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Subject: D. Nagel Cold Fusion talk at NRL on Anniversary #15
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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ELECTRONICS SCIENCE & TECNOLOGY DIVISION
SEMINAR
 
Speaker: David J. Nagel
Affiliation: The George  Washington University
                   Washington, DC  20052
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004
Time: 1:30 PM
Place: Bldg. 208, Room 260A
Title: COLD FUSION: PROBLEMS, PROGRESS AND PROSPECTS
 
Abstract

The problems attending cold fusion can be classified as systemic and
technical. Breakdowns in communication between those involved in cold fusion
research and both the scientific community and the public, and also the
difficulty in getting funding for cold fusion research, are systemic
problems.  The technical problems associated with cold fusion have included
inadequate instrumentation, incomplete materials analysis, complex protocols
and, most critically, early lack of reproducibility. Despite these problems,
there has been major experimental progress in the past fifteen years. Dozens
of "positive" experiments have been run by competent and credentialed
investigators, who used adequate instrumentation, which was properly
calibrated before, during and after the experiments.  Reproducibility has
improved significantly. The 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion was
held in Cambridge MA in August of 2003.  An overview of the conference will
be presented to illustrate the continual progress in the field.  Several
prospects for cold fusion are in the offing.  A two-step plan to move toward
returning cold fusion to the status of an ordinary field of scientific
inquiry has been developed. The plan includes, first, a comprehensive review
of the literature and, second,  a national study to determine the status of
the field and to recommend what ought to be done. It is already clear that a
program on cold fusion should include development of better instrumentation
and materials, an expanded theoretical effort and two types of experiments,
namely replications of already reported successful experiments and the
pursuit of the many ideas for new experiments.  The bottom line: despite
many problems, nuclear reactions can occur at low energies, so cold fusion
is real, and what to do about it seems clear.
 
David J. Nagel received a B.S. degree (1960) in Engineering Science from the
University of Notre Dame and graduate degrees (M.S. in Physics, 1969 and
Ph.D. in Engineering Materials, 1977) from the University  of Maryland.  He
joined the civilian staff of the Naval Research Laboratory in 1964, where he
held positions as a Research Physicist, Section Head, Branch Head and,
finally, Superintendent of the Condensed Matter and Radiation Sciences
Division.  In this last position, Nagel was a member of the Senior Executive
Service, and managed the experimental and theoretical research and
development efforts of 150 government, contractor and other personnel. He
has written or co-authored over 150 technical articles, reports, book
chapters and encyclopedia articles.  Nagel spent 30 years on active and
reserve duty for the Navy and retired as a Captain in 1990.  He became a
Research Professor in the School  of Engineering and Applied Science of The
George Washington University in 1998.  His current interests include
applications of MEMS and nano-technologies, as well as low energy nuclear
reactions.

 
Host: G.M. Borsuk, 767-3525
 
 
Tina M. Chops

Code 1000A

Naval Research Laboratory

Voice: 202-767-3404

FAX:   202-404-7419

 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 06:33:31 2004
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While some here have been speculating about a coverup since NASA hasn't 
been too forthcoming with the tantalizing data, this article implies 
that some major announcements may be coming this week:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/opportunity_evidence_040229.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 09:42:59 2004
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Ah...what a relief
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:40:51 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C3FF71.49211CC0
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	charset="Windows-1252"
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For the amusement of any skeptics lurking out there... those who =
regularly opine that alternative-energy is "full of you-know-what"... =
this news item is available to illuminate... so to speak, which is not =
the same as advising them to "stick it where the sun don't shine," but =
close.

http://www.nature.com/nsu/040223/040223-10.html

I wonder if the microbes that power the sludge battery can be hybridized =
to employ CF techniques, assuming they don't already?=20

Don't laugh. If cold fusion is available at modest voltages and =
temperature, then it has probably already evolved as part of life =
somewhere. After all, we are finding life in the most inhospitable of =
places - like deep within Antarctic ice and deep within the earth, in =
hydrothermal vents and probably on Mars... therefore it's possible that =
to the extent that LENR involves in any way the ability to increase the =
probability of QM tunneling, which was suggested as soon as P&F =
announced their results, then it is very likely to be a "natural" =
process... maybe even primordial?

Jones

BTW when the authors say,  "We believe we can increase power generation =
to levels of about 1000 mW per square meter [surface area]" remember =
that a gram of carbon C-60 (fullerene) has as much as 1000 square meters =
of surface area and can be easily made conductive.

That's a kilowatt of potential power per gram of electrode, folks, even =
without the benefit of hybridiztion.... therefore, to all the LENR =
experimenters out there, if you ever run out of good ideas, forget the =
old electrolysis cell, order some fullerenes, and get those brains (and =
bowels) cranking...


------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C3FF71.49211CC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>For the amusement of any skeptics lurking out there... =
those&nbsp;who=20
regularly opine that alternative-energy is "full of you-know-what"... =
this news=20
item is available to illuminate... so to speak, which is not the same as =

advising them to "stick it&nbsp;where the sun don't shine," but =
close.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.nature.com/nsu/040223/040223-10.html">http://www.natur=
e.com/nsu/040223/040223-10.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I wonder if the microbes that power the sludge battery can be =
hybridized to=20
employ CF techniques, assuming they don't already? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Don't laugh. If cold fusion is available at modest voltages and=20
temperature, then it has probably already evolved as part of life =
somewhere.=20
After all, we are finding life in the most inhospitable of places - like =
deep=20
within Antarctic ice and deep within the earth, in hydrothermal vents =
and=20
probably on Mars... therefore it's possible that to the extent that=20
LENR&nbsp;involves in any way the ability to increase the probability of =
QM=20
tunneling, which was suggested as soon as P&amp;F announced their =
results, then=20
it is very likely to be a&nbsp;"natural" process... maybe even =
primordial?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW when the authors say,  "We believe we can increase power =
generation to=20
levels of about 1000 mW per square meter [surface area]" remember that a =
gram of=20
carbon C-60 (fullerene) has as much as 1000 square meters of surface =
area and=20
can be easily made conductive.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>That's a kilowatt of potential power per gram of electrode, folks, =
even=20
without the benefit of hybridiztion.... therefore, to all the LENR =
experimenters=20
out there, if you ever run out of good ideas,&nbsp;forget the old =
electrolysis=20
cell, order some fullerenes,&nbsp;and get those brains (and bowels)=20
cranking...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C3FF71.49211CC0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 10:14:25 2004
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Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:11:15 -0800 (PST)
From: alexander hollins <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
Subject: dry ice/alchohol liquid nitrogen
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well, i decided to have fun, and try out the rubbing
alchohol dry ice idea that bill beaty has up on
amasci, and had some interesting results. i used
simple 70 percent isopropal from the store.  I figured
that i could precipitate ice crystals out, thus
increasing the [alchohol]. The first run, i poured the
alchohol directly from the bottle at room temperature
over the dry ice in a plastic container.  (using used
and well cleaned gatorade bottles, the new ones with
the multilayer plastic, better insulation.)  first
observations are that there was less bubbling than
with straight water, and almost no fog in the bubbles.
 pretty much expected.  after letting aprox 1 pound of
ice melt into 2 cups of alchohol, i ended up with an
ice cold solution that had turned cloudy with small
particulates.  i assumed that these were ice crystals,
and attempted to filter the liquid.  i had a fine
cloth already in the freezer for just such a task if
needed (dont have any good filtering equipment.) and
ran the liquid through the cloth.  no change, so
obviously the crystals were too small.  i had a
thought that if perhaps the whole of the alchohol were
already ice cold, the water would freeze in larger
amounts, making it removable.  taking a new sample of
alchohol, i set it in my freezer for 4 hours.  i then
began putting small chunks of dry ice in.  lo and
behold, it appeared that ice began forming on the dry
ice much as it does in pure water.  upon periodically
removing the dry ice to clean it, though, i notice it
was NOT ice, but a very cold gel of some kind. 
ocasionaly clear, but mostly cloudy at first.  setting
this gel in a seperate container to melt, after
melting it appeared to be the same con of alchohol and
water as the original.  i did not have a hydrometer to
verify, i do now, and will repeat when i get a chance.
 after a while, i ended up with the whole bottle
gelling up around the dry ice, attempts to squeeze
seperate it failed.  the gel WAS cold though.  filling
a test tube (1/2 inch) with water, and inserting it
into the gel (which was dense enough to support it)
the sample was rimmed with ice on the inside to about
half of its thickness in one minute, and frozen solid
in five.  im not sure if the gelling up is sue to the
water content, or perhaps due to the c02 that was
dissolved into the solution.  also, after the entire
bottle was gelled, it was almost uniformly clear,
opposite of the first portions that gelled.

followups that i have planned is cooling the alchohol
indirectly, to prevent co2 from getting in in as high
a concentration, and trying to get my hands on a
higher concentration alchohol. 

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 10:44:20 2004
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alexander hollins wrote:

>followups that i have planned is cooling the alchohol
>indirectly, to prevent co2 from getting in in as high
>a concentration, and trying to get my hands on a
>higher concentration alchohol. 
>

Everclear or Golden Grain from your local spirit dealer is 95% ethanol. 

And you can drink to your successes or failures!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 11:26:44 2004
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But Terry, we knew about this _days_ ago...

"I also asked if there was any compelling spectroscopy from the rovers and
he
said that they're finding basalt in the surrounding environment, but have
only starting the up-close work now, with Opportunity on El Capitan. They
plan on having a press conference on Tuesday, and he said, "Don't miss it!".
	-snowdog-

BTW a new study proves H2O2 present on mars. I'll bet the upcoming press
conference
will be about the discovery of martian free energy Sparberinos!

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:32 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: NASA's Silence


While some here have been speculating about a coverup since NASA hasn't
been too forthcoming with the tantalizing data, this article implies
that some major announcements may be coming this week:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/opportunity_evidence_040229.html


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 11:54:45 2004
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I know I promised,
 but 1M131296201EFF0500P2933M2M1.jpg
 has crystals,
 cubic facets if my eyes aren't shot.

 Meaning salt, grown by dessication? in all probablility.
 Out of solution, not necessarily not exclusively
 but most likely some solution of water-borne salts.
 Look carfully and you will see the growth steps.

 Green/blue features probably have some amounts of
 ferrous and cupric chlorides, both hydrous mineral.

And by the way Horace,
 the official version is spherules form like raindrops
 growing out of the soil,
 your version is they grow like grapes.

Your version wins, because the only way their growth
 remains smoothly spherical is by having a skin.
 If they were sublimated/evaporated,
 they would have crystal-facet step features, not spherical.
Water would have no way to sublimate/evaorate
 and retain sherical shape by natural process growing from the inside.
And they certinly wouldn't slump, as some appear to have done.

I wanted to highlight the (?five-sided?) groove-facets I see in those
 things, but I simply have no time to do that.


It's water borne, and its got life.


Cheers
Back to my Tesla coil...
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com]
> Sent: Monday, 2004 March 01 21:32
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: NASA's Silence
> 
> 
> While some here have been speculating about a coverup since NASA hasn't 
> been too forthcoming with the tantalizing data, this article implies 
> that some major announcements may be coming this week:
> 
> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/opportunity_evidence_040229.html
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 12:28:59 2004
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Subject: Message sent to Mark Goldes about magic magnet motor
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I sent the attached message to Mark Goldes about the claim he made here. 
However, I missed the web site address he is talking about. I still can't 
find it in the message stream. Maybe he is describing someone else's web 
site, not his own, and maybe he cannot address my questions.

I apologize to Mark if he means someone else is selling this. Also, I would 
like to know who it is.

If this is Mark, and the gadget works as advertised, he could to sell ten 
thousand of them in no time, at a huge profit. I thought he is in the 
magnet business, so I cannot understand why he wouldn't want to sell them.

I agree with Explorecraft that this has the hallmarks of a scam. Even 
though I have not seen the photos he refers to, I already get that 
impression. If this is an honest, legitimate claim, the authors should make 
haste to correct this impression.

Terry Blanton said this gadget was described in 1980. Does anyone know if 
there reports that it worked? Goldes said that he (or whoever it is) do not 
claim they invented it, and it has been around since the 1930s, so the 
authors are not trying to get away with anything on that score.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mark,

Have you actually seen and operated one of these things? Will you offer a 
money back guarantee that it works? How long did it spin in the longest 
test you tried?

I hope you realize this is a very fishy claim you are making. Why on earth 
would you not be willing to assemble and sell more of these things?!? Even 
if you have no patent for the device, you could easily make millions of 
dollars selling them. People make money selling popcorn, which was not 
invented lately. You could make tens of millions improving the gadgets.

I would happy to pay $2,000 for an assembled, tested gadget that you 
certify will work. You send me the gadget first. I will pay if it works, or 
return it if it does not.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 12:38:29 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: NASA's Silence
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At 9:31 AM 3/1/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>While some here have been speculating about a coverup since NASA hasn't
>been too forthcoming with the tantalizing data, this article implies
>that some major announcements may be coming this week:
>
>http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/opportunity_evidence_040229.html


Good grief!  Could it be that those who see the possibility of flowing
water, sublimating ice, desert varnish and lichen-like stuff in the rover
photos will be annexed into the mainstream from the lunatic fringe?   8^)
Only time will tell.

BTW, I have a little bit of a personal relation to some of Gilbert Levine's
work, who's Viking Lander background is discussed at the above URL and
associated links.  Of course he doesn't know me but I was an investor in
his company, and that had a profound effect on me.  His company (now
Spherix) was then called Biospherics (stock symbol BSPR).  I sold my house
and put the proceeds into BSPR because I thought it had a great chance to
take off.  Even as a kid, when I read about left handed molecules, I could
see the tremendous financial potential for foodstuf that had no calories,
that could not be digested.  So, when I read that Levine had not only
synthesized left handed sugar but had a process to mass produce it, and was
awaiting FDA approval, I put every spare dollar I could muster into his
stock (this was back in the early 80's).  I think he called the sugar by
the name l-sugar.  Unfortunately, FDA approval was late in coming and in
the meantime other artificial sweeteners (e.g. aspartane/neutrasweet) were
FDA approved and then selected by the beverage industry.  This dropped the
potential market for hs product and BSPR stock fell.  I held on about two
years when a recovery occurred, and sold off my stock and bought a house.
I've been out of the stock market and into real estate ever since that
timeframe, and without regrets about the move.  I missed the biggest bull
market in history, but also missed some big falls.  When I was younger I
would have enjoyed the excitement, but now I appreciate realibility.

L-sugar was (is) in all ways exactly like sugar.  It bakes, carmelizes,
makes syrup, candies, jellies and frostings, and tastes just like the
regular stuff, though it has zero calories.  The only known down side for
some individuals was flatulance!  8^)  If you are as overweight as I, that
seems a small price to pay for a little sugar!    Might not be so great in
a work environment though.  8^)

I read at one point where the l-sugar production was split off into another
company, but do not know if, when or to whom it was sold, or what its name
is currently. I think at the same time the name Biospherics was changed to
Spherix, and the BSPR symbol went away, but am not sure.

I will be very happy to see Levine's work and conclusions proven valid at
long last.  It is so disgusting when scientists dismiss good working
hypotheses without solid contradictory evidence.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Subject: NASA release
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Hi All -=20

The SPACE.com story was annoying because NASA scientists asked us all to hol=
d=20
back until they had their data nailed down.  Anyway, the flood gates (pun=20
intended) will open tomorrow.

Erik Baard


THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM NASA HEADQUARTERS, IN WASHINGTON,=20
DC, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.=A0 (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY=20
ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)=A0 Steve Maran,=20
American Astronomical Society

Donald Savage=20
Headquarters, Washington=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 March 1, 200=
4
(Phone: 202/358-1547)

Guy Webster
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
(Phone: 818/354-5011)

NOTE TO EDITORS: N04-038

NASA HEADQUARTERS MARS-ROVER OPPORTUNITY PRESS BRIEFING MARCH 2

=A0 =A0=A0 Significant findings from NASA's Mars Exploration Rover=20
Opportunity, now exploring Meridiani Planum on Mars, will be=20
announced at a press briefing at 2 p.m. EST, Tuesday, March 2,=20
2004, at NASA Headquarters, Washington.

The briefing will originate from the James E. Webb Auditorium,=20
300 E St., S.W., Washington, and will be carried live on NASA=20
TV with two-way question-and-answer capability for reporters=20
covering the event from participating NASA centers.

Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator, Office of Space Science=20
at NASA Headquarters, will make opening remarks. The panelists=20
include:

--Professor Steve Squyres, Mars Exploration Rover (MER)=20
Principal Investigator, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.
--Professor John Grotzinger, MER science team geologist,=20
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass.
--Dr. Benton C. Clark III, MER science team member and Chief=20
Scientist of Space Exploration, Lockheed Martin Space Systems=20
Astronautics Operations, Denver
--Dr. Joy Crisp, MER Project Scientist, NASA's Jet Propulsion=20
Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
--Dr. Jim Garvin, Lead Scientist for Mars and the Moon, NASA=20
Headquarters

NASA Television is available on AMC-9, transponder 9C, C-Band,=20
located at 85 degrees west longitude. The frequency is 3880.0=20
MHz. Polarization is vertical, and audio is monaural at 6.80=20
MHz. Audio of the broadcast will be available on voice circuit=20
at the Kennedy Space Center on 321/867-1220.

For a live webcast of the briefing and information about NASA=20
TV on the Internet, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/ntv



--part1_38.42da1547.2d74f9c2_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Hi All - <BR>
<BR>
The SPACE.com story was annoying because NASA scientists asked us all to hol=
d back until they had their data nailed down.&nbsp; Anyway, the flood gates=20=
(pun intended) will open tomorrow.<BR>
<BR>
Erik Baard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM NASA HEADQUARTERS, IN WASHINGTON, <B=
R>
DC, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.=A0 (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY <BR=
>
ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)=A0 Steve Maran, <BR>
American Astronomical Society<BR>
<BR>
Donald Savage <BR>
Headquarters, Washington=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 March 1, 200=
4<BR>
(Phone: 202/358-1547)<BR>
<BR>
Guy Webster<BR>
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.<BR>
(Phone: 818/354-5011)<BR>
<BR>
NOTE TO EDITORS: N04-038<BR>
<BR>
NASA HEADQUARTERS MARS-ROVER OPPORTUNITY PRESS BRIEFING MARCH 2<BR>
<BR>
=A0 =A0=A0 Significant findings from NASA's Mars Exploration Rover <BR>
Opportunity, now exploring Meridiani Planum on Mars, will be <BR>
announced at a press briefing at 2 p.m. EST, Tuesday, March 2, <BR>
2004, at NASA Headquarters, Washington.<BR>
<BR>
The briefing will originate from the James E. Webb Auditorium, <BR>
300 E St., S.W., Washington, and will be carried live on NASA <BR>
TV with two-way question-and-answer capability for reporters <BR>
covering the event from participating NASA centers.<BR>
<BR>
Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator, Office of Space Science <BR>
at NASA Headquarters, will make opening remarks. The panelists <BR>
include:<BR>
<BR>
--Professor Steve Squyres, Mars Exploration Rover (MER) <BR>
Principal Investigator, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.<BR>
--Professor John Grotzinger, MER science team geologist, <BR>
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass.<BR>
--Dr. Benton C. Clark III, MER science team member and Chief <BR>
Scientist of Space Exploration, Lockheed Martin Space Systems <BR>
Astronautics Operations, Denver<BR>
--Dr. Joy Crisp, MER Project Scientist, NASA's Jet Propulsion <BR>
Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.<BR>
--Dr. Jim Garvin, Lead Scientist for Mars and the Moon, NASA <BR>
Headquarters<BR>
<BR>
NASA Television is available on AMC-9, transponder 9C, C-Band, <BR>
located at 85 degrees west longitude. The frequency is 3880.0 <BR>
MHz. Polarization is vertical, and audio is monaural at 6.80 <BR>
MHz. Audio of the broadcast will be available on voice circuit <BR>
at the Kennedy Space Center on 321/867-1220.<BR>
<BR>
For a live webcast of the briefing and information about NASA <BR>
TV on the Internet, visit:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.nasa.gov/ntv<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_38.42da1547.2d74f9c2_boundary--

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Subject: NASA release
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Hi All -=20

The SPACE.com story was annoying because NASA scientists asked us all to hol=
d=20
back until they had their data nailed down.  Anyway, the flood gates (pun=20
intended) will open tomorrow.

Erik Baard


THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM NASA HEADQUARTERS, IN WASHINGTON,=20
DC, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.=A0 (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY=20
ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)=A0 Steve Maran,=20
American Astronomical Society

Donald Savage=20
Headquarters, Washington=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 March 1, 200=
4
(Phone: 202/358-1547)

Guy Webster
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
(Phone: 818/354-5011)

NOTE TO EDITORS: N04-038

NASA HEADQUARTERS MARS-ROVER OPPORTUNITY PRESS BRIEFING MARCH 2

=A0 =A0=A0 Significant findings from NASA's Mars Exploration Rover=20
Opportunity, now exploring Meridiani Planum on Mars, will be=20
announced at a press briefing at 2 p.m. EST, Tuesday, March 2,=20
2004, at NASA Headquarters, Washington.

The briefing will originate from the James E. Webb Auditorium,=20
300 E St., S.W., Washington, and will be carried live on NASA=20
TV with two-way question-and-answer capability for reporters=20
covering the event from participating NASA centers.

Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator, Office of Space Science=20
at NASA Headquarters, will make opening remarks. The panelists=20
include:

--Professor Steve Squyres, Mars Exploration Rover (MER)=20
Principal Investigator, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.
--Professor John Grotzinger, MER science team geologist,=20
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass.
--Dr. Benton C. Clark III, MER science team member and Chief=20
Scientist of Space Exploration, Lockheed Martin Space Systems=20
Astronautics Operations, Denver
--Dr. Joy Crisp, MER Project Scientist, NASA's Jet Propulsion=20
Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
--Dr. Jim Garvin, Lead Scientist for Mars and the Moon, NASA=20
Headquarters

NASA Television is available on AMC-9, transponder 9C, C-Band,=20
located at 85 degrees west longitude. The frequency is 3880.0=20
MHz. Polarization is vertical, and audio is monaural at 6.80=20
MHz. Audio of the broadcast will be available on voice circuit=20
at the Kennedy Space Center on 321/867-1220.

For a live webcast of the briefing and information about NASA=20
TV on the Internet, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/ntv



--part1_155.2eb4018c.2d74fa13_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Hi All - <BR>
<BR>
The SPACE.com story was annoying because NASA scientists asked us all to hol=
d back until they had their data nailed down.&nbsp; Anyway, the flood gates=20=
(pun intended) will open tomorrow.<BR>
<BR>
Erik Baard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM NASA HEADQUARTERS, IN WASHINGTON, <B=
R>
DC, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.=A0 (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY <BR=
>
ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)=A0 Steve Maran, <BR>
American Astronomical Society<BR>
<BR>
Donald Savage <BR>
Headquarters, Washington=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 March 1, 200=
4<BR>
(Phone: 202/358-1547)<BR>
<BR>
Guy Webster<BR>
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.<BR>
(Phone: 818/354-5011)<BR>
<BR>
NOTE TO EDITORS: N04-038<BR>
<BR>
NASA HEADQUARTERS MARS-ROVER OPPORTUNITY PRESS BRIEFING MARCH 2<BR>
<BR>
=A0 =A0=A0 Significant findings from NASA's Mars Exploration Rover <BR>
Opportunity, now exploring Meridiani Planum on Mars, will be <BR>
announced at a press briefing at 2 p.m. EST, Tuesday, March 2, <BR>
2004, at NASA Headquarters, Washington.<BR>
<BR>
The briefing will originate from the James E. Webb Auditorium, <BR>
300 E St., S.W., Washington, and will be carried live on NASA <BR>
TV with two-way question-and-answer capability for reporters <BR>
covering the event from participating NASA centers.<BR>
<BR>
Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator, Office of Space Science <BR>
at NASA Headquarters, will make opening remarks. The panelists <BR>
include:<BR>
<BR>
--Professor Steve Squyres, Mars Exploration Rover (MER) <BR>
Principal Investigator, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.<BR>
--Professor John Grotzinger, MER science team geologist, <BR>
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass.<BR>
--Dr. Benton C. Clark III, MER science team member and Chief <BR>
Scientist of Space Exploration, Lockheed Martin Space Systems <BR>
Astronautics Operations, Denver<BR>
--Dr. Joy Crisp, MER Project Scientist, NASA's Jet Propulsion <BR>
Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.<BR>
--Dr. Jim Garvin, Lead Scientist for Mars and the Moon, NASA <BR>
Headquarters<BR>
<BR>
NASA Television is available on AMC-9, transponder 9C, C-Band, <BR>
located at 85 degrees west longitude. The frequency is 3880.0 <BR>
MHz. Polarization is vertical, and audio is monaural at 6.80 <BR>
MHz. Audio of the broadcast will be available on voice circuit <BR>
at the Kennedy Space Center on 321/867-1220.<BR>
<BR>
For a live webcast of the briefing and information about NASA <BR>
TV on the Internet, visit:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.nasa.gov/ntv<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_155.2eb4018c.2d74fa13_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 12:52:30 2004
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Jed,

Jones figured out the URL yesterday.  I accidently had omitted it from my 
earlier post.  I confirmed he was correct last evening.

One of our engineers had ordered the booklet and we will see what come of 
it.  This might well be a scam.

If it should happen to be real, our firm would be delighted, but we are a 
licensing firm and not in the magnet business.  We will leave sales to 
others.

We do hope to develop toys of this general nature that we will license in 
the future.

Our business is the development and licensing of self-powered 
generators(tm).  We hope to have practical multi-kilowatt magnetic 
generators under license by the end of the year.   We are not seeking 
publicity about our work, but plan to leave that to licensees.

We also are developing Ultraconductors(tm) through a subsidiary.  These are 
a practical equivalent of ambient temperature superconductors.  see 
www.ultraconductors.com for more information.

Mark

Mark Goldes
Chairman & CEO
Magnetic Power Inc.
Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.




>From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: Message sent to Mark Goldes about magic magnet motor
>Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:23:22 -0500
>
>I sent the attached message to Mark Goldes about the claim he made here. 
>However, I missed the web site address he is talking about. I still can't 
>find it in the message stream. Maybe he is describing someone else's web 
>site, not his own, and maybe he cannot address my questions.
>
>I apologize to Mark if he means someone else is selling this. Also, I would 
>like to know who it is.
>
>If this is Mark, and the gadget works as advertised, he could to sell ten 
>thousand of them in no time, at a huge profit. I thought he is in the 
>magnet business, so I cannot understand why he wouldn't want to sell them.
>
>I agree with Explorecraft that this has the hallmarks of a scam. Even 
>though I have not seen the photos he refers to, I already get that 
>impression. If this is an honest, legitimate claim, the authors should make 
>haste to correct this impression.
>
>Terry Blanton said this gadget was described in 1980. Does anyone know if 
>there reports that it worked? Goldes said that he (or whoever it is) do not 
>claim they invented it, and it has been around since the 1930s, so the 
>authors are not trying to get away with anything on that score.
>
>- Jed
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Mark,
>
>Have you actually seen and operated one of these things? Will you offer a 
>money back guarantee that it works? How long did it spin in the longest 
>test you tried?
>
>I hope you realize this is a very fishy claim you are making. Why on earth 
>would you not be willing to assemble and sell more of these things?!? Even 
>if you have no patent for the device, you could easily make millions of 
>dollars selling them. People make money selling popcorn, which was not 
>invented lately. You could make tens of millions improving the gadgets.
>
>I would happy to pay $2,000 for an assembled, tested gadget that you 
>certify will work. You send me the gadget first. I will pay if it works, or 
>return it if it does not.
>
>- Jed
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 12:54:07 2004
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:50:14 EST
Subject: NASA release
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--part1_1ee.1a57eef9.2d74fc06_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All -=20

The SPACE.com story was annoying because NASA scientists asked us all to hol=
d=20
back until they had their data nailed down.  Anyway, the flood gates (pun=20
intended) will open tomorrow.

Erik Baard


THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM NASA HEADQUARTERS, IN WASHINGTON,=20
DC, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.=A0 (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY=20
ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)=A0 Steve Maran,=20
American Astronomical Society

Donald Savage=20
Headquarters, Washington=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 March 1, 200=
4
(Phone: 202/358-1547)

Guy Webster
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
(Phone: 818/354-5011)

NOTE TO EDITORS: N04-038

NASA HEADQUARTERS MARS-ROVER OPPORTUNITY PRESS BRIEFING MARCH 2

=A0 =A0=A0 Significant findings from NASA's Mars Exploration Rover=20
Opportunity, now exploring Meridiani Planum on Mars, will be=20
announced at a press briefing at 2 p.m. EST, Tuesday, March 2,=20
2004, at NASA Headquarters, Washington.

The briefing will originate from the James E. Webb Auditorium,=20
300 E St., S.W., Washington, and will be carried live on NASA=20
TV with two-way question-and-answer capability for reporters=20
covering the event from participating NASA centers.

Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator, Office of Space Science=20
at NASA Headquarters, will make opening remarks. The panelists=20
include:

--Professor Steve Squyres, Mars Exploration Rover (MER)=20
Principal Investigator, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.
--Professor John Grotzinger, MER science team geologist,=20
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass.
--Dr. Benton C. Clark III, MER science team member and Chief=20
Scientist of Space Exploration, Lockheed Martin Space Systems=20
Astronautics Operations, Denver
--Dr. Joy Crisp, MER Project Scientist, NASA's Jet Propulsion=20
Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
--Dr. Jim Garvin, Lead Scientist for Mars and the Moon, NASA=20
Headquarters

NASA Television is available on AMC-9, transponder 9C, C-Band,=20
located at 85 degrees west longitude. The frequency is 3880.0=20
MHz. Polarization is vertical, and audio is monaural at 6.80=20
MHz. Audio of the broadcast will be available on voice circuit=20
at the Kennedy Space Center on 321/867-1220.

For a live webcast of the briefing and information about NASA=20
TV on the Internet, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/ntv



--part1_1ee.1a57eef9.2d74fc06_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Hi All - <BR>
<BR>
The SPACE.com story was annoying because NASA scientists asked us all to hol=
d back until they had their data nailed down.&nbsp; Anyway, the flood gates=20=
(pun intended) will open tomorrow.<BR>
<BR>
Erik Baard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM NASA HEADQUARTERS, IN WASHINGTON, <B=
R>
DC, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.=A0 (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY <BR=
>
ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)=A0 Steve Maran, <BR>
American Astronomical Society<BR>
<BR>
Donald Savage <BR>
Headquarters, Washington=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 March 1, 200=
4<BR>
(Phone: 202/358-1547)<BR>
<BR>
Guy Webster<BR>
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.<BR>
(Phone: 818/354-5011)<BR>
<BR>
NOTE TO EDITORS: N04-038<BR>
<BR>
NASA HEADQUARTERS MARS-ROVER OPPORTUNITY PRESS BRIEFING MARCH 2<BR>
<BR>
=A0 =A0=A0 Significant findings from NASA's Mars Exploration Rover <BR>
Opportunity, now exploring Meridiani Planum on Mars, will be <BR>
announced at a press briefing at 2 p.m. EST, Tuesday, March 2, <BR>
2004, at NASA Headquarters, Washington.<BR>
<BR>
The briefing will originate from the James E. Webb Auditorium, <BR>
300 E St., S.W., Washington, and will be carried live on NASA <BR>
TV with two-way question-and-answer capability for reporters <BR>
covering the event from participating NASA centers.<BR>
<BR>
Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator, Office of Space Science <BR>
at NASA Headquarters, will make opening remarks. The panelists <BR>
include:<BR>
<BR>
--Professor Steve Squyres, Mars Exploration Rover (MER) <BR>
Principal Investigator, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.<BR>
--Professor John Grotzinger, MER science team geologist, <BR>
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass.<BR>
--Dr. Benton C. Clark III, MER science team member and Chief <BR>
Scientist of Space Exploration, Lockheed Martin Space Systems <BR>
Astronautics Operations, Denver<BR>
--Dr. Joy Crisp, MER Project Scientist, NASA's Jet Propulsion <BR>
Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.<BR>
--Dr. Jim Garvin, Lead Scientist for Mars and the Moon, NASA <BR>
Headquarters<BR>
<BR>
NASA Television is available on AMC-9, transponder 9C, C-Band, <BR>
located at 85 degrees west longitude. The frequency is 3880.0 <BR>
MHz. Polarization is vertical, and audio is monaural at 6.80 <BR>
MHz. Audio of the broadcast will be available on voice circuit <BR>
at the Kennedy Space Center on 321/867-1220.<BR>
<BR>
For a live webcast of the briefing and information about NASA <BR>
TV on the Internet, visit:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.nasa.gov/ntv<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1ee.1a57eef9.2d74fc06_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 13:04:59 2004
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Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:01:22 -0500
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> ... So, when I read that Levine had not only
> synthesized left handed sugar but had a process to mass produce it...

I'm confused.  Which sugar is it that he inverted to form "left handed" 
sugar?

I thought the mirror of dextrose, aka glucose, was levulose, aka 
fructose, which is found in most fruit.  It's eminently digestable, of 
course.

Sucrose (table sugar), IIRC, is dextrose and levulose linked, and hence 
(I would have thought!) is its own mirror image.

So, "L-sugar" is not the inverse of any of the "common three" small 
sugars.  Presumably, it's something quite a bit bigger -- yes?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 13:13:19 2004
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Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:10:16 -0800 (PST)
From: alexander hollins <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dry ice/alchohol liquid nitrogen
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good point.  and i intend too.  but i also want to get
some higher con isopropal.  the gelling effect
interests me, and i want to see if it still happens.
--- Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com> wrote:
> alexander hollins wrote:
> 
> >followups that i have planned is cooling the
> alchohol
> >indirectly, to prevent co2 from getting in in as
> high
> >a concentration, and trying to get my hands on a
> >higher concentration alchohol. 
> >
> 
> Everclear or Golden Grain from your local spirit
> dealer is 95% ethanol. 
> 
> And you can drink to your successes or failures!
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 13:29:47 2004
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Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:27:01 -0500
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Call me crazy, but this sure looks like standing water around this rock:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/036/1P131377170EFF0500P2532R1M1.JPG<

Notice some of the spherules seem to be submerged.

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------060601070103060004020105
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Someone claimed they found standing water in Surveyor images (small 
attachment).

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--------------060601070103060004020105--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 13:47:05 2004
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040301151321.01cb6210 pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Message sent to Mark Goldes about magic magnet motor
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:43:21 -0800
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Here is the site again:
http://www.magnethealer.com/index.html

It has all the ear-markings of a scam, but let's reserve judgement to see if Mark's crew sees any hope of success. I am convinced that a self-spinner is possible, but not a device that will produce substanital OU to power an external load. My reasoning for this is based on spin-spin interactions (and not very well thought-out so far).

If the company in question has anything of value, it was obviously not created by an electrical engineer, nor even a well-educated inventor as they confuse 'power' with 'potential' on several occasions... but the crucial point here - as common sense dictates (and someone has already suggested) is that if it was a real thing, or even a minimally sophisticated scam, they would at least show a jpeg of the model they are trying to unload on the ever-present optimists of the world. This looks like the no-frills grift deluxe: nothing but hot air and cyberspace as overhead !

As to the motivation, the model for all of this is, of course, the inimitable Joe Newman who has made a small fortune sellling overpriced self-published books, despite his so-called invention being litttle more than... well, let's don't go there, as we don't want to encourage anyone from that camp to get their dander up as has happened periodically in past years.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 13:54:45 2004
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Subject: RE: NASA's Silence
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At 2:49 AM 3/2/4, explorecraft wrote:
>I know I promised,
> but 1M131296201EFF0500P2933M2M1.jpg
> has crystals,
> cubic facets if my eyes aren't shot.

Hey ... who can resist?  Being able to witness this is one of the great
experiences of many centuries of lifetimes.  It seems almost more the stuff
of science fiction than the reality it is.


>
> Meaning salt, grown by dessication? in all probablility.
> Out of solution, not necessarily not exclusively
> but most likely some solution of water-borne salts.
> Look carfully and you will see the growth steps.
>
> Green/blue features probably have some amounts of
> ferrous and cupric chlorides, both hydrous mineral.
>
>And by the way Horace,
> the official version is spherules form like raindrops
> growing out of the soil,


That was Gilbert Levine's opinion I think, who is somewhat of a NASA
outcast.  Hopefully, though, the folks at NASA have had the common sense to
have biologists, especially lichen experts and microbiologists, look at the
data.



> your version is they grow like grapes.

Yep, some at least are clearly little fruiting bodies, and when trapped for
eons in accumulating layers of stuff, they leave accreted and fossilized
images of themselves.  It appears that in at least some of the white stuff
Opportuinty is grinding though, they are merely frozen.

Many of the spheres clearly have an ostiole, and there is even evidence for
a perithecium in an ostiole.  However, I wonder if a major function of some
or all of the fruiting bodies is to store water.  Much more of the volume
of the bodies appears to be water/gell than for terrestrial varieties.

BTW, it is interesting that when the desert varish is brushed off from
basalt rocks the basalt underneath is black.  This means of course that the
desert varnish is lighter, that the light side of such black basalt rocks
is where the bacteria have grown.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 13:55:41 2004
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Subject: Biospherix
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My info on Levine's company was way out of date and a bit wrong (not
surprising after 20 years!)  See:


>http://www.tagatose.com/<

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Terry Blanton wrote:
> Call me crazy, but this sure looks like standing water around this rock:
> 
>  >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/036/1P131377170EFF0500P2532R1M1.JPG<
> 
> Notice some of the spherules seem to be submerged.

Impressive.

Sadly short on specular reflections, unfortunately.  Pebble shadows 
falling on the surface, plus lack of reflections, make it look like the 
stuff -- water, mud, dust, whatever -- is opaque with a non-shiny surface.

The angle looks pretty steep, though, which tends to reduce visible 
reflections.  A shallower view might show some, if it's really water (or 
mud).

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 14:14:32 2004
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> My info on Levine's company was way out of date and a bit wrong (not
> surprising after 20 years!)  See:
> 
> 
> 
>>http://www.tagatose.com/<
> 

Thanks.

Sounds a little like xylitol, but with fewer calories.

The structural formula

http://food.oregonstate.edu/sugar/tagatose.html

doesn't look like what I think of as a sugar, but it's been an awfully 
long time since I took a chemistry course.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 15:55:28 2004
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From: "SnowDog" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
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Subject: Desert Varnish?
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I think Horace mentioned this, but take a look at this picture:

http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars7.htm

Even though I can't calibrate the color, for reasons outlined earlier, I
think it's fair to say that the rock is red, while that which covers it is
not.

Desert Varnish?

Craig Haynie

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I keep getting "connection refused" msgs.

SnowDog wrote:

>I think Horace mentioned this, but take a look at this picture:
>
>http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars7.htm
>
>Even though I can't calibrate the color, for reasons outlined earlier, I
>think it's fair to say that the rock is red, while that which covers it is
>not.
>
>Desert Varnish?
>
>Craig Haynie
>
>
>  
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 18:56:29 2004
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Subject: Re: Desert Varnish?
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> >Even though I can't calibrate the color, for reasons outlined earlier, I
> >think it's fair to say that the rock is red, while that which covers it
is
> >not.
> >
> >Desert Varnish?

I've put the image here, as well:

http://home.houston.rr.com/haynie/mars.htm

Craig Haynie

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 18:56:41 2004
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Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:43:21 -0500
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There do seem to be reflections in:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/036/1P131377170EFF0500P2532R1M1.JPG<

two small bright spots half way across the x-axis and 10% up in the y .

If you alt+tab this image with:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/036/1P131377137EFF0500P2532L7M1.JPG<

there are two other reflections in the former but not in the latter - 
probably due to the angle.

"Place your bets!"

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> >http://www.golddirectory.com/images/mars7.htm

> I keep getting "connection refused" msgs.

The past few days, my website has been going up and down continuously. It's
a shame. It's been so strong the past 5 years, but now it's unreliable.
It'll be up soon -- maybe by morning. I'm trying to find another ISP at the
moment.

Craig Haynie

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SnowDog wrote:

>I've put the image here, as well:
>
>http://home.houston.rr.com/haynie/mars.htm
>

Absolutely beautiful!

I made it my wallpaper.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  1 21:12:50 2004
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At 10:12 PM 3/1/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>SnowDog wrote:
>
>>I've put the image here, as well:
>>
>>http://home.houston.rr.com/haynie/mars.htm
>>
>
>Absolutely beautiful!


Amen to that!  I don't think the red powder is desert varnish though.  I
think that red powder might be what you get when you grind up frozen Mars
lichen.  It's mostly water, but there is a fibrous matrix that appears to
show up when the stuff is ground.   Interesting that the balls are blue in
cross-section.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 03:35:41 2004
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Hi Keith, you wrote.
>
> BTW a new study proves H2O2 present on mars. I'll bet the upcoming press
> will be about the discovery of martian free energy Sparberinos!

Naw, Keith, that (solar) free energy generator is still bathing the Earth with about
12,000 Quads/day and Mars with about 6,000 Quads/day with free energy.

The total daily world production and use of most of this free energy is about One
Quad/day.

At the present rate of use and pollution, our grandkids will probably end up following
livestock around the meadow with a "pooper scooper" in order to fuel their biomass
converter.

The CF/OU crowd hasn't produced enough net free energy in the last 15 years to rival
the free energy Btu output from a "cow pie".

Lots of BullShit though.  :-)

Regards,

Frederick

> K.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 03:59:49 2004
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> >>http://home.houston.rr.com/haynie/mars.htm
>
> Amen to that!  I don't think the red powder is desert varnish though. ...

No, the red powder proves that the rock is red. What's that darker stuff on
top of the rock?

Craig

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At 5:59 AM 3/2/4, SnowDog wrote:
>> >>http://home.houston.rr.com/haynie/mars.htm
>>
>> Amen to that!  I don't think the red powder is desert varnish though. ...
>
>No, the red powder proves that the rock is red. What's that darker stuff on
>top of the rock?
>
>Craig


If the rock were red then the flat ground surface would be red.  The ground
surface is not red. It is white.  I think the white stuff is mostly frozen
water, a kind of fibrous gel.  The red comes from the fibrous material, and
must be the natural (unfrozen, air exposed) color of the lichen.  Lichen is
basically just mold fibers mixed with cyano bacteria or algae.  From the
looks of the red powder, I'd hypothesise (guess) its color came from live
cyano bacteria.

>From previous photos, I just don't think the white stuff is rock.  It is at
least in part flexible and fibrous.

I think the dark stuff on top of the underlying frozen white stuff is
merely dirt - probably just dirt consisting mostly of weathered basalt
rock.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 06:29:23 2004
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http://www.californiasolarcenter.org/solareclips/solareclips052003.html

"On the horizon: a virtually perfect solar cell [Lawrence Berkeley Labs] - An
unexpected discovery at the Dept of Energy's Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL) may
push the implementation of PV's sooner than later. A serendipitous discovery by the
lab about the electronic properties of Indium Nitride may eventually yield high
efficiency solar PV's, by making use of the entire spectrum of the suns radiation.
While research the properties of the LED's (light emitting diodes) researchers found
that band-gap energy of Indium Nitride is 0.7 electron volts, much lower than the 2.0
electron volts previously expected. The Band-gap energy is the amount of energy needed
to free an electron from its atom; a solar cell material can only capture sunlight at
energies equal to or greater than its band-gap energy. The lower band-gap energy of
Indium Nitride means that it can capture sunlight at much lower energies than
expected, so the material is able to capture low-frequency, red or infrared light, in
other words a broader spectrum of radiant energy. This discovery may lead to 2 layer
PV's that can be 50% efficient in converting sunlight-to-electricity. (source:
BIPERUSA May 2003 newsletter)."


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At 5:59 AM 3/2/4, SnowDog wrote:
>> >>http://home.houston.rr.com/haynie/mars.htm
>>
>> Amen to that!  I don't think the red powder is desert varnish though. ...
>
>No, the red powder proves that the rock is red. What's that darker stuff on
>top of the rock?
>
>Craig


If the rock were red then the flat ground surface would be red.  The ground
surface is not red. It is white.  I think the white stuff is mostly frozen
water, a kind of fibrous gel.  The red comes from the fibrous material, and
must be the natural (unfrozen, air exposed) color of the lichen.  Lichen is
basically just mold fibers mixed with cyano bacteria or algae.  From the
looks of the red powder, I'd hypothesise (guess) its color came from live
cyano bacteria.

>From previous photos, I just don't think the white stuff is rock.  It is at
least in part flexible and fibrous.

I think the dark stuff on top of the underlying frozen white stuff is
merely dirt - probably just dirt consisting mostly of weathered basalt
rock.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 5:59 AM 3/2/4, SnowDog wrote:
>> >>http://home.houston.rr.com/haynie/mars.htm
>>
>> Amen to that!  I don't think the red powder is desert varnish though. ...
>
>No, the red powder proves that the rock is red. What's that darker stuff on
>top of the rock?
>
>Craig


If the rock were red then the flat ground surface would be red.  The ground
surface is not red. It is white.  I think the white stuff is mostly frozen
water, a kind of fibrous gel.  The red comes from the fibrous material, and
must be the natural (unfrozen, air exposed) color of the lichen.  Lichen is
basically just mold fibers mixed with cyano bacteria or algae.  From the
looks of the red powder, I'd hypothesise (guess) its color came from live
cyano bacteria.  From previous photos, I just don't think the white stuff
is rock.  It is at least in part flexible and fibrous.

I think the dark stuff on top of the underlying frozen white stuff is
merely dirt - probably just dirt consisting mostly of weathered basalt
rock.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Martian metabolism
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Assuming that there is life on Mars, has anyone thought about the =
metabolic pathways that would be available?

The only authoritative reference that I can find states that the Martian =
atmosphere consists of only 0.13% molecular oxygen. That is a big =
problem for finding many kinds of oxidative metabolism. Of course, like =
plants on earth CO2 could be photosynthesized, but that seems less =
probable in the low solar flux.

OTOH if all those beautiful blue rocks are really cuprates.... well, on =
earth at least copper ore is rarely found without small percentages of =
Pd and Ni...=20

Kervran's Proof of Biological Transmutation has been mentioned many =
times here. Is there any obvious reason why some kind of LENR could not =
have evolved (ala Kervan) in Martian life?=20

Jones
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<DIV>Assuming that there is life on Mars, has anyone thought about the =
metabolic=20
pathways that would be available?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The only authoritative reference that I can find states that the =
Martian=20
atmosphere consists of only 0.13% molecular oxygen. That is a big =
problem for=20
finding many kinds of oxidative metabolism. Of course, like plants on =
earth CO2=20
could be photosynthesized, but that seems less probable in&nbsp;the low =
solar=20
flux.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OTOH if all those beautiful blue rocks are really cuprates.... =
well, on=20
earth at least copper ore is rarely found without small percentages of =
Pd and=20
Ni... </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Kervran's Proof of Biological Transmutation has been mentioned many =
times=20
here. Is there any obvious reason why some kind of LENR could not have =
evolved=20
(ala Kervan) in Martian life? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jones Beene=20
  To: vortex=20
  Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:29 AM
  Subject: Martian metabolism


  Assuming that there is life on Mars, has anyone thought about the =
metabolic pathways that would be available?

  Try this Jones.  Then again there is CO and HO-OH, and H2, where the =
"waste" product is H2O or CO2.

  Anerobic bacterial metabolism is poisoned by O2. :-)

  Frederick

  UMass Microbiologist Focuses on Iron-Eating Bacteria
  Findings have implications on beginning of life on Earth=20
  AMHERST, Mass. -- University of Massachusetts microbiologist Derek =
Lovley has made a discovery which opens a window to understanding how =
life began on Earth. Lovley has determined that certain kinds of =
microorganisms, which live several miles below ground, can use iron to =
metabolize their food. The findings are reported in the Sept. 3 issue of =
the journal Nature, and will be featured in an upcoming segment of the =
television show "Discover Magazine," on the Discovery Channel.=20

  Lovley, head of the microbiology department, studies unusual forms of =
anaerobic microorganisms: in other words, bacteria that transform their =
food into energy without using oxygen. "The research helps us to =
understand life on Earth a little bit better," Lovley said, "but it also =
has a practical side." His previous research has demonstrated that =
microorganisms that can grow on iron can be used in treating =
contaminated groundwater. The microorganisms use petroleum contaminants, =
such as benzene, as food, and literally eat away at contamination. These =
organisms can also remove toxic metals such as uranium and chromium from =
contaminated waters. His most recent findings focus on =
"hyperthermophiles": literally, those who love hot temperatures. =
Hyperthermophiles are the organisms most closely related to early forms =
of life, from which modern bacteria, plants, and animals have descended, =
Lovley said.=20

  It was previously believed that some of the first microorganisms used =
sulfur to grow. But geologists noted that sulfur did not exist in the =
proper form on early Earth. There was, however, abundant iron, so Lovley =
set about determining whether iron could serve as an energy source for =
these early bacteria. "You can't go back three billion years, but you =
can study these hyperthermophiles, which are the modern organisms most =
closely related to early life," said Lovley.=20

  Studying seven species of hyperthermophiles, he determined that every =
single one could use iron to metabolize its food. This lends weight to =
the theory that iron was essential for the growth of early life on =
Earth, according to Lovley. One type of hyperthermophile in particular, =
thermotoga, used iron in a very central way, and sulfur in a very =
trivial way, suggesting that iron was more central to the metabolism of =
early organisms than sulfur. All of the hyperthermophiles converted iron =
oxide to the magnetic mineral, magnetite, during their growth on iron. =
This is significant because geologists have found large accumulations of =
magnetite on early Earth. Furthermore, magnetite found deep below the =
Earth's surface and in a Martian meteorite has been thought to provide =
evidence for the possibility of life existing in these extreme =
environments.

  The only authoritative reference that I can find states that the =
Martian atmosphere consists of only 0.13% molecular oxygen. That is a =
big problem for finding many kinds of oxidative metabolism. Of course, =
like plants on earth CO2 could be photosynthesized, but that seems less =
probable in the low solar flux.

  OTOH if all those beautiful blue rocks are really cuprates.... well, =
on earth at least copper ore is rarely found without small percentages =
of Pd and Ni...=20

  Kervran's Proof of Biological Transmutation has been mentioned many =
times here. Is there any obvious reason why some kind of LENR could not =
have evolved (ala Kervan) in Martian life?=20

  Jones

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net" =
title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net>Jones Beene</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com"=20
  title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com>vortex</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 02, 2004 =
9:29=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Martian =
metabolism</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Assuming that there is life on Mars, has anyone thought about the =

  metabolic pathways that would be available?</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Try this Jones.&nbsp; Then again there is CO and =
HO-OH, and=20
  H2, where the "waste" product is&nbsp;H2O or CO2.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Anerobic bacterial metabolism is poisoned by O2.=20
  :-)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Frederick</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>
  <H3>UMass Microbiologist Focuses on Iron-Eating =
Bacteria</H3><B>Findings have=20
  implications on beginning of life on Earth</B>=20
  <P>AMHERST, Mass. -- University of Massachusetts microbiologist Derek =
Lovley=20
  has made a discovery which opens a window to understanding how life =
began on=20
  Earth. Lovley has determined that certain kinds of microorganisms, =
which live=20
  several miles below ground, can use iron to metabolize their food. The =

  findings are reported in the Sept. 3 issue of the journal Nature, and =
will be=20
  featured in an upcoming segment of the television show "Discover =
Magazine," on=20
  the Discovery Channel.=20
  <P>Lovley, head of the microbiology department, studies unusual forms =
of=20
  anaerobic microorganisms: in other words, bacteria that transform =
their food=20
  into energy without using oxygen. "The research helps us to understand =
life on=20
  Earth a little bit better," Lovley said, "but it also has a practical =
side."=20
  His previous research has demonstrated that microorganisms that can =
grow on=20
  iron can be used in treating contaminated groundwater. The =
microorganisms use=20
  petroleum contaminants, such as benzene, as food, and literally eat =
away at=20
  contamination. These organisms can also remove toxic metals such as =
uranium=20
  and chromium from contaminated waters. His most recent findings focus =
on=20
  "hyperthermophiles": literally, those who love hot temperatures.=20
  Hyperthermophiles are the organisms most closely related to early =
forms of=20
  life, from which modern bacteria, plants, and animals have descended, =
Lovley=20
  said.=20
  <P>It was previously believed that some of the first microorganisms =
used=20
  sulfur to grow. But geologists noted that sulfur did not exist in the =
proper=20
  form on early Earth. There was, however, abundant iron, so Lovley set =
about=20
  determining whether iron could serve as an energy source for these =
early=20
  bacteria. "You can't go back three billion years, but you can study =
these=20
  hyperthermophiles, which are the modern organisms most closely related =
to=20
  early life," said Lovley.=20
  <P>Studying seven species of hyperthermophiles, he determined that =
every=20
  single one could use iron to metabolize its food. This lends weight to =
the=20
  theory that iron was essential for the growth of early life on Earth,=20
  according to Lovley. One type of hyperthermophile in particular, =
thermotoga,=20
  used iron in a very central way, and sulfur in a very trivial way, =
suggesting=20
  that iron was more central to the metabolism of early organisms than =
sulfur.=20
  All of the hyperthermophiles converted iron oxide to the magnetic =
mineral,=20
  magnetite, during their growth on iron. This is significant because =
geologists=20
  have found large accumulations of magnetite on early Earth. =
Furthermore,=20
  magnetite found deep below the Earth's surface and in a Martian =
meteorite has=20
  been thought to provide evidence for the possibility of life existing =
in these=20
  extreme environments.</FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>The only authoritative reference that I can find states that the =
Martian=20
  atmosphere consists of only 0.13% molecular oxygen. That is a big =
problem for=20
  finding many kinds of oxidative metabolism. Of course, like plants on =
earth=20
  CO2 could be photosynthesized, but that seems less probable =
in&nbsp;the low=20
  solar flux.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>OTOH if all those beautiful blue rocks are really cuprates.... =
well, on=20
  earth at least copper ore is rarely found without small percentages of =
Pd and=20
  Ni... </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Kervran's Proof of Biological Transmutation has been mentioned =
many times=20
  here. Is there any obvious reason why some kind of LENR could not have =
evolved=20
  (ala Kervan) in Martian life? </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Jones</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>If the rock were red then the flat ground surface would be red.  The ground
>surface is not red. It is white.  I think the white stuff is mostly frozen
>water, a kind of fibrous gel.  The red comes from the fibrous material, and
>must be the natural (unfrozen, air exposed) color of the lichen.  Lichen is
>basically just mold fibers mixed with cyano bacteria or algae.  From the
>looks of the red powder, I'd hypothesise (guess) its color came from live
>cyano bacteria.
>

There should be data on the RAT grinding effort that could support 
this.  It would take a lot less energy to grind a given depth in the 
material you describe than the basalt at the Spirit site.



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Subject: Re: Martian metabolism
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si, carbonates freed from rock would be an oxygen
pathway possibilitie.  also, your looking at CURRENT
life.  for all we know, mars once had a thicker
atmosphere with more o2.  
--- Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Jones Beene 
>   To: vortex 
>   Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:29 AM
>   Subject: Martian metabolism
> 
> 
>   Assuming that there is life on Mars, has anyone
> thought about the metabolic pathways that would be
> available?
> 
>   Try this Jones.  Then again there is CO and HO-OH,
> and H2, where the "waste" product is H2O or CO2.
> 
>   Anerobic bacterial metabolism is poisoned by O2.
> :-)
> 
>   Frederick
> 
>   UMass Microbiologist Focuses on Iron-Eating
> Bacteria
>   Findings have implications on beginning of life on
> Earth 
>   AMHERST, Mass. -- University of Massachusetts
> microbiologist Derek Lovley has made a discovery
> which opens a window to understanding how life began
> on Earth. Lovley has determined that certain kinds
> of microorganisms, which live several miles below
> ground, can use iron to metabolize their food. The
> findings are reported in the Sept. 3 issue of the
> journal Nature, and will be featured in an upcoming
> segment of the television show "Discover Magazine,"
> on the Discovery Channel. 
> 
>   Lovley, head of the microbiology department,
> studies unusual forms of anaerobic microorganisms:
> in other words, bacteria that transform their food
> into energy without using oxygen. "The research
> helps us to understand life on Earth a little bit
> better," Lovley said, "but it also has a practical
> side." His previous research has demonstrated that
> microorganisms that can grow on iron can be used in
> treating contaminated groundwater. The
> microorganisms use petroleum contaminants, such as
> benzene, as food, and literally eat away at
> contamination. These organisms can also remove toxic
> metals such as uranium and chromium from
> contaminated waters. His most recent findings focus
> on "hyperthermophiles": literally, those who love
> hot temperatures. Hyperthermophiles are the
> organisms most closely related to early forms of
> life, from which modern bacteria, plants, and
> animals have descended, Lovley said. 
> 
>   It was previously believed that some of the first
> microorganisms used sulfur to grow. But geologists
> noted that sulfur did not exist in the proper form
> on early Earth. There was, however, abundant iron,
> so Lovley set about determining whether iron could
> serve as an energy source for these early bacteria.
> "You can't go back three billion years, but you can
> study these hyperthermophiles, which are the modern
> organisms most closely related to early life," said
> Lovley. 
> 
>   Studying seven species of hyperthermophiles, he
> determined that every single one could use iron to
> metabolize its food. This lends weight to the theory
> that iron was essential for the growth of early life
> on Earth, according to Lovley. One type of
> hyperthermophile in particular, thermotoga, used
> iron in a very central way, and sulfur in a very
> trivial way, suggesting that iron was more central
> to the metabolism of early organisms than sulfur.
> All of the hyperthermophiles converted iron oxide to
> the magnetic mineral, magnetite, during their growth
> on iron. This is significant because geologists have
> found large accumulations of magnetite on early
> Earth. Furthermore, magnetite found deep below the
> Earth's surface and in a Martian meteorite has been
> thought to provide evidence for the possibility of
> life existing in these extreme environments.
> 
>   The only authoritative reference that I can find
> states that the Martian atmosphere consists of only
> 0.13% molecular oxygen. That is a big problem for
> finding many kinds of oxidative metabolism. Of
> course, like plants on earth CO2 could be
> photosynthesized, but that seems less probable in
> the low solar flux.
> 
>   OTOH if all those beautiful blue rocks are really
> cuprates.... well, on earth at least copper ore is
> rarely found without small percentages of Pd and
> Ni... 
> 
>   Kervran's Proof of Biological Transmutation has
> been mentioned many times here. Is there any obvious
> reason why some kind of LENR could not have evolved
> (ala Kervan) in Martian life? 
> 
>   Jones
> 


__________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 09:09:16 2004
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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <BAY5-F26QFZOTH8W71S00008305 hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetic motor URL is:  http://www.magnethealer.com/learn.html
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:10:47 -0000
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Mark- If you could communicate with me off line I would be interested in
some commercial discussions.

Look forward to hearing from you

Noel D. Whitney
Quantum Leap Ltd
Dublin
Ireland
Home Tel 00 3531 2854626
www.quantumleap.ie
E-mail - info quantumleap.ie.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:48 PM
Subject: RE: Magnetic motor URL is: http://www.magnethealer.com/learn.html


> Jed,
>
> Jones figured out the URL yesterday.  I accidently had omitted it from my
> earlier post.  I confirmed he was correct last evening.
>
> One of our engineers had ordered the booklet and we will see what come of
> it.  This might well be a scam.
>
> If it should happen to be real, our firm would be delighted, but we are a
> licensing firm and not in the magnet business.  We will leave sales to
> others.
>
> We do hope to develop toys of this general nature that we will license in
> the future.
>
> Our business is the development and licensing of self-powered
> generators(tm).  We hope to have practical multi-kilowatt magnetic
> generators under license by the end of the year.   We are not seeking
> publicity about our work, but plan to leave that to licensees.
>
> We also are developing Ultraconductors(tm) through a subsidiary.  These
are
> a practical equivalent of ambient temperature superconductors.  see
> www.ultraconductors.com for more information.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Goldes
> Chairman & CEO
> Magnetic Power Inc.
> Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.
>
>
>
>
> >From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> >Subject: Message sent to Mark Goldes about magic magnet motor
> >Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:23:22 -0500
> >
> >I sent the attached message to Mark Goldes about the claim he made here.
> >However, I missed the web site address he is talking about. I still can't
> >find it in the message stream. Maybe he is describing someone else's web
> >site, not his own, and maybe he cannot address my questions.
> >
> >I apologize to Mark if he means someone else is selling this. Also, I
would
> >like to know who it is.
> >
> >If this is Mark, and the gadget works as advertised, he could to sell ten
> >thousand of them in no time, at a huge profit. I thought he is in the
> >magnet business, so I cannot understand why he wouldn't want to sell
them.
> >
> >I agree with Explorecraft that this has the hallmarks of a scam. Even
> >though I have not seen the photos he refers to, I already get that
> >impression. If this is an honest, legitimate claim, the authors should
make
> >haste to correct this impression.
> >
> >Terry Blanton said this gadget was described in 1980. Does anyone know if
> >there reports that it worked? Goldes said that he (or whoever it is) do
not
> >claim they invented it, and it has been around since the 1930s, so the
> >authors are not trying to get away with anything on that score.
> >
> >- Jed
> >
> >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >
> >Mark,
> >
> >Have you actually seen and operated one of these things? Will you offer a
> >money back guarantee that it works? How long did it spin in the longest
> >test you tried?
> >
> >I hope you realize this is a very fishy claim you are making. Why on
earth
> >would you not be willing to assemble and sell more of these things?!?
Even
> >if you have no patent for the device, you could easily make millions of
> >dollars selling them. People make money selling popcorn, which was not
> >invented lately. You could make tens of millions improving the gadgets.
> >
> >I would happy to pay $2,000 for an assembled, tested gadget that you
> >certify will work. You send me the gadget first. I will pay if it works,
or
> >return it if it does not.
> >
> >- Jed
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
> http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/
>
>
>

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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This little clip is from the first PanCam image on sol 37 by 
Opportunity.  The marble in the center clearly has a stalk extending to 
the "rock".



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 09:13:16 2004
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Sulfates found on Mars
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:38:12 -0500
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In the grand tradition of vortex, you heard it here first...

(Poetic translation provided by google).

The Tuxedo Gun has been found!

K.


"Opportunity" finds proof for Mars floods
Of Thorsten Dambeck

The proof succeeded to the Mars Rover "Opportunity" that on Mars once water
flowed. How MIRROR ON-line ONE from NASA circles experienced, will the US
space agency the discovery this evening admits to give.

"I am baff, I am surprised", said Steve Squyres, scientific
director/conductor of the Rover mission, in view of the photos of the second
Mars vehicle "Opportunity". No other landing place resembled the far level
Meridiani subgrade level, in which the sister probe of "Spirit" had come
down. Particularly done showed up the researcher of the bright
gesteinsformation, which out-peeped directly before the camera eyes of the
Rovers from the dark Mars and.

After detailed mineralogical and chemical analysis of the rock in the last
weeks it seems now clear that Squyres spontaneous enthusiasm was justified.
As MIRROR ON-line ONE from circles of the US space agency experienced, it
concerns with the rock formation sediments, which were formed definitely in
a standing waters.

First suspicion confirms

The "tuxedo Gun", the irrefutable proof for the existence of past tides on
Mars, is one in the stones discovered sulfate connection, which can be
formed only in the environment by water. NASA wants to present the results
in the today's Tuesday evening at 20 o'clock German time on a press
conference in Washington.

The first close-ups of the formation had already fed the suspicion of the
Planetologen that the rocks could have resulted from sedimentation, thus by
deposit. The individual layers were to be constituted on the highly
dissolving snapshots of the panorama camera of "Opportunity" clearly. The
Moessbauer spectrometer "Mimos II" of the Mainzer of physicist Goestar
Klingelhoefer might have played an important contribution with the
discovery, which is responsible for the mineralogical analysis of
eisenhaltiger Mars rocks.

Break-through with German instruments

Already on 9 February German members of the Rover Forschertruppe had
announced surprising results of its APXS instrument ("alpha Particle x-Ray
Spectrometer"). Afterwards analyses with the spectrometer in a bright rock
with the name "Robert E" had resulted in by far higher contents of zinc and
sulfur than with all Mars breaking into examined so far. "this points on it
that the stone a solidified, salzhaltige deposit and not volcanic origin
is", explained a coworker of the max Plack institute for chemistry, where
the APXS spectrometer was built.

In addition, if non-volcanic processes were more and more favored: NASA
researchers stressed into the past week again and again that different
developing mechanisms - also variants without the influence of liquid
water - for the rock formation at "Opportunitys" are conceivable landing
place. Now, then it seems, however liquid water running made.

Thus the US Rover from the soil would have confirmed, what had already
recognized the European probe "Mars express" from the orbit: At the end of
January Esa scientist the breath-robbing pictures of the red planet as clear
proof had rated that on Mars once rivers and seas existed.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 09:28:14 2004
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Subject: Re: Martian metabolism
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----- Original Message -----
From: "alexander hollins"

> si, carbonates freed from rock would be an oxygen
> pathway possibilities.

You don't need O2 for "metabolism" . All you need is a chemical reaction that releases
energy.

The CO produced from the solar (ultraviolet photon) splitting of the Martian CO2
atmosphere reduces FeO to Fe + O, same as a steel mill, or the H2 in the atmosphere
(ultraviolet splitting of H2O to H + OH) reduces FeO to  Fe + H2O etc.
>
> also, your looking at CURRENT
> life.  for all we know, mars once had a thicker
> atmosphere with more o2.

There is ample evidence that earth's early atmosphere  had virtually no free O2 ie.,
before photosynthesis/plant life "evolved".

Regards,

Frederick



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Oops.

> The CO produced from the solar (ultraviolet photon) splitting of the Martian CO2
> atmosphere reduces FeO to Fe + O, same as a steel mill, or the H2 in the atmosphere
> (ultraviolet splitting of H2O to H + OH) reduces FeO to  Fe + H2O etc.


Should Be:

The CO produced from the solar (ultraviolet photon) splitting of the Martian CO2
atmosphere reduces FeO to Fe + CO2, same as a steel mill, or the H2 in the atmosphere
(ultraviolet splitting of H2O to H + OH) reduces FeO to  Fe + H2O etc.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 10:17:12 2004
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Martian Marble Metabolism
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Frederick Sparber writes,

 > The CO produced from the solar (ultraviolet photon)
splitting of the Martian CO2 atmosphere reduces FeO to
Fe + CO2, same as a steel mill, or the H2 in the
atmosphere (ultraviolet splitting of H2O to H + OH)
reduces FeO to  Fe + H2O etc. 

Is there enough UV coming in? Also wouldn't the CO2
already in the atmosphere scatter and downshift much
of the UV before it reaches the surface?

I guess the main problem with either iron-eating or
carbonate-eating biological life is "what is the
energy source" for breaking the rather strong oxygen
bonding? Mars is cold and has a low solar flux - which
does not necessarily eliminate the sun being the
energy source, but in evolution - if there were any
valid competing methods, they  might fare well. I
wonder if that German spectrograph can tell us if the
calcium-to-potassium ratio is altered over normal
ranges in any of those "brine" areas. 

BTW look at the shadows on Terry's "impaled ball"
photo. Is the ball really marble sized? The stalk
elevates the ball a fair distance at an oblique angle,
a close analogy being some kind of a ball fungus.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 10:41:37 2004
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Subject: Re: Martian Marble Metabolism
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Jones Beene wrote:

>BTW look at the shadows on Terry's "impaled ball"
>photo. Is the ball really marble sized? The stalk
>elevates the ball a fair distance at an oblique angle,
>a close analogy being some kind of a ball fungus.
>

We need to remember that this is another planet.  Life there might have 
no analogy on earth.  Horace's lichen and the fungal balls could be 
something like . . . are you ready for this?? . . .

Funchen!

(Don't say it out loud in mixed company.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 12:08:08 2004
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:07:43 -0800 (PST)
From: alexander hollins <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Impaled Ball
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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no lr images, so cant make stereoscopic, and the
filters that came through are 4-7, so colorizing is
iffy, but any way you try to combine for colors, the
tip shows the same as some of the spheroids around on
teh ground, but not the stalk, it stays the same as
the rock. 
--- Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com> wrote:
> This little clip is from the first PanCam image on
> sol 37 by 
> Opportunity.  The marble in the center clearly has a
> stalk extending to 
> the "rock".
> 
> 
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg
name=Mars_Berry_Stem.jpg



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 12:26:47 2004
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:31:37 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Impaled Ball
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At 12:09 PM 3/2/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>This little clip is from the first PanCam image on sol 37 by
>Opportunity.  The marble in the center clearly has a stalk extending to
>the "rock".


Excellent example!  There have been other hints of stems on the berries.
See shadow at lower left

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/035/1P131297854ESF0500P2598
R1M1.HTML <


See possible stem structures in two berries at right of grind photo:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/035/1M131296470EFF0500P2952
M1M1.JPG<

and also in

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/034/1M131212854EFF0500P2959M
>2M1.HTML<


Seems like the stem material, if it exists, may not melt and/or decay as
fast as the overal matrix.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:44:23 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Martian Marble Metabolism
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At 1:40 PM 3/2/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Jones Beene wrote:
>
>>BTW look at the shadows on Terry's "impaled ball"
>>photo. Is the ball really marble sized? The stalk
>>elevates the ball a fair distance at an oblique angle,
>>a close analogy being some kind of a ball fungus.
>>
>
>We need to remember that this is another planet.  Life there might have
>no analogy on earth.  Horace's lichen and the fungal balls could be
>something like . . . are you ready for this?? . . .
>
>Funchen!
>
>(Don't say it out loud in mixed company.)

Hmmm... I guess that means Mars is all funched up?  8^)

Actually lichen IS by definition part fungus part bacteria (and/or algae).
See <http://www.lichen.com>.

There is no need to dream up exotic alien metabolisms (not that they might
not exist!) because it is well known that some terrestrial species of
lichen can live in a martian atmosphere at martian temperatures.  This kind
of experiment was done (I think by NASA I think) way back in the 60's or
70's if memory serves.  It was also done back then by high school kids for
science projects.

There is no need for a continual intense light source.  That is because the
lichen on Mars, if it exists, is only thawed when the light source is
strong.  It "lives" only a small percentage of time.  It is frozen the
rest.  What a weird existence.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Worm wake-ups?
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I keep getting messages with no text.  They zip right on by the email
filter because there is nothing to key on to filter.  No attachments.  They
seem to be attempts to communicate with a resident worm or virus.  The
message seems to be:  "(S:15.43666/98.94254 R:95.9108 P:95.9108 M:98.9607
C:78.1961 )" or "&M)!!cgA"!aK]"!Z&P!!".

Anyone else getting this kind of thing or have any ideas what it is about?
Could be just a probe to see if it bounces?

The message:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 12:57:04 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: AIP notes bubble fusion experiment 
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PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 675 March 3, 2004  by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein

BUBBLE FUSION, the apparent generation of fusion energy through the
violent collapse of bubbles in a liquid tank, has been reported in a
paper about to be published in Physical Review E (Taleyarkhan et
al., upcoming, probably March 2004).  The paper, a followup to a
controversial report published two years ago
(http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2002/split/579-2.html), reports
"statistically significant neutron and gamma ray emissions" after
sound waves and pulsed neutrons hit a chilled liquid acetone tank
spiked with deuterium fuel.  The researchers (Rusi Taleyarkhan,
formerly at Oak Ridge but now at Purdue, 765-494-0198,
rusi purdue.edu ) report the observation of flashes of light
(sonoluminescence) as well as the emission of neutrons with energies
of less than or equal to 2.5 MeV---what you would expect if pairs of
deuterium atoms were fusing together to produce energy in their
setup.  While the researchers describe various improvements to their
experimental setup, in response to comments received in their
original paper 2 years ago, critics (including Aaron Galonsky,
Michigan State, galonsky nscl.msu.edu, 850-267-8976 by phone until
April 1) still have a number of concerns.   According to Galonsky,
the data for neutron emissions is lumped together with data of
gamma-ray emissions. While separating neutron and gamma-ray signals
is challenging, it is necessary to have a clean neutron-only
spectrum to have an unambiguous demonstration of nuclear fusion.
Willy Moss of Livermore (925-422-7302, wmoss llnl.gov) says
"Although I  believe that thermonuclear sonofusion [not to be
confused with cold fusion] may not be impossible...I am still not
convinced... I believe that additional tests need to be done and
many should have been performed and discussed in the paper, for
example...if neutrons are being generated, then how about moving the
scintillator further away from the  sample to see if the signal
decreases, due to the decreasing solid angle of the detector?"
(Other experts, Richard Lahey, RPI, laheyr rpi.edu , 518-276-6614, a
co-author on the paper; Mike Saltmarsh, Oak Ridge, 865-576-6915,
saltmars mail.phy.ornl.gov, co-author of a paper that attempted to
duplicate the initial results but reported a null result---see
Shapira and Saltmarsh, Phys Rev Lett, 19 August 2002)


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From: Baronvolsung aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:24:11 EST
Subject: UN Plans To Destroy the USA With Weather Control & Tesla Force Fields To Stop It
To: SENATOR_MCCAIN MCCAIN.SENATE.GOV, senatorlott@lott.senate.gov,
        senator_lugar lugar.senate.gov, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com,
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-------------------------------1078262651
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en

I have posted below emails on Tesla force fields and weather control ideas=20
that may be used to prevent the Illuminati and the United Nations from=20
destroying North America with weather control plans.  A small ice age can be=
 created in=20
North America by modifying the ocean heat conveyer belt a few degrees and th=
e=20
wobble of the Earth with present day satellite and Earth based weather=20
control technologies.=20
The emails posted below explain how to use Tesla electroscalar waves,=20
photonic and neutrino energies to change weather and create diseases in popu=
lations=20
by placing the disease pattern in photons; and how to jam weather control=20
devices and nuclear radiation with a series of Tesla scalar wave force field=
s.=20
I have first listed below a snippet of the Tesla force field that can be use=
d=20
to shield us from nuclear and biochemical fallout from weapons, and then I=20
have listed the complete email post which discuses the use of Telsa scalar w=
aves=20
used to change weather and to create diseases in whole populations.  I also=20
have listed lastly below an Internet post on solar satellites used to change=
=20
and engineer the weather over any region on Earth and links to the US milita=
ry=20
weather control plans by 2025, Russian Weather Control Energetics, the Unite=
d=20
Nations (UN), & Illuminati's goal to use weather control to remove all=20
civilization from the USA and North America under the UN disguise of Sustain=
ability &=20
Biodiversity, and an article on the Ice Age and the Ocean Conveyer Belt=20
Theory.  =20
Konstantin Meyl has published a book in English called Scalar Waves which is=
=20
only available at the amazon.com website in Germany at http://www.a-zet.de/=20=
,=20
which discusses the math, science, and applications of scalar waves.  I have=
=20
also developed a personal scalar wave jammer and froce field device posted a=
t=20
http://www.rhfweb.com/sjam.html. =20
Tesla Force Field:=20
http://www.freedomdomain.com/weathercontrol/scalarweapon01.html=20
--TERMINAL ABM SYSTEM--=20
      Very neat things can be done if one "nests" several Tesla shields --=20
say three or four -- concentrically, one inside the other. In that case even=
=20
the nuclear radiation (such as gamma rays) from a defense-suppressive high=20
altitude nuclear burst can be handled.=20
     For example, suppose three such concentric shields are placed over a=20
large vital area. Further, suppose a high altitude nuclear burst is placed=20
above the outer shield. Gamma radiation almost instantly strikes the plasma=20
in the outer shell, where it is absorbed, scattered, and re-radiated at a=20
lower temperature. (That after all is what plasmas do.) Inside the first=20
shell, the scattered radiation is now in the x-ray and ultra violet region.=20
Let us track the most lethal component, the x-rays.=20
     The scattered x-rays then strike the second plasma shell, and are=20
absorbed scattered and re-radiated at a lower temperature. Inside the second=
=20
shell the scattered radiation is now in the visible and infrared region, wit=
h=20
a little ultraviolet.=20
     This optical radiation in turn strikes the third plasma shell, and is=20
absorbed scattered and re-radiated at still lower temperature. Inside the=20
third shell, most of the energy is now in the form of radio frequency (RF)=20
energy, with a little IR and visible band spectral energy content.=20
     At this point, ordinary electromagnetic interference (EMI) shielding of=
=20
electronic equipment on the ground inside the third shield can take care of=20
any RF interference resulting from the emergent RF noise.=20
     As can be seen, three shells are sufficient to convert the gamma and=20
x-ray radiation (and ultraviolet and infrared) mostly to harmless RF energy=20
before all three shells are penetrated. Thus the tactic of deliberate defens=
e=20
suppression by a preliminary high altitude nuclear burst can be countered by=
=20
multiple Tesla shields.=20
     In addition, of course, any ordinary vehicles penetrating all three=20
shields are exposed to successive violent EMP's and are almost certainly=20
electrically dudded. The vehicles are also subjected to multiple periods of=20
intense heating, so combustibles, fuels, explosives, and ablatives are=20
destroyed. In addition, metal structures may be melted or vaporized.=20
     Think of it this way: anything which hits one of these Tesla shields=20
goes phhht! Just like a bug hitting an electrified bugkiller screen.=20
     For years passing ships have observed and reported such multiple-shield=
=20
"light phenomena" over remote regions of the ocean. U.S. intelligence has=20
routinely not paid any heed to "lights at night" over remote ocean areas, an=
d=20
so Soviet tests in this manner have remained relatively unnoticed by=20
officialdom...=20

Further Information on Tesla Weather Control Technologies are posted at the=20
link Below:
http://www.freedomdomain.com/weathercontrol/scalarweapon01.html=20
http://www.borderlands.com/spacewea.htm
Space Based Weather Control:=20
The "Thunderstorm Solar Power Satellite"



In a recent correspondence with Dr. Bernard Eastlund (see below), it appears=
=20
that ground based weather control via electromagnetic means have been=20
surpassed by the newer technology of Solar Power Satellite based systems whi=
ch have=20
been designed for a power output of 1000 Megawatts. Even though this Solar P=
ower=20
Satellite based system is speculative at best, I think we can all see where=20
this is going.
HAARP, as we have stated, does not appear to possess the ability to alter th=
e=20
weather over disparate geographic locations, and has only a minute ability t=
o=20
do anything locally =E2=80=94 remember, radiation from the Sun strikes the a=
tmosphere=20
with a power density of 1370 Watts per meter2 or 0.137 Watts per cm2, a valu=
e=20
known as the "solar constant." The intensity of HAARP's HF signal in the=20
ionosphere will be less than 3 microwatts per cm2 at its full power potentia=
l of=20
3.6 Megawatts =E2=80=94 tens of thousands of times less than the Sun's natur=
al=20
electromagnetic radiation reaching the earth. But, these new satellite syste=
ms, if=20
indeed they can generate the power proposed, certainly would solve that prob=
lem.=20
With a fleet of these satellites, it could be conceivable that the weather=20
over any geographic location could be modified at will =E2=80=93 provided th=
e system=20
actually works. Borderlands published a book related to this in 1995 called=20
Secrets of Cold War Technology: Project HAARP and Beyond.
Borderland Sciences has over the years done an extensive observation of the=20
effects of solar activity on the general population with respect to temperme=
nt=20
modification. It has been empirically confirmed that SIDs (Sudden Ionospheri=
c=20
Disturbances), and Solar Flux Density increases have the particular effect o=
f=20
mania on the general populace, while low periods tend to display a tendency=20
toward depression.
We wonder what effects these new high power satellite systems could have on=20
prevailing psychological states. Although it does not appear intentional, th=
e=20
ability to alter the moods of populations is one probable side effect of suc=
h a=20
modification system. While this is not "mind control" per se, it does open u=
p=20
some interesting possibilities. It remains to be seen what the true potentia=
l=20
of these satellites will be.
Michael Theroux
US Military Weather Control by 2025
http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm
Russian Weather Control Energetics:
http://twm.co.nz/Beard_wmod.htm
Illuminati's goel to use weather control to remove all civilization from the=
=20
USA and North America.=20
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1695.cfm
The Ice Age and the Ocean Conveyer Belt Theory
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=3D17711
Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.htm=
l
President Thomas D. Clark,=20
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page:=20
www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

-------------------------------1078262651
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DUTF-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>I have posted below emails on Tesla force fields and weather control idea=
s that may be used to prevent the Illuminati and the United Nations&nbsp;fro=
m destroying North America with weather control plans.&nbsp; A small ice age=
 can be created in North America by modifying the ocean heat conveyer belt a=
 few degrees and the wobble of the Earth with present day satellite and Eart=
h based weather control technologies.=20
<P>The emails posted below explain how to use Tesla electroscalar waves, pho=
tonic&nbsp;and neutrino&nbsp;energies to change weather and create diseases=20=
in populations by placing the disease pattern in photons; and how to jam wea=
ther control devices and nuclear radiation with a series of&nbsp;Tesla scala=
r wave force fields.=20
<P>I have first listed below&nbsp;a snippet of the Tesla force field&nbsp;th=
at can be used&nbsp;to shield us from nuclear and biochemical fallout&nbsp;f=
rom weapons, and then I have listed the complete email post which discuses t=
he use of Telsa scalar waves used to change weather and to create diseases i=
n whole populations.&nbsp; I also have listed lastly below an Internet post=20=
on solar satellites used to change and engineer&nbsp;the weather over any re=
gion on Earth and links to the US military weather control plans by 2025, Ru=
ssian Weather Control Energetics, the United Nations (UN), &amp; Illuminati'=
s goal to use weather control to remove all civilization from the USA and No=
rth America under the UN disguise of Sustainability &amp; Biodiversity, and=20=
an article on the Ice Age and the Ocean Conveyer Belt Theory.&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<P>Konstantin Meyl has published a book in English&nbsp;called Scalar Waves=20=
which is only available at the amazon.com website in Germany at <A title=3Dh=
ttp://www.a-zet.de/ href=3D"http://www.a-zet.de/"><STRONG><FONT face=3DVerda=
na>http://www.a-zet.de/</FONT></STRONG></A><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;</FONT>,=
 which discusses the math, science, and applications of scalar waves.&nbsp;=20=
I have also developed a personal scalar wave jammer and froce field device p=
osted at&nbsp;<A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/sjam.html href=3D"http://www.=
rhfweb.com/sjam.html">http://www.rhfweb.com/sjam.html</A>.&nbsp; </P></DIV>
<P>Tesla Force Field:=20
<P><A title=3Dhttp://www.freedomdomain.com/weathercontrol/scalarweapon01.htm=
l href=3D"http://www.freedomdomain.com/weathercontrol/scalarweapon01.html">h=
ttp://www.freedomdomain.com/weathercontrol/scalarweapon01.html</A>=20
<P>--TERMINAL ABM SYSTEM--=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Very neat things can be done if one "nests=
" several Tesla shields -- <BR>say three or four -- concentrically, one insi=
de the other. In that case even <BR>the nuclear radiation (such as gamma ray=
s) from a defense-suppressive high <BR>altitude nuclear burst can be handled=
.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For example, suppose three such concentric shiel=
ds are placed over a <BR>large vital area. Further, suppose a high altitude=20=
nuclear burst is placed <BR>above the outer shield. Gamma radiation almost i=
nstantly strikes the plasma <BR>in the outer shell, where it is absorbed, sc=
attered, and re-radiated at a <BR>lower temperature. (That after all is what=
 plasmas do.) Inside the first <BR>shell, the scattered radiation is now in=20=
the x-ray and ultra violet region. <BR>Let us track the most lethal componen=
t, the x-rays.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The scattered x-rays then strike the second plas=
ma shell, and are <BR>absorbed scattered and re-radiated at a lower temperat=
ure. Inside the second <BR>shell the scattered radiation is now in the visib=
le and infrared region, with <BR>a little ultraviolet.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This optical radiation in turn strikes the third=
 plasma shell, and is <BR>absorbed scattered and re-radiated at still lower=20=
temperature. Inside the <BR>third shell, most of the energy is now in the fo=
rm of radio frequency (RF) <BR>energy, with a little IR and visible band spe=
ctral energy content.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; At this point, ordinary electromagnetic interfer=
ence (EMI) shielding of <BR>electronic equipment on the ground inside the th=
ird shield can take care of <BR>any RF interference resulting from the emerg=
ent RF noise.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As can be seen, three shells are sufficient to c=
onvert the gamma and <BR>x-ray radiation (and ultraviolet and infrared) most=
ly to harmless RF energy <BR>before all three shells are penetrated. Thus th=
e tactic of deliberate defense <BR>suppression by a preliminary high altitud=
e nuclear burst can be countered by <BR>multiple Tesla shields.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In addition, of course, any ordinary vehicles pe=
netrating all three <BR>shields are exposed to successive violent EMP's and=20=
are almost certainly <BR>electrically dudded. The vehicles are also subjecte=
d to multiple periods of <BR>intense heating, so combustibles, fuels, explos=
ives, and ablatives are <BR>destroyed. In addition, metal structures may be=20=
melted or vaporized.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Think of it this way: anything which hits one of=
 these Tesla shields <BR>goes phhht! Just like a bug hitting an electrified=20=
bugkiller screen.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For years passing ships have observed and report=
ed such multiple-shield <BR>"light phenomena" over remote regions of the oce=
an. U.S. intelligence has <BR>routinely not paid any heed to "lights at nigh=
t" over remote ocean areas, and <BR>so Soviet tests in this manner have rema=
ined relatively unnoticed by <BR>officialdom... <BR></P>
<P>Further Information on Tesla Weather Control Technologies are posted at t=
he link Below:</P>
<P><A title=3Dhttp://www.freedomdomain.com/weathercontrol/scalarweapon01.htm=
l href=3D"http://www.freedomdomain.com/weathercontrol/scalarweapon01.html">h=
ttp://www.freedomdomain.com/weathercontrol/scalarweapon01.html</A> </P>
<P><A title=3Dhttp://www.borderlands.com/spacewea.htm href=3D"http://www.bor=
derlands.com/spacewea.htm">http://www.borderlands.com/spacewea.htm</A></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#dd1735 size=3D6><STRONG>Space Based Weather C=
ontrol: <BR></STRONG></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D6><STR=
ONG>The</STRONG></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080><STRONG> </STRONG>=
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D6><STRONG>"Thunderstorm Sol=
ar Power Satellite"</STRONG></FONT></P>
<HR>

<P>In a recent correspondence with Dr. Bernard Eastlund (see below), it appe=
ars that ground based weather control via electromagnetic means have been su=
rpassed by the newer technology of Solar Power Satellite based systems which=
 have been designed for a power output of 1000 Megawatts. Even though this S=
olar Power Satellite based system is speculative at best, I think we can all=
 see where this is going.</P>
<P>HAARP, as we have stated, does not appear to possess the ability to alter=
 the weather over disparate geographic locations, and has only a minute abil=
ity to do anything locally =E2=80=94 remember, radiation from the Sun strike=
s the atmosphere with a power density of 1370 Watts per meter<SUP>2</SUP> or=
 0.137 Watts per cm<SUP>2</SUP>, a value known as the "solar constant." The=20=
intensity of HAARP's HF signal in the ionosphere will be less than 3 microwa=
tts per cm<SUP>2 </SUP>at its full power potential of 3.6 Megawatts =E2=80=
=94 tens of thousands of times less than the Sun's natural electromagnetic r=
adiation reaching the earth. But, these new satellite systems, if indeed the=
y can generate the power proposed, certainly would solve that problem. With=20=
a fleet of these satellites, it could be conceivable that the weather over a=
ny geographic location could be modified at will =E2=80=93 provided the syst=
em actually works. Borderlands published a book related to this in 1995 call=
ed <A title=3Dhttp://borderlands.com/newstuff/Newbooks/newbook.htm#secrets h=
ref=3D"http://borderlands.com/newstuff/Newbooks/newbook.htm#secrets">Secrets=
 of Cold War Technology: Project HAARP and Beyond</A>.</P>
<P>Borderland Sciences has over the years done an extensive observation of t=
he effects of solar activity on the general population with respect to tempe=
rment modification. It has been empirically confirmed that SIDs (Sudden Iono=
spheric Disturbances), and Solar Flux Density increases have the particular=20=
effect of <EM>mania</EM> on the general populace, while low periods tend to=20=
display a tendency toward <EM>depression</EM>.</P>
<P>We wonder what effects these new high power satellite systems could have=20=
on prevailing psychological states. Although it does not appear intentional,=
 the ability to alter the moods of populations is one probable side effect o=
f such a modification system. While this is not "mind control" per se, it do=
es open up some interesting possibilities. It remains to be seen what the tr=
ue potential of these satellites will be.</P>
<P><A title=3Dmailto:director borderlands.com href=3D"mailto:director@border=
lands.com">Michael Theroux</A></P>
<P>US Military Weather Control by 2025</P>
<P><A title=3Dhttp://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm href=
=3D"http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm">http://www.au.a=
f.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm</A></P>
<P>Russian Weather Control Energetics:</P>
<P><A title=3Dhttp://twm.co.nz/Beard_wmod.htm href=3D"http://twm.co.nz/Beard=
_wmod.htm">http://twm.co.nz/Beard_wmod.htm</A></P>
<P>Illuminati's goel to use weather control to remove all civilization from=20=
the USA and North America.&nbsp;</P>
<P><A title=3Dhttp://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1695.cfm href=3D"http://www.c=
uttingedge.org/news/n1695.cfm">http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1695.cfm</A>=
</P>
<P>The Ice Age and the Ocean Conveyer Belt Theory</P>
<P><A title=3Dhttp://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=3D17711 href=3D"htt=
p://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=3D17711">http://www.alternet.org/sto=
ry.html?StoryID=3D17711</A></P>
<P><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10">B=
aron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http://www.=
rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhf=
web.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html">www.rhf=
web.com\emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark, <BR>Email: <A title=
=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailf=
orm.html">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A>, Personal Web Page: <A title=3Dh=
ttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">www.rh=
fweb.com\personal</A><BR>New Age Production's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://www.rh=
fweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">www.rhfweb.com\newage<=
/A><BR>Star Haven Community Services, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/sh=
 href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh</A><BR>Radiation Health=
 Foundation Trust at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://www.rh=
fweb.com/">www.rhfweb.com</A><BR></FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1078262651--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 13:34:57 2004
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From: alexander hollins <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
Subject: color wheel
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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btw, for those making color landscapes of mars, heres
the actual color wheel

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/images/sundial1_250.jpg

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 13:47:07 2004
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Rover news conf.: goofy scientists
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These guys ought to be in politics. In response to questions about the apparent mud/brine effect, one guy - think it was the main geologist, appeared not to understand the question, or even which planet the question was being asked about! Even after it was repeated and rephrased he answered as if a completely different question had been asked. Don't talk about brine on the surface, let alone threads, structures, etc. 

I really can't figure it out. As smart as I know these people are *in some areas* I think they may just be stump stupid on some common sense things. It's easy to see conspiracy, but you know the saying about conspiracy vs. human stupidity, selfishness, etc. It's so frustrating because they achieved so much in designing and successfully deploying these marvelous machines to another planet, yet they dumb up when it comes to interpreting, or disseminating the results. I don't know if it's mud, mold, lichens, bacteria, salts & crystals, or what, but it's all over the place, and if the question come up, they'll blow it off and act as though someone asked if there are lakes of pesto sauce on Venus or something. That's bizarre. The Weekly World News doesn't look like such a bad source after all by comparison.

- Rick

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From: "SnowDog" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
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Subject: Re: color wheel
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> btw, for those making color landscapes of mars, heres
> the actual color wheel
>
> http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/images/sundial1_250.jpg

Good picture, but unfortunately, you can't use the color wheel to help you
balance other pictures taken with the PanCam. Picture sets which include the
color wheel are already balanced for color using filters L4, L5 and L6.
Images of the landscape are balanced using some other method -- probably to
make the images much brighter than they would be if balanced for color. To
re-balance the images of the landscape, do this:

1) Find a good spot of red soil in your picture.

2) Using images from L4, L5, and (L6 or L7), for red, green, and blue
respectively, balance the red soil so that the intensity of the soil is 2 to
2 1/2 times as bright in the L4 image as it is in the (L6 or L7) image.

3) Balance the L5 image so that it is 15% - 20% brighter than the (L6 or L7)
image.

I used the spectra-analysis done on a picture taken by Spirit, on Sol 7, to
come up with these relative values. It works because all the soil is pretty
much the same bright red color. I applied this technique to a picture of the
landscape, (which use to include blue desert varnish), and it looks pretty
similar to other pictures released by NASA.

http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars7.htm

Craig Haynie


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not quite.  the reason the color wheel is on there and
why they snap shots of IT in all the filters is to
allow them to use it to color balance against
atmospheric light conditions.  
and...  color based on an assumption of soil color... 
naw.

im working right now on using channels with rgb set
based on the wavelength of the filter, so that you can
put in all the images, but right now its coming up
muddy.  i think i need to invert the channels before
pasting in, becuase of how ps channels work, but dont
have the time for further experimentation now.
--- SnowDog <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com> wrote:
> > btw, for those making color landscapes of mars,
> heres
> > the actual color wheel
> >
> >
>
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/images/sundial1_250.jpg
> 
> Good picture, but unfortunately, you can't use the
> color wheel to help you
> balance other pictures taken with the PanCam.
> Picture sets which include the
> color wheel are already balanced for color using
> filters L4, L5 and L6.
> Images of the landscape are balanced using some
> other method -- probably to
> make the images much brighter than they would be if
> balanced for color. To
> re-balance the images of the landscape, do this:
> 
> 1) Find a good spot of red soil in your picture.
> 
> 2) Using images from L4, L5, and (L6 or L7), for
> red, green, and blue
> respectively, balance the red soil so that the
> intensity of the soil is 2 to
> 2 1/2 times as bright in the L4 image as it is in
> the (L6 or L7) image.
> 
> 3) Balance the L5 image so that it is 15% - 20%
> brighter than the (L6 or L7)
> image.
> 
> I used the spectra-analysis done on a picture taken
> by Spirit, on Sol 7, to
> come up with these relative values. It works because
> all the soil is pretty
> much the same bright red color. I applied this
> technique to a picture of the
> landscape, (which use to include blue desert
> varnish), and it looks pretty
> similar to other pictures released by NASA.
> 
> http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars7.htm
> 
> Craig Haynie
> 
> 


__________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  2 14:39:21 2004
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Hello!

> not quite.  the reason the color wheel is on there and
> why they snap shots of IT in all the filters is to
> allow them to use it to color balance against
> atmospheric light conditions.
> and...  color based on an assumption of soil color...
> naw.

I just spent a week figuring this out. If you succeed, please let me know
how, because the images of the soil are balanced differently than the images
of the color wheel. In fact, all images with the rover in the foreground are
already balanced for color, while images of the landscape are balanced using
some other algorithm. The only way you're going to get rid of the blue rocks
is to use the spectra-analysis available here,

http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars6.htm

and balance according to the numbers. The problem is that this method will
not work for the other landscape images, unless the same algorithm was
applied to the image. Maybe this is the case. This is the area I'm looking
at next. If I can verify that there are only two algorithms used, then the
spectra-analysis will let me balance all of the landscape images.

On the other hand, if you could find the native files sent by the rover,
then I'm all ears!

> im working right now on using channels with rgb set
> based on the wavelength of the filter, so that you can
> put in all the images, but right now its coming up
> muddy.  i think i need to invert the channels before
> pasting in, becuase of how ps channels work, but dont
> have the time for further experimentation now.

How do you set a photoshop channel to a certain wavelength? This would be
helpful.

Sincerely,

Craig

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Lots of ice fond on Mars
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See:

<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/28may%5Fmarsice.htm>

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Rover news conf.: goofy scientists
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 3/2/04 4:39 PM, "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com> wrote:

> These guys ought to be in politics. In response to questions about the
> apparent mud/brine effect, one guy - think it was the main geologist, appeared
> not to understand the question, or even which planet the question was being
> asked about! Even after it was repeated and rephrased he answered as if a
> completely different question had been asked. Don't talk about brine on the
> surface, let alone threads, structures, etc.
> 
> I really can't figure it out. As smart as I know these people are *in some
> areas* I think they may just be stump stupid on some common sense things. It's
> easy to see conspiracy, but you know the saying about conspiracy vs. human
> stupidity, selfishness, etc. It's so frustrating because they achieved so much
> in designing and successfully deploying these marvelous machines to another
> planet, yet they dumb up when it comes to interpreting, or disseminating the
> results.

Rick,

This is no more remarkable than the astounding stupidity of the reaction to
CF/LENR  and other O/U reports over the past 15 years. It is fully
consistent. I predict this: The NASA people will see increasing evidence for
extant or extinct life -- it will be staring them the face, and STILL they
will act as though the evidence does not exist. After all, have the space
cadets YET discussed the "Dalmatian dunes"? No, of course not! Have they
commented on the parallel, vertex-tied triangles? No!  If you had told me
these things before the CF War, I would not have believed such human
stupidity was possible in science -- surely if large geometric figures were
seen on Mars by our priceless hard-won astronautical voyages, virtually
every effort would be bent toward their analysis! Not so. But now I am a
full believer in its omnipresence of stupidity within science.  Just one
look at any number of recent cover articles of "Discover" and "New
Scientist" with all the dark energy horse crap and ponderings of pre-"Big
Bang" existence is sufficient...


NASA royally screwed itself with its gross mishandling of the Viking life
evidence back in 1976 and thereafter. Now it is doing it again.  It may take
one of Sagan's "Mars mice" running across the damn screen to wake it up.
Like it will take a "car driven up from New Jersey" to convince MIT's
Petrasso of the validity of CF/LENR.

 -Gene Mallove   www.infinite-energy.com



> I don't know if it's mud, mold, lichens, bacteria, salts & crystals,
> or what, but it's all over the place, and if the question come up, they'll
> blow it off and act as though someone asked if there are lakes of pesto sauce
> on Venus or something. That's bizarre. The Weekly World News doesn't look like
> such a bad source after all by comparison.
> 
> - Rick
> 

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Rover news conf.: goofy scientists
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At 11:39 AM 3/2/4, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>These guys ought to be in politics. In response to questions about the
>apparent mud/brine effect, one guy - think it was the main geologist,
>appeared not to understand the question, or even which planet the question
>was being asked about! Even after it was repeated and rephrased he
>answered as if a completely different question had been asked. Don't talk
>about brine on the surface, let alone threads, structures, etc.



Major amounts of ice on Mars just below the surface is very old news:

<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/28may%5Fmarsice.htm>

Methinks there must have been an elephant in the room.  8^)

I suppose hindsight is 20-20, but a soil conductivity testor would have
cost almost nothing to put on the rover, in either dollars or weight.
OTOH, perhaps some people don't want to test for conditions that contradict
their mental models.  The apparent lack of biologists on the rover team is
certainly noteworthy.

An obvious test for surface water is to dig/brush a hole in one of the wet
flat sandy looking areas.

As to the mission, the stated goal was to prove/disprove surface water in
the history of Mars.  Given that Global Surveyor already has shown shallow
subsurface water exists on Mars, this seems at present to be a somewhat
conservative goal.


>
>I really can't figure it out. As smart as I know these people are *in some
>areas* I think they may just be stump stupid on some common sense things.
>It's easy to see conspiracy, but you know the saying about conspiracy vs.
>human stupidity, selfishness, etc. It's so frustrating because they
>achieved so much in designing and successfully deploying these marvelous
>machines to another planet, yet they dumb up when it comes to
>interpreting, or disseminating the results. I don't know if it's mud,
>mold, lichens, bacteria, salts & crystals, or what, but it's all over the
>place, and if the question come up, they'll blow it off and act as though
>someone asked if there are lakes of pesto sauce on Venus or something.
>That's bizarre. The Weekly World News doesn't look like such a bad source
>after all by comparison.
>
>- Rick


Scientific "conservatism"  does seem a bit whacko, especially to lunatic
fringers like me.   8^)    But fortunately, the photos and data seem to
speak volumes, and I am certainly greatful for their rapid dissemination.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  3 04:35:09 2004
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From: "explorecraft" <pariah explorecraft.com>
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Just imagine:
 if the Opportunity crater was, for them,
 a harsh environment, there may be other sites
 where these grapes are larger, and/or more prolific.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2004 March 03 03:32
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Impaled Ball
>
>
> At 12:09 PM 3/2/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >This little clip is from the first PanCam image on sol 37 by
> >Opportunity.  The marble in the center clearly has a stalk extending to
> >the "rock".
>
>
> Excellent example!  There have been other hints of stems on the berries.
> See shadow at lower left
>
>
> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/035/1P131297854ESF
0500P2598
R1M1.HTML <


See possible stem structures in two berries at right of grind photo:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/035/1M131296470EFF0500P2952
M1M1.JPG<

and also in

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/034/1M131212854EFF0500P2959M
>2M1.HTML<


Seems like the stem material, if it exists, may not melt and/or decay as
fast as the overal matrix.

Regards,

Horace Heffner




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  3 04:42:21 2004
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<sympathy mode on>

Where did I see that quote:
 collective intelligence is lowered
 to the average of the room/organization whatever?

Individually very bright,
 these guys are like deer
 trapped in the headlights
 of a bureaucratic freight train.
<The underlings you don't see at the conferences, that is>

Although we give'em 'ell for being part
 of such a monstrously moronic followup
 to a technical masterpiece,
 they need credit for living in a publicity fishbowl.

<sympathy mode 0ff>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2004 March 03 06:52
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Rover news conf.: goofy scientists
>
>
> At 11:39 AM 3/2/4, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> >These guys ought to be in politics. In response to questions about the
> >apparent mud/brine effect, one guy - think it was the main geologist,
> >appeared not to understand the question, or even which planet
> the question
> >was being asked about! Even after it was repeated and rephrased he
> >answered as if a completely different question had been asked. Don't talk
> >about brine on the surface, let alone threads, structures, etc.
>
>
>
> Major amounts of ice on Mars just below the surface is very old news:
>
> <http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/28may%5Fmarsice.htm>
>
> Methinks there must have been an elephant in the room.  8^)
>
> I suppose hindsight is 20-20, but a soil conductivity testor would have
> cost almost nothing to put on the rover, in either dollars or weight.
> OTOH, perhaps some people don't want to test for conditions that
> contradict
> their mental models.  The apparent lack of biologists on the rover team is
> certainly noteworthy.
>
> An obvious test for surface water is to dig/brush a hole in one of the wet
> flat sandy looking areas.
>
> As to the mission, the stated goal was to prove/disprove surface water in
> the history of Mars.  Given that Global Surveyor already has shown shallow
> subsurface water exists on Mars, this seems at present to be a somewhat
> conservative goal.
>
>
> >
> >I really can't figure it out. As smart as I know these people
> are *in some
> >areas* I think they may just be stump stupid on some common sense things.
> >It's easy to see conspiracy, but you know the saying about conspiracy vs.
> >human stupidity, selfishness, etc. It's so frustrating because they
> >achieved so much in designing and successfully deploying these marvelous
> >machines to another planet, yet they dumb up when it comes to
> >interpreting, or disseminating the results. I don't know if it's mud,
> >mold, lichens, bacteria, salts & crystals, or what, but it's all over the
> >place, and if the question come up, they'll blow it off and act as though
> >someone asked if there are lakes of pesto sauce on Venus or something.
> >That's bizarre. The Weekly World News doesn't look like such a bad source
> >after all by comparison.
> >
> >- Rick
>
>
> Scientific "conservatism"  does seem a bit whacko, especially to lunatic
> fringers like me.   8^)    But fortunately, the photos and data seem to
> speak volumes, and I am certainly greatful for their rapid dissemination.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>
>
>

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DO NOT OPEN the .pif file coming from Vortex. 

For that matter, never open an emailed .pif file.

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Where got .pif from Vortex?
 I have not yet seen this...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2004 March 03 22:06
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Virus warning!!
> 
> 
> DO NOT OPEN the .pif file coming from Vortex. 
> 
> For that matter, never open an emailed .pif file.
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  3 07:20:43 2004
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From: alexander hollins <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: color wheel
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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much easier for that method, is to go to the layers
panel on a new image.  to the right of the layers tab
is the channels tab.  Click on it and youll see r b g
and all channels.  Just click on one channel and
paste, and it will paste the image in to just that
channel.  Also, a nice feature is as you change
channels and if you simply copy and paste the seperate
images off the nasa website, it pastes them perfectly
on top of each other, no need to align them yourself. 
also, the particular filters you mention dont
correspond with rgb like that.  2 5 and 7 on L are
pretty close (two of them are dead on, forget which
ones) which is why im trying the more directed
approach by creating channels, so your images are
going to be blue shifted.

--- GDC <GDC GoldDirectory.com> wrote:
> I use photoshop for many of the images I put
> together here:
> 
> http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars1.htm
> 
> The method is to:
> 
> 1) Load 3 images into photoshop from filtered images
> L4, L5, and (L6 or L7)
> 
> 2) Go to Image/Duplicate to create another image of
> the same type, and call
> it whatever you want to call the new file.
> 
> 3) Select the Red Channel, then go to Image/Apply
> Image. And apply the image
> by selecting the image from L4, and by changing the
> 'Blending' method to
> Normal. If the blending method is not changed, then
> the image will come out
> muddy. I'm not sure if this is why your images are
> coming out muddy, but I
> had this problem too, for this reason.
> 
> 4) Do the same for the green and the blue channels.
> 
> This should give you a basic color image.
> 
> Craig
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "alexander hollins"
> <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
> To: "GDC" <GDC golddirectory.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:41 PM
> Subject: Re: color wheel
> 
> 
> > well, what i did was take a program that gave rbg
> > values for any wavelength you might add, and used
> > those to create new channels instead of using rgb
> in
> > photoshop.  unfortunetly, rgb in photoshop
> actually
> > filters as the opposite color.  i tried inverting
> > after adding the layers in, but that didnt work,
> too
> > dark and muddy.  so im working on it.  and yeah, i
> do
> > agree with you, they have messed with brightness,
> but
> > they did so on color wheel too.  i was just saying
> > using the color wheel to practice  to get a feel
> for
> > the colorizing.
> > --- GDC <GDC GoldDirectory.com> wrote:
> > > I think it's a matter of degree. When you've
> > > finished the color wheel, try
> > > doing the same thing with a picture of the
> > > landscape. If you are inclined,
> > > use the first image in this series:
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/spirit_p007.html
> > >
> > > This is the image that they did the spectra
> analysis
> > > on. I think you'll find
> > > that the blue and green images, L7, L6, and L5
> are
> > > FAR brighter than they
> > > should be -- than the similar images of those of
> the
> > > color wheel. You'll
> > > have to use a different technique to balance
> this
> > > image, than you did with
> > > the color wheel.
> > >
> > > Please let me know how it turns out. This is
> > > exciting to me, and something
> > > I've been working on all week.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "alexander hollins"
> > > <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
> > > To: "GDC" <GDC golddirectory.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 22:59
> > > Subject: Re: color wheel
> > >
> > >
> > > > odd, when im taking images of the color wheel
> and
> > > > putting them together, im finding that it
> > > certainly
> > > > ISNT balanced perfectly, and does in fact
> require
> > > a
> > > > little balancing against that other pic i
> linked.
> > > > --- GDC <GDC GoldDirectory.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hello again!
> > > > >
> > > > > Take a look at this spectra-analysis.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars6.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Notice that there are eleven datapoints
> across
> > > the
> > > > > spectrum. Each datapoint
> > > > > references one of the filtered images. The
> first
> > > one
> > > > > is L7, then L6, L5, L4,
> > > > > etc. Notice the intensities of the different
> > > parts
> > > > > of the image through each
> > > > > of these filters, as recorded by the
> > > > > spectra-analysis. These intensities are
> > > > > very different than those in most of the raw
> JPL
> > > > > files -- the files with
> > > > > images of the landscape. [Images of the
> color
> > > wheel
> > > > > are balanced perfectly.]
> > > > > You'll get a lot of blue in your images,
> unless
> > > you
> > > > > cut the intensity of the
> > > > > blue in your images, according to how
> > > > > spectra-analysis tells us it should
> > > > > be.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > >
> > > > > Craig Haynie
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> > > faster
> > > > http://search.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> faster
> > http://search.yahoo.com
> 


__________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  3 07:23:27 2004
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if they ARE concretions, which seems likely, then its
not unheard off.  concretions form by minerals that
precipitate in openings in the rock.  you also get
some minerals precipitating, though not as well and as
dense, in the channels that allowed the water in in
the first place.  
--- Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
> At 12:09 PM 3/2/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >This little clip is from the first PanCam image on
> sol 37 by
> >Opportunity.  The marble in the center clearly has
> a stalk extending to
> >the "rock".
> 
> 
> Excellent example!  There have been other hints of
> stems on the berries.
> See shadow at lower left
> 
> 
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/035/1P131297854ESF0500P2598
> R1M1.HTML <
> 
> 
> See possible stem structures in two berries at right
> of grind photo:
> 
> 
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/035/1M131296470EFF0500P2952
> M1M1.JPG<
> 
> and also in
> 
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/034/1M131212854EFF0500P2959M
> >2M1.HTML<
> 
> 
> Seems like the stem material, if it exists, may not
> melt and/or decay as
> fast as the overal matrix.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 


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aha.  thought so.  thanks, great find.  of course,
that means if we had an earth shot with each filter,
we could use those for calibration to verify the
camera is taking correct colors.
--- GDC <GDC GoldDirectory.com> wrote:
> Hello again!
> 
> This article describes why each image can't be
> calibrated with the color
> wheel.
> 
>
http://www.atsnn.com/NASAIsNotAlteringMarsColors.html?story=30048
> 
> Craig
> 


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Subject: odd triangle circle image times two
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<a
href="http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/037/1P131462702EFF0510P2390L4M1-BR.JPG">
link1 </a>

<a
href="http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/037/1P131473332ESF0510P2532R1M1-BR.JPG">link2
</a>

the same odd looking circle on two faces...   whats
up? 

putting together the images where they have the right
filters on right cam, theres a blue tinge around the
cirlce.  

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Subject: Nice try, NYT, but no cigar!  Sonofusion vs. "Cold fusion"
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/03/science/03FUSI.html?ei=1&en
=56478ce1fabd1918&ex=1079296449&pagewanted=print&position=

March 3, 2004

Experts Say New Desktop Fusion Claims Seem More Credible
By KENNETH CHANG

Scientists are again claiming they have made a Sun in a jar, offering
perhaps a revolutionary energy source, and this time even some
skeptics find the evidence intriguing enough to call for a closer look.

Using ultrasonic vibrations to shake a jar of liquid solvent the size of
a large drink cup, the scientists say, they squeezed tiny gas bubbles in
the liquid so quickly and violently that temperatures reached
millions of degrees and some of the hydrogen atoms in the solvent
molecules fused, producing a flash of light and energy.

"It can do some interesting science stuff as is," said Dr. Richard T.
Lahey, a professor of engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
and an author of a paper describing the findings that will appear in
the journal Physical Review E.

"Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more
exciting," he said.

The experiment could conceivably shrink the science of fusion ‹
slamming hydrogen atoms together, producing heat and light ‹
from giant, expensive reactors to the tabletop.

When this team of researchers made the same claim in an article in
the journal Science two years ago, many scientists reacted with
skepticism, even ridicule. But new experiments, using better
detectors, offer more convincing data that the phenomenon is real.

"We've addressed all the issues and now they all speak for
themselves with far greater intensity than they did before," said Dr.
Rusi P. Taleyarkhan, the scientist who conducted the experiments at
Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee and is a professor of
nuclear engineering at Purdue University.

Skepticism remains, but Dr. Lawrence A. Crum, a professor of
electrical engineering at the University of Washington who was
highly critical of the Science paper, said the new work was "much
better" and deserved attention to determine whether the effect could
be reproduced.

"It's getting to the point where you can't ignore it," Dr. Crum said.

For decades, physicists have dreamed of harnessing the ferocious
alchemy of the Sun as a clean, limitless energy source. Most
experiments have been conducted in giant, expensive reactors using
magnetic fields to confine the ultrahot gases.

In contrast, the new experiment, which cost less than $1 million, uses
the power of sound to create energy comparable to the inside of stars.

To many scientists, however, the phenomenon, nicknamed
sonofusion, bears uncomfortable similarities to "cold fusion," which
has now been discredited.

Sonofusion has already achieved more scientific respectability than
cold fusion ever did, with two articles published in major journals.

And unlike cold fusion, sonofusion is based on known science.
Scientists have long observed a phenomenon known as
sonoluminescence, in which a burst of ultrasound causes a bubble in
a liquid to collapse and emit a flash of light; some have speculated
that the gases trapped in the collapsing bubbles could be heated to
temperatures hot enough for fusion to occur.

Still, controversy enveloped the Science paper two years ago. The
new research by Dr. Taleyarkhan and Dr. Lahey provides a much
clearer picture of neutrons that are ejected when fusion occurs.

Many scientists like Dr. Glenn Young, head of the physics division at
Oak Ridge, said the experiment was solid, but still incomplete.

"Neutrons are slippery little rascals," he said. "They can fool you.
They can bounce and show up around corners you don't expect."

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company



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From: alexander hollins <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rover news conf.: goofy scientists
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I disagree.  What he was saying with that question is
that they don’t know, but HERES how it works on earth.
 The thing to remember is that these are SCIENTISTS. 
You know, the scientific method.  They have tools
beyond the photos we have, and they will not comment
until they are pretty sure.  yes, im sure there are
scientists looking at the threads and matchsticks,
looking for signs of life.  for all we know, they are
silicon sulfur compounds, therefore NOT life as we
know it, but possibly life.  it has to be
investigated.  which would you prefer.  taking a year
to be certain, or a press conference saying "hey we
found life!" and two months later, "uhhh, nevermind"

--- "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
wrote:
> On 3/2/04 4:39 PM, "Rick Monteverde"
> <rick highsurf.com> wrote:
> 
> > These guys ought to be in politics. In response to
> questions about the
> > apparent mud/brine effect, one guy - think it was
> the main geologist, appeared
> > not to understand the question, or even which
> planet the question was being
> > asked about! Even after it was repeated and
> rephrased he answered as if a
> > completely different question had been asked.
> Don't talk about brine on the
> > surface, let alone threads, structures, etc.
> > 
> > I really can't figure it out. As smart as I know
> these people are *in some
> > areas* I think they may just be stump stupid on
> some common sense things. It's
> > easy to see conspiracy, but you know the saying
> about conspiracy vs. human
> > stupidity, selfishness, etc. It's so frustrating
> because they achieved so much
> > in designing and successfully deploying these
> marvelous machines to another
> > planet, yet they dumb up when it comes to
> interpreting, or disseminating the
> > results.
> 
> Rick,
> 
> This is no more remarkable than the astounding
> stupidity of the reaction to
> CF/LENR  and other O/U reports over the past 15
> years. It is fully
> consistent. I predict this: The NASA people will see
> increasing evidence for
> extant or extinct life -- it will be staring them
> the face, and STILL they
> will act as though the evidence does not exist.
> After all, have the space
> cadets YET discussed the "Dalmatian dunes"? No, of
> course not! Have they
> commented on the parallel, vertex-tied triangles?
> No!  If you had told me
> these things before the CF War, I would not have
> believed such human
> stupidity was possible in science -- surely if large
> geometric figures were
> seen on Mars by our priceless hard-won astronautical
> voyages, virtually
> every effort would be bent toward their analysis!
> Not so. But now I am a
> full believer in its omnipresence of stupidity
> within science.  Just one
> look at any number of recent cover articles of
> "Discover" and "New
> Scientist" with all the dark energy horse crap and
> ponderings of pre-"Big
> Bang" existence is sufficient...
> 
> 
> NASA royally screwed itself with its gross
> mishandling of the Viking life
> evidence back in 1976 and thereafter. Now it is
> doing it again.  It may take
> one of Sagan's "Mars mice" running across the damn
> screen to wake it up.
> Like it will take a "car driven up from New Jersey"
> to convince MIT's
> Petrasso of the validity of CF/LENR.
> 
>  -Gene Mallove   www.infinite-energy.com
> 
> 
> 
> > I don't know if it's mud, mold, lichens, bacteria,
> salts & crystals,
> > or what, but it's all over the place, and if the
> question come up, they'll
> > blow it off and act as though someone asked if
> there are lakes of pesto sauce
> > on Venus or something. That's bizarre. The Weekly
> World News doesn't look like
> > such a bad source after all by comparison.
> > 
> > - Rick
> > 
> 


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:)


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At 10:17 PM 3/3/4, explorecraft wrote:
>Where got .pif from Vortex?
> I have not yet seen this...
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, 2004 March 03 22:06
>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Subject: Virus warning!!
>>
>>
>> DO NOT OPEN the .pif file coming from Vortex.
>>
>> For that matter, never open an emailed .pif file.
>>
>>
>>

Your ISP may have a virus filter like mine does?

Here is the header information from the bad message (which shows that the
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Theresa Bourgeois
(518) 276-2840
bourgt rpi.edu
http://www.rpi.edu/web/News/press_releases/2004/lahey.htm

Researchers Report Bubble Fusion Results Replicated

Physical Review E publishes paper on fusion experiment conducted with
upgraded measurement system

TROY, N.Y. — Physical Review E has announced the publication of an article
by a team of researchers from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI), Purdue
University, Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), and the Russian Academy of
Science (RAS) stating that they have replicated and extended previous
experimental results that indicated the occurrence of nuclear fusion using a
novel approach for plasma confinement. This approach, called bubble fusion,
and the new experimental results are being published in an extensively
peer-reviewed article titled “Additional Evidence of Nuclear Emissions
During Acoustic Cavitation,” which is scheduled to be posted on Physical
Review E’s Web site and published in its journal this month.

The research team used a standing ultrasonic wave to help form and then
implode the cavitation bubbles of deuterated acetone vapor. The oscillating
sound waves caused the bubbles to expand and then violently collapse,
creating strong compression shock waves around and inside the bubbles.
Moving at about the speed of sound, the internal shock waves impacted at the
center of the bubbles causing very high compression and accompanying
temperatures of about 100 million K.

These new data were taken with an upgraded instrumentation system that
allowed data acquisition over a much longer time than was possible in the
team’s previous bubble fusion experiments. According to the new data, the
observed neutron emission was several orders of magnitude greater than
background and had extremely high statistical accuracy. Tritium, which also
is produced during the fusion reactions, was measured and the amount
produced was found to be consistent with the observed neutron production
rate.

Earlier test data, which were reported in Science (Vol. 295, March 2002),
indicated that nuclear fusion had occurred, but these data were questioned
because they were taken with less precise instrumentation. “These extensive
new experiments have replicated and extended our earlier results and
hopefully answer all of the previous questions surrounding our discovery,”
said Richard T. Lahey Jr., the Edward E. Hood Professor of Engineering at
Rensselaer and the director of the analytical part of the joint research
project. Other fusion techniques, such as those that use strong magnetic
fields or lasers to contain the plasma, cannot easily achieve the necessary
compression, Lahey said. In the approach to be published in Physical Review
E, spherical compression of the plasma was achieved due to the inertia of
the liquid surrounding the imploding bubbles.

Professor Lahey also explained that, unlike fission reactors, fusion does
not produce a significant amount of radioactive waste products or decay
heat. Tritium gas, a radioactive by-product of deuterium-deuterium bubble
fusion, is actually a part of the fuel, which can be consumed in
deuterium-tritium fusion reactions. Researchers Rusi Taleyarkhan, Colin
West, and Jae-Seon Cho conducted the bubble fusion experiments at ORNL. At
Rensselaer and in Russia, Professors Lahey and Robert I. Nigmatulin
performed the theoretical analysis of the bubble dynamics and predicted the
shock-induced pressures, temperatures, and densities in the imploding vapor
bubbles. Robert Block, professor emeritus of nuclear engineering at
Rensselaer, helped to design, set up, and calibrate a state-of-the-art
neutron and gamma ray detection system for the new experiments.

Special hydrodynamic shock codes have been developed in both Russia and at
Rensselaer to support and interpret the ORNL experiments. These computer
codes indicated that the peak gas temperatures and densities in the ORNL
experiments were sufficiently high to create fusion reactions. Indeed, the
theoretical shock code predictions of deuterium-deuterium (D-D) fusion were
consistent with the ORNL data.

