the Earth, with the orbital platform crashing down on > some lucky party for good measure. As I said, I cannot imagine the terrorist would go 30,000 miles up without being detected. But let us suppose instead he boards a regular passenger train after the cables have been use for 100 years, and he carries something strong enough to sever the track -- say, a tactical nuclear weapon. The ribbon and platform would fall straight to earth, wouldn't they? They are not moving relative to earth. Why would they wrap around the earth? They would land on or very close to the platform. Probably close, since there is always wind in the middle of the Pacific ocean somewhere between the ground and the top of the atmosphere. The mass of the ribbon is small, and it would make no difference. The other equipment might make a big splash. > So ... who pays? This only seems like problem because the system is novel, and we tend to see the shortcomings and dangers in novel, new and untested systems. We overlook much more dangerous systems that exist already, such as our highway system, that kills 40,000 people per year. Or take a large large gasoline storage facilities I have often seen from the road, at the end of a pipeline. (I do not want to say where it is.) It has dozens of tanks. When one exploded years ago, houses were evacuated for several days. It used to be out in the open, but after 9/11 they put up chain link fence, with a gate that is unguarded and often left wide open. Anyone could drive a truck full of explosives through the main entrance, or through the fence, or launch a rocket at a tank, and cause tremendous damage and dislocation. There are probably ten thousand equally vulnerable industrial plants in the U.S. God only knows how many loose, unguarded nuclear bombs and nuclear debris is lying around in Russia. I recently saw a news special on NHK showing 24 Russian nuclear submarines in the Sea of Japan. They are rusting away in piers in an industrial city. The Japanese are paying hundreds of millions of dollars to cut them up and get rid of them, but from the video I got the impression the places is abandoned and unguarded, and any suicidal lunatic could climb aboard and steal abandoned reactor parts. It is unguarded for a good reason. Anyone with a Geiger counter can see that the surrounding shipyard and dock areas are chock full of high level nuclear debris from ships they tried to break up earlier. I mean everything including chunks of reactor core rods. No guard could survive there for long. > (If you don't like the Elbonian terrorist with a bolt cutter, replace > him with somebody who steals a space plane and an ASAT and blows the end > off the cable. The final result is the same.) It would be difficult to hit a target a meter wide and a few microns thick. Very difficult! In the distant future when there may be a full blown, 4-track passenger carrying system, there will be no space planes. Why would anyone need them? Certainly there will be none controllable by humans. I doubt that any future vehicle larger than a bicycle will be controlled by anything other than intelligent computers -- and these computers will always follow the traffic laws. Also, a full-scale track would be so strong, a "space plane" would bounce off it, as Arthur Clarke pointed out in his book "The Fountains of Paradise" (which is about a space elevator). - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 16:12:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA11733; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:10:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:10:00 -0800 Message-ID: <401EE6EB.8020502@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:10:19 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202173332.01cb3e38@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202173332.01cb3e38@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5PsD-2.0.Ct2.NRk701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very reasonable reply. I had just one nit to pick. Jed Rothwell wrote: > The ribbon and platform would fall straight to earth, wouldn't they? > They are not moving relative to earth. They would not fall straight down. They are moving very, very fast relative to Earth. Let's work it out. Geosync orbit is about 25,000 miles up, or roughly 30,000 miles from the center of the earth. Circumference of the orbit is therefore about 180,000 miles give or take a bit, so velocity is about 180,000/24 = 80,000 mph, roughly speaking. Velocity of the surface of the Earth is about 4000*6/24 = 1,000 miles per hour. So, a geosynchronous platform is moving at about 79,000 MPH, or roughly Mach 100, relative to the point of the earth over which it's orbiting. Furthermore, _pulling_ it out of orbit with a heavy cable would actually accelerate it. It would be moving very, very fast when it touched down. > Why would they wrap around the earth? Well, see above -- at Mach 100, it would wind up like a rabid Yo-Yo... [Snipped the rest, with which I could generally agree] From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 16:21:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA19596; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:19:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:19:55 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:09:15 -0500 Subject: Dr. Eugene Mallove on National Radio Program, "Cost-to-Coast", tonight 2/2-2/3 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: Eugene Mallove , "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lorso3.0.2o4.hak701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For three hours live, Dr. Eugene Mallove will be the guest interviewed by host George Noory of the "Coast-to-Coast" nationally syndicated radio program. Live, for three hours from, 11 p.m. To 2 a.m. Pacific Time Live, for three hours from, 1 a.m. To 4 a.m. Central Time Live for three hours from 2 a.m. To 5 a.m. Eastern Time The many radio stations that carry this program may be found (on a convenient map) at the "Coast-to-Coast" web site -- go to "Affiliates": www.coasttocoastam.com The main topic will be New Energy -- the science and emerging technology -- as well as the heretical physics that is behind such emerging radically new alternative energies -- low-energy nuclear reactions (a.k.a. 'cold fusion'), vacuum (aether) energy, etc. The biological and medical implications of these energies will be discussed as well. Also to be talked about will be Dr. Mallove's experiences in attempting to interest the political candidates in New Energy technologies as an appropriate topic for public discourse. Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation) Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 www.infinite-energy.com editor@infinite-energy.com 603-485-4700 Fx: 603-485-4710 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 19:18:13 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA24018; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:14:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:14:30 -0800 Message-ID: <401F122F.9060306@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:14:55 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202173332.01cb3e38@pop.mindspring.com> <401EE6EB.8020502@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <401EE6EB.8020502@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kttZb2.0.At5.M8n701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oops. 80,000 mph is much greater than 7 miles/sec which is escape velocity at the surface. That should have tipped me off that my arithmetic was a tad inaccurate. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Very reasonable reply. I had just one nit to pick. > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> The ribbon and platform would fall straight to earth, wouldn't they? >> They are not moving relative to earth. > > > They would not fall straight down. They are moving very, very fast > relative to Earth. Let's work it out. > > Geosync orbit is about 25,000 miles up, or roughly 30,000 miles from the > center of the earth. Circumference of the orbit is therefore about > 180,000 miles give or take a bit, so velocity is about 180,000/24 = > 80,000 mph, roughly speaking. Let's try 8,000 mph for that. > Velocity of the surface of the Earth is about 4000*6/24 = 1,000 miles > per hour. > > So, a geosynchronous platform is moving at about 79,000 MPH, or roughly > Mach 100, Not quite. More like 7,000 MPH or about Mach 10. > relative to the point of the earth over which it's orbiting. > Furthermore, _pulling_ it out of orbit with a heavy cable would actually > accelerate it. > > It would be moving very, very fast when it touched down. Well, it would be moving very fast. Not, however, "very, very" fast. >> Why would they wrap around the earth? > > > Well, see above -- at Mach 100, it would wind up like a rabid Yo-Yo... But at mach 10 it would not be so bad. Still wouldn't fall straight down, however, and it would still accelerate on the way down, as the angle at which the cable dragged it dropped to less than 90 degrees from its line of motion. > > [Snipped the rest, with which I could generally agree] > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 20:21:18 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA08388; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:17:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:17:45 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:17:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA08286 Resent-Message-ID: <"22B0Y2.0.032.e3o701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:56:45 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk > > > [snip] > > I think the "space elevator" is obsolete before it even gets off the >drawing board. My primary reason for saying this is that I believe that anti-gravity craft already exist as black-ops craft. If so, then most of NASA is window dressing, and a space elevator would just be an even bigger white elephant, designed to block the view through the window. ;) > >What would make it obsolete? I do not know of any better alternatives. Even [snip] >The only thing I can image that might be better is an anti-gravity flying >machine. Which is precisely why it is obsolete. >Even that would have some problems with cost, safety, capacity and >air traffic control that would make it inferior to an elevator. With AG technology, you can build craft the size of ocean liners or larger with ease. No capacity problem. The fact that they can take off and land anywhere vertically, means there are no traffic control problems. Cost would be far less than that of a space elevator, and these things can move around when and where you want them. Furthermore, such technology obsoletes the concept of "orbit" altogether. One goes directly to one's destination. Only communications satellites use orbits, and even they will soon be obsolete, as AG technology also implies the ability to modulate gravity fields as a means of communication. >Anyway, as >far as I know, no one has convincingly demonstrated by experiment that >anti-gravity devices exist, and no theory says they can exist. Then theory must be wrong, because I've seen one flying. It's the sort of "in your face" experiment that you only need one of to be convincing (according to your own arguments re. CF). > >Regarding conventional rockets, Gene Mallove knows a great deal about this >subject. He wrote a book about it. Perhaps he can correct me, but as far as >I know, a CF powered rocket (or some other nuclear power, or zero point >energy) would have a smaller fuel tank than a chemical rocket, and a much >greater range. This would be a tremendous advantage traveling between >planets. The trip to the moon is fairly short anyway, but a nuclear rocket >could take off from moon to return to earth with a much larger payload. But >in a launch from earth to near space, it seems to me that chemical fuel is >just about as good as "ideal" nuclear power or ZPE. As long as the chemical >aircraft is safe and extremely unlikely to explode, and the fuel is >non-toxic, no-global-warming hydrogen and oxygen, what difference does it >make how many tons of fuel are required to reach orbit? We have unlimited >supplies of water. I think NASA presently uses hydrogen derived from fossil >fuel, but in the future it might use H2 and O2 from water. As you are I'm sure aware, the cost of rocket technology is not primarily the cost of the fuel. Even a space elevator would probably be cheaper in the long run. > >As far as I know, all of the proposed nuclear or CF earth-to-orbit rocket >design would still require huge amounts of inert fluid as a propellant. I The smartest move would be to use a jet-engine principle for the first stage, where most of the propellant mass consists of "sucked in" air. This works while the vehicle is low enough in the atmosphere that air is still available. All you need to provide is an extremely energy dense heating mechanism. (e.g. hydrinos?) [snip] >There are several well-known schemes to make rockets without engines, >powered by lasers or microwave energy from the ground. I believe the amount These are schemes dreamt up by people who are not "in the know", and are stuck in the current paradigm. [snip] >Here is a proposed laser rocket that would work as an air ramjet until it >reaches the edge of atmosphere, when an on-board supply of hydrogen is used >as propellant. This document says it would carry "substantially less" fluid >than a chemical rocket, but it does not say how much less: > >http://www.geocities.com/tonylance/liteship.html See above. [snip] >a practical point of view. Incidentally (pun intended) the elevator plans I >have seen call for ground based laser power, with on-board photovoltaic >conversion. CF would be a lot better, but elevator laser power would be >much safer and lower power than the laser rocket schemes call for. With a >laser rocket, if you miss the target (the collector), either the vehicle >begins to fall like a stone or you instantly incinerate the payload and >passengers. With an elevator, if you miss the target, the vehicle stops >climbing for a while, and sits there. If the laser fails completely and >cannot be repaired for days, all you do is release the brakes and roll back >down to earth. [snip] If you have an elevator, you can power it with electric cables built into the guideway. It essentially becomes an electric train that travels vertically. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 20:51:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA29813; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:42:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:42:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Element 115 "discovered" - old news??? Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:41:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <015401c3e995$70322800$f9ffa8c0@Craig> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA29652 Resent-Message-ID: <"9z0lB3.0.ZH7.4Ro701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 02 Feb 2004 12:07:29 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Wasn't it supposed to be fuel for the secret government >UFO's we stole from the aliens??? > >I guess it wasn't. A heavier isotope perhaps? It's hard to get enough neutrons into the nucleus, when you create them this way. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 05:21:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA05052; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:18:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:18:34 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:20:06 -0500 Subject: Mallove Program Tues/Wed evening -- not yesterday. From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZhXZM2.0.tE1.f-v701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry for giving out incorrect evening for program, It's tonight 2/3-2/4. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 09:13:39 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA05977; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:06:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:06:29 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203104041.01cb3f50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 11:12:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Fi7-t3.0.DT1.JKz701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk writes: > My primary reason for saying this is that I believe that anti-gravity craft > already exist as black-ops craft. I doubt it. I have read about many previous "black-ops" aircraft, computers, nuclear weapons and other technology. It has sometimes been impressive, but it has never been anything that would surprise an expert. It is never unexpected or fundamentally more advanced than ordinary civilian technology. In nearly every case I know of, even while the gadget was supposedly secret, you could read about it in the back pages of the New York Times or Aviation Today. Long before the B2 stealth bomber was made public, toy plastic models of it were on sale in Taiwan. The most famous "black-op" project of all was the atomic bomb, yet there were dozens of tell-tale signs of it in the scientific press in the late '30s and even during the war. I have a "Popular Science" type magazine from 1943 in which the editor wonders why the government is buying up all the uranium in sight. The government has many virtues, but innovation far ahead of the curve are not among them. > If so, then most of NASA is window dressing . . . That would be the most expensive, dangerous and wasteful window dressing in history. I cannot believe anyone would be that stupid. Besides, this "black-op" technology would be kept secret mainly because of its military applications. Secret weapons are rare, because in most cases they are pointless. The main purpose of the U.S. military is to deter or prevent wars, and a secret weapon does nothing to accomplish this. The Japanese built two famous "super battleships" in WWII, which they actually succeeded in keeping more or less secret. (The details were fuzzy at best.) The U.S. had no idea the "Yamato" participated in the Battle of Midway until long after the battle. They never saw the ship, so it did not frighten them or deter them. > Then theory must be wrong, because I've seen one flying. When and where? Tell us about it. Scott Chubb saw one too, described in I.E. magazine. It appears to have a conventional explanation, albeit interesting. He does not think it can be scaled up. Unless you witnessed a machine that can lift many kilograms, and you confirmed it carefully, up close, you should be very careful about drawing conclusions. > It's the sort of "in your face" experiment that you only need one of to > be convincing (according to your own arguments re. CF). I have seen some "in your face" excess heat experiments that seemed very convincing, but they turned out to be experimental error. Multiple replications are essential, even for such apparently clear-cut results as an anti-gravity toy or a Wright flying machine. I would not be convinced by a "toy" anti-gravity machine in one demonstration. As we saw during the failed Wright replication December 17, 2003, in the hands of most experts the Wright Flyer was not airplane at all; it was a mistake. At best, it was on the "ragged edge of airworthiness," and there had been dozens of uncontrollable, non-airworthy flying machines before 1903. If the Wrights had stopped in 1903, with that first machine, they would not really have invented flight, and their December 1903 flight would have been more of a useless daredevil stunt than a real test flight. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 10:04:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA05297; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:56:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:56:14 -0800 Message-ID: <401FE099.4060700@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:55:37 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203104041.01cb3f50@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203104041.01cb3f50@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8L3V3.0.hI1.-2-701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk writes: > > > Then theory must be wrong, because I've seen one flying. > > When and where? Tell us about it. The latest controversial sighting occured in Whittlesea, Australia: http://www.whittlesea.vic.gov.au/content/content.asp?cnid=1545 last week. View the large image by clicking on the caption. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 10:45:15 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA01572; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:38:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:38:06 -0800 Message-ID: <401FEA5B.8080405@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:37:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Fractal Logo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ejnFS.0.SO.Dg-701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's with the Google logo today. Is it Benoit Mandelbrot Day or something? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 12:02:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA19914; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:55:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:55:17 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203145318.01cb3740@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 14:54:46 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Fractal Logo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"srvw73.0.ts4.Yo_701"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When you move the cursor to the Google logo, it says "Gaston Julia." That turns out to be a mathematician. See: http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Julia.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 13:22:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA00776; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:14:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:14:29 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:18:25 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Coral on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"sBayE.0.zB.qy0801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: The Opportunity Sol 9 microscopic images show white "rocks" that look like they have complex internal structures, like coral. One piece in the upper right of various frames looks like it may even be a branching coral. Microscopic images of soil from Spirit look like they may show structures not inconsistent with coral-like animals, though the similarity to earth coral is far less pronounced. It seems strange to me that so many rocks have holes in them, regardless of the size of the rocks. Vulcansim (expanding gas bubbles in ejecta) can possibly explain most of the holes, but the the tendency for tube like formations with central hollows is not as readily explained by vulcanism. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 13:40:12 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA13695; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:33:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:33:17 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 08:25:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203104041.01cb3f50@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203104041.01cb3f50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA13509 Resent-Message-ID: <"3ZuYt2.0.lL3.QE1801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 03 Feb 2004 11:12:11 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk writes: > > > My primary reason for saying this is that I believe that anti-gravity craft > > already exist as black-ops craft. > [snip] > > If so, then most of NASA is window dressing . . . > >That would be the most expensive, dangerous and wasteful window dressing in >history. Indeed. And political suicide if it ever got out. >I cannot believe anyone would be that stupid. What's that saying again..."nobody ever went broke underestimating the general public"? >Besides, this >"black-op" technology would be kept secret mainly because of its military >applications. Precisely. >Secret weapons are rare, because in most cases they are >pointless. The main purpose of the U.S. military is to deter or prevent >wars, and a secret weapon does nothing to accomplish this. No, the main purpose of any military is as a political instrument. They are used just as frequently offensively as defensively. >The Japanese >built two famous "super battleships" in WWII, which they actually succeeded >in keeping more or less secret. (The details were fuzzy at best.) The U.S. >had no idea the "Yamato" participated in the Battle of Midway until long >after the battle. They never saw the ship, so it did not frighten them or >deter them. Sort of messes with your argument then doesn't it (since the ship proved useful, despite being kept secret). The value of secrecy lies in surprise. If your enemy doesn't know what you've got, then they can't prepare for it. > > > > Then theory must be wrong, because I've seen one flying. > >When and where? Tell us about it. I have already reported it previously on this list. >Scott Chubb saw one too, described in >I.E. magazine. It appears to have a conventional explanation, albeit >interesting. He does not think it can be scaled up. Unless you witnessed a >machine that can lift many kilograms, and you confirmed it carefully, up >close, you should be very careful about drawing conclusions. When you see one in flight, hovering, and not falling out of the air, that pretty much proves the point IMO. It's like your atom bomb example. You don't need a second one to know that it works (at least sometimes). > > > > It's the sort of "in your face" experiment that you only need one of to > > be convincing (according to your own arguments re. CF). > >I have seen some "in your face" excess heat experiments that seemed very >convincing, but they turned out to be experimental error. Multiple >replications are essential, even for such apparently clear-cut results as >an anti-gravity toy or a Wright flying machine. This was way up in the air (viewed through binoculars), and certainly no toy. > I would not be convinced >by a "toy" anti-gravity machine in one demonstration. Nor would I. In fact my first thought would be a "levitron" type setup. >As we saw during the >failed Wright replication December 17, 2003, in the hands of most experts >the Wright Flyer was not airplane at all; it was a mistake. At best, it was >on the "ragged edge of airworthiness," and there had been dozens of >uncontrollable, non-airworthy flying machines before 1903. If the Wrights >had stopped in 1903, with that first machine, they would not really have >invented flight, and their December 1903 flight would have been more of a >useless daredevil stunt than a real test flight. > >- Jed > Not applicable. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 14:17:32 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA00791; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:09:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:09:08 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Coral on Mars? Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:33:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"zQ_0C.0.CC.3m1801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Indeed, Horace has the right idea here folks, stop looking for pyramids and start looking for micro-organisms... One thing that struck me from the initial pictures, I would expect that had the locations been dry lake beds that one would see more water polished rocks. What I see are many sharp rocks, suggesting that the rovers may not be in ancient lake beds. That said, those rocks do sort of look like corral. Let's see what happens when the rover gets roving over to the "sedimentary rock" and starts prospecting for fossils. We already suspect such a thing from martian meteorites found here on earth, imagine finding something in-situ. By the way, what causes the bead shaped rocks to form, and why do they have dimples or holes in them? Are they lava droplets? K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 4:18 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Coral on Mars? The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: The Opportunity Sol 9 microscopic images show white "rocks" that look like they have complex internal structures, like coral. One piece in the upper right of various frames looks like it may even be a branching coral. Microscopic images of soil from Spirit look like they may show structures not inconsistent with coral-like animals, though the similarity to earth coral is far less pronounced. It seems strange to me that so many rocks have holes in them, regardless of the size of the rocks. Vulcansim (expanding gas bubbles in ejecta) can possibly explain most of the holes, but the the tendency for tube like formations with central hollows is not as readily explained by vulcanism. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 15:11:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA06832; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:06:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:06:38 -0800 Message-ID: <40200EDC.7000601@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:13:00 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Mars Vulcanism? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vXZvG.0.Vg1.zb2801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52906 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I thought Mars had no active volcanoes. If so, what is spewing from this opening and darkening the surface? http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_v.jpg Zoom in on the top of the dark area to the left. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 15:12:10 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA06669; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:06:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:06:29 -0800 Message-ID: <40200331.8010507@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:23:13 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fractal Logo References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203145318.01cb3740@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203145318.01cb3740@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7mIZj.0.0e1.qb2801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > When you move the cursor to the Google logo, it says "Gaston Julia." Ah! Father of the Julia Set. Happy 110th birthday, Gaston! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 15:12:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA06909; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:06:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:06:43 -0800 Message-ID: <40201D7B.4080001@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:15:23 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bSCq_2.0.uh1.2c2801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52907 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >The Opportunity Sol 9 microscopic images show white "rocks" that look like >they have complex internal structures, like coral. > The microscopic images from Opportunity Sol 10 even have some spherical pieces. http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m010.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 15:14:18 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA06982; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:06:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:06:48 -0800 Message-ID: <40201DDF.6080908@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:17:03 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NY3PQ2.0.xi1.7c2801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52908 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >but the the tendency for tube like >formations with central hollows is not as readily explained by vulcanism. > Have you ever been clamming? ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 19:06:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA21921; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:01:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:01:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:01:29 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"4YZNT2.0.TM5.W26801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52909 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Also check the PanCam images form sol 10. Boring looking shots of nothing but grit on the ground, but look closer - those spherical whitish pieces seen in the micro-photographs are common, and seem to range in size a bit. Looks like Opportunity landed on a beach. Cowabunga! - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 19:08:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA24032; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:04:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:04:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40201D7B.4080001@rtpatlanta.com> References: <40201D7B.4080001@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:46:48 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA23900 Resent-Message-ID: <"H6cQI3.0.Ot5.156801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52910 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - >The microscopic images from Opportunity Sol 10 even have some spherical pieces. Yeah, a spherical piece with hints of *radial* and and other orientations of regular ridge-like structures. A second piece in the lower left that's roughly spherical shows similar structure in even higher relief. Fossils I think. Maybe some sort of crystal formations, ever see those Red River mineral "roses"? Naw, I think those are probably fossils from Martian life forms. Those images look just like a close-up look at a beach here with some black (volcanic) sand and bits of tumbled broken up coral/beachrock pieces with all the little holes from worms and such - looks exactly like that. Those microscopic images are about a half inch across, I think. The sphere is pretty small. This is exciting. Unless those subtle ridge structures are some sort of photo artifact or crystal growth, the best explanation is it's a fossil. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 19:28:59 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA13089; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:26:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:26:16 -0800 Message-ID: <40205E9B.70301@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:53:15 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ql1Lj3.0.OC3.MP6801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52911 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There's no question that Mars is rich in life, artifacts, and fossils. Look at this rock from the Pathfinder mission. It looks like it was encrusted with barnacles: http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA01409.jpg Examine the images from all the missions in detail using the program ACDSee or XV to zoom and pan and color stretch, you'll see wonders -- an alternate reality that defies description. There are many "rocks" with two holes. Examine them closely. You'll see critters emerging therefrom at different times. There are thousands of triangular tent like structures (they look like triangular rocks with the apex straight up). In some cases there are lobster-claw like creatures (half plant, half animal, I call "Grelber Sentries" guarding the openings). I think most of the activity is underground, and many of these features are portals to the underground. I've only scratched the surface, so to speak, here. I've identified at least 26 different kinds of life forms (by seeing the same morphology multiple times in multiple missions with multiple sun and camera angles, etc). They vary from near terrestrial ocean like entities (turtles, alligator like, squid etc.) to the truly bizarre, besting science fiction writers. If you zoom and pan carefully on this image, you can find hundreds of anomalies, including a real rectilinear sewer grating in the bottom of the wash, including shadows into the hole below. http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/tiff/PIA01001.tif Horace Heffner wrote: >...The Opportunity Sol 9 microscopic images show white "rocks" that look like >they have complex internal structures, like coral. One piece in the upper >right of various frames looks like it may even be a branching coral... > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 19:52:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA10087; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:45:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:45:56 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203163327.01cb3be8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:54:27 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6pdJb.0.GT2.oh6801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52912 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: > > > Then theory must be wrong, because I've seen one flying. > > > > When and where? Tell us about it. > > > The latest controversial sighting occured in Whittlesea, Australia: > > http://www.whittlesea.vic.gov.au/content/content.asp?cnid=1545 That is interesting, but it proves nothing about antigravity. It is a photo of a UFO. "Unidentified" means no one knows what it is or how it works. For all anyone knows, this might be a man-made aircraft using conventional jet engines. Robin van Spaandonk writes: > >That would be the most expensive, dangerous and wasteful window dressing in > >history. > > Indeed. And political suicide if it ever got out. Indeed. And that is why we can be absolutely, positively certain it would get out. No secret of this magnitude could be kept in Washington DC for more than five minutes. If the Democrats kept it secret, the Republicans would tell, and vice versa. Whichever party broke this news would then be re-elected for 20 years, even if members of their own party had previously taken part in the cover up. Nothing stays secret in Washington for long. Even the atomic bomb program was widely known about by 1943, in the U.S. the U.K. and the Soviet Union, which was not supposed to hear about it. Even Japanese physicists heard rumors about it that turned out to be fairly accurate. Within a few days after the bomb went off, Time magazine reporters assembled loose ends and prepared a report that was too detailed to pass wartime censorship. Let us be realistic about this. Antigravity would be as valuable to society as cold fusion. It would be worth trillions to the US economy. Overseas sales of the technology would wipe out our trade deficit, and increased income would cancel much of the national debt as well. It would revolutionize every industry on earth. It would be welcomed by most industries; there is no DoE antigravity research program like hot fusion that would oppose this particular innovation. I could believe that antigravity is being suppressed for some unknown reason in the experiments performed on a small scale by a handful of mavericks outside the establishment. This is what is happening to CF, after all, although the controversy is no secret, and anyone can learn as much as he wants about CF research. But I cannot believe that antigravity has actually been developed into a practical device, capable of carrying people. A breakthrough on this scale would require the cooperation of thousands -- perhaps hundreds of thousands -- of top experts in many fields, especially aviation. It would take years to develop. If word leaked, reporters would consider this to be one of the greatest scoops in the history of journalism. Yet not one word of it has leaked, and not one person in the establishment -- not a single engineer, congressman, army general or politician -- has spoken a word of this to the press, and not one has asked himself whether it would not benefit the nation more as a commercial product than as a military secret. And this is despite the fact that Washington DC is notorious for not being able to keep secrets, even trivial ones. > >I cannot believe anyone would be that stupid. > > What's that saying again..."nobody ever went broke underestimating the general public"? I think people are a lot smarter than you think. They seldom exercise their intelligence because there seldom any need for them to do so. > >pointless. The main purpose of the U.S. military is to deter or prevent > >wars, and a secret weapon does nothing to accomplish this. > > No, the main purpose of any military is as a political instrument. They are used just as frequently offensively as defensively. No democracy can sustain an offensive policy for long. The voters will not stand for it. If the U.S. fights another "war of choice" before the election, there will not be another Republican president or Congress for a generation. The "neo-cons" who think the U.S. can act like an old-fashioned Empire have lost their minds. > >had no idea the "Yamato" participated in the Battle of Midway until long > >after the battle. They never saw the ship, so it did not frighten them or > >deter them. > > Sort of messes with your argument then doesn't it (since the ship proved useful, despite being kept secret). You miss the point. The ship did not participate. It was hundreds of miles away, lurking the background. This was partly because Adm. Yamamoto wanted to keep it secret until last moment. It had no effect on Midway or any other. By the time the Japanese decided to fully unveil this secret weapon, the U.S. was ready to sink it with the loss of 5 or 6 airplanes, as I recall. > The value of secrecy lies in surprise. This doctrine has seldom actually worked in war, with the possible exception of the Battle of the Bulge. Generally speaking, battles in war and business are more like chess than poker: you can usually see your opponent's pieces. Deception has often worked, but not secrets. The difference is subtle. For example, it was never a secret that the U.S. and England planned to invade Europe in 1944. Everyone knew there were thousands of troops assembled and millions of tons of equipment stockpiled for that purpose. You might say the chess pieces were in full view. (German Diesel-engine recon airplanes flew too high to be shot down.) But the exact date and target were kept concealed by means of deception, and fortuitous bad weather. Secrets seldom do any good in business either, even though many companies are obsessed with them, and the U.S. gov't is trying to extradite a Japanese researcher because he took DNA samples from a U.S. lab while studying Alzheimer's disease, for crying out loud. (The notion that DNA can be considered a trade secret boggles the mind, and it flouts the traditions of academic science.) http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/archive/200205/03/20020503p2a00m0fp017000c.html http://www.innocentserizawa.org > If your enemy doesn't know what you've got, then they can't prepare for it. It is impossible to keep an enemy from knowing what you have. It was extremely difficult in the past, and with today's world-wide media, open societies, and reconnaissance, it is impossible. At most, you can fool people into thinking you have things you do not really have, such as thousands of tons of WMD. You cannot hide actual weapons as big as aircraft or ships. > >machine that can lift many kilograms, and you confirmed it carefully, up > >close, you should be very careful about drawing conclusions. > > When you see one in flight, hovering, and not falling out of the air, that pretty much proves the point IMO. Not necessarily. You have to prove there is no action-reaction of any sort, i.e. no moving air or streams of ions. > It's like your atom bomb example. You don't need a second one to > know that it works (at least sometimes). I agree, it could be as obvious as an atomic bomb. For example, suppose a vehicle as large as an automobile hovers for several minutes in the air within a few meters away from you, or just over your head, yet you feel no wind and you were not killed by a giant flux of high-energy particles. That would definitely prove there is no propellant (no action-reaction holding the machine up). Anything short of that, such as seeing a vehicle in the distance, proves nothing. Such evidence may be suggestive, but it proves nothing. Here at the PDK airport I can stand 30 meters behind a large executive jet while it revvs up both engines, blowing great clouds of leaves into the air (as one is doing just now outside my window). Yet I feel nothing. No wind at all. And the engines are remarkably quiet. The U.S. has helicopters that can hover 100 meters over your head so quietly you can barely hear them. > This was way up in the air (viewed through binoculars), and certainly no toy. At that distance there is no way you can confirm there was no propellant. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 20:28:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA16855; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:22:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:22:58 -0800 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:29:27 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200402032329.27050.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"y2PcF3.0.D74.XE7801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52913 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 02 February 2004 23:17, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:56:45 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] > > >Robin van Spaandonk > > > > > [snip] > > > I think the "space elevator" is obsolete before it even gets off the > > > >drawing board. > > My primary reason for saying this is that I believe that anti-gravity craft > already exist as black-ops craft. If so, then most of NASA is window > dressing, and a space elevator would just be an even bigger white elephant, > designed to block the view through the window. ;) > > >What would make it obsolete? I do not know of any better alternatives. > > Even > > [snip] > > >The only thing I can image that might be better is an anti-gravity flying > >machine. > > Which is precisely why it is obsolete. > > >Even that would have some problems with cost, safety, capacity and > >air traffic control that would make it inferior to an elevator. > > With AG technology, you can build craft the size of ocean liners or larger > with ease. No capacity problem. The fact that they can take off and land > anywhere vertically, means there are no traffic control problems. Cost > would be far less than that of a space elevator, and these things can move > around when and where you want them. Furthermore, such technology obsoletes > the concept of "orbit" altogether. One goes directly to one's destination. > Only communications satellites use orbits, and even they will soon be > obsolete, as AG technology also implies the ability to modulate gravity > fields as a means of communication. > > >Anyway, as > >far as I know, no one has convincingly demonstrated by experiment that > >anti-gravity devices exist, and no theory says they can exist. > > Then theory must be wrong, because I've seen one flying. It's the sort of > "in your face" experiment that you only need one of to be convincing > (according to your own arguments re. CF). > > >Regarding conventional rockets, Gene Mallove knows a great deal about this > >subject. He wrote a book about it. Perhaps he can correct me, but as far > > as I know, a CF powered rocket (or some other nuclear power, or zero > > point energy) would have a smaller fuel tank than a chemical rocket, and > > a much greater range. This would be a tremendous advantage traveling > > between planets. The trip to the moon is fairly short anyway, but a > > nuclear rocket could take off from moon to return to earth with a much > > larger payload. But in a launch from earth to near space, it seems to me > > that chemical fuel is just about as good as "ideal" nuclear power or ZPE. > > As long as the chemical aircraft is safe and extremely unlikely to > > explode, and the fuel is non-toxic, no-global-warming hydrogen and > > oxygen, what difference does it make how many tons of fuel are required > > to reach orbit? We have unlimited supplies of water. I think NASA > > presently uses hydrogen derived from fossil fuel, but in the future it > > might use H2 and O2 from water. > > As you are I'm sure aware, the cost of rocket technology is not primarily > the cost of the fuel. Even a space elevator would probably be cheaper in > the long run. > > >As far as I know, all of the proposed nuclear or CF earth-to-orbit rocket > >design would still require huge amounts of inert fluid as a propellant. I > > The smartest move would be to use a jet-engine principle for the first > stage, where most of the propellant mass consists of "sucked in" air. > This works while the vehicle is low enough in the atmosphere that air is > still available. All you need to provide is an extremely energy dense > heating mechanism. (e.g. hydrinos?) > [snip] > > >There are several well-known schemes to make rockets without engines, > >powered by lasers or microwave energy from the ground. I believe the > > amount > > These are schemes dreamt up by people who are not "in the know", and are > stuck in the current paradigm. [snip] > > >Here is a proposed laser rocket that would work as an air ramjet until it > >reaches the edge of atmosphere, when an on-board supply of hydrogen is > > used as propellant. This document says it would carry "substantially > > less" fluid than a chemical rocket, but it does not say how much less: > > > >http://www.geocities.com/tonylance/liteship.html > > See above. > [snip] > > >a practical point of view. Incidentally (pun intended) the elevator plans > > I have seen call for ground based laser power, with on-board photovoltaic > > conversion. CF would be a lot better, but elevator laser power would be > > much safer and lower power than the laser rocket schemes call for. With a > > laser rocket, if you miss the target (the collector), either the vehicle > > begins to fall like a stone or you instantly incinerate the payload and > > passengers. With an elevator, if you miss the target, the vehicle stops > > climbing for a while, and sits there. If the laser fails completely and > > cannot be repaired for days, all you do is release the brakes and roll > > back down to earth. > > [snip] > If you have an elevator, you can power it with electric cables built into > the guideway. It essentially becomes an electric train that travels > vertically. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of > humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." > > George Monbiot > (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) regarding electric cables in the guideway or thereabouts, any cable 6 x 10^5 miles long will have a terrific heating and voltage drop problem at even half that distance. The laser looks more efficient a power transmission medium for those distances. Most laser drive ideas seem to revolve about ground based lasers and a sea based cable. This seems a failure mechanism as the sea has waves however small. This can produce aiming problems that must be compensated for continually. Why not use space based laser power with the driving power coming from solar panels in space. In space there never is wind or waves to create problems, and comounting the laser in space with the cable would make a better arrangement. Would really ruin your day if as a passenger you witnessed a ground based laser lose its aim and cut the cable upon which you were riding......... Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 23:09:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA03245; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:05:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:05:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <401EC9C5.3090401@pobox.com> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> <401EC9C5.3090401@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 01:05:54 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"JCDxf1.0.co.nc9801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52914 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is it possible to make a material strong enough to do this? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 00:38:49 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA05493; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:36:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:36:23 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:31:20 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Coral on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"jiQKc1.0.nL1.7yA801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52915 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: The Opportunity Sol 9 microscopic images show white "rocks" that look like they have complex internal structures, like coral. One piece in the upper right of various frames looks like it may even be a branching coral. Microscopic images of soil from Spirit look like they may show structures not inconsistent with coral-like animals, though the similarity to earth coral is far less pronounced. It seems strange to me the so many rocks have holes in them, regardless of the size of the rocks. Vulcansim (expanding gas bubbles in ejecta) can possibly explain most of the holes, but the the tendency for tube like formations with central hollows is not as readily explained by vulcanism. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 02:46:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA28736; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:44:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:44:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 18:59:29 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mars Vulcanism? Resent-Message-ID: <"oK-55.0.w07.AqC801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52916 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:13 PM 2/3/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >I thought Mars had no active volcanoes. If so, what is spewing from >this opening and darkening the surface? It's possible the apparent smoke is actually a light streak on the ground. Another photo would be very helpful. The black stuff around the hole sure looks like it was emitted by the hole though. The only question is when? It seems like it must have been recently, geologically speaking, because the rest of the area appears to have been dusted by the wind, with accumulations to the leeward, and the prevailing wind direction does not appear to jive with the direction the black stuff took. It must have been laid down by a single event. > >http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_v.jpg > >Zoom in on the top of the dark area to the left. OTOH, it could be a smokestack from a subterranean power plant! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 05:42:39 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA14188; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 05:39:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 05:39:35 -0800 Message-ID: <4020F5F1.7090007@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 08:38:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars Vulcanism? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GjXAc2.0.ZT3.NOF801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52917 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >OTOH, it could be a smokestack from a subterranean power plant! 8^) > Well, you might want to reconsider that smiley face icon! ;-) The image which I had earlier said had a step pyramid (similar to Snofru's in Egypt) and an underground entrance: http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_p.jpg also shows the "volcano" from another angle. So, now we have an underground entrance with a smokestack nearby. Interesting that the pyramid and entrance are cropped from the first "volcano" image I mentioned. "Few men even considered the possibility of life on other planets and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us." -HG Wells, WOTW From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 05:56:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA22240; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 05:52:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 05:52:23 -0800 Message-ID: <4020F934.8060106@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 08:52:52 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> <401EC9C5.3090401@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yG27M3.0.PR5.NaF801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52918 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Is it possible to make a material strong enough to do this? Jed's mentioned a web site where they've worked out a lot of these issues and have a proposal for a first-generation space elevator: http://www.isr.us/SEHome.asp You should check it out for more information -- my knowledge is all years out of date on this topic. With that cautionary note out of the way, my understanding is that "Bucky tubes" -- long tubular molecules made of carbon atoms -- appear to be strong enough. I think the problem of lateral thrust also admits of a solution, at least on paper. However I don't know what that solution might be. (Lifting something to geosynchronous orbit requires accelerating it sideways to Mach 10 or something close to it, which puts considerable lateral stress on the ribbon; the resulting "wiggle" must be damped somehow or it turns into Galloping Gertie.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 06:12:39 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA01181; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 06:09:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 06:09:56 -0800 Message-ID: <4020FD10.5060505@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:09:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203163327.01cb3be8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203163327.01cb3be8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AYutf2.0.NI.pqF801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52919 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton writes: > > > http://www.whittlesea.vic.gov.au/content/content.asp?cnid=1545 > > That is interesting, but it proves nothing about antigravity. It wasn't intended to prove anything. However, there is much anecdotal information to support Robin's position, including an alleged quote from the Skunkwork's Ben Rich: "We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projects and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity…" Here is one of the more interesting papers on the subject: http://users.erols.com/iri/Loder.htm Loder used to be a prof at Univ of New Hampshire; but, I think he's in Alaska now. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 07:07:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA06679; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:03:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:03:33 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204094733.00b13700@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 10:03:14 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"bsTuQ2.0.Ie1.4dG801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52920 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Is it possible to make a material strong enough to do this? Maybe. Possibly. We hope so. Standing Bear writes: > The laser looks more efficient a power transmission > medium for those distances. Most laser drive ideas seem to > revolve about ground based lasers and a sea based cable. > This seems a failure mechanism as the sea has waves however small. I think the idea is to use low powered lasers, so if they miss, there will be no harm done. > This can produce aiming problems that must be compensated > for continually. Why not use space based laser power > with the driving power coming from solar panels in space. I think this is a weight issue. The first implementation would have only 990 kg payload capacity. This would be used to gradually haul up additional cables, bootstrapping to higher capacity, but at first they want to keep the weight down to a minimum. PVs designed for lasers are very efficient. The PV panels shown in the drawing look too small for solar. And if you had solar panels, they would have to be in addition to the laser ones, since you need a laser during the first stage in the atmosphere. Where would you put the additional set of panels? Whether you hang them from the cable or place them on board the vehicle, they add to the weight burden. I doubt you could put them on orbiting satellites that zap the moving vehicle. Stephen A. Lawrence writes: > I think the problem of lateral thrust also admits of a solution, at > least on paper. However I don't know what that solution might be. > (Lifting something to geosynchronous orbit requires accelerating it > sideways to Mach 10 or something close to it . . . I assume this is controllable because the vehicle travels slowly (compared to a rocket), acceleration is gradual, and excitation is dampened. It is kind of like the Democratic primary campaigns for the presidency. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 07:21:49 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA15730; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:16:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:16:40 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c3eb31$c90ec8a0$ae49ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203163327.01cb3be8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:14:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"Gmphq3.0.kr3.OpG801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52921 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some thoughts about this chatter about antigravity, secrets, UFOs, and the Whittlesea image: The dot in the sky in the Whittlesea image, on enlargement, has the form which has been seen countless times as a 'flying saucer' and Jed correctly and narrowly labels it a 'UFO' because it is "unknown", as if that tells us anything useful. Now the context is that the image was acquired by a technician taking a routine photo, and the 'UFO' was discovered afterward; presumably it was not staged, or the result of digital manipulation. http://www.ufoartwork.com/ leads to a website of images of 'UFO's in artwork dating centuries ago which have the same or similar forms. I have Hurley's book at hand, which contains an interesting collection of artwork from many times and places which strongly suggest that these 'things in the sky' are not just from the recent decades. So how is one to understand the repeated appearance in Earth's skies, over centuries, of manufactured objects capable of glowing, hovering, and moving with great speed? They certainly left an impression at various times as to be incorporated into significant religious art and official records. One of the paintings in Hurley's collection is from a 1595 painting in which God and Jesus are depicted with a spherical blue object with carefully detailed antennae sticking out, much like a version of Sputnik. While Jed has been a stout defender of the existence of LENR (as I have), he is quick to reject eyewitness accounts of radical behavior of these 'UFOs'. To be fair with Jed, he requires that anything must be replicated by many sources to be truly 'believed'. Stephen Greer and his Disclosure Project has a stable of eyewitnesses to various aspects of black ops programs. He believes the government is sitting on useful alien propulsion and energy technology and he is trying to get a congressional hearing to override security oaths and force public disclosure. The existence of Greer and his witnesses is partial evidence of Jed's assertion that big secrets can't be kept, but some can and were, like the fact the British broke the Enigma Cipher, even though Churchill sacrificed Coventry to keep that secret. He knew the raid was coming, but if the city were evacuated, it would signal that Enigma had been compromised. One conjecture is that the existence of alien propulsion and energy technology is well known -- all you have to do is stop denying the many anecdotal accounts -- but attempts to duplicate even recovered devices using technology of which we haven't a clue -- as evidenced by routine denial of evidence -- can be at least frustrating and at most extremely dangerous. The general knowledge of how to build an implosion A-bomb is no secret; we are protected by the engineering difficulties of making an effective device. We are having enough problems handling the existence of nuclear technology, and some might wish that fission never happened. Consider that the alien technology may be quite more dangerous in our present state of civilization. Meanwhile, LENR and BlackLight Power may give us the energy technologies necessary for a prosperous humanity without opening a Pandora's Box. To talk about "antigravity" is misleading, a handy catchword, when we really don't have a clue about the actual technology and what it can or cannot do. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 07:31:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA24181; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:27:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:27:53 -0800 Message-ID: <002001c3eb33$59c4b930$ae49ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204094733.00b13700@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:27:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"n4ksW.0.gv5.uzG801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52922 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear writes: > > > The laser looks more efficient a power transmission > > medium for those distances. Most laser drive ideas seem to > > revolve about ground based lasers and a sea based cable. > > This seems a failure mechanism as the sea has waves however small. The notion of a Solar Sail propelled by a laser cannon was used in an ingenious novel "The Mote in God's Eye". The basic problem is that all the laser technologies we have are very inefficient. Beam energies in the kilowatt range can be produced for weapons, but the energy input to the laser is another order of magnitude higher. While the much-maligned SDI program advanced the technology of adaptive optics to prevent laser weapon energy from being dispersed by atmospheric diffraction, it is still a long jump to getting useful energy to an orbital target. BTW, the recent discussion about allowing the Hubble to die is partly supported by the development of adaptive optics (starting from SDI) which enables terrestrial optical telescopes to reach performance levels close to the Hubble. However, such optics to not change the fact that important parts of the electromagnetic spectrum are blocked by the Earth's atmosphere. Mike Carrel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 09:15:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA06482; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:09:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:09:00 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204102442.00b13610@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:08:48 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oAUT_2.0.7b1.hSI801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52923 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > So how is one to understand the repeated appearance in Earth's skies, over > centuries, of manufactured objects capable of glowing, hovering, and moving > with great speed? They certainly left an impression at various times as to > be incorporated into significant religious art and official records. I do not think that proves anything. Many nonexistent objects, animals, people and phenomena are incorporated in religious art, official records, folk mythology, urban myths, the ERAB report, CIA estimates of WMD, and so on, and so forth. People are prone to making things up. I just read an account of the U.S. written by the first Japanese observers to make an official state visit, in 1860. It is chock full of non-existent things and preposterous notions, based on first-hand mistaken observations. > While Jed has been a stout defender of the existence of LENR (as I have), he > is quick to reject eyewitness accounts of radical behavior of these 'UFOs'. I do not reject them! I agree with Arthur Clarke and Chris Tinsley, two notoriously open-minded people. We cannot say what UFOs are, who made them, or what causes them, because they are unidentified. As far as I know, most of the radical behavior could be replicated with conventional reactive jets. No one has gotten close enough to confirm they produce no downward wind, and as I said, a person can stand close behind jet engines powerful enough to lift thousands of pounds, and not feel a thing. In rare cases, extremely rapid UFO acceleration has been reported that would require not only anti-gravity, but gravity fields that prevent objects and passengers on board from being crushed. I do not think these rare cases have been verified, but I do not know much about the subject. > To be fair with Jed, he requires that anything must be replicated by many > sources to be truly 'believed'. Or rejected. > The existence of Greer and his witnesses is partial evidence of > Jed's assertion that big secrets can't be kept . . . The existence of hundreds of deeply embarrassing revelations and countless political scandals is even better evidence. If Washington or London could cover things up this easily, surely they would have invented fake evidence of WMD in Iraq by now. That would be easy to arrange. . . . but some can and were, like > the fact the British broke the Enigma Cipher, even though Churchill > sacrificed Coventry to keep that secret. He knew the raid was coming, but if > the city were evacuated, it would signal that Enigma had been compromised. The British kept Enigma a secret for a very good reason. Their Enigma code breaking was still in operational use, long after the war. After the war they sold thousands of surplus German Enigma coding machines to their allies and to various small countries, telling them the code was unbreakable. Then they intercepted the diplomatic and military traffic from these countries and broke it. This is not something they like to talk about. More generally, Enigma-style rotor coding machines were still in use into the 1970s even in the U.S., so the techniques used to break them still had operational value. Recent books on cryptography say the "Coventry" story is a myth. At that phase in the war Enigma did not reveal such detailed information about day-to-day operations, especially from fixed bases (non-mobile troops). In other words, the Germans did not use radios to issue orders to bomber squadrons about the target of the day. Even if specific strike orders came from Berlin, they would go by landlines, using a different code designed for teletype machines. I do not think the allies ever broke that code, because there were so few opportunities to intercept samples of it. > To talk about "antigravity" is misleading, a handy catchword, when we really > don't have a clue about the actual technology and what it can or cannot do. I still doubt the actual technology exists, but in any case when I say "antigravity" I mean something quite specific: a reactionless drive. That is, an aircraft or ship engine that does not spew out a stream of fluid with M*V equal and opposite to the vehicle's M*V. As far as I know, such a drive is physically impossible, and no one has ever discovered or demonstrated such a thing. Of course I am aware of claims about spinning superconductors and the like, but AS FAR AS I KNOW, these claims have not been replicated, so I do not believe them -- or dismiss them. As for theories and sensible sounding explanations, the only credible ones I know of were made by Aspden and Laithwaite. I have great respect for both of them. Aspden's papers on Ferromagnetism and "virtual inertia" are amazing and inexplicable, and I wish people would pay attention to them, but they are not "proof" that a reactionless drive can exist. They fall far short of that. It seems to me that people interested in these subjects -- such as the audience in this forum -- should be prepared to stay undecided indefinitely. We simply cannot know whether UFOs are real, or what drives them, without more information. It is fruitful to speculate about them, but as I see it, anyone who says: "I am sure UFOs do exist" or "I am sure UFOs do not exist" has reached a conclusion without sufficient evidence. People who claim to be undecided about subjects such as CF or evolution, which admit to direct, hands-on experimental tests, are wishy-washy moral cowards, or they are ignorant, or they have a stake in denying the truth. People who still claim Iraq is still likely to have WMD do not understand the logical principle that you cannot prove a negative, but after a while it is safe to reach a likely conclusion based on direct experiments and observations. After spending hundreds of millions of dollars, we can physically search through a significant fraction of all potential hiding places for WMD in Iraq, so we can draw a likely conclusion, whereas all of the military budgets in the world would not suffice to search even a tiny fraction of the places UFOs might be hiding. Furthermore, creatures capable of crossing interstellar space would probably be better at hiding things and defeating radar than Saddam Hussein was. This debate reminds me a little of second-rate SF speculation about interstellar wars, such as the movie "Independence Day." Between groups of people, a 20-year advantage in military technology is usually overwhelming. In a few encounters during WWII, 1918-style biplanes and cavalry fought against 1940 machinery. It was wiped out without casualties on the winning side. The US Navy eliminated entire Spanish fleets of warships in 1898 without casualties, and in the Opium Wars a handful of British ships easily defeated millions of Chinese. I can imagine that a civilization capable of crossing interstellar space might be peaceful and unaggressive, and its ships might carry no weapons and all. But their knowledge of science would have to be thousands of years ahead of us, possibly millions of years, and any weapons they *did* make would be utterly invincible. I never carry weapons myself, and the only thing I have killed in the last ten years was a bee colony that unfortunately took up residence inside my house, and six mice, likewise. If interstellar travelers had any reason to attack us, I am sure they could do it as effectively as I can wipe out a bees and mice, with absolutely no danger to themselves and no effective means of opposition by us. They would murmur a command to their weapons control computers, and we would vanish. Speculation that UFOs are trying to hide, but they occasionally slip up and reveal themselves -- a cosmic "wardrobe malfunction," as it were -- or they are playing a game of cosmic peek-a-boo, or their machines sometimes malfunction and crash all seems highly unlikely to me. It is anthropocentric and myopic. Such things can only happen with our own primitive and unreliable technologies, not with systems thousands of years more advanced than ours. I suppose machines capable of interstellar navigation would be a million times too reliable to crash. I mean that literally. The event would be comparable to having all four wheels of a modern automobile spontaneously and simultaneously fall off while driving at 60 mph. Roughly 300 million cars have been driven every day for decades. Yet as far as I know, that has never happened. (One wheel has often fallen off, but not all four.) Some failure modes can be eliminated, even by us, even though we are only 200 years into the Industrial revolution. We can safely predict that human-made flying machines, automobiles and the like 10 or 20 thousand years from now will NEVER significantly malfunction or crash, and if for some inexplicable reason we decide to hide these vehicles from 20-century style radar or visual observations, our mechanisms for doing that will never fail for even a nanosecond. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 12:26:14 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA27817; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:20:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:20:54 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204144610.01cb5008@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 15:20:28 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3Pk-H3.0.Xo6.bGL801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52924 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "Many nonexistent objects, animals, people and phenomena are incorporated in religious art, official records, folk mythology, urban myths, the ERAB report, CIA estimates of WMD, and so on . . ." I forgot to add a key point: these objects, animals and so on are often very similar even when the originate from cultures that have probably been out of contact for ten thousand years or more, such as Aztec Indians and Australian aborigines. Mike pointed out that the flying saucer-like designs are similar in many parts of the world. So are mythical animals, drawings of animals by primitive people, and drawings made by small children everywhere. It seems likely that people naturally invent flying saucer-like designs because of some inborn quality rooted in our primate biology. I am not saying the prosaic explanation always wins, and "visit from space" hypothesis is automatically disqualified, but as long as there are alternative, plausible, prosaic explanations, this evidence cannot be considered *proof* of visits. It is suggestive, at best. Also, I wrote: "The British kept Enigma a secret for a very good reason. Their Enigma code breaking was still in operational use . . ." The important point is that this was not a scandal. It was not hidden to preserve a politician's reputation, and the secret had no commercial value. No one who knew the secret had any motivation to reveal it, except to the Soviets who paid bribes. I believe the Soviets did find out about the Enigma-cracking "bombes," but I assume they kept quiet for the same reason the British did -- so they keep reading other people's mail. In the 1950s the British were selling Enigma machines to countries like Argentina, as I recall, and the Argentines were not about to poke around trying to bribe British intelligence workers. To put it another way, yesterday I described a hypothetical secret anti-gravity machine, which I suppose thousands of people would know about by now: ". . . not one [person] has asked himself whether it would not benefit the nation more as a commercial product than as a military secret." No one would ask himself that question about the Enigma cracking "bombe." It had no value except as a military secret. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 13:59:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA27837; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 13:52:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 13:52:32 -0800 Message-ID: <40216977.4080804@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:51:51 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204144610.01cb5008@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204144610.01cb5008@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Zbt3x2.0.do6.UcM801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52925 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > To put it another way, yesterday I described a hypothetical secret > anti-gravity machine, which I suppose thousands of people would know > about by now: ". . . not one [person] has asked himself whether it > would not benefit the nation more as a commercial product than as a > military secret." No one would ask himself that question about the > Enigma cracking "bombe." It had no value except as a military secret. Here's one secret that has been kept until recently. Great story! http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/02/04/2003097438 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 14:48:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06486; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:44:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:44:26 -0800 Message-ID: <004601c3eb70$46a83880$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: The big picture Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:43:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01C3EB2D.37F589C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"bYm_w1.0.5b1.8NN801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52926 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C3EB2D.37F589C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of "anti-gravity"... Anyone pick up on "The Science Channel" last night and the series: = 'Cosmic Odyssey,' episode: '21st Century Cosmos'? It was pretty much a reiteration of the "new cosmological orthodoxy" = that seems to be emerging presently on all fronts... following such = well-publicized exposure as "Science" magazine's Top 10 breakthroughs of = the year 2003, where on the top of the chart is found... *Illuminating = the Dark Universe* . I find it absolutely amazing that all of this = shift in viewpoint has pretty much come about since 1996 and has now = nearly achieved the status of orthodoxy... but find it equally puzzling = that so few believers in "free-energy" seem to be willing to pick up on = it whole-heartedly (i.e. to embrace the implications and nuances of this = tidal shift in viewpoint at the level of the 'big picture' and transfer = that to justification for their experiments). In this new lexicon, 'dark' does not mean 'unlit' - instead it might = mean 'hidden in another dimension,' whether one wishes to call that = dimension 'reciprocal space'... '4-space' ZPE or whatever... = including... yes, the most likely candidate for anti-gravity that we = have identified so far. In effect, it is the dark-energy itself that = seems to 'push' our observable universe outward against gravity.=20 IOW, the new orthodoxy is, in effect: *anti-gravity* disguised in the = more non-committal term: 'inflation.' IOW the new cosmology is leaving = the old-physics behind... and it may not be long before the purveyors of = old-physics are forced to acknowledge the inevitable "Fall of the 2nd = Law of Thermodynamics." The 2nd Law, despite whatever whimpering = protests you may hear, has already fallen through the floor of = cosmological orthodoxy... in the big picture. Most cosmologists now agree that "Satellite and telescope data have = cemented the idea that the Universe is composed mainly of dark energy = and dark matter." In fact they say that 2/3 of the mass-energy of the = universe is so-called dark energy and that is what is pushing space out = in an inflationary manner.=20 Having said that, there are equally good reasons (based on Arp) for = stating that the Universe, in an even bigger picture (4-space + time) is = flat and that without time-averaging, the Universe only 'seems' to be = expanding now... consequently, in the even bigger picture, it should be = composed of equal parts 'dark' mass-energy and the exact same amount of = 'normal' mass-energy, the two being reciprocal. In this balanced and = timeless view there never was any appreciable amount of anti-matter = (although it can be created artificially) but instead, there is dark = matter which cannot interact on a large scale with normal matter as it = is in another spatial dimension.=20 It is the contention of a few (but a minority) that the so-called "dark = energy" and "dark matter" are nothing less than Dirac's "sea of negative = electrons," which Dirac himself called "dark energy." The corresponding = 'dark matter' would consist mainly of positronium. Dirac's sea is the critical linkage - the space-elevator, so to speak, = that ties the new-cosmology to the old-physics. And more importantly, = there is no good reason not to link this hidden feature of reality, = Dirac's sea, directly to what we have been calling ZPE or the zero point = field (the 'sea' being the superset of the ZPF). Now, there are many = skeptics of ZPE out there in the world of old-physics, and plenty of = disagreement will come from those skeptics, who naturally want to = ridicule ZPE and/or 'the aether' but know that there is no way to deny = the logic and mathematics of Dirac's observations, nor any way to = contradict much of the emerging evidence for the new cosmology and the = existence of dark energy and dark matter. They - the purveyors of = old-physics are being squeezed between the proverbial = rock-and-a-hard-place.=20 As always, it is good to remind everyone at this particular juncture = that Michelson & Morley did NOT disprove 'aether', as many Luddites like = to regurgitate, ad nauseum. They proved only that if aether exists, it = doesn't present a radiation velocity differential with respect to the = direction of motion of the bulk of matter we call Earth. And that is = exactly what one would predict based on the new cosmology, when taking = into account the implications of 4-space dimensionality.=20 If there are minor pre-existing conflicts in these definitions (or = re-definitions), I would like to reiterate a previous suggestion to = those who are interested in using the term ZPE as explicative of some = forms of attainable free-energy effects - that we make a conscious = effort to continually reinforce the notion that when we speak of ZPE, we = are talking about one of the manifestation of Dirac's "sea of negative = electrons" and that this is the very essence of dark-energy and not some = form of voo-doo pathological science. Regards, Jones Beene Talk about a win-win situation... when we succeed in capturing ZPE = free-energy, we will likely capture anti-gravity to boot! Hey, anybody = ever run a CF cell on a precision balance? BTW, Don Hotson=B9s excellent papers, originally published in Infinite = Energy: "Dirac=B9s Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy, IE #43, May/June = 2002 "Dirac=B9s Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy, IE #44, July/August = 2002 Have now been posted online with permission at: http://www.zeitlin.net/OpenSETI/Docs/HotsonPart1.pdf> http://www.zeitlin.net/OpenSETI/Docs/HotsonPart2.pdf> ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C3EB2D.37F589C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking of "anti-gravity"...
 
Anyone pick up on  "The Science Channel" last night and = the=20 series: 'Cosmic Odyssey,' episode: '21st Century Cosmos'?
 
It was pretty much a reiteration of the "new cosmological = orthodoxy" that=20 seems to be emerging presently on all fronts... following such = well-publicized=20 exposure as "Science" magazine's Top 10 breakthroughs of the year 2003, = where on=20 the top of the chart is found...  *Illuminating the Dark = Universe* .=20  I find it absolutely amazing that all of this shift in viewpoint = has=20 pretty much come about since 1996 and has now nearly achieved the status = of=20 orthodoxy... but find it equally puzzling that so few believers in = "free-energy"=20 seem to be willing to pick up on it whole-heartedly (i.e. to = embrace the=20 implications and nuances of this tidal shift in viewpoint at the level = of the=20 'big picture' and transfer that to justification for=20 their experiments).
 
In this new lexicon, 'dark' does not mean 'unlit' - instead it = might mean=20 'hidden in another dimension,' whether one wishes to call that dimension = 'reciprocal space'... '4-space' ZPE or whatever... including... yes, the = most=20 likely candidate for anti-gravity that we have identified so far. In = effect, it=20 is the dark-energy itself that seems to 'push'  our observable = universe=20 outward against gravity.
 
IOW, the new orthodoxy is, in effect: *anti-gravity* disguised = in the=20 more non-committal term: 'inflation.' IOW the new cosmology is leaving = the=20 old-physics behind... and it may not be long before the purveyors of=20 old-physics are forced to acknowledge the inevitable "Fall of the = 2nd Law=20 of Thermodynamics." The 2nd Law, despite whatever whimpering = protests you=20 may hear, has already fallen through the floor of cosmological = orthodoxy...=20 in the big picture.
 
Most cosmologists now agree that "Satellite and telescope data have = cemented the idea that the Universe is composed mainly of dark energy = and dark=20 matter."  In fact they say that 2/3 of the mass-energy of the = universe is=20 so-called dark energy and that is what is pushing space out in an=20 inflationary manner.
 
Having said that, there are equally good reasons (based on Arp) for = stating=20 that the Universe, in an even bigger picture (4-space + = time) is flat=20 and that without time-averaging, the Universe only 'seems' to be = expanding=20 now... consequently, in the even bigger picture, it should be composed = of equal=20 parts 'dark' mass-energy and the exact same amount of 'normal' = mass-energy, the=20 two being reciprocal. In this balanced and timeless view there never was = any=20 appreciable amount of anti-matter (although it can be created = artificially) but=20 instead, there is dark matter which cannot interact on a large scale = with normal=20 matter as it is in another spatial dimension.
 
It is the contention of a few (but a minority) that = the=20 so-called "dark energy" and "dark matter" are nothing less than Dirac's = "sea of=20 negative electrons," which Dirac himself called "dark energy." The=20 corresponding 'dark matter' would consist mainly = of positronium.
 
Dirac's sea is the critical linkage - the space-elevator, so = to speak,=20  that ties the new-cosmology to the old-physics. And more = importantly,=20 there is no good reason not to link this hidden feature of reality, = Dirac's=20 sea, directly to what we have been calling ZPE or the zero point = field (the=20 'sea' being the superset of the ZPF). Now, there are many skeptics = of ZPE=20 out there in the world of old-physics, and plenty of = disagreement will come=20 from those skeptics, who naturally want to ridicule ZPE and/or = 'the=20 aether' but know that there is no way to deny the logic and mathematics = of=20 Dirac's observations, nor any way to contradict much of the emerging = evidence=20 for the new cosmology and the existence of dark energy and dark matter. = They -=20 the purveyors of old-physics are being squeezed between the proverbial=20 rock-and-a-hard-place.
 
As always, it is good to remind everyone at this particular=20 juncture that Michelson & Morley = did NOT disprove=20 'aether', as many Luddites like to regurgitate, ad nauseum.  They = proved=20 only that if aether exists, it doesn't present a radiation velocity = differential with respect to the direction of motion of the bulk of = matter we=20 call Earth. And that is exactly what one would predict based on the new=20 cosmology, when taking into account the implications of 4-space = dimensionality.=20
 
If there are minor pre-existing conflicts in these definitions (or=20 re-definitions), I would like to reiterate a previous suggestion to = those who=20 are interested in using the term ZPE as explicative of some forms of = attainable=20 free-energy effects - that we make a conscious effort to continually = reinforce=20 the notion that when we speak of ZPE, we are talking about one of = the=20 manifestation of Dirac's "sea of negative electrons" and that this is = the very=20 essence of dark-energy and not some form of voo-doo pathological = science.
 
Regards,
 
Jones Beene
 
Talk about a win-win situation... when we succeed in capturing = ZPE=20 free-energy, we will likely capture anti-gravity to boot! Hey, = anybody ever=20 run a CF cell on a precision balance?
 
BTW, Don Hotson=B9s excellent papers, originally published in = Infinite=20 Energy:
"Dirac=B9s Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy, IE #43, = May/June=20 2002
"Dirac=B9s Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy,  IE = #44,=20 July/August 2002

Have now been posted online with permission = at:
http://www.= zeitlin.net/OpenSETI/Docs/HotsonPart1.pdf>
http://www.= zeitlin.net/OpenSETI/Docs/HotsonPart2.pdf>
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C3EB2D.37F589C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 16:24:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA22878; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:21:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:21:52 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204190552.01cb3ac0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:21:44 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Improbable story of Russian explosion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Now2L3.0.Qb5.VoO801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52927 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: > Here's one secret that has been kept until recently. Great story! > > http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/02/04/2003097438 > I read this elsewhere . . . the N. Y. Times I think. It sounds highly unlikely to me for several reasons. First a quote, for those who have not read it: "The pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines and valves was programmed to go haywire," writes Reed, "to reset pump speeds and valve settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to the pipeline joints and welds. The result was the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space." Problems: 1. With a software purchase on this scale, back in the 1970s, they gave you source code. No one can hide this kind of thing in source code. 2. Software packages and RAM were small back then, and it was easy to spot add-on stuff that wasn't supposed to be there. 3. With any project of this scale, you start with a pilot project and work up. The failure would have occurred in the pilot project. 4. Russians are not idiots, and they were -- and still are -- highly suspicious and prone to check for sabotage. It would not have been difficult to detect hidden subroutines and whatnot back then. (I did it myself, with minicomputers.) 5. In places the article mixes up hardware and software, or possibly firmware. Anyway, hardware cannot be programmed to do this. Maybe it can now that our voting machines are programmed with Windows (!?$#@), but it couldn't back then. 6. This author, Safire, is not qualified to talk about science and technology, in my opinion. I have spotted some real howlers in his articles before. I admit, the Soviets did some very stupid things. During WWII, U.S. lend-lease equipment was sometimes installed quickly, without proper controls, by people who could not read the English instructions. My dad, who was in Russia overseeing agriculture lend-lease, remembered a plant that was destroyed because they tried to run it manually it before the control electronics arrived from the States. The plant literally melted down. This was done on orders from Moscow, but naturally they blamed the local managers, who were hauled in front a firing squad and summarily shot. Then they couldn't find anyone else to run the plant, surprise, surprise. There was no incentive, as my dad said. Things like this did happen -- especially in the heat of WWII. But I really doubt this scenario happened in the 1970s, or if it did, I doubt our spooks could take credit. I await confirmation from more reliable sources. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 18:11:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA08665; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:09:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:09:16 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Improbable story of Russian explosion Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:07:34 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204190552.01cb3ac0@pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ZmYAr1.0.672.BNQ801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52928 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This allegedly being about petroleum industry technology, I can tell you this story is one of those complete crocks cooked up to help the disinformation war emanating from the political camps now arming for battle. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, 2004 February 05 07:22 > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: Improbable story of Russian explosion > > > Terry Blanton writes: > > > Here's one secret that has been kept until recently. Great story! > > > > http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/02/04/2003097438 > > > > I read this elsewhere . . . the N. Y. Times I think. It sounds highly > unlikely to me for several reasons. First a quote, for those who have not > read it: > > "The pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines and valves was > programmed to go haywire," writes Reed, "to reset pump speeds and valve > settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to the pipeline > joints and welds. The result was the most monumental non-nuclear > explosion > and fire ever seen from space." > > Problems: > > 1. With a software purchase on this scale, back in the 1970s, > they gave you > source code. No one can hide this kind of thing in source code. > > 2. Software packages and RAM were small back then, and it was > easy to spot > add-on stuff that wasn't supposed to be there. > > 3. With any project of this scale, you start with a pilot project > and work > up. The failure would have occurred in the pilot project. > > 4. Russians are not idiots, and they were -- and still are -- highly > suspicious and prone to check for sabotage. It would not have been > difficult to detect hidden subroutines and whatnot back then. (I did it > myself, with minicomputers.) > > 5. In places the article mixes up hardware and software, or possibly > firmware. Anyway, hardware cannot be programmed to do this. Maybe it can > now that our voting machines are programmed with Windows (!?$#@), but it > couldn't back then. > > 6. This author, Safire, is not qualified to talk about science and > technology, in my opinion. I have spotted some real howlers in > his articles > before. > > I admit, the Soviets did some very stupid things. During WWII, U.S. > lend-lease equipment was sometimes installed quickly, without proper > controls, by people who could not read the English instructions. My dad, > who was in Russia overseeing agriculture lend-lease, remembered a plant > that was destroyed because they tried to run it manually it before the > control electronics arrived from the States. The plant literally melted > down. This was done on orders from Moscow, but naturally they blamed the > local managers, who were hauled in front a firing squad and > summarily shot. > Then they couldn't find anyone else to run the plant, surprise, surprise. > There was no incentive, as my dad said. Things like this did happen -- > especially in the heat of WWII. But I really doubt this scenario happened > in the 1970s, or if it did, I doubt our spooks could take credit. > > I await confirmation from more reliable sources. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 18:27:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA18685; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:24:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:24:56 -0800 Message-ID: <005201c3eb8f$3b93d2a0$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> From: "rebrady" To: References: <004601c3eb70$46a83880$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: The big picture Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:23:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004F_01C3EB4C.0E4E4C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"x992M3.0.vZ4.ubQ801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52929 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C3EB4C.0E4E4C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of "anti-gravity". . . Space is occupied by dark energy. If we assume that the dark energy = asserts pressure on all the mass it encounters, we have the = gravitational effect we may be calling gravity. We would also expect = that the universe's horizon would be expanding at an expanding rate, = which it is. We do not need to dream up anti-gravity to make this all = work as a single phenomenon of positive forces. In my mind, our challenge is to understand how this dark energy effects = earth -- not some distance thing. I believe it manifests as gravity, = but I would love to hear other ideas. I would assume that earth was = generally being bombarded on all sides by these unseen forces that = occupy so much of space. =20 Bob Brady ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C3EB4C.0E4E4C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking of "anti-gravity". . .
 
Space is occupied by dark energy.  If we assume = that the=20 dark energy asserts pressure on all the mass it encounters, we have the=20 gravitational effect we may be calling gravity.  We would also = expect that=20 the universe's horizon would be expanding at an expanding rate, which it = is.  We do not need to dream up anti-gravity to make this all = work as=20 a single phenomenon of positive forces.
 
In my mind, our challenge is to understand how this = dark=20 energy effects earth -- not some distance thing.  I believe it = manifests as=20 gravity, but I would love to hear other ideas.  I would assume that = earth=20 was generally being bombarded on all sides by these unseen forces = that=20 occupy so much of space. 
 
