From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 1 12:55:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l31Jt4jC028197; Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:55:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l31Jt2mI028180; Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:55:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:55:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=IbA7kW25YyZTiDWRQNahWASNrjQDhsfaZz8UhaRw5LF7tEocXluj1krJwPvjf5luFg8NjiRWHickZFB51iqv6S+1LBGbQuSrTidnelmtOgSvxmtpXUrTHJWZlzrgJ2nUZ48muxfm/v3O4yCTzP6nXIDuvC/h4yU9rHd0z1+z2yM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=VgqVXc/VCeyyzlaaxsTYwJHaw/xmbCSsLk1N33XbaLCGIL3OgomWHG0ZPqnI9XbGPAR9SP82uWVMg2JEZtNdaa5r0/uDPhulb5RIBbJA8gVP6JOJhtKjpAzXf68aWDYmxA5cjRmTwiboR/r6eUBF2t2prmTv+rRV7rlyq1KGsRU= Message-ID: <357653710704011255l4109d03s112d8fdc37aeaebb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 21:55:01 +0200 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6808_14037795.1175457301321" X-Google-Sender-Auth: c28de9ee8f61cabb Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74161 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Constructing ideal aircraft cross sections Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_6808_14037795.1175457301321 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The cross section of a fast flying machine should not be constant. It should vary in a way to minimize dispersion in the motion of the air. Someone here on the list could probably design a proper form. The problem is not very different from electrical or optical signal design where dispersion is a problem too. In these cases the signals are designed to have narrow band. Aircraft are of a bad design in these regards. Timofeev tried to balance dispersion with non linear effects but any other mean would serve as well. This could explain why Russian aircraft have a narrow waist. This is a hull shape adaption to minimize dispersion. One way to lower dispersion is to make the signal use a more narrow bandwidth. this means that the moving body should vary in diameter like the middle pictures in this image http://cnx.org/content/m0041/latest/fourier4.png By skipping the higher bandwidth components the physical situation becomes easier to handle. This is verified in observation like golf balls and sharks where the surface is corrugated. David ------=_Part_6808_14037795.1175457301321 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
The cross section of a fast flying machine should not be constant. It should vary in a way to minimize dispersion in the motion of the air. Someone here on the list could probably design a proper form. The problem is not very different from electrical or optical signal design where dispersion is a problem too. In these cases the signals are designed to have narrow band. Aircraft are of a bad design in these regards.
 
Timofeev tried to balance dispersion with non linear effects but any other mean would serve as well. This could explain why Russian aircraft have a narrow waist. This is a hull shape adaption to minimize dispersion.
 
One way to lower dispersion is to make the signal use a more narrow bandwidth. this means that the moving body should vary in diameter like the middle pictures in this image
By skipping the higher bandwidth components the physical situation becomes easier to handle. This is verified in observation like golf balls and sharks where the surface is corrugated.
 
David
 
 
------=_Part_6808_14037795.1175457301321-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 02:28:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l329SYM3019614; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 02:28:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l329SWMg019592; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 02:28:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 02:28:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=FKZfPlx5KRJ5TpI3HyPZzymUvmiQzUo8NyeGol+x9ZjW+rV0mPJSHePR+zmyciDp; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200741292829758@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 03:28:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400393e586af8fddeee30b04c15663b84c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.167 Resent-Message-ID: <5VsnBD.A.3xE._yMEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74162 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Langmuir Missed Cold Fusion Adatoms Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Had Langmuir been familiar with D2-Palladium in 1932, who knows? He's all around it in this 1932 (39 page pdf) lecture on surface phenomena http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1932/langmuir-lecture.pdf Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Had Langmuir been familiar with D2-Palladium in 1932, who knows?
 
He's all around it in this 1932 (39 page pdf) lecture on surface phenomena
 
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 03:31:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32AV6HT014572; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 03:31:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32AV5c4014562; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 03:31:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 03:31:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=mH/Qu27p5AjJCtVbqHr3dSEKQiLqWy2BbK+JKQQ4vj3S/9aC0u5NPROrrLPAKbHe; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007412103051303@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 04:30:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94078f39782095f37ce4ab576ad9d9dad34350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.164 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74163 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay. > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. > > - Jed http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm "Albuquerque: PNM and Western Water and Power Production have signed a 20-year agreement to deliver renewable energy from a new 35 megawatt biomass power plant. The plant will go into service in early 2009 and will be located in Torrance County, near Estancia, N.M. The plant will be sited on 50 acres adjacent to Tagawa Greenhouses, which will utilize waste heat from the facility to heat the greenhouse and potentially increase production". More. http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18138/page1/ "Relatively high oil prices, advances in technology, and the Bush administration's increased emphasis on renewable fuels are attracting new interest in a potentially rich source of biofuels: algae. A number of startups are now demonstrating new technology and launching large research efforts aimed at replacing hundreds of millions of gallons of fossil fuels by 2010, and much more in the future. Algae makes oil naturally. Raw algae can be processed to make biocrude, the renewable equivalent of petroleum, and refined to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and chemical feedstocks for plastics and drugs. Indeed, it can be processed at existing oil refineries to make just about anything that can be made from crude oil. This is the approach being taken by startups Solix Biofuels, based in Fort Collins, CO, and LiveFuels, based in Menlo Park, CA. Alternatively, strains of algae that produce more carbohydrates and less oil can be processed and fermented to make ethanol, with leftover proteins used for animal feed. This is one of the potential uses of algae produced by startup GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, based in Cambridge, MA." http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm "Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry. One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density — about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today. Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University." http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones Beene wrote:
 
Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay.
 
> Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. 
>
> - Jed
 
 
"Albuquerque: PNM and Western Water and Power Production have signed a 20-year agreement to deliver renewable energy from a new 35 megawatt biomass power plant. The plant will go into service in early 2009 and will be located in Torrance County, near Estancia, N.M. The plant will be sited on 50 acres adjacent to Tagawa Greenhouses, which will utilize waste heat from the facility to heat the greenhouse and potentially increase production".
 
More.
 
 
"Relatively high oil prices, advances in technology, and the Bush administration's increased emphasis on renewable fuels are attracting new interest in a potentially rich source of biofuels: algae. A number of startups are now demonstrating new technology and launching large research efforts aimed at replacing hundreds of millions of gallons of fossil fuels by 2010, and much more in the future.

Algae makes oil naturally. Raw algae can be processed to make biocrude, the renewable equivalent of petroleum, and refined to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and chemical feedstocks for plastics and drugs. Indeed, it can be processed at existing oil refineries to make just about anything that can be made from crude oil. This is the approach being taken by startups Solix Biofuels, based in Fort Collins, CO, and LiveFuels, based in Menlo Park, CA.

Alternatively, strains of algae that produce more carbohydrates and less oil can be processed and fermented to make ethanol, with leftover proteins used for animal feed. This is one of the potential uses of algae produced by startup GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, based in Cambridge, MA."

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm

"Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry.

One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density — about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today.

Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University."

http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 03:58:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32AvsKq023374; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 03:57:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Avrw4023352; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 03:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 03:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=hx0FiSSqhhUbF8sN9em5KUhh+hgmISdLA9aEQfjNxyyPU3h08VVz2eOcAVFpRqEr; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007412105737283@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 04:57:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e84a7d7dd52e2abea7d8b47e086dfbb4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.164 Resent-Message-ID: <2N1tlD.A.wsF.wGOEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74164 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.aps.com/general_info/newsrelease/newsreleases/NewsRelease_358.html November 30, 2006 Phoenix, AZ - Algae bioreactor system connected directly to smokestack of APS' Redhawk 1,040 megawatt power plant recycles greenhouse gases into renewable biofuels PHOENIX, Ariz. and Cambridge Mass. - Arizona Public Service Company (APS) and GreenFuel Technologies Corporation have announced that they have successfully recycled the carbon dioxide (CO2) from the stack gases of a power plant into transportation grade biofuels. The announcement was made at the Platts Global Energy Awards ceremonies today in New York. Using GreenFuel's Emissions-to-Biofuels™ algae bioreactor system connected to APS' 1,040 megawatt Redhawk power plant in Arlington, Ariz., GreenFuel was able to create a carbon-rich algal biomass with sufficient quality and concentration of oils and starch content to be converted into transportation-grade biodiesel and ethanol. "We estimate that this process can absorb as much as 80 percent of CO2 emissions during the daytime at a natural gas fired power plant," said GreenFuel CEO Cary Bullock. "Unlike typical agricultural biofuel feedstocks such as soybeans or corn which have a limited harvest window, algae multiply every hour can be harvested every day." ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 4/2/2007 4:31:32 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Jones Beene wrote: Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay. > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. > > - Jed http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm "Albuquerque: PNM and Western Water and Power Production have signed a 20-year agreement to deliver renewable energy from a new 35 megawatt biomass power plant. The plant will go into service in early 2009 and will be located in Torrance County, near Estancia, N.M. The plant will be sited on 50 acres adjacent to Tagawa Greenhouses, which will utilize waste heat from the facility to heat the greenhouse and potentially increase production". More. http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18138/page1/ "Relatively high oil prices, advances in technology, and the Bush administration's increased emphasis on renewable fuels are attracting new interest in a potentially rich source of biofuels: algae. A number of startups are now demonstrating new technology and launching large research efforts aimed at replacing hundreds of millions of gallons of fossil fuels by 2010, and much more in the future. Algae makes oil naturally. Raw algae can be processed to make biocrude, the renewable equivalent of petroleum, and refined to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and chemical feedstocks for plastics and drugs. Indeed, it can be processed at existing oil refineries to make just about anything that can be made from crude oil. This is the approach being taken by startups Solix Biofuels, based in Fort Collins, CO, and LiveFuels, based in Menlo Park, CA. Alternatively, strains of algae that produce more carbohydrates and less oil can be processed and fermented to make ethanol, with leftover proteins used for animal feed. This is one of the potential uses of algae produced by startup GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, based in Cambridge, MA." http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm "Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry. One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density — about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today. Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University." http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
November 30, 2006

Phoenix, AZ  -  

Algae bioreactor system connected directly to smokestack of APS' Redhawk 1,040 megawatt power plant recycles greenhouse gases into renewable biofuels

PHOENIX, Ariz. and Cambridge Mass. - Arizona Public Service Company (APS) and GreenFuel Technologies Corporation have announced that they have successfully recycled the carbon dioxide (CO2) from the stack gases of a power plant into transportation grade biofuels. The announcement was made at the Platts Global Energy Awards ceremonies today in New York. Using GreenFuel's Emissions-to-Biofuels™ algae bioreactor system connected to APS' 1,040 megawatt Redhawk power plant in Arlington, Ariz., GreenFuel was able to create a carbon-rich algal biomass with sufficient quality and concentration of oils and starch content to be converted into transportation-grade biodiesel and ethanol.

"We estimate that this process can absorb as much as 80 percent of CO2 emissions during the daytime at a natural gas fired power plant," said GreenFuel CEO Cary Bullock. "Unlike typical agricultural biofuel feedstocks such as soybeans or corn which have a limited harvest window, algae multiply every hour can be harvested every day."
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 4/2/2007 4:31:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza

Jones Beene wrote:
 
Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay.
 
> Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. 
>
> - Jed
 
 
"Albuquerque: PNM and Western Water and Power Production have signed a 20-year agreement to deliver renewable energy from a new 35 megawatt biomass power plant. The plant will go into service in early 2009 and will be located in Torrance County, near Estancia, N.M. The plant will be sited on 50 acres adjacent to Tagawa Greenhouses, which will utilize waste heat from the facility to heat the greenhouse and potentially increase production".
 
More.
 
 
"Relatively high oil prices, advances in technology, and the Bush administration's increased emphasis on renewable fuels are attracting new interest in a potentially rich source of biofuels: algae. A number of startups are now demonstrating new technology and launching large research efforts aimed at replacing hundreds of millions of gallons of fossil fuels by 2010, and much more in the future.

Algae makes oil naturally. Raw algae can be processed to make biocrude, the renewable equivalent of petroleum, and refined to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and chemical feedstocks for plastics and drugs. Indeed, it can be processed at existing oil refineries to make just about anything that can be made from crude oil. This is the approach being taken by startups Solix Biofuels, based in Fort Collins, CO, and LiveFuels, based in Menlo Park, CA.

Alternatively, strains of algae that produce more carbohydrates and less oil can be processed and fermented to make ethanol, with leftover proteins used for animal feed. This is one of the potential uses of algae produced by startup GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, based in Cambridge, MA."

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm

"Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry.

One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density — about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today.

Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University."

http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 06:00:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32D0Z3j031031; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 06:00:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32D0SgO030961; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 06:00:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 06:00:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c77526$db928c50$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:00:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C774FC.F27960D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74165 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C774FC.F27960D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When reading these reports I notice "press release" at the end. Why do = I get a mental picture of a cow with several "sucklins" feeding off her = in a pasture around Menlo Park or Cambridge? Maybe it's because our local coal fired power plant ( Sam Seymour = plant,one of 25 of the worse in USA) kept promising to install stack = cleanup for decades and now they are rumored to "retire" the unit in = favor of two new coal fired units that will "absolutely positively" have = no stack emissions... honest Injun, trust me, would I lie. highest = priced hired public relations top guns of the State of Texas. Had our local beer drinker at the Dime Box saloon run the numbers on = Bio-fuels.. yep!.. net increase in available fuel delivered after = accounting for fuel and combined energy used in producing the Bio-fuel.. = zero, zilch !!=20 Once was an itinerant peddler used to come thru town peddling cake soap = made from sawdust.. never made but one sale. Once was all it took, like = the girl that accidently spread her skirts and sat in poison ivy. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C774FC.F27960D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

 
 
When  reading these reports I notice = "press=20 release" at the end. Why do I get a mental picture of a cow with = several=20 "sucklins" feeding off her in a pasture around Menlo Park or=20 Cambridge?
 
Maybe it's because our local coal fired power = plant (=20 Sam Seymour plant,one of 25 of the worse in USA) kept promising to = install stack=20 cleanup for decades and now they are rumored to "retire" the unit in = favor of=20 two new coal fired units that will "absolutely positively" have no = stack=20 emissions... honest Injun, trust me, would I lie. highest priced hired = public=20 relations top guns of the State of Texas.
 
Had our local beer drinker at the Dime = Box saloon=20 run the numbers on Bio-fuels.. yep!.. net increase in available fuel = delivered=20 after accounting for fuel and combined energy used in producing the = Bio-fuel..=20 zero, zilch !!
 
Once was an itinerant peddler used to come = thru town=20 peddling cake soap made from sawdust.. never made but one sale. Once was = all it=20 took, like the girl that accidently spread her skirts and sat in poison=20 ivy.
 
Richard
 
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C774FC.F27960D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 07:28:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32ESbTD021361; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:28:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32ESZCx021328; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:28:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:28:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402102554.0377acf8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 10:28:30 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74166 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Attacks against cold fusion published Status: RO X-Status: The usual garbage. See: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0703300070mar30,1,1977.story?ctrack=1&cset=true I wrote to the author. A short version of this was published by the Salt Lake Tribune, which has published previous attacks: http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_5569842 I added a comment to this one, with the same content as the message to the author at the Chicago Tribune. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 07:32:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32EWQmf024400; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:32:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32EWOsr024375; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:32:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:32:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:32:17 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <80tBJB.A.u8F.4PREGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74167 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ORMES questions Status: O X-Status: I had a serendipitous event last Thursday night. I met this Chem E. He was talking about remediating the waste out of a nickle mine. I mentioned ghost gold, he replied, ORMES. I mentioned Joe Champion's theories, he mentioned LENR. He knows about BLP too. I wanted to discuss the matter further, but he has a commitment to his partners. He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as far as I can tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a researcher at the U of M is working on it. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 07:33:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32EX2Ju016730; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:33:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32EX0kx016689; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:33:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:33:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=10.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,INFO_TLD, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:32:58 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_e851fd98c49bec06d67bde2eab2196f8" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070402143851.BE73EBFD8C@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74168 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Article: Algae eyed as next biofuel source by '08 Status: O X-Status: --=_e851fd98c49bec06d67bde2eab2196f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUBJECT: Article - Algae eyed as next biofuel source by '08 The following article ought to bring warm cockles to Jones' heart. See: http://www.thenewstoday.info/2007/04/02/algae.eyed.as.next.biofuel.source.in.rp.by.08.html http://tinyurl.com/2lbcnf Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_e851fd98c49bec06d67bde2eab2196f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUBJECT: Article - Algae eyed as next biofuel source by '08

The following article ought to bring warm cockles to Jones' heart.

See:

http://www.thenewstoday.info/2007/04/02/algae.eyed.as.next.biofuel.source.i= n.rp.by.08.html

http://tinyurl.com/2lbcnf

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_e851fd98c49bec06d67bde2eab2196f8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 07:46:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32EkOrn026600; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:46:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32EkNIS026584; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:46:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:46:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=uU+G7X3TOPcIWMsIGxoCEaGd4QsMGvZjmPTfkWJ458LMKwvYPOfxz0LwoTziuqNITtVpOXXKv7oxIs/XuqM390r+v7nI/XzEWFafMWkZcpWKDXOdYm7Ksd5iBjWZJqjDgsA3p9lVyxHSf4zXBghMedxG4HnimrwWA/wdUS7kSx4= ; X-YMail-OSG: P4hoDLIVM1lJeO4V9YMdm7Q0XQqzpIMeq5igpD8Lzj8uEfzuIAunqoAhbJyILoPQNa.sreVCcA-- Message-ID: <46111739.9040704@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 07:46:17 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <410-22007412105737283@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22007412105737283@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74169 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, ... chances are, the biofuel skeptic will chose to opine that "Albuquerque" must be on Mars, since earthlings without a spell-checker could never get there from here From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 07:47:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32El9Sq013382; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:47:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32El7FL013362; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:47:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:47:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402104325.03780c38@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 10:46:50 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <410-22007412103051303@earthlink.net> References: <410-22007412103051303@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74170 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae: >Jones Beene wrote: > >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are >here to stay. > > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is another matter." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 07:57:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32EvE2r001127; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:57:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32EvCYm001102; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:57:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:57:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail0.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:57:08 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_aeacbdf9aaf39c32c19f3b8f166377fe" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070402145708.DAE1EAA5B8@mail0.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74171 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_aeacbdf9aaf39c32c19f3b8f166377fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can someone help clarify: What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equation than just supplying the little critters CO2. How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to make an economical go of this? Most of these articles seem to skim over the little fiddly bits. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae: > > >Jones Beene wrote: > > > >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are > >here to stay. > > > > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on > > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. > > As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife > grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is > another matter." > > - Jed > > --=_aeacbdf9aaf39c32c19f3b8f166377fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can someone help clarify:

What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equa= tion than just supplying the little critters CO2.

How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to ma= ke an economical go of this?

Most of these articles seem to skim over the little fiddly bits.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

>
> Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:
>
> >Jones Beene wrote:
> >
> >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are
> >here to stay.
> >
> > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on
> > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.
>
> As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife
> grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is
> another matter."
>
> - Jed
>
>
--=_aeacbdf9aaf39c32c19f3b8f166377fe-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 08:37:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32Fb85e016840; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:37:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Fb7CS016822; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:37:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:37:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qUaMLncxtIxwMZsLplwIPFMfutAE11uK8P4hoj7+Sr/fBv/uo9XzNf/tnFt40WEn; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007412153657553@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:36:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404c55e234140a96e6fc231020637fc11c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.179 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74172 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote. > > To: > Date: 4/2/2007 8:47:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza > > Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae: > > >Jones Beene wrote: > > > >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are > >here to stay. > > > > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on > > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. > > As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plant life > grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is > another matter." > Jones Beene did a Google satellite view of the area where the Colorado River enters the Gulf of California last year. Enough Algae Bloom biofuel potential to run all the trucks and cars in the USA for months, not to mention the algae bloom on Lake Meade a few years ago. Fred > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 08:42:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32FgCen019728; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:42:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32FgASV019707; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:42:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:42:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=iFUYRNiHPWLfxzXufIqVl9R96h+ApW4HChACmBH2w3jWsdSbnruqvp5UzGSW/6KH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220074121542981@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:42:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940528686b6fa3dcb8295967040b4e45c7f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.179 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74173 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Plenty of available nitrogen (NOx - SOx) and mineral ash from coal-fired power plants, plus recycle of potassium and phosphate and iron etc., from burning of the algae residues, Steven. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 4/2/2007 8:57:38 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Can someone help clarify: What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equation than just supplying the little critters CO2. How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to make an economical go of this? Most of these articles seem to skim over the little fiddly bits. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae: > > >Jones Beene wrote: > > > >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are > >here to stay. > > > > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on > > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. > > As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife > grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is > another matter." > > - Jed > > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Plenty of available nitrogen (NOx - SOx) and mineral ash from coal-fired power plants,
plus recycle of potassium and phosphate and iron etc., from burning of the algae residues, Steven.
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 4/2/2007 8:57:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza

Can someone help clarify:

What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equation than just supplying the little critters CO2.

How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to make an economical go of this?

Most of these articles seem to skim over the little fiddly bits.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

>
> Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:
>
> >Jones Beene wrote:
> >
> >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are
> >here to stay.
> >
> > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on
> > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.
>
> As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife
> grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is
> another matter."
>
> - Jed
>
>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 09:01:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32G1Ylb028024; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:01:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32G1Wjl028007; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:01:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:01:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=q2cZ6mdtO+5AXTFk4DbDDgpATciKCu/1k/KH+uof2mfw9/0vqxQqU1eyjXp2DjZh; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200741216124893@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 10:01:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402f5b7eee93ad2a28b8720932568f80eb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.179 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74174 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote. > > > Fred, > > ... chances are, the biofuel skeptic will chose to opine that > "Albuquerque" must be on Mars, since earthlings without a spell-checker > could never get there from here > Not hard to find on a map of Bernalillio County NM, Jones, once you figure out how to spell "Burn-ah-Leo". My spell checker offered Bengali and Bernoulli. :-) http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=bernalillo%20county%20nm&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF -8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 09:25:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32GP10p009805; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:25:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32GOxTf009768; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:24:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:24:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SoRrOxRYtZGnMVb/r9Y9t0OA9eMEn290f1hPzDAVTvvAew+pxtoOHiw5HkbaDUmCtzoh4TvLtsNQ8NqtsIODe4b7ZzxTyUpG7HBbB6PZG5vEnR1uki5JiBlZDgqE2qNnPqyuNYEyCtQr20ctIsAFJLdA69gf/Ru7VGP7RYiANPI= ; X-YMail-OSG: RJEcF84VM1mM3zqEjoT8wtZiOwJtQDAAwOavn.IPLNu.4ZGrTntc1FhOnUMddGHYnpUPKVYbYw-- Message-ID: <46112E55.8090303@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:24:53 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <410-22007412103051303@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402104325.03780c38@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402104325.03780c38@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6RMYYC.A.kYC.b5SEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74175 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife > grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is > another matter." That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor even want "tanks". In fact there are already plans and suggestions from NREL that almost every power plant in the USA which now burns coal or natural gas could and should be piping CO2 into an adjoining algae pond. The cost of earthmoving to create large ponds is well known and de minimis. Most power plants are located far removed from urban areas with plenty of buffer land which is perfect for such ponds. Hot water is a plus for algae, allowing full year-round growing. If every power plant could convert even half of its normal CO2 emissions into algoil, then this is a huge step forward towards eliminating Arab oil, and might actually benefit the consummer in several ways. 1) less direct CO2 emission - near neutral net emission 2) self-sufficient production of transportation fuel in the USA 3) lower net cost of electricity, when the algoil is sold a profit. It is no coincidence that the huge recent sale of power-plants in Texas, alluded to by Richard, will coincide with this shift towards algoil production by power companies (formerly oil drillers). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 09:44:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32GiBKQ019573; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:44:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Gi43Z019518; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:44:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:44:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402114052.0377acf8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:43:59 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <410-22007412153657553@earthlink.net> References: <410-22007412153657553@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74176 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Jones Beene did a Google satellite view of the area where the Colorado River >enters the Gulf of California last year. Let me amend that: my statement applied to plant life grown outdoors on land in North America, not in water. However, the huge algae blooms in water in rivers and in the ocean are caused by pollution, so let us hope we eliminate them in the future. I suppose they might be harvested in the meanwhile, but the long-term goal should be to get rid of them. >Enough Algae Bloom biofuel potential to run all the trucks and cars >in the USA for months, not to mention the algae bloom on Lake Meade >a few years ago. Well, you would have to find a way to keep the bloom there permanently, which might not be easy, and I am sure it would violate National Park rules. It might mess up the generators, too. But let's check the numbers. Lake Meade, on the Colorado River, has a surface area of 620 km^2. That's 620,000,000 square meters. It is arid, and solar energy reaching the ground in North America arid places is about 500 W at peak, or 1.5 kWh/m^2/day. This is outdoors, so we are talking about natural algae, not a bred or domesticated species or genetically altered version. (Most domesticated species are inherently weak, and cannot survive in the wild.) Also, production will be seasonal. I believe natural algae photosynthesis efficiency is . . . what? 2% overall? So that comes to: 18,600,000 kWh or 18.6 GWh. This is 86% of the output of a typical U.S. nuclear reactor (900 MW running 24 hours = 21.6 GWh). That's an impressive amount of energy to be sure, but the U.S. consumes 384.7 million gallons/day of gasoline for transportation. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html According to an on-line energy converter, that comes to 14,080,020,000 kWh, so it is too low by a factor of 800. http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm This estimate seems wrong to me. I have double checked these numbers, but I do not find the error, but this seems to indicate it would take 651 nuclear reactors to supply liquid fuel for automobiles. That's ~200 more generators of all types than the U.S. presently possesses. Looking at it another way, the Annual Energy Review Diagram 1 shows that in the U.S. nuclear plants contributes 8.15 Quads per year. There are about 100 nuclear plants. Transportation consumes 26.52 quads, so if you could magically convert nuclear electricity into transportation energy, it would take 325 reactors. Taking into account the comparative inefficiency of internal combustion engines, perhaps it would take twice as many, after all. Lake Meade is the largest man-made body of water, and we would need 800 more like that, all filled with noxious gunk. You can see from this how horribly inefficient internal combustion gasoline based transportation is. Compared to other major energy consuming technology, such as lightbulbs and power generators, automobiles are stuck about 50 to 100 years behind the times. Rather than trying to supply these ridiculous machines with liquid fuel, it makes far more sense improve the efficiency of the machines, and reduce or eliminate their need for liquid fuel. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 09:58:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32GwAi0030660; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:58:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Gw9qX030632; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:58:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:58:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402124437.035fdb38@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:57:57 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <46112E55.8090303@pacbell.net> References: <410-22007412103051303@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402104325.03780c38@mindspring.com> <46112E55.8090303@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74177 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor >even want "tanks". There are tanks in most of the prototypes now on line, such as this one: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/worlds_first_ca.php >In fact there are already plans and suggestions from NREL that >almost every power plant in the USA which now burns coal or natural >gas could and should be piping CO2 into an adjoining algae pond. In the U.S. outdoors it is too cold in winter for algae to grow naturally. (I have several ponds and streams, and I am quite familiar with the stuff.) You need to keep it warm, and exposed to sunlight. Therefore, a growing pond would have to be covered or heated with waste heat from the generator plant. I said "tanks" but I had in mind covered ponds or the plastic bags now being used for this application. There is plenty of waste heat at plants, not to mention CO2, so that is a promising technology. But you cannot have ponds thousands of hectares wide in natural conditions that are heated and that produce algae year-round in natural conditions (that is, without massive infusions of man-made heat or CO2). Algae grown at fossil fuel generator plants is probably a great idea, but it cannot begin to supply all of the liquid fuel we need for transportation (14,080 GWh/day). Naturally, it could if we were to reduce liquid fuel demand by a factor of 5 or 10, which we could easily do with plug-in hybrid cars. In a plug-in hybrid world, something like algae from fossil fuel plants would fit in perfectly, because it would reduce CO by half. That is to say, assuming the algae recovers all of the CO2 from the fossil fuel plants, it would end up using the same oxygen twice before finally converting it to CO2. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 10:49:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32HnP11028263; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 10:49:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32HnNuL028238; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 10:49:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 10:49:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402132500.0377acf8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 13:49:20 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402114052.0377acf8@mindspring.com> References: <410-22007412153657553@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402114052.0377acf8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74178 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Lake Meade, on the Colorado River, has a surface area of 620 km^2. >That's 620,000,000 square meters. It is arid, and solar energy >reaching the ground in North America arid places is about 500 W at >peak, or 1.5 kWh/m^2/day. >I believe natural algae photosynthesis efficiency is . . . what? 2% >overall? So that comes to: > >18,600,000 kWh or 18.6 GWh. This is 86% of the output of a typical >U.S. nuclear reactor . . . I could be wrong about that 2%. I am sure that algae grows better in the heated, CO2 enriched ponds next to fossil fuel plants, that Jones Beene discussed. In Chapter 16 of my book, I computed that plants grown under ideal conditions in the Japanese food factories convert as much as 15% of the light energy into food. This is light in a narrow wavelength of PAR, and the atmosphere is enriched with extra CO2. I doubt that a heated outdoor pond -- even one supercharged with CO2 -- is as good as the food factory, so I suppose algae is somewhere between 2 and 15%. It would be way better per square-meter than using Lake Meade or some other unheated natural body of water. However, if you want to tap solar energy, I think it would be more efficient and cost-effective to make a 620 km^2 solar-electric generator plant collection space. This is ~20% efficient, so it would be equivalent to ~8 U.S. nuclear plants. You could put ~100 km^2 near Las Vegas, and another ~200 km^2 near Los Angeles, and you would eliminate their daytime demand for electricity, which is high because of air conditioning. >Transportation consumes 26.52 quads, so if you could magically >convert nuclear electricity into transportation energy, it would >take 325 reactors. I meant convert it into gasoline directly. You can use the nuclear electricity in railroad commuter trains or plug-in hybrid cars, and these are far more efficient than gasoline-powered internal combustion engine-only cars. I suppose ~200 standard U.S. nukes that produce 16 quads per year would be roughly enough for a fleet of hybrid plug-in cars and trucks. You still need liquid fuel for long distance transportation, so you use ~200 nukes for electricity plus fuel from the algae grown at the ~250 existing fossil fuel plants (nuke equivalent; actually we have more than 250). You might use waste heat from the nuke plants, but there is no ready source of enriched CO2 next to them. No fossil fuel, and they tend to be far from cities, so no garbage or sewage either. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 11:13:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32IDdMK030993; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:13:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32IDY31030948; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:13:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:13:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402140014.037cfeb0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:13:30 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402132500.0377acf8@mindspring.com> References: <410-22007412153657553@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402114052.0377acf8@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402132500.0377acf8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74179 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 41% efficient solar cells Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >However, if you want to tap solar energy, I think it would be more >efficient and cost-effective to make a 620 km^2 solar-electric >generator plant collection space. This is ~20% efficient, so it >would be equivalent to ~8 U.S. nuclear plants. In December 2006, Boeing-Spectrolab announced a 40.7% efficient cell that costs $3,000 per kW of capacity. That's remarkable. I did not know these things were so advanced. See: http://www.energy.gov/news/4503.htm Ed Storms has emphasized that it would be better to reduce the cost per watt of solar cells, rather than increase efficiency. This one appears to do both. This kind of conversion efficiency is far ahead of anything that can be achieved with plant-life photosynthesis. That would give you the equivalent of 16 nuclear plants in the 620 km^2 desert area. That's a 25 km square. There are plenty of stretches of vacant land that large in U.S. desert areas. It is a shame solar energy is not available at night. The Correas claimed that the solar energy they tap comes right through the earth. I asked them why, in that case, they did not try testing it underground. They insisted on muddling up the test by running their devices in sunlight, which they did not measure, thus mixing the two putative energy sources together. This is like running a cold fusion cell with a lit candle underneath the cell, without even measuring the candle flame energy. I suspect that their results are entirely caused by ordinary solar energy. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 11:18:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32II9BB000753; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:18:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32II7sl000730; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:18:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:18:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402141539.035fdb38@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:17:08 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74180 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe Status: O X-Status: Here is an AP story describing the latest attempt=20 to bully cold fusion researchers. I suspect=20 someone like Robert Park is behind this. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe Associated Press INDIANAPOLIS =96 Purdue University has become the=20 target of a congressional inquiry nearly two=20 months after a university panel cleared=20 allegations of research misconduct against a=20 scientist who claimed to have produced nuclear fusion in tabletop= experiments. A congressional subcommittee has given Purdue=20 until Thursday to turn over copies of its=20 findings into the allegations raised last year=20 against Rusi Taleyarkhan, a professor of nuclear engineering. Purdue announced Feb. 7 that an =93internal=20 inquiry=94 found no evidence supporting those=20 allegations and =93that no further investigation of=20 the allegations is warranted.=94 School officials, citing a Purdue confidentiality=20 policy, have declined to discuss what the inquiry found. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 11:21:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32ILGIw002550; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:21:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32ILGUx002536; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:21:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:21:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=bB+wQ6vOMV4c2mgWab+k0UVxICNDLCloa3DUK+hXfdZ0QvBsSV32MFGTJwP6HM1Q; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200741218211435@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:21:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940548883790f7f5aa1b1b793428802a449350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74181 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pollution, Bloom, or not, Jed, all of the water from watershed runoff contains algae. Figure out how much algae is available per unit volume after you've allowed for feeding aquatic life and available natural plant nutrients. Cost effective harvesting using stream (gravity) flow since maximum production is near the surface, doesn't seem intractable. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Jed Rothwell > To: > Date: 4/2/2007 10:44:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Jones Beene did a Google satellite view of the area where the Colorado River > >enters the Gulf of California last year. > > Let me amend that: my statement applied to plant life grown outdoors > on land in North America, not in water. > > However, the huge algae blooms in water in rivers and in the ocean > are caused by pollution, so let us hope we eliminate them in the > future. I suppose they might be harvested in the meanwhile, but the > long-term goal should be to get rid of them. > > > >Enough Algae Bloom biofuel potential to run all the trucks and cars > >in the USA for months, not to mention the algae bloom on Lake Meade > >a few years ago. > > Well, you would have to find a way to keep the bloom there > permanently, which might not be easy, and I am sure it would violate > National Park rules. It might mess up the generators, too. But let's > check the numbers. > > Lake Meade, on the Colorado River, has a surface area of 620 km^2. > That's 620,000,000 square meters. It is arid, and solar energy > reaching the ground in North America arid places is about 500 W at > peak, or 1.5 kWh/m^2/day. > > This is outdoors, so we are talking about natural algae, not a bred > or domesticated species or genetically altered version. (Most > domesticated species are inherently weak, and cannot survive in the > wild.) Also, production will be seasonal. I believe natural algae > photosynthesis efficiency is . . . what? 2% overall? So that comes to: > > 18,600,000 kWh or 18.6 GWh. This is 86% of the output of a typical > U.S. nuclear reactor (900 MW running 24 hours = 21.6 GWh). That's an > impressive amount of energy to be sure, but the U.S. consumes 384.7 > million gallons/day of gasoline for transportation. See: > > http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html > > According to an on-line energy converter, that comes to > 14,080,020,000 kWh, so it is too low by a factor of 800. > > http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm > > This estimate seems wrong to me. I have double checked these numbers, > but I do not find the error, but this seems to indicate it would take > 651 nuclear reactors to supply liquid fuel for automobiles. That's > ~200 more generators of all types than the U.S. presently possesses. > Looking at it another way, the Annual Energy Review Diagram 1 shows > that in the U.S. nuclear plants contributes 8.15 Quads per year. > There are about 100 nuclear plants. Transportation consumes 26.52 > quads, so if you could magically convert nuclear electricity into > transportation energy, it would take 325 reactors. Taking into > account the comparative inefficiency of internal combustion engines, > perhaps it would take twice as many, after all. > > Lake Meade is the largest man-made body of water, and we would need > 800 more like that, all filled with noxious gunk. > > You can see from this how horribly inefficient internal combustion > gasoline based transportation is. Compared to other major energy > consuming technology, such as lightbulbs and power generators, > automobiles are stuck about 50 to 100 years behind the times. Rather > than trying to supply these ridiculous machines with liquid fuel, it > makes far more sense improve the efficiency of the machines, and > reduce or eliminate their need for liquid fuel. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 11:28:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32ISSOR024754; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:28:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32ISQ1w024718; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:28:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:28:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46114BF8.5030405@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:31:20 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402141539.035fdb38@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402141539.035fdb38@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74182 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This makes no sense at all. The sonofusion work has no hope of being practical and the issue of reproducibility is trivial. Why would Congress get involved? If the oil industry were worried about cold fusion, many methods much closer to a practical device than this one are being investigated. Why are they not being targeted. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Here is an AP story describing the latest attempt to bully cold fusion > researchers. I suspect someone like Robert Park is behind this. > > - Jed > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe > > Associated Press > > INDIANAPOLIS – Purdue University has become the target of a > congressional inquiry nearly two months after a university panel cleared > allegations of research misconduct against a scientist who claimed to > have produced nuclear fusion in tabletop experiments. > > A congressional subcommittee has given Purdue until Thursday to turn > over copies of its findings into the allegations raised last year > against Rusi Taleyarkhan, a professor of nuclear engineering. > > Purdue announced Feb. 7 that an “internal inquiry” found no evidence > supporting those allegations and “that no further investigation of the > allegations is warranted.” > > School officials, citing a Purdue confidentiality policy, have declined > to discuss what the inquiry found. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 11:41:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32Ierkt032692; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:40:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Ienss032634; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:40:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:40:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=SEskUfo7/D0YCVnTLUMT6jajshCZDPyIe2wX0n4BovNLn0v9FwpHhMkmJZvhYroF; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007412184038940@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:40:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403b136fbb271b4794dc6f5ffb1f373aaf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74183 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote. > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife > > grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is > > another matter." > > > > That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor even > want "tanks". > > In fact there are already plans and suggestions from NREL that almost > every power plant in the USA which now burns coal or natural gas could > and should be piping CO2 into an adjoining algae pond. > Don't leave out waste heat from nuclear power plants heating algae ponds, Jones. Plenty of "sequestered" CO2 to pipe to them, and it would help reduce cooling tower water usage, too. Fred > > The cost of earthmoving to create large ponds is well known and de > minimis. Most power plants are located far removed from urban areas with > plenty of buffer land which is perfect for such ponds. Hot water is a > plus for algae, allowing full year-round growing. If every power plant > could convert even half of its normal CO2 emissions into algoil, then > this is a huge step forward towards eliminating Arab oil, and might > actually benefit the consummer in several ways. > > 1) less direct CO2 emission - near neutral net emission > 2) self-sufficient production of transportation fuel in the USA > 3) lower net cost of electricity, when the algoil is sold a profit. > > It is no coincidence that the huge recent sale of power-plants in Texas, > alluded to by Richard, will coincide with this shift towards algoil > production by power companies (formerly oil drillers). > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 11:51:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32IpM0S019631; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:51:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32IpLE9019620; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:51:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:51:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402143056.036c6a68@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:50:36 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <410-2200741218211435@earthlink.net> References: <410-2200741218211435@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74184 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Pollution, Bloom, or not, Jed, all of the water from watershed runoff >contains algae. Yes. Way too much. We should be trying to reduce that. >Figure out how much algae is available per unit volume after you've >allowed for feeding aquatic life and available natural plant >nutrients. Cost effective >harvesting using stream (gravity) flow since maximum production is near the >surface, doesn't seem intractable. This sounds like a large scale project that may hurt the ecosystem, especially if we curb the pollution that causes algae blooms, and reduce the amounts to natural levels. The amount you should leave to feed aquatic life is easily computed: it is exactly the amount that nature has been providing for millions of years before we got into the picture. Species are evolved to eat that much. As soon as we get back of the picture and stop polluting the water, we should also stop harvesting the stuff. We should also stop harvesting wild fish, by the way. We should only eat domesticated ones grown by us. In other words, it is not a good idea to remove millions of tons of food from the ecosystem food chain for any reason, whether the food will be eaten by fish (algae) or by people in Mexico (corn). I think it would be far better to tap solar energy with less invasive devices, such as wind turbines and solar-thermal collectors. Again, the reason boils down to the fact that natural photosynthesis is inefficient; it takes a lot of sunlight to produce a little chemical fuel. The latest solar cells are 400 times more efficient per square meter than the best naturally occurring photosynthetic conversion. Therefore, they will have a smaller impact on the ecosystem. Unnatural photosynthesis in a heated pond charged with CO2 from a fossil fuel plant is an entirely different story. It is far better to start with, and you might improve it with domesticated species of algae. I have read there are some that might be far more efficient. U.C. Berkeley has engineered a stain that might be 100,000 times better at producing hydrogen than natural algae. See: http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/02/70273 Domesticated species are often more efficient, but as I said previously there is an inevitable trade-off: they cannot survive in the wild. They are weak. For example, in food crops, we redirect most of their metabolism to producing grain, which weakens their natural defenses and other adoptions. If you plant human bred corn (maize) in the middle of a meadow in the woods, it attracts too many herbivores, and the seeds fall so thickly around the plant the next generation does not survive. Natural corn -- the type that was first domesticated by native Americans -- had smaller cobs with fewer grains. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 11:55:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32ItVqf021398; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:55:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32ItTN5021375; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:55:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 11:55:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402145129.036f5908@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:54:06 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <410-22007412184038940@earthlink.net> References: <410-22007412184038940@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1kkSFC.A.7NF.hGVEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74185 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Don't leave out waste heat from nuclear power plants heating algae ponds, >Jones. Plenty of "sequestered" CO2 to pipe to them, and it would >help reduce cooling tower water usage, too. Where is "sequestered" CO2 near a nuclear plant? As I said, they build these things far from cities, and also far from fossil fuel plants. Or are you suggesting they should pipe CO2 from a fossil fuel plant a few hundred kilometers away? That might work. I suppose it does not take much energy to pump the gas. I must say though, I would much prefer to see them tear down the coal-fueled plants and build nuclear plants or wind turbines. I suppose you can pump CO2 from natural gas-fired plants, which will be with us for a long time to come, alas. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 12:05:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32J4x7T028387; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:04:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32J4vIK028366; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:04:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:04:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402145942.03753010@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 15:04:54 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe In-Reply-To: <46114BF8.5030405@ix.netcom.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402141539.035fdb38@mindspring.com> <46114BF8.5030405@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4arM7C.A.K7G.ZPVEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74186 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >This makes no sense at all. The sonofusion work has no hope of being >practical and the issue of reproducibility is trivial. Why would >Congress get involved? If the oil industry were worried about cold fusion . . . I do not think this has anything to do with the oil industry. Robert Park and other enemies of cold fusion have frequently spoken out against sonofusion. They think it is another form of cold fusion. You have to realize, they have read nothing and they know nothing about either field of research, so they get the two confused. Alternatively, this might have been engineered by Taleyarkhan's jealous academic rivals, who were the ones behind the original witchhunt at Purdue. They believe that sonofusion exists, but they want the credit for it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 12:18:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32JHnJl027700; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:17:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32JHkja027671; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:17:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:17:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=TwzsvLl1IkLMZ+ZI6nMuyyqfHCUylZB4fLgFqPrInG80Cwe2KLWEJTt6dkBMXHjY; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007412191732804@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:17:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402b74546b5b3df4e7848c6b1ce53ce13a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74187 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote. > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Pollution, Bloom, or not, Jed, all of the water from watershed runoff > >contains algae. > > Yes. Way too much. We should be trying to reduce that. > > > >Figure out how much algae is available per unit volume after you've > >allowed for feeding aquatic life and available natural plant > >nutrients. Cost effective > >harvesting using stream (gravity) flow since maximum production is near the > >surface, doesn't seem intractable. > > This sounds like a large scale project that may hurt the ecosystem, > especially if we curb the pollution that causes algae blooms, and > reduce the amounts to natural levels. The amount you should leave to > feed aquatic life is easily computed: it is exactly the amount that > nature has been providing for millions of years before we got into > the picture. Species are evolved to eat that much. > No problem there, Jed, we switch to eating fish and clams/mussells which frees up corn for E-85 production. :-) > > As soon as we get > back of the picture and stop polluting the water, we should also stop > harvesting the stuff. > Yes, otherwise it ends up in the ocean and rots. > > We should also stop harvesting wild fish, by the way. We should only > eat domesticated ones grown by us. > > In other words, it is not a good idea to remove millions of tons of > food from the ecosystem food chain for any reason, whether the food > will be eaten by fish (algae) or by people in Mexico (corn). I think > it would be far better to tap solar energy with less invasive > devices, such as wind turbines and solar-thermal collectors. > > Again, the reason boils down to the fact that natural photosynthesis > is inefficient; it takes a lot of sunlight to produce a little > chemical fuel. The latest solar cells are 400 times more efficient > per square meter than the best naturally occurring photosynthetic > conversion. Therefore, they will have a smaller impact on the ecosystem. > > Unnatural photosynthesis in a heated pond charged with CO2 from a > fossil fuel plant is an entirely different story. It is far better to > start with, and you might improve it with domesticated species of > algae. I have read there are some that might be far more efficient. > U.C. Berkeley has engineered a stain that might be 100,000 times > better at producing hydrogen than natural algae. See: > http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/02/70273 > Blue-Green Algae is practically everywhere (airborne) as is CO2. As long as the water is warm and nutrients, NOx, and sunlight adequate you can see the O2 bubbles come off as the algae proliferate in a container. > > Domesticated species are often more efficient, but as I said > previously there is an inevitable trade-off: they cannot survive in > the wild. They are weak. For example, in food crops, we redirect most > of their metabolism to producing grain, which weakens their natural > defenses and other adoptions. If you plant human bred corn (maize) in > the middle of a meadow in the woods, it attracts too many herbivores, > and the seeds fall so thickly around the plant the next generation > does not survive. Natural corn -- the type that was first > domesticated by native Americans -- had smaller cobs with fewer grains. > Tis far better to plant Cannabis in the woods, I hear, even though it's agains the Law I fear... Unanimous. (at Berkely?) Must be a full moon out there. Fred. > Fred > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 12:26:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32JQLne000915; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:26:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32JQKOf000895; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:26:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:26:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NtovXhnvRT46hvhuZq0WPNoGCnA15bJqn3hVw34c00K3P5WmdAOhOpU4hsBzNM0w; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007412192618810@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:26:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94098ba5ece3e2408f6efc104a32fb570ad350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74188 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote. > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Don't leave out waste heat from nuclear power plants heating algae ponds, > >Jones. Plenty of "sequestered" CO2 to pipe to them, and it would > >help reduce cooling tower water usage, too. > > Where is "sequestered" CO2 near a nuclear plant? As I said, they > build these things far from cities, and also far from fossil fuel > plants. Or are you suggesting they should pipe CO2 from a fossil fuel > plant a few hundred kilometers away? That might work. I suppose it > does not take much energy to pump the gas. > That 1040 Megawatt Arizona Public Service natural gas fueled power plant is "about 50 miles west of Phoenix. So is the 3,900 Megawatt Palo Verde Nuke Plant. CO2 from ethanol plants and other sources is easy to compress to liquid for transport by truck, rail or pipeline (even as a mix with natural gas in off season). > > I must say though, I would much prefer to see them tear down the > coal-fueled plants and build nuclear plants or wind turbines. I > suppose you can pump CO2 from natural gas-fired plants, which will be > with us for a long time to come, alas. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 12:44:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32Ji4uZ017677; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:44:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Ji2mQ017659; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:44:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:44:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402153204.037fbbb0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 15:38:11 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <410-22007412191732804@earthlink.net> References: <410-22007412191732804@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74189 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > As soon as we get > > back of the picture and stop polluting the water, we should also stop > > harvesting the stuff. > > >Yes, otherwise it ends up in the ocean and rots. If so, that is what it has been doing for millions of years, and that's what it is "supposed" to do. You can bet that if we interfere on a scale large enough to satisfy a significant fraction of our energy needs, we will also disrupt some aspect of the ecosystem, starting with the species that cause the rotting. In other words, the scale of human energy production is simply too big for natural photosynethic processes. Not too big for wind or direct solar, or perhaps geothermal. Some natural energy sources are bigger than others. But I would prefer to see us use an unnatural source such as fission or cold fusion. As a rule, I think it is better for us and for the ecology if we step out of the loop, and no longer try to depend on nature for our needs. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 13:35:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32KZ1kx004994; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:35:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32KZ0qx004974; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:35:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:35:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402162532.0374b620@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:34:54 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74190 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check. Status: O X-Status: I use mainly the Firefox browser version 2.0.0.3. I recently installed Windows Internet Explorer 7, which is an abomination. I need to use occasionally for websites that do not work otherwise. Just now I tried to download a paper from LENR-CANR.org. It gave me the following message: "This website wants to run the following add-on: IE PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon Corp. (unverified publisher)'. If you trust the website and the add-on and want to allow it to run click here . . ." This happens with papers converted recently using the program PDF plus!, and also with papers compiled years ago using the original Acrobat program. If anyone else here is using Internet Explorer 7, or some other version, please try to download a paper and let me know if it gives you this message. I have never heard of "PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon Corp." I hope this is not some sort of virus that has invaded the website, and I hope this warning does not frighten off readers. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 13:52:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32KpnNo011516; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:51:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Kpm3U011503; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:51:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:51:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402165010.03803f20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:51:44 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check. CANCEL In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402162532.0374b620@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402162532.0374b620@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74191 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cancel alarm. Reset. It seems to happen with any Acrobat file, anywhere on the web. It must be an interaction with Internet Explorer and PDF Plus! IE is a can of worms. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 13:58:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32KwoID017034; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:58:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Kwnnx017011; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:58:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:58:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=S22SSe6SZM4UVOw+RDpG7DoMacH2CCRCuou2ToqmjYaKKV8HxyQr6akJjAc0slme1Ho+SxOte11oE/lbXEgbmy9K5+2mYC7QEpAmj8WehId5ctgQdpYXuPtiDedJufLnFXzoPdlrbgcA6vx8KlCYZ027Ljo4lzF8I5BbGvn3RcE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jjB+6EAO8ipDz4An/Nr4r/1isQOiODyGOHkSkR6BeGZ+O+Yn7IgFacEpDZ8ny45VPPmJbufhik8qlo7jGDqTlwrPb16e5hQXeNc2CCqNVdjrmzgrSUUrwMKFqLbwZEKD9zE9nh5yuif4IdDbEwBicQDfFN4epQwVdm2vl+BjRoQ= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:58:49 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402124437.035fdb38@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22007412103051303@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402104325.03780c38@mindspring.com> <46112E55.8090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402124437.035fdb38@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74192 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: not in all of the us. a lot of empty ground is here in the southwest, and algae will grow year round. Also, large ponds that are heated... that waste heat goes straight up, and will change wehather patterns. On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > >That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor > >even want "tanks". > > There are tanks in most of the prototypes now on line, such as this one: > > http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/worlds_first_ca.php > > > >In fact there are already plans and suggestions from NREL that > >almost every power plant in the USA which now burns coal or natural > >gas could and should be piping CO2 into an adjoining algae pond. > > In the U.S. outdoors it is too cold in winter for algae to grow > naturally. (I have several ponds and streams, and I am quite familiar > with the stuff.) You need to keep it warm, and exposed to sunlight. > Therefore, a growing pond would have to be covered or heated with > waste heat from the generator plant. I said "tanks" but I had in mind > covered ponds or the plastic bags now being used for this > application. There is plenty of waste heat at plants, not to mention > CO2, so that is a promising technology. But you cannot have ponds > thousands of hectares wide in natural conditions that are heated and > that produce algae year-round in natural conditions (that is, without > massive infusions of man-made heat or CO2). > > Algae grown at fossil fuel generator plants is probably a great idea, > but it cannot begin to supply all of the liquid fuel we need for > transportation (14,080 GWh/day). Naturally, it could if we were to > reduce liquid fuel demand by a factor of 5 or 10, which we could > easily do with plug-in hybrid cars. In a plug-in hybrid world, > something like algae from fossil fuel plants would fit in perfectly, > because it would reduce CO by half. That is to say, assuming the > algae recovers all of the CO2 from the fossil fuel plants, it would > end up using the same oxygen twice before finally converting it to CO2. > > - Jed > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 14:12:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32LBmlo002067; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:11:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32LBjei002030; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:11:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:11:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402170523.037e36d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 17:11:40 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: References: <410-22007412103051303@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402104325.03780c38@mindspring.com> <46112E55.8090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402124437.035fdb38@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74193 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >Also, large ponds that are heated... that waste heat goes straight >up, and will change weather patterns. Well, we are only talking about doing this with waste heat from generators, and that already goes straight up. It is mostly released in the form of steam from the large conical cooling towers that many people mistakenly believe are nuclear reactors. (By the way, this steam kills millions of birds, many more than wind turbines do.) Still, this is a point well taken, and it might be a good idea to reduce evaporation from ponds, especially in arid places. In the photos of algae production in power plants that I saw recently, the algae was grown in large plastic bags exposed to sunlight. This would prevent evaporation. I cannot find those photos, but they are out there . . . somewhere. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 14:12:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32LC0hK002192; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:12:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32LBsj2002133; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:11:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:11:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c7756b$8931ef10$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402162532.0374b620@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:11:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74194 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check. Status: O X-Status: Jed, I just test downloaded a paper by Ed Storms and another by Schwinger both usng "save target as" and directly opening them in IE ver 7.0.5730. No problem - no messages like yours. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 14:15:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32LFFpk022705; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:15:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32LFB3A022642; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:15:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:15:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4611730E.1020003@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 15:18:06 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check. References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402162532.0374b620@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402162532.0374b620@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74195 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since you mention this problem, I would like to remind those who own a PC that all of these problems can be eliminated by getting an iMac that runs both system OS-X and Windows. The Mac can be used on the internet with Netscape, which avoids most of the nasties and the Windows version can be used for everything else, if you insist. Microsoft is not the only game in town anymore. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > I use mainly the Firefox browser version 2.0.0.3. I recently installed > Windows Internet Explorer 7, which is an abomination. I need to use > occasionally for websites that do not work otherwise. Just now I tried > to download a paper from LENR-CANR.org. It gave me the following message: > > "This website wants to run the following add-on: IE PDFPlus OCX from > 'Zeon Corp. (unverified publisher)'. If you trust the website and the > add-on and want to allow it to run click here . . ." > > This happens with papers converted recently using the program PDF plus!, > and also with papers compiled years ago using the original Acrobat > program. If anyone else here is using Internet Explorer 7, or some other > version, please try to download a paper and let me know if it gives you > this message. I have never heard of "PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon Corp." > > I hope this is not some sort of virus that has invaded the website, and > I hope this warning does not frighten off readers. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 14:29:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32LTSmY027519; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:29:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32LTRV3027505; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:29:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:29:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WFwMligSOWfXkzaDgeVmhcGAzyjTD/KgHIRK6TfmQqGgH63F3qrbD7zvOHTMq85nmkNY3wENiP6oloGapi41QdMVEzYhIC1JCHBIVE9ZTuUuUUzcCbZgDRuUwZoi2rTw7z55fqXEe9tj8iniGU7QxA8f7m//a+NaPBvWYQC5LhE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bXOohMuTmWu37aAbSAaVO6wqQq/fKRU/3IVTK+wbIqlCxPN5JrnAf3ghJS0q9gdTfx8MVxela1JJEFiYGivRFVL9qheo5BjP+W+HvQzutoTrFVzDbKurkqd+e0beS735D8LYGTTShxihImf8IshXXjP1IpiX3dXAzLHyySomwmE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:29:27 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402170523.037e36d8@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <410-22007412103051303@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402104325.03780c38@mindspring.com> <46112E55.8090303@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402124437.035fdb38@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402170523.037e36d8@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <_DgkxD.A.ttG.3WXEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74196 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: True, however, in terms of weather patterns, a small temperature over a large area has more effect than large but concentrated. see el nino. On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > >Also, large ponds that are heated... that waste heat goes straight > >up, and will change weather patterns. > > Well, we are only talking about doing this with waste heat from > generators, and that already goes straight up. It is mostly released > in the form of steam from the large conical cooling towers that many > people mistakenly believe are nuclear reactors. (By the way, this > steam kills millions of birds, many more than wind turbines do.) > > Still, this is a point well taken, and it might be a good idea to > reduce evaporation from ponds, especially in arid places. In the > photos of algae production in power plants that I saw recently, the > algae was grown in large plastic bags exposed to sunlight. This would > prevent evaporation. I cannot find those photos, but they are out > there . . . somewhere. > > - Jed > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 14:34:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32LYkJl029714; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:34:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32LYiFj029683; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:34:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:34:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402171154.038158a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 17:34:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74197 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan Status: O X-Status: In recent weeks, Japanese television and newspapers have reported that over the past 29 years there have been as many as 97 accidents and near-accidents at 12 Japanese nuclear power plants that were covered up. The most severe of these were criticality accidents that occurred when the control rods fall down to the bottom of the container in a particular type of reactor. Apparently the mechanism that raises and lowers the rods sometimes loses its grip, and the rods fall out of the core. One incident lasted for 37 hours. The government is now talking about "tightening up oversight" and "preventing future occurrences" but until yesterday there was no mention of fining the companies or punishing the people who participated in the cover up. I think that if something like this happened in the US, several top executives would be taken away in handcuffs in the so-called "perp-walk." All this began when there was an accident recently that was not covered up. A government accident investigation panel was convened, and somehow the investigation got out of hand and revealed more than they intended. I say this because reporters found out that a government official who is one of the principal members of the panel knew about some of the incidents for the last 29 years, and did nothing. There has not been much about this in the U.S. newspapers. There has been a lot of irresponsible behavior in Japanese society lately, such as these coverups and Aneha incident in 2005. Aneha is an architect who designed many buildings without enough supports to withstand a magnitude 5 earthquake. One structural engineer interviewed on the news looked at the blueprints and photos and said, "Never mind an earthquake; frankly, I am surprised they have not fallen down already." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_Accounting_Statement_Forgery_Problem - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 14:51:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32Lp5iN006179; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:51:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Lp3sQ006159; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:51:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:51:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402174322.03749e70@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 17:51:01 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402171154.038158a0@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402171154.038158a0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74198 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah. The story has progressed since I last heard about it. They have now revealed 97 incidents at nuclear power plants, 128 incidents at thermal (fossil fuel) plants, and 81 at hydroelectric plants. Those power company managers have been busy little bees all these years. Here are some recent reports in English: A comment about the privatization of Los Alamos and how it relates to this cover up. I do not see the connection but this is pretty funny: http://lanl-the-corporate-story.blogspot.com/2007/03/criticality-accidents-in-japan-and-lanl.html "This blog is a follow-on to "LANL: The Real Story." Privatization at LANL is a fait accompli, soon to befall LLNL. The real content will be up to you, the thoughtful Readers, including those from soon-to-be quagmired LLNL. . . ." The latest from the Yomiuri: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070330TDY04001.htm http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070331TDY02010.htm '100 workers present at criticality accident' The No. 2 reactor at Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power station went critical in October 1984, as about 100 workers were still within the reactor container during a regular checkup, it was revealed Friday. Ten electric power firms, Japan Atomic Power Co. (JAPC) and Electric Power Development Co. reported to the government Friday of 306 cases of cover-ups of problems and data fabrications at nuclear, thermal and hydro-electric power stations throughout the nation. According to the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency of the Economy, Trade and Industry Ministry, the 12 companies reported 97 cases at nuclear power stations, 128 cases at thermal power stations and 81 cases at hydraulic power stations in their reports detailing cases relating to cover-ups of troubles and data fabrication. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 15:28:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32MS7u1014697; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 15:28:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32MS1vY014643; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 15:28:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 15:28:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402180754.037fbbb0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:27:57 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402174322.03749e70@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402171154.038158a0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402174322.03749e70@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74199 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is astounding. The Japanese version of the Yomiuri article includes some details not translated into English, which are even worse. Japanese text here: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20070330it12.htm Last para, translated by me: "Included in the 306 incidents listed in the report are several cases from different power stations in which operators repeated the same fraudulent accounting numerous times, and these are each counted as one case. The actual number of incidents in which rules and regulations were bent and inappropriate procedures were followed probably numbers in the thousands, at least." Japan is a nation prone to cover-ups and obscurity, but this scandal takes the cake. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 15:40:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32Mdsua021513; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 15:39:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32MdslR021501; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 15:39:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 15:39:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Reply-To:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=qH8c/n4GQbTYAb6skHCKmZgjQBiC8jY2K6wW2WYhNeYoMz4OGrhpAVUFpfaW3M2YMZuq1RTvIJqyCoomOfTCn2lrvba/7CZxRpTbelCPQ5/QZfowNBCVHRVcVT8G3iyGXLBQsByTiFOyz6gmvamEuPAXMviElpzbYnXX/TddkLo= ; X-YMail-OSG: 4ROD9xAVM1lJVrVyDovJICMcgXzGrm7YP7SDia21bPFDpQRXdjhmkWRD5vU.EdKGILHFtFvc6Q-- Message-ID: <004201c77577$d3d0e830$0201a8c0@valued99a9efb0> Reply-To: "norman horwood" From: "norman horwood" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402162532.0374b620@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 23:39:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74200 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check. Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, I have d/l'd several papers using WIE 7, and there was no problem. Norman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:34 PM Subject: [Vo]: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check. >I use mainly the Firefox browser version 2.0.0.3. I recently installed >Windows Internet Explorer 7, which is an abomination. I need to use >occasionally for websites that do not work otherwise. Just now I tried to >download a paper from LENR-CANR.org. It gave me the following message: > > "This website wants to run the following add-on: IE PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon > Corp. (unverified publisher)'. If you trust the website and the add-on and > want to allow it to run click here . . ." > > This happens with papers converted recently using the program PDF plus!, > and also with papers compiled years ago using the original Acrobat > program. If anyone else here is using Internet Explorer 7, or some other > version, please try to download a paper and let me know if it gives you > this message. I have never heard of "PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon Corp." > > I hope this is not some sort of virus that has invaded the website, and I > hope this warning does not frighten off readers. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 16:42:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32NgIje020416; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:42:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32NgF7a020388; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:42:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:42:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VxaW7x39ZpJpvNsvfVaTtwkXnbbi3m2h6/IGU2eSdTri8IDbeKZGRh5t+5261aeSW3tDfGbyPeXvKxfMMH2fZoIDyyaSbWbamfAYNPtQ3cxrZGnCcqX6YsRRZmr0GSpzvC3Sn4rkt4HOwzZ4xIXPmxIboPKQ9B/7mYYUYC/QXOM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Iycw7GZeFp6fs7QtbSqOHpszWrgqUaTP8b+CR+Q3HBYNwq85Swo8YO2W8OMU3kqSOPNfuQqCppvjbSDHlntzORjBZ5g6C14B+qPKsuGCqaXMZKElibCiiZE2RZjchCyRPJMISOfqS9A76lIOorB20bH7IvG4sR4oBYZrvJ5DbcA= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:42:14 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402145942.03753010@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402141539.035fdb38@mindspring.com> <46114BF8.5030405@ix.netcom.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402145942.03753010@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74201 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I do not think this has anything to do with the oil industry. A spring wind blows on the house of cards. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 16:45:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32Njk4x025103; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:45:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Njfm1025047; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:45:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:45:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rSVY8yYe4uO3glkDu7XVOmQTpjA7OOEntWaAG2bmGLguqByxBE4Z8jQyRmtSY5Xh8v6I8egn2smjuGKiFVvJ7cLPDumvvYPEn58qlGDyXXgB9NRzhAKhYGfgJ0rjn+8LkKZo6n72AdEc48rXyjDm/R4Lj87esOGGt428t8gMbRU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=K8uSiG+Jyfz8Hrn3/wO5VblOPiOh3tG/7FIDCWIUdvI/89h3BOP0V8QF9oHmsWyVcMmmb5/doX8GiO/Y2zKXNBQjNQQgYSL0vWkArVAXQ638jt21uYAa1+eI+KLPfkhqeU85k9oyEna0d2NdE4SqAjxG897IiLfCAR3I+zJCESg= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:45:38 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402180754.037fbbb0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402171154.038158a0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402174322.03749e70@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402180754.037fbbb0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <8CWU5C.A.NHG.kWZEGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74202 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Japan is a nation prone to cover-ups and obscurity, but this scandal > takes the cake. The value of 'face' exceeds that of 'truth'. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 16:53:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l32Nrm1S029349; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:53:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l32Nrkvh029326; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:53:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:53:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3EKhvj3EFoNwi84PbOYrmZoijrCd2UhIzvNFiKNKIjaWyZ/xzZsWV4T9V0uUiaPdxMAwM9zu6a9Zc8bQ1NNx+1BAzo5aTU14TugrZCRyJafGmx6rbGsD2Yl1MXy/QkIM1w/FSQFXTnFtTRTyx64OJB7AuolMKh0DO7vewTPODMA= ; X-YMail-OSG: aWAcDNUVM1llr7motosRuup9KYF.Ib_KP0nqy6jmBXXhlbIhqTRGgWtoQJ.OHcBv6a6WyxdBtaVeI1TI1yYkYAXDatpfnhNZnlaPvuZt_uR00IwOsko- Message-ID: <46119784.7050505@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:53:40 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <410-22007412191732804@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070402153204.037fbbb0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070402153204.037fbbb0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74203 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What does big-oil fear more than Nancy Pelosi and the Dem-wits? Answer: the resourcefulness of the American farmer, backed by voter anti-tax sentiment in support of this 'local hero'. And now with aquaculture and depleted fishing resources - they also are fearing the emergence of low-cost sea-based aquaculture (algae harvesting). Oil prices cannot go much higher than $3.50-4.00 at the pump now, because of this looming price-cap - placed on oil NOT by the legislature (which would like to see it go even higher) but by the farm lobby and good-old capitalist profit-motive ... ...together with the clear realization in DC that that if the farmer and aquaculture get 'over the hump' and into full production and employment, then each will have the necessary voter bloc constituency - which can and WILL eliminate most taxes for the domestic product only, putting big-oil and big government spenders at competitive disadvantage. Part of the PR problem for algoil starts at the top. Vital info has been accumulated by NREL, but is not being released in a timely fashion. They are not comfortable with a massive shift of resources into aquaculture. However, discovery of this profit potential (in alternative fuel) is almost impossible to obfuscate. What we see now, in the recent boom in ethanol production will shift next year and beyond into a boom in aquaculture and biodiesel. There is little chance of turning back that trend --unless LENR, ZPE or hydrino-tech comes to the rescue. The late/great 300+ page study on algae - crammed full of disinformation from DoE is now 10 years old, and NREL was supposed to have a timely update with revised comparisons on the yield of the newer strains of algae, which are superior (as expected) and best techniques - but no one can find this revision online. Is this deliberate interference ? ...ah shucks, probably just being held-up a bit by Petro-insider "consultants" as it is very damaging to 'bidness' as they say in Dubai. At 10 years old, when crude was under $20 or about a fourth of what it is now - biodiesel from aquaculture was not then seen by DoE as competitive - so consequently they did NOT plan for it aggressively (as they should have). They even said: "Even with assumptions of $50 per ton of CO2 as a carbon credit, the cost of biodiesel never competes with the projected cost of petroleum diesel." That was their erroneous conclusion then! One hopes that we will not repeat that error and will plan aggressively and encourage the shift away from OPEC for the next ten years: which is based firmly biodiesel from aquaculture. Yields are up to 10,000 time higher per acre than soybeans, for instance. BTW this report does admit that 100% self-sufficiency is possible through aquaculture - but hardly a dent can be accomplished from agriculture alone (soy and corn). That "never competes" conclusion is what big-oil "wants" you to remember in 2007, but my-my -- look how a few oil-Wars change everything which was valid then, as now the wholesale price of petro-diesel at the pump in 2007 is actually higher than biodiesel in many places. The cost estimates for the ASP program developed in 1995 showed that algal biodiesel cost would range from $1.40 to $4.40 per gallon based on long-term projections - three times more than petro-diesel then. They also allude to the 'full-tax' or 'less-tax' implications. That is the very consideration which puts government at odds with citizens. Voters will pay modest taxes on biodiesel for road improvement but not massive taxes for sponsoring oil-wars or other pork. Yes that is a gross over-simplification of the embedded dynamics, but it gets to the crux of the problem. We, the citizens, want self-sufficiency and are willing to vote for the US farmer (or aquaculturist) in any way which will get us there, even if it means lower taxes for Hawks to wage war with. The current price of biodiesel has lived up to that estimate (actually below the low end of that estimate), but 2007 numbers for petro-diesel are much higher than DoE estimated then. The next ten years will be even harder to estimate, because biodiesel from algae itself will probably lower the rigged-price which the Arabs and OPEC can extort. They can and will sell oil any price necessary to ruin or stifle the competition, so we must protect biodiesel from predatory pricing and we can use one-sided taxes to do that. However, this will probably lower overall tax revenues -- so there is the problem in a nutshell. Duh! Average price per gallon in the USA, from DoE two years ago: Biodiesel (untaxed but from higher priced soy, NOT algae) $2.27 Diesel (taxed) $2.24 Gasoline (taxed) $2.11 Ethanol (untaxed) $1.86 I filled up today in California with regular gasoline at $3.25. I wish I had a diesel and would even pay more for biodiesel - but look at what little choice the consummer has in that regard. Forty percent of autos in Europe are diesel - almost zero here. The reason that government is complicit with OPEC and big-oil on not wanting the biodiesel alternatives is the enormous tax base which can be lost. And most of it does not go for roads. Of the $3.25/gallon only about $1.40 goes to the the refinery and dealer- the rest is local, state, and federal taxes. If consumers insist on getting biodiesel but with lower taxes, since it is locally produced, that is the big fear. They may buy it direct from the farmer which is an even greater fear. BTW big-oil always raises prices in California first, to see if that brings out the protesters in large numbers. It did not this year. You will be next, wherever you are. The brief downturn in prices over the winter was a 'cruelty joke'. Look for $4.00/gallon nationwide by July 4th. Why? Did you see how much Hillary C. i$ raising for her run? Rudy will need even more to win, with all his 'skeletons' in the closet, and that regime-stability-factor for the Petrocracy will probably show up at the pump. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 19:22:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l332LvR9029776; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:21:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l332Ltef029760; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:21:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:21:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=phABHsjJ9SLVuAKw3znyddxk4/WTebA30x9kpgsj88p9+z0tZ+ip3Uzj7sD1iDav; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <32285638.1175566913459.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:21:53 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c20f96c482b5c9babc124f8edcaddcdc17bcc69e3eba92200350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74204 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: >> Japan is a nation prone to cover-ups and obscurity, but this scandal >> takes the cake. > >The value of 'face' exceeds that of 'truth'. This looks like straight out criminality to me. They did not want to turn o= ff the reactors, pay a fine, or deal with the B.S. of regulators poking int= o their business. One of the documents uncovered was described by the repor= ter as saying, in summary, "we know that safety is our responsibility, and = we are going to have to write regulations and do what needs to be done. We = are the experts in reactor safety. Let's keep the government and the public= from poking around and telling us how to run our business." In the previous nuclear accidents in Japan, the level of cover-up and audac= ity of the lies was breathtaking. After a reactor fire, I recall they gave = the news media a video showing the insides of the reactor building looking = fine. The message was: "See? It's all fixed. Nothing to worry about. Go awa= y." It turned out the video was made before the fire, and the place was a s= hambles far worse than they had described previously. Their behavior remind= s of the government in the Soviet Union around 1970. They are so used to ly= ing it is second nature to them, and they have forgotten how to tell the tr= uth. The nuclear power industry would never get away with that kind of thin= g in the U.S. The situation in Japan was well described by Alex Kerr, in the book "Dogs a= nd Demons: Tales From the Dark Side of Japan." The Aneha construction scand= al and this nuclear power scandal is even worse than anything he described = -- or than I ever imagined. This is a nation & culture rotten to the core. = Of course, this kind of thing never continues indefinitely. Sooner or later= , societies either reform and become healthy again . . . or they go extinct= . The people may survive, but the culture vanishes, the way Japan's pre-mod= ern culture did after 1868. Commentators and newspaper articles often prais= e the Japanese for "preserving their traditions" but it does not look that = way to me. When I read about how my relatives lived in 1902, or 1860 -- wha= t we ate, the kind of books we read, our jobs, marriages and concerns -- it= sounds a lot like my present culture. We still wear pants and suits, but J= apanese people never wear kimonos anymore. We Americans & Europeans are the= ones who honor tradition, and know about the past. In Japan the past is a = foreign country, and people have no roots. It is sad. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 20:25:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l333PMlA017648; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 20:25:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l333PKhZ017628; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 20:25:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 20:25:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=cKZ0M0+4FrTr3cZXVRDNOtfN9oATUF7Zs8mhb4LHc8QditoFmSDLU1kRsFSgzpJ6; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <18637019.1175570718981.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 23:25:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c20f96c482b5c9babb2822e2c40ba98b42f0d3e14bf9a219a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74205 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One of my correspondents, who may wish to remain anonymous, wrote to me: >I was always uncomfortable whenever conventional Nuclear energy was proposed >as clean and safe. >The accidents and close calls and contaminations happen everywhere there is >Nuclear power, it isn't safe. I would like to share my response. Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group and we all know that a large machine can be dangerous, and there are always pros and cons. Having said that, I have to ask: It isn't safe compared to what? It is lot safer than coal, which spews millions of tons of radioactive garbage, and is probably destroying the world with global warming. It is safer than oil, which pays for terrorism. Okay, it is a more dangerous than wind power, but unfortunately there is not enough wind in Georgia or Japan to make a significant contribution. I feel angry at these Japanese managers and technicians partly because they have betrayed their profession -- they have betrayed us, and people like Mizuno, who trained in nuclear technology. They may even have destroyed the future of nuclear power in Japan, which is bad news for global warming. Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! And if only they *had* honored the truth, and openly reported the problem the first time, the following accidents would not have happened. Suppose the first time those rods fell out of the stack and into the bottom of the containment vessel they told the regulators, told the public, and most important, warned the other operators with the same kind of reactor. The problem would have been fixed instead of re-occuring time after time, and being covered up. The sequence of events that destroyed the Three Mile Island reactor happened twice before at other plants made by the same company. Twice before the valve jammed open and there was no sensor to properly warn the operators. In both cases the problem was discovered before it led to serious consequences. A low-level NRL regulator took notice, wrote it up, and tried to have the equipment and control board modified to keep it from happening again. But no one listened, and the third time the problem went all the way and melted about a third of the core. If only the information had been brought into the light, and taken seriously, the accident never would have happened. It could have been avoided easily, with some simple modifications. Keeping these kinds of secrets is a violation of ethics of engineering and scientific research, and a horribly stupid thing to do. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 21:52:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l334qDYC014133; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 21:52:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l334qBUr014115; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 21:52:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 21:52:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> References: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Zachary Jones Subject: Re: [Vo]: ORMES questions Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 21:52:55 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74206 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Know who at U of M? Zak On Apr 2, 2007, at 7:32 AM, thomas malloy wrote: > I had a serendipitous event last Thursday night. I met this Chem E. > He was talking about remediating the waste out of a nickle mine. I > mentioned ghost gold, he replied, ORMES. I mentioned Joe Champion's > theories, he mentioned LENR. He knows about BLP too. I wanted to > discuss the matter further, but he has a commitment to his > partners. He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as > far as I can tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a > researcher at the U of M is working on it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 22:02:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3351uug018911; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:01:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3351soi018894; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:01:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:01:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dReNECjHjEuEJMF/271+15HHX/sFo3Ss6Vtf64HMamn1IXscTgENaCqKI0Rce8CTNSLPSzfkasKIdT9RXHid0CouAZtTFYPvP2RRsMdXao4pRhL0E2ZMHckyl/pdBflO5Zaubk1BtVZ+u6/OUaYLDTXrWgBTQXjftCa3gVJqaIs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QCC3BQF2fk9YJbMk4Z4HVikIP5DBcZlbh7dYjxRbZ05Gzx+Ikxwygf9ZrI0MjWm9yHDgZfGLfui2GniXboPijCpfTHgQJoUL1EqMR4cITq9MkJ+dY7n/tSY+LTGwBBo+gYXiyqER5fwtraXaslf6X8uhmL0rt9zO9rRchKdYpfw= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:01:53 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ORMES questions In-Reply-To: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74207 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: there are many theories of everything. gut instinct, you know. On 4/2/07, thomas malloy wrote: > I had a serendipitous event last Thursday night. I met this Chem E. He > was talking about remediating the waste out of a nickle mine. I > mentioned ghost gold, he replied, ORMES. I mentioned Joe Champion's > theories, he mentioned LENR. He knows about BLP too. I wanted to discuss > the matter further, but he has a commitment to his partners. He did > mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as far as I can tell, it > applies to particle physics. He said that a researcher at the U of M is > working on it. > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 2 22:10:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l335AMjC023361; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:10:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l335AK7N023344; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:10:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:10:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=clmz0zQLnK14/49ytFjA0a4fmAbHLHzaQDN7XAlmDNaVMQKLUifZTPsH05owp7N72OiVhR2I74fjuufdcDEy3mMZWLq0cOW8VVm7nJktUKERrVP38q82rxCfSEi3WqDKZ5rk7NVZUnw7bvxtpqqO7s7Xw6EBYIXhkiq50KEAQD4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=QsnY+a4EXYm0rMLaThwUjIZbrw11YChNKMDwRTRCeAIfsFg17HNiN3Cbiye4qxIgmgIBb0FRX2R2r0CWKXvTrhgPJXnm8e6XSYNuye2r8pxREAB7vhie7iQ6LRAvZsUYMc+KDZSf7HJ4LSnbAHOeOhp2EFBFViN9C6XaAGSiMdM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:10:18 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan In-Reply-To: <18637019.1175570718981.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2652_13522044.1175577018507" References: <18637019.1175570718981.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74208 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_2652_13522044.1175577018507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The reply-to was not vortex-L@eskimo.com as I had expected, not an attempt at anonymity. Never the less I believe that the Horror of Chernobyl, reports of up to 1 Million dead and continuing impact is perhaps great enough to put Nuclear down the list a bit in terms of preferred power sources, Coal is never so devastating as that, coal is only worse if you assume Nuclear goes without a hitch. It's not a cost effective source of power either, it requires government subsidies last I heard. I'm not here to defend coal and oil, they are awful. (And indeed if man made CO2 from fossil fuels are indeed responsible for global warming then I must agree it it worse especially when in theory Nuclear can be safer than it currently is) But there is Hydro, Ocean (Tide, Wave and temperature differential), Solar and Wind, each of which could solely be used to power the world if fully tapped and in the case of Hydro engineered. (and if the energy was stored and transmitted efficiently to where these sources were not available) However on a more practical note I believe that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical equipment where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen reservoir. Oh, of course I agree that Fossil fuel funds terrorism, but we may disagree on which oil funded men commit Terrorism, but let's not go back there. On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > One of my correspondents, who may wish to remain anonymous, wrote to me: > > >I was always uncomfortable whenever conventional Nuclear energy was > proposed > >as clean and safe. > >The accidents and close calls and contaminations happen everywhere there > is > >Nuclear power, it isn't safe. > > I would like to share my response. > > Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on > Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group and we all know that > a large machine can be dangerous, and there are always pros and cons. > > Having said that, I have to ask: It isn't safe compared to what? It is lot > safer than coal, which spews millions of tons of radioactive garbage, and is > probably destroying the world with global warming. It is safer than oil, > which pays for terrorism. Okay, it is a more dangerous than wind power, but > unfortunately there is not enough wind in Georgia or Japan to make a > significant contribution. > > I feel angry at these Japanese managers and technicians partly because > they have betrayed their profession -- they have betrayed us, and people > like Mizuno, who trained in nuclear technology. They may even have destroyed > the future of nuclear power in Japan, which is bad news for global warming. > Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! And if only they *had* honored the > truth, and openly reported the problem the first time, the following > accidents would not have happened. Suppose the first time those rods fell > out of the stack and into the bottom of the containment vessel they told the > regulators, told the public, and most important, warned the other operators > with the same kind of reactor. The problem would have been fixed instead of > re-occuring time after time, and being covered up. > > The sequence of events that destroyed the Three Mile Island reactor > happened twice before at other plants made by the same company. Twice before > the valve jammed open and there was no sensor to properly warn the > operators. In both cases the problem was discovered before it led to serious > consequences. A low-level NRL regulator took notice, wrote it up, and tried > to have the equipment and control board modified to keep it from happening > again. But no one listened, and the third time the problem went all the way > and melted about a third of the core. If only the information had been > brought into the light, and taken seriously, the accident never would have > happened. It could have been avoided easily, with some simple modifications. > Keeping these kinds of secrets is a violation of ethics of engineering and > scientific research, and a horribly stupid thing to do. > > - Jed > > > > ------=_Part_2652_13522044.1175577018507 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The reply-to was not vortex-L@eskimo.com as I had expected, not an attempt at anonymity.

Never the less I believe that the Horror of Chernobyl, reports of up to 1 Million dead and continuing impact is perhaps great enough to put Nuclear down the list a bit in terms of preferred power sources, Coal  is never so devastating as that, coal is only worse if you assume Nuclear goes without a hitch.

It's not a cost effective source of power either, it requires government subsidies last I heard.

I'm not here to defend coal and oil, they are awful. (And indeed if man made CO2 from fossil fuels are indeed responsible for global warming then I must agree it it worse especially when in theory Nuclear can be safer than it currently is)

But there is Hydro, Ocean (Tide, Wave and temperature differential), Solar and Wind, each of which could solely be used to power the world if fully tapped and in the case of Hydro engineered. (and if the energy was stored and transmitted efficiently to where these sources were not available)

However on a more practical note I believe that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical equipment where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen reservoir.


Oh, of course I agree that Fossil fuel funds terrorism, but we may disagree on which oil funded men commit Terrorism, but let's not go back there.

On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
One of my correspondents, who may wish to remain anonymous, wrote to me:

>I was always uncomfortable whenever conventional Nuclear energy was proposed
>as clean and safe.
>The accidents and close calls and contaminations happen everywhere there is
>Nuclear power, it isn't safe.

I would like to share my response.

Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group and we all know that a large machine can be dangerous, and there are always pros and cons.

Having said that, I have to ask: It isn't safe compared to what? It is lot safer than coal, which spews millions of tons of radioactive garbage, and is probably destroying the world with global warming. It is safer than oil, which pays for terrorism. Okay, it is a more dangerous than wind power, but unfortunately there is not enough wind in Georgia or Japan to make a significant contribution.

I feel angry at these Japanese managers and technicians partly because they have betrayed their profession -- they have betrayed us, and people like Mizuno, who trained in nuclear technology. They may even have destroyed the future of nuclear power in Japan, which is bad news for global warming. Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! And if only they *had* honored the truth, and openly reported the problem the first time, the following accidents would not have happened. Suppose the first time those rods fell out of the stack and into the bottom of the containment vessel they told the regulators, told the public, and most important, warned the other operators with the same kind of reactor. The problem would have been fixed instead of re-occuring time after time, and being covered up.

The sequence of events that destroyed the Three Mile Island reactor happened twice before at other plants made by the same company. Twice before the valve jammed open and there was no sensor to properly warn the operators. In both cases the problem was discovered before it led to serious consequences. A low-level NRL regulator took notice, wrote it up, and tried to have the equipment and control board modified to keep it from happening again. But no one listened, and the third time the problem went all the way and melted about a third of the core. If only the information had been brought into the light, and taken seriously, the accident never would have happened. It could have been avoided easily, with some simple modifications. Keeping these kinds of secrets is a violation of ethics of engineering and scientific research, and a horribly stupid thing to do.

- Jed




------=_Part_2652_13522044.1175577018507-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 05:31:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33CVakh031908; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 05:31:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33CVXhS031883; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 05:31:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 05:31:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c775eb$be21f7d0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: ORMES questions Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:29:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <7uZcC.A.HyH.lkkEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74209 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas wrote.. > He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as far as I can > tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a researcher at the U > of M is working on it. Howdy Thomas, Not hard to run into lotsa people like this at meetings but where's the beef? Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 05:58:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33CwV8J005956; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 05:58:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33CwT79005930; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 05:58:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 05:58:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c775ef$c2532190$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <18637019.1175570718981.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:58:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74210 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote.. >Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! Howdy Jed, Good summary of the problems surrounding nuclear power. Your summary could also describe modern technology. The single greatest technological impact on society over the past 300 years is so subtle as to be unrecognized... CREDIT CARDS. While we have safety programs and a host of inspectors and reporters watching nuclear programs including Parksie, notice nobody is watching CitiBank... hmmm.. they are following Halliburton to Dubai.. but a bank by any other name is still spelled Saudi money. The solution to energy supply will become apparent when the power fails in Cali, New York and D.C. Stop using so much electric power and use more energy efficent autos. It is working for credit cards.. ask any college kid. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 07:02:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33E26ZX018702; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:02:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33E24JO018665; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:02:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:02:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=RhB1VmNsRhjWXHLKbb1w7JAyllMoRxrpJ6yIFeL44STzmUgM6X26kL9jkoA27GQf74u/N+q058wbcR/Qo7PHNZXSTRKc/ULhzoBNHmKgTYqelwYBau6RYqBv1GajQyjgmlmTHzNajmnPUYSEOwPa3s0G216F86MQwCBu+5aMe1w= ; X-YMail-OSG: GV93qh8VM1lwfHSX9sikmtikpY8kwwGGH4hq43JfPcheLg3Q7nt1cUXu4Zmcx2mBqF35Q9Pzj0w0GPKklglNNbRfog-- Message-ID: <46125E52.9010800@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 07:01:54 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74211 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Streets of SF Status: O X-Status: The Streets of San Francisco... No... not the Michael Douglas, Karl Malden reruns .... but a newer kind of non-stop chase-scene ... chasing the rolling-green, as it were. ... but is it the "next big thing" ? http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/18476/ Following the dot.com 'bust' 7-8 years ago, lots of jobs were lost in the epicenter of that phenomenon - the San Francisco Bay area; but most of the IPO wealth had long since been cashed-out by savvy investors - and already rebooted into a gaggle of genetic engineering startup companies, many of which located a few blocks away in South San Francisco. Even though that industry, epitomized by the company 'Genetech' has yet to fully mature, the 'smart money' which landed there, has moved-on, once again. The original 'smart money' from 60's silicon valley: Intel, AMD and HP, jumped first to computers, then to software and games, then to dot.com, then to genetics and is now moving-on in a relentless quest to do for venture capital what Moore's law has done for the CPU. That's why they call it "smart". 'Smart' and 'stationary' do not mix. A rolling stone may gather no moss, but like Rumple-straw, it can be transmuted into virtual gold, if spun rapidly. The story of Amyris Biotech (above) is one of many similar. However, the longshot bet on the "next big thing" may not be biofuel... ... make that "not only biofuel." Jones Today I'll brew, tomorrow bake; Merrily then I'll dance and sing, For morrow will a king's heir bring. As little does a royal lady dream That Rumpelstiltskin is my name!" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 09:19:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33GJLv1010670; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:19:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33GJFXa010565; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:19:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:19:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403115055.03780d40@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:19:03 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_wKRt.A.ekC.-5nEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74212 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes Status: O X-Status: The French V150 railroad just broke the world speed record for conventional railroad trains. I just realized that if railroad trains could routinely travel at that speed in the lower 48 states, nonstop trains would be effectively as fast as airplanes are today. This is because of the hub and spoke air transportation system and because there are so many delays getting to the airport and waiting after you get on board. Check it out: V150 railroad locomotive with two cars: 357.2 mph = 575 km/h 25,000 HP engine = 18 MW Boeing 747 Cruise speed: 565 mph = 910 km/h Engines at cruise speed: 60 MW (I think) Distance and time to New York, NY to San Francisco, CA By road: 2,905 mi, V150 8:08 travel time By air: 2,582 mi, Delta airlines (no direct direct flight): 7:49 travel time with one stop Distance and time to New York, NY to Atlanta, GA By road: 883 miles, V150 2:28 travel time By air: 749 miles, Delta airlines: 2:15 travel time nonstop I, for one, would much prefer to take a train for 8 hours to get to the west coast, rather than schlep around in airports. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 09:55:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33GtaW0004512; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:55:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33GtTnK004454; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:55:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:55:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:55:26 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_782110077bab86d9266c1cb880240024" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74213 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_782110077bab86d9266c1cb880240024 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jed, I saw the CNN news article earlier today. It's a great use of the old "iron horse" technology refurbished with the latest enhancements. One would assume that the amount of energy consumed traveling by rail is significantly less than what is consumed doing the same distance by air. I live in Madison, Wisconsin. There has been on the table for quite some time now an ambitious plan to bring back a commuter line between Madison and Milwaukee. I think there has also been a plan to add a line down to the Chicago outskirts. It has produced considerable debate from both sides of the issue, one I suspect that has yet to be resolved. I suspect one of the major complaints (regardless of whether it is justified or not) is a fear that it would never develop a sufficient customer base to make it profitable. State legislators fear it would turn into yet another state government boondoggle. Traveling at 60 - 70 MPH by rail is by most standards a fast commute. Traveling at speeds in far excess of 300 MPH is downright...well I don't know WHAT it is! Maybe it's best not to look out the window. Guess I'd get used to it. Commuting regularly at such speeds would seem to open up far more employment opportunities all around. Working in Chicago, but living in Madison (150 miles away) could turn out to be an affordable, practical, and idyllic life style, especially when the commute would take no longer than what it takes for a typical Madisonian to commute from one side of the city to the other. Even in our small town intercity commutes can consume 30 - 40 minutes in the midst of rush hour traffic. Despite these inconveniences we like our little town! Madison had been rated as one of the best cities in the U.S. to live in. I think that little French train can. I think it can. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > The French V150 railroad just broke the world speed record for > conventional railroad trains. I just realized that if railroad trains > could routinely travel at that speed in the lower 48 states, nonstop > trains would be effectively as fast as airplanes are today. This is > because of the hub and spoke air transportation system and because > there are so many delays getting to the airport and waiting after you > get on board. Check it out: > > V150 railroad locomotive with two cars: > > 357.2 mph = 575 km/h > 25,000 HP engine = 18 MW > > Boeing 747 > > Cruise speed: 565 mph = 910 km/h > Engines at cruise speed: 60 MW (I think) > > Distance and time to New York, NY to San Francisco, CA > > By road: 2,905 mi, V150 8:08 travel time > By air: 2,582 mi, Delta airlines (no direct direct flight): 7:49 > travel time with one stop > > Distance and time to New York, NY to Atlanta, GA > > By road: 883 miles, V150 2:28 travel time > By air: 749 miles, Delta airlines: 2:15 travel time nonstop > > I, for one, would much prefer to take a train for 8 hours to get to > the west coast, rather than schlep around in airports. > > - Jed > > --=_782110077bab86d9266c1cb880240024 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jed,

I saw the CNN news article earlier today. It's a great use of the old "iron= horse" technology refurbished with the latest enhancements. One would assu= me that the amount of energy consumed traveling by rail is significantly le= ss than what is consumed doing the same distance by air.

I live in Madison, Wisconsin. There has been on the table for quite some ti= me now an ambitious plan to bring back a commuter line between Madison and = Milwaukee. I think there has also been a plan to add a line down to the Chi= cago outskirts. It has produced considerable debate from both sides of the = issue, one I suspect that has yet to be resolved. I suspect one of the majo= r complaints (regardless of whether it is justified or not) is a fear that = it would never develop a sufficient customer base to make it profitable. St= ate legislators fear it would turn into yet another state government boondo= ggle.

Traveling at 60 - 70 MPH by rail is by most standards a fast commute. Trave= ling at speeds in far excess of 300 MPH is downright...well I don't know WH= AT it is! Maybe it's best not to look out the window. Guess I'd get used to= it.

Commuting regularly at such speeds would seem to open up far more employmen= t opportunities all around. Working in Chicago, but living in Madison (150 = miles away) could turn out to be an affordable, practical, and idyllic life= style, especially when the commute would take no longer than what it takes= for a typical Madisonian to commute from one side of the city to the other= . Even in our small town intercity commutes can consume 30 - 40 minutes in = the midst of rush hour traffic. Despite these inconveniences we like our li= ttle town! Madison had been rated as one of the best cities in the U.S. to = live in.

I think that little French train can. I think it can.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


>
> The French V150 railroad just broke the world speed record for
> conventional railroad trains. I just realized that if railroad trains > could routinely travel at that speed in the lower 48 states, nonstop
> trains would be effectively as fast as airplanes are today. This is
> because of the hub and spoke air transportation system and because
> there are so many delays getting to the airport and waiting after you > get on board. Check it out:
>
> V150 railroad locomotive with two cars:
>
> 357.2 mph =3D 575 km/h
> 25,000 HP engine =3D 18 MW
>
> Boeing 747
>
> Cruise speed: 565 mph =3D 910 km/h
> Engines at cruise speed: 60 MW (I think)
>
> Distance and time to New York, NY to San Francisco, CA
>
> By road: 2,905 mi, V150 8:08 travel time
> By air: 2,582 mi, Delta airlines (no direct direct flight): 7:49
> travel time with one stop
>
> Distance and time to New York, NY to Atlanta, GA
>
> By road: 883 miles, V150 2:28 travel time
> By air: 749 miles, Delta airlines: 2:15 travel time nonstop
>
> I, for one, would much prefer to take a train for 8 hours to get to
> the west coast, rather than schlep around in airports.
>
> - Jed
>
>
--=_782110077bab86d9266c1cb880240024-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 10:14:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33HEJJ8007814; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:14:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33HEFhE007740; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:14:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:14:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070403101356.02b9cd70@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven1@newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:18:07 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403115055.03780d40@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5yvdlC.A.e4B.ltoEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74214 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >357.2 mph = 575 km/h >25,000 HP engine = 18 MW 357 mph in a train? That's terrific. I love the concept of rail. But 357 is a little too scary for me. Alternatively, you know what they say about flying... It's really not too dangerous when you're in the air. The only problems are when you are near the ground.... s From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 10:19:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33HIxXZ015878; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:19:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33HIvNG015827; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:18:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:18:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=lNt5nFyWRx7FTERYy1E/GP2yy40fxvG5KiGn9pV3F8/v+Ny/Y9LYfIxhXTKSlFO//9YecazKWj555kTAz/sLSgHR/Y6W38ASKc71n39pxDlW3NTQwLoTSH82rpkBDhCXW0U3V5wHbevdEWoOBSxKPbuA0dPrcSTdLCg05B4NrMY=; X-YMail-OSG: _m2PECcVM1naWueCMPVcpjG9KMA.aGQ.MqD9jWl.9JAC_mjIQun6OcirEavWblluvxBEVFl5zBFMf1S4H9k8mHy.bN.q9lVVeqaXXS_rbciMTdEeeeEUCWtBVbp5XQ-- Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:18:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Rhong Dhong Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74215 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > Commuting regularly at such speeds would seem to > open up far more employment opportunities all > around. Working in Chicago, but living in Madison > (150 miles away) could turn out to be an affordable, > practical, and idyllic life style, especially when > the commute would take no longer than what it takes > for a typical Madisonian to commute from one side of > the city to the other. It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws some more. The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go through a search, including removing his shoes; with anyone who doesn't keep quiet or looks vaguely suspicious pulled out of line for a strip search, maybe a little salutary jail time. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 10:32:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33HVvp8004670; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:31:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33HVsFx004646; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:31:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:31:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403132452.037ba260@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:31:48 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20070403101356.02b9cd70@mail.newenergytimes.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403115055.03780d40@mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20070403101356.02b9cd70@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74216 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >Alternatively, you know what they say about flying... It's really >not too dangerous when you're in the air. The only problems are when >you are near the ground.... I do not worry about the danger. I just do not like being crammed into a small, smelly cabin with bad food, air pressure changes, and all these invasive procedures against terrorism. The latest invasive procedure is to look at you naked with an x-ray machine. See: http://www.slate.com/id/2160977/ http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/24/us/24scan.jpg I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look out the window and see something . . . The fast trains in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make trains run on water. What I would really like to experience is a flight on a Zeppelin. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 10:38:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33HcYLY015255; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:38:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33HcUiO015220; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:38:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:38:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:38:29 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes In-Reply-To: <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74217 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rhong Dhong wrote: >It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One >suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws some more. > >The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go >through a search . . . Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. Of course a small bomb would kill some people, but it would be no worse than an attack in a shopping mall. We are not going to set up searches at every shopping mall or other crowded place. Even the Israelis do not do that, and they have much more to worry about than Americans. Note that Amtrak trains already limit the number of bags, and they do have a rudimentary search. The French and Japanese trains do not. If anything, concerns about terrorism will increase the appeal of trains. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 11:58:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33Io1in002649; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:52:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33IiYbg030984; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:44:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:44:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:44:25 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_54fb356c3d811b652dc320c37224ebbf" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070403185025.78E4CBFB43@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74218 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_54fb356c3d811b652dc320c37224ebbf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jed sez: ... > > I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look > out the window and see something . . . The fast trains > in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way > to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never > take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make > trains run on water. > > What I would really like to experience is a flight > on a Zeppelin. > > - Jed So would I. Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was published in either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design of a heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art technology. I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and rechargeable batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the sides. (Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film technology just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) It looked like a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the concept was that when you cut the power it would simply float back to the ground, or body of water for that matter. Only when the electric props were actively engaged would there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and on to infinity! The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient passenger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one feel as if they were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The Fifth Element" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least not in the current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH. I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified Hindenburg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be how it would negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and other bad weather. Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_54fb356c3d811b652dc320c37224ebbf Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed sez:

...

>
> I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look
> out the window and see something . . . The fast trains
> in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way
> to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never
> take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make
> trains run on water.
>
> What I would really like to experience is a flight
> on a Zeppelin.
>
> - Jed

So would I.

Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was published i= n either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design of = a heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art technolog= y. I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and rechargeable = batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the sides. (= Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film technol= ogy just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) It looked lik= e a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the concept was that w= hen you cut the power it would simply float back to the ground, or body of = water for that matter. Only when the electric props were actively engaged w= ould there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and on to infinity= !

The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient passen= ger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one feel as if t= hey were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The Fifth Ele= ment" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least not in the= current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH.

I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified Hindenbu= rg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be how it would = negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and other bad wea= ther.

Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_54fb356c3d811b652dc320c37224ebbf-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 12:26:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33JPvi2023315; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:25:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33JPsiX023298; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:25:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:25:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403152024.037b1790@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:25:13 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_vNmiB.A.4rF.CpqEGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74219 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion Status: O X-Status: Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group: "The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now. This adds to the pressures on the auto industry to end business as usual thinking, and, we hope, start building "good enough" PHEVs. It adds to the momentum to fuel cars from renewable low-carbon sources. This ruling sets the stage for the EPA to approve the waiver necessary for California's first Global Warming Bill (AB1493, 2002) to go into effect. That bill requires automakers to begin reducing GHGs from cars beginning in 2009, with reductions reaching 30% in 2016 . . ." This may turn out to be one of the most important events in the history of environmentalism. Also in California, Gov. Schwarzenegger has turned out to be remarkably friendly toward environmentalism, and also an effective governor. This is a pleasant surprise to me. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 12:38:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33JbviF028840; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:37:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33JbvG0028832; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:37:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:37:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403152945.03799510@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:37:25 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> References: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74220 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or >make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. One of the reasons electric trains are safer is because they do not explode as easily as airplanes do. They do not carry volatile fuel. Most aircraft accident victims die from smoke inhalation or fire, after crash landings. Even if the train is derailed, because a modern train car has a very strong structure and the passengers are likely to survive. The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better. In the U.S. there is a significant risk of striking deer and other wildlife at ground level. Not just deer; last year I was driving in a hilly part of eastern Pennsylvania when a large black bear bounded across the road in front of me. Both of us were shook up. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 13:38:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33KcSmL017563; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:38:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33KcRSg017548; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:38:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:38:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Oh1gwMutmMFQ2Xvo8zCaCcwZf89ILuY0QmwV3yHmJ63phXdnHDktK8Ng9adl6Wsyjw7Uiv+cfqtHU47NWMywMA/famV1rVQzMopsj553Ynzf+bf/io6JAe1PTH4jyzlKqOObaMz8td/f336QlmI3xdcdgx4h3oTTpp++mUc6IrI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Vag2Jl9jgu8IwbziHjqGsN9KsXAx6yfy6XhzqdrAHJhgDzxJE6J7ox5dek51WxJCygIXP/lK2Z6KvWt1X/MO4ihTYMrwlIax4hUgXODLXoQN1FbvRmNQiZuV7HxWnf9j/VSJ6CXiPsbtmtbh2SRhUu3RN9vsrYAht7UvBbcfP1Q= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:38:24 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403152945.03799510@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070403152945.03799510@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74221 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think > the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better. True, but vastly more expensive in the US. In Nippon, concrete is much cheaper than dirt. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 14:28:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l33LSUER007037; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:28:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l33LSLL9006947; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:28:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:28:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:30:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403152024.037b1790@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74222 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: They'll just change emit more CO instead :-) . -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:25 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group: "The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 3 22:50:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l345oMLh003070; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:50:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l345oKgO003055; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:50:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:50:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46133C88.2080709@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 00:50:00 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes References: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74223 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Rhong Dhong wrote: > >> It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One >> suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws >> some more. >> >> The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go >> through a search . . . > > > Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or > make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 03:58:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34Awg0b026096; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 03:58:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34AweOT026075; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 03:58:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 03:58:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jL3JnpxooeMweGM84MA98usLIBTZZAi+iZYEyU4yrzRgr+mUI0WaTVTKJ5uXQ/Y4hr9pAXXY+R3QfP7JK4kAxYPlW4K7q0pm86klyVcIVRY0LeWZPe8ScUB+nQEllx3xDoTstWcYciKmLirxKHwk6oLB+dbM1AZ12au41IRZ6/8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=f/W+jB5rtWZZH0+IpmVcTaC+rEK8pBfuYksqjzaNY5EFwL7HDnlslbmV4UV9tsXR1VTRHIS3Sb6dDlrGHqL9JG4YOz5a3HFPgDvLNJfjQZZDQNY9bx495Niz6MQEKWJ6QfmUD0DhRv5SxX9eKAoOdKfVNlc24wUR7103lEIoTM8= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 06:58:37 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes In-Reply-To: <46133C88.2080709@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> <46133C88.2080709@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74224 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/4/07, thomas malloy wrote: > On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the > track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target. Actually, it's easier than that. On the railroad here we have an intentional derailer device which has a curved wedge shape which is used as a safety device to protect track workers. These are placed on the rails to intentionally derail a train which either ignores warning signals or is a runaway. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 05:59:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34CxgbM020318; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:59:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34CxZNO020287; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:59:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:59:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=byx+rsT9CuQX8YYhrh7FHuRIM5+zBFPw1wvU7l9MmoSzdEShf+Gd7ht7TIUserC1Av4Z9WpEAmTDib8pJmIXjeVODAKnq468ACgsDkFE+7phq7OJa17h/s9X8hmrytSEJUkYZ2HvQZ1530VxJgcLHPE0VfmwhlPP6IaPRJflOB4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=dBzNMK8uxBhLhJcj6Z7lPpG0Uv/g0AorvC62GQ7uhBz3Pr6W/PmeUCD/9kKEeCl6MXV4by8RhWoHw9qJbp/uGbmoRC4TKRK2v5+I8HxoQGX1qYLGJNuP7zMXMegnrLI5FrVx9WvCuhoRGos/PuVvcDLiqjmbRpUmpB//iQkJtcg= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:59:32 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74225 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Your Own Rocket Status: O X-Status: Powered by Jones' favorite fuel: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2270686.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 06:01:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34D16FD021019; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 06:01:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34D14Ln020991; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 06:01:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 06:01:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c776b9$52b63a50$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: Speaking of train wrecks Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:01:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C7768F.69073770"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74226 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C7768F.69073770 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7768F.690BCB50" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7768F.690BCB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, News mentions the anti-virus software industry has lost the worldwide = battle with the bad guys. MSN admits that Vista has already been = compromized.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7768F.690BCB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
News mentions the anti-virus software industry has lost the = worldwide=20 battle with the bad guys. MSN admits that Vista has already been=20 compromized. 
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C7768F.690BCB50-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C7768F.69073770 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c776b9$516c2e20$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C7768F.69073770-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 06:16:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34DGJtq026210; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 06:16:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34DG4Lu026071; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 06:16:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 06:16:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=E3r8dDab8tBdifJB6V9cxJLsFW2wO7/bNAhxtlbi1zk3hNYiLNEYzwqZ18aElr6g; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007434131556357@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:15:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406e550de80478127e57b70559b072f63e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74227 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jed keeps harping on the low (2%?) solar conversion efficiency of growing biomass, I'll put my ~3.5 acres of irrigated farmland into Jatropha Curcas bushes, where land all around it is selling for $.50 to $1.50 per square foot, up against his "41% efficient Solar Collector" anytime. That is, If I can hire Jones Beene to do the harvesting and stompin/squeezing for energy storage. :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_crop#Yields_of_common_crops_associated_with_biodiesel_production http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha http://www.jatrophaseeds.com/jatropha_curcas.htm "Jatropha curcas grows almost anywhere, even on gravelly, sandy and saline soils. It can thrive on the poorest stony soil. It can grow even in the crevices of rocks. The leaves shed during the winter months form mulch around the base of the plant. The organic matter from shed leaves enhance earth-worm activity in the soil around the root-zone of the plants, which improves the fertility of the soil. Climatically, Jatropha curcas is found in the tropics and subtropics and likes heat, although it does well even in lower temperatures and can withstand a light frost. Its water requirement is extremely low and it can stand long periods of drought by shedding most of its leaves to reduce transpiration loss. Jatropha curcas is also suitable for preventing soil erosion and shifting of sand dunes. " Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jed keeps harping on the low (2%?) solar conversion efficiency of growing biomass, I'll
put my ~3.5 acres of irrigated farmland into Jatropha Curcas bushes, where land all around it is selling for $.50 to $1.50
per square foot, up against his "41% efficient Solar Collector" anytime.
 
That is, If I can hire Jones Beene to do the harvesting and stompin/squeezing for energy storage.  :-)
 
 
 
 
"Jatropha curcas grows almost anywhere, even on gravelly, sandy and saline soils. It can thrive on the poorest stony soil. It can grow even in the crevices of rocks. The leaves shed during the winter months form mulch around the base of the plant. The organic matter from shed leaves enhance earth-worm activity in the soil around the root-zone of the plants, which improves the fertility of the soil. Climatically, Jatropha curcas is found in the tropics and subtropics and likes heat, although it does well even in lower temperatures and can withstand a light frost. Its water requirement is extremely low and it can stand long periods of drought by shedding most of its leaves to reduce transpiration loss. Jatropha curcas is also suitable for preventing soil erosion and shifting of sand dunes. "
 
Fred

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 08:20:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34FK3AW014198; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:20:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34F9doP005187; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:09:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:09:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4613BF97.2090300@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:09:11 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ORMES questions References: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74228 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Zachary Jones wrote: > Know who at U of M? > > Zak Da! If I knew who he was, I'd look him up. Richard wrote; >Not hard to run into lotsa people like this at meetings but >where's the beef? It depends on whether or not someone can produce any gold doesn't it. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 08:36:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34FZrsu000964; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:35:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34FZl5e000900; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:35:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:35:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=GsoDdCUdjxG6XznkdjWKuvGKw0yw8qlwRGwNc5sA3oRzcdiUaX73dPjvR8s+pQaHkW5YwznQu33SlTw1uhy9rfzYruigOAJ/YELS/oYtJzY1QqmFDv1qN6+iKp/GxGJXh2U9AQk42Fenh9ALMRE609AWbyIv+qxaLfjq6x99bTQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: zpcjJTcVM1mTEtV0BlcP.aXiBmiZkeiEpW60Xcx0z83vvVLu Message-ID: <4613C5CA.1070603@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 08:35:38 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <410-22007434131556357@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22007434131556357@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74229 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Jed keeps harping on the low (2%?) solar conversion efficiency of > growing biomass It is probably lower than that for general agriculture, but once again, that figure is meaningless as -- and so is the 40% efficiency number for new solar cells. These cells might achieve 40% at noon in July after being cleaned, yet only 10% at 9 am in December with the normal coating of grime which silicon picks up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and plumbing (for CO2). NREL has reported tank grown mixed algae strains which can surpass the 40% efficency figure anyway, and generally algae will continue to multiply for several hours after the sun goes down. The only comparison which counts in the least - therefore, is this: How much net energy, averaged over a full year, can be captured and stored per dollar of investment, less incremental costs. Under these criteria, which are the only ones which matter, it would not surprise any expert if the advantage of algoil over advanced silicon solar-cells turns out to be in the range of 50 times more energy returned per dollar of investment. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 08:50:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34Fnomv001089; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:49:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34Fnih6001063; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:49:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 08:49:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070404114439.0038c9a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:49:40 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes In-Reply-To: <46133C88.2080709@usfamily.net> References: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> <46133C88.2080709@usfamily.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74230 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >>Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, >>or make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy > >On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the >track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target. The French train with wheels was a tour de force, but not practical. The track had to be adjusted to the nearest millimeter at a huge cost. Maglev trains are much smoother and less vulnerable to problems with the track, or bombs, I assume. A Maglev train in Japan exceeded the new French record last year, 581 km/h versus 575 km/h. The French record is for wheeled trains only. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 09:15:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34GFDH3022175; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:15:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34GFBaG022142; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:15:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:15:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=10.0 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:15:08 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_fc2d8e338cab84e9f6b058b6e5f65ef1" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74231 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_fc2d8e338cab84e9f6b058b6e5f65ef1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Jones: > These [solar] cells might achieve 40% at noon in July > after being cleaned, yet only 10% at 9 am in December > with the normal coating of grime which silicon picks > up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are > extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and > plumbing (for CO2). > > NREL has reported tank grown mixed algae strains which > can surpass the 40% efficency figure anyway, and > generally algae will continue to multiply for several > hours after the sun goes down. > > The only comparison which counts in the least - > therefore, is this: > > How much net energy, averaged over a full year, can be > captured and stored per dollar of investment, less > incremental costs. > > Under these criteria, which are the only ones which > matter, it would not surprise any expert if the > advantage of algoil over advanced silicon solar-cells > turns out to be in the range of 50 times more energy > returned per dollar of investment. > > Jones Jones makes an interesting point about the vulnerability of solar cell technology under certain seasonal conditions. However, what's not clear to me is what would algoil be doing under equivalent conditions at 9 am in December, when temperatures are hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less. In the northern hemisphere the little critters would have already endured in excess of 12 hours of darkness (no photosynthesis) and sub freezing temperatures lowering their over-all body temperatures. I get the impression that they would work like gangbusters during the summer months. However, during the winter months I would be concerned that they might actually turn into a liability. Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50 times more energy returned per dollar of investment compared to solar cell technology. I'd like to believe that, but I remain a tad skeptical. Oh, what the hey. I guess when it comes down to the basics, five to ten times more "energy returned per dollar" would be nothing to sneeze at either. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_fc2d8e338cab84e9f6b058b6e5f65ef1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Jones:

> These [solar] cells might achieve 40% at noon in July
> after being cleaned, yet only 10% at 9 am in December
> with the normal coating of grime which silicon picks
> up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are
> extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and
> plumbing (for CO2).
>
> NREL has reported tank grown mixed algae strains which
> can surpass the 40% efficency figure anyway, and
> generally algae will continue to multiply for several
> hours after the sun goes down.
>
> The only comparison which counts in the least -
> therefore, is this:
>
> How much net energy, averaged over a full year, can be
> captured and stored per dollar of investment, less
> incremental costs.
>
> Under these criteria, which are the only ones which
> matter, it would not surprise any expert if the
> advantage of algoil over advanced silicon solar-cells
> turns out to be in the range of 50 times more energy
> returned per dollar of investment.
>
> Jones

Jones makes an interesting point about the vulnerability of solar cell tech= nology under certain seasonal conditions. However, what's not clear to me i= s what would algoil be doing under equivalent conditions at 9 am in Decembe= r, when temperatures are hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less. In the= northern hemisphere the little critters would have already endured in exce= ss of 12 hours of darkness (no photosynthesis) and sub freezing temperature= s lowering their over-all body temperatures. I get the impression that they= would work like gangbusters during the summer months. However, during the = winter months I would be concerned that they might actually turn into a lia= bility.

Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50 times more energy retu= rned per dollar of investment compared to solar cell technology. I'd like t= o believe that, but I remain a tad skeptical. Oh, what the hey. I guess whe= n it comes down to the basics, five to ten times more "energy returned per = dollar" would be nothing to sneeze at either.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
--=_fc2d8e338cab84e9f6b058b6e5f65ef1-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 09:31:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34GUs72019413; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:30:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34GUrsg019398; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:30:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:30:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=GuwORoL4WLw52xbsslkO03jCmOLwugPOQOgj0WedDBQiRXFLn8VCN3dSfEIUM7vr+MGAhl7kwUubgB3GOd0PYKWzsZcy8S288Uz73N/0OinMdQYnAEGiaeQmaVrOlsTVcsG16/5Fq3Ga6osucxXjb3M4eDk+AMc34UIjVzg3DCU= ; X-YMail-OSG: JgS9Pp0VM1mG531b2aCD6QDuTiTltiZDsYCi0NggQjISeCzLsgv5umjwhDh3ermoKEsLBUcTyg-- Message-ID: <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 09:30:45 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> In-Reply-To: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74232 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven > Jones makes an interesting point about the vulnerability of solar cell > technology under certain seasonal conditions. However, what's not clear > to me is what would algoil be doing under equivalent conditions at 9 am > in December, when temperatures are hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or > less. The prime location for any algae pond and CO2 sytem is adjacent to a regular power plant, where the hot water from cooling the steam generators (waste heat) heats the pond. These power plants are usually sited in a remote location, and have large buffer zones which can accomodate a pond of several hundred acres. An do not forget that there are algae strains which need little or no solar input at all - if they have heat and CO2 (these are found naturally around deep ocean thermal vents). 200 acres of algae, doubling in mass every few hours is lots of biota to work with - and you are also removing CO2 so it is win-win. > Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50 times more energy > returned per dollar of investment compared to solar cell technology. I'd > like to believe that, but I remain a tad skeptical. Then compute how much 200 acres of solar cells will cost... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 09:42:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34GgSD1024321; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:42:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34GgQGh024306; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:42:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:42:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:42:25 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_a3fdc048833af36539f4358e6a857e78" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070404164508.C92C03FA030@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74233 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_a3fdc048833af36539f4358e6a857e78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50 > > times more energy returned per dollar of investment > > compared to solar cell technology. I'd like to believe > > that, but I remain a tad skeptical. > Then compute how much 200 acres of solar cells will cost... > > Jones Repeating the conclusion of my previous post: I guess when it comes down to the basics, [generating] five to ten times more "energy returned per dollar" would be nothing to sneeze at either. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_a3fdc048833af36539f4358e6a857e78 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50
> > times more energy returned per dollar of investment
> > compared to solar cell technology. I'd like to believe
> > that, but I remain a tad skeptical.

> Then compute how much 200 acres of solar cells will cost...
>
> Jones

Repeating the conclusion of my previous post: I guess when it comes down to= the basics, [generating] five to ten times more "energy returned per dolla= r" would be nothing to sneeze at either.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

--=_a3fdc048833af36539f4358e6a857e78-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 09:50:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34GntFJ027457; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:49:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34GnqPt027437; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:49:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:49:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Q2QfQ7oi5PNk2McQ3JhzcEQg36i/xNcPj00o2xMP/+KWspnrG1W91Cyu5dTfaL7R; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007434164947881@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 10:49:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940eb3e1c72720144d93d5e68c8f771971d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.23 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74234 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of ponds, Jones. For spending a lazy afternoon on a dairy lagoon where the algae bloom, fed by wash-down nutrients and CO2 from Anerobic digestion of biomass sediment. http://maps.google.com/maps?li=rwp&q=2295+CR+H,+CLOVIS,+NM+88101&ie=UTF8&t=h &om=0&z=18&ll=34.588589,-103.180574&spn=0.001762,0.005375&iwloc=addr Jones Beene wrote. > > > These cells might achieve 40% at noon in July after being cleaned, yet > only 10% at 9 am in December with the normal coating of grime which > silicon picks up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are > extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and plumbing (for CO2). > > NREL has reported tank grown mixed algae strains which can surpass the > 40% efficency figure anyway, and generally algae will continue to > multiply for several hours after the sun goes down. > > The only comparison which counts in the least - therefore, is this: > > How much net energy, averaged over a full year, can be captured and > stored per dollar of investment, less incremental costs. > > Under these criteria, which are the only ones which matter, it would not > surprise any expert if the advantage of algoil over advanced silicon > solar-cells turns out to be in the range of 50 times more energy > returned per dollar of investment. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 11:24:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34INrUP012441; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:23:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34INpip012421; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:23:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:23:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HiaiArUABSP2r1bafPffr+o8X5bXkigIMO7FGTTiaplPfHH/8q4sAFBec/rhIyp/9P4uftHiR9SbsJIvsrFd514SAs57zj3ACMbbQvmcdAaoSrv6L1wRnUc44TYh7F9ttVuDXrdOiCeNeYibfv/1I62GPMlcbasTV9lItvL3q5M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HuwVhs7W27+/H+DSSGLu+uoI73xlGBbCCyLBhQ7a6FFYMhnRuQW1ZThjrt7JtHwYMMRzGOn9XGefryjfjyhN0LduDvtxqtsbYJWPK4/Q2ZxvpXlkeqeGYUlFB7tQzE+NqRDCdMO6I1EuiMjGPDaL9zcsQVS4SYq1E7FQD069zEQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:23:49 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070404114439.0038c9a0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070403165804.90DE83FA206@mail2.mx.core.com> <893758.31916.qm@web35001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070403133232.036b2500@mindspring.com> <46133C88.2080709@usfamily.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404114439.0038c9a0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74235 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually, it was Alstom's attempt to market the TGV to the Chinese. BTW, did you see the article in today's paper (AJC) about American Maglev? http://www.american-maglev.com/ They're building a test track in Powder Springs. I think I'm signing up to go see it. They claim they can build it for $15M/mi. MARTA takes about $75M per mile. The Siemen's maglev takes about $100M/mi. Terry On 4/4/07, Jed Rothwell wrote:target. > > The French train with wheels was a tour de force, but not practical. > The track had to be adjusted to the nearest millimeter at a huge > cost. Maglev trains are much smoother and less vulnerable to problems > with the track, or bombs, I assume. A Maglev train in Japan exceeded > the new French record last year, 581 km/h versus 575 km/h. The French > record is for wheeled trains only. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 11:35:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34IZOvd018876; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:35:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34IZKWZ018838; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:35:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:35:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:35:15 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74236 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>However, what's not clear to me is what would algoil be doing under >>equivalent conditions at 9 am in December, when temperatures are >>hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less. > >The prime location for any algae pond and CO2 sytem is adjacent to a >regular power plant, where the hot water from cooling the steam >generators (waste heat) heats the pond. As far as I know, all of the present large-plans to grow algae use waste heat and CO2 from power plants. Some pilot plants have been built. It should be noted that there is a huge amount of waste heat from power generation, so this method could recycle a lot of carbon. As I said before, I expect the photosynthetic efficiency of algae in the artificial environment would be much better than the natural 2%. The waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this document: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf Waste heat from generators is a little less than the 28.1 quads shown here, because that figure transmission and distribution losses (T&D losses). Coal produces 22.7 quads. I wouldn't know, but I doubt that the overall conversion efficiency of the algae plant can convert more than the equivalent of 5% of the waste heat into biofuel with algae. It is not a direct, one-for-one conversion by any means, but anyway if it is 5%, that would be 1.4 quads. The U.S. uses about 99 quads per year. Transportation uses 26.6 quads, so at 5% conversion, algae biofuel would supply 5% of our transportation fuel, which is way more than corn ethanol would supply if it were an energy supply instead of an energy sink. This figure illustrates how transportation is by far the least efficient sector. Industrial use of energy is the most efficient sector. Overall, useful energy is 34.3 quads and rejected energy (waste heat, T&D losses and so on) is 57.8 quads. This shows how much leeway there is to save energy with better efficiency. I think efficiency of up to 60% is possible in many major applications, whereas transportation is mired at 20%, not far from where it was when Henry Ford brought out the model T. The overall energy efficiency of electric power generation could be vastly improved by using more cogeneration. For a big-picture look at energy, see: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/aer.pdf There is an interesting trend on page xxxv, Fig. 65. "In 1999, transportation sector carbon dioxide emissions overtook industrial sector emissions." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 14:08:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34L7s69023235; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:07:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34L7qSn023212; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:07:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:07:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ORMES questions Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 07:07:50 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> <4613BF97.2090300@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <4613BF97.2090300@usfamily.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:07:49 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74237 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:09:11 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Zachary Jones wrote: > >> Know who at U of M? >> >> Zak > > >Da! If I knew who he was, I'd look him up. > >Richard wrote; > > >Not hard to run into lotsa people like this at meetings but >where's=20 >the beef? > >It depends on whether or not someone can produce any gold doesn't it. If Whitegold plays the role in life that they claim it plays, then the = last thing we want to do with it is convert it into useless yellow metal. = Quite the contrary, we should be looking for ways of converting the useless yellow = metal into Whitegold powder so that it can work its magic in the life cycle. Going out on a limb, I would even go so far as to suggest that this may = be the original reason that the yellow metal became so prized in the first = place. The "gods" knew what to do with it, and therefore valued it. Our primitive ancestors, through their contacts with the "gods", could only comprehend = that it was "valuable", without understanding why, and that sense of "value" has continued to this day. Now the original reason has become so lost in the mists of time that = people are even prepared to extract the Whitegold powder remaining in the Earth, and convert it into metallic gold, because it's "valuable" - Doh! Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 14:42:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34Lg4Kt017152; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:42:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34Lg18G017110; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:42:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:42:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 07:41:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:41:58 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74238 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:35:15 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Jones Beene wrote: > >>>However, what's not clear to me is what would algoil be doing under=20 >>>equivalent conditions at 9 am in December, when temperatures are=20 >>>hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less. >> >>The prime location for any algae pond and CO2 sytem is adjacent to a=20 >>regular power plant, where the hot water from cooling the steam=20 >>generators (waste heat) heats the pond. > >As far as I know, all of the present large-plans to grow algae use=20 >waste heat and CO2 from power plants. Some pilot plants have been built. > >It should be noted that there is a huge amount of waste heat from=20 >power generation, so this method could recycle a lot of carbon. As I=20 >said before, I expect the photosynthetic efficiency of algae in the=20 >artificial environment would be much better than the natural 2%. The=20 >waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat=20 >generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this document: > >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf Why is the "Unit cost" in $/kW as opposed to $/kWh? Is this a mistake, or= are they actually talking about power plant construction costs? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 14:57:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34LvhmV012570; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:57:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34Lvg3I012550; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:57:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:57:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:57:38 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74239 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat > >generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this document: > > > >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf > >Why is the "Unit cost" in $/kW as opposed to $/kWh? Is this a mistake, or are >they actually talking about power plant construction costs? Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the NREL document. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 15:58:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34MwLAH008603; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:58:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34MwJQr008589; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:58:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:58:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=JLEwd4NwGSNfxxGkGinyCJ0BxOUavwMzkclI4DW2GkmSgoXNQ9sLeXpZ5YXB0C3xwe2zqqo+ukPcaeFNCgeL6BDmMd/QsBJMBGZLu71QuURl0YO+iz/ojvOajt+An15ubwlGLUbedGQjbrr01hcG54dQ+TaBy6YLsuvXHEz28Eo= ; X-YMail-OSG: MrdF8BgVM1n_YvBtZC3CQP0.s9hNA5_.QduQI.fdkaT36dYgY8mlrp6S9NujguzNJ4JI9b957yOAmn7Jt4Ke7boXOod9XewZUd7gzV6MFj.g1LUzmb9M7l_GAt1PFw-- Message-ID: <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:58:12 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74240 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall: "Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant" http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html Global Green Solutions has agreed to fund a pilot plant demo-ing the technology developed by Valcent Products for an algae system that converts CO2 to biofuel oil. There are 5-6 outfits with similar algae biofuel technology in the USA, including one known as MIT. There could be many more overseas. There are also ramifications for going much further than this story indicates. MUCH further - if you read between the lines. If the system lived up to best-case expectations, then in theory any present day coal-fired plant with enough acreage for ponds could actually harvest enough algae to need very little or NO coal and become very close to carbon neutral and self-sufficient ! This is a very optimistic reading of present results, granted, but it does explain rationale for why the huge influx of VC funding is going into something brand new and into buying up coal utilities at extremely high premiums. Note also that most of these utilities being bought have large adjoining acreage. This GGS system yields a constant supply of algae during day time, which is harvested and processed to remove the oil, which will sell for FAR more than the coal which was burned to make it... or ... leaving a residue of some 50% by weight, which can also be sold for a variety of commercial products (animal feed) OR converted by enzymes into butanol ... OR burned in place of much of the coal! The system can be conceived in theory as a closed-loop producing all the fuel it needs - or at least producing products more valuable than the fuel which is burned. It is win-win, and the economics are staggering. Valcent has extrapolated data from its test bed facility to conclude that production yields of up to 150,000 gallons (3,570 barrels) of bio-oil per acre per year are possible at a cost of about $20 per barrel. By comparison, soybeans yield about 68 gallons per acre and palm about 635 gallons per acre. This would seem like so much hyperbole, yet other studies from competitors are similar. This is not even the highest claim which can be found (in gallons per acre). Yes - let's be clear that it is a big mistake to extrapolate from a best-case result to an average result over an extended period. But understand that this plant is based on only solar algae during daytime, so that 1/3 of the breeding time is underutilized. If the the technology emerges such that the strains of algae are hybridized to be robust using only heat and CO2, such as those under development which have been using single cell organisms hybridized from deep ocean vents - then it may be possible to increase the average yield up to nearer to the best case. If the system were operated on the scale of an average farm - with 1000 acres of these algae ponds, then the value of the oil produced at 150,000 gallons per acre (best case) is at least $300,000,000 and if the fuel for the power plant which supplies the CO2 comes from the non-oil algae residue, with some added coal perhaps, then the electrical power would be essentially free of incremental cost, and the whole system much closer to carbon neutral. OK. No one is suffering under the delusion that this can happens soon, but the fact that it has happened at all on a smaller scale - and in the best case scenario- in a real pilot plant- this is indicative of why so much venture capital is headed into this technology. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 15:59:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34MxTQQ022277; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:59:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34MxRka022225; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:59:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:59:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 08:59:24 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 4 Apr 2007 22:59:23 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74241 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:57:38 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> >waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat >> >generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this = document: >> > >> >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf >> >>Why is the "Unit cost" in $/kW as opposed to $/kWh? Is this a mistake, = or are >>they actually talking about power plant construction costs? > >Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the=20 >NREL document. In each of the diagrams, under each "fuel type", e.g. for CRUDE = OIL/GASOLINE they have a Unit Cost ($/kW) : 1000, Total Cost ($/kW delivered) 8505. This makes no sense to me. Gasoline doesn't cost $1000/kW. The very = notion is pointless. It also doesn't cost $1000/kWh, unless we have been subject to rampant hyperinflation overnight, and nobody told me. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 16:40:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l34Ne1Mt022443; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 16:40:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l34Ne01T022416; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 16:40:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 16:39:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: "Vortex" Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 18:39:42 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74242 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: CD with 300 Multiphysics Presentations Status: O X-Status: I'm forwarding the following link to Vortex. Electrochemistry and Electrostatics and Magnetostatics are some of the topics included. Maybe there is something useful here. It's "free." Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com **************************************************************** The User Presentation CD is a compilation of slides, papers and models presented at multiphysics conferences worldwide. Act now to receive the CD! Request your complimentary copy at http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php CD Highlights ************* - 272 papers from the proceedings - 153 user presentations - 32 keynote presentations - 30 ready-to-run COMSOL models Applications covered ******************** AC/DC Systems Acoustics Bioscience and Bioengineering Earth Science Education Electrochemical Engineering Electrostatics and Magnetostatics Fluid-Structure Interactions Fluid Dynamics Heat Transfer and Thermo-Mechanics MEMS and Microfluidics Materials Science and Nanotechnology Optics and Photonics Plasma Physics EHD and MHD Porous Media Flow Process and Chemical Engineering RF and Microwave Engineering Reaction Engineering and Reactor Design Semiconductor Devices Structural Mechanics Transport Phenomena Visit http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php to order your free User Presentations CD. Best regards, Bernt Nilsson COMSOL, Inc. PS. Feel free to forward this offer to your colleagues so they can also receive the CD. Thanks. Dale Kipp Director of MatWeb 2020 Kraft Drive Blacksburg, VA 24060 USA (540) 552-5300 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 17:31:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l350VNmo006877; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:31:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l350VBY9006807; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:31:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 17:31:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=K8d2V1g3h5/cDBOQWE1bHcD9VhXlI79FYI/UA87cqSTi15tmELOjV4TJe+Le5uF1; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <2732745.1175733066627.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:31:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cd947acf19eecfd7de6a3445f2e1c82b0323b265bd30e5b3b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.26 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74243 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk writes: >>Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the >>NREL document. > >In each of the diagrams, under each "fuel type", e.g. for CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE >they have a Unit Cost ($/kW) : 1000, Total Cost ($/kW delivered) 8505. Ah, you are talking about the diagrams on pages 2 - 15. The "$/kW" cost is for capital equipment, as listed in Appendix C, p. 15. For example, in column 2 it shows that an advanced Central Baseload Fossil Plant is expected to cost $1,200 per kW, and footnote 1 says this is based on: Electricity Supply: Supporting Analysis for the National Energy Strategy" SR/NES/90-03, DOE/EIA, 1991 EPRI, Technical Assessment Guide (TAG), Vol. 1,1986 A bit out of date. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 18:43:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l351hO0G018406; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 18:43:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l351hKNv018299; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 18:43:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 18:43:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c77723$cf5ba940$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:43:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74244 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote.. There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall: "Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant" http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html Howdy Jones, Good insight, I passed on your comments to a party inside LCRA . The Lower Colorado River Authority ( LCRA) is a state of Texas entity that has some coal fired power plants including three units in my back yard. They made an announcement they were finally working on stack emissions and would build a 4th stack to scrub the baddest.. should be ready by year 2010..whoopie. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 20:22:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l353MN7F003119; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:22:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l353MKbh003085; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:22:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:22:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:22:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2732745.1175733066627.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <2732745.1175733066627.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 5 Apr 2007 03:22:16 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74245 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:31:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00): Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk writes: > >>>Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the=20 >>>NREL document. >> >>In each of the diagrams, under each "fuel type", e.g. for CRUDE = OIL/GASOLINE >>they have a Unit Cost ($/kW) : 1000, Total Cost ($/kW delivered) 8505. > >Ah, you are talking about the diagrams on pages 2 - 15. The "$/kW" cost = is for capital equipment, as listed in Appendix C, p. 15. For example, in= column 2 it shows that an advanced Central Baseload Fossil Plant is = expected to cost $1,200 per kW, and footnote 1 says this is based on: That makes sense for an electric power plant, where the cost of capital equipment is well known, but not much sense for e.g. CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE, = where the cost can the calculated any of a thousand different ways, depending = on what one decides to include or leave out. It would have made a lot more sense to do the entire comparison based on = cost / unit energy, because the energy suppliers already include their own costs (including plant costs) when they calculate the price they are going to = charge. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 20:25:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l353PK9P006595; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:25:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l353PIAu006570; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:25:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:25:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:25:15 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2vq8131vm1ctslr39opn6iqk9j159i4kv7@4ax.com> References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <001001c77723$cf5ba940$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001001c77723$cf5ba940$c905a8c0@xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 5 Apr 2007 03:25:14 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <22ScQ.A.mmB.ewGFGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74246 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to R.C.Macaulay's message of Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:43:28 -0500: Hi Richard, [snip] > > >Jones wrote.. >There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall: > >"Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant" > >http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html > > >Howdy Jones, > >Good insight, I passed on your comments to a party inside LCRA . > >The Lower Colorado River Authority ( LCRA) is a state of Texas entity = that=20 >has some coal fired power plants including three units in my back yard.= =20 >They made an announcement they were finally working on stack emissions = and=20 >would build a 4th stack to scrub the baddest.. should be ready by year=20 >2010..whoopie. With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, = and they will have closed down altogether. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 4 23:13:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l356CshH020362; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 23:12:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l356Cq55020329; Wed, 4 Apr 2007 23:12:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 23:12:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46149360.9060704@usfamily.net> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 01:12:48 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ORMES questions References: <461113F1.9080409@usfamily.net> <4613BF97.2090300@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74247 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to thomas malloy's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:09:11 -0500: >Hi, >[snip] > >>Zachary Jones wrote: >> >> >>>Know who at U of M? >>> >>>Zak >>> >> >>Da! If I knew who he was, I'd look him up. >> >>Richard wrote; >> >> >>>Not hard to run into lotsa people like this at meetings but >where's >>> >>the beef? >> >>It depends on whether or not someone can produce any gold doesn't it. >> > >If Whitegold plays the role in life that they claim it plays, then the last thing we want to do with it is convert it into useless yellow metal. > > >Now the original reason has become so lost in the mists of time that people are even prepared to extract the Whitegold powder remaining in the Earth, and convert it into metallic gold, because it's "valuable" - Doh! > > If you have some of that useless yellow metal and desire to convert it into white powder form, read David Hudson's patent. I had a copy on my old computer, it's out there somewhere. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 00:15:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l357FFtu002272; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:15:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l357FDeW002246; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:15:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 00:15:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=piDnnbg3hZ52DOUNLTj7Jbq1cizxpVlJQa4FXpqjYbtjoucPLszzsjC/JU1PrHPWtdGJznBkn9DdeHiZ6aKIeQUhKTnU4nkGeiRdXXLm4OIlTWeEo+BAsLYyje/D3yDO8WI4gtrYWy0MAwJ2uhTdJjxiWFNWrKIfyRP14oWTXHA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ZetSMSEkOpvMctjI/ZM9IfpJUCdpAc7CJ+kddTgtpNPZRvNXz6yepUb2g3Ldz6Ve8xfGznggahfLUQ0461jzQ98AawFIAXxkFbRIASTdtijqvsQaZ0xEYvqtNRy7UZXiGTwKRsAmHLCGh5aC94gTpYn+zCDkPG4EG0CdW7BrBcc= Message-ID: <357653710704050015s313ce897wd5db29552aea24df@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:15:06 +0200 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: CD with 300 Multiphysics Presentations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_44812_13124554.1175757306262" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: fa67688294ccc551 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74248 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_44812_13124554.1175757306262 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The problem is that Comsol Multiphysics costs like $10 000. Has anyone here worked with free FEM software like OpenFEM or FOI Edge? David On 4/5/07, OrionWorks wrote: > > I'm forwarding the following link to Vortex. > > Electrochemistry and Electrostatics and Magnetostatics are some of the > topics included. > > Maybe there is something useful here. > > It's "free." > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > **************************************************************** > > The User Presentation CD is a compilation of slides, papers and models > presented at multiphysics conferences worldwide. Act now to receive the > CD! > > Request your complimentary copy at > http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php > > CD Highlights > ************* > - 272 papers from the proceedings > - 153 user presentations > - 32 keynote presentations > - 30 ready-to-run COMSOL models > > Applications covered > ******************** > AC/DC Systems > Acoustics > Bioscience and Bioengineering > Earth Science > Education > Electrochemical Engineering > Electrostatics and Magnetostatics > Fluid-Structure Interactions > Fluid Dynamics > Heat Transfer and Thermo-Mechanics > MEMS and Microfluidics > Materials Science and Nanotechnology > Optics and Photonics > Plasma Physics EHD and MHD > Porous Media Flow > Process and Chemical Engineering > RF and Microwave Engineering > Reaction Engineering and Reactor Design > Semiconductor Devices > Structural Mechanics > Transport Phenomena > > Visit http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php > to order your free User Presentations CD. > > Best regards, > > Bernt Nilsson > COMSOL, Inc. > > PS. Feel free to forward this offer to your colleagues so they can also > receive the CD. Thanks. > > > Dale Kipp > Director of MatWeb > 2020 Kraft Drive > Blacksburg, VA 24060 USA > (540) 552-5300 > > > > ------=_Part_44812_13124554.1175757306262 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
The problem is that Comsol Multiphysics costs like $10 000. Has anyone here worked with free FEM software like OpenFEM or FOI Edge?
 
David

 
On 4/5/07, OrionWorks <svj@orionworks.com> wrote:
I'm forwarding the following link to Vortex.

Electrochemistry and Electrostatics and Magnetostatics are some of the
topics included.

Maybe there is something useful here.

It's "free."

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

****************************************************************

The User Presentation CD is a compilation of slides, papers and models
presented at multiphysics conferences worldwide. Act now to receive the CD!

Request your complimentary copy at
http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php

CD Highlights
*************
- 272 papers from the proceedings
- 153 user presentations
- 32 keynote presentations
- 30 ready-to-run COMSOL models

Applications covered
********************
AC/DC Systems
Acoustics
Bioscience and Bioengineering
Earth Science
Education
Electrochemical Engineering
Electrostatics and Magnetostatics
Fluid-Structure Interactions
Fluid Dynamics
Heat Transfer and Thermo-Mechanics
MEMS and Microfluidics
Materials Science and Nanotechnology
Optics and Photonics
Plasma Physics EHD and MHD
Porous Media Flow
Process and Chemical Engineering
RF and Microwave Engineering
Reaction Engineering and Reactor Design
Semiconductor Devices
Structural Mechanics
Transport Phenomena

Visit http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php
to order your free User Presentations CD.

Best regards,

Bernt Nilsson
COMSOL, Inc.

PS. Feel free to forward this offer to your colleagues so they can also
receive the CD. Thanks.


Dale Kipp
Director of MatWeb
2020 Kraft Drive
Blacksburg, VA 24060 USA
(540) 552-5300




------=_Part_44812_13124554.1175757306262-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 04:10:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35BAQGl022629; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 04:10:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35BAKBx022576; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 04:10:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 04:10:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Vjb3sdlFONqxIdN+k2BPTLrgy6dHikfd5Ir8ihhlWeL+2lGCzKQ12s4zqrsk3Ijwck06MHvh3d54J7Xg80p3L0QrzLMRwxjCupA9zgbrCPtLnuhJLCbBAsOIS0iyc0RVBTMtVstsWz2si6C5Bb0e4ZIffW8nzO3Gk7pr9DIaMZA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BFU5Aub/dKzPawIVt4yYQYbLDy4t2OBRyWScr6p2McnSbHf9uD25iggcCUlXASg7TkY4NgfZpyYv+wRv86Zoxf3EbtdT3krXvtd6V2xcbBMiIxrev3jKr3y+vjfkdR8lnMidOA0i2dnS+Jrt7XSQ/xhbr6exbifZAuzJPzwnGuw= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:10:16 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: <2vq8131vm1ctslr39opn6iqk9j159i4kv7@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <001001c77723$cf5ba940$c905a8c0@xptower> <2vq8131vm1ctslr39opn6iqk9j159i4kv7@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74249 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, and they > will have closed down altogether. With which technology? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 05:57:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35CvPls008438; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 05:57:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35CvMTj008320; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 05:57:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 05:57:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c77781$f95fcc40$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <001001c77723$cf5ba940$c905a8c0@xptower> <2vq8131vm1ctslr39opn6iqk9j159i4kv7@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:57:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74250 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote.. > With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, and > they > will have closed down altogether. >With which technology? >Terry Howdy Vorts, Year 2010, provided it arrives on time is only 2 1/2 years off. The USA, provided it makes it another 2 1/2 years, won.t even be caught standing in line when the train arrives. For a scenario of where we will be in commercial fusion in 2 1/2 years, imagine hurricane Rita/ Katrina and the mass panic exodus of 2 million people fleeing Houston that day. Absolute chaos, and panic, every man for himself. If you believe the leadership will provide, just remember the people standing on the freeway overpasses in NOLA for 3 days waiting for help. Ah! FEMA.. so secretive that the public isn't given the names of the local officials. So ineffective they can't even spend $ 50-150 billion dollars .. even a dumb college girl can do that. Show me where DOE or DOD has done a better job than FEMA and I will believe fusion will be waiting for me in 2010. Get a bicycle, a wood stove and some chickens. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 06:41:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35Df91w008407; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:41:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35Df4xS008348; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:41:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:41:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405093825.03653c60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:40:53 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza In-Reply-To: References: <2732745.1175733066627.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74251 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >That makes sense for an electric power plant, where the cost of capital >equipment is well known, but not much sense for e.g. CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE, where >the cost can the calculated any of a thousand different ways, >depending on what >one decides to include or leave out. I am sure industry experts have a standard metric that covers most costs. It would be impossible to run an oil business if there were a thousand different ways to estimate costs. As shown in footnote 14, the $1000 rough estimate is based on a DOE "staff communication." I am sure it is not $100 and not $10,000. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 07:49:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35En8aR004942; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:49:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35En5Mr004917; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:49:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:49:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:48:59 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please In-Reply-To: <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74252 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene quotes someone: >Valcent has extrapolated data from its test bed facility to conclude >that production yields of up to 150,000 gallons (3,570 barrels) of >bio-oil per acre per year are possible at a cost of about $20 per barrel. Oh come now, that's absurd. Let us have a reality check here please! Let's assume the system is a black hole that absorbs every joule of sunlight and converts it into oil. 1 acre = 4,047 m^2. Sunlight falling on 1 m^2 at the equator under ideal conditions produces about 1 kW for ~6 hours per day (insolation in Africa); 4.2 kWh/day. For one acre, that's 17 MWh/day. See: http://www.apricus.com/html/solar_energy_calculator.htm Divide by 24 hour for continuous output and it comes to 0.708 MW/acre. 1000 acres, which this writer claims is enough for a power plant, collects enough for continuous 708 MW operation with a black hole collector. But we are talking about North America, not the Sahara desert, and it is inconceivable that the thing is 100% efficient at conversion. A pond filled with algae is not a black hole; it reflects plenty of sunlight. I doubt the overall process of conversion is even 2% by the time you process the stuff into oil, but even at 5% conversion efficiency in Africa you are talking about a 35 MW generator, which is a lot smaller than most coal-fired plants. Substitute North American insolation (4.3) and with 5% overall efficiency and you get a 25 MW plant. >If the the technology emerges such that the strains of algae are >hybridized to be robust using only heat and CO2, such as those under >development which have been using single cell organisms hybridized >from deep ocean vents - then it may be possible to increase the >average yield up to nearer to the best case. That would be a perpetual motion machine! You have to have energy input into the system, which can only be sunlight in this case. In the ocean vents, the input is geothermal heat. >If the system were operated on the scale of an average farm - with >1000 acres of these algae ponds, then the value of the oil produced >at 150,000 gallons per acre (best case) is at least $300,000,000 . . . . 150,000 gallons per acre per year?!? With 4.3 insolation, an acre collects 12 MWh per day, assuming a black hole collector. Multiply by 365 days per year and you get 4,380 MWh per year. That converts to 120,000 gallons of gasoline per year, but again, this is not a black hole. In real life it converts to 6,000 gallons. (Assuming they have a fantastically effective 50% collection and conversion it would be 60,000 gallons -- still way short of 150,000.) I did this by several different methods, but you can cheat and convert kWh to gallons the easy way here: http://www.mhi-inc.com/Converter/Energy%20Converter.htm Also, $300,000,000 divided by 150,000 would be $2,000 per gallon. This must mean $300 million for the 1000 acres, and the writer assumes gasoline is worth $2 per gallon, or $84 per barrel. Actually, gasoline is worth about $1 per gallon wholesale, and you get only 5%, so it comes to $7,500 per acre ($7.5 million for the 1,000 acres.) The best legal cash crop in the world today is tobacco, which is worth about $2,000 to $4,000 per acre, so this is pretty darn good. Bear in mind that coal cost about 6 times cheaper than oil per BTU of heat, so if you burn the oil in the generator, instead of using it for transportation fuel, the cash value per acre falls to about $1,300 per year. However, no one in the U.S. would burn oil to generate electricity. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 08:06:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35F6V2t014851; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 08:06:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35F6TWg014829; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 08:06:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 08:06:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=IVP5nNtU/YKhFzkjD5PxOib3iKnew733YNIMsAaa3UtfmS9cg1lcPk8+Np21xWOkl3ceAb/CgUDLH5nNNEBS8ZQ2eK+VPz4xIo1e833SUrEORhT9cDHVpkdWUzlp3baKiKhHzTTY4qMK+4uj7icmwAVkWk74nno2bJjle85HIls= ; X-YMail-OSG: EAPqiOoVM1kZNpiXzrj4ycwRthhVgVQGygZvxuAfwquY4PKdYShb8_y_F_CHKV66zb6Jk8NKNA-- Message-ID: <4615106A.4050703@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 08:06:18 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74253 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria? Status: O X-Status: Digressing even further into speculation on the bio-economics of alternative energy solutions (closer to being carbon-neutral) ... and considering those which are available on a near-term horizon, needing no further major technological breakthroughs... Let's say you operate a coal-burning steam plant which supplies electricity to an average size city, like Peoria. If there are 100,000 customers (homes and businesses) and each is spending one thousand-per for power, then you - and the public utility- which owns the distribution and billing system will split the $100,000,000 in revenue - and the split is probably close to 50/50. A coal power plant typically would spend half of its net income for fuel and coal is cheap in Illinois - less than $40 per ton, so this plant might be buying $25 million of coal (600,000+ tons) with which to convert at about 40% efficiency into one gigawatt hour - to get the $100 million in revenue (at a dime per kWhr). Since the carbon picks up two oxygens, when burned - the plant gives off over 2 million tons of CO2 and lots of waste heat (gigawatt+) and lots of noxious (or yummy) ash, NOx and sulfur. Enter a biotech company. At this point what was formerly waste - the CO2 becomes the power plant's BIGGEST ASSET !! Since Peoria has a river (the Illinois) which has plenty of 'nutritious' water (i.e. funky, which algae love), and if the plant has a few thousand acres of buffer, or can buy an adjoining farm, then perhaps at least one thousand can be put into algae farming. How does all of this look on the bottom line? If the plant can convert the waste heat and exhaust using solar in the daytime, and only heat at night - then they can convert the 2 million tons of CO2 which they emit plus what extra 'raw material' is normally in air (since the natural CO2 over a thousand acres to a height of 10 meters, say) is substantial and therefor the amount of algae (a hybridized oil-bearing strain) which can be derived from this is in the range of 50,000,000 gallons. There will also be about 75,000 tons of non-oil biomass left over, which can be burned in place of some of the coal. Move onto the bottom line then, and the plant has increased its revenue from $50 million for the electricity sold to the utility fully threefold- to $150,000,000 including the value of the biodiesel, which is about what would be used locally - if all the private and commercial transportation in that area converted to biodiesel - and at the same time has reduced its cost for coal by 15% since it is burning the biomass left over from the oil extraction. Of course, the capital costs of installing the plumbing, algae harvesting, and oil extraction equipment must be depreciated, as well as the increased labor costs - but unemployment is a problem there as it is rust-belt so the operator could probably get the city to guarantee loans. ERGO - even in Peroia, this concept "will play"... rather loudly one suspects ...(once the novelty of the whole idea sinks in). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 08:39:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35Fd6P0015563; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 08:39:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35Fd4fr015542; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 08:39:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 08:39:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=W47KbHOqamXgZqHZVf2y4slFCQJA7O/6+9Wcuq3rm+vw94WjCvfEzsA8T99eYeHNb7zS83whwtcnihRElAUm3M+/spuCU+EhGTHqmgd7gDkHgCkHUOqhPD/MfgwgdgagwsW9yzIpd8Ds2ju82W1HIZwp7Xiw4jdArPB/I494ej0= ; X-YMail-OSG: ifHjaZAVM1ka3af7h5J_u2L9lDAZRDAfFj1IAC1H1JRzSIY5ocnBSGkdOKg4LFxlZ7qoYWUGpg-- Message-ID: <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 08:38:54 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0cIx8B.A.uyD.XgRFGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74254 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Oh come now, that's absurd. Let us have a reality check here please! > Let's assume the system is a black hole that absorbs every joule of > sunlight and converts it into oil. > 1 acre = 4,047 m^2. Your logical error here --and it invalidates your whole argument is the assumption that algae are merely converting sunlight into energy. Wrong. Or should I say partially wrong. Sunlight is a catalyst for growth and is advantageous, but single-cell life will proliferate in total darkness with only heat and CO2. The "photo" in photosynthesis means "photonic" but heat (IR) is also photonic and heat has been totally neglected in your argument. Which is to be expected, since most of your mindset is based on the erroneous conclusions of whats-his-name, and he fell prey to the same logical error. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 09:04:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35G4Kkp032274; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:04:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35G4Ipx032243; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:04:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:04:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405115355.037a9858@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 12:03:30 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please In-Reply-To: <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74255 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Your logical error here --and it invalidates your whole argument is >the assumption that algae are merely converting sunlight into energy. Wrong. > >Or should I say partially wrong. Sunlight is a catalyst for growth >and is advantageous, but single-cell life will proliferate in total >darkness with only heat and CO2 I know that. As you said, that would be for the non-photosynthetic species. However, this is not a perpetual motion machine. You cannot go indefinitely with no energy inputs. The algae converts waste heat back into carbon compounds, recovering some of the lost energy. It is waste heat from coal, which is ~60% to ~70% of the starting heat. Assume the plants convert 10% of that heat back into carbon compounds, which would be phenomenally good. That 6% the waste heat. So you are reducing power plant energy consumption by 6%. (I expect it would be more like 1.2% but make it 6%.) That's good, but there are plenty of other ways to improve efficiency by that extent, and they cost a lot less. There is no way a biological species can convert heat or light into a chemical species at better rates than that. Assume that other species of algae in the same ponds absorb sunlight, and you get a better rate of return, although it takes a bigger pond, as I noted. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 09:07:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35G7LEp003700; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:07:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35G7JWi003662; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:07:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:07:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405113516.03653c60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 12:07:17 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria? In-Reply-To: <4615106A.4050703@pacbell.net> References: <4615106A.4050703@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8RJTdD.A.C5.36RFGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74256 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Since Peoria has a river (the Illinois) which has plenty of >'nutritious' water (i.e. funky, which algae love), and if the plant >has a few thousand acres of buffer, or can buy an adjoining farm, >then perhaps at least one thousand can be put into algae farming. I believe it would take more like 10,000 acres for a small sized 250 MW plant, assuming much of the input energy comes from photosynthesis. Otherwise, as I mentioned, you get back at most 6% of the energy from coal. I will grant, it shows up as liquid fuel which is worth ~6 times more than coal. It may be competitive with coal liquefaction and combined cycle generators. Farmland in Illinois costs between $3,000 and $5,000 per acre (or up to $10,000 for prime land), so this would be a $40 million investment for the land alone, not to mention the processing equipment. I expect the equipment would bring the cost up to $140 to $200 million. That's a good deal; a 300 MW combined cycle generator plant costs about $200 million. However it is not nirvana. 10,000 acres is a lot of land, by the way. The U.S. has roughly 800,000 MW of coal-fired generators. I think they produce the equivalent of around 400,000 MW of nuclear capacity, because they are not run at full capacity full-time. Anyway, we are talking about something on the order of 3 million acres, or 4,700 square miles. Around 2/3rds of the land area of New Jersey. This is an interesting idea, but it does not help to oversell it. Let us not assume that conversion efficiency from sunlight to the final oil product is 100% efficient, or that you can run a power plant indefinitely without input energy. A more realistic evaluation is called for, and whoever wrote that analysis is not good at basic analysis. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 09:20:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35GK2oW004888; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:20:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35GJ5Tc002579; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:19:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:19:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405120852.0373e040@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 12:18:58 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405115355.037a9858@mindspring.com> References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405115355.037a9858@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0prAmD.A.Mo.4FSFGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74257 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >It is waste heat from coal, which is ~60% to ~70% of the starting >heat. Assume the plants convert 10% of that heat back into carbon >compounds, which would be phenomenally good. That 6% the waste heat. 6% of the starting heat, I mean. A 6% improvement in coal plant production would extremely valuable. Even 1.2% is worth doing. I cannot evaluate whether this method would be more cost-effective than other schemes to improve coal plant efficiency. Any method you use ends up reducing CO2 emissions. Replacing 40-year old coal plants with ultra-modern version will probably reduce emissions per MHW by more than 6%, and certainly more than 1.2%. >Assume that other species of algae in the same ponds absorb >sunlight, and you get a better rate of return, although it takes a >bigger pond, as I noted. Actually, with heat alone and no photosynthesis, you might pull this off with less than 1000 acres. All of the algae CO2 capture projects that have been implemented until now use photosynthesis. The waste heat is used to enhance photosynthesis, especially in winter. Some of these projects are on a large scale. They reduce collection area by using vertically hung plastic bags full of algae glop, rather than flat ponds. Still, none of them captures 100% of the light. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 09:24:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35GOCwx011850; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:24:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35GOAg8011826; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:24:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 09:24:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=pLcQF3ZrUuDLC3/hWBSPaK2Nj5dmG55Cfd0VQ32wwu4efRRMT6nFE3MSZ0pjuddR/AfpwEePIzGm1Px1VbB7PVbcRxfyZ1rErL+QJXfp17fCzrmh5O0zp9Xd4GnsUbS7ssok/Bzuldn98z02kp3rmR6uax0r7dZa4KbWyqb3QJ4= ; X-YMail-OSG: ZSUww4QVM1kVSNijEue_3DCywNBxT3lprA.iutfJfKzAuuoKtyYeiyZn0NCqDq8aBnC.676Hrw-- Message-ID: <461522A2.1030603@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:24:02 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74258 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The "photo" in photosynthesis means "photonic" but heat (IR) is also > photonic and heat has been totally neglected in your argument. It has been over two years since photosynthesis experts from Arizona State University found and documented photosynthesis taking place deep within the Pacific Ocean. Other have claimed this same things for 20 years going back to Cousteau, but DNA analysis was not available then. The team isolated a bacterium that doesn't live off sunlight but uses IR coming from hydrothermal vents nearly 8000 ft deep vents off of Mexico. Using DNA analysis the team classified the microbe as a member of the green sulfur bacteria family. The fact that the organism is obligate means it solely relies on photosynthesis to live. "This is startling in the sense that you do not expect to find photosynthesis in a region of the world that is so completely dark" .... Coal fired power plants, as it turns out, emit lots of sulfur and other ash which is toxic to humans by not to genetically engineered strains. They also have copious amounts of excess heat. Given the profit motive, and the need for such hybridized life-forms to flourish on what was formerly considered as waste, does anyone really doubt that this discovery has not already been put to use for engineering genetically modified biota, producing biofuels? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 10:32:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35HWXWk015038; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:32:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35HWV08015017; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:32:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:32:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405130711.03743c88@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:32:09 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405115355.037a9858@mindspring.com> References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405115355.037a9858@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-nWvXD.A.gqD.uKTFGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74259 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >The algae converts waste heat back into carbon compounds, recovering >some of the lost energy. That is stupid way to express the idea. It should be: The algae uses IR from the waste heat to synthesize carbon compounds, converting some waste heat back into high-grade potential chemical energy. It is unclear to me what the overall efficiency of this conversion process is. For plants using white sunlight, it is on the order of 1% or 2% as I said. For lettuce provided with only PAR in ideal growing conditions at the Japanese food factory, it can go up to ~15%, but you have to convert all of the light into the right wavelength. One source says: "The chlorosome of vent-dwelling green sulfur bacteria makes them the world champions at garnering photons." I assume that means it is somewhere up around 5% or 10%, but I do not know. Looking up green-sulfur bacteria energy efficiency, I found some sources that say: "The efficiency of energy transfer from carotenoid to bacteriochlorophyll a in the RC core complex was 23% at 6 K, and from the FMO-protein to the core it was 35%. . . ." I assume this describes a multi-stage process with 8% efficiency overall. In 1952, someone concluded: "These results are considered as support for the view that also in the bacterial photosyntheses the primary photochemical reaction consists in the photolysis of H2O, and that the chemical energy released during the oxidation of the electron donor is not utilized for CO2 assimilation. Hence the photosynthetic processes of the green sulfur bacteria are thermodynamically less efficient than is green plant photosynthesis." By the way, the initial "excitron" capture phase for any photosynthetic process is astoundingly efficient. If only we could make thermoelectric generators this good! These bacteria tolerate remarkably high temperatures. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 11:06:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35I6B9g003237; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:06:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35I6AG3003220; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:06:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:06:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405135430.036faa58@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 14:06:07 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74260 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Approaches for biological and biomimetic energy conversion Status: O X-Status: Now, here is a good paper -- which I hope is=20 technically accurate -- that explains a lot about=20 photosynthesis and plant efficiency: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/14/5251 David A. LaVan and Jennifer N. Cha, "Approaches=20 for biological and biomimetic energy conversion," PNAS QUOTES: "The average solar radiation available for a=20 flat-plate collector in the U.S. is 5 kW=B7h/m^2=20 per day (1 kW=B7h =3D 3.6 x 10^6 J). Conservatively,=20 100 million residences, each with an available=20 roof area of 90 m^2, receive 5 x 10^19 J of solar=20 energy, which is equal to half of the annual=20 energy consumption in the U.S. Typical=20 commercially available PV cells offer nominal=20 efficiencies of 15%, with higher levels=20 attainable up to a theoretical efficiency for=20 silicon PV cells of 32%; however, a significant=20 fraction of the installation costs are related to=20 infrastructure, such as supporting framework,=20 wiring, power inverters, and grid connections.=20 For example, in a study published in 2003 of a=20 35-kW PV array (2), the total reported cost was=20 $239,945 ($6.86/W), with infrastructure=20 comprising 35=9640% of the total amount. This=20 system saved $2,678 per year in energy costs=20 compared with the preinstallation expenditures.=20 If, hypothetically, the same installation could=20 be made with cells at 1/10 the current price and=20 32% efficiency but the same infrastructure costs,=20 the system would cost $100,000 and save $8,000=20 per year. Based on these values, it is apparent=20 that improving efficiency and reducing device=20 costs is vital to using PV technologies but that=20 addressing infrastructure costs will also be necessary. . . ." ". . . For comparison, the high-energy photons in=20 the UV region have energies in the range of=20 3.10=964.28 eV. The difference in energy between=20 the absorbed photon and the electron donor is=20 lost as heat, just as the excess energy is lost=20 when a high-energy photon is absorbed by a=20 silicon PV cell. Most plants are not able to deal=20 with the excess energy of UV photons and often do=20 not absorb them at all. If these high-energy=20 photons were absorbed, they might reduce the=20 genetic stability of the plant's genome (6),=20 destroy the light-harvesting complex (7), or=20 induce apoptotic-like (programmed cell death)=20 changes (8). Photons of lower energies are also=20 not used for photosynthesis. It is possible to=20 calculate the energy efficiency of green plants,=20 given the spectral distribution of light at the=20 Earth's surface; the net energy has been shown to=20 have an upper bound of 9.2% (9). Because some of=20 this energy is consumed by the plant, a maximum=20 net efficiency of 5% is commonly reported (9=9611)." I have seen estimates of 1% to 2% for plants in=20 natural, year round conditions. This is not far=20 from the 5% to 9% for ideal conditions. The 1% is=20 for plants that grow in deserts and other harsh=20 environments. My estimate of 15% for the Japanese=20 food factory was with PAR light only, not natural=20 light. I assume this 9% applies to natural light. This paper does not mention green sulfur bacteria. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 11:39:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35Id944006510; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:39:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35Id6AH006462; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:39:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:39:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=50SZ3J0fndo82Zf3lMPR9zobVPB/sbu9GlYSKROKs0kYRhULLY1RimYrM7ebonic0E+wY2zjDrR1bLJmMY45l6WPzAmFjvZzKgfyb6EacEsi/esx6/CvRcJYRHVxL0gmFXatz12w6U4089gVSrhvXcJEj8gkdzZYR1id31MDYbE= ; X-YMail-OSG: C_fHYFIVM1ktUqjj22cLworZT2MGUR09TP6yStJahtMGmlAZnbeuyY6qu0IbKJeNi4ul8l_Phg-- Message-ID: <46154240.6040104@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 11:38:56 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria? References: <4615106A.4050703@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405113516.03653c60@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405113516.03653c60@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74261 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I believe it would take more like 10,000 acres ... Farmland in Illinois costs between $3,000 and $5,000... so this would be a $40 million investment for the land alone, processing equipment would bring the cost up to $140 to $200 million. That is probably fairly accurate in sum, maybe even on the low side for the equipment but high side for the needed amount of land... but it still makes for an enticing proposition, especially in the larger geopolitical picture. Even if the whole deal were a 'wash' i.e. a break-even proposition at current fuel prices, it does several very important things -- more so in the context of there being a thousand Peoria's ... It puts a cap on continuing price gouging by OPEC and Exxon etc, but mostly... It keeps that money out of the hands of our Arab and OPEC enemies, who are known to support Al Quaeda and other terrorists. And it is more carbon neutral. All-in-all, for everyone except big-oil and the War-mongers, it is win-win.... > This is an interesting idea, but it does not help to oversell it. ...moi ? try to oversell it ? naaaah ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 12:01:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35J1a6M026511; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:01:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35J1ZPu026498; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:01:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:01:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405145222.0377e828@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 15:01:32 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405120852.0373e040@mindspring.com> References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405115355.037a9858@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405120852.0373e040@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74262 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Actually, with heat alone and no photosynthesis, you might pull this >off with less than 1000 acres. This is inaccurate, as Beene noted. It should say: With IR photosynthesis alone, and no sunlight photosynthesis, you might pull this off with less than 1000 acres. I wonder if it is possible to efficiently convert full sunlight into PAR, and feed only that light to plants? (PAR is 450 and 660 nm light -- see my book, p. 131.) Peter Hagelstein once told me that piece of colored glass placed over a white lightbulb & reflector -- such as an old fashioned traffic light -- does not absorb much energy. In other words, most of the photons eventually emerge as green light "after bouncing around in there for a while" as he put it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 12:52:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35JqanG028346; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:52:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35JqYsw028331; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:52:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:52:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DiNhjZTn9QUjS2UFdvvgYcqdYPaqhRAUTgIIByvgd4OT3bmyg1+8NA+PZgsPg/5odqUun3hmZQDQ2c4ILuYQ4L08tV7uVMzrADE+4XoEbNejMLKBVlrf0tywM5GQjhSmvGL8aBxpKaeZwoubhxc02XI8xErqFhe73gwOj/7kTb8= ; X-YMail-OSG: NtkFmDsVM1k4g95DdJ60Rr5FiZdlsts_wew9tPCb9l7q.rxKmxZC0rVYApsGVbX56Sp09wnLkA-- Message-ID: <4615537B.7070604@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 12:52:27 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405115355.037a9858@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405120852.0373e040@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405145222.0377e828@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405145222.0377e828@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74263 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > With IR photosynthesis alone, and no sunlight photosynthesis, you might > pull this off with less than 1000 acres. The conceptual problem that all of us have - when comparing single cell life with "agriculure" is that the two are radically different in a few vital categories, yet at the same time very similar is some respects. This can lead to false assumptions. We tend to think too much in terms of either/or. Either the organism uses photosynthesis or it uses chemistry - IOW derives energy by digesting chemicals which are not fully oxidized. When using chemical energy and no light - in order to reduce CO2, which is the common "raw material" in most life (that is to de-oxidize CO2 and reuse the carbon) there would need to be a "free" supply of partially reduced chemicals. These need not be carbohydrates - yet in order to derive what "seems like" it is more than 100% of the solar energy which is falling on the pond, the source is chemical. Coal ash is part of that source. NOx is another part of that source. Solar photons can be catalytic without being required to be a significant "energy source" in themselves. With Algae (broadened to include all single cell life) there are strains which can do many things well, some of then not requiring light - including producing enzymes which can derive energy from minerals in the exhaust stream from buring coal, including sulfur, iron, silicates, phosphates and calcites. These minerals have already been partially or fully reduced by the combustion itself, and they have plenty of "free" energy to be harnessed by algae which does not require sunlight. A ton of smokestack effluent might have 10% of more partially reduced minerals and soot, including significant amounts of NOx if hight temperature combustion is allowed. The nitrogen oxides, in particular, also have energy content to add into the mix, in addition to the nitrogen needed for proteins. Many of these could be transitory. All in all, it may be possible for a pond to produce what appears to be more net energy of biofuel - than if 100% of the solar energy falling on it were converted into that fuel. That is true - even if in fact only 5% of the solar photons were being actually converted. For this to happen the other 95+% which gives the appearance of "too much efficiency" must be coming from a combination of chemicals in the ash, NOx and waste heat energy. The solar would be catalytic - not primary energy. After all - only one kilowatt of solar per meter^2 on average may fall on the pond over daylight but 50 kilowatts of heat energy may be dissipated by the same area over the 24 hour day ... maybe not in the pond configuration but in the tube setup used by MIT. The beauty of all of this is that the very things which we do not want in the air we breath are what the algae "want" in order to double their mass every few hours. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 13:11:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35KBjgK004250; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:11:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35KBiGQ004217; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:11:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=m3BopP2Hvikv/Mj8VAfITJED8Rwn6Y6BxirGysafFQLBU9+R0HX5L5IFmDUMJmPKfizRVx+t3Ul7uHjmHIz4TbEPbOt3dA8wSzGWiNFUtFiNM1WmDYz1DvQaFXtE9LBju9HpqcOelEtsRqbH5V2nQjlh5xKEZoiz6N68Eqwitek= ; Message-ID: <461557F7.2090007@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:11:35 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405094117.03743c88@mindspring.com> <4615180E.2090402@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405115355.037a9858@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405120852.0373e040@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405145222.0377e828@mindspring.com> <4615537B.7070604@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4615537B.7070604@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74264 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A bit too hasty on this: > After all - only one kilowatt of solar per meter^2 on average may fall > on the pond over daylight but 50 kilowatts of heat energy may be > dissipated by the same area over the 24 hour day ... maybe not in the > pond configuration but in the tube setup used by MIT. 50 kilowatts per hour would be too much and 50 kWhr per day would be too little. Frankly, too little factual detail is known to even guess, and that was a poor guess at that ... .... but planners and alternative energy advocates must give the reports which have been published the benefit of the doubt. There is a likelihood, based on these reports, that what appears to be in excess of 100% of the solar energy falling on a pond area is being converted into biofuel, and that could be true even if only 5% of the photons were being utilized. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 13:44:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35KiHdY018605; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:44:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35KiFJ2018590; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:44:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:44:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:44:12 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <001001c77723$cf5ba940$c905a8c0@xptower> <2vq8131vm1ctslr39opn6iqk9j159i4kv7@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 5 Apr 2007 20:44:12 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <0ZXa-D.A.aiE.f-VFGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74265 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:10:16 -0400: Hi, [snip] >On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then,= and they >> will have closed down altogether. > >With which technology? The one I'm designing right now. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 14:05:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l35L53Za025207; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:05:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l35L50Ff025169; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:05:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:05:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:04:57 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2732745.1175733066627.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070405093825.03653c60@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070405093825.03653c60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:04:57 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74266 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:40:53 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>That makes sense for an electric power plant, where the cost of capital >>equipment is well known, but not much sense for e.g. CRUDE = OIL/GASOLINE, where >>the cost can the calculated any of a thousand different ways,=20 >>depending on what >>one decides to include or leave out. > >I am sure industry experts have a standard metric that covers most=20 >costs. It would be impossible to run an oil business if there were a=20 >thousand different ways to estimate costs. As shown in footnote 14,=20 >the $1000 rough estimate is based on a DOE "staff communication." I=20 >am sure it is not $100 and not $10,000. > >- Jed This is supposed to be a global measure of cost efficiency, however in = order to do that for the oil industry, one would have to know how much had been = invested in the oil industry - ever, and how much of the that sum actually went = into equipment, and how much of that equipment was still in use, and that on a= global scale. Good luck trying to get hold of those numbers. Then take into consideration that the rate of oil delivery is not only determined by = production capacity, but also by other factors, e.g. politics and weather. A cost / kWh is easy to calculate - just use the price of oil - but a = "power plant" cost is near impossible. One could look at it on a cost/oil rig basis, but these vary = considerably, depending on lots of factors. A.o. location, weather, operator, whether = or not oil is found soon or late while drilling, or at all, the size of the find= etc. etc. In short, I find the comparison given in the diagrams only of value in = that it provides comparative conversion efficiencies for various technologies. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 5 19:10:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l362A2CQ010986; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:10:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3622tiM005622; Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:02:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:02:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c777ef$b5d03a00$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <20070404161751.F353B3FA1DD@mail2.mx.core.com> <4613D2B5.1010401@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404135805.037c9d78@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070404175600.03750230@mindspring.com> <46142D84.9000006@pacbell.net> <001001c77723$cf5ba940$c905a8c0@xptower> <2vq8131vm1ctslr39opn6iqk9j159i4kv7@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 21:03:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74267 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote.. >> With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, >> and they >> will have closed down altogether. Terry asked... >With which technology? Robin replied.. The one I'm designing right now. :) Howdy Vorts.. Better ask Japan Inc. before you spend too much money making one Robin. Japan Inc. has a near lock on future Nuke plant equipment now adays. What kind of lock?.. Try getting any new electric generating plant plan approved for liscensing and construction regardless of the fuel source, coal, nuke or Robin's design. Ask TXU Dallas.. Somebody did a number on them until Goldman-Sachs was called in on "how to get things done in the real world". Lotsa plants in design, few in costruction.. won't be in time for the electric power crunch coming to USA. Keep a bicycle handy. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 04:17:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36BHAsY029656; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 04:17:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36BH8CG029631; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 04:17:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 04:17:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=hk3QbLeWY1k+IDxhWzcDz9NZFeV/XPDIlRbS73GGVs3MsHq/LbokyukjiZFas+ha6VkUGTx/FDB5mZXyUUyMFKjb0Xxc07psR26osWOwxWv394UkwsIwyefTS7WjjeXbXy4dQ1I+/rHcEPq9XV+T2g+o3Gduc9dW7xcoytutX2Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=ZHWVY1gFMn1NTsdfdX0UULH6vgyqIFShXBAmpSHUyp2G8JwtdEqy9vhUTLiN+WC8nkxv1oJf7rzSKo/tyqTa2uM8Ayf6jFeZabLN3gg7tXp0NzbP02tLxjqgJPUCWK5MssNHnd7X8pr2KmY22chMRA555zxqI2qsaLCYHhb7ly8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 07:17:07 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <4SvuZB.A.yOH.zwiFGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74268 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Power Paint Status: RO X-Status: No, I did not mean Power Point: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/4017784a11.html Solar power breakthrough at Massey By MERVYN DYKES - Manawatu Standard | Thursday, 5 April 2007 COLOUR THEIR FUTURE GREEN: Wayne Campbell, left, and Ashton Partridge with a tiny demonstration solar panel filled with synthetic dye. Not only is it environmentally friendly and capable of being made in New Zealand, but it costs a fraction of the price of silicon cells. This means teenagers could one day be wearing jackets that will recharge their equivalents of cellphones, iPods and other battery- driven devices. The breakthrough is a development of the university's Nanomaterials Research Centre and has attracted world-wide interest already - particularly from Australia and Japan. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 08:03:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36F3JUs001421; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:03:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36F3GTD001315; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:03:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:03:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Ar3/jwtBHR4z10DMVs/pafS1dTVIk9u53tKtC6vv8gDh6jTAbkujhT2XpjcC2uSI8W6mQpaiKyqc8PoVjBW35W84HIyM6vrs6L+Z4AI+qaLmQIVoYyb3ScGw3+qRys1O1PmgvK9Hw4/9Ptauzr8IXg2Jo3xs0q/b0L9ZKKiRdcI= ; X-YMail-OSG: sjGh7KAVM1lpf.i6Q9Dhs4uGMaw3Rmi0uHpW7pbvTjQ1VoQz1I2S7bia6.IYQCh1.Ovf2zWumBU9F76hDvmReeiYGDhVlrsOJRo3g6P1OXMIjBD4UcU- Message-ID: <4616612C.3080309@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:03:08 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74269 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push Status: O X-Status: For those who have not seen it, Xavier (Blaze Labs) posted a further strong detail towards a radical change in POV (point of view) towards our understanding of gravity. Mainstream science (Newton, Einstein, etc) is firmly on the opposite side of this issue, so to speak -- demonstrating once again, that YES, it is easily possible even in the enlightened year of 2007 for a large percentage - perhaps upwards to 95-99% of all physics PhDs to be totally in error on a basic premise underlying all of nature. Not that LENR advocates occasionally need that kind of reassurance ;-) New hard evidence in favor of electromagnetic radiation pressure theory of gravity has just been received from Glen F. Perry's data analysis of data logged from the Postdam super conducting gravimeter. Needless to say - this is also encouraging news for ZPE advocates and experimenters. Look at the data of the sun's gravitation pulse train as it gets sharply attenuated to zero at midnight by earth's core, when the sun is completed counter-aligned (opposite) with the earth's core. Of course neither Newton's nor Eintein's theory can explain this data, or at least if they can - such an explanation is not yet forthcoming. http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp11.asp Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 09:25:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36GP6vO018594; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:25:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36GP1AJ018556; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:25:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:25:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a03GjhJWknkMiO2zohqp7XnhyxyapQGyaXcKSghy6fGyDTmzil7rI5BUM3om2j0TaCcECWvpkbjQqJ5LsSHg48NZAVeb5Hf5wiAtLNC55EWrknFGBWa9faSR096MLr0We3dFcIWTxR9GiIF5DYYsITnfLVD7UFhTtvPQT/MK5lY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YEaJiYC2trlNX6wLo41scC6YBG1QcqV3tIDJIskFZQMJNn613PlQxMLK0zGtovmbt0hFk8PutKVURHpEnzSfBcdTI4eNleG2kpP/mtQqCKr/cujIeVcMADgpgu22Yq8hdUIEopRs64gmZGN5ok+LF+pqW7a+wEn5ZQBW4UZWp40= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:24:58 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push Cc: ibison@earthtech.org In-Reply-To: <4616612C.3080309@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4616612C.3080309@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <7PbYDC.A.4hE.cRnFGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74270 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is remarkable! This should be making headlines. Ibison just published on the subject: http://earthtech.org/publications/ibison_PLA_emergent_gravity.pdf Terry On 4/6/07, Jones Beene wrote: > For those who have not seen it, Xavier (Blaze Labs) posted a further > strong detail towards a radical change in POV (point of view) towards > our understanding of gravity. > > Mainstream science (Newton, Einstein, etc) is firmly on the opposite > side of this issue, so to speak -- demonstrating once again, that YES, > it is easily possible even in the enlightened year of 2007 for a large > percentage - perhaps upwards to 95-99% of all physics PhDs to be totally > in error on a basic premise underlying all of nature. > > Not that LENR advocates occasionally need that kind of reassurance ;-) > > New hard evidence in favor of electromagnetic radiation pressure theory > of gravity has just been received from Glen F. Perry's data analysis of > data logged from the Postdam super conducting gravimeter. > > Needless to say - this is also encouraging news for ZPE advocates and > experimenters. > > Look at the data of the sun's gravitation pulse train as it gets sharply > attenuated to zero at midnight by earth's core, when the sun is > completed counter-aligned (opposite) with the earth's core. > > Of course neither Newton's nor Eintein's theory can explain this data, > or at least if they can - such an explanation is not yet forthcoming. > > http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp11.asp > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 09:35:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36GYp1c001623; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:34:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36GYhDW001496; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:34:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:34:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:34:37 -0400 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <101f96ff926.ff926101f96@ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal iPlanet-SMTP-Warning: Lines longer than SMTP allows found and truncated. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74271 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status:

----- Original Message -----

From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>

Date: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:03 am

Subject: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push

> For those who have not seen it, Xavier (Blaze Labs) posted a
> further
> strong detail towards a radical change in POV (point of view)
> towards
> our understanding of gravity.
>
> Mainstream science (Newton, Einstein, etc) is firmly on the
> opposite
> side of this issue, so to speak -- demonstrating once again, that
> YES,
> it is easily possible even in the enlightened year of 2007 for a
> large
> percentage - perhaps upwards to 95-99% of all physics PhDs to be
> totally
> in error on a basic premise underlying all of nature.
>
> Not that LENR advocates occasionally need that kind of reassurance
> ;-)
>
> New hard evidence in favor of electromagnetic radiation pressure
> theory
> of gravity has just been received from Glen F. Perry's data
> analysis of
> data logged from the Postdam super conducting gravimeter.
Newton's and Einstein's theory may be wrong and the push theory of gravity

may be able to explain _this_ data, but the push theory has some serious theoretical

difficulties to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral into the sun

because whatever is doing the pushing would also have a drag effect on the planets.

 

Harry

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 09:50:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36Go1qd029183; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:50:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36GesSm025035; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:40:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:40:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:40:53 -0400 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <100b0cff0eb.ff0eb100b0c@ncf.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal iPlanet-SMTP-Warning: Lines longer than SMTP allows found and truncated. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74272 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: gravity anomaly measured Status: RO X-Status:

gravity anomaly measured

Harry

----- Original Message -----

From: Terry Blanton

Date: Friday, April 6, 2007 12:24 pm

Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push

> This is remarkable! This should be making headlines.
>
> Ibison just published on the subject:
>
> http://earthtech.org/publications/ibison_PLA_emergent_gravity.pdf
>
> Terry
>
>
> On 4/6/07, Jones Beene  wrote:
> > For those who have not seen it, Xavier (Blaze Labs) posted a further
> > strong detail towards a radical change in POV (point of view)
> towards> our understanding of gravity.
> >
> > Mainstream science (Newton, Einstein, etc) is firmly on the opposite
> > side of this issue, so to speak -- demonstrating once again,
> that YES,
> > it is easily possible even in the enlightened year of 2007 for a
> large> percentage - perhaps upwards to 95-99% of all physics PhDs
> to be totally
> > in error on a basic premise underlying all of nature.
> >
> > Not that LENR advocates occas From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 10:01:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36H19BK004254; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:01:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36H17tx004231; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:01:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:01:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OECAp9/052mCM7K4YDVozh9GjfCiIqUTcrUjjuzYPwNHBYU+PQgjVk/j14+r9TOHWA8PNjjz8CmVFu3HrN3sKT/fSwl1hyLYEL8zOBj25xA7RBHRqhXde7kAsnB5lAOb5xMwHuXQw26eMrbyXKKB2DXT80EPHaQ0k0KzmbZ7byk= ; X-YMail-OSG: xbpebPwVM1mSByHbrYgaKFHbuYnj5uXRJxw8py0Zt7UC6f6Qhrjs4aJ0IfSCheeVOj.0Vwe0Lw-- Message-ID: <46167CCB.9040608@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:00:59 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push References: <101f96ff926.ff926101f96@ncf.ca> In-Reply-To: <101f96ff926.ff926101f96@ncf.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74273 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also have a drag effect on the planets. I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste'=20 functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect = in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an = *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)! Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit? Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions, = and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative: "This document presents some results that provide support for the=20 existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal = positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to=20 common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively=20 retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time,=20 which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time =96 th= e=20 direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated, a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of=20 conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any=20 arrow of time =96 thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this=20 proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the=20 details" =2E..yet Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 10:44:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36HiX6C030821; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:44:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36HiUOc030787; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:44:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:44:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:44:28 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_3874f760ccf2d1dadc9634b8940d23b2" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070406174722.ECC4B3FA210@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: <5JetfD.A.7gH.-boFGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74274 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_3874f760ccf2d1dadc9634b8940d23b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting. According to this timely evidence would it be correct to postulate that the Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact same "force" as described in Ibson's work, but just on a much smaller scale? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > Harry Veeder wrote: > > > the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties > to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral > into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also > have a drag effect on the planets. > > > I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste' > functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect > in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an > *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)! > > Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit? > > Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions, > and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative: > > "This document presents some results that provide support for the > existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal > positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to > common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively > retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time, > which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time – the > direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated, > a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of > conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any > arrow of time – thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote > > WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this > proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the > details" > > ...yet > > Jones > > > > > --=_3874f760ccf2d1dadc9634b8940d23b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting.

According to this timely evidence would it be correct to postulate that the= Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact same "force= " as described in Ibson's work, but just on a much smaller scale?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

>
> Harry Veeder wrote:
>
> > the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties
> to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral
> into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also
> have a drag effect on the planets.
>
>
> I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste'
> functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect =
> in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an =
> *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)!
>
> Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit?
>
> Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions, =
> and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative: >
> "This document presents some results that provide support for the
> existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal =
> positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to
> common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively <= br /> > retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time,
> which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time =96 th= e
> direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated, > a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of <= br /> > conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any
> arrow of time =96 thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote<= br /> >
> WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this
> proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the > details"
>
> ...yet
>
> Jones
>
>
>
>
>
--=_3874f760ccf2d1dadc9634b8940d23b2-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 10:52:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36HqAE1002892; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:52:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36Hq8o1002850; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:52:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:52:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Pr2op/lrYji3EPluvD4lbD5/7/A1BLAqqZ0hjolVeU4XU0ZayglQV/wOhItbNBY+3bETqoXybmApn7j4AUg6k+f3IK0LZxHGOpOn1fClyVJt58ygC5fOVBqTLiQJJ1duP7i8k6MXEr0827EWN+daFiWayynwbb2/QrtsFF8Xy0A= ; X-YMail-OSG: YOx7dIoVM1lTv4zhVGlNeJH8brtva5BXbineEN1fryCobbbdvKdHaiduOA2nLgTetkVn670lJA-- Message-ID: <461688BF.9000707@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:51:59 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: svj@orionworks.com CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push References: <20070406174722.ECC4B3FA210@mail2.mx.core.com> In-Reply-To: <20070406174722.ECC4B3FA210@mail2.mx.core.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74275 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > Interesting. > > According to this timely evidence would it be correct to postulate that > the Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact same > "force" as described in Ibson's work, but just on a much smaller scale? If so - it presents the possible conundrum of a ZPE device which works on earth but would not work in space... (if the device 'requires' an 'arrow of time' for functionality - instead of nullifying same). Hope that outcome does not eliminate any chance of NASA funding From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 10:58:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36HvmkD005865; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:57:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36HvkrH005839; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:57:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 10:57:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=RyNQAwv8s4hyW23MVNxr1KPHxBVUeo5DkscWdRZtQ8arizZf39ur8YFAZaQfTDKdFHbRhZ22Fldk5oNARIWAtMk8VlYgZ+G+XNPjt6rWJYr7+ASK42TYIpnPYghwKUzb/lR31nN0dPI3+72vSubofjQCe3njBkbrRWYiDKjNBp8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=PUet204JXcfDUcbDuIrQ5HbU8Yot/F+VThmypcIHNEjXia/rXGMYCSsOBVhtzuQoHNXixGuBxFhe6JHsq2EMGYShp26QJB2N7XKf0e1MEA2zX4mprtqEL2aJG5AI170mxdAmvJrSsRYPjZmEv/OVH1kXBhnyh3JPTgGXVYV34v0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:57:44 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74276 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fwd: Gravity is a Push Status: O X-Status: Indeed the Earthtech site says "submitted". Terry ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: michael ibison Date: Apr 6, 2007 1:46 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push To: Terry Blanton Thank you for this Terry. But the article is not yet published & I am not confident it will be well-received by Peter Holland at Physics Letters A. Michael From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 12:30:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36JUF7r015310; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:30:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36JU9d8015272; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:30:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:30:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:30:07 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <-TJ_KD.A.fuD.B_pFGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74277 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: >From: Denis Rancourt >To: >Subject: Victory in Disciplined Minds case >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 23:54:54 -0400 > > >Dear fellow physicist, > >Your courage to take a public stand on a close-to-home issue has >won justice for a fired fellow physicist and has promoted free >expression within the physics community. > >Over five years ago we sent you an appeal beginning: "Physics >Today magazine recently gave a punishing review to a book written >by physicist Jeff Schmidt..."[1] For 19 years Jeff was a staff >editor at our professional journal, Physics Today -- until his >supervisors saw his book Disciplined Minds. Based upon examples >from physics graduate training and beyond, it provocatively >critiques workplace hierarchy in general and the politically >subordinate role of people hired to do creative work.[2] The >magazine's review: "...[they] fired him." > >The resulting appeal to physicists and others landed in fertile >soil and, through your efforts, justice has finally been done. >You will not read about it in Physics Today, and so we are >writing now to give you the story and to thank you for your >support. > >Your public response, from over 35 countries, was unprecedented. >More than 1000 scientists, activists, and others in many fields >-- including the largest number of physicists ever to speak out >on a freedom-of-expression issue in the United States -- sent the >American Institute of Physics (AIP), which publishes Physics >Today, strongly worded demands for justice, all now public.[3] A >human-rights committee of scientists affiliated with a unit of >the IEEE investigated and issued a public report[4] condemning >Jeff's dismissal. > >Bringing such public judgment on Jeff's firing was already a form >of justice because of the toll on AIP's image. Such punitive >justice is available to any wronged individual unafraid to go >public. Jeff deeply appreciates and thanks you for your >support.[2] You can contact him at jeffschmidt@alumni.uci.edu. > >*Compensatory justice* > >Encouraged by your passionately expressed view that our >institutions should uphold our community values, we continued the >campaign for free expression -- with the goal of compensatory >justice. > >We took your protests to the American Physical Society, which >plays a major role in governing AIP, and asked[5] the >organization to oppose Jeff's dismissal, as it does when >dissident physicists outside the United States are punished for >expressing their views. APS officials, in what amounts to tacit >approval of Jeff's firing, refused even to investigate the same >issue close to home. This prompted us to urge Jeff to take legal >action. > >Hence, Jeff approached the most prominent Washington, D.C., >civil-rights law organization, which, impressed by your protests, >took the case pro bono publico. ("That's Latin for 'free,'" says >Jeff.) The lawyers filed suit[6] and obtained internal AIP >documents. After AIP handed over the embarrassing and >incriminating documents -- which are now public[7] -- it >capitulated and signed a legally binding settlement agreement. >Some highlights: > >1. Payment. AIP paid Jeff what we estimate[8] to be at least >half a million dollars. > >2. Public settlement. AIP agreed to Jeff's demand that the >settlement agreement be a public document.[9] > >3. Symbolic reinstatement. AIP reinstated Jeff to his position >at Physics Today magazine.[10] A few hours later Jeff resigned. > >4. Public statement by AIP. The American Institute of Physics >publicly acknowledged that Jeff's supervisors and others praised >his work and that AIP fired him for his provocative >expression.[11] > >5. Employment reference. AIP has given Jeff a positive >reference letter.[12] > >6. Discrimination remediation. While employed at Physics Today, >Jeff led a contentious effort to force the magazine to change its >long-standing pattern of hiring and training only whites as >editors, and to live up to its claim of being an affirmative- >action employer. These actions were part of the expression for >which Jeff was fired.[6,13] Thus, to settle the case, AIP >agreed[14] to... > >..Support the National Society of Black Physicists (NSBP) and >the National Society of Hispanic Physicists (NSHP) in becoming a >member society of AIP and appointing a member of the AIP >governing board. > >..Encourage each of the ten AIP member societies to work with >the NSBP and NSHP diversity council. > >..Offer a science-writing course at an NSBP annual conference, >which will increase the pool of talented minority-group editors. > >..Maintain a program of mandatory diversity training for all AIP >employees. > >*Freedom of expression not embraced* > >Although AIP's repressive behavior backfired, the organization >has not welcomed free expression within the physics community. >To settle the case, AIP demanded various censorships, including >deleting text from critical articles published by the American >Physical Society and by the Canadian Undergraduate Physics >Journal.[15] AIP's behavior prompted the Canadian Undergraduate >Physics Journal to lodge a strong, public protest.[16] It is >posted at > > >After the settlement, the American Institute of Physics, >represented by the notorious union-busting law firm Jackson >Lewis, slapped Jeff with a half-million-dollar legal action[17] >to silence him and to prevent physicists from discussing the >settlement. AIP claimed that snippets of text posted at the >disciplinedminds.com website (such as the two words, "symbolic >reinstatement," and the five words, "Schmidt's concessions to >AIP's demands") each did $20,000 worth of damage to AIP, for a >total of half a million dollars. AIP told Jeff that it would >stop its legal action if he removes those phrases from the web >and refrains from "all commentary regarding the settlement." We >therefore regard AIP's legal filing as a SLAPP action (strategic >lawsuit against public participation), one whose primary purpose >is to stifle discussions of public interest. > >We found this repressive behavior unacceptable for an institution >of physics, which should show the public that physicists come to >the truth through free discussion, not through censorship and >intimidation. We wrote to AIP twice[18] demanding that it drop >its SLAPP action and reverse the censorship of articles published >by the American Physical Society and the Canadian Undergraduate >Physics Journal. > >AIP has not undone the censorship or compensated Jeff for the >legal costs of defending against its SLAPP action, but -- in >another victory for free expression -- AIP announced, in its >response to our letters, that it would stop pursuing the legal >action. > >*We would like to hear from you* > >Thank you for taking a public stand. > >We hope that you will share your thoughts with us. Please share >your thoughts with AIP too. (Send us a copy and, with your >permission, we'll post it on the web.) Do let us know if you >would like to know about further developments in this case or >about similar cases. You can reach us at DGRancourt@aol.com >(Denis Rancourt), and you can reach AIP at millie@mgm.mit.edu >(AIP governing board chair Mildred Dresselhaus). > >Sincerely, > >Denis Rancourt for > >Fay Dowker, Physics Department, Imperial College London, UK >Sanjoy Mahajan, Physics Department, University of Cambridge, UK >Talat Rahman, Physics Department, University of Central Florida >Denis Rancourt, Physics Department, University of Ottawa, Canada >George Reiter, Physics Department, University of Houston > >------------------------- > >References >(Copy addresses into browser) > >1. >2. >3. >4. >5. >6. >7. >8. >9. >10. >11. >12. >13. >14. >15. >16. >17. >18. >and ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ Research Engineer UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 beaty@chem.washington.edu Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 12:48:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36JmnQh029405; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:48:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36JmloV029390; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:48:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:48:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070406151424.0360a4d8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 15:48:46 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74278 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cruise ship sinks Status: RO X-Status: Yesterday in the Aegean Sea, the cruise ship Sea Diamond, with nearly 1,600 people aboard, rammed into a bed of rocks. It sank about a mile offshore 18 hours. Two people are unaccounted for and presumed drowned. With its usual attention to detail, the New York Times reported: "The Sea Diamond rammed an underwater bed of rocks in the island's lagoon, formed by a giant volcanic explosion about 3,500 years ago, as it was approaching the main island's harbor to dock." So those rocks have been there for a long time. Plus, people have been sailing ships for a long time. Compared to the land, the sea is inherently dangerous and unnatural for us. Many ships have sunk, so we have probably devoted as much effort to ensuring marine safety as any similar effort such as preventing fires, railroad accidents, or airplane crashes. We have watertight doors, GPS navigation and a host of other technologies to prevent this kind of thing . . . yet in broad daylight, in a harbor that has probably been in use for thousands of years, a ship moving at slow speed was sunk by a collision. What do we learn from this? 1. Most accidents of this nature are caused by human error. The cause has not been reported yet, but I expect that the captain or crew are at fault. Often the design of the machine plays a role, as it did in the Three Mile Island meltdown. 2. No technology is perfect, or perfectly safe. Anyone who thinks that fission reactors, jumbo jets and the like can be made 100% reliable does not understand machines, or people. Ships will sink and airplanes will crash. Perhaps in the distant future, hundreds or thousands of years from now, when these machines are operated by super-intelligent robots only, the chances of an accident will be so low we will go for centuries without a casualty. But as long as people operate machines, there will be drastic failures. Cold fusion was announced on March 23, 1989. The next day, March 24, the Exxon Valdez struck a reef in Alaska and caused the largest oil spill in history. One of the many potential benefits of cold fusion is that it works on a small scale, and small-scale technology does not usually cause large scale disasters. The damage caused by a failure is usually limited to one or two victims, rather than hundreds. Wind turbines sometimes burn or fall over, but such failures seldom endanger many people or cost a lot of money, whereas the accidents at coal, gas or nuclear power plants have been the most expensive in history. Some small-scale technology does sometimes cause widespread havoc. Automobile accidents kill far more people than large-scale train or aircraft accidents ever did. Pasteurization was developed in the 1860s, but milk in New York City was not pasteurized until 1917, and in the ensuing 50 years it probably killed tens of thousands of babies and small children, including one of my great-grandmother's babies. It is conceivable that cheap & easy-to-make cold fusion powered nuclear bombs will be developed, in which case cold fusion might cause more harm than all previous technology combined. I think that is unlikely, and I hope it does not happen. I think it is one of the risks we must take in order to survive and preserve the earth. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 13:10:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36K9vq8006963; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:09:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36K9tkW006914; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:09:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:09:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:09:16 -0500 Message-ID: <003e01c77887$7a6165f0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acd4aHZMcSbJXEyTQ3ef69gmv/kWjQAHUFyw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74279 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, > Ibison just published on the subject: > http://earthtech.org/publications/ibison_PLA_emergent_gravity.pdf Personally, I could never trust any paper written in units where c is arbitrarily taken to be 1. What's the problem with doing science with a proper set of units? Is that another way of saying the theory doesn't work with proper physics? But equation 4 catches my eye immediately, too. How can the square of the E field be added to the square of the B field when they have different dimensions, regardless of the system of units? There are far simpler ways to unify gravity and electromagnetism that uses proper units and plain Newtonian type algebraic equations. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 13:16:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l36KGEsa012932; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:16:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l36KGCOL012909; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:16:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:16:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:15:37 -0500 Message-ID: <004001c77888$5ce4eaa0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070406151424.0360a4d8@mindspring.com> Thread-Index: Acd4hOjL4Vyyut3NRqCdRu0bFMKV2QAA2J8Q Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74280 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: MagneGas at home Status: O X-Status: Has anybody here tried this experiment, yet? http://jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/html/aquagen.htm Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 20:00:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3730YBe031312; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:00:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3730WwH031297; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:00:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:00:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=IRsqTg6ZmqbyYxDbu6vwy4+3zp5Sa3IGwKdxGwIZuObqWp7jMyk4LdHFE/9v5jXp; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <28850029.1175914830814.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:00:30 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8890f0a54c5fb38566f66266259ab0d8d99f37241381ec17c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.35 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74281 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 6, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Apr 6, 2007 2:29 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 6, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 6 Apr 07 Washington, DC 1. LHC TEST: IT WASN'T THE "BIG BANG" THEY WERE LOOKING FOR. Intoxicated by the enthusiasm of its builders, WN predicted last week that protons would circulate in the Large Hadron Collider on schedule. Alas, a Fermilab-built quadrupole magnet failed a high- pressure test with a dramatic bang. That's what tests are for. To the chagrin of Fermilab, it was a simple design flaw. The magnet will have to be brought to the surface, but there is optimism that the 23 other magnets like it can be retrofitted in place. The LHC may be able to get back on schedule, but the traditional 3-month winter shutdown may have to be sacrificed. 2. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION: THE COURT SOARS INTO THE TMOSPHERE. Still one vote short of a rubber stamp, the Supreme Court on Monday rebuked the Bush Administration for refusing to regulate greenhouse gases. It ruled 5-4 that the EPA must either begin regulating CO2 as an atmospheric pollutant, or declare that CO2 does not threaten humans, which EPA's own scientists dispute. The ruling effectively forces EPA to begin regulating tailpipe emissions, whether it likes it or not. Over the years, federal courts have sided with the consensus view of science on issues ranging from perpetual motion to creationism and pseudoscience, but any more appointments by Bush could change that. 3. CLIMATE CHANGE: BLEAK IPCC REPORT RELEASED TODAY IN BRUSSELS. Two months ago, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change put the odds that global warming is anthropogenic as "90% certain" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN07/wn020207.html . The report released today is titled Impacts, Adaptation, and Vulnerability. Science Committee Chairman Bart Gordon (D-TN)says it provides us with "even higher confidence" of warming. However, Ralph Hall (R-TX), ranking Republican on the Committee, says the new report "illustrates more uncertainty in the scientific community." Hmmm. It was Ralph Hall, you may recall, who supported building the Space Station because he thought it would "find a cure for cancer" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN07/wn020207.html . 4. RUNNING IN PLACE: CAN AN ASTRONAUT FIND A CURE FOR NASA HYPE? Indian-American astronaut Sunita Williams plans to run the Boston Marathon on board the ISS. She's been training on the treadmill at least 4 times a week for months. Is that good? I don't know. It's not as if she has anything better to do on the ISS. 5. GOD AND SCIENCE: THE SEARCH FOR MEANING IN THE NATURAL WORLD. >We got some angry e-mail this week about the line "Better a God particle than a God." A gratuitous slap in the face of people of faith? Not meant to be, but all of science is built on territory >once occupied by gods. Is there some boundary at which science is supposed to stop? Keep the letters coming. We read them all, and answer as many as we can. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 20:29:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l373TbwU014147; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:29:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l373Tb36014131; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:29:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:29:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 19:29:35 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74282 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Status: O X-Status: GRAVITATIONAL PENUMBRAE APRIL 6, 2007 BACKGROUND An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism were discussed in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Gravimagnetism.pdf and: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/PlankG.pdf http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/EarthWobble.pdf An isomorphism between gravity and electromagnetism was developed. =20 In this theory of gravimagnetism the graviton is defined as the =20 analog of the virtual photon. The graviphoton is defined as the =20 analog of the photon. Gravitational charge, the analog of positive =20 and negative Coulombic charge, is defined as positive when it is a =20 positive imaginary quantity (contains +i), and negative when it is a =20 negative imaginary quantity (contains -i). Imaginary here means a =20 quantity containing the imaginary number i, the square root of minus =20 one. A gravitational field G or gravimagnetic field K are imaginary =20 analogs to the electromagnetic fields E and B. An electrostatic attraction occurs when a virtual photon is exchanged =20= between a positive and negative electrostatic charge. An =20 electrostatic repulsion occurs when a virtual photon is exchanged =20 between like electrostatic charges. Due to the effect of the i =20 coefficient in gravitational fields, a gravitational repulsion occurs =20= when a graviton is exchanged between a positive and negative =20 gravitational charge. A gravitational attraction occurs when a =20 graviton is exchanged between like gravitational charges. By the isomorphism, every conceivable electromagnetic quantity, =20 relationship, and law has a precisely defined gravimagnetic =20 equivalent. The theory of gravimagnetism leads to many fully =20 quantified and verifiable implications, some of which differ from =20 those of general relativity. For example: 1. Gravity diminishes with distance due to graviton red shift due =20 to increased relative and receding velocity with distance (analogous =20 to the regular Hubble shift.) This may in part account for dark energy. 2. Gravimagnetic fields can in part account for excess galactic =20 forces and precession of the equinox, and errors in estimation of =20 distant mass values. 3. Virtual photons carry no gravitational charge, thus black holes =20 can exhibit electromagnetic effects beyond the event horizon. 4. A black hole above a threshold mass can emit matter carrying =20 gravitational charge opposed to the charge of that black hole. The =20 effect of the black hole=92s gravimagnetic and electromagnetic fields =20= on such an emission would be to form it into polar jets. 5. Parts of space, especially near super massive black holes, may =20 be filled with mass containing negative gravitational charge. This =20 could account in part for dark energy and large apparent voids in space. 6. Newton=92s f=3Dma contains no imaginary portions, thus inertia is =20= primarily an electromagnetic effect. 7. The gravimagnetic analog to Plank=92s constant, h_g =3D -h, =20 unifies gravity and electromagnetism, and determines the momentum =20 carried by graviphotons, etc. However, gravimagnetic theory also =20 permanently dis-unifies gravity and electromagnetism in the sense =20 that the forces exist in differing dimensions and have differing =20 charges and charge carriers. 8. Real photons carry gravitational charge, otherwise black holes =20 could not exist. OBJECTIVE It is of interest here to discuss the implications of gravimagnetic =20 theory with regard to gravity shielding effects. GRAVIMAGNETIC SHIELDING When a graviton is exchanged between two like gravitational charges =20 an attraction occurs. This is somewhat counterintuitive in that =20 momentum is exchanged in a direction opposed to that expected based =20 on ordinary momentum. However, this is not at all unusual in the =20 world of physics, in that virtual photons exchanged between unlike =20 electrostatic charges act in an identical manner. What is of special interest here is that, to have any effect, the =20 graviton is absorbed. It doesn=92t continue forward on its way. This =20= leads to the necessity that masses have gravitational penumbrae. A =20= mass m2 between two other masses m1 and m3 must in part shield m1 and =20= m3 from each other. The magnitude of the graviton absorption from =20 mass m1 by mass m2 is proportional to the force exerted between mass =20 m1 and m2. GRAVITATIONAL PENUMBRAE AND DARK ENERGY Graviton absorption can occur by any particle carrying gravitation =20 charge, including photons. The greater the distance between two =20 bodies in space, the more matter that exists between them (assuming a =20= nonzero mass density in space), and the more photon flux that exists =20 between them. By implication then, the greater the distance between =20 two bodies in space, the less the gravitational force between them =20 as predicted by Newton. The reduction in force is proportional to =20 the mass charge density between the two bodies. This then also =20 accounts in part for dark energy, the apparent reduction of =20 gravitational force between bodies with increasing distance. POSSIBLE EVIDENCE Gravitational penumbrae may have been recently observed. See: http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp11.asp The observations provided there may provide some confirmation of =20 gravimagnetism, depending on interpretation and confirmation. Regards, Horace Heffner= From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 6 20:33:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l373X2MJ025608; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:33:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l373WsYF025538; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:32:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:32:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> References: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4FFECCE2-1A6E-46E7-AC98-5A27D9B5FC66@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 19:32:53 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74283 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My ISP web service is currently down. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 02:12:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l379Cog1024861; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 02:12:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l379CiEX024805; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 02:12:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 02:12:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 19:11:31 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:12:09 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74284 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Algae ponds Status: O X-Status: Hi, If the ponds are covered with transparent plastic, and inflated with a = slight overpressure, then fresh water can be collected as a byproduct. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 04:16:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l37BGIOJ024807; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 04:16:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l37BGGh9024787; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 04:16:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 04:16:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 06:15:45 -0500 Message-ID: <002301c77906$1b9f0700$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> Thread-Index: Acd4xU4/EuMHb/xsQMWEc10McIZVXQAPjPNA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74285 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, Would you consider gravitational charge to be the same thing as mass? If not, why not? How do you use the term "virtual" such that it applies to the real world? That is, how can an object exist without really existing? Super massive black holes are hypothesized to exist, but as of yet, there is no hard evidence that they do. How can your theory prove the existence of super massive black holes? Also, there is evidence to suggest that the length scales of astrophysics are wrong. If it turns out the perceived distances between galactic objects is wrong, and the Newton calculations for gravitational force are correct, would your theory still predict dark energy? I find several ideas in your theory to be heading in the right direction, such as the identification of "gravitational charge" as separate from electrostatic charge. However, it is unclear to me what dimensions gravitational charge has in your theory. It is also unclear what the force law is that mediates gravitational charge. For example, Coulomb's electrostatic force law and Newton's gravitational force law quantify the forces between electrostatic charge and mass, respectively. There are empirically derived constants that mediate the forces between the dimensions of charge and mass, respectively. In your theory, it is unclear whether gravitational charge is the same thing as mass, charge, or something completely different. I'll need to see your answers before taking this further. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 10:30 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae GRAVITATIONAL PENUMBRAE APRIL 6, 2007 BACKGROUND An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism were discussed in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Gravimagnetism.pdf and: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/PlankG.pdf http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/EarthWobble.pdf An isomorphism between gravity and electromagnetism was developed. In this theory of gravimagnetism the graviton is defined as the analog of the virtual photon. The graviphoton is defined as the analog of the photon. Gravitational charge, the analog of positive and negative Coulombic charge, is defined as positive when it is a positive imaginary quantity (contains +i), and negative when it is a negative imaginary quantity (contains -i). Imaginary here means a quantity containing the imaginary number i, the square root of minus one. A gravitational field G or gravimagnetic field K are imaginary analogs to the electromagnetic fields E and B. An electrostatic attraction occurs when a virtual photon is exchanged between a positive and negative electrostatic charge. An electrostatic repulsion occurs when a virtual photon is exchanged between like electrostatic charges. Due to the effect of the i coefficient in gravitational fields, a gravitational repulsion occurs when a graviton is exchanged between a positive and negative gravitational charge. A gravitational attraction occurs when a graviton is exchanged between like gravitational charges. By the isomorphism, every conceivable electromagnetic quantity, relationship, and law has a precisely defined gravimagnetic equivalent. The theory of gravimagnetism leads to many fully quantified and verifiable implications, some of which differ from those of general relativity. For example: 1. Gravity diminishes with distance due to graviton red shift due to increased relative and receding velocity with distance (analogous to the regular Hubble shift.) This may in part account for dark energy. 2. Gravimagnetic fields can in part account for excess galactic forces and precession of the equinox, and errors in estimation of distant mass values. 3. Virtual photons carry no gravitational charge, thus black holes can exhibit electromagnetic effects beyond the event horizon. 4. A black hole above a threshold mass can emit matter carrying gravitational charge opposed to the charge of that black hole. The effect of the black hole's gravimagnetic and electromagnetic fields on such an emission would be to form it into polar jets. 5. Parts of space, especially near super massive black holes, may be filled with mass containing negative gravitational charge. This could account in part for dark energy and large apparent voids in space. 6. Newton's f=ma contains no imaginary portions, thus inertia is primarily an electromagnetic effect. 7. The gravimagnetic analog to Plank's constant, h_g = -h, unifies gravity and electromagnetism, and determines the momentum carried by graviphotons, etc. However, gravimagnetic theory also permanently dis-unifies gravity and electromagnetism in the sense that the forces exist in differing dimensions and have differing charges and charge carriers. 8. Real photons carry gravitational charge, otherwise black holes could not exist. OBJECTIVE It is of interest here to discuss the implications of gravimagnetic theory with regard to gravity shielding effects. GRAVIMAGNETIC SHIELDING When a graviton is exchanged between two like gravitational charges an attraction occurs. This is somewhat counterintuitive in that momentum is exchanged in a direction opposed to that expected based on ordinary momentum. However, this is not at all unusual in the world of physics, in that virtual photons exchanged between unlike electrostatic charges act in an identical manner. What is of special interest here is that, to have any effect, the graviton is absorbed. It doesn't continue forward on its way. This leads to the necessity that masses have gravitational penumbrae. A mass m2 between two other masses m1 and m3 must in part shield m1 and m3 from each other. The magnitude of the graviton absorption from mass m1 by mass m2 is proportional to the force exerted between mass m1 and m2. GRAVITATIONAL PENUMBRAE AND DARK ENERGY Graviton absorption can occur by any particle carrying gravitation charge, including photons. The greater the distance between two bodies in space, the more matter that exists between them (assuming a nonzero mass density in space), and the more photon flux that exists between them. By implication then, the greater the distance between two bodies in space, the less the gravitational force between them as predicted by Newton. The reduction in force is proportional to the mass charge density between the two bodies. This then also accounts in part for dark energy, the apparent reduction of gravitational force between bodies with increasing distance. POSSIBLE EVIDENCE Gravitational penumbrae may have been recently observed. See: http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp11.asp The observations provided there may provide some confirmation of gravimagnetism, depending on interpretation and confirmation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 07:24:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l37EOLja006569; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 07:24:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l37EOHE4006531; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 07:24:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 07:24:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <4617A735.1FA1D337@centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:14:13 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: rhonna@adelphia.net, thomsmi4@aol.com, tom@frenchcreekmedical.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae References: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74286 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote (on 4-6-07): An isomorphism between gravity and electromagnetism was developed. In this theory of gravimagnetism the graviton is defined as the analog of the virtual photon. The graviphoton is defined as the analog of the photon ... Hi Horace, It's good to hear from you. I'd like to bring to everyone's attention a good general interest book on electromagnetism in cosmology: The Electric Sky by Don Scott -- is a 256 page book with 86 illustrations (62 color) based on the work of plasma cosmologists. "Say goodbye to dark matter, dark energy, and black holes that not only defy expectations, but sober- minded credibility." ``Price of the book is $25.00. S & H is $5 for domestic Media mail or $8 for Priority mail. Canada is $7 for Standard & $10 for Priority. Outside the U.S.-- $12 foreign Standard, or $15 Global Priority. Additional information on the book can be found, and orders placed at: http://www.mikamar.biz/book-info/tes-a.htm'' I'm including below an interesting discusion with you in June, 2003, just to bring everyone up to date. Jack Smith -------------- Horace wrote: Inirtia must in fact be an electromagnetc force. Jack Smith wrote: How does this relate to your statement that centrifugal force is the force of inertia? Horace wrote: There is a very strong relation. First, the subject theory provides an indication that the centrifugal force, i.e. inertia, is indeed a real force. Indulge me for a moment now while I take the risk of grinding an old ax, if way prematurely. Due to the possibility the force involves interaction with the rest of the universe, or at least the vacuum itself, the notion that all motion, including angular motion, is relative, is nonsense, as is the notion that a centrifugal force does not exist. Yes, it is true I think despite the fact that pundits from MIT and other prestigious places, who have written books on mechanics that are of highest intellectual quality and barely fathomable, think otherwise. As I have said here a number of times in the past, the proposition that rotation is merely relative I easily prove to myself as bunk by merely spinning around fast in my desk chair. I feel the outward force in my legs, when I rotate relative to the stars and do not when I don't. The notion may be true on a universal basis, but clearly is not on a local basis. There are a number of possible balancing centripital forces, which is the other ingredient required for circular motion and things like orbits. The obvious one is the electrostatic force (even in its masked co-form as magnetism). In this case the force is real because each of the components comprising the force, i.e. each variable multiplied to compute the force, is real. The force of gravity is real because two imaginary components, mass, are multiplied together in the force computation. The electrostatic forces in material bonds are similarly electromagnetic and thus real. For these reasons, we would expect the force of inertia, which balances these forces to also be real. For this reason, we would further expect the strong nuclear force, which counteracts the inertia of the partially charged quarks, to be real also. Another possible source for a centripetal force is mass ejection, i.e using inertia against inertia to create circular motion. A rocket that flies in circles is using this means. In this case we use inertia against inertia, so it is not possible to tell if it is imaginary or real. Now, here is what I think is by far the most intriguing fact. The force of inertia is far greater than any possible exchange of photon energy can provide. When we push on a shopping cart to accelerate it, we get a momentum exchange that would take thousands of watts worth of photons to achieve. When we push an a shopping cart, however, it radiates only in a barely detectable fashion, and little of that is related to its acceleration. So, it seems likely that there there IS a way to grab a foot-hold on the vacuum without radiating. What is the most exciting indication of the subject theory is that this foothold has nothing whatsoever to do with gravity. (At least nothing very obvious. We still have the unanswered questions of why inertial mass and gravity are so closely related and why fields have gravitational mass.) At any rate, the theory leads us in a very clear direction with respect to a space drive. That direction leads in the direction of grabbing a foothold on the vacuum electromagnetically, or possibly in the direction of inertial mass suppression via electromagnetic manipulation. An additional and totally weird possibility remains. That is the possibility of manufacturing mass with negative inertia, or at least matter which contains negative inertial components. This would be very strange matter indeed. The mass would react in an attractive way gravitationally speaking. It would weigh positively on a scale, but its buoyancy in water would indicate one mass and if it were placed on a scale the force experienced by the scale would be less than the mass indicated by the buoyancy. That is because when the scale "pushes" on the mass, its component of mass having negative inertia is caused to also push upward. Such a mass would act very strangely on the end of a pendulum. The pendulum would tend to automatically damp its swing at the ends, and accelerate more in the middle of its swing. Its inertia would not carry it as far forward, but the force or at least acceleration of the non-negative inertial component by gravity would be amplified when it pressed on the negative inertial mass. (I hope I got all that right! Maybe not about the scale part. I need to think that over some more!) Negative inertia mass is a really bizarre and unlikely possibility, but oddly one already considered in a very similar fashion by Paul Hill in *Unconventional Flying Objects*! In Hill's case he assumed though that such a mass might have a negative gravitational force as well. We would not have a clue from the subject theory though as to how to create such matter, as it would not involve electromagnetics. It would be a different kind of matter altogether, having a gravitational charge component of -i. However, a craft consisting of a significant amount of negative inertial mass would be almost equally as good out in space. The most interesting and practical experimental approach (indicated by the subject theory) I think must involve the oscillation or rotation of varying current circuits, especially circuits configured such that they do not radiate significantly. I do not believe significant mass changes are required, especially relativistic mass changes. Long term experimentation makes me predisposed to reject the vanilla ExB Poynting vector approach so often touted. The following I think must be a clue. This was discussed here on vortex at length some years ago. It is this thought experiment. Imagine a couple or three miles long straight and parallel wires carrying current around a loop. The wires go right and left in front of us. At both ends they are connected by a semicircular wire bend with a radius of a few inches. There is no longitudinal force on the long straight segments of wire predicted by EM theory, only a mutually outward force. The mutual force between the semicircular ends of the wire, being a force between two dipoles, and thus a 1/r^4 force, is minuscule. However, if we calculate the rightward force on the rightmost semicircle, we find that it is very large and to the right. It is similarly true that the leftmost semicircle exerts a very large force to the left. The two ends of the circuit, assuming a very large current, exert a very large tensile force on the wires. Let us call this force a self-force. There is no antecedent for this force. It violates Newton's law of equal action and reaction, unless each end of the wire pushes on space itself. Now, unfortunately for we inertial drive engineers, the forces around any circuit balance to zero ... at least for static circuits. However, this is not true necessarily for moving circuit elements. It is true perhaps in Jefimenko's theory, but, if I recall that is true only due to his judicious choice of gauge to make it so, and not an inherent requirement of the theory, or possibly of standard EM as well. One thing is for sure, there seems to be no *causal* explanation for the massive unbalanced forces at the ends of the wires. Using superconductors such forces can easily be made to range into the tons. Suppose instead of a wire we use a coax cable (there is still a massive current bend self-force at the ends). Suppose we could place a massive current pulse in such a wire (it would not have to be superconducting, merely very cold aluminum would do). When the current pulse gets to the right end it produces a very large pulse of momentum. Suppose that the coax is rotating horizontally such that when the pulse gets to the other end of the coax that end is located to the right also. We get another impulse to the right. The device is not radiating. Where does the net inertia come from? Perhaps it somehow comes in the form of potential drop at the current bend ... say, due to the Hall effect potential? I don't think so, in that a reverse potential occurs upon the current exiting the bend. Perhaps momentum is lost due to the fact the pulse flattens out with time and must be restored? One problem, the problem of the wire having to exceed the speed of light, might be taken care of by a pulse delay mechanism in the long straight segments. Such a mechanism might experience a negative momentum pulse (compared to the desired direction) when the current pulse arrives, and should have a counteracting momentum pulse when the current pulse departs. Unfortunately, the delay device would be facing in opposite directions during those two times. Provided this delay impulse is not due to conductor bends, but rather simply due to electron momentum, the slowing and accelerating momentum change forces should be minuscule compared to he self force at the ends, which are giant compared to the centrifugal force due to electron momentums or electron inertia. The problem to overcome in such a pulse delay device, or alternatively pulse generating and absorbing devices, which in tandem create a pulse delay, is to avoid magnetic self-forces which cancel those on the coax ends. I don't know the answer to all these questions, or what exactly is right, but I think there now is a very serious reason to take another look at these questions. I think maybe road signs are now in place, due to power of the field isomorphisms. All we have to do is walk down the road? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 07:56:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l37EuRpZ002898; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 07:56:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l37EuP4E002859; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 07:56:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 07:56:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SloCFce2HJWbzDCYDt948oZCZhzCzQkGO1mSfDs0cJs0XVMuUY2i8vXZUnnjIL/f0rh5pHtzNYA5z6IwZlGXvhforhVYamg2aCMnN2ePKJcMfFoALWYFYYmqPlSCUM0hBEIglx61eYejgY3TBp9Lbxobz9dJqlRBpZ4nZGkKSBI= ; X-YMail-OSG: f_weJBsVM1nxZtbFBu5958B6GSu5zZz4hPo9m77dpmPukaHmD0.PVkGRjhdPYHo3lVX314DfWDmti6fKtvy4Ztqx3jqKQqX9Lo3yCVfcpWncetm1IjejhQpCOv1KgQ-- Message-ID: <4617B10F.8070705@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 07:56:15 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae References: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74287 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, Most interesting and perceptive, as always. Looks like a 'spring thaw' has settled in over the far North, allowing you to metaphorically peek-out at the lower 48 once again One quick question, and I'm sure you will be getting plenty more, since you have been focusing on this general field for some time: Did you have a look at the Ibison paper, and do you have any comments on that? In your earlier paper, you cited Jefimenko's idea that the correspondence between gravity and the electromagnetic field is based on causality and the effects of retardation. Is that another way (and precedent) of saying the same thing ? Jones Wiki keeps adding gravity references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yilmaz_theory_of_gravitation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizable_vacuum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_electrodynamics_bibliography From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 08:37:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l37FbTA3031685; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 08:37:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l37FbQkx031662; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 08:37:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 08:37:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=6j4vlUuT7vTYPtung3Ikl82qqKGr619W2x7Vk0ROVfJ+AknzDQV2Ts37d8J9+xk/jq9XzH4y1+3dTwZX2SQukwH0i7t0NumXz80AEh6AELkdYdTdwYL0RPNksSFNp4Z1y9XIFPpgw/VmRa7bZ11OBs1BNmeARiVaZjQ8alXtmdU= ; X-YMail-OSG: QQ3E91QVM1kkBjZ3iwNWvrYTzF_0Md8fXfvnIUsixGwBEUeE9b5JjXYACSVRJ8SJjgcXNJqin6iHqspCua7pf2.Z.s3pUZp7aH2HTRvt9MIE61B39YA- Message-ID: <4617BAAE.9000809@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:37:18 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74288 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: H2 on demand Status: O X-Status: We have mentioned AirGen before. http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=11039 They have developed kind of a Grove Cell - a cross between a battery and a H2 generator (electrolysis cell) which uses an active nano-colloid, in addition to shorted electrodes. The idea is that you pair it with a fuel cell and get a lot more power per weight or volume than an advanced battery. The colloid is 'sacrifical' (i.e appropriate for comment on Easter ;-) but they have never said how much the cost is - to replenish it... which is probably the fly in the ointment as we all know that nano-anything = tres cher. But they have hinted that the colloid can be reactivated, at least partially, in situ. Apparently they had a demo two weeks ago in San Antonio - http://www.h2daily.com/news/hydrogen-generation-technology-to-be-demonstrated-at-nha-exposition-by-airgen-20070312-34-50.html http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7024.html Funny that they did not get any press coverage on that demo, at least which I can find... maybe Richard has seen it? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 10:32:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l37HWFCW014992; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:32:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l37HWD9N014970; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:32:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:32:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <4617B10F.8070705@pacbell.net> References: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> <4617B10F.8070705@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:30:19 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74289 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 7, 2007, at 6:56 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > Horace, > > Most interesting and perceptive, as always. > > Looks like a 'spring thaw' has settled in over the far North, > allowing you to metaphorically peek-out at the lower 48 once again > > One quick question, and I'm sure you will be getting plenty more, > since you have been focusing on this general field for some time: > Did you have a look at the Ibison paper, and do you have any > comments on that? I haven't seen any recent papers by Ibbotson. I've been away from amateur physics for some time now. It's all just so tedious for me these days, and I have other demands on my time. > In your earlier paper, you cited Jefimenko's idea that the > correspondence between gravity and the electromagnetic field is > based on causality and the effects of retardation. Is that another > way (and precedent) of saying the same thing ? No, I think it is saying *exactly* the same thing - with only the slight modification of the use of the imaginary number i to fix some of Jefimenko's computational problems. My little theory is based 100% on Jefimenko's theory of retardation and casuality, as was noted in the defining articles. The implications of this little addition of +-i, however, were astounding to me, and led immediately to numerous conclusions and speculations that could not be drawn from Jefimenko's work. It will be most interesting to see the results from the Gravity Probe B studies. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 10:48:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l37HmiAS003157; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:48:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l37HmgJq003141; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:48:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:48:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <4617A735.1FA1D337@centurytel.net> References: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> <4617A735.1FA1D337@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <697F5467-5C5B-4563-9F41-A157C94F6CF7@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:47:51 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74290 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 7, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > Hi Horace, Hello Jack, The old posting you provided looks like it might pre-date my solidification of the gravimagnetic isomorphism concepts, though it certainly contains some of the thinking. In any case, though I expect it won't actually work (based on the NASA Advanced Propulsion Program results for similar things), I did work up some numbers on a possible experimental coaxial thruster along those lines: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/CoaxDrive.pdf I liked the pure ZPE based approach a lot more: http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ZPE-CasimirThrust.pdf but it was way beyond my means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 10:58:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l37HvuPt022032; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:57:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l37Hvp45021984; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:57:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:57:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <002301c77906$1b9f0700$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> References: <002301c77906$1b9f0700$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:57:49 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74291 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If I've already sent this please forgive my senility. 8^) I don't have the time for an extended discussion. However, I will try to answer your questions of the moment. On Apr 7, 2007, at 3:15 AM, David Thomson wrote: > Hi Horace, > > Would you consider gravitational charge to be the same thing as > mass? If > not, why not? Coulombic charge is the emitter/receiver of the messenger particle of the electromagnetic (EM) field. Gravitational charge is the emitter/ receiver of the messenger particle of the gravimagnetic (GK) field. Coulombic and gravitational charge can be bound into, be contained in, the same particle. Gravitational charge defines gravitational mass, but not inertial mass. Inertial and gravitational mass are maintained in proportion only because in typical matter the two charge carriers are maintained in proportion. Neutrons carry EM charge, but the charges are balanced. Photons, on the other hand, carry no EM charge, but do carry GK charge. > > How do you use the term "virtual" such that it applies to the real > world? > That is, how can an object exist without really existing? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle Messenger particles carry (are) the force of a force field. They travel at finite speed, thus, as Jefimenko Showed, their effects in dynamic systems are delayed, i.e. "retarded". This retardation accounts precisely for the magnetic component of both the EM and GK fields, thus there is no need for a magnetic field messenger particle of either the EM or GK variety. This accounts for why the electric and magnetic components of a field depend on the observer's relative motion. Jefimenko has further showed that retardation accounts fully for many relativistic effects. > > Super massive black holes are hypothesized to exist, but as of yet, > there is > no hard evidence that they do. A search of the literature will show the above to be highly debatable. It is not a debate in which I have sufficient interest to spend time. > How can your theory prove the existence of > super massive black holes? It can not. Proof of black holes only comes from observation. The gravimagnetic theory logically necessitates black holes, and further black holes with specific characteristics. The gravimagnetic theory was in fact derived to be consistent with a number of types of assumed observations. I think one of the indications of the power of the theory is the clarity of its explanation of polar jets emitted from black holes. Another is its wide range of quantified predictive abilities. > > Also, there is evidence to suggest that the length scales of > astrophysics > are wrong. If it turns out the perceived distances between > galactic objects > is wrong, and the Newton calculations for gravitational force are > correct, > would your theory still predict dark energy? Yes, of course. Gravity must necessarily be reduced by the noted effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and graviton absorption. Further, the predicted existence (by symmetry, as well as polar jets) of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational matter. The existence of such matter has profound cosmological consequences. Overall, the universe must expand indefinitely, but in localized zones consisting primarily of one charge type or another, a phoenix effect takes place through generations of alternating black hole types. It is possible that negative gravitational mass matter arrives here on earth continuously in the form of cosmic rays, and that it thus occupies the volume of local space in surprisingly high amounts. The energy of cosmic rays greatly exceeds that necessary to overcome the earth or solar system's escape velocity. To my knowledge no determination of length scales has even considered all these things. > > I find several ideas in your theory to be heading in the right > direction, > such as the identification of "gravitational charge" as separate from > electrostatic charge. However, it is unclear to me what dimensions > gravitational charge has in your theory. Gravitational charge has the dimension of gravitational mass, e.g. kg_g. When it is clear you are talking about gravitational mass and not inertial mass you can simply dispense with the "sub g". The more interesting and nebulous thing, and even not explored thing, is the space in which the graviton exists, which includes imaginary dimensions. The travel time between two particles for gravitons and virtual photons need not be the same at all times. If a space warping model is of use, the two subspaces might warp independently. The ratio of charge, or inertial mass, to gravitational mass is not necessarily constant. The change in proportions affects clocks, so manifests as time warp. > It is also unclear what the force > law is that mediates gravitational charge. For example, Coulomb's > electrostatic force law and Newton's gravitational force law > quantify the > forces between electrostatic charge and mass, respectively. I think you just answered your own question. These two laws are analogs under the defined isomorphism. Optionally, you can can subscript everything in Coulomb's law with a "g" to obtain Newton's gravitational force law as defined by the nomenclature in: http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Gravimagnetism.pdf > There are > empirically derived constants that mediate the forces between the > dimensions > of charge and mass, respectively. The force law "constants" depend on the ratio of GK charge to EM charge in ordinary matter particles, and, depending on other assumptions, the conditions of observation. However, the distinction between inertial mass and gravitational mass was not drawn when the force law constants were initially defined in prior centuries. > In your theory, it is unclear whether gravitational charge is the > same thing > as mass, charge, or something completely different. A fundamental premise of the theory is that gravitational mass and inertial mass are completely distinct. Forces from gravitational charge interactions are distinct from inertial f=ma forces, which can be shown to be due to EM forces resulting from the fact charged particles have finite dimensions. I think Puthoff (a former member of this list) and Ibbitson have written a number of articles about the EM source of inertia. Coulomb charge and mass charge are utterly distinct under the gravimagnetic theory, though they are commonly bound together in ordinary matter. > I'll need to see your > answers before taking this further. Perhaps you could take it in a basket for a picnic. mmmmm.... picnic... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 13:18:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l37KIOAM027285; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:18:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l37KIL1Q027256; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:18:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:18:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <4617B10F.8070705@pacbell.net> References: <45868E01-8859-4BC1-8FFE-3737AB12C7BF@mtaonline.net> <4617B10F.8070705@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:16:59 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74292 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 7, 2007, at 6:56 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > In your earlier paper, you cited Jefimenko's idea that the > correspondence between gravity and the electromagnetic field is > based on causality and the effects of retardation. Is that another > way (and precedent) of saying the same thing ? I wrote: "No, I think it is saying *exactly* the same thing - with only the slight modification of the use of the imaginary number i to fix some of Jefimenko's computational problems. My little theory is based 100% on Jefimenko's theory of retardation and casuality, as was noted in the defining articles. The implications of this little addition of +-i, however, were astounding to me, and led immediately to numerous conclusions and speculations that could not be drawn from Jefimenko's work." Oooooops! I misread the question! I read the above as "... correspondence between gravity and the *gravimagnetic* field is based on causality and the effects of retardation." Sorry! I don't think Jefimenko meant that the correspondence between gravity and the electromagnetic field is based on causality and the effects of retardation. I don't either. The importance of causality and retardation is that these considerations demonstrate the necessity of and fully account for the magnetic fields B and K given the existence of fields E and g provided they carried by finite speed messenger particles, and are thus "causal". The similarity of laws and constants, at least in part, between gravity and electrostatic fields has long been noted. Jefimenko showed that E implies the existence B, and thus, similarly, g implies K. However, he did not establish a full isomorphism, and had to tweek individual laws as he examined them in order to make some kind of correspondence. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 7 17:47:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l380l1Lf012514; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 17:47:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l380kwe2012483; Sat, 7 Apr 2007 17:46:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 17:46:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=EeTuRmc3Jvvvjg7h+uaRpCvzVIF4h6y0wa8EwGNcZzqUxmE2bxLOywXLIzpbSeHhqmoGInPBYCUH1ibUUfUx8bt8YO/fHcxL7fqvMdJqyVw6n2udtTdv2dd6z/wUFhQqh+zuS+fJA0iFSTC8O/ulCRW/S0cxZT7GHpDwwI3uvOc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=gv+QGIusifs9Ssp4kAjT/Ed+Ox4zTGtxENTGpKeBeh7XoqaV/RPwdO47uJqrU8r8Hrx46ioEFyJPOuD2rsYpV1zNIpDYTfVJRgwieljN9Ukw81PvDJpqfRihpBtIvwdwrzfjWhiXhr0UW5kJXEG+r23R/iXEvJP4Tj5L3zbESxA= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 20:36:58 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_23359_32395848.1175992618349" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74293 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_23359_32395848.1175992618349 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo, Following is-are some general comment. The contributor will delete text that is not germane ,per se.... Should the reader[s] wish to commnet or contribute: (A) Please use clear text.... OK to refer to known text, contribution (B) Prefer BBGB and ...or.....HB NB BS Engineering. (C) If the response is a ""guess" or a "theory"" please identify it as such (D) Most desired will be real known work... performed by the contributor. On 4/6/07, vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com < vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com> wrote: > vortex-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 205 > > Today's Topics: > [Vo]: Approaches for biological and [ Jed Rothwell < > JedRothwell@mindsprin ] > Re: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria? [ Jones Beene > ] > Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality [ Jed Rothwell < > JedRothwell@mindsprin ] > Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality [ Jones Beene > ] > Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality [ Jones Beene > ] > Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza [ Robin van Spaandonk < > rvanspaa@bigpo ] > Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza [ Robin van Spaandonk < > rvanspaa@bigpo ] > Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza [ "R.C.Macaulay" > ] > [Vo]: Power Paint [ "Terry Blanton" < > hohlraum@gmail.com ] > [Vo]: Gravity is a Push [ Jones Beene > ] > Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push [ "Terry Blanton" < > hohlraum@gmail.com ] > Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push [ Harry Veeder < > eo200@freenet.carleto ] > [Vo]: gravity anomaly measured [ Harry Veeder < > eo200@freenet.carleto ] > Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push [ Jones Beene > ] > Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push [ "Steven Vincent Johnson" < > ow01@voya ] > Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push [ Jones Beene > ] > [Vo]: Fwd: Gravity is a Push [ "Terry Blanton" < > hohlraum@gmail.com ] > [1] A semi parabolic reflector, such as the dishes used for TV in the 1970 to 1995 era... 11 feet in diameter yield from 8 to 15 KW Thermal THIS IS reality ..... The paper below is NOT a good description of any method to use general sunlight..... check it out... PLEASE > Now, here is a good paper -- which I hope is > technically accurate -- that explains a lot about > photosynthesis and plant efficiency: > > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/14/5251 QUOTES: > > "The average solar radiation available for a > flat-plate collector in the U.S. is 5 kW=B7h/m^2 > per day (1 kW=B7h =3D 3.6 x 10^6 J). Conservatively, > 100 million residences, each with an available > roof area of 90 m^2, receive 5 x 10^19 J of solar > energy, which is equal to half of the annual > energy consumption in the U.S. Typical > commercially available PV cells offer nominal > efficiencies of 15%, with higher levels > attainable up to a theoretical efficiency for > silicon PV cells of 32%; however, a significant > fraction of the installation costs are related to > infrastructure, such as supporting framework, > wiring, power inverters, and grid connections. > For example, in a study published in 2003 of a > 35-kW PV array (2), the total reported cost was > $239,945 ($6.86/W), with infrastructure > comprising 35=9640% of the total amount. This > system saved $2,678 per year in energy costs > compared with the preinstallation expenditures. > If, hypothetically, the same installation could > be made with cells at 1/10 the current price and > 32% efficiency but the same infrastructure costs, > the system would cost $100,000 and save $8,000 > per year. Based on these values, it is apparent > that improving efficiency and reducing device > costs is vital to using PV technologies but that > addressing infrastructure costs will also be necessary. . . ." SO...... 100,000 for an old time 11 foot diameter dish???? NO...... > This paper does not mention green sulfur bacteria. > > - Jed JED.... et al ... do your own math..... Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > I believe it would take more like 10,000 acres ... Farmland > in Illinois costs between $3,000 and $5,000... so this would > be a $40 million investment for the land alone, processing > equipment would bring the cost up to $140 to $200 million. > > > 50 kilowatts per hour would be too much and 50 kWhr per day would be too > little. Frankly, too little factual detail is known to even guess, and > that was a poor guess at that ... > > .... but planners and alternative energy advocates must give the reports > which have been published the benefit of the doubt. > > There is a likelihood, based on these reports, that what appears to be > in excess of 100% of the solar energy falling on a pond area is being > converted into biofuel, and that could be true even if only 5% of the > photons were being utilized. NB: 11 feet in diameter .......... 5 to 12 KW Thermal ..... Cost??? Maybe 30 to 50 USD..... _________________________________________ > Jones > > In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:10:16 -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > >On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > The one I'm designing right now. :) > > Regards, > > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/4017784a11.html > > Solar power breakthrough at Massey > > By MERVYN DYKES - Manawatu Standard | Thursday, 5 April 2007 > > COLOUR THEIR FUTURE GREEN: Wayne Campbell, left, and Ashton Partridge > with a tiny demonstration solar panel filled with synthetic dye. Not > only is it environmentally friendly and capable of being made in New > Zealand, but it costs a fraction of the price of silicon cells. ______________________________________________________ NB: The Casimir :force: is similar to Van der Waals .... OR: 12 inch by 12 inch conductive plates one nano meter apart will experience and attractive force of about 14.7 pounds/in/sq.... or the same as STP. air pressure. The plates will then touch one another..... THEN .... to separate the plates the entire assembly must be placed in a fully shielded electromagnetic barrier or Faraday cage that will block or prevent ALL of the wavelengths that caused the plates to be pushed toward one another ..... then you may separate the two 12 inch by 12 inch plates.... Then you may remove the two plates from the shielding cage.... and.... again they will be pushed toward one another [ one nano meter] at the pressure equal to air pressure. HMMMMM Really good..... big stuff... > Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > Interesting. > > > > According to this timely evidence would it be correct to postulate that > > the Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact same > > "force" as described in Ibson's work, but just on a much smaller scale? > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D If so - it presents the possible conundrum of a ZPE device which works > on earth but would not work in space... (if the device 'requires' an > 'arrow of time' for functionality - instead of nullifying same). > > Hope that outcome does not eliminate any chance of NASA funding > > Indeed the Earthtech site says "submitted". > > Terry \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\= \\\\\\\\\\ Anyone wish to contribute NON THEORY??? HJ ------=_Part_23359_32395848.1175992618349 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Vo,
 
   Following is-are some general comment.  The contribu= tor will delete text that is not
germane ,per se....
 