The research team leaders are all well known authorities in the fields of
multiphase flow and heat transfer technology and nuclear engineering.
Taleyarkhan, a fellow of the American Nuclear Society (ANS) and the
program’s director, held the position of Distinguished Scientist at ORNL,
and is currently the Ardent Bement Jr. Professor of Nuclear Engineering at
Purdue University. Lahey is a fellow of both the ANS and the American
Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME), and is a member of the National
Academy of Engineering (NAE). Nigmatulin is a visiting scholar at
Rensselaer, a member of the Russian Duma, and the president of the
Bashkortonstan branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS). Block is a
fellow of the ANS and is the longtime director of the Gaerttner Linear
Accelerator (LINAC) Laboratory at Rensselaer. The bubble fusion research
program was supported by a grant from the Defense Advanced Research Projects
Agency (DARPA).
**********
Purdue News. March 2, 2004
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2004/0400302.Taleyarkhan.fusion.html

Evidence bubbles over to support tabletop nuclear fusion device
WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. – Researchers are reporting new evidence supporting
their earlier discovery of an inexpensive tabletop device that uses sound
waves to produce nuclear fusion reactions. The researchers believe the new
evidence shows that "sonofusion" generates nuclear reactions by creating
tiny bubbles that implode with tremendous force. Nuclear fusion reactors
have historically required large, multibillion-dollar machines, but
sonofusion devices might be built for a fraction of that cost. "What we are
doing, in effect, is producing nuclear emissions in a simple desktop
apparatus," said Rusi Taleyarkhan, the principal investigator and a
professor of nuclear engineering at Purdue University. "That really is the
magnitude of the discovery – the ability to use simple mechanical force for
the first time in history to initiate conditions comparable to the interior
of stars."

The technology might one day, in theory, lead to a new source of clean
energy. It may result in a new class of low-cost, compact detectors for
security applications that use neutrons to probe the contents of suitcases;
devices for research that use neutrons to analyze the molecular structures
of materials; machines that cheaply manufacture new synthetic materials and
efficiently produce tritium, which is used for numerous applications ranging
from medical imaging to watch dials; and a new technique to study various
phenomena in cosmology, including the workings of neutron stars and black
holes. Taleyarkhan led the research team while he was a full-time scientist
at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, and he is now the Arden L. Bement Jr.
Professor of Nuclear Engineering at Purdue.

The new findings are being reported in a paper that will appear this month
in Physical Review E, published by the American Physical Society. The paper
was written by Taleyarkhan; postdoctoral fellow J.S Cho at Oak Ridge
Associated Universities; Colin West, a retired scientist from Oak Ridge;
Richard T. Lahey Jr., the Edward E. Hood Professor of Engineering at
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI); R.C. Nigmatulin, a visiting scholar
at RPI and president of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Bashkortonstan
branch; and Robert C. Block, active professor emeritus in the School of
Engineering at RPI and director of RPI's Gaerttner Linear Accelerator
Laboratory. The discovery was first reported in March 2002 in Science.

Since then the researchers have acquired additional funding from the U.S.
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, purchased more precise
instruments and equipment to collect more accurate data, and successfully
reproduced and improved upon the original experiment, Taleyarkhan said. "A
fair amount of very substantial new work was conducted, " Taleyarkhan said.
"And also, this time around I made a conscious decision to involve as many
individuals as possible – top scientists and physicists from around the
world and experts in neutron science – to come to the lab and review our
procedures and findings before we even submitted the manuscript to a journal
for its own independent peer review."

The device is a clear glass canister about the height of two coffee mugs
stacked on top of one another. Inside the canister is deuterated acetone.
The researchers expose the clear canister of liquid to pulses of neutrons
every five ms, causing tiny cavities to form. At the same time, the liquid
is bombarded with a specific frequency of ultrasound, which causes the
cavities to form into bubbles that are about 60 nm across. The bubbles then
expand to about 6 mm, large enough to be seen with the unaided eye.

"The process is analogous to stretching a slingshot from Earth to the
nearest star, our sun, thereby building up a huge amount of energy when
released," Taleyarkhan said. Within nanoseconds these large bubbles contract
with tremendous force, returning to roughly their original size, and release
flashes of light in a well-known phenomenon known as sonoluminescence.
Because the bubbles grow to such a relatively large size before they
implode, their contraction causes extreme temperatures and pressures
comparable to those found in the interiors of stars. Researches estimate
that temperatures inside the imploding bubbles reach 10E7 C and pressures of
some 10E14 Pa.

At that point, deuterium atoms fuse together, the same way hydrogen atoms
fuse in stars, releasing neutrons and energy in the process. The process
also releases a type of radiation called gamma rays and a radioactive
material called tritium, all of which have been recorded and measured by the
team. In future versions of the experiment, the tritium produced might then
be used as a fuel to drive energy-producing reactions in which it fuses with
deuterium. Whereas conventional nuclear fission reactors produce waste
products that take thousands of years to decay, the waste products from
fusion plants are short-lived, decaying to non-dangerous levels in a decade
or two. The desktop experiment is safe because, although the reactions
generate extremely high pressures and temperatures, those extreme conditions
exist only in small regions of the liquid in the container – within the
collapsing bubbles.

One key to the process is the large difference between the original size of
the bubbles and their expanded size. Going from 60 nm to 6 mm is about
100,000 times larger, compared to the bubbles usually formed in
sonoluminescence, which grow only about 10 times larger before they implode.
"This means you've got about a trillion times more energy potentially
available for compression of the bubbles than you do with conventional
sonoluminescence," Taleyarkhan said. "When the light flashes are emitted,
it's getting extremely hot, and if your liquid has deuterium atoms compared
to ordinary hydrogen atoms, the conditions are hot enough to produce nuclear
fusion."

The ultrasound switches on and off about 20,000 times a second as the liquid
is being bombarded by neutrons. The researchers compared their results using
normal acetone and deuterated acetone, showing no evidence of fusion in the
former. Each five-ms pulse of neutrons is followed by a five-ms gap, during
which time the bubbles implode, release light and emit a surge of about 1
million neutrons per second. In the first experiments, with the less
sophisticated equipment, the team was only able to collect data during a
small portion of the five-ms intervals between neutron pulses. The new
equipment enabled the researchers to see what was happening over the entire
course of the experiment.

The data clearly show surges in neutrons emitted in precise timing with the
light flashes, meaning the neutron emissions are produced by the collapsing
bubbles responsible for the flashes of light, Taleyarkhan said. "We see
neutrons being emitted each time the bubble is imploding with sufficient
violence," Taleyarkhan said. Fusion of deuterium atoms emits neutrons that
fall within a specific energy range of 2.5 MeV or below, which was the level
of energy seen in neutrons produced in the experiment. The production of
tritium also can only be attributed to fusion, and it was never observed in
any of the control experiments in which normal acetone was used, he said.

Whereas data from the previous experiment had roughly a one in 100 chance of
being attributed to some phenomena other than nuclear fusion, the new, more
precise results represent more like a one in a trillion chance of being
wrong, Taleyarkhan said. "There is only one way to produce tritium – through
nuclear processes," he said. The results also agree with mathematical theory
and modeling. Future work will focus on studying ways to scale up the
device, which is needed before it could be used in practical applications,
and creating portable devices that operate without the need for the
expensive equipment now used to bombard the canister with pulses of
neutrons. "That takes it to the next level because then it's a standalone
generator," Taleyarkhan said. "These will be little nuclear reactors by
themselves that are producing neutrons and energy."

Such an advance could lead to the development of extremely accurate portable
detectors that use neutrons for a wide variety of applications. "If you have
a neutron source you can detect virtually anything because neutrons interact
with atomic nuclei in such a way that each material shows a clear-cut
signature," Taleyarkhan said. The technique also might be used to synthesize
materials inexpensively. "For example, carbon is turned into diamond using
extreme heat and temperature over many years. You wouldn't have to wait
years to convert carbon to diamond. In chemistry, most reactions grow
exponentially with temperature. Now we might have a way to synthesize
certain chemicals that were otherwise difficult to do economically. Several
applications in the field of medicine also appear feasible, such as tumor
treatment."

Before such a system could be used as a new energy source, however,
researchers must reach beyond the "break-even" point, in which more energy
is released from the reaction than the amount of energy it takes to drive
the reaction. "We are not yet at break-even," Taleyarkhan said. "That would
be the ultimate. I don't know if it will ever happen, but we are hopeful
that it will and don't see any clear reason why not. In the future we will
attempt to scale up this system and see how far we can go."

Writer: Emil Venere, (765) 494-4709, venere purdue.edu
Sources: Rusi P. Taleyarkhan, (765) 494-0198, rusi purdue.edu
James Riordon, (301) 209-3238, riordon aps.org
Theresa Bourgeois, RPI director of media relations, (518) 276-2840,
bourgt rpi.edu
Purdue News Service: (765) 494-2096; purduenews purdue.edu

ABSTRACT

Additional Evidence of nuclear emissions during acoustic cavitation

R.P. Taleyarkhan1, J.S. Cho2, C.D. West3, R. T. Lahey3, Jr., R.I.
Nigmatulin4, and R.C. Block3

1: Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana 47907, 2:Oak Ridge Associated
Universities, Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37830, 3: : Rensselaer Polytechnic
Institute, Troy, New York 12180,
4Russian Academy of Sciences, 6 Karl Marx Street, Ufa 450000, Russia

Time spectra of neutron and sonoluminescence emissions were measured in
cavitation experiments with chilled deuterated acetone. Statistically
significant neutron and gamma ray emissions were measured with a calibrated
liquid-scintillation detector, and sonoluminescence emissions were measured
with a photomultiplier tube. The neutron emission energy corresponded to
<2.5 MeV and had an emission rate of up to ~4X10E5 n/s. Measurements of
tritium production were also performed and these data implied a neutron
emission rate due to D-D fusion which agreed with what was measured. In
contrast, control experiments using normal acetone did not result in
statistically significant tritium activity, or neutron or gamma ray
emissions.

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Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:04:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Rover news conf.: goofy scientists
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 3/3/04 11:25 AM, "alexander hollins" <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com> wrote:

> I disagree.  What he was saying with that question is
> that they don’t know, but HERES how it works on earth.
> The thing to remember is that these are SCIENTISTS.
> You know, the scientific method.  They have tools
> beyond the photos we have, and they will not comment
> until they are pretty sure.  yes, im sure there are
> scientists looking at the threads and matchsticks,
> looking for signs of life.  for all we know, they are
> silicon sulfur compounds, therefore NOT life as we
> know it, but possibly life.  it has to be
> investigated.  which would you prefer.  taking a year
> to be certain, or a press conference saying "hey we
> found life!" and two months later, "uhhh, nevermind"

NEITHER!  They should say NOW, "These odd looking things are being
investigated for possible connection to life processes.  We see threads, we
see odd looking "growths," etc. -- which could be ordinary mineral
processes, but it is too early to have any convincing proof that these are
life forms or life-form related."

As to the triangles -- it borders on scientific malfeasance NOT to have
already addressed these in a major way. Ditto for the "Dalmatian dunes."

 - Gene Mallove -- www.infinite-energy.com


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>"What we are doing, in effect, is producing nuclear emissions in a simple 
>desktop apparatus"

Imagine that.  Golly.  What next?  Perhaps even cold fusion?

Thanks for watching the skies Gene!




Steve 

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Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:46:30 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Nice try, NYT, but no cigar!  Sonofusion vs. "Cold fusion"
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Thanks for the heads up Gene. It is a waste of time writing to these 
people, and it is difficult to know what to say. I suppose Mr. Chang must 
be at least partially aware of the facts, since he knows how to use Google. 
But where does that leave us? What can I say? "Either you are monumentally 
lazy, or you are a liar." There is no point to saying that. I bit my tongue 
and wrote the shortest message I could think of to the Editors nytimes.com.

- Jed


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Kenneth Chang writes:

"To many scientists, however, the phenomenon, nicknamed sonofusion, bears 
uncomfortable similarities to "cold fusion," which has now been 
discredited. . . . Sonofusion has already achieved more scientific 
respectability than cold fusion ever did, with two articles published in 
major journals."

Thousands of peer reviewed papers and scientific articles describing 
positive cold fusion have been published, some of them in the world's top 
journals of chemistry and physics, such as the Japanese Journal of Applied 
Physics. Our web site includes a bibliography of over 3,000 papers on cold 
fusion, and the full text of 300 papers. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/

Sincerely,

Jed Rothwell
Librarian, LENR-CANR.org
1954 Airport Road
Suite 204
Chamblee, GA 30341

770-451-9890


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  3 14:55:49 2004
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I wrote:

"I bit my tongue and wrote the shortest message I could think of to the 
Editors nytimes.com"

No, I didn't. I wrote to: <mailto:letters nytimes.com>letters@nytimes.com, 
and that is the right address. I wish I had an address for this twit Mr. 
Chang. But he wouldn't listen, anyway.

- Jed


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Jed,

The Times now has a Public Editor to handle just such material.  
public nytimes.com

Mark


>From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: Should be: letters nytimes.com
>Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:49:20 -0500
>
>I wrote:
>
>"I bit my tongue and wrote the shortest message I could think of to the 
>Editors nytimes.com"
>
>No, I didn't. I wrote to: <mailto:letters nytimes.com>letters@nytimes.com, 
>and that is the right address. I wish I had an address for this twit Mr. 
>Chang. But he wouldn't listen, anyway.
>
>- Jed
>
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  3 18:51:24 2004
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From: "explorecraft" <pariah explorecraft.com>
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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:48:01 +0700
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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And others see this as well:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=36134&page=1

nice foto, copy attached

Maybe grapes is a bad analogy

More closely related to Mistletoe ?

examples:
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/HTML/T2828.HTM

parasitic,
 and could have had seeds dusted here by
 impact ejecta.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2004 March 03 03:32
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Impaled Ball
>
>
> At 12:09 PM 3/2/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >This little clip is from the first PanCam image on sol 37 by
> >Opportunity.  The marble in the center clearly has a stalk extending to
> >the "rock".
>
>
> Excellent example!  There have been other hints of stems on the berries.
> See shadow at lower left
>
>
> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/035/1P131297854ESF
0500P2598
R1M1.HTML <


See possible stem structures in two berries at right of grind photo:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/035/1M131296470EFF0500P2952
M1M1.JPG<

and also in

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/034/1M131212854EFF0500P2959M
>2M1.HTML<


Seems like the stem material, if it exists, may not melt and/or decay as
fast as the overal matrix.

Regards,

Horace Heffner




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar  3 21:32:12 2004
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Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:31:48 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Easy Photoshop Mars color fix
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After compositing a filter<L4-L5-L6> image set by "applying image" to the three color channels, I create a new layer (not channel - layer - go to layers palette) above the background layer, and set the foreground color to (HSV) 32,87,100 - a nice bright orange. Then I fill the new layer with this color at 30% opacity. Voila - close to the NASA images. If you try this, watch the sky as you do the fill, or click the eye beside the orange layer to toggle back and forth after you've filled it. The sky comes up about like the NASA color press images, the berries at Meridiani or the lavas at Gusev go grey, or slightly bluish-grey. I also tried it on the color disc images with 4-5-6 filters, and the orange wash makes the gold frame and the sky reflectors look right too, with the white area a light orangish cream color, similar to the sky images. I assume it would pick up that tone form the sky light.

That lava might want to be slightly bluish. Rocks very similar to the described composition are common here (Hawaii), and some are a bit bluish. It's usually the denser volcanic dyke material that gets the bluish tone.

- Rick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  4 01:09:12 2004
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From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Taleyarkhan wins!
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:59:54 +0200
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Finally sonofusion in mainstream!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040303080222.htm
"Evidence Bubbles Over To Support Tabletop Nuclear Fusion Device"

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2004/0400302.Taleyarkhan.fusion.html

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  4 02:34:35 2004
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Subject: More Information on the PanCam
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I found more information on the PanCam. 1) Exposure times on the PanCam have
been optimized for good color through filters in the visual range. 2) The
PanCam enhances each and every image for a maximum signal/noise ratio. With
images taken with the rover in the foreground, there is inevitably something
bright and shiny, or white, in the image which prevents much modification by
the PanCam, before transmission. Therefore, pictures of the rover, and the
color wheel come out looking good, with no modification. When the PanCam
images something in the environment, the picture is typically dark, and
images in the blue filter are the darkest, so these images are enhanced the
most. Therefore things come out with a strong blue bias. So the color
balance is being seriously altered by the PanCam before transmission by the
rover. Why? I don't know since the images are compressed before transmission
these days. What I need now is to learn how to find out how to determine the
calibration factor on the images. There is no correlation that can be
applied from one image to another as one might expect. The color wheel is
useless without knowing the calibration factor for each image.

Also, images are being calibrated for white light these days. Mars still
looks quite red, but there is more evidence now that the images modified by
the Viking team were modified to be way too red, and may have even have had
blue skies in some of them. New studies include information from the
Pathfinder solar cells which indicate no loss of power that would be
expected if the sky were tainted red. Also, the Hubble has done some work
imaging Mars and the evidence indicates a minimal reddish tint to the
atmosphere.

Craig Haynie


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  4 05:53:20 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Impaled Ball
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At 9:48 AM 3/4/4, explorecraft wrote:
>And others see this as well:
>
>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=36134&page=1
>
>nice foto, copy attached
>
>Maybe grapes is a bad analogy
>
>More closely related to Mistletoe ?

Mistletoe is a fairly highly evolved plant.  It requires a host to get its
nutrient.  Lichen, on the other hand is a symbiotic species, a mixture of
fungus plus one celled photosynthesisers or nitrogen fixers that the fungus
"farms".  The fungus provides a protective fibrous matrix, the one celled
food producers provide the nutrients.   It is self-suffient.  It is also so
low on the evolutionary scale that it might have evolved on Mars itself.
It is also possible that fungal spores and bacteria came from earth and
then completed the final evolutionary step of combining into a single
symbiotic lichen-like species on Mars.


>
>examples:
>http://www.bioimages.org.uk/HTML/T2828.HTM
>
>parasitic,
> and could have had seeds dusted here by
> impact ejecta.


The Mistletoe fruit is certainly very similar to various lichen fruiting bodies.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  4 07:23:01 2004
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Cc: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Worm sound
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Horace's lichen and an earlier message from Fred Sparber raised a thought about other potential evidence which could be available for life on Mars.

Say there is lots of lichen-like plant material there. Say this stuff serves as the food source for higher forms of life. Say that the more mobile life-form burrows underground where sonic forms of communication are possible (the Mars' atmosphere is less than 1% as dense as ours, so sound doesn't travel very well.)... anyway, you see where I am going with this...

The original Mars Microphone instrument was lost in December 1999 when contact with the Mars Polar Lander was never regained after its scheduled touchdown. From goggling the net, it doesn't seem like the Rover has one available. Thus, there is apparently no sound data available from the Martian surface... has anyone seen sound data from Rover?

Anyway, a new version of the Mars Microphone is scheduled to fly on the French NetLander mission in 2007. Check the current status of the Mars Microphone at this site.

http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/marsmic/sound.html


Frederick Sparber writes,

> "Pinkie-size marine crustaceans whose snappy noisemaking has already captivated scientists also stage some flashy pyrotechnics, researchers now find. While earlier experiments had shown that so-called snapping shrimp generate imploding air bubbles  that make loud popping sounds, a new study reveals that those collapsing bubbles emit flashes of light and may flare as hot as the sun's surface."  -Science News Online, Oct. 6, 2001
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  4 07:54:53 2004
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The circles look to me like they were made by the abrasion tool.  Since the
debris is sensitive to different colors, the material below the surface must
be different.  I would hope that the spectrum is matched against a earth
spectrum to tell us what that material is, but maybe someone on here has the
equipment to diagnose that and can feed us the answers.

Bob


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alexander hollins" <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 8:04 AM
Subject: odd triangle circle image times two


> <a
>
href="http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/037/1P131462702EFF0510P
2390L4M1-BR.JPG">
> link1 </a>
>
> <a
>
href="http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/037/1P131473332ESF0510P
2532R1M1-BR.JPG">link2
> </a>
>
> the same odd looking circle on two faces...   whats
> up?
>
> putting together the images where they have the right
> filters on right cam, theres a blue tinge around the
> cirlce.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  4 08:29:41 2004
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The latest publicity on sonofusion is very encouraging.
I would suggest it lends support to the view that
sonofusion and "cold fusion" are simply two sides of 
the same coin.

With deuterated acetone cavitation is taking place in a
material with a relatively low bulk modulus. In the 
case of palladium and similar metals it is taking place 
in materials with modulii an order of magnitude higher. 

Now since - 

"The researchers believe the new evidence shows that 
'sonofusion' generates nuclear reactions by creating 
tiny bubbles that implode with tremendous force."

 - it is not unreasonable to suppose that the collapse of
internal high pF cavities in metals will generate forces
which are an order of magnitude higher.

It is said that seeing is believing. What better evidence
of an implosion could be asked for than the illustration
on the front cover of Mizuno's book, "Nuclear Transmutation,
The reality of Cold fusion," translated by Jed.

This interpretation has been pointed out before by two
contributors to Vortex and so far has not been gainsaid
by anyone. Perhaps this is because Vortexians have 
frequent baths and recognise a Vortex when they see one.  8-)


Now cavitation in metals takes place under certain optimum
conditions. Very ductile metals such as aluminium do not
cavitate in tension, neither do brittle metals such as cast 
iron. There would seem to be a certain optimum structure of 
a metal (and a liquid for that matter) which maximizes the 
degree of cavitation under stress. 

Since mild steel is perhaps the archetypal example of 
metallic cavitation it may be that its stress-strain 
curve with the characteristic yield plateau is the 
kind of discontinuity in hierarchical structure one 
should be looking for.

Frank Grimer




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hamdix iris.com.tr wrote:

>Finally sonofusion in mainstream!
>
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040303080222.htm
>"Evidence Bubbles Over To Support Tabletop Nuclear Fusion Device"
>
>http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2004/0400302.Taleyarkhan.fusion.html
>

If we're lucky, they will continue to argue about where to build the 
ITER until sonofusion advances enough to eliminate magnetic containment.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar  4 09:57:48 2004
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From: alexander hollins <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: More Information on the PanCam
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gracias.  i may have a way to get that info.  let me
call in a few favors.
--- SnowDog <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com> wrote:
> I found more information on the PanCam. 1) Exposure
> times on the PanCam have
> been optimized for good color through filters in the
> visual range. 2) The
> PanCam enhances each and every image for a maximum
> signal/noise ratio. With
> images taken with the rover in the foreground, there
> is inevitably something
> bright and shiny, or white, in the image which
> prevents much modification by
> the PanCam, before transmission. Therefore, pictures
> of the rover, and the
> color wheel come out looking good, with no
> modification. When the PanCam
> images something in the environment, the picture is
> typically dark, and
> images in the blue filter are the darkest, so these
> images are enhanced the
> most. Therefore things come out with a strong blue
> bias. So the color
> balance is being seriously altered by the PanCam
> before transmission by the
> rover. Why? I don't know since the images are
> compressed before transmission
> these days. What I need now is to learn how to find
> out how to determine the
> calibration factor on the images. There is no
> correlation that can be
> applied from one image to another as one might
> expect. The color wheel is
> useless without knowing the calibration factor for
> each image.
> 
> Also, images are being calibrated for white light
> these days. Mars still
> looks quite red, but there is more evidence now that
> the images modified by
> the Viking team were modified to be way too red, and
> may have even have had
> blue skies in some of them. New studies include
> information from the
> Pathfinder solar cells which indicate no loss of
> power that would be
> expected if the sky were tainted red. Also, the
> Hubble has done some work
> imaging Mars and the evidence indicates a minimal
> reddish tint to the
> atmosphere.
> 
> Craig Haynie
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
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Subject: Rover track drains
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I wrote earlier: "An obvious test for surface water is to dig/brush a hole
in one of the wet flat sandy looking areas."

The effect of this would not be to produce a puddle, as I was originally
thinking, but rather to produce a drain hole.  By breaking the waterproof
surface, a pathway would be established to the higly absorbent layer
beneath.  A water or brine puddle could only exist on the surface because
the surface is waterproof, or merely frozen.

In effect, the rover wheels provide a surface puncturing mechanism.  They
not only break the surface, but crunch it up and comapct it into tracks.
The compacted track material appears to be very absorbent.

Toggeling between Sol 37 pancam views:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/037/1P131475626EFF0510P2534
L4M1.JPG<

and:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/037/1P131475674EFF0510P2534
L5M1.JPG<

shows what appears to be water moving into a rover track, which acts like
drain.



An earlier view exists, 13:32:40 Sol 36, but the track is already in place
and the vicinity unfortunately already looks pretty well drained:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/036/1N131386579EFF0510P1937R
>0M1.JPG<

There is nothing definitive that I have seen so far.  Once again, the above
apparent water flow might be merely an illusion due to use of differing
filters.  It is really hard to tell if some areas are standing water or
merely fine dust deposits.

Definitive proof would consist of finding a "before" photo with no rover
track and an "after" photo of a rover track through a wet looking
puddle-like formation. If the after photo shows the swamp drained, then
that is a pretty good indicator of surface water/brine.  The only other
alternative would be a that the dust is in a nearly liquid form, but that
is not very reasonable because there is no osmotic effect to account for
the dust being sponged up by the rover track.

However, despite lack of definitve proof, it is tantalizing if you look
very carefully at:
 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/037/1P131475626EFF0510P2534
L4M1.JPG<

and:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/037/1P131475674EFF0510P2534
L5M1.JPG<

while rapidly toggeling them.  You can see that possibly the top most track
tread indentation, a very narrow trough, may have water, or at least a wet
area, visible in it for a short length, the water appearing to flow right
to left.  The subject area is in the rightmost portion of the trough.  It
looks like there is a tiny grain just at the trough entrance that moves a
fraction of a mm into the trough in the 48 second time frame between the
two photos.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Spark Machining vs Sonofusion?
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:23:46 -0600
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I wonder, what if a Deuterated Oil was used under a high pressure of D2, say 200 ATM
or more?

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~en9smd/spark.htm


"Electric Discharge Machining (EDM) is a metal removal process where two electrodes
are
used to produce a spark. The anode (positive electrode) is the Workpiece itself and
the cathode (negative electrode) is the tool, shaped with the inverse of the detail
required. The two electrodes never actually come in contact and a small gap is
maintained between them at all times by computer control. The two electrodes are
submerged in a dielectric fluid, which allows a path for the electric discharge to be
made, cools the tool and workpiece and removes any waste products. The resistance of
the dielectric fluid is crucial in producing a good surface finish since it controls
the frequency of discharge."

"The discharges are produced by a D.C. power supply, which is connected to the two
electrodes and travel through the dielectric fluid ionising it. Thermal energy is
produced in the form of localised heat and the temperature reaches appproximately
12000°C, which is sufficient to melt and vaporise the material. Hundreds of thousands
of discharges occur each second, each only the length of the diameter of a hair and
the area around the tool is gradually eroded. Of course, the tool is also eroded like
the workpiece as tool material is also subjected to the intense heating. Tool wear is
measured as the ratio of workpiece material removed to tool material removed and this
can vary greatly depending on tool and workpiece materials used - from about 1 to
100."

Regards,

Frederick


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Subject: Vugs
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GlacierI am not seeing vugs with crystals that I can identify.  I see =
dust particle or something like sand.  Is sand the residue of quartz =
crystals what is meant or is their something else?  It must be my tired =
old eyes.

Bob Brady


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Glacier</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	MARGIN-TOP: 20px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 50px; COLOR: #006666; =
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
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<DIV>I am not seeing vugs with crystals that I can identify.&nbsp; I see =
dust=20
particle or something like sand.&nbsp; Is sand the residue of quartz =
crystals=20
what is meant or is their something else?&nbsp; It must be my tired old=20
eyes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Bob Brady</DIV>
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Time to anti up folks.  :-)

Moderator:  billb eskimo.com
            William J. Beaty
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Regards,

Frederick



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Subject: Unusual Markings
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Glacier
The picture from Guadalupe has several markings in it that look similar =
to the picture below.  The oval area is not as deep and is not exactly =
oval.
The black areas are deeper at the ends and less deep at the =
intersection.  Just ahead, in the valley of the "Y" there is a slight =
mound.  In the Guadalupe picture from Opportunity, I count three full =
images and several partials.  This picture is featured today on the JPL =
site, =
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/20040302a.html =
where it describes these marks as vugs, which were once filled by =
crystal salts which have since dissolved or blown away. =20





I also note that there are "stems" on several of the pictures of =
"balls."  JPL is taking the position that the balls were most likely =
formed locally rather than blown there from a volcano (although that is =
still is a possibility). =20

 =20

Bob Brady

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Glacier</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	MARGIN-TOP: 20px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 50px; COLOR: #006666; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:001301c402cf$fce3f460$0100a8c0 rebradyboxx>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The picture from Guadalupe has several markings in it that look =
similar to=20
the picture below.&nbsp; The oval area is not as deep and is not exactly =

oval.</DIV>
<DIV>The black areas are deeper at the ends and less deep at the=20
intersection.&nbsp; Just ahead, in the valley of the "Y" there is a =
slight=20
mound.&nbsp; In the Guadalupe picture from Opportunity, I count three =
full=20
images and several partials.&nbsp; This picture is featured today on the =
JPL=20
site, <A=20
href=3D"http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/20040302a.h=
tml">http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/20040302a.html=
</A>&nbsp;where=20
it describes these marks as vugs, which were once filled by crystal =
salts which=20
have since dissolved or blown away.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><IMG height=3D69=20
src=3D"cid:001201c402cf$fcc4d3a0$0100a8c0 rebradyboxx" width=3D60=20
v:shapes=3D"_x0000_i1025"></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">I also note that =
there are=20
"stems" on several of the pictures of "balls."&nbsp; JPL is taking the =
position=20
that the balls were most likely formed locally rather than blown there =
from a=20
volcano (although that is still is a possibility).&nbsp; </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">&nbsp; </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Bob =
Brady</P><?xml:namespace=20
prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"=20
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  5 09:58:38 2004
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To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OT> Chenobyl dead zone
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:20:07 -0500
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Hi All.

Let this attractive young Virgil take you on her 1100CC Kawasaki
death machine for a short tour through one of the lowest rungs
of modernities Inferno.

>http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/page2.html<

Remarkable, huh???

K.

I suppose this is an exercise in futility, but for the benefit of folks like
Condy Rice here's a few more relevant links.

>http://www.antenna.nl/wise/573/5434.html<
>http://www.riverkeeper.org/campaign.php/indian_point/we_are_doing/588<


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  5 10:22:52 2004
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: New deuteron stripping research
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Some new work on deuteron stripping (which does not mention cold fusion) =
has been reported. Notably, it is from Russia and Eastern Europe (more =
on that later).=20

It reports on a "threshold anomaly" in the stripping of deuterium by =
medium mass nuclei - where the (n,p) stripping reactions occurred at =
much lower than expected threshold. The anomaly is related to "isospin =
coupling" of proton and neutron channels. Does it have relevance to cold =
fusion? I'm not sure yet, but there are several (4?) studies in pdf =
format which are worth the time, all similar to this abstract:
http://venus.nipne.ro/pr/1999-2000/3/3.2/3.2.1/
[go down to #2. Theoretical Studies on 3-p Anomalies for A=BB 90 =
Deuteron Stripping]=20

These are a bit over my head technically, but what they seem to indicate =
by implication is that at least one segment of D-Pd cold fusion =
reactions will involve a deuteron stripping reaction. At least this is =
the implication from this work to those of us who believe that CF could =
be a compound assortment of low probability reactions: such as QM =
tunneling and other LENR reactions such as stripping - rather that (or =
in addition to) real D+D fusion. Occam be damned...

In CF, the stripping reaction would be followed by the immediate capture =
in the Pd matrix of an 'energy deficient' neutron, such as by 104Pd + n' =
> 105 Pd. This could also be related to a version of QM tunneling. It =
may or may not be followed by the eventual release of an alpha particle, =
depending on how deficient in mass/energy the neutron was at the start - =
but always will involve some excess energy. It is possible that the =
percentage of captures that do eventually result in alpha release is =
coincidentally close to a correlation with the energy of D+D > He.=20

In other words, if every deuteron stripping reaction released several =
keV and out of those stripping reactions, one in 10,000 resulted in an =
alpha release, then the experimenter might be fooled into believing that =
every helium nucleus was accompanied by, say 24 MeV of energy, when in =
fact this was not the case at all. In contrast, what may have happened =
is that it took 10,000 stripping reactions and one alpha release to =
yield the 24 MeV.

Improbably! you say? Yes, improbable (but less so with these new =
studies). And to my thinking it not nearly so improbably by thousands of =
orders of magnitude as the alternative... i.e. trying to explain the =
"missing" 24 MeV gamma ray (and the live graduate assistant).=20

The study above doesn't go anywhere near that far, of course but it does =
serve to reinforce the sentiment that deuterium stripping should be FAR =
more likely to happen in an electrolysis cell than real fusion. The =
mechanism for this relates to the strong coupling between the electric =
and magnetic dipoles (spin-isopin) which has already been proven to =
result in a number of remarkable phenomena including possibly the =
'vortex' itself. Matter of fact, I stumbled on this while trying to =
research the case for a theory behind the self-spinning magnetic rotor.

When the electric dipoles in D nuclei find 'order' in a particular =
confinement regime, even if it is only for a fractional-second, then the =
magnetic moments may also undergo a transition into a state in which =
neighboring spins will 'want' to merge in to a 'forbidden' pairing. A =
this point the deuterium nucleus may release its neutron in some unknown =
low-energy way, so that the neutron is energy-poor, and subject to =
immediate capture by any nucleus that is relatively depleted of =
neutrons, such as 104Pd. Alternatively, we might just say that the =
neutron tunneled into the Pd nucleus.

As a side note: many who have been interested in "deuterium stripping" =
reactions have been rather surprised over the years by the lack of =
reported research, when common sense has dictated that the research =
should have been done, and anecdote suggests that it was indeed =
performed... and in some cases what appears to be stone-walling when old =
papers has been requested from official sources. I am not really =
'paranoid' (or maybe am just in denial) and generally prefer to make =
light of the conspiracy theorists (Mel Gibson, even before his current =
predicament, was the role model for the humor inherent in the paranoid =
conspiracy thing). Of course, many of that ilk appear in =
disproportionate number on fringe-science forums and some even get =
regular messages from the CIA. But in the case of deuterium stripping =
there does appear to be something strange going on in the free-flow of =
information... the basis of which could possibly relate back to =
non-proliferation issues - who knows? but I doubt we would fine that =
Dick Cheney even knows what a deuteron is...

Jones

Who was it that said " just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean =
they aren't out to get you"?=20

probably the same wiseacre who said, "just because nobody understands =
you, doesn't mean you're artistic"...

or,  just because you're full doesn't mean you should stop eating...

or, more to the case in point... just because I have a fragile ego =
doesn't mean I can't beat cliches with a stick...
=20
or, even more apropos... just because I write like a fool doesn't mean =
I'll always be one....


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<DIV>Some new work on deuteron stripping (which does not mention cold =
fusion)=20
has been reported.&nbsp;Notably, it is from Russia and Eastern Europe =
(more on=20
that later). </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It reports on a&nbsp;"threshold anomaly" in the stripping of =
deuterium by=20
medium mass nuclei&nbsp;- where the (n,p) stripping reactions occurred =
at much=20
lower than expected&nbsp;threshold. The anomaly is related to "isospin =
coupling"=20
of proton and neutron channels. Does it have relevance to cold fusion? =
I'm not=20
sure yet, but there are several (4?) studies in pdf&nbsp;format which =
are worth=20
the time, all similar to this abstract:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://venus.nipne.ro/pr/1999-2000/3/3.2/3.2.1/">http://venus.nip=
ne.ro/pr/1999-2000/3/3.2/3.2.1/</A></DIV>
<DIV>[go down to #2. Theoretical Studies on 3-p Anomalies for A=BB 90 =
Deuteron=20
Stripping] </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>These&nbsp;are a bit over my head technically, but what&nbsp;they =
seem to=20
indicate by implication is that at least one segment of D-Pd cold fusion =

reactions will involve a&nbsp;deuteron stripping reaction.&nbsp;At least =
this is=20
the implication from this work to those of us who believe that CF could =
be a=20
compound assortment of low probability&nbsp;reactions: such as QM =
tunneling and=20
other LENR reactions such as stripping&nbsp;- rather that (or in =
addition=20
to)&nbsp;real D+D fusion. Occam be damned...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In CF, the stripping reaction would be&nbsp;followed by the =
immediate=20
capture in the Pd matrix of an 'energy deficient' neutron, such as by =
104Pd + n'=20
&gt; 105 Pd. This could also be related to a version of QM tunneling. It =
may or=20
may not be followed by the eventual release of an alpha particle, =
depending on=20
how deficient in mass/energy the neutron was at the start - but always =
will=20
involve some excess energy. It is possible that the percentage of =
captures that=20
do eventually result in alpha release is coincidentally close to a =
correlation=20
with the energy of D+D &gt; He. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In other words, if every&nbsp;deuteron stripping reaction released =
several=20
keV and out of those stripping reactions, one in 10,000 resulted in an =
alpha=20
release, then the experimenter might be fooled into believing that every =
helium=20
nucleus was accompanied by, say 24 MeV of energy, when in fact this was =
not the=20
case at all. In contrast, what may have happened is that it took 10,000=20
stripping reactions and one alpha release to yield the 24 MeV.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Improbably!&nbsp;you say? Yes, improbable (but less so with these =
new=20
studies). And to my thinking it not nearly so improbably by thousands of =
orders=20
of magnitude as the alternative... i.e. trying to explain the "missing" =
24 MeV=20
gamma ray (and the live graduate assistant). </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The study above doesn't go anywhere near that far, of course but it =

does&nbsp;serve to reinforce the sentiment that deuterium =
stripping&nbsp;should=20
be&nbsp;FAR more likely to happen in an electrolysis cell than real =
fusion. The=20
mechanism for this relates to&nbsp;the strong coupling between the =
electric and=20
magnetic dipoles (spin-isopin) which has already been proven to result =
in a=20
number of remarkable phenomena including&nbsp;possibly the 'vortex' =
itself.=20
Matter of fact, I stumbled on this while trying to research the case for =
a=20
theory behind the self-spinning magnetic rotor.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When the electric dipoles in D nuclei find 'order'&nbsp;in a =
particular=20
confinement regime,&nbsp;even if it is only for a fractional-second, =
then the=20
magnetic moments may also undergo a transition into a state in which =
neighboring=20
spins will 'want' to merge in to a 'forbidden' pairing. A this point the =

deuterium nucleus may release its neutron in some unknown low-energy =
way, so=20
that the neutron is energy-poor, and&nbsp;subject to&nbsp;immediate =
capture by=20
any nucleus that is relatively depleted of neutrons, such as 104Pd.=20
Alternatively, we might just say that the neutron tunneled into the Pd=20
nucleus.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As a side note: many who have been interested in "deuterium =
stripping"=20
reactions have been rather surprised over the years by the lack of =
reported=20
research, when common sense has dictated that the research should have =
been=20
done, and anecdote suggests that it was indeed&nbsp;performed... and in =
some=20
cases what appears to be stone-walling when old papers has been =
requested from=20
official sources. I am not really 'paranoid' (or maybe am just in =
denial) and=20
generally prefer to make light of the conspiracy theorists (Mel Gibson, =
even=20
before his current predicament, was the role model for the humor =
inherent in the=20
paranoid conspiracy thing). Of course, many of that ilk appear in=20
disproportionate number on fringe-science forums and some even get =
regular=20
messages from the CIA. But in the case of deuterium stripping there does =
appear=20
to be something strange going on in the free-flow of information... the =
basis of=20
which could possibly relate back to non-proliferation issues - who =
knows? but I=20
doubt we would fine that Dick Cheney even knows what a deuteron =
is...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Who was it that said " just because you're not paranoid doesn't =
mean they=20
aren't out to get&nbsp;you"? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>probably the same wiseacre who said, "just because nobody =
understands you,=20
doesn't mean you're artistic"...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>or,&nbsp; just because you're full doesn't mean you should stop=20
eating...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>or, more to the case in point...&nbsp;just because I have =
a&nbsp;fragile=20
ego&nbsp;doesn't mean I can't beat cliches with a stick...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;<BR>or, even more&nbsp;apropos...&nbsp;just because I write =
like a=20
fool doesn't mean I'll always be one....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  5 10:31:24 2004
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Subject: RE: OT> Chenobyl dead zone
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That is ASTOUNDING. The photos and text are both amazing. The author must 
be nuts.

- Jed


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K.
 
> Let this attractive young Virgil take you ...

"Virgil?" you Putin me on?

or did Dante get off when Homer got on...

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These two seem to have roots.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131652949EFF0544P293=
3M2M1.JPG

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/028/1M130671947EFF0454P295=
3M2M1.JPG

Most of them seem to have navels and a ridge on one side.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131649564EFF0544P293=
3M2M1.JPG

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/029/1M130760650EFF0454P293=
3M2M1.JPG

This one is split in half and seems to be exposing some sort of internal =
structure.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/015/1M129515946EFF0312P293=
3M2M1.JPG

I think these things may be alive. Aren't they supposed to analyze them =
with the APX soon?

Craig Haynie

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>These two seem to have =
roots.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131652949EFF=
0544P2933M2M1.JPG">http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M1=
31652949EFF0544P2933M2M1.JPG</A><A=20
href=3D"http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131652949EFF=
0544P2933M2M1.HTML"></A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/028/1M130671947EFF=
0454P2953M2M1.JPG">http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/028/1M1=
30671947EFF0454P2953M2M1.JPG</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Most of them seem to have navels and a =
ridge on one=20
side.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131649564EFF=
0544P2933M2M1.JPG">http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M1=
31649564EFF0544P2933M2M1.JPG</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/029/1M130760650EFF=
0454P2933M2M1.JPG">http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/029/1M1=
30760650EFF0454P2933M2M1.JPG</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This one is split in half and seems to =
be exposing=20
some sort of internal structure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/015/1M129515946EFF=
0312P2933M2M1.JPG">http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/015/1M1=
29515946EFF0312P2933M2M1.JPG</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think these things may be alive. =
Aren't they=20
supposed to analyze them with the APX soon?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Craig Haynie</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar  5 18:18:05 2004
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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew bobpark.org>
> To: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
 Date: 3/5/2004 12:57:32 PM
 Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, March 05, 2004

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 5 Mar 04   Washington, DC

 1. POLITICAL SCIENCE: THE ADMINISTRATION ANSWERS THE SCIENTISTS.
 Barely a week after 60 prominent scientists issued a statement
 charging the Bush administration with manipulating the science
 advisory process http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn022004.cfm , the
 White House delivered an eloquent response   two advocates of
 stem cell research were abruptly ejected from the Council on
 Bioethics, and  replaced on the panel by three appointees whose
 opposition to stem cell research is solidly faith-based.  Anybody
 else want to speak up?  John Marburger, Director of the White
 House Office of Science and Technology Policy, has apparently
 been assigned the task of belittling the scientist's statement,
 but the 60 prominent scientists who signed aren't backing down.

 2. ADVERTISING: WHAT IF AN ENEMY MISSILE HAD JUST BEEN LAUNCHED? 
 The question is asked in the new Lockheed Martin ads that
 appeared this week on TV and in newspapers.  An inbound missile
 is shown, with a cloud-shrouded "target city" far below.  "What
 would it take to stop it?" the ad asks.  Answer: "Information,
 speed and accuracy in a multi-layered system that integrates all
 three.  Decisive action.  Missile Defense."  But there is no
missile defense, and for that matter, there is no missile.  The 
only place a missile could be coming from is Russia, and that's
 why we still maintain a deterrent.  The Lockheed Martin ads just
 happened to coincide with the first commercials of the Bush
 campaign.  We have been tested, one says, but the challenge was
 met with "faith, families and sacrifice."

 3. BUBBLE FUSION: CORPSE OF "SONOFUSION" IS SAID TO BE TWITCHING.
 A new claim of desktop fusion from collapsing bubbles is coming
 out.  It's been two years since Taleyarken et al. at Oak Ridge
 National Laboratory reported in Science magazine that they had
 observed 2.5 MeV neutron peaks correlated with sonoluminescence
 from collapsing bubbles http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn030102.cfm ,
 but others could not confirm their results.  By mid summer the
 bubble had burst http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn072602.dfm . That
 was remarkably similar to the lifetime of cold fusion.  But now
 Taleyarken has new results that some say are more convincing. 
 Perhaps we should wait for independent confirmation. Cold fusion,
 of course, still has believers, but not much confirmation.

 4. MOON-MARS: IF FACTS CHANGE, A REASONABLE MAN CHANGES HIS MIND.
 An editorial in today's New York Times points out that a few
 months ago astronaut John Grumsfeld was a "Hubble-hugger" who
 described his two Hubble repair missions as the most important
 achievement in his life.  Now he defends the decision to kill
 Hubble http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn012304.cfm .  Have the facts
 changed?  Yes, Grumsfeld is now NASA's Chief Scientist.

 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.  
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
 You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki ix.netcom.com
 To unsubscribe send a blank email to
leave-whatsnew-47101V lists.apsmsgs.org
 To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: <join-whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  6 00:04:05 2004
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Parksie writes:

>The
>only place a missile could be coming from is Russia, and that's
> why we still maintain a deterrent.


Has this guy ever heard of North Korea? Honolulu, among others, could be that city. We're within range.

- Rick

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
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At 10:01 PM 3/5/4, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>Parksie writes:
>
>>The
>>only place a missile could be coming from is Russia, and that's
>> why we still maintain a deterrent.
>
>
>Has this guy ever heard of North Korea? Honolulu, among others, could be
>that city. We're within range.
>
>- Rick

So is much of Alaska, including the Alyeska Pipeline, Anchorage and my
little hometown Palmer.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Mars stems, marbels, threads
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http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=3D676&category=3DScience

This info makes these items look less and less like anything that was/is =
living...
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  6 10:16:54 2004
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: FW: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, March 05, 2004
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:39:30 -0500
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I asked a friend of mine about this issue, he was attached
to one of the diplomatic parties sent to negotiate with
the North Koreans. We talked before the second gulf war,
and he had this to say.

"In the public media, the North Koreans bared their teeth, slammed
their shoes on the table, and promised the destruction
of the Satan America. In private, during negotiations, they
bent over backwards to appease us. North Korea is largely
a failed state, and the main issue for them is continuing
to get oil and food from us to avoid another round of
mass starvation. That this aid was cut off caused the
initial crisis that we are now dealing with. Don't believe
what you're seeing in the media about this, it's all a bunch of
propaganda from both sides."

I thought this position extreme, but after watching
events surrounding another famous madman armed with
weapons of mass destruction ready to destroy America,
I find myself a bit less credulous. And of course, he
was actually there talking to the North Koreans, and
I wasn't.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 8:34 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 05, 2004


At 10:01 PM 3/5/4, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>Parksie writes:
>
>>The
>>only place a missile could be coming from is Russia, and that's
>> why we still maintain a deterrent.
>
>
>Has this guy ever heard of North Korea? Honolulu, among others, could be
>that city. We're within range.
>
>- Rick

So is much of Alaska, including the Alyeska Pipeline, Anchorage and my
little hometown Palmer.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  6 11:35:03 2004
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Jones wrote:


http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=676&category=Science

This info makes these items look less and less like anything that was/is
living...

MC: Be careful with the word "these", for the images in the link include the
spherules that appear to grow on stems, and all the mundane examples are of
thin mineral filaments. The spherule-on-stem is notably lacking in any
'explanatory' comment. I am looking forward with interest to 'explanations'
of this as a result of some mundane mineraological process. The dance should
be interesting. I predict a lot of silence, excused by the fact that the
rovers were designed analyze rock, not organics. That will excuse any
serious discussion of these objects.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  6 15:33:28 2004
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Mike wrote:

> The spherule-on-stem is notably lacking in any
> 'explanatory' comment. I am looking forward with interest to 'explanations'
> of this as a result of some mundane mineraological process. The dance should be interesting. 

Yes. I am looking forward to more detail too, but I guess my disappointment [as to the spherule-on-stem] rests on the image of the one there which had been ground-down by the RAT (descriptive acronym, huh?).

Granted, it was not a hi-rez image at all but still there was no internal structure in the image - no obvious growth rings, gills or seeds, etc. I half-expected  it to show some kind of internal structure - even petrified trees show lots of structure, but again the image was not a close-up, so all hope is not lost. I'm sure there *was* life on Mars once [based on the nanobes found in Mars meteorites some time ago] but like many of us kibitzers, I was hoping for something fairly advanced or perhaps even... still living...

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar  6 19:32:44 2004
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Jones wrote:

> Mike wrote:
>
> > The spherule-on-stem is notably lacking in any
> > 'explanatory' comment. I am looking forward with interest to
'explanations'
> > of this as a result of some mundane mineraological process. The dance
should be interesting.
>
> Yes. I am looking forward to more detail too, but I guess my
disappointment [as to the spherule-on-stem] rests on the image of the one
there which had been ground-down by the RAT (descriptive acronym, huh?).
>
> Granted, it was not a hi-rez image at all but still there was no internal
structure in >the image - no obvious growth rings, gills or seeds, etc. I
half-expected  it to show >some kind of internal structure - even petrified
trees show lots of structure, but >again the image was not a close-up, so
all hope is not lost. I'm sure there *was* >life on Mars once [based on the
nanobes found in Mars meteorites some time ago] >but like many of us
kibitzers, I was hoping for something fairly advanced or >perhaps even...
still living...

In this context, it is very dangerous to lay terrestrial expectations on
Martian life forms. There are some exotic bacteria on earth which have very
slow replication rates. The energy input on Mars may be low and life slow
but persistant, and we have been there for how many days? Nobody was
expecting anything like this, so 'responsible' commentary is lacking. it
would take another whole cycle of instrumentation to examine these
adequately. Even importing them to Earth may kill them. It was assumed that
bacterial found in antartic ice cores were fossile until someone thought
that maybe human lab temperatures were fatal. Sure enough, when care was
taken to keep them adequately cool, they thrived just fine.

Mike Carrell


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At 3:29 PM 3/6/4, Jones Beene wrote:

>Granted, it was not a hi-rez image at all but still there was no internal
>structure in the image - no obvious growth rings, gills or seeds, etc. I
>half-expected  it to show some kind of internal structure - even petrified
>trees show lots of structure, but again the image was not a close-up, so
>all hope is not lost. I'm sure there *was* life on Mars once [based on the
>nanobes found in Mars meteorites some time ago] but like many of us
>kibitzers, I was hoping for something fairly advanced or perhaps even...
>still living...
>
>Jones


There is no reason to expect ordinary fruit structures in a lichen fruiting
body, i.e. in the perithecium.  There ARE no seeds.  Internal structures
would not be clearly visible.  They consist of microscopic mycelium
filaments embedded with single cell bacteria and spores.  The structure,
e.g  the periphysis, and the open ostiole, or apical pore, only develops
when the fruiting body is ready to release spores.  What you are seeing in
cross section is an unripe and either frozen or petrified perithecium.  In
many of the photos the pre-ostiole structure (called by some a "naval") is
clearly visible at the opposite end from the stem.  The outer strucures
certainly are clearly defined at all times, however, unless the fruiting
body is damaged and "rotting" and sublimating, in which case it looks like
a snowball evaporating.  Attached is (again) a clip of one such decaying
perithecium, in which the periphysis is clearly visible in the apical pore.

It looks to me that in many cases what we see as "rocks" really are not
rocks at all, but rather fozen masses of mycelium.  It is essentially a
glacier formed from saturated brine and which is in the form of a gel.  It
is (or was) alive when unfrozen.  The outer crust on this "ice" normally
prevents ordinary "evaporation", i.e sublimation.  You can still see the
root-like rhizine filling some of the holes that permeate the stuff like
swiss cheeze.  Here and there you can see crustose lichen growing on the
surface of the frozen ice mass (or former ice mass.)  There appears to be a
mix of lichen-like species involved.

That's the way it looks to me, anyway.  I haven't seen anything that
contradicts the notion that most of the suface where Opportunity is roving
is comprised at least in part of a crustose lichen crust, or that just
subsurface is a layer of (mycelium) ice everywhere.  The "berries"
certainly appear to be perithecia.

One thing seems sure to me, and that is that even if the air there were
breathable, it would stink to high heavens!



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Regards,

Horace Heffner          



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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <v01530500bc70a73418e5 [12.21.209.14]>
Subject: Re: Mars stems, marbles, threads
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 06:37:43 -0800
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Horace,

> It looks to me that in many cases what we see as "rocks" really are not
> rocks at all, but rather fozen masses of mycelium.  It is essentially a
> glacier formed from saturated brine and which is in the form of a gel.  It
> is (or was) alive when unfrozen.  

If what you say is true then it should be possible to simulate the appearance of these on earth by hard-freezing similar fruiting bodies and grinding them in half. I wouldn't doubt that someone has already done it (maybe you have been scouring the local Alaska tundra this morning for just such a simulation  ;-)  certainly, the interest in this from non-professionals is extraordinary... but in the mean time... Is it you opinion that some of this frozen mass of mycelium will reanimate as soon as the temperature rises to a certain range ?

Jones



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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: Mars stems, marbles, threads
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Jones wrote:


> Horace,
>
> > It looks to me that in many cases what we see as "rocks" really are not
> > rocks at all, but rather fozen masses of mycelium.  It is essentially a
> > glacier formed from saturated brine and which is in the form of a gel.
It
> > is (or was) alive when unfrozen.
>
> If what you say is true then it should be possible to simulate the
appearance of these on earth by hard-freezing similar fruiting bodies and
grinding them in half. I wouldn't doubt that someone has already done it
(maybe you have been scouring the local Alaska tundra this morning for just
such a simulation  ;-)  certainly, the interest in this from
non-professionals is extraordinary... but in the mean time... Is it you
opinion that some of this frozen mass of mycelium will reanimate as soon as
the temperature rises to a certain range ?
-------
MC: Don't assume that it is "frozen" and is "inaimate". The metabolism may
be quite slow, and may proceed below the freezing point of normal water.
Earth heat may kill it.

Mike Carrell


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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 09:22:26 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mars stems, marbles, threads
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At 6:37 AM 3/7/4, Jones Beene wrote:
>Horace,
>
>> It looks to me that in many cases what we see as "rocks" really are not
>> rocks at all, but rather fozen masses of mycelium.  It is essentially a
>> glacier formed from saturated brine and which is in the form of a gel.  It
>> is (or was) alive when unfrozen.
>
>If what you say is true then it should be possible to simulate the
>appearance of these on earth by hard-freezing similar fruiting bodies and
>grinding them in half. I wouldn't doubt that someone has already done it
>(maybe you have been scouring the local Alaska tundra this morning for
>just such a simulation  ;-)


Too much snow on the gound.  8^)



> certainly, the interest in this from non-professionals is
>extraordinary... but in the mean time... Is it you opinion that some of
>this frozen mass of mycelium will reanimate as soon as the temperature
>rises to a certain range ?


We this is all speculation, but it appears to me that most of the mycelia
(actullay called medulla when in a large mass) is probably dead.  On earth
such a thing would be similar to layers of prairy piling up on top of each
other, ending up as one big flat compost heap.  However, on Mars, the
composting doesn't go very fast due to long periods of freezing, exellent
dessication protection by the mycelial sheath, and lack of micorbs to do
the composting.  The layers of stuff probably act like fertile soil for
some species of lichen that are capable of shooting rhizinae, which are
root-like structures, down into the ice.  There is plenty of evidence that
such structures exist or existed in the ice in the form of brown rope or
string-like structures.  That is a good partial explanation for why there
are so many holes.  In addition, if patches of  crustose lichen forms on
the surface of the exposed ice, it should bore down into it in a manner
similar to the way rocks and pebbles bore down into ordinary glaciers - by
absorbing light and radiant heat and warming up enough to increase the
sublimation rate beneath themselves.  Such holes, when caused by rocks or
pebbles on glaciers, are called cryoconite holes.  These holes in glacial
ice look similar to the holes that gas bubbles leave in magma.  It would be
easy to mistake one for the other if (a) it was not known that one was
looking at ice-like material and not rock and (b) the material were laying
on its side.

There is additional evidence that much of the stuff we've seen is ice-like.
That is the fact that the stuff which sits in what appears to be the sandy
remnants of a puddle, often casts a shadow about the rim of its base,
showing an indentation in the base.  This indentation mey well have been
caused by the material dissolving and/or melting into the puddle.  The
melting rate at the base of chunks of ice in a puddle of water is increased
by exposure to the liquid water.  The effect would not be as great for
frozen medullary material, but should still exist, especailly if the
material were dead.  Further, the presence of the water itself, can only be
explained by the melting ice.  The ancient ice is the only clearly
available source of water.

It looks like the craters in the vicinity of opportunity made have been
made in an ice field.  The entire area may be one big shallow glacier.

Again, all speculation.  But if correct, it means that some of the stuff is
dead, and a lot of it is currently alive.  The well formed "blueberries"
are likely alive, and the deteriorating white ones, which look like fibrous
snowballs, are likely dead.   Further, if the above speculation is correct,
it means water is all about and yet so far unnoticed.  I wonder if that is
possible?   Wouldn't one of the NASA instruments detect this?  It is
already known for sure that large parts of Mars have water or ice just
below the surface. See:

<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/28may%5Fmarsice.htm>

It is hard to believe that the NASA folks could mistake ice for rock, or
lichen for sand for that matter.   That makes me think the all above ideas
are completely wrong.  On the other hand, there IS shallow subsurface water
on Mars and crustose lichen would provide an ideal explanation as to why it
has not all sublimated.  It would also explain the "canals on Mars" which
grow or grew in the Martian summer.  It would also help explain the crust
on the soil, and the white layer that is exposed in the trenches and tracks
made by the landers.

All very self-contradictory.  It will be interesting to see the outcome.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Filaments
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Lots of very fine filaments can found when carefully scrutinizing:


>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131647698EFF0544P2953M
>2M1.JPG<

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131647578EFF0544P2953M
>2M1.JPG<

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131647639EFF0544P2953M
>2M1.JPG<

Toggeling between the images shows them not to be artifacts, but real
things in the photos.  They are not quite as thick or pronounced as earlier
fibers, but they can not be from the airbag because many of them clearly
emerge from or enter the soil.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Baronvolsung aol.com
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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:25:49 EST
Subject: Cold Fusion Improved By Using Quantum Tunneling Voltages & Resonances
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-------------------------------1078698349
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Photon-Assisted Tunneling in Electron Pumps

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:ZDP4OxaqvcMJ:www.boulder.nist.gov/div814/
div817b/pubs/downloads/set/patinpumps.pdf+photon+tunneling&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

"Time varying voltage sources with spectral components at frequencies 
corresponding to the charging energy (typically 10 GHz) will significantly increase 
tunneling rates, because it will generate photons of sufficient energy to 
overcome the charging energy barrier. "


PHOTON ASSISTED TUNNELING IN QUANTUM DOTS WG VAN DER WIEL,TH ...
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:Fn0X-T3aCCUJ:qt.tn.tudelft.nl/publi/2002/
PAT.pdf+photon+tunneling&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Electron-photon interaction in resonant tunneling diodes

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:Ggg6wmo02McJ:www.physics.rutgers.edu/~rag
uado/40412.pdf+photon+tunneling&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, 
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: 
www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

-------------------------------1078698349
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
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f">
<DIV><A onmousedown=3D"return clk(33,this)" title=3Dhttp://www.boulder.nist.=
gov/div814/div817b/pubs/downloads/set/patinpumps.pdf href=3D"http://www.boul=
der.nist.gov/div814/div817b/pubs/downloads/set/patinpumps.pdf"><FONT color=
=3D#0000cc><B>Photon</B>-Assisted <B>Tunneling</B> in Electron Pumps</FONT><=
/A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A title=3Dhttp://216.239.37.104/search?q=3Dcache:ZDP4OxaqvcMJ:www.boul=
der.nist.gov/div814/div817b/pubs/downloads/set/patinpumps.pdf+photon+tunneli=
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:ZDP4OxaqvcMJ:www.boulder.nist.gov/div814/div817b/pubs/downloads/set/patinpu=
mps.pdf+photon+tunneling&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8">http://216.239.37.104/s=
earch?q=3Dcache:ZDP4OxaqvcMJ:www.boulder.nist.gov/div814/div817b/pubs/downlo=
ads/set/patinpumps.pdf+photon+tunneling&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Time varying voltage sources with spectral components at frequencies c=
orresponding to the charging energy (typically 10 GHz) will significantly in=
crease tunneling rates, because it will generate photons of sufficient energ=
y to overcome the charging energy barrier. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A onmousedown=3D"return clk(39,this)" title=3Dhttp://qt.tn.tudelft.nl/=
publi/2002/PAT.pdf href=3D"http://qt.tn.tudelft.nl/publi/2002/PAT.pdf"><FONT=
 color=3D#0000cc><B>PHOTON</B> ASSISTED <B>TUNNELING</B> IN QUANTUM DOTS WG=20=
VAN DER WIEL,TH <B>...</B></FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 PTSIZE=3D"10" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=
><A title=3Dhttp://216.239.37.104/search?q=3Dcache:Fn0X-T3aCCUJ:qt.tn.tudelf=
t.nl/publi/2002/PAT.pdf+photon+tunneling&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8 href=3D"=
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=3Dcache:Fn0X-T3aCCUJ:qt.tn.tudelft.nl/publi/2=
002/PAT.pdf+photon+tunneling&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8">http://216.239.37.1=
04/search?q=3Dcache:Fn0X-T3aCCUJ:qt.tn.tudelft.nl/publi/2002/PAT.pdf+photon+=
tunneling&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 PTSIZE=3D"10" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=
></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A onmousedown=3D"return clk(45,this)" title=3Dhttp://www.physics.rutge=
rs.edu/~raguado/40412.pdf href=3D"http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~raguado/40=
412.pdf"><FONT color=3D#0000cc>Electron-<B>photon</B> interaction in resonan=
t <B>tunneling</B> diodes</FONT></A><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 PTSIZE=3D"10" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=
><A title=3Dhttp://216.239.41.104/search?q=3Dcache:Ggg6wmo02McJ:www.physics.=
rutgers.edu/~raguado/40412.pdf+photon+tunneling&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8 h=
ref=3D"http://216.239.41.104/search?q=3Dcache:Ggg6wmo02McJ:www.physics.rutge=
rs.edu/~raguado/40412.pdf+photon+tunneling&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8">http:=
//216.239.41.104/search?q=3Dcache:Ggg6wmo02McJ:www.physics.rutgers.edu/~ragu=
ado/40412.pdf+photon+tunneling&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ie=3DUTF-8</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"h=
ttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dhttp=
://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.htm=
l">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark, <BR>Email=
: <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.=
com/emailform.html">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A>, Personal Web Page: <A=
 title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/person=
al">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>New Age Production's Inc., <A title=3Dhtt=
p://www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">www.rhfweb.c=
om\newage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Services, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhf=
web.com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh</A><BR>Radiat=
ion Health Foundation Trust at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"htt=
p://www.rhfweb.com/">www.rhfweb.com</A><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1078698349--

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See square device looking object on which appears to be on ground near Spirit:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/061/2N131788667EFF1200P1835L
>0M1.JPG<


It does not appear to be behind Spirit, thus probably did not fall off
Spirit?  The circles on the front of the object are reminiscent of the
magnetic dust collectors.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Device on Mars soil?
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--============_-1133423429==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

See square device looking object on which appears to be on ground near Spirit:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/061/2N131788667EFF1200P1835L
>0M1.JPG<


It does not appear to be behind Spirit, thus probably did not fall off
Spirit?  The circles on the front of the object are reminiscent of the
magnetic dust collectors.


A snippet of the device is attached.



--============_-1133423429==_============
Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="device.JPG"
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--============_-1133423429==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



--============_-1133423429==_============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  7 14:54:19 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Device on Mars soil?
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I was wrong about the square device being ahead of Spirit.  You can see
that it is to the rear and to the port side in navcam photo here:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/061/2N131788482EFF1200P1835R
>0M1.HTML<

(but it is obscured in the matching left view.)


The square device looking object on which appears to be on ground near
Spirit was originally noted in navcam photo:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/061/2N131788667EFF1200P1835L
>0M1.JPG<

but is also in matching navcam photo:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/061/2N131788667EFF1200P1835R
>0M1.JPG<

It is in 3 photos, so it is no illusion.  Wonder if it fell off Spirit?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  7 17:27:37 2004
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>I was wrong about the square device being ahead of Spirit.
>

Kewl, Horace!  I'm sure it's mosaic tile from some ancient martian bath 
house.  We're probably looking at the backside where the mortar or 
adhesive was attached.

Seriously, if it fell off Spirit, wouldn't we likely see wheel tracks in 
the image?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  7 18:16:36 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Device on Mars soil?
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At 8:21 PM 3/7/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>I was wrong about the square device being ahead of Spirit.
>>
>
>Kewl, Horace!  I'm sure it's mosaic tile from some ancient martian bath
>house.  We're probably looking at the backside where the mortar or
>adhesive was attached.
>
>Seriously, if it fell off Spirit, wouldn't we likely see wheel tracks in
>the image?


Not necessarily.  If you carefully look at all the navcam photos you can
see that the wheel tracks are just barely to the left, outside the range of
the photo:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/061/2N131788482EFF1200P1835R
>0M1.HTML<

It appears the square object is just about under the far (port) edge of the
solar panels.  It might have dropped off the rover and bounced on a wheel
or something.  Very unlikely, but the other alternatives are hard to
believe too.  One thing very notable is the lack of any impact marks or
soil disruption around the object.  It certainly couldn't have fallen very
far, if it did fall.  It seems very unlikely that it fell off during the
landing sequence.

Maybe it is the tip of a subsurface object?   Or ... maybe there really is
a bathouse just over the rim of the crater.   8^)

Perhaps it is a just a martian probe broadcasting this historic event to
all of Mars.   8^)   The press is everywhere!   8^))

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  7 18:39:59 2004
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Arg!  It's an illusion.  The square is not on the ground, but rather on the
solar panel.  See old navcam photo:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/052/2N130984475EFF1120P1936L
>0M1.JPG<


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  7 19:01:44 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Device on Mars soil?
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I can't believe I fell for that "illusion."   It's not even  very good
illusion.  the tile moves with respect to the soil background when
perspective changes.  It clearly was mounted on the solar panel.  The only
thing that faked me out was the fact that the greyscale value for the solar
panel around the tile was so near to that of the soil.  I should have
looked more carefully.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  7 20:08:58 2004
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From: alexander hollins <the_leaking_pen yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Device on Mars soil?
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thats...  not on the ground.  its on spirit.  you can
tell becuase its surrounded on all sides by the
uniform texture that says spirit, not dirt.
--- Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
> At 8:21 PM 3/7/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
> >Horace Heffner wrote:
> >
> >>I was wrong about the square device being ahead of
> Spirit.
> >>
> >
> >Kewl, Horace!  I'm sure it's mosaic tile from some
> ancient martian bath
> >house.  We're probably looking at the backside
> where the mortar or
> >adhesive was attached.
> >
> >Seriously, if it fell off Spirit, wouldn't we
> likely see wheel tracks in
> >the image?
> 
> 
> Not necessarily.  If you carefully look at all the
> navcam photos you can
> see that the wheel tracks are just barely to the
> left, outside the range of
> the photo:
> 
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/061/2N131788482EFF1200P1835R
> >0M1.HTML<
> 
> It appears the square object is just about under the
> far (port) edge of the
> solar panels.  It might have dropped off the rover
> and bounced on a wheel
> or something.  Very unlikely, but the other
> alternatives are hard to
> believe too.  One thing very notable is the lack of
> any impact marks or
> soil disruption around the object.  It certainly
> couldn't have fallen very
> far, if it did fall.  It seems very unlikely that it
> fell off during the
> landing sequence.
> 
> Maybe it is the tip of a subsurface object?   Or ...
> maybe there really is
> a bathouse just over the rim of the crater.   8^)
> 
> Perhaps it is a just a martian probe broadcasting
> this historic event to
> all of Mars.   8^)   The press is everywhere!   8^))
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 


__________________________________
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From: "SnowDog" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
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Subject: Big Martian Rock
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This is the rock Humphrey, color-corrected the best that I can without the
calibration data.

http://69.57.146.76/golddirectory/mars/mars.htm

They brushed three areas of the rock and then ran the APX on it. It looks
like a big piece of iron, covered by dust.

More on the PanCam:

I found a discussion group concentrating on the same problem that we were on
last week, where the calibration data with the images being released by JPL
are not included with the images. The group found someone at NASA to answer
some questions about the calibration data. Basically, he said, the images
are the only data being released live. All the other data, including the
calibration data, will be released in a few months. I think he also said
that this was the first time they decided to stream the images to the web as
soon as they received them. Maybe next time they will do it a bit
differently, but for this mission, the calibration data comes later.

Craig Haynie



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar  7 22:33:24 2004
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Subject: RE: Mars stems, marbles, threads
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:56:28 -0500
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This 3D image shows a ground down spherule

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040305a/10-sg-03
-mckittrick-B041R1.jpg<

The horizontal strips are due to the RAT cutting tool,
but notice the inclusions? The spherule is really
stuck in there as well, I'd sort of expect it to
rotate in the hole but it didn't.

It's probably the case that there was a long period
where very concentrated salt solution evaporated
and condensed, I could imaging that process fueling
the growth of the spherules.

I would call these protolife processes as they're
inorganic but mimic life processes. The line between
living and nonliving is a porous border, far from
a sharp boundary.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 6:30 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mars stems, marbles, threads


Mike wrote:

> The spherule-on-stem is notably lacking in any
> 'explanatory' comment. I am looking forward with interest to
'explanations'
> of this as a result of some mundane mineraological process. The dance
should be interesting.

Yes. I am looking forward to more detail too, but I guess my disappointment
[as to the spherule-on-stem] rests on the image of the one there which had
been ground-down by the RAT (descriptive acronym, huh?).

Granted, it was not a hi-rez image at all but still there was no internal
structure in the image - no obvious growth rings, gills or seeds, etc. I
half-expected  it to show some kind of internal structure - even petrified
trees show lots of structure, but again the image was not a close-up, so all
hope is not lost. I'm sure there *was* life on Mars once [based on the
nanobes found in Mars meteorites some time ago] but like many of us
kibitzers, I was hoping for something fairly advanced or perhaps even...
still living...

Jones


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Subject: Re: Big Martian Rock
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At 11:42 PM 3/7/4, SnowDog wrote:
>This is the rock Humphrey, color-corrected the best that I can without the
>calibration data.
>
>http://69.57.146.76/golddirectory/mars/mars.htm

Nice rendering.  Thanks for posting.

Hey, what's that two leafed sprout doing coming up out of the ground at
958,663?
8^)  Note its shadow.  Clip of it attached.


>I found a discussion group concentrating on the same problem that we were on
>last week, where the calibration data with the images being released by JPL
>are not included with the images. The group found someone at NASA to answer
>some questions about the calibration data. Basically, he said, the images
>are the only data being released live. All the other data, including the
>calibration data, will be released in a few months. I think he also said
>that this was the first time they decided to stream the images to the web as
>soon as they received them. Maybe next time they will do it a bit
>differently, but for this mission, the calibration data comes later.


It has been a great coup to distribute the photos right away.  It would be
a public relations blunder now to do any differently - unless of course
they want many of their most interested supporters to turn on them.  It is
after all public data obtained with public money.  There is an implied duty
and there should be a formal policy to disclose it promptlly, especially
when there is such a great public interest.  Can you imagine reverting to
an incompetent level of information distribution after having shown live
space missions on TV?



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Regards,

Horace Heffner          



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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Mars stems, marbles, threads
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At 1:56 AM 3/8/4, Keith Nagel wrote:
>This 3D image shows a ground down spherule
>
>>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040305a/10-sg-03
>-mckittrick-B041R1.jpg<
>
>The horizontal strips are due to the RAT cutting tool,
>but notice the inclusions? The spherule is really
>stuck in there as well, I'd sort of expect it to
>rotate in the hole but it didn't.
[snip]

Could be just frozen in place.  8^)

In the original photos I thought the central stripes looked like cutter
marks too.  However, in this more detailed photo, it is clear that they are
not.  If you look carefully, you can see that there are some complicated
patterns in the central part of the berry, not in parallel with the grinder
motion, including what looks to be the cross section of some spiraling
fibers or structures.

They can possibly be made more visible by playing with contrast.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:40:29 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Barbells, tadpoles & USB
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I was hoping someone would have commented on this image by now:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/062/2P131868398EFF12BO 
>P2313L2M1.JPG<

What is up with all those dark little markings on the soil? In the 
lower left there's some barbells, and if you look around, there's 
lots of tadpole or barbell shaped dark markings - basically spots 
with tails that sometimes connect to other spots. Tiny sinkholes from 
evaporating ices? Leaking dark stuff? Fungus colonies? There's even a 
USB symbol in the upper left near where the big crack in the large 
rock submerges into the soil. Maybe "they" are trying to communicate 
with the ugly-bag-of-mostly-silicon that's rolling over their tiny 
cities?

What the heck would make those odd markings? The image is from the 
the near-infrared L2, so they're either colder or more (infra) red. 
The barbell marks can be seen in the same positions in another image, 
so apparently they're really there in the soil, I think. If that were 
my rover, I'd hold out the microscope and take a closer look.

- Rick


-------------- images attached --------------
barbells - -
 


USB symbol --
 

-------------- end images ----------------
--============_-1133380061==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Barbells, tadpoles &amp; USB</title></head><body>
<div>I was hoping someone would have commented on this image by
now:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&gt;http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/a<span
></span>ll/2/p/062/2P131868398EFF12BOP2313L2M1.JP<span
></span>G&lt;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>What is up with all those dark little markings on the soil? In
the lower left there's some barbells, and if you look around, there's
lots of tadpole or barbell shaped dark markings - basically spots
with tails that sometimes connect to other spots. Tiny sinkholes from
evaporating ices? Leaking dark stuff? Fungus colonies? There's even a
USB symbol in the upper left near where the big crack in the large
rock submerges into the soil. Maybe &quot;they&quot; are trying to
communicate with the ugly-bag-of-mostly-silicon that's rolling over
their tiny cities?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>What the heck would make those odd markings? The image is from
the the near-infrared L2, so they're either colder or more (infra)
red. The barbell marks can be seen in the same positions in another
image, so apparently they're really there in the soil, I think. If
that were my rover, I'd hold out the microscope and take a closer
look.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>- Rick</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>-------------- images attached --------------</div>
<div>barbells - -</div>
<div>&nbsp;<img
src="cid:v04210100bc71f844067d [10.220.188.4].1.0"></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>USB symbol --</div>
<div><img src="cid:v04210100bc71f844067d [10.220.188.4].1.1"></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>-------------- end images ----------------</div>
</body>
</html>
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MaL6rE12ICr/ABxV49+ifLf/AFNsn2af7wXHX7/x/DFX/9k=
--============_-1133380061==_mr============--

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>In the original photos I thought the central stripes looked like cutter
>marks too. 
>

The tool striations are discussed here:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040225a.html

on the second image down.

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Hey, what's that two leafed sprout doing coming up out of the ground at
>958,663?
>

Buggs Bunny admiring the image of Mickey Mouse that Spirit brushed on 
the rock?  :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 09:54:16 2004
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Yep, I'd have loved to be at mission control when
that first picture of the cut spherule was downloaded.
They must have browned their shorts when they saw
what really looks like internal structure in that
thing. Then the RAT people had to burst the bubble...

What are those inclusions, anyway? Bits of rock?
It's interesting how they show up so well in the
3D pic but hardly at all in the 2D pics.

BTW, here's the RAT homepage with a good picture
of the business end of this creature.

http://www.honeybeerobotics.com/rat.html

Maybe I should stop by Elizabeth St. and say hi,
I'm surprised I haven't run into these folks
before. NYC is a small town. 

It's worth noting that the analysis Terry points
to was released on the same day as the raw pictures.
Clearly there are people on the mission as anxious
as we are to see something beyond the rocks...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:blantont rtpatlanta.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 10:35 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mars stems, marbles, threads


Horace Heffner wrote:

>In the original photos I thought the central stripes looked like cutter
>marks too. 
>

The tool striations are discussed here:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040225a.html

on the second image down.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 09:54:24 2004
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Terry writes:
>Buggs Bunny admiring the image of Mickey Mouse that Spirit brushed on 
>the rock?  :-)

Another crude trick by Michael Eisner to shore up his position
after that blistering 40% no confidence vote.

They're saying today that they could not cut into flat rock. Given
that the tool being used is diamond, does that mean flat
rock is a huge diamond? 8^) They could pay for the next sample
recovery mission by retrieving that one.

K.


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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: Big Martian Rock
Date: 	Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:21:06 -0500
From: 	Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
To: 	knagel gis.net
References: 	<NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEFPEBAA.knagel gis.net>



Keith Nagel wrote:

>They're saying today that they could not cut into flat rock. Given
>that the tool being used is diamond, does that mean flat
>rock is a huge diamond? 8^) They could pay for the next sample
>recovery mission by retrieving that one.
>

Shhhhhhh!  We already have Martians scuttling our probes -- don't get 
DeBeers into the act.

In all fairness to Horace, his discovery *does* look a bit like the 
rabbit imaged early on in Opportunity's mission:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/opportunity/b19_20040304.html



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 10:36:10 2004
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An AP report:

Ohio Nuclear Plant Can Reopen, Agency Says

Published: March 8, 2004 at 1:02 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- An Ohio nuclear plant is being allowed to reopen after a 
two-year shutdown over safety issues stemming from a leaking acid that 
nearly ate through a protective steel reactor cap, the Nuclear Regulatory 
Commission announced Monday.

Corrosion on the reactor vessel at the Davis-Besse plant along Lake Erie 
east of Toledo, Ohio, was the most extensive ever found at a U.S. nuclear 
reactor and led to a review of 68 similar plants nationwide.

NRC officials blamed plant operators for allowing a breakdown in safety 
standards that caused the leak to go unnoticed for years. The plant is 
owned by FirstEnergy Corp., in Akron, Ohio, the same company that a 
U.S.-Canadian government task force said shares much of the blame for the 
Northeast blackout last August. . . .


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 10:38:01 2004
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Subject: Image processing software
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Hi All.

>From that branch of the Government we fondly call,
"Not Invented Here", comes a rather interesting bit
of image processing software 

>http://rsb.info.nih.gov/ij/<

It's written in Java, so it'll work on all your crazy
machines ( sort of ), and it reads that wacky format
NASA uses for it's satellite imaging systems. Plug-in's
galore, but I have no idea how good all this stuff really
is. But it's free as in beer, and who can complain about
the occasion rough edge???

Take a crack at it, Horace, and tell me what you think.

K.

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At 1:22 PM 3/8/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject:        Re: Big Martian Rock
>Date:   Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:21:06 -0500
>From:   Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
>To:     knagel gis.net
>References:     <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEFPEBAA.knagel gis.net>
>
>
>
>Keith Nagel wrote:
>
>>They're saying today that they could not cut into flat rock. Given
>>that the tool being used is diamond, does that mean flat
>>rock is a huge diamond? 8^) They could pay for the next sample
>>recovery mission by retrieving that one.
>>
>
>Shhhhhhh!  We already have Martians scuttling our probes -- don't get
>DeBeers into the act.


It strikes me as more likely that the tool stalled.  Suppose the rock is in
fact not hard, but is thawing, especially under the pressure of the knurled
balls.  The grinder will then advance too fast and stall.



>
>In all fairness to Horace, his discovery *does* look a bit like the
>rabbit imaged early on in Opportunity's mission:
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/opportunity/b19_20040304.html


That though crossed my mind as I clipped out the two leaf image.  I was
wondering at the time if perchance Craig Haynie edited it in there as a
joke.

If it IS the rabbit, that thing sure makes good time travelling around.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: OFF TOPIC Voting machines
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Regarding voting machines and receipts, Diebold and some election officials 
have claimed that it would cost a great deal of money to retrofit the 
machines with printers. I recently served as election clerk, and I 
discovered that these machines are already equipped with printers. The 
debate has taken a surrealistic turn. I wrote a brief technical report 
describing some of the difficulties we experienced at our precinct. Here is 
the paragraph about printers:

Meg Smothers of the League of Women Voters recently said that Georgia has 
28,000 voting machines, and it would cost $15 million to retrofit them with 
printers to produce receipts. [1] That comes to $535 per machine. Yet these 
machines already have printers. They produce a paper receipt at the end of 
the day showing the vote tallies. The printers are the kind used in cash 
registers, and they have large rolls of paper that would easily last 
through the 12 hours the polls remain open. It takes people about a minute 
to cast a ballot, so one machine would need to print at most 720 receipts 
per day. The printer and paper are located on the right side of the 
machine, under a locked metal cover. It would be a simple matter to 
fabricate a new metal equipment cover with an outlet above the printer, 
that would print a receipt for the voter. Based on the retail cost of 
similar metal computer equipment cases available in any computer store, 
this should cost approximately $30 per machine, not $500. The programming 
change would be trivial.

- Jed


1. M. Smothers, "EQUAL TIME: Paper receipts no guarantee," Atlanta 
Journal-Constitution op-ed page, February 23, 2004.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 14:04:50 2004
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>It strikes me as more likely that the tool stalled.  Suppose the rock is in
>fact not hard, but is thawing, especially under the pressure of the knurled
>balls.  The grinder will then advance too fast and stall.
>

Humphrey is a Spirit rock.  These are mostly basalt, right?

>That though crossed my mind as I clipped out the two leaf image.  I was
>wondering at the time if perchance Craig Haynie edited it in there as a
>joke.
>

Not this time.  It's in the raw images from Spirit.

>If it IS the rabbit, that thing sure makes good time travelling around.  8^)
>

Which reminds me of an animation of the tortoise and the hare.  No 
matter how fast the hare ran, the tortoise always showed up ahead of 
him.  We find out in the end that there were a dozen tortoises (tortii?) 
and they were cheating.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 14:19:59 2004
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: LENR-CANR passes 450,000
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We passed 450,000 download last week. Ho-hum. I have become blase. It does 
not seem to be having any effect on public opinion, so I see no reason to 
get excited. Perhaps it is having an unseen, subterranean effect, like the 
colony of ants gradually eating away at a gigantic tree.

I noted a slight shift in Park's latest pronouncement: "Cold fusion, of 
course, still has believers, but not much confirmation." In the past he 
would have said something like "zero confirmation." Maybe he feels the ants 
nibbling away at his feet. I wonder if, perhaps, every time he writes 
something like that he gets a barrage of mail from people who have read 
LENR-CANR.org, and he is getting tired of being told there is evidence. He 
must be getting nervous about Taleyarken and sonofusion, by now. His attack 
against Taleyarken seems unusually shrill, even for him. I detect a slight 
touch of hysteria, or panic.

I believe that Park has done the field of cold fusion a great service, and 
if he did not exist we would have to invent him. His opposition has 
probably not slowed things down any more than they would have been slowed 
anyway, given the widespread antipathy toward cold fusion. Besides, Park 
opposes nearly everything. If he had influence and he could actually stop 
research, progress everywhere would have ground to halt years ago. Park is 
a perfect foil; he puts the opposition to CF in the worst possible light. 
As Hamlet said:

I'll be your foil, Laertes. In mine ignorance
     Your skill shall, like a star i' th' darkest night,
     Stick fiery off indeed.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 15:21:49 2004
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I suggest that when reality is being distorted, someone has something to gain
by the lie. Obviously, Diebold could have added the feature Jed is suggesting
for trivial cost when the machines were manufactured.  The question is, why
was this not done?  The answer is that such a printed receipt would have made
possible the detection of voter fraud.  Therefore, I predict we are witnessing
the destruction of democracy as we know it.  Just think about the diabolical
cleverness of this approach.   The company provides software that tallies the
vote.  No one is allowed to see the software because it is proprietary.  The
voting tally is provided so fast and easily that no one questions the numbers,
nor do they have any way to check the values even if they were suspicious.
The winner is announced on the same day as the voting and everyone goes back
to their lives satisfied that we have finally created a perfect system with no
messy court decisions or ambiguous ballots.  Meanwhile, the winner is chosen
by the owner of the software.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Regarding voting machines and receipts, Diebold and some election officials
> have claimed that it would cost a great deal of money to retrofit the
> machines with printers. I recently served as election clerk, and I
> discovered that these machines are already equipped with printers. The
> debate has taken a surrealistic turn. I wrote a brief technical report
> describing some of the difficulties we experienced at our precinct. Here is
> the paragraph about printers:
>
> Meg Smothers of the League of Women Voters recently said that Georgia has
> 28,000 voting machines, and it would cost $15 million to retrofit them with
> printers to produce receipts. [1] That comes to $535 per machine. Yet these
> machines already have printers. They produce a paper receipt at the end of
> the day showing the vote tallies. The printers are the kind used in cash
> registers, and they have large rolls of paper that would easily last
> through the 12 hours the polls remain open. It takes people about a minute
> to cast a ballot, so one machine would need to print at most 720 receipts
> per day. The printer and paper are located on the right side of the
> machine, under a locked metal cover. It would be a simple matter to
> fabricate a new metal equipment cover with an outlet above the printer,
> that would print a receipt for the voter. Based on the retail cost of
> similar metal computer equipment cases available in any computer store,
> this should cost approximately $30 per machine, not $500. The programming
> change would be trivial.
>
> - Jed
>
> 1. M. Smothers, "EQUAL TIME: Paper receipts no guarantee," Atlanta
> Journal-Constitution op-ed page, February 23, 2004.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 15:56:39 2004
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Voting machines
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Edmund Storms wrote:

 > I suggest that when reality is being distorted, someone has something to 
gain
 > by the lie. Obviously, Diebold could have added the feature Jed is 
suggesting
 > for trivial cost when the machines were manufactured.  The question is, why
 > was this not done?  The answer is that such a printed receipt would have 
made
 > possible the detection of voter fraud.

Many people have realized this by now, including several senators, 
congressmen, and secretaries of state (the local election officials). 
Congress is likely to pass a law making printed receipts mandatory, 
possibly before the next election. Several states have rejected the 
machines. The Diebold Corporation has alarmed many people lately, which may 
trigger action on this bill. The Chief Executive Officer is the head of the 
local Republican party and a major contributor. In a recent fund-raising 
letter he said he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes 
to the president next year." Also, a large chunk of the secret source code 
for the Diebold machine was found on the Internet at a Diebold corporate 
site in a file called "rob-georgia" -- a suspicious moniker, to say the 
least. (Georgia was the first state to adopt these machines, and soon after 
they were brought in several election results came out quite unexpectedly, 
in my opinion.) Some programmers who have seen the code describe it as 
amateur-looking impenetrable "spaghetti code."


 > Therefore, I predict we are witnessing
 > the destruction of democracy as we know it.

That is too extreme, in my opinion. We are seeing a threat to democracy. 
Similar threats have often arisen in the past. The US has a long history of 
vote fraud, ballot stuffing, dead people voting and other election day 
shenanigans. This is merely the latest high tech version of an old shell game.


 > The company provides software that tallies the
 > vote.  No one is allowed to see the software because it is proprietary.  The
 > voting tally is provided so fast and easily that no one questions the 
numbers,
 > nor do they have any way to check the values even if they were suspicious.
 > The winner is announced on the same day as the voting and everyone goes back
 > to their lives satisfied that we have finally created a perfect system 
with no
 > messy court decisions or ambiguous ballots.

This can only happen if the vote is very close. In every major election, 
all over the country, the press stations thousands of people taking exit 
polls, and these exit polls record the vote at each sample precinct to 
within a percent. Usually the margin of error is smaller than the vote 
spread. Therefore, if there is fraud, the exit polls will not reflect the 
total shown by the machine, and it will be obvious to everyone that fraud 
has been committed. Whether it will be possible to do anything about that 
fraud is another question.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 16:19:35 2004
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Hi Ed.

You write:
>The question is, why was this not done?
>The answer is that such a printed receipt would have made
>possible the detection of voter fraud.

It would also allow voters to prove to a third party that
they voted a certain way, thus allowing for the direct
sale of votes. This is why you do not receive confirmation
today.

This is distinct from the issue of having the machines
create a tamper proof record of each transaction. What
really confuses things is that the machine must provide
a verifiable record of votes without identifying the voter,
which would allow the government to track your
voting. A printed record of the total is OK, but only
if the machine can be repeatedly cycled on and
off without losing count.

If you read the now-public collection of emails from
the Diebold development team you'll form a pretty good
idea of how things came about. The warts are plenty,
but not uncommon in the industry. Good security is
still a black art and large corporations tend to
attract the lazy...

I think a bipartisan commission should investigate and
regulate the production and handling of these machines,
too much power is being put into the private sector
and without oversight abuse is inevitable. 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 18:13:01 2004
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At 5:00 PM 3/8/4, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Regarding voting machines and receipts, Diebold and some election officials
>have claimed that it would cost a great deal of money to retrofit the
>machines with printers. I recently served as election clerk, and I
>discovered that these machines are already equipped with printers. The
>debate has taken a surrealistic turn. I wrote a brief technical report
>describing some of the difficulties we experienced at our precinct. Here is
>the paragraph about printers:
>
>Meg Smothers of the League of Women Voters recently said that Georgia has
>28,000 voting machines, and it would cost $15 million to retrofit them with
>printers to produce receipts. [1] That comes to $535 per machine. Yet these
>machines already have printers. They produce a paper receipt at the end of
>the day showing the vote tallies. The printers are the kind used in cash
>registers, and they have large rolls of paper that would easily last
>through the 12 hours the polls remain open. It takes people about a minute
>to cast a ballot, so one machine would need to print at most 720 receipts
>per day. The printer and paper are located on the right side of the
>machine, under a locked metal cover. It would be a simple matter to
>fabricate a new metal equipment cover with an outlet above the printer,
>that would print a receipt for the voter. Based on the retail cost of
>similar metal computer equipment cases available in any computer store,
>this should cost approximately $30 per machine, not $500. The programming
>change would be trivial.
>
>- Jed
>
>
>1. M. Smothers, "EQUAL TIME: Paper receipts no guarantee," Atlanta
>Journal-Constitution op-ed page, February 23, 2004.


What is the idea behind the receipt concept?  If the idea is that the
receipts are placed into a ballot box by the voter for purposes of a
recount, and audit counts, then that may be a useful idea, and certainly
anm improvement over no audit trail at all.  If the voter walks out with
it, then that it seems to me is a not a good idea.

Back in the 80's for some time I was Chairman of the Data Processing Review
Board for the South Central District (State of Alaska elections, reporting
to Lt. Gov Lowell Thomas Jr, and then later to the Director of Elections)
and also chairman of the Data Processing Review Board for the Municiplaity
of Anchorage (Municipal elections, reporting to the Municipal Clerk).  The
Southcentral District is one of three election districts in Alaska.  These
boards were citizen boards appointed to do pre-election ballot counting
software testing and verification, to oversee all election night machine
ballot tabulation, to do post-election software testing, and to certify the
machine counting process prior to the overall election certification.

I'll just mention as a matter of general interest that under protest we
were also on occasion drafted into the role of being machine operators
election night, which we felt undermined our ability to actually focus on
overseeing the process.  It was not a reasonable requirement for a citizen
review board to actually process the ballots, even though the board was
selected only from the local data processing (now called IT) professionals.
Fortunately at the time I was a Systems Programmer, so had plenty of
actual operating experience.  The ballot counting at the time was done on
an IBM 370 using a card reader to read pre-printed voter-punched ballot
cards.  Yes, we were actually involved in placing some ballots with hanging
chad into questioned status, for later manual counting!  However, the
voting booths had card punches which did a good job of punching, so hanging
chad was very rare.  We never used "manual punchout" type cards, where the
chad is removed by stylus, like the ones that caused so much troubla in
Florida.  It is not uncommon, I think, for any such highly visible and
important process to become like a three ring circus act.  We have seen
plenty of that in recent times.

The Anchorage Municipal Clerk and I literally wrote verbatum various
procedures for performance of these duties for purposes of codification
into Alaska Statute, which was done.  One of the things we came up with was
a random selection of at least one critical race from one precinct for
manual counting the night of the election.  This then provided at least
some kind of check on the possibility of the software being triggered to
count differently in a live ballot count, and a disincentive to the
comission of fraud.

One of the things I considered vital in the software validation process is
that the machine not have any data to indicate whether the ballots being
counted were test ballots or live ballots.  Further, the pre-election
certification (test) counts might be run an arbitrary number of times, as
might the post election certification (test) counts.  We ran small tests
and large tests.  We developed a suite of tests.  A major time consuming
part of the review board's effort was the preparation of test ballots.

In my opinion an election carried out without a manually verifyable (e.g.
pre-printed and punched or marked, or voting-time printed) ballot, which,
once in the ballot box is maintained at all times under the scrutiny of law
enforcement, is not an election that can be audited or trusted.

One of the key methods of auditing in Alaska was provided by the unusual
state requirements we had at the time that the pre-printed ballots must
rotate the candidate order. This was done because survey data showed that
many voters are prone to vote for the first name on the ballot they
recognize.  In order to accomodate this, the ballots had punches in the
first columns that identified the ballot type (if there were multiple
ballot cards required, and the race rotations on the ballot.)  These
prepunched numbers could not be used to identify a specic unique ballot,
but, in addition to factilitating rotating candidate lists, were very
useful for verifying by group totals that the ballot box was not stuffed.
That is because ballots sent to a precinct were pre-counted by ballot type.
Unused ballots returned to the central counting location were counted and
the count by ballot type added to those counted as voted.  If the counts
returned did not match the counts for ballots sent, then a manual audit
could be triggered.  Having had this experience, I feel that pre-printed
ballots must be somewhat better than ballot receipts printed at voting
time.  Ballots should have group numbers of some kind on them for batch
totalling to prevent ballot stuffing.  In any event, unused ballots should
be returned to a central location, and overall totals should be tallied.

Pre-printed ballots also have the advantage that voting does not have to
stop even if all the machines break down.  If all machines are down at a
voting location (an experience I had here as a voter during our last
election) then the ballots can simply be placed into a ballot box for later
counting, either by machine or manually.  This is a procedure that was not
followed here recently! Whenthe one and only scanner broke down we had to
hand our ballots to a lady in plain view of all present.  There was no
ballot box present!  The machine hopper acts like a ballot box normally.
Alaska presently uses mark sense paper ballot readers, i.e self-feed
scanners.

My experience tells me that an election without paper ballots is an
election which can not be verified or audited.  It certainly can not be
recounted.  I think an election, to have any credibility, must provide (a)
secrecy of the ballot, no way to tie the vote to the voter, and yet still
provide (b) a means of validation of the process and of recount, all under
the watchful eyes of the press and citizens.  This means to me citizen and
press access to the polling places and to the counting places, though such
access might be limited to a small number of people desginated by various
political parties or affiliations.  It is not possible to do a thorough job
in a circus like atmosphere, so direct citizen oversight has to be
accomodated without the effect of direct intervention and interference in
the process.  It also means that there should be a ballot box protected by
law enforcement, and the use of paper ballots.   There must be an official
chain of control of the ballots at all times, including transportation,
during each counting process and during interim and final storage for a
reasonable period after the election, all under the protection of law
enforcement officers.

It is a sad thing that the press is the WORST force against properly
certifiable elections.  Their voratious demand for speed in vote counting
instead of accuracy in vote counting may well rob us of our democracy.
Distributed machine counting, through voting machines or ballot readers,
goes a long way toward meeting the demands of the press and most of the
public for instant gratification election night.  However, we all have a
responsibility to see that solid verification comes at some point.  Let the
press have its moment of glory, but then here should be no race to
certification.  That should come at a later date.  There is no hurry
because challenged and absentee ballots are not tabulated election night
anyway.  Certification should be a rigorous unrushed process.  For this
reason candidates should not be quickly sworn in nor should issues
determined by election be quickly acted upon in ANY event.  Benefits
afforded to any part by a rush to certification should be avoided as much
as possible.  One way to verify an election might be manual counting at the
polling places.  A much better way in my opinion is recounting by machine
at a central location.  The problem with using lots of machines distributed
around all the polling locations to do the counting and/or recounting is
that software testing and validating becomes nearly impossible.

Voting-time printed receipts, even if placed into a ballot box and used for
later recounting or auditing, would be less than ideal if such ballots were
not reliably machine readable.  If not placed into a protected ballot box,
but rather taken from the polling place, such receipts can be taken by
force from a person exiting the polling place and, if not to the mugger's
satisfaction, then used as a reason to commit mayhem upon the voter.  There
is no election auditability provided by such receipts, due to the loss of
chain of control and auditing totals, and further it corrupts the sanctity
and independence of the votes.

While I'm on my soapbox, I'd like to further voice a desire to see
biometrics used for voter identification, e.g. face scans, retina scans or
fingerprints.  The technology exists now to prevent multiple voting, so why
not use it?

Lastly, I would like to say that in my experience the greatest threat to
our elections process is not bad guys who want to take over the system.
Bad guys can fairly readily be controlled if there are appropriate and not
even very expensive or sophisticated measures taken.  The biggest problem I
personally encountered with establishing fool proof counting standards was
simple naivetι.  Ordinarily reasonable people could not bring themsleves to
think that fraud was possible.  This was true of review board members as
well as overseeing politicians and others in government.  This was true in
spite of the fact it was the official stated duty of the board to prevent
fraud or corruption in the process.  Simple fraud checks, like the avoiding
of setting indicators to the vote counting system, so it could
differentiate between a live vs test vote count, were considered paranoid,
and even offensive to suggest.  Some volunteer board members simply
preferred to go through the motions as quickly as possible rather than even
entertain discussion about the possiblity of fraud, much less
countermeasures.  And of course the press demanding of the high level
polititians that they speed up the process didn't help.  The press doesn't
like sitting around for hours at "election central" with nothing new to say
or news to report.   And then there were the political party types who
wanted capitulation as quickly as possible election night so they could all
go out and get blasted celebrating, rather than making small talk and
waiting around bored in some hotel ballroom until the wee hours of the
morining just for results.  I've seen the enemy to dependable balloting,
and that enemy is us.  It is the inability of we the voters to understand
what is at stake, to open our minds to to the issues and act accordingly.
People simply can not accept the proposition that whenever an electronic
computer, especially a programmable computer, is involved in ballot
counting both fraud and miscounts can and eventually will happen.

Much more likely to corrupt an election than fraud is incompetence, or even
simple mistakes.  Last minute coding or machine settings have to be made
right before an election.  Mistakes are often made - little things, like
crossing the names and the ballot counts.  These kinds of mistakes were
actually detected by our ballot counting test suite.  Without paper ballots
and counting machines, test suites can not even be developed.  Manual tests
of voting machine tabulation can not be duplicated with accuracy, and take
too long to be employed.

These are not just regional or even national issues.  I think one of the
most pressing duties of international law is the establishment of quality
election standards.  I think if a good set of international standards were
set, most US local, state, and national elections would fail miserably in
meeting them.  Even worse, more would fail each election than in prior
elections.  We are heading fast in the wrong direction.  The secrecy and
sanctity of the ballot box is eroding.  And it is only going to get worse.
The concept of "electronic voting", as in via the internet, is inanely
foolish, but it will inevitably be tried.

At one time, long ago, we could count on the integrity of the League of
Women Voters and similar groups to see that ballots were counted correctly.
Now who is minding the watch?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 20:47:17 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Big Martian Rock]
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At 5:04 PM 3/8/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>It strikes me as more likely that the tool stalled.  Suppose the rock is in
>>fact not hard, but is thawing, especially under the pressure of the knurled
>>balls.  The grinder will then advance too fast and stall.
>>
>
>Humphrey is a Spirit rock.  These are mostly basalt, right?


The RAT failed to grind Flat Rock, not Humphrey.  That's at the Opportunity
site.  They'll try again on day 42.  See:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html#opportunity>



>
>>That though crossed my mind as I clipped out the two leaf image.  I was
>>wondering at the time if perchance Craig Haynie edited it in there as a
>>joke.
>>
>
>Not this time.  It's in the raw images from Spirit.
>
>>If it IS the rabbit, that thing sure makes good time travelling around.  8^)
>>
>
>Which reminds me of an animation of the tortoise and the hare.  No
>matter how fast the hare ran, the tortoise always showed up ahead of
>him.  We find out in the end that there were a dozen tortoises (tortii?)
>and they were cheating.


OK, I'll keep my eye peeled for a troublesome tortoise.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mars stems, marbles, threads
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At 10:34 AM 3/8/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>In the original photos I thought the central stripes looked like cutter
>>marks too.
>>
>
>The tool striations are discussed here:
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040225a.html
>
>on the second image down.


The description there simply does not account for the complex structures
now (barely) visible at:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040305a/10-sg-03
>-mckittrick-B041R1.jpg<

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 21:05:38 2004
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From: "SnowDog" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
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Subject: Re: Big Martian Rock
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> They're saying today that they could not cut into flat rock. Given
> that the tool being used is diamond, does that mean flat
> rock is a huge diamond? 8^) They could pay for the next sample
> recovery mission by retrieving that one.

I think this is it:

http://69.57.146.76/golddirectory/mars/mars8.htm

Craig Haynie

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> > They're saying today that they could not cut into flat rock. Given
> > that the tool being used is diamond, does that mean flat
> > rock is a huge diamond? 8^) They could pay for the next sample
> > recovery mission by retrieving that one.
>
> I think this is it:
>
> http://69.57.146.76/golddirectory/mars/mars8.htm
>
> Craig Haynie

Oh, right! FlatRock is an Opportunity rock.

While I'm here, I have to comment on this thing:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131655288EFF0544P2971M2M1.JPG

Two notes:

1) There's that ridge again, that appears in almost all of these things.
What kind of secretion process could be so consistent with such an anomaly?

2) The object is distorted and shiny, like a ripe piece of fruit or
something. I can imagine a natural process which creates a shiny surface,
through either weathering, or secretion, but I cannot imagine a natural
process which looks so distorted, yet has shiny parts in the surface. This
is the type of thing that ones sees in plants.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/041/1M131831010EFF0574P2951M2M1.JPG

Another example of the ridge on the side of this thing, and it isn't a shiny
one.

Craig Haynie

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 21:32:20 2004
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Voting machines
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 09 March 2004 02:44
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Voting machines


> Hi Ed.
>
> You write:
> >The question is, why was this not done?
> >The answer is that such a printed receipt would have made
> >possible the detection of voter fraud.
>
> It would also allow voters to prove to a third party that
> they voted a certain way, thus allowing for the direct
> sale of votes. This is why you do not receive confirmation
> today.
>
> This is distinct from the issue of having the machines
> create a tamper proof record of each transaction. What
> really confuses things is that the machine must provide
> a verifiable record of votes without identifying the voter,
> which would allow the government to track your
> voting. A printed record of the total is OK, but only
> if the machine can be repeatedly cycled on and
> off without losing count.

Anonymity is not difficult to implement using cryptographical methods.
For the start, let machine assign a unique number on the receipt
and make publicly available this number and the corresponding vote
within a list covering all used and unused votes. Cryptography ensure this
receipt number is NOT somehow related to identity of the voter, but still
the voter ability prove this number  belong to him, and the voting system
ability to prove the counted vote is belong to this number.

This allow the receipt owner directly verify his vote is processed.
Cryptographic methods would be implemented to ensure the voter
his vote is counted properly and only real votes are counted.
In principle the cryptographic system should be set in order nor the
voting machines and nor an other party need be trusted.

As these cryptographic methods are well known and available since long time,
accepting an electronic voting system avoid from these methods and even
without receipt capability is the direct evidence of malpractice against
democracy.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 21:55:40 2004
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Hi Hamdi.

You write:
>Anonymity is not difficult to implement using cryptographical methods.
>For the start, let machine assign a unique number on the receipt
>and make publicly available this number and the corresponding vote
>within a list covering all used and unused votes. Cryptography ensure this
>receipt number is NOT somehow related to identity of the voter, but still
>the voter ability prove this number  belong to him, and the voting system
>ability to prove the counted vote is belong to this number.

If I understand you correctly, I can still prove I voted Republicrat
in the election. Why doesn't this allow me to sell my vote?

K

PS: Any word from Podkletnov?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar  8 22:16:24 2004
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Get a look at the fuzzballs in this Opportunity photo:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131648609EFF0544P2951
M2M1.JPG>

They appear to be dead and decaying.  The one at the top right appears
to have broken off from a joined pair.  It sure is fuzzy on the top side.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 5:04 PM 3/8/4, Terry Blanton wrote:

>Humphrey is a Spirit rock.  These are mostly basalt, right?


Supposedly, but I'm not so sure.  Look at Craig's second photo:

<http://69.57.146.76/golddirectory/mars/Spirit060_456_2.jpg>

You can see that the RAT knurled ball (at the bottom) really dug into the
rock.  That seems far too soft for basalt.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2623746

- Rick

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Voting machines
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Horace Heffner writes:

 > What is the idea behind the receipt concept?  If the idea is that the
 > receipts are placed into a ballot box by the voter for purposes of a
 > recount, and audit counts, then that may be a useful idea, and certainly
 > anm improvement over no audit trail at all.

That's the idea. The voter would verify the paper is correct and then drop 
it into a ballot box.


 > My experience tells me that an election without paper ballots is an
 > election which can not be verified or audited.

Right. See: http://www.verifiedvoting.org/


 > It is a sad thing that the press is the WORST force against properly
 > certifiable elections.  Their voratious demand for speed in vote counting
 > instead of accuracy in vote counting . . .

I do not think the press is at fault. They know the outcome hours before 
the polls close, from exit polling. Historically, politicians were the 
driving force behind rapid vote counting. This tradition began in the 1850s 
in the US, with the spread of telegraphs. In the 1860 election, Lincoln 
knew the results before midnight. Information already moved as rapidly as 
it did in 1960. Since the 1960s, polling and computer projections have 
improved tremendously. Actually, that eliminates the drama for the 
politicians and members of the press. The only people who do not know the 
outcome by 3:00 p.m. are the voters. Of course very tight elections such as 
Florida in 2000 remain unresolved. Actually, long after that election, the 
New York Times and other news organizations paid a large sum of money to 
have the Florida votes recounted again carefully. They found that Bush won, 
after all.

Turnout was low on March 2, so I had plenty of time to look around the 
room. I took note of the data being collected, and what may or may not be 
recorded in the machines. (No one outside of Diebold knows.) If individual 
transaction records are stored, I figured out some rather simple ways to 
correlate voters with ballots, in order to buy votes.

- Jed


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 09 March 2004 08:21
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Voting machines


> Hi Hamdi.
>
> You write:
> >Anonymity is not difficult to implement using cryptographic methods.
> >For the start, let machine assign a unique number on the receipt
> >and make publicly available this number and the corresponding vote
> >within a list covering all used and unused votes. Cryptography ensure this
> >receipt number is NOT somehow related to identity of the voter, but still
> >the voter ability prove this number  belong to him, and the voting system
> >ability to prove the counted vote is belong to this number.
>
> If I understand you correctly, I can still prove I voted Republicrat
> in the election. Why doesn't this allow me to sell my vote?
>
> K

It depends to the scheme of how the receipt number is produced.
Seller must prove the receipt number is really belong to him, because
it may possible to find somebody else's receipts in trash cans.

For example the receipt number may embed a hashed value of a secret
phrase (a long string) that only voter knows, therefore it can prove to buyer or
to voting system by telling this phrase. Public key encryption surely will
provide more smart solutions and will even allow voter authenticity without
exposing
his secret phrase.


> PS: Any word from Podkletnov?
>
Unfortunately, no.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  9 07:08:41 2004
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Subject: Re: Big Martian Rock
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At 11:24 PM 3/8/4, SnowDog wrote:

>While I'm here, I have to comment on this thing:
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/039/1M131655288EFF0544P2971M
>2M1.JPG
>
>Two notes:
>
>1) There's that ridge again, that appears in almost all of these things.
>What kind of secretion process could be so consistent with such an anomaly?

Try freezing and thawing.  Frost on the berry.  It thaws.  It's wet.



>
>2) The object is distorted and shiny, like a ripe piece of fruit or
>something. I can imagine a natural process which creates a shiny surface,
>through either weathering, or secretion, but I cannot imagine a natural
>process which looks so distorted, yet has shiny parts in the surface. This
>is the type of thing that ones sees in plants.
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/041/1M131831010EFF0574P2951M
>2M1.JPG
>
>Another example of the ridge on the side of this thing, and it isn't a shiny
>one.
>
>Craig Haynie

It getting frustrating, but I'll try too make the case yet again.  There
are lots of features of terrestrial lichen in the Mars photos.  Examples:

Little balls on stalks in sulpherous environment:

<http://www.lichen.com/bigpix/Cfurfuracea.html>

Lots of little balls with holes in the ends sitting on the surface:

<http://www.lichen.com/bigpix/Cfurfuracea.html>

Little balls with EXACTLY the same surface features as
seen on Mars see:

<http://www.lichen.com/bigpix/Dbaeomyces.html>

Or if you want to see shiney wet fruiting bodies see:

<http://www.lichen.com/bigpix/Llinita.html>

It just does not take a lot of imagination to see that a species of
lichen with many of these combined qualites could evolve.   Lichen can
grow on rocks or sand.  It is self-sufficient, given a source of light,
minerals, and water.  It can grow in artic conditions and high
altitudes.   Some species can even grow at Mars atmospheric pressure.
This is a just a  nobrainer.

The NASA people should buy the lichen book advertised at

<http://www.lichen.com> or better yet get the experts themselves.

The only real strech of imagination required is to see that all that white
stuff showing up in the photos is frozen water.

As for the problem grinding Flat Rock, I guess it is simply pretty hard to
grind a sponge-like material with a low power grinder designed to be
positioned on hard rock.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 8:51 AM 3/9/4, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
> > It is a sad thing that the press is the WORST force against properly
> > certifiable elections.  Their voratious demand for speed in vote counting
> > instead of accuracy in vote counting . . .
>
>I do not think the press is at fault. They know the outcome hours before
>the polls close, from exit polling. Historically, politicians were the
>driving force behind rapid vote counting.


In my experience this was not the case.  The press demanded quicker results
(from the politicians in office).  They got it at the expense of reduced
trustworthyness of the election results.  It is ultimately the politicians
that effect the changes in technology, but they are highly motivated by a
critical press.  If the press were pushing for quality instead of pushing
for speed we'd get quality instead of speed.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  9 07:18:53 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Voting machines
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At 4:08 PM 3/9/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
> Public key encryption surely will
>provide more smart solutions and will even allow voter authenticity without
>exposing
>his secret phrase.


Absolutely NO public key system can be trusted.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Arf... Shades of Mars Polar Lander, Euro-style.

Absolutely bizarre how blame-shifting evasiveness seems semi-official and 
ingrained at all levels and nationalities. Why not just blame Satan ? 
Equally bizarre: why hadn't they learned from NASA's recent past and 
prepared a ready-made "whipping boy," waiting in the wings?

Satan makes about as much scientific sense as a UFO (and might even 
create just as catchy a headline to sell your newspaper)... esp/ if they 
could find "666" was written somewhere on the craft... but I guess, 
thanks to such non sequiturs as Operation-Iraqi-Freedom, "evil" itself 
doesn't automatically entitle one to the same level of increased-funding (in-the-face-of-abject-failure) that it once did.

... or (if Satan is too declasse for the Euro-secularists) what about 
the situation being the fault of a ghost ... yes, yes... a Yankee ghost to 
boot... how about Snoopy say, or what about the ghost of one of LBJ's 
Beagles (was it Him or Her).

Don't we find it equally (even more) astounding when that they do admit 
to the possibility that Beagle 2 succumbed to human error, it was only 
that it " simply crashed onto the surface of Mars because the atmosphere 
on the planet was less dense than expected."

Whoa! How could they not have that number pegged to 10 decimal points... 
Heads would have already rolled in private industry - where at least there is some degree of accountability (at the lower levels, at least)... and of course the Japanese have the good sense, if someone had miscalculated the Mars atmospheric density to such an extent that it caused such a devastating failure and loss of face ... well, here in the States that remedy, as effective as it is, only brings to mind the name of a sportscaster.

But, isn't it ironic that the massive cost of this failure has insulated the 
perpetrator beyond all reproach.... and gotten the wheels of mass-denial 
in full motion. In December 1999 when contact with the Mars Polar Lander 
was never regained after its scheduled touchdown, NASA not only had a 
"whipping boy" waiting for just that king of tragedy ("software glitch" 
and/or "budget cuts") they had a "failure review board" already picked, 
or so it seems. But even that is not enough. At that level, you need to 
*benefit* from your worst mistakes in order to stay ahead of the game.

So, later when blame was diverted and funding levels needed to be 
replenished, it was leaked that a spy satellite from the mysterious 
"National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA)" has been quietly scanning 
Mars pictures," According to a "source close to the NIMA" (i.e. a 
planned leak), photographic specialists think they spotted something 
very unusual (more intrigue and vague innuendo). But NASA officials 
quickly counter that it's too early to tell... and then the story fades 
to black (of course, maybe they had spotted the same UFO that got to 
Beagle).

However if you want bizarre preplanned excuses, I had recently be 
planning to post one to vortex for the benefit of future NASA missions - 
one that would top them all - "Mar's sinister secret" it could be called 
(a left-handed chirality on Mars ?). But I'll save that one for a slow 
day...

Jones




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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>  > I suggest that when reality is being distorted, someone has something to
> gain
>  > by the lie. Obviously, Diebold could have added the feature Jed is
> suggesting
>  > for trivial cost when the machines were manufactured.  The question is, why
>  > was this not done?  The answer is that such a printed receipt would have
> made
>  > possible the detection of voter fraud.
>
> Many people have realized this by now, including several senators,
> congressmen, and secretaries of state (the local election officials).
> Congress is likely to pass a law making printed receipts mandatory,
> possibly before the next election. Several states have rejected the
> machines. The Diebold Corporation has alarmed many people lately, which may
> trigger action on this bill. The Chief Executive Officer is the head of the
> local Republican party and a major contributor. In a recent fund-raising
> letter he said he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes
> to the president next year." Also, a large chunk of the secret source code
> for the Diebold machine was found on the Internet at a Diebold corporate
> site in a file called "rob-georgia" -- a suspicious moniker, to say the
> least. (Georgia was the first state to adopt these machines, and soon after
> they were brought in several election results came out quite unexpectedly,
> in my opinion.) Some programmers who have seen the code describe it as
> amateur-looking impenetrable "spaghetti code."

I would be more reassured when I see widespread rejection of the machines.
Instead, I see favorable articles and great praise.  While people of knowledge,
such as yourself, raise concerns occasionally, I see no indication that such facts
are having any effect on the eventual use of the machines.  As Keith points out,
most people do not have a clue about the reality, instead see only the
convenience.  In addition, powerful people have been given a useful tool for
getting their way.  This tool will not be given up easily by either the ignorant
or the powerful no matter how much reality is argued by the experts.

>
>
>  > Therefore, I predict we are witnessing
>  > the destruction of democracy as we know it.
>
> That is too extreme, in my opinion. We are seeing a threat to democracy.
> Similar threats have often arisen in the past. The US has a long history of
> vote fraud, ballot stuffing, dead people voting and other election day
> shenanigans. This is merely the latest high tech version of an old shell game.

All very true. However, as time goes by, all faults of society grow in magnitude.
At what level do the faults become so large that the society in general is put at
risk?  I suggest that universal use of such machines is not like the past when a
few elections were rigged.  Now, all elections can be rigged in a way that average
people will not understand.  Once an election is rigged, the people who are
"elected" using this tool will have a great self interest in maintaining the flaw
that got them "elected".  Who will then have the power to correct the system?

>
>
>  > The company provides software that tallies the
>  > vote.  No one is allowed to see the software because it is proprietary.  The
>  > voting tally is provided so fast and easily that no one questions the
> numbers,
>  > nor do they have any way to check the values even if they were suspicious.
>  > The winner is announced on the same day as the voting and everyone goes back
>  > to their lives satisfied that we have finally created a perfect system
> with no
>  > messy court decisions or ambiguous ballots.
>
> This can only happen if the vote is very close. In every major election,
> all over the country, the press stations thousands of people taking exit
> polls, and these exit polls record the vote at each sample precinct to
> within a percent. Usually the margin of error is smaller than the vote
> spread. Therefore, if there is fraud, the exit polls will not reflect the
> total shown by the machine, and it will be obvious to everyone that fraud
> has been committed. Whether it will be possible to do anything about that
> fraud is another question.

This is a good point.  However, if Bush can be elected when it is obvious, based
on actual vote count that he was defeated, what effect would you expect from a few
exit polls done by people who would be rejected because they were said to be
partisan?  If we had a healthy system, I would agree with your optimism.  However,
we do not have a healthy system, but one that keeps getting sicker.  Ask yourself,
why are the elections so close when most voters are clearly not voting consistent
with their self interests?  Why is the average person so deluded about so many
aspects of reality?  What happens to a society when its policies are based on
delusion rather than on reality?

Ed

>
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  9 09:11:10 2004
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Subject: OT: An Anomalous SETI Signal
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http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m08-007.shtml

1) See http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040307.html and hear the signal
(http://www.setileague.org/software/unknown2.wav)

2) See http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/bcornet/bcornet10.html and hear the
sound record wav18 (http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/bcornet/Wav18.wav)

The high pitch background sound at wav18  sound very similar.

I have also another wav from that site with similar to seti signal but I did not
yet found the web link.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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hamdix iris.com.tr wrote:

>I have also another wav from that site with similar to seti signal but I did not
>yet found the web link.
>

It reminds me of Dr. McCoy's body scanner on Star Trek.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  9 10:30:09 2004
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Subject: Re: UFO killed the Beagle?
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEFPEBAA.knagel gis.net> <005a01c40594$21c5b400$6401a8c0@Craig> <008801c40596$d02f4a90$6401a8c0@Craig> <v04210104bc73243d80ff@[10.220.188.4]>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2623746
>

Here's the piccy:

http://www.beagle2.com/resources/down-separation.htm

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See:

<http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RoutRKcopiouslow.pdf>http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RoutRKcopiouslow.pdf

I have asked the author for better pictures of the autoradiographs in this 
paper.

-  Jed


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Edmund Storms writes:

 > I would be more reassured when I see widespread rejection of the machines.
 > Instead, I see favorable articles and great praise.  While people of 
knowledge,
 > such as yourself, raise concerns occasionally, I see no indication that 
such facts
 > are having any effect on the eventual use of the machines.

There are many indications that changes will be made soon. Maryland has 
rejected the machines. California is demanding a paper receipt, in 
California is the largest market, so it will probably set the standard for 
everyone. Dozens of articles criticizing the machine have appeared in 
widely read publications including the New York Times, the Atlanta Journal, 
and Wired magazine. US congressmen and senators have introduced bills 
demanding paper receipts. A similar bill is under consideration in the 
Georgia State Senate. Finally, here is a funny animated cartoon about the 
subject:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/02/04/fiorevoting.DTL


 > This tool will not be given up easily by either the ignorant
 > or the powerful no matter how much reality is argued by the experts.

The campaign against the machines is rapidly gaining ground, as far as I 
can tell.


 > All very true. However, as time goes by, all faults of society grow in 
magnitude.

Perhaps, but so do the solutions sometimes. The first worldwide epidemic to 
spread rapidly via modern transportation came in 1918. It killed roughly 50 
million people, which was more than the four years of war preceding it. The 
speed and scope of transportation has increased tremendously since then, 
yet the recent SARS and avian influenza outbreaks were both stopped dead, 
even though we have no vaccine for either disease.

Also, it is hard to imagine social faults or malign technologies worse than 
those of World War I and WWII, which included everything from machine guns 
and poison gas to nuclear weapons. There has not been a World War III, and 
I doubt there ever will be. People seem to be learning a lesson. I think is 
obvious that people do learn, and societies do change, since the world has 
changed so many times in the past 5,000 years.


 > Once an election is rigged, the people who are
 > "elected" using this tool will have a great self interest in maintaining 
the flaw
 > that got them "elected".  Who will then have the power to correct the 
system?

The voters will still have power. You can only rig an election to a certain 
extent. Anything over 5% would be obvious from pre-election polling and 
exit polling. There would be widespread riots and a police investigation of 
the machines.


 > >  > The company provides software that tallies the
 > >  > vote.  No one is allowed to see the software because it is 
proprietary.  The
 > >  > voting tally is provided so fast and easily that no one questions the
 > > numbers . . .

People are questioning the numbers all over the US, and in the Congress!


 > This is a good point.  However, if Bush can be elected when it is 
obvious, based
 > on actual vote count that he was defeated . . .

That is incorrect. The New York Times and other news organizations paid for 
a careful recount of the Florida ballots, and they determined that Bush 
did, in fact, win. He did not win a plurality of votes in the entire US, 
but that is because of the Constitution and the Electoral College.

- Jed


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Subject: A relatively easy CF experiment from 1991 - again
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Here the URL again:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RoutRKcopiouslow.pdf

I do not know why this e-mail program has been repeating the hyperlink like 
that.