Bob Brady
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C3EB4C.0E4E4C00-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 19:43:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA15393; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:42:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:42:09 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Improbable story of Russian explosion Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:06:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"46mxF.0.Km3.GkR801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52930 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yeah, in fact there was a whole Third World War we weren't told about....back in June of '82 when the "gas pipeline" exploded. Here's the _real_ story. http://www.ahtg.net/TpA/ww3.html Yikes! I wuz had! K. -----Original Message----- From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 9:08 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Improbable story of Russian explosion This allegedly being about petroleum industry technology, I can tell you this story is one of those complete crocks cooked up to help the disinformation war emanating from the political camps now arming for battle. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, 2004 February 05 07:22 > To: vortex-L@eskimo.com > Subject: Improbable story of Russian explosion > > > Terry Blanton writes: > > > Here's one secret that has been kept until recently. Great story! > > > > http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/02/04/2003097438 > > > > I read this elsewhere . . . the N. Y. Times I think. It sounds highly > unlikely to me for several reasons. First a quote, for those who have not > read it: > > "The pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines and valves was > programmed to go haywire," writes Reed, "to reset pump speeds and valve > settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to the pipeline > joints and welds. The result was the most monumental non-nuclear > explosion > and fire ever seen from space." > > Problems: > > 1. With a software purchase on this scale, back in the 1970s, > they gave you > source code. No one can hide this kind of thing in source code. > > 2. Software packages and RAM were small back then, and it was > easy to spot > add-on stuff that wasn't supposed to be there. > > 3. With any project of this scale, you start with a pilot project > and work > up. The failure would have occurred in the pilot project. > > 4. Russians are not idiots, and they were -- and still are -- highly > suspicious and prone to check for sabotage. It would not have been > difficult to detect hidden subroutines and whatnot back then. (I did it > myself, with minicomputers.) > > 5. In places the article mixes up hardware and software, or possibly > firmware. Anyway, hardware cannot be programmed to do this. Maybe it can > now that our voting machines are programmed with Windows (!?$#@), but it > couldn't back then. > > 6. This author, Safire, is not qualified to talk about science and > technology, in my opinion. I have spotted some real howlers in > his articles > before. > > I admit, the Soviets did some very stupid things. During WWII, U.S. > lend-lease equipment was sometimes installed quickly, without proper > controls, by people who could not read the English instructions. My dad, > who was in Russia overseeing agriculture lend-lease, remembered a plant > that was destroyed because they tried to run it manually it before the > control electronics arrived from the States. The plant literally melted > down. This was done on orders from Moscow, but naturally they blamed the > local managers, who were hauled in front a firing squad and > summarily shot. > Then they couldn't find anyone else to run the plant, surprise, surprise. > There was no incentive, as my dad said. Things like this did happen -- > especially in the heat of WWII. But I really doubt this scenario happened > in the 1970s, or if it did, I doubt our spooks could take credit. > > I await confirmation from more reliable sources. > > - Jed > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 09:25:35 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA22254; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:21:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:21:22 -0800 From: Baronvolsung@aol.com Message-ID: <29.507465ee.2d53d4f1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:18:41 EST Subject: Fwd: Nutrion Power Deutchland by Johan Buttlar and Konstantine Meyl To: Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_29.507465ee.2d53d4f1_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5007 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jj7FE.0.bR5.Gkd801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52931 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_29.507465ee.2d53d4f1_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1076001521" -------------------------------1076001521 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/2004 10:55:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, Baronvolsung writes: The book Neutrino Power by Johannes of Buttlar & Konstantin Meyl, ISBN 3980658481, is available at the german amazon.com website at www.amazon.de or at the link below in English translation: http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASI N/3980658481/qid%253D1065957300/028-8633624-4454962&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkonstan tin%2Bmeyl%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com -------------------------------1076001521 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 2/5/2004 10:55:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, Baronvol= sung writes:
 
The book Neutrino Power by Johannes of Buttlar & Konstantin Meyl, I= SBN 3980658481, is available at the german amazon.com website at www.amazon.de or at the link below in English tran= slation:
http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl=3Den&u=3Dhttp://www.amazon.de/= exec/obidos/ASIN/3980658481/qid%253D1065957300/028-8633624-4454962&prev= =3D/search%3Fq%3Dkonstantin%2Bmeyl%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF= -8%26sa%3DG
 

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: w= ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: = www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\n= ewage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation=20= Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com
-------------------------------1076001521-- --part1_29.507465ee.2d53d4f1_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: Baronvolsung@aol.com Full-name: Baronvolsung Message-ID: <29.5073bac4.2d53c175@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:55:33 EST Subject: Nutrion Power Deutchland To: Baronvolsung@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1075996533" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5007 -------------------------------1075996533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASI N/3980658481/qid%253D1065957300/028-8633624-4454962&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkonstan tin%2Bmeyl%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com -------------------------------1075996533 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: w= ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: = www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\n= ewage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation=20= Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com
-------------------------------1075996533-- --part1_29.507465ee.2d53d4f1_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 11:25:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA03675; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:22:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:22:43 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205124025.01cb4d60@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 12:49:07 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Big response to Mallove broadcast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"XpYZt3.0.Cv.1Wf801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52932 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Congratulations Gene! The radio broadcast triggered a large number of visitors to LENR-CANR.org. I hope that a similar number looked at www.infinite-energy.com. The broadcast is archived here: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2004/02/03.html LENR-CANR stats Total visits through midday today: 2,583 Bytes downloaded: 1.72 GB. This might be a problem, actually. Our monthly quota is 20 GB. Acrobat papers downloaded: 5,602. A new record daily total. I was particularly pleased to see visitors from 74 different .edu accounts. These are universities, colleges and high schools. I cannot tell which ones are visiting, but I am pleased to see them. By the way, I forgot to mention that last Saturday LENR-CANR grand total downloads exceeded 400,000. The grand total is now 410,505. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 12:05:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27290; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:02:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:02:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205142421.01cb4e08@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:37:16 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Improbable story of Russian explosion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xXnBD2.0.Jg6.x4g801"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52933 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: explorecraft wrote: > And I could go on, but I won't > - the article is blatantly fraudulent> And not only that, it ran in the "newspaper of record," the great Gray Lady herself, the New York Times. So much for establishment credibility. A couple of weeks ago the N.Y.T. published another preposterous article about sex slavery in the US. See: http://slate.msn.com/id/2094414 Actually, I do not know enough about petroleum engineering to state categorically this is "blatant fraud" but it sure sounds fishy to me. I doubt that Mr. Safire realizes how fishy it is, and I do not think he is committing fraud. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 12:59:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA24451; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:56:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:56:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205124025.01cb4d60@pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205124025.01cb4d60@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:55:56 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mars Coral Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA24319 Resent-Message-ID: <"3ePsr.0.wz5.ntg801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52934 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Non-organic alternative to "mars coral" for all those little Mento candy pieces all over the Opportunity landing site: Meteor impacts hit the light colored bedrock, liquifying some of it and hurling it high in the air. Droplets solidify as they fall, and the striations might be formed on the windward surface. The molten blobs stabilize into little aerodynamic discs like some hailstones do, catching dust or airstreams that cut shallow grooves in a radial pattern on the still-soft material. But wouldn't that scenario yield a distribution of blob sizes larger than the ones seen in the sand? There are some smallish ones, but a majority are about the same size - seems to suggest an organic origin. Musing out loud... hope that rover scurries over to the outcrop so I can stop wondering. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 13:08:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA30948; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:02:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:02:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205142421.01cb4e08@pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205142421.01cb4e08@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:02:04 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Improbable story of Russian explosion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"GtwJj.0.WZ7.Vzg801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52935 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: C'mon, join the fun. The site is run by the Interdimensional Transit Authority. The reports are from just *one* of n Earths. They catalogue 'em, issue travel advisories on Earths where things are lots worse than here, etc. Keep Slidin' ... - Rick >explorecraft wrote: > >> And I could go on, but I won't >> - the article is blatantly fraudulent> > >And not only that, it ran in the "newspaper of record," the great Gray Lady herself, the New York Times. So much for establishment credibility. A couple of weeks ago the N.Y.T. published another preposterous article about sex slavery in the US. See: > >http://slate.msn.com/id/2094414 > >Actually, I do not know enough about petroleum engineering to state categorically this is "blatant fraud" but it sure sounds fishy to me. I doubt that Mr. Safire realizes how fishy it is, and I do not think he is committing fraud. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 13:13:35 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA31957; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:03:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:03:26 -0800 Message-ID: <4022AF76.6040002@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 16:02:46 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars Coral References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040205124025.01cb4d60@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Xwk2-.0.Bp7.T-g801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52936 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Non-organic alternative to "mars coral" for all those little Mento candy pieces all over the Opportunity landing site: > >Meteor impacts hit the light colored bedrock, > Or volcanic activity. Here's the press release on Marvin's Balls (not to be confused with Janet's . . .): http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2004/51.cfm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 15:09:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA29195; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:06:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:06:36 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Improbable story of Russian explosion Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:31:12 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"oOEee2.0.187.xni801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52937 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unfortunately, William Safire's earth is one we've been increasingly drawn into. It's not a very happy or pleasant earth, I can tell you. Perhaps a month ago, I saw him on one of the sunday morning talk shows. He seemed obsessed with the theory that Clarks campaign was some sort of huge subterfuge designed to thrust Hillary Clinton into the running for the next election. The other pundits just scratched their heads, "What the hell's this guy talking about???". Needless to say, Bill seemed a bit credulous. By the way, something truly remarkable is scheduled to happen this sunday. Apparently, Team Bush is feeling sufficiently threatened to send W. himself into the lions den, AKA Tim Russerts "Meet the Press". A potentially unscripted W., mano-a-mano with Mr. "Here's footage of you saying some asinine thing last year that was wrong when you said it and even more wrong now, how do you respond". Usually they send Rumsfeld, who's generally clever enough to at least dodge the bullets. I suspect we'll see some real fireworks now, given that this is the first actual serious unscripted interview of the man in his entire term of office (sorry, but Barbara Walters does not constitute a newsworthy interview ). It'll be, uhmmmm, nucular! K. PS: I tried to find some information on pipeline explosions in Russia during that time period ( how I can across that crazy site ). If it was the largest non-nuclear explosion to date ( as claimed ) I'd expect other reports about it. I found plenty of other accident reports but no explosion on the date given. Anyone else have any luck confirming some of the elements of the story? I hate to say this Terry, but it really does look like pure spin. Reading it reminded me of some of the crazy stories that floated around during the cold war, like reading old Tom Bearden material of that time. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Improbable story of Russian explosion C'mon, join the fun. The site is run by the Interdimensional Transit Authority. The reports are from just *one* of n Earths. They catalogue 'em, issue travel advisories on Earths where things are lots worse than here, etc. Keep Slidin' ... - Rick >explorecraft wrote: > >> And I could go on, but I won't >> - the article is blatantly fraudulent> > >And not only that, it ran in the "newspaper of record," the great Gray Lady herself, the New York Times. So much for establishment credibility. A couple of weeks ago the N.Y.T. published another preposterous article about sex slavery in the US. See: > >http://slate.msn.com/id/2094414 > >Actually, I do not know enough about petroleum engineering to state categorically this is "blatant fraud" but it sure sounds fishy to me. I doubt that Mr. Safire realizes how fishy it is, and I do not think he is committing fraud. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 18:23:15 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA29616; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:19:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:19:29 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:23:38 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"BXU-l1.0.bE7.mcl801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52938 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: The Opportunity Sol 12 microscopic images appears to show the same area that the "coral" was first noticed on previous sols, but it appears the area has been disrupted by the x-ray spectrometer being pushed into the soil. Some of the pieces can now be seen to have much more structure than before. It is very difficult indeed to believe these rocks formed without life present. There are a couple new panoramic photos too - very strange indeed! I wonder what they represent? An error of some kind? A sky picture? So grainy. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 18:41:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07725; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:31:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:31:17 -0800 (PST) From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:30:15 EST Subject: Re: Improbable story of Russian explosion To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ce.45285299.2d545637_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"Widb92.0.fu1.onl801"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52939 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_ce.45285299.2d545637_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/4/04 7:24:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, JedRothwell@mindspring.com writes: > 6. This author, Safire, is not qualified to talk about science and > technology, in my opinion. I have spotted some real howlers in his articles > before. > > Yes, just recently he wrote a glowing item about space exploration and misunderstood "Sleepy Hollow" as a crater the size of Connecticut. It's a tiny part of Guzev Crater, which is about that size. I also recall he referred to Stardust as having "scooped up" material from the core of a comet, rather than caught dust behind it in flypaper fashion. I think that after a point, people are too intimidated to fact check notable writers. It's a perverse inverse relationship -- the more your opinions are deemed to matter, the less soundly they'll be grounded in facts. Erik Baard www.baard.com --part1_ce.45285299.2d545637_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/4/04 7:24:41 P= M Eastern Standard Time, JedRothwell@mindspring.com writes:

6. This author, Safire, is not=20= qualified to talk about science and
technology, in my opinion. I have spotted some real howlers in his articles=20=
before.



Yes, just recently he wrote a glowing item about space exploration and misun= derstood "Sleepy Hollow" as a crater the size of Connecticut.  It's a t= iny part of Guzev Crater, which is about that size.  I also recall he r= eferred to Stardust as having "scooped up" material from the core of a comet= , rather than caught dust behind it in flypaper fashion.

I think that after a point, people are too intimidated to fact check notable= writers.  It's a perverse inverse relationship -- the more your opinio= ns are deemed to matter, the less soundly they'll be grounded in facts.

Erik Baard
www.baard.com --part1_ce.45285299.2d545637_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 19:06:35 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA11825; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:03:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:03:48 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 14:03:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3306205hf4r6n0j4culkqdjq6h4bptn1fg@4ax.com> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040202143545.01cb3dc0@pop.mindspring.com> <200402032329.27050.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200402032329.27050.rockcast@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA11753 Resent-Message-ID: <"Giqp-1.0.gu2.IGm801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52940 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:29:27 -0500: Hi, [snip] >regarding electric cables in the guideway or thereabouts, any cable 6 x 10^5 >miles long will have a terrific heating and voltage drop problem at even >half that distance. Actually, it only needs to be a 20 th of that distance. The distance you quote above is more than twice the distance to the moon. Since we are talking about non-exitant cable materials anyway, we might as well add a room temperature superconductor. I seem to remember reading that there is already some evidence that nanotubes with a metallic core may be high temp superconductors. This would fit in nicely with the cable itself being made of nanotubes. There is also the possibility that the cable might lend itself to single wire power transmission with resonant transmitter and receiver, which appears to be more efficient than normal two wire transmission. >The laser looks more efficient a power transmission >medium for those distances. Most laser drive ideas seem to revolve about >ground based lasers and a sea based cable. This seems a failure mechanism >as the sea has waves however small. This can produce aiming problems that >must be compensated for continually. Why not use space based laser power >with the driving power coming from solar panels in space. In space there >never is wind or waves to create problems, and comounting the laser in space >with the cable would make a better arrangement. Would really ruin your day >if as a passenger you witnessed a ground based laser lose its aim and cut >the cable upon which you were riding......... > >Standing Bear Actually providing power from space isn't such a bad idea. Since one needs a large mass at the top end anyway, it might as well at least partly consist of a solar panel farm. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 19:38:12 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA12769; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:34:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:34:32 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 14:33:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <811620pua4h96vfe01plb43ivlpi31rfv2@4ax.com> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203163327.01cb3be8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203163327.01cb3be8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA12591 Resent-Message-ID: <"szXnz1.0.R73.8jm801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52941 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:54:27 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk writes: > > > >That would be the most expensive, dangerous and wasteful window >dressing in > > >history. > > > > Indeed. And political suicide if it ever got out. > >Indeed. And that is why we can be absolutely, positively certain it would >get out. No secret of this magnitude could be kept in Washington DC for >more than five minutes. Then the national secrets act must be pointless. [snip] >Let us be realistic about this. Antigravity would be as valuable to society >as cold fusion. Correct. >It would be worth trillions to the US economy. Overseas >sales of the technology would wipe out our trade deficit, and increased >income would cancel much of the national debt as well. It would >revolutionize every industry on earth. Correct. >It would be welcomed by most >industries; there is no DoE antigravity research program like hot fusion >that would oppose this particular innovation. Especially as they are probably involved in it. ;) >I could believe that >antigravity is being suppressed for some unknown reason in the experiments >performed on a small scale by a handful of mavericks outside the >establishment. This is what is happening to CF, after all, although the >controversy is no secret, and anyone can learn as much as he wants about CF >research. But I cannot believe that antigravity has actually been developed >into a practical device, capable of carrying people. Not surprising that you can't believe it. There has been an ongoing disinformation program going on for decades, the main drift of which is that anyone who believes in flying saucers isn't playing with a full deck. I wasn't sure myself, till I saw it with my own eyes. >A breakthrough on this >scale would require the cooperation of thousands -- perhaps hundreds of >thousands -- of top experts in many fields, especially aviation. It would ... or the cooperation of aliens who already have the technology. >take years to develop. If word leaked, reporters would consider this to be >one of the greatest scoops in the history of journalism. Even so, word has been leaking for years. That's part of the reason for the disinformation campaign. >Yet not one word >of it has leaked, Wrong. Lots of words have leaked, but the leaker is denigrated and made to look foolish so that no one will believe them. [snip] >I think people are a lot smarter than you think. They seldom exercise their >intelligence because there seldom any need for them to do so. That may amount to the same thing. [snip] >No democracy can sustain an offensive policy for long. The voters will not >stand for it. We will see this year won't we? >If the U.S. fights another "war of choice" before the >election, there will not be another Republican president or Congress for a >generation. The "neo-cons" who think the U.S. can act like an old-fashioned >Empire have lost their minds. One "war of choice" should have been enough, not to mention the patriot act. >You miss the point. The ship did not participate. It was hundreds of miles >away, lurking the background. This was partly because Adm. Yamamoto wanted >to keep it secret until last moment. It had no effect on Midway or any >other. By the time the Japanese decided to fully unveil this secret weapon, >the U.S. was ready to sink it with the loss of 5 or 6 airplanes, as I recall. I stand corrected. > > The value of secrecy lies in surprise. > >This doctrine has seldom actually worked in war, Somehow I doubt that convinces anyone not to try keeping secrets. [snip] > > If your enemy doesn't know what you've got, then they can't prepare for it. > >It is impossible to keep an enemy from knowing what you have. It was >extremely difficult in the past, and with today's world-wide media, open >societies, and reconnaissance, it is impossible. At most, you can fool >people into thinking you have things you do not really have, such as >thousands of tons of WMD. You cannot hide actual weapons as big as aircraft >or ships. Sure you can. You just put them underground, or under water. Of course they do tend to be seen when flying around, but that fits in nicely with what we call UFOs. And it's obvious that despite hundreds of sightings by thousands of people all over the world, you still don't believe in them. What have they got to worry about? :) [snip] >I agree, it could be as obvious as an atomic bomb. For example, suppose a >vehicle as large as an automobile hovers for several minutes in the air >within a few meters away from you, or just over your head, yet you feel no >wind and you were not killed by a giant flux of high-energy particles. That >would definitely prove there is no propellant (no action-reaction holding >the machine up). Anything short of that, such as seeing a vehicle in the >distance, proves nothing. Such evidence may be suggestive, but it proves >nothing. Here at the PDK airport I can stand 30 meters behind a large >executive jet while it revvs up both engines, blowing great clouds of >leaves into the air (as one is doing just now outside my window). Yet I >feel nothing. No wind at all. And the engines are remarkably quiet. The >U.S. has helicopters that can hover 100 meters over your head so quietly >you can barely hear them. There were no rotor blades. There were no air intakes (or holes of any sort for that matter). The hull was apparently of one piece with a metallic lustre that basically precludes ion propulsion (JLN), as the metal in the hull would short out the high voltage. There was no heat shimmer below the craft. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 21:32:40 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA00845; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:30:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:30:57 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:30:13 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id VAA00739 Resent-Message-ID: <"G8e071.0.7D.8Qo801"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52942 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Some of the pieces can now be seen to have much more structure than >before. It is very difficult indeed to believe these rocks formed without >life present. I agree. The volcanic hail idea faded a bit after taking a look at the sol 12 micros. That little limpet-shell looking thing with the dark center, striations and concentric rings like growth rings is very interesting (missed the detail in the previous images), and the light colored catcher's mit shaped piece near it has small opposing pairs of protrusions from its larger ridges, and some of the ridges appear curled over, if that's not just a trick on the eye. Looks like the business end of a crinoid from a piece Fort Worth cretaceous limestone. I'm not completely sure if all this means these are/aren't fossils or just some sort of tricky inorganic mineral formations, but one thing seems sure at this point: the structure we see, up to a certain point at least, really is there. They aren't Hoagland's fortresses or railroad tracks this time. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 22:02:00 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA15854; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:59:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:59:15 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Coral on Mars? Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:57:30 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"JLYOc1.0.gt3.oqo801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52943 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looks like a field of 3mm "volcanic glass beads" laying near the rover, towards the outcrop maybe? Who wants to do the math on why the beads are primarily the same size? Also, I notice they appear very 'polished' in using simple photo editor, magnifying by mere 10% and then using smallest sharpening setting, the reflection of what I take to be spectrometer head is faintly visible on the 3 mm bead. > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Friday, 2004 February 06 09:24 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? > > > The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: > > > > > The Opportunity Sol 12 microscopic images appears to show the same area > that the "coral" was first noticed on previous sols, but it appears the > area has been disrupted by the x-ray spectrometer being pushed into the > soil. Some of the pieces can now be seen to have much more structure than > before. It is very difficult indeed to believe these rocks formed without > life present. > > There are a couple new panoramic photos too - very strange indeed! I > wonder what they represent? An error of some kind? A sky picture? So > grainy. > > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 08:12:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA32367; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:07:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:07:53 -0800 From: Jim Thumber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:08:59 -0500 Message-ID: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203163327.01cb3be8@pop.mindspring.com> <811620pua4h96vfe01plb43ivlpi31rfv2@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <811620pua4h96vfe01plb43ivlpi31rfv2@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fIxIk.0.Wv7.Plx801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52944 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 14:33:52 +1100, you wrote: > >Not surprising that you can't believe it. There has been an ongoing disinformation program going on for decades, the main drift of which is that anyone who believes in flying saucers isn't playing with a full deck. >I wasn't sure myself, till I saw it with my own eyes. > Would you tell us what you saw. The more details, the better. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 09:40:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA00919; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:37:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:37:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040206111517.01cb3848@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 12:14:41 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"n2Hjp1.0.IE.63z801"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52945 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk writes: > Actually, it only needs to be a 20 th of that distance. The distance you quote above is more than twice the distance to the moon. > Since we are talking about non-exitant cable materials anyway, we might as well add a room temperature superconductor. That is a little unfair. The people trying to develop this sincerely think they will have viable cable material within a few years. They do not claim they will have room temperature superconductors. Of course if they are wrong and they cannot develop the cable material, all bets are off. Similarly, if Ed Storms is right and they are wrong, and electric charge turns out to be a real problem, all bets are off again. People working on speculative projects sometimes leave large chunks of the blueprints blank, hoping a breakthrough will come along to solve critical problems. The hot fusion program and Star Wars are famous for doing this. The International Space Station was initially envisioned as a launch platform for deep space rockets, a role it would be totally unfit for. However, as far as I can see, the people trying to build a space elevator have made an honest attempt to address all technical issues and fill in the blanks. Elsewhere, Robin wrote: > >get out. No secret of this magnitude could be kept in Washington DC for > >more than five minutes. > > Then the national secrets act must be pointless. Yes, it is. It has never worked in any country, except during major wars, and for narrow discoveries that have no civilian application, such as the "bombes" that broke the Enigma code. To take a concrete example, the "Colossus" electronic vacuum tube version of the "bombe" was developed in the U.K. in the last phase of the war. The details of this machines was kept secret until recently. The Colossus had some advanced features that were not incorporated into computers until years later. However, all of these features were eventually rediscovered and made public. None of them would have surprised a computer designer in 1955. Even in the dire emergency of the war -- the worst emergency in history -- the British government had no magic ability to invent things more than five or 10 years ahead of the curve. > >research. But I cannot believe that antigravity has actually been developed > >into a practical device, capable of carrying people. > > Not surprising that you can't believe it. There has been an ongoing > disinformation program going on for decades, the main drift of which > is that anyone who believes in flying saucers isn't playing with a full deck. Millions of people in the US firmly believe that flying saucers are real. Claims that they are real are often featured in serious television documentaries. This must be the most inept disinformation program on record. How is it that the government can convince most people that Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden were allied, but it cannot convince people that UFOs do not exist? My hypothesis is that that the government does not care what people think about UFOs. There are some subjects the scientific establishment does not want the pubic to hear about, such as Creationism, CF, and the hypothesis that AIDS is not caused by the AIDS virus. The scientific establishment has successful marginalized these subjects, even though President Bush and the governor of the State of Georgia have voiced support for creationism, and some polls show that more members of the public believe in creationism than evolution. You do not see serious television documentaries on mainstream channels asserting the Creationist point of view. (Some cable TV religious channels do broadcast it.) Why is there no pressure to ban programs about UFOlogy? I expect most scientists think UFOs are silly, and a waste of time, but harmless. Many others probably agree with me that we do not have enough information to draw firm conclusions about UFOs, which is why they are -- and should be -- called "unidentified." > There were no rotor blades. There were no air intakes (or holes of any sort for that matter). You said you saw the vehicle flying through the air, from below. You did not see it from all sides. Ground support military aircraft with no air intakes visible from the ground were first built in 1918. They are quieter, and somewhat harder to damage from the ground with small arms. The Japanese nicknamed them "whispering death" during WWII. The B-2 bomber is a modern example. > The hull was apparently of one piece with a metallic lustre > that basically precludes ion propulsion (JLN), as the metal in the hull would short out the high voltage. There was no heat shimmer below the craft. You have to be very close to see a heat shimmer! I see airplanes take off and land all day, and I seldom see that. One more obvious question: if so much effort is being made to keep this aircraft a secret, why did they fly it where you could see it? Where were you, anyway? In the middle of White Sands Test Facility? - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 09:51:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA12040; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:49:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:49:03 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:30:43 EST Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"FBXJq3.0.4y2.FEz801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52946 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All - If coral isn't tasty enough, try a crab claw!&nbsp; : ) Photo and article link here: www.baard.com Okay, I'm a vegetarian, but I couldn't resist. Best regards, Erik --part1_1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All -

If coral isn't tasty enough, try a crab claw!&nbsp; : )

Photo and article link here:

www.baard.com

Okay, I'm a vegetarian, but I couldn't resist.

Best regards,

Erik --part1_1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 11:32:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04378; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:27:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:27:21 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943@aol.com> References: <1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:23:51 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1136030636==_ma============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"zQqMx3.0.L41.Jg-801"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52947 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1136030636==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Erik - I can't find that section of the larger image. Could you indicate where on the panorama that feature is located? Thanks, - Rick >Hi All - > >If coral isn't tasty enough, try a crab claw!  : ) > >Photo and article link here: > >w>w.baard.com > >Okay, I'm a vegetarian, but I couldn't resist. > >Best regards, > >Erik --============_-1136030636==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Coral on Mars?
Erik -

I can't find that section of the larger image. Could you indicate where on the panorama that feature is located?

Thanks,

- Rick


Hi All -

If coral isn't tasty enough, try a crab claw!&nbsp; : )

Photo and article link here:

w.baard.com

Okay, I'm a vegetarian, but I couldn't resist.

Best regards,

Erik

--============_-1136030636==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 11:40:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA10553; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:37:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:37:04 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <25.43dfb7fe.2d5546b7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:36:23 EST Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_25.43dfb7fe.2d5546b7_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"P_bEc2.0.ga2.Vp-801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52948 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_25.43dfb7fe.2d5546b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scroll a little under 2/3 across and then about halfway on the vertical. And there's the crab. --part1_25.43dfb7fe.2d5546b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scroll a little under 2/3 across an= d then about halfway on the vertical.

And there's the crab. --part1_25.43dfb7fe.2d5546b7_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 12:19:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA20201; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:15:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:15:59 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20040206114645.0154caf8@popmail.esa.lanl.gov> X-Sender: claytor@popmail.esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:47:20 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: check out the CIA's nefarious technology In-Reply-To: <40216977.4080804@rtpatlanta.com> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040204144610.01cb5008@pop.mindspring.com> <6.0.1.1.2.20040204144610.01cb5008@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_38178187==_.ALT" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Resent-Message-ID: <"ydwX62.0.Ix4.-N_801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52949 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_38178187==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/02/04/2003097438 > http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Ph. D. Claytor@lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-AET, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax Shipping Address: Thomas N. Claytor Los Alamos National Lab Receiving/SM 30 Bikini Atoll Rd Los Alamos NM 87545 Attention: Drop Point 01S --=====================_38178187==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/02/04/2003097438


Thomas N. Claytor  Ph. D. Claytor@lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-AET, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

Shipping Address:

Thomas N. Claytor
Los Alamos National Lab
Receiving/SM 30
Bikini Atoll Rd
Los Alamos NM 87545
Attention: Drop Point 01S


--=====================_38178187==_.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 12:34:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA05243; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:31:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:31:15 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040206152355.01cb4db0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:31:09 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: check out the CIA's nefarious technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"kB_f92.0.tH1.Ic_801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52950 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Tom. We have been discussing this here for a couple of days. I think the consensus is we don't believe it. See messages under: "Improbable story of Russian explosion" in the archive: http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ (Select: "Switch to Thread Index") I was thinking yesterday that since Mr. Explorecraft seems to know about petroleum technology circa 1970, perhaps he should draft a letter to Mr. Safire, who can be reached via the New York Times. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 12:35:18 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA06748; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:32:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:32:46 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040206153122.01cd45e0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:32:45 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: LENR-CANR back to normal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ynGrC3.0.Mf1.jd_801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52951 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: LENR-CANR.org is pretty much back to normal after yesterday's burst of activity. Visitors are higher than normal, but the downloads are at 1202, about what we have seen lately. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 12:49:14 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA21141; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:45:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:45:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943@aol.com> References: <1ad.1f55f5bf.2d552943@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:32:33 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1136026500==_ma============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"cGQBR1.0.AA5.jp_801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52952 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1136026500==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Found your article where you write that the discussion about possible mars fossils is based on data coming from below the useful threshold of pixel resolution: http://techcentralstation.com/020604D.html In the case of the features on some of the pebbles in the micro-photographs and the discussion we've had here, I think you're wrong. The striations and other features span many pixels and repetitions, occur only in specific places and orientations, and are inconsistent with the size and structure of random pixel occurrence or jpeg processing blotches in the same areas. That doesn't prove they are coral, crinoids, volcanic ash hail, mineral nodules formed in water, or anything else really, despite some surprising resemblances. But we're not turning an 8-pixel crosshatch into a parked airplane either. Many more of these kinds of features and their composition will have to be observed and taken in their full context to reach a solid conclusion about their identity, but there's really no denying that the data is showing that 1) they are real features occurring on natural objects on the martian surface, and 2) they represent structure and geometry that could reasonably be described as having organic fossil origins, among other possibilities. - Rick --============_-1136026500==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Coral on Mars?
Found your article where you write that the discussion about possible mars fossils is based on data coming from below the useful threshold of pixel resolution:

http://techcentralstation.com/020604D.html

In the case of the features on some of the pebbles in the micro-photographs and the discussion we've had here, I think you're wrong. The striations and other features span many pixels and repetitions, occur only in specific places and orientations, and are inconsistent with the size and structure of random pixel occurrence or jpeg processing blotches in the same areas. That doesn't prove they are coral, crinoids, volcanic ash hail, mineral nodules formed in water, or anything else really, despite some surprising resemblances. But we're not turning an 8-pixel crosshatch into a parked airplane either. Many more of these kinds of features and their composition will have to be observed and taken in their full context to reach a solid conclusion about their identity, but there's really no denying that the data is showing that 1) they are real features occurring on natural objects on the martian surface, and 2) they represent structure and geometry that could reasonably be described as having organic fossil origins, among other possibilities.

- Rick
--============_-1136026500==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 12:52:50 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA26813; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:49:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:49:56 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:37:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <811620pua4h96vfe01plb43ivlpi31rfv2@4ax.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"Rg4t2.0.cY6.ot_801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52954 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin Writes: >There were no rotor blades. There were no air intakes >(or holes of any sort for that matter). The >hull was apparently of one piece with a metallic lustre >that basically precludes ion propulsion (JLN), as the >metal in the hull would short out the high voltage. >There was no heat shimmer below the craft. Robin, I can't decide whether you're trolling us, or serious. Presuming the later, how about giving us the whole story? If you're serious and fear ridicule, post it as just that, a story. Let's face it, an observation like this is by it's nature unprovable, so why waste time arguing that point? This list is about speculation, so go ahead and speculate. It sounds like a good story. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 12:53:33 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA26653; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:49:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:49:49 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Coral on Mars? Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:14:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <25.43dfb7fe.2d5546b7@aol.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"piW2h2.0.OW6.it_801"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52953 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Eric. Robin may be serious, but I know you're trolling from that article on your website (grin). I sort of agree with it, but I don't think you can lump all that stuff together. After all, the whole reason we're there is to look for life. Perhaps you've never done science; it gets messy when you're on the leading edge of such a great unknown as this. I've yet to see anything yet from the data that convincingly looks like a fossil, but we're also hampered somewhat by the fact that we don't even know what a fossil alien life form might look like. We do have some evidence for fossil life on mars already, from mars meteor analysis here. http://www.resa.net/nasa/mars_life_meteor.htm So I'd amend that article of yours a bit. It's not such a stretch. By the way, it's been thrilling to follow this rover project. It's been years since I've followed the space program this closely. Shuttle trips to study ant farms in space really don't make it for me... 3/4 billion dollars have been well spent on the Rover project. K. -----Original Message----- From: Erikbaard@aol.com [mailto:Erikbaard@aol.com] Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? Scroll a little under 2/3 across and then about halfway on the vertical. And there's the crab. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 14:15:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26659; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:10:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:10:09 -0800 (PST) From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <186.24d610ca.2d556a8b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:09:15 EST Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_186.24d610ca.2d556a8b_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"uz4wO.0.UW6.z21901"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52955 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_186.24d610ca.2d556a8b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/6/04 3:48:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, rick@highsurf.com writes: > Found your article where you write that the discussion about possible mars > fossils is based on data coming from below the useful threshold of pixel > resolution: > > > Hi, I didn't write that. I did write about having advanced imagining systems and probes on site. I quoted a noted scientist regarding the pixels: <> My guess is that she has far more rigorous standards than we do, so even these photos that many of us find compelling are not even to sway her. I think Grinspoon's right though -- these people are EAGER to find life. And they are hardly tools of some conspiracy. Naturally, they are more careful with declarations -- we can make them and laugh them off if wrong. They lose credibility if such casual assessments don't pan out. But things do get overlooked. I'll have a very terrestrial next week about one such case, if I can find a buyer. : ) Best regards, Erik Baard www.baard.com --part1_186.24d610ca.2d556a8b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/6/04 3:48:40 P= M Eastern Standard Time, rick@highsurf.com writes:

Found your article where you wr= ite that the discussion about possible mars fossils is based on data coming=20= from below the useful threshold of pixel resolution:




Hi, I didn't write that.  I did write about having advanced imagining s= ystems and probes on site.  I quoted a noted scientist regarding the pi= xels:

<<The lack of any immediate sign of life hasn't dampened Boston's enth= usiasm. "I want to drive up to all of it," she said. But she knows that we'r= e in for a long haul. Remarking about whether the images inspiring the new g= ush of Martian sightings were actual fossils, she said, "If only that were t= rue! Everything looks unusual when there aren't enough pixels.">>

My guess is that she has far more rigorous standards than we do, so even the= se photos that many of us find compelling are not even to sway her.  I=20= think Grinspoon's right though -- these people are EAGER to find life. = And they are hardly tools of some conspiracy.  Naturally, they are mor= e careful with declarations -- we can make them and laugh them off if wrong.=   They lose credibility if such casual assessments don't pan out.

But things do get overlooked.  I'll have a very terrestrial next week a= bout one such case, if I can find a buyer.  : )

Best regards,

Erik Baard
www.baard.com --part1_186.24d610ca.2d556a8b_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 15:56:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA31965; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:54:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:54:52 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:54:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040206111517.01cb3848@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040206111517.01cb3848@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA31884 Resent-Message-ID: <"wX-ha1.0.Pp7.Cb2901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52956 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 06 Feb 2004 12:14:41 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk writes: > > > Actually, it only needs to be a 20 th of that distance. The distance you >quote above is more than twice the distance to the moon. > > Since we are talking about non-exitant cable materials anyway, we might >as well add a room temperature superconductor. > >That is a little unfair. The people trying to develop this sincerely think >they will have viable cable material within a few years. They do not claim ...and I sincerely think we will have room temperature superconductors within a few years, and I suspect Mark Goldes does too. [snip] >The International Space Station was initially envisioned as a launch >platform for deep space rockets, a role it would be totally unfit for. Why, surely all that is required is orbiting living quarters, and a place to keep tools? The ISS would seem to fit the bill reasonably well. [snip] > > Then the national secrets act must be pointless. > >Yes, it is. It has never worked in any country, except during major wars, >and for narrow discoveries that have no civilian application, such as the >"bombes" that broke the Enigma code. To take a concrete example, the There must be lots of people labouring under it in the black-ops world that would be surprised to hear you say that it doesn't work, and their observance of it is pointless. [snip] > > >research. But I cannot believe that antigravity has actually been >developed > > >into a practical device, capable of carrying people. > > > > Not surprising that you can't believe it. There has been an ongoing > > disinformation program going on for decades, the main drift of which > > is that anyone who believes in flying saucers isn't playing with a full >deck. > >Millions of people in the US firmly believe that flying saucers are real. >Claims that they are real are often featured in serious television >documentaries. This must be the most inept disinformation program on >record. As time goes by, and the number of sighting increases, it becomes more difficult to cover up the truth. Nevertheless the disinformation campaign has born fruit in as much as it won them decades of time in which to develop the technology. Even now it isn't clear just what stage they are at, and what percentage of sightings are real alien vehicles, and what percentage man made. >How is it that the government can convince most people that Saddam >Hussein and Bin Laden were allied, but it cannot convince people that UFOs >do not exist? Because there are lots of personal sightings of UFOs, but almost no one has personal knowledge of the relationship (or lack thereof) between Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden. >My hypothesis is that that the government does not care what >people think about UFOs. I think there are various factions, some of which want the truth to come out, and others that don't. In fact there are signs that the charade is coming to an end, the recent spate of blockbuster alien movies not least amongst them. > >There are some subjects the scientific establishment does not want the >pubic to hear about, such as Creationism, CF, and the hypothesis that AIDS >is not caused by the AIDS virus. The scientific establishment has >successful marginalized these subjects, even though President Bush and the >governor of the State of Georgia have voiced support for creationism, and >some polls show that more members of the public believe in creationism than >evolution. You do not see serious television documentaries on mainstream >channels asserting the Creationist point of view. (Some cable TV religious >channels do broadcast it.) Why is there no pressure to ban programs about >UFOlogy? I suggest you call your local radio/TV station, and ask them if there is a policy regarding the reporting of actual UFO sightings. I think you may find that there is a DOD ban on it. If not I would be most surprised. >I expect most scientists think UFOs are silly, and a waste of >time, but harmless. Probably correct. >Many others probably agree with me that we do not have >enough information to draw firm conclusions about UFOs, which is why they >are -- and should be -- called "unidentified." Actually I agree with you too, in as much as it is difficult determine which are alien and which are local. > > > > There were no rotor blades. There were no air intakes (or holes of any >sort for that matter). > >You said you saw the vehicle flying through the air, from below. Actually my line of sight was about 30 degrees from the horizontal. >You did >not see it from all sides. True, but I saw it from the side, and it appeared to be circularly symmetrical about the vertical axis. >Ground support military aircraft with no air >intakes visible from the ground were first built in 1918. They are quieter, >and somewhat harder to damage from the ground with small arms. The Japanese >nicknamed them "whispering death" during WWII. The B-2 bomber is a modern >example. Perhaps I should add that there were also no wings, or appendages of any kind. > > > > The hull was apparently of one piece with a metallic lustre > > that basically precludes ion propulsion (JLN), as the metal in the hull >would short out the high voltage. There was no heat shimmer below the craft. > >You have to be very close to see a heat shimmer! I see airplanes take off >and land all day, and I seldom see that. So be it. I'm just telling you what I did/didn't see. > >One more obvious question: if so much effort is being made to keep this >aircraft a secret, why did they fly it where you could see it? Where were >you, anyway? In the middle of White Sands Test Facility? I don't know for a fact that this was a military craft, or even of Earth origin. My original point was that AG is possible, and I suspect that the technology is known and in use, at least to some degree, in black-ops programs...and no I wasn't at White Sands, I was in my own back yard in a Melbourne (Australia) suburb. BTW one other small point that may/may not add credence to my contention that there are black-ops applications related to this technology. I was watching a program on either the BBC or discovery channel about modern jet fighters, and there was a video of a jet making a high-G manoeuvre coming out of a dive. Just at the instant of maximum G a spherical "bubble" suddenly appeared around the cockpit of the jet. It was only there for an instant, but I can think of no conventional explanation for it. Perhaps someone else can? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 15:58:39 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA32534; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:55:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:55:30 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:54:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040203163327.01cb3be8@pop.mindspring.com> <811620pua4h96vfe01plb43ivlpi31rfv2@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA32443 Resent-Message-ID: <"8OTSh3.0.Iy7.nb2901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52957 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jim Thumber's message of Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:08:59 -0500: Hi, [snip] >On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 14:33:52 +1100, you wrote: > >> >>Not surprising that you can't believe it. There has been an ongoing disinformation program going on for decades, the main drift of which is that anyone who believes in flying saucers isn't playing with a full deck. >>I wasn't sure myself, till I saw it with my own eyes. >> > >Would you tell us what you saw. The more details, the better. The details are coming out bit by bit in other posts. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 16:02:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA03860; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:59:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:59:58 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Space elevators compared to various launch vehicles Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:59:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <811620pua4h96vfe01plb43ivlpi31rfv2@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA03813 Resent-Message-ID: <"bboXa.0.Ay.zf2901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52958 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Fri, 06 Feb 2004 14:37:18 -0500: Hi, >Robin Writes: >>There were no rotor blades. There were no air intakes >>(or holes of any sort for that matter). The >>hull was apparently of one piece with a metallic lustre >>that basically precludes ion propulsion (JLN), as the >>metal in the hull would short out the high voltage. >>There was no heat shimmer below the craft. > >Robin, I can't decide whether you're trolling us, >or serious. Quite serious. >Presuming the later, how about giving >us the whole story? Read my previous post from the archive, and combine it with my recent posts here. >If you're serious and fear >ridicule, post it as just that, a story. Let's >face it, an observation like this is by it's nature unprovable, >so why waste time arguing that point? This list >is about speculation, so go ahead and speculate. >It sounds like a good story. There isn't much more to tell. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 16:25:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA25040; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:24:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:24:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <186.24d610ca.2d556a8b@aol.com> References: <186.24d610ca.2d556a8b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:24:00 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Coral on Mars? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1136009034==_ma============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"eCW0k1.0.376.z03901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52959 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1136009034==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Erik - Sorry, I missed that that was a quote from someone else. But since you used it in the context of an article generally disparaging to internet talk of mars coral specifically as well as other far more speculative interpretations of space imagery, I figured that meant us. >Hi, I didn't write that. I did write about having advanced >imagining systems and probes on site. I quoted a noted scientist >regarding the pixels: > ><enthusiasm. "I want to drive up to all of it," she said. But she >knows that we're in for a long haul. Remarking about whether the >images inspiring the new gush of Martian sightings were actual >fossils, she said, "If only that were true! Everything looks unusual >when there aren't enough pixels.">> > >My guess is that she has far more rigorous standards than we do, so >even these photos that many of us find compelling are not even to >sway her. I think Grinspoon's right though -- these people are >EAGER to find life. And they are hardly tools of some conspiracy. >Naturally, they are more careful with declarations -- we can make >them and laugh them off if wrong. They lose credibility if such >casual assessments don't pan out. Rigorous standards, sure. A *working* scientist needs them. I, on the other hand, *should* be working but instead I'm chatting here. Much looser standards apply. >But things do get overlooked. I'll have a very terrestrial next >week about one such case, if I can find a buyer. : ) What's that, an article? BTW, there are plenty of rock/mineral samples right here on earth that defy identification - things that could be fossils or some sort of weird mineral arrangement - or even of purposeful manufacture by intelligent beings in some cases. There's some metal objects that, as far as I know, can't be identified as being any of: organic fossil, natural inorganic mineral formation, man-or-other intelligent manufacture. Plenty of terrestrial rock samples remain in the fossil/mineral grey box, ask any rockhound. It might turn out to be really hard to determine what odd Mars rocks really are, even if we had them here by sample return mission. Yuk! I sure hope it's more definitive than that with these rovers. Wish that stupid Beagle hadn't gotten lost. - Rick --============_-1136009034==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Coral on Mars?
Erik -

Sorry, I missed that that was a quote from someone else. But since you used it in the context of an article generally disparaging to internet talk of mars coral specifically as well as other far more speculative interpretations of space imagery, I figured that meant us.

Hi, I didn't write that.  I did write about having advanced imagining systems and probes on site.  I quoted a noted scientist regarding the pixels:

<<The lack of any immediate sign of life hasn't dampened Boston's enthusiasm. "I want to drive up to all of it," she said. But she knows that we're in for a long haul. Remarking about whether the images inspiring the new gush of Martian sightings were actual fossils, she said, "If only that were true! Everything looks unusual when there aren't enough pixels.">>

My guess is that she has far more rigorous standards than we do, so even these photos that many of us find compelling are not even to sway her.  I think Grinspoon's right though -- these people are EAGER to find life.  And they are hardly tools of some conspiracy.  Naturally, they are more careful with declarations -- we can make them and laugh them off if wrong.  They lose credibility if such casual assessments don't pan out.

Rigorous standards, sure. A *working* scientist needs them. I, on the other hand, *should* be working but instead I'm chatting here. Much looser standards apply. <g>


But things do get overlooked.  I'll have a very terrestrial next week about one such case, if I can find a buyer.  : )


What's that, an article?

BTW, there are plenty of rock/mineral samples right here on earth that defy identification - things that could be fossils or some sort of weird mineral arrangement - or even of purposeful manufacture by intelligent beings in some cases. There's some metal objects that, as far as I know, can't be identified as being any of: organic fossil, natural inorganic mineral formation, man-or-other intelligent manufacture. Plenty of terrestrial rock samples remain in the fossil/mineral grey box, ask any rockhound. It might turn out to be really hard to determine what odd Mars rocks really are, even if we had them here by sample return mission. Yuk! I sure hope it's more definitive than that with these rovers. Wish that stupid Beagle hadn't gotten lost.

- Rick
--============_-1136009034==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 17:36:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA13536; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:34:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:34:57 -0800 Message-ID: <40243939.1090705@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:02:49 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Earth Spherical Fossils Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LAiCA1.0.BJ3.034901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52960 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, mr alien, One extinct species has a remarkable resemblance to the "fossils" in Opportunity's microscopic images, the species radiolaria: http://www.num.nagoya-u.ac.jp/database/palaeont/rad1/Rad_pt_1/Acm.htm images # 116, 141, 188, 229, 309, 345, 347, 352, 361, and 369. Many, especially those in the 3XX numbers even have a hole at one end. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 18:34:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA26436; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:33:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:33:49 -0800 Message-ID: <40244EA6.1010309@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 21:34:14 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: "Mars Volcano" .tif file Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Oo5Jo2.0.-S6.Dw4901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52961 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 10.8 Mb here: http://www.sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=34528 The large file URL is at the right. On this page: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=34532 the caption for that image (midway down) says: "The dark feature to the left of the image is, as yet, of undetermined composition." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 18:43:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA32180; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:41:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:41:24 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:45:35 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Earth Spherical Fossils Resent-Message-ID: <"oD7cC.0.hs7.J15901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52962 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:32 AM 2/6/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >...there's >really no denying that the data is showing that 1) they are real >features occurring on natural objects on the martian surface, and 2) >they represent structure and geometry that could reasonably be >described as having organic fossil origins, among other possibilities. > Amen to that! Saved me the trouble of writing it myself. At 8:02 PM 2/6/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >One extinct species has a remarkable resemblance to the "fossils" in >Opportunity's microscopic images, the species radiolaria: > >http://www.num.nagoya-u.ac.jp/database/palaeont/rad1/Rad_pt_1/Acm.htm > >images # 116, 141, 188, 229, 309, 345, 347, 352, 361, and 369. > > >Many, especially those in the 3XX numbers even have a hole at one end. Very interesting observation. The Mars variety, if they be such or similar, apper to be about 10 times larger that the bigger terrestrial radiolaria. This is based on typical sizes of 20 -300 micrometers for terretrial species, and the assumption that the area of the picture where the impression was made in soil is about 3 cm on a side. I noticed several "rocks" in the Mars photos that were roughly the shape of bird or reptile skulls, including two "eye sockets". There are several examples of radiolaria having a roughly similar shape (e.g. 325) and bilateral symmetry. Just another note of possible but mostly unrelated interest. If you go to: and then to Opportunity SOL 12 Panoramic Camera photos, you will see a series of photos of a single area, beginning with Row 4, Column 1 and continuing to Row 5 Column 3. These photos were taken at 12:06, 12:07:07, 12:07:38, 12:08, 12:09, 12:10, and 12:39, using fiters 2, 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 respectively. Only in the Row 4, Column 2 picture (12:07:07) can you clearly see a semi-circular like depression or feature. In all the other photos it is very hard to spot. Right on the left border of the feature is a "radiolaria", or spherical white rock. This is seen as white with filter 1 (i.e. in Row 4, Column 2), but nearly black with filters 2, 3, 4, and 5. It is partially visible with filters 6 and 7. It's color characteristics are thus very different from the rest of the "rocks". The big depression or feature only shows up with one filter, so that is really fairly novel. Wonder what caused that? There are other examples of similar "rocks" which appear and disappear (at least as a bright white rock), depending on filter. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 19:43:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA13934; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:41:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:41:34 -0800 Message-ID: <40245F06.DCDAB921@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:44:06 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 06, 2004] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2sZX2.0.fP3.kv5901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52963 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 06, 2004 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:58:07 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: whatsnew@bobpark.org To: Akira Kawasaki WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 6 Feb 04 Washington, DC 1. PRIMARY SCOOP: "ALL THE NEWS THAT'S FIT TO PRINT" AND MORE. Like other Americans, we at What's New follow the Presidential Primaries closely. But where could we turn to get beyond campaign rhetoric to the very character of the candidates? The New York Times, of course, the venerable "gray lady" of newspapers. We hear they've had some problems at the Times lately, but they sure scooped the competition with this one. It was on the op-ed page, which is not easy to get on. "The Stars Have Voted" by Erin Sullivan, relies on astrological charts of Democratic candidates. Did you know you can learn all about people if you just know their birthdays? It turns out the paper, then called the Daily Times, began on 18 Sep 1851. That makes the New York Times a Virgo, the only zodiacal sign represented by a woman. She is somewhat older and intelligent, but she can be rather pedantic and spinsterish. Yeah, that's the New York Times all right. But what if it's not true that a person's character is determined by their birth date? Wouldn't that mean the story was made up? 2. NUCLEAR WEAPONS: OFFICIALS THROW YELLOW FLAG IN THE END ZONE. The Defense Authorization lifted a decades-old ban on research into low-yield nuclear weapons, blurring the distinction between conventional and nuclear (WN 28 Nov 03). Pentagon Hawks could not suppress their glee. Linton Brooks, head of the National Nuclear Security Administration, sent a memo to weapons lab directors urging them to take advantage of the change before Congress spells out what "advanced concepts" are (WN 19 Dec 03). Brooks' end-zone celebration did not go unnoticed. Last week, Congressional leaders accused Brooks of bad faith. "We took you at your word that you were willing to redefine Advanced Concepts ...it's now apparent that those were hollow assurances." That's about as strong as language ever gets in this town. 3. CREATIONISM: "MONKEYS-TO-MAN SORT OF THING" IS UNDER ATTACK. Guidelines proposed for science classes in Georgia omitted the word "evolution." After the Atlanta Journal-Constitution published an article about the proposed changes, the state's superintendent of schools, Kathy Cox explained that evolution is "a buzz word that causes a lot of negative reaction." It was replaced with "changes over time." But by Thursday, following a flood of criticism, she was recommending "evolution" be restored. Former President Jimmy Carter had said that he was embarrassed for the state. Governor Sonny Perdue said restoring the word "evolution" was "the right thing to do." Meanwhile in Ohio, creationists are again seeking to force their religious views into public school classrooms, this time through the back door. Lesson plans up for approval at an Ohio Board of Education meeting on Monday and Tuesday include intelligent design, as well as young-Earth creationism. The cases in Georgia and Ohio once again make it clear that for science education to remain free of religious dictates, we must stay informed and organized. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 23:50:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA25938; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 23:49:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 23:49:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 21:48:44 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Earth Spherical Fossils Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA25560 Resent-Message-ID: <"ivyXF1.0.8L6.xX9901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52964 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - At 5:45 PM -0900 2/6/04, Horace Heffner wrote: >There are other examples of similar "rocks" which >appear and disappear (at least as a bright white rock), depending on >filter. I think that might be the blue filter. I like to go after the blue channel in Photoshop when cleaning up an image, because it seems that's where the underlying geometry to the picture lives. You can take the mars images they've composited together for 'full color' for instance, select only the blue channel, brighten it up, and you can easily see the stitch lines, jpeg blotches, etc. Sometimes it's a helpful technique for clearing up certain image mysteries. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 00:20:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA17628; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 00:19:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 00:19:36 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40245F06.DCDAB921@ix.netcom.com> References: <40245F06.DCDAB921@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 22:18:54 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Mars balls are hollow Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"p1x-E1.0.LJ4.N-9901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52965 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some of the spheres are apparently hollow. You can see several that have the appearance of having collapsed or sheared off, revealing a circular rim and concave interior. Others that appear sheared seem to have a flat interior surface. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/013/1P129333669EFF0242P2375L7M1.JPG Additionally in some of the outcrop images, I can see some spheres protruding from the layered rock in a way that indicates these things were laid down with that sediment, not thrown on top of it later. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 03:06:35 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA30302; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 03:05:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 03:05:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <40245F06.DCDAB921@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 01:04:05 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Stromatolites & spheres Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA30248 Resent-Message-ID: <"uINJC.0.QP7.VPC901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52966 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Have a look here: http://www.uwm.edu/People/wkean/fieldtrip/davebren/animike.htm The characteristics of those rocks should now look familiar. But scroll down to the strip mine image and see what minerals they're after - same ones they're looking for with Opportunity. Been looking at the sol 13 outcropping images for a while, and it's pretty clear that rows of spheres are included in the layers. You can see them in there like peas in pods, and while I suppose it's possible that they got sorted out by size and were trapped in layers by finer sediment, the context of the wavy stromatolite-looking material suggests they formed in there. Can the spectrometer do carbonates? There's one other fossil-like feature I want to point out too: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/013/1P129343709EFF0300P2376R1M1.JPG ...from the sol 13 pancam set. The left-most of the larger light colored flat rocks, upper center. Zoom in a bit to see a strip of rectangular bars, sort of like a crinoid stem imprint (or a barcode!). Not rounded like the sphere rows, and probably not an image artifact either- maybe an airbag strike? - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 06:33:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA25953; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 06:31:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 06:31:42 -0800 Message-ID: <4024F698.9050802@cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:30:48 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stromatolites & spheres References: <40245F06.DCDAB921@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yjLXD1.0.TL6.ERF901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52967 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Have a look here: > >http://www.uwm.edu/People/wkean/fieldtrip/davebren/animike.htm > >The characteristics of those rocks should now look familiar... > If you look closely at the rock they're about to grind into (Adirondack ) you can see it is one object coated with a thick layer of something else, which becomes very distinct with a particular color filter., like a cake with icing. With one particular color filter, you can see a pipe between the layers at the upper left junction, yet it's totally invisible with other color filters! There were several examples with pipes emerging from rocks from the Pathfinder mission. I think a large percentage of these "rocks" are really fossils or living organisms -- JPL will be in for some surprises. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 07:33:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA32533; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:30:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:30:56 -0800 Message-ID: <402504CD.2090503@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:31:25 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Anomaly in Martain Sky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9NK_G3.0.9y7.mIG901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52968 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What is that hovering above the horizon in this image: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/033/2N129300816EFF0327P1730L0M1.JPG from the Spirit Navcam on sol 33? (Hint: it's not visible on the right image taken at the same time ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 08:11:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA30788; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:09:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:09:29 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Stromatolites & spheres Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 23:08:07 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"q8oPq2.0._W7.usG901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52969 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Saturday, 2004 February 07 18:04 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Stromatolites & spheres > > > Have a look here: > > http://www.uwm.edu/People/wkean/fieldtrip/davebren/animike.htm > nice link on iron deposition > Been looking at the sol 13 outcropping images for a while, and > it's pretty clear that rows of spheres are included in the > layers. You can see them in there like peas in pods, and while I > suppose it's possible that they got sorted out by size and were > trapped in layers by finer sediment, the context of the wavy > stromatolite-looking material suggests they formed in there. Can > the spectrometer do carbonates? Somewhere I thought I saw it said they already picked it up, one of the early spectro graphs should have it. Fairly clear the formations are cyclic sedimentations, now we get to wait for the grinder to determine whether they are friable ash deposits or water-cemented formations. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 08:29:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA11361; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:27:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:27:48 -0800 From: Jim Thumber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ESA Photo - Stepped Pyramid and Underground Entrance? Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:28:52 -0500 Message-ID: References: <401BD8F1.4020706@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <401BD8F1.4020706@rtpatlanta.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AskBy.0.Rn2.38H901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52970 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:33:53 -0500, you wrote: >http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_18_mesa_p.jpg > >Zoom in on the top apex of the image. Bizarre! > Quite a picture. The steps off to the side of the building or pyramid are at right-angles to the ones in front; is that likely with a picture artifact? The whole area off to the side of the building has a suspicious regularity about it; it looks like badly eroded low structures, maybe plinths of some kind. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 10:27:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA23970; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 10:23:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 10:23:21 -0800 From: Baronvolsung@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:22:41 EST Subject: Generalized Scalar Wave Energy Equations & Papers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1076178161" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5007 Resent-Message-ID: <"mSh_1.0.Ss5.OqI901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52971 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1076178161 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have enclosed below a quotes on the Generalized Scalar Wave Energy Equation and links to Scalar Wave Energy papers in PDF format. "4.3 Generalized energy and momentum theorems Within the generalized Lorentz force equation JDeltaA=F we can substitute for J its definition in terms of potentials, 1/u Square A. Then we get: Square A Delta A=uF, where Delta is the reverse triangle symbol When we evaluate the imaginary scalar part of this equation in terms of fields and sources, we get the following energy equation: u(E Dot J -pc^2S)=-d/2dt[S^2+1/c^2E^2 +B^2] -Delta Dot (ExB+ES), where Dot is the Dot "." Operator. The term ES represents an extra power flux that can be associated with the longitudinal electroscalar wave. The pointing vector E x B is usually associated with the transversal electromagnetic wave. The energy term S^2 is the energy stored in the field S. Pg. 9 and 10 Electrodynamics with the scalar field by K.J. van Vlaenderen and A. Waser, October 27, 2001. " "Electrodynamics in Biquaternion Form ... By expanding the imaginary scalar part and the real vector part of this equation on finds the well know energy and momentum theorems: u(J Dot E) = -d/2dt[1/c^2 E^2 + B^2] - Delta Dot (ExB) u(pE+JxB) = [1/c^2 ((Delta Dot E)E + (Delta x E) XE) + (Delta x B) X B] -1/c^2 d(ExB)/dt This demonstrates that electrodynamics can be cast in biquaternion form. By considering a non-zero real scalar and imaginary vector part in the current biquaternion, one can introduce the magnetic monopole and magnetic current. A magnetic 4 current is imaginary with respect to the electric 4 current. The total current can be called an 8 current. One can also consider an 8-potential or an 8-Lorentz force with a non-zero real scalar and imaginary wave part in A or in F. Pg 5 Electrodynamics with the scalar field by K.J. van Vlaenderen and A. Waser, October 27, 2001 " " Conclusions It is possible to describe classical electrodynamics in the form of two biquaternion equations. This form is very useful in order to generalize electrodynamics. Generalizing the Maxwell equation by introducing an extra scalar field is comparable with Maxwell's introduction of the displacement current that allowed for the derivation of the homogeneous field wave equations. This theory predicts the existence of longitudinal electroscalar waves in vacuum. Such a wave might be used to transmit and receive signals. The power density vector of LES waves ES, thus energetic and wireless signals might be transmittable in LES wave form and received at a distance. Pg 12 Electrodynamics with the scalar field by K.J. van Vlaenderen and A. Waser, October 27, 2001" Links to Scalar Wave Energy Equations and Papers: Scalar Waves Theory and Experiments by Konstantin Meyl (Scalarwaveskgood1.pdf) Electric Scalar Waves Review to Mel's Experiment (scalarwavesensor_technology.pdf) Electrodynamics With the Scalar Field By Vlaenderen and Weser(scalarwaveElectrodynamicsWithTheScalarField03.pdf) Energetics Of FerroMagnetism by Leon Dragon (scalarwavemathDragone.pdf) Analysis of FerroMagnetism (scalarwavemathDragoneAnalysis.pdf) Scalar Wave Books and Experimental Equipment Translated Form German into English by Konstantin Meyl: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.k-meyl.de/&prev =/search%3Fq%3Dkonstantin%2Bmeyl%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%2 6sa%3DG Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com -------------------------------1076178161 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have enclosed below a quotes on the Generalized Scalar Wave Energy Eq= uation and links to Scalar Wave Energy papers in PDF format.
 
"4.3 Generalized energy and momentum theorems
   
    Within the generalized Lorentz force equation JDelta= A=3DF we can substitute for J its
    definition in terms of potentials, 1/u Square A.&nbs= p; Then we get:
 
              &n= bsp;         Square A Delta A=3DuF, where Delt= a is the reverse triangle symbol
 
When we evaluate the imaginary scalar part of this equation in terms of fie= lds and sources, we get the following energy equation:
 
    u(E Dot J -pc^2S)=3D-d/2dt[S^2+1/c^2E^2 +B^2] -Delta Dot= (ExB+ES), where Dot is the Dot "." Operator.
 
The term ES represents an extra power flux that can be associat= ed with the longitudinal electroscalar wave.  The pointing vec= tor E x B is usually associated with the transversal electromagnetic wave.&n= bsp;  The energy term S^2 is the energy stored in the field S. &nb= sp;
 
Pg. 9 and 10 Electrodynamics with the scalar field by K.J. van Vla= enderen and A. Waser, October 27, 2001. "
 
 
"Electrodynamics in Biquaternion Form ...
 
By expanding the imaginary scalar part and the real vector part of this= equation on finds the well know energy and momentum theorems:
 
u(J Dot E) =3D -d/2dt[1/c^2 E^2 + B^2] - Delta Dot (ExB)
u(pE+JxB) =3D [1/c^2 ((Delta Dot E)E + (Delta x E) XE) + (Delta x B) X=20= B] -1/c^2 d(ExB)/dt
 
This demonstrates that electrodynamics can be cast in biquaternion form= . By considering a non-zero real scalar and imaginary vector part in the cur= rent biquaternion, one can introduce the magnetic monopole and magnetic curr= ent.  A magnetic 4 current is imaginary with respect to the electric 4=20= current. The total current can be called an 8 current.  One can also co= nsider an 8-potential or an 8-Lorentz force with a non-zero real scalar and=20= imaginary wave part in A or in F. 
 
Pg 5  Electrodynamics with the scalar field by K.J. van Vlaen= deren and A. Waser, October 27, 2001 "
 
" Conclusions
 
It is possible to describe classical electrodynamics in the form of two= biquaternion equations.  This form is very useful in order to generali= ze electrodynamics.  Generalizing the Maxwell equation by introducing a= n extra scalar field is comparable with Maxwell's introduction of the displa= cement current that allowed for the derivation of the homogeneous field wave= equations.  This theory predicts the existence of longitudinal electro= scalar waves in vacuum.  Such a wave might be used to transmit and rece= ive signals.  The power density vector of LES waves ES, thus energetic=20= and wireless signals might be transmittable in LES wave form and received at= a distance.
 
Pg 12  Electrodynamics with the scalar field by K.J. van Vlae= nderen and A. Waser, October 27, 2001"
 

Scalar Wave Books and Experimental Equipment Translated Form German= into English
by Konstantin Meyl:
 
 

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,
Email= : www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.c= om\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiat= ion Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com
 -------------------------------1076178161-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 13:06:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA18663; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:04:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:04:44 -0800 Message-ID: <40255307.4000501@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 16:05:11 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Mars Spheres are Imbeded Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9AMB61.0.OZ4.gBL901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52972 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Opportunity PamCam Sol 33 images confirm Monteverde's assertion that the spheres are imbeded in the outcropping: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/013/1P129341644EFF0300P2376R2M1.JPG This is an image of the rock named "Snout" (likely because it looks like the snout of the triceratops fossil :-) In the space where the two major pieces have separated, there is a large sphere imbedded in the larger rock in the gap (on the left). Isn't it fun being an armchair exobiologist? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 13:23:20 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA31289; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:21:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:21:28 -0800 Message-ID: <402556F0.3020809@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 16:21:52 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Spheres - Bad News/Good News Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4RES01.0.qe7.NRL901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52973 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Googling "spherical hematite" is quite revealing, particularly: http://www.ugs.state.ut.us/online/pdf/pi-77.pdf The bad news, the spheres are likely not fossils. The good news, spherical hematite forms in sedimentary rocks, not volcanic! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 13:29:09 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA02825; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:27:46 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:32:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Anomaly in Martain Sky Resent-Message-ID: <"9W6-j3.0.2i.IXL901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52974 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:31 AM 2/7/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >What is that hovering above the horizon in this image: > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/033/2N129300816EFF0327P1730L >0M1.JPG > >from the Spirit Navcam on sol 33? > >(Hint: it's not visible on the right image taken at the same time ;-) There are two sky anomalies in that photo. Another one is at the far upper left. My guess is probably a transmission problem, but it could be a flash memory anomaly which has now been reformatted out? It is notable that the light side of the "object" in the sky at the top left of the image is on the worng side, i.e. away from the sun. Another logical explanation is that the objects are self lit bugs which are flying uyp close to just one lense, and probably by using anti-gravity no less! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 13:29:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA02990; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:27:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:27:50 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:32:09 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mars balls are hollow Resent-Message-ID: <"dwxUU3.0.ak.LXL901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52975 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:18 PM 2/6/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Some of the spheres are apparently hollow. You can see several that have >the appearance of having collapsed or sheared off, revealing a circular >rim and concave interior. Others that appear sheared seem to have a flat >interior surface. > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/013/1P129333669EFF0242P2375L >7M1.JPG > >Additionally in some of the outcrop images, I can see some spheres >protruding from the layered rock in a way that indicates these things were >laid down with that sediment, not thrown on top of it later. > >- Rick Amen to the above. There are numerous examples in the Opportunity Sol 13 Pancam images. Those Opportunity Sol 13 Pancam images are simply stunning. Life indications or not, this is simply an amazing feat. Also interesting is the fact that you can see the occasional pair of balls that are mushed together, as if they were soft when they were joined, or possibly were accreted/deposited/formed at the same time. Reminiscent of mitosis. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 14:12:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA32727; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:09:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:09:51 -0800 Message-ID: <4025624D.1090308@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 17:10:21 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars balls are hollow References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4-Z5c2.0.J_7.k8M901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52976 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >lso interesting is the fact that you can see the occasional pair of balls >that are mushed together, as if they were soft when they were joined, or >possibly were accreted/deposited/formed at the same time. Reminiscent of >mitosis. 8^) > Yeah, but also an example of Moqui Marbles or Moqui Balls. Some theories associate these with an iron meteorite impact. Also called Moki or Mochi. This would explain why the hematite indicators disappear where the airbags bounced. The spherical hematite is simply pressed into the sand. I think I prefer my imagination to science. :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 14:59:10 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA24309; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:54:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:54:22 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomaly in Martain Sky Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 09:53:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <13ra20lsl4hsqf38nf4mvj4gdtc43lbdf9@4ax.com> References: <402504CD.2090503@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <402504CD.2090503@rtpatlanta.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA24284 Resent-Message-ID: <"1JqDU2.0.nx5.UoM901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52977 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:31:25 -0500: Hi, [snip] >What is that hovering above the horizon in this image: > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/033/2N129300816EFF0327P1730L0M1.JPG > >from the Spirit Navcam on sol 33? > >(Hint: it's not visible on the right image taken at the same time ;-) Could it be one of the Martian moons? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 15:22:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA06909; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:20:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:20:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4025624D.1090308@rtpatlanta.com> References: <4025624D.1090308@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:20:30 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mars balls are hollow Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA06876 Resent-Message-ID: <"lwDRo.0.th1.EBN901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52978 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - >I think I prefer my imagination to science. :-) I'll second that! Lots of spheres in the recent images are dark, but I can't tell if that's dusting/staining or just that they're really dark colored. Many appear to be dark and also specular, so maybe they are hematite nodules. OTOH, the spheres littering the earlier soil shots are light colored, and there are light colored spheres nested in rows in some of those lighter rocks. If the spheres are themselves a type of stromatolite or something similar having a layered accretion structure made of stuff like the surrounding rock, they could have color variations in them as well, as one darker object in an earlier microphotographs indicated. But I'm pretty sure those white spheres aren't hematite, at least on their surface. I saw one set of Horace's breeding pairs, but can't tell if it was just two broken halves that happened to be posed together, or a real double-sphere. I think it's the same image area that also shows a more elongated smooth object about the size of the larger spheres in diameter, but two or three times that in length. Maybe he's the giant sentient bacillus leader of all the giant sentient coccus forms! Dittos Horace: whether this stuff is organic or not, it's still mind-boggling. I mean, when you go to all the trouble of getting to an alien world, you want to see some alien sh*t, you know? Not boring rocks like Adirondack, a.k.a. the olivine-bearing basalt doorstop on my back porch. Some of those rock formations with the spheres sticking out of them look like something H.R. Gieger ("Alien") would have sculpted. Now *that's* a well spent space program buck! Snaps to the good folks @ JPL & NASA. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 16:04:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA01444; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:00:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:00:53 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <23.3a81ca0a.2d56d611@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:00:17 EST Subject: Re: Mars balls are hollow To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_23.3a81ca0a.2d56d611_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"5S51A3.0.TM.rmN901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52979 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_23.3a81ca0a.2d56d611_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/7/04 5:12:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, blantont@rtpatlanta.com writes: > Yeah, but also an example of Moqui Marbles or Moqui Balls. Some > theories associate these with an iron meteorite impact. > > Also called Moki or Mochi. > > As in mochi ice cream? Now that's real genius -- turning ice cream into finger food. If only NASA could claim that as a spin-off technology! : ) Erik Baard --part1_23.3a81ca0a.2d56d611_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/7/04 5:12:55 P= M Eastern Standard Time, blantont@rtpatlanta.com writes:

Yeah, but also an example of Mo= qui Marbles or Moqui Balls.  Some
theories associate these with an iron meteorite impact.

Also called Moki or Mochi.



As in mochi ice cream?  Now that's real genius -- turning ice cream int= o finger food.  If only NASA could claim that as a spin-off technology!=   : )

Erik Baard

 --part1_23.3a81ca0a.2d56d611_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 16:06:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA03428; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:03:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:03:48 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <40245F06.DCDAB921@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:03:35 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Spheres within spheres Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA03405 Resent-Message-ID: <"2tjLR.0.Ur.apN901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52980 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gee, I was going to go back to work, and sol 14 stuff arrives. Close-ups of several light colored spheres - again some subtle structure I couldn't quite suss out before, but now I think I see it across several samples there: spheres made of packed spheres. On a partially eroded sphere in the upper right of several of the new images you can actually see a small row of 3 exposed tiny spheres on its surface, as well as similar forms on that and some of the other spheres. It's close to the pixel resolution so caution is advised, but it may explain what appears to be the 3 and/or 6 sided appearance of the planes of the structure as being from sphere-packing. And just off the middle left edge of one of the shadowed images, there's an apparent fused pair like Horace saw. All light colored spheres. Anyone know of a mineral that forms like that? - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 16:26:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA17447; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:24:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:24:49 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:24:13 EST Subject: Re: Spheres within spheres To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"4t1jQ3.0.ZG4.H7O901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52981 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/7/04 7:06:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, rick@highsurf.com writes: > And just off the middle left edge of one of the shadowed images, there's an > apparent fused pair like Horace saw. All light colored spheres. Anyone know > of a mineral that forms like that? > > I noticed the fused spheres independently and thought of them as an argument against life -- they seemed like blobs that simply ran into each other and not of a scale appropriate to cells undergoing fission. Naturally, we don't know anything about how Mars creatures would reproduce, colonize, etc. But isn't the simpler explanation to be favored? Erik Baard --part1_103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/7/04 7:06:50 P= M Eastern Standard Time, rick@highsurf.com writes:

And just off the middle left ed= ge of one of the shadowed images, there's an apparent fused pair like Horace= saw. All light colored spheres. Anyone know of a mineral that forms like th= at?



I noticed the fused spheres independently and thought of them as an argument= against life -- they seemed like blobs that simply ran into each other and=20= not of a scale appropriate to cells undergoing fission.  Naturally, we=20= don't know anything about how Mars creatures would reproduce, colonize, etc.=   But isn't the simpler explanation to be favored?