       Should the reader[s] wish to comm= net or contribute:
 
(A)  Please use clear text.... OK to refer to known text, contrib= ution
(B)  Prefer BBGB   and ...or.....HB NB BS Engineering.<= /div>
(C)  If the response is a ""guess"  or a = ;  "theory""  please identify it as such
(D)  Most desired will be real known work... performed by the con= tributor.
 
   

 
On 4/6/07, <= a href=3D"mailto:vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com">vortex-digest-request@es= kimo.com <vo= rtex-digest-request@eskimo.com > wrote:
vortex-digest Digest       &nb= sp;                    Vo= lume 2007 : Issue 205

Today's Topics:
 [Vo]: Approaches = for biological and   [ Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindsprin ]
&nb= sp;Re: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria?     [ Jones Beene < jonesb9@pacbell.net> ]
 Re: [Vo]: Biofu= el Bonanza - reality   [ Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindsprin ]
&= nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality   [ Jones Beene < jonesb9@pacbell.net> ]
 Re: [Vo]: Biofu= el Bonanza - reality   [ Jones Beene < jonesb9@pacbell.net> ]
 Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza   &nb= sp;         [ Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpo ]<= br> Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza            = ; [ Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpo ]
 Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bon= anza             [ " R.C.Macaulay" <walhalla@cvtv.net> ]
&n= bsp;[Vo]: Power Paint               &nbs= p;     [ "Terry Blanton" < hohlraum@gmail.com ]
 [Vo]: Gravity is a Push     &nb= sp;         [ Jones Beene <jone= sb9@pacbell.net> ]
 Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push    = ;       [ "Terry Blanton" < hohlraum@gmail.com ]
 Re: [Vo]: Gravity is = a Push           [ Harry Veeder < eo200@freenet.carleto ]
 [Vo]: gravity anomaly measured   =      [ Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet= .carleto ]
 Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push       &n= bsp;   [ Jones Beene < jonesb9@pacbell.net> ]
 Re: [Vo]: Gravi= ty is a Push           [ "Steven Vincent John= son" <ow01@voya ]
 Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push    = ;       [ Jones Beene < jonesb9@pacbell.net> ]
 [Vo]: Fwd: Grav= ity is a Push          [ "Terry Blanton"= < hohlraum@gmail.com ]
 
         [1]   = A semi parabolic reflector, such as the dishes used for TV in the 1970 to = 1995 era... 
           &nbs= p;     11 feet in diameter yield from 8 to 15 KW Therma= l
 
       THIS IS reality .....
 
          The paper below= is NOT a good description of any method to use general sunlight.....
           &nbs= p;   check it out... PLEASE

 
Now, here is a good paper -- whi= ch I hope is
technically accurate -- that explains a lot about
photos= ynthesis and plant efficiency:

http:= //www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/14/5251
 
 

QUOTES:

"The average= solar radiation available for a
flat-plate collector in the U.S. is 5 k= W=B7h/m^2
per day (1 kW=B7h =3D 3.6 x 10^6 J). Conservatively,
100 million res= idences, each with an available
roof area of 90 m^2, receive 5 x 10^19 J= of solar
energy, which is equal to half of the annual
energy consump= tion in the=20 U.S. Typical
commercially available PV cells offer nominal
efficienci= es of 15%, with higher levels
attainable up to a theoretical efficiency = for
silicon PV cells of 32%; however, a significant
fraction of the i= nstallation costs are related to
infrastructure, such as supporting framework,
wiring, power inverter= s, and grid connections.
For example, in a study published in 2003 of a<= br>35-kW PV array (2), the total reported cost was
$239,945 ($6.86/W), w= ith infrastructure
comprising 35=9640% of the total amount. This
system saved $2,678 pe= r year in energy costs
compared with the preinstallation expenditures.If, hypothetically, the same installation could
be made with cells at = 1/10 the current price and
32% efficiency but the same infrastructure costs,
the system would c= ost $100,000 and save $8,000
per year. Based on these values, it is appa= rent
that improving efficiency and reducing device
costs is vital to = using PV technologies but that
addressing infrastructure costs will also be necessary. . . ."
 
 
   SO......   100,000 for an old time 11 foot diam= eter dish????
          NO......
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This paper does not mention gree= n sulfur bacteria.

- Jed
 
 
       JED.... et al ... do your own mat= h.....
 
 

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> = I believe it would take more like 10,000 acres ... Farmland
in Illinois = costs between $3,000 and $5,000... so this would
be a $40 million investment for the land alone, processing
equipment= would bring the cost up to $140 to $200 million.


50 kilowatts p= er hour would be too much and 50 kWhr per day would be too
little. Frank= ly, too little factual detail is known to even guess, and
that was a poor guess at that ...

.... but planners and alternat= ive energy advocates must give the reports
which have been published the= benefit of the doubt.

There is a likelihood, based on these reports= , that what appears to be
in excess of 100% of the solar energy falling on a pond area is beingconverted into biofuel, and that could be true even if only 5% of the
= photons were being utilized.
 
 
 
        NB:   11 feet in = diameter  .......... 5 to 12  KW Thermal .....
 
        Cost???   Maybe 3= 0 to 50 USD.....
 
 
_________________________________________
 
Jones

In reply to  T= erry Blanton's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:10:16 -0400:
Hi,
[sn= ip]
>On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bi= gpond.net.au> wrote:
>
The one I'm designing right now.= :)

Regards,

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/4017784a11.html
Solar power breakthrough at Massey

By MERVYN DYKES - Manawatu Standa= rd | Thursday, 5 April 2007

COLOUR THEIR FUTURE GREEN: Wayne Campbel= l, left, and Ashton Partridge
with a tiny demonstration solar panel fill= ed with synthetic dye. Not
only is it environmentally friendly and capable of being made in NewZealand, but it costs a fraction of the price of silicon cells.
 
 
______________________________________________________
 
       NB:
 
 The Casimir  :force: is similar to Van der Waals ....
OR:  12 inch by 12 inch  conductive plates one nano meter ap= art will experience
and attractive force of about 14.7 pounds/in/sq.... or the same as STP= . air pressure.
 
     The plates will then touch one another..... T= HEN .... to separate the plates
the entire assembly must be  placed in a fully shielded electroma= gnetic barrier or Faraday cage that will block or prevent ALL of the wavele= ngths that caused the plates to be pushed toward  one another ..... th= en you may separate the two 12 inch by 12
inch plates.... Then you may remove the two plates  from the shie= lding cage....
and.... again they will be pushed toward one another [ one nano meter]= at the
pressure equal to air pressure.
 
        HMMMMM
 
      Really good..... big stuff...
 

 
Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:> Interesting.
>
> According to this timely evidence would = it be correct to postulate that
> the Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact= same
> "force" as described in Ibson's work, but just = on a much smaller scale?

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

If so - it presents the possible= conundrum of a ZPE device which works
on earth but would not work in sp= ace... (if the device 'requires' an
'arrow of time' for functionality - instead of nullifying same)= .

Hope that outcome does not eliminate any chance of NASA funding &l= t;g>

Indeed the Earthtech site says "submitted".

Terry
 
 
  Anyone wish to contribute NON THEORY???
 
           &nbs= p;     HJ

------=_Part_23359_32395848.1175992618349-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 8 06:29:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l38DTRWX010616; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 06:29:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l38DTOVi010592; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 06:29:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 06:29:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: <002301c77906$1b9f0700$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> References: <002301c77906$1b9f0700$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <208249D4-96EF-4ADB-B019-0CF60C5CB77A@mtaonline.net> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 05:29:20 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: <0UK31.A.YlC.04OGGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74294 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "Gravitational charge has the dimension of gravitational mass, e.g. kg_g. When it is clear you are talking about gravitational mass and not inertial mass you can simply dispense with the "sub g"." I should have noted here that kg_g = i kg. In other words, gravitational charge is an imaginary number. It is important to keep track of the i in computations when force direction is an issue. There are some good examples of the use of i in computations in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 8 07:54:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l38EsjIR024964; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:54:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l38EshLI024942; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:54:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:54:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AAHf9+QQj4y0Rzj/s7OCnhNllrZE69VyegTVtrMmxbcfkX4WyRwsVW6cEDrjcAF0QZApov4CJzr1RoeCG8zxOJh3YRtrXFnzUWAcPT9QQUmOIRln+i2x+mwXzrcG9Dlhr/y3hK4qF8IcJGQIQg9QDPklLUF7UIoOYTgjJ3pLnlc= ; X-YMail-OSG: T3NzxY8VM1nZAjtIBMK7jHjPU4KHugLDXYxM_Q9mFYENScmFa2AGnHcxmcr6Gg_pnFc_VNfOt84upntixliZvjMR_YO5PayuP2HuxB_2OErGRSB7nZfxybdQQqicdeFOp0dSAv7T2pVshZnhIzbWDJIXAvLPS3Iyy4V27qDei1w- Message-ID: <4619022D.1080305@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 07:54:37 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74295 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Walter Russell Status: O X-Status: Speaking of the long awaited "new age"- whatever that term may hold for you Aquarians, et al. who are into alternative-everything, including the season (or special day) of rebirthing... The term "New Age" in its contemporary sense can be traced all the way back to 1944. That year, the jack-of all-trades aka the modern Leonardo da Vinci: artist, cosmologist, physicist and philosopher - Walter Russell - published an essay in which he discussed his "New Age philosophy" of the spiritual re-awakening of man. He became a hit on the lecture circuit following the 'big one' (WWII and/or the bomb, and the collective guilt that it engendered). In the early days of PBS (back before I blew-up my TV) a number of poorly made episodes appeared consisting of nothing more than lectures and interviews by, or with, Walter Russell, who died in 1963. Here is an unofficial "new age type" website with many links. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/ or slightly more of a science perspective: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Walter_Russell Some the PBS series was possibly lectures given to employees of IBM where he worked for twelve years, being a favorite of the legendary Thomas J. Watson, which is probably a story in itself - as the two may seem miles apart on the surface (mystic scientist vs. staid entrepreneur). Those lectures are probably of much less interest to Vo's than his physics and cosmology material. I tried to find if these are available as a package, but a goggle search turns up lots of other new-age stuff. I had the vague recollection that my former neighbor in Berkeley, the prototypical new-ager: Jeffrey Mishlove ("Thinking Allowed" the Public Television Series) had done this series as well, but no. There has to be a gap of several years in there. Recently the subject of "helionon" and Russell's alternative periodic table has reappeared on a few fori (forums ). Anyway - to make a short story longer -- had one NOT personally seen the charismatic power of this fellow, Walter Russell, but instead had just read what is available on the net (esp. the new age stuff): he could easily be relegated to that category of 'possible cranks' which includes many insightful but 'borderline' individuals (present company on Vo included). Russell had a power of insight that grabbed you, even off of a poorly made video, and even when you could have been watching something as illuminating as professional football . Now ... moving on the real mystery. What is in that Russellarian Easter-egg called "helionon"? Name your poison, new-agers: hydrino? Brown's gas? Orgone? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 8 09:45:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l38GjHNB014560; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:45:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l38GjFgF014539; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:45:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:45:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=N3cNa8za7AWELNPj6bOOPeYzXZIBAXT201h/WerTjLMWDG6DEqYU/BXVKMUHD0l/8cfVVen3hOkXmWYJEolVncKDcNKQ+nDW5huyZJtPMm7GNw32XNyGyRkly3jB1InCd+HbF0g/ScLWWhLHkHCKRnqFtzggtytGxOsqlLnBM4A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=VP6I6tOjxRrwh1MFIibMT/RdLT3Yj5oGCk9k/UGrU37EYFZfONvLerfaBlkbtk0aQiePJpb8Sxz9cmyKehKLHCyEpOxhvuQPp7ghtmV/TJUyitDD2wRztffVySNEznFeK+mtwDgmH5ZJzt2427G/a9PQU5YBFL2ScXbbFOaFmiw= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:45:13 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74296 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Installing Your Prius EV Button Status: RO X-Status: http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf "These instructions allow you to take advantage of the built-in feature of what is commonly called "EV (electric vehicle) Mode" of your 2004+ Prius. In Japan and European versions of the Toyota Prius the vehicle is sold with an EV Button pre-installed by Toyota. For some reason, in the North American version this button is left off (note: speculation focuses on possible . . ." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 8 15:48:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l38MmMYU019486; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 15:48:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l38MmKBN019464; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 15:48:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 15:48:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: "Vortex" Subject: [Vo]:Prime Numbers Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 15:46:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08FB_01C779F5.0879D8E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74297 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08FB_01C779F5.0879D8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received my copy of the book and DVD "Calculate Primes" by James McCanney ( http://CalculatePrimes.com ) two weeks ago and have been studying it and trying to implement the algorithms ( In PERL first, but it should be in "J" (jsoftware.com), but I'm not fluent in that ). He shows that prime numbers are not random and can be generated easily with just addition and subtraction, and claims that integer factorization is easy also. I'm stuck in one aspect of the algorithm, though (for large integers). Is anyone on this list familiar with this and could help? Because of his copyrights and other restrictions, I can't get in to too much detail in public (He claims it renders RSA type encryption schemes broken). Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US ------=_NextPart_000_08FB_01C779F5.0879D8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I = received my copy=20 of the book and DVD "Calculate Primes" by James McCanney  ( http://CalculatePrimes.com ) two = weeks ago=20 and have been studying it and trying to implement the algorithms ( In = PERL=20 first, but it should be in "J"  (jsoftware.com), but I'm not = fluent in=20 that ).
 
He = shows that prime=20 numbers are not random and can be generated easily with just addition = and=20 subtraction, and claims that integer factorization is easy=20 also.
 
I'm = stuck in one=20 aspect of the algorithm, though (for large integers).  Is=20 anyone on this list familiar with this and could = help?
 
Because of his=20 copyrights and other restrictions, I can't get in to too much detail in = public=20 (He claims it renders RSA type encryption schemes = broken).
 
 
Hoyt=20 Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona=20 US
------=_NextPart_000_08FB_01C779F5.0879D8E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 8 18:54:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l391sBWN005249; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 18:54:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l391s9N2005236; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 18:54:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 18:54:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c77a49$fdeff030$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <4619022D.1080305@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:54:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74298 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Walter Russell Status: O X-Status: Howdy Jones, Another link to Russell, fascinating , real person http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/ Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 8 21:35:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l394ZGHd006104; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:35:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l394Z9f5006041; Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:35:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:35:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=mXO46fhPN6qo7SiflB4pJKv+QdmsPVZA2Y7L3Y6QVmWP977Fc3MbZpdV73PaQRdIMuMSlszoPl88tyffyeLjNJKyQL+z9XzM5PERiu/D1DT7mBdsv4r7q7jeOiRJEuQHSJi3NM/Vtzppn01vWOp0c8nSA83UnUF1P52paOxnELg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=CTtKft2cDFCsLGc9wtLYq4h5iWJMl//sNrDSBEy+TKGKzg/7AqpIoDTsmaMuoKX3tvb5T6qMXz+x8iYoakBlWRJgOA3s2UBXscE1vpAyzV6/YI9ccbSQKYM810309TFsHPmXxPP5A/cD7v4iFZsUeXtHzlevUx8O3rPCnA6WRr4= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704082135w703a18b1xc59eee343fd26ece@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:35:08 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Walter Russell In-Reply-To: <001001c77a49$fdeff030$c905a8c0@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30532_13942623.1176093308746" References: <4619022D.1080305@pacbell.net> <001001c77a49$fdeff030$c905a8c0@xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74299 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_30532_13942623.1176093308746 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Walter Russell: The Secret of Light < http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=35> Walter Russell: Space and the Hydrogen Age < http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=35> he had a VERY unique way of thinking about stuff. ive just ordered his periodic table of elements, and will try to figure out, with a friend who is into math and music, how the 9 octave periodic table of elements contains helionon, the polar opposite (when lit, implodes) of hydrogen -- and if there is a way of figuring out scales of combined elements out of it. there has got to be - because russell didnt just throw that stuff up on a piece of paper for fun - it will be tied into the music of the spheres and microcosm/macrocosm (as above so below) type thinking. apparently nobody has done much with the periodic table of elements. but yeah, his scientific sketches are wicked! Scientific Drawings In 1926, Walter Russell published The Universal One, his first book of Russell Cosmogony, sending out copies to over five hundred leading world scientists. some guts! On 09/04/07, R.C.Macaulay wrote: > > > Howdy Jones, > > Another link to Russell, fascinating , real person > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/ > > Richard > > ------=_Part_30532_13942623.1176093308746 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Walter Russell: The Secret of Light < http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=35 >
Walter Russell: Space and the Hydrogen Age < http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=35 >

he had a VERY unique way of thinking about stuff.
ive just ordered his periodic table of elements, and will try to figure out, with a friend who is into math and music, how the 9 octave periodic table of elements contains helionon, the polar opposite (when lit, implodes) of hydrogen -- and if there is a way of figuring out scales of combined elements  out of it. there has got to be - because russell didnt just throw that stuff up on a piece of paper for fun - it will be tied into the music of the spheres and  microcosm/macrocosm (as above so below) type thinking. apparently nobody has done much with the periodic table of elements.

but yeah, his scientific sketches are wicked!
Scientific Drawings
In 1926, Walter Russell published The Universal One, his first book of Russell Cosmogony, sending out copies to over five hundred leading world scientists.

some guts!



On 09/04/07, R.C.Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:

Howdy Jones,

Another link to Russell, fascinating , real person

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/

Richard


------=_Part_30532_13942623.1176093308746-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 00:09:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39795Ow024197; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 00:09:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39793EB024186; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 00:09:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 00:09:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 23:08:56 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74300 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: LOCAL COSMIC MATTER APRIL 8, 2007 DARK ENERGY An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism, and specifically =20 the concept of negative mass charge, were discussed in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf Gravitational penumbrae were discussed in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GravityUmbra.pdf As noted in the above articles, gravity must necessarily be reduced =20 by the effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and =20 graviton absorption. These effects, along with errors in mass =20 estimation due to failure to account for gravimagnetic effects, may =20 account in part for =93dark energy=94 energy observations, the tendency =20= for gravity to be reduced with distance. Further, through =20 symmetry, gravimagnetics indicates the existence of negative mass =20 charge, charge having negative imaginary value. If such charges =20 exist, then super massive black holes above a critical mass are =20 predicted to spew forth, to manufacture from the vacuum, mass having =20= a charge opposed to that of the mass of such a gushing black hole. =20 In the case of spinning black holes or highly magnetic black holes, =20 such an outward flow of matter would be funneled into polar jets. =20 The existence of such jets at the cores of massive galaxies provide =20 some evidence for the existence of this phenomenon. The existence of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a =20= repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational charge =20 containing matter. This matter would have negative weight here on =20 earth. Such matter might simply be called cosmic matter, because the =20= word cosmic is short, and recognizes the likely source of such matter. Cosmic matter is not necessarily antimatter as it can be either =20 matter or antimatter. In fact, again by symmetry, it seems likely a =20= cosmic gamma should decay into a cosmic e+ and e-. Cosmic matter =20 attracts itself, so in a locality consisting entirely of cosmic =20 matter nothing would appear different from our locality. Its spectra =20= should be normal, though photons emitted by such matter (cosmic =20 photons) should also carry negative mass charge, so would be =20 detectable by gravitational *concave* lensing. What distinguishes =20 cosmic matter is that it gravitationally repels normal matter and =20 attracts itself. DARK MATTER AND MIRROR MATTER Cosmic matter is not necessarily mirror matter, because mirror matter =20= has only gravitational charge to us in a normal matter world. Mirror =20= photons, both virtual and real, have little effect on us. In fact, =20 if mirror matter exists, then symmetry demands the existence of =20 mirror matter having both positive and negative mass charge. Cosmic =20= matter can be either mirror matter or not. Further, a black hole =20 consisting of either mirror matter or normal matter, or a mixture of =20= both types, when of sufficient size, should be expected to =20 simultaneously spew forth both normal and mirror matter of the =20 opposed gravitational charge, and in equal proportions. This effect =20 could account for the large proportion of dark matter in the universe. COSMOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES The existence of cosmic matter has profound cosmological =20 consequences. As ordinary black holes gain mass they spew forth =20 cosmic matter. Such matter should repel out a local space for itself =20= and form stars and eventually cosmic matter black holes. Cosmic =20 matter black holes would clearly then repeat the process in reverse. =20= The continual generation of pockets of repelling matter guarantees =20 the continual expansion of the universe. Overall, the universe must =20 expand indefinitely, but in localized zones consisting primarily of =20 one charge type or another, a phoenix effect takes place through =20 generations of alternating black hole types. COSMIC RAYS AS DARK ENERGY Some high energy particles, cosmic rays, can be expected to mix into =20 pockets of the opposing kind, creating dark energy effects even =20 within local homogeneous pockets. Some of the cosmic rays of high =20 energy that enter our solar system and impinge on the earth could =20 consist of cosmic matter. Cosmic rays made of cosmic matter have =20 far more energy than required to overcome the gravitational repulsion =20= of our earth, our sun and our galaxy. Cosmic matter may exist in =20 detectible quantities right here on earth. Further, like cosmic =20 rays in general, it should be expected to occupy the space around us =20 in a highly uniform density and isotropic velocity distribution. =20 Given that a fixed proportion of such cosmic rays are cosmic matter, =20 then this could explain the Pioneer Anomaly - that the Pioneer 1 and =20 2 spacecraft see a reduction in gravity as the intervening distance =20 to earth increases, and in proportion to such distance. The =20 repellant cosmic mass between earth and the Pioneers increases =20 linearly with the distance separating them, as does the force of dark =20= energy observed. SEARCHING FOR COSMIC MATTER Cosmic matter arrives here as comic rays. About 90 percent of =20 cosmic rays are hydrogen, but they impact atmospheric molecules and =20 cause a shower of particles, including gammas, neutrons, kaons, pions =20= and mesons. It is possible the imaginary mass charge is preserved, =20 and most likely detectable product is the hydrogen atom. It might be possible to detect cosmic electrons, but the low mass of =20 the electron combined with its high charge to mass ratio makes a =20 negative gravitational mass detection very difficult. A very slow =20 electron beam separation over over a long distance might be required =20 to distinguish one species from the other. Perhaps cosmic electrons =20 could be sorted out in a long but ordinary resistor, or =20 electrochemical cell, due to a gravitational force powered upward =20 drift causing positive buoyancy. Centrifuges would be of no use. =20 Only gravity can do the separation. Isolating cosmic hydrogen might be much easier than cosmic electrons =20 or even protons, if enough concentration exists on earth. An =20 excellent source of cosmic particles in general would be melting =20 glacier ice. Surface tension should hold cosmic particles in the =20 water long enough to be sampled. Cosmic hydrogen in water would be =20 bound in H2O like ordinary hydrogen - at least long enough to grab =20 samples. If the hydrogen is electrolyzed from the water, and then =20 liquified, it should result in three types. Ordinary hydrogen, half-=20= ordinary-half-cosmic hybrid hydrogen which is highly buoyant, and =20 pure cosmic water with two cosmic protons having negative weight. =20 If a visible amount of liquid cosmic hydrogen is made it should be =20 easy to detect floating in the sealed top of a dewar. If enough of =20 the stuff exists, it might even be possible to separate water =20 molecules based on increasing bouyancy with increasing number of =20 cosmic hydrogen atoms, and then detect them via their bulk water =20 density. Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium, Iron and Gallium, =20 Lithium or Beryllium. The latter three, if in sufficient quantity, =20 should be fairly easy to isolate from glacial runoff, and the cosmic =20 species easily identified if present in sufficient quantities. If tons of pure cosmic matter could be isolated, it could obviously =20 be extremely useful for earth to orbit and space vehicles for =20 reducing the space ship weight. Regards, Horace Heffner= From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 00:36:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l397a6L9001848; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 00:36:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l397a3M1001827; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 00:36:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 00:36:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5B286ADD-E9D9-4A33-8EEC-368F76D21988@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 23:36:01 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74301 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: RO X-Status: LOCAL COSMIC MATTER - APRIL 8, 2007 DARK ENERGY An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism, and specifically =20 the concept of negative mass charge, were discussed in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf Gravitational penumbrae were discussed in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GravityUmbra.pdf As noted in the above articles, gravity must necessarily be reduced =20 by the effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and =20 graviton absorption. These effects, along with errors in mass =20 estimation due to failure to account for gravimagnetic effects, may =20 account in part for =93dark energy=94 energy observations, the tendency =20= for gravity to be reduced with distance. Further, through =20 symmetry, gravimagnetics indicates the existence of negative mass =20 charge, charge having negative imaginary value. If such charges =20 exist, then super massive black holes above a critical mass are =20 predicted to spew forth, to manufacture from the vacuum, mass having =20= a charge opposed to that of the mass of such a gushing black hole. =20 In the case of spinning black holes or highly magnetic black holes, =20 such an outward flow of matter would be funneled into polar jets. =20 The existence of such jets at the cores of massive galaxies provide =20 some evidence for the existence of this phenomenon. The existence of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a =20= repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational charge =20 containing matter. This matter would have negative weight here on =20 earth. Such matter might simply be called cosmic matter, because the =20= word cosmic is short, and recognizes the likely source of such matter. Cosmic matter is not necessarily antimatter as it can be either =20 matter or antimatter. In fact, again by symmetry, it seems likely a =20= cosmic gamma should decay into a cosmic e+ and cosmic e-. Cosmic =20 matter attracts itself, so in a locality consisting entirely of =20 cosmic matter nothing would appear different from our locality. Its =20 spectra should be normal, though photons emitted by such matter =20 (cosmic photons) should also carry negative mass charge, so would be =20 detectable by gravitational concave lensing. Similarly, ordinary =20 ligh would experience concave lensing near a cosmic black hole. What =20= distinguishes cosmic matter is that it gravitationally repels normal =20 matter and attracts itself. DARK MATTER AND MIRROR MATTER Cosmic matter is not necessarily mirror matter, because mirror matter =20= has only gravitational charge to us in a normal matter world. Mirror =20= photons, both virtual and real, have little effect on us. In fact, =20 if mirror matter exists, then symmetry demands the existence of =20 mirror matter having both positive and negative mass charge. Cosmic =20= matter can be either mirror matter or not. Further, a black hole =20 consisting of either mirror matter or normal matter, or a mixture of =20= both types, when of sufficient size, should be expected to =20 simultaneously spew forth both normal and mirror matter of the =20 opposed gravitational charge, and in equal proportions. This effect =20 could account for the large proportion of dark matter in the universe. COSMOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES The existence of cosmic matter has profound cosmological =20 consequences. As ordinary black holes gain mass they spew forth =20 cosmic matter. Such matter should repel out a local space for itself =20= and form stars and eventually cosmic matter black holes. Cosmic =20 matter black holes would clearly then repeat the process in reverse. =20= The continual generation of pockets of repelling matter guarantees =20 the continual expansion of the universe. Overall, the universe must =20 expand indefinitely, but in localized zones consisting primarily of =20 one charge type or another, a phoenix effect takes place through =20 generations of alternating black hole types. COSMIC RAYS AS DARK ENERGY Some high energy particles, cosmic rays, can be expected to mix into =20 pockets of the opposing kind, creating dark energy effects even =20 within local homogeneous pockets. Some of the cosmic rays of high =20 energy that enter our solar system and impinge on the earth could =20 consist of cosmic matter. Cosmic rays made of cosmic matter have =20 far more energy than required to overcome the gravitational repulsion =20= of our earth, our sun and our galaxy. Cosmic matter may exist in =20 detectible quantities right here on earth. Further, like cosmic =20 rays in general, it should be expected to occupy the space around us =20 in a highly uniform density and isotropic velocity distribution. =20 Given that a fixed proportion of such cosmic rays are cosmic matter, =20 then this could explain the Pioneer Anomaly - that the Pioneer 1 and =20 2 spacecraft see a reduction in gravity as the intervening distance =20 to earth increases, and in proportion to such distance. The =20 repellant cosmic mass between earth and the Pioneers increases =20 linearly with the distance separating them, as does the force of dark =20= energy observed. SEARCHING FOR COSMIC MATTER Cosmic matter arrives here as comic rays. About 90 percent of =20 cosmic rays are hydrogen, but they impact atmospheric molecules and =20 cause a shower of particles, including gammas, neutrons, kaons, pions =20= and mesons. It is possible the imaginary mass charge is preserved, =20 and most likely detectable product is the hydrogen atom. It might be possible to detect cosmic electrons, but the low mass of =20 the electron combined with its high charge to mass ratio makes a =20 negative gravitational mass detection very difficult. A very slow =20 electron beam separation over over a long distance might be required =20 to distinguish one species from the other. Perhaps cosmic electrons =20 could be sorted out in a long but ordinary resistor, or =20 electrochemical cell, due to a gravitational force powered upward =20 drift causing positive buoyancy. Centrifuges would be of no use. =20 Only gravity can do the separation. Isolating cosmic hydrogen might be much easier than cosmic electrons =20 or even protons, if enough concentration exists on earth. An =20 excellent source of cosmic particles in general would be melting =20 glacier ice. Surface tension should hold cosmic particles in the =20 water long enough to be sampled. Cosmic hydrogen in water would be =20 bound in H2O like ordinary hydrogen - at least long enough to grab =20 samples. If the hydrogen is electrolyzed from the water, and then =20 liquified, it should result in three types. Ordinary hydrogen, half-=20= ordinary-half-cosmic hybrid hydrogen which is highly buoyant, and =20 pure cosmic water with two cosmic protons having negative weight. =20 If a visible amount of liquid cosmic hydrogen is made it should be =20 easy to detect floating in the sealed top of a dewar. If enough of =20 the stuff exists, it might even be possible to separate water =20 molecules based on increasing bouyancy with increasing number of =20 cosmic hydrogen atoms, and then detect them via their bulk water =20 density. Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium, Iron and Gallium, =20 Lithium or Beryllium. The latter three, if in sufficient quantity, =20 should be fairly easy to isolate from glacial runoff, and the cosmic =20 species easily identified if present in sufficient quantities. If tons of pure cosmic matter could be isolated, it could obviously =20 be extremely useful for earth to orbit and space vehicles for =20 reducing the space ship weight. Regards, Horace Heffner= From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 07:52:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39EpwDg021806; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:51:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39EpuOw021778; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:51:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:51:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=utojPQhS8iT+IMfAN/vxUE/R9q/biVKfhmoZGFq0zbNOFgvzxNB5EgtLtr32K+ca5OMp1G+xbO7Ip0cWXSmyzG5ePl2kuSZCjNq0vi93FwX4ZbuTZlqq9fT693snOR/anzfGjtTw8jhd1Rss9zbv/j92mPZSKSz5EPbccCL7j6I= ; X-YMail-OSG: Wayh04cVM1miSwH5CMBUCJEfQnzbN3NB2L1puWF8aVxxnWuIyEW96cqHYSXrDHafTVmyQBQtHwXe5DvkXOHWraex6qGN_eOT_SxjXZrudoc5ZRwKQUY- Message-ID: <461A52FD.9060307@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 07:51:41 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Local Cosmic Matter References: <5B286ADD-E9D9-4A33-8EEC-368F76D21988@mtaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <5B286ADD-E9D9-4A33-8EEC-368F76D21988@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74302 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: =2E.. am trying to put a subject line on this posting, as it fell prey to= =20 the Vo blank subject 'virus'... I love the symmetry implications of this essay. Not to mention the=20 energy implications: "Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium,=20 Iron and Gallium, Lithium or Beryllium. The latter three, if in=20 sufficient quantity, should be fairly easy to isolate from glacial=20 runoff, and the cosmic species easily identified if present in=20 sufficient quantities." No doubt the "glacial runoff" aspect of this is already being=20 investigated by Horace... and perhaps a bit earlier than normal this=20 year as the Glaciers in Alaska are melting. Is this related to long life expectancies in certain areas? It all ties into the "something in the water" aspect of the Graneau=20 water arc - as well. Not to mention the other water-health hypotheses=20 (as an alternative or explanation of Ormus or magnetite enhancement). Perhaps there is a form of magnetite-colloid which consists of several=20 normal Fe atoms which are bound to a cosmic-matter allotrope ??? Jones Horace Heffner wrote: > LOCAL COSMIC MATTER - APRIL 8, 2007 >=20 > DARK ENERGY >=20 > An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism, and specifically the = > concept of negative mass charge, were discussed in: >=20 > http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf >=20 > Gravitational penumbrae were discussed in: >=20 > http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GravityUmbra.pdf >=20 > As noted in the above articles, gravity must necessarily be reduced by = > the effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and graviton= =20 > absorption. These effects, along with errors in mass estimation due t= o=20 > failure to account for gravimagnetic effects, may account in part for=20 > =93dark energy=94 energy observations, the tendency for gravity to be=20 > reduced with distance. Further, through symmetry, gravimagnetics=20 > indicates the existence of negative mass charge, charge having negativ= e=20 > imaginary value. If such charges exist, then super massive black=20 > holes above a critical mass are predicted to spew forth, to manufacture= =20 > from the vacuum, mass having a charge opposed to that of the mass of=20 > such a gushing black hole. In the case of spinning black holes or=20 > highly magnetic black holes, such an outward flow of matter would be=20 > funneled into polar jets. The existence of such jets at the cores of=20 > massive galaxies provide some evidence for the existence of this=20 > phenomenon. >=20 > The existence of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a=20 > repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational charge=20 > containing matter. This matter would have negative weight here on=20 > earth. Such matter might simply be called cosmic matter, because the=20 > word cosmic is short, and recognizes the likely source of such matter. >=20 > Cosmic matter is not necessarily antimatter as it can be either matter = > or antimatter. In fact, again by symmetry, it seems likely a cosmic=20 > gamma should decay into a cosmic e+ and cosmic e-. Cosmic matter=20 > attracts itself, so in a locality consisting entirely of cosmic matter = > nothing would appear different from our locality. Its spectra should b= e=20 > normal, though photons emitted by such matter (cosmic photons) should=20 > also carry negative mass charge, so would be detectable by gravitationa= l=20 > concave lensing. Similarly, ordinary ligh would experience concave=20 > lensing near a cosmic black hole. What distinguishes cosmic matter is = > that it gravitationally repels normal matter and attracts itself. >=20 >=20 > DARK MATTER AND MIRROR MATTER >=20 > Cosmic matter is not necessarily mirror matter, because mirror matter=20 > has only gravitational charge to us in a normal matter world. Mirror=20 > photons, both virtual and real, have little effect on us. In fact, if = > mirror matter exists, then symmetry demands the existence of mirror=20 > matter having both positive and negative mass charge. Cosmic matter=20 > can be either mirror matter or not. Further, a black hole consisting=20 > of either mirror matter or normal matter, or a mixture of both types, = > when of sufficient size, should be expected to simultaneously spew fort= h=20 > both normal and mirror matter of the opposed gravitational charge, and = > in equal proportions. This effect could account for the large=20 > proportion of dark matter in the universe. >=20 >=20 > COSMOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES >=20 > The existence of cosmic matter has profound cosmological consequences. = =20 > As ordinary black holes gain mass they spew forth cosmic matter. Such = > matter should repel out a local space for itself and form stars and=20 > eventually cosmic matter black holes. Cosmic matter black holes would= =20 > clearly then repeat the process in reverse. The continual generation o= f=20 > pockets of repelling matter guarantees the continual expansion of the=20 > universe. Overall, the universe must expand indefinitely, but in=20 > localized zones consisting primarily of one charge type or another, a=20 > phoenix effect takes place through generations of alternating black hol= e=20 > types. >=20 >=20 > COSMIC RAYS AS DARK ENERGY >=20 > Some high energy particles, cosmic rays, can be expected to mix into=20 > pockets of the opposing kind, creating dark energy effects even within = > local homogeneous pockets. Some of the cosmic rays of high energy that= =20 > enter our solar system and impinge on the earth could consist of cosmic= =20 > matter. Cosmic rays made of cosmic matter have far more energy than=20 > required to overcome the gravitational repulsion of our earth, our sun = > and our galaxy. Cosmic matter may exist in detectible quantities right= =20 > here on earth. Further, like cosmic rays in general, it should be=20 > expected to occupy the space around us in a highly uniform density and = > isotropic velocity distribution. Given that a fixed proportion of such= =20 > cosmic rays are cosmic matter, then this could explain the Pioneer=20 > Anomaly - that the Pioneer 1 and 2 spacecraft see a reduction in gravit= y=20 > as the intervening distance to earth increases, and in proportion to=20 > such distance. The repellant cosmic mass between earth and the Pioneer= s=20 > increases linearly with the distance separating them, as does the force= =20 > of dark energy observed. >=20 > SEARCHING FOR COSMIC MATTER >=20 > Cosmic matter arrives here as comic rays. About 90 percent of cosmic = > rays are hydrogen, but they impact atmospheric molecules and cause a=20 > shower of particles, including gammas, neutrons, kaons, pions and=20 > mesons. It is possible the imaginary mass charge is preserved, and mos= t=20 > likely detectable product is the hydrogen atom. >=20 > It might be possible to detect cosmic electrons, but the low mass of th= e=20 > electron combined with its high charge to mass ratio makes a negative=20 > gravitational mass detection very difficult. A very slow electron beam= =20 > separation over over a long distance might be required to distinguish=20 > one species from the other. Perhaps cosmic electrons could be sorted=20 > out in a long but ordinary resistor, or electrochemical cell, due to a = > gravitational force powered upward drift causing positive buoyancy. =20 > Centrifuges would be of no use. Only gravity can do the separation. >=20 > Isolating cosmic hydrogen might be much easier than cosmic electrons or= =20 > even protons, if enough concentration exists on earth. An excellent=20 > source of cosmic particles in general would be melting glacier ice. =20 > Surface tension should hold cosmic particles in the water long enough t= o=20 > be sampled. Cosmic hydrogen in water would be bound in H2O like=20 > ordinary hydrogen - at least long enough to grab samples. If the=20 > hydrogen is electrolyzed from the water, and then liquified, it should = > result in three types. Ordinary hydrogen, half-ordinary-half-cosmic=20 > hybrid hydrogen which is highly buoyant, and pure cosmic water with two= =20 > cosmic protons having negative weight. If a visible amount of liquid = > cosmic hydrogen is made it should be easy to detect floating in the=20 > sealed top of a dewar. If enough of the stuff exists, it might even b= e=20 > possible to separate water molecules based on increasing bouyancy with = > increasing number of cosmic hydrogen atoms, and then detect them via=20 > their bulk water density. >=20 > Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium, Iron and Gallium, Lithiu= m=20 > or Beryllium. The latter three, if in sufficient quantity, should be = > fairly easy to isolate from glacial runoff, and the cosmic species=20 > easily identified if present in sufficient quantities. >=20 > If tons of pure cosmic matter could be isolated, it could obviously be = > extremely useful for earth to orbit and space vehicles for reducing the= =20 > space ship weight. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Horace Heffner >=20 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 08:03:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39F302O028488; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:03:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39F2xCX028458; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:02:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:02:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0531DWC5znMAo1MnYPM7uJilI3ufc2B813nwfRwp7S63H5hWAH1uz9aoXpf7gMCt+akjwtER9gtb5AijBIfsnMD+Psnke46jtr/hGPBacE4T2Z52X+VhmTFX7za/MI70zXeJE8wh95SiPQZuWVAprxz6DMZoOYgFYyIC3y1lEHg= ; X-YMail-OSG: OkJRfHgVM1ksolwIswqcyoXvezz6JHU.pRMxBmGVrOx9.EpPWZsQgnTplZ29mv4vW39.T2DA9A-- Message-ID: <461A559A.5090407@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 08:02:50 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Local Cosmic Matter References: <5B286ADD-E9D9-4A33-8EEC-368F76D21988@mtaonline.net> <461A52FD.9060307@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <461A52FD.9060307@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74303 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Perhaps there is a form of magnetite-colloid which consists of several > normal Fe atoms which are bound to a cosmic-matter allotrope ??? Meant to add - "bound magnetically" since the ferromagnetic force would overwhelm the slight gravitational replusion.... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 08:13:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39FDoNL028660; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:13:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39FDlws028634; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:13:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:13:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <5B286ADD-E9D9-4A33-8EEC-368F76D21988@mtaonline.net> References: <5B286ADD-E9D9-4A33-8EEC-368F76D21988@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1EF8A460-3A98-498C-B1DA-042797FD6EB9@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Local Cosmic Matter Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:13:37 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74304 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: LOCAL COSMIC MATTER - APRIL 8, 2007 DARK ENERGY An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism, and specifically =20 the concept of negative mass charge, were discussed in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf Gravitational penumbrae were discussed in: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GravityUmbra.pdf As noted in the above articles, gravity must necessarily be reduced =20 by the effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and =20 graviton absorption. These effects, along with errors in mass =20 estimation due to failure to account for gravimagnetic effects, may =20 account in part for =93dark energy=94 energy observations, the tendency =20= for gravity to be reduced with distance. Further, through =20 symmetry, gravimagnetics indicates the existence of negative mass =20 charge, charge having negative imaginary value. If such charges =20 exist, then super massive black holes above a critical mass are =20 predicted to spew forth, to manufacture from the vacuum, mass having =20= a charge opposed to that of the mass of such a gushing black hole. =20 In the case of spinning black holes or highly magnetic black holes, =20 such an outward flow of matter would be funneled into polar jets. =20 The existence of such jets at the cores of massive galaxies provide =20 some evidence for the existence of this phenomenon. The existence of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a =20= repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational charge =20 containing matter. This matter would have negative weight here on =20 earth. Such matter might simply be called cosmic matter, because the =20= word cosmic is short, and recognizes the likely source of such matter. Cosmic matter is not necessarily antimatter as it can be either =20 matter or antimatter. In fact, again by symmetry, it seems likely a =20= cosmic gamma should decay into a cosmic e+ and cosmic e-. Cosmic =20 matter attracts itself, so in a locality consisting entirely of =20 cosmic matter nothing would appear different from our locality. Its =20 spectra should be normal, though photons emitted by such matter =20 (cosmic photons) should also carry negative mass charge, so would be =20 detectable by gravitational concave lensing. Similarly, ordinary =20 ligh would experience concave lensing near a cosmic black hole. What =20= distinguishes cosmic matter is that it gravitationally repels normal =20 matter and attracts itself. DARK MATTER AND MIRROR MATTER Cosmic matter is not necessarily mirror matter, because mirror matter =20= has only gravitational charge to us in a normal matter world. Mirror =20= photons, both virtual and real, have little effect on us. In fact, =20 if mirror matter exists, then symmetry demands the existence of =20 mirror matter having both positive and negative mass charge. Cosmic =20= matter can be either mirror matter or not. Further, a black hole =20 consisting of either mirror matter or normal matter, or a mixture of =20= both types, when of sufficient size, should be expected to =20 simultaneously spew forth both normal and mirror matter of the =20 opposed gravitational charge, and in equal proportions. This effect =20 could account for the large proportion of dark matter in the universe. COSMOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES The existence of cosmic matter has profound cosmological =20 consequences. As ordinary black holes gain mass they spew forth =20 cosmic matter. Such matter should repel out a local space for itself =20= and form stars and eventually cosmic matter black holes. Cosmic =20 matter black holes would clearly then repeat the process in reverse. =20= The continual generation of pockets of repelling matter guarantees =20 the continual expansion of the universe. Overall, the universe must =20 expand indefinitely, but in localized zones consisting primarily of =20 one charge type or another, a phoenix effect takes place through =20 generations of alternating black hole types. COSMIC RAYS AS DARK ENERGY Some high energy particles, cosmic rays, can be expected to mix into =20 pockets of the opposing kind, creating dark energy effects even =20 within local homogeneous pockets. Some of the cosmic rays of high =20 energy that enter our solar system and impinge on the earth could =20 consist of cosmic matter. Cosmic rays made of cosmic matter have =20 far more energy than required to overcome the gravitational repulsion =20= of our earth, our sun and our galaxy. Cosmic matter may exist in =20 detectible quantities right here on earth. Further, like cosmic =20 rays in general, it should be expected to occupy the space around us =20 in a highly uniform density and isotropic velocity distribution. =20 Given that a fixed proportion of such cosmic rays are cosmic matter, =20 then this could explain the Pioneer Anomaly - that the Pioneer 10 and =20= 11 spacecraft see a reduction in gravity as the intervening distance =20 to earth increases, and in proportion to such distance. The =20 repellant cosmic mass between earth and the Pioneers increases =20 linearly with the distance separating them, as does the force of dark =20= energy observed. SEARCHING FOR COSMIC MATTER Cosmic matter arrives here as comic rays. About 90 percent of =20 cosmic rays are hydrogen, but they impact atmospheric molecules and =20 cause a shower of particles, including gammas, neutrons, kaons, pions =20= and mesons. It is possible the imaginary mass charge is preserved, =20 and most likely detectable product is the hydrogen atom. It might be possible to detect cosmic electrons, but the low mass of =20 the electron combined with its high charge to mass ratio makes a =20 negative gravitational mass detection very difficult. A very slow =20 electron beam separation over over a long distance might be required =20 to distinguish one species from the other. Perhaps cosmic electrons =20 could be sorted out in a long but ordinary resistor, or =20 electrochemical cell, due to a gravitational force powered upward =20 drift causing positive buoyancy. Centrifuges would be of no use to =20 look for cosmic matter, only mirror matter. Only gravity can do the =20 separation of cosmic matter. Isolating cosmic hydrogen might be much easier than cosmic electrons =20 or even protons, if enough concentration exists on earth. An =20 excellent source of cosmic particles in general would be melting =20 glacier ice. Surface tension should hold cosmic particles in the =20 water long enough to be sampled. Cosmic hydrogen in water would be =20 bound in H2O like ordinary hydrogen - at least long enough to grab =20 samples. If the hydrogen is electrolyzed from the water, and then =20 liquified, it should result in three types. Ordinary hydrogen, half-=20= ordinary-half-cosmic hybrid hydrogen which is highly buoyant, and =20 pure cosmic water with two cosmic protons having negative weight. =20 If a visible amount of liquid cosmic hydrogen is made it should be =20 easy to detect floating in the sealed top of a dewar. If enough of =20 the stuff exists, it might even be possible to separate water =20 molecules based on increasing bouyancy with increasing number of =20 cosmic hydrogen atoms, and then detect them via their bulk water =20 density. Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium, Iron, Gallium, Lithium =20= or Beryllium. The latter three, if in sufficient quantity, should =20 be fairly easy to isolate from glacial runoff, and the cosmic species =20= easily identified if present in sufficient quantities. If tons of pure cosmic matter could be isolated, it could obviously =20 be extremely useful for earth to orbit and space vehicles for =20 reducing the space ship weight. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 08:53:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39Fr4Td011841; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:53:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39Fqxl3011802; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:52:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:52:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <461A52FD.9060307@pacbell.net> References: <5B286ADD-E9D9-4A33-8EEC-368F76D21988@mtaonline.net> <461A52FD.9060307@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <27EF3D92-3CB7-4BF6-9B95-1F197A7899F5@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Local Cosmic Matter Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:52:55 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74305 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 9, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > ... am trying to put a subject line on this posting, as it fell > prey to the Vo blank subject 'virus'... Yes, I'm still trying as well, and that was indeed the title swallowed. > > I love the symmetry implications of this essay. Not to mention the > energy implications: "Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of > Calcium, Iron and Gallium, Lithium or Beryllium. The latter three, > if in sufficient quantity, should be fairly easy to isolate from > glacial runoff, and the cosmic species easily identified if present > in sufficient quantities." > > No doubt the "glacial runoff" aspect of this is already being > investigated by Horace... No not yet. I've certainly considered it in the past, especially in relation to mirror matter or monopoles, but it would be difficult for me these days. > and perhaps a bit earlier than normal this year as the Glaciers in > Alaska are melting. Yes, melting away. What a waste on so many levels. > > Is this related to long life expectancies in certain areas? The stuff would have practically no effect as far as I know - except possibly in energy balances, and that only in high concentrations and only if some form of gravitational charge annihilation can occur. If cosmic matter did have some chemical effect then that would be handy for detecting or isolating it. Mirror matter, as ghostly as it is, would likely be more detectable. See: http://www.ph.unimelb.edu.au/~foot/ > > It all ties into the "something in the water" aspect of the Graneau > water arc - as well. Not to mention the other water-health > hypotheses (as an alternative or explanation of Ormus or magnetite > enhancement). I must admit Graneau's "something in the water" aspect has had me puzzled. I find it hard to believe it is just sunlight. Exposure to cosmic rays doesn't require placing in sunlight though, so I just don't know what's going on there. > > Perhaps there is a form of magnetite-colloid which consists of > several normal Fe atoms which are bound to a cosmic-matter > allotrope ??? Cosmic matter, if it exists as defined, is all around us, imbedded in all kinds of molecules. Cosmic rays are responsible for maintaining the C14 concentration in the atmosphere, 40 tons worth, as well as numerous other kinds of crustal isotopes. Over 4 billion years worth. That's a lot of matter. C14 is in every living thing. Further, meteoric dust rains down on us daily, continually burying past artifacts, as well as seeding rain and snow. Many meteors have been exposed to cosmic rays for billions of years. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 11:01:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39I1Kbh011934; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 11:01:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39I1IKB011913; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 11:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 11:01:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OTE6iUMcYGZcHBgo8Cn+hfSd75AGq94r9I1M6DfHRuySWVH4MA0EdFlVTu3NEI4v8Jf/rgMYTkr93uxwUyyuF9XllMhSITSxCfv4GrWL2ndWEAx78CGDZ/Li7sBZYrv+ZVBPYKwklcxPX4R4AXZTWdpJ4tliLOvV/buQZbslvhI= ; X-YMail-OSG: zmuWwQ4VM1kwWK9IDNHH2CbZ0eEAXmWxKQc8kWPqLt0k_Th9TvYPLuOvK_n_p6Ty4_JZyFVc0ROOJLOsyrl0jaO7NUCwyu7Tl6e1fm9mP2mmj1tF0GE- Message-ID: <461A7F62.5030705@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 11:01:06 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <4619022D.1080305@pacbell.net> <001001c77a49$fdeff030$c905a8c0@xptower> <538fa8f10704082135w703a18b1xc59eee343fd26ece@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10704082135w703a18b1xc59eee343fd26ece@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74306 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Walter Russell Status: O X-Status: Since 'synchronicity' is apparently trying to juxtapose a remembrance of = Walter Russell with intriguing speculation about the identity of various = cosmic species from black holes - and other dark matter candidates... =2E..including perhaps, Russell's concept of an inert "helionon" Then it would be remiss not to add something additional onto the=20 implication of the Laughlin quasi-particle - which is a subset of the=20 fractionally charged electron. Here is the recent story of 'new state of = matter' mentioned a few weeks ago. Notice that Millikan/ Ehrenhaft is=20 never mentioned. Potential big blunders seldom are. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-03/ns-hrf031407.php After all - a Nobel came out of that work, and the fractional quantum=20 hall effect (FQHE) is mainstream, but lest one stray a little in any=20 direction from there and whoa ... pathological science . W. Russell had already predicted Neptunium and Plutonium, many years=20 ahead of their discovery- which elements were published in his=20 alternative periodic table of the elements in 1926. He named them=20 Uridium and Urium. He did not receive the Nobel for this prediction=20 however. He was not a mainstream tenured physicist - so how could he?=20 "We have to protect our phony baloney jobs," as Mel Brooks might opine. Back to tenured physicists (at Stanford - i.e. Laughlin). From the=20 article: "In the experiment, electrons moving in the interface between=20 two semiconductors behaved as though they were made up of particles with = only a fraction of the electron=92s charge." This so-called fractional quantum hall effect (FQHE) suggested that=20 fully charged electrons may not be elementary particles after all.=20 Electrons under certain conditions can congregate in a way that gives=20 them the illusion of having fractional charge =96 an explanation that=20 earned Laughlin, Horst St=F6rmer and Daniel Tsui [L.S.T.] the Nobel prize= "=20 [in 1998]. It is not clear that Russell's table does not also predict=20 this particle, nor that quantum "half-spin" is not also a recognition=20 that this particle e- is never fully in our 3-space. Even if it is, isn't the "illusion of having fractional charge" a nice=20 way of telling the mainstream - "hey, you already blew it once, but=20 we're not going to rub it in just yet, if we get the big prize"? Enough salt in that wound.... which is a long way from healing. Anyway - a further candidate particle, created under "certain=20 conditions" which should be mentioned in this context is a proton bound=20 by two fractionally charged electrons at a radius greatly below the Bohr = radius... - and electrically neutral due to fractionally charge (each of 1/2=20 normal charge). This is not the Mills hydrino-hydride, as he firmly predicts that=20 particular particle to have a -1 charge. That mistake on his part is=20 probably why he has never been able to demonstrate the species, at least = to a skeptical audience (and may never win the big one). Next to consider: a variation of Fred Sparber's idea of the leptonic=20 triad "electronium" but this candidate species would be an uncharged=20 variety consisting of a fully charged positron and two fractionally=20 charged (1/2 normal charge) electrons. The advantage of this species=20 over Ps in certain situations - is that it can account for the=20 appearance of an electron in 3-space with no source (if one is willing=20 to dispense with any requirement for conservation of charge across=20 dimensional boundaries). Is this food-for-thought... or merely time for a 'pepto' to prevent=20 indigestion? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 15:20:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39MKTNZ023946; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:20:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39MKRGt023924; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:20:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:20:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c77af5$4a890b60$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Walter Russell Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 17:20:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77ACB.617473C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74307 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77ACB.617473C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77ACB.617473C0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77ACB.617473C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote... It is not clear that Russell's table does not also predict=20 this particle, nor that quantum "half-spin" is not also a recognition=20 that this particle e- is never fully in our 3-space. Even if it is, isn't the "illusion of having fractional charge" a nice=20 way of telling the mainstream - "hey, you already blew it once, but=20 we're not going to rub it in just yet, if we get the big prize"? Is this food-for-thought... or merely time for a 'pepto' to prevent=20 indigestion? Howdy Jones, One must have a huge cup of Texas coffee to sip while digesting a "Jones = moment" and an extemely elastic mind to stretch around thoughts provoked = by such "moments". Or as Burl Ives quipped (in the movie " The Big Country") to Chuck = Conners... "perhaps there's a side to you I never saw before" Good wording,,."never fully in our 3-space". and excellent wording.. = "illusion of having a fractional charge". Knowing how these thoughts = issue forth from that fertile brain of yours is not as important as the = stimulation. As I sit in my rockin' chair on the front porch of the Dime = Box Saloon watching a water vortex experiment.... and gaze at the water = flowing " upward" as it is flowing downward..while emptying the vessel I = can better accept both wordings. The more we study on it, the less we understand..One of my favorite = science books.. the book of Job.. contains dialogue with some fellows = about the workings of nature and concludes with the question by God.{ = para-phrased by Richard} " if you are so smart. tell me how I did it". Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77ACB.617473C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote...

It is not clear that Russell's table does not also predict
this = particle,=20 nor that quantum "half-spin" is not also a recognition
that this = particle e-=20 is never fully in our 3-space.

Even if it is, isn't the "illusion = of=20 having fractional charge" a nice
way of telling the mainstream - = "hey, you=20 already blew it once, but
we're not going to rub it in just yet, if = we get=20 the big prize"?

Is this food-for-thought... or merely time for a 'pepto' to prevent=20
indigestion?

Howdy Jones,

One must have a huge cup of Texas coffee to sip while digesting a = "Jones=20 moment" and an extemely elastic mind to stretch around thoughts provoked = by such=20 "moments".

Or as Burl Ives quipped (in the movie " The Big Country") to = Chuck=20 Conners... "perhaps there's a side to you I never saw = before"<grin>

Good wording,,."never fully in our 3-space".  and excellent = wording..=20 "illusion of having a fractional charge". Knowing  how these = thoughts issue=20 forth from that fertile brain of yours is not as important as the=20 stimulation. As I sit in my rockin' chair on the front porch of the = Dime=20 Box Saloon watching a water vortex experiment.... and gaze at the water = flowing=20 " upward" as it is flowing downward..while emptying the vessel I can = better=20 accept  both wordings.

 The more we study on it, the less we understand..One of my = favorite=20 science books.. the book of Job.. contains dialogue with some fellows = about the=20 workings of nature and concludes with the question by God.{ para-phrased = by=20 Richard}  " if you are so smart. tell me how I did it".

Richard

 


 

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C77ACB.617473C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77ACB.617473C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c77af5$4a476e80$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C77ACB.617473C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 16:04:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39N4bMx024831; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:04:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39N4WWu024799; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:04:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:04:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c77afb$752cf8d0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Walter Russell Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:04:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C77AD1.8C0D8BC0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74309 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C77AD1.8C0D8BC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C77AD1.8C0D8BC0" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C77AD1.8C0D8BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankPhiip wrote.. The truth is that it isn't in any space - 3- or otherwise. There=20 really is nothing there except what we project/perceive Nth-hand and=20 draw conjectures from... whoever we are. As Hui Neng said, "From the first there is Nothing." Howdy Philip, Yes!, I know that and you know that. Walter Russell spent more time = thinking about it than I have and he concluded he was open to = suggestions. One of these days somebody may explain a lot of things I find no answers = to... Russell delved into many including the periodic tables etc.. but = he stopped before he got into colors. hmmm. My wife is a renowned artist and she states categorically there are 3 = primary colors.. but I say there are 12.. we just can't see the rest.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C77AD1.8C0D8BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Phiip wrote..
 
The truth is that it isn't in any space - 3- or otherwise.  = There=20
really is nothing there except what we project/perceive Nth-hand and =
draw conjectures from... whoever we are.

As Hui Neng said, = "From the=20 first there is Nothing."
 
 
Howdy Philip,
 
Yes!, I know that and you know that. Walter Russell spent more time = thinking about it than I have and he concluded he was open to = suggestions.
One of these days somebody may explain a lot of things I find no = answers=20 to... Russell delved into many including the periodic tables etc.. but = he=20 stopped before he got into colors. hmmm.
  My wife is a renowned = artist=20 and she states categorically there are 3 primary colors.. but I say = there are=20 12.. we just can't see the rest.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C77AD1.8C0D8BC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C77AD1.8C0D8BC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000801c77afb$74deffe0$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C77AD1.8C0D8BC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 16:23:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39NN3nj023592; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:23:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39NN1ON023560; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:23:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:23:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=re4Xf1ArWfS8+RPDk3YQX92q+GdknqfM6jEdrVjeIbYwiFkLPRNS1lTbx4fZHTx2/6vJNH36ujuGpyJCVhRVq80I1oAK0+kr1w6dIBiBj/gll36yWQs6FYREl1KzuN7QAHUNLeVTiYbbrwOopq9EBvlq7W7uxPai6pT+a/LMA+8= ; X-YMail-OSG: wE7gplUVM1mMX25myeXjuXOaM.cCeecd67romnED6iJJW6D6h6q95EKw2IfTu00R_g-- Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.1.20070409191814.01a62c50@rogers.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:23:31 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Walter Russell In-Reply-To: <000d01c77afb$752cf8d0$c905a8c0@xptower> References: <000d01c77afb$752cf8d0$c905a8c0@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74310 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: Richard, That "somebody" will be you, no doubt. I'm a totally unknown artist, and I say that a primary is whatever you say is a primary - seen or unseen. I also happen to be a huge fan of black and of white - nothing and everything - and sometimes colours just get in the way of a good picture. P. At 07:04 PM 4/9/2007, you wrote: >Phiip wrote.. > >The truth is that it isn't in any space - 3- or otherwise. There >really is nothing there except what we project/perceive Nth-hand and >draw conjectures from... whoever we are. > >As Hui Neng said, "From the first there is Nothing." > > >Howdy Philip, > >Yes!, I know that and you know that. Walter Russell spent more time >thinking about it than I have and he concluded he was open to suggestions. >One of these days somebody may explain a lot of things I find no >answers to... Russell delved into many including the periodic tables >etc.. but he stopped before he got into colors. hmmm. > My wife is a renowned artist and she states categorically there > are 3 primary colors.. but I say there are 12.. we just can't see the rest. > >Richard > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 9 15:27:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l39MRlJG000702; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:27:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l39MRklp000675; Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:27:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:27:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=wnjM3+ZII5akhc6/H98OlC1IyK34m6EVFemjnAHmCBr2k6xLLPHZfBRLAmOi6XzSaxX/jemcZ8nLPcGeiem0WpkkuEcIhIW3InpGcw6cLSubFrmH9Cn0tfYwBQWq97US3Du5yKBHUiRNxzSqYn5+wf3USz0BTtiy1eV39D2xrdQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: n1ExpJEVM1mdYrGOlqRG2VP2Q.Wyb3EiWAtMJwRjompYLs4TuJcm3.qmnpNWJfcoPw-- Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.1.20070409182606.01a67a40@rogers.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 18:28:16 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Walter Russell In-Reply-To: <001001c77af5$4a890b60$c905a8c0@xptower> References: <001001c77af5$4a890b60$c905a8c0@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74308 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: The truth is that it isn't in any space - 3- or otherwise. There really is nothing there except what we project/perceive Nth-hand and draw conjectures from... whoever we are. As Hui Neng said, "From the first there is Nothing." P. At 06:20 PM 4/9/2007, you wrote: >Jones wrote... > >It is not clear that Russell's table does not also predict >this particle, nor that quantum "half-spin" is not also a recognition >that this particle e- is never fully in our 3-space. > >Even if it is, isn't the "illusion of having fractional charge" a nice >way of telling the mainstream - "hey, you already blew it once, but >we're not going to rub it in just yet, if we get the big prize"? > >Is this food-for-thought... or merely time for a 'pepto' to prevent >indigestion? > >Howdy Jones, > >One must have a huge cup of Texas coffee to sip while digesting a >"Jones moment" and an extemely elastic mind to stretch around >thoughts provoked by such "moments". > >Or as Burl Ives quipped (in the movie " The Big Country") to Chuck >Conners... "perhaps there's a side to you I never saw before" > >Good wording,,."never fully in our 3-space". and excellent >wording.. "illusion of having a fractional charge". Knowing how >these thoughts issue forth from that fertile brain of yours is not >as important as the stimulation. As I sit in my rockin' chair on the >front porch of the Dime Box Saloon watching a water vortex >experiment.... and gaze at the water flowing " upward" as it is >flowing downward..while emptying the vessel I can better accept both wordings. > > The more we study on it, the less we understand..One of my > favorite science books.. the book of Job.. contains dialogue with > some fellows about the workings of nature and concludes with the > question by God.{ para-phrased by Richard} " if you are so smart. > tell me how I did it". > >Richard > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 10 13:52:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3AKqPjY025888; Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:52:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3AKqJ4m025851; Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:52:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:52:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=ewngrNm0OccchCl2JVY0WRO2ovvm9wVvElf3QQ7aCuSfrCaQuW4oJdin2GvsrSCxPuHm76lyybwqM7Q3y8JiXBGYoGjuws0R9g11V5T/T/RIhjGrATZm4h6+StGr5gO6qhMHGO2kV/krreHmVJteQQDH6KSh++JwfMHbUtwtcBI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=fpdaXN1B6vavSy55GPKCzonr0kGsKDgOkQ3JoSi5dOHaZ2EWrFR6d2LYMK2iyDfrIB/vbgxkVL4ynfDxwoziRbSQJYB3xic1fMGQJVI8OSYhzitfNV9daR0//SNu9D1ROJRiKkE42XNVvhyKJpWLFc/dL0nvDH6JYpL/WNg2vso= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:52:17 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74311 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Clueless Status: RO X-Status: W thinks we already have PHEVs obviously: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/09/bush-almost-blows-himself-up/ Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 11 08:39:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3BFdVU1001603; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:39:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3BFdSmG001568; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:39:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:39:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20070411153926.9ABB58B37C@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: <-NleWB.A.SY.vEQHGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74312 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]: 41% efficient solar cells Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > In December 2006, Boeing-Spectrolab announced a 40.7% efficient cell > that costs $3,000 per kW of capacity. That's remarkable. I did not > know these things were so advanced. See: > http://www.energy.gov/news/4503.htm Yes, but these are not just the flat panel type photovoltaics we are familiar with. They are little chips a couple of millimeters square, requiring concentration of up to 500 suns, and, of course, solar tracking. This is not an insurmountable problem, but it won't be just some flat panels slapped out in the desert. Naturally, I have tried to interest the people at Spectrolab in my ultra cheap fresnel lens arrays which would be perfect for this application. Frankly, I can't get arrested with this capability. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 11 10:23:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3BHNVfR029405; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:23:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3BHNSU8029377; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:23:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:23:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=IzZs4lxDOT0ZFQO322BPzJRbAmWI1rEviSYN1awoOSMlJwBmhZr3QmZ6iv2zMnILyaQzxKxZtcFZTjwJt6GrmRUhzdxAA5HU7X9ByI8WkyiAkR554fC5RovDPPdW4YhzsXDVXDDiwfxCZijwGmdOBhFOnt1XwRcY7RbQXhAPjqM= ; X-YMail-OSG: ng048QoVM1mYnkkNrYrhBbfU.6r.H4M0pu46fHs3l_M2jlyP1lu9fE4P2dCbHmCnHWO8Lh5Mww-- Message-ID: <461D1986.4090908@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:23:18 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex References: <20070411153926.9ABB58B37C@xprdmxin.myway.com> In-Reply-To: <20070411153926.9ABB58B37C@xprdmxin.myway.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74313 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Sili-Solar alternative ? Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster's mention of the high efficiency solar cell "requiring=20 concentration of up to 500 suns" raises an interesting point (in prior=20 energy-conversion speculation) which I have been intending to revise for = some time WRT solar input and employing the device known as the "reverse = gyrotron" (RG). Solar energy is remarkable for two things - it can be concentrated=20 cheaply; and it does not require "heat rejection" in the same sense as=20 combustion and the Carnot heat engine. Most of the high expense of=20 present day solar energy is to be found in the cost of exotic silicon,=20 gallium, etc chips - which can be mitigated with solar concentration -=20 up to an extent but there could be a much cheaper solution. Many here grew up with radio tubes, pre-simiconductor, and are familiar=20 with the "Edison effect" and "thermionic conversion". Thermionic=20 =91topping=92 devices have been around for at least forty years for=20 combustion - but they are not widely used now because the "materials"=20 limitations of high temperature combustion and low efficiency, requiring = extraordinary heat rejection. Therefore, it is easy to see why many=20 observers will initially balk at a solar application - they are assuming = that the supposed =91low efficiency=92 is the general-case when in fact i= t=20 is only a special case (combustion). There is also the issue of lack of general understanding and=20 appreciation of the "miracle" prior-art direct conversion device known=20 as the "reverse gyrotron" (RG) which is a device which can double the=20 best efficiency of silicon (80% vs 40%). This device was proposed by R. Mills for hydrino conversion, and=20 prototypes were built but it was never put into production. Hydrino=20 conversion involves UV light, but a similar RG device can work on wide=20 spectrum solar radiation. It is a 'natural' for use with=20 solar-thermionics. Like advanced solar cells, the RG has been=20 demonstrated in prototype form, and the high-efficiency which has been=20 documented is solid and achievable in practice - not speculation. In=20 terms of cost, over silicon, there is an enormous potential for cost=20 savings using focusing mirrors or fresnel film, or some combination to=20 get to the needed temperature range. In the combustion of fossil fuels, only a small percentage of the total=20 Btu=92s which are released are available for conversion at the =91high en= d=92=20 of the temperature spectrum i.e. over 2000 degrees F. where thermionic=20 converters become efficient. Therefore, one can never get more than a=20 small percentage of thermionic energy from combustion alone, even if the = device itself was 100% eff in that spectrum. In contrast, with solar as=20 the input, the =91high end=92 includes everything in the visible and UV=20 spectrum. The Edison effect is a =93boiling-off=94 electrons from this heat source.= =20 The electron itself becomes the secondary energy carrier. But the=20 problem is that the voltage potential of simple thermionics is only=20 around 1-2 volts, and this situation runs up against the so-called=20 "space-charge" effect. Electrons can carry off far more energy (per unit of cathode surface=20 area) than photon radiation, so that the overall system can be=20 engineered to be very compact and efficient using concentrated solar=20 input- if we can avoid the problems with convective heat transfer=20 (rejection) at the low end and low voltage. No convective heat rejection = at the low-end of the energy spectrum is only possible when the=20 collector cathode is in a near vacuum and the electron emission itself=20 is boosted in voltage potential. IR heat does leave the cathode as=20 blackbody radiation - and that is the inefficiency component. The lower efficiency numbers which you have seen in textbooks for=20 thermionic conversion (8-10%) are based on the assumption of combustion=20 as the heat source - where the necessity of wide spectrum heat ejection=20 always limits efficiency significantly. The situation with solar can be=20 engineered to be substantially different, especially if there is a=20 work-around for the low-voltage, high-current output of thermionics.=20 Some kind of series wiring of many devices is one solution, but there=20 are many drawbacks there. The present proposed work-around is to short the anode back to the=20 cathode immediately in every cell, so that 1-2 volts becomes and=20 incremental gradient instead of a self-limiting potential. Obviously if=20 you short your output then you must substitute something else - which is = to be, in this proposal - RF (cyclotron or gyrotron radio frequency=20 emission). This derives from putting the cathode and anode inside an axial magnetic = field so that the electron transit from cathode to anode and back again=20 is in a tight spiral, wherein cyclotron radiation is given off. This RF=20 can be collected externally - or used to accelerate a portion of=20 electrons to very high voltage (which is/was the Mills/BLP approach).=20 Too bad that most of that data has been removed from the BLP site. Complicated as this explanation seems, the overall system would be even=20 more complicated than what is offered here. Only the solar concentrator=20 is simple, but that is in effect, the enabling tech But this overall RG=20 concept, applied to solar, has been gradually evolving and still looks=20 promising. It has the great advantage of a cost structure that does not=20 depend on exotic materials. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 11 11:53:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3BIrcBg001226; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:53:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3BIranb001211; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:53:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:53:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070411145120.036a1d38@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:53:34 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_104929234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74314 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Mosier-Boss ACS presentation and PowerPoint slides Status: O X-Status: --=====================_104929234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mosier-Boss, P.A., et al. Pd/D Co-Deposition: Excess Power Generation and Its Origin (paper and PowerPoint slides). in 233rd ACS National Meeting. 2007. Chicago, IL. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBosspddcodepos.pdf I combined the presentation and PowerPoint slides in one file. Let me know if you have difficulty opening it. - Jed --=====================_104929234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mosier-Boss, P.A., et al. Pd/D Co-Deposition: Excess Power Generation and Its Origin (paper and PowerPoint slides). in 233rd ACS National Meeting. 2007. Chicago, IL.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBosspddcodepos.pdf

I combined the presentation and PowerPoint slides in one file. Let me know if you have difficulty opening it.

- Jed
--=====================_104929234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 11 15:40:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3BMe2Xw007091; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:40:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3BMXFJ6004251; Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:33:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:33:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:33:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070411153926.9ABB58B37C@xprdmxin.myway.com> In-Reply-To: <20070411153926.9ABB58B37C@xprdmxin.myway.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:33:12 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74315 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]: 41% efficient solar cells Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:39:26 -0400 = (EDT): Hi, [snip] > >Jed wrote: > >> In December 2006, Boeing-Spectrolab announced a 40.7% efficient cell=20 >> that costs $3,000 per kW of capacity. That's remarkable. I did not=20 >> know these things were so advanced. See: > >> http://www.energy.gov/news/4503.htm > >Yes, but these are not just the flat panel type photovoltaics >we are familiar with. They are little chips a couple of millimeters >square, requiring concentration of up to 500 suns, and, of course, >solar tracking. This is not an insurmountable problem, but it won't >be just some flat panels slapped out in the desert. > >Naturally, I have tried to interest the people at Spectrolab in my >ultra cheap fresnel lens arrays which would be perfect for this=20 >application. Frankly, I can't get arrested with this capability. [snip] As has previously been reported on this list, there is a solar power = plant being built here in Oz. They plan to use mirrors to concentrate the light = 400-500 times. I checked out the efficiency curve of the cells they use. It turns= out that at their peak they are 35% efficient, at 400-500 suns, however that = only drops off to 33% at about 80 suns. I suspect that if cylindrical Fresnel = lenses could achieve 80 suns, then the total plant cost (and consequently the = cost of power) could be considerably reduced. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 04:46:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3CBkbqG010420; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:46:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3CBkY90010399; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:46:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:46:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Charles M. Brown" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:45:11 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:diode array progress Status: O X-Status: A financial and business backer has been attracted to the diode array project. He held conference calls with me and first the director and second a design and processing specialist of the MEMS-Nanotechnology Exchange where diode array development was discussed. I then sent the diode array die made by VDI to the specialist. The die with ~10,000 Au anode spots on GaAs, an upgrade of the die tested in 1993, has been waiting on my shelf since 2005 Nov . Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 06:49:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3CDmtVt021241; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 06:48:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3CDmorK021205; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 06:48:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 06:48:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=UQ8UTY5CfXkFoYMPdvodza/CYvRpY4lN3JcxDgQDmN7AD88wrisQuRZnpgr4SsEHshylrhqr2cYx2Svw5W4Uk/QcEVDPk2EJwmoo+cRvDY/15ZDLSqWw66qFcBUulICH2UyvKW+Se9QkQ177p9sFpiK0h99P1Y03Pq/nK2EGlzs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=kfjVGlQmSHrATtXQIesn0iPpzABGFQeRDT4oV6O0BdwtexvTiJWsO5TGWbsZpUIKSQOL9khDJ4us1KzrtMYFm7znwZQfLvJ73OenrYQDwOZL6o0YaQQyz5NbkTRRC5Ze/lUxips7vrBk19it9OLgc7zGMxyVbyMw2w6LyfaXnTE= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:48:46 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Cat's Cradle Author Dies Status: RO X-Status: Kurt was one of my favorite authors. He was 84. We should all have a martini for breakfast in his honor. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 07:18:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3CEIHEU024710; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:18:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3CEIFOZ024683; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:18:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:18:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=u3T1c3aFFDmhc10wRXQJxtKBEK1OT2gBrjkAfXP7YC3J2xqejiAReyet5V/rGE1JUHI4u/ha6sAv7HEFBaYJf94c0ufO/NZBrDekBu5qFLuPTGyObkIR6r6+dBbWyKMiexZBdt3lOlX6vKEPrtoq5R3ROvwht6YttRY6h7PsOUI= ; X-YMail-OSG: 6HL6saEVM1lvOr.tR045I8Ao55odlfmVgvVYpUwadz_CLdjK Message-ID: <461E3F9D.9030902@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:18:05 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74318 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Cat's Cradle Author Dies Status: O X-Status: ...hold the ice Terry Blanton wrote: > Kurt was one of my favorite authors. He was 84. We should all have a > martini for breakfast in his honor. > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 11:52:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3CIq2DX004863; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:52:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3CIpxv9004837; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:51:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:51:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:51:55 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: <3Ri0eB.A.dLB.P_nHGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74319 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Maveric gravimagnetic forces at play Status: O X-Status: The wild and woolly nonlinear 1/r^4 force gyrations of interacting magnets can be seen in the distortions of the polar jets of these two colliding black holes: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/146397main_a400.jpg They must both have fairly high internal angular momenta. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 12:41:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3CJfAt1031196; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:41:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3CJf9fb031159; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:41:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:41:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:41:06 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74320 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: Maveric gravimagnetic forces at play Status: O X-Status: More of the same: http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2006/a400/index.html And some less dramatic stuff: http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2002/0192/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 22:15:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D5FYqv023561; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:15:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D5FQQw023522; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:15:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:15:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAHSuHkbLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj28BASo X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,405,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="133615594:sNHT9888108" Message-ID: <461F11FA.6010203@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:15:38 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74321 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Clueless Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > W thinks we already have PHEVs obviously: > > http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/09/bush-almost-blows-himself-up/ > > Terry > Right, pull the other #$%^# leg. Another attempt by Ford to sabotage hybrids. Why is the CEO Alan Malally/ /so stupid? Surely the hydrogen fill cap is locked! Why would the hydrogen fill system have any live conductors in it? Bush is not that stupid. If the hydrogen cap could be lifted it would ( or should) clearly not match the plug. Mulally is only showing his bias against and ignorance of both Hybrids and George W Bush. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 22:38:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D5c36L030063; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:38:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D5c2xR030050; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:38:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:38:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAANizHkbLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj28BASo X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,405,1170601200"; d="scan'208"; a="50273968:sNHT7524384" Message-ID: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:38:13 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_rbcD.A.UVH.5cxHGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74322 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > . . . moved to July: > > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1 > > and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!? > > Terry > Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a later post. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 23:40:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D6ehHF023394; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:40:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D6ebHT023347; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:40:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:40:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 01:40:13 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74323 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > >> . . . moved to July: >> >> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1 >> >> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!? >> >> Terry >> > Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a > later post. > Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 23:51:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D6pc6w029344; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:51:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D6pZDc029320; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:51:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:51:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OZuQGU1PqHtIew9PNZzIjTRepghOIS3Ylf9lH7u4fRX8gO7DlYjvWB/g9ou68AVAJDCN+W8AppKY2euLCY2lVWdAPh87TuG8R5HDg4EJ8/qIe81u8Z8qqa05BlE71kHYh2rJwqU2gw6twbsJ+kFZpeyN0hT8kNO5uGEg7s3ICoU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=aNgQ6UUERcXnxtMIfaVB8uzMBiI4upKvX988wZ4SMTLcMXMksDkpR3iBdYdlj6ws6jZaSsPmwv/zLrOyZbqkIWo7RVru7Mrj7KuH/y0E2IEq4KOSpDQBQPfG6wTQrbr83SIWsvQttVRqB6hd3ghScOxOfMlPnGhqDkfRlm47BVo= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704122351s573b27acuf2bbef8dd59a819e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:51:33 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1138_28145691.1176447093493" References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74324 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_1138_28145691.1176447093493 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.steorn.com/forum when talking about friday 13th april 2007 news: says: Hi Folks, Its been a while - just to let you know that we will be releasing the update on the Jury process and so on on Friday April 13th. Thanks, Sean On 13/04/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > Wesley Bruce wrote: > > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > >> . . . moved to July: > >> > >> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1 > >> > >> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!? > >> > >> Terry > >> > > Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a > > later post. > > > Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine? > > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > ------=_Part_1138_28145691.1176447093493 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.steorn.com/forum
when talking about friday 13th april 2007 news: says:
Hi Folks,

Its been a while - just to let you know that we will be releasing the update on the Jury process and so on on Friday April 13th.

Thanks,

Sean



On 13/04/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Wesley Bruce wrote:

> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>> . . . moved to July:
>>
>> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1
>>
>> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
>>
>> Terry
>>
> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a
> later post.
>
Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine?



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


------=_Part_1138_28145691.1176447093493-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 12 23:58:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D6wDd4031160; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:58:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D6wC5x031146; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:58:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 23:58:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAEzHHkbLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj28BAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,405,1170601200"; d="scan'208"; a="60310448:sNHT842917284" Message-ID: <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:57:55 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74325 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >> Terry Blanton wrote: >> >>> . . . moved to July: >>> >>> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1 >>> >>> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!? >>> >>> Terry >>> >> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a >> later post. >> > Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine? > > No that means you'll see the Jury report and blue prints by tonight or tomorrow. Those with the skill and magnets, that includes my brother and I, will be able to build and test it. If the Jury report is both positive and respectable then the investment and development phase starts. Expect some interesting video, PDF files and lots of emails going out to the thousands who have signed up for the report. They have installed a lot of server capacity to handle the load. Steorn has spent about 3 million to date on this project. Its a sign that they at least believe completely in the technology. If its a scam they are making a huge loss. It will take about three months to make a toy for demonstration and fun. Home built powerplants will be 6 to 12 months away. Factory production may take 18 months. The scramble for Neodymium will begin Monday as the news soaks in across the web over the weekend. > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 00:07:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D7796m007891; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:07:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D777KU007870; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:07:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:07:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=XmVnAdRxFI2WPZ7DCTrSU5EcjokJNTEMebrZ67Ir25D2PI70AMjs1lA3yvHIOfAqwZKZRZ3gKJ0Pod/l7PDq9/zHILigtw0v+HLCSqU5tL/0yB4KF4RHOL2udtZCNXPH+uJkYVFBDMs0S4lIdr47ht5FOdj4Fps53hvteRmyO4s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bNY8mFywVAQKeMTKLstDMkSTes/mbw/rwVjg9QkFvgFnbU2BGlVebgb7lXuBAU28TOWpWGnHgT+41nCwH+Sc/7KD9F/VNRWaOiFsjBG7EaZX9VqiuuXE/LCWOgV6xi3/ZJm5iY56fhppuE/SjrdypiJoXlNqZFCUkLaKs58BC7E= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:07:06 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1274_4183716.1176448026609" References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74326 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_1274_4183716.1176448026609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline erm.. wesley.. how do you know this? where is the steorn forum post about this? i thought it was just going to be an update on the jury process, not a "final report of all juries". if it is, then grand, but somehow i doubt you really mean what you said. besides, with the "3 month toy", what about the SPDC? what are they doing - according to you? somehow seems quite hard to believe that all the SPDC members (over 250) would have finished their steorn replication already. if you are skilled with building, why didnt you apply to the SPDC and sign the NDA and get onto the SPDC forum and follow the lessons? On 13/04/07, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > >>> . . . moved to July: > >>> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1 > >>> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!? > >> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a > later post. > > Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine? > No that means you'll see the Jury report and blue prints by tonight or > tomorrow. Those with the skill and magnets, that includes my brother and I, > will be able to build and test it. If the Jury report is both positive and > respectable then the investment and development phase starts. Expect some > interesting video, PDF files and lots of emails going out to the thousands > who have signed up for the report. They have installed a lot of server > capacity to handle the load. Steorn has spent about 3 million to date on > this project. Its a sign that they at least believe completely in the > technology. If its a scam they are making a huge loss. It will take about > three months to make a toy for demonstration and fun. Home built powerplants > will be 6 to 12 months away. Factory production may take 18 months. The > scramble for Neodymium will begin Monday as the news soaks in across the web > over the weekend. > ------=_Part_1274_4183716.1176448026609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline erm.. wesley.. how do you know this?
where is the steorn forum post abou= t this?
i thought it was just going to be an update on the jury process,= not a "final report of all juries". if it is, then grand, but so= mehow i doubt you really mean what you said.
besides, with the "3 month toy", what about the SPDC? what ar= e they doing - according to you? somehow seems quite hard to believe that a= ll the SPDC members (over 250) would have finished their steorn replication= already.
if you are skilled with building, why didnt you apply to the SPDC and s= ign the NDA and get onto the SPDC forum and follow the lessons?

On 13/04/07, Wes= ley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.= au> wrote:
>>> . . . moved to July:
>>> http://www.st= eorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3D50211&page=3D1
>&g= t;> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
>> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sea= n in a later post.
> Does that mean that I'm going to be able to = purchase a machine?
No that means you'll see the Jury report and blu= e prints by tonight or tomorrow. Those with the skill and magnets, that inc= ludes my brother and I, will be able to build and test it. If the Jury repo= rt is both positive and respectable then the investment and development pha= se starts. Expect some interesting video, PDF files and lots of emails goin= g out to the thousands who have signed up for the report. They have install= ed a lot of server capacity to handle the load. Steorn has spent about 3 mi= llion to date on this project. Its a sign that they at least believe comple= tely in the technology. If its a scam they are making a huge loss. It will = take about three months to make a toy for demonstration and fun. Home built= powerplants will be 6 to 12 months away. Factory production may take 18 mo= nths.  The scramble for Neodymium will begin Monday as the news s= oaks in across the web over the weekend.
------=_Part_1274_4183716.1176448026609-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 00:39:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D7csj4012496; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:38:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D7crET012483; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:38:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:38:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAPjPHkbLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj28BAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,405,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="122571195:sNHT17495496" Message-ID: <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:39:04 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-yyHvB.A.7CD.NOzHGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74327 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: Esa Ruoho wrote: > erm.. wesley.. how do you know this? > where is the steorn forum post about this? > i thought it was just going to be an update on the jury process, not a > "final report of all juries". if it is, then grand, but somehow i > doubt you really mean what you said. I've been quietly monetoring the posts on the forum. That was my reading of Seans post and a few comments by people that I have gurssed are staff. I may be wrong but the 1st quarter ends in Ireland on sunday and they're promissing an annoncement before them. Friday is the last working day before the end of the quarter. It should not take that long to build and test the device. > besides, with the "3 month toy", what about the SPDC? what are they > doing - according to you? somehow seems quite hard to believe that all > the SPDC members (over 250) would have finished their steorn > replication already. True but that's not part of the main Jury process. It is an additional verification not tied to the first quarter date. > if you are skilled with building, why didnt you apply to the SPDC and > sign the NDA and get onto the SPDC forum and follow the lessons? I thought I had missed the cut some how for that process. I'm a geographer and sustainable development specialist not a mechanic, my brother was not available until last month. My application attempt bounced and I've got no NDA. It would have been nice. Steorn does have my Resume I believe. ;-) PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up? > > On 13/04/07, *Wesley Bruce * > wrote: > > >>> . . . moved to July: > >>> > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1 > > >>> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!? > >> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean > in a later post. > > Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine? > No that means you'll see the Jury report and blue prints by > tonight or tomorrow. Those with the skill and magnets, that > includes my brother and I, will be able to build and test it. If > the Jury report is both positive and respectable then the > investment and development phase starts. Expect some interesting > video, PDF files and lots of emails going out to the thousands who > have signed up for the report. They have installed a lot of server > capacity to handle the load. Steorn has spent about 3 million to > date on this project. Its a sign that they at least believe > completely in the technology. If its a scam they are making a huge > loss. It will take about three months to make a toy for > demonstration and fun. Home built powerplants will be 6 to 12 > months away. Factory production may take 18 months. The scramble > for Neodymium will begin Monday as the news soaks in across the > web over the weekend. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 01:55:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D8tbLx004532; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 01:55:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D8taub004516; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 01:55:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 01:55:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=T/odfGFTtGf35trbRKfHHPIrRApj7z2o5z0IVoVuDcS5DRoFh/xQSVlBXioht29qWxvdwX3kbsQONFychCLUu7MTje0wlu/Ejb6S5xaNU+yIUskmvDW0hVm3qjS7gAt8/oh0UZc2qQgkMkZTMZf9h8ixXgVyCLq491rwexmAnLg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=t0iWhoPrdbg+oKECxlNiknjR0s0BgUQ6VAQ/wQPSJur3JNNONfofy4CQcPVxc3dZ6yfpRTfzR4D5/LssZ0gEj+Tz7pxGmcKHLwuRlXMGCYYTajmzujQz3GmPYHKCtFrfYAFLgZEIMuqCfiaPWfNMhnVquDDWKQ5fRoZbAD8jPFY= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:55:35 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1985_19614450.1176454535246" References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74328 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_1985_19614450.1176454535246 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up? Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed) ------=_Part_1985_19614450.1176454535246 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:

PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?

Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)

------=_Part_1985_19614450.1176454535246-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 02:22:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D9Mdrd004682; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:22:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D9Masi004653; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:22:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:22:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAABzoHkbLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj28BAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,406,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="122622052:sNHT8335164" Message-ID: <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:22:45 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74329 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: RO X-Status: John Berry wrote: > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* > wrote: > > > PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up? > > > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed) > Yep. Thats what I thought. What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm watching the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I'm a little early. An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. Anything major should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee, briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't be accused of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the accusation they face. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 02:35:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D9YwFk016847; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:34:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D9Yw0B016838; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:34:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:34:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bqXF3rQaVbpyrhmrJeHbOr9c8BZhbP5vtsO+Mim9ztjoFs7nfQT4HZbIkyZMoPHlz0jCJWON1YxAwXVPoXL7Ut6juVs09yyDjzfG3NR/IFxUKTrRHGyXgaCAvk4cF0ZHj6nkiCK7Y7Ikb7UGwd+OlPr/cJXSR3/Df4bZ5NrMH+Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qneoQNGISxFyBL7YIdAPdrLGdYi1Oc5vL9WiSxCZ0qIxHMu0t2wV3z5tYSpDTV8fEiWw/fPRymSPdy7iVMvHes9tzE0m4urayQo0cqGhhnqwK7mtZm6/f40UxZSZI7tfVTg77OYe+nvKmix0vjAZsaR7Zkzlz6ASA3h3Ch/AAdU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:34:53 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2310_6775885.1176456893946" References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74330 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_2310_6775885.1176456893946 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time? HM Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months. Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum! Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much all been said in here. Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release the detailed technical specifications to the public as you promised or not? Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs alongside the video update? Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT (the video update will go up around lunchtime). Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer! You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my question? On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* > > wrote: > > > > > > PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up? > > > > > > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed) > > > Yep. Thats what I thought. > What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm watching > the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I'm a > little early. > An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. Anything major > should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee, > briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz > depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match > happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't be accused > of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the accusation > they face. > > ------=_Part_2310_6775885.1176456893946 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time?

HM


Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months. Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum! Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much all been said in here.


Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release the detailed technical specifications to the public as you promised or not?
Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs alongside the video update?


Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT (the video update will go up around lunchtime).

Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my question?


On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

> On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>
>
>     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
>
>
> Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)
>
Yep. Thats what I thought.
What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm watching
the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I'm a
little early.
An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. Anything major
should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee,
briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz
depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match
happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't be accused
of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the accusation
they face.


------=_Part_2310_6775885.1176456893946-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 02:39:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3D9dgpn018523; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:39:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3D9dehw018498; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:39:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 02:39:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ALUtTXXtvoFkqnRdFmIyIq1WiDF7ZYLA7HW7QBaSHaTfCLo/zBVFcVMAmFO+aaeTmawzEC7Hhvw4tBx2UrpoDghDBC/f2yLTqkmZXXIJsNRcADOrRe/HsSHrIMun4hCGjv4s1+vzqeLtU/VZxoqsSqgSkbIJLsV/rqUYeWx7gig= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=k8S6ipITtYkG8OrlDvI4hpY+6HBorZlHMiVTd+1LLhzNjzeTvRBHKS2ky+9Eilu0TPcz/VB/x1FZKQPmtrsXGkp6c9JlPfuop7LTnxWO8Ri87VJ8mjFYfvYMu0zYmRq4T7Ic4yEgRjaLZ7gfUo9hUbxliWQ6wk7fg19qSKRZKq0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:39:38 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2330_30596674.1176457178952" References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74331 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_2330_30596674.1176457178952 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering. By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more. (i think) Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7 On 4/13/07, John Berry wrote: > > HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I can't see any > update yet. Anyone know where the update will appear on website (I've looked > under 'News') or at what time? > > HM > > > > Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, text > update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' news here at > all, as I stated many times over the last few months. Its a quick update on > what has happen since last August, primarily designed for those who do not > spend hours everyday on this forum! Regular forum members will see little > that is new, its pretty much all been said in here. > > > Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release the > detailed technical specifications to the public as you promised or not? > > Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs alongside > the video update? > > > > Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT (the video > update will go up around lunchtime). > > Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer! > You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't already > knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release detailed technical > specs, and that's definitely new information (and BIG news) for everybody. > Did you change your mind after my question? > > > On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up? > > > > > > > > > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed) > > > > > Yep. Thats what I thought. > > What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm watching > > the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I'm a > > little early. > > An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. Anything major > > should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee, > > briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz > > depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match > > happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't be accused > > of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the accusation > > they face. > > > > > ------=_Part_2330_30596674.1176457178952 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.

By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more. (i think)


Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7

On 4/13/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com > wrote:
HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time?

HM


Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months. Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum! Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much all been said in here.


Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release the detailed technical specifications to the public as you promised or not?
Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs alongside the video update?


Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT (the video update will go up around lunchtime).

Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my question?


On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
John Berry wrote:

> On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>
>
>     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
>
>
> Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)
>
Yep. Thats what I thought.
What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm watching
the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I'm a
little early.
An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. Anything major
should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee,
briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz
depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match
happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't be accused
of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the accusation
they face.



------=_Part_2330_30596674.1176457178952-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 03:01:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DA1faq027605; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:01:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DA1dVx027591; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:01:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:01:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAADDyHkbLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj28BAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,406,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="133751565:sNHT7935714" Message-ID: <461F550D.5050904@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:01:49 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <461F1745.7060003@iinet.net.au> <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74332 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August is still quite a long testing schedule. John Berry wrote: > rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering. > > By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many > occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more. > (i think) > > > > Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread: > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7 > > > On 4/13/07, *John Berry* > wrote: > > HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I > can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will > appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time? > > HM > > > > Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, > text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' > news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months. > Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily > designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum! > Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much > all been said in here. > > > Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release > the detailed technical specifications to the public as you > promised or not? > > Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs > alongside the video update? > > > > Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT > (the video update will go up around lunchtime). > > Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer! > You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't > already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release > detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information > (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my > question? > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up? > > > > > > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. > (or fixed) > > > Yep. Thats what I thought. > What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm > watching > the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin > so I'm a > little early. > An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. > Anything major > should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning > coffee, > briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame > or fizz > depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the > shouting match > happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't > be accused > of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the > accusation > they face. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 05:02:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DC2Cie004646; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:02:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DC2Bcw004634; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:02:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:02:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=T3sqzAB7KJwqWBHa8bRaRnrt/eVoWaLQEVyUc0Xu+2hJgfpaZrkrYsSnMG1HEATT6Fh1avl9p5Cn6O+bYUMUztsNOizZLRuIiBN0PvX6A6oUlfB+3y/A1OStZYRmxWz7A3gRz9SIqKgYb5mZtFPAIAkrBUvBcxKqUWg5BOd1PnY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=hZZgtWVM2rqWR8y4DMTsZuF8FpoNOeVynCzVq4qnXSSSeT65385S3clfGWtBdVifl6QmA/2xjEVFlF/bo8xRDQBj4L7p24BRPi1M62/IQ5djdU+j5ReADWyBdOCHOnAg0w+8Oa2h1WNKOviUpQXqOLc2v+Kul3VJ+6yEmzHrzIM= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:02:09 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <461F550D.5050904@iinet.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3313_8883914.1176465729604" References: <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> <461F550D.5050904@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74333 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_3313_8883914.1176465729604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn. I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim, I have not the slightest doubt. However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight answer to 'Does it run closed loop' I'd ask on the forum but I can't post yet. So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or failing that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to: Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond an initial impulse to get it started and done useful work continuously? (or run under any other fair closed loop (no input) type conditions) If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to that is 'No' a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly convince me. On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that > data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are > expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know > what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August > is still quite a long testing schedule. > > John Berry wrote: > > > rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering. > > > > By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many > > occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more. > > (i think) > > > > > > > > Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread: > > > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7 > > < > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7> > > > > On 4/13/07, *John Berry* > > wrote: > > > > HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I > > can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will > > appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time? > > > > HM > > > > > > > > Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, > > text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' > > news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months. > > Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily > > designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum! > > Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much > > all been said in here. > > > > > > Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release > > the detailed technical specifications to the public as you > > promised or not? > > > > Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs > > alongside the video update? > > > > > > > > Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT > > (the video update will go up around lunchtime). > > > > Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer! > > You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't > > already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release > > detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information > > (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my > > question? > > > > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > > wrote: > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up? > > > > > > > > > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. > > (or fixed) > > > > > Yep. Thats what I thought. > > What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm > > watching > > the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin > > so I'm a > > little early. > > An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. > > Anything major > > should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning > > coffee, > > briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame > > or fizz > > depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the > > shouting match > > happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't > > be accused > > of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the > > accusation > > they face. > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_3313_8883914.1176465729604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn.

I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim, I have not the slightest doubt.
However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight answer to 'Does it run closed loop'

I'd ask on the forum but I can't post yet.

So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or failing that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to:

Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond an initial impulse to get it started and done useful work continuously? (or run under any other fair closed loop (no input) type conditions)


If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to that is 'No' a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly convince me.


On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that
data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are
expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know
what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August
is still quite a long testing schedule.

John Berry wrote:

>     rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.
>
>     By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many
>     occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more.
>     (i think)
>
>
>
> Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread:
> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7
> <http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7 >
>
> On 4/13/07, *John Berry* <aether22@gmail.com
> <mailto:aether22@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I
>         can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will
>         appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time?
>
>         HM
>
>
>
>     Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video,
>     text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big'
>     news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months.
>     Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily
>     designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum!
>     Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much
>     all been said in here.
>
>
>     Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release
>     the detailed technical specifications to the public as you
>     promised or not?
>
>         Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs
>         alongside the video update?
>
>
>
>     Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT
>     (the video update will go up around lunchtime).
>
>     Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
>     You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't
>     already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release
>     detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information
>     (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my
>     question?
>
>
>     On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>
>         John Berry wrote:
>
>         > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au >
>         > <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>>> wrote:
>         >
>         >
>         >     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
>         >
>         >
>         > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed.
>         (or fixed)
>         >
>         Yep. Thats what I thought.
>         What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm
>         watching
>         the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin
>         so I'm a
>         little early.
>         An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all.
>         Anything major
>         should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning
>         coffee,
>         briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame
>         or fizz
>         depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the
>         shouting match
>         happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't
>         be accused
>         of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the
>         accusation
>         they face.
>
>
>


------=_Part_3313_8883914.1176465729604-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 05:06:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DC6666018828; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:06:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DC64UI018801; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:06:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:06:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=O27/OOoUVi4rz+VvqGdpebgURVRiDlTmbhCuy+RUGFuub5TfAHt5Bth1UVAXCQpAnlKr8CQ1QdZCSeE2WsjV7U/32wutJougs/pBPAy8yuMbttvdRxzyahjChj3cpdDqxg/qkDB8BvoE0T2o+bAGXjP2o2TeT6PXCkdVVA3IAV4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=oW57r7vjDw4PPlwzD49T3MTd9+Lip6DTnk/Or58ry+hyBpN1m+a7wR7PGF+mL6IP1pFfCGGE6pVuVtUshJo2rCVXHceOtR7MMtwtRzmDuABIBR43X82swufS7znjVvV6/jkuNiWsOrCF/sjzQOz/43JjAJq4afggj1jcfThIIx4= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704130506w500fce34n1e370163e1e550f1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:06:00 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4810_7829396.1176465960490" References: <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> <461F550D.5050904@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74334 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4810_7829396.1176465960490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aaRrEIp-0 videoupdate is here theres supposed to be text incoming at around 6pm gmt. ------=_Part_4810_7829396.1176465960490 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aaRrEIp-0
videoupdate is here
theres supposed to be text incoming at around 6pm gmt.

------=_Part_4810_7829396.1176465960490-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 05:18:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DCILap028422; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:18:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DCIJGF028359; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:18:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:18:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=rcLYrz60Uiqw5XUwrSQefxizNkoWNrANDlF9OUs2pnE50b2mCUm5R7yYGU65noU0SO/j7vVHhP/20hdHgCvLlP5IbSm4crdLzF2eY8WQJZv79nmdbcoLSbh29nmuryIhbLf9cWjBEQOalf2UF6mou9OJHXG+G914lMBrP3VAUWw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Lv36fsD1C2tk62dl04ZZkLfkt5k60yYieRA9kU8sHV6o/lQ83GvXFffxGZpU6U3zoDG0sA+aDUpu2md3U0PdA9Vo05pTyAtHBWuvEbdLNY+bi/g2HpVlJ9jSR16ogtG5dQuKXGuhICuws9pj1EG2GORXsGfMbVDAxZ+DoCxFrS0= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:18:16 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3551_29136241.1176466696943" References: <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> <461F550D.5050904@iinet.net.au> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74335 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_3551_29136241.1176466696943 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/14/07, John Berry wrote: > > Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn. > > I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim By that I mean energy seemingly created in a simple device including permanent magnetic motors. I think energy can be created but don't really care if energy is created or taken from some unseen infinite storehouse of energy, at that point it's an issue of faith in c of e or in abundance and creation. In my opinion energy can be created by using the aether in specific ways to unbalance energy equations, this is permissible because the aether is not energy but the medium in which all energy rides and energy follows the aether's 'rules' and by manipulating the aether you can change these rules - aether is the 'board' on which the game of energy is played - I can also explain how manipulating the aether in various ways leads to energy generation.. To expand on that there is no other word for thesaurus in a thesaurus, and phonetic is not spelt phonetically. If there are gravitons the only thing that by necessity couldn't react to them would be gravitons. , I have not the slightest doubt. > However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight answer > to 'Does it run closed loop' > > I'd ask on the forum but I can't post yet. > > So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or failing > that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to: > > Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond an > initial impulse to get it started and done useful work continuously? (or run > under any other fair closed loop (no input) type conditions) > > > If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to > that is 'No' a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly > convince me. > > > On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce wrote: > > > > Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that > > data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are > > expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know > > what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August > > is still quite a long testing schedule. > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > > rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering. > > > > > > By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many > > > occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more. > > > (i think) > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread: > > > > > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7 > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/13/07, *John Berry* > > > wrote: > > > > > > HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I > > > can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will > > > appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time? > > > > > > HM > > > > > > > > > > > > Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, > > > text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' > > > news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months. > > > > > Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily > > > designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum! > > > Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much > > > > > all been said in here. > > > > > > > > > Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release > > > the detailed technical specifications to the public as you > > > promised or not? > > > > > > Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs > > > alongside the video update? > > > > > > > > > > > > Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT > > > (the video update will go up around lunchtime). > > > > > > Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer! > > > You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't > > > already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release > > > detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information > > > (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my > > > question? > > > > > > > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > > > wrote: > > > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking > > up? > > > > > > > > > > > > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. > > > (or fixed) > > > > > > > Yep. Thats what I thought. > > > What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm > > > watching > > > the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin > > > > > so I'm a > > > little early. > > > An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. > > > Anything major > > > should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning > > > coffee, > > > briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame > > > or fizz > > > depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the > > > shouting match > > > happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't > > > be accused > > > of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the > > > accusation > > > they face. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_3551_29136241.1176466696943 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/14/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn.

I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim

By that I mean energy seemingly created in a simple device including permanent magnetic motors.
I think energy can be created but don't really care if energy is created or taken from some unseen infinite storehouse of energy, at that point it's an issue of faith in c of e or in abundance and creation.

In my opinion energy can be created by using the aether in specific ways to unbalance energy equations, this is permissible because the aether is not energy but the medium in which all energy rides and energy follows the aether's 'rules' and by manipulating the aether you can change these rules - aether is the 'board' on which the game of energy is played - I can also explain how manipulating the aether in various ways leads to energy generation..

To expand on that there is no other word for thesaurus in a thesaurus, and phonetic is not spelt phonetically.
If there are gravitons the only thing that by necessity couldn't react to them would be gravitons.


, I have not the slightest doubt.
However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight answer to 'Does it run closed loop'

I'd ask on the forum but I can't post yet.

So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or failing that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to:

Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond an initial impulse to get it started and done useful work continuously? (or run under any other fair closed loop (no input) type conditions)


If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to that is 'No' a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly convince me.


On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that
data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are
expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know
what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August
is still quite a long testing schedule.