-  Jed


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
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It would be very interesting to see the outcome of a civil suit, which is
based upon the preponderance of evidence, demanding a new election for a
close race based on the fact that there is polling evidence which shows
that the election results are bogus, or based on the closeness of a race,
and the fact that there is no recount available.  I seems to me it is clear
malfeasance to not provide a means of election validation and recount.  It
would be of great interest how a jury which has heard expert testimony
would decide.  It would set an enormously important precident.  Can you
imagine the scamble to produce paper records if such a suit prevailed?
Running an entire election is far more expensive than doing a recount.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:18:02 -0500
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Warning about your e-mail account.
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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I note your comments about interference with email.

Can you please change my email address from my Compuserve address i.e.
100060,173 to my Internet address namely:  norman.horwood btinternet.com

I find that the spam control is far better now that BT seem to have
introduced good spam filtering at their server.

Thank you,  Norman Horwood

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
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On Tuesday 09 March 2004 12:13, hamdix iris.com.tr wrote:
> http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m08-007.shtml
>
> 1) See http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040307.html and hear the signal
> (http://www.setileague.org/software/unknown2.wav)
>
> 2) See http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/bcornet/bcornet10.html and hear the
> sound record wav18 (http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/bcornet/Wav18.wav)
>
> The high pitch background sound at wav18  sound very similar.
>
> I have also another wav from that site with similar to seti signal but I
> did not yet found the web link.
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar

Hello All,
    Very strange that signal.  I use linux for all my internet activity, so 
have more than the usual amount of audio software and all of it free.
I have a program called XMMS.   There is a libiris plug in for it that
provides a '3D analyzer'.  
   The output of this file when played into this plug in for the sound
program comes up with a series of geometric figures in three
dimensional space.  One is a green as grass lissajous pattern that
looks as if made of a round 'lady finger' composed of interlocking
sine waves woven into the lissajoux.  Another is a square kind of
checkerboard that shrinks and grows. And rotates in a three
dimensional field.        There are others.  Those of
you that use Linux 9 from S.u.S.E. and have XMMS can see for
yourselves.  Perhaps there is a local logical explanation for this
akin to the visualizer in windows media player.   The Iris plug-in was
called an 'analyzer' and not a  visualizer though.

Standing Bear
rockcast earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar  9 22:37:21 2004
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:38:06 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: FW: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, March 05, 2004
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>At 10:01 PM 3/5/4, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>>Parksie writes:
>>
>>>The
>>>only place a missile could be coming from is Russia, and that's
>>>  why we still maintain a deterrent.
>>
>>
>>Has this guy ever heard of North Korea? Honolulu, among others, could be
>>that city. We're within range.
>>
>>- Rick
>
>So is much of Alaska, including the Alyeska Pipeline, Anchorage and my
>little hometown Palmer.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

It's the whole West Coast that's within range.

I noticed that Parksie couldn't resist taking a swipe at sonofusion. 
I wonder what I can find on the LENR-CANR website if I searched under 
sonofusion and radio neuclide remediation.

>

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:11:30 -0500
Subject: Park still twitching
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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The more things change, the more they stay the same...

 - Gene Mallove    www.infinite-energy.com



>From Robert Park's What's New

WHAT'S NEW, Friday, 5 May 1989 Washington, DC

1. THE CORPSE OF COLD FUSION WILL PROBABLY CONTINUE TO TWITCH
for awhile, even after two nights of unrelenting assaults at the APS
Baltimore Meeting. Perhaps the most devastating paper was by Cal Tech
chemist Nathan Lewis. Scientists attempting to replicate the Pons-Fleishmann
experiment reconstructed the Utah "fusion" cell from press photographs,
calibrating by the width of Pon's wrist. It is at the same time amusing and
outrageous. The details have presumably been shared only with companies that
sign a contract with the University of Utah. Pons and Fleishmann said they
were too busy preparing for a Congressional visit (WN 28 Apr 89) to speak in
Baltimore. However, Pons was rumored to be in Washington this week to meet
with White House Chief of Staff John Sununu. A call to Sununu's office to
check out the rumor produced one of those exquisite exchanges that make life
in Washington enjoyable: "Is Gov. Sununu to meet with Professor Pons?" we
asked, "I cannot confirm that," the voice replied, "since the meeting is
private." But when the time came, Sununu stood Pons up. Fortunes change.

WHAT'S NEW, Friday, 14 July 1989 Washington, DC
 

4. THE CORPSE OF COLD FUSION FINALLY STOPPED TWITCHING THIS WEEK
when the DOE Cold Fusion Panel drafted its interim report. It took only four
pages to establish that no persuasive evidence of cold fusion exists and
that new efforts to find cold fusion are not justified. The panel carefully
distinguished between reports of cold fusion at very low levels, which might
justify modest support, and claims of cold fusion producing measurable
excess energy, for which no substantial expenditure is recommended.



Friday, March 5, 2004

3. BUBBLE FUSION: CORPSE OF "SONOFUSION" IS SAID TO BE TWITCHING.
A new claim of desktop fusion from collapsing bubbles is coming out. ItΉs
been two years since Taleyarken et al. at Oak Ridge National Laboratory
reported in Science magazine that they had observed 2.5 MeV neutron peaks
correlated with sonoluminescence from collapsing bubbles (WN 01 Mar 02), but
others could not confirm their results. By mid summer the bubble had burst
(WN 26 Jul 02). That was remarkably similar to the lifetime of cold fusion.
But now Taleyarken has new results that some say are more convincing.
Perhaps we should wait for independent confirmation. Cold fusion, of course,
still has believers, but not much confirmation. 


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Reply-To: <dwiegel comcast.net>
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Subject: MARS Spirit .. CD Rock?
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:03:44 -0700
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A "VERY VERY" Round rock?  Is being shown in some of the latest Photos.


Panoramic Camera :: Sol 065

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133848ESF1500P25
34R2M1.JPG


http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133713ESF1500P25
34L4M1.JPG


Microscopic Imager:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/065/2M132132493EFF1500P29
58M2M1.JPG



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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC Woman tries to use a million dollar bill in
  Wal-mart
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This really happened, here in Atlanta. See:

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/0304a/10fakebill.html#

It goes to show how dumb people can be.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: MARS Spirit .. CD Rock?
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At 1:03 AM 3/10/4, Don Wiegel wrote:
>A "VERY VERY" Round rock?  Is being shown in some of the latest Photos.
>
>
>Panoramic Camera :: Sol 065
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133848ESF1500P25
>34R2M1.JPG
>
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133713ESF1500P25
>34L4M1.JPG
>
>
>Microscopic Imager:
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/065/2M132132493EFF1500P29
>58M2M1.JPG

That may actually be an impression in the "soil" and not a disk.  It looks
like the front end of a spectrometer was pushed into the ground there.
Note that the shadow at the top goes the wrong direction for the thing to
be a disk.  Compare to the rock shadows.

The thing I find most interesting is that the soil has a crust that looks
like crustose lichen, like some of the soil at the Opportunity site.  It
also compresses like lichen, showing the white flat compressed frost-like
mottled surface like the Opportunity photos.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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> >1) There's that ridge again, that appears in almost all of these =
things.
> >What kind of secretion process could be so consistent with such an
anomaly?
>
> Try freezing and thawing.  Frost on the berry.  It thaws.  It's wet.

[...]

> It getting frustrating, but I'll try too make the case yet again.  =
There
> are lots of features of terrestrial lichen in the Mars photos.  =
Examples:

Horace, I'm with you, but this is my point. The NASA explanation doesn't =
yet
make sense to me. They're moving Opportunity over to 'Blueberry Bowl' =
where
they will run the APX on the blue berries. I'm betting that they're not
going to find what they think they're going to find.

Craig Haynie (Houston)

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt; &gt;1)=20
There's that ridge again, that appears in almost all of these =
things.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;What kind of secretion process could be so consistent with such=20
an<BR>anomaly?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Try freezing and thawing.&nbsp; Frost on =
the=20
berry.&nbsp; It thaws.&nbsp; It's wet.<BR><BR>[...]<BR><BR>&gt; It =
getting=20
frustrating, but I'll try too make the case yet again.&nbsp; =
There<BR>&gt; are=20
lots of features of terrestrial lichen in the Mars photos.&nbsp;=20
Examples:<BR><BR>Horace, I'm with you, but this is my point. The NASA=20
explanation doesn't yet<BR>make sense to me. They're moving Opportunity =
over to=20
'Blueberry Bowl' where<BR>they will run the APX on the blue berries. I'm =
betting=20
that they're not<BR>going to find what they think they're going to=20
find.<BR><BR>Craig Haynie =
(Houston)</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: [Off Topic] Big Martian Rock
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:07:42 -0500
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Craig wrote:

> >1) There's that ridge again, that appears in almost all of these things.
> >What kind of secretion process could be so consistent with such an
anomaly?
>
> Try freezing and thawing.  Frost on the berry.  It thaws.  It's wet.

[...]

> It getting frustrating, but I'll try too make the case yet again.  There
> are lots of features of terrestrial lichen in the Mars photos.  Examples:

Horace, I'm with you, but this is my point. The NASA explanation doesn't yet
make sense to me. They're moving Opportunity over to 'Blueberry Bowl' where
they will run the APX on the blue berries. I'm betting that they're not
going to find what they think they're going to find.
----------------------
MC: Try budding for size. An image that was discussed a while back shows a
bluberry resting on a rock surface, with a well formed bulge on one side
demarked by a clean line, as if a smaller sphere were trying to push out
from inside the larger sphere. In the shadow below there is a strong
suggestion of filaments extending from the bud to the 'rock' below.

One could dismiss the filaments, extept for the robust-appearing stalk
holding a blueberry above the ground surface in another recent image.

Horace may be on target comparing these to lichens and fruiting bodies.
However, there are bacteria that reproduce by budding. Fruiting bodies are,
I believe, spore-dispersers. Terrestrial models are proper for showing what
is possible, but Martian life is by definition exotic. The solar energy
input is less than here, so the life processes may be much slower; that does
not mean they stop.

Mike Carrell


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With regards to our democracy being stolen

Ed Storms opined, and Jed Rothwell responded

>  Therefore, I predict we are witnessing
>  the destruction of democracy as we know it.

That is too extreme, in my opinion. We are seeing a threat to 
democracy. Similar

Ed's pessimism reminds me of my Dad, I used to say, what's your 
pessimistic opinion?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 10 10:13:31 2004
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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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thomas malloy wrote:

> With regards to our democracy being stolen
>
> Ed Storms opined, and Jed Rothwell responded
>
> >  Therefore, I predict we are witnessing
> >  the destruction of democracy as we know it.
>
> That is too extreme, in my opinion. We are seeing a threat to
> democracy. Similar
>
> Ed's pessimism reminds me of my Dad, I used to say, what's your
> pessimistic opinion?

I excuse my pessimism, as I'm sure your Dad did in the same way, by
pointing out the fact that I have lived long enough to see the major
trend, something younger people have not had time to see.  Trends go
through cycles with a time constant that is longer than individual
experience, so it takes a lifetime for an individual to gain enough
experience to see them.  Granted Jed, who is a student of history, can
point out that the trends always reverse, which is true.  However,
they will not reverse in my lifetime, which is the fact that is
important to me and a fact that should be important to the present
generation.  As I'm sure Horace would agree, if age has any benefit,
it allows a person to distill truth from bullshit, of which there is a
great quantity these days.  Young people tend to believe the bullshit
because they have no reason to think their respected elders would
lie.  Only experience removes these optimistic myths.  As a result the
old get short tempered and pessimistic because they recognize the
lies, the incompetence, and the eventual disaster.  Once things get
bad enough, changes are made, but this is only after many optimistic
people are hurt.  I, for one, am too old to afford optimism, although
I prefer it to pessimism.

Ed


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Subject: Re: MARS Spirit .. CD Rock?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 10 March 2004 16:59
Subject: Re: MARS Spirit .. CD Rock?


> At 1:03 AM 3/10/4, Don Wiegel wrote:
> >A "VERY VERY" Round rock?  Is being shown in some of the latest Photos.
> >
> >
> >Panoramic Camera :: Sol 065
> >
> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133848ESF1500P25
> >34R2M1.JPG
> >
> >
> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133713ESF1500P25
> >34L4M1.JPG
> >
> >
> >Microscopic Imager:
> >
> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/065/2M132132493EFF1500P29
> >58M2M1.JPG
>
> That may actually be an impression in the "soil" and not a disk.  It looks
> like the front end of a spectrometer was pushed into the ground there.
> Note that the shadow at the top goes the wrong direction for the thing to
> be a disk.  Compare to the rock shadows.

You are right on that. See sol 64 picture of this spot before mark is created:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/f/064/2F132046391EFF1500P1210R0M1.HTML

and the picture how the mark is being created:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/f/065/2F132128242EDN1500P1121L0M1.HTML

It is remarkable that brightness of the soil increased so much by the impression
and digging making it so darker.

It is also interesting if this was not made by the rover, it very probable that
somebody propose a reasonable answer
relied to a natural process.

>
> The thing I find most interesting is that the soil has a crust that looks
> like crustose lichen, like some of the soil at the Opportunity site.  It
> also compresses like lichen, showing the white flat compressed frost-like
> mottled surface like the Opportunity photos.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner


Regards,
hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 10 13:58:55 2004
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Edmund Storms writes:

 > I excuse my pessimism, as I'm sure your Dad did in the same way, by
 > pointing out the fact that I have lived long enough to see the major
 > trend, something younger people have not had time to see.  Trends go
 > through cycles with a time constant that is longer than individual
 > experience, so it takes a lifetime for an individual to gain enough
 > experience to see them.

As far as I know, older people are no more pessimistic or optimistic than 
younger people. Apparently, life teaches different lessons to different people.

It is widely believed that older people are more conservative than younger 
people. In other words, conventional wisdom has it that people become more 
conservative as they age. This is probably a myth. Public opinion research 
shows that people tend to form political opinions in their youth and hold 
them the rest of their lives. This is why people in their eighties tend to 
be more liberal than those in their twenties today. The old people came of 
age during the Great Depression when New Deal liberal policies were popular 
with the majority of voters. Large numbers of people seldom change their 
political views except in response to a traumatic historical upheaval such 
as the Great Depression or WWII.

In science, we expect Young Turks to champion new discoveries and push for 
changes, while the old fight a losing battle for the status quo. Perhaps 
this is the natural order of things, since young people come along after 
old people, and they are tabula rasa, with no stake in the present order 
and nothing to lose by championing new ideas. But, as we have seen, in cold 
fusion old scientists have taken the lead, while young ones resist change. 
This is a generational role reversal. I think it was caused by the 
traumatic events of the 1930s and 1940s, the very same forces that created 
all those octogenarian New Dealers. Freeman Dyson wrote: ". . . [The] 
experiences of World War II made an indelible impression on people of my 
generation. At the bottom of our hearts we still believe you can have 
anything you want in five years if you need it badly enough and if you are 
prepared to slog your way through the barriers of confusion and 
incompetence to get it. . . . The accepted wisdom says that, no matter what 
we decide to do about economic problems, we cannot expect to see any 
substantial results [for 15 years]. The accepted wisdom is no doubt 
correct, if we continue to play the game by the rules of today. But anyone 
who lived through World War II knows that the rules can be changed very 
fast when the necessity arises."

Perhaps such reversals have been more common in the past than we realize.


 > Granted Jed, who is a student of history, can
 > point out that the trends always reverse, which is true.

Someone asked Mark Twain, "Do you think it will ever stop raining?" He 
replied, "always has." Social trends almost always do reverse because they 
reach the point of absurdity or destructiveness. As my mother said around 
1950, "if trends continue the world will be knee-deep in televisions in a 
few years." (She was a social science researcher and yes, she was kidding.)

Trends always reverse, but it is not true that extreme social trends in all 
societies always return to a healthy norm. Sometimes, societies go extinct. 
Some ancient North American Indians may have destroyed themselves by the 
overuse of maize cultivation in fragile, arid land. Present-day US maize 
cultivation destroys the land and water table at a much faster rate than 
either can replenish. There is no doubt that sooner or later we will stop 
growing corn with present methods. The question is, will we stop because we 
develop better methods, or because the topsoil is lost and most of the land 
is converted to desert? No one can say what choice we will make. We have 
free will. We can *always* change our minds and come to our senses. Or not.


 > However,
 > they will not reverse in my lifetime, which is the fact that is
 > important to me and a fact that should be important to the present
 > generation.

I would say they *may not* reverse. I agree they show no sign of reversing 
at present. But no one can say with certainty that they *will not* reverse. 
There is no law that says they must play out at a fixed rate to form a 
perfect sine wave. Sometimes, social trends reverse abruptly, without warning.

A wonderful and unanticipated event can trigger changes in the right 
direction. Millions of people might suddenly become aware of cold fusion, 
and they might demand research. That can happen now, thanks to the 
Internet. Wonderful events do change the course of history. They are always 
the result of deliberate actions taken by one person, or by a small group 
of people. It isn't the society-wide "zeitgeist" that changes. One person 
somewhere decides to move the world. In 1948, Shockley, Bardeen and 
Brattain quietly invented the transistor. In 1958, Jack Kilby, working by 
himself when everyone else in the lab was on vacation, invented the 
integrated circuit. Semiconductors changed society as much as the steam 
engine or the automobile did. In December 1951, NAACP activist Rosa Parks 
refused to move to the back of a bus in Montgomery, AL. Her arrest led to a 
year-long mass boycott, which gave birth to the modern civil rights 
movement. There were other activists, and the movement would have condensed 
somewhere eventually, but it happened there, on that day, at that moment, 
because Parks *willed it*. She acted. Someone else would have eventually 
have discovered the transistor, but Shockley et al *did it*.

Unfortunately, history often changes radically because someone does 
something dreadful, not wonderful. The 9/11 terrorist attacks profoundly 
affected society. Nuclear terrorism might change things beyond recognition. 
Experts agree efforts to prevent nuclear terrorism continue to lag. See 
today's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/opinion/10KRIS.html


 > As I'm sure Horace would agree, if age has any benefit,
 > it allows a person to distill truth from bullshit, of which there is a
 > great quantity these days.

There does not seem to be more today than there was in the 1950s and 60s. 
The Vietnam war was not marked by clear thinking or enlightened government.


 > Young people tend to believe the bullshit
 > because they have no reason to think their respected elders would
 > lie.

Wars are not good for much, but they do teach young people to doubt their 
elders.


 > Only experience removes these optimistic myths.  As a result the
 > old get short tempered and pessimistic because they recognize the
 > lies, the incompetence, and the eventual disaster.

My parents lived through the Great Depression and WWII, some of my 
relatives were wounded in the attack on Hiroshima. Yet they did not get 
short temper or pessimistic. On the contrary, they concluded that if they 
could survive those dreadful events, and overcome those awesome 
difficulties, we can overcome today's problems too.

One of the reasons Martin Fleischmann has never been afraid to speak out, 
and he has never been cowed by the opposition, is that he narrowly escaped 
from the Gestapo. (His father was killed.) The CF researcher and journal 
editor J. P. Vigier was (is?) a tough old bird who wore a leather jacket 
and feared no one, because he was a member of the resistance. He used to 
shoot German officers in the back of the head and escape on a bicycle. He 
showed me the technique, quite convincingly. Such people cannot be pushed 
around by the likes of Robert Park. They are not optimists -- Martin is 
very pessimistic -- but they have seen incomparably worse things, and they 
are not afraid.

- Jed


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [Not Off Topic] Big Martian Rock
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At 11:07 AM 3/10/4, Mike Carrell wrote:

>MC: Try budding for size. An image that was discussed a while back shows a
>bluberry resting on a rock surface, with a well formed bulge on one side
>demarked by a clean line, as if a smaller sphere were trying to push out
>from inside the larger sphere. In the shadow below there is a strong
>suggestion of filaments extending from the bud to the 'rock' below.


I think such filaments in lichen are called rhizinae.  Perithecia (sperical
berry-like things that typically grow on the end of a stalk) and apothecia
(irregular enlargements in stalks that look somehting like a tumor) are
both primarily bags of meudllary matrix (fungal filaments) that enclose
lots of one celled animals which can either bacteria or algae.   Lichen is
merely a symbiotic organism.  It takes both a fungus and a symbiont to make
a lichen.  Like fungi, it reproduces multiple ways.



>
>One could dismiss the filaments, extept for the robust-appearing stalk
>holding a blueberry above the ground surface in another recent image.
>
>Horace may be on target comparing these to lichens and fruiting bodies.
>However, there are bacteria that reproduce by budding. Fruiting bodies are,
>I believe, spore-dispersers.

Yes the perithecia produce spores. But that is not the only means of lichen
reproduction.

>Terrestrial models are proper for showing what
>is possible, but Martian life is by definition exotic. The solar energy
>input is less than here, so the life processes may be much slower; that does
>not mean they stop.


Certainly all true.  However, assuming the life form is water based, there
can be no doubt that it is frozen much of the time.  It is likely only able
to reproduce in (comparatively) warm weather, above something like -25 C,
which is not often except maybe in summer.  Also it is clear from the
photos that there are berries in a state of disintegration, that appear to
be dead, or at least mostly composed of sublimating ice.  The fuzzy powder
left behind is likely unviable unless it contains microsopic hard shelled
reproductive agents of some kind. Layer upon layer of such material,
however, buried unsublimated, would leave a great legacy of water and
nutrients for subsequent generations though.

It also seems to me to be true that there is so much dissolved material in
the water that fossilization must be (or at least have been) a very fast
process on Mars.  Some of the berries are likely fossils.  In fact if you
look at the CETI webpage there is photograpic evidence there of meteor
carrried fossilized lichen-like structures bearing "berries."

It strikes me as likely that fruiting bodies can self-bud during their
formation.  This is likely merely a genetic defect.  In the high background
radiation of Mars mutation rates must be very high.  Given that the
lifeforms spend most of their time frozen, their lifespans must be very
long indeed.  Mutation, however, carries on its merry way even when things
are frozen.  This then must provide a very high mutation rate.  Fungal
cells provide the overall lichen structures.  If in the process of
specialization to produce fruiting bodies a fungal cell is mutated, it
might in fact revert back some steps in the production of the berry, and
thus produce a bud on the berry itself.

Again, the above is all very speculative, but it is also based on somewhat
on well known facts. It wil lbe most interesting to hear what NASA has to
say about the origin of the berries and the current presence of water.

The water issue, it me seems to me to be no issue at all.  It has already
been detected at shallow levels by NASA via satellite a couple years ago.

BTW, I think this subject matter is on topic.  The reason for that is that
vortex is provided to discuss scientific anomalies.  Unless and until the
obvious is announced, we are discussing a scientific anomaly.  At one time
I though vortex was only for energy related issues.  However, the owner,
Bill Beaty, has said from time to time that it is for anomaly discussion,
e.g faster than light communication, relativity violation, alternative big
bang theories, etc.  It seems to me that this Mars life topic, at least
while so timely, and so anomaly rich, is well on target.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 10 15:17:25 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MARS Spirit .. CD Rock?
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At 9:09 PM 3/10/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:

>You are right on that. See sol 64 picture of this spot before mark is created:
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/f/064/2F132046391EFF1500P1210R
>0M1.HTML
>
>and the picture how the mark is being created:
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/f/065/2F132128242EDN1500P1121L
>0M1.HTML


An excellent pair of observations Hamdi, and conclusive proof.


>
>It is remarkable that brightness of the soil increased so much by the
>impression
>and digging making it so darker.


Yes.  Probably because the material (lichen?) on top is very full of water
(ice) which becomes visible upon crushing, while the subsurface material is
not so full of water.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Bright object on far crater rim
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--============_-1133145739==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Some Spirit navcam images for sol 65 show the far side of the crater rim.
At pixel 832,168 in:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143034EFF1600P1917R
0M1.JPG>

You can see what appears to be a highly reflective object in the above
right camera view of the left side of the far rim.  The bright object also
shows up in the left view at:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143034EFF1600P1917L
0M1.JPG>

though is slightly differently shaped, despite being photgraphed at the
same instant.  This different shape, though the object is at a large
distance, is a tip off that it might be a reflection.  A clip of the object
as taken from the right view is attached.

Such a bright reflection or object seems to be unusual, based on the over
1000 photos provided so far.



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Regards,

Horace Heffner          



--============_-1133145739==_============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 10 22:39:49 2004
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Subject: New experimental evidence of zero point energy
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To all,

  "Observations of Vacuum fluctuations Suggests the Existence of Zero 
Point Energy (ZPE)". The second experimental report available at 
www.heliognosis.com outlines the method to detect and amplify vacuum 
fluctuations using an AC electric field. Numerous oscilloscope 
screenshots are provided to show the quasi-cyclic vlf and ulf 
oscillations of the "empty space" around us. The coupling between the 
electric field and the ZPE were found to increase with increasing 
electric field strength. The unavoidable conclusion is that the 
"electric permitivity" of the vacuum is not constant and is modulated by 
a new form of energy.

Dave Marett
Heliognosis

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From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bright object on far crater rim
References: <v01530502bc758f8b6809 [12.21.211.168]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Some Spirit navcam images for sol 65 show the far side of the crater rim.
>At pixel 832,168 in:
>
><http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143034EFF1600P1917R
>0M1.JPG>
>
>You can see what appears to be a highly reflective object in the above
>right camera view of the left side of the far rim.  The bright object also
>shows up in the left view at:
>

This shows the relative locations of the lander, backshell and 
parachute, and the heat shield:

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/01/23/


If Spirit is moving toward the large crater, we could be seeing the heat shield.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 11 06:54:06 2004
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From: "explorecraft" <pariah explorecraft.com>
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Subject: RE: New experimental evidence of zero point energy
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Dave!

Very nicely done - it only needs a summary.

The gist appears to be:

 ZPE 'noise' energy can be measured on an
 elctrically charged plate, during charging cycles.


I was planning on doing something like this
 using a _static_ 20kv using large plates.
 I recognize that using static charge might fail,
  but that's why we experiment.;^{
The trick will be to achieve a high impedance charge
 replenishment source to plates large enough to
 be a low-impedance coupling to ZPE,
 without dc current loss from ion wind.

...
The reference to permittivity altered by electrical
 field is an interesting one, given I am still
 not quite swayed by Blaze Labs test setup
 >http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp01.asp<
 which alleges a change seen in the presence of HV.
 

This data is encouraging even though it centers
 on cyclic charge rather than static base charge.


This could indicate a convenient method
 for 'free energy' ZPE collection.


keep going...

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave [mailto:vortex eol.ca]
> Sent: Thursday, 2004 March 11 13:51
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: New experimental evidence of zero point energy
> 
> 
> To all,
> 
>   "Observations of Vacuum fluctuations Suggests the Existence of Zero 
> Point Energy (ZPE)". The second experimental report available at 
> www.heliognosis.com outlines the method to detect and amplify vacuum 
> fluctuations using an AC electric field. Numerous oscilloscope 
> screenshots are provided to show the quasi-cyclic vlf and ulf 
> oscillations of the "empty space" around us. The coupling between the 
> electric field and the ZPE were found to increase with increasing 
> electric field strength. The unavoidable conclusion is that the 
> "electric permitivity" of the vacuum is not constant and is modulated by 
> a new form of energy.
> 
> Dave Marett
> Heliognosis
> 
> 
> 

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Subject: Stars pixed by Spirit, nice foto
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:13:03 +0700
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Looks like Spirit was working overtime, wee morning darkness
 imaging what I would hazard a guess might? be a planet?:

http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/067/2P132276086EFF1700P2=
735L1M1.HTML

I wonder if the stationary specks are background radiation,
I would have thought the meteor? tracks would be longer,
 or are they predominately vertica; trajectory? weird

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004>Looks =
like Spirit=20
was working overtime, wee morning darkness</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D840115514-11032004>&nbsp;imaging what I=20
would hazard a guess&nbsp;might? be a planet?:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D840115514-11032004></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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href=3D"http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/067/2P132276086E=
FF1700P2735L1M1.HTML">http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/06=
7/2P132276086EFF1700P2735L1M1.HTML</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
wonder if the=20
stationary specks are background radiation,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
would have thought=20
the meteor? tracks would be longer,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&nbsp;or are they=20
predominately vertica; trajectory? weird</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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GlacierWow:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/067/2N132275207EFF1700P156=
2R0M1.JPG
Bob Brady

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href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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1700P1562R0M1.JPG">http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/067/2N1=
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I guess that had to be a martian moon,
 too big to be anything else.
And perhaps the short diagonals are also radiation,
 in plane with the sensor.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: explorecraft [mailto:pariah explorecraft.com]
  Sent: Thursday, 2004 March 11 22:13
  To: Vortex-L
  Subject: Stars pixed by Spirit, nice foto



  Looks like Spirit was working overtime, wee morning darkness
   imaging what I would hazard a guess might? be a planet?:

  =
http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/067/2P132276086EFF1700P2=
735L1M1.HTML

  I wonder if the stationary specks are background radiation,
  I would have thought the meteor? tracks would be longer,
   or are they predominately vertica; trajectory? weird

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D400233419-11032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
guess that had to be a martian moon,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D400233419-11032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;too big to be anything else.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D400233419-11032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>And=20
perhaps the short diagonals are also radiation,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D400233419-11032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;in plane with the sensor.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> explorecraft=20
  [mailto:pariah explorecraft.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 2004 March =
11=20
  22:13<BR><B>To:</B> Vortex-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> Stars pixed by Spirit, =
nice=20
  foto<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D840115514-11032004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D840115514-11032004>Looks like Spirit=20
  was working overtime, wee morning darkness</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D840115514-11032004>&nbsp;imaging what=20
  I would hazard a guess&nbsp;might? be a planet?:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D840115514-11032004></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/067/2P132276086E=
FF1700P2735L1M1.HTML">http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/06=
7/2P132276086EFF1700P2735L1M1.HTML</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
wonder if the=20
  stationary specks are background radiation,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
would have=20
  thought the meteor? tracks would be longer,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&nbsp;or are they=20
  predominately vertica; trajectory? weird</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D840115514-11032004><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 11 12:55:07 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Bright object on far crater rim
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At 9:49 AM 3/11/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>Some Spirit navcam images for sol 65 show the far side of the crater rim.
>>At pixel 832,168 in:
>>
>><http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143034EFF1600P1917R
>>0M1.JPG>
>>
>>You can see what appears to be a highly reflective object in the above
>>right camera view of the left side of the far rim.  The bright object also
>>shows up in the left view at:
>>
>
>This shows the relative locations of the lander, backshell and
>parachute, and the heat shield:
>
>http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/01/23/
>
>
>If Spirit is moving toward the large crater,

Yes, indeed, it is on the southern rim.

>we could be seeing the heat shield.


Excellent observation!  You can even see the black marks around the shiney
spot in the Spirit navcam images above.  The rest of the black streak in
the MGS photo must be hidden over the rim.  Wow, that would make an
excellent place to put into Spirit's itinerary.  The heat shield must have
done some signifant surface disruption, so there would be freshly exposed
mineral surfaces not otherwise obtainable.

Some things stirke a bit strange about the MGS images.  First is the fact
that the heat shield impact streak goes off at almost right angles to its
direction of travel.  It must have hit a very massive rock.

Second, there is no indication of any white material in the MGS image of
the heat shield impact streak.  The white must therefore be a reflection of
some kind, unless maybe the heat shield is standing up on end.

Another is the fact that the heat shield itself should be at the far end of
the streak.  The end of the streak visible from the far side of the crater
is the initial impact point, the near end of the streak.  I suppose the
streak could be merely composed of disrupted dust, and the heat shield
itself could be located at the initial impact point.  Dark dust certainly
jives with the results of grinding into the rocks, even light ones.

Some evidence that the bright light is a reflection or light source is the
fact that there is a diffuse cone of light pattern on the ground in front
of it, with a reflective highlight on the midline to the object.  There is
the possibility that a (now) wet surface has been exposed.  It will be very
interesting to see what the new panoramic photos will show.

Also of minor note is that it looks like something foreign is down in the
crater toward the bottom right.  It looks like a rock or something dark
surrounded by a white halo of dust or something.  The east crater wall
appears to have been perforated by a meteor or something.  It looks as if
there is a narrow land bridge across the impact point.  Could be an
illusion, but there is in fact an odd structure over on the east corner of
the crater rim.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Ed's opinion
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At 10:16 AM 3/10/4, Edmund Storms wrote:
>As I'm sure Horace would agree, if age has any benefit,
>it allows a person to distill truth from bullshit, of which there is a
>great quantity these days.


How true.  My only reservation is the still limitied capacity I seem to
have to recognize and curb my own.  8^)


>Young people tend to believe the bullshit
>because they have no reason to think their respected elders would
>lie.  Only experience removes these optimistic myths.  As a result the
>old get short tempered and pessimistic because they recognize the
>lies, the incompetence, and the eventual disaster.  Once things get
>bad enough, changes are made, but this is only after many optimistic
>people are hurt.  I, for one, am too old to afford optimism, although
>I prefer it to pessimism.


It is so unfortunate that when nations are involved the remedial change or
its cause so often has to take the form of war.

In the US the BS of most concern is that which flows unheard, which can not
be exposed, like the private conversations between lobbyists and those in
power for example.  However, throughout history some lies have been so
great and so decieving, so well recieved that they drown out the truth and
those who dare utter it.  Such lies can be prolific and ubiquitous, like
the propaganda of Hitler's Germany, yet no one in the society dare question
them.  Given some of the drum beating in the media these days I am
concerned we could be moving toward BS of that magnitude.

It is also unfortunate but true that lies and deception played a major role
winning the consequential WWII, that lies are a signifcant weapon in
conflict.  It would be a better world if we could eliminate BS and bullets,
but that does not seem like something that will happen any time soon.
Meanwhile I guess we just have to cope as well as we can.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 11 15:09:34 2004
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: A relatively easy CF experiment from 1991 - again
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Robin van Spaandonk writes,

> EUV or low energy x-rays up to about 1 keV is exactly what one would expect from hydrino formation.... The occasional high energy particle from the Deuterium reactions is a consequence of fusion following on from deuterino formation."


The possibility of hydrino or deuterino formation seems to have been nullified by one of the testing procedures. You must have missed it on page 3. Here is the relevant quote:

"With Polaroid film: Loaded Pd samples were also photographed using Polaroid films (Viva, 3000 ASA) and films sensitive up to ultraviolet wavelength. In both the cases no fogging of the films was observed after an exposure time of 60 h This test implies that the emission from the planchet may not be visible or ultraviolet radiation."

Without any UV to indicate the necessary first few stages of hydrogen shrinkage, I can't see a way that hydrinos are involved. They can't just skip those early stages. The experimenter used sound and nearly foolproof techniques. Since all of the D2 or H2 loaded palladium samples fogged the X-ray films, but not the film sensitive to UV and since the spectrum was way below any kind of fusion event, this cannot be hydrino or cold fusion either.

But the study was well done, and it contradicts many preconceived notions. a tentative conclusion: "The main part of the radiation perhaps consists of electrons in the energy range of few tens to few hundreds of eV with intensity of 105 to 107 particles/s." 

Hmmm... I wonder if the radiation could be - not electrons at all but another, lighter lepton...say, an electron antineutrino with varying degrees of mass/energy due velocity ?

Jones

Other relevant tidbits:
"One Pd sample was also loaded with helium (He4) using plasma focus.  Subsequently the sample was autoradiographed...for 72 h... No fogging on the film was observed. This implies that phenomena observed are specific to D2/H2 loading only.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 11 16:33:15 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Bright object on far crater rim
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Regarding the navcam images for sol 65 show the far side of the crater rim
at pixel 832,168 in:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143034EFF1600P1917R
0M1.JPG>

there is a new Bonneville Crater panoramic collage press release at:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040311a/01-cl-01-site
17crop-A067R1.jpg>

that clearly shows the white spot at the heat shield impact point again.
It must be a very white object.  It did not show op in the MGS photo, so
the white surface must be nearly vertical.

The photo shows all of the far wall of Bonneville and well down into the crater.

Some of the other features that appeared in the MGS photos must be
illusions.  There is no apparent rock at the bottom right (SE) part of the
crater, nor does there appear to be a meteor impact point on the east wall
of the crater.  There does appear to be a small crater where it appeared
there was an object surrounded by white in the crater in the  MGS photo
though.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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In regard to the new method to detect and amplify vacuum 
 > fluctuations using an AC electric field...

pariah explorecraft wrote:

"I was planning on doing something like this
 using a _static_ 20kv using large plates.
 I recognize that using static charge might fail,
  but that's why we experiment.;^{
The trick will be to achieve a high impedance charge
 replenishment source to plates large enough to
 be a low-impedance coupling to ZPE,
 without dc current loss from ion wind."


  I have also tested DC charged plates. The fluctuations begin to become noticeable above the circuit noise at around 2000V and increase considerably as you approach 5000V. Of coarse, the fluctuations in this case occur in the voltage only. Higher voltages suffer from the formation of corona and would have to be performed in a high vacuum.
  The Advantage of the AC is that the quasi-static field is renewed and sampled thousands of times a second and allows for the use of safe voltage and current levels. The Experimental Life Energy Meter which employs this effect uses only 250V AC at a very small current. Touching the plate causes no significant sensation. I have also noticed that the human body contributes a strong fluctuation to the plate current, even at a distance and in the absence of motion. This is perhaps further proof that a new form of energy is at work here...Of coarse much research needs to be done in this direction. Over 4000 papers are available at the Scirus website on ZPF and I encourage everyone to pursue this emerging technology. For those who would like to get a head start, equipment is available to observe these effects at www.heliognosis.com

Dave Marett  

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It can not be confirmed without additional photos, but it appears that
there are structures or there is some kind of structure visible at the
horizon line at 2313,63 in the Spirit panoramic view of Bonneville:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143157EFF1600P1835L
0M1.JPG>

The most prominent is on top of the 3rd major hill in from the left (west).
It's the 4th hill if you count the very tiny hill at the beginning of the
chain.


The structure is not visible in

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143157EFF1600P1835L
0M1.JPG>

or:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143157EFF1600P1835L
0M1.JPG>

but these are too blurry at the long distance to tell anything one way or
another.

It is very unsual that NASA has not posted or is at least so late at
posting on the JPL website the source photos for the Spirit panaramic
collage of Bonneville.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:27:45 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: No troublesome tortoise, but will a fish do?
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--============_-1133046031==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I've had no luck locating a troublesome tortoise for Terry Blanton, but,
just for fun, maybe an archaic fish will do?

See pixel location 374,852 in:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/067/2N132312350EFF17B8P1944L
0M1.HTML>

(a clip is attached.)



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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



--============_-1133046031==_============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 11 23:21:54 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Structures on hills norteast of Bonneville
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I messed up the URL references in the prior post. Slightly corrected URLS
follow.

It can not be confirmed without additional photos, but it appears that
there are structures or there is some kind of structure visible at the
horizon line at 2313,63 in the Spirit panoramic view of Bonneville:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040311a/01-cl-01-site
17crop-A067R1.jpg>

The most prominent is on top of the 3rd major hill in from the left (west).
It's the 4th hill if you count the very tiny hill at the beginning of the
chain.


The structure is not visible in

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143157EFF1600P1835L
0M1.JPG>

and its right hand companion photo, but these are too blurry at the long
distance to tell anything one way or another.

It is STILL very unsual that NASA has not posted or is at least so late at
posting on the JPL website the source photos for the Spirit panoramic
collage of Bonneville.  NASA has just lately posted som photos from righ on
the rim, but not the photos from which the above panorama was composed.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 05:01:26 2004
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Hydrogen From Biomass
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 06:00:45 -0600
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This is the work that I started 30 years ago to reform biomass into hydrogen and other
fuels  using hot water and a catalyst. J. A. Dumesic went through several hundred
trial
catalysts before he got it right.  :-)

Highlight the number copy and paste it in the box here.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm

The patent is 31 pages long.

This should also work on starch and cellulose, especially after peroxide pretreatment.
(Mike Gould's Process).

Since the slightly exothermic reaction between water and glucose with this reaction;

C6H12-O6 + 6 H2O ---> 6 CO2 + 12 H2

produces copious amounts of hydrogen that can be reacted with the CO2 to form a
readily storeable Methanol-Water Antifreeze mix for ICEs;

3 H2 + CO2 --->  CH3OH + H2O

or an onboard reaction for fuel cell powered vehicles is easily accomplished on demand
by metering the mix from the fuel tank into a reformer and reversing the reaction:

CH3OH + H2O ---> CO2 + 3 H2

Regards

Frederick


United States Patent  6,699,457
Cortright ,   et al.  March 2, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Low-temperature hydrogen production from oxygenated hydrocarbons


Abstract
Disclosed is a method of producing hydrogen from oxygenated hydrocarbon reactants,
such as glycerol, glucose, or sorbitol. The method can take place in the vapor phase
or in the condensed liquid phase. The method includes the steps of reacting water and
a water-soluble oxygenated hydrocarbon having at least two carbon atoms, in the
presence of a metal-containing catalyst. The catalyst contains a metal selected from
the group consisting of Group VIII transitional metals, alloys thereof, and mixtures
thereof. The disclosed method can be run at lower temperatures than those used in the
conventional steam reforming of alkanes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventors:  Cortright; Randy D. (Madison, WI); Dumesic; James A. (Verona, WI)
Assignee:  Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (Madison, WI)
Appl. No.:  998552
Filed:  November 29, 2001

Current U.S. Class: 423/648.1
Intern'l Class:  C01B 003/02
Field of Search:  423/648.1,650,651,652,653,654

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

Fuel cells have emerged as one of the most promising new technologies for meeting
future global energy needs. In particular, fuel cells that consume hydrogen are
proving to be environmentally clean, quiet, and highly efficient devices for power
generation. However, while hydrogen fuel cells have a low impact on the environment,
the current methods for producing hydrogen require high-temperature steam reforming of
non-renewable hydrocarbon fuels. Further still, these high-temperature methods produce
significant amounts of polluting emissions and greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide
(CO.sub.2).

A key challenge for promoting and sustaining the vitality and growth of the fuel cell
industry (as well as the entire industrial sector of society) is to develop efficient
and environmentally benign technologies for generating fuel, such as hydrogen, from
renewable resources. Notably, if hydrogen fuel for consumption in fuel cells can be
generated efficiently from renewable sources, then non-renewable resources such as
petroleum feedstocks can be used for other, more beneficial, and less environmentally
deleterious purposes. Moreover, the generation of energy from renewable resources such
as biomass, reduces the net rate of production of carbon dioxide, an important
greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming. This is because the biomass itself,
i.e., plant material, consumes carbon dioxide during its life cycle.

At present, the vast majority of hydrogen production is accomplished via steam
reforming of a hydrocarbon (usually methane) over a suitable catalyst. Conventional
steam reforming takes place at considerably elevated temperatures, generally from
about 400.degree. C. to 700.degree. C. or even higher (673 to 937 K and higher).







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 06:05:50 2004
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Subject: Spirit Heat Shield
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:05:46 -0600
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This is probably a good color picture of Mars, balanced for white light.

http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm

The heat shield in the distance is so shiny that it prevents the PanCam from
adjusting any of the filtered images. It's also the only thing that NASA has
imaged in visible color, in days.

Craig Haynie (Houston)




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 06:07:41 2004
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Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:08:09 -0500
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>I've had no luck locating a troublesome tortoise for Terry Blanton, but,
>just for fun, maybe an archaic fish will do?
>

Vesica Picis on Mars!  Wait 'till Gibson hears about this.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:03:08 2004
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: More voting machine news
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Noted computer columnist Robert Cringely quoted me about voting machines in 
this week's column:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20040311.html

I wish I could get him to write about CF.

His suggestion that the voter name be included on the paper ballot would 
violate election laws. Ballots have to be secret. Even if the voter's 
selections (or name) were encoded in bar-code, an election official with 
access to the bar code reading equipment could read it and find who voted 
for whom. It is better to print the choices in plaintext, have the voter 
confirm the paper record is correct, and then randomly mix up the paper 
receipts inside a ballot box.

There is a report that California may decertify the machines:

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,62627,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_6

This goes to show that reform is possible, and people sometimes react and 
fix problems.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:11:55 2004
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These tables of data run 12 pages. Good reference info well worth printing out.

 http://www.pg.gda.pl/chem/Dydaktyka/Fizyczna/chf_epm_cr_01.pdf

Regards

Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:13:16 2004
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Subject: Re: New experimental evidence of zero point energy
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Dave writes,

>   "I have also tested DC charged plates. The fluctuations begin to become noticeable above the circuit noise at around 2000V and increase considerably as you approach 5000V. "

What you may be noticing could be related to a particular kind of charge imbalance and the effect of free electrons. But be aware of the possibility of confusion about how one defines the "free" in this case. This distinction, in itself could also relate back to ZPE, but via a specific medium that you can concentrate on to maximize the effect, i.e. the natural free electron and the Forster radius. In older experiments, there has been significance related to the 2000 v threshold vis-a-vis the de Broglie radius of the free electron. For instance, 2000 v is a threshold where Graneau and others often find an energy anomaly.

If you want the details, some of this info can be found in older posts in the vortex archive by Horace Heffner and myself. I believe that it is no accident that the 2-10 nm Forster radius includes the de Broglie wavelength of thermalized aqueous electrons of the type one might expect to find as free electrons in the atmosphere, rain water BUT not necessarily in metal with a slight charge imbalance.

If you want to test this distinction, using a metal plate, here is a specific suggestion: 
Instead of charging the plate with a HV induction source, try charging it using the air flow off a room air ionizer with the filter removed or a belt-driven van de Graff connected to an outside ground. There seems to be several varieties of so-called "free" electrons and there seems to be something special about those that are "free in nature." Needless to say, you will not find confirmation of this meshugga-doublespeak in any physics textbook. 

But for what it's worth, consider that Dr. Peter Graneau specifically uses "rain water" to get his energy anomaly.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 07:20:03 2004
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Addendum to previous Post.

After seeing the message from Fred, I should add that Fred is the vortex expert on the free electron and the anomalies that might be caused by such.

I understand that he has even purchased a van de Graff (in order to self-power his "swamper" through those New Mexico summers).

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 08:42:29 2004
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Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:47:35 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: No troublesome tortoise, but will a fish do?
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At 9:08 AM 3/12/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>I've had no luck locating a troublesome tortoise for Terry Blanton, but,
>>just for fun, maybe an archaic fish will do?
>>
>
>Vesica Picis on Mars!  Wait 'till Gibson hears about this.


Yeah.  Given the way Gibson was reviled for suggesting that there were
bacteria in a Mars meteorite can you imagine the reaction to the notion of
lichen or even fish!  8^)

BTW a good fish fossil like that might be worth $100.

<http://www.texasrockshop.com/fossils03.html>

although these guys are pretty competitve:

<http://www.twoguysfossils.com/fish.htm>

but there is hope when you see how pricey some of the competition is:

<http://www.paleodirect.com/fish1.htm>

It all boils down to quality.  When FEDEX or UPS opens a Mars office, there
should be a great web based business available, if combined with the berry
fossil business.   8^)


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 09:44:44 2004
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In an interview last night on Coast to Coast AM, Richard C Hoagland 
said that he has seen Mars Rover Photos in which an object which 
looks like a ball on a stalk is seen. He believes that this is a 
crinoid. He went on to say that they destroyed the object in 
question. Well, I suppose there are more where that one came from.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 09:45:12 2004
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Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:45:48 -0600
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>Dave Marett posted;


>  I have also tested DC charged plates. The fluctuations begin to 
>become noticeable above the circuit noise at around 2000V and 
>increase considerably as you approach 5000V. Of coarse, the 
>fluctuations in this case occur in the voltage only. Higher voltages 
>suffer from the formation of corona and would have to be performed 
>in a high vacuum.

So, Does this fluctuation increase in the potential power with voltage?

>  The Advantage of the AC is that the quasi-static field is renewed 
>and sampled thousands of times a second and allows for the use of 
>safe voltage and current levels.

Quasi-static, how does this differ from regular static?

>  The Experimental Life Energy Meter which employs this effect uses 
>only 250V AC at a very small current. Touching the plate causes no 
>significant sensation.

The last time I get bit by 250 V it was a shocking experience.

>I have also noticed that the human body contributes a strong 
>fluctuation to the plate current, even at a distance and in the 
>absence of motion.

Given that it is a living organism, I would expect that to be the case.

>This is perhaps further proof that a new form of energy is at work 
>here...Of coarse much research needs to be done in this direction.

I agree.

>  Over 4000 papers are available at the Scirus website on ZPF and I 
>encourage everyone to pursue this emerging technology.

What is the URL for this Scirus website?

>For those who would like to get a head start, equipment is available 
>to observe these effects at www.heliognosis.com

Thank you for introducing me to that website.

>
I have a copy of DeMayo's book on orgone accumulators. If this design 
can cohere the energy, than putting it in an orgone box or blanket 
should increase the effect. I just recalled Reich's having heated 
sand to incandescence and them putting it into the accumulator. As I 
recall he got a tan with his clothes on. This makes me wonder what 
that was all about. Another thing that just occurred to me, a friend 
of a friend is dying of cancer, They were quite amazed when I 
recounted the story of cancer remissions that resulted from spending 
time in an accumulator of under a blanket, and Reich's death in 
prison. Another thing I just thought of, negative orgone, take some 
radio nuclides and put them in the accumulator, it is said to 
devistate life in it's vacinity, but energy generally works best with 
two poles.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 10:13:17 2004
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Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:08:57 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Madrid and LENR
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Before WWII the four British railway companies were 
the LMS, the LNER, the GWR and the Southern Railway
The initials stood respectively for 
London Midland and Scotland
London and North Eastern Railway
Great Western Railway (know by Brunel enthusiasts
and trainspotters as God's Wonderful Railway)

My only excuse for imparting this archaic morsel is
that whenever I see the term LENR the groves that 
my childhood has ground into my brain railroad
it into transposing LENR into LNER.

Which links me to the Madrid atrocity and the 
question, will it ever be possible to make
a LNER (sorry, LENR) bomb?

Since we do not know with any certainty whether cold
fusion works, and if it works, how it works, I imagine
that no one can say yes to this question - but more
importantly, neither can they say no.

As I see it, there are two tiny clouds on the horizon
which could be precursors for this eventuality.

1. The F&P lab explosion.

2. The Mizuno experiments.

Perhaps some Vortexian can answer the following 
hypothetical question.

What would the yield be in tons of TNT if all the 
Deuterium in, say, a 10lb block of saturated metal 
is transmuted to helium?

If it should prove relatively easy to make a LENR bomb
then the implications for terrorism are pretty obvious.
One of the reasons that prohibition failed in the US
was that alcohol production is relatively simple and
therefore virtually impossible for governments to control.

I believe something similar is happening with some drug
or other, the name of which escapes me, which is now a 
momma and pop operation, and spreading out of control.

What would the consequences be of a similar 
development in the LNER field?

World Government perhaps?

After all, even with the existing difficulties of 
initiating a nuclear explosion it will only take
the nuking of a major western city to cause a 
huge lurch by the world community towards that end.

Frank Grimer







   

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Madrid and LENR
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Grimer writes:

 > Which links me to the Madrid atrocity and the
 > question, will it ever be possible to make
 > a LNER (sorry, LENR) bomb?
 >
 > Since we do not know with any certainty whether cold
 > fusion works, and if it works, how it works, I imagine
 > that no one can say yes to this question - but more
 > importantly, neither can they say no.

I think we know enough to say this is unlikely. CF reactions only occur on 
the surface or near surface. CF is not a chain reaction, although the heat 
from an ongoing CF reaction can cause it to increase. It requires a solid 
state metal, which would be vaporized as soon as the reaction begins to go 
out of control.

The only danger from CF that worries me is the possibility that it might be 
used to make radioactive elements.


 > What would the yield be in tons of TNT if all the
 > Deuterium in, say, a 10lb block of saturated metal
 > is transmuted to helium?

I can compute this, but the answer is not useful. First, the answer:

10 lbs = 4.5 kg
106 g Pd = 1 mole
4.5 kg Pd = 42 moles

Assume the Pd:D ratio is 1:1, which is ridiculous. (Let's say this is Pd 
black, making that slightly less ridiculous.)

42 moles D = 84 grams D

1 kg D gas produces 575 million MJ fusion energy
0.084 kg D produces 48 million MJ
48 million MJ = 1.7 million tons TNT (megatons)

This is larger than most thermonuclear bombs today, which are usually 
around 200 to 400 kilotons, I think. But it is not a world record. The 
Russians once detonated a 50 megaton bomb, as I recall.

For conversion factors see:

http://www.processassociates.com/process/convert/cf_all.htm

Anyway, this is not realistic for the reasons I gave above, and because in 
a real atomic bomb, only a tiny fraction of the fuel is used up before the 
bomb disintegrates. If CF bombs are possible at all, I doubt that a ten 
pound model will produce more than 10 or 20 kilotons -- a Hiroshima bomb. 
What's the big deal?


 > If it should prove relatively easy to make a LENR bomb
 > then the implications for terrorism are pretty obvious.

So far it has proved next to impossible to make a LENR anything, even a 
matchstick. If LENR is ever produced I expect it will come from high-tech 
factories similar to those used to manufacture advanced batteries or fuel 
cells.


 > World Government perhaps?
 >
 > After all, even with the existing difficulties of
 > initiating a nuclear explosion it will only take
 > the nuking of a major western city to cause a
 > huge lurch by the world community towards that end.

I do not see way that would bring about world government. On the contrary I 
think it would make many nations more suspicious than ever of one another. 
I assume it would trigger some old fashion conventional wars, just as the 
9/11 attacks did.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 11:08:48 2004
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Hi Frank.

you write:
>If it should prove relatively easy to make a LENR bomb
>then the implications for terrorism are pretty obvious.
>One of the reasons that prohibition failed in the US
>was that alcohol production is relatively simple and
>therefore virtually impossible for governments to control.

A few years ago I watched 8 fuckwits with box cutters
destroy several billion dollars worth of real estate
and 3000 lives right in my backyard. No nuclear missile
or LENR bomb was required. Much worse could have been
accomplished. Your concerns are misplaced; the threat
comes from humans and not technology.

>I believe something similar is happening with some drug
>or other, the name of which escapes me, which is now a 
>momma and pop operation, and spreading out of control.

That would be methamphetamine. This drug was invented
in the 40's by the German army. Usage waxes and
wanes over the decades, but is limited by the fact
that the side effects are so detrimental that serious
users tend to end up dead or too badly debilitated
to continue. It's interesting to note that this
drug is provided by our Air Force to pilots during
bombing missions. This came to light during the war
in Afghanistan, two of our pilots bombed a
cadre of Canadian soldiers while under its influence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2657675.stm

Look up "Go Pills" on google and you can find
out more... The military says the drug
is safe and effective for killing other people, but
a deadly menace for recreational use. You may
believe what you wish, but as the hippies of
Haight-Ashbury used to say, "Speed Kills".

K. 






   


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So far Frank, you have nothing to worry about, and this is the opinion
of a pessimist.  The effect requires a very special chemical
environment that is easily destroyed.  Once the temperature reaches a
few hundred degrees C, the reaction will stop.  On the other hand,
once people discover how to make small, high-powered energy sources
based on this phenomenon, they can apply the energy to a laser and
destroy anything within sight.  The military will always find a way to
turn anything into a killing machine.  Fortunately, terrorists will be
satisfied with ordinary explosives, which are more effective because
they can be used by a moron

Ed

Grimer wrote:

> Before WWII the four British railway companies were
> the LMS, the LNER, the GWR and the Southern Railway
> The initials stood respectively for
> London Midland and Scotland
> London and North Eastern Railway
> Great Western Railway (know by Brunel enthusiasts
> and trainspotters as God's Wonderful Railway)
>
> My only excuse for imparting this archaic morsel is
> that whenever I see the term LENR the groves that
> my childhood has ground into my brain railroad
> it into transposing LENR into LNER.
>
> Which links me to the Madrid atrocity and the
> question, will it ever be possible to make
> a LNER (sorry, LENR) bomb?
>
> Since we do not know with any certainty whether cold
> fusion works, and if it works, how it works, I imagine
> that no one can say yes to this question - but more
> importantly, neither can they say no.
>
> As I see it, there are two tiny clouds on the horizon
> which could be precursors for this eventuality.
>
> 1. The F&P lab explosion.
>
> 2. The Mizuno experiments.
>
> Perhaps some Vortexian can answer the following
> hypothetical question.
>
> What would the yield be in tons of TNT if all the
> Deuterium in, say, a 10lb block of saturated metal
> is transmuted to helium?
>
> If it should prove relatively easy to make a LENR bomb
> then the implications for terrorism are pretty obvious.
> One of the reasons that prohibition failed in the US
> was that alcohol production is relatively simple and
> therefore virtually impossible for governments to control.
>
> I believe something similar is happening with some drug
> or other, the name of which escapes me, which is now a
> momma and pop operation, and spreading out of control.
>
> What would the consequences be of a similar
> development in the LNER field?
>
> World Government perhaps?
>
> After all, even with the existing difficulties of
> initiating a nuclear explosion it will only take
> the nuking of a major western city to cause a
> huge lurch by the world community towards that end.
>
> Frank Grimer
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 13:11:36 2004
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:11:11 -0600:
Hi Fred,
[snip]

You may also find this of use:-

http://webbook.nist.gov/chemistry/form-ser.html

>These tables of data run 12 pages. Good reference info well worth printing out.
>
> http://www.pg.gda.pl/chem/Dydaktyka/Fizyczna/chf_epm_cr_01.pdf
>
>Regards
>
>Frederick

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

George Orwell was 20 years off.

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Jed Rothwell responds to Frank Grimer's observation,

>  > Since we do not know with any certainty whether cold
>  > fusion works, and if it works, how it works, I imagine
>  > that no one can say yes to this question [CF bomb] - but more
>  > importantly, neither can they say no.
> 
> I think we know enough to say this is unlikely. CF reactions only occur on 
> the surface or near surface. CF is not a chain reaction, although the heat 
> from an ongoing CF reaction can cause it to increase. It requires a solid 
> state metal, which would be vaporized as soon as the reaction begins to go 
> out of control.


I agree that it is unlikely with Pd-D. But that is not the necessarily the real implied threat from CF research. There exists such a high level of "offical neglect" and even active attempts at marginalizing promising CF possibilities (like Claytor's work, perhaps) that it almost makes one wonder. Does the offical and semi-official action (or inaction) not indicate that something akin to high-level paranoia is afloat, beyond that which even alternative-energy advocates and CF experimenters may be aware of?

For instance, one of the most powerful and least-used simple techniques in all of physics is spherical implosion (spherical convergence), but one scarsely sees it mentioned in textbooks. I don't think official neglect could go that far. Yet, here is the only simple way in all of nature that low grade energy can be raised in intensity by 12 orders of magnitude merely by applying geometry - and it isn't being taught. Look at the Farnsworth Fusor - Richard Hull has probably produced more fusion reactions in his garage using spherical convergence than our entire $25 billion fusion-boondoggle, but who has heard of him in the Dept of Energy?

No experimenter that I am aware of gives more than passing thought to the military implication of their experiments, but that doesn't mean that there are none. I doubt that even the most radical CF experimenter has has taken the time to see what happens if a marble of fully loaded palladium black were to be imploded using high explosives. I'm almost positive that nothing would happen.

But that doesn't mean that nothing would happen if highly pre-energized isotopic borane or lithium deuteride were to be spherically imploded in a precsion-crafted setup.  It is just that level of 'similarity-in-principle' which may be enough for certain physicists who have worked for the Pentagon to become warning-flag wavers. But  that also implies a level of paranoia that may not be justified by balancing risk and rewards.

Actually there is a whole area of interest that borders on SciFi fanaticism among some conspiracy-theorists and "wannabe spooks" about the subject known furtively as "pure fusion" weaponry, and its subsets "red mercury" and "ballotechnics". If you are interested in getting a fuller dose of fright, go to this site:
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/douglass/2003/0311.htm

But beware of the MIB. I got an immediate barrage of hits on my firewall after just visiting the site for a few minutes  <G> 

Jones

-did you hear the one about the restaurant NASA is starting on Mars? 

Great food, no atmosphere!  or

The Cepes were a bit cold !  or

That hamburger tasted like it came off a Beagle !

I know, I know... don't quit your day job...






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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:27:42 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>I messed up the URL references in the prior post. Slightly corrected URLS
>follow.
>
>It can not be confirmed without additional photos, but it appears that
>there are structures or there is some kind of structure visible at the
>horizon line at 2313,63 in the Spirit panoramic view of Bonneville:
>
><http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040311a/01-cl-01-site
>17crop-A067R1.jpg>
[snip]
This is so desolate and empty. If I were standing there, my first thought would be "let's go home!".


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

George Orwell was 20 years off.

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Ethics and life-energy meter.
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On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Dave wrote:

> To all,
>
>   "Observations of Vacuum fluctuations Suggests the Existence of Zero
> Point Energy (ZPE)". The second experimental report available at
> www.heliognosis.com outlines the method to detect and amplify vacuum

Is this intended to be a secret invention , a "black box" aimed at
non-technically skilled people (new age community, etc.)?

If it's supposed to be research equipment, you really shouldn't be hiding
any details about what it does (such as neglecting to post schematics on
the website.)  Holding back proprietary information is fine for things
like RF amps or bench supplies, but for physics experiments, hiding the
details in order to force customers give money for the priviledge of
performing an experiment is extremely unethical.  If your goal is to
convince other researchers to replicate your results, but you want to be
paid before giving up certain details about how you performed the
experiment, or if you're trying to artifically drive up the price of an
instrument by witholding information, you are really in the wrong
business.  Hiding details and refusing to publish discoveries for all to
see, that's something inventors do.  It has nothing to do with science.

Personally, I would never in a million years buy such a device without
knowing everything about the internals.  I'd need to be able to build it
myself...  but then I might buy a pre-built version to avoid the hassle,
and to guarantee having a standard unit so I'm on the same page as anyone
else studying this issue.

As the vortex-L moderator, I've considered adding rules to this forum to
ban anything resembling "self promotion" or selling of products.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A relatively easy CF experiment from 1991 - again
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:18:24 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:09:09 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin van Spaandonk writes,
>
>> EUV or low energy x-rays up to about 1 keV is exactly what one would expect from hydrino formation.... The occasional high energy particle from the Deuterium reactions is a consequence of fusion following on from deuterino formation."
>
>
>The possibility of hydrino or deuterino formation seems to have been nullified by one of the testing procedures. You must have missed it on page 3. Here is the relevant quote:
>
>"With Polaroid film: Loaded Pd samples were also photographed using Polaroid films (Viva, 3000 ASA) and films sensitive up to ultraviolet wavelength. In both the cases no fogging of the films was observed after an exposure time of 60 h This test implies that the emission from the planchet may not be visible or ultraviolet radiation."

Note that it says "sensitive up to ultraviolet wavelength".
The minimum energy UV that hydrino formation puts out is 13.6 eV which is in the mid-UV range, not the lower end which the film used is apparently sensitive to (though there should be secondary radiation at lower energies). 
Furthermore most materials are opaque to such frequencies, resulting in their rapid degradation to heat, or transfer of their energy to electrons ionised from other atoms. And it would seem that precisely those electrons were being detected.

>
>Without any UV to indicate the necessary first few stages of hydrogen shrinkage, I can't see a way that hydrinos are involved. They can't just skip those early stages. The experimenter used sound and nearly foolproof techniques. Since all of the D2 or H2 loaded palladium samples fogged the X-ray films, but not the film sensitive to UV and since the spectrum was way below any kind of fusion event, this cannot be hydrino or cold fusion either.

Only some of the higher energy UV (low end x-rays), or a few of the resultant ionised electrons would make it out of the metal.
Not all fusion, just the occasional fusion reaction. Note that they did detect a small number of high energy particles.

>
>But the study was well done, and it contradicts many preconceived notions. a tentative conclusion: "The main part of the radiation perhaps consists of electrons in the energy range of few tens to few hundreds of eV with intensity of 105 to 107 particles/s." 

Which hydrino formation could account for, as set forth above.
>
>Hmmm... I wonder if the radiation could be - not electrons at all but another, lighter lepton...say, an electron antineutrino with varying degrees of mass/energy due velocity ?

Is there any reason to believe that anti-neutrinos would have a larger absorbtion cross section than neutrinos? Note the extreme measures that need to be taken to detect solar neutrinos.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

George Orwell was 20 years off.

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, March 12, 2004
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:39:19 -0500
From: "What's New" <whatsnew bobpark.org>
Reply-To: whatsnew bobpark.org
To: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 12 Mar 04   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: DEPLOYMENT IS ON SCHEDULE, BUT WILL IT WORK? 
A GAO report released yesterday points out that the components of
the mid-course ground-based system have not been tested in "its
deployed configuration."  Many problems, such as finding warheads
in a field of decoys, multiple interceptor launches, nighttime
intercepts, adverse weather, and finding missiles without homing
beacons have not been tested at all.  Nevertheless, the Missile
Defense Agency says it will put a covey of interceptors in Alaska
as early as July.  The General Accounting Office is the
investigative arm of Congress, which is controlled by the
Republicans.  But yesterday it was Democrats on the Senate Armed
Services Committee who focused on the testing issue. The Director
of Operational Test and Evaluation in the Pentagon admitted that
the system is not even far enough along to use Pentagon computer
programs that would indicate whether it would actually work. 

2. DEPLOY NOW, TEST LATER: WE CAN'T SIT AROUND UNTIL THINGS WORK.
With the administration requesting $10.2B for missile defense
next year, Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI)questioned whether deployment
would violate a 1983 federal law passed after Ronald Reagan
announced his Strategic Defense Initiative.  The law requires new
weapons systems to be tested under realistic conditions before
going into mass production.  The Soviets had vast fleets of
sophisticated ICBMs armed with hydrogen warheads.  SDI never came
close to being a credible defense.  But what's the urgency now? 
The Alaska site could only defend against North Korea, which
might be able to set off a nuclear explosion, but would be hard
put to build a warhead for an ICBM -- if they had an ICBM -- and
they know they'd be toast if they tried to use it.  Against this
awesome threat we need to spend $100B on an untested defense? 
               
3. HUBBLE REPRIEVE?  NASA ADMINISTRATOR SAYS "NOT ON MY WATCH." 
There was brief joy among astronomers yesterday when they heard
the news that NASA had agreed to have the National Academy of
Sciences consider the decision to cancel another Hubble repair
mission on safety grounds.  But later in the day, Sean O'Keefe,
the NASA Administrator, punched a hole in their canoe.  He made
it clear that while he was willing to have experts look at the
decision, there was nothing they could say that would change his
mind.  I called Ann Thropojinic, a veteran astronaut at NASA
Headquarters, to help me understand this.  "You scientists just
don't get it, do you?" she sighed.  "People don't care what's
going on 13 billion light years away.  They want to know how you
eat spaghetti in zero gravity.  You should have thought about
that before you let Hubble go up without a permanent crew."   


THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.  
Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
University of Maryland, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
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NOTE:  CALL FOR PAPERS=20

Arrangements for the 2004 ExtraOrdinary Technology Conference are
being made.  This Conference will include the yearly New Energy
Conference normally sponsored by Institute for New Energy.  The
conference is being planned for July 29-August 1, 2004 in Salt
Lake City.  The conference admission for the entire conference is
$249.95 and 199.95 for spouse.  The conference will be cohosted
by the Institute for New Energy and TeslaTech.  A 40% discount
will be offered for members of either organization.  However, to
qualify for the discount, one's dues must be paid through August
1, 2004.  Preregistration will be through TeslaTech.  Due to
space limitations, door registration is limited to space
availability only.

CALL FOR PAPERS:

Speaker selection is occurring at this time, and potential
speakers should contact Steve Elswick at (520) 463-1994 or Hal
Fox at (801) 466-8668 promptly and have an abstract for
consideration.  Papers will be published in a special edition of
the Journal of New Energy.

Changes will be immediately emailed to those signed up on this
list and posted later on the website.=20

If you have any questions please call (520) 463-1994.
Thanks,
Steve Elswick  -- steve teslatech.info
Publisher - ExtraOrdinary  Technology
520-463-1994 - http://www.teslatech.info

Note by Hal Fox:  As president of Emerging Energy Marketing Firm,
Inc. I am pleased to announce that EEMF is receiving a grant of
"up to $40 million" for the full-scale demonstration of our
ability for the on-site stabilization of high-level, radioactive
liquid wastes.  Current shareholders in EEMF, Inc. and qualified
investors can still purchase shares at $2 per share until the
first grant funds are received.

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<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier>NOTE:&nbsp; CALL FOR PAPERS=20
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier>Arrangements for the 2004 ExtraOrdinary Technology=
=20
Conference are<BR>being made.&nbsp; This Conference will include the yearly=20=
New=20
Energy<BR>Conference normally sponsored by Institute for New Energy.&nbsp;=20
The<BR>conference is being planned for July 29-August 1, 2004 in Salt<BR>Lak=
e=20
City.&nbsp; The conference admission for the entire conference is<BR>$249.95=
 and=20
199.95 for spouse.&nbsp; The conference will be cohosted<BR>by the Institute=
 for=20
New Energy and TeslaTech.&nbsp; A 40% discount<BR>will be offered for member=
s of=20
either organization.&nbsp; However, to<BR>qualify for the discount, one's du=
es=20
must be paid through August<BR>1, 2004.&nbsp; Preregistration will be throug=
h=20
TeslaTech.&nbsp; Due to<BR>space limitations, door registration is limited t=
o=20
space<BR>availability only.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier>CALL FOR PAPERS:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier>Speaker selection is occurring at this time, and=20
potential<BR>speakers should contact Steve Elswick at (520) 463-1994 or=20
Hal<BR>Fox at (801) 466-8668 promptly and have an abstract=20
for<BR>consideration.&nbsp; Papers will be published in a special edition=20
of<BR>the Journal of New Energy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier>Changes will be immediately emailed to those signe=
d up=20
on this<BR>list and posted later on the website. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier>If you have any questions please call (520)=20
463-1994.<BR>Thanks,<BR>Steve Elswick&nbsp; -- <A   href=3D"mailto:steve tes=
latech.info">steve teslatech.info</A><BR>Publisher -=20
ExtraOrdinary&nbsp; Technology<BR>520-463-1994 - <A   href=3D"http://www.tes=
latech.info">http://www.teslatech.info</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier>Note by Hal Fox:&nbsp; As president of Emerging En=
ergy=20
Marketing Firm,<BR>Inc. I am pleased to announce that EEMF is receiving a gr=
ant=20
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=20
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In regard to the Vacuum fluctuation experiment at www.heliognosis.com 
and the question of DC charged plates,

Thomas Malloy wrote:

"So, Does this fluctuation increase in the potential power with voltage?"

This would appear to be the case but the test was performed with a 
charged plate analyser, at very high impedance. The actual power was not 
measured. The fluctuations did increase in amplitude by about 50 times 
from 2kv to 5kv.

"Quasi-static, how does this differ from regular static?"

Static refers to a charge which is not changing ideally. In this 
experiment, the magnetic field component has been minimized in favour of 
a strong electric field but still with charge in motion. The charge 
remains in the "static" condition for a short time between the charge 
and discharge cycle. Since this field has elements of change and static, 
I have coined it "quasi-static".

"The last time I get bit by 250 V it was a shocking experience."

The current is limited by the sense resister in the meter to below 625 
microamps. Such a small current at 65kHz has almost no sensation.

The Scirus website www.scirus.com is dedicated to scientific papers.

Dave Marett

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Bill Beaty wrote about the Vacuum Fluctuations post:

"Is this intended to be a secret invention , a "black box" aimed at
non-technically skilled people (new age community, etc.)?"

  I have attempted with this latest paper to bring the Experimental Life Energy Meter out of the closet so to speak by providing a block diagram showing the key components. For example, the ultra-stable power supply composed of batteries and an RC filter. The current sensor is simply a resister connected to a high impedance amplifier/rectifier. Filters and amplifiers used in the device are nothing novel and can be anything with sufficiently low noise. The Life Meter uses the same components with the exception of the power supply. This is a regulated sine wave using an induction coil/switching supply. Certainly their will be many people interested in studying this phenomena who do not have the skill or desire to build such a device. It is for these people that the equipment is offered. If anyone would like to discuss further the scientific principles of the experiment, I would be most willing to do so. 

"If it's supposed to be research equipment, you really shouldn't be hiding
any details about what it does (such as neglecting to post schematics on
the website.)"

Anyone skilled in the art can choose the components which are readily available for themselves. It is more important that the scientific principal is apparent. I have clearly stated in the paper the value of the series current resister and provided oscillographs at each critical location in the circuit. Bill, please let me know what details you or anyone else requires and I will publicly provide you with a solution that you can apply yourself. Since some aspects of the design are circuit blocks that I use in my work, and I may wish to apply to other related and non-related projects, I may provide you with alternative solutions which perform the same function without being of the same design. I don't think this is too much to ask...

Bill, I have the deepest respect for your email list and it is always the first place I think of when I wish to share scientific information.

Dave Marett 
  


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 12 21:21:34 2004
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Jones Beene wrote about voltage fluctuations on high voltage DC charged 
plates:

"What you may be noticing could be related to a particular kind of charge imbalance and the effect of free electrons."

This is an interesting point. Theoretically their will be almost no free electrons in a vacuum however in the absence of any accelerating plate. In the air, this may become a predominant factor. It may be possible to perform the experiment with a Van Der Graph machine but immediatly after charging the plate, the machine must be moved far enough away to not influence the plate charge. Working with such high voltages poses many problems and it may be easier to use AC...

Dave Marett
heliognosis

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Ethics and life-energy meter.
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On Sat, 13 Mar 2004, Dave wrote:

> Bill, please let me know what details you or anyone else requires and I
> will publicly provide you with a solution that you can apply yourself.

Excellent!

It's just that whenever I see anyone selling anything, my alarm bells
ring.   Conflict of interest, possible exaggerations and distortions
as part of advertizing.


One thing I would suggest (if you haven't already tried it...) assume that
the results are just an artifact, and then try to track down the
conventional origin of the noise.  Is it coming from the battery bank?
Capacitors in the amps?  Even better would be to measure the actual noise
contribution from the various sources.  That would help pin down the fact
that the "orgone" signal is a true mystery and not just 1/F noise coming
from an overlooked but conventional source.

That technique is also the sort of thing outside critics look for.  If
someone is only trying to prove their case, that's an earmark of
pathological science.  If they instead try hard to *disprove* their own
case, that's a very good sign that the many other possible mistakes are
being handled.



About high voltage...  I've noticed that a highly charged object will
remain that way for a very long time if it's suspended by a very thin
nylon fishing line. (Or use 3 lines to prevent it from swaying.)  The low
surface area and immense length of the lines gives huge resistance when
compared to most other insulating supports.  If the suspended object is
smooth to prevent corona (or has gobs of silicone caulk on any sharp
portions), then the field surrounding it should be very strong but with
only DC components expected.

For proof of principle, it would be best to eliminate all complicated
hardware.  Do a "Faraday" experiment.  Just crank up the voltage so custom
amplifiers aren't needed, then use something with well known noise
characteristics such as an oscilloscope.  And nothing else.  But if the
frequency of your mystery signal on a charged object is very low, then the
signal probably can't be detected directly by a nearby 10meg probe on a
scope being used as an e-field antenna.  By placing the scope probe into
the strong e-field you'd be forming a capacitive divider on the scope
input, and hence receiving any fluxuations in the e-field from the object.
But the 10meg shorts out all the low freqs (forms a highpass filter, few
pF in series, 10meg as load, few KHz cutoff.)

But with an extremely high impedance FET probe (or perhaps just an opamp
voltage follower with a floating input as the pickup antenna, output
feeding the scope,) any weird AC signals in the space around the charged
object would be detectable without much equipment.  The input impedance
would have to be a few thousand times higher than 10Meg to get down below
1Hz response.  Floating JFET inputs easily do this.

And more interesting, if you're right, such AC signals should only exist
when the charged object is held near the scope probe.  Removing the object
and its strong DC field should not affect any AC environmental noise
component seen by the scope probe, so if the noise does go away when the
e-field goes away, that's verrrry interesting.



Very low frequency noise ('flicker' noise or 'one-over-F' noise) was a
feature of other weird-science claims:

   http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://shaka.com/~kalepa/gwrphome/circuits.htm
   http://amasci.com/freenrg/grav3.html
   http://amasci.com/freenrg/misiolek.txt
   http://amasci.com/freenrg/grado.html

Also note:  signals with fractal components have frequency distributions
like 1/F.     Mmmmmmmm... fractals.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 01:30:42 2004
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From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
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Subject: trace on  mon mars sky Opportunity Sol 4
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:33:02 +0200
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I had noticed a sky trace anomaly at full size image located at page
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/004/1P128541655EFF0205P2353R3M1.HTML
 at that time but not investigated further.

After seeing the photos with title "It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's a...
Spacecraft?" at page
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/004/1P128541655EFF0205P2353R3M1.HTML
I revisited it.

Trace appeared only right panoramic camera taken at 12:18:58 Mars local solar
time, camera commanded to use Filter 3 (16 nm) but not on the left camera taken
at the same time(?) and the same filter
(http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/004/1P128541655EFF0205P2353L3M1.
HTML)

Trace does not appears either on other shots taken within minutes covering same
sky patch with both cameras with different filters. So one can think the trace
was caused by a dust on this specific filter. But this is not justified by the
absence of the trace on a subsequent shot taken by the right panoramic camera
with the same filter
(http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/004/1P128542198EFF0205P2354R3M1.
HTML)

Therefore, it could be transient object either on the sky or on the camera,
affected by the filter changing operation.

On the other hand there is a similarity between bright trace in dark sky photo,
where the trace is attributed to a real  moving
object fast in the sky. Trace is produced by the 15 second exposure time there
but, I dont know the exposure time of the day time photo.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 05:29:01 2004
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All,

See the latest Minato PM motor developements at-

http://japan.com/technology/index.php

Jon F

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 06:48:34 2004
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Subject: Re: Minato PM Motor
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Jon,

Are you a subscriber to the magazine?

I couldn't get to the whole article to see the sidebar and maybe there are some clarifying details, but I'm sure that you noticed immediately the glaring lapse in logic here.

That little lapse would be - that the motor still must draw current off the grid, apparently. If it is capable of getting 200-300 watts of effective output out of 16 watts of input (doubtful) then why not just close the loop and get it off the grid? The advantages of that far, far outweigh the tiny added cost of a 16 watt add-on generator. They go through all these contortions to make the point of overunity but yet it fails the only valid test by not being self-powered. 

This is the question that any journalist with more than PR mentality should be asking and yet it wasn't answered satisfactorily, or if it was it was somewhere hidden. Do you know? Park will have a field-day over this one.


Jones





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 4:26 AM
Subject: Minato PM Motor


> All,
> 
> See the latest Minato PM motor developements at-
> 
> http://japan.com/technology/index.php
> 
> Jon F

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 07:00:46 2004
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Subject: 1/F fractals   WAS:Ethics and life-energy meter.
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:59:50 -0800
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 Hi Bill B,

> Also note:  signals with fractal components have frequency distributions
> like 1/F.     Mmmmmmmm... fractals.


Now that is quite a little teaser.

Could we entice you to expand on that idea ?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 10:43:45 2004
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Hi Jon.

As I remember, the Minato motor was a variation on the
Hamel spinner, a rotor with PM's which would continue
to spin when an activator magnet was held next to
the rotor by hand. It was noted with both devices that they
failed to function when the activator magnet was fixed. 
A similar effect can be seen with a pendulum, which
can be made to swing in a variety of patterns without
conscious intent. 

The article didn't really say much about the new
version of this device. I guess when the machine
hits Wal-Mart we'll have a chance to test one.
Perhaps you (Jon) have more information? Thanks
for the heads up, anyway.

What does all this have to do with new energy? A lot,
and nothing at all. Jones Beene makes the painfully
obvious and futile point that a generator that is many times
overunity should be able to power itself. I imagine
he'd be the guy in Jonestown who, upon sipping from
the punch bowl, would make a sour face and exclaim
"This sure doesn't taste like Kool-Aid to me!"
On the up side, he survives the cyanide poisoning.
On the down side, he's beaten to death by
all the people behind him waiting to drink...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: jonfli [mailto:jonfli cox.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 7:26 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Minato PM Motor


All,

See the latest Minato PM motor developements at-

http://japan.com/technology/index.php

Jon F


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 10:52:50 2004
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Subject: Re: Minato PM Motor
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:50:09 -0600
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Jones,


> Jon,
>
> Are you a subscriber to the magazine?

No, this article was brought to my attention on a different list.

> I couldn't get to the whole article to see the sidebar and maybe there are
some clarifying details, but I'm sure that you noticed immediately the
glaring lapse in logic here.

I too could not find the sidebar referred to in the article.

> That little lapse would be - that the motor still must draw current off
the grid, apparently. If it is capable of getting 200-300 watts of effective
output out of 16 watts of input (doubtful) then why not just close the loop
and get it off the grid? The advantages of that far, far outweigh the tiny
added cost of a 16 watt add-on generator. They go through all these
contortions to make the point of overunity but yet it fails the only valid
test by not being self-powered.

> This is the question that any journalist with more than PR mentality
should be asking and yet it wasn't answered satisfactorily, or if it was it
was somewhere hidden. Do you know? Park will have a field-day over this one.

Agreed. No mention is made of any attempts at self-powereing the device(s)
as far as I could see. Minato has obviously convinced some that his device
will at least save energy as in the convenience store fan example. His
comment of  an average efficiency of 330% is rather curious.

To me, the input and output measurements are basically meaningless due to
the lack of qualified supporting data!

Jon


>
>
> Jones
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 4:26 AM
> Subject: Minato PM Motor
>
>
> > All,
> >
> > See the latest Minato PM motor developements at-
> >
> > http://japan.com/technology/index.php
> >
> > Jon F
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 15:58:06 2004
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Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:00:40 -0800
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Subject: New Energy Times
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The www.newenergytimes.com website has been updated


Steven Krivit
Editor and Webmaster
Los Angeles, California, USA


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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 1/F fractals   WAS:Ethics and life-energy meter.
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On Sat, 13 Mar 2004, Jones Beene wrote:

>  Hi Bill B,
>
> > Also note:  signals with fractal components have frequency distributions
> > like 1/F.     Mmmmmmmm... fractals.
>
>
> Now that is quite a little teaser.
>
> Could we entice you to expand on that idea ?

Not much expansion.  I noticed a couple of different articles in the 80s
mentioning that if you have a fractal image, the spatial frequency has a
big 1/F dependence.  And if you generate a fractal waveform with wiggles
upon wiggles, the frequency spectrum is 1/F.  Though I don't know if 1/F
spectra are invariably a signature of fractal things going on.  Other
things MIGHT have big wide humps with narrow shorter humps riding on them,
and still lesser ones on the small ones.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 19:50:17 2004
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Hi Bill and all,

  To assume that the signal is an artifact first is an excellent idea.
This is what I did three years ago when I first saw it. I have tried at
least 20 differerent circuits with increasingly lower noise floors and
more stable power supplies. All of my efforts to make it go away have
been in vane! The theoretical thermal noise limit for the amplifiers I
am using including the resister noise puts the limit on the 1/F noise at
about 1 microvolt. Even with 1000x amplification this becomes 1mV. The
actual p-p signal is typically 20- 40mV, well above the limit.  I
thought the signal was due to the effects of air ions, but it is present
on a high vacuum plate as well. Finally, the power supply voltage looked
like a potential source of noise, but monitoring this showed that the
voltage and current behave in totally different ways (see the
oscillographs posted with the Vacuum Fluctuation report at
www.heliognosis.com). I am at a loss to explain this phenomena by any
conventional method and thus I have presented the results publicly with
some confidence.

  I like your method of using a suspended plate, and I have also tried
similar arrangements (albeit without the caulk!). The charge certainly
remains on the plate sufficiently long when it is being pulsed many
times a second. The problem with using a conventional scope probe is
that you will see the AC signal on the plate without resolving small
fluctuations of this signal of perhaps 0.02%. To see this in a current
signal, a series resister monitored by a differential amplifier is
required with a least a Schottky rectifier and an RC filter on the
output. The resulting signal will provide an average of the absolute
value of the positive or negative current. Once this is amplified the
fluctuations become apparent.

The misiolek.txt link is very interesting. I used optoisolators as the
first method to monitor current to charged plates. This is the first
place that I saw the fluctuation effect. I abandoned this method over
concerns about dark currents that might generate anomalous
fluctuations.  As it turns out, the vacuum fluctuation effect can be
seperated from these thermal and photonic noise effects. I am convinced
now that we are dealing with a new phenomena.

Dave Marett

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 20:14:12 2004
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Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 20:36:03 2004
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--============_-1132883215==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

If you carefully align the following Spirit panoramic Sol 68 photos,
especially the little crater on top of the hill, and jump back and forth
between the two photos (using alt tab), you will see a little dot in the
air just above the little crater that jumps up and down a few pixels.


<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132405449EFF1800P2287L
5M1.JPG
 >

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132405413EFF1800P2287L
2M1.JPG>

An illusion?  In the first photo, the coordinates of the jumping spot
are 379,424.  A clip of the small crater and spot are attached.

This might be assumed to be a bad pixel in the left panoramic camera.  The
dot does change brightness in response to the differing filters, however.
Further, the bad pixel pointed out by Terry Blanton in photo:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/033/2N129300816EFF0327P1730L
0M1.JPG>

was located at pixel 732,286, far away from 379,424.  A curious little thing.



--============_-1132883215==_============
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Regards,

Horace Heffner          



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 13 21:38:59 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Spirit Heat Shield
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At 8:05 AM 3/12/4, SnowDog wrote:
>This is probably a good color picture of Mars, balanced for white light.
>
>http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm
>
>The heat shield in the distance is so shiny that it prevents the PanCam from
>adjusting any of the filtered images. It's also the only thing that NASA has
>imaged in visible color, in days.
>
>Craig Haynie (Houston)

That looks like a picture looking back at the parachute and shell.  The
heat shield is on the northwest corner of the Bonneville crater.  See
pancam photo:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132398535EFF1800P2285L
2M1.HTML>

which shows heqt shield looking a bit like crash debris, and not nearly as
shiney as shown in the navcam earlier.  Could just be a different sun
angle.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: 1/F fractals   
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William Beaty wites,

> I noticed a couple of different articles in the 80s
> mentioning that if you have a fractal image, the spatial frequency has a
> big 1/F dependence.  And if you generate a fractal waveform with wiggles
> upon wiggles, the frequency spectrum is 1/F.  Though I don't know if 1/F
> spectra are invariably a signature of fractal things going on.  Other
> things MIGHT have big wide humps with narrow shorter humps riding on them,
> and still lesser ones on the small ones.


What I was getting at specifically was wondering if you were onto any kind of
1/f --> ZPE connection. They may be superficial, but there seem to be some coincidental links between the two.

For those who don't see the tenuous connection, it relates to the ubiquity of 1/f "noise" (aka "flicker" or "pink noise") and the possibility that ZPE is a 4-space phenomenon and that its "bleed" into our 3-space is responsible for 1/f. Some parts of fractal geometry are also a visual accounting of how a 4-space object or distribution would look from our 3-space perspective. That is one way how 1/f,  ZPE, and fractals could be linked. BTW, the original meaning of "fractal" was "fractional dimension" although has now become a catch-all phrase for almost any kind of mathematical art.

Like I said, it is a  tenuous connection and probably coincidental. But it is fascinating that 1/f distributions are found in any many types of non-electrical phenomena that are arguably anti-entropic : DNA sequencing, cognition, heartbeat analysis, ecological systems and so on. So-called Kirlian photography could be another example.

Jones

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>At 8:05 AM 3/12/4, SnowDog wrote:
>  
>
>>This is probably a good color picture of Mars, balanced for white light.
>>
>>http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm
>>
>>The heat shield in the distance is so shiny that it prevents the PanCam from
>>adjusting any of the filtered images. It's also the only thing that NASA has
>>imaged in visible color, in days.
>>
>>Craig Haynie (Houston)
>>    
>>
>
>That looks like a picture looking back at the parachute and shell.
>

Yep.  The backshell and chute is also visible in this NavCam image:

 >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/069/2N132492544EFF1800P1946L0M1.JPG<

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>If you carefully align the following Spirit panoramic Sol 68 photos,
>especially the little crater on top of the hill, and jump back and forth
>between the two photos (using alt tab), you will see a little dot in the
>air just above the little crater that jumps up and down a few pixels.
>

The Martian Air Force seems to be a bit overly cautious in observing the 
rovers.  Maybe they have monitored Earth television transmissions and 
recognize the similarity between the rovers and Number Five from "Short 
Circuit" who was equipped with a powerful laser:



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 14 08:33:33 2004
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The pair just to the right of the triplet at:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/048/1M132444465EFF05AMP2956M2M1.JPG

appear to have fibers growing between them.

Or are they recently separated?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 14 09:17:23 2004
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Subject: Re: Minato PM Motor
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Jon,

You are probably aware of the recent evolution of PM motor design where the stator "back iron" is, in effect, allowed to rotate with the rotor and the only true stator left is the copper winding - thus allowing magnets and iron to rotate in unison with a constant flux distribution and giving about as close to 100% efficiency as possible.

And I believe it was you who tried to reproduce the MEG stuff some time ago. 

So my off-the-wall question is this. If you combine the underlying ideas of the above and if OU is possible using PM magnets with some copper windings to accomplish flux gating (which I doubt) why couldn't one start with this so-called "ironless" PM motor design and add to it by using a large tubular magnet on the outside of the copper stator (IOW a large solenoid PM with the poles aligned axially) and use the windings inside of that magnet to rotate its flux in order to the couple with a free rotating core on the inside, which would then couple to the output rotor?

Perhaps that is what Minato is doing.Too bad we can't see the sidebar. Flux gating sounds good but has never seemed to work in practice, yet for it to ever work there would have to be a constant flux distribution and elimination of flux jumping and eddy losses - which a free rotating core might accomplish, even if it had to be mounted independently on its own bearings. I suppose it would have to be a low- conductivity ferrite instead of iron though.

However and I suspect Keith is correct and Minato is a bit into self-delusion.

..."that guy sure talks in circles," reeled Tom, his head spinning.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 14 09:57:51 2004
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Perhaps that is what Minato is doing.Too bad we can't see the sidebar.
>

The sidebar is visible in Netscape:

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is your infrastructure solutions partner, specializing in providing 
multilingual technical consulting, integration, and support services all 
along the IT spectrum.
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business. Regardless of the size of your office we can tailor an IT 
support package to suit your personal requirements.

<end>

It's just an ad.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 14 10:04:18 2004
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In a message dated 3/14/04 12:58:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:


> Jones Beene wrote:
> 
> >Perhaps that is what Minato is doing.Too bad we can't see the sidebar.
> 
</snip>

I see da ja voo also.  I remember the Newman motion, the Takahashi motor, the 
Galtek magnetic motor.

This things don't fit in with my paradigm of thinking.

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/14/04 12:58:21=
 PM Eastern Standard Time, blantont rtpatlanta.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jones Beene wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;Perhaps that is what Minato is doing.Too bad we can't see the sidebar.<B=
R>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&lt;/snip&gt;<BR>
<BR>
I see da ja voo also.&nbsp; I remember the Newman motion, the Takahashi moto=
r, the Galtek magnetic motor.<BR>
<BR>
This things don't fit in with my paradigm of thinking.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 14 12:35:23 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mating Balls
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At 11:35 AM 3/14/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>The pair just to the right of the triplet at:
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/048/1M132444465EFF05AMP2956M
>2M1.JPG<
>
>appear to have fibers growing between them.
>
>Or are they recently separated?


I think neither.  It appears the above is a "before" photo, i.e. before the
scrunch from the spectrometers.  An "after" photo is at:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/046/1M132267006EFF05AMP2937M
>2M1.JPG<


I suspect the balls rest exactly where they were when their gell matrix
surface, their cortex, lost its integrity and they started to sublimate.
In other words the balls were originally both larger and both connected.
What we see remaining now is merely the internal fibrous medulla.  The
sublimation process at this point results in the outer fibrous layer of the
medulla continuously converting to powdery salts and continuously creating
dessicated fungal filaments, all of which eventually ablate in sandy wind
and blow away.  Live fungal spores and bacteria may possibly also blow away
in the process.  I suspect the tendril-like things that remain between the
balls are filament bundles that for some reason did not dessicate as fast,
possibly because they have some special structure, like that of rhizinae or
more likely the precoursers of periphyses, i.e. hair-like projections
inside the ostiole of a perithecium or pycnidial conidioma.  Certainly such
filament bundles between two balls are more protected from the wind than
others, being sheltered by the two close balls.

However, there certainly are other possibilities, like the possibilty you
suggest, that the balls were separated by some force, or the possibility
that some structure was built between the two balls by living tissue.
Funny, it coincidentally almost looks like lines of electrostatic flux
between the balls.  I just feel like the sublimation hypothesis is more
likely.   It seems more consistent, or at least explanatory to me, but it
would of course be much better to hear the opinion of an expert lichen
biologist.

It is also interesting the way the crust forming lichen appears to implant
little units of itself on the balls and munch away.  It is difficult even
to tell if the fruiting bodies are the same species as the crust forming
lichen.  It is not possible to tell if the little crustal matchstick stuff
got there via spores form the ground of vie spores in the fruiting body
itself.   Too bad the rovers don't have lichen test kits (which are very
simple) to distinguish lichen species!  8^)

One thing I am certainly very happy about.  That is that the "blueberry
bowl" they chose to look at has the decaying variety of lichen.  Those
balls have to have some water content.  They are not petrified.  Hopefully
there will remain no reasonable doubt at NASA that they are looking at
living or decaying lifeforms.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Horace Heffner wrote:

>I think neither.  It appears the above is a "before" photo, i.e. before the
>scrunch from the spectrometers.  
>

DOH!  I hate that when it happens.  I've been laid up with some kind of 
bug and haven't been able to keep up with the rovers' downloads.

>Funny, it coincidentally almost looks like lines of electrostatic flux
>between the balls.
>

It does.  And this would likely be Ockham's choice.

>Hopefully
>there will remain no reasonable doubt at NASA that they are looking at
>living or decaying lifeforms.
>

But, though they may believe it, being scientists, they will never say 
so without impeachable data.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 14 14:39:12 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mating Balls
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This is a correction to my last post in this thread.  I mixed up my URLs.
Some other minor correction and additions were made.


At 11:35 AM 3/14/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>The pair just to the right of the triplet at:
>
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/048/1M132444465EFF05AMP2956M
>2M1.JPG<
>
>appear to have fibers growing between them.
>
>Or are they recently separated?

I think neither. Consider:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/046/1M132266947EFF05AMP2987M
2M1.HTML>

It appears the above is a "before" photo, i.e. before the scrunch from the
spectrometers.  An "after" photo is at:

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/046/1M132267006EFF05AMP2937M
>2M1.JPG<


I suspect in the "before" URL the balls rest exactly where they were when
their gell matrix surface, their cortex, lost its integrity and they
started to sublimate.  In other words the balls were originally both larger
and both connected.  What we see remaining now is merely the internal
fibrous medulla.  The sublimation process at this point results in the
outer fibrous layer of the medulla continuously converting to powdery salts
and continuously creating dessicated fungal filaments, all of which
eventually ablate in sandy wind and blow away.  Live fungal spores and
bacteria may possibly also blow away in the process.  I suspect the
tendril-like things that remain between the balls are filament bundles that
for some reason did not dessicate as fast, possibly because they have some
special structure, like that of rhizinae or more likely the precoursers of
periphyses, i.e. hair-like projections inside the ostiole of a perithecium
or pycnidial conidioma.  Certainly such filament bundles between two balls
are more protected from the wind than others, being sheltered by the two
close balls.

However, there certainly are other possibilities, like the possibilty you
suggest, that the balls were separated by some force, or the possibility
that some structure was built between the two balls by living tissue.
Funny, it coincidentally almost looks like lines of electrostatic flux
between the balls.  I just feel like the sublimation hypothesis is more
likely.  It even appears that some of the balls sit in little indentation
about the size the original balls should have been.  It seems more
consistent, or at least explanatory to me, but it would of course be much
better to hear the opinion of an expert lichen biologist.

It is also interesting the way the crust forming lichen appears to implant
little units of itself on the balls and munch away.  It is difficult even
to tell if the fruiting bodies are the same species as the crust forming
lichen.  It is not possible to tell if the little crustal matchstick lichen
stuff got there via spores form the ground or via spores in the fruiting
body itself.   Too bad the rovers don't have lichen test kits (which are
very simple) to distinguish lichen species!  8^)

One thing I am certainly very happy about.  That is that the stuff in the
above URL's (in the "blueberry bowl" I assume) they chose to look at has
the decaying variety of lichen.  Those balls have to have some water
content.  They are not petrified.  Hopefully there will remain no
reasonable doubt at NASA that they are looking at living or decaying
lifeforms.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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--============_-1132807068==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:43 AM 3/14/4, Terry Blanton wrote:

>The Martian Air Force seems to be a bit overly cautious in observing the
>rovers.  Maybe they have monitored Earth television transmissions and
>recognize the similarity between the rovers and Number Five from "Short
>Circuit" who was equipped with a powerful laser:

A serious concern no doubt.  8^))

BTW, "Short Circuit" has to be one of my most favorite movies, and "Short
Circuit II" one of my greatest movie going disappointments.  The former had
a great plot and some great dialog, above average  credibility for its
genre, and some great acting.  The latter short circuited all the above in
my opinion.

As mentioned prior, the jump can be seen in photos:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132405449EFF1800P2287L
5M1.JPG>

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132405413EFF1800P2287L
2M1.JPG>

In the first photo, the coordinates of the jumping spot are 379,424.
Actually the spot is not really "jumping", but rather descending slowly.
The time between the above images was 36 seconds, and the spot is higher in
the first image than in the second.  The hills are to the east of Spirit's
location.

Just for fun I have clipped a pix from the large Mars Global explorer image
of the region.  The dark blotch to the left shows the crater at the top of
the hill.  That crater or depression is just below the jumping object.
Spirit's view is from the left, which is west.  If you size the clip just
right and place it over one of the JPG's noted above, you can see that the
geographical features all line up very nicely.

Since the object is to the east of Spirit, it can not be a setting star or
other astronomical object.

One thing very strange about the region clipped in the photo is that it is
very different from the surrounding surface (which unfortunately is not in
the clip due to size.).  The area just behind the crater has a very angular
structured look.  Also noteworth is that there is a fairly large object in
the left (west) side of the crater.

All just grasping at straws, unlike with the Opportunity berries, which
seem to do an excellent job of carrying their most important truths in
their images all by themselves.

Still, the descending spot is a fun anomaly to consider.

Personally, I like the "alien press" explanation.  The press is everywhere,
so if other intelligent life exists, why would their press not be at Gusev
taking historic photos and writing articles?  8^)   Since we are visiting
new planets it can not be long before we have to endure cultural
assimilation.  8^)

Hope you feel better soon Terry!



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Regards,

Horace Heffner          



--============_-1132807068==_============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 14 18:38:31 2004
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: MARS Spirit .. CD Rock?
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:31:00 -0500
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On Wednesday 10 March 2004 09:59, Horace Heffner wrote:
> At 1:03 AM 3/10/4, Don Wiegel wrote:
> >A "VERY VERY" Round rock?  Is being shown in some of the latest Photos.
> >
> >
> >Panoramic Camera :: Sol 065
> >
> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133848ESF1500P25
> >34R2M1.JPG
> >
> >
> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133713ESF1500P25
> >34L4M1.JPG
> >
> >
> >Microscopic Imager:
> >
> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/065/2M132132493EFF1500P29
> >58M2M1.JPG
>
> That may actually be an impression in the "soil" and not a disk.  It looks
> like the front end of a spectrometer was pushed into the ground there.
> Note that the shadow at the top goes the wrong direction for the thing to
> be a disk.  Compare to the rock shadows.
>
> The thing I find most interesting is that the soil has a crust that looks
> like crustose lichen, like some of the soil at the Opportunity site.  It
> also compresses like lichen, showing the white flat compressed frost-like
> mottled surface like the Opportunity photos.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

tried your links Horace.  Seems that NASA has jerked the pix from the net.
so much for openness.

Standing Bear


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Horace Heffner wrote:

>BTW, "Short Circuit" has to be one of my most favorite movies, and "Short
>Circuit II" one of my greatest movie going disappointments.  
>

Agreed.  Also, the sequel lacked Alley Sheedy.

>The dark blotch to the left shows the crater at the top of
>the hill.  
>

Maybe it's not a crater?  Maybe there is a remnant of volcanic 
activity?  Spewing an occasional boulder? There is still that Mars 
Express image which seems to show such.

>Since the object is to the east of Spirit, it can not be a setting star or
>other astronomical object.
>

Considering that Mars Sol is longer than our day, that's a long way to 
move in 36 seconds.

>One thing very strange about the region clipped in the photo is that it is
>very different from the surrounding surface (which unfortunately is not in
>the clip due to size.).  The area just behind the crater has a very angular
>structured look.  Also noteworth is that there is a fairly large object in
>the left (west) side of the crater.
>

Have you noticed the caves on the hillsides?  Well, they could be 
caves.  This plain is boring, let's head for the hills.  Only 25% or so 
of scheduled life left in Spirit.


>Since we are visiting
>new planets it can not be long before we have to endure cultural
>assimilation.  8^)
>

Resistance is futile. 

Actually, the press did cover the "crash".  But long range photos 
indicated it was just a balloon, or a group of balloons.

>Hope you feel better soon Terry!
>

Thanks.  Weather was great here and I slept through it. :-(

Felt good enough to change the oil on the Echo today.


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Subject: Re: MARS Spirit .. CD Rock?
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At 8:31 PM 3/14/4, Standing Bear wrote:
>On Wednesday 10 March 2004 09:59, Horace Heffner wrote:
>> At 1:03 AM 3/10/4, Don Wiegel wrote:
>> >A "VERY VERY" Round rock?  Is being shown in some of the latest Photos.
>> >
>> >
>> >Panoramic Camera :: Sol 065
>> >
>> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133848ESF1500P25
>> >34R2M1.JPG
>> >
>> >
>> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/065/2P132133713ESF1500P25
>> >34L4M1.JPG
>> >
>> >
>> >Microscopic Imager:
>> >
>> >http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/065/2M132132493EFF1500P29
>> >58M2M1.JPG
>>
>> That may actually be an impression in the "soil" and not a disk.  It looks
>> like the front end of a spectrometer was pushed into the ground there.
>> Note that the shadow at the top goes the wrong direction for the thing to
>> be a disk.  Compare to the rock shadows.
>>
>> The thing I find most interesting is that the soil has a crust that looks
>> like crustose lichen, like some of the soil at the Opportunity site.  It
>> also compresses like lichen, showing the white flat compressed frost-like
>> mottled surface like the Opportunity photos.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Horace Heffner
>
>tried your links Horace.  Seems that NASA has jerked the pix from the net.
>so much for openness.
>
>Standing Bear


As far as I can see they are still there.

For some reason the vortex list server truncates my long lines, but not
some other folks.  Not sure why, but might be due to HTML vs TXT processing
by the list server.  The URL's above are broken into two parts.  You have
to open a browser window and then cut the last part of the URL and paste in
the URL window and then cut and paste the first part onto the front (or
vice versa) before hitting enter on the browser.  For example, the last
characters on the last URL above are not:

"93EFF1500P29".

The last characters are:

"93EFF1500P2958M2M1.JPG".

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Jumping dot anomaly: surprising data
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--============_-1132795989==_============
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I have made an estimate regarding the size of the crater in front of the
jumping (slowly descending) dot using Mars Global Surveyor scaling
information. The crater itself is only about 30 meters wide from far
(north) edge of the crater berm to the far (south) edge of the crater berm.
Assuming the dot is above the ground immediately behind the crater it is
only about 1.5 meters off the ground.

The dot is small, about the size of a head, or a pancam assembly!  8^))
Can it talk?  Is it Number 5 asking for INNNFORRRMAAAATION?  Only a rover
equipped with a microphone could tell for sure!  8^))

The originally posted information follows:

If you carefully align the following Spirit panoramic Sol 68 photos,
especially the little crater on top of the hill, and jump back and forth
between the two photos (using alt tab), you will see a little dot in the
air just above the little crater that jumps up and down a few pixels.


<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132405449EFF1800P2287L
5M1.JPG
 >

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132405413EFF1800P2287L
2M1.JPG>

An illusion?  In the first photo, the coordinates of the jumping spot
are 379,424.  A clip of the small crater and spot are attached.



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--============_-1132795989==_============
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Regards,

Horace Heffner          



--============_-1132795989==_============--

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At 10:43 AM 3/14/4, Terry Blanton wrote:

The Martian Air Force seems to be a bit overly cautious
in observing the rovers.  Maybe they have monitored Earth
television transmissions and recognize the similarity
between the rovers and Number Five from "Short Circuit"
who was equipped with a powerful laser:

Horace wrote:

... Personally, I like the "alien press" explanation.
The press is everywhere, so if other intelligent life
exists, why would their press not be at Gusev taking
historic photos and writing articles?  8^)   Since we are
visiting new planets it can not be long before we have to
endure cultural assimilation.  8^)

Hi All,

Here's another perspective on what the rovers are finding.

Jack Smith

----------------------------

THOTH, A Catastrophics Newsletter, VOL VIII, No 1, March 15, 2004

SPIRIT CHASES A MARTIAN MIRAGE By Wal Thornhill

[editor's note: This article was written as a day-by-day
commentary while the Mars rover missions were in their
early phases of exploration. It reflects only that data
which has been released to the public to date. More will
be added to the holoscience website later.] ...

On January 21, 2004 ground controllers were able to
send commands to Spirit and received a simple signal
acknowledging that the rover heard them, but they did not
receive expected scientific and engineering data during
scheduled communication passes during the rest of that
martian day ...

As discussed later in this report, Spirit is moving about
in an area where there are frequent dust devils. The dust
devils are not simply rotating winds caused by rising warm
air. They are the form lightning takes in the thin Martian
atmosphere. So they are a great hazard to surface craft,
with their powerful electrostatic and electromagnetic
effects. Just as the Galileo spacecraft suffered repeated
computer glitches when it flew too close above the plumes
of the electrical jets on Io, it is possible that Spirit
has become a lightning rod and suffered internal arcing
? with possibly serious consequences for its onboard
electronics. I sincerely hope not!

Full text of this article, with photos,
is available at Wal Thornhill's website,
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=b50z4mj1  ...

Postscript January 29, 2004:  Mars Mission News by
Steve Squyres at Cornell University:

"We're back on track now, after getting a pretty serious
scare from Spirit. Spirit's problems seem to have been caused by
little more than a fouled-up computer file system... not
too different from what can happen when you hit the power
button on your computer accidentally and corrupt a bunch
of files on your hard drive. The JPL flight software team
is hot on the trail of this thing now, and I'm hoping that
Spirit will make a full recovery."

THORNHILL COMMENTS: Since no Martians have been spotted
gazing into Spirit's cameras, we must assume there was
no extraterrestrial digit to 'hit the power button.' But
you can get the same effect on your home computer when
lightning strikes in the neighborhood ...

Spirit is examining the floor of Gusev Crater, which
terminates a large channel called Ma'adim Vallis. I wrote
about Ma'adim Vallis in July 2002, in "Water on Mars?":
". . what is the story of the formation of Ma'adim
Vallis?  An arc cutting Gusev crater will sap electrons
from the surrounding terrain by creating a strong radial
electric field that begins to rip electrons from the solid
surface. When breakdown begins, a lightning bolt tears
across the surface, blasting soil and rock to either side
of its sinuous path. A large proportion of the excavated
material is impelled electrostatically to follow the
main discharge toward space. Pieces not pulled into space
would fall back in a more or less random scattering all
over Mars. That explains why there is little evidence
of deposition inside Gusev Crater from a channel that is
larger than the Grand Canyon. It is also the reason why
every Mars lander has returned a vista of rubble that
extends to the horizon."

See Astronomy Picture of the Day's "Carving
Ma'adim Valles" for a conventional explanation:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020627.html

THORNHILL COMMENTS: Already scientists have begun to
express surprise at the information streaming back from
Spirit.

The press release of 19 January: Scientists chose
Adirondack to be Spirit's first target rock rather than
another rock, called Sashimi, that would have been a
shorter, straight-ahead drive. Rocks are time capsules
containing evidence of the environmental conditions of
the past, said Dr.  Dave Des Marais, a rover science-team
member from NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field,
Calif. "We needed to decide which of these time capsules
to open."

Sashimi appears dustier than Adirondack. The dust layer
could obscure good observations of the rock's surface,
which may give information about chemical changes and other
weathering from environmental conditions affecting the
rock since its surface was fresh. Also, Sashimi is more
pitted than Adirondack. That makes it a poorer candidate
for the rover's rock abrasion tool, which scrapes away a
rock's surface for a view of the interior evidence about
environmental conditions when the rock first formed.
Adirondack has a "nice, flat surface" well suited to
trying out the rover's tools on their first martian rock,
Des Marais said.

"The hypothesis is that this is a volcanic rock, but we'll
test that hypothesis," he said.

THORNHILL COMMENTS: Most of the soil and rock found
on Mars has been recently excavated from the depths
of craters, canyons and channels, like Ma'adim Vallis,
elsewhere on Mars. To gain some perspective, the Valles
Marineris canyons are up to 9 kilometers deep. Mars is a
major source of meteorites and asteroidal bodies (just
two of the latter remain as Mars' tiny moons, Phobos
and Deimos). If the rocks are "time capsules" from the
past it is a very recent past. They have had no time to
weather. And the story they have to tell will not fit any
conventional geological theory.

The scattered rocks are not likely to be volcanic. Many
will have suffered plasma heating and shock effects from a
cosmic electric discharge. The holes in some of the rock
surfaces may be plasma arc craters or they may be due to
trapped gases being explosively released by hot plasma.

Unweathered surface mineral

The press release of 20 January: ""We're starting to
put together a picture of what the soil at this particular
place in Gusev Crater is like.  There are some puzzles and
there are surprises," said Dr. Steve Squyres of Cornell
University, Ithaca, N.Y., principal investigator for
the suite of instruments on Spirit and on Spirit's twin,
Opportunity.

One unexpected finding was the Moessbauer spectrometer's
detection of a mineral called olivine, which does not
survive weathering well. This spectrometer identifies
different types of iron-containing minerals; scientists
believe many of the minerals on Mars contain iron. "This
soil contains a mixture of minerals, and each mineral
has its own distinctive Moessbauer pattern, like a
fingerprint," said Dr. Goestar Klingelhoefer of Johannes
Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany, lead scientist for
this instrument.

The lack of weathering suggested by the presence of olivine
might be evidence that the soil particles are finely
ground volcanic material, Squyres said. Another possible
explanation is that the soil layer where the measurements
were taken is extremely thin, and the olivine is actually
in a rock under the soil.

THORNHILL COMMENTS: Olivine is a common mineral found on
Earth in recent lavas and meteorites.  However, it rapidly
breaks down when exposed to water and weathering. The
soil and rocks on Mars have lain exposed for a mere few
thousand years, not millions or billions of years. They
have not been exposed to water or had time to weather.

Cohesive Soil

The news item continues: "Scientists were also surprised
by how little the soil was disturbed when Spirit's robotic
arm pressed the Moessbauer spectrometer's contact plate
directly onto the patch being examined.  Microscopic
images from before and after that pressing showed almost
no change. "I thought it would scrunch down the soil
particles," Squyres said.  "Nothing collapsed. What is
holding these grains together?"

THORNHILL COMMENTS: Gusev crater is situated in the heavily
cratered southern highlands of Mars.  Crater floors
are formed not by impact but by a rotating arc that
neatly machines the circular crater, leaving a flat
floor. Many smaller craters were subsequently burnt
into the floor of Gusev crater. Today, the area where
Spirit landed is covered with the trails of so-called
"dust devils."  Normal earthly lightning cannot occur
in the thin atmosphere of Mars, Instead it takes the
slower diffuse form of a tornado. We should expect the
electrical activity on the Martian surface, both in the
past and in the present, to produce glassified soil with
the cohesive strength of a fulgurite (sand loosely fused
by lightning). Electric discharges are sometimes used
to immaculately clean a surface. The dark paths left by
the Martian dust devils should show microscopic signs of
having been cleaned by a corona discharge. I would urge
the Spirit team, if possible, to include one of the dark
trails in their traverse.

Chlorine and Sulfur

The news item continues: "Information from another
instrument on the arm, an alpha particle X-ray
spectrometer, may point to an answer. This instrument
"measures X-ray radiation emitted by Mars samples, and
from this data we can derive the elemental composition of
martian soils and rocks," said Dr.  Johannes Brueckner,
rover science team member from the Max Planck Institute
for Chemistry, Mainz, Germany. The instrument found the
most prevalent elements in the soil patch were silicon
and iron. It also found significant levels of chlorine
and sulfur, characteristic of soils at previous martian
landing sites but unlike soil composition on Earth.

Squyres said, "There may be sulfates and chlorides binding
the little particles together." Those types of salts could
be left behind by evaporating water, or could come from
volcanic eruptions, he said. The soil may not have even
originated anywhere near Spirit's landing site, because
Mars has dust storms that redistribute fine particles
around the planet. The next target for use of the rover's
full set of instruments is a rock, which is more likely
to have originated nearby."

THORNHILL COMMENTS: The presence of chlorine and sulfur in
the Martian soil is of special interest because sulfur is
commonly formed in cosmic discharges by fusing two oxygen
atoms together. It is happening today on Io in cathodic arc
jets (mistaken for volcanoes) so that its surface is buried
in sulfur. (Io was probably an icy satellite originally,
like the other Galilean satellites of Jupiter). But there
was another more direct source of these elements for the
Martian soil - the clouds of Venus!

Venus was identified by the ancients as having discharged
spectacularly to Mars for an extended period. For this
reason the thin Martian atmosphere still has a whiff of
the Venusian atmosphere, with its carbon dioxide and
nitrogen. The Russian lander, Venera 12, found that
the clouds of Venus hold 20 times as much chlorine as
sulfur. This discovery was "so difficult to reconcile with
other measurements that American researchers have tended
to ignore or discount them, although no one has explained
why they should be in error." [Venus Revealed, D Grinspoon,
p. 120.] The Martian soil seems to retain a record of the
encounter with Venus. It may also extend to the hematite
deposits at the site of Spirit's twin, Opportunity.

In addition there is a long-standing puzzle concerning the
origin of the chlorine in our salty oceans. There is far
too little chlorine in rocks to account for it. However,
chlorine and sodium are strongly related in low-energy
nuclear transformations of light elements, so both Mars
and the Earth must have had chlorine added to their surface
inventory from external energetic plasma discharge events.

Concentrated plasma discharges are known to produce large
numbers of neutrons. We should therefore expect anomalous
levels of heavy isotopes formed by neutron capture. So
we find the deuterium to hydrogen ratio (D/H) on Venus is
"phenomenally high" at 120 times greater than on Earth. On
Mars it is enriched 6 times the terrestrial value. It may
represent the varying exposures of the three planets to
recent cosmic discharge activity. And as was found on the
Moon, anomalous radioactivity on Mars may be found to be
associated with the focal points of those discharges -
recent craters and other electrical scars.

Spirit Finds Carbonates

On Earth, carbonates such as limestone often form in liquid
water. But one of the biggest Mars mysteries deals with
"missing carbonates." Orbital images show valleys that look
like dry riverbeds, suggesting that liquid water existed on
an early Mars that had a thicker atmosphere and a warmer
climate. If true, large quantities of carbon dioxide
should have dissolved out of Mars1s atmosphere into the
water and chemically reacted with other materials to form
carbonates. But orbital data from Mars Global Surveyor's
instrument reveal much lower carbonate abundances than
predicted. [From SkyandTelescope.com]

THORNHILL COMMENTS: Spirit has found the telltale signature
of carbonates. The problem is to know what tale it is
telling. Mars has changed so drastically in the recent past
that its story may be indecipherable. But it is certain
that it cannot be used to prove that a hypothetical
greenhouse existed on Mars aeons ago.  Any exogenous
interference with Mars' atmosphere and surface material
would tear up this particular history book.

Hollow Mystery for Mars Rover

A close-up image of an undisturbed patch of Martian
soil has revealed a large number of hollow spheres or
tubes. The Mars rover Spirit has completed its first full
set of scientific measurements with the instruments on
its robotic arm, revealing mysterious hollow grains in
the soil. The one-metre arm used its microscope to take
a close-up image of an undisturbed patch of soil next to
the NASA rover. It shows mostly sand-sized particles, but
with a large number of apparently hollow spheres or tubes.

Such grains were completely unexpected. But John
Grotzinger, a geologist at the Massachusetts Institute
of Technology, says they closely resemble formations he
has seen in soils in the southwestern deserts of the US.
"There are little tubes that build up by capillary action,"
he told New Scientist, as salty water evaporates from the
nearly-dry soil. The Martian grains must also be strong
enough to withstand the region's strong winds and perpetual
scouring by dust devils - tornado shaped vortexes that
can tower to heights of kilometres. [From NewScientist.com]

THORNHILL COMMENTS: The lunar surface has been subjected
to electrical cratering and channel formation like that
on Mars. (The only difference is that scientists have
given up the idea that channels, or rilles, on the Moon
were formed by water). A report by scientists studying a
lunar dust sample remarked upon the large number of small
glassy spherules and cylinders. It was their opinion that
"they must have been formed free from restraints, perhaps
blown from a melt as fine droplets or perhaps as a spray
of molten glass; thus they were able to solidify in free
flight under influence of surface tension forces. ..it
is safe to conjecture that the cylindrical object in its
initial molten state was part of a breakup of a thin
jet.. A number of the grayish metallic-like spherules
exhibit vacuole regions within their otherwise solid
interiors.." [Science, Vol. 167, No. 3918, pp. 742-3.]

THORNHILL COMMENTS: A cathode arc melts a surface and
forms a jet of the melted material. The first microscopic
investigation of the Martian soil supports the Electric
Universe model. As for the southwestern deserts of the US,
they were formed by the same electrical erosion processes
that shaped the surface of Mars. We should expect to find
many parallels.

The European Space Agency and Mars Express

"In the testing of hypotheses lies the prime difference
between the investigator and the theorist. The one seeks
diligently for the facts which may overthrow his tentative
theory. The other closes his eyes to these, and searches
only for those which will sustain it."  - Grove Karl
Gilbert, Chief Geologist of the US Geological Survey, 1895.

THORNHILL: In the search for water on Mars there is
a powerful human tendency to see only what you expect
to find. Contrary data is forgotten or dismissed from
consideration. Mirages are easily mistaken for water. For
example, while MER is trundling about the surface the
European Space Agency (ESA) has Mars Express in orbit
about the red planet. ESA has chosen to use one of
the most spectacular sights in the solar system - the
colossal canyons of Valles Marineris ? to publicize their
success. Image data from Mars Express has been used to
generate a perspective view that is like looking out of
an aircraft window.

ESA1s news report says, "One looks at a landscape which
has been predominantly shaped by the erosional action
of water. Millions of cubic kilometres of rock have been
removed, and the surface features seen now such as mountain
ranges, valleys, and mesas, have been formed."

THORNHILL: This offhanded statement from ESA is not
supported by any of the geologists who have studied Valles
Marineris. All now attribute the formation of its canyons
to faulting of the Martian crust. The experts go on to
admit, "However, why the Valles Marineris were faulted to
form deep troughs is not known." It is a mystery because
the answer lies outside the expertise of geologists. It
was explained in Mars and the Grand Canyon and Spiral
Galaxies & Grand Canyons. (www.holoscience.com)

News releases like the one above are untruthful and
self-serving. It seems that both NASA and ESA are dominated
by theorists with one eye on funding, not impartial
investigators. The great canyons and channels on Mars
were not carved by water. There is no need for large
volumes of water hidden beneath the surface to explain
their peculiar features. The few gullies found in crater
walls look as if they have been etched into the wall,
not eroded by water. Mars had surface moisture or ice in
the recent past as shown by "sloppy" electrical craters
but seems to have lost most of it in the energetic events
that caused the cratering.

See ESA images with this article at
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=b50z4mj1

On the left the caption reads: "Crater formed in soft,
probably water-logged ground. Note the splatter marks
(lobate flows) around it."

THORNHILL: Impact splatters do not form lobate
flows. However, the heat from an electric discharge does
cause moisture to 'sweat' to the surface and flow slowly
away from the crater.

On the right the caption reads: "Channels in a Martian
crater probably formed by relatively recent running water."

THORNHILL: In this example the channels were not formed by
running water. The close-up on the right shows clearly
that the large channel is V-shaped in cross-section
with a narrow channel at its base and has transverse
striations. The narrow inner channel remains remarkably
constant in width.  And one channel has crossed another
with no sign of any diversion of material into the
earlier channel. These features are hallmarks of powerful
near-surface electric discharges travelling up the wall of
the crater. The fans at the bottom of the channels must
then have an electrical origin too, taking the form of
diffuse corona discharge streamers ...