Erik Baard --part1_103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 18:07:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA31989; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:05:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:05:34 -0800 Message-ID: <402593B1.7030209@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:41:05 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spheres within spheres References: <103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VwQ_Y3.0.fp7.kbP901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52982 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Erikbaard@aol.com wrote: > But isn't the simpler explanation to be favored? Yeah, parsimony takes the fun out, usually. But, wouldn't moqui balls formed in a lower gravity be larger? Some of those Utah moqui balls are as big as a tennis ball. Or, is it the thin atmosphere which makes the Mars Moqui MARbles smaller. Either way, Mars is a gold mine. Those bloody moqui balls are $4 each. But they *do* have healing powers. ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 18:57:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA03679; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:55:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:55:06 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <402593B1.7030209@rtpatlanta.com> References: <103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad@aol.com> <402593B1.7030209@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:54:52 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Spheres within spheres Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"V4YFX2.0.Pv.AKQ901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52983 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - >Or, is it the thin atmosphere which makes the Mars Moqui MARbles smaller. > >Either way, Mars is a gold mine. Those bloody moqui balls are $4 each. But they *do* have healing powers. ;-) I caught that! MMM's. Test market 'em on eBay, go through national distributors when the Big News breaks. Smart, Blanton. Remember me when you're hosting "The Apprentice" in a couple of seasons after Trump moves on - I knew ya back when. ;-) - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 00:59:07 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA12179; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 00:57:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 00:57:19 -0800 From: hamdix@iris.com.tr Message-ID: <003301c3ee21$a61a9fc0$c864a8c0@win98> To: References: <402504CD.2090503@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Anomaly in Martain Sky Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:57:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"rOpmL2.0.A-2.ldV901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52984 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another one was here. A quote from me, recently: ".. the sky appeared populated by something in that photo . See full res. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/004/1P128541655EFF0205P2353R3M1.HTML Maybe this is a rule. :) Whatever where you go, you can always see something moving in the sky." > (Hint: it's not visible on the right image taken at the same time ;-) As well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: 07 February 2004 17:31 Subject: Anomaly in Martain Sky > What is that hovering above the horizon in this image: > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/033/2N129300816EFF0327P1730L0M1.JPG > > from the Spirit Navcam on sol 33? > > (Hint: it's not visible on the right image taken at the same time ;-) > Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 01:37:49 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA03553; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 01:37:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 01:37:09 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 04:36:31 EST Subject: Re: Anomaly in Martain Sky To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_fb.4f8e148d.2d575d1f_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"Tn30E3.0.St.4DW901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52985 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_fb.4f8e148d.2d575d1f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://charlescrosbie.com/images/marsdot/ http://charlescrosbie.com/images/marsdot/2N129300816EFF0327P1730L0M1_DOTROD2.j pg http://charlescrosbie.com/images/marsdot/dot4_420.jpg --part1_fb.4f8e148d.2d575d1f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://charlescrosbie.com/images/ma= rsdot/
http://charlescrosbie.com/images/marsdot/2N129300816EFF0327P1730L0M1_DOTROD2= .jpg

http://cha= rlescrosbie.com/images/marsdot/dot4_420.jpg


 --part1_fb.4f8e148d.2d575d1f_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 08:02:03 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA29479; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 07:59:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 07:59:33 -0800 Message-ID: <001001c3ee5c$63c28440$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Anomaly in Martain Sky Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 07:58:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA29417 Resent-Message-ID: <"jHnHY2.0.ZC7.bpb901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52986 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: > http://charlescrosbie.com/images/marsdot/ The updated images this morning (Sunday) are even better. However, in this thread on another forum, http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=12&sid=ba827884a57b6ff4af95a5103ae32afd They are reporting that the left navcam has some bad pixels... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 08:14:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA02314; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:10:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:10:07 -0800 Message-ID: <40265F7A.20409@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 11:10:34 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anomaly in Martain Sky References: <001001c3ee5c$63c28440$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <001001c3ee5c$63c28440$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OdSow2.0.5a.Uzb901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52987 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >However, in this thread on another forum, >http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=12&sid=ba827884a57b6ff4af95a5103ae32afd > > >They are reporting that the left navcam has some bad pixels... > The next thread down has this great animation of what happens when the RAT snags :-) http://images.spaceref.com/news/2004/rover.armspin.mov From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 08:49:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA25836; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:46:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:46:42 -0800 Message-ID: <002401c3ee62$f97b02e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001001c3ee5c$63c28440$8837fea9@cpq> <40265F7A.20409@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Anomaly in Martain Sky Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:45:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA25787 Resent-Message-ID: <"ulzmH.0.bJ6.nVc901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52988 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes, > http://images.spaceref.com/news/2004/rover.armspin.mov FANTASTIC bit of animation ! Despite the recent so-called "amazing" gains in the employment figures (a.k.a. statistical tampering), it sure looks like a lot of talented people still have way too much time on their hands... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 16:05:50 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA24676; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:03:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:03:59 -0800 Message-ID: <4026CE89.7060709@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 19:04:25 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Chondrite Meteorites Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KjPJm.0.W16.kvi901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52989 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More spherical possibilities, chondrules: http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Mar00/flashHeating.html Gee, they actually work in Hawaii? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 16:17:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA00595; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:15:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:15:49 -0800 Message-ID: <12632744.1075838253551.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:57:33 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Randy Souther Reply-To: Randy Souther To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fractal Logo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"aB_l22.0.D9.r4j901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52990 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's Gaston Julia's birthday. (The "julia set" fractal). Randy -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton Sent: Feb 3, 2004 10:37 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Fractal Logo What's with the Google logo today. Is it Benoit Mandelbrot Day or something? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 17:44:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA30100; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:43:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:43:00 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: eggs and Shards Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:41:18 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ZM1Gg3.0.GM7.ZMk901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52991 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eggs, you mean. Next item for sale on the Dennis Lee show: grow your own martian pets. Interesting how they seem to be deposited betwen layers in the sediments. as if they were a cyclic fallout between sedimentation events. Anyone note the tendency of the sedimentary stuff to flake off in what appears to be long shards ? Other than that it does appear sterile, not seeing any distinct patterns on the rock yet (keeping in mind all we can see is the wind-eroded exterior) ++ > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Sunday, 2004 February 08 09:55 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Spheres within spheres > > > Terry - > > >Or, is it the thin atmosphere which makes the Mars Moqui MARbles smaller. > > > >Either way, Mars is a gold mine. Those bloody moqui balls are > $4 each. But they *do* have healing powers. ;-) > > > I caught that! MMM's. Test market 'em on eBay, go through > national distributors when the Big News breaks. Smart, Blanton. > Remember me when you're hosting "The Apprentice" in a couple of > seasons after Trump moves on - I knew ya back when. ;-) > > - Rick > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 18:20:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA24899; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:18:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:18:23 -0800 Message-ID: <4026EE07.4000308@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:18:47 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: eggs and Shards References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EwQbb1.0.r46.ltk901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52992 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: explorecraft wrote: >Eggs, you mean. > M&M&M's, actually. However, there *could* be a copyright problem. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 19:30:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA05899; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:29:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:29:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad@aol.com> <402593B1.7030209@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:28:37 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: 680 Plana Meridiani, Mars, Sol - (image attached) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1135825162==_============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"2TJb-1.0.7S1.zvl901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52993 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135825162==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/015/1M129515692EFF0312P2939M2M1.JPG I wanted to send a postcard to the little fellow who lives in this cave, but I want to make sure I got the address right. I can't make out the number because it's written sideways. Is that a "680" or an "085"? Thanks for your help. Gnorts, - Rick --============_-1135825162==_============ Content-Id: Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="address.jpg" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="3842494D" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="address.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAARgAA/+4AJkFkb2JlAGTA AAAAAQMAFQQDBgoNAAAGIQAACSkAAA5zAAAV3f/bAIQABAMDAwMDBAMDBAYEAwQGBwUE BAUHCAYGBwYGCAoICQkJCQgKCgwMDAwMCgwMDQ0MDBERERERFBQUFBQUFBQUFAEEBQUI BwgPCgoPFA4ODhQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQU FBQUFBQUFBQU/8IAEQgAgQCRAwERAAIRAQMRAf/EAMIAAAEEAwEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUC AwQGAAEHCAEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAgICAgICAQIGAwAAAAAAAQIAAxEEEgUQ EyEUMoAxIEEiQiMzNBUGEQABAwIEAwYEBgIDAAAAAAABABECITFBURIiEGEDIHGBkTIT oUIjBDDwsdHhUmIzwZIUEgEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAEwEAAgIBAwQCAgMBAAAAAAAB ABEhMUFRYXGBkaGxEPDB0YDh8SD/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQAAAWS4FhHgeSinDobJIXJpPI5o jmxwWeWgyFQmMGDpHDBbgoYLJIoZIw+STyoKGhQstACOlBcWOBkKDQ8DwgRxZ5dNiRkb 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List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yep, Alien Eggs. Watch out for face suckers! I see a marketing craze as well...at least until the first chest exploders hatch. You know, I wonder what happens when you slam enough mass into the Martian soil to get a crater like the one we're sitting in. Would droplets of material coalesce in the frigid air forming the spheres we see? Presumably the 'cyclic fallout' Explorecraft refers to below; meteor strikes over a long period of time generating layers of spheres and sand. It strikes me looking at these photos, that I am looking at Earth at some early stage of development. Strange and exquisitely beautiful. K. BTW those spots on the one camera look like dust spots to me. One thing that's not at all obvious about the pictures is how much the weather changes. Either that, or it's a Communist Airplane. I'm sure of it. -----Original Message----- From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 8:41 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: eggs and Shards Eggs, you mean. Next item for sale on the Dennis Lee show: grow your own martian pets. Interesting how they seem to be deposited betwen layers in the sediments. as if they were a cyclic fallout between sedimentation events. Anyone note the tendency of the sedimentary stuff to flake off in what appears to be long shards ? Other than that it does appear sterile, not seeing any distinct patterns on the rock yet (keeping in mind all we can see is the wind-eroded exterior) ++ > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Sunday, 2004 February 08 09:55 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Spheres within spheres > > > Terry - > > >Or, is it the thin atmosphere which makes the Mars Moqui MARbles smaller. > > > >Either way, Mars is a gold mine. Those bloody moqui balls are > $4 each. But they *do* have healing powers. ;-) > > > I caught that! MMM's. Test market 'em on eBay, go through > national distributors when the Big News breaks. Smart, Blanton. > Remember me when you're hosting "The Apprentice" in a couple of > seasons after Trump moves on - I knew ya back when. ;-) > > - Rick > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 21:19:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA04457; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:15:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:15:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4026EE07.4000308@rtpatlanta.com> References: <4026EE07.4000308@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:15:33 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Mars spheres - Going Goeth(ite) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1135818751==_ma============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"pcsyE3.0.T51.AUn901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52995 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1135818751==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Terry - you might be pretty close after all with your MMMs. Hard shell on the outside, creamy nougat on the inside. Ever get any of those Mochi Balls or whatever they are cut open to find limestone or carbonate mineral of some kind inside? Remember that metallic sphere with the ridges on it from Cremo & Thompson's "Forbidden Archaeology"? They are found at a mine in Africa. Seems they are probably loose goethite spheres, and some were reported to be hollow and filled with a whitish substance. There's been some hard debunking on the story because one of the spheres, a photo of which is in the book, has a set of three grooves going around it which are attributed to artificial manufacture 2By ago. Also, some of the info in the book was from the Weekly World News, although the sphere does appear to be a real mineral sample from somewhere. I'm not impressed by the rings, they look like bathtub rings you might get if you sat imbedded in mud for a few years. Here's why spheres like these and stromatolites on a lake bottom might be related: Swiped off the web somewhere: --------------------------------------------- The Formation of Goethite as "Bog-Ore" by Chemical Precipitation. When rocks such as granodiorite weather, some of the iron is carried away by surface water as soluble iron (far right column of Table 1). This soluble iron can precipitate in fresh-water bogs, streams and shallow lagoons as goethite. Precipitation occurs when the iron reacts with "iron bacteria" from rotting vegetation. The resulting oxide first forms a scum on the surface of the water, before settling onto the bottom of e.g., the bog, forming layers of goethite, that may be "harvested" every twenty years or so. This "bog-ore" was used extensively in colonial, and post- revolutionary America -------------------------------------------- The windblown spheres in the soil in the first microphotographs are light colored and have a porous looking matte surface. Other spheres seen since are dark and some look shiny, like they've developed a shell of hematite, goethite, or maybe rich milk chocolate. It seems like some spheres start out white and then go goeth, others seem to be goethic almost from the start. They fit the context of a shallow lake with mats of bacteria. Bacterial action can form goethite, but it may not be the only way. Those structures could be abiotic mineral formations. But given the stromatolite appearance of the bedrock, I tend to doubt it. I bet Terry's right about why the hematite sig goes away on the soil bounce marks - tiny goethite or hematite balls sat exposed on a windblown surface of other material, and the bags mashed 'em down. - Rick --============_-1135818751==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mars spheres - Going Goeth(ite)
Terry - you might be pretty close after all with your MMMs. Hard shell on the outside, creamy nougat on the inside. Ever get any of those Mochi Balls or whatever they are cut open to find limestone or carbonate mineral of some kind inside?

Remember that metallic sphere with the ridges on it from Cremo & Thompson's "Forbidden Archaeology"? They are found at a mine in Africa. Seems they are probably loose goethite spheres, and some were reported to be hollow and filled with a whitish substance. There's been some hard debunking on the story because one of the spheres, a photo of which is in the book, has a set of three grooves going around it which are attributed to artificial manufacture 2By ago. Also, some of the info in the book was from the Weekly World News, although the sphere does appear to be a real mineral sample from somewhere. I'm not impressed by the rings, they look like bathtub rings you might get if you sat imbedded in mud for a few years. Here's why spheres like these and stromatolites on a lake bottom might be related:

Swiped off the web somewhere:
---------------------------------------------
<snip>The Formation of Goethite as "Bog-Ore" by Chemical Precipitation.

When rocks such as granodiorite weather, some of the iron is carried away by surface water as
soluble iron (far right column of Table 1). This soluble iron can precipitate in fresh-water bogs,
streams and shallow lagoons as goethite. Precipitation occurs when the iron reacts with "iron
bacteria" from rotting vegetation. The resulting oxide first forms a scum on the surface of the
water, before settling onto the bottom of e.g., the bog, forming layers of goethite, that may be
"harvested" every twenty years or so. This "bog-ore" was used extensively in colonial, and post-
revolutionary America </snip>
--------------------------------------------

The windblown spheres in the soil in the first microphotographs are light colored and have a porous looking matte surface. Other spheres seen since are dark and some look shiny, like they've developed a shell of hematite, goethite, or maybe rich milk chocolate. It seems like some spheres start out white and then go goeth, others seem to be goethic almost from the start. They fit the context of a shallow lake with mats of bacteria. Bacterial action can form goethite, but it may not be the only way. Those structures could be abiotic mineral formations. But given the stromatolite appearance of the bedrock, I tend to doubt it.

I bet Terry's right about why the hematite sig goes away on the soil bounce marks - tiny goethite or hematite balls sat exposed on a windblown surface of other material, and the bags mashed 'em down.

- Rick
--============_-1135818751==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 21:31:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA20027; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:30:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:30:37 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: 680 Plana Meridiani, Mars, Sol - (image attached) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:29:02 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3EF08.4C9DE960" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"TfefT.0.su4.zhn901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52996 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3EF08.4C9DE960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks like 085 to me, but you might email the props-master. Judging by the 3 shell trails running back into the living quarters, you might want to wait and get the right surname - there may be more than one family living there, and it does look lived in, seeing the porch arranged, swept and all. > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Monday, 2004 February 09 10:29 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: 680 Plana Meridiani, Mars, Sol - (image attached) > > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/015/1M129515692EFF0 > 312P2939M2M1.JPG > > I wanted to send a postcard to the little fellow who lives in > this cave, but I want to make sure I got the address right. I > can't make out the number because it's written sideways. Is that > a "680" or an "085"? 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uh6D4euppXst8rtsztyeleneEUUXxlwDJ6nmiiuqluYT2Ov1u7layaMv8jfeAAGazrazhtYU8qMR 7uTt70UV2byOZaLQl8XknSVbJ3DkEGuVt5Ha3Yl2JOTkmiis6nxFw2M1iZ3eOQlkPUGpbezhQooT 5RnAJJ7UUVijQ2dLle1sJTEdh9qKKK1WxNj/2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3EF08.4C9DE960-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 22:43:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA05541; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:39:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:39:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:39:00 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: 680 Plana Meridiani, Mars, Sol - (image attached) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"wj_cs3.0.UM1.Jio901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52997 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey, did you composite that color image yourself? I was trying that last night and all I got was psychedelic nonsense. It did highlight some of the features pretty well though. - Rick > Looks like 085 to me, > but you might email the props-master. > >Judging by the 3 shell trails running > back into the living quarters, you > might want to wait and get the right surname - > there may be more than one family living there, > and it does look lived in, seeing the porch arranged, swept and all. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 06:28:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA20324; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:26:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:26:53 -0800 Message-ID: <40279885.7050909@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:26:13 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: 680 Plana Meridiani, Mars, Sol - (image attached) References: <103.3ebe4586.2d56dbad@aol.com> <402593B1.7030209@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Yj8fN3.0.Qz4.jYv901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52998 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/015/1M129515692EFF0312P2939M2M1.JPG > >I wanted to send a postcard to the little fellow who lives in this cave, but I want to make sure I got the address right. I can't make out the number because it's written sideways. Is that a "680" or an "085"? Thanks for your help. > Hmmm, kinda looks like 666 to me. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 06:56:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA04420; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:54:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:54:35 -0800 Message-ID: <40279F09.1060501@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:54:01 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars spheres - Going Goeth(ite) References: <4026EE07.4000308@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uWjwX3.0.051.hyv901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/52999 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Terry - you might be pretty close after all with your MMMs. Hard shell > on the outside, creamy nougat on the inside. Ever get any of those > Mochi Balls or whatever they are cut open to find limestone or > carbonate mineral of some kind inside? Chef's Salty Chocolate Balls?? http://www.southparkspot.com/southwavs/chballsong.wav It's usually SiO2; but, if the origin is meteoric, it would depend on the material thrown up on impact. > Remember that metallic sphere with the ridges on it from Cremo & > Thompson's "Forbidden Archaeology"? They are found at a mine in > Africa. Seems they are probably loose goethite spheres, I always thought they were Horta eggs (Season 1, Episode 26 - The Devil in the Dark). > Swiped off the web somewhere: > --------------------------------------------- > The Formation of Goethite as "Bog-Ore" by Chemical Precipitation. In this research, it is amazing how many types of naturally formed spheres exist. Indeed we could be looking at both meteoric hematite and organically deposited hematite. There may also be fossils. I'm curious to see if these things are accumulating in the crater or are ubiquitous in this region. We need to hurry and get outta this hole . . . we can always come back. :-) The next rovers need to be nuke powered with a five speed gearbox. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 07:06:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA08854; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:02:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:02:13 -0800 Message-ID: <003901c3ef1d$847424c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Mo' Mars Madness Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:00:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EEDA.5DA0B400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"Pe7EC1.0.IA2.q3w901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53000 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EEDA.5DA0B400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the MOST PERPLEXING ANOMALIES OF MARS department... Can't get enough of this stuff... can anyone top this image? http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa030501e.htm ...almost looks like the worms are scurrying for cover... (but the scale = is way off for worms - this is pre-Rover) Well, OK... if you want the 'real' proof of life on Mars...=20 You be the judge. Can there be any further question? http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/life_on_mars/Life_Image.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EEDA.5DA0B400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From the MOST PERPLEXING ANOMALIES OF MARS department...
 
Can't get enough of this stuff... can anyone top this = image?
http://= paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa030501e.htm
 
...almost looks like the worms are scurrying for cover... (but the = scale is=20 way off for worms - this is pre-Rover)
 
 
 
Well, OK... if you want the 'real' proof of life on Mars...
 
You be the judge. Can there be any further question?
h= ttp://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/life_on_mars/Life_Image.htm
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EEDA.5DA0B400-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 10:54:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA20661; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:48:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:48:28 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:50:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Mo' Mars Madness From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003901c3ef1d$847424c0$8837fea9@cpq> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3159179401_362617" Resent-Message-ID: <"riZWl1.0.k25.xNz901"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53001 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3159179401_362617 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 2/9/04 10:00 AM, "Jones Beene" wrote: > From the MOST PERPLEXING ANOMALIES OF MARS department... > =20 > Can't get enough of this stuff... can anyone top this image? > http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa030501e.htm > =20 > ...almost looks like the worms are scurrying for cover... (but the scale = is > way off for worms - this is pre-Rover) > =20 These are =8Cglass tubes=B2 not worms. Old stuff, but very impressive and provocative. See Dr. Tom van Flandern=B9s site: www.metaresearch.org My favorite image are the LARGE, multi-kilometer, triangles that have all sides parallel to one another and are touching at one vertex. I cannot conceive of ANY explanation other than artificiality for those.. - Gene Mallove --B_3159179401_362617 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Mo' Mars Madness On 2/9/04 10:00 AM, &qu= ot;Jones Beene" <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

From the MOST PERPLEXING ANOMALIES OF MARS department...
 
Can't get enough of this stuff... can anyone top this image?
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa030501e.htm
...almost looks like the worms are scurrying for cover... (but the scale is= way off for worms - this is pre-Rover)
 

  These are ‘glass tubes” not worms. Old stuff, but v= ery impressive and provocative.  See Dr. Tom van Flandern’s site:=

 www.metaresearch.org  

My favorite image are the LARGE, multi-kilometer, triangles that have all s= ides parallel to one another and are touching at one vertex.  I cannot = conceive of ANY explanation other than artificiality for those..

 - Gene Mallove --B_3159179401_362617-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 16:35:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA22303; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:33:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:33:11 -0800 From: hamdix@iris.com.tr Message-ID: <002701c3ef6d$8adcb660$c864a8c0@win98> To: References: <003901c3ef1d$847424c0$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: Mo' Mars Madness Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:33:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"O8C6f1.0.FS5.5R2A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53002 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: vortex Sent: 09 February 2004 17:00 Subject: Mo' Mars Madness > From the MOST PERPLEXING ANOMALIES OF MARS department... > Can't get enough of this stuff... can anyone top this image? >http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa030501e.htm >...almost looks like the worms are scurrying for cover... (but the scale is way off for worms - this is pre-Rover) Yes, this picture is very interesting. it was discussed on this forum when it was first published. > Well, OK... if you want the 'real' proof of life on Mars... > You be the judge. Can there be any further question? >http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/life_on_mars/Life_Image.htm How we can expect life in Mars after this total deforestation !!! Poor guy on this photo is probably looking some remaining worms inside rocks for food. He is also responsible to break stones in odd shapes. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 19:03:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA00396; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:59:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:59:41 -0800 Message-ID: <4028493B.8010301@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 22:00:11 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mo' Mars Madness References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"by7aL.0.76.Ta4A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53003 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > See Dr. Tom van Flandern’s site: > > www.metaresearch.org > > My favorite image are the LARGE, multi-kilometer, triangles that have > all sides parallel to one another and are touching at one vertex. I > cannot conceive of ANY explanation other than artificiality for those.. > > - Gene Mallove If the triangles were mentioned here before I missed it. Were they in an older photo (earlier expedition)? They sound really interesting. If you have a direct link to the image(s) I'd really appreciate it if you would post it. Thanks in advance... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 19:19:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA12250; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:16:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:16:33 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 22:18:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Mo' Mars Madness From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4028493B.8010301@pobox.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA12210 Resent-Message-ID: <"g98XN2.0.E_2.Gq4A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53004 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 2/9/04 10:00 PM, "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > Eugene F. Mallove wrote: >> See Dr. Tom van Flandern¹s site: >> >> www.metaresearch.org >> >> My favorite image are the LARGE, multi-kilometer, triangles that have >> all sides parallel to one another and are touching at one vertex. I >> cannot conceive of ANY explanation other than artificiality for those.. >> >> - Gene Mallove > > If the triangles were mentioned here before I missed it. Were they in > an older photo (earlier expedition)? They sound really interesting. If > you have a direct link to the image(s) I'd really appreciate it if you > would post it. > > Thanks in advance... > Under: http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/asom/artifact_html/defaul t.htm Image #14 "Embedded Triangles" <-- Back Forward --> Embedded triangles at Cydonia: As many as five congruent, equi-spaced triangles can be traced on the original image. The Cydonia region alone contains dozens of triangles better than the one in Ukert crater on the Moon. Triangles whose sides end in sharp vertices are extremely rare in most of nature. -- Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 20:55:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA14842; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:53:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:53:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:53:28 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Spirit rover, rock abrasion tool Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"oxCoZ1.0.Xd3.GF6A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53005 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:17:59 -0800 From: Sandra To: 'William Beaty' Subject: Rover malfunction http://images.spaceref.com/news/2004/rover.armspin.mov From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 21:47:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA20122; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 21:42:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 21:42:34 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: Backshell impact crater Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:40:58 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"IXARK1.0.Mw4.9z6A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53006 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bet the NASA guys didn't consider that the backshell(s) possibly gouged out nice inspection windows on the surface, perhaps a nice hole worth examining for any final 'sedimentation'. Or maybe the were too round to achieve anything... > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Monday, 2004 February 09 13:39 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: 680 Plana Meridiani, Mars, Sol - (image attached) > > > Hey, did you composite that color image yourself? I was trying > that last night and all I got was psychedelic nonsense. It did > highlight some of the features pretty well though. > > - Rick > Just low-level tinkering with photo editor, nothing special. Note that summing filter pix creates blur, as the optics are never exactly the same, but will, as you note, highlight correlated features. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 08:01:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA02294; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:00:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:00:14 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: top-secret spectral data Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:58:37 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"3K6wM1.0.nZ.E0GA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53007 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anyone else find the spectral data that doesn't seem to be available on the Mars rover site at http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html ? I suppose there is some national security issue associated with posting spectral data, maybe they hold it back to keep from being publicly embarrassed or something... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 08:21:00 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA15165; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:18:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:18:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040210082047.053b9418@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:21:22 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Report Available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"KL-OZ1.0.qi3.THGA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New report available: Number of Scientists Known To Be Studying Cold Fusion, By Country and Setting http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/Reports/WorldwideCFResearch.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 08:45:49 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA00867; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:41:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:41:37 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: top-secret spectral data Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:40:07 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"PukTZ3.0.UD.1dGA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53009 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Still looking, found this, from http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/May00/wetMars.html ------------------------------------------------ Alteration products in two meteorites from Mars, Lafayette (left) and ALH 84001 (right). Lafayette has prominent occurrences of rusty-brown veins that are a mixture of clay minerals, iron oxide, and iron hydride. ALH 84001 is famous for its complicated globules of (brownish) carbonate minerals, in which the very controversial evidence for fossil life was found. The only very ancient Martian meteorite is ALH 84001, which formed more than 4 billion years ago. It is composed almost entirely of pyroxene, but is decorated with tiny globules of carbonate minerals. The meteorite has been at the center of a controversy concerning the evidence for fossil life in it, and the carbonate globules are at the hub of that argument. Several ideas for the origin of the globules have been proposed, and estimates for the temperature at which they formed range from about 0 oC to 800 oC. Now there's a disagreement! It is also an opportunity to explore carbonate formation experimentally, and that is what Leslie Baker and her colleagues did. ------------------------------------------------------ > -----Original Message----- > From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 10 22:59 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: top-secret spectral data > > > > Anyone else find the spectral data that doesn't > seem to be available on the Mars rover site > at http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html ? > > I suppose there is some national security issue > associated with posting spectral data, > maybe they hold it back to keep from being > publicly embarrassed or something... > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 08:59:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06849; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:49:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:49:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <006501c3eff5$9409c4c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Tom_van_Flandern=B9s_site?= Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:47:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01C3EFB2.857A2E60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"99QND1.0.yg1.ujGA01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53010 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C3EFB2.857A2E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gene Mallove has mentioned Dr. Tom van Flandern=B9s most bizarre = website: www.metaresearch.org It is provocative, that's for sure - and fascinating. But I wonder if he = has gone to far out on a limb (assuming that he wants us to take his = ideas on gravity seriously).=20 Keith Nagel observed in an earlier post, "how you interpret these = results depends on your education and fringiness," and van Flandern = seems to have both in excess. One of these days, I hope to write a = longer post on "fringiness" (as distinguished from crankiness) as it is = the one factor in science that is responsible for so much of that gray = area - on both the two extremities under the Bell-curve, i.e. both the = creative spark for major advancement and also the wasteful "crankiness" = of such contradictions as so-called "creation science." =20 The juxtaposition of science-fact and science-based-speculation is = absolutely intriguing to many curious and open-minded observers - the = lure of this is probably what has drawn many readers to vortex, I = suspect. But there is a fine-line, a shifting line, that belies whether = or not one has retained enough grasp on reality to be believed. I'm not = so sure about van Flandern. Halton Arp, for instance, seems to be on one = side of that line and van Flandern on the other. But everyone will have = their own balance-beam. Of course, humor, cynicism or attempted = fact-frivolity is a mollifying factor in all of this (the = sci-crank-yanker, one could say) but that does not seem to be where he = is going with this. IOW by the somewhat vague standards that we witness daily on Vortex, it = can be intriguing to jump from the images of worm-holes to the = possibility of life having been there, even from pseudo-pyramids to = advanced life, but IMHO it is absolute crankiness when one opines, as = does van Flandern, that hominids once inhabited Mars and are responsible = for bringing advanced life to earth...well come to think of it von = Flandern says it was not really Mars but the planet that was there = before Mars (Mars being the moon of that planet that was destroyed 3 = million years ago) etc., etc. Excuse me, Tom, but "get a grip"...=20 Do others here balk at that leap of faith? In many aspects of emerging = science, one gets wholesale returns of conjecture out of a trifling = investment of fact, that is sure. But that can poison whatever you may = have to offer that is indeed relevant (even critical) to a major = advancement. The following example of erudition-gone-mad was posted on = the web to make this point:=20 "In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi = has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. Therefore ... in = the Old Oolitic Silurian Period the Lower Mississippi River was upward = of one million three hundred thousand miles long... seven hundred and = forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and = three-quarters long...=20 IOW when a writer has enough knowledge to impress you with a barrage of = stilted facts that may express a current truth using a specialized = vernacular - and particularly when some intriguing images from NASA are = offered on a website ... it is almost as if that gives a carte-blanche = to make the great leap to wherever degree of crankiness can be = imagined...=20 ...or am I overreacting a bit? Jones The Oracle has divulged that 99.9% of humanity prefers a bland kind of = status-quo and will stay in the Matrix, either unconsciously or = intentionally by metaphorically taking the appropriate "pill" (degree of = denial) if they are given the choice... However, there is still that = troublesome 0.1% that will balk and not accept this Eden we call the = Matrix even in the face of "incontrovertible" evidence (the = science-police). They can either wallow in their own crankiness (Zion) = or get out there and fight the machinery in place (the Mr. Smiths of the = world)...=20 ...but even with victory, they will only advance to the next level of = illusion... =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C3EFB2.857A2E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
It is provocative, that's for sure - and fascinating. But I wonder = if he=20 has gone to far out on a limb (assuming that he wants us to take his = ideas on=20 gravity seriously).
 
Keith Nagel observed in an earlier post, "how you interpret these = results=20 depends on your education and fringiness," = and van Flandern seems=20 to have both in excess. One of these days, I hope to write a longer post = on=20 "fringiness" (as distinguished from crankiness) as it is the one factor = in=20 science that is responsible for so much of that gray area - on both = the two=20 extremities under the Bell-curve, i.e. both the creative spark for major = advancement and also the wasteful "crankiness" of such contradictions as = so-called "creation science." 
 
The juxtaposition of science-fact and science-based-speculation is=20 absolutely intriguing to many curious and open-minded observers - the = lure of=20 this is probably what has drawn many readers to vortex, I suspect. But = there is=20 a fine-line, a shifting line, that belies whether or not one has = retained=20 enough grasp on reality to be believed. I'm not so sure about van = Flandern.=20 Halton Arp, for instance, seems to be on one side of that line and van = Flandern=20 on the other. But everyone will have their own balance-beam. Of course, = humor,=20 cynicism or attempted fact-frivolity is a mollifying factor in all of = this (the=20 sci-crank-yanker, one could say) but that does not seem to be where he = is going=20 with this.
 
IOW by the somewhat vague standards that we witness daily on = Vortex, it can=20 be intriguing to jump from the images of worm-holes to the possibility = of life=20 having been there, even from pseudo-pyramids to advanced life, but IMHO = it is=20 absolute crankiness when one opines, as does van Flandern, that hominids = once=20 inhabited Mars and are responsible for bringing advanced life to=20 earth...well come to think of it von Flandern says it was not really = Mars but=20 the planet that was there before Mars (Mars being the moon of that = planet that=20 was destroyed 3 million years ago) etc., etc. Excuse me, Tom, but "get a = grip"...
 
Do others here balk at that leap of faith? In many aspects of = emerging=20 science, one gets wholesale returns of conjecture out of a trifling = investment=20 of fact, that is sure. But that can poison whatever you may have to = offer that=20 is indeed relevant (even critical) to a major advancement. The=20 following example of erudition-gone-mad was posted on the web to = make this=20 point:
 
"In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower = Mississippi=20 has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. Therefore ... in = the Old=20 Oolitic Silurian Period the Lower Mississippi River was upward of one = million=20 three hundred thousand miles long... seven hundred and forty-two years = from now=20 the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long... =
 
IOW when a writer has enough knowledge to impress you with a = barrage of=20 stilted facts that may express a current truth using a specialized = vernacular -=20 and particularly when some intriguing images from NASA are offered on a=20 website ... it is almost as if that gives a carte-blanche to make = the great=20 leap to wherever degree of crankiness can be imagined...
 
...or am I overreacting a bit?
 
Jones
 
The Oracle has divulged that 99.9% of humanity prefers a bland = kind of=20 status-quo and will stay in the Matrix, either unconsciously or = intentionally by=20 metaphorically taking the appropriate "pill" (degree of denial) if they = are=20 given the choice... However, there is still that troublesome 0.1% that = will balk=20 and not accept this Eden we call the Matrix even in the face of=20 "incontrovertible" evidence (the science-police). They can either wallow = in=20 their own crankiness (Zion) or get out there and fight the machinery in = place=20 (the Mr. Smiths of the world)...
 
...but even with victory, they will only advance to the next level = of=20 illusion...
 
------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C3EFB2.857A2E60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 10:43:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA31764; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:37:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:37:27 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:41:50 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Report Available Resent-Message-ID: <"VTkJ62.0.Gm7.cJIA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53011 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:21 AM 2/10/4, Steve Krivit wrote: >New report available: >Number of Scientists Known To Be Studying Cold Fusion, By Country and Setting >http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/Reports/WorldwideCFResearch.htm > The nubers look extremely low. I think a scan of Dieter Britz' publications would confirm this. The report is lacking in source or reference information. What is the definition of "Scientist" used for the report? One notable missing count is Pons ... unless he is retired or has moved from France. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 11:11:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA21168; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:06:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:06:43 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040210110710.053e2848@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:09:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Report Available In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eCmJN.0.ZA5.1lIA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53012 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace: Thanks for your excellent comments and questions. I have updated the page. Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 13:33:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA03407; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:29:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:29:13 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040210162332.01cb4cf0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:29:01 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Report Available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Buo4a2.0.yq.dqKA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53013 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Krivit writes: > New report available: > Number of Scientists Known To Be Studying Cold Fusion, By Country and Setting This looks like a reasonable estimate to me. There may be a few dozen others, but they seldom communicate or publish, so they might as well not exist. Two Japanese researchers have recently retired: A. Takahashi and T. Ohmori. If this field does not attract young people soon, I fear it will die altogether. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 13:35:13 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA05802; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:33:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:33:03 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:37:26 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Sprit finding sedimentary rock too? Resent-Message-ID: <"-3tO_.0.XQ1.FuKA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53014 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: Spirit seems to be picking up images of rock similar to the porous sandstone-like rock Opportunity has photographed. A number of things have shown up with apparent bilateral symmetry too, but the images are not close up enough to tell. There are a lot of long thin quasi-tubular rocks too, but no closeups sufficient to tell for sure. A curiosity is that the little sand dunes being photographed by Spirit on Sol 37 are said to be deposited by the wind. However, there are some unusual looking "rocks" on top of one or more dunes in the Spirit Panoramic images for Sol 37, especially row 9: cols 3 and 4, row 10: cols 1-3, row 6: cols 3 and 4. If there are rocks on top then either they are the tips of rocks on which the sand has blown (but then the sand should have formed differently), fell from the sky (but leftt no creater), they were blown there by the wind (surprisingly light, and why is the dune not perturbed by such a strong wind) or else they formed on top of the due recently (how did THAT happen?) Then of course there is the "alternative" explanation that they crawled there! 8^) I guess I should have learned by now attempting humor only inhibits good communication. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 14:20:09 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA09590; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:17:43 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040210163507.01cb90b8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:17:35 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"16YUE.0.nL2.7YLA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53015 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: ". . . IMHO it is absolute crankiness when one opines, as does van Flandern, that hominids once inhabited Mars and are responsible for bringing advanced life to earth..." I find this particular hypothesis intensely annoying. It does not really explain anything; it merely moves the problem from one planet to another. If intelligent life did not naturally evolve here on earth, and it came from Mars or a planet orbiting some other star, how did it evolve on Mars or that other planet? Somewhere, sometime, it had to evolve. There is no particular reason to think it could evolve on Mars but not on earth. The other thing that annoys me is a hypothesis that cannot be falsified. A classic example arose soon after Darwin first published. A minister (I think it was) proposed that God created the earth 6,000 years ago with fossils already in place to give the appearance of extinct species and evolution. British society dismissed this argument because it is not falsifiable. By definition, no test could reveal the difference between this hypothetical 6,000 year-old-world that looks much more ancient, and world that really is more ancient. Victorian English intellectuals were well versed in classical logic, and they recognized a false argument when they saw it. Many people nowadays are not familiar with logic -- including a surprising number of scientists -- so they waste a lot of time debating propositions that are wrong by definition, or that cannot be classified as right or wrong. People also often fail to recognize logical fallacies that were well known to ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, such as the ones listed here: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ Note that these errors are independent of content. The "unfalsifiable" argument is wrong because of what claims. A logical fallacy is wrong because of the way the argument itself is posed, apart from any content. For example, this argument is invalid (or weak, in any case): "Evolution must be true because the vast majority of biologists believe it." That, I hope everyone recognizes, is "an appeal to popularity" (Ad Populum). It is *not* "an appeal to authority" (Ad Verecundiam) because biologists really are authorities. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html Note that the "life originating elsewhere" is logically correct and weakly falseifiable, or at least provable in principle. We might find the fossilized remains of a 100-million-year-old crashed spaceship, or something like the giant black monolith from the movie "2001" The hypothesis is weakly falsifiable because if we keep looking for thousands of years, and we establish a detailed record of primate evolution with no sign of external inputs, that pretty much rules out the hypothesis. "In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. Therefore ..." Note that is from Mark Twain, "Life on the Mississippi." The last line is famous: "There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 17:34:18 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA00807; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:31:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:31:45 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:28:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern=?EUC-KR?B?qfY=?=s site From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <006501c3eff5$9409c4c0$8837fea9@cpq> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3159282490_688374" Resent-Message-ID: <"bXBLt1.0.ZC.1OOA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53016 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3159282490_688374 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 2/10/04 11:47 AM, "Jones Beene" wrote: > ...or am I overreacting a bit? > =20 > Jones Oh, please =8B spare me the philosophizing and hot air against Tom van Flandern. Just tell me how YOU think those triangles got there! I=B9m curious= . - Gene Mallove --B_3159282490_688374 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Tom van Flandern¹s site On 2/10/04 11:47 AM, &q= uot;Jones Beene" <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

...or am I overreacting a bit?
 
Jones

Oh, please — spare me the philosophizing and hot air against Tom van = Flandern. Just tell me how YOU think those triangles got there! I’m cu= rious.

 - Gene Mallove --B_3159282490_688374-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 18:05:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA31336; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:03:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:03:52 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040210182021.01cb4be0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:21:05 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New Scientist article on Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"m0X4o2.0.9f7.7sOA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53017 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994658 This covers some the topic that have been discussed here. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 19:13:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA18025; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:11:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:11:58 -0800 Message-ID: <010f01c3f04c$a21260c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:10:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA17947 Resent-Message-ID: <"k1Vs93.0.WP4.zrPA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53018 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene Mallove writes: > Oh, please spare me the philosophizing and hot air against Tom van Flandern. Just tell me how YOU think those triangles got there! I¹m curious. OK... (but let me say that I'm not against a lot of the stuff he has to say, but just that he isn't helping his own cause!)... and even on short notice, let me throw out one very probative thought... If the triangles (or glass tubes) were indeed to be a product of sentient life... and the only evidence for that proposition is admittedly that they don't seem 'natural' compared with the natural things that we are accustomed to see here on Earth, then that... even as far out as some experts would consider that proposition to be, would be FAR more tenable than that the triangles are the manufactured product of *hominid life* that somehow was forced to leave Mars and then colonize Earth three million years ago! See... as I understand evolution, to have hominid life, you have to go through all these small changes in phenotypes, all the way from very simple single cells to reptiles, mammals, apes; all the way to us over billions of years... and there is so much variability inherent in that DNA alteration process that the likelihood of it having occurred in two different locations independently but *precisely linked* is well.... astronomical!... so to propose that hominids came here from Mars, almost identical to the form that they would have evolved-to anyway, and it just so happened that when they arrived here, there were already very similar to the local ape population (chimps have 98% of the same genes that we do)... well... Oh! also, these local chimps would otherwise have been poised to evolve into the very form that the Martians already had when they arrived early, so to speak... 3 million years earlier, due to the collapse of a larger planet (of which there is also no real evidence) ... well, the chances of all that happening is beyond all the comprehension of my humble mentality... but let me invite you to enlighten me otherwise. Many of us could live with von Flandern saying that the 'triangles' in question could have possibly come from evolved life, even sentient life... but I have to totally disagree (in the strongest possible terms) that such sentient life could have taken the exact form of hominids that left Mars... just as their planet was going to be blown apart but left no trace of the machine that brought them here and somehow *coincidentally* shared 97% of the genes of a similar lifeform that was already here due to 4 billion years of evolutionary pressure... Do you see where I'm going with this? Jones BTW as to the precise answer as to where the triangles came from, it would be that "we don't have enough information now to make any kind of intelligent answer" but that "sentient life has not been ruled out..." so there you have it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 20:01:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA19549; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:58:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:58:01 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:59:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "vortex l eskimo.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <010f01c3f04c$a21260c0$8837fea9@cpq> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA19338 Resent-Message-ID: <"o24Pk3.0.Hn4.8XQA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53019 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/10/04 10:10 PM, "Jones Beene" wrote: > Gene Mallove writes: > >> Oh, please spare me the philosophizing and hot air against Tom van > Flandern. Just tell me how YOU think those triangles got there! I¹m curious. > > OK... (but let me say that I'm not against a lot of the stuff he has to say, Good. He is a thoughtful person. > but just that he isn't helping his own cause!)... and even on short notice, > let me throw out one very probative thought... If the triangles (or glass > tubes) were indeed to be a product of sentient life... and the only evidence > for that proposition is admittedly that they don't seem 'natural' compared > with the natural things that we are accustomed to see here on Earth, then > that... even as far out as some experts would consider that proposition to be, > would be FAR more tenable than that the triangles are the manufactured product > of *hominid life* that somehow was forced to leave Mars and then colonize > Earth three million years ago! You are really, really distorting his basic message that the items he catalogs are artificial and amenable to scientific analysis, as he and a handful of other colleagues have done. His opinion that the origin of these objects might be of hominid construction is very, very ancillary to his main propositions. (The latter stems from his analysis of the original, much disparaged "Face" -- and now the several other "faces" seen on Mars.) Again, establishing and cataloging objects that are highly suspect for being artificial is his main are of investigation. He, of course, knows that the precise etiology of artificial objects on Mars would be a very open question. Because of his exploded planet hypothesis (Mars being its former moon) -- which has lots of scientific rationale behind it, he thinks that an earlier hominid civilization on Mars must be considered. > > See... as I understand evolution, to have hominid life, you have to go through > all these small changes in phenotypes, all the way from very simple single > cells to reptiles, mammals, apes; all the way to us over billions of years... > and there is so much variability inherent in that DNA alteration process that > the likelihood of it having occurred in two different locations independently > but *precisely linked* is well.... astronomical!...\\\ This is standard mainstream PR about how evolution occurs. It is not even tenable by some of the mainstreamers (e.g. Lynn Margulis) who are beginning to have very serious doubts about the role of "natural selection." This is a much larger discussion that I do not want to enter at this point, but your glib analysis is full of holes. > so to propose that > hominids came here from Mars, almost identical to the form that they would > have evolved-to anyway, and it just so happened that when they arrived here, > there were already very similar to the local ape population (chimps have 98% > of the same genes that we do)... well... Oh! also, these local chimps would > otherwise have been poised to evolve into the very form that the Martians > already had when they arrived early, so to speak... 3 million years earlier, > due to the collapse of a larger planet (of which there is also no real evide! > nce) ... well, the chances of all that happening is beyond all the > comprehension of my humble mentality... but let me invite you to enlighten me > otherwise. I am not going to "enlighten you" since this takes us far afield from the main question of artificiality of the Mars topography. A critique of natural selection is beyond the scope of this very limited forum. > > Many of us could live with von Flandern saying that the 'triangles' in > question could have possibly come from evolved life, even sentient life... THAT is his basic contention. Forget other surrounding matters of "who" made them. > but > I have to totally disagree (in the strongest possible terms) that such > sentient life could have taken the exact form of hominids that left Mars... > just as their planet was going to be blown apart but left no trace of the > machine that brought them here and somehow *coincidentally* shared 97% of the > genes of a similar lifeform that was already here due to 4 billion years of > evolutionary pressure... > > Do you see where I'm going with this? Yes, I see where you are going and you totally misrepresent the basic intent of the van Flandern work, which is to evaluate the EPH and the artificiality criteria of Martian surface features. You, and contemporary biologists THINK you know quite a bit about the constituents of life and the mechanisms of its evolution. You and they are out to lunch on this matter, as far as I am concerned -- about as far removed from reality as the Big Bang/GR physicists who disparage LENR as a hobby. > > Jones > > BTW as to the precise answer as to where the triangles came from, it would be > that "we don't have enough information now to make any kind of intelligent > answer" but that "sentient life has not been ruled out..." so there you have > it. Perhaps you could have made some analysis of how likely it would be, and from what cause, that extended triangular objects of this kind would have parallel sides and a coincident vertex. Could there be some unknown large scale "crystallization" at work? I doubt it. -- Gene Mallove > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 20:27:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA05065; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:24:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:24:49 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:29:08 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Live lichen on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"l7F3T.0.5F1.HwQA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53020 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Sol 17 microscopic images from Opportunity show a patch before and after a depression is made, forcing various the sandstone-like objects down into the soil. However, if you look carefully at the edge of the holes where objects have been pressed into and under the surface, you will see fibrous stalks, some with little white heads on them, simlar to some molds and lichens. The soil appears to be fibrous, not sandy. This kind of texture should come from a living fungus or plant, not a dead one. The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 21:36:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA25351; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:34:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:34:17 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:38:42 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Live lichen on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"XxFkr2.0.3C6.PxRA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53021 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps Mars has a tiny lichen similar in structure to bouquet fog lichen (Niebla combeoides)? It lives on fog instead of water in the soil. Maybe some variety can live with almost no air or water. A picture of Niebla combeoides is at: The version on Mars are without flower-like heads, but rether have bead-like heads like some of the stalks in the above URL. If it is lichen the stalks are really packed together tightly on Mars. The Sol 17 microscopic images from Opportunity show a patch before and after a depression is made, forcing various of the sandstone-like objects down into the "soil". However, if you look carefully at the edge of the holes where objects have been pressed into and under the surface, you will see fibrous stalks, some with little white heads on them, similar to some molds and lichens. The soil appears to be fibrous, not sandy. This kind of texture should come from a living fungus or plant, not a dead one. The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 21:44:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA30649; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:42:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:42:51 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:47:15 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Live lichen on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"bMpaT2.0.rU7.Q3SA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53023 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some lichen have spherical fruiting bodies. Perhaps the little spheres in the sandstone were nucleated by hard shell fruiting bodies from lichen which grew eons ago. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 21:45:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA30107; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:41:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:41:58 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Tom van Flandern's site Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:06:44 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"GhVDn3.0.HM7.b2SA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53022 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Gene & Jones. You write: >...You, and contemporary biologists THINK you know quite a bit about the >constituents of life and the mechanisms of its evolution. You and they are >out to lunch on this matter, as far as I am concerned -- about as far >removed from reality as the Big Bang/GR physicists who disparage LENR as a >hobby. etc etc. Is it fair to say Gene, that if huge triangles were burnt into the martian soil by some ancient race, that we would expect to see abundant micro-organic life, even if the larger creatures were killed off in some fashion? It seems like an answer to the triangles is a lot closer at hand. If we can't find alien bacteria, I don't hold much hope for there having been anything larger. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 21:53:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA04511; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:51:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:51:52 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:50:21 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"wN9ag2.0.N61.uBSA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53024 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, Not really seeing it - can you pick out a relative xy coordinate on a specific foto, or snip an 8k clipout like Rick did ? > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 February 11 12:47 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Live lichen on Mars? > > > Some lichen have spherical fruiting bodies. Perhaps the little spheres in > the sandstone were nucleated by hard shell fruiting bodies from lichen > which grew eons ago. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 22:28:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA27427; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:25:20 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:50:11 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"L2iSn3.0.Vi6.FhSA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53025 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Presumably he means stuff like this big "fibre" at X = 12.5" Y=11". It looks frighteningly like a fossil. I've seen complex carbonates crystallize in mats, I wouldn't be surprised if the fibres are inorganic. It's possible evidence of water though, a good sign. K. -----Original Message----- From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:50 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Hi Horace, Not really seeing it - can you pick out a relative xy coordinate on a specific foto, or snip an 8k clipout like Rick did ? > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 February 11 12:47 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Live lichen on Mars? > > > Some lichen have spherical fruiting bodies. Perhaps the little spheres in > the sandstone were nucleated by hard shell fruiting bodies from lichen > which grew eons ago. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 00:35:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA06577; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:32:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:32:41 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Martian Seasons Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:31:02 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"X_agP.0.ic1.fYUA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53026 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mars Rover Opportunity February 10 Another few points that aren't being publicly discussed, (along with undisclosed spectrometer data) :... I put the comments and the annotated foto at: http://www.explorecraft.com/martian_seasons.htm enjoy From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 00:41:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA10056; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:38:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:38:50 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:43:15 -0900 To: From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"-azGp3.0.3T2.PeUA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53027 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know where (from waht software) you guys are getting your coordinates from or to which URL the coordinates given below apply. Once you see and understand what the borders of holes into the cracked surface are made of fibers, you realized ALL the dark mat in the 8 Sol 17 microscopic images from Opportunity are composed of little fiber-like stems, most with little white heads. They are EVERYWHERE. However, they are at the limits of visiility, but as you browse the images you can see many fairly examples. They are like very tiny matches with very small heads, but with the match usually bent. For days I have been looking at the little white dots in the "sand" thinking they were white grains amoung the black or dark red sand grains. Once you realize the tiny white things might all be organic and attached to something you can see the fibrous nature of what's under them. I think the stuff is frozen. You can see where the surfaced cracked in one particular place in the photos, and how the fractured looking edges around the holes in which the big white rocks were buried contain tiny broken fibers. There is one large rock in the center of the mushed down area where this is especially true. The surface the rocks were pushed through was cracked, not mushed. It appears to me that the stuff under that surface is not nearly as structurally strong as the surface. That's why the rocks bury so completely, yet don't get completely covered up with "sand". You can see them when you look straight dwon at them through their holes. That fits in well with the model that the surface is supported on little stems. Proof of this concept likely requires a much higher resolution micrograph. However, the sulfur content of the stuff I think also jives with the possibility that the stuff is alive. Keep in mind that the stems are at the limits of resolution of the largest pixel count photos. You need to find an area that is in sharp focus to see the things. At 1:50 AM 2/11/4, Keith Nagel wrote: >Presumably he means stuff like this big "fibre" >at X = 12.5" Y=11". It looks frighteningly like a >fossil. > >I've seen complex carbonates crystallize in mats, >I wouldn't be surprised if the fibres are inorganic. >It's possible evidence of water though, a good sign. > >K. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:50 AM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? > > > >Hi Horace, > >Not really seeing it - > can you pick out a relative xy coordinate > on a specific foto, or snip an 8k clipout > like Rick did ? > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] >> Sent: Wednesday, 2004 February 11 12:47 >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: Live lichen on Mars? >> >> >> Some lichen have spherical fruiting bodies. Perhaps the little spheres in >> the sandstone were nucleated by hard shell fruiting bodies from lichen >> which grew eons ago. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner >> >> >> >> Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 01:16:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA01425; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:16:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:16:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:15:49 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? (jpeg attached) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1135631538==_============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"UPaH72.0.7M.JBVA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53028 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135631538==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Horace - Are these the threads you mean? Pretty close to the pixels. The jpeg image= might be selectively emphasizing what are otherwise random arrangements,= although I admit that one long arc looks rather real. 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vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53029 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135631198==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Attached is a small jpg edited from: It is the rock in the middle of the mushed down area. I could no actually view the part I snipped becuase the computer on which I snipped it has a very bad monitor. Hopefully this will allow you to identify a good place to start looking on the original photo. --============_-1135631198==_============ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="lichen.jpg" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="lichen.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8U HRofHh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgN DRgyIRwhMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIy MjIyMjL/wAARCABjAGEDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHAAAAgIDAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABQYABAED BwII/8QANxAAAgEDAwIDBAgFBQAAAAAAAQIDAAQRBSExEkEGE1EUYXGRFSIyQoGhsfAH UpLB0RYjU1Th/8QAFAEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP/EABQRAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAD/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/ADS6DcZ81clM7kGrl1pTSWKLGT1Djehth4gnaFogVPvHYVYt 9TlKFcdePiKCn9AtMwFwThT9kn+9EpNFhtrFWhI6uCKsQSs8fW0XzzijNg1tMD1KC43w DwaBSmkkt41Ykhs8kY+VMWmi8k0zzVkbpb1O9EtQ0i11GMqh6SDxzQuIzae/s8bP0jgA UAbVmhgXruVBduxrzYoJrLMMPSD68VV8RWdxe30UnRsGyVJyPnTLYGC2sow+AcZIAHNA k6zIbQY+yer4UNl1fT2ijJwZRyc8Ud8ViG4DeSSTvk4rmGoB7MliTgHO9A/zXMWp26L5 uSO3G1DrFJpr7yEAMY242x+NJmm69i6H1zj053pvg1bYNGo6iN80DN9FRei/KpS79KTe rf1GpQE7awljjULsSNwNqY9LiCMqyqccHt881m0tJJZFyhK59M0Ykt1LAdAyp2zQWLm3 UQAQLlT6fvj416sNLwOogjO/1RtVy2ti1vkHGB2HNE7S3zGsYU/HJoKXsxRCYieo844P yrQmnkqxkOCec9qYXtGUdXWCB26cfpWmaBww935UC7JpiYPUMjtil/VIGTCxqRjg4NPR tnc9W+fQGh1/ZHBLpkYz1Z5/f7NBze8hcxFSrZ99JGu2p9nkJGNq6dqUQXPQDgg5wKQv FDJBp0rDnG5NByZXMFwWX7pPemrTNZMsYUgY4G24/GlEnJJPJrdbXT2zkqdjyKDoXmn+ YVKTvpl/5/yqUH0v4a1yBI2hdA7b42FY1C4eaY9JAGNtu/4UE0Fo1mZmQE5GaN3sfXES gYY7Z70BDRnumKK3V5ZG/OKcbeBAg5IwNjxSLpGrLBB0SdIxwODTppV2l1agoc4oLrL1 DAOPwrIxtxkVmpQV5pfL2UAnkj0oLqd4PLIK/n/j+9F7plTL5b0OKUdZvoVRmzjG29Av 6lIgVi+cDO9cl8c6oscPkJjLn0ps8TeI4LaNyHVSPSuO6vqT6neGViekbAE0FDk1llKn B5rKKzuFUZYnat97E0UwDHcigrVKlSg+l9LaON08zKljg9hR69ZAA0XSFA57/rS1GT5n mMQqZ2GMf2qxe6nm1IViwIxuaANq2seXOYIQDvTR4W1y4hjVZOtV9Se1I62zXMplT7Y5 xuKMtrtrpdj/ALoAkC742xQdgt9Xtp4g3WuecCql54jtoBhCrN8a4Pe+PpVRjbh99uKq t4kv1t/aXbqVh9n0oOpa147t7eEqXbqPG/Fcx1fxZc3LyuT9XB+VLGoatLqE5eLdwPsk 0uXNxqJnKSKwB7AbUGjU9Rmv7qRndiudgTVGtywSTXQhAw7twa6Jof8ACqXUVjkluGwe VUUHOYJjBKJAMkVb9qikl8y4QluQK7hbfwh0uzi8xlMje8Zpbvv4cxrf+YVIjU8FTx8q Dmnt0H/X/OpXV/8ARtr/AMI+RqUDPNLbTWp6CATtgUFjtZZUeQk9A7GrBEdqrsCegDOK 82zHUFdYmCL3A3xQUptQFtbsFbcDGc80DgsX8QXbGafoiHI7CiV/Zkh4U+797p5rVpej zzsUjcoQNyNv3+FB4uNOt7R/ZVwwHDZ2IrFx4cmks/qvmLsBRSbw/Kk0aliW236u9Xbm 4uNPeODJCHbJOQD6b0CJpmgPFqzSS5RFGwbfNXrlYZriRREMgbkcH4U+xaIt5AbjKoCP dv7qV761igvRHgYJxkCgr+F/CUE1615dDYHKjjFdL0uVbVzFCgYZAG//AJ/mgUVnMmli W3l7djz8DVfSL679pKucEcg7fOgfrq7kiQK6jjJ52/KqEhS4A2PUB1EY4/GvSXHnSJHK VYnb6p4rdqSR2ECvGcu3HSeKCh0p6J8jUqh7ReVKBWmhF3blFl4G4PrVaFJrSIrASSx3 PY1YtrNorroJb6x7CmC90YQWayx568Z4xk0C1bxTRy+dOpIbnAoqkjBQ9qpIBzzxW2zm E8JiuR09OxX1rZb39taSGFYl6aCrHeu96rTsMKc8kfrRKSaxu7k9ZBIGScfpQXVplkDS RoM/OqdjfRG2OAc8HAyB8KAvdaz5GbSCQlT654oVqFm8hVi5fq9N8Vptrd59Q+9gnY80 W1lPZIo3Vskbj0oL+ltJZ2ggkfKkYANANSvpbe7xGGyO4OM/jW2DULi4uEZwyoQM5q/c GG5IAj6jjfbf4mgseGdVk88PM5kGchTvinHU72zubYyFwrgcAc0gWNymmXbsXyDsMGtF /cXV5fq0MrCMncDbNAf9uHqlSqnsB/nX+g1KCgWInQDbIB2ojPd3DqEaViuODUqUGPLU wKxG7cmhsh6ZcADGB2qVKDdNEjaa+V7etBtLjQTnCL8qlSgYpYI4ghjXpJbGQceteryJ JNPdnXqIxgnf0qVKCroqK9o5ZQcE4z2rfOPKtcJtlmBPf51KlAm+YzzuWYnBHNOOjovl dWBkVKlAb6R7/nUqVKD/2Q== --============_-1135631198==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regards, Horace Heffner --============_-1135631198==_============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 01:50:40 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA23469; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:49:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:49:56 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:54:22 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: lichen hole photo Resent-Message-ID: <"rPS9H3.0.Yk5.3hVA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53031 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a hopefully much more in focus photo: It is the 8th out of 8 of the Sol 17 microscopic images. I sent two emails with small attachments but they seem to be hung up somewhere. They should show up sooner or later. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 01:51:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA21868; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:47:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:47:36 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1135629380==_============" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:51:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re:lichen hole photo Resent-Message-ID: <"4O1ar3.0.eL5.teVA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53030 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135629380==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here is a hopefully much more in focus photo: It is the 8th out of 8 of the Sol 17 microscopic images. --============_-1135629380==_============ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="lich3.jpg" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="lich3.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8U HRofHh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgN DRgyIRwhMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIy MjIyMjL/wAARCABsAGYDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHAAAAgIDAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABQYDBAAC BwEI/8QANhAAAQMDAgUCAwYHAAMAAAAAAQIDBAAFERIhBhMxQVEiYRRxgSMykaHB8BUk QrHR4fEHUmL/xAAUAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA/8QAFBEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AP/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8AIFaGb0ZNtuLshxSyA8Ggogq65ztVqHcpdructi4WxU9pTRSn QdZGf6sHYfMUPagNPuolR3dKSgJU20MgL6jI6+d6Nzbk8zEHwyVlKwG1pCwnKcf+3XrQ D4JhPoZnFxKZXOISyAFaTjYk9hgior/a76zHdXGKFMuuc50JcKkEb75H9q8jWyKxIckT ZCYSHGytZKjvscZ81vZrsiVbW0xVS3S0CV6spbO/p2/A0Aqw2eO9NeuEhbpcKtPKbTse 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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:11:37 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"TJ3Cf3.0.4y.t0WA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53032 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Makes the eyeballs hurt to look at this stuff, but conceivable. There are an awful lot of these dark wiggly tracks, and they certainly don't look like ordinary flake cracks. It is instructive that the first word from SPIRIT was that the soil <'magic carpet'> seemed cohesive, and that where Opportunity pushed, the soil did not behave like dry sand or dust but rather a like crust, which fits the mat scenario. A crust implies either some surface adhesive (fibrous?) or, inversely, that the subsurface is indeed lightly packed (as someone mentioned - sublimated ice mud, much the same as seen in the North Dakota badlands after spring thaw - a dry flaky crust ( ~5mm) overlaying a crumbly layer (10-30 mm) of spherical clay crumbs, all caked over a wet clay) Maybe the microspheres are fruit from the lichen, being the earlier, wet-era result of match-head lichen having a nice environment to produce. But that would mean the 'fruit' is either a very strongly cemented mineral, or that all the spheres we see are mineralied fossils which seems improbable, given fossilization would require more water and some sort of replacement mechanism. Interesting. at the very least. > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 February 11 16:16 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? (jpeg attached) > > > Horace - > > Are these the threads you mean? Pretty close to the pixels. The > jpeg image might be selectively emphasizing what are otherwise > random arrangements, although I admit that one long arc looks > rather real. Maybe the little spheres are magnetic - lots of > fancy iron compounds lurking about here. > > - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 02:45:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA25484; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:43:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:43:26 -0800 Message-ID: <005201c3f08b$dea98d80$6501a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <010f01c3f04c$a21260c0$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:42:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"GzTDa3.0.2E6.DTWA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53033 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have an issue with one article on the Flandern site. It involves the effects of space/time perceptions during a hypothetical trip to Alpha-Centauri at a speed very close to that of Light. A spaceship leaving Earth in 2000 and arriving at Alpha-Centauri in 2004 after traveling at a very high rate of speed, might see only 1 month of elapsed time. When he arrives at Alpha-Centauri and looks back at Earth, he would be seeing Earth in the year 2000, at a time only one month after he left Earth, since Earth is 4 light-years away. Flandern says that the time the spaceship perceives to be Earth time would be different, based on the ship's direction of travel, with respect to Earth. I disagree. Earth will be always seen at a time 4 years earlier, if the ship is 4 light-years from Earth, irrespective of the direction the ship is travelling. "So before commencing a journey back to Earth, let's suppose the traveler orbits [at a very high speed] AC [Alpha-Centauri] several times. Then each time the traveler heads away from Earth in that orbit, Earth time drops back to 2000; and each time the traveler heads toward Earth, inferred Earth time becomes 2008. " http://www.dipmat.unipg.it/~bartocci/ep6/ep6-vanfl.htm The problem with this error is that he uses it to question the accuracy of Relativity. Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 03:01:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA02267; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:29 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <10c.2f51d7d0.2d5b6527@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:59:51 EST Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_10c.2f51d7d0.2d5b6527_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"D32Ym1.0.HZ.DjWA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53034 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_10c.2f51d7d0.2d5b6527_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All -=20 I personally don't agree with Dr. Van Flandern hominid idea, though I would=20 love to read it as science fiction (historical fiction?)!=A0 I never dismiss= a=20 fertile and creative mind.=A0 Just like no knowledge is useless, no new idea= s or=20 creativity is useless.=A0 We often just have no idea what the utility will b= e in=20 the end, but it inevitably comes. That said, I believe the VF idea is that Mars was visited, admired, and=20 touched upon by the alien hominid race, but never fully occupied.=A0 So ther= e would=20 not necessarily be microscopic life there.=A0 In fact, he told me that the w= ater=20 scarring on Mars came from the blast of the other world, which exploded.=A0=20= Mars=20 was dry before that, and the other world quite wet.=A0 The water smashed and= =20 splashed across Mars' face, scouring it, and then went away quickly, accordi= ng=20 to this view.=A0 He says the "sediments" are possibly layered dustfall from=20 meteorite impacts, again from the blast.=A0 The spheres, again, resulting fr= om=20 impacts and melting. Anyway, hopefully we'll learn a lot from the drilling program.=A0 I was=20 thrilled to hang out with the RAT (rock abrasion tool) and its=20 designing/building/operating team in Little Italy before it made the big tim= e on Mars!=A0 : ) Best regards, Erik --part1_10c.2f51d7d0.2d5b6527_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All -

I personally don't agree with Dr. Van Flandern hominid idea, though I would=20= love to read it as science fiction (historical fiction?)!=A0 I never dismiss= a fertile and creative mind.=A0 Just like no knowledge is useless, no new i= deas or creativity is useless.=A0 We often just have no idea what the utilit= y will be in the end, but it inevitably comes.

That said, I believe the VF idea is that Mars was visited, admired, and touc= hed upon by the alien hominid race, but never fully occupied.=A0 So there wo= uld not necessarily be microscopic life there.=A0 In fact, he told me that t= he water scarring on Mars came from the blast of the other world, which expl= oded.=A0 Mars was dry before that, and the other world quite wet.=A0 The wat= er smashed and splashed across Mars' face, scouring it, and then went away q= uickly, according to this view.=A0 He says the "sediments" are possibly laye= red dustfall from meteorite impacts, again from the blast.=A0 The spheres, a= gain, resulting from impacts and melting.

Anyway, hopefully we'll learn a lot from the drilling program.=A0 I was thri= lled to hang out with the RAT (rock abrasion tool) and its designing/buildin= g/operating team in Little Italy before it made the big time on Mars!=A0 : )=

Best regards,

Erik
 --part1_10c.2f51d7d0.2d5b6527_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 06:09:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA23756; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:08:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:08:44 -0800 Message-ID: <402A374D.5030306@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:08:13 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site References: <10c.2f51d7d0.2d5b6527@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <10c.2f51d7d0.2d5b6527@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gj7G33.0.8p5.hTZA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53035 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Erikbaard@aol.com wrote: > That said, I believe the VF idea is that Mars was visited, admired, > and touched upon by the alien hominid race, but never fully occupied. Well, here's an interesting coincidence: http://web.org.uk/coincidences/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 06:45:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA15404; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:43:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:43:15 -0800 Message-ID: <402A3FAA.6090305@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:43:54 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site References: <010f01c3f04c$a21260c0$8837fea9@cpq> <005201c3f08b$dea98d80$6501a8c0@Craig> In-Reply-To: <005201c3f08b$dea98d80$6501a8c0@Craig> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yi4rh.0.cm3.2-ZA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53036 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: SnowDog wrote: > I have an issue with one article on the Flandern site. It involves > the effects of space/time perceptions during a hypothetical trip to > Alpha-Centauri at a speed very close to that of Light. A spaceship > leaving Earth in 2000 and arriving at Alpha-Centauri in 2004 after > traveling at a very high rate of speed, might see only 1 month of > elapsed time. When he arrives at Alpha-Centauri and looks back at > Earth, he would be seeing Earth in the year 2000, at a time only one > month after he left Earth, since Earth is 4 light-years away. > Flandern says that the time the spaceship perceives to be Earth time > would be different, based on the ship's direction of travel, with > respect to Earth. I disagree. Earth will be always seen at a time 4 > years earlier, if the ship is 4 light-years from Earth, irrespective > of the direction the ship is travelling. He's right about the perceptions, and he explains why in detail on that page. Motion toward or away from earth _does_ make a difference. Note well: He doesn't say the twin "sees" things change as his ship changes direction, he says the twin "infers" that things have changed. He talks at length about "time slippage" which is a difficult concept to grasp: when you move through space you also move through time. His explanation is actually much clearer than the ones given in most "simple explanations" of special relativity. If you don't get it do the Lorentz transformations and you will see what he's talking about: the transforms have nonzero cross terms, which means the time in another frame of reference depends on where you are in that frame. If you still don't get it, either post a question to sci.physics.relativity where there are constant interminable arguments about this, or email me directly and I'll see if I've got anything on hand which covers it in more detail. (Or pick up a copy of Schutz or Misner Thorne and Wheeler and dig through it.) (Tom may eventually take his "GPS clocks" someplace he can't really go with them; I didn't read all the way to the end in detail.) This probably isn't a good argument to have on Vortex since it has little or nothing to do with alternative energy or even valid alternative "science"; it just involves a misunderstanding of some points in linear algebra (which is all special relativity requires ... well, linear A and a little bit of tensor stuff). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 07:54:39 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA01407; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:49:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:49:02 -0800 Message-ID: <004101c3f0b6$66ae02e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <10c.2f51d7d0.2d5b6527@aol.com> Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:47:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA01354 Resent-Message-ID: <"Kp-8u.0.wL.jxaA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53037 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "That said, I believe the VF idea is that Mars was visited, admired, and touched upon by the alien hominid race, but never fully occupied. So there would not necessarily be microscopic life there. In fact, he told me that the water scarring on Mars came from the blast of the other world, which exploded. Mars was dry before that, and the other world quite wet. The water smashed and splashed across Mars' face, scouring it, and then went away quickly, according to this view. " Erik, I agree that we should never discredit serious but controversial ideas out of hand, but what is the hard evidence for this visitation? All these contrived layers of silliness that VF is creating flies in the face of what we do know about Mars from the hard evidence, and in the face of Occam... especially since we have billion year old meteorites from Mars that very clearly show *nanobe* type life... ERGO the simplest explanation for evolved-sentience - assuming that you want to go out on a limb and find it on Mars to explain certain structures - is to say that the nanobes evolved (with little competition) into thinking but non-hominid "worm-like" life, perhaps using the lichen as a food supply. This far-out idea might be bolstered by the glass tubes, which would NOT help an advanced hominid society very much, at least not one with space craft capable of interstellar flight. Of course, if your real agenda is to explain, say the 'face' as a product of intelligent life, and your worms are the most likely candidate for sentience, then you have a problem... but the more recent hi-rez images of the face show that the structure is clearly NOT, as VF vociferously has claimed, a very good hominid face at all - he should follow the thread and arguments on badastronomy.com - well, actually, I know he does follow them, so I guess he should just listen a little more closely to the people who study these things for a living - and finally admit he made a major mistake. Why should he jeopardize the other good ideas that he does have, and which occupy most of his website, with this tripe? But the even more revealing question is WHY would an advanced civilization, capable of interstellar space travel, go there to build pyramids and/or a face in the first place? Did they regress to their primitive roots, or did a few renegades escape from the craft and try to eke out a living there?.... see, he just keeps digging a deeper grave for this hominid conjecture every time a question is raised - and it only serves to spoil his other more promising thoughts. BTW - as for the ' Human Circadian Rhythm' coincidence that Terry mentioned... isn't it clear that any and all *reset-type* mechanisms only work if the *default setting* (24.5 hrs) is ALWAYS longer than the operand which is to be reset? IOW the reset mechanism wouldn't function at all if it were less than 24 hours so it has to be ingrained to be more - in fact, it is somewhat surprising that it is only a half hour more, on average - meaning that life evolved very efficiently here with no need of help from Martians.... who... we must imagine, if they arrived on spacecraft from elsewhere, would presumably have the rhythm of that home planet, not Mars, or most likely would have lost the need for a reset mechanism at all... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 08:57:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA23450; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:55:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:55:10 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:19:59 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"E78GI3.0.Ik5.jvbA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53038 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace. I think most of us are using photoshop. I expermented with a few other packages, including the JPL offering, and none of them were as good as Adobes product for what we're doing. I've switched the ruler option to measure in pixels, which should be easily transfered to whatever software you're using ( I sense the GIMP... ) The feature I was talking about was in the sol17 microimage you mentioned ( there's only one image set that shows the imprint ) and the coordinates are x=900 pixels y=800 pixels. I see (one of) the features you're talking about, at x=523 y=865, it's looks like a tiny fruiting body of a mushroom. But we're right down into the grain of the image, so it's hard to say what we're seeing. I agree that the soil does seem oddly fibrous. To me, that would suggest percolating water. But I'm no geologist. A comment about the images. What we are viewing are JPEG images which are compressed versions of the originals, likely in TIFF format. How do I get a hold of the TIFF versions? If we're exploring down into the grain we need to work from those, the JPEG encoding process really does a number on the fine detail ( the underlying algorithm is very much like a fourier transform of a waveform, imagine taking a raw scope waveform, decomposing it into harmonics, cutting out the high frequency components, then recomposing it. You have a one dimensional analog to what's happening in JPEG compression ). K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:43 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? I don't know where (from waht software) you guys are getting your coordinates from or to which URL the coordinates given below apply. Once you see and understand what the borders of holes into the cracked surface are made of fibers, you realized ALL the dark mat in the 8 Sol 17 microscopic images from Opportunity are composed of little fiber-like stems, most with little white heads. They are EVERYWHERE. However, they are at the limits of visiility, but as you browse the images you can see many fairly examples. They are like very tiny matches with very small heads, but with the match usually bent. For days I have been looking at the little white dots in the "sand" thinking they were white grains amoung the black or dark red sand grains. Once you realize the tiny white things might all be organic and attached to something you can see the fibrous nature of what's under them. I think the stuff is frozen. You can see where the surfaced cracked in one particular place in the photos, and how the fractured looking edges around the holes in which the big white rocks were buried contain tiny broken fibers. There is one large rock in the center of the mushed down area where this is especially true. The surface the rocks were pushed through was cracked, not mushed. It appears to me that the stuff under that surface is not nearly as structurally strong as the surface. That's why the rocks bury so completely, yet don't get completely covered up with "sand". You can see them when you look straight dwon at them through their holes. That fits in well with the model that the surface is supported on little stems. Proof of this concept likely requires a much higher resolution micrograph. However, the sulfur content of the stuff I think also jives with the possibility that the stuff is alive. Keep in mind that the stems are at the limits of resolution of the largest pixel count photos. You need to find an area that is in sharp focus to see the things. At 1:50 AM 2/11/4, Keith Nagel wrote: >Presumably he means stuff like this big "fibre" >at X = 12.5" Y=11". It looks frighteningly like a >fossil. > >I've seen complex carbonates crystallize in mats, >I wouldn't be surprised if the fibres are inorganic. >It's possible evidence of water though, a good sign. > >K. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:50 AM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? > > > >Hi Horace, > >Not really seeing it - > can you pick out a relative xy coordinate > on a specific foto, or snip an 8k clipout > like Rick did ? > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] >> Sent: Wednesday, 2004 February 11 12:47 >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: Live lichen on Mars? >> >> >> Some lichen have spherical fruiting bodies. Perhaps the little spheres in >> the sandstone were nucleated by hard shell fruiting bodies from lichen >> which grew eons ago. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner >> >> >> >> Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 09:04:33 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA26532; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:59:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:59:37 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:04:05 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Rick Monteverde's post Resent-Message-ID: <"SWEG11.0.WU6.uzbA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53039 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, I can see from escribe.com that you made a post with an attachment in the lichen thread. However, escribe deletes attachments and the post never reached my email. Could you post it again and/or send it directly to me? I am wondering if my ISP's spam filter zapped it somehow. Thanks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 09:06:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA31438; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:05:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:05:26 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Martian Seasons Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:30:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"S-n0V1.0.9h7.L3cA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53040 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice graphic, Explorecraft. You should write up a little post about some of your image processing techniques. It would be a good way to drive traffic to your website. I too am curious about the weather on mars, as well as the seasons. A little searching turned this up. http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/mer_weather/ They mention data going back 4 years, which would show current seasonal variation. You mention the lack of some data. I suspect NASA is being cautious about release of critical data, largely to avoid looking like idiots if they make a mistake. So few people are scientifically literate in our society. They look upon scientists as priests of some sort, pronouncing infallible doctrine. Needless to say, many egomaniacal professors are all to willing to fill the role (grin). But real science is a lot more like whats going on here in this forum. And at NASA, I am sure. If you read the press releases they do address some of the issues brought up here, just with several days of delay. K. -----Original Message----- From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:31 AM To: Vortex-L Subject: Martian Seasons Mars Rover Opportunity February 10 Another few points that aren't being publicly discussed, (along with undisclosed spectrometer data) :... I put the comments and the annotated foto at: http://www.explorecraft.com/martian_seasons.htm enjoy From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 09:13:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA02770; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:10:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:10:39 -0800 Message-ID: <007401c3f0c1$cdf8e0e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Rick Monteverde's post Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:09:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA02723 Resent-Message-ID: <"Qqnh81.0.Eh.E8cA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53041 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Also the PacBell.net bulk spam filter continues to throw all messages coming from Rick into its spam folder, despite the message coming though vortex on the last leg - which makes me wonder if someone in past weeks has co-opted his email address to send spam with? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:04 AM Subject: Rick Monteverde's post > Rick, > > I can see from escribe.com that you made a post with an attachment in the > lichen thread. However, escribe deletes attachments and the post never > reached my email. Could you post it again and/or send it directly to me? > I am wondering if my ISP's spam filter zapped it somehow. Thanks. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 09:31:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA15077; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:27:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:27:47 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Rick Monteverde's post Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:26:13 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <007401c3f0c1$cdf8e0e0$8837fea9@cpq> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"UUyFD1.0.Sh3.IOcA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53042 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I still got it, despite previous grief with spam filters somewhere between here and vortex. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Thursday, 2004 February 12 00:09 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Rick Monteverde's post > > > Also the PacBell.net bulk spam filter continues to throw all > messages coming from Rick into its spam folder, despite the > message coming though vortex on the last leg - which makes me > wonder if someone in past weeks has co-opted his email address to > send spam with? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Horace Heffner" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:04 AM > Subject: Rick Monteverde's post > > > > Rick, > > > > I can see from escribe.com that you made a post with an > attachment in the > > lichen thread. However, escribe deletes attachments and the post never > > reached my email. Could you post it again and/or send it > directly to me? > > I am wondering if my ISP's spam filter zapped it somehow. Thanks. > > > > Regards, > > > > Horace Heffner > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 10:08:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA11451; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:03:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:03:18 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <125.2aa1579a.2d5bc82f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:02:23 EST Subject: Re: Tom van Flandern's site To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_125.2aa1579a.2d5bc82f_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"-d73l3.0.to2.bvcA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53043 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_125.2aa1579a.2d5bc82f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/11/04 10:54:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > But the even more revealing question is WHY would an advanced civilization, > capable of interstellar space travel, go there to build pyramids and/or a > face in the first place? Again, it's interplanetary, not interstellar. As I understand it, he says these people were not hugely more advanced than we are. So he imagines a society able to put large artworks on its companion planet (in the binary pairing remaining after the gas host exploded). It would be as if we could cheaply put tourist attractions on our moon, or had the cultural impulse to do so despite cost. I'm not saying this is right, but it should be praised or blasted based on a correct understanding of it. Erik --part1_125.2aa1579a.2d5bc82f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/11/04 10:54:09= AM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:

But the even more revealing que= stion is WHY would an advanced civilization, capable of interstellar space t= ravel, go there to build pyramids and/or a face in the first place?