John Berry wrote:

>     rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.
>
>     By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many
>     occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more.
>     (i think)
>
>
>
> Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread:
> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7
> < http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7 >
>
> On 4/13/07, *John Berry* <aether22@gmail.com
> <mailto:aether22@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I
>         can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will
>         appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time?
>
>         HM
>
>
>
>     Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video,
>     text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big'
>     news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months.
>     Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily
>     designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum!
>     Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much
>     all been said in here.
>
>
>     Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release
>     the detailed technical specifications to the public as you
>     promised or not?
>
>         Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs
>         alongside the video update?
>
>
>
>     Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT
>     (the video update will go up around lunchtime).
>
>     Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
>     You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't
>     already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release
>     detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information
>     (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my
>     question?
>
>
>     On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto: wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>
>         John Berry wrote:
>
>         > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>         <mailto: wesleybruce@iinet.net.au >
>         > <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>         <mailto: wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>>> wrote:
>         >
>         >
>         >     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
>         >
>         >
>         > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed.
>         (or fixed)
>         >
>         Yep. Thats what I thought.
>         What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm
>         watching
>         the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin
>         so I'm a
>         little early.
>         An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all.
>         Anything major
>         should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning
>         coffee,
>         briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame
>         or fizz
>         depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the
>         shouting match
>         happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't
>         be accused
>         of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the
>         accusation
>         they face.
>
>
>



------=_Part_3551_29136241.1176466696943-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 08:21:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DFKrQC014633; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:20:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DFKkgD014590; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:20:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:20:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413111430.0364a6d0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:20:44 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <461F11FA.6010203@iinet.net.au> References: <461F11FA.6010203@iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74336 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Clueless Status: RO X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: >>W thinks we already have PHEVs obviously: >> >>http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/09/bush-almost-blows-himself-up/ >> >>Terry >Right, pull the other #$%^# leg. Another attempt by Ford to sabotage hybrids. This was a joke, circulated by Ford Motor Co. President and CEO Alan Mulally. It was never intended to be taken seriously, but in the Internet age these things sometimes get out of hand. See: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070411/AUTO01/704110406/1013/BIZ04 "Mulally's Bush tale ignites blog mania WASHINGTON -- In the age of YouTube, the Drudge Report and the blogosphere, even a story told for laughs can spin out of control. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 10:51:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DHpcG2012953; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:51:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DHpac0012932; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:51:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:51:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74337 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My fault. I think I got it this time. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 11:02:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DI21w0012980; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:02:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DI1xkj012955; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:01:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:01:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413140135.0376d940@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:02:00 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!! In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74338 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Apparently not. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 11:05:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DI4s5S015161; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:04:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DI4rNS015145; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:04:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:04:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SDuUJiV13CR/Ua7xpX26TbRjuGmluYHOeF33R7IOqte2AWYq8gdIw5NVePjG+9Ray0F2y0aeFHXQYzQ6eieq11GDuu2P8Cot57mr7Yr8vCBVa5iH2Ymueon3fzlmTFeyMDsu+lA56uaV2cwoJCu7BdJ6SQ4TW/Ip4O9+E31KFfY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fnxycjYbGtyDTjjWL3iH5ACx8lfaLONvW3tjcO3YPEZGO3dFlpBEB/hFPXcObdhvBy0jlk+IuS5jcWXV3S0nJVZqUFXLtK1RlFBGBZJutUTdLZni58puEyXzuX7vHwz9KCpG6i6QcyxAyzfmefn40tEltTyLdSzpgxwOpC0Y+pg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:04:52 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74339 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: this is actually the first vo post ive gotten in months that DIDNT have the tag. On 4/13/07, William Beaty wrote: > > My fault. I think I got it this time. > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 12:10:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DJAa61013772; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:10:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DJAYgY013758; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:10:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:10:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413145122.0378eba0@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413141142.037c95f0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:10:35 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_14423765==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74340 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Garbage from George Will Status: O X-Status: --=====================_14423765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In my experience trying to talk to people about cold fusion and energy I have discovered that many journalists, politicians and other leading members of society are innumerate and scientifically illiterate. This should come as no surprise to the readers here, but sometimes extent of this general ignorance is jarring. Attached is an article by George Will from the Washington Post about global warming that includes an outrageous comparison between the Prius and a Hummer. It is appalling that a major newspaper columnist such as Will gets away with publishing outlandish mistakes, numbers pulled out of a hat, and crazy notions such as the idea that a typical Prius owner will throw away the car before it wears out. As we saw in January 2006 with the Kevles article, the Washington Post demands no rigor or accountability. Columnists write any damn thing that pops into their minds, and no follow-up correction or justification is published. My mother often said that people are no more ignorant now than they used to be. Back in 1920 many important people and newspaper editors had no clue what electricity is, or that the earth orbits the sun. She said there were plenty of people in New York City who did not know where Europe is, or for that matter where the Statue of Liberty is. That is probably true, but it did not matter as much back then. The stakes were lower. Technology was not as powerful and there were fewer people. We were not on the verge of inducing global warming. We did not have thousands of thermonuclear weapons. Nowadays, ignorance causes more harm. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Washington Post Fuzzy Climate Math By George F. Will Thursday, April 12, 2007; A27 In a campaign without peacetime precedent, the media-entertainment-environmental complex is warning about global warming. Never, other than during the two world wars, has there been such a concerted effort by opinion-forming institutions to indoctrinate Americans, 83 percent of whom now call global warming a " serious problem." Indoctrination is supposed to be a predicate for action commensurate with professions of seriousness. For example, Democrats could demand that the president send the Kyoto Protocol to the Senate so they can embrace it. In 1997, the Senate voted95 to 0 in opposition to any agreement that would, like the protocol, require significant reduction of greenhouse gas emissions in America and some other developed nations but that would involve no "specific scheduled commitments" for 129 "developing" countries, including the second-, fourth-, 10th-, 11th-, 13th- and 15th-largest economies (China, India, Brazil, South Korea, Mexico and Indonesia). Forty-two of the senators serving in 1997 are gone. Let's find out if the new senators disagree with the 1997 vote. Do they also disagree with Bjorn Lomborg, author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist"? He says: Compliance with Kyoto would reduce global warming by an amount too small to measure. But the cost of compliance just to the United States would be higher than the cost of providing the entire world with clean drinking water and sanitation, which would prevent 2 million deaths (from diseases such as infant diarrhea) a year and prevent half a billion people from becoming seriously ill each year. Nature designed us as carnivores, but what does nature know about nature? Meat has been designated a menace. Among the 51 exhortations in Time magazine's " Global Warming Survival Guide" (April 9), No. 22 says a BMW is less responsible than a Big Mac for "climate change," that conveniently imprecise name for our peril. This is because the world meat industry produces 18 percent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions, more than transportation produces. Nitrous oxide in manure (warming effect: 296 times greater than that of carbon) and methane from animal flatulence (23 times greater) mean that "a 16-oz. T-bone is like a Hummer on a plate." Ben & Jerry's ice cream might be even more sinister: A gallon of it requires electricity-guzzling refrigeration and four gallons of milk produced by cows that simultaneously produce eight gallons of manure and flatulence with eight gallons of methane. The cows do this while consuming lots of grain and hay, which are cultivated by using tractor fuel, chemical fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides, and transported by fuel-consuming trains and trucks. Newsweek says most food travels at least 1,200 miles to get to Americans' plates, so buying local food will save fuel. Do not order halibut in Omaha. Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy one and squash a Prius with it. The Prius hybrid is, of course, fuel-efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and smelting (in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the battery-powered second motor, and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 miles -- trailing a cloud of carbon dioxide -- to Wales for refining and then to China for turning it into the component that is then sent to a battery factory in Japan. Opinions differ as to whether acid rain from the Canadian mining and smelting operation is killing vegetation that once absorbed carbon dioxide. But a report from CNW Marketing Research ("Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal") concludes that in "dollars per lifetime mile," a Prius (expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25, compared with $1.95 for a Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles). The CNW report states that a hybrid makes economic and environmental sense for a purchaser living in the Los Angeles basin, where fuel costs are high and smog is worrisome. But environmental costs of the hybrid are exported from the basin. We are urged to "think globally and act locally," as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has done with proposals to reduce California's carbon dioxide emissions 25 percent by 2020. If California improbably achieves this, at a cost not yet computed, it will have reduced global greenhouse gas emissions 0.3 percent. The question is: Suppose the costs over a decade of trying to achieve a local goal are significant. And suppose the positive impact on the globe's temperature is insignificant -- and much less than, say, the negative impact of one year's increase in the number of vehicles in one country (e.g., India). If so, are people who recommend such things thinking globally but not clearly? georgewill@washpost.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - An astute comment by a reader, which was trashed by the Washington Post's strange e-mail system: I read the methodology for the paper that this article cited, available here here click the DUST PDF VERSION.pdf link: (http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy)??? Many extremely dubious assumptions are buried within this document, amid frequent spelling and grammar errors e.g., for simplicities sake we have condensed the data. For example, the document notes that calculations were performed using the real-world fuel economy that consumers report, rather than EPA numbers. According to these numbers, on page 72 of the report, the Toyota Prius gets 29.6 miles per gallon mpg, while the Dodge Ram Hemi gets 27.6 mpg. The respective 2005 EPA rankings for both vehicles combined average city and highway mpg are 55 and 19, assuming the most efficient of the Ram Hemi trim lines. How can this be? The report alludes to adjust[ments] for real-world and current technologies. Which technologies? What adjustments? The report does not say. On page 94, a chart of predicted fuel economy deterioration has this footnote: We've weighted the averages to balance to the high side to eliminate those vehicles with the lowest maintenance and technological advances in engine management. That sentence makes no sense. The report assumes that hybrids will be discarded well before they wear out, because their buyers are techies, who will soon move on to the next gadget. The report adjusts numbers for the Prius because the current Prius will become obsolete sooner. What were the adjustments? How, exactly, were the assumptions about discarding a Prius early made? The report doesn't tell us. Despite a barrage of figures, the authors never explain their methodology. They tell us some of the variables they consider, e.g., driving habits, likelihood of frequent maintenance, and so on, but other crucial metrics are subsumed under the rubric of literally scores of other information. We never get an explanation of how the numbers are combined and weighted, even though weighting is clearly a major part of the report. Sources are never cited, and indeed, the report takes pride its confidential, real-world data gathering that cannot be attributed for fear of incriminating the suppliers of the data on page 8, they state that they will not release either the names of the individuals or the companies from which this information was obtained. The report claims to include metrics as detailed as the cost of bringing workers to a plant were included in the final number, but it never provides those numbers or tells us how they were obtaind and used in the calculations. No peer review is mentioned, and on page 278 the authors disdain other, peer-reviewed studies. As an alternative to the CNW report, consider the rankings published by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy ACEEE. Their methodology is clearly explained here: In these rankings, which include manufacturing impact, emissions, and materials impact, the Prius ranks second overall. . . . By david_lobron | Apr 13, 2007 1:55:46 PM --=====================_14423765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In my experience trying to talk to people about cold fusion and energy I have discovered that many journalists, politicians and other leading members of society are innumerate and scientifically illiterate. This should come as no surprise to the readers here, but sometimes extent of this general ignorance is jarring.

Attached is an article by George Will from the Washington Post about global warming that includes an outrageous comparison between the Prius and a Hummer. It is appalling that a major newspaper columnist such as Will gets away with publishing outlandish mistakes, numbers pulled out of a hat, and crazy notions such as the idea that a typical Prius owner will throw away the car before it wears out.

As we saw in January 2006 with the Kevles article, the Washington Post demands no rigor or accountability. Columnists write any damn thing that pops into their minds, and no follow-up correction or justification is published.

My mother often said that people are no more ignorant now than they used to be. Back in 1920 many important people and newspaper editors had no clue what electricity is, or that the earth orbits the sun. She said there were plenty of people in New York City who did not know where Europe is, or for that matter where the Statue of Liberty is. That is probably true, but it did not matter as much back then. The stakes were lower. Technology was not as powerful and there were fewer people. We were not on the verge of inducing global warming. We did not have thousands of thermonuclear weapons. Nowadays, ignorance causes more harm.

- Jed

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Washington Post

Fuzzy Climate Math

By George F. Will
Thursday, April 12, 2007; A27

In a campaign without peacetime precedent, the media-entertainment-environmental complex is warning about global warming. Never, other than during the two world wars, has there been such a concerted effort by opinion-forming institutions to indoctrinate Americans, 83 percent of whom now call global warming a " serious problem." Indoctrination is supposed to be a predicate for action commensurate with professions of seriousness.

For example, Democrats could demand that the president send the Kyoto Protocol to the Senate so they can embrace it. In 1997, the Senate voted95 to 0 in opposition to any agreement that would, like the protocol, require significant reduction of greenhouse gas emissions in America and some other developed nations but that would involve no "specific scheduled commitments" for 129 "developing" countries, including the second-, fourth-, 10th-, 11th-, 13th- and 15th-largest economies (China, India, Brazil, South Korea, Mexico and Indonesia). Forty-two of the senators serving in 1997 are gone. Let's find out if the new senators disagree with the 1997 vote.

Do they also disagree with Bjorn Lomborg, author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist"? He says: Compliance with Kyoto would reduce global warming by an amount too small to measure. But the cost of compliance just to the United States would be higher than the cost of providing the entire world with clean drinking water and sanitation, which would prevent 2 million deaths (from diseases such as infant diarrhea) a year and prevent half a billion people from becoming seriously ill each year.

Nature designed us as carnivores, but what does nature know about nature? Meat has been designated a menace. Among the 51 exhortations in Time magazine's " Global Warming Survival Guide" (April 9), No. 22 says a BMW is less responsible than a Big Mac for "climate change," that conveniently imprecise name for our peril. This is because the world meat industry produces 18 percent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions, more than transportation produces. Nitrous oxide in manure (warming effect: 296 times greater than that of carbon) and methane from animal flatulence (23 times greater) mean that "a 16-oz. T-bone is like a Hummer on a plate."

Ben & Jerry's ice cream might be even more sinister: A gallon of it requires electricity-guzzling refrigeration and four gallons of milk produced by cows that simultaneously produce eight gallons of manure and flatulence with eight gallons of methane. The cows do this while consuming lots of grain and hay, which are cultivated by using tractor fuel, chemical fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides, and transported by fuel-consuming trains and trucks.

Newsweek says most food travels at least 1,200 miles to get to Americans' plates, so buying local food will save fuel. Do not order halibut in Omaha.

Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy one and squash a Prius with it. The Prius hybrid is, of course, fuel-efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and smelting (in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the battery-powered second motor, and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 miles -- trailing a cloud of carbon dioxide -- to Wales for refining and then to China for turning it into the component that is then sent to a battery factory in Japan.

Opinions differ as to whether acid rain from the Canadian mining and smelting operation is killing vegetation that once absorbed carbon dioxide. But a report from CNW Marketing Research ("Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal") concludes that in "dollars per lifetime mile," a Prius (expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25, compared with $1.95 for a Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles).

The CNW report states that a hybrid makes economic and environmental sense for a purchaser living in the Los Angeles basin, where fuel costs are high and smog is worrisome. But environmental costs of the hybrid are exported from the basin.

We are urged to "think globally and act locally," as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has done with proposals to reduce California's carbon dioxide emissions 25 percent by 2020. If California improbably achieves this, at a cost not yet computed, it will have reduced global greenhouse gas emissions 0.3 percent. The question is:

Suppose the costs over a decade of trying to achieve a local goal are significant. And suppose the positive impact on the globe's temperature is insignificant -- and much less than, say, the negative impact of one year's increase in the number of vehicles in one country (e.g., India). If so, are people who recommend such things thinking globally but not clearly?

georgewill@washpost.com

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An astute comment by a reader, which was trashed by the Washington Post's strange e-mail system:


I read the methodology for the paper that this article cited, available here here click the DUST PDF VERSION.pdf link: ( http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy)??? Many extremely dubious assumptions are buried within this document, amid frequent spelling and grammar errors e.g., for simplicities sake we have condensed the data. For example, the document notes that calculations were performed using the real-world fuel economy that consumers report, rather than EPA numbers. According to these numbers, on page 72 of the report, the Toyota Prius gets 29.6 miles per gallon mpg, while the Dodge Ram Hemi gets 27.6 mpg. The respective 2005 EPA rankings for both vehicles combined average city and highway mpg are 55 and 19, assuming the most efficient of the Ram Hemi trim lines. How can this be? The report alludes to adjust[ments] for real-world and current technologies. Which technologies? What adjustments? The report does not say. On page 94, a chart of predicted fuel economy deterioration has this footnote: We've weighted the averages to balance to the high side to eliminate those vehicles with the lowest maintenance and technological advances in engine management. That sentence makes no sense. The report assumes that hybrids will be discarded well before they wear out, because their buyers are techies, who will soon move on to the next gadget. The report adjusts numbers for the Prius because the current Prius will become obsolete sooner. What were the adjustments? How, exactly, were the assumptions about discarding a Prius early made? The report doesn't tell us. Despite a barrage of figures, the authors never explain their methodology. They tell us some of the variables they consider, e.g., driving habits, likelihood of frequent maintenance, and so on, but other crucial metrics are subsumed under the rubric of literally scores of other information. We never get an explanation of how the numbers are combined and weighted, even though weighting is clearly a major part of the report. Sources are never cited, and indeed, the report takes pride its confidential, real-world data gathering that cannot be attributed for fear of incriminating the suppliers of the data on page 8, they state that they will not release either the names of the individuals or the companies from which this information was obtained. The report claims to include metrics as detailed as the cost of bringing workers to a plant were included in the final number, but it never provides those numbers or tells us how they were obtaind and used in the calculations. No peer review is mentioned, and on page 278 the authors disdain other, peer-reviewed studies. As an alternative to the CNW report, consider the rankings published by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy ACEEE. Their methodology is clearly explained here: In these rankings, which include manufacturing impact, emissions, and materials impact, the Prius ranks second overall. . . .

By david_lobron | Apr 13, 2007 1:55:46 PM
--=====================_14423765==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 14:09:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DL9bHG007737; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:09:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DL9Z1u007723; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:09:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:09:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=PbTrBY9GkKYz7lBFFaIMPQkZSO8NUotM6EyKU0fgQB5IAMxwaCDs1MIV919P9YMH; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <28777266.1176498574402.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:09:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8fa587141e18a99a591c7298c9343f98893caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.46 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74341 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 13, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Apr 13, 2007 12:53 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 13, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 13 Apr 07 Washington, DC 1. STEM CELLS: PRESIDENT BUSH VOWS TO PROTECT ONE-CELLED PEOPLE. The Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act passed the Senate 63-34, but President Bush promises a veto. He said the use of embryonic stem cells in research "crosses a moral line." In case you're wondering where this "moral line" is drawn, WN has looked into it. George W. Bush and other conservative theologians believe a "soul" is assigned to the fertilized egg at the instant of conception. That makes it a person, even though it's not counted in the census. In-vitro fertilization makes a lot more of these one-celled people than it needs; leftovers are stacked in the freezer until it starts filling up. President Bush cares deeply about these helpless one-celled people and wants to ensure they are properly flushed down the disposal rather than exploited by godless scientists interested only the reduction of suffering. 2. DIABETES: STEM CELL THERAPY IS USED TO TREAT TYPE 1 DIABETES. In yesterday's Wash Post, Sen. Orin Hatch (R-UT), a long-time proponent of stem cell research, is quoted as saying, "Our country is in grave danger of falling behind in one of the most promising fields of biomedical research." We already have. In a very preliminary study, researchers at the University of Sao Paolo in Brazil found that a remarkable 14 out of 15 type 1 diabetes sufferers were freed of dependence on insulin injections after treatment with stem cells drawn from their own blood. 3. SHUTTLE: SETTING A NEW AMERICAN RECORD FOR FLAG-POLE SITTING. By delaying the launch of the hail-dinged shuttle Atlantis until June, NASA has given Astronaut Sunita Williams a shot at the coveted American record for continuous time in space. The record will be set by Michael Lopez-Alegria next week when he returns to Earth on the Russian Soyuz. The delay didn't bother Williams, who told reporters, "I have lots to do up here." Maybe she could run another marathon. But how do you run in zero-g anyway? 4. "NOR ANY DROP TO DRINK": SIGNS OF WATER ON EXTRA-SOLAR PLANET. There's not likely to be a beach, and its 150 light-years away, but Hubble measurements of a star named HD 209458b have been interpreted as evidence of water in the atmosphere of a planet that passes in front of the "Sun-like" star every 3.6 days. The real significance is the possibility of someday being able to study the atmospheres of extra-solar planets for signs of life. 5. GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE: COOLING DOWN THE IPCC WARMING REPORT. The assessment of the impact of global warming issued by the IPCC last Friday, grim though it was, had actually been toned down in the final negotiations in Brussels at the insistence of the U.S. and China. According to the NY Times, Bush's top environmental advisor told reporters that the report "reinforces" the policies of the administration. Without population control measures, however, no other policies will help in the long run. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 14:28:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DLSOvK002864; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:28:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DLSLrn002843; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:28:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:28:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fRYsS2OFD3w4rZVySBEX4yh3CCyq355GMDnun/9p5r4Cc41m7AauiA9QJBq48LGL+AGreq6ix3O2+Qb1NtPRROTGF46p/XrW9Tk8TvzRjRuGMcIAfP23bjS/W5jz3Isv0aqW/19nJ3ow9mXMs24CHSXkQIxvsE5Qw6ALOhBHfBU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZswoUA18RY+M1nXsSVKJdQcGuV13zNvZ0czL01KaREYQtECDWkawyrzaCZOU8L/LLKau/4u5Yy14eEmUGo470gRXa7yy+dwYyP1UKjVHD6YlyrsSTLSbRRGdKFD8NM/ILXfFfOkjFz9TO0l3MggLMBBG1Ky1n8BeDvwrYo3J7jk= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:28:18 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74342 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just delete the fucking thing, Bill. We lived forever without it. Terry (I'll give you fifty dollars (US) to restore the forum the way it was.) PS (tell me how to pay you.) On 4/13/07, William Beaty wrote: > > My fault. I think I got it this time. > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 14:50:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DLo5Ix031296; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:50:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DLo3CC031278; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:50:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:50:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GTNmAgXgMtvOb/v5i63mLPbeo7MPJhB5JVmERw/Lr3d1rrWl6N3e1FcTb7OwNj/uzHUUjkNsvoCWYYANDktkk9RiEMplfogGorNnv0ICTlIgM5PBhwDtpyWRWXRVJp+QRJnLvLCj1ss1OarZO3flQPiCqitG67Rg78srChyhvN8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bwv67Wu3jeTWAIb+731iWy4A4Kr6siWlmfAhCvbYHN+gy9Y6f2vlixAJ/GjPOQ5dENdbZwrfQ/mWr8dsvYm8AaizQo+JN5qgC0uA0z5HjGkP7uSuCzWdqDjBjDMVUR85QLqzHJ/DYD4EGyCNQFuIjf/8Vy8Z5iWgNwcBTZvX+WI= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:50:02 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74343 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: seriously, i use gmail. all the posts are marked vortex for me anyways! On 4/13/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > Just delete the fucking thing, Bill. We lived forever without it. > > Terry > > (I'll give you fifty dollars (US) to restore the forum the way it was.) > > PS (tell me how to pay you.) > > On 4/13/07, William Beaty wrote: > > > > My fault. I think I got it this time. > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 14:50:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3DLobwQ013419; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:50:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3DLoYr1013398; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:50:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:50:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413172130.037cf7a0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:50:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8e8uM.A.ERD.ps_HGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74344 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:New edition of book Status: O X-Status: I uploaded a new edition of my book "Cold Fusion and the Future": http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf This has mainly minor changes, such as: Some corrections to embarrassing mistakes, such as on p. 18. I had an average American automobile going 80 km on 97 MJ of energy. The correct answer -- I hope! -- is 27 km. I thank Wu-Shou Zhang for pointing out this error. I think I mixed up gallons and liters. You can't be too careful. A revised evaluation of the cost of a massive desalination project, based on the cost of the new Ashkelon desalination plant in Israel, which is the world's biggest and cheapest per liter of water. The Ashkelon plant is not a co-generator, unlike the Saudi plants, so you have to add in the cost of the power supplies. That is, you have to add in the cost of electric generators for RO, or for the heat source with MSF. But with cold fusion these costs will be negligible so I think this is a good basis to make a rough estimate of a megaproject cost. This drops the estimate from $8.4 trillion down to $3.9 trillion. That's still too much. It is roughly twice the eventual cost of the Iraq war, assuming the war ends when Bush leaves office. As I said, people will only spend that kind of money on war. (Or as Charles Dickens pointed out, we are always more willing to build prisons than schools.) But the project would be a lot cheaper with cold fusion and I think there is a good chance it will be done sometime in the next few hundred years. Additional material from the upcoming Japanese edition, which I hope will be done & uploaded in a few more weeks. For example, I found a graph -- Fig. 16.1, p. 131 -- that actually proves you can see Mt. Fuji from downtown Tokyo more often these days. It isn't just my imagination. More proof that we can make progress if only we try. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 18:44:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3E1iIwS019562; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:44:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3E1iFSv019541; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:44:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:44:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:42:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413172130.037cf7a0@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74345 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen Status: O X-Status: When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with hydrogen to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much hydrogen? I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes from the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2. But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline? For that matter, has burning hydrocarbons already decreased oxygen levels? Just wondering... Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 19:32:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3E2VtWg013810; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:31:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3E2VrSm013793; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:31:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:31:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002501c77e3d$1bab3b60$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413172130.037cf7a0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:New edition of book Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:32:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74346 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Will you be printing any copies and if so give us a price for packages of 10. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 4:50 PM Subject: [Vo]:New edition of book >I uploaded a new edition of my book "Cold Fusion and the Future": > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf > > This has mainly minor changes, such as: > > Some corrections to embarrassing mistakes, such as on p. 18. I had an > average American automobile going 80 km on 97 MJ of energy. The correct > answer -- I hope! -- is 27 km. I thank Wu-Shou Zhang for pointing out this > error. I think I mixed up gallons and liters. You can't be too careful. > > A revised evaluation of the cost of a massive desalination project, based > on the cost of the new Ashkelon desalination plant in Israel, which is the > world's biggest and cheapest per liter of water. The Ashkelon plant is not > a co-generator, unlike the Saudi plants, so you have to add in the cost of > the power supplies. That is, you have to add in the cost of electric > generators for RO, or for the heat source with MSF. But with cold fusion > these costs will be negligible so I think this is a good basis to make a > rough estimate of a megaproject cost. This drops the estimate from $8.4 > trillion down to $3.9 trillion. That's still too much. It is roughly twice > the eventual cost of the Iraq war, assuming the war ends when Bush leaves > office. As I said, people will only spend that kind of money on war. (Or > as Charles Dickens pointed out, we are always more willing to build > prisons than schools.) But the project would be a lot cheaper with cold > fusion and I think there is a good chance it will be done sometime in the > next few hundred years. > > Additional material from the upcoming Japanese edition, which I hope will > be done & uploaded in a few more weeks. For example, I found a graph -- > Fig. 16.1, p. 131 -- that actually proves you can see Mt. Fuji from > downtown Tokyo more often these days. It isn't just my imagination. More > proof that we can make progress if only we try. > > - Jed > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 > 7:58 PM > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 21:05:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3E45EK7025842; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:05:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3E45CAt025826; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:05:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:05:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAEDwH0bLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj3EBAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,410,1170601200"; d="scan'208"; a="51053040:sNHT691997898" Message-ID: <462052F4.9070501@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:05:08 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <461F11FA.6010203@iinet.net.au> <7.0.1.0.2.20070413111430.0364a6d0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413111430.0364a6d0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74347 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Clueless Status: RO X-Status: That makes more sense. Thanks Jed. Jed Rothwell wrote: > Wesley Bruce wrote: > >>> W thinks we already have PHEVs obviously: >>> >>> http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/09/bush-almost-blows-himself-up/ >>> >>> Terry >> >> Right, pull the other #$%^# leg. Another attempt by Ford to sabotage >> hybrids. > > > This was a joke, circulated by Ford Motor Co. President and CEO Alan > Mulally. It was never intended to be taken seriously, but in the > Internet age these things sometimes get out of hand. See: > > http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070411/AUTO01/704110406/1013/BIZ04 > > > "Mulally's Bush tale ignites blog mania > > WASHINGTON -- In the age of YouTube, the Drudge Report and the > blogosphere, even a story told for laughs can spin out of control. . . ." > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 21:42:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3E4fxoH031047; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:41:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3E4fvo3031027; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:41:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:41:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:40:12 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push In-reply-to: <46167CCB.9040608@pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74348 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: >=20 >> the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties > to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral > into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also > have a drag effect on the planets. >=20 >=20 > I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste' > functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect > in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an > *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)! >=20 > Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit? That would be kind of ironic, since classical mechanics and quantum mechanics already depend on time symmetric laws of motion. > Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions, > and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative: >=20 > "This document presents some results that provide support for the > existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal > positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to > common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively > retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time, > which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time =AD the > direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated, > a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of > conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any > arrow of time =AD thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote >=20 > WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this > proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the > details" >=20 > ...yet >=20 > Jones >=20 Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 21:42:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3E4gFHC009289; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:42:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3E4gExH009263; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:42:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:42:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAP33H0bLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj3EBAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,410,1170601200"; d="scan'208"; a="61175943:sNHT16752456" Message-ID: <46205BAE.4060104@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:42:22 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <461F25CD.70907@usfamily.net> <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> <461F550D.5050904@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74349 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: OK done on the forum and I suggested a way to close the loop on the kinetica toy that we've seen in you tube. Lets see if they can clarify a little. John Berry wrote: > Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn. > > I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim, I have not the > slightest doubt. > However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight > answer to 'Does it run closed loop' > > I'd ask on the forum but I can't post yet. > > So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or > failing that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to: > > Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond > an initial impulse to get it started and done useful work > continuously? (or run under any other fair closed loop (no input) type > conditions) > > > If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to > that is 'No' a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly > convince me. > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* > wrote: > > Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that > data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are > expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks > I know > what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to > August > is still quite a long testing schedule. > > John Berry wrote: > > > rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering. > > > > By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many > > occasions that he means power generation details and nothing > more. > > (i think) > > > > > > > > Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread: > > > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7 > > > > > > > > > On 4/13/07, *John Berry* > > >> wrote: > > > > HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I > > can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will > > appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what > time? > > > > HM > > > > > > > > Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, > > text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no > 'big' > > news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few > months. > > Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, > primarily > > designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this > forum! > > Regular forum members will see little that is new, its > pretty much > > all been said in here. > > > > > > Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release > > the detailed technical specifications to the public as you > > promised or not? > > > > Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these > specs > > alongside the video update? > > > > > > > > Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT > > (the video update will go up around lunchtime). > > > > Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer! > > You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members > didn't > > already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release > > detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information > > (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my > > question? > > > > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > > >> wrote: > > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes > stacking up? > > > > > > > > > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. > > (or fixed) > > > > > Yep. Thats what I thought. > > What's the old saying about watched pots they never > boils. I'm > > watching > > the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in > Dublin > > so I'm a > > little early. > > An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. > > Anything major > > should be later in the day. They will need time for a > morning > > coffee, > > briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then > blame > > or fizz > > depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the > > shouting match > > happens while the stock market is closed. That way they > can't > > be accused > > of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the > > accusation > > they face. > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 21:51:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3E4pVmj002136; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:51:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3E4pThT002106; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:51:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:51:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAET7H0bLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj3EBAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,410,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="677087905:sNHT18664024" Message-ID: <46205DD5.2080901@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:51:33 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <461F29F3.9000807@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130007p15aba8d9y1add6faf5f48938d@mail.gmail.com> <461F3398.4060508@iinet.net.au> <461F4BE5.5070705@iinet.net.au> <461F550D.5050904@iinet.net.au> <538fa8f10704130506w500fce34n1e370163e1e550f1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10704130506w500fce34n1e370163e1e550f1@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74350 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration Status: O X-Status: Esa Ruoho wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aaRrEIp-0 > videoupdate is here > theres supposed to be text incoming at around 6pm gmt. > Yes got that useful data but not much I need the get an NDA from them and find out some harder numbers. The video shows me something Sean is a real believer. His body language and tone indicated a level of earnestness but not any thing that indicated a lie. Looking at the idea that its a stock market scam but can't see any evidence of the kind of trading that would indicate a scam. No plays on the Neodymium markets indicated either. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 13 22:18:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3E5IPaM010632; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:18:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3E5IOFR010624; Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:18:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:18:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAFwBIEbLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj3EBAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,410,1170601200"; d="scan'208"; a="61194607:sNHT7530438" Message-ID: <46206427.1010902@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:18:31 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74351 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > >When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with hydrogen >to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much hydrogen? >I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes from >the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2. > >But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the >proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline? > >For that matter, has burning hydrocarbons already decreased oxygen >levels? > >Just wondering... >Harry > > > Nice question. I believe the answer is no because plants simply make more oxygen to replace what is used up. Water is cracked in the photosyntheic process so both water and CO2 is recycled. Also carbonic acid in rain reacts with some rocks to release oxygen and break down the rock. That's why some rocks turn rapidly to soil when unearthed. Organic acids also play a large part but oxygen was used up making these acids, so there's no net gain. While inorganic oxygen production is far exceeded by photosynthesis it does exist. There is also geological up take of oxygen in some minerals that are not oxidized when they come to the surface. They then rust absorbing oxygen. Some iron meteorites absorb a lot of oxygen as they burn up, high speed rusting. Chondritc meteorites actually burn they are hydrocarbon rich. There are also significant natural hydrogen releases with some kinds of volcanoes. The gas cycles on this planet are very interesting and quite complex. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 14 02:22:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3E9MIG6014938; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:22:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3E9MGhx014923; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:22:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 02:22:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=as0gaNaDsv8TPufRHrjgcRkLP1cFnBxcxhzPLcc8P/qT/2/FupLOszpQS2LYFsyPQJ9UrX11KwL5F3a3ZtzvpJkGMdxypRxwJA5OEy+M7yveU6wsWytLBrWgNtDiba6fmMa0DsN0jfjd+USpjvFlD9MIq7/g3dx38041LuP1h8M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=POq6i6EbXpAhE68i0nz7sr6NX9b7DPn124HBB1BsV8X7JTv1Qr+90vKhNlCeFHmhwEIm0SNlkzaVhE606S03USTWM48bNX0cd0uT8VAf1Hz6ZAffEYShkLuTSGzXL40vXEgK8OgVZAEDLG6MxmgPa3tGjS4J7qlyiEP2S7rK9PY= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 05:22:15 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_12045_33462120.1176542535819" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74352 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:MIZEWELL V2007 #214 Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_12045_33462120.1176542535819 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo, Miz Well: Mize Well say so...... From1970 to1980 ...We mizwell SAY: Using Ba TiO and Str Ba Tio ...as a photocatalyst .... using light an a mixture of the previous... 80 percents quantum water can be broken to oxygen and hydrogen ......and guess what ?? what is are the absolute amount ???HMMM??? NOW: NB: all you arm chair theory.... math dooodesanddoode ettes .... Please let us know ............... 80 percents ""quantum [[theory]] "" How much sun ==== how much area === how much H2 and how much O2 ??? HMMM ??? Or is this to tough for you to figure out???? HMMM??? AND::::::'' If electric current [[and volts]] how much O and H would you need to get THE SAME ..O2 and H2 ???? Hmmm?? I bet 50 cents NO ONE will even TRY to respond to vortex!!! Ohhhh! .... a glove has been tossed into the ring..... I challenge ...................no one will even respond .......' Flame.... maybe ,,,, actual REAL world ..not f....cking ... possible.... the arm chair /// chickens ...... are just that..... REAL math... real data..... Ha Ha HHHAAAHHHAAAHHHAAA ............... NFP Not Freakibg Possiblew HHAAAHHAAA BBGB Ha Ha Ha nn ------=_Part_12045_33462120.1176542535819 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Dear Vo,
 
     Miz  Well:
 
      Mize Well  say so......
 
     From1970 to1980 ...We mizwell  SAY:
 
      Using Ba TiO and Str  Ba Tio ...as a photocatalyst .... using  light an a mixture of the previous... 80  percents  quantum  water can  be broken to oxygen and hydrogen
......and guess what    ?? what is are the absolute amount ???HMMM???
 
NOW:  NB:
 
 
all  you arm chair  theory.... math dooodesanddoode ettes ....
 
        Please let us know
 
...............  80 percents   ""quantum [[theory]]  ""
 
        How much  sun  ==== how much area   === how much
 
  H2 and    how much  O2  ???
 
          HMMM
???
 
           Or is this to tough for you to figure out???? 
 
 
           HMMM???
 
             AND::::::''    
 
        If electric current [[and  volts]]   how  much O and  H  would you need to get
THE SAME  ..O2 and  H2  ????  Hmmm??
 
          I bet 50 cents NO ONE will even  TRY to respond to vortex!!!
 
             Ohhhh!   .... a glove has been tossed into the ring.....
 
             I challenge ...................no one will even respond  .......'
 
        Flame.... maybe ,,,, actual REAL world ..not f....cking ... possible....
 
         the arm chair ///  chickens ...... are just that.....
 
         REAL math... real data.....
 
      Ha Ha HHHAAAHHHAAAHHHAAA ...............
 
        NFP   Not Freakibg  Possiblew   HHAAAHHAAA
 
       BBGB         Ha Ha Ha  
 
nn
 
------=_Part_12045_33462120.1176542535819-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 14 09:45:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3EGjnPd016039; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:45:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3EGjlhN016024; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:45:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070414124428.0366dcd0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:45:48 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:New edition of book In-Reply-To: <002501c77e3d$1bab3b60$c905a8c0@xptower> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070413172130.037cf7a0@mindspring.com> <002501c77e3d$1bab3b60$c905a8c0@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74353 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: >Jed, Will you be printing any copies and if so give us a price for >packages of 10. I do not plan to print any copies. You can print as many as you like at Kinkos. This edition is only a little different from the previous one, as I said. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 14 14:25:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3ELOuu0017765; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:24:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3ELOsvV017747; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:24:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:24:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 07:24:51 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <46206427.1010902@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <46206427.1010902@iinet.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:24:51 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74354 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:18:31 +1000: Hi, [snip] >Harry Veeder wrote: > >> >>When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with = hydrogen >>to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much = hydrogen? >>I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes = from >>the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2. >> >>But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the >>proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline? I have previously calculated (and posted), that if we continue to use = energy at the current rate, and combustion of hydrogen to produce water were our = only source, and plants didn't return any oxygen to the atmosphere, then it = would take 44000 years to use up all the oxygen in the atmosphere. >> >>For that matter, has burning hydrocarbons already decreased oxygen >>levels? [snip] >Nice question. I believe the answer is no because plants simply make=20 >more oxygen to replace what is used up. Water is cracked in the=20 >photosyntheic process so both water and CO2 is recycled.=20 Correct, however since the CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing, it would = appear that the plants can't keep up. >Also carbonic=20 >acid in rain reacts with some rocks to release oxygen and break down the= =20 >rock. Perhaps you could give an example of an acid/base reaction producing = oxygen? > That's why some rocks turn rapidly to soil when unearthed.=20 You must have a very long term view of life. ;) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 14 17:05:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3F04thT008349; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:04:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3F04sx9008338; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:04:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:04:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <002301c77906$1b9f0700$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> References: <002301c77906$1b9f0700$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:04:49 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74355 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Apr 7, 2007, at 3:15 AM, David Thomson wrote: > > I find several ideas in your theory to be heading in the right > direction, > such as the identification of "gravitational charge" as separate from > electrostatic charge. However, it is unclear to me what dimensions > gravitational charge has in your theory. This question has interesting ramifications with regard to dimensional analysis. Physical quantities can no longer be defined over MLTQ. M, inertial mass, is a derived unit. At the most fundamental level, reality must be defined, dimensional analysis defined, over the field of complex numbers, LT(a Q + b Q_g), where the value of real a and b are determined by particle type(s), and Q and Q_u are units of Coulomb and gravitational charge. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 14 20:12:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3F3CfZT024007; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:12:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3F3CdKI023979; Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:12:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 20:12:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 22:28:28 -0400 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Harry Veeder Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200704142228.28474.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline References: User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74356 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 14 April 2007 01:40, Harry Veeder wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties > > > > to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral > > into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also > > have a drag effect on the planets. > > > > > > I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste' > > functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect > > in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an > > *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)! > > > > Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit? > > That would be kind of ironic, since classical mechanics and quantum > mechanics already depend on time symmetric laws of motion. > > > Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions, > > and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative: > > > > "This document presents some results that provide support for the > > existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal > > positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to > > common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively > > retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time, > > which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time =AD = the > > direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated, > > a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of > > conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any > > arrow of time =AD thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote > > > > WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this > > proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the > > details" > > > > ...yet > > > > Jones > > Harry Just a thought: maybe they are a vector cross product of each other... Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 15 08:32:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3FFVs25014324; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:31:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3FFVjvB014256; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:31:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:31:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:X-Priority:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4J8d7nPlVF0Ohh4Hvc4cO0Yozx6tT42bHWdXWKjh22zS37++H7KkX2zzfp09I3a1pc47dRfdIfRo44OwwWUrROZ+9UQSlYPUntzA7//BYLVcNXePXuKLJrqfpD2Nwh/Oq2zEe1GwoLDp4hnMJbaVfUGFs/ASlLyqQG/AqsX2mdY= ; X-YMail-OSG: 7FKSloEVM1lhNy508nVUJy5M1kW.LPEkydGpTCDa_cXr7_Ol.Q.v0LBeiZV_UHm8WTlWWEsyjbwxvVPKlUAWsm.EfF.8dfSETPfzr3Hc7noSdhAr_6RCINjkx6Oykg-- Message-ID: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:31:34 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex X-Priority: 3))) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences Status: O X-Status: Ever wonder why everything that the USA touches or attempts to do in a particular region, seemingly tends to backfire in the worst sort of way? Is it some kind of Crusader's curse? Do not adjust your (sub)set... The Law of Unintended Consequences is more than a version of Murphy's law, or even "la loi d`emmerdement maximum" which is the more insightful Gallic version of Murphy's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence Unintended consequences are often the result of laws or imposed conditions which result in an outcome that is not at all anticipated by the genius-politicians, Generals, "social planners," or elected religious bigots who dreamed it up to accommodate some illogical belief structure. Their dogma chasing my karma? Wiki mentions as an example the Treaty of Versailles, which imposed harsh conditions on Germany following WWI, leading some to opine that World War II might not have occurred without the 'unintended consequence' of that Treaty. But that view overlooks the overriding importance of the Great Depression. Things are never so simple as historians want them to be, and this L.U.C. is not to be confused with a true law anyway - catch-22 takes care of that ! The state of Israel is another example of spoils-of-war gone berserk - in today's context of finding the roots of terrorism. Makes me wish for a hasty return to "isolationism." Elitism and Isolationism may not be PC these days, but they would appear to be entirely logical responses - in the eyes of a more advanced visitor from another planet. The "law" part of L.U.C. is that all well-intentioned human schemes have at least one unintended consequence. In other words, each cause has more than the one obvious effect, including negative or even reversed effects, which cannot be easily foreseen. The idea dates to the Scottish Enlightenment - Scots being notoriously cynical anyway. Unintended consequences can be classed into roughly three types: 1) A positive unexpected benefit (serendipity) which is rare in politics; but curiously is often closer to the norm in the R&D laboratory. Probably why researchers innately are aware of this situation 2) Usually the L.U.C. is merely an unending succession of mild annoyances and nagging obstinate problems... kinda like M$ Windows . A substantial minority of humans, sometimes a majority, abhor any kind of 'change' and fight it to the bitter end - even when they know they are better served by the change in the long run. "Enforcement" becomes necessary. This is the genesis of a "catch-22" circularity. 3) A negative perverse effect, which is the opposite result of what is intended -- which is most often the case of the best-laid plans of mice and mentchen in the political arena... ... since in 3) the slightly contrarian position of 2) above - becomes the majority view - i.e. the Fall-wellian (im)moral majority gets into power or is denied power; then - in the extreme situation these zealots are willing to strap on explosives and blow up their own kin, rather than to submit to any kind of outside "reform". Democracy may be a desirable goal in the West, but most Iraqis would welcome a return of Sadaam, or so it seems. Dramatic LUC scenarios (especially in art and cinema) often focus on the third situation of 'perverse results.' There is always cynical humor there. This dramatic situation often arises because a special-interest policy requires a disincentive (enforcement mechanism), and that is what causes reactions contrary to what was desired... i.e. a 'bureaucracy' arises to enforce the change. The Catch-22 is the general symptom of bureaucratic operation at all levels, and the natural illogic of an imposed "no-win situation". In the fabulous eponymous novel, "Catch-22" the idiom refers to a military rule which constantly changes (i.e. number of missions) serving to engender a mirrored insanity. All of this is a preamble to say that the upcoming surprise attack on Iran, likely to occur sometime before the next election, will assuredly have unintended consequences - unintended by even the geniuses in the Pentagon.... Has it not occurred to them that WE have now become the real international terrorists? The cynical observer of current events, might imagine that there was an implied admission by the British - through their low-key response to the recent hostage situation - that the enemy probably has a 'suitcase' nuke. OTOH - Moslem extremists would prefer to use it on a more hated target, perhaps Tel Aviv or lower Manhattan. A non-suspecting private Yacht sailing into NYC is a possibility. A good choice from the "send-a-massage" POV would be one owned by Richard Branson (no doubt named 'Virgin Atlantic"). Anyway, please leave me to my own samsaric cynicism and delusional nightmares. Maybe this episode will result in a screenplay - but the Dramatic threat above - seems to have been pretty well anticipated for years, going back to 007. Speaking of screenplays, why does the 'human predicament' seem to be so obviously "scripted" for the Law of Unintended Consequences, and/or the Catch-22 ? ID is not without its own lust for humor. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 15 11:51:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3FIpJOv014057; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:51:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3FIp4Ft014018; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:51:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:51:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y48ImkC0EBBJGMgH1XyOPgPfT+pKl7iFrZ5ArrMVjDqKDP/raz1Yjl6SkH6j76Cbru9EWg/kCzRxguomxX/AJI+lwcVPgaZtBR+VoyAhVz78G9M+O+sJ9aBPdGvgYUBhJEbLtqaor9YVqogw2zsZOpxhNShXbXtN8KihQpgPSK4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IdYtRLxF9fMY0r12FAIP0hnTmnpRviiKJ/hOHHKNf5OavYpn2EEJWv00QubNhACABbqaqrbDyS1oJ0dUJlUcoLbxLy2iRVNwCDlE1XXbmBq5mpPRBKtI49h+R6KxiR0pJOyBhrAAqOlJrU/mc7iQ8RZ89LO20bICRyqXHtYMSq0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:51:02 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences In-Reply-To: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/15/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Speaking of screenplays, why does the 'human predicament' seem to be so > obviously "scripted" for the Law of Unintended Consequences, and/or the > Catch-22 ? You *have* read William Bramley's _The Gods of Eden_, n'est-ce pas? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 15 13:10:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3FK9rc2013463; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:09:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3FK9pSx013433; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:09:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:09:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=a5QLoVZWt9HH6nF6Xtm54564tY072pbRDlg1KIOSx5tUk1rnEpdOcFflQl6bScP2A2A++vcd4gRvzrOIXQHEns3sForIUI6BJ31ZaI/PFRoXtXm0YvIdBGuTdjItOO8ZLna/vwEDlNw17cjnEWewRKU54kF2xn4og3fbaDO9ZHU= ; X-YMail-OSG: 8OE3qpEVM1n71lAhrZ8pQb02jcjvW5DLVnMj9emocj9HLnBGx.YAaOhogbuShjOERVLIhZUGJci7z0vwS__rYMmDJxi00_BGQvtgXLyb6GLA.joQj6w- Message-ID: <46228684.6050305@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:09:40 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences References: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > You *have* read William Bramley's _The Gods of Eden_, n'est-ce pas? > Terry Hmmm....maybe, but do not recall it ... am heading to the library just now anyway, so its on my list. According to this review-- it is an interesting thesis - especially if more-than-one, shall we say: 'competing interests' has been 'lurking in the shadows of history for centuries ? My stepfather was an intelligent man, and devout -- but he refused to believe that the Jehovah and the Allah could be the same. Maybe they are simply different 'mainframes' so to speak.... Wonder which one reports to the AC Clarke obelisk ? BTW ... "W" may have read Bramley (or more likely his speech writer): http://www.serendipity.li/eden.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 15 13:47:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3FKlL9N025702; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:47:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3FKlKJl025692; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:47:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:47:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kEJyzyF0NpLoO9lPJlOj2bknGOppZYW/dvfMzY7VzoAD6v0DD5K+PnnrxAZHEH3KzHBKysKhUExS4qNI4qolb69Z5jO6rfzvLGS3H0EkuFmukxqTB6oFheyKdLeA5n8ny1F1NkemOWn14RUSGYUhL0qK9V0GMpLsZBLh0kmPoxo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dyNjOAI4Qm6Uy+7dKKA98e3bfcKS3wI3Gkkvq8uKj6eomXzIjvrFYZo5pftDctPjlU96i5xl+FOg9qruCtJb9LwPe9sVY8H/z98QQb7ltb3zQUkqw+iXQjAzR8gT9/fmDhqCxSOztSsy7A+vOgfJjhuBaqG807d2d9DRcGWrOVo= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 16:47:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences In-Reply-To: <46228684.6050305@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> <46228684.6050305@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/15/07, Jones Beene wrote: > My stepfather was an intelligent man, and devout -- but he refused to > believe that the Jehovah and the Allah could be the same. Maybe they are > simply different 'mainframes' so to speak.... Wonder which one reports > to the AC Clarke obelisk ? Smart man. I equate neither Jehovah nor Yahweh nor Allah. I'll take Krishna. :-) > BTW ... "W" may have read Bramley (or more likely his speech writer): > > http://www.serendipity.li/eden.html As a Bonesman, he *must* to be in the know. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 15 21:50:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3G4nqCa032369; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:49:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3G4no1j032350; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:49:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:49:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:48:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push In-reply-to: <200704142228.28474.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I happen to think gravity is more like a rush rather than like a push or a pull. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 15 22:38:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3G5cpDd019595; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:38:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3G5cnVV019581; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:38:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:38:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:37:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:18:31 +1000: > Hi, > [snip] >> Harry Veeder wrote: >> >>> >>> When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with hydrogen >>> to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much hydrogen? >>> I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes from >>> the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2. >>> >>> But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the >>> proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline? > > I have previously calculated (and posted), that if we continue to use energy > at > the current rate, and combustion of hydrogen to produce water were our only > source, and plants didn't return any oxygen to the atmosphere, then it would > take 44000 years to use up all the oxygen in the atmosphere. > ok, so I won't invest in oxygen futures. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 15 22:44:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3G5ipgF020898; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:44:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3G5inOV020883; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:44:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:44:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:43:05 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen In-reply-to: <46206427.1010902@iinet.net.au> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1jr25C.A.NGF.Q1wIGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> >> When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with hydrogen >> to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much hydrogen? >> I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes from >> the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2. >> >> But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the >> proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline? >> >> For that matter, has burning hydrocarbons already decreased oxygen >> levels? >> >> Just wondering... >> Harry >> >> >> > Nice question. I believe the answer is no because plants simply make > more oxygen to replace what is used up. Water is cracked in the > photosyntheic process so both water and CO2 is recycled. Also carbonic > acid in rain reacts with some rocks to release oxygen and break down the > rock. That's why some rocks turn rapidly to soil when unearthed. Organic > acids also play a large part but oxygen was used up making these acids, > so there's no net gain. While inorganic oxygen production is far > exceeded by photosynthesis it does exist. There is also geological up > take of oxygen in some minerals that are not oxidized when they come to > the surface. They then rust absorbing oxygen. Some iron meteorites > absorb a lot of oxygen as they burn up, high speed rusting. Chondritc > meteorites actually burn they are hydrocarbon rich. There are also > significant natural hydrogen releases with some kinds of volcanoes. The > gas cycles on this planet are very interesting and quite complex. So the 'picture' is quite complex. Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 15 23:05:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3G64neK028669; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:04:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3G64maT028654; Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:04:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:04:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462311F1.7050709@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:04:33 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences References: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Ever wonder why everything that the USA touches or attempts to do in a > particular region, seemingly tends to backfire in the worst sort of > way? Is it some kind of Crusader's curse? How about, it's prophetically ordained? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 01:50:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3G8oEiC000771; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:50:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3G8oCZt000756; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:50:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:50:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462338B8.5060503@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:50:00 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7BLmGB.A.sL.DjzIGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:gravity modification Status: O X-Status: Last night's interviewee on C to C A M was David Sereda, http://www.fromheretoandromeda.com/ . He started the interview by talking about element 115, upsadaisyum. It would seem to me that if you could manage to acquire any quantity of that stuff, you'd better get some lead underwear too. Then he started in about there being 8 or 9 fundamental forces, that's the first I've heard about that. Then he started in on gravity modification. He said that if you take two high powered magnets, hold the like poles together, it falls slower than a comparable object. Then he started in on nuclear powered gravity canceling craft. By this time I'm thinking that I haven't encountered this much horse manure since I visited the horse barn at the state fair. Then I visited his website --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 04:02:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GB2EsU017858; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:02:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GB2CfU017849; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:02:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:02:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAMH0IkbLrQMUUGdsb2JhbAANj3EBASo X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,414,1170601200"; d="scan'208"; a="52723186:sNHT8580978" Message-ID: <462357BE.6060609@iinet.net.au> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:02:22 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences References: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <8ig26D.A.zWE.ze1IGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unintended or honourable attempt. --[very OT]-- There are times in history when Generals and politicians must attempt the impossible just to prove its impossible. The Dieppe raid in WW2 comes to mind. People were demanding action and something had to be done even if it cost thousands of lives. It did but it proved the point and resulted in the long term Quadruple strategy of: 1. Hold England and Egypt while using the size of the British Empire to balance the Axis. 2. Wear the Germans down in battlefields of your choosing, North Africa and Russia. 3. Keep the Russians fighting. Stalin threatened to negotiate a separate treaty. Hence Dieppe. 4. Call in Americans. Which took too long. Iraq was the threat. A real danger. Saddam, his sons and his party were killing people in the worst possible way. * Saddam was seeking WMD. Iran was seen as a greater threat in the 1970's so America under Carter was selling. After the Halabja poison gas attack Reagan cut support. Europe and Russia continued to supply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wmd_iraq * Yes some of Saddam’s people were ripping the WMD program off for their own wealth. Swimming pools and playstations were bought or built with diverted WMD money it seems. :-D * In the last days of the first gulf war orders to use the WMD [gas] or destroy it was given. Those orders were quickly acted upon. * The orders were then contradicted when the US forces ran out of gas south of Basra. Are you going to tell the Dictator you had just burned his precious poison gas? The officers responsible filled the barrels with other stuff and tried to hide their action. * Trucks moved tons of stuff to Syria in November just before the “alliance of the willing” attacked. Was that WMD? * The tapes of Saddam’s cabinet meetings indicates that HE thought that he had a lot of WMD somewhere. * Radio intercepts indicated that the Iraqi officers thought; 'I may not have gas but the general either side does.' Radio calls were heard “ For Gods sake use the gas.” followed by the reply “I thought you had the Gas, @$*%#$” Staff cars were seen racing away from the lines minutes later. * We used Moab’s to obliterate the last line of defence around Baghdad. A Bomb that size can destroy a lot of chemical weapons and there is a good chance that the remaining chem. rounds were being kept close given the problem in the first gulf war. Moab’s don’t leave records or witnesses. Given all that I’m surprised we found what we found which was some documentation on WMD and a few scattered cashes of chem. rounds. Because the WMD could not be proven the Iraqi dissidents Iraqi opposition group and Ahmed Chalabi , the major intelligence sources, were rejected as the ideal people to take over and run an interim government. Their advice to disarm the Iraqi army and put it to work rebuilding while they worked out who could be trusted was ingnored. We ended up with a shai religious dominated assembly and unemployed troops signing up with al-Qaeda or the Mahdi army. It was Ahmed Chalabi who thought the Iraqis would welcome the Americans and for a few weeks he was correct but with the Iraqi opposition group side lined the USA did not know how to vet intelligence officers or how to screen volunteers; interpreters, police recruits, etc. Miss handling those Iraqis that volunteered to help the Americans has cost them dearly. Note Australia has had very few casualties and we handle the Iraqis working with us differently. I’m an Aussy if you did not know. ;-) Yes Chalabi is up on Fraud charges in Jordan but you can’t run a government in exile with open books, you must conceal all transactions and if you can steal from the enemy; Go for it. We did in WW2. British Intelligence stole millions of diamonds from Antwerp as it fell to the Germans. The French resistance and others did equivalent frauds in occupied Europe. There was a time when the victor wrote the history. Today we live in an age where the vanquished continue to wage a propaganda war after defeat. Was it all doomed to fail? Perhaps, some have argued that democracy and Islam are incompatible. Arguably an attempt had to be made. Pulling out now just as we are learning how to beat the enemy would be disastrous. Are we ready for 5 million refugees, all of those that trusted us and now face death at the hands of whoever rises to the top. Are we ready for a war with Turkey and Iran as Kurdistan becomes a nation state? Arbil, capital of the Kurdistan Regional Government is the only place in Iraq you can walk free without fear of bombs or kidnappings. A Sunni-stan would be a haven for Al-Qaeda, the Shia provinces would in effect become a militant Iranian puppet state. Christians would be massacred every where but in Kurdish territory, there the churches are growing ten times bigger. International Law does not really allow conquers to partition countries. It has been done and it does work. The UN has a set of rules banning it and another outlining how to do it!?! We seem settle for the messy process of ethic cleansing. I don’t have a plan B. Neither does the US congress or anyone else I can find. I do know if Cold fusion, Steorn or some super combination of renewable energy technologies gets us off “the Oil addiction”, there will be a bigger mess in the middle-east but at least they will quickly go from fighting with the best weapons money can buy to facing us with swords, muskets and camels. Jones Beene wrote: > Ever wonder why everything that the USA touches or attempts to do in a > particular region, seemingly tends to backfire in the worst sort of > way? Is it some kind of Crusader's curse? > > Do not adjust your (sub)set... The Law of Unintended Consequences is > more than a version of Murphy's law, or even "la loi d`emmerdement > maximum" which is the more insightful Gallic version of Murphy's. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence > > Unintended consequences are often the result of laws or imposed > conditions which result in an outcome that is not at all anticipated by > the genius-politicians, Generals, "social planners," or elected > religious bigots who dreamed it up to accommodate some illogical > belief structure. Their dogma chasing my karma? > > snip snippity snip > Jones > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 05:58:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GCw5X4005161; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:58:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GCvrFC005037; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:57:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c78026$e176cb80$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <46224556.3070508@pacbell.net> <462357BE.6060609@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:58:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gosh !, Golly !, Gee !, Wesley, are you and Jones telling me the world ain't run on the level? Who would have thunk it? Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 06:50:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GDoFkb031707; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:50:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GDoA1C031662; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:50:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:50:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070416094905.0374f350@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:50:11 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74369 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune Status: O X-Status: This is rather strange. See: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140065apr16,0,1831279.story?coll=chi-business-hed Article begins: INSIDE TECHNOLOGY Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power By Jon Van Published April 16, 2007 For several years a Chicago entrepreneur has labored quietly building a company to create an alternative to batteries for powering cell phones and other small gadgets. The company, Lattice Energy LLC, deliberately kept a low profile because its core technology, first called cold fusion 18 years ago, has long been ridiculed by mainstream scientists. Lewis Larsen, Lattice's founder, didn't want his enterprise tainted by the empty promises of unlimited cheap energy surrounding cold fusion. . . . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 06:58:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GDw4NF004775; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:58:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GDw3Kg004749; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:58:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:58:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070416095703.0373dc70@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:58:04 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070416094905.0374f350@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070416094905.0374f350@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74370 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I should explain this is strange partly because the same reporter wrote this story recently: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0703300070mar30,1,1977.story?ctrack=3&cset=true Article begins: Loyal group chases cold-fusion dream Once touted as source of unlimited energy, cold fusion generates little interest today By Jon Van Tribune staff reporter Published March 30, 2007 Unlimited energy brewed in a bottle sparked a worldwide sensation nearly 18 years ago. Promises that cold fusion would power the planet, however, were shot down in little more than a month. On Thursday, researchers who continue to believe in cold fusion drew fewer than a dozen spectators to Chicago for the national meeting of the American Chemical Society. Still, the dream believers remain undeterred. . . . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 07:06:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GE6AAL007968; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:06:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GE69aR007953; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:06:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:06:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=JvzuXgAL4EL54ZfCN+7rGsQo3iFpU748l/FlGfqepz8C8YEa8DUseoXoxOOk8MeV6Q4sdi36RJsx9v3F3XKiFbLstQxIAqLGcUyuY9ufPjj7yWnMCtiMZehSoAEw2npdwFaEWhky0Msbmqyedi6qf7GQHTCpA0tUpqtMf7CxqD8= ; Message-ID: <462382C8.5020705@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:06:00 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74371 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Enabling the Letts-Craven effect? Status: O X-Status: Affordable semiconductor lasers have come a long way in recent years both in output and efficiency. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcWqgbn7fA Soon -- this product will be banned or severely restricted, since any teenager can buy one with dad's MasterCard. Neighborhood cats beware! In may ways, these lasers are as dangerous than a loaded gun now; and in a few years ??? especially since the rate of increase per unit of cost seems to be exceeding Moore's law. Letts used a 30 milliwatt laser (.03 watts). This one is 1.7 watts, almost 60 times more powerful. Of course, there is no indication that the Letts-Creavens effect can be "super-sized" (the All-American solution for every problem ). However, wouldn't you love to be the first to try this? If the effect were somehow to be the same ratio at higher power -- i.e. a gain of thirty times the laser input power, then the cell should be outputting 50 watts. Whoa. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 09:33:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GGXQ6k001168; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:33:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GGXOM2001155; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:33:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:33:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416093707.035a4d50@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:38:23 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070416095703.0373dc70@mindspring.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070416094905.0374f350@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070416095703.0373dc70@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74372 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, isn't it? At 06:58 AM 4/16/2007, you wrote: >I should explain this is strange partly because the same reporter wrote >this story recently: > >http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0703300070mar30,1,1977.story?ctrack=3&cset=true From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 12:21:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GJLAd8028451; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:21:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GJL7xD028420; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:21:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:21:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TjRPrMBccYTCEMnOo6Wbph7k9e6RXouk1Blppw854zclq+XJgR/LDirWIb2dgdy3Zq1G6+MH7OBjVwZZS6Q1kUo8xhSxXK5MRm9pl+/k1FPnGujwg9VaBU06oB6FzeIBaZcsgPLD8IVADbKCONnuB31hEAvs9vf5nZtVVoN3KFg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Xgv+YjtA/6Yhvx2kGhTzVnismKd3J7XSZ59UOzjtFuUQaZgha4SSSIjMGGvIdULbdbOcBh/1bG2ZfXzzeSGArm5HH+7gasClRuswCu7oxFwN5fqZ36UG5if+sCpDcms25eNaWx3bT70oFDyYJZq95wC/hneNWS/9AVpo5QqbLe8= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:21:05 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200704142228.28474.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74373 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Naaa, the earth sucks. On 4/16/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > I happen to think gravity is more like a rush rather than like > a push or a pull. > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 13:48:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GKmQQB006507; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:48:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GKmK2R006441; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:48:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:48:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=JSHf5llUCMOfr/Ux548JMswknnQuDrwKlQvbyjuF1vna19eqCn/RTdJwFIiiOubTTQHb2yr1HNVoalpZf9+Yjs+4I9H+HgMSEHs+uZlCNeFJ+4GIUeeIkBX46bcF7W/1MyeZlp23bTlvIj8BvWwdO+H+nKHPA4AAs1Oj/i9VRwU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=toN3tSWKSp1jD/8Qu3P+3V4rSvWiueusgbAX8A5rnyXPnzsY7JncPzscNq0kgt2fK025u2MXGGq9M09gf/xJpJRhJLI2P6Vj/zQAc0/XwLpqi02yQOeMiDbNCj5T6bTISMtCGZoqtsMFo70VGqhKJd/72xCEAZR1OUYmn2jkpy0= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704161348u27f1c503yd75dd81c809b2bc0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:48:18 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10703231022i39b8be50k45a6ed27ce0bb6cf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_50999_23828794.1176756498757" References: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <4603E933.2060400@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10703231022i39b8be50k45a6ed27ce0bb6cf@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74374 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_50999_23828794.1176756498757 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline anyone had any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel report? (P=F6pel, Franz Rapport Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelroh= ren mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952. surely any university dealing with vortical flow mechanics (or self-organizing flow technology) could benefit from replicating and proving/disproving this phenomenon. On 23/03/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: > > On 23/03/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > > > >>Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I'm Just > > watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for >>building more w= ater > > vortex generators. I was particularly impressed with the implosion of = the > > tiny bubbles, which caused a water >>hammer effect. It amazes me that = air > > bubbles can be both suddenly created and suddenly collapsed like that. > > I've considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. They > > clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you= have > > some ideas for experiments that you'd like to try? > > > > it would be amazing to find out what kind of results you get when applyin= g > a sonic frequency to the water during the process of creating a vortex. > ...if there is a way of measuring what happens to the sonic frequency the > water is conducting, when the water is forced into a vortex. > > also if they could find a way of going through the Prof. P=F6pel Report a= nd > replicating those experiments using their technology to verify whether a > vortical movement of water results in negative friction. > > (P=F6pel, Franz Rapport Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelr= ohren > mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, Institut f=FCr > Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952. > ------=_Part_50999_23828794.1176756498757 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline anyone had any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel report?<= br>
(P=F6pel, Franz=20 Rapport  Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelrohren mit= verschniedener Wandform=20 International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute o= f Technology in Stuttgart, 1952.

surely any university dealing with= vortical flow mechanics (or self-organizing flow technology) could benefit= from replicating and proving/disproving this phenomenon.

On 23/03/07, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:
On 23/03/07, thomas malloy<= /b> <temalloy@usfamily.net= > wrote:
>>Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I'm= Just watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for >>buildin= g more water vortex generators.  I was particularly impressed wit= h the implosion of the tiny bubbles, which caused a water >>hammer ef= fect.  It amazes me that air bubbles can be both suddenly created= and suddenly collapsed like that.
I've considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. Th= ey clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you = have some ideas for experiments that you'd like to try?

it would be amazing to find out what kind of results you get when= applying a sonic frequency to the water during the process of creating a v= ortex. ...if there is a way of measuring what happens to the sonic frequenc= y the water is conducting, when the water is forced into a vortex.

also if they could find a way of going through the Prof. P=F6pel Report and replicating thos= e experiments using their technology to verify whether a vortical movement = of water results in negative friction.

(P=F6pel, Franz=20 Rapport  Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelrohren mit= verschniedener Wandform=20 International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute o= f Technology in Stuttgart, 1952.

------=_Part_50999_23828794.1176756498757-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 13:50:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GKoPhH020038; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:50:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GKoJpF020000; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:50:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:50:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=O4M2AZpdZ7WN+gG99L6tuHo4AJaReCj1bWByYAR5jRlwewUo7JP/eDNgj7+uCz+swEW4ttffpVN1qBxY9Bmik26BVroAACAeImia+DkJF+IzDDv5+BAqJsgJW25ND5gg0cB5wobcV2RtJE2IwMLa4lfG1i3l+4nuVtVb0Z+rvpY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=SgNfNe40E4tUiwknWdRlWJ1nDX13+iA9TLW7I3/6svk9Wydk5UTtAN8xoxdwwI1yC22m+L04HWeKfkXH8VWYYFACfxTbTPK8KzrVubrs4FC1fAM88mjiYVty1z4j1LgTIAREVOZ5XCYGvsBP5RJ78nvjv3/RCUFVbyaPLVXGcEg= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704161350k1e6233f2if782cd1b72cc9f3d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:50:14 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: "Terry Blanton" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_51035_27644940.1176756614574" References: <538fa8f10703231014h5a5470fdg83225264c943f542@mail.gmail.com> <009501c76d72$fbef45d0$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <538fa8f10703232336m78a6ffc4l90888203ebe8ce44@mail.gmail.com> <538fa8f10703240707m3c1fa4f7gb2432b48019e816@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: <2BPT3.A.W4E.KG-IGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74375 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_51035_27644940.1176756614574 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline yes, this is the basic principles of sympathetic vibratory physics lecture of dale pond - where he expounds on john keely, cavitation, waterhammer effect, implosion, and the resonance/SVP principles of what exactly happened with acoustic cavitation + resonance based disassociation with john keelys machines. this can be brought into viktor schauberger and vortex technology easily also. enjoy! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561 On 24/03/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > On 3/24/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: > > linking gmail isnt quite gonna do it. try again! :) > > Okay, how's this :-) > > http://snipurl.com/mf6j > > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&q=dale+pond&hl=en > ------=_Part_51035_27644940.1176756614574 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline yes, this is the  basic principles of sympathetic vibratory physics  lecture of dale pond - where he expounds on john keely, cavitation, waterhammer effect, implosion, and the  resonance/SVP principles of  what exactly happened with acoustic cavitation + resonance based disassociation  with john keelys machines. this can be brought into viktor schauberger and vortex technology easily also.
enjoy!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561

On 24/03/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com > wrote:
On 3/24/07, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com > wrote:
> linking gmail isnt quite gonna do it. try again! :)

Okay, how's this :-)

http://snipurl.com/mf6j

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&q=dale+pond&hl=en

------=_Part_51035_27644940.1176756614574-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 14:24:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GLOVM1019002; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:24:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GLOUVM018987; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:24:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:24:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:22:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070416095703.0373dc70@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74376 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can you please post or summarise this story because viewing it requires a subscription. Harry Jed Rothwell wrote: > I should explain this is strange partly because the same reporter > wrote this story recently: > > http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0703300070mar30,1,1977.story?ctrack > =3&cset=true > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 16:43:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3GNhls8008493; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:43:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3GNhilH008473; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:43:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:43:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10704161348u27f1c503yd75dd81c809b2bc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <4603E933.2060400@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10703231022i39b8be50k45a6ed27ce0bb6cf@mail.gmail.com> <538fa8f10704161348u27f1c503yd75dd81c809b2bc0@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-891370808 Message-Id: <63A7534C-BAA4-4C2D-931F-3540EEB15183@newalexandria.org> From: Zachary Jones Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:44:26 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74377 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --Apple-Mail-2-891370808 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Esa Ruoho wrote: > anyone had any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel =20 > report? > > (P=F6pel, Franz Rapport Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit =20 > Wendelrohren mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, =20 > Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in =20 > Stuttgart, 1952. > I spent a while, and pestered many a librarian - some of whom for =20 which English was not their first language. Two people searching the =20= university of Stuttgart could not find it, and offered that it may =20 have been lost. I've wondered if Callum Coats has an original, =20 though I seem to remember discussing the matter with Curt Halberg and =20= he offering that a copy wasn't in Coat's possession. I never =20 received word from Jorg Schauberger. I would try him if I were to =20 again be looking. Sadly, it didn't seem too unreasonable that a library would loose a =20 copy of an old technical report, unpublished by formal journals. =20 Still, it would be a notable loss in this case. Someone today will =20 have to reproduce the work! Zak --Apple-Mail-2-891370808 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Apr 16, 2007, = at 1:48 PM, Esa Ruoho wrote:

anyone had = any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel = report?

(P=F6pel, = Franz Rapport=A0 Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit = Wendelrohren mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, = Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, = 1952.


I spent a while, and pestered = many a librarian - some of whom for which English was not their first = language.=A0 Two people searching the university of Stuttgart could not = find it, and offered that it may have been lost.=A0 I've wondered if = Callum Coats has an original, though I seem to remember discussing the = matter with Curt Halberg and he offering that a copy wasn't in Coat's = possession.=A0 I never received word from Jorg Schauberger.=A0 I would = try him if I were to again be looking.

Sadly, it didn't seem too = unreasonable that a library would loose a copy of an old technical = report, unpublished by formal journals.=A0 Still, it would be a notable = loss in this case.=A0 Someone today will have to reproduce the = work!


Zak

= --Apple-Mail-2-891370808-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 18:33:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3H1XDko024582; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:33:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3H1XBlQ024557; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:33:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:33:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:38:08 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070416095703.0373dc70@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74378 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune Status: O X-Status: At 03:22 PM 4/16/2007, you wrote: >Can you please post or summarise this story because viewing >it requires a subscription. > >Harry http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140065apr16,0,1831279.story?coll=chi-business-hed INSIDE TECHNOLOGY Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power By Jon Van Published April 16, 2007 For several years a Chicago entrepreneur has labored quietly building a company to create an alternative to batteries for powering cell phones and other small gadgets. The company, Lattice Energy LLC, deliberately kept a low profile because its core technology, first called cold fusion 18 years ago, has long been ridiculed by mainstream scientists. Lewis Larsen, Lattice's founder, didn't want his enterprise tainted by the empty promises of unlimited cheap energy surrounding cold fusion. Larsen, who has had careers in investment banking and consulting, has worked with many scientists doing experiments with what now is called low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR) rather than cold fusion. Even with the name change, he said, many scientists mistakenly still believe they are creating nuclear fusion in a bottle when they thrust palladium or other metals into heavy water and add energy. "A lot of people are doing very good chemistry experiments, but they don't understand what's happening," Larsen said. "They write fine papers but then add foolish speculation." A few years ago Larsen began collaborating with a theoretical physicist, professor Allan Widom of Northeastern University in Boston, to help him understand why LENR experiments often give off heat and charged particles. Before taking on the assignment, Widom was a skeptic, but Larsen showed him enough experimental results from laboratories in Russia, China and Japan, as well as the U.S., to convince him that something important was happening. The problem soon became apparent to Widom: The experimenters were convinced that atoms of a form of hydrogen called deuterium were fusing together to form helium. "That kind of fusion requires very high temperatures," Widom said. Rather than look for other explanations, most experimenters preferred to invent new laws of physics to account for cold fusion, Widom said. But instead of a strong nuclear force like fusion at work, he concluded that a weak force was at the core of the experimental results. Electrons were combining with protons to form neutrons, giving off energy in the process. The entrepreneur and the professor have published their Widom-Larsen theory of low-energy nuclear reactions and have been meeting with business executives and government officials to build credibility for their ideas. "Our model invokes no new physics," said Widom. "Everything we've done conforms to the Standard Model's predictions for weak interactions." With advances in nanotechnology, Larsen predicts it will become practical to design devices using LENR to power cell phones that can last 500 hours. The technology also might be used to produce power in other settings, but Larsen said, "We're going for the best available market with lots of demand, and that's electronic mobile devices." Larsen, who has competitors domestically and abroad also working on the problem, predicts that within five years there will be power sources based on LENR technology. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 00:46:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3G7jwMS004651; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:45:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3G7juCm004640; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:45:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:45:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=b/cbF7If2PIjnxkw4sBKZCsrq8ZUUXP4Bw9yxQAPGSFndhQlGP23HLjmGf4SVDh0zeQY6XuwxjjAkTn6wZq1BbTYI+1DyiZWCvrR5Fl0UKlDAI5pZj+qyx60tsEBnXPTn1Yzl7f1wK+W+aPEobKOZ0F1k3RyDhD+3JgmQtDYWF4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=OHfWIEiWMGFOM0SXyV6F2IHCwK7sxOEULcAt5AIKx8Q3QuMAu7qAJA+rpLiEVKXWL5A3Ytqt8pxnkf/jCC9Gg/9FweSZfMxEyjQrdXULEy7hsMtZV7ECit0ycfV7YIovLbbdzDj6HK5D/zR9Sg7eKngbiGR5doL/gaHXSu4r3po= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704160045u318bdab5i73e1c235a97a19b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:45:54 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: "ashtweth nihilistic" , strait_truth@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, hameltech@yahoogroups.com, jimshoe_sez_orgonite_iz_alive_if_made_well@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35735_19996633.1176709554770" Resent-Message-ID: <6VRHnB.A.XIB.zmyIGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Fwd: [KeelyNet_Interact] overcoming the 'lock' of self-running magnetics From: Jerry Decker X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_35735_19996633.1176709554770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline howard johnson connection - perhaps steorn connection? searl connection? and hamel mention. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:36:34 -0000 Subject: [KeelyNet_Interact] Digest Number 134 To: KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com overcoming the 'lock' of self-running magneticsFrom: Jerry Decker voltage continuous overcoming the 'lock' of self-running magnetics Posted by: "Jerry Decker" jdecker@keelynet.com jwdatwork Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:28 pm (PST) Hola Folks! I received a nice email and did my rant thing after these two articles, but might be useful for experimenter insights. If you've not seen the video yet, check out these two; 04/15/07 - Video - 5 seconds Self-Spinning Magnet Setup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0KHZ53g678 Beginnings of a possible perpetual motion effect. Uses a hard drive magnet, 6 bearings and a toy elliptical magnet bought in Mexico. Moving the bearings changes the magnetic path to form new poles. As shown in frames 4 and 5, this is the configuration which gave 5 seconds of spin for a brief twist to get it started. In the video you can see it spinning rapidly for about 5 seconds. It might be possible to extend this effect into a continuous motion. / Comments: It appears 8 bearings would comprise a complete circle around the hard drive magnet, the configuration uses 6 bearings with 5 bearings next to each other (from 45 to 225 degress) and one separated at roughly 315 degrees to assist the spin effect. -------------------- 04/15/07 - Video - Self-running Magnetic Spindle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96mGrUOwTvY 23 yildir galisan gergek dvnergeg sadece bu videoda. I believe Donergec means free energy in Polish. Anyway, the video link has been posted on KeelyNet before and everytime I see it I am fascinated as it appears to be self-powered. To the left you can see what look like two packs of cigarettes as this guy smokes like a chimney. But the spindle spins for the duration of the video which runs for about 4:21 minutes and has contrast problems, too bright on the spindle and too dark elsewhere. I took two captures and cleaned them up as best I could. -------------------- > Also the magnetic spindal thing in polish looks a lot like a plastic > toy that you can buy at science museums. Yes, and reported here several months ago...these spindles sell for about $10-$20 and you give it a little spin and it spins for a minute or two...but in the video, his APPEARS to spin the length of the video. One end is supported, the other floats free on a magnetic bearing...if this guy is for real, he might have arranged the magnets at a 45 degree angle like Howard Johnson and others who have claimed a self-running effect. The trick of course it the lock at about 340 degrees or so where it needs a kick to jump it back into the propulsive field. Because this spindle wobbles (bobbles) when spinning it might be self-resetting, what Bearden calls 'regauging'. It is also what Hamel calls the 'Butterly Effect' where magnets wobble enough to recock themselves into the propelling field. See; http://www.keelynet.com/ohsako/ohsako.htm on magnetic anomalies which include the TOMI and Ohsako devices. Troy Reed used something similar many years ago but with spring loaded clicker inkpens that recocked as the machine turned. In the old videos you can hear this thing clicking like crazy for each pen on the huge wheel. The elliptical magnet in the first video is novel because of the shape letting it recock...everyone know that weebles wobble but they won't fall down...well some people claim to have discovered a geometry which rights itself under any condition...I looked but couldn't find the reference...oh well, just buy a weeble and you got it. -- ------=_Part_35735_19996633.1176709554770 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
howard johnson connection - perhaps steorn connection? searl connection?  and hamel mention.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com <KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:36:34 -0000
Subject: [KeelyNet_Interact] Digest Number 134
To: KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com

 

overcoming the 'lock' of self-running magnetics From: Jerry Decker

voltage continuous overcoming the 'lock' of self-running magnetics

Posted by: "Jerry Decker" jdecker@keelynet.com   jwdatwork

Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:28 pm (PST)

Hola Folks!

I received a nice email and did my rant thing after these two articles,
but might be useful for experimenter insights.

If you've not seen the video yet, check out these two;

04/15/07 - Video - 5 seconds Self-Spinning Magnet Setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0KHZ53g678

Beginnings of a possible perpetual motion effect. Uses a hard drive
magnet, 6 bearings and a toy elliptical magnet bought in Mexico. Moving
the bearings changes the magnetic path to form new poles. As shown in
frames 4 and 5, this is the configuration which gave 5 seconds of spin
for a brief twist to get it started. In the video you can see it
spinning rapidly for about 5 seconds. It might be possible to extend
this effect into a continuous motion. / Comments: It appears 8 bearings
would comprise a complete circle around the hard drive magnet, the
configuration uses 6 bearings with 5 bearings next to each other (from
45 to 225 degress) and one separated at roughly 315 degrees to assist
the spin effect.
--------------------
04/15/07 - Video - Self-running Magnetic Spindle

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96mGrUOwTvY

23 yildir galisan gergek dvnergeg sadece bu videoda. I believe Donergec
means free energy in Polish. Anyway, the video link has been posted on
KeelyNet before and everytime I see it I am fascinated as it appears to
be self-powered. To the left you can see what look like two packs of
cigarettes as this guy smokes like a chimney. But the spindle spins for
the duration of the video which runs for about 4:21 minutes and has
contrast problems, too bright on the spindle and too dark elsewhere. I
took two captures and cleaned them up as best I could.
--------------------
> Also the magnetic spindal thing in polish looks a lot like a plastic
> toy that you can buy at science museums.

Yes, and reported here several months ago...these spindles sell for
about $10-$20 and you give it a little spin and it spins for a minute or
two...but in the video, his APPEARS to spin the length of the video.

One end is supported, the other floats free on a magnetic bearing...if
this guy is for real, he might have arranged the magnets at a 45 degree
angle like Howard Johnson and others who have claimed a self-running effect.

The trick of course it the lock at about 340 degrees or so where it
needs a kick to jump it back into the propulsive field. Because this
spindle wobbles (bobbles) when spinning it might be self-resetting, what
Bearden calls 'regauging'.

It is also what Hamel calls the 'Butterly Effect' where magnets wobble
enough to recock themselves into the propelling field. See;

http://www.keelynet.com/ohsako/ohsako.htm

on magnetic anomalies which include the TOMI and Ohsako devices.

Troy Reed used something similar many years ago but with spring loaded
clicker inkpens that recocked as the machine turned. In the old videos
you can hear this thing clicking like crazy for each pen on the huge wheel.

The elliptical magnet in the first video is novel because of the shape
letting it recock...everyone know that weebles wobble but they won't
fall down...well some people claim to have discovered a geometry which
rights itself under any condition...I looked but couldn't find the
reference...oh well, just buy a weeble and you got it.

--
 
------=_Part_35735_19996633.1176709554770-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 19:40:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3H2eK3f013257; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:40:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3H2eFkk013216; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:40:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:40:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:38:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2sYww.A.ZOD.OODJGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74379 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > At 03:22 PM 4/16/2007, you wrote: >> Can you please post or summarise this story because viewing >> it requires a subscription. >> >> Harry > > http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140065apr16,0,1831279.story?col > l=chi-business-hed > > INSIDE TECHNOLOGY > Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power > > By Jon Van > Published April 16, 2007 Thanks, but I meant the story from March 30. Or was it posted previously? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 19:42:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3H2gItt021166; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:42:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3H2gHVV021150; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:42:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:42:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bBXb/LCZVF+3/r2kB+r9vaF1Aekt2NpAFlwstDdAdMUEMOxmVV8U++r+tfkRxYWMruGIhQSd7XiBsqCsbZkIlRv+PaEkultm3ZLQoCAP1JFS5OlMN0RFw+OXqpanBfdCJKNW4eMTFSjLZhvaLH4Qa4fFpNbwHs2E+34oJ0yCrrQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=eH+zw1zxad6iQJ2cNuozUhvtEZ1XSHsikxe43DV1GmqDgRqFnXzWkxDf92rp3v3WRpmunIkHc7z8qy/BAQosT5yJJvSzZgg1ug7zmy/zwL6GG5Nlm/6O+bD6qZbd4mRnsFUo5VRwCIr7TOO5zCasx3G88/U5BtWPQF0phTfjpk4= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704161942g1f017e69u249d58e0b0c257fb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 05:42:14 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage In-Reply-To: <63A7534C-BAA4-4C2D-931F-3540EEB15183@newalexandria.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_55969_2028039.1176777734443" References: <004101c76d3f$53f52350$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> <4603E933.2060400@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10703231022i39b8be50k45a6ed27ce0bb6cf@mail.gmail.com> <538fa8f10704161348u27f1c503yd75dd81c809b2bc0@mail.gmail.com> <63A7534C-BAA4-4C2D-931F-3540EEB15183@newalexandria.org> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74380 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_55969_2028039.1176777734443 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline have you tried getting in touch with klaus rauber of http://www.implosion-ev.de/ ? also, have you tried calling the PKS? it is open on wednesdays i believe 10am to 2pm (hmm, gmt+1? not sure) the info might be at http://www.viktorschauberger.at/ regarding klaus rauber - i have a german documentary where he shows new pictures that look almost similar to the p=F6pel report pictures in callum coats "energy evolution" book (which has the p=F6pel report as an addition right at the end). but it would be great to hook up the original tests, jus= t to .. well, have them. if i get to IWONE3 in h=F6=F6r,malm=F6,sweden, i could try and ask klaus r= auber and curt hallberg - however thats in august, and im still not 100% if i can afford to go to it. On 17/04/07, Zachary Jones wrote: > > On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Esa Ruoho wrote: > > anyone had any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel report= ? > (P=F6pel, Franz Rapport Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelr= ohren > mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, Institut f=FCr > Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952. > > I spent a while, and pestered many a librarian - some of whom for which > English was not their first language. Two people searching the universit= y > of Stuttgart could not find it, and offered that it may have been lost. > I've wondered if Callum Coats has an original, though I seem to remember > discussing the matter with Curt Halberg and he offering that a copy wasn'= t > in Coat's possession. I never received word from Jorg Schauberger. I wo= uld > try him if I were to again be looking. > Sadly, it didn't seem too unreasonable that a library would loose a copy > of an old technical report, unpublished by formal journals. Still, it wo= uld > be a notable loss in this case. Someone today will have to reproduce the > work! > Zak > ------=_Part_55969_2028039.1176777734443 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline have you tried getting in touch with klaus rauber of http://www.implosion-ev.de/ ?  also, have you tr= ied calling the PKS? it is open on wednesdays i believe 10am to 2pm (hmm, g= mt+1? not sure)  the info might be at=20 http://www.viktorschauberger.a= t/

regarding klaus rauber - i have a german documentary where he= shows new pictures that look almost similar to the p=F6pel report pictures= in callum coats "energy evolution" book (which has  the p= =F6pel report as an addition right at the end). but it would be great to ho= ok up the original tests, just to .. well, have them.
if i get to IWONE3  in h=F6=F6r,malm=F6,sweden, i could try and as= k klaus rauber and curt hallberg - however thats in august, and im still no= t 100% if i can afford to go to it.

On 17/04/07,=20 Zachary Jones <zak@newalexandria.org> wrote:
On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Esa Ruoho wrote:
anyone had any luck hunting down a d= i gital version of the p=F6pel report?
(P=F6pel= , Franz=20 Rapport  Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelrohren mit= verschniedener Wandform International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesund= heitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952.=20
I spent a while, and pestered many a librarian - so= me of whom for which English was not their first language.  Two people= searching the university of Stuttgart could not find it, and offered that = it may have been lost.  I've wondered if Callum Coats has an origi= nal, though I seem to remember discussing the matter with Curt Halberg and = he offering that a copy wasn't in Coat's possession.  I never = received word from Jorg Schauberger.  I would try him if I were to aga= in be looking.
Sadly, it didn't seem too unreasonable that a library wo= uld loose a copy of an old technical report, unpublished by formal journals= .  Still, it would be a notable loss in this case.  Someone today= will have to reproduce the work!
Zak
------=_Part_55969_2028039.1176777734443-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 19:50:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3H2o62a017675; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:50:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3H2gLhq014417; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:42:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:42:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:40:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74381 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What gives? Harry Terry Blanton wrote: > Naaa, the earth sucks. > > On 4/16/07, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> I happen to think gravity is more like a rush rather than like >> a push or a pull. >> >> Harry >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 21:23:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3H4NgP9032264; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:23:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3H4Ne4E032246; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:23:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:23:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:28:43 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_807967125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <63Gv3.A.o3H.LvEJGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74382 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune Status: O X-Status: --=====================_807967125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Thanks, but I meant the story from March 30. >Or was it posted previously? > >Harry Loyal group chases cold-fusion dream Once touted as source of unlimited energy, cold fusion generates little interest today By Jon Van Tribune staff reporter Published March 30, 2007 Unlimited energy brewed in a bottle sparked a worldwide sensation nearly 18 years ago. Promises that cold fusion would power the planet, however, were shot down in little more than a month. On Thursday, researchers who continue to believe in cold fusion drew fewer than a dozen spectators to Chicago for the national meeting of the American Chemical Society. Still, the dream believers remain undeterred. "I don't know that my efforts have been dismissed," said George Miley, director of the fusion studies lab at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. "They've just been ignored." Miley, who does research mostly in mainstream high-temperature fusion, spends his free time doing cold-fusion experiments, and his results have convinced him that limitless power is possible, although he said it will take much more research to obtain. The first step will require regaining attention from a scientific community and a general populace that dismissed the cold-fusion notion almost as soon as they heard about it. But overcoming its past may be too big a hurdle for cold fusion. "These are mostly the same guys who jumped on board 18 years ago," said Robert Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland who wrote "Voodoo Science," a book about pseudoscience. "To my knowledge, they haven't convinced a single soul outside their own community. "These guys aren't bad guys. They're just wrong, as far as I can tell." Cold fusion started 18 years ago when Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, researchers working at the University of Utah, held a press conference to announce that a new power source was just around the corner to save the Earth from pollution and high energy bills. The Wall Street Journal's front-page story gave the claims credibility, and within a week cold fusion landed on the covers of Time, Newsweek and BusinessWeek. A standing ovation greeted Pons and Fleischmann when they attended the 1989 American Chemical Society meeting. But most scientists who tried to replicate the Pons/Fleischmann findings found they couldn't, and the pair soon admitted some mistakes. They continued to insist that their experiments with deuterium, a form of hydrogen found in seawater, and palladium produced more energy than the electricity fed into the apparatus to make it work. This indicated that some deuterium atoms were fusing with each other at room temperature, releasing tremendous energy, they said. Widespread criticism caused them to retreat from promises of vast commercially available power. Along with cold fusion, they faded from public view. But for a hard core of scientists around the world, as well as any number of patent lawyers and hopeful investors, cold fusion remained intriguing. As he surveyed the mostly empty chairs in a meeting room Thursday at McCormick Place, Melvin Miles, a colleague of Fleischmann's, lamented that "not many people are here today because most people thought this was proven wrong years ago." Because Fleischmann, who lives in the United Kingdom, is 80 years old and averse to travel, Miles presented Fleischmann's latest results that still attempt to refute criticisms leveled at work done 18 years ago. Other presenters have moved beyond the original Pons/Fleischmann experiments. Miley provided results from Urbana, where he used detectors to document that charged particles are emitted from cold-fusion experiments, a sign of nuclear activity. Others presented similar evidence. Miley said his results have been accepted for publication in a mainstream science publication, the Journal of Fusion Energy; he hopes critics will come forward to dispute his results. "No one argues about it," he said. "They think it's too absurd. I've been convinced for some while that cold fusion is real. I want to find how to do something useful with it." Difficulties facing cold-fusion advocates illustrate just how messy and human the scientific process can be, said Bernard Beck, a Northwestern University emeritus sociologist. "Science is very tricky compared to all other ways to figure out the world," said Beck. "It prides itself on being open to being corrected. It's not reactionary or obsessive. That's a wonderful promise, but because science is such a huge institution, it cannot get anywhere unless people are in some agreement. "That tends to make things conservative by its nature." So, like anyone else, scientists mostly reject radical new ideas, but don't close the door completely. Hence, the cold-fusion folks got a daylong symposium at the chemical society meeting. "In other traditions," said Beck, "the people in charge might say go get these guys and burn 'em at the stake. In science, they just get ignored." --=====================_807967125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks, but I meant the story from March 30.
Or was it posted previously?

Harry

        


Loyal group chases cold-fusion dream
Once touted as source of unlimited energy, cold fusion generates little interest today

By Jon Van
Tribune staff reporter
Published March 30, 2007

Unlimited energy brewed in a bottle sparked a worldwide sensation nearly 18 years ago. Promises that cold fusion would power the planet, however, were shot down in little more than a month.

On Thursday, researchers who continue to believe in cold fusion drew fewer than a dozen spectators to Chicago for the national meeting of the American Chemical Society.

Still, the dream believers remain undeterred.

"I don't know that my efforts have been dismissed," said George Miley, director of the fusion studies lab at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. "They've just been ignored."

Miley, who does research mostly in mainstream high-temperature fusion, spends his free time doing cold-fusion experiments, and his results have convinced him that limitless power is possible, although he said it will take much more research to obtain.

The first step will require regaining attention from a scientific community and a general populace that dismissed the cold-fusion notion almost as soon as they heard about it. But overcoming its past may be too big a hurdle for cold fusion.

"These are mostly the same guys who jumped on board 18 years ago," said Robert Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland who wrote "Voodoo Science," a book about pseudoscience. "To my knowledge, they haven't convinced a single soul outside their own community.

"These guys aren't bad guys. They're just wrong, as far as I can tell."

Cold fusion started 18 years ago when Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, researchers working at the University of Utah, held a press conference to announce that a new power source was just around the corner to save the Earth from pollution and high energy bills.

The Wall Street Journal's front-page story gave the claims credibility, and within a week cold fusion landed on the covers of Time, Newsweek and BusinessWeek. A standing ovation greeted Pons and Fleischmann when they attended the 1989 American Chemical Society meeting.

But most scientists who tried to replicate the Pons/Fleischmann findings found they couldn't, and the pair soon admitted some mistakes.

They continued to insist that their experiments with deuterium, a form of hydrogen found in seawater, and palladium produced more energy than the electricity fed into the apparatus to make it work. This indicated that some deuterium atoms were fusing with each other at room temperature, releasing tremendous energy, they said.

Widespread criticism caused them to retreat from promises of vast commercially available power. Along with cold fusion, they faded from public view.

But for a hard core of scientists around the world, as well as any number of patent lawyers and hopeful investors, cold fusion remained intriguing.

As he surveyed the mostly empty chairs in a meeting room Thursday at McCormick Place, Melvin Miles, a colleague of Fleischmann's, lamented that "not many people are here today because most people thought this was proven wrong years ago."

Because Fleischmann, who lives in the United Kingdom, is 80 years old and averse to travel, Miles presented Fleischmann's latest results that still attempt to refute criticisms leveled at work done 18 years ago. Other presenters have moved beyond the original Pons/Fleischmann experiments.

Miley provided results from Urbana, where he used detectors to document that charged particles are emitted from cold-fusion experiments, a sign of nuclear activity. Others presented similar evidence.

Miley said his results have been accepted for publication in a mainstream science publication, the Journal of Fusion Energy; he hopes critics will come forward to dispute his results.

"No one argues about it," he said. "They think it's too absurd. I've been convinced for some while that cold fusion is real. I want to find how to do something useful with it."

Difficulties facing cold-fusion advocates illustrate just how messy and human the scientific process can be, said Bernard Beck, a Northwestern University emeritus sociologist.

"Science is very tricky compared to all other ways to figure out the world," said Beck. "It prides itself on being open to being corrected. It's not reactionary or obsessive. That's a wonderful promise, but because science is such a huge institution, it cannot get anywhere unless people are in some agreement.

"That tends to make things conservative by its nature."

So, like anyone else, scientists mostly reject radical new ideas, but don't close the door completely. Hence, the cold-fusion folks got a daylong symposium at the chemical society meeting.

"In other traditions," said Beck, "the people in charge might say go get these guys and burn 'em at the stake. In science, they just get ignored."
--=====================_807967125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 16 22:50:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3H5oESu031950; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3H5oCne031932; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4624601A.1000403@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:50:18 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74383 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: >> Thanks, but I meant the story from March 30. >> > "These are mostly the same guys who jumped on board 18 years ago," > said Robert Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland > who wrote > > "These guys aren't bad guys. They're just wrong, as far as I can tell." > Leave it to Parksie! A venture capitalist is bringing a LENR powered cell to market, and he's still lying and dening. I'm glad that Robert doesn't regard me as bad because I think that he's evil. Or is he stupid? na, he's too smart to be that stupid. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 06:36:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HDaFWK032514; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:36:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HDaDfx032466; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:36:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:36:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:33:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C780CB.1EA191D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74385 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C780CB.1EA191D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The March 30,2007 report by Jon Van is revealing because it provides = insight to the thinking of people he quoted.=20 My suggestion... provoke the science community to continue verbalizing = their views. Get reporters like Jon Van to publish and write analysis of = their statements. Mainstream news media is yet to pick up on rebirth of = LENR. This ongoing drama has all the ingredients of a Dime Box Saloon = discussion that is going to become heated before the night is over. When = you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the bar ... = well.. as Jones said.. the law of unintended consequences.. hmmm. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C780CB.1EA191D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The March 30,2007 report by Jon Van = is revealing=20 because it provides insight to the thinking of  = people he=20 quoted.
 
My suggestion... provoke = the science=20 community to continue verbalizing their views. Get reporters like = Jon Van=20 to publish and write analysis of their statements. Mainstream news media = is yet=20 to pick up on rebirth of LENR.
 
This ongoing drama has all the = ingredients of a=20 Dime Box Saloon discussion that is going to become heated before the = night is=20 over. When you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the = bar ...=20 well.. as Jones said.. the law of unintended consequences.. = hmmm.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C780CB.1EA191D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 06:40:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HDe1eT023233; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:40:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HDaM1o019230; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:36:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:36:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZkAmBtMAOCeQxJ7WESwpcTZc36ZxhvybAR3J2I50v7aeS6mxOLNAmaBoSteQayQQVeymtDnae956PbLYWUkVAwOBmhmZDYflsoJyEnFLY6NMQKQbA9ijyVbn71ePKwMrb9yHLbkhhzoFqVxdXFjWsp7zxYwZtfRsQzEesuMIYPs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LeIP0pQB2xAQ4NqUx3BX1Qfvp9Zs5KH2JMXJ4CRVDvkPF+v0PqiP4j6XDaC1m6aSY+wuLCwi01tKVukIyWe+8HS1oZDQPZ7H56+zvjUFOSVjQmc+mEyXnqUZP57R+T6RHomgwUELPTmy3D+5rz/dJhHnn9xTVNiM3ga8GMZdkTk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:36:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74386 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The stars? On 4/16/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > What gives? > > Harry > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Naaa, the earth sucks. > > > > On 4/16/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > >> > >> I happen to think gravity is more like a rush rather than like > >> a push or a pull. > >> > >> Harry > >> > >> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 07:18:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HEIcXF021151; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:18:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HEIb8E021137; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:18:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:18:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ziaKO3j3M05dwwZGa94y0+jC4jNOI1XkJgwjwIkVT94/UD0bfefyZYO51kM9+tSa4/YzRSEOwcciR5viPsNbicahMyocW1guDMG33aItS0XPiMnTmlnEfIwKlhSKEu7XkKXdO4esDmZN0yBAvKtG/l+MrjmlNoZeTkmyBM2pCf4= ; X-YMail-OSG: Xj74SgwVM1l39RR7neCA3s6M95Qse8fc2HsmYSaKhQ0dmiWNnTJTUHFVSIY_kiPXdCIBvoWKUaOzFsfZ4czZkY3PVsKy_Q9LtkNyslzCUFJsfubPK1g- Message-ID: <4624D732.1070103@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:18:26 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9zgR7D.A.JKF.9cNJGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74387 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Water Fuel, pt. 153 Status: O X-Status: Subtitled: how many fish can we catch today? http://www.h2daily.com/news/water-replaces-gas-20070416-256-50.html Side Note: Under the "names that work" category, one must include writers named Chatterjee. Kinda like the proud Sandak named Hugh Bris. It may seem an uncommon name until you do a google search for Chatterjee and get 5 million hits. Anyway - back to a deep subject: water. If you read between the PR Chatter, so to speak, where the inventor - James D. Hunt sez: a short summary of the process is "hydrogen extraction from water via plasmatic induction." "By inducing a small amount of plasma into a water tank, we're able to extract hydrogen from the water." ... and then, as Vo's (and voyeurs alike) are wont-to-do, you think about the larger field of LENR for a moment, in this context of how to best convert whatever OU may materialize from a certain water plasma ... (although by definition almost, a nuclear reaction is not technically OU) ...then thoughts and heads may turn to that other LENR headline of recent years; that also being from a "name that works": "Mizuno" ('mizu' being a leaner Japanese word for water). Yes... feeling a bit puny today. Anyway -- is there any doubt that Mizuno's water plasma may fit like hand-in-glove into the OU "hunt" for water fuel (the "Hunt process," so to speak... Jones BTW - the Hawaiian word for water is "wai" and the Hawaiian word for wealth is "waiwai" ... which I think is rather precient. You might expect the similarity in a desert environment, but there is little which is more ubiquitous there than H2O, yet they did square it with the convept of wealth.... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 09:57:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HGviA6018225; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:57:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HGvgNH018208; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:57:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:57:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wqOXdiQCQSNVXwrltzRrN7my7OYqze36WYF37RR3B8nLs9nXsE3GMDVvx+pq5erEKlQwFb9ami/zSWZqviFlaNNuYBFvHgCouci4G7c6dOsM66IroPL6n4ipIECM6TdyvgcBaN20fqmNUIoySV6Vx0PQ8HlXptN48rgHEn+KA9U= ; X-YMail-OSG: oXvg7UEVM1kBAPGWOiBAC_bJLXd3SDedw0ZFlW7xXq85vb8J0L2X5cYzLHt1d42AnD_oeJfDqA-- Message-ID: <4624FC7A.1050301@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:57:30 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74388 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:A Magic Ox ? Status: O X-Status: Any way you axe the question, this particular magic Ox is unquestionably no "babe"... closer to a flash of lightning, perhaps... There are so-called magic numbers of protons and neutrons in nuclei. Elements in the periodic table which fit this criterion are particularly stable: The numbers are: 2,8,20,28,50,82 and 126 Atomic nuclei consisting of such magic number of nucleons, either of protons or neutrons or the combination of the two -- have a higher average binding energy per nucleon than one would expect based upon predictions from any of the semi-empirical mass-formula stability calculations, and they are significantly more stable against nuclear decay - by at least an order of magnitude (timewise) in most cases than are similar non-magic species. Pythagoras was right - there is magic in numbers. There is no element which can satisfy "triple stability" which would be that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all three magic. There are a few doubly stable elements: helium, oxygen, calcium. From a purely theoretical standpoint, then, one is led to wonder why element 28, which is Nickel, does not have a stable isotope: 56Ni or why nickel is not as common as iron (element 26), or why 54Fe is not the most common isotope of iron. It should be - on paper, since the 28 neutrons would be a favored magic number within the range of excess-neutrons that this particular 'slot' on the periodic table should have. In some asteroids, BTW, there is lots of nickel, occasionally more nickel than iron. And in some the isotope ratio is highly warped over what is found on earth. In fact all of these curiosities have an inter-related underlying rationale, leading to an eventual understanding of the role of Pythagorean-type 'magic'. In fact, in cosmology and in the supernova - 56 Ni is an important species - but not on earth. And one reason that there is so much iron wrt to nickel here goes back to that cosmic furnace situation, where 56Ni decays to iron -- since the nickel 'slot' requires a greater number of neutrons than protons for threshold stability. Do not confuse all of this nickel-slot talk with a nickelodeon even if it is only wastes 3 minutes of your time. The magic part is overhwhelmed, so to speak, by threshold slot parameters of the periodic table OK - Once it comes out of a strong gravity field, then - the 56Ni decays to iron (or cobalt) making iron the most abundant metal around. In the laboratory, 56Ni decays via electron capture with a 6-day half-life. Even so, this is a factor of 18 times longer life than a similar situation without the 'magic', such as 52Fe, for instance, which has a half-life in hours. All of this rambling is offered as a preamble to another speculation regarding oxygen, when in an intense arc, such that the result is a temporary "quark soup" situation, so to speak. This might help explain why lightning seems to be part of an energy anomaly, in some cases. ... or not. The following has just been dreampt up in the last few minutes, and you can now have the opportunity to vet it. Back to that point about no element which can satisfy "triple stability" which would be that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all three magic. There is only one possibility, in the entire panoply of elements which even comes close to potential short-term triple stability (even with inherent overall impossibility due to the 'slot' limitations) and which would be extremely transitory even if it were real (which is just a guess). And this scenario would be coming out of an intense arc discharge, like lightning (or the supernova). 8 protons, 20 neutrons and 28 nucleons works on paper. The 20 neutral particles, which are neutron-like, presents the situation which might include hydrinos, IF there is such a particle) giving a total nucleus of 28. Triple temporary stability even if the neutron imbalance is impossible to sustain. That is the proposed temporary species. This would be a (highly speculative) transitory nucleus which would surely have a lifetime of much less than one second, but being in the category where triple stability might be found in certain situations (i.e. an intense gravity field) this albeit short lifetime - could nevertheless be far longer than expected, and the resultant decay more intense than expected. ...or not ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 10:07:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HH6jFa025727; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:06:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HH6diM025648; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:06:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:06:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:06:46 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74389 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:implosion in water Status: RO X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: > This ongoing drama has all the ingredients of a Dime Box Saloon > discussion that is going to become heated before the night is over. > When you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the bar .. Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in German. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 10:43:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HHgoNr008274; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:42:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HHgl3J008213; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:42:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:42:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:41:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water In-reply-to: <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74390 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I love the aesthetics of the whirlpool. Perhaps we will see more whirlpools -- instead of fountains -- in or around public buildings. Harry thomas malloy wrote: > Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this > page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in > German. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 11:10:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HIA7oB031455; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:10:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HI0u39026139; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:00:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:00:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NVfIdHWlN2LG/1U7eIJ9hvmWNCKQEyZ2g2On0G+JxSGDTAesPg82QwA3z7RAw24a5zimKECvJ3vY+Uye2xoeCKT5RJYZIfCA+p78T4+2XKNvRvZ41McPR6ZmeIaRIW254/ii1mgL9Wl7MLtMGZVTkEAX/+rhgE9FIxh2Q9+qJFw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aDmS8kcCTJdkLDTNmSA2ZUOVQRvR5E6L1SOtSGWddlqkjlOLRf7q3nQcEnzBZ/mTQc9Acias7DmaQ6Ib4KyplwziOmqLe0py7D1Xw5jVYiFMowb+UxtxRwKuXN8jHX3gxbwY7UQko1hOkyHfndqWrgGFR0Jen+FqIxRjyxCLag8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:00:53 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:A Magic Ox ? In-Reply-To: <4624FC7A.1050301@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4624FC7A.1050301@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74391 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/17/07, Jones Beene wrote: > OK - Once it comes out of a strong gravity field, then - the 56Ni decays > to iron (or cobalt) making iron the most abundant metal around. Did I read it here or elsewhere that the reason for the abundance of Fe is that it is the end of elements which can fuse and the end of the fission of heavier elements? It's the crossover point. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 11:13:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HIDO0Q002867; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:13:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HIDM3i002814; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:13:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:13:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail2.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:13:17 -0500 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:A Magic Ox ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_c8c852a6b42e13412880e091422d2964" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070417181712.BA2703FA2A8@mail2.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74392 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_c8c852a6b42e13412880e091422d2964 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who might enjoy viewing a graphic representation of the combination of nucleons in all their varied isotopes see the following (segre) chart: http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/ another representation can be found at: http://www.meta-synthesis.com/webbook/33_segre/segre.html Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > > Any way you axe the question, this particular magic Ox is unquestionably > no "babe"... closer to a flash of lightning, perhaps... > > There are so-called magic numbers of protons and neutrons in nuclei. > Elements in the periodic table which fit this criterion are particularly > stable: The numbers are: > > 2,8,20,28,50,82 and 126 > > Atomic nuclei consisting of such magic number of nucleons, either of > protons or neutrons or the combination of the two -- have a higher > average binding energy per nucleon than one would expect based upon > predictions from any of the semi-empirical mass-formula stability > calculations, and they are significantly more stable against nuclear > decay - by at least an order of magnitude (timewise) in most cases than > are similar non-magic species. Pythagoras was right - there is magic in > numbers. > > There is no element which can satisfy "triple stability" which would be > that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all three magic. > > There are a few doubly stable elements: helium, oxygen, calcium. > > From a purely theoretical standpoint, then, one is led to wonder why > element 28, which is Nickel, does not have a stable isotope: 56Ni or why > nickel is not as common as iron (element 26), or why 54Fe is not the > most common isotope of iron. It should be - on paper, since the 28 > neutrons would be a favored magic number within the range of > excess-neutrons that this particular 'slot' on the periodic table should > have. > > In some asteroids, BTW, there is lots of nickel, occasionally more > nickel than iron. And in some the isotope ratio is highly warped over > what is found on earth. In fact all of these curiosities have an > inter-related underlying rationale, leading to an eventual understanding > of the role of Pythagorean-type 'magic'. > > In fact, in cosmology and in the supernova - 56 Ni is an important > species - but not on earth. And one reason that there is so much iron > wrt to nickel here goes back to that cosmic furnace situation, where > 56Ni decays to iron -- since the nickel 'slot' requires a greater number > of neutrons than protons for threshold stability. Do not confuse all of > this nickel-slot talk with a nickelodeon even if it is only wastes 3 > minutes of your time. The magic part is overhwhelmed, so to speak, by > threshold slot parameters of the periodic table > > OK - Once it comes out of a strong gravity field, then - the 56Ni decays > to iron (or cobalt) making iron the most abundant metal around. In the > laboratory, 56Ni decays via electron capture with a 6-day half-life. > Even so, this is a factor of 18 times longer life than a similar > situation without the 'magic', such as 52Fe, for instance, which has a > half-life in hours. > > All of this rambling is offered as a preamble to another speculation > regarding oxygen, when in an intense arc, such that the result is a > temporary "quark soup" situation, so to speak. This might help explain > why lightning seems to be part of an energy anomaly, in some cases. > > ... or not. The following has just been dreampt up in the last few > minutes, and you can now have the opportunity to vet it. > > Back to that point about no element which can satisfy "triple stability" > which would be that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all > three magic. There is only one possibility, in the entire panoply of > elements which even comes close to potential short-term triple stability > (even with inherent overall impossibility due to the 'slot' limitations) > and which would be extremely transitory even if it were real (which is > just a guess). And this scenario would be coming out of an intense arc > discharge, like lightning (or the supernova). > > 8 protons, 20 neutrons and 28 nucleons works on paper. The 20 neutral > particles, which are neutron-like, presents the situation which might > include hydrinos, IF there is such a particle) giving a total nucleus of > 28. Triple temporary stability even if the neutron imbalance is > impossible to sustain. > > That is the proposed temporary species. This would be a (highly > speculative) transitory nucleus which would surely have a lifetime of > much less than one second, but being in the category where triple > stability might be found in certain situations (i.e. an intense gravity > field) this albeit short lifetime - could nevertheless be far longer > than expected, and the resultant decay more intense than expected. > > ...or not ;-) > > Jones > > > > > > --- Steven Vincent Johnson svj@orionworks.com http://orionworks.com --=_c8c852a6b42e13412880e091422d2964 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those who might enjoy viewing a graphic representation of the combinati= on of nucleons in all their varied isotopes see the following (segre) chart= :

http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/

another representation can be found at:

http://www.meta-synthesis.com/webbook/33_segre/segre.html


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


>
>
> Any way you axe the question, this particular magic Ox is unquestionably =
> no "babe"... closer to a flash of lightning, perhaps...
>
> There are so-called magic numbers of protons and neutrons in nuclei.
> Elements in the periodic table which fit this criterion are particularly =
> stable: The numbers are:
>
> 2,8,20,28,50,82 and 126
>
> Atomic nuclei consisting of such magic number of nucleons, either of
> protons or neutrons or the combination of the two -- have a higher
> average binding energy per nucleon than one would expect based upon
> predictions from any of the semi-empirical mass-formula stability
> calculations, and they are significantly more stable against nuclear
> decay - by at least an order of magnitude (timewise) in most cases than <= br /> > are similar non-magic species. Pythagoras was right - there is magic in <= br /> > numbers.
>
> There is no element which can satisfy "triple stability" which would be <= br /> > that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all three magic.
>
> There are a few doubly stable elements: helium, oxygen, calcium.
>
> From a purely theoretical standpoint, then, one is led to wonder why > element 28, which is Nickel, does not have a stable isotope: 56Ni or why =
> nickel is not as common as iron (element 26), or why 54Fe is not the
> most common isotope of iron. It should be - on paper, since the 28
> neutrons would be a favored magic number within the range of
> excess-neutrons that this particular 'slot' on the periodic table should =
> have.
>
> In some asteroids, BTW, there is lots of nickel, occasionally more
> nickel than iron. And in some the isotope ratio is highly warped over > what is found on earth. In fact all of these curiosities have an
> inter-related underlying rationale, leading to an eventual understanding =
> of the role of Pythagorean-type 'magic'.
>
> In fact, in cosmology and in the supernova - 56 Ni is an important
> species - but not on earth. And one reason that there is so much iron > wrt to nickel here goes back to that cosmic furnace situation, where
> 56Ni decays to iron -- since the nickel 'slot' requires a greater number =
> of neutrons than protons for threshold stability. Do not confuse all of <= br /> > this nickel-slot talk with a nickelodeon even if it is only wastes 3 =
> minutes of your time. The magic part is overhwhelmed, so to speak, by > threshold slot parameters of the periodic table
>
> OK - Once it comes out of a strong gravity field, then - the 56Ni decays =
> to iron (or cobalt) making iron the most abundant metal around. In the > laboratory, 56Ni decays via electron capture with a 6-day half-life.
> Even so, this is a factor of 18 times longer life than a similar
> situation without the 'magic', such as 52Fe, for instance, which has a > half-life in hours.
>
> All of this rambling is offered as a preamble to another speculation
> regarding oxygen, when in an intense arc, such that the result is a
> temporary "quark soup" situation, so to speak. This might help explain > why lightning seems to be part of an energy anomaly, in some cases.
>
> ... or not. The following has just been dreampt up in the last few
> minutes, and you can now have the opportunity to vet it.
>
> Back to that point about no element which can satisfy "triple stability" =
> which would be that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all <= br /> > three magic. There is only one possibility, in the entire panoply of
> elements which even comes close to potential short-term triple stability =
> (even with inherent overall impossibility due to the 'slot' limitations) =
> and which would be extremely transitory even if it were real (which is > just a guess). And this scenario would be coming out of an intense arc > discharge, like lightning (or the supernova).
>
> 8 protons, 20 neutrons and 28 nucleons works on paper. The 20 neutral > particles, which are neutron-like, presents the situation which might > include hydrinos, IF there is such a particle) giving a total nucleus of =
> 28. Triple temporary stability even if the neutron imbalance is
> impossible to sustain.
>
> That is the proposed temporary species. This would be a (highly
> speculative) transitory nucleus which would surely have a lifetime of > much less than one second, but being in the category where triple
> stability might be found in certain situations (i.e. an intense gravity <= br /> > field) this albeit short lifetime - could nevertheless be far longer
> than expected, and the resultant decay more intense than expected.
>
> ...or not ;-)
>
> Jones
>
>
>
>
>
>
---
Steven Vincent Johnson
svj@orionworks.com
http://orionworks.com --=_c8c852a6b42e13412880e091422d2964-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 12:10:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HJAXBX025245; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:10:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HJAQOI025202; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:10:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:10:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070417121128.1028d978@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:15:24 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_861164953==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74393 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Brian on Board Status: O X-Status: --=====================_861164953==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed These guys have wonderful vision, but do they have the right stuff? Hmm. Apparently they don't know how to spell Martin and Tom's names correctly. Not a good sign. http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=5103894&Type=HTML Russ George and Dr. Tom Passell (formerly of the Nuclear Power Division of the Electric Power Research Institute of Palo Alto), have been involved with solid-state fusion research since 1989. Mr. George's successful experimental prototypes have been tested at the Los Alamos National Laboratory and Stanford Research Institute. D2Fusion's management team is supported by a Scientific Advisory Board that includes Dr. Brian Josephson (Cambridge Nobel Laureate), Dr. Martin Fleischman (one of the two original proponents of cold fusion in 1989) as well as Dr. Tom Clayton, Dr. Dale Tuggle and Dr. Malcolm Fowler, from the Los Alamos National Laboratory. --=====================_861164953==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" These guys have wonderful vision, but do they have the right stuff? Hmm. Apparently they don't know how to spell Martin and Tom's names correctly. Not a good sign.


http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=5103894&Type=HTML

Russ George and Dr. Tom Passell (formerly of the Nuclear Power Division of the Electric Power Research Institute of Palo Alto), have been involved with solid-state fusion research since 1989. Mr. George’s successful experimental prototypes have been tested at the Los Alamos National Laboratory and Stanford Research Institute. D2Fusion’s management team is supported by a Scientific Advisory Board that includes Dr. Brian Josephson (Cambridge Nobel Laureate), Dr. Martin Fleischman (one of the two original proponents of cold fusion in 1989) as well as Dr. Tom Clayton, Dr. Dale Tuggle and Dr. Malcolm Fowler, from the Los Alamos National Laboratory.