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Subject: Re- Hydrogen-powered Weedmobile 
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:00:11 -0600
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Just gather the weeds along the highway (the greener-wetter the better) and keep on
going.   :-)
..........................................................................
United States Patent  5,651,953
Yokoyama ,   et al.  July 29, 1997

"Hydrogen is produced from a cellulose-containing biomass by heating the biomass in
the presence of water and a catalyst at a temperature of 250.degree.-374.degree. C.
and at a pressure higher than the saturated vapor pressure of water. The catalyst
includes a catalytic metal selected from the group consisting of nickel, iron, cobalt,
molybdenum, tungsten, platinum and mixtures thereof"
.....................................................................................
Catalytic converter beads gotten from the junkyard will probably work after they have
been heated in air to burn off the carbon and lead. (Caution!).

Regards

Frederick













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It seems that a one-time pressurization of a small on-board reactor with CO2 (~1050
Psi,70 ATM at 88 F) to start the slightly exothermic reaction of the cellulose with
water at 250 F or more:

C6H10-O5  (162 grams) + 7 H2O (126 grams) ---> 6 CO2 (264 grams) + 12 H2 (24 grams).

 After that a water-biomass slurry can be metered into the reactor at high pressure
with a small hydraulic pump, through an exhaust-gas heat exchanger, while the H2 is
bled off through a ceramic gas filter.

A power cord to run off wall socket during the night might help , too.

Regards,

Frederick


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Jumping dot anomaly: surprising data
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There is also movement in the small crater just below the jumping dot.  In
order to make sure the "movement" was not due to filter changes, the
following two photos were found using filter 2.  Unfortunately they are not
aligned, so carful alignment has to be accomplished befre togelling between
the photos to see the motion.

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132405550EFF1800P2287R
2M1.JPG>

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/068/2P132405413EFF1800P2287L
2M1.JPG>

There is movement of one or two black objects in a left to right direction
along the top rim of the small crater.

Too bad the place is about 2.63 km from Spirit.  It is right at the limits
of resolution.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:47:00 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Madrid and LENR
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Frank Grimer posted;

>
>What would the yield be in tons of TNT if all the
>Deuterium in, say, a 10lb block of saturated metal
>is transmuted to helium?

Given the difficulty of reproducing the phenomena, and the small 
amount of energy released, I think that bomb making is the least of 
our concerns. Put another way, the only bombs involved in LENR 
research are the bomb calorimeters.

>
>If it should prove relatively easy to make a LENR bomb
>then the implications for terrorism are pretty obvious.

Given the difficulties, my preference would be chemical explosives.

>What would the consequences be of a similar
>development in the LNER field?

Anarchy

>World Government perhaps?

The coming world government is inevitable.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 15 14:45:37 2004
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Re- Hydrogen-powered Weedmobile
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:10:49 -0500
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Hi Fred.

Your weedmobile sounds like something from
the feverish minds of Cheech & Chong.

Lets see. Old newspaper's ~100$USD per ton. That's ~.15 tons
of H2. Typical cost ~$100USD per Kg. by the cylinder or $13,600USD
worth of hot air. You might think some genius MBA could build
a business plan around that...

How about hemp as the feedstock? It's the bamboo
of North America. Cheap, and fast growing.

Yep, the big bamboo.

(grin)

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 10:58 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re- Hydrogen-powered Weedmobile


It seems that a one-time pressurization of a small on-board reactor with CO2
(~1050
Psi,70 ATM at 88 F) to start the slightly exothermic reaction of the
cellulose with
water at 250 F or more:

C6H10-O5  (162 grams) + 7 H2O (126 grams) ---> 6 CO2 (264 grams) + 12 H2 (24
grams).

 After that a water-biomass slurry can be metered into the reactor at high
pressure
with a small hydraulic pump, through an exhaust-gas heat exchanger, while
the H2 is
bled off through a ceramic gas filter.

A power cord to run off wall socket during the night might help , too.

Regards,

Frederick



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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Speaking of 1/f and potential overunity.... There is a lot of info on =
the web about PM magnetic levitation, and on Bill B's site:
http://www.amasci.com/maglev/levtr1.html

There is also the prospect that 1/f noise can be captured most =
effectively with a fractal antenna. A few folks will even tell you =
correctly that a tiny amount of free-energy is available by rectifying =
the output of a fractal antenna, or other kinds of efficient antennae =
like the helical torus (CTHA), or Avramenko's plug. Yes, I know. This =
energy could be 'free' but still originate from your local broadcasting =
tower... but nevertheless, it would be interesting to see if it is =
enough to keep a spinning top in motion for a time-frame of years.

The LEVITRON may be a stolen invention, so one probably shouldn't buy it =
from the turkeys that stole it - but nevertheless, we know that when the =
top spins in the range from about 20 to 35 revolutions per second (rps) =
it is stable - but unstable above 40 rps and below 18 rps. After a few =
minutes of spinning it always reaches the lower stability limit due to =
air friction and falls. The spin lifetime of the can be extended to =
about 30 minutes by placing it in a vacuum. There is a "powered" version =
that requires a battery and will spin a very long time even with no =
vacuum.

But there is a way that almost "perpetual motion " could be obtained =
without the battery, if any tiny amount of energy could be rectified =
from 1/f noise, ZPE or whatever. This noise might be somehow increased =
in the vicinity of the spin itself.

The head of Caltech's Physics Dept. has an interesting site:
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/display/displaycase.htm
where he discusses his efforts to keep a top spinning using a battery. =
They achieved almost a year and had it not been for earthquakes and so =
on, it could have been longer.

Go down to the item called: The Perpetual Top and then below that is he =
shows the powered version of the Levitron.=20

I don't know why he didn't even consider replacing the 9 v. battery with =
caps and an antenna - for effect - at least, even if the EM energy is =
coming from broadcast waves instead of ZPE. Maybe the answer is related =
to why he is a prof at Caltech, or maybe its because he has too much =
education and too little inventiveness (and/or exposure to vortex). Most =
progress does come slowly from incrementally advancing the status quo, =
and in my experience, most professors are very good at that but not =
worth much for riskier adventuring. And less educated inventors should =
be thankful as it gives them a window for the occasional big advance, =
unlikely as it might be...and the big advance can start with an accident =
(Goodyear and Curie), or by wiring something up incorrectly (profs =
seldom do that). OK. Enough philosophizing.
  =20
To paraphrase and incorporate the 1/f capture idea into the info from =
the site:=20
The goal of the PM spin top (PM =3D either permanent magnet or perpetual =
motion, depending on you boldness) is to make a device that will spin =
for many years with no battery, only a tiny amount of extra energy which =
could be supplied from 1/f or ZPE, assuming that some of it can be =
rectified.  Perpetual motion may be forbidden by someone's so-called law =
and by our patent office, but our solar system and every atom in our =
body indicates that things can spin for many billions of years without =
loosing much, and that should be adequate encouragement for present =
needs.

The spinning top contains embedded in it a small permanent magnet, =
oriented perpendicular to the spin axis and balanced with a washer near =
the lower end.  The base contains a levitating magnet, a bifilar coil =
around the levitating magnet, an NPN transistor, a capacitor instead of =
a battery, and a fractal antenna. Many who have been around =
"free-energy" ideas for a while will recognize the professor's circuit, =
as modified here, as a tank circuit. That is promising for reasons that =
he might not appreciate. The electrical circuit would need to be =
enhanced from the schematic shown - to include recharging the cap from =
the fractal antenna. Probably a bridge rectifier is all you need between =
the fractal antenna and the cap. This company can supply a fractal =
antenna:
http://www.fractenna.com/

After startup as the spinning magnet slows a bit, it begins to wobble =
slightly and a current is induced in one winding in such a direction as =
to make the base of the transistor (an NPN) go positive.  That makes the =
emitter-collector current flow through winding B, in the opposite =
direction to A.  This should both speed-up and center the spin slightly, =
keeping it in equilibrium. The induction from A to B is regenerative, =
doubly so if you use a true bifilar coil, but there are small losses. =
There is no preference to clockwise or counter-clockwise rotation for =
the top.  Actually you might improve on the good professor's design by =
any number of specialties and gimmicks... Where is Scott McKie when we =
need him?

The beauty of the system is that energy is fed back into the spinner by =
its own control system regardless of how it is spinning, and if the =
device is in a bell jar with a near vacuum, levitated to eliminate =
friction, then the energy required to keep up spin could be miniscule to =
the point of being nearly unmeasurable. Will the fractal antenna supply =
enough to continually recharge the cap(s) and permit perpetual spinning? =
I think there is a fair chance of that.

The only thing that I can guarantee is if it did spin for years with no =
battery... within microseconds of anyone announcing that accomplishment, =
skeptics would jump out of the woodwork to claim that the energy was =
coming... not from ZPE at all but from the plethora of RF broadcast =
waves in any urban area, i.e. from TV, radio, cellular, etc. And they =
would be correct, at least partially.

Would putting the whole thing in a Faraday cage silence the skeptics or =
silence the spinner ?

Jones




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<DIV>Speaking of 1/f and potential overunity.... There is a lot of info =
on the=20
web about PM magnetic levitation, and on Bill B's site:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.amasci.com/maglev/levtr1.html">http://www.amasci.com/m=
aglev/levtr1.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>There is also the prospect that 1/f noise can be captured most =
effectively=20
with a fractal antenna. A few folks will even tell you =
correctly&nbsp;that a=20
tiny amount of free-energy is available by rectifying the output of a =
fractal=20
antenna, or other kinds of efficient antennae like the helical torus =
(CTHA), or=20
Avramenko's plug. Yes, I know. This energy could be 'free' but still =
originate=20
from your local broadcasting tower... but nevertheless, it would be =
interesting=20
to see if it is enough to keep a spinning top in motion for a time-frame =
of=20
years.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The LEVITRON may be a stolen invention, so one probably shouldn't =
buy it=20
from the turkeys that stole it -&nbsp;but nevertheless,&nbsp;we know =
that=20
when&nbsp;the top spins in the range from about 20 to 35 revolutions per =
second=20
(rps) it is stable - but unstable above 40 rps and below 18 rps. After a =
few=20
minutes of spinning&nbsp;it always reaches the lower stability limit due =
to air=20
friction and falls. The spin lifetime of the&nbsp;can be extended to =
about 30=20
minutes by placing it in a vacuum. There is a "powered" version that =
requires a=20
battery and will spin a very long time even with no vacuum.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But there is a way that almost "perpetual motion " could be =
obtained=20
without the battery, if any tiny amount of energy could be rectified =
from 1/f=20
noise, ZPE or whatever. This noise might be somehow increased in the =
vicinity of=20
the spin itself.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The head of Caltech's Physics Dept. has an interesting site:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/display/displaycase.htm">http:=
//www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/display/displaycase.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>where he discusses his efforts to keep a top spinning using a =
battery. They=20
achieved almost a year and had it not been for earthquakes and so on, it =
could=20
have been longer.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Go down to the item called: The Perpetual Top&nbsp;and then below =
that=20
is&nbsp;he shows the powered version of the Levitron. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I don't know why he didn't even consider replacing the 9 v. battery =
with=20
caps and an antenna - for effect&nbsp;- at least, even if the EM energy =
is=20
coming from broadcast waves instead of&nbsp;ZPE. Maybe&nbsp;the answer =
is=20
related to why he is a prof at Caltech, or maybe its because he =
has&nbsp;too=20
much education and too little&nbsp;inventiveness (and/or exposure to =
vortex).=20
Most progress does come slowly from incrementally advancing the status =
quo, and=20
in my experience, most professors are very good at that but not worth =
much for=20
riskier adventuring. And less educated inventors should be thankful as =
it gives=20
them a window for the occasional big advance, unlikely as it might =
be...and the=20
big advance can start with an accident (Goodyear and Curie), or by =
wiring=20
something up incorrectly (profs seldom do that). OK.&nbsp;Enough=20
philosophizing.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>To paraphrase and incorporate the 1/f&nbsp;capture idea into the =
info from=20
the site: </DIV>
<DIV>The goal of the PM spin&nbsp;top (PM =3D&nbsp;either&nbsp;permanent =
magnet or=20
perpetual motion, depending on you boldness) is&nbsp;to make&nbsp;a =
device that=20
will spin for many years&nbsp;with no battery, only a tiny amount of =
extra=20
energy which could be supplied from 1/f or ZPE, assuming that some of it =
can be=20
rectified.&nbsp; Perpetual motion may be forbidden by someone's =
so-called law=20
and by our patent office, but our solar system and every atom in our =
body=20
indicates that&nbsp;things can spin&nbsp;for many billions of years =
without=20
loosing much, and that should be adequate encouragement for present =
needs.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The spinning top contains embedded in it a small permanent magnet, =
oriented=20
perpendicular to the spin axis and balanced with a washer near the lower =

end.&nbsp; The base contains a levitating magnet, a bifilar coil around =
the=20
levitating magnet,&nbsp;an NPN transistor, a capacitor instead of a=20
battery,&nbsp;and a fractal antenna.&nbsp;Many who have been around=20
"free-energy" ideas for a while will recognize the professor's circuit, =
as=20
modified here, as a tank circuit.&nbsp;That is promising for reasons=20
that&nbsp;he might not appreciate. The electrical circuit would need to =
be=20
enhanced from the&nbsp;schematic shown - to include recharging the cap =
from the=20
fractal antenna. Probably a bridge rectifier&nbsp;is all you need =
between the=20
fractal antenna and the cap. This company can supply a fractal =
antenna:</DIV>
<DIV><A =
href=3D"http://www.fractenna.com/">http://www.fractenna.com/</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR>After startup as&nbsp;the spinning magnet&nbsp;slows&nbsp;a=20
bit,&nbsp;it begins to wobble slightly and a current is induced in one =
winding=20
in such a direction as to make the base of the transistor (an NPN) go=20
positive.&nbsp; That makes the emitter-collector current flow through =
winding B,=20
in the opposite direction to A. &nbsp;This should both speed-up and =
center the=20
spin slightly, keeping it in equilibrium. The induction from A to B is=20
regenerative, doubly so if you use a true bifilar coil, but there are =
small=20
losses. There is no preference to clockwise or counter-clockwise =
rotation for=20
the top.&nbsp; Actually you might improve on the good professor's design =

by&nbsp;any number of specialties and gimmicks... Where is Scott McKie =
when we=20
need him?</DIV>
<DIV><BR>The beauty of the system is that energy is fed back into the =
spinner by=20
its own control system regardless of how it is spinning, and if the =
device is in=20
a bell jar with a near vacuum, levitated to eliminate friction, then the =
energy=20
required to keep up spin could be miniscule to the point of being nearly =

unmeasurable. Will the fractal antenna supply enough to continually =
recharge the=20
cap(s) and permit perpetual spinning? I think there is a fair chance of=20
that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The only thing that I can guarantee is if it did spin for years =
with no=20
battery... within microseconds of anyone announcing that accomplishment, =

skeptics would jump out of the woodwork to claim that the energy was =
coming...=20
not from ZPE at all but&nbsp;from the plethora of RF broadcast waves in =
any=20
urban area, i.e.&nbsp;from TV, radio, cellular, etc. And they would be =
correct,=20
at least partially.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Would putting the whole thing in a Faraday cage silence the =
skeptics or=20
silence the spinner ?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 15 18:13:45 2004
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Subject: Re: Minato PM Motor
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Jones,


> Jon,
>
> You are probably aware of the recent evolution of PM motor design where
the stator "back iron" is, in effect, allowed to rotate with the rotor and
the only true stator left is the copper winding - thus allowing magnets and
iron to rotate in unison with a constant flux distribution and giving about
as close to 100% efficiency as possible.

I have to admit that I'm not aware of this particular PM motor design!

> And I believe it was you who tried to reproduce the MEG stuff some time
ago.

Yes, that's correct.

> So my off-the-wall question is this. If you combine the underlying ideas
of the above and if OU is possible using PM magnets with some copper
windings to accomplish flux gating (which I doubt) why couldn't one start
with this so-called "ironless" PM motor design and add to it by using a
large tubular magnet on the outside of the copper stator (IOW a large
solenoid PM with the poles aligned axially) and use the windings inside of
that magnet to rotate its flux in order to the couple with a free rotating
core on the inside, which would then couple to the output rotor?

IMO, the structure you describe above would not affect the magnetic field of
the tubular PM because of it's low permeability (~1). The free rotating core
(assuming ferromagnetic material) would offer a higher permeability and
would therefore provide a lower reluctance path for both the PM and coil's
flux fields.

> Perhaps that is what Minato is doing.

I think Minato's designs are based on a near magnetically balanced
arrangement between rotor and stator in which very little outside force or
energy is required to sustain rotation. This sounds good but one must still
overcome any lenz effects in order for this type of system to produce excess
of 100% efficiency. I do happen to believe this is possible however due to
my own research on near dragless electrostatic generators and perhaps Minato
has discovered how to accomplish this.

Jon

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen-powered Weedmobile
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:48:28 -0600
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Hi Keith.

You wrote;

> Hi Fred.

> Your weedmobile sounds like something from
> the feverish minds of Cheech & Chong

Nope,

United States Patent  5,651,953
Yokoyama ,   et al.  July 29, 1997

It is a Japanese-owned patent.

For the novice: go to this link and paste in the above patent number.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm

They know the hydrogen value of that undigested toilet paper clogging the sewers of
Tokyo, or floating in the East River.   :-)

>
> Lets see. Old newspaper's ~100$USD per ton. That's > ~ .15 tons of H2. Typical cost
~$100USD per Kg. by > the cylinder or $13,600USD worth of hot air.
> You might think some genius MBA could build
> a business plan around that...

Yes, at a cost of 100$USD per ton of cellulose feedstock, a Kg of  H2 produced has a
LHV fuel value about equal to a gallon of gasoline costing $0.67.
>
> How about hemp as the feedstock? It's the bamboo
> of North America. Cheap, and fast growing.

Good idea. In the early 70s, the New Mexico Dept of Ag measured the growth rate of a
"False Bamboo" that is used as an ornamental that is cut to the ground every spring.
It consistently produced over
30 tons per acre (dried to 15% moisture) every year.

Cattle love it (it must contain some sugar) but, it is high in silica uptake and bad
for their tummies. Glass Roots?  :-)

Regards,

Frederick
>
> Yep, the big bamboo.
>
> (grin)
>
> K



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From: Baronvolsung aol.com
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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:31:44 EST
Subject: German scientists prove information travels faster than light to view future!
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Scalar Waves written by Konstantin Meyl shows that the transmission of 
information at speeds faster than light with photons, microwaves, and laser beams 
has been proven at the University of Berkley, Cologne Germany, and Vienna.  When 
information travels faster than light it is received before it is sent out.  
If we send information to ourselves by means of satellites at faster than 
light speeds, we can see the information before we send it on our receivers, which 
means we can look into the future, once we get our communications networks 
set up properly.  The speed of energy or scalar waves can travel faster than the 
speed of light by means of Tesla scalar waves also. 


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, 
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: 
www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

-------------------------------1079494304
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>Scalar Waves written by Konstantin Meyl shows that the transmission of=20=
information at speeds faster than light with photons, microwaves, and laser=20=
beams has been proven at the University of Berkley, Cologne Germany, and Vie=
nna.&nbsp; When information travels faster than light it is received before=20=
it is sent out.&nbsp; If we send information to ourselves by means of satell=
ites at faster than light speeds, we can see the information before we send=20=
it on our receivers, which means we can look into the future, once we get ou=
r communications networks set up properly.&nbsp; The speed of energy or scal=
ar waves can travel faster than the speed of light by means of Tesla scalar=20=
waves also. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
><BR>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dhttp://w=
ww.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html">w=
ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark, <BR>Email: <A=
 title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/=
emailform.html">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A>, Personal Web Page: <A tit=
le=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">=
www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>New Age Production's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://=
www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">www.rhfweb.com\n=
ewage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Services, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.=
com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh</A><BR>Radiation=20=
Health Foundation Trust at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://=
www.rhfweb.com/">www.rhfweb.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1079494304--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 16 19:40:23 2004
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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:40:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Harvey Norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Electrolysis Reseacher Stumbles into Ferrite Heating Anomaly.
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Erstwhile Water Researcher, Harvey D Norris, when
released from incarceration some time ago in 98, then
gleaned about internet for his realization,  expressed
then and still witheld from the common dream, which is
a high voltage high frequency water electrolysis,
seemingly deceased with Meyer, Puharich and lot of the
famous vanished inventors. HDN was using unmagnetised
ferrite blocks as the spacers on his electrolysis
cells because of convenience of available parts, and
his initial belief that these spacers shouldnt be much
of a hindrance leakage wise to the water currents.
Apparently this may be correct, however HDN
encountered a happenstance wanted to test his
imagination to the fullest extent shortly to come. Now
the rainbow is finished, and new things can be seen.
HDN used 3/8 width small ferrite blocs for insulator
spacers. These spacing materials were formerly noted
with special effects noted with AC, where those
effects were thought to be a "pressure effect" that
could be shown not only physically, but also
electrically. The physical effect was direct
mechanical pressure which could give 6 fold amperage 
and capacity increases, and conversely when a very
high resonant voltage potential was placed across the
piece, it became more conductive, but at the same time
released more heat. This same effect on the DC level
borders on MIRACULOUS. The water cell in HDN's 3 phase
alternator resonance system is taken as a midpt
pathway between a two phase 4 diode rectification of
three METR's, maximum energy transfer resonances. The
cell testings themselves showed promises, which
exactly as puharich dictates, the cell currents are
represented as internal tank currents, and this idea
gets magnified to a potentially rediculous degree, as
the test results show.

The accidental discovery HDN has made is that the
testing of the spacers at open circuit, showed that
the water impregnated ferrite almost immediately
exhibited conditioning, or some kind of water
relationship existed there. This was because so much
heat developed that a meltdown of rubber bands around
ferrite spacers to steel rulers developed.

Many tests later developed after the inevitable drunk
hangovers that happen with making observances like
this. So at least a week later, I decide it is for
real and make the first enquirees, and to show some
evidence...

For 4 watts true alternator power delivery, I heat
ferrite red hot, by use of METR inputs; this is over
the unity barrier. For 12 watts a red speck can be
seen, but this is just near over the over unity
barrier. The ferrite looses resistance with heat, and
the hotter you work, the more the overunity angle.
Here I am showing the first evidence of this
(reactive) over unity phase angle extraction with a 4
watt extraction, where the 12 watt extraction is 4
times less efficient for energy releases. I was trying
some ambient magnetisation techniqes of ferrite, and
found that the heat on one trial destroyed my NIB
magnetizing influence.

Daka, be back later...
HDN


=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 16 19:44:49 2004
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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:44:40 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: 1/f fractals and maglev 
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Another source of energy is the 60Hz "tesla wave" transmitted by the USA
power grid.  I've seen articles which point out that the 60Hz b-field is
strong even many tens of miles away from any power lines.  But you need a
a near-infinite-Q 60Hz resonant antenna if you want to grab much energy.
I had a brainstorm.

An extremely high-Q RLC resonator requires superconductors.  But a DC
supercondutive loop resembles a permanent magnet.  What happens when you
SPIN a permanent magnet end over end?  It acts like a crossed pair of
superconductor resonators.  The Q isn't infinite because the spinning
magnet rides on bearings and it stirs the air.  ...unless the air is
removed.  Unless the magnet is levitated!

Combine the ideas and you end up with a "Levitron(tm)" that's designed to
run best at 3600 rpm (60Hz) in a vacuum chamber.  Perhaps its spinner
needs a crosswise-oriented dipolar field to couple with ambient 60Hz RF
waves, as well as the vertical field that keeps it suspended.  Need to
keep all iron away (iron or any material that's lossy for 60Hz b-fields.)

In theory, anywhere on Earth this device can lock onto the local 60Hz
magnetic field which is the "M" part of the EM standing wave trapped in
the earth/ionosphere duct. It will drift into 90deg phase-lag
relationship, which takes in X microwatts and broadcasts X/2 microwatts at
60Hz, leaving an additional X/2 microwatts to drive the spinner.  Will
that be enough?  Maybe the spinner, once started, will drift slowly down
to 60Hz because of tiny frictional losses, then stop at that frequency...
forever.  Or at least until humankind stops using land based 60Hz power
grids!


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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From: Keasy aol.com
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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:59:59 EST
Subject: Re: 1/f fractals and maglev 
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In a message dated 3/16/2004 8:45:55 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
billb eskimo.com writes:

> Combine the ideas and you end up with a "Levitron(tm)" that's designed to
> run best at 3600 rpm (60Hz) in a vacuum chamber.  Perhaps its spinner
> needs a crosswise-oriented dipolar field to couple with ambient 60Hz RF
> waves, as well as the vertical field that keeps it suspended.  Need to
> keep all iron away (iron or any material that's lossy for 60Hz b-fields.)
> 

It certainly seems to me that this would work in principle.  A possible  
problem might be that the power you can get from the 60 Hz fields are pretty low 
unless you are fairly close to a high current wire.  I once had the idea to 
power a small radio from these fields and did the calculations to see if it was 
practical.  It looked practical, but I couild use a medium area loop of many 
turns. (Never did the experiment)

                                                                        Ken

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/16/2004 8:45:5=
5 PM Mountain Standard Time, billb eskimo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000"=
 BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 F=
AMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Combine the ideas and you end=20=
up with a "Levitron(tm)" that's designed to<BR>
run best at 3600 rpm (60Hz) in a vacuum chamber.&nbsp; Perhaps its spinner<B=
R>
needs a crosswise-oriented dipolar field to couple with ambient 60Hz RF<BR>
waves, as well as the vertical field that keeps it suspended.&nbsp; Need to<=
BR>
keep all iron away (iron or any material that's lossy for 60Hz b-fields.)<BR=
>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
><BR>
It certainly seems to me that this would work in principle.&nbsp; A possible=
&nbsp; problem might be that the power you can get from the 60 Hz fields are=
 pretty low unless you are fairly close to a high current wire.&nbsp; I once=
 had the idea to power a small radio from these fields and did the calculati=
ons to see if it was practical.&nbsp; It looked practical, but I couild use=20=
a medium area loop of many turns. (Never did the experiment)<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 17 00:17:02 2004
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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:14:57 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 1/f fractals and maglev 
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At 07:44 pm 16-03-04 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Another source of energy is the 60Hz "tesla wave" transmitted by the USA
>power grid.  I've seen articles which point out that the 60Hz b-field is
>strong even many tens of miles away from any power lines.  But you need a
>a near-infinite-Q 60Hz resonant antenna if you want to grab much energy.
>I had a brainstorm.
>
>An extremely high-Q RLC resonator requires superconductors.  But a DC
>supercondutive loop resembles a permanent magnet.  What happens when you
>SPIN a permanent magnet end over end?  It acts like a crossed pair of
>superconductor resonators.  The Q isn't infinite because the spinning
>magnet rides on bearings and it stirs the air.  ...unless the air is
>removed.  Unless the magnet is levitated!
>
>Combine the ideas and you end up with a "Levitron(tm)" that's designed to
>run best at 3600 rpm (60Hz) in a vacuum chamber.  Perhaps its spinner
>needs a crosswise-oriented dipolar field to couple with ambient 60Hz RF
>waves, as well as the vertical field that keeps it suspended.  Need to
>keep all iron away (iron or any material that's lossy for 60Hz b-fields.)
>
>In theory, anywhere on Earth this device can lock onto the local 60Hz
>magnetic field which is the "M" part of the EM standing wave trapped in
>the earth/ionosphere duct. It will drift into 90deg phase-lag
>relationship, which takes in X microwatts and broadcasts X/2 microwatts at
>60Hz, leaving an additional X/2 microwatts to drive the spinner.  Will
>that be enough?  Maybe the spinner, once started, will drift slowly down
>to 60Hz because of tiny frictional losses, then stop at that frequency...
>forever.  Or at least until humankind stops using land based 60Hz power
>grids!


Isn't there one slight snag to this scheme. You would be drawing power
from the grid and, in theory at least, you could be sued by the 
electricity company/ies.  <g>

I seem to remember reading about some Brit who lived under high transmission
lines and lit up their house by means of a coil wound around it. He was
prosecuted for theft since the law does not distinguish between conduction
and induction.   ;-)

Cheers

Frank Grimer

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According to the Brazilian article below, a certain strain of sugarcane can produce 72
tons of biomass per acre-year. I think the "False Bamboo" that grows around here is
related and like sugarcane, fixes it's own nitrogen too.

With about 40% fixed carbon, the equivalent of 28 tons of coal per acre-year can be
grown.

Since we can't use Brazil's tropical land/Rain Forests, hectare-sized floating
"bubble-wrap" barges filled with a few feet of topsoil, equipped with Photo-Voltaic
powered reverse osmosis equipment deployed to the tropics, would make for portable
energy plantations.

OTOH,  Dubya could have the navy put a few feet of topsoil on the deck of an aircraft
carrier and deploy it to Haiti for a year.

http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Metric/number-acres.html

http://www.embrapa.br/english/techno/sugarcan.htm

"Sugarcane is capable of taking from the air the nitrogen needed for its
development.This takes place through the association established with nitrogen fixing
bacteria.
The most promising cultivars, CB 45-3 and SP 70-1143, can produce up to 180t/ha - or
three times the national average in soils of very low fertility, without nitrogenous
fertilization. In this case, investments for nitrogenous fertilization can be utilized
for irrigation and complementing micro-nutrients (molybdenum), making the growing of
sugarcane even more economical and energy efficient."

Regards,

Frederick


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http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?i=1&n=3

K.

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--part1_8d.603648c.2d89cf51_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I used an image map to vector the questions to right and wrong html pages.
I employed the browser cookie to keep score.  I added wav sounds and gif 
pictures.
It's a little slow on dial up lines.  The 2d time through, after the pictures 
and sounds are downloaded, through it runs faster.  The whole thing was done 
in HTML with not special software.  You can do this to.

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/test.html

enjoy  

Frank Znidarsic

--part1_8d.603648c.2d89cf51_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I used an image map to vector the q=
uestions to right and wrong html pages.<BR>
I employed the browser cookie to keep score.&nbsp; I added wav sounds and gi=
f pictures.<BR>
It's a little slow on dial up lines.&nbsp; The 2d time through, after the pi=
ctures and sounds are downloaded, through it runs faster.&nbsp; The whole th=
ing was done in HTML with not special software.&nbsp; You can do this to.<BR=
>
<BR>
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/test.html<BR>
<BR>
enjoy&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8d.603648c.2d89cf51_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 17 09:35:17 2004
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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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        a-albionic yahoogroups.com, Baronvolsung@aol.com
Subject: Re: German scientists prove information travels faster than light to view future!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:34:34 -0600
Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc.
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:31:44 EST, you wrote:

>Scalar Waves written by Konstantin Meyl shows that the transmission of 
>information at speeds faster than light with photons, microwaves, and laser beams 
>has been proven at the University of Berkley, Cologne Germany, and Vienna.  When 
>information travels faster than light it is received before it is sent out.

---
No, it isn't.  It would be merely be received in less time than it would
take if it was being transmitted conventionally.
---
 
>If we send information to ourselves by means of satellites at faster than 
>light speeds, we can see the information before we send it on our receivers, which 
>means we can look into the future, once we get our communications networks 
>set up properly.

---
No it doesn't.  All it means is we would receive the information more
quickly than if it were transmitted by conventional means.
---

>The speed of energy or scalar waves can travel faster than the 
>speed of light by means of Tesla scalar waves also.

---
Perhaps, put I don't think a transmitter-receiver pair has yet been
built which proves that superluminal communications has been achieved. 

-- 
John Fields


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--------------000000010209070107030001
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Grimer wrote:

>>In theory, anywhere on Earth this device can lock onto the local 60Hz
>>magnetic field which is the "M" part of the EM standing wave trapped in
>>the earth/ionosphere duct. It will drift into 90deg phase-lag
>>relationship, which takes in X microwatts and broadcasts X/2 microwatts at
>>60Hz, leaving an additional X/2 microwatts to drive the spinner.  Will
>>that be enough?  Maybe the spinner, once started, will drift slowly down
>>to 60Hz because of tiny frictional losses, then stop at that frequency...
>>forever.  Or at least until humankind stops using land based 60Hz power
>>grids!
>>    
>>
>
>
>Isn't there one slight snag to this scheme. You would be drawing power
>from the grid and, in theory at least, you could be sued by the 
>electricity company/ies.  <g>
>
>I seem to remember reading about some Brit who lived under high transmission
>lines and lit up their house by means of a coil wound around it. He was
>prosecuted for theft since the law does not distinguish between conduction
>and induction.   ;-)
>
>Cheers
>
>Frank Grimer
>

But it could be to the power company's advantage.  There was a  trick 
question in engineering school
about how a farmer could extract power from the power lines, and save 
the power company money at the same time:

If the power lines go around the edge of the farmer's land, and he 
attaches a conductor at each corner and uses the energy
due to the voltage difference from one corner to the other, he's still 
lowering the losses in the transmission lines.
(parallel path for the current).  Similarly, it may be that transmission 
losses occur whether one extracts the energy or not.


Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona

>
>
>  
>


--------------000000010209070107030001
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
<br>
<br>
Grimer wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid2.2.32.20040317081457.0069e570 pop.freeserve.net">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">
In theory, anywhere on Earth this device can lock onto the local 60Hz
magnetic field which is the "M" part of the EM standing wave trapped in
the earth/ionosphere duct. It will drift into 90deg phase-lag
relationship, which takes in X microwatts and broadcasts X/2 microwatts at
60Hz, leaving an additional X/2 microwatts to drive the spinner.  Will
that be enough?  Maybe the spinner, once started, will drift slowly down
to 60Hz because of tiny frictional losses, then stop at that frequency...
forever.  Or at least until humankind stops using land based 60Hz power
grids!
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

Isn't there one slight snag to this scheme. You would be drawing power
from the grid and, in theory at least, you could be sued by the 
electricity company/ies.  &lt;g&gt;

I seem to remember reading about some Brit who lived under high transmission
lines and lit up their house by means of a coil wound around it. He was
prosecuted for theft since the law does not distinguish between conduction
and induction.   ;-)

Cheers

Frank Grimer</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
But it could be to the power company's advantage. &nbsp;There was a &nbsp;trick question
in engineering school<br>
about how a farmer could extract power from the power lines, and save the
power company money at the same time:<br>
<br>
If the power lines go around the edge of the farmer's land, and he attaches
a conductor at each corner and uses the energy<br>
due to the voltage difference from one corner to the other, he's still lowering
the losses in the transmission lines. <br>
(parallel path for the current). &nbsp;Similarly, it may be that transmission
losses occur whether one extracts the energy or not.<br>
<br>
<br>
Hoyt Stearns<br>
Scottsdale, Arizona<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid2.2.32.20040317081457.0069e570 pop.freeserve.net">
  <pre wrap="">


  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------000000010209070107030001--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 17 18:28:16 2004
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Message-ID: <006e01c40c90$77ec1100$6401a8c0 Craig>
From: "SnowDog" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
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Subject: Hematite!
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They've identified the blueberries as hematite.

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/mars_blueberries_040317.html

More evidence for water...

Craig


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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <006e01c40c90$77ec1100$6401a8c0 Craig>
Subject: Re: Hematite! NOMENCLATURE ALERT
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Craig wrote:

> They've identified the blueberries as hematite.
>
> http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/mars_blueberries_040317.html
>
> More evidence for water...
>
> Craig
----------------------
That's fine, but there are other spherical objects discussed here which I
and others have called 'blueberries' for want of a better name. These are
very definitely *not* what are illustrated in the linked article as
heamtite. In no way will hematiite spheres match the characteristics seen in
some of the images, like growing on a stalk.

We need another name, else we may slip into the illusion that those objects
have been 'explained' which is definitely not the case.

Mike Carrell


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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: German scientists prove information travels faster than light to view future!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:17:03 -0500
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On Wednesday 17 March 2004 12:34, John Fields wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:31:44 EST, you wrote:
> >Scalar Waves written by Konstantin Meyl shows that the transmission of
> >information at speeds faster than light with photons, microwaves, and
> > laser beams has been proven at the University of Berkley, Cologne
> > Germany, and Vienna.  When information travels faster than light it is
> > received before it is sent out.
>
> ---
> No, it isn't.  It would be merely be received in less time than it would
> take if it was being transmitted conventionally.
> ---
>
> >If we send information to ourselves by means of satellites at faster than
> >light speeds, we can see the information before we send it on our
> > receivers, which means we can look into the future, once we get our
> > communications networks set up properly.
>
> ---
> No it doesn't.  All it means is we would receive the information more
> quickly than if it were transmitted by conventional means.
> ---
>
> >The speed of energy or scalar waves can travel faster than the
> >speed of light by means of Tesla scalar waves also.
>
> ---
> Perhaps, put I don't think a transmitter-receiver pair has yet been
> built which proves that superluminal communications has been achieved.


May be so, but let us allow him to prove otherwise;  and/or anyone else while
we are at it.  After all, another forgotten group of 'professional skeptics' 
from another age, the 1940's and before, postulated that man would 
never conquer the sound barrier.  They said we would shake ourselves
apart.   After the goal was reached, all the voices of fashionable 
skepticism faded into the woodwork and into the night never to be seen
or heard from again.  It was no longer possible to keep ones job or
grant or take another's away from them by spouting dogma.  Quite the
opposite as the cold light of new truth drove the Phillistines out of at
least THAT temple.

If we are to avoid a new dark age of feudalism and exploitation of man  by 
man, we will need these people that dare to think 'out of the box' as Marc
Millis put it while he was in charge of the late 'breakthrough physics'
group.  Otherwise we are fated to be thrown back on ourselves and into
a world of limited resource and no hope.  The earth is a big place, but
we are a big race and outgrowing our womb.  We need to be able to
reach out.   First to our local system for more resources and energy,
then to other local star systems.  Out there are virtually limitless
resources, and we are only now beginning to attain the enabling technologies
to be able to exploit them.  Out there also are isolated spaces in which
to test ideas and technologies that may be hazardous on our  home world.

Granted new ideas are messy.  And dangerous on occasion!   But human
progress is charted on an eneven course of  odd milestones.  The simple
invention of a new process for waterproof cement for mortar to proof stone
walls against hydraulic pressure enabled the city to New York to become
the metropolis it is today.  The waterproof walls enabled canal locks
on the Erie Canal to be built economically from local materials.  This led
to an explosion of commerce that made New York City its hub.  Another such
new idea is the space elevator.  Just think of what a long fiber nanotube 
will enable if an when it can lower delivered pound of cargo to high earth
orbit or interplanetary transit....from 10,000 dollars a pound to 10 dollars
a pound.  Or think of what a MITEE engine of an output similar to a Russian
Proton rocket could do to transform the Russian Buran design LEO shuttle
into a true space shuttle with interplanetary capabilities in a single stage.

It WILL be done.  If not by us, then by the Chinese.  Who then will truly be
more fit to lead the human race to greatness.

Standing  Bear


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Subject: Re: Floating Energy Plantations
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Thank you for this post. 


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, 
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: 
www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

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<DIV>Thank you for this post. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
><BR>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dhttp://w=
ww.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html">w=
ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark, <BR>Email: <A=
 title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/=
emailform.html">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A>, Personal Web Page: <A tit=
le=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">=
www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>New Age Production's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://=
www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">www.rhfweb.com\n=
ewage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Services, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.=
com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh</A><BR>Radiation=20=
Health Foundation Trust at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://=
www.rhfweb.com/">www.rhfweb.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Baronvolsung aol.com
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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:46:41 EST
Subject: Re: German scientists prove information travels faster than light to view fut...
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 3/17/2004 1:22:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Lucky artsound.com writes:
The problem with time. Everything in the universe is a phase and phases 
switch. Hence also time is a phase. I think it is a mistake to think of time only 
from our below speed of light aspect of our physical body. As a human I am body 
and spirit. In effect the direction of time works the other way around 
(otherway phase direction) when the speed is higher then that of light. If we call 
the direction of our physical senses from past to future, then when the energy 
oscilates a the speed higher than that of light the time direction is the 
otherway around, hence from future to the past. This is why vision and spiritual 
things work from the future to the past in the form of intuition and sometimes 
prophecy. I wouldn't call this time travel though.
Furthermore I assume that everything in the universe is circular hence also 
the directions of time in the physical and non physical world might switch at 
some stage. A period like that I like to call Aeon. I don't think this is time 
travel, although it might be that at the point in phaseswitch where the body's 
and spirit;s time experience converge it might be possible to travel to 
another convergion point. Alas, this is all difficult matter and John Dee was 
sentenced to death by the Jesuit Cardinal Bellardin, after he had stripped him of 
all information regarding this though....


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, 
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: 
www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

-------------------------------1079592401
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
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<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 3/17/2004 1:22:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, Lucky ar=
tsound.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The problem with time. Everything in=20=
the universe is a phase and phases switch. Hence also time is a phase. I thi=
nk it is a mistake to think of time only from our below speed of light aspec=
t of our physical body. As a human I am body and spirit. In effect the direc=
tion of time works the other way around (otherway phase direction) when the=20=
speed is higher then that of light. If we call the direction of our physical=
 senses from past to future, then when the energy oscilates a the speed high=
er than that of light the time direction is the otherway around, hence from=20=
future to the past. This is why vision and spiritual things work from the fu=
ture to the past in the form of intuition and sometimes prophecy. I wouldn't=
 call this time travel though.<BR>Furthermore I assume that everything in th=
e universe is circular hence also the directions of time in the physical and=
 non physical world might switch at some stage. A period like that I like to=
 call Aeon. I don't think this is time travel, although it might be that at=20=
the point in phaseswitch where the body's and spirit;s time experience conve=
rge it might be possible to travel to another convergion point. Alas, this i=
s all difficult matter and John Dee was sentenced to death by the Jesuit Car=
dinal Bellardin, after he had stripped him of all information regarding this=
 though....</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
><BR>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dhttp://w=
ww.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html">w=
ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark, <BR>Email: <A=
 title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/=
emailform.html">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A>, Personal Web Page: <A tit=
le=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">=
www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>New Age Production's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://=
www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">www.rhfweb.com\n=
ewage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Services, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.=
com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh</A><BR>Radiation=20=
Health Foundation Trust at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://=
www.rhfweb.com/">www.rhfweb.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1079592401--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 00:04:56 2004
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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:04:48 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Need I say More???
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On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Keith Nagel wrote:

> http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?i=1&n=3

OK, I have a TV antenna taped to my head.  Nothing.

Wait.   Tinfoil wasn't adjusted right.  That's better.  Something's
coming...

It looks like tinfoil hats are misguided;  it's iron foil or mu-metal hats
that you need.  Here's the .pdf of the paper recently published at the UW:

   60Hz b-fields break neuronal DNA, kill brain cells, effect is
   halted with melatonin,  vitamin-E or iron chelation
   http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2004/6355/6355.pdf

   About the photos and the DNA-break assay method
   http://www.electric-words.com/cell/electaus/electrophoresis.html

And various articles:

  http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bsingh+%2Blai+%2Bwashington+%2Bfields




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:10:35 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 1/f fractals and maglev
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At 06:31 pm 17-03-04 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Grimer wrote:
>
>>>In theory, anywhere on Earth this device can lock onto the local 60Hz
>>>magnetic field which is the "M" part of the EM standing wave trapped in
>>>the earth/ionosphere duct. It will drift into 90deg phase-lag
>>>relationship, which takes in X microwatts and broadcasts X/2 microwatts at
>>>60Hz, leaving an additional X/2 microwatts to drive the spinner.  Will
>>>that be enough?  Maybe the spinner, once started, will drift slowly down
>>>to 60Hz because of tiny frictional losses, then stop at that frequency...
>>>forever.  Or at least until humankind stops using land based 60Hz power
>>>grids!
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>
>>Isn't there one slight snag to this scheme. You would be drawing power
>>from the grid and, in theory at least, you could be sued by the 
>>electricity company/ies.  <g>
>>
>>I seem to remember reading about some Brit who lived under high transmission
>>lines and lit up their house by means of a coil wound around it. He was
>>prosecuted for theft since the law does not distinguish between conduction
>>and induction.   ;-)
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Frank Grimer
>>
>
>But it could be to the power company's advantage.  There was a  trick 
>question in engineering school
>about how a farmer could extract power from the power lines, and save 
>the power company money at the same time:
>
>If the power lines go around the edge of the farmer's land, and he 
>attaches a conductor at each corner and uses the energy
>due to the voltage difference from one corner to the other, he's still 
>lowering the losses in the transmission lines.
>(parallel path for the current).  Similarly, it may be that transmission 
>losses occur whether one extracts the energy or not.
>
>
>Hoyt Stearns
>Scottsdale, Arizona


I'll take your word for it since that's way above my head   8-)

When I was in first year Civils we were doing a practical on a series
wound motor. I noticed that the ammeter was connected up the
wrong way round and the pointer was winding back hard against 
the stop. I disconnected it in order to connect it the right way

BIG BLUE FLASH.

MOTOR START TO RAPIDLY ACCELERATE.

LECTURER LEAPS FOR THE OFF SWITCH.

He explained later to a very shocked student that if he hadn't
the motor would have accelerated to destruction and pieces 
of student would be flying all around the lab.

After that they only let me hold the thingee that measures 
rotor speed.  :-(

And I have been very wary of all things electrical ever since  ;-)

Cheers  

Frank

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Frank,

> When I was in first year Civils we were doing a practical on a series
> wound motor. I noticed that the ammeter was connected up the
> wrong way round and the pointer was winding back hard against 
> the stop. I disconnected it in order to connect it the right way
> 
> BIG BLUE FLASH.


A brief flash that could add new meaning to the term 'short circuit'... eh?

...or as you Brit's are wont to say, "fouling one's knickers"... actually, by now we yanks have likely corrupted the language enough that you can even get our lame puns...

Jones



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At 06:49 am 18-03-04 -0800, you wrote:
>Frank,
>
>> When I was in first year Civils we were doing a practical on a series
>> wound motor. I noticed that the ammeter was connected up the
>> wrong way round and the pointer was winding back hard against 
>> the stop. I disconnected it in order to connect it the right way
>> 
>> BIG BLUE FLASH.
>
>
>A brief flash that could add new meaning to the term 'short circuit'... eh?
>
>...or as you Brit's are wont to say, "fouling one's knickers"... actually, by now we yanks have likely corrupted the language enough that you can even get our lame puns...
>
>Jones

LOL  Actually, I have never heard the expression 
"fouling one's knickers", but then I went to an 
all boys school and had 3 brothers, no sisters 
- so I wouldn't have. It sounds to me like the 
argot of posh girls' boarding schools, like 
Roedean. 
  
In my schooldays the expression was 
"messing one's pants" pants being the under garment, 
not the over garment. [US pants = UK trousers] 
but I expect in this uncouth era thanks to the 
deplorable influence of the US film industry,<g>
a boy would say, "I shit myself"  ;-)

As for the pun, I get the brief flash bit
....but don't explain the rest - please! 
Where ignorance is bliss.....  ;-)

Frank

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: take the cold fusion test
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:19:24 -0500
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On Wednesday 17 March 2004 10:57, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
> I used an image map to vector the questions to right and wrong html pages.
> I employed the browser cookie to keep score.  I added wav sounds and gif
> pictures.
> It's a little slow on dial up lines.  The 2d time through, after the
> pictures and sounds are downloaded, through it runs faster.  The whole
> thing was done in HTML with not special software.  You can do this to.
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/test.html
>
> enjoy
>
> Frank Znidarsic

Took the test;   did fine;  learned a few things.  The comment about CETI was
very interesting.  A little searching turned up a site saying that the CETI 
folks showed up at a show in 1995 with their CF device (or hydrogen device
as the Japanese call it now).  The page claimed an output in excess of 1000
watts for a 10 watt input.  The CF test said that the device had an overunity
output of 1000 watts or more for a 90 watt input.  Still impressive. 
   However I was worried when I found that the page was many years old...
from about 1995...., and I had not heard about that device since.  I only
got the test question right because of guessing.  Went googling and found
the only Clean Energy Technologies Inc in the country right now has a phone
number of 1-775-823-9889 and may  be in Nevada, not in Houston Texas.
   A little more googling turned up the company not in the United States but
instead in Korea, South Korea.  This company has a web site and it
is:
                http://www.ceti-fuelcell.com/main.php

The page is in Korean but the site has an English translation available.
The company uses the name and is in the fuel cell business.  I am not
sure that they are or are not doing CF though.  Pages load  better in
Konqueror as the site appears not to like Mozilla for some reason--links
are not clickable.   Maybe just a glitch.

   Be too bad if they had sank out of sight.

Standing Bear


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 08:18:42 2004
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Reply-To: <dwiegel comcast.net>
From: "Don Wiegel" <dwiegel comcast.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Need I say More???
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:18:17 -0700
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A subject Vortex is familiar with:  The question of replication

http://www.electric-words.com/cell/electaus/electrophoresis3.html

"How objective can a scientist be, when Motorola funds the research, uses
confidentiality agreements, and has lawyers following them to conferences to
maintain confidentiality?"

>From Dr Roti Roti's personal home page in late 1998:



   | -----Original Message-----
   | From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
   | Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 1:05 AM
   | To: Vortex
   | Subject: Re: Need I say More???
   | 
   | On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Keith Nagel wrote:
   | 
   | > http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?i=1&n=3
   | 
   | OK, I have a TV antenna taped to my head.  Nothing.
   | 
   | Wait.   Tinfoil wasn't adjusted right.  That's better.  Something's
   | coming...
   | 
   | It looks like tinfoil hats are misguided;  it's iron foil or mu-metal
hats
   | that you need.  Here's the .pdf of the paper recently published at the
UW:
   | 
   |    60Hz b-fields break neuronal DNA, kill brain cells, effect is
   |    halted with melatonin,  vitamin-E or iron chelation
   |    http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2004/6355/6355.pdf
   | 
   |    About the photos and the DNA-break assay method
   |    http://www.electric-words.com/cell/electaus/electrophoresis.html
   | 
   | And various articles:
   | 
   | 
   | http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bsingh+%2Blai+%2Bwashington+%2Bfi
   | elds
   | 
   | 
   | 
   | 
   | (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
   | William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
   | billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
   | EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
   | Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 08:50:54 2004
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: Need I say More???
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:15:36 -0500
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Hi Bill.

There, but for the grace of the angels, go I...

You know, when Sutton first published his work on the "black hole antenna"
I built a copy to experiment with. ( great stuff on modern superregenerative
design, if other Vo's are unfamiliar go to NASA and get the papers ).

Working in the lab, I was not surprised to find myself saturated with
60Hz radiation. So I packed up the gear, and headed into the middle
of a state park. There, amidst a herd of especially curious deer, I
set up shop and was _quite_ surprised to again find substantial 60Hz
field. I remember the choice of 60Hz was related to Teslas desire
to broadcast power, the freq being roughly in line with an earth
resonant mode. Which I guess is my problem with 60Hz medical
claims; the entire earth has been a lab for this over the past
~75 years. The effect must be very small, if at all, or we'd
all be dead?

So I was out in this park making measurements, and I'm using
a true RMS meter to monitor the output of the device. Suddenly
I notice a huge spike on output power. "What the hell??? Here it
comes again!" I rushed to the car to grab a pair of headphones,
lacking a scope to characterize the signal. Imagine my dismay
when I plugged in and heard a gravelly voice proclaim,
"Breaker one nine, I got me a Smokey on Rt. 17 northbound"

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:05 AM
To: Vortex
Subject: Re: Need I say More???


On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Keith Nagel wrote:

> http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?i=1&n=3

OK, I have a TV antenna taped to my head.  Nothing.

Wait.   Tinfoil wasn't adjusted right.  That's better.  Something's
coming...

It looks like tinfoil hats are misguided;  it's iron foil or mu-metal hats
that you need.  Here's the .pdf of the paper recently published at the UW:

   60Hz b-fields break neuronal DNA, kill brain cells, effect is
   halted with melatonin,  vitamin-E or iron chelation
   http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2004/6355/6355.pdf

   About the photos and the DNA-break assay method
   http://www.electric-words.com/cell/electaus/electrophoresis.html

And various articles:

  http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bsingh+%2Blai+%2Bwashington+%2Bfields




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 09:24:18 2004
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Subject: Re: Hematite!
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"Hematite as a major compositional phase in the spherules supports
their formation via precipitation, rather than as impact-related fallout,"
Garvin said.

Impact-related fallout hypothesis is so poor that, I suspect people that
introduce this hypothesis  had never examined various images.

Formation via precipitation is also poor because, many BB's are grown
or developed on the upper edges of rocks, many still in their odd places,
and appears they are still developing because their fragile
attachments to rocks can not survive millions of years (if the hypothesis
require they were developed long time ago, when water was abundant).

Pictures also suggest that they are developed and grew by opposing to
the gravity, in absence of carrying medium, unless they are lighter than a
volatile medium which are not currently present there. ( See sol 49 photos)

BB's standing on rock by attachment appears having a preferred direction
coinciding to wind direction, also their positions.

I dont know how the concluded to hematite, but I think this would be only valid
by
pre-assumption of inorganic origin.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 18 March 2004 04:26
Subject: Hematite!


> They've identified the blueberries as hematite.
>
> http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/mars_blueberries_040317.html
>
> More evidence for water...
>
> Craig
>
>

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Subject: Lot of filaments in Sprit sol73 microscopic images
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See full size images at pages
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/spirit_m073.html
It appears lot of long and short thin filaments embedded in the texture. Texture
in turn appears a solidified
material impacted by rain drops of something. Solidified material should be thin
enough to protect
profile of the filaments.


Note that these filaments are in smooth shapes, not look like as cracks.




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Congratulations, the Cold Fusion Report you and Nadine wrote is
excellent.  I hope you can get this recognized by a main stream
publication so that it can get wide circulation.  I predict that once
the DOE report is published, editors will be looking for such
information.  Your effort will be available "just in time".

Ed

Steve Krivit wrote:

> The www.newenergytimes.com website has been updated
>
> Steven Krivit
> Editor and Webmaster
> Los Angeles, California, USA

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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:00:19 -0500
Subject: DoE to review  LENR/CF
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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I received this message from Steve Krivit and Nadine Winocur, which I am
sure is OK to share on this and other forums:

*********************
To the cold fusion community:

If you have not heard it already, we have some good news to share:

Jacqueline Johnson, a media spokesperson with the U.S.Dept. of Energy
confirmed to us yesterday that the D.O.E. has committed to a new review of
cold fusion.  The effort was initiated by a letter from Peter Hagelstein on
Sept. 12, 2003 to Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham, and a follow-up
meeting on November 6, 2003 with Peter, Mike McKubre and Dave Nagel at the
D.O.E..  

Ms. Johnson was unable to offer a timetable but suggested that one may be
available within a few weeks.   Three other journalist have also confirmed
this information.   One is rumored to be reporting it in a major U.S.
newspaper tomorrow, the other two journalists told us that they expect their
stories to print within 7-12 days.

Congratulations to all of you for your efforts over the last 15 years to
bring cold fusion back into the public eye and for your contributions to
scientific progress, and a better world.  We know that a funding fight will
ensue, but we hope that between the stronger data that exists, and more
organized and directed media attention, cold fusion research will thrive.


Sincerely,
Steve and Nadine


Steven Krivit 
Nadine Winocur
Los Angeles, California, USA
www.newenergytimes.com <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>
Phone: (310) 721-5919
Fax: (310) 470-8190
**************************


Indeed, I have been aware of this impending review for about a month now and
have been in discussion with some of the journalists involved. A position
paper about this from the New Energy Foundation will appear in the next few
days.

Sincerely,


Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation)
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
        www.infinite-energy.com    editor infinite-energy.com
        603-485-4700  Fx: 603-485-4710

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 13:21:38 2004
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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:21:21 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: DoE to review  LENR/CF
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Eugene F. Mallove writes:

 > If you have not heard it already, we have some good news to share:
 >
 > Jacqueline Johnson, a media spokesperson with the U.S.Dept. of Energy
 > confirmed to us yesterday that the D.O.E. has committed to a new review of
 > cold fusion.

I offer a guarded and hesitant congratulations to all. I hope this is good 
news, but I fear it may be the case of "be careful what you wish for." I 
have heard that the enemies of cold fusion are enthusiastic about this 
review because they plan to use it as a second opportunity to denigrate 
cold fusion and bury it. They greatly outnumber us, and they have much more 
political influence, especially within the DOE. It may be a grave mistake 
to launch a review at the organization in the epicenter of their political 
power. This is like asking the foxes to review hen-house homeland security 
measures.

This report is scheduled to be completed after the election, for obvious 
reasons.


 > We know that a funding fight will
 > ensue . . .

I doubt it! Even in the best of circumstances it will not go that far at 
the DoE. The best we can hope for is a tepid, mealy-mouthed endorsement of 
possible future funding at some unspecified government agency. The worst 
would be a repeat of the ERAB report -- and frankly, that is what I expect 
to see.

Not only is cold fusion impossibly controversial, but you must remember 
that the government is now in the worst financial crisis it has been in 
since the Civil War, with outlandish and unsustainable deficits. There will 
be no new funding for any program for the foreseeable future, until this 
crisis is resolved. And despite the crisis, entrenched, corrupt programs 
such as agricultural price supports, hot fusion, and coal and oil subsidies 
have not been cut; they have been vastly increased. (Indeed, that is one of 
the causes of the runaway deficits.) There is not the slightest chance the 
hot fusion or oil lobbyists will allow $1 million, or $1 thousand of their 
funding to be diverted to cold fusion. Anything who thinks otherwise knows 
nothing about politics. Hot fusion funding will continue to monopolize 
every available dollar until the day that all the newspapers magazines and 
scientific journals features headline articles confirming that cold fusion 
is real. This is an all or nothing fight. They will not break or surrender 
one inch of ground until they are destroyed. I base that assessment on the 
history of similar funding battles in government and industry, in fields 
such as transportation, computing, telecommunications and energy.

Cold fusion will only be funded by private sources of money. It is far too 
controversial for a mainstream organization such as the DoE or the APS.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 14:45:32 2004
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From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: Lot of filaments in Sprit sol73 microscopic images
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:47:28 +0200
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Note: I had posted previous mail while only 7 pictures were available, now 30.
In new pictures of dig sand I located some filaments too. As the soil was
heavily disturbed while digging, mineral origin hypothesis of filaments can be
ruled out because they had to be broken to small pieces, so they could be better
organic or metallic. One filament I saw is in dark color opposed most of them
appearing in light color.

Overall these microscopic images gives lot of new clues, like the origin of
light colored crust covering the soil, which could be a frost or salt buildup
when the wet salted soil is dried, leaving salt or other dissolved mineral on
the surface. It also appear the soil is still wet inside regarding the dark
color and the small particles stick on gravel. It is also very interesting to
find rounded gravel, similar to sea shore gravel. One can ask now this gravel
took place in wind deposed drift. Maybe not simply wind deposited.

Although microscopic images are not stereoscopic, synchronizing my eyes each
ones to different picture to same scene
gives better resolution and recognizing capability to my brain, despite 3D
visuality is absent. This works even when one of the picture is fuzzy! Brain
does very good image processing indeed.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 18 March 2004 21:16
Subject: Lot of filaments in Sprit sol73 microscopic images


> See full size images at pages
> http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/spirit_m073.html
> It appears lot of long and short thin filaments embedded in the texture.
Texture
> in turn appears a solidified
> material impacted by rain drops of something. Solidified material should be
thin
> enough to protect
> profile of the filaments.
>
>
> Note that these filaments are in smooth shapes, not look like as cracks.
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 14:59:30 2004
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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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Subject: Re: German scientists prove information travels faster than light to view fut...
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:58:42 -0600
Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc.
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On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 01:46:41 EST, you wrote:

>In a message dated 3/17/2004 1:22:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
>Lucky artsound.com writes:
>The problem with time. Everything in the universe is a phase and phases 
>switch. Hence also time is a phase. I think it is a mistake to think of time only 
>from our below speed of light aspect of our physical body. As a human I am body 
>and spirit. In effect the direction of time works the other way around 
>(otherway phase direction) when the speed is higher then that of light. If we call 
>the direction of our physical senses from past to future, then when the energy 
>oscilates a the speed higher than that of light the time direction is the 
>otherway around, hence from future to the past. This is why vision and spiritual 
>things work from the future to the past in the form of intuition and sometimes 
>prophecy. I wouldn't call this time travel though.
>Furthermore I assume that everything in the universe is circular hence also 
>the directions of time in the physical and non physical world might switch at 
>some stage. A period like that I like to call Aeon. I don't think this is time 
>travel, although it might be that at the point in phaseswitch where the body's 
>and spirit;s time experience converge it might be possible to travel to 
>another convergion point. Alas, this is all difficult matter and John Dee was 
>sentenced to death by the Jesuit Cardinal Bellardin, after he had stripped him of 
>all information regarding this though....

---
That's all just opinion.

 
-- 
John Fields


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 15:05:21 2004
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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:11:02 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hematite!
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At 7:11 PM 3/18/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>"Hematite as a major compositional phase in the spherules supports
>their formation via precipitation, rather than as impact-related fallout,"
>Garvin said.
>
>Impact-related fallout hypothesis is so poor that, I suspect people that
>introduce this hypothesis  had never examined various images.
>
>Formation via precipitation is also poor because, many BB's are grown
>or developed on the upper edges of rocks, many still in their odd places,
>and appears they are still developing because their fragile
>attachments to rocks can not survive millions of years (if the hypothesis
>require they were developed long time ago, when water was abundant).
>
>Pictures also suggest that they are developed and grew by opposing to
>the gravity, in absence of carrying medium, unless they are lighter than a
>volatile medium which are not currently present there. ( See sol 49 photos)
>
>BB's standing on rock by attachment appears having a preferred direction
>coinciding to wind direction, also their positions.
>
>I dont know how the concluded to hematite, but I think this would be only valid
>by
>pre-assumption of inorganic origin.


Yes, indeed, living matter is apparently NOT one of the NASA working
hypotheses.  Apparently the they are not taking into account their own
findings that a large part of Mars has water or ice just under the surface.
See:

<http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/28may%5Fmarsice.htm>

It is unfathomable to me that despite the above findings, the geologists
seem unable to identify the ice they are churning up on the surface, or to
realize that it is a lifeform that is making the crust which traps the
water underground.

Further, the scientists involved in the pronouncements are geologists.
They seem to not have enough scientific integrity and conservatism to
permit a team with proper credentials, i.e. exobilogists or even
biologists, to deliver or even make the determinations that are necessary.
It would appear that, as geologists, the only thing on their brains are
rocks.  They apparently can not conceive of the subject minerals being in
solution or gel form, or distributed in a fibrous matrix, or being part of
a living thing.  I wonder how they would explain the fact that the surface
features of some lichen has exactly the same surface features as seen on
Mars "berries".  See:

<http://www.lichen.com/bigpix/Dbaeomyces.html>

It seems like a safe bet that in general the instruments being applied were
calibrated on terrestrial rocks, and certainly NOT very likely on
terrestial lifeforms having a high sulfer content.


At 9:16 PM 3/18/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>See full size images at pages
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/spirit_m073.html
>It appears lot of long and short thin filaments embedded in the texture.
>Texture
>in turn appears a solidified
>material impacted by rain drops of something. Solidified material should
>be thin
>enough to protect
>profile of the filaments.
>
>
>Note that these filaments are in smooth shapes, not look like as cracks.


Notice that where Spirit disrupted the surface it separated out a bunch
of miniature potato-like objects which more or less floated (via stirring
disruption) to the top of the soil in the ditch:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/073/2M132842904EFF2000P2977M
2M1.HTML>

These can be seen growing in the crustose lichen at the surface of the
sand dune, more or less in cross-section  at:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/073/2M132842196EFF2000P2977M
2M1.HTML>

and in similar Sol 73 photos.  Further, it appears there is a fairly large
round ball under the surface right at the corner of the cut of the trench,
under the long shadow from Spirit.

It appears to me that the surface of the sand is covered with a crustose
lichen similar to various terrestrial lichen, and to the ANderson lichen
seen earlier near Spirit's linding site.  The fruiting bodies in this case
are not the perithecium like those seen by Opportunity, but rather are
apothecium or asci which grow down in the hymenium, and not on stalks.

It is interresting that some of the small surface features include many
branching tendrils like the veins of small leaves.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: German scientists prove information travels faster than light to view future!
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:51:00 -0600
Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc.
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On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:17:03 -0500, you wrote:

>On Wednesday 17 March 2004 12:34, John Fields wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:31:44 EST, you wrote:
>> >Scalar Waves written by Konstantin Meyl shows that the transmission of
>> >information at speeds faster than light with photons, microwaves, and
>> > laser beams has been proven at the University of Berkley, Cologne
>> > Germany, and Vienna.  When information travels faster than light it is
>> > received before it is sent out.
>>
>> ---
>> No, it isn't.  It would be merely be received in less time than it would
>> take if it was being transmitted conventionally.
>> ---
>>
>> >If we send information to ourselves by means of satellites at faster than
>> >light speeds, we can see the information before we send it on our
>> > receivers, which means we can look into the future, once we get our
>> > communications networks set up properly.
>>
>> ---
>> No it doesn't.  All it means is we would receive the information more
>> quickly than if it were transmitted by conventional means.
>> ---
>>
>> >The speed of energy or scalar waves can travel faster than the
>> >speed of light by means of Tesla scalar waves also.
>>
>> ---
>> Perhaps, put I don't think a transmitter-receiver pair has yet been
>> built which proves that superluminal communications has been achieved.
>
>
>May be so, but let us allow him to prove otherwise;  and/or anyone else while
>we are at it. 

---
I don't know where you managed to come up with the idea that I was
attemptying to keep him from proving that what he says is true.  On the
contrary, all my last line says is that I don't believe it's happened
yet, which should be an invitation to prove me wrong.
--- 

>After all, another forgotten group of 'professional skeptics' 
>from another age, the 1940's and before, postulated that man would 
>never conquer the sound barrier.  They said we would shake ourselves
>apart.   After the goal was reached, all the voices of fashionable 
>skepticism faded into the woodwork and into the night never to be seen
>or heard from again.  It was no longer possible to keep ones job or
>grant or take another's away from them by spouting dogma.  Quite the
>opposite as the cold light of new truth drove the Phillistines out of at
>least THAT temple.

---
There have always been, there are now, and there always will be skeptics
and debunkers, who's proclivities toward disbelief should add fuel to
the fire of those who profess to believe in the miraculous to come up
with proof instead of merely rhetoric.
---

>If we are to avoid a new dark age of feudalism and exploitation of man  by 
>man, we will need these people that dare to think 'out of the box' as Marc
>Millis put it while he was in charge of the late 'breakthrough physics'
>group.  Otherwise we are fated to be thrown back on ourselves and into
>a world of limited resource and no hope.  The earth is a big place, but
>we are a big race and outgrowing our womb.  We need to be able to
>reach out.   First to our local system for more resources and energy,
>then to other local star systems.  Out there are virtually limitless
>resources, and we are only now beginning to attain the enabling technologies
>to be able to exploit them.  Out there also are isolated spaces in which
>to test ideas and technologies that may be hazardous on our  home world.
>
>Granted new ideas are messy.  And dangerous on occasion!   But human
>progress is charted on an eneven course of  odd milestones.  The simple
>invention of a new process for waterproof cement for mortar to proof stone
>walls against hydraulic pressure enabled the city to New York to become
>the metropolis it is today.  The waterproof walls enabled canal locks
>on the Erie Canal to be built economically from local materials.  This led
>to an explosion of commerce that made New York City its hub.  Another such
>new idea is the space elevator.  Just think of what a long fiber nanotube 
>will enable if an when it can lower delivered pound of cargo to high earth
>orbit or interplanetary transit....from 10,000 dollars a pound to 10 dollars
>a pound.  Or think of what a MITEE engine of an output similar to a Russian
>Proton rocket could do to transform the Russian Buran design LEO shuttle
>into a true space shuttle with interplanetary capabilities in a single stage.

---
Please, spare me the platitudes and wishful thinking. 
---

>It WILL be done.  If not by us, then by the Chinese.  Who then will truly be
>more fit to lead the human race to greatness.

---
That's a racist remark if I ever heard one.  Why would it matter who the
leaders were?

-- 
John Fields


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 18 15:38:54 2004
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At 4:21 PM 3/18/4, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Not only is cold fusion impossibly controversial, but you must remember
>that the government is now in the worst financial crisis it has been in
>since the Civil War, with outlandish and unsustainable deficits. There will
>be no new funding for any program for the foreseeable future, until this
>crisis is resolved. And despite the crisis, entrenched, corrupt programs
>such as agricultural price supports, hot fusion, and coal and oil subsidies
>have not been cut; they have been vastly increased. (Indeed, that is one of
>the causes of the runaway deficits.) There is not the slightest chance the
>hot fusion or oil lobbyists will allow $1 million, or $1 thousand of their
>funding to be diverted to cold fusion. Anything who thinks otherwise knows
>nothing about politics. Hot fusion funding will continue to monopolize
>every available dollar until the day that all the newspapers magazines and
>scientific journals features headline articles confirming that cold fusion
>is real. This is an all or nothing fight. They will not break or surrender
>one inch of ground until they are destroyed. I base that assessment on the
>history of similar funding battles in government and industry, in fields
>such as transportation, computing, telecommunications and energy.


It is ironic that the above is probably true, especially since there
significant adverse yet powerful interests other than the above also
involved.

It is also ironic that our national defense and economy is exactly what is
at stake at stake here.  I am certainly not saying anything new here when I
say a source of cheap energy on the horizon should do a lot for us both
militarily and economically.


>
>Cold fusion will only be funded by private sources of money. It is far too
>controversial for a mainstream organization such as the DoE or the APS.
>
>- Jed


This is why I liked the idea of an independent permanent fund for renewable
energy development.  A legacy fund.  It was a great idea.  At lot better
than what ever is second best.  If anyone can not remember it I will be
glad to post it again.  Maybe some politician will adopt it as his own,
though I guess only Kerry and Bush are likely to be the only ones who could
do so effectively, so it is not likely to happen.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Asteroid flyby tonight
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You have to read this article to believ sombody could actually say these
things:

<http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/03/18/asteroid.ap/index.html>.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3520636.stm

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/=
nature/3520636.stm<BR>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 19 02:57:49 2004
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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:55:41 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 02:50 pm 18-03-04 -0900, you wrote:
>You have to read this article to believe somebody could actually say these
>things:
>
><http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/03/18/asteroid.ap/index.html>.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          


Seemed OK to me. I am obviously missing something.  :-)
Half a brain, perhaps.  <g>

Could you elucidate please Horace?

By the way, did that package of papers ever arise
in the frozen north.

Cheers

Frank Grimer



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 19 05:35:58 2004
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This came in today.  ICCMNS??

Terry

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	ICCF11
Date: 	Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:55:52 +0100
From: 	Jean-Paul Biberian <biberian crmcn.univ-mrs.fr>
To: 	biberian crmcn.univ-mrs.fr



Dear colleague,

It is my pleasure to announce you that ICCF11, the 11th International 
Conference on Consensed Matter Nuclear Science will he held in 
Marseilles, France from October 31 till November 5, 2004.

Registrations are open at :

www.iccf11.org

Some highlights of the conference:

In addition to the usual format of this type of conferences we will have:

1- An open session at the University of Marseilles, with demonstrations
2- A special evening session where we will discuss with economists, 
philosophers, journalists and scientists, the consequences of the 
application of "Cold Fusion" in our day to day life, but also the 
geopolitical  and economical changes that might occur.
3- The week long meeting will end with a press conference.

I hope to see you in Marseilles

Jean Paul Biberian
Chairman

PS: note my new email address (only slightly different): 
biberian crmcn.univ-mrs.fr

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 19 08:10:16 2004
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Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 1:55 AM 3/19/4, Grimer wrote:

>><http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/03/18/asteroid.ap/index.html>.

>Could you elucidate please Horace?

Sure.  The article stated:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"The important thing is not that it's happening, but that we detected
it," Chesley said.  ...

Astronomers have not ruled out that the asteroid and our planet could
meet again sometime in the future. If the two were to collide, the
asteroid likely would disintegrate in the atmosphere, Chesley said.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A 100 ft diameter meter carries a big punch, and the angle of incidence may
not be large for a given meteor impact.  A 100 ft diameter meteor carries a
big punch.  From the web page below we see that 60 m diameter meteor = 10
megatons TNT just from earth's gravity:

<http://www.hartrao.ac.za/other/tswaing/tswaing.html>

A 100 ft diameter meteor will expend about 1.2 megatons TNT, and if the
angle of incidence is high it really doesn't really matter if that energy
is in the atmosphere or in the ground.  However, based on the fact that
fairly small meteors can make it to earth, it seems to me a 100 ft diamter
meteor should have no trouble.

The other thing that strikes me as important is the cavalier attitude
regarding the fact that the asteroid was only detected a day before
potential impact.  It is not important that the asteroid was detected, what
is important is that most aren't and even when they are they are detected
too late to do anything about it regarding the civilian population.  An
event like this happening every two years or so is a serious thing.  If
scientists take it lightly, how can we expect the public to take the long
term action that is needed to protect ourselves?


>
>By the way, did that package of papers ever arise
>in the frozen north.


Yes they did, thanks.  I read the papers but didn't see much new over what
was posted on the web or vortex.  I did want to look into it further, as
structural engineering is outside my little area of knowledge, but looking
into it has slid down my list of priorities for now.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 19 08:12:01 2004
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:22:05 -0500
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On Friday 19 March 2004 05:55, Grimer wrote:
> At 02:50 pm 18-03-04 -0900, you wrote:
> >You have to read this article to believe somebody could actually say these
> >things:
> >
> ><http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/03/18/asteroid.ap/index.html>.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Horace Heffner
>
> Seemed OK to me. I am obviously missing something.  :-)
> Half a brain, perhaps.  <g>
>
> Could you elucidate please Horace?
>
> By the way, did that package of papers ever arise
> in the frozen north.
>
> Cheers
>
> Frank Grimer

   Part of the above article, the feely goody be comfy Alfred E. Newman
'what me worry' part says as follows:
  
            ..."  it immediately became clear it would pass very close by the 
          Earth," Chesley said.  
              Astronomers have not ruled out that the asteroid and our planet 
          could meet again sometime in the future. If the two were to collide, 
          the asteroid likely would disintegrate in the atmosphere, Chesley said."

The sad thing is that much of the public will believe this arrant nonsense merely
because CNN spouted it on its web page for one and possibly on its stations as
well.  If this thing comes back, few will remember what CNN said except folks
like us.   While they are counting the dead, they will probably only mutter things
like 'it was God's will'.
WE NEED A BETTER SPACE SHUTTLE, AND NOT A CHEMICALLY POWERED
ARTILLERY SHELL;   BUT ONE THAT CAN MANEUVER, USES NUCLEAR OR
MIRROR FUSION/NUCLEAR POWER, CAN TAKE OFF IN A SINGLE STAGE,
AND CAN MANEUVER ON ITS OWN AND CARRY WEAPONS TO DEFLECT
FUTURE SPACE ROCKS!!!

	Standing Bear

ps....maybe the Chinese will build one with the profits from the sale of Nike tennis
sneakers.   That'll get Uncle Sam movin' !!

Standing Bear



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Standing Bear wrote:

>ps....maybe the Chinese will build one with the profits from the sale of Nike tennis
>sneakers. 
>

Right now, they're buying steel.  We've seen the price jump 8% due to 
their massive purchases.

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From: "Vince Cockeram" <vcockeram cox.net>
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Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight


> . . . . ."If the two were to collide, the
> asteroid likely would disintegrate in the atmosphere, 

Horace, I caught this rediculous statement too.
Couple of questions.
What would a 100 ft. diameter (assume basalt) rock mass?
How fast is this bugger going with respect to the earth.
F=MA    :)

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Space based radar project
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Finding and cataloging all earth orbit crossing asteroids and comets is a
difficult to impossible task - impossible because some may come from the
Ort cloud or beyond and thus not have any possibility of being observed for
a periods of a century or more, much less cataloged.  If an object
approaches from out that far it likely has not been around for decades, so
is very unlikely to have been cataloged.

The only solution that has a chance of providing a really high quality
warning system then it seems lies in building a space based radar system.
Such a radar system would have to be very high powered, and would have to
have a multi-directional receiver for long range and an omni-directional
receiver for short range.  It would have to operate 24 hours a day in order
to receive bounce signals.  It would probably require a comparatively low
noise environment in its bandwidth.

The subject radar should generate a continuous signal which is continually
tagged with the time and celestial coordinates at which the beam is aimed.
In that manner, when a return signal is received, it is possible to tell
the coordinates of and distance to the object at the time of the signal
bounce from the object.  In addition, through doppler analysis, it might be
possible to determine at least one component of the velocity as well.  It
likely would take multiple radar platforms with significantly differing
orbits in order to achieve full coverage.

Using such an asteroid radar system, it should be possible to locate and
catalog all nearby earth orbit crossing objects of significant size, and
also to locate dangerous objects incoming from long range in sufficient
time to either employ an asteroid deflecting system (if such is actually
built) or to make the best possible arrangements for earth populations.

Such a radar base might be manned, but it seems that NASA has recently both
demonstrated the great potential of and the need for robotic maintenance
capabilites.  Robots are clearly the main future of space exploration.
Further, space platforms of the future should be designed in a modular
fashion so as to permit robotic maintenance.   If Hubble were so designed,
for example, it could now be robot maintained, and its future would not be
in jeapardy.

Robots go on one way trips. They do not require re-entry vehicles, crew
compartments, air, water, or waste removal.  The only thing missing is
sufficient robotic technology, but that is coming fast.  It seems to me a
national mission with much more return for the dollar, both to the space
program, military, and the economy, than manned missions to the moon and
Mars would be a mission on the order of the 60's space program to develop
robotics and nano-technology.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:51:02 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 07:15 am 19-03-04 -0900, you wrote:
>At 1:55 AM 3/19/4, Grimer wrote:
>
>>><http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/03/18/asteroid.ap/index.html>.
>
>>Could you elucidate please Horace?
>
>Sure.  The article stated:
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>"The important thing is not that it's happening, but that we detected
>it," Chesley said.  ...
>
>Astronomers have not ruled out that the asteroid and our planet could
>meet again sometime in the future. If the two were to collide, the
>asteroid likely would disintegrate in the atmosphere, Chesley said.
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>A 100 ft diameter meter  ... 

[soto voce] voltmeter or ammeter?   ;-) (only kidding)

.....carries a big punch, and the angle of incidence may
>not be large for a given meteor impact.  A 100 ft diameter meteor carries a
>big punch.  From the web page below we see that 60 m diameter meteor = 10
>megatons TNT just from earth's gravity:
>
><http://www.hartrao.ac.za/other/tswaing/tswaing.html>
>
>A 100 ft diameter meteor will expend about 1.2 megatons TNT, and if the
>angle of incidence is high it really doesn't really matter if that energy
>is in the atmosphere or in the ground.  However, based on the fact that
>fairly small meteors can make it to earth, it seems to me a 100 ft diamter
>meteor should have no trouble.
>
>The other thing that strikes me as important is the cavalier attitude
>regarding the fact that the asteroid was only detected a day before
>potential impact.  It is not important that the asteroid was detected, what
>is important is that most aren't and even when they are they are detected
>too late to do anything about it regarding the civilian population.  An
>event like this happening every two years or so is a serious thing.  If
>scientists take it lightly, how can we expect the public to take the long
>term action that is needed to protect ourselves?



Thanks very much. 
Your explanation and criticism seem very reasonable to me.
Forgive the leg-pull. I couldn't resist it.  :-)


Frank

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 10:12 AM 3/19/4, Vince Cockeram wrote:

>Horace, I caught this rediculous statement too.
>Couple of questions.
>What would a 100 ft. diameter (assume basalt) rock mass?
>How fast is this bugger going with respect to the earth.
>F=MA    :)


Well I trusted the calculations at the bottom of the web page at:

<http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/03/18/asteroid.ap/index.html>

However, since you mentioned it I tried a computation from scratch as follows.

You can conservatively assume an ateroid  will impact the earth at around
earth escape velocity.  Anything higher simply means larger energy upon
impact (assuming of course is not in earth orbit and the earth is chasing
it.)  Escape velocity for earth is 11.18 km/s.  Density of rock Rho can be
assumed to be about 3 times water or 3 g/cm^3 = 3000 kg/m^3.   The radius
of the object is (100 ft/2) = 15.24 m.  The mass of the object m = rho
(4/3) Pi (r)^3 = (4/3) * 3.14 * (3000 kg/m^3) * (1/(15.24 m))^3 = 4.45x10^7
kg.  The energy is E = (1/2) m v^2 = (1/2)(4.45x10^7 kg)(11.18 km/s)^2 =
2.78x10^15 J.  A kiloton of TNT = 4.184 x 10^12 J.  The energy is thus
(2.78x10^15 J)/(4.184 x 10^12 J/kT) = 665 kilotons TNT.  A little less than
you get by scaling the guestimate provided on the above web page.  Of
course if you assume just a bit more velocity than escape velocity you get
right back up to about 1 megaton TNT. It's in that ballpark for sure.  If
you happen to be in the impact area I doubt the difference will be
significant!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew bobpark.org>
 To: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
 Date: 3/19/2004 1:59:16 PM
 Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, March 19, 2004

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 19 Mar 04   Washington, DC 

 1. HUBBLE: A DISASTER DELAYED ITS BIRTH AND MAY HASTEN ITS DEATH.
 Adm. Gehman, chair of the Columbia Investigation Board described
 a mission to Hubble as "slightly more risky" than to the ISS. But
 in Sunday's NY Times, NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe reaffirmed
 his decision to let Hubble die rather than risk a shuttle repair
 mission.  It's difficult to find anyone who thinks O'Keefe, who
 is neither scientist nor astronaut, should be the one making that
 decision, and Sen. Mikulski (D-MD) warned O'Keefe not to prejudge
 the outcome of a National Academy of Sciences study of the issue.
 The irony is that NASA insisted that Hubble be designed to be
 launched and serviced by the shuttle.  The launch was delayed for
 three years by the Challenger disaster and the Columbia disaster
 now threatens to accelerate its demise by three years.
 2. MISSILE DEFENSE: UNITED STATES WINS CLOSE GAME AT THE BUZZER.
 You can sleep better now; Tuesday, March 16, a computer-simulated
 missile attack by a country that looked a lot like North Korea
 was repelled without a single American city being hit.  I called
 Puff Panegyric in the Missile Defense Agency press office to
 offer my congratulations. "Yes, we're feeling pretty good about
 it," Puff rasped, his voice still a little hoarse from cheering.
 "The goal now is to complete initial deployment of a rudimentary
 defense by 2 November."  I smelled a story.  "Golly Puff, is that
 when intelligence estimates say North Korea will have a working
 missile and a nuclear warhead?"  "That's classified," he said. 

 3. POLYGRAPH: IS TELLING THE TRUTH PUBLICLY AS BAD AS LYING? 
 About a year ago the National Academy of Sciences completed a
 review of scientific evidence on the polygraph, "The Polygraph
 and Lie Detection."  It concluded that the use of polygraph tests
 for DOE employee security screening was unacceptable because of
 the high rate of false positives.  DOE took the position that a
 lot of false positives must mean the test is very sensitive, and
 simply reissued its old polygraph policies without change. 
 http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn041803.cfm  A nuclear scientist at
 Sandia National Laboratories, Alan Zelicoff, thought that was
 pretty dumb, which it was, and he said so publicly.  Sandia took
 disciplinary action, and Zelicoff says he was forced to resign.  


 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.  
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
 You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki ix.netcom.com
 To unsubscribe send a blank email to
leave-whatsnew-47101V lists.apsmsgs.org
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 19 18:34:59 2004
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Subject: Micro filaments on Mars
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You may recall the first filament "cat hair" was spotted on Opportunity photo.
If one examine carefully, less evident filaments can be seen on most of
microscopic photos, specially on sandy places. They are not simply cracks on
sand or aligned grains but real things passing over other materials.

These filaments possibly not developed there, but carried by wind from long
distances and spreading everywhere, I think.

I also spotted a different kind of "filament" which look like better to small
thin worms on photos in page
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m039.html,
picture 1M131648609EFF0544P2951M2M1.JPG and similar ones.

Maybe these ones are responsible to open small holes on "potatoes" and on BB's
:)

Attached photo is very compressed, see the original picture.

Regards,

hamdi ucar



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 20 11:22:22 2004
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:28:04 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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Let me try that again with fewer typos and cutting/pasting of URL problems.
Sorry!

At 10:12 AM 3/19/4, Vince Cockeram wrote:

>Horace, I caught this rediculous statement too.
>Couple of questions.
>What would a 100 ft. diameter (assume basalt) rock mass?
>How fast is this bugger going with respect to the earth.
>F=MA    :)


Well I trusted the calculations at the bottom of the web page at:

<http://www.hartrao.ac.za/other/tswaing/tswaing.html>

However, since you mentioned it, I tried a computation from scratch as follows.

You can conservatively assume an asteroid will impact the earth at around
earth escape velocity.  Anything higher simply means larger energy upon
impact (assuming of course it is not in earth orbit and the earth is
chasing it.)  Escape velocity for earth is 11.18 km/s.  Density of rock Rho
can be assumed to be about 3 times water or 3 g/cm^3 = 3000 kg/m^3.   The
radius of the object is (100 ft/2) = 15.24 m.  The mass of the object m =
rho (4/3) Pi (r)^3 = (4/3) * 3.14 * (3000 kg/m^3) * (15.24 m)^3 = 4.45x10^7
kg.  The energy is E = (1/2) m v^2 = (1/2)(4.45x10^7 kg)(11.18 km/s)^2 =
2.78x10^15 J.  A kiloton of TNT = 4.184 x 10^12 J.  The energy is thus
(2.78x10^15 J)/(4.184 x 10^12 J/kT) = 665 kilotons TNT, a little less than
you get by scaling the guestimate provided on the above web page.  Of
course if you assume just a bit more velocity than escape velocity you get
right back up to about 1 megaton TNT. It's in that ballpark for sure.  If
you happen to be in the impact area I doubt the difference will be
significant!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 20 11:52:30 2004
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Asteroid flyby tonight
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:17:28 -0500
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Hey,

Three thoughts come to mind.

1) There was a time when this was a regular occurance on the planet.
Now, fortunately, that time has passed. The likelyhood of another
large impact increases in the short term as time goes on, but decreases
in the long term as we take more hits. Thankfully, we're long
past the real hazard period back when the planets were forming.

2) It's common knowledge that the Soviet scalar weaponry program
psychically projected a nuclear explosion over Tunguska with
the help of Albert Einstein and Nikola Tesla (grin). But just bear
with me for a moment of wild speculation; what if it was a
medium sized meteor strike instead? Being at ground zero
would have hurt, but the resulting damage was nowhere close
to apocalyptic. If we're remarkably unlucky a populated
area would get it, but much more likely it would land
in the middle of nowhere. Anyway, it's a good case study
to understand what one of these events would probably look like.

3) It will be an interesting side effect of cheap access to space,
that nuclear weapon technology will be largely supplanted by
the space equivalent of Dennis the Menaces slingshot. For it's
a trivial task to find a nice size rock and nudge it
towards the infidel great satan/terrorist nation of your choice.
Given our history, I expect the first major meteor
strike of the modern era will be artificial.

Toodles,

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 2:28 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight


Let me try that again with fewer typos and cutting/pasting of URL problems.
Sorry!

At 10:12 AM 3/19/4, Vince Cockeram wrote:

>Horace, I caught this rediculous statement too.
>Couple of questions.
>What would a 100 ft. diameter (assume basalt) rock mass?
>How fast is this bugger going with respect to the earth.
>F=MA    :)


Well I trusted the calculations at the bottom of the web page at:

<http://www.hartrao.ac.za/other/tswaing/tswaing.html>

However, since you mentioned it, I tried a computation from scratch as
follows.

You can conservatively assume an asteroid will impact the earth at around
earth escape velocity.  Anything higher simply means larger energy upon
impact (assuming of course it is not in earth orbit and the earth is
chasing it.)  Escape velocity for earth is 11.18 km/s.  Density of rock Rho
can be assumed to be about 3 times water or 3 g/cm^3 = 3000 kg/m^3.   The
radius of the object is (100 ft/2) = 15.24 m.  The mass of the object m =
rho (4/3) Pi (r)^3 = (4/3) * 3.14 * (3000 kg/m^3) * (15.24 m)^3 = 4.45x10^7
kg.  The energy is E = (1/2) m v^2 = (1/2)(4.45x10^7 kg)(11.18 km/s)^2 =
2.78x10^15 J.  A kiloton of TNT = 4.184 x 10^12 J.  The energy is thus
(2.78x10^15 J)/(4.184 x 10^12 J/kT) = 665 kilotons TNT, a little less than
you get by scaling the guestimate provided on the above web page.  Of
course if you assume just a bit more velocity than escape velocity you get
right back up to about 1 megaton TNT. It's in that ballpark for sure.  If
you happen to be in the impact area I doubt the difference will be
significant!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 20 14:54:57 2004
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:54:38 EST
Subject: I planing on going to Weppons Lab this Tuesday for a lecture
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--part1_154.309ae25b.2d8e25ae_boundary
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I plan to hand out this letter when I get there.

Frank Znidarsic 


                                Frank Znidarsic
                                    481 Boyer St.
                                    Johnstown PA
                                            15906
                                   fznidarsic aol.com

Fellow researcher
Greetings;

I have studied several zero point processes.   I came to the conclusion that
these processes involve "the path of the quantum transition."  The cold 
fusion
process involves 50 nanometer sized clusters.  These clusters are stimulated
thermally at a frequency of about 10 exp 14 hertz.   The gravitomagetic
experiments of Potkletnov involved a 1/3 of a meter superconducting disk. 
This disk was stimulated at 3 megahertz.  Sono-fusion involves nanometer
sized clusters.  These clusters are stimulated at visible frequencies.  The
product of the cluster size and the stimulation frequency is one megahertz-
meter.  My theorem states,  "The nuclear, gravitational, and electromagnetic
motion constants converge in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a
dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter."  The convergence of the
motion constants allows quantum states to change.  Znidarsic's theorem
describes the path of the quantum transition. A detailed analysis of this
process from nuclear to macroscopic sizes may be found on my web page.

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html

Znidarsic's constant ( one megahertz-meter ) is associated with wavelength.
Planck's constant is associated with frequency.  Both constants describe the
quantum transition.  Znidarsic's constant in Planck's system of units 
describes
a spin one Boson.  Energy barriers are eliminated within the Bosonic state
due to the convergence of the motion constants.  This concept can be applied
to the design of technology.  This technology could directly control the
nuclear and the gravitational forces.   

I have several nuclear and gravitational processes that I would like to 
explore. 
I seek partners in this effort. 


--part1_154.309ae25b.2d8e25ae_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I plan to hand out this letter when=
 I get there.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
                                Frank Znidarsic<BR>
                                    481 Boyer St.<BR>
                                    Johnstown PA<BR>
                                        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 15906<BR>
                &nbsp;&nbsp;              &nbsp;&nbsp; fznidarsic aol.com<BR=
>
<BR>
Fellow researcher<BR>
Greetings;<BR>
<BR>
I have studied several zero point processes.&nbsp;&nbsp; I came to the concl=
usion that<BR>
these processes involve "the path of the quantum transition."&nbsp; The cold=
 fusion<BR>
process involves 50 nanometer sized clusters.&nbsp; These clusters are stimu=
lated<BR>
thermally at a frequency of about 10 exp 14 hertz.&nbsp;&nbsp; The gravitoma=
getic<BR>
experiments of Potkletnov involved a 1/3 of a meter superconducting disk. <B=
R>
This disk was stimulated at 3 megahertz.&nbsp; Sono-fusion involves nanomete=
r<BR>
sized clusters.&nbsp; These clusters are stimulated at visible frequencies.&=
nbsp; The<BR>
product of the cluster size and the stimulation frequency is one megahertz-<=
BR>
meter.&nbsp; My theorem states,&nbsp; "The nuclear, gravitational, and elect=
romagnetic<BR>
motion constants converge in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a<BR>
dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter."&nbsp; The convergence of the<=
BR>
motion constants allows quantum states to change.&nbsp; Znidarsic's theorem<=
BR>
describes the path of the quantum transition. A detailed analysis of this<BR=
>
process from nuclear to macroscopic sizes may be found on my web page.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Znidarsic's constant ( one megahertz-meter ) is associated with wavelength.<=
BR>
Planck's constant is associated with frequency.&nbsp; Both constants describ=
e the<BR>
quantum transition.&nbsp; Znidarsic's constant in Planck's system of units d=
escribes<BR>
a spin one Boson.&nbsp; Energy barriers are eliminated within the Bosonic st=
ate<BR>
due to the convergence of the motion constants.&nbsp; This concept can be ap=
plied<BR>
to the design of technology.&nbsp; This technology could directly control th=
e<BR>
nuclear and the gravitational forces.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I have several nuclear and gravitational processes that I would like to expl=
ore. <BR>
I seek partners in this effort. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_154.309ae25b.2d8e25ae_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 20 17:32:21 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 3:17 PM 3/20/4, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hey,
>
>Three thoughts come to mind.
>
>1) There was a time when this was a regular occurance on the planet.
>Now, fortunately, that time has passed. The likelyhood of another
>large impact increases in the short term as time goes on, but decreases
>in the long term as we take more hits. Thankfully, we're long
>past the real hazard period back when the planets were forming.


That may be so, but what happened shortly after the earth formed is not of
any significant concern. It is irrelevant.  It is the record of the last
1/8 of the earth's lifetime that is of concern.  There have been a lot of
big hits during that period, some associated roughly with mass extictions.
There is no solid evidence that I know of that the frequency of those major
hits has been diminishing with time.  On the other hand, I think it is
possible to formulate a reasonable argument that the impact rate is fairly
steady.

There is a lot of documentation (and controversy) on the web regarding
major extinctions.  However, one source of information that might be used
is:

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/exfiles/massintro.htm>

One might assume from the above information that there were significant
events around the time of the start of each of the folloing periods. (All
times and periods in millions of years.)

Cambrian  570 -500        70 *
Ordovician 500-430        70  *
Silurian   430-395           35
Devonian 395-345          50 *
Carboniferous 345-280  65
Permian 280-225           55 *
Triassic 225-195            30 *
Jurassic 195-136           56
Cretaceous 136-65        79 *
Tertiary 65-present       65

* general agreement on extiction

Tere are essentially 5 events in each of the last two 300 million year
periods (600-300, 300-present).

If we take only the periods in which it is generally agreed that major
extinction events occurred we get the following pattern:

Cambrian  570          70 *
Ordovician 500       105  *
Devonian 395          115 *
Permian 280             55 *
Triassic 225              86 *
Cretaceous 136        144*

In this perspective there are 3 events in each of the last 300 million year
periods.  I don't see any evidence of events disappearing with time.  On
the contrary, there appears to be a cyclic pattern to the event durations,
and, depending on how you look at it, it may be that we are somewhat
overdue for an event.

The risks of a major event in the near future might in fact be fairly
large.  We have even witnessed a major solar system collision event in our
lifetimes: Shoemaker-Levy.  Further, we seem to be having a lot of near
misses lately.  Something important about near-misses is that the bodies
involved sometime get their orbits affect so as to guarantee a direct hit
at a future time.  That is because a near miss is not all that different
from a sngle body exploding.  If an astronaut loses a wrence, for example,
letting it drift off into space, it very likely will be back at a later
time when the orbits mutually intersect.  Wen two bodies exchange momentum
there is a similarity to them each being part of the same mass at one time.
I am not sure, but it sounds familair that Shoemaker-Levey had a close
encounter with Jupiter prior to impacting on it.

BTW, I was aquainted with Gene Shoemaker.  He seemed to love parties.  He
came to a party at my house back in the late 60's, and brought a bottle of
Ever-Clear (or the equivalent.)  He liked to go to Australia periodically
where he would let off steam.  He enjoyed driving at high speed down the
middle of the road in the Outback, because it was deserted ... except for
the occasional tandem rig.


>
>2) It's common knowledge that the Soviet scalar weaponry program
>psychically projected a nuclear explosion over Tunguska with
>the help of Albert Einstein and Nikola Tesla (grin). But just bear
>with me for a moment of wild speculation; what if it was a
>medium sized meteor strike instead?


The Tunguska body was actually pretty small, and probably a comet, made
mostly of ice.  Tunguska was only about a 10 megatons TNT event.  Tunguska
does demonstrate, however, that the energy even from a non-impact air blast
can have a significant effect.


>Being at ground zero
>would have hurt, but the resulting damage was nowhere close
>to apocalyptic.


Well, yes, but it was just a small hit.  Medium hits could cause tidal
waves and major geologic events that could wipe out large segments of
earth's population, and major ecosystems as well.  If you look at the
Hawaiian islands, for example, and consider the drift of the continental
plates, you have to wonder if the Island chain evolved due to a magma "hot
spot" being punched into the earth's crust by a large meteor.  One also has
to ponder just how big on the Richter Scale earthquakes can get, and
whether a sufficiently large impact can trigger all the stressed major
fault zones on earth at one time.  Large hits could of course trigger
shrouding of the earth, global firestorms, and a major extiction.


>If we're remarkably unlucky a populated
>area would get it, but much more likely it would land
>in the middle of nowhere. Anyway, it's a good case study
>to understand what one of these events would probably look like.


Yes, but ony a fairly small event invoving a body that fully or mostly
ablated before impact.



Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Nemesis speculation
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It has been speculated at various times that a cloud or swarm of asteroids
and/or comets exists which tends to all return at once.  Such a swarm could
be created by various means.  One is that a heavy but fairly dark object, a
dark or small star might periodically traverse or might have at some time
traversed our neighborhood and disrupted the Ort cloud, sending numerous
bodies sunward at the same time.  Another hypothesis is that a planet
exploded.  In particular, the planet that exploded, or disintegrated due to
a major impact, might have existed between Mars and Jupiter, where the
asteroid belt now lies.  In that case debris might be all over the solar
system.  However, the more extremely energetic fragments would end up
having orbits with large eccentricities, and long orbital periods.  None of
this is new.  The swarm has been referred to as the Nemesis Swarm, or
Nemesis Cloud.

A Nemesis Swarm might explain some extinctions for which no major impact
area has been found.  That is because the extinction might have been caused
by many smaller impacts of which there is no obvious geologic record.  If
the cloud consists of many small comets, it might even explain Noah's flood
of 40 days and 40 nights, due to the rain of water which would result from
a cloud of small comets burning up in the atmosphere.  [Really not in
Kansas any more with that speculation!]

Of much more interest is the possibility that meteor impacts may play a
role in solar activity, and even sunspots.  The motion of the plasma of the
sun is governed by complex differential equations, in a manner somewhat
like terrestrial weather, yet that motion is far more complicated than the
weather due to the system not being merely mechanical, but also
electromagnetic, as well as far more energetic.  Therefore asteroid or
comet impact on the sun is a prime candidate to cause the Butterfly Effect,
the effect where a very small perturbation can result in large feedback
cycles that produce large events.  The effect is so named because it is
said the flap of a butterfly's wing can be the ultimate cause of a
hurricane.

It may be possible that a swarm of nearly simultaneous impact events on the
sun, even though not directly upon the earth, could affect the weather for
long periods, and even initiate or change the sunspot cycle frequency.
Such a solar event would produce limited geological evidence of its
existence, and even less of its cause, yet could in fact cause a major
extinction.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Typos, typos, typos!  Hopefully this is a bit more accurate table, at least
arithetic wise.

Cambrian  570          70 *
Ordovician 500       105  *
Devonian 395          115 *
Permian 280             55 *
Triassic 225              89 *
Cretaceous 136        136*

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: U.S. DoE Will Review 15-Years of  "Cold Fusion" Excess Heat and
	Nuclear Evidence
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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From: New Energy Foundation, Inc.   March 20, 2004
      (A Nonprofit, 501(c)(3) Corporation)
      www.infinite-energy.com


     U.S. Department of Energy Will Review 15-Years of
       "Cold Fusion" Excess Heat and Nuclear Evidence

Exciting news that has circulated for about a month in the low-energy
nuclear reactions field (LENR, a.k.a. "cold fusion") has now been confirmed.
The DoE has agreed to perform a review of the entire "cold fusion" (LENR)
question.  The U.S. Department of Energy has made a startling reversal of
its past refusal to evaluate with a fresh look the large body of
experimental evidence that now supports highly anomalous non-chemical
magnitude excess heat phenomena in some hydrogen systems, plus associated
nuclear anomalies.  The details of how the review will be conducted and when
it is to begin have not yet been released formally, but it is expected to be
completed by the end of 2004.

News of this major DoE reversal comes at a time of growing concern about
present and future energy resources, as well as debate over funding for
controlled thermonuclear fusion research, that is, "hot" fusion.  It also
comes at a time when much discussion of the "hydrogen economy" and fuel
cells fills the media. LENR research suggests, by contrast, that
orders-of-magnitude more powerful energy reserves are associated with
hydrogen than conventionally understood chemical energy models would allow.
This ought to please open-minded environmentalists and others concerned
about the future of the energy-environment problem and potential impacts on
global climate.

Just as after the the original announcements by chemists Drs. Martin
Fleischmann and B. Stanley Pons at the University of Utah on March 23, 1989
and by physicist Steven E. Jones at Brigham Young University subsequently,
this disclosure by the U.S. DoE is certain to prompt intense controversy and
expectation. The great difference this time, however, is that a much larger
body of excellent published experimental work now exists from researchers
around the globe, which the DoE should be compelled to examine in its
review.  By right, this review should have happened a decade ago ‹ but
better late than never. In our view, the body of supporting evidence for
large magnitude excess heat and nuclear products in "cold fusion" is so
solid at this time that it would essentially be intellectually impossible
for an objective DoE panel to come to other than a very positive conclusion
about the evidence and the prospect of technological applications. Of
course, it is quite possible that bureaucratic, unethical machinations will
again occur that will preclude such a reasonable outcome. We hope that does
not happen.

Another difference between now and 1989: there are now operational
experimental electrolytic and other excess energy cells in various
laboratories in the US and abroad; these are producing repeatable,
verifiable excess energy that cannot possibly be explained by ordinary
chemical reactions.  In some cases, for example, one watt of electrical
input power goes into a closed cell and an output power of 3 to 4 watts of
heat occurs for a prolonged time. Much more powerful cells have also been
operated.  There is evidence of helium-4 and helium-3 production, tritium
production, low-level neutron emissions, charged particles, light emission
spectral anomalies, the formation of unusual chemical compounds, and even
the transmutation of heavy elements in what seems to be a mix of fusion- and
fission-like reactions.  Laser radiation, ultrasonic activation, and
magnetic fields, among a variety of other stimuli, have been found to
enhance LENR reactions.  It appears that an entirely new realm of physics
and chemistry is suggested by the expanding body of experimental evidence.
There are almost certainly implications for biology and medicine too. Many
of the scientific papers from the LENR field and other historical materials
can now be freely downloaded from the websites: www.lenr-canr.org and from
www.infinite-energy.com.

The confirmation of the DoE review came first in a draft article by Physics
Today science journalist Toni Feder. This draft was circulated to several
LENR scientists, critics, and others who gave input to Ms. Feder. New Energy
Foundation provided input to Ms. Feder and welcomed receipt of the draft
article from her. The article is to appear in Physics Today's April 2004
issue, which should be out by the first week of April.  Physics Today is
published by the American Physical Society, an organization which
by-and-large has not been open to the study of LENR phenomena, though it has
allowed small sessions on the subject to be organized at its national
meetings.  In fact, the late LENR theorist, Nobel laureate Julian Schwinger,
resigned from the APS in the early 1990s because the APS journals refused to
publish his theories about the possible mechanisms of cold fusion.

The first popular journal to publish the news of the impending DoE review
is, however, the UK-based New Scientist. In its March 20, 2004 issue, which
was received in the mail today (3/20) at New Energy Foundation here in
Concord, New Hampshire, freelance journalist Ben Daviss reports in a short
article in the "Upfront: News in perspective" section (p.6), that James
Decker, deputy director of the DoE's Office of Science, "has pledged to
review evidence from the past 15 years of research in the controversial
field."  Daviss also writes, "The study could be completed by January 2005
and might open up the possibility of funding for cold fusion research
projects."

There is additional high-level scientific support for the DoE review: Former
DoE Office of Science Director, Dr. Mildred Dresselhaus (an MIT Professor of
Electrical Engineering and Computer Science) is quoted in the Physics Today
article: "I think scientists should be open-minded. Historically, many
things get overturned with time."  Prof. Dresselhaus was on the original
ERAB (Energy Research Advisory Board) Cold Fusion Panel in 1989, which
rendered a highly negative and very premature report on November 1, 1989.
Though over the years she has not been one of the highly antagonistic
critics of LENR with which that panel was packed, she did not assist
approaches to the DoE for LENR reconsideration, during her brief position at
DoE in the Clinton Administration years. This is a welcome turn-around for
MIT Prof. Dresselhaus, for which we commend her.

The initiative that helped launch the impending review was a letter to U.S.
Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham from MIT Professor Peter Hagelstein, a cold
fusion theorist since 1989.  Prof. Hagelstein chaired ICCF10, The Tenth
International Conference on Cold Fusion, which was held in Cambridge, MA and
in part at MIT, August 24-29, 2003.  Solid demonstrations of excess power in
electrolytic cells were exhibited on the MIT campus by two scientific
groups. It was shortly after ICCF10 that Prof. Hagelstein wrote to Spencer
Abraham. New Energy Foundation's journal, Infinite Energy Magazine, decided
to published Hagelstein's letter in its November/December 2003 issue (Vol.9,
No.52, p.46).  

Prof. Hagelstein told the U.S. Secretary of Energy that Wall Street Journal
reporter Sharon Begley, who had attended ICCF10 for a few days, concluded in
her "Science Journal" column of September 5, 2005, "that perhaps most
problematic about the conference was not what was presented and discussed at
the conference, but the lack of interest on the part of the scientific
community."  The Begley column was titled: "Cold Fusion Isn't Dead, It's
Just Withering from Scientific Neglect."  The door to DoE was evidently
further opened by Randall Hekman, who is an MIT graduate (1969), a former
judge, and an energy entrepreneur (Hekman Industries). Hekman knows Spencer
Abraham and Republican Congressman Vern Ehlers from Michigan, who is a
physicist.  Ehlers is quoted in the Physics Today article that it is time
for a new review "because there is enough  work going on and some of the
scientists in the area are from respected institutions."

One potential minefield for an honest review of the LENR evidence, apart
from the bias and well known hostility of the pathological skeptics, is the
raising of the straw man of the  alleged "requirement" for comprehensive
microphysical explanation of LENR phenomena before the experimental data can
be accepted.  That is a well-known anti-scientific tactic that the
pathological skeptics have employed for years. There have been many proposed
theories to explain the evidence ‹ both the excess heat and the nuclear
products - but no single theory appears yet to encompass ALL the evidence.
That is not an unusual condition on the frontiers of physics and science in
general, which the critics pretend to forget. So, our strongest advice for a
fundamental ground rule for the DoE review is that the review should focus
primarily on determining this key finding: the validity of the evidence for
non-chemical magnitude excess heat and nuclear anomalies ‹ as well as any
other physical anomalies associated with the systems, such as anomalies in
light emission.  Involved judgments about how the verified phenomena operate
should be reserved for the future.

In May 1991,  this author (Eugene Mallove) wrote in Fire from Ice: Searching
for the Truth Behind the Cold Fusion Furor (John Wiley & Sons):

³After reviewing mounting evidence from cold fusion experiments, I am
persuaded that it provides a compelling indication that a new kind of
nuclear process is at work. I would say that the evidence is *overwhelmingly
compelling* that cold fusion is a real, new nuclear process capable of
significant excess power generation...There is yet no proved nuclear
explanation for the excess heat. That excess heat exists is amply proved.²
                    (From the Preface, p. xv)

This conclusion of 1991, in the first book in the world which presented a
positive evaluation of the discovery,  was based on already very, very solid
evidence. Now the DoE review panel has much more evidence to back up that
same conclusion. It remains valid in 2004 as it was in 1991.  Another
excellent book, which reviews the entire cold fusion saga, is by MIT-trained
engineer Charles Beaudette (MIT '52), Excess Heat: Why Cold Fusion Research
Prevailed (2002 edition, available at www.infinite-energy.com)

Furthermore, it is the view of this author (perhaps not shared by many in
the LENR field) that the DoE review as part of its task should examine other
significant New Energy-related research that has been published, beyond what
is ordinarily confined within the LENR field (www.lenr-canr.org).  This
research is almost certain to shed significant light on what has been found
within LENR proper.  In particular, there are three primary websites where
such closely-related technical information and can be obtained:

  www.infinite-energy.com  (New Energy Foundation, Inc.)

  www.blacklightpower.com  (BlackLight Power Corporation)

  www.aetherometry.com     (Labofex and Aurora Biophysics Research Inst.)

As an additional assist to the prospective DoE review, a Memorandum to the
White House from this author (requested by President Clinton's staff in
February 2000, following the urging of our supporter Sir Arthur C. Clarke)
has been posted at www.infinite-energy.com. Review panelists and concerned
citizens should examine this document. It provides a concise historical and
technical overview of the scientific problem of energy from water, titled
"The Strange Birth of the Water Fuel Age."  Unfortunately, neither the
Clinton Administration nor the present Bush Administration acted on the
suggestions of this Memorandum, until the present impending review, which
was separately prompted by Professor Hagelstein's letter.  We sincerely
praise U.S. Secretary of Energy Spenser Abraham for facilitating this
landmark decision to launch a review.

Concerned citizens (and especially MIT graduates) should also examine the
55-page report about the events at MIT in the early days of the cold fusion
controversy ‹ a free downloadable pdf-file at www.infinite-energy.com

As a final note:  Though we very much appreciate that DoE will be carrying
out a review of the LENR evidence, we do not need DoE's imprint and approval
to realize that we are dealing with a critical frontier of scientific and
technological research that has been validated long ago. Funding for New
Energy research is needed NOW, not in  9 or 10 months! The DoE review is in
some sense at best a corrective to a severe "political problem" that has
occurred within the house of official science and in mainstream scientific
publication. Therefore, we urge readers of this message to consider
charitable contributions to the New Energy Foundation (a nonprofit 501(c)(3)
corporation). These contributions already have made possible scientific
research grants to New Energy investigators ‹ especially within LENR, as
well as on-going scientific publication efforts: books, magazines, video
tapes,  DVD's, etc.  For example, New Energy Foundation helped fund the
ICCF10 conference in Cambridge, MA last August, which helped lead to the DoE
review breakthrough.  ICCF11, which will be in Marseilles, France October
31-November 5, 2004 (www.iccf11.org) is also in need of financial support
from New Energy Foundation.

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove (MIT SB'69, SM'70; Harvard Sc.D. 1975)
President, New Energy Foundation, Inc.
(A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation)
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
       
        www.infinite-energy.com    editor infinite-energy.com
        603-485-4700  Fx: 603-485-4710


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 21 09:38:46 2004
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(1)  The door to DoE was evidently further opened by Randall Hekman, who is an MIT graduate (1969), a former judge, and an energy entrepreneur (Hekman Industries).

Good for Randy!  I haven't looked him up in ages.  He's a genuinely good man--as solid a person as anyone could hope to find.

(2)Republican Congressman Vern Ehlers from Michigan, who is a
physicist.  Ehlers is quoted in the Physics Today article that it is time
for a new review "because there is enough  work going on and some of the
scientists in the area are from respected institutions." 

Wow!--big turnaround for him.  Vernon is my Congressman and a former professor at my Alma Mater.  He is also highly respectable (and boring as a stick), but this is one of the most honest, solid, and non-flakey Congressmen one will ever find.  Environmentalists also like him because he's more supportive of their positions than the "typical" Republican is imagined to be.  Guess I'd better go to a few of his campaign meetings this year.  (I don't go otherwise because there's no reason to--he always wins with something like 70% or more of the vote--the Democrats haven't had a candidate-with-a-prayer-of-beating-him to face him since he first ran for national office.

Jeffery D. Kooistra  
 

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--- Harvey Norris <harvich yahoo.com> wrote:
> For 4 watts true alternator power delivery, I heat
> ferrite red hot, by use of METR inputs; this is over
> the unity barrier. For 12 watts a red speck can be
> seen, but this is just near over the over unity
> barrier. The ferrite looses resistance with heat,
> and
> the hotter you work, the more the overunity angle.
> Here I am showing the first evidence of this
> (reactive) over unity phase angle extraction with a
> 4
> watt extraction, where the 12 watt extraction is 4
> times less efficient for energy releases. I was
> trying
> some ambient magnetisation techniqes of ferrite, and
> found that the heat on one trial destroyed my NIB
> magnetizing influence.
Someone wrote requesting photos,which I forgot to
submit; however the only means available at the
present, save for sending the photos directly to a
recieving party, is to submit them on the teslafy
yahoo group I started. I am near the storage limit now
also, so I was going to redo the pics, as they are
unsatisfactory,(and then delete these former pics
soon) and out of focus, as the pics were made too
close to pieces. Unfortunately Yahoo has a policy of
making photos only available to group members, so one
would have to breifly sign on to see them. It does not
take long to subscribe, and just follow list
instructions for removal. Here are the URLs...
12 watt input/ferrite heating   1.8 A(deletion files)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/Dsc00568.jpg

 
4 watt true input to 2.3 AMP ferrite glow 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/Dsc00566.jpg


Now because the ferrite heating after DC rectification
consists of power extraction internal to three phase
alternator tank circuits, the actual "reactive" power
in 480 hz alternator application is higher then the
cited values. The cited "true" power input is the
heating loss on the exterior METR spirals of .6 ohm,
where that power input is calculated simply as I
squared R, and technically probably represents the
delivery intervening heating loss to the central
ferrite load being heated.

HDN

=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

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--part1_113.305742dc.2d8f77f5_boundary
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...into a ferret in heat!

: )

Erik Baard

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">...into a ferret in heat!<BR>
<BR>
: )<BR>
<BR>
Erik Baard</FONT></HTML>

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Erikbaard aol.com wrote:

> ...into a ferret in heat!


You're able to make a living writing, right?

:)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 21 19:20:22 2004
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: Asteroid flyby tonight
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:43:13 -0500
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Hi Horace.

you write:
>That may be so, but what happened shortly after the earth formed is not of
>any significant concern. It is irrelevant.  It is the record of the last
>1/8 of the earth's lifetime that is of concern.

>From the point of view of my argument, it matter much. I am suggesting
that if you could look at the overall trend of impacts, you would
see an expotential decay peaked at the time of the formation of
the planet, and dropping thereafter. This would be overlayed by
smaller scale phenomena, in addition to a constant level
of bombardment. I think we may have reached the steady state, and I'm
curious how the data you present was gathered?

>In this perspective there are 3 events in each of the last 300 million year
>periods.  I don't see any evidence of events disappearing with time.  On
>the contrary, there appears to be a cyclic pattern to the event durations,
>and, depending on how you look at it, it may be that we are somewhat
>overdue for an event.

Well, I'm a bit of a selfish bugger, so lets say we calculate the
odds of an event in my lifetime ( say 100 years, although I'll be
lucky to reach 60 I think ). I suspect this number will be pretty
damn small, huh? But, in the last 100 years, we did have an
event the size of Tunguska. So I might see something like this
in my lifetime.

You mention Jupiter and the remarkable series of impacts a few
years back. This I see is one of the great features of our
solar system, a sort of natural "star wars missile defence" which,
unlike the one we're developing, actually seems to work. Huge masses,
orbiting far away from the home planet, naturally drawing comets and
asteroids
into collision. Is it not possible that these planets are so large
_because_ this works as I describe?

I think the issue is a concern, but given the threats now confronting
us, an unlikely one. I still feel that given the timeframes you
discuss, the next asteroid hit on Earth will be artificially generated
rather than natural.

K.

PS: Fun story about Shoemaker, it's comforting to me that our current
defense consists of amateurs like Shoemaker. These people are far
more motivated to find objects than anything money can buy. Some smart
educator should start a "planetary defense corps" to get young people
interested in astronomy.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 21 21:32:45 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: U.S. DoE Will Review 15-Years of  "Cold Fusion" Excess Heat and	       
 Nuclear Evidence
Cc: Eugene Mallove <editor infinite-energy.com>
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At 11:15 AM 3/21/4, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
[snip]
>Furthermore, it is the view of this author (perhaps not shared by many in
>the LENR field) that the DoE review as part of its task should examine other
>significant New Energy-related research that has been published, beyond what
>is ordinarily confined within the LENR field (www.lenr-canr.org).  This
>research is almost certain to shed significant light on what has been found
>within LENR proper.  In particular, there are three primary websites where
>such closely-related technical information and can be obtained:
>
>  www.infinite-energy.com  (New Energy Foundation, Inc.)
>
>  www.blacklightpower.com  (BlackLight Power Corporation)
>
>  www.aetherometry.com     (Labofex and Aurora Biophysics Research Inst.)
[snip]


This kind of high level cold fusion review should be focused on data, not
on theory.  Data, data, data.  Quality data.  To the extent possible,
replicated data.  Data produced by people highly qualified to do the work,
preferably having a PhD in a field most applicable to the work, be it
physics or chemistry.  Data preferably produced in National labs or in
university environments.  Data produced by people who do not stand to make
fortunes on the outcome, the acceptance or refutation of the results.

It even makes some sense to ignore excess heat results entirely and focus
on nuclear anomalies, like production of helium, tritium, neutrons, or even
heavy transmutations provided the data is of high quality.  If the past
experiences on sci.physics.fusion, and of late vortex-l eskimo.co, have
taught us any lesson then that lesson should be how difficult it is to gain
acceptance of calorimetry data.  For that matter, these experiences have
taught how difficult it is to do calorimetry without inadvertantly creating
artifacts.  At this point it is better to firmly establish one indisputable
anomaly than it is to have a lot of highly controversial stuff reviewed
only to have the inevitable ambivalent or negative outcome from the review.


A horrific approach would be to have data reviewed from experiments
designed by, and interpreted based upon, theories which are not only
controversial and non-mainstream, but which have absolutely no possibility
of mainstream acceptance without commercial working devices being available
in the marketplace.  To really sabotage things one should make sure in
large part the theories and data to be reviewed have been produced by
people without impeccable credentials yet who are working in part or in
whole for the profit potential.

It seems to me that some of the best work for review might even be a bit
outside the original F&P fusion in a bottle, and might be work with no
immediate commercial prospects.  The work of people like Claytor on tritium
generation on low energy thin wires, possibly the work by Taleyarkhan et al
on sonofusion   (though still perhaps too controversial), the work by
Kamada et al bombarding deuterium loaded aluminum targets, and the slew of
reports of heavy transmutations by Bockris et al and others.

The objective at hand it seems to me is to establish solid scientific
anomalies, justification for serious scientific work and publication, not
capital formation or business development.  However, that said, recent
ICCF's have had what appears to be a number of somewhat replicated
experiments showing positive reports, for example work relating to the
effect of lasers on loaded cathodes, like that of Storms, Cravens, etc.
Replicated work should have a high priority even if it does involve
calorimetry.

If no other objective is obtained from this study than legitimizing
publication of work in the field, then this will be a significant step
forward, a step toward eventual research funding.  I hope the opportunity
is not wasted by a strategic blunder.  This is an effort that should be as
mainstream as possible.  The more fringe it is, the more useless the
effort.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 21 23:11:05 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: U.S. DoE Will Review 15-Years of  "Cold Fusion" Excess Heat and	       
 Nuclear Evidence
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At 11:15 AM 3/21/4, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
[snip]
>Furthermore, it is the view of this author (perhaps not shared by many in
>the LENR field) that the DoE review as part of its task should examine other
>significant New Energy-related research that has been published, beyond what
>is ordinarily confined within the LENR field (www.lenr-canr.org).  This
>research is almost certain to shed significant light on what has been found
>within LENR proper.  In particular, there are three primary websites where
>such closely-related technical information and can be obtained:
>
>  www.infinite-energy.com  (New Energy Foundation, Inc.)
>
>  www.blacklightpower.com  (BlackLight Power Corporation)
>
>  www.aetherometry.com     (Labofex and Aurora Biophysics Research Inst.)
[snip]


This kind of high level cold fusion review should be focused on data, not
on theory.  Data, data, data.  Quality data.  To the extent possible,
replicated data.  Data produced by people highly qualified to do the work,
preferably having a PhD in a field most applicable to the work, be it
physics or chemistry.  Data preferably produced in National labs or in
university environments.  Data produced by people who do not stand to make
fortunes on the outcome, the acceptance or refutation of the results.