Again, it's interplanetary, not interstellar.  As I understand it, he s= ays these people were not hugely more advanced than we are.  So he imag= ines a society able to put large artworks on its companion planet (in the bi= nary pairing remaining after the gas host exploded).  It would be as if= we could cheaply put tourist attractions on our moon, or had the cultural i= mpulse to do so despite cost.

I'm not saying this is right, but it should be praised or blasted based on a= correct understanding of it.

Erik --part1_125.2aa1579a.2d5bc82f_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 10:26:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA25097; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:22:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:22:11 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c3f0cb$cb9b8460$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Occam and Martian hominids Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:20:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3F088.BCD99360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"W_67n.0.586.JBdA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53044 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3F088.BCD99360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why should we give lip service to "Occam's razor"... to assume that = simpler explanations are better? Does it change things if both the = explanations in question are outrageous from the git-go? Why should the = universe be simple and elegant on any scale? After all, 'life' is = extremely complex, so why should the rules behind life be simpler? In the past, I have been as guilty as anyone for disregarding the = importance of what has been called Occam's razor... nevertheless there = is an interesting thread on Slashdot that not only contains some subtle = humor but does back the 'simplicity-favored' idea up with mathematics... = and it bears repeating parts of it here in the context of van Flandern's = outrageous contentions... i.e. about not just "life on Mars" but hominid = life that visited Mars, built pyramids and then moved-on to Earth 3 = million years ago just ahead of the destruction of the planet.=20 The following is slightly paraphrased from threads found on: http://science.slashdot.org/science/04/02/09/128223.shtml?tid=3D134&tid=3D= 160 "Occam's razor, in its original form, translates to "Do not multiply = entities unnecessarily". That has been modernized to "The simplest = explanation is usually correct", which is close, but not exactly the = same. What Occam's razor really means is: given two (or more) possible = explanations of a phenomenon, with no evidence favoring one over the = other, assume that the simplest one is correct. For instance, if I find a pinecone lying on the ground under a pine = tree, the simplest explanation is that it fell off of the pine tree. = Sure, it might have been planted there by invisible space aliens in = conjunction with the Illuminati acting in strict accordance with the = Masonic doctrine of the Coming of the Pine Cone King, but since there is = no evidence to favor one explanation over the other, I should assume = that it fell off of the pine tree. That doesn't mean that it did fall off the pine tree, and it doesn't = mean that I might not change my mind as more evidence is found. It also = doesn't mean that I shouldn't look for more evidence and try to = determine the origin of the pine cone with greater accuracy. That isn't = what it says at all. It just means that until such evidence arises which = would cause me to revise my view of things, I should assume the simplest = explanation that fits the facts. The explanation should only change when = the known facts do, or a better explanation is found.=20 Sure, one can argue that if two theories are functionally equivalent, = there's no downside to taking the simpler one. But has anyone = demonstrated this logically or mathematically? If the 2 theories are = really functionally equivalent why accept the simpler logically or = mathematically.=20 First, the more complex theory only wins if it can explain behavior that = the simple one can't, then they aren't really equivalent. Assume for the = moment that Einstein's physics and Newton's physics are functionally = equivalent. Einstein's is more complex. If both came out in Newton's = time, Einstein's would have to be rejected under Occam, or would it? = Einstein's explains many things that Newton's doesn't - but back then = they didn't realize that those things needed explaining. The only thing = that could be pointed to then that Newton's didn't capture is slight = mis-prediction of the orbit of Mercury.=20 As time goes on more and more evidence accumulates that Einstein can = explain and Newton can't. They become less and less equivalent, but that = is another issue, as our premise is for at least rough equivalence in = predictability. But there is more. Occam's Razor can be considered to be = a mathematical conclusion of Kolmogorov Complexity Theory. Briefly, Kolmogorov Complexity Theory is the study of the = compressibility of strings of symbols. E.g., consider the three 10 digit = strings "0123456789", "4294967296", and "5286354993". Which is most = compressible (or, almost equivalently, easiest to remember)? Well, the = first is obviously easy to remember (compress): count from 0 to 9. The = second is (not as obviously) perhaps even easier to remember (compress): = it is 2^32. I believe the third to be difficult to remember because = probably it has to be completely memorized - I typed it in "randomly". Now suppose we consider infinite strings instead of finite strings, and = we consider all computer programs that print out the first n symbols of = a given infinite string. In Komogorov Complexity, Occam's Razor is = equivalent to the idea that the shorter the program that prints out the = first n symbols, the more likely it is to print out the correct (n+1)th = symbol. This conclusion can be made completely precise, and consequently = "Occam's Razor" becomes a provable conclusion. One way to think about why these mathematics make Occam's Razor true is = that shorter theories are less likely to have arbitrary, extraneous = features which imply incorrect conclusions (predictions).=20 Obviously, in the context of van Flandern's outrageous contentions... = i.e. about not just "life on Mars" but hominid life that visited Mars, = built pyramids and then moved-on to Earth 3 million years ago, just = ahead of the unproven destruction of the planet - you have so many = extraneous features cropping-in to the basic premise of 'intelligent = life on Mars' that VF's whole intellectual capacity can become suspect, = even laughable. Therefore, the major problem with Occam for van Flandern is not just the = one false premise itself. VF breaks new ground with many other ideas, = ideas with real merit, one might suspect... but for those who recognize = the wisdom of Occam, the simplest thing to do is to write-off everything = the man has to say as being just as crack-pot and cranky as his = contention of hominid life that visited Mars, built pyramids and then = moved-on to Earth 3 million years ago just ahead of the destruction of = the planet. Regards, Jones Beene ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3F088.BCD99360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why should we give lip service to "Occam's razor"... to assume = that=20 simpler explanations are better? Does it change things if both the = explanations=20 in question are outrageous from the git-go? Why should the universe be = simple=20 and elegant on any scale? After all, 'life' is extremely complex, so why = should=20 the rules behind life be simpler?
 
In the past, I have been as guilty as anyone for disregarding the=20 importance of what has been called Occam's razor... nevertheless there = is an=20 interesting thread on Slashdot that not only contains some subtle humor = but does=20 back the 'simplicity-favored' idea up with mathematics... and it bears = repeating=20 parts of it here in the context of van Flandern's outrageous = contentions...=20 i.e. about not just "life on Mars" but hominid life that visited = Mars,=20 built pyramids and then moved-on to Earth 3 million years ago just ahead = of the=20 destruction of the planet.
 
The following is slightly paraphrased from threads found on:
http://science.slashdot.org/science/04/02/09/128223.sht= ml?tid=3D134&tid=3D160

"Occam's razor, in its original form, translates to "Do not = multiply=20 entities unnecessarily". That has been modernized to "The simplest = explanation=20 is usually correct", which is close, but not exactly the same.

What Occam's razor really means is: given two (or more) = possible=20 explanations of a phenomenon, with no evidence favoring one over the = other,=20 assume that the simplest one is correct.

For instance, if I find a pinecone lying on the ground under a = pine=20 tree, the simplest explanation is that it fell off of the pine tree. = Sure, it=20 might have been planted there by invisible space aliens in conjunction = with the=20 Illuminati acting in strict accordance with the Masonic doctrine of the = Coming=20 of the Pine Cone King, but since there is no evidence to favor one = explanation=20 over the other, I should assume that it fell off of the pine tree.

That doesn't mean that it did fall off the pine tree, and it = doesn't=20 mean that I might not change my mind as more evidence is found. It also = doesn't=20 mean that I shouldn't look for more evidence and try to determine the = origin of=20 the pine cone with greater accuracy. That isn't what it says at all. It = just=20 means that until such evidence arises which would cause me to revise my = view of=20 things, I should assume the simplest explanation that fits the facts. = The=20 explanation should only change when the known facts do, or a better = explanation=20 is found.
 
Sure, one can argue that if two theories are functionally = equivalent,=20 there's no downside to taking the simpler one. But has anyone = demonstrated this=20 logically or mathematically? If the 2 theories are really = functionally=20 equivalent why accept the simpler logically or mathematically.
 
First, the more complex theory only wins if it can explain behavior = that=20 the simple one can't, then they aren't really equivalent. Assume for the = moment=20 that Einstein's physics and Newton's physics are functionally = equivalent.=20 Einstein's is more complex. If both came out in Newton's time, = Einstein's would=20 have to be rejected under Occam, or would it? Einstein's explains many = things=20 that Newton's doesn't - but back then they didn't realize that those = things=20 needed explaining. The only thing that could be pointed to then that = Newton's=20 didn't capture is slight mis-prediction of the orbit of Mercury.
 
As time goes on more and more evidence accumulates that Einstein = can=20 explain and Newton can't. They become less and less equivalent, but that = is=20 another issue, as our premise is for at least rough equivalence in=20 predictability. But there is more. Occam's Razor can be considered to be = a=20 mathematical conclusion of Kolmogorov Complexity Theory.
Briefly, Kolmogorov Complexity Theory is the study of the = compressibility=20 of strings of symbols. E.g., consider the three 10 digit strings = "0123456789",=20 "4294967296", and "5286354993". Which is most compressible (or, almost=20 equivalently, easiest to remember)? Well, the first is obviously easy to = remember (compress): count from 0 to 9. The second is (not as obviously) = perhaps=20 even easier to remember (compress): it is 2^32. I believe the third to = be=20 difficult to remember because probably it has to be completely = memorized -=20 I typed it in "randomly".

Now suppose we consider infinite strings instead of finite = strings, and=20 we consider all computer programs that print out the first n symbols of = a given=20 infinite string. In Komogorov Complexity, Occam's Razor is equivalent to = the=20 idea that the shorter the program that prints out the first n symbols, = the more=20 likely it is to print out the correct (n+1)th symbol. This conclusion = can be=20 made completely precise, and consequently "Occam's Razor" becomes a = provable=20 conclusion.

One way to think about why these mathematics make Occam's Razor = true is=20 that shorter theories are less likely to have arbitrary, extraneous = features which imply incorrect conclusions (predictions).
 
Obviously, in the context of van Flandern's outrageous = contentions...=20 i.e. about not just "life on Mars" but hominid life that visited = Mars,=20 built pyramids and then moved-on to Earth 3 million years ago, just = ahead of the=20 unproven destruction of the planet - you have so many extraneous = features=20 cropping-in to the basic premise of 'intelligent life on Mars' that VF's = whole=20 intellectual capacity can become suspect, even laughable.
 
Therefore, the major problem with Occam for van Flandern is not = just the=20 one false premise itself. VF breaks new ground with many other ideas, = ideas with=20 real merit, one might suspect... but for those who recognize the wisdom = of=20 Occam, the simplest thing to do is to write-off everything the man has = to say as=20 being just as crack-pot and cranky as his contention of hominid life = that=20 visited Mars, built pyramids and then moved-on to Earth 3 million years = ago just=20 ahead of the destruction of the planet.
 
Regards,
 
Jones Beene
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3F088.BCD99360-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 10:31:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA28107; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:27:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:27:41 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:31:56 -0900 To: From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"JVvLi.0.3t6.SGdA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53045 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:19 PM 2/11/4, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Horace. > >I think most of us are using photoshop. I expermented with >a few other packages, including the JPL offering, and none >of them were as good as Adobes product for what we're doing. >I've switched the ruler option to measure in pixels, which >should be easily transfered to whatever software you're >using ( I sense the GIMP... ) I just now installed the GIMP to see what is is all about. It's pretty complex! I was using Mozilla to view the photos on Red Hat linux. Image 8 of 8 of the Opportunity Sol 17 microscopic images is a 1020x1020 image on my configuration and monitor when using GIMP. > >The feature I was talking about was in the sol17 microimage >you mentioned ( there's only one image set that shows the >imprint ) and the coordinates are x=900 pixels y=800 pixels. At 900,800 in a 1020x1020 image I see a nice large surface crack right across the boundary of the smushed down area. > >I see (one of) the features you're talking about, at x=523 y=865, it's >looks like a tiny fruiting body of a mushroom. Not sure what part of image you are talking about here. >But we're right >down into the grain of the image, so it's hard to say what >we're seeing. I agree that the soil does seem oddly fibrous. >To me, that would suggest percolating water. But I'm no >geologist. > >A comment about the images. What we are viewing are JPEG images >which are compressed versions of the originals, likely in TIFF >format. How do I get a hold of the TIFF versions? Beats me! I don't know. What size in pixels do you see: It is the 8th out of 8 of the Sol 17 microscopic images. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 10:50:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA09582; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:46:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:46:22 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:50:43 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"yIzax1.0.eL2.zXdA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53046 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:11 PM 2/11/4, explorecraft wrote: >Makes the eyeballs hurt to look at this stuff, > but conceivable. There are an awful lot of these > dark wiggly tracks, and they certainly don't look > like ordinary flake cracks. I think the tiny dark wiggly tracks are the "matchstick" lichen's stems. The mass of tiny (few pixel diameter) white dots mixed throughout are the heads of the matches. > >It is instructive that the first word from SPIRIT > was that the soil <'magic carpet'> seemed cohesive, > and that where Opportunity pushed, the soil > did not behave like dry sand or dust > but rather a like crust, which fits the mat scenario. I think he crust is merely frozen in place. As to exactly what material is frozen - that is more complex. Some kind of gell I would think, in order to withstand the freeze-thaw cycles. >A crust implies either some surface adhesive (fibrous?) > or, inversely, that the subsurface is indeed > lightly packed > (as someone mentioned - sublimated ice mud, I think that was Terry Blanton that likened the airbag splats to frozen Georgia clay. A frozen miniature lichen surface might fit the bill too, though the dimensions are much much smaller. > much the same as seen in the North Dakota badlands > after spring thaw - a dry flaky crust ( ~5mm) overlaying > a crumbly layer (10-30 mm) of spherical clay crumbs, > all caked over a wet clay) > >Maybe the microspheres are fruit from the lichen, > being the earlier, wet-era result of match-head lichen > having a nice environment to produce. I'm not sure which microspheres you are referring to here. If it is the big roughly 0.3 mm rocks then I think maybe those came from an entirely different species and another age. >But that would mean the 'fruit' is either Here you mean the "match heads" or the much larger roughly 0.3 mm rocks? Many of the "rocks", even the non-spherical varieties, look (in shape but maybe not size) like various varieties of terrestrial lichen fruiting bodies. The rocks may well have been nucleated by hard shelled fruiting bodies, which would accoutn for the detailed internal and surface structures. The holes in the sandstone-like rocks might be from roots of plants from eons ago, or even from boring critters (such speculation!) > a very strongly cemented mineral, > or that all the spheres we see are mineralied fossils > which seems improbable, given fossilization > would require more water and some sort of replacement > mechanism. >Interesting. at the very least. The lichen hypothesis may be all wrong, but at least it does give another prospective to the images, and the seems to fit a lot of facts so far. The main problem so far is communication and vocabulary. It would be interesting to here what a lichen expert might say about the photos if he didn't know they were from Mars! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 11:21:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA29090; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:16:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:16:53 -0800 Message-ID: <402A7F7B.1000201@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:16:11 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Live lichen on Mars? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hnavJ1.0.R67.a-dA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53047 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >The lichen hypothesis may be all wrong, but at least it does give another >prospective to the images, and the seems to fit a lot of facts so far. > Probably as good as any - better than most including my grandson's - the M&M&M's are actually sentient Martians! The ones who lived in the rocks contacted their friends when the alien ship crashed into their crater. It looked familiar to them when it was a clump of spherical airbags. But when it morphed into the strange rover creature, everyone came running from all around. Seriously, there are Martians on Mars and we sent them there: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/marsroverdarkfield.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 12:22:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA07928; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:19:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:19:12 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:23:32 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"EqTZ51.0.ex1._ueA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53048 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote:" I'm not sure which microspheres you are referring to here. If it is the big roughly 0.3 mm rocks then I think maybe those came from an entirely different species and another age." That should have said: " I'm not sure which microspheres you are referring to here. If it is the big roughly 0.3 cm rocks then I think maybe those came from an entirely different species and another age." I used mm instead of cm above. A lot of the ~3 mm size rocks look like they might be from or accretions on larger and likely ancient species of lichen or fungus. The (possibly live) lichen in the mat looks to me to have stems about half a mm long or so. More the size of a typical mold than terrestrial lichen - but mold alone could not live on Mars. A cohexisting source of photosynthesis, likely a bacterium, is probaly needed, so the mat must be a lichen of sime kind. What a strange existence - being frozen most of the time only to wake up briefly periodically. Could make for a very long lifespan if dehydration/deliquification is somehow avoided in that near vacuum. Gee, I wonder if it can survive freeze-dried! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 12:35:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA15523; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:31:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:31:30 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Rick Monteverde's post Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"wjR0M.0.Vo3.s4fA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53049 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think the mailserver at my web hosting service was briefly compromised during the height of the MyDoom problems, and spewed tons of worm trash until they shut it down and cleaned it. Anyway, I put the image on the web. Here's the URL: http://www.highsurf.com/images/threads.jpg Ever play with magnetic marbles? Some of those grans seem to attract each other as if they were magnetic, which could explain the wet sand style cohesiveness of the loose surface material. - Rick >Rick, > >I can see from escribe.com that you made a post with an attachment in the >lichen thread. However, escribe deletes attachments and the post never >reached my email. Could you post it again and/or send it directly to me? >I am wondering if my ISP's spam filter zapped it somehow. Thanks. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 13:16:49 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA17791; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:11:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:11:53 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:16:18 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Rick Monteverde's post Resent-Message-ID: <"u5LXC3.0.wL4.PgfA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53051 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:31 AM 2/11/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >I think the mailserver at my web hosting service was briefly compromised >during the height of the MyDoom problems, and spewed tons of worm trash >until they shut it down and cleaned it. Anyway, I put the image on the >web. Here's the URL: > >http://www.highsurf.com/images/threads.jpg > >Ever play with magnetic marbles? Some of those grans seem to attract each >other as if they were magnetic, which could explain the wet sand style >cohesiveness of the loose surface material. Thanks for posting this on a website! The blurryness of the image indicates it is not image 8 out of 8 of the Sol 17 microscopic images: Image 8 is far more in focus and you can see that the features you pointed out are not a bunch of contiguous grains, but rather have features in between them. That is to say there are gaps and there are features at an apparent lower levbel visible through the gaps. If the "strings" were contiguous the premise of magnetic attraction of grins would make some sense, but since the grains don't actually touch it doesn't make sense, at least in the indicated places. The other thing is the fact that the white "match heads" are always on the end of the "matches". This, to me, is an indication of some more cohesive, consistent and prevalent structure. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 13:17:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA15773; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:10:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:10:06 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:34:41 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"SNy3J2.0.Ps3.jefA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53050 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Horace, >I just now installed the GIMP to see what is is all about. It's pretty >complex! I was using Mozilla to view the photos on Red Hat linux. Yep, I figured you might be using GIMP. >Image 8 of 8 of the Opportunity Sol 17 microscopic images is a 1020x1020 >image on my configuration and monitor when using GIMP. Interesting. I get 1024x1024 pixels, which for you hex-heads is 400x400. Sounds like the GIMP is slipping some bits on you... >At 900,800 in a 1020x1020 image I see a nice large surface crack right >across the boundary of the smushed down area. OK, it's sort of to the top left of the crack. It's probably just a piece of the crack, I'm not claiming anything special. It does sort of look like a worm body though. >Not sure what part of image you are talking about here. Can't you get a readout of your cursor position? That coordinate puts you right on top of the feature. >What size in pixels do you see: All these 1M images are 1024x1024. A standard computer geek size ( think in hex, not decimal ). K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 13:22:03 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA23685; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:18:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:18:36 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:23:02 -0900 To: , From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Live lichen on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"OOJL8.0.xn5.imfA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53052 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:34 PM 2/11/4, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hey Horace, > >>I just now installed the GIMP to see what is is all about. It's pretty >>complex! I was using Mozilla to view the photos on Red Hat linux. > >Yep, I figured you might be using GIMP. Actually, I wasn't using GIMP until you metioned the name. I installed it because you mentioned it. > >>Image 8 of 8 of the Opportunity Sol 17 microscopic images is a 1020x1020 >>image on my configuration and monitor when using GIMP. > >Interesting. I get 1024x1024 pixels, which for you hex-heads >is 400x400. Sounds like the GIMP is slipping some bits on you... That is probably because I manually calibrated GIMP to my monitor during the install. GIMP gives you rulers to physically measure if you don't know your monitor resolution. > >>At 900,800 in a 1020x1020 image I see a nice large surface crack right >>across the boundary of the smushed down area. > >OK, it's sort of to the top left of the crack. It's probably just >a piece of the crack, I'm not claiming anything special. It does >sort of look like a worm body though. You might want to look at Fig. 8 of 8 to see if it is still what you think. > >>Not sure what part of image you are talking about here. > >Can't you get a readout of your cursor position? That coordinate >puts you right on top of the feature. > >>What size in pixels do you see: >3M2M1.HTML> > >All these 1M images are 1024x1024. A standard computer geek size ( think in >hex, not decimal ). > >K. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 14:01:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA18004; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:58:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:58:28 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:58:04 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Rick Monteverde's post Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA17940 Resent-Message-ID: <"Xkipw3.0.GP4.3MgA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53053 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - I'm not sure I can see the "matches". It's down to the pixels, and in jpegs before we even get to the pixels we get hit with processing artifacts, which could include streaks and blotches coming off pixels that stand out from their neighbors. That 'standing out' is what makes the jpeg algorithm get jumpy since it's based on calculating differences between pixel samples. I just can't tell what's going on beyond the fact that there do appear to be some alignment of sand grains. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 15:48:32 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA26940; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:43:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:43:19 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040211162410.01cb49f8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:16:49 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Occam and Martian hominids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"IzhBm3.0.ha6.MuhA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53054 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: Why should we give lip service to "Occam's razor"... to assume that simpler explanations are better? Does it change things if both the explanations in question are outrageous from the git-go? Why should the universe be simple and elegant on any scale? After all, 'life' is extremely complex, so why should the rules behind life be simpler? My understanding is that Occam's razor is valuable not because it indicates what is likely to be true, but because it indicates which theory is more likely to be useful. If all known facts can be explained by Complex Hypothesis A, and by Simple Hypothesis B, all else being equal, you should select B because it is easier to work with. Occam's razor itself is no indication of what is real. Actually, I think many philosophy-of-science schools, going back to David Hume and other empiricists, do not try to address the question: "is this real?" or "does this theory actually correspond to the ultimate deep reality?" I myself think such questions are meaningless. Perhaps I should say, they are not a subject science is equipped to deal with. Useful questions include: "Does this theory work reasonably well?" or: "Does it explain most data better than competing theories?" No theory can explain all data, because some data is bogus, and because people are not omniscient. I believe the last big name scientist who worried about such issues was Einstein, who had it in for probability theory, as everyone knows. Younger physicists thought he was upset over nothing. In 1935, Oppenheimer called him, "absolutely cuckoo." (T. Levenson, p. 139) As I have often pointed out, it is not "less true" or "less real" to say that the sun and stars rotate around the earth every day. Copernicus was right only in the sense that his model is much easier for astronomers. For some purposes, such as old fashioned celestial navigation, people still use Ptolomy's astronomy. It still works, it is still the most convenient model for that task, so it is still "right." People who want to know the ultimate nature of reality should study philosophy or theology. When natural science (and especially biology) resolves one question, it usually reveals ten new unsolved mysteries, open questions, unexpected complexity, human ignorance, and confusion. I think it was H. G. Wells who wrote a beautiful essay describing the change in science at the 19th century, when a feeling of disappointment and dismay that gradually replaced the expectation of progress and growing certainty. He described an explorer deep in cave of mysteries, who strikes a match and reveals walls full of marvelous writing revealing deep secrets, but only a short distance away, the explorer sees more passageways, more walls, and endless inky darkness beyond. Compare modern models of atom physics to the versions in 1880 or 1900, when people had no inkling that sub-atomic particles or isotopes might exist, and every few years they thought they had reached the final, ultimate model, or Theory of Everything as people call it today. Nowadays, sub-atomic physics has become such a complicated, tangled, wooly mess that physicists have resorted to voting on what they think the data means. Traditionalists such as Ed Storms consider this a travesty. (I mailed him a New York Times article describing science-by-vote, J. Glanz, "Like Particles, 2 Houses of Physics Collide," January 20, 2004.) "Occam's razor, in its original form, translates to "Do not multiply entities unnecessarily". That has been modernized to "The simplest explanation is usually correct", which is close, but not exactly the same. It isn't even close, in my opinion. The first is a good rule of thumb, the second is beyond the bounds of science. "What Occam's razor really means is: given two (or more) possible explanations of a phenomenon, with no evidence favoring one over the other, assume that the simplest one is correct." Exactly. "For instance, if I find a pinecone lying on the ground under a pine tree, the simplest explanation is that it fell off of the pine tree. Sure, it might have been planted there by invisible space aliens in conjunction with the Illuminati acting in strict accordance with the Masonic doctrine of the Coming of the Pine Cone King, but since there is no evidence to favor one explanation over the other, I should assume that it fell off of the pine tree." Bad example. Hypothesis #1 is well supported because you can watch more pine cones fall. Hypothesis #2 has no support. It would require a whole bunch of new observations and evidence that would be difficult to collect. If the hypothetical aliens are completely invisible to sight, radar and all other known means of detection, that makes them non-falsifiable, meaning they are not part of science at all. (They will become part of it when you devise some means to detect them.) "Sure, one can argue that if two theories are functionally equivalent, there's no downside to taking the simpler one. But has anyone demonstrated this logically or mathematically?" Not as far as I know. As I said, the Occam's razor is means of selecting a more useful hypothesis; it doesn't indicate which is more likely to be true. In many cases, such as Ptolomy versus Copernicus, they are both true, they always have been, and always will be. "First, the more complex theory only wins if it can explain behavior that the simple one can't, then they aren't really equivalent." Right. "Assume for the moment that Einstein's physics and Newton's physics are functionally equivalent. Einstein's is more complex. If both came out in Newton's time, Einstein's would have to be rejected under Occam, or would it? Einstein's explains many things that Newton's doesn't - but back then they didn't realize that those things needed explaining. The only thing that could be pointed to then that Newton's didn't capture is slight mis-prediction of the orbit of Mercury." I do not think measured the orbit that closely circa 1650. As far as they could have measured or known, Newtonian physics would have been simpler and therefore better. It still is, for the most part. When we measure the velocity of ordinary vehicles on earth, we do not take into account relativistic changes because they are far too small to detect. The key thing is, we will continue to measure the orbit of Mercury, more and more closely, and you can bet we will continue to find anomalies in those numbers. It is likely that eventually it will be shown that Einstein's theory is a limited, special case that cannot account for the fifth or six decimal point in the measurements, or for some unexpected perturbation. This process of refinement will *never end*. There is no indication we can or will come closer to any final understanding the orbit of Mercury, or the exact nature of heat transfer, or the physiology of E. Coli, or anything else. Science is not progressive. That notion has been obsolete for over a century. It does not tend toward more well established, firmer, more defensible theories. It is just as likely to veer off in the opposite direction, toward chaos and widening confusion. There is nothing wrong or shameful about this. It does no harm. Yet some people treat it like a dirty little secret, and you seldom read it in the pages of the Scientific American or high school textbook. It seems pretty obvious to me. Many experimentalists I know, such as Fleischmann and Mizuno, take it for granted. "Obviously, in the context of van Flandern's outrageous contentions... i.e. about not just "life on Mars" but hominid life that visited Mars, built pyramids and then moved-on to Earth 3 million years ago, just ahead of the unproven destruction of the planet - you have so many extraneous features cropping-in to the basic premise of 'intelligent life on Mars' that VF's whole intellectual capacity can become suspect, even laughable." Indeed. You have a mountain of assertions without a shred of evidence. This is about as far from "science" as a person can get. "... but for those who recognize the wisdom of Occam, the simplest thing to do is to write-off everything the man has to say as being just as crack-pot and cranky as his contention of hominid life that visited Mars , built pyramids and then moved-on to Earth 3 million years ago just ahead of the destruction of the planet." I do not think that is a proper application of Occam's rule. This is a commonsense judgement based on our knowledge of human nature. We often note that a person who says crazy things about one subject is equally crazy about other subjects. That is a reliable rule of thumb. Life is too short to examine every claim in detail, so we often use this shortcut, and we evaluate the person making the claim, instead the claim itself. This is somewhat unfair, and lazy, and it can lead to the Ad hominem false argument. But it often works. If van Flandern wishes to convince people he is right, he should study social standards, and he should avoid mentioning some of his more controversial ideas. If he does not care whether he convinces people or not, he should say whatever he pleases. At LENR-CANR.org we have censored out some of the controversial claims related to CF, such as transmuting macroscopic amounts of gold, or biological transmutations, along with some of the extremely unconventional theories. This is not because we (Storms and Rothwell) oppose these claims, or because we are upset by them. It is for political reasons only. The goal of LENR-CANR is to convince mainstream scientists that CF is real. This goal would be hampered by presenting such extreme views. Actually, I have no opinion about most theories, and I could not care less how weird the data may seem. At the Scientific American and the APS they feel hostility toward such things. They have a sense that publishing such data will harm their readers and sully the traditions and reputation of academic science. I am not a member of the congregation at the Church of Academic Science, and I could not care less about the Goddess Academia's Sacred Reputation. I don't publish because of politics and limited web space. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 20:13:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA10416; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:10:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:10:55 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1135563196==_============" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:15:00 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: crushed lichen Resent-Message-ID: <"v6M33.0.hY2.FplA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53055 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135563196==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Attached is a jpeg of the rock crushed into the suposed lichen, hopefully showing the stalks. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AB//2Q== --============_-1135563196==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regards, Horace Heffner --============_-1135563196==_============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 00:06:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA12571; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:04:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:04:35 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Fossil found in Opportunity Foto? Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:03:00 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3F179.4E3F1640" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Ktu0k3.0.I43.IEpA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53056 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3F179.4E3F1640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't know for sure, but it needs some looking at: http://www.explorecraft.com/mars_fossil.htm note the size progression, and the fact that it appears to be in a zone I labelled as 'turbulent sedimentation', being one the zones in the four-layer cycle where the sediment is either less well cemented, or eroded due to being deposited with matter (biomass?) which subsequently decayed away. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3F179.4E3F1640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Don't = know for=20 sure,
 but it needs=20 some looking at:
http://www.explorecr= aft.com/mars_fossil.htm
 
note = the size=20 progression,
 and the fact=20 that it appears
 to be in a=20 zone I labelled as 'turbulent = sedimentation',
 being one the=20 zones in the four-layer cycle
 where the=20 sediment is either less well cemented,
 or eroded due=20 to being deposited with matter (biomass?)
 which=20 subsequently decayed away.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3F179.4E3F1640-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 01:08:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA11275; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:07:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:07:29 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Fossil found in Opportunity Foto? Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:05:33 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"8fzn11.0.3m2.G9qA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53057 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Munged format, resending Don't know for sure, but it needs some looking at: http://www.explorecraft.com/mars_fossil.htm note the size progression, and the fact that it appears to be in a zone I labelled as 'turbulent sedimentation', being one the zones in the four-layer cycle where the sediment is either less well cemented, or eroded due to being deposited with matter (biomass?) which subsequently decayed away. cheers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 01:28:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA22052; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:26:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:26:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:26:22 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Novel use for ZIP utility: test Mars fossils! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1135544499==_ma============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"hL3_j2.0.TO5.FRqA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53058 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135544499==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The degree of complexity of an image determines how much you can compress it with a file compression utility. Can that help you determine if a stromatolite formation was created by microbes or not? If the image is of biotic forms like stromatolites formed by microbes, it will be more compressible than an image of similar abiotic formations - according to Corsetti and Storrie-Lombardi in a recent Astrobiology article: http://www.liebertpub.com/AST/default1.asp ...takes you to a page where you'll see a 'free samples' logo. Go there and get Issue #4 (Winter) 2003, it's the first article. Available in PDF and SVG. Other interesting articles relevant to the findings on Mars abound. 2001 through 2003 all free online! - Rick --============_-1135544499==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Novel use for ZIP utility: test Mars fossils!
The degree of complexity of an image determines how much you can compress it with a file compression utility. Can that help you determine if a stromatolite formation was created by microbes or not? If the image is of biotic forms like stromatolites formed by microbes, it will be more compressible than an image of similar abiotic formations - according to Corsetti and Storrie-Lombardi in a recent Astrobiology article:

http://www.liebertpub.com/AST/default1.asp

...takes you to a page where you'll see a 'free samples' logo. Go there and get Issue #4 (Winter) 2003, it's the first article. Available in PDF and SVG. Other interesting articles relevant to the findings on Mars abound. 2001 through 2003 all free online!

- Rick
--============_-1135544499==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 01:52:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA00433; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:50:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:50:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:50:21 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Fossil found in Opportunity Foto? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA00402 Resent-Message-ID: <"PNog_.0.j6.mnqA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53059 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think the whole damn place is a fossil. See my other post on using ZIP to evaluate the complexity content. I haven't used it as I don't know what I would be looking for as a comparison or baseline, but visually things seen from the level of images detailed enough to see the blueberries on down to the micrographs all have a common characteristic: a similar level of random regularity involving spheres. Chains of spheres show up in the matrix at larger scales, then you look close and seem 'em again all over the intervening material at a smaller scale. The blueberries appear to be made of formations of stranded micro-spheres, and now even the semi-loose sand wants to get into the act. Chains of spheres making larger spheres, and chains of spheres across scale. Spiralling, straight runs, wavy curves, fractals. I think Horace is right too, there seem to be hints and bits of similar rocks at the Spirit site. I was also looking at orbital shots of various areas since pondering these recent photos, and some of the structures large enough to be seen in them are beginning to make sense from this perspective. How about the recent Mars Express shot of the canyon with the bluish stuff in the bottom of the ravine? Blueberries roll downhill. Or revisit the 'trees', for instance - are they dendritic structures of large scale sphere-chains? It all sure seems biotic, and very *alien*, whether truly biotic or not. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 02:15:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA13688; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 02:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 02:13:55 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Fossil found in Opportunity Foto? Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:12:23 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"d4Vk72.0.qL3.Z7rA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53060 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Thursday, 2004 February 12 16:50 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: Fossil found in Opportunity Foto? > > > I think the whole damn place is a fossil. See my other post on > using ZIP to evaluate the complexity content. I haven't used it excellent idea! But I imagine that the spherules probably throw the curve quite a bit. If I can test the idea, I will. There at least should be a directionality factor seen in rotated images. > as I don't know what I would be looking for as a comparison or > baseline, but visually things seen from the level of images > detailed enough to see the blueberries on down to the micrographs > all have a common characteristic: a similar level of random > regularity involving spheres. Chains of spheres show up in the > matrix at larger scales, then you look close and seem 'em again > all over the intervening material at a smaller scale. The > blueberries appear to be made of formations of stranded > micro-spheres, and now even the semi-loose sand wants to get into > the act. Chains of spheres making larger spheres, and chains of > spheres across scale. Spiralling, straight runs, wavy curves, fractals. > > I think Horace is right too, there seem to be hints and bits of > similar rocks at the Spirit site. I was also looking at orbital > shots of various areas since pondering these recent photos, and > some of the structures large enough to be seen in them are > beginning to make sense from this perspective. How about the > recent Mars Express shot of the canyon with the bluish stuff in > the bottom of the ravine? Blueberries roll downhill. Or revisit > the 'trees', for instance - are they dendritic structures of > large scale sphere-chains? It all sure seems biotic, and very > *alien*, whether truly biotic or not. The trees, an interpreter colleague informed me, were rock outcrops (hematite laden). He said this while under the impression the fotos were terrestrial aerial fotos. This was back when we first saw those here on Vortex-L, back in 2000 if I remember correctly. > > - Rick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 02:44:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA27270; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 02:42:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 02:42:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:42:37 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Fossil found in Opportunity Foto? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA27240 Resent-Message-ID: <"3s_U12.0.2g6.iYrA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53061 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh, one more thing - the Antartic Mars meteorite - chains of little spheres again. Similar bacteria formations are supposedly found in mud in Australia. Maybe they started out like that and then evolved into large-structure building organisms on Mars. I wonder how close to the Martian structures the rocks are at the African mine where the hematite/goethite(?) spheres were found. I've google-image'd on the various minerals, and some outcrop photos look pretty similar with the color and layering, but nothing with chains of spheres so far... And what's up with the spectroscopic data??? - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 03:15:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA08703; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:11:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:11:50 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: Heffner Lichen at Gusev Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:10:09 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"3F1lp3.0.s72.rzrA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53062 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I promise to get back on topic someday, but this is too rich. JPL must be in total chaos, judging by their cessation of info, they must be in a panic about how to present it. and stuff like this can't help much: http://www.explorecraft.com/heffner_lichen.htm -->> Horace, see your lichen in a better light in Gusev <<-- (assuming, I realize, that it is even the same stuff, but in the Spirit of speculation, why not?) > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Thursday, 2004 February 12 11:15 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: crushed lichen > > > Attached is a jpeg of the rock crushed into the suposed lichen, hopefully > showing the stalks. I hope it is small enough to make its way through > vortex. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 08:15:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA10422; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:12:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:12:58 -0800 Message-ID: <20040212132611.92042.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:26:11 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Novel use for ZIP utility: test Mars fossils! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"mbaqU1.0.oY2.AOwA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53063 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: of course, thats based on tests with EARTH fossils. its LIKELY to hold true, but not neccesarily, with non terran life. --- Rick Monteverde wrote: > The degree of complexity of an image determines how > much you can > compress it with a file compression utility. Can > that help you > determine if a stromatolite formation was created by > microbes or not? > If the image is of biotic forms like stromatolites > formed by > microbes, it will be more compressible than an image > of similar > abiotic formations - according to Corsetti and > Storrie-Lombardi in a > recent Astrobiology article: > > http://www.liebertpub.com/AST/default1.asp > > ...takes you to a page where you'll see a 'free > samples' logo. Go > there and get Issue #4 (Winter) 2003, it's the first > article. > Available in PDF and SVG. Other interesting articles > relevant to the > findings on Mars abound. 2001 through 2003 all free > online! > > - Rick __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 08:41:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA29730; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:37:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:37:36 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:42:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Heffner Lichen at Gusev Resent-Message-ID: <"hxPIv2.0.OG7.GlwA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53064 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:10 PM 2/12/4, explorecraft wrote: >I promise to get back on topic someday, > but this is too rich. >JPL must be in total chaos, > judging by their cessation of info, > they must be in a panic about how to present it. > > and stuff like this can't help much: > > http://www.explorecraft.com/heffner_lichen.htm > >-->> Horace, see your lichen in a better light in Gusev <<-- > >(assuming, I realize, that it is even the same stuff, > but in the Spirit of speculation, why not?) Yep, we are piling speculation upon speculation, but it sure is fun. A completely reasonable thing to do when presented with photos of an alien world! What a great time to be alive! The stuff you circle looks different, but highly structured for sure. It is different because the white heads are missing. Some other places in the photo do show stalks with light heads though, so maybe it is a mixed species, or maybe it is newly formed (or old and dead) or a mixed species or a different species or something. Interesting that it does not form a complete crust there. Maybe because of more water present when formed? I figure the crust forming capability must be a survival technique. All water must be normally deep in the ground. Water vapor must make its way to the surface through porous material. A closed airtight crust would trap and even possibly condense the water underneath itself. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 10:28:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA14943; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:24:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:24:29 -0800 Message-ID: <009701c3f195$46b9aae0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Occam and Cold Fusion Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:23:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0094_01C3F152.38427E80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"TNHqk2.0.Rf3.TJyA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53065 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01C3F152.38427E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of Occam, how do we apply it to the following circumstances: A cold fusion experiment is run for several days and produces = significant OU heat. At the end of the experiment a certain amount of = helium is found. It so happens that the amount of helium found = corresponds roughly to the amount of excess heat that was produced if we = assume that each helium nucleus released 24 MeV of mass/energy to the = experiment. During the experiment a sensitive GM monitor was used to = measure radiation. Nothing unusual over 25 keV was noticed. Does Occam dictate that because the helium is found in rough = correspondence to the excess energy produced, then that implies that = D+D> He + 24 MeV is responsible, even though no high energy photons are = seen? or... is there another simpler explanation or one that fits all the = facts better? or... are we overlooking something very obvious, i.e. the likelihood = that there a another measurement that should have been taken that could = have resolved the issue, so that we don't have to rationalize the = missing high-energy photons? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01C3F152.38427E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking of Occam, how do we apply it to the following = circumstances:
 
A cold fusion experiment is run for several days and produces = significant=20 OU heat. At the end of the experiment a certain amount of helium is = found. It so=20 happens that the amount of helium found corresponds roughly to the = amount of=20 excess heat that was produced if we assume that each helium=20 nucleus released 24 MeV of mass/energy to the experiment. During = the=20 experiment a sensitive GM monitor was used to measure radiation. Nothing = unusual=20 over 25 keV was noticed.
 
Does Occam dictate that because the helium is found in rough = correspondence=20 to the excess energy produced, then that implies that D+D> He + 24 = MeV is=20 responsible, even though no high energy photons are seen?
 
or... is there another simpler explanation or one that fits all the = facts=20 better?
 
or... are we overlooking something very obvious, i.e. the = likelihood=20 that there a another measurement that should have been taken that = could=20 have resolved the issue, so that we don't have to rationalize the = missing=20 high-energy photons?
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0094_01C3F152.38427E80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 11:07:15 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA12225; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:03:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:03:00 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040212135441.01cb4bf0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:02:45 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Occam and Cold Fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oIh321.0.z-2.atyA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53066 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: "Speaking of Occam, how do we apply it to the following circumstances: A cold fusion experiment is run for several days and produces significant OU heat. At the end of the experiment a certain amount of helium is found. It so happens that the amount of helium found corresponds roughly to the amount of excess heat that was produced if we assume that each helium nucleus released 24 MeV of mass/energy to the experiment. . . . Does Occam dictate that because the helium is found in rough correspondence to the excess energy produced, then that implies that D+D> He + 24 MeV is responsible, even though no high energy photons are seen? . . ." No, it does not. Occam's razor does not apply to this question -- yet. It would only be invoked after two or more competing hypotheses are developed, and they all appear to explain of the present data equally well. Occam tells you nothing about how to solve any particular problem; it only indicates how to pick out the best competing solution. ". . . or... is there another simpler explanation or one that fits all the facts better?" I wouldn't know if there is a simpler explanation, but if there is, Occam's razor tells you to pick that one. Any solution that "fits all the facts better" is preferable, even if it happens to be more complex. A "better fit" trumps Occam. Many wonderfully simple theories have been replaced by complicated ones that fit the facts better, especially in biology. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 11:46:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA27572; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:41:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:41:13 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:45:34 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fossil found in Opportunity Foto? Resent-Message-ID: <"6Lcb13.0.lk6.PRzA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53067 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:03 PM 2/12/4, explorecraft wrote: >Don't know for sure, > but it needs some looking at: >http://www.explorecraft.com/mars_fossil.htm > >note the size progression, > and the fact that it appears > to be in a zone I labelled as 'turbulent sedimentation', > being one the zones in the four-layer cycle > where the sediment is either less well cemented, > or eroded due to being deposited with matter (biomass?) > which subsequently decayed away. Is the fossilthe brownish tubular plant-like thing in the hole? If this is a fossil then it may be evidence that the holes in the rocks are due to ancient root systems. The "roots" need not have been from plants, but rather could be from lichen. Lichen on earth is known to form root-like systems even in rocks. Such a large root system would be from a very large mass of linchen though! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 12:03:14 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA09436; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:58:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:58:09 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040212143904.01cb87c8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:58:06 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Occam and Cold Fusion and homing pigeons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hB2kM3.0.KJ2.GhzA01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53068 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me reiterate this a little. The question was: Does Occam dictate that because the helium is found in rough correspondence to the excess energy produced, *then that implies* that D+D> He + 24 MeV is responsible, even though no high energy photons are seen? . . ." Occam's principle cannot imply any such thing. It does not tell us there may or may not be a simpler solution lurking in the unknown. It offers no indication as to how complicated or simple potential solutions may turn out to be. All it says is: if two solutions emerge, all else being equal, you should select the simpler one. If Occam's razer told us: "there must be simpler solutions out there, keep looking!" then I suppose we would have rejected all of biology starting with Darwin, because with each new discovery and each passing year it grows more complicated and seemingly more ad hoc. Ditto subatomic particles. To give a concrete example recently discussed here, some time ago people concluded that birds navigate with some sort of built-in magnetic compass in their brain. That may indeed be true, and it certainly is a wonderfully simple, elegant, powerful hypothesis, that can explain amazing things such as birds that navigate over thousands of miles of open ocean. However, it turns out the full story is more complicated. In a recent study in England, homing pigeons were equipped with some sort of GPS gadgets or cell phones -- I do not recall which -- that recorded their paths. It turns out they navigate the same way I do. They look for a main road and they follow it back to an intersection near their nests, and then they follow other prominent landmarks. Perhaps they also use a magnetic compasses and/or the position of the sun, but in any case their method is complicated and ad hoc, not simple. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 12:29:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA29125; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:26:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:26:10 -0800 Message-ID: <00b101c3f1a6$4749f440$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040212135441.01cb4bf0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Occam and Cold Fusion Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:24:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA29087 Resent-Message-ID: <"n-ms-3.0.077.Y5-A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53069 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes: > I wouldn't know if there is a simpler explanation, but if there is, Occam's > razor tells you to pick that one. Any solution that "fits all the facts > better" is preferable, even if it happens to be more complex. A "better > fit" trumps Occam. Many wonderfully simple theories have been replaced by > complicated ones that fit the facts better, especially in biology. Yes. This is pretty much what I was getting at - the 'better fit' always trumping Occam - and in CF this all eventually winds it way back to the total lack of those pesky 24 MeV gammas... which would be very easy to detect if any were present. Without the 24 MeV gamma-ray itself - the physical photon, which is the only known signature of this rare type of fusion, then the corresponding 24 MeV of mass/energy may be 'just a number' - which is to say that without the gamma-ray itself, then all bets about actual D+D fusion of the type already known to physics are off. There remains that same amount of mass/energy that needs to be explained, and we see a lot of apparently violent but gamma-free 'cratering' in the SEM images... so what is the next simplest explanation under Occam that can explain everything? I suspect that almost everyone on this forum goes through this exercise periodically every time a new study comes out... but with wildly differing end results... so its pretty clear that we still don't have enough information to make an intelligent assessment... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 12:50:19 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA07852; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:44:56 -0800 Message-ID: <402BE5A4.3020706@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:44:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Fuzzy Mars Moqui Marbles Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FX0ww.0.ew1.8N-A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53070 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pull out those 3D glasses again for this one: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040212a/09-ml-5-post-B019R1.jpg which should make HH happy. They have his submerged ball in 3D! I swear those balls look like they have peach fuzz on 'em. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 13:53:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA29229; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:47:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:47:48 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Occam and Cold Fusion Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:46:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <009701c3f195$46b9aae0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <009701c3f195$46b9aae0$8837fea9@cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA29008 Resent-Message-ID: <"eO5fX3.0.d87.4I_A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53071 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:23:13 -0800: Hi, [snip] >or... are we overlooking something very obvious, i.e. the likelihood that there a another measurement that should have been taken that could have resolved the issue, so that we don't have to rationalize the missing high-energy photons? [snip] This leads me to reiterate a question I have posed earlier on this list - Why does neutrino anti-neutrino pair creation not occur as a method of disposing of excess energy in excited nuclei? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 14:26:18 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA25065; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:20:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:20:45 -0800 Message-ID: <001d01c3f1b6$5a003210$d55accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040212143904.01cb87c8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Occam and Cold Fusion and homing pigeons Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:19:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"CVUnt1.0.V76.ym_A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53072 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: . > > To give a concrete example recently discussed here, some time ago people > concluded that birds navigate with some sort of built-in magnetic compass > in their brain. That may indeed be true, and it certainly is a wonderfully > simple, elegant, powerful hypothesis, that can explain amazing things such > as birds that navigate over thousands of miles of open ocean. However, it > turns out the full story is more complicated. In a recent study in England, > homing pigeons were equipped with some sort of GPS gadgets or cell phones > -- I do not recall which -- that recorded their paths. It turns out they > navigate the same way I do. They look for a main road and they follow it > back to an intersection near their nests, and then they follow other > prominent landmarks. Perhaps they also use a magnetic compasses and/or the > position of the sun, but in any case their method is complicated and ad > hoc, not simple. Several decades ago, while at the Sarnoff research center, I attended a lecture on the navigation capabilities of homing pigeons. If you want to be complete, you have to include hummingbirds and Monarch Butterflies, which also do long distance navigation. The suite of sensory cues is quite complex and varied. Magnetic field sensing is only one. it has been fairly well established the some cells can create particles of magnetite, which is ferromagnetic, and thereby sense the local magnetic field. Even simple organisms use it to tell which way is up. Some birds can memorize the local star map from a brief look at the night sky; others sense polarized light and so can locate the sun position from any patch of blue sky. Westerly winds blowing over the western mountain ranges generate subsonic noise which can be heard for hundreds of miles. And of course, there are images of the local terrain. Biological sensing can be very sophisticated and far outside the range of human senses. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 14:40:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA02802; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:34:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:34:26 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040212155739.01cd1c50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:14:21 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Occam and Cold Fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oL9wU2.0.kh.oz_A01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53073 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: > > fit" trumps Occam. Many wonderfully simple theories have been replaced by > > complicated ones that fit the facts better, especially in biology. > > > Yes. This is pretty much what I was getting at - the 'better fit' always trumping Occam - and in CF this all eventually winds it way back to the total lack of those pesky 24 MeV gammas... which would be very easy to detect if any were present. Honestly, I do not see what this has to do with Occam's razor, but in any case I am sure there are no 24 MeV gammas. That was established during the first 15 minutes of CF research, back around 1985. See: the dead grad student problem. (Actually, the dead person in question would have been Stan Pons' son, not a grad student.) > Without the 24 MeV gamma-ray itself - the physical photon, which is the only known signature of this rare type of fusion, then the corresponding 24 MeV of mass/energy may be 'just a number' - which is to say that without the gamma-ray itself, then all bets about actual D+D fusion of the type already known to physics are off. I wouldn't know about this. But it seems impossible that helium should be commensurate yet this mass/energy balance is a coincidence. I suppose at some deep level the two reactions must have the same origin. I think Chris Tinsley expressed it best with his analogy comparing metabolism and combustion -- that is, burning sugar. A person in 1800 would find it very difficult to believe that these two reactions are fundamentally the same, yet they are. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 16:42:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA10061; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:34:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:34:36 -0800 Message-ID: <013401c3f1c8$e8174c20$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <009701c3f195$46b9aae0$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: Occam and Cold Fusion Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:32:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA09942 Resent-Message-ID: <"kewbq3.0.5T2.Rk1B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53074 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, > Why does neutrino anti-neutrino pair creation not occur as a method of disposing of excess energy in excited nuclei? Try this answer: In moderately excited nuclei where the excess energy is mediated by the neutron, and assuming that the particle conservation laws which govern particle decays are in effect: the neutron can only emit a proton, electron and an antineutrino - no neutrino allowed - as the proton satisfies the conservation of baryon number, but the emergence of the electron unaccompanied would violate conservation of lepton number. The third particle must be an electron antineutrino only to satisfy lepton number conservation. The electron has lepton number 1, and the antineutrino has lepton number -1. However if an atomic collision were violent enough to produce the whole subatomic soup - quarks gluons and the whole shebang, then you might get this kind of pair creation as some bosons can decay into neutrino anti-neutrino pairs, I believe. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 17:53:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA17246; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:48:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:48:34 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:52:54 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Long martian filament Resent-Message-ID: <"ko0Rj1.0.QD4.np2B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53075 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Sol 19 microscopic images from Opportunity show the lichen mat in good focus, especially in the row 1, column 4 image. Lots of the little stalks with white tips ("matches") are visible. Most unusal is a filament clearly visible in the row 1 columns 3 and 4 photos, but not visible in the row 1 columns 1 an 2 photos. The thread location in the column 4 photo is from 754, 408 to 885,304. Stunning! I suppose they'll say it was part of the airbag. The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 18:04:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA26382; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:00:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:00:44 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:05:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Long martian filament Resent-Message-ID: <"KVaDw2.0.AS6.C_2B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53076 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The subject filament is just below the fairly large rock in the upper right hand corner of the Sol 19 microscopic images from Opportunity. The filament is clearly visible in the row 1; columns 3 and 4 photos, but not visible in the row 1; columns 1 an 2 photos. The thread location in the column 4 photo is from 754, 408 to 885,304. The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 18:25:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA04880; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:20:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:20:34 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:25:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Long martian filament Resent-Message-ID: <"3i5AN1.0.BC1.oH3B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53077 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The JPL site seems to have stopped transmitting the large Sol 19 microscopic images from Opportunity. I saved the row 1; column 4 photo in case anyone wants a copy and the JPL site doesn't come back up with it. Gads, a conspiracy theory in the works? 8^) How easy it is to fall into that way of thinking. 8^) Maybe the sudden large amount of interest did it. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 18:27:59 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA07396; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:24:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:24:09 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:28:25 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fuzzy Mars Moqui Marbles Resent-Message-ID: <"72CrI1.0.Tp1.8L3B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53078 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:44 PM 2/12/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Pull out those 3D glasses again for this one: > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040212a/09-ml-5- >post-B019R1.jpg > >which should make HH happy. They have his submerged ball in 3D! I wish I had 3D glasses. I had a pair for many years and then threw them out. > >I swear those balls look like they have peach fuzz on 'em. Hmmm.. large fuzzy balls everywhere you look ... must be a variety of tribble! (As in the cute little fir ball tribbles on the Enterprise that multiplied so fast they clogged the air ducts.) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 19:34:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA06686; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:25:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:25:58 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1135479482==_============" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:30:14 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Anderson's Lichen found by Opportunity Resent-Message-ID: <"yMO631.0.Qe1.6F4B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53079 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135479482==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" See several strands of lichen clinging to rock in lower left corner of JPL photo, located at 890,850, in Sol 19 Opportuity microscopic images. (See attached JPG for a tiny clip.) 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2004 19:43:53 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:48:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Anderson Lichen Resent-Message-ID: <"3OKIM.0.zj3.vV4B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53080 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Best image is at See small rock at the bottom right, at pixel coordinates roughly 890,850 (out of 1024,1024). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 21:38:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA13571; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:35:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:35:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:35:22 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Long martian filament Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"i0v4n.0._J3.r86B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53081 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just a cat hair. They get in _everywhere_, you know. They cried airbag on that 'crabclaw' too. That was before we saw the other crabclaws in the wierdly contorted sediment structure. Sometimes what you see is what you get. - Rick >The Sol 19 microscopic images from Opportunity show the lichen mat in good >focus, especially in the row 1, column 4 image. Lots of the little stalks >with white tips ("matches") are visible. > >Most unusal is a filament clearly visible in the row 1 columns 3 and 4 >photos, but not visible in the row 1 columns 1 an 2 photos. The thread >location in the column 4 photo is from 754, 408 to 885,304. Stunning! > >I suppose they'll say it was part of the airbag. > > >The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: > > > > > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 21:52:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA21189; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:50:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:50:16 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Long martian filament Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:48:40 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"QHTqh2.0.rA5.OM6B01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53082 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just finished uploading a zoom on this "airbag thread" using it as comparison against the various fibrous matting examples from both Gusev and Meridiani of Heffner Lichen at: http://www.explorecraft.com/heffner_lichen.htm as well as posting Horace's pick foto, which I couldn't really improve on Anyone else notice a tendency toward the parallelism evident in some of the 'fibrous clusters'? It appears in many fotos, where what I pick to be the lichen growth in parallel rows, which are just as often wiggly as straight. cheers > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Friday, 2004 February 13 12:35 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Long martian filament > > > Just a cat hair. They get in _everywhere_, you know. > > They cried airbag on that 'crabclaw' too. That was before we saw > the other crabclaws in the wierdly contorted sediment structure. > Sometimes what you see is what you get. > > - Rick > > >The Sol 19 microscopic images from Opportunity show the lichen > mat in good > >focus, especially in the row 1, column 4 image. Lots of the > little stalks > >with white tips ("matches") are visible. > > > >Most unusal is a filament clearly visible in the row 1 columns 3 and 4 > >photos, but not visible in the row 1 columns 1 an 2 photos. The thread > >location in the column 4 photo is from 754, 408 to 885,304. Stunning! > > > >I suppose they'll say it was part of the airbag. > > > > > >The raw images from the mars rovers can be located via: > > > > > > > > > > > >Regards, > > > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 03:21:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA00371; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:13:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:13:55 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1135451423==_============" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:17:53 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Long martian filament Resent-Message-ID: <"7Qaz82.0.l5.n5BB01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53083 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135451423==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:48 PM 2/13/4, explorecraft wrote: >Just finished uploading a zoom on this "airbag thread" > using it as comparison against the > various fibrous matting examples > from both Gusev and Meridiani > of Heffner Lichen at: > > http://www.explorecraft.com/heffner_lichen.htm > >as well as posting Horace's pick foto, > which I couldn't really improve on > >Anyone else notice a tendency toward the parallelism > evident in some of the 'fibrous clusters'? >It appears in many fotos, > where what I pick to be the lichen growth > in parallel rows, which are just as often wiggly as straight. > >cheers Thanks for posting my "pins" image on your webpage that point out the matchstick features. >From the above text I have the fealing you looked at the photos where the filament ("cat hair") does not show up. I have attached a somewhat grainy blow-up of about 1/3 of the filament. It was cut from: The filament location in that photo is from 754, 408 to 885,304. I cut the rightmost third of it. As you can see, it is not really a bunch of the balls strung together, and it is very white. It looks like a scratch on a negative. However, that same "scratch" shows up on several photos but not on others, so it must be a real feature. A Rick says, it looks just like a cat hair. It is about 3 mm long. It does notlook like any feature I have seen in any other photo. --============_-1135451423==_============ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="hair.JPG" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="hair.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEASABIAAD//gAaTWFydGlhbiBGaWxhbWVudCBTZWdtZW50/9sA QwABAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB/8AACwgArwCnAQEiAP/EAB8AAAMBAQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAcI CQYKBQMEAQILAP/EAD8QAAEDAgUCBAMGBAYCAQUAAAECAwQFEQAGEiExB0EIE1FhInGB FDKRobHBFSPR8AkWJDNC4UPxYhcYUlNj/9oACAEBAAA/AObCn+GjMiFKkFE3TH/nkeQd /KGu33OLDtvg5dI6qKDVf4JKaUh3z0Qyp1KkHU5pQDuAOSO1sU9y50AqtRpMWstPrU3K jpkpSktnYA+iTYfCf748Wt+EjMnVU/Y6e5JbVTjZZQlBv5X8y/xIPYgbbfjfCa+IrwbZ qyPBYVJVLXpSPvNp4Cj6IH4+nc4kl1ey5OyvUqYw6y84VS2G/wDaWTu7pH3Ujg837d8G akZQqVVo9OeTGlJT9nbVfyVWsAT3SeNt/wAsaqlZWejSGWXnPKK1oR/MKUEEn0UB3/L3 2wT8w9I5MqkBxiYl0uRtWltxtZuQSRZIP4Wv+uBf0p8L2Y805n8tsymUmoAay2EptrAv 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HlNPPLHnJDh2UO6gf797YaPNmef8oR/scSCyEvtholDTQ2UOeBe1uPw74U7NNSar1QZm uxWkqQ8HN20Xvva1hYHf+zwQssV1Lrbcb7K2AEhsHy2+wtf14H6bYNdMz+/kSnSmo0dL glMkqshFgV2Vb4rbA7cfK1zgStzv/qVmqnLlNhgpnC2wG41JH3Rfj6e3JxTjKfh3o9Zy yHnnm9X2FtQ1eYT9xHG2x7X+fY3wm3VLoHBoecKVLjT1o+zzUr0NuvIBshfYWHpzf2GL H+C+MXssSWnXFL8iMGwVkr2Q62i+59B6evrj/9k= --============_-1135451423==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regards, Horace Heffner --============_-1135451423==_============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 03:35:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA06011; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:32:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:32:52 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1135450282==_============" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 02:36:54 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Long martian filament Resent-Message-ID: <"F6osY3.0.rT1.YNBB01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53084 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135450282==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just wrote in this thread: "From the above text I have the fealing you looked at the photos where the filament ("cat hair") does not show up. I have attached a somewhat grainy blow-up of about 1/3 of the filament. It was cut from: The filament location in that photo is from 754, 408 to 885,304. I cut the rightmost third of it." This was silly of me! I didn't see that you had actually included a picture of the filament AKA "fibrous thread" AKA "cat hair" at: I thought you were refering to the long contiguous clumps of lichen stems that appear in places along the filament's path. --============_-1135450282==_============ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="hair.JPG" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="hair.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEASABIAAD//gAaTWFydGlhbiBGaWxhbWVudCBTZWdtZW50/9sA QwABAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB/8AACwgArwCnAQEiAP/EAB8AAAMBAQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAcI CQYKBQMEAQILAP/EAD8QAAEDAgUCBAMGBAYCAQUAAAECAwQFEQAGEiExB0EIE1FhInGB FDKRobHBFSPR8AkWJDNC4UPxYhcYUlNj/9oACAEBAAA/AObCn+GjMiFKkFE3TH/nkeQd /KGu33OLDtvg5dI6qKDVf4JKaUh3z0Qyp1KkHU5pQDuAOSO1sU9y50AqtRpMWstPrU3K jpkpSktnYA+iTYfCf748Wt+EjMnVU/Y6e5JbVTjZZQlBv5X8y/xIPYgbbfjfCa+IrwbZ 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text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:54:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Microscopic image scale Resent-Message-ID: <"IXtCT.0.pv6.TWCB01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53085 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the microscopic imager has no zoom, then it appears most of the photos have about a bit over 4 cm width for 1024 pixels. That is because the 4.2 cm (if I remember correctly) rock grinding circle just about fits in the image. If so, a 100 pixels is about 4 mm. The "cat hair" AKA "airbag" filament is about 180 pixels long, so should be about 7.2 mm long. The matchstick stalk is about 12 pixels long, so is about a half mm long. Does this sound about right? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 05:33:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA14450; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:29:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:29:52 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:34:12 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Microscopic image scale Resent-Message-ID: <"JsITM3.0.dX3.E5DB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53087 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Using the Spirit microscopic images of the rock grinding hole, which is 45.5 mm in diameter, the radius can be measured at about 450 pixels. This means that there are 450 pixels per 22.75 mm, or 19.78/mm, or about 20 pixels per mm, or 100 pixels per 4 mm. If the microscopic imager has no zoom, then it appears most of the photos have about 4 cm width for the 1024 pixels. The "cat hair" AKA "airbag" filament is about 180 pixels long, so should be about 7.2 mm long. The matchstick stalk is about 12 pixels long, so is about a half mm long. Does this sound about right? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 05:38:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA08649; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:26:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:26:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <402CCFF2.7070202@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:24:02 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuzzy Mars Moqui Marbles References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OG0Vw.0.472.92DB01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53086 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >I wish I had 3D glasses. I had a pair for many years and then threw them out. > I have several, send me your snailmail address. >Hmmm.. large fuzzy balls everywhere you look ... must be a variety of >tribble! > But what are they eating? OH! The LICHEN! It is quite curious that some of the balls seem to be hanging off the sides of Stone Mountain with no obvious means of support. Are they "some kind of mushroom"? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 06:07:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA22448; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 06:04:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 06:04:06 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:08:26 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fuzzy Mars Moqui Marbles Resent-Message-ID: <"wo9Tp1.0.dU5.KbDB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53088 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:24 AM 2/13/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>I wish I had 3D glasses. I had a pair for many years and then threw them out. >> > >I have several, send me your snailmail address. Wow! Thanks! > >>Hmmm.. large fuzzy balls everywhere you look ... must be a variety of >>tribble! >> > >But what are they eating? OH! The LICHEN! > >It is quite curious that some of the balls seem to be hanging off the >sides of Stone Mountain with no obvious means of support. Are they >"some kind of mushroom"? The tribble comment of course was only for fun. I think you had it right about the (blueberry) balls being concretions. They must be ancient, since they are imbedded in the rock, assuming of course it IS rock! The exquisite detail in the spheres leads me to believe, however, that they were nucleated by something organic. A good guess at exactly what nucleated them I think is fruiting bodies, the sometimes hard cased sacks produced by lichen for reproduction. (See www.lichen.com). It must have been a much larger species than what we (hopefully) are seeing on the surface at the moment though. I think the balls (blueberries?) hang on to stone mountain because they are concreted to the rock and were part of the rock. All just hopefully logical guesses. One thing that bothers me is that there are occasional little piles of what appears to be a white fibrous substance, e.g. at 340, 474 in I can't tell if it is rock or organic, but it sure looks organic. It would certainly likely be frozen if organic though! It makes me wonder if at least some of the little (about 3 mm - 6mm) perfectly spherical white balls are organic, not rock, i.e. are completely different from the "blueberries" which seem to me likely to be concretions. There may be some large living species of lichen around somewhere upwind. A crater would accumulate their fruiting bodies, especially spherical ones which should roll in the wind pretty well. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 07:40:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA19496; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:34:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:34:14 -0800 From: Baronvolsung@aol.com Message-ID: <154.2daddda8.2d5e4841@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:33:21 EST Subject: Re: [Roundtable7] Principia Cybernetica To: Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, aelewis@provide.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: Baronvolsung@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1076686401" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5007 Resent-Message-ID: <"P4Vqa1.0.Zm4.svEB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53089 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1076686401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have developed a cybernetic (body-machine interface) model below of the body, mind, and spirit in relation to society, which can be encoded into a computer program to create a cybernetic operating and networking system between the natural and artificial worlds by using the basic principles or principia of cybernetic theory developed by Norbert Wiener. There are at least 9 energetic natural layers that emanate around any body, mind and spirit, and at least 1 or more machine made artificial energetic layers as shown below: Layer 1 Nuclear & Subnuclear (Thousands of Nuclear Functions & Holographic Energy maps for each nuclear and subnuclear crystal matrix) Layer 2 Biochemical (Thousands of Chemical Functions, Flow Charts and Crystal Maps) Layer 3 Genetic and Subcellular (Thousands of Natural Spiritual and Amino Acid Functions, and Flow Charts) Layer 4 Cellular (A few hundred different cellular types, flow charts, and networks) Layer 5 Organs and Body (A few dozen organs, functions, flow charts, and a few hundred different body types) Layer 6 Mind, Emotions and Brain (Billions of mental energy maps, flow charts, and circuits, thousands of emotional energy maps and circuits, and thousands of brain, emotion, and mind functions) Layer 7 Spiritual (Billions of energy maps, flow charts, and circuits of Conscious and Unconscious Photonic Holographic Energy Memories, and thousands of different spiritual energy types per species and culture) Layer 8 Family (Thousands of family functions & flow charts, for the Spiritual Consciousness) Layer 9 Local and Global Communities and Cultures (Thousands of local and global functions & flow charts for the Spiritual Consciousness) Layer 10 Artificial Machine Made Cybernetic Electro-Scalar Wave Energies which simulate the natural energies, functions, and flow charts of the 9 layers listed above, and which may be modeled, viewed, generated, and projected on an object by artificial intelligence computers with sensors and beam devices, which store simulated functions and energy patterns as holographic energy patterns in a holographic database. Each of the 9 natural layers above has its own natural energy aura and communication system which communicates much like computer network with the other layers and the local and global environment by means of biochemicals such a pheromones, and calcium, and by means of natural electroscalar wave communication systems. The natural communication system is mostly limited in scope to the body and within a few miles in the environment around the body. The natural communication system is controlled by the conscious thoughts and subconscious holographic energy patterns in the spirit, body and mind sometimes inherited form ancestors to cause the genes, amino acids, and cells to unwind and form properly in the body. Each cell of the body takes its own energy picture every split second of the local environment to direct its actions. The mind may also communicate by means of dreaming which communicates back and forwards in time and throughout the local community in a natural dream energy world. Artificial cybernetic body-machine interface computer systems used in mind control projects may be constructed which simulate all of the billions of body, mind, and spirit layers, and functions listed above which is very similar to a computer operating system combined with an artificial intelligence virtual reality gaming world. The artificial cybernetic energy layers projected on a body by means of atomic energy beam scalar wave lasers may simulate and control any other natural energy layer to cause the natural body to have artificial memories, and artificial holographic physical forms that override the natural physical, mental, and spiritual body formations. Each natural body, mind, spiritual, and social function may be mapped onto a flow chart which is then encoded on a computer circuit or into a computer program to simulate, override, and control the natural operations of the functions. Artificial cybernetic body-machine systems as described above may connect persons and their bodies, mind, and spirit over a global communication system which may span between planets, timelines, back and forewords in time, and be placed into artificial realty worlds. We presently have the technologies to build the above systems which are being used presently by global governmental mind control projects to control history and to control and posses the bodies of almost all world leaders, government agents, and prominent celebrities and business persons form the beginning to the end of time. We need to develop new legal systems which monitor the local environment in each town and for each person publicly so that each person and local town can control the energy patterns in their community and around their body, mind, and spirit locally per public law, which is not to difficult to do, since we only need the local police stations to publicly make energy maps of the local town available to each citizen when requested due to a claimed mind control or energy attack. According to information that I have received, many police stations and local governmental buildings under the control of the national government already use satellites to view their town's energy patterns secretly which are connected to global governmental mind control projects. We only need to make the use of the remote viewing technologies legal and public locally and to enforce laws to protect each citizen and town locally from criminal and corrupt governmental use of remote viewing, control and mind and spirit control technologies. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com -------------------------------1076686401 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have developed a cybernetic (body-machine interface) model below= of the body, mind, and spirit in relation to society, which can be encoded=20= into a computer program to create a cybernetic operating and networking = ;system between the natural and artificial worlds by using the basic pr= inciples or principia of cybernetic theory developed by Norbert Wiener. = ;
 
There are at least 9 energetic natural layers that emanate around=20= any body, mind and spirit, and at least 1 or more machine mad= e artificial energetic layers as shown below:
 
Layer 1 Nuclear & Subnuclear (Thousands of Nuclear Functions &=20= Holographic Energy
              &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;              map= s for each nuclear and subnuclear crystal matrix)
Layer 2 Biochemical (Thousands of Chemical Functions, Flow&nb= sp;Charts and Crystal Maps)
Layer 3 Genetic and Subcellular (Thousands of Natural Spiritual and Ami= no Acid Functions,
              &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;  and Flow Charts)
Layer 4 Cellular (A few hundred different cellular types, flow cha= rts, and networks)
Layer 5 Organs and Body (A few dozen organs, functions, flow charts,&nb= sp;and a few hundred            = ;                = ;                = ; different body types)
Layer 6 Mind, Emotions and Brain (Billions of mental ene= rgy maps, flow charts, and          =                 =                 =                 =        circuits, thousands of emotional energy maps= and               &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;             circuits, and=20= thousands of brain, emotion, and
              &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;              &nb= sp;       mind functions)
Layer 7 Spiritual (Billions of energy maps, flow charts, and circu= its of Conscious and
              &n= bsp;             Unconscious Ph= otonic Holographic Energy Memories, and thousands of
              &n= bsp;             different = ;spiritual energy types per species and culture)
Layer 8 Family (Thousands of family functions & flow charts,&n= bsp;for the Spiritual
              &n= bsp;         Consciousness)
Layer 9 Local and Global Communities and Cultures (Thousands of local a= nd global
              &n= bsp;         functions & flow charts for t= he Spiritual Consciousness)
Layer 10 Artificial Machine Made Cybernetic Electro-Scalar Wave En= ergies which simulate
              &n= bsp; the natural energies, functions, and flow charts of the 9 layers l= isted above, and             &n= bsp;   which may be modeled, viewed, generated, and projected= on an object by
              &n= bsp; artificial intelligence computers with sensors and beam devices, w= hich store
              &n= bsp; simulated functions and energy patterns as holographic energy patterns=20= in a
            = ;    holographic database.
 