--=====================_861164953==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 15:05:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3HM4xRe027824; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:04:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3HM4uwR027809; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:04:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:04:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070417180252.03607168@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:04:54 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74394 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Imus attacks and cold fusion Status: O X-Status: Regarding the Imus attack against a college basketball team . . . You may think there is no connection to cold fusion, but there is. Here is a message I sent to a blogger: This is a big deal to the victims because they are a small group of identifiable people. It is one thing for a "shock jock" to insult a whole race of people; it is quite another to insult 10 specific young women in college. As one of the women said, 'what if people believe this about me?' The part about having families means: How would you feel if someone on national radio called your daughter and nine of her friends 'whores'? I expect those who say this does not matter have never been the objects of a personal attack in the mass media. They do not know how it feels to watch helplessly while a powerful person drags your reputation through the mud. As it happens, I do know. I work as a volunteer librarian for retired professors who do cold fusion physics. These include some distinguished people, such two Nobel laureates, the retired heads of the French AEC and the Indian AEC, and so on. They (and I) have been attacked and ridiculed by name, in national newspapers and magazines, hundreds of times. We are powerless to respond. For example, the Science Policy Administrator of the American Physical Society wrote in the New Scientist magazine: "Sometimes the faithful don't completely turn off their reason. They become captive to a fantasy they hear in one ear, but listen for science with the other ear. So begins a deterioration that dims the wits but leaves a zealous heart beating - the result is a cult of fervent halfwits. Some of them believe the Universe is only 6000 years old. Some sing praises to satellites. Some claim to fuse hydrogen in a jar. Cloistered in southern France are the cold fusion team of Martin Fleischman and B. Stanley Pons. While every result and conclusion they publish meets with overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary, they resolutely pursue their illusion of fusing hydrogen in a mason jar. . . . And a few scientists, captivated by the team's fantasy and exile, pursue cold fusion with Branch Davidian intensity." Such ad hominem attacks repeated over 18 years will hurt any scientist's morale, even a Nobel laureate's. It is impossible for me to imagine how black people must feel when they and their community have been subjected to such attacks for 400 years. It is even worse for them because they have done nothing, and they can do nothing to escape the attacks. The cold fusion scientists brought this upon themselves: they did research and published papers which they knew would invite attacks. A scientist can always retract, whereas a black person cannot stop being black. So anytime black people manage to shut up someone like Imus, I say kudos. I wish they would silence the "rap artists" and other black people who say even worse things. Jed Rothwell Librarian, LENR-CANR.org From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 17:45:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3I0ilVp004586; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:44:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3I0ij3o004570; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:44:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:44:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:42:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74395 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > > Loyal group chases cold-fusion dream > Once touted as source of unlimited energy, cold fusion generates little > interest today > > By Jon Van > Tribune staff reporter > Published March 30, 2007 > > > "In other traditions," said Beck, "the people in charge might say go get these > guys and burn 'em at the stake. In science, they just get ignored." > Experiencing indifference is very frustrating but being ignored is even worse. The seeds of persecution are sown when individuals or groups are ignored, because to ignore means to _consciously_ shun. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 00:19:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3H7JTWe009640; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:19:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3H7JR52009628; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:19:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:19:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=dlDHfP3P6xxagh+Df+8CRJZPn0xFbTxSLrC0A8e+yIGSx4C5JMhbagnbgylGb/3GJP69r0CllGZ+EvQzIdARCiNGOmdxS0+GKx9mdg6fFFdK4H9SUBmykAyGHWQT7iZQdLGK1cXfXVxadI4ck4XOa5yJ3T87x31oUhAVacIGhrY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=cmSbVQqDkg+FwX4ibOcZJG4I9wOvfQV4rXiVyYtz4118Z+pn6gMfxZ4kf3Q7nREs8IrEgOkcS+AeTWb/y/BQLQ9yEjys0g20whnMl5wI3950vlcpDjtxrFA30ZV07O1ocwOtuRTpE2/9UuBly8U1kxdXJhoCc0b/kTvuJLvEptM= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704170019macee20cteb747df6ceb3cca0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:19:25 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, viktorschaubergergroup@yahoogroups.com, ViktorSchauberger@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_59154_8982452.1176794365092" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74384 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:super-fast water flow in pipes X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_59154_8982452.1176794365092 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline -- 04/17/07 - Super Fast water flow in Pipes [image: KeelyNet]Scientists at the University of Kentucky have built tiny pipes that move water 10,000 times as fast as the conventional laws of flui= d flow allow. Mimicking for the first time the seamless way fluids progress through our cells. They've also found a way to control which molecules can pass through the pipes, a discovery that could yield safer, more efficient skin patches to deliver medicine into the body. The pipes are made of carbo= n nanotubes, thin sheets of graphite rolled into cylinders just seven billionths of a meter in diameter. The scientists poured a polymer between them to create a fine membrane that can embed 65 billion pipes per square inch. Lead researcher Bruce Hinds attributes the tremendous speed of the water flow (3.3 feet a second) to the nearly friction-free carbon nanotube walls. To keep out unwanted molecules, Hinds placed chemical receptors at the entrances to each tube, so that only those proteins that match the receptors are allowed passage. =97 Gregory Mone ------=_Part_59154_8982452.1176794365092 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline


--

04/17/07 - Super Fast = water flow in Pipes
Scientists at the University of Kentucky have built tiny pipes that move water 10,000 times as fast as the conventional laws of fluid flow allow. Mimicking for the first time the seamless way fluids progress through our cells. They've also found a way to control which molecules can pass through the pipes, a discovery that could yield safer, more efficient skin patches to deliver medicine into the body. The pipes are made of carbon nanotubes, thin sheets of graphite rolled into cylinders just seven billionths of a meter in diameter. The scientists poured a polymer between them to create a fine membrane that can embed 65 billion pipes per square inch. Lead researcher Bruce Hinds attributes the tremendous speed of the water flow (3.3 feet a second) to the nearly friction-free carbon nanotube walls. To keep out unwanted molecules, Hinds placed chemical receptors at the entrances to each tube, so that only those proteins that match the receptors are allowed passage. =97 Gregory Mone

------=_Part_59154_8982452.1176794365092-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 20:28:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3I3S6Na028854; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:28:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3I3S4CB028807; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:28:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:28:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Water Fuel, pt. 153 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:28:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7t3b23p4di4lsvd17u4ufotm1i2d062gtb@4ax.com> References: <4624D732.1070103@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4624D732.1070103@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.7.219] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 18 Apr 2007 03:28:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74396 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:18:26 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Subtitled: how many fish can we catch today? > >http://www.h2daily.com/news/water-replaces-gas-20070416-256-50.html > I suspect this was the original article: http://www.register-mail.com/stories/041507/BIZ_BCTHB3AM.GID.shtml (It's also easier to read). Reading between the lines, it looks like Santilli's Magnegas (see also http://www.magnegas.com/). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 21:42:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3I4gHQO031576; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:42:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3I4gF27031561; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:42:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:42:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ps/MD8sgbkaymVgguZ0FKp2RYeAi7AP4kdQ25frAZXISJq6DV+PZ9DWonmo/ytgB+MAYdcGMlpgg4rkIfhpfnRS4yjx39KtMeHdnZl29wGFqsvy+nC4cZw9CmquQ50fBTn3RChCZ5gmCrz35D/X6wLrF/gf6ibPWqwyfeK/edjo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=HKd5wVUhWUY39j/ZhA4cKgrjEARkT6qV2jnbB9DAGdvTRhUarbIoAQg8Eaytv9R3UwPvAI+VO5STlLv3BCmatuZwK64ZqOa9LLXqXX5ER9Dzvo96NZ+IG/7uKUOGsujJKJ5yqCztZnaYomFYYXjsDU1TRI2P255YJ1neonYmLgE= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704172142l13546fd5i50cd4c16ab994c3c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:42:14 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water In-Reply-To: <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_80490_19046812.1176871334224" References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74397 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_80490_19046812.1176871334224 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline < http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.implosion-ev.de%2Fhtml%2Fdies___das.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=fi&ie=UTF8> enjoy.. On 17/04/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > R.C.Macaulay wrote: > > > This ongoing drama has all the ingredients of a Dime Box Saloon > > discussion that is going to become heated before the night is over. > > When you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the bar .. > > Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this > page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in > German. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > -- $B!g(B ------=_Part_80490_19046812.1176871334224 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline < http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.implosion-ev.de%2Fhtml%2Fdies___das.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=fi&ie=UTF8 >

enjoy..


On 17/04/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
R.C.Macaulay wrote:

> This ongoing drama has all the ingredients of a Dime Box Saloon
> discussion that is going to become heated before the night is over.
> When you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the bar ..

Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this
page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in
German.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---




--
$B!g(B ------=_Part_80490_19046812.1176871334224-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 17 21:43:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3I4goTu015792; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:42:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3I4gnNl015779; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:42:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:42:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=sK8jmeZR/DjBlqTNAcPbOJ18he41cqG6UHa0xei+OMI5W1NPKOmKWBVPQ+TLTf/hzl6xUyva3ez/JcXseDgRBOHseC/MLLbHvV7gQvBkk3B6ddalcCILnAM0aWvZR//Zb++LCXWuEP0fi4hehN7Rja/zHWIUpzbreDrj32SM5Ys= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=BnnbqT1EdKyh6kw4dJjYfXRtrb698q3inztreAWjb7kzfyop7FJasDHXdQPZ16I4HFzKXOiZan6ODlw3E1KrA6lHdNEszStEewNa3uy37SpPU4onpFp4Px3svdosLD52ofyRMaocFImWVSzxAlWgK92frV4D0LvHpPpIVOpYAbM= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704172142r5a8f5c31l54718153b910147@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:42:46 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_80494_16102772.1176871366217" References: <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74398 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_80494_16102772.1176871366217 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline well, theres always http://www.williampye.com/ with his vortex/whirlpool-influenced watersculptures, which are quite aesthetically pleasing :) On 17/04/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > I love the aesthetics of the whirlpool. > > Perhaps we will see more whirlpools -- instead of fountains -- in > or around public buildings. > > Harry > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > > Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this > > page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in > > German. > > -- $B!g(B ------=_Part_80494_16102772.1176871366217 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline well, theres always http://www.williampye.com/ with his vortex/whirlpool-influenced watersculptures, which are quite aesthetically pleasing :)

On 17/04/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:

I love the aesthetics of the whirlpool.

Perhaps we will see more whirlpools -- instead of fountains -- in
or around public buildings.

Harry



thomas malloy wrote:


> Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this
> page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in
> German.




--
$B!g(B ------=_Part_80494_16102772.1176871366217-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 09:47:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3IGla8K022784; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:47:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3IGlXxR022760; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:47:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:47:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:04:41 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74399 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Prius Can't Pass the Test Status: O X-Status: The GA emissions test that is: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/16/prius-cant-pass-georgia-emissions-test/ This is really funny! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 09:52:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3IGqSuj005981; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:52:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3IGqRKg005967; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:52:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:52:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c781b5$5a1640e0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10704172142l13546fd5i50cd4c16ab994c3c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:30:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C7818B.70F57440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74400 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C7818B.70F57440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy Esa, The most interesting part of the link is the attention and interest = shown by the Germans for VS work and the amount of effort directed = toward adapting the ideas to applications. Nobody seems to be hiding = technical advances in implosion technology. Nobody is ridiculing and = trashing the work. http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html The same is not true of LENR where lines and swords drawn. err.. ummm.. = machetes and beer bottles at the Dime Box saloon. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C7818B.70F57440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy Esa,
 
The most interesting part of the link = is the=20 attention and interest shown by the Germans for VS work and the amount = of effort=20 directed toward adapting the ideas to applications. Nobody seems to be = hiding=20 technical advances in implosion technology. Nobody is ridiculing and = trashing=20 the work.
 
 http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html
 
The same is not true of LENR where = lines and=20 swords drawn.  err.. ummm.. machetes and beer bottles at the Dime = Box=20 saloon.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C7818B.70F57440-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 10:37:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3IHbjRU004590; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:37:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3IHbiGc004580; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:37:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:37:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Z8S4veykIG1tHrnl2wvB7G8oEt6cCT39RVSoapT1XG5IK5lRuwq3fgsPbIa9ot/BDYxgLPEYc8yEvFeIrUB1Qihq/KATJjld45BENk5LwMlhFmXMF6j4gyEy70d1B6z1+84zpV0J2z7kjc4Lm14Df63FAF7IuEpzmE7Sf1coY1M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bg36wzjIyi32r2BM1X3WBFIAXk/yYBPRSWrwb2XbCcEv7YmhPk/NDbUjGT61ZCNrZcHdLaK2ApfMs9HGk5hqWeO4L0wzPeKiIowQjoWQ8glGl1FsfsvZEx/nD9Z4w98JUpQ/1epp19oAa1R/QqRtCTsxQF4DkC/i3zyWQirkzS4= Message-ID: <538fa8f10704181037l72719447x83737b63622bc78e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:37:38 +0300 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water In-Reply-To: <002201c781b5$5a1640e0$c905a8c0@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_56132_4358514.1176917858093" References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10704172142l13546fd5i50cd4c16ab994c3c@mail.gmail.com> <002201c781b5$5a1640e0$c905a8c0@xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74401 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_56132_4358514.1176917858093 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline erm.. www.implosion-ev.de is run by Klaus Rauber - who is the current person publishing the few-issues-a-year Implosion-magazine, which was originally set up by various people, and i believe Walter Schauberger was involved in the setting-up of the magazine. it has run up to over 150 issues, and is the main repository for Viktor's original writings, and shows various developments by other people, including the spiraling pipes and repulsine-tests.. in fact, i was very glad to note that Klaus finally took the time to do a website which has quite a bit of information -- even mentioning, offhandedly that the Klimator and the Repulsine also had a catalytic layer of various minerals - the mixture of which is not very known -- which some other people on VSG have dubbed the "Schauberger Cement" . implosion-ev.de for now seems to be the largest and the best archive of viktor schauberger related material -- and of course it would only be in the german language. http://www.frankgermano.com/ is another -- for more historical issues and for what frank d. germano has dug up. it is a really sad state of affairs that PAX Scientific are in no way interested in Coanda / Schauberger - and this stuff just doesnt proceed with the quickness that it could. the trashing of the work of VS is in very much other websites - skeptics/debunkers/ people looking for a good hoax to trample on.. not in the implosion/vortex-"scene", which implosion-ev.de is very much a part of. .. .. On 18/04/07, R.C.Macaulay wrote: > > Howdy Esa, > > The most interesting part of the link is the attention and interest shown > by the Germans for VS work and the amount of effort directed toward adapting > the ideas to applications. Nobody seems to be hiding technical advances in > implosion technology. Nobody is ridiculing and trashing the work. > > http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html > > The same is not true of LENR where lines and swords drawn. err.. ummm.. > machetes and beer bottles at the Dime Box saloon. > > Richard > -- $B!g(B ------=_Part_56132_4358514.1176917858093 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline erm.. www.implosion-ev.de  is run by Klaus Rauber - who is the current person publishing the  few-issues-a-year Implosion-magazine, which was originally set up by various people, and i believe Walter Schauberger was involved in the setting-up of the magazine. it has run up to over 150 issues, and is the main repository for Viktor's original writings, and shows various developments by other people, including the spiraling pipes and  repulsine-tests.. in fact, i was very glad to note that Klaus finally took the time to do a website which has quite a bit of information -- even mentioning, offhandedly that the Klimator and the Repulsine also had a catalytic layer of various minerals - the mixture of which is not very known -- which some other people on VSG have dubbed the "Schauberger Cement" .
implosion-ev.de for now seems to be the largest and the best archive of viktor schauberger related material -- and of course it would only be in the german language. http://www.frankgermano.com/ is another -- for more historical issues and for what frank d. germano has dug up.

it is a really sad  state of affairs that PAX Scientific are in no way interested in Coanda / Schauberger - and this stuff just doesnt proceed with the quickness that it could.

the trashing of the work of VS is in very much other websites - skeptics/debunkers/ people looking for a good hoax to trample on..  not in the implosion/vortex-"scene", which implosion-ev.de is very much a part of. .. ..


On 18/04/07, R.C.Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:
Howdy Esa,
 
The most interesting part of the link is the attention and interest shown by the Germans for VS work and the amount of effort directed toward adapting the ideas to applications. Nobody seems to be hiding technical advances in implosion technology. Nobody is ridiculing and trashing the work.
 
 
The same is not true of LENR where lines and swords drawn.  err.. ummm.. machetes and beer bottles at the Dime Box saloon.
 
Richard



--
$B!g(B ------=_Part_56132_4358514.1176917858093-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 11:42:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3IIgG5a003477; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:42:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3IIgEZv003454; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:42:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:42:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=K2x4HQAvDYHeX42GeGiWVwJ767CyaceVlPpqLQpUnIvergmIT04/dCpR1A7DWc36ZA7V9joT9pYgvdCtcPcBZkfCnd8qzIkHAqjs5beG0ldwuCifidQQOth5SpVajYW3KLWavZ0r2Eu5lQchuTo7THJALlwDN+lvOTlvkamti60= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=fx8ndXIcqNDX1EKuoWNEmJgOtJ+XNj77Wt9hszm8B7C5a03Iq4dFwLKLXaTnfkp0WV4NapKG1bR3rAIfajFTGF3KbL3RFyWFSMpBLZ4D1QAIMb1WtCKc6qlvRbT0EPrV/tAhw/IZKJOf881HjJFAlK8qFRoeAyLOtnlWH2M02SI= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:42:11 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <34uSOD.A.y1.FamJGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74402 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven Status: O X-Status: By Gravity Probe B: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6561391.stm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 12:25:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3IJPbx0017523; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:25:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3IJPZsM017507; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:25:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:25:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070418151957.037cb460@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:25:31 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18330843==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74403 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:CF creeping into the corpus? Status: O X-Status: --=====================_18330843==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here is a link at Case Western Reserve University, Ernest B. Yeager Center for Electrochemical Sciences (http://electrochem.cwru.edu/). See: http://electrochem.case.edu/estir/inet.htm Electrochemical Science and Technology Information Resource (ESTIR) Scroll down to: Inorganic electrolytic processes Scroll a little more: Tritium, electrolytic production (E. Storms and C. Talcott, LBNL) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEelectrolyt.pdf - Jed --=====================_18330843==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Here is a link at Case Western Reserve University, Ernest B. Yeager Center for Electrochemical Sciences ( http://electrochem.cwru.edu/). See:

http://electrochem.case.edu/estir/inet.htm

Electrochemical Science and Technology Information Resource (ESTIR)

Scroll down to:

Inorganic electrolytic processes

Scroll a little more:

Tritium, electrolytic production (E. Storms and C. Talcott, LBNL) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEelectrolyt.pdf

- Jed
--=====================_18330843==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 12:41:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3IJfUSd022340; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:41:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3IJfSBc022316; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:41:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:41:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:39:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7ZACnD.A.icF.nRnJGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74404 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This "experiment" is really a comparison of two calculating machines. The results generated by a $500 million Machine B (consisting of the probe AND the Earth) are compared to the results generated by machine A (consisting of some PhD's, desktop computers and General Relativity). Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine it is not really a significant experiment. Harry Terry Blanton wrote: > By Gravity Probe B: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6561391.stm > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 13:04:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3IK4EGb032034; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:04:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3IK4CgZ032014; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:04:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:04:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <09b201c781f4$b8fed420$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:03:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74405 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine This is more or less the underlying assumption in physics isn't it? A = calculating machine whose algorithms we are trying to guess, and which = hopefully we will never master completely (or life would become very = boring). Michel (Thanks to Bill Beaty for inviting me back) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven > This "experiment" is really a comparison of two calculating machines. >=20 > The results generated by a $500 million Machine B (consisting of the = probe > AND the Earth) are compared to the results generated by machine A > (consisting of some PhD's, desktop computers and General Relativity). >=20 > Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine it is not really a > significant experiment. >=20 > Harry >=20 > Terry Blanton wrote: >=20 >> By Gravity Probe B: >>=20 >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6561391.stm >>=20 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 19:00:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3J20QHE006193; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:00:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3J20NW6006157; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:00:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:00:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003701c78226$86079340$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10704172142l13546fd5i50cd4c16ab994c3c@mail.gmail.com> <002201c781b5$5a1640e0$c905a8c0@xptower> <538fa8f10704181037l72719447x83737b63622bc78e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:00:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01C781FC.9CEB3370" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74406 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C781FC.9CEB3370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Esa wrote.. it is a really sad state of affairs that PAX Scientific are in no way = interested in Coanda / Schauberger - and this stuff just doesnt proceed = with the quickness that it could.=20 Howdy Esa, Pax is in business to patent ideas and liscense for profit, not = necessarily to make anything. They have done a good job of coming up = with some innovative prop designs. Another outfit in Australia was = developing a "Coanda Effect" prop but they bit the dust under too much = IPO money, fasr boats, faster cars and even faster women. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C781FC.9CEB3370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Esa wrote..
 
it is a really sad  state of affairs that PAX Scientific are = in no way=20 interested in Coanda / Schauberger - and this stuff just doesnt proceed = with the=20 quickness that it could.
 
Howdy Esa,
 
Pax is in business to patent ideas = and liscense=20 for profit, not necessarily to make anything. They have done a good job = of=20 coming up with some innovative prop designs. Another outfit in Australia = was=20 developing a "Coanda Effect" prop but they bit the dust under too much = IPO=20 money, fasr boats, faster cars and even faster women.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C781FC.9CEB3370-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 20:03:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3J33Xtd010060; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:03:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3J33VTG010042; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:03:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:03:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:01:43 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven In-reply-to: <09b201c781f4$b8fed420$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74407 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would call it a presumption. Harry Michel Jullian wrote: >> Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine > > This is more or less the underlying assumption in physics isn't it? A > calculating machine whose algorithms we are trying to guess, and which > hopefully we will never master completely (or life would become very boring). > > Michel (Thanks to Bill Beaty for inviting me back) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:39 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven > > >> This "experiment" is really a comparison of two calculating machines. >> >> The results generated by a $500 million Machine B (consisting of the probe >> AND the Earth) are compared to the results generated by machine A >> (consisting of some PhD's, desktop computers and General Relativity). >> >> Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine it is not really a >> significant experiment. >> >> Harry >> >> Terry Blanton wrote: >> >>> By Gravity Probe B: >>> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6561391.stm >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 18 23:51:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3J6pTGs010183; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:51:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3J6pRdU010168; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:51:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:51:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <20070417183002.935805D989@lori.logixcom.net> References: <167CBBA3-A204-4721-830D-1CAFAE9293EC@mtaonline.net> <200704160312.l3G3CIpL028389@nlpi029.sbcis.sbc.com> <5EC64C3C-3336-41DC-9323-20784783A01E@mtaonline.net> <20070417183002.935805D989@lori.logixcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <44ED9528-B713-4E56-959B-CD661883F854@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:51:25 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Resent-Message-ID: <5oo6EC.A.peC.uFxJGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74408 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:The Gravimagnetic Isomorphism Status: O X-Status: A consolidated Gravimagnetic Isomorphism article is now available, and much updated, though it will probably remain in draft stages for some time. http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/FullGravimag.pdf Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 19 06:01:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3JD1Z8D027152; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:01:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3JD1XGd027123; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:01:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:01:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:What 100 year energy plan? Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:01:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C78258.F912F2D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74409 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C78258.F912F2D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C78258.F912F2D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C78258.F912F2D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Interesting comment that the scientists attending the conference had = difficulty understanding some of the science presented. http://www.futurefoundation.org:80/=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C78258.F912F2D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
Interesting comment that the scientists attending the conference = had=20 difficulty understanding some of the science presented.
 
http://www.futurefoundation.org= :80/=20

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C78258.F912F2D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C78258.F912F2D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c78282$e1de4c70$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C78258.F912F2D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 19 10:17:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3JHGwgH012045; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:16:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3JHGiNG011833; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:16:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:16:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OJuNwmOul51CMSIv4E7x3Ue26hOdlBQK4ShXI18NeVdidH8DQmCgtcyBp7H4IKqBunK68hF4f5bw+rNKt/GA0FoRrydmlBgaNKCUVYGhMCDJsHMcf9NlXIoxJALKnA9xD/PM/Y0uIwLXr9uBAfxydgXRC38osZKcORi9hYYXbMI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LV8sfmiK2sgnH+RZMuUU7ZdPs+5UJe6wsTLb/FaFYVJQ53vddm2ZorE7mMNbpQlF1ueqs0bz6nhIxrCO90cMAaJIpUvrsjYql558sVEHKMrlZBX+Xj42xfN1MvFSNYogKn9JYoYZ8Qjzjbsdj+t8BixGLn+T4GRZ//NJL1nVlBY= Message-ID: <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:16:27 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6EsCbD.A.s4C.7P6JGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74410 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm surprised nobody at Vo picked up on climate scientist Brenda Ekwurzel, PhD. guest on Coast To Coast AM show last Saturday --> http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2007/04/14.html Leading climate science researcher Brenda Ekwurzel, PhD. announced the just recent overwhelming evidence from compiled data that the major cause of global warming is due to humanity. IMHO Brenda was impressive and scientific even though I didn't understand have the scientific terminology. Personally I think it's a combination of Sun and humanity, but I've always leaned toward humanity as being the major cause. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 19 11:48:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3JImJ4a010627; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:48:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3JImGKI010603; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:48:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:48:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tO9Cy4qftPqrNB6UBt7HUHu1g+o+vOkxv30/T0nOWSw3e+zCgG0aCUJxkCx4bRZtrkQ2ur1z0ptNPF8cSSD/mbtKcmjTQdoAi0VCOmDHcRQ4nI3qJUMyigfzvo2ufk+WiMIEp6Ft+j/2F3BOoHi5flHWBJHfCxvT4eQGdvpqIuQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: uBhNjO4VM1l7flFr8gEW.kpi5MipxaW0ctwUkWI_FhTRtE1iyL_QVMcNC2Qj28GEQUoF.Bq9sQ-- Message-ID: <4627B965.9060208@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:48:05 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74411 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Quantum Bogodynamics Status: RO X-Status: The term "bogon" is computer hacker jargon, where it is defined as the quantum of "bogosity", which itself is the property of being bogus. "Bogus" in this case refers as much to point of "origin" as to ultimate truthfulness. Many seemingly bogus facts turn out to be true. We can equate the value of certain information with its origin, however, at least for the purpose of convenience in the overload of the information age - and this saves a lot of time without too many oversights - usually. For instance, 98-99% of everything MIT sez about physics is either true, arguably true, or not-yet-disproven (or generally innocuous). When they blow it, they really blow it. Even the pompous turkey - Bob Park, hated as he may be in a few circles (LENR and alternative nutrition/ healing) is correct at least 90% of the time. As long as he is belittling someone else's scared cow, let him enjoy his soap-box and petty-pomposity. He does provide another "filter" of sorts ... yet we all need to have our own personal bogon filters, rather than rely on the park-people. On Vo, we probably have to filter out more bogosity than any other forum. Not ironically, alternative-energy attracts bogosity like an NIB magnet attracts iron. "Apparent Bogosity" however, is not all bad, in one sense. It may have uncredentialed origins, and it may chafe at the halter of mainstream control (and funding) but its 'rarity of factuality' is balanced firmly by the extreme value of the small truth which goes against the grain. That is the problem. In computerese - the "Bogon" is an informal name for an IP packet on the Internet which claims to be from the IP address space which is reserved, but not yet allocated by the net-cops (Internet Assigned Numbers Authority) to an accountable entity. IOW: the bogon is not credentialed. The areas of unallocated address space are called "bogon space" but that can be temporary, pending a $mall $um, and you emptor, so to speak - must constantly recheck for crednetials. There is a direct corollary to this part of information science and other pursuits. All science is ultimately "information science". Take so-called "free energy" for instance. 99% of everything which claims to be free energy is bogus, and its point of origin is usually a "tell." No problemo ... almost. We are all aware of certain "tells" like the lab was raided and the machine confiscated. Yet it is the < 1% which will eventually make any tiresome pursuit worthwhile, even wading through tons of huckster-smuckster - and this slim glimmer of ultimate value is why we tune into to forums like this one (and some of much higher average-bogosity). In the meantime, we must make do with heavy filtering, but the biggest problem overall is that lack of funding for the all important *1%* which is the uncredentialed information which is either true or pointing in that direction, but anti-mainstream. This hidden truth is the very spark and impetus of advancing civilization - the forbidden fruit - the one percent. If we must fund the whole bogus 99% it is still worthwhile, but this can only be done when we are not funding war. That is where the "gift economy" can come in. Free enterprise without a gift economy stinks. More on that later. After all, when you look for the only things in life that matter - it's all about information. Dis-information is not always malicious, and it is not always spam (or even an annoyance) and it is not always counter-productive. Consider it as humor, if you like. Like most everything in life - bogosity is a ultimately an ongoing balance of pluses and minuses. The "cutting edge" easily becomes the "bleeding edge" with a single misstep. As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say - "So it goes" Jones (if you were thinking Linda Ellerby, you should be reading more and watching less TV) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 19 14:33:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3JLXjD4025578; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:33:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3JLXhfS025562; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:33:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:33:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UDkr5MuR8cu/zM9huQxF7+a9yFhrwP86ptGeXK9T3m06SIRaDVKOdK/NazS35eiLULIL0QsUGpdG4Uhm/bCqjGgJEgC4laq9hgD2OQjIcsmLRmsKSCS4uKQDn6Tmx/UelMMVQySxLgNqH4eXwtiRZLx3uUUGzARgDhL6kejTPw0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=J6zSi4R/HuCHDDh1vWsl5O0LY87cCihB3nD9W4yJHHUPkDJvXwkVa+tgensdrHInwiGOjKjlso3hJw6usAwW5mloFowJ6THGysrYSoLSlOvc9Yn+Y6P4/IsYhUI7U47A/Eetss4gFw0wivYx7A1I6uXaB3A6KRfDHLyonPROyY0= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:33:42 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Quantum Bogodynamics In-Reply-To: <4627B965.9060208@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4627B965.9060208@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74412 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/19/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Like most everything in life - bogosity is a ultimately an ongoing > balance of pluses and minuses. The "cutting edge" easily becomes the > "bleeding edge" with a single misstep. You are on the MIS line, Jones. > As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say - "So it goes" "Let it be written." Terry PS The pyramid levers are being applied to the BFM non-shipment. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 19 14:48:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3JLmWa4006030; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:48:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3JLmUFm006016; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:48:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:48:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=avhxGbcCyp0feEsKD3YXjo/cJpXj5k0A9OOXoSX7vDQBRdDJQSxZHvSZZzW3FJRrwXOki2eARk2rc7YMMo3hTwGjoz/9XiDF56THPuV81b8YWSkHqpN/sibGNi8TcQAwuCOmBH2faba/J6erkMha3Jgtha+CPj1TF/DRgJ7VtQs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=C+wT1zfMKm99OTKpnnIZsaqvTAoCNzcxV6CBwNk43c6WgGi8V9DCmmdd2M/5l1Uux+Abb4pmNfl1v0UBxc2mg5TRoceTuPnlIr2lS685hA6hoHtLRgJ9xxcn9McvibJbjR0SSxnuI77P1U6yq6sdAQNtSMyBWd+KJcFuP8HaGmY= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:48:25 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Quantum Bogodynamics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4627B965.9060208@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74413 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/19/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > You are on the MIS line, Jones. Men in Stetsons. T From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 19 23:14:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3K6EmE9004784; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:14:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3K6EdHa004731; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:14:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:14:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:14:40 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74414 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote: > I'm surprised nobody at Vo picked up on climate scientist Brenda > Ekwurzel, PhD. guest on Coast To Coast AM show last Saturday -- One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused warming to talk about anything else. She ignored the issue of the Sun's increased irradiance. Also the observation that temperature increases, then atmospheric CO2 increases. Art Bell, true believer that he is, ate it all up. OTOH, C to C AM has Richard Hoagland as a guest. he makes the case that the increased irradiance and volcanic activity are both related to changes in something, the Aether perhaps? www.enterprisemission.com has quite a section on hyperdimensional physics. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 00:57:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3K7vhif006308; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:57:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3K7vbCR006275; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:57:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:57:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=oM3DSXvTP/J5QAOSo1mw8o/RY53oNXB6rF2lpTaYAoHnSbfYJQ7g4vIeAUFCzI0sJef4cL3o4vXVZ/m1/7ODCFJaLe6eOjHctSLVUJnyiCdUGR/NhfKscp2o7xpL/QM4NuBOhJkRs5WWx2J8533EYq83OaNhweMGFbgkLt8dNco= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=UMc8jYUSoq7dCd0kas0hdgAHzb/fqW97AUAEBGfNcDZo3EY4ROSIFSZH5ZhVuFfjhU+cjB3i5VmkV1P1GNn1ZQtjxnHt4njuko+Uow4n3FwnClVxuN+zODWJQwfSqG6jm5xns+hsG75pYlsja2TvkGi7bjfhmqUhFwwxVdoO0Cw= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 03:57:37 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_73021_21302276.1177055857938" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74415 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:just a thought Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_73021_21302276.1177055857938 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline - Dear vos., On reading the texts from Vo.... I offer a "slice" of text, below: NB: Comment will be inserted in text as [comment-note] Here we go.....---> ------------ http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=49911&page=9#Item_35 [Q.] Sounds promising - if HK made the visit he could at last state the conditions he observed the device under. He wouldn't have to state "it appears to work but I don't know how." [A.] The above tests would of course not address the issue of domain changes or heat interaction - but from a pure skeptics standpoint it does demo a technology, because as far as I know, no one has ever found a way to mechanically drain heat using magnets from the environment NB: Please read up on magnetic cooling from 1950 to present... AND Direct Energy Conversion texts.... or to mechanically make use of the domain energy of a magnet. But these questions take a long time to answer (hence the Jury) - at a minimum the position would be that something is happening - it would take a day!!!! (March 3, 2007) No time is required.... other than the reader do the ..or at least Some of the basic investigation... Hmm? Herma ------=_Part_73021_21302276.1177055857938 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
-
 Dear vos.,
On reading the texts from Vo.... I offer a "slice" of text, below:
 
 NB:  Comment will be inserted in text as [comment-note]
 
Here we go.....--->
 
------------
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=49911&page=9#Item_35

[Q.] Sounds promising - if HK made the visit he could at last state the conditions he observed the device under. He wouldn't have to state "it appears to work but I don't know how."

[A.] The above tests would of course not address the issue of domain changes or heat interaction - but from a pure skeptics standpoint it does demo a technology, because as far as I know, no one has ever found a way to mechanically drain heat using magnets from the environment
 
 
  NB:  Please read up on magnetic cooling from 1950 to present...
          AND  Direct Energy Conversion  texts....
 
 or to mechanically make use of the domain energy of a magnet. But these questions take a long time to answer (hence the Jury) - at a minimum the position would be that something is happening - it would take a day!!!!

(March 3, 2007)
 
   No time is required.... other than the reader do  the ..or at least Some of the basic 
investigation... Hmm?  
 
 
             Herma
------=_Part_73021_21302276.1177055857938-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 01:01:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3K80pZq007337; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:00:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3K80nOj007319; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:00:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:00:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=c+K2u9Ulex50VY7mrGrqfddQxZDKQPlkTxwUxCN2Tjx/it0lYbUNazm7NKQrRP6wAhRfAKDUbBwTDuJ9LWY2v3JeJ/VrNEkoj6pGBjZPL5XbtYL7LcAKK3QXXGEJzvNakgQEawK0wrADxa4qp5CB6xynn7MT4O6pnoq0KRGRk7c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=amAVFziBKzNbWPT5rLFiMt32dnf42cuofN62LiNttZT7l2GTJ4w0FTZpfIasUoaDurFN9RIar4rSagXxEfDs0+NpQZ79nHyAiUOjI1JkbyMiEWEy+ia93a9uex2LPoNxloS5DaOm8PVCiybZtH+z/RFKVRicBGNvRI8XL7biRVM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:00:46 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_73041_2701498.1177056046038" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74416 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Direct energy conversion Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_73041_2701498.1177056046038 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear vo, Read first.... THEN let us know what can and has been... PLEASE.... HMM??? Amazon.com: *Direct energy conversion* (Allyn and Bacon series in *..= . * Amazon.com: *Direct energy conversion* (Allyn and Bacon series in mechanica= l engineering and applied mechanics): Books: Stanley W *Angrist* by Stanley W *...* www.amazon.com/*conversion*-mechanical-engineering-applied-mechanics/dp/020= 5055818 - 93k - Cached- Similar pages 0205055818: *Direct Energy Conversion* - AbeBooks.com *Direct energy conversion* (Allyn and Bacon series in mechanical engineerin= g and applied mechanics) (ISBN: 0205055818) Stanley W *Angrist* *...* www.abebooks.com/sm-search-0205055818-*direct*-*energy*-*conversion*--is!02= 05055818.html - 49k - Cached- Similar pages Amazon.com: *Direct Energy Conversion* (Series in Mechanical *...* Amazon.com: *Direct Energy Conversion* (Series in Mechanical Engineering & Applied Mechanics): Books: Stanley W. *Angrist* by Stanley W. *Angrist*. www.amazon.com/*Conversion*-Mechanical-Engineering-Applied-Mechanics/dp/020= 5077587 - 97k - Cached- Similar pages 0205077587: *Direct Energy Conversion* - AbeBooks.com *Direct Energy Conversion* (Series in Mechanical Engineering & Applied Mechanics) (ISBN: 0205077587) Stanley W. *Angrist*. Bookseller: OwlsBooks * ...* www.abebooks.com/sm-search-0205077587-*direct*-*energy*-*conversion*--is!02= 05077587.html - 28k - Cached- Similar pages SCIENCE : *Energy* : *Direct energy conversion* books, find the lowest *..= . * *Direct Energy Conversion* : Fundamentals of Electric Power Production cove= r *Direct* *Energy Conversion* *...* *Direct Energy Conversion* by Stanley W. *Angrist* *...* www.allbookstores.com/Science/*Energy*/*Direct*_*Energy*_*Conversion*.html = - 29k - Cached- Similar pages Amazon.ca: *Direct Energy Conversion*: Books: Stanley W. *Angrist* Amazon.ca: *Direct Energy Conversion*: Books: Stanley W. *Angrist* by Stanley W. *Angrist*. www.amazon.ca/*Direct*-*Energy*-*Conversion*-Stanley-*Angrist*/dp/020507758= 7 - 44k - Cached- Similar pages Amazon.ca: *Direct energy conversion*: Books *Direct Energy Conversion* : Fundamentals of Electric Power Production *...= * *Direct Energy Conversion* by Stanley W. *Angrist* (Hardcover - May 1982). Out of stock *...* www.amazon.ca/s?ie=3DUTF8&index=3Dbooks-ca&field-keywords=3D*Direct*%20*ene= rgy*%20 *conversion*&page=3D1 - 91k - Cached- Similar pages AA Faculty: Reiner Decher, *Direct Energy Conversion* *Direct energy conversion* is concerned with the transformation of *energy*to electrical power *...* Works by *Angrist* (Ref. 1-8), Soo (Ref. 5-1), Sutton (Ref. *...* www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/decher/books/*direct*_*energy*_conv.html - 11= k - Cached- Similar pages AAE 536 Advanced *Energy Conversion* for Aerospace Systems *...* *Direct Energy Conversion*, *Angrist*, Allyn and Bacon, 1982. Note: These are out of print texts that will be available in the bookstore). *...* https://engineering.purdue.edu/AAE/Academics/Courses/Descriptions/AAE536 - 23k - Cached- Similar pages Best Book Buys - *Direct energy conversion* Books by Stanley W. *Angrist* Book, Allyn and Bacon (January 1982), Compare Prices = =B7 Add to Wish List. 2. *Direct Energy Conversion*: Fundamentals of Electric Power *...* www.bestwebbuys.com/Science-*Energy*-N_10037365-books.html - 41k - Cached- Similar pages ------=_Part_73041_2701498.1177056046038 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

   Dear vo,

 

   Read first.... THEN let us know what can and ha= s been...

 

    PLEASE....  HMM???

 

 

 

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------=_Part_73041_2701498.1177056046038-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 01:28:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3K8SUur019606; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:28:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3K8SO04019554; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:28:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:28:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e601c78325$dd6faaa0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:28:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74417 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It seems to me that whatever the causes of GW, if we want a remedy we = will have to take care of it. Jed mentioned orbiting parasols once, I then understood he was talking = about Earth orbits so I thought the area would have to be impractically = large, but he may have been thinking about Sun orbits which could lower = area requirements dramatically. But then some propulsion means would be = required to make up for the difference between solar gravity and = centrifugal force at that distance and speed (the smaller the orbit, the = smaller the natural orbiting period, so the parasol wouldn't stay = naturally aligned with the sun). I am wondering if a flotilla of solar sails couldn't be made to orbit = the sun at some point of the Sun-Earth line, with their mostly = sun-oriented reflecting surface acting both as a propulsion means, and = as a parasol. Does anybody know at which point of the Sun-Earth line a unit parasol = area would be most efficient? Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually = based. > Paul Lowrance wrote: >=20 >> I'm surprised nobody at Vo picked up on climate scientist Brenda=20 >> Ekwurzel, PhD. guest on Coast To Coast AM show last Saturday --=20 >=20 > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human = caused=20 > warming to talk about anything else. She ignored the issue of the = Sun's=20 > increased irradiance. Also the observation that temperature increases, = > then atmospheric CO2 increases. Art Bell, true believer that he is, = ate=20 > it all up. >=20 > OTOH, C to C AM has Richard Hoagland as a guest. he makes the case = that=20 > the increased irradiance and volcanic activity are both related to=20 > changes in something, the Aether perhaps? www.enterprisemission.com = has=20 > quite a section on hyperdimensional physics.=20 >=20 >=20 > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- = http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 03:50:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3KAnxB9029708; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 03:49:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3KAnvEs029693; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 03:49:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 03:49:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=alBpu30m36dBAeVRYKRHs3Xg9m5Z12W8Zw6WC3QmR/ji0Y2I91cg9Z/nLadtFfNgesaG2MY7xecQT+YYMtNz07y6EH+7ry/5IgFCVkiW5H4oYJi8SdY7pNtURBcX2PgFT0KwCgpCMsHcu4jcv1Kb9kaQ0XemwqniUY/cmx4IipY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=oeQSS6h1gm2sdonLq+ov+I8DI4UN3su9/70LKl3Z+p50AibKRc+qIRrbAK5LiVjq8CkFUO3Tw2ekufENsuXTLVsIwa6iWWhI7mwrNAnaLn/KFqENgXBiBDAjFD8IsNmvh/2manQ2ema48MmRl+cCtlPQxJDwoXCcpH+P9CC+r+Q= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:49:55 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Quantum Bogodynamics In-Reply-To: <4627B965.9060208@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_117211_8878781.1177066195832" References: <4627B965.9060208@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74418 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_117211_8878781.1177066195832 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with you that more attention should be paid, but I have a very different view as to the level of Bogosity. Indeed this annoys me as people discount things often with no reason besides it not fitting what they currently believe, please give me 20 instances of apparent Bogousness, and we'll see if we can hit on some to discuss. Don't pick all ones which are extremely bogus or already disproven, just a nice average mix. On 4/20/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > The term "bogon" is computer hacker jargon, where it is defined as the > quantum of "bogosity", which itself is the property of being bogus. > > "Bogus" in this case refers as much to point of "origin" as to ultimate > truthfulness. Many seemingly bogus facts turn out to be true. We can > equate the value of certain information with its origin, however, at > least for the purpose of convenience in the overload of the information > age - and this saves a lot of time without too many oversights - usually. > > For instance, 98-99% of everything MIT sez about physics is either true, > arguably true, or not-yet-disproven (or generally innocuous). When they > blow it, they really blow it. Even the pompous turkey - Bob Park, hated > as he may be in a few circles (LENR and alternative nutrition/ healing) > is correct at least 90% of the time. As long as he is belittling someone > else's scared cow, let him enjoy his soap-box and petty-pomposity. He > does provide another "filter" of sorts ... yet we all need to have our > own personal bogon filters, rather than rely on the park-people. > > On Vo, we probably have to filter out more bogosity than any other > forum. Not ironically, alternative-energy attracts bogosity like an NIB > magnet attracts iron. "Apparent Bogosity" however, is not all bad, in > one sense. It may have uncredentialed origins, and it may chafe at the > halter of mainstream control (and funding) but its 'rarity of > factuality' is balanced firmly by the extreme value of the small truth > which goes against the grain. That is the problem. > > In computerese - the "Bogon" is an informal name for an IP packet on the > Internet which claims to be from the IP address space which is reserved, > but not yet allocated by the net-cops (Internet Assigned Numbers > Authority) to an accountable entity. IOW: the bogon is not credentialed. > The areas of unallocated address space are called "bogon space" but that > can be temporary, pending a $mall $um, and you emptor, so to speak - > must constantly recheck for crednetials. There is a direct corollary to > this part of information science and other pursuits. All science is > ultimately "information science". > > Take so-called "free energy" for instance. 99% of everything which > claims to be free energy is bogus, and its point of origin is usually a > "tell." No problemo ... almost. We are all aware of certain "tells" like > the lab was raided and the machine confiscated. Yet it is the < 1% which > will eventually make any tiresome pursuit worthwhile, even wading > through tons of huckster-smuckster - and this slim glimmer of ultimate > value is why we tune into to forums like this one (and some of much > higher average-bogosity). > > In the meantime, we must make do with heavy filtering, but the biggest > problem overall is that lack of funding for the all important *1%* > which is the uncredentialed information which is either true or pointing > in that direction, but anti-mainstream. This hidden truth is the very > spark and impetus of advancing civilization - the forbidden fruit - the > one percent. If we must fund the whole bogus 99% it is still worthwhile, > but this can only be done when we are not funding war. > > That is where the "gift economy" can come in. Free enterprise without a > gift economy stinks. More on that later. > > After all, when you look for the only things in life that matter - it's > all about information. Dis-information is not always malicious, and it > is not always spam (or even an annoyance) and it is not always > counter-productive. Consider it as humor, if you like. > > Like most everything in life - bogosity is a ultimately an ongoing > balance of pluses and minuses. The "cutting edge" easily becomes the > "bleeding edge" with a single misstep. > > As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say - "So it goes" > > Jones > > (if you were thinking Linda Ellerby, you should be reading more and > watching less TV) > > > > > > > ------=_Part_117211_8878781.1177066195832 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with you that more attention should be paid, but I have a very different view as to the level of Bogosity.

Indeed this annoys me as people discount things often with no reason besides it not fitting what they currently believe, please give me 20 instances of apparent Bogousness, and we'll see if we can hit on some to discuss.

Don't pick all ones which are extremely bogus or already disproven, just a nice average mix.


On 4/20/07, Jones Beene < jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
The term "bogon" is computer hacker jargon, where it is defined as the
quantum of "bogosity", which itself is the property of being bogus.

"Bogus" in this case refers as much to point of "origin" as to ultimate
truthfulness. Many seemingly bogus facts turn out to be true. We can
equate the value of certain information with its origin, however, at
least for the purpose of convenience in the overload of the information
age - and this saves a lot of time without too many oversights - usually.

For instance, 98-99% of everything MIT sez about physics is either true,
arguably true, or not-yet-disproven (or generally innocuous). When they
blow it, they really blow it. Even the pompous turkey - Bob Park, hated
as he may be in a few circles (LENR and alternative nutrition/ healing)
is correct at least 90% of the time. As long as he is belittling someone
else's scared cow, let him enjoy his soap-box and petty-pomposity. He
does provide another "filter" of sorts ... yet we all need to have our
own personal bogon filters, rather than rely on the park-people.

On Vo, we probably have to filter out more bogosity than any other
forum. Not ironically, alternative-energy attracts bogosity like an NIB
magnet attracts iron. "Apparent Bogosity" however, is not all bad, in
one sense. It may have uncredentialed origins, and it may chafe at the
halter of mainstream control (and funding) but its 'rarity of
factuality' is balanced firmly by the extreme value of the small truth
which goes against the grain. That is the problem.

In computerese - the "Bogon" is an informal name for an IP packet on the
Internet which claims to be from the IP address space which is reserved,
but not yet allocated by the net-cops (Internet Assigned Numbers
Authority) to an accountable entity. IOW: the bogon is not credentialed.
The areas of unallocated address space are called "bogon space" but that
can be temporary, pending a $mall $um, and you emptor, so to speak -
must constantly recheck for crednetials. There is a direct corollary to
this part of information science and other pursuits. All science is
ultimately "information science".

Take so-called "free energy" for instance. 99% of everything which
claims to be free energy is bogus, and its point of origin is usually a
"tell." No problemo ... almost. We are all aware of certain "tells" like
the lab was raided and the machine confiscated. Yet it is the < 1% which
will eventually make any tiresome pursuit worthwhile, even wading
through tons of huckster-smuckster - and this slim glimmer of ultimate
value is why we tune into to forums like this one (and some of much
higher average-bogosity).

In the meantime, we must make do with heavy filtering, but the biggest
problem overall is that lack of funding for the all important *1%*
which is the uncredentialed information which is either true or pointing
in that direction, but anti-mainstream. This hidden truth is the very
spark and impetus of advancing civilization - the forbidden fruit - the
one percent. If we must fund the whole bogus 99% it is still worthwhile,
but this can only be done when we are not funding war.

That is where the "gift economy" can come in. Free enterprise without a
gift economy stinks. More on that later.

After all, when you look for the only things in life that matter - it's
all about information. Dis-information is not always malicious, and it
is not always spam (or even an annoyance) and it is not always
counter-productive. Consider it as humor, if you like.

Like most everything in life - bogosity is a ultimately an ongoing
balance of pluses and minuses. The "cutting edge" easily becomes the
"bleeding edge" with a single misstep.

As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say - "So it goes"

Jones

(if you were thinking Linda Ellerby, you should be reading more and
watching less TV)







------=_Part_117211_8878781.1177066195832-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 08:38:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3KFcE32032179; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:38:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3KFcBpg032119; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:38:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:38:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QMYpKMSqDHOl9SWbAxrLppeHJHTtNd4YhBnEE9qKz7N6kcMZbdobhAfK0tQuy/zpsbIM4kvXTJL7WEF3buywGnqdO04z+4g1KA20/VPil/nh80kGa2hTtT/mNBCImedlDLqJDoJFV4OBTbIqFSNH+MEEHpRp/BjfispEOh+yHpo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=efUberFbF46YH4h488N0ITZ5emJIaRqg/P/2rEHC+ucz8uKG8fhwyLmzdXakvcA6xlCXx0EZ02v9ex9q5v5wAT4KefS+dHSMdPvv+KbLX+iu0z3wM4Qik5KjRd60NC9IOwuyxxnA+K/hEqZRrnMQV3APef2Am/rPYWz0jov8HEM= Message-ID: <4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:37:56 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74419 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused > warming to talk about anything else. She ignored the issue of the Sun's > increased irradiance. Actually I recall Dr. Brenda did indeed address this. > Also the observation that temperature increases, > then atmospheric CO2 increases. Art Bell, true believer that he is, ate > it all up. Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and the fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science. Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist *now* believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence is overwhelming. > OTOH, C to C AM has Richard Hoagland as a guest. LOL, Richard Hoagland, the guy who went on live nationwide radio to claim the Mars surface photos reveled a landscape filled with man made tools? As I recall, on a later date Art Bell got a good chuckle out of that on radio by jokingly referring to Richards claim, which interestingly enough is when Richard began his "Lets hate Art Bell" campaign. Sorry my friend, in this case it's far more logical to side with a leading climate science researcher, Dr. Brenda Ekwurzel, PhD. over Richard Hoagland. Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 22:26:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3L5QINQ001123; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:26:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3L5QD0J001096; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:26:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:26:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=OoG7Ho+X/+wmjBlcL0U4EszzErOI8IvFmrcaISUd4zKicxBvDAHwdmMEJsAsxHQ6; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <27005953.1177133171717.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:26:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d844d9d7274b8386d39a1596f8510cddb2667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.46 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74420 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 20, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Apr 20, 2007 2:16 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 20, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 20 Apr 07 Washington, DC 1. BIGELOW SPACE STATIONS: BUDGET SUITES IN LOW-EARTH ORBIT. "Space is just another place to do business," they used to say in the Reagan White House. What business, you might ask? The latest venture in space is Bigelow Aerospace, which revealed its plans last week at the National Space Symposium in Colorado Springs. Robert Bigelow, the founder and president of Bigelow Aerospace, intends to have three manned outposts, assembled from inflatable modules, in low-Earth orbit by 2015. Bigelow is also the owner of Budget Suites of America, a hotel chain, but he'll leave space tourism to the ISS. Bigelow is courting two markets: foreign space agencies that don't have access to a space station, and multinational corporations that want to get into micro- gravity research. That was the fatal miscalculation of previous space station programs: industry couldn't find anything worth doing in micro-gravity. So, is this crazy? Decide for yourself: Robert Bigelow also founded the National Institute of Discovery Science in Las Vegas, a secretive research group with links to the Pentagon that focuses on alien abductions and the paranormal. 2. SEX EDUCATION: ABSTINENCE MAKES THE HEART GROW FONDER. Students who participated in sexual abstinence programs were just as likely to have sex as those who did not, according to a study ordered by Congress. Nor did they have fewer sex partners, or wait longer to become sexually active. The report, released late last Friday, comes just after the abrupt resignation of Dr. Eric Keroack, an anti-birth control zealot, appointed by Bush just four months ago to head the Office of Population Affairs of the Department of Health and Human Services. A non-board-certified gynecologist/obstetrician who operates six Christian anti- abortion centers in Massachusetts, Keroack had been notified of a state investigation into his private practice. 3. STUDENT LOANS: EVEN HIGHER EDUCATION HAS SUCCUMBED TO BRIBERY. In 1994, Congress established a program of direct student loans at lower interest rates. Bank of America and Citibank, the biggest banks in the student loan business, lavished millions in bribes on colleges and universities to get them to drop out of the federal program. The banks were led to the trough by Sallie Mae, the largest private student lender. Sallie Mae began as a quasi-governmental agency in 1972, but began privatizing 10 years ago. This week Sallie Mae announced it is selling itself and will become will become fully private. The CEO will walk away from the deal with about $257 million, while 10 million students will graduate with debts that average nearly $20,000. 4. MISTAKES: READERS TELL US WN HAS BEEN GETTING A LITTLE SLOPPY. Everyone in the APS Washington Office used to stop what they were doing late Friday to proof WN. We are now making the transition from APS to UMD, however, and "we" now means "me." We will try to be more careful, but mystakes are possible. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 22:49:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3L5n2iO012687; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:49:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3L5n00i012666; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:49:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:49:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4629A5A8.3010302@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 00:48:24 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> <00e601c78325$dd6faaa0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <00e601c78325$dd6faaa0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74421 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >It seems to me that whatever the causes of GW, if we want a remedy we will have to take care of it. > >Jed mentioned orbiting parasols once, I then understood he was talking about Earth orbits so I > You could use either the Cook Drive or the E M Drive to hold the parasol in place. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 22:59:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3L5wuOj015084; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:58:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3L5wsBv015067; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:58:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:58:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 00:58:36 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> <4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74422 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused > > Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and the > fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science. > Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist > *now* believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence > is overwhelming. > There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 20 23:05:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3L65G80017144; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:05:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3L65E4M017123; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:05:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:05:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=R3yIs7eabgOb9xIfu1hMgoSBcTIUNMV4WzlUV/aOd7QbYI0VnGbFqh0/ouzgWmP8DzmNQcxdRGxB3UXMxv+TfdKhUO9p0rNxL0OVDF3QdqAd/gXDdY9otc2W9O8xRVp7C7A3w2TOqnbrYO5k5MIOW5KQ6mrfBlzg6NWABbTg9bs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q6CRiIGK+FdGFoownXZ3pyKwoochs9i7fTrOBH6+jklh5E6fM6JJKb3KXtgcSNiS2UqUJ7hN6Rxa6/alHX4dMk/yeCH05evF9eYI32LTTaxYJsN9WxZns2RGlU/xAbDM0qmX9lNb0v9Q3vqNgLjbpobiZ6s6yRuATVZ0CyKKF1k= Message-ID: <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:05:03 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> <4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74423 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> thomas malloy wrote: >> > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused >> >> Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and the >> fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science. >> Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist >> *now* believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence >> is overwhelming. >> > There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU > No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree with the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is the cause of global warming. Humanity is destroying this planet, period! Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 04:59:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LBwrDv016178; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 04:58:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LBwpnq016164; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 04:58:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 04:58:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c7840c$73b6c3e0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> <4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 06:59:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74424 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy Vorts, As the world turns, the rant goes on and the stomach turns. People are not destroying the planet.. maybe themselves individually and in collective groups.. but not the planet.. that's coming, but by design and not by human decree or PHD. Richard >> > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused >> >> Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and the >> fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science. >> Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist *now* >> believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence is >> overwhelming. >> > There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU > >No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree with >the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is the cause >of global warming. >Humanity is destroying this planet, period! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 07:01:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LE1hF8022684; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:01:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LE1gwN022669; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:01:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:01:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OzG0jnZg0fIsa1kE3LkRl1rv6w9WhrH3g9ci9CJ9lBM0amjjC5wkGmR50B6rgKRNb6GMfaLZQ8QKlllXK+hvw0EgCiOBI8aeZrE4Hy7G5T7Cbi3qzExWJEmSEVCTeAUQLFY53YpwFquoMOdyDE3Z9Famhiu4BTZJ4zRXvf2Iokw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FH971MNmvY8A/Bo/XYFYki2eXIG43LEu8bW+Zlz1BIqHWhnkBMJduayuO5ajKUgd74zEuuAqj1ODYpopHXdLGA2lE2h5iOt1r4XM4liheIg3SO0DdlxRFzsYbgUp21xdlJSPJEYZBKjHQpjC5dVBjQVdn2IMRYg2TtRNlSIlKoM= Message-ID: <462A1935.2020706@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:01:25 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> <4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> <000c01c7840c$73b6c3e0$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: <000c01c7840c$73b6c3e0$c905a8c0@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74425 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R.C.Macaulay wrote: > Howdy Vorts, > > As the world turns, the rant goes on and the stomach turns. People are > not destroying the planet.. maybe themselves individually and in > collective groups.. but not the planet.. that's coming, but by design > and not by human decree or PHD. > Richard >>> > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human >>> caused >>> >>> Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and >>> the fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science. >>> Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist >>> *now* believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence >>> is overwhelming. >>> >> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU >> >> No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree >> with the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is >> the cause of global warming. > >> Humanity is destroying this planet, period! > The planet has life; forests, ozone, etc. etc. Investigate and you should discover humanity is *literally* wiping out forests, causing ozone depression, air pollution, ocean chemical pollution, unnatural green house, etc. etc. All of which cause other problems-- an avalanche effect. I'm not a climate expert. In this case I'll trust the words of a leading PhD climate scientists than a few people at Vo, LOL. :-) Here's some up to date information for you. Last week Dr. Brenda, PhD. clearly said most climate scientists now agree with recent data that humanity is the major cause of global warming. Do you or anyone at Vo have a more recent statement from a leading PhD climate physicist that disagrees with the aforementioned statement? I doubt it, lol. The few disbelieving climate scientists left are probably just stubborn, a little slow, and perhaps wrote a book and therefore cannot stomach to admit such error. IMHO a person should be very cautious with claims in writing a public book. Once the claim is made public in such a book the scientist would rather cut off their arm than admit error. Such a pity when modern society is at stake, as this is a vitally important field. Fact still remains. Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 07:04:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LE4ISj024019; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:04:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LE4HSk024004; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:04:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:04:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462A19D2.9040705@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:04:02 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> <4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74426 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > >> Paul Lowrance wrote: >> >>> >> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU >> > No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree > with the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is > the cause of global warming. > > Humanity is destroying this planet, period! No Paul, it's not the case. The video makes the case much better than I can. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 07:07:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LE7UBo003670; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:07:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LE7RJe003655; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:07:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:07:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c7841e$601199c0$e5da163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower><4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net><4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:07:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74427 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. >> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU >> > > > No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree with > the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is the cause > of global warming. Well, since Vortexians seem to love a good logical fallacy argument.... ....this entire thread is developing into an appeal to authority that is so large Godzilla will have to come out of the sea of Japan to do battle with it. I've no idea who "Dr. Brenda" is exactly, nor do I particularly think the teachings of Richard Hoagland are going to solve much of our problems. I listen to Art Bell at times, I take almost nothing of it seriously. It is light-hearted entertainment, and I love spooky stuff late at night, real or not, it is all just as fun. Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of bovine waste product was worded. Does anyone here on Vortex want to actually work on stuff like this in the real world, like real world solar power, electric cars for the people (not fancy BS jobs that cost more than a Mercedes-Benz, but cheap stuff for the poorer among us), etc? Or is this becoming a list for the "new televangelism?" Believe me, if I could afford it, if it was available, I would use an electric car to go back and forth to work. (But I would keep the Buick for longer excursions.) Does anyone want to really discuss this stuff, and make it happen? Or at least try wholeheartedly? I'm game, I've been working on things quietly in the background for years. "Vortex Electric Vehicle" anyone? > Humanity is destroying this planet, period! Our definitions of destroy must be very different. Altering, changing, yes. Destroy? In my book, that would entail overcoming the gravitational binding energy of the Earth, putting it "in orbit around itself". Or, if you mean "render uninhabitable", no we aren't doing that either. Life will be here long after we are gone, if we go.*** But, that said, if you want to do solar power, alternative fuels, etc., man I am right here with you. ***What is that...optimism?!? I suppose, the Sun is now shining and it isn't so cold here today, the long string of unseasonable cold caused by the increase temperature of the Earth, no doubt. :) --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 07:33:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LEXZnP031421; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:33:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LEXY6X031407; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:33:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:33:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=H66xr7lKtlR8JMkT09C/H4oy3jM3oJIM/K4bH8JegLna6SnTW44mHsf21+/6Pm0lMh4G6sU8YItm+sUrHNgROieAa2VqygBDQlqq1mnmLD38RMQ9uB22KVH6aJXplaljT3IbH4A01qrxlGxJVnLTN9nMrqaAgJ8tjf6/9/cw7bg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CTcWALN/vZwyj+m/ZafQ4dINjVu5FyN0RHsUicOpglITTNjKqBblMEsg9t7QEJUOpXMBMfqOtYAcxdyb9D7rCzoXgLg396lo72NaQZw8i04CD0GMI8LyfjJAOhCGF0SzN0++l5Dx4TXZ9AUjNjaPNqHN/Ljv2VbamAyohxpR7Wc= Message-ID: <462A20B0.9050205@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:33:20 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net> <4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> <462A19D2.9040705@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <462A19D2.9040705@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74428 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >>> Paul Lowrance wrote: >>> >>>> >>> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU >>> >> No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree >> with the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is >> the cause of global warming. >> >> Humanity is destroying this planet, period! > > No Paul, it's not the case. The video makes the case much better than I > can. Check out the date when that material was filmed. I can give you up to date information. Last week, Dr. Brenda, PhD. said most climate physicists *now* agree with recent data that humanity is the cause of global warming. Can you show us a more recent statement that says otherwise? I don't think so. You are clinging to old information. Try taking a look at the air in most major cities. Take a look at China. I seriously doubt air is supposed to be brown, LOL. Amazon forest satellite images taken over time clearly reveal mass destruction. Are you aware of what recent computer simulations predict from all these man made changes? This conversation is meaningless until you can provide us with a more recent statement form a leading climate scientist who states most climate scientists disagree that humanity is the major cause of global warming. In this case it is illogical to go against the mass majority of climate physicists. One thing is for certain, Dr. Brenda is far qualified enough to know whether most climate scientists agree humanity is the major cause of global warming. Dr. Brenda works in this field with up date to information. She knows the up to date majority position in this field. Since I am not a climate expert, I'll take the side of the mass majority PhD climate scientists thank you very much. Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 08:11:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LFBPWq011630; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:11:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LFBNjp011621; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:11:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:11:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WZeDPTplT281lX6lUmcOD9AHvG23y5W6sIisQPXJV7KUS2faMKkWIBHAZDR2pKBjkmQQ1xQnTfB64zyqmE2w8JfEUk74FrhV3CkPsXVrsi4qpm8NKTOhww7kazU0f/wJNIs32hIralADCWV7N/kC/tQKAMhLv5rH/fPq/QBl3/8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QiLCy0mlz8xULWORpFeGDkIXHjDtJDAgMIZIFLhmzCPbcKnLuOdIWAM76riBlNt8Bav8VGEZu3WOBqk9MDCtULNG3qQYOZLklDtYPi+S1JeCXsnNbmMoiLTFF+yFbXg4c1RtFHQfXEz7NEopvpwgVj8vs1/REYmJ2DzXjqsHoos= Message-ID: <462A298E.8040803@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:11:10 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower><4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net><4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> <001201c7841e$601199c0$e5da163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <001201c7841e$601199c0$e5da163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74429 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: [snip > Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at > the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. > Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a > severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be > used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you > preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does > it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of > bovine waste product was worded. I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate scientists now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad cycle? I mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society are real and undeniable. We should try to improve. It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of global warming-- humanity or the Sun. Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of the cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL. So what? We shouldn't care. Fact still remains that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with Kyle's post. Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more minds focusing on this issue. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 08:32:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LFWRoO027513; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:32:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LFWP9r027491; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:32:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:32:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20070421153224.65747.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=dl5G1ujzvUhyjFH3xtzVlNQgWVpINBAmSGJvJVDAyFiReKK54In6wJ+G8OqiAbwo3wzJgjlYYjw31VJEAUPxRYIi0yqinCHsPSeeCB52m+2EhQ/S7rskbBU4n/NVi6K2dVWcoRQyBns+CbpfQnGB58HGp9oXNjSdzdByqGgB/kY=; X-YMail-OSG: dW6.KqkVM1lcVxPJIHQbyzBIjkk2ixJnfB2QemgbzlQ12TOvsUhFWBNscRjP10wUZru_ucrvoQ-- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000c01c7840c$73b6c3e0$c905a8c0@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74430 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One warped comment to add into the bogosity mix: > People are not destroying the planet.. maybe themselves > individually and in collective groups.. but not the planet.. I agree with this part of Richard's summation, but he may be viewing the situation in the context of a narrow religious prophecy. Understandable, yet .... This prophecy, and others from diverse traditions, may be both surprisingly accurate in terms of a coming disaster, yet at the same time - misleading ... horribly misleading if you are among the hopeful class of believers looking for "rapture" based solely on faith, and especially if it is a faith which accepts war under false pretenses, and wealth accumulation in the face of enforced poverty, as acceptable goals. As it turns out, ancient prophecy from many traditions can be reinterpreted into a modern context, which end-result may be more troubling to 'true believers' than some kind of Armageddon which favors only a "chosen" group. IOW there is a kind of 'end of days' scenario approaching, in the guise of an evolutionary jump, but it is extremely doubtful that the individuals who think they are in the chosen group really are - as the criteria will likely be a big surprise; and will have little to do with what most dogma indicates. The master plan is like a many-layered Russian egg - but it may unravel - as the secret could not be hidden from all. IF -- all the data about the human interaction with the planet were to be evaluated by a superior but non-human mentality, there is one conclusion, which every almost every human has missed, thus far. Indeed, ID is not a fiction, and yes there 'could be' evidence of goal-directed ongoing planning, especially in the rapid advances in the past two decades in computers, artificial intelligence, genetic engineering, networking and robotics .... .... there 'could be' evidence that the master plan involves a forced evolutionary change... and that the NWO will involve much more than a united world government. ... there 'could be' evidence that the master plan will involve an extreme forced reduction in human population and Matrix-like enslavement (instead of rapture) for the survivors. How would the reality of "pre-planned" global warming, and the efforts under way by some to abet and co-conspire - i.e. to force the alarmists to ignore the implications of that trend until it is too late to do anything to halt it - how would that possible scenario fit into the revised 'Russian egg' triple-cross prophecy? Without sounding too cynical, it is pretty clear than an "evolutionary jump" is much closer at hand than many of us chose to realize, and that the way is being paved for recipients of that technological largess to be chosen for the big-jump (i.e. a 'rebirth' not spiritual but physical, into an advanced race) based on criteria which is a total heresy and abomination to what is contained in scripture (until that dogma is drastically reinterpreted, which will happen). ... yet all the while, those who are in-the-know, are holding out some kind of false hope (a kind of facilitating promise) to the 'mass of believers' who will be triple-crossed, in the end. Curiously, even the present US administration is NOT in-the-know, and they are being duped by yet a higher order of ID. Harry Tuttle, who has been spying on the NWO for some time has told me privately that the Neo-Con thing was just a ruse. Yes, people like W are tools (in more ways than one) and are getting direct messages from ID - but the conent is bogusly decieving. Yup ... sorry to say it, W, but the trickster has been hard at work, once again, and it will be mostly the Limo-Liberals who will be positioned and selected for the new master race. Enjoy you rapturous stay in the NeoCon wing of the Matrix .... Kokopelli rules ;-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 09:09:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LG8t4w011689; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:08:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LG8rSb011675; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:08:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:08:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0bad01c7842f$5bf39d50$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower><4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net><4628DE54.30401@gmail.com> <4629A80C.9070502@usfamily.net> <4629A98F.5030600@gmail.com> <001201c7841e$601199c0$e5da163f@DFBGQZ91> <462A298E.8040803@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:08:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74431 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/ = are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate = global warming, and how, we should be practical about this. Thomas suggested some drives as propulsion means for space parasols, but = it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon = pressure anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented = this way (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of = the parasol, there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will = be in equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon = pressure, comments/criticisms welcome on this. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually = based. > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > [snip >> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not = at=20 >> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working = class.=20 >> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a=20 >> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to = be=20 >> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what = you=20 >> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen = does=20 >> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of=20 >> bovine waste product was worded. >=20 >=20 >=20 > I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate = scientists=20 > now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed = causing=20 > appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad = cycle? I=20 > mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern = society are real=20 > and undeniable. We should try to improve. >=20 > It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of = global=20 > warming-- humanity or the Sun. Really, who cares if humanity is 51% = of the=20 > cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL. So what? We shouldn't care. Fact = still remains=20 > that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with = Kyle's post.=20 > Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more = minds=20 > focusing on this issue. >=20 >=20 > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 17:23:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3M0NTCK005436; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:23:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3M0NQKS005415; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:23:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:23:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002701c78474$76b42a20$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: Re: Global warming caused by ... Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:23:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C7844A.8D94E420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <6CnMWD.A.dUB.9rqKGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74433 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C7844A.8D94E420 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0024_01C7844A.8D94E420" ------=_NextPart_001_0024_01C7844A.8D94E420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, The topic of global warming came up during a small discussion at the = Dime Box saloon which usually results in a brawl. Today our resident mathematics PHD explained global warming using basic = geometry which I quote below.. >There were three Indian squaws. One slept on a deerskin, one slept=20 >on an elk skin, and the third slept on a hippopotamus skin. All three = became >pregnant, and the first two each had a baby boy. The one who slept on = the >hippopotamus skin had twin boys. This goes to prove that the squaw of = the=20 >hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws of the other two hides. Several Vorts have requested that we get serious about global warming . = This is my suggestion that everyone turn off at least one 100 watt bulb = in the interest of modesty.. cuz .. well.. errr.. it's not to private in = a tepee. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0024_01C7844A.8D94E420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
The topic of global warming came up during a small discussion at = the Dime=20 Box saloon which usually results in a brawl.
Today our resident mathematics PHD explained global warming using = basic=20 geometry which I quote below..

>There were three Indian squaws. One slept on a deerskin, one = slept=20

>on an elk skin, and the third slept on a hippopotamus skin. = All=20 three became

>pregnant, and the first two each had a baby boy. = The one=20 who slept on the

>hippopotamus skin had twin boys. This goes = to prove=20 that the squaw of the

>hippopotamus is equal to the sons of = the=20 squaws of the other two hides.

Several Vorts have requested that we get serious about global warming = . This=20 is my suggestion that everyone turn off at least one 100 watt bulb = in the=20 interest of modesty.. cuz .. well.. errr.. it's not to private in a = tepee.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0024_01C7844A.8D94E420-- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C7844A.8D94E420 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002201c78474$76603dc0$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C7844A.8D94E420-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 17:48:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3M0mUBr029170; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:48:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3M0mSah029158; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:48:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 17:48:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Mwww1clV+djjv15g/rkACnbQrdpzhadKl2fFniXVLY+SW8arNK6JSzopsu2zWA9fljcCCvukBWemKX/KTmjwQtQt8fH2eRCrgwa7bTO4QDe0zxPp3t6KtOBphy9xb7MekfumMQNkcwofIC6JimIN1Xg0Fjnhu9k1hmkXPA8Vbiw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DRzGu2DpjvQ13XIY378ebTPRRMhP1hWK6I8PJYCVCwF7WTZvdXWRyM/RO80WP7KV8WR9Wlo3apPyR/EQfNwKmPNfSNH2QbhEs8V4kgHo92U2WpI0W/FDzHTmCCXKS1jBOr6mVzWio/zOcT9uI9jpftF+uABgtrCGJ6a9ALL/PRY= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:48:27 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. In-Reply-To: <735329.20519.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_138088_15604090.1177202907043" References: <735329.20519.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74434 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_138088_15604090.1177202907043 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I haven't read much in this thread, but in the end it doesn't matter if the polluting man is doing is the cause of Global Warming. Very few are questioning if Global Warming is happening, if it will be a problem. The issue of man's fault in causing it is just a blame game and unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it's happening. The other undeniable issue is that man can fix it and has the response-ability to do so for our own good. The only issue that need be under discussion is how we should go about this. Oh, wait I just read the post before mine and it says the same thing, oh well... On 4/22/07, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: > > I think we should aim all the fire-hoses on earth at the sun, then say > ready! set! go! (The element of surprise is so important.). > > P. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Michel Jullian > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 12:08:54 PM > Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. > > Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate global > warming, and how, we should be practical about this. > > Thomas suggested some drives as propulsion means for space parasols, but > it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon pressure > anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented this way > (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of the parasol, > there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will be in > equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon pressure, > comments/criticisms welcome on this. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lowrance" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. > > > > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > [snip > >> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not > at > >> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. > >> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a > >> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be > > >> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you > >> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does > > >> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of > >> bovine waste product was worded. > > > > > > > > I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate > scientists > > now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing > > appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad > cycle? I > > mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society > are real > > and undeniable. We should try to improve. > > > > It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of > global > > warming-- humanity or the Sun. Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of > the > > cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL. So what? We shouldn't care. Fact still > remains > > that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with > Kyle's post. > > Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more > minds > > focusing on this issue. > > > > > > Regards, > > Paul Lowrance > > > > > ------=_Part_138088_15604090.1177202907043 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I haven't read much in this thread, but in the end it doesn't matter if the polluting man is doing is the cause of Global Warming.
Very few are questioning if Global Warming is happening, if it will be a problem.
The issue of man's fault in causing it is just a blame game and unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it's happening.

The other undeniable issue is that man can fix it and has the response-ability to do so for our own good.

The only issue that need be under discussion is how we should go about this.

Oh, wait I just read the post before mine and it says the same thing, oh well...


On 4/22/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
I think we should aim all the fire-hoses on earth at the sun, then say ready! set! go!  (The element of surprise is so important.).

P.

----- Original Message ----
From: Michel Jullian < mj@exbang.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 12:08:54 PM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.

Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/ are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate global warming, and how, we should be practical about this.

Thomas suggested some drives as propulsion means for space parasols, but it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon pressure anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented this way (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of the parasol, there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will be in equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon pressure, comments/criticisms welcome on this.

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lowrance" <energymover@gmail.com >
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.


> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> [snip
>> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at
>> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class.
>> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a
>> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be
>> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you
>> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does
>> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of
>> bovine waste product was worded.
>
>
>
> I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate scientists
> now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing
> appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad cycle?  I
> mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society are real
> and undeniable. We should try to improve.
>
> It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of global
> warming-- humanity or the Sun.  Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of the
> cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL.  So what? We shouldn't care.  Fact still remains
> that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with Kyle's post.
> Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more minds
> focusing on this issue.
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>



------=_Part_138088_15604090.1177202907043-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 12:46:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3LJkUFg014320; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:46:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3LJkSCK014301; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:46:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:46:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=bD5wY9hftvbeGe6DZWak2PaQU+CVJFOPAY1HMll9ZabcGyXNiSMYpM2Py4M91fwkLK2J7SjXBB4AL9OQQWhhri+qkb8j+jt7Vvq61oeY/gNng2Lup5lKXQHxe6CY7ao7Vlx1uHYQt8zSnm7aNYDuUj1M8/kWcGglVtIU0gW97Jc=; X-YMail-OSG: HdbCVzEVM1ln3aseBQ7rwNTVjg3G1oYZdYI6RIV6M55KdLE8ZSSbPRAnLNaGhNCtnQ-- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.10 Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:46:25 -0700 (PDT) From: PHILIP WINESTONE Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1240724538-1177184785=:20519" Message-ID: <735329.20519.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6IvheB.A.SfD.TomKGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74432 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: --0-1240724538-1177184785=:20519 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii I think we should aim all the fire-hoses on earth at the sun, then say ready! set! go! (The element of surprise is so important.). P. ----- Original Message ---- From: Michel Jullian To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 12:08:54 PM Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/ are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate global warming, and how, we should be practical about this. Thomas suggested some drives as propulsion means for space parasols, but it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon pressure anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented this way (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of the parasol, there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will be in equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon pressure, comments/criticisms welcome on this. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > [snip >> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at >> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. >> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a >> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be >> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you >> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does >> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of >> bovine waste product was worded. > > > > I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate scientists > now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing > appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad cycle? I > mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society are real > and undeniable. We should try to improve. > > It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of global > warming-- humanity or the Sun. Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of the > cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL. So what? We shouldn't care. Fact still remains > that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with Kyle's post. > Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more minds > focusing on this issue. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > --0-1240724538-1177184785=:20519 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii
I think we should aim all the fire-hoses on earth at the sun, then say ready! set! go!  (The element of surprise is so important.).

P.

----- Original Message ----
From: Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 12:08:54 PM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.

Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/ are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate global warming, and how, we should be practical about this.

Thomas suggested some drives as propulsion means for space parasols, but it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon pressure anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented this way (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of the parasol, there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will be in equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon pressure, comments/criticisms welcome on this.

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lowrance" <energymover@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.


> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> [snip
>> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at
>> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class.
>> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a
>> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be
>> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you
>> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does
>> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of
>> bovine waste product was worded.
>
>
>
> I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate scientists
> now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing
> appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad cycle?  I
> mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society are real
> and undeniable. We should try to improve.
>
> It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of global
> warming-- humanity or the Sun.  Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of the
> cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL.  So what? We shouldn't care.  Fact still remains
> that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with Kyle's post.
> Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more minds
> focusing on this issue.
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>


--0-1240724538-1177184785=:20519-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 19:38:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3M2cbxD000880; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:38:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3M2cZcY000848; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:38:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:38:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=lYFhVwcGZ4hr8df6L46xOWKGL+2o8x7F95UM4qN7Y2fj+9KHtK7niWcZt96uPXIXXR57cmdHnP7/Sr1heDPZR/Z+DO1ZB8hWtefTanWNqri7SHEcDMyS9e5tujnTDI2OP7n9cpS288eVejZaFg1HDZwcTf+zFkbJoP3+OMrQH2I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tQ+2Q/XQr6U7ovj/UJBZ5L3JLg0wzEjVqbR60L4EhS1PktOSgYA5EVYgBI/ZdYXyWWghTnaLK16XKXEE4orhpC6OwbOKUQPAeamAan2MG4yrNtCgUzKU2F9GcGEUCKt9WKOxBUhiDHHj+UsxZk2r203JxnUaQBKXe/B+p+uY0gw= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:38:33 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]: Re: Global warming caused by ... In-Reply-To: <002701c78474$76b42a20$c905a8c0@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002701c78474$76b42a20$c905a8c0@xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74435 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/21/07, R.C.Macaulay wrote: > This goes to prove that the squaw of the > > >hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws of the other two hides. Just goes to show that a pie by two fag gurus is flavorable. Good one, RC. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 20:03:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3M33Qkm015122; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:03:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3M33NHb015095; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:03:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:03:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:01:58 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <006101c5e6d1$0015a8e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <006101c5e6d1$0015a8e0$6401a8c0@NuDell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.1.98] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:02:49 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74436 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: Abstract of WO2004059662 Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:02:56 -0800: Hi, [snip] >This is totally bizarre, and alien to all of physics - but someone (who = has a "mit.edu" email address, if it is the same Christian Tahan) went to= the trouble and expense of filing this WPO application. He appears to = be a computer programmer, not a physicist... not there's anything wrong = with that. > >AZIZ CHRISTIAN TAHAN, 1765 Northshore Road, Suite 3, Revere, MA. 02151, = =20 > > >Abstract of WO2004059662 > Quoting from the description of the patent:- "Moreover in the presence of deuterium, it has been postulated that the = decay of a proton can result in a helium-3 atom and a gamma ray, the same fusion = process of the Sun. The process is an energy generation process." This is simple fusion, and has nothing whatever to do with proton decay. = The only person "postulating" this is the inventor, who clearly hasn't a = clue. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 21 22:31:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3M5Ux5I017446; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:31:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3M5UvPT017438; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:30:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:30:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462AF307.30807@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:30:47 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. References: <20070421153224.65747.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20070421153224.65747.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74437 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >One warped comment to add into the bogosity mix: >People are not destroying the planet.. maybe themselves > >>individually and in collective groups.. but not the >> >planet.. > >I agree with this part of Richard's summation, but he >may be viewing the situation in the context of a >narrow religious prophecy. Understandable, yet .... > >This prophecy, and others from diverse traditions, may >be both surprisingly accurate in terms of a coming > >disaster, yet at the same time - misleading ... >horribly misleading if you are among the hopeful class >of believers looking for "rapture" based solely on >faith, and especially if it is a faith which accepts >war under false pretenses, and wealth accumulation in >the face of enforced poverty, as acceptable goals. > It has been clear to me for some time that the growth of human civilization is unsustainable, I have used the analogy of bugs (bacteria) on a petri plate. The accumulation of wealth and the enforcement of poverty is a manifestation of the underlying problem of human evil or sinful nature. > >As it turns out, ancient prophecy from many traditions >can be reinterpreted into a modern context, which >end-result may be more troubling to 'true believers' >than some kind of Armageddon which favors only a >"chosen" group. > If we (the Church) aren't withdrawn, we will be killed. > >IOW there is a kind of 'end of days' scenario >approaching, in the guise of an evolutionary jump, but > > The "evolutionary jump" has to be accompanied by a cleansing of our evil nature. It is often assumed that an education makes you a better person. In reality, this ignores that the biggest supporters of Hitler were people with doctorates. Eduction produces a more sophisticated and destructive savage. > >IF -- all the data about the human interaction with >the planet were to be evaluated by a superior but >non-human mentality, there is one conclusion, which >every almost every human has missed, thus far. > >Indeed, ID is not a fiction, and yes there 'could be' >evidence of goal-directed ongoing planning, especially >in the rapid advances in the past two decades in >computers, artificial intelligence, genetic >engineering, networking and robotics .... > >.... there 'could be' evidence that the master plan >involves a forced evolutionary change... and that the >NWO will involve much more than a united world >government. > From the viewpoint of the savage the agenda of the NWO; the breeding of a blond superman, the reduction of population, and enforcement of wild areas on the planet. makes perfect sense. That this agenda flies in the face of the agenda of the entity who created the world, is of no consequence to the hard core of the NWO crowd, who worship another god. > >... there 'could be' evidence that the master plan >will involve an extreme forced reduction in human >population and Matrix-like enslavement (instead of >rapture) for the survivors. > IMHO, we're both right. > >How would the reality of "pre-planned" global warming, >and the efforts under way by some to abet and >co-conspire - i.e. to force the alarmists to ignore >the implications of that trend until it is too late to >do anything to halt it - > If I'm right about the increase in solar irradiance, there's nothing that anyone, other than the creator, can do about it. >how would that possible >scenario fit into the revised 'Russian egg' >triple-cross prophecy? > >Without sounding too cynical, it is pretty clear than >an "evolutionary jump" is much closer at hand than >many of us chose to realize, > If the agricultural scientists can't fix the missing bee problem, you are right. One of the Eschatologists think that the seven year clock may have started last Rosh HaShanna. This lines up with both the honey bee problem and the 2012 prophecy. >and that the way is being >paved for recipients of that technological largess to >be chosen for the big-jump (i.e. a 'rebirth' not >spiritual but physical, into an advanced race) based >on criteria which is a total heresy and abomination to >what is contained in scripture (until that dogma is >drastically reinterpreted, which will happen). > Dream on. > >... yet all the while, those who are in-the-know, are >holding out some kind of false hope (a kind of >facilitating promise) to the 'mass of believers' who >will be triple-crossed, in the end. Curiously, even >the present US administration is NOT in-the-know, and >they are being duped by yet a higher order of ID. > In all fairness to W. I draw his actions to that of a man walking down the top of a picket fence. One slip and he gets a picket up a certain bodily orafce. I could write a paper on the various forces that have to be factored into maintaining the status quo. Maintaining the economy is essential to maintaining the existing order. > >Harry Tuttle, who has been spying on the NWO for some >time has told me privately that the Neo-Con thing was >just a ruse. Yes, people like W are tools (in more >ways than one) and are getting direct messages from ID >- but the conent is bogusly decieving. > Or you can see it as a civilizational war between the forces of modernity and the forces of the imposition of Sharia Law. > >Yup ... sorry to say it, W, but the trickster has been >hard at work, once again, and it will be mostly the >Limo-Liberals who will be positioned and selected for >the new master race. > I've already commented on the tricker allegation. The conservative author, Phillys Shaffley, has started calling for the impeachment of W. Having slings and arrows coming from both sides is, IMHO, an indication of someone in the middle. >Enjoy you rapturous stay in the >NeoCon wing of the Matrix .... > >Kokopelli rules ;-) > What does that mean? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 03:42:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MAgntm015381; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:42:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MAglaI015361; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:42:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:42:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:42:29 -0400 Message-ID: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C784A9.65EE6450" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AceEyuyim+bxq9iISESF2EvqgLpCdA== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74438 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Global Warning Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C784A9.65EE6450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said, =93GLOBAL = WARNING- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme weather could = kill 1 million people by 2100=85 =20 I am greatly concerned about the =93global warming hysteria=94 that is = being foisted upon the public. I recall a news caster six weeks before saying that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years. Do = you realize what that means? It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activity had nothing to do with it! It is well known to some historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than = today by about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that = either! Mars is even heating up. I can=92t wait to be told what part of my = lifestyle is causing the Martian heat wave! =20 There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still = intact, and tropical vegetation in their mouths. When discovered in the = 1800=92s, the meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn=92t fit to eat after = five years. So, how old can these animals be? Clearly, Siberia was a = tropical climate in the recent past. That warm period cannot possibly be the = fault of the human race. =20 Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to shut up = about it. There are many scientists who disagree with the hypothesis that we = are causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they = consider the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say what they really believe. Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said that = any weather person who did not believe in =93global warming=94 should be = fired! The coercion continues! =20 In the late 70=92s the media was scaring us with predictions from = reputable researchers about the coming ice age. These scientists were not idiots. Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 yrs? =20 =20 Is there some kind of agenda here? There sure is! With our public = school children forced to watch Al Gore=92s movie over and over again, and his = recent rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and general = population into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established business enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by selling = them bogus carbon credits! =20 We are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhouse = gases, including CO2. Plants and trees love CO2. They must have it to = survive. They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three times = higher. Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green houses to dramatically increase growth rates. =20 =20 CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion. It is a direct measure of a civilization=92s prosperity; the more controlled per capita production = of CO2, the higher the standard of living. For us to significantly reduce CO2 emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of = life. The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately = cause more death and destruction than =93global warming=94. =20 Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there is = nothing we can do about it. If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sneezes, we freeze. We are presently in a natural warming trend. It is arrogance = to think we are causing it. If we are too puny to cause it, then we are definitely too puny to fix it. We shouldn=92t live in fear. As long as = God has His hand on the sun=92s thermostat, we will be alright. But, we = live in an age where much of the world=92s leadership and this forum believe = that we ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need. =20 We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization. When humans endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we = can only expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth. As the global = warming issue finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of making some really bad laws that will hurt all of us. =20 Don=92t misunderstand me. I=92m all for conservation, alternate energy, = and getting off of oil dependency. I have spent thousands of my own dollars = on PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover something that will help. But, let=92s not be stupid by making crippling decisions that = will cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization. We will only = have the resources to solve our problems while working from a position of prosperity, not poverty. =20 Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace Engineering VA Tech =20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11:56 AM =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C784A9.65EE6450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said, “GLOBAL WARNING- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, = extreme weather could kill 1 million people by = 2100…

 

I am greatly concerned about the “global warming = hysteria” that is being foisted upon the public.  I recall a news caster six = weeks before saying that Europe had just = experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years.  Do you realize what that means?  = It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activity had nothing to do = with it!  It is well known to some historians that the period from 900 = to 1100 AD was also warmer than today by about three degrees, and human activity = had nothing to do with that either!  Mars is even heating up.  I = can’t wait to be told what part of my lifestyle is causing the Martian heat = wave!

 

There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh = still intact, and tropical vegetation in their mouths.  When discovered in the = 1800’s, the meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn’t fit to = eat after five years. So, how old can these animals be?   Clearly, = Siberia was a tropical climate in the recent past.  That warm period cannot = possibly be the fault of the human race.

 

Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to = shut up about it.  There are many scientists who disagree with the = hypothesis that we are causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they = consider the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say what they = really believe.  Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said that = any weather person who did not believe in “global warming” should be = fired!  The coercion continues!

 

In the late 70’s the media was scaring us with predictions = from reputable researchers about the coming ice age.  These scientists = were not idiots.  Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 = yrs? 

 

Is there some kind of agenda here?  There sure is!  = With our public school children forced to watch Al Gore’s movie over and over = again, and his recent rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and = general population into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established business enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by selling them bogus carbon credits!

 

We are being told that we must reduce our production of = greenhouse gases, including CO2.  Plants and trees love CO2.  They must = have it to survive.  They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or = three times higher.  Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their = green houses to dramatically increase growth rates.  =

 

CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion.  It is a direct = measure of a civilization’s prosperity; the more controlled per capita = production of CO2, the higher the standard of living.  For us to significantly = reduce CO2 emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of = life.  The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately = cause more death and destruction than “global = warming”.

 

Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there = is nothing we can do about it.  If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun = sneezes, we freeze.  We are presently in a natural warming trend.  It is = arrogance to think we are causing it.  If we are too puny to cause it, then we are = definitely too puny to fix it.  We shouldn’t live in fear.  As long as = God has His hand on the sun’s thermostat, we will be alright.  But, we live in = an age where much of the world’s leadership and this forum believe that = we ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we = need.

 

We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.  = When humans endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we = can only expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.  As the global = warming issue finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of making = some really bad laws that will hurt all of us.

 

Don’t misunderstand me.  I’m all for = conservation, alternate energy, and getting off of oil dependency.  I have spent = thousands of my own dollars on PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover = something that will help.  But, let’s not be stupid by making crippling = decisions that will cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization.  = We will only have the resources to solve our problems while working from a position = of prosperity, not poverty.

 

Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace Engineering VA Tech

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 = 11:56 AM

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C784A9.65EE6450-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 05:01:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MC1dVM010392; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 05:01:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MC1aQQ010377; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 05:01:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 05:01:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=sNS2GIgRAx9LgNQ5vnXyJg4L3OhHp2XYGZG7RvsFJwqH2eLYC3fKbcmkYp9oeJ1ZqrUper5y1x961Gl3nXwVzn5mNcBqcDgFCAzOxIVyP9ufA4dZj6Ks3gs8nlT5xj93G7t9KfW3f7nj4tB/phWRsWvAVVQ6AUnnqfRQdkZ0rcM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=BUZdhM30cKfL9D4uNLDSv6wgiDM2MLaF4KLTzlh31uDpjzyO3c8nuUmTVXSMcNG0iQJJFvKibdjVmiD6U6RhpGHK75Am3wQyZ0ltsLMX7tl/V3k1aSrTRU8Sjnil3vAeA//V9isMLWyRwX3lyttfS9kMYe7yb7RejOpEJWlV/z8= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:01:35 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning In-Reply-To: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_141207_32670348.1177243295543" References: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74440 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_141207_32670348.1177243295543 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long time, not 500 years. I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post but if you don't realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/idiot. That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this. On 4/22/07, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > > The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said, "GLOBAL > WARNING- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme weather > could kill 1 million people by 2100=85 > > > > I am greatly concerned about the "global warming hysteria" that is being > foisted upon the public. I recall a news caster six weeks before saying > that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years. Do you > realize what that means? It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and > that human activity had nothing to do with it! It is well known to some > historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than today= by > about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that eithe= r! > Mars is even heating up. I can't wait to be told what part of my lifesty= le > is causing the Martian heat wave! > > > > There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still intact, > and tropical vegetation in their mouths. When discovered in the 1800's, = the > meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn't fit to eat after fiv= e > years. So, how old can these animals be? Clearly, Siberia was a tropica= l > climate in the recent past. That warm period cannot possibly be the faul= t > of the human race. > > > > Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to shut up > about it. There are many scientists who disagree with the hypothesis tha= t > we are causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they > consider the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say w= hat > they really believe. Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said t= hat > any weather person who did not believe in "global warming" should be fire= d! > The coercion continues! > > > > In the late 70's the media was scaring us with predictions from reputable > researchers about the coming ice age. These scientists were not idiots. > Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 yrs? > > > > Is there some kind of agenda here? There sure is! With our public schoo= l > children forced to watch Al Gore's movie over and over again, and his rec= ent > rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and general populat= ion > into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established business > enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by selling t= hem > bogus carbon credits! > > > > We are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhouse gases, > including CO2. Plants and trees love CO2. They must have it to survive. > They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three times higher. > Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green houses to > dramatically increase growth rates. > > > > CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion. It is a direct measure of a > civilization's prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of C= O2, > the higher the standard of living. For us to significantly reduce CO2 > emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of lif= e. > The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately cause > more death and destruction than "global warming". > > > > Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there is > nothing we can do about it. If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sneeze= s, > we freeze. We are presently in a natural warming trend. It is arrogance= to > think we are causing it. If we are too puny to cause it, then we are > definitely too puny to fix it. We shouldn't live in fear. As long as Go= d > has His hand on the sun's thermostat, we will be alright. But, we live i= n > an age where much of the world's leadership and this forum believe that w= e > ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need. > > > > We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization. When humans > endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we ca= n > only expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth. As the global warmi= ng > issue finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of > making some really bad laws that will hurt all of us. > > > > Don't misunderstand me. I'm all for conservation, alternate energy, and > getting off of oil dependency. I have spent thousands of my own dollars = on > PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover something that will > help. But, let's not be stupid by making crippling decisions that will > cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization. We will only have > the resources to solve our problems while working from a position of > prosperity, not poverty. > > > > Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace Engineering VA Tech > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 > 11:56 AM > ------=_Part_141207_32670348.1177243295543 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long time, not 5= 00 years.
I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post= but if you don't realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/id= iot.

That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.

=
On 4/22/07, = Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> = wrote:

 

The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said, "GLOBAL WARNING- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme weather could kill 1 million people by 2100=85

 

I am greatly concerned about the "global warming hysteria" that is being foisted upon the public.  I recall a news caster six wee= ks before saying that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years.  Do you realize what that means?  It= means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activity had nothing to do with it!  It is well known to some historians that the period from 900 to 1= 100 AD was also warmer than today by about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that either!  Mars is even heating up.  I can'= t wait to be told what part of my lifestyle is causing the Martian heat wave!

 

There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still intact= , and tropical vegetation in their mouths.  When discovered in the 1800'= s, the meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn't fit to eat after five years. So, how old can these animals be?   Clearly, Siberia was a tropical climate in the recent past.  That warm period cannot po= ssibly be the fault of the human race.

 

Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to shut up about it.  There are many scientists who disagree with the hypothesis = that we are causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they consid= er the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say what they re= ally believe.  Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said that any w= eather person who did not believe in "global warming" should be fired!  The coercion continues!

 

In the late 70's the media was scaring us with predictions from reputable researchers about the coming ice age.  These scientists were= not idiots.  Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 yrs? = ;

 

Is there some kind of agenda here?  There sure is!  With our p= ublic school children forced to watch Al Gore's movie over and over again, and his recent rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and genera= l population into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established business enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by selling them bogus carbon credits!

 

We are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhouse gases, including CO2.  Plants and trees love CO2.  They must have= it to survive.  They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three = times higher.  Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green= houses to dramatically increase growth rates. 

 

CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion.  It is a direct measure= of a civilization's prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of CO2, the higher the standard of living.  For us to significantly reduc= e CO2 emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of life.=   The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately cause m= ore death and destruction than "global warming".

 

Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there is nothing we can do about it.  If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sne= ezes, we freeze.  We are presently in a natural warming trend.  It is arro= gance to think we are causing it.  If we are too puny to cause it, then we are defini= tely too puny to fix it.  We shouldn't live in fear.  As long as God has H= is hand on the sun's thermostat, we will be alright.  But, we live in an age where much of the world's leadership and this forum believe that we ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need.

 

We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.  When huma= ns endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we can = only expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.  As the global warming= issue finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of making so= me really bad laws that will hurt all of us.

 

Don't misunderstand me.  I'm all for conservation, alternate energy, and getting off of oil dependency.  I have spent tho= usands of my own dollars on PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover somet= hing that will help.  But, let's not be stupid by making crippling decision= s that will cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization.  We w= ill only have the resources to solve our problems while working from a position of prosperity, not poverty.

 

Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace Engineering VA Tech

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11= :56 AM


------=_Part_141207_32670348.1177243295543-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 06:00:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MD04f3027950; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:00:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MCp4bF021730; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 05:51:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 05:51:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <658B909676444D7F9C9963CC499456B2@LeChoisis> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <735329.20519.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:35:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C784E3.2762FDB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16386 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16386 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74441 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C784E3.2762FDB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Berry wrote:- <> Actually, I think blame is vitally important in this situation. = Scientists and environmentalists have been warning about various aspects = of human induced climate change at least since the mid seventies. I was = talking about it on the radio in 1992 (15 years ago...). During this = period, the forces of consumerism, aided and abetted by the marketing = and advertising industries, backed up by the Yuppie "greed is good" = mentality and Reagan/Thatcherite economic theory, continued to promote = their version of "the way" while downplaying and actively spreading = misleading propaganda against those who were noticing, and trying to = tell people about, an obvious truth. This simple truth is that consumer = society economics is only sustainable while one is still living in an = "empty world" i.e. a world where the atmosphere, oceans, land surface = and animal species can absorb whatever mankind (or any out of control = species) throws at them without being pushed beyond the sustainable = limits. The truth is that we are now living in a "full world" and = mankind's demands increasingly will disrupt the natural environment upon = which we ultimately depend for a comfortable, liveable, situation, here = on our only Planet. A minuscule population of humans can do whatever = they feel like to the Planet and it won't have a significant effect - = six billion plus are capable of changing things radically. The whole = underpinnings of mainstream thought, society and economics are = unconsciously based upon this "empty world" hypothesis. Please get out = the way, if you can't lend a hand, cos the times they are a'changin'.=20 All the people who clung on to their stupid, blinkered, limited = world view, based upon an inadequately wide view of the world, while = sneering at those greater minds who could see beyond the next wage = packet or electoral term of office, are to blame. They should be held up = to ridicule - it should be done in elementary schools! - it is our = absolute duty to ridicule them "pour encourager les autres". As possibly = one of the greatest of all examples of human stupidity and short sighted = self interest, those lost 30 years of inaction need to be held up as a = terrible example so that maybe, just maybe, the forces of ignorance and = complacency and idiocy and evil won't get listened too as much in the = future when the next problems come along.=20 Nick Palmer ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C784E3.2762FDB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John Berry wrote:-
 
<<The issue of man's fault in causing it is just a blame game = and=20 unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it's = happening>>
 
Actually, I think blame is vitally = important in=20 this situation. Scientists and environmentalists have been warning about = various=20 aspects of human induced climate change at least since the mid = seventies. I=20 was talking about it on the radio in 1992 (15 years ago...). During this = period,=20 the forces of consumerism, aided and abetted by the marketing and = advertising=20 industries, backed up by the Yuppie "greed is good" mentality and=20 Reagan/Thatcherite economic theory, continued to promote their version = of "the=20 way" while downplaying and actively spreading misleading propaganda = against=20 those who were noticing, and trying to tell people about, an = obvious truth.=20 This simple truth is that consumer society economics is only sustainable = while=20 one is still living in an "empty world" i.e. a world where the = atmosphere,=20 oceans, land surface and animal species can absorb whatever mankind (or = any out=20 of control species) throws at them without being pushed beyond the=20 sustainable limits. The truth is that we are now living in a "full = world" and=20 mankind's demands increasingly will disrupt the natural environment upon = which=20 we ultimately depend for a comfortable, liveable, situation, here on our = only=20 Planet. A minuscule population of humans can do whatever they feel like = to the=20 Planet and it won't have a significant effect - six billion plus are = capable of=20 changing things radically. The whole underpinnings of mainstream = thought,=20 society and economics are unconsciously based upon this "empty = world"=20 hypothesis. Please get out the way, if you can't lend a hand, cos the = times they=20 are a'changin'. 
    All the people = who clung on=20 to their stupid, blinkered, limited world view, based upon an = inadequately wide=20 view of the world, while sneering at those greater minds who could see = beyond=20 the next wage packet or electoral term of office, are to blame. They=20 should be held up to ridicule - it should be done in elementary = schools!=20 - it is our absolute duty to ridicule them "pour encourager les autres". = As=20 possibly one of the greatest of all examples of human stupidity and = short=20 sighted self interest, those lost 30 years of inaction need to be = held up=20 as a terrible example so that maybe, just maybe, the forces of ignorance = and=20 complacency and idiocy and evil won't get listened too as much in the = future=20 when the next problems come along. 
 
Nick Palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C784E3.2762FDB0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 06:47:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MDlQcC011028; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:47:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MDlO2L011008; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:47:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:47:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mkKitIqPAVVhcsqYRPg1rNNNo0c8Jh6zUI3PuXKEaLVWR1bhy0hVXZTWVrNNZMrQDhPu0ayH1mJ2C1v82jpzLJqH5f2IFsWsmkJN+5QYfiZ7LInYIYd76eETAZCHmFdxI2cqeRasutbBRO+Bw2qtLP5L9vCwVM92MIQah6AAcZg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a4RQQZuHGkBuxEhsKzefvY8PvtwczA0BgeX9yNYEHCG/jL/nWZ9UqGFm9n9IcQHzTtZMPPPiP/8esRI7hT+igQm422Mq8HhAE+hChyT9HZfrhU7+e6/qRGxvKCh8aVU6JabRGWAERQFJypHJMYqnRg0R3F8apnL+tGRARMNZFq4= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:47:20 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. In-Reply-To: <462AF307.30807@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070421153224.65747.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <462AF307.30807@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74442 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/22/07, thomas malloy wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >Enjoy you(r) rapturous stay in the > >NeoCon wing of the Matrix .... > > > >Kokopelli rules ;-) > > > What does that mean? The trickster rules: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokopelli Terry (wishing he had a detachable penis) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 07:04:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3ME4Ul7017893; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:04:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3ME4Sja017871; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:04:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:04:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c784e7$2095aba0$87ca163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:04:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74443 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning > It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long time, not > 500 years. > I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post but if you > don't realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/idiot. Interesting to see that the side which questions global warming is the side which posts the more thought-out, calm posts, and yet still suggests that we should so something about pollution and oil dependancy. But on the other side of the coin, all the pro-global warming side can do is namecall, demand that people get fired, talk about criminalizing use of incandescent light bulbs, talk about taking more of what little money we have away, and call "global warming denial" the equivalent of "holocaust denial", while using terms such as "idiot", "fool", etc. Yes, it is easy to see which side is doing the thinking, and which side is the Reich of the Carbon Black Sun. > That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this. Numbers to support this please. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 07:10:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MEAcWK017784; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:10:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MEAawx017762; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:10:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:10:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=fxtmjSNSxoayh5oPQwM/bDVWnxYIcLlfV8WucPAogSbZCWiLm//PC0zr/mpznuWsYXZJa4p+pNBGHVVsdoNCbhEv+3z878BR4KAcAgPr7DalEdNMkHBWKG86R4vB+gMxTkIKv3reGV1IUH/oNlq58V46kZJjraHrqPlGFRwKQBw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=XLGulo4Fy15Tp4TopIhPQ7RZSe6Kf7zYhkBso6hHz7T8t0RM2LTYkSTqpgl2ADPo99ShBaaTYwKgoC+W6Z6auX/U48pAHHQ2nx5sFDIYqj6BxDxaJbxuainG/ugRmD2BXRnTdlRIMiGsaY3NMMidsd+khQzxpRW/Ub6j6aNuoyM= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:10:34 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning In-Reply-To: <002a01c784e7$2095aba0$87ca163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_141608_20424165.1177251034819" References: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <002a01c784e7$2095aba0$87ca163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74444 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_141608_20424165.1177251034819 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/23/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > > That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this. > > Numbers to support this please. > > --Kyle Watch "An Inconvenient Truth", there is a chart that addresses this. ------=_Part_141608_20424165.1177251034819 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 4/23/07, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:

> That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.

Numbers to support this please.

--Kyle

Watch "An Inconvenient Truth", there is a chart that addresses this.


------=_Part_141608_20424165.1177251034819-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 07:14:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MEE9jm019267; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:14:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MEE7Lc019249; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:14:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:14:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Global warming Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:14:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01C784BE.99D5D950" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74445 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C784BE.99D5D950 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002B_01C784BE.99D5D950" ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C784BE.99D5D950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Berry wrote.. It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long time, = not 500 years. I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post but if you = don't realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/idiot.=20 Howdy John, You may propose a solution to your fear of global warming. Perhaps you = can enlist China, India and Africa to co-operate in a pollution free = world. Been my experience people are notional and not subject to change until = and unless it is their particular ox being gored.( pun intended). The = earth has a marvelous adaptive functionality.. it simple allows a = species to die off if that species can''t adapt and survive.=20 Now speaking of mammoths being frozen in Siberia.. shucks , we have = politicians in office in Texas... well.. err.. nevermind.. you wouldn't = believe it. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C784BE.99D5D950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Berry wrote..
 
It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long = time, not=20 500 years.
I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post = but if=20 you don't realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/idiot. =

Howdy John,

You may propose a solution to your fear of global warming. Perhaps = you can=20 enlist China, India and Africa to co-operate in a pollution free = world.

Been my experience people are notional and not subject to change = until and=20 unless it is their particular ox being gored.( pun intended). The earth = has a=20 marvelous adaptive functionality.. it simple allows a species to die off = if that=20 species can''t adapt and survive.