It even makes some sense to ignore excess heat results entirely and focus
on nuclear anomalies, like production of helium, tritium, neutrons, or even
heavy transmutations provided the data is of high quality.  If the past
experiences on sci.physics.fusion, and of late vortex-l eskimo.co, have
taught us any lesson then that lesson should be how difficult it is to gain
acceptance of calorimetry data.  For that matter, these experiences have
taught how difficult it is to do calorimetry without inadvertantly creating
artifacts.  At this point it is better to firmly establish one indisputable
anomaly than it is to have a lot of highly controversial stuff reviewed
only to have the inevitable ambivalent or negative outcome from the review.


A horrific approach would be to have data reviewed from experiments
designed by, and interpreted based upon, theories which are not only
controversial and non-mainstream, but which have absolutely no possibility
of mainstream acceptance without commercial working devices being available
in the marketplace.  To really sabotage things one should make sure in
large part the theories and data to be reviewed have been produced by
people without impeccable credentials yet who are working in part or in
whole for the profit potential.

It seems to me that some of the best work for review might even be a bit
outside the original F&P fusion in a bottle, and might be work with no
immediate commercial prospects.  The work of people like Claytor on tritium
generation on low energy thin wires, possibly the work by Taleyarkhan et al
on sonofusion   (though still perhaps too controversial), the work by
Kamada et al bombarding deuterium loaded aluminum targets, and the slew of
reports of heavy transmutations by Bockris et al and others.

The objective at hand it seems to me is to establish solid scientific
anomalies, justification for serious scientific work and publication, not
capital formation or business development.  However, that said, recent
ICCF's have had what appears to be a number of somewhat replicated
experiments showing positive reports, for example work relating to the
effect of lasers on loaded cathodes, like that of Storms, Cravens, etc.
Replicated work should have a high priority even if it does involve
calorimetry.

If no other objective is obtained from this study than legitimizing
publication of work in the field, then this will be a significant step
forward, a step toward eventual research funding.  I hope the opportunity
is not wasted by a strategic blunder.  This is an effort that should be as
mainstream as possible.  The more fringe it is, the more useless the
effort.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 08:25:39 2004
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:26:00 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Save Hubble
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There is a bill before congress which would reverse the decision of 
the NASA Administrator to abandon the Hubble, HR 550. If you agree 
that it is one of the best investments that the government has made 
in terms of science produced, you should contact your representative.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 08:25:47 2004
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:26:00 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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Horace Heffner replied

>course if you assume just a bit more velocity than escape velocity you get
>right back up to about 1 megaton TNT. It's in that ballpark for sure.  If
>you happen to be in the impact area I doubt the difference will be
>significant!  8^)

Doesn't it depend on the angle of incidence?

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From: Steve Krivit <stevek dlsi.net>
Subject: Re: U.S. DoE Will Review 15-Years of  "Cold Fusion" Excess
  Heat and Nuclear Evidence
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Horace:

You may like to know that the DOE people in charge of the review have 
received a copy of the following:

http://www.newenergytimes.com/reports/Review20ColdFusionPapers.htm


Steve 

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At 10:43 PM 3/21/4, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hi Horace.
>
>you write:
>>That may be so, but what happened shortly after the earth formed is not of
>>any significant concern. It is irrelevant.  It is the record of the last
>>1/8 of the earth's lifetime that is of concern.
>
>>From the point of view of my argument, it matter much. I am suggesting
>that if you could look at the overall trend of impacts, you would
>see an expotential decay peaked at the time of the formation of
>the planet, and dropping thereafter.


I don't think this is necessarily true.  In fact, if the Nemesis theory is
correct the exponential decay of collision events probably died out for the
most part long ago, prior to 3.6 billion years.  The pre-cambrian period
lasted from about 3.5 biliion years ago to the cambrian period about 570
million years ago.  It might be that a Nemesis cloud creating event occured
about 570 million years ago.  That may be a useful working hypothesis.  In
that case the collision rate would have jumped a large amount at that time
bu remained roughly constant.  The thing that appears to be true, that is
worrisome, is that we have a farily constant large event hit rate in recent
times, i.e the last 600 million years or so.


>This would be overlayed by
>smaller scale phenomena, in addition to a constant level
>of bombardment.

Yes.


>I think we may have reached the steady state,

If we agree on that then I feel we agree on the important point.


>and I'm
>curious how the data you present was gathered?



Well, I did include a reference to:

   <http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/exfiles/massintro.htm>

There is lots of information in subordinate URL's, especially off:

   <http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/exfiles/quest1.htm>

A Google search of "mass extinction" or "global mass extinction", etc. will
turn up a lot more stuff.  Basically the data is obtained by careful
catalogging of fossil species in various geologic layers of the earth's
crust.  These layers are similar all over the earth with respect to layer
thickness, associated fossil species, mineral content, and age as
determined by isotopic analysis.  Sudden changes in the groups of species
present demark geologic ages and mass extinctions.  In one layer many
species exist that do not exist in the next layer.  Sometimes these major
extictions are associted with a thin layer of unusual metal deposits.
These metals are only found in large proportions in meteorites, e.g.
iridium.  This is how the metorite extinction hypothesis was orighinated.
There are quibbles about the preciseness of the dating of the geologic
ages, but as far as I know not of the ages themselves, nor of the rough
approximate dates of the age transistions.  As the above web page states,
there is general agreement on at least 6 global mass extinctions as well,
some of which have been strongly associated with specific impact sites.


I think it is interresting that things get buried at all, geologically
speaking.  Geologic layers are not just formed undersea, so are not just
due to sedimentation caused by the presence of water.  Something is making
deposits on the surface of both water and land.  I don't think it is just
volcanos.  Things get buried that are not near volcanos.   What can that
be?   I think the answer must be the steady stream of dust coming from the
sky - dust due to meteorites.  If that is true, then a reasonable
speculation is tha it might be possible to find a significant dust fall, a
fairly thick but quickly formed geologic layer, associated with Nemesis
returns.  I don't know if there is any evidence of this or not.



>
>>In this perspective there are 3 events in each of the last 300 million year
>>periods.  I don't see any evidence of events disappearing with time.  On
>>the contrary, there appears to be a cyclic pattern to the event durations,
>>and, depending on how you look at it, it may be that we are somewhat
>>overdue for an event.
>
>Well, I'm a bit of a selfish bugger, so lets say we calculate the
>odds of an event in my lifetime ( say 100 years, although I'll be
>lucky to reach 60 I think ). I suspect this number will be pretty
>damn small, huh?


For major extiction impacts, yes indeed.  Even if the most frequent number
suggested is used, i.e every 25 million years on average, you get a
probability of 1/((2.5x10^7)/(10^2)) = 4x10^-6, or about 4 chances in a
million, one in 250,000.  This in fact provides a fairly good argument for
a coming Nemesis cloud, a coming earth impact event.  That argument is that
an impact with Jupiter is similarly unlikely.  Jupiter's radius is about 10
times that of earth, so its cross section is about 100 times that of earth.
Actually, considering its gravitational field, due to Jupiter being a lot
less dense than earth, its true collision cross section may be a lot less
than 100 times that of earth.   At any rate, we would expect a major event
on Jupiter about once in every 2500 lifetimes.  Isn't it very strange that
we witnessed one in our lifetimes?


>>But, in the last 100 years, we did have an
>event the size of Tunguska. So I might see something like this
>in my lifetime.


Tunguska happened to be in an area where the record of the event was
maintained.  In many other areas of the world, especially at sea, or in
arctic areas, there would be no such record.  The probability of a Tunguska
sized even, 10 megatons, might thus be much more proable than once in a
lifetime.  Also, if a 10 megaton event if once in a lifetime, a 1 megaton
event or larger should be more often.  If anything it is surprising we have
not had more of them.  I suppose that could be an agrument that tunguska
was an unusal event, one that happens a lot less often than once in a 100
years.  On the other hand, if the probability of an event changes with
time, an event of that size within the last 100 years migth be a precourser
of some kind.  It might also be that small objects are less common than
originally in the solar system  because they tend to come together to form
comets, etc.


>
>You mention Jupiter and the remarkable series of impacts a few
>years back. This I see is one of the great features of our
>solar system, a sort of natural "star wars missile defence" which,
>unlike the one we're developing, actually seems to work. Huge masses,
>orbiting far away from the home planet, naturally drawing comets and
>asteroids
>into collision. Is it not possible that these planets are so large
>_because_ this works as I describe?


I don't think so.  Not in the last 100 million years anyway, which is just
a brief time for the solar system.  Also, if you consider the sum of the
cross section of Jupiter, Saturn, etc., compared to the angular area of our
sphere, the probability of this "missile defense system" actually working
are about nill.


>
>I think the issue is a concern, but given the threats now confronting
>us, an unlikely one. I still feel that given the timeframes you
>discuss, the next asteroid hit on Earth will be artificially generated
>rather than natural.

Could be, but we would still need the warning system in that event.


>
>K.
>
>PS: Fun story about Shoemaker, it's comforting to me that our current
>defense consists of amateurs like Shoemaker. These people are far
>more motivated to find objects than anything money can buy. Some smart
>educator should start a "planetary defense corps" to get young people
>interested in astronomy.


I think there is something already formed or forming along those lines.  A
number of CF folks (e.g Tom Drouge?) have been involved in that.  Not so
much aligned on the youth aspect as along the amateur aspect though.  Such
an effort would of course be enhanced a great deal through internet
coordination or even direct networking of telescopes.  The imbedded
operating system technology required is only just becoming very affordable
and accessable for amateurs, so I expect some significant developments
along those lines.  I understand Scott Little bought himself a pretty nice
scope in recent years, but I don't know if he is involved in impact object
searching.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: U.S. DoE Will Review 15-Years of  "Cold Fusion" Excess	  Heat and Nuclear
 Evidence
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At 9:01 AM 3/22/4, Steve Krivit wrote:
>Horace:
>
>You may like to know that the DOE people in charge of the review have
>received a copy of the following:
>
>http://www.newenergytimes.com/reports/Review20ColdFusionPapers.htm
>
>
>Steve

An interesting cross-section.  Thanks for posting.

One thing seems really apparent at this point.  There has not been
sufficient replication work in the field, independent work at differing
locations by differing teams.  Not enough true replication, without either
"ego modifications" or the corner cutting necessitated by highly limited
budgets.  If there is an area where significant government support is
justified, then that must be it.

A troublesome problem if funding were to be made available for replications
is who gets the support?  What experiments are to be replicated?  Hopefully
someone who has taken a strongly adversarial position, like Parks or
Huezenga, would not be in charge of such choices!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: U.S. DoE Will Review 15-Years of  "Cold Fusion" Excess	 
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Horace:


>An interesting cross-section.  Thanks for posting.

You are welcome.


>One thing seems really apparent at this point.  There has not been
>sufficient replication work in the field,
>independent work at differing
>locations by differing teams.  Not enough true replication, without either
>"ego modifications" or the corner cutting necessitated by highly limited
>budgets.  If there is an area where significant government support is
>justified, then that must be it.

I strongly agree.



>A troublesome problem if funding were to be made available for replications
>is who gets the support?  What experiments are to be replicated?

Money, politics and fame...will become topics of interest.


>Hopefully someone who has taken a strongly adversarial position, like Parks or
>Huezenga, would not be in charge of such choices!

I think their time has come.
 From page 21 of my paper "The Cold Fusion Report", available later this week:


Eight months after the initial announcement, a panel of individuals from 
industry and academia who served on the U.S. Department of Energy's Energy 
Resources Advisory Board dealt cold fusion a critical blow when the panel 
decided that Fleischmann and Pons' claims did not warrant special federal 
funding. The cold fusion panel was selected and directed by John Huizenga, 
professor emeritus of chemistry and physics at
My guess is that the University of Rochester, New York. In Huizenga's 1993 
book Cold Fusion: The Scientific Fiasco of the Century, he wrote, "My 
initial feeling was that the whole cold fusion episode would be short-lived 
and that it would be wise to delay appointing
such a panel."




Steve 
--=====================_1008010250==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Horace:<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>An interesting cross-section.&nbsp;
Thanks for posting.</blockquote><br>
You are welcome.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>One thing seems really apparent at
this point.&nbsp; There has not been<br>
sufficient replication work in the field, <br>
independent work at differing<br>
locations by differing teams.&nbsp; Not enough true replication, without
either<br>
&quot;ego modifications&quot; or the corner cutting necessitated by
highly limited<br>
budgets.&nbsp; If there is an area where significant government support
is<br>
justified, then that must be it.</blockquote><br>
I strongly agree.<br><br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>A troublesome problem if funding
were to be made available for replications<br>
is who gets the support?&nbsp; What experiments are to be
replicated?&nbsp; </blockquote><br>
Money, politics and fame...will become topics of interest.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Hopefully someone who has taken a
strongly adversarial position, like Parks or<br>
Huezenga, would not be in charge of such choices!</blockquote><br>
I think their time has come.<br>
 From page 21 of my paper &quot;The Cold Fusion Report&quot;, available
later this week:<br><br>
<br>
Eight months after the initial announcement, a panel of individuals from
industry and academia who served on the U.S. Department of Energy's
Energy Resources Advisory Board dealt cold fusion a critical blow when
the panel decided that Fleischmann and Pons' claims did not warrant
special federal funding. The cold fusion panel was selected and directed
by John Huizenga, professor emeritus of chemistry and physics at <br>
My guess is that the University of Rochester, New York. In Huizenga's
1993 book <i>Cold Fusion: The Scientific Fiasco of the Century</i>, he
wrote, <b>&quot;My initial feeling was that the whole cold fusion episode
would be short-lived and that it would be wise to delay appointing <br>
such a panel.&quot;<br><br>
<br><br>
</b><x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steve</body>
</html>

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Subject: NEW REPORT ESTABLISHES CASE FOR COLD FUSION
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
MARCH 22, 2004

CONTACT: Steven Krivit
(310) 470-8189 (Office)
<mailto:steven newenergytimes.com>


NEW REPORT ESTABLISHES CASE FOR COLD FUSION

U. S.  DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY TO TAKE  A

SECOND LOOK AT CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT


LOS ANGELES, March 22, 2004 -- Coinciding with the U.S. Department of 
Energy's decision to re-open the case on cold fusion, investigators Steven 
Krivit and Nadine Winocur have released the most current work on the 
history and progress of the science.

"The Cold Fusion Report" is based on personal communication with more than 
50 scientists from around the world, 28 of whom Krivit interviewed on 
camera at the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion in Cambridge, 
Mass. As documented in the report, prominent U.S. scientists verify the 
efficacy of this controversial discovery.

The report follows confirmation by U.S. Department of Energy media contact 
Jacqueline Johnson, as detailed in the "Upfront" section of the latest 
issue of New Scientist, that the department has committed to a second 
review of cold fusion. Another story, tentatively titled "DOE Warms to Cold 
Fusion," will be published in the April 1 Web edition of Physics Today, at 
www.physicstoday.org .

The U.S. Department of Energy discussed a re-evaluation of cold fusion on 
Nov. 6, 2003, when representatives from the Office of Science met with a 
team of established scientists who have studied cold fusion for 15 years. 
The scientists reported that cold fusion is real, with results that are 
robust, verifiable and repeatable.

This review is expected to evaluate the credibility of current claims and, 
assuming they are verified, decide whether government funding should be 
directed to cold fusion research.

Although recent experimental results are promising, their commercial 
viability remains unknown. Scientists hope that new research will provide 
an answer to whether cold fusion may become a future energy source.

The 53-page report includes quotes from such scientists as Dr. Melvin 
Miles, former senior electrochemist of the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons 
Division at China Lake, Calif., who, commenting on an eight-year series of 
U.S. Navy cold fusion experiments, concluded, "In our opinion, these 
[findings] provide compelling evidence that the [cold fusion effects] are 
real. This research area has the potential to provide the human race with a 
nearly unlimited new source of energy. It is possible that [cold fusion] 
will prove to be one of the most important scientific discoveries of this 
century."

It also cites a senior member of the technical staff at the U.S. 
government's Sandia National Laboratories, James Corey, who expressed at 
the September 2003 Energetic Materials Intelligence Symposium that "an 
overdue revolution in science will arrive, [and] the reputations of cold 
fusion scientists and those who revile them may be reversed."

Although 3,000 scientific papers have been written about cold fusion, 
progress is underreported in the scientific and popular media because of a 
rift between cold fusion researchers and the scientific establishment, 
which has refused in its journals to publish articles relating to cold fusion.

In a September 2003 article, science columnist Sharon Begley of the Wall 
Street Journal noted of this phenomenon, "the only thing pathological about 
cold fusion is the way the scientific establishment has treated it."

"The Cold Fusion Report" includes the following findings:

         o       More than 150 scientists worldwide, including 60 
physicists, hold that cold fusion
                 is a verifiable, reproducible low-temperature nuclear 
reaction, free of harmful radiation
                 and nuclear waste.

         o       Evidence that the effect is reproducible and has been 
demonstrated
                 in many laboratories around the world, through a variety 
of methods.

         o       Citations from five scientific papers which report 
correlation between excess energy
                 and the nuclear by-product helium-4, a key finding which 
verifies the claims of low-
                 temperature nuclear reactions. Historically, critics of 
cold fusion erroneously
                 assumed that "cold fusion" should emit the same nuclear 
products as "hot fusion."
                 Later research demonstrated that the hunt for the "missing 
neutrons" was
                 misdirected and that the dominant product of cold fusion, 
instead, is helium-4.

"The Cold Fusion Report" also includes evidence of the veracity of cold 
fusion in several previously unreleased documents:

         o       A 1993 report to the Pentagon by former JASONS chairman 
Richard Garwin and by
                 chemistry professor Nathan Lewis of Caltech that supports 
the findings of "excess
                 heat," providing key evidence for the cold fusion effect. 
Four years earlier, Lewis
                 tried unsuccessfully to replicate the cold fusion effect 
and subsequently became one
                 of the most outspoken critics of cold fusion.

         o       A 1991 report by chemistry professor Alan Bard of the 
University of Texas,
                 a vocal critic of cold fusion who confirmed the presence 
of "excess heat"
                 in an independent laboratory experiment at SRI International.

         o       Two 1995 papers by scientists from Amoco Production Co. 
and Shell Research
                 reporting positive, unambiguous evidence from their own 
cold fusion experiments.

Part 1 of "The Cold Fusion Report" examines factors that led the scientific 
community to a premature rejection of the validity of cold fusion and 
explains why developments in cold fusion have gone virtually unreported. It 
reviews studies revealing that the early experiments conducted by prominent 
laboratories that were presumed to have debunked cold fusion were in fact 
seriously flawed.

Part 2 of the report discusses the current status of cold fusion research. 
It reviews advances over the past 15 years and identifies the major 
unanswered questions. The report concludes with a glimpse of possible 
future applications for cold fusion technology.

"The Cold Fusion Report" was reviewed for technical accuracy by two 
physicists with decades of experience in conventional fusion, one of whom 
has studied cold fusion, as well. The other, a skeptical plasma physicist 
who works for a major U.S. fusion research center, described the report as 
"correct, readable, even and unbiased, suitable for reaching physicists and 
educated people."


Steven Krivit
Nadine Winocur
(310) 470-8189 (Office)
<mailto:steven newenergytimes.com>steven@newenergytimes.com
http://www.newenergytimes.com



--=====================_1008051359==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE<br>
MARCH 22, 2004<br><br>
CONTACT: Steven Krivit <br>
(310) 470-8189 (Office)<br>
<a href="mailto:steven newenergytimes.com"><br><br>
<br>
</a><div align="center"><font size=4><b>NEW REPORT ESTABLISHES CASE FOR
COLD FUSION<br><br>
</font>U. S.&nbsp; DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY TO TAKE&nbsp; A&nbsp; <br><br>
SECOND LOOK AT CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT<br><br>
<br>
</b></div>
LOS ANGELES, March 22, 2004 -- Coinciding with the U.S. Department of
Energy's decision to re-open the case on cold fusion, investigators
Steven Krivit and Nadine Winocur have released the most current work on
the history and progress of the science.<br><br>
&quot;The Cold Fusion Report&quot; is based on personal communication
with more than 50 scientists from around the world, 28 of whom Krivit
interviewed on camera at the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion
in Cambridge, Mass. As documented in the report, prominent U.S.
scientists verify the efficacy of this controversial discovery.&nbsp;
<br><br>
The report follows confirmation by U.S. Department of Energy media
contact Jacqueline Johnson, as detailed in the &quot;Upfront&quot;
section of the latest issue of New Scientist, that the department has
committed to a second review of cold fusion. Another story, tentatively
titled &quot;DOE Warms to Cold Fusion,&quot; will be published in the
April 1 Web edition of Physics Today, at
<a href="http://www.physicstoday.org/" eudora="autourl">www.physicstoday.org</a>
. <br><br>
The U.S. Department of Energy discussed a re-evaluation of cold fusion on Nov. 6, 2003, when representatives from the Office of Science met with a team of established scientists who have studied cold fusion for 15 years. The scientists reported that cold fusion is real, with results that are robust, verifiable and repeatable.<br><br>
This review is expected to evaluate the credibility of current claims and, assuming they are verified, decide whether government funding should be directed to cold fusion research. <br><br>
Although recent experimental results are promising, their commercial viability remains unknown. Scientists hope that new research will provide an answer to whether cold fusion may become a future energy source. <br><br>
The 53-page report includes quotes from such scientists as Dr. Melvin Miles, former senior electrochemist of the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division at China Lake, Calif., who, commenting on an eight-year series of U.S. Navy cold fusion experiments, concluded, &quot;In our opinion, these [findings] provide compelling evidence that the [cold fusion effects] are real. This research area has the potential to provide the human race with a nearly unlimited new source of energy. It is possible that [cold fusion] will prove to be one of the most important scientific discoveries of this century.&quot;<br><br>
It also cites a senior member of the technical staff at the U.S. government's Sandia National Laboratories, James Corey, who expressed at the September 2003 Energetic Materials Intelligence Symposium that &quot;an overdue revolution in science will arrive, [and] the reputations of cold fusion scientists and those who revile them may be reversed.&quot;<br><br>
Although 3,000 scientific papers have been written about cold fusion, progress is underreported in the scientific and popular media because of a rift between cold fusion researchers and the scientific establishment, which has refused in its journals to publish articles relating to cold fusion. <br><br>
In a September 2003 article, science columnist Sharon Begley of the Wall Street Journal noted of this phenomenon, &quot;the only thing pathological about cold fusion is the way the scientific establishment has treated it.&quot;<br><br>
&quot;The Cold Fusion Report&quot; includes the following findings:<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>More than 150 scientists worldwide, including 60 physicists, hold that cold fusion<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>is a verifiable, reproducible low-temperature nuclear reaction, free of harmful radiation <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>and nuclear waste. <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o <x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Evidence that the effect is reproducible and has been demonstrated<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>in many laboratories around the world, through a variety of methods.<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o&nbsp; <x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Citations from five scientific papers which report correlation between excess energy <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>and the nuclear by-product helium-4, a key finding which verifies the claims of low-<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>temperature nuclear reactions. Historically, critics of cold fusion erroneously <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>assumed that &quot;cold fusion&quot; should emit the same nuclear products as &quot;hot fusion.&quot; <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Later research demonstrated that the hunt for the &quot;missing neutrons&quot; was<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>misdirected and that the dominant product of cold fusion, instead, is helium-4.<br><br>
&quot;The Cold Fusion Report&quot; also includes evidence of the veracity of cold fusion in several previously unreleased documents:<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o&nbsp;&nbsp; <x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>A 1993 report to the Pentagon by former JASONS chairman Richard Garwin and by <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>chemistry professor Nathan Lewis of Caltech that supports the findings of &quot;excess <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>heat,&quot; providing key evidence for the cold fusion effect. Four years earlier, Lewis<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>tried unsuccessfully to replicate the cold fusion effect and subsequently became one <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>of the most outspoken critics of cold fusion.<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>A 1991 report by chemistry professor Alan Bard of the University of Texas, <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>a vocal critic of cold fusion who confirmed the presence of &quot;excess heat&quot; <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>in an independent laboratory experiment at SRI International. <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o&nbsp;&nbsp; <x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Two 1995 papers by scientists from Amoco Production Co. and Shell Research<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>reporting positive, unambiguous evidence from their own cold fusion experiments.<br><br>
Part 1 of &quot;The Cold Fusion Report&quot; examines factors that led the scientific community to a premature rejection of the validity of cold fusion and explains why developments in cold fusion have gone virtually unreported. It reviews studies revealing that the early experiments conducted by prominent laboratories that were presumed to have debunked cold fusion were in fact seriously flawed.<br><br>
Part 2 of the report discusses the current status of cold fusion research. It reviews advances over the past 15 years and identifies the major unanswered questions. The report concludes with a glimpse of possible future applications for cold fusion technology.<br><br>
&quot;The Cold Fusion Report&quot; was reviewed for technical accuracy by two physicists with decades of experience in conventional fusion, one of whom has studied cold fusion, as well. The other, a skeptical plasma physicist who works for a major U.S. fusion research center, described the report as &quot;correct, readable, even and unbiased, suitable for reaching physicists and educated people.&quot;&nbsp; <br><br>
<br>
Steven Krivit <br>
Nadine Winocur <br>
(310) 470-8189 (Office)<br>
<a href="mailto:steven newenergytimes.com">steven@newenergytimes.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/" eudora="autourl">http://www.newenergytimes.com</a><br><br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_1008051359==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 11:36:02 2004
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:39:41 -0800
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 9:01 AM 3/22/4, Steve Krivit wrote:
> >Horace:
> >
> >You may like to know that the DOE people in charge of the review have
> >received a copy of the following:
> >
> >http://www.newenergytimes.com/reports/Review20ColdFusionPapers.htm
> >
> >
> >Steve
>
> An interesting cross-section.  Thanks for posting.
>
> One thing seems really apparent at this point.  There has not been
> sufficient replication work in the field, independent work at differing
> locations by differing teams.

Horace, I wonder what you mean by "sufficient replication work".  How much is
sufficient and sufficient for what purpose?  If the intent is to convince a
skeptic who does not trust calorimetry, then no amount would be "sufficient".
If the intent is to explore the important variables to see if these variables
are sufficiently well understood to make the effect work at another
laboratory, then this has been done many times.  Granted, not all aspects of
what has been observed have been replicated.  Also, some attempts fail
occasionally.  But are these "sufficient" reasons to think that a real novel
phenomenon has not been discovered?

> Not enough true replication, without either
> "ego modifications" or the corner cutting necessitated by highly limited
> budgets.  If there is an area where significant government support is
> justified, then that must be it.

I suggest support should not be directed toward replication.  The issue now is
to learn how to amplify the effect so that commercial heat can be produced.
This means that the known variables need to be explored, which will frequently
produce negative results.  Such negative results are very valuable because
they show the negative limits of the variables.  Once the negative limits are
known, the direction required to produce positive becomes obvious.

>
>
> A troublesome problem if funding were to be made available for replications
> is who gets the support?  What experiments are to be replicated?  Hopefully
> someone who has taken a strongly adversarial position, like Parks or
> Huezenga, would not be in charge of such choices!

Being the pessimist that I have revealed myself to be, I predict that most
government funding will be controlled by the skeptics.  Because they believe
the effect is nonsense, they will give money to people who will reinforce this
conclusion.  Only occasionally will some good work be done that will slowly
change the attitude, while a lot of money and time will be wasted.

Regards, Ed

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 12:37:50 2004
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From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
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 . . . while trying to get out of the Eagle:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/056/1N133164713EFF0700P1705R0M1.JPG

you can see where the "sand" has slipped back toward the rover.

NASA is seeking another approach to Exit the Eagle.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 13:12:22 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Sheetmetal on Mars?
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See:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/075/2P133025104EFF21CEP2516L
2M1.JPG>

and the bunch of associated Sol 65 Spirit navcam photos.  It looks like
there might be a sheet of material poking up from the sand.  Maybe not too.


Those who can make color composites might want to see if the material looks
like sheetmetal.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 16:27:57 2004
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:31:29 -0500
Subject: Mars announcement tomorrow
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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I caught something on the Fox News scrolling text that NASA will be making
an announcement tomorrow -- 3/23 -- about a major scientific finding on
Mars..

 Well, they can't be dealing with water, can they? -- they've already hit
that. So, what will it be????

 - Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 17:07:07 2004
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:07:00 -0800 (PST)
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Call for papers at International Symposium on Ball Lightning in Taiwan.

Anyone interested?  I can forward the half-meg attachment to you.

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:51:33 +0900
From: Hideho OFURUTON <ofuruton kouku-k.ac.jp>
To:
Subject: ISBL04 Last Call for papers

Dear Sirs,

We apologize for sending the Last Call for Papers of ISBL04 (8th
International Symposium on Ball Lightning in Taiwan, 3rd - 6th August)
so late. We postponed the deadlines, because we hope that many people
come to this beautiful island and attend the symposium. And we also
send a essay written by Dr.Kamogawa, one of the chairpersons of this
symposium, who visited Taiwan many times to make his research.  We
look forward to seeing you in Taiwan this summer.

Yours sincerely

Ofuruton, Hideho
Tokyo Metropolitan College of Aeronautical Engineering




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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:10:43 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: NEW REPORT ESTABLISHES CASE FOR COLD FUSION
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On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Steve Krivit wrote:

> Fusion," will be published in the April 1 Web edition of Physics Today, at
> www.physicstoday.org .

The april first edition?    :)


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 17:24:59 2004
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From: "SnowDog" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
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References: <BC84EF91.D1F6%editor infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mars announcement tomorrow
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:25:14 -0600
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> I caught something on the Fox News scrolling text that NASA will be making
> an announcement tomorrow -- 3/23 -- about a major scientific finding on
> Mars..
> 
>  Well, they can't be dealing with water, can they? -- they've already hit
> that. So, what will it be????

Report of the Announcement:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/opportunity_announcement_040322.html

Craig Haynie

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 17:43:28 2004
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:09:16 -0500
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Tune your browsers into

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/

at about 1:45pm EST tomorow and grab a thread before they're
all eaten.

K.

PS Some more linkz

http://www.ascribe.org/cgi-bin/spew4th.pl?ascribeid=20040322.112505&time=12%
2008%20PST&year=2004&public=1

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&s
id=888&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Sorry for the breaking. Anyone know a mail client neutral method
of preventing this? I've tried the <> and >< trick and neither
works.


-----Original Message-----
From: SnowDog [mailto:SnowDog GoldDirectory.com]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 8:25 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mars announcement tomorrow


> I caught something on the Fox News scrolling text that NASA will be making
> an announcement tomorrow -- 3/23 -- about a major scientific finding on
> Mars..
>
>  Well, they can't be dealing with water, can they? -- they've already hit
> that. So, what will it be????

Report of the Announcement:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/opportunity_announcement_040322.html

Craig Haynie


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 18:48:54 2004
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:51:06 -0500
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 . . . is killing the elk:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1850&u=/cpress/20040322/ca_pr_on_sc/elk_deaths_6&printer=1

(Not about Mars)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 19:01:43 2004
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Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 10:26 AM 3/22/4, thomas malloy wrote:
>Horace Heffner replied
>
>>course if you assume just a bit more velocity than escape velocity you get
>>right back up to about 1 megaton TNT. It's in that ballpark for sure.  If
>>you happen to be in the impact area I doubt the difference will be
>>significant!  8^)
>
>Doesn't it depend on the angle of incidence?


Yes.  To a fairly large angle the higher the angle of incidence the larger
the blast and char area.  Suppose the glide slope is about 1:10, and a 10
megaton impactor starts radiating significantly at an altitude of about 60
km.  The blast and char area will be elongated.  I think a 1 megaton device
can char and start fires at 80 km, certainly at 60.  The char area could
average 60 km wide and 600 km long, about 36,000 square km.  If the thing
just impacted vertically a 60 km char radius would only produce an 11,000
square km char area.     Even if the meteor does not radiate much, then the
full energy will be at impact, and the crater itself will be elongated, and
thus the damage area will be larger.

Ignoring the effect of gravity increasing the angle of incidence upon
approach, the  proportion of meteors having a glide slope greater than 1/10
is roughly sin((Pi/2) - arctan(1/10))^2 = .99, so the vast majority of
meteors impacting earth should have a glide slope larger than 1:10.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [OT]Likely Lichen . . .
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At 9:51 PM 3/22/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
> . . . is killing the elk:
>
>http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1850&u=/cpress/20040322/ca_pr_on
>_sc/elk_deaths_6&printer=1
>
>(Not about Mars)


Only logical explanation is that some of the elk (the unaffected) are from
Mars.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 04:20:22 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [OT]Likely Lichen . . .
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At 06:09 pm 22-03-04 -0900, you wrote:
>At 9:51 PM 3/22/4, Terry Blanton wrote:
>> . . . is killing the elk:
>>
>>http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1850&u=/cpress/20040322/ca_pr_on
>>_sc/elk_deaths_6&printer=1
>>
>>(Not about Mars)
>
>
>Only logical explanation is that some of the elk (the unaffected) are from
>Mars.  8^)
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          


Little green elk, presumably <g>

Cheers

Frank grimer

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From: "explorecraft" <pariah explorecraft.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: NASA announcement Accepting Velikovsky's Mars
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:40:37 +0700
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Or Not... ...you think?

A formerly wet planet with massively long-lived oceans
 as well as a respectable atmosphere that just vanished
 one fine day?
 Littered with sulfurous remnants of venusian debris?

Probably not, but the truth is out there....


From:  http://www.unmuseum.org/velikov.htm


Isaac Asimov, who referred to Velikovsky's theories
 as a type of "exoheresy" wrote:

 "For one thing Velikfovskianism, and indeed,
 any exoheretical view that becomes prominent enough
 to force itself on science,
 acts to puncture scientific complacency-and that is good.
 An exoheresy may cause scientists...



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, 2004 March 23 09:09
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: Mars announcement tomorrow
>
>
> Tune your browsers into
>
> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/
>
> at about 1:45pm EST tomorow and grab a thread before they're
> all eaten.
>
> K.
>
> PS Some more linkz
>
> http://www.ascribe.org/cgi-bin/spew4th.pl?ascribeid=20040322.11250
5&time=12%
2008%20PST&year=2004&public=1

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&s
id=888&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Sorry for the breaking. Anyone know a mail client neutral method
of preventing this? I've tried the <> and >< trick and neither
works.


-----Original Message-----
From: SnowDog [mailto:SnowDog GoldDirectory.com]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 8:25 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mars announcement tomorrow


> I caught something on the Fox News scrolling text that NASA will be making
> an announcement tomorrow -- 3/23 -- about a major scientific finding on
> Mars..
>
>  Well, they can't be dealing with water, can they? -- they've already hit
> that. So, what will it be????

Report of the Announcement:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/opportunity_announcement_040322.html

Craig Haynie




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 22 23:12:50 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [OT]Likely Lichen . . .
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At 7:20 PM 3/22/4, Grimer wrote:

>Little green elk, presumably <g>

Indeed, the pulsating LGE (little green elk), sometimes here, sometimes
not, kind of both here and not at the same time, yet still pulsating in
both places.  Somewhat like quantum cats, except not just live and not
live, but rather here and on Mars, until sampled that is!  Mmmmmmm
elllllllk! Yummy!  Oooops, that's moooooose!  Yummmmmy!  Mooooose!
Alaskans say that 12,000 wolves can't all be wrong about that!  8^)

That brings back memories about when pulsars were discovered.  They called
them LGMs (little green men).  Who could imagine at that time a star that
could pulse in a matter of seconds.  How far we have come.  How far we have
to go.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: U.S. DoE Will Review 15-Years of  "Cold Fusion" Excess       Heat and 	
 NuclearEvidence
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At 11:39 AM 3/22/4, Edmund Storms wrote:

>Horace, I wonder what you mean by "sufficient replication work".  How much is
>sufficient and sufficient for what purpose?  If the intent is to convince a
>skeptic who does not trust calorimetry, then no amount would be "sufficient".
>If the intent is to explore the important variables to see if these variables
>are sufficiently well understood to make the effect work at another
>laboratory, then this has been done many times.  Granted, not all aspects of
>what has been observed have been replicated.  Also, some attempts fail
>occasionally.  But are these "sufficient" reasons to think that a real novel
>phenomenon has not been discovered?


The answer depends upon the audience.  You seem to be approaching this
issue as science as usual, which is completely understandable.   As one who
is accomplished in the field, and to a large extent aquainted with the work
of your collegues, and to some extent aqainted with those collegues in
person, you seem to be treating the situation as science as normal.  You
know the anamolies are real.  You trust the work of your collegues.   Cold
fusion, LENR, is not science as normal.  It is, if not at minimum
completely foreign to many scientists, it is anathema.  It is to the
general scientific audience, in the words of Carl Sagan, an extraordinary
claim requiring extraordinary proof.

You must admit, and I think you have, that any replications which have
occurred have not been exact, and in fact have been limited in quality by
both cost and therefore the ability to refine and make exact.  For the
audience at hand, there has not been sufficient replication work in the
field, independent work at differing locations by differing teams.  there
has not been enough true replication, without either "ego modifications" or
the corner cutting necessitated by highly limited budgets.
Incontrovertable proof is required of at least one nuclear anomaly worth
funding for rigorous scientific investigation.



>I suggest support should not be directed toward replication.  The issue now is
>to learn how to amplify the effect so that commercial heat can be produced.
>This means that the known variables need to be explored, which will frequently
>produce negative results.  Such negative results are very valuable because
>they show the negative limits of the variables.  Once the negative limits are
>known, the direction required to produce positive becomes obvious.


This is so true, in the traditional scientific sense.  However, the issue
at hand is not in the realm of traditional science.  Far from it.  We are
indeed confronted with evidence for a pardigm shift in theory, and to many
scientists this is not palatable.


>Being the pessimist that I have revealed myself to be, I predict that most
>government funding will be controlled by the skeptics.  Because they believe
>the effect is nonsense, they will give money to people who will reinforce this
>conclusion.  Only occasionally will some good work be done that will slowly
>change the attitude, while a lot of money and time will be wasted.


Agreed!  This is the most likely outcome.  However, being aware of the
probable outcome is in itself an empowering position.  Therefore, if things
progress far enough, a focus must be maintained upon the process of
selection of those who will make any allocations of resources.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Damadian gets Prize for MRI...business.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/science/23PRIZ.html

<<<
NYT article.

Denied Nobel for M.R.I., He Wins Another Prize

By KENNETH CHANG

Published: March 23, 2004

Last fall, Dr. Raymond V. Damadian was denied a Nobel Prize for his role in 
the development of magnetic resonance imaging. But he won a consolation prize 
last week, when the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia recognized his business 
acumen in making the idea profitable.

Dr. Damadian, the president of Fonar Inc. of Melville, N.Y., a manufacturer 
of M.R.I. machines, complained loudly and publicly after the Nobel Prize in 
Medicine last year, recognizing "discoveries concerning magnetic resonance 
imaging," went to Dr. Paul C. Lauterbur of the University of Illinois and Sir Peter 
Mansfield of the University of Nottingham in England.>>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><A HREF=3D"http://www.nytimes.com/2=
004/03/23/science/23PRIZ.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/science/23P=
RIZ.html</A><BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;&lt;<BR>
NYT article.<BR>
<BR>
Denied Nobel for M.R.I., He Wins Another Prize<BR>
<BR>
By KENNETH CHANG</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BA=
CKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A=
rial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
><IMG  SRC=3D"http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/misc/spacer.gif" WIDTH=3D"=
1" HEIGHT=3D"5" BORDER=3D"0" DATASIZE=3D"45"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
>Published: March 23, 2004<BR>
<BR>
Last fall, Dr. Raymond V. Damadian was denied a Nobel Prize for his role in=20=
the development of magnetic resonance imaging. But he won a consolation priz=
e last week, when the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia recognized his busi=
ness acumen in making the idea profitable.<BR>
<BR>
Dr. Damadian, the president of Fonar Inc. of Melville, N.Y., a manufacturer=20=
of M.R.I. machines, complained loudly and publicly after the Nobel Prize in=20=
Medicine last year, recognizing "discoveries concerning magnetic resonance i=
maging," went to Dr. Paul C. Lauterbur of the University of Illinois and Sir=
 Peter Mansfield of the University of Nottingham in England.&gt;&gt;</FONT><=
/HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 23 04:49:21 2004
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Dr. Kimball's "Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS)" article:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/R/ROS.html

And:

http://www.astaxanthin.org/oxidation.htm

Both articles seem to offer a possible explanation of "O-U" in electrolysis cells, if
stray atmospheric or electrons from equipment ground "static electricity", enter into
the electrolysis process.

Regards,

Frederick




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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>


> Dr. Kimball's "Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS)" article:
>
> http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/R/ROS.html
>
> And:
>
> http://www.astaxanthin.org/oxidation.htm
>
> Both articles seem to offer a possible explanation of "O-U" in
electrolysis cells, if
> stray atmospheric or electrons from equipment ground "static electricity",
enter into
> the electrolysis process.

[Equipment ground "static electricity"] is a confusion of terms. Static
electricity is by definition static, not current, and associated with
insulators, not wet conductive electrolytic cells. "OU" in electrolytic
cells is associated with heat production, transmutation, and nuclear "ash",
which are not produced by the cited reactions. "Stray atomspheric electrons"
get thoroughly grounded by the wet conductive environment of electrolytic
cells.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 23 08:39:59 2004
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Mike,

You wrote, " 'Stray atomspheric electrons' get thoroughly grounded by the wet conductive environment of electrolytic cells."

Although what you say is standard textbook logic, let me throw out another possibility. (you may correctly suspect from the length of this post, that I was lying-in-wait for just this kind of segue <G>)

Lets begin with the arc discharge invention of Dr. Peter Graneau, which is said by him to convert chemical bond energy into kinetic energy. One problem with that explanation is that the energy dynamics of the experiment make it clearly OU, but the thermodynamics are clouded by hydrogen bonding issues and the type of water used, which is natural rain water. It is not easy to write Graneau off as some misinformed free-energy nut. The important question then is where does the excess energy come from? This does not look like measurement error to me but the fact that 'rain water' or some equivalent, must be used in the arc discharge is a critical issue.

The possibilities for free energy include the same variations of many experiments that are discussed on vortex, either:
1) cold fusion (but where is the ash?)
2) the hydrino (but where is the catalyst or the EUV?)
3) ZPE by way of some QM interaction like tunneling, but QM reactions are low probability

but in addition, there is:

4) a higher energy metastable state that exists in certain types of water that could be related to the capture of 'atmospheric electrons' within the natural water icosahedron.

Bond breaking always requires energy input, of course. Otherwise everything would fall apart all by itself. Covalent bond-making releases lots of energy and requires lots of energy input, but in the case of hydrogen bonding, the thermodynamics are distinctly different. While the molecular movements within liquid water require the constant breaking and reorganization of individual hydrogen bonds on a picosecond timescale, the process must necessarily be nearly lossless, due to the enormous "transaction volume." Some chemists will tell you that the formula for water, on this time scale, looks more like H1.6O than H2O.

The instantaneous degree of hydrogen-bonding is surprisingly only slightly higher (95%) at about 0°C than at 100°C (85%).  Therefore in this case, there is temperature-dependent competition between the ordering effects of hydrogen-bonding and disordering kinetic effects. If the time-averaged hydrogen-bonded network possesses a degree of structural order, then there is the potential for some enthalpy to be available when that is massively phase-disrupted. Therefore it might also be correct to say that hydrogen bond breaking always requires energy input, but not necessarily *net* energy input. However, this could not account for the COP of 2 that Graneau has found unless there is also an ingrained but hidden source of metastability.

There is a natural tendency for all "systems" to end at the lowest free energy state (Gibbs free energy...actually a restatement of the  2ndLaw).  And some energy can be released after the hydrogen bond is broken even though it may also require some energy to break the bond - but that bond-breaking energy can be supplied in whole or in part by a captured electron, if the proper geometry is present.

This geometry may exist naturally because water is unique in that it *should be a gas* (looking at its gaseous constituents). The reason for this is indeed *geometric* and it relates to a natural "favored" structure and exact dimension, which is (not coincidentally) the same as the Casimir geometry. 

Consider that the thermodynamic rationale for the formation of interfacial water vapor is that the loss of hydrogen bonds at the surface increases the enthalpy in the gas phase, so necessitating the water molecules to compensate by doing pressure-volume work, i.e. the network expands to form lower-density water with higher entropy. I suspect that hydrogen bonding itself can vacillate between  metastable states, and when an aqueous electron is present, hydrogen bonded structures can provide a source of free-energy that way. But the energy of formation of hydrogen bonds is only 2.3 kJ/g which is relatively insignificant when we are looking for substantial free energy COP >2. 

Let's just consider another kind of metastable state.  Actually this explanation is much easier to shoehorn into conventional physics than any of the other choices for OU, but is there any justification for it? Fred says that the metastable state should be one in which some of the electrons of the water molecules are trapped in a "potential well" as they are raised to higher energy levels by incident photons (sunlight), but they can subsequently be released from this state by "agitation" like an arc discharge arising in the over-unity experiments, or cavitation and sonoluminescence, for instance, thus releasing energy (as heat) when they are "stimulated" to drop from this energy trap. 

This explanation actually ties into a previous post about fluorescence and the Forster radius. That active electron in fluorescence is trapped within (actually AROUND) the 280 molecule icosahedron that comprises the p-solid content of rainwater. The best fluorescence performance is found in structures at 2-10 nm which includes many crystals, some plasma inter-ionic distances, and of course, molecular diameters of certain macromolecules such as polymers, AND also the 280 molecule water icsoahedron, with its diameter of 3 nm. This cluster can be seen at:
http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html

It is no accident that this 2-10 nm Forster radius includes the de Broglie wavelength of thermalized aqueous electrons of the type one might expect to find as free electrons in the atmosphere. Nor is it any accident that the water icosahedron can contain one or more charged species, but yet appear "neutral," due to slight polar shifting in the 280 molecule structure, or more likely due to the coincident capture of free protons.

When injected by Graneau's high voltage capacitor discharge of 39.8 Joules, normal rainwater is accelerated into a cold fog that loses about 31.2 Joules of low-grade heat and a comparable amount (29.2 Joules) in fog kinetic energy output. As reported in the Journal of Plasma Physics, the output energy thus exceeds the input energy by about 100% creating a 2-to-1 overunity condition despite using high grade energy (electricity) to produce low grade energy (heat). A *net* OU producer of high grade energy would require a COP of at least 4-5, given Carnot normal conversion limitations. Perhaps Graneau thinks this is within the realm of possibility.

But we must ask, how could shielded trapped electrons/protons in rainwater provide the energy necessary for a COP of 2 ? And if so, how much net energy is available on a per liter basis?  Electron transfer occurs in every redox reaction. This process proceeds by an electron tunneling from the donor to the acceptor site, just as in fluorescence. When electron transfer reactions occur in the aqueous phase, in which the redox sites are strongly solvated, the reaction is tightly coupled to the motions of the solvent molecules and their overall structural confinement. Therein lies one factor suggesting that cold water or ice may be more active in QM terms. Strong quantum mechanical effects often dominate in these fluorescent-like systems. 

A mole of rainwater, about 18 grams might contain 10^21 metastable icosahedrons. If every one were fully "loaded" with one free proton and one free electron, which will combine with an energy of 13.6 eV when strongly "agitated" then that might add about 4 kJ/g, (if my calculations are correct) but unfortunately, this is a long way off from being able to use water alone as a fuel....For that to occur, one would have to either further pretreat the metastable rainwater electrochemically to create a substantial amount of additional short-lived chemicals...or as mentioned earlier, utilize both of the two complementary factors at work in explosion dynamics: upshifting the time-denominated force to produce OU. 

I believe that Graneau has found free energy by electrolyzing rain water that contains natural free electrons. These experiments portend a conversion scheme, which I don't want to get into now, but requiring some hydrocarbon or other active component.  Again I would add that a KEY factor in all of the bona fide claims that I have seen for water-fuel anomalies is that the electrolysis or discharge cell is designed around *air-flow* through the cell itself or else water which has been exposed to lots of air flow (rain water). This suggests that we are dealing with both efficient water-splitting and water super-oxidation - and that the real fuel is not hydrogen per se, nor even Brown's gas, but an assortment of short-lived hydroxyl intermediaries. All demanding the presence of ROS and the presence of atmospheric free-electrons.

I think there is enough anecdotal evidence for water-fuel anomalies in the available literature to entice the committed free-energy experimenter to go forward with efforts, despite not being able to say where the OU could be coming from. Undoubtedly it would be helpful to have some glint of this, but the bottom line question for the experimenter wishing to exploit this is, are the potential rewards for success worth the admittedly small possibility that someone who didn't "know better" has really stumbled on the answer many years ago.

With apologies for the complexity of the above posting,

Jones





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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K System
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Subject: Re: U.S. DoE Will Review 15-Years of  "Cold Fusion" Excess       Heat 
 and 	NuclearEvidence
References: <v01530500bc85a2353ed5 [12.21.209.35]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 11:39 AM 3/22/4, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >Horace, I wonder what you mean by "sufficient replication work".  How much is
> >sufficient and sufficient for what purpose?  If the intent is to convince a
> >skeptic who does not trust calorimetry, then no amount would be "sufficient".
> >If the intent is to explore the important variables to see if these variables
> >are sufficiently well understood to make the effect work at another
> >laboratory, then this has been done many times.  Granted, not all aspects of
> >what has been observed have been replicated.  Also, some attempts fail
> >occasionally.  But are these "sufficient" reasons to think that a real novel
> >phenomenon has not been discovered?
>
> The answer depends upon the audience.  You seem to be approaching this
> issue as science as usual, which is completely understandable.   As one who
> is accomplished in the field, and to a large extent aquainted with the work
> of your collegues, and to some extent aqainted with those collegues in
> person, you seem to be treating the situation as science as normal.  You
> know the anamolies are real.  You trust the work of your collegues.   Cold
> fusion, LENR, is not science as normal.  It is, if not at minimum
> completely foreign to many scientists, it is anathema.  It is to the
> general scientific audience, in the words of Carl Sagan, an extraordinary
> claim requiring extraordinary proof.

You got my number.  I admit I'm guilty of taking the scientific approach.
Nevertheless, I also agree with your other point, that "normal" people are not
influenced by the scientific approach.  They instead need to be persuaded by
methods used by advertisers and politicians.  Nevertheless, in matters of science,
in the end only the rules of science will carry the day.  Sooner or later the
demonstrations will have to achieve such obvious power that even a moron can
believe.  Obviously, it takes more than a moron to believe simple replications.
If this were not true, scientists would have long ago accepted the phenomenon.

>
>
> You must admit, and I think you have, that any replications which have
> occurred have not been exact, and in fact have been limited in quality by
> both cost and therefore the ability to refine and make exact.  For the
> audience at hand, there has not been sufficient replication work in the
> field, independent work at differing locations by differing teams.  there
> has not been enough true replication, without either "ego modifications" or
> the corner cutting necessitated by highly limited budgets.
> Incontrovertable proof is required of at least one nuclear anomaly worth
> funding for rigorous scientific investigation.

All replication suffers from the limitations you describe.  The only reason that
you can get the same answer as I do when we run the same experiment is because the
parameter space happens to be so big that we each have fallen within the active
region, sometimes by design and sometimes by accident.  Two experiments are seldom
done exactly the same, even by the same experimenter.  This situation is improved
by using modern techniques, but only when the boundaries of parameter space are
well known.  Unfortunately, the boundaries of parameter space for LENR are not
well known.

>
>
> >I suggest support should not be directed toward replication.  The issue now is
> >to learn how to amplify the effect so that commercial heat can be produced.
> >This means that the known variables need to be explored, which will frequently
> >produce negative results.  Such negative results are very valuable because
> >they show the negative limits of the variables.  Once the negative limits are
> >known, the direction required to produce positive becomes obvious.
>
> This is so true, in the traditional scientific sense.  However, the issue
> at hand is not in the realm of traditional science.  Far from it.  We are
> indeed confronted with evidence for a pardigm shift in theory, and to many
> scientists this is not palatable.

Very true.  However, this problem keeps coming up in science and would seem to be
a natural, but frustrating, aspect of normal science.  The past examples always
gained acceptance by beating the skeptics over the head with facts.  Sooner or
later the skeptics give up.  The CF skeptics are now starting to weaken.

>
>
> >Being the pessimist that I have revealed myself to be, I predict that most
> >government funding will be controlled by the skeptics.  Because they believe
> >the effect is nonsense, they will give money to people who will reinforce this
> >conclusion.  Only occasionally will some good work be done that will slowly
> >change the attitude, while a lot of money and time will be wasted.
>
> Agreed!  This is the most likely outcome.  However, being aware of the
> probable outcome is in itself an empowering position.  Therefore, if things
> progress far enough, a focus must be maintained upon the process of
> selection of those who will make any allocations of resources.

I hope people of good intentions have the power and influence in this
administration to do as you suggest.  Unfortunately, other examples of decisions
being made based on selfish self-interest do not give a person much hope that a
rational approach will be used here.

Regards,
Ed

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 23 09:30:07 2004
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Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:27:47 +0000
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From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Superoxide Anions and Over-Unity Electrolysis Cells?
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At 08:38 am 23-03-04 -0800, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>You wrote, " 'Stray atomspheric electrons' get thoroughly grounded by the wet conductive environment of electrolytic cells."
>
>Although what you say is standard textbook logic, let me throw out another possibility. (you may correctly suspect from the length of this post, that I was lying-in-wait for just this kind of segue <G>)
>
>Lets begin with the arc discharge invention of Dr. Peter Graneau, which is said by him to convert chemical bond energy into kinetic energy. One problem with that explanation is that the energy dynamics of the experiment make it clearly OU, but the thermodynamics are clouded by hydrogen bonding issues and the type of water used, which is natural rain water. It is not easy to write Graneau off as some misinformed free-energy nut. The important question then is where does the excess energy come from? This does not look like measurement error to me but the fact that 'rain water' or some equivalent, must be used in the arc discharge is a critical issue.
>
>The possibilities for free energy include the same variations of many experiments that are discussed on vortex, either:
>1) cold fusion (but where is the ash?)
>2) the hydrino (but where is the catalyst or the EUV?)
>3) ZPE by way of some QM interaction like tunneling, but QM reactions are low probability
>
>but in addition, there is:
>
>4) a higher energy metastable state that exists in certain types of water that could be related to the capture of 'atmospheric electrons' within the natural water icosahedron.
>
>Bond breaking always requires energy input, of course. Otherwise everything would fall apart all by itself. Covalent bond-making releases lots of energy and requires lots of energy input, but in the case of hydrogen bonding, the thermodynamics are distinctly different. While the molecular movements within liquid water require the constant breaking and reorganization of individual hydrogen bonds on a picosecond timescale, the process must necessarily be nearly lossless, due to the enormous "transaction volume." Some chemists will tell you that the formula for water, on this time scale, looks more like H1.6O than H2O.
>
>The instantaneous degree of hydrogen-bonding is surprisingly only slightly higher (95%) at about 0°C than at 100°C (85%).  Therefore in this case, there is temperature-dependent competition between the ordering effects of hydrogen-bonding and disordering kinetic effects. If the time-averaged hydrogen-bonded network possesses a degree of structural order, then there is the potential for some enthalpy to be available when that is massively phase-disrupted. Therefore it might also be correct to say that hydrogen bond breaking always requires energy input, but not necessarily *net* energy input. However, this could not account for the COP of 2 that Graneau has found unless there is also an ingrained but hidden source of metastability.
>
>There is a natural tendency for all "systems" to end at the lowest free energy state (Gibbs free energy...actually a restatement of the  2ndLaw).  And some energy can be released after the hydrogen bond is broken even though it may also require some energy to break the bond - but that bond-breaking energy can be supplied in whole or in part by a captured electron, if the proper geometry is present.
>
>This geometry may exist naturally because water is unique in that it *should be a gas* (looking at its gaseous constituents). The reason for this is indeed *geometric* and it relates to a natural "favored" structure and exact dimension, which is (not coincidentally) the same as the Casimir geometry. 
>
>Consider that the thermodynamic rationale for the formation of interfacial water vapor is that the loss of hydrogen bonds at the surface increases the enthalpy in the gas phase, so necessitating the water molecules to compensate by doing pressure-volume work, i.e. the network expands to form lower-density water with higher entropy. I suspect that hydrogen bonding itself can vacillate between  metastable states, and when an aqueous electron is present, hydrogen bonded structures can provide a source of free-energy that way. But the energy of formation of hydrogen bonds is only 2.3 kJ/g which is relatively insignificant when we are looking for substantial free energy COP >2. 
>
>Let's just consider another kind of metastable state.  Actually this explanation is much easier to shoehorn into conventional physics than any of the other choices for OU, but is there any justification for it? Fred says that the metastable state should be one in which some of the electrons of the water molecules are trapped in a "potential well" as they are raised to higher energy levels by incident photons (sunlight), but they can subsequently be released from this state by "agitation" like an arc discharge arising in the over-unity experiments, or cavitation and sonoluminescence, for instance, thus releasing energy (as heat) when they are "stimulated" to drop from this energy trap. 
>
>This explanation actually ties into a previous post about fluorescence and the Forster radius. That active electron in fluorescence is trapped within (actually AROUND) the 280 molecule icosahedron that comprises the p-solid content of rainwater. The best fluorescence performance is found in structures at 2-10 nm which includes many crystals, some plasma inter-ionic distances, and of course, molecular diameters of certain macromolecules such as polymers, AND also the 280 molecule water icsoahedron, with its diameter of 3 nm. This cluster can be seen at:
>http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html
>
>It is no accident that this 2-10 nm Forster radius includes the de Broglie wavelength of thermalized aqueous electrons of the type one might expect to find as free electrons in the atmosphere. Nor is it any accident that the water icosahedron can contain one or more charged species, but yet appear "neutral," due to slight polar shifting in the 280 molecule structure, or more likely due to the coincident capture of free protons.
>
>When injected by Graneau's high voltage capacitor discharge of 39.8 Joules, normal rainwater is accelerated into a cold fog that loses about 31.2 Joules of low-grade heat and a comparable amount (29.2 Joules) in fog kinetic energy output. As reported in the Journal of Plasma Physics, the output energy thus exceeds the input energy by about 100% creating a 2-to-1 overunity condition despite using high grade energy (electricity) to produce low grade energy (heat). A *net* OU producer of high grade energy would require a COP of at least 4-5, given Carnot normal conversion limitations. Perhaps Graneau thinks this is within the realm of possibility.
>
>But we must ask, how could shielded trapped electrons/protons in rainwater provide the energy necessary for a COP of 2 ? And if so, how much net energy is available on a per liter basis?  Electron transfer occurs in every redox reaction. This process proceeds by an electron tunneling from the donor to the acceptor site, just as in fluorescence. When electron transfer reactions occur in the aqueous phase, in which the redox sites are strongly solvated, the reaction is tightly coupled to the motions of the solvent molecules and their overall structural confinement. Therein lies one factor suggesting that cold water or ice may be more active in QM terms. Strong quantum mechanical effects often dominate in these fluorescent-like systems. 
>
>A mole of rainwater, about 18 grams might contain 10^21 metastable icosahedrons. If every one were fully "loaded" with one free proton and one free electron, which will combine with an energy of 13.6 eV when strongly "agitated" then that might add about 4 kJ/g, (if my calculations are correct) but unfortunately, this is a long way off from being able to use water alone as a fuel....For that to occur, one would have to either further pretreat the metastable rainwater electrochemically to create a substantial amount of additional short-lived chemicals...or as mentioned earlier, utilize both of the two complementary factors at work in explosion dynamics: upshifting the time-denominated force to produce OU. 
>
>I believe that Graneau has found free energy by electrolyzing rain water that contains natural free electrons. These experiments portend a conversion scheme, which I don't want to get into now, but requiring some hydrocarbon or other active component.  Again I would add that a KEY factor in all of the bona fide claims that I have seen for water-fuel anomalies is that the electrolysis or discharge cell is designed around *air-flow* through the cell itself or else water which has been exposed to lots of air flow (rain water). This suggests that we are dealing with both efficient water-splitting and water super-oxidation - and that the real fuel is not hydrogen per se, nor even Brown's gas, but an assortment of short-lived hydroxyl intermediaries. All demanding the presence of ROS and the presence of atmospheric free-electrons.
>
>I think there is enough anecdotal evidence for water-fuel anomalies in the available literature to entice the committed free-energy experimenter to go forward with efforts, despite not being able to say where the OU could be coming from. Undoubtedly it would be helpful to have some glint of this, but the bottom line question for the experimenter wishing to exploit this is, are the potential rewards for success worth the admittedly small possibility that someone who didn't "know better" has really stumbled on the answer many years ago.
>
>With apologies for the complexity of the above posting,
>
>Jones


I'm no chemist but that all sounds bloody good to me old bean. ;^)
Mind you - I had to look up segue.  :-(

se·gue    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sgw, sgw)
     intr.v. se·gued, se·gue·ing, se·gues 
     Music. To make a transition directly from one section or theme to another. 
     To move smoothly and unhesitatingly from one state, condition, situation,     
     or element to another: “Daylight segued into dusk” (Susan Dworski). 

Cheers

Frank Grimer 

Err! my spelling checker didn't recognise it but it accepted segu and 
there ain't no such word - [stupid  %**#! spell checker!  :-(  ]


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 23 09:47:57 2004
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:55:09 -0600
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Subject: RE: Asteroid flyby tonight
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How does the angle of incidence affect the amount of energy that the 
asteroid would release?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 23 11:25:35 2004
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Opportunity's rocks are sedimentary and formed under water.  Duh.

They *did* use the 'F' word:  "If you want to look for fossils on Mars, 
this is where to look." 

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From: Baronvolsung aol.com
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Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:35:56 EST
Subject: Engineering Vortex Energy Fields In Crystals To Improve Solar Panel Efficiency
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-------------------------------1080084956
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Engineering Vortex Energy Fields In Crystals To Improve Solar Panel Efficiency

Low band gap materials can receive more solar energy since the band gap is 
so low, but the band gap also determines the strength or voltage and if it is 
low, then what we make up in extra current we lose by having small voltage, 
since power is voltage times
current.  We can engineer and change the ranges of the current vortex in 
relation to magnetic field strength and the voltage potential vortex in relation 
to electric field strength to obtain optimal power output in any low band gap 
material by manipulating the energy flow vortex properties with engineered 
nanotech and biochemical circuits; and engineered hybrid nanotech biochemical 
properties of the material.   Changing the conductivity properties in a material 
changes the current vortex range, while changing the dielectric properties of 
the materials changes the voltage potential vortex range.  Nanotech or 
biochemical artificially engineered magnetic or electric field circuits and hybrid 
materials etched into or placed into a material can also change the relation 
between the magnetic field and the electrical field which indirectly changes the 
current or voltage vortexes.  We can also engineer and convert energy fields 
and monopolar particles which have one pole hidden in the vortex such as 
electrons into antiparticles such as positrons by changing the direction of the field 
vortex swirl, to cancel out the effect of the field on other fields. 

For instance a superconductor placed into a solar crystal will improve the 
conductivity and the current vortex range.  A superdielectric placed into a 
solar crystal will improve the dielectric properties and the voltage range.  
Magnetic monopoles where the other pole is locked up inside of the vortex 
oscillation, do not exist in a vacuum, but may be engineered into a material which is 
not in a vacuum such as a crystal.  Electric and magnetic monopoles, and 
antiparticles engineered into a crystal can change and cancel out magnetic and 
electric field effects in a crystal to change the current and voltage ranges.  

Different types of crystal materials engineered into a hybrid crystal can 
perform different functions.  A trilithium crystal engineered into a basic sand 
crystal can store energy in the crystal as a trilithium hydrogen battery.  
Different types of crystal materials which resonate at different frequencies can 
be used to trap light and electrical energy into a band to create a transistor 
or logical "and" and "or" gate to be used to process the energy in a hybrid 
crystal.  We can use a series of crystal energy transistors as described above 
to transmute energy from one form into another and from one frequency into 
another. We can transform solar light and laser fiber optical light into 
electrical energy by using a crystal energy transistor which has an ideal resonance to 
preserve the efficiency of the energy transfer. We can use fiber optical lines 
in homes to transfer solar and laser energy into a home, and place a simple 
energy transfer crystal at the plug outlets to transfer the energy into 
electrical energy to be used in older electrical circuits until new light and laser 
fiber optical and crystal circuits are used in appliances. 

We should be able to use ordinary sand made into glass to create the basic 
crystal base in the form of a dodecahedron and then we can engineer in other 
crystal components in nanotech and biochemical hybrid crystal structures and 
materials which receive all of the wavelengths of light; and then engineer in a 
series of super conductors, superdielectrics, electrical and magnetic monopoles, 
antiparticles, and microbiochemical energy circuits into macro energy field 
circuits that can transfer all of the wavelength's of light into laser light 
for fiber optical circuits or into electrical energy for electrical circuits to 
improve solar efficiency in solar panels.   Full spectrum solar and cosmic 
radiation panels made from engineered crystals made out of sand will also be 
inexpensive and easily made in any location, since sand is available most 
everywhere.  

The equations for electric and magnetic energies that may be placed in 
circuits to manipulate the power ratio dependent on the material band gap are stated 
below:

The integral of the Electric Field E from point a to b is minus the voltage.
The integral of the Magnetic Field H from point a to be is the current. 
The geometry of the magnetic field from north to south has the eddy current 
as a vortex in the center creating a sphere, and the geometry of the electric 
field from north to south has the potential vortex voltage in the center 
creating a sphere. 

B (Magnetic Induction) = u (magnetic field constant) * H (Magnetic Field).
D(Electric Displacement) = e (electric field constant) * E (Electric Field 
Strength)

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, 
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: 
www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>Engineering&nbsp;Vortex Energy Fields In Crystals To Improve Solar Pane=
l Efficiency</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Low band gap materials can receive more solar energy since the band gap=
 is </DIV>
<DIV>so low, but&nbsp;the band gap also determines the strength or voltage a=
nd if it is low, then what we make up in extra current we lose by having sma=
ll voltage, since power is voltage times</DIV>
<DIV>current.&nbsp;&nbsp;We can engineer and change&nbsp;the ranges of the c=
urrent vortex&nbsp;in relation to magnetic field strength and the voltage po=
tential vortex&nbsp;in relation to electric&nbsp;field strength&nbsp;to obta=
in optimal power output&nbsp;in any low band gap material by manipulating th=
e energy flow&nbsp;vortex properties with engineered nanotech and biochemica=
l circuits; and engineered&nbsp;hybrid nanotech biochemical properties of th=
e material.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Changing the conductivity properties in a mater=
ial&nbsp;changes the current vortex range, while&nbsp;changing the dielectri=
c properties of the materials&nbsp;changes the voltage potential vortex rang=
e.&nbsp; Nanotech or biochemical artificially engineered magnetic or electri=
c field circuits and hybrid materials etched into or placed into a material=20=
can also change the relation between the magnetic field and the electrical f=
ield which indirectly changes the current or voltage vortexes.&nbsp; We can=20=
also engineer and convert energy fields and monopolar&nbsp;particles which h=
ave&nbsp;one pole hidden in the vortex such as electrons&nbsp;into antiparti=
cles such as positrons by changing the direction of the field vortex swirl,=20=
to cancel out the effect of the field on other fields. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For instance a superconductor placed into a solar crystal will improve=20=
the conductivity and the current vortex range.&nbsp; A superdielectric place=
d into a solar crystal will improve the dielectric properties and the voltag=
e range.&nbsp; Magnetic monopoles where the other pole is locked up inside o=
f the vortex oscillation, do not exist in a vacuum, but may be engineered in=
to a material which is not in a vacuum such as a crystal.&nbsp; Electric and=
 magnetic monopoles, and antiparticles engineered into a crystal can change=20=
and cancel out magnetic and electric field effects in a crystal to change th=
e current and voltage ranges.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Different types of crystal materials engineered into a hybrid crystal c=
an perform different functions.&nbsp; A trilithium crystal engineered into a=
 basic sand crystal can store energy in the crystal as a&nbsp;trilithium hyd=
rogen battery.&nbsp; Different types of crystal materials which resonate at=20=
different frequencies can be used to trap light and electrical energy into a=
 band to create a transistor or logical "and" and "or" gate to be used to pr=
ocess the energy in a hybrid crystal.&nbsp; We can use a series of crystal e=
nergy transistors as described above&nbsp;to transmute energy from one form=20=
into another and from one frequency into another. We can transform solar lig=
ht and laser fiber optical light into electrical energy by using a crystal e=
nergy transistor which has an ideal resonance to preserve the efficiency of=20=
the energy transfer.&nbsp;We can use fiber optical lines in homes to transfe=
r solar and laser energy into a home, and place a simple energy transfer cry=
stal at the plug&nbsp;outlets to transfer the energy into electrical energy=20=
to be used in older electrical circuits until new light and laser fiber opti=
cal and crystal circuits are used in appliances. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We should be able to use ordinary sand&nbsp;made into&nbsp;glass to cre=
ate the basic&nbsp;crystal base in the&nbsp;form of a dodecahedron&nbsp;and=20=
then we can engineer in other crystal components in nanotech and biochemical=
 hybrid crystal structures and materials which receive all of the wavelength=
s of light; and then engineer in a series of super conductors, superdielectr=
ics, electrical and magnetic monopoles, antiparticles, and microbiochemical=20=
energy circuits into macro energy field circuits that can transfer all of th=
e wavelength's of light into laser light for fiber optical circuits or into=20=
electrical energy for electrical circuits to improve solar efficiency in sol=
ar panels.&nbsp;&nbsp; Full spectrum solar and cosmic radiation panels made=20=
from engineered crystals made out of sand will also be inexpensive and easil=
y made in any location, since sand is available most everywhere.&nbsp; </DIV=
>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The equations for electric and magnetic energies that may be placed in=20=
circuits to manipulate the power ratio dependent on the material band gap&nb=
sp;are stated below:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The&nbsp;integral of the Electric Field E from point a to b is minus th=
e voltage.</DIV>
<DIV>The&nbsp;integral of the Magnetic Field H from point a to be is the cur=
rent. </DIV>
<DIV>The geometry of the magnetic field&nbsp;from north to south&nbsp;has th=
e eddy&nbsp;current as a vortex in the center creating a sphere, and the geo=
metry of the electric field from north to south has the potential vortex vol=
tage in the center creating a sphere. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>B (Magnetic Induction) =3D u (magnetic field constant) * H (Magnetic Fi=
eld).</DIV>
<DIV>D(Electric Displacement) =3D e (electric field constant) * E (Electric=20=
Field Strength)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 PTSIZE=3D"10" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=
>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http://ww=
w.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dhttp://www.r=
hfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html">www.r=
hfweb.com\emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark, <BR>Email: <A tit=
le=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emai=
lform.html">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A>, Personal Web Page: <A title=
=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">ww=
w.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>New Age Production's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://ww=
w.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">www.rhfweb.com\new=
age</A><BR>Star Haven Community Services, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.co=
m/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh</A><BR>Radiation He=
alth Foundation Trust at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://ww=
w.rhfweb.com/">www.rhfweb.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1080084956--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 23 16:00:52 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 7:55 PM 3/22/4, thomas malloy wrote:
>How does the angle of incidence affect the amount of energy that the
>asteroid would release?


This seems like a trick question. 8^)

All the caluclations provided earlier assume only the mechanical energy due
to momentum gained by a meteor from approaching the earth.  Mechanical
energy is conserved, so there would be a fixed amount of energy expended
from any impact under that scenario, regardless of the angle of incidence.
That assumes actual impact, not a glancing blow of some kind, which would
be very unlikely anyway.

What varies due to the angle of incidence is the immediate kill zone size.
That increases as the angle of incidence increases, regardless of whether
the energy is expended in the atmosphere or in the surface impact.  By kill
zone I mean the area of death and distruction due to mechanical debris
impact or due to radiant energy.  Worse than the effect of the angle of
incidence for increasing kill zone area, per impact energy, is
fragmentation.  A 10 megaton TNT energy meteor split into ten 1 megaton TNT
parts in widely differing impact points has a much larger kill zone.

It seems unlikely to me that global extinction events would come from
immediate kill zones though.  Such extinctions have been hypothesised to
come from seconday effects, like shrouding the earth in dust and smoke.
Secondary effects might also be increased by a high angle of incidence, but
mostly it is the energy of the meteor that matters for those.

I seem to remember reading about some conjectures that Tunguska was a
nuclear event, the theory being either it was an exploding spacecraft or
somehow a comet impact with the atmosphere creating a fusion event.  That
kind of thing is way outside the scope of the calculations provided.   It
is also not necessary to explain the energy of the Tunguska impact, unless
there is evidence of radioactivity.  It might be necessary to explain the
tree fall pattern or burn patterns if those indicate a specific point in
the atmosphere where the blast occurred.  That would require a massive
fragmentation of a comet at a specific altitude to explain away the data by
kinetic energy.

I should note that the energy of an impact could be more than estimated,
due to the relative motion of the earth and the impacting body due to their
solar orbits.  I only used the 11.18 km/s escape velocity from earth to
estimate the impact energy.  This gives conservative numbers. The impact
velocity could be a lot higher.  The earth solar orbit speed is around 30
km/s.  A comet could approach at right angles to the orbit at a similar
speed, so the relative velocity would be about 42 km/s plus the 11 km/s
gained from gravity during the impact, giving 53 km/s.  Since energy is
proportional to speed squared, the energy per kg of meteor would be about
23 times that which I estimated.  This pretty much establishes reasonable
bounds on the energy though.  The original computation, with any typos
hopefully corrected, follows for convenience.

You can conservatively assume an ateroid will impact the earth at around
earth escape velocity (assuming of course the asteroid is not in earth
orbit and the earth is chasing it.)   Any higher initial relative velocity
simply means larger energy upon impact.  Escape velocity for earth is 11.18
km/s.  Density of rock Rho can be assumed to be about 3 times water or 3
g/cm^3 = 3000 kg/m^3.   The radius of the object is (100 ft/2) = 15.24 m.
The mass of the object m = rho (4/3) Pi (r)^3 = (4/3) * 3.14 * (3000
kg/m^3) * (15.24 m)^3 = 4.45x10^7 kg.  The energy is E = (1/2) m v^2 =
(1/2)(4.45x10^7 kg)(11.18 km/s)^2 = 2.78x10^15 J.  A kiloton of TNT = 4.184
x 10^12 J.  The energy is thus (2.78x10^15 J)/(4.184 x 10^12 J/kT) = 665
kilotons TNT.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 20:51:29 EST
Subject: Report on trip to the Navel Weppons Lab
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, JedRothwell@infinite-energy.com
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I drove to the Navel Weapons Lab on 23 March 04.  They knew I was coming.  I 
had no trouble getting in.    I had to check my camera at the gate.   I was 
allowed to take my audio tape recorder in.  They had a full house with about 30 
attendees.  Most of the attendees were from the Navel Weapons Lab.   There 
were a few more from industry.  Advanced Cooling Technologies and Orin 
Technologies were there.   I meet Mike Staker of the Army research Lab.  Mike and I had 
a good talk.  I gave Mike and many others a copy of my Zero Point Technologies 
CD.

David Nagel gave his talk. David was a former manager at the Weapons Lab.  
David Nagel, Peter Hegelsiein, Mike McKrubre, and Randy Heckman went to the DOE 
in November.  They met with Jim Decker at the DOE.  Randy Heckman knows the 
secretary of energy. The DOE agreered to do a study on the new energy processes. 
 David has a copy of my Zero Point Technologies CD.  I would like to put some 
audio clips of his comment on future versions of my CD.  He asked me to check 
with him first.

The talk was fast and contained little new (new to me at least) information.  
It appeared that for many this was there first exposure to what was going on. 
 He referenced Rothwell's LENTR web page.  I saw a few writing down the URL.

We will have wait what happens next.

Frank Znidarsic


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I drove to the Navel Weapons Lab on=
 23 March 04.&nbsp; They knew I was coming.&nbsp; I had no trouble getting i=
n.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I had to check my camera at the gate.&nbsp;&nbsp; I was=
 allowed to take my audio tape recorder in.&nbsp; They had a full house with=
 about 30 attendees.&nbsp; Most of the attendees were from the Navel Weapons=
 Lab.&nbsp;&nbsp; There were a few more from industry.&nbsp; Advanced Coolin=
g Technologies and Orin Technologies were there.&nbsp;&nbsp; I meet Mike Sta=
ker of the Army research Lab.&nbsp; Mike and I had a good talk.&nbsp; I gave=
 Mike and many others a copy of my Zero Point Technologies CD.<BR>
<BR>
David Nagel gave his talk. David was a former manager at the Weapons Lab.&nb=
sp; David Nagel, Peter Hegelsiein, Mike McKrubre, and Randy Heckman went to=20=
the DOE in November.&nbsp; They met with Jim Decker at the DOE.&nbsp; Randy=20=
Heckman knows the secretary of energy. The DOE agreered to do a study on the=
 new energy processes.&nbsp; David has a copy of my Zero Point Technologies=20=
CD.&nbsp; I would like to put some audio clips of his comment on future vers=
ions of my CD.&nbsp; He asked me to check with him first.<BR>
<BR>
The talk was fast and contained little new (new to me at least) information.=
&nbsp; It appeared that for many this was there first exposure to what was g=
oing on.&nbsp; He referenced Rothwell's LENTR web page.&nbsp; I saw a few wr=
iting down the URL.<BR>
<BR>
We will have wait what happens next.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:31:36 EST
Subject: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
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David Nagel asked Robert Park to keep an open mind.  Park replied that he 
would but not to the extent that his brain would fall out.

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">David Nagel asked Robert Park to ke=
ep an open mind.&nbsp; Park replied that he would but not to the extent that=
 his brain would fall out.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

--part1_129.3d61ac5e.2d924d08_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 23 19:10:54 2004
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Superoxide Anions and Over-Unity Electrolysis Cells?
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:08:09 -0500
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Jones wrote:


> Mike,
>
> You wrote, " 'Stray atomspheric electrons' get thoroughly grounded by the
wet conductive environment of electrolytic cells."
>
> Although what you say is standard textbook logic, let me throw out another
possibility. (you may correctly suspect from the length of this post, that I
was lying-in-wait for just this kind of segue <G>)

Happy to give you an excuse for an interesting essay. I am acquainted with
the Graneaus; in fact Peter invited me to join him in the bar after a
seminar organized by Gene Mallove in Manchester some years ago [others
joined in for a very interesting conversation]. I did not have all this in
mind in my casual response to 'static electricity', which was in quotes.

<snip>
> The possibilities for free energy include the same variations of many
experiments that are discussed on vortex, either:
> 1) cold fusion (but where is the ash?)

In low level experiments, a very careful setup is necessary to detect the
nuclear ash and distinguish it from environmental contamination: See Arata
and McKubre. The energy yield per atom is so high that little ash need be
produced to for measurable heat to be seen.

> 2) the hydrino (but where is the catalyst or the EUV?)

As Mills has shown, water itself can be a source of H and O++, which is a
catalyst. It is more or less efficiently produced by microwave fields in the
BLP experiments, but it does not follow that the reaction will not occur in
other environments, and contribute to an overall heat measurement. The EUV
can be weak under these circumstances, and VUV totally absorbed by water.

> 3) ZPE by way of some QM interaction like tunneling, but QM reactions are
low probability
>
> but in addition, there is:
>
> 4) a higher energy metastable state that exists in certain types of water
that could be related to the capture of 'atmospheric electrons' within the
natural water icosahedron.

A very interesting hypothesis.

<snip>

> I think there is enough anecdotal evidence for water-fuel anomalies in the
available literature to entice the committed free-energy experimenter to go
forward with efforts, despite not being able to say where the OU could be
coming from. Undoubtedly it would be helpful to have some glint of this, but
the bottom line question for the experimenter wishing to exploit this is,
are the potential rewards for success worth the admittedly small possibility
that someone who didn't "know better" has really stumbled on the answer many
years ago.
>
> With apologies for the complexity of the above posting,

A few details. Most CF electrolysis experiments are run with heavy water,
distilled, not with rainwater which may accumulate energy by the process the
Graneaus describe. The distilled D2O comes in sealed containers, so this
pretty well excludes the above suggestions as to energy processes. There
have been some indications of excess heat with light water, other than
Mills' BLP process. Further, excess heat is generated by gaseous infusion in
experiments by Case and McKubre.

There may certainly be more than one OU process once one starts to look, and
someday they may all be seen as different manifestations of some deeper
phenomenon we do not yet perceive. I don't think understanding is served by
denying the separate phenomena by implying that CF is 'really' BLP, or vice
versa.

Mike Carrell


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From: Baronvolsung aol.com
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Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:12:22 EST
Subject: Re: Superoxide Anions and Over-Unity Electrolysis Cells?
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In a message dated 3/23/2004 10:18:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
mikec snip.net writes:
[Equipment ground "static electricity"] is a confusion of terms. Static
electricity is by definition static, not current, and associated with
insulators, not wet conductive electrolytic cells. "OU" in electrolytic
cells is associated with heat production, transmutation, and nuclear "ash",
which are not produced by the cited reactions. "Stray atomspheric electrons"
get thoroughly grounded by the wet conductive environment of electrolytic
cells.
According to Constantin Meyl in his book scalar waves or vortex wave theory, 
static electricity is caused in air (dielectric or insulator) when the 
potential counter vortex which is voltage electricity exceeds the current magnetic 
vortex energy.  Counter vortex electrical voltage energy or scalar energy does 
exist in dielectrics or insulators, since the counter vortex electrical energy 
to a conductor of the magnetic current vortex is an insulator or dielectric.  
It is possible that over unity comes from the energy in the counter dielectric 
vortex voltage electrical energy that encircles the magnetic current vortex, 
when the dielectric vortex exceeds the current vortex.  This explains why rain 
water may have more energy in it than normal water, since it picks up the 
scalar wave voltage electrons in the air, which are excited by the Graneau 
discharge invention to create overunity energy. 


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, 
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: 
www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

-------------------------------1080097942
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 3/23/2004 10:18:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, mikec s=
nip.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>[Equipment ground "static electricity"] is a c=
onfusion of terms. Static<BR>electricity is by definition static, not curren=
t, and associated with<BR>insulators, not wet conductive electrolytic cells.=
 "OU" in electrolytic<BR>cells is associated with heat production, transmuta=
tion, and nuclear "ash",<BR>which are not produced by the cited reactions. "=
Stray atomspheric electrons"<BR>get thoroughly grounded by the wet conductiv=
e environment of electrolytic<BR>cells.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>According to Constantin Meyl in his book scalar waves or vortex wave th=
eory, static electricity is caused in air (dielectric or insulator) when the=
 potential counter vortex&nbsp;which is&nbsp;voltage electricity exceeds the=
 current magnetic vortex energy.&nbsp; Counter vortex electrical voltage ene=
rgy or scalar energy does exist in dielectrics or insulators, since the coun=
ter vortex electrical energy to a conductor of the magnetic current vortex i=
s an insulator or dielectric.&nbsp; It is possible that over unity comes fro=
m the energy in the counter dielectric vortex voltage electrical energy that=
 encircles the magnetic current vortex, when the dielectric vortex exceeds t=
he current vortex.&nbsp; This explains why rain water may have more energy i=
n it than normal water,&nbsp;since it picks up the scalar wave voltage elect=
rons in the air, which are excited by the Graneau discharge invention to cre=
ate overunity energy. </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 PTSIZE=3D"10" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=
><BR>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dhttp://w=
ww.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html">w=
ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark, <BR>Email: <A=
 title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/=
emailform.html">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A>, Personal Web Page: <A tit=
le=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">=
www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>New Age Production's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://=
www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">www.rhfweb.com\n=
ewage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Services, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.=
com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh</A><BR>Radiation=20=
Health Foundation Trust at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://=
www.rhfweb.com/">www.rhfweb.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1080097942--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 23 21:00:36 2004
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From: Steve Krivit <stevek dlsi.net>
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
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News at 10 ---Bob Park attends Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will fall 
out!

At 09:31 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>David Nagel asked Robert Park to keep an open mind.  Park replied that he 
>would but not to the extent that his brain would fall out.
>
>Frank Znidarsic

Thanks,

Steve 
--=====================_1130211000==.ALT
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<html>
<body>
News at 10 ---Bob Park attends Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will
fall out!<br><br>
At 09:31 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font size=2>David Nagel asked
Robert Park to keep an open mind.&nbsp; Park replied that he would but
not to the extent that his brain would fall out.<br><br>
Frank Znidarsic</font><font face="arial"> </blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Thanks,<br><br>
Steve</font></body>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 24 06:48:59 2004
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:49:28 EST
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
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In a message dated 3/24/04 12:01:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, stevek dlsi.net 
writes:


> News at 10 ---Bob Park attends Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will fall 
> out!
> 
> 

Clarification,  Bob Park was not at the NWL meeting.  this event happened at 
a prior meeting.  It was presented in Nagels talk.  I recorded this.  I see if 
Nagel will allow me to put this comment on my CD and ZPT page.

Frank 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/24/04 12:01:35=
 AM Eastern Standard Time, stevek dlsi.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">News at 10 ---Bob Park attends=20=
Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will fall out!<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Clarification,&nbsp; Bob Park was not at the NWL meeting.&nbsp; this event h=
appened at a prior meeting.&nbsp; It was presented in Nagels talk.&nbsp; I r=
ecorded this.&nbsp; I see if Nagel will allow me to put this comment on my C=
D and ZPT page.<BR>
<BR>
Frank </FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 24 08:26:14 2004
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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:30:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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On 3/24/04 12:04 AM, "Steve Krivit" <stevek dlsi.net> wrote:

> News at 10 ---Bob Park attends Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will fa=
ll
> out!
>=20
> At 09:31 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> David Nagel asked Robert Park to keep an open mind.  Park replied that h=
e
>> would but not to the extent that his brain would fall out.
>>=20
>> Frank Znidarsic=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Steve

It is quite clear that Park=B9s brain, though still encased in a thick skull,
has provably been malfunctioning for many years and is incapable of rationa=
l
thought on the matter of the basic structure of science.  It does not need
to fall out. It has done quite enough damage from the place in which it
currently resides.

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation=
)
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
        www.infinite-energy.com    editor infinite-energy.com
        603-485-4700  Fx: 603-485-4710


  

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Park's brain may fall out! &nbsp;NRL &nbsp;report cont.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>On 3/24/04 12:04 AM, &q=
uot;Steve Krivit&quot; &lt;stevek dlsi.net&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0p=
x'>News at 10 ---Bob Park attends Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will fa=
ll out!<BR>
<BR>
At 09:31 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0p=
x'>David Nagel asked Robert Park to keep an open mind. &nbsp;Park replied th=
at he would but not to the extent that his brain would fall out.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Ari=
al"> <BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verda=
na">Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Steve<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verda=
na"><BR>
<B>It is quite clear that Park&#8217;s brain, though still encased in a thi=
ck skull, has provably been malfunctioning for many years and is incapable o=
f rational thought on the matter of the basic structure of science. &nbsp;It=
 does not need to fall out. It has done quite enough damage from the place i=
n which it &nbsp;currently resides.<BR>
<BR>
</B></FONT></SPAN><B><FONT FACE=3D"Monaco"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9.0px'><TT>=
Dr. Eugene F. Mallove<BR>
</TT></SPAN></FONT></B><FONT FACE=3D"Monaco"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9.0px'><T=
T><H6>President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corpor=
ation)<BR>
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine<BR>
PO Box 2816<BR>
Concord, NH 03302-2816 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
</H6><B> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.infinite-energy.com =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;editor infinite-energy.com <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;603-485-4700 &nbsp;Fx: 603-=
485-4710<BR>
</B></TT></SPAN></FONT><B><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0p=
x'><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></B>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 24 11:04:49 2004
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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:04:38 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
From: Randy Souther <tinmachine earthlink.net>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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<HEAD><TITLE>Re: Park's brain may fall out! =A0NRL =A0report cont.</TITLE>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>A nice cold fusion article in the Salt Lake Tribune--interviews with S. =
Jones and others:</P>
<P>"Cold Fusion Research Isn't Frozen"</P>
<P><A href=3D"http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03232004/tuesday/tuesday.asp">=
http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03232004/tuesday/tuesday.asp</A></P>
<P>Randy</P></BODY><PRE>

</PRE>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 24 11:48:44 2004
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That is a pretty good article, isn't it? I see that Jones is up to his 
usually dirty tricks, and Huizenga cannot stop lying through his teeth. I 
zapped the following message to the reporter:


Greetings.

You quoted John Huizenga's comment about cold fusion papers: "They can't 
pass peer-review, that's the problem." That is false. Hundreds of cold 
fusion papers have passed peer review and have been published, some of them 
in the world's most distinguished journals of physics and chemistry. 
Several have appeared in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics (JJAP), 
which is the second most often cited journal in the world. The JJAP 
recently published a paper on a critical cold fusion breakthrough made at 
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries by Iwamura et al. See:

<http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYelementalaa.pdf>http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYelementalaa.pdf

Our web site features a bibliography of over 3,000 papers on cold fusion, 
alphabetical indices by title and author, and the full text of 300 papers 
in Acrobat format. See:

<http://lenr-canr.org/>http://lenr-canr.org/

- Jed Rothwell
Librarian
LENR-CANR.org
   


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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <00df01c410cc$c82a3a80$8680b341 computer>
Subject: Re: Superoxide Anions and Over-Unity Electrolysis Cells?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:11:30 -0800
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One more comment on the site that Fred forwarded yesterday. 

It has significant relevance to chemical overunity in any reaction where water, excess oxygen and electrical current are found to produce an energy anomaly.

 http://www.astaxanthin.org/oxidation.htm

I think that almost everyone on this forum who has a background with some degree of classical physics education, has been conditioned to believe that there is no such thing as chemical OU. Consequently, it is a common belief that if a reaction shows significant OU, then it must of necessity be either LENR, CANR, CF, or hydrino, etc... or measurement error.

This may not be the case. Here are some further thoughts on the likelihood that OU is available through chemistry alone, despite the fact that you were taught otherwise in university. It need not employ recourse to ZPE, which is equally controversial to LENR. Personally I believe that chemical OU does involve a Casimir-type geometry - which is arguably ZPE, but that is another issue. 

The key point is that the appearance of excess heat in many different kinds of experiments may not involve conversion of nuclear mass to energy at all... or even conversion of electron angular momentum into excess energy, but instead may involve a single common denominator. That common denominator is a reaction where a "bare proton" is allowed to stay bare for a long enough time span, and often enough, to attract whatever mass-energy is available from whatever extra-dimensional source. One really need not get more specific about the source of excess energy than that. 

And if you follow "hot fusion" and this hypothesis is correct, you may have already noticed this irony. If one could provide a loss-free containment structure for protons, eliminating Bremsstrahlung for instance, and using RTSC, then one would not need 'fusion' at all. The power density would be lower, but so what.

The bare proton seems to be the key to chemical overunity. It may operate like a 4-space antenna. We also beginning to get a grasp on the threshold numbers which are involved because water itself does have a lot of temporarily bare protons, which are not bare for long enough... until moderately stimulated. This stimulation process often involves the superoxidation of water, which is a bit counter-intuitive, until one looks at superoxidation itself as a kind of pseudo-reduction reaction! It is a kind of pseudo-reduction that competes with hydrogen reduction in any type of complex redox process, in order to keep the proton "bare" for longer.  In this context "longer" is measured in billionths or trillionths of a second. 

I think that I can prove this hypothesis logically in a kind of "thought experiment" .... or  Gedankenexperiment, if you prefer, Herr Feynman. But that involves an even longer post, or perhaps its own web page eventually.

BTW, R. Feynman's "Brownian Ratchet" was a "perpetual motion" machine, concocted in a Gedankenexperiment, which did not violate the second law. It didn't work, either, but this one could.

This KEY concept to chemical OU is a sequentially reversible *chain reaction.* 

We know for an absolute fact that certain chemical reactions involving oxygen and hydrogen are NOT thermodynamically balanced. Water electrolysis is NOT balanced thermodynamically when reversed, and this has been proven over and over again, but it is not exactly showing up in physics textbooks. Apparently experts like Ed Storms don't believe it, even though the references I have cited in the past are clear and unambiguous. 

That small bit of excess energy, a fractional eV, would be available from this lack of reversibility but it is normally unusable, just as Brownian motion is unusable, because it is way too miniscule, in and of itself. 

How does one convert the miniscule into the grand, Dr Graneau (Dr. Big-Water)? 
 
Well, just follow the argument in the web-site cited above down to the bottom where a particular generic type of chain reaction is described. Certain superoxidative radicals can work on many substrates, even water, by "stealing" an electron in a chain reaction. Superoxidative radicals can be analogized to gas-electrodes which provide electrolysis in situ. The resulting substrate becomes immediately a radical itself, and can react electrochemically with other non-fuel molecules in a *chain reaction.* Multiply any small gain by 10^20 and it is unusable. But multiply it by 10^23 and you have significant OU. If you provide a superoxidative environment where hydrogen reduction by bare protons is inhibited or delayed by the action of a superoxide, then it may be possible to speed up the threshold for OU from hours or days to 50-100 times per second.

Timing is everything.

At this geometric scale, where a highly reactive chemically reversibly reaction (superoxidation) can be accomplished in less than a picosecond, one only need provide an extended "opportunity". That means that in any type of sequential conversion process where, say a chemical explosion takes place, then the superoxidative chain reaction, the unbalanced "see-saw" must be enhanced to where the product of its number of iterations times the number of molecules involved exceeds roughly 10^23 per cycle.

Sorry, Frank Z, I can't think of how that number can be shoehorned into megahertz-meter but I'm trying to eliminate a few zeros somehow...

Jones

To wax philosophical, one could opine that in the study of LIFE itself - in all its many nuances, there are three major tenets. These are (in order of importance):
1) Timing is everything
2) Timing is everything
3) Timing is everything

Which begs the question: is humor anti-entropic?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 24 11:55:29 2004
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: DoE review of CF
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Maybe my fears about the DOE review are overblown. Perhaps Peter Hagelstein 
will be given some role in selecting panel members, or Dresselhaus will be 
a member and she will be fair-minded. I hope so.

It should be remembered that the ERAB panel left the door slightly open to 
funding for research, but that was only window dressing. In reality, the 
door slammed shut in many people have cited the ERAB report as the reason. 
This new report may also include a lukewarm partial recommendation which is 
also ignored.

On the good side, any publicity is good publicity, and I do not see how the 
panel can make things worse than they are today.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:29:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "David J. Nagel" <nagel gwu.edu>, Frank Znidarsic <FZNIDARSIC@aol.com>,
        "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3162986997_1300818
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On 3/24/04 1:09 PM, "David J. Nagel" <nagel gwu.edu> wrote:


Hi Dave,

> Hi Gene,
>=20
> Frank said yesterday at NRL that he would ask my permission to quote me. =
 He
> did not do that  for the note below.
>=20
>  Well, that is certainly a problem that he has caused.  You message to me
> appeared on Vortex L, so I am posting my reply there too.
>=20
> What Frank wrote is factually wrong on two major counts.  It makes Frank.=
..and
> me...look like fools.
>=20
> Then you must correct the source of the information.
>=20
> I have to go to give a class now and do not have to time to write Frank.
> Please forward this to him.
>=20
>  I will.
>=20
> How widely did you distribute this counterproductive abomination?
>=20
>  =B3Counterproductive abomination=B2?  Now that is real, real sweet of you , =
Dave!
> Frankly, I can point to any number of utterances of Park over the past 15
> years  -- the =B3rattling  corpse=B2 metaphor, etc. -- which are far more wid=
ely
> distributed that any thing Znidarsic or I say on any of our forums.   Alb=
eit,
> our audiences are generally more intelligent and open-mined that those wh=
o
> follow Park=B9s rants.   Quality, not quantity is the point.
>=20
> The Znidarsic remark was made on vortex-l =8B I personally sent my reply to
> Znidarsic no further than that (except maybe for Scott Chubb=B9s eyes) =8B at
> least for now. I certainly will not, however, propagate any error that
> Znidarsic made =8B so please let me know the facts.
>=20
> By the way, I stand by the truth of my remark about basic science and Par=
k=B9s
> mentality being incapable of its appreciation. Do you think otherwise?
>=20
> Sincerely,
>=20
>  Eugene F. Mallove,     www.infinite-energy.com
>=20
> .
> Dave
>=20
>=20
> At 11:30 AM 3/24/04 -0500, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>> On 3/24/04 12:04 AM, "Steve Krivit" <stevek dlsi.net> wrote:
>> News at 10 ---Bob Park attends Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will f=
all
>> out!
>>=20
>> At 09:31 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: David Nagel asked Robert Park to=
 keep
>> an open mind.  Park replied that he would but not to the extent that his
>> brain would fall out.
>>=20
>> Frank Znidarsic=20
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>>=20
>> It is quite clear that Park s brain, though still encased in a thick sku=
ll,
>> has provably been malfunctioning for many years and is incapable of rati=
onal
>> thought on the matter of the basic structure of science.  It does not ne=
ed to
>> fall out. It has done quite enough damage from the place in which it
>> currently resides.
>>=20
>> Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
>=20
> President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporati=
on)
> Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
> PO Box 2816
> Concord, NH 03302-2816
>=20
>>       www.infinite-energy.com <http://www.infinite-energy.com/>
>> editor infinite-energy.com
>>         603-485-4700  Fx: 603-485-4710
>>=20
>>=20
>   =20



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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Park's brain may fall out! &nbsp;NRL &nbsp;report cont.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>On 3/24/04 1:09 PM, &qu=
ot;David J. Nagel&quot; &lt;nagel gwu.edu&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<B>Hi Dave,<BR>
</B><BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0p=
x'>Hi Gene,<BR>
<BR>
Frank said yesterday at NRL that he would ask my permission to quote me. &n=
bsp;He did <U>not</U> do that &nbsp;for the note below.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<B>Well, that is certainly a problem that he has caused. &nbsp;You me=
ssage to me appeared on Vortex L, so I am posting my reply there too.<BR>
</B><BR>
What Frank wrote is <U>factually wrong</U> on two major counts. &nbsp;It ma=
kes Frank...and me...look like fools.<BR>
<BR>
<B>Then you must correct the source of the information.<BR>
</B><BR>
I have to go to give a class now and do not have to time to write Frank. &n=
bsp;Please forward this to him.<BR>
<BR>
<B> I will.<BR>
</B><BR>
How widely did you distribute this counterproductive abomination?<BR>
<BR>
<B> &#8220;Counterproductive abomination&#8221;? &nbsp;Now that is real, re=
al sweet of you , Dave! &nbsp;Frankly, I can point to any number of utteranc=
es of Park over the past 15 years &nbsp;-- the &#8220;rattling &nbsp;corpse&=
#8221; metaphor, etc. -- which are far more widely distributed that any thin=
g Znidarsic or I say on any of our forums. &nbsp;&nbsp;Albeit, our audiences=
 are generally more intelligent and open-mined that those who follow Park&#8=
217;s rants. &nbsp;&nbsp;Quality, not quantity is the point.<BR>
<BR>
The Znidarsic remark was made on vortex-l &#8212; I personally sent my repl=
y to Znidarsic no further than that (except maybe for Scott Chubb&#8217;s ey=
es) &#8212; at least for now. I certainly will not, however, propagate any e=
rror that Znidarsic made &#8212; so please let me know the facts.<BR>
<BR>
By the way, I stand by the truth of my remark about basic science and Park&=
#8217;s mentality being incapable of its appreciation. Do you think otherwis=
e?<BR>
</B><BR>
<B>Sincerely,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;Eugene F. Mallove, &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.infinite-energy.com<BR=
>
</B><BR>
.<BR>
Dave<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 11:30 AM 3/24/04 -0500, Eugene F. Mallove wrote: <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0p=
x'>On 3/24/04 12:04 AM, &quot;Steve Krivit&quot; &lt;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><=
U>stevek dlsi.net</U></FONT>&gt; wrote:<BR>
News at 10 ---Bob Park attends Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will fall=
 out!<BR>
<BR>
At 09:31 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote: David Nagel asked Robert Park to ke=
ep an open mind. &nbsp;Park replied that he would but not to the extent that=
 his brain would fall out.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic <BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Steve<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It is quite clear that Park s brain, though still encased in a thick skull,=
 has provably been malfunctioning for many years and is incapable of rationa=
l thought on the matter of the basic structure of science. &nbsp;It does not=
 need to fall out. It has done quite enough damage from the place in which i=
t &nbsp;currently resides.<BR>
<BR>
Dr. Eugene F. Mallove<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0=
px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9.0px'><B>President, New Energ=
y Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation)<BR>
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine<BR>
PO Box 2816<BR>
Concord, NH 03302-2816 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0p=
x'> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.infinite-energy.com &lt;<FONT COLOR=3D"#=
0000FF"><U><a href=3D"http://www.infinite-energy.com/">http://www.infinite-ene=
rgy.com/</a></U></FONT>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>edito=
r infinite-energy.com</U></FONT> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;603-485-4700 &nbsp;Fx: 603-=
485-4710<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0=
px'> &nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0=
px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3162986997_1300818--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 24 13:08:00 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
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At 11:04 AM 3/24/4, Randy Souther wrote:
><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.</TITLE>
><META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
><BODY>
><P>A nice cold fusion article in the Salt Lake Tribune--interviews with S.
>Jones and others:</P>
><P>"Cold Fusion Research Isn't Frozen"</P>
><P><A
>href="http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03232004/tuesday/tuesday.asp">http://w
>ww.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03232004/tuesday/tuesday.asp</A></P>
><P>Randy</P></BODY><PRE>
>
></PRE>


Interesting to hear that Jones has a live one in replication in three labs.

Also interesting to hear background and some views of Bart Simon, a long
time reader and poster on this list.  (Still lurking I assume Bart?)  It is
surprising to hear Bart Simon's opinion that funding is not available for
the field because of the notariety brought to the field by Pons and
Fleischmann's premature announcement.  This is nonsense.  There would be no
field of cold fusion if it weren't for Fleischmann and Pons.

Jones' published work at the time, if I recall correctly, was on muon
catalysed fusion, which is not really cold fusion at all, but rather an
impractical form of hot fusion.  It exhibits the branching ratios and
signatures of hot fusion.  The main reason there is no funding for cold
fusion is there is no reliable experiment that has been replicated reliably
as well.  Had there been one 15 or 14 years ago there would have been no
problem with funding.  The problem therefore is not with the premature
announcement, but rather with the gate keeping pundits that require
experiments that work 100 percent of the time before publication or funding
is feasible.  The problem is failing to adjust standards according to the
importance of the work.

There has been a tendency at many levels to treat cold fusion as science as
usual.  This is irrational.  It is not science as usual.  It is not even
just paradigm shifting science either.  It is science the timeliness of
which may be critical to our survival.   Unlike pure science, the immediacy
of the value which can result from research in the field of cold fusion is
not in any doubt.   Also, given the 15 years of a steadily increasing body
of positive results, there should be no doubt at this point that there is
in fact new science to be had from effort in the field.

Generally speaking, risk benefit analysis does not give scientists a warm
and fuzzy feeling if applied to research dollars.  That is because the
value of pure science often occurs long after the discoveries are made.
Further, the information gained through pure science itself has human
value.  Cold fusion, on the other hand, is not of this genre.  The
potential it offers may not be even just a benefit, but rather a necessity
not obtainable by any other means.  In any case, cold fusion science should
not be evaluated like ordinary pure science.

The anomalous energy release and nuclear transmutation observed in cold
fusion experiments, without the side effect of irradiated scientists, gives
some basis of hope for a non-polluting, non-greenhouse gas producing
solution to energy needs.  It provides some hope of avoiding the disaster
of economies unable to support the world population.

It does not seem to me reasonable to wait for science to march in its
lumbering way to a resolution.  It certainly should not lumber on with only
minescule or highly limited private funding.   What is required apparently
is a political solution.  What is required is a politician with the vision
to see that gambling on the only available route to a destination is no
gamble at all.  Hopefully the gatekeepers will wake up to the fact their
shortsightedness and puckered sphincters may be putting the future of their
own progeny and those of everyone else at risk.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
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I do not understand why Dave Nagel is upset about Frank Znidarsic's report. 
Robert Park and many other and anti-CF propagandists have made that crack 
about "brains falling out" countless times. Even if Znidarsic's memory 
played tricks on him, and Nagel did not quote Park saying that, it is no 
big deal. Park has said much else that is even worse.

If Nagel contacts Park today, I am sure Park will be happy to retroactively 
endorse the statement. He will say it now, even if he did not happen to say 
it before when Nagel was listening.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:56:20 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Salt Lake Tribune
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Horace Heffner writes:

 > Interesting to hear that Jones has a live one in replication in three labs.

I believe Ed Storms thinks that Jones is observing a conventional nuclear 
phenomenon.

Jones does not believe any of the other evidence for cold fusion reported 
by other researchers. I believe he claims he is intrigued by Iwamura's 
transmutations, but I doubt he would go on record saying he believes they 
are real. He adamantly refuses to believe any excess heat claims. He says 
he is waiting for calorimetric proof from Scott Little, and in the 
meanwhile he discounts all other calorimetric evidence from the last 15 
years. He gave me several technical reasons for his doubts, but all of his 
claims were factually incorrect, such as the statement that heat only 
occurs after long incubation periods and the signal to noise ratio has 
always been low. Why he thinks Little is much more qualified than, say, 
McKubre, and has better instruments than McKubre, is a mystery to me. (It 
is also a mystery to McKubre himself, who was not thrilled to hear about 
Jones' views.)

Jones and I had a lively exchange of letters about this after ICCF-10. I 
would be happy to share copies with anyone who is interested. it is a 
little like a time warp; in my opinion, he is not budged one millimeter 
since 1989.


 > Jones' published work at the time, if I recall correctly, was on muon
 > catalysed fusion, which is not really cold fusion at all, but rather an
 > impractical form of hot fusion.

See "Fire from Ice." Jones was working on a "mother earth soup" version of 
cold fusion.


 > There has been a tendency at many levels to treat cold fusion as science as
 > usual.  This is irrational.  It is not science as usual.  It is not even
 > just paradigm shifting science either.  It is science the timeliness of
 > which may be critical to our survival.

I believe the main reason cold fusion has not been treated like ordinary 
science is because it threatens established research funding, especially in 
hot fusion, which is already an endangered field with a siege mentality. Of 
course scientific issues such as lack of theory and the unexpected, unusual 
nature of the results played a role, but most of the violent rejection has 
been caused by m-o-n-e-y.

I do not think that opposition from established energy industries has 
played a role. The coal and oil barons are too busy fighting wind power and 
environmentalists to take any notice of cold fusion.


 > It does not seem to me reasonable to wait for science to march in its
 > lumbering way to a resolution.  It certainly should not lumber on with only
 > minescule or highly limited private funding.   What is required apparently
 > is a political solution.  What is required is a politician with the vision
 > to see that gambling on the only available route to a destination is no
 > gamble at all.

What is required is a public demonstration, or least a video showing a 
public demonstration, or at least a video showing a demonstration 
experiment that most educated people can understand. Ed Storms and I are 
working on that. We must convince a large number of people that cold fusion 
is real. Once we do that, the public will demand action. Ours is still a 
free society, and the public is still an unstoppable, irresistible force 
that can push aside the largest corporation and the most powerful lobbyist. 
The public seldom wields its power, but that power is dormant, not 
extinguished. Some scientific and technological controversies have dragged 
on for decades, and some for as long as 700 years, even though they were 
critical to society and costs thousands of lives. Always, in the end, the 
public had to step in and enforce action. I am sure that is true for cold 
fusion as well. I like to quote Samuel Florman on this:


Sir Hugh E. C. Beaver, addressing the First International Congress on Air 
Pollution in 1955, traced the seven-hundred-year-long campaign against air 
pollution in England. Complaint after complaint, committee after committee, 
report after report -- all were ineffectual, as the centuries passed, and 
conditions grew progressively worse. Finally the London Smog of 1952, with 
its horrendous 4,000 deaths, set the scene for a new investigating 
committee, which was chaired by Sir Hugh. The committee's report was well 
received, said Beaver, and led to effective action, not because the report 
was exceptional in any way, but because the public was, at long last, 
receptive. The lesson to be learned, according to Beaver, is that "on 
public opinion, and on it alone, finally rests the issue."


- Jed


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Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
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At 11:30 am 24-03-04 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/24/04 12:04 AM, "Steve Krivit" <stevek dlsi.net> wrote:
>
>> News at 10 ---Bob Park attends Cold Fusion meeting....fears brain will fall
>> out!
>> 
>> At 09:31 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>> David Nagel asked Robert Park to keep an open mind.  Park replied that he
>>> would but not to the extent that his brain would fall out.
>>> 
>>> Frank Znidarsic 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Steve
>
>It is quite clear that ParkΉs brain, though still encased in a thick skull,
>has provably been malfunctioning for many years and is incapable of rational
>thought on the matter of the basic structure of science.  It does not need
>to fall out. It has done quite enough damage from the place in which it
>currently resides.


ROTFL

FG

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Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
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Vortex:  I present for your entertainment, disgust and horror an excerpt 
from our recently completed project,
"The 2004 Cold Fusion Report." More information is available 
at  <http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com .


Nevertheless, it has been challenging for cold fusion researchers to obtain 
the participation of scientists within the nuclear physics community to 
scrutinize their work. "The problem," Storms said in a telephone 
conversation in November 2003, "is to find a person who is respected by 
conventional science, who will take the time to learn what is known, and 
then discuss this with objectivity.  Most mainstream scientists are 
woefully ignorant of the field because they do not take the time to study a 
subject they either believe--or have been told--is nonsense."51

For example, several cold fusion scientists, including McKubre and Storms, 
recount rejected attempts to hand-deliver scientific papers to Dr. Robert 
Park, the director of public information for the American Physical Society. 
And MIT physics professor Herman Feshbach once astonishingly remarked, 
"I've had 50 years of experience in nuclear physics, and I know what is 
possible and what is not. I'm not going to read it. It's all junk."52

The investigation behind "The 2004 Cold Fusion Report" included interviews 
with nearly every prominent critic. None had any knowledge of the current 
status of cold fusion, although a few ventured a critique based on outdated 
information.

Walter Gratzer, professor of chemistry at the University of London and 
author of a 2000 book in which cold fusion is criticized, The Undergrowth 
of Science: Delusion, Self-Deception, and Human Frailty,53 said in a 
November 2003 e-mail, "I gave cold fusion as an example of what has been 
called 'pathological science.'  I have to say that it is not my field ... 
What I wrote in the book was based on my reading at the time, which 
convinced me that the cold fusion uproar was based on atrociously bad 
science by people stampeded into hasty experiments and premature 
publication ... but I do not think it is for outsiders like myself to 
pronounce judgments ... I think you should consult genuine experts on 
nuclear reactions."54  He offered as "big names" Nathan Lewis, Steven 
Koonin, Alan Bard, Richard Garwin, William Happer, Jacob Bigeleisen at 
State University of New York, Stony Brook, Frank Close (Exeter College, 
Oxford and the Atomic Energy Laboratory at Harwell), and David Williams, 
formerly at Harwell.55

In a November 2003 telephone conversation, Robert Park said, "This sort of 
dwindling band of true believers, each year they get together and talk 
about the wonderful progress that's been made, and none of the rest of us 
can ever see that." When asked about the allegations that he has refused to 
read cold fusion papers, he commented, "I read them till I was sick of 
them. There's a lot of paranoia in that group." Asked what papers he could 
point to that discussed current claims in cold fusion, Park said, "Golly, I 
haven't gone through that in so long. I don't know offhand what to 
recommend." When asked specifically if he was aware of any papers written 
within the last five or 10 years," he replied, "Nothing, really." Park 
recommended speaking with "the experts:" Steven Koonin and Nathan Lewis.56
Koonin, in a January 2004 e-mail, wrote, "I don't know of any recent events 
that would cause me to look hard at this business again."57 In January 
2004, Lewis e-mailed a reply about progress in cold fusion, "I've been out 
of that area for a decade or so. Consequently, I have no basis for 
commenting on anything that has happened in that period of time 
science-wise."58

Happer, a theoretical physicist with the Princeton Plasma Physics 
Laboratory, wrote in a January 2004 e-mail exchange, "I do follow these 
activities with interest [and] there continue to be papers published and 
claims made. None that I have seen look credible."  When asked to mention a 
few of the papers he has seen, he deflected the question: "Well, if you 
want the complete archive from a 'true believer,' you might want to contact 
Bob Bass [Rhodes Scholar and theoretical physicist formerly with the 
Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory]." Asked again to identify a paper, 
Happer said, "I am still looking around."59

Dr. Frank Close, author of the 1991 book Too Hot to Handle: The Race for 
Cold Fusion,60 and Dr. David Williams, who led Harwell's team on its 
Fleischmann-Pons replication study, each said of the past decade in cold 
fusion research that they had heard nothing of substance. Close elaborated, 
"No one in mainstream science is putting serious research time into this 
... When someone produces hard evidence, then I'll get interested. But I've 
been saying that for 15 years now."61-62 When asked for his definition of 
"hard evidence" he offered "evidence that is reproducible and under varied 
conditions... performed rigorously."63


Steve Krivit 
--=====================_1194094218==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
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<html>
<body>
Vortex:&nbsp; I present for your entertainment, disgust and horror an
excerpt from our recently completed project, <br>
&quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report.&quot; More information is available
at&nbsp;
<a href=3D"http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</a>
.<br><br>
<br>
Nevertheless, it has been challenging for cold fusion researchers to obtain=
 the participation of scientists within the nuclear physics community to=
 scrutinize their work. &quot;The problem,&quot; Storms said in a telephone=
 conversation in November 2003, &quot;is to find a person who is respected=
 by conventional science, who will take the time to learn what is known, and=
 then discuss this with objectivity.&nbsp; Most mainstream scientists are=
 woefully ignorant of the field because they do not take the time to study a=
 subject they either believe--or have been told--is=
 nonsense.&quot;<sup>51<br><br>
</sup>For example, several cold fusion scientists, including McKubre and=
 Storms, recount rejected attempts to hand-deliver scientific papers to Dr.=
 Robert Park, the director of public information for the American Physical=
 Society. And MIT physics professor Herman Feshbach once astonishingly=
 remarked, &quot;I've had 50 years of experience in nuclear physics, and I=
 know what is possible and what is not. I'm not going to read it. It's all=
 junk.&quot;<sup>52<br><br>
</sup>The investigation behind &quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report&quot;=
 included interviews with nearly every prominent critic. None had any=
 knowledge of the current status of cold fusion, although a few ventured a=
 critique based on outdated information. <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Walter Gratzer, professor of chemistry at the University of London and=
 author of a 2000 book in which cold fusion is criticized, <i>The=
 Undergrowth of Science: Delusion, Self-Deception, and Human=
 Frailty</i>,<sup>53</sup> said in a November 2003 e-mail, &quot;I gave cold=
 fusion as an example of what has been called 'pathological science.'&nbsp;=
 I have to say that it is not my field ... What I wrote in the book was=
 based on my reading at the time, which convinced me that the cold fusion=
 uproar was based on atrociously bad science by people stampeded into hasty=
 experiments and premature publication ... but I do not think it is for=
 outsiders like myself to pronounce judgments ... I think you should consult=
 genuine experts on nuclear reactions.&quot;<sup>54</sup>&nbsp; He offered=
 as &quot;big names&quot; Nathan Lewis, Steven Koonin, Alan Bard, Richard=
 Garwin, William Happer, Jacob Bigeleisen at State University of New York,=
 Stony Brook, Frank Close (Exeter College, Oxford and the Atomic Energy=
 Laboratory at Harwell), and David Williams, formerly at=
 Harwell.<sup>55</sup> <br>
&nbsp;<br>
In a November 2003 telephone conversation, Robert Park said, &quot;This sort=
 of dwindling band of true believers, each year they get together and talk=
 about the wonderful progress that's been made, and none of the rest of us=
 can ever see that.&quot; When asked about the allegations that he has=
 refused to read cold fusion papers, he commented, &quot;I read them till I=
 was sick of them. There's a lot of paranoia in that group.&quot; Asked what=
 papers he could point to that discussed current claims in cold fusion, Park=
 said, &quot;Golly, I haven't gone through that in so long. I don't know=
 offhand what to recommend.&quot; When asked specifically if he was aware of=
 any papers written within the last five or 10 years,&quot; he replied,=
 &quot;Nothing, really.&quot; Park recommended speaking with &quot;the=
 experts:&quot; Steven Koonin and Nathan Lewis.<sup>56<br>
</sup>Koonin, in a January 2004 e-mail, wrote, &quot;I don't know of any=
 recent events that would cause me to look hard at this business=
 again.&quot;<sup>57</sup> In January 2004, Lewis e-mailed a reply about=
 progress in cold fusion, &quot;I've been out of that area for a decade or=
 so. Consequently, I have no basis for commenting on anything that has=
 happened in that period of time science-wise.&quot;<sup>58</sup> <br><br>
Happer, a theoretical physicist with the Princeton Plasma Physics=
 Laboratory, wrote in a January 2004 e-mail exchange, &quot;I do follow=
 these activities with interest [and] there continue to be papers published=
 and claims made. None that I have seen look credible.&quot;&nbsp; When=
 asked to mention a few of the papers he has seen, he deflected the=
 question: &quot;Well, if you want the complete archive from a 'true=
 believer,' you might want to contact Bob Bass [Rhodes Scholar and=
 theoretical physicist formerly with the Princeton Plasma Physics=
 Laboratory].&quot; Asked again to identify a paper, Happer said, &quot;I am=
 still looking around.&quot;<sup>59</sup> <br>
&nbsp;<br>
Dr. Frank Close, author of the 1991 book <i>Too Hot to Handle: The Race for=
 Cold Fusion,</i><sup>60</sup> and Dr. David Williams, who led Harwell's=
 team on its Fleischmann-Pons replication study, each said of the past=
 decade in cold fusion research that they had heard nothing of substance.=
 Close elaborated, &quot;No one in mainstream science is putting serious=
 research time into this ... When someone produces hard evidence, then I'll=
 get interested. But I've been saying that for 15 years=
 now.&quot;<sup>61-62</sup> When asked for his definition of &quot;hard=
 evidence&quot; he offered &quot;evidence that is reproducible and under=
 varied conditions... performed rigorously.&quot;<sup>63<br><br>
</sup><x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steve Krivit</body>
</html>

--=====================_1194094218==.ALT--

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:16:58 EST
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
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In a message dated 3/24/04 3:26:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
editor infinite-energy.com writes:


> Hi Gene,
> 
> Frank said yesterday at NRL that he would ask my permission to quote me.  He 
> did not do that  for the note below.
> 

I don't know what the problem is.    I asked permission to use an audio clip. 
 I did not ask permission to reference his talk. He lecture was in a public 
forum.   What you say in an open forum is public knowledge, is it not.   I will 
not ask to use any of his audio.

Anyway we are at a disadvantage already.  Let's stop with the infighting. 

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/24/04 3:26:35=20=
PM Eastern Standard Time, editor infinite-energy.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"=
0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-L=
EFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hi Gene,<BR>
<BR>
Frank said yesterday at NRL that he would ask my permission to quote me.&nbs=
p; He did <U>not</U> do that&nbsp; for the note below.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
><BR>
I don't know what the problem is.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I asked permission to us=
e an audio clip.&nbsp; I did not ask permission to reference his talk. He le=
cture was in a public forum.&nbsp;&nbsp; What you say in an open forum is pu=
blic knowledge, is it not.&nbsp;&nbsp; I will not ask to use any of his audi=
o.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway we are at a disadvantage already.&nbsp; Let's stop with the infightin=
g. <BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out! NRL report cont.
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Steve Krivit writes:

"For example, several cold fusion scientists, including McKubre and Storms, 
recount rejected attempts to hand-deliver scientific papers to Dr. Robert 
Park, the director of public information for the American Physical Society."

Indeed. I distinctly remember the time when I tried to hand him a paper by 
McKubre, during an APS conference. He let the paper fall to the floor. Not 
only does he refuse to read these papers, he literally refuses to touch them!

Krivit asked some of his "skeptical" respondents to list the authors of 
papers they have read. None of them could come up with a single name. When 
I have spoken to them in the past, I discovered that they have *never heard 
of* McKubre, Storms, Iwamura or any of the other well-known researchers, 
and furthermore they have no idea what instrument types and techniques are 
employed in these experiments. That is to say, they are not aware that flow 
calorimeters or on-line mass spectroscopy has been used. It is not as if 
they skimmed the papers and forgotten the particulars. They never bothered 
to read a single paper published after the spring of 1989. Or if they read 
anything, they have extraordinarily bad memories for researchers.