Each of the 9 natural layers above has its own natural energy aura and=20= communication system which communicates much like computer network with the=20= other layers and the local and global environment by means of biochemicals s= uch a pheromones, and calcium, and by means of natural electroscalar wave co= mmunication systems. The natural communication system is mostly limited in s= cope to the body and within a few miles in the environment ar= ound the body.  The natural communication system is controlled by the c= onscious thoughts and subconscious holographic energy patterns in the spirit= , body and mind sometimes inherited form ancestors to cause the genes,=20= amino acids, and cells to unwind and form properly in the body.  Each c= ell of the body takes its own energy picture every split second of the local= environment to direct its actions.  The mind may also communicate by m= eans of dreaming which communicates back and forwards in time and throughout= the local community in a natural dream energy world.
 
Artificial cybernetic body-machine interface computer systems used in m= ind control projects may be constructed which simulate all of the billions o= f body, mind, and spirit layers, and functions listed above which is very si= milar to a computer operating system combined with an artificial intelligenc= e virtual reality gaming world.  The artificial cybernetic energy layer= s projected on a body by means of atomic energy beam scalar wave lasers may=20= simulate and control any other natural energy layer to cause the natural bod= y to have artificial memories, and artificial holographic physical forms tha= t override the natural physical, mental, and spiritual body formations. = ; Each natural body, mind, spiritual, and social function may be mapped= onto a flow chart which is then encoded on a computer circuit or into a com= puter program to simulate, override, and control the natural opera= tions of the functions.   
 
Artificial cybernetic body-machine systems as described above may conne= ct persons and their bodies, mind, and spirit over a global commun= ication system which may span between planets, timelines, back and forewords= in time, and be placed into artificial realty worlds. 
 
We presently have the technologies to build the above systems which are= being used presently by global governmental mind control projects to contro= l history and to control and posses the bodies of almost all world lead= ers, government agents, and prominent celebrities and business persons&= nbsp;form the beginning to the end of time.   We need to develop n= ew legal systems which monitor the local environment in each town and for ea= ch person publicly so that each person and local town can control the energy= patterns in their community and around their body, mind, and spirit locally= per public law, which is not to difficult to do, since we only need the loc= al police stations to publicly make energy maps of the local town available=20= to each citizen when requested due to a claimed mind control or energy attac= k. According to information that I have received, many police stat= ions and local governmental buildings under the control of the national gove= rnment already use satellites to view their town's energy patterns secr= etly which are connected to global governmental mind control projects. =  We only need to make the use of the remote viewing technologies legal=20= and public locally and to enforce laws to protect each citizen and town loca= lly from criminal and corrupt governmental use of remote viewing, control an= d mind and spirit control technologies. 
 
Baron Vo= n Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com= \emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.co= m\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
= Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foun= dation Trust at www.rhfweb.com
-------------------------------1076686401-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 08:58:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA29614; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:52:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:52:15 -0800 Message-ID: <006b01c3f251$8a059400$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040212135441.01cb4bf0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Occam and Cold Fusion Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:50:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA29512 Resent-Message-ID: <"YYqbZ.0.dE7._2GB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53090 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes: > Does Occam dictate that because the helium is found in rough correspondence > to the excess energy produced, then that implies that D+D> He + 24 MeV is > responsible, even though no high energy photons are seen? . . ." No, it does not [snip] Then, if we move to the next logical step and look at the situation of fusion ash showing up in experiments but with a lack of gamma radiation, and begin at that point with a clean sheet (no prior assumptions). At that point we can start to frame the alternative 'generalized' mechanics of the process more logically... Basically, either there must have been: 1) a fusion event of ground-state reactants followed by a gradual release of energy, or 2) a gradual release of energy from the reactants followed by the fusion event. Note that even though science cannot yet demonstrate conclusively that either of these two choices could have transpired, there are plausible well-developed theories that describe either outcome to the satisfaction of many. Here is where I think Occam could come in. I predict that you will disagree. IMHO choice 2) looks preferable under Occam because when energy is released from reactants prior to the fusion event, then that release-process itself serves a double function in that it makes the fusion event itself more probable (because below ground-state reactants can approach each other more closely) - unlike the situation in choice 1). where from everything we know about deuterium fusion, the Lawson criteria of ground state reactants must still apply. IOW choice 1) leaves difficult problems unanswered even if we accept the facilitating theory that a relatively gradual release of fusion energy (Chubb hypothesis) is possible. Jones Of course, it should be mentioned that the two alternatives generalized processes above are not necessarily mutually exclusive... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 11:02:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25477; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:50:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:50:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:49:26 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: SFE 2004 French Electrostatics Soc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/Mixed; BOUNDARY="=====================_8332167==_" Resent-Message-ID: <"yNf2V1.0.0E6.enHB01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53091 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --=====================_8332167==_ Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE http://labo.univ-poitiers.fr/informations-lea/SFE/web_angl/index.htm The bi annual meeting of the French Electrostatics Society will be held at the University of Poitiers (France) just after the International Electrohydrodynamics Workshop which is planned on August 30 - 31. The goal of the biannual SFE meeting is to help people from industry and from academic institutions to meet and discuss, it is also to create the opportunity for young researchers to present their work and make contacts. The accepted full papers will be submitted to the journal of electrostatics ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:43:48 +0100 From: sfe2004 To: wehd5-sfe4@lea.univ-poitiers.fr Subject: SFE 2004 Chers Amis, Je suis heureux de vous transmettre la deuxi=E8me annonce de la 4=E8me conf= =E9rence SFE (fichier Annonce2_F.doc). Veuillez, s'il vous pla=EEt me renvoyer, le bulletin de participation le pl= us t=F4t possible (fichier Form_F.doc). [LARGE ATTACHMENT DELETED] Vous pouvez maintenant consulter le site web de la conf=E9rence : http://labo.univ-poitiers.fr/informations-lea/SFE/index.htm Deuxi=E8me Annonce 4=E8me Conf=E9rence SFE Poitiers, France Septembre 2 - 3, 2004 Amicalement G. Touchard Dear Friends, I am very pleased to send to you the second annoucement for the 4th SFE Meeting (file Annonce2_E.doc). Will you, please, send me back the tentative tittle form as soon as possibl= e (fichier Form_F.doc). [LARGE ATTACHMENT DELETED] You can now have a look to the web site of the conference : http://labo.univ-poitiers.fr/informations-lea/SFE/index.htm Second announcement 4th SFE Meeting Poitiers, France September 2 - 3, 2004 Sincerely Yours G. Touchard --=====================_8332167==_ Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-ID: Content-Description: Gerard Touchard Boulevard Marie & Pierre CURIE - Teleport 2 BP 30179 F86962 FUTUROSCOPE CEDEX FRANCE Tel + 33 (0) 549 49 69 32 Fax + 33 (0) 549 49 69 68 --=====================_8332167==_-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 13:30:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA03695; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:26:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:26:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:25:21 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA03553 Resent-Message-ID: <"3c5Md1.0.ev.o3KB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53092 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I copied two sections out of one of the recent microphotographs (the one with the long fiber). Both images are the same size in pixels. One is of the sand matrix, the other is out of the surface of one of the balls. The original image had some minor enhancement done before the clippings were taken: pixel interpolation and a little gaussian blur. I converted them to TIFF files and compressed then with Stuffit Deluxe ZIP compression. The ball image went down by 30%, and the sand by 12%. Based on that Astrobiology article, the ball has a greater chance of having biotic origin. But look at the two images: which would you guess would take more to compress? The ball surface looks much more complex to me, but it compresses 2 1/2 times easier. I wonder if theres something to this? Many more tests needed. Here are the raw tiff images, you can try it yourself or make your own image samples >> http://www.highsurf.com/images/ball-001.tiff http://www.highsurf.com/images/sand-001.tiff Try accessing the whole folder directly like this: http://www.highsurf.com/images/public/ ...to get a listing via web browser so you can download from the links. Right click a link if you use Windows, or drag to desktop (or right-click) if you use a Mac. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 14:51:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA13967; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:49:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:49:15 -0800 Message-ID: <402D5505.C1BAE4F8@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:51:49 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 13, 2004] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ikYf7.0.BQ3.gHLB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53093 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 13, 2004 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:22:39 -0500 From: "What's New" Reply-To: whatsnew@bobpark.org To: Akira Kawasaki WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 13 Feb 04 Washington, DC 1. NUCLEAR WEAPONS: THE LOOPHOLE IN THE NONPROLIFERATION TREATY. Abdul Qadeer Khan, "father" of Pakistan's bomb, and a popular national hero, had a little business on the side selling nuclear technology to countries that don't like us, like Iran, Libya and North Korea. In return for a pledge not to make nuclear weapons, the 1970 Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) allows such countries to develop "peaceful" atomic energy programs. But simply shortening the fuel cycle can turn a power reactor into a plutonium-239 factory, and enriching uranium fuel can be continued to produce weapons-grade uranium-235. President Bush wants nuclear powers to plug that "loophole" by only providing nuclear fuel to those countries that renounce both enrichment and reprocessing. It's a great plan, but its not clear why nonnuclear nations would agree to it. Libya renounced its nuclear program to get sanctions lifted, but some nuclear wannabes post beware-of-dog signs and keep their hands under the table to look like they've got a gun. 2. SPACE EXPLORATION: IT'S TIME FOR ANOTHER "AUGUSTINE REPORT." Among aerospace executives who addressed the first public hearing of President Bush's new space-exploration advisory commission was Norm Augustine, former Chairman of Lockheed Martin. 13 years ago, he chaired the Advisory Committee on the Future of the US Space Program. The 1990 "Augustine Report" ranked space science above space stations, aerospace planes, and a manned moon/Mars mission called for by George I (WN 14 Dec 90). Commission member Neil deGrasse Tyson, director of the Hayden Planetarium, asked about the cost of a Mars mission. Augustine said he hadn't done enough analysis, but if he had to bet, he'd bet that the entire $15B NASA budget for ten years would not be enough. Bush II is proposing an extra $1B per year for five years, plus $11B saved from scrapping the shuttle and finishing the space station. That's about $134B short. The recommendations of the "Augustine Report" should have been followed. We'd be far better off today. 3. CLONING: SCIENTISTS IN SOUTH KOREA CLONE MATURE HUMAN EMBRYOS. It was a year ago that Clonaid Inc., owned by Raelians, announced the cloning of baby Eve (WN 3 Jan 03). Raelians believe the first humans were cloned by space aliens. (Ever notice how funny other people's religions are?) That was a hoax, but this looks like a real breakthrough in therapeutic cloning. Embryonic stem cells with the same DNA as a donor mother were derived. In spite of great medical promise, it's already stirring up controversy in the Senate, which is deadlocked on whether to ban such research. But whatever we do in the U.S., it now seems inevitable that reproductive cloning of a human will happen sometime, somewhere. Immortality is an easy sell, and this is as close as you can get. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 17:11:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA19834; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:08:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:08:11 -0800 Message-ID: <20040214010807.76626.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:08:07 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"cAbx92.0.or4.wJNB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53094 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: perhaps complex, but in a repeatable fashion. what zip programs look for is repetition, wich gets compressed more. --- Rick Monteverde wrote: > I copied two sections out of one of the recent > microphotographs (the one with the long fiber). Both > images are the same size in pixels. One is of the > sand matrix, the other is out of the surface of one > of the balls. The original image had some minor > enhancement done before the clippings were taken: > pixel interpolation and a little gaussian blur. I > converted them to TIFF files and compressed then > with Stuffit Deluxe ZIP compression. The ball image > went down by 30%, and the sand by 12%. Based on that > Astrobiology article, the ball has a greater chance > of having biotic origin. But look at the two images: > which would you guess would take more to compress? > The ball surface looks much more complex to me, but > it compresses 2 1/2 times easier. I wonder if > theres something to this? Many more tests needed. > Here are the raw tiff images, you can try it > yourself or make your own image samples >> > > http://www.highsurf.com/images/ball-001.tiff > > http://www.highsurf.com/images/sand-001.tiff > > Try accessing the whole folder directly like this: > > http://www.highsurf.com/images/public/ > > ...to get a listing via web browser so you can > download from the links. Right click a link if you > use Windows, or drag to desktop (or right-click) if > you use a Mac. > > - Rick > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 18:10:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA15335; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:08:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:08:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040214010807.76626.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040214010807.76626.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:08:11 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA15213 Resent-Message-ID: <"jE5Fm1.0.Zl3.bCOB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53095 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:08 PM -0800 2/13/04, alexander hollins wrote: >perhaps complex, but in a repeatable fashion. what >zip programs look for is repetition, wich gets >compressed more That's the point! There's structure in there, but not so much that there is excessive repitition, and not so little it looks like random noise. It's that mix of pattern and chaos that hits a certain balance in organic forms that the compression program picks up. The comparison between organic and inorganic stromatolites in the article in Astrobiology is pretty amazing. The L-Z compression in gZIP could tell you which one was organically formed. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 01:18:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA15576; Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:15:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:15:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 23:15:38 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Interesting article on possible Mars fossils Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"DP5H-1.0.Kp3.BTUB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53096 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Before the rovers deployed. http://www.astrobio.net/news/article820.html Good links follow the article, but a few are dead. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 08:28:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA01385; Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:26:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:26:40 -0800 Message-ID: <000d01c3f317$255487c0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Valentine day treat Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:25:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3F2D4.16C4F160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"csfqB.0.bL.0naB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53097 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3F2D4.16C4F160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "It's the mother of all diamonds!" says a Harvard astronomer... http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/previous/latest.html And if someone on you Valentine day list is named Lucy, you might be = able to tell her honestly and straight from the heart that you found a = diamond weighing in a 10^34 carats... and it's being held in her = name.... The newly discovered star (in the constellation Centaurus) is being = called 'Lucy' in a tribute to the Beatles song 'Lucy In The Sky With = Diamonds.' ... Wonder where the Beatles came up with that crazy song = title... Otherwise, if you have no Lucy to bewilder, but can wait it out, our own = Sun will become a white dwarf when it dies. Sometime after that, the = Sun's ember core will probably crystallize as mostly carbon, leaving a = giant diamond for the taking...=20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3F2D4.16C4F160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"It's the mother of all diamonds!" says a Harvard = astronomer...
http://cfa-www.h= arvard.edu/previous/latest.html
 
And if someone on you Valentine day list is named Lucy, you might = be able=20 to tell her honestly and straight from the heart that you found a = diamond=20 weighing in a 10^34 carats... and it's being held in her name....
 
The newly discovered star (in the constellation = Centaurus) is=20 being called 'Lucy' in a tribute to the Beatles song 'Lucy In The Sky = With=20 Diamonds.' ... Wonder where the Beatles came up with that crazy song=20 title...
 
Otherwise, if you have no Lucy to bewilder, but can wait it out, = our own=20 Sun will become a white dwarf when it dies. Sometime after that, the = Sun's ember=20 core will probably crystallize as mostly carbon, leaving a giant diamond = for the=20 taking...
 
Jones
 
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3F2D4.16C4F160-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 11:18:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA18521; Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:17:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:17:03 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Valentine day treat Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 14:41:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000d01c3f317$255487c0$8837fea9@cpq> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"Z1wl02.0.HX4.kGdB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53098 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A nice variant of the story was linked from Drudge. http://sacbee.com/state_wire/story/8260120p-9190734c.html This line is my favorite: >The hunk of celestial bling is an estimated 2,500 miles >across, said Travis Metcalfe, of the Harvard-Smithsonian >Center for Astrophysics. Did he really say that? Celestial Bling?!?! Shizzle my nizzle, Astro-Dawg! K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 11:25 AM To: vortex Subject: Valentine day treat "It's the mother of all diamonds!" says a Harvard astronomer... http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/previous/latest.html And if someone on you Valentine day list is named Lucy, you might be able to tell her honestly and straight from the heart that you found a diamond weighing in a 10^34 carats... and it's being held in her name.... The newly discovered star (in the constellation Centaurus) is being called 'Lucy' in a tribute to the Beatles song 'Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.' ... Wonder where the Beatles came up with that crazy song title... Otherwise, if you have no Lucy to bewilder, but can wait it out, our own Sun will become a white dwarf when it dies. Sometime after that, the Sun's ember core will probably crystallize as mostly carbon, leaving a giant diamond for the taking... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 11:35:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA26364; Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:33:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:33:37 -0800 Message-ID: <001d01c3f331$405d28a0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: Re: Valentine day treat Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:32:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA26318 Resent-Message-ID: <"hDcvK1.0.uR6.HWdB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53099 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Did he really say that? Celestial Bling?!?! > Shizzle my nizzle, Astro-Dawg! Per the dopers over at MTV: The next time you and your pals coin a slang term to describe your latest bejeweled accessories, don't bet on keeping it exclusive. The linguistics "gangstas" over at the Oxford English Dictionary aren't "new jacks" to the latest "def" lingo. Pretty phat, I 'd say...h'bout ya, baby gangsta From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 12:12:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA13758; Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:11:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:11:19 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040214150729.01cb4e90@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:11:16 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Is anyone here connected with Netvenda.com? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Nz8_t1.0.vM3.c3eB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53100 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There is a rather mysterious web site, www.netvenda.com, that appears to be generating many referral visits to LENR-CANR.org. That is to say, somewhere within the Netvenda pages there lies a hyperlink to LENR-CANR.org, and many people are clicking on it. I do not know who these people are, or what is in the Netvenda pages, because they are restricted. In fact, I cannot figure out what Netvenda is, but evidently someone there is interested in cold fusion. If anyone here is connected with Netvenda, please contact me by direct e-mail. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 15:08:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA30779; Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:05:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:05:20 -0800 Message-ID: <001001c3f34e$d2edbbe0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040214150729.01cb4e90@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Is anyone here connected with Netvenda.com? Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:03:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA30732 Resent-Message-ID: <"0X3Jv1.0.sW7.mcgB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53101 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Conspiracy Theory Alert! Can you be sure that it is not shared server and/or a front for a "bot" ... i.e. an automatic program to catalogue all the info on the site. http://www.searchlores.org/bots.htm A bot would probably leave a pretty clear trail... like sequential downloads. I guess they do that kind of thing on the upper west side... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Is anyone here connected with Netvenda.com? > There is a rather mysterious web site, www.netvenda.com, that appears to be > generating many referral visits to LENR-CANR.org. That is to say, somewhere > within the Netvenda pages there lies a hyperlink to LENR-CANR.org, and many > people are clicking on it. I do not know who these people are, or what is > in the Netvenda pages, because they are restricted. In fact, I cannot > figure out what Netvenda is, but evidently someone there is interested in > cold fusion. If anyone here is connected with Netvenda, please contact me > by direct e-mail. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 17:20:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA24533; Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:20:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:20:20 -0800 Message-ID: <402EC97D.9030306@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:21:01 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Valentine day treat References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2K04G1.0.D_5.JbiB01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53102 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Did he really say that? Celestial Bling?!?! > So who knows where the term "bling bling" originated? It's the sound their jewelry makes when two wearers rapidly approach each other and hug. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 22:40:19 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA14267; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:38:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:38:17 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1135208727==_============" Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:42:49 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Plant fossil at Gusev? Resent-Message-ID: <"9vUp-1.0.tU3.OL6C01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53103 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135208727==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, this one is admittedly a pretty wild speculation, unlike the observation of the ubiquitous lichen-like things. If you go the press photos for today, Feb 15, 2004, you can view a press release photo: It is a composite photo by Spirit in the Gusev vicinity. If you look in the upper right corner, specifically at pixel coordinates 960,120, you can see an image that looks like it could be the fossil of a fern or plant. Could be just an illusion. There are some other similar looking rocks in the photo. A lip of a section of the rock is attached. --============_-1135208727==_============ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="fern.JPG" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="fern.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAZABkAAD//gAOUGxhbnQgRm9zc2ls/9sAQwABAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEB/9sAQwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB/8AAEQgAMAA+AwEiAAIRAQMRAf/EABsAAAICAwEA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAgJBgcBBQoE/8QAJxAAAwEBAAIDAAICAwADAAAAAgMEAQUGEwcSFBEj AAgVISIJJDL/xAAaAQADAAMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEBQYDBwgB/8QAJREAAwADAAICAgID AQAAAAAAAQIDBBESBSETIgYyABQjJTFB/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwCkfHT4nlvDX/xfO5/V r5xtph6aCpitQKl6qmDoTtYEzp9Ukdcw8sW/HHivrOdNAxzx3odRquyrYS4FFVFw9n2y G2U5IzppSuYp2OpnjahzTkoDGvaPuDa/b9HID744/wBn+P4hLYtumzyDyeiZMHjHJZjH yVBXit/cbGmK22e/GTFgIPCbrmia9HWsF8A8X8iDo8jPNDmiZTpKsk59Q08vmqt1XrX0 XKP0vMtPR6MriraujGH0PbLq0FzO8WkXW21BoDJqdAkoD75IbmYf7MyjYbYn+qj+bnyc tcEUcyUKVG5o6tV0Vd9qCz9j5GIY8lQpUdAsqtB7PivwvzHwtvA4dlLOVDjqbuH0U35b xu3UWlD00h1ANFBfUzYhaEKyhmqUyr74KkrH+Vf9KfnpPkfS+Y/j9PkF/k7uyd0HOiak +xzjTQvVrE017717KHukXIZMBX3TosGZry6EfFul471mD4pbz+TyejOluQ2zGM8wVmwK CxlKPc6dVCteDV4C2A4QrEnrf9l58d8b6TfLnQxNU7nKxjLhRRNvoxCf0H93pLcS4zSI qxn6M/hsq0kKdQgSvG5xxaUWpBm5KtGwCzpNivyqjcU30CXcFkQ69BW7NEHkfNZ3wPXF w40eGxxRi9m/8T3NpgtWSry7IxHKzM31t19/DPlPQ+RvjjmO+a/jboeN/N3jFzecruVc wuA7vwYAg0rbymaxGAEuT0MM5ypFrxV/X+lej35r8V+L+R/N0HP8m8LGDidZWwqz/iZ1 +PUIRNixzn9Y3U6ixZl+OcioPdapX9qNH7k8E+74uXZDidmlHQ6AfefIm/orC/8AP7C9 DJntZkv4QIBaVZsmSnF6TtHRN+g8l+MvE/LxUqtXIsOZhlG0KgVYsi9LROxaqKR3QEUN SH0VM/TUSX0BUlW5JtjTexx87j5drGTVbqM3buc53XsMk3B0GWToNaYI02Ven5JbHT/a eByfGIi/Iawb+0rsSSKrPIbGVe3YlVQiTaKKwfnSW6f9R/DetUngNKbhcrU2Sk2diIbG WqjEi51H2MwKzHNQmn+CCfcoHfaAlmFSHg//AMf3iHb6PlyvI/N5PHFcHsnxpBpdBWzo Gona21ALLHbCeLH8tGqIGj9tPUkQA12fmX+sT/Ids6vjfmW8Hqel4pl6JMtmOzo4gGUr 1jo0oqJM4F+79LM3cpMQ1msdtU/JX+snb8e7hdaQIPJi64JXXzdlkrg5TpZkpXvNc6kb PQYrZ90NLAmawhxeGwi0xM3yEP8ACMhXFfa/Fpl7loupIUPui1B3wUAmFDgkTLTE8z4T yLgpmpJwpPNk4tNSx04awMCW+ykliGLaABXY5jPjTuO5Pyb4j3eu3PRJ5FzqrvawTL0p rBjcaP2H6me5/ObojjN3NLSEvo3qd8A8v5Xe4DKpaUPlrTNo5tJOWef9HggX9w07m7oq Ip1pU5n8Gv7WblqIfKfjTxGnyHi8gOPZy/8Alen9KOvDNhSxiNa2tx/9jFSrBOloT7uO AfqTvr/O6Lk/ia/wzxPxnn+OQ2qqCDnc6NFJOhZQ4AkQqk2slCcys0U4RFQLBD7Fq3s2 plyBvOZUbGFlSjMyKnxoGU8q7AOTrWvbMQNtoKdj0C1z/FVv8K/2PjooLdupdOCZE9Ns AEFWUE7IU9Aa0wK3x5fJ71aaAR6WJw/bQihhiP1Tugpssy43Sl68IJtnY0zZq2fqcGk4 4T5t83r+P5i5NfOfE7zLoBwld1eAUvrYoJ1JSS6NqMWe2hFw+3ZSRROVKYrv65d9zOfN Yoo/HeiJ6+dWBfVVQVC3i57aQWyU30Y7V4r9InrNIvcIgBXAE9afMvwp0PNvBt8X73Xt kpj70HkHA6MpUvdH1I0GK57KK9FQS1ZuFGQkPqpDAIwbUYDONI51JzD3SR9FaLQcb2VJ J9shJI4CuqlVXQVG0Jhrj+EYnOfDalC6RrOs8ipXSkVMFVwpnpWRmGgNOrBiOp94nz7u FTT08ZVV0q1pd9+7tLKAWodEfz6GKctgfd30fjUmpukTrwmY3MuHwvneQ09xuDnOS7p4 I++yYyiAodAhBjo0vHVC+kMcl3uS7HJZhb7F89YyeBF0c5kC/L+ti/IJGtWxVNFuY/Uv WueihlZZLi3oFTzc3UGOGqpWg7EbGZvx8bBTAzmBo5FjEscQKav7M+hgvalon0l4bAH9 qaLN+yiprYh1CJTo8LxuKnNXWDcoGAUNx1Mo32o50dN9PSKrH/gAU71X+S/kvkchsnDU ZAd6UGQ7mRV2A0vxcoAZAhXQsD70Ryf1kl/iHVp65cu4T6Nn8/Y5OUDVqIf/AA8Da/CO qkzpnEd6iqbv07+LIlGMZq/zYOt6skfMy7k8+bonKX7uX0q6aslaJ5gPD7jynUDUn1Pn b9sGVbDScydcqSCY826xnRVcCgXAo1es5GUnRRkmiLHulTWdSgNs+JpYLPSdO+0Ih3EY +wXJ5oxz9y2GSpHQY1WFUVSv7xzCxgF0UqWesADxuL1oi1ZajVYb1/4RkZidoDASVZkr wByeiPseRpT9W19gTtyej9lk8PG8jQGcHGRZqDksWFSyKFZAEbkI2+uOehRE0wBZTzQs +NEdj6sFC2t9OtAsW4aCTua0D0l686A3VaRMHETJ3BZptJRYiKW09jwJ/JvYFeQtoWvo mI7rIxGvBwEkDFBOdM2aSViRm14/Zat3+zSb8VTN16aqLC/LRL6jD2KWr9LKdENbK3+x DxmHB1ov/pA5jM3lhgUXps8Uk785c7uqU/lUf2rb/wCGEIrZtLdBi3/mUnSDDBIJVvuY Rgsvtpf5PJlbZp3dTMDQTRDr3+zJ+oYqOWAOmP7a53vruuOaABYMyhV+RudD9yzbb1sN 0uteuedEqSAUvwPzD6cstVjgoifKikqILFi5utYtax/hC2P0ZxRv3/jGHg5I4WJNKWOO O7xDhp8fGRpCtOrLW0XeiHRczcZv5T18TVJN2p2d5KWg5M9bNx+ISxaXj/a8v+PvyQ+P tX+aXS1D5J8RXNmK+xfx7QaVRqEixv1n96ixIEzVEOjMJ/kDzDyI+hvZ8k8mxIz7NNEb hyd+O9Z9B08siVi5hEnNbmrnXIOpz7As15WFl5eW0MdMV1lNStK2Fe2qX5AM5pPrQJJA egQKNhQVPULj/h0sryGRl+Tuayo7Tjj48mUKoqpm/TUKKe9Dr42YvxydKrG0Zk+G9PsT x05lz8132sTQBNB3tfuiLJmkzPTn8ev6gCpYzJq1NU6q3LW8Y4tnhlM8MPRffGHtKWuj WL6O5oOYJ5ICJxNYsZVNGA6OiBHQamKVRjAWd4t1537XH06HMLcNTgvBzFkO47/9SA9r iThHn10JGrcTGtfJhPYO5pu8z60qdq6/YFqWkjKJipWaJ9UAf+lTmgB3NU0F6E61Nd91 aZJe02Z6eSylEzK0zqZVyzP8ewrbZlGgwE2dWQ7mdhuCwTj2v4HhZBK3NKzHDzVkLNMK WXT2VlKqUoAuiVZuXYE7T+MZ8T+RfH7SVy1UzRXp3QdzaFpIkV+xgKPVOoXspOQcbgW8 0RWGzKGzUKSzaMecf7D+J/H0XMnqaXY6VrW5QvgNn6S4FyYYLU+hleYf86zUqFdS8Tkh 4Uf9oO1YTOM19i6q8rs2YdNgqfQH/Q4P0ZlE9RNXs5bmKWWNGYx/MLUUjnr9sTC6LHmw z6WL9YLN36pzNYhn1d9Z2r0Q/jfWH/2BBgjjcS7Syn/BMq9Lr1SzrPlDQTQipPaEInsq EBYbX2RoDZH/AAvxf4L43xmV/bqaZBBZps6hYRbQX00yXYsrfVdTJYF9nW3/AP/Z --============_-1135208727==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regards, Horace Heffner --============_-1135208727==_============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 22:45:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA16283; Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:43:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:43:15 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Occam and Cold Fusion Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:42:34 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <009701c3f195$46b9aae0$8837fea9@cpq> <013401c3f1c8$e8174c20$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <013401c3f1c8$e8174c20$8837fea9@cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA16229 Resent-Message-ID: <"3ZXoC1.0.I-3.3Q6C01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53104 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:32:47 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Robin, > >> Why does neutrino anti-neutrino pair creation not occur as a method of disposing of excess energy in excited nuclei? > > >Try this answer: In moderately excited nuclei where the excess energy is mediated by the neutron, and assuming that the particle conservation laws which govern particle decays are in effect: the neutron can only emit a proton, electron and an antineutrino - no neutrino allowed - as the proton satisfies the conservation of baryon number, but the emergence of the electron unaccompanied would violate conservation of lepton number. The third particle must be an electron antineutrino only to satisfy lepton number conservation. The electron has lepton number 1, and the antineutrino has lepton number -1. Neutrino has lepton number +1, anti-neutrino has lepton number -1. The pair has net zero, hence should be able to form when adequate energy is available. Given that the rest mass of the neutrino is very small, if not zero, that should be nearly all the time. Since it doesn't appear to happen, there must be some other reason why not. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 03:58:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA23349; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:56:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:56:32 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:01:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Matchstick lichen yet again Resent-Message-ID: <"80Kxf3.0.mi5.m_AC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53105 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Sol 22 Opportunity microscopic images, especially: show especially clear examples of matchstick type lichen. Many of the better examples are toward the bottom of the jpg. Twenty minutes of looking at the bottom third of the photo yields dozens of examples where the entire white tipped matchstick structure is clearly visible. Also of interest is the possiblility (and this is especially speculative) that the white fibrous looking piles seen in other photos may be frozen yet still (long-term) decaying white fruiting bodies. A few of the white spheres in the above photo look like they may be just starting to decay. If so, they likely aren't fossils and likely aren't rocks. They are not like the blueberries cemented into the sandstone-like rock. Though this notion is highly speculative, it gives a perspective that may be useful in examining future photographs. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 04:24:40 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA04422; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 04:22:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 04:22:59 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:27:36 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Tubes in Spirit photos Resent-Message-ID: <"wO7GL3.0.251.YOBC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53106 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wow! Look at the little tubes that appear to be down in the niche in the "rock" shown in the Spirit Sol 42 micrcoscopic image at: Also looks like some of them come to the surface of the "rock" itself in little bundles. Looks like some are fully contined in the "rock" with only the tube opening surface showing. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 06:47:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA15128; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:45:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:45:25 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c3f49b$4d86e460$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <009701c3f195$46b9aae0$8837fea9@cpq> <013401c3f1c8$e8174c20$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: Occam and Cold Fusion Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:43:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA15083 Resent-Message-ID: <"kewwL3.0.Ki3.5UDC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53107 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, > "Neutrino has lepton number +1, anti-neutrino has lepton number -1. The pair has net zero, hence should be able to form when adequate energy is available. Given that the rest mass of the neutrino is very small, if not zero, that should be nearly all the time. Since it doesn't appear to happen, there must be some other reason why not." Yes, but no +1neutrino (as opposed to anti-neutrino), real of virtual, can ever exist within a neutron because of the necessary presence of the other +1 lepton (the electron) which needs to be there at some point, so depending on how tolerant your semantics are of 'when' the decay occurs, no 'neutron-anti-neutrino pair' can ever derive from the neutron itself. That is why I was trying to say in the previous post that if the excess energy is high enough so that some other form of decay occurs involving a large-enough boson then there is no obvious reason why the pair you suggest couldn't form... but I would think that would involve energy in the range of >1 GeV. BTW did you pose this question to sci.physics or elsewhere ? it is an interesting question. Of course, we are both aware that the science-police have declared that a proton consists of 2 up quarks, 1 down quark, and gluons holding it together. A neutron consists of 1 up quark, 2 down quarks, and gluons but no electron. The neutron decay process, in their lingo occurs because a down quark changes into an up quark and emits an electron and an anti-neutrino. The semantic problem for the science-police is that the electron and anti-neutrino supposedly weren't there before the actual neutron decay - but were somehow magically "created" at the very moment that this reaction takes place. Bizarre. It is more plausible for some of us more feeble-minded observers to think that in this case the experts are wrong and that the electron and anti-neutrino were there all along in virtual form.. But the important factor, stripped of semantics is that an electron and an anti-neutrino are the 'real' difference between an neutron and a proton and the only proven particles (as opposed to 'debris' from collisions) that can function to hold the nucleus together. IOW the so-called gluon could be no more than short lived debris and 'imaginary' except to make the mathematics of gauge symmetry, or whatever, work out to the satisfaction of the science-police, who seem to have little appreciation for the nuance of written language... and common sense. Now if you want 'bizarre,' and don't mind me making a short-story long - then here is my most recent take on the generalized sub-atomic scene: it could well be that the electron/ anti-neutrino pair is both the key to the "attractive" nature of the strong force, the mitigating effects of the weak force, and that the same lepton pairing on a different scale (with less angular momentum) is also responsible for the "anti-attractive" force that keeps an orbiting electron from collapsing into the nucleus ! The anti-neutrino rules! And it all depends on the lissajous number (which, thank you very much, I believe is your own insight... whether or not you want to have it applied here). One wonders why the neutron (or something about the neutron) itself was early-on not seriously considered to be the mediating "gluelike" particle, instead of postulating the gluon which cannot exist in 'real' time. After all, protons are never found together for more than picoseconds without neutrons being present, and there are some reasons why a light lepton might operate with a near-field that has "attractive" properties at close range - just like the gluon is supposed to have. Since wavelength of the electron anti-neutrino (if its rest mass is 3.4 eV) is many times larger than the dimensions of the neutron then it too must operate in a multiple-revolution lissajous-type fashion (like a smaller version of the orbitsphere as you have described on your web page) the end result being that the only thing felt by adjoining protons in a large nucleus is the near-field of the neutron, which is itself the product of a bound light-lepton which probably has a rest mass of exactly 3.4 eV and an inscribes an orbitsphere whose near-field transfers more charge from the encased virtual electron than from the core proton that makes it neutral from a far distance. IOW although the neutron - although it is net-neutral from a distance, has a negative near-field which extends out about 2 x 10^-15 m (2 fermi). Now how about them apples? Jones ... with apologies to Occam.... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 07:43:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA17881; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:40:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:40:24 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1e8.1907fc26.2d623e3d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:39:41 EST Subject: Re: Occam and Cold Fusion To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1e8.1907fc26.2d623e3d_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ba1al1.0.HN4.eHEC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53108 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1e8.1907fc26.2d623e3d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/16/04 1:45:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au writes: > In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:32:47 -0800: > Hi, > [snip] > > >Robin, > > > >> Why does neutrino anti-neutrino pair creation not occur as a method of > disposing of excess energy in excited nuclei? > > > I hope my Constants of the Motion theory can shed some light on this. The elastic limit of space times the nuclear diameter equals the elecron rest mass energy. the elastic limit of space http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html The nice thing about this model is that it describes the path of the quatum transition. In doing so it yields Znidarsic' s theorem, "The nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravitational motion constats converge in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter." enjoy Frank Znidarsic --part1_1e8.1907fc26.2d623e3d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/16/04 1:45:37=20= AM Eastern Standard Time, rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au writes:


In reply to  Jones Beene's= message of Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:32:47 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin,
>
>> Why does neutrino anti-neutrino pair creation not occur as a method= of disposing of excess energy in excited nuclei?
>


I hope my Constants of the Motion theory can shed some light on this.
The elastic limit of space times the nuclear diameter equals the elecron res= t mass energy.

the elastic li= mit of space

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html

The nice thing about this model is that it describes the path of the quatum=20= transition.
In doing so it yields Znidarsic' s theorem,  "The nuclear, electromagne= tic, and gravitational motion constats converge in a Bose condensate that is= stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter."

enjoy

Frank Znidarsic
 --part1_1e8.1907fc26.2d623e3d_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 07:45:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA19557; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:42:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:42:48 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040216102601.01cb52c0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:37:00 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Is anyone here connected with Netvenda.com? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"rz7Fu3.0.Xn4.uJEC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53109 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: > Can you be sure that it is not shared server and/or a front for a "bot" ... i.e. an automatic program to catalogue all the info on the site. I have seen "bot" visits before, from places like Google. They do not look like this. This has generated over 8000 visits in the last few days. If this is a bot, it is the most inefficient one in history. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 07:59:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA28233; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:56:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:56:44 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Is anyone here connected with Netvenda.com? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:21:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040216102601.01cb52c0@pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"wJYP91.0.5v6.yWEC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53110 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Heh.... Rampaging robot. Are all the hits on unique files? Sounds like someones mining your site for data. Post some raw log data, and we can do forensics. You know, the Internet is like a small neighborhood. Except about a billion people live in the house next door. And some of them just plain suck. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:37 AM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Is anyone here connected with Netvenda.com? Jones Beene writes: > Can you be sure that it is not shared server and/or a front for a "bot" ... i.e. an automatic program to catalogue all the info on the site. I have seen "bot" visits before, from places like Google. They do not look like this. This has generated over 8000 visits in the last few days. If this is a bot, it is the most inefficient one in history. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 12:50:18 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA26782; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:45:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:45:21 -0800 Message-ID: <40312BB3.90407@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:44:35 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Spirit's Rocks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3YPks3.0.MY6.XlIC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53111 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why are the rocks at the Spirit site so "pointy"? >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/043/2P130196587EFF0700P2406R1M1.JPG< Can you imagine walking barefoot over this terrain . . . even in lower g? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 13:08:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA07004; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:05:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:05:45 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Spirit's Rocks Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:30:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <40312BB3.90407@rtpatlanta.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"NAR9U2.0.Hj1.e2JC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53112 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yep. My first thought when the Spirit images were released was, "I guess now we know what happened to the Beagle. Punctured airbag." Is all that sharp stuff deposited by volcanic activity or meteor strikes? Or something else. K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont@rtpatlanta.com] Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 3:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Spirit's Rocks Why are the rocks at the Spirit site so "pointy"? >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/043/2P130196587EFF0700P2406R 1M1.JPG< Can you imagine walking barefoot over this terrain . . . even in lower g? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 13:33:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA20901; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:30:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:30:42 -0800 Message-ID: <007001c3f4d3$e9651ae0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: More con-fusion Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:29:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA20836 Resent-Message-ID: <"CaPb8.0.X65.1QJC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53113 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For those who think they are getting a handle on LENR, an interesting older paper is online at lenr-canr.org that may contradict a few previous assumptions... at least it doesn't help resolve anything. ON CURRENT DENSITY AND EXCESS POWER DENSITY IN ELECTROLYSIS EXPERIMENTS by Dan Chicea (paper presented at ICCF9) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChiceaDoncurrentd.pdf Chicea is an associate of George Miley. GM helped him with this study and presumably accepted the accuracy of the results. Without the shadow of Miley, one might be inclined to discount the importance of these findings. If you look at the chart of the excess power, i.e. the " f ratio" it is the number that describes the experiment in respect to the excess power which was achieved with all of the combinations tried: the highest f ratios value in the 10 experiments described in this work are surprising. If the experiment is conducted using two inactive electrodes, like Platinum, the f ratio will reportedly be 0. In general, unless I am reading this incorrectly here are some conclusions: 1) The best result of all (f=73) uses LIGHT WATER, a Ni foil cathode and lithium sulphate electrolyte and low current density. 2) Substituting heavy water for light water lowers the excess power 3) Substituting palladium for Nickel lowers the excess power 4) Raising the current density lowers the excess power 5) Substituting potassium for lithium lowers the excess power Wow. I will admit that before reading this I would have guessed wrong on every count. Maybe I'm not reading the chart correctly or maybe there is something else going-on, as the author seems to ignore the implications of this and instead focuses on the issue of current density per volume of electrode... hello... who gives a hoot about current density if you can use Nickel as you cathode - as for every dollar put into a Ni cathode you can get about 2000 times more volume of metal compared with palladium... so why not just use a larger volume of Ni cathodes and lower current density? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 16:39:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA03569; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:37:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:37:28 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <48.27e7b40a.2d62bc1f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:36:47 EST Subject: Re: Spirit's Rocks To: knagel@gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_48.27e7b40a.2d62bc1f_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"KGEc33.0.et.79MC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53114 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_48.27e7b40a.2d62bc1f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/16/04 4:08:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel@gis.net=20 writes: > Is all that sharp stuff deposited by volcanic > activity or meteor strikes? Or something else. >=20 >=20 Couldn't it be a matter of what didn't happen?=A0 Lack of erosion on a dry=20 surface with thin air, and little geological activity (to melt and consume r= ocks)=20 to boot? My guess is that whatever rocks were made through normal processes at the=20 tail end of Mars' watery/denser atmospheric phase were left as is, and impac= ts=20 kicked up new ones. Erik --part1_48.27e7b40a.2d62bc1f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/16/04 4:08:08=20= PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel@gis.net writes:

Is all that sharp stuff deposit= ed by volcanic
activity or meteor strikes? Or something else.



Couldn't it be a matter of what didn't happen?=A0 Lack of erosion on a dry s= urface with thin air, and little geological activity (to melt and consume ro= cks) to boot?

My guess is that whatever rocks were made through normal processes at the ta= il end of Mars' watery/denser atmospheric phase were left as is, and impacts= kicked up new ones.

Erik --part1_48.27e7b40a.2d62bc1f_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 19:51:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA07145; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:50:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:50:32 -0800 Message-ID: <40318FB5.10801@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:51:17 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: More con-fusion References: <007001c3f4d3$e9651ae0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <007001c3f4d3$e9651ae0$8837fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FYJWz3.0.bl1.7-OC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53115 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > For those who think they are getting a handle on LENR, an interesting > older paper is online at lenr-canr.org that may contradict a few > previous assumptions... at least it doesn't help resolve anything. > > ON CURRENT DENSITY AND EXCESS POWER DENSITY IN ELECTROLYSIS > EXPERIMENTS by Dan Chicea (paper presented at ICCF9) > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChiceaDoncurrentd.pdf > ... > If you look at the chart of the excess power, i.e. the " f ratio" it > is the number that describes the experiment in respect to the excess > power which was achieved with all of the combinations tried: the > highest f ratios value in the 10 experiments described in this work > are surprising. If the experiment is conducted using two inactive > electrodes, like Platinum, the f ratio will reportedly be 0. > > In general, unless I am reading this incorrectly here are some > conclusions: There seem to be a couple issues here. Note first that he used three cells which were not identical. The experiments with light water and nickel film and another metal deposited over it for the electrolyte appear to have been done in a closed-top cell; the others were done in open-top cells. This makes comparisons more difficult. But perhaps I mis-read the description...? The power levels involved were also a little surprising. If I read the chart correctly, the highest _input_ power level in any of the experiments was less than one watt, and all but one of the runs were done with input power substantially less than a quarter watt. The "excess power" was, in each case, a tiny fraction of a watt. This sounds very strange, but as far as I can see when he says input power was, e.g., "0.101" it means a tenth of a watt. Am I crosseyed or confused, or is that what you see, too? I'd believe it if someone claimed these values were normalized to be ratios and that's why they're all less than one, but I sure don't see that stated in the paper anywhere. He says: "The input Joule power, PJ (4) was calculated as the voltage across the cell times the current. Pj = U*I" Sounds pretty clear. The error bars appear to have been huge as well, or the runs were highly nonreproducible. The first two runs had values of 73% and 26% respectively, with input powers of 0.115W and 0.139W respectively. All else appears to have been identical between these runs. Now, one possible conclusion is that excess power is very heavily and negatively correlated with input power, and the power values he picked just happened to be in the middle of a highly nonlinear range. A more plausible conclusion would be that the results are not very reproducible, and many more runs would need to be done before any conclusions could be drawn. I would tend to favor the second conclusion. > > 1) The best result of all (f=73) uses LIGHT WATER, a Ni foil cathode > and lithium sulphate electrolyte and low current density. > > 2) Substituting heavy water for light water lowers the excess power > > 3) Substituting palladium for Nickel lowers the excess power > > 4) Raising the current density lowers the excess power > > 5) Substituting potassium for lithium lowers the excess power As above -- these results don't seem ironclad... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 21:23:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA16257; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:21:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:21:43 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:26:18 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Resent-Message-ID: <"rWafj.0.zz3.cJQC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53116 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:25 AM 2/13/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >I copied two sections out of one of the recent microphotographs (the one >with the long fiber). Both images are the same size in pixels. One is of >the sand matrix, the other is out of the surface of one of the balls. The >original image had some minor enhancement done before the clippings were >taken: pixel interpolation and a little gaussian blur. I converted them to >TIFF files and compressed then with Stuffit Deluxe ZIP compression. The >ball image went down by 30%, and the sand by 12%. Based on that >Astrobiology article, the ball has a greater chance of having biotic >origin. But look at the two images: which would you guess would take more >to compress? The ball surface looks much more complex to me, but it >compresses 2 1/2 times easier. I wonder if theres something to this? Many >more tests needed. [snip] Sorry for taking so long to respond to this. ZIP compression is just a bitstream compression, true? If so then the only advantage living things would have over dead thigs is a tendency to have a fixed spectral signature under differing angles of illumination and a tendency for dispersed (flat) reflection. However, bitstream compression, as opposed to image compression or video compression, is merely based on pattern repeatability with regard to lines of pixel data, probably stored in left to right raster form. If this is so then a photo of a bucket of worms might tend to compress more than a photo of a bucket of nails, but certainly could not compare to the compression one would get from a photo of the outside wall of a vinyl sided house. If something is a nearly uniform color and brightness with flat illumination then it should compress fairly well. A complex structure with many angles of illumination and shading can probably not compress well, living or dead. It seems to me pretty difficult to get the proverbial apples vs apples here. I am curious about your estimate of "compresses 2 1/2 times easier" above. Are you saying the compression of the Ball was to 30 percent of original volume, or that the volume went down by 30 percent? It appears you are not saying the sand compressed to 12 percent of its size, otherwise it would be more compressable than the ball. Therefore, it appears the ball compresses to 70 percent of its size, and the sand to only 88 percent. This is not a major difference in information entropy. (Compression ratio sounds too much like internal combustion terminology.) It is difficult to tell just how significant it is. As you say, many more tests are needed. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 21:32:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA20255; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:31:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:31:34 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: NASA censorship Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:29:54 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"d2pGs2.0.Ry4.sSQC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53117 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These guys are hiding something serious. -----Original Message----- From: Athena mail account [mailto:athenamail@astro.cornell.edu] Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17 10:42 To: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Athena - Reference Contact Info Sorry, raw data is not available to the public at this time. Craig At 09:24 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by >Paul Anderson (pariah@explorecraft.com) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 at >21:24:39 >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >User Comment: Where to find the spectrometer data from Opportunity/Spirit? >We see the jpeg interpretations on the JPL site, but would like to examine >the raw or csv datasets as an educational exercise > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 22:46:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA17119; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:45:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:45:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:45:37 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA17102 Resent-Message-ID: <"XWg4l1.0.RB4.RYRC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53118 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - The ball went down 30%, the sand only 12%. My comment about 2 1/2 was that the balls compresses 2.5 times more than the sand. You'd have to read the article in Astrobiology I referenced earlier and see the work on the biological and non-biological stromatolites in comparison to one another to get the full significance. This stuff is just suggestive and not proof of anything, but I found it interesting and relevant when we are looking at these images where we see odd structures and are trying to guess how bilogical their origins are or aren't. - Rick > >Sorry for taking so long to respond to this. > >ZIP compression is just a bitstream compression, true? If so then the only >advantage living things would have over dead thigs is a tendency to have a >fixed spectral signature under differing angles of illumination and a >tendency for dispersed (flat) reflection. However, bitstream compression, >as opposed to image compression or video compression, is merely based on >pattern repeatability with regard to lines of pixel data, probably stored >in left to right raster form. If this is so then a photo of a bucket of >worms might tend to compress more than a photo of a bucket of nails, but >certainly could not compare to the compression one would get from a photo >of the outside wall of a vinyl sided house. If something is a nearly >uniform color and brightness with flat illumination then it should compress >fairly well. A complex structure with many angles of illumination and >shading can probably not compress well, living or dead. It seems to me >pretty difficult to get the proverbial apples vs apples here. > >I am curious about your estimate of "compresses 2 1/2 times easier" above. >Are you saying the compression of the Ball was to 30 percent of original >volume, or that the volume went down by 30 percent? It appears you are not >saying the sand compressed to 12 percent of its size, otherwise it would be >more compressable than the ball. Therefore, it appears the ball compresses >to 70 percent of its size, and the sand to only 88 percent. This is not a >major difference in information entropy. (Compression ratio sounds too >much like internal combustion terminology.) It is difficult to tell just >how significant it is. As you say, many more tests are needed. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 22:54:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA19353; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:52:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:52:33 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <83.5759323.2d63140d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:51:57 EST Subject: Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_83.5759323.2d63140d_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"9xQC63.0.Lk4.meRC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53119 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_83.5759323.2d63140d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All - You might recall there was a bit of a row at NASA over a leak to the New York Times about finding hematite. That was before they finding had been fully confirmed and the indicative data had been triple-checked for reliability, so it's true that NASA is extremely conservative about what it releases. That said, a reliable source tells me that the trenching done today turned up a white (or very light) material. It looks like that material may be soft, but at the moment it's hard to say because it's been viewed with only secondary (nonscientific) cameras that are used for engineering purposes. Wait a day or two for the high resolution images taken from a better perspective. In the mean time, here's hoping that it's limestone or (Mars willing) chalk! Oh hell, if we're just hoping about things, I'll hope it's a big ol' fossil of a 2,500 cc capacity Mars skull! Best regards, Erik Baard --part1_83.5759323.2d63140d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All -

You might recall there was a bit of a row at NASA over a leak to the New Yor= k Times about finding hematite.  That was before they finding had been=20= fully confirmed and the indicative data had been triple-checked for reliabil= ity, so it's true that NASA is extremely conservative about what it releases= .

That said, a reliable source tells me that the trenching done today turned u= p a white (or very light) material.  It looks like that material may be= soft, but at the moment it's hard to say because it's been viewed with only= secondary (nonscientific) cameras that are used for engineering purposes.&n= bsp; Wait a day or two for the high resolution images taken from a better pe= rspective.

In the mean time, here's hoping that it's limestone or (Mars willing) chalk!=   Oh hell, if we're just hoping about things, I'll hope it's a big ol'=20= fossil of a 2,500 cc capacity Mars skull!

Best regards,

Erik Baard --part1_83.5759323.2d63140d_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 23:17:20 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA28972; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:16:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:16:42 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:15:02 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C3F560.6EBC3700" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <83.5759323.2d63140d@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"DKi6X.0.e47.P_RC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53121 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C3F560.6EBC3700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The point regards _uninterpreted_ datasets, not interpreted data with all the reputation baggage that carries. Data censorship is a travesty. NASA/JPL has something to hide, suggesting internal arguments between the ringmasters and the technical serfs. The white stuff is visible at = http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/f/023/1F130227421EFF0400R001= 3R0M1.JPG -----Original Message----- From: Erikbaard@aol.com [mailto:Erikbaard@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17 13:52 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Hi All -=20 You might recall there was a bit of a row at NASA over a leak to the = New York Times about finding hematite. That was before they finding had = been fully confirmed and the indicative data had been triple-checked for = reliability, so it's true that NASA is extremely conservative about what = it releases. That said, a reliable source tells me that the trenching done today = turned up a white (or very light) material. It looks like that material = may be soft, but at the moment it's hard to say because it's been viewed = with only secondary (nonscientific) cameras that are used for = engineering purposes. Wait a day or two for the high resolution images = taken from a better perspective. In the mean time, here's hoping that it's limestone or (Mars willing) = chalk! Oh hell, if we're just hoping about things, I'll hope it's a big = ol' fossil of a 2,500 cc capacity Mars skull! Best regards, Erik Baard=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C3F560.6EBC3700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
The=20 point regards  _uninterpreted_ = datasets,
 not interpreted data with all the reputation baggage that = carries.
 
Data=20 censorship is a travesty.
 
NASA/JPL has something to hide, suggesting internal=20 arguments
 between the ringmasters and the technical=20 serfs.
 
The=20 white stuff is visible at
 http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/f/023/1F1= 30227421EFF0400R0013R0M1.JPG
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Erikbaard@aol.com=20 [mailto:Erikbaard@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17=20 13:52
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: NASA = censorship=20 (and now white stuff?)

Hi = All -

You=20 might recall there was a bit of a row at NASA over a leak to the New = York=20 Times about finding hematite.  That was before they finding had = been=20 fully confirmed and the indicative data had been triple-checked for=20 reliability, so it's true that NASA is extremely conservative about = what it=20 releases.

That said, a reliable source tells me that the = trenching done=20 today turned up a white (or very light) material.  It looks like = that=20 material may be soft, but at the moment it's hard to say because it's = been=20 viewed with only secondary (nonscientific) cameras that are used for=20 engineering purposes.  Wait a day or two for the high resolution = images=20 taken from a better perspective.

In the mean time, here's = hoping that=20 it's limestone or (Mars willing) chalk!  Oh hell, if we're just = hoping=20 about things, I'll hope it's a big ol' fossil of a 2,500 cc capacity = Mars=20 skull!

Best regards,

Erik Baard=20
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C3F560.6EBC3700-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 23:18:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA29581; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:17:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:17:41 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:17:30 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Tubes in Spirit photos Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA29554 Resent-Message-ID: <"MXloI.0.5E7.L0SC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53122 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - Sol 41 Gusev micro. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/041/2M130001885EFF0506P2943M2M1.JPG Lots of long strands and chains of grains or tiny spheres or whatever they are, and general fungus-infested appearance to the whole scene. And that rock Mimi - in the micro images, doesn't it look like the whole thing is rotting away into hoards of tiny spherules near the bottom? - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 23:20:33 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA28896; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:16:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:16:36 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:14:52 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"nIWVG1.0.R37.J_RC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53120 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One consideration is that zip will like pebbles better than sand, despite the fact both are lifeless erosion products. We would need to run some form of 2-dimensional algorithm over the fotos to do it correctly - that's what our brain does anyway when we look at the fotos. Zip is a one-dimensional algorithm, which means it may perceive edges but not shapes. [sidebar] Consider the ground rules JPL probably developed before the landings: they probably threatened anyone with permanent exile whoever said anything about 'life-forms' during the mission. They probably have a preference to ignore anything with holes in it, predicated upon the prejudice that holes would be of all sizes and shapes and merely attributes of igneous processes. They will probably never give a second glance to any rocks having unusual holes/hole patterns, but they may perk up when they see parallel lines or other obviously life-created geometry. [/sidebar] True life-form geometries may behave in ways we can't imagine, but running pattern-recognition algorithms is a healthy start at any rate. One of my current backshelf projects is to do something similar for seismic data, extracting wavelets from time-domain data and then correlating this across event horizons. > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17 13:46 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry > > > > Horace - > > The ball went down 30%, the sand only 12%. My comment about 2 1/2 > was that the balls compresses 2.5 times more than the sand. > > You'd have to read the article in Astrobiology I referenced > earlier and see the work on the biological and non-biological > stromatolites in comparison to one another to get the full > significance. This stuff is just suggestive and not proof of > anything, but I found it interesting and relevant when we are > looking at these images where we see odd structures and are > trying to guess how bilogical their origins are or aren't. > > - Rick > > > > > >Sorry for taking so long to respond to this. > > > >ZIP compression is just a bitstream compression, true? If so > then the only > >advantage living things would have over dead thigs is a tendency > to have a > >fixed spectral signature under differing angles of illumination and a > >tendency for dispersed (flat) reflection. However, bitstream > compression, > >as opposed to image compression or video compression, is merely based on > >pattern repeatability with regard to lines of pixel data, probably stored > >in left to right raster form. If this is so then a photo of a bucket of > >worms might tend to compress more than a photo of a bucket of nails, but > >certainly could not compare to the compression one would get from a photo > >of the outside wall of a vinyl sided house. If something is a nearly > >uniform color and brightness with flat illumination then it > should compress > >fairly well. A complex structure with many angles of illumination and > >shading can probably not compress well, living or dead. It seems to me > >pretty difficult to get the proverbial apples vs apples here. > > > >I am curious about your estimate of "compresses 2 1/2 times > easier" above. > >Are you saying the compression of the Ball was to 30 percent of original > >volume, or that the volume went down by 30 percent? It appears > you are not > >saying the sand compressed to 12 percent of its size, otherwise > it would be > >more compressable than the ball. Therefore, it appears the ball > compresses > >to 70 percent of its size, and the sand to only 88 percent. > This is not a > >major difference in information entropy. (Compression ratio sounds too > >much like internal combustion terminology.) It is difficult to tell just > >how significant it is. As you say, many more tests are needed. > > > >Regards, > > > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 23:24:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA30950; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:21:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:21:17 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:25:53 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Resent-Message-ID: <"1I4aK.0.YZ7.i3SC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53123 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:45 PM 2/16/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > >The ball went down 30%, the sand only 12%. My comment about 2 1/2 was that >the balls compresses 2.5 times more than the sand. I guess I am now nitpicking since we now both know for sure what you mean and it is all just a matter of terminology. However, I still think the notion that compression to 70 percent of original size vs 88 percent is 2.5 times more compression is misleading. By this yardstick a compression to 96 percent of original size would be 4 times more than a compression to 99 percent of original size when in fact neither compression is significant. It seems to me that if something compresses twice as well then it should be half the size after both sets of data are compressed. By this yardstick the ball compresses to about 80 percent of the size of the sand and thus compresses about 20 percent more. This small difference it seems to me is easily accounted for by the uniform nature of the ball and its comparatively flat lighting vs the graininess of the "sand" and its myriad angles of lighting. > >You'd have to read the article in Astrobiology I referenced earlier and >see the work on the biological and non-biological stromatolites in >comparison to one another to get the full significance. This stuff is just >suggestive and not proof of anything, but I found it interesting and >relevant when we are looking at these images where we see odd structures >and are trying to guess how bilogical their origins are or aren't. > >- Rick Yes, this was very interesting, but the difference in indications is clearly not significant. Both samples obviously contain once living matter! 8^) It seems to me that first principles should always rule over mere correlations. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 23:40:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA06580; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:39:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:39:57 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:44:33 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Tubes in Spirit photos Resent-Message-ID: <"SpLRc2.0.lc1.CLSC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53124 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:17 PM 2/16/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > >Sol 41 Gusev micro. > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/041/2M130001885EFF0506P2943M >2M1.JPG > >Lots of long strands and chains of grains or tiny spheres or whatever they >are, and general fungus-infested appearance to the whole scene. And that >rock Mimi - in the micro images, doesn't it look like the whole thing is >rotting away into hoards of tiny spherules near the bottom? Yes it does, but it is so hard to tell for sure. I wish they could get higher power images. It is hard to tell whether fibrous looking stuff is covering balls or "rocks" that are partly buried, or whether the "rocks" are themslelves decaying into fibrous like stuff. Also complicating things is the fact that the surface is so darn cold. Some of the texture is probably due to cold and sublimation, dehydration. It would be neat if there were a way to warm the image area up and keep it above freezing for a while. It would be cool to see if things moved about as the sun moved, etc. However, as Eric Baard says, since it's wishful thinking, might as well wish for something cool - like little critters scurrying about! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 00:02:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA14862; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:01:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:01:41 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:06:14 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Resent-Message-ID: <"Zgdlp1.0.7e3.afSC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53125 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:15 PM 2/17/4, explorecraft wrote: >The white stuff is visible at > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/f/023/1F130227421EFF0400R0013R >0M1.JPG It doesn't really look very much like it, but it is possible the white stuff partly consists of water crystals (e.g. snow frost or snow.) Micrographs taken at differing times might actually show the stuff sublimating into the atmosphere. The surface lichen may have evolved the survival strategy of sealing the surface with some kind of non-sublimating gell or gell/ice/mineral crust to prevent escape of water vapor from deeper regions. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 00:42:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA32604; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:42:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:42:20 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: <125.2acf297d.2d632dc6@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:41:42 EST Subject: Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_125.2acf297d.2d632dc6_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"mQ2Ql1.0.Oz7.iFTC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53126 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_125.2acf297d.2d632dc6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/04 2:17:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, pariah@explorecraft.com writes: > The point regards _uninterpreted_ datasets, > not interpreted data with all the reputation baggage that carries. > > I understand that, but even "raw" data has to be determined to be reliable before distributed. NASA is a slow-moving, bloated bureaucracy but I don't think they are hiding fossils or something equally compelling. I'm sure the data will be released eventually (probably before long), constituting a delay but not censorship. Erik --part1_125.2acf297d.2d632dc6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/17/04 2:17:40=20= AM Eastern Standard Time, pariah@explorecraft.com writes:

The point regards  _unint= erpreted_ datasets,
  not interpreted data with all the reputation baggage that carries.<= BR>  


I understand that, but even "raw" data has to be determined to be reliable b= efore distributed.  NASA is a slow-moving, bloated bureaucracy but I do= n't think they are hiding fossils or something equally compelling.  I'm= sure the data will be released eventually (probably before long), constitut= ing a delay but not censorship.

Erik --part1_125.2acf297d.2d632dc6_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 01:15:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA12844; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:14:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:14:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <83.5759323.2d63140d@aol.com> References: <83.5759323.2d63140d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:14:35 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1135113212==_ma============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"-Fdq71.0.e83.7kTC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53127 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1135113212==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Eric - >>Hi All - >> >You might recall there was a bit of a row at NASA over a leak to the >New York Times about finding hematite. That was before they finding >had been fully confirmed and the indicative data had been >triple-checked for reliability, so it's true that NASA is extremely >conservative about what it releases. "Dark Life" has a section on the Allen Hills meteorite story. They tell about how they made it all secret for a while so they could look over the data outside of public scrutiny, make sure they had it right, etc. That was then, and this is so much bigger - they can't afford to be wrong at this level. If there is life, you can imagine what that would do to the NASA budget, political considerations, etc. If they announce they they've got life signs and they turn out to be wrong, heads would be rolling at NASA like blueberries down the slope of a Martian crater wall. >That said, a reliable source tells me that the trenching done today >turned up a white (or very light) material. It looks like that >material may be soft, but at the moment it's hard to say because >it's been viewed with only secondary (nonscientific) cameras that >are used for engineering purposes. Wait a day or two for the high >resolution images taken from a better perspective. I can see the white stuff in the trenching images, but I thought it might have just been reflection off compacted soil imprinted by the wheel tread. It's kind of weird how it appears only on the high spots where the tread printed. Maybe it's hidden or there's not enough illumination in the low spots. >In the mean time, here's hoping that it's limestone or (Mars >willing) chalk! Oh hell, if we're just hoping about things, I'll >hope it's a big ol' fossil of a 2,500 cc capacity Mars skull! I've seen a statement in one of the press releases somewhere that "it's not limestone", and another about there being high sulfur content. Maybe some sort of gypsum, or volcanic ash sediment. I think gypsum and chalk are considered to be biologically mitigated formations, but I don't know if that's unanimous yet among geologists. > >Best regards, > >Erik Baard --============_-1135113212==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?)
Eric -

Hi All -

You might recall there was a bit of a row at NASA over a leak to the New York Times about finding hematite.  That was before they finding had been fully confirmed and the indicative data had been triple-checked for reliability, so it's true that NASA is extremely conservative about what it releases.

"Dark Life" has a section on the Allen Hills meteorite story. They tell about how they made it all secret for a while so they could look over the data outside of public scrutiny, make sure they had it right, etc. That was then, and this is so much bigger - they can't afford to be wrong at this level. If there is life, you can imagine what that would do to the NASA budget, political considerations, etc. If they announce they they've got life signs and they turn out to be wrong, heads would be rolling at NASA like blueberries down the slope of a Martian crater wall.

That said, a reliable source tells me that the trenching done today turned up a white (or very light) material.  It looks like that material may be soft, but at the moment it's hard to say because it's been viewed with only secondary (nonscientific) cameras that are used for engineering purposes.  Wait a day or two for the high resolution images taken from a better perspective.

I can see the white stuff in the trenching images, but I thought it might have just been reflection off compacted soil imprinted by the wheel tread. It's kind of weird how it appears only on the high spots where the tread printed. Maybe it's hidden or there's not enough illumination in the low spots.

In the mean time, here's hoping that it's limestone or (Mars willing) chalk!  Oh hell, if we're just hoping about things, I'll hope it's a big ol' fossil of a 2,500 cc capacity Mars skull!

I've seen a statement in one of the press releases somewhere that  "it's not limestone", and another about there being high sulfur content. Maybe some sort of gypsum, or volcanic ash sediment. I think gypsum and chalk are considered to be biologically mitigated formations, but I don't know if that's unanimous yet among geologists.