Now speaking of mammoths being frozen in Siberia.. shucks , we have=20 politicians in office in Texas... well.. err.. nevermind.. you wouldn't = believe=20 it.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C784BE.99D5D950-- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C784BE.99D5D950 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002901c784e8$82a8d410$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C784BE.99D5D950-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 07:20:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MEKb2l021447; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:20:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MEKaLN021432; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:20:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:20:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KN76jjJ9Sn+DDY1Wc8LFu83vBk4PZEzSnTJae5WsIBgVyuz1F2x2qT5ZD7G0vPj3IqJHTc3t0RD/B1uORieiYX0t+bwOFjEvtPighcCNzecjFbjPuWIQpwKemyNqCUoWQRipKy2F5fgP57j2agVRA9M9DmaY0L+eARNGlsgM84M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jhf9eviCw0vIRhscDBhWcJsPzNwG5dLfPsGJx4MlR09H9PuE0NuxhmVYne3m2UYjBXrnjFvKn83hhnNOiqOTqdxBc4tNO/RIz78w5juCd1jACBu/+h/Xk7l4Hyf476/l4AIqYzMITMvPjEWvxfYOfjlN7nYzO5mT+kDpzf0ZVZ4= Message-ID: <462B6F25.2040608@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:20:21 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning References: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> In-Reply-To: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74446 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't see the logic in a lot of your words. You assume that because the Sun is part of the cause that humanity has somehow done nothing. That's not true. What you said is well known and is openly discussed amongst climate scientists, including Dr. Brenda. Sorry, I'll side with the mass majority here, who do indeed openly talk about all contributing factors such as the Sun. Regards, Paul Jeff Fink wrote: > > > The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said, “GLOBAL WARNING- > If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme weather could kill 1 > million people by 2100… > > > > I am greatly concerned about the “global warming hysteria” that is being > foisted upon the public. I recall a news caster six weeks before saying > that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years. Do you > realize what that means? It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and > that human activity had nothing to do with it! It is well known to some > historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than today by > about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that either! > Mars is even heating up. I can’t wait to be told what part of my lifestyle > is causing the Martian heat wave! > > > > There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still intact, > and tropical vegetation in their mouths. When discovered in the 1800’s, the > meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn’t fit to eat after five > years. So, how old can these animals be? Clearly, Siberia was a tropical > climate in the recent past. That warm period cannot possibly be the fault > of the human race. > > > > Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to shut up about > it. There are many scientists who disagree with the hypothesis that we are > causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they consider > the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say what they > really believe. Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said that any > weather person who did not believe in “global warming” should be fired! The > coercion continues! > > > > In the late 70’s the media was scaring us with predictions from reputable > researchers about the coming ice age. These scientists were not idiots. > Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 yrs? > > > > Is there some kind of agenda here? There sure is! With our public school > children forced to watch Al Gore’s movie over and over again, and his recent > rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and general population > into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established business > enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by selling them > bogus carbon credits! > > > > We are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhouse gases, > including CO2. Plants and trees love CO2. They must have it to survive. > They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three times higher. > Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green houses to > dramatically increase growth rates. > > > > CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion. It is a direct measure of a > civilization’s prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of CO2, > the higher the standard of living. For us to significantly reduce CO2 > emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of life. > The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately cause > more death and destruction than “global warming”. > > > > Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there is nothing > we can do about it. If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sneezes, we > freeze. We are presently in a natural warming trend. It is arrogance to > think we are causing it. If we are too puny to cause it, then we are > definitely too puny to fix it. We shouldn’t live in fear. As long as God > has His hand on the sun’s thermostat, we will be alright. But, we live in > an age where much of the world’s leadership and this forum believe that we > ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need. > > > > We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization. When humans > endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we can > only expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth. As the global warming > issue finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of > making some really bad laws that will hurt all of us. > > > > Don’t misunderstand me. I’m all for conservation, alternate energy, and > getting off of oil dependency. I have spent thousands of my own dollars on > PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover something that will > help. But, let’s not be stupid by making crippling decisions that will > cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization. We will only have > the resources to solve our problems while working from a position of > prosperity, not poverty. > > > > Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace Engineering VA Tech > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 > 11:56 AM > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 07:50:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MEoGFF001309; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:50:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MEoEvG001283; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 07:50:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=NFLt8dXl1przmqJiBQVcseEd822JJQVbD9ai2W2E+CPvU+jVCNdBsDgzdR+DYq476QQdOMdxDi3kPt9zko4EfaZrNyPlZBoGqd0athGt8Rp3UpvaacahxNE2wak99Sw7MptXMDLancNiZrv8TAsRVgGXsARiePDV2/53Rocnihw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OsJCbSImn//l/LScDJIt1E/a9Y18Tvjk+J5KU/Iyer/mi4z+qrPN4zACQDk4hZiuL7bHhwXi4Dq9zeB+NLKh2XguLly0CREUS4IeKxFUh7L85Pwfz7Y60p49ep8S5LhTnfcDQ/GFi62lhmLxgPbglh2x2ms+rMSk2s5ufz2p0A0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:50:11 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Global warming In-Reply-To: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_141780_13834324.1177253411489" References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74447 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_141780_13834324.1177253411489 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/23/07, R.C.Macaulay wrote: > > > Now speaking of mammoths being frozen in Siberia.. shucks , we have > politicians in office in Texas... well.. err.. nevermind.. you wouldn't > believe it. > > Richard > I hate a mystery, finish your thought. ------=_Part_141780_13834324.1177253411489 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 4/23/07, R.C.Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:

Now speaking of mammoths being frozen in Siberia.. shucks , we have politicians in office in Texas... well.. err.. nevermind.. you wouldn't believe it.

Richard

I hate a mystery, finish your thought.
------=_Part_141780_13834324.1177253411489-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 08:07:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MF7o0d002204; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:07:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MF7mi4002188; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:07:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:07:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=phjSxlfBb5Jccucxa9C2hM+eEfjp07wZjQEb+tZoYRkkd6uZzyWMOXwhJVrRDuwS9/6AaSyeqxizzM9/HOznGzHPKAOY2i1Rh4EqYVBzXCwPMxcwyjfdAsC69zlYNgy0TalUMLDW5FI0az0jZ/s8HivERG3fBRANPiyTuHl4bQw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ri037DXWAqLTqEv7xDmgczatfS4sUgPGEXmxWzzFTAXUtJEnfJ5ohE3wC7axrDK8Na45HamYiOUpMLCaI6y4y28zg87PzR5CEb+erywzhqEcfQkD5s5MkxX6OiZpskVaetWIc3Z6jarbStnQqGZYZyEs0mlyiGepHmCzLSvoQgE= Message-ID: <462B7A39.6090903@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:07:37 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning References: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> In-Reply-To: <002201c784ca$ed000450$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74448 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Fink wrote: > It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and > that human activity had nothing to do with it! It is well known to some > historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than today by > about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that either! I sent Dr. Brenda an email with your quote, as I'd like to know the response from a PhD leading climate scientist. Most likely everyone at Vo has heard about the information you wrote, as it's all over the Internet and considered common knowledge. Obviously Dr. Brenda knows about this. The question is, what's the majority response of leading climate scientists. Jeff Fink wrote: > Watch "An Inconvenient Truth", there is a chart that addresses this. Yes, that was *released* to the public on May 24th, 2006, 11 months ago. The data used in the "An Inconvenient Truth" is well over a year old. BTW, I admire Al Gores very much for his intelligence, honesty, and truth seeking nature. I'm just saying that a one year movie should be considered out of date in regards to global warming data. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 09:02:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MG2hAC019230; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:02:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MG2flw019205; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:02:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:02:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=AMuv309gT7ots+1eJ7Ft8b/CMIggZusYk9Z0XsO1E2By2iOnMAyJjiCKN5+YTEfF5RO9mYreYTTuv6pz18ywge3Ym/ja/IlhgXX1ukZoGLJj5/CR+HkgFQttk1yfNWP380c+Ha5jZEToJhlv/f/jCLNQw3PJamYy0ktql45tMtA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=OlZCfoUsjnHO4EcWeIdZ2vtS5p0xAM9qJtQP9UKJeoPGnrDaFlrjBP9X9jM2enSyuyHFxWBKCq1s1d95fj+4qc2Jn0Uw6StXkghBgNzSgJPAVomeg4qq/TC8e4E9+jQG32iaX20iNRhKEkwC07uE+9LknQmVV9v90p/pWBQkXy0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:02:38 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning In-Reply-To: <302236.32876.qm@web88011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_142468_14767563.1177257758569" References: <302236.32876.qm@web88011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74452 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_142468_14767563.1177257758569 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://journal.copernicus.org/en/images/stories/film_reviews/ice_age2/ipcc_temp_past1000years2.jpg wrote: > > The warming 500 - 1000 years ago is a blip compared to what, exactly? > > P. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Berry > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:10:34 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning > > > > On 4/23/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > > > > > That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this. > > > > Numbers to support this please. > > > > --Kyle > > > Watch "An Inconvenient Truth", there is a chart that addresses this. > > > > ------=_Part_142468_14767563.1177257758569 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://journal.copernicus.org/en/images/stories/film_reviews/ice_age2/ipcc_temp_past1000years2.jpg <hotter than the last 1,000 years
http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/graphics/large/2.jpg <co2 and temperature linked
http://cosmicvariance.com/wp-images/CO2.png <CO2 waaay up

You can't rule out data because it is a year old, otherwise there would be no reason to pay attention to any data since it will be old someday, but hey it's historical data it's meant to be old ;)

CO2 is a cause of global warming and it is ome we can easily do something about, we have other things we can do but that's the easiest even if the sun is contributing.

On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
The warming 500 - 1000 years ago is a blip compared to what, exactly?

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry < aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning



On 4/23/07, Kyle R. Mcallister < weir@fdscience.org> wrote:

> That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.

Numbers to support this please.

--Kyle

Watch "An Inconvenient Truth", there is a chart that addresses this.




------=_Part_142468_14767563.1177257758569-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 09:30:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MGUP1w027160; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:30:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MGUO7S027146; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:30:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:30:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cR8Mg7dgpBQO7IgvwjzgQ58l4cIxfG4QRNrdaRE6foPcQSuFP9LzmsicKl1ssMvT2hlgVf/3ntwtybXNGBgp3w3DvZNM1HwZH6u1bIHEHnm12usZVCvhyoTg/nC+ituFewq25MVHysv3w69aX+bNOtRmem1q5SsM5KOcNeBD5W0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fmLLNxtJBGq12ejVJv43D8RqEdLYDgjke8o4Hh44Xfj8T1JTh4UCwzNSMBqInw2iPMqINAVJKetCML8mG5k7gr09wUjUdgVsbQpV7EQOeE12s1pEi4pjb4nwEqCmEs87dSVLNV4OYYzdPoiZFgoD2dCY8nJI0fF0DNJSk15LiDg= Message-ID: <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:30:09 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal' References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74453 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Evidence For Human-caused Global Warming Is Now 'Unequivocal'" February 2, 2007 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070202085036.htm Global effects: http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au/images/EnergyUsage200Years.JPG http://securingamerica.com/ccn/files/community/science_1.1.1.jpg http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/IceAgeBook/Image4.gif http://www.jri.org.uk/resource/images/fig2.jpg --- "Most people don't seem to understand how drastic the recent changes in temperature are. They think of them as just part of the background warming that ended the ice ages. This graph should explain it: Average earth temperature over the last 1000 years Earth's average temperature from 1000 CE to 2100 CE. The red line shows the average temperature of the earth over the last 1000 years. The grey vertical line represents the year 2000. You notice the red line is pretty flat then suddenly starts to take off matching the curve of greenhouse gas production that came along with global industrialisation. The last part is an extrapolation based on computer models. There are several lines, outcomes dependent on how lackadaisical we are about global warming. You might wonder how scientists can possibly know the average temperature going back 1000 years. There are many sources of information that can be used to cross check each other including ice cores, chemical analysis of carbon isotopes, tree rings of 1000 year old trees, plant remains in silt layered deposits and of course civil records." http://mindprod.com/images/earthtemperature.jpg --- http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/graphics/lawdome.gif Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 09:38:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MGc6df005133; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:38:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MGc4IU005103; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:38:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:38:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=GQKuO3tfsriQ9K7D7Fuxrif80WjsvQtuUlwBbwWsEgeQf/pGTHdg8WaDUyuHAgp6+2jllq8lzPXM1oXry3cX4Y9T+G9/vxW17I/EFy4I03Ttb/xSR+ywepUQJPFWvsfkFFRGF6r951T3uoiwr9qHuyT1BbuJ81HXhHRjSycsPJk=; X-YMail-OSG: yNWjJXcVM1m7N14RqP8R5lkqss8cKY4tZYXh5.iOiDNWr8Smv8b0unu18bhBUtJj5CF.fYZN1x5WQdzyIA1GpyThgIjbcesM.L4Bh1oNSmxiLRBOYyw- Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:38:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <280533.69703.qm@web82713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <5ZmhUC.A.ZPB.r94KGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74454 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer? Status: O X-Status: Stanley returns, may we presume? To get that trivial-pursuit-ish quip, one would need to know that Henry Stanley was the penner of the line "Dr. Livingstone, I presume?" at about the time that the Stanley twins (no relation) demonstrated their 'Stanley Rocket' steam car, which set the world land speed record at the Daytona Beach. And soon after - expired into oblivion. Yet it is the longest-standing officially recognized land speed record. The Steamer enjoyed a boom in the early 1900s before eventually being overtaken technologically by the internal combustion engine- and the combined marketing power of big-oil and Henry Ford. What goes around comes around? ... as they say... or in the alternative, if 4-cycles is good - then six is better. Especially if the last two are 'free' energy due to steam. http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467 Peter Kammler is a member of the Sustainable Energy Forum and has a background is in auto engineering, including at Mercedes Benz. His non-copyrighted article: "From tailpipe to the smoke stack" is one of the most concise short essays on hybrid auto efficiency available, but he missed this huge advance, the neo-steamer, which is ready to be incorporated NOW into a diesel double-hybrid. I have taken the liberty of modifying that article to include this seamy advance. Despite some recent assertions, the battery-electric car, the plug-in Prius, so to speak - will not make much of a dent in net carbon emissions without a huge nuclear investment - which itself takes too long to implement to be of any help. Wind and solar are too expensive to help in the short term. The marginal unit of electricity always comes from a fossil fuel power station, and the grid losses to the home are greater than you may realize. There may be as many as 7-10 transformers involved, and tens of miles of lossy conductor for getting grid-power to the garage to charge batteries. The batteries themselves are rather lossy. It is a no-win proposition on a level playing field. This is especially true when the ICE gets to be higher efficiency than the grid power plant. This has happened already. The whole bettery scheme then falls apart unceremoniously. Counting the losses at the power station into the equation, a plug-in electric car, despite its own efficiency, does little to mitigate carbon emissions. It merely shifts the carbon output from the tailpipe to the smoke stack. And it shifts the burden of road taxes, which may not be good national policy, unless carbon is actually reduced. Generating the electricity from photovoltaic cells is still forbiddingly expensive. Even if it was cheaper, it would be more sensible to feed the electricity directly into the grid, rather than into the battery of an electric car. Unless, or even-if, the 'better battery' - the bettery - becomes available soon - i.e. a 4-1 improvement in energy storage per weight, then we are better off as a society to maximize the advantages of the NON plug-in hybrid and make everyone pay a fair share of road taxes. There is a way to do this now (with the political will-power). First, back to the truth behind the Prius-type hybrid. And let me add that I am driving a Prius now, love it, and am not a critic. Toyota has proved itself to be number one, no doubt. They can and will do better. Except for its "on-board efficiency" which is far from optimized (particular when a single speed diesel is NOT being used) the Prius hybrid is still as much a tax avoidance and "feel-good" scheme, than a bona fide solution. That is because - in areas where fuel is really precious - there are plenty of much cheaper non-hybrid diesels (in Japan & Europe) which can match or exceed the Prius in mileage (~50 mpg realistically) and save you $8,000 of sticker shock. The Prius, it seems, fits well (or by default) into a weird political/marketing niche in the USA, but not elsewhere. Ask yourself: why don't we have small diesels (1.5 liter or less) here now? At any rate, and on the theme of "a more perfect wold" - when an equal share of road taxes are extracted per auto by driven mileage, there can be a net disadvantage to both the Prius and the plug-in hybrid - due to capital amortization - with or without the "bettery". And - we should never plan ahead, based on a 'breakthrough'. And - on a level playing field, road taxes should be shared by the amount of miles you drive, unless you are actually serving a valid public policy (by reducing CO2 instead of shifting it to a smokestack in outer suburbia). Are hybrid cars, then, still the (level playing field) answer? Yes, but they are still a long way from being optimized. The Prius is a stop-gap solution only, and an expensive one at that. But you will find few owners who do not cherish it - warts and all. Any car with a non-diesel combustion engine is still wasting too much of the fuel it is converting into torque. Hybrids minimizes these losses significantly by simply turning off the engine and recharging batteries in stop-and-go situations. But there are other ways to build on this, and to go far beyond by adding the 6-cycle steam diesel. A Prius type hybrid - but a NON plug-in and a bio-diesel, and with heat (steam) recapture, and lesser batteries, not more - makes the most sense of all the schemes which are available.... at least without a breakthrough in such things peroxide-boosting or hydrogen boosting. Steam alone can add 40% increase in mileage and take a 50 mpg auto to 70 mpg with no loss in performance, AND at less cost than a Prius, due to the elimination of the need for lithium batteries, the complex drivetrain, and the catalytic converter. However, doing this requires one of several "steam overlay" technologies for the diesel which are out there now, and which should be implemented hastily - as they are already proved to the same degree as was the original Prius. These alone can increase the Prius mileage hugely, without the bettery (and even regressing back to lead-acid for lower cost). While idling or coasting, the storage battery in a any hybrid is being charged (or the car is running temporarily on electricity alone, which means there is no idling at all). The car is braked by switching the electric motor to generation mode, thus saving the energy for a new acceleration process. If the engine itself is ultra efficient- then you simply do this more often, but with less battieries ! It's a no-brainer. >From the Prius computer readout, it is immediately clear that this car is most effective in city traffic, and that more expensive batteries are NOT a good answer for the interstate. On long highway stretches, the hybrid is a more expensive propostion than the cheaper diesel ! This is where the six-cycle steam-diesel can come-in, with an even greater benefit. In effect, this design overlays the diesel with a steam engine, making a gigantic advance, with the only downside being the need to carry water. It may be of lower net cost to produce, as it eliminates the catalytic converter and all of those precious metals. BMW has an alternative steamer to the six cycle, but it is a less efficient and more expensive steam overlay technology. There are at least 2 other possibilities. http://tinyurl.com/r66lk In its extreme form, the best solution for the combustion engine, is to add steam on every other power stroke- and to start with the very simple, small turbocharged diesel. It is directly linked to a generator which doubles as a starter. The expensive Prius mechanism is eliminated. The diesel runs at a set speed, therefore avoiding costly engine management systems such as variable valve and injection timing. Four electric drive motors would be integrated directly into the wheel rims. When braking, the drive motors switch to generation mode. The recovered brake energy is stored in the same cheap lead acid batteries which store surplus electricity generated by the diesel. A flywheel can be added, but there is no need for huge expense in the lithium batteries, when the engine itself is higher efficiency than even the one which is used for the grid power plant ! "Mass production" makes this all possible, and guess what ... it may make the mass produced 6-cycle steamer the eventual engine of choice for the grid plant itself (10,000 of them at a time ! since at nearly 60% Carnot, it is better than any grid alternative). Once the battery is charged, the diesel-steam engine stops, until it is required to recharge the battery again. Prius type motor management, computer, auto-clutch, gearbox, drive train, differential, stub axles - all gone. This car can be simplicity itself. Since the engine is such a compact unit, it can be taken out in minutes for service, or swap-out replacement by two men. The unit can be placed anywhere in the car, allowing a space saving layout. Such design is ideal for city traffic in a tiny 3-wheeler. The combined generator and starter also allows incorporating a stop-start system, in which the engine automatically switches off at stops and is restarted in a fraction of a second by pushing the accelerator. This combined flywheel/starter/generator is hardly Toyota. It was used 60 years ago by the German car maker DKW (now Audi) and was not perfected until the Prius came along. Between this extreme solution and the gas guzzler we find the present hybrid epitomized by the Prius. It probably combines too many drawbacks to justify its respective advantage, since it is very complex, and expensive to build. If it takes the average motorist five or more years to recover the extra cost through fuel savings. It does not need to be this complicated ! Fuel cell cars, once the holy grail of automotive engineers, basically are inefficient electric cars, since hydrogen is not readily available except from natural gas. H2 has to be separated out of water, which in itself uses tons of needless energy. Until we find ways to produce cheap hydrogen, the so-called hydrogen economy is a pipe dream. We will solve this problem eventually, but for *present planning* - once again as with the bettery, we should not rely on a breakthrough. Bio-fuels are fine, provided they are produced from organic waste or aquaculture, and not specially grown food crops. One SUV tank of ethanol requires crops that would feed a person for a whole year. Bio-diesel or bio-butanol are preferred, but even with petro-diesel, if-and-when the auto makers move the full hybrid to a six-cycle steam diesel, then 80 miles per gallon with Prius-like performance is all but guaranteed. Perhaps a friendly, genetically modified bacteria or algae can be made to supply hydrogen or biodiesel from organic waste, or to be produced at the grid power plant itself; as no conceivable breakthrough in photo-voltaic panels will allow us to make solar electricity at reasonable cost. Or perhaps a wind-solar-to-H2 facility will be competitive when the H2 strorage problem is solved. In the meantime, there are many improvements possible to the car as it is which if implemented would cut in half the US consumption of oil. The steam biodiesel is the main one which Detroit should be retooling for - as we speak. Many of these measures have not been cost-efficient in the past. But now, with fuel prices remaining high, these incremental improvements will pay for themselves. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 09:55:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MGtCgW012254; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MGtAes012230; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:55:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:55:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=OMBH/9KW0E6s6kOS0O6NrmLr7D7oL/dkQwhr7i2KV8cqpYAVoPtZJX+13yWXVtoC; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <1875320.1177260908912.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:55:08 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c4fd0c12602e92f4252793d3dea8841225157f800b2f96d77350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74455 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Despite some recent assertions, the battery-electric >car, the plug-in Prius, so to speak - will not make >much of a dent in net carbon emissions without a huge >nuclear investment . . . That is incorrect. There is a huge unused generating capacity at night -- more than enough to charge up electric cars. Furthermore, electric power generation and electric cars are far much efficient than gasoline cars, so even if we use only coal fired plants to run electric cars, that would still reduce CO2 emmissions. Half of U.S. power does not come from coal, including a lot of the nighttime baseline generation. In this analysis, I am treating the plug-in car as a electric car, which is reasonable. Actually, it is slightly less efficient than a pure electric car, because of the dead weight of the gasoline motor during electric-power only operation. Having said that, I agree that steam driven automobiles are interesting. The last generation of steam automobiles from the late 1920s turned on quickly because they had small boilers and a large flame. Combusion was clean & complete, so these cars can easily today's rigorous emmission tests. That is according to Jay Leno, who owns one. (Leno is an expert in automobiles, and writes a column in Popular Mechanics.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 10:13:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MHCw7q011568; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:12:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MHCvCA011558; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:12:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:12:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=Igexdj/fEMc6GzOF6cayNsRUdhAoqe86pv5EFddrMV30gumk38D5BOHw5ZSBk1Ux4cVw29sVbE3M4eY2zAgyI8FmdEZHT+j+JbOfzwZwHk18HoN4V0H3lUQcYaZ10it8Ih//Uo3Gn0Cswa7KC/baMEl6sK+tne6cbThfqoCaAmY=; X-YMail-OSG: 1x8kBS4VM1n2NEI9mEX3RkJ0qK4DYfeQ1MwJboKWG5ur06xedSPVFyAcnlM8k7JEDKMxmM7LPg-- Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:12:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <1875320.1177260908912.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <331898.38824.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74456 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > That is incorrect. There is a huge unused generating > capacity at night -- more than enough to charge up > electric cars. Capacity is not the problem. CO2 is still emitted at night. > Furthermore, electric power generation and electric cars are far much efficient than gasoline cars, You are not paying attention! You missed the entire point of the post! The six-cycle engine, which was what the essay was about, is proving to be far more efficient (Carnot ~ 60%) than any steam plant anywhere in the world. It is all about efficiency. Why else would I speculate that grid steam plants themselves will probably eventually use a version of this same small mass produced engine? We all simply must try to stay abreast of advances in technology, if we wish to make effective decisions in such a critically important arena. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 04:22:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MBM3oS029037; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:22:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MBM2YU029025; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:22:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:22:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=aHFS1JIeVt/J4Ow9fw+CDM4wu2vRSVukjOAH+EgdcUPVpAgX5qFpvjAI9g4g4U0krR3bgFrRCZEhis9pshyeC0K7j4SCfNAFbIg61GpJrkLU+p+65CYXIHqOubitsSRuDCKWZaJtFc5HGcgbUNZ/t60QbOv14/5E+UtABrkKwm8=; X-YMail-OSG: kpIOz3QVM1lkkncN2LTVvhI.vWMGmNrWstaaukd0bieHhsrJte5bxSbhq.4F_CkWb_4JHExucw-- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.10 Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:21:59 -0700 (PDT) From: PHILIP WINESTONE Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-392280208-1177240919=:42912" Message-ID: <311262.42912.qm@web88010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74439 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: --0-392280208-1177240919=:42912 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nicely said Jeff.=0A=0AP.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jeff Fin= k =0ATo: vortex-l@eskimo.com=0ASent: Sunday, April 22, 2007= 6:42:29 AM=0ASubject: [Vo]:Global Warning=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A = =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0AThe= headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said,=0A=93GLOBAL WARNIN= G- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme=0Aweather could k= ill 1 million people by 2100=85=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AI am greatly concerned= about the =93global warming hysteria=94=0Athat is being foisted upon the p= ublic. I recall a news caster six weeks before=0Asaying that Europe had ju= st experienced the=0Awarmest autumn in 500 years. Do you realize what that= means? It means that=0A500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activi= ty had nothing to do with=0Ait! It is well known to some historians that t= he period from 900 to 1100 AD=0Awas also warmer than today by about three d= egrees, and human activity had=0Anothing to do with that either! Mars is e= ven heating up. I can=92t wait=0Ato be told what part of my lifestyle is c= ausing the Martian heat wave!=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AThere are mammoths froze= n in the Siberian tundra with flesh still intact,=0Aand tropical vegetation= in their mouths. When discovered in the 1800=92s,=0Athe meat was still ed= ible! The stuff in my freezer isn=92t fit to eat after=0Afive years. So, ho= w old can these animals be? Clearly, Siberia =0Awas a tropical climate in= the recent past. That warm period cannot possibly be=0Athe fault of the h= uman race.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AScientists know these things, but they are = being threatened to shut up=0Aabout it. There are many scientists who disa= gree with the hypothesis that we=0Aare causing global warming, but they are= becoming less vocal as they consider=0Athe loss of funding and loss of car= eer if they continue to say what they really=0Abelieve. Heidi Cullen of th= e Weather Channel recently said that any weather=0Aperson who did not belie= ve in =93global warming=94 should be fired! =0AThe coercion continues!=0A = =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AIn the late 70=92s the media was scaring us with predicti= ons from=0Areputable researchers about the coming ice age. These scientist= s were not=0Aidiots. Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 y= rs? =0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AIs there some kind of agenda here? There sure i= s! With our public=0Aschool children forced to watch Al Gore=92s movie ove= r and over again, and=0Ahis recent rant before Congress, he has herded the = US leadership and general=0Apopulation into a vulnerable position. He can n= ow, with his established=0Abusiness enterprises, corral billions of dollars= from gullible people by=0Aselling them bogus carbon credits!=0A =0A=0A = =0A =0A=0AWe are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhous= e=0Agases, including CO2. Plants and trees love CO2. They must have it to= =0Asurvive. They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three ti= mes=0Ahigher. Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their gree= n houses=0Ato dramatically increase growth rates. =0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0ACO= 2 is the natural byproduct of combustion. It is a direct measure of=0Aa ci= vilization=92s prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of=0AC= O2, the higher the standard of living. For us to significantly reduce CO2= =0Aemissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of li= fe. =0AThe resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately = cause more=0Adeath and destruction than =93global warming=94.=0A =0A=0A = =0A =0A=0AThrough the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there = is=0Anothing we can do about it. If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sne= ezes, we=0Afreeze. We are presently in a natural warming trend. It is arr= ogance to think=0Awe are causing it. If we are too puny to cause it, then = we are definitely too=0Apuny to fix it. We shouldn=92t live in fear. As l= ong as God has His hand=0Aon the sun=92s thermostat, we will be alright. B= ut, we live in an age=0Awhere much of the world=92s leadership and this for= um believe that we=0Aourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we = need.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AWe cannot save civilization by dismantling civil= ization. When humans=0Aendeavor to solve god sized problems by our own ina= dequate efforts, we can only=0Aexpect to create for ourselves a hell on ear= th. As the global warming issue=0Afinds its way into the legislative proce= ss we are on the verge of making some=0Areally bad laws that will hurt all = of us.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0ADon=92t misunderstand me. I=92m all for conser= vation,=0Aalternate energy, and getting off of oil dependency. I have spen= t thousands of=0Amy own dollars on PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying = to discover something=0Athat will help. But, let=92s not be stupid by maki= ng crippling decisions=0Athat will cause the human race to lose its hold on= civilization. We will only=0Ahave the resources to solve our problems whi= le working from a position of=0Aprosperity, not poverty.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A= =0AJeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace=0A Engineering VA Tech=0A =0A=0A =0A = =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ANo virus found in this outgoing message.=0A=0ACheck= ed by AVG Free Edition.=0A=0AVersion: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771= - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11:56 AM=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-392280208-1177240919=:42912 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nicely said Jeff.

P.

----- Original Message ----
= From: Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: = Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:42:29 AM
Subject: [Vo]:Global Warning

= =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

The headline in = my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said,=0A=93GLOBAL WARNING- If nothing= is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme=0Aweather could kill 1 million= people by 2100=85

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

I am greatly concerned about = the =93global warming hysteria=94=0Athat is being foisted upon the public.&= nbsp; I recall a news caster six weeks before=0Asaying that Europe had just= experienced the=0Awarmest autumn in 500 years.  Do you realize what t= hat means?  It means that=0A500 years ago it was warmer, and that huma= n activity had nothing to do with=0Ait!  It is well known to some hist= orians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD=0Awas also warmer than today by = about three degrees, and human activity had=0Anothing to do with that eithe= r!  Mars is even heating up.  I can=92t wait=0Ato be told what pa= rt of my lifestyle is causing the Martian heat wave!

=0A= =0A

 

=0A=0A

There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still int= act,=0Aand tropical vegetation in their mouths.  When discovered in th= e 1800=92s,=0Athe meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn=92t fi= t to eat after=0Afive years. So, how old can these animals be?   = Clearly, Siberia =0Awas a tropical climate in the recent past.  That w= arm period cannot possibly be=0Athe fault of the human race.<= /p> =0A=0A

=  

=0A=0A

Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened = to shut up=0Aabout it.  There are many scientists who disagree with th= e hypothesis that we=0Aare causing global warming, but they are becoming le= ss vocal as they consider=0Athe loss of funding and loss of career if they = continue to say what they really=0Abelieve.  Heidi Cullen of the Weath= er Channel recently said that any weather=0Aperson who did not believe in = =93global warming=94 should be fired! =0AThe coercion continues!

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the late 70=92s the media was scaring us with pred= ictions from=0Areputable researchers about the coming ice age.  These = scientists were not=0Aidiots.  Why has the story turned 180 degrees in= the past 20 yrs? 

=0A=0A

&n= bsp;

=0A=0A

Is there some kind of a= genda here?  There sure is!  With our public=0Aschool children fo= rced to watch Al Gore=92s movie over and over again, and=0Ahis recent rant = before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and general=0Apopulation i= nto a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established=0Abusiness ente= rprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by=0Aselling them = bogus carbon credits!

=0A=0A

 = ;

=0A=0A

We are being told that we = must reduce our production of greenhouse=0Agases, including CO2.  Plan= ts and trees love CO2.  They must have it to=0Asurvive.  They wou= ld grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three times=0Ahigher.  N= ursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green houses=0Ato dr= amatically increase growth rates. 

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

CO2 i= s the natural byproduct of combustion.  It is a direct measure of=0Aa = civilization=92s prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of= =0ACO2, the higher the standard of living.  For us to significantly re= duce CO2=0Aemissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quali= ty of life. =0AThe resulting downward spiral of the world economy coul= d ultimately cause more=0Adeath and destruction than =93global warming=94.<= /span>

=0A=0A

 

= =0A=0A

Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun coo= ls down, and there is=0Anothing we can do about it.  If the sun burps,= we burn; if the sun sneezes, we=0Afreeze.  We are presently in a natu= ral warming trend.  It is arrogance to think=0Awe are causing it. = ; If we are too puny to cause it, then we are definitely too=0Apuny to fix = it.  We shouldn=92t live in fear.  As long as God has His hand=0A= on the sun=92s thermostat, we will be alright.  But, we live in an age= =0Awhere much of the world=92s leadership and this forum believe that we=0A= ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need. =0A=0A

<= span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">  

=0A=0A

We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.  = When humans=0Aendeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate ef= forts, we can only=0Aexpect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.  = As the global warming issue=0Afinds its way into the legislative process we= are on the verge of making some=0Areally bad laws that will hurt all of us= .

=0A=0A

 

= =0A=0A

Don=92t misunderstand me.  I=92m all for = conservation,=0Aalternate energy, and getting off of oil dependency.  = I have spent thousands of=0Amy own dollars on PAGD and cavitation experimen= ts, trying to discover something=0Athat will help.  But, let=92s not b= e stupid by making crippling decisions=0Athat will cause the human race to = lose its hold on civilization.  We will only=0Ahave the resources to s= olve our problems while working from a position of=0Aprosperity, not povert= y.

=0A=0A

 

= =0A=0A

Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace=0A Engineerin= g VA Tech

=0A=0A

 <= /span>

=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A

No virus = found in this outgoing message.
=0AChecked by AVG Free Edition.
=0AVe= rsion: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11:5= 6 AM
=0A

=0A

--0-392280208-1177240919=:42912-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 11:43:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MIhibf008155; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:43:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MIhd50008112; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:43:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:43:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=C1pps0OHQM66zPitUQ0XIK2MxjpMkNXP0bdNI8oqzNjIFnVlcaxco6qcsEKBT6iN; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <29699570.1177267418442.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:43:38 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c4fd0c12602e92f42e5644cee0fc733efd4478bc14df4dbab350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74457 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >> That is incorrect. There is a huge unused generating >> capacity at night -- more than enough to charge up >> electric cars. > >Capacity is not the problem. CO2 is still emitted at >night. But as I said, only half of the generators are coal. The others are gas which is as much as 60% efficient and can be built close to cities, or hydro, nuclear and wind which emit no CO2. It would take a long time to increase nuclear capacity, but the U.S. could easily start building wind capacity at a rate equivalent to 4 nuclear power plants per year, which is what the world is doing. The power is intermittant but that does not matter for recharging cars overnight, with intelligent power meters. >The six-cycle engine, which was what the essay was >about, is proving to be far more efficient (Carnot ~ >60%) than any steam plant anywhere in the world. That is no more efficient than a combined cycle plant, although it might be cheaper. See: http://www.umweltbundesamt.at/fileadmin/site/umweltthemen/industrie/IPPC_Konferenz/Tauschitz.pdf Regarding hybrid automobile performance on highways, tests have shown that increasing the battery capacity does improve efficiency, especially on long hills. With today's Prius, you can see the battery saturate halfway up a large hill. (You shouldn't watch that display if you are driving -- it is worse than talking on a cell phone!) Plug-in hybrids have very large battery capacity. The 2008 model Prius is expected to have city gas mileage at about 100 mpg, compared to 60 mpg today. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 12:06:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MJ68Di001010; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:06:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MJ65fZ000984; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:06:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:06:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=WarWHZhhDNiiuMGSQ0WlI0r4u2tPXP3DGRPBOJaPDaZaal/Tjmd5W2aMPbSBPO7232Vj+zEZv1HoKg93TxTZvhyKPX8+ZH/G5sNxBXrwYeDe+ZBjzkl+ZR4dv/eLw/59bkOo926jnBMg6DscyU9Z0aWJ/utzLgFj/FjXcGPxMFs=; X-YMail-OSG: XiHMeXoVM1kh5DfFsZczmpkEH9BoMbMQvakMVGCK0cxT18d8G68XxzaTUM7P2ZSnh4RaTHzWbw-- Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:06:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <755002.47252.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6vOQOC.A.LP.dI7KGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74458 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Most efficient small diesel ? Status: O X-Status: A google search for the most efficient production diesel turns up many candidates overseas, but zero made in the USA. Ours are typically larger V8 designs of over 5 liters, used in trucks Among the best is a 35 year old engine design. The Peugeot 205 diesel (1.9 liter) of one respondent to a survey was made in 1991. He says it has 120k miles yet still gets over 60mpg on every tank -motorway (80mph) or round town even "towing a trailer I still get over 60 mpg." Very unscientific, but typical of other claims for this engine. If Michele is tuned-in, perhaps he would have some comment on this or other Euro-diesel engines. In the USA, we seem to have been really screwed, legislatively, by not having access to anything close. This engine, designed in the 1970's in France has a few quirks but is claimed by some to be by far the most efficient small diesel engine ever produced. VW also has a claim for that distinction in Germany and did import one into the USA 30 years ago, which nobody wanted then (hard to cold-start for one thing). Needless to say, both engines are now banned for import into the USA. Go figure. Well ... having some experience with Peugeots, they are generally not competitive quality-wise with the Japanese here anyway - but GM or Ford should at least be importing the engine, no ? I would think that if this design were converted to the 6-cycle steam version, and then fitted out as a single speed hybrid - it would get 75-80 mpg easy... This is the kind of thing GM needs for credibility - even if it is not a huge seller. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 12:37:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MJavn0022495; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:36:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MJauve022482; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:36:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:36:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; b=CVFifAkMKBbEXOplS8kakBJ+sg0v4+pTks/CEc/QvKE9chQJucIjjImeXhXsfPjtGBg6yLQpBqOvOLA93IEGEp3INUw0zeynxW2b2PEDuyQOlOtU4dkOONrLB3qfctfO4Ltvi3KAs1T0fQpHSaz72O0EUD5Y9Zwvrs94/J9J8xM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; b=VawvADTEQ7beFmEkt0AX+iZ8mr8dlQ+kXjOIeueKg9pRoUqN5OeVPW1bQG90xUaP1G+pG+Rfkp0CPZiqFZpiQq7KpZaL/Ey0CQSxIqUJjmWtcoGhcjsIHwuFb1vwAlSbK/5JKULBaurJU16vDNeoGjD03vVaYAHhauOpMa+ZTM4= Message-ID: <462BB94C.7060702@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:36:44 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Googles "Earth day" icon References: <302236.32876.qm@web88011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020803000803070806020903" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74459 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020803000803070806020903 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Google as usual has a cool icon. Today's Earth day. 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(8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MJn3PN014069; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:49:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:49:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=ReA6EYUN4EGRwxQQgXxavLOJQoxIDmTMtOpSRRpzdIRwxDT27Eia2awm7d61ByqrQyDtcbNoCZdTfgDLoJj3pgVveYQlKqARWfOieua0f5JaShqJYK/XOc+HnSD4JjjDpF/hkQCCtjOZ+3+gUkdJiFLdjSiKxBMGR9o7u1VpdNU=; X-YMail-OSG: B47sfhsVM1mTTjTNwd9LGmwxn4Ud5Z1PNOzrcAT92AcEUuZuyOoXe3QOXfFecfidPcMIoQ-- Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:49:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer? To: Jed Rothwell , vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <29699570.1177267418442.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <565920.49345.qm@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74460 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > The others are gas [natural gas] which is as much as 60% efficient > and can be built close to cities... That number would only happen with co-genration, but - OK - lets assume that it is just as accurate as the estimate for the Crower 6-cycle. Even so - when you send that power across 10-20 miles of lossy conductor, and then through at least 4 transformers (probably more), what had initially looked like a 60% number back at the power plant is now down to 50% or less at your garage. But the worst is yet to come. Even the best batteries will return only 75% of the power put into them. Therefore when evaluating the net carbon which must be burned to get a certain amount of torque at the wheels, the figure which must be used for the plug-in hybrid, is .75 x .50, which is only 37.5% net efficiency - and that is even when the power plant operates at 60% Carnot. OTOH - when we are presented with the option of a 6-cycle-steam ICE diesel, which can also operate at that lofty effiicency of 60% Carnot - in that case there are no losses like the conductor and transformer and battery losses. The bottom line is that the ultra-efficient steam 6-cycle diesel is FAR preferable to the plug-in hybid in terms of net carbon released. Cost may be another issue, since transportation fuel bears a high tax burden, and since utilities have a lot of buying-power - but that is totally artificial and as far as policy decisions go - "on a level playing field" there is NO valid comparison: the plug-in hybrid makes zero sense at all - if the efficiency of the small diesel is in the same range as the efficiency of the power plant - which is the claim. There will be those who say that Bruce Crower's design is not yet proved at the level of the automobile. Until a major player gets involved, this will remain the problem. We need on-the-road experience and data. After all, he may be a good mechanic and a great inventor, but like all inventors he is a "Crower", so to speak ... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 13:55:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MKtRrS031221; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:55:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MKtPnW031210; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:55:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:55:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Induction Heating of Earth X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20070422205525.2EF078A1A0@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74461 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a concise description of the amount of solar radiation received by the earth from the sun. These are figures most vorts are probably familiar with. http://home.iprimus.com.au/nielsens/solrad.html A short quote from this site: "The energy intercepted by the Earth over a period of one year is equal to the energy emitted by the Sun in just 14 milliseconds. To put it another way, solar energy captured by the Earth over a period of 1000 years is equal to the energy produced by the Sun in just only 14 seconds." All of this would be electromagnetic radiation of various wavelengths and obviously the amount intercepted would be proportionate to the square of the distance from the sun. But an idea has been rattling around in my head for the past year or so, and I'm afraid I simply don't have the knowledge of physics or the related math to quantify it. As has been rather dramatically demonstrated of late, the sun is subject to huge magnetic storms, indicating that the sun's net magnetic field may vary substantially. Does it? If this is the case, the sun would have a heating effect on the earth not attributable to the small amount of EM radiation intercepted by the earth. The varying magnetic field of the sun would subject the earth to a tranfer of energy by a near- field effect not proportional to the square of the distance, but by electromagnetic induction. The earth and other planets, depending on their magnetic fields and electrical conductivity, would absorb a much higher percentage of the energy emitted by the sun in this fashion. I really don't know how even to speculate on how much energy could be transferred to the earth in this fashion, but it's food for thought, no? I could be that this is what keeps the molten metallic core of the earth hot. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 14:51:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MLpIH3014921; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:51:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MLpHTV014906; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:51:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:51:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=VIxXNdRY5/vP6oyrIJ97mHbS2M8gEKKGnbQ14Rq3v9J+3hvPwAxocm1lKiBwgb2h; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <32397926.1177278676877.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:51:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c4fd0c12602e92f42967f601f02f8135f3a08ccdba7fc34b0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74462 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >> The others are gas [natural gas] which is as much as >60% efficient >> and can be built close to cities... > >That number would only happen with co-genration . . . That is combined cycle, not co-gen. With co-gen you can get 80% or 90%, depending on the location and time of year. I.e., in downtown Sapporo in the middle of winter with an advanced gas generator you get back 90%. >Even so - when you send that power across 10-20 miles >of lossy conductor, and then through at least 4 >transformers (probably more), what had initially >looked like a 60% number back at the power plant is >now down to 50% or less at your garage. The T&D losses (transmission and distribution) are not as bad as that. Over the average delivery distance, which is hundreds of miles in the U.S. I think, in the early 1990s T&D losses were about 8% and they were expected to fall to around 5% by now. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf >Even the best batteries will return only 75% of the >power put into them. More like 80% today. But in any case, even with a highly efficient Diesel or steam ICE, it is still far more efficient to use a hybrid design, for the recovery of braking energy and so on. It might as well be a plug-in hybrid. For one thing, the cost of coal or nuclear energy is 10 times cheaper than oil per megajoule. >Therefore when evaluating the net carbon which must be >burned to get a certain amount of torque at the >wheels . . . This brings up another important point. At start up speeds, up to 10 mph, the torque from an electric motor beats a steam engine, and really beats a diesel or standard ICE. >Cost may be another issue, since transportation fuel >bears a high tax burden . . . Oil is far more expensive than coal or nuclear power aside from any tax considerations. Plus, oil is subsidized by the cost of the Iraq war, $1 or $2 trillion and counting (taking into account the long term costs). >"on a level >playing field" there is NO valid comparison: the >plug-in hybrid makes zero sense at all - if the >efficiency of the small diesel is in the same range as >the efficiency of the power plant - which is the >claim. On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid improves diesel performance as much as any other motor. There is no reason to make them mutually exclusive. Why settle for a 60 mpg diesel when you can bump it up to 120 mpg with a hybrid? - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 15:42:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MMfuKC003370; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:41:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MMftsc003349; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:41:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:41:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=csBYNShnHpS+6UbjT4stU1xlJMU9Oa4QD2bsyVnS/1XYLTUkZI+Nw00qVavt8KCJntqjeFnLGksk5pqnMvvjvF6XfwRNwPRUyjaECed4mPxOusmk0sNQFWUqEyFlIv7Roh5ow9+2ShvKpNxSvOCpRF+HuOgXOXrY6yOVcAJ+a2g=; X-YMail-OSG: rx8QnngVM1nyLKnQCH2oUYnRnC6MwUxic6_lYhT15xxefv4ZHcX.14or4n2tLRW8AO6ntySdnw-- Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <32397926.1177278676877.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <881315.85261.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <4QVaxB.A.P0.yS-KGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74463 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed > On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid > arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid > improves diesel performance as much as any other > motor. Exactamundo - no contrario ! You must have misunderstood my intent (or more likely it was too hastily posted) if you thought that this was not my exact message (with the possible refinement of the 6-cycle steam diesel, in place of the normal diesel. The hybrid setup actually improves the diesel ICE efficiency far BETTER than it does the gasoline alternative, since a diesel is very sensitive to single speed (RPM) optimization. The 6-cycle efficiency of >50% would only be possible at at single engine speed - ergo the hybrid is absolutely necessary to reach that efficiency goal. Jones BTW - for those who may want to look into this - the Crower patent is on shakey ground. 6-cycle engines have actually been used for over 100 years for locomotives and ship engines. There is even a separate patent sub-class for 6-cycle engines. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 15:52:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3MMqBQ0009074; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:52:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3MMq9hE009061; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:52:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:52:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=IWBGQZbt9mdpJtUKnFo81AZLoSO1rGu7CDEte58LOOwG4T3h0X6rYxhz4txA8vlUEqNDtgWDAdetC/beXo4QxEC98ea2e9rzO9BeTSvevT2kiMomIF032ELemYAlskZ6CM9Z0hKsJSp3Ef+Rmg54YqmDgAmk12Ws8E6f+fofJaY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=thfGQbc5fpbITRosLllAtkNaTIVPqpINrChcoB6hozVnvzJcm4iFO+oXK0f7+FbwrktwZdg8chN/lX0W/UuYFT3XUUhuLFWrBwujChB5J6gcTkaIFXD1zlZdm7ycBreDvJoSENyegDgDcA1Zi1SXH7/GjmkV9EuKdK0qc5JgdUo= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:52:09 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortex-digest@eskimo.com, "hermajohn@gmail.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_101608_8304638.1177282329885" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74464 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Real world BBGB #225 Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_101608_8304638.1177282329885 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., Can anyone let us know.... BBGB .... (A) what is-are the battery pack in the Prius automobile??? (B) Watts...weight .... (C) Electric motor... type..... HP... weight??? (D) WILL anyone let us know the actual parameters ...for of... or ... with The general :: i] HP for electric motor ii] parameter[s] battery pack... type... eg... N MH or other...? iii] Gas engine iv] Generator:::: Energy budget Total weight Brake type and method Regeneration[s] type method RPM... and other HMMM???.... Are these questions too difficult for the owners of the Prius auto??? HMMM??? Can or could this be made more effective???? I hope to hear some or read some answers.... OR ........... is this too difficult? HJ Thanks to John Steck: ------=_Part_101608_8304638.1177282329885 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Vo.,
 
   Can anyone let us know.... BBGB ....
 
(A)   what is-are the battery pack in the Prius automobile???
(B)    Watts...weight ....
(C)     Electric motor... type..... HP... weight???
(D)   WILL anyone let us know the actual parameters ...for  of... or ... with
           The general ::
 
            i]  HP for electric motor
            ii]  parameter[s] battery pack... type... eg... N MH or other...?
             iii]   Gas engine
           iv]   Generator::::
 
              Energy budget
 
              Total weight
 
                Brake type and method
 
              Regeneration[s] type method RPM... and other    HMMM???....
 
 
         Are these questions too difficult for the owners of the Prius auto???
 
           HMMM???
 
          Can or could this be made more effective????
 
         I hope to hear some or read some answers....
OR ...........  is this too difficult?
 
             HJ
 
 Thanks to John Steck:
------=_Part_101608_8304638.1177282329885-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 20:41:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3N3fICs027506; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:41:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3N3fGqj027492; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:41:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:41:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Real world BBGB #225 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:41:12 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.1.98] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 23 Apr 2007 03:41:12 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74465 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to john herman's message of Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:52:09 -0400: Hi John, [snip] >Dear Vo., > > Can anyone let us know.... BBGB .... > >(A) what is-are the battery pack in the Prius automobile??? A five second web search on "prius tech. specs" yields:- http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/priustechspecs.html http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1945973,00.asp http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2007/toyota/prius/specifications/ http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0703_hybrid_cars/ and a direct search on prius at toyota yielded: http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation, Cooperation (communism) provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 23:37:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3N6bCGs023937; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:37:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3N6b9e5023913; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:37:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:37:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462C53FB.40906@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:36:43 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning References: <237186.75433.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <237186.75433.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3-w_sB.A.j1F.UQFLGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74466 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: > Not only that, but Jeff didn't deny that global warming wasn't > happening (although that in itself is questionable - if we're > "allowed" to question the sacred GW Scriptures); he was simply saying > that the evidence (evidence, mind you) is that global warming has > happened before and will happen again. Aside from anything else, I > find the arrogance, on many levels, of the > Global-warming-as-a-religion crowd, utterly insufferable. Definitely > worth fighting, if only for that reason. > I agree. Dennis Prager has been interviewing other climate scientists who question G W on his program. I have previously mentioned Avery and Singer's Unstoppable Global Warming, every 1600 years. Then there are the charts shown in the video that I posted which show that ocean warming happens first, then atmospheric CO2 rises, a result just the opposite of what Algore contends, We've had some prime examples of G W zealots posting on this thread, and I think their arrogance rises to the level of insufferable. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 22 23:48:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3N6mdFS027830; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:48:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3N6mbie027813; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:48:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:48:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462C55D3.7080907@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:44:35 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal' References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74467 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote: > "Evidence For Human-caused Global Warming Is Now 'Unequivocal'" > February 2, 2007 I agree, what we are discussing is the cause. I contend that we are seeing the convergence of several factors, solar irradiance, volcanic activity, and possibly a change in the aether, all of which are contributing to the observed increase in temperature. If you think it's hot now, just stick around, see Revelation 16. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 00:16:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3N7GZ8e005011; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:16:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3N7GYHg004993; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:16:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:16:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=T+68AK25Mz4G4ayIAr0OfDJzUgt1c5iGcdrpubaxudQgvgIAwCD1/CfB8IBjwdlO/NxsVHpsdNiGJp6DuI/ogFyXKLvEOF93FspD3gTcwPA27TJbEMx4z/wzipxGGcxdN4U959BqcPDfn2sZqcOUnxvlESZ9lBUS30cPAxdcrdo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=INl35Y3JG7x4UddqAQo2mHjZWyRipzJ/yG8uAEqBHayBs5DU14VBVjLXEckCkRy+v7mcC/+0PE5wepooB6liVDOpNMKfAzvCb3Nu568KqMYbdDW1ukW2f9KIEP6+WrbvJye9iweG72gs139tbGcLtG/U/XOea383I3igO4v+bHw= Message-ID: <357653710704230016x293ef0f2s4a1977bf7da2802a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:16:28 +0200 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_132250_33214002.1177312588448" X-Google-Sender-Auth: 38c73a684dca48cc Resent-Message-ID: <89vWM.A.0NB.R1FLGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74468 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Forces in refraction effects Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_132250_33214002.1177312588448 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am really disappointed at Wikipedia users for not having anything on the Fizeau effect. It is intuitive and logical. Anyway I wonder if there is a force on a transparent medium as a beam enters it from a region of lower refractive index. Since the beam is slowed down I just assume there would be. This seems like a trivial problem but I don't have time to think now:-) If anyone can affirm this then we have a good clue to some astronomical riddles. David ------=_Part_132250_33214002.1177312588448 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am really disappointed at Wikipedia users for not having anything on the Fizeau effect. It is intuitive and logical.

Anyway I wonder if there is a force on a transparent medium as a beam enters it from a region of lower refractive index. Since the beam is slowed down I just assume there would be. This seems like a trivial problem but I don't have time to think now:-)

If anyone can affirm this then we have a good clue to some astronomical riddles.

David



------=_Part_132250_33214002.1177312588448-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 02:04:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3N94I3m006826; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:04:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3N94Gbr006815; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:04:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:04:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007201c78586$61d13180$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <755002.47252.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Most efficient small diesel ? Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:04:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74469 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, I am not an expert, all I can tell is that diesel cars of all sizes have = become much more popular than gasoline cars over here in Europe, because = gazole is considerably less expensive than gasoline, plus consumption is = lower, plus the engine lasts longer, plus more recent models pollute = less than same power gas models I am told. Japanese cars also have a = good reputation over here, and most of them have an excellent diesel = version. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:06 PM Subject: [Vo]:Most efficient small diesel ? >A google search for the most efficient production > diesel turns up many candidates overseas, but zero > made in the USA. Ours are typically larger V8 designs > of over 5 liters, used in trucks >=20 > Among the best is a 35 year old engine design. The > Peugeot 205 diesel (1.9 liter) of one respondent to a > survey was made in 1991. He says it has 120k miles yet > still gets over 60mpg on every tank -motorway (80mph) > or round town even "towing a trailer I still get over > 60 mpg."=20 >=20 > Very unscientific, but typical of other claims for > this engine. If Michele is tuned-in, perhaps he would > have some comment on this or other Euro-diesel > engines. In the USA, we seem to have been really > screwed, legislatively, by not having access to > anything close. >=20 > This engine, designed in the 1970's in France has a > few quirks but is claimed by some to be by far the > most efficient small diesel engine ever produced. VW > also has a claim for that distinction in Germany and > did import one into the USA 30 years ago, which nobody > wanted then (hard to cold-start for one thing). > Needless to say, both engines are now banned for > import into the USA. Go figure.=20 >=20 > Well ... having some experience with Peugeots, they > are generally not competitive quality-wise with the > Japanese here anyway - but GM or Ford should at least > be importing the engine, no ? >=20 > I would think that if this design were converted to > the 6-cycle steam version, and then fitted out as a > single speed hybrid - it would get 75-80 mpg easy... > This is the kind of thing GM needs for credibility - > even if it is not a huge seller. >=20 > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 02:45:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3N9jNFj026239; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:45:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3N9jLjF026216; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:45:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:45:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 05:44:58 -0400 Message-ID: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C7856A.87A3B930" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AceFjA5Ch5kD+ouZSrCiIjNhlBy1pA== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74470 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C7856A.87A3B930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of =93global = warming=94. He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and = you buy it as gospel. =20 There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility = of some on this forum scares me. =20 It has been much warmer not so long ago. =20 Here is another example if your attention span will allow: =20 We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 = to 5000 feet. They like it cool and moist, but don=92t like extreme sub = freezing temps or strong winds. =20 There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet. They are exhibited in place = in excavated pits. I saw them. But, they looked a little strange. They = did not look entirely like rock. I asked about it at the visitor=92s = center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized.=20 John. The rest is WOOD! =20 John. How old aren=92t they? =20 Back in the 50=92s, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought = one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. I saw it on = display outside at Disneyland around 1995. It was located right next to the = lake near Adventure Land. Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be = able to see it if it hasn=92t rotted away by now. =20 There are many things about this planet=92s history that don=92t line up = with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive = mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data. =20 Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in = the late 70=92s. =20 =20 It=92s ironic that many global warming events this past season were = cancelled due to extreme winter conditions. =20 Jeff =20 P.S. =20 John. This is only my third post in over a year. I read your stuff, and = you post almost everyday. You could give me the courtesy of reading all of = what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out = specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened. =20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C7856A.87A3B930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions = off of “global warming”.  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now = the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.

 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, = and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me.

 

It has been much warmer not so long = ago.

 

Here is another example if your attention span will = allow:

 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but = don’t like extreme sub freezing temps or strong = winds.

 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the = Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in = excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They = did not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor’s = center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. =

John. The rest is WOOD!  =

John. How old aren’t = they?

 

Back in the 50’s, before this site was = protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her = husband.  I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land.  Those of you who get to Disneyland = may still be able to see it if it hasn’t rotted away by = now.

 

There are many things about this planet’s = history that don’t line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into = making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical = data.

 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we = were threatened with in the late 70’s.  =

 

It’s ironic that many global warming events = this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter = conditions.

 

Jeff

 

P.S.

 

John. This is only my third post in over a = year.  I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me = the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an = idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be = enlightened.

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 = 8:18 PM

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C7856A.87A3B930-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 04:12:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NBC3cb015634; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:12:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NBC1MH015621; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:12:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:12:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qyUj1q5DwOBLOrJyiyA3wGF8p1/pgP9Pj3P3K+aoJ3QqUmmq+Q2V/AIcd3LHUmLf1HehYO0zG0CiJafih8N3Q6q49NIgrKPksniO20QnFQrnMvNTQF2FJlmqHDxhRyU8piUlzTN5rFJ6NJXd+MqXT4PJIhpw7WEqbABfSmhod+k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=PVwCia7MpuVR3yg1OJvDPuIMpx5nTan1/8QCz8HJOz7oj5rJBXPR2pZXpc/aG6gdz0uN1uiobc2YfbLstvm/bd+mA/q5U3wBnFrxsm37tkKc+J0bg9EsF4CLz70Q5YMM54eWsjK2QLTPkz4ozsGhoog0EqUwZiX1MmKSBzqI234= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:11:58 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW In-Reply-To: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_152889_24081917.1177326718114" References: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74471 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_152889_24081917.1177326718114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There are plenty of out of place things around the world and warm temperatures in the past few thousand years only explains a few of them. With ice and snow vanishing (really old stuff) I do think there is evidence for this warming to be real and significant. With the CO2 linked so clearly to temperature I think it's risky to ignore this. There is simply more evidence that warming is happening than not, in fact few are doubting that it's happening they just argue it's happened before or that the cause isn't man made. I came across a webpage the other day by chance that made some very very good argument for the world being effected by a supervolcaino and IIRC that was the cause of the middle ages warm patch. In the end I have heard of lots of theories, and the thing that convinces me that it is right to follow the mainstream (something i seldom do) is this: War caused by oil. Pollution caused by oil. Assholes supported by oil, and I don't just mean Arab ones. Quite frankly George Bush is enough reason for me. And then there is the fact that I do research in the field of alternative energy, shouldn't the question be why you on a FE based list support oil? Even if there isn't yet global warming by any cause doesn't it seem like it might be a good idea not to blindly pollute the world just because you theorize it hasn't well and truly fucked us yet? I guess in the end if I agree (imagine I tip the balance either way) with conventional global warming then the worst that can happen is a cleaner greener society that kicked a dirty habit before it became (too) deadly. (That's if it isn't yet happening or even if unlimited pollution from oil would never be an environmental disaster) If however they are right and I propose you can't know they aren't and I turn my back on conventional global warming (And support oil), then it's the end of the world. (or the end of the world as we know it and the end for many life forms, probably not humans) Given those stakes I just don't see the point in arguing, the main economic interest is in keeping oil and wars for oil going. I like a contrarian point of view as much or more than the next member of this list but you are asking me to back Oil grubbing war mongering republicans like Bush over the Greens, sorry I just don't buy it. I would put it to you that while you may doubt Global Warming you can't be sure it isn't happening and whatever the cause you can't deny that cutting CO2 levels (which have been artificially raised by man) may help. If you were saying you believe more investigation is needed I'd agree with you, if you wanted to look at other theories for the cause I'd agree but you are attacking people who are arguing that we shouldn't pollute the earth. (and except for the fear that it might dilute the message to those who barely give a f*ck I am actively interested in other possible causes as long as it remains out of view of the public who don't need to be given a mixed message) WTF is wrong with people, honestly with wars and governments manipulating people with fake terrorist attacks (the rigged votes) isn't it just a bit odd there are so many people fighting against people asking that we find a better source of power and not pollute our planet. With all that's going on people are attacking the greens, can someone explain this to me! Do you wear a cowboy hat? Ok, sorry for the harsh words which are a result of frustration but can you please explain your pro pollution fuck with nature stance because I don't even slightly get it. Please no kidding I really do want to understand. BTW I don't post nearly enough for you to be reading me every day, but oh well. I did read your post in it's entirety. On 4/23/07, Jeff Fink wrote: > > Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global > warming". He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever > and you buy it as gospel. > > > > There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of > some on this forum scares me. > > > > It has been much warmer not so long ago. > > > > Here is another example if your attention span will allow: > > > > We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to > 5000 feet. They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing > temps or strong winds. > > > > There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at > Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet. They are exhibited in place in > excavated pits. I saw them. But, they looked a little strange. They did > not look entirely like rock. I asked about it at the visitor's center, and > was told that they are only 50% fossilized. > > John. The rest is WOOD! > > John. How old aren't they? > > > > Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one > of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. I saw it on display > outside at Disneyland around 1995. It was located right next to the lake > near Adventure Land. Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able > to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now. > > > > There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with > present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes > by selectively ignoring certain historical data. > > > > Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in > the late 70's. > > > > It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were > cancelled due to extreme winter conditions. > > > > Jeff > > > > P.S. > > > > John. This is only my third post in over a year. I read your stuff, and > you post almost everyday. You could give me the courtesy of reading all of > what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out > specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened. > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 > 8:18 PM > ------=_Part_152889_24081917.1177326718114 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There are plenty of out of place things around the world and warm temperatures in the past few thousand years only explains a few of them.

With ice and snow vanishing (really old stuff) I do think there is evidence for this warming to be real and significant.
With the CO2 linked so clearly to temperature I think it's risky to ignore this.

There is simply more evidence that warming is happening than not, in fact few are doubting that it's happening they just argue it's happened before or that the cause isn't man made.

I came across a webpage the other day by chance that made some very very good argument for the world being effected by a supervolcaino and IIRC that was the cause of the middle ages warm patch.

In the end I have heard of lots of theories, and the thing that convinces me that it is right to follow the mainstream (something i seldom do) is this:
War caused by oil.
Pollution caused by oil.
Assholes supported by oil, and I don't just mean Arab ones.
Quite frankly George Bush is enough reason for me.
And then there is the fact that I do research in the field of alternative energy, shouldn't the question be why you on a FE based list support oil?

Even if there isn't yet global warming by any cause doesn't it seem like it might be a good idea not to blindly pollute the world just because you theorize it hasn't well and truly fucked us yet?

I guess in the end if I agree (imagine I tip the balance either way) with conventional global warming then the worst that can happen is a cleaner greener society that kicked a dirty habit before it became (too) deadly. (That's if it isn't yet happening or even if unlimited pollution from oil would never be an environmental disaster)

If however they are right and I propose you can't know they aren't and I turn my back on conventional global warming (And support oil), then it's the end of the world. (or the end of the world as we know it and the end for many life forms, probably not humans)

Given those stakes I just don't see the point in arguing, the main economic interest is in keeping oil and wars for oil going.
I like a contrarian point of view as much or more than the next member of this list but you are asking me to back Oil grubbing war mongering republicans like Bush over the Greens, sorry I just don't buy it.

I would put it to you that while you may doubt Global Warming you can't be sure it isn't happening and whatever the cause you can't deny that cutting CO2 levels (which have been artificially raised by man) may help.
If you were saying you believe more investigation is needed I'd agree with you, if you wanted to look at other theories for the cause I'd agree but you  are attacking people who are arguing that we shouldn't pollute the earth.
(and except for the fear that it might dilute the message to those who barely give a f*ck I am actively interested in other possible causes as long as it remains out of view of the public who don't need to be given a mixed message)

WTF is wrong with people, honestly with wars and governments manipulating people with fake terrorist attacks (the rigged votes) isn't it just a bit odd there are so many people fighting against people asking that we find a better source of power and not pollute our planet.
With all that's going on people are attacking the greens, can someone explain this to me!

Do you wear a cowboy hat?

Ok, sorry for the harsh words which are a result of frustration but can you please explain your pro pollution fuck with nature stance because I don't even slightly get it.

Please no kidding I really do want to understand.
BTW I don't post nearly enough for you to be reading me every day, but oh well.
I did read your post in it's entirety.


On 4/23/07, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:

Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.

 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me.

 

It has been much warmer not so long ago.

 

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:

 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.

 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized.

John. The rest is WOOD! 

John. How old aren't they?

 

Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land.  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.

 

There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.

 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the late 70's. 

 

It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.

 

Jeff

 

P.S.

 

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM


------=_Part_152889_24081917.1177326718114-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 04:57:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NBv2hv002087; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:57:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NBv1wE002077; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:57:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:57:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=QFguKvT2/4FBX+TEdU+/d9S8Hh9cKRMsx5bdSsCjr4N2K0dCVHBm+e71TP76llxivyL8H1nw0r/oCSbgK7WLz/GCLkLL53BLNEVn/rfqZk4QouXg2pnBX8bOz8KO2lG0GSPmqWYl4VRS6cWkuftQxUAYNwr0LYp2cuDas0UKoqk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=EKYMmy8ShgNMZ9uMr+QcEBUnKvUAZi1jYs4WGz1jDYJNocT76uYLGTI/lXQqcGfYT76UC+CFOt7koN+mxVAWZfe1sn3vMQW2JzyAZ1WG/QhfkeXufHbDmU3i9xa4zECvdcAZLQKG4t6cbrsCCE2sP4YeRr6i4eLyGQ652veBv4I= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:56:59 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW In-Reply-To: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_153556_17584305.1177329419599" References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74473 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_153556_17584305.1177329419599 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Balls. The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to) One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature. Technology can however. Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising? Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable. I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary. It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food. It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present. So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions. It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep. Truth isn't our friend, nor is light. Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies. It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing. On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: > > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly > refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph > that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the > Industrial Revolution. These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but > it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional > nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) > can make a killing. > > The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny > humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, > have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming. Like I > said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance. Perhaps > even try some solid science. > > P. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jeff Fink > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM > Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW > > Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global > warming". He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever > and you buy it as gospel. > > > > There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of > some on this forum scares me. > > > > It has been much warmer not so long ago. > > > > Here is another example if your attention span will allow: > > > > We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to > 5000 feet. They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing > temps or strong winds. > > > > There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at > Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet. They are exhibited in place in > excavated pits. I saw them. But, they looked a little strange. They did > not look entirely like rock. I asked about it at the visitor's center, and > was told that they are only 50% fossilized. > > John. The rest is WOOD! > > John. How old aren't they? > > > > Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one > of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. I saw it on display > outside at Disneyland around 1995. It was located right next to the lake > near Adventure Land . Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able > to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now. > > > > There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with > present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes > by selectively ignoring certain historical data. > > > > Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in > the late 70's. > > > > It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were > cancelled due to extreme winter conditions. > > > > Jeff > > > > P.S. > > > > John. This is only my third post in over a year. I read your stuff, and > you post almost everyday. You could give me the courtesy of reading all of > what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out > specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened. > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 > 8:18 PM > > ------=_Part_153556_17584305.1177329419599 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Balls.
The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.
Technology can however.

Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?
Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.

I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.
So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.
Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.

It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.


On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.

The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.

 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me.

 

It has been much warmer not so long ago.

 

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:

 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.

 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized.

John. The rest is WOOD! 

John. How old aren't they?

 

Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land .  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.

 

There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.

 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the late 70's. 

 

It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.

 

Jeff

 

P.S.

 

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM



------=_Part_153556_17584305.1177329419599-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 07:12:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NEBrZj011136; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:11:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NEBo9R011109; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:11:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:11:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=D3x0jIG5DQykTwFAdePRCBlvvP0aSMazPWbDD0/4O5l638992GhH3FBROlR6xvUGwoV4+nfWzauoyCj2Hj93vCChHHztiqhE4W8Hlj9jVcDjsleA/KVXJ1d7bKIQcja1lF1ixkXJ1f7p8leoWpzz4PjTS05omww54WzspBJrQ2k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=Lp6jN1bniAnm89RqhaCSU/gr0+qFyUgWBE1Q+AOfcBO+9eOwROPpG4C+ePdRrSCvBrX0p5Uj28ZCDNTbLwzLN7pG+ZZEoXAj4dCmq6Oki7e2aC2VIls/OaAw+9I3iXG/iRYn7/mShicF1K1/p3zqNm7AfcrfbwAtAG5mUyanHvk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 02:11:48 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_155922_12444406.1177337508215" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74474 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_155922_12444406.1177337508215 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism. There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the other is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types, helping nature with a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side of pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely fuck with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age. Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I find it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better ways exist) But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW may be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing CO2. The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming such as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to the ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us. But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else. But that doesn't invalidate it at all. The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that there couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a pretty irresponsible argument. Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove beyond a doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened in the past either. There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree. But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore it by throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate Gore and side with Bush, are you high? Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me to believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid? You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and against alternative energy, are you a moron? Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, you like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even if they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it as a way to avoid guilt) I get all that but none of that is a reason to fight against this movement, even if you don't believe in GW you should still be for the movement because it aims to reduce CO2 (and oil pollution) and oil and be a boone for alternative energy. Please use a bit more responsibility and pragmatism, look at the whole picture. If you feel GW is being misused fight that misuse but don't fight for pollution. If you want to offer people more hope then find a better way to solve the problem, don't deny that any problem exists. ------=_Part_155922_12444406.1177337508215 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism.

There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the other is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,  helping nature with a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side of pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely fuck with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age.

Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I find it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better ways exist)

But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW may be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing CO2.
The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming such as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to the ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.
But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else.
But that doesn't invalidate it at all.

The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that there couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a pretty irresponsible argument.

Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove beyond a doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened in the past either.
There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree.
But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore it by throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate Gore and side with Bush, are you high?

Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me to believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?

You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and against alternative energy, are you a moron?

Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, you like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even if they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it as a way to avoid guilt)

I get all that but none of that is a reason to fight against this movement, even if you don't believe in GW you should still be for the movement because it aims to reduce CO2 (and oil pollution) and oil and be a boone for alternative energy.

Please use a bit more responsibility and pragmatism, look at the whole picture.
If you feel GW is being misused fight that misuse but don't fight for pollution.
If you want to offer people more hope then find a better way to solve the problem, don't deny that any problem exists.


------=_Part_155922_12444406.1177337508215-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 07:12:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NECOGX021659; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:12:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NECGah021605; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:12:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:12:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=e9RYkt4TJLQZmsUBnqRZm8eZjleCorjXVxmfw3ZFUBbQcKQarugCIBiZI06BJvHUFhWgHl/ka16cWY0GrFiNfLvnQuop+POZXW6A1j4XdeO68P0MLkNqpYP+NLTq7U7pEu3WiJiqaoGl/jqVe4LRLZdmjurbZXSFNzLLbeajeEM=; X-YMail-OSG: IKyHRpgVM1nt39leFedH8q_ZkarRx_PVs686BUBWj7BL_ZlZBTSeYdSsvceU85Wep9BGqiEj9bOKCZBeXpTcWREhB_KAVyMvqoq9apXgUbzEMbzsyEO8gjs5OsBXyQ-- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:11:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]:Forces in refraction effects To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <357653710704230016x293ef0f2s4a1977bf7da2802a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <816252.92201.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74475 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- David Jonsson wrote: > I am really disappointed at Wikipedia users for not > having anything on the Fizeau effect. It is intuitive and logical. ... and generally in the USA, the more general effect goes by another name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect ... or are you referring to something else? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 07:36:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NEaCrr022438; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:36:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NEaBHo022419; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:36:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:36:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=H2izEKoUb9Cc/z26oXpEFK6VvDiaFcc8shMZc6A0Vg7dDbMhJiX7V/CLVSevrvQR2IWPSvYPIQgbnfFUxreUMdcZ9tZK5V8F7VlxnGH78HnLmGaS/6H0SNXOLu+z6qn2Cj8RBNOojQpAf12LFq37pyg3K9zFt7GDiBPP7+Flrks= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VeQDkRPAkM09F1JptY50iDzld5vhmsMGE7KegSEYl9jQShO06ryzBJOdAPygQSi59120gZ2ATHpZdwFW6YYJb2ZhPh9y5ZU41CR/qIv1uyDoUxENwjsX7uqDPsi05Jf+g1HsL/ywV97PYiWSF6+gpYabqcB5Gl0XVWVakBUCfOU= Message-ID: <462CC44E.4010906@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:35:58 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> In-Reply-To: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74476 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No offense intended, but this topic is one of few that I take ***extremely*** seriously. I will be out right blunt and tell you that nearly all your statements are out right fuzzy logic --> Jeff Fink wrote: > Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of “global warming”. > He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you > buy it as gospel. Fuzzy logic. You really think Al Gore will make millions if not billion off global warming??? Gee, it couldn't be because Mr. Gore is concerned. ... Just unbelievable ... ! [snip] > It has been much warmer not so long ago. Fuzzy logic. That's about as logical as --> "My op-amp output generates thermal noise that has no upper crest limit. Man, last week the noise suddenly jumped higher than my 1 uV signal. Therefore, this 1 uV signal couldn't possibly be the main signal because last week the voltage rose to 112 uV!" You recently posted, "I recall a news caster six weeks before saying that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years. Do you realize what that means? It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activity had nothing to do with it! It is well known to some historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than today by about three degrees" Take a look at all the global warming charts that go back to 1000 AD. There was no global warming between 1000 to 1100 AD, but even if Europe was hotter back then that in way insinuates man contributed CO2 is not the main causes of present global warming. Aren't you aware of the recent supercomputing simulations that utilizes every known related effect such as the way soils react? Were you aware the simulation shows how much man contributed CO2 will increase the planets temperature? Were you aware the simulation matches global warming charts? > There are many things about this planet’s history that don’t line up with > present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes > by selectively ignoring certain historical data. Listen, neither you or I are climate scientists. Therefore it's only logical to listen to the mass majority of PhD climate scientists. > Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the > late 70’s. Please show your references of leading climate scientists make such claims. > It’s ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled > due to extreme winter conditions. Are you aware that climate scientists predict global warming would indeed cause wicked weather? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 07:44:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NEhjTj002282; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:43:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NEhigJ002273; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:43:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:43:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NPPp1bD/C8UB+FTST2o+P8ZNaVOwgbxStBHfXYXqVUZACKHAXU6FY9SqKxLUzOSFWItIe1E6J5y4C0EXJLu2Uvg7OGh+/H3Z5fgv1n98cM3WKF3syi5GMcN+VRX+6Bo6u+s2NAeoCNL416h8ugPDzThhiS/MEdr3MtbGcZ9B58E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dVhcK+4FkTJCJ7d9buD8UQwIyZcc0d4WcDD/tnL4Uhiu/z1Mr/Axv+9kILdNRb/XYnd8OfFYkKJGORGdomGfhaFD0vG+7K1YsjdG9/2Q9zCsb/U0A5B/LVhMAvDMo0bx0stNOecuryiiC191o/yrtadiOgqIZOu4mGqi9piu+bE= Message-ID: <462CC614.9050109@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:43:32 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74477 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: --- > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution. These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing. > > The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming. Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance. Perhaps even try some solid science. --- What's sad the aforementioned chaps, as few as there are, ignore the recent vast supercomputer simulation project that includes every known related effect down to the dirty details, which clearly shows known CO2 emissions that occurred over the past century would increase the planets temperature in accordance to the 1000 year temperature chart. You should watch "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with Tom Brokaw" Regards, Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 08:05:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NF4mHP015012; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:04:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NF4jwN014987; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:04:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:04:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail0.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:04:42 -0400 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_7ffc59a7e7be3296ffe0bad7df4ac780" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070423150442.C642AAA5E4@mail0.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74478 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_7ffc59a7e7be3296ffe0bad7df4ac780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian > scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/ > mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" > graph that showed how much we puny humans have > influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution. > These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but > it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing > just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by > the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can > make a killing. > > The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, > is that we puny humans can influence natural solar > cycles, which like the above scientists, have been > largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming. > Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps > do a sun dance. Perhaps even try some solid science. > > P. > Certain facts can be perceived as inconvenient. As such, there is the real danger of succumbing to the convenience of proclaiming that God and/or the mysterious forces of Nature must actually be responsible for the recorded GW data since we, ourselves, must be so puny and insignificant in comparison. After all, how can puny and significant ants be held responsible for ANYTHING so heinous as GW. "I'm harmless." - To paraphrase a claim Rush Limbaugh once used in his own defense. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_7ffc59a7e7be3296ffe0bad7df4ac780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian
> scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/
> mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick"
> graph that showed how much we puny humans have
> influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.
> These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but
> it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing
> just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by
> the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can
> make a killing.
>
> The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here,
> is that we puny humans can influence natural solar
> cycles, which like the above scientists, have been
> largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.
> Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps
> do a sun dance. Perhaps even try some solid science.
>
> P.
>

Certain facts can be perceived as inconvenient.

As such, there is the real danger of succumbing to the convenience of procl= aiming that God and/or the mysterious forces of Nature must actually be res= ponsible for the recorded GW data since we, ourselves, must be so puny and = insignificant in comparison. After all, how can puny and significant ants b= e held responsible for ANYTHING so heinous as GW.

"I'm harmless."

- To paraphrase a claim Rush Limbaugh once used in his own defense.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


--=_7ffc59a7e7be3296ffe0bad7df4ac780-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 08:10:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NFA1Vx017236; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:10:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NF74ZO016121; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:07:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:07:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c785b6$84850280$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:48:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7858C.9B62AF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <9e6QPB.A.x7D.YuMLGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74479 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:[VO]; C&EN News 4/23/07 Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7858C.9B62AF40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0008_01C7858C.9B62AF40" ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C7858C.9B62AF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts,=20 " Cold Fusion makes its case in Chicago" by Steve Ritter, an article in = Chemical and Engineering News, is an interesting read, both in context = and construction. Context we understand. Construction is another. A careful study of = Ritter's composition of text is very revealing. Not by what is written = but by what is absent. The article misses being a perfect " country and = western song" which fails to include Mother, trains and prison.=20 What is "missing" in the article? The anticipation !. The article is = silently screaming out for the little kid to ask his Mother why the king = has no clothes. A front page science newspaper like C&EN reporting facts in cold fusion = research is like someone shouting from the back of the room. Everyone in = the audience hears and turns their head to see whats going on. Steve = Ritter is silent and fails to report the most important aspect of the = conference. Steve Krivit has his " New Energy Times" registered across the globe in = C&EN. He was given a respected honor, well deserved. Time for Jed = Rothwell et.al. LENR library work to be examined by Steve Ritter of = C&EN. He owes the science community a follow up. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C7858C.9B62AF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
" Cold Fusion makes its case in Chicago" by Steve Ritter, an = article in=20 Chemical and Engineering News, is an interesting read, both in = context=20 and construction.
Context we understand. Construction is another. A careful study of = Ritter's=20 composition of text is very revealing. Not by what is written=20 but by what is absent. The article misses being a = perfect "=20 country and western song" which fails to include Mother, = trains=20 and prison.
 
What is "missing" in the article?  The anticipation !. = The=20 article is silently screaming out for the little kid to ask his = Mother why=20 the king has no clothes.
 
A front page science newspaper like = C&EN reporting facts=20 in cold fusion research is like someone shouting from the back of the = room.=20 Everyone in the audience hears and turns their head to see whats going = on. Steve=20 Ritter is silent and fails to report the most important aspect of the=20 conference.
 
 Steve Krivit has his " New Energy Times" registered = across the=20 globe in C&EN. He was given a respected honor, well = deserved. Time=20 for Jed Rothwell et.al. LENR library work to be examined by Steve = Ritter of=20 C&EN. He owes the science community a follow up.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C7858C.9B62AF40-- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7858C.9B62AF40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000601c785b6$8421d3e0$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7858C.9B62AF40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 08:30:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NFU13H026369; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:30:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NFM1eu023266; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:22:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:22:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070423104318.0382be80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:22:06 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74480 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:The lessons of cold fusion applied to global warming Status: O X-Status: Let me repeat some of what I have said before. I do not know enough about the technical issues surrounding global warming to judge whether the effect is real or not, or -- assuming it is real -- whether it is caused by people, by nature, or by some combination of the two. However, I do know a lot about cold fusion, history, and human nature. One of the most important lessons of cold fusion is: Experts Are (usually) Right. This is contrary to the impression you might form reading about cold fusion in Nature or the New Scientist, but the fact is, real experts in electrochemistry, calorimetry, neutron detection and so on who did experiments or looked carefully at that data were easily convinced that cold fusion is real. Read the paper by Gerisher, for example, and you see that attending one conference was enough to convince a real expert. (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GerischerHiscoldfusi.pdf) The people who claim cold fusion is not real are mainly ignorant fools with no standing in the field, such as Robert Park, Gary Taubes and the editors of Nature. Park and the editors are knowledgeable about some things, but when it comes to cold fusion, they literally do not know what they are talking about. Another group of opponents is the plasma fusion scientists whose only concern is protecting their income. They resemble the coal industry flacks at the Greening Earth Society -- they are in it strictly for the money. For an outsider, the difficult thing is to know who is an expert, and who is not. You might try to evaluate the original sources yourself. But if you cannot understand the technical details, you have to assume that the majority of scientists who write about a topic really are experts. Both methods are dangerous! You should not assume that you are qualified to understand original sources, and you should not assume you can correctly identify experts. Both methods produce weak evidence at best. You can be far more certain about a when you see an experiment that produces, let us say, 50 megajoules of excess heat from a 1 gram sample with no chemical changes. You do not need any deep expert knowledge to know that is iron-clad proof. It is a shame we cannot produce such overwhelming evidence to support (or disprove) global warming. But in any case, when you rely on experts instead of evaluating the data yourself, the first thing you must do is exclude scientists from other fields, and non-scientists such as Taubes. Look for the majority opinion of researchers who work full-time on the subject, and who have performed experiments and published technical papers. If most of these people agree that X is true, X probably is true. Based on this standard, it is obvious that cold fusion is real, and it is safe to assume that global warming is also real. Incidentally, when you assume that bona fide experts are correct, you are NOT committing the "Appeal to Authority" logical fallacy. You do that only when you trust fake experts such as Robert Park. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 11:11:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NIBKOe030772; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:11:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NIBH56030746; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:11:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:11:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=mWgtE7gSKFrZI4q5GiVg45mNK9WUn8WrvRRhiZVA4MZYVitqSBpGX/RPpD2D4ae/dcaeCji6/Bf+gIOa/7AFjcZAADHkaQnqeSIYR2/e2VzJZY1cVk88HlxqJtA/4VwNNj6ZjJjqxqtbyQjRv7uH6dJCc5lhfB4gFNK+UnyBt6A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=eU2h4wd4cT1YLWXgZE/dVx4UhfvnkHvvTXXA5H0eiNhmKMFZR59xarBIFAlFybnscAgC29gk5wlt/nNRW/dYycj3jx7sTnb9URVSlsnozne4L7Lc3RsIruQP6lNideAgj+0mnEf1pHCNC+nH8eM+FvGRVJCZYCmgn10Rg9tFUgE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:11:15 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_110705_22203996.1177351875393" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74481 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Real world Flop ear mule Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_110705_22203996.1177351875393 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., Please read the portion of the text, below..... THEN.... please read comment that follows..... THEN.....PLEASE offer some contribution[s] as opposed to "rant", "guess" Theory..... AND: Please read embedded text[s] ..... ----------------->>>> >Therefore when evaluating the net carbon which must be >burned to get a certain amount of torque at the >wheels . . . (A) What carbon is produced if the sun is the power source? This brings up another important point. At start up speeds, up to 10 mph, the torque from an electric motor beats a steam engine, and really beats a diesel or standard ICE. (B) ............... According to WHAT-WHOM-OTHER ????? >Cost may be another issue, since transportation fuel >bears a high tax burden . . . (C) ...please see (A)..or "SUN" .... Oil is far more expensive than coal or nuclear power aside from any tax considerations. Plus, oil is subsidized by the cost of the Iraq war, $1 or $2 trillion and counting (taking into account the long term costs). >"on a level >playing field" there is NO valid comparison: the >plug-in hybrid makes zero sense at all - if the >efficiency of the small diesel is in the same range as >the efficiency of the power plant - which is the >claim. On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid improves diesel performance as much as any other motor. There is no reason to make them mutually exclusive. Why settle for a 60 mpg diesel when you can bump it up to 120 mpg with a hybrid? - Jed TO JED: You geuss a lot.. and quote a LOT.... but how much real world BBGB...HB BS E have you personally done??? HMMM??? AND: If you have NOT done this work..... Then who HAS??? --- Jed > On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid > arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid > improves diesel performance as much as any other > motor. Exactamundo - no contrario ! You must have misunderstood my intent (or more likely it was too hastily posted) if you thought that this was not my exact message (with the possible refinement of the 6-cycle steam diesel, in place of the normal diesel. WHA ... uh JUST uh...0JAT IS A STEAM diesel???? The hybrid setup actually improves the diesel ICE efficiency far BETTER than it does the gasoline alternative, since a diesel is very sensitive to single speed (RPM) optimization. The 6-cycle efficiency of >50% would only be possible at at single engine speed - ergo the hybrid is absolutely necessary to reach that efficiency goal. Jones BTW - for those who may want to look into this - the Crower patent is on shakey ground. 6-cycle engines have actually been used for over 100 years for locomotives and ship engines. There is even a separate patent sub-class for 6-cycle engines. NB: SUN........Rankine cycle H2 and O2 closed cycle [[[no carbon}}}!!!!!!!1 HM???? Comment? Knowledge? Kannot know how Howl ??? HMMMM??? Sound.... light.... energy.... who> NB: 2nd Law of Thermo: PRESUMES a CLOSED system.............. IS ARE the Earth a closed st up or system???? If so ...how so...??? NB: Remove the term "CARBON" from the ICE-DEISEL and JED caution..... What is-are then the result[s]??? NB: You can leave Helium from the sun..... HM???? ------=_Part_110705_22203996.1177351875393 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Vo.,
 
   Please read the portion of the text, below.....
 
THEN.... please read comment that follows.....
THEN.....PLEASE offer some contribution[s] as opposed to "rant", "guess"
Theory.....
 
       AND:  Please read embedded text[s] .....
 
 
 
----------------->>>>

>Therefore when evaluating the net carbon which must be
>burned to get a certain amount of torque at the
>wheels  . . .
 
(A)  What carbon is produced if the sun is the power source?

This brings up another important point. At start up speeds, up to 10 mph, the torque from an electric motor beats a steam engine, and really beats a diesel or standard ICE.

(B) ...............   According to WHAT-WHOM-OTHER ?????
 

>Cost may be another issue, since transportation fuel
>bears a high tax burden . . .
 
(C) ...please see (A)..or "SUN" ....


Oil is far more expensive than coal or nuclear power aside from any tax considerations. Plus, oil is subsidized by the cost of the Iraq war, $1 or $2 trillion and counting (taking into account the long term costs).


>"on a level
>playing field" there is NO valid comparison: the
>plug-in hybrid makes zero sense at all - if the
>efficiency of the small diesel is in the same range as
>the efficiency of the power plant - which is the
>claim.

On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid improves diesel performance as much as any other motor. There is no reason to make them mutually exclusive. Why settle for a 60 mpg diesel when you can bump it up to 120 mpg with a hybrid?

- Jed
 
         TO JED:    You geuss a lot.. and quote a LOT.... but how much real world
BBGB...HB BS E have you personally done??? 
       HMMM???
 
         AND:  If you have NOT done this work.....  Then who HAS???
 

--- Jed

> On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid
> arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid
> improves diesel performance as much as any other
> motor.

Exactamundo - no contrario ! You must have
misunderstood my intent (or more likely it was too
hastily posted) if you thought that this was not my
exact message (with the possible refinement of the
6-cycle steam diesel, in place of the normal diesel.
 
 WHA ... uh JUST uh...0JAT  IS A STEAM diesel????
 

The hybrid setup actually improves the diesel ICE
efficiency far BETTER than it does the gasoline
alternative, since a diesel is very sensitive to
single speed (RPM) optimization.

The 6-cycle efficiency of >50% would only be possible
at at single engine speed - ergo the hybrid is
absolutely necessary to reach that efficiency goal.

Jones

BTW - for those who may want to look into this - the
Crower patent is on shakey ground. 6-cycle engines
have actually been used for over 100 years for
locomotives and ship engines. There is even a separate
patent sub-class for 6-cycle engines.

  NB:     SUN........Rankine cycle

     H2  and O2
     closed cycle
          [[[no carbon}}}!!!!!!!1
                     HM????
         Comment?  Knowledge?  Kannot know how Howl   ???
                      HMMMM???           
            Sound.... light.... energy.... who>
           NB:
               2nd Law of Thermo:
         PRESUMES a CLOSED  system..............
      IS ARE the Earth a closed st up or system????
 If so ...how so...???
         NB:   Remove the term  "CARBON"  from the ICE-DEISEL and JED caution.....
             What is-are then the result[s]???
                    NB:  You can leave Helium from the sun.....
 
                HM????
 
------=_Part_110705_22203996.1177351875393-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 11:42:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NIg5pt013428; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:42:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NIg3gh013404; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:42:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:42:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:41:42 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74482 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Balls. > The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't > based on science, it's just a philosophy if Did you watch the video John? Volcanoes pump out 10 times as much CO2 as all human activity. The big volcano you mentioned blocked out the sunlight which cooled the climate, which resulted in a famine. There is a 1600 year cycle of warming and cooling. Greenland was once ice free, hence the name. > > Truth isn't our friend, nor is light. What nonsense >In the end I have heard of lots of theories, and the thing that >convinces me that it is right to follow the mainstream >(something i seldom do) is this: War caused by oil. Nonsense, war is caused by human evil >Pollution caused by oil. Nonsense, pollution is caused by human activity >Assholes supported by oil, and I don't just mean Arab ones. That's all of us. >Quite frankly George Bush is enough reason for me. >You're ignoring the civilizational war in which we find >ourselves And then there is the fact that I do research in the >field of alternative energy, shouldn't the question be why you >on a FE based list support oil? This is a scientific anomalies list John > > Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies. More Nonsense, people with lots of money support the Democrats. The middle income people, who want to be left alone by the government vote Republican. > > It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing. > You're spouting more idiotic liberal nonsense John. We are in a civilizational war. The Radical Islamists have announced their intention to either convert us to Islam and impose Sharia Law, or kill us. Given the economic track record of Sharia Law, if they got their way, you'll get your wish of seeing human economic activity suppressed. Ok, sorry for the harsh words which are a result of frustration but can you please explain your pro pollution fuck with nature stance because I don't even slightly get it. >>If you want to offer people more hope then find a better way >to solve the problem, don't deny that any problem exists. We have all sorts of problems, but, IMHO. if human caused G W is one of them, there's nothing that we can do about it. You've accepted the liberal's world view, which is insane and consequently the world makes no sense to you. I'd like to recommend Dennis Prager's show, which can be heard on radio in many markets, and on the Internet. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 11:58:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NIwjOj001410; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:58:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NIwfQ9001377; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:58:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:58:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: Subject: RE: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:58:21 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c785d9$5d22d5f0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C785B7.D61135F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AceFsjTOvTEHm6MxQuKUpeNd2EuorgAHZPUg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74483 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C785B7.D61135F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 _____ =20 From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:12 AM To: vortex-l Subject: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming =20 The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack = pragmatism. There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the = other is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types, helping nature = with a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good = side of pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely = fuck with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age.=20 Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I = find it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And = better ways exist) But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW = may be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing CO2.=20 The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming = such as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to = the ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us. So, on the one hand, there is less solar energy getting to the ground, = but on the other hand, Mars is heating up. Mars has little atmosphere, no clouds, and no discernable recent = volcanic activity. Its reflectivity is constant. That means that the Martian temperature rise is a good indicator of increased solar output. The = Earth=92s reflectivity is changeable based on the extent of cloud cover. If the amount of sunlight reaching the ground has decreased, as you say, = despite increased solar infusion, then we can conclude that it is caused by significantly increased cloud cover. That makes sense since higher = surface temperatures will cause higher evaporation rates, and thus a more = expansive cloud cover. What we have demonstrated then is that the Earth has a = very effective self regulating mechanism to control temperature. The = operation fits standard control system theory. It=92s the same for everything = from fly ball governors to op amps. The control system must first detect an = error before it can implement a correction. The zone in which the correction = is made is called the control band. There is a high control band and a low control band. Between them is the dead band where no control is = required or generated. Control systems that are modestly damped will have = overshoot, which is to say that operation will rarely stay within the ideal = confines of the dead band. In Earth=92s case it will alternate between cold and = hot. There is a specific oscillation period for a control system which does = not become apparent if the system is critically damped. The Earth is not critically damped in its thermal control system, and it exhibits a = period of approximately 500 years. If, indeed, human activity has nudged the average temperature higher, = the control system will generate all the more force =93clouds=94 to bring it = back down. You and others may be willing to argue that our activity has broken the control system. But, so far, there is no indication of that other than = the speculation that pent up methanes and hydrides could over tax the = control system. But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else.=20 But that doesn't invalidate it at all. The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that = there couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a pretty irresponsible argument.=20 Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove = beyond a doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened = in the past either. There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree.=20 But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore = it by throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate Gore and side with Bush, are you high?=20 Bush is not making my day in several areas. Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me = to believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid? I thought you finally read my first post. I said I want us off oil dependency. I have a lot of time and money invested in that goal, but unfortunately with poor results. What experiments have you done? You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and = against alternative energy, are you a moron?=20 Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, = you like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even = if they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also = use it as a way to avoid guilt)=20 I want truth, honesty, and facts on this subject. Instead, I see way too much hype, deception, and scare tactics. =20 Jeff =20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C785B7.D61135F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

From: John = Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, = 2007 10:12 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: [Vo]:The Fallacy = of arguments against Global Warming

 

The problem = with augments against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism.

There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either = it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the other = is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,  helping nature with = a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side = of pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely = fuck with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age. =

Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I = find it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better = ways exist)

But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW = may be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows = temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing CO2.
The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming = such as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to the = ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.

So, on the one hand, there is less solar energy getting to the ground, but on = the other hand, Mars is heating up.

Mars has little atmosphere, no clouds, and no discernable recent volcanic = activity.  Its reflectivity is constant.  That means that the Martian = temperature rise is a good indicator of increased solar output.  The = Earth’s reflectivity is changeable based on the extent of cloud cover.  If the amount of sunlight reaching the ground has decreased, as you say, despite = increased solar infusion, then we can conclude that it is caused by significantly = increased cloud cover.  That makes sense since higher surface temperatures = will cause higher evaporation rates, and thus a more expansive cloud = cover.  What we have demonstrated then is that the Earth has a very effective = self regulating mechanism to control temperature.  The operation fits = standard control system theory.  It’s the same for everything from fly = ball governors to op amps.  The control system must first detect an = error before it can implement a correction.  The zone in which the = correction is made is called the control band.  There is a high control band and = a low control band.  Between them is the dead band where no control is = required or generated.  Control systems that are modestly damped will have overshoot, which is to say that operation will rarely stay within the = ideal confines of the dead band.  In Earth’s case it will alternate between cold and hot.  There is a specific oscillation period for a control system which does not become apparent if the system is = critically damped.  The Earth is not critically damped in its thermal control = system, and it exhibits a period of approximately 500 = years.

If, indeed, human activity has nudged the average temperature higher, the = control system will generate all the more force “clouds” to bring it = back down.

You and others may be willing to argue that our activity has broken the control = system.  But, so far, there is no indication of that other than the speculation = that pent up methanes and hydrides could over tax the control = system.


But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to = think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else.
But that doesn't invalidate it at all.

The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that = there couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a pretty irresponsible argument.

Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove = beyond a doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened = in the past either.
There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree.
But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore = it by throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political = currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate Gore and = side with Bush, are you high?

Bush is not making my day in several areas.



Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over = Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me to = believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?

I thought you finally read my first post.  I said I want us off oil = dependency.  I have a lot of time and money invested in that goal, but unfortunately = with poor results.  What experiments have you = done?



You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and = against alternative energy, are you a moron?

Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, = you like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even = if they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it = as a way to avoid guilt)

I want truth, honesty, and facts on this subject.

Instead, I see way too much hype, deception, and scare = tactics.

 =

Jeff

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 = 8:18 PM

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C785B7.D61135F0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 12:04:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NJ4MUB023587; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:04:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NJ4KGT023562; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:04:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:04:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eBD9YM5GosfEEhEYIheRm92ytO5P41xOGcLNsJNLDdBKZNsRx8/RIcE2B8lWwAn0eLioFXyqylTC1MrlJtvAQ3QXRnpesFr68NEXwQogfOZkU9o4hMPkvmcFyqWdZlhsgrJxNHU2M72EP886TpYNYWP9lYnlv5CY2Bj4pLyG70I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UiS+NtBOClXe/wl2pH0nXtXCHNR4nRtGYWI1Zixie4J/e8KjffPfm15MI/jcC+Mbitv7qtBCUlQgf5VV1GsH6IUV1b9X5NW+AhuAZ+SKhRK35zBItpm5uCUUdiktRWPn0MjfaqvpWrJRtemmwLBxhTcsn73RpJ4h3m97ktG+d3M= Message-ID: <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:03:59 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74484 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > John Berry wrote: > >> Balls. >> The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't >> based on science, it's just a philosophy if > > Did you watch the video John? Volcanoes pump out 10 times as much CO2 as > all human activity. The big volcano you mentioned blocked out the > sunlight which cooled the climate, which resulted in a famine. There is > a 1600 year cycle of warming and cooling. Greenland was once ice free, > hence the name. Climate scientists know about volcanoes, which ones have erupted and when. Volcanoes and asteroids can and have caused such climate changes. Fact still remains the largest climate simulation program utilizing supercomputers factoring in every know related effect predicts the amount of CO2 caused by humanity is the main cause of Global Warming. I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 12:27:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NJR7XA013399; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:27:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NJR4O1013351; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:27:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:27:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <462CC44E.4010906@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:26:45 -0400 Message-ID: <001d01c785dd$547922c0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <462CC44E.4010906@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AceFtNsbnijGxCE0SLGxm2zE43dW/AAJleIg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74485 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Paul Lowrance [mailto:energymover@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:36 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW No offense intended, but this topic is one of few that I take ***extremely***=20 seriously. I will be out right blunt and tell you that nearly all your=20 statements are out right fuzzy logic --> Listen, neither you or I are climate scientists. Therefore it's only = logical to=20 listen to the mass majority of PhD climate scientists. It is the liberal way to silence dissenting voices. The size of the mass majority is skewed because the esteemed potential dissenters are keeping quiet to preserve their careers. I'm not part of the = scientific community. I don't have that kind of threat hanging over me. > Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with = in the > late 70=92s. =20 Please show your references of leading climate scientists make such = claims. You don't remember it? It was all over the news and in magazines during the late 70's. If I hadn't just thrown out my Popular Science collection last year I could have found a sample for you. Jeff No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM =20 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 12:46:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NJkgrM022871; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:46:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NJkdl7022844; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:46:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:46:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=euMnjgdBNPOp8Ha/by36AL6rxXtK5c0SAFADYVkQbluEmm0r9/5LyNkIUOFcUnczPeSkFiITVzS6c+O5OUbVzI86BRw9THxAEQFu2yMq0+K3q5wcKgqJyD38fV0bxVg/Yl1FxeOh065O6CMUPckffR3kBE1p03gReK2Ct+nqCjQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=V0o9knf88wir+ynuTGA4txShRRAMjTfw8o4OOG26QiloSyKDJBZNyvMq0rbWAQ9J1qNT0Qw5vhmOBOV1+RH4lUwgSH1Ur1UK49NJR6bXehMMkfUHGD8p9ugfny4CMBEjCA/7FiPbAPgjxz1BfOJmo0J+By77IlAJH+ofyzovE4o= Message-ID: <462D0D13.6050700@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:46:27 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal' References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> <462C55D3.7080907@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <462C55D3.7080907@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74486 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: After writing computer simulations for several decades now I have a good understanding of such simulations. The computer will dominate science. :-) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070111184302.htm What's fascinating is recent simulations show the known amount of human caused CO2 should increase the planets temperature in accordance to present global warming. There seems to be a lot of fuzzy logic roaming around, point to Mars. We simply don't know how much inner activity is occurring on Mars, but that's moot because all the moons and planets in our solar system would have to increase in temperature by the same percentage if such warming is caused by an increase in Sun radiation. Is our Moon heating up, LOL. Regardless, NASA supercomputer simulations are showing CO2 caused by humanity alone is enough to cause global warming. Are the simulations in error? Perhaps, but not likely given the size of the project. This and a lot more is discussed in "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with Tom Brokaw" Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 13:00:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NK0c9V029193; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:00:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NK0aNA029178; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:00:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:00:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Qz5+Ge0GW5FH37gg5F1+SCtQmTaaIbIfjSQj9WVcREwz14SLYSgYz4MdScq9Xrz/CI6Du+M1tSN8MiiPj04d5QpuX1PmYTy9vOTDRZn3sNUksNb95UQURGFnNbWogsh1TgvMh4I5VDYY/TEUnaDPAE/1QweSZfSNyfPNGSYG/xA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pqrEeaLTT6jkgybWFjZ7U2SjBswPZkuonSpzFoSZum80x+d9Q8CKdJZc0GXL1PJr898CjIPf3oXiYooz9KL4pOOkrtCL+XTQwtBrwdIrJkGPM0JdA0CI25ObtOGWKDJ3ZfrqMuhDnhJS7Y6UJBqX2i0qCvTFAdfDS9Uu5Y8B01I= Message-ID: <462D1059.3090109@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:00:25 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <462CC44E.4010906@gmail.com> <001d01c785dd$547922c0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> In-Reply-To: <001d01c785dd$547922c0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74487 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Fink wrote: >> Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in > the >> late 70’s. > > > Please show your references of leading climate scientists make such claims. > > You don't remember it? It was all over the news and in magazines > during the late 70's. If I hadn't just thrown out my Popular Science > collection last year I could have found a sample for you. I don't think so. Popular science has published articles on just about everything. Sorry, I just don't see any logic in your statements. What if someone said, "Hey, popular science printed an article on Free Energy. Therefore the science community *MUST* believe such machines are real." Also you said "I recall a news caster six weeks before saying that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years." You recall a news caster making a statement?????? Maybe some other effect is adding to global warming, but it's illogical to deny recent computer simulations. Climate scientists know there are cycles-- 60 year cycles, 500,000 year cycles, etc. etc. Indeed climate scientists are trying to verify if part of global warming is caused by another effect, but for the moment present data is very convincing that humanity is a major cause. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 13:10:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NKA2i9001319; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:10:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NK6xhs032019; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:06:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:06:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> <462C55D3.7080907@usfamily.net> <462D0D13.6050700@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal' Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:06:40 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c785e2$e8522870$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <462D0D13.6050700@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AceF4Ef4rSoUqBOQRvaXyzVU1snESgAAeHkg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74488 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The moon is just about the only other thing we can look at. Mercury is too close to the sun, the other planets are cloud shrouded, and everything else is likely too small to get a good reading. But, you are right. We should see the same effect of elevated temps on the moon if solar activity is increasing. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Paul Lowrance [mailto:energymover@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:46 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal' After writing computer simulations for several decades now I have a good understanding of such simulations. The computer will dominate science. :-) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070111184302.htm What's fascinating is recent simulations show the known amount of human caused CO2 should increase the planets temperature in accordance to present global warming. There seems to be a lot of fuzzy logic roaming around, point to Mars. We simply don't know how much inner activity is occurring on Mars, but that's moot because all the moons and planets in our solar system would have to increase in temperature by the same percentage if such warming is caused by an increase in Sun radiation. Is our Moon heating up, LOL. Regardless, NASA supercomputer simulations are showing CO2 caused by humanity alone is enough to cause global warming. Are the simulations in error? Perhaps, but not likely given the size of the project. This and a lot more is discussed in "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with Tom Brokaw" Regards, Paul Lowrance No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 13:13:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NKA2Dl020809; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:12:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NK807M019546; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:08:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:08:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070423154142.037bfd00@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:07:50 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW In-Reply-To: <001d01c785dd$547922c0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> References: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <462CC44E.4010906@gmail.com> <001d01c785dd$547922c0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74489 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Fink wrote: >Listen, neither you or I are climate scientists. Therefore it's only logical >to >listen to the mass majority of PhD climate scientists. > > It is the liberal way to silence dissenting voices. The size of the >mass majority is skewed because the esteemed potential dissenters are >keeping quiet to preserve their careers. No, it is not liberal. It is the conventional approach. It is apolitical, or perhaps slightly conservative, I suppose. Generally speaking, conservatives believe that you should pay heed to established experts and textbook science. (And I fully agree with them about that.) Conservatism means you honor and give special weight to established, mainstream standards. There is no question that the mainstream in climate science now supports the global warming hypothesis. Everyone involved in cold fusion knows that dissenters sometimes keep quiet, and that science, like all other human institutions, is sometimes political. That's human nature. (Primate nature, actually.) However, just because sometimes, in some cases, the majority lords over the minority, that does mean it always happens, or that the minority view is automatically correct. If that were true, all of science and technology would be dysfunctional, all textbooks would be wrong, and we would still be living in trees. The fact is, most of the time the majority of experts are right, and it is a good bet they are in this case. The majority does not go about squelching minority views unless it is motivated to do so, and unless the minority is powerless and despised. For example, plasma fusion researchers attack cold fusion because they fear they will lose their funding. In the case of global warming, the minority of experts who say it is not occurring is anything but powerless! On the contrary, this group has the full support of the U.S. President and both political parties, plus any amount of funding from industry. Influential columnists and other opinion makers often repeat claims made by the anti-global warming researchers, and others in the anti-global warming camp such as economists who claim it would cost too much to fix the problem, or the extreme nut-cakes who claim that global warming would actually be beneficial. Despite the fact that this minority is influential beyond its numbers, the majority of climate researchers are in no danger of losing their funding, so they are not motivated to attack the minority the way plasma fusion scientists are. I have never read one of them claim that the minority is doing "schlock science" or "fraud" but only that they are wrong. I have deliberately framed this discussion purely in terms of whether as a rule you can believe experts or not, without regard to the actual content of the claim. Along the same lines, in the previous message I wrote: "I do not know enough about the technical issues surrounding global warming to judge whether the effect is real or not . . ." That is an overstatement. I do know something, and I think the data is increasingly compelling. It will not be as compelling as a cold fusion experiment until we fry the planet and the damage is done. The statements circulated by anti-global warming researchers and by columnists such as George Will strike as being increasingly unsupportable. Furthermore, the steps required to reduce global warming would almost all be beneficial in other ways. For example, they would reduce U.S. dependency on foreign oil and the terrorism sponsored by some OPEC members. So even if global warming is not happening, we should take vigorous steps to reduce CO2 emissions anyway. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 13:14:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NKEG9o003309; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:14:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NKEDle003280; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:14:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:14:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <462CC44E.4010906@gmail.com> <001d01c785dd$547922c0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <462D1059.3090109@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:13:54 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c785e3$eaadd640$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <462D1059.3090109@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AceF4imT5mA5P9z+RnK4Iltsh+oukgAAQA8g Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74490 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Also you said "I recall a news caster six weeks before saying that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years." You recall a news caster making a statement?????? The newscaster reported a statement. I don't know if he named a source. The item was obviously intended to hype GW to the public, but it had the opposite affect on me. Jeff No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 13:15:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NKFJ2Z003945; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:15:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NKFHQ0003920; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:15:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:15:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070423160824.0366cac0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:14:53 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Real world Flop ear mule In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74491 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: john herman wrote: >This brings up another important point. At start up speeds, up to 10 >mph, the torque from an electric motor beats a steam engine, and >really beats a diesel or standard ICE. > >(B) ............... According to WHAT-WHOM-OTHER ????? This is common knowledge. Furthermore, it is readily apparent when you drive a Prius. When you floor it on a highway on-ramp, it takes off like no car I have ever driven, and I have driven some powerful cars. Also, there is no gear shifting, which makes for smooth acceleration. > TO JED: You geuss a lot.. and quote a LOT.... but how > much real world >BBGB...HB BS E have you personally done??? > HMMM??? No, I never guess. I am detail-oriented, fact-based guy. That doesn't mean I am right, but it does mean that every assertion I make is fact-checked six ways from seven. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 13:35:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NKYuGn013753; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:34:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NKYrAu013722; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:34:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:34:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070423162856.03694b68@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:34:46 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74492 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Wikipedia article on the 2004 DoE panel on cold fusion Status: O X-Status: See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_DoE_panel_on_cold_fusion This is surprisingly comprehensive. I have to admit, the Wikipedia main article on cold fusion is holding up remarkably well against skeptical attacks. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion People such as Pierre Carbonnelle (Pcarbonn) must spend a lot of time battling with skeptics there. On one hand I hate to see them waste their time, but on the other hand Wikipedia is increasingly influential. I read in the newspaper that some rival encyclopedias are being formed, including one that requires contributors to file their real names and addresses. I approve of that idea. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 04:24:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NBNxwc020169; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:24:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NBNwtd020146; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:23:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:23:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=LEzajZKNzXsZ3SELHEZT57qYENvQuduoOknb0v0FAc3od5Nt1ATlBhE4USfhKJZZP/GoFrxU57DWfKAWRQd7/9Z6icfpqp19XvMCj12a8YRO6Xs0uzgyR0L5XcW18/X1NyWrx2RXW0QCsAMgd/glK47Hut7BHzBxTUsecqhmcss=; X-YMail-OSG: 0KmYJhIVM1mbcTSKtl86muKTmCQ4xWGdyR95YVg1Nkm9951tH5wZ.S7QW.Vfk_YYv1U1ZSgYAZ.BbLt1xo3X8WeP1EmlzQmRElndnlgkf923mGMkNK9Hwcn6bI0ht4kNx_c5D1rlN6nKGIw- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.10 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:23:55 -0700 (PDT) From: PHILIP WINESTONE Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-341062486-1177327435=:95124" Message-ID: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74472 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: --0-341062486-1177327435=:95124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refute= d the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that s= howed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial = Revolution. These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's diffic= ult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense = is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make= a killing.=0A=0AThe "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is = that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the abov= e scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warmi= ng. Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun danc= e. Perhaps even try some solid science.=0A=0AP.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Mes= sage ----=0AFrom: Jeff Fink =0ATo: vortex-l@eskimo.com=0ASe= nt: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM=0ASubject: [Vo]:to John Berry regardi= ng GW=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAl Gore is poised to make millions if = not billions off of =93global=0Awarming=94. He puts some chart in his movi= e saying it is now the=0Awarmest ever and you buy it as gospel.=0A =0A=0A = =0A =0A=0AThere are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gulli= bility=0Aof some on this forum scares me.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AIt has been = much warmer not so long ago.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AHere is another example i= f your attention span will allow:=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AWe have huge sequoia= trees growing in central CA at=0Aelevations of 3000 to 5000 feet. They li= ke it cool and moist, but don=92t=0Alike extreme sub freezing temps or stro= ng winds.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AThere are fossilized stumps of sequoias in t= he=0A Colorado rockies at Florissant =0Aat an elevation over 8000 feet. Th= ey are exhibited in place in excavated=0Apits. I saw them. But, they looke= d a little strange. They did not=0Alook entirely like rock. I asked about= it at the visitor=92s center,=0Aand was told that they are only 50% fossil= ized. =0A =0A=0AJohn. The rest is WOOD! =0A =0A=0AJohn. How old aren=92t t= hey?=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0ABack in the 50=92s, before this site was protecte= d, Mrs.=0ADisney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her = husband. =0AI saw it on display outside at Disneyland =0Aaround 1995. It w= as located right next to the lake near=0A Adventure Land . =0AThose of you = who get to Disneyland may still=0Abe able to see it if it hasn=92t rotted a= way by now.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AThere are many things about this planet=92= s history that=0Adon=92t line up with present day thinking. Let us not be d= uped into making=0Abig expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain h= istorical data.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AAgain I wonder. What happened to the = ice age we were=0Athreatened with in the late 70=92s. =0A =0A=0A =0A =0A= =0AIt=92s ironic that many global warming events this past=0Aseason were ca= ncelled due to extreme winter conditions.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AJeff=0A =0A= =0A =0A =0A=0AP.S.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0AJohn. This is only my third post i= n over a year. I=0Aread your stuff, and you post almost everyday. You cou= ld give me the=0Acourtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly= call me an idiot,=0Aand perhaps point out specific errors in my writings s= o that I may be enlightened.=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ANo viru= s found in this outgoing message.=0A=0AChecked by AVG Free Edition.=0A=0AVe= rsion: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18= PM=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-341062486-1177327435=:95124 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refut= ed the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that = showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial= Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's = difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional non= sense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) ca= n make a killing.

The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others h= ere, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like = the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on glob= al warming.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps = do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net><= br>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
Su= bject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A = =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A

Al = Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of =93global=0Awarming= =94.  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the=0Awarmest e= ver and you buy it as gospel.

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

It has been much warmer not so long ago.

=0A=0A  

=0A=0A

Here is another example if your attention span will al= low:

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We have huge sequoia tr= ees growing in central CA at=0Aelevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They = like it cool and moist, but don=92t=0Alike extreme sub freezing temps or st= rong winds.

=0A=0A

 = ;

=0A=0A

There are fossi= lized stumps of sequoias in the=0A Colorado rockies at Florissant =0Aat an = elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated=0A= pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did n= ot=0Alook entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor=92s cen= ter,=0Aand was told that they are only 50% fossilized.

= =0A=0A

John. The rest is WOOD! 

=0A=0A

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. How old aren=92t = they?

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

= Back in the 50=92s, be= fore this site was protected, Mrs.=0ADisney bought one of these stumps for = a birthday present for her husband. =0AI saw it on display outside at = Disneyland =0Aaround 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near= =0A Adventure Land . =0AThose of you who get to Disneyland may still= =0Abe able to see it if it hasn=92t rotted away by now.