The best way to get these people to shut up once and for all is to tell 
them 300 papers are available online at LENR-CANR.org, and that  480,000 
copies have circulated. They will not read these papers -- they will 
*never* read them -- but in my experience, when they hear about this they 
realize they are holding a weak hand, and they often shut up and crawl back 
under their rocks. Before LENR-CANR.org was established, when I contacted 
skeptics they often responded by saying, "Where's the proof! Show me the 
proof!" Now they do not respond at all. That is the best outcome we can 
hope for.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:45:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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On 3/24/04 5:49 PM, "Steve Krivit" <stevek dlsi.net> wrote:

> Vortex:  I present for your entertainment, disgust and horror an excerpt =
from
> our recently completed project,
> "The 2004 Cold Fusion Report." More information is available at
> www.newenergytimes.com <http://www.newenergytimes.com/> .
>=20
>=20
> Nevertheless, it has been challenging for cold fusion researchers to obta=
in
> the participation of scientists within the nuclear physics community to
> scrutinize their work.

Steve=B9s capsule assessment is right on target =8B the examples he has gathere=
d
are fine =8B they are wonderful. The latest pronouncements are so familiar to
those of us who have interacted directly or indirectly with these mental
midgets ( an evil people) =AD Park, Lewis, Happer, Garwin, Koonin, Huizenga,
Close, Graetzer -- for so long.

The bottom line is this: all these people are consumed by either arrogance,
fear, or a mixture of the two.  The fear comes from a realization  =8B at som=
e
level =8B that this cold fusion/LENR =B3noise=B2 is NOT  going  away; it is not
dwindling as they had all predicted.  It is, in fact, growing louder. And
now, horror or horrors =8B the DoE is actually going to investigate it AGAIN!
Think of all the energy they will now have to expend (in dirty tricks and i=
n
writing fantasy reports), they think, in trying to put it down again!  That
is where their arrogance and fear comes from: they arrogantly assume that
=B3of course it can=B9t be true and we can debunk every point,=B2 but they fear
the huge effort they will have to make in concocting scenarios to explain i=
t
all away. More than that, they now know damn well that the press is going t=
o
dig into this and that the =B3noise=B2 will in some sense continue for as long
as the DoE investigation is on-going.  (That is what MIT hot fusion lab
director Ron Parker was thinking and fearing when he gave that damning
interview to Nick Tate of the Boston Herald in late April 1989 =8B the first
use of the F-word -- =B3fraud=B2 against P&F. He told Tate that he was sick of
the =B3cheerleading=B2 that the Boston Globe was doing for cold fusion. Read th=
e
interview with Parker and Ballinger in the posted 55-page report on cold
fusion and MIT at www.infinite-energy.com) For that reason I hope the DoE
takes its time. I=B9d be very happy if no report  came out until January 2005=
.
This would really hurt the pseudoskeptics very badly. It would allow
positive =8B and negative =8Bspeculation to continue for quite a while, no
matter what the report formally said eventually. Of course, if the DoE
renders a very positive report in short order, that would be better!

The human drama that will play out over the coming weeks and months will be
both delicious and revolting to watch.  The scenario we are faced with is
something like the Biblical drama of the Egyptians chasing the fleeing
Israelites across the parted Red Sea.  The mighty chariots and warriors hav=
e
no fear that they can vanquish the rag tag band of ex-slaves as they charge
after them across the muddy marshes. Little do they know however that they,
the taskmasters, will be drowned by  torrents of truth as the sea closes in
on them and the ex-slaves make it =8Beventually =8B to the Promised Land.

 - Gene Mallove

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation=
)
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
        www.infinite-energy.com    editor infinite-energy.com
        603-485-4700  Fx: 603-485-4710


--B_3162998752_1991695
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Park's brain may fall out! &nbsp;NRL &nbsp;report cont.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>On 3/24/04 5:49 PM, &qu=
ot;Steve Krivit&quot; &lt;stevek dlsi.net&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0p=
x'>Vortex: &nbsp;I present for your entertainment, disgust and horror an exc=
erpt from our recently completed project, <BR>
&quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report.&quot; More information is available at w=
ww.newenergytimes.com &lt;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U><a href=3D"http://www.newen=
ergytimes.com/">http://www.newenergytimes.com/</a></U></FONT>&gt; .<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Nevertheless, it has been challenging for cold fusion researchers to obtain=
 the participation of scientists within the nuclear physics community to scr=
utinize their work.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0=
px'><BR>
Steve&#8217;s capsule assessment is right on target &#8212; the examples he=
 has gathered are fine &#8212; they are wonderful. The latest pronouncements=
 are so familiar to those of us who have interacted directly or indirectly w=
ith these mental midgets ( an evil people) &#8211; Park, Lewis, Happer, Garw=
in, Koonin, Huizenga, Close, Graetzer -- for so long.<BR>
<BR>
The bottom line is this: all these people are consumed by either arrogance,=
 fear, or a mixture of the two. &nbsp;The fear comes from a realization &nbs=
p;&#8212; at some level &#8212; that this cold fusion/LENR &#8220;noise&#822=
1; is NOT &nbsp;going &nbsp;away; it is not dwindling as they had all predic=
ted. &nbsp;It is, in fact, growing louder. And now, horror or horrors &#8212=
; the DoE is actually going to investigate it AGAIN! &nbsp;Think of all the =
energy they will now have to expend (in dirty tricks and in writing fantasy =
reports), they think, in trying to put it down again! &nbsp;That is where th=
eir arrogance and fear comes from: they arrogantly assume that &#8220;of cou=
rse it can&#8217;t be true and we can debunk every point,&#8221; but they fe=
ar the huge effort they will have to make in concocting scenarios to explain=
 it all away. More than that, they now know damn well that the press is goin=
g to dig into this and that the &#8220;noise&#8221; will in some sense conti=
nue for as long as the DoE investigation is on-going. &nbsp;(That is what MI=
T hot fusion lab director Ron Parker was thinking and fearing when he gave t=
hat damning interview to Nick Tate of the Boston Herald in late April 1989 &=
#8212; the first use of the F-word -- &#8220;fraud&#8221; against P&amp;F. H=
e told Tate that he was sick of the &#8220;cheerleading&#8221; that the Bost=
on Globe was doing for cold fusion. Read the interview with Parker and Balli=
nger in the posted 55-page report on cold fusion and MIT at www.infinite-ene=
rgy.com) For that reason I hope the DoE takes its time. I&#8217;d be very ha=
ppy if no report &nbsp;came out until January 2005. This would really hurt t=
he pseudoskeptics very badly. It would allow positive &#8212; and negative &=
#8212;speculation to continue for quite a while, no matter what the report f=
ormally said eventually. Of course, if the DoE renders a very positive repor=
t in short order, that would be better!<BR>
<BR>
The human drama that will play out over the coming weeks and months will be=
 both delicious and revolting to watch. &nbsp;The scenario we are faced with=
 is something like the Biblical drama of the Egyptians chasing the fleeing I=
sraelites across the parted Red Sea. &nbsp;The mighty chariots and warriors =
have no fear that they can vanquish the rag tag band of ex-slaves as they ch=
arge after them across the muddy marshes. Little do they know however that t=
hey, the taskmasters, will be drowned by &nbsp;torrents of truth as the sea =
closes in on them and the ex-slaves make it &#8212;eventually &#8212; to the=
 Promised Land.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;- Gene Mallove<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Monaco"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9.0px'><TT>Dr. Eug=
ene F. Mallove<BR>
President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation=
)<BR>
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine<BR>
PO Box 2816<BR>
Concord, NH 03302-2816 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.infinite-energy.com &nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;editor infinite-energy.com <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;603-485-4700 &nbsp;Fx: 603-=
485-4710<BR>
</TT></SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3162998752_1991695--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 24 22:43:35 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
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At 4:56 PM 3/24/4, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> > Jones' published work at the time, if I recall correctly, was on muon
> > catalysed fusion, which is not really cold fusion at all, but rather an
> > impractical form of hot fusion.
>
>See "Fire from Ice." Jones was working on a "mother earth soup" version of
>cold fusion.


Yes, but his (as of 3/23/89) unpublished research along the "mother earth
soup lines" was based on counting neutrons, and his methods of counting
found questionable by other experts.  It does not seem to me likely that
his work would have made a significant impact on the scientific community
without Pons and Fleischmann's announcement.  It may not have even been
published.  Besides, to focus on neutrons is to miss the main effect, heat
without the radiation signature.


[snip]
>I believe the main reason cold fusion has not been treated like ordinary
>science is because it threatens established research funding, especially in
>hot fusion, which is already an endangered field with a siege mentality. Of
>course scientific issues such as lack of theory and the unexpected, unusual
>nature of the results played a role, but most of the violent rejection has
>been caused by m-o-n-e-y.


Yes, so true, and it may even have been true that a lot of money thrown at
cold fusion in 1989 could have been wasted.  There was indeed some
justification for holding off on funding I think, though no justification
for scientists closing their minds.  Now, 15 years and a day later, there
seems to be an overwhelming abundance of evidence to justify funding.  The
body of evidence stands and should stand on its own.  A competition for
money is justified, and some reasonable percent of the energy research
budget, or at least fusion research, should go to low energy nuclear
reaction research.



>
>I do not think that opposition from established energy industries has
>played a role. The coal and oil barons are too busy fighting wind power and
>environmentalists to take any notice of cold fusion.


Yes so true, and renewables are getting the short end of that battle these
days.   CF is going unnoticed, but it will probably get its turn for
unwanted attention.



>What is required is a public demonstration, or least a video showing a
>public demonstration, or at least a video showing a demonstration
>experiment that most educated people can understand. Ed Storms and I are
>working on that. We must convince a large number of people that cold fusion
>is real. Once we do that, the public will demand action.


I would be surprised in the extreme if cold fusion became a significant
public issue.  It is simply not an election buster.  It is too
controversial and complex a topic.  It doesn't need to be an election
buster though.  The only thing needed is a little common sense from the
right people in the administration or Congress, or in Parliament.  I do
understand that politics runs on money and not common sense, but every now
and then common sense prevails in some compromised form.

Perhaps I'm too short sighted, but seems to me that the best that can be
hoped for is an educated press.    However, who can say for sure?   I
can't.   One thing on the horizon that might make the public actually take
notice is $4.00 a gallon gasoline.  However, there cannot be any doubt that
one of the best things to happen for the CF field is LENR-CANR.org.
Getting the evidence out there is having an effect.  For your success with
LENR-CANR.org I say Bravo!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:39:29 -0800
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Subject: N.Y.TIMES REPORTS: D.O.E. TO RECONSIDER COLD FUSION
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
MARCH 25, 2004

CONTACT: Steven Krivit
(310) 721-5919 (Cell)
(310) 470-8189 (Office)
<mailto:steven newenergytimes.com>

THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTS: NEW U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY REVIEW TAKES
COLD  FUSION  TO  BRINK  OF  ACCEPTANCE

"THE 2004 COLD FUSION REPORT" PROVIDED BACKGROUND INFORMATION
TO NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER KENNETH CHANG FOR STORY RESEARCH


LOS ANGELES, March 25, 2004 -- Investigators Steven Krivit and Nadine 
Winocur have released the most current work on the history and progress of 
the science. "The 2004 Cold Fusion Report," the outcome of a four-year 
investigation, establishes the veracity of cold fusion.

The Department of Energy committed to a second review after meeting on Nov. 
6, 2003 with several scientists who requested an evaluation of progress in 
the field of cold fusion. Dr. James F. Decker, deputy director of the 
science office in the Energy Department, was quoted by The New York Times 
on March 25, 2004 as saying, "The scientists who came to me are from 
excellent institutions and have excellent credentials." The scientists 
reported that cold fusion is real, with results that are robust, verifiable 
and reproducible.

The Energy Department review is expected to decide whether government 
funding should be applied toward cold fusion research. "For advocates of 
cold fusion, the new review brings them to the cusp of vindication after 
years of dismissive ridicule," the New York Times said.

"The 2004 Cold Fusion Report" is based on personal communication with more 
than 50 scientists from around the world, 28 of whom Krivit interviewed on 
camera at the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion in Cambridge, Mass.

The 53-page report includes quotes from such scientists as Dr. Melvin 
Miles, former senior electrochemist of the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons 
Division at China Lake, Calif., who, commenting on an eight-year series of 
U.S. Navy cold fusion experiments, concluded, "In our opinion, these 
[findings] provide compelling evidence that the [cold fusion effects] are 
real. This research area has the potential to provide the human race with a 
nearly unlimited new source of energy. It is possible that [cold fusion] 
will prove to be one of the most important scientific discoveries of this 
century."

It also cites a senior member of the technical staff at the U.S. 
government's Sandia National Laboratories, James Corey, who expressed at 
the September 2003 Energetic Materials Intelligence Symposium that "an 
overdue revolution in science will arrive, [and] the reputations of cold 
fusion scientists and those who revile them may be reversed."

Although 3,000 scientific papers have been written about cold fusion, 
progress is underreported in the scientific and popular media because of a 
rift between cold fusion researchers and the scientific establishment, 
which has refused in its journals to publish articles relating to cold fusion.

In a September 2003 article, science columnist Sharon Begley of the Wall 
Street Journal noted of this phenomenon, "the only thing pathological about 
cold fusion is the way the scientific establishment has treated it."

"The 2004 Cold Fusion Report" includes the following findings:

         o       Demographic data showing that more than 150 scientists 
worldwide, including 60
                 physicists, hold that cold fusion is a verifiable, 
reproducible low-temperature
                 nuclear reaction, free of harmful radiation and nuclear 
waste.

         o       Survey results documenting that the effect is reproducible 
and has been
                 demonstrated in many laboratories around the world, 
through a variety of methods.

         o       Citations from five scientific papers which report 
correlation between excess energy
                 and the nuclear by-product helium-4, a key finding which 
verifies the claims of low-
                 temperature nuclear reactions. Historically, critics of 
cold fusion erroneously
                 assumed that "cold fusion" should emit the same nuclear 
products as "hot fusion."
                 Later research demonstrated that the hunt for the "missing 
neutrons" was
                 misdirected and that the dominant product of cold fusion, 
instead, is helium-4.

"The 2004 Cold Fusion Report" also includes evidence of the veracity of 
cold fusion in several previously unreleased documents:

         o       A 1993 report to the Pentagon by former JASONS chairman 
Richard Garwin and by
                 chemistry professor Nathan Lewis of Caltech that supports 
the findings of "excess
                 heat," providing key evidence for the cold fusion effect. 
Four years earlier, Lewis
                 tried unsuccessfully to replicate the cold fusion effect 
and subsequently became one
                 of the most outspoken critics of cold fusion.

         o       A 1991 report by chemistry professor Alan Bard of the 
University of Texas,
                 a vocal critic of cold fusion who confirmed the presence 
of "excess heat"
                 in an independent laboratory experiment at SRI International.

         o       Two 1995 papers by scientists from Amoco Production Co. 
and Shell Research
                 reporting positive, unambiguous evidence from their own 
cold fusion experiments.

Part 1 of "The 2004 Cold Fusion Report" examines factors that led the 
scientific community to a premature rejection of the validity of cold 
fusion and explains why developments in cold fusion have gone virtually 
unreported. It reviews studies revealing that the early experiments 
conducted by prominent laboratories that were presumed to have debunked 
cold fusion were in fact seriously flawed.

Part 2 of the report discusses the current status of cold fusion research. 
It reviews advances over the past 15 years and identifies the major 
unanswered questions. The report concludes with a glimpse of possible 
future applications for cold fusion technology.

"The 2004 Cold Fusion Report" was reviewed for technical accuracy by two 
physicists with decades of experience in conventional fusion, one of whom 
has studied cold fusion, as well. The other, a skeptical plasma physicist 
who works for a major U.S. fusion research center, described the report as 
"correct, readable, even and unbiased, suitable for reaching physicists and 
educated people."

"The 2004 Cold Fusion Report" has garnered the following praise:

"This is very interesting for me, in part because of my continuing interest 
in neglected science, and in part because I knew Fleischmann & Pons. 
Several things in the report were new to me and look very promising indeed."
- Dr. Henry H. Bauer, Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Scientific Exploration

"This is a fine report. It is a work well done, the old-fashioned way, with 
hard work.
I hope the world reads it -- it is well-written and powerful.
I hope the world acts on it -- it is clear, concise and concrete."
- Dr. Michael Staker, materials scientist and research engineer, U.S. Army 
Research Laboratory, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

"'The 2004 Cold Fusion Report' has brought a wide variety of interesting 
and complex material together. It should be helpful for someone trying to 
understand what the arguing has been about."
- Dr. Michael Melich, senior research professor at the U.S. Naval 
Postgraduate School and former branch head of the U.S. Naval Research 
Laboratory

Pullquotes and art are available on request. For a copy of "The 2004 Cold 
Fusion Report," e-mail your request with full contact information to New 
Energy Times at <mailto:press newenergytimes.com>press@newenergytimes.com .

Steven Krivit
Nadine Winocur
(310) 721-5919 (Cell)
(310) 470-8189 (Office)
<mailto:steven newenergytimes.com>steven@newenergytimes.com
http://www.newenergytimes.com

--=====================_1225904281==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE<br>
MARCH 25, 2004<br><br>
CONTACT: Steven Krivit <br>
(310) 721-5919 (Cell)<br>
(310) 470-8189 (Office)<br>
<a href="mailto:steven newenergytimes.com"><br><br>
</a><div align="center"><font size=4><b>THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTS: NEW
U.S. <br>
DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY REVIEW TAKES&nbsp; <br>
COLD&nbsp; FUSION&nbsp; TO&nbsp; BRINK&nbsp; OF&nbsp; 
ACCEPTANCE<br><br>
</font>&quot;THE 2004 COLD FUSION REPORT&quot; PROVIDED BACKGROUND
INFORMATION<br>
TO NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER KENNETH CHANG FOR STORY RESEARCH<br><br>
<br>
</b></div>
LOS ANGELES, March 25, 2004 -- Investigators Steven Krivit and Nadine
Winocur have released the most current work on the history and progress
of the science. &quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report,&quot; the outcome of a
four-year investigation, establishes the veracity of cold fusion.&nbsp;
<br><br>
The Department of Energy committed to a second review after meeting on
Nov. 6, 2003 with several scientists who requested an evaluation of
progress in the field of cold fusion. Dr. James F. Decker, deputy
director of the science office in the Energy Department, was quoted by
The New York Times on March 25, 2004 as saying, &quot;The scientists who
came to me are from excellent institutions and have excellent
credentials.&quot; The scientists reported that cold fusion is real, with
results that are robust, verifiable and reproducible.<br><br>
The Energy Department review is expected to decide whether government
funding should be applied toward cold fusion research. &quot;For
advocates of cold fusion, the new review brings them to the cusp of
vindication after years of dismissive ridicule,&quot; the New York Times
said. <br><br>
&quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report&quot; is based on personal
communication with more than 50 scientists from around the world, 28 of
whom Krivit interviewed on camera at the 10th International Conference on
Cold Fusion in Cambridge, Mass. <br><br>
The 53-page report includes quotes from such scientists as Dr. Melvin
Miles, former senior electrochemist of the Naval Air Warfare Center
Weapons Division at China Lake, Calif., who, commenting on an eight-year
series of U.S. Navy cold fusion experiments, concluded, &quot;In our
opinion, these [findings] provide compelling evidence that the [cold
fusion effects] are real. This research area has the potential to provide
the human race with a nearly unlimited new source of energy. It is
possible that [cold fusion] will prove to be one of the most important
scientific discoveries of this century.&quot;<br><br>
It also cites a senior member of the technical staff at the U.S.
government's Sandia National Laboratories, James Corey, who expressed at
the September 2003 Energetic Materials Intelligence Symposium that
&quot;an overdue revolution in science will arrive, [and] the reputations
of cold fusion scientists and those who revile them may be
reversed.&quot;<br><br>
Although 3,000 scientific papers have been written about cold fusion,
progress is underreported in the scientific and popular media because of
a rift between cold fusion researchers and the scientific establishment,
which has refused in its journals to publish articles relating to cold
fusion. <br><br>
In a September 2003 article, science columnist Sharon Begley of the Wall
Street Journal noted of this phenomenon, &quot;the only thing
pathological about cold fusion is the way the scientific establishment
has treated it.&quot;<br><br>
&quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report&quot; includes the following
findings:<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Demographic
data showing that more than 150 scientists worldwide, including 60 <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>physicists,
hold that cold fusion is a verifiable, reproducible low-temperature 
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>nuclear
reaction, free of harmful radiation and nuclear waste. <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Survey results
documenting that the effect is reproducible and has been <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>demonstrated
in many laboratories around the world, through a variety of
methods.<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o&nbsp;
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Citations from five
scientific papers which report correlation between excess energy <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>and
the nuclear by-product helium-4, a key finding which verifies the claims
of low-<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>temperature
nuclear reactions. Historically, critics of cold fusion erroneously 
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>assumed
that &quot;cold fusion&quot; should emit the same nuclear products as
&quot;hot fusion.&quot; <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Later
research demonstrated that the hunt for the &quot;missing neutrons&quot;
was<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>misdirected
and that the dominant product of cold fusion, instead, is
helium-4.<br><br>
&quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report&quot; also includes evidence of the
veracity of cold fusion in several previously unreleased
documents:<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o&nbsp;&nbsp;
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>A 1993 report to the Pentagon by
former JASONS chairman Richard Garwin and by <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>chemistry
professor Nathan Lewis of Caltech that supports the findings of
&quot;excess <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>heat,&quot;
providing key evidence for the cold fusion effect. Four years earlier,
Lewis<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>tried
unsuccessfully to replicate the cold fusion effect and subsequently
became one <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>of
the most outspoken critics of cold fusion.<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>A
1991 report by chemistry professor Alan Bard of the University of Texas,
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>a
vocal critic of cold fusion who confirmed the presence of &quot;excess
heat&quot; <br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>in
an independent laboratory experiment at SRI International. <br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>o&nbsp;&nbsp;
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Two 1995 papers by scientists from
Amoco Production Co. and Shell Research<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>reporting
positive, unambiguous evidence from their own cold fusion
experiments.<br><br>
Part 1 of &quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report&quot; examines factors that
led the scientific community to a premature rejection of the validity of
cold fusion and explains why developments in cold fusion have gone
virtually unreported. It reviews studies revealing that the early
experiments conducted by prominent laboratories that were presumed to
have debunked cold fusion were in fact seriously flawed.<br><br>
Part 2 of the report discusses the current status of cold fusion
research. It reviews advances over the past 15 years and identifies the
major unanswered questions. The report concludes with a glimpse of
possible future applications for cold fusion technology.<br><br>
&quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report&quot; was reviewed for technical
accuracy by two physicists with decades of experience in conventional
fusion, one of whom has studied cold fusion, as well. The other, a
skeptical plasma physicist who works for a major U.S. fusion research
center, described the report as &quot;correct, readable, even and
unbiased, suitable for reaching physicists and educated
people.&quot;&nbsp; <br><br>
&quot;The 2004 Cold Fusion Report&quot; has garnered the following
praise:<br><br>
<i>&quot;This is very interesting for me, in part because of my
continuing interest in neglected science, and in part because I knew
Fleischmann &amp; Pons. Several things in the report were new to me and
look very promising indeed.&quot;<br>
</i>- Dr. Henry H. Bauer, Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Scientific
Exploration<br><br>
<i>&quot;This is a fine report. It is a work well done, the old-fashioned
way, with hard work. <br>
I hope the world reads it -- it is well-written and powerful. <br>
I hope the world acts on it -- it is clear, concise and
concrete.&quot;<br>
</i>- Dr. Michael Staker, materials scientist and research engineer, U.S.
Army Research Laboratory, Aberdeen Proving Grounds<br><br>
<i>&quot;'The 2004 Cold Fusion Report' has brought a wide variety of
interesting and complex material together. It should be helpful for
someone trying to understand what the arguing has been about.&quot; 
<br>
</i>- Dr. Michael Melich, senior research professor at the U.S. Naval
Postgraduate School and former branch head of the U.S. Naval Research
Laboratory&nbsp; <br><br>
Pullquotes and art are available on request. For a copy of &quot;The 2004
Cold Fusion Report,&quot; e-mail your request with full contact
information to New Energy Times at
<a href="mailto:press newenergytimes.com">press@newenergytimes.com</a>
.<br><br>
Steven Krivit <br>
Nadine Winocur <br>
(310) 721-5919 (Cell)<br>
(310) 470-8189 (Office)<br>
<a href="mailto:steven newenergytimes.com">steven@newenergytimes.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/" eudora="autourl">http://www.newenergytimes.com</a><br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_1225904281==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 00:37:38 2004
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick wynterwood.co.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040324180721.01cedff8 pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out! NRL report cont.
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:37:28 -0000
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Jed wrote
<<The best way to get these people to shut up once and for all is to tell
them 300 papers are available online at LENR-CANR.org, and that  480,000
copies have circulated>>
<< when I contacted skeptics they often responded by saying, "Where's the
proof! Show me the
proof!" Now they do not respond at all>>

Cold fusion advocates rule OK. Go Jed!!

Nick Palmer


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 00:42:13 2004
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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:48:58 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Life On Ice
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<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386649EFF2232P2977M
2M1.JPG>

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386527EFF2232P2977M
2M1.JPG>

Looks like NASA finally carved into a chunk of clear ice, instead of the
kind being dined upon by lichen.  All that ice being blown out of the
crater, I guess they had to run across some clear ice sooner or later.  The
above photos focus at differing depths.  Looks like life indications to me,
but it could be just an illusion, like the little two eyed critter with the
cute little mouth up in the upper left hand corner.   8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 01:46:01 2004
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Horace, I seem to remember that in 1989 Jones was also working on something
like pressure caused fusion -i.e. something like quartz crystals shock
loaded or something - that would definitely not have been hot fusion, no?

Nick Palmer


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Horace -

Dunno if that's ice, an overjoyed NASA might have said something by now if that's what it was. But the features do look like glassy cracks and dings - obsidian maybe?

- R.

><http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386649EFF2232P2977M
>2M1.JPG>
>
><http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386527EFF2232P2977M
>2M1.JPG>
>
>Looks like NASA finally carved into a chunk of clear ice, instead of the
>kind being dined upon by lichen.  All that ice being blown out of the
>crater, I guess they had to run across some clear ice sooner or later.  The
>above photos focus at differing depths.  Looks like life indications to me,
>but it could be just an illusion, like the little two eyed critter with the
>cute little mouth up in the upper left hand corner.   8^)
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner         

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 02:37:26 2004
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Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out!  NRL  report cont.
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At 06:45 pm 24-03-04 -0500, you wrote:
>On 3/24/04 5:49 PM, "Steve Krivit" <stevek dlsi.net> wrote:
>
<snip>

>The human drama that will play out over the coming weeks and months will be
>both delicious and revolting to watch.  The scenario we are faced with is
>something like the Biblical drama of the Egyptians chasing the fleeing
>Israelites across the parted Red Sea.  The mighty chariots and warriors have
>no fear that they can vanquish the rag tag band of ex-slaves as they charge
>after them across the muddy marshes. Little do they know however that they,
>the taskmasters, will be drowned by  torrents of truth as the sea closes in
>on them and the ex-slaves make it ‹eventually ‹ to the Promised Land.
>
> - Gene Mallove

That is delicious 8-)

FG

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 02:53:13 2004
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From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:56:53 +0200
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Hey Horace,
I just shocked few minutes ago, seeing microscobic pictures of sol 79 prior to
reading your posting. Maybe today wake-up song of the rover is "Ice Ice Baby"
from Vanilla Ice.

Regards, hamdix

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 25 March 2004 10:48
Subject: Life On Ice


> <http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386649EFF2232P2977M
> 2M1.JPG>
>
> <http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386527EFF2232P2977M
> 2M1.JPG>
>
> Looks like NASA finally carved into a chunk of clear ice, instead of the
> kind being dined upon by lichen.  All that ice being blown out of the
> crater, I guess they had to run across some clear ice sooner or later.  The
> above photos focus at differing depths.  Looks like life indications to me,
> but it could be just an illusion, like the little two eyed critter with the
> cute little mouth up in the upper left hand corner.   8^)
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 04:42:56 2004
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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:46:14 +0200
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Using two images
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133382710EFF2232P2977M2M1.JPG
for right eye  and
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133383049EFF2232P2977M2M1.JPG
for left eye, I am able to have a stereographic view of this area. The small
stone at the center gives  a 3D shape, but the shades "under the ice" gives no
dept. This means the surface is not transparent, rather these shades are on the
surface or very close, within a mm. This strongly weaken the clear ice
hypothesis. Despite this it is hard to understand why these shades are appears
as out of focus. Maybe not clean ice but dirty and nearly opaque.  And why a
large area of brushed or carved section is featureless except these slight shade
undulation? On the other hand, shades on the bottom, at the unbrushed section
appears as slightly bumpy, light shades correspond to elevations and darks to
impressions. Sand particles spread on this section appears to follow this bumpy
surface, again suggesting the surface is opaque.

Note: I have no stereoscopic apparatus to see 3D, I just put two images side by
side and cross my eyes.

Horace, may you can fit URL' in one line by cutting the "http://" part.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 25 March 2004 12:56
Subject: Re: Life On Ice


> Hey Horace,
> I just shocked few minutes ago, seeing microscobic pictures of sol 79 prior to
> reading your posting. Maybe today wake-up song of the rover is "Ice Ice Baby"
> from Vanilla Ice.
>
> Regards, hamdix
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: 25 March 2004 10:48
> Subject: Life On Ice
>
>
> > <http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386649EFF2232P2977M
> > 2M1.JPG>
> >
> > <http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386527EFF2232P2977M
> > 2M1.JPG>
> >
> > Looks like NASA finally carved into a chunk of clear ice, instead of the
> > kind being dined upon by lichen.  All that ice being blown out of the
> > crater, I guess they had to run across some clear ice sooner or later.  The
> > above photos focus at differing depths.  Looks like life indications to me,
> > but it could be just an illusion, like the little two eyed critter with the
> > cute little mouth up in the upper left hand corner.   8^)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Horace Heffner
> >
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 07:03:25 2004
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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:00:14 -0500
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From: Bart Simon <simonb alcor.concordia.ca>
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Hi Horace, hi everyone...

I can't resist being pulled out of lurk mode, especially with all these 
interesting new developments.  Horace said:



>Also interesting to hear background and some views of Bart Simon, a long
>time reader and poster on this list.  (Still lurking I assume Bart?)  It is
>surprising to hear Bart Simon's opinion that funding is not available for
>the field because of the notariety brought to the field by Pons and
>Fleischmann's premature announcement.  This is nonsense.  There would be no
>field of cold fusion if it weren't for Fleischmann and Pons.

I really couldn't agree more but I'm not sure I did a good job making 
myself clear on the phone -- I didn't say that FPs announcement was 
premature at all... its just that the ensuing debate in the public sphere 
had a negative impact on the development of experimental practice. IMO, 
science doesn't work that well when folks are impugning each others 
integrity... as a result a perfectly legitimate scientific enterprise has 
been stigmatized. Unlike others here I don't blame anyone in particular but 
rather an unintended consequence of almost everyones best intentions (and I 
also admit not everyone was a saint in this story...). Sorry about this but 
its a sociological conceit - we never blame individuals just 
collectivities.. heh, that's why we are sociologists, its also why we don't 
do so well in the press -- newspapers always need good guys and bad guys.

Anyway I have always viewed the stigma of CF as a two-sided coin -- On the 
one hand the stigma has hurt the development of CF work because of the 
difficulty in obtaining resources (money has been the largest but not the 
only issue -- labour in the form of students is another big one) on the 
other hand, the cf field is historically notable for its development as a 
nearly open research community willing to engage all manner of questions 
and ideas in ways that institutionalized sciences often fail to do.  My 
main point, and the point of my book has always been that nothing 
particularly unscientific is going on with CF research at all and indeed, 
there is plenty to learn about how to do science from the best CF researchers.

Well that was the point of my story in the interview -- it didn't all get 
into the paper the way I wanted it but i'm terrible to talk to on the 
phone... still the article is not too bad at all.

cheers,
Bart 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 07:23:59 2004
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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:24:46 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Park's brain may fall out! NRL report cont.
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Eugene F. Mallove writes:

 > Steve’s capsule assessment is right on target ­ the examples he has
 > gathered are fine ­ they are wonderful.

Yes. Excellent work, Steve.


 > I’d be very happy if no report  came out until January 2005. This
 >  would really hurt the pseudoskeptics very badly. It would allow
 > positive ­ and negative ­speculation to continue for quite a while, no
 > matter what the report formally said eventually.

An interesting point. I hadn't thought of that. I do not know how long the 
panel will actually work, but I am sure the report will not come out before 
the election, for political reasons.

I hope the panel looks at Iwamura's work.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 08:51:22 2004
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Life On Ice
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:03:30 -0500
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On Thursday 25 March 2004 07:46, hamdix iris.com.tr wrote:
> Using two images
> http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133382710EFF2232P2977M
>2M1.JPG for right eye  and
> http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133383049EFF2232P2977M
>2M1.JPG for left eye, I am able to have a stereographic view of this area.
> The small stone at the center gives  a 3D shape, but the shades "under the
> ice" gives no dept. This means the surface is not transparent, rather these
> shades are on the surface or very close, within a mm. This strongly weaken
> the clear ice hypothesis. Despite this it is hard to understand why these
> shades are appears as out of focus. Maybe not clean ice but dirty and
> nearly opaque.  And why a large area of brushed or carved section is
> featureless except these slight shade undulation? On the other hand, shades
> on the bottom, at the unbrushed section appears as slightly bumpy, light
> shades correspond to elevations and darks to impressions. Sand particles
> spread on this section appears to follow this bumpy surface, again
> suggesting the surface is opaque.
>
> Note: I have no stereoscopic apparatus to see 3D, I just put two images
> side by side and cross my eyes.
>
> Horace, may you can fit URL' in one line by cutting the "http://" part.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: 25 March 2004 12:56
> Subject: Re: Life On Ice
>
> > Hey Horace,
> > I just shocked few minutes ago, seeing microscobic pictures of sol 79
> > prior to reading your posting. Maybe today wake-up song of the rover is
> > "Ice Ice Baby" from Vanilla Ice.
> >
> > Regards, hamdix
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: 25 March 2004 10:48
> > Subject: Life On Ice
> >
> > > <http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386649EFF2232P
> > >2977M 2M1.JPG>
> > >
> > > <http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386527EFF2232P
> > >2977M 2M1.JPG>
> > >
> > > Looks like NASA finally carved into a chunk of clear ice, instead of
> > > the kind being dined upon by lichen.  All that ice being blown out of
> > > the crater, I guess they had to run across some clear ice sooner or
> > > later.  The above photos focus at differing depths.  Looks like life
> > > indications to me, but it could be just an illusion, like the little
> > > two eyed critter with the cute little mouth up in the upper left hand
> > > corner.   8^)
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Horace Heffner

Your letters  hit my system in morning.  By 1145hrs ET, the pix were gone from 
NASA's servers.  In its place were '404' errors.  Maybe NASA is now censoring
its pix to include 'out' any that would tell the truth?   Also, your letter 
broke the URL into two lines.  The broken lines generated 'four-0-four' 
errors all by themselves until the mistake was found.  The corrected line met 
a similar fate, however, so gave up on NASA to give me the pix.  
   Incidentally, Mozilla and Konqueror do not like each other so that URL's 
meant for Konqueror will not copy and paste into Mozilla's address window.
They have to  be hand typed.  That gets a little mean if the URL is over
so many characters long.

Sincerely
Standing Bear


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From: Standing Bear <rockcast earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Jones Beene" <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Superoxide Anions and Over-Unity Electrolysis Cells?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:26:22 -0500
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On Wednesday 24 March 2004 14:11, Jones Beene wrote:
> One more comment on the site that Fred forwarded yesterday.
>
> It has significant relevance to chemical overunity in any reaction where
> water, excess oxygen and electrical current are found to produce an energy
> anomaly.
>
>  http://www.astaxanthin.org/oxidation.htm
>
> I think that almost everyone on this forum who has a background with some
> degree of classical physics education, has been conditioned to believe that
> there is no such thing as chemical OU. Consequently, it is a common belief
> that if a reaction shows significant OU, then it must of necessity be
> either LENR, CANR, CF, or hydrino, etc... or measurement error.
>
> This may not be the case. Here are some further thoughts on the likelihood
> that OU is available through chemistry alone, despite the fact that you
> were taught otherwise in university. It need not employ recourse to ZPE,
> which is equally controversial to LENR. Personally I believe that chemical
> OU does involve a Casimir-type geometry - which is arguably ZPE, but that
> is another issue.
>
> The key point is that the appearance of excess heat in many different kinds
> of experiments may not involve conversion of nuclear mass to energy at
> all... or even conversion of electron angular momentum into excess energy,
> but instead may involve a single common denominator. That common
> denominator is a reaction where a "bare proton" is allowed to stay bare for
> a long enough time span, and often enough, to attract whatever mass-energy
> is available from whatever extra-dimensional source. One really need not
> get more specific about the source of excess energy than that.
>
> And if you follow "hot fusion" and this hypothesis is correct, you may have
> already noticed this irony. If one could provide a loss-free containment
> structure for protons, eliminating Bremsstrahlung for instance, and using
> RTSC, then one would not need 'fusion' at all. The power density would be
> lower, but so what.
>
> The bare proton seems to be the key to chemical overunity. It may operate
> like a 4-space antenna. We also beginning to get a grasp on the threshold
> numbers which are involved because water itself does have a lot of
> temporarily bare protons, which are not bare for long enough... until
> moderately stimulated. This stimulation process often involves the
> superoxidation of water, which is a bit counter-intuitive, until one looks
> at superoxidation itself as a kind of pseudo-reduction reaction! It is a
> kind of pseudo-reduction that competes with hydrogen reduction in any type
> of complex redox process, in order to keep the proton "bare" for longer. 
> In this context "longer" is measured in billionths or trillionths of a
> second.
>
> I think that I can prove this hypothesis logically in a kind of "thought
> experiment" .... or  Gedankenexperiment, if you prefer, Herr Feynman. But
> that involves an even longer post, or perhaps its own web page eventually.
>
> BTW, R. Feynman's "Brownian Ratchet" was a "perpetual motion" machine,
> concocted in a Gedankenexperiment, which did not violate the second law. It
> didn't work, either, but this one could.
>
> This KEY concept to chemical OU is a sequentially reversible *chain
> reaction.*
>
> We know for an absolute fact that certain chemical reactions involving
> oxygen and hydrogen are NOT thermodynamically balanced. Water electrolysis
> is NOT balanced thermodynamically when reversed, and this has been proven
> over and over again, but it is not exactly showing up in physics textbooks.
> Apparently experts like Ed Storms don't believe it, even though the
> references I have cited in the past are clear and unambiguous.
>
> That small bit of excess energy, a fractional eV, would be available from
> this lack of reversibility but it is normally unusable, just as Brownian
> motion is unusable, because it is way too miniscule, in and of itself.
>
> How does one convert the miniscule into the grand, Dr Graneau (Dr.
> Big-Water)?
>
> Well, just follow the argument in the web-site cited above down to the
> bottom where a particular generic type of chain reaction is described.
> Certain superoxidative radicals can work on many substrates, even water, by
> "stealing" an electron in a chain reaction. Superoxidative radicals can be
> analogized to gas-electrodes which provide electrolysis in situ. The
> resulting substrate becomes immediately a radical itself, and can react
> electrochemically with other non-fuel molecules in a *chain reaction.*
> Multiply any small gain by 10^20 and it is unusable. But multiply it by
> 10^23 and you have significant OU. If you provide a superoxidative
> environment where hydrogen reduction by bare protons is inhibited or
> delayed by the action of a superoxide, then it may be possible to speed up
> the threshold for OU from hours or days to 50-100 times per second.
>
> Timing is everything.
>
> At this geometric scale, where a highly reactive chemically reversibly
> reaction (superoxidation) can be accomplished in less than a picosecond,
> one only need provide an extended "opportunity". That means that in any
> type of sequential conversion process where, say a chemical explosion takes
> place, then the superoxidative chain reaction, the unbalanced "see-saw"
> must be enhanced to where the product of its number of iterations times the
> number of molecules involved exceeds roughly 10^23 per cycle.
>
> Sorry, Frank Z, I can't think of how that number can be shoehorned into
> megahertz-meter but I'm trying to eliminate a few zeros somehow...
>
> Jones
>
> To wax philosophical, one could opine that in the study of LIFE itself - in
> all its many nuances, there are three major tenets. These are (in order of
> importance): 1) Timing is everything
> 2) Timing is everything
> 3) Timing is everything
>
> Which begs the question: is humor anti-entropic?

I dunno.  Many years more than I care to remember ago there was a comic strip
that had a mad scientist in it with a huge 'Rube Goldberg contraption' that 
produced energy from 'bent atoms'.  The scientist's name was 'Adam Bender'!
Go figure!  Given the strangeness of quantum mechanics and QCD, maybe there
is now even room for him.  After all, the Rovers have semi vindicated 
Velikovskiy with regards to Mars.

Standing Bear


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 09:21:49 2004
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thanks Jed

>Yes. Excellent work, Steve.

S 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 09:23:32 2004
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Standing Bear wrote:
>    Incidentally, Mozilla and Konqueror do not like each other so that URL's 
> meant for Konqueror will not copy and paste into Mozilla's address window.
> They have to  be hand typed.

Ironic since they're both front ends on the same browser engine (Gecko). 
  It may be possible to work around the problem, tho.

Suggestions:

1) Note that Mozilla has two ways to paste, ^V and middle-click.  They 
don't do the same thing.  Try both, making sure you selected and cut in 
between; one may work.

2) Konqueror, being a Mozilla front end, probably has two ways to copy: 
  select alone, and ^C after select.  Copy from the edit menu _may_ do 
something different yet again from ^C (historically one was "copy" and 
one was "quick copy" but almost nobody knew the difference).  Try both; 
one may work better in transfering data to Mozilla.

3) Finally, if all else fails get someone else to intercede.  Emacs and 
Xterm are the two I use when two third-party programs simply won't get 
along.  Two approaches:

  -- Open an Emacs window (Stallman Emacs is my personal fave but Xemacs 
no doubt does the job too).  Paste the string into Emacs, then copy it 
out again.  Make sure you select the text _and_ use esc-w, just to load 
up both of X's cut buffers, and try pasting into Mozilla.

  -- If that doesn't do it, use an Xterm window.  That nearly always 
works but it's more tedious.  Here's how I do it:

    a) Open an Xterm
    b) Run Emacs in the xterm, as "emacs -nw".  "nw" => No Window => use 
the Xterm window, don't open your own.
    c) Paste the item into a scratch buffer in the Emacs inside the 
Xterm.  Then copy it out again.  With Xterm, you just use click/drag to 
select and copy; there's no ^C needed.

Using an Emacs inside the Xterm isn't totally necessary but it keeps the 
Xterm from trying to execute whatever you pasted as a command.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 09:55:14 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: N.Y.TIMES REPORTS: D.O.E. TO RECONSIDER COLD FUSION
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At 11:39 PM 3/24/4, Steve Krivit wrote:

>"THE 2004 COLD FUSION REPORT" PROVIDED BACKGROUND INFORMATION
>TO NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER KENNETH CHANG FOR STORY RESEARCH
>
>
>LOS ANGELES, March 25, 2004 -- Investigators Steven Krivit and Nadine
>Winocur have released the most current work on the history and progress of
>the science. "The 2004 Cold Fusion Report," the outcome of a four-year
>investigation, establishes the veracity of cold fusion.
[snip]
>"This is a fine report. It is a work well done, the old-fashioned way, with
>hard work.
>I hope the world reads it -- it is well-written and powerful.
>I hope the world acts on it -- it is clear, concise and concrete."
>- Dr. Michael Staker, materials scientist and research engineer, U.S. Army
>Research Laboratory, Aberdeen Proving Grounds
[snip]


Awesome!  Kudos to Steve Krivit and Nadine Winocur!


When's the book and movie coming?  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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At 12:10 AM 3/25/4, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>Horace -
>
>Dunno if that's ice, an overjoyed NASA might have said something by now if
>that's what it was. But the features do look like glassy cracks and dings
>- obsidian maybe?
>
>- R.
>
>><http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386649EFF2232P2977M
>>2M1.JPG>
>>
>><http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386527EFF2232P2977M
>>2M1.JPG>


Obsidian was the first thing in my mind when I saw the images.  However, if
you browse around and compare pairs of images you can see that the photos
are taken at differing distances and that some of the structures change
relative positions depending on perspective.  As far as I know this could
only happen if they were 3d objects.  It admittedly could be just wishful
thinking on my part, but I did look at details before posting and figured
wahtever the stuf is it must be transparent to at least a small depth.  It
would be most intersting if another spot were ground on the far side, to
see if light came through from the back side.  Also, it appears the wire
brush is capable of scarring the surface.  A wire brush should not
serverely scar obsidian, should it?  Obsidian is pretty hard.  The thing
that bothers me most is the clarity of the surface.  It doesn't seem like
ice should grind to that kind of polish.  Only heat would be likely to do
that.  Maybe it is warm on Mars this sol, or maybe the grinder was heated a
lot?  The "warm on Mars" explanation doesn't work because you can clearly
see grinding remnants on the surface that did not melt.



At 2:46 PM 3/25/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>Using two images
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133382710EFF2232P2977M
>2M1.JPG
>for right eye  and
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133383049EFF2232P2977M
>2M1.JPG
>for left eye, I am able to have a stereographic view of this area. The small
>stone at the center gives  a 3D shape, but the shades "under the ice" gives no
>dept. This means the surface is not transparent, rather these shades are on the
>surface or very close, within a mm. This strongly weaken the clear ice
>hypothesis. Despite this it is hard to understand why these shades are appears
>as out of focus. Maybe not clean ice but dirty and nearly opaque.  And why a
>large area of brushed or carved section is featureless except these slight
>shade
>undulation? On the other hand, shades on the bottom, at the unbrushed section
>appears as slightly bumpy, light shades correspond to elevations and darks to
>impressions. Sand particles spread on this section appears to follow this bumpy
>surface, again suggesting the surface is opaque.
>
>Note: I have no stereoscopic apparatus to see 3D, I just put two images side by
>side and cross my eyes.


It is much better I think to view in two separate windows that are
superimposed and switch rapidly between windows.  I have more to say below.


At 12:03 PM 3/25/4, Standing Bear wrote:
[snip]
>Your letters  hit my system in morning.  By 1145hrs ET, the pix were gone from
>NASA's servers.  In its place were '404' errors.  Maybe NASA is now censoring
>its pix to include 'out' any that would tell the truth?   Also, your letter
>broke the URL into two lines.  The broken lines generated 'four-0-four'
>errors all by themselves until the mistake was found.  The corrected line met
>a similar fate, however, so gave up on NASA to give me the pix.
>   Incidentally, Mozilla and Konqueror do not like each other so that URL's
>meant for Konqueror will not copy and paste into Mozilla's address window.
>They have to  be hand typed.  That gets a little mean if the URL is over
>so many characters long.


I don't understand this.  A URL is a URL.  They are text.  I cut the above
URL's from Mozilla.  There are currently JPGs at the JPL site for the above
URLs.  However, I must say they are not the photos I thought I was looking
at when I posted!  In fact, they reloaded when I referenced them to check
out what you are saying.  They were not in my cache, so they took a long
time to load.  Very strange. I don't think anything underhanded is going on
however, because the photos I want are still there, just relocated and
under differing names, or maybe I just messed up as usual.  Soooo... let's
try this again.

Here are the photo URL's as best as I can give them (the vortex list server
forces line wrap on them.)

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M
2M1.JPG>

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386649EFF2232P2977M
2M1.JPG>

Here they are in the format Hamdi suggested:

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386649EFF2232P2977M2M1.JPG

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Jones Beene wrote:

> snip
>
> BTW, R. Feynman's "Brownian Ratchet" was a "perpetual motion" machine, concocted in a Gedankenexperiment, which did not violate the second law. It didn't work, either, but this one could.
>
> This KEY concept to chemical OU is a sequentially reversible *chain reaction.*
>
> We know for an absolute fact that certain chemical reactions involving oxygen and hydrogen are NOT thermodynamically balanced. Water electrolysis is NOT balanced thermodynamically when reversed, and this has been proven over and over again, but it is not exactly showing up in physics textbooks. Apparently experts like Ed Storms don't believe it, even though the references I have cited in the past are clear and unambiguous.

Well Jones, I'm confused about what you think I don't believe.  Many chemical reactions are not reversible.  This does not make them over unity, as many calorimetric measurements made over the years have shown.  Electrolysis is potentially a reversible reaction, but is seldom done under reversible conditions.  Electrolysis can easily be shown not to be over unity, except under the very special conditions associated with cold fusion.  So, I don't understand the point you are making.

Are you saying that a source of energy separate from that obtained from the observed nuclear reactions is available when water is electrolyzed?  Mills claims one other source and the Correas (Mallove) claim a third source.  Are your suggesting a fourth source?

Ed

>
>
> That small bit of excess energy, a fractional eV, would be available from this lack of reversibility but it is normally unusable, just as Brownian motion is unusable, because it is way too miniscule, in and of itself.
>
> How does one convert the miniscule into the grand, Dr Graneau (Dr. Big-Water)?
>

snip

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 10:09:42 2004
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At 12:24 PM 3/25/4, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

>Using an Emacs inside the Xterm isn't totally necessary but it keeps the
>Xterm from trying to execute whatever you pasted as a command.

Arg!  Now that I see this discussion I am wondering if the problem is
trying to cut and paste two lines all in one operation.  This won't work
because there is a carriage return and line end at the end of the first
line that in effect wipes it out.   I paste the second line into Mozilla's
URL window first, then cut (excluding the line end CR) and paste the first
line in at the front before hitting enter.  This works fine for me, but I
am working on a RedHat linux.
Hamdi's solution also works in this case, provided the URL is not too long,
because you just type in the http:// part at the front.


BTW, I run my email on an old Mac Performa 5200.  Am thinking about
upgrading to a G5.  I wonder if its worth the expense and trouble.  I have
a feeling I will have trouble getting my many years worth of Eudora 1.5.3
email upgraded so I can continue to do searches on it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Horace Heffner wrote:

>When's the book and movie coming?  8^)
>

:-)

Here's the NYT article.  Free registration may be required:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/25/science/25FUSI.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 10:35:05 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Salt Lake Tribune
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At 10:00 AM 3/25/4, Bart Simon wrote:
>Hi Horace, hi everyone...
>
>I can't resist being pulled out of lurk mode,

Wonderful!

[snip]
>I really couldn't agree more but I'm not sure I did a good job making
>myself clear on the phone --


When I see reporting of events I've witnessed I wonder how on earth anyone
could get the facts so mixed up.  Sometimes I think it must only in part be
reporter confusion.  The main problem may be editors rewording things so
they sound better, and deleting critical information in order to save
space, but in the process destroying the reporter's intended meaning.


[snip]
>Anyway I have always viewed the stigma of CF as a two-sided coin -- On the
>one hand the stigma has hurt the development of CF work because of the
>difficulty in obtaining resources (money has been the largest but not the
>only issue -- labour in the form of students is another big one) on the
>other hand, the cf field is historically notable for its development as a
>nearly open research community willing to engage all manner of questions
>and ideas in ways that institutionalized sciences often fail to do.


Yes, that the stigma exists is undeniable.  At least high school kids seem
willing to take a risk, but they get politically correctivised when they
get to college.


>My
>main point, and the point of my book has always been that nothing
>particularly unscientific is going on with CF research at all and indeed,
>there is plenty to learn about how to do science from the best CF researchers.


Yep ...   and at long last the undead seem to be rising up from the coffin
to shake people up a little!  8^)


>Well that was the point of my story in the interview -- it didn't all get
>into the paper the way I wanted it but i'm terrible to talk to on the
>phone... still the article is not too bad at all.


Thanks for responding.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Mar 25 10:47:25 2004
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> BTW, I run my email on an old Mac Performa 5200.  Am thinking about
> upgrading to a G5.  I wonder if its worth the expense and trouble.  I have
> a feeling I will have trouble getting my many years worth of Eudora 1.5.3
> email upgraded so I can continue to do searches on it.

I haven't used Eudora, so I don't know what you'd be giving up by 
switching to another mail reader.  But it surely seems like it would be 
possible (lots of other people have been in the same position).

After a brief web search it looks like you could transfer the files to 
Mozilla without much trouble.  Eudora apparently saves them as plain 
text, and the two products are more or less compatible.

I also suspect you could get it into Emacs VM without much trouble, and 
that can export into some standard formats.  (VM itself is a pretty nice 
mail reader but it's not really very graphical, so multiple mailboxes 
are harder to juggle with it than with, e.g., Mozilla.)

Sorry -- this is getting 'way off topic...

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:54:38 -0800
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 12:24 PM 3/25/4, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
>
> >Using an Emacs inside the Xterm isn't totally necessary but it keeps the
> >Xterm from trying to execute whatever you pasted as a command.
>
> Arg!  Now that I see this discussion I am wondering if the problem is
> trying to cut and paste two lines all in one operation.  This won't work
> because there is a carriage return and line end at the end of the first
> line that in effect wipes it out.   I paste the second line into Mozilla's
> URL window first, then cut (excluding the line end CR) and paste the first
> line in at the front before hitting enter.  This works fine for me, but I
> am working on a RedHat linux.
> Hamdi's solution also works in this case, provided the URL is not too long,
> because you just type in the http:// part at the front.
>
> BTW, I run my email on an old Mac Performa 5200.  Am thinking about
> upgrading to a G5.  I wonder if its worth the expense and trouble.  I have
> a feeling I will have trouble getting my many years worth of Eudora 1.5.3
> email upgraded so I can continue to do searches on it.

Good for you, Horace.  I recently upgraded from a 7600 Power Mac to an iMAC
and have been very pleased.  Both OS9.5 and OS10.28 can run together or
separately so that many old programs can be accessed.  Also, your Performa can
be easily networked to the G5 so that you can transfer files.

Ed



>
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

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Thanks guys for the encouraging words on Macs.

Well, for fun here goes a continuation of the crackpot "Life On Ice" notion
easily disproved by those in the know, assuming it is bogus.  The JPL
website says:

"An early morning review of the alpha particle X-ray spectrometer data
revealed that the instrument's doors were not fully open and that the
tool did not completely engage at the intended "New York" target on the
rock dubbed "Mazatzal.""


Assuming the x-ray spectrometer was warm, the fact the door was closed
might account for the ice surface melt giving us a clear window into the
ice.  This would also account for the fact the granules laying on top here
and there do not melt. The plot thickens.  A good 3d rendering would sure
be handy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Edmund Storms wrote:

>"Electrolysis is potentially a reversible reaction, but is seldom done under reversible conditions.  Electrolysis can easily be shown not to be over unity, except under the very special conditions associated with cold fusion.  So, I don't understand the point you are making."

There are three points to be made, Ed, at least three. But let me stress that I am just throwing out possibilities for explaining a way that overunity can occur in a chemical chain reaction - based on valid experimental evidence, without making any kind of firm claim that it is the sole source of excess heat in CF - only that it may be a contributing source... plus, it is seldom... almost never, considered as a potential source of overunity - for the reasons stated before, when perhaps it should be. 

First, as to your contention about electrolysis overunity. Here is one of many references, several of which are available on lenr-canr.org: 
ON CURRENT DENSITY AND EXCESS POWER DENSITY IN ELECTROLYSIS EXPERIMENTS  by Dan Chicea  (paper presented at ICCF9)
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChiceaDoncurrentd.pdf

As you probably know, Chicea is an associate of George Miley. GM helped him with this study and presumably accepted the accuracy of the results. Without the shadow of Miley, one might be inclined to discount the importance of these findings.

Here is one of many clear reports of excess power from electrolysis which cannot be due to D+D "cold fusion." If you look at the chart of the excess power, i.e. the " f ratio" it is the number that describes the experiment in respect to the excess power which was achieved with all of the combinations tried: the highest f ratios value in the 10 experiments described in this work is surprising. But basically the offshoot is that light water and Ni cathodes gives better results than Pd/deuterium in similar controlled experiments, which eliminates cold fusion as the major source of excess energy. This doesn't mean that CF is not happening at all, only that it is not always a major source of excess energy, and could conceivably be endothermic, that is: if a substantial contributor to the excess is found elsewhere.

The second point relates to the small thermodynamic imbalance in electrolysis, and I mentioned this several months ago: It has been consistently shown that voltage of 1.24 Volts is the threshold potential necessary to separate hydrogen from oxygen in pure water at 77° Fahrenheit (F) and 14.7 pounds per square inch pressure [25° Celsius (C) and 1.03 kilograms (kg) per centimeter ^2.] This is less that the thermodynamic balance of 1.4 eV which is what one finds in physics textbooks. 

This 1.24 is the end of  a "Boltzmann's tail" distribution, and it has heretofore been very difficult to exploit that small one-sixth of an eV per molecule due to the low reaction cross-section at 1.24 volts when using solid electrodes.....However, using gaseous virtual electrodes, you can do it over-and-over again sequentially at high probability because you can get the complete field strength of 1.24 which is available at the angstrom spacing of appropriate ions. If you set up a situation where the same water molecules is split-recombined-split-recombined-etc on a nanosecond time scale, so that you can get a "free"  1 eV with every 6 iterations when there are no losses, then this method can result in substantial chemical overunity in a chain reaction.

The third point relates to the paradigm shift of a "chemical chain reaction" replacing any need to invoke LENR to explain excess heat. The chemical chain reaction was described in the previous citation and probably requires a slight charge imbalance from free electrons, as Fred Sparber suggested. Fred and I have speculated earlier that this same mechanism may supply about a third of the enormous energy found in hurricanes.
 
> "Are you saying that a source of energy separate from that obtained from the observed nuclear reactions is available when water is electrolyzed?"

Almost. I am saying that this is a distinct possibility - one that has yet to be eliminated. In fact, the so-called nuclear reactions of CF are so extremely different from those of normal physics, except for the ash, that they could even be endothermic - we just don't know.

> "Mills claims one other source and the Correas (Mallove) claim a third source.  Are your suggesting a fourth source?"

Actually, if the hypothesis of a "bare proton" stimulus being the single common denominator in all of these is correct, then there may be only that single source. This stimulus specifically exists in the normally rare situation where a bare proton is forced to stay bare for a long enough time span, and often enough sequentially, to attract whatever mass-energy is available from whatever extra-dimensional source. One really need not get more specific about the "real" source of excess energy than that. 

When comparing explanations, and without high energy photons as corroborating evidence, then any so-called "nuclear" reactions, cold, warm or whatever, are no more probable or likely than an extra-dimensional source. You can put the tag of ZPE on that if you like. As I opined before, the bare proton seems to be the key to overunity, and it may operate like an extradimensional antenna. Maybe the true source of excess energy being captured is the ubiquitous 21 cm. wavelength "background" radiation that bathes our universe. Yes, that particular source is very faint in our 3-space, but if a "bare proton" does indeed turn out to be this kind of 4-space gateway, then we may find that the 21 cm background is actually intense in a higher dimension. There is just not enough information available to make a more specific guess.

With the upcoming reviews of the cold fusion field, if it is to be truly thorough... well, it might be prudent for anyone who might offer advice to DoE to at least have all the possible bases covered, at least mentally, as I suspect that some of those involved, if they are thorough enough, will scour all the possibilities - such as by asking "how do you know where the excess energy is coming from"? IMHO, to answer that it "must be cold fusion because we found helium..."  may not suffice...

Regards,

Jones





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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
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At 11:45 PM 3/24/4, Nick Palmer wrote:
>Horace, I seem to remember that in 1989 Jones was also working on something
>like pressure caused fusion -i.e. something like quartz crystals shock
>loaded or something - that would definitely not have been hot fusion, no?
>
>Nick Palmer


According to page 158 of Mallove's book *Fire From Ice* Jones and Van
Siclen published on that in 1986.  Apparently the work was not earth
shaking in its impact, and was based on sensing the expected (hot fusion
signature) neutron generation.  Scaramuzzi got some more credible neutron
results by cooling and then reheating the titanium loaded samples, but that
was post March, 1989.  I think there is no doubt at all that Jones was
working on fusion, you might even call it cold fusion, during the period
1986-89.

The thing is there were no significant anomalous results obtained or
published by Jones - significant in the sense that there was any hope in
sight of a practical energy source or even a paradigm shift.  It is no
wonder.  To focus on neutrons seems to go nowhere, at least nowhere into
the cold fusion regime ... unless perhaps there is some kind of continuity,
a half-way regime between hot and cold fusion, where branching ratios
change with continuity.  That is not to say that Jones is not deserving of
credit for doing pioneering work.  It is also not to say that neutron work
demonstrating anomalous nuclear events is a waste of time, or that it can't
lead to a better understanding of cold fusion, low energy transmutation,
etc.  It just doesn't seem to lead the way to non-chemical heat.

My point is that the field of CF as we know it today, as a prospect for a
clean radiation-safe energy source, really got its start from Pons and
Fleischmann's announcement.  Jones apparently was no where near
conceptualizing heat without neutrons as a possibility and, from Jed's
comments, perhaps he is not there yet.  Beyond that, low energy heavy
element transmutation was not even on the scope at the time.  That got its
start from Bockris' group working on P&F style fusion at TAMU if I recall.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Jones wrote
<snip>

> Here is one of many clear reports of excess power from electrolysis which
cannot be due to D+D "cold fusion." If you look at the chart of the excess
power, i.e. the " f ratio" it is the number that describes the experiment in
respect to the excess power which was achieved with all of the combinations
tried: the highest f ratios value in the 10 experiments described in this
work is surprising. But basically the offshoot is that light water and Ni
cathodes gives better results than Pd/deuterium in similar controlled
experiments, which eliminates cold fusion as the major source of excess
energy. This doesn't mean that CF is not happening at all, only that it is
not always a major source of excess energy, and could conceivably be
endothermic, that is: if a substantial contributor to the excess is found
elsewhere.
-----------------------
Jones visits the HSG (Hydrino Study Group) camp, so he (and others here)
will be aware that Mills' original experiments involved light water, nickel
electrodes, and potassium carbonate as an electrolyte, and he got excess
heat, as K+ is a BLP catalyst. Mills has demonstrated that deuterium atoms
work just fine in the BLP reactions, which involve electron orbits, not
nuclei. Thus is it not far-fetched to suppose that the BLP reaction could be
occuring in some cells intended for CF reactions.
<snip>

> > "Mills claims one other source and the Correas (Mallove) claim a third
source.  Are your suggesting a fourth source?"
>
> Actually, if the hypothesis of a "bare proton" stimulus being the single
common denominator in all of these is correct, then there may be only that
single source. This stimulus specifically exists in the normally rare
situation where a bare proton is forced to stay bare for a long enough time
span, and often enough sequentially, to attract whatever mass-energy is
available from whatever extra-dimensional source. One really need not get
more specific about the "real" source of excess energy than that.
--------------------
Being familiar with the Corread PAGD reactor but not the more recent orgone
work, I can offer that the 'bare protons' don't enter into consideration; it
is an aether phenomenon. But here, words are targets for misunderstandings,
so perhaps it is well to mark the spot as requiring more investigation.
<snip>

Regards,
Mike Carrell


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Subject: Re: Superoxide Anions and Over-Unity Electrolysis Cells?
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Thanks Mike for the comments.  Although a light water cell can not produce
energy from fusion, we now know that transmutation reactions occur in such
cells.  Until excess power is measured along with any likely nuclear products,
the occurrence of LENR reactions can not be ruled out.  This possibility does
not rule out the Mills effect occurring at the same time.  At this point, we
have two demonstrated sources of energy.  I think it premature to introduce
additional sources until we know whether or not the known sources can account
for all over unity.

Ed

Mike Carrell wrote:

> Jones wrote
> <snip>
>
> > Here is one of many clear reports of excess power from electrolysis which
> cannot be due to D+D "cold fusion." If you look at the chart of the excess
> power, i.e. the " f ratio" it is the number that describes the experiment in
> respect to the excess power which was achieved with all of the combinations
> tried: the highest f ratios value in the 10 experiments described in this
> work is surprising. But basically the offshoot is that light water and Ni
> cathodes gives better results than Pd/deuterium in similar controlled
> experiments, which eliminates cold fusion as the major source of excess
> energy. This doesn't mean that CF is not happening at all, only that it is
> not always a major source of excess energy, and could conceivably be
> endothermic, that is: if a substantial contributor to the excess is found
> elsewhere.
> -----------------------
> Jones visits the HSG (Hydrino Study Group) camp, so he (and others here)
> will be aware that Mills' original experiments involved light water, nickel
> electrodes, and potassium carbonate as an electrolyte, and he got excess
> heat, as K+ is a BLP catalyst. Mills has demonstrated that deuterium atoms
> work just fine in the BLP reactions, which involve electron orbits, not
> nuclei. Thus is it not far-fetched to suppose that the BLP reaction could be
> occuring in some cells intended for CF reactions.
> <snip>
>
> > > "Mills claims one other source and the Correas (Mallove) claim a third
> source.  Are your suggesting a fourth source?"
> >
> > Actually, if the hypothesis of a "bare proton" stimulus being the single
> common denominator in all of these is correct, then there may be only that
> single source. This stimulus specifically exists in the normally rare
> situation where a bare proton is forced to stay bare for a long enough time
> span, and often enough sequentially, to attract whatever mass-energy is
> available from whatever extra-dimensional source. One really need not get
> more specific about the "real" source of excess energy than that.
> --------------------
> Being familiar with the Corread PAGD reactor but not the more recent orgone
> work, I can offer that the 'bare protons' don't enter into consideration; it
> is an aether phenomenon. But here, words are targets for misunderstandings,
> so perhaps it is well to mark the spot as requiring more investigation.
> <snip>
>
> Regards,
> Mike Carrell

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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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> On Thursday 25 March 2004 07:46, hamdix iris.com.tr wrote:
> > Using two images
> >
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133382710EFF2232P2977M
> >2M1.JPG for right eye  and
> >
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133383049EFF2232P2977M
> >2M1.JPG for left eye, I am able to have a stereographic view of this
area.
> > The small stone at the center gives  a 3D shape, but the shades "under
the
> > ice" gives no dept. This means the surface is not transparent, rather
these
> > shades are on the surface or very close, within a mm. This strongly
weaken
> > the clear ice hypothesis.

Hmm... The first image has to go to the left, and the second to the right. I
think you had the images reversed.

I made a 3D image from the two, and if you use the red lens for the left
eye, I think it does look like ice -- maybe.

Check it out, if you have 3D glasses.

http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm

Sincerely,

Craig Haynie (Houston)

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Jones Beene wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >"Electrolysis is potentially a reversible reaction, but is seldom done under reversible conditions.  Electrolysis can easily be shown not to be over unity, except under the very special conditions associated with cold fusion.  So, I don't understand the point you are making."
>
> There are three points to be made, Ed, at least three. But let me stress that I am just throwing out possibilities for explaining a way that overunity can occur in a chemical chain reaction - based on valid experimental evidence, without making any kind of firm claim that it is the sole source of excess heat in CF - only that it may be a contributing source... plus, it is seldom... almost never, considered as a potential source of overunity - for the reasons stated before, when perhaps it should be.
>
> First, as to your contention about electrolysis overunity. Here is one of many references, several of which are available on lenr-canr.org:
> ON CURRENT DENSITY AND EXCESS POWER DENSITY IN ELECTROLYSIS EXPERIMENTS  by Dan Chicea  (paper presented at ICCF9)
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChiceaDoncurrentd.pdf
>
> As you probably know, Chicea is an associate of George Miley. GM helped him with this study and presumably accepted the accuracy of the results. Without the shadow of Miley, one might be inclined to discount the importance of these findings.

Well Jones, a casual examination of the method and data reveals several serious errors.  First, the equation used to apply the calibration is forced to go through zero.  I seldom observe a calibration equation passing through zero especially when an isoperibolic calorimeter is used.  Second, Dan notes that the cell was air cooled and that variation in room temperature caused an artifact for which a correction had to be applied.  Third, such a cell can not be calibrated using an internal resistor, which they used without revealing this fact in the paper.  From what I know of the methods used by Miley when this work was done, I have a hard time believing the results.  However, better studies of heat being produce by a H2O cell have been published.  Nevertheless, this heat producing environment has not been studied with
sufficient care to reach any firm conclusion.  Too many of the few calorimetric measurements have obvious errors.  The D2O environment has been studied with much more care.

>
>
> Here is one of many clear reports of excess power from electrolysis which cannot be due to D+D "cold fusion." If you look at the chart of the excess power, i.e. the " f ratio" it is the number that describes the experiment in respect to the excess power which was achieved with all of the combinations tried: the highest f ratios value in the 10 experiments described in this work is surprising. But basically the offshoot is that light water and Ni cathodes gives better results than Pd/deuterium in similar controlled experiments, which eliminates cold fusion as the major source of excess energy. This doesn't mean that CF is not happening at all, only that it is not always a major source of excess energy, and could conceivably be endothermic, that is: if a substantial contributor to the excess is found elsewhere.

We now know that transmutation reactions occur in a H2O cell which will produce some nuclear heat.  So far, no one has shown a careful quantitative relationship between the amount of transmutation and the amount of heat, Miley not withstanding.

>
>
> The second point relates to the small thermodynamic imbalance in electrolysis, and I mentioned this several months ago: It has been consistently shown that voltage of 1.24 Volts is the threshold potential necessary to separate hydrogen from oxygen in pure water at 77° Fahrenheit (F) and 14.7 pounds per square inch pressure [25° Celsius (C) and 1.03 kilograms (kg) per centimeter ^2.] This is less that the thermodynamic balance of 1.4 eV which is what one finds in physics textbooks.

The voltage of 1.44 V is not the real voltage required to separate water, but it is the heat of dissociation expressed in volts.  When expressed this way, the energy lost by H2 and O2 leaving the cell can be easily calculated using a simple equation.  The real voltage depends on the hydrogen and oxygen activities.  A voltage of 1.44 V is expected only when the hydrogen activity at the cathode surface is unity and the oxygen activity at the anode surface is unity.  These activities are seldom realized, hence the observed voltage is different from 1.44 V.  When you quote such values, you need to consider the total thermodynamic package.

>
>
> This 1.24 is the end of  a "Boltzmann's tail" distribution, and it has heretofore been very difficult to exploit that small one-sixth of an eV per molecule due to the low reaction cross-section at 1.24 volts when using solid electrodes.....However, using gaseous virtual electrodes, you can do it over-and-over again sequentially at high probability because you can get the complete field strength of 1.24 which is available at the angstrom spacing of appropriate ions. If you set up a situation where the same water molecules is split-recombined-split-recombined-etc on a nanosecond time scale, so that you can get a "free"  1 eV with every 6 iterations when there are no losses, then this method can result in substantial chemical overunity in a chain reaction.

Here, Jones,  you are entering the world of speculation.  Of course, various mechanisms can be proposed to extract energy from the Boltzman distribution, many of which have been explored.  However, as far as I know the anomalies that can be produced are small and do not represent any violation of current thinking.

>
>
> The third point relates to the paradigm shift of a "chemical chain reaction" replacing any need to invoke LENR to explain excess heat. The chemical chain reaction was described in the previous citation and probably requires a slight charge imbalance from free electrons, as Fred Sparber suggested. Fred and I have speculated earlier that this same mechanism may supply about a third of the enormous energy found in hurricanes.

In a complex process such as a hurricane, many conventional mechanisms can operate, yet be overlooked as to their magnitude.  For example, the energy used to break water into nanosized droplets and its recombination elsewhere can generate apparent energy in local regions that is hard to evaluate.  I would feel more confident of a new energy source if you could suggest an experiment that isolates this proposed source from conventional possibilities.

>
>
> > "Are you saying that a source of energy separate from that obtained from the observed nuclear reactions is available when water is electrolyzed?"
>
> Almost. I am saying that this is a distinct possibility - one that has yet to be eliminated. In fact, the so-called nuclear reactions of CF are so extremely different from those of normal physics, except for the ash, that they could even be endothermic - we just don't know.

I think it safe to assume that the reactions cannot be endothermic.  The mechanism is not all that unique.  A solid lattice has many ways to influence the Coulomb barrier as many imaginative theoreticians have demonstrated.  It is very hard to find a mechanism that can assemble several MeV and place it at the location of a nuclear process at exactly the time this process occurs.

>
>
> > "Mills claims one other source and the Correas (Mallove) claim a third source.  Are your suggesting a fourth source?"
>
> Actually, if the hypothesis of a "bare proton" stimulus being the single common denominator in all of these is correct, then there may be only that single source. This stimulus specifically exists in the normally rare situation where a bare proton is forced to stay bare for a long enough time span, and often enough sequentially, to attract whatever mass-energy is available from whatever extra-dimensional source. One really need not get more specific about the "real" source of excess energy than that.

Bare protons have been made and maintained in this state for "long" times in accelerators and cyclotrons, yet no evidence of anomalous behavior has been reported.  These bare protons last far longer in this state using these devices than when they are in a solid lattice.  In fact, the proton is not bare in PdD but has an effective charge of about 0.25 ev.  Even when moving in the lattice, electromigration studies show that the proton is not bare.  It is only bare in a plasma or in an ion beam.  Consequently, your mechanism applies more to hot fusion than to cold fusion.

>
>
> When comparing explanations, and without high energy photons as corroborating evidence, then any so-called "nuclear" reactions, cold, warm or whatever, are no more probable or likely than an extra-dimensional source. You can put the tag of ZPE on that if you like. As I opined before, the bare proton seems to be the key to overunity, and it may operate like an extradimensional antenna. Maybe the true source of excess energy being captured is the ubiquitous 21 cm. wavelength "background" radiation that bathes our universe. Yes, that particular source is very faint in our 3-space, but if a "bare proton" does indeed turn out to be this kind of 4-space gateway, then we may find that the 21 cm background is actually intense in a higher dimension. There is just not enough information available to make a more specific guess.

>
>
> With the upcoming reviews of the cold fusion field, if it is to be truly thorough... well, it might be prudent for anyone who might offer advice to DoE to at least have all the possible bases covered, at least mentally, as I suspect that some of those involved, if they are thorough enough, will scour all the possibilities - such as by asking "how do you know where the excess energy is coming from"? IMHO, to answer that it "must be cold fusion because we found helium..."  may not suffice...

I suggest it would be a mistake to ask the DoE to evaluate various proposed mechanisms.  This is hard enough for scientists in the field to do.  We just want them to acknowledge that an anomalous phenomenon exists, no more.

Ed

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jones

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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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I just made another 3D image. This one's a lot better. It definitely looks
like a crystal to me. Maybe ice. (Red on Left Eye)

http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm

Craig Haynie

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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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Craig Haynie wrote:

> Hmm... The first image has to go to the left, and the second to the right. I
> think you had the images reversed.

Yes, of course, I am not able to separate my eyes like frogs, but I can cross
it,
this is little uneasing I know, maybe I exercise to lock my eyes L to L and R to
R, more conventionally:)

Brain is a great image processor. It can even produce 3D vision using
incompatible left and right images, i.e.  one bigger and other smaller, little
titled, contrast difference and one image out of focus  does not stop it to
create 3d pictures, Only when I tried totally incompatibe images and force me to
combine it, brain really screw-up and then I understand it is not possible there
is a problem :)

>
> I made a 3D image from the two, and if you use the red lens for the left
> eye, I think it does look like ice -- maybe.
>
> Check it out, if you have 3D glasses.
>
> http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm


Unfortunetly, I have not. Do you see  a dept of the background shades?

One thing I did not understand yet, is grinding is made or not. This is because
in image 2M133386649EFF2232P2977M2M1.JPG , the brigt spot, appear as a
protrusion lies on the cleaned area, if there would be a grinding this wouldn't
be cut?

> Sincerely,
>
> Craig Haynie (Houston)
>

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Horace Heffner posted;


Perhaps I'm too short sighted, but seems to me that the best that can be
hoped for is an educated press.    However, who can say for sure?   I
can't.   One thing on the horizon that might make the public actually take
notice is $4.00 a gallon gasoline.  However, there cannot be any doubt that
one of the best things to happen for the CF field is LENR-CANR.org.
Getting the evidence out there is having an effect.  For your success with
LENR-CANR.org I say Bravo!

IMHO, if someone had succeeded in producing an engine which produced 
usable power, this matter would have been settled. OTHO, radio 
nuclides have been remediated, and DOE has ignored it. There is no 
question that the anamolious isotopic ratios are artifactual, 
indicating either separation or transmutation. What was it that 
Parksie said, "I don't care about your isotopic ratios"?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 01:27:23 2004
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Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 03:28:09 -0600
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>
>  >the taskmasters, will be drowned by  torrents of truth as the sea closes in
>>on them and the ex-slaves make it -eventually - to the Promised Land.
>>
>>  - Gene Mallove
>
>That is delicious 8-)
>
>FG

The idea of seeing Parksie leading the charge into the Red Sea in his 
gold wheeled Chariot, at the head of an army of academics grown fat 
on the $150,000,000,000 in federal research money, and then seeing 
the water cover them, yes!! Gives new meaning to the word delicious.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 01:27:24 2004
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I spent an hour looking over the site. I'm wondering how some thing 
like this could work and what it's operation says about the nature of 
electromagnetism.

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Subject: Re: Thoughts on C F and Parksie
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Thomas Malloy wrote:
<snip>
>
> IMHO, if someone had succeeded in producing an engine which produced
> usable power, this matter would have been settled. OTHO, radio
> nuclides have been remediated, and DOE has ignored it.

How do you mean 'ignored'? The process that I know of falls within the
window of conventional physics, so nothing to get excited about, but also
involves high cost, high energy equipment so that while remediation can be
accomplished on a small scale, using that approach to remediate tons of
radioactive material is not as cheap as burying it, as expensive and
unpleasant as that might be. Remediation by a CF process has been hinted at,
but approaches advanced so far do not seem to have survived close analysis.
That does not mean that a LENR remediation process will not be developed.
Many, many things can happen if a paradigm shift occurs and well funded
groups learn how to work in the LENR world.

There is no
> question that the anomalous isotopic ratios are artifactual,
> indicating either separation or transmutation. What was it that
> Parksie said, "I don't care about your isotopic ratios"?

Yes, they are artifactual, but like other hints will not be taken seriously
until the whole issue of an existence proof is accepted. My understanding of
the approach taken by those presenting to the new panel will be the minimal
one of getting an official endorsement that the world of LENR constitutes
"science" and thereby merits routine consideration instead of routine
rejection. Thereafter "scientists" can apply for grants, get papers accepted
by mainline journals, etc. without threatening their careers. Young
scientists could then afford to study the field without wrecking their
careers. The Patent Office might even stop automatically rejecting CF patent
applications. If that happens, then we might see CF engines emerge from the
shadows.

Mike Carrell
>
>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 06:42:49 2004
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Comments by Decker at DoE are promising
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Now that I have had a chance to think about it, I realize these comments by 
Decker at the DOE are promising. An official at a government agency does 
not write flippant messages to a New York Times reporter. He must have 
thought about his words carefully. He may have cleared them with his boss. 
He must realize that he will be inviting attacks by Park and others.

There were 3,082 downloads at LENR-CANR.org yesterday, the second-highest 
daily total on record. I assume these were caused by the New York Times. 
The number of accesses from search tools such as Google was higher than 
normal, but not extraordinarily high. This means there were not large 
numbers of people new to the field coming in on their own. It suggests that 
groups of people were discussing cold fusion in response to the New York 
Times, probably by e-mail, and several of them mentioned our web site and 
suggested to their friends that they have a look at it. (When someone 
discusses LENR-CANR.org in an online discussion group or on a web page, and 
includes a hyperlink to it, I can often track down the hyperlink and find 
their comments.) I did notice unusually high activity in the library 
indices, indicating that many people were looking up authors. Most of the 
time, readers know what they are looking for, and they download papers 
directly without ever looking at the HTML screens.

The article quoted a professor of plasma fusion, Dr. Stewart Prager, who 
said he has not heard anything about cold fusion. I found him and asked him 
a brief, friendly message inviting them to look at LENR-CANR.org. He 
responded: "Thank you for the information. Much appreciated, Stewart 
Prager." That is another straw in the wind. In the past, I have probably 
contacted 50 to 100 professors and I do not recall that more than one or 
two acknowledged the message, and none said thank you.

I posted the following description of the DOE panel on the Features page at 
LENR-CANR.org:


Upcoming DoE review of cold fusion

After ICCF-10, several leading cold fusion researchers contacted the US 
Department of Energy and asked them to set up a review panel to examine 
cold fusion results and determine whether cold fusion research should be 
funded. The DOE has agreed to convene a panel. The members have not been 
selected yet.

The DOE first looked at cold fusion in 1989, in the ERAB report. The panel 
was convened soon after cold fusion was announced, and it finished its work 
several months before the first serious cold fusion application experiments 
were completed, and a year or two before they could be published. The ERAB 
report concluded that cold fusion probably does not exist, but that some 
funding might be appropriate. Despite this, funding was cut off and the 
report was cited as justification for this decision.

The New Scientist magazine broke the news of this new panel in the March 
20, 2004 issue, in a short article by Ben Daviss, "Upfront: News in 
perspective" on page 6. On March 25, 2004, the New York Times published an 
article titled, "U.S. Will Give Cold Fusion Second Look, After 15 Years," 
by Kenneth Chang.

Chang conducted an e-mail interview with Dr. James F. Decker, deputy 
director of the science office in the Energy Department. Drecker confirmed 
that the panel is being formed, and he wrote: "It was my personal judgment 
that their request for a review was reasonable." On November 6, 2003, 
Decker met with Peter Hagelstein (MIT); Michael McKubre (SRI 
International), and David J. Nagel (George Washington University). Decker 
said, "They presented some data and asked for a review of the scientific 
research that has been conducted. The scientists who came to see me are 
from excellent scientific institutions and have excellent credentials."


- Jed


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Subject: How and why public support for CF may help
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Horace Heffner writes:

 > >nature of the results played a role, but most of the violent rejection has
 > >been caused by m-o-n-e-y.
 >
 > Yes, so true, and it may even have been true that a lot of money thrown at
 > cold fusion in 1989 could have been wasted.

Especially in the Japanese NEDO program.


 >  There was indeed some
 > justification for holding off on funding I think . . .

I agree there was justification for keeping funding at a modest level. A 
few million dollars a year would have been appropriate. A $100 million 
crash program starting in 1989 would have been a disaster. It would have 
been a shark feeding frenzy, leaving nothing but blood on the water.


 > I would be surprised in the extreme if cold fusion became a significant
 > public issue.  It is simply not an election buster.

It will not decide any elections, because both parties have neglected CF. I 
did not mean to suggest that CF must reach the front page of every 
newspaper before any progress is made. We do not need to win the war in a 
single afternoon. If there is modest government funding, and considerably 
more academic and corporate funding, progress will be rapid. This does not 
require that every skeptic be silenced. Later, if anything like a practical 
device emerges from the laboratory, cold fusion will be on the front page 
of every newspaper, and the skeptics will be silenced forever.

When I say that public support is needed, I do not mean we need 
overwhelming public support, and millions of people writing to their 
congressmen before we get funding for a single experiment. I quoted the 
British expert Beaver from 1955, when the first modern air pollution 
reduction programs began. Beaver said that no progress had been made 
previously because the public did not demand action. Once the public came 
on board, legal reforms, R&D, and other progress became inevitable. 
However, that does not mean that all air pollution problems were solved by 
1956. England still has serious air pollution. If the public demands 
research in cold fusion, progress will be inevitable, but that does not 
mean the technical problems will be solved, or practical devices will be 
developed, and it certainly does not mean the skeptics will shut up. The 
public demands serious, expensive research in cancer and AIDS, but so far 
the these diseases have not been cured.

Future events may resemble those surrounding Judah Folkman and his 
angiogenesis theory of cancer formation. He has been working on this since 
the 1960s. A few years ago, the New York Times in many other newspapers 
reported that he had achieved success in that other laboratories were 
trying to replicate him. This was followed months later by announcements 
that the other laboratories had failed to replicate, and many experts 
doubted his results. Some denounced him. Then the news was dropped from the 
papers, and as far as the casual reader would know, that was the end of 
Folkman and his theory. However, if you take a little deeper, you find that 
in the end he was replicated and progress is apparently being made. In 
other words, the victory was quiet and behind the scenes and it has not yet 
reached the public. Cold fusion cannot follow this path exactly, because 
there will be no replication experiments and no publication until the 
public takes some interests and demands at least some action.


 > notice is $4.00 a gallon gasoline.  However, there cannot be any doubt that
 > one of the best things to happen for the CF field is LENR-CANR.org.

Thank you, but as far as I know it has not actually accomplished anything 
yet. There is still no funding, and the level of public awareness remains 
microscopic.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 10:21:18 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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Craig Haynie has very graciously posted a 3D image of the subject "Life On
Ice" as the 3rd photo on page:

<http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm>

It can also be referenced directly as:

<http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/:Hard Disk:424:ice3d.jpg:>

This is a 3D image I composited, using GIMP, from two Spirit Sol 79
microscopic photos from JPL.  The perspective arises from differing camera
elevations above the ice, not lateral camera displacement, so the 3D effect
shows up in a radial fashion, not throughout the photo uniformly.  For this
reason I rotated the image 90 degrees so that some of the more interesting
items show up clearly when the left eye has a red filter and the right eye
blue-green, the typical 3D glasses orientation.  Some features are best
viewed after rotating the image further, or by rotating the head.

The striking thing is that surface items and subsurface items can be
clearly distinguished right next to each other in various places.  The
resulting apparent differing depths can not then be merely due to an
illusion from image superposition, but rather must be due to real
geometrical differences in the object space.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 10:48:38 2004
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Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:54:18 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Ice field lichen
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Opportuntity is taking some great photos of the "matchstick lichen" and
decomposing fruiting bodies now that it is out of eagle crater and out on
the ice field surface.

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/059/1M133421584EFF0830P2977M
2M1.JPG>

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/059/1M133421584EFF0830P2977M2M1.JPG

There are lots of places where long strands of the stuff can be seen laying
on the surface.  It seems larger or more mature than the stuff in Eagle
crater.  It must grow better out where there are more hours of sun?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 11:22:34 2004
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From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:26:13 +0200
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A friend said  that water ice could not survive to much  above cryogenic
temperature. Could this be a giant NaCl crystal? There are too much clues that
is a transparent or translucent and soft material having glassy surface. What
could be otherwise?

Despite the depth appearance of individual images, using a stereographic
arrangement I am not able to obtain depth view of background shades,  despite
the foreground protrusions and cracks appears as 3D. Graphical analysis also
confirm there is no depth on shades, the out of focus appearance of background
shades does not change or correct on subsequent picture taken closer distance
also.

How this illusion is made? Maybe the grassy material is translucent and muddy.
Oh I think I found something now! If the material make fuzzy the things inside,
there would be no  precise reference points visible to obtain 3D visualization
and graphical analysis. So I looked to large dark patches having no distinct
contours. Et voila! They are different in pictures
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386244EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG
and
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG

If these dark patches are on the surface, they would not change, where the
camera moved, but if they are deep in the material, does. Still I am be wrong in
this observation, so help of Horace or Craig is needed.

Result: Material is translucent (not like clear ice) and have a limited
penetration width like some muddy mix. Small shades should be very close to the
surface, so they gave no depth view. So the material could be composed by two
layers after cleaned by the RAT. Surface layer is muddy and translucent, deeper
layer more clean.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "SnowDog" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 26 March 2004 05:42
Subject: Re: Life On Ice


> I just made another 3D image. This one's a lot better. It definitely looks
> like a crystal to me. Maybe ice. (Red on Left Eye)
>
> http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm
>
> Craig Haynie

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 11:25:49 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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I goofed again.  The 3D photo I compositied can also be referenced directly as:

<http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/ice3d.jpg>

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 11:35:12 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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At 9:26 PM 3/26/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
[snip]
> So I looked to large dark patches having no distinct
>contours. Et voila! They are different in pictures
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386244EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG
>and
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG
>
>If these dark patches are on the surface, they would not change, where the
>camera moved, but if they are deep in the material, does. Still I am be
>wrong in
>this observation, so help of Horace or Craig is needed.


Looks to me like your are right.  The depth of the fuzzy stuff is actually
very clear in a 3D red-green composite photo viewed with 3D glasses.  Even
though it is fuzzy, it is consistently fuzzy, and the color separation is
much more and the eye sees it as depth.  Even without 3D glasses you can
see the depth via the relative color separation distances in the following:

<http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/ice3d.jpg>

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 12:44:25 2004
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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: Superoxide Anions and Over-Unity Electrolysis Cells?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:42:57 -0800
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Hi Ed,

I can see that you still have not budged far from the mind-set that cold fusion cannot be anything less than real fusion, although now you seem to be a little more open to the prospect of the hydrino. Yes - you may be ultimately proven correct in that conviction (and honestly I hope that you are)... but even if you are, the actual evidence in place now does not warrant it nor does any experiment out there logically lead to your conclusion - so you are really in no better position than any bettor 'playing a hunch.'

Looking at the same plethora of studies over the past 14 years as you have, others who do accept the validity of 'excess heat' can nevertheless be in the position of not believing that fusion is involved - nor any of the explanations or theories that have yet been devised to explain the situation, even that of Mills. 

It is a trap that many observers fall into - that is, to think that when one accepts the experimental findings for an anomaly from the work of a respected researcher, that one must also accept the theory that the experimenter says that he was basing his work on.

When one desires to invoke the "fusion" explanation but can find no high energy photons (which cannot be hidden if they were there) and which are the only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions, then there is a real problem that just will not go away on its own. That lack of gammas should - in and of itself - send the theorist all the way back to 'square one'. Instead, they have more often than not, proceeded onward to concoct even more fantastic rationalizations for the deficiency while steadfastly retaining a firm grip on the 'panacea' of fusion. 

That lack of the clear indicia of fusion, at least in the minds of some of us, is fatal to the entire logic of the explanation - even when transmutation and ash are found. Transmutation of electrodes, or helium ash, etc are not unambiguous - they do NOT necessarily imply fusion unless there are high energy photons as well.

It is just as logical, even more logical, to assume that when excess heat is found along side of transmutation or fusion ash, then whatever unknown mechanism provided the excess heat, also provided the transmutation or ash as a side effect, even provided it endothermically, and not the other way around. 

For instance, if one believed in 'redundant ground state' deuteron shrinkage, which is the point that Mike was making whether you realized it or not, then the excess heat will be provided by the angular momentum of the deuteron's electron in the process of shrinking down to the level that it will eventually either fuse or shed the neutron, which will then be absorbed and later cause an alpha release from the matrix, along with the transmutation. NOTE that both helium, transmutation and excess heat can all occur in this scenario without the necessity of invoking fusion (as the alpha release is a decay reaction, not a fusion reaction).

I am just trying to present all sides of an issue, hopefully in pursuit of scientific truth. Actually I think it is possible to consider that the scenario above, involving the hydrino is itself overly complex. In the case where you have the three variables: excess heat, helium, and transmutation of electrodes, the alternative simplest explanation for all of this is chemical overunity caused by proton metastability, with transmutation and alpha release being caused by the same persistent overmodulation of the field that caused the chemical OU. Until that possibility has been eliminated, it is not logical IMHO to proceed to either the fusion explanation or the hydrino explanation, except in the interest of expediency. 

But, of course, there is also your 'educated guess' and/or that of R. Mills, either of which may turn out to be correct, and let's hope for vanity's sake that fusion is proven to somehow occur in electrolysis without gammas - but until that time, I think it prudent that some of us (who accept the findings of excess heat and are not skeptics of CF or the hydrino), continue to look diligently for other explanations.

> E.S.  "I think it safe to assume that the [cold fusion] reactions cannot be endothermic.  The mechanism is not all that unique."  

Really? Then where - in all of physics - is nuclear fusion found WITHOUT high energy photons? Where else are large megavolt/atom exotherms found without secondary gammas? Yet I can show you plenty of evidence for endothermic nuclear reactions. If you drove your car today, then every ounce of iron in that car was the result of an endothermic nuclear reaction.
 
> E.S. "Bare protons have been made and maintained in this state for "long" times in accelerators and cyclotrons, yet no evidence of anomalous behavior has been reported."

This is simply not true. Anomalies have been reported with bare protons since Lawrence built his first little cyclotron tube "out of brass and sealing wax" in late 1930. The problem is that the energy used to strip the H2 has, in the past, been overwhelming compared to the energy that can theoretically be cohered by the bare proton... therefore, finding anomalies is only possible at the low end of the power scale. Even Lawrence's first tube was 80 kV. 

For instance, if it turned out that the bare proton was cohering 21 cm background radiation through a 4-space interface (an interface where that 21 cm radiation was much more intense then in our 3-space) - it is still only fractional eV radiation - which is miniscule compared to the thousand or so volts often used to strip the H2. So how could it show up unless you were looking for it, or unless you provided an extended time frame in which to 'pump' the fractional eV to a fair proportion of your stripping voltage, or unless you provide a low input method for keeping the proton bare? Protons entering storage rings already have many megavolts of mass-energy so a fractional eV periodic kick is not going to be very obvious for hours or weeks.

Whenever bare proton anomalies have been looked for specifically in lower energy discharges, as in the case of  Alexander Chernetski, they seem to have been found. And even if you don't buy the Chicea/Miley's findings, what about Dash, Bush, Eagleton, Mitsubishi etc? They found light water electrolysis overunity as has Violante and a number of Italian and Japanese investigators? Their success IMHO can be attributed just as easily to a chemical OU "bare proton" explanation as to the hydrino... and either of those two makes more sense than real fusion since there were no deuterons and no gammas. 

Again, I hope you are correct, Ed, but please don't assume that the issue is even close to being resolved and that it won't end up being a major sticking point, when and if DoE gets that far.

Jones

The most wasting but joyful of all human follies is to believe passionately in the palpably true, but tangibly not-yet-true. It is the chief preoccupation of mankind.

 -- with apologies to H.L. Mencken



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 13:27:13 2004
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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:30:49 +0200
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Horace,
I prepared two images for stereographic view from images
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG
and
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386244EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG

I modified the geometry of the first image by resizing it W=1036 ,H=1015 and
rotating it
CCW by 0.9 degree to compensate original camera angle differences. Then I take
the common area and saved to web site
http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/image1.jpg
and
http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/image2.jpg

Images are nearly identical now. I would like you take these images and obtain a
composed 3D image and check it.

I checked their 3D properties by my traditional eye crossing method, and found
very clean and better 3D visualization than the original images. As I said
earlier, 3D features are only at foreground protrusion and around the crack.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 26 March 2004 20:27
Subject: Re: Life On Ice


> Craig Haynie has very graciously posted a 3D image of the subject "Life On
> Ice" as the 3rd photo on page:
>
> <http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm>
>
> It can also be referenced directly as:
>
> <http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/:Hard Disk:424:ice3d.jpg:>
>
> This is a 3D image I composited, using GIMP, from two Spirit Sol 79
> microscopic photos from JPL.  The perspective arises from differing camera
> elevations above the ice, not lateral camera displacement, so the 3D effect
> shows up in a radial fashion, not throughout the photo uniformly.  For this
> reason I rotated the image 90 degrees so that some of the more interesting
> items show up clearly when the left eye has a red filter and the right eye
> blue-green, the typical 3D glasses orientation.  Some features are best
> viewed after rotating the image further, or by rotating the head.
>
> The striking thing is that surface items and subsurface items can be
> clearly distinguished right next to each other in various places.  The
> resulting apparent differing depths can not then be merely due to an
> illusion from image superposition, but rather must be due to real
> geometrical differences in the object space.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 14:25:19 2004
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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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Finally found a transparent depth on this material! This not on the clean area
but below the crack. I switched between two images  repeatedly and when the
background shades become aligned, surface dust moves. I had noted the surface
below the crack was not smooth earlier. It appears the "rock" have many layers.
the Upper layer on this image is a transparent thin layer having some dust
particles attached. This layer is bumpy.  Below this layer is the muddy opaque
or semi opaque layer where the shades take places. This layer have flat upper
surface. Actually it is exposed above the crack. Small protrusion above the
crack appears not part of the layer but attached to the layer and possibly
detached by the force of the RAT without grinding. Still I do not understand how
RAT exposed these glassy layer without scratching it.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 26 March 2004 23:30
Subject: Re: Life On Ice


> Horace,
> I prepared two images for stereographic view from images
> marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG
> and
> marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386244EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG
>
> I modified the geometry of the first image by resizing it W=1036 ,H=1015 and
> rotating it
> CCW by 0.9 degree to compensate original camera angle differences. Then I take
> the common area and saved to web site
> http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/image1.jpg
> and
> http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/image2.jpg
>
> Images are nearly identical now. I would like you take these images and obtain
a
> composed 3D image and check it.
>
> I checked their 3D properties by my traditional eye crossing method, and found
> very clean and better 3D visualization than the original images. As I said
> earlier, 3D features are only at foreground protrusion and around the crack.


Regards,

 hamdi ucar


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--part1_30.5289c831.2d960aaa_boundary
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Hi All - 

When for the last couple of weeks the DOE policy shift was just rumored, I 
didn't expect any mention from Robert Park in his weekly column.  But now even 
the Times has picked it up -- still nothing.  Has he decided that ignoring Cold 
Fusion will make it go away?

Best regards,

Erik Baard

--part1_30.5289c831.2d960aaa_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Hi All - <BR>
<BR>
When for the last couple of weeks the DOE policy shift was just rumored, I d=
idn't expect any mention from Robert Park in his weekly column.&nbsp; But no=
w even the Times has picked it up -- still nothing.&nbsp; Has he decided tha=
t ignoring Cold Fusion will make it go away?<BR>
<BR>
Best regards,<BR>
<BR>
Erik Baard</FONT></HTML>

--part1_30.5289c831.2d960aaa_boundary--

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Jones Beene wrote:

> Hi Ed,
>
> I can see that you still have not budged far from the mind-set that cold fusion cannot be anything less than real fusion, although now you seem to be a little more open to the prospect of the hydrino. Yes - you may be ultimately proven correct in that conviction (and honestly I hope that you are)... but even if you are, the actual evidence in place now does not warrant it nor does any experiment out there logically lead to your conclusion - so you are really in no better position than any bettor 'playing a hunch.'

Jones, you seem to ignore that FACT that nuclear products have been found.  These products require some of the energy to come from their creation.  If additional energy is produced, which has not been demonstrated, then your idea would have value.

>
>
> Looking at the same plethora of studies over the past 14 years as you have, others who do accept the validity of 'excess heat' can nevertheless be in the position of not believing that fusion is involved - nor any of the explanations or theories that have yet been devised to explain the situation, even that of Mills.

Once again, the evidence is consistent with a fusion-type reaction.  Anyone is free to use their imagination to suggest all kinds of strange reactions as a source of additional energy.  So far, evidence is lacking.

>
>
> It is a trap that many observers fall into - that is, to think that when one accepts the experimental findings for an anomaly from the work of a respected researcher, that one must also accept the theory that the experimenter says that he was basing his work on.

It is not a theory that He4 is produced, it is not a theory that the measured energy is within a factor of two of being consistent with a fusion reaction, it is not a theory that tritium is produced, and it is not a theory that transmutation reactions are found that must produce energy.  However, it is a theory that some, as yet, unidentified source of energy is being tapped.

>
>
> When one desires to invoke the "fusion" explanation but can find no high energy photons (which cannot be hidden if they were there) and which are the only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions, then there is a real problem that just will not go away on its own. That lack of gammas should - in and of itself - send the theorist all the way back to 'square one'. Instead, they have more often than not, proceeded onward to concoct even more fantastic rationalizations for the deficiency while steadfastly retaining a firm grip on the 'panacea' of fusion.

Here you are making the assumption.  High energy emissions are not typical of LENR reactions because the energy is effectively coupled to the lattice.  Some energetic particle emission and radiation is detected, presumably from reactions occurring too near the surface to be effectively coupled.  This behavior is the essential difference between cold fusion and hot fusion.

>
>
> That lack of the clear indicia of fusion, at least in the minds of some of us, is fatal to the entire logic of the explanation - even when transmutation and ash are found. Transmutation of electrodes, or helium ash, etc are not unambiguous - they do NOT necessarily imply fusion unless there are high energy photons as well.

Here you insist on your assumption being correct.  I simply look at the data and ask what is the simplest interpretation, without prejudging the outcome.  Obviously, the mechanism for He or transmutation production is unique, but this does not affect the end product nor the amount of resulting energy.  Energy is produced, He is produced and gamma rays are not produced.  Occasionally tritium and neutrons are produced.  These observations tell me that a strange kind of fusion is taking place.  They obviously tell you that some process other than fusion is occurring, a process for which no supporting observation exists, except for the absence of gamma emission.  Seems to me, my data out numbers your data.

>
>
> It is just as logical, even more logical, to assume that when excess heat is found along side of transmutation or fusion ash, then whatever unknown mechanism provided the excess heat, also provided the transmutation or ash as a side effect, even provided it endothermically, and not the other way around.

Perhaps logical to you, but not to me.  I go for the most simple logical explanation every time.

>
>
> For instance, if one believed in 'redundant ground state' deuteron shrinkage, which is the point that Mike was making whether you realized it or not, then the excess heat will be provided by the angular momentum of the deuteron's electron in the process of shrinking down to the level that it will eventually either fuse or shed the neutron, which will then be absorbed and later cause an alpha release from the matrix, along with the transmutation. NOTE that both helium, transmutation and excess heat can all occur in this scenario without the necessity of invoking fusion (as the alpha release is a decay reaction, not a fusion reaction).

I know that people have tried to explain the process.  Some of these explanations have their own problems and strange assumptions.  Nevertheless, the starting state consists of deuterium and the end state consists of helium and energy.  Fusion describes the process.  In light of the Iwamura work, the process appears to involve at least 4 deuterons.  I'm sure other novel features will be discover to show how the fusion reaction can occur.  If you want to propose another kind of reaction, I would welcome some experimental support.

>
>
> I am just trying to present all sides of an issue, hopefully in pursuit of scientific truth. Actually I think it is possible to consider that the scenario above, involving the hydrino is itself overly complex. In the case where you have the three variables: excess heat, helium, and transmutation of electrodes, the alternative simplest explanation for all of this is chemical overunity caused by proton metastability, with transmutation and alpha release being caused by the same persistent overmodulation of the field that caused the chemical OU. Until that possibility has been eliminated, it is not logical IMHO to proceed to either the fusion explanation or the hydrino explanation, except in the interest of expediency.

Hydrino involvement has been part of several mechanisms from the beginning.  The electron shrinks to produce a dineutron, which by a complex interaction generates He, either as an alpha particle from a heavy atom or by interacting with a deuterium.  These mechanisms all are hard to justify because either localized energy and/or a neutrino is required.  In addition, the observed energy is too great for the He to result from alpha emission.

>
>
> But, of course, there is also your 'educated guess' and/or that of R. Mills, either of which may turn out to be correct, and let's hope for vanity's sake that fusion is proven to somehow occur in electrolysis without gammas - but until that time, I think it prudent that some of us (who accept the findings of excess heat and are not skeptics of CF or the hydrino), continue to look diligently for other explanations.

Knock yourself out.  Meanwhile, I'm waiting until the picture becomes clearer before I venture into the theory business.

>
>
> > E.S.  "I think it safe to assume that the [cold fusion] reactions cannot be endothermic.  The mechanism is not all that unique."
>
> Really? Then where - in all of physics - is nuclear fusion found WITHOUT high energy photons? Where else are large megavolt/atom exotherms found without secondary gammas? Yet I can show you plenty of evidence for endothermic nuclear reactions. If you drove your car today, then every ounce of iron in that car was the result of an endothermic nuclear reaction.

Your examples do not apply.  First of all, the absence of energetic radiation is the novel characteristic of LENR.  If such radiation were detected, few people would have a problem believing the claims, and many of us would be dead.  On the other hand, iron is made in a very energy-rich environment where endothermic reactions are possible.  This is not the case of a LENR environment.

>
>
> > E.S. "Bare protons have been made and maintained in this state for "long" times in accelerators and cyclotrons, yet no evidence of anomalous behavior has been reported."
>
> This is simply not true. Anomalies have been reported with bare protons since Lawrence built his first little cyclotron tube "out of brass and sealing wax" in late 1930. The problem is that the energy used to strip the H2 has, in the past, been overwhelming compared to the energy that can theoretically be cohered by the bare proton... therefore, finding anomalies is only possible at the low end of the power scale. Even Lawrence's first tube was 80 kV.

What anomalies are you referring to? When these protons strike a target, is anomalous energy released.  As these protons travel through space, do they emit unusual radiation?  You need to show some kind of justification for believing that a bare proton has unusual properties.

>
>
> For instance, if it turned out that the bare proton was cohering 21 cm background radiation through a 4-space interface (an interface where that 21 cm radiation was much more intense then in our 3-space) - it is still only fractional eV radiation - which is miniscule compared to the thousand or so volts often used to strip the H2. So how could it show up unless you were looking for it, or unless you provided an extended time frame in which to 'pump' the fractional eV to a fair proportion of your stripping voltage, or unless you provide a low input method for keeping the proton bare? Protons entering storage rings already have many megavolts of mass-energy so a fractional eV periodic kick is not going to be very obvious for hours or weeks.

The proton does not start with this high energy nor were all such experiments done using such energies.  Has anyone reported unusual energy being generated by bare protons at any time any where?

>
>
> Whenever bare proton anomalies have been looked for specifically in lower energy discharges, as in the case of  Alexander Chernetski, they seem to have been found. And even if you don't buy the Chicea/Miley's findings, what about Dash, Bush, Eagleton, Mitsubishi etc? They found light water electrolysis overunity as has Violante and a number of Italian and Japanese investigators? Their success IMHO can be attributed just as easily to a chemical OU "bare proton" explanation as to the hydrino... and either of those two makes more sense than real fusion since there were no deuterons and no gammas.

As I said before, the simplest explanation is based on the presence of observed transmutation products.  These would not be expected to produce gamma emission.

>
>
> Again, I hope you are correct, Ed, but please don't assume that the issue is even close to being resolved and that it won't end up being a major sticking point, when and if DoE gets that far.

I hope the DoE does not try to choose an explanation.  That has been the problem all along.  People seem to want an explanation instead of looking at what has been observed.  I hope the DoE only gives credence to what has been observed.  With this support, people will then have the money and support to do the experiments that will eventually result in an explanation.

Ed

>
>
> Jones
>
> The most wasting but joyful of all human follies is to believe passionately in the palpably true, but tangibly not-yet-true. It is the chief preoccupation of mankind.
>
>  -- with apologies to H.L. Mencken

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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew bobpark.org>
> To: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>

 Date: 3/26/2004 1:35:13 PM
 Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, March 26, 2004

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 26 Mar 04   Washington, DC

 1. BUSTED!  THE SORDID STORY BEHIND OUR FABRICATED INTERVIEWS.  
 The heat is on.  A year ago, when New York Times reporter Jayson
 Blair was fired for fabricating interviews, we at WN shrugged it
 off.  It's not like it was the first time a reporter made up a
 story.  Washington Post reporter Janet Cooke got a Pulitzer Prize
 for interviewing people that didn't exist. That was 14 years ago.
 More recently, Stephen Glass was caught fabricating stories for
 New Republic.  We still didn't take it seriously; nobody reads
 New Republic anyway.  But USA Today is America's most-read paper,
 and last week, star reporter Jack Kelly was outed for making news
 up.  On top of that, a WN reader googled "veteran NASA astronaut
 Ann Thropojinic" (WN 12 Mar 04), and came up with zip.  Are we
 about to be exposed?  It's time to come clean: WN has fabricated
 interviews for years.  It gives us full control of a story, and
 it's highly addictive.  Having no experience at confession, WN
 turned to a professional, Mia Culpa, for help. "It's best to be
 indirect," she mused, "perhaps you could reveal the truth in a
 whimsical interview with a fictitious expert."  Thanks Mia.

 2. HUBBLE REPAIR MISSION: "JOHN HENRY WAS A STEEL DRIVIN' MAN." 
 NASA is buried under a blizzard of appeals by people from every
 walk to save Hubble.  The four Hubble repair missions are often
 invoked as proof of the need for a human presence in space, but
 NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe left himself no room to back down
 from his decision to let Hubble die rather than risk a shuttle
 repair mission.  There is a way out.  Why not build a robot that
 could make the repairs?  In principle, a machine can be made to
 perform any mechanical task.  The implications go beyond the
 beloved telescope.  In the end, the machine will always win.  It
 would be an update of the legendary contest between John Henry
  and the Iron Monster.  "And he died with a hammer in his hand."

 3. FAKE NEWS: "IN WASHINGTON, I'M KAREN RYAN SIGNING OFF."
 Eighteen journalism organization have signed a statement asking
 Health and Human Services to stop using video news releases that
 imitate television news stories.  The Bush Administration had
 paid people to pose as journalists praising the new Medicare law. 

 4. ADVERTISING: "WE BRING CLARITY TO COMPEXITY," THE AD CLAIMED.
 A full page ad for Assurant, Inc. in the New York Times had a
 colorful picture of a yo-yo, signifying I know not what.  It
 explained it this way:  

      Gravity: Attractive force between bodies proportional
      to their masses and the distnce between them.


THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. 
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
 You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: aki ix.netcom.com
 To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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> [Original Message]
> From: What's New <whatsnew bobpark.org>
> To: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
 Date: 3/26/2004 1:35:13 PM
 Subject: WHAT'S NEW     Friday, March 26, 2004

 WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 26 Mar 04   Washington, DC

 1. BUSTED!  THE SORDID STORY BEHIND OUR FABRICATED INTERVIEWS.  
 The heat is on.  A year ago, when New York Times reporter Jayson
 Blair was fired for fabricating interviews, we at WN shrugged it
 off.  It's not like it was the first time a reporter made up a
 story.  Washington Post reporter Janet Cooke got a Pulitzer Prize
 for interviewing people that didn't exist. That was 14 years ago.
 More recently, Stephen Glass was caught fabricating stories for
 New Republic.  We still didn't take it seriously; nobody reads
 New Republic anyway.  But USA Today is America's most-read paper,
 and last week, star reporter Jack Kelly was outed for making news
 up.  On top of that, a WN reader googled "veteran NASA astronaut
 Ann Thropojinic" (WN 12 Mar 04), and came up with zip.  Are we
 about to be exposed?  It's time to come clean: WN has fabricated
 interviews for years.  It gives us full control of a story, and
 it's highly addictive.  Having no experience at confession, WN
 turned to a professional, Mia Culpa, for help. "It's best to be
 indirect," she mused, "perhaps you could reveal the truth in a
 whimsical interview with a fictitious expert."  Thanks Mia.

 2. HUBBLE REPAIR MISSION: "JOHN HENRY WAS A STEEL DRIVIN' MAN." 
 NASA is buried under a blizzard of appeals by people from every
 walk to save Hubble.  The four Hubble repair missions are often
 invoked as proof of the need for a human presence in space, but
 NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe left himself no room to back down
 from his decision to let Hubble die rather than risk a shuttle
 repair mission.  There is a way out.  Why not build a robot that
 could make the repairs?  In principle, a machine can be made to
 perform any mechanical task.  The implications go beyond the
 beloved telescope.  In the end, the machine will always win.  It
 would be an update of the legendary contest between John Henry
 and the Iron Monster.  "And he died with a hammer in his hand."

 3. FAKE NEWS: "IN WASHINGTON, I'M KAREN RYAN SIGNING OFF."
 Eighteen journalism organization have signed a statement asking
 Health and Human Services to stop using video news releases that
 imitate television news stories.  The Bush Administration had
 paid people to pose as journalists praising the new Medicare law. 

 4. ADVERTISING: "WE BRING CLARITY TO COMPEXITY," THE AD CLAIMED.
 A full page ad for Assurant, Inc. in the New York Times had a
 colorful picture of a yo-yo, signifying I know not what.  It
 explained it this way:  

      Gravity: Attractive force between bodies proportional
      to their masses and the distance between them.


 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.  
 Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
 University of Maryland, but they should be.
 ---
 Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:25:38 2004
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At 03:28 AM 3/26/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>Horace Heffner posted;
>Perhaps I'm too short sighted, but seems to me that the best that can be
>hoped for is an educated press.

Horace,

I don't think you're too short sighted.  Jed's getting the substance of 
this science out there through LENR-CANR.org.

We're getting the word out to the press in a format they seem to be able to 
understand.

We blasted out a press release on Sunday night regarding the DOE and our 
2004 Cold Fusion Report.  Kenneth Chang contacted us Monday morning, asking 
for a copy.  Tuesday he was on a plane to Montreal chasing down the cold 
fusion researchers at the APS meeting.  On Thursday, he broke new ground 
for a prominent media outlet by demonstrating an understanding that CF is 
a)newsworthy and b)credible.  IMO, that is huge progress and it will enable 
other conventional news media to feel much safer to cover the topic.

A week prior, others who had been communicating with him had the impression 
that Chang thought CF was not newsworthy because CF experimental results 
were not strong enough.  Shift happens.

The science media and general press have been, and will continue to be the 
primary targets for our efforts.
If you or any other Vortexians have particular journalists you'd like us to 
communicate with, please let us know.


Best Regards,


Steven B. Krivit
Nadine Winocur, Psy.D.
New Energy Times
Los Angeles, California, USA
<http://www.newenergytimes.com/>www.newenergytimes.com
Phone: (310) 470-8189
   
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<html>
<body>
At 03:28 AM 3/26/2004 -0600, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Horace Heffner posted;<br>
Perhaps I'm too short sighted, but seems to me that the best that can
be<br>
hoped for is an educated press.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </blockquote><br>
Horace,<br><br>
I don't think you're too short sighted.&nbsp; Jed's getting the substance
of this science out there through LENR-CANR.org.<br><br>
We're getting the word out to the press in a format they seem to be able
to understand.&nbsp; <br><br>
We blasted out a press release on Sunday night regarding the DOE and our
2004 Cold Fusion Report.&nbsp; Kenneth Chang contacted us Monday morning,
asking for a copy.&nbsp; Tuesday he was on a plane to Montreal chasing
down the cold fusion researchers at the APS meeting.&nbsp; On Thursday,
he broke new ground for a prominent media outlet by demonstrating an
understanding that CF is a)newsworthy and b)credible.&nbsp; IMO, that is
huge progress and it will enable other conventional news media to feel
much safer to cover the topic.&nbsp; <br><br>
A week prior, others who had been communicating with him had the
impression that Chang thought CF was <i>not</i> newsworthy because CF
experimental results were not strong enough.&nbsp; Shift
happens.<br><br>
The science media and general press have been, and will continue to be
the primary targets for our efforts.<br>
If you or any other Vortexians have particular journalists you'd like us
to communicate with, please let us know.<br><br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steven B. Krivit<br>
Nadine Winocur, Psy.D.<br>
New Energy Times<br>
Los Angeles, California, USA<br>
<a href="http://www.newenergytimes.com/">www.newenergytimes.com</a><br>
Phone: (310) 470-8189<br>
&nbsp;</body>
</html>

--=====================_1369267187==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:28:31 2004
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It is strange, isn't it? I thought this would be red meat for Park. Maybe 
he will get around to it next week. It is hard to believe he will let it go 
without comment.

Maybe he is just tired of it, or getting old. Someone should ask him.

- Jed


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At 05:37 PM 3/26/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi All -
>
>When for the last couple of weeks the DOE policy shift was just rumored, I 
>didn't expect any mention from Robert Park in his weekly column.  But now 
>even the Times has picked it up -- still nothing.  Has he decided that 
>ignoring Cold Fusion will make it go away?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Erik Baard


Erik,

No kidding...I can't figure that guy out...I was kind of hoping he'd rail 
Nadine and I in this week's "What's New" for how we included him in our 
report...I wouldn't mind some mud slung westward.  I'll take any free PR 
Bob will give us <g>.

My guess is a)he's working behind the scenes to place wrenches in the DOE 
gears or b)he knows we're coming and that he's outnumbered. (wishful 
thinking) or c)he's finally realized what a fool he's made of himself and 
is trying to find a corner?   (wishful thinking again)  But the bottom line 
is, that if enough intelligent people know the truth, it won't matter what 
Bob says.

Regardless, his silence definitely means something, but exactly what is 
anybody's guess.

Steve



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<html>
<body>
At 05:37 PM 3/26/2004 -0500, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font size=2>Hi All - <br><br>
When for the last couple of weeks the DOE policy shift was just rumored,
I didn't expect any mention from Robert Park in his weekly column.&nbsp;
But now even the Times has picked it up -- still nothing.&nbsp; Has he
decided that ignoring Cold Fusion will make it go away?<br><br>
Best regards,<br><br>
Erik Baard</font><font face="arial"> </font></blockquote><br><br>
Erik,<br><br>
No kidding...I can't figure that guy out...I was kind of hoping he'd rail
Nadine and I in this week's &quot;What's New&quot; for how we included
him in our report...I wouldn't mind some mud slung westward.&nbsp; I'll
take any free PR Bob will give us &lt;g&gt;.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>
My guess is a)he's working behind the scenes to place wrenches in the DOE
gears or b)he knows we're coming and that he's outnumbered. (wishful
thinking) or c)he's finally realized what a fool he's made of himself and
is trying to find a corner?&nbsp;&nbsp; (wishful thinking again)&nbsp;
But the bottom line is, that if enough intelligent people know the truth,
it won't matter what Bob says. <br><br>
Regardless, his silence definitely means <i>something</i>, but exactly
what is anybody's guess.<br><br>
<font face="arial">Steve<br><br>
<br>
</font></body>
</html>

--=====================_1370071593==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:39:15 2004
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From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: hidden Mazatzal pieces
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:43:05 +0200
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Horace and Craig,

If you save these pictures and modify gamma correction and examine the shadowy
part, layer pieces of marble white material become visible. Note very bright
dots (excluding defected pixels of camera) impliying some good reflections.
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207496EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207472EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Mar 26 15:41:17 2004
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For Thursday and Friday we had a total of 5,950 downloads. This compares to 
~2,900 (for two days) most weeks. In other words, traffic doubled. I find 
this encouraging. It means that we are reaching much of our potential 
audience already, and the New York Times does not have a substantially 
wider reach than we do, when it comes to the audience for cold fusion 
information.

If the Times were to publish a front-page article declaring that cold 
fusion is real, and the article listed our web site, I suppose we would get 
something like ~30,000 downloads in one day. Something less dramatic and 
direct, such as a fairly positive CF story in their Science section, 
apparently causes ~3,000 extra downloads.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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At 12:29 AM 3/27/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>Finally found a transparent depth on this material! This not on the clean area
>but below the crack. I switched between two images  repeatedly and when the
>background shades become aligned, surface dust moves. I had noted the surface
>below the crack was not smooth earlier. It appears the "rock" have many layers.
>the Upper layer on this image is a transparent thin layer having some dust
>particles attached. This layer is bumpy.  Below this layer is the muddy opaque
>or semi opaque layer where the shades take places. This layer have flat upper
>surface. Actually it is exposed above the crack. Small protrusion above the
>crack appears not part of the layer but attached to the layer and possibly
>detached by the force of the RAT without grinding. Still I do not
>understand how
>RAT exposed these glassy layer without scratching it.


The rover's arm is preheated to over 50 C before any movement.  That is
pretty hot for mars.  Just prior to the photo there was an accidental
attempt to get an xray spectogram with the spectrometer outer window
closed.  That might just account for enough heat to do the final polishing.
All just speculation of course.  The "ice" if it be ice, must be a sulfate
gel of some kind.  It has to have a high salt content plus an ability to
form a protective skin of some kind as it sublimates.

It may be useful to compare the cleaned surface:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M
2M1.JPG>

to the original surface:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/078/2M133286212EFF2232P2957M
2M1.JPG>

that is to say compare:

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/078/2M133286212EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG

The two photos align almost perfectly.  When toggeling back and forth
between overlayed windows, it is easy to tell which features that remain
are remnants of surface features that were removed.  There is no sign of
the deeper fuzzy features.

It appears the long scatch was a long ridge on the original rock.  It is
hard to tell if it is a ridge now or just simply ground flat.  If it is
ground flat then it certainly appears there is at least a shallow layer
that is transparent that shows what was under the ridge.

At 11:30 PM 3/26/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:

>http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/image1.jpg
>and
>http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/image2.jpg
>
>Images are nearly identical now. I would like you take these images and
>obtain a
>composed 3D image and check it.