Best regards,

Erik Baard

--============_-1135113212==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 01:20:52 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA14843; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:20:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:20:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:20:02 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA14822 Resent-Message-ID: <"JjpAZ2.0.rd3.GpTC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53128 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:14 PM +0700 2/17/04, explorecraft wrote: > >One consideration is that zip will like pebbles > better than sand, despite the fact both are lifeless > erosion products. Why pebbles better? I took a rectangle out of the surface of a single smooth berry, and a same-sized rectangle of a sand field. They look rather similar in general appearance, with the berry having an apparently (to my eye) more complicated grainy surface. The result surprised me, because it looked like there was more 'stuff' and finer grain - IOW more to compress - in the berry image. But it compressed better than the sand. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 01:27:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA17986; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:26:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:26:50 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Spirit's Rocks Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:25:11 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <48.27e7b40a.2d62bc1f@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"LtC9K3.0.-O4.PvTC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53129 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Spot on the lack of erosion analysis. What's interesting is how they mostly orient themselves pointy-end-up... ...planetary air-bag self-defense... haha -----Original Message----- From: Erikbaard@aol.com [mailto:Erikbaard@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17 07:37 To: knagel@gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spirit's Rocks In a message dated 2/16/04 4:08:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, knagel@gis.net writes: Is all that sharp stuff deposited by volcanic activity or meteor strikes? Or something else. Couldn't it be a matter of what didn't happen? Lack of erosion on a dry surface with thin air, and little geological activity (to melt and consume rocks) to boot? My guess is that whatever rocks were made through normal processes at the tail end of Mars' watery/denser atmospheric phase were left as is, and impacts kicked up new ones. Erik From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 01:50:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA26341; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:49:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:49:27 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:49:13 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA26321 Resent-Message-ID: <"UAk9z3.0.XR6.dEUC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53130 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:25 PM -0900 2/16/04, Horace Heffner wrote: >I guess I am now nitpicking since we now both know for sure what you mean >and it is all just a matter of terminology. However, I still think the >notion that compression to 70 percent of original size vs 88 percent is 2.5 >times more compression is misleading. By this yardstick a compression to >96 percent of original size would be 4 times more than a compression to 99 >percent of original size when in fact neither compression is significant. >It seems to me that if something compresses twice as well then it should be >half the size after both sets of data are compressed. By this yardstick >the ball compresses to about 80 percent of the size of the sand and thus >compresses about 20 percent more. This small difference it seems to me is >easily accounted for by the uniform nature of the ball and its >comparatively flat lighting vs the graininess of the "sand" and its myriad >angles of lighting. OK, I'm mathematically challenged. I used Stuffit Deluxe, and it displays how much disk space was 'saved', and the 30% space savings displayed for the berry file was 2.5 times the 12% for the sand. I never considered the numerical specifics to be terribly relevant. Just a one-shot tryout of the idea. But again, I found it surprising that the algorithm did seem to catch that distinctive patterning in the body of the berry. I guess I was never really sure if it wasn't either JPEG or even my own perception messing with lots of little random grains that results in the appearance of a slight structure in the berry surfaces close to pixel resolution. But the comparison to the more random sand grains at the same level seems to show that the patterned structure is indeed real. And that, after all, may be the significant thing. There's patterning in snowflakes, but that doesn't mean they are biological structures. Maybe Martian volcano/impact ash droplets falling thorough a strange atmosphere crystallize in complicated patterns too. However the berries appear to have 'grown' in strings and even fused chains while lying there in the sediment matrix, and not just tumbled in there. Concretions can develop in semi-crystalline arrangements, but by then it's starting to look pretty odd. Such formations are often biologically mitigated in some way if created in a wet environment. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 01:55:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA28103; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:55:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:55:26 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:55:08 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"AsJSu3.0.3t6.DKUC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53131 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:49 PM -1000 2/16/04, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Maybe Martian volcano/impact ash droplets falling thorough a strange atmosphere crystallize in complicated ! >patterns too. Actually, I didn't write that - my outbox copy shows no "!" or carriage return. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 01:57:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA28538; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:56:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:56:48 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:55:12 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <125.2acf297d.2d632dc6@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Lhjev2.0.sz6.VLUC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53133 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Which implies that they have serious equipment issues they are not admitting. I doubt they would recognize a fossil if it walked up and posed for them, much less hide it. < I simply don't regard them as being that smart. They do, after all, work for government, a form of unemployment insurance. > -----Original Message----- From: Erikbaard@aol.com [mailto:Erikbaard@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17 15:42 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) In a message dated 2/17/04 2:17:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, pariah@explorecraft.com writes: The point regards _uninterpreted_ datasets, not interpreted data with all the reputation baggage that carries. I understand that, but even "raw" data has to be determined to be reliable before distributed. NASA is a slow-moving, bloated bureaucracy but I don't think they are hiding fossils or something equally compelling. I'm sure the data will be released eventually (probably before long), constituting a delay but not censorship. Erik From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 01:57:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA28590; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:56:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:56:53 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:55:16 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"yUPgo3.0.c-6.aLUC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53134 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This leads me to wondering if I am the only person on this planet who thinks they ought to release at least some of the data. Getting lonely out here... -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17 16:15 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Eric - Hi All - You might recall there was a bit of a row at NASA over a leak to the New York Times about finding hematite. That was before they finding had been fully confirmed and the indicative data had been triple-checked for reliability, so it's true that NASA is extremely conservative about what it releases. "Dark Life" has a section on the Allen Hills meteorite story. They tell about how they made it all secret for a while so they could look over the data outside of public scrutiny, make sure they had it right, etc. That was then, and this is so much bigger - they can't afford to be wrong at this level. If there is life, you can imagine what that would do to the NASA budget, political considerations, etc. If they announce they they've got life signs and they turn out to be wrong, heads would be rolling at NASA like blueberries down the slope of a Martian crater wall. That said, a reliable source tells me that the trenching done today turned up a white (or very light) material. It looks like that material may be soft, but at the moment it's hard to say because it's been viewed with only secondary (nonscientific) cameras that are used for engineering purposes. Wait a day or two for the high resolution images taken from a better perspective. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 01:58:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA28495; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:56:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:56:44 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:55:02 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"FUFvz3.0.9z6.RLUC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53132 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hmm, this is going to be difficult, I can see. first, when I say 'zip will like pebbles..." I meant exactly what you discovered: pebbles compress better than sand. Not sure just how to rephrase it more coherently, but I did not disagree with your zip analysis. (semantix interfering with communication? ;^) two, Pebbles compress better since run-slices across pebbles will be relatively uniform, despite apparent graininess. Across sand compression searches will yield long random strings that can't be further compressed. Using a 2dimensional compression could be instructive. > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17 16:20 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: Marsberry vs. Sand: ZIP likes the berry > > > At 2:14 PM +0700 2/17/04, explorecraft wrote: > > > >One consideration is that zip will like pebbles > > better than sand, despite the fact both are lifeless > > erosion products. > > Why pebbles better? I took a rectangle out of the surface of a > single smooth berry, and a same-sized rectangle of a sand field. > They look rather similar in general appearance, with the berry > having an apparently (to my eye) more complicated grainy surface. > The result surprised me, because it looked like there was more > 'stuff' and finer grain - IOW more to compress - in the berry > image. But it compressed better than the sand. > > - Rick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 08:20:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA30641; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:18:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:18:45 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:23:23 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Resent-Message-ID: <"GX7jb.0.iU7.bxZC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53135 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:55 PM 2/17/4, explorecraft wrote: >This leads me to wondering > if I am the only person on this planet > who thinks they ought > to release at least some of the data. > >Getting lonely out here... It certainly would be nice to see the raw spectrographic data in graphic form, but such data without expert interpretation would be meaningful to only a very small audience. Their affiliated scientists would of course like a first shot at it, though the reason it is not posted like the photos is assumed lack of public interest. BTW, I don't know if it is still true, but in its heyday NASA tended to hire only in the top 1% of a graduating class. A lot of those folks have since retired, and there is not the huge deluge of scientists and engineers wanting to work there that there was in the moonshot 60's. Also of interest is that JPL is run by the California Institute of Technology which is well known for only accepting genius level students as undergrads. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 09:20:33 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA03137; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:18:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:18:31 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007001c3f4d3$e9651ae0$8837fea9@cpq> References: <007001c3f4d3$e9651ae0$8837fea9@cpq> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:18:58 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: More con-fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"6dl-P3.0.xm.dpaC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53136 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene posted > >In general, unless I am reading this incorrectly here are some conclusions: > >1) The best result of all (f=73) uses LIGHT WATER, a Ni foil cathode >and lithium sulphate electrolyte and low current density. > >2) Substituting heavy water for light water lowers the excess power > >3) Substituting palladium for Nickel lowers the excess power > >4) Raising the current density lowers the excess power > >5) Substituting potassium for lithium lowers the excess power > Wow that was really interesting. 2 is just the opposite of what I would have expected. 3 is just the opposite of what I would have expected, I'm pleased to see that Ni can be used. 5 is very interesting too, has anyone tried substituting Li6? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 09:37:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA12769; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:35:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:35:08 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:39:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Tubes in Spirit photos Resent-Message-ID: <"u_jEk2.0.T73.C3bC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53137 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:44 PM 2/16/4, Horace Heffner wrote: >However, as Eric Baard says, since it's wishful thinking, might as well >wish for something cool - like little critters scurrying about! 8^) Ooops! That should have said: "as Erik Baard says ...". Sorry! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 10:40:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA13823; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:38:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:38:30 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:03:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"2HWhm3.0.rN3.b-bC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53138 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think if you have a contact at NASA that will return your emails, ask for details about how the raw images are converted to JPG. I was surprised to find that high quality JPGs can be generated which are indistinguishable from the source TIFF images, yet still having good compression (>10:1). It all depends on the image and the software settings. If you read the NASA website carefully, they are in fact arguing over the spec. data. Which is why we're not seeing it. I can wait a few weeks. What's the rush? BTW, what happened to the Maestro website. Half the times that I try to access it, it's down. What's up with that??? K. PS: While we're on the subject of "documents we'd like to see made public" can I suggest a few? 1) Materials involved in drafting the 2002 Bush/Cheney Energy Bill. 2) Presidental Daily Briefs of the summer preceding Sept 2001. 3) Redacted sections of the initial Sept 11th report. 4) CIA intelligence reports about Iraq prior to the second Gulf War. 5) Etc etc etc I'll leave Bush's National Guard records to the fools who seem to think all of the above is of lesser importance... -----Original Message----- From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 4:55 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) This leads me to wondering if I am the only person on this planet who thinks they ought to release at least some of the data. Getting lonely out here... -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2004 February 17 16:15 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Eric - Hi All - You might recall there was a bit of a row at NASA over a leak to the New York Times about finding hematite. That was before they finding had been fully confirmed and the indicative data had been triple-checked for reliability, so it's true that NASA is extremely conservative about what it releases. "Dark Life" has a section on the Allen Hills meteorite story. They tell about how they made it all secret for a while so they could look over the data outside of public scrutiny, make sure they had it right, etc. That was then, and this is so much bigger - they can't afford to be wrong at this level. If there is life, you can imagine what that would do to the NASA budget, political considerations, etc. If they announce they they've got life signs and they turn out to be wrong, heads would be rolling at NASA like blueberries down the slope of a Martian crater wall. That said, a reliable source tells me that the trenching done today turned up a white (or very light) material. It looks like that material may be soft, but at the moment it's hard to say because it's been viewed with only secondary (nonscientific) cameras that are used for engineering purposes. Wait a day or two for the high resolution images taken from a better perspective. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 10:45:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA16757; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:43:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:43:33 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:48:10 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Matchstick lichen measurements and decaying balls Resent-Message-ID: <"uOXpJ.0.n54.K3cC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53139 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looking at Sol 22 Opportunity microscopic images, especially: there are lots of good examples of the lichen matchsticks, especially where the lichen has overgrown rock surfaces, like at 606,844 in the above photo. This gives a good opportunity to measure the stalks, as they some are all laid out straight over the rock surface, and it appears they are about 14 pixels long. At 20 pixels per mm, that would be about 0.7 mm. Most of the white "rocks" or balls in this photo look like they might be decaying, some more than others. They are all covered with fuzzy stuff too, and it is not frost-like, so it looks like they have been there quite a while. Many are settled down into or partly buried in the local medium or crust, whatever it is. They all have a somewhat fibrous look in this photo. It makes me want to speculate that the white layer under the top crust may consist of decayed or decaying fibrous (ball) material. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 11:27:00 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA05435; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:23:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:23:28 -0800 Message-ID: <20040217192245.55259.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:22:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: More con-fusion To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ifsx-2.0.tK1.mecC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53140 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Miley's paper from last year may further enlighten: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MileyGHreviewoftr.pdf Miley gives an excelent overall review of the LENR field and presents his model involving 'virtual neutron' formation associated with charge accumulation and hydrogen/deuteron flow at highly loaded interfaces. In answer to why he is recommending such small wattage experiments, it seems that the reason is two-fold. Basically he likes to sputter coat very small amounts of metals onto ceramic and these electrodes must of necessity be limited to milliwatts of current, and second he seems to feel that power measurements are more reliable in this range. As to why that should be the case, I believe that it involves the wealth of extremely high precision meters and test equipment that have become available to supply the semiconductor industry. It doesn't hurt to have access to one of the finest labs in the country either. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 12:41:13 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA16150; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:37:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:37:26 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA censorship (and now white stuff?) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:36:45 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5iu43016egsj2nknbiojg5covc9kqmp6ni@4ax.com> References: <83.5759323.2d63140d@aol.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA15820 Resent-Message-ID: <"RnJPB.0.Iy3.5kdC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53141 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to explorecraft's message of Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:15:02 +0700: Hi, [snip] > >The point regards _uninterpreted_ datasets, > not interpreted data with all the reputation baggage that carries. > >Data censorship is a travesty. > >NASA/JPL has something to hide, suggesting internal arguments > between the ringmasters and the technical serfs. > >The white stuff is visible at > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/f/023/1F130227421EFF0400R0013R0M1.JPG > As far as I can see, the "white stuff" on this photo has the same colour as parts of the distant rocks. It looks like the wheels have removed the dust layer revealing underlying bedrock. BTW with a largely CO2 atmosphere, it seems likely that many surface rocks would be carbonates. Some of these are quite soft. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 12:45:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA18020; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:42:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:42:24 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: More con-fusion Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:41:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <53v430h9iscrt58odhvicsb25hesddtljc@4ax.com> References: <007001c3f4d3$e9651ae0$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA17951 Resent-Message-ID: <"37KXH3.0.OP4.lodC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53142 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:18:58 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Wow that was really interesting. 2 is just the opposite of what I >would have expected. 3 is just the opposite of what I would have >expected, I'm pleased to see that Ni can be used. 5 is very >interesting too, has anyone tried substituting Li6? What would you expect such a substitution to lead to? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 14:26:34 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06724; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:23:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:23:54 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:28:30 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: I thank you Terry Blanton! Resent-Message-ID: <"i-I5J1.0.-e1.wHfC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53143 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:44 PM 2/12/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Pull out those 3D glasses again for this one: > > >-post-B019R1.jpg> > >which should make HH happy. They have his submerged ball in 3D! > >I swear those balls look like they have peach fuzz on 'em. Thank you for the Butterfinger Simpson-o-vision 3D glasses! What an experience! It was incredible! Stunning 3D with fine details. I tried to make my own with cellophane from a craft shop, but it didn't work. Wrong colors I guess. The above JPG makes it all seem so very clear. Interesting that the balls there too all seem at first glane to be in a high state of decay. Onbe of the best examples I've seen in fact. However, looking at them in 3D it is pretty darn clear that it is NOT just decay. The little white balls are mostly water, i.e. ice, and they are sublimating. The white balls are practically little snowballs! The fuzzy stuff on the surface I think is mostly leftover minerals, and possibly connective stuff, like cellulose. There are lots of tiny white things in the ice though, about a pixel or two wide or so, and they do not seem to sublimate. I wonder what those things are? They look a bit like the matchheads. They are throughout the snowballs and the sand below. The little balls being mostly water would not be inconsistent with being lichen fruiting bodies, however. Nor would it be inconsistent with the blueberries being snowballs that ended up accreted and fossilized. The "sand" in the above photo, however, looks a lot more like snow or frost mixed with sand than it looks like a lichen. I'd sure like to take a look at a photo of the matchstick lichen in 3D. I'll have to browse around for one. I'd like to see the Anderson Lichen in 3D too. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 00:36:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA32074; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:36:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:36:04 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:40:47 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Shag rug soil Resent-Message-ID: <"vT2EM2.0.2r7.qFoC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53144 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The above 3D press image of martian soil taken by Spirit looks like a picture of a shag rug. It is simply a mass of vertical fibers or tubes. WIthout 3D glasses it looks flat. With 3D it looks like a sculptured shag rug. The fibers on top are white, grey and black, like they are dirty. However, some are pure black, at least on the top part which is visible. There appears to be an underlying layer of fibers that is all white though. Really very strange. I wonder what the NASA folks made of that! There aren't many stalks (carpet fibers) that look like matchsticks. But no big surprise there. This is on the far side of Mars from Opportunity. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 05:54:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA26183; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 05:53:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 05:53:02 -0800 Message-ID: <40336E1F.4050202@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:52:31 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: I thank you Terry Blanton! References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dobRL3.0.3P6.zusC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53145 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >Thank you for the Butterfinger Simpson-o-vision 3D glasses! What an >experience! It was incredible! Stunning 3D with fine details. > One must have properly calibrated scientific instruments to do good research. >The above JPG makes it all seem so very clear. > I'm beginning to wonder if the white balls are some type of spore? >The little balls being mostly water would not be inconsistent with being >lichen fruiting bodies, however. Nor would it be inconsistent with the >blueberries being snowballs that ended up accreted and fossilized. > I'm still voting for the blue balls being hematite since the level detected decreased significantly where the rover carrier bounced. >The "sand" in the above photo, however, looks a lot more like snow or frost >mixed with sand than it looks like a lichen. I'd sure like to take a look >at a photo of the matchstick lichen in 3D. I'll have to browse around for >one. I'd like to see the Anderson Lichen in 3D too. > All the 3D images are in the press galleries. However, you can google "Mars 3D Images" and find sites which have aggregated the images including many from the baby rover, Pathfinder. In addition to rover web pages, you should visit the main JPL page for additional information: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/index.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 07:03:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA00960; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:01:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:01:28 -0800 Message-ID: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:00:56 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shag rug soil References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"u4V1z.0.wE.7vtC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53146 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >There aren't many stalks (carpet fibers) that look like matchsticks. But >no big surprise there. > Thanks, Horace. Somehow, I had missed this one. It reminds me of something I described earlier where ice crystals lifted the surface layer of Georgia red clay. Here's a couple of web pages which explain how to create the 3D images using Photoshop: http://publish.uwo.ca/~schuppli/educator/info/3d.html http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/winrr/3dstereo/3dhowto.htm Anyone out there care to give it a go with some of the l/r raw images? If it works, I might spring for Photoshop to try it myself. Monteverde? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 07:29:32 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA16113; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:27:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:27:17 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:31:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: I thank you Terry Blanton! Resent-Message-ID: <"iqY1A1.0.ex3.KHuC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53147 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:52 AM 2/18/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >>The little balls being mostly water would not be inconsistent with being >>lichen fruiting bodies, however. Nor would it be inconsistent with the >>blueberries being snowballs that ended up accreted and fossilized. >> > >I'm still voting for the blue balls being hematite since the level >detected decreased significantly where the rover carrier bounced. Yes, that is what I mean by accretion, that hemitite is accreted in the image of the snowballs. I'm assuming the snowballs are fruiting bodies and consist mostly of water, probably mostly in a gel form, in a waterproof sack. Fruiting bodies are essentially a structured bag which carries the mix of fungal spores and bacteria required to form the lichen. Lichen is a multiple species critter, i.e. a self-farming critter. On Mars such a body would probably require an unusually high water content to survive. If such an object, frozen, were buried in fine dust, and then decayed, the impression left in the soil would be filled with accreted material ... hematite. > >>The "sand" in the above photo, however, looks a lot more like snow or frost >>mixed with sand than it looks like a lichen. I'd sure like to take a look >>at a photo of the matchstick lichen in 3D. I'll have to browse around for >>one. I'd like to see the Anderson Lichen in 3D too. >> > >All the 3D images are in the press galleries. However, you can google >"Mars 3D Images" and find sites which have aggregated the images >including many from the baby rover, Pathfinder. In addition to rover >web pages, you should visit the main JPL page for additional information: > >http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/index.html Yes. The only other detailed 3D soil photo I've found was mentioned in the "Shag rug soil" thread. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 07:43:20 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA25534; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:41:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:41:40 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:46:10 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shag rug soil Resent-Message-ID: <"wedhG.0.rE6.pUuC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53148 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:00 AM 2/18/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>There aren't many stalks (carpet fibers) that look like matchsticks. But >>no big surprise there. >> > >Thanks, Horace. Somehow, I had missed this one. It reminds me of >something I described earlier where ice crystals lifted the surface >layer of Georgia red clay. Yes, indeed. I was thinking the about the same thing when I first looked at it. It is no wander the airbags make splat marks if that is the kind of soil they are landing in. However, the subject microscopic photo is from the Spirit site. I don't recall if Spirit made such dramatic splat marks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 08:38:07 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA29161; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:36:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:36:53 -0800 Message-ID: <40339485.8010404@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:36:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shag rug soil References: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pc17Z2.0.b77.bIvC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53149 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Anyone out there care to give it a go with some of the l/r raw > images? If it works, I might spring for Photoshop to try it myself. > > Monteverde? Oops. These sites show how to use Photoshop to make pseudo 3D from a single 2D image. This software does the real thing from l/r images. AND it's a lot less expensive than Photoshop. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 08:44:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA32641; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:42:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:42:41 -0800 Message-ID: <403395E1.5030805@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:42:09 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shag rug soil References: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> <40339485.8010404@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40339485.8010404@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ad76I3.0.zz7.0OvC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53150 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Oops. These sites show how to use Photoshop to make pseudo 3D from a > single 2D image. > > This software does the real thing from l/r images. AND it's a lot > less expensive than Photoshop. (Pssst. . . attach the URL, Terry) Oh, okay. http://www.mission3-d.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 12:16:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA22983; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:14:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:14:33 -0800 From: Erikbaard@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:13:50 EST Subject: life on the moon? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_d1.591b41b.2d65217e_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 Resent-Message-ID: <"qEHr13.0.3d5.eUyC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53151 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_d1.591b41b.2d65217e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all - Just kidding. Here's a lunar sphere, to help put those on Mars into perspective: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040215.html That said, a NASA-funded astrobiologist I interviewed today for an unrelated piece (science history and culture) said that he's not entirely convinced that the spheres on Mars aren't fossils. He thinks it's extremely unlikely, but still not entirely impossible. Best regards, Erik Baard --part1_d1.591b41b.2d65217e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all -

Just kidding.  Here's a lunar sphere, to help put those on Mars into pe= rspective:

http://antwrp.gsf= c.nasa.gov/apod/ap040215.html

That said, a NASA-funded astrobiologist I interviewed today for an unrelated= piece (science history and culture) said that he's not entirely convinced t= hat the spheres on Mars aren't fossils.  He thinks it's extremely unlik= ely, but still not entirely impossible.

Best regards,

Erik Baard --part1_d1.591b41b.2d65217e_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 12:56:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA09773; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:53:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:53:24 -0800 Message-ID: <003601c3f661$06f6bd00$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: life on the moon? Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:51:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA09694 Resent-Message-ID: <"wPHM33.0.YO2.43zC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53152 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: > Just kidding. Here's a lunar sphere, to help put those on Mars into > perspective: Don't renege on that thought just yet, Eric... it's likely to be more probably than you think - i.e. that there is a good chance of "ball-type" life on our moon What I am referring to is Alan Shepard's infamous one-armed golf stunt some 30+yrs ago on Apollo 11, where he sliced a couple of unsterilized golf balls, likely to be accompanied by a veritable zoo of terrestrial microorganisms... a few of which were probably hardy enough to survive and multiply, devouring those Titelists at a rate of a few milligrams per century until all that tasty gupta rubber is consumed, by then some few should have evolved enough new genes (faster evolution due to solar radiation) to digest moon dust and produce excess heat from cold fusion... ...so there you have it... Jones Is the 'potassium-channel' the reason many of these guys end up looking like worms? http://www.hypography.com/article.cfm?id=32771 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 13:59:12 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA13374; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:57:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:57:28 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040218164255.01cb5bd0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:56:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: National Engineers Week Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"du87l2.0.wG3.7_zC01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53153 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Calling all geeks! Did you know that Feb. 22 - 28 is National Engineers Week? See the University of California cable TV channel: http://www.uctv.tv I really appreciate this channel. I wish other universities would broadcast lectures. They should collaborate with the U. Cal. system. Wired magazine said that MIT has decided to put all course work on the web, in their OpenCourseWare project. I looked at the Dept. of Modern Languages Japanese section. It did not have much. Many of the links were broken. Speaking of geeks, people who understand technology should sign the petition about voting machines here: http://www.verifiedvoting.org/ - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 14:24:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA27284; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:21:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:21:43 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040218170153.01cb9ab0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:21:37 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: life on the moon? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"LgbGp1.0.Cg6.sL-C01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53154 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene writes: > What I am referring to is Alan Shepard's infamous one-armed golf > stunt some 30+yrs ago on Apollo 11, where he sliced a couple of > unsterilized golf balls, likely to be accompanied by a veritable zoo of > terrestrial microorganisms... Yup. Extensive efforts have been made to sterilize recent Mars landers, but I bet they have failed. Ever since I heard that bacteria has taken up residence in much of the world's heavy water, and this bacterial loves to metabolize poisonous heavy metals, I have been thinking that life in some form will survive just about anywhere. It is almost a scenario out of one of the "Jurassic Park" movies. Heavy water as an environment for life did not exist anywhere on earth until 1940. What it amounts to is that we are probably terraforming Mars much earlier than planned. See: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42667,00.html I read somewhere that Neil Armstrong began to doubt the efficacy of the lunar quarantine room when he saw a line of ants invading it. Just in case you do not have enough to worry about along these lines, here is a columnist who thinks that bioterrorism will soon become a lot easier: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49525-2004Feb17.html "The Next Plague" By Anne Applebaum Wednesday, February 18, 2004; Page A19 QUOTE: All of us are dependent on what scientists tell us. And a handful of scientists are saying, to anyone who will listen, that most of us don't understand the implications of their research, because if we did, we'd be terrified -- as I was, when I began to listen. According to one molecular biologist who should know, there are already 20,000 labs in the world where a single person will be able to synthesize any existing virus within the next decade. In the same 20,000 labs, five people with $2 million will be able to create an enhanced pathogen -- meaning a virus that could infect people who have been immunized with conventional vaccines -- and kill perhaps a billion of them. With an additional $3 million, the same five people could build a lab from scratch, using equipment purchased online. END QUOTE For the record, *I* am not dependent on what scientists tell me. I do not trust scientists as far as I can throw them. In the immortal words of Stan Szpak: "scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 14:46:09 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06424; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:44:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:44:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> References: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:44:02 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Shag rug soil Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA06380 Resent-Message-ID: <"AKTBK3.0.Ka1.-g-C01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53155 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:00 AM -0500 2/18/04, Terry Blanton wrote: >Anyone out there care to give it a go with some of the l/r raw images? If it works, I might spring for Photoshop to try it myself. > >Monteverde? I'm still trying to figure out how to get a half-decent color image out of the multiple filter images. All I got was psychedelic colors, but they were similar to that NASA false color PR image of Snout (Opportunity Ridge). Those new shag images also have lots of structured lines and circles of very tiny spheres. Maybe they're sand grains captured by a thread something sticky like dust on a spider web, but the even spacing and sometimes successive size differences suggests something grown-in-place. I guess an inorganic accretion of ice or precipitating mineral could form dendrite structures easily enough, like Terry's soil explanation. Very fine hairlike structures could be created by impacts or volcanism which could seed fine lines of mineral/ice growth accumulation. Why would inorganic spheres sprout additional spheres in a line otherwise? Maybe Bill Beaty's airthreads? (He he - we use our own brand of physics here on Vortex) Charge might direct tiny microcurrents of vapor away from the mass of the nearest sphere(s), which might result in chains of spheres. Still the organic explanation seems attractive to explain the structures given the ability of microbes to adapt to extreme environments and other factors. I doubt airthreads can explain how spheres grow several millimeters across from pinpoint beginnings. I bet we'll need a $$$berry-return mission for a really definitive answer. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 17:01:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA11664; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:59:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:59:33 -0800 Message-ID: <40340A94.5070102@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:00:04 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shag rug soil References: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RH9ZH2.0.As2.qf0D01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53156 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Maybe they're sand grains captured by a thread something sticky like dust on a spider web . . . > Magnetically aligned particles, according to the latest explanation. So, why do some curve? BTW, there's some interesting layering or threading in the latest Spirit micrographs. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 17:15:19 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA19288; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:14:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:14:20 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:19:00 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shag rug soil Resent-Message-ID: <"KDkuG.0.Jj4.ht0D01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53157 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:44 PM 2/18/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >I'm still trying to figure out how to get a half-decent color image out of >the multiple filter images. All I got was psychedelic colors, but they >were similar to that NASA false color PR image of Snout (Opportunity >Ridge). Sounds like you are using images shot from slightly differing positions - which NASA does in order to get stereo images. > >Those new shag images also have lots of structured lines and circles of >very tiny spheres. Maybe they're sand grains captured by a thread >something sticky like dust on a spider web, but the even spacing and >sometimes successive size differences suggests something grown-in-place. I >guess an inorganic accretion of ice or precipitating mineral could form >dendrite structures easily enough, like Terry's soil explanation. > I can not see any strings of very tiny spheres in the fiber-like strands in the 3D shag rug picture at . I wonder if it is a difference in monitors or 3D glasses or something? I'm using a 19 inch Elements display for most viewing. It seems to be pretty crispy clear. Blowing up images doesn't seem to change what I can see in GIMP in the 3D photo, and certainly doesn't show stings of balls in the fibers, so it probably is not the monitor. The 3D image really shows the underlying white fibers very clearly. I just can't figure out why we see differing things in the same image. This sounds like an important thing to figure out. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 17:55:34 2004 Received: from ultra1.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra1.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra1.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i1J1tWxJ005500; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:55:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra1.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i1J1tRlf005481; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:55:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:55:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra1.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c3f68b$722fad00$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> From: "rebrady" To: References: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> <40340A94.5070102@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Shag rug soil Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:55:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53158 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An article in the January 31st Science News describes self growing nanofibers (worms) which in this case are only a few atoms in diameter. The article shows that Nickel balls grow "socks" of carbon behind them. Could any of this ultimately apply? Bob Brady From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 20:37:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14442; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:36:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:36:42 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:36:16 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: This look like a fossil to you? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id UAA14369 Resent-Message-ID: <"GJLay.0.bX3.Or3D01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53159 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try this: http://www.highsurf.com/misc/marsfossil.html I saw that structure in the very first microscopic images from Opportunity and said it looked like a crinoid. This is a repeated structure I have seen in several small pebbles. Usually they are turned "bottom" end up (the vertex where the "arms" join or originate is straight up at the camera), but another in one of the first images was sideways and appeared to be made out of the lighter colored material. This one looks great, is a good side view of two and perhaps part of a third arm. It may be hematite - at least it looks dark. Very similar to some hematite samples I've seen, although that repeating crinoid/arm structure is odd - never saw that before. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 21:11:34 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA02313; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:10:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:10:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:29:28 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Shag rug soil Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"leugo3.0.4a.QL4D01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53160 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - At 4:19 PM -0900 2/18/04, Horace Heffner wrote: >I wonder if it is a difference in monitors or 3D glasses or something? Yup, my 3D glasses are from Freddy's Dead, yours are from Spy Kids. Actually, the chains I was looking at were in the raw images, not the 3D composites. May be easier to see in the normal images. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 21:13:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA03374; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:12:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:12:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40340A94.5070102@rtpatlanta.com> References: <40337E28.5050802@rtpatlanta.com> <40340A94.5070102@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:39:44 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Shag rug soil Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"ElQbA2.0.cq.tM4D01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53161 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - Thought that's what it might be, because of how similar the patterns look to magnetic marbles. Also in the trench, freshly disturbed material seems to have clumped up in dendrite-thready structures. - Rick >Magnetically aligned particles, according to the latest explanation. So, why do some curve? BTW, there's some interesting layering or threading in the latest Spirit micrographs. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 23:40:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA03183; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:39:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:39:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:40:03 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: life on the moon? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1134946082==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZOWp.0.en.dW6D01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53162 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1134946082==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Hi all - > >Just kidding. Here's a lunar sphere, to help put those on Mars into >perspective: No kidding, have you ever read what Richard C Hoagland has to say on the subject? --============_-1134946082==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: life on the moon?
Hi all -
Just kidding.  Here's a lunar sphere, to help put those on Mars into perspective:

No kidding, have you ever read what Richard C Hoagland has to say on the subject?
--============_-1134946082==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 05:48:00 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA30266; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:47:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:47:01 -0800 Message-ID: <00dd01c3f6ee$da1e8b30$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: Subject: Shiny Surfaces? Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:46:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"uXOeS2.0.sO7.LvBD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53163 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How could a rock on Mars have a shiny surface? Am I seeing it correctly? http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/025/1M130404566EFF0400P2953M2M1.JPG Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 06:10:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA09555; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:08:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:08:51 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:10:06 -0600 Subject: shiny Message-ID: <20040219.081122.-1991173.2.wardsworld@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_5965.3481.03b3 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,8-11,13-15,16-32767 From: Ward Johanson Resent-Message-ID: <"5rMcD3.0.FL2.oDCD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53164 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_5965.3481.03b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see the shiny surfaces to which you refer and the same forms seem to hold themselves up. They resemble formed mud globs. Is it Spirit Poop? How could a rock on Mars have a shiny surface? Am I seeing it correctly? http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/025/1M130404566EFF0400P295 3M2M1.JPG Craig Haynie (Houston) ----__JNP_000_5965.3481.03b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I see the shiny surfaces to which you = refer and=20 the same forms seem to hold themselves up. They resemble formed mud globs. = Is it=20 Spirit Poop?
 
How could a rock on Mars have a shiny surface? Am I seeing it=20 correctly?
 
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all= /1/m/025/1M130404566EFF0400P2953M2M1.JPG
 
Craig=20 Haynie (Houston)
 
----__JNP_000_5965.3481.03b3-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 07:12:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA10761; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:11:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:11:16 -0800 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: This look like a fossil to you? Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:23:35 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200402191023.35202.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"e-YcT1.0.5e2.J8DD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53165 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 18 February 2004 23:36, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Try this: > > http://www.highsurf.com/misc/marsfossil.html > > I saw that structure in the very first microscopic images from Opportunity > and said it looked like a crinoid. This is a repeated structure I have seen > in several small pebbles. Usually they are turned "bottom" end up (the > vertex where the "arms" join or originate is straight up at the camera), > but another in one of the first images was sideways and appeared to be made > out of the lighter colored material. This one looks great, is a good side > view of two and perhaps part of a third arm. It may be hematite - at least > it looks dark. Very similar to some hematite samples I've seen, although > that repeating crinoid/arm structure is odd - never saw that before. > > - Rick Just may have something, but a paleontologist would be more qualified than I. Just as interesting are what appear to be tracks in the pic from the web referenced by the e-mail. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 07:38:18 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA22670; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:36:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:36:15 -0800 Message-ID: <20040219153607.15746.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:36:07 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: shiny To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20040219.081122.-1991173.2.wardsworld@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Uj01v2.0.AY5.lVDD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53166 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: some form of globules, and shiny. whats the deal? agate, obsidian, and hematite all form nodules just like those, and if windblown dust were to polish them up, why shouldnt they be shiny? --- Ward Johanson wrote: > I see the shiny surfaces to which you refer and the > same forms seem to > hold themselves up. They resemble formed mud globs. > Is it Spirit Poop? > > How could a rock on Mars have a shiny surface? Am I > seeing it correctly? > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/025/1M130404566EFF0400P295 > 3M2M1.JPG > > Craig Haynie (Houston) > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 09:09:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA12326; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:07:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:07:40 -0800 Message-ID: <003601c3f70a$c7c6e420$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <20040219153607.15746.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: shiny Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:06:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2004 17:06:56.0850 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7B0EB20:01C3F70A] Resent-Message-ID: <"L9pPp2.0.Y03.RrED01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53167 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > some form of globules, and shiny. whats the deal? > agate, obsidian, and hematite all form nodules just > like those, and if windblown dust were to polish them > up, why shouldnt they be shiny? I suppose so. I've done a lot of hiking in the desert of West Texas, and I don't think I've seen a shiny rock polished by the wind, but I guess it makes sense. It just struck me as unusual when I look at it. Craig From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 09:51:13 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA04880; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:49:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:49:29 -0800 Message-ID: <20040219174910.94538.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:49:10 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: shiny To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <003601c3f70a$c7c6e420$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"eU_qE1.0.8C1.eSFD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53168 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i do a lot of hiking in the desert in az, and i do all the time. especially in drier areas. remember, wet and dust is going to equal mud dried on the rock. constantly dry dust and wind however, is going to polish and leave the polish in the open without covering it up. --- SnowDog wrote: > > some form of globules, and shiny. whats the deal? > > agate, obsidian, and hematite all form nodules > just > > like those, and if windblown dust were to polish > them > > up, why shouldnt they be shiny? > > I suppose so. I've done a lot of hiking in the > desert of West Texas, and I > don't think I've seen a shiny rock polished by the > wind, but I guess it > makes sense. It just struck me as unusual when I > look at it. > > Craig > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 11:22:09 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA27917; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:19:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:19:39 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:24:17 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: This look like a fossil to you? Resent-Message-ID: <"F-YjY.0.9q6.AnGD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53169 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:36 PM 2/18/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Try this: > >http://www.highsurf.com/misc/marsfossil.html > >I saw that structure in the very first microscopic images from Opportunity >and said it looked like a crinoid. This is a repeated structure I have >seen in several small pebbles. Usually they are turned "bottom" end up >(the vertex where the "arms" join or originate is straight up at the >camera), but another in one of the first images was sideways and appeared >to be made out of the lighter colored material. This one looks great, is a >good side view of two and perhaps part of a third arm. It may be hematite >- at least it looks dark. Very similar to some hematite samples I've seen, >although that repeating crinoid/arm structure is odd - never saw that >before. I still think we are seeing lichen fruiting bodies, not chrinoiod heads. Hey take on various forms, including spherical and disk shaped. The hole you see in the middle I think is not where a stalk was attached, but rather is called an ostiole, from which spores issue. I think we have seen a number of varieties of lichen similar to terrestrial lichens known as Crustose Lichens. They form a gelatenous surface crust (see for sample crust cross section) and produce fruiting bodies called perthecium, which have ostioles, or apical pores. Check out: look for "Verrucaria maura" and "perithecia", each with a minute apical pore, and also the microscopic image of "Pyrenocollema halodytes". I think the carpet like material we see in the 3D microscopic photo by Spirit at: may just be decomposing/sublimating lichen, where we get a good look at the underlying rhizinae and/or mycelium. Nothing like a good working hypothesis eh? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 14:25:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06876; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:24:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:24:36 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:24:20 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: This look like a fossil to you? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA06830 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ohxmx3.0.Oh1.aUJD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53170 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I guess I had better be clear that whenever I've mentioned crinoids, it has always been that there is structure having gross similarity to crinoids and is therefore a very specific, complicated, and possibly organic structure - not that crinoids themselves actually ever existed there. I'm helping make your argument by describing forms that seem to sit outside of typical inorganic mineral formations in their combination of complexity and symmetry. They could actually *be* fruiting bodies, bacteria colonies, something new and entirely different, or abiotic structures after all. I don't know what they are, but it seems to me that biology is a stronger contender that has been indicated by the comments coming out so far from 'official' sources. - Rick >At 10:24 AM -0900 2/19/04, Horace Heffner wrote: >I still think we are seeing lichen fruiting bodies, not chrinoiod heads. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 14:40:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA13658; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:37:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:37:34 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:42:20 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: This look like a fossil to you? Resent-Message-ID: <"vxZQx2.0.ML3.kgJD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53171 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:24 PM 2/19/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >I guess I had better be clear that whenever I've mentioned crinoids, it >has always been that there is structure having gross similarity to >crinoids and is therefore a very specific, complicated, and possibly >organic structure - not that crinoids themselves actually ever existed >there. My mistake. I assumed you were making a case for crinoid-like life-forms. I'm on a lichen kick so took issue with that (not that ANY hypothesis is actually unreasonable at this point!) A man whose only tool is a hammer thinks every problem looks like a nail! Come to think of it some lichens look like crinoids ... 8^) >I'm helping make your argument by describing forms that seem to sit >outside of typical inorganic mineral formations in their combination of >complexity and symmetry. They could actually *be* fruiting bodies, >bacteria colonies, something new and entirely different, or abiotic >structures after all. Yep, whatever life is there or has been there must be different in some respects ... unless spores were carried from one planet to the other via meteor impact debris or some such. >I don't know what they are, but it seems to me that biology is a stronger >contender that has been indicated by the comments coming out so far from >'official' sources. Amen to that. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 14:44:10 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA16290; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:42:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:42:02 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:46:44 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Familiar traits in terrestrial lichen Resent-Message-ID: <"MrUXf1.0.K-3.vkJD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53172 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Check out "Dimelaena thysanota" at the URL: That black and white mottled look seem familiar? Also locate "Bryoria fuscescens", at URL It's common name is "hair lichen", but notice the white tips! Little "matchsitck" lichen right here on earth. It seems to me completely plausible that Martian lichen-like species having various of the traits of terrestrial lichen could evolve, assuming that Mars at one time had plentiful water. It even seems probable when assuming that terrestrial lichen may be over 500 million yeas old and may be the ancestor of plants. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 19:21:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA14496; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:18:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:18:49 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c3f757$cec8fe00$a981b341@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Francis J. Stenger" Subject: Re: Heavy Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:17:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940644d1df5e4384999cacaafe08d0f7da5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"VdSk7.0.SY3.OoND01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53173 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The "Swartzchild" Radius, R = 2 Gm / c2 sets the limit of mass of a quark at about 1.73e-9 Kg or an energy E of about 1.6e8 joules. The radius of a quark = kq^2/E = 2.304e-28/E and when E goes over ~1.6e10 joules it approaches the Swartzchild radius of the particle/quark and they become "Black Holes". WIMPS? :-) Thus, there could be a variety of Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons with masses ranging from four times that of U238 to micrograms roaming around in the environment. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 19:24:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA16321; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:22:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:22:21 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: shiny Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:47:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <003601c3f70a$c7c6e420$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"8g5N61.0.w-3.jrND01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53174 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. The shiny rocks look much more like what I might expect volcanic spitballs to look like, glassy and somewhat misshapen. Quite distinct from the spherules we see on the surface. Why do we see these shiny rocks below the surface, but not on it? There must be a strong wind under that sand (grin). I wonder sometimes whether Horaces "mold" are in fact spherules on a micro scale. Rick, your alleged fossil find looks very intriguing. Here's hoping some sympathetic nutter at NASA will cause the microscopic camera to get us a closer look. It's a shame the Beagle blew a tyre, I think they had more specific tools to search for life. Our rovers are really "Rock Jocks"... K. -----Original Message----- From: SnowDog [mailto:SnowDog@GoldDirectory.com] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: shiny > some form of globules, and shiny. whats the deal? > agate, obsidian, and hematite all form nodules just > like those, and if windblown dust were to polish them > up, why shouldnt they be shiny? I suppose so. I've done a lot of hiking in the desert of West Texas, and I don't think I've seen a shiny rock polished by the wind, but I guess it makes sense. It just struck me as unusual when I look at it. Craig From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 19:40:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA24942; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:38:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:38:22 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:43:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shiny Surfaces? Resent-Message-ID: <"myQ5K.0.g56.j4OD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53175 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:46 AM 2/19/4, SnowDog wrote: >How could a rock on Mars have a shiny surface? Am I seeing it correctly? > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/025/1M130404566EFF0400P2953M >2M1.JPG > >Craig Haynie (Houston) They can be shiney because they are alive. They may be secreting a gel or liquid because when the trench was dug they were compressed and injured. You can fairly clearly see the damage to the ball on the bottom right, as well as see the underlying structure where the outer coating was removed or injured. The ball may consist of a partially gelatenous but tough cortex over what might be a mycelium core. Squeezing the ball may cause it to ooze from very many newly made tiny pore-like openings, or even to change its permeability to water, and possibly even to melt the water crystal/gel mix that it originally was before compression. Also of interest is the possibility that the soil temperature down a few inches may be a bit higher than at the surface, where things have seemed to be frozen. What could account for that? Chemical reactions might, and that is another possible indicator of life. Mars may be getting continually but slowly resurfaced with an new soil via nitrogen fixation and hydrocrbon creation via photosynthesis. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 19:43:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA26725; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:41:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:41:47 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:46:34 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shiny Surfaces? Resent-Message-ID: <"ZsmqB1.0.XX6.x7OD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53176 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I meant to say ou can fairly clearly see the damage to the ball on the bottom LEFT of the photo, not right. A rock is not likely to tear like that not likely to have the fibrous looking edges on the tear that can just barely be made out in the high def. photos. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 20:44:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA28317; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:43:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:43:24 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1134870022==_============" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:47:54 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Periphysis hypothesis Resent-Message-ID: <"T-RzX1.0.Pw6.h1PD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53177 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1134870022==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Finding that soralia are the terrestrial equivalent to the little white match heads I felt was somewhat of a substantiation of the Mars lichen hypothesis. To obtain a better substantiation, I decided to look for a terrestrial feature of the fruiting bodies I did not feal I had seen on Mars yet. This is then a prediction made as a result of a hypothesis, and not the other way around. (I realize I may have subconsciouosly noticed it though, so this is very unscientific!) Here is the definition: "Periphysis: a hair-like projection inside the ostiole of a perithecium or pycnidial conidioma. pl. periphyses." I found a good fit in the older microscopic images for Opportunity, namely the photo: 1M129514984EF0312P2953M2M1.JPG A clip of the feature is attached. This feature was on the far left border of the photo. You can see a little filament coming right up out of the ostiole of the perithecium. If that's an ostiole that is. If that osteole is on a perithecium. If that perithecium-like thing is really a fruiting body of a lichen. If lichen really exists on Mars. Well ... at least it's probably on Mars anyway! 8^) --============_-1134870022==_============ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="periphysis.JPG" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="periphysis.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEASABIAAD//gAXQ3JlYXRlZCB3aXRoIFRoZSBHSU1Q/9sAQwAB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB/8AACwgAnwB3AQEiAP/EAB4AAAICAwEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAcIBgkE BQoDAgAB/8QAPBAAAQMCBQIEBAQFAwQDAQAAAQIDBAURAAYHEiETMQgiQVEUYXGBCSMy kRVCobHwwdHhJDNS8RcYQ2L/2gAIAQEAAD8Ar/0l1YyZnqmSYrshPXSXQjpyEp5U6Ei4 SjngE9wP2GKffHRFqdSmzIVGR1W0PSClAb6q1he8AJVwbk257fY4rrh6Iaou0wVeNleo uMKUspIjoN7EAm5eAsQq449r4zv/AIP1RlMLnz6BMhsRW9xccjJCCm20i6HTyAebi+B3 TI1Wy9W2VNNFb7UgoUjp7rKSspIso2vf54Jedcx1+NWYNUMYDptMGxZRa4aSP/Ij5/0t jAzJnnMlY+BlLhENtJsCGG+bJCT2VyOPa/y9Maym5vq8yoOQURFOOyglCEJaQFJUE7eR cX5N+D/wb8qeHzOlQjLzZV4y26a0USEpSwtpRSDvsHAsp7g8kfbBpzNrJVI2nDmVKLRn 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wp/xDRWvZWbr1UeCo8ioPRqo4uKl94upeYXDKWHFq6CkqSoBIB9+4UzDr9pL4htRZ9Sq 9KfqDElSHjFmU2WlpoOKdJCNzqVG27aL+iQbXwvuoupWk1GqTuU8lUMNuuHbO6kCTFRD Qq6kORlKdWHllaSClVgAAfXCzZw1cq2TKtCVUM5V9eXnFX/haIzTjCErRcpShCQ5a5Av uv5R2wG9Tcn5i1vjy6llCvzKfSAwh2WhSmIynghFxubkJWo+YXsCOThM8n+I/UjQjO0b KiMwT3abT5qEOpDoUFDq+ayWmrHkHsfvi9jMni6y7nXwxPs1OmGpVCqwWGEPS48oFtal JbUQsFI5vyVC2KUHPDxmyo5mfr+VlxacKu68+hLcxhkpuTYWcSoi27+b/QYZ7RyiataT M1OJmwQK9RJam9wfqqHVsNpSQQ21GaQVbtxJClHkexxOc36SU/U+lvZkypU5VBlRil9+ LHZZbaUUkuFPUklayLIIuOSCbY9dMcxZb/iOXsoZvpzdQqlMdQiJUFNOvOBtqQhbpKkK Q2kqNjYA3+2Hr1l0kyTq/ldNIpTz8OaIagVfBobTwFqI3vLI5B4+/r3Q7Kuk0Xw+OuPy FCoQ4ceSJTaw2d8gNq6J2sE7gLfqBG32PrlafVOoatZmq0uTR6enLqHXfhmlSHN3LKXG SWF2Umygr+Y2x//Z --============_-1134870022==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regards, Horace Heffner --============_-1134870022==_============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 21:22:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA14403; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:20:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:20:39 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavy Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:20:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001b01c3f757$cec8fe00$a981b341@computer> In-Reply-To: <001b01c3f757$cec8fe00$a981b341@computer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA14375 Resent-Message-ID: <"va0hF.0.wW3.daPD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53178 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:17:24 -0600: Hi Fred, [snip] Can you find an expression for the "evaporation" rate of black holes, as a function of mass? >The "Swartzchild" Radius, R = 2 Gm / c2 sets the limit of mass of a quark at about >1.73e-9 Kg or an energy E of about 1.6e8 joules. > >The radius of a quark = kq^2/E = 2.304e-28/E and when E goes over ~1.6e10 joules it >approaches the Swartzchild radius of the particle/quark and they become >"Black Holes". WIMPS? :-) > >Thus, there could be a variety of Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons with masses ranging >from four times that of U238 to micrograms roaming around in the environment. > >Regards, > >Frederick > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk "Given a choice between a new set of matching tableware and the survival of humanity, I suspect that most people would choose the tableware." George Monbiot (http://www.rense.com/general45/rune.htm) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 01:18:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA25080; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:17:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:17:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:17:01 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Shiny Surfaces? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA24978 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zs6L43.0.q76.a2TD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53179 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I ran out of beer(!), so I just came back from the grocery store. We've all been on the wrong track. On the cover of the Weekly World News - one of the pictures the government doesn't want you to see. Skulls and bones of our dead astronaut ancestors on the plains of Gusev Crater. Holy lichen fruiting bodies, BatBoy! - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 03:40:34 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA15382; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 03:39:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 03:39:53 -0800 Message-ID: <002001c3f79d$d04ded80$01d0b141@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Francis J. Stenger" Subject: Re: Heavy Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:39:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409a43b1b5ead5950708c88ad29fbe0bf9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"YcEL7.0.Im3.88VD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53180 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: >Hi Fred, >[snip] >Can you find an expression for the "evaporation" rate of black holes, as a function of mass? Hi Robin, If three of the heavy primordial Quarks formed a heavy proton... two up and one down (or a heavy antiproton, with two down and one up)) the odd-man-out quark will decay to an electron (or positron) in less than an attosecond. A thermalized heavy proton with a mass-energy of ~ 4 times the mass-energy of U238 would have a 300 K velocity of ~ 150 meters per second, a charge of +1, a spin of 1/2, etc. the same as a regular proton, but would be virtually impossible to spot with a mass spectrometer. The orbiting electron would still be at the ground-state "Bohr radius" of 5.29e-11 meters (no matter how heavy the proton) thus would be a heavy hydrogen atom. Regards, Frederick >>The "Swartzchild" Radius, R = 2 Gm / c2 sets the limit of mass of a quark at about >>1.73e-9 Kg or an energy E of about 1.6e8 joules. >> >>The radius of a quark = kq^2/E = 2.304e-28/E and when E goes over ~1.6e10 joules it >>approaches the Swartzchild radius of the particle/quark and they become >>"Black Holes". WIMPS? :-) >> >>Thus, there could be a variety of Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons with masses ranging >>from four times that of U238 to micrograms roaming around in the environment. >> >>Regards, >> >>Frederick >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 05:12:50 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA23947; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:12:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:12:15 -0800 Message-ID: <003a01c3f7aa$b61c12e0$01d0b141@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Francis J. Stenger" Subject: Re: Heavy Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:10:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405ba9b1e92ad3352a82554b62399d83a7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"O__Ht2.0.7s5.kUWD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53181 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:23:25 Frederick Sparber wrote: >The "Swartzchild" Radius, R = 2 Gm / c2 sets the limit of mass of a quark at about >1.73e-9 Kg or an energy E of about 1.6e8 joules. > >The radius of a quark = kq^2/E = 2.304e-28/E and when E goes over ~1.6e10 joules it >approaches the Swartzchild radius of the particle/quark and they become >"Black Holes". WIMPS? :-) > Solving the equation 2 G*m/c^2 = kq^2/E for E, determines the mass of lightest possible "Black Hole" or Singularity. E = (kq^2*c^4/2 G)^1/2 = 1.18e8 joule or 7.39e26 eV, singularity quark mass, m = 1.3e-9 Kg Thus the lightest Proton "Black Hole" or singularity that can exist is 3* 1.18e-9 ~ = 4.0e-9 Kg (or 4.0 micrograms). That is really heavy hydrogen. :-) http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5577/musings/f_units2.html Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 06:08:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA16166; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:07:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:07:39 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:12:24 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Wispy stuff Resent-Message-ID: <"0qJYg.0.Yy3.gIXD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53182 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Get a look at the wispy cotton-like stuff in the Spirit Sol 46 microscopic images for Sol 46, especially: You can see the soil right through the stuff. This stuff is fully consistent with the hypothsis that fibers are left over when lichen decays, that the piles of fibrous material we've seen on the surface before (and in the subject photos) are decaying fruiting bodies. The fiber under this hypothesis is decaying medulla, which consists of lots of one celled hyphae, very thin long white fibers. The wispy stuff could also be parachute or airbag fiber. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 06:38:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA29630; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:35:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:35:27 -0800 Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: webpage and papers Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:35:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C3F7BE.C5BAB3A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"H1Ygx1.0.wE7.liXD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53183 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3F7BE.C5BAB3A0 Content-Type: text/plain Dear All, Won't subscribe for long to avoid filling inbox. Hope you are all still at it after all these years. http://wwwstudent.brighton.ac.uk/~roc1/ Remi. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3F7BE.C5BAB3A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

Won't subscribe for long = to avoid filling inbox. Hope you are all still at = it after all these years.

http://wwwstudent.brigh= ton.ac.uk/~roc1/

 

Remi.<= font size=3D2 face=3DArial>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3F7BE.C5BAB3A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 07:52:32 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA01716; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:50:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:50:18 -0800 Message-ID: <40362C8E.101@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:49:34 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Article in VoA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mYyqL1.0.OQ.uoYD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53184 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Talks about mud and fibers on Mars: >http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=46515F50-5A6F-4C50-A399FF5034713CB3< From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 07:58:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA02139; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:50:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:50:35 -0800 Message-ID: <20040220155016.34570.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:50:16 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Shiny Surfaces? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"C9FHp1.0.lW.9pYD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53185 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/02/19/shc.mars.search/index.html looks like the shiny rocks have gone mainstream. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 08:46:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA31047; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:45:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:45:07 -0800 Message-ID: <20040220164434.22669.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:44:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: webpage and papers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ox_y71.0.3b7.JcZD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53186 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings, Just finished reading your paper on the TEC Ferrofluid converter. Very interesting. Hope you have a minute to comment. Is it fair to say the premise for finding OU is nothing more controversial than what you concisely stated at the end: "Thus the Brownian motion energy is of the order of a million times greater than the field energy. The micro-kinetic energy transactions of the Brownian motion far exceed the field energy and greater energy can be extracted than just the return of the field energy"...? IOW this is a prototypical Maxwell's demon kind of device with no need to resort to ZPE, etc as a power source... ... but your major problem seems to be in finding a ferrofluid tailored to the needs of a fluid inductor core rather than a seal (what the ferrofluid was designed for). It would seem some kind of glassy metal ferrofluid would be perfect, but we can assume that such a beast doesn't exist yet or you would have tracked it down - and that you are probably trying to coax a manufacturer into supplying a sample ? As always, we are wondering if you have seen any glimpses of OU that were less than what one would write-up for the public, but nevertheless convincing to the experimenter? ... at any rate there is one thing that struck me as an alternative implementation (assuming your ultimate success finding a proper ferrofluid) that is, as far as an irrefutable demonstration of the basic principle if it only shows up as a small COP. And that would be some kind of self-powered device like a wheel, one with permanent magnets spaced around the periphery with your ferrofluid inductor able to benefit from the rapid field collapse between sequential polarity changes. Of course, if your present experiment is amenable to being self-running, that would be the ideal situation, but it looks like there are a number of lossy components that must be overcome. At any rate, this is just a thought from someone who has reasons to believe that a self-powered rotor was a reality 35 years ago, but never got official recognition (a physics prof. who witnessed Howard Johnson's gizmo run for several days but was reluctant to go public with his support). Even if a device is right on the border of OU (COP of 1.1) irrefutable proof of that would make all the difference in opening up official sources of funding. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 08:56:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA02302; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:51:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:51:46 -0800 Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: webpage and papers Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:50:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"pVXHu3.0.wZ.XiZD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53187 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jones Beene, The issue is ferrofluid and we have about for suppliers. Its just a case of making the relaxation rate not to slow and not to fast for the electronics. See the engineering paper. Must go now. Remi. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 09:26:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA26743; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:25:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:25:34 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:30:18 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: webpage and papers Resent-Message-ID: <"iNpa_3.0.iX6.DCaD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53188 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:50 AM 2/20/4, R.O.Cornwall@brighton.ac.uk wrote: >Dear Jones Beene, >The issue is ferrofluid and we have about for suppliers. Its just a case of >making the relaxation rate not to slow and not to fast for the electronics. >See the engineering paper. > >Must go now. >Remi. I haven;t had time to read the website, but thought you might like to know that Bill Beaty posted 9/23/96 that ferrofluid might be available from Ferrofluidics Inc. At that time I checked and found , email: , phone 603-883-9800. They (did?) sell 30 ml kits for prototyping loudspeakers - definitely a magnetic core application. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 09:29:03 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA28369; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:27:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:27:33 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:32:20 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shiny Surfaces? Resent-Message-ID: <"-flYY3.0.Dx6.5EaD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53189 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:50 AM 2/20/4, alexander hollins wrote: >http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/02/19/shc.mars.search/index.html > >looks like the shiny rocks have gone mainstream. And not a mention of a life-form hypothesis. Ah well, I'm still on the lunatic fringe. Nothing new there. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 10:00:59 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA14141; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:59:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:59:40 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:02:08 -0600 Subject: micro pics Message-ID: <20040220.120232.-1990833.3.wardsworld@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=--__JNP_000_1fb6.528d.6664; type="multipart/alternative" From: Ward Johanson Resent-Message-ID: <"ooDOs1.0.vS3.CiaD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53190 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_1fb6.528d.6664 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_3fd5.15c1.4780 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3fd5.15c1.4780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What if they took microscopic pictures at a distance from the landing site? http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=46515F50-5A6F-4C50-A399FF5034 713CB3 "Mr. Squyres was not able to explain the presence of what appear to be puzzling thread-like features seen in Opportunity's microscopic pictures of soil. He suggests that they might be threads from the airbags which cushioned the rover's landing. The airbags, he says, took an awful lot of beating and may have lost fibers in the soil. "I don't know that these things are Martian," he said. " ----__JNP_000_3fd5.15c1.4780 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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What if they took microscopic pictures at a = distance=20 from the landing site?=20

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"Mr. Squyres was not able to explain the presence of what = appear=20 to be puzzling thread-like features seen in Opportunity's=20 microscopic pictures of soil. He suggests that they might be = threads=20 from the airbags which cushioned the rover's landing. The = airbags,=20 he says, took an awful lot of beating and may have lost fibers = in=20 the soil. "I don't know that these things are Martian," he said= .=20 "

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----__JNP_000_3fd5.15c1.4780-- ----__JNP_000_1fb6.528d.6664 Content-Type: image/gif; name="transp.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.voanews.com/graphics/transp.gif R0lGODlhDgAIAIAAANYP1MDAwCH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAAOAAgAAAIJjI+py+0Po1wFADs= ----__JNP_000_1fb6.528d.6664-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 10:26:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA27562; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:24:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:24:56 -0800 Message-ID: <20040220182421.77182.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:24:21 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: PM rotor To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"6GgIp.0.ck6.u3bD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53191 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is an idea for the taking - for anyone who might have been playing around with a permanent magnet-type rotor and might have the wild hope of converting pm --> PM i.e permanent magnetism into perpetual motion - ala the Howard Johnson rotor. The HJ rotor employed weird pivoting banana-shaped magnets as stators placed around the circumference of a P.M. rotor, but they had to be hand-adjusted to very fine tolerances - plus the rotor ran down when the magnetic properties of either of the magnet-sets (rotor or stator) threw the system out of equilibrium. Instead of using all permanent magnets, why not use a stator composed of ferrofluid met-glass soft-magnetic material plus a series of alternating polarity NIBs on a large diameter rotor. The stator wouldn't really be static as the ferrofluid (met-glass nanopowder + teflon based fluid) could be encased in a plastic tube whose axis is perpendicular to the circumference of the rotor and is free to rotate around that axis so you have an extra degree of freedom in a quasi-stator. If it is true, as Cornwall suggests, that Brownian motion can exceed the field energy and that greater energy can be extracted than just the return of the field energy, then perhaps the rotor will self-sustain without the need for precise adjustment? Then there is always the so-called Barkenhausen effect (sp?), which when it is designed into a circular motion, rather than the normal stop-and-go oscillation, might retain and benefit from its own angular momentum, rather than the angular momentum being parasitic... Sound like another science-fair project... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 12:27:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA30140; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:22:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:22:06 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [206.15.3.52] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: PM rotor Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:21:29 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2004 20:21:30.0347 (UTC) FILETIME=[200CF3B0:01C3F7EF] Resent-Message-ID: <"VVWH_3.0.uM7.kncD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53192 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, I forwarded this on to our team of engineers working with magnetics. Interesting. Incidently, my late friend Sam, whose Company was U.S. Magnet & Alloy, made the banana magnets for Howard. Neither of them ever got the rotary version to work. Sam was sure, after decades of making magnets, that such motors are possible. After his retirement, he was working on what he felt was a promising design, but it died with him. I'll post a message if anyone tries this in our group and finds it useful. Mark Magnetic Power Inc. >From: Jones Beene >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: PM rotor >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:24:21 -0800 (PST) > >Here is an idea for the taking - for anyone who might >have been playing around with a permanent magnet-type >rotor and might have the wild hope of converting pm >--> PM i.e permanent magnetism into perpetual motion >- ala the Howard Johnson rotor. > >The HJ rotor employed weird pivoting banana-shaped >magnets as stators placed around the circumference of >a P.M. rotor, but they had to be hand-adjusted to very >fine tolerances - plus the rotor ran down when the >magnetic properties of either of the magnet-sets >(rotor or stator) threw the system out of equilibrium. > >Instead of using all permanent magnets, why not use a >stator composed of ferrofluid met-glass soft-magnetic >material plus a series of alternating polarity NIBs on >a large diameter rotor. The stator wouldn't really be >static as the ferrofluid (met-glass nanopowder + >teflon based fluid) could be encased in a plastic tube >whose axis is perpendicular to the circumference of >the rotor and is free to rotate around that axis so >you have an extra degree of freedom in a quasi-stator. > >If it is true, as Cornwall suggests, that Brownian >motion can exceed the field energy and that >greater energy can be extracted than just the return >of the field energy, then perhaps the rotor will >self-sustain without the need for precise adjustment? >Then there is always the so-called Barkenhausen effect >(sp?), which when it is designed into a circular >motion, rather than the normal stop-and-go >oscillation, might retain and benefit from its own >angular momentum, rather than the angular momentum >being parasitic... > >Sound like another science-fair project... > >Jones > _________________________________________________________________ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 16:10:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18664; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:05:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:05:48 -0800 Message-ID: <410-2200426210831500@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 20, 2004 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:08:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d87898e479cf5cf5fac7820499ad0a43423d063210bc784f5e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"8j9QM3.0.aZ4.S3gD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53193 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 2/20/2004 1:52:09 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 20, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 20 Feb 04 Washington, DC 1. POLITICAL SCIENCE: SCIENTIFIC INTEGRITY IN THE ADMINISTRATION. A statement issued Wednesday by a group of prominent scientists charged the administration with manipulating the science advisory process to support its political objectives: advisory panels are stacked; those that can't be stacked are disbanded; reports that don't reach the right conclusion are suppressed; and questionable policies are shielded from scientific review. Specific examples are in a report from the Union of Concerned Scientists, released at the same time, "Scientific Integrity in Policymaking: An Investigation into the Bush Administration's Misuse of Science." The statement was signed by more than 60 prominent scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates. The administration response was to trivialize the issue. "I think there are incidents where people have got their feathers ruffled," sniffed John Marburger, science advisor to the President, quoted by the New York Times. 2. RUFFLED FEATHERS: YES, VIRGINIA, THERE IS A SCIENCE ADVISOR. At least there is a director of OSTP. Could "ruffled feathers" be a coded message? I decided to ask my colleague Prof. Basilisk, the famous ornithologist. Anything involving birds or feathers Basilisk would know about. I found him feeding pigeons in the park. "If a bird's feathers are ruffled, professor, what does it mean?" He thought for a moment: "It means the bird is sitting with its tail to the wind." That's it! The wind is at our back. 3. FEAR FACTOR: DO ELECTRICAL APPLIANCES DAMAGE BRAIN-CELL DNA? Well, they did back in 1989 when Paul Brodeur wrote his first New Yorker article claiming 60 Hertz magnetic fields induce cancer. They stopped doing it in 1997 when the National Cancer Institute released the results of a massive epidemiological study that found no hint of a link between EMF and childhood leukemia. http://www.aps.org/WN/WN97/WN070497.cfm But if you wait long enough, all issues recycle. Now, researchers at the U. of Washington claim to have found breakage of DNA strands in the brains of rats exposed to 60-Hz magnetic fields like those produced by hair dryers and other appliances. It's a wonder any of us have made it this far. But don't toss out the toaster yet. These claims keep coming up, but rarely survive. Let's at least wait until someone repeats the work. 4. SUMMER INTERN: THE APS WASHINGTON OFFICE HAS AN OPENING. Physics graduate with great writing skills and a genius IQ to spend eight to ten weeks in Washington battling the forces of darkness. The starting date is negotiable, but we're inflexible on the genius thing. Write victoria@aps.org for details. We'll need a resume, writing sample and references by March 31. > THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. > Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the > University of Maryland, but they should be. > --- > Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN > You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 16:39:50 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA05116; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:37:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:37:22 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:53:12 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: webpage and papers Resent-Message-ID: <"abjU13.0.pF1.1XgD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53195 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gad! Ferrofluidics Inc. has grown a lot the past 9 years. Has offices worldwide, including the UK. Their science kits, aimed at shools, are sold by lots of educational type vendors, like Edmonds Scientific. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 16:39:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA05093; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:37:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:37:21 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:04:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Article in VoA Resent-Message-ID: <"dPm_B2.0.SF1.0XgD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53194 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:49 AM 2/20/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Talks about mud and fibers on Mars: > > >>http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=46515F50-5A6F-4C50-A399FF50347 >13CB3< Ah yes, the airbag explanation for the fibers. Spirit is moving in a direction that is upwind from its landing zone. It is close to the heat shield, which would have fallen faster than any fiber or even the parachute and airbag. Pretty soon, if not even now, it would have been impossible for the fibers to have landed at the location Spirit is photographing unless there was a significant wind change. NASA itself has said the consistent drift formation angles planet wide indicate a very high consistency in wind direction everywhere. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 16:48:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA11605; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:46:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:46:52 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20040220164814.00b173f0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: stevek@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:50:23 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Subject: other newsgroups Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"wGM4R1.0.Hr2.xfgD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53196 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear V: Can anybody tell me, besides this forum, what other major electronic lists or groups maintain ongoing discussions or interest in cold fusion? Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 20:14:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA07174; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:13:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:13:01 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <192.260ec754.2d6834a4@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:12:20 EST Subject: rover finds salt water To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_192.260ec754.2d6834a4_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: <"-vIlo3.0.wl1.ChjD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53197 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_192.260ec754.2d6834a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_192.260ec754.2d6834a4_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xe04.mx.aol.com (rly-xe04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.196]) by air-xe05.mail.aol.com (v98.6) with ESMTP id MAILINXE53-4274036a65435e; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:29:23 -0500 Received: from ham-d02.blue.aol.com (ham-d02.blue.aol.com [205.188.179.8]) by rly-xe04.mx.aol.com (v98.5) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXE43-4274036a65435e; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:29:08 -0500 From: To: fznidarsic@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:29:08 EST Message-ID: <20040220192908.10875.23725979@ham-d02.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Subject: AOL Research & Learn Mars Rover Alert X-AOL-IP: 205.188.179.8 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version)
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--part1_192.260ec754.2d6834a4_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 20:22:11 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA12899; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:21:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:21:39 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:21:03 EST Subject: Rover finds salt water To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_bf.3c0e8112.2d6836af_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: <"5n2O83.0.Q93.JpjD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53198 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_bf.3c0e8112.2d6836af_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/rover_update_040219.html --part1_bf.3c0e8112.2d6836af_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.space.com/missionlaunche= s/rover_update_040219.html --part1_bf.3c0e8112.2d6836af_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 03:46:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA32113; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:45:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:45:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:44:52 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Mars color image compositing Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1134758596==_ma============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"17Xrz3.0.hr7.3JqD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53199 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1134758596==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I figured out the filter system they're using on the PanCam. The left camera does most of the visible light, and filters 2, 5, and 7 seem to be R,G, and B respectively. Study the PanCam thumbnail pages and you might notice images of the same spot in sets of threes with 2-5-7 filters. Sometimes it's a set of six : 2-3-4-5-6-7. So I pasted these filter images with 2,5, & 7 into the RGB color channels in Photoshop, and most of the image looks like the color composites posted on the official sites. The soils and lighter colored rocks come out looking fine. Most of the lighter and darker 'blueberries' look ok, with the darker ones coming in a dark metallic blue-black or blue-gray. But there's a problem with some rocks - they're bright turquoise, like Kingman Mine blue-green gem material. The thing is, these turquoise rocks look like black lumps of coal in the red filter (2), and very light to white on the green and blue images. There's no red in them at all in other words, just bright blue and green. It's only on some of the rocks. I thought maybe it was a specular effect, like the red gets knocked out of shiny spots. But the rocks are in positions and have sides that don't look like they're at a reflective angle. It's like it's the whole rock across contours and pits and everything - like it really is a piece of turquoise. I noticed that this color doesn't show up in the official releases, and I selectively shifted it out of a color composite I made here from some sol 20 Opportunity images: http://www.highsurf.com/misc/marsfossil.html (scroll down and click the thumbnail of the color image). What do you think, is the surface of Mars really littered with gem turquoise? Chemistry of turquoise: CuAl6(PO4)4(OH)8*5(H2O), Hydrated Copper Aluminum Phosphate. - Rick --============_-1134758596==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mars color image compositing
I figured out the filter system they're using on the PanCam. The left camera does most of the visible light, and filters 2, 5, and 7 seem to be R,G, and B respectively. Study the PanCam thumbnail pages and you might notice images of the same spot in sets of threes with 2-5-7 filters. Sometimes it's a set of six : 2-3-4-5-6-7. So I pasted these filter images with 2,5, & 7 into the RGB color channels in Photoshop, and most of the image looks like the color composites posted on the official sites.

The soils and lighter colored rocks come out looking fine. Most of the lighter and darker 'blueberries' look ok, with the darker ones coming in  a dark metallic blue-black or blue-gray. But there's a problem with some rocks - they're bright turquoise, like Kingman Mine blue-green gem material. The thing is, these turquoise rocks look like black lumps of coal in the red filter (2), and very light to white on the green and blue images. There's no red in them at all in other words, just bright blue and green. It's only on some of the rocks. I thought maybe it was a specular effect, like the red gets knocked out of shiny spots. But the rocks are in positions and have sides that don't look like they're at a reflective angle. It's like it's the whole rock across contours and pits and everything - like it really is a piece of turquoise. I noticed that this color doesn't show up in the official releases, and I selectively shifted it out of a color composite I made here from some sol 20 Opportunity images:

http://www.highsurf.com/misc/marsfossil.html   (scroll down and click the thumbnail of the color image).

What do you think, is the surface of Mars really littered with gem turquoise? Chemistry of turquoise: CuAl6(PO4)4(OH)8*5(H2O), Hydrated Copper Aluminum Phosphate.