= =0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

There are many things about this planet=92s hi= story that=0Adon=92t line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped= into making=0Abig expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain histo= rical data.

=0A=0A

 = ;

=0A=0A

Again I wonder.=   What happened to the ice age we were=0Athreatened with in the late 7= 0=92s. 

=0A=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A=0A

It=92s ironic = that many global warming events this past=0Aseason were cancelled due to ex= treme winter conditions.

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

Jef= f

=0A=0A

 <= /font>

=0A=0A

P.S.

= =0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

John. This is only my third post in over a yea= r.  I=0Aread your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could= give me the=0Acourtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly c= all me an idiot,=0Aand perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so = that I may be enlightened.

=0A=0A

<= font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">  

=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A

No virus found in this outgoing message.
=0AChecked by AVG Free = Edition.
=0AVersion: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Dat= e: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM
=0A

=0A

--0-341062486-1177327435=:95124-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 14:51:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NLpihC016386; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:51:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NLpfQM016362; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:51:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:51:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JOup0BkU/K8QdwcmlkIw5FKksIwepJf8bmPynQKDCqFTeP93axPV0uhVGdZqiCVX4+NwyqLTRTn4PfnneSF8zVz9tCMUwHkQJfMngT6NdaMNuKNZVSvNzpVfCg/VA48D+CkSJuSnBnQ6jVGA8fMz8TdIsmdRsoAVt4ahRa103oE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AZEQrp3o4jbcRh4ELDlHhYNqr0jPAG3yP61i2wczZPNexBj4XYpK0heJvBZoGVdFkEpBzlZKuvCvvhwEQo4BIp+aYBKkufK0RPxRISP4Qa2KQOpLdq80+Mxe3elQmJz80F3Z4wuRfDgE+r6qRPfoA1KXkyTkL+h18uJFvXY7h08= Message-ID: <462D2A64.8070107@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:51:32 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal' References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> <462C55D3.7080907@usfamily.net> <462D0D13.6050700@gmail.com> <000901c785e2$e8522870$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> In-Reply-To: <000901c785e2$e8522870$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74493 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Fink wrote: > Mercury is too close to the sun Indeed, and if the sun is radiating X% more radiation then Mercury should be hotter. Are you suggesting Mercury is always in front or behind the Sun so we can't measuring it's blackbody radiation??? I'm curious where you get such information, or are you just thinking out loud? > the other planets are cloud shrouded, That doesn't matter. Planets are not transparent to blackbody radiation. If the planet receives more radiation from the Sun then they'll heat up and radiate that much more. > and everything else is likely too small to get a good reading. I doubt that given such blackbody radiation is easily focused and measurable. > But, you are right. We should see the same effect of elevated > temps on the moon if solar activity is increasing. Indeed, and it seems likely given the significance and attention global warming is drawing that the few global warming skeptic climate scientists would use such Moon temperature data as further evidence, but I don't see mention of any such data in articles. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 16:47:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3NNlj69002328; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:47:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3NNlgq4002300; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:47:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:47:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=q+hvMtzapaC8/JnBuDIgiXv2f0w2MrXMW0Mq7etOrF9uqBeUcOXLn4shzTSlhKoe8V0X+W2e/jHwmBDK2uOD1vOb6MToS8XIZFg4uiLmnI3YdlpHaSdNCFAAp0vTO1pWAZkid2mDHXwJ194REBo/dH6WMxXvpZXIEVn8YvaDeaI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WoTsVBy/oUWVkOb9cx6lcqz7UOYvIsbs85Luso5hyusgoxeCD4SiIo+TkrnDE+n61JiPlaz0R8K00kqWxNYiUPViKSQ/Se+ncdE3ZrkexGXUsqzMOBaL9ZkTMskR+n1Klsjc8vdZAFJyq5MJfkHf+zKyTqOxqgXHxvC+lWdFqbQ= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:47:39 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal' In-Reply-To: <462D2A64.8070107@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3618_5093678.1177372059351" References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> <462C55D3.7080907@usfamily.net> <462D0D13.6050700@gmail.com> <000901c785e2$e8522870$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <462D2A64.8070107@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: <1vrwkB.A.sj.dWULGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74494 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_3618_5093678.1177372059351 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jeff, how sure are you that GW is nonsense? Are you pretty sure? Is there a 10% chance it's real? 5%? 1%? one in a million?? At what point do the odds become justification for polluting out planet more? On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance wrote: > > Jeff Fink wrote: > > Mercury is too close to the sun > > > Indeed, and if the sun is radiating X% more radiation then Mercury should > be > hotter. Are you suggesting Mercury is always in front or behind the Sun so > we > can't measuring it's blackbody radiation??? I'm curious where you get > such > information, or are you just thinking out loud? > > > > > > the other planets are cloud shrouded, > > > That doesn't matter. Planets are not transparent to blackbody radiation. > If the > planet receives more radiation from the Sun then they'll heat up and > radiate > that much more. > > > > > > and everything else is likely too small to get a good reading. > > > I doubt that given such blackbody radiation is easily focused and > measurable. > > > > > > But, you are right. We should see the same effect of elevated > > temps on the moon if solar activity is increasing. > > > Indeed, and it seems likely given the significance and attention global > warming > is drawing that the few global warming skeptic climate scientists would > use such > Moon temperature data as further evidence, but I don't see mention of any > such > data in articles. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > ------=_Part_3618_5093678.1177372059351 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jeff, how sure are you that GW is nonsense?
Are you pretty sure?

Is there a 10% chance it's real? 5%? 1%? one in a million??

At what point do the odds become justification for polluting out planet more?

On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com> wrote:
Jeff Fink wrote:
> Mercury is too close to the sun


Indeed, and if the sun is radiating X% more radiation then Mercury should be
hotter. Are you suggesting Mercury is always in front or behind the Sun so we
can't measuring it's blackbody radiation???  I'm curious where you get such
information, or are you just thinking out loud?




> the other planets are cloud shrouded,


That doesn't matter. Planets are not transparent to blackbody radiation. If the
planet receives more radiation from the Sun then they'll heat up and radiate
that much more.




> and everything else is likely too small to get a good reading.


I doubt that given such blackbody radiation is easily focused and measurable.




> But, you are right.  We should see the same effect of elevated
> temps on the moon if solar activity is increasing.


Indeed, and it seems likely given the significance and attention global warming
is drawing that the few global warming skeptic climate scientists would use such
Moon temperature data as further evidence, but I don't see mention of any such
data in articles.



Regards,
Paul Lowrance


------=_Part_3618_5093678.1177372059351-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 17:08:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O08EaV004196; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:08:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O08Cwa004172; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:08:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:08:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <2543E85BDFD348628C79F35EC72FC6DB@LeChoisis> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <001f01c7858c$0eb55930$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <462CC44E.4010906@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <462CC44E.4010906@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 01:07:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16386 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16386 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74495 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This Mars "warming up" is a red herring. The source of that idea is one man but it has been seized upon by the GW deniers as the basis of the latest in a series of last minute revelations that they have trotted out - designed to protect the status quo and muddy the waters. Most planetary climate scientists say the idea that Mars is warming because of increased solar output is rubbish - they lay the real blame at the door of Martian orbital variations (wobbles). Try this excellent website for a bit of realism to counter the (possibly deliberate) misinformation that is fooling the wishfully thinking. http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=192 Yes, there really were warnings about precipitating an ice age from legit climate scientists (and environmentalists) in the 70's. This is often dragged out as some sort of proof that climate scientists and environmentalists got it wrong then and are now saying something completely opposite. Nothing could be further from the truth. Before I make my point I have to say that S.Fred Singer, one of the loudest and most "eminent" of the GW deniers, originally denied that global warming was happening because he claimed that measurements of temperature taken by other scientists were in error because of the "urban heat island" effect (measurements were elevated because of city development). Now that the evidence that GW is really happening is virtually unassailable, he has published a book claiming that OK, it is happening, but it's all down to natural causes and that it will be good for us anyway. Remember what happened to the punk who felt lucky in Dirty Harry? Back to the ice age theory. This was that as the long term cycles suggest that we are heading towards another natural ice age, the emission of acid gases (which form nuclei that generate increased cloud cover) and particulate matter (soot) in vehicle exhaust and smoke stack emissions would cause a global cooling effect because of the reflection of solar radiation before it got to Earth thus creating a runaway feedback effect of increased albedo leading to more ice and snow etc. As far as I recall there was very little consideration given to greenhouse gases at the time. One of the ironies of all this is that the cooling effect of the acid gases and particulates probably helped to mask the effect of global warming from the same fossil fuels (particularly coal) that were contributing to the increase in CO2 - potentially explaining why initial predictions of rising temperature were somewhat out. The "hockey stick" graph was mentioned as having been refuted - it's not as simple as that. Current thinking is that the original graph had problems with the methodolgy chosen and the error estimations but still the overall graph shape remains the same. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 17:10:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O0Adct005761; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:10:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O0AaiG005717; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:10:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:10:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=n1vtiZJZOcI9mcYMV1yYOIB14ifoniXeAeWP2+nVOgS7ZOex55d4wcmgy74ZL9HYJWwZCFjEV7xxeNRiuwEtxS3WpzYpYllOppQvPU6+7bPRVwa/rujP4G5VxJ3eHerojT1VzfEBrmO9wKDbTCVExvG68msGl79wr9G6CHxQncY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=tiYeianW4L1RUVoMsSas6/K1vUAinFn6/eDICx/GvF0vW2cXDKsm5Jvl1CRLZqJTFozkN3tlYeyyW4nT6YzOd3xAxeTWLckNWRJHnnqyKefnTSFL0wC5vTg8X1rVvMgkGkn3oImqVIzvLye8R/gFCuaV1Eo+2aIcYR7LtIkp1So= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:10:29 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming In-Reply-To: <000c01c785d9$5d22d5f0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3944_22802207.1177373429201" References: <000c01c785d9$5d22d5f0$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74496 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_3944_22802207.1177373429201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/24/07, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, April 23, 2007 10:12 AM > *To:* vortex-l > *Subject:* [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming > > > > The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism. > > There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either > it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the other > is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types, helping nature with > a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side of > pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely fuck > with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age. > > Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I find > it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better > ways exist) > > But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW > may be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows > temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing > CO2. > The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming > such as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to > the ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us. > > So, on the one hand, there is less solar energy getting to the ground, but > on the other hand, Mars is heating up. > > Mars has little atmosphere, no clouds, and no discernable recent volcanic > activity. Its reflectivity is constant. That means that the Martian > temperature rise is a good indicator of increased solar output. The Earth's > reflectivity is changeable based on the extent of cloud cover. If the > amount of sunlight reaching the ground has decreased, as you say, despite > increased solar infusion, then we can conclude that it is caused by > significantly increased cloud cover. That makes sense since higher surface > temperatures will cause higher evaporation rates, and thus a more expansive > cloud cover. What we have demonstrated then is that the Earth has a very > effective self regulating mechanism to control temperature. The operation > fits standard control system theory. It's the same for everything from fly > ball governors to op amps. The control system must first detect an error > before it can implement a correction. The zone in which the correction is > made is called the control band. There is a high control band and a low > control band. Between them is the dead band where no control is required or > generated. Control systems that are modestly damped will have overshoot, > which is to say that operation will rarely stay within the ideal confines of > the dead band. In Earth's case it will alternate between cold and hot. > There is a specific oscillation period for a control system which does not > become apparent if the system is critically damped. The Earth is not > critically damped in its thermal control system, and it exhibits a period of > approximately 500 years. > > If, indeed, human activity has nudged the average temperature higher, the > control system will generate all the more force "clouds" to bring it back > down. > > You and others may be willing to argue that our activity has broken the > control system. But, so far, there is no indication of that other than the > speculation that pent up methanes and hydrides could over tax the control > system. > So we should pollute until we get a signal which is totally undeniable? The scare tactics (which you mention later) aren't from those concerned with Global Warming, they say that it is fixable. There are scare tactics about but it's phony Terrorism not GW. But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the > atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to > think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else. > But that doesn't invalidate it at all. > > The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that > there couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a > pretty irresponsible argument. > > Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove beyond > a doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened in > the past either. > There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree. > But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore it > by throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political > currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate > Gore and side with Bush, are you high? > > Bush is not making my day in several areas. > Several areas? Ok so you are a Republican. Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over > Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me to > believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid? > > I thought you finally read my first post. I said I want us off oil > dependency. I have a lot of time and money invested in that goal, but > unfortunately with poor results. What experiments have you done? > Plenty but this isn't the time... You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and against > alternative energy, are you a moron? > > Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming > uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, you > like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even if > they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it > as a way to avoid guilt) > > I want truth, honesty, and facts on this subject. > Yeah, Right. (funnier in New Zealand, trust me) Why is it that those against GW have different conflicting arguments, the only thing which unites them is they are anti (or an alternative or a different spin on) GW. You don't argue that CO2 isn't effecting temperatures you argue that high CO2 we are experiencing is from Volcanoes. (I haven't noticed you argue that our CO2 isn;'t high) You Argue that the sun is heating things up. And yet you argue that GW meetings are being canceled due to the cold. You throw up OOPART's hoping to distract us. > Instead, I see way too much hype, deception, and scare tactics. > Cause Bush isn't using deceptive scare tactics huh? Again with all that's going on and you bash some Greens? Al Gore is the only politician to address the issue, this is opposed in the mainstream media, the white house and both political parties. No question which is the underdog. ------=_Part_3944_22802207.1177373429201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 4/24/07, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:

 

 

From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:12 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming

 

The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism.

There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the other is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,  helping nature with a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side of pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely fuck with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age.

Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I find it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better ways exist)

But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW may be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing CO2.
The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming such as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to the ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.

So, on the one hand, there is less solar energy getting to the ground, but on the other hand, Mars is heating up.

Mars has little atmosphere, no clouds, and no discernable recent volcanic activity.  Its reflectivity is constant.  That means that the Martian temperature rise is a good indicator of increased solar output.  The Earth's reflectivity is changeable based on the extent of cloud cover.  If the amount of sunlight reaching the ground has decreased, as you say, despite increased solar infusion, then we can conclude that it is caused by significantly increased cloud cover.  That makes sense since higher surface temperatures will cause higher evaporation rates, and thus a more expansive cloud cover.  What we have demonstrated then is that the Earth has a very effective self regulating mechanism to control temperature.  The operation fits standard control system theory.  It's the same for everything from fly ball governors to op amps.  The control system must first detect an error before it can implement a correction.  The zone in which the correction is made is called the control band.  There is a high control band and a low control band.  Between them is the dead band where no control is required or generated.  Control systems that are modestly damped will have overshoot, which is to say that operation will rarely stay within the ideal confines of the dead band.  In Earth's case it will alternate between cold and hot.  There is a specific oscillation period for a control system which does not become apparent if the system is critically damped.  The Earth is not critically damped in its thermal control system, and it exhibits a period of approximately 500 years.

If, indeed, human activity has nudged the average temperature higher, the control system will generate all the more force "clouds" to bring it back down.

You and others may be willing to argue that our activity has broken the control system.  But, so far, there is no indication of that other than the speculation that pent up methanes and hydrides could over tax the control system.


So we should pollute until we get a signal which is totally undeniable?
The scare tactics (which you mention later) aren't from those concerned with Global Warming, they say that it is fixable.

There are scare tactics about but it's phony Terrorism not GW.

But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else.
But that doesn't invalidate it at all.

The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that there couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a pretty irresponsible argument.

Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove beyond a doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened in the past either.
There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree.
But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore it by throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate Gore and side with Bush, are you high?

Bush is not making my day in several areas.


Several areas? Ok so you are a Republican.

Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me to believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?

I thought you finally read my first post.  I said I want us off oil dependency.  I have a lot of time and money invested in that goal, but unfortunately with poor results.  What experiments have you done?


Plenty but this isn't the time...

You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and against alternative energy, are you a moron?

Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, you like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even if they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it as a way to avoid guilt)

I want truth, honesty, and facts on this subject.


Yeah, Right. (funnier in New Zealand, trust me)

Why is it that those against GW have different conflicting arguments, the only thing which unites them is they are anti (or an alternative or a different spin on) GW.
You don't argue that CO2 isn't effecting temperatures you argue that high CO2 we are experiencing is from Volcanoes. (I haven't noticed you argue that our CO2 isn;'t high)
You Argue that the sun is heating things up.
And yet you argue that GW meetings are being canceled due to the cold.

You throw up OOPART's hoping to distract us.

Instead, I see way too much hype, deception, and scare tactics.


Cause Bush isn't using deceptive scare tactics huh?

Again with all that's going on and you bash some Greens?
Al Gore is the only politician to address the issue, this is opposed in the mainstream media, the white house and both political parties.
No question which is the underdog.
------=_Part_3944_22802207.1177373429201-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 17:24:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O0Ohli012127; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:24:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O0OfdH012107; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:24:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:24:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nVRR87ywCpMb4F3Ohc0h8kK3J90pm6LN0a5y1Ln+6hI9yZFCX4DUS1z65Rn+DBvp5rqg5Zdn948MbIHuD6KomVK5Y5AYPVwxEqFLA+ccypQfiyt3Oilp4lNgUnCSWH8jvimsSQa6rBuAAoxRaOlXscHCJKc7okeU5B5QFpPCXNE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KfR2IhSxyE1+tQRuCBh3uj7D+rd0bIzWveJbGl88zpU+QfHEsiMobTvLfuWLEQJQi53bVWEqnvVWUGovuqiRHhboCO1lpB/uKce+IDX+WJVkYcp3pnrxaWyhAfPTEh9cjCjQLq3wk10baH36CBu9Iv/VBHG5nKGSzpmfSayip44= Message-ID: <462D4E3B.1030903@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:24:27 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal' References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> <462C55D3.7080907@usfamily.net> <462D0D13.6050700@gmail.com> <000901c785e2$e8522870$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> <462D2A64.8070107@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74498 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A new documentary, "Green: The New Red, White, and Blue" was just released on April 23 2007. DTMS, Discovery times channel is broadcasting this documentary right now. Listen to it and tell me man contributed CO2 is not the cause of Global Warming! Even Arnold Schwarzenegger states it's illogical to think over 2000 scientists latest claims are incorrect that man is cause of GW. I sent an email when they broadcast "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with Tom Brokaw," which goes over more details including interviews of climate scientists. Really the question should be how can "I" help decrease CO2 emissions. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 17:28:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O0RhEs013800; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:27:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O0RflL013767; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:27:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:27:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=QgBYQCqeWIssZoNjcon6bWbbS5heJdg+JHAj0XdNeJuFDw5Zz8kem0g0E8mq1mzJF6Ls7w6C2rkyazwl2ZQSqhA1ijTJuKcE/Z1v7YTQKc5GsNZqCgcBpHfZPXIkBitCW1RhiI1TBJLZhxAF9CG+Qm+uVrKxMVJ7OJl5mlaTxrs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nwnhOacM7IghIWNmEk3geCtaIcUVPWXYyHFbXh3K8SYRim8cl78t5ZydqYUGC4ZNDfqnwibxxxZvvzkjdr70cElMGW8z+a4SQGh8Tn4WQ37AZkh+YM1CyzoEByW8sh98MFe7NOXuJyT8pGcYHhcnUpikjbEj1ivsvmdUEMZwlnk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:27:37 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW In-Reply-To: <686642.29277.qm@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4112_11727220.1177374457667" References: <686642.29277.qm@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74499 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4112_11727220.1177374457667 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Balls! On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: > > You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it > always starts with "balls". Something Newtonian I guess. > > CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour. CO2 also causes > growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our > gardens. > > Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by > increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. How he does this, I haven't a clue, but > there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how > (and I) does this. > > Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real > feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant. You'd never > hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls". Is that because he's hiding his real > feelings? > > Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all > the others in this world, including Bush. > > P. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Berry > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW > > Balls. > The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't > based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a > stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to) > One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, > the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the > CO2 level or the temperature. > Technology can however. > > Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data > that CO2 has been rising? > Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite > undeniable. > > I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, > perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting > and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the > system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the > contrary. > It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food. > It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not > really present. > So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as > things are without preconceptions. > It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being > shallow not deep. > Truth isn't our friend, nor is light. > > Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies. > > It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing. > > > On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote: > > > > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly > > refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph > > that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the > > Industrial Revolution. These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but > > it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional > > nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) > > can make a killing. > > > > The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny > > humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, > > have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming. Like I > > said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance. Perhaps > > even try some solid science. > > > > P. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net> > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM > > Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW > > > > Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global > > warming". He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever > > and you buy it as gospel. > > > > > > > > There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility > > of some on this forum scares me. > > > > > > > > It has been much warmer not so long ago. > > > > > > > > Here is another example if your attention span will allow: > > > > > > > > We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 > > to 5000 feet. They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub > > freezing temps or strong winds. > > > > > > > > There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at > > Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet. They are exhibited in place in > > excavated pits. I saw them. But, they looked a little strange. They did > > not look entirely like rock. I asked about it at the visitor's center, and > > was told that they are only 50% fossilized. > > > > John. The rest is WOOD! > > > > John. How old aren't they? > > > > > > > > Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one > > of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. I saw it on display > > outside at Disneyland around 1995. It was located right next to the lake > > near Adventure Land . Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able > > to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now. > > > > > > > > There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up > > with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive > > mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data. > > > > > > > > Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in > > the late 70's. > > > > > > > > It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were > > cancelled due to extreme winter conditions. > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > P.S. > > > > > > > > John. This is only my third post in over a year. I read your stuff, and > > you post almost everyday. You could give me the courtesy of reading all of > > what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out > > specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened. > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 > > 8:18 PM > > > > > > ------=_Part_4112_11727220.1177374457667 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Balls!

On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls".  Something Newtonian I guess.

CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.  CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.

Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.  How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.

Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.  You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".  Is that because he's hiding his real feelings?

Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Balls.
The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.
Technology can however.

Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?
Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.

I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.
So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.
Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.

It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.


On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.

The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.

 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me.

 

It has been much warmer not so long ago.

 

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:

 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.

 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized.

John. The rest is WOOD! 

John. How old aren't they?

 

Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land .  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.

 

There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.

 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the late 70's. 

 

It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.

 

Jeff

 

P.S.

 

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM





------=_Part_4112_11727220.1177374457667-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 17:31:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O0VhF2019861; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:31:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O0Vfcw019843; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:31:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:31:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=iCAZZVIBLoygrpRIKkvjdUkw9aycDNU99exg8vU+ITZZq0yu3Aze5qgYZxkCO9WMK5wGEat1WRcLxKwCJeMuUndtODL0nlCRDQvehNk+vphhLds2xOTf5z8SNjq9NELajDXiyERFpyY8QK5JTIEODGCQTUfVbNPXXoDQsu+b/OU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=VW7UAqO3h+r1QydTEEPZjER8tt+svgMXvhxY3zDWbZVzJ7tfAN5qi2vmfzidcjoiVstKzi9eq9HY9/tUV3K9+t5cIj5VrM/Yb7rEN2v0sDV9QxIohhgLU4M0TKO108CA5+I6/fLDs7CAiuz01f/seBx7CR+22CizS21HNLWVtWQ= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:31:06 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4156_22936171.1177374666809" References: <686642.29277.qm@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <14fQ4D.A.91E.t_ULGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74500 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_4156_22936171.1177374666809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To expand on that, notice how the last thing Philip is interested in doing is refuting the evidence that CO2 and Temperature are linked. Or that CO2 is rising. The core of the argument is never argued. On 4/24/07, John Berry wrote: > > Balls! > > On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: > > > > You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it > > always starts with "balls". Something Newtonian I guess. > > > > CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour. CO2 also causes > > growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our > > gardens. > > > > Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by > > increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. How he does this, I haven't a clue, but > > there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how > > (and I) does this. > > > > Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real > > feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant. You'd never > > hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls". Is that because he's hiding his real > > feelings? > > > > Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of > > all the others in this world, including Bush. > > > > P. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: John Berry > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW > > > > Balls. > > The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't > > based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a > > stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to) > > One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny > > humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't > > effect the CO2 level or the temperature. > > Technology can however. > > > > Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the > > data that CO2 has been rising? > > Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite > > undeniable. > > > > I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from > > deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is > > disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people > > trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence > > to the contrary. > > It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food. > > It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, > > not really present. > > So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought > > as things are without preconceptions. > > It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being > > shallow not deep. > > Truth isn't our friend, nor is light. > > > > Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies. > > > > It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing. > > > > > > On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote: > > > > > > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly > > > refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph > > > that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the > > > Industrial Revolution. These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but > > > it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional > > > nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) > > > can make a killing. > > > > > > The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny > > > humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, > > > have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming. Like I > > > said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance. Perhaps > > > even try some solid science. > > > > > > P. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net> > > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM > > > Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW > > > > > > Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global > > > warming". He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever > > > and you buy it as gospel. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the > > > gullibility of some on this forum scares me. > > > > > > > > > > > > It has been much warmer not so long ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is another example if your attention span will allow: > > > > > > > > > > > > We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 > > > to 5000 feet. They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub > > > freezing temps or strong winds. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at > > > Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet. They are exhibited in place in > > > excavated pits. I saw them. But, they looked a little strange. They did > > > not look entirely like rock. I asked about it at the visitor's center, and > > > was told that they are only 50% fossilized. > > > > > > John. The rest is WOOD! > > > > > > John. How old aren't they? > > > > > > > > > > > > Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought > > > one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. I saw it on > > > display outside at Disneyland around 1995. It was located right next to the > > > lake near Adventure Land . Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be > > > able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up > > > with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive > > > mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with > > > in the late 70's. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were > > > cancelled due to extreme winter conditions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. > > > > > > > > > > > > John. This is only my third post in over a year. I read your stuff, > > > and you post almost everyday. You could give me the courtesy of reading all > > > of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out > > > specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened. > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: > > > 4/22/2007 8:18 PM > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_4156_22936171.1177374666809 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To expand on that, notice how the last thing Philip is interested in doing is refuting the evidence that CO2 and Temperature are linked.
Or that CO2 is rising.

The core of the argument is never argued.

On 4/24/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
Balls!


On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls".  Something Newtonian I guess.

CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.  CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.

Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.  How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.

Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.  You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".  Is that because he's hiding his real feelings?

Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Balls.
The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.
Technology can however.

Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?
Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.

I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.
So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.
Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.

It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.


On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.

The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.

 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me.

 

It has been much warmer not so long ago.

 

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:

 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.

 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized.

John. The rest is WOOD! 

John. How old aren't they?

 

Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land .  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.

 

There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.

 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the late 70's. 

 

It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.

 

Jeff

 

P.S.

 

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM






------=_Part_4156_22936171.1177374666809-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 17:34:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O0Ya3m020241; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:34:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O0YXvv020188; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:34:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:34:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <157E51B756364CBDA3229F1DE73B1173@LeChoisis> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <237186.75433.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462C53FB.40906@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <462C53FB.40906@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 01:34:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16386 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16386 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74501 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh, forgot to mention - Of course CO2 rising followed ocean temperature changes (due to natural events) IN THE PAST. That is only to be expected. Those who point to this as some sort of proof that CO2 has no effect on global warming, and that the GW scientists have it back to front, are verging on barking mad. It does not prove that the current temperature rise has caused the elevated CO2 levels we see. That is highly illogical. In the past there was no excess source of CO2 injected into the atmosphere over hundreds of years at an increasing rate (along with increased deforestation and disruption of CO2 sinks too...). Volcanoes only temporarily "out CO2" us. In short, even if past records of ice cores etc of CO2 versus temperature show that CO2 incerases do not naturally lead temperature that is no "get out of jail free card" because forced injection of increasing amounts of sequestered carbon into the atmosphere, over hundreds of years, obviously can drive temperature... and is... and will... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 19:06:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O26910022692; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:06:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O267HZ022670; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:06:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:06:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:05:57 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74502 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past > erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. > Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." IOW, humanity > continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year. No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much CO2 as all human sources. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 21:38:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O4catI005957; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:38:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O4cNFo005897; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:38:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:38:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:36:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74503 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:CF compared to a chimera Status: O X-Status: from http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2007/straight_2007-04-05.cfm "Sometimes a Nobel is given to a guy who=B9s a flake but probably deserves it anyhow. One case in point is Cambridge University professor Brian Josephson= , who was awarded a Nobel Prize in physics in 1973 for predicting how electrons could tunnel through an insulating barrier. Later in life, Josephson became a believer in the paranormal and a fan of such chimeras as cold fusion and homeopathy; he directed the Mind-Matter Unification Project= , which among other things tried to use physics to explain telepathy." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 23 17:20:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3O0KL9C010322; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3O0KIrC010296; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=2gJ9Es+MhJShf1alKkbNCyW0Eqc0UNe1Xl6x344I6AVHzTQK1atgglrOp4JaKKEBsXPaYvk+Te8nmdbPxhY8M/GeHxd7wHHNNN9WKjqeVQaLo4kxpYmmdZEB0/dx8p7+nlDI7UjM2KTnR3HdOi/7Mi/jbhsBmQV6jOy9NyHTByM=; X-YMail-OSG: HcJPcwQVM1nDijrvhl3M25krLXCuWaEm6vgQe_uSXezlRWWxRqAcU8If_K3QalIoBhrKEXE.S4CQdW7SC0DBApdepXcu7J1KygH4hKKg47c15LejjLc- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.10 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:16 -0700 (PDT) From: PHILIP WINESTONE Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1127486864-1177374016=:29277" Message-ID: <686642.29277.qm@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74497 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: --0-1127486864-1177374016=:29277 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls". Something Newtonian I guess. CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour. CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens. Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this. Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant. You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls". Is that because he's hiding his real feelings? Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush. P. ----- Original Message ---- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Balls. The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to) One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature. Technology can however. Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising? Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable. I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary. It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food. It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present. So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions. It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep. Truth isn't our friend, nor is light. Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies. It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing. On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote: Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution. These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing. The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming. Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance. Perhaps even try some solid science. P. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global warming". He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel. There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me. It has been much warmer not so long ago. Here is another example if your attention span will allow: We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet. They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds. There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet. They are exhibited in place in excavated pits. I saw them. But, they looked a little strange. They did not look entirely like rock. I asked about it at the visitor's center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. John. The rest is WOOD! John. How old aren't they? Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995. It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land . Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now. There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data. Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the late 70's. It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions. Jeff P.S. John. This is only my third post in over a year. I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday. You could give me the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM --0-1127486864-1177374016=:29277 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii
You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls".  Something Newtonian I guess.

CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.  CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.

Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.  How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.

Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.  You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".  Is that because he's hiding his real feelings?

Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Balls.
The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.
Technology can however.

Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?
Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.

I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.
So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.
Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.

It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.


On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.

The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.

 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me.

 

It has been much warmer not so long ago.

 

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:

 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.

 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized.

John. The rest is WOOD! 

John. How old aren't they?

 

Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land .  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.

 

There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.

 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the late 70's. 

 

It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.

 

Jeff

 

P.S.

 

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM




--0-1127486864-1177374016=:29277-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 04:20:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OBKaRn016518; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:20:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OBKXAl016502; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:20:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:20:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bKR6/9Nmi62QXhjmnJjfOgzSHSITYz2F0hnK0eEYqYSy4PNSf7LpVNFbNzZ0SoMSRoGpNV1IC6CVUvfS0q0PLxRFY6lgN99269gU3caCdJXTxPx+ngX0h/lJntBKtQXaiHgOshv9llOfO7xwmRlWeYmRhq4EwembVu/VIQrcul8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=eB3F5Zz27RRJNx90BDGqFZKY4s74oFkhDqjZ+qu6YpEuLqMnj4hn/ubK3xY3K5wQUGQbdaiDCa+ljawHuN0TaqtZDkSKX2jo0weM11y6FNTEaafQlA6NMZ5c8s5Vm2Xe9spVqE4Rc4ijhkpNRbeAeYUmXhJBMFUBGMXGG7e42kY= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:20:31 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10496_2069099.1177413631460" References: <20070421153224.65747.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <462AF307.30807@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74504 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_10496_2069099.1177413631460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/23/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > Terry (wishing he had a detachable penis) > > Hell no, you'd put it down somewhere and lose it. ------=_Part_10496_2069099.1177413631460 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 4/23/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:


Terry (wishing he had a detachable penis)

Hell no, you'd put it down somewhere and lose it.
------=_Part_10496_2069099.1177413631460-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 05:38:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OCbrlb028596; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:37:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OCbkgV028530; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:37:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 05:37:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1824241408.1177418258283.JavaMail.root@fepweb07> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 5:37:38 -0700 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Cc: thomas malloy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal X-Originating-IP: from 71.90.24.38 by mail.charter.net; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 8:37:38 -0400 X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74506 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Paul Lowrance wrote: > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past > > erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. > > Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." IOW, humanity > > continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year. > > > No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much > CO2 as all human sources. > If the video gives no concrete reference point other than to state, "10 times as much CO2 as all human sources" then it is useless data. Such a claim can be interpreted anyway that is most convenient. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 06:29:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3ODSv4Q026078; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:28:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3ODSsZO026030; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:28:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:28:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=AcPDT+U+4EhPeYWHCWDPFvm67Ydzf4ikZBArK6PT5drrGbt0gZrxfDPpepZ0DnKwTBV9QaBG/8lp8n1Hbof058fs5OXUFNMuqaKJrXcTDjU9y+r+G1pSd1JSe0grVFIsoxjh51ddJ4VpCdK2THuc44nv6K00Rh1GcyJsk0gx5ZU=; X-YMail-OSG: SnSe.EsVM1kPUuevjpEpEq9hfHumZYxgdUwK9GulkmM5CLQ4iaoF5UQDSd3ETVmMD2vSan2V.X7L3OgwtfD05HUp6Q-- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:28:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <899206.54524.qm@web82709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74507 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Another step > carbon neutral Status: O X-Status: Finally, the Europeans move into the cutting edge of renewable fuel http://www.algaefuels.org/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 06:52:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3ODqMk8007770; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:52:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3ODqLV8007759; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:52:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:52:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=gmoTAOvkGhNdnv5xCxcKyFAaWUgzDtguTSJ+4PWz3CCrR6z79L7l9cD8S7UzAP3cPMEE/yjANqJiSDa5iv5jcBf6x23AhMJFhGGp0SHmEEE6ui3zkhcn93vIa+1byXtHPNMrWOvUz9YTePTWmL4TGA8jD6EBwgQWTONmsY1pnUo=; X-YMail-OSG: hnj6BSgVM1mRXNwpOpIPKofv5RZRWtOsYHybgWALKZqFfWhRO7M1yG9T0QpSf6lrQ6Dow6pMyyPvw.pFnIUgPQOaueeH9PDNJ2h3PVlE07rS0Ju_cJOoywtArfzSxA-- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 06:52:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <389546.8950.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74508 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:The MIT version Status: O X-Status: This is likely the inspiration for the European "knock-off" bioreactor http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2004/algae.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 08:00:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OExoXP028265; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:59:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OExld6028229; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:59:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:59:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kJtGth6r+mXDaHQpzBM2yeco8IsA2aJMwSLrKyy/kANijuQ3xDieaZle5uXvaZMZZXCP1Oq8iM+J44Spze7shdNmoi0ahv4tHZfXFxmi2NCfYgyE5xXVtlJ08yCWRpIWXrNPxusoy4MW255nYsWY+dL5VTse590IAh4Dm8U/Ijs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CtBQjmXkNlxjHEdE9l3qaMZ0jNEsgzJRrD3lOhTTftu0c+z2iIltzjeA5WrmRa7LpmkL7b6TeS0s+96+sfQTJ0CiNadYU3+hqxkFYd0ZEVMgPO00pifIYbAxGsvwxlwFVrAx1fkOOVA8S9cSJQ83nSYV7DgcqV7xoAQiGSPHKqk= Message-ID: <462E1B57.7030307@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:59:35 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3c5DmC.A.-4G.jthLGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74509 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> thomas malloy wrote: >> > John Berry wrote: >> >> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past >> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. >> Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." IOW, humanity >> continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year. > > > No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much > CO2 as all human sources. Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth" narrated by Al Gore? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 08:05:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OF53wC024256; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:05:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OF4wJQ024202; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:04:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:04:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=P7XsUHr1Gxc1VCenmztdDGiIA6PkhROASOQADSX35JxjU2EA4apS1CwgBHIaN6D1trGY4/8qXPu0S48uJ4Lbj6WiBRY79+oMMqBBpkrfDV3zOFfso05eRbgGRYvqv04CGFXncOSgZBNMRFhIa7ghYvd8hMAJwvAn2LarM/JDifM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=p02xIEVqH30t9Xd1rs6ZBqHX+zIZni6nIMSoj1NJtvP0IsF8DG3qmqi0KZYjEFz5pHOp5HiQ8oIW+p8BCziymFnyhfeNAbEYNxQ3QXOPK6uugw42uRzykPwMEPfO+FrPwGfQBYG6wFn5prVxMBq2tPUkxL3qysh24wGyF712KGs= Message-ID: <462E1C8B.6040509@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:04:43 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74510 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> thomas malloy wrote: >> > John Berry wrote: >> >> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past >> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. >> Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." IOW, humanity >> continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year. > > > No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much > CO2 as all human sources. Was that in reference to Africa's volcano Nyiragongo? Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 09:44:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OGiaLO001635; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:44:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OGiWOl001598; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:44:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:44:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=oBpucNpUC5NGh8lHhFAJ+Brqs9Za1Eduob6DgtsV0t3JGLHCfxr9u8PTg5pL90/y0iSZrMpKqZzxtXhRL1SpiPL5viWE1zKyr9+Tof1/N50677DlcPui6lPB/kM0WQyeDxozs98qy7zUb3ugN3Ub8PjkDAGo+OJs2v7mCQZiffY=; X-YMail-OSG: g5XWbW0VM1nRgg6FUogMfeAzSOzZoixfIbhHRfoukhoLeIGhO7MyNl8bhKmvPxmMz23WEpjRWMMRZfXKgf.me3mZ74CRjToFFn15CfsvMyE9VxFiI.fCHOoJ4vajIw-- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:42:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <678844.89120.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <27CzzC.A.2Y.vPjLGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74511 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:The CO2 "Branson Membrane" Status: O X-Status: Richard Branson, virgin-deluxe, may end-up looking devinely "inspired" (meme-brain) because of a James-Burkean "Connection" which he probably has not even anticipated. We may even call that future connection the prize winning 'Branson membrane.' Everyone who has thought about the Branson prize has looked into the principles and processes involved in CO2 removal from a mixed gas stream. Fred Sparber has mentioned some techniques. There is not much CO2 percentage-wise in air, but the economics for direct removal still look decent IF (and probably ONLY IF) that CO2 is immediately recycled into biofuel, to displace some of the fossil fuel that casued it in the first place. It makes no sense to pump CO2 into the ground. Wiki has a good CO2 article except it neglects much of the 'recycling into biofuel' info below: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide Carbon dioxide is in the category of acid gases (as is hydrogen sulfide and nitrogen oxides) and since it is found in natural gas - where in combination with water vapor, it becomes highly corrosive and rapidly destroys pipelines and equipment- unless it is removed- we already know how to remove it quickly and cheaply and enrich it from methane. A key point here is that - on exposure to water, CO2 comes a highly reactive chemical and is no longer "inert". This is a key to how its own chemistry allows an extraordinary conversion percentage (>100% of apparent solar energy). The technology for membrane removal of CO2 (and other methods) is already highly advanced for methane- and that implies an easy route to the Branson Prize for someone. Probably sooner rather than later. Let's hope so, but not for the prize alone. There is much much more which can be bootstraped onto a "Branson Membrane" in the rural USA. The 'acidity' of CO2 (carbolic acid etc) is actually the key to a complex chemical pathway which allows solar radiation to interact with algae as a catalyst, and produce more net chemical energy than if 100% of the solar energy falling on the surface of the bioreactor were being converted. Algae farming is not simply solar conversion - in fact, it is more similar to a chemical factory which uses a solar-photons as a catalyst. Growing algae is most efficient if you add CO2 and heat externally, instead of having an open pond heated by the sun. Forced CO2 and added heat results in an order of magnitude faster algae doubling-time this way. This is how and why the various companies making the bioreactors can claim biodiesel outputs of over 10,000 gallons per acre per year. I have seen one claim of 20,000. OTOH - An open pond in a northern latitude without forced CO2 will be lucky to return 1000 gallons per acre-year. If this high figure were true in practice, and with a value to the algae-farmer of ~$2 gallon (near future) - how long will it be before many in rural areas will be poised to convert a few acres of land into biodiesel production? - especially once the techniques for active CO2 removal become perfected and disseminated? That may be the big follow-on advantage of the Branson Prize and other similar incentives. We may well be just now, in 2007, on the cusp of this massive change in how we will fuel the USA in the coming years - pending as an alternative - a breakthrough in LENR or ZPE conversion (magnetics) etc. If any of those comes along, biofuel will still be a sensible stopgap measue. CO2 is presently being removed in mega-tonnage from natural gas pipelines by a wide variety of technologies including absorption processes such as the Benfield process (hot potassium carbonate) and various Amine processes (formulated solvents); cryogenic processes; adsorption processes, such as pressure swing adsorption (PSA), thermal swing adsorption (TSA) and iron sponge ... and ta-da: specialty membranes. Only a variety of the membrane process is likely to be cheap and simple enough to be developed for removing CO2 from air for use in aquaculture by small farmers. Don't forget that in the South (USA) before tobacco became a no-no, there perhaps 100,000 small farmers in a handfull of states with so-called "allotments" of a few acres. They were not making nearly as much money on that addictive drug back then, as they could be in the near future- making biodiesel. Lets see: if and when these farmer convert their 5 acre plot over to biodiesel - that is 5 billion gallons worth $10 billion which stays at home instead of letting our Saudi friends use it to reinvest in American companies or else kill young American soldiers in Iraq and Afganistan. If you remove enough CO2, using a diesel engine to power the process, you can easily imagine a self-powering process where some of your biofuel powers the diesel engine which pumps air through a "Branson Membrane" and recovers tons of CO2, which together with its own emission and waste heat is recycled into the bioreactors. This may become so popular in rural Appalachia, for instance, that it becomes necesary to put small algae farmers on some kind of "biofuel allotment"... yeah ... in my dreams... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 10:11:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OHBQIl022596; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:11:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OHBOG3022583; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:11:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:11:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <462E3A31.10306@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:11:13 -0500 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> <462E1B57.7030307@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <462E1B57.7030307@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74512 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul Lowrance wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > >> Paul Lowrance wrote: >> >>> thomas malloy wrote: >>> > John Berry wrote: >>> >>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past >>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given >>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." >>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year >>> after year. >> >> >> >> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as >> much CO2 as all human sources. > > > > Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth" > narrated by Al Gore? > Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos, and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2. You really should watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 10:21:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OHLQa1027521; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:21:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OHLPFI027498; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:21:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:21:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CfkzXFUR7aK946lpavnsmLDE2+Ls0kShYClO+TDJOzOhupPphayOLB7LoVXY2uDR+FzL0h+lO34oRm+GsVo30j6T5BxfNsMQqcH7NFWgvnZhbKZqy5kZXkOse/WAtRDA95N7a95F2OutOQY3ZpP5Ik/QGsMedHfP3GUP8wVRAsw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=N3TN6J9BKMEc/Chfxgk0Rof2x0YGRsVKJli7+PKpLRHKWSOW4oo0tuYZhxkywdwLFz+ONmlvbrEVh+8itnkJk61tbKpwyMU6Z6ynGR5zkc/eSeX0lXSBpMJYa6UmT5oLlKR+hXENCUp5f3MwcZNLcLm/DrYs1/P0iLwzK/HOysg= Message-ID: <462E3C87.9000509@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:21:11 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6MGU4.A.etG.UyjLGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74513 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >>> Paul Lowrance wrote: >>> >>>> thomas malloy wrote: >>>> > John Berry wrote: >>>> >>>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past >>>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given >>>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." >>>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year >>>> after year. >>> >>> >>> >>> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as >>> much CO2 as all human sources. >> >> >> >> Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth" >> narrated by Al Gore? >> > Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question > man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic > produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow > increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos, > and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea > volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention > that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2. > > You really should watch the video > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU You are greatly twisting and misinterpreting information. After some research it turns out you're terribly incorrect. Volcanoes spew out more *pollutants* such as SO2 than humans, but volcanoes do ***NOT*** create any where near as much CO2 as humans. In 2003 humans created ~140 times more CO2 than all the volcanoes on the entire planet combined, including all the volcanoes under water, and it's probably higher in 2007.. http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html Scroll down to "Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human activities" http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html Here's Al Gores Global Warming speech: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2565436963450479963&q=%22An+Inconvenient+Truth%22+al+gore+duration%3Along&hl=en Scroll to 27:12 minutes to see the CO2 & temperature chart spanning the past 400,000 years that includes present humanity. See all of the ice age cycles, but when it hits modern time the CO2 spikes to ~5 times the maximum of any ice age!!! Here's an image of the chart --> http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg Notice how CO2, yellow line at the right, suddenly increases by ~5 times the max of any ice age when modern humanity arrives. That is Global Warming!!! It is *NOT* caused by volcanoes. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 10:25:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OHP10k029834; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:25:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OHOx4Y029799; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:24:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:24:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kwtHrUtE6ZMZkwBg9CQwIDHrQF22BXFy9LlUl2ITHWRZhLz9lcvm/Yg1fP8BwNap4HnaX/RjCUK337ug36bmQOu6MXUqNGRTR6yvUlFc33+c0iIN02i9MyXZquH+TuyWb+YwmtFp2rkAhjy4fyiFji1lVWxONLVrmF7FpN+kEvo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=suLMus+C5n/KpVJIKVrbkcLcmZrfeVc8ToAimoAZfA8gD6F0krKVIOuhNBvbdgRWCojMbxf3CIVqRKRKd5uK9EUVMlT3IygYITRX0QN+4BKjE6Xiz33z3X+EFYyvS0q3t57s9dL6taiUUXPmFl5nwOHUe4QVJltum0rFo6rhTds= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 05:24:53 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW In-Reply-To: <462E3A31.10306@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16569_16557754.1177435493676" References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> <462E1B57.7030307@gmail.com> <462E3A31.10306@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74514 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_16569_16557754.1177435493676 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thomas, so what? Are you saying you have no doubt that man can pollute unchecked and be assured no impact on the climate? Even if you did why should pollution and oil be supported, even in your right wing view of the world shouldn't Oil be given up for an alternative energy? Are you trying to support those evil Arab terrorists who hate your freedom and want to kill you? Am I 100% convinced by conventional GW, no. But there is a very real chance and I don't believe in fucking with nature for the sake of it and I believe in supporting alternative energy. And despite what someone said the most common topic of this list is alternative energy. (not the only topic) On 4/25/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > Paul Lowrance wrote: > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > >> Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> > >>> thomas malloy wrote: > >>> > John Berry wrote: > >>> > >>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past > >>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given > >>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." > >>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year > >>> after year. > >> > >> > >> > >> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as > >> much CO2 as all human sources. > > > > > > > > Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth" > > narrated by Al Gore? > > > Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question > man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic > produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow > increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos, > and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea > volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention > that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2. > > You really should watch the video > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > ------=_Part_16569_16557754.1177435493676 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thomas, so what?

Are you saying you have no doubt that man can pollute unchecked and be assured no impact on the climate?
Even if you did why should pollution and oil be supported, even in your right wing view of the world shouldn't Oil be given up for an alternative energy?
Are you trying to support those evil Arab terrorists who hate your freedom and want to kill you?

Am I 100% convinced by conventional GW, no.
But there is a very real chance and I don't believe in fucking with nature for the sake of it and I believe in supporting alternative energy.

And despite what someone said the most common topic of this list is alternative energy. (not the only topic)

On 4/25/07, thomas malloy < temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Paul Lowrance wrote:

> thomas malloy wrote:
>
>> Paul Lowrance wrote:
>>
>>> thomas malloy wrote:
>>> > John Berry wrote:
>>>
>>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past
>>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given
>>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."
>>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year
>>> after year.
>>
>>
>>
>> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as
>> much  CO2 as  all human sources.
>
>
>
> Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth"
> narrated by Al Gore?
>
Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question
man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic
produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow
increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos,
and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea
volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention
that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2.

You really should watch the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


------=_Part_16569_16557754.1177435493676-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 10:26:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OHQcE2031301; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:26:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OHQaY6031276; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:26:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:26:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WwrjwzmUmhjV7j2I++mYrNU/mQVD4rcEI8D+Ap3HXE2VPEf+zbHirvaB7cYq6nrb79uPMn6drcTxIaz6Smp/+Op4JHxTIiXeKaxiowFIg+ipO/PYK+AyaB4kD7cnQgvMdAmfuFy4k213tylWPHLsdXbfOQ4C4b5tSmnLv5SDsb8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cKA2xb7jUHiLShPPBaHvVriggVj0zpkaLDYig5J3Bp5CfLgEVhABoUzSgHWgtbSSUZOAMmoioFw2DTb5waNaS5rtbwuxU0vx6BtC4KMIwunwg4YVKxz7aGoHVV1qz63do/2Ial4M1JieaSMDe5wZ0wMAGwYEEyPCsBvCn8xmGu8= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 05:26:34 +1200 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW In-Reply-To: <462E3C87.9000509@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16593_11836831.1177435593939" References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net> <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com> <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> <462E3C87.9000509@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74515 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_16593_11836831.1177435593939 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I knew that Volcaino sh*t was bunk, thanks for finding the evidence. On 4/25/07, Paul Lowrance wrote: > > thomas malloy wrote: > > Paul Lowrance wrote: > > > >> thomas malloy wrote: > >> > >>> Paul Lowrance wrote: > >>> > >>>> thomas malloy wrote: > >>>> > John Berry wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past > >>>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given > >>>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." > >>>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year > >>>> after year. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as > >>> much CO2 as all human sources. > >> > >> > >> > >> Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth" > >> narrated by Al Gore? > >> > > Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question > > man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic > > produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow > > increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos, > > and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea > > volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention > > that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2. > > > > You really should watch the video > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU > > > > You are greatly twisting and misinterpreting information. After some > research it > turns out you're terribly incorrect. Volcanoes spew out more *pollutants* > such > as SO2 than humans, but volcanoes do ***NOT*** create any where near as > much CO2 > as humans. In 2003 humans created ~140 times more CO2 than all the > volcanoes on > the entire planet combined, including all the volcanoes under water, and > it's > probably higher in 2007.. > > http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html > Scroll down to "Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human > activities" > > http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html > > > Here's Al Gores Global Warming speech: > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2565436963450479963&q=%22An+Inconvenient+Truth%22+al+gore+duration%3Along&hl=en > > Scroll to 27:12 minutes to see the CO2 & temperature chart spanning the > past > 400,000 years that includes present humanity. See all of the ice age > cycles, but > when it hits modern time the CO2 spikes to ~5 times the maximum of any ice > age!!! Here's an image of the chart --> > > http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg > > Notice how CO2, yellow line at the right, suddenly increases by ~5 times > the max > of any ice age when modern humanity arrives. That is Global Warming!!! It > is > *NOT* caused by volcanoes. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > ------=_Part_16593_11836831.1177435593939 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I knew that Volcaino sh*t was bunk, thanks for finding the evidence.

On 4/25/07, Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com > wrote:
thomas malloy wrote:
> Paul Lowrance wrote:
>
>> thomas malloy wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Lowrance wrote:
>>>
>>>> thomas malloy wrote:
>>>> > John Berry wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past
>>>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given
>>>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."
>>>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year
>>>> after year.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as
>>> much  CO2 as  all human sources.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth"
>> narrated by Al Gore?
>>
> Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question
> man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic
> produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow
> increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos,
> and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea
> volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention
> that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2.
>
> You really should watch the video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU



You are greatly twisting and misinterpreting information. After some research it
turns out you're terribly incorrect. Volcanoes spew out more *pollutants* such
as SO2 than humans, but volcanoes do ***NOT*** create any where near as much CO2
as humans.  In 2003 humans created ~140 times more CO2 than all the volcanoes on
the entire planet combined, including all the volcanoes under water, and it's
probably higher in 2007..

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html
Scroll down to "Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human activities"

http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html


Here's Al Gores Global Warming speech:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2565436963450479963&q=%22An+Inconvenient+Truth%22+al+gore+duration%3Along&hl=en

Scroll to 27:12 minutes to see the CO2 & temperature chart spanning the past
400,000 years that includes present humanity. See all of the ice age cycles, but
when it hits modern time the CO2 spikes to ~5 times the maximum of any ice
age!!!  Here's an image of the chart -->

http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg

Notice how CO2, yellow line at the right, suddenly increases by ~5 times the max
of any ice age when modern humanity arrives. That is Global Warming!!! It is
*NOT* caused by volcanoes.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance


------=_Part_16593_11836831.1177435593939-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 10:47:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OHkw67023572; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:46:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OHkvF1023557; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:46:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:46:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=LaM5SJl9wxYb3F8kM6XUBmsO6nBDqolahhKU3Siv0AQOCaTkSGOqEYlKD3h/OzvEDmqVUu51fOmf8DB7sCPjqxqULo1IDGcuOCcy/kTsOwFOmPYren1kHKjC6vWZ6jcfcMzB4vdBkD2z4xJipnVWyQFrl3JPhc2sdrY9XJ90H8I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=sZ4GqLsVAnfbJjkBMzv+osByRlp5nY9WggkigKd3LptyU7ZIhcRSlBvIP9SFfl9YUzmqkEKRLIuYC04WlaakPbzGQcZZogS592oD37R7Zc0KlTDJRfmhYpCiAWYsQB/Jye2VNsCJJNalTs4ebzBSi11OH09kdaKlVkOp8vrbN14= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:46:53 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <8UAG8C.A.9vF.QKkLGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74516 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases Status: O X-Status: Nitrogen 78.084% Oxygen 20.946% Argon 0.934% Carbon dioxide 0.038% Water vapor 1% Other 0.002% CO2 content has increased 0.008% in my lifetime. I must be missing something. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 11:11:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OIB6M3001987; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:11:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OIB2di001941; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:11:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:11:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Kl/8ympe0f8JFphLBpI3pkQY+rwySWheAtA18yq0jBvdVXemhITTFeTHncBahcCo6F7nLcwog5L/I1hEhDmeykGx9vbwixaT7MSAPZzwmQWQPMAjXNpRQbTHiA8psMD/W8exDZt9i6fe9ApdiJw3wJf/I9HYHQkbrAWjQKjnL/o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZikIgMTOAUCWOgbV61YWVflhJvMGWNGIaUQfHIr4WxMoHTff+vPs9yzSWHeoHOZfBhOa3besE7cK3cdvh2PD6Wnw8jywgfTnJguB3lCELoJQu8UGHjYT42liJSDUS2ynbiR8UBj4HdOm8gWHKHm9Ulo0SzvYqVlFlWlW5AczjbQ= Message-ID: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:10:49 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2Wl79D.A.Le.1gkLGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74517 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Nitrogen 78.084% > Oxygen 20.946% > Argon 0.934% > Carbon dioxide 0.038% > Water vapor 1% > Other 0.002% > > CO2 content has increased 0.008% in my lifetime. > > I must be missing something. > > Terry Then I calculate you to be ~2.2 years old, LOL. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0203-03.htm http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg Quote: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipcc.ch%2FSPM2feb07.pdf&ei=HUYuRtyVGp-QigGm94yLAw&usg=AFrqEzco11WPrpvAFxct-QFhkhls7QzqdQ&sig2=I6Yeyx6-KIn05khIRTVFXA "Carbon dioxide is the most important anthropogenic greenhouse gas (see Figure SPM-2). The global atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide has increased from a pre-industrial value of about 280 ppm to 379 ppm in 2005. The atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide in 2005 exceeds by far the natural range over the last 650,000 years (180 to 300 ppm) as determined from ice cores. The annual carbon dioxide concentration growth-rate was larger during the last 10 years (1995 - 2005 average: 1.9 ppm per year), than has been since the beginning of continuous direct atmospheric measurements (1960 - 2005 average: 1.4 ppm per year) although there is year-to-year variability in growth rates." Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 12:06:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OJ6EOe000457; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:06:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OJ6Cwd000439; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:06:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:06:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=ucn/cnD/Bgu+s12RfLJ8AvtnqA+/yNF0jSWtssu9G/e7BgQ3/kWMPfeptVGMfeezaXo8EtkP8gqpgQYn02k1JnViXZRAYhOGfluhMmcW5VQCQevvKhfm72/j5dsmN1JW9W89Oi403Gfuz0GZDIU9fa0aOcme5FhLE2z2XguFfBU=; X-YMail-OSG: ReTwjGMVM1lxrBlH9N7TXr4FBMDb4H83XdHFeYQskd1oyMRL_1v2sET5XQYaAgm2wecE3NRn.Q-- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:06:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <601652.52472.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74518 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Simply sublime? Orthocarbonic acid Status: O X-Status: Kind of slow spring day .... IOW ... Surf's Up !! Wiki mentions Deep Ocean storage of CO2. The following is all theoretical bogosity - but it is true that at sufficiently high pressure, which in the ocean corresponds to around 500 meters depth: CO2 in the presence of water - i.e. CO2+ 2 H2O is believed to form a mysterious and (apparently) inert compound called orthocarbonic acid, or C(OH)4. Problem is - no one really knows if it is inert or not. But we damn sure know that all those hydroxyls make it seem pretty potent... and if nothing else, this may be how those foamy bottles of Guiness stout get all the impossible amount of bubbles. Burp. Hmm... that "apparently" inert compound C(OH)4 would certainly be unstable if suddenly the pressure were reduced - leading one to wonder if there is some way to manipulate the hydroxyl radicals, free the carbon and "reburn" even in the ocean depths... ...perhaps over and over... like maybe to heat that "USO base" which is supposedly over a mile deep in the Bermuda Triangle, off of Puerto Rico .... get's pretty chilly down there and E.T. don't got much hair, as they say. ...hey, even if E.T. got to Earth using higher tech means - they may need to save most of their di-lithium crystals to get back to Sirius, one of these days, after the mission is accomplished. Obviously, this orthocarbonic acid manipulation would ostensibly violate the LoT if the energy released were far greater than the pressurization energy -- except that CO2 can be frozen easily in cold climates to dry ice - which in half again denser than water, and will then be able to sink, to any level, in the ocean (if insulated) ... ergo in one sense, the high pressurization is "free." ... see where this is going? Yes, there is an obiovus error in the logic, but it sounds good enough to be a hard-science-fiction theme... and any number of Vo's will buy it 'as is'.... matter of fact Hoagland is on the phone now - wanting to buy full rights to the concept... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 12:30:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OJULrp032022; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:30:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OJUIBQ032001; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:30:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:30:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DIwgPWu2xcc9tnHxbKyGQ5FTFUCvGC0+cg+x0VABvMBB8jgvqb14tE6UqpLKh00IwHqW4Srbu4QlafSSHkkrZSoQWofm67OTsyevsn5e+hdPtGY1+QGlkI7xbBpZnyw9cDXJNDHlScdN/EOSQgbMI/xY2GYEgP1bmCXxF2x9pIM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kaG1VsU0LdFtUDCuSKDtDmIFAfdiDGzRrda8zCLWCa+xSLcZFL+C3DwG3hu7LPtZPs0Xtcsm22vYuUB0zWT7fJDfJRkYk/ZIyb5PloZEuTQpoqBihgNpOp4YUHwikk54WPo2qEFo009e22Qgs8PreAeCppp2+kg4XCzCft+EabA= Message-ID: <462E5AC1.6030108@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:30:09 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Simply sublime? Orthocarbonic acid References: <601652.52472.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <601652.52472.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5EitWD.A.7zH.KrlLGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74519 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: [snip] > Yes, there is an obiovus > error in the logic, but it sounds good enough to be a > hard-science-fiction theme... and any number of Vo's > will buy it 'as is'.... matter of fact Hoagland is on > the phone now - wanting to buy full rights to the > concept... LOL, Hoagland ... Good one Jones! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 04:46:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OBkRcO025121; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:46:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OBkQpk025103; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:46:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:46:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=kX9S9WKDpUr43hUl0+o3T2AxV9NVFzrmdTECMDqiyMlGturG37NOd0Cg92+M7b1yT+eFn5FhTCrE4TSUmq1P8yHAgElz2KUweOg4iTyc+usrYGrXRijkHbLxCuTfYpyt5nHYCwuUslPSZwP3P+hPsto41OZA7Do9nuOpS2pBI7E=; X-YMail-OSG: sd0qR1oVM1le9w63sbichCSTvK9uj9JpEcEBB3OuluKUp0mO64M2RlYPvJZY9uTnig-- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.10 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 04:46:24 -0700 (PDT) From: PHILIP WINESTONE Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-289923317-1177415184=:22941" Message-ID: <847944.22941.qm@web88010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74505 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: --0-289923317-1177415184=:22941 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Actually, for the purposes of scientific argument, "bollocks" is much preferred. P. ----- Original Message ---- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:27:37 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Balls! On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls". Something Newtonian I guess. CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour. CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens. Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this. Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant. You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls". Is that because he's hiding his real feelings? Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush. P. ----- Original Message ---- From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Balls. The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to) One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature. Technology can however. Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising? Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable. I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary. It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food. It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present. So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions. It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep. Truth isn't our friend, nor is light. Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies. It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing. On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote: Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution. These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing. The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming. Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance. Perhaps even try some solid science. P. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global warming". He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel. There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me. It has been much warmer not so long ago. Here is another example if your attention span will allow: We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet. They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds. There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet. They are exhibited in place in excavated pits. I saw them. But, they looked a little strange. They did not look entirely like rock. I asked about it at the visitor's center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. John. The rest is WOOD! John. How old aren't they? Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995. It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land . Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now. There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data. Again I wonder. What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the late 70's. It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions. Jeff P.S. John. This is only my third post in over a year. I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday. You could give me the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM --0-289923317-1177415184=:22941 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii
Actually, for the purposes of scientific argument, "bollocks" is much preferred.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:27:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Balls!

On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls".  Something Newtonian I guess.

CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.  CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.

Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.  How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.

Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.  You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".  Is that because he's hiding his real feelings?

Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Balls.
The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.
Technology can however.

Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?
Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.

I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.
So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.
Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.

It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.


On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.

The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.

 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of some on this forum scares me.

 

It has been much warmer not so long ago.

 

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:

 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.

 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and was told that they are only 50% fossilized.

John. The rest is WOOD! 

John. How old aren't they?

 

Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land .  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.

 

There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.

 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the late 70's. 

 

It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.

 

Jeff

 

P.S.

 

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.

 


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--0-289923317-1177415184=:22941-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 14:09:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OL98lO027093; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:09:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OL96eC027076; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:09:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:09:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=A6vBBNgeDBhgTeY7gDUch+N5CUjJX4J79IMuNMq5+e5LHfAeQay14Hsu47HGjjl87M2k0JVOXUKAucKmf2tEj9SL3uNNns2jXuR6qAcQJR+Ri3mLnwYh6zy+nhLbNO6yVI+2ujgV8kGVT8TvUjoJGG7hJ2jptpyz5Y3JjhJ+/DQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gwpYdyhBr8e3Vr8hWCptrn9Ny1iCgnMvjCj3sz8SCaaTV3ZbmfcOjJRrKlFBx9Y/yMTlLDgg4ti99/EcTyYhgm+xTHCcSGYigqY9AaGOuV44nT/2gBC1dQM8HjgVMJPzeJY1ZeDZP/G7ht8RTRvAeBCivLcIiOfjQOSkJZGm1sk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:08:59 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74520 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance wrote: > Then I calculate you to be ~2.2 years old, LOL. Maybe mentally. :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide Half way down. In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm. Now it's 380 ppm. This causes drastic changes in climate?!? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 14:19:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OLItZm015455; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:18:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OLIrrp015433; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:18:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:18:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:18:09 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74521 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Half way down. In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm. Now it's 380 ppm. This >causes drastic changes in climate?!? Yes, it does. This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry Blanton quoted here in 2005: "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch. "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous warming pattern." Ed Storms wrote an excellent rebuttal: "An interesting point. This same point can be made about cyanide. An average person weighs about 80,000 gm. It takes about 50 mg of NaCN to kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches on the football field. Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such a small distance. No wonder the average person has no understanding of the real world when this kind of argument is used." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 14:23:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OLNZSI002447; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:23:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OLNYoC002435; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:23:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:23:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=T4uyT9H06eWb7nvRvdouYZ7ahDxKqg7I+gyfxMF+T6n+pheZJJCDBYgi0mx2+Ju0yf4/kEFX/z8FbV3j81WA1cLL4rrfwYBqPuX5rY2/hFkQIC+pdGa8hXXp/wRLK+F86UUadovChihasFcNEAQhAUEFJ9zeZQQvewZdcMYZ6sA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PghR6x6C1mEQ8JbnZASDS/W+8QjB63H8ZvvHiAa/t6zHs1Bndclx+wWzDFkhyj0/1WNSIQ5zl7tpU/MVPg4hta31eRDzRHyswKm3Gvg4KtVPI43BcKq1lWRIfSL6MydwAh4GNVi8g2qiDa6Fzoc69NSPXtfTVx/+7DB2Ee2einQ= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:23:30 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <0kFOJB.A.4l.VVnLGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74522 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry > Blanton quoted here in 2005: I'm just trying to understand the mechanism. The albedo of the earth reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere. How many photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2? I'm working on a calculation; but, the atmospheric density is a gradient and I hate calculus. More later, maybe. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 14:29:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OLSg29009009; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:28:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OLSdgY008954; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:28:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:28:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424172728.037b9dd8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:28:31 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74523 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that >Terry Blanton quoted here in 2005: By the way, I wasn't suggesting that we should hold Terry responsible for Crichton's comments. Not unless Terry is a ghostwriter and Crighton pays him royalties . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 14:37:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OLbPwF016957; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:37:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OLbONe016943; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:37:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:37:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y7reudacApGnnSwnfz5JIwAbDUhW8XqwlZnzZFD9JU/QJhGQLYfPDw4F704lGoQrYT5Bbd3roXmW70PHlHtp3MaRW/Xj/VeDrxL/Gx/JlCwpVh1CT3rOwmftsy3GoyiyGOMbthCjxXcTOWT7eT+5NDgZ6lID+8hEklNeab0EpEI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kHdZkYslqinzh1embNtHJOoBL3uPmsdAq3aYnY7vuOX4clwAXm9H6mnEjR0vXw95MCSNjuwyZtu6NBj3o8AwLg4dRp8d5/I6GDK2k5pBIlMOuudxVowIXJwkdTQ2kPxN2JYtd9WAAQho+81ZL+b+n2fDgehrh5NPlwXHTZ/9yjM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:37:22 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74524 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: no, its increased as a fraction by that much. its increased by 22.5 percent. (measurement of increase is against itself, as a fraction, not the whole) On 4/24/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > Nitrogen 78.084% > Oxygen 20.946% > Argon 0.934% > Carbon dioxide 0.038% > Water vapor 1% > Other 0.002% > > CO2 content has increased 0.008% in my lifetime. > > I must be missing something. > > Terry > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 14:42:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OLgUAc023822; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:42:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OLgT8T023808; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:42:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:42:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Z362Y6AoAKpEDjMzPB9ohNbbrsIJOKa+v91dJRlDZBKe5JWVWgQdr3o5kzOpKkIgMBuCdDDdYSp2BNbF/z5M10azslr0iAV8ui9rstHRCmHpsHR9Q2v0rfCuqInUN7DNGvtuO+GRCnXICNt+URlUGj9fGiWdl45/OBAd4WZXdjI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=myeJdbg9BDinEVu4pmRBDVllEt9HfidYd69YrScio3cw8tU0rzUsh1uAq3tAKs9DSG43ox1BjgB0GEf0nSZMKm/36/wDwziRQ3Fslw3UXtSn2v1u6jWshbXUUmPaXF/h0isRRHVA9nc1vOtFgTaagzti0st3p/hKm4yTewYvk1U= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:42:28 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424172728.037b9dd8@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424172728.037b9dd8@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74525 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > >This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that > >Terry Blanton quoted here in 2005: > > By the way, I wasn't suggesting that we should hold Terry responsible > for Crichton's comments. Not unless Terry is a ghostwriter and > Crighton pays him royalties . . . Crichton has a PhD in medicine. If you haven't read it, you should read his autobiography "Travels". Quite interesting. He abandoned his medical career because: 1) He learned that he could not really "cure" people of their afflictions because they all had a reason for why they were sick; and, 2) He made a killing on "Andromeda Strain" and did not need the money. In comparison, Venus: Composition: ~96.5% Carbon dioxide ~3.5% Nitrogen .015% Sulphur dioxide .007% Argon .002% Water vapor .0017% Carbon monoxide .0012% Helium .0007% Neon trace Carbonyl sulfide trace Hydrogen chloride trace Hydrogen fluoride I don't think we will be melting lead any time soon on Earth. ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 14:48:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OLmar4029589; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:48:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OLmZOx029566; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:48:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:48:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=FTrYTlDarSqk54VysNAJwPJbtkCyEeMawCRwqowBHldH30P7XBsoJOEefkUOEJMHfc6s8YvlHy6oBazNjuLGENwNQt9z5HnwyVwdP14OHiYsZhzGrLel+/05JY13NBxjEF42qiPIzSCmhoKT2CmDWAZVKlpGvwBo2G90kCT1DtQ=; X-YMail-OSG: NbnrvJcVM1nBFKu9GCQt9IYlPp27X8JCF2BdwftUKAm_O6focyk2wmgsAnZZ.0f4XsrVD.ypzA-- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:48:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <93511.97796.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74526 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry wrote: > I'm just trying to understand the mechanism. The albedo of the earth reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere. How many photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2? Is that the main mechanism? For some reason I thought that CO2 acted by absorbing IR from a warm earth, which otherwise would be radiated into space. I guess both mechanisms are in play. Anyway, even if he AlGore critics are correct that some, or much, or even most, of the present global heating situation is caused by increased solar activity instead of human - that should not imply that we should not try to do everything possible to ameliorate and reverse the situation, just because it is arguably partly "natural". Can we all agree on that? If a large "natural" asteroid is headed our way, shouldn't we try to intercept and nuke it, even if arguably it is "nature's way" of allowing new kinds of dominant species to emerge ....? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 14:54:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OLruQd025687; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:53:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OLrtEi025664; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:53:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:53:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175339.00d4e100@theworld.com> X-Sender: mica@theworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:53:39 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74527 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:23 PM 4/24/2007 -0400, you wrote: >On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry >>Blanton quoted here in 2005: > >I'm just trying to understand the mechanism. The albedo of the earth >reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere. How many >photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2? > >I'm working on a calculation; but, the atmospheric density is a >gradient and I hate calculus. > >More later, maybe. :-) > >Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 15:02:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OM28ZE001646; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:02:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OM27Df001628; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:02:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:02:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> X-Sender: mica@theworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:00:23 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases Cc: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74528 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:23 PM 4/24/2007 -0400, Terry wrote: >On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry >>Blanton quoted here in 2005: > >I'm just trying to understand the mechanism. The albedo of the earth >reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere. How many >photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2? > >I'm working on a calculation; but, the atmospheric density is a >gradient and I hate calculus. Perhaps this will help deconvolving this issue; with the first useful for your impending integral calculus calculations. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- IR DATA:

TIME LINE GW DATA:

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 15:22:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OMLiH6010299; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:21:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OMLgWd010272; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:21:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:21:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:22:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74529 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The best explanation of global warming is in the movie _The Arrival_. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 15:23:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OMN0Dn009759; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:23:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OMMwZb009737; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:22:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:22:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Vq+UFHp1N/xq7QQ2vRfOqduiXSggH7SBflK7jCVEzHozk1TMoZAoWYbctfdLFCv8H/M2AiqXkMu3BxOGUb1qNI+bFD6u+fmUgtG1E11jSLDq0vpWzzuXJxwW34ucSsL6+DXlyl61xIrVS6H83q+G2lw5XEvmLu49TbihWR6qPoA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=W3OWmIW/Y9DX4h0EU8Joppbp0LD0w26ZWBTZgZqqV1R4Ry5ZxobD/Sa/wT9DZar84Shj6e7czVKh586Rb7JbbBBfzWNYKmlSGzG/zVA19806wAJUvPrh1jLEcxACIUH0SAWgM5imy5mXGLR+ocK2YoKBeCTreuvF0l0KDabT85w= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:22:55 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74530 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks, Dr. Swartz. Interesting periodicity to the data. Terry On 4/24/07, Dr. Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 05:23 PM 4/24/2007 -0400, Terry wrote: > >On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > >>This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry > >>Blanton quoted here in 2005: > > > >I'm just trying to understand the mechanism. The albedo of the earth > >reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere. How many > >photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2? > > > >I'm working on a calculation; but, the atmospheric density is a > >gradient and I hate calculus. > > > > Perhaps this will help deconvolving this issue; > with the first useful for your impending integral calculus calculations. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IR DATA: > >

> > > > TIME LINE GW DATA: > >

> >

> >

> > src=http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2006/fireandice/images/nty-timeline.gif>

> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 15:44:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OMiGvZ023438; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:44:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OMiD7B023415; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:44:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:44:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=d1YuPIz1esLfGhfPriI0nUOdNK8c/lGTcw+mGlFVnOWbNi0z49DxiKiccgBT/U8asoQ89yo55Wepqu6ERMk/D5ADKmOIw6mTaQlOGUO3xyC/3KlDzxLWs5xev6GTLzhHF5b+Me12DtPK5ox5/ea4beAUHz9k4PhdTNjGN4YhC7Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=RUL9aik9SAfa9lUdEVYQAVf69Q/xptSHLNkb0eyS+x3t1aLcs0kWbdCRzvuV3h/JXzGGQYUVsfrZg50O3Ay70lzlFCO9BQGGnKBQLmsbOWh0sScQu0e9Ix6fzF74aDxfNgTBdfvlsqZL4wwIA4SBoCz3vsBPnaoacJvJhZmE1kI= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:44:11 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_127958_29361564.1177454651903" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74532 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Tunnel Challenge ..headlights Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_127958_29361564.1177454651903 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., If you get up in the morning and have made a great discovery.....eg, B. Josephson ..... and it works!!! THEN later you find you have different beliefs..... does this mean th= e earlier work is "no good"??? The challenge to vo is to illustrate good work..... from all areas..... NOT..."this is bad".... but THIS IS GOOD... such as the VORTO ELECTRO GO MO BILE. from http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2007/straight_2007-04-05.cfm "Sometimes a Nobel is given to a guy who=B9s a flake but probably deserves = it anyhow. One case in point is Cambridge University professor Brian Josephson= , who was awarded a Nobel Prize in physics in 1973 for predicting how electrons could tunnel through an insulating barrier. Later in life, Josephson became a believer in the paranormal and a fan of such chimeras as cold fusion and homeopathy; he directed the Mind-Matter Unification Project= , which among other things tried to use physics to explain telepathy." ------=_Part_127958_29361564.1177454651903 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

 
     Dear Vo.,
 
       If you get up in the morning and = have made a great discovery.....eg,
 
    B. Josephson ..... and it works!!!
 
      THEN later you find you have different = beliefs..... does this mean the earlier work is "no good"???
 
         The challenge to vo i= s to illustrate good work..... from all areas.....
NOT..."this is bad".... but THIS IS GOOD...
 
 such as the  VORTO ELECTRO GO MO BILE.
 

from
http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2007/straight_2007-04-05= .cfm

"Sometimes a Nobel is given to a guy who=B9s a flake but p= robably deserves it
anyhow. One case in point is Cambridge University pr= ofessor Brian Josephson,
who was awarded a Nobel Prize in physics in 197= 3 for predicting how
electrons could tunnel through an insulating barrier. Later in life,Josephson became a believer in the paranormal and a fan of such chimeras a= s
cold fusion and homeopathy; he directed the Mind-Matter Unification Pr= oject,
which among other things tried to use physics to explain telepathy.&quo= t;

 
------=_Part_127958_29361564.1177454651903-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 15:48:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OMbfg0020354; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:37:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OMbYmP020306; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:37:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:37:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=RB8hYZ9cifGlTiwhojWpYXULM63+XYtGGjlyNoJHOu5pTpWJGedKv9+JGMsJXRZDw+XtADNO5bTAqjut/pmsXrgW99LnwkNVeSbVwrv/b05OvZxC/MvUy5eDHwfPpqiHziDMYImgS9C6hJfvlUK07c6Mmlq2BQ9WdVz2Gk04cc0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hcqNk8EKworPj9H+VDFYtbAe7TLEeA7x25iXZbrBmdNuskb2JcR+4QQ1ykTTs70GhhLUazCzgTGELoDujh/1fLuS2rm2FmnKNKZcinqNciInWpYzTXaB3yE4rujGo55/U87mek3Jby2GygOjJOTXUzYquEmoXLUN82W1C9STrXU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:37:19 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: <93511.97796.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <93511.97796.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74531 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Huh? Heat are photons, too, right. I mean we aren't bumping molecules together to get heat off the earth, are we? I recently had a discussion on whether chloroflorocarbons are greenhouse gases. They actually are. If you deplete the ozone layer, you allow more UV in. Since the earth absorbs some of those photons and reradiates them as IR, then it is so. We only have two sources of heat, Sol and our radioactive core. I have not included the core in my calculations. I think it's hopeless for me to try this endeavor. Terry On 4/24/07, Jones Beene wrote: > --- Terry wrote: > > > I'm just trying to understand the mechanism. The > albedo of the earth reflects multispectrum light back > into the atmosphere. How many photons are > re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2? > > Is that the main mechanism? For some reason I thought > that CO2 acted by absorbing IR from a warm earth, > which otherwise would be radiated into space. I guess > both mechanisms are in play. > > Anyway, even if he AlGore critics are correct that > some, or much, or even most, of the present global > heating situation is caused by increased solar > activity instead of human - that should not imply that > we should not try to do everything possible to > ameliorate and reverse the situation, just because it > is arguably partly "natural". > > Can we all agree on that? > > If a large "natural" asteroid is headed our way, > shouldn't we try to intercept and nuke it, even if > arguably it is "nature's way" of allowing new kinds of > dominant species to emerge ....? > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 15:49:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OMnOql031432; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:49:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OMnLIg031406; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:49:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:49:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iTnVjtXXOUz5IVFk95rCZmT0+HJUUNTle7Hwcdr/f7LrbOKYM3o/vEKtGoriLGRqcAv+7OOTbgJlH94jDb35R8Uq5G2DSOYvW8xzRlTlSE2B1VCAaDlH6P0E4WV+0GF4SSlVIQEqrrTaULCDrjX2oD8NWIM+QwX7sxyRO2WE/Fw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ii7d1uI11C2IA8+Evcbxy07POFAPY+DKo1rlhAeWrMPIg8s5P/0oRrMPoCk7FGS3RJRZOduExVH7vUA0nNuDdfdzg76RYX+YBr+cpPwoFkElSBqLGg4UiV7VGdlAVdS1qxMZoA7v4HwXcuLW8C6reNO3o+AhClThY+6tmmfx0LA= Message-ID: <462E8961.8090907@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:49:05 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74533 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance wrote: > >> Then I calculate you to be ~2.2 years old, LOL. > > Maybe mentally. :-) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide > > Half way down. In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm. Now it's 380 ppm. This > causes drastic changes in climate?!? Wow Terry! 1960 was well in the industrial age. Just look at the graph brother --> http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg The scientists aren't trying to pull your leg. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 15:58:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3OMwf2C029132; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:58:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3OMwcra029100; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:58:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:58:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:58:31 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.1.98] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:58:30 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74534 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Dr. Mitchell Swartz's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:00:23 = -0400: Hi, [snip] >

Note that each of the highs presaged an ice age (if I'm not mistaken), = and we appear to be on the most recent high. > > Note that if the current CO2 concentration were to be plotted on this = graph, if we be off the top of the graph. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 16:00:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3ON0Aum030128; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:00:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3ON07gQ030100; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:00:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:00:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=idFHTBKqgOVVmZYiCKPyIMWlJsTCjidvOQcVRi0KjW1x8xKMI+44fmF1GN8pt8NRIxSDo/WVXiuItbDEx+6fSqEMuHdTorcG/wgcpEuaKGCxys7QaeK+XyXNPnXwIb5MaTpyFQxsE7CnFPxuXMqggnQjOpEqjBg6HjXOChj7S1Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Y56FGLHQasvFqgNWYWsFe9iDJ4G6WGqTJR1ULgu+ce/oWaeIOatFGiInC6qx6eAR6DyBgj7G6ndisLqsJLzmM/ljvMNU+4N+9Uu7VwnLyMxze9H7T4qtwilsPXbrY+1wj1n4LcICgqN15x3pYebBPLrzZJAhFqlZpHrRiP+oI5o= Message-ID: <462E8BEA.1090203@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:59:54 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424172728.037b9dd8@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74535 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: >> I wrote: >> >> >This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that >> >Terry Blanton quoted here in 2005: >> >> By the way, I wasn't suggesting that we should hold Terry responsible >> for Crichton's comments. Not unless Terry is a ghostwriter and >> Crighton pays him royalties . . . > > Crichton has a PhD in medicine. If you haven't read it, you should > read his autobiography "Travels". Quite interesting. He abandoned > his medical career because: > > 1) He learned that he could not really "cure" people of their > afflictions because they all had a reason for why they were sick; and, > > 2) He made a killing on "Andromeda Strain" and did not need the money. > > In comparison, Venus: > > Composition: ~96.5% Carbon dioxide > ~3.5% Nitrogen > .015% Sulphur dioxide > .007% Argon > .002% Water vapor > .0017% Carbon monoxide > .0012% Helium > .0007% Neon > trace Carbonyl sulfide > trace Hydrogen chloride > trace Hydrogen fluoride > > I don't think we will be melting lead any time soon on Earth. ;-) Earth is not Venus. Climatological Earth records show that whenever the level of CO2 rose above 300ppm an ice age inevitably follows. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 16:17:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3ONHHjk010673; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:17:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3ONHGXc010651; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:17:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:17:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=C5yQIwc3cINyYf6jNu3ZqyPIVOcdONRnoMDIIzRRys5+8HxdUfnnSoXZKiYV9wgiaFLypCLjoD/uSd4hhl+B1eQSMpQgWGyLeqL/91Bs30npiI9Sc7VMK8OCO8Xy7CTim0w00g58gZe9CMPRl3kTsg+XGuGO3u/wg5N511C1GjM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JJtSGuhRDirPTEyb/3GhR6001EZYf4+ddeVzacYqmDEnHMfqPz/31tX9TIk5Y0tbe365/TPeocZVYXFDY0jG3cl1iCeb7aKi/8lUGkkJmdugXCr5wLx8/dShsjWW7jFjE+xAmX75RaK+eaiRhrIUE5Wgh50hBa3MkzEPH5DRNf4= Message-ID: <462E8FF2.2060605@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:17:06 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74536 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think it's important we pay attention to what the climate scientists are saying, which is how much CO2 has suddenly increased from the pre-industrial level to now. CO2 was 278 ppm just prior to the industrial revolution and it was 379 ppm in 2005. That's a 36% increase. Furthermore, CO2 is increasing at an exponential rate. Scientists know every ice age occurred when the CO2 levels went over 300 ppm. Notice the CO2 cycles in the following chart. Notice the CO2 levels suddenly explode at the dawn of the industrial age --> http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg What's just as interesting are the recent computer simulations from NASA's supercomputers that appear to agree. Regards, Paul Lowrance leaking pen wrote: > no, its increased as a fraction by that much. > > its increased by 22.5 percent. (measurement of increase is against > itself, as a fraction, not the whole) > > On 4/24/07, Terry Blanton wrote: >> Nitrogen 78.084% >> Oxygen 20.946% >> Argon 0.934% >> Carbon dioxide 0.038% >> Water vapor 1% >> Other 0.002% >> >> CO2 content has increased 0.008% in my lifetime. >> >> I must be missing something. >> >> Terry >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 16:23:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3ONNhuH008759; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:23:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3ONNes9008729; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:23:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:23:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rQulmSU1063fgHMObKl54UcgYELt2vx5qByGP5dW64i4YLZe+BXTgimFnP6FMg0rmxWTAQYNQHeJDQY+3ZO5d+8YjCb2JBFr0Rp+F9dPvdzUUjZvEQBnWagKyGMvIC1xBIWYASbVTpeP6xgUXIZRBI50GO4NY7egFL7aCvRA3xM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tgxmUDefGZ7S14YpJ6F2ajZp2SCghUGTosz4wjxac+++C3pfIjgOyooQ1E764w8HVlxnM2uKH0k3wuEWNr0RrDx0eP4Sic7OgKPQGhSbyKfEFRIK6xJINnehCQ47VCVwSoeRg/AeaABO9KK7tOW338Mp8Ynbf6nzW++E9eisDc0= Message-ID: <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:23:28 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74537 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Dr. Mitchell Swartz's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:00:23 -0400: > Hi, > [snip] >>

> > Note that each of the highs presaged an ice age (if I'm not mistaken), and we > appear to be on the most recent high. We just had a ice age 10,000 years ago, but it seems humanity will cause another another, soon. 10,000 years ago is recent in terms of ice age cycles. >>

> > Note that if the current CO2 concentration were to be plotted on this graph, if > we be off the top of the graph. CO2 charts spanning hundreds of thousands of years show the CO2 levels go in cycles. Then all of a sudden CO2 levels explode ~5 times beyond any known CO2 levels between now and the dawn of the industrial age. That and a lot more are the reasons over 99% of such scientists (over 2000) now believe humanity is the cause of Global Warming. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 16:36:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3ONafg1019418; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3ONadv7019397; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Sq8ayocTRxdh6bv1eeIAtQ+6pC7e0w8JR+d0xpRrTO4AEzNUgt8NbCLPZ8jhRNkdj5UAGx2Yh/keyWQG2IJR7Q/lg4Yso1Uhs6Fd+4q1WaApSgzFs42dcOOnCjgSscBE/oiiJSfrzYJ6D53i/pKcRemin2K0h072PZN79EMaTlE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Fw/LOfVzxXEh2Zs5eGvJMEO2wDMnhOFqxm8qH36DIbWSX3e/nrl7VLijj1BCtpnu2phKmr72WBCo4m5vudxS7fMnsN/PUFzjvkkJrC/McO0m3uZHyBAvnx7/YYvMC6Q2pFUiBt6rhStZkDUk38ekIc9ItGDy+XYJgtdryMjPFk0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:37 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: <24fNv.A.7uE.HSpLGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74538 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: now, the mechanism is likely a global warming, causing ice cap melting and a change in albedo, causeing cooling, leading to ice age, thats the generally accepted mechanism. Its a form of control and cycle. Will the co2 going beyond what it gets too normally in that cycle change things? and how much? On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Dr. Mitchell Swartz's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:00:23 -0400: > > Hi, > > [snip] > >>

> > > > Note that each of the highs presaged an ice age (if I'm not mistaken), and we > > appear to be on the most recent high. > > > We just had a ice age 10,000 years ago, but it seems humanity will cause another > another, soon. 10,000 years ago is recent in terms of ice age cycles. > > > > >>

> > > > Note that if the current CO2 concentration were to be plotted on this graph, if > > we be off the top of the graph. > > > CO2 charts spanning hundreds of thousands of years show the CO2 levels go in > cycles. Then all of a sudden CO2 levels explode ~5 times beyond any known CO2 > levels between now and the dawn of the industrial age. That and a lot more are > the reasons over 99% of such scientists (over 2000) now believe humanity is the > cause of Global Warming. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 17:30:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3P0UUrh013294; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:30:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3P0USWG013263; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:30:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:30:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01f201c786d0$efa86aa0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <601652.52472.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:30:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74539 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Sinking atmospheric CO2 in all senses of the term (was Re:Simply sublime? Orthocarbonic acid) Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jones Beene" jonesb9@pacbell.net Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:06 PM > Wiki mentions Deep Ocean storage of CO2.=20 ... > CO2 can be frozen easily in cold climates to dry > ice - which in half again denser than water, and will > then be able to sink, to any level, in the ocean (if > insulated) You could call this "marine snow" Jones ;-) It seems to me that boosting the "real" marine snow production to return = the excess atmospheric carbon to its original deep ocean layers of = organic sediments would be an even better idea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_snow "In the deep ocean, marine snow is a continuous shower of mostly organic = detritus falling from the upper layers of the water column. Its origin = lies in activities within the productive photic zone." Which brings us back to iron fertilization, which would provoke = microalgae blooms, which would increase marine animal life if we can = manage an ingenious animal/vegetal synergy, which would increase marine = snow. Whale s***? Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 20:50:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3P3o2Rj024688; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:50:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3P3lqda023687; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:47:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:47:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c786ec$7ac6a0f0$48c4163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:47:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <4pAce.A.8xF.o9sLGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE Status: O X-Status: To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular.... Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign. Divide by. (you get the point I suppose) Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you do not read the entire post. Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and help the "little guy" out in the process. Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is supposed to be about science, not theology. A couple personal points: To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.? To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I for one am glad you are still on the list. To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe, with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously, with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House": OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part! BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it! BOONE: Lets do it. BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!! --Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 21:00:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3P40k1H031150; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:00:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3P40iZO031134; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:00:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:00:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JxHgCUdydLh4wba28+8cMUEsbhhAh73K2mdjU98vgPvULFoAnNe/iW8rffSb9q9plN4egaTJI0QbZIOvCUJnAHimCvnRckgmlVet3tLeXDznqvevd4ck2B5QlRZ3v3GBsHF6dvt4EZKHSUDky/ccZ+YwIkbqvQ9ziuYmd4w/jHw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dWxc2FhEOHW0mmmwNudpu9f6m8CkEvoX+1FEFkZt8b0UuNLYKG6rWsMMmMgVLUOqAGZl0TCNYcS80U+TmS4CDiacFGd+1kR+z4hZtDT3MbzqOuo6dZAzHTsIk0vYT/tT9fptq8/vYN088LUfoiV2aUt8+xrbJGt+eOvwo+IsTVI= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:00:43 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE In-Reply-To: <002101c786ec$7ac6a0f0$48c4163f@DFBGQZ91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <002101c786ec$7ac6a0f0$48c4163f@DFBGQZ91> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74541 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I couldnt be bothered to read youre whole post Kyle, becuase, frankly, the whole thing disgusts me. :D just kidding. and as a working class type person, I A. could care less about al gore and his carbon credits, and B. could care less about the working class as a whole having job and unemployment issues, based on what may be coming with global warming, you know? It's like, sorry sir, we aren't going to treat your cancer, it might make your cough worse. On 4/24/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular.... > > Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole > damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time > to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or > because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage > or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign. > Divide by. (you get the point I suppose) > > Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of > the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is > all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you > do not read the entire post. > > Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by > technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some > are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning > to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens > to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon > credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on > scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand > everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their > lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots > look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left > driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real > world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and > help the "little guy" out in the process. > > Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is > supposed to be about science, not theology. > > A couple personal points: > > To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with > you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and > civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we > agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end > of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world > solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.? > > To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I > for one am glad you are still on the list. > > To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We > here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe, > with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work > together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously, > with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House": > > OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation > absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's > part! > BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it! > BOONE: Lets do it. > BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!! > > > --Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation" > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 24 22:47:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3P5ljm7022134; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:47:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3P5lilZ022115; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:47:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:47:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 01:47:49 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74542 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Consider the free trade agreements of the last few decades. In their absence would CO2 emissions be greater or lower than they are now? If lower, then the issue of global warming may favour the working class in the US. For example if a manufacturing company is able to use electricity not generated from coal or oil it could be given special tax breaks to keep operating in the US. Is this: a) a slightly silly idea b) a silly idea or c) an extremely silly idea? Harry On 24/4/2007 11:00 PM, leaking pen wrote: > I couldnt be bothered to read youre whole post Kyle, becuase, frankly, > the whole thing disgusts me. > > :D > just kidding. > > and as a working class type person, I A. could care less about al gore > and his carbon credits, and B. could care less about the working class > as a whole having job and unemployment issues, based on what may be > coming with global warming, you know? It's like, sorry sir, we aren't > going to treat your cancer, it might make your cough worse. > > On 4/24/07, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >> To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular.... >> >> Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole >> damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time >> to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or >> because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage >> or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign. >> Divide by. (you get the point I suppose) >> >> Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of >> the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is >> all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you >> do not read the entire post. >> >> Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by >> technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some >> are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning >> to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens >> to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon >> credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on >> scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand >> everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their >> lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots >> look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left >> driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real >> world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and >> help the "little guy" out in the process. >> >> Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is >> supposed to be about science, not theology. >> >> A couple personal points: >> >> To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with >> you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and >> civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we >> agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end >> of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world >> solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.? >> >> To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I >> for one am glad you are still on the list. >> >> To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We >> here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe, >> with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work >> together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously, >> with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House": >> >> OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation >> absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's >> part! >> BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it! >> BOONE: Lets do it. >> BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!! >> >> >> --Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation" >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 00:22:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3P7MY6Z014268; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:22:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3P7MW6R014247; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:22:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:22:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <022701c7870a$80544ea0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:22:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74543 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Possibly Earthlike planet only 20 l.y. away! Status: O X-Status: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/science/space/25planet.html?_r=3D1&ref=3D= science&oref=3Dslogin New Planet Could Be Earthlike, Scientists Say=20 By DENNIS OVERBYE Published: April 25, 2007 The most enticing property yet found outside our solar system is about = 20 light-years away in the constellation Libra, a team of European = astronomers said yesterday.=20 The astronomers have discovered a planet five times as massive as the = Earth orbiting a dim red star known as Gliese 581. It is the smallest of the 200 or so planets that are known to exist = outside of our solar system, the extrasolar or exo-planets. It orbits = its home star within the so-called habitable zone where surface water, = the staff of life, could exist if other conditions are right, said = Stephane Udry of the Geneva Observatory. "We are at the right place for that," said Dr. Udry, the lead author of = a paper describing the discovery that has been submitted to the journal = Astronomy & Astrophysics. But he and other astronomers cautioned that it was far too soon to = conclude that liquid water was there without more observations. Sara = Seager, a planet expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, = said, "For example, if the planet had an atmosphere more massive than = Venus's, then the surface would likely be too hot for liquid water." Nevertheless, the discovery in the Gliese 581 system, where a = Neptune-size planet was discovered two years ago and another planet of = eight Earth masses is now suspected, catapults that system to the top of = the list for future generations of space missions. "On the treasure map of the universe, one would be tempted to mark this = planet with an X," said Xavier Delfosse, a member of the team from = Grenoble University in France, according to a news release from the = European Southern Observatory, a multinational collaboration based in = Garching, Germany.=20 Dimitar Sasselov of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, who = studies the structure and formation of planets, said: "It's 20 = light-years. We can go there." The new planet was discovered by the wobble it causes in its home star's = motion as it orbits, using the method by which most of the known = exo-planets have been discovered. Dr. Udry's team used an advanced = spectrograph on a 141-inch-diameter telescope at the European = observatory in La Silla, Chile. The planet, Gliese 581c, circles the star every 13 days at a distance of = about seven million miles. According to models of planet formation = developed by Dr. Sasselov and his colleagues, such a planet should be = about half again as large as the Earth and composed of rock and water, = what the astronomers now call a "super Earth." The most exciting part of the find, Dr. Sasselov said, is that it = "basically tells you these kinds of planets are very common." Because = they could stay geologically active for billions of years, he said he = suspected that such planets could be even more congenial for life than = Earth. Although the new planet is much closer to its star than Earth is = to the Sun, the red dwarf Gliese 581 is only about a hundredth as = luminous as the Sun. So seven million miles is a comfortable huddling = distance. How hot the planet gets, Dr. Udry said, depends on how much light the = planet reflects, its albedo. Using the Earth and Venus as two extreme = examples, he estimated that temperatures on the surface of the planet = should be in the range of 0 degrees to 40 degrees centigrade. "It's just right in the good range," Dr. Udry said. "Of course, we don't = know anything about its albedo." One problem is that the wobble technique only gives masses of planets. = To measure their actual size and thus find their densities, astronomers = have to catch the planets in the act of passing in front of or behind = their stars. Such transits can also reveal if the planets have = atmospheres and what they are made of.=20 Dr. Udry said he and Dr. Sasselov would be observing the Gliese system = with a Canadian space telescope named MOST to see if there are any dips = in starlight caused by the new planet. Failing that, they said, the best = chance for more information about the system lies with the Terrestrial = Planet Finder, a NASA mission, and the Darwin missions of the European = Space Agency, which are designed to study Earthlike planets, but have = been delayed by political, technical and financial difficulties. "We are starting to count the first targets," Dr. Udry said. -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 00:35:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3P7ZF7q019150; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:35:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3P7ZEPI019137; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:35:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:35:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=FSFIkaLbKxMJQbApsI+Dx1tF2XMlN3PkE3l1jkhhrLgLtir6/InSJxuZmS1GP/r94/6JVfVYtutpNBpgUJEUSZrzYz+MUZ/qIK4TjiJDmI1igI0rCS6DL8we4+YKlnPBcW9nlM6y69YpxTu2oMWekUDBUwOG3GNp3lSgJYrim1o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=d+6I8Qdhjos/MeYS8G3Hg8zgxiGewE6+d1ZZOEPZtXiv/8nBAmAroJ7rESsm0tdLkIUSCcY6OHLYAX9yHl1j+NI4h3vBzQabYw2ZeAx4gCjXD5wL+EbJV4iD5QRTvbQ3mKceo6HCc2EDkwDC7Y03xd2yeYEfV94YpZDpCuwxWoI= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:35:12 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_130959_24635425.1177486512906" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74544 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Oh!!!??? Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_130959_24635425.1177486512906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., I must speak up at my father, a language teacher born in 1899 would have prompted me: [1] there is are no ""quote and end quote"" one may open and close a quote but not """""end"""" a quote... [2] She or he SAID... not SAYS..... OK? [3] From JHS: May you "all you all" PLEASE BBGB PLEASE try.... even just TRY to think about science... as opposed to she said she said he said they said... sais says said.....??? PLESE?? [4] Can anyone [oh come just one on one of you all you all on you lurkers] EVEN Try some kind of thinking real world science: (A) Thanks to John Steck ------=_Part_130959_24635425.1177486512906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Dear Vo.,
 
   I must speak up at my father, a language teacher born in 1899 would have prompted me:
 
     [1]  there is are no ""quote and end quote""  one may open and close a quote
          but not """""end"""" a quote...
 
  [2]  She or he SAID... not SAYS.....
 
        OK?
 
      [3]  From JHS:
 
       May you  "all you all" PLEASE BBGB  PLEASE try.... even just TRY
to think about science... as opposed to she said she said he said they said... sais says said.....???  PLESE??
 
      [4]  Can anyone  [oh come just one on one of you all you all on you lurkers]
 
   EVEN Try some kind of thinking real world science:
 
 
   (A)  Thanks to John Steck
 
------=_Part_130959_24635425.1177486512906-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 00:36:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3P7aDE2019697; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:36:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3P7aBme019676; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:36:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:36:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=iMG9ZdRGyXxFlMh185yJpytnWVJjr4wV6R4DfpZThShs2JhJ6cZu2OIO+JKSEoekZqeVREllwq4Q5sk1iFgblQnr/CZmh+FzBBrl55xWrKnv1V4Tr11Zt4LlJwk7VCUqV5KPBvcjv7Ad90456fA+cLwZJuK4qgc5kLQxNHvY15U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=d7qhAX9RjzCfWyHQPPOX7OTxvBquDmA2h9eTsKDt4/uoYBlyb92/jIzmvt2oemMmtccPOOEDwhSabEBFOcaHSkglHJKJVoABfxXDxEDxK0+yzf4w7WOoMC4e6gqY+BNBSGN1HMD6I0WujCnzBOZuih/wfmbRmxrCOGYBcWrSb/o= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:36:09 -0400 From: "john herman" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_130963_3552.1177486569116" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74545 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:GENERAL ....vortex Digest V2007 #202 Bill Beatty Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_130963_3552.1177486569116 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Vo., A cut and cut... and some paste, comment: GENERAL In general,as there may be a "comment" it seems as though the "armchair" science community find a difficulty in and of a responce, rejoinder... SO: As a favor.... I ask PLEASE to RSVP this little note .... And rejoin with "not an arm chair guesikation" but some real stuff..... \\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Here is are a critique.... and question '''grouping" //////////////////// On 4/4/07, vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com wrote: > > vortex-digest Digest Volume 2007 : Issue 202 > Q: However on a more practical note ".....eve that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical equipment where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen reservoir. ...."" How about a well known and well understood "vast" body of energy" ??? On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on > > Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group > > ".......knowledgable is a word that should have been clubbed to death years ago when it started crawling about like the late Lon Cheney..." I may be could be could be wrong .......... > ! And if only they *had* honored the truth, > > :::::::::::::: Who is are the ""they"" ........ YOU... the arm chair commenters..... ARE the THEY of re-occuring time after time, and being covered up. stupid thing to do. - Jed Thomas wrote.. > He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as far as I can > tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a researcher at the U > of M is working on it. --------- UH..... the """Theory of everything"" means: This is the guess ..of everything.... SO..... BBGB ................. Does ANYONE wish to share the Anything of Anything ???? M HMMMMMMM ??? Jed wrote.. >Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! JED------>>> I wish you would reveal any work you YOU as a person have done.... Please .... ============================= .. ask any college kid. ===================== I wish any of you WOULD ask a real college kid... about the nature of the text on Vo. As little does a royal lady dream That Rumpelstiltskin is my name!" >Alternatively, you know what they say about flying... It's really >not too dangerous when you're in the air. The only problems are when >you are near the ground.... I do not worry about the danger. I just do not like being crammed into a small, smelly cabin with bad food, air pressure changes, and all these invasive procedures against terrorism. The latest invasive procedure is to look at you naked with an x-ray machine. See: http://www.slate.com/id/2160977/ http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/24/us/24scan.jpg I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look out the window and see something . . . The fast trains in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make trains run on water. What I would really like to experience is a flight on a Zeppelin. - Jed Rhong Dhong wrote: >It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One >suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws some more. > >The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go >through a search . . . Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. Of course a small bomb would kill some people, but it would be no worse than an attack in a shopping mall. We are not going to set up searches at every shopping mall or other crowded place. Even the Israelis do not do that, and they have much more to worry about than Americans. Note that Amtrak trains already limit the number of bags, and they do have a rudimentary search. The French and Japanese trains do not. If anything, concerns about terrorism will increase the appeal of trains. - Jed Jed sez: ... > > I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look > out the window and see something . . . The fast trains > in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way > to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never > take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make > trains run on water. > > What I would really like to experience is a flight > on a Zeppelin. > > - Jed So would I. Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was published in either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design of a heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art technology. I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and rechargeable batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the sides. (Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film technology just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) It looked like a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the concept was that when you cut the power it would simply float back to the ground, or body of water for that matter. Only when the electric props were actively engaged would there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and on to infinity! The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient passenger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one feel as if they were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The Fifth Element" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least not in the current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH. I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified Hindenburg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be how it would negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and other bad weather. Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group: "The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now. This adds to the pressures on the auto industry to end business as usual thinking, and, we hope, start building "good enough" PHEVs. It adds to the momentum to fuel cars from renewable low-carbon sources. This ruling sets the stage for the EPA to approve the waiver necessary for California's first Global Warming Bill (AB1493, 2002) to go into effect. That bill requires automakers to begin reducing GHGs from cars beginning in 2009, with reductions reaching 30% in 2016 . . ." This may turn out to be one of the most important events in the history of environmentalism. Also in California, Gov. Schwarzenegger has turned out to be remarkably friendly toward environmentalism, and also an effective governor. This is a pleasant surprise to me. - Jed I wrote: >Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or >make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. One of the reasons electric trains are safer is because they do not explode as easily as airplanes do. They do not carry volatile fuel. Most aircraft accident victims die from smoke inhalation or fire, after crash landings. Even if the train is derailed, because a modern train car has a very strong structure and the passengers are likely to survive. The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better. In the U.S. there is a significant risk of striking deer and other wildlife at ground level. Not just deer; last year I was driving in a hilly part of eastern Pennsylvania when a large black bear bounded across the road in front of me. Both of us were shook up. - Jed On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think > the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better. True, but vastly more expensive in the US. In Nippon, concrete is much cheaper than dirt. :-) Terry They'll just change emit more CO instead :-) . -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:25 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group: "The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now... Jed Rothwell wrote: > Rhong Dhong wrote: > >> It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One >> suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws >> some more. >> >> The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go >> through a search . . . > > > Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or > make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- ------=_Part_130963_3552.1177486569116 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Dear Vo.,
 
       A  cut and cut... and some paste, comment:
 
        GENERAL
         In general,as there may be a "comment" it seems  as though the 
"armchair" science  community find a difficulty in and of a responce, rejoinder...
 
      SO:  As a favor.... I ask PLEASE to RSVP this little note ....
           And rejoin with "not an arm chair guesikation"  but some real stuff.....
 
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\  Here is are a critique.... and question '''grouping"  ////////////////////
 
 
On 4/4/07, vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com <vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com > wrote:
vortex-digest Digest                            Volume 2007 : Issue 202
 
 
Q:   
However on a more practical note
 
".....eve that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical equipment where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen reservoir.   ....""
 
      How about a well  known and well understood "vast" body of energy" ???
 
 
On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@mindspring.com > wrote:
Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group
 
 
     ".......knowledgable is a word that should have been clubbed to death years ago
when it started crawling about like the  late Lon Cheney..."
 
 I may be could be
could be wrong   ..........
 
 
 
! And if only they *had* honored the truth,
 
    ::::::::::::::  Who is are the ""they""  ........
 
 
        YOU... the arm chair commenters..... ARE the THEY
 
of re-occuring time after time, and being covered up.
stupid thing to do.

- Jed

Thomas wrote..

> He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as  far as I can
> tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a  researcher at the U
> of M is working on it.
 
 
---------
 
       UH..... the """Theory of everything"" means:
 
       This is  the guess ..of everything....
 
 SO.....
 
       BBGB .................  Does ANYONE wish to share the Anything of Anything
               ????   M   HMMMMMMM ???
 
 
 
Jed wrote..

>Engineers are supposed to tell the truth!

 
       JED------>>>      I wish you would reveal any work you
               YOU as a person have done....  Please ....
 
 
=============================
 
.. ask any college kid.
 
=====================
 
  I wish any of you WOULD ask a real college kid... about the nature of the
text on Vo.
    As little does a royal lady dream
    That Rumpelstiltskin is my name!"
>Alternatively, you know what they say about flying...  It's really
>not too dangerous when you're in the air. The only problems are when
>you are near the ground....

I do not worry about the danger. I just do not like being crammed
into a small, smelly cabin with bad food, air pressure changes, and
all these invasive procedures against terrorism. The latest invasive
procedure is to look at you naked with an x-ray machine. See:

http://www.slate.com/id/2160977/
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/24/us/24scan.jpg

I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look out the
window and see something . . . The fast trains in France and Japan
are great. If I could go all the way to Japan (6870) by fast train in
19 hours, I would never take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they
cannot make trains run on water.

What I would really like to experience is a flight on a Zeppelin.

- Jed

Rhong Dhong wrote:

>It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One
>suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws some more.
>
>The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go
>through a search . . .

Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or
make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. Of
course a small bomb would kill some people, but it would be no worse
than an attack in a shopping mall. We are not going to set up
searches at every shopping mall or other crowded place. Even the
Israelis do not do that, and they have much more to worry about than Americans.

Note that Amtrak trains already limit the number of bags, and they do
have a rudimentary search. The French and Japanese trains do not.

If anything, concerns about terrorism will increase the appeal of trains.

- Jed

Jed sez:

...

>
> I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look
> out the window and see something . . . The fast trains
> in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way
> to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never
> take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make
> trains run on water.
>
> What I would really like to experience is a flight
> on a Zeppelin.
>
> - Jed

So would I.

Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was published in either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design of a heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art technology. I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and rechargeable batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the sides. (Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film technology just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) It looked like a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the concept was that when you cut the power it would simply float back to the ground, or body of water for that matter. Only when the electric props were actively engaged would there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and on to infinity!

The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient passenger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one feel as if they were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The Fifth Element" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least not in the current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH.

I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified Hindenburg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be how it would negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and other bad weather.

Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of
pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the
reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group:

"The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting
emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection
Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going
to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now. This adds to the
pressures on the auto industry to end business as usual thinking,
and, we hope, start building "good enough" PHEVs. It adds to the
momentum to fuel cars from renewable low-carbon sources.

This ruling sets the stage for the EPA to approve the waiver
necessary for California's first Global Warming Bill (AB1493, 2002)
to go into effect. That bill requires automakers to begin reducing
GHGs from cars beginning in 2009, with
reductions reaching 30% in 2016 . . ."

This may turn out to be one of the most important events in the
history of environmentalism.

Also in California, Gov. Schwarzenegger has turned out to be
remarkably friendly toward environmentalism, and also an effective
governor. This is a pleasant surprise to me.

- Jed

I wrote:

>Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or
>make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane.

One of the reasons electric trains are safer is because they do not
explode as easily as airplanes do. They do not carry volatile fuel.
Most aircraft accident victims die from smoke inhalation or fire,
after crash landings.

Even if the train is derailed, because a modern train car has a very
strong structure and the passengers are likely to survive.

The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think
the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better. In the U.S.
there is a significant risk of striking deer and other wildlife at
ground level. Not just deer; last year I was driving in a hilly part
of eastern Pennsylvania when a large black bear bounded across the
road in front of me. Both of us were shook up.

- Jed

On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:

> The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think
> the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better.

True, but vastly more expensive in the US.  In Nippon, concrete is
much cheaper than dirt.  :-)

Terry

They'll just change emit more CO instead :-) .

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:25 PM
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion


Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of
pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the
reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group:

"The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting
emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection
Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going
to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now...