Done.  Copy attached to another private email.  There are differences in
the images, but no really striking 3D effect.  Has me wondering about my
prior observations.  It could be obsidian or even a volcanic glass of some
kind.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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At 1:43 AM 3/27/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>Horace and Craig,
>
>If you save these pictures and modify gamma correction and examine the shadowy
>part, layer pieces of marble white material become visible. Note very bright
>dots (excluding defected pixels of camera) impliying some good reflections.
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207496EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207472EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
>
>Regards, hamdi ucar


An interresting find!  When I brighten up the image so as to see in the
shadow portion I see a line of light spots.  I would have said they are due
to light relfecting off bright metal parts of the rover.  However, it is
very strange the light seems to follow or extend a large crack in the rock.

Since we are having fun with outlandish speculations, here is one.  It may
be possible the light in the line of light spots is coming from inside the
rock. It may be coming through the crack in the rock, which is covered in
part here and there with dirt, etc.  This would mean that the rock is made
of transparent material, and there is an opening somewhere for light to get
into the rock, or that the dirt covering  the rock is somewhat translucent.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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At 1:43 AM 3/27/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>Horace and Craig,
>
>If you save these pictures and modify gamma correction and examine the shadowy
>part, layer pieces of marble white material become visible. Note very bright
>dots (excluding defected pixels of camera) impliying some good reflections.
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207496EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207472EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
>
>Regards, hamdi ucar

The bright spots in the shadows do not seem to be reflections.  They are
still there after the rock grind and at the same locations despite a new
sun angle.  See:

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/081/2P133566427EFF2232P2589L
7M1.JPG>

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/081/2P133566427EFF2232P2589L7M1.JPG

Note how places in the grind spots seem like they might their own backlight
as well.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: capacitance and cold fusion
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--part1_106.2e127f35.2d96c7fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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<h4> A NOTE ON HOT FUSION </h4>

The hot fusion community understands the concept of the isotropic capacitance 
of
the nuclues.  They keep the electrostatic potential of the nucleus low by 
selecting nucleons
with only a single electrical charge.  They reduce the potential
produced by this charge by selecting isotopes with the greatest
size.  This larger size of hydrogen's deuterium isotope increases the 
isotropic 
capacitance of the nucleus and lowers the height of 
the electrostatic potential wall.  At this point they
abandoned the concept of capacitance and smashed deuterions together for 50 
years.  
They failed to understand that capacitance is not a local phenomena.  The 
height
of the electrostatic potential wall is influenced by the geometry of the 
system.
For example, an electron within a conducting sphere experiences the isotropic 
capacitance
of the entire sphere.  The nucleons within this sphere do not experience this 
capacitance because they are
not free to move about.  The cold fusion community has shown us that the 
mobile
nucleons within proton conductors do experience the isotropic capacitance of 
the quantum
system.  They normally do not fuse because their velocity is very low. Forced 
diffusion experiments 
conducted by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in Japan have produced anamolous 
nuclear reactions.
<sub><A HREF="#notes">7  </a></sub> 
These experiments introduced velocity into the system.  The velocity is great 
enough to overcome
the reduced potential barrier of the mobile protons.  
<br><br>
The stimulation of a proton conductor at
a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter introduces superconductivity 
into the system.
The strong, weak, electromagnetic, and gravitational participate in the 
superconductive system.

--part1_106.2e127f35.2d96c7fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">&lt;h4&gt; A NOTE ON HOT FUSION &lt=
;/h4&gt;<BR>
<BR>
The hot fusion community understands the concept of the isotropic capacitanc=
e of<BR>
the nuclues.&nbsp; They keep the electrostatic potential of the nucleus low=20=
by selecting nucleons<BR>
with only a single electrical charge.&nbsp; They reduce the potential<BR>
produced by this charge by selecting isotopes with the greatest<BR>
size.&nbsp; This larger size of hydrogen's deuterium isotope increases the i=
sotropic <BR>
capacitance of the nucleus and lowers the height of <BR>
the electrostatic potential wall.&nbsp; At this point they<BR>
abandoned the concept of capacitance and smashed deuterions together for 50=20=
years.&nbsp; <BR>
They failed to understand that capacitance is not a local phenomena.&nbsp; T=
he height<BR>
of the electrostatic potential wall is influenced by the geometry of the sys=
tem.<BR>
For example, an electron within a conducting sphere experiences the isotropi=
c capacitance<BR>
of the entire sphere.&nbsp; The nucleons within this sphere do not experienc=
e this capacitance because they are<BR>
not free to move about.&nbsp; The cold fusion community has shown us that th=
e mobile<BR>
nucleons within proton conductors do experience the isotropic capacitance of=
 the quantum<BR>
system.&nbsp; They normally do not fuse because their velocity is very low.=20=
Forced diffusion experiments <BR>
conducted by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in Japan have produced anamolous nu=
clear reactions.<BR>
&lt;sub&gt;&lt;A HREF=3D"#notes"&gt;7&nbsp; &lt;/a&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; <BR>
These experiments introduced velocity into the system.&nbsp; The velocity is=
 great enough to overcome<BR>
the reduced potential barrier of the mobile protons.&nbsp; <BR>
&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<BR>
The stimulation of a proton conductor at<BR>
a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter introduces superconductivity=20=
into the system.<BR>
The strong, weak, electromagnetic, and gravitational participate in the supe=
rconductive system.<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_106.2e127f35.2d96c7fe_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 27 05:08:49 2004
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Subject: Re: New York Times spike at LENR-CANR.org
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 3/26/04 6:41 PM, "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com> wrote:

> If the Times were to publish a front-page article declaring that cold
> fusion is real, and the article listed our web site, I suppose we would get
> something like ~30,000 downloads in one day. Something less dramatic and
> direct, such as a fairly positive CF story in their Science section,
> apparently causes ~3,000 extra downloads.


It was not not in the Science Times Section (which is on Tuesday always). It
was on page A16 - the main section, where more people would be likely to see
it.

 - Gene Mallove,   www.infinite-energy.com

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It's getting pretty difficult to deny, eh?


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=505454



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While looking for my elusive earth worms in Opportunity's photos, I obtained a
pair of photos with large offset, having a small overlapping region. But this
large offset gave very good 3D depth, allowing seeing some structures rising
from the soil consisting of a very thin stem and a head. I am sure I had seen
similar thing rising on decaying tree bodies.
I chose images
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133070194EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG
and
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133069592EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG
from page http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m055.html
These feature can be seen better along the light area.

You can also see the blueberry how it is attached to the soil from the left
side.

While searching the web to find a similar looking earth species I encountered a
picture of "Penicillium strand" at
http://www.dstgroup.com/DST%20Mould%20Analysis%20pics.pdf in figure 6. This
strands looks is similar size of the filaments which I have no difficulty to
find on most of microscopic images.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

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The only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions is gamma =
radiation.=20

Sure, the element helium can conceivably be derived from an extremely =
unlikely form of fusion, but it is infinitely more likely to be found =
from a plethora of other innocuous sources. The appearance of helium is =
ALWAY ambiguous evidence for fusion, no matter how well it correlates to =
excess energy UNLESS the statistical correlation can be framed to be =
arguably absolute. In point of fact, the correlation is shaky even in =
those few excess-heat experiments where helium is found in rough =
proportion to excess energy, but most damning is that in much, probably =
most of the highest quality CF work done in the 1990s, the major ash =
component was tritium, such as found in careful experiments done by =
Claytor and others with almost no helium except that which decayed from =
tritium. Tritium, of course, releases gamma radiation.

Helium is ubiquitous- not surprising since it is the second most common =
element in the universe; it is found everywhere on earth, in air, =
natural gas, all kinds of radioactive decay and in many manufactured =
product where natural gas was used in processing, such as stainless =
steel and the rubber seals of vacuum chambers. Also, in testing there =
are pitfalls - to detect He in a mass spec is somewhat difficult because =
of the mass similarity to molecular deuterium. That problem would fall =
under the category of "measurement error" and is not relevant to broader =
theoretical implications.

Helium is also the smallest molecule (since the molecule is monatomic) =
and so mobile and hard to contain or EXCLUDE from any container, in that =
it can go INTO any vacuum chamber from environmental air over time. This =
mass transfer process doesn't require a loose seal necessarily, as many =
metals are porous to helium, especially after mechanical degradation, =
such as years of flexing every time you start up the turbo pump.=20

The air we breathe consists of one part in 200,000 helium, but in trying =
to "rewrite" mother nature, you will find some researchers who will say =
that it is less than that, or even "de minimis" - so that its real =
ubiquity is ignored so as to better fit into an agenda. Sorry, helium is =
one part in 200,000 in air which means that for every breath you take, =
you will exhale approximately 500,000,000,000,000,000 helium atoms. If =
this was found to be in rough correlation to the energy your body was =
burning during that breath (actually it is not far off) does that then =
mean that your metabolism was working on D+D fusion? I think not.

Consequently to say that helium was found in rough proportion to excess =
energy in a ratio of one million helium atoms for every for every 38 =
ergs of excess energy in a particular experiment, will appear to a =
skeptic of cold fusion as really meaningless, and therefore the =
explanation itself may tend to negate the excellent experimental =
results. In short, the experimenter would be better off to NOT choose =
that explanation... perhaps, not to even look for helium in the first =
place.

When one becomes so tied to a particular principle, and so desirous to =
invoke the "fusion" explanation for findings of excess energy, but can =
find no high energy photons (which cannot be hidden if they were there) =
and which are the only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions, =
then there is a great incentive to grasp at other explanations to cope =
with this problem. A current favorite rationalization for this is to say =
that the energy emission is effectively "coupled to the lattice." But is =
there any evidence for this happening elsewhere in all of physics?

Yes, if you google such phrases as "lattice coupling" you will get =
several thousand hits ! So, has a proper defense for lack of gammas been =
magically found? Only if you don't read on to find that almost all of =
that research involves ELECTRON-LATTICE coupling, not nuclear coupling. =
Outside of the cold fusion arena, I can find no good references to the =
existence of high probability nuclear coupling - that is, there exist =
some kinds of extremely low energy (Mossbauer effect) and/or low =
probability phenomena are said to be evidence of lattice coupling. That =
is doubtful in itself, but for the sake of argument, lets say it is =
evidence of nuclear coupling. In the Mossbauer effect, look carefully at =
the ratio- one may get one coupling per million atoms depending on how =
low a temperature you have, and even so - is that process transferable =
to CF, and wouldn't it still leave lots of detectable 24 MeV gammas from =
deuterium fusion, not to mention the secondaries. In effect, you would =
still have the dead graduate assistant unless the coupling cross-section =
could be pushed extremely high, which will never happen at elevated =
temperature.

Inside the CF area - if you look at the old Sci.physics.fusion arguments =
such as those by dyed-in-the-wool skeptic Richard Blue (who I find it a =
bit detestable to quote, except that in this case he is correct), you =
will find this following argument. Unfortunately there has been little =
effective counter-argument to his main contention on the extreme rarity =
of nuclear lattice-coupling.

"Both Mitchell Swartz and Bob Cormach seem to want to apply a simple =
null test to this question. For them the lattice-nucleus coupling either =
exists or it does not exist. Then as their logic would have it, any =
demonstration of the existence of this coupling in even one case is =
sufficient to "prove" that cold fusion is really occurring wherever we =
want it to occur.  No further test of the cold fusion hypothesis is =
required!"

"The Swartz approach to the lattice-nucleus coupling is not acceptable =
physics in my book.  I acknowledge that there are many circumstances in =
which such couplings are clearly demonstrated.  In fact a great deal of =
nuclear physics and solid state physics investigations have made use of =
this couplings as probes to investigate some very intricate details of =
nuclear and/or atomic structures.  As a prime example one need only =
mention Nuclear Magnetic Resonance - MRI to some of you perhaps.  I also =
would not leave out Mitchell's favorite, Mossbauer Effect."

"What I would suggest is that we need to move beyond the mere existence =
of a nuclear-lattice coupling to a discussion of the quantitative =
aspects of such couplings.  If one assigns an energy scale to the =
various known couplings there is a pattern that is worth noting.  The =
energies involved in nuclear-lattice couplings are not very big.  They =
don't have very large effects on the nuclear states involved.  Now is =
such experimental data something we can simply ignore?  I claim that all =
the experimental data that addresses this question has to be considered =
and given weight appropriately along with the CF calorimetry data.  To =
my mind it defies logic to assert that this body of experimental data =
should be ignored in this discussion.  The evidence clearly indicates =
that nuclear-lattice couplings are, at most, small perturbations on =
nuclear states.  Is there anyone who would challenge that statement as a =
good summary for the vast
body of data available?" END of quote

I think anyone can easily see that two points have been made in this and =
other related posts (and never countered effectively). The points are =
that outside of cold fusion, that nuclear lattice-coupling is a low =
energy. low probability phenomenon - far from a "bulk" or common event. =
For it to be the prime reason that gammas are not found would imply that =
it happens *most of the time* in CF, but nowhere else in all of physics =
- as even in the best of circumstances it is a rare event. Moreover, the =
24 MeV photon is so incredibly potent and detectable (and deadly) that =
it would stick out like a sore thumb in situations where many joules of =
excess heat were released unless the coupling were nearly absolute.=20

Bottom line - by invoking lattice coupling, the apologist is =
piggybacking one even more debilitating controversy on top of another.=20

Why penalize your good experimental results with such a lame theory?=20

Jones

If you want to invoke phonon or lattice coupling, then first set up an =
experiment where you can show that nuclear lattice coupling is high =
probability and happens most of the time in similar situations. =
Unfortunately, one relevant experiment has actually been performed and =
it is null. When one loads tritium into a Pd lattice, the decay gammas =
are still measurable and correlate well with what theory says they =
should be - how could this be true if Pd somehow promotes nuclear =
lattice coupling?

Can't everyone see the problem? We know that radioactive hydrogen =
(tritium) is not coupled to any degree in a Pd matrix and cannot even be =
induced to couple, so how can the thousand-fold higher radiation levels =
of deuterium fusion be said to ever couple, and especially to couple so =
well that ZERO  24 MeV gammas can be measured?





 =20

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<DIV>The only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions is gamma =
radiation.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sure, the element helium can conceivably be derived from an =
extremely=20
unlikely form of fusion, but&nbsp;it is infinitely more likely to be=20
found&nbsp;from a plethora of other innocuous sources.&nbsp;The =
appearance of=20
helium&nbsp;is ALWAY ambiguous evidence for fusion, no matter how well =
it=20
correlates to excess energy UNLESS the statistical correlation can be =
framed to=20
be arguably&nbsp;absolute. In point of fact, the correlation is shaky =
even in=20
those few excess-heat experiments where helium is found in rough =
proportion to=20
excess energy, but most damning is that in much, probably most of the =
highest=20
quality CF work done in the 1990s, the major ash component was tritium, =
such=20
as&nbsp;found in careful experiments done by Claytor and others with =
almost no=20
helium except that which decayed from tritium. Tritium, of course, =
releases=20
gamma radiation.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Helium is ubiquitous- not surprising since it is the second most =
common=20
element in the universe; it is found everywhere on earth, in air,=20
natural&nbsp;gas,&nbsp;all kinds of radioactive decay and in many =
manufactured=20
product where natural gas was used in processing, such as stainless =
steel and=20
the rubber seals of vacuum chambers. Also, in testing there are pitfalls =

-&nbsp;to detect He in a mass spec is somewhat difficult because of the =
mass=20
similarity to molecular deuterium. That problem would fall under the =
category of=20
"measurement error" and&nbsp;is not relevant to broader&nbsp;theoretical =

implications.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Helium is also the smallest molecule (since the molecule is =
monatomic) and=20
so mobile and hard to contain or EXCLUDE from any container, in that it =
can go=20
INTO any vacuum chamber from environmental air over time.&nbsp;This mass =

transfer process doesn't require a loose seal necessarily, as many =
metals are=20
porous to helium, especially after mechanical degradation, such as years =
of=20
flexing every time you start up the turbo pump. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The air we breathe consists of one part in 200,000 helium, but in =
trying to=20
"rewrite" mother nature, you will find some researchers who will say =
that it is=20
less than that, or even "de minimis" -&nbsp;so that its real =
ubiquity&nbsp;is=20
ignored so as to better fit into an agenda. =
Sorry,&nbsp;helium&nbsp;is&nbsp;one=20
part in 200,000 in air which means that for every breath you take, you =
will=20
exhale approximately&nbsp;500,000,000,000,000,000 helium atoms. If this =
was=20
found to be in rough correlation to the energy your body =
was&nbsp;burning during=20
that breath (actually it is not far off) does that then mean that your=20
metabolism was working on D+D fusion? I think not.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Consequently to say that helium was found in rough proportion to =
excess=20
energy in a ratio of&nbsp;one million helium atoms&nbsp;for every for =
every 38=20
ergs of excess energy in a particular experiment, will appear to a =
skeptic of=20
cold fusion as really meaningless, and therefore the explanation itself =
may tend=20
to negate the excellent experimental results. In short, the experimenter =
would=20
be better off to NOT choose that explanation... perhaps, not to even =
look for=20
helium in the first place.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When one&nbsp;becomes so tied to a particular principle, and so =
desirous to=20
invoke the "fusion" explanation for findings of excess energy, but can =
find no=20
high energy photons (which cannot be hidden if they were there) and =
which are=20
the only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions, then there is a =
great=20
incentive to grasp at other explanations to cope with this problem. A =
current=20
favorite rationalization for this is to say that the energy emission is=20
effectively "coupled to the lattice." But is there any evidence for this =

happening elsewhere in all of physics?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Yes, if you google such phrases as "lattice coupling" you will get =
several=20
thousand hits ! So, has a proper defense for lack of gammas been =
magically=20
found? Only if you don't read on to find that almost all of that =
research=20
involves ELECTRON-LATTICE coupling, not nuclear coupling. Outside of the =
cold=20
fusion arena, I can find&nbsp;no good references to the existence of =
high=20
probability nuclear coupling - that is, there exist some kinds of=20
extremely&nbsp;low energy (Mossbauer effect) and/or low probability =
phenomena=20
are said to be evidence of lattice coupling.&nbsp;That is doubtful in =
itself,=20
but for the sake of argument, lets say it is evidence of nuclear =
coupling. In=20
the&nbsp;Mossbauer effect, look carefully at the ratio- one may get one =
coupling=20
per million atoms depending on how low a temperature you have, and even =
so - is=20
that process transferable to CF, and wouldn't it&nbsp;still leave lots =
of=20
detectable 24 MeV gammas from deuterium fusion, not to mention the =
secondaries.=20
In effect, you would still have the dead graduate assistant unless the =
coupling=20
cross-section could be pushed extremely high, which will never happen at =

elevated temperature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Inside the CF area - if you look at the old Sci.physics.fusion =
arguments=20
such as those by dyed-in-the-wool skeptic Richard Blue (who I find it a =
bit=20
detestable to quote, except that in this case he is correct), you will =
find this=20
following argument. Unfortunately there has been little effective=20
counter-argument to his main contention&nbsp;on the extreme rarity of =
nuclear=20
lattice-coupling.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Both Mitchell Swartz and Bob Cormach seem to want to apply a =
simple null=20
test to this question. For them the lattice-nucleus coupling either =
exists or it=20
does not exist. Then as their logic would have it, any demonstration of =
the=20
existence of this coupling in even one case is sufficient to "prove" =
that cold=20
fusion is really occurring wherever we want it to occur.&nbsp; No =
further test=20
of the cold fusion hypothesis is required!"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"The Swartz approach to the lattice-nucleus coupling is not =
acceptable=20
physics in my book.&nbsp; I acknowledge that there are many =
circumstances in=20
which such couplings are clearly demonstrated.&nbsp; In fact a great =
deal of=20
nuclear physics and solid state physics investigations have made use of =
this=20
couplings as probes to investigate some very intricate details of =
nuclear and/or=20
atomic structures.&nbsp; As a prime example one need only mention =
Nuclear=20
Magnetic Resonance - MRI to some of you perhaps.&nbsp; I also would not =
leave=20
out Mitchell's favorite, Mossbauer Effect."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"What I would suggest is that we need to move beyond the mere =
existence of=20
a nuclear-lattice coupling to a discussion of the quantitative aspects =
of such=20
couplings.&nbsp; If one assigns an energy scale to the various known =
couplings=20
there is a pattern that is worth noting.&nbsp; The energies involved in=20
nuclear-lattice couplings are not very big.&nbsp; They don't have very =
large=20
effects on the nuclear states involved.&nbsp; Now is such experimental =
data=20
something we can simply ignore?&nbsp; I claim that all the experimental =
data=20
that addresses this question has to be considered and given weight =
appropriately=20
along with the CF calorimetry data.&nbsp; To my mind it defies logic to =
assert=20
that this body of experimental data should be ignored in this =
discussion.&nbsp;=20
The evidence clearly indicates that nuclear-lattice couplings are, at =
most,=20
small perturbations on nuclear states.&nbsp; Is there anyone who would =
challenge=20
that statement as a good summary for the vast<BR>body of data =
available?" END of=20
quote</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I think anyone can easily see that two points have been =
made&nbsp;in this=20
and other related posts (and&nbsp;never countered effectively). The =
points are=20
that outside of cold fusion,&nbsp;that nuclear lattice-coupling is a low =
energy.=20
low probability phenomenon - far from a "bulk" or common event. For it =
to be the=20
prime reason that gammas are not found would imply that it happens *most =
of the=20
time* in CF, but nowhere else in all of physics - as even in the best of =

circumstances it is a rare event. Moreover, the 24 MeV photon is so =
incredibly=20
potent and detectable (and deadly) that it would stick out like a sore =
thumb in=20
situations where many joules of excess heat were released unless the =
coupling=20
were nearly absolute. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Bottom line - by invoking lattice coupling, the apologist is =
piggybacking=20
one even more debilitating controversy on top of another. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Why penalize your good experimental results with such a lame =
theory? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If you want to invoke phonon or lattice coupling, then first set up =
an=20
experiment where you can show that nuclear lattice coupling is high =
probability=20
and happens most of the time in similar situations. Unfortunately, one =
relevant=20
experiment has actually been performed and it is null.&nbsp;When one =
loads=20
tritium into a Pd lattice, the decay gammas are still measurable and =
correlate=20
well with what theory says they should be - how could this be=20
true&nbsp;if&nbsp;Pd somehow promotes nuclear =
lattice&nbsp;coupling?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Can't everyone see the problem? We know that radioactive hydrogen =
(tritium)=20
is not coupled to any degree in a Pd matrix and cannot even be induced =
to=20
couple, so how can the thousand-fold higher radiation levels of =
deuterium fusion=20
be said to ever couple, and especially to couple so well that ZERO&nbsp; =
24 MeV=20
gammas can be measured?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 27 10:24:10 2004
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From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Some microscopic 3D features
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 20:25:55 +0200
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Better pair are
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133070133EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133069653EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133070133EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133069653EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG

Even some micro-fiber like things are visible in 3D. In non overlapping regions
there are more longer of them. These fiber appear to holding evenly spaced
particles. Could be some spors? The whole scene contain rounded particle in a
matrix. It is hardly to believe these are ordinary dust. I am not sure but mars
dust particles could be too fine to be observed by this camera.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

> While looking for my elusive earth worms in Opportunity's photos, I obtained a
> pair of photos with large offset, having a small overlapping region. But this
> large offset gave very good 3D depth, allowing seeing some structures rising
> from the soil consisting of a very thin stem and a head. I am sure I had seen
> similar thing rising on decaying tree bodies.
> I chose images
> marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133070194EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG
> and
> marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133069592EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG
> from page http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m055.html
> These feature can be seen better along the light area.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 27 10:27:46 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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At 1:43 AM 3/27/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>Horace and Craig,
>
>If you save these pictures and modify gamma correction and examine the shadowy
>part, layer pieces of marble white material become visible. Note very bright
>dots (excluding defected pixels of camera) impliying some good reflections.
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207496EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207472EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
>
>Regards, hamdi ucar

The bright spots in the shadows were almost certainly made by the rover's
weels.  They are an extension of the left side of the left wheel track that
goes up on the rock.   It looks like the bright spots were made as a result
of the sharp edges of the weels cutting into the rock.  It would seem the
rock is not so hard, though the NASA press release for the day for Spirit
implies it is harder than other rocks Spirit has ground.  Maybe the bright
marks are not in Mazatzal, but some other rock?  There are lots of cracks
in the rocks there, so it is hard to tell what is a given rock, but the
bright spots are definitely on ehte surface of a rock.  The two grind/brush
circles are definitely right above and just to the left of the bright
spots.

In effect the bright spots could be reflections, but not like from a single
mirrored surface, but more like from bright blue snow.  It appears the
stuff is blue. Coincidentally glacial ice is also often blue, but ice on
Mars, if any of the immediate subsurface stuff is ice, must have a lot of
dissolved salts in it that may color it.

<http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/081/2P133566427EFF2232P2589L
7M1.JPG>

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/081/2P133566427EFF2232P2589L7M1.JPG

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 27 March 2004 20:34
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces


> In effect the bright spots could be reflections, but not like from a single
> mirrored surface, but more like from bright blue snow.  It appears the
> stuff is blue. Coincidentally glacial ice is also often blue, but ice on
> Mars, if any of the immediate subsurface stuff is ice, must have a lot of
> dissolved salts in it that may color it.
> 

Could salts be dissolved (distributed in molecular level) in water ice?

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(2nd try)

It's getting pretty difficult to deny, eh?


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=505454

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<

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Another possible helium producing mechanism
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:45:07 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

The charge on a helium nucleus will precisely balance that of two deuterino deuteride ions. This would allow a helium nucleus to function as a nuclear catalytic site, as the two severely shrunken deuterinodeuteride (D-) ions can, once attached to the helium nucleus, and thus in permanent close proximity to one another, fuse with one another resulting in a new helium nucleus. The energy resulting from the reaction would be shared by both helium nuclei (the original, and the new one), and by the spare electrons as would the momentum.
Hence this reaction produces pure He4, while both energy and momentum are conserved.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 27 16:32:04 2004
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From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Some microscopic 3D features on Mars
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 03:35:13 +0300
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While looking for my elusive earth worms in Opportunity's photos, I obtained a
pair of photos for 3D vision with large offset, having a small overlapping
region.

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133070133EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/055/1M133069653EFF06GOP2956M2M1.JPG
from page http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m055.html

Large offset gave very good 3D depth, allowing to see some structures rising
from the soil consisting of a very thin stem and a head. I am sure I have seen
similar things growing on decaying tree bodies.

These features can be seen better along the light colored area.

Another interesting item here is the sphere like feature (kind of blueberry). It
appears it is not standing on the surface but  attached to the soil from the
left side trough a mesh like structure. This is accordance of some other
pictures of BB's.

Some micro-fiber like things are also visible in 3D. In non overlapping regions
there are more longer of them. These fibers appears to holding evenly spaced
particles. Could be some dust or spores?

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 27 16:44:56 2004
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Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:44:45 +1200
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
References: <v01530500bc8ad9566c2c [12.21.209.14]>
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Why not use tinyurl.com
It took me 2 seconds to make this link: http://tinyurl.com/23app

Horace Heffner wrote:

>At 1:43 AM 3/27/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>  
>
>>Horace and Craig,
>>
>>If you save these pictures and modify gamma correction and examine the shadowy
>>part, layer pieces of marble white material become visible. Note very bright
>>dots (excluding defected pixels of camera) impliying some good reflections.
>>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207496EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
>>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/077/2P133207472EFF2232P2871L7M1.HTML
>>
>>Regards, hamdi ucar
>>    
>>
>
>The bright spots in the shadows were almost certainly made by the rover's
>weels.  They are an extension of the left side of the left wheel track that
>goes up on the rock.   It looks like the bright spots were made as a result
>of the sharp edges of the weels cutting into the rock.  It would seem the
>rock is not so hard, though the NASA press release for the day for Spirit
>implies it is harder than other rocks Spirit has ground.  Maybe the bright
>marks are not in Mazatzal, but some other rock?  There are lots of cracks
>in the rocks there, so it is hard to tell what is a given rock, but the
>bright spots are definitely on ehte surface of a rock.  The two grind/brush
>circles are definitely right above and just to the left of the bright
>spots.
>
>In effect the bright spots could be reflections, but not like from a single
>mirrored surface, but more like from bright blue snow.  It appears the
>stuff is blue. Coincidentally glacial ice is also often blue, but ice on
>Mars, if any of the immediate subsurface stuff is ice, must have a lot of
>dissolved salts in it that may color it.
>
><http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/081/2P133566427EFF2232P2589L
>7M1.JPG>
>
>marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/081/2P133566427EFF2232P2589L7M1.JPG
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>
>
>  
>

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From: "SnowDog" <SnowDog GoldDirectory.com>
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Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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> In effect the bright spots could be reflections, but not like from a
single
> mirrored surface, but more like from bright blue snow.  It appears the
> stuff is blue. Coincidentally glacial ice is also often blue, but ice on
> Mars, if any of the immediate subsurface stuff is ice, must have a lot of
> dissolved salts in it that may color it.

How can you tell if something is blue? Without access to the calibration
data, the only way to determine if something is blue is to calibrate the sky
against the mirrors on the color wheel, for that day, or to try to calibrate
a spot in the soil against the spectra analysis made by JPL on Day 3. Each
filtered image has its maximum and minimum values adjusted to the highest
and lowest values possible, to improve the compression performance before
transmission. Because the blue filtered image is the darkest, it's value is
exagerated the most in the filtered image. We need calibration data, which
we don't have, to bring the color back to the correct value.

Craig Haynie

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 27 18:16:56 2004
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I am puzzled by these dark colored knotted or twisted string looking features
appearing in many soil microscopic pictures but marginally visible. I am puzzled
because they can be easily mixed by shadows and they appear always in crests,
not crossing over things. So it is difficult to find solid evidence they are
indeed some objects. There are also a similar things, black mesh like patches
take place also in crusts and having string like character. Despite these are
clearly visible, it is difficult to identify them as real objects. These items
appears never present on outside of crusts. For this reason they look like to
earth worm. I placed an pictures pointing possible features of these items. I
marked with blue some of them and with red some dark clusters and more
suspicious ones. The main problem, once I start to sport them they appears in
every place, and I start to suspect from false recognition.

Analysed pictures are
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/052/1M132808705EFF06A8P2956M2M1.JPG
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/052/1M132808645EFF06A8P2956M2M1.JPG
 covering same scene with a slightly different focus.

Marked image is
http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/1m132808705eff06a8p2956m2m1-x.jpg
because it was jpg'ed second time, it should not be used for analyse.
It is better to analyse images by 2x magnification.

Another analyse image from the same scene is
http://orchestra.webhostme.com/images/organic.gif
showing another specie. I would like ask if this feature could be an evidence
for an organic material?

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 27 22:49:01 2004
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:48:47 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:07:18 -0900:
Hi,

>At 7:55 PM 3/22/4, thomas malloy wrote:
>>How does the angle of incidence affect the amount of energy that the
>>asteroid would release?
>
>
>This seems like a trick question. 8^)
>
>All the caluclations provided earlier assume only the mechanical energy due
>to momentum gained by a meteor from approaching the earth.  Mechanical
>energy is conserved, so there would be a fixed amount of energy expended
>from any impact under that scenario, regardless of the angle of incidence.
>That assumes actual impact, not a glancing blow of some kind, which would
>be very unlikely anyway.
[snip]
Perhaps Thomas was referring to the angle with relation to the Earth's orbit around the Sun? If it approached in the plane of the ecliptic, in a retrograde orbit, then you can add the velocity of the Earth (~30 km/sec) to that of the meteor, which makes for a much bigger splash.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Mar 27 22:52:14 2004
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mars UFO
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:51:56 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <7btc601su6eghp43n14bpfhq64e9mu879v 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Erikbaard aol.com's message of Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:27:32 -0500 (EST):
Hi,
[snip]

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3520636.stm

If the UFO is one of ours, then it should be in a fixed orbit, and hence the next  occurrence is predictable. Just tell Spirit to look in the right spot when it comes around again (perhaps a couple of times?). If it never shows up, then it's one of their's. :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 03:21:27 2004
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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:25:06 +0300
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New pictures are posted showing  microscopic pictures after 3 hours of grinding
at
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/spirit_m082.html

Grinding edges appears to expose these layers. Initial guess of ice look like be
correct.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 27 March 2004 01:29
Subject: Re: Life On Ice


> Finally found a transparent depth on this material! This not on the clean area
> but below the crack. I switched between two images  repeatedly and when the
> background shades become aligned, surface dust moves. I had noted the surface
> below the crack was not smooth earlier. It appears the "rock" have many
layers.
> the Upper layer on this image is a transparent thin layer having some dust
> particles attached. This layer is bumpy.  Below this layer is the muddy opaque
> or semi opaque layer where the shades take places. This layer have flat upper
> surface. Actually it is exposed above the crack. Small protrusion above the
> crack appears not part of the layer but attached to the layer and possibly
> detached by the force of the RAT without grinding. Still I do not understand
how
> RAT exposed these glassy layer without scratching it.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <hamdix iris.com.tr>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: 26 March 2004 23:30
> Subject: Re: Life On Ice
>
>
> > Horace,
> > I prepared two images for stereographic view from images
> > marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386588EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG
> > and
> > marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/m/079/2M133386244EFF2232P2957M2M1.JPG
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 07:23:02 2004
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> I am puzzled by these dark colored knotted or twisted string looking
features
> appearing in many soil microscopic pictures but marginally visible. I am
puzzled
> because they can be easily mixed by shadows and they appear always in
crests,
> not crossing over things. So it is difficult to find solid evidence they
are
> indeed some objects. There are also a similar things, black mesh like
patches
> take place also in crusts and having string like character. Despite these
are
> clearly visible, it is difficult to identify them as real objects. These
items
> appears never present on outside of crusts. For this reason they look like
to
> earth worm. I placed an pictures pointing possible features of these
items. I
> marked with blue some of them and with red some dark clusters and more
> suspicious ones. The main problem, once I start to sport them they appears
in
> every place, and I start to suspect from false recognition.

You are correct to be cautious in interpreting these images, for the human
visual and nervous system is very good at pattern recognition, almost to the
extent of seeing patterns were there are none, as costellations in the night
sky. Also, essential details may be buried in the JPEG compression, which is
lossy. Other images of the Martial soil are very granular, yet there are
suggestions of straight lines amid the noise.

Human vision is very sensitive to scale. Subtle features not seen close up
may becoem obvious at a distance. The governing factor is the spatial
frequency of the features in terms of angles of arc as projected from the
eyeball to the object.

To be 'scientific' or 'objective' one can devise spatial filters which will
emphasize linear features amid the visual noise. Such filters exist in
animal retinas. Some image processing programs, such as JASC Paint Shop Pro,
allow the user to construct custom filter matrices -- this requires
considerable know-how. If one studies what kinds of images stimulate
retinas, prepare to be surprised. Frog eyes are very sensitive to dots
moving inward, but not outward, which is good if you dine on flies. There
are some twelve stages of parallel image processing between the human retina
and the visual cortex at the back of the brain.

It is very adventurous to rule out anything when inspecting Mars with the
Rovers. The fact that apparently millions of people are looking at these
images suggests that new questions will arise quickly and stimulate new
missions and new instruments. Personally, I find no reason to reject organic
origin of many of these features. Life exists on Earth in very 'hostile'
environments and at very different metabolic rates.

Regards,
Mike Carrell


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(I have subscribed under a different email address to try to get this 
message through.  Previous attempts have fallen down the vortex drain.)

It's getting pretty difficult to deny, eh?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=505454

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The title should say "Methane".

Terry Blanton wrote:

> (I have subscribed under a different email address to try to get this 
> message through.  Previous attempts have fallen down the vortex drain.)
>
> It's getting pretty difficult to deny, eh?
>
> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=505454 
>
>
>

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Test.

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>

> (I have subscribed under a different email address to try to get this 
> message through.  Previous attempts have fallen down the vortex drain.)
> 
> It's getting pretty difficult to deny, eh?
> 
> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=505454



Worm gas?

I also posted a message yesterday that must have been eaten up by an anonymous spam filter in cyberspace, so this is really just a test to see if I will have to repost the bit of 'hot air' again....

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 09:17:36 2004
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This is a revised posting from a similar one yesterday that didn't get through.

Why penalize good experimental results with a lame theory? The only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions is gamma radiation. Period.

If you have no gammas and want to invoke phonon or lattice coupling, then first set up an experiment where you can show that nuclear lattice coupling is high probability and happens most of the time in similar situations. 

Unfortunately, the relevant and obvious experiment has been performed and it is null. When one loads tritium into a Pd lattice, the decay gammas are still measurable and correlate well with what theory says they should be - how could this be true if Pd somehow promotes nuclear lattice coupling? Conclusion: nuclear lattice coupling is a myth.

Isn't the problem obvious? We know that radioactive hydrogen (tritium) is not lattice-coupled in a Pd matrix and cannot be induced to couple, so how can the thousand-fold higher radiation levels of deuterium fusion be said to ever couple, and especially to couple so well that ZERO  24 MeV gammas can be measured?

Sure, the element helium can conceivably be derived from an extremely unlikely form of fusion, but it is infinitely more likely to be found from a plethora of other innocuous sources. The appearance of helium is ALWAY ambiguous evidence for fusion, no matter how well it correlates to excess energy UNLESS the statistical correlation can be framed to be arguably absolute. In point of fact, the correlation is shaky even in those few excess-heat experiments where helium is found in rough proportion to excess energy, but most damning is that in much, probably most of the highest quality CF work done in the 1990s, the major ash component was tritium, such as found in careful experiments done by Claytor and others with almost no helium except that which decayed from tritium. Tritium, of course, releases gamma radiation.

Helium is ubiquitous- not surprising since it is the second most common element in the universe; it is found everywhere on earth, in air, natural gas, all kinds of radioactive decay and in many manufactured product where natural gas was used in processing, such as stainless steel and the rubber seals of vacuum chambers. Also, in testing there are pitfalls - to detect He in a mass spec is somewhat difficult because of the mass similarity to molecular deuterium. That problem would fall under the category of "measurement error" and is not relevant to broader theoretical implications.

Helium is also the smallest molecule (since the molecule is monatomic) and so mobile and hard to contain or EXCLUDE from any container, in that it can go INTO any vacuum chamber from environmental air over time. This mass transfer process doesn't require a loose seal necessarily, as many metals are porous to helium, especially after mechanical degradation, such as years of flexing every time you start up the turbo pump. 

The air we breathe consists of one part in 200,000 helium, but in trying to "rewrite" mother nature, you will find some researchers who will say that it is less than that, or even "de minimis" - so that its real ubiquity is ignored so as to better fit into an agenda. Sorry, helium is one part in 200,000 in air which means that for every breath you take, you will exhale approximately 500,000,000,000,000,000 helium atoms. If this was found to be in rough correlation to the energy your body was burning during that breath (actually it is not far off) does that then mean that your metabolism was working on D+D fusion? I think not.

Consequently to say that helium was found in rough proportion to excess energy in a ratio of one million helium atoms for every for every 38 ergs of excess energy in a particular experiment, will appear to a skeptic of cold fusion as really meaningless, and therefore the explanation itself may tend to negate the excellent experimental results. In short, the experimenter would be better off to NOT choose that explanation... perhaps, not to even look for helium in the first place.

When one becomes so tied to a particular principle, and so desirous to invoke the "fusion" explanation for findings of excess energy, but can find no high energy photons (which cannot be hidden if they were there) and which are the only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions, then there is a great incentive to grasp at other explanations to cope with this problem. A current favorite rationalization for this is to say that the energy emission is effectively "coupled to the lattice." But is there any evidence for this happening elsewhere in all of physics?

Yes, if you google such phrases as "lattice coupling" you will get several thousand hits ! So, has a proper defense for lack of gammas been magically found? Only if you don't read on to find that almost all of that research involves ELECTRON-LATTICE coupling, not nuclear coupling. Outside of the cold fusion arena, I can find no good references to the existence of high probability nuclear coupling - that is, there exist some kinds of extremely low energy (Mossbauer effect) and/or low probability phenomena are said to be evidence of lattice coupling. That is doubtful in itself, but for the sake of argument, lets say it is evidence of nuclear coupling. In the Mossbauer effect, look carefully at the ratio- one may get one coupling per million atoms depending on how low a temperature you have, and even so - is that process transferable to CF, and wouldn't it still leave lots of detectable 24 MeV gammas from deuterium fusion, not to mention the secondaries. In effect, you would still have the dead graduate assistant unless the coupling cross-section could be pushed extremely high, which will never happen at elevated temperature.

Inside the CF area - if you look at the old Sci.physics.fusion arguments such as those by dyed-in-the-wool skeptic Richard Blue (who I find it a bit detestable to quote, except that in this case he is correct), you will find this following argument. Unfortunately there has been little effective counter-argument to his main contention on the extreme rarity of nuclear lattice-coupling.

"Both Mitchell Swartz and Bob Cormach seem to want to apply a simple null test to this question. For them the lattice-nucleus coupling either exists or it does not exist. Then as their logic would have it, any demonstration of the existence of this coupling in even one case is sufficient to "prove" that cold fusion is really occurring wherever we want it to occur.  No further test of the cold fusion hypothesis is required!"

"The Swartz approach to the lattice-nucleus coupling is not acceptable physics in my book.  I acknowledge that there are many circumstances in which such couplings are clearly demonstrated.  In fact a great deal of nuclear physics and solid state physics investigations have made use of this couplings as probes to investigate some very intricate details of nuclear and/or atomic structures.  As a prime example one need only mention Nuclear Magnetic Resonance - MRI to some of you perhaps.  I also would not leave out Mitchell's favorite, Mossbauer Effect."

"What I would suggest is that we need to move beyond the mere existence of a nuclear-lattice coupling to a discussion of the quantitative aspects of such couplings.  If one assigns an energy scale to the various known couplings there is a pattern that is worth noting.  The energies involved in nuclear-lattice couplings are not very big.  They don't have very large effects on the nuclear states involved.  Now is such experimental data something we can simply ignore?  I claim that all the experimental data that addresses this question has to be considered and given weight appropriately along with the CF calorimetry data.  To my mind it defies logic to assert that this body of experimental data should be ignored in this discussion.  The evidence clearly indicates that nuclear-lattice couplings are, at most, small perturbations on nuclear states.  Is there anyone who would challenge that statement as a good summary for the vast
body of data available?" END of quote

I think anyone can easily see that two points have been made in this and other related posts (and never countered effectively). The points are that outside of cold fusion, that nuclear lattice-coupling is a low energy. low probability phenomenon - far from a "bulk" or common event. For it to be the prime reason that gammas are not found would imply that it happens *most of the time* in CF, but nowhere else in all of physics - as even in the best of circumstances it is a rare event. Moreover, the 24 MeV photon is so incredibly potent and detectable (and deadly) that it would stick out like a sore thumb in situations where many joules of excess heat were released unless the coupling were nearly absolute. 

Bottom line - by invoking lattice coupling, the apologist is piggybacking one even more debilitating controversy on top of another. 

Why penalize your good experimental results with such a lame theory? 

Jones






  


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Terry Blanton wrote:

> It's getting pretty difficult to deny, eh?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=505454

Lots of non-biological (pre-life) possibilities for the Mars methane arise when water
seeps down and reacts with the Acetylides and Methanides (" Reactive/Refractory
Carbides, Nitrides, Cyanides, Star Stuff") buried below the Martian crust.

"The acetylides, most important of which is calcium carbide, form acetylene by
reaction with water or acids. Another group, consisting of aluminum, beryllium, and
manganese carbides, is termed the methanides. These yield methane on reaction with
water or acids."

The refractory Carbides (and Nitrides/Cyanides) are inorganic materials that form
organic compounds such as methane and acetylene; etc.,  that can exothermally form
sugars, and amino acids when they are exposed to water/ammonia-water, the precursors
of the RNA-DNA in life forms.

Regards,

Frederick




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From: "explorecraft" <pariah explorecraft.com>
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Subject: Testing voting machines
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:00:12 +0700
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Testing a new polling format for those interested.

It is being roughly developed at:

http://www.explorecraft.com/poll/Pres_Vote_Log.php

For anyone interested in how this would work,
 I would discuss it off vortex at

http://explorecraft.com/forum :sociophysics.

I intend to map the data as it develops,
 I have recently managed to get a
 Wave Phenomena progaam (CSU) program to function
 on my linux machine.
Mapping 3 dimensional data should be a snap
 with this.


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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Lots of non-biological (pre-life) possibilities for the Mars methane arise when water
>seeps down and reacts with the Acetylides and Methanides (" Reactive/Refractory
>Carbides, Nitrides, Cyanides, Star Stuff") buried below the Martian crust.
>

Yes, but this is not sustainable indefinately. 

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Jones Beene wrote:

> This is a revised posting from a similar one yesterday that didn't get through.
>
> Why penalize good experimental results with a lame theory? The only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions is gamma radiation. Period.

Well Jones, I'm glad you made this very clear.  Nevertheless, certain facts do not go away.  Energy is detected, He is detected, and gamma is not detected.  Therefore, you conclude that the energy and He do not result from fusion. It is pure coincidence that the ratio of energy to  amount of He is close to what would be expected from fusion.  After reading what you say below, you apparently simply reject the helium.  I wonder why you don't also reject the energy as well.

>
>
> If you have no gammas and want to invoke phonon or lattice coupling, then first set up an experiment where you can show that nuclear lattice coupling is high probability and happens most of the time in similar situations.

As far as I know there are no similar situations except perhaps for the Mφssbauer effect.

>
>
> Unfortunately, the relevant and obvious experiment has been performed and it is null. When one loads tritium into a Pd lattice, the decay gammas are still measurable and correlate well with what theory says they should be - how could this be true if Pd somehow promotes nuclear lattice coupling? Conclusion: nuclear lattice coupling is a myth.

I do not know what you mean here.  Tritium has no decay gamma.  It is a pure beta emitter.  If you want some evidence that the decay energy of tritium might be affected by the lattice in which it resides, check out the early work of Reifenschweiler, not the current paper in IE.

>
>
> Isn't the problem obvious? We know that radioactive hydrogen (tritium) is not lattice-coupled in a Pd matrix and cannot be induced to couple, so how can the thousand-fold higher radiation levels of deuterium fusion be said to ever couple, and especially to couple so well that ZERO  24 MeV gammas can be measured?

>
>
> Sure, the element helium can conceivably be derived from an extremely unlikely form of fusion, but it is infinitely more likely to be found from a plethora of other innocuous sources. The appearance of helium is ALWAY ambiguous evidence for fusion, no matter how well it correlates to excess energy UNLESS the statistical correlation can be framed to be arguably absolute. In point of fact, the correlation is shaky even in those few excess-heat experiments where helium is found in rough proportion to excess energy, but most damning is that in much, probably most of the highest quality CF work done in the 1990s, the major ash component was tritium, such as found in careful experiments done by Claytor and others with almost no helium except that which decayed from tritium. Tritium, of course, releases gamma radiation.

Here you reveal a value judgment that I don't share.  I believe that the growing body of He-4 measurements show a consistent relationship to heat production.  The He-3 and tritium measurements show no relationship to measured energy production.

>
>
> Helium is ubiquitous- not surprising since it is the second most common element in the universe; it is found everywhere on earth, in air, natural gas, all kinds of radioactive decay and in many manufactured product where natural gas was used in processing, such as stainless steel and the rubber seals of vacuum chambers. Also, in testing there are pitfalls - to detect He in a mass spec is somewhat difficult because of the mass similarity to molecular deuterium. That problem would fall under the category of "measurement error" and is not relevant to broader theoretical implications.

People who measure helium know all of this.  Nevertheless, the element has been measured with a demonstrated accuracy sufficient to show that anomalous He is being produced.  Of course, if a person does not want to believe He-4 is real, these old canards are always available.

>
>
> Helium is also the smallest molecule (since the molecule is monatomic) and so mobile and hard to contain or EXCLUDE from any container, in that it can go INTO any vacuum chamber from environmental air over time. This mass transfer process doesn't require a loose seal necessarily, as many metals are porous to helium, especially after mechanical degradation, such as years of flexing every time you start up the turbo pump.

This statement is simply not true as anyone who has used a leak detector can testify.  If this were true, finding a leak in a vacuum system using helium would be impossible.  The amount of helium detected as resulting from LENR is far in excess of any detected leak.

>
>
> The air we breathe consists of one part in 200,000 helium, but in trying to "rewrite" mother nature, you will find some researchers who will say that it is less than that, or even "de minimis" - so that its real ubiquity is ignored so as to better fit into an agenda. Sorry, helium is one part in 200,000 in air which means that for every breath you take, you will exhale approximately 500,000,000,000,000,000 helium atoms. If this was found to be in rough correlation to the energy your body was burning during that breath (actually it is not far off) does that then mean that your metabolism was working on D+D fusion? I think not.

People who measure helium also measure it in their laboratory air.  McKubre finds the concentration to be about 5.8 ppm.  The concentration in a gas can be detected at levels below a ppb.  Leaks can be easily detected and sealed to achieve this concentration of helium in any device.  Helium detection is a well developed and well understood method.  It is amazing to me that you make arguments that might have been true 20 years ago, but have no reality now.

>
>
> Consequently to say that helium was found in rough proportion to excess energy in a ratio of one million helium atoms for every for every 38 ergs of excess energy in a particular experiment, will appear to a skeptic of cold fusion as really meaningless, and therefore the explanation itself may tend to negate the excellent experimental results. In short, the experimenter would be better off to NOT choose that explanation... perhaps, not to even look for helium in the first place.
>
> When one becomes so tied to a particular principle, and so desirous to invoke the "fusion" explanation for findings of excess energy, but can find no high energy photons (which cannot be hidden if they were there) and which are the only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions, then there is a great incentive to grasp at other explanations to cope with this problem. A current favorite rationalization for this is to say that the energy emission is effectively "coupled to the lattice." But is there any evidence for this happening elsewhere in all of physics?

The Mφssbauer effect.

>
>
> Yes, if you google such phrases as "lattice coupling" you will get several thousand hits ! So, has a proper defense for lack of gammas been magically found? Only if you don't read on to find that almost all of that research involves ELECTRON-LATTICE coupling, not nuclear coupling. Outside of the cold fusion arena, I can find no good references to the existence of high probability nuclear coupling - that is, there exist some kinds of extremely low energy (Mossbauer effect) and/or low probability phenomena are said to be evidence of lattice coupling. That is doubtful in itself, but for the sake of argument, lets say it is evidence of nuclear coupling. In the Mossbauer effect, look carefully at the ratio- one may get one coupling per million atoms depending on how low a temperature you have, and even so - is that process transferable to CF, and wouldn't it still leave lots of detectable 24 MeV gammas from deuterium fusion, not to mention the secondaries. In effect, you would st!
>  ill have the dead graduate assistant unless the coupling cross-section could be pushed extremely high, which will never happen at elevated temperature.

I grant you that the coupling problem is a difficult one.  A number of people have proposed imaginative solutions.  However, because it is difficult to imagine, does not make it not happen.  Unless you reject the helium measurements, as you try to do, a person who wants to reject coupling has a serious problem.

>
>
> Inside the CF area - if you look at the old Sci.physics.fusion arguments such as those by dyed-in-the-wool skeptic Richard Blue (who I find it a bit detestable to quote, except that in this case he is correct), you will find this following argument. Unfortunately there has been little effective counter-argument to his main contention on the extreme rarity of nuclear lattice-coupling.
>
> "Both Mitchell Swartz and Bob Cormach seem to want to apply a simple null test to this question. For them the lattice-nucleus coupling either exists or it does not exist. Then as their logic would have it, any demonstration of the existence of this coupling in even one case is sufficient to "prove" that cold fusion is really occurring wherever we want it to occur.  No further test of the cold fusion hypothesis is required!"
>
> "The Swartz approach to the lattice-nucleus coupling is not acceptable physics in my book.  I acknowledge that there are many circumstances in which such couplings are clearly demonstrated.  In fact a great deal of nuclear physics and solid state physics investigations have made use of this couplings as probes to investigate some very intricate details of nuclear and/or atomic structures.  As a prime example one need only mention Nuclear Magnetic Resonance - MRI to some of you perhaps.  I also would not leave out Mitchell's favorite, Mossbauer Effect."
>
> "What I would suggest is that we need to move beyond the mere existence of a nuclear-lattice coupling to a discussion of the quantitative aspects of such couplings.  If one assigns an energy scale to the various known couplings there is a pattern that is worth noting.  The energies involved in nuclear-lattice couplings are not very big.  They don't have very large effects on the nuclear states involved.  Now is such experimental data something we can simply ignore?  I claim that all the experimental data that addresses this question has to be considered and given weight appropriately along with the CF calorimetry data.  To my mind it defies logic to assert that this body of experimental data should be ignored in this discussion.  The evidence clearly indicates that nuclear-lattice couplings are, at most, small perturbations on nuclear states.  Is there anyone who would challenge that statement as a good summary for the vast
> body of data available?" END of quote
>
> I think anyone can easily see that two points have been made in this and other related posts (and never countered effectively). The points are that outside of cold fusion, that nuclear lattice-coupling is a low energy. low probability phenomenon - far from a "bulk" or common event. For it to be the prime reason that gammas are not found would imply that it happens *most of the time* in CF, but nowhere else in all of physics - as even in the best of circumstances it is a rare event. Moreover, the 24 MeV photon is so incredibly potent and detectable (and deadly) that it would stick out like a sore thumb in situations where many joules of excess heat were released unless the coupling were nearly absolute.
>
> Bottom line - by invoking lattice coupling, the apologist is piggybacking one even more debilitating controversy on top of another.
>
> Why penalize your good experimental results with such a lame theory?

If you accept that both energy and helium exist and are related, then the released nuclear energy has to get from the place where helium is made and into the general lattice.  Some people propose direct coupling, which you reject.  Other people propose alpha emission from a nuclei created by another process.  The imagination has not yet been exhausted.  The problem you have to deal with is just which part of the experimental claims you want to reject in order to avoid a coupling theory.  The only penalty is rejecting the truth to avoid having to accept the impossible.

Ed

>
>
> Jones
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 11:28:12 2004
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
>> Lots of non-biological (pre-life) possibilities for the Mars methane 
>> arise when water
>> seeps down and reacts with the Acetylides and Methanides (" 
>> Reactive/Refractory
>> Carbides, Nitrides, Cyanides, Star Stuff") buried below the Martian 
>> crust.
>>
>
> Yes, but this is not sustainable indefinately. 


Either way, it explains the UFO that Hamdi spotted -- Swamp Gas!

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: LENT-CANR - too little too late?
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More news on global warming:

<http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?story=505798>

The effects of this CO2 increase are nominal compared to the feedback
effects what will happen if the arctic and the oceans warm up enough for a
significant release (from clatherates) of their methane, which is a vastly
more powerful greenhouse gas.  In fact, a methane release ulitmately
results in CO2 formation, so an unexplained rise in CO2 may be in itself be
an indication of a significant methane release.  Atmospheric methane
monitoring may be even more important than CO2 monitoring.

It is a sad fact that the best available immediate protector of the
environment is OPEC.  A high price for energy is the only thing that can
presently make for the changes in infrastructure that are necessary.  It is
too bad the general public is either ignorant or as stupid and stubborn as
a mule that must get a board across the head to move.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 12:16:42 2004
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Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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At 2:25 PM 3/28/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:
>New pictures are posted showing  microscopic pictures after 3 hours of grinding
>at
>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/spirit_m082.html
>
>Grinding edges appears to expose these layers. Initial guess of ice look
>like be
>correct.

Pretty dramtic photos!

It is ironic, but the stuff in the new photos looks even more like ice in
that it appears to show internal bubbles and crystaline salts formed upon
freezing, yet the changes in focal plane appear to not show that any
features are below the surface.  It is as if there has been a cross-section
taken though the ice which has an opaque surface, which I suppose one would
expect from grinding ice.

The best way to tell if it is ice is to push a heated part up against it
and see what kind of mark that makes, but I suppose that is not likely to
happen.

One thing of interest is that some of the "bubbles" appear to have a cross
sectioned tube in the middle of them.  It is as if a root or twig or worm
or something in hollow tube form were chopped in half.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 4:48 PM 3/28/4, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:07:18 -0900:
>Hi,
>
>>At 7:55 PM 3/22/4, thomas malloy wrote:
>>>How does the angle of incidence affect the amount of energy that the
>>>asteroid would release?
>>
>>
>>This seems like a trick question. 8^)
>>
>>All the caluclations provided earlier assume only the mechanical energy due
>>to momentum gained by a meteor from approaching the earth.  Mechanical
>>energy is conserved, so there would be a fixed amount of energy expended
>>from any impact under that scenario, regardless of the angle of incidence.
>>That assumes actual impact, not a glancing blow of some kind, which would
>>be very unlikely anyway.
>[snip]
>Perhaps Thomas was referring to the angle with relation to the Earth's
>orbit around the Sun? If it approached in the plane of the ecliptic, in a
>retrograde orbit, then you can add the velocity of the Earth (~30 km/sec)
>to that of the meteor, which makes for a much bigger splash.


Thomas would have to answer the question in regard to his intended meaning.
However, the term "angle of incidence" that I used prior to his question I
think clearly meant angle of incidence with respect to the earth's surface,
which is completely independent of the mutual angle of the intersecting
orbits.

Yes, a retrograde orbit would provide somewhat larger maximum possible
energy than a 90 degree mutual angle, but such an event is very unlikely
unless the source of the impacting body is a Nemesis cloud.  Retrograde
orbit objects with orbits in the ecliptic are fairly rare.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: The myth of lattice coupling 
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Hi Ed,

I see that you are still not understanding, or at least resisting, the main point that I have been trying to make. This is probably my fault for not being specific enough. Let me try it again, line-by-line.
 
> Well Jones, I'm glad you made this very clear.  Nevertheless, certain facts do not go away.  Energy is detected, He is detected, and gamma is not detected.  

So far, so good...

ES: "Therefore, you conclude that the energy and He do not result from fusion."

This is not true. I accept that lots of excess energy is detected. But if it comes from fusion, then it clearly it does not come from the kind of fusion that is known and accepted in physics. Therefore, it may be acceptable to the open-minded observer to conclude that the excess energy could be coming from a new (since 1989) and previously unknown type of fusion. But it is not acceptable in either logic, science or anecdote to conclude that "traditional fusion is responsible but that somehow the gammas are hidden by lattice interaction." Nuclear lattice-coupling, at least of the high probability variety, is a myth. It does not exist.

I hope that is crystal clear. Yes, it could be a fusion-like reaction, to the degree that helium is found without outside contamination, but NO it cannot be fusion that is quenched by lattice-coupling. Lattice coupling on a scale that would hide all the 24 MeV gammas is an absolute myth. The logical proof of that statement has been presented. I don't know how to express it more succinctly than that.

ES: "It is pure coincidence that the ratio of energy to  amount of He is close to what would be expected from fusion.  After reading what you say below, you apparently simply reject the helium.  I wonder why you don't also reject the energy as well."

I do not reject the energy. It might be coincidental or not. There is conflicting information on that. Some studies show a good correlation. In others there is excess energy but NO helium except that which decays from tritium. Are you saying Claytor's work is not cold fusion?

> > If you have no gammas and want to invoke phonon or lattice coupling, then first set up an experiment where you can show that nuclear lattice coupling is high probability and happens most of the time in similar situations.
 
> ES: "As far as I know there are no similar situations except perhaps for the Mφssbauer effect."

The Mossbauer effect is absent at the temperatures of cold fusion. Simple as that. Even at cryogenic temperature, it may happen at low probability - approx one in every 10^6 interactions. If a Mossbauer-like effect were going on in cold fusion, it would screen only a few 24 MeV gammas. Most would still be detected!!

> > Unfortunately, the relevant and obvious experiment has been performed and it is null. When one loads tritium into a Pd lattice, the decay gammas are still measurable and correlate well with what theory says they should be - how could this be true if Pd somehow promotes nuclear lattice coupling? Conclusion: nuclear lattice coupling is a myth.
 
> ES: "I do not know what you mean here.  Tritium has no decay gamma.  It is a pure beta emitter.  If you want some evidence that the decay energy of tritium might be affected by the lattice in which it resides, check out the early work of Reifenschweiler, not the current paper in IE."

Ed, you are being difficult. Tritium is a beta emitter, of course, but secondary gammas and Auger cascades are copious and easily detectable. Check Claytor's results in any old Fusion Technology article.  He looks at palladium cathodes and he sees copious emissions from the tritium secondaries. Simple as that. Yes, the gamma emission is secondary and at least a thousand times lower power than D+D but... IF the palladium was able to couple to the hydrogen nucleus in any way, you would see far fewer gammas from the tritium in CF cathodes.

> > Isn't the problem obvious? We know that radioactive hydrogen (tritium) is not lattice-coupled in a Pd matrix and cannot be induced to couple, so how can the thousand-fold higher radiation levels of deuterium fusion be said to ever couple, and especially to couple so well that ZERO 24 MeV gammas can be measured?

I notice you didn't respond to this point. If even a few percent of the 24 MeV gammas were detectable, then the situation would be different.

> > Sure, the element helium can conceivably be derived from an extremely unlikely form of fusion, but it is infinitely more likely to be found from a plethora of other innocuous sources. The appearance of helium is ALWAY ambiguous evidence for fusion, no matter how well it correlates to excess energy UNLESS the statistical correlation can be framed to be arguably absolute. In point of fact, the correlation is shaky even in those few excess-heat experiments where helium is found in rough proportion to excess energy, but most damning is that in much, probably most of the highest quality CF work done in the 1990s, the major ash component was tritium, such as found in careful experiments done by Claytor and others with almost no helium except that which decayed from tritium. Tritium, of course, releases gamma radiation.
 
> ES: "Here you reveal a value judgment that I don't share.  I believe that the growing body of He-4 measurements show a consistent relationship to heat production.  The He-3 and tritium measurements show no relationship to measured energy production."

Ed, I agree that there is some correlation but that is beside the point. Either lattice coupling can shield MOST of the 24 MeV gammas or not. The conclusion of almost everyone in physics including those that accpet CFis that nuclear lattice-coupling a myth, and is a non-starter. Again, why penalize good experimental results with a lame and indefensible theory?

Face the emerging fact, we are back at square one as to the underlying theory - which means that the experimenter may, or may not, be detecting *fusion* - but if you are detecting fusion, it is a previously unknown type of fusion that is different from any fusion reaction that was known before 1989. But it is not acceptable in either logic, science or anecdote to conclude that "traditional fusion is responsible but that somehow the gammas are hidden by lattice interaction." 

> "People who measure helium also measure it in their laboratory air.  McKubre finds the concentration to be about 5.8 ppm." 

> > That is way lower than the generally accepted figure but even so, you will exhale approximately 20,000,000,000,000,000 helium atoms with every breath instead of the earlier figure... and if this was found to be in any small correlation to the energy your body was burning during that breath, does that then mean that your metabolism was utilizing D+D fusion? I think not.

Again, it all gets back to the initial query: why would you penalize good experimental results with this ridiculous lattice-coupling theory?

Regards,

Jones

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Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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At 6:51 PM 3/27/4, SnowDog wrote:
>> In effect the bright spots could be reflections, but not like from a
>single
>> mirrored surface, but more like from bright blue snow.  It appears the
>> stuff is blue. Coincidentally glacial ice is also often blue, but ice on
>> Mars, if any of the immediate subsurface stuff is ice, must have a lot of
>> dissolved salts in it that may color it.
>
>How can you tell if something is blue?


It appears the stuff is blue.  It looks blue.  Its hue is blue.  It could
be a variant of blue, like blue-grey, or further down the spectrum, like
indigo, or violet, but it certainly is not red or orange.  It shows up as
very black through most of the filters except the blue end, where it is
bright.  There is no subtlety involved here that requires calibration data
as far as I can see, at least in regard to its appearance.  It looks
reasonably certain if you were standing there it would have a bluish hue.
It would not have a warm colored hue.  A blue sky can turn a white object
blue, but it can't turn a red object blue.  The stuff looks to me like its
coloration could be that of glacial ice, especially glacial ice with a
touch of copper sulfate, possibly greyed-out by crystalized sulfate
particles.


>Without access to the calibration
>data, the only way to determine if something is blue is to calibrate the sky
>against the mirrors on the color wheel, for that day, or to try to calibrate
>a spot in the soil against the spectra analysis made by JPL on Day 3. Each
>filtered image has its maximum and minimum values adjusted to the highest
>and lowest values possible, to improve the compression performance before
>transmission. Because the blue filtered image is the darkest, it's value is
>exagerated the most in the filtered image. We need calibration data, which
>we don't have, to bring the color back to the correct value.


Well, yes, you need calibration data to determine the true color or true
spectrum of an object.  However, I am just talking appearance, what the
camera sees under the current lighting conditions.  The appearance
certainly has a strong blue hue, and no redish hue.  No reasonable amount
of lighting condition change can make a thin atmosphere turn a red color
blue.  The stuff must have a fairly strong blue hue, or else it is white
and the sky is very very blue, which seems unlikely.

It is hindsight, but a small flash attachment would not have required much
weight and could have done wonders for determination of true colors.  It
would also have facilitated night operations, but that will only be really
important to future better powered robots.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:09:56 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:34:56 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>Thomas would have to answer the question in regard to his intended meaning.
>However, the term "angle of incidence" that I used prior to his question I
>think clearly meant angle of incidence with respect to the earth's surface,
>which is completely independent of the mutual angle of the intersecting
>orbits.
>
>Yes, a retrograde orbit would provide somewhat larger maximum possible
>energy than a 90 degree mutual angle, but such an event is very unlikely
>unless the source of the impacting body is a Nemesis cloud.  Retrograde
>orbit objects with orbits in the ecliptic are fairly rare.
[snip]
BTW there is an animation of the orbit of the latest to pass our way (since the one mentioned above, and even closer) at http://www.hohmanntransfer.com/mn/0403/26.htm#bits2


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 29 March 2004 00:02
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces



> >How can you tell if something is blue?
>
>
> It appears the stuff is blue.  It looks blue.  Its hue is blue.  It could
> be a variant of blue, like blue-grey, or further down the spectrum, like
> indigo, or violet, but it certainly is not red or orange.  It shows up as
> very black through most of the filters except the blue end, where it is
> bright.

It appear lighter in 535nm filter in green section of the spectrum, therefore
it could be also turquoise.

> The stuff looks to me like its
> coloration could be that of glacial ice, especially glacial ice with a
> touch of copper sulfate, possibly greyed-out by crystalized sulfate
> particles.

Spread dust around by RAT suggest the material is highly opaque, therefore
a chemical composition rather than colored ice. If you recall my previous
analysis
a concluded there was multiple layers, and the top layer is transparent, second
layer is
opaque, which is clearly seen in these photos, and the blue dust should be
belong
to this layer.

[snip]

> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 13:25:26 2004
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Subject: Re: Mars Methand (3rd try)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:24:55 -0600
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Terry wrote:
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Lots of non-biological (pre-life) possibilities for the Mars methane arise when
water
> >seeps down and reacts with the Acetylides and Methanides (" Reactive/Refractory
> >Carbides, Nitrides, Cyanides, Star Stuff") buried below the Martian crust.
> >
>
> Yes, but this is not sustainable indefinitely.
>
It could last out the 4.5 billion year age of Mars, just like "Old Faithful".

With the molten iron core half the size of it lots of possibilities for volcanic pipes
to contend with.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2003/32.cfm

"In addition to detection of a liquid core for Mars, the results indicate the size of
the core is about one-half the size of the planet, as is the case for Earth and Venus,
and that the core has a significant fraction of a lighter element such as sulfur."

Also a possibility of Water-Carbon Dioxide reactions with molten sulfur that can
release hydrogen  that can react with the carbonyl sulfide (COS) to produce methane.

Time will tell.  :-)

Regards,

Frederick


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: 28 March 2004 18:21
Subject: Re: Puzzled


> Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>
> > I am puzzled by these dark colored knotted or twisted string looking
features
> > appearing in many soil microscopic pictures but marginally visible. I am
puzzled
> > because they can be easily mixed by shadows and they appear always in
crests,
> > not crossing over things. So it is difficult to find solid evidence they are
> > indeed some objects. There are also a similar things, black mesh like
patches
> > take place also in crusts and having string like character.

[snip]

> It is very adventurous to rule out anything when inspecting Mars with the
> Rovers. The fact that apparently millions of people are looking at these
> images suggests that new questions will arise quickly and stimulate new
> missions and new instruments. Personally, I find no reason to reject organic
> origin of many of these features. Life exists on Earth in very 'hostile'
> environments and at very different metabolic rates.
>
> Regards,
> Mike Carrell
>
>

Answer IS "Black Forest - Brian's Choice", which took in place of the soil
pictures
chosen by NASA, found on Mars rovers front page!

On the medium or the large version of this image, it can seen varieties of
things
including these earth worm features at the lower right. These are not simply
cracks
in sand or illusions, the look like but better to something alive, able to
advance on and under
the soil, pushing it, like worm or plant root. The unique perspective of this
shot give
 very good sight.

I guess the "Brian's Choice" is indeed a very good choice. :)

I also noticed the large picture of these shots have better resolution than raw
images. ???

Regards, hamdi ucar

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Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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> > It appears the stuff is blue.  It looks blue.  Its hue is blue.  It
could
> > be a variant of blue, like blue-grey, or further down the spectrum, like
> > indigo, or violet, but it certainly is not red or orange.  It shows up
as
> > very black through most of the filters except the blue end, where it is
> > bright.
>
> It appear lighter in 535nm filter in green section of the spectrum,
therefore
> it could be also turquoise.

But this is my point. The images taken through the shorter wavelength
filters, are generally made much brighter than the images taken through the
longer wavelength filters. The apparent blue colors are completely and
totally artificial in most cases. Though the image in the blue filter is
brighter, it is much darker in actuality because the blue image is
brightened so much more.

I made two colored images of the spot. The first is how it would appear with
no adjustment of the blue and green filtered images. The second is adjusted
as most images of the soil are required to be adjusted.

http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars9.htm

I think the spot is probably black.

Craig

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March 29, 2004

Vortex,

Drudge Report has posted a New Orleans- based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals (federal) decision.  Immediately, police officers in Louisiana no longer need a search or arrest warrant to conduct a brief searech of your home or business. 
Sign of the times for the rest of the country and citizenry?

-ak- 
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<BODY>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2>March 29, 2004</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Vortex,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Drudge Report has posted a New Orleans- based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals (federal) decision. &nbsp;Immediately, police officers in Louisiana no longer need a search&nbsp;or arrest&nbsp;warrant to conduct a brief searech of your&nbsp;home or business. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Sign of the times for the rest of the country and citizenry?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-ak-&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 15:18:11 2004
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Fw: The myth of lattice coupling and He ratios
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:18:00 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:16:03 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:16:03 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>Why penalize good experimental results with a lame theory? The only unambiguous characteristic of fusion reactions is gamma radiation. Period.

Yesterday I posted a theoretical mechanism[1] which would result in energetic alphas (and perhaps energetic electrons) rather than gamma rays. 
1. See thread "Another possible helium producing mechanism"]

>
>If you have no gammas and want to invoke phonon or lattice coupling, then first set up an experiment where you can show that nuclear lattice coupling is high probability and happens most of the time in similar situations.
>
>Unfortunately, the relevant and obvious experiment has been performed and it is null. When one loads tritium into a Pd lattice, the decay gammas are still measurable and correlate well with what theory says they should be - how could this be true if Pd somehow promotes nuclear lattice coupling? Conclusion: nuclear lattice coupling is a myth.

It could easily happen, if only a small percentage of the decays couple to the lattice, while the rest are normal, in which case, one would be measuring the normal component.
Furthermore, the question needs to be asked, whether or not the "CF effect" occurred at all in the above experiment? If not, then it is just one of the many null experiments, and hence contributes nothing to our overall knowledge. 
In order for a change in T decay to be useful, one would need to determine whether or not there was a decrease in gammas from T decay while excess heat production / transmutation was in progress.
Even this may not be measurable, since likely only a very small percentage of the T would be reacting at any one time, and consequently the change in decay rate would be barely perceptible. Furthermore, you appear to make the assumption that a tight coupling would eliminate the gammas. This is not the case, see the Mφssbauer effect, in which they are not eliminated, but rather the energy spectrum shifts. 
(BTW if T is used instead of D then there should be spare neutrons floating around from the reaction T + T -> He4 + 2n. Absorption of these neutrons by Pd nuclei should result in gammas with a measurably different energy. This in itself would be a sensitive test to the presence of a CF reaction, not to mention that the neutrons themselves should be easily detectable - and dangerous).

[snip]
Blue:
>"What I would suggest is that we need to move beyond the mere existence of a nuclear-lattice coupling to a discussion of the quantitative aspects of such couplings.  If one assigns an energy scale to the various known couplings there is a pattern that is worth noting.  The energies involved in nuclear-lattice couplings are not very big.  They don't have very large effects on the nuclear states involved.  Now is such experimental data something we can simply ignore?  I claim that all the experimental data that addresses this question has to be considered and given weight appropriately along with the CF calorimetry data.  To my mind it defies logic to assert that this body of experimental data should be ignored in this discussion.  The evidence clearly indicates that nuclear-lattice couplings are, at most, small perturbations on nuclear states.  Is there anyone who would challenge that statement as a good summary for the vast
>body of data available?" END of quote

Just because no one previously noticed high energy examples, doesn't necessarily mean that they are not possible. Furthermore, once the low energy phenomenon has been recognised, many people tend to explore it, resulting in a "vast body of data". CF may just be an example of high energy coupling.

>
>I think anyone can easily see that two points have been made in this and other related posts (and never countered effectively). The points are that outside of cold fusion, that nuclear lattice-coupling is a low energy. low probability phenomenon - far from a "bulk" or common event. For it to be the prime reason that gammas are not found would imply that it happens *most of the time* in CF, but nowhere else in all of physics - as even in the best of circumstances it is a rare event. Moreover, the 24 MeV photon is so incredibly potent and detectable (and deadly) that it would stick out like a sore thumb in situations where many joules of excess heat were released unless the coupling were nearly absolute. 
>
>Bottom line - by invoking lattice coupling, the apologist is piggybacking one even more debilitating controversy on top of another. 
>
>Why penalize your good experimental results with such a lame theory? 
>
>Jones
The gist of your argument appears to be that even if such coupling were possible, then there should still be some reactions producing detectable gamma rays (correct me if this is not what you were trying to say).
However this argument assumes that the fusion reactions can occur without the lattice coupling. That may not be the case. IOW no coupling -> no reaction, and hence no gamma rays.
The coupling itself may be the very agent of the reaction (as well as the energy removal mechanism).
You can see this as follows. When a tight couple with the lattice is established, it very favourably alters the chances of a reaction taking place. IMO this is most likely because a tight lattice coupling results in zero or very low *relative* velocity between the deuterium nuclei, which in turn vastly increases their relative De Broglie wavelengths, such that these overlap, making tunnelling possible. Then the same tight couple which brought about the reaction also distributes the energy of the reaction to the lattice, in the form of a slight shift in the relative positions of many (millions?) of lattice atoms. This shift is like stressing a spring, which upon its release redistributes its stress energy in the form of heat in the lattice. This may appear self serving, however it seems to me that it is the very overlap of the De broglie waves which is the essence of the tight coupling in the first place. It is the "matter waves" which provide the link between the atoms, hence the mechanism which makes the fusion reaction possible is precisely the same mechanism which is responsible for distributing  the energy. It is not really two separate processes, but all part of a single process.

Note that we are talking about a hydrogen (isotope) lattice here, which explains why high loading is necessary. I.e. at low loading, there are two many discontinuities in the lattice to provide the necessary long chains required for a tight coupling (which I envisage to take place in single rows of atoms).

If this scenario is correct, then high amplitude monotonic sound waves in the lattice should facilitate CF, due to forced resonance. Particularly when long wave sound (i.e. low frequency) is used.
There is some evidence for this from the Italian nickel-hydrogen experiments where they stated that a "sharp blow" was required or helped, as well perhaps from Russ George's ultrasound results.
Given that loading is greater near the surface, it would seem prudent to introduce these waves parallel to the surface, thus increasing the length of chains available.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

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Subject: Re: Fw: The myth of lattice coupling and He ratios
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:20:50 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:11:48 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>I do not know what you mean here.  Tritium has no decay gamma.  It is a pure beta emitter.

Oops, I missed that one! :) (re. my other post).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

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Subject: Re: LENT-CANR - too little too late?
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:30:48 +1000
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:46:35 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>More news on global warming:
>
><http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?story=505798>
>
>The effects of this CO2 increase are nominal compared to the feedback
>effects what will happen if the arctic and the oceans warm up enough for a
>significant release (from clatherates) of their methane, which is a vastly
>more powerful greenhouse gas.  In fact, a methane release ulitmately
>results in CO2 formation, so an unexplained rise in CO2 may be in itself be
>an indication of a significant methane release.  Atmospheric methane
>monitoring may be even more important than CO2 monitoring.
>
>It is a sad fact that the best available immediate protector of the
>environment is OPEC.  A high price for energy is the only thing that can
>presently make for the changes in infrastructure that are necessary.  It is
>too bad the general public is either ignorant or as stupid and stubborn as
>a mule that must get a board across the head to move.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
While I agree with all of this, I would also point out that warmer sea water will dissolve less CO2, ensuring that what we produce stays in the atmosphere. (If memory serves correctly).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Also a possibility of Water-Carbon Dioxide reactions with molten sulfur that can
>release hydrogen  that can react with the carbonyl sulfide (COS) to produce methane.
>

You goin' MIB on us, Sparber?

Ackshully, there is evidence of outgassing in the Mars Express photos.

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Puzzled
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At 12:49 AM 3/29/4, <hamdix iris.com.tr> wrote:

>Answer IS "Black Forest - Brian's Choice", which took in place of the soil
>pictures
>chosen by NASA, found on Mars rovers front page!
>
>On the medium or the large version of this image, it can seen varieties of
>things
>including these earth worm features at the lower right. These are not simply
>cracks
>in sand or illusions, the look like but better to something alive, able to
>advance on and under
>the soil, pushing it, like worm or plant root. The unique perspective of this
>shot give
> very good sight.
>
>I guess the "Brian's Choice" is indeed a very good choice. :)
>
>I also noticed the large picture of these shots have better resolution than raw
>images. ???


I assume you are talking about the big group of 6 soil types photo in the
press release section for Spirit.  Yes, the photos seem to be enhanced
quite a bit.  Also, they represent a smaller area than the usual
microscopic images.  They are blow-ups.

Maybe I have limited vision in this case.  Vision limited by my bias to see
the stuff as lichen.  However, I just see the stuff in that "Brian's
Choice" photo as similar to the stuff covering the ice field outside Eagle
crater, and visible in most soil photos.  I think it is just lichen.  You
can see the stalks and in some cases the heads.  This is the stuff I have
called matchstick lichen.  It grows thick, like a very thick shag rug.  The
close proximity of the strands traps water vapor escaping from the frozen
soil below.  It is the crustal lichen that forms the crust that preserves
the ice below from sublimation.  You'll notice that the soil is higly
disrupted in "Brian's Choice" from the pressure of a spectrometer.  I think
that is why in some cases the individual strands of lichen are so visible.
If you keep in mind that they are typically frozen, then it becoms clear
that when disrupted they can fracture and look like worms when strewn
about.

There seem to be various forms of lichen.  Some are the crustal form that
produce irregular shaped apothecia (fruiting bodies) produced below the
surface, and some produce the "berry on a stalk" perithecia (fruiting
bodies.)  The fruiting bodies appear to be in various stages of growth and
decay in the various photos, depending on location.  It wouldn't suprise me
to find out that many of them blew into the crater from long distances
away.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Jones Beene wrote:

> Hi Ed,
>
> I see that you are still not understanding, or at least resisting, the main point that I have been trying to make. This is probably my fault for not being specific enough. Let me try it again, line-by-line.
>
> > Well Jones, I'm glad you made this very clear.  Nevertheless, certain facts do not go away.  Energy is detected, He is detected, and gamma is not detected.
>
> So far, so good...
>
> ES: "Therefore, you conclude that the energy and He do not result from fusion."
>
> This is not true. I accept that lots of excess energy is detected. But if it comes from fusion, then it clearly it does not come from the kind of fusion that is known and accepted in physics. Therefore, it may be acceptable to the open-minded observer to conclude that the excess energy could be coming from a new (since 1989) and previously unknown type of fusion. But it is not acceptable in either logic, science or anecdote to conclude that "traditional fusion is responsible but that somehow the gammas are hidden by lattice interaction." Nuclear lattice-coupling, at least of the high probability variety, is a myth. It does not exist.

OK Jones, if we agree that the energy and helium are real, I have no problem with your rejection of the idea that a fusion reaction is unable to couple its large energy release to the lattice.  Many people have had a hard time with this process and, as a result, have suggested other mechanisms.  Yours is just one more that can be added to the list.  At this point, I take no stand as to which one is correct.  All I know for sure is that energy results from helium production and this energy is observed mainly as heat and not as high energy radiation.

>
>
> I hope that is crystal clear. Yes, it could be a fusion-like reaction, to the degree that helium is found without outside contamination, but NO it cannot be fusion that is quenched by lattice-coupling. Lattice coupling on a scale that would hide all the 24 MeV gammas is an absolute myth. The logical proof of that statement has been presented. I don't know how to express it more succinctly than that.

I have no problem with this statement.  However, the question is still open in many people's minds as to whether a process that looks like coupling might be discovered.

>
>
> ES: "It is pure coincidence that the ratio of energy to  amount of He is close to what would be expected from fusion.  After reading what you say below, you apparently simply reject the helium.  I wonder why you don't also reject the energy as well."
>
> I do not reject the energy. It might be coincidental or not. There is conflicting information on that. Some studies show a good correlation. In others there is excess energy but NO helium except that which decays from tritium. Are you saying Claytor's work is not cold fusion?

Claytor is not measuring energy and sees so little tritium that energy measurement would be impossible.  He and other people (including myself) have made tritium under conditions that would not be expected to produce tritium if "normal" fusion were operating.  Therefore, the results fall under the banner of CF.

>
>
> > > If you have no gammas and want to invoke phonon or lattice coupling, then first set up an experiment where you can show that nuclear lattice coupling is high probability and happens most of the time in similar situations.
>
> > ES: "As far as I know there are no similar situations except perhaps for the Mφssbauer effect."
>
> The Mossbauer effect is absent at the temperatures of cold fusion. Simple as that. Even at cryogenic temperature, it may happen at low probability - approx one in every 10^6 interactions. If a Mossbauer-like effect were going on in cold fusion, it would screen only a few 24 MeV gammas. Most would still be detected!!

Point taken.  I agree, 24 MeV is a lot of energy to couple to a lattice.

>
>
> > > Unfortunately, the relevant and obvious experiment has been performed and it is null. When one loads tritium into a Pd lattice, the decay gammas are still measurable and correlate well with what theory says they should be - how could this be true if Pd somehow promotes nuclear lattice coupling? Conclusion: nuclear lattice coupling is a myth.
>
> > ES: "I do not know what you mean here.  Tritium has no decay gamma.  It is a pure beta emitter.  If you want some evidence that the decay energy of tritium might be affected by the lattice in which it resides, check out the early work of Reifenschweiler, not the current paper in IE."
>
> Ed, you are being difficult. Tritium is a beta emitter, of course, but secondary gammas and Auger cascades are copious and easily detectable. Check Claytor's results in any old Fusion Technology article.  He looks at palladium cathodes and he sees copious emissions from the tritium secondaries. Simple as that. Yes, the gamma emission is secondary and at least a thousand times lower power than D+D but... IF the palladium was able to couple to the hydrogen nucleus in any way, you would see far fewer gammas from the tritium in CF cathodes.

Here we need to define our terms.  A gamma ray only comes from the nucleus. Tritium does not produce a gamma and it does not cause surrounding nuclei to emit a gamma.  However, Auger cascades result in X-rays which are detected.  However, these energies are very weak.  Claytor detects the beta emission as an ion current.  In the past he detected neutrons along with the tritium.  I know of no time he detected gamma emission.  Occasionally people (Wolf)  have created radioactive elements that are radioactive and decay by gamma emitters, but this is very rare.

>
>
> > > Isn't the problem obvious? We know that radioactive hydrogen (tritium) is not lattice-coupled in a Pd matrix and cannot be induced to couple, so how can the thousand-fold higher radiation levels of deuterium fusion be said to ever couple, and especially to couple so well that ZERO 24 MeV gammas can be measured?
>
> I notice you didn't respond to this point. If even a few percent of the 24 MeV gammas were detectable, then the situation would be different.

I didn't respond because I don't know what you are talking about, as I explained above.  Even when tritium is made by normal fusion, a gamma ray is not emitted.  The resulting energy is carried by the tritium and a proton.  Even when X-rays are only emitted they occur only when these energetic ions contact matter.

> > > Sure, the element helium can conceivably be derived from an extremely unlikely form of fusion, but it is infinitely more likely to be found from a plethora of other innocuous sources. The appearance of helium is ALWAY ambiguous evidence for fusion, no matter how well it correlates to excess energy UNLESS the statistical correlation can be framed to be arguably absolute. In point of fact, the correlation is shaky even in those few excess-heat experiments where helium is found in rough proportion to excess energy, but most damning is that in much, probably most of the highest quality CF work done in the 1990s, the major ash component was tritium, such as found in careful experiments done by Claytor and others with almost no helium except that which decayed from tritium. Tritium, of course, releases gamma radiation.
>
> > ES: "Here you reveal a value judgment that I don't share.  I believe that the growing body of He-4 measurements show a consistent relationship to heat production.  The He-3 and tritium measurements show no relationship to measured energy production."
>
> Ed, I agree that there is some correlation but that is beside the point. Either lattice coupling can shield MOST of the 24 MeV gammas or not. The conclusion of almost everyone in physics including those that accpet CFis that nuclear lattice-coupling a myth, and is a non-starter. Again, why penalize good experimental results with a lame and indefensible theory?

Well Jones, in many people's minds, the experimental results have been penalized by many indefensible theories, not just this one.  If you want to fight the theory wars, you can find many people who will shoot down any idea you propose. That is why I avoid theory debates and stick to the observed facts.

>
>
> Face the emerging fact, we are back at square one as to the underlying theory - which means that the experimenter may, or may not, be detecting *fusion* - but if you are detecting fusion, it is a previously unknown type of fusion that is different from any fusion reaction that was known before 1989. But it is not acceptable in either logic, science or anecdote to conclude that "traditional fusion is responsible but that somehow the gammas are hidden by lattice interaction."

You summarized very well the reasons why people have a hard time believing the observations.

>
>
> > "People who measure helium also measure it in their laboratory air.  McKubre finds the concentration to be about 5.8 ppm."
>
> > > That is way lower than the generally accepted figure but even so, you will exhale approximately 20,000,000,000,000,000 helium atoms with every breath instead of the earlier figure...

I don't know where you get your numbers, but 6 ppm is the accepted figure I have seen.

> and if this was found to be in any small correlation to the energy your body was burning during that breath, does that then mean that your metabolism was utilizing D+D fusion? I think not.
>
> Again, it all gets back to the initial query: why would you penalize good experimental results with this ridiculous lattice-coupling theory?

Because not everyone thinks it is as ridiculous as you do.  In addition, this is the simplest way to describe the end result without having to explain the process.  It rather like saying that a burning match makes light and heat without having to explain the chemistry.  You are saying that the match can not make light and heat unless I can explain exactly how the process works.  If I propose that the light and heat is caused by God's anger, you would tell me therefore the light and heat can not possibly be real, and I should avoid such an explanation if I want anyone to believe the heat and light are real.  The fact that I can burn myself is not the issue.  This may be too simple, but you get the point.

Ed

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 17:07:09 2004
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Hi Robin,

First let me thank Ed for his many insightful comments and willingness to keep an open mind. I think we have nearly beat this one to death.
 
> RvS: Yesterday I posted a theoretical mechanism which would result in energetic alphas (and perhaps energetic electrons) rather than gamma rays. 

Energetic alphas will always produce some energetic gammas as secondaries that should be not only be easily measured, but identified through spectroscopy. If you disagree, can you cite any evidence where this is not the case.

> Just because no one previously noticed high energy examples [of lattice-coupling], doesn't necessarily mean that they are not possible. 

They may be possible ! That is really beside the point. The point is that high probability nuclear-lattice coupling has no actual model in all of physics now, and presently no actual evidence for it (note I said "high probability"). It is not just unproven, but hypothetical - and one should probably not employ a hypothetical explanation to justify a controversial phenomenon... at least if widespread acceptance of your work is important to you. 

If experimental reproducibility of  the controversial phenomenon is adequate, leave it at that. Or.... Prove the hypothetical methodology first, and then use that to help to improve on your experimentary evidence for the controversial phenomenon. 

It really gets down to "layering" of probability. The skeptic or unconvinced observer of CF might not balk at what he considers to be the probability of the experimenter not making measurement error, so long as the experimenter doesn't layer that on top of that an explanation that is even more improbable... 

BTW, one objection to my previous post that you might have raised is the suggestion that instead of accepting a fictional coupling mechanism, isn't the suggestion for a new type of nuclear reaction? Well, in point of fact, new types of nuclear reactions are discovered or proposed all the time. Since P&F you can probably find dozens of papers on new and weird double and triple beta decays, etc. Of course, your suggestion below takes a back-door run at that  <G>

And once again, the problem with the Mossbauer analogy is not just that it is low energy, but that it is also low probability at low energy and at low temperature. Three strikes and your out... as far as being able to hide that 24 MeV gamma.

> The gist of your argument appears to be that even if such coupling were possible, then there should still be some reactions producing detectable gamma rays (correct me if this is not what you were trying to say).

BINGO... I think you've got it...

> However this argument assumes that the fusion reactions can occur without the lattice coupling. 

Happens all the time...

> That may not be the case. IOW no coupling -> no reaction, and hence no gamma rays.

But D+D fusion reactions ONLY happen without coupling in reality, and have never been shown to happen with coupling. You're trying to use two negative hypotheticals to prove one positive reality...

> The coupling itself may be the very agent of the reaction (as well as the energy removal mechanism).

Then show that coupling can even happen at all, even at low probability in another experiment. For instance, alloy a gamma emitter into a Pd lattice and show that its emissions are coupled rather than scattered. From there on, it is far easier to proceed to the possibility that this could be the sine qua non of both the reaction and the conversion mechanism.

>  the mechanism which makes the fusion reaction possible is precisely the same mechanism which is responsible for distributing  the energy. It is not really two separate processes, but all part of a single process.

Hey, I'd like to believe it. But there are so many simpler hypothetical possibilities, far more likely, to explain helium and these are explanations that don't involve the extraordinarily low probability of D+D> He, which is rare even in the core of the sun. 

It just hardly ever happens anywhere so why would it happen here if there are simpler ways? Far more probable, for instance, is that helium results sequentially from a neutron being stripped off a deuterium in the lattice, which neutron is absorbed in the matrix and following that, the helium that is being measured against the excess energy comes from the decay of the Pd atom that absorbed the neutron. This methodology seems to fail from Ed's ratio by a multiple of about a factor of 24, since these types of decays are usually about 1 MeV, but there are a number of ways that this method could involve concurrent effects that brought the ratio more inline with the energy seen.

No it couldn't be called cold 'fusion' but I don't think anyone on this forum would balk at the more generic LENR moniker.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 17:14:41 2004
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At 4:10 PM 3/28/4, SnowDog wrote:

>http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars9.htm

Nice job.


>
>I think the spot is probably black.


It can't be black.  It is white in 2 out of 6 filters.  It sure looks blue
to me, some parts more blue than others.  The blue coming from copper
sulfate still makes sense to me.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 17:14:39 2004
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Subject: Re: Land of the brave and free??!!
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At 2:47 PM 3/28/4, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
>March 29, 2004
>
>Vortex,
>
>Drudge Report has posted a New Orleans- based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals
>(federal) decision.  Immediately, police officers in Louisiana no longer
>need a search or arrest warrant to conduct a brief searech of your home or
>business.
>Sign of the times for the rest of the country and citizenry?
>
>-ak-

Isn't Louisiana the place that made news in the last few years for busting
tourists passing through in (rental) cars or having out of state licenses
so they could make money on the legal proceedings or bail?   I seem to
remember some kind of drug planting being in the report also.  Kind of like
the speed traps that plagued the south in small towns back in the 50's,
only for much bigger bucks.  The only way many small towns could get enough
revenue back in the 50's was through speed traps.  They would have a stooge
car pass tourists right at the radar trap, so as to jack the speed radar
indicator way up.  They were always hunting tourists on their way to
Florida, because they had some money to spare, as opposed to those coming
back who were usually broke.  You could either pay a huge fine and go free
or lose your vacation waiting for a court date in jail.  The super highways
put an end to a lot of that.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 9:30 AM 3/29/4, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>While I agree with all of this, I would also point out that warmer sea
>water will dissolve less CO2, ensuring that what we produce stays in the
>atmosphere. (If memory serves correctly).


That sure sounds right, both for dissolved gas and for carbonates.  AFAIK,
carbonates precipitate out of the water and gasesous CO2 bubbles out as the
water warms.

BTW, sorry for typing "LENT" in stead of "LENR" in the title.  You'd think
after so many years of posting I'd get a spell checker.  8^(

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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> >I think the spot is probably black.
>
>
> It can't be black.  It is white in 2 out of 6 filters.  It sure looks blue
> to me, some parts more blue than others.  The blue coming from copper
> sulfate still makes sense to me.

If there is no blue at all in an image, the blue filtered images would still
be adjusted so that there is at least one spot with maximum brightness. Each
filtered image is adjusted accordingly.

Craig

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>BTW, sorry for typing "LENT" in stead of "LENR" in the title.  You'd think
>after so many years of posting I'd get a spell checker.  8^(
>

Unfortunately, 'Lent' will be in the dictionary and 'LENR' will not . . 
. yet.  :-)

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
> Sent: Monday, 2004 March 29 03:35
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
>
>
> At 4:48 PM 3/28/4, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> >In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:07:18 -0900:
> >Hi,
> >
> >>At 7:55 PM 3/22/4, thomas malloy wrote:
> >>>How does the angle of incidence affect the amount of energy that the
> >>>asteroid would release?
> >>
> >>

>...X...<

> >[snip]
> >Perhaps Thomas was referring to the angle with relation to the Earth's
> >orbit around the Sun? If it approached in the plane of the ecliptic, in a
> >retrograde orbit, then you can add the velocity of the Earth (~30 km/sec)
> >to that of the meteor, which makes for a much bigger splash.
>
>
> Thomas would have to answer the question in regard to his
> intended meaning.
> However, the term "angle of incidence" that I used prior to his question I
> think clearly meant angle of incidence with respect to the
> earth's surface,
> which is completely independent of the mutual angle of the intersecting
> orbits.
>
> Yes, a retrograde orbit would provide somewhat larger maximum possible
> energy than a 90 degree mutual angle, but such an event is very unlikely
> unless the source of the impacting body is a Nemesis cloud.  Retrograde
> orbit objects with orbits in the ecliptic are fairly rare.

All that said, (Noting 2004 FY 15 hurtling past as we type)
 the number we know about is not yet enough to give a good accounting.

The statistics at: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/stats/
 indicate we have only just begun the learning curve.
 Reconciling the number there with theory as proposed
 by Theodore Modis in Predictions (1992, sequel in 2002),
  we don't even have a clue yet.

Cheers.
http://www.explorecraft.com/forum



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>Thomas Malloy wrote:
><snip>

and Frank Carrell replied

>  >
>>  IMHO, if someone had succeeded in producing an engine which produced
>>  usable power, this matter would have been settled. OTHO, radio
>>  nuclides have been remediated, and DOE has ignored it.
>
>How do you mean 'ignored'? The process that I know of falls within the
>window of conventional physics, so nothing to get excited about, but also
>involves high cost, high energy equipment so that while remediation can be

Are you referring to the Nucsol technology? The remediation 
technologies that are posted on the LENR-CANR website don't look 
particularly high tech or expensive.

>There is no
>>  question that the anomalous isotopic ratios are artifactual,
>>  indicating either separation or transmutation. What was it that
>>  Parksie said, "I don't care about your isotopic ratios"?
>
>Yes, they are artifactual, but like other hints will not be taken seriously
>until the whole issue of an existence proof is accepted.

Which is pretty difficult when you have a group of academics like 
Parksie who refuse to even look at the research papers.

>  My understanding of
>the approach taken by those presenting to the new panel will be the minimal
>one of getting an official endorsement that the world of LENR constitutes
>"science" and thereby merits routine consideration instead of routine
>rejection.

Well we can't have that

>Thereafter "scientists" can apply for grants, get papers accepted
>by mainline journals, etc. without threatening their careers. Young
>scientists could then afford to study the field without wrecking their
>careers. The Patent Office might even stop automatically rejecting CF patent
>applications. If that happens, then we might see CF engines emerge from the
>shadows.

It would seem to me that if a significant amount of energy could be 
liberated there would be research papers talking about it.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:05:45 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>> RvS: Yesterday I posted a theoretical mechanism which would result in energetic alphas (and perhaps energetic electrons) rather than gamma rays. 
>
>Energetic alphas will always produce some energetic gammas as secondaries that should be not only be easily measured, but identified through spectroscopy. If you disagree, can you cite any evidence where this is not the case.

Actually the number of secondary *gammas* (i.e. due to stimulation of other nuclei) will be but a tiny fraction of the number of alphas produced, because
most of the energy of the alphas goes into stripping electrons off lattice atoms. When these electrons recombine with the resultant ions some x-rays, but mostly lower energy EM is produced (from whence the glow in the dark effect from radioisotopes).
So *some* yes, but only a very small amount, and none of these will be 24 MeV. So in my statement above I should have said "primarily" energetic alphas.

>
>> Just because no one previously noticed high energy examples [of lattice-coupling], doesn't necessarily mean that they are not possible. 
>
>They may be possible ! That is really beside the point. The point is that high probability nuclear-lattice coupling has no actual model in all of physics now, and presently no actual evidence for it (note I said "high probability"). It is not just unproven, but hypothetical - and one should probably not employ a hypothetical explanation to justify a controversial phenomenon... at least if widespread acceptance of your work is important to you. 

Since no existing theory can explain the results, it becomes necessary to come up with new theories that can. This too is part of the scientific process. The next step is to make predictions based upon those new theories, and test them with real experiments. In my previous post, I made certain suggestions which could be embodied in new experiments, and tested.
Sociologically speaking however you may be correct, if you want quick acceptance, you are far more likely to get it, if you can explain your results with existing theory. Nevertheless, it appears necessary in this case to actually introduce new theories. This isn't done just for sake of it, but rather because the situation demands it.

>
>If experimental reproducibility of  the controversial phenomenon is adequate, leave it at that. Or.... Prove the hypothetical methodology first, and then use that to help to improve on your experimentary evidence for the controversial phenomenon. 
>
>It really gets down to "layering" of probability. The skeptic or unconvinced observer of CF might not balk at what he considers to be the probability of the experimenter not making measurement error, so long as the experimenter doesn't layer that on top of that an explanation that is even more improbable... 


Whether or not an explanation is considered improbable is frequently a measure of the readers understanding, and varies considerably from person to person.

>
>BTW, one objection to my previous post that you might have raised is the suggestion that instead of accepting a fictional coupling mechanism, isn't the suggestion for a new type of nuclear reaction? Well, in point of fact, new types of nuclear reactions are discovered or proposed all the time. Since P&F you can probably find dozens of papers on new and weird double and triple beta decays, etc. Of course, your suggestion below takes a back-door run at that  <G>

Indeed, though the result would be pure helium, no gammas, heat in the lattice, and no glow in the dark. In short an excellent fit to the observations.

>
>And once again, the problem with the Mossbauer analogy is not just that it is low energy, but that it is also low probability at low energy and at low temperature. Three strikes and your out... as far as being able to hide that 24 MeV gamma.

While the effect does increase with a drop in temperature (a strong indication BTW that it depends upon De Broglie wave coupling), it is certainly still present to some extent at room temperature. As to low probability, that just makes it more likely that this is possibly the explanation of the CF phenomenon, as that too would appear to be low probability. As for the low energy aspect, I believe I have already dealt with that in my previous post.

>
>> The gist of your argument appears to be that even if such coupling were possible, then there should still be some reactions producing detectable gamma rays (correct me if this is not what you were trying to say).
>
>BINGO... I think you've got it...
>
>> However this argument assumes that the fusion reactions can occur without the lattice coupling. 
>
>Happens all the time...

Yes, but only in hot plasmas, and even then the little mongrels fight against it tooth and nail. ;)

>
>> That may not be the case. IOW no coupling -> no reaction, and hence no gamma rays.

Obviously, at low temperatures in a lattice.

>
>But D+D fusion reactions ONLY happen without coupling in reality, and have never been shown to happen with coupling. You're trying to use two negative hypotheticals to prove one positive reality...

In hot fusion they have no choice. In a sense, we provide them with the worst possible circumstances, then bend over backwards to force the issue anyway.
Our problem is that up until now, hot fusion is the only sort we have noticed in nature, and hence the only sort we have tried to emulate.
That doesn't however mean that it is the best or easiest way to achieve the goal.

>
>> The coupling itself may be the very agent of the reaction (as well as the energy removal mechanism).
>
>Then show that coupling can even happen at all, even at low probability in another experiment. For instance, alloy a gamma emitter into a Pd lattice and show that its emissions are coupled rather than scattered. From there on, it is far easier to proceed to the possibility that this could be the sine qua non of both the reaction and the conversion mechanism.

This is precisely what happens with Mφssbauer spectroscopy all the time.
It is well known that the specific lattice type is actually of little relevance, and in fact this technology is frequently used as a means of determining the precise nature of the chemical environment, if I'm not mistaken. 
I am however surprised that you haven't come up yet with Richard Blue's argument that there is a speed of light limitation on the energy of the reaction which this type of coupling will support.
(Which I must admit I haven't yet been able to even find, let alone fathom. Perhaps Ed Storms can help out on this one?)

>
>>  the mechanism which makes the fusion reaction possible is precisely the same mechanism which is responsible for distributing  the energy. It is not really two separate processes, but all part of a single process.
>
>Hey, I'd like to believe it. But there are so many simpler hypothetical possibilities, far more likely, to explain helium and these are explanations that don't involve the extraordinarily low probability of D+D> He, which is rare even in the core of the sun. 

But it precisely because it is in a hot fusion environment that is low probability! (Actually compared to the H + H -> D + e+ + nu reaction it is incredibly fast in the Sun).
The difference between a plasma and a lattice is that in a lattice movement is restricted, and when it does happen, it is far more likely to happen in harmony with one neighbours than at odds with them (because this is easier to do, and hence a lower energy option).
In a plasma, all motion is totally random.
The implication is that in a plasma, relative velocities between particles are high, and De Broglie wave lengths correspondingly short, which means particles must get very close together before they can tunnel. In a lattice the converse situation arises much more frequently.

>
>It just hardly ever happens anywhere so why would it happen here if there are simpler ways? Far more probable, for instance, is that helium results sequentially from a neutron being stripped off a deuterium in the lattice,

What makes you think it is easy to strip a neutron from deuterium?
Since 2.2 MeV was released when they combined, it is going to have to be found again if you want to separate them....unless I can interest you in some low mass protons and neutrons? ;)
[snip]


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

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In reply to  explorecraft's message of Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:16:41 +0700:
Hi,
[snip]
Horace:
>> Yes, a retrograde orbit would provide somewhat larger maximum possible
>> energy than a 90 degree mutual angle, but such an event is very unlikely
>> unless the source of the impacting body is a Nemesis cloud.  Retrograde
>> orbit objects with orbits in the ecliptic are fairly rare.
>
explorecraft:
>All that said, (Noting 2004 FY 15 hurtling past as we type)
> the number we know about is not yet enough to give a good accounting.
>
>The statistics at: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/stats/
> indicate we have only just begun the learning curve.
> Reconciling the number there with theory as proposed
> by Theodore Modis in Predictions (1992, sequel in 2002),
>  we don't even have a clue yet.
[snip]
The solar system oscillates up and own above the plane of the ecliptic of the galaxy. The greatest matter density in the galaxy occurs in the plane of the ecliptic, hence this plane is a likely incarnation of Horace's "Nemesis cloud". AFAIK we are due to pass through the centre of the plane of the ecliptic again on 21 Dec. 2012, so as we approach that date, one might well expect the frequency of close approaches to increase.

Does anyone know the frequency of the oscillation?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 3:03 PM 3/29/4, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>The solar system oscillates up and own above the plane of the ecliptic of
>the galaxy. The greatest matter density in the galaxy occurs in the plane
>of the ecliptic, hence this plane is a likely incarnation of Horace's
>"Nemesis cloud".


The "Nemesis cloud" concept is definitely not mine.  Not sure whose it is.
However I added a few obvious notions to the concept that may be but
probably are not original, like the fact the Nemesis star need not ever
return for the process to continue on unabated in the natural period of Ort
cloud, or more likely objects in a cloud well beyond the Ort cloud.


>AFAIK we are due to pass through the centre of the plane of the ecliptic
>again on 21 Dec. 2012, so as we approach that date, one might well expect
>the frequency of close approaches to increase.
>
>Does anyone know the frequency of the oscillation?


The above may be a misnomer.  The ecliptic is the plane of the earth's
orbit around the sun, which therefore also happens to be the apparent path
of the sun around the earth against the background of the celestial sphere.
It is called the ecliptic because it is the plane in which eclipses occur.
The earth is always in the ecliptic.

Our galaxy, the Milky Way, has a thin galactic disk, which defines the
plane of the galactic disk to which I suspect you refer above.  We are
located in an arm of the Milky Way.  The orbital time of our neighborhood
is around 200 million years.  (Now I'll go off the deep end above my head a
bit.)  Therefore, ignoring the gravitational effects of our neighborhood,
we would expect to cross the plane of the galactic disk every 200 million
years.  There are likely other motions imposed by the motion of our arm and
our immediate neighbors.  However, like an underlying base sin wave, there
should be an underlying major frequency of 1/(2^8 years).  Other motions
depend on our neighbors, but it seems to me they should be smaller in
amplitude than the main underlying orbital motion, because our entire
neighborhood is locked into the underlying orbital mechanics.  This is in
part because the vast amount of the mass of the galaxy is located at the
center, in a manner similar to the solar system.

It is a bit concerning that someone has fixed a specific date for a motion
of this kind.  This does not sound like it would be possible - to pin down
such a date.  The plane of the galaxy is not all that well defined.
Rather, it sounds like someone has picked a specific orientation of the
equinoxes, which are defined by the line where the plane of the ecliptic
intersects the celestial equator.  The imaginary points in space toward
where the line disappears are the equinoxes.  The sun is located on the
equinox line at the time of the equinoxes.  The celestial equator is a
plane through the earth's equator, and thus it moves in concert with the
earth's polar precession.  The equinox points therefore move against the
celestial sphere, and this was very important to the ancients.  The
orientation of the equinox defines the astrological age, for example.  We
are now in the age of Aquarius because the spring equinox is located in
Aquarius.  Astrological ages are like the big hand on a clock. They could
be used to fortell distant events with some precision.  However, the rate
of the earth's precession is not fully known because the earth wobbles and
the rate has an unpredictable character to it when examined in the short
term.

I seem to be rambling and I don't know if any of this helps.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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At 7:32 PM 3/28/4, SnowDog wrote:

>If there is no blue at all in an image, the blue filtered images would still
>be adjusted so that there is at least one spot with maximum brightness. Each
>filtered image is adjusted accordingly.

Adjusted by what?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Mar 28 22:19:12 2004
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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:16:34 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Grimer <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 03:03 pm 29-03-04 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
.
>[snip]
.
>The solar system oscillates up and own above the 
>plane of the ecliptic of the galaxy. The greatest 
>matter density in the galaxy occurs in the plane 
>of the ecliptic, hence this plane is a likely 
>incarnation of Horace's "Nemesis cloud". AFAIK we
>are due to pass through the centre of the plane 
>of the ecliptic again on 21 Dec. 2012, so as we 
>approach that date, one might well expect the 
>frequency of close approaches to increase.
>
>Does anyone know the frequency of the oscillation?


I presume this article would give it - 
if anyone has access to the complete article.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?1985Natur.317..338S

Abstract
A new study is presented of the observational 
evidence pertaining to the theory which attributes 
the episodic component of the earth's impact 
cratering record over the past 600 Myr to 
gravitational encounters between the solar system 
and interstellar clouds that cause comets to fall 
into the solar system and impact the earth. 
Contrary to a claim by Thaddeus and Chanan (1985), 
the vertical scale height of the clouds seems to
be sufficently small and the sun's vertical 
trajectory sufficiently large for the modulating 
effect of the sun's galactovertical motion to be 
detectable in the terrestrial record of impact 
cratering with at least a 50 percent a priori 
probability. 

Interesting  :-)

Frank Grimer

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 9:16 AM 3/29/4, explorecraft wrote:

>All that said, (Noting 2004 FY 15 hurtling past as we type)
> the number we know about is not yet enough to give a good accounting.
>
>The statistics at: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/stats/
> indicate we have only just begun the learning curve.
> Reconciling the number there with theory as proposed
> by Theodore Modis in Predictions (1992, sequel in 2002),
>  we don't even have a clue yet.


How true!  And did you see the size of the objects being cataloged?  They
are HUGE!  And only those in timid near earth orbits are being cataloged.
That's because they are the only comparatively small objects that CAN be
cataloged.  The Ort cloud stuff is not even visible.  The only way to
detect that stuff is by radar or lidar (laser).

Since the bottom end of the large ones is about a km diamater, or about 500
m radius, they represent  (.665 MT)[(500 m)/(15.24 m)]^3 = 23,500 megatons
TNT.  Each object in the bottom end of the "large" range represents, at
very minimum,  the rough equivalent of a global thermonuclear war.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 10:16 PM 3/28/4, Grimer wrote:

>I presume this article would give it -
>if anyone has access to the complete article.
>
>http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?1985Natur.317..338S
>
>Abstract
>A new study is presented of the observational
>evidence pertaining to the theory which attributes
>the episodic component of the earth's impact
>cratering record over the past 600 Myr to
>gravitational encounters between the solar system
>and interstellar clouds that cause comets to fall
>into the solar system and impact the earth.
>Contrary to a claim by Thaddeus and Chanan (1985),
>the vertical scale height of the clouds seems to
>be sufficently small and the sun's vertical
>trajectory sufficiently large for the modulating
>effect of the sun's galactovertical motion to be
>detectable in the terrestrial record of impact
>cratering with at least a 50 percent a priori
>probability.


Say, since the earth has a 200 My galactic obrital period, it should cross
the galactic plane in opposite directions once every 50 years, once every
100 My in the same direction.  The above premise works a priori with the
commonly accepted major extinctions, on average, so I have to wonder if
this is why they made the prediction. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy.
The major extinctions occurred about 6 times in the last 600 million years,
so this is right in average terms.

Cambrian  570 -500        70 *
Ordovician 500-430        70  *
Silurian   430-395           35
Devonian 395-345          50 *
Carboniferous 345-280  65
Permian 280-225           55 *
Triassic 225-195            30 *
Jurassic 195-136           56
Cretaceous 136-65        79 *
Tertiary 65-present       65

* general agreement on extiction

Tere are essentially 5 events in each of the last two 300 million year
periods (600-300, 300-present).

If we take only the periods in which it is generally agreed that major
extinction events occurred we get the following pattern:

Cambrian  570          70 *
Ordovician 500       105  *
Devonian 395          115 *
Permian 280             55 *
Triassic 225           86 *
Cretaceous 136        144*

In this perspective there are 3 events in each of the last 300 million year
periods, or on average one event every 100 million years.

The main problem with this theory is the lack of extinctions in the
Pre-Cambian period.  That fact leads me to believe a one time perterbation
about 600 million years ago must have started the process.  It may be
possible we got gravitationally entangled with a partner Nemesis rock or
cloud that orbits at the same galactic radius but always occupies
approximately the opposing galactic latitude.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 01:18:21 2004
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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--part1_102.415c79a8.2d9943ba_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I used to be vaguely embarrassed when astronomers would point out that aliens 
might detect humanity first through original broadcasts of "I Love Lucy." But 
even that beats introducing oneself to the Cosmos through farts!

Seriously, I'm surprised we didn't detect this earlier. Even the very 
optimistic David Grinspoon has argued that Mars is dead, citing its atmospheric 
equilibrium.

Erik Baard

--part1_102.415c79a8.2d9943ba_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I used to be vaguely embarrassed wh=
en astronomers would point out that aliens might detect humanity first throu=
gh original broadcasts of "I Love Lucy." But even that beats introducing one=
self to the Cosmos through farts!<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, I'm surprised we didn't detect this earlier. Even the very optimi=
stic David Grinspoon has argued that Mars is dead, citing its atmospheric eq=
uilibrium.<BR>
<BR>
Erik Baard</FONT></HTML>

--part1_102.415c79a8.2d9943ba_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 01:47:19 2004
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> >If there is no blue at all in an image, the blue filtered images would
still
> >be adjusted so that there is at least one spot with maximum brightness.
Each
> >filtered image is adjusted accordingly.
>
> Adjusted by what?

Before transmission to Earth, the PanCam adjusts each image so that the
maximum value in the image is 255, and so that the minimum value in the
image is 0. Apparently, this improves their compression performance. These
images have to be adjusted back upon arrival to Earth by using calibration
data supplied in the transmission, which is unique to each image. This image
processing has several repercussions for us:

1) The images are put on the website without any adjustment. We do not see
the original image.

2) The adjustment data is not released on the website with the image. It
will be several months before the adjustment data is released.

3) Most images with the rover in the foreground will generally look good and
not need any adjustment. All it takes is a small shiny bright spot in the
image to prevent the PanCam from making any adjustment to the image. So if
you make color pictures of the color wheel, most of them will come out
looking good, balanced for white light.

4) Almost all pictures without the rover in the foreground WILL require some
unknown adjustment.

5) Because there is less blue and green color in the environment than red,
the blue and green filtered images are exagerated the most, in most pictures
of the environment. The less blue there is in the environment, the more blue
there will be in the image because of the Pancam's adjustment.

The problem is illustrated the best in the first two images on this page,
(if it loads).

http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars4.htm

The ONLY difference between the two pictures is that the second one contains
a small section showing a shiny part of the rover. Because the second
picture has a section which is already set to maximum, the PanCam can not
adjust the second image, and hence, it looks like red Mars. The first image,
however, has almost no red, and is full of blue hues precisely because there
is no blue in the original image. All of these blue hues are artificial.

It took me about 3 weeks to research this back in February.

Craig Haynie (Houston)

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Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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> Before transmission to Earth, the PanCam adjusts each image so that the
> maximum value in the image is 255, and so that the minimum value in the
> image is 0.

Small correction. The original image is has 12-bit pixels. The value is not
255, but the maximum value possible for the image.

Craig

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In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:46:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:

> Yesterday I posted a theoretical mechanism which would result in energetic 
> alphas (and perhaps energetic electrons) rather than gamma rays. 
> 

The process must conserve momentum and energy.  The difference between the 
mass energy of the reactants and the products is the excess Q of the reaction.  
This extra energy must be dissipated.  The dissipation process must conserve 
both momentum and energy.  If two daughter nucleons are produced the kinetic 
energy is carried away by the daughter nucleons.  The momentum is balanced by 
the angle in which the daughter nucleons shoot away.  If a single daughter 
nucleon is produced like helium four, it is quite impossible for the reaction to 
conserve both momentum and energy.  The result is the excess Q is carried away 
by an energetic photon.



Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:46:=
05 PM Eastern Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Yesterday I posted a theoretica=
l mechanism which would result in energetic alphas (and perhaps energetic el=
ectrons) rather than gamma rays. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
The process must conserve momentum and energy.&nbsp; The difference between=20=
the mass energy of the reactants and the products is the excess Q of the rea=
ction.&nbsp; This extra energy must be dissipated.&nbsp; The dissipation pro=
cess must conserve both momentum and energy.&nbsp; If two daughter nucleons=20=
are produced the kinetic energy is carried away by the daughter nucleons.&nb=
sp; The momentum is balanced by the angle in which the daughter nucleons sho=
ot away.&nbsp; If a single daughter nucleon is produced like helium four, it=
 is quite impossible for the reaction to conserve both momentum and energy.&=
nbsp; The result is the excess Q is carried away by an energetic photon.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:46:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:

> a strong indication BTW that it depends upon De Broglie wave coupling), 

I thought of this also.  It does not fit with the facts.  The debrogle 
wavelength is longer with colder system.  The positive temperature coefficient of 
cold fusion does not bode well for the deBrogle path.

Frank Z

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:46:=
05 PM Eastern Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">a strong indication BTW that it=
 depends upon De Broglie wave coupling), </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I thought of this also.&nbsp; It does not fit with the facts.&nbsp; The debr=
ogle wavelength is longer with colder system.&nbsp; The positive temperature=
 coefficient of cold fusion does not bode well for the deBrogle path.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Z</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d1.8a0705f.2d997f56_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 07:23:41 2004
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Frank Z writes,
 
> RvS: "Yesterday I posted a theoretical mechanism which would result in energetic alphas (and perhaps energetic electrons) rather than gamma rays." 
  
> FZ: "The process must conserve momentum and energy.  The difference between the  mass energy of the reactants and the products is the excess Q of the reaction.  This extra energy must be dissipated.  The dissipation process must conserve both momentum and energy.  If two daughter nucleons are produced the kinetic energy is carried away by the daughter nucleons.  The momentum is balanced by  the angle in which the daughter nucleons shoot away.  If a single daughter nucleon is produced like helium four, it is quite impossible for the reaction to 
 conserve both momentum and energy.  The result is the excess Q is carried away by an energetic photon."

Excellent point, Frank, and this is precisely why the D+D > He reaction is so rare, not only on the sun but also on Earth - in a lattice or not. 

Nature just does not favor any high Q process where this level of energy must be carried away by massless or nearly massless (neutrino) entities. D +T has such an incredibly larger cross-section than  D+D for just this reason - there you have a high mass neutron to carry away the bulk of the energy, and consequently your cross section is thousands of magnitudes higher because of that one factor.  And wave transfer also qualifies as massless, so it is definitely not a favored process. And at any rate, there must be some arguable mass-energy transfer mechanism between the nascent He and the lattice beyond wave dynamics. To say it is just "coupled" is meaningless. How is it coupled (is it purely a deBroglie thing or does it involve kinetics?).

Frank Z's observation "The positive temperature coefficient of cold fusion does not bode well for the deBroglie path" is very relevant here and should eliminate pure wave coupling from consideration. When you telegraph those temperature coefficients back to the matrix, you get huge relative variations at angstrom dimensions, and no wave-based mechanism could be that flexible to this kind of variability. The world would just fall apart if this could happen.

> RvS  I am however surprised that you haven't come up yet with Richard Blue's argument that there is a speed of light limitation on the energy of the reaction which this type of coupling will support.
(Which I must admit I haven't yet been able to even find, let alone fathom. Perhaps Ed Storms can help out on this one?)

Well, it is a good argument but one doesn't want to clutter up a post with too much of Blue's logic - although he is quite perceptive at times but usually obstinate at other times. Actually, I really wish we had an intelligent skeptic on this forum, as some of these arguments we are tossing around need to be refined further, and most of us here "want to believe" in the process to such a degree that we seldom raise objections (unless the "standard" rationalizations get just too improbable, as in the case of lattice coupling).

In the case of dissipating 24 MeV - so that it is unmeasureable as photon radiation, the speed of light limitation would certainly come into play. But, even without that major problem, consider this: if your GM radiation monitor was sensitive to 10 KeV, then that means that the first step of lattice coupling would have to involve over 2000 simultaneous and approximately equal energy transfers (wave or otherwise) to avoid detection. Whereas, in the matrix cavity itself (FCC crystal) the number of initial close routes for this are limited to 6-20 arguable adjacent atoms, in that there are only so many adjacent Pd atoms that can be disrupted before the putative transfer-wavelength gets to ridiculous proportions. So that observation seems to negate a single large first step and therefore, at best it doesn't seem like it could be a smooth process - even if the "positive temperature coefficient" problem could be overcome, which is doubtful.

But most of all, being human in this analysis, we are often all led back to those amazing SEM images showing the vortex implosion. This is clearly not evidence for any kind of coupling and/or energy dissipation process. Explosions simply do not look that way, at least at the large scales we are used to seeing for normal explosions.  This is a clear *implosion* in my mind - not an explosion, at least at the start of the reaction. If anything, it looks to me like the images are showing that much of the energy is actually EXITING the matrix through implosion, rather than being dissipated. 

How can that be? Where is the exit path in a vortex implosion? We have no other choice but to consider an extra-dimensional path and the implications of Dirac's sea. Perhaps this loss of energy by implosion is a result of there being a *local deficit* of mass/energy in some hidden medium (Dirac's sea) that must be replenished ! Why could there be a local deficit - Clearly, that deficit must be a vestige of energy having already been withdraw more gradually in advance.