- Rick

--============_-1134758596==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 07:11:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA30445; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:10:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:10:30 -0800 Message-ID: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:11:24 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"12pw33.0.fR7.cJtD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53200 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > What do you think, is the surface of Mars really littered with gem > turquoise? This Spirit image would make you think so: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040219a/13-DD-4-pancam-A046R1.jpg From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 07:15:06 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA32547; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:14:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:14:28 -0800 Message-ID: <004101c3f88d$63c8b140$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:13:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"QNR_O1.0.Vy7.JNtD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53201 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > What do you think, is the surface of Mars really littered with gem > > turquoise? > > This Spirit image would make you think so: > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040219a/13-DD-4-pancam-A046R1.jpg Could it be blue-green algae or lichen? The oxygen generated would be absorbed by the iron-rich soil, making the planet red? Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 09:52:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA14309; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:49:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:49:57 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Mars color image compositing Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:14:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"9ZdUm.0.TV3.4fvD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53202 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Rick For what it's worth, the filename tell you a lot about the image, including such details as the filter type. Look to the 25th character, coded as follows. Camera Filter (PANCAM only, 0 otherwise) LEFT CAMERA RIGHT CAMERA 1 = EMPTY (clear) 1 = 436nm (37nm Short-pass) 2 = 753nm (20nm bandpass) 2 = 754nm (20nm bandpass) 3 = 673nm (16nm bandpass) 3 = 803nm (20nm bandpass) 4 = 601nm (17nm bandpass) 4 = 864nm (17nm bandpass) 5 = 535nm (20nm bandpass) 5 = 904nm (26nm bandpass) 6 = 482nm (25nm bandpass) 6 = 934nm (25nm bandpass) 7 = 432nm (32nm Short-pass) 7 = 1009nm (38nm Long-pass) 8 = 440nm (20) Solar ND 5.0 8 = 880nm (20) Solar ND 5.0 More at this URL http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/edr_filename_key.html K. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 6:45 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Mars color image compositing I figured out the filter system they're using on the PanCam. The left camera does most of the visible light, and filters 2, 5, and 7 seem to be R,G, and B respectively. Study the PanCam thumbnail pages and you might notice images of the same spot in sets of threes with 2-5-7 filters. Sometimes it's a set of six : 2-3-4-5-6-7. So I pasted these filter images with 2,5, & 7 into the RGB color channels in Photoshop, and most of the image looks like the color composites posted on the official sites. The soils and lighter colored rocks come out looking fine. Most of the lighter and darker 'blueberries' look ok, with the darker ones coming in a dark metallic blue-black or blue-gray. But there's a problem with some rocks - they're bright turquoise, like Kingman Mine blue-green gem material. The thing is, these turquoise rocks look like black lumps of coal in the red filter (2), and very light to white on the green and blue images. There's no red in them at all in other words, just bright blue and green. It's only on some of the rocks. I thought maybe it was a specular effect, like the red gets knocked out of shiny spots. But the rocks are in positions and have sides that don't look like they're at a reflective angle. It's like it's the whole rock across contours and pits and everything - like it really is a piece of turquoise. I noticed that this color doesn't show up in the official releases, and I selectively shifted it out of a color composite I made here from some sol 20 Opportunity images: http://www.highsurf.com/misc/marsfossil.html (scroll down and click the thumbnail of the color image). What do you think, is the surface of Mars really littered with gem turquoise? Chemistry of turquoise: CuAl6(PO4)4(OH)8*5(H2O), Hydrated Copper Aluminum Phosphate. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 11:24:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA15781; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:22:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:22:31 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:27:13 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Moving stuff on Mars Resent-Message-ID: <"cBweK3.0.Us3.s_wD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53203 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: NASA has recently posted some old Sol 23 microscopic images of an area that was also photographed on Sol 22. In comparing these photos there appear to be various places where things are moving or changing. For example compare: at pixel coordinates: 531,837 (lichen over large concave rock); 385,536 (dots on decaying fuzzball); and 551,612 (dots on and near cocave depression on top of decaying fuzzball) to: corresponding pixels: 602,847; 371,534; and 549,604. It the motion is real then either a strong wind has kicked up or there are some things on the surface that are not just rocks. One possibile explanation might be filter differences causing things to appear and disappear. The images need some real scrutiny. Wonder why NASA decided to photograph the same area on two differing days? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 11:54:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA07788; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:50:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:50:22 -0800 Message-ID: <00ee01c3f8b3$e9beb5d0$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: Subject: Re: Moving stuff on Mars Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:49:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"ukM8G1.0.av1.-PxD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53204 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/023/1M130225637EFF0382P2959M2M1.JPG I presume this image is a close-up of the rover's track in the soil. If there is no water in the soil, then how did that crack form? Doesn't this crack imply some sort of sticky agent, like water? Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 12:46:09 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA13360; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:43:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:43:18 -0800 Message-ID: <4037C31E.1000604@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:44:14 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moving stuff on Mars References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PzhM91.0.iG3.bByD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53205 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >Wonder why NASA decided to photograph the same area on two differing days? 8^) > If you pull up both images and use the alt+tab to jump between them, you'll notice a lot of differences. The sol23 images show the marbles have been pressed into the soil. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 12:50:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17325; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:48:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:48:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:48:02 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA17283 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZELXN3.0.eE4.DGyD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53206 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - Wow, good find. I didn't know there was one out there like that. That's what my images look like, and you can see pretty clearly on those rocks that it's not reflection, they're coming out that color. If it's not some crazy artifact due to the filter selection, that sure is the color of turquoise, and the soft features of the rocks themselves look like typical turquoise features. I'd like to have a dumptruck load of topsoil from there. A martian puka shell necklace made of size-graduated blueberries with a turquoise pendant in the middle would get $35 bucks all day long on Waikiki beach. Saw another odd thing is when I composited the trench Spirit made. Typical reddish brown soils all around on the surface, but the trench itself is dead gray. Looks like I selected it out of the image and hit desaturate all the way. Again I thought I did something wrong when I first saw it, had a channel turned off or something. But it seems to actually be that way, like beach sand under a red/brown surface dusting. Keith, thanks for the link. That's what I used to get the filters mapped to the RGB channels. I should have posted it with my previous message. - Rick >Rick Monteverde wrote: > >>What do you think, is the surface of Mars really littered with gem turquoise? > > >This Spirit image would make you think so: > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040219a/13-DD-4-pancam-A046R1.jpg From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 13:05:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA29817; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:05:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:05:09 -0800 Message-ID: <4037C83D.5000303@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:06:05 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dFYHx.0.qH7.5WyD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53207 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Terry - > >Wow, good find. I didn't know there was one out there like that. > All the color/3D images are on the press release pages. > A martian puka shell necklace made of size-graduated blueberries with a turquoise pendant in the middle would get $35 bucks all day long on Waikiki beach. > Yeah, but how much for the shipping and handling charge? >Saw another odd thing is when I composited the trench Spirit made. Typical reddish brown soils all around on the surface, but the trench itself is dead gray. > Sure would like to see some alpha x-ray spectrum plots from those trenches! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 13:47:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA27190; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:46:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:46:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4037C83D.5000303@rtpatlanta.com> References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> <4037C83D.5000303@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:45:42 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA27153 Resent-Message-ID: <"bB8kW.0.je6.Q6zD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53208 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Turquoise = water formed rock. More excitement if it's really what it seems. Unless it's some sort of color filter goof after all, it's not ambiguous. It's not just the color, those rocks are shaped and textured different than the angular lava basalts. They're knobby and perhaps even veined - looks exactly like turquoise or chrysocolla. Of course we won't be getting any spectroscopy data anytime soon... :( - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 13:49:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA30369; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:48:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:48:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4037C83D.5000303@rtpatlanta.com> References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> <4037C83D.5000303@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:48:39 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"_JnkY2.0.TQ7.09zD01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53209 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 4:06 PM -0500 2/21/04, Terry Blanton wrote: >Yeah, but how much for the shipping and handling charge? You still got some contacts at NASA? They can get 'em for us wholesale? - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 18:11:52 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA01557; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:07:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:07:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <40380EF7.9030308@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:07:51 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> <4037C83D.5000303@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QsrVp1.0.HO.7x0E01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53210 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Turquoise = water formed rock. > Chill, Rick. It's probably only emeralds. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 18:23:54 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA18946; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:21:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:21:44 -0800 Message-ID: <40381269.9030102@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:22:33 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> <4037C83D.5000303@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d3dcK3.0.-d4.u81E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53211 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >You still got some contacts at NASA? They can get 'em for us wholesale? > Yah, but even with the employee discount, it's still cheaper to go to Sante Fe. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 20:13:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA22713; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:11:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:11:32 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavy Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:08:51 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <177g30dqnikm9n51dba7bqsgh133i01nkp@4ax.com> References: <002001c3f79d$d04ded80$01d0b141@computer> In-Reply-To: <002001c3f79d$d04ded80$01d0b141@computer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA22621 Resent-Message-ID: <"o0MK72.0.eY5.ol2E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53212 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:39:20 -0600: Hi, I notice that you didn't answer the question, which I deliberately put, to point out that your "black hole" may have a very short lifetime. >Robin wrote: > >>Hi Fred, >>[snip] > >>Can you find an expression for the "evaporation" rate of black holes, as a function >of mass? > > Hi Robin, > >If three of the heavy primordial Quarks formed a heavy proton... two up and one down >(or a heavy antiproton, with two down and one up)) the odd-man-out quark will decay to >an electron (or positron) in less than an attosecond. > >A thermalized heavy proton with a mass-energy of ~ 4 times the mass-energy of U238 >would have a 300 K velocity of ~ 150 meters per second, a charge of +1, a spin of 1/2, >etc. the same as a regular proton, but would be virtually impossible to spot with a >mass spectrometer. > >The orbiting electron would still be at the ground-state "Bohr radius" of 5.29e-11 >meters (no matter how heavy the proton) thus would be a heavy hydrogen atom. > >Regards, > >Frederick > >>>The "Swartzchild" Radius, R = 2 Gm / c2 sets the limit of mass of a quark at about >>>1.73e-9 Kg or an energy E of about 1.6e8 joules. >>> >>>The radius of a quark = kq^2/E = 2.304e-28/E and when E goes over ~1.6e10 joules it >>>approaches the Swartzchild radius of the particle/quark and they become >>>"Black Holes". WIMPS? :-) >>> >>>Thus, there could be a variety of Protons, Neutrons and Deuterons with masses >ranging >>>from four times that of U238 to micrograms roaming around in the environment. >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Frederick >>> > > > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk George Orwell was 20 years off. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 20:16:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA22827; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:11:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:11:38 -0800 Message-ID: <40381814.8010905@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:46:44 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> <4037C83D.5000303@rtpatlanta.com> <40381269.9030102@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <40381269.9030102@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3a3Av1.0.Va5.wl2E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53213 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Yah, but even with the employee discount, it's still cheaper to go to > Sante Fe. Well, further research says that the Turquoise Trail and Santa Fe are no longer the great producers of turquoise. However, Arizona doesn't have Roswell where you can pick up turquoise AND see Martians. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 20:20:14 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA31025; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:19:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:19:04 -0800 Message-ID: <023801c3f8fa$fe2d4d00$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:18:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"gMmWI1.0.aa7.ts2E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53214 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > What do you think, is the surface of Mars really littered with gem > > turquoise? > > This Spirit image would make you think so: > > http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040219a/13-DD-4-pancam-A046R1.jpg The caption next to this photo indicates that the colors are artificial. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040219a.html Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 20:55:52 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA06692; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:51:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:51:58 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:56:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Moving stuff on Mars Resent-Message-ID: <"s8F3D.0.Se1.jL3E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53215 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My outgoing mail seems to be dropping into a bit bucket. I'm sending this for the third time today. At 3:44 PM 2/21/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Wonder why NASA decided to photograph the same area on two differing >>days? 8^) >> > >If you pull up both images and use the alt+tab to jump between them, >you'll notice a lot of differences. The sol23 images show the marbles >have been pressed into the soil. Yes, you are so right on. I wish I had notcied that! It must be another NASA instrument compression. I was focused on the lower right side of the photo so didn't notice the compression. What an excellent technique that alt+tab is. I was previously unaware of the alt+tab option in Mozilla. I've spent much time almost daily, since the first microscopic images came out, comparing images side by side looking for movement, but haven't seen any. Apparently "explorecraft" HAS seen movement recently, but he hasn't been posting lately for some reason. One thing if interest is that when toggelling the photos it is clear that the stalk-like things really are rigid and not merely a string of losely coupled balls, like a string of pearls. In some cases the stalk is turned from prone to upright so the end can be seen straigt end-on, and it is white when viewed end-on. At 1:49 PM 2/21/4, SnowDog wrote: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/023/1M130225637EFF0382P2959M >2M1.JPG > >I presume this image is a close-up of the rover's track in the soil. If >there is no water in the soil, then how did that crack form? Doesn't this >crack imply some sort of sticky agent, like water? Yes, some kind of binding agent. I have assumed it is partly ice but partly gel too. This is the kind of surface one would get if it were covered with a frozen crustose lichen. You have to keep in mind that the temperatures there are likely way below freezing, especially in any locally shaded areas. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 22:05:21 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA17444; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:03:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:03:56 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:54:36 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Moving stuff on Mars Resent-Message-ID: <"qVqUB3.0.WG4.CP4E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53217 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:44 PM 2/21/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Wonder why NASA decided to photograph the same area on two differing >>days? 8^) >> > >If you pull up both images and use the alt+tab to jump between them, >you'll notice a lot of differences. The sol23 images show the marbles >have been pressed into the soil. Yes, you are so right on. I wish I had notcied that! It must be another NASA instrument compression. I was focused on the lower right side of the photo so didn't notice the compression. What an excellent technique that alt+tab is. I was previously unaware of the alt+tab option in Mozilla. I've spent much time almost daily, since the first microscopic images came out, comparing images side by side looking for movement, but haven't seen any. Apparently "explorecraft" HAS seen movement recently, but he hasn't been posting lately for some reason. One thing if interest is that when toggelling the photos it is clear that the stalk-like things really are rigid and not merely a string of losely coupled balls, like a string of pearls. In some cases the stalk is turned from prone to upright so the end can be seen straigt end-on, and it is white when viewed end-on. At 1:49 PM 2/21/4, SnowDog wrote: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/023/1M130225637EFF0382P2959M >2M1.JPG > >I presume this image is a close-up of the rover's track in the soil. If >there is no water in the soil, then how did that crack form? Doesn't this >crack imply some sort of sticky agent, like water? Yes, some kind of binding agent. I have assumed it is partly ice but partly gel too. This is the kind of surface one would get if it were covered with a frozen crustose lichen. You have to keep in mind that the temperatures there are likely way below freezing, especially in any locally shaded areas. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 22:07:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA17431; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:03:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:03:55 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:49:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Moving stuff on Mars Resent-Message-ID: <"G0srT2.0.GG4.BP4E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53216 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now and then I send stuf and it doeswn't arrive for hours. I sent this a while ago but it didn't show up so I'm sending it again. At 3:44 PM 2/21/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Wonder why NASA decided to photograph the same area on two differing >>days? 8^) >> > >If you pull up both images and use the alt+tab to jump between them, >you'll notice a lot of differences. The sol23 images show the marbles >have been pressed into the soil. Yes, you are so right on. I wish I had notcied that! It must be another NASA instrument compression. I was focused on the lower right side of the photo so didn't notice the compression. What an excellent technique that alt+tab is. I was previously unaware of the alt+tab option in Mozilla. I've spent much time almost daily, since the first microscopic images came out, comparing images side by side looking for movement, but haven't seen any. Apparently "explorecraft" HAS seen movement recently, but he hasn't been posting lately for some reason. One thing if interest is that when toggelling the photos it is clear that the stalk-like things really are rigid and not merely a string of losely coupled balls, like a string of pearls. In some cases the stalk is turned from prone to upright so the end can be seen straigt end-on, and it is white when viewed end-on. At 1:49 PM 2/21/4, SnowDog wrote: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/023/1M130225637EFF0382P2959M >2M1.JPG > >I presume this image is a close-up of the rover's track in the soil. If >there is no water in the soil, then how did that crack form? Doesn't this >crack imply some sort of sticky agent, like water? Yes, some kind of binding agent. I have assumed it is partly ice but partly gel too. This is the kind of surface one would get if it were covered with a frozen crustose lichen. You have to keep in mind that the temperatures there are likely way below freezing, especially in any locally shaded areas. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 00:47:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA16653; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:46:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:46:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <023801c3f8fa$fe2d4d00$6401a8c0@Craig> References: <4037751C.1040704@rtpatlanta.com> <023801c3f8fa$fe2d4d00$6401a8c0@Craig> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:46:24 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA16546 Resent-Message-ID: <"B4jh_1.0.444.zn6E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53218 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig - They're artificial, but not necessarily too far off - the mix I used and got the same turquoise was 753nm (red), 535nm (green) and 432nm (blue). The red might be a little far red, I'm not sure - but I think it might be pretty close to good old RGB. I want to find out how to dial it in just right for a natural full color image though. Maybe that color reference wheel on the deck with the sundial would do the trick. Anybody have any ideas? - Rick >The caption next to this photo indicates that the colors are artificial. > >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040219a.html > >Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 04:11:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA18182; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:11:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:11:02 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c3f93c$ef082bf0$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: Subject: Re: Mars color image compositing Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 06:10:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"jnYLl3.0.1S4.Ln9E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53219 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mars color image compositingRick was say that Left filters 2, 5, and 7 were probably the RGB filters for the pancam. Here's the color chart, which seems to indicate that L2, L5, and L6 are Red, Green, and Blue, respectively. Doesn't the exact frequency match help when producing the composite images? Can't we know for sure which colors to use when putting the images together? Camera Filter (PANCAM only, 0 otherwise) LEFT CAMERA RIGHT CAMERA 1 = EMPTY (clear) 1 = 436nm (37nm Short-pass) 2 = 753nm (20nm bandpass) 2 = 754nm (20nm bandpass) 3 = 673nm (16nm bandpass) 3 = 803nm (20nm bandpass) 4 = 601nm (17nm bandpass) 4 = 864nm (17nm bandpass) 5 = 535nm (20nm bandpass) 5 = 904nm (26nm bandpass) 6 = 482nm (25nm bandpass) 6 = 934nm (25nm bandpass) 7 = 432nm (32nm Short-pass) 7 = 1009nm (38nm Long-pass) 8 = 440nm (20) Solar ND 5.0 8 = 880nm (20) Solar ND 5.0 http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/edr_filename_key.html I also found this: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pub_info_release/2004-02-02/Calibration_target_spectra-B009R1.jpg Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 04:25:00 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA29331; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:21:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:21:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 02:21:10 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Mars turquoise color calibration update Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id EAA29268 Resent-Message-ID: <"N327P.0.FA7.0x9E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53220 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I used the calibration wheel on the rover to get an image composited into what I think is pretty accurate visual color, and the bottom line is that the Opportunity site berries and other rocks really seem to be a bright shade of turquoise and blue-greens. I'll re-try some Spirit images next. See the updated marsberry image with color disk included for comparison at: http://www.highsurf.com/misc/blueberries.html Filter #2's 753 nanometer red is in fact a bit long and was pulling off the other colors. Using filter #3's 673nm red gives results much closer to the color disk values when composited. Unfortunately they use the 2-5-7 filter triplet a lot, so not as many images can be put together with the 673 red, and I couldn't figure out how to hammer it into shape in Photoshop. The blue tab stays bright magenta and the green tab is missing altogether (washed out brown like the disk background) in 2-5-7 shots. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 07:47:50 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA25942; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:46:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:46:54 -0800 Message-ID: <4038CF27.9040608@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:47:51 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Azurite Balls Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ckaPt2.0.IL6.jxCE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53221 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These dudes even look fuzzy: http://www.greatsouth.net/p-M453.html Composition: Cu3(CO3)2(OH)2 Found in hematite matrix, too. http://personal.riverusers.com/~rockdoc/pagea.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 11:16:34 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA32138; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:15:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:15:23 -0800 Message-ID: <007d01c3f977$fbde9a40$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: top-down or bottom-up Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:13:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA32039 Resent-Message-ID: <"SKdh83.0.2s7.B_FE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53222 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following are some loosely connected thoughts aimed primarily at any free-energy experimenter who delights in searching for small-scale effects in relatively inexpensive experiments - which might, of course, eventually portend a working OU device. If you want the 'executive summary' first, it is simply this: get hold of a number of gallium nitride UV photodiodes. Now for the reasons why this might help in the quest for OU. Most experiments of this kind are aimed at exploiting some presumed phenomenon in which there seems to be a small, very specific window for overunity, i.e. resonant arc or glow discharges, water-arc discharges or the slight fudge factor that exists in Faradaic electrolysis. The "Li effect" is also a prime area for finding this window, especially if spectroscopy can determine that the Li effect is based on a 3.4 eV photon emission, which is appearing to be the case. Hardly anyone has gone to the trouble of working from the top-down in this pursuit, or if they have, they don't seem to have shared their thinking on it over the internet. By top-down, I mean working backwards from large scale cosmological factors back to the small scale of an experiment in order to better predict what form the overunity energy 'should' arrive-in... if it is indeed found. There are some implications coming from the 'new cosmology' that might be helpful in trying to harness a bit of the so-called "dark energy" of cosmological expansion: that is, for finding usable "free energy" on a local scale, especially if dark-energy and "Dirac's sea" are somehow found to be different aspects of the same phenomenon. Even though the bulk of the energy content of Dirac's sea is "negative" and therefore ostensibly counterproductive for tapping directly, there may exist an *interfacial* area between negative energy "holes" and positive energy, such that a window appears along this interface that can be exploited, as with the Casimir effect. The implication being that among the many approaches to free energy is one that seems counter intuitive: to try to radiate positive energy efficiently at the exact resonance of the decay energy of a particle which you wish to extract - to 'prime the pump' so to speak. IMHO this approach should be focused on the 3.4 eV radiation that accompanies either positronium decay (half of the 6.8 eV), or more specifically the decay energy of the electron anti-neutrino rest mass. The two are probably different views of the same animal. Dark matter is nonluminous stuff that cannot be detected well with normal instrumentation, but whose existence is inferred ... and now widely accepted from mathematical models of the universe. Anything called 'virtual' is a candidate for dark matter. From recent data, cosmologists can determine that a fair percent of the mass of the universe could come from just the electron anti-neutrino alone (more than from hydrogen, even though we grew up hearing that most of the universe was hydrogen), but it looks like the larger bulk of the "dark matter/ dark energy" is more in keeping with either negative electrons (which are out of reach in our 3-space) or positrons, which are potentially 'extractable' from the spatial interface, i.e. the vacuum. Neutrinos are created (freed) along with electrons when the nucleus of an atom disintegrates through beta decay or when a neutron decays. Scientists think they know roughly how many neutrinos might exist as leftovers from either the Big Bang creation of the universe or from the steady-state equations, if you follow Arp; however, their exact mass is still a bit of a mystery. The mass range was narrowed in 1991, when scientists at Los Alamos announced a new top limit (9.3 electron volts) for the mass of the electron anti-neutrino (the type of neutrino found in neutrons), discovered through measurements of the beta decay of molecular tritium. Reference: "Limit on Electron Antineutrino Mass from Observation of the b decay of Molecular Tritium," R. G. H. Robertson et al., Phys. Rev. Lett., 67: 957 (1991). There were good reasons from later experiments to peg this mass/energy at 6.8 eV and more good reasons to say that it involves pairs of mass/energy quanta of 3.4 eV each, probably light leptons that "serve the function of the hypothetical 'gluon.' I choose to call the gluon 'hypothetical' because its only evidence is found in the 'debris' from high energy collisions, and that debris could well be derived from some other 'real' particle (i.e. a 3.4 eV rest mass neutrino.) This amount of energy, working backwards is exactly where I believe that the largest available reservoir of interfacial "free-energy" will be found (note that a key energy level in R. Mills' hydrino theory is 27.2 eV which is a multiple of this). Now, back to the issue of the aforementioned gallium nitride UV photo emitter. The band gap and the photon emission is exactly at 3.4 eV. IF (big if) there is an interfacial area between our spatial reality and the Dirac sea where positronium exists in high density (which is exactly what scientists in the past have been calling virtual Positronium) then perhaps we can stimulate some portion of it to cross that interface, and to emerge into our reality. We could do that by 'priming the pump" which is to say, by stimulating space with the resonant decay energy of Ps decay. Jones Oh, almost forgot to describe the experiment itself. Actually there are many that can be envisioned, but if you take a bell jar or vacuum chamber - place a number of gallium nitride photodiodes in it as well as a gamma photocell to detect the annihilation energy of any positrons (511 KeV) , who knows? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 11:17:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA00972; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:17:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:17:18 -0800 Message-ID: <20040222191716.4226.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:17:16 -0800 (PST) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: Story of an amateur scientist (long) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"5t_R4.0.8F.-0GE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53223 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello all, I manually forwarded this to the freenrg-L list (or to vortex-L if you're reading this on freenrg-l). As I understand it this is ok, if not let me know and I will refrain from this in the future. This isn't going to seem on topic at first, but I think it does have a point on topic if you read it all. I guess this email was a long time in coming; its been building in my mind over a long period of years, of which time I have been an on and off subscriber to these discussion lists. In the past I have participated to a limited degree in on-list experimental work, but nothing that is significant in my mind. One thing some might remember is my tests of the stacked toroidal coils pulsed with high current. I think it was ATGroup or something like that who started that? At least the ATG part rings a bell. Over the last few years my home life has deteriorated significantly. Things have gotten much more stressfull than ever before, save for my years in public school. Unfortunately, I tend to be affected by outside influences. The very bad experiences I had in school, probably due to my being in 4th grade one year and skipping grades to 9th grade the next year, caused me to become extremely introverted and to have a severe lack of trust. The fact that I loved science didn't endear me to my peers much either. After I finally graduated, I entered college at the age of 14. Those four years were perhaps the best of my life. I think some of this is due to the fact that the college I went to was a more relaxed Community College. There weren't big names there to say 'not interested' when I would propose some project or ask strange questions. I had the electrical and telecommunications department offering me facilities, work space, etc., for my experiments. It was a very supportive environment, and started me on a road of more serious experimental work. My primary interest would have to be interstellar space travel. I'd love to see that accomplished. But to do that, whenever in the future it happens, there is always a very big obstacle in the way: the speed of light. Really its just not fast enough. Now, when you're young and rather open-minded, the solution is easy enough: just go faster. It's of course not that simple, however from a combination of what I've seen firsthand, experimental work that's been done in the past by both the establishment scientific community and the 'fringe', and an unshakeable personal feeling, I think its possible. In plainer terms, my research interest is in figuring out how to go faster than light. Now that particular corridor of research has many doors, some lead nowhere, others to wide expanses of knowledge. Most are still locked doors, and I feel like I am in a desperate search to find the keys. Its difficult to convey the sense of meaning behind my use of the word 'desperate'...doing my experiments, studying theories that might point to possible avenues of future experimental work, all of these give me a feeling of great joy. I don't know if this makes any sense to you, the reader, but for me the need to do this work, to try and find out something new that might help unlock some of those doors to knowledge is a heartfelt passion of the deepest sense. Unfortunately, when something means this much to you, constant criticism by your peers starts to take its toll. This is especially true when you're young like me. I'm not even 21 yet, will be in a little over a month. People in my age group, by and large, seem to not care in the least about anything for the future. As a coworker says, 'live for now, f*ck the future'. Back home it wasn't really like that. But now that I've moved, I get this every day. Something I've been involved in with some friends, two of whom are now in Iraq serving their various branches of the armed forces, is a replication and expansion of Thomas Townsend Brown's work. I know, that one's been done to death. Still there is something almost magical about applying power to a machine you built and having it silently begin to swing a wooden beam around in a circular arc. I don't really know if you could say that this is Brown's work, as the things I am making aren't much like his. But I'd still like him, even though he is now deceased, to get a bit of recognition. So in my mind, I'm trying to carry his torch. I've mentioned this work to coworkers, 'friends' of my girlfriend and her family, who ask 'what do you do for fun.' I tell them I work on my project car, which makes perfect sense to them...that's a noble cause. But then when I mention I do experiments for fun...well, on a good day they just say "ok....whatever". On a more normal day, I can get openly mocked. I've never understood this. Nor do I understand the 'I don't care' attitude of those around me. I hope its just my location. But it's damn sure taking its toll on me. I saved bits and pieces of my paychecks each week for a project I planned. After my move to New York from my home in Mississippi, I didn't have all my equipment any more. One thing that got left behind, as it was too hard to ship or place in a car was my old 100kV power supply. So, now at my new residence, I set about designing a new supply. This thing is probably the ugliest device I've created...saltwater capacitors, PVC pipes filled with motor oil and diode strings, car ignition coils, etc. Its big and bulky, it has bits of 'silly putty' stuck to certain parts that gave bad corona problems. But when you turn this thing on, it gives blindingly bright sparks. Through crude measurements I've placed the voltage at over 200kV, probably approaching 250kV. Its exactly what I needed for work on Brown-type experiments and my own derivations and designs. So far I've had no problems from this supply. It goes to show you what can be done on a limited budget. You don't need thousands of dollars to make a nice HV supply...I did it for less than $100 by using cheap and scavenged parts. And this stuff is all readily available. Then I showed some people this thing, the same ones I mentioned above. The sparks were 'cool', but when they asked me why I made this, then the trouble started. I was told that my time would be better spent getting laid, partying, getting drunk or preferrably all three at once. So far I haven't found anyone nearby that thinks differently. I know they're out there, but when you begin to feel isolated from them, with no means of reaching out, its like the air is thinning out around you. Couple that with the fact that I've always fought depression, and you begin to get an idea of how bad things can get. My girlfriend says I shouldn't take things that seriously, and I shouldn't. But it always ends up getting to me. And then I begin to feel like I do now: that maybe I am the one who went wrong. Maybe I shouldn't be interested in this stuff at all anyways. Is it just a waste of time? Hell, I'm barely out of my teens, its not like I can make a difference. Then I stop myself and think, how many others out there think like this? I get this image of a kid living in an inner city 'hood' who might be the next Tesla or Einstein, but who finally succumbs to the situation he is in, and that person who might have been a bright light in the world suddenly fades back into darkness. Now, I am uncertain as to whether or not to even continue my work. Besides, everyone else is doing it. There's the guys at NASA and the whole Jeff Cameron 'lifter' thing, there's Hector Serrano and his Gravitec Inc. website, with a stern warning seemingly there to deter others working on anything remotely related to Brown and electric field propulsion. So I guess I could get in legal trouble if I do anything with this, particularly publish anything. So is there really any point to me doing this? Or should I just say 'time passed me by' and give up on Brown's work, leaving it to Serrano and such? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. In conclusion, let me ask you, what are our intentions? Are we here to make money off of this, to profit from it? Are we here just to do the 'impossible'? What is the fringe science field really doing right now to make a difference, and make these things become reality? Me personally, I'd like credit where credit is due. I'd like to have people say my name if I am truly the one who came up with something useful. As far as the money part goes, I'd like to make a nice living, but as for making millions, I honestly don't care. Sometimes being poor, having to make do, makes you more inventive I think. So that's sort of my story. Any comments, thoughts, will be appreciated. I hope some of what I've said makes some sense, and doesn't just seem like a disconnected bit of nonsense. I remain, hopefully, the amateur scientist, one who experiments not because it is his job, but because it is what he loves. All the best, Kyle R. Mcallister __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 14:42:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA04805; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:41:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:41:51 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c3f995$0bf67390$1932010a@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: Subject: Mars Color Imaging Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:41:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"osP5e2.0.zA1.k0JE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53224 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can confirm the work of Rick Monteverde. It looks like we have blue-green rocks on Mars. Here's a page describing my work. http://www.golddirectory.com/images/blue.htm Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 16:06:04 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA09587; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:02:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:02:31 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001301c3f995$0bf67390$1932010a@Craig> References: <001301c3f995$0bf67390$1932010a@Craig> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:02:20 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mars Color Imaging Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA09563 Resent-Message-ID: <"EBa1y.0.lL2.MCKE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53225 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig - Thanks for the confirmation, it looks good. I know things are still a little bit off, but we're close enough that I'm confident there's no mistaking that the rocks there really are blue-green. I've made many attempts at adjusting the color further to match the calibration image from pictures of it taken on earth, and even when I get the colors swinging off pretty far, the turquoise rocks will shift in tone this way or that a little bit, but they're still pretty much turquoise. Turquoise, chrysocolla, azurite, malachite, even hematite often run around together, and are minerals thought to be formed when water percolates through certain other rocks and clays. Read Dark Life, and from the discoveries in the caves, you might also think that certain tiny bacteria might have had a role in precipitating them. - Rick >I can confirm the work of Rick Monteverde. It looks like we have blue-green >rocks on Mars. > >Here's a page describing my work. > >http://www.golddirectory.com/images/blue.htm > >Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 18:11:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA13666; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:07:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:07:47 -0800 Message-ID: <006801c3f9b1$d263a860$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <001301c3f995$0bf67390$1932010a@Craig> Subject: Re: Mars Color Imaging Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:07:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"IeAsb1.0.UL3.p1ME01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53226 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>> Thanks for the confirmation, it looks good. I know things are still a little bit off, but we're close enough that I'm confident there's no mistaking that the rocks there really are blue-green. I've made many attempts at adjusting the color further to match the calibration image from pictures of it taken on earth, and even when I get the colors swinging off pretty far, the turquoise rocks will shift in tone this way or that a little bit, but they're still pretty much turquoise. Hello Rick! I think there may be a problem with the way were doing this. The filters are rather narrow. Let's say there was a strong line just below the red band we're looking at, (say at 700nm). Our red filter wouldn't pick it up, but it could make the rocks look very red. Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 18:26:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA26676; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:25:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:25:43 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006801c3f9b1$d263a860$6401a8c0@Craig> References: <001301c3f995$0bf67390$1932010a@Craig> <006801c3f9b1$d263a860$6401a8c0@Craig> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:25:29 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mars Color Imaging Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA26633 Resent-Message-ID: <"CV5cH1.0.mW6.cIME01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53227 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig - I don't know if that's a practical problem or not. I doubt there's many reflective things in the natural world that are red in only a 20nm stripe and would look blue or green otherwise in open sunlight. The calibration disk tells the story, and that's why they put it there. I think we're probably ok. - Rick > >Hello Rick! > >I think there may be a problem with the way were doing this. The filters are >rather narrow. Let's say there was a strong line just below the red band >we're looking at, (say at 700nm). Our red filter wouldn't pick it up, but it >could make the rocks look very red. > >Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 18:37:07 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA03706; Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:36:27 -0800 Message-ID: <009901c3f9b5$d4be6470$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <001301c3f995$0bf67390$1932010a@Craig> <006801c3f9b1$d263a860$6401a8c0@Craig> Subject: Re: Mars Color Imaging Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:35:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"CexLv2.0.lv.gSME01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53228 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I don't know if that's a practical problem or not. I doubt there's many reflective things in the natural world that are red in only a 20nm stripe and would look blue or green otherwise in open sunlight. The calibration disk tells the story, and that's why they put it there. I think we're probably ok. I took a look at all the images that were taken of this shot. The blue rocks get darker with the lower frequency filters, and brighter with the higher frequency filters. I think now that it would be quite odd to have a red rock which just progresses from black to white along the 7 filter frequencies used. So I think you're right agian. http://www.golddirectory.com/images/blue.htm Craig From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 13:08:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA23593; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:04:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:04:06 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:08:52 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Story of an amateur scientist (long) Resent-Message-ID: <"t8xhR2.0.am5.6hcE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53229 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle, Your story is only beginning. I am approaching the end of mine, so I would like to pass on some of what I have learned from my own experiences. When I was young I had similar feelings to yours. I too am an amateur physicist, and amateur mathematician as well. I am retired and do these things on my own time and at my own expense and certainly thus far without any financial gain. At long last I can spend a fair amount of time doing what I love in the manner I choose to do it. But even in retirement I have so many things to take care of that I can not do what I want all the time. Money and physical space are greatly limited too. My mobility and quickness wither with the onset of age. In my long experience I have found that it is not reasonable to expect to both earn money and to also do what you want when you want and the way you want to do it. If you are getting paid, even if only via investors, stockholders, or government grants, then you have a boss who has a right to expect you, within some reasonable bounds, to do what he wants, in the manner he wants it done, in the timeframe he expects it to be done. The more qualifications you have the more flexibility in the boundaries, but they are always there in some form. It is a simple fact of life that if you want your boundaries expanded you have to pay your dues. The dues are paid by either gaining academic credentials and work experience, or by saving the money required in order to support you so you can do what you want. My strategy was to work at the best paying job I could find, in order to eventually create a means to work at what I really enjoyed in my own time and own expense. This was not a good stratgy for me because I wasted most of my life doing things I did not want to do. Earning a living and having a life is a full time effort. It think it must be much better to be able to do what you love every day of your life, to have a job that fulfills you, that makes you eager to get up in the morning and get to work. If you can do this then you can have that benefit and yet also someday retire and work in a manner of your own choice. If you die early, well, then you have still have had the most fulfilling life possible. The message here it seems to me is that to do interesting physics you should get your graduate degrees and do the post-doc work that is required in order to get the credentials or tenure you need to get some control of and funding for the things that are important to you. Forget the booze because it will only kill off your brain cells for short term gain and long term pain. Chasing women is a waste of time too, and can also be hazardous to your health. Getting married to the right person and having children though, when you are mature enough, is a fantastic and fulfilling journey. That is just not something you can or should rush though. Be patient. Problems like free energy and electromagnetic thrusters are high risk. They deserve being attacked by the combined resources of humanity because the potential benefits are so great. It is a great thing for amateurs working at their own expense to do too, because it is so exciting and fun. Because the odds against success are likely greater than those against winning a lottery, it is not reasonable to expect to make a living at it, or even to solicit funding unless you have extraordinary credentials. Still the effort of pursuing scientific anomalies in order to ferret out possible colossal gains for society is a worthy cause, regardless the motives of those who pursue it. It is also a worthy pursuit to share experiences and ideas related to the effort, and to support each other in that effort. That I think is why vortex exists. That is why we are here. My advice is get educated, get experience, stay out of debt except for real estate - where it is good to invest your spare money, be honest with yourself and others, stay sober, be patient, and you should live a happy prosperous life. Lastly, I would like to talk about recognition. If you have the privilege of working on really important stuff, and are successful, you may well not be able to ever speak of, much less be recognized for, your success. To expose the success may jeapordize your country or humanity itself. It is important to have the maturity to be fully satisfied by the work and the personal knowlege of your own success. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 18:15:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA00773; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:12:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:12:26 -0800 Message-ID: <003701c3fa7b$a2ff2f20$6501a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: Subject: More on Mars Imaging Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:11:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"KmCur.0.1C.9ChE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53230 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: After searching the internet, I found that the human eye is most sensitive to light at these points: Red 590 nm Green 535 nm Blue 430 nm When using filters from the Mars pan-cam which most closely approach those hues, I find that, not only do I get a better looking image from the color wheel, but that the turquoise rocks seem to turn grey. This makes sense to me since the primary colors are red, blue, and green. Objects which are blue and green should turn grey when mixed with red light. The previous images were made with red filters which were too low and hence, probably not producing the same intensity of light as at the human perceptible frequency. By using a filter at a higher frequency, I'm probably now getting a better mix of colors. However, I no longer see the turquoise. Check it out. http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars1.htm Sincerely, Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 18:43:59 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA18553; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:42:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 18:42:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003701c3fa7b$a2ff2f20$6501a8c0@Craig> References: <003701c3fa7b$a2ff2f20$6501a8c0@Craig> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:41:58 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: More on Mars Imaging Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA18524 Resent-Message-ID: <"2WOSa1.0.rX4.7ehE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53231 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig - I still see the turquoise just as well with the 4-5-7 when there's any of it handy. The only problem is I can't find a lot of images in those filters that happen to have some obvious turquoise pebbles in the foreground. It's not all over the place everywhere. But you found the same image set I did and got the same result: that tire track shot. Look along the tracks in the Spirit Sol 49 image you made, presumably with the 4-5-7 combo. There's not only bits of that same bright blue-green turquoise, but also bits of intense blue azurite-looking material. I think that's also a little turquoise in the foreground between the tracks but it is sort of grey, like you said, I believe because of being stained and dusted over with the standard red dirt. The stuff on the surface at Laguna Hollow was probably a little brighter due to less dust coating for some reason. But the bits in the tracks clenches it for me. Freshly churned up without the dust, it's an unambiguously bright green and blue. - Rick >After searching the internet, I found that the human eye is most sensitive >to light at these points: > >Red 590 nm >Green 535 nm >Blue 430 nm > >When using filters from the Mars pan-cam which most closely approach those >hues, I find that, not only do I get a better looking image from the color >wheel, but that the turquoise rocks seem to turn grey. This makes sense to >me since the primary colors are red, blue, and green. Objects which are blue >and green should turn grey when mixed with red light. The previous images >were made with red filters which were too low and hence, probably not >producing the same intensity of light as at the human perceptible frequency. >By using a filter at a higher frequency, I'm probably now getting a better >mix of colors. However, I no longer see the turquoise. > >Check it out. > >http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars1.htm > >Sincerely, > >Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 22:55:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA05300; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:53:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:53:42 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:58:37 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: More on Mars Imaging Resent-Message-ID: <"xbLce2.0.jI1.sJlE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53232 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:11 PM 2/23/4, SnowDog wrote: >Check it out. > >http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars1.htm > >Sincerely, > >Craig Haynie (Houston) Wow, these are some really well done composites in that the detail comes out really fine. I noticed that the big dark blue rocks in one of the spirit photos look like they are actually brown rocks that are coated with something. On many rocks the coating is darker on top, and some rocks look like thay were turned over after they were coated. This is very reminiscent of "desert varnish." See: especially about the third example down that has a knife in the photo. The desert varnish there looks like it is dark blue. It comes in many colors though. Yet more evidence for cyano-bacteria on Mars. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 23:04:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA09078; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:03:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:03:57 -0800 Message-ID: <010401c3faa4$5e217f60$6501a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: Subject: Re: More on Mars Imaging Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:03:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"Futps2.0.mD2.TTlE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53233 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I noticed that the big dark blue rocks in one of the spirit photos look > like they are actually brown rocks that are coated with something. On many > rocks the coating is darker on top, and some rocks look like thay were > turned over after they were coated. This is very reminiscent of "desert > varnish." See: I've noticed the blue in the landscape, too. I even found it in a NASA composite. http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/feb-15-2004/x_pubeng-med.jpg Craig From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 00:52:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA22234; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:51:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:51:23 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c3fab3$4bc4bb20$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Subject: Re: Story of an amateur scientist (long) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:50:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"EwUHO2.0.GR5.A2nE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53234 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Congratulations Kyle and Horace - two of the most involving off topic posts I can remember seeing. Kyle is young and Horace is oldish and I am somewhere in between, but their stories and experiences reminded and spoke to me... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 04:23:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA05267; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:19:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:19:06 -0800 Message-ID: <20040224121902.8859.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:19:02 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: More on Mars Imaging To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <010401c3faa4$5e217f60$6501a8c0@Craig> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"4qHIW.0.DI1.w4qE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53235 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040224/t/r2308377809.jpg pic from nasa, not as striking in color, but ill be damned if it doesnt look more like aged tourqouise. --- SnowDog wrote: > > I noticed that the big dark blue rocks in one of > the spirit photos look > > like they are actually brown rocks that are coated > with something. On > many > > rocks the coating is darker on top, and some rocks > look like thay were > > turned over after they were coated. This is very > reminiscent of "desert > > varnish." See: > > I've noticed the blue in the landscape, too. I even > found it in a NASA > composite. > > http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/feb-15-2004/x_pubeng-med.jpg > > Craig > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 07:02:26 2004 Received: from ultra1.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra1.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra1.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i1OF2LrM004665; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:02:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra1.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i1OF27Do004564; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:02:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:02:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra1.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c3fae7$2bcd73a0$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> From: "rebrady" To: References: <000d01c3f317$255487c0$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Bird Tracks Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:26:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3FA53.AB293560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53236 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3FA53.AB293560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Picture No. 1M130760921EFF0454P2933M2M1-BR sure looks like bird tracks = -- many nearly identical impressions. What is the explanation? What else would account for = these impressions in this amorphus material? Bob Brady ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3FA53.AB293560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Picture No. 1M130760921EFF0454P2933M2M1-BR sure = looks like=20 bird tracks -- many nearly identical
impressions.  What is the explanation?  = What=20 else would account for these impressions in this amorphus=20 material?
 
Bob Brady
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3FA53.AB293560-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 07:35:46 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA27181; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:31:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:31:08 -0800 Message-ID: <403B6E12.8060102@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:30:26 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bird Tracks References: <000d01c3f317$255487c0$8837fea9@cpq> <000601c3fae7$2bcd73a0$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> In-Reply-To: <000601c3fae7$2bcd73a0$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SyYM42.0.Ye6.xusE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53237 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com rebrady wrote: > Picture No. 1M130760921EFF0454P2933M2M1-BR sure looks like bird tracks > -- many nearly identical > impressions. What is the explanation? What else would account for > these impressions in this amorphus material? New Scientist actually says this could be due to freeze-thaw cycles: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994703 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 07:47:35 2004 Received: from ultra1.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra1.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra1.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i1OFlUrM032568; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:47:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra1.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i1OFlSLj032544; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:47:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:47:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra1.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006d01c3faed$7dfe8050$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> From: "rebrady" To: References: <000d01c3f317$255487c0$8837fea9@cpq> <000601c3fae7$2bcd73a0$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> <403B6E12.8060102@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Bird Tracks Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:47:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53238 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Terry, This picture is very different than the one trench found in the NS report. It shows marks emanating from a point much like bird tracks. It is hard to believe water could do this in this way. This was one of the NEW pictures shown yesterday. Bob > rebrady wrote: > > > Picture No. 1M130760921EFF0454P2933M2M1-BR sure looks like bird tracks > > -- many nearly identical > > impressions. What is the explanation? What else would account for > > these impressions in this amorphus material? > > > New Scientist actually says this could be due to freeze-thaw cycles: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994703 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 08:06:40 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA12917; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:04:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:04:10 -0800 Message-ID: <403B75D8.9090408@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:03:36 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bird Tracks References: <000d01c3f317$255487c0$8837fea9@cpq> <000601c3fae7$2bcd73a0$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> <403B6E12.8060102@rtpatlanta.com> <006d01c3faed$7dfe8050$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> In-Reply-To: <006d01c3faed$7dfe8050$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OC1st3.0.l93.wNtE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53239 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com rebrady wrote: >Terry, > >This picture is very different than the one trench found in the NS report. > You're right. The images the article speak about are Spirit images. You referenced Opportunity. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 08:37:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA28245; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:32:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:32:57 -0800 Message-ID: <001d01c3faf3$d8ccc040$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: The sound of OU Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:32:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA28222 Resent-Message-ID: <"6OBk63.0.Hv6.votE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53240 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sonoluminescence, otherwise described as "light from ultrasound" is a research topic having controversial "free energy" implications and explanations, involving such exotica as the "jounce" of imploding shock waves or Schwinger's Dynamical Casimir Effect (extraction of ZPE energy from the vacuum) and even CF (cold fusion) effects. But it is probably not necessary for achieving overunity in Sonoluminescence to find actual CF effects, such as fusion ash. The overunity could be coming form a ubiquitous 3.4 eV mass/energy particle (aka the electron anti-neutrino) that exists all around us in an enormous but unseen flux. Take a small flask of water coupled to a 25-40 kHz ultrasonic transducer. Cavitating bubbles rapidly form and some of the collapsing bubbles will emit blue light. It is as simples as that... at least until you get to the explanation, which will almost always involves the implications of the "Balmer Series". When hydrogen is excited, there are four visible lines in the spectrum: their wavelengths are 410 nm, 434 nm, 486 nm, and 656 nm. Balmer played around with these numbers and eventually figured out that all four wavelengths fit into an equation that uses the Rydberg constant (R) and gives the longest wavelength, 656 nm, when n=3 and gives each of the shorter wavelengths as n increases up to 6. BTW, 656 nm is the visible color red and the shorter wavelengths correspond to the blue and violet lines. This set of lines is called the Balmer series. Later, other researchers found that in order to explain the series, the formula must be extended into ultraviolet (uv) wavelengths to find the point of origin. The same formula works with larger values of n ...but when n gets bigger, the lines start getting close together so that the series has a 'limit' - a clear and obvious starting point, or origin, where the wavelength is 365 nm, which is derived from a particle having of rest mass of 3.4 eV. What is apparently coming down in sonoluminescence is that sonic energy gets spherically focused in a process known as *spherical convergence* by as much as twelve orders of magnitude. The blue light which is observed is actually the 434 nm Balmer line - but that line is a secondary emission derived from a source uv emission centered at 365 nanometers. The uv continua observed in the sonoluminescence spectra of hydrogen-containing liquids have exactly the same physical nature (radiative dissociation) as does electronically excited H2 molecules. Intensity calibration must take into account the re-absorption in the bubble plasma and liquid (the transparency of plasma-liquid boundary). Thus any spectral curves of sonoluminescence will grossly underestimate for source, that being the 3.4 eV of lambda ~365 nm (symbolized by the Greek letter lambda which doesn't work with plain text fonts) IOW the source of the effect, the uv photon of 3.4 eV is selectively being absorbed, scattered and re-emitted at lower wavelengths until the transparency level is reached. It is blue for the same reason that the ocean seems blue to us - i.e. water doesn't absorb at that lambda = 434-486 nm. But the real point of all of this is: Many OU phenomena may possibly involve somehow increasing the probability of capture of a characteristic interfacial mass/energy particle of 3.4 eV. Jones I should add that if I had a sonoluminescence experiment going and wanted to try something that might make it more efficient, possibly even OU, then that would be somewhat counter-intuitive: it would involve obtaining an efficient source of 3.4 eV radiation (such as gallium nitride LEDs) and 'prime the pump' for more energetic species (hopefully the positron). From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 09:49:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA13052; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:46:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:46:36 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Moving stuff on Mars Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:44:54 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"D1hKJ2.0.uB3.ytuE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53241 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com After losing power for a couple of days as well as a few days from moving my gear to higher ground due to the flooding here, I am back. Despite to the disruption, I see that the Mars investigation continues, and I can already perceive the 'official' conclusion as well as what the reality is, and I will return to my experimentation. cheers > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Sunday, 2004 February 22 11:57 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Moving stuff on Mars >..X..< > any. Apparently "explorecraft" HAS seen movement recently, but he hasn't > been posting lately for some reason. Someone else pointer it out, but the evidence is a bit fringe. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 10:29:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA00423; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:23:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:23:46 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:28:32 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: More on Mars Imaging Resent-Message-ID: <"fNy0A2.0.T6.nQvE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53242 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 4:19 AM 2/24/4, alexander hollins wrote: >http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040224/t/r2308377809.jpg > >pic from nasa, not as striking in color, but ill be >damned if it doesnt look more like aged tourqouise. [snip] >http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/feb-15-2004/x_pubeng-med.jpg Note that only the tops of the rocks look like tourquoise, but not the bottoms. There is a gradual gradation of color depending on angle of the surface. THis is consistent with the color ebing caused by a process, possibly desert varnish, i.e. a bacterial coating. See: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 10:54:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA16188; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:51:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:51:32 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Relativistic mass equivalence Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:49:48 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C3FB41.A6EE7FC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"6m44x1.0.uy3.qqvE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53243 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C3FB41.A6EE7FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Examination of the equivalence principle... I seem to reinvent things on regular basis, and this time I would like to shorten the journey a bit: Further tinkering in search of T T Brown's "electrogravitation force" brought a thought from outside that realm to me: Electrons in 'heavy' atoms such as Lead, Mercury, etc. in the inner orbitals are, in some perceptions, held to have relativistic velocities http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may97/862179191.Ch.r.html My perception of _relativistic_ mass arising from high velocities is that the mass is completely inertial rather than being both inertial and gravitational. This I currently _consider_ possible, despite theory to the contrary. I have a couple of ideas for proving/disproving this in a simple(?) experiment, but I rather imagine someone else has alreay "been there, done that", as this is almost always the case with my experiments. I would imagine someone somewhere has performed experimentation to demonstrate the difference between the gravitational mass and the inertial mass of an object =3Dat relativistic velocities=3D. At first glance, http://35.8.247.219/home/modules/pdf_modules/m110.pdf appears to summarize this sort of thing, but reading the fine print I see they didn't quite get there. They focus on classical velocities. I presume there exists a summary somewhere on the 'net. Or not? Even the famous Uncle Al hasn't really addressed this: http://holtz.org/Library/Natural%20Science/Physics/Conserved%20Quantities= .htm although he appears to have come close. Anyone seen anything like that? Anywhere? ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C3FB41.A6EE7FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Examination of the=20 equivalence principle...
 
 
I seem to=20 reinvent things on regular basis,
 and this time=20 I would like to shorten the journey a bit:
 
Further tinkering in=20 search of T T Brown's
 "electrogravitation force"
 <as opposed=20 to the 'Lifter' ionic force'>
 brought a=20 thought from outside that realm to me:
 
Electrons in 'heavy'=20 atoms such as Lead, Mercury, etc.
 in the inner=20 orbitals are, in some perceptions,
 held to have=20 relativistic velocities
h= ttp://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may97/862179191.Ch.r.html<= /SPAN>
 
My = perception of=20 _relativistic_ mass arising from
 high=20 velocities is that the mass is completely inertial
 rather than=20 being both inertial and gravitational.
 This I=20 currently _consider_ possible,
 despite theory=20 to the contrary.
 
I have = a couple of=20 ideas for proving/disproving this
 in a simple(?)=20 experiment, but I rather imagine someone else
 has alreay=20 "been there, done that", as this is almost always
 the case with=20 my experiments.
I = would imagine=20 someone somewhere has performed
 experimentation to demonstrate the = difference
 between the=20 gravitational mass and the inertial = mass
 of an object=20 =3Dat relativistic velocities=3D.
 
At = first=20 glance,
http://35.= 8.247.219/home/modules/pdf_modules/m110.pdf
 appears to=20 summarize this sort of thing, but reading
 the fine print=20 I see they didn't quite get there.
 They focus on=20 classical velocities.
I = presume there=20 exists a summary
 somewhere on=20 the 'net. Or not?
 <outside=20 the UFO fringe areas...>
Even = the famous=20 Uncle Al hasn't really addressed this:
http://holtz.org/Library/Natural%20Science/Physics/Conserve= d%20Quantities.htm
although he appears=20 to have come close.
 
 
Anyone = seen anything=20 like that?
Anywhere?
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C3FB41.A6EE7FC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 10:56:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA17668; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:54:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:54:50 -0800 Message-ID: <20040224185438.54348.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:54:38 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: More on Mars Imaging To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"yD4fl2.0.yJ4.wtvE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53244 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com i dunno, it looks more like a thin layer of dust that gets thicker on TOP of the green color, not the green color fading. --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 4:19 AM 2/24/4, alexander hollins wrote: > >http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040224/t/r2308377809.jpg > > > >pic from nasa, not as striking in color, but ill be > >damned if it doesnt look more like aged tourqouise. > [snip] > >http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/feb-15-2004/x_pubeng-med.jpg > > > Note that only the tops of the rocks look like > tourquoise, but not the > bottoms. There is a gradual gradation of color > depending on angle of the > surface. THis is consistent with the color ebing > caused by a process, > possibly desert varnish, i.e. a bacterial coating. > See: > > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 13:49:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA13412; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:45:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:45:58 -0800 From: Baronvolsung@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:45:13 EST Subject: Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age against North America & Europe To: detroit@fbi.gov, SENATOR_MCCAIN@MCCAIN.SENATE.GOV, senator_lugar@lugar.senate.gov, senatorlott@lott.senate.gov, aelewis@provide.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: Baronvolsung@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1077659113" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5007 Resent-Message-ID: <"8HMmj2.0.VH3.LOyE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53245 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com -------------------------------1077659113 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age against North America & Europe I have written this email as a USA citizen to inform my government and other friendly organizations, that I suspect that terrorist groups from Asia, South America, The Third World, The Middle East, and in the inner Earth, may be planing to use Tesla electroscalar wave and radiation neutrino weather modification energy technologies to engineer an Ice Age to occur in North America, Europe, and Russia around 2014 to 2020 as a means of warfare against those cultures, if nuclear and other terrorist threats fail to conquer Western America and Europe. The Western cultures of North America, Europe, and Russia, can also use Tesla scalar wave weather control and force field technologies to not only prevent an ice age, but to also maintain a stable and safe atmosphere and temperature, but their governments and private organizations must publicly be aware of the threat and the Tesla scalar wave technologies that may be used against them by secret organizations and by their enemies who may also control their government, the scientific community, and the public media to misinform them about weather control technologies and trends and catch them off guard. >From information that I have received, it is expected that the North American and European cultures will become very prosperous and independent of the rest of the World starting around 2013, and consequently there seems to be this very desperate attempt by the rest of the World to completely destroy all societies in the North America and Europe to prevent their success in the future. There are conspiracies to collapse the Western economy also even if nuclear wars, and weather wars can be avoided. The potential misinformation and projections about the future leaked by the enemies of North America, Europe, and Russia, could persuade those societies to simply give up rather than put up a good fight and prepare for a bright and prosperous future. Since some of the US government is controlled by other nations and secret organizations who are the enemies of North America, then the US government may not use Tesla scalar wave weather control and force field technologies to defend the weather of North America from weather and nuclear wars. I have written this email to get some friendly parts of the US government to defend North American citizens from weather, economic and nuclear wars. Since much of the US government may be run by bribes and enterprises for profit that our enemies may offer, we need to encourage the parts of the US government which are more interested in defending the North American cultures to help us than to gain personal profit. Many of the states near the South of the USA may not be affected as much from a weather control engineered ice age, and may be tempted to work with the rest of the World against the northern states of North America to collapse the North American societies by means of weather control, nuclear wars, and economic collapses. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com -------------------------------1077659113 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age against North America= & Europe
 
I have written this email as a USA citizen to inform my government and=20= other friendly organizations, that I suspect that terrorist groups from Asia= , South America, The Third World, The Middle East, and in the inner Earth, m= ay be planing to use Tesla electroscalar wave and radiation neutrino weather= modification energy technologies to engineer an Ice Age to occur in North A= merica, Europe, and Russia around 2014 to 2020 as a means of warfare against= those cultures, if nuclear and other terrorist threats fail to conquer West= ern America and Europe.   The Western cultures of North America, E= urope, and Russia, can also use Tesla scalar wave weather control and force=20= field technologies to not only prevent an ice age,  but to also maintai= n a stable and safe atmosphere and temperature, but their governments and pr= ivate organizations must publicly be aware of the threat and the Tesla scala= r wave technologies that may be used against them by secret organizations an= d by their enemies who may also control their government, the scientific com= munity, and the public media to misinform them about weather control technol= ogies and trends and catch them off guard.
 
From information that I have received, it is expected that the North Am= erican and European cultures will become very prosperous and independent of=20= the rest of the World starting around 2013, and consequently there seems to=20= be this very desperate attempt by the rest of the World to completely destro= y all societies in the North America and Europe to prevent their success in=20= the future.  There are conspiracies to collapse the Western economy als= o even if nuclear wars, and weather wars can be avoided.   The pot= ential misinformation and projections about the future leaked= by the enemies of North America, Europe, and Russia, could persuade those s= ocieties to simply give up rather than put up a good fight and prepare for a= bright and prosperous future.  
 
Since some of the US government is controlled by other nations and secr= et organizations who are the enemies of North America, then the US gove= rnment may not use Tesla scalar wave weather control and force field technol= ogies to defend the weather of North America from weather and nuclear wars.&= nbsp; I have written this email to get some friendly parts of the US go= vernment to defend North American citizens from weather, economic and n= uclear wars.   Since much of the US government may be run by bribe= s and enterprises for profit that our enemies may offer, we need to enc= ourage the parts of the US government which are more interested in defending= the North American cultures to help us than to gain personal profit. =20= Many of the states near the South of the USA may not be affected as much fro= m a weather control engineered ice age, and may be tempted to work with the=20= rest of the World against the northern states of North America to collapse t= he North American societies by means of weather control, nuclear wars, and e= conomic collapses.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: w= ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: = www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\n= ewage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation=20= Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com
-------------------------------1077659113-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 14:15:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA25551; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:13:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:13:02 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:17:51 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: More on Mars Imaging Resent-Message-ID: <"JTpzK3.0.8F6.jnyE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53246 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 10:54 AM 2/24/4, alexander hollins wrote: >i dunno, it looks more like a thin layer of dust that >gets thicker on TOP of the green color, not the green >color fading. [snip] >>http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040224/t/r2308377809.jpg [snip] >>http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/feb-15-2004/x_pubeng-med.jpg [snip] Could be. That's certainly a good working hypothesis. It seems to me strange under either hypothesis that the big flat "boat" rock in the center of the photo appears to be covered deep with dust while other big rocks are not. Something else stange I noticed in some of the most recent Spirit photos is the fact there are broad areas where the rock shading is in exactly the opposite manner. That is to say, the shading is light on top, dark to the sides. Could mean dust on top but not to the sides. Could mean a light colored species of bacteria is muching on the rock. (Desert varnish comes in lots of colors). Could mean something else. Hard to say. It is of possible relevance that Spirits's rock brushing on Adirondack showed a very black basalt under the light "dust" exterior, yet appeared to be nearly dust free before the brushing. It will be most interesting to see the photos of the new grind on McKittrick Middle Rat rock that Opportunity just completed. It could be that light colored bacteria like basalt and a dark colored species likes carbonacious rock, or some such thing. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 16:14:07 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA31897; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:12:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:12:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:11:55 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Mars Rocks! <- story considered important Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA31868 Resent-Message-ID: <"wnKVO3.0.Lo7.UX-E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53247 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com There's a button on CNN's front page that will list the top stories in order of the public's interest based on the number (and order?) of hits they get. Updated every 20 minutes or something like that. I just noticed it the other day and started using it to see what kind of interest there is in the various news stories - to see, in other words, if most people really would be more interested in the matching tableware than in saving civilization. At the top of todays list: the Mars Rock story! They're really churning at JPL/NASA right now over what they're seeing, confirming what we've suspected on this forum about their reaction to the data. I was afraid the general public interest might be low by now, but apparently it's not. It's just that no real news has been coming out. Good, good fun. Could be big. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 16:34:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA09348; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:32:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:32:18 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Mars Rocks! <- story considered important Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:30:29 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"opt443.0.yH2.Iq-E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53248 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com There's more folk thinking like that: "The best way to know what it is is to run away from it" - Nasa at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=34171 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 February 25 07:12 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Mars Rocks! <- story considered important > > > There's a button on CNN's front page that will list the top > stories in order of the public's interest based on the number > (and order?) of hits they get. Updated every 20 minutes or > something like that. I just noticed it the other day and started > using it to see what kind of interest there is in the various > news stories - to see, in other words, if most people really > would be more interested in the matching tableware than in saving > civilization. At the top of todays list: the Mars Rock story! > They're really churning at JPL/NASA right now over what they're > seeing, confirming what we've suspected on this forum about their > reaction to the data. I was afraid the general public interest > might be low by now, but apparently it's not. It's just that no > real news has been coming out. > > Good, good fun. Could be big. > > - Rick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 17:21:38 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA07475; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:20:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:20:33 -0800 Message-ID: <005301c3fb3d$8f8c0180$6501a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: Subject: Re: More on Mars Imaging Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:20:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"_EqK12.0.lq1.XX_E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53249 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > I noticed that the big dark blue rocks in one of the spirit photos look > like they are actually brown rocks that are coated with something. On many > rocks the coating is darker on top, and some rocks look like thay were > turned over after they were coated. This is very reminiscent of "desert > varnish." See: I wish there was a way to rule-out an imaging problem, which brings blue to the rocks, but I don't think there is with my limited knowledge. Nevertheless, the NASA composite has the blue in it: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/feb-15-2004/x_pubeng-med.jpg And here's another composite with the blue on the rocks, from space.com: http://www.space.com/images/mars_image_040214_02.jpg And I've found much more blue in these new composites that I've put together today: http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars2.htm It sure does look like your desert varnish. And while I'm speculating... those shiny, microscopic, globules look like some Martian plant life to me. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/029/1M130760921EFF0454P2933M2M1.HTML Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 17:34:26 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA13293; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:32:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:32:51 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Mars Rocks! <- story considered important Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:57:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"F22WZ.0.eF3.3j_E01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53250 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Excellent advice. We'll know the fibres are indigenous if we're a good distance away from the landing site and still see them. I expect the large crater we're driving towards would be the likeliest place to find more. You know, it strikes me that if we do find life on Mars, it will surely be found to be closely related to our own. Mars could be a sort of Galapagos Island where life from Earth "blew" to, but adapted in strange ways to the harsh new Martian environment. We know meteoric chunks of Mars can be found here on Earth, the opposite may also be true. But if Life hasn't happened on Mars in the past, it's fair to say that it's happening now. Life on Earth has reached such a state of advancement that it's sprouting metal seed pods... Much more reliable than meteors. Although we all seem to have different ideas about how Life started here, I think it fair to say that once Life _is_ started it is impossible to stop. Cat hairs just get into everything. K. http://www.mingusmingusmingus.com/ownwords/catcatalog.html "...Do it gradually. You've got to get him thinking..." -Chas Mingus on Nightlife- -----Original Message----- From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah@explorecraft.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:30 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Mars Rocks! <- story considered important There's more folk thinking like that: "The best way to know what it is is to run away from it" - Nasa at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=34171 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2004 February 25 07:12 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Mars Rocks! <- story considered important > > > There's a button on CNN's front page that will list the top > stories in order of the public's interest based on the number > (and order?) of hits they get. Updated every 20 minutes or > something like that. I just noticed it the other day and started > using it to see what kind of interest there is in the various > news stories - to see, in other words, if most people really > would be more interested in the matching tableware than in saving > civilization. At the top of todays list: the Mars Rock story! > They're really churning at JPL/NASA right now over what they're > seeing, confirming what we've suspected on this forum about their > reaction to the data. I was afraid the general public interest > might be low by now, but apparently it's not. It's just that no > real news has been coming out. > > Good, good fun. Could be big. > > - Rick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 05:16:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA24618; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:15:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:15:16 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:20:13 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Flowing water on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"4Zye7.0.a06.Z_9F01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53251 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Quickly toggeling between the following newly released Opportunity Pancam photos for Sol 27 it appears there is flowing motion in the apparent "stream" at the bottom right. These photos all use differing filters, so it could be an illusion, but the illusion, if it be that, strangely only occurs in the "stream bed". Unfortunately, the illusion is very feint, and involves only small particles barely visible, but when the photos are toggeled the flowing effect is fairly certain, and is only clear in the stream bed at the sharp bend, right where the highest water velocity would be expected (at least by those with some rafting experience!) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 06:01:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA16417; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:00:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:00:32 -0800 Message-ID: <403CAA5E.6050506@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:59:58 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Flowing water on Mars? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IIcPe.0.P04.0gAF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53252 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Horace Heffner wrote: >These photos all use differing filters, so it could be an illusion, > Those are interesting! This Mars Express image is no illusion: >http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_32_albor_p.jpg< with a magnificient dustfall into Albor Tholus. (Horace, I think if you reverse the arrows enclosing your URLs, as above, it will keep them from wrapping.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 06:22:23 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA25948; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:20:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:20:59 -0800 Message-ID: <403CAF2A.1050206@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:20:26 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Flowing water on Mars? References: <403CAA5E.6050506@rtpatlanta.com> In-Reply-To: <403CAA5E.6050506@rtpatlanta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"80w2K1.0.OL6.AzAF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53253 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Terry Blanton wrote: > This Mars Express image is no illusion: > > >http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_32_albor_p.jpg< > > with a magnificient dustfall into Albor Tholus. BTW, is that a moveable dome over the small crater in the upper left corner? :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 07:09:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA19497; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:07:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:07:32 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040225093917.01b4dec0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:07:26 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mars Rocks! <- story considered important Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eoYVI3.0.Wm4.qeBF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53254 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Rick Monteverde writes: > I just noticed it the other day and started using it to see what kind of > interest there is in the various news stories - to see, in other words, if > most people really would be more interested in the matching tableware > than in saving civilization. At the top of todays list: the Mars Rock > story! > . . . I was afraid the general public interest might be low by now, but> > apparently it's not. It's just that no real news has been coming out. Let us not forget that the public is paying for the Mars expedition, and also for a large fraction of other basic science and medical research in the U.S. and Europe. If the public had no interest in exploring Mars, the Congress would have eliminated funding decades ago. I think the pubic deserves a lot more credit than it is given, it is a lot smarter than it is sometimes portrayed, and I think most scientists owe the public a gigantic Thank You, which they seldom express. Mizuno is the only researcher I know who has ever mentioned his gratitude to society. The others act as if it is their birthright to be supported at a high salary doing work they love, in a world where many people hate their jobs. It galls me is that some medical researchers and a few high tech computer researchers have cashed in on breakthroughs they made using tax money. They have started companies and gone public. Some wealthy publishing companies make a killing selling papers about research paid for by the taxpayers. As far as I am concerned, research performed with public money belongs to the public, period. Every scrap of it should be published on the Internet, without copyright (except for dangerous information relating to national security, biowar, or what-have-you). NASA deserves credit for doing this, and so does the new journal: http://www.plosbiology.org/plosonline/?request=index-html Congress should make it a rule that researchers who accept tax money owe their results to the taxpayers. Government researchers invented computers, the Internet, weather forecasting techniques and many other vital breakthroughs, worth trillions of dollars in the aggregate. They were paid ordinary middle class civil servant salaries, even though some of them, such as Grace Hopper and Niklaus Wirth, contributed more to programming than Bill Gates did. Their reward was the freedom to work on subjects that interested them. That should be good enough. The ones I have known, including my late mother, had no complaints. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 10:01:19 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA15583; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:58:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:58:18 -0800 From: Baronvolsung@aol.com Message-ID: <163.2c1d4f80.2d6e3c11@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:57:37 EST Subject: Re: Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age against North America &... To: detroit@fbi.gov, SENATOR_MCCAIN@MCCAIN.SENATE.GOV, senator_lugar@lugar.senate.gov, senatorlott@lott.senate.gov, aelewis@provide.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: Baronvolsung@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1077731857" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5007 Resent-Message-ID: <"9jCRq2.0.Rp3.v8EF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53255 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com -------------------------------1077731857 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received an email from the CIA which stated that they had caught a person who had traveled back in time from the future about 200 years from now to invest in our stock markets, since he knew that Bush's government would create the lowest stock ratings that would occur for next several hundred years. If the email claims from the CIA above are true, then the USA stock market should improve for the next several hundred years to be better than they are today, which means that there cannot be an ice age in the future or any major disaster that would affect the USA economy for several hundred years to come. I also received emails from the National Security Agency, which stated the types of energy technologies that will be used in the USA for the next 100 years, which means that there cannot be an ice age if these technologies are being used in the USA in the future. Also natural ice ages last for thousands of years, and if there is an ice age than there cannot be persons living in the future near the ice age territories for thousands of years, which seems unlikely. The ice age claims posted by the US government have to be either false propaganda against US citizens to discourage investments in the USA to weaken our economy, or weather warfare illusions that can be easily undone. False rumors leaked by the US Pentagon are being used to ruin the USA economy, by discouraging investments in the USA and North America. >From my understanding, it is very easy to move the Earth's orbit, spin rate, angle of rotation and create extra filters in the atmosphere by means of TESL electroscalar waves, so that we can even improve the weather in North America to be 5 or 10 degrees warmer, and compensate the extra ice melting in the oceans by making the weather in the South Pole cooler by 5 or 10 degrees so that near south America were it is to hot it will be 5 or 10 degrees cooler which benefits both North and South America at the same time. We can even make the deserts fertile near China and in the Middle East with a few degree improvement in temperature and rainfall. In a sense we can create a paradise on Earth in every part of the planet, if we can only get the worlds governments to use weather control to benefit all and not use it for warfare or terrorism against the Northern America's as they presently seem to be doing. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com -------------------------------1077731857 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I received an email from the CIA which stated that they had caught a pe= rson who had traveled back in time from the future about 200 years from now=20= to invest in our stock markets, since he knew that Bush's government would c= reate the lowest stock ratings that would occur for next several hundred yea= rs.  If the email claims from the CIA above are true, then the USA stoc= k market should improve for the next several hundred years to be better than= they are today, which means that there cannot be an ice age in the future o= r any major disaster that would affect the USA economy for several hundred y= ears to come.
 
I also received emails from the National Security Agency, which stated=20= the types of energy technologies that will be used in the USA for the n= ext 100 years, which means that there cannot be an ice age if these technolo= gies are being used in the USA in the future.
 
Also natural ice ages last for thousands of years, and if there is an i= ce age than there cannot be persons living in the future near the ice age te= rritories for thousands of years, which seems unlikely.  The ice age cl= aims posted by the US government have to be either false propaganda against=20= US citizens to discourage investments in the USA to weaken our economy, or w= eather warfare illusions that can be easily undone.   False r= umors leaked by the US Pentagon are being used to ruin the USA economy, by d= iscouraging investments in the USA and North America.
 
From my understanding, it is very easy to move the Earth's orbit,=20= spin rate, angle of rotation and create extra filters in the atmosphere by m= eans of TESL electroscalar waves, so that we can even improve the weather in= North America to be 5 or 10 degrees warmer, and compensate the extra i= ce melting in the oceans by making the weather in the South Pole cooler by 5= or 10 degrees so that near south America were it is to hot i= t will be 5 or 10 degrees cooler which benefits both North and South Am= erica at the same time.  We can even make the deserts fertile near Chin= a and in the Middle East with a few degree improvement in temperature and ra= infall.   In a sense we can create a paradise on Earth in every pa= rt of the planet, if we can only get the worlds governments to use weather c= ontrol to benefit all and not use it for warfare or terrorism against the No= rthern America's as they presently seem to be doing.
 

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: w= ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: = www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\n= ewage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation=20= Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com
 


 
-------------------------------1077731857-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 11:28:34 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA08914; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:24:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:24:11 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:29:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Flowing water on Mars? Resent-Message-ID: <"ISSsq2.0.EB2.RPFF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53256 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 8:59 AM 2/25/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>These photos all use differing filters, so it could be an illusion, >> > >Those are interesting! > >This Mars Express image is no illusion: > > >http://www.esa.int/export/externals/images/ob_32_albor_p.jpg< > >with a magnificient dustfall into Albor Tholus. Holy Niagra Batman! Truly awesome. Make one wonder just how fast little round balls can be blown along or bounce along on a smooth surface. Pretty fast I'll bet, given winds there exceed 150 mpg. Might account for why lots of little rocks anchored to the ground end up pointed at the top. The abbrasion might tend to be much more slightly above the ground than at the surface. > >(Horace, I think if you reverse the arrows enclosing your URLs, as >above, it will keep them from wrapping.) Thanks for the tip! At 9:20 AM 2/25/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >BTW, is that a moveable dome over the small crater in the upper left >corner? :-) I guess every culture worth its salt needs its sporting events. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 11:32:59 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA12297; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:30:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:30:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <163.2c1d4f80.2d6e3c11@aol.com> References: <163.2c1d4f80.2d6e3c11@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:30:38 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age against North America &... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA12122 Resent-Message-ID: <"Nn70C1.0.403.eVFF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53257 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Let this be a lesson to you about drinking Celestial Seasonings Morning Thunder tea while reading the Weekly World News before bedtime. The same thing happened to me. - Rick >At 12:57 PM -0500 2/25/04, Baronvolsung@aol.com wrote: >>I received an email from the CIA which stated that they had caught a person who had traveled back in time from the future about 200 years from now to invest in our stock markets, since he knew that Bush's government would create the lowest stock ratings that would occur for next several hundred years. If the email claims from the CIA above are true, then the USA stock market should improve for the next several hundred years to be better than they are today, which means that there cannot be an ice age in the future or any major disaster that would affect the USA economy for several hundred years to come. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 12:36:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA13620; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:32:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:32:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <163.2c1d4f80.2d6e3c11@aol.com> References: <163.2c1d4f80.2d6e3c11@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:32:56 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age against Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1134381307==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <"hZdvj2.0.fK3.GPGF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53258 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com --============_-1134381307==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" You know, this list is supposed to be science anomolies, not fantasy >I received an email from the CIA which stated that they had caught a >person who had traveled back in time from the future about 200 years >from now to invest in our Why is the CIA sending you emails? > >I also received emails from the National Security Agency, which >stated the types of energy technologies that will be used in the USA >for the next 100 years, which I find it even more incredulous that the NSA is sending you emails. >From my understanding, it is very easy to move the Earth's orbit, >spin rate, angle of rotation and create extra filters in the >atmosphere by means of TESL electroscalar Aside from requiring more energy than our race has yet liberated, what kind of drive are you going to use to accomplish this? --============_-1134381307==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age
You know, this list is supposed to be science anomolies, not fantasy

I received an email from the CIA which stated that they had caught a person who had traveled back in time from the future about 200 years from now to invest in our

Why is the CIA sending you emails?

 
I also received emails from the National Security Agency, which stated the types of energy technologies that will be used in the USA for the next 100 years, which

I find it even more incredulous that the NSA is sending you emails.