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Rhong Dhong wrote:
>
>> It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One
>> suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws
>> some more.
>>
>> The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go
>> through a search . . .
>
>
> Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or
> make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy

On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the
track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

 

------=_Part_130963_3552.1177486569116-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 02:16:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3P9G4DC004876; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:16:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3P9G225004858; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:16:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:16:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <089601c7871a$5a68b720$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]:GENERAL ....vortex Digest V2007 #202 Bill Beatty Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:15:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74546 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "john herman" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:36 AM Subject: [Vo]:GENERAL ....vortex Digest V2007 #202 Bill Beatty > ".....eve that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical = equipment > where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen = reservoir. > ...."" >=20 > How about a well known and well understood "vast" body of = energy" ??? The sun? > Jed wrote.. >=20 >>Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! >=20 >=20 > JED------>>> I wish you would reveal any work you > YOU as a person have done.... Please .... Jed does an enormous work as CF's librarian and most vocal advocate, = plus he is one of the most scientifically literate science writers I = know. ... > Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was = published in > either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design = of a > heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art = technology. > I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and = rechargeable > batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the = sides. > (Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film > technology just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) = It > looked like a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the = concept > was that when you cut the power it would simply float back to the = ground, or > body of water for that matter. Only when the electric props were = actively > engaged would there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and = on to > infinity! >=20 > The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient > passenger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one = feel as > if they were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The = Fifth > Element" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least = not in > the current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH. >=20 > I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified > Hindenburg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be = how it > would negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and = other > bad weather. >=20 > Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above. >=20 > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com So would I! At least those things can stay aloft without emitting GHGs! = I doubt bad weather can be a real problem, or the old times zeps would = necessarily have had problems while crossing the Atlantic, as weather = forecasts were probably much shorter term than crossing times. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 04:15:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PBCmFH015309; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:15:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PB67vT012206; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:06:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:06:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <08c801c78729$b739dce0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> Subject: Global climate calculator (was Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:06:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74547 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed's argument is indeed quite pertinent. Terry, you will find a freely downloadable ready-made climate calculator = here: http://edgcm.columbia.edu/download/ It's a so-called "global climate calculator" i.e. it also takes into = account the oceans (how accurately I don't know), not just the = atmosphere and the radiative balance. The tutorial here explains how to use it to determine the effects of CO2 = variations: http://edgcm.columbia.edu/outreach/exercises/global_warming.html Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases > Terry Blanton wrote: >=20 >>Half way down. In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm. Now it's 380 ppm. This >>causes drastic changes in climate?!? >=20 > Yes, it does. >=20 > This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry=20 > Blanton quoted here in 2005: >=20 > "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football=20 > field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal=20 > line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of=20 > what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of=20 > what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2=20 > inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the=20 > chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon=20 > dioxide? One inch. >=20 > "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do=20 > you know how much it has increased, on our football field?=20 > Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet=20 > you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire=20 > planet into a dangerous warming pattern." >=20 > Ed Storms wrote an excellent rebuttal: >=20 > "An interesting point. This same point can be made about=20 > cyanide. An average person weighs about 80,000 gm. It takes about=20 > 50 mg of NaCN to kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches=20 > on the football field. Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such=20 > a small distance. >=20 > No wonder the average person has no understanding of the real world=20 > when this kind of argument is used." >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 07:40:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PEe1jp016776; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:40:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PEdSoA016452; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:39:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:39:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Jaedkg060nb8NwIzAh/GHtp62aJLAAMctTcAr0L/8lN52gEe5MZu/sg5z1VM13vAN9H6AzvEGdZu8lQWVcGiqdSto8ZHfjBDvGzfG3PlspdzOEoyWkjyalA6iEWTULSv8ubUTz8+20rkpjFBCXdWLCAjNxG2YPAWi8H8apLHii4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PGMu6xSrCmyQUf+RBp4TGW6GwSbYyjTH+SMQTxhzVygrKtMfKvu39KjZnS70dExzldLdFkr9o+x5ZiWv8oYF8HyPtUKy0plNh8FRUb7LU6sRYIzqW/T0YjBymrpK8q9+Y9l0nx2exiqv7benk/VTDqGwBtI6jV73VH8CGpYB1+I= Message-ID: <462F6816.7050803@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:39:18 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE References: <002101c786ec$7ac6a0f0$48c4163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <002101c786ec$7ac6a0f0$48c4163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74548 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular.... > > Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole > damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the > time to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, > or because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary > courage or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. > At sign. Divide by. (you get the point I suppose) > > Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side > of the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that > he is all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people > when you do not read the entire post. Please no offense intended, but your email is blatant Ad hominem and hate. Global Warming is vitally important. If Jeff made huge errors then a person has every write to show Jeff his errors and not have to worry hurting Jeff's feelings. I'm certain Jeff is strong and can take truth, especially when it comes to a vitally important topic as Global Warming. > Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused > by technology the polite and thoughful side, That's your interpretation. > yet the majority (not all, > some are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really > beginning to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn > what happens to the working class people, Kyle, *please* refrain from name-calling and ad hominem remarks. Working class people? Is that all you're concerned about, the financial state of working class people (the almighty $$$) when humanity is generating an upcoming Ice Age that could wipe millions of beautiful and priceless species and perhaps even humanity off the face of this beautiful planet??????? ... Unbelievable! > as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon credits too. I very much admire Al Gore who is trying to educate people on Global Warming in an attempt to help save this planet. > Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss > what is going on scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals > swooping down to brand everything as partisan or political. Please Kyle, lets not get all bent up because present evidence is overwhelming that humanity is the major cause of Global Warming. Yet one more time I'll be more than happy to discuss the facts with you. CO2 levels have cycled through out the hundreds of thousands of years. Take a look at the chart. Then humanity arrives and CO2 levels skyrocket to ~5 times any known CO2 level. What about the recent vast project where scientists entered every known related effect in NASA's supercomputer that shows humanity is the cause of Global Warming. Did you see the computer generated graph? It matches the graph of real data! What about recent Global Warming television documentary programs that state 99% of the science community related to this field with over 2000 scientists now agree Global Warming is caused by humanity. Please brother, lets get past the almighty buck *on just this one* and take responsibility. Next time you go hiking look at God's creatures eye to eye and tell me your don't care enough to take blame. > Next, the neo-cons emerge from their lairs and counterattack with remarks that > make the first group of idiots look right. No science then gets > discussed. I have done nothing but show data and correct blatant errors of those who oppose GW caused by humanity. Sorry, your email is blatant Ad hominem completely lacking any scientific data filled with name-calling and hate. > The working class are still left driving the evil > automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real world, nuts and > bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and help the > "little guy" out in the process. Countless species and lives are at stake here and you attack people because you don't want to hurt the financial well being of the so-called "little guy" ??? We are all trying to help, but first people need educating so they can at least accept the fact that humanity is the cause and what caused such Global Warming! Regards, Paul Lowrance > Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? > This is supposed to be about science, not theology. > > A couple personal points: > > To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree > with you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite > polite and civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of > whether or not we agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in > wanting to see the end of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be > begun to discuss real world solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, > experiments on such, etc.? > > To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my > opinion. I for one am glad you are still on the list. > > To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We > here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe, > with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us > work together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more > humorously, with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House": > > OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this > situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done > on somebody's part! > BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it! > BOONE: Lets do it. > BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!! > > > --Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation" > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 08:06:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PF6fDW004912; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:06:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PF6eXg004896; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:06:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:06:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <08fa01c7874b$569300c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <08c801c78729$b739dce0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:06:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74549 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: Global climate calculator (was Re: Atmospheric Gases) Status: O X-Status: > It's a so-called "global climate calculator" Sorry I meant "global climate model" (GCM): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_climate_model Other article of interest (explains the mechanism of IR absorption by = the CO2 molecules): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:06 PM Subject: Global climate calculator (was Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases) Ed's argument is indeed quite pertinent. Terry, you will find a freely downloadable ready-made climate calculator = here: http://edgcm.columbia.edu/download/ It's a so-called "global climate calculator" i.e. it also takes into = account the oceans (how accurately I don't know), not just the = atmosphere and the radiative balance. The tutorial here explains how to use it to determine the effects of CO2 = variations: http://edgcm.columbia.edu/outreach/exercises/global_warming.html Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases > Terry Blanton wrote: >=20 >>Half way down. In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm. Now it's 380 ppm. This >>causes drastic changes in climate?!? >=20 > Yes, it does. >=20 > This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry=20 > Blanton quoted here in 2005: >=20 > "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football=20 > field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal=20 > line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of=20 > what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of=20 > what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2=20 > inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the=20 > chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon=20 > dioxide? One inch. >=20 > "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do=20 > you know how much it has increased, on our football field?=20 > Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet=20 > you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire=20 > planet into a dangerous warming pattern." >=20 > Ed Storms wrote an excellent rebuttal: >=20 > "An interesting point. This same point can be made about=20 > cyanide. An average person weighs about 80,000 gm. It takes about=20 > 50 mg of NaCN to kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches=20 > on the football field. Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such=20 > a small distance. >=20 > No wonder the average person has no understanding of the real world=20 > when this kind of argument is used." >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 08:28:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PFS4bY015490; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:28:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PFS2C3015445; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:28:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:28:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070425110616.038cb390@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:27:48 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell In-Reply-To: <089601c7871a$5a68b720$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <089601c7871a$5a68b720$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74550 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >I doubt bad weather can be a real problem, or the old times zeps >would necessarily have had problems while crossing the Atlantic, as >weather forecasts were probably much shorter term than crossing times. Old time Zeppelins had tremendous problems with weather. Two U.S. Navy zeps were destroyed by weather (the Shenandoah and the Acron), and heavy rain played a role in the destruction of the R101, although it was mainly bad design. I think I recall one passenger zep was brought down by bad weather in Canada. The zeps could not cross the north Atlantic routes in winter, so they flew from Germany to South America instead. I believe that U.S. Navy blimps during WWII had a better safety and endurance record. They were quite valuable in anti-submarine warfare. The U.S. Navy used blimps until 1961. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 10:14:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PHEKfx012741; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:14:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PHEIu4012722; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:14:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:14:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <091101c7875d$2b1456d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <089601c7871a$5a68b720$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070425110616.038cb390@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:14:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74551 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Jed for correcting me. Such problems, combined to snailish speed = (~100 km/h =3D 60 mph) and other limitations seem to limit the use of = airships to niche applications. Nice wiki article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship Some of the applications are quite interesting though. The "designs = under development" section features an original "airship to orbit" = project based on V shaped blimps, sort of advanced weather balloons = meant to go to the top of the atmosphere and beyond: http://www.jpaerospace.com/ Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 5:27 PM Subject: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >>I doubt bad weather can be a real problem, or the old times zeps=20 >>would necessarily have had problems while crossing the Atlantic, as=20 >>weather forecasts were probably much shorter term than crossing times. >=20 > Old time Zeppelins had tremendous problems with weather. Two U.S.=20 > Navy zeps were destroyed by weather (the Shenandoah and the Acron),=20 > and heavy rain played a role in the destruction of the R101, although=20 > it was mainly bad design. I think I recall one passenger zep was=20 > brought down by bad weather in Canada. The zeps could not cross the=20 > north Atlantic routes in winter, so they flew from Germany to South=20 > America instead. >=20 > I believe that U.S. Navy blimps during WWII had a better safety and=20 > endurance record. They were quite valuable in anti-submarine warfare.=20 > The U.S. Navy used blimps until 1961. >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 10:40:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PHe4P0027731; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:40:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PHZfvb023828; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:35:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:35:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on mail1.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=10.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_SHORT_LENGTH,MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID,lnc_S_UNSUB autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7-deb MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:35:39 -0400 From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_a0f0c7540e58ad02f385afc8b56828f6" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070425174343.4DC79BFAEC@mail1.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74552 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:unsubscribe Status: O X-Status: --=_a0f0c7540e58ad02f385afc8b56828f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Consolidating to Gmail --- Steven Vincent Johnson svj@orionworks.com http://orionworks.com --=_a0f0c7540e58ad02f385afc8b56828f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Consolidating to Gmail
---
Steven Vincent Johnson
svj@orionworks.com
http://orionworks.com --=_a0f0c7540e58ad02f385afc8b56828f6-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 10:49:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PHnHOF012826; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:49:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PHnE8D012807; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:49:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:49:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=DDPCQsBQMPqHZfGYiOhENqjo0zqrPeZUXPszab5VT+pJMEa41ShyZSmD7bt84GQvAiNdYIi2q0xO+oFK7IKH/3RXdLQ7XE6X8R0pPA/R05C9d6mHqA4uI9LZBWGHYBur/2lhBYn4q80SKX2EQldlk2FP6af+RxesgWH3sgn4sOk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=dR6e+UjSThzKiBpKNWDStxpezMI8zGPyL3V8Ve1P+1qvd3Kv0RJvbbCm0yprRQ0bwV++a09Zn3kQLUO3XYjj6LewNBX5rHyGeK5PLPCcCn8Wg9KcT8RLlCQRpQqpkQhjF9yd3JMHegu7V4cNEe1lON30x5u6eoFs73GgheEBsUs= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:49:13 -0500 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74553 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Suggestion to John Herman Status: RO X-Status: SUBJECT: Suggestion to John Herman John, This is just a suggestion, and it's just my own opinion that I'm expressing here, but... If you want to convey your thoughts and opinions I would strongly suggest you make an effort to conform you literary style to a more traditional visual approach. You know... where we use sentences logically grouped in paragraphs. Every time I view one of your posts I haven't got a clue where to start or where to end. I have no idea what you personally wrote versus what other posters have written that you might be responding to. I end up not reading your posts simply because at my age I no longer feel inclined to try to decipher the mysterious and complex thoughts of others if they aren't willing to meet me half way. Your writing stile rivals that of Java code. If you're into experimental writing styles I would strongly recommend you try to find a group list that loves to explore alternative techniques, and then get feedback from them, that is if you can decipher their own unique literary styles. But please, please, PLEASE, try to stick to a more traditional literary approach here. I hope you do not take offense to this suggestion, though I can see how one might. -- Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 11:30:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PIUDxp003061; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:30:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PIUC2f003047; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:30:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:30:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070425142940.038cb390@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:30:04 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather In-Reply-To: <091101c7875d$2b1456d0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <089601c7871a$5a68b720$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070425110616.038cb390@mindspring.com> <091101c7875d$2b1456d0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74554 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Some of the applications are quite interesting though. The "designs >under development" section features an original "airship to orbit" >project based on V shaped blimps, sort of advanced weather balloons >meant to go to the top of the atmosphere and beyond: >http://www.jpaerospace.com/ That's astounding! - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 12:08:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PJ7n3Q025690; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:07:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PJ7lRP025631; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:07:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:07:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UMsDVb4GTkw9S93hCrIA3ARYPf7NMZOKtcYuu5TAxtDtGgJ4potBVJzaqaOGtBNxmLAEpZf7JUan2Pex/3k4TcXW9jqLSXxVihQHIAGO3LsXOXOTFzp6QxwxDdJSalF3NyMezmfT2asInZR0Dbrml8olN6c8TP5Yz0faMt+36bA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FMLxh8OlOvD4egHARvtx5xOqTejIMz7kGhMfXCHBaWEJeLKXHwDr5izPdJnMUc3v/aHdjGBvXASBMhGY8cwxPjP4izdYrrdiAhbA09PMro0jolaa/my0TIYvfMsrfSvyOHIPjxsAkj8UC8b9MLvhjNfGwg3DLH9YRi9GBELszFc= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:07:43 -0500 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070425142940.038cb390@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <089601c7871a$5a68b720$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070425110616.038cb390@mindspring.com> <091101c7875d$2b1456d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070425142940.038cb390@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74555 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Michel Jullian wrote: >> Some of the applications are quite interesting though. >> The "designs under development" section features an >> original "airship to orbit" project based on V shaped >> blimps, sort of advanced weather balloons meant to >> go to the top of the atmosphere and beyond: >> http://www.jpaerospace.com/ > >That's astounding! > >- Jed I second that. Great photos. It would not suprise me in the least that a good chunk of the current research may have originated, at least initially, from DOD spin-off. Triangular "V" shaped UFOs have been one of the most commonly reported objects for decades. But don't quote me on that. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 14:05:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PL5Ewr018835; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:05:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PL5CDD018810; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:05:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:05:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:05:52 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74556 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hmmm http://www.worth1000.com/entries/210500/210623UaDY_w.jpg Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 15:26:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PMQ5VR025032; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:26:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PMQ3ZV025015; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:26:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:26:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:25:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.1.98] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:25:58 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74557 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to leaking pen's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:37 -0700: Hi, [snip] >now, the mechanism is likely a global warming, causing ice cap melting >and a change in albedo, causeing cooling, leading to ice age, thats Since ice is more reflective than water, when the ice melts, the Earth = absorbs more heat, not less. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 15:30:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PMUX7h023001; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:30:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PMUWkY022982; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:30:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:30:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HkvCwj5pEcZiw7UFhDcHYEAZZuT3/VjCgW3WMlVxrHernFyTGIUSs8KwfVQirH0FTJXRHwlBa99y0vlv3e96FMllyLttfvRLWq3pIf6lRdZRgTpj/K78XWwUAwIWuY4eqTDg8wqCHlqzm2xfbiwBcjcNcmKHhV0IG59QjuBOUrc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QBdnEc/AksqfebnScoRUFNnitfEuIjn4YAEyyxoUZLAmCXXEFobAY2ZrFjSO8/AaqiD3SCY2WYvjAAH1zptgaSF+aXbl/qXiBrBQALkSAr9Tt+t+HlIlk6SrzfeelF4er8pLeoFYhBoy85JoSzF9qJsr/p71jweWZPf79Rg+inQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:30:27 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74558 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: except water is still reflective, more reflective than land, and large amounts of land surface become water, yes? On 4/25/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to leaking pen's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:37 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >now, the mechanism is likely a global warming, causing ice cap melting > >and a change in albedo, causeing cooling, leading to ice age, thats > > Since ice is more reflective than water, when the ice melts, the Earth absorbs > more heat, not less. > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > The shrub is a plant. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 16:16:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3PNGmJm008288; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:16:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3PNGk3h008267; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:16:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:16:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=CbgWqAdv8+fii2rxBHvqTn2OsdCSkgqzZGOnY112qktgREWU0ndKSN4pT9tX/0JMjDEwcP5WczFmbJ/lNyrphyyiC73NywPNJlIPewYmAvypsLK3coVoOo6z2jE+Y0yDqNbEzJ5Mdedzidqh1M3GAg7D5NLuv042I6uuVW8DPoA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=D1keZWM+GnkAHh/7yLymcKTrUiwcjkrHX3PfdHgVVoQ31sjTJyEkG4xFo6cjD2Dkzv8nluvA7LWFUOdD9jzRmWj7uWQrS3+r5qBEFXA4iFWWe3/d8DXu1/b77KeSA5Lyn3YTowx5Hke4Y0UiXhidDX1T7LPSZgoHYvEfJnMDecc= Message-ID: <462FE154.6060501@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:16:36 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74559 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to leaking pen's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:37 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] >> now, the mechanism is likely a global warming, causing ice cap melting >> and a change in albedo, causeing cooling, leading to ice age, thats > > Since ice is more reflective than water, when the ice melts, the Earth absorbs > more heat, not less. That's true. A scientist talked about that in "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with Tom Brokaw." This scientist is working at the poles. Furthermore, he said over the years on average significant amount of land that used to covered by ice is now absorbing more radiation that the ice that used to cover such land. These are factors the recent computer simulation software takes into effect. leaking pen wrote: > except water is still reflective, more reflective than land, and large > amounts of land surface become water, yes? If Ice is over land: Ice that melts over land is absorbed in the soil. This results in more radiation absorption the ice. If Ice is in water: Ice that melts in the ocean results in more radiation absorption because water absorbs more radiation than water. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 17:45:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3Q0jLMO014706; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:45:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3Q0jJbP014690; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:45:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:45:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c7879c$256d8190$9886163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <002101c786ec$7ac6a0f0$48c4163f@DFBGQZ91> <462F6816.7050803@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:45:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74561 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lowrance" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE I take it then that you nor anyone else really wants to try to do anything about this. Just let the great masters like Al Gore do it all by trading carbon credits, and we will all be ok....well, as long as we are not the ones who won't be ok. If that makes any sense. I was very wrong in what I posted last night, I admit. After carefully reading your reply, and which parts in particular you decided not to reply to or discuss, I admit I made a mistake in exempting you from the proverbial point of my spear. I will not make the mistake again of giving credit where it is not due. Now, is there anyone left here who really wants to work on alternatives, and by that I mean, stuff that is cheap and cheerful enough for the little guys to be able to use? And yes I am a big supporter of the little guys. If they don't exist, the menial laborers and such, the upperclass would die off in very short order. Mark my words. Turn out the lights, cut off the parts and supplies long enough, and we all become barbarians again. Regards, --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 25 17:05:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3Q05eDr014897; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:05:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3Q05d9s014878; Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:05:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:05:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=UIfBlFN6AU2QsVkL5DCvUH8rjat7cOzpGSWRNkSZIkH3EXwOpIIw1SRBd6HH0CHCwOWkqzgjJNMN7fJCV1oHpFhS3LrR9yJ7eDLhkrKMr6YcrLQ3Jfr5/FONQpcZeEJBZrBx0NkrEIPUN+3dTbcXcuq4ei98tko0HTeJY023o3o=; X-YMail-OSG: UO4JFo0VM1lsQAxWh7YC9c6IZHLSilkbjIk0oW7arrsQSn5IUlGKgw2kj7TVUQ2vSuzyXRS9BjOgN0BDX8jy_YFHPLRNG_3BnozBDOJv._vMlI50A.bmKLfupSyDLz8ErIftllkPrh8TCkc- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.10 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) From: PHILIP WINESTONE Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1646537653-1177545936=:84431" Message-ID: <455523.84431.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74560 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends4 Status: O X-Status: --0-1646537653-1177545936=:84431 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Yes - I've had a few run-ins with people who (a) have never been inside a factory let alone gotten their hands dirty in one, and (b) have no idea what it's like to be an "hourly paid" working dude, most times at the mercy of "trends". Then there's the joy of shift-work... My own take on energy - I'm in the Cold Fusion arena, at least as a support person - is to bring Cold Fusion to the people; the real people, that is, who often have an intuitive wisdom far greater than the overly educated. Bring Cold Fusion to the people in the form of solid, practical applications, and they'll buy into it. Do NOT bring cold fusion to the government or academia, for some kind of approval (or funding), because both will (and have) talk it to death. P. ----- Original Message ---- From: Kyle R. Mcallister To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:47:40 PM Subject: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular.... Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign. Divide by. (you get the point I suppose) Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you do not read the entire post. Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and help the "little guy" out in the process. Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is supposed to be about science, not theology. A couple personal points: To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.? To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I for one am glad you are still on the list. To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe, with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously, with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House": OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part! BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it! BOONE: Lets do it. BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!! --Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation" --0-1646537653-1177545936=:84431 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii
Yes - I've had a few run-ins with people who (a) have never been inside a factory let alone gotten their hands dirty in one, and (b) have no idea what it's like to be an "hourly paid" working dude, most times at the mercy of "trends".  Then there's the joy of shift-work...

My own take on energy - I'm in the Cold Fusion arena, at least as a support person - is to bring Cold Fusion to the people; the real people, that is, who often have an intuitive wisdom far greater than the overly educated.  Bring Cold Fusion to the people in the form of solid, practical applications, and they'll buy into it.  Do NOT bring cold fusion to the government or academia, for some kind of approval (or funding), because both will (and have) talk it to death.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:47:40 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE

To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular....

Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole
damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time
to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or
because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage
or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign.
Divide by. (you get the point I suppose)

Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of
the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is
all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you
do not read the entire post.

Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by
technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some
are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning
to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens
to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon
credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on
scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand
everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their
lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots
look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left
driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real
world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and
help the "little guy" out in the process.

Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is
supposed to be about science, not theology.

A couple personal points:

To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with
you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and
civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we
agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end
of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world
solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.?

To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I
for one am glad you are still on the list.

To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We
here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe,
with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work
together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously,
with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House":

OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation
absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's
part!
BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it!
BOONE: Lets do it.
BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!!
<Mayhem and madness ensues>

--Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation"



--0-1646537653-1177545936=:84431-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 06:03:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QD3Jel003072; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:03:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QD3CeB003022; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:03:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:03:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c78803$3dff7620$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]: American Idol vs.LENR Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:03:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C787D9.549E6C30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <9D_S-C.A.Dv.QMKMGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74562 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C787D9.549E6C30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C787D9.54A793F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C787D9.54A793F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Vorts, Perhaps there is a side to LENR I never saw before...( with all due = respect to Burl Ives).=20 Could it be that "American Idol", the most popular TV program ever has a = message for us all ? What is it about "Idol" that captures the = imagination? Could it be the built end anticipation of the "ending". = Therein lies the clue. Maybe what we are watching in LENR is not so much the lack of = recognition of the progress of the science ..so much as a seeming = inherent fatalism of society's future. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C787D9.54A793F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Vorts,
 
Perhaps there is a side to LENR I never saw before...( with all due = respect=20 to Burl Ives).
 
Could it be that "American Idol", the most popular TV program ever = has a=20 message for us all ? What is it about "Idol" that captures the=20 imagination?  Could it be the built end anticipation of the = "ending".=20 Therein lies the clue.
 
Maybe what we are watching in LENR is not so much the lack of = recognition=20 of the progress of the science ..so much as a seeming inherent fatalism = of=20 society's future.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C787D9.54A793F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C787D9.549E6C30 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000301c78803$3d38f1d0$c905a8c0@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C787D9.549E6C30-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 09:16:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QGG0cA006402; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:16:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QGFsRP006339; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:15:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:15:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426115334.038d1420@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:15:44 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE In-Reply-To: <455523.84431.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <455523.84431.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4ztWAC.A.ziB.4ANMGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74563 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PHILIP WINESTONE wrote: >My own take on energy - I'm in the Cold Fusion arena, at least as a >support person - is to bring Cold Fusion to the people; the real people . . . I wrote something similar in the Introduction to my book, quoting Sir. H. C. Beaver: "on public opinion, and on it alone, finally rests the issue." I said: "The public will not act until we convince it that cold fusion is worth funding." >. . . that is, who often have an intuitive wisdom far greater than >the overly educated . . No one is overly educated. Compared to how people will be in 1000 years, we are all ignorant savages, barely removed from cavemen. Intuition has its uses, but as Clarke's third law has it: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. In 1800, no intuition, however powerful, could have envisioned things such as nuclear power, cold fusion, computers, or mass spectroscopy of distant stars and planets. A few highly educated people might barely have imagined the telegraph, and many more saw the possibility of railroads, but their vision would have owed more to educated logic than intuition. Even today, most people cannot imagine that cold fusion exists. Their problem is not that they lack intuition; what they lack is rigorous, evidenced-based, experimental hard science. They depend too much on imagination, and not enough on textbook science. The two great visionaries of the distant past -- Roger Bacon and Francis Bacon -- both based their ideas on clear thinking and extrapolation, not intuition. >. Bring Cold Fusion to the people in the form of solid, practical >applications, and they'll buy into it. ANYONE would buy into cold fusion if we had solid, practical application! The problem is how to get from where we are now to those practical applications. The only people who have contributed to cold fusion, and the only ones who doing anything to move it along now, are the elite, highly educated mainstream research scientists such as Storms, Miles, Miley, Fleischmann, Oriani, McKubre, Boss, Szpak, Mizuno and so on. > Do NOT bring cold fusion to the government or academia, for some > kind of approval (or funding), because both will (and have) talk it to death. The discovery of cold fusion in the 1980s, and every scrap of progress that has been made in the field since then, has all been done at government and academic institutions (universities and national labs), plus a small number of corporate labs, such as Amoco, Mitsubishi, and the Everready Battery Co. There has no been contribution from members of the general public, and not a bit of political support either, I am sorry to say. Cold fusion cannot be developed at home by ordinary folks any more than a new type of semiconductor chip could be. It calls for expensive, high-tech equipment operated by experts. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 09:28:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QGSFPA018736; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:28:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QGSCwD018700; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:28:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:28:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tnSoaxflscLoZCjKd7r6OKivm0Inq5F0kg8P2h2nhSE4++a2QI9UD9rhueghS4I7GVzZ6B/mbYvbj52/nM4fIpJeLkeEWYTsZeTf9DdZiI0b8f0P2ik33Zvmbx1CB9jePbX2UL9kNvSJ5AN2Gl342mZykHEXZGtLYsb905bZPe4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aCPSmtnv4IwkvJTq/LxttXwpFisFrFfuIyqpgrK8BqLopykDc6gU2MheDFifuLKmzO3gjKK1p5AHMLcx13MO/qMTq2LR3SxhnAcnEwW3NIw2h0q+ZaUTms/ShGUKf08FYWvR/mWl9FrhAMIHzOt2LZrLr/W/l5jfmZMod8Xwwms= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:28:07 -0500 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426115334.038d1420@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <455523.84431.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070426115334.038d1420@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74564 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Jed: ... > Cold fusion cannot be developed at home by ordinary > folks any more than a new type of semiconductor chip > could be. It calls for expensive, high-tech equipment > operated by experts. > > - Jed And yet, the amount of funding that would need to be involved for adequate CF research would by all accounts dwarf the amount of funding that has been sunk into HF research for decades. Such irony. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 11:49:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QImqre028539; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:48:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QImp1t028522; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:48:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:48:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426144227.0376a530@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:48:43 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE In-Reply-To: References: <455523.84431.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070426115334.038d1420@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74565 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >And yet, the amount of funding that would need to be involved for >adequate CF research would by all accounts dwarf the amount of funding >that has been sunk into HF research for decades. I think you mean "be dwarfed by." They have spent billions on hot fusion, and I think cold fusion can be developed -- or not -- with a few hundred million. "Or not" means that with that much money we might determine cold fusion cannot easily be developed. It may be like hot fusion in that regard, which probably cannot be made practical with any amount of money, given our present state of knowledge. The amount of funding needed is trivial by the standards of the U.S. economy. We spend $6 billion per year on cosmetics, for goodness sake. Once cold fusion is made practical, we would then have to spend hundreds of billions of dollars engineering new products and on new factory production lines. As I pointed out in the book, however, we have to make new factory production lines anyway, and the investment in cold fusion would pay back very quickly. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 11:51:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QIpefr030252; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:51:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QIpbF9030218; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:51:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:51:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=VphR/zitMMDhMmvDL9FX/xny9jh+rcoPr5cmMyhadTr7HQv6zkCIFub6s//KtsH1GHK8DRlrF5EVBGH/cog4eb3cfjWoKPe/mcxU1+Fpzgesz3co49XM/fq9fRphfJvxZ3jw8BaUAnTp+gwVMDUllkpnZ6wH1YUy8RtGP/V/Uio=; X-YMail-OSG: YMA3u90VM1nO.ESu_VgZfFWcHIwddeU5uUT0I2XIwnORM7ShboHIDdl9SXDl1rULC3WSsvCQV3DKmYMREjuZNDQVyw-- X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.10 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:51:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Message-ID: <144335.59957.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74566 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Second Life (& the Martix) Status: RO X-Status: "Second Life" is an ominous code-word of sorts in today's meme_world. The meaning, however, depends on which clique one happens to be a part of- presently... gamer-dude. Hey, they may call it a Playstation nowadays, but how long till it morphs into a forced-work-station? That, my friend, is what the trickster excels at: the double and triple-cross of making 'control' seem voluntary. Here is the plain vanilla story with following speculation, partially regurgitated. http://www.ddj.com/blog/portal/archives/2007/04/playstation_mee.html For present purposes, the following piece of wordy bogosity will not even consider the implications of second-life as they relate to religious dogma. There is plenty of info and dis-info on that subject elsewhere, yet it is all definitely entangled together as a prophetic view of a new collective identity: a NWO, so to speak. For the computer gamer, the second-life concept refers to the next generation of "virtual world" applications, such as the 3D Internet. Not just "SimCity" on steroids, but way beyond that level of visual crudeness. It will better than the best Pixar movie imaginable, and with human characters (avatars) so real that no one can be sure of what/who is real, and and what is not - and all done "on the fly", according to the whims of the game participants. This is on schedule for 2010. To the millennial alarmist or conspiracy theorist, on the other hand, "Second Life" could refer to an enabling technology for a kind of "Matrix" scenario, in the years following 2012, not unlike the movie ... which will result in a (possibly voluntary) type of future enslavement by machines of our own creation. It may appear to be voluntary, but the choice will like be that or nothing, so to speak. The irony is that the former field (computer games) will probably be seen as one of the major technological stepping stone for the later. A rapid advance towards a hidden goal requires an innocuous mass market, with lots of profit incentives, for quickly pushing the development of enabling-tek towards what could be a hidden goal (tyranny)... unless that kind of "everlasting life" is attractive to your tastes. Part of a trickster master plan, it would seem - since what is one person's tyranny is another's nirvana. And now for a good one: the Matrix in the context of 'alternative-energy' ... ROTFL- since in the eponymous movie, and perhaps as a dose of tongue-in-cheek humor, the remnant human population was said to be enslaved merely as "batteries" i.e. an energy source for a future energy-depleted world. Ironically in the NWO, and in the ultimate vision of human destiny: paradise is both eternal physical life, but of a type which has no correspondence to what the individual thinks is happening. It is 'tank life' - being hard-wired into a mainframe, and may end-up being be similar in appearances to the movie- i.e. an immobilized, enslaved, but totally "happy" and content population ... yet with a divine purpose which is a bit more sinister (than batteries). Why? Why not just destroy us all? Well, almost every serious Futurist who looks at AI concludes that the one and only thing which computers of the future will not be better at than humans is that special kind of creativity which is found in a tiny percentage of artists, inventors, writers, musicians, theorists and so on. The remaining 99.99% of humanity is just along for the ride, worker-bees who fill in the gaps made possible by a tiny segment of creative individuals. Is it poetic justice that this arty population of thinkers will be the future occupants of the matrix-tanks ? or, as gruesome as that sounds at first - at least there is a future for them, as for the other 99.99% of our species, they will likely share with dinosaurs the title of 'former dominant species' ... museum displays at best - at least according to those alarmists who would try to read much into cultural trends. Well, today's advance towards that vision of the NWO isn't much more threatening than the headline: PlayStation 3 meets the mainframe -- but it's still ominous to some. The deal in the article above is that IBM announced a project that integrates many of the near-teraflop cell processors (developed along with Sony for the PlayStation 3 game console) into an IBM mainframe. To what end? According to IBM - and assuming that they are not already under trickster control - it is for the purpose of creating a future hybrid that is fast and powerful enough to handle the new generation of "virtual world" applications - i.e.: second-life. ... or else, it this another piece of an emerging picture-puzzle - a real game we can now call "Evolutionary-Jump". On NPR recently there was an update on a non-invasive brain-computer interface technology, which already offers more control than once thought possible. A brain-computer interface (BCI) translates electric signals detected from the scalp or other stimuli into a command structure which the computer understands, and vice versa. It offers the same precision and speed as electrodes surgically implanted in the brain, but it had been widely assumed that only invasive devices could control complex activity. http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6745 Which brings to mind the continuation and logical progression of other prophetic visions seen in film-art: which are the subject of two remarkable but overlooked cinematic masterpieces - "Strange Days" and "Brainstorm". Fortunately, there is both a benign and a tyrannical vision of where it all could be leading. More later - on a more inviting kind of future-tek paradise. Sorry, guys, the 72 virgins is out. But Mr Smith can probably arrange something like that for your tank, if you prefer... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 12:00:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QJ0ARk003190; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:00:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QJ09GA003158; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:00:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:00:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MlIGv3zPQ19/I6dowdPN1CfuZixwEJae2LGK6xFAXksK16iCTf3bRW6iy1nXDdDm5+oBWdgTNNRpj9xeioj9h848E1fmYXiCsZu/U9io3xGAo4tzee+n0t2la46t4AXhXjG4X8OfjPdFOkMzvzLsX22jTGIJQILCh4phgDUa2T0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pTP3T/JQWQVoWILIRhxzac+g0T6iMDq6uvSO8EPDWyjomn0LC8ddu7ovpZS16inb4fMfwKXoBUhlBOP/44fMLYhUbDUgFIfzAZKH9qpLIDFnR2m80MBKicZUMBd9R450RYtZJiH3QbQtN75yTIKvYL830EWtF3TjTMkZ4bPSUuU= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:00:06 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Second Life (& the Martix) In-Reply-To: <144335.59957.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <144335.59957.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74567 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones... what are you smoking, and can i get some? On 4/26/07, Jones Beene wrote: > "Second Life" is an ominous code-word of sorts in today's meme_world. > > > > > The meaning, however, depends on which clique one happens to be a part of- presently... gamer-dude. Hey, they may call it a Playstation nowadays, but how long till it morphs into a forced-work-station? That, my friend, is what the trickster excels at: the double and triple-cross of making 'control' seem voluntary. Here is the plain vanilla story with following speculation, partially regurgitated. > > > > http://www.ddj.com/blog/portal/archives/2007/04/playstation_mee.html > > > > For present purposes, the following piece of wordy bogosity will not even consider the implications of second-life as they relate to religious dogma. There is plenty of info and dis-info on that subject elsewhere, yet it is all definitely entangled together as a prophetic view of a new collective identity: a NWO, so to speak. > > > > For the computer gamer, the second-life concept refers to the next generation of "virtual world" applications, such as the 3D Internet. Not just "SimCity" on steroids, but way beyond that level of visual crudeness. It will better than the best Pixar movie imaginable, and with human characters (avatars) so real that no one can be sure of what/who is real, and and what is not - and all done "on the fly", according to the whims of the game participants. This is on schedule for 2010. > > > > To the millennial alarmist or conspiracy theorist, on the other hand, "Second Life" could refer to an enabling technology for a kind of "Matrix" scenario, in the years following 2012, not unlike the movie ... which will result in a (possibly voluntary) type of future enslavement by machines of our own creation. > > > > It may appear to be voluntary, but the choice will like be that or nothing, so to speak. The irony is that the former field (computer games) will probably be seen as one of the major technological stepping stone for the later. A rapid advance towards a hidden goal requires an innocuous mass market, with lots of profit incentives, for quickly pushing the development of enabling-tek towards what could be a hidden goal (tyranny)... unless that kind of "everlasting life" is attractive to your tastes. > > Part of a trickster master plan, it would seem - since what is one person's tyranny is another's nirvana. > > > > And now for a good one: the Matrix in the context of 'alternative-energy' ... ROTFL- since in the eponymous movie, and perhaps as a dose of tongue-in-cheek humor, the remnant human population was said to be enslaved merely as "batteries" i.e. an energy source for a future energy-depleted world. > > > > Ironically in the NWO, and in the ultimate vision of human destiny: paradise is both eternal physical life, but of a type which has no correspondence to what the individual thinks is happening. It is 'tank life' - being hard-wired into a mainframe, and may end-up being be similar in appearances to the movie- i.e. an immobilized, enslaved, but totally "happy" and content population ... yet with a divine purpose which is a bit more sinister (than batteries). > > > > Why? Why not just destroy us all? Well, almost every serious Futurist who looks at AI concludes that the one and only thing which computers of the future will not be better at than humans is that special kind of creativity which is found in a tiny percentage of artists, inventors, writers, musicians, theorists and so on. The remaining 99.99% of humanity is just along for the ride, worker-bees who fill in the gaps made possible by a tiny segment of creative individuals. > > > > Is it poetic justice that this arty population of thinkers will be the future occupants of the matrix-tanks ? or, as gruesome as that sounds at first - at least there is a future for them, as for the other 99.99% of our species, they will likely share with dinosaurs the title of 'former dominant species' ... museum displays at best - at least according to those alarmists who would try to read much into cultural trends. > > > > Well, today's advance towards that vision of the NWO isn't much more threatening than the headline: PlayStation 3 meets the mainframe -- but it's still ominous to some. The deal in the article above is that IBM announced a project that integrates many of the near-teraflop cell processors (developed along with Sony for the PlayStation 3 game console) into an IBM mainframe. To what end? According to IBM - and assuming that they are not already under trickster control - it is for the purpose of creating a future hybrid that is fast and powerful enough to handle the new generation of "virtual world" applications - i.e.: second-life. > > > > ... or else, it this another piece of an emerging picture-puzzle - a real game we can now call "Evolutionary-Jump". On NPR recently there was an update on a non-invasive brain-computer interface technology, which already offers more control than once thought possible. A brain-computer interface (BCI) translates electric signals detected from the scalp or other stimuli into a command structure which the computer understands, and vice versa. It offers the same precision and speed as electrodes surgically implanted in the brain, but it had been widely assumed that only invasive devices could control complex activity. > > http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6745 > > > > Which brings to mind the continuation and logical progression of other prophetic visions seen in film-art: which are the subject of two remarkable but overlooked cinematic masterpieces - "Strange Days" and "Brainstorm". > > > > Fortunately, there is both a benign and a tyrannical vision of where it all could be leading. More later - on a more inviting kind of future-tek paradise. > > > > Sorry, guys, the 72 virgins is out. But Mr Smith can probably arrange something like that for your tank, if you prefer... > > > > Jones > > > > > > > > > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 12:08:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QJ8mLw009325; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:08:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QJ8llx009307; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:08:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:08:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kaNSujog0ZPhcZPUbGwJYCcAAWjliwQ8OILUcAkK3PaSAVmHtpg+NrO3aO39sardK13GOgryIomQF5/yTn4NV7Dj9l2Xzjxs31YHuXV2JLsE3QvPyXr30fd3VzrFXYd+lqhUmg231ACVBa0nicb7eLAXPML9aegDlugPBX2SUhg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OG5/UfpLtVkVoBLgwTi1S6UiUS+82uJWmIbWNn63OoThMGS97mhYMZNmEK1fgyN3U+UsaIBZDWCILZ78pdEB0jrGN3YIF9f8xT7oXYABdVubUYyU+3Mtb2kKYIErZ62nL0dqt9t5vOVMjsyLxkrB6BblcuGUwbJ52mwiox4+Xb4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:08:36 -0500 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426144227.0376a530@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <455523.84431.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070426115334.038d1420@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070426144227.0376a530@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74568 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Jed: ... > I think you mean "be dwarfed by." Just to be nit picky and totally annoying I'm not so sure about that. I reviewed "dwarf" out at http://dict.die.net/dwarf/. One example sentence uses the word as such: "Strange power of the world that, the moment we enter it, our great conceptions dwarf." But what the hay... or is that hey. Let's hope CF succeeds. steve -- Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 12:24:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QJO6dp024457; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:24:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QJO3rf024402; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:24:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:24:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bLmhf0T51J99QbS0+WL5bKfjGS+7X/Qhj/XGvuBGhOb7F/JErQuOHjeX9dRHv43RK9wtBnxmeSSO+jboEs5/De5m6QtrvoJcOa7sVy/LEdM6PuarluioivwlhDWjkhpVuaq9oCNtyKEZRwD+3siBcBaKTTeZHAmxWAXKnwLXVTw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VN70B3yNTAWvIVky6JIrgSG+GwHptC0zinD+EAczjOctzigNVTZHqwf7qd/ybMDfPcImRZmApIWsC77KlOEnRg4KVnMxzYYwq+h+t9IriGTTSMKPIV2OVhvRMUMrKlhjoYzXf6XDohP6feCUwFaW8x1m2geY0j5ix2q+QE/ljYQ= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:23:59 -0500 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Second Life (& the Martix) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <144335.59957.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74569 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones sez: ... > Sorry, guys, the 72 virgins is out. But Mr Smith can probably > arrange something like that for your tank, if you prefer... > Well, my tank better contain 72 virgins, two whores, and a goat. Or no deal. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 12:37:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QJbVx3025861; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:37:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QJbUEP025841; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:37:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:37:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426152940.037ae340@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426113707.0387de88@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:37:10 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74570 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Nuke plant has a hydrogen explosion Status: O X-Status: Frank Z. told me there was an accident reported at the Duke Energy McGuire nuclear power plant yesterday. He said 9 hydrogen tanks exploded. Frank sounds indignant, saying this "should never have happened." I gather he thinks someone must have been sloppy. I do not find anything about this on the Internet, so I called the online Charlotte Observer, http://www.charlotte.com They said they heard about the explosion. No one was hurt. The plant was not closed down as far as the reporter knows. He realized that the explosion was outside the reactor building, but he does not know serious it was. He sounded unconcerned. I find nothing on their website. The NRC website should have a report by and by. In Japan, there are continued revelations about screw ups and covered-up accidents in nuclear and conventional plants going back 30 years. On a scale of 1 to 10, the power company credibility is around minus five, I would say. The news reported that top managers and company presidents were slapped on the wrist on Monday, with a 3 month reduction in pay. They should serving prison sentences! - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 12:51:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QJpc1o013937; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:51:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QJpZwZ013916; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:51:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:51:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426154858.038cec88@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:51:31 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Power blackout in Colombia Status: O X-Status: The entire electric power system in Columbia failed today. CNN reported: Power returning to Colombia after nationwide blackout BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) -- Colombia's electrical grid collapsed Thursday, causing a nationwide blackout that briefly halted stock trading, trapped people in elevators and left authorities struggling to determine the cause. President Alvaro Uribe told journalists in the southern city of Cali that the blackout, which began at midmorning, "appears to have affected the entire country." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 13:11:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QKB9wG027261; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:11:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QKB6Vk027231; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:11:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:11:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426161031.037ae340@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:11:02 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5782421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Old but good paper Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_5782421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed See: Adzic, R.R., et al. Tritium Measurements and Deuterium Loading in D2O Electrolysis With a Palladium Cathode. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/AdzicRRtritiummea.pdf - Jed --=====================_5782421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" See:

Adzic, R.R., et al. Tritium Measurements and Deuterium Loading in D2O Electrolysis With a Palladium Cathode. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/AdzicRRtritiummea.pdf

- Jed
--=====================_5782421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 14:39:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QLdD6x016768; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:39:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QLdBvF016744; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:39:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:39:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:39:04 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_11066875==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Air Emissions Impacts of Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles in =?iso-8859-1?Q?Minnesota=92s?= Passenger Fleet Status: O X-Status: --=====================_11066875==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here is an interesting document about plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEV): Air Emissions Impacts of Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles in Minnesota's Passenger Fleet http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Air_Emissions_Impacts_of_PlugIn_Hybrid_Vehicles_in_Minnesotas_Pass_032907013010_PCA_PHEV_emissions_FINAL_2.pdf Fig. 3 and Table 5 show that with 100% of electricity generated with coal, a plug-in hybrid electric car with a 60 mile range would generate more CO2 per mile than a conventional car. However, most Minnesota and most other states have a mixture of coal and other electricity. Most of this document models a state with 60% electricity generated by coal. This is appropriate because in Minnesota, 64% of power comes from coal. See: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=MN Taking into account the electricity generated from natural gas, I suppose the total fossil fuel is ~70%, and from Table 5 I estimate carbon emissions for at 60-mile PHEV would be lower by about 25% (halfway between 80% and 60%. However, by the time PHEV become widely used, I expect Minnesota will install many more wind turbines, so total fossil fuel electricity will be down to around 60% (meaning that PHEV will reduce CO2 by 34%), or possibly even 50% (reducing CO2 by 51%). Minnesota is the #4 state in wind energy, and it is expanding rapidly. (http://www.awea.org/projects/minnesota.html) You can see that in California, where coal is hardly used, PHEV would greatly reduce CO2. In California, they generate 9 times more power from wind and "other renewables" than from coal. See http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=CA This document lists good sources from EPRI and elsewhere. - Jed --=====================_11066875==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Here is an interesting document about plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEV):

Air Emissions Impacts of Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles in Minnesota’s Passenger Fleet

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Air_Emissions_Impacts_of_PlugIn_Hybrid_Vehicles_in_Minnesotas_Pass_032907013010_PCA_PHEV_emissions_FINAL_2.pdf

Fig. 3 and Table 5 show that with 100% of electricity generated with coal, a plug-in hybrid electric car with a 60 mile range would generate more CO2 per mile than a conventional car. However, most Minnesota and most other states have a mixture of coal and other electricity.

Most of this document models a state with 60% electricity generated by coal. This is appropriate because in Minnesota, 64% of power comes from coal. See:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=MN

Taking into account the electricity generated from natural gas, I suppose the total fossil fuel is ~70%, and from Table 5 I estimate carbon emissions for at 60-mile PHEV would be lower by about 25% (halfway between 80% and 60%. However, by the time PHEV become widely used, I expect Minnesota will install many more wind turbines, so total fossil fuel electricity will be down to around 60% (meaning that PHEV will reduce CO2 by 34%), or possibly even 50% (reducing CO2 by 51%). Minnesota is the #4 state in wind energy, and it is expanding rapidly. ( http://www.awea.org/projects/minnesota.html)

You can see that in California, where coal is hardly used, PHEV would greatly reduce CO2. In California, they generate 9 times more power from wind and "other renewables" than from coal. See

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=CA

This document lists good sources from EPRI and elsewhere.

- Jed
--=====================_11066875==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 14:40:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QLe1MV032419; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:40:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QLdxgw032390; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:39:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:39:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=i/1JecrEC9eZEliAU3mi0vF/7A7AiMrrruvkNlGAb4pHh9+U9IhkkreVBNcAoroUQAJzfFLs4eRdhiYgofz9TmzDlmqy5QOvCgnUTq+uimKOT9vrBi12mFrDmzCh9CE0Gd+/lJ0RFNrkssAvqyrnTfNuzWSQR6z8iUYmOnHRjPg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZFC3aWz4p+NHwf5H+dFrjYe5C7z9Iwl/A1v+8FPN9F0xX6LXDfDMDjG7IOlE6BNRA35m7Ego22i2JQlCFjmboFwTCzLi/eBqp6i2WiOxXBUiBQ5HS0UdwVarQwEJIxQb5R/7wcpF/mKEAjhamMUS/gCU6JiGDYKZgisYE1WuqMQ= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:39:58 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Second Life (& the Martix) In-Reply-To: <144335.59957.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <144335.59957.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <081jb.A.85H.uwRMGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/26/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Which brings to mind the continuation and logical progression of other prophetic visions seen in film-art: which are the subject of two remarkable but overlooked cinematic masterpieces - "Strange Days" and "Brainstorm". Ackshully, "Snow Crash" frightens me more. It's almost here. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 15:26:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QMQbx9021636; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:26:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QMQZGt021612; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:26:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:26:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:26:29 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta06ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.1.98] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:26:28 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to leaking pen's message of Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:30:27 -0700: Hi, >except water is still reflective, more reflective than land, and large >amounts of land surface become water, yes? [snip] Not that you would notice. The rise in sea surface level has barely been millimeters AFAIK, and the effect on reduction of land surface area has = been minimal. Besides, this effect is lost in the noise of the tides anyway = (when the tide comes in it covers far more land surface than would be affected by = the minimal rise in sea level. The loss of ice cover is far more important, and may be the largest = contributing factor to the rapid warming of the polar regions. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 15:30:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QMUHUP023910; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QMUGsB023891; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VkE91OTKc0afwqipZlB0dGweSGmDutNF8lNYpsMMLeSwjsKxPgvE3twn8dusJDV5omgDeaOVJyo3GQh2dJlz9BkgadenqZwY++dNtm9YQFt/FWaF8auQNaBaouIcrQZywys19V+BaG5GYcGLE36qD5C9CCGqGn5BbsMfGMTbtDc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uXLmZktjasnRfTxkbhUHRaorAk52+g5DBkqrGFP0uAgpcvPZwu0oPnia5CzVKC8CdFvchQeV2muVedHDJmVBjOd0t1LJBx4LDIDrmJLFahKohNMJiZviswcl0JZJV396GweDO6lBizTcJNYACkbbuCDmxG4elUwQSmIIpH7UKs4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:11 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: <8GiCnD.A.J1F.4fSMGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Of course, since that increase would increase the tides, and increase the amount of land underwater both during high and low tide, your comparison to the tides is completely irrelevant. On 4/26/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to leaking pen's message of Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:30:27 -0700: > Hi, > > >except water is still reflective, more reflective than land, and large > >amounts of land surface become water, yes? > [snip] > Not that you would notice. The rise in sea surface level has barely been > millimeters AFAIK, and the effect on reduction of land surface area has been > minimal. Besides, this effect is lost in the noise of the tides anyway (when the > tide comes in it covers far more land surface than would be affected by the > minimal rise in sea level. > The loss of ice cover is far more important, and may be the largest contributing > factor to the rapid warming of the polar regions. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > The shrub is a plant. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 15:51:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QMpX8a021893; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:51:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QMpU8E021858; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:51:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:51:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=thKCtVZOGA9VXdfBAXSXt5S913YEgyByq6/Omcz3wVFkG+lBTj5s0t4EbPraXBcimTb0WfPwygi+2ijL0revbRBO05YP5j3vkqFHnPRLhCYVUz/vZTJQhwVqB9uLjfLUZSiQQS5mlO0r06nF5itycB4np/traN6rhXftv+OAgoo= ; X-YMail-OSG: DhzbH9oVM1mBXPTU6AJ8RyjOEgVYAQKf8AsOYbITKaVDx56HvRwWTf.XuEzUAUr2oAXOQ_czursMyDQnSHboyQJocYxlO_OwZTYprKBqkltVC_8P3Aiw3vGB8nyJLQ-- Message-ID: <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:51:28 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > You can see that in California, where coal is hardly used, PHEV would > greatly reduce CO2. Not "green" enough... and a potential liability. Without the "bettery" the PHEV is not a good solution anywhere. Lithium batteries are still having too many problems to be considered reliable and the cost is going up, not down - due to liability issues. After 15 years of mass production and refinement by the best companies (Sony etc), Lithium cells are still catching fire in computers; and given a few years of wear and tear, the same will happen in PHEVs. The lithium cell is a time bomb. A far better "Green" solution, available now - and less costly than any comparable Plug-in - AND especially desirable in LaLa land, where smog is a main concern, is to power the car with CNG (compressed natural gas) or LP. Lower pollution and less cost. BTW - A CNG hybrid would be a 'natural' in more ways than one. Hope you're listening Toyota. This eliminates all the line and battery losses for grid power - and the very high expense of lightweight batteries which will likely need replacement every 5 years- an enormous hidden liability for the PHEV. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17005861/ Wiki has a CNG entry now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas A Honda GX powered by natural gas topped an annual list of "greenest" 2007 model vehicles released in Feb. Natural gas has historically been less expensive than gasoline, but not by much lately -- yet Honda sez that GX buyers are eligible for a $4,000 federal tax credit, and possibly state credits as well. Buyers of the home refueling pump are also eligible for a $1,000 tax credit, but the pump itself costs around $3,500; installation is extra but can be done by a plumber. There are cheaper "not up to code" alternatives for home refueling. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 16:03:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QN31OT027505; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:03:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QN2xLt027481; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:02:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:02:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:02:35 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.1.98] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:02:34 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <5-1o-.A.PtG.i-SMGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to leaking pen's message of Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:11 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Of course, since that increase would increase the tides, and increase >the amount of land underwater both during high and low tide, your >comparison to the tides is completely irrelevant. It's true that the effect adds to both high and low tides, however we are talking mm's here (at least at present) as opposed to meters for the = tides themselves, and the variation in the tides with wind and weather is going= to totally swamp the effect you are talking about. That's why I said it gets= lost in the noise. Of course, over the longer term (a hundred years?) the effect you mention= will play a role, however I suspect that even then it will not be all that significant. Furthermore, much of the covered land will be what is = currently beach anyway (sand IOW), and sand is also quite reflective. I can't guess whether covering it with water would increase or decrease the total reflectivity. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 16:10:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QNA0KD013232; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:10:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QN9wfl013213; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:09:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:09:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JBhWN4ibWxJriqcKzpUmSrxBCWPBtoAHYdfCW+UXE5vVV0cvy2xJa5rUxnM12SwXyP0Cu1muru9cO3K5EgmBz/siCQsaO17ZsYwyybBAPXemeqiTzeC5n+b+M+mdRvV4/dIdfvaxOjXWBK5CEC5gPNO53lMX2+Ir7cRZ0zOtGTw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hw3St/fRsfJPsA2Gm+2w4gP+vFmckp/Myu7T6delzHwn2mEQrMPvLJ+Z6TZ0XBbG1ADUiHmYXserP9GZeZm3BouBKofx0JCNBtlv2Ky/SD+vVh2HR2KM0QqxazMlqhywkeQmBQC+MhfZFgMWLBGvu0+sp2ZN+rJAgdV0LNn/od4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:09:53 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Its not noise. its the normal cycle, and anything, even mm's is variation on the normal cycle. In addition, we are talking about the FUTURE, not right now. If the ice caps melt off, the sea level will rise by meters. No one is saying that small amount the sea levels have risen NOW is having a cooling effect. On 4/26/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to leaking pen's message of Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:11 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >Of course, since that increase would increase the tides, and increase > >the amount of land underwater both during high and low tide, your > >comparison to the tides is completely irrelevant. > > It's true that the effect adds to both high and low tides, however we are > talking mm's here (at least at present) as opposed to meters for the tides > themselves, and the variation in the tides with wind and weather is going to > totally swamp the effect you are talking about. That's why I said it gets lost > in the noise. > > Of course, over the longer term (a hundred years?) the effect you mention will > play a role, however I suspect that even then it will not be all that > significant. Furthermore, much of the covered land will be what is currently > beach anyway (sand IOW), and sand is also quite reflective. I can't guess > whether covering it with water would increase or decrease the total > reflectivity. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > The shrub is a plant. > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 16:23:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3QNNUFl025248; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:23:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3QNNM8p025137; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:23:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:23:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <19fb01c78859$dbddedd0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426161031.037ae340@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old but good paper Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:23:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "ABSTRACT Measurements have been performed to check on the Fleischmann-Pons (F-P) phenomena. They involved 1) measurements of tritium in the cell solution = and the gas above it; and 2) determination of the D/Pd ratio by coulometry. = Enhancement of tritium in the D2O solution was found in these two open glass cells, as well as = in another four cells with Ni-anodes. The largest enhancement factor found was ~50. The = neutron measurements were inconclusive." It seems quite good indeed, the experimental protocol seems very = rigorous. At first sight the sparged open cell experiment doesn't seem = costly or complicated. Tritium measurement may be less tricky and more = indisputable than calorimetry. Thanks for the great digitizing work. A couple typos in Table 3: 170 = should be 107, and 10^3 in "1.1 =D7 10^3 moles Pd" should be 10^-3 Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: [Vo]:Old but good paper > See: >=20 > Adzic, R.R., et al. Tritium Measurements and Deuterium Loading in D2O=20 > Electrolysis With a Palladium Cathode. in The First Annual Conference=20 > on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake=20 > City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute. >=20 > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/AdzicRRtritiummea.pdf >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 18:47:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3R1lFXo001532; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:47:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3R1lDqf001514; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:47:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:47:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: >>> KILL THE [Vo]: <<< Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:47:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C78844.0ECEB550" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" X-EN-OrigIP: 71.201.36.7 X-EN-OrigHost: c-71-201-36-7.hsd1.il.comcast.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C78844.0ECEB550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are more reasons to nix it than keep it. Not sure what the love affair with it is all about. The idiot that couldn't set up a simple email filter isn't even subscribed to the list anymore. Why must we continue to suffer with blank subject lines and the ever changing content? How is anyone supposed to follow any given thread past the first post ????? -j -----Original Message----- From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 3:56 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce wrote: PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up? Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed) ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C78844.0ECEB550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There=20 are more reasons to nix it than keep it.  Not sure what the love = affair=20 with it is all about.  The idiot that couldn't set up a simple = email=20 filter isn't even subscribed to the list anymore.  Why must we = continue to suffer with blank subject lines and the ever changing = content? =20 How is anyone supposed to follow any given thread past the first post=20 ?????
 
-j
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: John Berry=20 [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 3:56=20 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Re: = [Vo]:Re:=20 [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public=20 Demonstration

On 4/13/07, = Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>= =20 wrote:

PS=20 Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?

Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or=20 fixed)

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C78844.0ECEB550-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 18:47:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3R1lHva003665; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:47:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3R1lFGE003643; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:47:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:47:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:47:10 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <462D6605.2070805@usfamily.net> Importance: Normal X-EN-UserInfo: 903cebd83ef8529e7e6c1a7efe57779c:d8c21b0922dfed363e9ac277a3db5901 X-EN-AuthUser: johnsteck Sender: "John Steck" X-EN-OrigIP: 71.201.36.7 X-EN-OrigHost: c-71-201-36-7.hsd1.il.comcast.net Resent-Message-ID: <9tGkLB.A.w4.iYVMGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And cows pump out more methane globally than we do CO2 (my tribute to Fred)... methane is a way more harmful/reactive GHG (don't let the vegans find out, they are insufferable already). -j -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 9:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Paul Lowrance wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past > erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. > Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration." IOW, humanity > continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year. No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much CO2 as all human sources. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 26 22:40:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3R5eRfj014629; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:40:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3R5ePEg014614; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:40:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:40:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1a0a01c78860$6d08ce00$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 02:09:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <8A4rJ.A.OkD.IzYMGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 3cm observed sea level rise per decade(*) is not that small, and that's = vertical so it may translate to several tens of cms per decade = horizontally. Now it's not clear whether the effect significantly alters = the planet's albedo as Robin pointed out. If it does I would think it = makes it less reflective (dry sand must be more reflective than water), = so it would amplify the warming. There are several other warming amplifying effects, such as increased = atmospheric water vapor concentration (H2O is a GHG too), or CO2 = outgasing from the oceans due to decreased solubility at higher = temperature (which can be bad since there is about 50 times more = dissolved CO2 in the oceans than the total amount in the atmosphere now, = 40000Gt vs 800Gt off memory), all of which are taken into account in = climate models hopefully. Michel (*) page 7 of : INTERGOVERNMENTAL PANEL ON CLIMATE CHANGE Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis Summary for Policymakers http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf (Absolute must read BTW) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "leaking pen" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 1:09 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases > Its not noise. its the normal cycle, and anything, even mm's is > variation on the normal cycle. In addition, we are talking about the > FUTURE, not right now. If the ice caps melt off, the sea level will > rise by meters. No one is saying that small amount the sea levels > have risen NOW is having a cooling effect. >=20 > On 4/26/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> In reply to leaking pen's message of Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:11 = -0700: >> Hi, >> [snip] >> >Of course, since that increase would increase the tides, and = increase >> >the amount of land underwater both during high and low tide, your >> >comparison to the tides is completely irrelevant. >> >> It's true that the effect adds to both high and low tides, however we = are >> talking mm's here (at least at present) as opposed to meters for the = tides >> themselves, and the variation in the tides with wind and weather is = going to >> totally swamp the effect you are talking about. That's why I said it = gets lost >> in the noise. >> >> Of course, over the longer term (a hundred years?) the effect you = mention will >> play a role, however I suspect that even then it will not be all that >> significant. Furthermore, much of the covered land will be what is = currently >> beach anyway (sand IOW), and sand is also quite reflective. I can't = guess >> whether covering it with water would increase or decrease the total >> reflectivity. >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> The shrub is a plant. >> >> >=20 >=20 > --=20 > That which yields isn't always weak. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 04:38:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RBcOBr030683; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:38:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RBcMWX030666; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:38:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:38:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <60421EAF2FDC48C79AD503C284B9BED0@LeChoisis> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Fw: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:38:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16386 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16386 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Palmer" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW > John Steck wrote:- > < Fred)... methane is a way more harmful/reactive GHG>> (snip insult to > people of higher moral standing than the writer :o)) > > True'ish but not the whole truth. As methane is "way more harmful/reactive > than CO2", it does not build up in the atmosphere, particularly the upper > atmosphere where most of the damage is done. It reacts chemically with > something - it's gone! > > The bovine methane argument has been one of the lesser known reasons to > go vegetarian for many years - the "insufferable" ones have been ahead of > the pack for absolutely AGES! Interestingly enough, it is only the > domestic cow that creates the large amounts of methane (this needs > checking for validity - I only read about this once). I don't know if > this is because of their diet or if this was an unintended consequence of > their being bred for greater milk/meat production... > > Nick Palmer > > P.S. Same thing for water vapour which is also "way more reactive" than > CO2 - it doesn't accumulate significantly because it precipitates out as > rain or snow and similarly it does not affect the upper atmosphere (any > vapour that gets up there changes into ice crystals) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 06:19:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RDJS7J018426; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:19:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RDJQko018415; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:19:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:19:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1a9301c788ce$ab085900$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <60421EAF2FDC48C79AD503C284B9BED0@LeChoisis> Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:19:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: True but it does provide a positive feedback effect, i.e. the hotter it = gets, the more there is on average, and therefore the hotter it gets. Its average concentration will only decrease if temperature decreases = _first_ due to some stronger cooling effect. Such stronger cooling = effects _do_ exist in nature, or we would never had had ice ages every = 100000 years or so(*), but they are extremely slow in spite of the = deceivingly abrupt-looking slopes (it takes about 5000 years to plunge = into an ice age) so we shouldn't count on them to correct the = comparatively instantaneous presently observed warming trend. Michel (*) Have those mechanisms been purely astronomical up to now (long term = cyclical Earth orbit variations due to interactions with other planets) = does anyone know? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Nick Palmer" Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 11:20 AM ... > P.S. Same thing for water vapour which is also "way more reactive" = than=20 > CO2 - it doesn't accumulate significantly because it precipitates out = as=20 > rain or snow and similarly it does not affect the upper atmosphere = (any=20 > vapour that gets up there changes into ice crystals)=20 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 06:26:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RDQ5VG021649; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:26:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RDQ3J0021631; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:26:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:26:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Hn7dckSrOfxyznqRFDyZZ7sH0kkOpoOK1CpCvOwswvVWLj7CBo/CyfQxk3/MxKBjeDEIDw6xso3dUxUc50On2KqPUpSwXUiocGuY97lykgCpjlQ7uoxC0/ztxNkG/VY5vZSrBOp/NCRdyxQjHWgwfv+6kRLFuTVxlrYVWPGcyoM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=NoOydwMyZ1twHDISnpE8WDqrskoqa5Lms5Ky9P+XgIu0QwHc3w1lLdywBVoagdGfQ/XM7F9o5JBOw+dy91nT/kjXZgrjgRTIC1pRjw8B2B9zqBD5hyp2UlmN7j2ZO9EPETtvT6nUiUyvKP0kmpDiTBrCVZv4VYjJbu2AUXrV3RU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:26:01 -0500 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Energy from "pond scum" Status: O X-Status: SUBJECT: Energy from "pond scum" >From The Colorado Springs Business Journal: http://www.thepbj.com/story.cfm?ID=10545 Hey! Colorado! -- Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 08:22:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RFLs6k027021; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:21:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RFLqYF027000; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:21:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:21:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070427111828.038e9078@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:21:37 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com, "Michel Jullian" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old but good paper In-Reply-To: <19fb01c78859$dbddedd0$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426161031.037ae340@mindspring.com> <19fb01c78859$dbddedd0$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >Thanks for the great digitizing work. A couple=20 >typos in Table 3: 170 should be 107 . . . The original paper says 170. Do you think it is a mistake? >, and 10^3 in "1.1 =D7 10^3 moles Pd" should be 10^-3 Ah, that's in the footnote below Table 3. The=20 original says 10^3 but that clearly is a mistake. One mole of Pd is 106= grams. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 08:26:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RFQbiA025986; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:26:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RFQZi4025973; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:26:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:26:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112414.0376d708@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:26:32 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases In-Reply-To: <1a0a01c78860$6d08ce00$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> <1a0a01c78860$6d08ce00$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >3cm observed sea level rise per decade(*) is not that small, and >that's vertical so it may translate to several tens of cms per >decade horizontally. In 2004, the Japanese Meteorological Agency reported that the Inland Sea high tides have risen 7 cm in 20 years. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 08:40:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RFeDTF006275; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:40:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RFeBPS006230; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:40:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:40:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:40:07 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution In-Reply-To: <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>You can see that in California, where coal is hardly used, PHEV >>would greatly reduce CO2. > >Not "green" enough... and a potential liability. Why not green enough? As shown in Fig. 3 of Minnesota study, with the power generating system in California today, PHEV would reduce CO2 by half. With increased use of wind, solar thermal and geothermal, it would reduce it from 400 g/mile to 50 g/mile. No other present-day system can come close to that, except fully-electric vehicles, and they still do not have enough range for many drivers. >Lithium batteries are still having too many problems to be >considered reliable and the cost is going up, not down - due to >liability issues. After 15 years of mass production and refinement >by the best companies (Sony etc), Lithium cells are still catching >fire in computers . . . Actually, the PHEV developers at HybridCars.com recommend NiMH batteries. See: http://www.hybridcars.com/plug-in-hybrids/phev-battery-types.html But in any case, regarding the liability issue, how often do lithium batteries burn? Apart from the particular brands that are known to have problems and have been recalled, out of each 1 million batteries how many burn? Compare this to the number of automobiles that burn from gasoline. Cars and trucks often catch on fire; I have seen many, but I have never seen a battery burn. There have been many recalls of automobile engines for gasoline fire hazards. This is a problem, but it not so bad that it precludes the use of gasoline. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 09:16:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RGGWDs027726; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:16:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RGGRHB027679; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:16:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:16:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1ac601c788e7$64fb1d30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426161031.037ae340@mindspring.com> <19fb01c78859$dbddedd0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427111828.038e9078@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old but good paper Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:16:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, the text of the paper, last paragraph of page 6, says Qdischarge = =3D 107C for that charging voltage -0.35V, "roughly the same" as that = for -0.3V charging (given as 106.5C at the end of the previous = paragraph), plus the moles of D would not be right if it was 170 C = (Qdischarge/molesD =3D Faraday's constant 96500, this is how he finds = that moles D =3D 1.1 =D7 10^-3 =3D moles Pd, i.e. that the loading ratio = D/Pd is 1) Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; "Michel Jullian" Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old but good paper Michel Jullian wrote: >Thanks for the great digitizing work. A couple=20 >typos in Table 3: 170 should be 107 . . . The original paper says 170. Do you think it is a mistake? >, and 10^3 in "1.1 =D7 10^3 moles Pd" should be 10^-3 Ah, that's in the footnote below Table 3. The=20 original says 10^3 but that clearly is a mistake. One mole of Pd is 106 = grams. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 09:21:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RGL06x014117; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:21:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RGKx96014104; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:20:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:20:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1aca01c788e8$09121a40$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> <1a0a01c78860$6d08ce00$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112414.0376d708@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:20:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The 3mm/year (3.1 exactly) rise given by the IPCC between 1993 and 2003 = (so this would be 6.2 cm in 20 years, in fair agreement with the JMA = figure you quote) results from satellite measurements. Michel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases > Michel Jullian wrote: >=20 >>3cm observed sea level rise per decade(*) is not that small, and=20 >>that's vertical so it may translate to several tens of cms per=20 >>decade horizontally. >=20 > In 2004, the Japanese Meteorological Agency reported that the Inland=20 > Sea high tides have risen 7 cm in 20 years. >=20 > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 10:18:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RHId8D012214; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:18:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RHIbUj012198; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:18:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:18:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070427131411.03771258@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:17:37 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Detroit News: Ford tackles climate change Status: O X-Status: This may be the usual corporate B.S. but at least it sounds different from the B.S. we heard a year ago, or ten years ago. - Jed See: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070424/AUTO01/704240346/1148 April 24, 2007 Ford tackles climate change CEO Mulally says global warming is real; creates new environmental post Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News In one of the strongest statements on climate change ever made by a U.S. auto industry executive, Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally said Monday that global warming is real, manmade and caused in part by auto emissions. "The vast majority of data indicates that the temperature has increased, and I believe the correlation and the analysis says that is mainly because of the greenhouse gases keeping the heat in. You can just plot it with the Industrial Revolution and the use of all of our resources," he said. Mulally made the comments during a telephone press conference called to announce the promotion of Susan Cischke, Ford's vice president of environmental and safety engineering, to the newly created post of senior vice president in charge of sustainability, environment and safety engineering -- a move Mulally said was meant to underscore the importance of this issue to Ford's corporate strategy. "It's about sustainability, it's about mobility, it's about safety, it's about (being) stewards of our environment," he said. "This is the biggest agenda we have at Ford. I think it's going to be one of the most important considerations to the customers that buy our products and services going forward." Also Monday, General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said the U.S. government needs to take a Manhattan Project-like approach to creating a national energy policy, bringing the best minds in the country to bear on the issue of energy sustainability and independence. Dismissing skeptics America's automakers have acknowledged that climate change is a serious issue, and one their industry must address. But Mulally's statement was one of the clearest yet that global warming is not a natural phenomenon, as some skeptics -- including Lutz -- have suggested. "I'm just gratified that it seems like, in the court of public opinion, we have moved to the place where we all are starting to appreciate and agree that this really is an issue, and that we all want to do something about it," he said. It was a statement he reiterated Monday afternoon in an e-mail to Ford employees, a copy of which was obtained by The Detroit News. "I firmly believe we are at an inflection point in the world's history as it relates to climate change and energy security. The time for debating whether climate change is real has past It is time for a conversation about what we, as a society, intend to do to address it," Mulally wrote. . . . Environmentalists cautious While environmentalists welcomed Mulally's candor on global warming, some questioned his choice to lead Ford's environmental efforts. "We're a little concerned. Sue Cischke has been Ford's public face for fighting a lot of things that would help stop global warming," said the Sierra Club's Brendan Bell. "Clearly, there is a desire at certain levels of Ford's management to promote sustainability. But they're much better at creating new positions than new policies." Ford has drawn fire in the past for reneging on environmental promises, like then-CEO Bill Ford Jr.'s pledge to build 250,000 hybrids annually by 2010. Ford retracted that commitment less than a year later. . . . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 10:40:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RHeEcl004176; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:40:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RHeCXN004153; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:40:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:40:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hl8AZUv7tcZxmS5Z+OiwTUdlLgD6CWDMQZ2843yyW8AtyZUYc7CTIp1cWeGNnosvoSK8GDO3eIVBR37PNSiG1NU8doTScbLnSFNIHipXp1dg3YII7jASCE+JZIYSQCgRqUSw5G89xkqiumvL4D4TLCfdU0AMxhgstm6pbtzHaac= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Ynx+ankdjBef9jE9PyCMeeqnY8jcJDtd/e2IuX7cBdgF4LqSXwdw8j7PEgPb2iRHPzda2Q39LkE0+mAeG24iWJQZ9J3uf58G0jVITKjAyHLcAdQfV7vN+t98iJcBkErtbKlqN95+EV5krYyCTDMq1vPl22Sjm01f4YL/m59xSCo= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:40:04 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/27/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Cars and trucks often catch on fire; I have seen many, > but I have never seen a battery burn. LOL! More people have been killed by Ford Pintos than Dell laptops. For that matter, more people have been killed by Ted Kennedy's car than laptop batteries. Actually, many laptops have burned: http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-18,GGLD:en&q=burning+laptop http://snipurl.com/1ig08 but, I am not aware of any deaths. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 11:01:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RI0c5w017430; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:00:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RI0a0l017404; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:00:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:00:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070427134901.0376d708@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:00:24 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>Cars and trucks often catch on fire; I have seen many, >>but I have never seen a battery burn. > >LOL! More people have been killed by Ford Pintos than Dell laptops. Well, naturally a burning automobile is more dangerous than a burning laptop, because there is so much fuel available. On the other hand, it would be scary if a laptop were to burst into flames in an airplane. (I think they mainly burn while charging, but nowadays you can plug in a laptop in-fight on some airplanes -- and on the Amtrak train I rode the other day.) My main point was that a small number of battery types have caused most of the fires, and I sure the manufactures will fix the problem. Sony had to fork over $257 million to compensate customers and replace batteries. That's not the kind of problem management will ignore. Regarding fuel and fires, last month when I was revising the aircraft section of my book, I discussed fuel and range with an old pilot. He told me what pilots always say: 'The only time you have too much fuel is when the plane is on fire.' Pilots have lots of these pithy maxims. I like this one: 'There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.' - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 11:32:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RIWl0J010739; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:32:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RIWk6Q010724; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:32:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:32:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SUxkmP8vqYqh1vkMPvNWkI/fcsKitxY8rqBaKcCye4FeStR/NYh2FeQR/smHx4teh1qala1WUchiE1lRzduEcsjSkZNsmtJaxMSnbk4xQBjX88Ft8UVCsKDxdrt6jiQIbuLqCsJlkJTmJQ1fayfng7lMuFBL/aOCewTP2eSEy1Q= ; X-YMail-OSG: N.QfjqUVM1lEegzy5YzynmbQCnhKyypd58I0LGpsrwWeoptgUs6xQnOXh0gH4gfX8Nuvcf.4NJocBg5GVCQevSO9VTZJofglv4YbvdAOfKlUWao_7dI- Message-ID: <463241C8.6090504@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:32:40 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: PHEVs not a good solution Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 4/27/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: >> Cars and trucks often catch on fire; I have seen many, >> but I have never seen a battery burn. > > LOL! More people have been killed by Ford Pintos than Dell laptops. > For that matter, more people have been killed by Ted Kennedy's car > than laptop batteries. > > Actually, many laptops have burned: > > http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-18,GGLD:en&q=burning+laptop Don't know how/why this thread got sidetracked to "death" - as that was not even a remote suggestion, as far as manufacturer's *liability* goes. Simple replacement cost is bad enough to kill your budget. A PHEV in today's economy - without the advent (technology breakthrough) of the 'bettery' requires $6,000 to 10,000 worth of lithium or metal hydride batteries with a life expectancy of only a few years, in order to guarantee a risk free round trip of 60 miles- 100 Klics. If not for the exorbitant cost and low performance of the most advanced batteries - we would have more of these vehicles on the road now. Manufacturers are not that stupid, except maybe GM. It does not even take a fire -certainly not a death- to render that investment in batteries negative, in the sense that there is no such thing as a "small" lithium leak - and the result will be not only a complete replacement of batteries, but high labor and disposal fees. That is totally *unacceptable* to any non-tree-hugging consumer; and given our experience with laptops - the high recurrent replacement cost, with or without a leak/fire/death is certain to be an overriding issue with pug-ins using present day technology. Once again - under any possible circumstances *using present day technology* the lowest possible CO2 burden - and the reason that the 2007 Green Prize for automotive was awarded to the Honda CNG car - is obvious. You can buy this vehicle now. And - when Honda and Toyota "hybridize" the CNG powered ICE, then more bad news for the PHEV - even if an EEStor "bettery' is in there by then, due to the much higher cost, lower trip length, and higher (but shifted from tail-pipe to smokestack) CO2. Best of all environmentally - of course- is the *carbon neutral* biodiesel fueled hybrid, and that is only months away from introduction - actually available now in some localities (there are a few dozen biodiesel stations nationwide) according to one web-site (and Willie Nelson). Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 11:39:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RIdPks014331; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:39:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RIdN3P014308; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:39:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:39:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427134901.0376d708@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:38:58 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c788fb$5187c690$6401a8c0@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070427134901.0376d708@mindspring.com> Thread-Index: AceI9ibwiOXXkOwGQzm3MHw3vAxIHgABID8g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <90n0zB.A.efD.aNkMGB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 2:00 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution Here's another good one Jed: It is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, than to be flying and wishing you were on the ground. Jeff He told me what pilots always say: 'The only time you have too much fuel is when the plane is on fire.' Pilots have lots of these pithy maxims. I like this one: 'There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.' - Jed No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/777 - Release Date: 4/26/2007 3:23 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/777 - Release Date: 4/26/2007 3:23 PM From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 12:38:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RJcVTk023067; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:38:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RJcSUf023031; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:38:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:38:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nzpy6BUN4humT2RksQQZL1ukjuilhf0HDLqFppS01rLYKCkilbQUafl3Ynfj3FLmy2yhuqPoO6cOvkgfAMNasIt61Lp8qC8RINYIXZXMNyWzQ31eEbkdmsWDLdMSqtiy4ycv4/QxezWR9HBs0RnPy6Er1rfbxYlJ3dU9seE4g+U= ; X-YMail-OSG: jccsofYVM1m.xhTq1WH0IXt2BizeFpw6rwMXHE5jWifxGtO.DM49SOp.IQxxce7E_SKtbkQ2SiArtmzAtvlxovdLEJW0IMKUJgvul6AqFEe88f7iCjg- Message-ID: <46325131.2030802@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:38:25 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> <463241C8.6090504@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <463241C8.6090504@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Re: PHEVs not a good solution Status: O X-Status: The next big 'green thing' ?? Wow. Just found this: China is ready to import a 'green cherry' of a=20 vehicle: the Chery A3 ISG diesel hybrid, unveiled at Shanghai motor=20 show. Looks decent, and it seems to have everything that the 'green'=20 crowd wants, including less sticker-shock. http://www.globalautoindex.com/news.plt?no=3D1829 The hybrid vehicle combines an 'independently developed' [not sure=20 independence is a plus for them] 1.3-liter diesel engine with a 30kW=20 permanent magnet synchronous motor and a CVT - a continuously variable=20 transmission which is an efficiency standard that even the Prius lacks.=20 It will be able to burn biodiesel without alteration and is said to=20 significantly lower cost than the Prius, but that has not yet been=20 announced. **If only** - this car arrives without the bugs of first-time auto=20 introductions, it should have a ready market. One of the best things=20 about the Prius is the Toyota reputation. The Chery company OTOH is a=20 youngster - founded in 1997 and sold 305,000 vehicles in 2006 and=20 estimates sales of 392,000 in 2007. It has subsequently built plants in=20 Iran, Russia and Malaysia with one of its models - the Chery QQ -=20 selling for only $5400. General Motors has been in talks in Shanghai=20 with the company. They would be real smart to be the importer. It has a dual-clutch parallel diesel strong hybrid design. When the=20 vehicle is stopped, the system will enter =93auto idle stop=94 mode and t= he=20 engine will stop if the batteries are fully charged; when the vehicle is = started, the electric motor will provide the drive power; then when=20 necessary, the diesel engine will be started rapidly and the vehicle=20 will enter into parallel type combined torque drive mode; when the=20 vehicle is decelerated or braked, the ISG motor operate to recover some=20 of the lost energy. It is a fabulous desig --- ON PAPER. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 13:06:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RK6NZQ004727; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:06:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RK6LHV004702; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:06:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:06:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070427155944.03771258@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:06:15 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: PHEVs not a good solution In-Reply-To: <46325131.2030802@pacbell.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> <463241C8.6090504@pacbell.net> <46325131.2030802@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-aYd_.A.TJB.9elMGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Wow. Just found this: China is ready to import a 'green cherry' of a >vehicle: the Chery A3 ISG diesel hybrid, unveiled at Shanghai motor >show. Looks decent, and it seems to have everything that the 'green' >crowd wants, including less sticker-shock. > >http://www.globalautoindex.com/news.plt?no=1829 This is supposed to use "3.01 l per 100 km." That's 33.2 km/l, or 78 mpg. That's pretty good, especially for a starting product. Next year's Prius is rumored to be over 100 mpg. They have a headstart. I predict that by the time GM tries to make these things Toyota and Honda will be well over 100 mpg, even without a plug-in option. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 13:20:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3RKK1QO015396; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:20:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3RKBfM5011504; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:11:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M2yo5I20FVzzKimv0RmJPhQ0OP0YcxNy2rzL6AjDYscYXapuBPhK+iRt8BTJLDjcvGwasYz/l8lEHmNosswm2x6xixx/oqNvuTExGndXhefGLQHzPNsomNDBOw7wscC14eIhYIFwuphbPmlMZp+fgysEoGaKeZLlhXMf8xJC1DA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nElhQ/tLKS/PsMxd43sOOX3doroeuidex7icOlRPH0rbetWxHCGp/XA1fQeXa/K9Z8xPU/P5Rh4VP5Fhpm/p4XNYrBrv8y370H1sVhgWMOGV0T4zXWWtg1enFFc2OwFrcR1LHg3LIBMwtFfeCr5ha9BxVBg6kTFa5BasiD2I2W0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:11:39 -0500 From: OrionWorks To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: PHEVs not a good solution In-Reply-To: <46325131.2030802@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426171746.038cec88@mindspring.com> <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112646.03771258@mindspring.com> <463241C8.6090504@pacbell.net> <46325131.2030802@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/27/07, Jones Beene wrote: > The next big 'green thing' ?? > > Wow. Just found this: China is ready to import a 'green cherry' of a > vehicle: the Chery A3 ISG diesel hybrid, unveiled at Shanghai motor > show. Looks decent, and it seems to have everything that the 'green' > crowd wants, including less sticker-shock. > > http://www.globalautoindex.com/news.plt?no=1829 > Sleek & sexy looking design lines. That always helps. -- Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 17:01:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3S01OcJ004549; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:01:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3S01MGH004516; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:01:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:01:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=LzOjlgvpfvi1trtB7RxtE1M470JR2mqdCh3PYciM9S0EpNm8K9d1nQzbVij/pE96; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <17986670.1177718476251.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:01:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8208cd6cf21f93dacef3187b93683a3bb92764449e275203c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.42 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 27, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Apr 27, 2007 2:27 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 27, 2007 WHAT=E2=80=99S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 27 Apr 07 Washington, DC=20 1. THE HABITABLE ZONE: THE GOOD NEWS IS THEY=E2=80=99RE NOT COMING HERE. H= umans,=20 fragile self-replicating chemical factories, are trapped on a tiny planet= =20 for a few dozen orbits about an undistinguished star among countless other= =20 stars in one of billions of galaxies. And yet, these insignificant specks= =20 have the audacity to imagine they can figure it all out - and maybe they=20 can. The most compelling scientific quest is to find life to which=20 Earthlings are not related. The first great discovery of this Century was= =20 to confirm that other stars have planets - lots of them. This week=20 European astronomers found a planet in the habitable zone of Gliese 581, a= =20 red dwarf in the constellation Libra. The public was thrilled. We can=20 learn a lot from here, and it=E2=80=99s going to be exciting. Each year I a= sk my=20 class of freshman physics majors if they think humans will visit another=20 star someday. Most say yes, so we take a few minutes of each class to=20 plan the mission. What=E2=80=99s the closest star? How long are you prepa= red to=20 travel? How big will the spaceship have to be? How will you pass the=20 time? Anyway, we=E2=80=99ll be able to travel much faster some day, so may= be 50=20 years. There=E2=80=99s always one that insists there=E2=80=99s gotta be a = basketball=20 court. Near the end of the semester they calculate the kinetic energy of= =20 the spacecraft to make the trip in 50 years. Hmmm, the velocity is=20 squared. Maybe, they conclude, we could just find a way to exchange e-mail= s. 2. WARHEADS: THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT NUCLEAR STOCKPILES ARE AGING. It was=20 just five years ago that the Nuclear Posture Review, was leaked=20 http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn031502.html . It was a Pentagon=20 report calling for development of a new class of small nuclear weapons to= =20 blur the distinction between nuclear and conventional weapons. Public=20 exposure killed the plan. But Dr. Strangelove never gives up. The Bush ad= ministration is again pushing for a new generation of nuclear weapons; this= time it=E2=80=99s the Reliable Replacement Warhead, an idea that=E2=80=99s= been around for 30 years. In fact, having spent billions on a Science-Bas= ed Stockpile Stewardship Program, there=E2=80=99s no need for the RRW. U.S.= warheads=20 will retain their capability for another century. 3. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: IRAQ NO LONGER POSES A NUCLEAR THREAT. We=20 invaded Iraq because of their weapons of mass destruction. It worked=20 perfectly. Iraq hasn=E2=80=99t had a nuclear weapon since. But now we lea= rn that=20 there=E2=80=99s a nuclear threat brewing across the border in Iran. =20 Unfortunately, our troops are sort of tied up. We need more missile=20 defense sites like the ones we built in Alaska and California to deal with= =20 the missile threat from North Korea. Of course that missile defense is=20 still being tested and we don=E2=80=99t actually turn it on, but we think w= e=20 could. It worked anyway. North Korea still doesn=E2=80=99t have a missile= , or a=20 warhead. To take care of the Iran threat we want to install missile=20 defenses in Eastern Europe like the one that doesn=E2=80=99t work in Alaska= . =09 THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=3Dbobparks-whatsnew&A=3D1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 27 18:04:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3S141Rq020817; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:04:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3S13w7N020799; Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:03:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:03:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAIo6MkbLrQICUGdsb2JhbAANj3oBAT4 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,463,1170604800"; d="scan'208"; a="823676906:sNHT43996172" Message-ID: <46329D94.4060106@iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:04:20 +1000 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 27, 2007 References: <17986670.1177718476251.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <17986670.1177718476251.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: >-----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki > > > >>From: What's New >>Sent: Apr 27, 2007 2:27 PM >> >> >To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU >Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 27, 2007 > >WHAT’S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 27 Apr 07 Washington, DC > >1. THE HABITABLE ZONE: THE GOOD NEWS IS THEY’RE NOT COMING HERE. Humans, >fragile self-replicating chemical factories, are trapped on a tiny planet >for a few dozen orbits about an undistinguished star among countless other >stars in one of billions of galaxies. And yet, these insignificant specks >have the audacity to imagine they can figure it all out - and maybe they >can. The most compelling scientific quest is to find life to which >Earthlings are not related. The first great discovery of this Century was >to confirm that other stars have planets - lots of them. This week >European astronomers found a planet in the habitable zone of Gliese 581, a >red dwarf in the constellation Libra. The public was thrilled. We can >learn a lot from here, and it’s going to be exciting. Each year I ask my >class of freshman physics majors if they think humans will visit another >star someday. Most say yes, so we take a few minutes of each class to >plan the mission. What’s the closest star? How long are you prepared to >travel? How big will the spaceship have to be? How will you pass the >time? Anyway, we’ll be able to travel much faster some day, so maybe 50 >years. There’s always one that insists there’s gotta be a basketball >court. Near the end of the semester they calculate the kinetic energy of >the spacecraft to make the trip in 50 years. Hmmm, the velocity is >squared. Maybe, they conclude, we could just find a way to exchange e-mails. > >2. WARHEADS: THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT NUCLEAR STOCKPILES ARE AGING. It was >just five years ago that the Nuclear Posture Review, was leaked >http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn031502.html . It was a Pentagon >report calling for development of a new class of small nuclear weapons to >blur the distinction between nuclear and conventional weapons. Public >exposure killed the plan. But Dr. Strangelove never gives up. The Bush administration is again pushing for a new generation of nuclear weapons; this time it’s the Reliable Replacement Warhead, an idea that’s been around for 30 years. In fact, having spent billions on a Science-Based Stockpile Stewardship Program, there’s no need for the RRW. U.S. warheads >will retain their capability for another century. > >3. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: IRAQ NO LONGER POSES A NUCLEAR THREAT. We >invaded Iraq because of their weapons of mass destruction. It worked >perfectly. Iraq hasn’t had a nuclear weapon since. But now we learn that >there’s a nuclear threat brewing across the border in Iran. >Unfortunately, our troops are sort of tied up. We need more missile >defense sites like the ones we built in Alaska and California to deal with >the missile threat from North Korea. Of course that missile defense is >still being tested and we don’t actually turn it on, but we think we >could. It worked anyway. North Korea still doesn’t have a missile, or a >warhead. To take care of the Iran threat we want to install missile >defenses in Eastern Europe like the one that doesn’t work in Alaska. > > >THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. >Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the >University of Maryland, but they should be. >--- >Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org >What's New is moving to a different listserver and our >subscription process has changed. To change your subscription >status please visit this link: > http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 > > > Bobs going all political lol. I knew all this stuff years ago. Its very banal, even the extrasolar planet and its parameters are unsurprising. The old Guy is getting predictable. I think we will be in a shooting war with Iran in 3-4 months and a mates going to the region. Ouch. Iran has the blue prints of the Pakistan nukes according to the Paki nuke maker. Its a tested bomb so they need only the fissile material. The 12th Imam legends say that the Sunni cities will burn. No mention of Israel. The targets are Baghdad, Riyadh and the Sunni triangle cities. A shot at Israel might be made to confuse things. Making the destruction of Iran’s other targets look like an Israeli retaliation. Israel is a small target and the Iranian missiles are not accurate. A shot at Israel could hit Jordan, the West bank or Gaza. The fall out will get to Palestinian territory anyway. Israelis have shelters and training the Palestinians don't. If Israel is hit it could spell the end or extinction of Palestine with no Israeli response. The population density of Israel is such that there are no more than 2 million Jews in any possible target area. Iran can’t target Jerusalem, Mecca or Medina. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 28 07:00:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3SE0Z0m003310; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:00:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3SE0Xik003293; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:00:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:00:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=pBebYEqXebvjRV+HviKemDUSPdbtvhAQ3NVj+CWCBJ3NsTCSeO9FV35+X78GYabsDncvmR2LrUi05yLnvHolBrJVMQha2A3NrDRDSWScO1ZVJFm5cGd8Y1j+qe2PiH+Mt8HYYNt3Nbb7EftB/Rv5Z9s+JkmgD88t8f2zGbBiXNU= ; X-YMail-OSG: X0a89UoVM1m8s4rf7u7nTCgbYQuoyaikAFmyrzPk_aB3WTVic1ef_3RDgPq.48i2pqCljqZR_Ot2TmoHEApoWlrIRNf7.OxF4Tbn6cV32l9EvIdzDumO5CDKxmKhUA-- Message-ID: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:00:30 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74602 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Nice little demo Status: RO X-Status: Short Video demonstrating a small amount of "free" ... well, if not energy then free-voltage, submitted by "vortexentity" http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=vortexentity Admittedly, a voltage potential created by magnetic polarization is not necessarily "free energy" yet this demo seems like it could be taken further... ...as in" the All American solution to every impediment: **Super-Size-it** Nice work, Michael Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 28 07:21:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3SELAhc008074; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:21:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3SEL7W6008050; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:21:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:21:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Qf7MVXTzCt7URLBruz0FTtchqIB5lFqdNJfmm/PiXkjdp3WcGXWWc/RHPHd6r4ziQ7Zrjboww+ah1LI0tAjpNCTWgYzduNwr4iXxMjc1Wsznb9leM+C+NrGIPWeCbqOLLp/7vq4r3Vw+6D807JEh3EEazl8G1k7eofh2JIlPUFg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=rxbKD9yfhtBZfK80r/CNZEIC+Eq9at2Cr1kvsUeT3j5olYBeSKR00XVkZ4HnYjQz21CLO3sK4Z6PpKhS5x0SrlIegIR/byTEOzffsbKm8HFQCNyN5DGOfjNboA7GTdgRQTfsJxtln4Pog4VvpG9k0ixXZ0aWH+pN7ob8vdlEKck= Message-ID: <4633584D.4000201@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:21:01 -0700 From: Paul Lowrance User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:C2C guest tonight References: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74603 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tonight, Sat 04/28/2007 Physicist Sean Carroll will explore the Big Bang, quantum gravity, singularities, black holes, and other theories about the universe we live in. Regards, Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 28 08:59:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3SFwwE3016098; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:58:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3SFwtdJ016071; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:58:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:58:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:58:53 -0700 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nice little demo Message-ID: <20070428155853.GA3610@linux> References: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74604 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't think it's magnetic -- it's a battery with him as the electrolyte. But he's only generating 10 microamps because his palms aren't sweaty enough. Give him some porn to look at and the output should go way up. (Anybody who thinks of frictional electricity at this point has a dirty mind!) Mark On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 07:00:30AM -0700, Jones Beene wrote: >Short Video demonstrating a small amount of "free" ... well, if not >energy then free-voltage, submitted by "vortexentity" > >http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=vortexentity > >Admittedly, a voltage potential created by magnetic polarization is not >necessarily "free energy" yet this demo seems like it could be taken >further... > >...as in" the All American solution to every impediment: > >**Super-Size-it** > >Nice work, Michael > >Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 28 10:20:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3SHK0uo010831; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:20:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3SHJvSw010798; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:19:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:19:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [81.211.8.2] X-Originating-Email: [dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <4633584D.4000201@gmail.com> From: "Dean McGowan" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:C2C guest tonight Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 03:19:54 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Apr 2007 17:19:56.0724 (UTC) FILETIME=[715D3F40:01C789B9] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74605 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status:

It's a night in then ;)


Dean

From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:C2C guest tonight
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:21:01 -0700
Tonight, Sat 04/28/2007 Physicist Sean Carroll will explore the Big Bang, quantum gravity, singularities, black holes, and other theories about the universe we live in.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 28 10:57:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3SHv9Cj009844; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:57:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3SHv6ZL009819; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:57:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:57:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QcbsKc42jAL0UumaKWOoIXCIJRUPszcmPc09bxx4uxzjIkXhW6cxwQcTE0OcD2zkFrCDyFt0LUgZyBbJxUuAeyrQVm2eupN3/iso9sl83hBtvOx2Gxj1gXII6VjPLv8URRW5xjfLj5Uwu0cOmLV0FV7DBIe/1vghAsxcjtsKmFs= ; X-YMail-OSG: gLlPwfsVM1lzmrsP8VE237If1iBeXkOGepeJJaSxWk6ENRGk6Tf0k_MK7SEX2IYIIEWywwu6NmrXVdKpYVjcmi60U9VvjXss8xyp25wGBg6NS9y_sFgXp3g0Bz9rhA-- Message-ID: <46338AEF.6080706@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:57:03 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nice little demo References: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> <20070428155853.GA3610@linux> In-Reply-To: <20070428155853.GA3610@linux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74606 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: oops --- sent the wrong reference: should be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=413sLpBzAB8 Mark S Bilk wrote: > I don't think it's magnetic -- it's a battery with him as the > electrolyte. But he's only generating 10 microamps because > his palms aren't sweaty enough. Give him some porn to look at > and the output should go way up. (Anybody who thinks of > frictional electricity at this point has a dirty mind!) > > Mark > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 07:00:30AM -0700, Jones Beene wrote: >> Short Video demonstrating a small amount of "free" ... well, if not >> energy then free-voltage, submitted by "vortexentity" >> >> http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=vortexentity >> >> Admittedly, a voltage potential created by magnetic polarization is not >> necessarily "free energy" yet this demo seems like it could be taken >> further... >> >> ...as in" the All American solution to every impediment: >> >> **Super-Size-it** >> >> Nice work, Michael >> >> Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 28 12:25:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3SJPEVE011283; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:25:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3SJPBKV011259; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:25:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:25:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:25:10 -0700 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nice little demo Message-ID: <20070428192510.GD3610@linux> References: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> <20070428155853.GA3610@linux> <46338AEF.6080706@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <46338AEF.6080706@pacbell.net> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74607 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 10:57:03AM -0700, Jones Beene wrote: >>>Admittedly, a voltage potential created by magnetic polarization is not >>>necessarily "free energy" yet this demo seems like it could be taken >>>further... >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=413sLpBzAB8 Except for the digital readout, that innocent-looking little voltmeter could be mistaken for the old galvanometer-type multimeter of 50 years ago, but it's actually an FET version of what used to be called a VTVM - vacuum-tube voltmeter. In other words, it has an extremely high input resistance, many megohms. My old Heathkit V-7A VTVM had 10M ohm and would hit the stops if I ran a comb through my hair and waved it near the voltage probe. So if the voltmeter in the demo has an input resistance of 10 M ohms (it may be much higher), the capacitor is putting out about 1 nanoamp at 10 millivolt, which is ten trillionths of a watt (10^-11). This is the second video in a pair. Clicking on the "more from this user" link brings a list with the first one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iGEsVaIftk One of the comments to it says: "I have a NEC memory cap 5.5V 0.047F and it gives about 16mV all the time without any magnets. Even after a long time of shorting it builds the 16mV in 2 minutes. It is a chemical reaction in the cap because it is ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITOR!!!" Controlled experiments by a non-believer in "scalar waves" would have to be done on this system to prove that the extremely tiny current was the result of anything but, again, an electrolytic cell, a battery, this one much weaker than the sweaty-palm unit. For real power you can stick a zinc and a copper strip into a lemon. A few of those in series should be able to operate an efficient transistor radio with earphones. Then there's the former pride of England, the Royal Battery of Sir Humphry Davy and Michael Faraday. Comprised of two hundred zinc and copper disks with (IIRC) salt water soaked blotter paper in between, it could give one quite a jolt. Great fun at parties for the nobility. Mark From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 28 12:53:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3SJr8Mq024420; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:53:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3SJr6g6024400; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:53:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:53:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Dl2eLJYj3JolGF9kiepsaClpNGKIZfdlkJTmKXnHnP2Z9JJXLIultmRW7EAuHZvpnvKQNv8JTDozFQsTNOlbQE0jMrBOwmU2xKRBO/+UPBrqgysEudysswWPX+s+7xrPB6+7DFBUVoWGNrolocy9OUw1wnwPlbAeTem4U4W0RqU= ; X-YMail-OSG: nzGcMNEVM1mFx4bh.QVV8M_hvLDqHg7cgpAzfXcpd5Vk4on3i84nl59XZ3xgNsZFG4yhCw5V4Y5BfAPT.iP0emimkqR2JAIkoM3zvAYrOVzKFBncNex5OX_zsQzNag-- Message-ID: <4633A61F.1080901@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:53:03 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nice little demo References: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> <20070428155853.GA3610@linux> <46338AEF.6080706@pacbell.net> <20070428192510.GD3610@linux> In-Reply-To: <20070428192510.GD3610@linux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74608 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mark > This is the second video in a pair. Clicking on the "more from > this user" link brings a list with the first one: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iGEsVaIftk > > One of the comments to it says: > > "I have a NEC memory cap 5.5V 0.047F and it gives about 16mV > all the time without any magnets. Even after a long time of > shorting it builds the 16mV in 2 minutes. It is a chemical > reaction in the cap because it is ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITOR!!!" Yes. Electrolytic caps - and especially caps which are near to failure are known to operate for extended periods as chemical batteries. I'm pretty sure this was what was happening in the "Mike Motor" variant of the Bedini-Cole window motor - where he had a large (~1 F.) old electrolytic, probably nearing failure... (and no one else could duplicate it) --- --- but also would be willing to bet that a new cap would not never register in ~10 mV range. ... meaning that this begs for replication with new parts. At any rate, if I had a few hundred matched magnets and new caps - it would be interesting to see if something in the form of a stacked array would offer results which are a little more unequivocal than if a few mV or picowatts which may have shown up ... but like you, I am skeptical of that. What if it took a few thousand such cap+Neos units (with a cost of several thou$and) to get to an unequivocal microwatt? Does anyone think that the beloved prize-offering genius known as "Randi" would fork over the megabucks he has claimed to give, if such a totally impractical device did show even tiny but unequivocal OU? ... at least for Randi it would be "put up or shut up" Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 28 16:08:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3SN7bMQ017523; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:07:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3SN7XLD017448; Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:07:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:07:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c789ea$10e2cc80$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <4633537E.2020809@pacbell.net> <20070428155853.GA3610@linux> <46338AEF.6080706@pacbell.net> <20070428192510.GD3610@linux> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nice little demo Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:07:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74609 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark wrote, >For real power you can stick a zinc and a copper strip into >a lemon. A few of those in series should be able to operate >an efficient transistor radio with earphones. Howdy Mark and Jones, Just as much fun is to have an old timey dentist fill some teeth with a combo mercury metal filling along side a gold filling.. On occasion the event could pickup a radio signal. People reported they could hear music.. but..nobody would believe. Our electrical and electronics controls systems shop builds and installs switchgear and systems. A really fun experince is to troubleshoot grounding problems insider a large plant.. fun stuff and as Jones says.." the trickster" is at work. When you have every power source disconnected.. and .. put a meter on the ground and see full voltage.. make you wonder if that " trickster" is looking over your shoulder. Indian tribes in the old west had a special regard for coyotes because they are ventriliquists.. they called them " trickster coyotes". A white albino coyote.. a rare animal was extremely valuable. moreso than an albino buffalo. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 29 10:17:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3THHEmL031901; Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:17:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3THEWoJ031035; Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:14:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:14:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1mWwI/8EOLWOEHzcC2Oi+G3E3epgDrKwQeB1e1gIxTNtxCthxRbDGOGHKhU9MR7b7xtNqfX3QB1GzQQ63Phb2GF7yyj+9YuTex8nRU7HNZlpXPPR62avW8eeWgG4Sy6XAZ4gdqr+3Rml2hnVS39iPcVP6AbvbPxTIHfIQhrqLBE= ; X-YMail-OSG: O1vbd.sVM1m5QKT0a7AorG9QKUdWW46RKrhWIAKtG0CB2_ay0zotfIkVd54HaSIF_XrUD7ytwit0h64cUwXzquyDiyv.laO4WFHKeNPp5A9mObSj_jaI724pK0.XPQ-- Message-ID: <4634D274.7030806@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:14:28 -0700 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74610 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:OT: Vo & the "gift" economy Status: O X-Status: Are you familiar with the concept of the "gift economy"? You are probably an active part of it, knowingly or unknowingly. Here is a rambling regifting, sadly of little economic value. The gift economy is one of those "pregnant" insights which may itself provide a kind of 'salvation' to Western society in ways in which religion has largely failed to do. Wiki now has an entry for this once arcane concept, which entry may be a little out of focus, but decent enough to paraphrase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy Typically, a gift economy can be epitomized by various non-governmental organizations and benevolent trusts, such as the Ford Foundation etc., and is the end-result of moral indoctrination or religious teaching interacting head-on with what can best be described as a lifetime of wealth-accumulation (greed). But it can also be found in a more modern and individual form and through ongoing "random act of kindness" even when the act itself consists mostly of ... well... transitory bits of "word salad" cast out into cyberspace. And more specifically, for readers here: the "gift" is when talented individuals like Jed Rothwell and Ed Storms with LENR/CANR.org, or Horace Heffner with his brilliant insights, for instance, or Fred Sparber and many former contributors - give freely of their time and experience to promote what they consider to be be important goals to society for energy independence, and Bill Beaty, who makes the forum possible. Their sacrifices, on someone's balance sheet, may be greater in terms of personal-expenditure than old-Henry's last-minute-largess. Karma goes by many names, invented for the peace-of-mind of those who seek another chance. The gift economy happens within a free-market subculture grounded in moral dogma and expectations of some kind of continuance-mythology. The dogma emphasizes social, religious or intangible rewards for generosity: call it karma, loyalty, redemption or whatever. In previous generations, this gift has been delayed till a wealthy benefactor is near death, yet the personal model of Albert Schweitzer or Mother Theressa have been equally inspiring. Both Jews and Christians are noted for this type of monetary generosity, while Roman Catholic nuns and priests often give most in terms of personal-sacrifice. In terms of specific identifiable ethnicity, ironically: Scottish Protestants and European Jews, both groups being among the most frugal in life - are often the most generous and beneficent to society (at the expense of family and relatives) on death. But there are newer and constantly changing forms of ongoing gifts, which serve to mitigate the general failure of government and organized religion to accomplish what they should. The major difference between Communism and Capitalism is a contentious subject, amenable to superficial interpretation, especially when religion is brought into the fray. The true moral imperative encompassed within Marxism/socialism can be seen as a great embarrassment to an avowed meme-enemy- the religious-right in the USA. But the lack of true democracy or equality in Communism is an equal or greater embarrassment to the left - as is the irrepressible desire to accumulate wealth. The Limo-Liberal is now cliche, no? Mao and Stalin probably lived more extravagant lifestyles than many Wall Street Greed Merchants. In truth, religion cannot be excluded from any analysis, and no "alien" observer of world government (i.e. an objective and dispassionate viewer) would have the least bit of difficulty in seeing through the layers of dogma, and seeing the glaring crux of the enigma: i.e. that "Christian morality" is far closer on paper to Marxism than to Capitalism - i.e. in principle but not necessarily in actuality. Lest we forget (as is convenient to do in the USA) Christ did teach the value of *poverty* and sharing of wealth - not wealth accumulation, as the goal of each individual seeking salvation. This is a fact that is universally ignored in almost every American Church, regardless of denomination. Just one more impetus for change towards a NWO (new world order). BTW - there will always be a NWO on the horizon - no matter what you call it. It is part of evolution. What it will consist of however - can never be decided or predicted very far in advance (even by the Bilderberg). The recent and dramatic shift in the USA from NeoCon to NeoLib is demonstrating that now. What goes around, comes around. One solution is to institutionalize and encourage non-profit giving to an even higher level, and to transfer some government functions there - even if this involves problems with "separation of church and state". There are ways to do this if you can cut through the dogma on both sides of the argument. We have this old "great society" relic still in place: http://www.peacecorps.gov/ yup ... the Peace Corps. I'm not sure that Bush/Cheney are even aware that it is still around, since they have been favoring funding for a "War Corps" by a ratio of about a billion to one. Nice lesson there for our kids. But once we are finally able to get out of a needless and wasteful war - why not start shifting a big part of that waste from war to peace? In a 'market' economy: capitalism, the highest status belongs to those who have acquired the most wealth - and the laws tend to reflect and institutionalize this goal: (the Gordon Gekko mentality: "greed is good"). But it is easy to change slightly this focus of legal protection to only those estates and entities which are already committed to sharing and becoming an eventual active part of the gift economy. Communism, on the other hand, despite being atheistic in general, tries to institutionalize what are in effect - the teachings of Jesus as reinterpreted by Marx -- insofar as societal "needs" are to be satisfied, independent of work, and work is to be expended, independent of need, for the common good. Neither of these two solutions has been ideal. Capitalism works (to some degree by default) and Communism, which is, in effect, the same as enforced-Christianity-without-religion, fails, due more so to its clumsy implementation, perhaps, than to its idealism. Go figure. Funny - and probably doubly ironic that the only place this credo thrives today is on the Israeli Kibbutz - which denies both Marx and Christ! Enter the default solution to the moral dilemma - the Gift Economy in Capitalism. It is kind of an oxymoron like the "benevolent dictator" ... Side note: For the "benevolent dictatorship" form of government, there actually exists a convincing argument to the effect that it is superior to Democracy, due to much higher efficiency - but only when the "power corrupts" factor can be mitigated, which is extremely rare in practice, but may become less a problem in the future if a greater oversight is allowed to be provided by some form of AI - artificial intelligence.. But what is most important transactionally, is a legislatively-boosted gift economy in which the gifts must always "move" quickly. They are like "currency" and need high turnover. This marvelous idea was recently popularized by the terrific little movie (if you can tolerate an occasional dose of super-sized-sap) called "Pay it Forward," and also by that ubiquitous and even sappier bumper sticker: Commit Random Acts of Kindness & Senseless Beauty. BTW there is even a foundation for promoting this idea: http://www.actsofkindness.org/ Every gift is its own reward in a way, but that reward can be multiplied when the gift is passed along to others - like a chain reaction. And many small kindnesses are gifts. It does not require money or wealth. An inspiring story is a gift. An insightful posting is a gift (this one may be a burden due to length). Blogs are gifts (sometime). Ideas, and insights, and life-experience teachings, alternative POV and specialized counseling are all gifts. If there is one great and overlooked thing about the www as an invaluable facilitating-phenomenon to society as a whole, in the age of information -- it is in this ability: being able to quickly "regift" and rapidly disseminate the most valuable commodity at all: human insight. Jones Of course, that particular www-gift: insight - comes with the downside price - in that much of the info-flux is not very insightful at all often self-serving or even deliberate disinfo or spam ... and that is where the individual's "bogosity filter" must be always be activated and on alert! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 29 10:43:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3THgtRA007768; Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:42:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3THeFUh006720; Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:40:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:40:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:40:59 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: Vo & the "gift" economy In-reply-to: <4634D274.7030806@pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <34suBB.A.6oB.-hNNGB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74611 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Capitalism: a form of social co-operation for the sake of universal economic competition. Socialism: a form of social competition for the sake of universal economic co-operation. Harry On 29/4/2007 12:14 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > > The major difference between Communism and Capitalism is a contentious > subject, amenable to superficial interpretation, especially when > religion is brought into the fray. The true moral imperative encompassed > within Marxism/socialism can be seen as a great embarrassment to an > avowed meme-enemy- the religious-right in the USA. But the lack of true > democracy or equality in Communism is an equal or greater embarrassment > to the left - as is the irrepressible desire to accumulate wealth. The > Limo-Liberal is now cliche, no? Mao and Stalin probably lived more > extravagant lifestyles than many Wall Street Greed Merchants. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 29 14:55:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3TLtDNJ021354; Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:55:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3TLt7LD021306; Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:55:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:55:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20070429145939.029e4968@mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:01:11 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steve Krivit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74612 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:BBC Horizon Bubble fusion show Feb 15, 2005 Status: O X-Status: Anybody have a copy of this video? Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 29 15:15:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3TMFn2j001824; Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:15:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3TMFhkH001748; Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:15:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:15:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c78aac$00e90e30$c905a8c0@xptower> From: "R.C.Macaulay" To: References: <4634D274.7030806@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: Vo & the "gift" economy Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:16:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74613 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jones. Wez resemble those remarks. Pure capitalism is best described by the popular game " Monolopy" which iis designed to end with a single winner. Two things happen when the winner emerges.. he winds up with a table full of worthless paper money., everybody winds up losers, broke and the winner takes a bankruptcy to avoid having to put the game back in the box, including all the houses. Communisn is designed for all to wind up the winner.in defiance of the laws of human nature thus bringing out the worse in man. Capitalism brings out both the worse and best. All of which proves that man is not mentally designed to be governed. The parable of the "Good Samaritan" holds a wisdom for those so inclined to pursue charity.. (paraphrased for new California lifestyles).. Regular traveler driving his Hummer down the Jericho freeway spots a person laying on the embankment.. stops, looks and notices the person has been beatened and robbed and.. in need of help..He loads the injured and takes him to the Holiday Inn, Jericho. Recognizing the traveler, the desk clerk accepts the traveler's Visa card and asks how many nights stay. The traveler studies the injured man and figures a couple nights sleep and food ought do it.. and tells the clerk if it takes a couple days longer , bill my card. The desk clerk is not in the business of charity so when the injured man has been treated, fed, rested and up.. out the door he goes.. Definitely not your Katrina storm victim treatment theology but the tale does capture the essense of the correct rebuking of "do gooders" that insist we must take on the woes of the world when commom sense states the poor will always be with us if for no other reason than the price of dope in Berkeley. God works in spite of religion and FEMA. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 30 12:09:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l3UJ9ULa027132; Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:09:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id l3UJ9RLE027108; Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:09:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:09:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=ZFdMSlCkb7QaJDMb3uIvgUZD5gswgYCrTpXM2uv7jhCElnt7HaQr3joo2qFNJk8mB/eE7qa3eFfEyN/Ll7jujZ3p31DdGxMpyV7vgd7hkMxEd6JHij61lst4XXQrOcCbdvYcllaQfWMQTta+KH/zzTU7sAXyhdXXTZ9appx/uuc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=mK7kUref092iHWMG6RgK7oPvKM/qvJjcURXEwZHN51qUqek910mbzErMr+cW3uykeqTwCUZowASm7CQhsezZiv3dUN/fGVq2Xyh4HrmDslOsp5JiNBObdLZl/zRjoInW6iund+XO+uFN31KDKQdYcTs2f31nzgdZzU9thWCPhhs= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:09:22 -0400 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/74614 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Cavitation Weapon Status: O X-Status: United States Patent 7,206,257 Meng April 17, 2007 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acoustic remote caviation as a destruction device Abstract A method is disclosed of generating a predetermined field of cavitation around a remote target in an underwater environment. The method includes the steps of identifying a remote target location, generating at least two acoustic beams, each at a high power output, from an underwater acoustic source, and controlling the generated acoustic beams to intersect with each other at the remote target location and thereby create a destructive cavitation field at the intersection of the beams. The acoustic source and target can be located in unconfined underwater space and at a distance of at least 100 m apart.