Don't give me that disbelieving scowl. In QM it is common for time reversed reactions at this scale, is it not?

OK. Things start getting really weird when you jump into Dirac's sea with your QM life preserver, so if I am getting too far out on the plank, let me know as I see some sharks circling as we speak...

Jones







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Hi All,

Some more info on the cyclical patterns of global warming.

Jack Smith

---------------------------

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/03/01/MNGEL5B7VE1.DTL

CHANGING CLIMATE 

Going to depths for evidence of global warming 

Heating trend in North Pacific baffles researchers 

Keay Davidson, San Francisco Chronicle Science Writer 

Monday, March 1, 2004

A puzzling heating trend on the bottom of the North
Pacific has left oceanographers scratching their heads. 

Since 1985, just south of the Aleutian Islands and
about 3 miles beneath the waves, in a pitch-black
realm haunted by "Finding Nemo"-style fish with
nasty fangs and glowing antennae, the temperature
has risen by a tiny fraction of a degree --
five-thousandths of a degree Centigrade, to be exact. 

Sounds slight, right? But the temperature shouldn't
be rising at all, or hardly at all, over such a
geologically short time, according to respected
computer models. The history of science shows
that slight discrepancies occasionally lead to big
discoveries, hence oceanographers are carefully
scrutinizing the find. 

"We find that the deepest waters of the North
Pacific Ocean have warmed significantly across
the entire width of the ocean basin," Japanese and
Canadian scientists report in the current issue of
the journal Nature. 

Masao Fukasawa of the Japan Marine Science and
Technology Center in Yokosuka, Japan, and five
other researchers discovered the temperature
change by going to sea on three research vessels
and measuring deep-water temperatures across
the North Pacific. Then they compared those
temperature measurements to measurements
made by researchers in 1985. 

The warming isn't caused by an impending El Niρo,
one of those quasi- cyclical Pacific warming
episodes that turn California either into a floodplain
or a drought land, experts say. That's because El
Niρos concentrate farther south and in shallower water. 

Nor can the warming be blamed on undersea
volcanic eruptions -- not easily, anyway.
Volcanoes heat water only over short distances,
whereas the observed deep-sea warming
stretches from one side of the North Pacific to the
other, the scientists say. 

Climate scientist Andrew Weaver, of the
University of Victoria in British Columbia, said the
undersea-volcanism possibility "was one of the
first things I thought about" when he read the
Nature paper. Even so, Weaver, who isn't
connected with the Fukasawa team, doubts that
explanation because the warming is so uniform
over a large area, whereas undersea volcanism
tends to be along midocean ridges. 

The warming is especially strange because the
deep waters of the North Pacific are an old folks'
home of the global ocean -- a sluggish, bone-
chilling abyss where, according to theory, nothing
happens very fast. Here are some of the world's
"oldest" oceanic waters, about 800 years old. That
is, they began sinking from the ocean surface to the
seafloor during the days of the Vikings. 

Or so scientists assumed. Now, the Nature article
reports that by some unknown means and much
faster than assumed, the solar-heated water is
finding its way to the ocean floor in decades, not
centuries. In fact, the researchers estimate it
reached the bottom within 50 years. 

But how? 

The Fukasawa team's findings show a warming in
the deep North Pacific over a "shorter time scale
and larger spatial scale than (has) ever been
believed," Fukasawa said in an e-mail. "As (far) as
I know, our result is the first which shows such a
large-scale temperature change in the global
thermohaline circulation," that is, in global heat and
salt circulation via ocean currents. 

Joseph Reid, a veteran oceanographer at Scripps
Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla (San Diego
County), not associated with the research, said the
undersea heating "is surprisingly large over that
period of time, some 20 years. It's the first
convincing evidence of warming at that depth. I can
say I was surprised." 

It's much too soon to blame global warming for the
deep-sea warming, Reid and other experts caution.
"To go from this (observation) to say, 'This is global
warming,' is just a guess," Reid said. In any case,
"this (Fukasawa result) is something that should be
watched very carefully." 

At the very least, the Fukasawa finding indicates
that computer models of ocean circulation --
which are vital for monitoring climate change --
are badly in need of a tuneup. The discovery was
not explicitly predicted by any known computer
models of ocean circulation. 

This issue of computer-model reliability is more
than academic. Humanity's fate could be foretold
by future, improved computer models of the ocean. 

That's because the ocean is the 800-pound gorilla
of the global climate. It stores an enormous amount
of solar heat -- it is a "1,000 times bigger heat
'sink' ... than the atmosphere," Fukasawa said. In
temperate zones, many coastal cities (like San
Francisco) have mild, Mediterranean-style
climates partly because offshore waters store
excess heat in hot weather and release heat into
the atmosphere during the winter, moderating the
thermometer's ups and downs. 

Hence the forecasting of future climate relies partly
on the answer to this question: How long does the
ocean store heat before dumping it back into the
atmosphere? Normally, ocean currents circulate
the heat vertically and horizontally throughout the
sea, from pole to pole, much as cooling fluids
circulate through a refrigerator or air conditioner. 

A slight disruption in currents can bring climate change. 

For example: After an ice age ends, melting
glaciers unleash fresh water into the sea. The fresh
water dilutes the salty, heat-bearing ocean current
so much that it becomes too low-density and,
hence, too buoyant to continue sinking into the
depths where it would normally cool off. Instead,
the current dumps its stored heat into the
atmosphere, worsening the post-glacial warming
trend. In that regard: Could the undersea warming
be an omen of a recently hypothesized cataclysm
-- a global breakdown in oceanic circulation? 

In recent years, researchers have uncovered
evidence that the "conveyor belt" of ocean heat
and salt circulation repeatedly broke down during
prehistoric times, disrupting global climate.
Consider that the Gulf Stream ferries warm water
across the North Atlantic, keeping Europe
relatively warm. If the northward current stalled
like a broken conveyor belt, the Thames might
freeze and the Eiffel Tower might sprout icicles. 

Some scientists, notably climate guru Wallace
Broecker of Columbia University, speculate that
present global warming might bring another
breakdown in thermohaline circulation in the
foreseeable future. 

Where scientific speculators tread, Hollywood is
rarely far behind. In the forthcoming
science-fiction thriller "The Day After
Tomorrow," due in theaters in late May, a
breakdown of thermohaline circulation figures in
the onscreen climatic catastrophe. 

Luckily, audiences can safely tell themselves, "It's
only a movie." While thermohaline breakdowns
happened many times over the past 100,000 years,
these occurred during major ice ages when there
was enough melting ice to flush Niagaras of fresh
water into the sea and to disrupt current buoyancy,
Weaver said. By contrast, conditions today are too
different for such a grandiose disaster. 

E-mail Keay Davidson at kdavidson sfchronicle.com. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 08:19:39 2004
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Subject: Sun vaporize earth - my arithmetic
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I have computed approximately how long it would take the full power of the 
sun to vaporize Planet Earth. I would appreciate if someone would check my 
arithmetic. Various Web sources estimate one to three days. I came up with 
28 hours. Here are the numbers:

Sun's energy: 3.8E26 watts
Mass of Earth: 6E27 grams Fe (assume it is all Fe)

Fe:
1535 deg C melting point
2750 deg C boiling point
13.8 KJ/mol heat of fusion
349 KJ/mol heat of vaporization
specific heat 0.44 J/g

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Fe/heat.html

1 mol Fe = 56 g
Assume average starting temperature of the earth 30 deg C.

6500 J/g to vaporize 1 g Fe
3.9E31 joules to vaporize earth

102,630 seconds of sun's output = 28.5 hours

This is for the entire output of the sun. I suppose if the Earth stopped 
orbiting and fell into the sun it would only absorb a fraction of the 
output and it would take longer than this to vaporize. That surprises me.

The point is to back up my assertion that energy is the most abundant 
resource in the solar system. Water is the most abundant substance on 
earth. It is ironic that mankind has pretty much stopped fighting wars over 
resources, but the two things we still fight to kill for are energy and 
water. It is a measure of how stupid our governments are.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 09:51:27 2004
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Don't know how precise you intend to get with this, but if you want a fairly accurate time frame before vaporization, you must also consider how fast the earth radiates-off the energy input and how effective increased surface vaporization is at scattering the incoming radiation.

The secondary radiation rate is a function of the temperature, so as the temperature rises the radiation rate rises in step and long before you even get to deep subsurface melting,  your surface vaporization would scatter the incoming level to reach an equilibrium point with the outgoing that varied with the distance and surface temperature. IOW earth would probably take many years to ever vaporize totally from its present orbit, even if the sun's present total output could be focused on us from it present distance, because the downshifted solar radiation will reach equilibrium with the earth's secondary re-radiation rate, probably at a surface temperature of around 2000 degree C, far lower than many metals vaporize.

However once enough surface mass was lost to vaporization, then the earths orbit would shorten. It would take a complex computer program to include all the dynamics, but it would probably be a considerable time frame, depending on other assumptions (like how the sun's radiation could be focused and what would be the maximum flux that could be transferable to our orbit over that distance.)
 
Jones

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Sun vaporize earth - my arithmetic
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Jones Beene writes:

 > Don't know how precise you intend to get with this . . .

Not too precise. I just want to confirm it is ~28 hours and not 28 seconds 
or 28 weeks.


 > IOW earth would probably take many years to ever vaporize totally
 > from its present orbit, even if the sun's present total output could be
 > focused on us from it present distance . . .

I was thinking more of picking up the whole planet and chucking it into the 
sun, or holding it close to the surface. I had not thought how to direct 
the entire output of the sun toward the earth. Perhaps with mirrors?

Needless to say, chucking the planet into the sun would present significant 
engineering difficulties. It is not a plausible scenario. However, it is 
plausible to imagine that in the distant future people may use any 
significant fraction of the sun's output for some gigantic engineer project.

I have been reading a book published by Scientific American, "Extreme 
Science, The Highway of Light and other engineering oddities" (Sci. Am., 
2001). It includes speculation about future technologies. The title refers 
to the technique of driving spacecraft with ground-based lasers. When I 
read about this technique years ago some skeptics said it would never be 
practical for interstellar travel because it would take such a massive 
amounts of energy. I recall one of them said it was out of the question 
because it would take more than all the energy generated on earth. When I 
read that, I thought: "So what? A space based system tapping the sun could 
produce a million times more energy than we generate on Earth, and nobody 
would notice or care." That is a typical narrow minded skeptical objection. 
Arthur Clark once characterized such objections as saying, "blimps will 
never fly faster than sound."

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 11:09:03 2004
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Jed,

 > I was thinking more of picking up the whole planet and chucking it into the  sun, or holding it close to the surface. I had not thought how to direct  the entire output of the sun toward the earth. Perhaps with mirrors?

I don't mean to sound obstinate and I will look closer at your math but, even thown into the sun, it would take some extended time to vaporize the earth because of energy transfer dynamics.

By analogy, lets say you heat a cast iron skillet to red hot. There is enought potential energy there in theory to vaporize several ounces of water immediately, even if you shut off the flame. BUT take a few drops of water (or spittal, if you want of use another analogy) and aim that towards the surface and it will bounce around for a seeming eternity on the skillet before succumbing to the heat - its just a fact of thermodynamics that mass transfers can only proceed so fast in a given energy spectrum.

> However, it is  plausible to imagine that in the distant future people may use any significant fraction of the sun's output for some gigantic engineer project.

Yes, indeed. But to vaporize anything of planetary size, you need to make that energy ouput COHERENT like the laser you mention. This gives many orders of magnitute more energy density, or flux. This might not be impossible to pull, however. But you might also need to choose a laser frequency that is not scattered by exiting vapor of whatever is your target - and that would mean something up in the x-ray region - still not impossible but things are getting dicier. However for externally powered rocket acceleration, the scattering might be advantageous in a number of ways, so something like a infrared laser might be ideal.
 
> I have been reading a book published by Scientific American, "Extreme  Science, The Highway of Light and other engineering oddities" (Sci. Am.,  2001). It includes speculation about future technologies. 

They probably mention that SciFi story (maybe of Arthur Clarke) about using thousands of special robots from earth to convert the iron in a planet like Mercury into an extremely large thin mirror - and that may be doable - but upshifting and cohering that energy into an x-ray laser is beyond anything that I can imagine.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 11:51:33 2004
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Sun vaporize earth - my arithmetic
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>I have computed approximately how long it would take the full power of the
>sun to vaporize Planet Earth. I would appreciate if someone would check my
>arithmetic. Various Web sources estimate one to three days. I came up with
>28 hours. Here are the numbers:
>
>Sun's energy: 3.8E26 watts             (actually sun's power = 3.87E26 W)
>Mass of Earth: 6E27 grams Fe (assume it is all Fe)
>
>Fe:
>1535 deg C melting point
>2750 deg C boiling point
>13.8 KJ/mol heat of fusion                 = 247.3 j/g
>349 KJ/mol heat of vaporization            = 6232 j/g
>specific heat 0.44 J/g
>
>http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Fe/heat.html
>
>1 mol Fe = 56 g
>Assume average starting temperature of the earth 30 deg C.
>
>6500 J/g to vaporize 1 g Fe                 6479 j/g
>3.9E31 joules to vaporize earth
>
>102,630 seconds of sun's output = 28.5 hours
>
>This is for the entire output of the sun. I suppose if the Earth stopped
>orbiting and fell into the sun it would only absorb a fraction of the
>output and it would take longer than this to vaporize. That surprises me.
>
>The point is to back up my assertion that energy is the most abundant
>resource in the solar system. Water is the most abundant substance on
>earth. It is ironic that mankind has pretty much stopped fighting wars over
>resources, but the two things we still fight to kill for are energy and
>water. It is a measure of how stupid our governments are.
>
>- Jed


The above numbers all look roughly correct to me.  The power density of the
sun is amazingly low.

I should note that if the earth fell into the sun it should vaporize fairly
fast due to its kinetic energy and high internal solar density.  Using
1.979E30 kg for mass of sun and 860,000 mi for diameter, or 6.92E8 meters,
I get an escape velocity = sqrt (2Gm/r) = 6.18E5 m/s for the sun. That
gives energy/gram = 0.5*(1 gm)*(v^2)/(1 g) = 1.9E8 J/g, or 190 megajoules
per gram, or about 29000 times the heat required to vaporize the iron.
That's a total collision energy of (1.9E8 J/g)(6E27 g) = 1.14E36 J.  The
sun's output is only 3.8E26 J/s.  The collision energy is thus 2.9 billion
seconds, or about 91 years of solar heat output.  If that kind of energy
were radiated even over the period of a year, due to some earth sized body
hitting the sun, the earth would be a very crispy critter.

This shows why I suggest that a Nemesis cloud need not produce earth
impacts to produce major extinctions.  A sufficient tonnage of solar
impacts would be plenty good enough.  They should be capable of generating
large solar flares and thus, if nothing else, momentarily greatly
increasing the solar radiating area.

Hopefully my computations are correct.  (You never know!)  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 11:07 AM 3/29/4, Jones Beene wrote:

>
>They probably mention that SciFi story (maybe of Arthur Clarke) about
>using thousands of special robots from earth to convert the iron in a
>planet like Mercury into an extremely large thin mirror - and that may be
>doable - but upshifting and cohering that energy into an x-ray laser is
>beyond anything that I can imagine.

Computations of this kind are based on the exponential growth rates of
economies.  If an economy grows at a sustained (compounded) rate, then a
task of any size is eventually, and even amazingly quickly, possible.  Once
robots are in the picture (in an economy) the sky is not even the limit.
Tasks like consuming planets to build a device, say a spherical energy
collector and habitable surface around a star, are soon no longer out of
the question.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 12:00:41 2004
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Nasa said this rock was harder than the other rocks. How could it be ice and be harder?

- Rick

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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Nasa said this rock was harder than the other rocks. How could it be ice and be harder?
>

Maybe it's pure quartz?

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>They should be capable of generating
>large solar flares and thus, if nothing else, momentarily greatly
>increasing the solar radiating area.
>

There has been more than one incidence of coronal mass ejections which 
appear to be caused by comets plunging into the sun as evidenced by SOHO 
images.

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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:42:07 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC More about voting machines
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Here is a letter I just sent to a low-level Georgia Election Official.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I recently sent you an informal report I wrote about my experiences 
Georgia's voting machines. In it, I wondered whether it would be possible 
to link voters with their ballots, given the information that is collected 
at the precincts. A recent report in "IEEE Symposium on Security and 
Privacy 2004" shows that it would be very easy. Three computer experts 
surreptitiously acquired and analyzed the source code for Diebold voting 
machines, from a corporate file called "rob-georgia." (This is the program 
code that was loaded into Georgia's voting machines.) The experts found 
that all individual records are preserved in the order they are cast. 
Individual records are sometimes even transmitted in plaintext, in the 
order cast. This paper also shows that voting machines can easily be 
hacked, all machines have the same password (which is written plaintext in 
the source code), and in many other ways they fail to meet elementary 
security standards. See:

<http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf>http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf

Here is a long article about voting machines that confirms some of my worst 
fears about them:

"How E-voting Threatens Democracy," Wired Magazine

<http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,62790,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1>http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,62790,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

I suggest you bring this information to the attention of other county 
elections officials.

- Jed Rothwell


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From: Josh8103579212 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:50:50 EST
Subject: EVOLUTIONARY Electrical tech's video demos
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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-------------------------------1080593450
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Content-Language: en

www.evolutionarytechnologies.us  currently down loading  is slow. Video's ca=
n=20
be downloaded of unexplainable by science  electrical conversion and=20
conversation  premises  and two separate neutrino gathering/converter device=
s.  The=20
single phase 220 V. AC to 3 Phase device totally changes the current 120 yea=
r=20
old scientific understanding of AC  current.=20

The device utilizes the now wasted kinetic power loss energy already=20
contained in the delivery process. The device converts those aspects into a=20=
new no=20
power loss form of industrial 3 phase and causes a 50% mech. performance inc=
rease=20
to occur in electrical motors. There is also a more advanced 110 V to 3 Phas=
e=20
premise.=20

The conversion process also draws free electrons from the earth and feeds=20
that aspect back to the grid to help compensate for usage.  As far as i know=
 =20
Present converters in the market place cannot compete.     =20

 The other two devices are different neutrino gathering/converters. That=20
belong to contacts.  One is starting a vehicle with the battery disconnected=
. The=20
other will produce 18 watts. Larger versions of that device exist.  below is=
 A=20
review by a Ph.D EE=20
In a message dated 3/7/2004 1:25:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
dr_deleted hotmail.com writes:
I have spent many hours discussing the details of these technologies with=20
Jack Carey, and he seems completely sincere in his claims.  Some have critic=
ized=20
Jack as being non-technical.  It is unfortunate that some individuals=20
criticize the works of others, without taking the time to investigate furthe=
r than the=20
ends of their own noses.=20
My impression of Jack, is that, although more business oriented than=20
technical, his technical information does seem to come from serious research=
ers, which=20
he has worked with.  Furthermore Jack is a promoter, and understandable not=20
interested in giving away vital information, to this technology.

The videos are nothing short of amazing.  Anyone who actually works with hig=
h=20
power electrical equipment would immediately know that it is impossible to=20
run 10 hp worth of motors, a large drill press, as well as lighting up an=20
arc welder, and start welding things, and all simultaneously running off a=20
single 3 hp phase converter.  Yet, this is exactly what is shown in the vide=
o. =20
Other footage on the video shows a researcher from =E2=80=98Infinite Energy=20=
Magazine=E2=80=99=20
using a 3 phase power meter to measure the electrical power going to a 5 hp=20
air compressor.=20

  The investigator is completely amazed to see 400W driving a 5 hp air=20
compressor, as well he should be!  Five hp is equivalent to several thousand=
 watts=20
of electrical power.  Even if the motor is not running under full load, 400W=
=20
should not be able to turn the motor, but it does.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 '''' REPLY  CLAIRIFICATION In the current world.  The commerical large two=20
stage compressor shown operational in the video calls for a 5 Hp.   But that=
=20
has been replaced with a 3 Hp. motor. Because a 3 is all that is needed beca=
use=20
of the claimed new form of evolutionary cost effective no power loss 3 phase=
=20
electricity the converter is creating from single phase. Contact a Manuf. of=
=20
Air Com. A 5 Hp motor is used for a reason. The motor has to be of a certain=
=20
size in order to operate the Com. head. =20

  That occurence translates into currently unimaginal and unexplainable with=
=20
known knowledge  EFFICIENCY.  Simple common sense says  If a 3 performs the=20
same as a 5. Then less power is required. In this case apparently far less.=20=
Now=20
factor in a claimed feed back to grid power factor occurrence the device=20
creates. That seperate power factor is derived from free electrons that are=20
provided by the earth.   Naturally at this point I do not expect anyone to b=
elieve=20
that.=20

 Lets explore the business side.  Now factor in just industrial electrical=20
usage on a planetary scale. According to the DOE 64% of the electricity coms=
umed=20
in the US is being consumed by electric motors. Now factor in projected=20
electrical usage will double in one generation. Are we looking at spending s=
ay 400=20
billion this century to upgrade the grid and built more generating plants? =20
Would that be necessary if we could drastically reduce usage as the premise=20
indicates? To be able to see a possibility of that magnitude requires seriou=
s=20
vision. The question is who can think at that level. The answer is very few.=
 =20
Believe me I have searched for ones that can.

 DISCLAIMER  He is only rendering an an objective evaluation. Derived from=20
viewing video's and phone discussions  He is not indorsing the claims. Nor i=
s he=20
supporting me or are we associated in any way.   I will say  His written=20
grammar does excede mine.=20

Possible new understandings are not easy to establish. Especially when there=
=20
is a 120 years of science that totally contradicts the purposed claims. Main=
=20
stream Science thinks they know all there is about the dominate aspect of ou=
r=20
civilization AC Current. If the claims are factual they are in for a very ru=
de=20
awaking. I would like to thank the Eng. for the time and effort he dedicated=
=20
in order to provide the unbiased non judgmental evaluation.              =20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Jack tells me that the phase converter produces a new form of electricity,=20
which causes the motor to run cool, and up to 50% more efficiently than if r=
un=20
on normal electricity.  He says there are two components of normal electrici=
ty,=20
a =E2=80=98work factor=E2=80=99 component and a non-useful =E2=80=98heat fac=
tor=E2=80=99 component.  The=20
phase converter converts the normally unused (and counter productive) =E2=
=80=98heat=20
factor=E2=80=99 in to a useful =E2=80=98work factor=E2=80=99, making the 3 p=
hase motors run up to 50%=20
more efficiently.

If what Jack is saying about the video footage is correct, this implies that=
=20
new physical laws may have to be constructed to describe this new form of=20
electricity.  We should remember that when the physical world tells us=20
something new and unexpected is going on, the only responsible action, as a=20
researcher, is to fully investigate the new phenomenon.  The evidence presen=
ted=20
in these videos is definitely something worthy of further investigation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
---------------------------

-------------------------------1080593450
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DUTF-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><A title=3Dhttp://www.evolutionarytechnologies.us/ href=3D"http:/=
/www.evolutionarytechnologies.us/"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>www.evolution=
arytechnologies.us</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; currently do=
wn loading &nbsp;is slow. Video's can be downloaded of&nbsp;unexplainable by=
 science&nbsp; electrical conversion and conversation &nbsp;premises &nbsp;a=
nd two separate neutrino gathering/converter devices.&nbsp; The single phase=
 220 V. AC to 3 Phase device totally changes the current 120 year old scient=
ific understanding of AC&nbsp; current.</FONT>=20
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The device utilizes the now wasted kinetic=20=
power loss energy already contained in the delivery process. The device conv=
erts those aspects into a new no power loss form of industrial 3 phase and c=
auses a 50% mech. performance increase to occur in electrical motors. There=20=
is also a more advanced 110 V to 3&nbsp;Phase premise. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The conversion process also draws free elec=
trons from the earth and feeds that aspect&nbsp;back to the grid to help com=
pensate for usage.&nbsp; As far as i know &nbsp;Present converters in the ma=
rket place cannot compete.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;The other two devices are different n=
eutrino gathering/converters. That belong to contacts. &nbsp;One is starting=
 a vehicle with the battery disconnected. The other will produce 18 watts. L=
arger versions of that device exist.&nbsp; below is A review by a Ph.D EE </=
FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 3/7/2004 1:25:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, <A title=
=3Dmailto:dr_jaynes hotmail.com href=3D"mailto:dr_deleted@hotmail.com">dr_de=
leted hotmail.com</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>I have spent many hours discussing the details=
 of these technologies with Jack Carey, and he seems completely sincere in h=
is claims.&nbsp; Some have criticized Jack as being non-technical.&nbsp; It=20=
is unfortunate that some individuals criticize the works of others, without=20=
taking the time to investigate further than the ends of their own noses.&nbs=
p;</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>My impression of Jack, is that, although more busine=
ss oriented than technical, his technical information does seem to come from=
 serious researchers, which he has worked with.&nbsp; Furthermore Jack is a=20=
promoter, and understandable not interested in giving away vital information=
, to this technology.<BR><BR>The videos are nothing short of amazing.&nbsp;=20=
Anyone who actually works with high power electrical equipment would immedia=
tely know that it is impossible to run 10 hp worth of motors, a large drill=20=
press, as well as lighting up an <BR>arc welder, and start welding things, a=
nd all simultaneously running off a single 3 hp phase converter.&nbsp; Yet,=20=
this is exactly what is shown in the video.&nbsp; Other footage on the video=
 shows a researcher from =E2=80=98Infinite Energy Magazine=E2=80=99 using a=20=
3 phase power meter to measure the electrical power going to a 5 hp air comp=
ressor.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp; The investigator is completely amazed to see=20=
400W driving a 5 hp air compressor, as well he should be!&nbsp; Five hp is e=
quivalent to several thousand watts of electrical power.&nbsp; Even if the m=
otor is not running under full load, 400W should not be able to turn the mot=
or, but it does.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;'''' REPLY&nbsp; CLAIRIFICATION In the current=
 world. &nbsp;The&nbsp;commerical large two stage compressor shown operation=
al in the video calls for a 5 Hp.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But that has been replace=
d with a 3 Hp. motor. Because a 3 is all that is needed because of the claim=
ed new form of evolutionary cost effective no power loss 3 phase electricity=
 the converter is creating from single phase. Contact a Manuf. of Air Com. A=
 5 Hp motor is used for a reason. The motor has to be of a certain size in o=
rder to operate the Com. head. &nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp; That occurence translates into currently unim=
aginal and unexplainable with known knowledge &nbsp;EFFICIENCY.&nbsp; Simple=
 common sense says &nbsp;If a&nbsp;3 performs the same as&nbsp;a 5. Then les=
s power is&nbsp;required.&nbsp;In this case apparently far less. Now factor=20=
in a claimed feed back to grid power factor occurrence the device creates. T=
hat seperate power factor is derived from free electrons that are provided b=
y the earth.&nbsp;&nbsp; Naturally at this point I do not expect anyone to b=
elieve that.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;Lets explore the business side. &nbsp;Now fact=
or in just industrial electrical usage on a planetary scale. According to th=
e DOE 64% of the electricity comsumed in the US is being consumed by electri=
c motors. Now factor in projected electrical usage will double in one genera=
tion. Are we looking at spending say 400 billion this century to upgrade the=
 grid and built more generating plants?&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp=
;Would that be necessary if we could drastically reduce usage as the premise=
 indicates?&nbsp;To be able to see a possibility&nbsp;of that magnitude requ=
ires serious vision. The question is who can think at that level. The answer=
 is very few.&nbsp; Believe me I have searched for ones that can.</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;DISCLAIMER&nbsp; He is only&nbsp;rendering an=20=
an objective evaluation. Derived from viewing video's and phone discussions=20=
&nbsp;He is not indorsing the claims. Nor is he supporting me or are we asso=
ciated in any way. &nbsp;&nbsp;I will say &nbsp;His written grammar does exc=
ede mine. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Possible new understandings are not easy to establis=
h. Especially when there is a 120 years of science that totally contradicts=20=
the purposed&nbsp;claims. Main stream Science thinks they know all there is=20=
about the dominate aspect of our civilization AC Current. If the claims are=20=
factual they are in for a very rude awaking. I would like to thank the Eng.=20=
for&nbsp;the time and effort he dedicated in order to provide&nbsp;the unbia=
sed non judgmental evaluation.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Jack tells me that the phase converter produc=
es a new form of electricity, which causes the motor to run cool, and up to=20=
50% more efficiently than if run on normal electricity.&nbsp; He says there=20=
are two components of normal electricity, a =E2=80=98work factor=E2=80=99 co=
mponent and a non-useful =E2=80=98heat factor=E2=80=99 component.&nbsp; The=20=
phase converter converts the normally unused (and counter productive) =E2=
=80=98heat factor=E2=80=99 in to a useful =E2=80=98work factor=E2=80=99, mak=
ing the 3 phase motors run up to 50% more efficiently.<BR><BR>If what Jack i=
s saying about the video footage is correct, this implies that new physical=20=
laws may have to be constructed to describe this new form of electricity.&nb=
sp; We should remember that when the physical world tells us <BR>something n=
ew and unexpected is going on, the only responsible action, as a researcher,=
 is to fully investigate the new phenomenon.&nbsp; The evidence presented in=
 these videos is definitely something worthy of further investigation.</FONT=
></DIV>---------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------</BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1080593450--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 13:07:29 2004
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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:13:30 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Life On Ice
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At 10:00 AM 3/29/4, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>Nasa said this rock was harder than the other rocks. How could it be ice
>and be harder?
>
>- Rick


The statemen that it is harder is based upon the assumption that it is a
rock.  If it is not a rock, but rather has other mechanism to chenge the
grinding properties, ie. melting/refreezing and organic matter disengaging
the diamond grit from the surface, then that determination can not be
trusted.

We saw similar assumptions and what appear to be bad interpretations with
regard to Opportunity, e.g. when it appeared the tool stalled due to the
positioning mechanism (a knerled ball) sinking into the "rock" and stalling
the grinder.  Never saw any correction to that announcement did we?  For
this reason it seems to me reasonable to speculate on things other than
rocks being ground on occasion.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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>Before transmission to Earth, the PanCam adjusts each image so that the
>maximum value in the image is 255, and so that the minimum value in the
>image is 0. Apparently, this improves their compression performance. These
>images have to be adjusted back upon arrival to Earth by using calibration
>data supplied in the transmission, which is unique to each image. This image
>processing has several repercussions for us:


Do you have any URL references regarding this?  Did you get this from NASA
directly?


>The problem is illustrated the best in the first two images on this page,
>(if it loads).
>
>http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars4.htm
>
>The ONLY difference between the two pictures is that the second one contains
>a small section showing a shiny part of the rover.


Maybe I've goofed up and got the wrong photos, but it looks like both
photos have the rover parts in them.  I played around with the photos and
it appears both do have a significant amount of blue in them.  Both have a
white reference area too.  It looks like brightness and contrast are
significantly different though, like the light photo had a much longer
exposure time.  It seems to me difficult to attribute all this to data
compression problems from the algorithm described.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 13:17:31 2004
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Horace Heffner writes, 

>  Once robots are in the picture (in an economy) the sky is not even the limit.
> Tasks like consuming planets to build a device, say a spherical energy
> collector and habitable surface around a star, are soon no longer out of
> the question.


Yes. BTW there is are a slew of interesting stories recently about NASAs real agenda being to ditch manned missions in favor of robotics ASAP (Hubble disownment being part of that ploy)... not really news, but it makes sense to me, so long as they concentrate on a Hubble robot first. As technology progresses flesh and blood astronauts seem more and more like a vanity kind of indulgence ... but then again, as a dedicated Neuromancer, William Gibson style... if I'm ever asked to be a guinea-pig for some kind of AI computer/human hybrid, I'll likely volunteer without blinking an eye... or was that a cursor?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 13:28:45 2004
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> >Before transmission to Earth, the PanCam adjusts each image so that the
> >maximum value in the image is 255, and so that the minimum value in the
> >image is 0. Apparently, this improves their compression performance.
These
> >images have to be adjusted back upon arrival to Earth by using
calibration
> >data supplied in the transmission, which is unique to each image. This
image
> >processing has several repercussions for us:
>
>
> Do you have any URL references regarding this?  Did you get this from NASA
> directly?

Yes, I'll try to send them tonight. The technical specifications of the
PanCam also mention the adjustment. I may not have all the references I
found, but I think I can find the relevant ones. If there is an archive of
this mailing list, they should be in there, too, from around the first week
of March.

> >The problem is illustrated the best in the first two images on this page,
> >(if it loads).
> >
> >http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars4.htm
> >
> >The ONLY difference between the two pictures is that the second one
contains
> >a small section showing a shiny part of the rover.
>
>
> Maybe I've goofed up and got the wrong photos, but it looks like both
> photos have the rover parts in them.  I played around with the photos and
> it appears both do have a significant amount of blue in them.  Both have a
> white reference area too.  It looks like brightness and contrast are
> significantly different though, like the light photo had a much longer
> exposure time.  It seems to me difficult to attribute all this to data
> compression problems from the algorithm described.

I'm confused. If you look at the first two images I've put together on this
page, you'll see a bright object at the bottom of the second image, that's
part of the Rover. This object is so bright that it's preventing any
adjustment to the blue and green images, and is allowing the image to come
out fairly well color-balanced, although it's a bit dark. The first image is
so out of balance that it has very little red. The PanCam is adjusted to
provide well-balanced exposure times for good color in white light. Hence,
we get good color when we find pictures with shiny objects in them.

Compare the first two pictures on this page. They are the same picture,
taken just 20 minutes apart. Notice the shiny object at the bottom of the
second image.

http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars4.htm

Craig

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 13:49:43 2004
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I can't find too much from here at the office, but this is essentially it.
There are numerous discussions about this on the web. In one discussion, the
group found a NASA specialist who said that the adjustment data would not be
available for several months. I also found something, somewhere, which
offered an explanation for this algorithm. It apparently improves their
compression performance. However, this is all I can find at the moment.

Here's the key:

"(4) rudimentary automatic exposure control capability to maximize the SNR
of downlinked data while preventing data saturation."

This is from the Cornell site:

http://athena.cornell.edu/pdf/tb_pancam.pdf

"Pancam will be commanded by and will return digital data directly to the
rover computer.
The computer provides the capability to perform a limited set of image
processing tasks
on Pancam data prior to transmission. These tasks include (1) bias and dark
current
subtraction, (2) electronic shutter effect correction, (3) bad pixel
replacement, (4)
rudimentary automatic exposure control capability to maximize the SNR of
downlinked
data while preventing data saturation, (5) image subsampling and subframing,
and (6)
image compression using a JPL-developed wavelet compression algorithm called
ICER. "

Here's a description by another amateur, who also found the problem.

http://www.atsnn.com/story/30048.html

Good Luck!

Craig Haynie (Houston)

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In a message dated 3/29/2004 10:24:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:

> We have no other choice but to consider an extra-dimensional path and the 
> implications of Dirac's sea. 

No,  How about the one dimensional lowering of the Coulombic potential wall?

Frank Znidarisic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/29/2004 10:24:=
05 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
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consider an extra-dimensional path and the implications of Dirac's sea. </BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
No,&nbsp; How about the one dimensional lowering of the Coulombic potential=20=
wall?<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarisic</FONT></HTML>

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From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>


> At 10:00 AM 3/29/4, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> >Nasa said this rock was harder than the other rocks. How could it be ice
> >and be harder?
> >
> >- Rick
> 

The blue layer is not ice, it appears, did not evaporated and very opaque.
It also transformed to fine powder,may the ice crystal structure prevent
such a fine powdering.

I had noticed another layer top on the blue layer appeared transparent
after brushing but before grinding. Grinding may removed this transparent
layer which was really had to detect. Anyway grinding also exposed the
native rock. And this may was hard to grinding.  Rock appears be dressed
by many layers, possibly by atmospheric processes. This suggest these
layers contain ice and protected from sublimation by the upper lichen/dust
layer. The blue material is a mystery. It could be  a frozen chemical solution
which not evaporate quickly ( after being exposed). A repeated water
condensation/evaporation cycles my cause strong concentration of a
chemical, which may be available in the environment in very low concentration.
This "natural selection" may resulted to a non sublimating "frozen solution". 
Maybe this solution could be in  gel form in the elevated temperatures.

Grinding process appears to "detach" this layer partially from the native rock
without leaving residues. This suggest this layer is independent from rock
formation and behaved as a frozen liquid.

One shoud examine the cross section of upper layer, whether they contain
same blue things inside. Unfortunetly microscopic imager does not have color
filters.

> 
> The statemen that it is harder is based upon the assumption that it is a
> rock.  If it is not a rock, but rather has other mechanism to chenge the
> grinding properties, ie. melting/refreezing and organic matter disengaging
> the diamond grit from the surface, then that determination can not be
> trusted.

> 
> We saw similar assumptions and what appear to be bad interpretations with
> regard to Opportunity, e.g. when it appeared the tool stalled due to the
> positioning mechanism (a knerled ball) sinking into the "rock" and stalling
> the grinder.  Never saw any correction to that announcement did we?  For
> this reason it seems to me reasonable to speculate on things other than
> rocks being ground on occasion.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

Regards, hamdi ucar

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"Only a madman..." 

An effective ABM system would supposedly render the doomsday scenario at the end of the move "Dr. Strangelove" (MAD) less effective as a deterrent, thus making nuclear war more likely. It seemed like the US was trying to back away from the MAD philosophy in recent decades, and I don't understand why the Russians seem to dislike that trend. It can't be for a lack of madmen to worry about. Maybe the trend was itself just a sham, like Parksie says. Are they just trying to improve and reinforce the "A" in Mutual Assured Destruction?

Come to think of it, a stealthy superfast scramjet would make a heck of an alternative to big bulky expensive ICBMs. It's just a contoured soup can with a liquid hydrogen squirter - how hard can that be?  ;)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/03/28/hypersonic.jet.flight/index.html

- R.

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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>An effective ABM system would supposedly render the doomsday scenario at the end of the move "Dr. Strangelove" (MAD) less effective as a deterrent, thus making nuclear war more likely.
>

Unless such a system had been properly demonstrated to be 100% 
effective.  If so, I doubt the technology is well known to us. ;-)

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At 7:22 AM 3/29/4, Jones Beene wrote:

>How can that be? Where is the exit path in a vortex implosion?

I suggest that an energy exit path capable of balancing momentum, spin, and
energy is neutrino pair creation.  Such an unusual exit path may be
provided by the effect of a multi-body lepton-hardron waveform collapse,
which is an unlikely event outside a lattice.  The residuals might be
carried away by low energy uv photons.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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An analysis of the different types:

 >http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=896&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0<

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Testing...

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=896&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

>http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=896&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0<

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In reply to  FZNIDARSIC aol.com's message of Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:28:52 -0500 (EST):
Hi Frank,
[snip]

>In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:46:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:
>
>> Yesterday I posted a theoretical mechanism which would result in energetic 
>> alphas (and perhaps energetic electrons) rather than gamma rays. 
>> 
>
>The process must conserve momentum and energy.  The difference between the 
>mass energy of the reactants and the products is the excess Q of the reaction.  
>This extra energy must be dissipated.  The dissipation process must conserve 
>both momentum and energy.  If two daughter nucleons are produced the kinetic 
>energy is carried away by the daughter nucleons.  The momentum is balanced by 
>the angle in which the daughter nucleons shoot away.  If a single daughter 
>nucleon is produced like helium four, it is quite impossible for the reaction to 
>conserve both momentum and energy.  The result is the excess Q is carried away 
>by an energetic photon.

You obviously haven't read the previous post I referred to. The result of the reaction is two helium nuclei, which go in opposite directions, thus conserving both energy and momentum, with some of each possibly shared by a couple of electrons.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
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In reply to  FZNIDARSIC aol.com's message of Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:32:06 -0500 (EST):
Hi Frank,
[snip]

>In a message dated 3/28/2004 11:46:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:
>
>> a strong indication BTW that it depends upon De Broglie wave coupling), 
>
>I thought of this also.  It does not fit with the facts.  The debrogle 
>wavelength is longer with colder system.  The positive temperature coefficient of 
>cold fusion does not bode well for the deBrogle path.

Actually I agree, at least at first glance. You may recall that a couple of years ago I suggested the certain lattice types might be more effective,  (specifically lattices in which a given atom only has two nearest neighbours).
My thought at the time was that perhaps as the temperature approached the temperature of a phase transition in the material a condensation of phonons would take place, specifically that only the highest energy (and frequency) phonons would exist in the lattice (with a wavelength equal to the nearest neighbour distance). However I was disavowed of this notion by a prof. from Cornell, though I have never quite let it go. ;)

OTOH, there may be more than one CF mechanism, and perhaps not all improve with temperature. E.g. mechanisms based upon hydrino production likely would improve with temp. 


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

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to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:21:47 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>At 3:03 PM 3/29/4, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>The solar system oscillates up and own above the plane of the ecliptic of
>>the galaxy. The greatest matter density in the galaxy occurs in the plane
>>of the ecliptic, hence this plane is a likely incarnation of Horace's
>>"Nemesis cloud".
>
>
>The "Nemesis cloud" concept is definitely not mine.  Not sure whose it is.

That's ok, I just meant to refer to the same concept you were referring to.
Just establishing a frame of reference.

>However I added a few obvious notions to the concept that may be but
>probably are not original, like the fact the Nemesis star need not ever
>return for the process to continue on unabated in the natural period of Ort
>cloud, or more likely objects in a cloud well beyond the Ort cloud.
>
>
>>AFAIK we are due to pass through the centre of the plane of the ecliptic
>>again on 21 Dec. 2012, so as we approach that date, one might well expect
>>the frequency of close approaches to increase.
>>
>>Does anyone know the frequency of the oscillation?
>
>
>The above may be a misnomer.  The ecliptic is the plane of the earth's
>orbit around the sun, which therefore also happens to be the apparent path
>of the sun around the earth against the background of the celestial sphere.
>It is called the ecliptic because it is the plane in which eclipses occur.
>The earth is always in the ecliptic.

I believe that on 21 Dec. 2012 the sun will lie on a straight line with the Earth and the centre of the galaxy. I assumed that the plane of the solar system was parallel with that of the galaxy. However upon checking a star chart program, I now see that it isn't so, so it seems I was wrong about passing through the plane of the galaxy.
Here is the site that got me started. :(


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:39:41 -0900:
Hi,
[snip]

>The main problem with this theory is the lack of extinctions in the
>Pre-Cambian period.  That fact leads me to believe a one time perterbation

I suspect there was much if any life in the Pre-Cambrian to become extinct.

>about 600 million years ago must have started the process.  It may be
>possible we got gravitationally entangled with a partner Nemesis rock or
>cloud that orbits at the same galactic radius but always occupies
>approximately the opposing galactic latitude.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

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to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

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At 12:28 PM 3/29/4, SnowDog wrote:

>I'm confused. If you look at the first two images I've put together on this
>page, you'll see a bright object at the bottom of the second image, that's
>part of the Rover. This object is so bright that it's preventing any
>adjustment to the blue and green images, and is allowing the image to come
>out fairly well color-balanced, although it's a bit dark. The first image is
>so out of balance that it has very little red. The PanCam is adjusted to
>provide well-balanced exposure times for good color in white light. Hence,
>we get good color when we find pictures with shiny objects in them.
>
>Compare the first two pictures on this page. They are the same picture,
>taken just 20 minutes apart. Notice the shiny object at the bottom of the
>second image.
>
>http://216.169.108.12/golddirectory/mars/mars4.htm
>
>Craig


The top photo has the rover's white JPL text in it, so should have not been
a problem, at least not a problem due to the digital image processing.  The
image processing should be OK provided there is even a spec of white.  It
appears to me that the top photo was overexposed.  The bottom photo was not
overexposed, due to both the white JPL sign and mostly the large area of
brushed metal.

Note that when the dark one is lightened or the light one darkened there is
lots of blue in both.

None of this helps with the original problem though, which is determining
the color of the ice/rock.  It simply looks like there is a lot of blue in
there, in part due to the even gradation of colors in the photos with the
two high end filters.  Could be wrong too, so I agree the only way to be
sure is to wait for properly corrected color.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Mar 29 23:43:31 2004
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At 12:49 PM 3/29/4, SnowDog wrote:
>I can't find too much from here at the office, but this is essentially it.
>There are numerous discussions about this on the web. In one discussion, the
>group found a NASA specialist who said that the adjustment data would not be
>available for several months. I also found something, somewhere, which
>offered an explanation for this algorithm. It apparently improves their
>compression performance. However, this is all I can find at the moment.
>
>Here's the key:
>
>"(4) rudimentary automatic exposure control capability to maximize the SNR
>of downlinked data while preventing data saturation."

Interesting.  The term "exposure control" means to me controlling aperture
or exposure time, physically.  This was discussed within the framework of
digital image processing, but it appears to me this actually means there is
a light integrator based exposure time control.  Ths must be what
"rudimentary exposure control" meant in the discussion.  This would account
for the glare in some overexposures, which is due to small bright spots, as
opposed to large bright areas.


[snip bunch of good stuff]

Thanks much for taking the time to post (and repost) this stuff.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 30 00:19:08 2004
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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>
>  >Perhaps Thomas was referring to the angle with relation to the Earth's
>>orbit around the Sun? If it approached in the plane of the ecliptic, in a
>>retrograde orbit, then you can add the velocity of the Earth (~30 km/sec)
>>to that of the meteor, which makes for a much bigger splash.
>
>
>Thomas would have to answer the question in regard to his intended meaning.
>However, the term "angle of incidence" that I used prior to his question I
>think clearly meant angle of incidence with respect to the earth's surface,
>which is completely independent of the mutual angle of the intersecting
>orbits.
>
>Yes, a retrograde orbit would provide somewhat larger maximum possible
>energy than a 90 degree mutual angle, but such an event is very unlikely
>unless the source of the impacting body is a Nemesis cloud.  Retrograde
>orbit objects with orbits in the ecliptic are fairly rare.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

I was just wondering if the asteroid coming in at an angle would 
discipate some of the energy in the air. What it does is spread the 
energy over a larger area. with sufficient energy to char everything 
under it. I had assumed that most of the energy release would be on 
impact, but a significant amount of the energy would be released by 
the friction with the atmosphere. It amazes me that a glowing chunk 
of rock would liberate enough energy to ignite material at a distance 
of miles.

This discussion reminds me of one that Hugh Hewitt was having monday 
evening with a physicist who had called the show. Hewitt questioned 
the caller about the maximium rate of speed that an astriod could 
have, he said 25,000 mph. The question had to do with John Kerey's 
descent, and which was falling faster, a lead slug or an astroid

I want to thank all of you for a most interesting discussion.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 30 01:33:31 2004
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Ditto,

Pre-Cambian life-forms were not conducive to fossilization,
 we wouldn't necessarily know what to look for.

On the other hand, I wonder if someone has done a iridium-specific
 examination of Pre-Cambian lithology.
If I find anything, I'll let you know, but I presume
 there is no such data - it would be too uneconomic I think.

I will give it a look-see, anyway.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 2004 March 30 13:20
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
> 
> 
> In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:39:41 -0900:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> 
> >The main problem with this theory is the lack of extinctions in the
> >Pre-Cambian period.  That fact leads me to believe a one time 
> perterbation
> 
> I suspect there was much if any life in the Pre-Cambrian to 
> become extinct.
> 
> >about 600 million years ago must have started the process.  It may be
> >possible we got gravitationally entangled with a partner Nemesis rock or
> >cloud that orbits at the same galactic radius but always occupies
> >approximately the opposing galactic latitude.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Horace Heffner          
> >
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
> to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 30 03:52:06 2004
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> Note that when the dark one is lightened or the light one darkened there
is
> lots of blue in both.

I guess we just disagree. I did increase the brightness and the contrast in
the second image, and put it here, as the third image.

http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm

To me, it looks like a good color photograph with no blue.

> None of this helps with the original problem though, which is determining
> the color of the ice/rock.  It simply looks like there is a lot of blue in
> there, in part due to the even gradation of colors in the photos with the
> two high end filters.  Could be wrong too, so I agree the only way to be
> sure is to wait for properly corrected color.

You make a good point here. If there are SINGLE step gradations in the
brightness of the image, then wouldn't that indicate that the image hasn't
been adjusted very much, since a large adjustment should cause the numerical
values to skip? If the highest value in an image is 64, and this is forced
to 255, then the next value at 63 would be stepped up to 252. I think there
might be something to this idea, but remember that the PanCam uses a 12-bit
pixel, not an 8-bit pixel, and this would make such a type of analysis
harder. Otherwise, it might be possible to analyze the skip values in an
image to determine the adjustment applied. I greatly appreciate the fact
that NASA is streaming these images straight to the website, but this one
value along with each image, would solve all of our color problems, (as long
as we're balancing for white light).

The only way I know to find good color in a Mars image is to compare the sky
color, if the image has a piece of the sky in it. The color wheel has two
mirrors on it which reflect the sky. I can average each color-pixel value
from the color wheel and determine the color of the sky to a high degree of
accuracy. The last picture on this page displays an image of Bonneville
Crater adjusted in this way.

http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm

Craig

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 30 04:01:44 2004
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> You make a good point here. If there are SINGLE step gradations in the
> brightness of the image, then wouldn't that indicate that the image hasn't
> been adjusted very much, since a large adjustment should cause the
numerical
> values to skip? If the highest value in an image is 64, and this is forced
> to 255, then the next value at 63 would be stepped up to 252. I think
there
> might be something to this idea, but remember that the PanCam uses a
12-bit
> pixel, not an 8-bit pixel, and this would make such a type of analysis
> harder. Otherwise, it might be possible to analyze the skip values in an
> image to determine the adjustment applied. I greatly appreciate the fact
> that NASA is streaming these images straight to the website, but this one
> value along with each image, would solve all of our color problems, (as
long
> as we're balancing for white light).

I withdraw this idea. If it is exposure control that the PanCam employs to
saturate these images, then there will be no skips in the gradations.

Craig

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 30 07:13:12 2004
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Subject: Re: Shades of Strangelove
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Rick Monteverde writes,

> "Only a madman..." 
 
> "An effective ABM system would supposedly render the doomsday scenario at the end of the move "Dr. Strangelove" (MAD) less effective as a deterrent, thus making nuclear war more likely. "

Well, at the risk of sounding picky... if we assume that in the movie, following Major Kong's infamous ride, that the Doomsday machine operated and achieved its intended purpose, then there is really nothing that could possibly diminish that kind of deterrent, is there? 

Otherwise one would have to assume that the USA, because it developed a foolproof ABM, would nevertheless stage a sneak preemptive attack and risk the total demise of civilization, based on the off-chance that the Doomsday machine would malfunction (presumably it is located in the heart of Russia, and you can never really be sure that there is only one of them)... 

However, you did preface the post with "Only a madman..." and maybe Dr. Rumsfeld's oops... Strangelove's... uncontrollable, homicidal hand reaches even beyond the feeble restraint of those higher-up... This might be of interest:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2082846/

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 30 07:23:51 2004
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Asteroid flyby tonight
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At 2:20 AM 3/30/4, thomas malloy wrote:

>I was just wondering if the asteroid coming in at an angle would
>discipate some of the energy in the air. What it does is spread the
>energy over a larger area. with sufficient energy to char everything
>under it. I had assumed that most of the energy release would be on
>impact, but a significant amount of the energy would be released by
>the friction with the atmosphere. It amazes me that a glowing chunk
>of rock would liberate enough energy to ignite material at a distance
>of miles.

Tunguska apparently dissipated all its energy in air, but it was probably
made of ice and not rock, and would have had to fragment into very small
pieces to dump 10 megatons TNT energy into the air.  Comets are thought to
be loosly held together.  It would be such loosly aggregated comets, made
of sand and dust and ice, that would dump a lot of energy in the air vs the
ground.


>
>This discussion reminds me of one that Hugh Hewitt was having monday
>evening with a physicist who had called the show. Hewitt questioned
>the caller about the maximium rate of speed that an astriod could
>have, he said 25,000 mph. The question had to do with John Kerey's
>descent, and which was falling faster, a lead slug or an astroid


The max is actually a LOT faster than 25,000 mph, which is rooughly earth's
escape velocity.  A comet at our radius from the sun could be carrying
close to escape velocity from the sun at our radius, Ve = sqr(2*G*m/r) =
sqr(2*G*(1.979E30 kg)/(93E6 mi)) = 42 km/s.  If it comes in on a retrograde
orbit just right we add the earth's solar orbit velocity, 2*Pi*(93E6 Mi)/yr
= 29.8 km/s, plus earth's escape velocity or about 11.18 km/s, for a total
of 82.3 km/s, or 184,000 mph.  A body coming in from outside the solar
system would have no such limit to its speed.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>

Frank,

> How about the one dimensional lowering of the Coulombic potential wall?

You might be interested to know that in a number of "extra-dimensional theories", including some "string" theories - anything above three dimensions begins to immediately "enfold" back into the first dimension. 

An effective visual analogy would be the topographical surface of the torus - the type of torus whose center hole has shrunk to 1-space, that is to say, the minor-diameter equals the major radius. In this analogy, all three dimensions emerge from that one-space and continue to expand through 3-space untill they reach the farthest tangent away from the major focus (which is the last fractal of 3-space), then everything on the "return" path, whether it be labeled as 4-space or 10 "enfolded" dimensions - or whatever, they all exist on the return path and enfold back into the one-space starting point.

Consequently, if you hear of a string theory (one of the best is "M-theory") with 10 dimensions,  then in one understanding of this, all the "extra" dimensions can be linguistically said to be encompassed as "4-space" and all will emerge back through 1-space. In our everyday world, this circuit may even happen sequentially in plank-time but we are unaware as our senses only take in 2 and 3-space.

I'm sure that this clarification is about as "clear as mud" but that is the best I can do after roughly 40 years of contemplation, or was that omphaloskepsis ....  ;-)

Jones

Matter of fact, I wonder if this visual type of toroid topology was ever the inspiration for the vernacular : "contemplating one's navel" ? Probably depends on the size of the surrounding "tire" so-to-speak...

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Biomass Charcoal from about any source can be exothermally/cleanly produced by the
megaton. Pelletizing  it into "fuel cartridges" that can be stoker-fed into the
combustion side of  Sterling Engines on vehicles could appreciably lower the buildup
of atmospheric CO2.

Regards,

Frederick


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Frederick Sparber writes:

 > Biomass Charcoal from about any source can be exothermally/cleanly 
produced by the
 > megaton.

BUT, as Pimentel & Pimentel showed, the entire mass of annual new growth 
biomass in North America would not be enough to satisfy our energy 
requirements. We would have to include old-growth biomass. After some 
decades we would convert the continent into a desert. This is what is 
happening in many parts of the Third World, particularly in Haiti. It is 
happening in slow motion in North America because our method of growing 
corn is destroys the land and water table.

Millions of tons of our corn crop is converted to ethanol, in a process 
that causes massive, uncontrolled pollution and that uses up roughly 70 
percent more energy from conventional fuel than it creates. To a man from 
Mars I suppose this would look like society-wide lunacy and the biggest 
waste of materials and human labor since the pyramid builders of ancient 
Egypt. That foolish Martian! He wouldn't "get" our "pork barrel" politics.

- Jed


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Carbon-Neutral, Charcoal-Fired Sterling Engines

Not ALL of the energy needs, Jed.  But 2 Billion Bushels of the Genetically Modified
corn produced last year would be a good start.

http://www.cornburner.com/


" "I farm for a living and I know how to grow corn,
but I can't seem to figure how to grow propane!!" "
... John Jensen, South Dakota

Corn makes a good charcoal pellet binder too.  :-)

Frederick


> Frederick Sparber writes:
>
>  > Biomass Charcoal from about any source can be exothermally/cleanly
> produced by the
>  > megaton.
>
> BUT, as Pimentel & Pimentel showed, the entire mass of annual new growth
> biomass in North America would not be enough to satisfy our energy
> requirements. We would have to include old-growth biomass. After some
> decades we would convert the continent into a desert. This is what is
> happening in many parts of the Third World, particularly in Haiti. It is
> happening in slow motion in North America because our method of growing
> corn is destroys the land and water table.
>
> Millions of tons of our corn crop is converted to ethanol, in a process
> that causes massive, uncontrolled pollution and that uses up roughly 70
> percent more energy from conventional fuel than it creates. To a man from
> Mars I suppose this would look like society-wide lunacy and the biggest
> waste of materials and human labor since the pyramid builders of ancient
> Egypt. That foolish Martian! He wouldn't "get" our "pork barrel" politics.
>
> - Jed
>
>


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In a message dated 3/30/2004 11:03:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:

> You might be interested to know that in a number of "extra-dimensional 
> theories", including some "string" theories - anything above three dimensions 
> begins to immediately "enfold" back into the first dimension. 
> 

These extra dimensions open at very high energy.  The energy levels of cold 
fusion are less than one eV.  This requires a rather ordinary classical 
approach.

Going to work on long shifts night turn tonight.  Will probable not be doing 
much else. 

Frank Z

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/30/2004 11:03:=
19 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">You might be interested to know=
 that in a number of "extra-dimensional theories", including some "string" t=
heories - anything above three dimensions begins to immediately "enfold" bac=
k into the first dimension. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
These extra dimensions open at very high energy.&nbsp; The energy levels of=20=
cold fusion are less than one eV.&nbsp; This requires a rather ordinary clas=
sical approach.<BR>
<BR>
Going to work on long shifts night turn tonight.&nbsp; Will probable not be=20=
doing much else. <BR>
<BR>
Frank Z</FONT></HTML>

--part1_1d7.1d634436.2d9b1409_boundary--

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From: "explorecraft" <pariah explorecraft.com>
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Subject: RE: Carbon-Neutral, Charcoal-Fired Sterling Engines
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell mindspring.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2004 March 31 00:47
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Carbon-Neutral, Charcoal-Fired Sterling Engines
>

>...X...<

>
> percent more energy from conventional fuel than it creates. To a man from
> Mars I suppose this would look like society-wide lunacy and the biggest
> waste of materials and human labor since the pyramid builders of ancient
> Egypt. That foolish Martian! He wouldn't "get" our "pork barrel" politics.
>
> - Jed

yeah but look what they did to Mars !

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At 5:52 AM 3/30/4, SnowDog wrote:
>> Note that when the dark one is lightened or the light one darkened there
>is
>> lots of blue in both.
>
>I guess we just disagree. I did increase the brightness and the contrast in
>the second image, and put it here, as the third image.
>
>http://www.golddirectory.com/mars/mars.htm
>
>To me, it looks like a good color photograph with no blue.

At 6:01 AM 3/30/4, SnowDog wrote:
>> You make a good point here. If there are SINGLE step gradations in the
>> brightness of the image, then wouldn't that indicate that the image hasn't
>> been adjusted very much, since a large adjustment should cause the
>numerical
>> values to skip? If the highest value in an image is 64, and this is forced
>> to 255, then the next value at 63 would be stepped up to 252. I think
>there
>> might be something to this idea, but remember that the PanCam uses a
>12-bit
>> pixel, not an 8-bit pixel, and this would make such a type of analysis
>> harder. Otherwise, it might be possible to analyze the skip values in an
>> image to determine the adjustment applied. I greatly appreciate the fact
>> that NASA is streaming these images straight to the website, but this one
>> value along with each image, would solve all of our color problems, (as
>long
>> as we're balancing for white light).
>
>I withdraw this idea. If it is exposure control that the PanCam employs to
>saturate these images, then there will be no skips in the gradations.
>
>Craig


Yes, I too felt the above was correct until I got the impression that there
is true physical exposure control, which throws the certainlty of anything
out, at least theoretically.   There are no guarantees one way or another
without calibration data.  I think we have a high degree of agreement on
this.

However, I still feel like the Mazatzal images using filters are not all
that far different in many places compared to the non-filtered navcam and
microscopic images.  Further, filters simply aren't perfect.  I still can't
help but feel like there is a lot of blue in the images.

To check things out I ran a histogram against your dark image of soil that
includes a metallic portion of Spirit.  Here is a simple summary of the
results (max possible intensity value is 255):

.......Mean........Std Dev.....Median
Red    53.5        36.6        49.0
Green  44.6        36.4        38.0
Blue   39.5        36.6        31.0


If you look at the histogram summary data you can see that the
distributions are strikingly similar in shape and magnitude, but with green
and blue shifted a bit to the left (lower occurance).  The histogram shows,
by color, the frequency of a given intensity.  You can see that the 3 basic
colors are not all that different in intensity.

I realize here that photo *appearances* are quite different from the
similarity indicated in the numbers.  However, my point is that, assuming
the dark photo is even just roughly correct, there is a lot of blue in the
background, so even though there may be real exposure control, there is in
this case a severe limit to how dramatically it can affect the results for
blue, especially bright blue spots.  If Mazatzal is even roughly similar,
then areas which are black in the warm filters and white in the cool
filters are likely in reality to be somewhat blue.


There are no guarantees, and the ice notion is certainly only a
speculation, but this is just a rough assessment, how things feel at the
moment.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: hidden Mazatzal pieces
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Nice pieced together 2 meg image of grind showing bubbles etc.:

<http://tinyurl.com/2bblk>

NASA ground way beyond this point, so it will be interesting to see the
next photos.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:19:06 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Jones -

At 7:11 AM -0800 3/30/04, Jones Beene wrote:
>presumably it is located in the heart of Russia, and you can never really be sure that there is only one of them

The 'doomsday machine' actually does exist in reality, it's not just an imaginary device in a movie: it is the mutual assured destruction that would occur as policy if somebody launches. "Only a madman" would launch. We now have madmen who would probably launch if they had 'em. One tried to get them but we and the UN stopped him. And there are others still to deal with - MAD seems obsolete. So where does this put us in terms of someone developing a good ABM system, or something that can reliably defeat that defense? Maybe Tesla was right in 1919. Can the 'ultimate defense' really win the peace? I hope so, because the alternative looks increasingly grim.

- R.

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From: Josh8103579212 aol.com
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-------------------------------1080693024
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 3/30/2004 12:23:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
-----hu fastmail.fm writes:
Hello,

I am located in Hong Kong. My phone is +852 9458-deleted. I am very 
interested in your product, and wish to market it in China. Please provide as much info 
as you can.

Regards,
James deleted
Hong Kong / China
    Reply   He has seen the video's because he sent the mail through the web 
site. Visionary business types. Are my type of people. Not small minded types 
that cannot see past their nose and grasp opportunity. When i first seen the 
conversion Tech. 4 years ago  I did not care how it functioned. I only cared if 
it did.  And if the premise presented an opportunity. 

China I have came to know has a great deal of dirty electrical power that 
damages EQ. The Electrical phase conversion device  loves dirty power. And can 
eliminate the aspects that cause damage.  Just that ability of the converter is 
worth. Who knows?  Very few can begin to imagine at that level. 

-------------------------------1080693024
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>In a message dated 3/30/2004 12:23:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, <A titl=
e=3Dmailto:-----hu fastmail.fm href=3D"mailto:-----hu@fastmail.fm">-----hu@f=
astmail.fm</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am located in Hong Kong. My phone is +852=
 9458-deleted. I am very interested in your product, and wish to market it i=
n China. Please provide as much info as you can.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>James deleted</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hong Kong / China</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reply&nbsp;&nbsp; He has seen the video's because he=
 sent the mail through the web site. Visionary business types. Are my type o=
f people. Not small minded types that cannot see past their nose and grasp&n=
bsp;opportunity. When i first seen the conversion Tech. 4 years ago&nbsp; I=20=
did not care how it functioned. I only cared if it did.&nbsp; And if the pre=
mise presented an opportunity.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>China I have came to know has a great deal of dirty electrical power th=
at damages EQ. The Electrical phase conversion&nbsp;device &nbsp;loves dirty=
 power. And can eliminate the aspects that cause damage.&nbsp; Just that abi=
lity of the converter is worth. Who knows?&nbsp; Very few can begin to imagi=
ne at that level. </DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1080693024--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 30 17:01:46 2004
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In reply to  Rick Monteverde's message of Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:19:06 -1000:
Hi,
[snip]

>The 'doomsday machine' actually does exist in reality, it's not just an imaginary device in a movie: it is the mutual assured destruction that would occur as policy if somebody launches. "Only a madman" would launch. We now have madmen who would probably launch if they had 'em.
[snip]
Actually I'm much more afraid of the madmen in the current administration that already have em.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

If "other people" can be denied their rights, then what's
to stop someone claiming that you belong among the "other people"?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Mar 30 17:29:35 2004
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Rick,
 
> The 'doomsday machine' actually does exist in reality, it's not just an imaginary device in a movie...

Yes, I understood where you were going with that... but whenever Dr. Strangelove is mentioned... well, it just induces a certain insane frivolity... juxtaposed against absolute fear and loathing. As a result, serious but outrageous alternative perspectives will often emerge about the mentality of the 'other side.' 

For instance, here is a twist to the post cold-war planners logic that you may never have considered. From the perspective of planners in war-rooms, our (mostly paranoid) military bureaucracy (part of the job description), have probably concocted all kinds of continuing semi-plausible but warped spy-vs-spy reasoning to justify their paranoia (and continued employment): so now as they must see the Russians as basically a third world country (only because the truth of their economic failure cannot be disguised any further), they promptly overlook that plight as being a good thing for our security, and instead reason that the relative poverty should not have given them any logical motivation to try to match us tit-for-tat in a high tech arms race that they obviously cannot win. They know that if a poor country was really desirous of the maximum deterrent for a ridiculously low cost, then a Doomsday machine like Strangelove's (real name: Murkewerkdichliebe, or "beloved fate" in German - to appreciate the humor you have to try to pronounce it)  is the only way to go. Save the billions and feed the babushkas. ERGO, since the Russians haven't gone the low-cost Doomsday route, they must be secretly planning something devious!  and they must be stopped! That kind of Nazi-bred technorationalism (originally both a satire on Werner Von Braun and Henry Kissinger) has not gone away in recent years, if anything it has gotten more fine-tuned. 

Jones

I still break into uncontrollable laughter thinking about when President Muffley, who bears a resemblance to you-know-who, tries to breakup a scuffle between General Turgidson and the Russian Ambassador, "Gentlemen, there is no fighting in the War Room!" ....










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Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:50:00 -1000
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Subject: Re: Shades of Strangelove
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Jones -

<snip>
> they must be secretly planning something devious!  and they must be stopped!
</snip>

I've probably misunderstood you again. Are you actually suggesting that it's "paranoid" or ridiculous to think that above? Of *course* they're actually planning Something Devious, and they must indeed be stopped or countered! They have thousands of brilliant people whose job it is to come up with Something Devious as well as counter the other guy's plans, and so do we. Especially when they just came out and publicly announced the successful test of a New Offensive Hypersonic Something Devious which counters our Defensive Previous Something Devious?

If somebody has an actual workable plan for derailing this insane mess, speak up please. Me and few billion other people would like to know about it. We need more than a rule against fighting in the War Room.  For instance, how about those phunny lights in the sky that make the "giants fade". Now THAT sounds like a good start! ;)

- R.

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Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:24:23 +0200
From: Michael Huffman <knuke sumosound.de>
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Ahoy Rick!

>If somebody has an actual workable plan for derailing this insane mess, speak up please. Me and few billion other people would like to know about it. We need more than a rule against fighting in the War Room.  For instance, how about those phunny lights in the sky that make the "giants fade". Now THAT sounds like a good start! ;)
>
>- R.

My long-standing, Ultimate Solution to the insanity that we have grown up in, and continue to be confronted with even in this age, is to develop some kind of bomb or beam or spray or something that, when deployed, brings a large group of people in a given targeted area to the immediate and uncontrollable state of a physical, sexual orgasm.  You can meditate on the effects and ramifications of such a "weapon".  This, in my opinion, is one of the few things worthy of Manhattan Project style funding levels, and I KNOW that it would work (in the weirdest of ways, of course).

Knuke - The Ultimate Devious Guy

I am still as serious as a [fill in the blank].


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 31 04:07:55 2004
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Wow.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/065/1M133955470EFF08AQP2936M2M1.JPG

There's some large dark structures on the upper left that actually look like retracted anenomes. Big matchsticks, worms, strings of spheres everywhere.

- R.

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>Wow.

>http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/065/1M133955470EFF08AQP2936M2M1.JPG

>There's some large dark structures on the upper left

 - er, make that lower left.

- R.

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Subject: Re: Shades of Strangelove
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During the cold war, the possibility that a deranged individual on either
side could initiate an unauthorized launch was carefully considered. The US
Minuteman lauch control rooms were manned by two men, physically separated,
the controls arranged so that cooperation was necessary to initate a launch,
and both armed so the other could be killed if going awry. The US safety
procedures were published in a journal, and in diplomatic contacts at
parties, etc. around the world, the word was passed to the Soviets to look
at that particular article. The US wanted the Soviets to a) be assured of
our restraint, and b) adopt similar procedures.

My understanding is that the physical separation used for Minuteman could
not work with the nuclear submarines; instead, a rigid, practiced discipline
maintained safety. People who are compulsive knob-twiddlers are not
tolerated on any submarine.

In MAD, M can stand for mutual and massive. Details overlooked in worrying
about a North Korean missile is that with inertial guidance, one has to know
what numbers to set into the guidance system, and for that you need to know
a lot about the exact shape of the earth and the exact location of the
target, unless you are using GPS. GPS was unheard of in the cold war. Now
the world relies on it, but I suspect that somewhere there is a button that
will turn off or scramble the signals on suspicion that it is used for
guidance of incoming missiles -- it can aslo be jammed.

The loss of a city is not the defeat of a nation, even if it were
Washington, and small countries don't have many bullets in their gun.

The agonizing over 9/11 has much to do with the shock of being bloodied and
entering the 'real world'. I think newscasts featuring the daily americans
killed and wounded in Iraq, and the 3000+ lost on 9/11, should also show the
annual dead and wounded from automobile accidents (30,000+ annually),
gunshots, and possibly abortions. Each daily report should show the daily
auto deaths and murders.

If one is dealing with national policy, some perspective is needed. The
measures now protested for Homeland Security would never have been tolerated
before 9/11. Short of a police state, we have no protection from backpack
bombs.

Mike Carrell


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Subject: Re: Shades of Strangelove
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Rick,
 
> Of *course* they're actually planning Something Devious, and they must indeed be stopped or countered! They have thousands of brilliant people whose job it is to come up with Something Devious as well as counter the other guy's plans, and so do we. Especially when they just came out and publicly announced the successful test of a New Offensive Hypersonic Something Devious which counters our Defensive Previous Something Devious?

I agree! (except for the "must be stopped" part, if that implies aggression).

But the point is - in advanced spy-vs-spy manuvering, you never let the other side know your real intent nor especailly, your real capabilities. Even if they had a New Offensive Hypersonic Something Devious, which I doubt because they would never announce anything 'real'... does that kind of thing pose much of an actual threat to the USA, coming from a country that can't even make decent toilet paper? The MOST devious thing the Russians could ever pull-off against us at this juncture, given that we have already wasted billions on the failed ABM, is to convince us (or our paramoid planners) of another 'potential' threat which would nullify our previous investment, and then send us down another path of blowing billions more. And they seem to be doing a damn good job of winning this new spy-vs-spy war.

By now the Russians realize that the threat posed by the USA is NOT military, and it hasn't been since the Cuban missle crisis. It is economic. And they are doing a better job of wrecking our economy with imaginary threats and tweaking our new enemies, than they ever did by posing an actual threat in the cold war.

Our greatest gain against the Russians since the end of WWII was not the fall of the Eastern Bloc, per se. It did not even occur last week when seven new nations joined Nato. Three of the new members -- the Baltic states of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia -- are former Soviet republics, but don't pose a military threat to them or an advantage to us. They and the other new members join the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland as countries that once were home to Soviet troops but now are allied with the onetime enemies of the Soviet Union. So what? The Russians have benefited GREATLY by not having to station hundreds of thousands of disgruntled troops in those countries, and mostly by not having to take their shoody goods in exchange for Russian oil. The greatest loss to the Russians from this is in not military. And their greatest gain is clearly the 'monster' natural gas pipelines into Germany and Western Europe. 

Basicaly the present geo-political situation and realignment boils down to this factor, from the Russian perspective: they would rather sell their enormous (and understated) oil and gas reserves (they are to natural gas what the Saudis are to oil) to the Germans, who can pay, rather than to Poles and Czechs, who can't. And from our perspective, does anyone really think that 9/11 would have happened if we had achieved energy independence years ago, and did not bully around Arabs in defence of Israel and low oil prices?
 
> If somebody has an actual workable plan for derailing this insane mess, speak up please. 

Well, it's not a 'workable' plan, given ingrained present political realities, but here goes. First suggestion is to disregard anything the Russians say in the press, drop ABM, get out of the mid-east, let Israel go her own way, apologize to the Arabs for the innocent deaths, stop exporting jobs to Asia and forget this fiction of a "global" economy. Some economist will say that we have never benefited much from the global economy, when the "real" costs are tallied up, except maybe to be able to buy more reliable cars from the Japanese, or fancier ones from the Germans. How do you deduct the real cost of a lost job, say in a textile mill closed by Chinese competition, to a 30 year old who has no desire to be retrained? That may be a job lost 'forever' and an asset permanently converted into a liability, just to boost one-time trade numbers.

Perhaps that is too extreme a view, perhaps not, but our focus should be on US jobs and US intangibles (you can't teach morality when you are killing innocent foreigners), and not on "numbers" like GNP or some other easily manipulated measure of competitive prowess. Let's face it, we have been brainwashed into believing that GNP growth is the measure of success - but that is just a number. 

The second broad suggestion is to get the USA off of foreign oil. No matter how much it costs us in dollars - the intrinsic cost of doing business with people that hate us (for good reason) is greater than the added cost of bio-fuel, refined coal fuel, or whatever syn-fuel modern technology can devise. The third related suggestion is to switch $50 billion yearly in military spending over to alternative fuels, syn-fuels and energy self-stuffiness immediately... today, and to increase that by 15% per year until LENR, safe nuclear, and others technologies are perfected. Drop hot fusion, drop bureaucratic R&D in favor of individual inventors, get out of S. Korea, pay more attention to Mexico, and so on.

There is a new form of "energy isolationism" afloat in the minds of some progressive planners that can do what no amount of military preparation can accomplish. It can place our country in a position of dealing with the rest of the world on our own terms, not as bullies but as buyers (of their goods). Rather than having to essentially grovel and fight our way to satisfying oil cravings, debasing our values and killing innocent civilians, we as a nation should be saying that globalism is about fairness, security, and NOT about numbers. It is absolutely disgusting when our military claims, when asked how many non-combatant Iraqis have died: "Oh, we don't keep those kinds of records!" when every detail about other costs are kept down to the slim dime (unfortunately for Cheney's alma mater - Halliburton).  If that denial of the importance of civilian casualties sound Nazi-esque - it is, and it is further evidence of why the Arabs justifiably hate us. 

And we never needed to go down this path. Many experts who have looked at this issue say that the extra cost of energy self-sufficiency to the USA economy, although is hundreds of billions up front and at least a buck a gallon from there on out - even that, in the longer term perspective of eliminating 9/11 style terrorism, can be paid-off out of hundreds of billions saved in military budgets, which will always increase faster than gasoline prices. Compare our *real* defense budget with our imported oil costs, and it is easy to see how we can begin to solve both problems with a single solution, if we only had the political will-power. 

And that (the political will-power) unfortunately requires an administration with few ties to 'big oil.' Which is not a political sentiment or party choice - Republicans tend to more isolationist, more practical (outside of oil) and they used to be more fiscally responsible (in the good old days) so the best choice for the upcoming election (from a dispassionate perspective) would be a Republican administration that had somehow come to their senses and become disgusted with 'big oil.' Second best would be ANY administration that had somehow became disgusted with 'big oil." Neither of these choices is on the ballot now, but stranger things have happened.

Does anyone really think that 9/11 would have occurred if we had achieved energy independence in the 1980s, when all we lacked then to do it was 'political will power.' Sure, some 'corporate' farmers or coal miners or nuclear plant operators would have benefited most from renewable fuels, and they would probably have become greedy bullies themselves, but wouldn't you rather see those greed-dollars stay in the USA, even in the hands of coal miners or nuclear plant operators, than filter back through Saudi and other Arab sponsors to al Quaeda terrorist ?

Jones

Whew, I need to lighten up. 

Even for Jimmy Carter, not exactly a pawn of big oil... his idea of getting tough with the big oil companies is making the guy at the pump check your oil and wash your windows. And Bill Clinton (the only guy who goes to a baseball game and roots for both teams) waffled more when dealing with big oil than the International House of Pancakes. But Dubya takes the (pan)cake for nominating America's Oil Companies for a Noble prize for a lifetime body of work proving that oil and water don't mix. 

Dick walks into the Oval Office and sees Dubya whooping and hollering, "What's the matter, Mr. President?" The Vice President inquires. 

"Nothing at all, boss. I just done finished the jigsaw puzzle that Halliburton gave us in record time!" The President beamed. 

"Dammit, Dubya, that was for my grandkids, but how long did it take?" 

"Well, the box said '3 to 5 Years' but I did it in a month!"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 31 10:14:46 2004
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Hi All,

Although I think the methanol approach is most
adaptable to breaking the political grip of those
whose highest priority is to make the world safe for the
owners of oil wells, the following from the hydrino list
is of considerable interest.

NOTE:  METHANOL not ethanol -- what did the Martians
do with all that corn -- burn it or drink it?

Jack Smith

------------------------

http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_467.shtml

Breakthrough in Electrolysis of Water
By PEB based on material from Department of Chemistry, Indian
Institute of Technology Madras
Mar 21, 2004, 13:56

Prof R. P. Viswanath and his research group of the Department of
Chemistry, Indian Institute of Technology Madras has been trying to
look into problem of water electrolysis and using a compartmentalized
electrolytic cell they have been successful to split water into
hydrogen and oxygen at a relatively much lower potential of around
0.90 V compared to 1.23V. 

The theoretical minimum decomposition potential to split water into
the elements hydrogen and oxygen requires a potential of 1.23 V. But
due to various reasons a higher potential is necessary to generate
hydrogen from water. 

The energy required to produce hydrogen by electrolysis is about 32.9
kW-hr/kg. A kilogram is about 2.2 lb. For 1 mole (2 g) of hydrogen the
energy is about 0.0660 kW-hr / mole. For commercial electrolysis
systems that operate at about 1 A/cm2, a voltage of 1.75 V is
required. This translates into about 46.8 kW-hr / kg, which
corresponds to an energy efficiency of 70%. Lowering the voltage for
electrolysis, which will increase the energy efficiency of the
process, is an important area for research. Intense research persists
to better understand ways to improve these hydrogen production methods. 

Thermodynamic laws defied? 

In the Madras laboratory, by using a compartmentalized electrolytic
cell, Prof. Viswanath and his team claims to have been successful to
split water into hydrogen and oxygen at a relatively much lower
potential of around 0.90 V. This they claim is achieved by applying a
chemical bias, which is yet to be accounted for. According to Prof.
Viswanath the products of electrolysis are only hydrogen and oxygen
without any side products like chlorine, alkali, etc., In terms of
current efficiency this works out to a phenomenal figure of 135 %. 

The decomposition potential for water splitting in different media 
were measured potentiostatically and found to be 1.43 V and 1.60 V in
1 molar H+ (mineral acid - HCl) and sodium hydroxide, respectively.
This is as per the expectations. With the setup the Indian found this
to happen around 0.85 – 0.95 V. The electrolysis under these
conditions has been followed for 30 days. Now the team is in the
process of studying this for a longer period and is also contemplating
designing different types of cells for further improvement. 

The electrolysis of water has been studied using polished platinum
cathode and various anodes like platinum, titanium, titanium coated
with cobalt, nickel, etc.,. The cell is divided into two compartments
using a chemically treated disc separator, which Prof. Viswanath
points out are not of the nafion type. Two chemically different
electrolytes have been used as catholyte and anolyte. The results are
shown in the figures 1 to 3.

 
Figure 1. Acid electrolysis of water with Pt electrodes 


 
Figure 2. Alkaline electrolysis of water with different anodes(and Pt
cathode) 


 
Figure 3A. Electrolysis in a divided cell (Ptcathode and different
anodes), using chemically different catholyte and anolyte. 


 
Figure 3B. Electrolysis in a divided cell (Pt cathode and different
anodes), using chemically different catholyte and anolyte. 


The potential advantages of this cell are: 

anode and cathode materials can be different 

the two electrolytes are different chemically and hence electrolyte
over potentials can be minimized 

hydrogen and oxygen are free from contamination 

can be employed in pollution control exercises also 

energy saved due to electrolysis at a lower potential compared to the
burning of hydrogen can be recycled – in other words one can have a
pack of electrolytic cells and hydrogen fuel cells where only
electrolyte solution has to be added for running the IC engine or any
other device 

most important of cost of hydrogen will be greatly reduced compared to
the present day methods 

Since, the potential needed to split water is less than the
theoretical value of 1.23 volts (namely, ~ 1.0 volt), as per Prof.
Viswanath and his team's experimental set-up and the potential
developed during oxidation of hydrogen with oxygen is the same 1.23
volts, there is a net gain of ~ 0.23 volt. 

The experimental setup can be seen (MPG-file 9MB) on the website of
Department of Chemistry, Indian Institute of Technology Madras.

Editor's note: The result by Prof. Viswanath and his team has been
brought in the interest of a discussion on scientific breakthroughs
needed to bring about the Hydrogen Economy. Further comments on the
results can be communicated to Prof. Viswanath and the Editor of
Hydrogen Cars Business. 

© Copyright 2002-2004 by H2CARSBIZ, ZEES A/S


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Hi,

I'm not sure why these two interesting but disparate ideas were combined in one post, and I hope if anyone comments on this part of it that they change the subject bar to indicate the Indian electrolysis experiment.

But in regard to the second report, which appeared today on the hydrino forum, it fits right in with some recent brainstorming about the possibility of there being two or more sources for the "excess energy" in cold fusion. Any such second source would, of course, negate the importance of the finding of a rough proportionality between nuclear ash and excess energy.

I downloaded the video, but don't waste your time. It is over 50 megs and basically just shows a cell with water being split at about 1 volt, although the reaction rate is underwhelming.

The India OU claim is achieved by applying a full electrochemical bias rather than a simple voltage bias across a single electrolyte, basically this is a dual electrolyte setup - sodium hydroxide on one side and sulfuric acid on the other - membrane in between. Kind of reminiscent of the old "Grove battery". They say, in effect that the OU "is yet to be accounted for," according to Prof. Viswanath. But I believe that the recent speculations in various postings, instigated by Fred Sparber and myself can provide a workable chemical-based hypothesis for this kind of OU, so long as you don't need to get too specific about where the excess is *ultimately* coming from (i.e. Dirac's sea -ZPE- hydrino etc). 

In terms of efficiency this report works out to a COP figure of 1.35 compared with about 70% efficiency for "normal" unenhanced electrolysis. But again the cross-section is underwhelming so far... but they are using a tiny membrane and widely separated electrodes. This should so immediate improvement with a large surface area membrane.

I would strongly suggest that anyone trying to maximize the energy gains of LENR electrolysis should attempt to apply this or some variation of the dual electrolyte technique, to see if there is some added synergy when substituting a Pd cathode for the Pt as used. 

Personal note: I have split water with less than one volt, but the reaction rate was way too slow to matter much, and I was using thoriated electrodes. Now, I hope to soon set up a cell using this recently reported combination of dual electrolytes with a larger membrane to see what happens to the reaction rate using a combined technique. The Indian researchers are being coy about the membrane composition they used but say that their separator is not of the nafion type. Any guesses? 

I recently got hold of a large surface area sample proton transfer membrane which, believe it or not, is made of Gore-tex but not your basic REI type... but perhaps it will be interesting to try. Anything that can stand up to a strong acid on one side and a strong base on the other is going to be exotic... but Teflon is claimed to do this and this Gore-tex is said to be based on Teflon. Who knows.

Jones

BTW in re: the Grove battery:  Sir William Robert Grove is known as "Father of the Fuel Cell." Before the Am. Civil War, Grove invented a battery of special significance - a battery which is said to have been *unsurpassed* in terms of power density for 120 years until lithium cells recently arrived. It consisted of zinc in dilute sulfuric acid on one side plus platinum in concentrated nitric acid, separated by a porous ceramic. It was little used because of the extreme cost of platinum and was quickly supplanted by less expensive and less toxic combinations (it discharged poisonous nitric-based gases as the cell discharged, and was almost as much a self-generating hydrogen fuel-cell as battery. But it was truly amazing and *truly neglected*... up to now.




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When I hear of people claiming to break water at abnormally low voltage,
my hair stands on end and I'm compelled to inject some reality.  The
minimum potential to decompose pure water under standard state conditions
is 1.44 volts.  This voltage can be lowered when the activities of H+ or
O-- are lowered by some means.  Unfortunately, it takes energy to lower
these activities, which is seldom recognized when these claims are made.
In addition, the closer the applied voltage is to the limit, the smaller
the current that can be passed through the cell, hence the smaller the
rate of decomposition.  Only two variables are available for exploration.
The overpotential and cell resistance can be reduced so that a minimum
amount of energy is lost to heat or a person can claim to produce an over
unity process.  If the latter is the claim, the discovery is much more
important than just making hydrogen easily.  Rational claims for
increasing the efficiency are based on applying another source of energy,
such as sun light, to increase the overall efficiency, or some inexpensive
chemical process to lower the activities.  The description below suggests
a chemical source.  If that is the case, this source is far more important
than the electrolysis process, which is only one of several processes that
can produce hydrogen from a hydrogen containing chemical.

Ed



"Taylor J. Smith" wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Although I think the methanol approach is most
> adaptable to breaking the political grip of those
> whose highest priority is to make the world safe for the
> owners of oil wells, the following from the hydrino list
> is of considerable interest.
>
> NOTE:  METHANOL not ethanol -- what did the Martians
> do with all that corn -- burn it or drink it?
>
> Jack Smith
>
> ------------------------
>
> http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_467.shtml
>
> Breakthrough in Electrolysis of Water
> By PEB based on material from Department of Chemistry, Indian
> Institute of Technology Madras
> Mar 21, 2004, 13:56
>
> Prof R. P. Viswanath and his research group of the Department of
> Chemistry, Indian Institute of Technology Madras has been trying to
> look into problem of water electrolysis and using a compartmentalized
> electrolytic cell they have been successful to split water into
> hydrogen and oxygen at a relatively much lower potential of around
> 0.90 V compared to 1.23V.
>
> The theoretical minimum decomposition potential to split water into
> the elements hydrogen and oxygen requires a potential of 1.23 V. But
> due to various reasons a higher potential is necessary to generate
> hydrogen from water.
>
> The energy required to produce hydrogen by electrolysis is about 32.9
> kW-hr/kg. A kilogram is about 2.2 lb. For 1 mole (2 g) of hydrogen the
> energy is about 0.0660 kW-hr / mole. For commercial electrolysis
> systems that operate at about 1 A/cm2, a voltage of 1.75 V is
> required. This translates into about 46.8 kW-hr / kg, which
> corresponds to an energy efficiency of 70%. Lowering the voltage for
> electrolysis, which will increase the energy efficiency of the
> process, is an important area for research. Intense research persists
> to better understand ways to improve these hydrogen production methods.
>
> Thermodynamic laws defied?
>
> In the Madras laboratory, by using a compartmentalized electrolytic
> cell, Prof. Viswanath and his team claims to have been successful to
> split water into hydrogen and oxygen at a relatively much lower
> potential of around 0.90 V. This they claim is achieved by applying a
> chemical bias, which is yet to be accounted for. According to Prof.
> Viswanath the products of electrolysis are only hydrogen and oxygen
> without any side products like chlorine, alkali, etc., In terms of
> current efficiency this works out to a phenomenal figure of 135 %.
>
> The decomposition potential for water splitting in different media
> were measured potentiostatically and found to be 1.43 V and 1.60 V in
> 1 molar H+ (mineral acid - HCl) and sodium hydroxide, respectively.
> This is as per the expectations. With the setup the Indian found this
> to happen around 0.85 ? 0.95 V. The electrolysis under these
> conditions has been followed for 30 days. Now the team is in the
> process of studying this for a longer period and is also contemplating
> designing different types of cells for further improvement.
>
> The electrolysis of water has been studied using polished platinum
> cathode and various anodes like platinum, titanium, titanium coated
> with cobalt, nickel, etc.,. The cell is divided into two compartments
> using a chemically treated disc separator, which Prof. Viswanath
> points out are not of the nafion type. Two chemically different
> electrolytes have been used as catholyte and anolyte. The results are
> shown in the figures 1 to 3.
>
>
> Figure 1. Acid electrolysis of water with Pt electrodes
>
>
> Figure 2. Alkaline electrolysis of water with different anodes(and Pt
> cathode)
>
>
> Figure 3A. Electrolysis in a divided cell (Ptcathode and different
> anodes), using chemically different catholyte and anolyte.
>
>
> Figure 3B. Electrolysis in a divided cell (Pt cathode and different
> anodes), using chemically different catholyte and anolyte.
>
> The potential advantages of this cell are:
>
> anode and cathode materials can be different
>
> the two electrolytes are different chemically and hence electrolyte
> over potentials can be minimized
>
> hydrogen and oxygen are free from contamination
>
> can be employed in pollution control exercises also
>
> energy saved due to electrolysis at a lower potential compared to the
> burning of hydrogen can be recycled ? in other words one can have a
> pack of electrolytic cells and hydrogen fuel cells where only
> electrolyte solution has to be added for running the IC engine or any
> other device
>
> most important of cost of hydrogen will be greatly reduced compared to
> the present day methods
>
> Since, the potential needed to split water is less than the
> theoretical value of 1.23 volts (namely, ~ 1.0 volt), as per Prof.
> Viswanath and his team's experimental set-up and the potential
> developed during oxidation of hydrogen with oxygen is the same 1.23
> volts, there is a net gain of ~ 0.23 volt.
>
> The experimental setup can be seen (MPG-file 9MB) on the website of
> Department of Chemistry, Indian Institute of Technology Madras.
>
> Editor's note: The result by Prof. Viswanath and his team has been
> brought in the interest of a discussion on scientific breakthroughs
> needed to bring about the Hydrogen Economy. Further comments on the
> results can be communicated to Prof. Viswanath and the Editor of
> Hydrogen Cars Business.
>
> © Copyright 2002-2004 by H2CARSBIZ, ZEES A/S

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Has anybody heard from John lately?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 31 11:52:08 2004
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Subject: Indian water splitting cell / was Carbon-Neutral, corn alternative
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:18:15 -0500
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Howdy.

It sounds like you'd end up with a bunch of gas, and a cell
filled with sodium sulfate solution. Am I missing something here?
The cell geometry suggests this as well, optimizing the
time over which this reaction can take place.

Yes, I understand that the membrane is supposed to prevent
that, but given the small (<1ma) currents involved and
the lack of supporting data, doesn't it seem a likely
possibility? Doing this over the course of a month is
suggestive, if everything remains the same except for
water level. But no mention is made of pH measurement
over the life of the experiment.

Here's the Researchers homepage. Plenty of contact info,
if you're so inclined.

http://www.chem.iitm.ac.in/viswanathrp.htm

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 1:55 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Carbon-Neutral, corn alternative


Hi,

I'm not sure why these two interesting but disparate ideas were combined in one post, and I hope if anyone comments on this part of
it that they change the subject bar to indicate the Indian electrolysis experiment.

But in regard to the second report, which appeared today on the hydrino forum, it fits right in with some recent brainstorming about
the possibility of there being two or more sources for the "excess energy" in cold fusion. Any such second source would, of course,
negate the importance of the finding of a rough proportionality between nuclear ash and excess energy.

I downloaded the video, but don't waste your time. It is over 50 megs and basically just shows a cell with water being split at
about 1 volt, although the reaction rate is underwhelming.

The India OU claim is achieved by applying a full electrochemical bias rather than a simple voltage bias across a single
electrolyte, basically this is a dual electrolyte setup - sodium hydroxide on one side and sulfuric acid on the other - membrane in
between. Kind of reminiscent of the old "Grove battery". They say, in effect that the OU "is yet to be accounted for," according to
Prof. Viswanath. But I believe that the recent speculations in various postings, instigated by Fred Sparber and myself can provide a
workable chemical-based hypothesis for this kind of OU, so long as you don't need to get too specific about where the excess is
*ultimately* coming from (i.e. Dirac's sea -ZPE- hydrino etc).

In terms of efficiency this report works out to a COP figure of 1.35 compared with about 70% efficiency for "normal" unenhanced
electrolysis. But again the cross-section is underwhelming so far... but they are using a tiny membrane and widely separated
electrodes. This should so immediate improvement with a large surface area membrane.

I would strongly suggest that anyone trying to maximize the energy gains of LENR electrolysis should attempt to apply this or some
variation of the dual electrolyte technique, to see if there is some added synergy when substituting a Pd cathode for the Pt as
used.

Personal note: I have split water with less than one volt, but the reaction rate was way too slow to matter much, and I was using
thoriated electrodes. Now, I hope to soon set up a cell using this recently reported combination of dual electrolytes with a larger
membrane to see what happens to the reaction rate using a combined technique. The Indian researchers are being coy about the
membrane composition they used but say that their separator is not of the nafion type. Any guesses?

I recently got hold of a large surface area sample proton transfer membrane which, believe it or not, is made of Gore-tex but not
your basic REI type... but perhaps it will be interesting to try. Anything that can stand up to a strong acid on one side and a
strong base on the other is going to be exotic... but Teflon is claimed to do this and this Gore-tex is said to be based on Teflon.
Who knows.

Jones

BTW in re: the Grove battery:  Sir William Robert Grove is known as "Father of the Fuel Cell." Before the Am. Civil War, Grove
invented a battery of special significance - a battery which is said to have been *unsurpassed* in terms of power density for 120
years until lithium cells recently arrived. It consisted of zinc in dilute sulfuric acid on one side plus platinum in concentrated
nitric acid, separated by a porous ceramic. It was little used because of the extreme cost of platinum and was quickly supplanted by
less expensive and less toxic combinations (it discharged poisonous nitric-based gases as the cell discharged, and was almost as
much a self-generating hydrogen fuel-cell as battery. But it was truly amazing and *truly neglected*... up to now.




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Howdy-back
 
> It sounds like you'd end up with a bunch of gas, and a cell
> filled with sodium sulfate solution. Am I missing something here?

Well, the membrane should be designed to be capable of keeping the base and acid separated for long periods, and only conduct protons - just as in the Grove cell, where unfired ceramic circa 1860 worked for several years of relaying telegraph messages, apparently. 

> Yes, I understand that the membrane is supposed to prevent
> that, but given the small (<1ma) currents involved and
> the lack of supporting data, doesn't it seem a likely
> possibility? 

Well, it is so very simple to try to reproduce that we should know soon, shouldn't we? And Grove-cells were multi-amp jobs. I am encouraged by looking at the age and experience of the Indian experimenter. He is a PhD who should not be succumbing to the pitfalls that Ed suggest, nor could the many others who have found something similar but less pronounced. 

BTW for a historical voyage, possibly enlightening, try googlong the "Grove battery." My info comes from memory and an old textbook, so I'm not sure how much is on the web, but it is/was a fascinating story.

Jones

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> Has anybody heard from John lately?
> 
I have heard indirectly that he is on the West Coast.

Mike Carrell

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Another pregnant thought on how the "Grove cell" operated. It was the original power source for the early telegraph, back in the days when Morse code was considered high-bandwidth. It may also have been 150 years ahead of its time. 

The Grove cell blurred the distinction between a battery, an electrolysis cell, and a fuel-cell... and still draws consternation to those like myself who are slightly dyslexic anyway, especially when it comes to pinpointing when a cathode becomes an anode. Essentially, it was not a battery at all but really a combined fuel-cell and "zinc burner" in one package. 

You may remember the famous Chemalloy patent, where powdered chemalloy produces hydrogen:
http://www.nuscam.com/pdf/AlloyPatent.pdf
Chemalloy, which was patented in 1952 by Samuel Freedman, is used as a solder today but is basically zinc with some other metals that can act as catalysts. A notorious free energy scam artist recently touted "his" special alloy as a magical free-energy hydrogen source - but on closer inspection, it was found out to be store-bought chemalloy, quadrupled in price. This alloy does indeed work as advertised to produce hydrogen from water with no oxygen - by essentially burning zinc into zinc oxide and releasing the hydrogen. It is not OU at all but combustion. 

Now to the experiment in question: it uses Pt electrodes on both sides so no zinc or any other metal is consumed. There is no combustion process. Fuel cells are generally reversible to become electrolysis cells. What the Indian fellow may have done is stumbled on a OU reversed fuel-cell that operates through the "bare proton" pathway that I have been floating recently on vortex as a hypothetical way that mass-energy in the form of a 3.4 eV "entity" (photon or light lepton) can be cohered from Dirac's sea. The 3.4 eV entity is best known as both the half-ionization energy of positronium (a major component of the Dirac sea interface) and/or the best estimate for mass of the electron anti-neutrino. It is probably related to both phenomena.

The reason this particular cell would keep a proton 'bare' for longer (and were talking picoseconds here) than a normal electrolysis cell is that the two sides of the reaction are separated by the membrane, unlike regular electrolysis and by an extended spatial gap that doesn't seem to interfere with things.

Nevertheless, I will predict this: if one of us can produce copious hydrogen with 1 volt or less in such a cell, then all one needs to do to find the source of the free energy is this low-tech (and low-brow) method:
1) rummage around the attic
2) bring out some of your old hippie late-'60s style "artwork" (i.e. iridescent posters from the era of free-love) 
3) turn off the lights
4) turn on your electrolysis cell 

The cell in question should make the old artwork glow anew. Might as well throw "Stairway to Heaven" on the stereo to complete the ambience...

Jones

With apologies to those post-boomer on the forum who haven't got a clue as to what I am talking about...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Mar 31 14:57:16 2004
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Jones, I think you are mixing protons with phonons.  The cell you describe can be argued to make excess energy, but how does this relate to making excess hydrogen?  I do not understand how any over unity device can directly decompose more water than is allowed by electron transfer, which is provided by the applied current. To split water, you have to get an electron to go from the oxygen, which is forming at the anode to the hydrogen which is forming at the cathode.  How does your mechanism move this electron?

Ed

Jones Beene wrote:

> Another pregnant thought on how the "Grove cell" operated. It was the original power source for the early telegraph, back in the days when Morse code was considered high-bandwidth. It may also have been 150 years ahead of its time.
>
> The Grove cell blurred the distinction between a battery, an electrolysis cell, and a fuel-cell... and still draws consternation to those like myself who are slightly dyslexic anyway, especially when it comes to pinpointing when a cathode becomes an anode. Essentially, it was not a battery at all but really a combined fuel-cell and "zinc burner" in one package.
>
> You may remember the famous Chemalloy patent, where powdered chemalloy produces hydrogen:
> http://www.nuscam.com/pdf/AlloyPatent.pdf
> Chemalloy, which was patented in 1952 by Samuel Freedman, is used as a solder today but is basically zinc with some other metals that can act as catalysts. A notorious free energy scam artist recently touted "his" special alloy as a magical free-energy hydrogen source - but on closer inspection, it was found out to be store-bought chemalloy, quadrupled in price. This alloy does indeed work as advertised to produce hydrogen from water with no oxygen - by essentially burning zinc into zinc oxide and releasing the hydrogen. It is not OU at all but combustion.
>
> Now to the experiment in question: it uses Pt electrodes on both sides so no zinc or any other metal is consumed. There is no combustion process. Fuel cells are generally reversible to become electrolysis cells. What the Indian fellow may have done is stumbled on a OU reversed fuel-cell that operates through the "bare proton" pathway that I have been floating recently on vortex as a hypothetical way that mass-energy in the form of a 3.4 eV "entity" (photon or light lepton) can be cohered from Dirac's sea. The 3.4 eV entity is best known as both the half-ionization energy of positronium (a major component of the Dirac sea interface) and/or the best estimate for mass of the electron anti-neutrino. It is probably related to both phenomena.
>
> The reason this particular cell would keep a proton 'bare' for longer (and were talking picoseconds here) than a normal electrolysis cell is that the two sides of the reaction are separated by the membrane, unlike regular electrolysis and by an extended spatial gap that doesn't seem to interfere with things.
>
> Nevertheless, I will predict this: if one of us can produce copious hydrogen with 1 volt or less in such a cell, then all one needs to do to find the source of the free energy is this low-tech (and low-brow) method:
> 1) rummage around the attic
> 2) bring out some of your old hippie late-'60s style "artwork" (i.e. iridescent posters from the era of free-love)
> 3) turn off the lights
> 4) turn on your electrolysis cell
>
> The cell in question should make the old artwork glow anew. Might as well throw "Stairway to Heaven" on the stereo to complete the ambience...
>
> Jones
>
> With apologies to those post-boomer on the forum who haven't got a clue as to what I am talking about...

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Ed, 

> Jones, I think you are mixing protons with phonons.  The cell you describe can be argued to make excess energy, but how does this relate to making excess hydrogen?  

I'm not mixing protons with phonons or anything else - but first, are we clear that the Grove cell functions by combustion of zinc, and is fundamentally different from the Indian cell ? The Grove cell was brought into the discussion in order to clarify an element of the different dynamics, but apparently it didn't achieve that goal. 

In the Indian cell, hydrogen is formed in proportion to current, as in normal electrolysis - but the decomposition itself is achieved at lower voltage, aided by the biased electrochemistry in place, which apparently cannot happen this way without having acid on one side of the membrane and base on the other, which is a key concept here and major departure from normal electrochemical dynamics.

> I do not understand how any over unity device can directly decompose more water than is allowed by electron transfer, which is provided by the applied current. 

I am not suggesting that.

> To split water, you have to get an electron to go from the oxygen, which is forming at the anode to the hydrogen which is forming at the cathode.

Not exactly. You are describing normal electrolysis with a single electrolyte.

> How does your mechanism move this electron?

The thing to keep in mind as being radically different is that electron transfer happens on the membrane, rather than the electrodes. IOW as any proton on the positively -charged side is temporarily freed from its hydroxyl ion near the membrane interface, that hydroxyl is attracted back to the positively-charged electrode, while the proton is repulsed into the membrane then immediately attracted across that membrane by the electrons which have migrated from the negatively-charged electrode. This novel method apparently cannot happen this way without the 'double bias' of having acid on one side and base on the other, which is a key concept here and major departure from normal electrodynamics.

I hope that is clearer.

Jones



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-------------------------------1080780021
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In a message dated 3/31/2004 3:41:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
biophilo bellsouth.net writes:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994795

NASA develops 'mind-reading' system 
Updated 15:35 22 March 04
NewScientist.com news service
 

A computer program which can read silently spoken words by analyzing nerve 
signals in our mouths and throats, has been developed by NASA.

Preliminary results show that using button-sized sensors, which attach under 
the chin and on the side of the Adam's apple, it is possible to pick up and 
recognize nerve signals and patterns from the tongue and vocal cords that 
correspond to specific words.
"In fact the Roman Temples where amplifiers used to pick up scalar 
electromagnetic waves from the town to allow priests to listen to the thoughts of their 
citizens.  The knowledge of scalar electro wave circuits has been around since 
the days of the Romans, and are simply repressed to this day for political 
reasons of spying and mind control. "

The human brain and human body cells are made of 70 percent water and oxygen 
(H20). Water and oxygen are dieletrics or anticonductors which carry scalar 
electro voltage potential energy waves. The air in our atmosphere on Earth is an 
anticonductor and also carry's scalar electro voltage potential energy waves. 
 The human brain and body are receivers much like a cellular phone for scalar 
electro-voltage energy waves.  All of human thought is encoded in scalar 
electro voltage potential energy waves and photons.  We only need to make a 
receiver much like a cellular phone, that receives scalar electro voltage energy 
waves to see human thought.  Traditional cellular phones and radio waves use 
magnetoelectric current to carry information.  If we modify a cellular phone to 
carry and receive scalar electromagnetic voltage waves, then we can hear and see 
human thought on a TV screen by means of scalar electro-magnetic radio waves. 

Most popular electronics books ignore dielectric scalar electromagnetic 
voltage wave electronics, even though they can be easily placed into electrical 
devices by using dielectric circuits instead of conducting circuits.  The Romans 
used scalar wave electronics and vortex detecting devices to build their roads 
and temples.  In fact the Roman Temples where amplifiers used to pick up 
scalar electro waves from the town to allow priests to listen to the thoughts of 
their citizens.  The knowledge of scalar electro wave circuits has been around 
since the days of the Romans, and are simply repressed to this day for 
political reasons of spying and mind control. 

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html
President Thomas D. Clark, 
Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: 
www.rhfweb.com\personal
New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

-------------------------------1080780021
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 3/31/2004 3:41:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, biophilo=
 bellsouth.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT size=3D2><A title=3Dhttp://www.newscientist.com/news/news.j=
sp?id=3Dns99994795 href=3D"http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=3Dns=
99994795"><FONT face=3DArial>http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=
=3Dns99994795</FONT></A><BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial><B>NASA develops 'mind-re=
ading' system</B> <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Updated 15:3=
5 22 March 04<BR>NewScientist.com news service<BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20=
size=3D3>&nbsp;<BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A computer program=
 which can read silently spoken words by analyzing nerve signals in our mout=
hs and throats, has been developed by NASA.<BR><BR>Preliminary results show=20=
that using button-sized sensors, which attach under the chin and on the side=
 of the Adam's apple, it is possible to pick up and recognize nerve signals=20=
and patterns from the tongue and vocal cords that correspond to specific wor=
ds.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>"In fact the Roman Temples where amplifiers used to pick up scalar elec=
tromagnetic waves from the&nbsp;town to allow priests to listen to the thoug=
hts of their citizens.&nbsp; The knowledge of scalar electro wave circuits h=
as been around since the days of the Romans, and are simply repressed to thi=
s day for political reasons of spying and mind control. "</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The human brain and human body cells&nbsp;are made of 70 percent water=20=
and&nbsp;oxygen&nbsp;(H20). Water and oxygen are dieletrics or anticonductor=
s which carry scalar electro voltage potential energy waves. The air in our=20=
atmosphere on Earth is an anticonductor and also carry's scalar electro volt=
age potential energy waves.&nbsp; The human brain and body are receivers muc=
h like a cellular phone for scalar electro-voltage energy waves.&nbsp; All o=
f human thought is encoded in scalar electro voltage potential energy waves=20=
and photons.&nbsp; We only need to make a receiver much like a cellular phon=
e, that receives scalar&nbsp;electro voltage energy waves to see&nbsp;human=20=
thought.&nbsp; Traditional cellular phones and&nbsp;radio waves&nbsp;use&nbs=
p;magnetoelectric current to carry&nbsp;information. &nbsp;If we modify a ce=
llular phone to carry and receive scalar electromagnetic voltage waves, then=
 we can hear and see human thought on a TV screen by means of scalar electro=
-magnetic radio waves. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Most popular electronics books ignore dielectric scalar electromagnetic=
 voltage wave electronics, even though they can be easily placed into electr=
ical devices by using dielectric circuits instead of conducting circuits.&nb=
sp; The Romans used scalar wave electronics and vortex detecting devices to=20=
build their roads and temples.&nbsp; In fact the Roman Temples where amplifi=
ers used to pick up scalar electro waves from the&nbsp;town to allow priests=
 to listen to the thoughts of their citizens.&nbsp; The knowledge of scalar=20=
electro wave circuits has been around since the days of the Romans, and are=20=
simply repressed to this day for political reasons of spying and mind contro=
l. </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 PTSIZE=3D"10" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=
><BR>Baron Von Volsung, <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/baron href=3D"http:=
//www.rhfweb.com/baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>, Email: <A title=3Dhttp://w=
ww.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html">w=
ww.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A><BR>President Thomas D. Clark, <BR>Email: <A=
 title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/=
emailform.html">www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html</A>, Personal Web Page: <A tit=
le=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/personal href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">=
www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>New Age Production's Inc., <A title=3Dhttp://=
www.rhfweb.com/newage href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">www.rhfweb.com\n=
ewage</A><BR>Star Haven Community Services, at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.=
com/sh href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/sh">www.rhfweb.com\sh</A><BR>Radiation=20=
Health Foundation Trust at <A title=3Dhttp://www.rhfweb.com/ href=3D"http://=
www.rhfweb.com/">www.rhfweb.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1080780021--

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Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:58:06 -0500
Subject: Deseret Morning News coverage of DoE reversal
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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More news of the DoE reversal. Nothing new except Huizenga's criminal BS
that continues ad infinitum without any basis in fact. HO hum, business as
usual in the world of Fizzix



Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
President, New Energy Foundation, Inc. (A Non-profit, 501(c)(3) Corporation)
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
        www.infinite-energy.com    editor infinite-energy.com
        603-485-4700  Fx: 603-485-4710


 
********  http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595052693,00.html

    Wednesday, March 31, 2004

 
 DOE to review a new batch of claims in cold-fusion quest

'I think it's high time, actually,' BYU's Jones says

By Joe Bauman
Deseret Morning News

      Fifteen years after the University of Utah made the now infamous
announcement that two of its chemists had produced "cold fusion" in their
lab, the U.S. Department of Energy will review a new batch of claims by
other researchers.
U. chemists B. Stanley Pons, left, and Martin Fleischmann describe their
cold-fusion experiments during a press conference in 1989. Their work was
later discredited.
Paul Barker, Deseret Morning News      Even though most mainstream
scientists consider cold fusion literally cold ‹ as in dead cold ‹ and at
least one prominent critic thinks the DOE will be wasting its time, a band
of researchers who have refused to give up are delighted by the review.
      Although the DOE has received no proposals for new studies or provided
new funding in the controversial field, research by what James F. Decker,
deputy director of DOE Office of Science, calls some "excellent scientific
institutions" the past 15 years deserves a look.
      His interest was apparently sparked at least in part by a story in the
Wall Street Journal on research results being reported at the 10th
International Conference on Cold Fusion.
      U. chemists B. Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, announced March
23, 1989, that they had captured the process that powers the sun in a small
apparatus working at room temperature.
      The hope of limitless, cheap, electrical power faded quickly, even
with a $5 million appropriation from the Legislature, as scientists around
the world raced ‹ with mixed outcomes ‹ to duplicate the results. Eight
months later, a special DOE review panel concluded that the research was
almost surely an illusion.
      Some scientists had announced they could not reproduce the results. A
few believed they were achieving cold fusion. Others pointed to what they
considered flaws in the Utah work. Critics became increasingly vocal, with
some denouncing Pons and Fleischmann's findings as "pathological science."
"A group of scientists requested a meeting with the Office of Science,"
Decker said in an e-mail. "I met with them sometime last fall. They told me
about a lot of research on cold fusion that has been done since the last
review that was conducted about 15 years ago. "They presented some data and
asked for a review of the scientific research that has been conducted."
These were from "excellent scientific institutions and have excellent
credentials," Decker wrote. "It was my personal judgment that their request
for a review was reasonable." The office will pass along the material they
provided, to reviewers with the expertise to evaluate it. He expects the
reviewers will spend a couple of days hearing presentations, then will
individually offer their opinions on the science. Brigham Young University
scientist Steven F. Jones, whose own research preceded the announcement by
Pons and Fleischmann, said of the new DOE review, "I think it's high time,
actually," adding that "there's a lot going on" in the field.
      Jones, a professor of physics and astronomy, never claimed impressive
energy outputs in his own studies. He has been looking into unusual
findings. He was the lead speaker at the conference last August in
Cambridge, Mass., where new findings were announced.
      He said he wants to make a clear distinction, and always has, "between
the nuclear work which we pioneered" and the claims of excess heat
production. "I think those are the two camps, and those camps persist to
this day, actually," he said. "I'm a bit disappointed that the physics
community has by and large overlooked this work and denigrated it," Jones
said. But some physicists expressed interest in the field, he added.
      Eugene Mallove, editor of New Energy magazine and a supporter of
fusion research since 1989, is excited about the DOE review.
      "It turns out that the phenomena we're talking about are far broader
than the original discovery," he said in a telephone interview.
      What Pons and Fleischmann came upon should not be called fusion, he
thinks. Instead, it is "a new form of energy" with mysterious nuclear
aspects.
      "There undoubtedly is fusion going on of some kind, but it was not
plasma fusion," he said. Pons and Fleischmann themselves said it was not
plasma (hot) fusion, he added. Perhaps the best term for what is happening
is "low-energy nuclear reactions," he said.
      Mallove hopes the DOE review will turn policy toward funding the new
areas of research and away from the multibillion-dollar chase after hot
fusion. The country and the world have paid dearly because the 1989
discovery was not properly followed up, he believes.
      "There should never have been a war against cold fusion, but there was
one," he said. "And it's coming to an end, a screeching halt."
      Among the discoveries Mallove cites are Japanese experiments that
seemingly border on alchemy. Elements are changing into other elements in
these experiments, he said, and the research has been published in a
prestigious Japanese peer-reviewed physics journal.
      John Huizenga, a retired professor of chemistry at the University of
Rochester, N.Y. and co-chairman of the DOE 20-member panel that reviewed
cold-fusion claims in 1989 is against having a review.
      Huizenga, author of the 1994 book "Cold Fusion: The Scientific Fiasco
of the Century," believes "it's been laid to rest, and I don't see why
they're looking at it again," he said in a telephone interview from
Rochester. "We looked into the subject very thoroughly. I don't think much
will come of it," he said of the review. Without clear-cut results, it's
"rather worthless to continue plowing that ground." A great deal of
follow-up occurred, but "there have been no positive results that have come
along since then which were worthy of establishing another committee," he
said.
      Some of the researchers who claimed they had substantiated the
findings 15 years ago are still claiming results but without any evidence,
he said.
      Pons and Fleischmann reported enormous amounts of excess energy
emanating from their apparatus, he said. If that were true, "that would
produce an equivalent amount of fusion products (such as neutrons) and those
fusion products should be very easy to see. And we do not see them. The Pons
and Fleischmann announcement was "outlandish ‹ quite different from that of
Jones," Huizenga said.
      Jones and company are "working near the background" level of nuclear
material in the environment. "It's very difficult to say one way or
another."
      If Jones' results hold up, Huizenga said, "they would be very
interesting from a scientific point of view but would have no interest in
terms of producing energy." "So one has to keep these two claims very
separate.
      "And Jones is working so near background it's hard to refute his
results," Huizenga said, "and on the other 


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Jones Beene wrote:

> Ed,
>
> > Jones, I think you are mixing protons with phonons.  The cell you describe can be argued to make excess energy, but how does this relate to making excess hydrogen?
>
> I'm not mixing protons with phonons or anything else - but first, are we clear that the Grove cell functions by combustion of zinc, and is fundamentally different from the Indian cell ? The Grove cell was brought into the discussion in order to clarify an element of the different dynamics, but apparently it didn't achieve that goal.

Well Jones, I'm not confused about the Grove cell.  It's the Indian cell and your proposed theory of how energy can be generated by a bare proton that gives me a problem.

>
>
> In the Indian cell, hydrogen is formed in proportion to current, as in normal electrolysis - but the decomposition itself is achieved at lower voltage, aided by the biased electrochemistry in place, which apparently cannot happen this way without having acid on one side of the membrane and base on the other, which is a key concept here and major departure from normal electrochemical dynamics.
>
> > I do not understand how any over unity device can directly decompose more water than is allowed by electron transfer, which is provided by the applied current.
>
> I am not suggesting that.

I think I understand what you are saying. Over unity is normally defined by comparing the electrical energy supplied to the cell and the energy obtained when the resulting H2 and O2 are combined back to water.  The energy supplied to the cell is the V * I * time.  I assume you are proposing that because the voltage is very low, the input energy is correspondingly low compared to the amount of H2+O2 produced.  However, this comparison can only be made when standard conditions exist in the cell, i.e. unit activity at both electrodes.  So, as you say, the novel feature is not having more gas produced than the electron current would allow, as I concluded.  Instead, the error is not taking into
account the nonstandard conditions in the cell.

>

>
>
> > To split water, you have to get an electron to go from the oxygen, which is forming at the anode to the hydrogen which is forming at the cathode.
>
> Not exactly. You are describing normal electrolysis with a single electrolyte.

No, I suggest this requirement exists for all electrolytic devices, as I explain below.

>
>
> > How does your mechanism move this electron?
>
> The thing to keep in mind as being radically different is that electron transfer happens on the membrane, rather than the electrodes. IOW as any proton on the positively -charged side is temporarily freed from its hydroxyl ion near the membrane interface, that hydroxyl is attracted back to the positively-charged electrode, while the proton is repulsed into the membrane then immediately attracted across that membrane by the electrons which have migrated from the negatively-charged electrode. This novel method apparently cannot happen this way without the 'double bias' of having acid on one side and base on the other, which is a key concept here and major departure from normal electrodynamics.

Let's look at the process from the electron's viewpoint.  At the cathode, an electron converts a H+ ion (the exact chemical form of the ion is unimportant) to a H atom. This electron must be replaced by one that migrates through the cell from the anode, otherwise a net charge will accumulate at the cathode.  So, an electron is transported through the solution as an ion ( the exact kind of ion is unimportant).  If a barrier exists between the two electrodes, this electron must pass through the barrier either by conventional electrical conduction or by ion migration.  Neither process has ever been shown to generate abnormal energy.  The fact that this process occurs in an electrolytic cell
changes nothing because the barrier does not know where the electron came from or where it is going.  As a result, the process in the barrier is completely independent of the electrolytic process.  Within the anode chamber, the electron is also transported by ions, although different ions than were used in the cathode chamber.  The presence of acid on one side and base on the other simply causes the activity of H+ to be much different at the two electrodes, hence provides a driving force for the decomposition process.  This is what allows the voltage to be less than the standard value.  As electrolysis proceeds, the pH will change, requiring energy to be expended when more acid and base are
added to maintain the pH difference.   If a novel energy producing process were to occur, it would be observed as extra heat energy, not as a lower cell voltage or a lower cell resistance.  To argue otherwise, you would need to show how this energy interacted directly with the electrolytic process.  Simply introducing a barrier adds nothing novel to the process.  Indeed, this is a common practice when two different chemical conditions are required at the two electrodes and the effect is well understood.

Sorry Jones, but I think you need to make the idea even clearer.

Regards,
Ed



>
>
> I hope that is clearer.
>
> Jones

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Mazatzal not all rock
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This Spirit Sol 85 microscopic photo shows white material on the right side
of the photo that resulted from the grind.  It looks like the material
froze or bound together after being ground.  The fact it fractured
indicates it contains water or some crust forming binding agent.  This is
an indication Mazatzal is no ordinary rock.  Just plain dry rock dust
doesn't bind like that.  See:

    <http://tinyurl.com/2vmdt>

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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April 1, 2004

To the Editor of Physics Today,

As long as critics of cold fusion continue to formulate their opinions 
based on a void of information about the field's progress over the past 15 
years, their comments have no value. Our interviews with nearly all the 
prominent critics, documented in "The 2004 Cold Fusion Report," revealed 
that not one, including Drs. Steven Koonin and William Happer, could cite a 
single paper that they had read on the topic over the past decade. The 
argument that cold fusion researchers will acquire credibility only when 
respected refereed journals publish their work overlooks the fact that 
these journals have categorically rejected cold fusion papers without a 
referee's scrutiny because the subject supposedly has been disproved. In 
the meantime, evidence has mounted that supports the reality of anomalous 
effects in metal deuterides. This is the conclusion of scientists working 
for the U.S. Navy, for two major oil companies and for numerous government 
and university laboratories around the world.

Dr. Allen Bard has wisely refrained from dismissing this possibility. In 
fact, as a paid consultant to the Electric Power Research Institute in 
1991, he visited SRI International (Dr. Michael McKubre's cold fusion 
laboratory) and verified the existence of excess-heat effects, which he 
documented in an unpublished report to the institute. As well, in 1993, Dr. 
Richard Garwin visited SRI for two days and documented in an unpublished 
report to the Pentagon that he could not account for his observations of 
anomalous energy by any experimental artifact (i.e., error).

Dr. Jim Decker was quoted on March 26, 2004 by the New York Times as saying 
that the Department of Energy's decision to review the evidence for cold 
fusion was made following the presentation of convincing scientific data by 
"excellent scientists with excellent credentials."  Your inaccurate 
reference to "political favors in setting up the meeting between Decker and 
cold fusion researchers" demeans both the Department of Energy and the 
scientific community by imputing prejudice that is nonsensical.

Steven B. Krivit
Nadine Winocur, Psy.D.
New Energy Times
www.newenergytimes.com
contact newenergytimes.com
Los Angeles, CA