From my understanding, it is very easy to move the Earth's orbit, spin rate, angle of rotation and create extra filters in the atmosphere by means of TESL electroscalar

Aside from requiring more energy than our race has yet liberated, what kind of drive are you going to use to accomplish this?
--============_-1134381307==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 12:40:27 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA17581; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:37:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:37:40 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The sound of OU Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:37:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001d01c3faf3$d8ccc040$8837fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <001d01c3faf3$d8ccc040$8837fea9@cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA17514 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bc8QT3.0.TI4.JUGF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53259 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:32:50 -0800: Hi, [snip] >But the real point of all of this is: Many OU phenomena may possibly involve somehow increasing the probability of capture of a characteristic interfacial mass/energy particle of 3.4 eV. If you multiply this by the fine structure constant you get 25 meV, which is about the energy of your average room temperature phonon. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk George Orwell was 20 years off. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 13:20:01 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA07751; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:16:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:16:27 -0800 Message-ID: <20040225211619.3332.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:16:19 -0800 (PST) From: alexander hollins Subject: Re: Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age against To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"NOo2I.0.3v1.h2HF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53260 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com da, am thinkink it time to line tin foil hat wit lead. da! --- thomas malloy wrote: > You know, this list is supposed to be science > anomolies, not fantasy > > >I received an email from the CIA which stated that > they had caught a > >person who had traveled back in time from the > future about 200 years > >from now to invest in our > > Why is the CIA sending you emails? > > > > >I also received emails from the National Security > Agency, which > >stated the types of energy technologies that will > be used in the USA > >for the next 100 years, which > > I find it even more incredulous that the NSA is > sending you emails. > > >From my understanding, it is very easy to move the > Earth's orbit, > >spin rate, angle of rotation and create extra > filters in the > >atmosphere by means of TESL electroscalar > > Aside from requiring more energy than our race has > yet liberated, > what kind of drive are you going to use to > accomplish this? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 13:28:05 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06739; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:18:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:18:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <010a01c3fbe3$4a2ff230$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "SnowDog" To: Subject: Anomalous Balls Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:06:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0107_01C3FBE3.49CBB220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Feb 2004 21:06:52.0078 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A64E4E0:01C3FBE3] Resent-Message-ID: <"P0ee8.0.Ff1.N4HF01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53261 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0107_01C3FBE3.49CBB220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This look more unusual. How does a natural process cause one anomalous = ball to look like it's sprouting another anomalous ball? It also looks = like part of a ball may be broken open, in the center of the picture. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/028/1M130672510EFF0454P293= 3M2M1.HTML Craig Haynie (Houston) ------=_NextPart_000_0107_01C3FBE3.49CBB220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This look more unusual. How does a = natural process=20 cause one anomalous ball to look like it's sprouting another anomalous = ball? It=20 also looks like part of a ball may be broken open, in the center of = the=20 picture.
 
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/028/1M= 130672510EFF0454P2933M2M1.HTML
 
Craig Haynie (Houston)
 
------=_NextPart_000_0107_01C3FBE3.49CBB220-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 13:52:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA28731; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:50:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:50:14 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01c3fbe9$42846330$8857ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <010a01c3fbe3$4a2ff230$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Subject: Re: Anomalous Balls Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:49:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"N6x7A2.0.t07.LYHF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53262 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com There is also a suggestion of thin filaments extanding from the 'bud' to the rock below, as if to achor this entity in place. Mike Carrell ----- Original Message ----- From: SnowDog To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 4:06 PM Subject: Anomalous Balls This look more unusual. How does a natural process cause one anomalous ball to look like it's sprouting another anomalous ball? It also looks like part of a ball may be broken open, in the center of the picture. http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/028/1M130672510EFF0454P2933M2M1.HTML Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 16:39:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA02457; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:37:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:37:59 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:42:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Opportunity grind photos Resent-Message-ID: <"_kcdF3.0.Lc.c_JF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53263 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com See press release and URL from: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040225a.html< Opportunity coincidentally ground halfway through 2 blueberries in the process. Photos somewhat disappointing due to fuzzyness. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 16:54:53 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA12896; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:53:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:53:53 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:53:49 -0000 Subject: Hello! X-Mailer: PowWeb Hosting Webmail version 3.0 Message-Id: <20040226005356.E0371DEF8F@mail02.powweb.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"KpGdM3.0.J93.WEKF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53264 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Vorts, Interstingly enough I found myself traveling down old paths and stumbled across Vortex-L again... seems the usual suspects are still involved. Nice to see and strangely comforting. Life has been good in the 5 years I've been gone from Vortex, at home and with my career. Motorola and I had a parting of the ways, and now I find myself as Director of Product Development for a company that manufactures 2-cycle lawn maintenace equipment. I turned up this old haunt of mine in a seach looking for any new information or developments with regard to Tesla's bladeless turbine (which ironically is the same information search that lead me to Vortex originally). Now with the capacity and resources at my disposal, I am interested in finally exploring a commercial application for it. I look forward to sharing any sucesses and/or failures with the group as I go along. I always found fellow Vorts to be a good litmus test to all my goof-ball ideas in the past. It's time this one got out of the basement and out into the sunshine. Best wishes to all... John Steck From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 00:48:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA16122; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:46:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 00:46:40 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1134337001==_============" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:51:35 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Fiber bundles in grind area Resent-Message-ID: <"6iInw2.0.rx3.l9RF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53265 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com --============_-1134337001==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not all the Opportunity grind photos are completely fuzzy. For example: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/030/1M130859833EFF0454P2959M >2M1.JPG< This photo shows twisted rope-like fiber bundles at pixel coordinates: 494,392; 530,188; 341,136. One of the features is cut and attached. There are also various depressions that have the look of containing a disrupted and mangled fiber mat. Not as clear as the twisted fiber bundles noted above, but it still looks like the grind area had a lot of fibrous material in it. --============_-1134337001==_============ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="rope.JPG" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rope.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEASABIAAD//gAXQ3JlYXRlZCB3aXRoIFRoZSBHSU1Q/9sAQwAB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB/8AACwgAHABYAQEiAP/EABsAAAIDAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgJBgcK BAUD/8QALhAAAgIBAwMDAwUAAgMAAAAAAQIDBAUGBxEAEiEIEzEUIlEJFTJBYRYjM0Lw /9oACAEBAAA/AMi2ktOTWZL9iSGStLQrpYVpTynmQoOVX545PPJ48jorttNL5HUS04aj pJj1sN9bCiM08q/xcRS8gRkycEEg8AcdN/2DsZbWtKfBQxjTumdKUYLFVspELE02QEi0 rz/U127mjbsWSONl4jB8knpyujdyBkNoczWxcPuT6axbSC0PbeCaSN69Q8IeG45Qtw3w CAfPSwt0/UxmtUZavpyhp21YwOOvTfuAjWp75lIeC062O4NGjzRjsUqSg+3k+epnupq3 CZ7bXA6e1lpnNV47RlEcsd2CqFrz04DESUDsf+tRy3yT54Hngc6+hsDiqFPUe2eEzGbz FKxJI6RXluJGI1CxK0MwiUlZGZG8+SP85668nt7uhr3c7S2qosDap5R1xdGetNURi8VG nJHGqJHN7av3MSzAnnjg9MGznp/9QE2jEzVnSd8ValJHqRDHRq/uxxRK0rOLJDxyKwKL 4IHk9Qz09a43J2x1NkrertF5Jp7JWj7kcFSrGsFW07xco8r/AHBQAzfJPk9M80X6hcJJ kqL62mixuMUxSrVdo69lO9T3s00ayAhkICjjxwT1ks3A9FmV0htrmtZRxH2/p7UPEcUq mRqrxErzyF5+4eD+Pj46IT9Pv0Y6p3Qs0MpbqTYnFVr8nvS2opWilRJ2iYkwO3g8q/3L 8Hz560tbabB7AbZ6Gjo6rjoTWsnPax4NORacrzRNHI/c702Z+e0+CeQfJ89e5ez+ymw2 hcvPlq9D9nzZuQVa8priWRPeW12mWWqyvzGVPxwOCf8AOhc9OOqfTfuVnNcNdw2EoRXU lgxz2YcexawMpIWZGjoMSTHwTxwSPnk9FTrbcL0e3srjNOapq6e/b6depVE8X7fW4eKv 7MhDjGM3IEY58A+fHJ+K50LrD0rYIaj0rpanhZMXOs1mnlZzStj6i5caSaFZnx6zn2Ao AUAKAQF8c9Fxt/qzaLS+EjurozE5WSKSSeLIpQxDrGrFSjcz0vc4CtwCCOARx+Og39XX rySPQ4x23WOxk9y3eyOKaCvRx0gg+ljUKDGEhUFXQoe3gkg/gHqC4i5i9K7N1dw9w7eF juZRbNgwvSSvLEGjr2gOWjmTkCwV+1v65+D0uL1F+oDby3l56eAzEZMeNpz+5UumNFaW HgqFWNCGRhw3Hj+h0fue9KGJq7c38HriC9JjK31lpVWzNXZDYaMSNM7CX3IyoAVCCAfI HQ0+r31Gaa9LOweLTZ29g68cjXqXZXqwSZBbtajWkse5bEVZ25mTwOeVbu5JJ5KQ8H+q 5rjAarguWrVi6qvFYgW9JFbprbk73mP09id4+PuIYBRyOByQOhw3d9fm929eXpW83qOJ MRDlLX0tKlDJSi7VEkQDRwW/ZbmIoD9nyOePgdV/gt/Nypp8ccbl8zjYYchM9uxRvWqc bRcFQT9NajbkPwWJ58nn5683VW4O7mIW1krus828EnfYxjWcnlJZGsyH3HDSyXmMiiN/ CcAL89VxpL1cb+bf6ijypzV217jpHWEjTyVW9ou6loJrpRz2n7+R93gn44DB8T+pn6ib GKqRX8pDDZaGOOukNBIIWQRoIy8KXO2TlP58/wAj5P465sJ6796NOO8WSpYrK4ySzLkG ls4OjYYS3XM0/ZLamkKcFgPA+0eBz1ybofqD7w7n4H/jePZlx0SOj1Ya8SogaNYnCLFY VEHKAAKo4A7fPQa397dxIZXV3RWsAxzrcrLPMEB7uVkeViq938QDwoHHjnreTqjNZGz6 btzcrPO0t6rhMg0M8heRkZLlVVILszDgMQOGHWJr1Gbi6uy1zUmnsjlrFvFVMrlrVevP LPMI5bNuRZSvuzOoBUAABR2gADx46nHou2D253SyOJfV+OuXC+VmVvZuGAFRIwA4MUng A+B8D+ur69Rvp02u0NdwdXT2IsVoTkZSRJaWQkmszHkiBOfuAP8A8evnh9kNv7W3EuTf HWEtvJciMkNkRDtiMXZwFiHDfceW55PPnqAfqCbWaR0hsnobIYKtaq2pZJjJL9USX4w1 V+GKohYdxLcMT56T2rNY+gSZi6wMrpyTz3FAp7j/AO3jq9dLXp7skKz9jCBUWPtQLwFX sHP5PH9/n/PHV7aXf9xpWq1tIpIgJAOY17gPc48MQT8ADqCY2CLHZnIJWUKpYnhgGH/m c8AcAAf5+OpJjsZSv1HnswI8hsTDuCqPAfgD+J+Aev/Z --============_-1134337001==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regards, Horace Heffner --============_-1134337001==_============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 04:37:13 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA11482; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 04:36:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 04:36:35 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c3fc65$2bba4530$6501a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: Subject: Blue Rocks Again Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 06:36:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"ijX4B2.0.Mp2.IXUF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53266 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Rick, it looks like your blue rocks are back. http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars3.htm The first picture is composed from single images using filters L4, L5, and L7, and the second one is using filters L4, L5, and L6. Camera Filter (PANCAM only, 0 otherwise) LEFT CAMERA RIGHT CAMERA 1 = EMPTY (clear) 1 = 436nm (37nm Short-pass) 2 = 753nm (20nm bandpass) 2 = 754nm (20nm bandpass) 3 = 673nm (16nm bandpass) 3 = 803nm (20nm bandpass) 4 = 601nm (17nm bandpass) 4 = 864nm (17nm bandpass) 5 = 535nm (20nm bandpass) 5 = 904nm (26nm bandpass) 6 = 482nm (25nm bandpass) 6 = 934nm (25nm bandpass) 7 = 432nm (32nm Short-pass) 7 = 1009nm (38nm Long-pass) 8 = 440nm (20) Solar ND 5.0 8 = 880nm (20) Solar ND 5.0 Does anyone have Imaging or Photography experience? Is it likely these rocks are really blue, or could this be an imaging artifact? Sincerely, Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 08:35:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA32549; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:34:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:34:27 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:39:26 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again Resent-Message-ID: <"8Z2aN.0.Xy7.I0YF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53267 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 6:36 AM 2/26/4, SnowDog wrote: >Rick, it looks like your blue rocks are back. > >http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars3.htm [snip] > Is it likely these rocks >are really blue, or could this be an imaging artifact? They are too blue, at least in my monitor. You can tell by looking at the metal parts of the rover. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 12:03:37 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA01986; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:01:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:01:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:01:00 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA01913 Resent-Message-ID: <"CWmO41.0.vU.G2bF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53268 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Horace & Craig - I composited that image too and noticed the aqua flare on the top of the metal parts. Flushed it down by tweaking color curves but the blue rocks are still there, just a couple shades off that bright turquoise. They're more towards an azurite blue at that point, but still kind of turquoise. Get used to it. - Rick >At 6:36 AM 2/26/4, SnowDog wrote: >>Rick, it looks like your blue rocks are back. >> >>http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars3.htm >[snip] >> Is it likely these rocks >>are really blue, or could this be an imaging artifact? > > >They are too blue, at least in my monitor. You can tell by looking at the >metal parts of the rover. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 14:57:57 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA24627; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:56:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:56:28 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c3fcbb$ae9610a0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "SnowDog" To: References: Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:55:50 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Feb 2004 22:55:53.0562 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFD5E3A0:01C3FCBB] Resent-Message-ID: <"QStNH1.0.l06.ScdF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53269 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > I composited that image too and noticed the aqua flare on the top of the metal parts. Flushed it down by tweaking color curves but the blue rocks are still there, just a couple shades off that bright turquoise. They're more towards an azurite blue at that point, but still kind of turquoise. There's a presentation at Texas A & M University this Saturday, and I'm going to try to attend. http://www.theeagle.com/aandmnews/022604marslectures.htm If I get the chance, I'll ask him about the blue we're finding in our photographs. Someone suggested that maybe the atmosphere is reflecting more red light back into space, leaving more blue light at the surface, since the blue light reflects and refracts less easily -- and this makes some sense to me. There is one thing that I see, of note: the blue areas are brighter in the images filtered through the higher frequencies. There is more light coming through in each, and every one, of these blue areas, at the higher frequencies. The only way to get rid of the blue without adding additional color, is to use a higher frequency filter for the RED light, (because the blue areas are brighter in the higher frequency filters), or to use a lower frequence filter for the BLUE light. This is why changing the red filter from L3 to L4, (a higher frequency filter), makes objects appear less blue, as does dropping the blue filter from L7 to L6, (a lower frequency filter). The point is that there is a steady progression from dark to light, in each of these blue areas, as one looks at images progressively through the filters from red to blue. Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 15:21:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA05304; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 15:19:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 15:19:26 -0800 Message-ID: <008c01c3fcbe$e25b0eb0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <001b01c3fcbb$ae9610a0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:18:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Feb 2004 23:18:48.0468 (UTC) FILETIME=[E357E540:01C3FCBE] Resent-Message-ID: <"9ole7.0.qI1.-xdF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53270 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I think the first image, of these two, is just an anomaly. I just noticed that they reimaged the same spot, just 20 minutes after they imaged it the first time, using the same filters, and they got MUCH different results. I wonder what could cause such a difference? http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars4.htm Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 16:21:02 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA05678; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:19:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:19:13 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Blue Rocks Again Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:44:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <008c01c3fcbe$e25b0eb0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"_MDbo.0.gO1.1qeF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53271 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Craig. I think the sun is setting in your first image set, At what point in the Sol was the set taken? I've wrestled with this sort of color issue before. What we need is a printed card identical to the color disk on the rover. Or lacking that, the Pantone values or some other standard color chart values. They seem to point the cameras up occasionally, these images should tell us about what the sunlight looks like, BTW does the Rover have headlights??? If your color monitor is calibrated correctly and you composite the image given some of the good advice I've seen posted here, the card will match the screen image. I've seen monitor calibrators for the photographic profession, they are photosensors you hang over the front of the CRT and some software is provided to tell you how to adjust things. Photoshop has a calibration program which uses your eyeballs, look under the Help menu for "Color Management". K. -----Original Message----- From: SnowDog [mailto:SnowDog@GoldDirectory.com] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 6:19 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again I think the first image, of these two, is just an anomaly. I just noticed that they reimaged the same spot, just 20 minutes after they imaged it the first time, using the same filters, and they got MUCH different results. I wonder what could cause such a difference? http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars4.htm Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 16:48:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA19474; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:47:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:47:11 -0800 Message-ID: <00f801c3fccb$28b2c130$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <001b01c3fcbb$ae9610a0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <008c01c3fcbe$e25b0eb0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:46:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2004 00:46:38.0969 (UTC) FILETIME=[28CE8690:01C3FCCB] Resent-Message-ID: <"SYBH31.0.Am4.FEfF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53272 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Here's another curious NASA 3D model showing the same blue rocks that I put together in one of my composites: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/jan-12-2004/captions/image-5.html My same picture: http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars2.htm Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 17:14:08 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA31570; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:12:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:12:31 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00f801c3fccb$28b2c130$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> References: <001b01c3fcbb$ae9610a0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <008c01c3fcbe$e25b0eb0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <00f801c3fccb$28b2c130$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 15:12:19 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"moc3l2.0.Dj7._bfF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53273 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Is it my imagination or does the blue sheen on rocks in the Spirit images favor one side of the rocks? - Rick >Here's another curious NASA 3D model showing the same blue rocks that I put >together in one of my composites: > >http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/jan-12-2004/captions/image-5.html > >My same picture: > >http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars2.htm > >Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 17:56:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA17418; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:55:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 15:54:22 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Martian "lichens" = frost? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA17378 Resent-Message-ID: <"XPOSf1.0.2G4.MEgF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53274 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com The latest micro-images form Spirit show a larger than usual amount of dendritic, spiral, and even some rectilinear structures that appeared to have grown on the surface pebbles. It doesn't look like sand or dust that has accumulated in weird patterns, it's pretty uniformly light colored. It makes sense to me that this could be frost. It just has that look to it from the patterns it makes. Then the rover wheels mash it down to a light colored smear, and I don't think tough lichen material would collapse into a flat crust like that, but frost certainly would. The next generation of rovers should have a hair dryer on the tool arm. They could use it to blow dust and frost off the solar cells and other equipment too. - Rick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 18:16:42 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA28236; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:15:21 -0800 Message-ID: <005101c3fcd7$8bd90650$6501a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <001b01c3fcbb$ae9610a0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <008c01c3fcbe$e25b0eb0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <00f801c3fccb$28b2c130$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:14:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"FtM0k.0.8v6.vWgF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53275 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > Is it my imagination or does the blue sheen on rocks in the Spirit images favor one side of the rocks? It looks to me like it favors the left side of the rocks in these images: http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars2.htm and even in this NASA image: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/feb-15-2004/x_pubeng-med.jpg Horace suggested that it looked like Desert Varnish, and I agree on the resemblance. http://www.desertusa.com/magdec97/varnish/dec_varnish.html Craig From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 18:57:14 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA13739; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:56:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:56:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005101c3fcd7$8bd90650$6501a8c0@Craig> References: <001b01c3fcbb$ae9610a0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <008c01c3fcbe$e25b0eb0$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <00f801c3fccb$28b2c130$c828010a@arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <005101c3fcd7$8bd90650$6501a8c0@Craig> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:55:57 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Blue Rocks Again (tracks.jpg attached) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1134271924==_============" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"0Ffz32.0.dM3.M7hF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53276 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com --============_-1134271924==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Craig - What do you suppose made those little tracks in the image? I cut out a snip of the NASA image and attached it here. Looks like something that hops along on two hind feet - maybe some sort of primitive 'mars'upial? 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B/OOv0MY8Cip0JixmmMJilR6cD109wil/wD1cZwCs3+lu3gLZaVb84/mfvv/ALKlfpbe RU5sbnJICs+f/9k= --============_-1134271924==_============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 01:33:45 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA13320; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 01:32:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 01:32:23 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:30:34 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Martian "lichens" = frost? Resent-Message-ID: <"t6MTf2.0.oF3.LwmF01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53277 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 3:54 PM 2/26/4, Rick Monteverde wrote: >The latest micro-images form Spirit show a larger than usual amount of >dendritic, spiral, and even some rectilinear structures that appeared to >have grown on the surface pebbles. It doesn't look like sand or dust that >has accumulated in weird patterns, it's pretty uniformly light colored. It >makes sense to me that this could be frost. It just has that look to it >from the patterns it makes. Then the rover wheels mash it down to a light >colored smear, and I don't think tough lichen material would collapse into >a flat crust like that, but frost certainly would. The lichen fibers are microscopic and mostly water. Their action under pressure should not be much different from ordinary frost - especially if the lichen is dead and decaying. Various of the white berries look under 3D to be little balls of sublimating ice - just what a mostly water fruiting body in decay might be expected to look like. The temperature there is almost always below freezing, but the gel-like insides of Martian lichen would likely have some kind of anti-freeze property like that developed in arctic animals (e.g. propylene glycol in the blood, foot pads, etc.) > >The next generation of rovers should have a hair dryer on the tool arm. >They could use it to blow dust and frost off the solar cells and other >equipment too. > >- Rick Sounds like an excellent idea. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 04:54:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA17674; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:53:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:53:44 -0800 Message-ID: <003301c3fd30$b6e89820$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: Subject: The Color of Mars Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:53:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bv2Aa.0.0K4.NtpF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53278 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I've been looking around the internet, trying to figure out how to confirm the accuracy of these color images that I'm producing, which appear to have a large number of blue rocks, and apparently it seems that the color of Mars is a big issue which is now feeding the hands of the conspiracy believers, who've also noticed the blue rocks and the images produced by NASA, which appear much redder and fuzzy. This is a link to a chat discussion, but the first message contains a reprint from a New Scientist article which quotes a NASA imaging expert as saying that finding the true color of Mars involves 'wizardry', and is a 'subjective job'. "...truly accurate results, the specialists agree, are not going to happen until people have been to Mars and seen its colours first-hand. " http://www.astronomy-chat.com/astronomy/NASAs_images_of_Mars_are_the_wrong_color_612271.html I'm beginning to believe that no one really knows if the blue is really there, or not. When I take a look at the NASA images which have red added to them, such as: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/jan-06-2004/P2302.jpg?IDNumber=pia04995 not only is the image much fuzzier and darker, but the rocks still look blue to me. It's as if they're creating the image by making it redder, because they believe there's a large amount of red light in the atmosphere that's not being picked up by the camera filters, but this addition of red light is distorting the color wheel, and hence would distort something which truly is blue or green in the picture. They may, or may not, be creating an actual view of Mars, as if someone were looking at it directly, but they are distorting the colors of the objects in the process. A human eye, on Mars, would compensate for excessive red light, as it does when viewing objects indoors under an incandescent light or a fluorescent light. If this is what they're doing, then the color needs to be adjusted to reveal the human perceptible colors. Green should look green, blue should look blue, and red should look red. Personally, I think it's incompentent to send a color camera to Mars without the means to calibrate the colors imaged. An elaborate color wheel, with 32 colors on it, from all across the spectrum, with different shades of white to black, would solve this problem, or at the very least, would tell us what kind of imaging and color filtering system we need to send back to Mars on the next mission. Sincerely, Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 08:24:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA29470; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:22:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:22:48 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:27:49 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Grind spot changes Resent-Message-ID: <"JUwsJ3.0.QC7.NxsF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53279 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com There have been significant changes to the Opportunity grind spot area between days 30 and 33. For example compare: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/030/1M130859833EFF0454P2959M >2M1.JPG< >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/033/1M131117213EFF0454P2953 M2M1.JPG< It looks like maybe the area was compressed in the interim. Rock doesn't compress ... or melt. The area have been ground some more, but then that could not account for the fact that the some of dust particles on the blueberries are the same size, shape and location, while others are not. Just doesn't look like rock to me. Previously I noted in: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/030/1M130859833EFF0454P2959 M2M1.JPG< the twisted rope-like fiber bundles at pixel coordinates: 494,392; 530,188; 341,136. One of the features was cut and attached. The really large bundle of twisted fiber appears to have moved considerably inside its niche, something that could not easily happen if it were petrified or made of rock. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 09:32:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA18715; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:30:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:30:41 -0800 Message-ID: <403F7E9F.7000102@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:30:07 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Grind spot changes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dOQ5J3.0.Na4.0xtF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53280 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Horace Heffner wrote: >Just doesn't look like rock to me. > No, it looks like brain tissue that is dehydrating. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 10:02:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA10116; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:01:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:01:33 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:06:32 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Grind spot changes Resent-Message-ID: <"XXgOf2.0.xT2.zNuF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53282 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 12:30 PM 2/27/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Just doesn't look like rock to me. >> > >No, it looks like brain tissue that is dehydrating. My thoughts also! Just too timid to say so! 8^) Some kinds of coral have that look as well. Perhaps lichen-like life forms can form large coral-like colonies, and the outcrop consists of such a colony, or at least the remains of one. Given that it is/was living material at one time it is, at current MArs temperatures, likely frozen and I would expect it in the low pressure Mars atmosphere to sublimate rather than dehydrate in the ordinary sense of melting and evaporation. Sublimation would likely only happen if the outer sheath that protects/protected the living organism from dehydration were disrupted, thus it seems that death and decay would be a very very slow process accelerated during brief warm periods of thawing. Such death and decay could possibly be preceeded by wind driven dust abrasion wearing away the protective outer sheath while the organism is frozen. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 10:10:03 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA15955; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:08:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:08:39 -0800 From: Baronvolsung@aol.com Message-ID: <32.44a97305.2d70e17f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:07:59 EST Subject: Re: Weather Control Being Used to Engineer an Ice Age against To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, aelewis@provide.net, detroit@fbi.gov, rbutner@earthlink.net, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com, senator_lugar@lugar.senate.gov, SENATOR_MCCAIN@MCCAIN.SENATE.GOV, senatorlott@lott.senate.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1077905279" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5007 Resent-Message-ID: <"ImCmP1.0.Ev3.dUuF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53283 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com -------------------------------1077905279 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/25/2004 3:35:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes: Why is the CIA sending you emails? I receive emails from the FBI, CIA, NSA, and from President Bush quite regularly and some of them are posted at the email discussion forums where I am a member. They have their associates send the emails to me who give reference to the above agencies to leak out information or communicate their approval or disapproval of trends and ideas that I have been promoting in emails discussions and with my company ventures. My name is quite well know in government, since as a republican team leader I was placed on the Congressional Medal of Honor list. I also correspond with Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom quite regularly by means of fax and official UK governmental mail replies. Aside from requiring more energy than our race has yet liberated, what kind of drive are you going to use to accomplish this? The earth is a space ship, and since we have developed classified antigravity technologies for space ships by using scalar wave force fields to block out gravity, we can use the same antigravity force field technologies on the Earth to move the Earth quite easily without expending much energy just like a space ship, and we have all of the energy of the sun to use to create antigravity force fields for Earth, since the US military has posted that it has space satellite technologies to convert solar energy into beam energy to create antigravity scalar wave force fields around the Earth, but the only problem is that the US government often works for the enemies of North America or Israel and associates, who may benefit from an ice age in North America, where the real God's Chosen reside. Tesla mentioned that he knew how to move the Earth with his technologies. There is the rumored planet X, which moves through our solar system like a space ship, so we should be able to make agreements with friendly outer space societies to move or maintain the Earth into an orbit and orientation gradually so that it is not noticed or dangerous which gives all societies including the Northern American societies a safe and paradisiacal atmosphere to live in. According to the bible outer space societies often called God made a Rainbow covenant to never flood or create an ice age on Earth again, so the outer space societies should honor this agreement, especially for North America where the Chosen reside. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com -------------------------------1077905279 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 2/25/2004 3:35:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy= @metro.lakes.com writes:
Why is the CIA sending you emails?
I receive emails from the FBI, CIA, NSA, and from President Bush quite=20= regularly and some of them are posted at the email discussion forums where I= am a member. They have their associates send the emails to me who give refe= rence to the above agencies to leak out information or communicate thei= r approval or disapproval of trends and ideas that I have been promoting in=20= emails discussions and with my company ventures.  My name is quite well= know in government, since as a republican team leader I was placed on the C= ongressional Medal of Honor list.  I also correspond with Tony Blair, t= he Prime Minister of the United Kingdom quite regularly by means of fax and=20= official UK governmental mail replies.
 
Aside from requiring more energy than our race has yet liberated, what=20= kind of drive are you going to use to accomplish this?
 
The earth is a space ship, and since we have developed classified antig= ravity technologies for space ships by using scalar wave force fields to blo= ck out gravity, we can use the same antigravity force field technologies&nbs= p;on the Earth to move the Earth quite easily without expending much energy=20= just like a space ship, and we have all of the energy of the sun to use to c= reate antigravity force fields for Earth, since the US military has posted t= hat it has space satellite technologies to convert solar energy into beam en= ergy to create antigravity scalar wave force fields around the Earth, but&nb= sp;the only problem is that the US government often works for the enemies of= North America or Israel and associates, who may benefit from an ice age in=20= North America, where the real God's Chosen reside.
 
Tesla mentioned that he knew how to move the Earth with his technologie= s.  There is the rumored planet X, which moves through our solar system= like a space ship, so we should be able to make agreements with friendly&nb= sp;outer space societies to move or maintain the Earth into an orbit and ori= entation gradually so that it is not noticed or dangerous which gives all so= cieties including the Northern American societies a safe and paradisiacal at= mosphere to live in.   According to the bible outer space societie= s often called God made a Rainbow covenant to never flood or create an ice a= ge on Earth again, so the outer space societies should honor this agreement,= especially for North America where the Chosen reside.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: w= ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark,
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: = www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\n= ewage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation=20= Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com
-------------------------------1077905279-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 10:41:52 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA10581; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:39:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:39:36 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040227133805.01cb6240@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:39:34 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: 3-d glasses sold here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xeWDg2.0.Cb2.dxuF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53284 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com See: http://www.photo3-d.com/ - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 11:03:20 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA10057; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:01:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:01:30 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:06:28 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Color of Mars Resent-Message-ID: <"wltd73.0.5T2.wNuF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53281 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 6:53 AM 2/27/4, SnowDog wrote: >I'm beginning to believe that no one really knows if the blue is really >there, or not. I wonder if it really is all that important how things look subjectively under Mars lighting conditions. Scientifically speaking, it seems to me the spectra are much more important. Unfortunately the images obtained using filters only provide a very crude approximation to the spectra, since sharp spectral lines are not visible. See: >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040226a/14-jb-5- >spectra-B033R1.jpg< However, the data seems to be very useful in determining what rocks are of interest, especially when interpreted within the framework of sky spectral data. It certainly provides a wealth of quantitative information never before available! The truly important question I think all agree is really the question of what is there, not so much what it looks like to the eye. In that light conspiracy theories about what color things are don't really make a lot of sense at this point. Spectral data is available, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence of tampering with it at this point. That is not a subjective matter. it is completely obnjective. Either the data has integrity or it does not. At this point it makes a lot of sense to assume the data is real. No matter how fine the data, it will always raise new issues and questions, and thus it will be desirable to get more precise data, improved and more in depth exploration, and new perspectives. Given the short time the rover capability has been avaiable on Mars, it really has provided a flood of exciting and public information beyond all reasonable expectations a just month ago. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 15:04:58 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA13784; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:01:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:01:10 -0800 Message-ID: <410-2200425272335750@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 27, 2004 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:03:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d834b07967cb84cde2a8ba9db90525d03f2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"lZxxO.0.IN3.smyF01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53285 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki > Date: 2/27/2004 1:35:45 PM > Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 27, 2004 > > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 27 Feb 04 Washington, DC > > 1. THE HYDROGEN INITIATIVE: WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE IT WORK? > Two years ago, Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham announced the > "Freedom Car" program http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn011802.cfm . > It was supposed to stimulate development of hydrogen fuel-cell > vehicles, freeing us from reliance on foreign oil. The big auto > makers pledged their support, but something was missing. A year > later, President Bush announced a $1.2B Hydrogen Initiative to > produce Freedom Fuel to run the Freedom Car. The plan calls for > competitive use of hydrogen in commercial transportation by 2020. > Huge performance gaps in hydrogen engines, production and storage > must be overcome for this to happen. It is likely that the early > phases of any hydrogen economy will rely on production methods > that use fossil fuels http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn013103.cfm . > On Monday, a report critiquing the Hydrogen Initiative, prepared > by the APS Panel on Public Affairs, will be released. > > 2. ITER: NEGOTIATION DEADLOCKED ON LOCATION OF FUSION FACILITY. > What happened? Did I pick up an old newspaper? Or maybe I just > regained consciousness after 20 years in a coma, but the ITER > soap opera seems awfully familiar. In 1992, when it came down to > Japan, Germany, or the USA, the Solomonic decision was to chop it > into three pieces http://www.aps.org/WN/WN92/wn073192.cfm . The > baby did not survive the dismemberment. The decision of the US > to once again enter into negotiations on ITER was announced by > Spencer Abraham in a speech a year ago at the Princeton Plasma > Physics Laboratory http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn013103.cfm . He > dreamed of fusion plants producing hydrogen "to power hundreds of > millions of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles." The deadlock in picking > a site this time is between Rokkasho, Japan and a European Union > site in Cadarache, France, with the US backing Japan. Well, you > didn't expect the US to back a site in France did you? Another > gathering will be held in Vienna next month. > > 3. FIRST AMENDMENT: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS SECULAR SCHOLARSHIP. > The case involved a Washington State scholarship program that > specifically excludes students preparing for the ministry. The > 7-2 decision was widely regarded as a setback for advocates of > using publicly financed vouchers to pay for religious school > tuition. The case also has implications for President Bush's > Faith-Based Initiative that would allow church organizations to > compete for government programs. > > > THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. > Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the > University of Maryland, but they should be. > --- > Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN > You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki@ix.netcom.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-27231J@lists.apsmsgs.org > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 18:16:56 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA30933; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:16:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:16:03 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Yet another microwave experiment Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:14:15 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Ru5m22.0.HZ7.Yd_F01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53286 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com We all know about the use of microwave ovens to perform such interesting tasks such as: * drying off wet kittens * satisfactory reformatting of useless adware CD's * burnt-carbon aromatherapy for the kitchen Puzzling over considerations arising in calculations by Acquino and Woodward regarding dMi as a function of (dE/dT) in mass excitation, I had an idea. If there is a change in gravitational mass between absorbed and radiated emission of energy, it might be possible to observe a mass change during a simple absorption of energy. The thought occurs that observing radiation might be difficult, but observing absorption might not, particularly with a microwave oven. Although the radiation of a heat takes time, the absorption of microwave energy would be relatively instantaneous and constant. Being Friday night and nothing on TV, I decided to fool around a bit, wind up the kids, etc. I filled a 600 gm glass crock with 1.0 liters of tap water. This I placed in my 900w microwave (2450Mhz) and placed it on an aluminium beam-lever to scale down the weight onto my 2 kg scale. The scale (2gm resolution - my only weighing instrument) was at the end of the 90 cm beam while the oven was edge-supported 10 cm from the other end, intending to provide a 9:1 leverage. (The empty oven mass I calculate as roughly 16 kg) ((Measured from both sides, supporting the cabinet requires 1.2 kg on one side, 0.6 kg on the other.)) The glass crock (600gm) containing the water was centered so as to eliminate any imbalance from the rotary table, and I set the power for a medium 'power' level. [note that power is not actually adjusted, merely timesliced segments of 900w apportioned in 10second 'on' periods separated by 20 second 'off' periods.] Turning the unit on, I noticed what appeared to be a 2 gm (resolution limit) fluctuation corresponding to the power cycle. This may have been caused by some arcane coupling through the power fans, but it Aquino was correct it may well be a mass change due to the onset pf radiation absorption in the water. What I would have liked to do is alter the constitution of the water with various additives. I wanted to try a larger mass, varing the material, but the setup described is not something I can repeat due to family intervention a few moments ago, so I am asking if anyone else has ever performed anything similar to this simple experiment... cheers from the institute. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 19:09:00 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA29993; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:08:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:08:10 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:13:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Yet another microwave experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"gniqP.0.ZK7.QO0G01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53287 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 9:14 AM 2/28/4, explorecraft wrote: >Turning the unit on, > I noticed what appeared to be a 2 gm (resolution limit) > fluctuation corresponding to the power cycle. Let me guess. The oven got lighter when the power cycle was on? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 20:29:35 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA10799; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:28:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:28:37 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Yet another microwave experiment Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:53:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"r1IeJ2.0.ee2.bh0G01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53288 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com The golden age of microwave ballooning... K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 10:13 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yet another microwave experiment At 9:14 AM 2/28/4, explorecraft wrote: >Turning the unit on, > I noticed what appeared to be a 2 gm (resolution limit) > fluctuation corresponding to the power cycle. Let me guess. The oven got lighter when the power cycle was on? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 23:37:39 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA16274; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:36:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:36:01 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Yet another microwave experiment Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:34:07 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"kCrR92.0.9-3.VJ4G01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53289 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Oh well, it didn't work out - While the family disappeared shopping I set this back up again and tried it with a longer lever (140 cm/10 cm), and found there was no fluctuation. Investigating further, I found I had a loose ground which was probably somehow coupled onto the aluminium beam, which probably then capacitively coupled into the scale reading. Tut Tut, that's what I get for thinking about Aquino. Back to kittens and other compliance testing... > -----Original Message----- > From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] > Sent: Saturday, 2004 February 28 10:13 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Yet another microwave experiment > > > At 9:14 AM 2/28/4, explorecraft wrote: > > >Turning the unit on, > > I noticed what appeared to be a 2 gm (resolution limit) > > fluctuation corresponding to the power cycle. > > Let me guess. The oven got lighter when the power cycle was on? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 06:56:17 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA12357; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 06:54:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 06:54:32 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c3fe0a$bbc53ee0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Yet another microwave experiment Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 06:54:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA12279 Resent-Message-ID: <"FZ4FO2.0.013.ekAG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53290 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Speaking of wierd and wonderful (or was that insane and beautiful) microwave experiments, here is a lovely photo-essay from the dawn of the microwave era: "A Photographic Essay on the Properties of Microwave Radiation" http://web.mit.edu/mwpstr/www/foto/foto.html Photographer, Fritz Goro, Life Magazine, Radiation Laboratory MIT, September 1945 Follow the photos in order... keeping in mind that this setup was TOTALLY UNSHIELDED and the photographer was apparently unfazed (but likely quite warmed up) from the experience... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 07:16:01 2004 Received: from ultra1.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@ultra1.eskimo.com [127.0.0.1]) by ultra1.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i1SFFxEJ017164; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:15:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra1.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i1SFFejv017137; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:15:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:15:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra1.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003201c3fe0d$b9f02960$af7dfea9@rebradyboxx> From: "rebrady" To: Subject: Bird Tracks Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:15:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C3FDCA.A1C9E490"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53291 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C3FDCA.A1C9E490 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002D_01C3FDCA.A1C9E490" ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C3FDCA.A1C9E490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GlacierLooking at some of the latest images from Opportunity, the so = called bird tracks, are showing up after the abrasion tool has been = used. This could mean that the "tracks" are made by the decay of = something like branches. They are mostly palmate in character, but I = see some other possible branches. It could also mean that this base = material was much like playdough at one time, whereby prints were made = deeply into the substance. What seems true, is that the same type of prints are showing up in = multiple pictures. They tend to be much like bird tracks, with deeper grooving at the ends (like claws) and a rise in the middle. = I can not think of a natural process that would otherwise create these = oddities. Bob Brady ------=_NextPart_001_002D_01C3FDCA.A1C9E490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glacier
Looking at some of the latest images from Opportunity, the so = called bird=20 tracks, are showing up after the abrasion tool has been used.  This = could=20 mean that the "tracks" are made by the decay of something like = branches. =20 They are mostly palmate in character, but I see some other possible=20 branches.  It could also mean that this base material was much like = playdough at one time, whereby prints were made deeply into the = substance.
 
What seems true, is that the same type of prints are showing up in = multiple=20 pictures.  They tend to be much like bird tracks,
with deeper grooving at the ends (like claws) and a rise in the=20 middle.  I can not think of a natural process that would otherwise = create=20 these oddities.

Bob Brady

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Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:28:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:28:43 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <113.2f6f3c6c.2d727dff@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:27:59 EST Subject: I keep working and keep getting more answers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_113.2f6f3c6c.2d727dff_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: <"662yo3.0.DI2.gGIG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53292 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com --part1_113.2f6f3c6c.2d727dff_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the latest on alpha and beta decay the elastic limit of space Frank Znidarsic --part1_113.2f6f3c6c.2d727dff_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the latest on alpha and beta decay<= BR>
the elastic l= imit of space


Frank Znidarsic --part1_113.2f6f3c6c.2d727dff_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 16:47:22 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA27131; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:46:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:46:02 -0800 Message-ID: <00c601c3fe5d$63ba8e50$f9ffa8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: Subject: Color on Mars Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:45:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"VM1I7.0.td6.APJG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53293 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I got to ask a couple of questions to Dr. Mark Lemmon at a presentation he gave at Texas A&M University this afternoon. He's on the imaging team, which, among other things, compiles the color pictures from the raw filtered images from the rovers. I told him that I was creating color images from the raw filtered images from the PanCam, and that I was seeing a lot of blue rocks in the environment. He told me that they're seeing a lot of blue rocks in their images as well, and this is the reason that the small round blueberries they see were named 'blueberries', because they showed up blue in the photographs. But he went on to say that they've done a detailed spectral analysis and believe that those rocks are really grey. He said that I should pay close attention to the color 'black' when calibrating, which he called the zero-point. Considering that Keith Nagel, on this mailing list, told me to pay careful attention to the color 'white', I think I'll try to follow his advice and dig a little deeper. From what I'm finding on the internet from other imaging specialists, it appears that the color of Mars has been on people's minds since the Viking Missions, and that there is a lot of uncertainty in the color, which is due to the unknown effect that the Martian atmosphere has on the light filtering to the surface. There are some excellent suggestions for solving this problem on future missions. I also asked if there was any compelling spectroscopy from the rovers and he said that they're finding basalt in the surrounding environment, but have only starting the up-close work now, with Opportunity on El Capitan. They plan on having a press conference on Tuesday, and he said, "Don't miss it!". He also mentioned that some people commented that some of the microscopic images we've seen might be some type of 'coral', but that's not the prevalent view. Overall, it was quite an enjoyable hour-long presentation, complete with 3D glasses. :) Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 18:02:28 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA25770; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:01:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:01:18 -0800 Message-ID: <40414814.2000308@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:01:56 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Color on Mars References: <00c601c3fe5d$63ba8e50$f9ffa8c0@Craig> In-Reply-To: <00c601c3fe5d$63ba8e50$f9ffa8c0@Craig> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GWe7L2.0.VI6.kVKG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53294 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com SnowDog wrote: >He said that >I should pay close attention to the color 'black' when calibrating, which he >called the zero-point. Considering that Keith Nagel, on this mailing list, >told me to pay careful attention to the color 'white', I think I'll try to >follow his advice and dig a little deeper. > Essentially the same advice. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 19:08:44 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA21778; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:07:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:07:45 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Color on Mars Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:32:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <40414814.2000308@rtpatlanta.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"SozHQ2.0.DK5.0ULG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53295 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi. Here are the photos I was commenting on. Bytor's(!) color photo of the Color wheel. >http://www.golddirectory.com/images/Opp032_456_ColorWheel.jpg< NASA color photo of same. >http://www.exploratorium.edu/mars/images/ronsarticle/dial.jpg< If the black is absolutely black, then we can see pretty easily that the first image is too reddish brown. The rim of the disk should be gold, but instead appears as a weirdish tan. Finally, the white is completely white, quite different from the second photo. That stood out to me, and I agree with your contact that black is important. When I put this question to my landlord, a professional photographer, he said the 50% gray band is key to balancing the color. He he he... If we're two sides of the same coin, does that make my landlord the edge??? I'll quiz him some more next time I see him. Doesn't the rover have headlights? If you get a chance, ask the NASA people if the disk has pantone/pms/whatever calibrated colors. Inquiring minds want to know. K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont@rtpatlanta.com] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 9:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Color on Mars SnowDog wrote: >He said that >I should pay close attention to the color 'black' when calibrating, which he >called the zero-point. Considering that Keith Nagel, on this mailing list, >told me to pay careful attention to the color 'white', I think I'll try to >follow his advice and dig a little deeper. > Essentially the same advice. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 20:44:24 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA13442; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:43:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:43:30 -0800 Message-ID: <40416E37.5070308@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:44:39 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Color on Mars References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GolGb3.0.-H3.ntMG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53296 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Keith Nagel wrote: >If the black is absolutely black, then we can see >pretty easily that the first image is too reddish >brown. > If you're dealing with RGB images, whether you maximize the luminance or minimize it, you still know which filters to use; hence white and black analysis are the same. I think. :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 20:55:00 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA21356; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:54:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:54:17 -0800 From: Standing Bear To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 27, 2004 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:56:41 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <410-2200425272335750@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <410-2200425272335750@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200402282356.41366.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"n2Qq63.0.dD5.u1NG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53297 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > > 2. ITER: NEGOTIATION DEADLOCKED ON LOCATION OF FUSION FACILITY. > > What happened? Did I pick up an old newspaper? Or maybe I just > > regained consciousness after 20 years in a coma, but the ITER > > soap opera seems awfully familiar. In 1992, when it came down to > > Japan, Germany, or the USA, the Solomonic decision was to chop it > > into three pieces http://www.aps.org/WN/WN92/wn073192.cfm . The > > baby did not survive the dismemberment. The decision of the US > > to once again enter into negotiations on ITER was announced by > > Spencer Abraham in a speech a year ago at the Princeton Plasma > > Physics Laboratory http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn013103.cfm . He > > dreamed of fusion plants producing hydrogen "to power hundreds of > > millions of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles." The deadlock in picking > > a site this time is between Rokkasho, Japan and a European Union > > site in Cadarache, France, with the US backing Japan. Well, you > > didn't expect the US to back a site in France did you? Another > > gathering will be held in Vienna next month. > > Eminently logical good friend. It would be more in the interests of the United States to have the ITER that we would not build here at least built in a close allied country like Japan. The Japanese people and government have never thrown us out like the french did in the sixties when our bases in france were summarily closed. The Japanese government never plotted behind the scenes against us in Viet-Nam like the french did. At that time it was like the french not only hated America but also the Viet-Namese. How ironic that during the second world war right after the 'phony war' period at the beginning of the of the battle of france, it was a Viet-Namese unit that was the only unit to stand and fight the German armies as french units on both sides turned and ran. Surrounded and alone, the 'indo-chinese' legionnaires were slaughtered due to the malfeasance and incompetance of the french commander, a worthy aptly named 'Corapp'. Much better this would be built in a country not steeped in duplicity and historical dishonor dating back over 50 years like france. Not only Japan stands with us and we with her, but also Korea. Hundreds of thousands of Korean soldiers fought along side us in Viet-Nam; and over fifty thousand died there. These are our allies and there is where our vote should be. Bush is right there. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 05:27:52 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA15257; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 05:25:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 05:25:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01c3fec7$6a5b2110$c141ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <40416E37.5070308@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Color on Mars Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:24:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"n28nl1.0.Hk3.IXUG01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53298 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Color is a very subjective matter. Human color perception is based on the relative response of the red, green, and blue recptors in the retina. The response-frequency charateristics of these recptors are broad and overlapping. Survival depends on correct identification of color at dawn, sunset, high noon and overcast. In a modern home and city we have no problem identifying 'black' and 'white' even though the incident illumiantion may vary widely. Cameras don't so accomodate, which is evident in any fistful of color prints taken under different conditions. Without a calibration reference such as a color chart on Mars within view of the cameras, trying to judge color correction based on what you see on a monitor is quite hopelss. Years ago Edwin Land cause a stir at optical society meetings by projecting two overlapping images through narrow band filters. Viewers perceived a whole spectrum of tints between the actual projected wavelengths, and if I recall, some tints outside that range. This had theorists scrambling to 'explain' this in terms of three-color perception theory. In principle, it doesn't matter if you use white, black, or neutral gray as a calibration reference, for each is supposedly comprised of equal contributions of R,G,and B. But trying to judge these on a color monitor whose phosphors have their own spectral characteristics, and eyeballs with their own color interpretation system, is at least an interesting adventure in pursuit of an ephemeral truth. Mike Carrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:44 PM Subject: Re: Color on Mars > > > Keith Nagel wrote: > > >If the black is absolutely black, then we can see > >pretty easily that the first image is too reddish > >brown. > > > > If you're dealing with RGB images, whether you maximize the luminance or > minimize it, you still know which filters to use; hence white and black > analysis are the same. > > I think. :-) > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 07:36:35 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA31934; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:34:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:34:11 -0800 Message-ID: <404206B3.6010302@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:35:15 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Color on Mars References: <40416E37.5070308@rtpatlanta.com> <000d01c3fec7$6a5b2110$c141ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <000d01c3fec7$6a5b2110$c141ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"estAJ2.0.wo7.oPWG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53299 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mike Carrell wrote: >But trying to judge these on a color monitor >whose phosphors have their own spectral characteristics, and eyeballs with >their own color interpretation system, is at least an interesting adventure >in pursuit of an ephemeral truth. > Yes, as someone else said, we'll just have to go there! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 08:11:36 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA26315; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:10:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:10:54 -0800 Message-ID: <002101c3fed6$27fdb260$0bc9b141@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: H-OH Gas Generator? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:10:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f155b41414bcc86fd41f1b3bb7037df1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"_zGX13.0.7R6.DyWG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53300 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com If an " atmospheric" (O2-)g ion donates it's electron to a (Na+)aq ion: 1, (O2-)g + (Na+)aq + (OH-)aq ---> (Na)aq + (O2)g + (OH-)aq 2, (Na)aq + H2O + (OH-)aq ---> (Na+)aq + 2 (OH-)aq + (e-)aq + (H)g This suggests a self-perpetuating-hydrogen-generating cycle with a self-limiting build-up of (OH-)aq ions. OTOH, if the electron affinity of the (O2)g molecule is sufficient, the "freed" (O2)g molecule can extract the electron from the "surplus" (OH-)aq ion completing the cycle for the generation of a (H)g + (OH)g mixture that can recombine externally with the release of energy: 3, (O2)g + (OH-)aq ---> (O2-)g + (OH)g 4, (H)g + (OH)g ---> (H2O)g + Heat This suggests that the sodium ions (Na+)aq in sea water react with atmospheric ions and contribute energy to the hurricane vortex. Sparging ion-laden air (from an ion generator or van de graaff) through water charged with salt (NaCl) or baking soda (NaHCO3) should reveal the amount of H-OH gas generated. A swamp cooler or room humidifier loaded with salt in the water basin, confined in a plastic "tent", should work until you set off a spark in it, and it explodes. :-). Regards Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 10:13:20 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA11479; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:12:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:12:05 -0800 From: hamdix@iris.com.tr Message-ID: <000c01c3feef$ccaf8680$c864a8c0@win98> To: References: <40416E37.5070308@rtpatlanta.com> <000d01c3fec7$6a5b2110$c141ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <404206B3.6010302@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Color on Mars Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:13:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"iD8LD1.0.Jp2.rjYG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53301 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > Yes, as someone else said, we'll just have to go there! This would be not enough because human eye has white balance too. That is if one spend few minutes in a room enlighten with a non white light, all the colors he saw (i.e. from the window) get shifted. In Mars, reddish sky may cause a different white balance. On the other hand atmosphere would filter sunlight differently there, causing a different white balance, compensating its effects. For the same reason, previously mentioned subjective color perception is normalized somehow by the white balance under ambient light. That is a grey stone should perceived as grey by everybody despite their possible different color sensitivities of their eyes. To take advantage of the eye white balance feature,I propose to watch color mars pictures in full screen, without frames inside a dark room. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: 29 February 2004 17:35 Subject: Re: Color on Mars > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >But trying to judge these on a color monitor > >whose phosphors have their own spectral characteristics, and eyeballs with > >their own color interpretation system, is at least an interesting adventure > >in pursuit of an ephemeral truth. > > > > Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 10:24:00 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA17927; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:23:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:23:31 -0800 Message-ID: <003e01c3fef1$173923e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <113.2f6f3c6c.2d727dff@aol.com> Subject: Re: I keep working and keep getting more answers Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:23:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA17856 Resent-Message-ID: <"42tq23.0.0O4.ZuYG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53302 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frank Znidarsic writes. Subject: I keep working and keep getting more answers > the latest on alpha and beta decay Frank, Congratulations. Your website is really beginning to shape up and resolve many loose ends, or perhaps for me personally it is just now that I am becoming aware of how far you have gotten with your ideas. If I have one suggestion it is this. If at all possible, find a detail-oriented tech writer who can fill in the blanks, de-personalize it, and make this material less dense for those of us who have difficulty following the details of your arguments without flipping back and forth to other more basic web pages for clarification. There is a lot of important insight here, but it seems to me that there are only a handful of physicists who will follow these arguments with ease (and most of them already have their won conflicting notions on these issues). I think you are assuming too much specialized knowledge to appeal to a wider audience, who would be receptive if they could grasp where you are going with them - especially Chapter. 4 which should be of interest to everyone on this forum, but IMHO needs to be much longer and more clarified - and hot-link to Chapter 10 and Chapter 5. Of course, I am aware that you probably have all of this on your "to-do" list, but that it takes more time and/or money than most of us have on hand. Hopefully, a 'patron' will come your way some time in the near future (don't we all wish this?). BTW considering that the end of Chapter 10 and Chapter 5 are converging on the same point, why not merge them and also take the final step of deriving the ZPE field energy from where you are (or did I miss that?) IOW you have derived the mass, size and capacitance, and we know from the capacitance parameters that time is inherent, therefore shouldn't an inverse 4th power of the age of the universe in seconds lead to an energy-density number for ZPE? If so, I wonder how that would compare to Wheeler's (infinite?) and others who have looked into this and find it to be less than infinite. Also, your ideas can also tie-in to the more recent cosmology of Arp. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 11:05:29 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07189; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:04:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:04:27 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [67.74.41.3] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Plans for a claimed low-cost, magnetic motor/generator requiring no input. Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:36:00 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2004 18:36:00.0541 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0E8F4D0:01C3FEF2] Resent-Message-ID: <"CjXDn1.0.8m1.sUZG01"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53304 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com There is no magical magnet name for this free energy device, and we will tell you up front that we are not the inventors of this device. This device has been known since the early 1930's by the US Navy, and many others around the world. It is kept secretly suppressed for obvious financial reasons, by higher powers within governments. The following is a brief summary of the magnet motor. The device is self rotating when hand brake is released, and works on the principle of magnetic attraction, and repulsion when rare earth magnets are placed in the correct geometrically formed fields. The part that many do not know is the correct geometric configuration of the device. This simple device consist of three dielectric plexiglass strips, which rare earth magnets are affixed to and placed around in a spiraling path, which create the stator of the device. The rotor magnets are connected in a special configuration on a separate piece of dielectric plexiglass, which is affixed to a shaft, and connected in the center by a free wheel bearing. A strip of aluminum is soldered to the bottom of the rotor shaft and connected to ground. A sheet of copper cut in the same geometric shape as the stator is glued in place under the stator of the device, and a diode is soldered to the copper for direction of current. A cardboard isolator is placed between the section of copper that overlaps aluminum connected to rotor shaft. Because of the high speed this device can develop a plastic hand screw, with rubber boot is used for braking and controlling speed. Unit can be assembled and running in less then 45 minutes. For answers to some frequently ask questions click FAQ on the menu. To learn more about parts and plans click Parts/Plans on menu. [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] Due to the overwhelming demand for the self running magnet motor, and unexpected delays in shipping from our magnet suppliers, we can not fulfill new orders until further notice. All previous orders have shipped. We are however offering the complete parts list, and easy to follow instruction booklet for building a working unit, the cost of the booklet is only $29.95 We do recommend Neo magnets, but the magnets needed may be substituted (for testing only) using Radio Shack magnets Cat.# 64-1883 or a 1/2" x 1/8" similar magnet. The price for these magnets vary worldwide but are available online from Radio Shack for a total cost of about $35.00 All additional parts needed are available at your local hardware store, for a cost of under $30.00. All orders for the booklet will ship within 48 hours of order. Each Plans/Parts booklet cost just $29.95 USD and includes cost of shipping. _________________________________________________________________ Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 11:05:33 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA08760; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:04:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:04:00 -0800 Message-ID: <004801c3fef3$05cc77e0$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002101c3fed6$27fdb260$0bc9b141@computer> Subject: Re: H-OH Gas Generator? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:37:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA08716 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q0vGC2.0.q82.WUZG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53303 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frederick Sparber writes, > Sparging ion-laden air (from an ion generator or van de graaff) through water charged with salt (NaCl) or baking soda (NaHCO3) should reveal the amount of H-OH gas generated. > A swamp cooler or room humidifier loaded with salt in the water basin, confined in a plastic "tent", should work until you set off a spark in it, and it explodes. :-). Fred, I love it. Self-powered air-conditioning for the desert Southwest !! So that is why you were buying that van de graaf... I suspect you have made some major land acquisitions in New Mexico and will soon be selling parcels (at the standard retail markup) along with free plans for keeping the house cool on those 120 degree summer days Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 11:22:30 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA21250; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:21:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:21:35 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Color on Mars Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:46:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <000d01c3fec7$6a5b2110$c141ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"v7hXw1.0.zB5._kZG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53305 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Mike, With all due respect, this problem is hardly insoluble as you imply. The printing industry deals with this issue every day. That the problem is subtle and complex is obvious to all who are actively following these discussions. On that we can agree. But throwing up your hands isn't going to solve the problem... First, let's talk about what it even means to talk about the "true" color of something. To me, that means looking at the thing under a standard light source, using your eye as a detector. If I had a Martian "blueberry" in my hand right now, and looked at it under this desk lamp, what would I see? This is the first problem to be overcome in color correcting the photos, as my understanding is that all these photos have been taken with incident light whose characteristics we don't know. Ideally, we'd like a known light source to illuminate the object being measured. We don't have that, but we do get some information from the spectrometer studies on what the natural Martian incident light is like. So let's qualify my ideal condition, and say "We want to know what the color looks like if we are standing on the surface looking around". If the incident light is blue or red, things will take on those tones. If there is more ultraviolet in the light, we may see fluorescence. But at least with this new definition, we can move forward with the data in hand. Second, we need to have all elements of the measurement chain be calibrated. I trust that NASA has done their end of the job, in that the Pan-cam is calibrated and the color wheel is a traceable standard. I've seen the former data, but I'm still having trouble locating the later. On our end, we need to calibrate our color monitors to a standard. A variety of tools exist to do this, designed for the graphic design/print industry. Currently that's a weak point for most of us, cheap uncalibrated monitors abound and it's always a surprise to people when you point out that New Mom's digital baby pictures look great on her screen but when you get them they look all green or red or whatever. Imagine what music would sound like if we all used different tunings on our instruments and tried to play the same piece of music! Yet that's what currently exists in the field. So we calibrate our equipment. With that done, we can close the loop. Like I said, industry deals with this problem every day, and sometimes even gets it right! (grin). I just called my landlord. He didn't have much else to add to what's above, other than to complain that monitors are a weak link in the chain. We both felt strongly that without a physical copy of the color wheel in our hands it would be difficult to close the loop. Again, if anyone knows the right people to ask at NASA, I'd appreciate it. I found a PDF file of the wheel, but if you've been following the discussion you probably already know that this doesn't solve the problem at all. Is the sense of color subjective? Yes, in the same way as the sense of tone is. Most people are not born with perfect pitch. But trying learning an instrument, and your ear will improve. And we somehow got instrument manufacturers to agree on a standard intonation for fretted instruments. K. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec@snip.net] Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 8:25 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Color on Mars Color is a very subjective matter. Human color perception is based on the relative response of the red, green, and blue recptors in the retina. The response-frequency charateristics of these recptors are broad and overlapping. Survival depends on correct identification of color at dawn, sunset, high noon and overcast. In a modern home and city we have no problem identifying 'black' and 'white' even though the incident illumiantion may vary widely. Cameras don't so accomodate, which is evident in any fistful of color prints taken under different conditions. Without a calibration reference such as a color chart on Mars within view of the cameras, trying to judge color correction based on what you see on a monitor is quite hopelss. Years ago Edwin Land cause a stir at optical society meetings by projecting two overlapping images through narrow band filters. Viewers perceived a whole spectrum of tints between the actual projected wavelengths, and if I recall, some tints outside that range. This had theorists scrambling to 'explain' this in terms of three-color perception theory. In principle, it doesn't matter if you use white, black, or neutral gray as a calibration reference, for each is supposedly comprised of equal contributions of R,G,and B. But trying to judge these on a color monitor whose phosphors have their own spectral characteristics, and eyeballs with their own color interpretation system, is at least an interesting adventure in pursuit of an ephemeral truth. Mike Carrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:44 PM Subject: Re: Color on Mars > > > Keith Nagel wrote: > > >If the black is absolutely black, then we can see > >pretty easily that the first image is too reddish > >brown. > > > > If you're dealing with RGB images, whether you maximize the luminance or > minimize it, you still know which filters to use; hence white and black > analysis are the same. > > I think. :-) > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 12:13:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA18580; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:12:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:12:02 -0800 Message-ID: <005d01c3ff00$3cec2e20$8837fea9@cpq> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Plans for a claimed low-cost, magnetic motor/generator requiring no input. Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:11:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA18467 Resent-Message-ID: <"VBCMa1.0.GY4.HUaG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53306 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mark, Your post to vortex seemed to be incomplete. Maybe it went out too soon. Were you intending to make a comment on this site: http://www.magnethealer.com/index.html Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 13:25:47 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA00346; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:22:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:22:54 -0800 Message-ID: <40425871.6070105@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:24:01 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Plans for a claimed low-cost, magnetic motor/generator requiring no input. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cMkkO1.0.L5.kWbG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53307 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mark Goldes wrote: > There is no magical magnet name for this free energy device, and we > will tell you up front that we are not the inventors of this device. If this is the HoJo motor described in the 1980 issue of Science and Mechanics, patent no. 4,151,431, I'll send anyone the plans for free. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 13:29:14 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA02842; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:27:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:27:36 -0800 Message-ID: <4042598A.6020202@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:28:42 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Color on Mars References: <40416E37.5070308@rtpatlanta.com> <000d01c3fec7$6a5b2110$c141ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <404206B3.6010302@rtpatlanta.com> <000c01c3feef$ccaf8680$c864a8c0@win98> In-Reply-To: <000c01c3feef$ccaf8680$c864a8c0@win98> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"03ruw.0.Ii.7bbG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53308 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com hamdix@iris.com.tr wrote: >>Yes, as someone else said, we'll just have to go there! >> >> > >This would be not enough because human eye has white balance too. > Well, I suppose we'd have to bring the rocks here, eh? I've been remodeling the house for the past two years and am finally near finishing. My wife and I were debating on what color to paint the master bath. She said I should pick the color. I have chosen a color which closely matches the Mars balls. The wife likes it! (I didn't tell where I got the inspiration . . . she already considers me a bit daft!) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 13:40:20 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA09011; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:36:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:36:35 -0800 Message-ID: <00b101c3ff03$a5aa6be0$0bc9b141@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <002101c3fed6$27fdb260$0bc9b141@computer> <004801c3fef3$05cc77e0$8837fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: H-OH Gas Generator? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:35:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940eb9e2f8cd95ab2fc6878fc23d72b00b3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"8cW5G.0.lC2.ZjbG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53309 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Jones Beene wrote, > Frederick Sparber writes, > > > > Sparging ion-laden air (from an ion generator or van de graaff) through water charged with salt (NaCl) or baking soda (NaHCO3) should reveal the amount of H-OH gas generated. > > > A swamp cooler or room humidifier loaded with salt in the water basin, confined in a plastic "tent", should work until you set off a spark in it, and it explodes. :-). > > > Fred, > > I love it. Self-powered air-conditioning for the desert Southwest !! So that is why you were buying that van de graaf... > > I suspect you have made some major land acquisitions in New Mexico and will soon be selling parcels (at the standard retail markup) along with free plans for keeping the house cool on those 120 degree summer days Right. :-) I have a large swamper on my roof (for summer cooling) and a room humdifier in the hallway. They both work on the same principle, except that I don't have my Honeywell "Environizer" ion generator/air purifier (~ $100.00 at radioshack) sitting at the air intake of the humidifier ( to which I have added salt as a bacteriacide/fungicide, and I don't know yet, how to measure the H-OH "combustible"off-gas yield http://phoenix.gov/WATER/evapcool.html This excercise smacks of the article that Knuke Huffman published in one of the first issues of Infinite Energy magazine, where he claimed a large increase in the performance of the diesel engines on a ship during rough weather at sea up near Alaska. No? Regards, Frederick > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 14:07:40 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA29803; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:05:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:05:17 -0800 Message-ID: <004d01c3ff10$196142f0$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <40416E37.5070308@rtpatlanta.com> <000d01c3fec7$6a5b2110$c141ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <404206B3.6010302@rtpatlanta.com> <000c01c3feef$ccaf8680$c864a8c0@win98> <4042598A.6020202@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: Color on Mars Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:04:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"1stmn2.0.VH7.S8cG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53310 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Here's the current problem as I see it. Here's a spectra-analysis of a rock which I composed: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pub_info_release/2004-02-02/Gusev_spectra-B009R1.jpg Here's my image: http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars2.htm But go back to the spectra-analysis. Notice that there are eleven datapoints taken across the spectrum for this image. Those datapoints came from these 13 images: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/spirit_p007.html The first datapoint coincides with the image using the L7 filter (blue @ 432 nm), the second is taken from the L6 filter (blue @ 482 nm), the third from the L5 filter (green @ 535 nm), the fourth from the L4 filter (red @ 601 nm), and then down into the lower and infra-red. However, the spectra analysis shows that the face on the rock reflects MORE light as the wavelength gets longer, up to the L3 filter at 673 nm, whereas the raw data clearly shows that the face on the rock gets brighter as the wavelength gets shorter. The reason the rock is blue is BECAUSE the images at the shorter wavelengths are obviously brighter in the images, and the image put into the Blue channel in the graphics software has a brighter face on it than the images put into the green and red channels -- but this contradicts the specta-analysis. So what's happening? This tells me that we're really not seeing the raw data, but rather data which has already had some sort of basic processing, which raised the brightness of the images filtered through the shorter wavelengths. If this is the case, then this also explains some of the other anomalies I'm seeing with the raw images, like the cases where two sets of images, taken with the same filters, of the same object, are so different, as I've outlined on this webpage: http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars4.htm We now have an explanation for this inconsistency. The first image was put through the process which lightened the images, and the second image was not. Hence we see blue in the first image, and the second image looks much more like the NASA prints, and much more like the red Mars we've come to expect from the NASA images. I'm hoping that the data on the JPL website isn't permanently damaged, but can be corrected to look like the original data should look, as reported in the spectra-analysis. I believe this IS the problem, but to correct it, I need to find graphic processing software which can show me the numerical data, and not just provide a 'touch-and-feel' interface. One more thing. Using the spectra-analysis, I did try to correct my original image using my eye, and produced this image: http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars6.htm which starts to look a lot like those images doctored by NASA. However, without being able to manipulate the raw data in the images, using the numbers, there's no way to make this right. The question is, where is the real raw data? Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 15:15:48 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA04765; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:10:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:10:40 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [67.74.41.3] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Plans for a claimed low-cost, magnetic motor Yup! Forgot to insert the URL Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:09:58 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2004 23:09:59.0224 (UTC) FILETIME=[2720EB80:01C3FF19] Resent-Message-ID: <"UBOab2.0.PA1.m5dG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53311 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: Plans for a claimed low-cost, magnetic motor/generator >requiring no input. >Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:11:37 -0800 > >Mark, > >Your post to vortex seemed to be incomplete. Maybe it went out too soon. > >Were you intending to make a comment on this site: >http://www.magnethealer.com/index.html > >Jones > _________________________________________________________________ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 15:18:25 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA08429; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:17:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:17:20 -0800 Message-ID: <00e701c3ff11$b8905720$0bc9b141@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Psychrometric Calculator Applet Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:16:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940feade227fc5a2fee71730d4aeb1cc254350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"2nMJS3.0.a32.0CdG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53312 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Handy. http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 15:36:31 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA19009; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:35:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:35:53 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <97.44b1c169.2d73d135@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:35:17 EST Subject: Re: I keep working and keep getting more answers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_97.44b1c169.2d73d135_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 Resent-Message-ID: <"aGbyV3.0.ze4.PTdG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53313 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com --part1_97.44b1c169.2d73d135_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/29/04 1:24:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > Jones Beene > > Thank you Jones. I am doing what I can. As far as it goes none of us, including me, are going to get anywhere until we bring a working zero point technology to the market. I am unable to do that yet. So I am afraid that no matter how may mathematical proofs I provided my efforts will be in vain. Frank Znidarsic --part1_97.44b1c169.2d73d135_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/29/04 1:24:08=20= PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:


Jones Beene



Thank you Jones.  I am doing what I can.  As far as it goes none o= f us, including me, are going to get anywhere until we bring a working zero=20= point technology to the market.  I am unable to do that yet. So I am af= raid that no matter how may mathematical proofs I provided my efforts will b= e in vain.

Frank Znidarsic --part1_97.44b1c169.2d73d135_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 16:44:43 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA24379; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:43:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:43:34 -0800 Message-ID: <00f901c3ff15$66267ba0$0bc9b141@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Airfoil design Applet Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:43:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ddf483f1e5ada97879d96538c834a344350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Resent-Message-ID: <"3P5vu.0.ly5.cadG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53314 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Why NASA isn't sending the Air Force's F16s to fight Martians on their turf. :-) http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 18:20:16 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA28591; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:19:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:19:11 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Plans for a claimed low-cost, magnetic motor/generator requiring no input. Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:17:19 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <40425871.6070105@rtpatlanta.com> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"oYekP3.0.g-6.VsfG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53315 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Looks like someone decided to build a scam based on the HoJo wheel, as you say. Let us recap: A website exclusively dedicated to selling "parts and plans" >- oops - parts are no_longer_available, just plans. -< Not even hint of even a "teaser" foto to illustrate the unit, which indicates it is either immediately recognizable (HoJo) or merely vaporware. They did not even construct a unit for themselves for display or testing or whatever, otherwise there would be a least a few grainy 'shot-from-bad-angle' pix. Contacts? what contacts? no names, no history The site's only interaction is link out to a site to extract money from your credit card. This sounds more like a level -2 on the scam scale. They obviously didn't study "the ScamMaster" very long. > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont@rtpatlanta.com] > Sent: Monday, 2004 March 01 04:24 > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Plans for a claimed low-cost, magnetic motor/generator > requiring no input. > > > > > Mark Goldes wrote: > > > There is no magical magnet name for this free energy device, and we > > will tell you up front that we are not the inventors of this device. > > > If this is the HoJo motor described in the 1980 issue of Science and > Mechanics, patent no. 4,151,431, I'll send anyone the plans for free. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 19:58:55 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA20874; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:57:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:57:34 -0800 From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: Color on Mars Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:55:37 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <004d01c3ff10$196142f0$6401a8c0@Craig> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lester.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com Resent-Message-ID: <"NBMXk2.0.665.kIhG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com As I said from the start - there is no data, and probably never will be released raw. > -----Original Message----- > From: SnowDog [mailto:SnowDog@GoldDirectory.com] > Sent: Monday, 2004 March 01 05:05 >...X...< > which starts to look a lot like those images doctored by NASA. However, > without being able to manipulate the raw data in the images, using the > numbers, there's no way to make this right. The question is, where is the > real raw data? > > Craig Haynie > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Feb 29 21:02:13 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA23093; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:58:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:58:01 -0800 Message-ID: <006d01c3ff49$c3705400$6401a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: Subject: No Blue on Mars Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:57:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <"jN2Rt3.0.ne5.PBiG01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/53317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I'm at a stopping point. Thanks for everyone's help. Using the spectra-analysis provided by JPL, I'm able to recreate the images that they create. http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars6.htm but they say they created the spectra-analysis from the images from the PanCam filtered images. However, the images on the JPL website are inconsistent and altered. The color wheel images are always correct, and never need altering, while other pictures have both altered, and unaltered sets of images. More than likely, the original data downloaded from the rovers is NOT in JPG format. In all previous missions, they've been in NASA's proprietary IMQ format, for which conversion programs have been written to convert them to JPeG. However, these IMQ images are nowhere to be found -- at least not yet, to the best of my ability to find them. So, without either the raw images, or the spectra-analysis for a particular image, I am not able to accurately produce these color images. I'll keep looking, and hopefully, will find out how to get these images soon. Craig Haynie (Houston)